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2019-03-15

An Interview with John Collins on Branhamism and Abuse (Part Two)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 19.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fifteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: March 15, 2019

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 5,120

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

John Collins is an Author, and the Webmaster of Seek The Truth. He discusses: severe forms of abuse in the William Marrion Branham “The Message” community; the different abuse tactics used on men and women to keep them in line; the social control tactics; the lack of critical thinking and critical theology in the “The Message” church of the late William Marrion Branham; and the tragic cases of abuse, and heartwarming ones of those who got out.

Keywords: author, Christianity, faith healing, John Collins, Seek The Truth, The Message, webmaster, William Marrion Branham.

An Interview with John Collins on Branhamism and Abuse (Part Two)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: If we are looking at the severe forms of abuse, what are the main ones within community to keep members in line?

John Collins: This is a difficult question to adequately summarize in one single conversation. The “Message” cult following of William Branham has repeatedly evolved and branched after multiple iterations of core doctrine, creating very different sects in multiple regions of multiple countries around the world, and each sect created from each branch in each region of each country has varying levels of abuse. It would be like asking which forms of abuse have been used in the Catholic Church in the past seventy-five years; even with the recent allegations and convictions of abuse in the Catholic Church, each instance of abuse cannot represent the Catholic community as a whole and the sum of all abuse cannot represent the views of the religion. Yet the abuse exists, and in many cases, the predators are protected and will abuse again.

In the United States, the most extreme example of abuse in the “Message” that has been documented happened at a cult commune in Prescott, Arizona, that William Branham called “Goshen” (Referring to the land given to the Hebrews by the Biblical pharaoh of Joseph).[i] Members of the commune ranging in ages from children to adult were emotionally, physically, and sexually abused as a means to control the group.[ii] Leaders of the commune would ostracize people from the community and separate families. Children were forced to march around the compound military-style and were physically beaten if they fell out of line. Some children were sexually abused by Branham’s close associate Leo Mercer, others burned with fire so they would “know what hell felt like”. Parents were instructed to perform acts of abuse upon children or each other, while leaders of the commune acted as a “witness” to emotional, physical, and sexual abuse. The problem was so widespread that the courts were forced to delicately question cult members in areas of sexual and physical abuse, incest, and homosexuality.

Undeniably, the worst documented cases of abuse happened at Colonia Dignidad in the Maule Region of Chile under the leadership of “Message” pastor Paul Shaefer.[iii] Shaefer preached against “sins of the flesh”, often segregated men and women, and practiced enforced celibacy as religious atonement. Those who did not comply were brutally beaten.[iv] Members of the commune were monitored by armed guard in a military-style compound. After a child escaped and alerted authorities, an investigation led government officials to secret underground chambers where cult members were tortured by electric shock.[v]

When asked about abuse as a means to control, former members of the “Message” have different opinions. Many who experienced abuse have the opinion that their abusers were not aligned with the views of other members of the “Message”, and though abusive to enforce cult doctrine, should be excluded. Others argue that in many cases, leaders of the cult protected and enabled their abusers. Since William Branham himself praised physical abuse[vi], members of the cult often turn a blind eye to predators in positions ranging from leaders[vii] to lay members. Only in the cases where a “Message” cult pastor is exposed after having brainwashed and raped women of the church[viii] under the guise of “spiritual husbandry”[ix] is the abuse as a means to control beyond question.

At the same time, many former members overlook the more obvious forms of abuse. Having spent years and sometimes decades suffering through emotional abuse from figures in authority, they become so familiar with its effects that patterns of abuse turn into a normal part of life. It is not uncommon for members to be persuaded to ostracize friends or family members who question cult doctrine, or to be emasculated from the pulpit for not adhering to cult rules. Often, this persuasion is reinforced using Branham’s praise of corporal punishment for women and children. When it is put into action in the homes of parishioners, emotional abuse is followed by physical and even sexual. Branham praised those who brutally beat unclothed victims to the point of swelling and mutilation of skin[x], and the worst cases of abuse involve stripping females and both shaming and severely beating them.[xi] [xii]

Though the nature and severity of the abuse widely differs between cult churches, there appears to be a common theme. Former members who attended churches led by elders who used Branham’s statements to support emotional and physical abuse seem to have noticed more victims than those who attended churches that avoided those statements. Said one former “Message” member: “Most kids I know including myself were physically abused, all in the name of ‘spare the rod and spoil the child’ (A statement Branham frequently made in his sermons to support corporal punishment). Interestingly, similar patters appear in testimony from former members who attended “home church” – gathering in homes to listen to Branham’s recorded sermons from 1947-1965 – or who frequently listened to those recordings during the week between services. In a majority of cases described by former members, the abuse was designed to enforce cult rules and doctrine.

2. Jacobsen: How do these tactics differ for men and women? 

Collins: Any strategy used to manipulate or control members of a cult that differ between genders is directly related to the way in which gender roles are defined. This is true whether we are discussing William Branham’s “Message” cult based on Pentecostalism, Warren Jeff’s FLDS cult based on Mormonism, or any other religious cult displaying obvious differences in gender roles. The difference in tactics becomes more noticeable in religious groups whose definition of gender roles differs from society, especially when the cult’s definition of gender roles is based upon cult doctrine.

Gender roles in the “Message” have been defined very similarly to that of Christian Fundamentalism during the 1940’s, 50’s, and 60’s. William Branham encouraged the men to be the sole provider for the family unit, the women to be the family cook[xiii], and preached heavily against women who had any ambitions of a career.[xiv] Men are permitted to vote on political decisions, while women are strictly forbidden.[xv] Men keep up with current fashions, for the most part, while women are not allowed.[xvi]

Men are publicly shamed from the pulpit to enforce the control of their spouse,[xvii] inciting men to punish wives who do not adhere to the rules while denigrating women by insinuating they are property to be controlled. If wives disobey cult rules, Branham instructed men to beat them with boards.[xviii] Those who follow Branham’s advice begin a pattern of emotional and physical abuse that in many cases becomes more brutal over time.” [xix]

Many doctrinal teachings in the “Message are specifically designed to manipulate women through emotional abuse. Branham taught his followers to believe that the female part of the human race was designed by Satan, and that Satan was still making adjustments to the design.[xx] He taught that women were designed specifically to deceive, by her beauty, and that the female human was designed to have less morals than females of all other animals.[xxi] According to Branham, women would eventually be the cause of the destruction of the United States.[xxii] Women are emotionally manipulated to suppress their natural desire to be beautiful, to learn, to achieve, and to succeed. This suppression of thoughts, feelings, emotions, and ambition is so painful that it pushes some women into depression and suicidal thoughts.[xxiii]

3. Jacobsen: Why do these social control tactics differ in these ways?

Collins: The methods used to manipulate, influence, and control members of any religious cult differs between gender roles, especially within cults that originated before the Women’s Rights movement of the 1960’s having doctrine opposed to change. Outside a destructive cult, the lines separating gender roles have shifted significantly over the past fifty years. In cults based on Christian Fundamentalism of the United States, these lines do not move at the same pace, and sometimes not at all.

In the “Message” cult following of William Branham, the core teaching has been preserved through time by audio sermons recorded prior to Branham’s death in 1965. Though some sects of the cult have deviated from the core doctrine, a majority continue to preach and practice the views and opinions of a Christian Fundamentalist preacher fighting against the rapid pace of change in the 1940’s, 50’s, and 60’s. These recordings, without the central figure, have immortalized the cult leader, and the recordings themselves have become the central figure of the cult. As a result, the fight against change continues – even though the “change” has already taken place – and far more difficult to enforce or even fully understand in modern culture.

Many churches that follow Branham’s teachings consider William Branham to be their “pastor”…

…listen to the recordings, and replay Branham’s fight against cultural change every Wednesday and twice on Sunday. Those who do not play the tapes structure their sermons to match Branham’s agenda from the recordings, continuing the battle against gender equality[xxiv] and Civil Rights.[xxv] The typical sermon in a “Message” cult church will contain many references to the recordings, using direct quotes from William Branham to express Branham’s misogynistic views, and use similar patterns of emotional abuse to further enforce the cult’s views.

According to Branham, women were specifically designed by Satan for sex:

“But she is designed to be a sex act, and no other animal is designed like that. No other creature on the earth is designed like that.”

– Branham, 1965, Feb 21. “Marriage and Divorce”

Under Branham’s doctrinal teaching, men are trained to believe that women were a “only a scrap”, made to deceive the men:

“Only a piece, scrap, made of a man, to deceive him by; God made it, right here has proved it. That’s what she was made for.”

– Branham, 1965, Feb 21. “Marriage and Divorce”

Some cult pastors claim that these doctrines only apply to women who do not adhere to the cult’s female dress code, carefully avoiding some of Branham’s statements about the Creation Story. But when combined with Branham’s statements supporting or promoting the physical abuse of women and children, it is a recipe for disaster.

4. Jacobsen: How does the lack of internal support for critical thinking and, in fact, critical theology provide a ripe basis for the members of the community to be taken advantage of, throughout life?

Collins: The most unusual conversation I’ve had with a “Message” believer was when I began identifying several newspaper articles confirming William Branham’s 1907 birth year. One of the core beliefs in the “Message” was that the year 1909 was “spiritually significant”, and that the stars and planets aligned to announce William Branham’s birth. William Branham often described how the year 1909 was spiritually significant, and the majority of cult followers celebrate his birthdate as April 6, 1909.[xxvi] This was the date Branham used on the marriage license to his second wife, Meda.[xxvii]

Yet according to the 1920 Census[xxviii], William Branham’s parents listed his age as 12, placing his birth year in 1907, and newspaper articles I found confirmed the dates listed in the 1920 Census.[xxix] As it turned out, William Branham also used the year 1907 as a “supernatural sign” while speaking to the followers of deceased cult leader John Alexander Dowie in Zion City, IL.[xxx] Making matters even more confusing, William Branham listed his birth year as 1908 on his marriage license to his first wife, Hope.[xxxi]

To the follower of William Branham, I said, “William Branham could not have been born in all three years, 1907, 1908, and 1909. And if 1907 was ‘supernaturally’ significant because of his birth, then 1909 could not be ‘supernaturally’ significant because of his birth.”

His response surprised me: “I don’t understand it, brother, but I believe every word the ‘prophet’ spoke”.

When followers are manipulated into disabling critical thought, they open the door to critical problems. Not only are they allowing themselves to be influenced into believing things they would not ordinarily believe, they are allowing themselves to be persuaded into doing things they would not ordinarily do. While some might argue that abusive personalities would have abused other members of the cult without the emotional abuse Branham used in his sermons or the statements that he made promoting emotional and physical abuse, disabling critical examination of the sermons while giving ultimate authority to Branham’s words turns every statement into an order or action that must be carried out. It is how those orders are carried out that can be debated by members, and unfortunately, the abusive personalities carry them out in literal form. In the extreme cases, they have been combined with Branham’s misogynistic statements and have resulted in sexual abuse.

The problem, of course, is that this danger does not end after escaping the cult. Many escape Branham’s “leadership”, seeking to replace him with another “leader”, and find themselves trading one cult for another. Others, unaware that manipulative personalities exist in all walks of life, find themselves taken advantage of at home, in the workplace, on the streets, or even in new churches by other members. Though the non-cult situations are far less extreme, they could have been prevented simply by applying critical thought.

5. Jacobsen: What have been some – without names – more tragic cases of those who were hurt within community? What are some more heartening ones where people got out and started healthy lives outside of the myopic worldview of the purported “Message”?

Collins: For many years, current and former members of the “Message” were largely unaware of the abuse that existed in the cult. There were rumors, obviously, that spread whenever an elder or leader of a cult church stepped down due to sexual misconduct, but for the most part, leaders of the “Message” have been largely successful in suppressing information regarding abuse.

Beyond the horrific cases I’ve already mentioned, the abuse is seldom talked about even by former members. Victims who speak out are often further victimized, and some of them have reconciled with their predators or abusers. To speak out would be to re-open wounds that are in the process of healing and expose others whose victims believe the abuse has ended. The predators and abusers were also victims of the cult, manipulated in ways that are difficult for anyone to understand, and some former members have sympathy for both the abuser and the abused.

It wasn’t until recently that former members began speaking publicly about their abuse in the “Message” cult. A former member with a passion to help the victims setup a website, Casting Pearls Project (http://castingpearlsproject.com), and began publishing testimonies by former members who had escaped the abuse and reclaimed their lives. This led to several others stepping forward, both publicly and in private, allowing those outside the cult to catch a personal glimpse into what it was like to be an abused female in the “Message”.

On the website, there are stories describing nine-year-old girls that were psychologically, physically, and sexually abused for years.[xxxii] Multiple women were often forced to strip their clothes off to be shamed or molested while fully nude.[xxxiii] Some were brutalized while nude, one of which was beaten with a Louisville Slugger baseball bat.[xxxiv] In one case, a child was murdered by a sexual predator whose crimes had been covered up.[xxxv] The testimonies given by former members are horrific. It would be impossible to rate them as to which are less tragic, and which are more. Each victim, each form of abuse, carries just as much weight when one former member reaches out to help another. For them, their pain was the worst.

The beauty of the Casting Pearls Project is that there are happy new beginnings. Each person will carry a burden for a lifetime but have been able to start healthy lives. One is an author who is actively helping other victims as a volunteer speaker in the Arizona Department of Corrections for the Impact of Crime on its Victims Classes (ICVC), discussing the murder of children, the impact of child abuse on children, and the impact of domestic violence on women.[xxxvi] Women, who were trained from birth to believe that women should not enter the workforce, have started successful careers.[xxxvii] Some have found new and healthy churches to attend,[xxxviii] while others will never trust religion again.[xxxix]

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Author; Webmaster, Seek The Truth.

[2] Individual Publication Date: March 15, 2019: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/collins-two; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[i] Branham, William. 1964, May 31. The Oddball. “And to come here this morning and look, this fine little Jerusalem setting out here, little, what I called, it Goshen, I believe, when we come over this morning. Remember, Goshen was one of the places that they worshipped, one of the first places the tent was pitched.”

[ii] People vs Keith Thomas Loker. 44 CAL. 4TH 691, 188 P.3D 580, 80 CAL. RPTR. 3D 630. Accessed 2019, Feb 26 from https://scocal.stanford.edu/opinion/people-v-loker-33137#opinion

[iii] Ellrodt, Oliver. Brown, Stephen. Insight: German sect victims seek escape from Chilean nightmare past. “Schaefer followed the teachings of American preacher William M. Branham, one of the founders of the “faith healing” movement in the 1940s and ‘50s. Born in a log cabin in Kentucky, Branham said he had been visited by angels and attracted tens of thousands of followers with sermons that advocated a strict adherence to the Bible, a woman’s duty to obey her husband and apocalyptic visions, such as Los Angeles sinking beneath the ocean.” Accessed 2019, Feb 26 from https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-chile-sect-idUSBRE8480MN20120509

[iv] Ellrodt, Brown. “Former members of the sect say that Schaefer preached against “sins of the flesh.” He also segregated men and women, they say, subjecting all but a few to enforced celibacy. Anyone who disobeyed was brutally punished, often by Schaefer personally.”

[v] Collns, John. Colonia Dignidad and Jonestown. Accessed 2019, Feb 26 from https://jonestown.sdsu.edu/?page_id=67352

[vi] Example: Branham, William. 1958, Mar 24. Hear Ye Him. “Now, you can take some of these little two-by-fours if you want to, but that’s what God said. That’s what Christ said. Now, that’s the truth. Oh, God be merciful. What must the great Holy Spirit think when He comes before the Father? You say, “Why you picking on us women?” All right, men, here you are. Any man that’ll let his wife smoke cigarettes and wear them kind of clothes, shows what he’s made out of. He’s not very much of a man. That’s exactly right. True. He don’t love her or he’d take a board and blister her with it.” Accessed 2019, Feb 26 from http://seekyethetruth.com/Branham/resources-deep-abuse.aspx

[vii] G. Sarah. Brain Hurt. “It was very difficult as well to attend a church when you knew the pastor had been convicted of sexually molesting a young girl. He went to prison, yet, when he was released he didn’t want to give up his church. If that wasn’t bad enough, just a few years later, this same man was caught in another country with a prostitute in his hotel room shower. Still to this day he has a church following.” Accessed 2019, Feb 26 from https://castingpearlsproject.com/brain-hurt

[viii] Example: Chikafa-Chipiro, Rosemary. Discoursing women, Christianity and security: The framing of women in the Gumbura case in Zimbabwean media. Accessed 2019, Feb 26 from https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/kMIYBeS8G7jwRU5CEbdz/full

[ix] William Branham Pastor Convicted of Rape and Pornography. Accessed 2019, Feb 26 from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq0NYcrl94o

[x] Branham, William. 1956, July 28. Making the Valley Full of Ditches. “She’d beat her till she’d be so full of welts, you couldn’t get the clothes over the top of them. That’s what needs to be done tonight.”

[xi] Example: A. Anna-Lisa. Turning Pain Into Power. “The abuse included the most degrading forms of humiliation. I was locked in a basement cellar for hours or even days, naked, with no food. I was forced to walk around my home completing chores, not a stitch of clothing on my body. I was coerced into performing various exercise routines, naked, my parents laughing while they picked apart and ridiculed my body. My legs were scarred from where my mother grabbed me and dug her nails into me. Handprints and nail marks were left on my face after being slapped or pinched on the nose and drug wherever I was wanted. Punishments also included beatings with a belt and a Louisville Slugger, the resulting welts impossible to describe.” Accessed 2019, Feb 26 from https://castingpearlsproject.com/turning-pain-into-power.

[xii] Example: Layton, Martha. Psalm 147:3. “We started listening to Message tapes. I believe the Message pushed him over the edge. I was beaten, thrown out naked into the streets, choked, and almost killed.” Accessed 2019, Feb 26 from https://castingpearlsproject.com/psalm-147%3A3

[xiii] Branham, William. 1956, Oct 3. Painted-Face Jezebel. “listen, sister dear, God made you for one place, the kitchen. When you get out of there, you’re out of His will. Remember that. Women was made to be a helpmate at the house. She never was made for office work. And it’s caused more disgrace and divorces and things.”

[xiv] Branham, William. 1957, Oct 6. Questions and Answers on Hebrews #3. “Our nation has come so little until they’ve even taken the jobs away from the man, and put women out here in these places, till ninety percent of them, nearly, are prostitutes. And talk about men being gone, sure, it’s because they got women out there in their jobs. And they got so low-down till they put women as peace officers on the street. That’s a disgrace to any nation!”

[xv] Branham, William. 1960, Nov 13. Condemnation by Representation. “It shall also…has been an evil thing done in this country, they have permitted women to vote. This is a woman’s nation, and she will pollute this nation as Eve did Eden.”

[xvi] Branham, William. 1960, Feb 21. Hearing, Recognizing, Acting on the Word of God. “Morals, there’s no moral to it no more. Women, dressing evil; come through television, all kinds of impersonations of evil people of Hollywood, all kinds of stuff, fashions.”

[xvii] Example: Branham, William. 1954, May 9. The Invasion of the United States. “You say, “Well, the women.” Yes, and you men that’ll permit your wives to do that, that shows what you’re made out of.”

[xviii] Branham, William. 1958, Mar 24. Hear Ye Him. “All right, men, here you are. Any man that’ll let his wife smoke cigarettes and wear them kind of clothes, shows what he’s made out of. He’s not very much of a man. That’s exactly right. True. He don’t love her or he’d take a board and blister her with it.”

[xix] Example: Lefler, Joyce A. From Miracle to Murder. Accessed 2019, Feb 27 from https://castingpearlsproject.com/from-miracle-to-murder

[xx] Branham, William. 1965, Feb 21. Marriage and Divorce. “But in the human race, it’s the woman that’s pretty, not the man; if he is, there is something wrong, there is crossed-up seed somewhere. Originally it’s that way. Why, why was it done? To deceive by. Her designer, Satan, is still working on her, too, in these last days.”

[xxi] Branham, William. 1965, Feb 21. Marriage and Divorce. “Notice, there is nothing designed to stoop so low, or be filthy, but a woman. A dog can’t do it, a hog can’t do it, a bird can’t do it. No animal is immoral, nor it can be, for it is not designed so it can be. A female hog can’t be immoral, a female dog can’t be immoral, a female bird can’t be immoral. A woman is the only thing can do it. 116 Now you see where Satan went?”

[xxii] Branham, William. 1960, Nov 13. Condemnation by Representation. “Women, given the right to vote, elected President-elect Kennedy, was the woman’s vote, the wrong man; which will finally lead to full control, of the Catholic church, in United States. Then the bomb comes that explodes her.”

[xxiii] Example: H, Jennifer. Unwanted. Accessed 2019, Feb 27 from https://castingpearlsproject.com/unwanted

[xxiv] Branham, William. 1965, Feb 21. Marriage and Divorce. “Only a piece, scrap, made of a man, to deceive him by; God made it, right here has proved it. That’s what she was made for.”

[xxv] Example discussing Integration: Branham, William. 1963, Jun 28. O Lord, Just Once More. “He makes white man, black man, red man. We should never cross that up. It becomes a hybrid. And anything hybrid cannot re-breed itself. You are ruining the race of people. There is some things about a colored man that a white man don’t even possess them traits. A white man is always stewing and worrying; a colored man is satisfied in the state he is in, so they don’t need those things.”

[xxvi] A Special Day. Accessed 2019, Feb 26 from https://branham.org/en/articles/442017_ASpecialDay

[xxvii] 1941, Oct 23. Marriage License: William Branham and Meda Broy

[xxviii] 1920, Jan 20. Fourteenth Census of the United States.

[xxix] Example confirming William Branham’s age on the 1920 Census: 1924, Jun Mar 21. Hospital Bill Rendered. Courier Journal. “William Branham, 16 years old”

[xxx] Branham, William. 1951, Sept 29. Our Hope is in God. “How Doctor Dowie, in his death, prophesied that I would come to that city forty years from the time that he died. Not knowing nothing about it, he died on one day, and I was borned on the next. And forty years to the day I entered the city, not knowing nothing about it.”

[xxxi] 1934, June 22. Marriage License: William Branham and Hope Brumbach

[xxxii] Lefler, Joyce A. From Miracle to Murder. “No one listened to me while my ex-husband psychologically, physically, and sexually abused her over the years that followed.” Accessed 2019, Feb 27 from https://castingpearlsproject.com/from-miracle-to-murder

[xxxiii] Example: Layton, Martha. Psalm 147:3. “He told us that God had a special message for us. He told us that God wanted us to get naked and pray in a circle together. We proceeded to strip off our clothes and then the lights were turned out. I know I was only four, but I felt a sense of embarrassment having to strip off in front of my dad and brother. As we begin to pray my brother decided to touch me sexually for the very first time.”

[xxxiv] Example: A. Anna-Lisa. Turning Pain into Power. “I was coerced into performing various exercise routines, naked, my parents laughing while they picked apart and ridiculed my body. My legs were scarred from where my mother grabbed me and dug her nails into me. Handprints and nail marks were left on my face after being slapped or pinched on the nose and drug wherever I was wanted. Punishments also included beatings with a belt and a Louisville Slugger, the resulting welts impossible to describe.” Accessed 2019, Feb 26 from https://castingpearlsproject.com/turning-pain-into-power.

[xxxv] Lefler, Joyce A. From Miracle to Murder. “Thanks to two police detectives and a state prosecutor, Adam’s case was finally solved. It was discovered that the coroner had been wrong in the timing and cause of Adam’s death. If there had been a thorough investigation in 1983, the year Adam died, it would have been discovered that Eugene, the babysitter, had a history of domestic violence and vile behavior towards children. He abused his first wife and tried to strangle and sexually molest their son. Eugene sexually molested his second wife’s daughter from her first marriage and then sexually molested the two daughters they had together. Maybe Eugene’s family was aware of his history but didn’t inform me. I was an easy target. The “Message” hadn’t prepared me to think or speak for myself or to question authority.” Accessed 2019, Feb 27 from https://castingpearlsproject.com/from-miracle-to-murder

[xxxvi] Lefler, Joyce A

[xxxvii] Example: A. Anna-Lisa. Turning Pain Into Power. “Fast forward 8 years later: I am 29 and absolutely the most confident I have ever been. I am a single mother with a career that is taking off and will take me places I NEVER imagined I deserved.” Accessed 2019, Feb 26 from https://castingpearlsproject.com/turning-pain-into-power.

[xxxviii] Example: Jennifer H. Unwaned. “After leaving the Message, my husband and I joined a church that was the opposite of the Message. Here we found sound Biblical doctrine, love, and the Celebrate Recovery program.” Accessed 2019, Feb 26 from https://castingpearlsproject.com/unwanted

[xxxix] Example: Christine H. Breaking the Chains. “I will NEVER trust a religion again. I now rely only on a true God that loves me unconditionally. Broken and scarred, I am still worthy!” Accessed 2019, Feb 26 from https://castingpearlsproject.com/breaking-the-chains

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with John Collins on Branhamism and Abuse (Part Two) [Online].March 2019; 19(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/collins-two.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2019, March 15). An Interview with John Collins on Branhamism and Abuse (Part Two). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/collins-two.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with John Collins on Branhamism and Abuse (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 19.A, March. 2019. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/collins-two>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with John Collins on Branhamism and Abuse (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 19.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/collins-two.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with John Collins on Branhamism and Abuse (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 19.A (March 2019). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/collins-two.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2019, ‘An Interview with John Collins on Branhamism and Abuse (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 19.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/collins-two>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2019, ‘An Interview with John Collins on Branhamism and Abuse (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 19.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/collins-two.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with John Collins on Branhamism and Abuse (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 19.A (2018):March. 2019. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/collins-two>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with John Collins on Branhamism and Abuse (Part Two) [Internet]. (2019, March 19(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/collins-two.

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2019-03-12

Ask Dr. Faizal 1 — Trinity and Tawheed, and How It is Possible to Have a Theological Reconciliation Between Christianity and Islam

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee: Dr. Mir Faizal

Numbering: Issue 2: Here We Go

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: Question Time

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: March 12, 2019

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 6,456

Keywords: Christianity, Islam, Mir Faizal, Scott Douglas Jacobsen.

Professor Mir Faizal is an Adjunct Professor in Physics and Astronomy at the University of Lethbridge. Here we talk about theology in an educational and exploratory series.

Christianity and Islam together form about half of the world’s population. There have been centuries on the conflict between them. This conflict has both political and religious dimensions. It is important to resolve the religious conflict, to help resolve the political conflict.

The difficulty here is that many concepts in Christianity on one hand, and Islam and Judaism on the other, seem so different, that it becomes had to imagine a way to reconcile them. This event starts from the concept of Trinity in Christianity, and Tawheed in Islam. In this discussion, with Dr. Mir Faizal, he will argue that these concepts can be reconciled, if they are properly understood.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: The central point of religious conflict between Christianity on one side, and Judaism and Islam on the other is the doctrine of Trinity.

The problem here is that even many Christians do not understand Trinity, so before we can resolve this, can you tell us why do you think Trinity is difficult to understand, and is there a way in which it can be understood?

Dr. Mir Faizal: I think the doctrine of Trinity is not understood properly, as a lot of different concepts are put together and called the Trinity. If those concepts are understood separately, and the relation between them is also understood, this concept can be understood better.

I would call them as Biblical Trinity, Spiritual Trinity, Theological Trinity, and Linguistic Trinity. To start to analyze trinity, we need to differentiate between these concepts and the relation between each them.

Jacobsen: What is the Biblical Trinity? Are there Biblical expressions for the Trinity?

Faizal: The Bible states in John 1:1, “In the beginning, was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” John 1:14, “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” Now, this is a spiritual sentence, which can be understood experientially.

It says something very interesting. It first differentiates between the Word of God and God, and then equates them. This is rather a deep expression, which can lead to a deeper understanding of how God can be approached.

To understand this first let us shift the context. Let us analyze another example. Let us say, we want to express something, like the constitution of America is what America is based on, and it summarizes the thoughts of the founding fathers of America.

Furthermore, this spirit of the constitution was actualized in the form of Abraham Lincoln. A nice way to put it would be as “In the beginning was the constitution, and the constitution was with the founding fathers, and the constitution was the founding fathers. And the constitution was made flesh, and dwelt among us (as Abraham Lincoln).’’

This sentence summarizes this idea in a deeper way than just saying Abraham Lincoln followed the constitution. It may be noted that now Abraham Lincoln can be called, as the founding fathers, son of the founding father, servant of the founding father, the word of founding fathers made flesh. All those expressions are correct.

Now, Jesus is called the Word of God in John 1:14, as son of God in John 3:16 as the servant of God in Acts 3:13 and as God indirectly (as he is the Word of God, and the Word of God is called God) in John 1:1. If understood properly, there is no contradiction between Acts 3:13 “The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus” and John 1:1.

All these statements are correct in their own right, if understood properly. A debate on how Lincoln can be a founder father, and a servant of founding fathers, seems to miss the main point, and is rather shallow. It is like if a person follows the will of another so perfectly, he can become like an image of the other person in the mirror.

This is what the Bible is basically stating about Jesus. John 6: 38, “For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.” Humans were made in the image of God, but they destroyed that image by sin. However, according to Christianity, Jesus is the only sinless person, so the only perfect image of God.

This means, he can be called as God, son of God, servant of God, or Word of God, and none of this title contradicts each other if they are understood in a deeper spiritual way. But the title which is least subject to misunderstanding is the Word of God, and that is why John starts with it. Word of any person is an expression of that person.

The Word of God revealed to prophets, but this word found practical manifestation in the form of Jesus. So he becomes a living Word of God. For example, God wants us to love each other; this was revealed to prophets in the old testament.

Now Jesus became a perfect expression of this love, and thus the Word was made flesh. The written words of revelation found practical expression in the life of Jesus. From a biblical perspective, it would seem meaningless to argue if Jesus is God or not, as that would miss the deeper spiritual point being made here.

It would be like arguing if Lincoln is a founding father or not. There seems to be more emphasis on words used than the meaning of those words. It does not matter, which words are used, as long as it is conveyed that Jesus is the Word of God, a perfect image of the will of God on earth.

Apart from the Word of God getting manifested in the form of a human, there is also a concept of experience of God. Here again, the experience of God is not separate from God, and not identical to God. This is nicely summarized by in John 1:14, “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”

It may be noted that the experience of the Holy Spirit is called Shekhinah in Jewish, which is related to the word Sakinah in Islam. It can be argued that any word religion is based on three concepts, a source of truth, expression of that source, and experience of that source.

This is in Christianity God the Father, Word of God, and Spirit of God. The kind of trinity that the Bible discusses, is not special to Christianity but seems to be common to most religions of the word.

Jacobsen: What is the Spiritual Trinity? Is it related to the Biblical Trinity?

Faizal: Now the expression of Trinity in the Bible can lead to a spiritual realization and relation with God. This can be called as the Spiritual Trinity. When it is realized that Jesus is the expression of Word of God in human form, the best realization of the will of God, then the way to get closer to God, would be to imitate the example of Jesus.

John 17:21, “That all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.” Coming back to the example of the mirror, if you cannot see the source but only the image in a mirror, and you want to be close to the source, then the best you can do is to be close to the image of the source in the mirror.

This way you can become an image of the image of the source. This means by becoming the image of Jesus, you can also become an indirect Word of God. This is why followers of Jesus can be called as adopted children of God.

Jacobsen: What is the Theological Trinity? Is it how Theologians understand the Trinity?

Faizal: It should first be realized that the main biblical idea that Jesus is the Word of God, is not rejected by any Christian sect including Unitarians. Also in Christianity, the body and soul of Jesus is created in time, but it is like a vessel carrying the Word of God.

Just like the flames, which Moses saw on the mount Mount Sinai, where created but expressed the Word of God, the body and soul of Jesus is created and carries the Word of God. The main difference between theological Trinitarians and theological Unitarian churches is on the issue of the eternity of this Word of God.

According to Unitarians, the Word of God is created and according to Trinitarians, both the Word of God and Spirit of God are not created temporally. It may be noted that God still causally precedes them, but just not temporally.

However, it is important to realize that even though this can be motivated from the Bible, as one of its interpretations, it is not directly related to either the Biblical Trinity, or spiritual experience of the Trinity. It is rather a philosophical statement about the eternity of the Word of God. So theologically trinity is just an assertion that the Word of God is not created in time.

It may be noted that in the first council of Nicaea in 325, the following words were included in the creed: “But those who say: ‘There was a time when he was not;’ and ‘He was not before he was made;’ and ‘He was made out of nothing,’ or ‘He is of another substance’ or ‘essence,’ or ‘The Son of God is created,’ or ‘changeable,’ or ‘alterable’ — they are condemned by the holy catholic and apostolic Church.’’

These words were later left out in the first council of Constantinople in 381. But these words make it very clear that the main reason to formulate this creed, was a debate on the eternity of the Word of God. Such a debate on the eternity of Word of God also exists in Islam, with the only difference that Word of God becomes the Quran in Islam, as it becomes Christ in Christianity.

Here Sunnis take a Trinitarians like the view that the Word of God is eternal, and Shias take a Unitarian like the view that the Word of God is created in time. Even in Judaism, the Word of God is expressed to Moses through the burning bush. So Christ in Christianity, is exactly like the burning bush in Judaism, and Quran in Islam.

Jacobsen: How do these Theologians Linguistically define the Trinity? Is that what you mean by the Linguistic Trinity?

Faizal: As the early church developed out of a debate on the eternity of Word of God, language was chosen to make this point clear and unambiguous. This was done by using the word “God’’ for God the creator of heavens and earth, the Word of God and the Spirit of God.

To distinguish between the creator of heavens and earth from his Word and Spirit, the creator of heavens and earth was called God the Father. However, in common language, the word ‘God’ referees to only the creator of heavens and earth.

This is the main source of confusion in understanding Christian theology. As in Christianity, the theological use of the word ‘God’ is different from the common use of the word ‘God’. In common language the word ‘God’ only referees to ‘God the Father’, of Christian theology. In Christian theology, the statement “Jesus is God,” basically means that Jesus is the Word of God, and the Word of God is not created in time but it is eternal.

However, this statement is often misunderstood, as the word ‘God’ in common language only referees to the created of heavens and earth, or God the Father. It is important for Christians to understand this difference between the theological language and common language to understand the theological Trinity.

The interesting thing here is that unlike theological trinity, the biblical trinity, is not a statement about philosophy, but a spiritual statement that can improve a person’s relation with God.

It is also interesting to note that in the Bible such fluidity in the use of language seemed to be allowed by Jesus himself. John 10:34,35,36, “Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’? If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came — and Scripture cannot be set aside — what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

Here Jesus seems to argue that the language can be used in a flexible way, and the word ‘god’ can be used for others than the God the Father, who created heavens and earth. He basically argues that if people who were given the Word of God can be called gods, then the one who is a manifestation of that Word of God can be called the son of God.

The real important thing to understand here is the main difference between theological and common use of the word ‘God’. In common use the word ‘God’ referees to the creator of heavens and earth, who is called God the Father in theological language.

In theological language, the word ‘God’ referees to all those who are not created in time, and are eternal, and so includes ‘the common notion of God’ along with his Word and Spirit.

Jacobsen: There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding of the Trinity. Many Christians do not see the Trinity this way. How would you describe the common misunderstandings of Trinity?

Faizal: Now we come to the common ways Trinity is misunderstood, and the spiritual problems it creates. I would say that the Trinity is usually misunderstood as either modalism or tritheism. Now, this is not done at a linguistic level, but a physiological and spiritual level. So, I would say that spiritual modalism and spiritual tritheism are the most common misunderstandings of the Trinity.

Jacobsen: What is Spiritual Modalism?

Faizal: As the theological use of the word ‘God’ referees to God the creator of heavens and earth, his Word and his Spirit, and the common use of the word ‘God’ only referees to the creator of heavens and earth, a common misunderstanding of theological trinity is that the Word of God is tautologically equated to God the Father, who created the heavens and earth.

In other words, in Christianity, the statement ‘Jesus is God’ means, that Jesus is the Word of God, this Word of God is eternal and not created in time. This is like the Quran in Islam, and burning bush in Judaism. However, due to the difference between the common and theological use of the word ‘God’, this statement is misunderstood to mean that Jesus is God the Father.

Now, this might not be done linguistically, but it is done physiologically and hence spiritually. Spiritual modalism is one of the main problems in Christianity, and it occurs directly due to an overemphasis on the language of early church father and less emphasis on the language used in the Bible.

It is hard to fall into spiritual modalism, if the language used in the Bible is emphasized, where Jesus is called the Word of God. The biblical spirituality is summarized in John 14:6, “Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.’” Here Jesus is the way, and the destination is God the Father.

I may add that the light to walk on the way is the Holy Spirit, and the Bible is the pointer to Jesus. But in spiritual modalism, Jesus is the destination, and the Bible is the way and truth. This also is the same with prayers.

According to the Bible, the prayers are to be directed to the heavenly Father, in the name of Word, and getting motivated by the Holy Spirit. In other words, you pray to our Heavenly Father, like Jesus, that not our will but the will of our Heavenly Father be done.

Then you experience Holy Spirit, and develop a closeness to our Heavenly Father. To truly experience Holy Spirit, you need to walk on the path, which is Jesus and pray like him, and by walking on that path you end up directing your focus on God the Father, who created the heavens and earth.

As Jesus is the perfect image of God the Father, by following him, you experience the Holy Spirit, and by experience the Holy Spirit, you come closer to the heavenly Father. In spiritual modalism, all this is messed up, Jesus is tautologically equated to the Father, so you end up praying to Jesus or the Holy Spirit, with no role for the Heavenly Father.

This is a physiological mess and a spiritual mess, and occurs due to direct neglect of language used in the Bible. It may be noted in Christianity, the statement used to describe Jesus is that ‘Jesus is God’, and the position of spiritual modalism can be described as ‘God is Jesus’.

Again going back to the example of the burning bush of Moses. Moses could have said, that he talked to God in the burning bush, but he would never say ‘God is a burning bush on Mount Sinai’. In the same, way as Jesus is a perfect image of God, it can be said ‘Jesus is God’, but you cannot say ‘God is Jesus’, just as you cannot say ‘God is a burning bush’.

Going back to the simple example of an image in the mirror. If you see an image of Lincoln in the mirror, or his perfect picture, you can point to that picture and say that he is Lincoln. But it will be absurd to say Lincoln is an image in a mirror, or a photo in your pocket.

In other words, the statement that the picture is Lincoln is correct, but is foolish to say Lincoln is a picture. In the same way, it is correct to say Jesus is God, but it wrong to say God is Jesus.

Jacobsen: What is Spiritual Tritheism?

Faizal: Another misunderstanding which occurs in theological Trinity. It is when Jesus is viewed as a different god, from God the Father. Physiologically, again Jesus is not seen as the Word of God, but as a separate independent God. This again does not occur at a linguistic level, but at a spiritual level, and can be called as spiritual tritheism.

In other words, in Christianity theology, the word ‘God’ denotes God the creator, his Word, and his Spirit. However, when Word of God is called ‘God’, it means that it is eternal and not created in time. It represents the will of God, and this Word takes a practical manifestation in the form of Jesus.

However, as the word ‘God’ is commonly used for the creator of heavens and earth, this statement is misunderstood to mean that Jesus is an independent god, and God the creator is one among three gods. This again produces confusion in terms of the spiritual relationship with God, as Jesus is in this cases viewed as a god besides God the Father, and not as the Word of God, a perfect image God the Father, and a way to the Heavenly Father.

A simple example of a mirror will help understand this point again. You can look at the picture of Lincoln in the mirror and say this is Lincoln, but it will be nonsensical to say that the picture is an independent Lincoln and the mirror image of Lincoln is yet another independent Lincoln. In other words, it will not make any sense to say Lincoln is one among three Lincolns.

In the same way, you can say Jesus is God, as he is the Word of God, but you cannot say God is one among three gods. As there is only one God, and the word theologically word ‘God’ is also used for the Holy Spirit and Word of God to show that they are eternal and not created, and biblically the Word of God denotes his will, which is perfectly manifestation in the form of Jesus, just as it was manifested before as a burning bush.

Jacobsen: What is the Quranic approach to Christianity.

Faizal: I would like to differentiate the Quranic approach to Christianity, from the response of Muslims theologians. Muslim theology developed from the Quran, just like Christian theology developed from the Bible. However, the Quranic view of Christianity seems to be more profound, and deeper than that developed by Muslim theologians.

Jacobsen: The main source of confusion and disagreement starts from the idea that in Christianity, God has a son, and in Islam God has no son. Should we discuss that even before, we do in details of Trinity?

Faizal: I agree that before discussion Quranic View on Trinity, it is important to clarify the meaning of the words ‘Walad of God’ and ‘Ibn of God’, both of which are sometimes translated as ‘Son of God’. Walad is a word which has a direct sexual meaning. It most closely resembles the word “biological son of God’’ or “sexually produced a son of God’.”

Now as it can also mean begotten, a derivative of this word has been used by Arab Christians in their creedal statement. However, as this word sounds really sexual, this word is not commonly used by the Arab Christians. They rather use the word Ibn, which means son in the sense of a parental relationship of love.

However, as Christianity spread in Arabia when the debate on the eternity of Word of God was still active, they ended up using a derivative of Walad in their creedal statement. This would have sounded very bad to pagan Arabs, and they would have misunderstood Christianity to mean that God has a biological son.

It was in this context that the Quran criticized the use of the Word Walad. Quran 6: 101, “To Him is due to the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: How can He have a Walad (biological son) when He hath no consort? He created all things, and He hath full knowledge of all things.” However, as this is not a Christian position, never does the Quran say that Christian says that God has a Walad.

Quran addresses these people, but never calls them Christians, as this is not a Christian position. As an example, Quran 2:116, “They say: “(God) hath begotten a Walad (biological son)”: Glory be to Him. -Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth: everything renders worship to Him.”

On the other hand, the Quran says very clearly that Jews and Christians use the word Ibn both for themselves as Children of God, and Jesus or even Ezra. To understand each of these verses, we need some context.

The first verses criticize few Jews and Christians at the time of Muhammad, who claim to be chosen of God, his beloved, his Children, but do not lead a righteous life. Quran 5:18, “(Both) the Jews and the Christians say: “We are Ibna (sons) of God, and his beloved.” Say: “Why then doth He punish you for your sins?…” Here clearly Quran makes two points, it clearly says that Jews and Christians use the word Ibn (sons) in a relationship sense, which can mean beloved.

Quran also states that those who do not lead a righteous life cannot be called children of God, just as Bible mentions in John 3:10, “This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.”

In summary Ibn (son) of God can mean his beloved of God. Now we come to the verses, where the Quran says, Christian use the word ibn for Jesus. Quran 9: 30,31, “The Jews call ‘Ezra (ibn) son of God, and the Christians call Christ (ibn) son of God. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. God’s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of God, and Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One God. there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him).”

To understand this verse, we first note that Ezra is called as the father of Judaism, as it was due to his efforts that Judaism took its present form. In other words, Ezra is someone that Jews should follow to be good Jews, and Jesus is someone that Christians should follow to be good Christians.

However, for those people who only say they follow them by their tongue and actually follow their priests and anchorites, they are only saying with their tongue what is not in their heart. This is what seems to be criticized here.

This is a general pattern in Quran, that it criticizes those people who say something with their tongue, which is not in their heart, for example, in Quran 63:1, “When the Hypocrites come to thee, they say, ‘We bear witness that thou art indeed the Messenger of God.’ Yea, God knoweth that thou art indeed His Messenger, and God beareth witness that the Hypocrites are indeed liars.”

To understand this verse better from a Muslim perspective, it will be helpful if the son is replaced by beloved, as the previous verses already show both are somehow related. Then this verse could be read as “The Jews call ‘Ezra beloved of God, and the Christians call Christ beloved of God. That is a saying from their mouth; …… They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of God….’’

The main point here is that the Quran does not seem to have a criticism of Ibn like Walad, and Quran never said Christians use the word Walad for Jesus. Quran always seems to refer to people that those people who use the word Walad as such without calling them Christians, as Walad (biological son) of God is not a Christian position. Quran does criticize those Christians who just say they follow Jesus, but actually, do not live a righteous life, and rather live as children of the devil (according to the Bible).

So, in general, we should use to translate the word Walad as a biological son rather than a son. This will refer to those Arab Christians who use such a word in their creed, and basically tell them not to use it, in a cultural context, where it can be seen sexually.

Jacobsen: What is Qurans stance on Biblical Trinity?

Faizal: Quran fully affirms biblical Trinity. Quran seems to be more Trinitarian than even the Bible in this context, as it clearly mentions Jesus as the Word of God, something which is only mentioned indirectly in the Bible.

Quran 3:45, “Behold! the angels said: “O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God.”

Quran 2: 253, “Those apostles We endowed with gifts, some above others: To one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honor); to Jesus, the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit… This is much more direct than what is found in the Bible.”

Jacobsen: What is Quran’s stance on the Theological Trinity?

Faizal: The Theological Trinity deals with the eternity of the Word of God. It is interesting to note that the Quran does not discuss theological trinity at all. There seems to be no discussion of this topic at all.

This might also be the reason that Muslims, have later debated this topic again, with the only difference that the Word of God becomes the Quran in Islam. However, it is interesting to note that the Quran does use the word ‘Word of God’ for Jesus too.

Jacobsen: What is Qurans stance on the Linguistic Trinity?

Faizal: Quran has a mild criticism of the language used by church father for describing trinity. Quran basically tells Christians, that if you want to say Jesus is the Word of God, and strengthened by the Holy Spirit, use the biblical language, and say that directly.

It advises them to avoid such language, that can lead to spiritual modalism and spiritual tritheism. However, the criticism seems to more like advice, and not a very shape criticism like Quran has for spiritual modalism and spiritual tritheism. Quran 4:171, “O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was an apostle of God, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in God and His apostles. Say not “three”: desist: it will be better for you: for God is one God. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a Walad (biological son). To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs.”

Now here first the verse tells Christians not to commit excess in their religion, not follow a different religion. Then it goes on to describe biblical trinity, with God, his Word, and his Spirit. It goes even further than the Bible and directly states that Jesus is the Word of God.

This is followed by advice that it will be better to not use the language of early church father, and it will be better for you as Christians if you stick to biblical language. However, it does not claim if this language is used, it will be an offense for which they will be punished. The problem is that it can lead to an offense in the form of spiritual modalism and spiritual tritheism

Jacobsen: What is Qurans stance on Spiritual Trinity?

Faizal: Quran praises the early followers of Jesus, and advises people who believe in the Quran to follow their example. These people did derive spiritual inspiration from a spiritual trinity. Quran 61:14, “O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of God. As said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples, ‘Who will be my helpers to God.’ Said the disciples, ‘We are God’s helpers!.’”

Quran also advises Christians to follow the gospels and warms those who do not follow it properly. Quran 5:47, “Let the people of the Gospel judge by what God hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.”

Jacobsen: Now we can discuss what Qurans stance is on misunderstandings of the Trinity. The first thing, what is Quran’s stance on Spiritual Modalism?

Faizal: Now as we discussed, in Christianity it is stated that Jesus is God, just like a picture of Lincoln can be called Lincoln. But Lincoln is not a picture, God is not Jesus. In summary, we can say Jesus is God, as this can mean that he is the Word of God, and a perfect image of God the Father.

But God is not Jesus, and this would mean that the creator of heavens and earth is identified with his image. This is interesting as the Quran criticizes the idea that God is Jesus, and not Jesus is God. Quran 5:72, “They do blaspheme who say: ‘God is Christ the son of Mary.’” The verse here is very interesting. As it exactly mentions spiritual modalism.

It criticizes the statement ‘God is Jesus’ and not ‘Jesus is God,’ as the statement ‘Jesus is God’ can mean that Jesus is the Word of God, but ‘’God is Jesus’’ can only mean that the Heavenly Father is Jesus. Only if a person is psychologically and spiritually following modalism, can he utter such a statement? This is what the Quran criticizes.

Jacobsen: After Spiritual Modalism, I would like to ask you about Spiritual Tritheism. What is the Quran’s stance on Spiritual Tritheism?

Faizal: Christianity states that Jesus is an image of the Heavenly father as he is the Word of God made flesh and not some independent god besides God the Father. Rather he is a perfect image of God, and can be thus called as God, son of God, servant of God, or Word of God. The idea that Jesus is an independent god besides God, would mean that God is one among three gods.

This is the idea that the Quran strongly rejects. Quran 5:73, “They do blaspheme who say: God is the third of three: for there is no god except One God…” Again summarizing the problem of spiritual tritheism.

The idea that Jesus was some independent god, different and independent from the Heavenly Father, is strongly criticized in the Quran, but the idea that Jesus was Word of God is totally affirmed by the Quran. It may be noted that this criticize is spiritual and not theological, as Quran criticizes those who take Jesus and Mary as gods besides God in Quran 5:116.

This cannot be a criticism of theology as Mary is not considered divine in any Christian theology, so it has to be understood as a spiritual criticize of tritheism, where Jesus is physiologically taken as a god besides Heavenly Father, and not as the Word of the Heavenly Father.

The main biblical idea that Jesus is the Word of God, strengthened by the Holy Spirit, is fully supported by the Quran and stated in more clear terms than even the Bible.

Jacobsen: Can you summarize your views on discussed here?

Faizal: Yes, I can summarize these findings here:

1. In Bible Trinity, refers to Jesus being the Word of God, which is the way to walk on, if you want to reach the Heavenly Father. The spirit provides the strength to walk on this way, and the end goal is to reach the Heavenly Father.

2. This provides a spiritual understanding, where a person prays as Jesus prayed that the will of the Heavenly Father be done and not his own will, and is strengthened by the Holy Spirit in that process. This is the spiritual trinity.

3. There is a theological Trinity, where it is stated that the Word of God eternal and not created in time.

4. There is a linguistic expression of Trinity, where the word ‘God’ is used for not only, God the creator, but also his Word and his Spirit. This is done to emphasize the eternity of the Word of God.

5. The misunderstanding of linguistic expression of Trinity can lead to spiritual modalism and spiritual tritheism.

6. Quran supports biblical and spiritual trinity. Quran does not comment on the theological Trinity. Quran mildly advises against the linguistic expression of the Trinity, as they can lead to modalism and tritheism. Quran strongly criticizes spiritual modalism and spiritual tritheism. Quran also criticizes the use of dirty words for God, such as a biological son (Walad) of God. However, the Quran never says that Christians say God has a biological son (Walad).

7. In summary, Christianity is as monotheistic as Judaism and Islam, with just a different linguistic expression for its monotheistic beliefs.

8. Muslims should know that when Christians say Jesus is God, they just mean Jesus is Word of God, and Word of God is eternal. If they want to ask Christians, if they consider Jesus as God in the way the word God is understood in common language, they should ask them if Jesus is the Heavenly Father, who created the heavens and earth, and they will get the answer is negative.

9. Christians should avoid the words like Son of God, as Muslims might understand it in biological terms. They can find common terms, like Word of God for Jesus, and Creator for Heavens Father, and they can find common ground to talk to each other.

10. Here we have argued that the Quran can be reinterpreted in a way that it promotes a deeper understanding of Christianity, rather than its rejection. As Quran states in 5:48 To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety… So Quran is an explanation, guard and affirmation of the Bible and not a negation of the Bible.

Sometimes, in Islamic theology, this point has been missed. For example, the identification of Holy Spirit with Gabriel in Islamic theology seems to miss the point that if Quran used it in a Christian context (in relation with Jesus), its meaning has to be restricted to what Christians would understand from it. Similarly, sometimes Christians seem to be to fixed on the use words, that they do not focus on the meaning of those words. However, the concept of God in Christianity is similar to the concept of God in Judaism and Islam. So Christianity is monotheistic like Judaism and Islam.

Jacobsen: Thank you very much, Dr. Faizal, these views may help build bridges between Christianity and Islam, having a theological reconciliation can help build a way for political reconciliation, and will help the cause of peace in the world.

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2019-03-08

An Interview to a Tanzanian Emeritus Professor Alex L. Mwakikoti on Living Without a Religion and More

Author: By Nsajigwa I.Mwasokwa (Nsajigwa Nsa’sam) with Lucas A. Isakwisa

Numbering: Issue 1.B, Idea: African Freethinking

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: African Freethinker

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: March 8, 2019

Issue Publication Date: TBD

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 7,830

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Welcome one and all…we are members of Jichojipya – Think Anew, an organisation with the Educational objects of popularizing philosophy in a fearless – freethinking line, aiming to have positive impact of enlightenment to the society through rationalistic, logic, empirically-based secular values…

We work to identify, unearth and connect freethinkers…be they Secularists, Rationalists, Sceptics and Humanists…those living without a religion in Swahili “Maadili bila dini”. We are the group that interviewed philosophical-wise the late eminent Elder Kingunge Ngombale Mwiru, who came out as an independent thinker and a freethinker, contrary to what the people had been assuming about him. It was a rare occasion then, as it is now, as we interview yet another eminent individual, an Emeritus Professor whose life-stance is like that of Kingunge Ngombale Mwiru, a nonbeliever in the same line as Okot p’Bitek – that university lecturer and writer in 1960s to 1970s of books “Song of Lawino and Okol”, “African religions in western scholarship”, and “Towards Africa’s cultural revolution”. Okot p’Bitek came out as such, a nonbeliever from East Africa, same way as Wole Soyinka, a lecturer too and Africa’s first winner of Nobel Prize for literature (1986), a writer of “Trial of Brother Jero”, native from West Africa. Is it possible to live good without religion..? Let us follow this interview to find that out.

And so..here now we have another Eminent Individual, an academician, emeritus Prof. Alex L Mwakikoti, a Tanzanian. It is our Jichojipya-Think Anew honor, pleasure and privilege…Welcome Mwalimu Mwakikoti

Keywords: Alex L. Mwakikoti, Dar es Salaam, Isakwisa Amanyisye Lucas Mwakalonge, Lucas A. Isakwisa, Nsajigwa I. Mwasokwa (Nsajigwa Nsa’sam), Tanzania.

An Interview to a Tanzanian Emeritus Professor Alex L. Mwakikoti on Living Without a Religion and More[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

*Please note the casual, at times, language style and use are intended to be kept within the content sent.*

An Interview to a Tanzanian Emeritus Professor Alex L. Mwakikoti on Living Without a Religion and More Scott Douglas Jacobsen In-Sight Publishing

The main interviewer and the Founder of Jicho Jipya – Think Anew, Nsajigwa I. Mwasokwa (Nsajigwa Nsa’sam), with Tanzanian Emeritus Professor Alex L. Mwakikoti holding Living Without Religion by the late Paul Kurtz.

1) (a) Hon. Sir, you are a Freethinker, what is an independent thinker? and a freethinker?
(b) How did you become an independent thinker and eventually a freethinker? What circumstances caused someone like you to be a freethinker, and at what age did you become a freethinker? Let us hear the story of that aspect of your life.
More so, of all categories of freethinkers & nonbelievers (Agnostic, Atheists, Ethical-Culturist, Humanist, Secular Humanist, Sceptic, Rationalist, Materialist, etc.) what name “tag” explains best about you and why is that?

Professor A Mwakikoti: Strictly speaking, I can say an independent thinker is one who is not influenced by anything in the process of thinking about issues; the rationalization is based on child-like inquiries arise because of curiosity. Unfortunately, that innocence of child-like questioning slowly disappears as we grow up because our mental capacity of thinking is modified by the social norms in cultures where we find ourselves. A freethinker, to my estimation, is someone who, after being affected by societal norms on how to think about issues, begins to retreat to child-like thinking with complete freedom of asking questions that the social norms may suggest as dangerous or should not be asked. Because by now the individual is mature, there is nothing that stops that freedom of asking as well as seeking answers to questions that would otherwise be stopped. Today, a freethinker is therefore associated with other connotations such as Atheists, Humanists and the like.

My journey to becoming an independent thinker and eventually a freethinker was a process. It did not happen at one time and space. Indulge me to give you a brief story. I am a product of a Lutheran Church Evangelist, Yehoswa Mwakikoti. He was a devoted person who evangelized a large area in Udzungwa region in Iringa, Tanzania. Growing up, I came to emulate my father in most of the things he did. People predicted that I would become a preacher like him. I was baptized when I was young, and after I was confirmed (known as mature independent Christian at about 13) I started asking questions about some stories in the Bible. I enjoyed them, but it seemed to me that some of them were too scary and I became more fearful of God’s punishment for those who did not obey him. After completing my primary school education, I started asking the accuracy of the Bible stories as taught by the Lutheran Church, and so in 1968, I decided to leave the Lutheran Church, but did not know which church I would join. After independently studying the Bible, I decided that instead of resting on Sunday, I would rest on Saturday as a Sabbath. I later came to realize that there were people called Seventh-day Adventists who practiced that teaching. It became natural for me to join them. Upon completing secondary education, an American missionary asked if I would volunteer to start a Seventh-day Adventist church in Mufindi, Iringa, and he promised he would send me to college. I did, and the missionary kept his promise. I went to a two-year college diploma in Uganda, came back to Tanzania and worked as a pastor in Lindi and Temeke in Dar es Salaam. Later, I went to complete my bachelor’s degree in theology at Newbold College in England. I did not want to stop with a bachelor’s degree; I decided to find a way to fund myself and continue with higher education. It was not until I was studying for my master’s degree in religion in the United States, when my questioning was further rekindled and a new serge for why of the bible and bible figures grew sharper. As I said before, I cannot pinpoint the date of my “conversion” to a non-believer, but I can say after completing my Ph.D. is Sociology, more questions arose, especially when I learned that it was a society that created religion, and not religion that created society. Eventually, in 2007, I detached from all religions, calling myself a Humanist. You can say I became a freethinker and a Humanist when I was at the height of my career as a Professor of sociology and communication.

Jichojipya – Think Anew team response: You have reminded us of late elder Kingunge Ngombale Mwiru, on the interview we had with him (google-search “Discussion with a Tanzanian eminent public figure who happened to be a freethinker”). He said the same thing that it was on reading books by Thomas Paine and especially Ludwig Feuerbach (its English translation called the Essence of Christianity) that made him became awakened to that reality that ahaa…so it was the society that created the gods…!

2) What is your experience of being a freethinker and independent thinker? Have you lived a lonely and isolated life…? are you alone? Mentally okay…?

Prof. A Mwakikoti: As a freethinker and independent thinker, I noticed how lonely I was. Most of my friends were and are strong religious people, and some of the members of my family, especially my wife, who is an assiduous devoted Christian. I remember having a tearful talk with her when I decided to become an open freethinker. The Bible taught that people of different faith should not be married; how will we live our life together after this fact? We decided each of us to follow our different path of beliefs, and yet to stay married. Such union has its challenges. Currently, I do not feel like a loner freethinker. With the current technology, the Internet has brought information and links of groups of every kind, including freethinkers’ groups. It was through the Internet that I came to learn the existence of Atheist groups. I was extremely pleased when I connected with Nsajigwa Mwasokwa and learned that it was possible to officially start freethinker’s organization in Tanzania, to which I take pride for being part in the formation process. I am no longer alone, and my mental and emotional capacity and social relationships with fellow freethinkers is better than when I started my journey.

Jichojipya-Think Anew response: Professor, are you talking about this very Nsajigwa here or another one…?

Prof. A Mwakikoti…I am talking about this very one here…our own Nsajigwa…in fact for the record, he has been a pioneer for his generation and for Freethinking. If you search on the internet for information about freethinkers in Tanzania, Nsajigwa will be the top name to come up. I first met him after I googled for freethinkers in Tanzania. We, Tanzanian freethinkers, are proud of Nsajigwa, our own…!

3) How did the circle of academicians of which you belonged accepted you as a Freethinker – academically, socially, religiously…? any stigma…?

We are aware you are part of Jichojipya – Think anew, tell us how you became a part of that and what has been your experience, and how do you see its work so far and prospects for the future…?

Prof. A Mwakikoti: I came to learn years later, that the University of Texas at Arlington, where I taught earlier had a chapter of Atheists; had I known, I would have become an active member there. Academicians, especially in the United States, accepts individuals irrespective of their religious or non-religious affiliations. This is part of the US constitution that prohibits discriminatory policies in all organizations including educational institutions. It is true that you can socially feel outcast in the circles of religious events; but many universities separate those events from the institutional functions just as there is a separation of church and state. But when I taught in a religiously affiliated institution (Wiley College), there was a pull to become part of the religious practice (even though, they did not force any one to do so) as it would be against the established government regulations. I remember at one time the college Chaplain asked me to participate in a devotional discussion at the college assembly. When I told her that I was not affiliated to any religion, she still asked me to say something, because she said, “many students and faculty respect you very much.” I accepted her request, and being a theologian by training, I decided to select a subject from the Bible, “the truth will set you free” for my presentation. She later said she was pleased to have such discussion that many in religious circles do not think much about—Using child-like thinking and questioning everything to arrive to the truth. When in a religious related institution, a freethinker must find a way of using the opportunity to talk about how we arrive at the truth. I remember after that talk, two students came to me and said they were also non-believers and were astounded that I was too.

As I said, it was while I was wondering and searching in the internet to find if there were any freethinkers in Tanzania, that I bumped into Nsajigwa Mwasokwa. After a brief correspondence, I decided I would meet with him when I am in Tanzania . . . the rest of the story is; we are now here together. As you can conceivably imagine, soon after our meeting, I told him that we need to have the organization up and running. My experience of being a member of Jicho Jipya – Think Anew has been a thrill. No organization is free from challenges; but such challenges usually make people think. As far as what the organization has done thus far, I believe it has achieved noble progress, but more so, I am looking forward to what I believe together, we can accomplish as an organization. You see, as a Humanist, I envision that we, as an organization, can provide what is missing in our society. Education, a practical one that empowers people, especially young people to become productive in society—especially by becoming entrepreneurs in various fields. Therefore, I think while we begin with baby-steps, our vision should be to reach the sky of progress. I envision we can be able to create communities that are self-sufficient by first starting with our own organization that can be wealth producing and self-sufficient providing aids to the needy in a multiplicity of ways, such as education, health, finances, and in other areas. It is, therefore, imperative for us to draw a map of where we want to be in five, ten, twenty and fifty years from now

4) (a) Hon Sir, as an eminent Tanzanian academician of sociology…did you ever had a chance to know in person and interact with Founder-father Mwalimu J.K Nyerere? (b)What about this that when Mwalimu Nyerere said (in one of his speeches) if we choose a non-believer as Tanzanian President, we shall have to find other non-religious arrangements of swearing in such a person, without Bible or Koran…What’s your take on that…?

Prof. A Mwakikoti: Unfortunately, I never had a chance to personally meet and interact with Mwalimu J. K. Nyerere. I have read some of his writings, watched his clips and listened to his speeches. I am always astonished on how inclusive he was on freethinking and his vision for the future of Tanzania and Tanzanians. For example, his famous statement that should we choose a non-believer in Tanzania as President, we shall have to find other non-religious arrangement of swearing in such a person. To me, this is a clear indication of how forward-thinking and pragmatic about the possibility of where Tanzania could eventually find herself in the future. Voicing such statements is a clear indication of a great visionary and wise statesman.

Jichojipya – Think Anew response: But Sir, do you see yourself as someone influenced by Mwalimu Nyerere’s philosophy and teachings…?
Prof. A Mwakikoti… Oh, especially on his notion about education, which is in line with the Latin American thinker Paulo Freire as in his book Pedagogy of the oppressed. He said that education should not be just theoretical, it must be practical at the same time. It should not be an education for education’s own sake.

(c) Where else, if outside those books, would someone a freethinker nonbeliever gets his/her moral ideals based on…?

Prof. A Mwakikoti: As one who was deeply in religious circles, I can categorically say that the so-called religious books, such as the Bible, do not necessarily provide moral ideals where one can base on. How do you explain, for example, the morality of forcing someone to worship you and if you don’t, get punished? How do you force love on someone, for example, is that moral? How do you punish or kill someone who has not done anything wrong, but on behalf of someone who wronged? Leave alone the un imaginary story of killings that are rampant in those “holy” books as sanctioned by a god? Is that moral? Or, how do we define moral ideals? From personal experience, I can attest that it was after I came out of religion did, I find it is possible, and natural to be ‘good’ without a god. Doing good freely without a reward or fear of punishment. True love is found where it is expressed freely without strings attached.

(d) Although the people of Tanzania as Africans are “notoriously religious”, (to use the phrase of Late Prof. John Mbiti) however Tanzania state is “secular” by its constitution thus supposedly its practice. As a freethinker Yourself, please give us your analysis how far is that true de facto…?
Do you think there was and still there is perhaps anyhow, somehow, religious overspill sometimes on state governance affairs?

Prof. A Mwakikoti: Although at the first glance I think Professor John Mbiti over simplified the reality of Africans thinking since Africans had the notion of some type of faith traditions, they were ‘notoriously religious.’ He may have been right on one aspect that certain principles are transmitted from one generation to another whether religious principles or not—that is the natural societal dynamics. Yet, you cannot lump all such transmission as ‘religious. Societies consciously create religion through a notorious charismatic leader to perpetuate their messages (whether they are self-made or thought of as sent to them divinely). Mbiti’s notion of Africans as notoriously religious must have been a way to refute the main mission of the Westerners coming to Africa to evangelize non-religious people. Once a tradition or religion is created by society and is transmitted from one generation to another, it definitely can overspill to any societal institutional including state governments. After all, governments are products of society just as religions are.

(e) Your thought Sir on Prayer for the National assembly – “Dua la kuliombea Bunge ritual” also National anthem as on both, “God” is mentioned while in fact, the Nation is secular, not a theocracy. How is that…? (is it not a contradiction…?)

Prof. A Mwakikoti: Many societies, including the so-called freest nation of the United States of America, have struggled when it comes to the ritual of praying or the inclusion of “God” in their national anthems as is the case of oaths. I personally believe it is because of the dynamics of society. Most members of society are not critical thinkers—it takes energy to become one. Instead, they take things for granted without asking questions about the traditions they follow. This is where the paradox lies—are we truly secular or theocracy? Whether it be in Tanzania or in the United States of America, to me this is a clear contradiction.

Jichojipya – Think Anew: Yes, even Mwalimu Nyerere once talked about this too. He saw it as a “contradiction” when we say our country is secular yet our national anthem mentioning god…!

5) As a freethinker Sir, for a very long time, what has been the good side of being so? And may be what had been the hurdles, challenges…?

Prof. A Mwakikoti: As a Freethinker, I like to view things from the perspective of fairness and freedom. While it has not been that long, I enjoy being personally accountable of the decisions I make, not being afraid of a being somewhere who may reward or punish me for my ‘thoughts and actions’. Likewise, I do not blame the “Devil” for making me do it; I personally make my decisions, good or bad. This state of mind has made me free indeed. This is the good part of being a freethinker. I am not afraid of hellfire. The hurdles for me is having a believing spouse. I sometimes have to think before I do certain things so as not to unreasonably hurt her. Again, as a Humanist Freethinker, I have to think about others in my decisions. Sometimes this can lead to making compromises. For example, when having visitors and my wife, for example, asks to stand up and close our eyes to pray for food; even though I may not close my eyes, I may respectively stand up. Such has been my practice to those organizations I belong to or visits who begin their meetings with prayer.

6) From independent thinking to freethinking perspective, 50 years of Uhuru, how do you foresee the future of Tanzania and Africa in terms of Liberty and better life?

Prof. A Mwakikoti: Liberty and a better life are what people make. The 50 years of Tanzania’s independence should be the beginning of a reflective and plan for the next 50 years of how Africa and Tanzania, in particular, should be. Mwalimu J K Nyerere paved a way in many ways, the Presidents that have followed have done what was best at the time. It is high time in Tanzania and in many African countries to think more of what the leaders want their nations to be in fifty years to come – not each in their own leadership term. Such consideration should include economic, education, reduction of poverty, social welfare and others. Tanzania and many African nations are so rich with natural resources, and manpower enough to manufacture their own goods to supply in almost every need and export many to other countries. There is absolutely no reason for them to continue seeking aids from other countries—they should be providing aids to them. With sufficiency in the economy and in other aspects, liberty and a better life are inevitable.

An Interview to a Tanzanian Emeritus Professor Alex L. Mwakikoti on Living Without a Religion and More 2 Scott Douglas Jacobsen In-Sight Publishing

Mount Kilimanjaro.

7) What is your opinion as an independent thinker and a freethinker on the failure of Tanzania and Africa in general to industrialize? And what is your view on Mwalimu Nyerere’s kujitegemea, self-reliance teaching?

Prof. A Mwakikoti: I think Tanzania and other African countries are on the road to industrialization. It is important to look back and learn why we have not industrialized in our fifty years of independence. Some say this is a very short period when you, for example, you compare to the United States of America in their over 250 years of independence. But one should consider this, how fast did the spread of cellphone communication take? We did not say, let’s follow the traditional time-span it took the USA to establish their telecommunication, we jumped into it (I remember then coming to Tanzania to find some Tanzanians having already mobile-phones before many living in the USA!). Things should go fast today. We have the manpower, we have the raw materials, we have tools to extract raw materials from our wealth, why should it take many years. I believe it is a matter of changing our mode of the thinking process. When that is done, industrialization will come fast. I conceive self-reliance learning and teaching by JICHO JIPYA as an organization could be one of the hallmarks of reaching out to bring about change to our societies that will reflect the forward thinking of Mwalimu Nyerere and other strong political leaders of governments.

(b) Multiplications of “Dark age attitude” is seen in believes in magic, superstitions, miracles, witchcraft, “Freemasonry”, “juju” to influence winning soccer games and even the killing of people based on such beliefs. Does it imply those efforts on free education including “Ngumbaru” Adult education to fight against “enemy ignorance” have all been in vain…? and if so, where did we go wrong or rather get it wrong…?

Prof. A Mwakikoti: All these beliefs whether they are ‘dark age attitude’ magic, superstitions, miracles, witchcraft, and others, I consider them to be lack of education. In Tanzania, I think, the fight for ignorance cannot be said to have been in vain, rather, we could say it has not been balanced. The question of ‘what should education address?’ should critically be investigated by the institutions that are responsible for it. For a long time, and most recently, education has followed the traditional colonial streams that have not provided adequate solutions to our society or to our students. For example, what is the use of having so many colleges and universities in Tanzania when many of them are providing the same traditional curricular leading to overpopulated learners of the same and without employment? We should critically rethink the needs of Tanzania for five years, ten years and even twenty years or more from now when deciding on the curricular of our schools. Our young people should not complete their degrees and begin searching for questionable and illegal types of employment. We should provide an environment where diverse types of employment have been carefully forecast and studied years before they complete education. This calls for critical thinking by all concerned organizations in Tanzania and JICHO JIPYA should champion in this process. If we go back for a moment on adult education (reading and writing), adult education needed to be and should be progressive. Not only knowing how to read and write but applying to everyday living. This too, requires an answer to the question, ‘adult education—to what end’? A response to this question will lead to progressive and meaningful education; furthermore, all forms of education should free us from superstitious beliefs into critical and analytical thinking.

8) As a freethinker, what is your advice to young Freethinkers, can freethinkers play any positive role in society? How? Can they be a vehicle to re-educate against such “dark age mentality” a’ la irrationality…?

Prof. A Mwakikoti: Generally young people are the best change agents is society. My advice to young freethinkers is to be pragmatic in their everyday life. They should be role models by continually learning about everything and providing rational thinking in every situation they find themselves. I believe this can create a vehicle of re-educating the society against all the irrational ill thinking about everyday life happenstances including “dark-age mentality”. We are fortunate in Tanzania and in many other societies to have energetic young people who are in leadership positions all walks of life. We should use such opportunity, not to preach or convert people to our thinking mode; but rather, we should live a life that others will want to emulate as they see how successful we are.

9) In your opinion as a freethinker, is “blame game’ to the west still relevant? Is it valid to continue blaming colonialists (as Pan Africanist constantly do) for Africa’s underdevelopment, 50+ years after UHURU – Self-governance? How effective is that? For an antidote, Mwalimu Nyerere suggested kujitegemea – self-reliance ideal…why even that seems so difficult to pursue and attain in post-colonial Africa…? what needs to be done…? Which way forward between Pan Africanism’s constant blame game vs Mwalimu Nyerere’s kujitegemea, Self-reliance on the other-side…?

Prof. A Mwakikoti: A ‘blame game’ or rather, an excuse for development and growth that is cast toward the west is, in my assessment, an irrational one to a large extent. We have gone fifty and beyond years of independence in Tanzania and many other African countries. No Pan Africanist should hide under the umbrella of blame game anymore. Prior to independence and soon after that, it seemed understandable to blame the west. At present, we should blame ourselves for not strategically analyzing what we want to accomplish as Africans in our countries. Mwalimu Nyerere conceived it right, that we entered an era of ‘kujitegemea’ self-reliance, whereby our future is no longer decided by the west, rather, we create our own wealth and distribute it according to the projected developmental needs of our Nation. It amazes me that at present (2019), we still have a sizeable percentage of our national budget based on what we expect as donations from the west in forms of loans and gifts. Where does any rational thinking individual budget their personal income to include a percentage that uncles, relatives, and passerby individuals will donate to balance the monthly expenditure? Never. Organizations, and especially JICHO JIPYA should set standards, paving the way to live like adults in the room by being financially independent and stop the now unpopular blame.

10) What is your opinion on the issue of cultural revival? Do you think as for now local languages (say Kihehe) should be allowed and used as vehicles of communication together with Kiswahili and English to even get broadcast in Radio and TV without “fear” covered in a fallacy that doing so is to encourage “tribalism”?

Prof. A Mwakikoti: I am a proponent of local cultural tourism, and as such, I think local languages should remain active and preserve the dynamic of local cultures. It is of no surprise that there are words in every language that can hardly be translated into Kiswahili or into English or in any other language without losing the true meaning of it because of they’re culturally specific. As such, languages should have a place in the communication of all aspects including broadcast to preserve cultures. If we venerate individuals who encourage nationalism and remain open to other nations, why shouldn’t tribalism be encouraged at the same time allowing a positive interaction with other tribes? In my opinion, tribalism is only negative when it engenders ethnocentrism into it; that is, measuring all other tribes using the yardstick of one’s own tribe. This is another example of those concepts that are handed from generation to the next and are taken as rules without asking hard questions about their legitimacy.

Jichojipya Think Anew response: And what about this dilemma that it is said the teaching of English is making it difficult for Tanzanian students at secondary to higher levels all the way to colleges and universities to grasp the gist of education, it is being claimed that had it been through Kiswahili may be things could have been better..?

Prof. A Mwakikoti: Yes, the challenge is there that several Tanzanian students that cannot express themselves adequately, concisely by speaking or writing via English. The fact is, other Nations like Mexico, Arab countries and those in Asia are using their local languages and English as well. I think there is a need for balance in using both languages. We cannot use only Kiswahili and isolate ourselves from international interaction. Experts tell us that kids can learn effectively up to 10 languages simultaneously, so it is a question of emphasis we adults put on. It comes down to the question of how languages are taught.

Jichojipya – Think Anew response: Yes, in one of his speeches of 1990s, Founder Father Mwalimu Nyerere talking about the subject said we are blessed to have both Swahili…our own Kiswahili – The National language and the “Kiswahili of the world” – implying English adding that, we must learn, study to master and use both simultaneously. So, it is true that the question could be on our own teaching methodology.

11) In Tanzania, very few individuals are known to be open non-believers (and this is the essence of finding out to know and document such individuals – Henry Odera Oruka-like project back then) …are there others like you that you knew or still know? and do you interlink with other fellow freethinkers worldwide? (Mzee Kingunge said he was alone even in the company of his “comrades” the Marxists – a Marxian by dialectic approach himself, but never a Marxist as many of his comrades thought him to be…!)

Prof. A Mwakikoti: I know a few people especially in the United States of America who I link and interact with once in a while. A couple of non-believers where I have an active membership include Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF), and American Humanist Association, both based in the USA. Through my membership, I receive monthly publications and I have attended some of their annual conferences. I think it is very important to research, for example in Tanzania, to know Atheists in the nation, notwithstanding the fact that in the census, Mwalimu Nyerere said there was no need for asking people their religion; saying it was the work of those religious leaders to know their believers. But then, is this a valid reason? What harm could such information be to the Nation if that question is asked? Nonetheless, JICHO JIPYA could devise its own research to collect data useful for other reasonable purposes in society. Jicho Jipya has started a link to reach out to those that maybe freethinkers. By interacting with people in other organizations, such as human rights, we might find freethinkers there. When we find them, we should devise ways of continuing interacting as family members by using such means as WhatsApp, occasional face to face meetings, et cetera. We can learn so much from others, whether they be long-term freethinkers, or new freethinkers.

12) As a Freethinker what is your advice on how to promote Science and Technology from both formal and informal sectors?

Prof. A Mwakikoti: Science and Technology and other aspects of education for the benefit of the country should be critically studied and then, from strategic planning, evaluate where they fit in that long-term planning. Education should be for the benefit of society, not just for education’s sake. I mean, any meaningful education should have a plan of how it will benefit society, both to a student as well as to the society at large. Without critical investigation and planning, society may end up graduating students in the same disciplines and not getting hired or empowering graduates to become entrepreneurs. Education of any kind should be pragmatic, and learners should know its practical application from the moment they set foot on their educational journey. Moreover, unused education upon graduation, is a waste of resources, worse than the uneducated. Specifically, Science and Technology is the game of the day, we cannot leave without it and it should be promoted. And you are right, this promotion should be applied to both formal and informal sectors. Science and Technology in the formal sector, should be pragmatic with aspiration for further discovery through research. But it is also noteworthy to say that there are many young Tanzanians with inborn-ingenuity who have low education and or never went to school at all. Amazingly, these young people have discovered various types of things many of us are unaware of. A good example is our own member of the Jicho Jipya, Mr. Ntubanga Beleng’anyi – who built a working a car galimoto from scratch. Such individuals should be given incentive and encouragement to continue in their creativity.

13) On your opinion as a Freethinker, do you think there is a need to have villages that incubate and support science and technology, like it was for that highly successful Isansa village at Mbozi for cooperative farming and animal husbandry then, a “Silicon-valley like” for Tanzania? Or as per ideas of late Prof. Shayo who had been dreaming to have such one…?

Prof. A Mwakikoti: I am less familiar with the project of Isansa village in Mbozi, but the general idea of incubation and support of science and technology is a critical one. But even before that; one should ask the question as to why we need science and technology—to what end results? Have we done any feasibility studies that if we educate a thousand of young people, a certain percentage will be hired in given industries that we know for certain we have that need, and another percentage will begin their own businesses in science and technology? If we have not gathered any data, then why should we move blindly into such education? We live in a technological age where it is possible to find out possible outcome on almost anything before investing our energy and money into it.

Jichojipya Think Anew response: Isansa was a village that Mwalimu Nyerere was proud of, seeing it is a modal community that envisaged his ideas/ideals for a successful & prosperous Ujamaa village, done on self-reliance and cooperation basis. It was in Mbozi District in Mbeya Region.

14) Sir, Books are said to be the nutrients of the brain, as a freethinker, what are your suggestions on what can be done to promote book reading habit to become a culture in Tanzania, beyond reading for passing examinations? And at a personal level, what book, which one or two inspired you to be a fearless independent minded that you came to be…?

Prof. A Mwakikoti: Indeed, reading habits are cultivated and do not come automatically. It could be my assumption, but I think Tanzanians read quite a bit. Today, there are several ways one can read many books with easy. The habit of reading books mostly by young people seem to be disappearing in many societies, and yet, it is through reading books that we learn more about a variety of things in society. If reading books sounds a boredom activity, one can listen to audio books while performing other tasks such as walking or driving. On a personal level, the Bible is one of the books that pushed me out of Christianity. Seriously. The contradictions that are found there can be enough to push one out of faith. The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, God is not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything by Christopher Hitchens, and Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why by Bart D. Ehrman, were my first books to read and brought about a great relief from my years of struggle in Christianity. Henceforth, I have read several books from a number of great authors. Reading books is comforting, it builds up and helps clarify many questions that a Freethinker always seeks answers from.

Jichojipya – Think Anew response: This here is a book that late elder Kingunge told us when he read it, he discovered who created the gods…human beings…it’s by Ludwig Feuerbach Essence of Christianity, it reads at the back thus, “Did God create man? Or did man create god”?

15) What is your comment on the theory of evolution, The Origin of Species on the book by Charles Darwin?

Prof. A Mwakikoti: I personally think evolution and the origin of species as described by Charles Darwin makes more sense than the speculative beliefs without science, such as the existence of a god. By the way, as a sociologist and a nonbeliever, I subscribe to the fact that man-made gods in many societies in their own images.

16) (As a freethinker do you think it is important to study comparative religions despite the fact that you are a non-believer yourself?

Prof. A Mwakikoti: Studying comparative religion, in my approximation, is a sound concept if you are an analyst and or a debater on religions. Such knowledge helps to understand people and their beliefs better, leading to better awareness as you comprehend their perspectives. Even when I was a pastor, I encouraged members to read and know other religions—but my motive then was to learn how to debate and defeat people from other religions or denominations. I do not regret my journey that took me into theological education. Looking back, I know it helped me question religion and Christianity even more. Moreover, studying different religions helps in understanding their followers better, and in turn, succors in communicating with them.

17) As a freethinker, what are your comment on “hero-worship”? When shall we start being “Students” of Mwalimu (and good one at that!) instead of continuing being ritual disciples – Meaning how should we look on Mwalimu philosophically, critically, instead of, as it seems now, as a political saint to be Canonized, “Mtawa”?

Prof. A Mwakikoti: Freethinkers are to always approach anything with a critical mind. When we venerate individuals to a state of worshiping them, we are no different from those who created all these gods in their societies. Great leaders should be respected and modeled after when we analyze and see what they have contributed to our learning, so is the case of someone like President Mwalimu Julius K. Nyerere. With great respect I have for Mwalimu Nyerere, he was apt to making mistakes and he admitted it. While he is commendable for the great accomplishment he did in our country, Tanzania, we should study and analyze those things that we can emulate and toss away those we know are no longer applicable to our society today; or perhaps, leave them in museums.

Jichojipya – Think Anew response: Yes, Mwalimu Nyerere by his various teachings through speeches and writings showed that society is dynamic, it must keep changing to meet new challenges. He even advised the church back in 1970s to be open to new ideas for social changes, saying development meant rebellion – his 1970 speech: “The church and society” delivered to the Maryknoll sisters conference, New York USA). He himself initiated several major social changes. There is no point in “dogmatizing” Mwalimu, he was progressive and versatile.

18) (a) Now basing on your experience of lifetime as a freethinker, when facing life crisis people with religions go to seek solace, consolation or counseling in churches or mosques or traditional healers and even diviners. Now for you a non-believer, where do you go for that? Is it not a heavy burden for you? How have you managed to cope with that solitude throughout and remain sane?

(b) And as a Freethinker, do you think it is a good idea for a freethinker to write a will so that he/she should not be buried with religious rituals, but be laid to rest just as they lived his/her freethinker’s life?

Prof. A Mwakikoti: Fortunately, even when I was a Christian, I never considered going to someone or organization for consolation, even though I would ask if others needed my assistance in when facing situations that required solace and counseling. I confided my concerns to a few friends, many of whom turned away from me when I rotated to be a freethinker. I have been asked a close related question as to what preparations I need to do before facing death, especially that I am an unbeliever. It really does not bother me, because I believe this is the only life I have, there is not any after life.

I think a freethinker should write a will to reduce the apprehension family members may encounter, wondering what to do with you after you die, even if your will may not be taken seriously by those who remain, especially if they themselves are believers. If they do not want to follow my suggestions, let them do what they please, it will not change who I am. After all, I will be dead.

An Interview to a Tanzanian Emeritus Professor Alex L. Mwakikoti on Living Without a Religion and More 3 Scott Douglas Jacobsen In-Sight Publishing

Jicho Jipya – Think Anew Logo.

Jichojipya-Think Anew response: There is a need for freethinkers to start meeting and socializing from time to time, this will overcome the lonesome isolationism that each one experience. The late elder Kingunge advised us to do exactly that. We must build a community of freethinkers supporting one another as human animal social being. More so there is an idea of introducing Humanist Celebrants here, it will give alternative to those individuals (Freethinkers and anyone else) who would prefer to do civil marriage backed by a non-religious celebration. Same as coming out celebration (alternative to church baptism) for ones’ kids. And if one left a written will for burial, it is indeed possible to be born, grow up, live, marry, get old, die and be buried without a religion or its strings attachments. The Freethinkers though few in this society, need to start a community for that now. The Late Elder Kingunge Ngombale Mwiru in fact, advised us to start meeting regularly, from time to time. That now stands as “wosia” – his final & parting word to us.

19) Okay, finally for today, you have lived a long life as a freethinker non-religious person, what is the “secret” for your living such long and useful life? Any last word you would want to say that can empower freethinking ‘young Africans’ to learn from you . . . Warrior for the life of ‘living without religion’?

Prof. A Mwakikoti: First, about ten years as a Freethinker is not a long time. But for this short time of being a Freethinker, I am very grateful I became. I found freedom in being a Freethinker, freedom from being controlled as a “slave” of religion for about fifty years. Secret? I do not know if there is one. But I know that living oneself in the fullest fearless life is one way of being a successful Freethinker. Avoid feeling the need to convert others to your fold, rather, live a good life without god, and others will seek you out and find more about who you are and what you believe. As I said before, young people are the champion of social change, they should devise their own personal ways of running their critical thinking freethinker’s ways of approaching life happenstances.

                                      THANK YOU VERY MUCH PROF. ALEX MWAKIKOTI

An Interview to a Tanzanian Emeritus Professor Alex L. Mwakikoti on Living Without a Religion and More 4 Scott Douglas Jacobsen In-Sight Publishing

Galimoto’kali car.

We feel honoured and privileged to have this rare philosophical based interview with you Emeritus Professor, the same way, same degree, same depth we had with late elder eminent Kingunge Ngombale Mwiru. Thank you so much sir.

Please, follow up Jichojipya-Think Anew on our social media sites, as we work to identify, unearth and connect Tanzanian freethinkers. These rare individuals who have self-studied, helped by book reading habit, to have figured out and came out of the closet to tell and show society that, it is indeed possible to live ethical good life as Eupraxsophers…that is Rationalists, Empiricists, Modernists, Secularists, Humanists without supernaturality including that of religion. Thank you all. Next interview coming soon. Its Nsajigwa I Mwasokwa (Nsajigwa Nsa’sam) and Lucas A Isakwisa for jichojipya-Think Anew.

Books that have accompany this interview: (1) Eupraxsophy – Living without religion by Paul Kurtz,
(2) Tanzania 1977 constitution of 2005, (3) Essence of Christianity by Ludwig Feuerbach.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Teacher, Historian, Lawyer, and an Advocate of the High Court in Tanzania; Founder, JichoJipya.

[2] Individual Publication Date: March 8, 2019: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/Mwakikoti.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Mwasokwa I, Isakwisa A An Interview to a Tanzanian Emeritus Professor Alex L. Mwakikoti on Living Without a Religion and More [Online].March 2019; 1(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/Mwakikoti.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Mwasokwa, N. I., Isakwisa, L. A. (2019, March 8). An Interview to a Tanzanian Emeritus Professor Alex L. Mwakikoti on Living Without a Religion and More. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/Mwakikoti.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): MWASOKWA, N.I.; ISAKWISA, L.A., An Interview to a Tanzanian Emeritus Professor Alex L. Mwakikoti on Living Without a Religion and More.  African Freethinker. 1.A, March. 2019. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/Mwakikoti>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Mwasokwa, N.I., Lucas A. Isakwisa, Isakwisa. 2019. “An Interview to a Tanzanian Emeritus Professor Alex L. Mwakikoti on Living Without a Religion and More.” African Freethinker. 1.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/Mwakikoti.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Mwasokwa, N.I., Lucas A. Isakwisa “An Interview to a Tanzanian Emeritus Professor Alex L. Mwakikoti on Living Without a Religion and More.” African Freethinker. 1.A (March 2019). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/Mwakikoti.

Harvard: Mwasokwa, N. I. and Isakwisa, L. A. 2019, ‘An Interview to a Tanzanian Emeritus Professor Alex L. Mwakikoti on Living Without a Religion and More‘, African Freethinker, vol. 1.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/Mwakikoti>.

Harvard, Australian: Mwasokwa, NI & Isakwisa, LA 2019, ‘An Interview to a Tanzanian Emeritus Professor Alex L. Mwakikoti on Living Without a Religion and More‘, African Freethinker, vol. 1.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/Mwakikoti.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Mwasokwa, N. I. and Isakwisa, L. A. “An Interview to a Tanzanian Emeritus Professor Alex L. Mwakikoti on Living Without a Religion and More.” African Freethinker 1.A (2019):March. 2019. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/Mwakikoti>.

Vancouver/ICMJE:Mwasokwa NI and Isakwisa LA An Interview to a Tanzanian Emeritus Professor Alex L. Mwakikoti on Living Without a Religion and More [Internet]. (2019, March; 1(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/Mwakikoti.

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© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and African Freethinker 2012-2019. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and African Freethinker with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2019-03-08

Interview with John Collins on William Marrion Branham (Part One)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 19.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fifteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: March 8, 2019

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 4,017

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

John Collins is an Author, and the Webmaster of Seek The Truth. He discusses: William Marrion Branham and his influence; Branham being considered a fraud and cult leader or cult-like leader; ways in which cults or cult-like groups grow; followers of “The Message” extricating or removing themselves from it; and ways to help those individuals or groups trapped in it.

Keywords: author, Christianity, faith healing, John Collins, Seek The Truth, The Message, webmaster, William Marrion Branham.

An Interview with John Collins on William Marrion Branham: Author & Webmaster, Seek The Truth (Part One)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: We talked before. Let’s reboot the context, in brief, who was William Marrion Branham? Why was he influential? 

John Collins: Yes, thank you for having me back again!  It’s good to go a bit deeper than we did last time, and I think expanding upon the context we had before will be beneficial.  So much information has surfaced since our last conversation that a reboot will help open the door to many topics that are virtually unexplored.

William Marrion Branham was an American “faith healer” recognized for his participation in the Post-World War II Healing Revival that began in the mid-1940s and lasted through the 1950s.  It is believed by some that he initiated the revival when his “gift of healing” led to a series of revivals in mid-1946 and that his healing campaigns spawned the modern Charismatic movement.[i]  Understanding why he was influential requires an in-depth look into the mechanics of how he was influential.  Specifically, it requires an examination of the stage persona that Branham created to influence a nation during an extremely vulnerable time in American history, as well as an examination of the historical timeline of events that created the perfect storm.

Remember, it was a time of fear and unrest.  The Second World War had ended, and many people feared that a third was just around the corner.  With the Second Red Scare and McCarthyism spreading, and the thought of widespread communist infiltration of America was very frightening. [ii]  Trust was a scarce commodity.  The Revivalists offered a break from the mental strain of these fears, even if only for a few hours of an evening or weekend.  From farmers to stock brokers, working class to executives of large corporations, the revivals attracted a very diverse crowd and participation in the revivals was extremely high.  They were more than simply religious meetings; a revival was entertaining and therapeutic, offering a quick release of pressure for those who were about to explode.  Branham was not the only revivalist to preach sermons with themes and titles such as “Letting off the Pressure”.  Revivals with soothing themes were much needed during this time of distress and were highly popular.[iii]

The stage persona that William Branham created for his revival campaigns was specifically designed to appeal to the senses of those who needed a release.  He claimed to be a simple man who spent a large part of his childhood hunting and fishing in the hills of Kentucky[iv], which would have resonated with many people in the rural areas his revivals and marketing material targeted.  His usage of Southern slang words[v] and stories of a Huckleberry-Finn-lifestyle[vi] would have reinforced that feeling among his Southern crowds while appealing to the inner-child of even the most refined members of his crowd from the Northern States.

Towards the end of 1945, William Branham renamed his church from “Pentecostal Tabernacle” to “Branham Tabernacle”[vii] and integrated a new theme into his stage persona by claiming to be a Baptist minister newly interested in the Pentecostal experience.[viii]  On the heels of a series of healing revivals in spring of that same year,[ix] Branham began claiming to have been recently given his “gift of healing” during an “angelic visitation”[x], and created a heartbreaking story describing the events leading up to the “angel”.  This alteration was so successful that Branham would continue to use it for the remainder of his career, only adjusting the stage persona slightly to fit the timeline and fully separate this version from the previous iterations.  It is a stage persona that has been immortalized through the hundreds of his recorded sermons from 1947 to 1965[xi] and propagated through the reproduction efforts of Voice of God Recordings in Jeffersonville, Indiana[xii].

Whether it was a predetermined strategy or a skill that would be developed over time, large portions of Branham’s speeches would be focused upon molding this stage persona into a loveable, trustworthy figure that most Americans could relate to.  When he told of tragic events he endured during his many “life stories”, his description of those events was formatted in such a way that a majority of his crowd could both relate with and emotionally connect.  At the same time, he approached them from a religious platform of “inter-evangelical” [xiii]  or “inter-denominational” [xiv], removing any element of skepticism or critical analysis of his doctrine or symbology.  Listeners had every reason to trust him, very little reason to question him, and no reason to doubt him.  As a result, Branham’s influence was widespread, and his legacy is largely comprised of historical accounts that he himself created for use in his meetings.

2. Jacobsen: Why is he widely considered fraud and leader of a, at least, cult-like movement, which still exists today?

Collins: I cannot speak as to why others may view him as a fraud, but I can speak about the reaction myself and some of my associates have shared as historical information started surfacing that placed many aspects of this religion and stage persona into question.  The religious movement as it exists today has been declared to be a destructive cult by both religious[xv] and non-religious[xvi] groups, and when a former member first encounters critical information, it is often followed by waves of emotion.

There are numerous sects and sub-sects of the “Message”, the religious following of William Marrion Branham.[xvii]  There are also sects of Pentecostalism and other religious cult followings who place value on the doctrines that Branham introduced or re-introduced.[xviii]  Yet in all of their various forms, almost every sect has theology that requires William Branham to be a focal point.  In the more extreme sects, Branham’s stage persona has actually embedded itself into fundamental, core doctrines[xix], and leaders of those sects preach apocalyptic theology that is fully dependent upon William Branham as a means to escape Armageddon[xx].

As I slowly uncovered information[xxi] separating the “William Branham” used as a basis for core doctrine from the historical “William Branham”, and slowly began to distinguish the difference between the elements used for the creation of the stage persona and real life, the word “fraud” would have been tame compared to the other words racing through my mind.  Not only was I unaware that previous, much different versions of his stage persona existed[xxii], I felt as though I had been manipulated into my religious beliefs through deception.  This feeling was exacerbated by the leaders of the movement who had access to this information for decades yet continued to preach doctrines dependent upon the final adjustments to the stage persona while concealing information concerning the earlier iterations.

Once the emotions lifted, curiosity drove me into a research project that would last for several years.  I had to know whether or not William Branham could accurately be considered a fraud.  With information quickly becoming available that offered glimpses into his past and seeing a much different version of history than had been available to us in the movement, I knew that it was quite possible that his intentions were good – regardless of the destructive nature of their outcome.  Was he a fraud?  Or was he simply a good man with a passion for helping people during a difficult time in American history?

Our conversation will be unique, as it is the first time that I’ve had the opportunity to explore these questions in public, and the historical data used to form my opinion is virtually unpublished.

3. Jacobsen: What are the ways in which cults, cult-like groups, and others, can be created, maintained, and even grown over time? What are the tricks of their trade? How is Branhamism a case in point – in Canada, in Australia, in the United States of America, and elsewhere?

Collins: I recently have had the opportunity to work with former members of another Pentecostal cult that has a strong presence in the United States, Mexico, several countries in Africa, and more.  If I were to describe the structural composition of this religious movement to former members of William Branham’s “Message” cult following without mentioning its leader or doctrine, those who escaped Branham’s movement would instantly assume that I was referring to the “Message”.  Yet at the same time, former members of both groups contacted me after watching episodes of “Leah Remini: Scientology and the Aftermath”, describing similarities they had identified with the inner workings of Scientology and the cults from which they escaped.  Each time a destructive cult makes headlines in the news after a destructive episode or exposure, members and former members of other cults often notice similarities.

This is a much different experience for current members of a cult as it is for former.  Current members of cults, having been trained to place an unhealthy amount of focus upon their leader, notice the unhealthy level of interest members of the cult making headlines have in their leader.  They experience cognitive dissonance as they try to reconcile the conflicting emotions as they realize their situation is so similar and begin suppressing any troubling similarities while taking mental note of the list of any positive attributes of their own cult leader.

Former members, especially those who recently escaped, are more sensitive to the destructive qualities.  Like the general population who have never experienced a religious cult, they recognize the harm in placing unhealthy levels of reverence, importance, and power in the leader of the movement, but also recognize deeper observations such as similarities in the creation and control of the group they escaped and the group they are observing.

I find it both fascinating and disturbing that the same scenarios can be applied to the creation, maintenance, and growth of destructive cults.  Many cult leaders have emerged after having either experienced or observed the formation and design of other cult followings.  Rev. Jim Jones of Peoples Temple, whose cult following ended in mass suicide at Jonestown, Guyana, was a member of William Branham’s “Message” cult[xxiii] during the time the “Message” was more closely aligned with the “Latter Rain” sect of Pentecostalism. Branham, whose campaign team was comprised of former members from Rev. John Alexander Dowie’s “Zion City” cult, appears to have used many of Dowie’s ideas and theology, including a claim to be the return of “Elijah the prophet” from the Old Testament.  Before starting his own cult following and claiming to be another return of “Elijah”, Rev. Charles Fox Parham purposefully observed both Dowie and Rev. Frank Sandford, who also claimed to be the return of “Elijah”. [xxiv]   Each of these cult leaders, though only loosely connected, share many similarities in the creation and establishment, maintenance and control, and spreading of their religious movements.  All created their religious movements with an open-door policy, claiming participation with other denominations while slowly attracting members out of them.  Over time and as their cults were being established, cooperation was slowly replaced with distaste or even hostility towards the outside groups.  The two-way open door effectively transitioned into a one-way partially-closed door, and the isolationist mindset was established.  Though many different religious cult followings have vastly different origins and beliefs, in their core formation, some level of this transition must occur for them to become destructive.

Once a group of people has placed an unusual amount of control and reverence to a single individual or single group of individuals, i.e. the cult leader(s), and the following has started to become convinced that the leader(s) have supernatural abilities greater than other humans both inside or outside their group, it is difficult to maintain.  The leaders of these movements are, as we know, normal human beings, and are subject to all of the types of problems that exist in humanity.  Not only must they ensure that their followers continue believing in their “gifts” and their “elevated” status, they must prevent the group from critically examining all aspects of their lifestyle.  The group must conform, but they must also be controlled to prevent widespread critical analysis.

Religious cults often manipulate or control behavior patterns, from dress code to entertainment.[xxv]  In movies and in television, similar stereotypical clothing is used to depict a cult, and viewers generally agree that they “look like a cult”.  This is a direct result of creators noticing similarities in the dress code and behavior of religious movements in the news, and their contrast from other members of society.  For people in these groups, it provides a quick-and-easy way to identify members from non-members, but for the leaders, it shifts a great deal of focus away from themselves and onto those who do not conform.

Cult leaders must also limit the amount of information that is available to the group and control the information that has been made available.[xxvi]  Leaders who claim to be “prophets” must only allow information about “prophecies” that appear to have been accurate, while concealing or controlling the perception of information available for “prophecies” that were not accurate.[xxvii]  Healers must avoid letting the group learn of those who continued to suffer or die after being “healed”, those claiming benevolence must conceal their personal finances, and all must conceal or control information that humanizes themselves or their ministries.  This type of control is not limited to external sources.  Every group contains a very diverse set of members, many of which have very curious and analytical minds.  Thoughts and emotions must also be manipulated and controlled to prevent those minds from questioning and exploring to prevent widespread demotivation.[xxviii]

The difficulty in continuing this type of control leads to the outreach programs we see in Branhamism and other religious cult followings.  It is far more effort to maintain this level of manipulation in cities or even countries of origin.  Access to critical information is easily available for local members yet almost non-existent for those on distant shores.  Many religious cults turn to global outreach to grow their following rather than local campaigns to attract new members.

Thankfully, the information age has leveled the playing field.  The digitalization of media archives and social network interaction has managed to bring even the most distant parts of the world together, and the sharing of information has led to mass exodus or implosion of many destructive groups.

4. Jacobsen: How can questioning followers of ‘The Message’ begin to help themselves become extricated from it?

Collins: It is very difficult leaving a destructive cult following, whether it is the “Message” (in its many various forms and leadership) or other.  For many former members, the negative effects were felt for several years.[xxix]  Ironically, the easiest way for most people to break free from these groups is to heed the advice of the cult leaders:  Study the group’s information!  If you are in the “Message”, study the “Message”.  Study the works, history, and legacy of William Branham.  If you are in Scientology, study Scientology!  Study the works, history, and legacy of L. Ron Hubbard.  Don’t limit yourself to study only the filtered information that the cult has promoted or manipulated, study everything from praise to critical analysis.

A member of one of our support groups recently commented, “It’s funny how we study the ‘Message’ more now that we left than when we were in it!”  It is true; many former members find themselves digging through mounds of information to try and piece together the artifacts that explain the last several years or decades of being controlled and manipulated.  At the same time, it is very therapeutic.  Leaning how and why a cult leader created and maintained their following is important but understanding how it directly affected your psychological makeup demystifies the manipulation and control.  It brings release.

5. Jacobsen: How can external agencies, groups, and individuals help those trapped in it?

Collins: There is a huge need for resources of all kinds.  There are as many as 5,000 cults in the United States alone[xxx], and very little information is available for most of them.  Sadly, a great deal of information exists for groups that have tragically ended in mass suicide[xxxi] but was almost non-existent leading up to their destructive event.  Many similar groups, with similar structures and conditions have the same potential outcome, and unfortunately will not be critically examined until their climax.

Counseling is both exhaustive and costly, and many who want to escape or have escaped cannot afford the added expense.  Most of their surplus income and even retirement funds have been given to the cult leaders.  In many cases, the cult was also their primary source of income.  After leaving, former members are starting over in all aspects of life, spiritually, mentally, and financially.

In some parts of the world, former members are clinically diagnosed as having Group Dependence Disorder and are treated for symptoms ranging from significant personal and family impairment to professional and social impairment.[xxxii]  In North America, however, these groups are classified generically in the category of “religion”, and the traumatic issues cult escapees face are dismissed incorrectly as simply a “bad experience with a poor choice in religion.”  It is critical that cult psychology training be required learning for psychologists and counselors, and that resources are available for those already active in their profession.

There is a wide variety of areas in which those wishing to assist in the escape of cult members could assist, from spreading awareness and assisting in educating cult members to contributing towards the much-needed counseling after their escape.  Those wishing to do so can contact us on our website, http://www.seekyethetruth.com.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Author; Webmaster, Seek The Truth.

[2] Individual Publication Date: March 8, 2019: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/collins-one; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[i] Weaver, John. 2016, Mar 23. The New Apostolic Reformation: History of a Modern Charismatic Movement. p34.

[ii] Heale, M. J. 1998. McCarthy’s Americans: Red Scare Politics in State and Nation, 1935-1965. University of Georgia Press.

[iii] Gatewood, Willard B. 1966. Preachers, Pedagogues, and Politicians: The Evolution Controversy in North Carolina, 1920-1927. UNC Press Books. p39.

[iv] Branham, William. 1951, July 22. Life Story. “We were raised in the mountains of Kentucky”

[v] Branham, William. 1954, Aug 29. I Will Restore, Saith the Lord. “I’m just a Kentucky corn-cracker, with my words of, “hit, hain’t, tote, fetch, carry.”

[vi] Branham, William. 1955, Jan 17. How the Angel Came to Me, and His Commission. “Where I used to trap when I was a boy, had a trap line through there, and go up there and fish and stay all night. Just a little old dilapidated cabin sitting over there, been in there for years.”

[vii] First newspaper announcement of “Branham Tabernacle: 1945, Oct 13. Church Listings. Jeffersonville Evening News. Example listing as “Pentecostal Tabernacle”: Rev. Branham to Leave for Summer. 1940, Apr 29. Jeffersonville Evening News.

[viii] Branham, William. 1951, July 22. Life Story. “When it come mine I said, ‘Billy Branham, evangelist, Jeffersonville, Indiana,’”

[ix] Branham, William. 1945. I Was Not Disobedient to the Heavenly Vision.

[x] Branham, William. 1955, Jan 17. How the Angel Came to Me, and His Commission.

[xi] The Table. Accessed 2019, Feb 3 from https://table.branham.org

[xii] Voice of God Recordings. Accessed 2019, Feb 3 from https://branham.org/en/aboutus

[xiii] Branham, William. 1948, April. The Voice of Healing: An Inter-Evangelical Publication of the Branham Healing Campaigns.

[xiv] Branham, William. 1954, June 20. Divine Healing. “I never joined any denominational church, and I don’t intend to. I intend to stand between the breach and say we are brothers.”

[xv] Jacobsen, Ken. 2009, Jan 19. A Refutation of William Marrion Branham. Accessed 2019, Feb 3 from https://culteducation.com/group/1289-general-information/7839-a-refutation-of-william-marrion-branham.html

[xvi] The Message. Accessed 2019, Feb 3 from http://old.freedomofmind.com/Info/infoDet.php?id=883

[xvii] Message Sects. Accessed 2019, Feb 3 from http://en.believethesign.com/index.php/Message_Sects

[xviii] 2018, Aug 18. Rev. Beniece Hicks, founder of Christ Gospel Church, dies. Accessed 2019, Feb 3 from http://cityofnewalbany.blogspot.com/2018/08/rev-bernice-hicks-founder-of-christ.html

[xix] Example: The Messenger. Accessed 2019, Feb 3 from https://www.messagechurch.com/message/the-messenger/

[xx] The Mystery of the Rapture. Accessed 2019, Feb 3 from https://endtimemessage.info/rapture.htm

[xxi] The Message: The Series. A Historical Look into William Branham’s “Message”. Accessed 2019, Feb 3 from http://william-branham.org

[xxii] Example: Branham, William. 1945. I Was Not Disobedient to the Heavenly Vision. (Branham’s “gift of healing” came by vision in 1945, as opposed to his later stage persona which claimed the “gift” came during an “angelic visitation in 1946: Branham, William. 1954, Aug 9. The Manifestation of Thy Resurrection to the People of this Day. The very day that Israel was declared a nation again for the first time for twenty-five hundred years, that same night the Angel of the Lord sent me out to pray for the sick, the very same time, May the 6th, 1946, the Lord Jesus did that”

[xxiii] Collins, John. Duyzer, Peter M. The Message Connection of Jim Jones and William Branham. Accessed 2019, Feb 3 from https://jonestown.sdsu.edu/?page_id=65112

[xxiv] Collins, John. 2017. Jim Jones – The Malachi 4 Elijah Prophecy. Dark Mystery Publications.

[xxv] Hassan, Steven. 1988. Combating Cult Mind Control.

[xxvi] Steven Hassan’s BITE Model. Accessed 2019, Feb 3 from https://freedomofmind.com/bite-model.

[xxvii] Example: Branham, William. 1960, Nov 13. Condemnation by Representation. “By the way, Mr. Mercier and many of them are going to take some of these old prophecies, and dig them out, and revise them a little, or bring them up to date, and put them in papers.”

[xxviii] Collins, Glenn. The Psychology of the Cult Experience. 1982. New York Times. Accessed 2019, Feb 3 from https://www.nytimes.com/1982/03/15/style/the-psychology-of-the-cult-experience.html

[xxix] Hassan, Steven. 2012. Freedom of Mind: Helping Loved Ones Leave Controlling People, Cults, and Beliefs.

[xxx] Clark, Charles S. Cults in America. Accessed 2019, Feb 3 from http://library.cqpress.com/cqresearcher/document.php?id=cqresrre1993050700

[xxxi] Example: Alternative Considerations of Jonestown & Peoples Temple Search this website. Accessed 2019, Feb 3 from https://jonestown.sdsu.edu

[xxxii] Jansà, Josep, M.D., Perlado, Miguel, PhD. Cults Viewed from a Socio-Addictive Perspective. Accessed 2019, Feb 3 from http://www.ais-info.org/application/uploaded/cults_viewed_from_a_socio-addictive_perspective.pdf

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Interview with John Collins on William Marrion Branham (Part One) [Online].March 2019; 19(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/collins-one.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2019, March 8). Interview with John Collins on William Marrion Branham (Part One). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/collins-one.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Interview with John Collins on William Marrion Branham (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 19.A, March. 2019. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/collins-one>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “Interview with John Collins on William Marrion Branham (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 19.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/collins-one.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Interview with John Collins on William Marrion Branham (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 19.A (March 2019). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/collins-one.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2019, ‘Interview with John Collins on William Marrion Branham (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 19.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/collins-one>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2019, ‘Interview with John Collins on William Marrion Branham (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 19.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/collins-one.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Interview with John Collins on William Marrion Branham (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 19.A (2018):March. 2019. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/collins-one>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Interview with John Collins on William Marrion Branham (Part One) [Internet]. (2019, March 19(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/collins-one.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2019. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2 Comments
2019-03-06

Ask Mark 3— Peeves, to Nones, and Back Again: A Tale of Marko Gibbons

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee: Mark Gibbs

Numbering: Issue 2: Here We Go

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: Question Time

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: March 6, 2019

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 699

Keywords: Mark Gibbs, Nones, religion, Scott Douglas Jacobsen.

Mark Gibbs is an independently educated nonbeliever, who has some interesting and precise thoughts about the terminology in the survey data presented to the unbelieving community over the years. Here, in this series, we will explore some of the content, starting with the term “Nones.”

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: If you could redo surveys and analyses of the surveys by Pew Research and others on the non-religious, how would you do it?

Mark Gibbs: Well, doing surveys well is a highly technical art, so I don’t want to come off as an opinionated dummy telling experienced professionals what to do. There’s a very good reason why they keep using affiliation as a metric: it’s so easy and cheap. It’s a single question, it’s easy for survey respondents to understand, and it’s trivial to group data by. It also allows your data to be easily compared with just about every other survey out there.

And, honestly, there are times when affiliation is a useful metric. For example, a survey that finds that a high proportion of people who identify as Catholic hold a disgusting opinion is not useless. It is very effective as a fact to hold in the face of people who continue to identify as Catholic: “How can you still call yourself Catholic when this is what you’re identifying with?”

However… it is true that using affiliation as a metric just doesn’t work for finding out about nonbelievers. And nonbelievers are my people; I want to know more about them. So with respect to the experts, I’ll just brainstorm some possibilities. And I want to stress this is really only aimed at people doing opinion surveys, not actual social scientists. This may already be a solved problem in social science; I don’t keep up with the field closely enough to know.

The first thing I’d like to see is a de-emphasis on affiliation, and more focus on beliefs or intensity of belief. I’d like to see surveys that don’t just ask: “what (religious) team are you on?”

As for how to do that — and let me stress that I’m just totally spit-balling here — the affiliation question might be replaced with a question like:

Which of the following best reflect your beliefs (choose all that apply):

· ☐ I believe that God exists.

· ☐ I believe that there is life after death.

· ☐ I believe in reincarnation.

· ☐ I believe that psychic powers (precognition, telekinesis, remote viewing, etc.) exist.

· ☐ (and so on…)

A modest proposal for a better survey question about religiosity

The exact options would have to be carefully chosen, and ideally standardized. Respondents could then be grouped according to their choices — basically the same thing Pew does with their new typology.

Is that actually practical? You’d have to ask experts in the field. Certainly it would be more complicated (and thus, more expensive) than a simple affiliation/identification test. But I think that’s justifiable given that religion is such a complicated topic. And we really need more research done about actual beliefs — not mere affiliation — not least because you can’t really learn anything about nonbelievers if all you ask is mere affiliation.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Mark.

Gibbs: Thank you for taking an interest in this pet peeve of mine!

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and Question Time by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com and https://medium.com/question-time

Copyright 

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time 2012-2020. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

1 Comment
2019-03-01

Interview with Stacey Piercey on Fundamental Human Rights and the Transgender Community (Part Four)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 19.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fifteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: March 1, 2019

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,158

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Stacey Piercey is the Co-Chair of the Ministry of Status of Women Sub-Committee of Human Rights for CFUW FCFDU and Vice Chair of the National Women’s Liberal Commission for the Liberal Party of Canada. She discusses: fundamental rights and freedoms; implementation of fundamental rights and freedoms; the sources of violations of fundamental rights and freedoms; prominent transgender community individuals; real-life impacts of fundamental rights and freedoms denials; expediting the acknowledgment and instantiation of the fundamental human rights and freedoms of trans individuals and the transgender community around the world; and the regions progressing and regressing. 

Keywords: Co-Chair, Liberal Party of Canada, Ministry of Status of Women, Stacey Piercey, Vice Chair.

Interview with Stacey Piercey on Fundamental Human Rights and the Transgender Community: Co-Chair – Ministry of Status of Women Sub-Committee of Human Rights, CFUW FCFDU; Vice Chair National Women’s Liberal Commission at Liberal Party of Canada | Parti libéral du Canada (Part Three)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: In terms of the rights arguments, what are the fundamental human rights and freedoms trans individuals and the transgender community deserve as human beings?

Stacey Piercey: I have heard all the reasons over the years as to why I should not have any special privileges as a transgender person. At the time when I began my transition, I didn’t want a handout; I needed a hand up to have equal access and opportunity. I suffered being on the outside of society. It was traumatic to know that I was no longer a human.

I did earn my right to be a woman and the respect that comes with my new gender. It is the law too. The courts can now decide on the concept of what is “gender identity and expression.” When I had to re-establish myself, it was difficult, especially when faced with outright discrimination. I heard the word “no” everywhere I went for years. Then the human rights movement started in Canada because there were many of us with similar problems. We were in a system that was unable to deal with a change in gender. It was a legal nightmare, and legislation was needed.

The government at the time wasn’t ready for me. I had complicated problems. I had issues in establishing my identity, and that held me back. I was in a situation where I was incredibly vulnerable, and people were able to take advantage of me. Today’s standards did not exist five years ago, let alone ten or twenty. I should have received help. Institutions that respect fundamental human rights should welcome us, correct past wrongs, and apologize. We all need to move on. I want to see transgender people in my community. My quality of life depends on the human rights that other people grant me as a transgender individual. I prefer to be equal.

2. Jacobsen: What does the implementation of these fundamental rights and freedoms imply for the wider global culture, especially in terms of their current treatment of trans individuals and the transgender community? 

Piercey: When the government here introduced and implemented transgender human rights, it did send a message of hope to all those who live in fear due to gender identity and expression. They know in Canada, I am considered an equal citizen with protections under the law. The concept has created a ripple effect around the world and, it sure has inspired transgender people to strive for and obtain similar rights in other places.

I believe countries that pursue inclusion policies are acknowledging a problem in society and are attempting to fix it so that all citizens feel safe to live their lives. As more transgender people come out and establish themselves these communities will thrive. I am always discovering new terminologies, identities and concepts as of late. It will take time to see our contribution to society. I know that I do bring a different perspective to the conversation. I find that nations which are progressive can introduce transgender right with ease. Our constitution, here in Canada, allows for human rights protections of groups. We are people. It was a big deal to add those few words to a piece of paper. It was an easy legal step and a problematic political accomplishment at the same time.

3. Jacobsen: What seems like the central set of sources for the violations of the fundamental rights and freedoms of trans individuals and the transgender community?

Piercey: I will speak from my experience. One violation that I deal with is sexism. It is so strange to watch it happening to me. I treat everyone the same. Then I get dismissed sometimes by men, and women do it too. It is never that I am transgender anymore as it is now a grotesquely overpriced bill, an excuse that doesn’t make sense or someone who pretends they don’t know me.

I get discrimination because I am LGBTQ. I see myself as a straight woman. I don’t get that one at all, yet it happens, and that makes me go to a pride parade. I do have great empathy towards others who are stigmatized or suffer to no fault of there own. To have a normal life and to think of retirement would be nice again.

Another form I see is fear of human rights violations, as it makes people nervous. This I when it isn’t about helping the individual solve a problem as it is more about not violating someone’s human rights. Professionals have no excuse as they are trained to do their job respectfully and cannot legally isolate you because they disagree with your gender identity or expression. It is usually an error in judgement, inadequate training and not malicious. I spotted this fight or flight reaction when I had to say, that the problem is, I am transgender.

4. Jacobsen: Who are some prominent trans individuals who truly set the framework of the modern discussion around trans rights and inclusion of the transgender community into the mainstream cultures? 

Piercey: There are many prominent transgender individuals in all aspect of society. I refuse to name anybody. I have a soft spot for all those I met in person. I call them all my brothers and sisters and others. They are leaders in their fields and their communities too. They have all fought their own battles, I have gotten to know many of them well over the years, and they are like family to me.

Here in Canada, it was each one of us that contributed to this human rights fight. It wasn’t a heroic battle. It was about individuals standing up and saying this was wrong. Enough of being taking advantage of because we are transgender. I decided I couldn’t live in fear and I stepped out of the closet. My friends and I all supported each other, and I was never alone.

5. Jacobsen: What are the real-life impacts of the denial of fundamental rights and freedoms of trans individuals in countries around the world? 

Piercey: It isn’t a difficult concept to have respect for others. Transgender people are easy targets because they are a vulnerable segment of the population. I wouldn’t travel to a place or work where people are not respected. I don’t believe I am alone in thinking this way. Nobody is comfortable supporting oppression of fundamental rights and freedoms. Transgender people are the preverbal canary in the coal mine for human rights around the globe. That is where Canada has had an impact on other countries. We are sharing our message of human rights. They know our story about what has happened here. They are watching and learning this new way of saying yes and resolving issues. Transgender people are out and very proud to be Canadian. They are influencing change in society.

6. Jacobsen: At the level of the United Nations and human rights organizations, and international non-governmental organizations, what could be done to expedite the acknowledgment and instantiation of the fundamental human rights and freedoms of trans individuals and the transgender community around the world? 

Piercey: There are declarations by international organizations that call for fundamental human rights. Governments are changing the laws of their countries to accommodate these protections. Corporations are implementing policies, processes and procedures into everyday operations. I often see now medical advancements, legal victories and the establishment of social supports. Remember there was no infrastructure a few years ago, transgender people were in legal limbo, and nobody had to do a thing; as being neither male or female, could at any time, be used against you. It wasn’t easy, let me tell you.

As a new group of recognized people, we are currently having a conversation about the problems we all had and are now trying to fix them. I have learned more being outside of the transgender community as of late, and I bring that back with me every time I drop back in. It is nice to be accepted so openly by other groups as well.

I think it is exciting times and can’t wait to see how this all unfolds. I do know that you will never solve every problem or grant everyone the same freedom that I currently enjoy. I believe education is vital. This world is getting smaller, and we are becoming one community. That is the future I plan to be a part of as a transgender person.

7. Jacobsen: In terms of fundamental rights and freedoms, what regions are progressing? Why? What nations are regressing? Why? 

Piercey: I can say that some nations are receiving more media attention dues to legal battles, policy debates and integration issues because of their transgender citizens. I think Canada is a leading example in comparison to some conservative-minded governments. Those tend to struggle more with human rights, valuing social policy and understanding inequality.

I know the younger generation that I met have less of a problem with gender identity or expression than what I remember from growing up. I recently read that twenty percent of the population now identifies as LGBTQ. That is double from what I ever heard. It blew my mind for a few minutes. I expect significant change in the years to come, and I am not worried about it. You can’t stop progress.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Co-Chair – Ministry of Status of Women Sub-Committee of Human Rights, CFUW FCFDU; Vice Chair National Women’s Liberal Commission at Liberal Party of Canada | Parti libéral du Canada; Mentor, Canadian Association for Business Economics.

[2] Individual Publication Date: March 1, 2019: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/piercey-four; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Interview with Stacey Piercey on Fundamental Human Rights and the Transgender Community (Part Four) [Online].November 2019; 19(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/piercey-four.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2019, March 1). Interview with Stacey Piercey on Fundamental Human Rights and the Transgender Community (Part Four). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/piercey-four.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Interview with Stacey Piercey on Fundamental Human Rights and the Transgender Community (Part Four). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 19.A, November. 2019. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/piercey-four>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “Interview with Stacey Piercey on Fundamental Human Rights and the Transgender Community (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 19.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/piercey-four.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Interview with Stacey Piercey on Fundamental Human Rights and the Transgender Community (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 19.A (January 2019). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/piercey-four.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2019, ‘Interview with Stacey Piercey on Fundamental Human Rights and the Transgender Community (Part Four)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 19.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/piercey-four>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2019, ‘Interview with Stacey Piercey on Fundamental Human Rights and the Transgender Community (Part Four)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 19.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/piercey-four.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Interview with Stacey Piercey on Fundamental Human Rights and the Transgender Community (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 19.A (2018):January. 2019. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/piercey-four>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Interview with Stacey Piercey on Fundamental Human Rights and the Transgender Community (Part Four) [Internet]. (2019, January; 19(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/piercey-four.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2019. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

1 Comment
2019-02-24

Ask Terrah 2 — The Core of Customer Service

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee: Terrah Short

Numbering: Issue 2: Here We Go

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: Question Time

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: February 24, 2019

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 984

Keywords: America, customer service, Scott Douglas Jacobsen, Terrah Short.

Terrah Short earned a Bachelor’s in Philosophy (Analytic) with a Minor in Disaster Risk Reduction from Western Washington University in March 2017. She is a product of a working single father and the Puget Sound area of Western Washington in the United States of America. Here we talk about customer service.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What are the main considerations in keeping a customer happy?

Terrah Short: You must take into account the individual, with each customer. When I really think about it, it does seem quite exhausting! Like in all facets of life, it’s important to remember that they are each an individual person, just like every retail worker. To get more in-depth, how I manage each costumer is going to depend on what shift I’m working, what time of day it is, how busy it is, and sometimes it comes down to my own mood or what’s going on in my life, though I do my best not to let that affect my quality of service.

I do my best to take each customer where they’re at, check in with them as I’m checking their groceries, ask if they need their meat separate, their soaps in a separate bag from their foods, or if they need their bags to be light, and these are the sorts of things customers remember. Knowing you took the time to ask them the small things that can be a lot. I recall a customer who appeared able-bodied, but when I asked if they needed their bags light (they had brought a large amount of them), they lit up and were grateful I asked as they had recently had surgery and couldn’t lift more than 10lbs.

At the end of the day, I think we all appreciate someone taking an interest in the big or small needs that we as a customer may forget to ask or just appreciate even if we weren’t in need of the accommodation.

Jacobsen: When a customer is wrong but belligerent, how do you handle them?

Short: To start, I try to just listen and try to understand it from their perspective. Most often we can solve the issue by getting the transaction done and offering everything we can to make the situation smooth. However, if they get belligerent, we should always escalate it to the person-in-charge (PIC). I will usually offer to have them step aside and to talk to my PIC, and generally they don’t want to wait around. The biggest challenges have come up when I personally was working our swing/night shift (generally 8pm-3:30am), and I have other co-workers who work this shift and have had similar experiences. At night, since there can be anywhere from myself (the cashier) and four others (our grocery night stockers) to just myself and the night PIC. Generally, I would try to triage the situation myself, tolerate what could be described as abusive behavior from customers, because if I wasn’t in danger or if it wasn’t becoming too much of an issue, there was no reason to bring the PIC into it. We have a wide range of customers that come into our store, from college students, seniors, professors, people passing through, tourists, and unfortunately, we also have a large population of people who come in strung out, drunk, or some other combination of intoxication.

Jacobsen: When a lower-level employee is going through a problem, does this become a basis for the reportage up the chain if this becomes unmanageable for them?

Short: It depends on the problem. Most often, things go unmentioned and lower-level employees talk among themselves, we try and problem solve and support one another together. I feel like many of us just try to get through our shifts, not stir the pot, and maintain employment status. Though I’d like to think if things really got bad or uncomfortable, that our entry-level employees, including myself, would be willing to go to our supervisors, or at least our Union, to talk about what we’re going through.

Jacobsen: How does the code of conduct referenced in Ask Terrah 1 — Retail and Customer Service relate to this?

Short: I think it relates to all of it. Do your best to provide a positive experience for the customer, but make sure you adhere to, or even defer to, company policy. That is one way we are encouraged to protect ourselves or to explain decisions made, especially when selling alcohol or tobacco, that it is company policy and there is nothing we can really do. I think it is important that we as retail service folks start to stand up with the power that is being afforded us through our Unions and support from our supervisors. Taking care of ourselves needs to be the priority, but far too often, we just need to pay the bills and sometimes that means putting up with unpleasantness.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Terrah.

Image Credit: Terrah Short.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and Question Time by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com and https://medium.com/question-time

Copyright 

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time 2012-2020. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2019-02-22

Witchcraft Belief and the Killing of Children in Tanzania

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Author: Isakwisa Amanyisye Lucas Mwakalonge

Numbering: Issue 1.B, Idea: African Freethinking

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: African Freethinker

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: February 22, 2019

Issue Publication Date: TBD

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,924

ISSN 2369-6885

Keywords: children, Dar es Salaam, killing, Isakwisa Amanyisye Lucas Mwakalonge, Tanzania, witchcraft.

Witchcraft Belief and the Killing of Children in Tanzania, East Africa[1],[2]

Nyambanitu Scott Douglas Jacobsen In-Sight Publishing African Freethinker

From January to February this year  2019, it has been reported that around 10 children have been killed in Njombe Region in South West (aka Southern Highlands) Tanzania, for some children, their bodies had been found thrown at the forest nearby, with their pharynx part of the throat in their neck cut, and or private parts missing. Rumors from ordinary citizens there say these ongoing killings occur because the killers need private parts and human blood for rituals. It is because of witchcraft beliefs that they will use for making them rich, successful in business and political achievement since this year 2019 is a year for local government elections and next year 2020 there will be a general election. Therefore it is said and believed by those ordinary people that probably these children killings may be connected to these rising political temperatures by politicians, but these are just hearsay information, it should not be considered as official ones. However, the government of Tanzania through its different departments concerned has been releasing official information about this sad saga. For instance The Regional Police Office  in Njombe Region  through the Regional Police Commander (R.P.C.)  issued  an official statement that confirmed the killings of ten children in the Region in these past few days of January 2019, and the Police force is  apprehending about 28 suspects in relation to the crime, and the investigations are still going on, that the Police force in the Region is doing its  best to make sure the situations return to normal.

The Regional Commissioner of Njombe Region has come out in public to condemn the killings, saying the causes of these killings are witchcraft beliefs, whereby the murderers believe that they can use dead human body parts to get rich and breakthrough in business while some of them believe they will be successful in their political carriers. The Legal and Human Rights Center based in Dar es Salaam (L.H.R.C. ) a Non-Governmental Organization advocating for Human rights in Tanzania issued a statement of condemning this killing because it is a violation of Human Rights. The Spokesperson of the organization added that Human rights reports in Tanzania indicate that prior to every General Election here, a year towards, terrible killings happen and once elections are over the situation returns to normal. Therefore the organization’s statement somehow connects this butchery with some political ambitions, though that spokesperson did not say directly that the killings are connected to the upcoming General Election, she said experiences through Human rights reports do indicate so.
She further said that in the first half of the year 2018 from January to July 2018, nearly 6373 children have been the victim of acts of torture – “Vitendo vya ukatili” – here in Tanzania. This is according to their Human rights report which compiled the status of Human rights in Tanzania from July 2017 to July 2018.

The Inspector General of Police of Tanzania had an official visit to Njombe Region where the killings happened as a head of Police force in Tanzania. While in Njombe the I.G.P. said the causes of these killings is Witchcraft Beliefs, that through the dead bodies those Killers and those who sent them may use some parts of the dead and their blood for rituals to get rich and success in life. He further warned that The Police Force will make sure that those responsible will be brought to Justice, because they are criminals. The IGP further added that there is a need for the Police force as an institution to start a campaign of giving education to the public telling them that witchcraft beliefs are outdated in this 21st century, that they are no longer valid for making someone be either political or business successful. The IGP asked other sectors and professionals to join their efforts and air their voices to condemn this barbaric acts and get involved to educate the public to abandon this witchcraft beliefs of killing one another, for the expectations of being rich through taking away the life of innocent citizens.

Forest Scott Douglas Jacobsen In-Sight Publishing African Freethinker

In the Parliament of the United Republic of Tanzania at Dodoma central Tanzania where the Parliamentary session is going on, members of the Parliament got a chance to ask the Government about such saga and measures taken by the Government.  The Government through the Minister of Home affairs admitted about the occurrence of the killings of 10 children in Njombe Region, the Minister told the Parliament that the Governments is making efforts to make sure that the situations return to normal. The Minister further insisted that causes of such killings are not only witchcraft beliefs but also it is due to some kind of revenge between one family and clans, however, the ministry of home affairs has already sent a special team of experts from the Police force for further investigation on the matter.
On another development, the chief of Wabena people, the ethnic of Njombe has come out too and condemned the atrocities. He says the area has never experienced such acts before. On his part, he says he and his team associates (that includes traditional medicine men – “Waganga asilia” and the paramilitary – “Polisi jamii” / “Mgambo”) will do everything on their part to make sure such incidences do not happen again, saying they will also pray traditional way in the forest. He added that this recent incidence might have been caused by the emergence of unchecked charlatans who were playing tricks, in Swahili “Mazingaombwe”, claiming to heal or do divination to people in that way. In Tanzania, the Chiefs have no formal role to play as the government abolished chiefdom-ship far back soon after independence in the 1960s, to centralize power to the monolith central government but they are recognized informally as influential bodies traditional-wise and are consulted, get involved at such times of crisis.

This whole situation has caused a general panic to the people, locals of Njombe. There are fear and suspicion. People close their business early, everyone forced to guard, escort their young ones, to and from schools. There has developed suspicion to any stranger seen close to the children, also incidences of mob justice for any suspected, and it has backfired to the point where good Samaritan cannot help a child in need, fearful that his helping hand might be seen as wanting to take the kid away. This was pointed out by one taxi driver. On the other side, children have been told to run away from any stranger approaching them, even those who might want to help them. It has become a catch 22 situation.

Rocks and Water Scott Douglas Jacobsen In-Sight Publishing African Freethinker

During the burial of some of those kids in different occasions, the church pastors came with sermons that “there are those healthy and energetic individuals who don’t want to work, they simply want a short cut to be a success”. That “these are the ones causing trouble and miseries to others”. Another pastor said education was the cause – lack of it. He went further and asked the people to adopt “Kupanga uzazi” –  Swahili for spacing in their matrimonial relations so that they bring in to the world children they can afford to send to schools for education – implying ending up not believing in superstitions. Njombe is the area zone where Christianity Lutheran church from Germany was first established in the area during colonial (Germany) times over 100 years ago.

It is becoming a trend In Tanzania to witness abnormal killings of human beings in recent years. For instance some few years ago Tanzania has been infamous for Albino killings due to witchcraft beliefs and it was thought that Albino body parts could be used to make rituals to make someone get rich. Also, events of killings and taking away human skins, for rituals which were thought could make someone rich, but that wave went away. Again another wave came where older women with red eyes (the result of lifelong firewood use for cooking – its smoke affecting the eyes of women) were being suspected and got killed in large numbers the areas of Sukuma Land in the lake zone Regions of Mwanza and Shinyanga. Currently early this year it is now the killings of children in Njombe – southwestern Tanzania.

The Freethinkers secular Humanists organization in Tanzania Jichojipya-Think Anew on its part says that this scourge has to stop now. The society must be educated on the better and modern scientific methods of how anyone can become successful, be it in politics or business, in the normal rational /civil way without supernatural and irrational believes associated with these sacrifice killings. More so Jichojipya thinks it should be supported so that it embarks on a program to re-educate the society to rethink on its supernatural beliefs, and embrace rationalism, scientism, positivism and humanism outlooks in interpreting everyday phenomenon in the society and in nature.  It is time overdue, a herculean (hitherto pending) task that must be done. Let us all do something…re-educate the populace away from irrational and supernatural thinking. That needs to start NOW.  We all be the solution to this part of human barbarity of the 21 century, that very age of predominance of scientific explanations and technological breakthroughs…ooh what a paradox!?

Lucas is a Teacher, Historian, Lawyer, and an Advocate of the High Court in Tanzania.
Email- isamwaka01@gmail.com. +255754326296

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Teacher, Historian, Lawyer, and an Advocate of the High Court in Tanzania.

[2] Individual Publication Date: February 22, 2019: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/witchcraft.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Mwakalonge I. Witchcraft Belief and the Killing of Children in Tanzania, East Africa [Online].February 2019; 1(B). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/witchcraft.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Mwakalonge, I. (2019, February 22). Witchcraft Belief and the Killing of Children in Tanzania, East Africa. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/witchcraft.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): MWAKALONGE, I. Witchcraft Belief and the Killing of Children in Tanzania, East Africa.  African Freethinker. 1.B, February. 2019. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/witchcraft>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Mwakalonge, Isakwisa. 2019. “Witchcraft Belief and the Killing of Children in Tanzania, East Africa.” African Freethinker. 1.B. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/witchcraft.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Mwakalonge, Isakwisa “Witchcraft Belief and the Killing of Children in Tanzania, East Africa.” African Freethinker. 1.B (February 2019). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/witchcraft.

Harvard: Mwakalonge, I. 2019, ‘Witchcraft Belief and the Killing of Children in Tanzania, East Africa‘, African Freethinker, vol. 1.B. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/witchcraft>.

Harvard, Australian: Mwakalonge, I. 2019, ‘Witchcraft Belief and the Killing of Children in Tanzania, East Africa‘, African Freethinker, vol. 1.B., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/witchcraft.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Isakwisa Amanyisye Lucas Mwakalonge. “Witchcraft Belief and the Killing of Children in Tanzania, East Africa.” African Freethinker 1.B (2019):February. 2019. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/witchcraft>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Mwakalonge I. Witchcraft Belief and the Killing of Children in Tanzania, East Africa [Internet]. (2019, February; 1(B). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/witchcraft.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and African Freethinker by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and African Freethinker 2012-2019. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and African Freethinker with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2019-02-22

Interview with Yasmine Mohammed on Shutting Down Speech, Secular Activism, and Cherished Ideologies (Part Four)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 19.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fifteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: February 22, 2019

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,037

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Yasmine Mohammed is an Author and the Founder of Free Hearts, Free Minds. She discusses: shutting down speech; secular activism; and cherished ideologies.

Keywords: FHFM, Islam, Ex-Muslim, Yasmine Mohammed.

Interview with Yasmine Mohammed on Religion, Fundamentalist, and Denominations of the Left (Part Four)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview was conducted in early 2018.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Some of the individuals, it is not a pervasive phenomenon, but it is individuals who typically would be the centrist or center-right. They cannot be in a platform, for instance.

They are given a platform that is revoked, or they shut it down. There is at least a modicum of truth there that is not being allowed to be said. That someone is succeeding in winning in not being said.

Yasmine Mohammed: Because the narrative is being disrupted, the narrative is minorities are beautiful. People that need to be protected. That is it. If you say anything other than that, you are a racist bigot and Islamophobic, Nazi, blah blah blah.

Jacobsen: Even the value, it is a good value: tolerance and protection of the vulnerable.

Mohammed: It is. This is what I am saying. If liberals understood what they were doing, they would not be doing it. The problem is they do not understand what they are doing. They do not realize that they are supporting.

They think they are supporting a minority and an oppressed group, but they are not. They are supporting the oppressors. When you support the conservatives, the powerful rich theocracies, when you support Saudi Arabia and the Muslim Brotherhood; they are not being oppressed.

It is the women and the LGBT community, the atheists, and all of these people that are under those people that are being oppressed. It is ridiculous.

Jacobsen: It is also an image thing. We allow it as a culture, not a single person, but as a general phenomenon, so we were talking about fifteen, twenty minutes ago, about the Muslim Brotherhood.

You were saying their century-long plan. They are checking off most of their boxes. Their ‘centennial imperial strategy’ that then becomes a message. Their success sends with us sends a message to them. That we are sufficiently indifferent. That we are going to do your dirty work for you.

Mohammed: It is working beautifully. Another one of their plans. I watched it happen. So, it is an old strategy, divide and conquer. So, old, it has been done. You will think that we would see it a mile away.

When the Black Lives Matter thing happens, I was thinking, “No, there it is. The next line in the strategy. The divide and conquer here it is, it is happening.” But it did not take, everybody was thinking, “My God, civil war is going to happen, black versus white.”

It did not happen, but what ended up happening instead is the Right vs. Left. That is working like a charm. So, if you look back at the media that was pushing things, remember those little videos all the time the AG+ and Vice and Vox and whatever pushing all of the white guilt, pushing all of the Black Lives Matter stuff too, those media like AG+.

What is that? It is Al Jazeera who is funding all of this propaganda that is going through to the millennials and tugging at their heartstrings playing exactly they said they would. What do you have in Germany? People holding up signs, “Refugees welcome.”

Little kids with sandwiches and bottles of water being given to the refugees as they are walking in. They are using the good nature of these people against themselves they are using the white guilt. They are using the guilt of the Germans, especially, because they have a lot of guilt.

Germany was so easy to take over because German people they want too self-flagellate. They want to somehow repent from their past sins, so this is how they help to achieve it. So, they understand all of this.

They know all of this. They get how Western minds work. They understand history. They understand and it is a joke. It is a joke. it is so easy. Taking over Egypt, that is hard. That was their first job. They succeeded because Egyptians are hardcore.

Arabs, in general, they are not in the West. There is no grey area. This is about Arab people. They are black or white. You are in or out: yes-no. If they are going to be a Muslim, they are going to be a hardcore Muslim.

They are going to fly a plane into a building, no problem. That is the way they are so it was difficult to change those minds because they are not open-minded, grey area, wishy-washy people, but they succeeded with the more difficult task.

The West, the mindset of the Liberal values, Enlightenment values, Western values, this idea of equality and all of that stuff. That is easy. There is a thing that they say where they laugh at Jesus because it is mostly a Christian mindset over here.

They laugh. They say things, “Turn the other cheek, so I can chop off your head.” Muslims think of this as Western people. This is all a weakness. The fact that everybody is so good. Help your neighbor, all of this hippy Christian stuff – that is hilarious to them. They are like, “You guys are no problem…”

We are proving them right. Especially if you look at Canada, how we bend over? Someone wants a Bible study in a classroom. We say, “Absolutely not, get the Lord’s Prayer out.” But I want to have a Friday worship and have a congregation: “No problem, of course, absolutely: here is an empty classroom you can use. Oh no worries, nobody is going to keep an eye on what you are saying or what you are doing.”

When I start to think about it, it is quite depressing. It makes me feel I want to move to South America.

Jacobsen: The first case is removing a religious murmuring, statement, or prayer from a public setting. People paying public tax money for that are right. Many of them will probably be non-Catholic, at least, so that is a secular thing.

That is the appropriate thing to do within our values.

Mohammed: Yes, it is.

Jacobsen: But then to allow the others are against that value. It is not that it makes me uncomfortable. It is a violation of a standard, not a norm, but of a standard that is set, that is derivative from the values that we hold.

Mohammed: We need to be unapologetic about our values. We have come to this doubt of progress, not easily. We had to fight for it. People have lost their lives for it. People have suffered for us to enjoy this. Why are we allowing the past to come back and haunt us again?

Jacobsen: Also, religion is young. There is tribal get together. Those are super old, but some religions are four thousand or six thousand years old, tops. This is especially important for things that are new: women’s rights and human rights.

They have barely existed in robust present form for a century or two. This is a particular risk we have been emphasizing. We have had two millennia to fourteen hundred years. How have they been for women? Maybe, a mild argument can be that for the time they were some progressive things, maybe, but not for now.

Mohammed: 6th century.

Jacobsen: Right but now my feeling based on rough knowledge on things is that women’s rights are new and, therefore, fragile, the intervention of this worldview is destabilizing to them.

Mohammed: Totally, and what you are saying is so true, that is what makes me nervous because they are so much hardened and experiences and set. They are in a better position than we are. Christianity in the West anyway. It is being castrated. It is not going to, but Islam is not.

Islam is young and verdant, strong and successful, and rich and powerful, politically and economically. It is a real threat and, as you said, our values are fragile and new compared to their values. However, we are always being killed. We never had power, still do not have power.

In only in the past five years, I have been comfortable saying publicly, “I am an atheist.” I have only been comfortable in using that word after even five years. That estimate is probably being generous.

So, for years, I said I was Agnostic or I said, “I am not religious.” You begin to use euphemisms because you do not want people to think that you are some evil hellion that is going to eat their baby. That is Canada, so imagine areas conservative the U.S. or the Muslim world.

Obviously, how much worse it is for an atheist over there, Atheism is considered terrorism in Saudi Arabia now. That is what it is deemed.

2. Jacobsen: So, if we take a conclusive look at the extensive discussion we had over the last few hours, and if we look at the situation, not through the lens of religion, and religion’s contents and countries, what do you see as the future of secularism and religious activism in general?

Mohammed: So, secularism or irreligious people, you were saying. We are scattered all over the place. We are not supporting each other. We haven’t felt the need to glom on to each other. Somehow, we need to form a political party.

But in the same way that religious people have a central authority: let’s say that Catholics, they have the Pope in the Vatican City. Muslims they have Saudi Arabia. They got Mecca, Medina. We are important. We are relevant.

We are a significant number, what we have to say is valuable and important. This is the first time in history that we can say it publicly, in some areas of the world. We can say it publicly and not be beheaded for it.

It is not blasphemy. It is okay. We can finally have a show of strength and if we are able to do that, if we are able to somehow get together and be something, then we will be able to support all of the secular liberal people in the rest of the world, in the areas of the world where they cannot speak up lest they are killed.

So, at least, they will know that there is some central authority that is willing to help them in some way or to support them in some way or at least to know that we exist and that we can be the change we want to see in the world.

We are complaining that liberals have betrayed us because they are not supporting the liberals in these minority groups, in the Muslim world. We can be that instead. We are saying that liberals are treating Christianity in a sum, differently.

They are, atheists can come forward and say, “Fuck all of your religions, we are not going to treat you any differently. We have CFI. We have the American Atheist Association.” We have this, but it is not good enough.

We need something big and strong and loud and united. I do not know how that is going to happen, but that is what we need.

Jacobsen: We need a Judean People’s Front.

Mohammed: I do not even want to say a political party because it is not a specific country. We are humanist.

Jacobsen: It is long term thinking than political thinking is.

Mohammed: It is long term thinking than political thinking, absolutely. So, what is it going to take? Do we need to – somebody was saying we should – all move to Greenland?

Jacobsen: Iceland is number one.

Mohammed: So, maybe, Iceland can be our new Mecca for humanists or something like that.

Jacobsen: Tops the ranking, it has for years for equality for men and women. A study came out saying that 100% of people under 25 said that they do not believe that the world was created by Creator or divine architect.

Mohammed: So, maybe, that is what we need. Maybe, we need Iceland too, but that is what we need in the short term. What we need to do is we need to support people who have our ideas, we should support people based on their ideas, not their identity. That is what we need.

That is the short term solution. It boggles the mind how many liberals will jump down the throat of anybody that says anything about Christianity, but if somebody says something about Islam it is defended. That is the problem, that is what needs to stop.

We need to stop. We need to be able to differentiate between Islam and Muslims as liberals. We should be supporting minorities. Yes, we should be supporting oppressed people. Yes, people are human being’s and not religions.

That, maybe, the problem is that they think Islam is a culture. They think Muslims are a people. Muslims are not people. There are hundreds of countries. It is saying Catholics are a people. There are Italian Catholics. There are Filipino Catholics. There are Mexican Catholics.

They are all over the world, different Catholics. They do not speak the same language. They do not eat the same food. They do not have the same conditions. They are not the same people. They are different ethnic groups. They are different cultures. They share a religion.

Islam is the same thing. If you are going to support Mexicans or you are going to support Italians or you are going to support Filipinos, then that is fine, wonderful, dandy, do that, but do not support Catholicism.

They do not understand the parallels are perfectly clear. It is there, but maybe it is because the issue is that I am born and raised in this stuff. I was born and raised in Canada, but in a Muslim household of Arab culture.

3. Jacobsen: But you also hear the Platonic argument too. Whenever something bad happens within a person’s cherished ideology or worldview plus practice, or suggested practice, they go, “That is not the real [fill in the blank].”

It is Platonic. I do not care about that. How are the people that believe that stuff in general acting? Most are acting decently. However, what is going on?

Mohammed: Communists can say the same thing, right? How many millions of people have to die before you say, “Maybe, this ideology is not so great”?

Jacobsen: Also, some preachers do it to put all burden of responsibility of belief on the follower, which is a beautiful way of doing it, where “You are not praying sincerely enough” or “You do not have the best belief in the faith and so on…”

Mohammed: So, because I was born in a Western world but in a Muslim household, I am able to see the distinction so clearly, but somebody who is American or Canadian and has had no interaction or understanding about the Muslim world or about Islam, or about Muslims.

It is all so foreign. It is also intricate and confusing. So, you can understand how they confuse the religion with the culture, with the people. All of that. They do not get that there are Pakistani Muslims and Egyptian Muslims, Indonesian Muslims. Maybe, they need to understand the difference between people and religion.

4. Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Yasmine.

Mohammed: No problem, Scott.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Author; Founder, Free Hearts, Free Minds.

[2] Individual Publication Date: February 22, 2019: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mohammed-four; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Interview with Yasmine Mohammed on Shutting Down Speech, Secular Activism, and Cherished Ideologies (Part Four) [Online].February 2019; 19(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mohammed-four.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2019, February 22). Interview with Yasmine Mohammed on Shutting Down Speech, Secular Activism, and Cherished Ideologies (Part Four). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mohammed-four.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Interview with Yasmine Mohammed on Shutting Down Speech, Secular Activism, and Cherished Ideologies (Part Four). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 19.A, February. 2019. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mohammed-four>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “Interview with Yasmine Mohammed on Shutting Down Speech, Secular Activism, and Cherished Ideologies (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 19.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mohammed-four.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Interview with Yasmine Mohammed on Shutting Down Speech, Secular Activism, and Cherished Ideologies (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 19.A (February 2019). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mohammed-four.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2019, ‘Interview with Yasmine Mohammed on Shutting Down Speech, Secular Activism, and Cherished Ideologies (Part Four)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 19.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mohammed-four>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2019, ‘Interview with Yasmine Mohammed on Shutting Down Speech, Secular Activism, and Cherished Ideologies (Part Four)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 19.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mohammed-four.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Interview with Yasmine Mohammed on Shutting Down Speech, Secular Activism, and Cherished Ideologies (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 19.A (2018):February. 2019. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mohammed-four>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Interview with Yasmine Mohammed on Shutting Down Speech, Secular Activism, and Cherished Ideologies (Part Four) [Internet]. (2019, February; 19(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mohammed-four.

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In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2019. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2019-02-18

Ask Sally 2— Feedback on AIPAC: ‘Vitriol’ and Israel

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee: Sally Buxbaum Hunt

Numbering: Issue 2: Here We Go

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: Question Time

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: February 18, 2019

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 772

Keywords: AIPAC, Israel, Sally Buxbaum Hunt, Scott Douglas Jacobsen.

Sally Buxbaum Hunt is a Sexual Education, Sex-Positive, Separation of Church and State Activist and Organizer, and a Progressive. Here we talk about AIPAC and Israel.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: You have some thoughts on AIPAC and the news based on the news, recently. Why have these been of interest in the past couple of weeks?

Sally Buxbaum Hunt: It has been difficult seeing the mainstream media narrative that Ilhan Omar has been antisemitic based on her remarks. It has been the main messaging from most of our politicians. That is unacceptable because it’s not true.

Ilhan Omar did not say anything antisemitic. I say this as someone of Jewish heritage myself. But you don’t have to be of Jewish background to understand these very basic facts, because all she did was point out the simple fact that these lobbying groups, e.g., AIPAC, want politicians to give extra tax dollars to US politicians so those politicians support Israel.

That is the whole point of AIPAC. They are a pro-Israel lobbying group. AIPAC raises money, gives this money to politicians, and then those politicians should give unwavering support to Israel and special privileges to Israel.

That this lobbying group, AIPAC, is giving extra tax dollars — US tax dollars — to Israel’s government. This is true. This is absolutely true [Laughing]. Ilhan Omar was pointing this out. Then many people freaked out and said this was antisemitic.

She even was forced to apologize by Democratic leadership. When I saw her apology, I appreciated that she still made the point about the problem with lobbying groups in the apology, where she did not want to alienate them. It was not her goal.

She was pressured to make the apology. She definitely shouldn’t have been pressured to apologize at all. Because she said absolutely nothing wrong. Part of this fake controversy is just because she’s a Muslim. A big problem is the extreme bigotry against Muslims, and also that she is black.

That makes her a bigger target. I think racism is another reason here. She is a target for being a Muslim woman and a black woman, especially [Laughing] being both of those at the same time. But this idea that no one can criticize AIPAC or can ever criticize Israel is irrational and illogical.

It makes no sense. Israel is not the same as Jews. Jewish people are not a monolith. There are all sorts of views and ideas, political ideologies. Not every Jewish person supports the government of Israel. Not every Jewish person supports the occupation of Gaza and the West Bank. That is what this issue is about.

No one should support the occupation. That is the bottom line. Palestinians who live in the occupied territories are trying to live their lives. Their home communities are constantly under military occupation. They are constantly being terrorized, brutalized, harassed, and oppressed. They don’t even have voting rights regarding the government that rules over them every day.

They cannot live freely. They are in dire poverty and in utter hopelessness. Anyone who mentions Palestinians being angry at Israel; they are justifiably angry at this government. That is the main point that I think everyone needs to understand here.

The government of Israel is an occupying force of a government. They are a warmongering and oppressive government to Palestinian civilians living in these occupied territories. That is the point right there. Ilhan Omar is right to point out AIPAC, the pro-Israel lobbying group, has one mission. That is to raise money for politicians, so they give unwavering support from US taxpayer funds that are supporting this occupation.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Sally.

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In-Sight Publishing and Question Time by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com and https://medium.com/question-time

Copyright 

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time 2012-2020. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2019-02-17

Ask Mark 2 — Squeezing More Some Things from Nothings

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee: Mark Gibbs

Numbering: Issue 2: Here We Go

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: Question Time

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: February 17, 2019

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,305

Keywords: Mark Gibbs, Nones, religion, Scott Douglas Jacobsen.

Mark Gibbs is an independently educated nonbeliever, who has some interesting and precise thoughts about the terminology in the survey data presented to the unbelieving community over the years. Here, in this series, we will explore some of the content, starting with the term “Nones” in an extended conversation continuing from Ask Mark 1 — Somethin’ About Nothin’: The Nones Ain’t Nothin’.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What words seem to more accurately describe the intended grouping than the Nones?

Mark Gibbs: That depends on what the intended grouping is!

You see, Professor Kosmin wasn’t wrong. ARIS is the American Religious Identification Survey; the whole point of it is which religion you identify with… not what you believe. Kosmin knew exactly what he was talking about: he was talking about people who don’t identify with any religions… he was not talking about nonbelievers; they’re not the same thing.

The problem isn’t the term itself. The widespread misuse and misunderstanding of the term is a symptom of a deeper problem: We’re generally terrible at differentiating between affiliation with a religion, and believing in that religion. That’s always a problem — for example, Islamophobic bigots make a point of not differentiating between believers in extremist Islamic ideologies and literally everybody who calls themselves “Muslim”. But it becomes particularly acute when you start talking about the lack of a religion: are you talking about the lack of affiliation, or the lack of belief? Or both?

If your goal is actually specifically to talk about people who are not affiliated with any religions, then “None” is exactly the right term.

But…

Most people who use the term “None” are not merely interested in affiliation or identification. And that is where the trouble starts. Most people use the term “None” as a synonym for “nonreligious”, or even “atheist”, and that’s how you end up with nonsense like that Atlantic headline, and dangerous misconceptions like those about atheist mental health.

It’s not the term’s fault. Even without the term, most people naïvely assume that the less engaged you are with religions, the more nonreligious you are. I mean, that just sounds tautologically true, right? Unfortunately, as is usually the case where religion and faith is involved, reality is much messier. Since it’s possible to have your own, idiosyncratic religious beliefs, it’s possible to be extremely religious without being affiliated with any religion. And, of course, people can, and do, simply assert that they have nothing to do with any religions despite holding the exact set of beliefs of one. (The inverse is also true: It’s possible — and very common — to be affiliated with a religion, but not actually hold any religious beliefs. We all know people like this; some of us were those people.)

And most of the time, affiliation is useless as a categorization anyway. There’s lots of evidence out there that fundamentalist Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, and so on have more in common with each other than they do with the moderate, casual, or progressive members of their own religions. If you tell me that some percentage of Christians hold some awful belief, that’s pretty unhelpful information in practice, because it’s far too broad a brush: “Christians” includes both the extreme social conservative, far-right, isolationist Mormon sects of rural Alberta, and the progressive, left-leaning United Church of Canada churches in suburban Toronto. It’s a given that awful sects will hold awful beliefs! I’d be far more interested in learning how prevalent the awful belief is among casual religious believers — and it doesn’t really matter whether they’re Christian or something else; that would better tell me whether it’s something to be concerned about or not. That would be more useful in assessing whether the problem is only extreme religion, or if even moderate religion is a concern.

So my position, technically, isn’t really: “never use ‘None’”. It’s: “only use ‘None’ where it actually applies”. However, because of all the confusion around the term (and because we almost never mean it in it’s technically correct sense), it’s probably better to just not use it at all. (Though, even that probably won’t help, because people will probably incorrectly interpret any way of saying “unaffiliated” as meaning “lacking belief”.)

But I don’t want to just dodge the question, so let me see if I can actually give an answer….

This is a lot more complicated than you’d think, because you will probably end up not just changing the one term, but changing your whole typology. That’s what Pew had to do last year, when they came up with a new typology to help understand religiosity. They ended up with seven categories, including two “non-religious” categories: one that’s mostly atheists without any supernatural beliefs, and one that’s mostly “spiritual but not religious” types that believes in psychics and crystal energy.

Pew’s new grouping actually illustrates how useless the “None” grouping is (unless all you care about is specifically affiliation, and not beliefs). The “Solidly Secular” are pretty much synonymous with “nonbelievers”… yet 24% of them identify with a religion. The “Nones” include most of the “Solidly Secular” and “Religion Resisters”… but it also includes 30% of the “Spiritually Awake” and 17% of the “Relaxed Religious”, and even 22% of the “Diversely Devout”. So “Nones” doesn’t just include a lot of people who aren’t nonreligious, it also excludes at least a quarter of those who are!

I like the idea of the Pew grouping, though it is very US-centric. It focuses a little too heavily on Christianity, talking about “the Bible” repeatedly in its grouping questions — it asks if you believe specifically in “God as described in the Bible”… well, how are Jews and Muslims supposed to answer that? Heck, what’s a Sikh to do? (I strongly suspect that if Pew asked about belief in God without adding “as described in the Bible”, number of people who answer “yes” in the “Religion Resisters” category would skyrocket.)

I think I would do something very similar to what Pew did, though less US/Christianity-focused; so asking about belief God or a god generally, not specifically “God as described in the Bible”. But I’m not a fan of the name “Solidly Secular”. “Secular” already has too many other meanings, and this is just guaranteed to sow more confusion. For example: technically, devout Catholics who aren’t clergy are secular. But don’t get me started on all the problems with the word “secular”.

I think a better term for that group would be “unbelievers”, because these are people who don’t believe in the tenets of religion — whether they still identify with a religion or not — and also don’t believe in other woo that isn’t normally called “religious”, like psychics and pyramid power. So I think I’d use a more generic variant of Pew’s typology, but with “Solidly Secular” renamed to “[something] Unbelievers”; I’ll leave it up to Pew to come up with a cute alliteration.

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In-Sight Publishing and Question Time by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com and https://medium.com/question-time

Copyright 

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time 2012-2020. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2019-02-15

Interview with Yasmine Mohammed on Religion, Fundamentalist, and Denominations of the Left (Part Three)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 19.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fifteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: February 15, 2019

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 6,287

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Yasmine Mohammed is an Author and the Founder of Free Hearts, Free Minds. She discusses: Dave Rubin and Colin Moriarty; splits of the Left; concerns for Canada; religions plagiarizing from one another; and demographics, rights, and what to do with fundamental beliefs.

Keywords: FHFM, Islam, Ex-Muslim, Yasmine Mohammed.

Interview with Yasmine Mohammed on Religion, Fundamentalist, and Denominations of the Left: Author; Founder, Free Hearts, Free Minds (Part Three)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview was conducted in early 2018.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, what are going to be the topics thematically across them that you will be discussing when you are going to be on stage with people like Dave Rubin and Colin Moriarty?

Yasmine Mohammed: That topic for that speaking tour is all free speech, is all going to be about free speech. So, for someone like me who’s coming, as you said, America has won the privilege to speak freely more than any other country.

There is self-censoring with things like Islamophobia and whatever. What is missing, it is for them to be around them. They are focused so much on themselves. A lot of navel gazing going on in the U.S. You would not believe it.

You have the internet. You do not even have any excuse. We are all connected. However, there are so many other parts in the world where people would literally be killed either by the authorities – in Saudi Arabia, you are considered terrorist by the government if you speak out against Islam – or, in countries like Pakistan, where the people in the public will kill you.

You heard about Marshal Khan. He is a university student.

Jacobsen: Yes.

Mohammed: He asked the question, “So if Adam and Eve were the only two humans, does that mean we are all children of incest?” Which is a basic question, I remember asking that as a child. But, “How dare he ask such a question!”

That was so offensive enough for the people that were living in his dorm with him. They stormed his room, broke down his door, attacked him, took him out to the middle of the quad, and beat him to death.

Hundreds of students, that is what happens in those countries. So, when we talk about free speech and people here do not understand the value of it, they do not understand – you said the privilege – they do not understand people have died for us to be able to speak our mind.

I know what it feels like not to be able to speak my mind in my own house. I cannot even have the thoughts in my own head. Anybody that grew up in a repressively religious household would understand what I am saying.

I remember hearing a girl who escaped from North Korea. They are taught that the bugs and the birds, the mice, everybody, reports back to the fearless leader whenever they see them doing anything.

They are also told that he can read their minds, as we are told that God can read your mind. So, you are even afraid to have the thoughts in your own head. I speak to ex-Muslims all the time that are writing to me, then deleting their accounts.

I cannot even respond to them, but they need to get it. They need to say how they feel. They want somebody to hear them because they can never express their opinions on these matters. People born and raised in some areas of the West so removed from the struggle that they do not understand the privilege that they have and then they squander it.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali said, “They spit on freedom because they do not know what it is to not have freedom.” Another said something that was so poignant and perfect. She said, “It is if you have a third generation kid from a wealthy family, where the person that earned the wealth was three generations ago.”

So, you are talking about Paris Hilton or Paris Hilton’s kids. They have no idea what it means to live hand to mouth. They have no idea what it means to work for their money. They have no concept. They cannot have any concept.

So, that is what it feels like when you are talking to some people in the West sometimes about these freedoms and privileges. Those freedoms and privileges that they have. They do not see these reams of privileges. They find reasons to complain. They bitch about mansplaining and manspreading.

How do you – for shame, how do you even consider that feminism when there are women getting their clitorises cut off? There are children, little girls, in China that are being killed. However, your focus is on ridiculous teeny tiny things.

They do not broaden. They do not go around because they are too busy looking at each other. Everyone wants to be oppressed in the States these days. The cool thing to do, right? I would love to give you all of my oppression points.

I would love to trade lives with you and to not have all of this shit to overcome. I would love to. These people want some reason to say, “I am a victim.” You do not understand how lucky you are and instead of appreciating what you have. You are looking for some reasons to claim some victimhood.

Look at Linda Sarsour, talking about how Muslims in American today, because of Islamophobia, they have it worse than the black slaves in the U.S. did!

Jacobsen: That is a stretch.

Mohammed: So, anyway, I could go on and on about this.

2. Jacobsen: To simplify, I want to reflect on both perspectives. One the one hand, you have people concerned about livelihood, wellbeing, so either they are going to be killed or destroyed in some manner, possibly some body parts might disappear.

On the other hand, you have highly developed nations with most of these privileges and rights established. The concerns then become local, prosocial, and limited to their context, where things that would be of mild annoyance. Do not explain: I do not need to have things explained to me that are obvious, or the mansplaining example.

Given the context that people are coming from, they are both valid at the same time. There is legitimacy. You make change relative to your context, but the lack of, at least, awareness of what is going on in other countries, is important and that is the major issue.

Mohammed: Maybe, I should make myself clear. It is important to make myself clear. I am not belittling. Obviously, there is no such thing as a utopia. As human beings, we only grow as we progress. We are always going to have to make things better because that is what we should be doing.

So, yes, let’s always try to make things better, let’s always try to improve our situation, our society, etc., we always have to make things better. My problem is that when those people that are talking about manspreading and mansplaining are standing in the way and prohibiting people that are trying to work on women that are in worst situations.

So, for example, the Far-Left in America. They can be defined by the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC), the Linda Sarsours, the Far-Left, the Hillarys – not always – or the Hillary corner, but that group of people are the same people that will call Ayaan Hirsi Ali an anti-Muslim extremist.

They will shut her down. She was not able to go to Australia and give her talk there because she was called a white supremacist.

Jacobsen: What was the reason given?

Mohammed: Because she is a Nazi. It is a series of slurs. They throw those at a black woman from Somalia, who is a ‘white supremacist’ now. If you say something, if you do not follow the narrative of the Left, therefore, you are a Nazi, white supremacist, Alt-Right bigot, etc.

Jacobsen: It is this branch on the Left.

Mohammed: It is this branch on the Left. However, what I am talking about, if those people on the Left were busy fixing their problems and did not stand in the way of other people fixing their problems, we would be okay.

But instead, when you have somebody talking about women going to prison for being raped in the UAE, the responses from people on the Left are “Now, you are going to be the savior. You are a white man. You do not care about Muslim women.” What?

When they do that thing they are taking the attention away from the woman that is shining a light on this problem, I was born and raised in that world and nobody cared. Nobody cared for so many generations.

It is people in Africa and Asia who are drinking dirty water. Water in our toilets are cleaner than what they have to drink. Nobody gives a shit. Nobody cares because our water is clean, right? That is the way the Islam problem was for so many generations.

Nobody over here cared because it was over there, so it does not affect us. I understand that we cannot solve all of the world’s problems. Obviously, what is happening in North Korea, let it happen over there, we do not care because it is not affecting our daily lives.

However, Islam now is affecting our day to day lives. Islam affects my life as much as it affects your life. So, for the people who are in the Muslim world who are me, they are glad that somebody pays attention.

They are elated when they see Richard Dawkins writing about the atrocities of Islam. They are happy when they see Maajid Nawaz talking about what Sharia law dictates. They are excited that Adam Princely gives a shit, worries about the fact that ninety-percent of them are victims of FGM.

They are like “Yes, finally, somebody is paying attention.” Then you have these Left-leaning liberals come in and saying, “Shoo! That is Islamophobia. Does not talk about that.” You are relegating these people back all of these generations with everyone ignoring them and not caring about the problems that they are having.

Jacobsen: How do they feel when they have that happen?

Mohammed: A hundred-percent betrayed. So betrayed, you would not believe. They are liberals like you and I. So, imagine being in that country, there, everything is about the Muslim world in a general sense because there are over fifty countries there.

If you look at Canada, which is a bad example, let’s look at the USA, most of America is liberal. However, there is a belt of staunchly conservative people but most people are for Western liberal enlightenment values, right?

In the Muslim world, you have to flip that around. In the Muslim world, your majority are staunch conservatives. You have a belt. They do not usually live together. they are usually fractured and hidden all over the place.

This belt is the open-minded liberal secular-leaning people like you and me. Muslims are not atheists, are not Christians. It is irrelevant. I do not care about what their religion is or what their religion is not.

The point is that they believe in liberal values. They believe in human rights. We have that in common. So, those people over there that cannot even speak to each other because if they speak to each other their neighbors might tell their cops on them.

They all end up in prison for terrorism. That person stuck in that world is trying to speak up. They are being silenced by somebody in the West, in a free country, who should be their ally. When you are a liberal person, where do you look?

When you are a liberal in the Middle East or in the Muslim world, where do you look for allies? Liberals or moderates in the West. “Those are the people that will support me.” Instead, what do you find, those people are telling you to shut up because you are racist and you are a bigot and you are an Islamophobic.

It is the ultimate betrayal and treachery. I cannot explain to you how bad that feels for them. We are supporting the Right-wing conservative Muslims. Even Obama, Obama was friendly with the Muslim Brotherhood, right? How?

They are a terrorist organization deemed by Egypt, deemed by Saudi Arabia, deemed by terrorists. If Saudi Arabia is deeming this organization a terrorist organization, they are probably a terrorist organization. Right? So, then, you got Bernie Sanders who is the most Left-wing person possible in the United States congratulating Linda Sarsour.

Sanders is calling her progress. That is what we have. We have the Left-wing, the conservative Muslims. The Left-wing, the conservative Christians would never be aligning: never.

Jacobsen: They have been perpetual enemies.

Mohammed: Perpetual, they should be perpetual enemies with conservative Muslims as well. They should be aligning with liberal Muslims, but they are doing the opposite. They are supporting conservative Muslims. They are ignoring the liberal Muslims.

Jacobsen: As you are noting even with a scattered population, you have seen the same statistics. You probably know more than I do about this stuff. But, in Saudi Arabia, 5% are atheist. They are not a bloc. They are not organized, obviously.

Mohammed: No. No, they cannot even speak to each other. We had Hana Ahmed on our third episode. She said she lived in Saudi Arabia as an atheist for five years without ever speaking a word to anybody about the fact that she was an atheist.

So, she would be one of the people filling in that hole, saying, “I am an Atheist, but that is it.” Five years of being an atheist and never being able to express that. That is how everybody is over there. They cannot say anything. They have Twitter – they have anonymous Twitter; that is what they have. How do Twitter and Facebook act? Shut them down.

3. Jacobsen: What are your concerns in Canada, where the things arise, for instance, such as blasphemy?

Mohammed: Scott! You are getting the blood boiling today.

Jacobsen: You are going to Vegas soon!

Mohammed: Right, I will relax there, in front of the pool. I was not surprised M103 passed. I was born and raised here. I understand my people. It was unanimously passed in Ontario, so that was a bit of a surprise.

The federal one, there was a little bit of pushback. However, for it to pass unanimously in the Ontario Provincial Court, I was surprised because I did not think it was to that extent. That there is to pushback. I do not understand it.

I have discussions from people of the BC Humanist Association, which are supposed to be humanists. People that are clear. They understand, without a shadow of a doubt, that we should not have Christianity in schools, for example.

That we should not have blasphemy. It is not a law, but it is on its way there. If this motion were about ‘Christianophobia,’ BC Humanist Association for one would be up in arms.

These are the people that are fighting against Trinity Western University, rightly so for their LGBT garbage. However, when it comes to Muslims and Islam, all of a sudden their minds do not work. All of a sudden they cannot treat this religion the same as that religion.

All of a sudden they cannot see that a conservative Christian is no different than a conservative Muslim. These are socially conservative people and we should be standing in the way, of either of these people, allowing their values into the public sphere.

4. Jacobsen: One is an Arabic version of the other anyway, right? In terms of the text, it is plagiarized. It is the same thing.

Mohammed: Same thing!

Jacobsen: It is plagiarized.

Mohammed: That is right. It is plagiarized. We would never take a woman in an Amish bonnet and put a Nike swoosh on it or put her on the cover of Elle Magazine or Vogue or Playboy. It is absolutely ridiculous!

How do they not that it is exactly the same thing? What it is, it is bigotry.

Jacobsen: It is successful marketing. There is a separation of ideas and people in one, and not in the other.

Mohammed: Yes, I do not even know how it is successful marketing to be honest because if you look at the statistics. You will find that less than half of one-percent of Muslim women wear the hijab. One-percent of Muslim in the U.S., let’s say half of them are women, less than fifty-percent of American Muslim women wear hijab

So, it is a small minority of people wearing hijab, of Americans wearing hijabs. So, it is stupid for you to spend that money, putting hijabs in all your magazines and putting that Nike swoosh on it and all that stuff. There is no revenue that is going to come to you from this. It is virtue signaling.

That is the only thing you are going to get.

Jacobsen: Also, there is a market for it too. So, a company that does that. That aims to target virtue signification, signifiers. There is a population of reactionaries that go, “Oh, they are socially conscious!”

Mohammed: Nike, they are so nice and non-racist. However, my frustration is, what it is? It is exactly this. It is when Richard Spencer said: “Hail Trump.” Everybody lost their mind, rightfully so, but when Linda Sarsour talks about a jihad on Trump everybody it is: “Ah, do not worry about it, it is a word. Meh, nothing.”

“Hail” is a word too, but these are trigger words. These are words that have meaning. These are words that have history. These are words that have caused significant damage. Why they can only see that word when it is in German and how wrong it is to be using that but they cannot see that when a word is in Arabic is being used, all of a sudden they belittle it.

That is the thing. Shadi Hamid wrote a book called Islamic Exceptionalism. Shadi Hamid by the

way works for the Brookings Institute, is paid by Qatar, so you can know where the money is coming from. He supports the Muslim Brotherhood blatantly.

This is a man is from Egypt, so a man from Egypt supporting the Muslim Brotherhood. I do not even know what to tell you. It is someone from Afghanistan supporting the Taliban. The Brotherhood has wreaked so much havoc in Egypt for generations.

Everybody hates them. Everybody has a family member that was killed by them or tortured by them. It is not far removed for Egyptians as it is for the rest of the world today – if things will change, if we do not change course.

So, Shadi Hamid wrote a book called Islamic Exceptionalism and in it he is talking about how Islam must be treated differently than all other religions. I was like “fuck you,” but you know what: he is absolutely correct. That is what is happening.

What Muhammad wanted, what the Quran wanted, what Islam wants, which is nobody criticizes the religion, it gets treated with a different set of rules than all other religions. It is superior to all other religions. Muslims are superior to all other people.

All of that is happening. It is happening. Freethinking educated people in the West are doing exactly that. When Hamid says there is a fatwa on his head for writing a book, what do we do? Do we condemn the people that are trying to kill this man for writing this book? No, we do not.

When the Charlie Hebdo people got killed for drawing cartoons what did the Left say, they say, “They were being disrespectful. They shouldn’t have been doing that. That was not nice.”

We are self-imposing the blasphemy laws. We are doing exactly what Mohammed wants. We are following it. This is his decree. We are accepting this. We are not Muslim. We do not need to. There are no laws keeping us in place. There are blasphemy laws over there keeping them in place, over here we are free.

But we are choosing not to, out of fear. I do not know, or out of fear or out of indifference, out of naivety. We think, “Ah, those black savages, what harm can they do. The Christians, however, they are scary.”

“The Christians, however, we have to be afraid of them and we have to keep them out our schools and out of our public sphere.” No, you keep the Christians out, and the Muslims out too. It is the exact same thing.

In fact, Christians do not have powerful, rich, filthy rich theocracies behind them, pushing their agenda. So, if we are going to look at it on a global level, Muslims are the bigger threat than Christians. What do we have? The Vatican City, right?

There is no Saudi Arabia. There is no Qatar. Look at this guy making alliances, look at Trump with his Muslim Ban, blah blah blah. What does he do? He goes over there and kisses their butts. These guys are not new at this, but they do see this is the other thing too. Scott, sorry to go on so many tangents, but I have so much to say.

Jacobsen: It is fine.

Mohammed: In the West, we think in four-year spurts. This is the problem. We think in four-year spurts. Our governments only think about getting re-elected or they think about their turn and after that, they give no fucks.

Over there, they can make literally – they have made – hundred-year plans because they are theocracies. They can do that. If you look at the hundred-year plan of the Muslim Brotherhood, you will find that they are doing exceptionally.

All of the boxes are being ticked. Everything that they promised us they would do, step by step, they’re not even hiding it. Everybody, you can go online. You can read their plan. It is all unfolding beautifully and perfectly.

In the 1950s, Anwar Sadat who was the president of Egypt was approached by the Muslim Brotherhood and they told him, “You need to make sure every woman in your country wears the hijab,” and he laughed at them.

The men in parliament were laughing and one man yells out, “Make him wear it.”

But look at Egypt now, they have succeeded. We were laughing at them too. That is the thing. We also scoffed at this dumb uneducated jihadist. They are never going to be able to do it here…look at Turkey! Turkey scoffed at them too.

In 2014, the pride parade was so full that the streets were packed with people, in 2017 being hit with tear gas. Nobody is allowed to march in the pride parade. So, many fits of rage, I have so much to say. They have switched the country.

They are not new to this process. They have done it so much. They did it throughout the Muslim world. They did it in Egypt. They did it in Iraq. They did it in Syria. They did in Libya. They have done it in Afghanistan. They have done it across the whole side of the planet.

Now, they are moving into Turkey. It is following the movements of the Ottoman Empire. So, what happens: remember all of that area that the Muslims had control over, The Ottoman Empire. When they lost, they lost control of the Ottoman Empire. At that point, they had to recede back into the Middle East again.

They sat together in Egypt. They said, “We need to reconvene. We need to realign. We cannot get our land back again through the sword the way we did the last time because the world has changed.”

By now, it is the 1820s. You cannot go with a sword chopping off heads anymore. So, “We have to find a different way to go about getting back our empire. How can we do that?” They decided at that point that they were going to get back their empire by using their government.

Their policies, they use the policies based on the good nature, basically, of the Europeans and the North Americans against themselves. They are going to use democracy and diplomacy against itself. It has worked like a fucking charm.

Then they have people like Tariq Ramadan, who is the grandson of Hassan al-Bana who started the Muslim Brotherhood. People like him were basically the seedlings. He was cultivated, born, and raised in the West.

He understands how to speak to Westerners. He understands how Westerners think. He was the perfect first one. There are so many like him now and Linda Sarsour is another one. She knows how to speak to Americans.

She is all, “Oh, we are all oppressed together. Black people, yay! I am one of you. Native Americans, I am one of you. White men, ugh!” She knows how to get them riled up. She knows how to speak to them in a language that they are going to respond to.

Exactly Tariq Ramadan, the country, the people, the way they think. She got herself in the fucking White House – that is how good they are. Do not forget the millions of dollars that are coming at them from these theocracies in the Middle East.

So, they have a lot of support. They have a lot of brains behind them. They have a lot of policy makers and they have a lot of thinkers. They are not novices at this, by the time they arrive. They have all of the practiced wisdom in the Muslim World.

They made some mistakes. They learned from their mistakes. They kept going. They did a good track record over there. The internet is full of pictures. If you compare Libya in the 50s, Libya today. Iran in the 50s, Iran today. Afghanistan in the 50s, Afghanistan today. any Muslim country you can think of, Google what it used to look like before and what it looks like now.

The 60s, 70s, every country is a different time because by the time they get to them and by the time they infiltrate them. It depends. A country like the Maldives because it is small: fifteen years. Fifteen years from a secular nation to an Islamic nation. Fifteen, that is all it took.

So, every country depending on how resistant the people are, depending on the number of the population, depending on all sorts of different factors, there is a different amount of time in each country, but they were gaining experience.

Experience, experience, experience. Now, they come into Turkey. Turkey is fucked. Now, it is every thing. They are getting their Ottoman Empire back again. They already infiltrated. It is too late, honest to God. If you heard the podcast with Douglas Murray and Sam Harris, but Germany forget it, gone. Sweden, gone.

France might have a chance. They could pull back. So, many areas of Europe. It is too late. You opened your doors. You did not check papers. You let people in by the millions and now your country has changed. You cannot get it back again.

Sweden has announced that they are shutting down their music festivals because too many women are getting raped. They cannot control it. Whenever they have a music festival, an inordinate number of women are being raped everywhere.

They say, “Fine shut down the music festival.” Then, what happened? One performer said, “Hey, why do not we have gender segregated music festivals?” And what everybody said, “That sounds great!”

So, now, we have gender segregated festivals in Sweden. What is next? Put a woman in a Burka, so she does not get raped? It is literally everything that they want is happening. Because we have oceans, we have borders over at North America and South America, we are still protected somewhat.

We still get to choose who we bring in. Europe, they have no choice. People walk across. So, we can still be, but we have to get it right. We are not getting it right. our mindset still hasn’t changed. Even in Europe, even in Germany, they should be the most alert.

They are still fighting it. They are still saying, “No, it is racism.” There was a woman that was raped. She would not say the ethnicity of the men that raped her because she did not want to come off as racist, so she said he was German. I can send you a link to this.

She did not want to say that he was a refugee. Then she went home after the rape kit, given the police officer’s false information about her rapist. Then she went home and her friend told her, “If you do not say the truth, this man is going to go off and rape another woman. That is going to be on your head.”

So, she went back to the police station and she told the truth. There was another case, with a man in Sweden this time, a man that was raped by his Somalian refugee that he kept in his house. He came to live in his house.

The man raped him and he did not want to press charges because he did not want the man to be sent back to Somalia again. That is how deep this white guilt is. It is insane. I had another story in my head. It went away.

But there are so many of them right. Then the UK, you heard of Rotterdam rape cases, thousands of girls. When you have a chance please listen to the Douglas Murray and Sam Harris podcast that they, what happened in Rotterdam, this is in the UK – many different areas of the UK not one but – this was in Rotterdam the first time that they discovered it. Thousands of girls were going missing.

The families were saying, “Those Muslims are kidnapping our children.” They were like, “That is racist.” Then some of the girls were escaping. They were coming and telling the police, “I was chained to a bed. I was gang raped daily.”

These are children right. These are from ten to sixteen, seventeen. These are the age groups of the girls that they were raping. They go to the police officers. They say, “This is what is happening to me.”

The police officers say, “No, that is racist” They never told the public because they did not want to come off as racist. By the time this story finally broke, thousands of girls were victims of gang rapes.

Then, what happened with Bill Cosby and any other situation? Once one story breaks, all the other cities – all across the UK, stories breaking everywhere. My god, we have a rape gang here too…we have a gang rape here too.

The country is littered with these rape gangs, okay? You are allowing your daughter to be raped rather than being called racist. That is the position we are in. That is how badly, how psychotically, people do not want to be called racist, Islamophobic, or a bigot.

I am like, “Who cares? Who the fuck cares if you have a choice of somebody calling you bad words, or this person being honored killed, this person getting their clitoris cut off, this person being gang raped? Which one is worse?”

The same thing is happening in Sweden. Same thing, they are selling their girls to be raped this is what I was going to tell you. In Sweden, you are not allowed to mention the race of the perpetrator when you are explaining to the police who was the criminal, any eye witness.

You are not allowed to mention race because then it comes off as racist. Have you ever heard anything so stupid in your life?

5. Jacobsen: I heard worse. However, that is absurd, though. If you are dealing with a crime you want, not necessarily demographics, but characteristics for a profile.

Mohammed: …description…

Jacobsen: Maybe, it saves money on ink when they are doing a sketch and printing it, but other than this…

Mohammed: How is that helpful to reduce crime, when you do not even know who the people are that are causing the crimes. How are you going to catch people when you do not know what they look like?

Jacobsen: Yes, and to relate this to our context in British Columbia, what are our issues? Some of them might be “God” in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Another one might be if you are to critique religion, especially the dominant one.

Seven out of 10 people are Christian roughly – four out of ten Catholic, three out of ten Protestant. If you were to critique either of those, it is not, “We are going to completely socially shun you. We will kick you out of the house.”

Mohammed: It is not nice. I would not make fun of people’s belief.

Jacobsen: So, it is a completely different context. There is a spectrum there, but along the spectrum of secular tolerant liberalized freedom. For a country, compared to many of the instances you been describing, they can be countries as theocracies.

For the society, sub-cultures, or sub-enclaves within, for instance, various European countries, or the inverse in some of those theocracies where, for want of a better term, there are pockets of Canada.

People scattered all over the place. They hold those liberal values. You do not talk about the supernatural to those who are secular to some degree, whether agnostic, atheist, or whatever else have you, but they cannot think about it. It is not permitted.

A lot of these issues as you are noting, as you are going from topic to topic, it seems like something with the individual tragic stories, individual rape cases, or even large cases with thousands of adolescent girls or younger, undergoing sexual assault of various forms.

These are related issues that have consequences on real people’s lives. What my sense from what you are telling me, it is (a) that is happening but (b), even more so, it is the indifference or denial that is ongoing.

Mohammed: Protection even, even if you are going to be indifferent and denial that it goes back, I grew up with indifference and denial. That was my whole life. I am used to that. However, on things that are changed, you are preventing criticism.

You are protecting these group of people that are oppressing. So, when you shut-down Maajid Nawaz and others, you are shutting down the receptors. You are shutting down the people that are trying to say, “Help us.” You are saying “Shhh, you are an Islamophobic person. You are an anti-Muslim, bigot.”

So, that is even worse than indifferent. Be indifferent fine, leave us alone, let people fight for their rights, but do not stand in the way and prevent them. Or do not support the people that are suppressing us including the Muslim Brotherhood.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Author; Founder, Free Hearts, Free Minds.

[2] Individual Publication Date: February 15, 2019: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mohammed-three; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Interview with Yasmine Mohammed on Religion, Fundamentalist, and Denominations of the Left (Part Three) [Online].February 2019; 19(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mohammed-three.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2019, February 15). Interview with Yasmine Mohammed on Religion, Fundamentalist, and Denominations of the Left (Part Three). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mohammed-three.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Interview with Yasmine Mohammed on Religion, Fundamentalist, and Denominations of the Left (Part Three). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 19.A, February. 2019. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mohammed-three>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “Interview with Yasmine Mohammed on Religion, Fundamentalist, and Denominations of the Left (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 19.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mohammed-three.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Interview with Yasmine Mohammed on Religion, Fundamentalist, and Denominations of the Left (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 19.A (February 2019). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mohammed-three.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2019, ‘Interview with Yasmine Mohammed on Religion, Fundamentalist, and Denominations of the Left (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 19.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mohammed-three>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2019, ‘Interview with Yasmine Mohammed on Religion, Fundamentalist, and Denominations of the Left (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 19.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mohammed-three.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Interview with Yasmine Mohammed on Religion, Fundamentalist, and Denominations of the Left (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 19.A (2018):February. 2019. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mohammed-three>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Interview with Yasmine Mohammed on Religion, Fundamentalist, and Denominations of the Left (Part Three) [Internet]. (2019, February; 19(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mohammed-three.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2019. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2019-02-12

Ask Mark 1 — Somethin’ About Nothin’: The Nones Ain’t Nothin’

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee: Mark Gibbs

Numbering: Issue 2: Here We Go

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: Question Time

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: February 12, 2019

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,797

Keywords: Mark Gibbs, Nones, religion, Scott Douglas Jacobsen.

Mark Gibbs is an independently educated nonbeliever, who has some interesting and precise thoughts about the terminology in the survey data presented to the unbelieving community over the years. Here, in this series, we will explore some of the content, starting with the term “Nones.”

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: You have been independently and intermittently researching the different terms and definitions of the formal and informal non-religious for ten years. One particular term does not sit well with you. It does not sit well with others. It is the “Nones”. Why this word?

Mark Gibbs: I can’t honestly claim that what I’ve done could be reasonably called “research”, but having written several times over the years about the demographics of atheism in Canada, and reporting on numerous studies and surveys about Canadian atheists’ beliefs or characteristics, that term is a bit of a pet peeve of mine. As near as I’ve been able to trace its origins, it seems to have literally started out as a joke.

The story I’ve heard is that in 2001, while doing the second American Religious Identification Survey (ARIS), Professor Barry Kosmin noted the massive growth in the number of people who did not affiliate with any religion — they’d almost doubled in size since the previous survey from 1990 (8.2% to 14.1%; these are US numbers). He realized there wasn’t really a term for this group — they were the “No religion” category, but what would you call them? “No-religionists”?

“Nonreligious” was a possibility. So was “non-faith” and “non-affiliated.”

But Kosmin rejected all of these. The “non” part bothered him. “Non-affiliated” would be like calling people “non-white,” he said. “We didn’t want to suggest that ‘affiliated’ was the norm, and every one else was an ‘other.’”

“Nomenclature,” he added, “is quite important in these things.”

So he had good intentions, but ultimately he came up with the term “none”: short for “none of the above”. The logic was that if people were presented with a list of religious denominations, those who were not part of any religion would choose “none of the above”.

“It began as a joke,” he said, “but now, like many of these things, it has taken on its own life.”

It’s really important that we clarify what “None” actually means, because there is a lot of confusion about it. “None” does not mean “not religious”, or “having no religion”. “None” means specifically having no religious affiliation. Surveys like ARIS and population censuses usually don’t ask about your beliefs; they usually ask a question that looks something like this: “Which religion or denomination do you identify with?” Note that the question is about affiliation, not belief. StatCan actually spells that out pretty clearly in its definition of religion (this is the definition used for the 2011 National Housing Survey, which was the last time the census* asked about religion; next time will be in 2021):

Religion refers to the person’s self-identification as having a connection or affiliation with any religious denomination, group, body, sect, cult or other religiously defined community or system of belief. Religion is not limited to formal membership in a religious organization or group. Persons without a religious connection or affiliation can self-identify as atheist, agnostic or humanist, or can provide another applicable response

It’s pretty clear that it’s not about what you believe, but rather about what religion/denomination you feel connected to, or affiliated with.

* The 2011 National Housing Survey is technically not the same thing as the 2011 census. In 2010, the Harper government scrapped the mandatory long-form census and replaced it with an optional survey. They justified it as answering calls from a tiny minority of people who objected to the government collecting personal data. The move sparked outcry from just about everyone who cared about social research and evidence-based governance, and, as predicted, was a disaster. The mandatory long-form census was restored by the Trudeau government in time for the 2016 census, but unfortunately we won’t actually get religion data until 2021. Until then, the dodgy 2011 National Housing Survey data is all we have, other than data from the 2001 census.

So a “None” is not someone with no religion. A “None” is someone who doesn’t affiliate with a religion or religious group.

That may sound like nitpicking, but it turns out that there is a huge difference, and it really matters.

For starters, it’s very common for extremely religious people to deny affiliation with all religions and religious groups. There are multiple reasons why that happens:

  • People who are extremely religious can also be extremely picky about their beliefs. Minor theological differences that most people don’t care about become major sticking points (I’m reminded of that classic Emo Philips joke). For example, a person might believe literally every single part of the Catholic dogma except that they reject dyophysitism (Jesus has two natures: divine and human) in favour of miaphysitism (Jesus has one nature that is both divine and human), and feel so strongly about it that it’s enough for them to reject any affiliation with Catholicism.
  • Extremely religious people often craft their own, idiosyncratic religious beliefs, usually by mixing together bits of existing religious traditions (a practice called syncretism). Sometimes that becomes the foundation for a whole new religion, but most of the time it’s just one person’s private faith.
  • It’s also not uncommon for extremely religious people to be in denial that their beliefs are religious. You sometimes hear people insisting that Christianity or Islam is “not a religion; it’s a philosophy”, or “way-of-life”.

Aside from the extremely religious, there’s also a rapidly growing trend of treating “religion” as a dirty word because of its perceived connection to things like denial of science and reality, and intolerance. To avoid that stigma, people will call themselves “spiritual but not religious” (SBNR).† It’s not uncommon to find people whose belief systems are exactly in line with most mainline Christian denominations, yet insist that they’re SBNR.

† I’m not entirely clear on how StatCan tallies people who explicitly declare themselves SBNR. I suspect they file them under “no religious affiliation, other”. It’s probably not all that common though; most SBNR people probably just check the “no affiliation” box and leave it at that.

The reason why this matters is because these people who are religious but unaffiliated make up the majority of the “Nones”. Here is a graphic showing data from recent Pew surveys of US adults.

The situation may be even more extreme in Canada. A 2014 Angus Reid survey found that a plurality of Canadians are SBNR, and even if you single out the people who reject religion, 41% of those are SBNR.

All this means that if you make the mistake of assuming that “None” means “nonreligious” — or, even worse, “atheist” — you’re going to make some huge mistakes. My favourite example of this is an article from The Atlantic last year with the absurd headline: “Atheists Are Sometimes More Religious Than Christians”. If you actually read the piece, it’s clear that they’re not talking about atheists at all, they’re talking about “Nones”:

Second, the researchers found that American “nones” — those who identify as atheist, agnostic, or nothing in particular — are more religious than European nones. The notion that religiously unaffiliated people can be religious at all may seem contradictory, but if you disaffiliate from organized religion it does not necessarily mean you’ve sworn off belief in God, say, or prayer.

The third finding reported in the study is by far the most striking. As it turns out, “American ‘nones’ are as religious as — or even more religious than — Christians in several European countries, including France, Germany, and the U.K.”

“That was a surprise,” Neha Sahgal, the lead researcher on the study, told me. “That’s the comparison that’s fascinating to me.” She highlighted the fact that whereas only 23 percent of European Christians say they believe in God with absolute certainty, 27 percent of American nones say this.

I need to stress that while the origin of the “None” categorization is censuses and surveys that are just counting people and tallying them up by their religious affiliation, it actually infects science done about the nonreligious. There is a tragic dearth of real science studying the nonreligious to begin with — for details, I recommend checking out Professor Melanie Brewster’s 2014 talk at Skepticon 7 — but a large chunk of the science that is done uses the aforementioned census and survey data in secondary data analyses. In plain English, researchers are not actually doing proper data collection, they’re simply using the data that’s already out there… which often doesn’t do a good job of separating the actual nonbelievers from the merely unaffiliated who are still very religious, when it even bothers to try.

So that’s the situation with the term “None”:

  • It doesn’t mean what most people think it means. It has nothing to do with being nonreligious. It’s only about affiliation; it’s only about identifying with a religion, not believing in that religion’s tenets.
  • The category is actually dominated by the “wrong” people. By “wrong” I mean: not the people “Nones” are generally assumed to be. Most people assume “Nones” are nonreligious. In fact, most “Nones” are very religious, and in some ways even more religious than the average person that affiliates with a mainstream religion.
  • The categorization has already negatively impacted science. In the talk linked above, Professor Brewster explains how lumping atheists in with the “unaffiliated” distorted psychological research for almost two decades, and led to false notions about the mental health and social success of atheists.
  • The categorization has already negatively impacted atheists. Following from the point above, those false notions about the mental health of atheists led to actual discrimination. To this day, you don’t have to look too far to find people repeating myths that “science” has proven that atheists are psychologically unhealthy.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Mark.

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License

In-Sight Publishing and Question Time by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com and https://medium.com/question-time

Copyright 

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time 2012-2020. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2019-02-11

Ask Dr. Robertson 5 — Self-Actualization, Boys, and Young Males: Solution:Problem::Hammer:Nail

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee: Dr. Lloyd Hawkeye Robertson

Numbering: Issue 2: Here We Go

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: Question Time

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: February 11, 2019

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,794

Keywords: Lloyd Hawkeye Robertson, Scott Douglas Jacobsen, self-actualization.

Dr. Lloyd Hawkeye Robertson is a Registered Doctoral Psychologist with expertise in Counselling Psychology, Educational Psychology, and Human Resource Development. He earned qualifications in Social Work too.

His research interests include memes as applied to self-knowledge, the evolution of religion and spirituality, the Aboriginal self’s structure, residential school syndrome, prior learning recognition and assessment, and the treatment of attention deficit disorder and suicide ideation.

In addition, he works in anxiety and trauma, addictions, and psycho-educational assessment, and relationship, family, and group counseling. Please see Ask Dr. Robertson 1 — Counselling and Psychology, Ask Dr. Robertson 2 — Psychotherapy, Ask Dr. Robertson 3 — Social and Psychological Sciences Gone Wrong, and Ask Dr. Robertson 4 — Just You and Me, One-on-One Counselling, as these are the previous sessions in this educational series. Here we talk about self-actualization.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Famously, so famous, in fact, as to become a common phrase indicative of common sense wisdom — which, as one may joke about ‘common sense,’ may be uncommon sometimes and other times not-so-wise, the late Abraham Maslow, American Psychologist, remarked on the existence of problems and tools to solve them:

I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail.

Dr. Philip Zimbardo, Professor Emeritus at Stanford University, and others — including Dr. Warren Farrell, who speaks in a pace and tone so as not to offend even the fly on the wall, for content reasons, obviously — continue to focus on some overlooked issues for males, young males and boys in particular; where as a collective, interrelated culture, these become issues for us, too. Maslow constructed the hierarchy of needs in the 1943 paper entitled A Theory of Human Motivation.

Zimbardo, who specializes in the psychology of evil (Stanford Prison Experiment in experiment and Abu Ghraib in reality, though this experiment came under more critical scrutiny, recently) and time perspective (e.g., living, mentally speaking, in the past, the present, or future), spoke on young men and boys since the early 2010s right into the present.

In particular, Zimbardo spoke on the failure of some boys and young men in multiple domains of life, where mainstream cultures — multinationally speaking — demand certain levels of performance and expect achievement of specific milestones by culturally affirmed ages for social approval. If not, then cue the epithets and societal reproval.

It is not an all-or-nothing evaluation, but it is a change in the ratio of the boys and young men succeeding compared to previous generations on average — and, especially, in contrast to the wonderful rise of girls and women. It becomes a dual-facet phenomenon of decline for boys and young men and incline for girls and young women with higher-order analysis implications, in time and in persistence of culture in bounded geography. Zimbardo reflected on the failures, by his estimation, as indicative of a hijacking or hacking of the hierarchy of needs by pornography, video games, and fatherlessness/(male-)mentorlessness — in part.

That is to say, with the self-fulfillment and psychological needs removed from the hierarchy of needs or ignored by the boys and young men, this left, at least, pornography, video games, and mentorlessness as central pillars in the decline of self-actualization and psychological needs, in boys and young men.

In the end, Zimbardo argues the result becomes a context in which young men and boys find themselves fulfilled as purely safety-and-physiological-needs-based beings, while also creating, in his research and assertions, i.e., not formally accepted by the academic psychological community in the DSM-5, “arousal addictions”: a psychological mode of a move towards pleasure and drift, or shift, away from pain in every life dynamic with a consistent need for novelty, which is an addiction for similar hyperstimuli with perpetual novelty, e.g., pornography and video games, as opposed to the same hyperstimuli, e.g., cocaine and gambling.

Of course, as a side remark, Dr. Leonard Sax, M.D., Ph.D., American Psychologist and Physician, describes endocrine disruptors and educational system changes as additional factors in this.

No planning, no contingencies, no notions of the future, no orientation towards larger life goals, and little or no incentive to move out of this hedonistic, presentist mental state. Did Maslow predict this psychological orientation of young men and boys? If so, how? Did anyone (else)?

Dr. Lloyd Hawkeye Robertson: Your pre-amble certainly covers a lot of ground, Scott! The short answer as to whether Maslow predicted the current psychological orientation of young men and boys is “no.” He was interested in individual as opposed to collective psychological development. On the other hand, his hierarchy of needs may be applied to such developments.

There is a lot of evidence that males in modern Euro-American cultures are not doing well. Males, on average, die younger. Male unemployment is increasing with large numbers of younger males considered virtually unemployable, yet 97% of workplace deaths are men. Seventy percent of graduates in Canadian universities are women. Male suicide rates are four times that of women. Men are more likely to suffer from addictions, be incarcerated and be victims of violent crime. Eighty percent of homeless are men. Things have gotten worse for men since ex-feminist Warren Farrell wrote his book two and a half decades ago. From a Maslow hierarchy of needs perspective, things have not been going well, and part of that can be attributed to the influence of feminism.

Sax, whom you also referenced, in a brilliant analysis of kindergarten curricula in the United States, said that the curricula had been changed in preceding decades to conform to girl’s normative development. Specifically, he said that kindergartens had come to emphasize verbal skills which developmentally favour girls at that age. Had kindergartens emphasized spatial skills then boys would have been favoured. The result of this gynocentric curricula is that boys are more likely to experience frustration in their early schools, like school less, and more frequently experience failure. If female normative development and behaviour is set as normative across society, then boys and men will be disadvantaged. But that is only part of the story.

Using qualitative methods, I was able to demonstrate that a diverse sample of Canadian men have experienced harsh stigma as a result of their sex. Stigma is the imputation of characteristics to a class of people that renders them unfit for certain social roles. The men were viewed as a threat to others or irresponsible with respect to family responsibilities simply because they were men. As a result, they were judged as unfit, or less fit, in their roles as parents or as employees in specific occupations despite a lack of evidence of any wrongdoing. We see this stigma in society with notions of “toxic masculinity” where guilt does not have to be proven, it is assumed. Thus, even when men overcome disadvantages built into education, they remain at a disadvantage. The alienation of fathers from their families, in large part because of stigma, compounds the problem because boys, raised by single parent mothers, are less likely to have effective role models matching their gender and they are more likely to experience addictions, incarceration and suicide.

So, as Zimbardo has argued, many young men are dropping out. They are not competing for careers. They are not establishing families. They are not contributing meaningfully to society. They are occupying themselves with short term gratification. Maslow argued that until self-esteem needs are met, people are more preoccupied with meeting those needs than pursuing self-actualization. If a group of people are disadvantaged in education and suffer stigma for being a member of their group, it could be expected that in accepting the dominant society’s normative view, they suffer low genderized self-esteem. Zimbardo’s famous prison experiment showed definitively that people tend to become the roles societies set for them. The scary implication of this is that many of these young men could become the “toxic masculine” stereotype feminists have set for them. But I think there is another way of looking at this.

About three decades before Maslow built his famous pyramid, Alfred Adler said that all humans are born with a “striving for perfection” which is similar to Maslow’s idea of self-actualization. Those who give up this striving are people who are discouraged and this describes those young men who are dropping out. We need to combat society’s message to boys that they are both bad and failures and we need to reintroduce the striving for goodness.

Robertson’s article on Male Stigma can be found at: https://www.hawkeyeassociates.ca/images/pdf/academic/Male_Stigma.pdf

Jacobsen: Following from the previous question, what therapeutic methods, in a professional setting — group and one-on-one, work with the young men and boys, who, by standard cultural expectations, continue to fail at, probably, increasing rates?

Robertson: In 2012 I attended a workshop on how to counsel men at a Canadian Counselling and Psychotherapy Association annual convention. The presenters were both women one of whom asked, with wide eyed innocence, how many of the attendees, who were overwhelmingly women, had actually counselled a man. Fewer than half the workshop participants raised their hands. The workshop then proceeded with a review of statistics on how few men seek psychotherapy, how men experience depression and suicide ideation less but nonetheless commit suicide at higher rates, and how men sublimate their mental health needs through alcohol, anger, and violence. The prescription of the presenters was that men need to learn how to admit their failings and seek help; they need to be in touch with their feelings more and make themselves “vulnerable” by discussing those feelings; and they need to find allies and build support systems. In short, they need to become more like women.

The suggestions of these female facilitators are not totally wrong. Many men benefit from honing these skills; but I would argue that many women would benefit from learning skills in which men tend to more easily excel. The problem with the paradigm that was presented at this workshop is exactly the problem Sax found with gynocentric kindergarten curricula — it sets up female developmental experience as normative to which both sexes should aspire.

The dominant themes in psychotherapy have always been gyno-normative, even when most of the practitioners were male. For example, Freud’s patients were all female (and rich females at that), and it was on his experience with them that he based his theories. It is probably no coincidence that the psychoanalysis he developed consists of symbolism, dream interpretation, random thoughts, free associations and fantasies in a process that can take years. In contrast, the male approach is to define a problem and solve it. Sometimes this involves setting aside one’s emotions so that rational processes are better able to take charge. My experience with men is that they do not want to be in therapy for a long time. Albert Ellis’ Rational Emotive Therapy makes sense for many men although women may equally benefit from this approach.

I don’t mean to recapitulate John Grey’s Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus thesis. A non-sexist psychotherapy will treat each person as a culture of one with the therapist setting out to learn that culture; however, we need to recognize that there are certain tendencies that may be culturally or genetically driven. Sexist psychotherapy occurs when the normative experience of one sex is set as the norm for both. For example, the presenters at the “How to Counsel Men” workshop I just cited were mystified as to how it was that men were far more likely to commit suicide than women but were far less likely to suffer from depression. It did not occur to them that the American Psychological Association defines depression using the female normative experience. Male symptoms that differ from the female expression are not recognized, and I submit this is one reason why men are under diagnosed with this condition.

It is not at all clear that men’s mental health needs will receive serious attention any time soon. The APA Guidelines for the Psychological Practice with Men and Boys released last year, attempts to link traditional masculinity to racism, ageism, sexism, classism, and heterosexism, and this, we are told, results in “personal restriction, devaluation, or violation of others or self.” The unsubstantiated suggestion is made that men commit higher levels of intimate partner violence and are estranged from their children because they lack the will or ability to have positive involvement in healthy family relationships. Psychologists are cautioned about believing their male clients who protest their innocence because, in the words of the APA, “Male privilege tends to be invisible to men.”

I think we should consider the possibility that men do not seek counselling or therapy because they do not see counsellors and therapists as sympathetic to their experiences and the APA guidelines fail to dispel this perception. This should not be seen as an indictment against all therapists. Jordan Peterson’s “Twelve Steps” are based on practices that are common to Rational Emotive and Cognitive Behavioural therapies, and he expressed surprise that his approach has been overwhelmingly endorsed by young men because those approaches are gender neutral. I think his experience demonstrates that men are willing to seek help for their mental health issues if the helpers are seen to be sympathetic to their lived experience.

My advice to men who are interested in psychotherapy is to interview a number of psychotherapists before settling on one. Ensure that the therapist you choose is sympathetic to your needs and has an approach with which you feel comfortable. I think most therapists would feel comfortable answering such questions, and if they do not, you do not want to use the services of that therapist.

Jacobsen: Recalling a remark by Sax, he noted, after the age of 30, no reliable intervention — inasmuch as his research and professional practice work are concerned — for the aforementioned failure, in terms of steerage back onto the high seas of normal cultural life. He states, according to recent research on the architecture of the brain, an adult female is aged 22 and an adult male is aged 30.

Robertson: Neuropsychology is not my field; however this sounds like an old idea that girls mature faster than boys. I will rely on Susan Harter on this who did a meta-analysis and concluded that the frontal lobes normally complete their development around age 25 for both sexes. She published this in her 2012 book, and there may be subsequent research of which I am not aware. On the other hand, Sax is on solid ground in contending that there are inherited sex-linked differences with respect to personalities, drives and certain aptitudes although it should be remembered that when discussing such differences we are talking about averages and that knowing a person’s sex will not reliably tell us anything about any individual person’s personality or aptitudes. In any case, we are not born with a blank slate as Steven Pinker classically articulated in his book of that name, and on that point I think Sax is on very solid ground scientifically.

The 1950s and 60s popular notion that girls mature faster than boys was grounded in a number of observations that included girls verbal and social development, and the fact that young women were often ready to settle down and raise a family by their late teens. Young men, on the other hand, were often more interested in things than people and would rather explore and experiment than settle down and raise a family. The related conclusions regarding maturity was again grounded in a gynonormative perspective. We now know that different lifestyles and experiences can affect the brain’s structure such that male curiosity, if allowed expression, will result in a strengthening of relevant parts of the brain. Neo-natal scarcity can also lead to phenotypical gene expression that may be adaptive in a world of grinding poverty but are maladaptive in the modern context. Sax may have been thinking of this research in putting limits on when profitable interventions may be undertaken. Recent research has debunked the idea that the brain loses all plasticity by age 30, and in any case, I have helped many adults past middle age to lead satisfying lives after having had a career of dysfunctionality.

Jacobsen: Looking at the last two questions, if we look at the short, medium, and long term futures of men and, thus, in part, societies, what will be the outcomes for those who begin to succeed, and those who continue to fail, by the standard cultural expectations in Canada? What will be the outcomes for the Canadian culture if the trends lean towards further failure or further success — as defined before? For example, Sax reflects on the work by Professor David D. Gilmore, Professor of Anthropology at the State University of New York at Stony Brook, with the likely dissipation and replacement, as an assessment and not a judgment of Gilmore, of secular English-speaking culture in North America, and, in fact, elsewhere, because of the lack of strong bonds across generations and the current cultures with young men and boys on one failure, and girls and young women on another standard success, trajectory, where these sub-cultures in larger Canadian society will not reproduce themselves for a variety of reasons and, therefore, will undergo steady replacement by other sub-cultures enacting the behavioral, communal, familial, and mating patterns indicative of those who have endured in previous generations for millennia, e.g., the Navajo, the Chinese, the Jewish, and so on.

Robertson: Again, there is a lot packed into your question. I would predict that some men will continue to succeed and they will assume the position of alpha males. I predict that large numbers of men will continue to fail, in part due to societal structures that lead to this result, and in part due to their own state of personal anomy flowing from a breakdown in the intergenerational transmission of values. I would argue, however, that reproduction below replacement levels is occurring worldwide and cannot be attributed solely or even primarily to events unique to Euro-American cultures but seem to be correlated with higher levels of educational opportunity available to women that allow for alternate avenues to self-actualization besides the mother archetype. I don’t think a low birth rate is necessarily a bad thing, but I am concerned about male roles in this new culture.

With the words “alpha male” my mind went immediately to the Canadian prime minister who may or may not be prototypical. Alpha males operate by different rules than are available to ordinary males. Feminists in Trudeau’s cabinet like Chrystia Freeland and Jane Philpott gave Mr. Trudeau a pass on substantiated allegations of a past sexual assault while applauding the expulsion from the Liberal caucus backbench members who faced unproven allegations of sexual assault. This would be an example of how rules between classes of men differ in the new society. The problems men who are not alpha face are either invisible or ignored. Even though three times as many male aboriginal men are missing or murdered as compared to aboriginal women, a Canadian inquiry into the problem excluded consideration of the men. When the government announced that Syrian refugees would be admitted, single males were specifically excluded from refugee status. When foreign aid increases were announced, agencies receiving the aid had to agree that none of it would go to men. I do not think the majority of men can expect much consideration from such feminized alpha males.

One problem faced by the majority of men is we do not normally confide in and support other men. I have been part of that problem. In 1969 I marched with Women’s Liberation to protest the “Saskatoon Club.” This was a club for well-to-do men in the city of Saskatoon. Men got to relax, play pool, discuss business and politics, and enter into mentoring relationships without the perceived distraction of women. We succeeded in opening it up to women. About three years later a succession of women rose at a meeting of Women’s Liberation to state that there were women present who felt intimidated by the presence of men. They politely asked the men present, who numbered about a quarter of the group, to leave, and we did so without protest. The result is that there was no net gain in inter-sex cooperation. The difference involved a shifting of gender specific networking and mentoring capacity. Ordinary men to this day remain largely unorganized.

The lack positive male self-identity can be traced to an intergenerational fail in the transmission of values. This fail began long before the advent of feminism. With the Industrial revolution men were forced to work in factories for 12 to 16 hours per day six days per week. Men became absentee parents whose contribution to the family was largely as a “good provider.” Mothers raised their children but necessarily gave them a woman’s perspective. This division of labour became a cultural norm, maintained long after working hours were reduced. Most men still measured their self-worth by their ability to be that good provider for their families differing to women in matters of child-rearing. But now, if men work hard and achieve financial success they are told that they are the recipients of unearned male privilege. Some men are saying, “Why bother?” I think the appeal of people like Peterson is that he has given them a reason to bother that transcends current ideological constraints, and that reason has to do with the development of personal integrity. In a sense, he is reaching out intergenerationally, filling a need in building positive male identities, as I also hope to do in this interview. Thank you for the opportunity.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Dr. Robertson, once more.

Image Credit: Dr. Lloyd Hawkeye Robertson.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen founded In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal and In-Sight Publishing. He authored/co-authored some e-books, free or low-cost. If you want to contact Scott: Scott.D.Jacobsen@Gmail.com.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and Question Time by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com and https://medium.com/question-time

Copyright 

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time 2012-2020. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2019-02-10

Ask Gayleen 3 — Negative What Ifs

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee: Gayleen Cornelius

Numbering: Issue 2: Here We Go

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: Question Time

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: February 10, 2019

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 690

Keywords: Gayleen Cornelius, Progressivism, Scott Douglas Jacobsen, South Africa.

Gayleen Cornelius is a South African human rights activist from Willowmore; a tiny town in the Eastern Cape province. She grew up a coloured (the most ethnically diverse group in the world with Dutch, Khoisan, Griqua, Zulu, Xhosa Indian and East Asian ancestry). Despite being a large Demographic from Cape Town to Durban along the coast, the group is usually left out of the racial politics that plague the nation. She has spoken out against identity politics, racism, workplace harassment, religious bigotry and different forms of abuse. She is also passionate about emotional health and identifies as an empath/ humanist. Here we talk about South Africa and progressivism.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: If South Africa did not become the world’s most progressive country in Africa, what would the situation look like now?

Gayleen Cornelius: If South Africa hadn’t been progressive there would be way too much hate and possibly violence and civil war. South Africa is a very diverse country with 14 national languages.

Historically rival ethnic groups like the Zulu and the Xhosa would have continued with the tribalist violence that almost got out of hand before the reconciliation programs in 1994.

Xenophobia against other African nationalities would have been violent and gruesome. Racism wouldn’t have progressed at all since the Apartheid era and boiled out to a civil war.

The LGBTQ community wouldn’t have come out of hiding fearing for their lives. These are situations that many people considered inevitable when Nelson Mandela assumed power in 1994 but he did a great job implementing a culture of progressivism and averting all the tribalism, racism and bigotry.

Jacobsen: In the possibility of a regression in the relations between citizens in South Africa, what are threats to progressivism there? What are things to watch out for?

Cornelius: The race issue is the most volatile fir as long as I can remember. We still have a large number of white supremacists from the who weren’t very happy about the end of Apartheid because they benefited a lot from it.

There have been many cases of white farmers killing their black workers for sport and various surveys have shown that a great number of farm workers are sexually abused by these farmers.

Some black workers have retaliated and also murdered white farmers and the tension these cases cause have soured race relations.

Racism has threatened a lot of aspects affecting South African civil society and that has led to the rise of a far left wing of black nationalists and an alt right wing of white nationalists.

The populist sentiments that have risen through Julius Malema’s Economic Freedom Fighters and the Afrikaner community’s Afriforum can possibly worsen identity politics and if any one of them get into power in 2019, it would be a newer version of Apartheid all over again.

That is the single and most imminent threat to progressivism in South Africa and a lot has to be done to prevent the worst from happening

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Gayleen.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen founded In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal and In-Sight Publishing. He authored/co-authored some e-books, free or low-cost. If you want to contact Scott: Scott.D.Jacobsen@Gmail.com.

Image Credit: Gayleen Cornelius.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and Question Time by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com and https://medium.com/question-time

Copyright 

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time 2012-2020. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2019-02-08

Interview with Yasmine Mohammed on Islam, Self-Ownership, and Free Speech and Expression (Part Two)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 19.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fifteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: February 8, 2019

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,847

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Yasmine Mohammed is an Author and the Founder of Free Hearts, Free Minds. She discusses: CSIS and personal life; religious history and its influence on her via education; a rising tide of ex-Muslim community and activism; current work; and current teaching.

Keywords: FHFM, Islam, Ex-Muslim, Yasmine Mohammed.

Interview with Yasmine Mohammed on Islam, Self-Ownership, and Free Speech and Expression: Author; Founder, Free Hearts, Free Minds (Part Two)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview was conducted in early 2018.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: I want to pause and touch upon some themes discussed so far. One, you started with a phrase in the earliest part that “Islam is a religion by men for men.” That might be a direct quote.

Then you mentioned scared, then you mentioned feared, but then you mentioned also, intervention into your life from external forces of benevolence including CSIS or the Canadian Secret Intelligence Service.

It, in some ways, seems to energize and say, “I can get out of this,” to get away from the husband and your mother who had their own different forms of abuse if I can say. However, when it comes to a course, so it is the primal response of fear.

Then it is followed by you wanting to be free. That is another word you used, of that release and so you left. Then it was becoming more intellectual, which was the world religion or History of Religion course with the Lebanese professor.

First, it was instinct, then it was intellectual. My suspicion is that the next stage then would be working through a lot more of the emotional stuff?

Yasmine Mohammed: Definitely. So, on everything, I did not mention something that adds to those themes. I wanted to get away from that house and get away from him, but I was really scared. Then I found out I was pregnant again.

Then, I was depressed because I felt that I had lost my opportunity. I was disappointed in myself that I did not leave as quickly as I could because now here I was pregnant again. So, I started accepting that this was my life.

I was not going to be a single mom with two kids. I will never survive. I have a high school education, so this is it. I sealed my fate because I was not courageous enough to leave. Then when I went to my first doctor appointment, it turns out the baby did not have a heartbeat, so it is what they called a missed miscarriage.

So, I had to go in for a DNC – which is a procedure to get the baby out. When I did the DNC, I had general anesthesia. The nurse told me you have a young baby. You are going to be groggy and stuff, so we are going to need you to go with somebody that can help you with your little baby when you go home.

Then I said, “Good, I will go to my mom.” Because obviously, he is not going to help me with our kids. So, I said to him, “Can I go stay with my mom for a few days?” He said, “Sure, no problem.”

When I talk about getting away from him and getting away from my mom, that was the last time I ever saw him. I realized this was my opportunity to get out. I was not going to miss it. So when I went to my mom’s after the DNC, she got up the next morning and went to work.

She is the head of the Islamic Studies department at the local Islamic school. I took my kid, sorted through the yellow pages and found a lawyer, a female lawyer because she would be more empathetic with my struggle.

Having to go out all in black gloves everything, with a baby, I only realize now how ridiculous. I remember them reacting strongly, but I only now understand why. I walked into the office that day and I said, “I need to leave quickly. I have to get back before my mom gets back.”

I took the bus. This was in the days before the Skytrain. As soon as possible, I needed a restraining order, full custody, and a divorce. You cannot call the house. You cannot send any letters.

You cannot contact me, so any information you have to ask for it now because I will never be able to see you again. They said, “Done, it is fine. Do not even worry about it. Everything is okay. Do you need to get back?”

I was like, “No, no, no, I am fine.” I had no idea how dire the whole situation was. I went back and waited. For those few days, I did not know. I had no idea what I had started was going to work then, a couple days later he came.

My mom was living in an apartment building. There was security, so you had to get buzzed. I heard him downstairs screaming in Arabic, “Give me back my wife,” all this stuff.

Jacobsen: “Give me back my wife,” those two terms, “me” and “my,” are terms of being property.

Mohammed: Without a doubt, totally.

Jacobsen: He thought he owned you.

Mohammed: That is what he was angry about. He was angry that I had some agency to make my own decisions.

Jacobsen: You saw these videos of men getting mad about losing their car or their prized guns.

Mohammed: Same thing.

Jacobsen: I interrupted, please.

Mohammed: So, this guy, he is six foot four, Egyptian, dark haired, dark skinned, yelling in Arabic at the building. So, it did not take long for people to call the cops. There is some guy screaming at the building.

I was so afraid someone would leave. Then he would be able to slip, but nobody did. Then the cops came and told him this is your restraining order. You are not allowed to come near the building anymore.

They told me that we can tell him that he cannot come to this building, but we cannot restrict him out in the world. All we can say is that he cannot go within a certain number of meters, in the places you are going to be in, but that does not protect you if you happened to be in the mall and he happened to be there.

So, I stayed in the house. I was not about to risk bumping into him somewhere. I stayed in the house all the way until CSIS contacted me again. They brought me a picture of him behind bars in Egypt and asked if that was him.

I said, “That was him.” I started to get my college loans and started to go to university. So, it was not until I knew he was not going to come and get me and my daughter.

Jacobsen: So, then more positive emotions probably come into your life and assuming your child’s life as well.

Mohammed: So, at this point, my mom was so upset and so angry at me because she dis not want me to go to school. She wants to get me into another marriage, married quickly. So, she is telling me how hard it is going to be a single mom.

She is trying, pushing all of these men on me because she wants to grab the opportunity. I did not care. None of that mattered. It was not the first time around. The first time around I was scared and nervous, and her threats meant something to me.

This time around I was like, “Throw me out in the streets, please, I want nothing to do with you. I would love that.” So, I knew I was all on my own anyway. She went to visit my sister in Florida. That is when I grabbed my daughter and packed the bags.

I left her house. So, it was all happy days. I did not care. Nothing was going to bring me down, I was not sad or upset or even worried about the potential idea that my mom would not approve about what I was doing.

I do not care, but all this time I was still Muslim. I was still asking Allah for guidance to escape my mom. I do not know how to explain it. It did not even cross my mind that that belief could be wrong. It was absolute truth, like talking about: does the Sun rise in the morning? Of course, it does.

The Sun is not something you talk about. It was obvious. So, I did not take that history course a couple of years later. It is amazing that I did not question religion. It was him. I was my mom. I did not connect the dots.

Then after I stopped believing in Islam anymore, I was free to criticize Islam. When you are raised, you are not allowed to ever question. You are raised that Muslims can do bad things, but Islam is perfect, Allah is perfect, and Muhammad is perfect.

So, you do not even criticize it. I remember being a young child and finding out he was 50 something and raped a 9-year-old girl. I was like “How are we supposed to revere this? How is he a perfect man?” My mom got so angry at me because who was I?

Some kid questioning the Prophet of Allah. He was so much more than me. I could not possibly understand how divine he is. She made me feel that I could never question anything after that. She tore me down. I was at a young age. I was young when I learned that.

So, questioning is not encouraged. It is punished and that keeps on happening until you finally stop questioning. Punished so the idea that this could be the fault of the religion was not going to enter my mind.

Of course, now, the line between everything that happened to me and this scripture it is clear as day. There is evidence that everything that happened to me in the way it says to do this. My mom was a good follower.

She believed in this stuff. One thing I did not tell you is that she was raised in a secular household in Egypt. She was not even raised religious, so what happened is she was married to my dad who was agnostic.

It was fine because she did not care about religion. It was not until he left her with three children that she was looking for something. She is in Canada. So, she is looking for her community support, so she found a mosque, the local mosque, and she jumped into it.

She was a born-again Muslim. She found some guy at the mosque who was already married, but who offered to take her in as her second wife and that is what she did.

Jacobsen: Is this in BC, Canada?

Mohammed: Yes, this is in British Columbia, Canada.

Jacobsen: Bountiful BC has many aspects.

Mohammed: Yes, that is right.

2. Jacobsen: It is that old phrase: “variations of a theme.” You mentioned Ali Rizvi. He and Armin are the somewhat more prominent names in the ex-Muslim community now.

In Britain, one of the more prominent is Maryam Namazie, associated with the Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain. So, there is a rising tide. When did you become part of that wave?

Mohammed: It was in the now infamous episode of the Bill Maher show when he had Ben Affleck and Sam Harris. So, that was the catalyst for me because after the episode aired the next day my Facebook was covered with people praising Ben Affleck, and how awesome he was for shutting down that racist Sam Harris.

I was like – hold on a minute, everything Sam Harris said was spot on. How are you guys happy about Ben Affleck? He basically had a hissy fit. He was incoherent. What is going on in this world? Have you all gone mad? So, I had to speak up.

So, it made me speak up. I started to discover things and got a face-full. I discovered the whole global secular humanist movement. I did not even hear the term ex-Muslim. I did not know it existed. At this point, I had even been identifying myself as an atheist for over a decade.

So, all that stuff was behind me. There were a lot of people that knew me that would not have known that I had been a Muslim. Even if my non-belief had never come up because I did not want it to, I wanted to leave that world behind. I want to push it down as far as possible.

3. Jacobsen: So, what is your current work that you are doing now?

Mohammed: So, I have a few irons in the fire. Everything that takes up most of my time is the podcast that I am doing with Ali Rizvi, Faisal Saeed Al Mutar, and Armin Navabi, the Secular Jihadist. So, we booked Maajid Nawaz, so that is awesome.

We are going to have him on soon. We are trying to get some bigger names, so I contacted Ben Shapiro and Tommy Robinson. We are trying to get some different sides of the political spectrum, speaking to each other and trying to bridge that gap.

We will see. We will see how things turn out. If you have ever listened to our podcast, we are not aligning in thought, so it makes it difficult to get guests sometimes because they know some of us.

But they do not know others or they had a bad experience with one of us or something like that. So, when there are four of us, we have to find a guest that is with all the four of us. Sometimes, that is hard to do, so that has taken up a lot of my time.

Also, involved in a documentary, which the whole focus is to talk about the Left-Islamist alliance and try to separate those two because our thinking is that if the liberals or if the Left wing Americans, especially atheists, understood that they were supporting a religion and not a people, they would automatically get rid of that alliance that is going on there.

So, it is heartening to see things this morning. There was an article in the New York Times of all places. It said that the hypocritical leftists are willing to give Muslim extremists a pass and this has a lot to do with Maajid Nawaz suing the SPLC (Southern Poverty Law Center).

So, it is showing that this alliance between the Muslim and the Left-wing is not a good thing. For the Muslim Extremist or the Left wing, it is not a good thing for the average Muslim. So, we will see how that turns out.

That documentary is still in its beginning stages. I am involved in speaking at the Ayaan Hirsi Ali campus tour. So, what that means, we are trying to get a bunch of students from different universities across the U.S., not Canada yet but we are hoping to exit to Canada soon, (we have different politics in our two countries, we have different needs), but the purpose of the campus tour is to get people who are part of the secular groups in their universities to come to listen to us speak.

It is going to be me, and Ali and Aisha, Aisha is Ali’s wife. There will be shared platforms with a bunch of people and then the students will take what they learned from us. Then spread that into their home universities.

They can also invite us to come to speak at their universities too. Ex-Muslims of North America are doing the exact same thing. They are doing a campus tour, except theirs are only ex- Muslims. The Ayaan Hirsi Ali Foundation is for secular-minded people, so it is more much inclusive.

So, I might get involved in the Ex-Muslims of North American one. I might not. I am not sure because I am also teaching full time in September. I do not have any classes scheduled on Friday so we will see how things turn out.

What else am I doing? I am going to be in Ohio this summer speaking at a CFI conference. I am also going to be speaking in Portland in September. I am going to be sharing the stage with Dave Rubin and Steve Simpson.

We are going to be speaking about free speech. We are going to go around talking about free speech with her, not with her obviously, with her foundation.

This is an exciting program because I watched him onstage. I went when he was in LA. I got a chance to watch Dave Rubin, and Colin Moriarty was on stage with him and Steve too. Then I also watched a video with Faisal and Dave and Steve.

So, it is exciting to watch it and then get to be a part of it. Colin Moriarty, if you do not know him, he is the guy who tweeted. It was No Women Work Day or something like that and he tweeted: “ah Day of Silence” or “ah! finally silence.” Which come on, is funny!

So, his girlfriend laughs. He thought, “This is not going to be a problem.” He did not realize. The whole world, everything, blew up in his face. He lost his jobs. His friends turned on him. It was a bomb that blew up. You’d think that he tweeted something horrible. So, he is a great person to talk about free speech.

Jacobsen: It is the digital era. In America, where probably the freest speech has been won or the right to, the privilege to, free expression and speech have been won to the greatest extent.

With the digital era, people can disperse the single worst thing about you in one sentence, which, by definition, most often will be out of context. So, for instance, if he is talking with his wife privately and he tells that joke, they both laugh. It is a bonding thing.

Then it is on Twitter. It is part of a Twitter compilation of thoughts: “I am having coffee today,” “look at this big guy,” “look at that guy wearing spandex in the middle of the day,” “oh, it is ‘No Women Work Day’… so no more complaining.”

But now it’s broadcast so not only the easily offended but those that want to be offended can be, they can find a reason for it or people can deliver the reason to them.

Mohammed: It is shocking. He broke down in tears with his conversation talking with Dave Rubin. That is how bad it was. His life fell apart over a tweet, so silly. Honest to God, I did laugh at it. It was funny. I am a woman. I am not offended by it.

It is hilarious. I get over it. However, you said people want to be offended.

4. Jacobsen: It is almost, not the lowest common denominator but, something close to it, where the variables being counted are those with the thinnest skin who then determine discourse.

That is the problem, so it is one of those new communications technologies. With all of its benefits, it is one of the negatives. So, you are teaching at a university in the Fall, in September. What will you be teaching?

Mohammed: So, I teach different things in different places. At the University of Victoria, I teach teachers how to teach. So, it is because I have an education background, most university professors are knowledgeable in the field and are experts in what they research, what they teach, but do not necessarily have any pedagogy or any education experience understanding of how to teach the stuff that they know.

That is where I come in. I do that at UVic. I do this at Camosun College as well. However, that is half of my job. The other half is teaching in the arts and humanities. So, I teach mostly academic English writing, boring research skills, but, sometimes, I get to teach literature and more fun things.

Most of the time, it is research skills and academic writing. Those basic courses for the second year on how to write an essay, what is citing your source, and so on.

Jacobsen: All of the foundational stuff.

Mohammed: That is right.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Author; Founder, Free Hearts, Free Minds.

[2] Individual Publication Date: February 8, 2019: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mohammed-two; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Interview with Yasmine Mohammed on Choosing Apostasy, Endorsing Ex-Muslims, and Living in Freedom [Online].February 2019; 19(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mohammed-two.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2019, February 8). Interview with Yasmine Mohammed on Choosing Apostasy, Endorsing Ex-Muslims, and Living in Freedom. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mohammed-two.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Interview with Yasmine Mohammed on Islam, Self-Ownership, and Free Speech and Expression (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 19.A, February. 2019. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mohammed-two>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “Interview with Yasmine Mohammed on Islam, Self-Ownership, and Free Speech and Expression (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 19.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mohammed-two.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Interview with Yasmine Mohammed on Islam, Self-Ownership, and Free Speech and Expression (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 19.A (February 2019). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mohammed-two.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2019, ‘Interview with Yasmine Mohammed on Islam, Self-Ownership, and Free Speech and Expression (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 19.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mohammed-two>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2019, ‘Interview with Yasmine Mohammed on Islam, Self-Ownership, and Free Speech and Expression (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 19.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mohammed-two.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Interview with Yasmine Mohammed on Islam, Self-Ownership, and Free Speech and Expression (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 19.A (2018):February. 2019. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mohammed-two>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Interview with Yasmine Mohammed on Islam, Self-Ownership, and Free Speech and Expression (Part Two) [Internet]. (2019, February; 19(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mohammed-two.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2019. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2019-02-01

Interview with Yasmine Mohammed on Choosing Apostasy, Endorsing Ex-Muslims, and Living in Freedom (Part One)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 19.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fifteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: February 1, 2019

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,586

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Yasmine Mohammed is an Author and the Founder of Free Hearts, Free Minds. She discusses: family background; the tone of growing up; being a Muslim girl; people who stop believing in Islam; emotions of having no one to go to; building a new community or finding a new one; going about doing so; and being forced into marriage.

Keywords: FHFM, Islam, Ex-Muslim, Yasmine Mohammed.

Interview with Yasmine Mohammed on Choosing Apostasy, Endorsing Ex-Muslims, and Living in Freedom: Founder, Free Hearts, Free Minds (Part One)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview was conducted in early 2018.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, to begin, was there a family background in both religion and irreligion or simply religion?

Yasmine Mohammed: Wow, that is a good question. No one has ever asked me that before! There was a family background in both, but I never knew my dad. My parents divorced when I was about 2-years-old.

I saw him a few times up until I was probably about eight, but only little visits. So, I never had that father-daughter relationship with him. After that, I never saw him or had any contact with him at all.

But I knew that he was not Muslim. I knew he was not religious. I knew he was not a practicing Muslim. I knew that he did not identify as a Muslim. So, some Muslims, they identify as a Muslim, but they do not practice!

But, even he was like, “No, I do not like all that garbage.” But he was not the influence in my life, my mom was the influence in my life because she is the one who raised me.

She raised me to believe that my dad was evil and he is going to burn in hell. So, if we were being bad, she would threaten us with “I am going to send you to go live with your father,” which was the worst thing because she was going to send us to live with a non-believer.

2. Jacobsen: I want to freeze frame on the tone there, the emotional tone. You described that as the worst thing: to be with your father, not because of your father, but because he would burn in hell.

Is this a common theme that you hear in conversations with friends and others growing up? Not if non-Muslims will burn in hell, but if a threat is either tacit, or explicit, as per your mother’s statement about your father that they will burn in hell – as a threat to keep kids in line, for instance.

Mohammed: It is not a threat. It is the best way to describe it. For somebody who did not live in that world, it is when you are little. Your parents say that Santa is not going to bring you any presents.

If you believe in Santa Claus, and if you would think that you are being bad, he is not going to bring you presents. It was like that, but much worse. It was that, but it was not real. You felt it as real. Your parents thought it was real too.

So, Santa Claus is not a good parallel because parents know that they are joking, but it was these stories about what would happen to you in the grave. The punishments on the Day of Judgment. Punishments that would happen for eternity.

We are not told threats or stories. They were absolute. They were definite. These things would happen to you. It is the default. It was going to happen to you and only if you were able to do something amazing and wonderful and serve God in an over the top way would you be able to protect yourself from that.

So it is the opposite of Christianity, which has forgiveness and your people are inherently good. If they do something wrong, then they can ask for forgiveness. However, for Muslims, it is the opposite.

3. Jacobsen: As a girl and an adolescent young woman growing up in a Muslim family, what was the experience of that for you? Did you notice differences in treatment between boys and girls?

Mohammed: So, there is a difference in treatment. Islam is a religion by men for men. it is created by men for men, so it is male-centered. The female’s rule is simply to serve men, so even as a child you are raised this way.

I have a video that I shared on my Facebook, recently, with girl who is probably a seven or eight-year-old. She is wearing a niqab. Then they show her cooking and bringing drinks on a tray to serve her brother and cleaning the kitchen.

The song that is being sung is, while she is doing all this, about how wonderful she is and how she is going to go to heaven because she is such a good girl. That is how we were raised. Your whole purpose is to be a good wife one day. That is how you serve Allah.

That is the best person you could possibly be. It is to be able to serve your husband and make him happy and make babies, make more Muslims. Those kids have to be religious.

4. Jacobsen: What happens to people in the family if they stop believing in Islam?

Mohammed: I do not have any experiences of knowing anybody that has stopped believing, so I did not when I stopped believing. It is a long story. I separated myself completely from my family, from my community, from everybody because I knew the punishment for leaving Islam was death.

So, I severed all ties. I suspect that probably other people have done that too. That is why you never hear about them in the community. There is no talk about this person that left the religion.

They do not exist, so a common thing you will hear from many ex-Muslims is “I was the only one.” Then they say something like, “Me too!” I thought that I was the only one because you are raised to think that it does not happen.

It is not possible. You are raised to feel it is an identity. It is who you are, so you cannot ever decide to be non-Muslim because it is who you are. So, now that I am open, I meet many ex-Muslims all the time from all over the world. A lot of them have similar stories to mine, where they had to cut ties with their family, their friends, and everything else.

They came out and then they were ostracized and had to cut ties anyways. At the end of the day, it is a negative experience. Ali Rizvi is one of the only people that told his parents that he was not going to be Muslim anymore.

They said, “That is okay. We still love you.” I was like, “What?!” But it is mostly because they were extremely nominal Muslims anyway. They were Muslim by culture, by heritage. They are not practicing.

So, it is not that big a deal. It is a small step. My family was hardcore. So, I was more like a Mormon. He was more of a universalist. A Unitarian or something, it is not that big of a deal for him, but it is a big deal for my family.

5. Jacobsen: If there is an identity that is implicated from a young age, and you are leaving that behind when you stop believing it yourself, but you have no one to go to, what are some of the emotions and feelings that come up?

Mohammed: These are such good questions. That was one of the hardest parts of leaving the religion. It is re-discovering and re-building who I am from the ground-up. I was always told who I was, what to think, how to act, what to say, and what to wear.

Everything is outlined in your life: how you eat, how to drink, how you go to the bathroom, how you eat, how you put on shoes, how you cut your toenails, and so on. Literally, the stuff of your life is outlined for you, so when you walk away from that it is not cold turkey. It is weird. It takes time.

It is scary. However, I did a lot of reading in those days faked it until I made it. This is who I want to be. These are the values for me. In the beginning, it was doing the opposite of what I was taught, to be honest.

If I was not sure by default, I would do the opposite. Then I would take some time to think about it. It was weird. It was one of the hardest parts of leaving Islam.

6. Jacobsen: That sounds like a reaction from an interview with the Temple of Satan, a chapter leader and spokesperson, Michelle Short and Stewart “Stu” De Haan, respectively.

They noted different branches including the Church of Satan, the Temple of Satan, and the general category of the Theistic Satanist. They noted that the Theistic Satanists are not what they are, and almost impossible, because they amount to an opposing reaction to Christianity.

They are Christianity inverted rather than something non-supernaturalist and that takes Satan as a metaphor. So, even in a different context, I see a similar development there.

Even if you have those emotions coming up, of fear and others, which is an ancient emotion evolutionarily, what becomes of you when you are trying to build a new community or at least find a community?

Mohammed: My case was different because I had a daughter. I had a baby when I ran away, so I did not have time to do much soul searching. I had to get my shit together as quickly as possible because I had to raise her.

So, when I was talking about doing a lot of reading back then, I was in university. Anytime, I could take an elective. I would take child psychology or something. I wanted to make sure that I raised my daughter in the right way.

7. Jacobsen: With those associated motions, how do you go about building or finding a community?

Mohammed: So, building or finding a community did not happen, I did not find or build a community. I lived a double life. I do not think I ever replaced that community that I lost, or even if it can be replaced.

That is a thing that a lot of ex-religious are missing. that social community connection. That tribal part is comforting and dangerous because you always have ‘the other.’ But I did not find a replacement for it.

It was scary. I was lonely, but I figured it out step by step. I do not have a good answer for that.

8. Jacobsen: You gave a completely appropriate answer as far as I am concerned, because you described the personal context. You ran away with a child. You needed to get your “shit together” as fast as possible. It is reasonable.

But there is a gap. Your father not being in the picture. Your mother said, “I am going to send you to his house and he is going to hell.” All of the sudden, you are leaving the community and escaping with your child.

What is the gap? What is in-between there?

Mohammed: That is a big gap. So, my mom has been trying to force me into marriage after marriage, ever since I finished high school. There is no option of going to college or anything.

But I did not want to get married, so I kept on sabotaging it.

So, I would not get married. She kept on getting new people and different people. Eventually, there was this one guy, she was adamant about him.

She said, “I am kicking you out to the street if you do not marry this guy. I am done with you. I am tired of you. You are marrying him, whether you like it or not.” So, these are the days before Facebook, Twitter, and e-mail. So, I had no connection to my friends that I went to high school with.

I lost all the connections because I had been in Egypt for two years. That was another issue. We went to Egypt to visit as a family. Then she left me there because she wanted me to be fixed. She wanted to leave me in a Muslim Society, so I could stop being so Western.

I did not know that I was going to be staying there for two years. So, one day I woke up and my family was gone. In those two years, I had lost contact. My friends all started traveling Europe and going to university.

Anyway, they were not living at home anymore, so I had no way of contacting them. When she forced me to marry this guy, I did not think I had much choice anyway. What was I going to do? Even if I did find a friend, I had not spoken to them in two years.

So, I eventually gave in, married the guy, and got pregnant almost immediately. I did not realize until later into the marriage that he was an Al-Qaeda member because I was contacted by CSIS, who is the Canadian CIA.

They contacted me when my mom had an emergency. She started bleeding from her nose. She was coughing up blood at the same time. So, I called 911 for an ambulance. I went with her to the hospital.

Up until that moment, I had never been away. I had never been alone without my mom or him. That was the first time. CSIS, they swept into the scene. They were there, so they have been monitoring him and trying to get to me for some time.

This was the opportunity they finally got. So, when my mom was with the doctor, they came into the waiting room. Then they asked me to go into a private room together. We talked about it. They told me. He was a member of Al-Qaeda.

They started asking me about Osama bin Laden. None of these things sounded familiar to me because it was pre 9/11, so I had no idea. None of it sounded familiar to me. I knew that he had been in Afghanistan because he always talked about Peshawar.

How much he wanted to be back there, he loved it. I knew that he might have been involved in some jihad-ist activity, but it is not like he ever talked to me about it. My role was to cook, clean, and get raped. There was no actual relationship there.

So, once I realized who he was and what he was a part of, they told me that he was in Canada to be part of something. They did not know what, but there was something brewing and he was part of the network.

It turns out it was for 9/11. However, that is when I decided I needed to get out of this relationship, get away from this man and get my daughter out of this life because I realized I did not want my daughter to live the same life.

Everything was repeating itself. I was condemning her to live the same life. She is what propelled me to have the courage to get out. It was a two-step process: I had to get away from him and then I had to get away from my mother.

Because my mom, she is the same ideology as him. The only difference is that she is a woman and he is a man. She would throw things at me, but she is not as physically scary. So, I got away from him.

Then I got away from my mom eventually. That is when I started university because I am lucky enough to be living in Canada. I am able to get student loans and start my life. That is when I took a History of Religion course.

In that course, it is when I learned that this divine text that was supposedly the word of God. That was so poetic and perfect. I find out it is plagiarized, from Christianity and Judaism and Pagan stories before that.

It took away all of the divinity. All of the respect that I ever had for it. It was a joke. I was happy to learn because people talk about the sadness that they felt when they realized they have been lied to all these years.

I felt anger that I was lied to. However, initially, my first reaction, “I am so glad I do not have to follow this shit anymore,” because I was only doing it because I was so scared. I have been scared from a young age.

I was terrified about what would happen to me if I did not do what I was supposed to do and say what I was supposed to say and wear what I was supposed to wear, etc. So, I only did that stuff out of complete fear.

So, it is the Wizard of Oz once you lift the curtain. You find out that there is nothing to fear. I was elated. However, that is cognitively right. I understood logically that this was not right, but I still had all of this fear that was programmed into me.

It took me a long time to stop thinking about it, to stop worrying about it, to stop questioning myself, “What if I am wrong?” I had to own it. That took a long time. A lot of ex-Muslims that flipped. They went straight, as soon as they found out it was lies.

They went straight into outright blasphemy, bringing in the Quran. However, I did not have the need to do that. Even now, I did not find the need to do that.

I wanted to be free. I wanted to free myself. So, that History of Religion course. That was an elective. I took it because the professor was Lebanese, so I assumed he would be Muslim. So, I thought this would be an easy course because it is all about Islam.

I went to Islamic schools my whole my life. My mom was a student at a university in Medina. I am going to ace this course. It turns out he was a Lebanese Christian, but because he was a Lebanese Christian. He knew so much about my experience.

He understood Arab Muslims because he was raised in that society. Not only that, he did not have any of the apologetics that a regular Canadian professor would have had because he was Arab.

He did not care. He would say what he needed to say. He would talk with honesty about all of the issues with the religions. So, I was lucky to have taken that course. It changed my life.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Author; Founder, Free Hearts, Free Minds.

[2] Individual Publication Date: February 1, 2019: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mohammed; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Interview with Yasmine Mohammed on Choosing Apostasy, Endorsing Ex-Muslims, and Living in Freedom (Part One) [Online].February 2019; 19(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mohammed.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2019, February 1). Interview with Yasmine Mohammed on Choosing Apostasy, Endorsing Ex-Muslims, and Living in Freedom (Part One). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mohammed.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Interview with Yasmine Mohammed on Choosing Apostasy, Endorsing Ex-Muslims, and Living in Freedom (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 19.A, February. 2019. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mohammed>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2019. “Interview with Yasmine Mohammed on Choosing Apostasy, Endorsing Ex-Muslims, and Living in Freedom (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 19.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mohammed.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Interview with Yasmine Mohammed on Choosing Apostasy, Endorsing Ex-Muslims, and Living in Freedom (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 19.A (February 2019). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mohammed.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2019, ‘Interview with Yasmine Mohammed on Choosing Apostasy, Endorsing Ex-Muslims, and Living in Freedom (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 19.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mohammed>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2019, ‘Interview with Yasmine Mohammed on Choosing Apostasy, Endorsing Ex-Muslims, and Living in Freedom (Part One)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 19.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mohammed.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Interview with Yasmine Mohammed on Choosing Apostasy, Endorsing Ex-Muslims, and Living in Freedom (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 19.A (2019):February. 2019. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mohammed>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Interview with Yasmine Mohammed on Choosing Apostasy, Endorsing Ex-Muslims, and Living in Freedom (Part One) [Internet]. (2019, February; 19(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mohammed.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2019. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2019-01-28

Ask Dr. Robertson 4 — Just You and Me, One-on-One Counselling

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee: Dr. Lloyd Hawkeye Robertson

Numbering: Issue 2: Here We Go

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: Question Time

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: January 28, 2019

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,421

Keywords: aboriginal, counselling psychology, Lloyd Hawkeye Robertson, Scott Douglas Jacobsen.

Dr. Lloyd Hawkeye Robertson is a Registered Doctoral Psychologist with expertise in Counselling Psychology, Educational Psychology, and Human Resource Development. He earned qualifications in Social Work too.

His research interests include memes as applied to self-knowledge, the evolution of religion and spirituality, the Aboriginal self’s structure, residential school syndrome, prior learning recognition and assessment, and the treatment of attention deficit disorder and suicide ideation.

In addition, he works in anxiety and trauma, addictions, and psycho-educational assessment, and relationship, family, and group counseling. Here we talk about the clientele.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: When working with clients or patients one-on-one, how do you build rapport and trust with them? I imagine, on a one-on-one basis, difficulty in working with them without rapport or, especially, trust.

Dr. Lloyd Hawkeye Robertson: Numerous studies have found that client-counsellor rapport accounts for up to 50% of the variance in therapeutic outcomes, and this has led some psychologists to conclude that the methodological school of psychology one practises is not important. What the data actually shows is that without rapport the client is less likely to experience positive outcomes regardless of methods used, but that still allows for the possibility that some practices are more efficacious than others for particular issues.

Probably the easiest way to build rapport is to identify commonalities between therapist and client. This could include gender, race, ethnicity, religion, social status, and so on. Once the client has revealed the problem or issue that has brought him or her to therapy, the therapist may share that he has faced a similar issue, and this too has the effect of establishing rapport, but there are risks associated with this approach.

The first such danger is that it can undermine the therapeutic process. As discussed in an earlier conversation, psychotherapy is predicated on the notion that each of us is a unique self-determining individuals. By over emphasizing our external commonalities, we run the risk of denying that self-empowering process. The clearest example I can think of occurred when I was Director of Mental Health for Northern Saskatchewan. Concerned with the lack of effectiveness of its alcohol and drug addiction program, the province brought its addiction program under the authority of the mental health program. I discovered that addictions workers had been hired, not on the basis of their competence in psychotherapy, but on the basis of their status as “recovered” alcoholics. These workers had maintained sobriety for years, and they thought they could use their own experience as a template for others. They gave advice based on their own experiences and they thought they were doing therapy. Such an approach denies the individual experiences and cognitions of the client.

A second danger of establishing rapport through the development of a common identity is that it could confirm a dysfunctional worldview. Psychotherapy is about change. If a man comes to me having been abused by women, and I reveal to him that I also have been abused by women, then we could commiserate and blame while avoiding dealing with the changes the man will need to make to have healthy transsexual relationships. Similarly, Feminist Psychotherapy adds an ideological perspective to the field and that perspective could keep female clients from undergoing beneficial self-change.

I am not discounting using therapist and client commonalities in building rapport, I am just cognisant of some of the risks that need to be monitored while taking such an approach. There is another way of building the therapeutic alliance. Adler viewed the client or patient as an expert in himself and therapy as a collaboration between two experts. Another way of picturing this approach is to view the therapist as a kind of consultant. The client identifies the issues he or she wishes to tackle, and I offer alternative therapies the client may use to reach agreed upon goals. We then co-construct a treatment plan. Treatment then is in part experimentation to see which approaches are most effective in this situation given the unique attributes the client possesses. In the process, the client learns self-monitoring and self-assessment skills that can be applicable in other situations.

Jacobsen: What are you bearing in mind in this working environment, in one-on-one counseling? How do you gauge individual needs and project possible timelines of the patients?

Robertson: In most cases, the client comes to me with an issue or issues on which they wish to work. We don’t necessarily stay with the same issue. In one example, the client came to me with the complaint that she was too sensitive to criticism. Following a couple of sessions, it became apparent that she was the recipient of emotional abuse, so this shifted the strategies we used. In another case, the client came to me with problems maintaining attention, but it became apparent that the reason she had difficulty focussing was depression. Such changes in focus involve a re-negotiation of treatment planning. I like to project a certain number of sessions in which to incorporate a treatment plan with the idea that at the end of those sessions we, that is the client and I, evaluate the achievements obtained. This could result in terminating our sessions, continuing with the present treatment plan, or negotiating a new plan.

Jacobsen: How do you work to prevent the possible transference of trauma to the counsellor or reactivity of the counselor, in case they or you may have had prior similar negative life experiences? For example, a male counselor who witnessed abuse of one parent by another in youth, and then hears a recounting of a client’s experience with this. This may work them up.

Robertson: Hopefully the counsellor has dealt with his or her related traumas before they attempt to help someone who has had a similar traumatic experience. If the counsellor has not successfully dealt with that trauma then he or she should not accept such clients. On the other hand, if the counsellor has successfully dealt with a similar event, that counsellor may be able to offer unique helpful insights. The person who experiences a trauma is not necessarily forever wounded by it.

The issue of transference was first noted by Freud who viewed the client or patient’s attribution of emotions and motivations to the therapist as an opportunity to generate positive insight. I think what you might be concerned with is the issue of countertransference where the therapist takes on the emotions of the client. The counsellor or therapist has a special relationship with the client involving a kind of intimacy. Karl Rogers called this therapeutic stance unconditional positive regard. Alfred Adler said you have to get into the client’s skin to see the world through his eyes. The danger here is that the therapist may so identify with the client that he takes on aspects of their worldview and trauma. This, of course, does not do anyone any good. The therapist is conducting a cognitive exercise in monitoring the client’s cognitions, emotions and behaviour. By maintaining this cognitive distance from the client’s emotions and behaviour, the therapist is actually modelling those skills the client will need to gain control of problematic emotionally laden behaviours. Some people equate cognitive distance as a lack of empathy, but this is a misunderstanding of the concept. The therapist practising cognitive distancing is empathetic enough to understand that the client, to gain control of his or her emotions and behaviours, must be able to sufficiently objectify them to understand them and thereby gain control.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Dr. Robertson.

Image Credit: Dr. Lloyd Hawkeye Robertson.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and Question Time by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com and https://medium.com/question-time

Copyright 

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time 2012-2020. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2019-01-22

Interview with Terri Hope on Humanism

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 19.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fifteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: January 22, 2019

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 4,250

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Terri Hope is the Founder and Leader of the Grey Bruce Humanists and a former Humanist Officiant. She discusses: personal background; family and community reactions to a non-belief in God; being on the board of Humanist Canada; women in community; equal representation; the main attraction for women humanists; things to keep in mind for the secular community; the veracity of traditional arguments for God; upcoming events; demographics; humanists as atheists; kinds of atheists; fun conversations; humanism and humanitarianism; humanism and feminism; gender gap in humanism; #MeToo; substantive forms of behavior; science and ethics in humanism; and final feelings and thoughts.

Keywords: Grey Bruce Humanists, Humanism, humanist officiant, Terri Hope.

Interview with Terri Hope on Humanism: Founder and Leader, Grey Bruce Humanists; Former Humanist Officiant[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

*This is a relatively accurate transcription and edit of the text, but not completely.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What is personal background?

Terri Hope: I grew up with some of the practices and important values of Judaism, like education and family, but not super religious. I went to Hebrew school. By the time I was in late high school, I did not get religion. I did not understand how that could work. Then I became more interested in other things.

I had a God belief still, for a while. But then, I had to accept that I do not believe in God.

2. Jacobsen: Did family or community react when you announced this lack of belief or the belief in the non-God?

Hope: In high school, I do not think that I announced this belief. I was not as passionate about those things. I did not do any of that stuff. Besides, I moved away, from New York to Canada at age 21. I was married then. My husband was not religious either.

He was not from a religious tradition. It was not until after a while that we became somewhat interested. I did not know that there was such a thing; that there were people who talked the way I did. Then later, my husband became interested too.

We were both involved with the Humanist Association of Toronto and then on the board of Humanist Canada. In Ontario, we started up here with humanism. I did not expect anyone here. Because it is a traditional town.

3. Jacobsen: When were you working on the board Humanist Canada and orienting towards leadership within the humanist community?

Hope: I wanted a place at the table when religious groups said one thing or another. I was not much of an activist. I had a young family. I did other things as well. I was doing it for participation and for some sense of community rather than activism work.

It was for the community. I do not know if younger people with families are interested in those things because of their other responsibilities. My children are grown and have lives of their own now.

4. Jacobsen: In some of the non-religious community and noted for a long time about the religious community, women tend to have less of a say, at the table where it counts. What was it like in the earlier years coming into the humanist community?

Hope: That is true. There were fewer women. It was more men who were very serious. We tried to offer a wider range of things to do. We had groups of people visiting others who could not come for one reason or another. We tried to have movie nights.

We tried to widen the range from serious discussion groups. Now, I do not think this is a problem. Right now, we have an equal number.

5. Jacobsen: Was this a conscious effort or not?

Hope: Interesting, at one point, we talked about it. How can we get more women involved? I think adding more options to what we did not, maybe, changing the subject a little bit. There was a conscious effort to attract more women.

Because the serious and heavy topics tended to attract more women. But now, maybe because of our age and what we were involved with before, we must involve more young people. But young people may not be as interested in joining something.

We do not have things for kids. We do not attract younger people, for sure.

6. Jacobsen: What do you find as the main attraction for different women humanists now?

Hope: Women want an opportunity to get out and talk about very interesting topics that women who are out of university are not talking about as often now. They want to share food and seeing the same people across time. They want to share and learn different and interesting things.

It is very much the affiliation and community sense. It is to learn new things. When you are no longer in university and no longer need to be available to children all the time, it is wonderful to be involved with people and talk about a variety of topics and to read books. It does attract women for those reasons.

7. Jacobsen: In a secular community, what are some of the things people must keep in mind?

Hope: Lots of things, building it up here, I started with people here. I was a non-religious officiant. I asked them if they wanted to participate in a group. We do not try to convert people or encourage membership.

When someone was here one time, people who were sitting around the living room and saying, “Sure, we can try. We can find people in the area and see if they want to give  it a try.” Over the years, between 10 and 30 people are coming out to meetings, other things to keep in mind.

One of them is the non-proselytization. I like to keep it totally open. Anyone is welcome. However, if they are coming to convert us or to present their personal religious view, that really does not work because our purpose is to have people talking comfortably with one another and to not worry that they will step on someone’s toes.

What I do, if I know someone has religious beliefs, because I have no interest in converting them if they have found what works for them, I speak with them about what our meetings are about. If they want to see come, great! If they want to see what we are about, then stay on the list and see what we are up to.

If they want to continue, fabulous, it is those kinds of things that we need to be sure that our members are comfortable, because it is a place where you can be an agnostic or an atheist, or say something that is not favorable about religion and then not have to feel as if you’re insulting or not demeaning some else who finds that important or as something positive in their life.

That is important to me. There are humanists who are very stalwart about it. Religion is idiocy. We need to let people know it. I am not that. But then there are others who are questioning, “I am not too sure.” Then there is this whole spiritual thing, “I am spiritual but not religion.” I do not know what it means. It could mean crystals or some vague sense.

But they can come. Those people do not come to think God is directing everything. Do I know whether there is a God or not? Of course not, I am assuming because I have not had any experience. Science says, “The things we don’t know, we don’t know.” That is okay.

8. Jacobsen: What do you think of these traditional arguments in religions for the veracity of some intervening God?

Hope: I would probably say, “I am happy for you. That you have found that experience of a reality of a God. But that has never happened to me.” That is probably what I would say. If they say, “God cured her cancer.” I would say, ‘I would rather trust doctors and scientists than faith.” Usually, I say, “That’s good for you.”

I am probably only different with children. When you teach your child and do not allow science into the classroom, and if you teach the faith in the church as though it were fact, that, I have a problem with.

9. Jacobsen: Since you are coming into your 12th/13th year for Grey Bruce Humanists, what are some events upcoming that we can look forward to? That come humanist or secular groups could replicate where they are at.

Hope: We have those three types of programs. We have a lot of volunteers and diverse programs. We have our roster of speakers coming up through the year. Anything from elder abuse to Gretta Vosper and being an atheist minister.

We have environmental ethics or medical ethics. We have different topics throughout the year with speakers. They can come to the library on the first Wednesday of every month. The third thing that we offer, every third month or so, is a community get together. We go to a restaurant and then have a get-together, a social. It is purely social.

We donate books or magazines to the library. We make donations. It is mostly local organizations rather than Doctors Without Borders. People, at this point, can look forward to a program. We have a lot to work with here.

10. Jacobsen: In terms of the demographics for Grey Bruce Humanists, does this population tends towards the more educated and progressive?

Hope: Yes, it tends towards the educated. People who love discussing things and ethics, and politics. I think there are some who may not have a lot of formal education. But most of them do, though. They look forward to an opportunity to discuss stuff.

We do not have many people without formal education. It is an older population as well. Those who are not consumed with kids or school as parents. Our demographics do manage Grey Bruce as Grey Bruce is an older population.

We have no programs to recruit people. We really do not want to do it. Considering, it is not a city We do not need to get bigger and bigger. We are happy to have the members that find out about us. We are happy for people who find out about us through the Facebook page. We get some members through that.

But we do not work hard to get members.

11. Jacobsen: Do most humanists identify as atheists?

Hope: We have never discussed it. But I would say, “Yes.” Atheism, the word has such a bad rap. It does mean no god. It is saying, “I know there’s no god.” Fine! A lot of people are comfortable with that. I would rather say, “Yes, I am an atheist, because there is no god in my life.”

But if I were to learn later in my life that there was some overpowering force, then, maybe, I would change. I would tend to say, “No, that would not happen. It is mythology.” I can say, “I am an atheist,” but I do not go around to other people and say, “I am an atheist. I am a nonbeliever.”

I fear that it turns people off immediately when I say, “I am atheist.” I do not want to destroy the conversation before we get into it. So, that is just me, though. Other people say, “I am an agnostic,” which makes sense. That I do not know. Most humanists identify as atheists, probably.

That would be a good meeting and conversation. It would be very interesting. Thanks! [Laughing]

12. Jacobsen: It also raises a question, “What kind of atheist, to what extent?”

Hope: That would be the question. Are you an atheist that says, “There is no god”? Or do you say, “I have no evidence of there being a God?” I guess [Laughing]. It would be interesting to ask people where they are coming from. Most of us, the vast majority, have come from or grown up in a religion.

I know in Toronto. There were people who had atheist parents. But most of us have not.

13. Jacobsen: If we look at the history of science, every generation harbors a set of findings and theories to fit those findings together. But, at some point, those findings and theories with the evidence hit a certain scope or level of fidelity, based on the framework or the level of evidence.

It is those edges and level of fidelity that we find the fun conversations. Where do you see the fun conversations?

Hope: Oh yes, absolutely, I would love to dig into that. I do not know. I maybe do not know enough science to get deeply into that subject. I tend to say, “I don’t know,” and then live with the “I don’t know.” Or I would choose to find a scientist on that subject that I respect and who has spent many years studying the subject and then go with them on it, rather than make a statement on my own.

My husband may have some different things to say about it. There are some interesting questions about science.

14. Jacobsen: Do humanists tend to be more interested in humanitarian efforts?

Hope: I would say, “Yes.” Remember, not all members identify as humanists, I do. Are they interested in compassion, giving, and sharing? I would say, “Yes.” Most of them tend to be more left of center or interested in the legislation guarding poor people, immigrants, refugees. We do have a few conservative new members.

You will find some of the conservative new members are atheists and not humanists. Rob Buckman was part of a “Can you be good without God?” presentation. It was with pastors, priests, and rabbis, and Bob was a humanist.

Someone from the Evangelical Right said, “Stalin was an atheist.” But Rob Buckman said, “But he was not a humanist” [Laughing].

Jacobsen: Most Germans in the 1940s were Christian, the vast majority.

Hope: Oh sure!

Jacobsen: It amounts to saying, “There is no true German Christian,” or no true Scotsman. It amounts to a logical fallacy in the assertion.

Hope: It is interesting how we define ourselves in so many ways. How we mesh politically, because of how we define humanism, we are interested in animal rights. But our vegan members would say, “We are not interested enough as we eat meat.” So, you have a lot of acceptable ways to be a humanist.

15. Jacobsen: Given the present politics with a sprinkling or a peppering of conservatives, do most humanists ally with feminist viewpoints, policy recommendations, and so on?

Hope: We have several members who would not call themselves feminists and who become annoyed with some of the MeToo stuff. The majority, particularly the women, are aware of those issues and would identify with it.

We are talking about caring. We are talking about compassion. We are talking about equity. We are talking about kindness. So, how do you treat a woman or a refugee, anyone struggling? If you are a humanist, you care about those things.

If you do not care about those things, you may be an atheist, but you may not be a humanist.

16. Jacobsen: What is the explanatory gap or filter for the gender-based split between humanism and feminism? Men are far less likely to be than women.

Hope: Yes, I think experience or the typically privileged groups have not experienced what it feels like to be a female in our culture. Some have gone to fabulous heights and others are trapped in male domination. More women are thinking about these issues.

If women come together and talk about what happened to them, and feeling about them, they can talk about things. They can say, “I can’t believe that we actually put up with that.” Men have not experienced that. Tonight, we will be having a meeting talking about the “Baby it’s cold outside” phenomenon or the Christmas card of the man with the tape over the family member’s mouths. He is saying how peaceful Christmas comes from this.

So many things that are “ha, ha, ha,” funny are not now. We are talking more about it. We are not accepting being treated as a lesser being. It is talking about it. Those of us who are older are. What accounts for the gap between men and women, and they are older, they are probably used to a world of comfort and not having been used to not walking around in a position of power.

They do not see their endemic privilege. Of course, white people have the same issue. I am a white person. Do we recognize our privilege as white people? We should! Because that is a very big issue. Any black person can talk to you about what it means to walk the streets as a black person, and how different that is.

If we have not experienced something, then the more likely we are to hold onto our privilege. It may go unrecognized.

17. Jacobsen: If we look to the earlier portion of that response, the #MeToo phenomenon starting from Tarana Burke in 2006. The statistics are only 8%, which is relatively high even in the other ranges given in terms of false claims [ed. False rape claims at 8%]. There, yes, may be the Rolling Stone case.

Hope: I do not think there is any question about there being false claims. But there are far more women who have never made claims about what has happened to them than ones who have made claims and are making false claims.

The ones who are out for some money and to get some guy back. I am sure that they happen. But just as women claim who have been sexually abused, I am sure there is a false memory. But is that the highest percentage? No, I do not think so.

Jacobsen: I would go back to two basic sources. One is the FBI with only 12.5 to 1 being false claims. Then the World Health Organization having 1/3 women having sexual or physical violence in their lifetime.

Hope: Oh, my heavens, it goes so much further than that. In my own case, a friend’s father; in my own case, a man got into my car and starts fondled my legs. Neither of them really hurts me, but they did scare the living daylights out of me.

They never really hurt me. I never went after them. If this happened today, I would be at the police station. My mother would never. I would say millions of women. When women get together, they talk about those things. They never report it.

Not trivial things too, because they did not damage us for life, but they did affect us. [Laughing] There is a feeling of entitlement. We have not studied male sexuality to really understand male sexuality and, particularly, young men. [Laughing] Well, no we have plenty of examples of them too.

But we do not want to do that. Because we do not want to pretend, we are them. Because we are not! My husband and I have been married for 50 years. [Laughing] So, it is not like I am anti-male. But they have their bit. The endless, endless examples of male privilege and feeling of privilege as an entitlement. Yes, absolutely!

Do all men acknowledge it, I do not think so? Not all, some do.

18. Jacobsen: Does the acknowledgment come in the more substantive form of behavior or only in the signifiers of words?

Hope: It would be saying, “You know, we’re not all bad. He went overboard.” I do not know. In the humanist group, it will be different. On Fox News, it will be different. I thought that when I saw Donald Trump make his statement about grabbing women that that would be it. I thought he would be finished.

When he made fun of the person with Cerebral Palsy, I thought, “He’s finished.” But he was not. What is the evidence? In our groups, the evidence of that would be a little more speaking out, “Come one, you’re going too far with that.”

Some strong women would say, “You can say that. But this is what happened to me.”

19. Jacobsen: Given the linkage of science and evidence with ethics in humanism, how can this new wave of information that may be novel to many, many men of women’s experiences in general with men in their lives create or inform new ethic and behavior question in humanist groups?

Hope: You start introducing this in elementary school. Being kind to people, being considerate of people and not just girls and women, all people should be treated respectfully and fairly. You start that in elementary school.

Boys start growing up understanding their own proclivities. I can say. Males are programmed to spread the seed from the time that they are 16. They will be looking for opportunities. Girls need to understand that. Boys need to understand that and need to fulfill those needs that are not assaulting girls.

That is a really, big question. I think it has a lot to do with education, teachers, and parents. Parents sometimes do not know as they do not have a glimpse of that. It is going to be a generational thing to start, right now, with little kids. It is to treat all people well.

I mean, the same technique used with teaching kids about handling people who are different than you: the other. Gay people who are very often teased in school. That should never be tolerated. No teacher should tolerate it if he or she hears it. But it was.

So, it is all part, to me, of learning to be a decent human being.

20. Jacobsen: Any final feelings or thoughts in conclusion based on the conversation today?

Hope: I wish there was more of it. If there were more discussions like this in the mainstream, if we had a place at the table in the media more and could help people understand where we are coming from, it is not to destroy their history of Christianity and whatever traditions.

It is not to destroy their whole way of life, but to introduce and to induce a more compassionate future. But it does not sell.

Jacobsen: People want magic in the same way they want easy answers, ethically, scientifically, and otherwise.

Hope: Yeah, I guess you are right. I can see how fun it would be to believe in magic. But somehow, I do not have that gene. I think 7% of us are like this. It should start very early. It is harder. You lose out on certain things. But I do not believe for any of that stuff and do not see any evidence for it.

So, what can I do about that?

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Terri.

Hope: [Laughing] You’re very welcome.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Founder and Leader, Grey Bruce Humanists; Former Humanist Officiant.

[2] Individual Publication Date: January 22, 2019: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/hope; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Interview with Terri Hope on Humanism: Founder and Leader, Grey Bruce Humanists; Former Humanist Officiant [Online].November 2019; 19(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/hope.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2019, January 22). Interview with Terri Hope on Humanism: Founder and Leader, Grey Bruce Humanists; Former Humanist Officiant. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/hope.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Interview with Terri Hope on Humanism: Founder and Leader, Grey Bruce Humanists; Former Humanist Officiant. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 19.A, November. 2019. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/hope>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “Interview with Terri Hope on Humanism: Founder and Leader, Grey Bruce Humanists; Former Humanist Officiant.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 19.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/hope.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Interview with Terri Hope on Humanism: Founder and Leader, Grey Bruce Humanists; Former Humanist Officiant.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 19.A (January 2019). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/hope.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2019, ‘Interview with Terri Hope on Humanism: Founder and Leader, Grey Bruce Humanists; Former Humanist Officiant‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 19.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/hope>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2019, ‘Interview with Terri Hope on Humanism: Founder and Leader, Grey Bruce Humanists; Former Humanist Officiant‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 19.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/hope.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Interview with Terri Hope on Humanism: Founder and Leader, Grey Bruce Humanists; Former Humanist Officiant.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 19.A (2018):January. 2019. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/hope>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Interview with Terri Hope on Humanism: Founder and Leader, Grey Bruce Humanists; Former Humanist Officiant [Internet]. (2019, January; 19(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/hope.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2019. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2019-01-15

An Interview with Stacey Piercey on the Transgender Canadian Citizens, the Media, and Health Concerns (Part Three)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 19.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fifteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: January 15, 2019

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,636

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Stacey Piercey is the Co-Chair of the Ministry of Status of Women Sub-Committee of Human Rights for CFUW FCFDU and Vice Chair of the National Women’s Liberal Commission for the Liberal Party of Canada. She discusses: opinions about the transgender citizens in Canada by some of the media and some movements; the impacts on transgender youth in Canada in hearing neutral and curiosity-driven news; the impact on transgender youth in Canada in hearing mean-spirited news; moving into 2020 for acceptance of the transgender community; help for transgender individuals moving into the 2020s; and transgender health issues being addressed and respected.

Keywords: Co-Chair, Liberal Party of Canada, Ministry of Status of Women, Stacey Piercey, Vice Chair.

An Interview with Stacey Piercey on the Transgender Canadian Citizens, the Media, and Health Concerns: Co-Chair – Ministry of Status of Women Sub-Committee of Human Rights, CFUW FCFDU; Vice Chair National Women’s Liberal Commission at Liberal Party of Canada | Parti libéral du Canada (Part Three)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: In the public conversation now, we can observe a wide variety of reactionary, not movements but, outspoken individuals or small coalitions with platforms on the moderate fringe expressing opinions on the transgender community varying degrees of veracity. With or without mentioning individuals or small coalitions, what tend to be the modern expressed opinions coming from them?

Piercey: I see significantly less negativity in the media as I did years ago. Everyday life is pleasant for the most part. There have been changes for the better as of late. I do hear, and it is seldom, a message from those who have concerns, and from those who have an issue with transgender people. It is often one of fear of the unknown or a resistance to change.

They are seldom transgender or are affected by the fact someone transitioned genders. I think you should always be your best self, let alone be afraid to be yourself. I find most people are friendly and efforts are made to be accommodating. Many have gone through the transition process with the knowledge gained. I believe everyone heard about the problems that we encountered, from all the transgender advocates the last several years. It is important to note. This is not a priority in most people’s lives. It was, for a time, in mine.

2. Jacobsen: What seems like the impact on the lives of the young in the transgender community who see or hear the more benign, inquiring, and curiosity-driven opinions expressed in the public sphere?

Piercey: The generation of younger transgender adults that I do encounter. Most have healthy lives; some are open about being transgender, some are not. It isn’t that big of a deal. People are not bound as much by gender roles as I was growing up in the seventies. I changed with the times. I honestly don’t think about gender that much.

I do see more positive media regarding transgender people. That was missing for me to have good role models when I started. There are shows, celebrities, and stories with happy endings now. It is not all doom and gloom. I see other transgender people when I am about town, not often, but you do notice when you get served by or pass each other on the street.

3. Jacobsen: What seems like the impact on the lives of the young in the transgender community who see or hear the more aggressive, judgmental, and denialist opinions expressed in the public sphere?

Piercey: It is terrible, I don’t understand why anyone would want to scare or hurt anybody. This kind of rhetoric does tremendous harm. Once you start believing another person’s opinion of you, you lost who you are, your identity or individuality. Imagine living with being judged all the time, discriminated against or harassed. That is not a life and shouldn’t be tolerated by anybody. There is no room for hate. There is no argument if transgender is real or acceptable. It is. Now it is time to help transgender people integrate into everyday society not fight with them.

4. Jacobsen: Moving forward into the 2020s, what would best help the public acceptance of the transgender community?

Piercey: Education is vital. It isn’t difficult to be kind to others. People are people. I never saw transgender people as different. For me, it would have helped to move through the system much quicker. I lost years in comparison back then. My problems are behind me now. I transitioned, and I have a normal life. I get to contribute back to society. The public accepts me. I can take care of myself. I am independent. That is what was important on my journey. I am now on to the next step. Life as a woman, problem solved. That is what the public needs to hear to help acceptance.

5. Jacobsen: Moving forward into the 2020s, what would best help the transition of the trans individuals within the transgender community in coordination with their medical provider?

Piercey: Supports should be in place. Your doctor is one aspect of your life, what about housing, employment, poverty and other issues faced. This is about productive lives and providing the help needed for these individuals to move forward. There are unique challenges that are to be addressed and can no longer be dismissed or misunderstood. Removing the need for advocacy will improve lives.

When opportunities are available for services provided such as surgeries, counselling or other requirements, then you will see less of urgency in the community. Transitioning at an older age, may be rare in the future. It will be diagnosed and monitored earlier. Then like most health decisions, they are made by families or the individual. People may never know about a prolonged period of transitioning, dealing with a stigma or being outside of the system.

6. Jacobsen: What medical and other options are becoming better, more precise, safer, and so on, for the transgender community? Typically, as technology gets better and wider spread, it becomes cheaper and comes with fewer complications.

Piercey: Access to the current medical system will be profound. Forget about new technologies. Transgender health issues are now being addressed and respected. We are all going to learn from each other and over time improve the delivery of services. That is a start.

The excuses of the past about the costs and lack of adequate professionals available with expertise in transgender health will eventually be solved. Most transgender surgeries are the same procedures performed for other reasons. It is not necessary to label transgender health as different. With social acceptance, we can get back to helping people become healthy. If a surgery can help you, and doctors do it all the time, why not help people. Transgender people shouldn’t have to wait five to ten years to get a surgery that others can get in six months for a different reason in a government hospital.

In the past to have my gender change recognized I had to go through the government medical system, and I did. If you went out of the country or had it done by an uncertified medical profession your application to change gender could be rejected. Today, you can change your gender on your identification by filling out a form. The government shouldn’t make life harder for anybody. If someone is living as the opposite sex than they were born in, they get to have a valid id. It is undeniably essential to have proper identification. Changes like this are all relatively new and will help over time.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Co-Chair – Ministry of Status of Women Sub-Committee of Human Rights, CFUW FCFDU; Vice Chair National Women’s Liberal Commission at Liberal Party of Canada | Parti libéral du Canada; Mentor, Canadian Association for Business Economics.

[2] Individual Publication Date: January 15, 2019: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/piercey-three; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Stacey Piercey on the Transgender Canadian Citizens, the Media, and Health Concerns (Part Three) [Online].November 2019; 19(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/piercey-three.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2019, January 15). An Interview with Stacey Piercey on the Transgender Canadian Citizens, the Media, and Health Concerns (Part Three). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/piercey-three.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Stacey Piercey on the Transgender Canadian Citizens, the Media, and Health Concerns (Part Three). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 19.A, November. 2019. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/piercey-three>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Stacey Piercey on the Transgender Canadian Citizens, the Media, and Health Concerns (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 19.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/piercey-three.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Stacey Piercey on the Transgender Canadian Citizens, the Media, and Health Concerns (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 19.A (January 2019). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/piercey-three.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2019, ‘An Interview with Stacey Piercey on the Transgender Canadian Citizens, the Media, and Health Concerns (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 19.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/piercey-three>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2019, ‘An Interview with Stacey Piercey on the Transgender Canadian Citizens, the Media, and Health Concerns (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 19.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/piercey-three.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Stacey Piercey on the Transgender Canadian Citizens, the Media, and Health Concerns (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 19.A (2018):January. 2019. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/piercey-three>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Stacey Piercey on the Transgender Canadian Citizens, the Media, and Health Concerns (Part Three) [Internet]. (2019, January; 19(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/piercey-three.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2019. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2019-01-15

Ask Terrah 1— Retail and Customer Service

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee: Dr. Lloyd Hawkeye Robertson

Numbering: Issue 2: Here We Go

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: Question Time

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: January 15, 2019

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,017

Keywords: philosophy, Scott Douglas Jacobsen, Terrah Short.

Terrah Short earned a Bachelor’s in Philosophy (Analytic) with a Minor in Disaster Risk Reduction from Western Washington University in March 2017. She is a product of a working single father and the Puget Sound area of Western Washington in the United States of America. Here we talk about retail.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: A significant number of North Americans work in retail. The stores will come from a variety of brands but also will attract different customers from the high SES to the poor. What is the basic premise of retail service?

Terrah Short: When I think about the basic function, it is to be one of the middlemen that helps keep the flow of supply and demand, and to be the face of a store, essentially. As a retail worker, our roles can be as high up as being the manager of a store, an assistant manager of a particular section, to cashiering, stocking, and cleaning/ maintaining a store. Personally, the function I serve as a cashier is to assist customers, be the last face they see, and ensure they had a positive experience during their time shopping and completing their transaction.

Jacobsen: What have been some of the more grotesque forms of poor treatment by the customers to retailer workers seen in your retail work?

Short: When I’ve been on shift, I’ve been yelled at, cursed at, a customer has thrown things at me before. Thankfully these sorts of things don’t happen all the time, but they do happen and it’s upsetting. Some of the more uncomfortable situations have been when a customer feels entitled to touch me or grab me. The folks who do this tend to be middle-aged to older, white men.

Jacobsen: What have been some of the more heartwarming times?

Short: Working my first job, which was in retail, an older woman came into my work and myself and another coworker helped her find the things she needed. We were an office supply store, and she was so grateful for our demonstrated commitment to helping her, when she had many questions about the products, she made her purchase but told us to wait a minute. She went out to her car and brought in two hand-made teddy bears. She said she made them and loved to give them to people who deserved them. We were so warmed by this gesture. Experiences when we can provide genuine service to people, those are things I look forward to in my job. When we are able to go above and beyond for a customer, everyone is happy, and in those moments, it feels good to be recognized for our service.

Jacobsen: On average, are most people civil and respectful with retail workers?

Short: For the most part, I find that most people are just going about their day and treat others with civility and respect. There are people who are just having a bad day or had a bad experience, and we try to mitigate those situations, but not everyone is going to be happy or kind.

Jacobsen: What is the code of conduct and ethics for retail workers?

Short: Basically, be courteous, follow company policy, try to provide genuine service, and make it a positive experience to the best of our abilities. One thing I have noticed as a trend is giving more authority to retail workers to stand up to the abuse we can sometimes have from customers, especially women and minorities.

Jacobsen: If you look at the ways in which retail is done, what are some of the basic tasks and responsibilities given to rookies, newbies?

Short: Most often I feel we get thrown in with minimal hands-on training. An orientation that packs a lot of information in a short amount of time, cheesy corporate videos we have to watch, and maybe a couple hours of training and shadowing, depending on the time of year and how busy we are. At times new folks are just bodies when there’s going to be a busy time and availability is minimal. But most often, rookies/newbies are given the responsibilities listed in the job description right off the bat. This leads to a sink or swim environment, in my opinion.

Jacobsen: As an employee gains experience, how does this transition into more advanced skills and higher-responsibility positions?

Short: From what I’ve experienced, more advanced skills and responsibilities come from having a good attitude, improving your speed and efficiency, and being able to provide consistent customer satisfaction with minimal negative experiences show managers that there is a reason to move someone up. A lot of the time, you can be excellent at your current position but your availability isn’t right for moving up. There is upward mobility in many retail jobs, but often it means little pay or benefits increases for quite a significant amount more work. It really depends on the corporation or business, as well. However, I find that retail workers build an incredible amount of skills that can bleed over to other types of jobs or future schooling opportunities.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Terrah.

Image Credit: Terrah Short.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and Question Time by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com and https://medium.com/question-time

Copyright 

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time 2012-2020. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2019-01-14

Ask Dr. Robertson 3 — Social and Psychological Sciences Gone Wrong

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee: Dr. Lloyd Hawkeye Robertson

Numbering: Issue 2: Here We Go

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: Question Time

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: January 14, 2019

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,929

Keywords: Lloyd Hawkeye Robertson, psychology, Scott Douglas Jacobsen.

Dr. Lloyd Hawkeye Robertson is a Registered Doctoral Psychologist with expertise in Counselling Psychology, Educational Psychology, and Human Resource Development. He earned qualifications in Social Work too.

His research interests include memes as applied to self-knowledge, the evolution of religion and spirituality, the Aboriginal self’s structure, residential school syndrome, prior learning recognition and assessment, and the treatment of attention deficit disorder and suicide ideation.

In addition, he works in anxiety and trauma, addictions, and psycho-educational assessment, and relationship, family, and group counseling. Here we talk about different notions of empirical and ethical wrongness (and rightness) in science in general and then in psychological and social sciences in particular.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: When do social and psychological sciences go wrong? In that, the hidden premises of the field poison the research questions asked and skew the findings in response to the questions.

Dr. Lloyd Hawkeye Robertson: The first part of your question, Scott, is “when do sciences go wrong?” The answer, of course, is “all the time.” Science is, at its core, careful observation. It is always possible that our observations are imperfect, or that our interpretations of well-observed phenomena are mistaken. Therefore, scientists will always acknowledge that their knowledge claims are provisional, dependent on further evidence. This is why, in modern science, replication and peer review are so important in identifying any biases that may have affected interpretations placed on research.

You may have been referring to Thomas Kuhn with respect to the second part of your question on hidden premises. Kuhn said that for a discipline to become a science it had to be united by a paradigm which he defined as a body of intertwined theoretical and methodological belief. In 1970 he declared psychology to be a proto-science because it lacked such a unifying paradigm. A quarter of a century later Pat Duffy Hutcheon examined three possible paradigmic formulations in psychology — the psychoanalysis of Freud, the developmentalism of Piaget, and the classical behaviourism of Skinner — and she found all had failed to establish themselves as the dominant paradigm in psychology for various reasons. I believe that since then a fourth paradigm has implicitly taken root in the field and that is the subject of the final chapter in a book I am writing about the evolution of the self. That paradigm is based on our self-definition as a species that includes our selves as discreet, relatively stable, volitional, reflective and rational beings. At this time results within the field of psychotherapy are overwhelmingly interpreted from this cognitivist paradigm. Consistently obtained scientific results that cannot be understood within this paradigm would force a scientific revolution replacing this paradigm with another more inclusive one. I suppose you could say the research and interpretations of findings are “poisoned” by the assumptions built into the more primitive paradigm. The classical example of this would be the pre-Copernican notion that Earth was the center of the universe. Using this paradigm, the planets exhibited complicated orbits around Earth, sometime speeding up or slowing down, performing strange loops and so on until the paradigm shifted placing our sun in the center of the solar system. I have argued that an emerging paradigm in psychology includes a self-definition of us as a species as volitional and capable of rational choice (see: https://www.hawkeyeassociates.ca/images/pdf/academic/Free_Will.pdf). It has been argued that such a view favours the construct of individualism and “poisons” the individuals so-counselled against collectivism. I do not happen to share that view. But that is an academic debate.

I do not believe the general public perceives the self-correcting tentativeness built into science. Instead of viewing science as a method for obtaining knowledge, they often view it as a belief system like a religion or an ideology. Religions and ideologies encourage this misunderstanding because they identify Truth, with a capital T, as authoritative and absolute. If scientific evidence runs counter to what they take as authoritatively true, then science is seen as a defective belief system that has “gone wrong.” An example of this would be the attack on the theory of evolution by people who want to believe Earth is only 6,000 years old. A second example would be people who believe environmental scientists are part of a great conspiracy to fake evidence related to global warming. A third example would be people who wish to think that evidence debunking notions that our minds are a “blank slate” when we are born are part of a patriarchal backlash. In an interview with the late Carl Sagan, the Dalai Lama said that if science proved reincarnation was impossible, then Buddhism would have to change. We need to carry something of that understanding into all our belief systems or we end up becoming the mindless servant of those belief systems.

Jacobsen: If we look at some aspects of interests for you, and if we look at some long and dark periods in Canadian history for some demographics within Canada, have social and psychological sciences been utilized in such a way to impact Indigenous communities disproportionately negatively? If so, how so?

Robertson: When I was Director of Health and Social Development for the Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations during the 1980s, many chiefs repeated the refrain that they had been “studied to death.” They were, of course, not claiming that they had been physically harmed. They were claiming that there had been numerous studies and they had not seen any positive results. In some cases, studies were conducted but the results were not communicated back to the communities in question. I believe that knowledge should be “open access” and shared between all stakeholders.

The question as to how psychological knowledge has been utilized is, of course, a different question. While I was Director of Health and Social Development, a band education authority in a reserve in northern Saskatchewan hired a psychometrician from Edmonton to assess the intelligence of their elementary students. Sixty percent of the students were labelled mentally handicapped. My master’s thesis is on cultural bias in intelligence testing, and I know the reserve community in question and I can tell you that the psychometrician must not have followed test protocol with respect to testing children whose second language is English and who come from cultural traditions do not favour speeded, timed tests. At first, the band education committee was happy with these results as they received considerable extra funding for special needs children. But this was, in my opinion, a false economy with a negative impact. You see, educational programming for mentally handicapped is quite different from what was needed. When I was Director of Life Skills for the Saskatchewan Indian Federated College during its early years, we educated students from often remote communities in those habits of mind and organizational skills that were needed for academic success. The program added an extra year to the student’s university education, but it was incredibly successful. Teaching students cross-cultural skills for academic success in a modern industrial society is better than teaching independent living skills aimed at the mentally challenged in such cases.

Jacobsen: Using the same sciences but asking better research questions with the greater good of society and individuals in mind, what may alleviate some of the impacts of phenomena including residential school syndrome?

Robertson: A good research question is one that when answered extends our knowledge in some way. Accumulated knowledge may then be used to bring improvements to society but that is beyond the purview of scientists in their role as scientists. I am suspicious of power-brokers limiting research based on some notion of the “greater good.” For example, a former prime minister limited research into climate change presumably because he and his party felt this was in the greater good. Decisions by authorities on what constitutes the greater good are often ideologically based. That being said, research into ways to alleviate human suffering interests me, and as you have alluded, residential school syndrome has been one of my interests.

As a kid who stayed with the families of friends on reserve in the 60s, I knew something about the dark history of Indian residential schools. So, I was surprised when chiefs in Saskatchewan commissioned me, along with my colleague Perry Redman, to do research into keeping one of these schools open after they had been closed elsewhere in the country. Later, I was hired as a school psychologist with a specialty in youth suicide prevention at a different Indian Residential School that was kept open under an Amerindian administration. About a decade after that I was commissioned by Indian Child and Family Services in Lac La Ronge to assess the students at one of the last remaining residential schools in the country. Then, at the turn of the millennium, I accepted a contract with the Aboriginal Healing Foundation to provide psychological support to various projects aimed at alleviating the effects of residential schools in northern Saskatchewan. I have published articles on residential school syndrome and the related concept of historic trauma.

Residential school syndrome is a form of post traumatic stress disorder that affects a minority of people who attended residential schools and is characterized by symptoms like extreme rage, lack of emotional connection with one has children, and aggressive alcohol and drug abuse in addition to those symptoms that are normally associated with PTSD. I have found a combination of Cognitive Behaviour Therapy coupled with aspects of Narrative Therapy that draws on the tradition of aboriginal storytelling as a way of meaning making to be effective. Treatment needs to be individualized. Some clients have benefited from learning and practicing aboriginal traditions, but others have a different worldview. In one of my articles I describe how the elders in one community found attempts by their band health administration to introduce Aboriginal Spirituality to be oppressive (see: https://www.hawkeyeassociates.ca/images/pdf/academic/ColonizationStanley.pdf)

A concern I have is the tendency of some to essentialize and universalize experience. One woman approached me worried that she might be “in denial.” She had good memories of her residential school experience and was leading a happy and productive life, but the negative media reports about these schools had led her to question her remembered experiences. Not all residential schools were the same and not all students at such schools suffered or witnessed abuse. Even worse, in my opinion, is the concept of historic trauma, where a whole race of people is said to suffer from a psychological condition irrespective of when, where and under what conditions colonization occurred. In my mind, undo psychologising is destructive of peoples’ mental health.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Dr. Robertson.

Image Credit: Dr. Lloyd Hawkeye Robertson.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and Question Time by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com and https://medium.com/question-time

Copyright 

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time 2012-2020. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2019-01-14

Ask Dr. Weld 3 — The Demographic Rap: Terms and Definitions

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee: Dr. Madeline Weld

Numbering: Issue 2: Here We Go

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: Question Time

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: January 14, 2019

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 4,283

Keywords: Madeline Weld, Population Institute Canada, Scott Douglas Jacobsen.

Madeline Weld, B.Sc., M.S., Ph.D., is the President of the Population Institute Canada. She worked for and has retired from Health Canada. She is a Director of Canadian Humanist Publications and an editor ofHumanist Perspectives.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What are some of the more common terms, and their definitions, used with demography?

Dr. Madeline Weld: A glossary of all the common terms would take many pages and probably put most of your readers to sleep. But I’ve listed many of the most relevant terms and invite readers who want to know more to check online glossaries like the ones at the links below.

Abortion rate: The number of abortions per 1,000 women ages 15–44 or 15–49 in a given year.

Abortion ratio: The number of abortions per 1,000 live births in a given year.

Birth control: Practices that permit sexual intercourse with reduced likelihood of conception and birth. Abortion is included in the definition of birth control.

Carrying capacity: This is an ecological term that you won’t find in a glossary of demography although it is relevant to humans. Carrying capacity refers to the number of organisms of a given species that can be supported indefinitely in a given environment. (See also Overshoot.)

Cohort: A group of people sharing a common temporal demographic experience who are observed through time.

Contraception: Practices that permit sexual intercourse with reduced likelihood of conception. Modern methods include the pill, injectable hormones (such as Depo-Provera), implants (small hormone-releasing rods implanted in the upper arm), intra-uterine devices or IUDs, condoms, and sterilization.

Contraceptive prevalence: Percentage of couples currently using a contraceptive method.

Crude birth rate: Births per 1000 population.

Crude death rate: Deaths per 1000 population.

Demographic transition: The historical shift of birth and death rates from high to low levels in a population. The mortality decline usually precedes the fertility decline, resulting in rapid population growth during the transition period.

Demography: The scientific study of human populations, including their sizes, compositions, distributions, densities, growth, and other characteristics, as well as the causes and consequences of changes in these factors.

Doubling time: The number of years required for the population of an area to double its present size, given the current rate of population growth.

Emigration rate: The number of emigrants departing an area of origin per 1,000 population in that area of origin in a given year.

Family planning: The conscious effort of couples to regulate the number and spacing of births through artificial and natural methods of contraception. Family planning connotes conception control to avoid pregnancy and abortion, but it also includes efforts of couples to induce pregnancy.

Fecundity: The physiological capacity of a woman to produce a child.

Fertility: The actual reproductive performance of an individual, a couple, a group, or a population. See general fertility rate.

General fertility rate: The number of live births per 1,000 women ages 15–44 or 15–49 years in a given year.

Growth rate (or population growth rate): The annual rate of change in the size of a population. This change includes the increase (or decrease) from births over deaths and the net migration (immigration minus emigration), expressed as a percentage of the population at the beginning of the time period.

Immigration rate: The number of immigrants arriving at a destination per 1,000 population at that destination in a given year.

Infant mortality ratio: The number of deaths of infants under age 1 per 1,000 live births in a given year.

Life expectancy: The average number of additional years a person could expect to live if current mortality trends were to continue for the rest of that person’s life. Most commonly cited as life expectancy at birth.

Maternal mortality ratio: The number of women who die as a result of pregnancy and childbirth complications per 100,000 live births in a given year.

Migration: The movement of people across a specified boundary for the purpose of establishing a new or semi-permanent residence. Migration can be international (between countries) or internal (within a country).

Net migration: The estimated rate of net migration (immigration minus emigration) per 1,000 population. For some countries, data are derived as a residual from estimated birth, death, and population growth rates.

Net migration rate: The net effect of immigration and emigration on an area’s population, expressed as an increase or decrease per 1,000 population of the area in a given year.

Overshoot: This is not a term that you are likely to find in a glossary of demography, although it should be there. In population ecology, overshoot occurs when a population temporarily exceeds the long-term carrying capacity of its environment. This situation arises when a species or population encounters a rich and previously unexploited stock of resources that promotes its increase. When the stock is exhausted, the species faces a precipitous population decline or crash. Many ecologists think that the age of oil has sent the human population into overshoot.

Population: The total number of persons inhabiting a country, city, or any district or area.

Population control: A broad concept that addresses the relationship between fertility, mortality, and migration, but is most commonly used to refer to efforts to slow population growth through action to lower fertility

Population density: Population per unit of land area; for example, people per square mile or people per square kilometer of arable land.

Population increase (or population growth): The total population increase resulting from the interaction of births, deaths, and migration in a population in a given period of time.

Population momentum: The tendency for population growth to continue beyond the time that replacement-level fertility has been achieved because of the relatively high concentration of people in the childbearing years.

Population projections: Computation of future changes in population numbers, given certain assumptions about future trends in the rates of fertility, mortality, and migration. Demographers often issue low, medium, and high projections of the same population, based on different assumptions of how these rates will change in the future.

Replacement level fertility: The level of fertility at which a couple has only enough children to replace themselves, or about two children per couple.

Rule of 70: You aren’t likely to find this term in a demography glossary but it’s very useful to determine the approximate doubling time of a population based on the annual growth rate. To get the doubling time, divide 70 by the annual growth rate. For example, populations growing at 1, 2, and 3% annually have respective doubling times of 70, 35, and 23 years.

Total fertility rate (TFR): The average number of children that would be born alive to a woman (or group of women) during her lifetime if she were to pass through her childbearing years conforming to the age-specific fertility rates of a given year. This rate is sometimes stated as the number of children women are having today.

Unmet need: Women with unmet need for spacing births are those who are able to become pregnant and sexually active but are not using any method of contraception (modern or traditional), and report wanting to delay the next child or limit their number of births.

Zero population growth: A population in equilibrium, with a growth rate of zero, achieved when births plus immigration equal deaths plus emigration.

You can get more information about terminology at these and many other sites:

https://www.prb.org/glossary/

https://population.un.org/wpp/General/GlossaryDemographicTerms.aspx

http://www.iiep.unesco.org/sites/default/files/glossary_demographic_terms.pdf

http://www.bestlibrary.org/ss11/files/glossary_of_demography_and_population.doc

Jacobsen: How are these terms properly and improperly used within the mainstream and colloquial discourse?

Weld: I would say that there is an overall lack of understanding of how enormously consequential human population growth is to everything that is happening in the world today. How many people know that Syria’s population quadrupled from 5 million to 20 million between 1950 and 2010? Once self-sufficient in wheat, Syria has become increasingly dependent on more expensive imported wheat. The 2007–2010 drought was the worst in modern history its water resources dropped by 50% between 2002 and 2008. Crop failures led to hundreds of thousands of people from predominantly Sunni rural areas into coastal cities traditionally dominated by the Alawite minority. I’m not saying that population growth is the only cause of the political violence in Syria, but I am saying that things would probably have gone a lot better if Syria’s population had remained stable at 5 million. The same applies to many other countries that are currently conflict zones and sources of massive outmigration. The pivotal role of human population growth in the global environmental crisis is also often underplayed.

There is an inherent bias in reporting about growth in general. If a city, region or country has a decreasing population, it is often reported in terms such as “suffering a population loss” while growth will be reported in positive terms. More fuss has been made in the media about Japan’s shrinking population than about the out-of-control growth in many sub-Saharan countries, Syria, Gaza and some others. Yet Japan is coping much better with its decreasing population than the others are with their growing populations.

As for the use of demographic terms, many people probably couldn’t give dictionary-perfect definitions of a lot of them and many may confuse such terms as fecundity and fertility (both defined above). Nevertheless, the gist of some terms can be intuitively grasped. For example, the definition of total fertility rate (TFR) given above may sound a bit convoluted, but in a nutshell it is the average number of children that women of a given country or region have in their lifetime. Most people would probably get some sense of that from the term itself.

I am going to discuss six areas where I think there is often a lack of understanding of issues even when demographic terms are technically used correctly. And I am also going to discuss the concept of overshoot, a term used by ecologists but which many think is applicable to the trajectory of the human population.

(1) Population density

This refers to the number of people per unit land area. Canada is said to have a low population density based on dividing its total surface area by the number of inhabitants. But that crude statistic does not reflect the reality of Canada. Most of us live within 150 km of the US border and much of the southern part of Canada is as densely populated as any other developed country. It would be more realistic to determine Canada’s population density by dividing about one-tenth of its surface area by its population. Our immigration policy is based on this myth of endless space, but most newcomers not surprisingly congregate in our cities instead of trying to make a living in all that wide open tundra. Because of this rapid population growth in our southern belt, our cities are experiencing significant stresses on infrastructure and social services and we are losing farmland, wildlife habitat, and biodiversity.

(2) Population growth and population growth rate

Population growth or population increase refers to the increase (or decrease) of the absolute numbers of a population. It is the sum of births over deaths and immigration minus emigration. A country like Canada, with a below replacement fertility rate of 1.6, can grow rapidly because of high immigration levels.

The population growth rate refers to the annual rate of change in the size of a population as a percentage of that population at the beginning of the time period. A population can be growing in absolute numbers even if its rate of growth is slowing down. The growth rate of the global population has in fact slowed down a lot in the past several decades. This has led to a perception among many (including in the media) that the problem is solving itself. But the absolute number of people being added annually has gone up, because the size of the population is bigger. This is illustrated in the table below.

Image Credit: Dr. Madeline Weld.

It is the absolute number of people that puts pressure on the environment. Yet many people seem to think that a decreasing growth rate solves the problem.

(3) Total fertility rate (TFR)

This refers to the average number of children women in a given country or region have during their lifetime. For 2018, the global TFR was 2.5, according to the UNFPA’s State of World Population for that year. The plummeting TFR of recent decades is a good thing, and again this is often considered to indicate that the population problem is solving itself. But to consider only the global TFR, as is sometimes done when the topic is global population growth, is a big mistake, because the global figure includes huge disparities among individual regions and countries. For example, the countries defined by the UNFPA as “more developed regions” have a TFR of 1.7, while those in the “less developed regions” have a TFR of 2.6, and the “least developed countries” have an average TFR of 4.0. The TFR of Somalia is 6.1 and of Niger 7.1. Many, probably most, or the countries with very high TFRs are failed or failing states, with emigration pressures that are already huge and that will likely only worsen with time. Africa’s population is projected to explode from 1.2 billion today to 2 billion by 2050 and over 4 billion by 2100.

(4) Contraceptive prevalence versus unmet need

Contraceptive prevalence refers to the percentage of couples using a contraceptive method. Unmet need refers to women who are able to become pregnant, sexually active, do not want to become pregnant but are not using contraceptives. There is sometimes considered to be a direct correlation between contraceptive prevalence and unmet need (i.e., all reproductive-age women who are not trying to become pregnant but not using contraceptives represent an unmet need). However, in some cases a low contraceptive prevalence does not reflect a lack of access to contraceptives (unmet need) but a desire for a large family. That is why the completely hands-off approach taken at the 1994 International Conference on Population and Development (Cairo conference) with regard to promoting small families represents a huge failure, in my opinion. People were to “freely and responsibly” decide on the number and spacing of their children, but this idealistic thinking did not take into consideration the strong influence of cultural norms, religion, and tradition on desired family size. The UN developed no programs to educate people about the impact of population growth and to promote smaller families. (Unlike, for example, programs to promote and implement child immunization that were developed right after the World Health Organization was created.)

Lack of access is only one of many reasons for a low contraceptive prevalence. For example, according to the 2008–09 Demographic and Health Survey (USAID), 96% of married women in Kenya and 98% of their husbands knew about modern contraceptives. Of the married women who were non-users, 40% did not intend to ever use contraception. Among all non-using married women, 8% gave as their reason the desire for more children. Among the reasons given for not using contraception by women who were not pregnant and did not want to become pregnant, only 0.8% cited lack of availability of contraceptives, and 0.4% cited cost. The top four reasons among those who are still fecund: (1) concern with the medical side effects of contraceptives (31%); 2) religious prohibition (9%); (3) personal opposition (8%); and (4) opposition from the husbands (6%). (The information on the DHS survey is from a December 2012 paper by William Ryerson of the Population Media Center.) In a 2015 presentation by Dr. Ryerson summarizing the major reasons given for non-use of contraceptives in over 30 rapidly growing countries, lack of access was the main reason in only 1% (a single country) or below of the people surveyed in every country. The major reason was fear of side effects, followed to varying degrees depending on country by health concerns, religious prohibition, opposition by spouse, and lack of knowledge.

Changing high fertility rates is much more than a matter of making contraceptives available at an affordable cost (although that is extremely important). People must understand the benefits in terms of health, wealth, and the environment, and overcome their fears that contraceptives are dangerous or that family planning is unacceptable for religious or other reasons.

(5) Population projections

Population projections (or estimates of what a given population will be at some future time) are based on assumptions about fertility, mortality, and migration and are therefore only as good as those assumptions. It is because of these uncertainties that demographers often have low, medium, and high population projections based on differing assumptions about the parameters affecting population growth. At one point there was optimism that the world population would peak at 9 billion before 2100 and then decline, but current projections are for a still-growing population of over 11 billion in 2100. Almost all of the increase in the projected global population is because fertility rates did not fall as quickly in sub-Saharan Africa as had been assumed. In 2004, the United Nations projected a population for Africa in 2100 of 2 billion, but by 2015 had upped its projection for 2100 to 4 billion. The increase in the projected population of sub-Saharan Africa accounted for almost all of the increase in the projected global population.

Assumptions are sometimes based on what had happened previously in other countries. It has often been assumed that the “demographic transition” that occurred in developed countries would automatically occur all over the world. Unfortunately, this has not proven to be the case in sub-Saharan Africa and some other countries.

One thing that population projections do not take into account is the depletion of resources. The human population may not undergo the gradual decline that demographers foresee based on their assumptions of fertility decline, but a rather more abrupt crash based on resource shortages, starvation, war, the outbreak of diseases resistant to antibiotics, and other dystopian factors (see Overshoot below).

(6) Demographic transition and demographic transition theory (DTT) or model (DTM)

Many people have heard of the demographic transition theory. There is probably no theory that has done more to make people complacent about human population growth than the DTT. The videos on the subject by the charming and entertaining Hans Rosling spring to mind.

The demographic transition theory posits that societies will transition from having high fertility and high mortality to low fertility and low mortality as a natural consequence of socioeconomic modernization. The transition is usually divided into four stages. In the first stage, the population of a society is fairly stable because the high birth rate is balanced by a high death rate. In the second stage, as the society develops and health and hygiene improve, the death rate falls but the birth rate remains high, leading to rapid population growth. In stage 3, population growth starts to decrease as the birth rate falls due to better economic conditions, more education and an improvement in the status of women, and more access to contraception. In stage 4, both the birth rate and the death rate are low, and population growth is negligible or even declining.

The demographic transition theory describes reasonably accurately what happened when Europe transitioned from the middle ages to a modern industrial society. The mistake that many people made and continue to make is to assume that what happened in Europe would automatically be repeated everywhere else. The DTT was embraced by the 1987 Brundtland Commission on sustainable development. Sustainable development would be achieved through economic growth in developing countries, social equity, and environmental protection. But how would these be achieved without controlling population growth? The demographic transition would take care of it because people would have fewer children as they became richer. The same thinking guided the International Conference on Population and Development in Cairo in 1994.

Since 1987, when the Brundtland Commission published its report Our Common Future, the global population has grown from 5 billion to over 7.6 billion. Much of the hoped for development has stalled because of population growth, and the natural world and its biodiversity have been massively affected. As discussed above, large families are still considered desirable in many countries experiencing rapidly population growth, and little is being done to change this mindset.

Much emphasis has been placed on things like education for girls and economic development to indirectly address population growth. There is indeed a negative correlation between the level of female education and the TFR, and education and equal opportunities for girls and women are desirable in their own right. But, as Dr. Jane O’Sullivan has shown, expecting an increase in wealth to lead to a reduction in fertility is putting the cart before the horse. O’Sullivan showed that fertility decline typically preceded marked increases in wealth, and per capita wealth growth was accelerated when fertility fell to between two and three births per woman. Girls’ education was neither a pre-requisite nor a sufficient measure to drive fertility decline, while fertility decline was a necessary if not sufficient condition for sustained economic growth. O’Sullivan asserts that the data do not support the mantra that “development is the best contraception,” but that they make a case for “contraception is the best development stimulus.” (Jane O’Sullivan, “Revisiting the demographic transition: correlation and causation in the rate of development and fertility decline,” 2013)

There is an urgent need to make population growth an issue in its own right. Some countries, such as Bangladesh and Thailand, have done so. But most have not, nor has the United Nations made population growth a central part of its Millennium Development Goals (launched in 2000) or its Sustainable Development Goals (launched in 2016). The American population activist Rob Harding has proposed a UN Framework Convention on Population Growth, in which every country would take responsibility to bring its own population to a sustainable level. Other countries could help rapidly growing countries to achieve a sustainable population, but would not be expected to take in their surplus population (which appears to be the objective of the UN’s Global Compact on Safe, Orderly and Regular Migration).

In short, the demographic transition theory has been accorded far too much respect as a predictive too for population growth in much of the world and should be knocked off its pedestal. We can no longer rely on population growth being slowed indirectly through development and education. All countries must find ethical, culturally appropriate ways to slow to bring and keep their population at a sustainable level. We are nowhere near that point yet.

(7) Overshoot

William Catton’s book Overshoot was published in 1980. It is as relevant today as it was then and every decision-maker who thinks that there can be infinite growth on a finite planet (i.e., pretty much all decision-makers) should be forced to read it. The gist of Catton’s book is that oil provided the energy for humans to draw down the world’s resources, which has allowed the human population to greatly exceed the long-term carrying capacity of the Earth (i.e., to go into overshoot). When resources become scarce or run out, there won’t be enough to support the human population, which is likely to undergo a steep decline or a crash. The world is an ecosystem with limits to growth and nature will have the last word.

It took until 1804 for the human population to reach one billion. It increased to 2 billion by 1927, and 3 billion by 1960. The next three billion were in 1974, 1987, and 1999. In 2011, the human population reached 7 billion, and is now over 7.6 billion. Our population increases by 1,000,000,000 every dozen or so years. There is an eerie parallel of this spectacular increase in the growth of the reindeer population on St. Matthew Island, a remote outcrop in the Bering Sea, 300 km from Alaska. In 1944, the US Coast Guard established a LORAN (long-range radio navigation system) on St. Matthew Island, and released 29 reindeer as a backup food source for personnel. The station was decommissioned within months but the reindeer stayed and found themselves in a paradise rich in their favourite food, lichen. There were also no natural predators on the island. In the summer of 1957, researchers went to the island and found that the 29 reindeer had increased to 1350. They were in good health from their nutritious diet. Researchers visited again in the summer of 1963, and counted 6000 reindeer. But the lichen had all been consumed and the reindeer were feeding on sedge grass. Their health had deteriorated. In 1966, researchers again visited the island. They found it littered with reindeer skeletons, with only 42 reindeer remaining: one infertile male, 41 cows and no calves. The reindeer population on the island would die off completely. A graph of the phase of population increase of reindeer on St. Matthew Island bears a disconcerting resemblance to the graph of the increase in the human population since the beginning of the twentieth century. Let’s hope the human population graph doesn’t follow the trajectory of the reindeer population!

It’s true that the Earth is bigger than an island, and humans are smarter than reindeer, but we are exploiting resources globally on a colossal scale and the negative impacts of this drawdown of resources are becoming ever more evident. We would be wise to take heed.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Madeline.

Image Credit: Madeline Weld.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen is the Founder of In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal and In-Sight Publishing.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and Question Time by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com and https://medium.com/question-time

Copyright 

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time 2012-2020. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2019-01-08

An Interview with Joseph Emmanuel Yaba on Youth Sustainable Development in Africa

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 19.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fifteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: January 8, 2019

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,483

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Joseph Emmanuel Yaba is the CEO of Youth Initiative for Sustainable Human Development in Africa (YiSHDA). He discusses: background; sustainability; the reason for the focus on the young; building human capacity for young people; providing a bigger net of support; feedback; difficulties in the midst of the work of YiSHDA; and moving into 2019.

Keywords: Africa, CEO, Joseph Emmanuel Yaba, sustainability, Youth Initiative for Sustainable Human Development in Africa (YiSHDA).

An Interview with Joseph Emmanuel Yaba on Youth Sustainable Development in Africa: CEO, Youth Initiative for Sustainable Human Development in Africa (YiSHDA)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Let us simply start on some of the background for you.

Joseph Emmanuel Yaba: Thank you very much. My story proves that every young person can succeed and help others get there. I was not born with a silver spoon and I grew up in a home where I was taught that the best service one can give is service to humanity and that influenced my decision and calling into the civil society sector and has also impacted my work.

2. Jacobsen: In terms of sustainability, why is this such a particularly important goal or objective currently?

Yaba: For sustainability, we believe that the best form of sustainability is building the human capacity. There is a need to build human capacity, to continue to advocate for policies and programs that will impact positively in the society. Sustainability is key because it enables us to build tomorrow’s leader today so that they can meet the needs of the present without compromising the future.

3. Jacobsen: Is that the reason for the focus on the young as well?

Yaba: Yes, because there is a need for young people to be empowered and to harness their potential. For sustainable development to be achieved, young people need to be at the center of sustainable development and to be prepared also to work across all the thematic areas of sustainability and value creation.

As I said, human capacity is the best form of sustainability. Yes, we can build infrastructure. But it will, in time, go away, which is why human capacity in the most important. It is important for young people to take on leadership positions and to be part of the value creation.

4. Jacobsen: When you are trying to build the human capacity of young people, how are you going about doing that?

Yaba: We have carved a niche for ourselves in the areas of design and implementation of programs, especially in the areas of economic empowerment as our key special area. When people are empowered economically, they will be able to build a sustainable livelihood for themselves, families and the immediate community.

We have also carved a niche in governance and civic engagement. There is a need for young people to get into governance and work on accountability and transparency. Young people need to question why things are not working and how they should work.

We have also identified health and environmental sustainability. Our organization builds the human capacity through the above thematic areas.

5. Jacobsen: With this global emphasis or this emphasis on humanity, how does this provide a bigger net of not only support within a specific country or region, but also within the general populace and potential investors and supporters?

Yaba: Of course, Sustainable Development Goals is the center now, it is what the world is pursuing now. Our programs and projects have been designed to also aim at achieving the bigger goals, which is the SDGs. It is what the world leaders have set aside to achieve by 2030 and it is our collective responsibility to work towards it attainment.

It is not only the SDGs we are targeting. We are also targeting the African Union Agenda 2063. We are not just implementing on the smaller scale; we are also looking at the bigger picture. We call it working and acting locally but also making a global impact.

6. Jacobsen: What has been the feedback from people around the program involved in it, directly or indirectly?

Yaba: The feedback has been amazing. Of course, we have one or two challenges, but we are always committed regardless of the challenge. We are very much committed as an organization; we are very optimistic and very encouraged with the feedback from most of the beneficiaries.

It would be important to note that through our programs and activities we have impacted cumulatively a total of 20,000 young people. These are young people who are currently empowered, who have found something worthwhile. They are currently doing well in most of the fields that they have found themselves. We have track records of success with the young people who have been in the programs.

We have success stories and are still optimistic about still attaining more success stories.

7. Jacobsen: In terms of the difficulties, what have they been? How have you overcome them?

Yaba: As an organization, the number one challenge has always been the issue of funding. But we are not discouraged by the funding issue that we do not get too often. We still go ahead and make sure that we squeeze resources because we must keep the activities and programs running and maintained.

Regardless of our challenges, our organization takes pride in having young people who have tremendous skills. We use our skills to break our barriers. We use our skills as young people to push ahead. We take responsibility for our actions, for our beneficiaries and partner organization. We never let things weigh us down. We still go ahead to make sure we achieve our goals and our aims.

8. Jacobsen: Looking into 2019, what are some of the targeted objectives now?

Yaba: 2019 is a year of expansion and growth and leveraging on some of our success stories and to work on some of our programs as well. We are trying to see how we can explore better opportunities, leverage partnerships, leverage collaborations more; no organization or nobody is an island.

We all need collaboration. We all need assistance. To us, 2019 will be a year where we will expand and leverage on some of our success stories while, at the same time, looking for even better opportunities and also to achieve better results in terms of working on some of our programs and to getting into more community schools as well.

9. Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Joseph.

Yaba: Thank you very much, Scott, and thank you for the opportunity.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] CEO, Youth Initiative for Sustainable Human Development in Africa (YiSHDA).

[2] Individual Publication Date: January 8, 2019: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/yaba; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Joseph Emmanuel Yaba on Youth Sustainable Development in Africa [Online].November 2019; 19(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/yaba.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2019, January 8). An Interview with Joseph Emmanuel Yaba on Youth Sustainable Development in Africa. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/yaba.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Joseph Emmanuel Yaba on Youth Sustainable Development in Africa. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 19.A, November. 2019. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/yaba>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Joseph Emmanuel Yaba on Youth Sustainable Development in Africa.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 19.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/yaba.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Joseph Emmanuel Yaba on Youth Sustainable Development in Africa.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 19.A (January 2019). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/yaba.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2019, ‘An Interview with Joseph Emmanuel Yaba on Youth Sustainable Development in Africa‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 19.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/yaba>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2019, ‘An Interview with Joseph Emmanuel Yaba on Youth Sustainable Development in Africa‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 19.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/yaba.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Joseph Emmanuel Yaba on Youth Sustainable Development in Africa.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 19.A (2018):January. 2019. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/yaba>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Joseph Emmanuel Yaba on Youth Sustainable Development in Africa [Internet]. (2019, January; 19(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/yaba.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2019. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2019-01-06

Ask Sally 1 — Drawing the Lines for Progressivism in 2019

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee: Catherine Broomfield

Numbering: Issue 2: Here We Go

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: Question Time

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: January 6, 2019

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 647

Keywords: activist, Sally Buxbaum Hunt, Scott Douglas Jacobsen, Sex-Positive.

Sally Buxbaum Hunt is a Sexual Education, Sex-Positive, Separation of Church and State Activist and Organizer, and a Progressive. Here we talk about demarcating the lines between progressive and non-progressive for 2019.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: How can progressives define what is and is not progressivism?

Sally Buxbaum Hunt: Being progressive means being willing to advocate for the most overly burdened, marginalized, and struggling people in this country, fighting for policies that benefit the middle class, the working class, and the poor, as well as minorities in this nation, too (e.g., people of color, LGBT, and so on), it means being willing to advocate for changes in policies and in the status quo.

I think this is the difference between progressives and moderate Democrats who would not necessarily identify as progressives. I think we have to be both. I think we have to be a progressive and liberal democrat. But the progressive part is the most important part.

It means that we are advocating for changes in policy that will benefit people who need changes, who are hurt and suffering because of the status quo. The status quo favors the richest people in the nation.

It causes more suffering in the working class, the middle class, and the poor; it makes them poorer and even more burdened.

Jacobsen: If you could target some policies needing work, what would those be now?

Hunt: It would be raising taxes on the rich first in order for other things to happen. It can go hand-in-hand with other things. Definitely, Medicare for all; we need universal healthcare. That has to happen. We could easily afford it.

It would not be too difficult. It would be like every other developed nation in the world. It has to happen. People are sicker and more in debt, poorer than they have to be, which burdens employers as well.

It is the employers having to cover healthcare for their employees. It makes the employees feel as if they have to be employed and not be able to leave a job that they do not like. They feel as if they cannot become self-employed and entrepreneurs because they’ll lose their healthcare.

Number one, the raising of taxes for the rich has to happen. There are many other necessary policy changes, too. We should legalize marijuana. We should end the “War on Drugs.” It is destroying lives. In addition to universal healthcare, we need universal mental healthcare.

It needs to include drug rehabilitation programs. If we were to end this war on drugs and legalize drugs, instead of treating it as criminal activities, we would, actually, treat people and help them to get past their addictions and mental health issues leading to the drug use in the first place.

The education inequality, education should be federally funded and equally. It should not depend on property taxes.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Sally.

Hunt: Sure thing!

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In-Sight Publishing and Question Time by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com and https://medium.com/question-time

Copyright 

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time 2012-2020. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2019-01-04

Ask Catherine 2 — Meeting Youth Where They’re At

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee: Catherine Broomfield

Numbering: Issue 2: Here We Go

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: Question Time

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: January 4, 2019

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 763

Keywords: Catherine Broomfield, iHuman Youth Society, indigenous, Scott Douglas Jacobsen, youth.

Catherine Broomfield is the Executive Director of iHuman Youth Society. She loves the challenge and excitement of the job, especially with the diversity of the workplace and the people with non-profits. She has worked, in fact, in both the public and the private sectors. Here we talk about Indigenous troubled youth.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: How is meeting Indigenous troubled youth where they’re at help with the effectiveness of the programs at iHuman?

Catherine Broomfield: This principle of ‘meeting youth where they’re at’ or as we like to refer to as ‘keeping it real’ is fundamental to iHuman’s youth work practice and the overall operation of the agency. Working from this perspective means that our approach is based on relationship.

Being able to appreciate the place a youth is coming from requires creating a space that is safe and non judgmental. When we attune to what a young person needs there is no ego or expectation of the staff person involved — it isn’t about what we might think an appropriate response, action or solution might be, rather what does that young person think needs to be done now.

We like to ask ‘what happened’ so that we can gain appreciation for why a youth might be in the spot they are. Feedback from the youth tells us that other service providers often don’t take this approach.

That getting help is sometimes less about the person in need of help and more about the motivation of the person offering it. To act with the ‘keeping it real’ principle, iHuman staff are consistently asking themselves: am I helping because I want to be ‘the hero’; is my help enabling that person; or am I supporting that person to honour their own internal need.

This approach is a communal approach to helping which is reflective of Indigenous ways of community. Therefore, because we have put the young person in the driver’s seat, the effectiveness of the programs is ultimately in their control.

These aren’t solutions or options that adult staff came up with — these are solutions and actions from the young people themselves. This is where the effectiveness stems from.

Jacobsen: What are the prototypical trends in the issues some of these youths have, while also bearing in mind, within the question, that every child and young person is unique?

Broomfield: At the core of the issues iHuman youth experience is the erasure of identity. I’ve mentioned this previously — that the finding of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission on the genocide of Indigenous culture by the Government of Canada and/or its agents — can trace the systemic issues of trauma that manifest in the present day reality of young people.

Addiction, mental health, homelessness, isolation, violence; all of these point to the exclusion of certain people from being whole people in our society. The individual stories of the young people are unique and trace a path that is raw and painful; the common thread is that they do not know where they’re going because they do not know where they’ve been.

I was recently at a workshop where the following quote was posted on the wall. I do not know the author, his story or what he might do, however, it was attributed to William Pirar: “We are what we know. We are… also what we do not know. If what we know about ourselves — our history, our culture, our national identity — is deformed by absences, denials and incompleteness, then our identity is fragmented. Such a self lacks access both to itself and to the world”.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Catherine.

License and Copyright

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In-Sight Publishing and Question Time by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com and https://medium.com/question-time

Copyright 

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time 2012-2020. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2019-01-01

An Interview with Imam Soharwardy on Creationism, Evolution, and Islam

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 19.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fifteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,599

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Sufi Imam Syed Soharwardy is the Founder of the Islamic Supreme Council of Canada and the Founder of the Muslims Against Terrorism. He discusses: opening on creationism, evolution, and Islam; science and Islam; Christian young earth creationism; cosmology and textual analysis; Jinn; and Sufi Islam.

Keywords: Islam, Islamic Supreme Council of Canada, Jinn, Muslim, Muslims Against Terrorism, Sufi, Syed Soharwardy, young earth creationism.

An Interview with Sufi Imam Syed Soharwardy on Creationism, Evolution, and Islam: Founder, Islamic Supreme Council of Canada; Founder, Muslims Against Terrorism[1],[2],[3]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Let’s talk creationism, evolution, and Islam. 

Imam Soharwardy: It is the difference between the modern theory of evolution and Islamic Sufi theology. This is what we believe Islam is all about. It is an interpretation of some scholars of Islam over the past 14 centuries and in this last century or two.

There are new sects. They refer to new interpretations. Creation: Islam says there is the first point of creation. Science calls it Big Bang. We believe it, too. So, there was a big bang. It all started from a small, tiny particle.

It does not conflict with the teachings of Islam. But after that, once that big bang or starting point of creation, there is evolution. Evolution is the new transformation and creation of new species via Almighty Allah, into new shapes and forms.

But we also believe humans are not people from apes. We do not believe that. Science also rejected that theory. That human came from them. But we definitely believe everything that has started; they began as creations from Almighty God.

That’s what we call God. But the creation of things or species, or various types of the creation of God evolved from a point. That is what Sufiism gives. It is a beautiful description.

That the starting point is Almighty God Himself. He started God from this one big bang, and then it evolved into many, many millions and countless forms of God or species. If you reverse your creation process back to the original point, then that’s what it is all about.

It is what Sufis call going back to Almighty God. You will return to Him. This is what the Holy Quran says. The “return to Him” means that we will not exist and He will still exist. God will still exist. He is the starting point and the end of all creation.

But He Himself does not have any beginning or end.

2. Jacobsen: That’s interesting. The only stated that would not necessarily be within the mainstream biologists of all religious and non-religious stripes is, basically, human beings are another branch of an animal within the Great Primates.

We share a common ancestry with chimpanzees, gorillas,  and bonobos, and other primates. That would be the only thing. In terms of the statement, ‘Human beings did not come from apes.’

It would be insofar as a Sufi understanding, or as an Islamic, as you noted more general understanding, would take it. In terms of creation from a point and so on, none of that would contradict the modern scientific understanding in any way. 

Soharwardy: We believe humans are a separate species. The animals, the fish, and all kinds of living things; they are separate creations of God. But if you go back in a reverse cycle from now until the beginning of creation, you will see they started from one single point.

God is the Creator. God is the one point. That is the Big Bang.

3. Jacobsen: In North America, this tends to come more from the Christian community. They have various institutes. They have arks. They build creationism museums. Often, they will more likely take a young earth creationist view of the world.

It comes from Bishop James Ussher, who argued the world was about 6,000 years old. Of course, the estimates can range from 6,000-to-10,000-years-old in Young Earth Creationism.

Also, this can come from some other areas of the world, where Islam is more dominant than Christianity. For instance, one individual is Harun Yahya or Adnan Oktar who wrote The Atlas of Creation (2006).

So, what would be a proper understanding, insofar as you have it, of Islam to talk to those who may have more of a young earth creationist view of the world: Christian or Islam?

Soharwardy: I think this 5,000, 6,000, or 10,000, in terms of the teachings of the Bible, can look at Noah living to 950 years old. [Laughing] So, those who say a few thousand years old Earth. It is from the point of view of scripture an incorrect theory.

In the Holy Quran, there is no contradiction with the Quran or the Islamic theology, or what the Prophet said (PBUH).

Before Adam came to the planet Earth, there was life on the planet. There were trees. There were animals. Good existed for millions, millions, and millions of years. But we definitely believe the Earth is very, very old – millions of years.

Those who say 6,000, 10,000; it is in direct contradiction from my reading. It is not correct. It has to read millions of years.

4. Jacobsen: In terms of the Islamic cosmology with theological implications, what are some of the details other than creation from a point that comes from textual analysis of the Quran and the Hadith?

Soharwardy: According to some of the Sufis, though no exact numbers, and other smaller sects, there are 18,000 galaxies. But this is some scholars’ opinion or their observation. But the Quran counts of countless millions of galaxies.

That Allah says this is My own creation. Not my own galaxy but countless galaxies. Some, in Islamic theology, believe 18,000 galaxies, though.

5. Jacobsen: Also, for those who do not know, what are Jinnwithin Islamic theology? What other entities are mentioned as well?

Soharwardy: There are two kinds of creations. Through the Quran and the Bible, there are angels. There are Jinns. The Al-Malaa’ikah are made of light. They are not visible to us. Jinns are made of fire. They are also not visible to humans.

Jinns live in the world. There are good jinn and bad jinn just like human beings [Laughing]. One is called Lucifer or Iblis in Islam. It is the same thing. He was a Jinni made of a fire, not an angel. He lived among angels and was in the image of God before humans.

6. Jacobsen: If someone is Sufi Muslim, or if someone is Muslim generally, how would they perceive Jinn, Al-Malaa’ikah, orIblis influencing their daily lives?

Soharwardy: Jinn, we Muslim, based on the Holy Quran, believe in Jinn based on a whole chapter in the Holy Quran called Surah Jinn. It mentions in the Holy Quran that Satan, Lucifer, or Iblis was a Jinn. So, we believe these exist.

However, as with most stories in the Western world, or the Eastern world, we do not believe that those stories are wholly real; they are fiction. Islamic belief is a human, a righteous human being – not every human being, of course – is stronger than any Jinn.

That is why humans are higher in respect and honour in the sight of God than even of the angels.

7. Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Imam Soharwardy.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Founder, Islamic Supreme Council of Canada; Founder, Muslims Against Terrorism.

[2] Individual Publication Date: January 1, 2019: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/soharwardy; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Image Credit: Imam Syed Soharwardy.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Imam Soharwardy on Creationism, Evolution, and Islam [Online].November 2019; 19(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/soharwardy.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2019, January 1). An Interview with Imam Soharwardy on Creationism, Evolution, and Islam. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/soharwardy.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Imam Soharwardy on Creationism, Evolution, and Islam. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 19.A, November. 2019. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/soharwardy>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Imam Soharwardy on Creationism, Evolution, and Islam.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 19.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/soharwardy.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Imam Soharwardy on Creationism, Evolution, and Islam.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 19.A (January 2019). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/soharwardy.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2019, ‘An Interview with Imam Soharwardy on Creationism, Evolution, and Islam‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 19.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/soharwardy>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2019, ‘An Interview with Imam Soharwardy on Creationism, Evolution, and Islam‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 19.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/soharwardy.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Imam Soharwardy on Creationism, Evolution, and Islam.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 19.A (2018):January. 2019. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/soharwardy>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Imam Soharwardy on Creationism, Evolution, and Islam[Internet]. (2019, January; 19(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/soharwardy.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2019. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-12-27

Ask Dr. Robertson 2 — Psychotherapy

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee: Dr. Lloyd Hawkeye Robertson

Numbering: Issue 1: Inaugural Issue

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: Question Time

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: December 27, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,180

Keywords: aboriginal, Lloyd Hawkeye Robertson, Psychotherapy, Scott Douglas Jacobsen, The Voice Magazine.

Dr. Lloyd Hawkeye Robertson is a Registered Doctoral Psychologist with expertise in Counselling Psychology, Educational Psychology, and Human Resource Development. He earned qualifications in Social Work too.

His research interests include memes as applied to self-knowledge, the evolution of religion and spirituality, the Aboriginal self’s structure, residential school syndrome, prior learning recognition and assessment, and the treatment of attention deficit disorder and suicide ideation.

In addition, he works in anxiety and trauma, addictions, and psycho-educational assessment, and relationship, family, and group counseling. Here we talk about psychotherapy.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: In a previous interview in two parts for The Voice Magazine, we covered some material on a course taught during the time at Athabasca University for you, which is the largest online university in Canada. You brought forward some analysis of psychotherapy and prominent figures in it. What is psychotherapy?

Dr. Lloyd Hawkeye Robertson: As you mentioned, I touched on this in our last interview Scott. Psychotherapy is a process of effecting change in an individual who voluntarily enters a therapeutic relationship as a client or patient. The change is psychological in that it is intended to impact positively on the client’s cognitive and emotional functioning. The therapist acts as a facilitator of such change in keeping with the client’s goals. There is a consensus across the schools of psychotherapy that the therapeutic process is not advice giving. To give advice is to presume that the advice-giver knows the client better than the client does. To give advice is disempowering because, if the advice works, it leaves the client dependent on the advice-giver the next time there is a problem. Rather, the practice of psychotherapy involves the development of the individual to be a competent volitional actor with a sense of personal worth and constancy within a social milieu.

This definition, while sounding elegant, is not complete. Some schools of psychology are quite strict in proscribing advise giving. Others might allow advise giving where the client has an intact self and the focus of the intervention is problem-solving. In such cases, the therapist is not doing psychotherapy, but may be viewed as doing counselling. Still other schools conflate the terms psychotherapy and counselling. This latter view is not completely without theoretical merit as any change in behaviour that brings a feeling of success is likely to affect the psyche in some way.

Jacobsen: Following from the prior question, what did the major well-known figures, Freud and Jung, get wrong and right in their work?

Robertson: Both Freud and Jung drew attention to phylogenetic factors that contribute to the development of the psyche. By suggesting that archetypes are encoded, instinctive, preconfigured patterns of action, Jung was, in effect, taking a deterministic stance. Similarly, in Freud’s tripartite division the poor ego is left frantically balancing the instinctual drives of the id with the dictatorial culturally determined superego. Although I am not a determinist, I count the recognition of genetic and environmental constraints as an important contribution. I think Freud’s greatest contribution is that he popularized the idea that psychology is a science. Another of Freud’s contributions was that he brought the study of human sexuality out of the constraints imposed by Victorian morality by making it central to his theories. This is connected to something that Freud, in my opinion, got wrong and that is the notion of “penis envy.” As Alfred Adler noted in reply, if women were envious of men during the beginning of the twentieth century when this conversation occurred, it was more likely due to inequality in social relations than the fact that they are born without a penis.

Jung’s conceptualization of archetypes from which we create meaning has application to cultural and self studies, but he dabbled in mysticism and his notion that there exists a collective unconscious has bolstered the beliefs of some religionists. This can have dangerous consequences. For example, his speculations on the collective unconscious of the so-called “Aryan race” and the notion that they are somehow “rooted to the land” while the Jews are a “rootless people” played to the rise of Nazism. His comment that the psychology of Freud and Adler were okay for the Jews but his psychology is for the German “Volk” could be viewed as either religious or racial bigotry.

Jacobsen: Following from the first query once more, who were the figures of similar note as Freud and Jung but, unfortunately, not brought into the light of public consciousness as much as the aforementioned?

Robertson: I think Alfred Adler has not received sufficient recognition. For example, Abraham Maslow and Carl Rogers, leaders of Humanist Psychotherapy, failed to credit Adler as offering a precursor for some of their ideas such as self-actualization and client centred therapy. Adler included the former term in what he called “striving for perfection” and anticipated client centred therapy by declaring that the patient or client was expert in his or her self with psychotherapy defined as a collaboration between experts.

Adler also had a foot in the Behaviourist camp. His “homework assignments” were a method of shaping and reinforcing behaviour. But the classical behaviourist might have been put off by Adler’s support for the idea that mankind has consciousness and the power of choice. In this way Adler anticipated Cognitive-Behaviourism. The founder of Rational Emotive Behaviour Therapy, Albert Ellis, did credit Adler’s influence in the development of his school of practise. By suggesting to clients that they consider revising their worldviews, Adler was anticipating those modern psychotherapists who view humans as meaning makers.

Today we have a plethora of schools of psychological practice with the founders of each emphasizing some feature or technique that makes their school distinctive. I argued in https://www.hawkeyeassociates.ca/images/pdf/academic/Free_Will.pdf that these schools are united by a theory of human potentiality and that the project of psychotherapy is to teach people to reach the potential implied by that theory. I think Adler tapped into this vision of what it means to be human over a century ago and he addressed it holistically.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Dr. Robertson.​

Image Credit: Dr. Lloyd Hawkeye Robertson.

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License

In-Sight Publishing and Question Time by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com and https://medium.com/question-time

Copyright 

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time 2012-2020. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2018-12-22

Ask Gayleen 2 — Publishing Progressive Voices

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee: Gayleen Cornelius

Numbering: Issue 1: Inaugural Issue

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: Question Time

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: December 22, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 648

Keywords: Cornelius Press, Gayleen Cornelius, Scott Douglas Jacobsen, South Africa.

Gayleen Cornelius is a South African human rights activist from Willowmore; a tiny town in the Eastern Cape province. She grew up a coloured (the most ethnically diverse group in the world with Dutch, Khoisan, Griqua, Zulu, Xhosa Indian and East Asian ancestry). Despite being a large Demographic from Cape Town to Durban along the coast, the group is usually left out of the racial politics that plague the nation. She has spoken out against identity politics, racism, workplace harassment, religious bigotry and different forms of abuse. She is also passionate about emotional health and identifies as an empath/ humanist. Here we talk about Cornelius Press and progressive voices.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: In terms of the publication, and as should be noted upfront, Cornelius Press is the main publication. That is to say, you are my boss.

But you’re also a colleague and mentor in terms of knowing more about South Africa and its progressive movements and culture. What were some of the problems with the website and the hosts for those with an interest in searching for the publication but not able to find it?

Gayleen Cornelius: The Cornelius Press website was hosted by a huge German tech company in South Africa. We had more than one website hosted by the company but they restricted ads for some content which was considered not favourable for advertisers.

This had a serious implication on the website’s potential for revenue and as a result, we ended up indebted to the company with Cornelius Press being suspended.

Jacobsen: What are the next steps for it?

Cornelius: We have thought of changing to a more wallet-friendly hosting service but we are in a position to redeem Cornelius Press’ debt to our previous service. If all goes well, the news site will be live again in January.

Jacobsen: Who are some living prominent progressive voices for South Africa?

Cornelius: South Africa is arguably the most progressive country in Africa. The government alone has been implementing progressive policies since 1994 with same-sex marriage being legalized years before most first world countries caught up.

There hasn’t been much cause for activism on a broader scale except for the problem of racism. Most activists in South Africa today fight against racism and income inequality, our two biggest problems that the end of apartheid didn’t take with it.

Far left movements like the Economic Freedom Fighters and alt right activists like the Afriforum are in the mainstream of civil society. It is in these raging identity politics that the progress we South Africans take for granted is lost.

There is a need for progressive activists to make it in the mainstream and protect whatever liberties are under threat.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Gayleen.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen founded In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal and In-Sight Publishing. He authored/co-authored some e-books, free or low-cost. If you want to contact Scott: Scott.D.Jacobsen@Gmail.com

Image Credit: Gayleen Cornelius.

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In-Sight Publishing and Question Time by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com and https://medium.com/question-time

Copyright 

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time 2012-2020. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2018-12-22

An Interview with Professor Mahmood Amiry-Moghaddam

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: December 22, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,731

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Professor Mahmood Amiry-Moghaddam is a Professor at Universitetet i Oslo (UiO) and the Founder of ‎Iran Human Rights. He discusses: Iranian juvenile offenders are given the death penalty; religion as a political tool; countries telling women what they can and can’t wear; justifying the death penalty; advanced postsecondary training and neuroscientific research; problems in the brain; substantia nigra; and different cells having problems.

Keywords: Human Rights, Iran, Iran Human Rights, Mahmood Amiry-Moghaddam, neuroscience, professor.

An Interview with Professor Mahmood Amiry-Moghaddam: Professor, Universitetet i Oslo (UiO); Founder, ‎Iran Human Rights[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: With respect to some human rights issues in Iran, as you founded Iran Human Rights, there are particular issues to do with juvenile offenders who are given the death penalty. Why? How does this compare to the international context?

Professor Mahmood Amiry-Moghaddam: To answer the second question first, Iran has ratified several international conventions such as the Convention on the Rights of the Child, which clearly bans the death penalty for offenses committed under 18 years of age.

So, it is illegal. But they still do it. Why do they do it? I would say, in general, victims of the death penalty in Iran and, probably, in many other countries belong to the weakest groups of society.

I think that it is the same in Iran. These are normally children from marginalized groups because of poverty or other socioeconomic factors. Basically, they don’t have a voice. During the last 40 years, Iran has been among the countries issuing the death sentence for juveniles, and in the last 5 years Iran has been the only country implementing death sentences for juvenile offenders, in 2018, at least 6 juveniles have been executed by the Iranian authorities.

I think the first time this issue started getting serious attention was the after 2000, thanks to the internet and the emergence of new human rights groups. So, people started focusing on issues of juvenile execution.

I think, at the same time as we started, several other rights groups started focusing on juveniles on the death row. One was in Canada, Stop Child Executions – founded by Nazanin Afshin-Jam. This (the issue of juvenile executions) has been an important issue when it comes to Iran’s international partners or countries having a dialogue with Iran, e.g., the European Union.

The death penalty is not banned by international law but the execution of children is banned. It has been on the agenda. The Iranian authorities have been subjected to lots of pressure, international pressure. But they still keep doing it.

It is, I think, because they have different excuses for the use of the death penalty. I call it “excuses.” Because I think the death penalty is a political instrument, regardless of what the person sentenced to death has done, whether it is a normal crime or anything.

But the instrument is political. It is, in my view, what Iran uses to spread fear in the society. You remember when ISIS took over parts of Syria and Iraq? What most people remember were the scenes of the executions.

It is the most powerful instrument to spread terror and fear and keep the control of a country or of a people. Iranian authorities, since they don’t have popular support, depend on instruments like the death penalty.

Until recently, the majority of those executed were charged with drug offenses. There were years when we had 1 to 2 people executed each day for drug offenses, like 2015. Iran has executed several thousand in the last 7 or 8 years.

Again, because of increasing international pressure, they had to pass new legislation that restricts the use of the death penalty for drug offenses. When it comes to the death penalty, related to the juveniles – because they have allegedly committed murder, murder, according to Iranian law and what Iranian authorities say, is punishable by retribution in kind.

If the family of the murder victim wants retribution, which is the death penalty, then they do it. That way, they put away the execution responsibility on the shoulders of the plaintiffs. So, why does Iran continue juvenile executions?

Because they use the same excuse. Their excuse is that this is according to Islam or Sharia. We cannot change it. According to Sharia, a boy has a criminal responsibility when he is 15 and girl when she is 9.

They say, “We can’t change Sharia. That’s why we have to continue these punishments.” Because once they step back from Sharia, the next step would be to back off from many of the punishments, inhumane punishments, used in Iran which are based on Sharia.

It means they could be able to back off all those punishments. Most people are sentenced to death for murder charges. If they say that they can start using 18 years of age for criminal responsibility, it means that they can make, basically, any changes in their version of Sharia.

For them, it is a kind of red line. They have already been pushed by the international community to pass the legislation to limit the use of the death penalty for drug charges. They can’t execute political opponents as easily as they used to do in the 1980s because of the high political price. It would lead to international outrage. Now, the only thing left is for them to say, “We follow the religion.” Unfortunately, juvenile execution is also part of it. They are using the religion to keep on with the policy of the death penalty, which has nothing to do with the religion.

But it is a political tool. There are so many Muslim countries that do not practice the death penalty and as I mentioned, in the past few years Iran has been the only country in the world implementing the death penalty for juveniles.

On the other hand, the age limit to get a passport or a driving license in Iran is 18, like in other countries. The authorities do not regard a 15 years old boy mature enough to get a driver’s license. But when it comes to the death penalty the age of criminal responsibility becomes 15. So, the Iranian authorities can change the age of criminal responsibility to 18, but it requires much stronger and more long-lasting international pressure.

2. Jacobsen: So, you mentioned religion in its theocratic form used as a political tool, as a last-ditch political tool, for “justification” for the death penalty. However, this probably represents a disjunction between the general population and the religious leadership.

Is there a disjunction there? How much? Why?

Amiry-Moghaddam: Absolutely, first of all, ordinary people do not think the way the authorities do, even in murder cases. For example, for the past few years, we have been monitoring many of these retribution cases.

Since the law allows plaintiffs to either forgive or ask for retribution. There are a significant number of families who choose forgiveness. According to our statistics kept for a few years, the numbers of families who choose forgiveness over the death penalty via retribution is much higher.

That’s one thing. Iran probably has the biggest or the largest abolitionist movement in the Middle East, at least in the countries practicing the death penalty. One of the reasons is people see the authorities using the death penalty as a political tool.

The authorities’ way of using religion; the whole issue of political Islam arrived to Iran 40 years ago. Before that, it was only among a small group of the priests or the clergy. So, many people were not familiar with that.

Let’s say my grandfather or other people who were practicing Muslims, who were believers, they never shared the authorities’ idea of combining religion with politics the way they do it. So, I think that it is a paradox that Iran, which was probably the least religious country of the Middle East, has had an Islamic state over the last 40 years.

This is also one of the reasons why they have to use force to enforce the rules. For example, you have for the compulsory hijab. They have thousands of specific police forces to go around and make sure people are following the hijab rules.

You have probably seen the pictures. When ordinary people have the chance, they violate these rules. I would say Iranians do not share the authorities’ opinion. Not all, some have the same views. But I would say a larger group or, maybe, a majority do not share the authorities’ view on it, or on the tools used to continue their rule.

3. Jacobsen: As a caveat or an add-on to that [Laughing], we see some countries in the world with either an interest in telling women what they have to wear or [Laughing] what they can’t wear [Laughing].

Amiry-Moghaddam: Right, that’s the thing. It is when what you wear becomes the main issue. It is for all sides [Laughing]. The real issue is much different than what people wear. The clothing becomes a symbol of something.

People forget that it is just a symbol. For them, it becomes a real thing.

4. Jacobsen: Outside of juvenile cases and the death penalty as a political tool through religious excuses, fundamentalist religious excuses, what cases, either in history or at present, would the death penalty seem justifiable to you, as you know more about this than me?

Amiry-Moghaddam: To me, the death penalty is not justifiable in any cases. First of all, it is an inhumane punishment. I can come back to that. Another thing, there is no indication or there are no studies showing that it has a preemptive effect on crimes.

It’s not reversible. We have seen so many cases where many years later; they find the person was innocent. I think that the law is responsible for the values that we’re transferring to our children and society.

When the law says, “Violence is not good. Murder is not good,” they cannot have exceptions for themselves. Not talking about self-defense, the law says, “It (killing) is wrong,” but when they practice the death penalty that is what they are doing.

Basically, it means that there are exceptions to things that are our deepest values, “Killing is wrong; unless, I decide it.” It sends the wrong signal. There are so many negative sides to the death penalty. It outnumbers the possible benefits if any.

So, that’s why. For example, in Norway, where I live, you probably remember. There was this guy who first put a bomb in a government office. Then, he went to an island and started killing young people. He shot to death 69 people. Most of them were teenagers.

In some countries, he would probably have been executed. So, what happened to him? The Norwegian judicial system spent thousands of Norwegian Kroner to have a proper trial for him. He could choose his lawyer.

It took several months. He could appeal again. Finally, he was sentenced to a lifetime in prison. I think, let’s say, what this process did to the society was extremely important, also with regards to healing the wounds of those directly injured or those who lost loved ones, it says, “This man did not manage to change our values.”

The society showed it has much stronger values than what one man can do to them. Probably, there were some people who wanted to see him dead. A good thing about a society with rule of law is that the authorities do not put the responsibility of the decision on the shoulders of someone who is a victim of violence. They do not have to think about it.

They have their grief. That is more than enough responsibility. Imagine if, in addition to what they went through, they had also to decide if this person should live or die; eventually, it is for the benefit of anyone, including those directly affected by violence or crime.

I don’t say that we should not have punishments, but the punishments we have should not violate our deepest values, the respect for the right to life and that killing is wrong.

5. Jacobsen: To pivot into the other research work, you are highly trained. You have a Ph.D. and an M.D. You worked at Harvard Medical School. It comes from an interesting background as a refugee and then went to Norway, as a kid.

This leads to questions about interesting work and background, and the diverse set of education. Most people do not have that level of education. So, what is the main question you’re asking in the neuroscientific research?

Amiry-Moghaddam: Right now, we are working at what we call the neurodegenerative disorders such as Parkinson’s disease. Those diseases that affect the central nervous system. Mainly, as we get older, but these diseases can affect younger people as well.

We do not have any preemptive treatment. We don’t have any cure. The reason for that is we still do not know enough about how our brain works and what happens to the brain when these diseases occur.

If I simplify it, in Parkinson’s disease, a hallmark is a loss of a specific population of brain cells, neurons, at a specific part of the brain called substantia nigra. Nobody knows why exactly those cells start dying. By the time people are diagnosed, more than 60-70% of the cells are dead. We do not have a cure.

Despite several decades of research, we don’t know enough about it. The brain is fascinating enough as an organ. I find research on these diseases meaningful, because I know there are so many people who suffer because of those diseases.

That is what we are focusing on right now. But I think, as a scientist, we are very privileged because my job is to be curious and try to make new discoveries in one of our most complex organs. I really feel privileged for that.

6. Jacobsen: If you look at the substantia nigra, and if I remember right, it produces dopamine. So, in a way, this amounts to a dopamine depletion syndrome, Parkinson’s Disease. As with any evolved system, it will have flaws.

Anyone can look at the list of cognitive biases of the human mind to know how many are known just about the mind. We also know in other organs the failures which arise. We see this with diabetes. We see this with eyes. We see this with auditory disorders.

But people get mechanical devices to replace some of the function that is lost. Not to the same degree, but to some sufficient level for functionality in the world. I am thinking of people who take insulin, diabetics.

Others who need hearing aids. Others, such as you and I, who get glasses because our eyesight is bad in some way. Others that I remember or recall reading about, which were fascinating, and shoed a potential line, not necessarily solving but, of alleviating the problems for some people who have Parkinson’s.

Something akin to the pacemaker for the heart, a Parkinson’s pacemaker. Is this an area of newer research? Is it a hopeful area for research? Or is it, more or less, going off the rail? What is its status?

Amiry-Moghaddam: Yes, there are some, let’s say, more modern attempts to help people with Parkinson’s. First of all, let’s call it the dopamine pacemaker, we don’t have it. It wouldn’t stop or cure the disease.

Because, right now, the most efficient treatment, which has been helping many patients for many, many years is giving medication that increases the levels of released dopamine in the affected areas of the brain.

6. Jacobsen: That’s intriguing.

Amiry-Moghaddam: Yes, but it works as long as there are dopamine-producing neurons. When there are no more dopamine-producing neurons in the substantia nigra, this medication does not help so much. After that, people are trying. Things are still going on regarding the use of stem cells because the regeneration of new dopamine-generating neurons is something fascinating.

There are some trials. There is also deep brain stimulation. But in my field, it is much more basic. What I am trying to look at, why these specific neurons are vulnerable? Because there is something else interesting about Parkinson’s.

One finds a clear link with environmental toxins and Parkinson’s disease. That’s interesting. It means that these neurons are selectively vulnerable to toxins. What makes them vulnerable? Let’s say, my research goes much more back to basics. Why? What is the reason?

But, of course, we believe the knowledge about that would help us to find a cure or contribute to thinking differently about Parkinson’s disease. With all respects to all those who are at the same time trying to find a treatment, an efficient treatment with the current knowledge. I think both of them are necessary.

So, we haven’t been looking into how to increase the dopamine levels in the brain. We wonder why the dopaminergic neurons start dying. Specifically, the reasons for why they are vulnerable to particular toxins and why other neurons in the brain are not.

7. Jacobsen: When the substantia nigra begins to deteriorate, or to 60-70% fewer than the original number this may have cascade effects. If this is the case, what other systems deteriorate alongside it over time?

Amiry-Moghaddam: When the dopamine release falls below a certain level, the connections between the substantia nigra and other parts of the brain do not function as they should. These dopaminergic connections are among others important for modulation of our movements. That’s why some of the most apparent symptoms are related to our movements. The symptoms typically start at around 50-60 years of age, which is not old, but it gets worse with aging. There is also an increase in the prevalence of Parkinson’s disease as people get older.

Age is an important risk factor. As people get older, we see there is comorbidity between Parkinson’s disease and other kinds of dementia. That’s the reason. Parkinson’s, whether some people have several of the diseases at the same time. One of them starts first; we do not know much about it.

But there is comorbidity. At the very minimum, the higher the age, the more we see general dementia but also specific types like Alzheimer’s Disease.

There are also several common features among Parkinson’s, Alzheimer’s, even ALS.

You have an accumulation of specific kinds of protein, either inside or outside the cells, e.g. beta-amyloid in Alzheimer’s Disease. In Parkinson’s Disease, we have α-Synuclein. It gets too specialized for a general reader.

But other parts of the brain and other organs of the body are also affected. We still don’t know as much about that. As science develops or progresses, we find out more about how the disease affects other parts of the body, like the gut and other parts of the brain.

But the reason we haven’t been looking at it or focusing on it, previously, is that it is typical for us looking at the areas that give the stronger symptoms – or more characteristic symptoms. Because of the dopaminergic neuronal loss.

The Parkinson’s patients have a very specific way they walk. You have probably seen the way they walk. It is similar to other parts of the body. I would say that the more we dig into these diseases; we find that there is a lot more to find out and learn.

Another focus of my research. It is looking at the other cell types in the brain other than the neurons. It is called neurology or neuroscience because most of the focus or activity has been on the principal cells of the brain, the neurons. We want to see how the other cell types contribute to neurodegenerative diseases like Parkinson’s disease.

8. Jacobsen: So, for instance, compared to the glial cells or something like this?

Amiry-Moghaddam: Yes, especially the astrocytes, the star-like cells.

Jacobsen: Yes.

Amiry-Moghaddam: According to some studies, they are the most abundant cell type in the brain. I think they play a more important role than previously anticipated. I think one of the reasons we lag behind when it comes to finding treatments for neurological disorders – compared to other parts of the body – is that the focus has been too neurocentric.

My main focus is on astrocytes or much of my research is on astrocytes.

9. Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Professor Amiry-Moghaddam.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Professor, Universitetet i Oslo (UiO) Founder, ‎Iran Human Rights – سازمان حقوق بشر ایران‎.

[2] Individual Publication Date: December 22, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/amiry-moghaddam; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Professor Mahmood Amiry-Moghaddam [Online].December 2018; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/amiry-moghaddam.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, December 22). An Interview with Professor Mahmood Amiry-Moghaddam. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/amiry-moghaddam.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Professor Mahmood Amiry-Moghaddam. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, December. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/amiry-moghaddam>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Professor Mahmood Amiry-Moghaddam.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/amiry-moghaddam.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Professor Mahmood Amiry-Moghaddam.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (December 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/amiry-moghaddam.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Professor Mahmood Amiry-Moghaddam‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/amiry-moghaddam>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Professor Mahmood Amiry-Moghaddam‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/amiry-moghaddam.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Professor Mahmood Amiry-Moghaddam.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):December. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/amiry-moghaddam>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Professor Mahmood Amiry-Moghaddam [Internet]. (2018, December; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/amiry-moghaddam.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-12-22

Why I am an Atheist – Part 1

Author: Roslyn Mould

Numbering: Issue 1.A, Idea: Ghanaian Secular Leaders and Thought

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: Ghana’s 5%

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: December 22, 2018

Issue Publication Date: TBD

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,586

ISSN 2369-6885

Keywords: atheism, Catholicism, Ghana, God, Roslyn Mould.

Why I am an Atheist – Part 1[1],[2]

*Original publication in GhanaWeb.*

I became an unbeliever in 2007. It started with the idea of yearning for more knowledge on Christianity, specifically the Catholic religion I grew up with.

I was baptized in a Catholic Parish and attended Primary, JSS and SSS Catholic schools. My mother’s side of the family is largely Catholic and my father’s side, Anglican. I was a communicant by age 10 and got confirmed in the Holy Spirit while in SSS by 18 years. All my catechism and confirmation classes were my decision. Even at that young age, I wanted to believe in God!

I had doubts when my mum died when I was 4 but I couldn’t question and thought religion must be true since everyone I knew was religious. It was on my personal journey of research, and the will to empower myself with facts about my religion, that I gradually, and painfully, de-converted myself.

I mostly kept it to myself in the beginning, keeping some hope that I could be wrong and that there really is a God, any God. But no one was able to convince me otherwise.

I declared myself atheist when I attended my first meeting in 2012 with other atheists and agnostics living in Ghana. Hearing their stories and sharing information made me realize that I hadn’t even scratched the surface from my own research and barely knew anything regarding the amount of information and knowledge out there. I wasn’t alone or crazy – there are atheists in Ghana!

My first ever international humanist conference that year cemented my non-belief. Ghana wasn’t alone! There were atheists from Nigeria, Sierra Leone, and Liberia. I was in awe that we existed across the continent.

Since then, my confidence grew and I decided to come out to friends and family. Luckily I have an open-minded family and loyal friends. Though they don’t understand, I’m still loved, respected for my opinions and accepted, unlike some I met through the Humanist Association of Ghana and Freethought meetings. Others had been stigmatized, disowned by family and even declared witches!

Since coming out, a lot of questions have been thrown my way by friends and family of different religious faiths including Christians, Muslims, Eckists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc. Some of these questions have become frequently asked questions (FAQs) and I hope each part of my story will be able to explain why I am an atheist. It also helped me to understand why people are religious from the FAQs I was asked.

Some of the questions asked include:

1. How do you think we were created?

2. What makes you moral?

3. Why don’t you just believe in case you may be wrong?

4. Do you read your bible?

5. Most people all over the world believe in God. Do you think they are wrong and you know better?

6. Aren’t you afraid to go to hell?

Sometimes, these questions caught me off-guard or when I wasn’t in the mood for debating. Other times these questions made me realize how backward our educational system is, how uninterested and close-minded Africans are in seeking knowledge other than their beliefs, and how culture has played a big role in keeping us from questioning. I would often encourage them to find out the answers for themselves too; after all, a Google search can’t be that difficult in this day and age! But they wouldn’t, either out of laziness, lack of opportunity or simply disinterest and blissful ignorance.

Considering I was watching documentaries on educative channels on DSTV such as Discovery, History and National Geographic channels, I wish I could understand why people who could afford over $100 a month on satellite TV, would waste it on African movies and Mexican soap operas!

I blame this lack of curiosity on our educational system and less passionate science teachers who are also mostly under religious influence. It’s, for this reason, I felt I should start answering these FAQs for them, but please the reader, don’t take my word for it, research it.

So I’ll start by addressing the most common question.

1. How do you think we were created?

From time immemorial, humankind has asked and pondered this question. For me, it was the whole reason humankind needed religion before there was science to explain how things work.

Our planet, Earth, was formed about 4.54 billion years ago. The earliest life on Earth existed at least 3.5 billion years ago. Human beings, aka Homo sapiens, have only been in existence for 50,000 years (after 200,000 years of evolution).

Hordes of thinkers, from the early African civilizations, East Asians and Hellenistic philosophers, talked about creation. But it wasn’t until just over 100 years ago in 1859 that Charles Darwin first wrote his famous book “The Origin of the Species”. This gave us an alternative explanation for life forms which was entirely devoid of supernatural fingerprints. The success of this explanation legitimized and fostered the growth of religious skepticism which manifested in a series of public debates on the subject. It effectively shook the received explanation found in the scriptures and now forms the basis for evolutionary biology.

Since then, many scientists, including biologists, archaeologists, zoologists, biochemists, cosmologists, and physicists, have come a long way in answering questions about the origin of life contradicting ALL religious explanations. Yet the research goes on as there is still much to learn.

One such scientist is Stephen Hawking, writer of the best selling book, “A Brief History of Time” (1988) which attempts to explain a range of subjects in cosmology, including the Big Bang, black holes and light cones, to the non-specialist reader.

Hawking extended the singularity theorem concepts first explored in his doctoral thesis. This included not only the existence of singularities but also the theory that the universe might have started as a singularity.

Abiogenesis or biopoiesis is the natural process by which life arose from non-living matter such as simple organic compounds. Scientific hypotheses about the origins of life can be divided into three main stages; the geophysical, the chemical and the biological.

On the assumption that life originated spontaneously on Earth, the Miller–Urey experiment and similar experiments demonstrated that most amino acids, often called “the building blocks of life”, can be racemically synthesized in conditions which were intended to be similar to those of the early Earth.

Other approaches (“metabolism first” hypotheses) focus on understanding how catalysis in chemical systems in the early Earth might have provided the precursor molecules necessary for self-replication.

We know there were enough molecules in terms of structure and functionality that were able, under the appropriate conditions, to start life, most likely a single cell.

After the first forms of life started in our oceans it was millions of years later that they became more complex organisms which later became primitive ocean life. Some evolved and moved to land eventually evolving into animals and birds. So you see, it didn’t take 7 days for this to happen!

Such scientific research has been able to explain the formation of planets, galaxies and our cosmos as a whole. It has also given us answers to questions on life forms and our history. All this research is based on scores of evidence from recovered fossils, carbon dating, genetics, and many other scientific methods, NOT on faith or personal beliefs.

I am more enlightened now and look forward to more findings in my lifetime.

No more will I be ignorant of knowledge. No more will I be afraid to know more. This is one reason why I am an atheist.

Ros Lyn

Humanist Association of Ghana

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Council Member, Humanist Association of Ghana; Chair, African Working Group, International Humanist and Ethical Youth Organisation/Young Humanists International.

[2] Individual Publication Date: December 22, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mould-atheist.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Mould R. Why I am an Atheist – Part 1 [Online].December 2018; 1(B). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mould-atheist.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Mould, R. (2018, December 22). Why I am an Atheist – Part 1. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mould-atheist.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): MOULD, R. Why I am an Atheist – Part 1. Ghana’s 5%. 1.B, December. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mould-atheist>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Mould, Roslyn. 2018. “Why I am an Atheist – Part 1.” Ghana’s 5%. 1.B. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mould-atheist.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Mould, Roslyn “Why I am an Atheist – Part 1.” Ghana’s 5%. 1.B (December 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mould-atheist.

Harvard: Mould, R. 2018, ‘Why I am an Atheist – Part 1‘, Ghana’s 5%, vol. 1.B. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mould-atheist>.

Harvard, Australian: Mould, R. 2018, ‘Why I am an Atheist – Part 1‘, Ghana’s 5%, vol. 1.B., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mould-atheist.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Roslyn Mould. “Why I am an Atheist – Part 1.” Ghana’s 5% 1.B (2018):December. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mould-atheist>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Mould R. Why I am an Atheist – Part 1 [Internet]. (2018, December; 1(B). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mould-atheist.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and African Freethinker by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and African Freethinker 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and African Freethinker with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-12-15

An Interview with Rahma Rodaah

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: December 15, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,679

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Rahma Rodaah is the Self Published Author of Muhiima’s Quest. She discusses: life prior to the Somalian civil war; coming to Canada at age 8; the experience being the only black girl; enduring and recovering from bullying; the assumed responsibilities as the eldest in the family; the move to Edmonton in 2001; international business at the University of Ottawa; current position, and tasks and responsibilities; the reason for motto “where there is a will there is a way”; having a child; being a self-published author of children’s books and a Muslim; feedback on the books; and plans on a next book.

Keywords: author, Islam, Muhiima’s Quest, Muslim, Rahma Rodaah, Self-Published Author, writer.

An Interview with Rahma Rodaah: Self Published Author[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Being born in Somalia, what was life like prior to the civil war?

Rahma Rodaah: Life for us was very comfortable. My father worked in the Financial sector, but he often traveled so most time it was just my mother, my two siblings and my grandmother at home. I just remember spending my days outside and being surrounded with a large family. That’s the one thing we don’t have here in Canada, our extended family.

2. Jacobsen: You moved to Canada at the age of 8. How was building a life in Quebec and starting to learn French?

Rodaah: Our transition to life in Canada has not been an easy one. It took us a long time to get here, including a detour in the USA before we crossed the border. We left everything behind so it was initially very hard for my parents. The language barrier, getting used to a new surrounding and the climate were the biggest struggles we had to overcome.

3. Jacobsen: What was the experience of being the only black girl, the only Somali in the French classrooms?

Rodaah: It’s only recently that I have started uncovering memories of this period in my life. The bullying I endured in those years was very traumatic. There was even an incident where a teacher tied me to a chair because she thought I was too “disruptive” I was unable to speak the language, and I struggled immensely because of this.

Children pull down my pants; they would taunt me and tease me endlessly. They were most curious about my skin color and my hair which I had never seen as an issue before. It was, and my parents didn’t understand, or rather they had their own battles to overcome.

4. Jacobsen: How did you endure and recover from the bullying?

Rodaah: The bullying did not stop until we moved to Ottawa two years later. Ottawa offered more diversity due to more immigrants settling there, and for the first time, I was no longer the only black or Somali girl in class.

I was able to speak a little French, and I was able to make friends. After some time in a shelter for new immigrants we moved into a neighborhood were a lot of Somalis lived and therefore we found a sense of community, and it started to feel like home for the first time since we arrived.

5. Jacobsen: As the eldest in the family, how did this affect assumed responsibilities within the family?

Rodaah: I always thought of myself as the third parent. My father constantly worked to support us, and therefore my mother relied on me to help with my siblings as well as to help her overcome her inability to speak the language.

I also felt compelled to set an example for my younger siblings. A lot was riding on my education and my success. I was the first to graduate university in my household which for my parent meant their sacrifice and migration worth it.

6. Jacobsen: In 2001, why did you move to Edmonton?

Rodaah: You know at first we had no idea why our parents decided to move us from a place where we felt comfortable and had tons of friends. But years later my mother told us she decided to move to Alberta for better work opportunity for both our father and us.

Edmonton in early 2000 looked nothing like it does today in term of its diversity and number of Somali in its population. In fact, our family was one of the first Somali family to enroll in our French High school. But we quickly got used to it, and we now love being here.

7. Jacobsen: Why did you choose international business in university and to complete a degree at the University of Ottawa?

Rodaah: I actually enrolled in the program of International business with the University of Alberta, but after two years I realized it wasn’t the right program for me. I applied to many universities in Canada, but I decided to move back to Ottawa, and I received a degree in International Development and globalization from the University of Ottawa.

8. Jacobsen: What is your current position? What tasks and responsibilities come with the position?

Rodaah: I am currently working with the Government of Alberta where I work as an income support adviser. We help Albertans receive information and apply to funded programs such as Health benefit and funeral benefits.

9. Jacobsen: Why is your motto “where there is a will there is a way”?

Rodaah: I value hard work and determination. My parent’s journey and their will to get here has always fuel that belief in me. I knew that if I wanted it bad enough and I worked hard for it, anything would be attainable.

10. Jacobsen: How did having a child or becoming a mother influence personal perspective on time, life, and responsibilities in life?

Rodaah: Once I became a mother, I began to reflect more on the things I had gone through and overcome during my childhood. Both my husband and were plucked from our home country due to the Civil war. We had to leave so much behind and forge a new identity and life.

I noticed that my kids are still being asked where they are from even though they are the first generation born in Canada. They have not been or seen Somalia so as far as they are concerned Canada is the only country they know.

I also noticed that as a black Muslim my children would have to overcome these two marginalized identities. Things such as bullying and racism are still prevalent, and I want my kids to have enough confidence to defend themselves and enough knowledge to educate these ignorant views.

11. Jacobsen: As a self-published author of children’s books and a Muslim, what is your hope in portraying characters to the young through the books?

Rodaah: My goal is to showcase black Muslim in a positive light. These two identities are often time the most stereotyped, and it’s important for me to change that narrative.  Positive imagery can have a significant impact on children and its one of the biggest reason I choose to write children books.

I hope my books will enable children the opportunity to see themselves in books they also enjoy to read. I also want to show that as Black Muslim we also have stories to tell and often we go through the same things as others do.

12. Jacobsen: What has been the general feedback on them?

Rodaah: I have received an enormous amount of positive response. I have had a lot of none Muslim advise me they learn something about our culture and faith. So many kids have told me they were extremely delighted to see themselves in the characters.

Parents have commented that the message of inclusion and embracing our differences is an important one they have enjoyed discussing with their children.

13. Jacobsen: What is your next planned book?

Rodaah: I am currently working on two new pictures books, but I also plan on writing a chapter book for teen and early readers in the future. I just had my third child, however, and it is taking me longer to complete any work.

14. Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Rahma.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Author.

[2] Individual Publication Date: December 15, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/rodaah; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Rahma Rodaah [Online].December 2018; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/rodaah.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, December 15). An Interview with Rahma Rodaah. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/rodaah.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Rahma Rodaah. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, December. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/rodaah>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Rahma Rodaah.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/rodaah.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Rahma Rodaah.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (December 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/rodaah.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Rahma Rodaah‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/rodaah>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Rahma Rodaah‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/rodaah.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Rahma Rodaah.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):December. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/rodaah>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Rahma Rodaah [Internet]. (2018, December; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/rodaah.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2018-12-14

Ask Dr. Robertson 1 — Counselling and Psychology

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee: Dr. Lloyd Hawkeye Robertson

Numbering: Issue 1: Inaugural Issue

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: Question Time

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: December 14, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 742

Keywords: counselling, Lloyd Hawkeye Robertson, psychology.

Dr. Lloyd Hawkeye Robertson is a Registered Doctoral Psychologist with expertise in Counselling Psychology, Educational Psychology, and Human Resource Development. He earned qualifications in Social Work too.

His research interests include memes as applied to self-knowledge, the evolution of religion and spirituality, the Aboriginal self’s structure, residential school syndrome, prior learning recognition and assessment, and the treatment of attention deficit disorder and suicide ideation.

In addition, he works in anxiety and trauma, addictions, and psycho-educational assessment, and relationship, family, and group counseling. Here we talk about the psychotherapy, and standard terms and definitions.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: You have multiple degrees, undergraduate and graduate level. Most oriented within counseling and psychology. Let’s start: what is the basis of counseling and psychological work in the treatment of and counseling with individual clients/patients?

Dr. Lloyd Hawkeye Robertson: Psychotherapy is concerned with the process of change at the level of the individual. If the discomfort a client feels is due to external events, that individual must still choose to respond to those events in some way. An element of free will is thus built into the core practice of the discipline. There is much evidence to indicate that we are not born with free will and that it is never entirely unencumbered. I have argued our mission is, in effect, to teach clients to be self-actualizing according to a mental model of what it means to be human — a being who is both volitional and social with the capacity to have objective beliefs while exercising internal consistency of thought. I have also argued that this idealized self with qualities of uniqueness, constancy, and volitionality is a product of cultural evolution. My research suggests that this “modern” self is cross-cultural.

Jacobsen: What are the standard terms and definitions for readers, now and into the future, to bear in mind throughout the series?

Robertson: The terms “counseling” and “psychotherapy” are often used interchangeably; however the former can be applied to anyone who gives advice or “counsel.” “Psychotherapy” is a narrower term that refers to applied psychology, although it has also been appropriated by social workers and others who do not necessarily receive training specific to psychology. This term, at least within the field of psychology, does not generally refer to advice-giving but to self-change, that is, change to the self of the individual.

The Adlerians probably offer the cleanest distinction between the two terms. They begin by holding that neither mode involves advice giving. Therapy is what is done when a change to the structure of the self is required. Counseling assumes an intact self but that circumstances, such environmental or societal constraints, require the development of problem-solving and perception checking skills. In both modes of intervention, counseling and psychotherapy, Adlerians would refrain from giving advise but would invite the client to select a plan from a variety of co-constructed possibilities.

Another term that requires clarification is “theory.” Largely based on a misreading of Thomas Kuhn, psychology has misappropriated the term from the hard sciences, and what are called theories in psychology are really schools of practice. As Korhonen brilliantly argued in her dissertation research, these schools, along with the counseling of Inuit elders, and the practice of multicultural psychotherapy share the same basic assumptions as to the structure of the self, and these assumptions include the importance of individual choice, the understanding of client difference, and the importance of context. These assumptions constitute a unified theory of what it means to be human.

Image Credit: Dr. Lloyd Hawkeye Robertson.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and Question Time by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com and https://medium.com/question-time

Copyright 

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time 2012-2020. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2018-12-08

An Interview with Greg Vogel (Part One)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: December 8, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,627

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Greg Vogel is the Chairman of Mensa France. He discusses: family and personal background; influence on him; giftedness as a child; giftedness in primary and secondary school; and working as a community on gifted children.

Keywords: France, German, Greg Vogel, intelligence, IQ, Mensa France.

An Interview with Greg Vogel: Chairman, Mensa France (Part One)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: In terms of geography, culture, language, and religion/irreligion, what is family background? What is personal background?

Greg Vogel: I was born in Strasbourg (France), a city which was in German side during WW2. My grandparents were forcibly incorporated in the German army, so we have a specific culture “between France and Germany.”

All my grandparents and parents talked french and also German. About myself, I’m not as good as I would be in German. I think all members of my family were baptized, not me. My mother refused and tell that it would be me who will decide my religion. So still not baptized now [Smiles].

2. Jacobsen: How did the family background feed into early life for you? How were these an influence on you, either directly or indirectly?

Greg:  Well, to be honest, I was not the desired child. My mother thought she was a barren woman (hope this is the good expression). She was no more in a couple with my father when they “slept together.” My father did not want to have me, but my mother assumed myself.

So I’ve been raised at 80% by my mother; I lived with her and having her name. We were very poor. We have the equivalent of 7.50 Euro to buy food for a week for me, my mother, 2 dogs and the cat (the cat was necessary as we had mice in the flat). My mother usually said that the animals ate better than us [Laughing].

Our apartment did not have any shower, bathroom, heating, flush (we had a seal) and hot water. It was horribly cold in winter; I was sleeping dressed even with gloves sometimes. Once I brought a thermometer in my room it was -4° Celsius and, as it was too easy, I had a stepfather, who was violent.

About my father, he has some quality; but even after 38 years, he still does not know my birthdate and still does not know how to write my first name (I promise this is not a joke). Well, I could continue like that, but I prefer keep it for my future autobiography book [Laughing].

So, I think that all of this contributes to offering me a special vision of life, as I do have different references than most of the people. It helps me a lot now.

3. Jacobsen: When did giftedness become a fact of life for you, explicitly? Of course, you lived and live with it. When was the high general intelligence formally measured, acknowledged, and integrated into personal identity, and family and friends’ perception of you?

Greg:  I was 15-years-old. I was doing a woman’s homework at my father’s apartment, a friend of him was here too. She looked at my work and said: “It’s the handwriting of a very intelligent person.”

So, we talked a bit. My father talked about Mensa. But it was in 1995, so no internet and everything we have now with it. It’s only in 2006 that I joined the association. At this time, I was in the university, but it was a bit complicated with my classmates as usually when I was talking with them, most parts of they did not understand – or told me that I was wrong.

So I thought, “Well, 2 possibilities, I’m dumb, or they are dumb.” So, I contacted my local Mensa to pass the test. In my mind, I went to the test session to pass the test, not to make the test.

It was a very personal process, so no one knew that I was in Mensa. Little by little, I told my friends and my family. It did not change anything in our relations. I’m still watching soccer, wrestling, making sports, martial arts, playing video games, etc. So, my friends accepted this specificity. Just my father does not understand why I’m a national chairman if I’m not paid for it. Sigh.

4. Jacobsen: Did personal giftedness get nurtured throughout primary and secondary school? 

Greg:  No, lol.

Life was too tough at this time for my giftedness to be exploited. When I talked about my problems, people may think that I was lying, but whatever. If you have problems, you’re just a problem for the others that are not necessary to solve.

A problem that you can let down. It’s also a fact that you will more likely be rich people than poor people, and my teachers thought also like that when I was in college. It did not nurture my giftedness, but it helped me to understand more about life and people.

5. Jacobsen: Why should governments and communities invest in the gifted, identification and education? Where can communities and governments disserve the gifted – do them wrong? What are the consequences in either case?

Greg: Governments should do all they can for education, not even for gifted but for all. The more your people will be educated (not the same thing than cultured which is also very important), then the more people will accept differences (sexual, religion, “color”, giftedness, and so on), so the smart people will understand that gifted people can make great things for humanity.

He’s not a Mensa member, but Elon Musk is making, in a few years, what N.A.S.A. never did. He’s just proving that if you have the intelligence and the financial resources you can make great things. Hell, I want to travel in space before I die! So go Elon! [Smiles]

The smarter you are, the faster you can find a solution to your problems.

6. Jacobsen: How can families and friends help prevent gifted kids from a) acting arrogant and b) becoming social car crashes (with a) and b) being related, of course)?

Greg: Well, the same answer, you have to educate people. Maybe, I’m factually smarter than some of my friends, so what? Do I know everything? No. Do my friends know a lot of things that I don’t know? Yes.

Your kid is arrogant? OK, let him fill in your tax form or just let him explain to you what is love. 😉

Life is not only about intelligence, but it’s also about relations that you will have with your family, your friends, your love(s), and your children. Making experiences of traveling, working, having children, enjoying life is not necessarily something in correlation with intelligence.

Thinking because you can answer well at some IQ tests makes you Superman is the best way to have it all wrong. IQ is like the body: you have to use it well to make great things and it’s not because you have facilities that you will be always on top; it’s all about work.

You have to make understand at your kids that being smart and/or strong is a gift, but a gift that you should train as much as possible. If you stay all your life alone without talking to anyone and making nothing of your day, it’s useless to have high IQ.

And whoever you are and whatever you’ve done, there always be someone who will do better than you. But if you’re kids is a real genius and that he’s done everything well so send him at Elon Musk and tell him to build a spaceship and some people on Earth really want to travel in space [Laughing].

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Chairman, Mensa France.

[2] Individual Publication Date: December 8, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/vogel-one; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Greg Vogel (Part One) [Online].December 2018; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/vogel-one.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, December 8). An Interview with Greg Vogel (Part One). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/vogel-one.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Greg Vogel (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, December. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/vogel-one>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Greg Vogel (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/vogel-one.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Greg Vogel (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (December 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/vogel-one.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Greg Vogel (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/vogel-one>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Greg Vogel (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/vogel-one.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Greg Vogel (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):December. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/vogel-one>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Greg Vogel (Part One) [Internet]. (2018, December; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/vogel-one.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-12-02

Ask Kavin 1 — The Demarcation Problem in Food

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee: Kavin Senapathy

Numbering: Issue 1: Inaugural Issue

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: Question Time

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: December 2, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 852

Keywords: Demarcation Problem, Kavin Senapathy, science.

Kavin Senapathy is a writer covering science, health, medicine, parenting, and the intersection of these topics. Her work appears in Slate, SELF Magazine, Forbes, Skeptical Inquirer, SciMoms, and other outlets. She’s a proud “Science Mom” to a 7-year-old and 5-year-old.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What is the difference between science and pseudoscience as applied to food?

Kavin Senapathy: Pseudoscience can be a powerful weapon in the hands of those who know how to exploit it, primarily because it can sound so credible (and because the demarcation between pseudoscience and science isn’t as black and white as some would like to believe). That’s especially true for food, and unfortunately, it’s not always as clear-cut as separating “science” from “pseudoscience.”

Take, for example, the concept of “clean” eating. It doesn’t really mean a whole lot — the FDA only talks about “clean” with regard to sanitation and food safety, and neither the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics nor the Dietary Guidelines for Americans define “clean” eating. Clean food proponents define it broadly as avoiding any synthetic or artificial food additives, and yes, their claims about such additives are rife with pseudoscience and misrepresentations of science. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that people who avoid common clean eating “nonos” (I’m not kidding, major food companies like Panera have “no no lists”) are fundamentally misguided. It turns out that these concepts are often more about values than science. Several nebulous food concepts, like “clean” and “GMO”, have become proxies for perceived and real ills of the food system. Depending on an individual’s values and circumstances, these can raise a wide range of issues, including corporate control of the food system, perceived or real rises in the incidence of disease, environmental concerns, fear of harmful chemicals, the well-being of our children, health disparities, and a lot more — all of which are concerns that I share. So, instead of demarcating “science” vs. “pseudoscience,” I’ve come to realize that the most important step we can take is to really define our concerns so that we can truly address them rather than blame dietary scapegoats. For one example, I wrote about the social consequences of the GMO debate with the other SciMoms here.

Jacobsen: What are the common fads and myths about diet and health?

Senapathy: This could and has filled entire books! Common myths include that “non-GMO” means better for the environment, health, or farm and factory workers, or that it really tells you anything about your food other than breeding method. One diet and health fad that I think will become an actionable reality in the coming years is the microbiome — we know that the trillions of microorganisms that inhabit our bodies and digestive tracts can make or break good health, and the growing science on how very integral this microscopic universe is to our everyday lives shows no signs of slowing. But for the time being, claims about products that can harness the power of the microbiome for better health are premature.

Jacobsen: How can the public better inform themselves, and the policymakers create public education campaigns, in order to better combat the ongoing and predictable waves of pseudoscience in health and diet?

Senapathy: The proposed solutions to pseudoscience susceptibility are complex, but one of the biggest missing pieces is that far too many people don’t know the basics of evaluating the credibility of information on the internet, which is where these waves proliferate fastest. I’m also a firm believer that the media’s breakneck pace in the internet age is a problem. An example that comes to mind is the recent, widely-covered study concluding that layers of the body that exist between connective tissue and organs are actually a newly discovered “organ,” called the interstitium, described as “a highway of moving fluid.” Several news outlets breathlessly reported that the discovery of this “organ” could explain how acupuncture works because one of the study authors said so. Turns out that this study doesn’t explain acupuncture at all, and that this specific author has long promoted pseudoscientific ideas about health. I covered the whole thing for Slate back in April.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Kavin.

Image Credit: Kavin Senapathy/Patricia LaPointe.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and Question Time by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com and https://medium.com/question-time

Copyright 

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time 2012-2020. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2018-12-01

An Interview with Blair T. Longley (Part Three)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: December 1, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,116

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Blair T. Longley is the Party Leader for the Marijuana Party of Canada. He discusses: regressive policies in the nation’s history regarding marijuana; responsibilities with public exposure; and those deserving more exposure.

Keywords: Blair T. Longley, Canadian Society, Cannabis, Marijuana Party of Canada.

An Interview with Blair T. Longley: Party Leader, Marijuana Party of Canada (Part Three)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What have been the most regressive policies in provincial, territorial, and national history from your perspective for the legalization and regulation of marijuana?

Blair T. Longley: The total criminalization of the cultivation of cannabis, which took effect in Canada in 1938, wiped out the hemp industries which could have grown hemp for food and fiber. We are living inside of Wonderland Matrix Bizarro Worlds, where everything has become as absurdly backward as possible, due to society actually being controlled by enforced frauds. Everything regarding the history of how hemp became marijuana, and thus, cannabis became completely criminalized, is but one of the tiny tips of an immense iceberg of integrated systems of legalized lies backed by legalized violence, which almost totally dominate Globalized Neolithic Civilization. The ruling classes, the pyramidion people in those entrenched social pyramid systems, are becoming increasingly psychotic psychopaths, while most of the people they rule over are matching that by becoming increasingly impotent political idiots. People who do not know anything but what their schools and the mass media tell them know nothing but bullshit, which they have been brainwashed to believe in their whole lives. They may be told relative truths about trivial facts, but otherwise they are massively LIED TO BY OMISSION regarding the most important facts, as well as generally misinformed about everything, in proportion to how important those things are. Again, the ways in which the schools and mass media, operated by professional hypocrites, have presented grossly disproportional and irrational risk analysis regarding the exaggerated harms and dangers of marijuana, simply symbolized the ways in which the vast majority of people were brainwashed to believe in bullshit, in ways which have become more and more scientific brainwashing, as manifested within the context of an oxymoronic scientific dictatorship, which has primarily applied progress in science and technology in order to get better at enforcing frauds, while adamantly refusing to become more genuinely scientific about itself.

The biggest bullies’ bullshit world views have been built into the basic structure of the dominate natural languages and philosophy of science, such that almost everyone thinks and communicates in ways which are absurdly backwards, and moreover, are tending to actually become exponentially more absurdly backwards, as the progress in physical science and technology continue to be applied through sociopolitical systems based upon being able to enforce frauds, which are thereby becoming exponentially more fraudulent. Since the most socially successful people living within systems based upon enforcing frauds are the best available professional hypocrites, there are no practically possible ways to prevent that from continuing to get worse, faster… Although the laws of nature are never going to stop working, and therefore, nothing that depends upon the laws of nature is going to stop working, natural selection pressures have driven the development of artificial selection systems to become based on the maximum possible dishonesties, which are not getting better in any publicly significant ways, but rather, are actually becoming exponentially more dishonest. Globalized Neolithic Civilization is headed towards series of psychotic breakdowns, a tiny component of which is the psychotic breakdown of pot prohibition.

2. Jacobsen: You have moderate exposure in the media. What responsibilities come with this public recognition?

Longley: The public opinions regarding the Marijuana Party tend to be similar to the rest of the systems of public opinions, which are based upon generation after generation being brainwashed to believe in the biggest bullies’ bullshit world views by their schools and mass media. The general public opinions of the Marijuana Party could hardly be lowered by anything that I could possibly do. In my view, the vast majority of Canadians, literally more than 99%, always behave like incompetent political idiots, (while the fraction of 1% that are the pyramidion people in those social pyramid systems are more competently malicious.) Inside that context, I tend to not want to volunteer to be a performing clown, who can be drafted into the narratives which are presented by the mass media. Meanwhile, I regard those people who have been made become more relatively famous by their greater mass media coverage publicity as being mainstream morons and reactionary revolutionaries.

While I may still somewhat entertain vain fantasies that I should promote more radical truths, including more radical hemp truths, from any overall objective point of view society has become too terminally sick and insane to recover from the degree to which that has become the case. One tiny manifestation of that are those ways that the “legalization” is currently indicated to become based on compromises with the same old huge lies, while more radical hemp truths are not expected to be able to change that. Therefore, “legalizing” marijuana now looks like it is headed toward becoming ridiculously restrictive regulations, which will actually amount to “Pot Prohibition 2.0” based on “Reefer Madness 2.0.”

3. Jacobsen: Who are activists, authors, bloggers, writers, and so on, that influence you, and deserve greater exposure?

Longley: I am not aware of any particular sources which I would unreservedly recommend. My opinions are due to sifting through vast amounts of information, such that what I have distilled is nothing like anything which was similar to what was originally presented in those sources. In my view, it is politically impossible for any publicly significant opposition to not be controlled. I am not aware of any “alternatives” that are more than “alternative bullshit.” The best one gets is relatively superficial analyses, which are correct on those levels, but which then tend to collapse back to the same old-fashioned bogus “solutions” based upon impossible ideals. It is barely possible to exaggerate the degree to which almost everyone takes for granted the DUALITIES of false fundamental dichotomies, and the related impossible ideals. I am not aware of any publicly significant “opposition” that is not controlled by the ways that they continue to almost completely take for granted thinking in those ways. (Of course, that includes the publicly significant groups that the mass media have most recognized as those who have campaigned to “legalize” marijuana.)

Ideally, we should go through series of intellectual scientific revolutions and profound paradigm shifts. Primarily that means we should attempt to better understand how human beings and civilization live as manifestations of general energy systems, and therefore, we should attempt to use more UNITARY MECHANISMS to better understand how human beings and civilization actually live as entropic pumps of environmental energy flows. However, I am not aware of anyone who is publicly significant that sufficiently does that, especially because going through such series of profound paradigms becomes like going through level after level of more radical truths, which amounts to going through the fringe, then the fringe of the fringe, and then the fringe of the fringe of the fringe, etc. … I present what I call the Radical Marijuana positions as being those Fringe Cubed positions, which are based upon attempting to recognize the degree to which almost everyone currently almost totally takes for granted thinking and communicating through the uses of the dominate natural languages and philosophical presumptions, which became dominate due to those being the bullshit which was backed up by bullies for generation after generation, for thousands of years.

Not only has civilization been based on thousands of years of being able to back up lies with violence, while progress in physical science has enabled those systems to become exponentially bigger and BIGGER, but also, those few who superficially recognize that then still tend to recommend bogus “solutions” which continue to be absurdly backwards, because they do not engage in deeper analysis regarding how and why natural selection pressures drove the development of artificial selection systems to become most socially successful by becoming the most deceitful and treacherous that those could possibly become. Since those are the facts, everything that matters most is becoming worse, faster … Within that context, the bogus “legalization” of marijuana, based upon recycled huge lies, is too little, too late, and too trivial to matter much. Rather, what is happening is that the Grand Canyon Chasms between physical science and political science are becoming wider and WIDER!

Human beings and civilization have developed in ways whereby they deliberately deny and misunderstand themselves living as entropic pumps of environmental energy flows in the most absurdly backward ways possible, while yet, almost everyone continues to take that for granted, which includes the degree to which the central core of triumphant organized crime, namely, banker dominated governments, are surrounded by layers of controlled “opposition” groups, which stay within the same bullshit-based frame of reference. There is almost no genuine opposition, but rather, the only publicly significant “opposition” is controlled by the ways that they continue to think and communicate using the dominate natural languages and philosophy of science, without being critical of those. Of course, that characterizes the controlled “opposition” groups, which have been campaigning to “legalize” marijuana. As those campaigns have become more mainstream, those campaigns have become less radical, and therefore, have tended to even more be able and willing to compromise with the same old recycled huge lies. Therefore, in general, one is watching the “legalization” of marijuana turn into a mockery of itself, whereby what is actually happening is becoming more and more absurdly backwards to what was originally being promoted by those who long ago were campaigning to try to “legalize” on the basis of promoting more radical hemp truths. Instead, “legalized” marijuana is being more and more forced back to fit inside the established monetary and taxation systems, which are almost totally based upon public governments enforcing frauds by private banks. The current news trends indicate that “legalized” marijuana is only happening INSIDE the systems that criminalized cannabis in the first place. Hence, overall, the campaigns to “legalize” marijuana are more and more being betrayed, such that what is most probably going to actually happen are sets of ridiculously restrictive regulations. (Of course, we will have to wait and watch to see what finally happens in those regards during the next couple of years. However, there are no good grounds to be genuinely optimistic about that at the present time.)

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Party Leader, Marijuana Party of Canada.

[2] Individual Publication Date: December 1, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/longley-three; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Blair T. Longley (Part Three) [Online].December 2018; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/longley-three.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, December 1). An Interview with Blair T. Longley (Part Three). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/longley-three.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Blair T. Longley (Part Three). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, December. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/longley-three>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Blair T. Longley (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/longley-three.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Blair T. Longley (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (December 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/longley-three.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Blair T. Longley (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/longley-three>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Blair T. Longley (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/longley-three.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Blair T. Longley (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):December. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/longley-three>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Blair T. Longley (Part Three) [Internet]. (2018, December; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/longley-three.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2018-11-22

An Interview with Blair T. Longley (Part Two)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: November 22, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,437

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Blair T. Longley is the Party Leader for the Marijuana Party of Canada. He discusses: being the leader of the Marijuana Party of Canada; derivative policies; the advancement of society; important individuals; and the research on marijuana.

Keywords: Blair T. Longley, Canadian Society, Cannabis, Marijuana Party of Canada.

An Interview with Blair T. Longley: Party Leader, Marijuana Party of Canada (Part Two)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: You are the Leader of the Marijuana Party of Canada. What is the primary policy of the Marijuana Party of Canada?

Blair T. Longley: The Marijuana Party was primarily founded as a single issue party, based upon the related aspects of “legalizing marijuana.” The only founding policy beyond those related to “marijuana legalization” was to change the voting system, such that there would be better representation achieved than the existing first-past-the-post electoral systems, which tends to wipe out smaller parties, while possibly giving total power to the dominant minority.

Of course, I have always, without making any effort to do so, been riding along with the waves of events that were happening during the historical times and places where I happened to exist. Hence, it is consistent with my continuing to surf the waves of change that the current Liberal Party Canadian government is currently working upon both those issues, of “legalizing marijuana” and “electoral reform.”

2. Jacobsen: What derivative policies, which have details and acts as sub-clauses to the primary policy, follow from the primary policy?

Longley: That depends upon to what degree one is able and willing to accept and integrate the more radical hemp truths, that hemp is the single best plant on the planet for people, for food, fiber, fun, and medicine. Neolithic Civilization has always been based upon being able to enforce frauds. Within that overall context, marijuana laws are the single simplest symbol, and most extreme particular example, of the general pattern of social facts: only a civilization which was completely crazy, and corrupt to the core, could have criminalized cannabis.

3. Jacobsen: Do cults, ideologies, and religions restrict the advancement of society to greater technological, socio-cultural, and spiritual levels?

Longley: That is quite the hyper-complicated question! One of the first sociologists, Emile Durkheim, explained some of the various ways that paradigm shifts are achieved, which have been restated by many others, such as represented in these quotes from Gandhi & Schopenhauer: “First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.” & “Every truth passes through three stages before it is recognized: In the first it is ridiculed, in the second it is opposed, in the third it is regarded as self-evident.”

Those patterns were documented happening over and over again by Thomas Kuhn in his book The Structure of Scientific Revolutions. Similarly, there is a famous quote from John Stuart Mill regarding how: “Yet it is as evident in itself as any amount of argument can make it, that ages are no more infallible than individuals; every age having held many opinions which subsequent ages have deemed not only false but absurd; and it as certain that many opinions, now general, will be rejected by future ages, as it is many, once general, are rejected by the present.”

Within that context, Globalized Neolithic Civilization is running out of enough time to be able to change enough to adapt. The facts are that sociopolitical systems based upon being able to enforce frauds are becoming exponentially more fraudulent, while there appears to be nothing else which is happening which is remotely close to being in the same order of magnitude of changes to be able to adapt to that happening, because Globalized Neolithic Civilization is the manifestation of the excessive successfulness of being controlled by applications of the methods of organized crime through the political processes, in ways which overall are manifesting as runaway criminal insanities. That society appears to have become too sick and insane to be able to recover from how serious that has become. Marijuana laws illustrated the ways that the repetitions of huge lies, backed by lots of violence, controlled civilization, despite that doing so never stopped those lies from being fundamentally false. Everything that Globalized Neolithic Civilization is doing is based upon the history of social pyramid systems of power, whereby some people controlled other people through being able to back up lies with violence. The history of successful warfare was the history of organized crime on larger and larger scales. Being able to back up deceits with destruction gradually morphed to become the history of successful finance based upon public governments enforcing frauds by private banks. It was within that overall context that it was possible for a whole host of other sorts of legalized lies to become backed by legalized violence, which included the example of criminalizing cannabis.

4. Jacobsen: Who are important individuals in the party of the aim of the legalization of marijuana apart from you – or general statements about the membership at large?

Longley: A registered political party can not exist without individual members. Each and every individual who agrees to become a registered member is vital to the overall existence of the party. After having 250+ members, during general elections, the party has to have 1 officially nominated candidate for election. The Marijuana Party operates in totally decentralized ways. Our candidates are practically in the same situation as independent candidates. Our electoral district associations are as autonomous as the elections laws allow them to be.

5. Jacobsen: What does the research state about the benefits and harms of marijuana – by any means of intake such as smoked, ingested, and so on?

Longley: The overall answer continues to be the same as the Royal Commission reported in 1972, that marijuana is the safest of drugs. The history of pot prohibition was always based upon huge lies, which grossly exaggerated the harmfulness of marijuana, which set of lies may be referred to as “Reefer Madness.” In my opinion, smoking marijuana is the worst way to consume cannabis. My view is that smoking should only be done ritually and ceremonially. Due to the history of the criminalization of cannabis, cannabis culture became similar to a slave society, within which context many people became proud of the relatively stupid social habits that they developed during those decades of prohibition. Cannabis should be food, first and foremost. Vapourization is a superior alternative to smoking.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Party Leader, Marijuana Party of Canada.

[2] Individual Publication Date: November 22, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/longley-two; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Blair T. Longley (Part Two) [Online].November 2018; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/longley-two.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, November 22). An Interview with Blair T. Longley (Part Two). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/longley-two.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Blair T. Longley (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, November. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/longley-two>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Blair T. Longley (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/longley-two.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Blair T. Longley (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (November 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/longley-two.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Blair T. Longley (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/longley-two>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Blair T. Longley (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/longley-two.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Blair T. Longley (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):November. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/longley-two>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Blair T. Longley (Part Two) [Internet]. (2018, November; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/longley-two.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2018-11-22

On the Ongoing Campaign Witch-Hunt Against Homosexuals in Tanzania

Author: Isakwisa Amanyisye Lucas Mwakalonge

Numbering: Issue 1.B, Idea: African Freethinking

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: African Freethinker

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: November 22, 2018

Issue Publication Date: TBD

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,477

ISSN 2369-6885

Keywords: Dar es Salaam, homosexuals, Isakwisa Amanyisye Lucas Mwakalonge, Tanzania.

On the Ongoing Campaign Witch-Hunt Against Homosexuals in Tanzania[1],[2]

It is more than a month now since late days of October 2018 that there has been a hot debate about Homosexuals in Tanzania. This saga has come out as a result of a press conference held by the current Dar es Salaam city Regional Commissioner who told residents and the Nation that he has launched a ‘war against Homosexuals’ in Dar es Salaam, his area of administration. He urged all “good citizens” of Tanzania to join him in this ‘war’. He further insisted to Tanzanians that he is doing so because Homosexuality is “against God’s directives”. Article 61(1)(2) and (5) of the Constitution of the United Republic of Tanzania, of 1977 describes a Regional Commissioner as a leader both in the Region assigned to lead, and in the Government of the United Republic of Tanzania, as someone who is appointed by the President to supervise the discharge of all duties and functions of the government of the United Republic of Tanzania in the Region assigned to him or her.

The campaign started by asking good citizens to cooperate with him by giving him information on where those suspects who practice Homosexuality lives, house number, streets, or where they do work, or a place of their business or mention anybody whom they suspect as a Homosexual, and  such information to the Regional Commissioner can be channeled to him through various means like calling him directly through his mobile phone, short messages, WhatsApp, or going direct to him to give that crucial information and other secret ways of communications or going to the police stations in Dar es Salaam and give  information  to Police officers about Homosexuals. The Regional Commissioner said his aim is to make sure that he finishes the problem of having Homosexuals in Dar es Salaam because according to him this is a sin to God, and it is against African traditions, and furthermore he wants to save the next generation from this menace. One among of his strategy is to go directly to those suspects to their places, even at their homes and collect them and deal with them. Apart from hunting them house to house, his other strategy is to call them direct to report to Police stations for further procedures such as being interrogated by both Police officers and sometimes by the Regional Commissioner himself on why do those people practice homosexuality. Further plan of such campaign was to include even medical experts like Doctors whom will be required to undertake some medical tests to the suspects of homosexuality so as to establish expert evidence which may be used in the future in case needed, or perhaps to be used in courts just in case or doubtless such medical tests will help to prove whether the suspect is a real Homosexual or not.

In Tanzania homosexuality is an offense, such offense is categorized as unnatural offenses or offenses against morality.  In the Penal Code Cap 16 Revised edition of 2010 which is an Act to establish a code of criminal law in Tanzania from section 154,155,157 the law prohibits the practices of homosexuality, in case a suspect is found guilty of the offense by the court then the punishment is between 30 years to life imprisonment. Furthermore, the Law of Marriage Act Cap 29 under section 9(1) does provide a definition of marriage as the voluntary union of the man and a woman intended to last for their joint lives but the law does not recognize the same-sex marriages or sexual affairs of persons of the same sex. However, the Constitution of the United Republic of Tanzania of 1977 in its generality does recognize and protect the rights and liberty of human beings including protection of the minority groups, from article 12 up to article 16 is about protection of human dignity. For instance, in article 12(1) and (2) the constitution stipulates the rights to equality of human beings as follows: “All human beings are born free and are all equal, and every person does deserve respect for his dignity and recognition. While article 13(1) provides that’’ All persons are equal before the law and are entitled, without any discrimination, to protection and equality before the law. Article 13(4) states that “No person shall be discriminated against by any person or any authority acting under any law or in the discharge of the functions or business of any state office. Article 14 provides that “Every person has the right to live and to the protection of his life by the society in accordance with the law”. Article 15(1) provides that “every person has the right to freedom and to live as a free person”. Article 16(1) provides that “Every person is entitled to respect and protection of his person, the privacy of his own person, his family and of his matrimonial life and respect and protection of his residence and private communication.”  In Tanzania constitution is the supreme Law.

Similar rights are also provided in the African Charter On Human and Peoples Rights (1981) which is a Regional Human Rights Instrument set to make sure that member states like Tanzania do recognize as well as observe Human Rights. For instance, under article 2 the charter states that every individual is entitled to enjoy rights and freedoms that are guaranteed in the African charter despite their differences of sex, race, color, religion, ethnicity, language, nationality or social origin. Article 3(1) and (2) provides that every individual does deserve to be treated equally before the law and get equal protection before the law. Article 4 provides that every human being deserve to be respected for his life and his integrity and no one should arbitrarily get deprived of this right. Article 5 provides that all human beings deserve the right to get respected for his dignity. Article 6 states that every person has the right to liberty and security of his person, and no one should be deprived this right unless proper legal procedures are adhered, hence no person may be arbitrary arrested or be detained. Similar emphasis has been provided in the International Covenant On Civil and Political Rights (1966) this international human rights instrument to provide the protection of civil and political rights of human beings. For example, under article 9(1) the covenant provides that everyone has the right to liberty and security, and no one should be deprived of these rights unless legal procedures adhere. Article 17(1) among other things the article provides that no one should unlawfully interfere with his privacy. Article 26 states that all human beings are equal before the law and deserve without any discrimination to get equal protection of the law. Therefore everyone following up with the issue of homosexuality in Tanzania must also get acquainted with these legal terrains.

And so, following this heavy campaign by Dar es Salaam Regional Commissioner, the Ministry of foreign affairs   issued an official statement almost a week after to the press stating that what the Regional commissioner is doing is his personal opinions and not the opinion of the Government, and later on Minister of home affairs also issued an official statement stating what the Regional commissioner is doing, it is his own opinion and not the position of the Government of Tanzania. The Minister of home affairs further urged that Homosexuals are protected by the constitution of the united republic of Tanzania, therefore, no person should be harassed just because of being a Homosexual, additionally, the Minister of Home affairs told Police officers not to be used in that campaign of witch-hunting Homosexuals. In the Parliament, at mid-November 2018 session a discussion on the state of homosexuality emerged following this saga, but it ended unclearly. In Tanzania due to article 55(1) and article 54(3) of the constitution of the United Republic of Tanzania of 1977 all Ministers are appointed by the President and their duties and functions are to assist and advise the President in exercising his powers.

Meanwhile, Human Rights Activists in Tanzania have – here and there -given their views, defending the rights including those of Homosexuals adding it is right time now to review laws which discriminate Homosexuals since those laws are outdated. While those opposing homosexuality activities in Tanzanian – mainly Christians, and Muslims claims that such practice is contrary to the teachings of their Holy books. There are those who oppose homosexuality in defense of African cultures, saying it is against African lifestyle.

While it can be presumed that probably it is a high time now to make a review of some laws in Tanzania (going to the extent of having a new constitution altogether?) so as to weigh them if they are still valid at this contemporary world of the 21st century because some of these laws were brought up in Tanzania during British colonial times. However, the reality is that majority of Tanzanians do not tolerate mostly gays and then next fewer lesbians in general and it is a threat that can be a danger if one is known to “practice” such activities in Tanzania. A person suspected or caught doing so faces ostracism at the family level and permanent discrimination by the society at large, as the majority of Tanzanians believes that gays and lesbianism is a ‘western culture’ brought to Africa to destroy good African culture, while Christians and Muslims consider it as an abhorrent, abomination sin. More so for Tanzanian political culture, it is a political dice with danger on the one hand – while being populism on another, for a Politician to seem either support or oppose homosexuality.

The irony is that the law against homosexuality itself was introduced from the very west, during its Victorian age when they conquered Africa and ruled it. More so the very Holy books Africans use today as “yardsticks” against homosexuality also came from, were brought by the very west  – the bible and Arabs (for the case of Koran) and are thus really not part of indigenous African tradition and culture, despite the reality that they have succeeded to superimpose and dominate the latter.

Also, it should be known that Tanzania has, since day one of its independence signed United Nations charters, and later even African charters…it is high time for the general public to know what is the content of those treaties that the leaders had signed on their behalf.

This Matter brings forth such questions as what really is an “African culture”, is it monolithic? what is “Western culture” and what is “modern culture” and what is a “Human culture”? what agenda is for “Human rights” and what are not? what are aspects of African culture that are not supposed to change, is homosexuality biological or habit acquired?

It is a sensitive topic Tanzanians are debating hotly this “triple heritage” dialectic. There is confusion that protecting rights of Homosexuals might be seen as encouraging homosexuality itself and that, anyone doing it ends up being judged as a homosexual or lesbian him / her self by association. Also, there is confusion as between what is “western” versus what is “modern” that goes all along even in terms of human rights. How secular in practice is Tanzania where religion mind is dominant?  Were there homosexuals in African cultures before penal codes were introduced by colonialism in Tanzania? and how were they treated in their societies vis – a – vis their respective “life rights” then, and in the eyes of the now…? is African culture homophobic because it is patriarchal? Does that explain somehow why lesbians are to a less extent informally tolerated (woman to themselves) while gays are not (how can a man be turned a woman?) as for the code against anal sex style between a man and a woman even if married, how can the Regional Commissioner practically enforce that? Surveillance device to each bedroom of adult / married Tanzanian? Should the government prescribe the acceptable “normal” sex position (which one?) as the only legitimate one as far as God/Religion morality goes? Can Zamadamu (Swahili for evolution theory) help explain if same-sex attraction is biological or habit-acquired?  Is there a need for Tanzania to come out with a bill of rights that clearly set areas where it’s no business for the government of the day to encroach on someone’s lifestyle based on his/her self-determination in this drama of life? Can Tanzania learn from other African countries and commonwealth countries grappling with a similar situation? What does the African charter on African bill of rights say on that?

Well as one old song by Johnny Nash (who also popularized Bob Marley’s “stir it up” before Bob was a super-star) goes “There are more questions than answers”, findings would be needed to get rational answers, empirically – arrived. Thank you.

Lucas is a Teacher, Historian, Lawyer, and an Advocate of the High Court in Tanzania.
Email- isamwaka01@gmail.com. +255754326296

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Teacher, Historian, Lawyer, and an Advocate of the High Court in Tanzania.

[2] Individual Publication Date: November 22, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/tanzania.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Mwakalonge I. On the Ongoing Campaign Witch-Hunt Against Homosexuals in Tanzania [Online].November 2018; 1(B). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/tanzania.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Mwakalonge, I. (2018, November 22). On the Ongoing Campaign Witch-Hunt Against Homosexuals in Tanzania. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/tanzania.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): MWAKALONGE, I. On the Ongoing Campaign Witch-Hunt Against Homosexuals in Tanzania.  African Freethinker. 1.B, November. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/tanzania>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Mwakalonge, Isakwisa. 2018. “On the Ongoing Campaign Witch-Hunt Against Homosexuals in Tanzania.” African Freethinker. 1.B. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/tanzania.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Mwakalonge, Isakwisa “On the Ongoing Campaign Witch-Hunt Against Homosexuals in Tanzania.” African Freethinker. 1.B (November 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/tanzania.

Harvard: Mwakalonge, I. 2018, ‘On the Ongoing Campaign Witch-Hunt Against Homosexuals in Tanzania’, African Freethinker, vol. 1.B. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/tanzania>.

Harvard, Australian: Mwakalonge, I. 2018, ‘On the Ongoing Campaign Witch-Hunt Against Homosexuals in Tanzania‘, African Freethinker, vol. 1.B., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/tanzania.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Isakwisa Amanyisye Lucas Mwakalonge. “On the Ongoing Campaign Witch-Hunt Against Homosexuals in Tanzania.” African Freethinker 1.B (2018):November. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/tanzania>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Mwakalonge I. On the Ongoing Campaign Witch-Hunt Against Homosexuals in Tanzania [Internet]. (2018, November; 1(B). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/tanzania.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and African Freethinker by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and African Freethinker 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and African Freethinker with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-11-15

An Interview with Blair T. Longley (Part One)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: November 15, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,749

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Blair T. Longley is the Party Leader for the Marijuana Party of Canada. He discusses: background; influence on development; and early involvements in activism and politics prior to the Marijuana Party of Canada.

Keywords: Blair T. Longley, Canadian Society, Cannabis, Marijuana Party of Canada.

An Interview with Blair T. Longley: Party Leader, Marijuana Party of Canada (Part One)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: In terms of culture, family, geography, language, and religion/irreligion, what is your background?
Blair T. Longley: I was born on the barbaric fringe of the British Empire, i.e., Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada, in 1950. I grew up in Dollarton, North Vancouver. In retrospect, it was sort of “frozen in history” when I was young. The natives had been genocidally wiped out by viral diseases, and then relegated to small reservations, many miles away from Dollarton. The area was only beginning to be developed when I was young. There were many miles of beaches and forests that I could explore around my home, where there were almost no other people. Those areas are developed now, such that it is no longer possible for me to go back “home.”
The community I grew up in was almost totally White Anglo Saxon Protestant (there were a few Catholics.) Up until the year 1971, when I was 21 years old, Dollarton had a clause in its property titles which explicitly stated that those properties could not be sold to anyone who was not Caucasian. Therefore, the elementary and high schools that I went to had zero “diversity,” as people would now think of that kind of multiculturalism. I grew up in a family that may be referred to as “third generation atheists,” inasmuch as for three generations nobody in my family had believed in any of the established religious dogmas.When I went through the academic and technical educations of the British Columbian schools systems I was taught to respect rational evidence of facts and logical arguments. In high school, I did best in science courses. Therefore, my primary ways of thinking were based on mathematical physics. My first philosophy was statistical materialism.

2. Jacobsen: How did this influence development?

Longley: When one pursues the prodigious progress made in mathematical physics, one learns about the history of scientific revolutions, whereby there were series of intellectual revolutions, and profound paradigms shifts. Those trends that follow from attempting to more seriously consider what mathematical physics is telling us about the “real” world. One finds that those more and more re-converge with ancient mysticism.  I have spent several decades pursuing those convergences between mathematical physics and mysticism, with particular emphasis upon attempting to reconcile physical science with political science.

3. Jacobsen: What were your early involvements in activism and politics prior to the Marijuana Party of Canada?

Longley: My first participation in registered political activities was going to the founding convention of the Green Party of Canada in Ottawa, in 1983. In 1984, I became a Green Party candidate in the General Federal Elections, in order to help the Green Party become a registered party under the Canada Elections Act. At that time, my main concern was the nuclear arms race between the USA and the USSR, which became quite insane during the 1980s, and reached its most insane point in 1986.

(Of course, now, that situation after getting somewhat better for a while, has now become worse than it has ever been before.) Back at that time, the Green Party was tending to become more mainstream, and therefore, my kinds of radical politics were not approved of by the more mainstream members of the Green Party. That ended up with my also being endorsed as a Rhinoceros Party candidate on the last day of the nomination period, which made national news, due to my becoming a Green Rhino.

During the 1984 General Federal Elections, one of the most important turning points in my life took place when I attended an election expenses seminar given by Elections Canada official, where the political contribution tax credit was explained. I realized the awesome potential of that tax credit, and spent the next few decades attempting to realize that potential. I became a registered agent of the Rhinoceros Party, which enabled me to work on using the tax credit, as political experiments that enabled me to build the factual basis for a court case against the government of Canada regarding the uses of political contribution funds.

From 1982 to 1987, I was publicly cultivating cannabis plants in university family housing gardens, first on SFU’s campus, and then on UBC’s campus. During 1986 I engaged in substantial correspondence with Prime Minister Brian Mulroney, and some of his other ministers, regarding the criminalization of cannabis. In 1987 I was growing several dozen marijuana plants in the center of the family housing garden, in order to gain standing to challenge the constitutional validity of the marijuana laws.

However, when I went to court, the RCMP witness, crown prosecutor, and judge, conspired to make deliberate errors in laws, so that they could summarily acquit me, and therefore, not have to bother to look at the evidence nor listen to the legal arguments that I had prepared for that case. In other words, that court case ended in a completely goofy way. Since then, it has been repeated, over and over again, that Canadian courts were too corrupt to engage in a proper Charter of Rights examination of the original purpose and subsequent effects of the laws that criminalized cannabis.

After my own efforts had resulted in clearly demonstrating that was going to be the case, I stopped doing any more activism on that topic, but rather, devoted all my time and energy, from 1988 to 2000, in working on my court case against the Canadian governments regarding the political contribution tax credit. After I finally won that case, by proving that the government had been arrogantly dishonest about the legal used of that tax credit, in 2000, I attempted to interest all the other registered political parties in adopting my ideas.

NONE of the other registered parties were willing to adopt my ideas regarding the possible uses of that tax credit, EXCEPT the newly registered Marijuana Party. Therefore, the reason that I became associated with the Marijuana Party is that it was the ONLY registered party that was willing to attempt to realize the full potential of the political contribution tax credit.

In 2004, the Canada Elections Laws were changed in ways which deliberately decimated the Marijuana Party. After the Marijuana Party had been effectively destroyed by those changes in the Elections Laws, I became Party Leader, because there was nobody else who was willing and able to do so at that time. I primarily did so in order to continue to work on the political contribution tax credit potential, by finding ways to work around the changes in the Elections Laws which summarily criminalized most of what the Marijuana Party had been successfully doing from 2000 to 2003.

(That is what I continue to do now through authorizing autonomous Marijuana Party Electoral District Associations.)  Becoming Party Leader enabled me to have another court case against the Canadian government regarding Elections Laws that made votes for big parties be worth about $2 per vote, per year, for the big political parties, while votes were worth nothing to smaller political parties. We originally won at trial, however, we lost under appeal in 2008, which effectively made sure that the Marijuana Party could not compete with the bigger political parties.

The big parties actually made money from participating in General Federal Elections, while the smaller parties went broke by attempting to do so. The Elections Laws are set up in every possible way to favour the big parties, while screwing the smaller parties. However, since the big parties also appoint the judges, the typical patterns are for the courts to uphold as constitutionally valid the laws regarding the funding of the political processes which accumulate to result in Canada NOT being a “free and democratic society,” but rather, being a runaway fascist plutocracy juggernaut. Overall, Canada is deteriorating from colonialism towards neofeudalism, while the vicious spirals of the funding of all facets of the political processes are the main factors driving that to happen…

4. Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Mr. Longley.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Party Leader, Marijuana Party of Canada.

[2] Individual Publication Date: November 15, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/longley-one; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Blair T. Longley (Part One) [Online].November 2018; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/longley-one.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, November 15). An Interview with Blair T. Longley (Part One). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/longley-one.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Blair T. Longley (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, November. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/longley-one>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Blair T. Longley (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/longley-one.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Blair T. Longley (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (November 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/longley-one.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Blair T. Longley (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/longley-one>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Blair T. Longley (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/longley-one.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Blair T. Longley (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):November. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/longley-one>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Blair T. Longley (Part One) [Internet]. (2018, November; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/longley-one.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-11-15

An Interview with Aynsley Pescitelli M.A., B.A. (First Class Hons.)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: November 15, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,457

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Aynsley Pescitelli M.A., B.A. (First Class Hons.) is a doctoral candidate with some research into cyberbullying, transphobia, and homophobia. She discusses: cyberbullying; prevalence data; and transphobia and homophobia.

Keywords: Aynsley Pescitelli, cyberbullying, homophobia, transphobia.

An Interview with Aynsley Pescitelli M.A., B.A. (First Class Hons.)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: You work on cyberbullying. What defines it? 

Aynsley Pescitelli M.A., B.A.: My interest in the topic has always been on the groups that are understudied or have not previously been given a voice in the research literature.  Both postsecondary students and LGBTQ+ persons fit into this research gap; the bulk of the work in this area continues to focus on elementary, middle, and high school populations, and students are examined in large-scale quantitative studies that either do not include LGBTQ+ students or include them as an afterthought or comparison point for non-LGBTQ+ individuals.

I was interested in adding rich, detailed, individual-level data about the experiences of LGBTQ+ postsecondary students to this area of research to examine how their experiences compared to younger samples and the existing limited information about postsecondary populations to hopefully start to fill that glaring gap in the literature.

2. Jacobsen: What ranges of prevalence exist throughout the world based on the best data available

Pescitelli: This is a tough question.  In terms of the LGBTQ+ experience specifically (and more explicitly in the postsecondary arena), there really is not enough research to provide a clear answer to this question.  There just has not been enough of a focus on LGBTQ+ students specifically, so incidence rates are either absent or tough to quantify due to missing data and problems with operationalization in large-scale datasets.

In terms of my own work I cannot really speak to this, since my study was a small-scale qualitative one and one of the criteria for inclusion was that participants had experienced cybervictimization.  So, everyone in my sample had been cyberbullied in one form or another since starting college or university.

In terms of the general postsecondary population, as Chantal mentioned at the book launch, the rates vary greatly from study to study based on definitions employed and other study characteristics (e.g. who was sampled, what the research questions were, time of victimization (lifetime vs within a specified time), etc).

Even within the book, the rates vary greatly from chapter to chapter (ranging from 12.5% in the Chilean sample to over 50% in the chapter from France; other authors found rates somewhere in between).  It certainly appears to be an issue that continues beyond secondary school, regardless of location, but the degree of cyberbullying varies quite a bit throughout the world (at least in terms of the studies conducted to date).

3. Jacobsen: What defines transphobia and homophobia? Why focus on these topics within the research on cyberbullying, as this seems niche subject matter?

Pescitelli: The definitions I employed in my study were as follows:

Homophobia is often referred to as a “fear or hatred or homosexuality and gays and lesbians in general” (Pickett, 2009, p. 93).  It is also often used to explain orientation-based discrimination experienced by bisexual, pansexual, and questioning individuals (Blackburn, 2012; Conoley, 2008; Weiss, 2003).

While homosexuality and bisexuality relate to sexual orientation, transgender relates to gender roles and identities (Nagoshi et al., 2008).  Transgender is likely often subsumed under the wider LGB category because it has only been distinguished from homosexuality within the past century (Pickett, 2009; Weiss, 2003).  Transphobia is described as “fear and/or emotional disgust towards individuals who do not conform to society’s gender expectations” (Watjen & Mitchell, 2013, p. 135).

I think it is important to focus on populations that are understudied or have not previously been afforded research attention.  I would not personally describe it as a niche, but I can understand it appears as such.   The research that does exist points to LGBTQ+ individuals experiencing higher than average rates of both in-person and cyberbullying in postsecondary settings.

So that was what initially drew me to the research area; while this group may be a small one (depending on the institution or location), existing research at all levels of education indicated that this group experienced higher rates of online victimization when compared to their non-LGBTQ+ peers.

So, I wondered why, despite the persistence of this finding, there continued to be such a dearth of research in the area.  Most of the studies that included LGBTQ+ students did so in what felt like an ad hoc fashion (e.g. they noticed there was a difference in experiences, but the sample of students within that group was too small for them to unpack those differences), where the difference was acknowledged but not expanded upon.

Or it was used as a simple comparison point among a large sample of students but, again, not really explained or properly unpacked.  This led me to wonder what similarities and differences existed, and to want to focus an in-depth study on this under-researched group so that I could perhaps start to expand on some of the earlier findings that had little explanatory value

While I was not able to comment on overall incidence rates due to my small sample with a qualitative focus, I was able to learn a lot about the individuals I interviewed and their recent and historical experiences with homophobia and/or transphobia in online settings.  They had all experienced cyberbullying of this nature at very high rates and in various locations.

This was not a new experience to any of them; while they continued to experience online bullying frequently, they also had experienced such victimization prior to starting their postsecondary studies.  As I mentioned when we chatted in person, the forms of cyberbullying (e.g. modes of perpetration, location of bullying) did not seem to differ a great deal from non-LGBTQ+ individuals studied in related research, but there were some differences in the focus of the bullying, the perceived or known motives for the bullying, and some of the ways the bullying was experienced.

So certainly, many similarities, but some unique factors that lead me to believe that a one-size-fits-all approach to combating cyberbullying might not work to eliminate all instances of online homophobia and transphobia.  So, I think more research needs to be conducted with various groups (including members of the LBGTQ+ community) to determine if there are specialized needs or differences in the ways they experience online victimization if such actions are ever to be fully addressed.

4. Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Aynsley.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Ph.D. Candidate, Criminology, Simon Fraser University.

[2] Individual Publication Date: November 15, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/pescitelli; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Aynsley Pescitelli M.A., B.A. (First Class Hons.) [Online].November 2018; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/pescitelli.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, November 15). An Interview with Aynsley Pescitelli M.A., B.A. (First Class Hons.). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/pescitelli.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Aynsley Pescitelli M.A., B.A. (First Class Hons.). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, November. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/pescitelli>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Aynsley Pescitelli M.A., B.A. (First Class Hons.).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/pescitelli.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Aynsley Pescitelli M.A., B.A. (First Class Hons.).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (November 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/pescitelli.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Aynsley Pescitelli M.A., B.A. (First Class Hons.)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/pescitelli>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Aynsley Pescitelli M.A., B.A. (First Class Hons.)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/pescitelli.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Aynsley Pescitelli M.A., B.A. (First Class Hons.).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):November. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/pescitelli>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Aynsley Pescitelli M.A., B.A. (First Class Hons.) [Internet]. (2018, November; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/pescitelli.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-11-10

Ask Shireen 1 — Reformers

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee: Shireen Qudosi

Numbering: Issue 1: Inaugural Issue

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: Question Time

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: November 10, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,613

Keywords: Islam, Muslim, Shireen Qudosi.

Shireen Qudosi was named one of the top 10 Muslim reformers in North America in 2011. She works to further the progressive movement within Islam. Qudosi earned a B.A. in English and a B.A. in Political Science from University of California, Irvine.

She attended California Western School of Law, but left to build a foundation for her work as a Muslim Reformer. Here we start this educational series off on reformers.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Based on freedom of (and from) religion and the fact of modern extremism, two paths emerged as solutions for fundamentalist extremism: one for individuals who want to leave Islam and another for persons who want to reform Islam. Muslim Reformers is the second path.

How did you found it?

Shireen Qudosi: The path for reformers isn’t new. From the birth of Islam’s presence on the world stage, through today, Islam has always been progressing, regressing, shaping and evolving to suit the needs of the community. We see it in the way Islam waxed and waned during Prophet Muhammad’s time, starting out as peaceful and later emerging as a more warring religion when early Muslims were at risk of annihilation. We saw it in the first hundred years after the prophet’s death, as Muslims tried to flesh out the faith, as the faith adapted to local regions and branched into niche interpretations of Islam. And of course, there has been a consistent involvement of scholars (now imams and celebrity community activists) who try to shape Islam based on reasoning or propaganda depending on the character of the individual. For better or worse, Islam is not a static faith. It is better understood if it’s seen as an organism, or an evolving consciousness.

Muslim reformers are simply the newest wave of thought leaders. In one way or another, it was an inevitable rising, especially for women, especially today as we realize how brutally some of us have been silenced and groomed by voodoo.

I say voodoo because what else do you call an outer influence that paralyzes the true self from acting authentically. Generations upon generations have been possessed by cultural rot that has survived for so long only because it leeches onto an idea that enjoys a form of immortality….religion. Who would so many have been, who could we be now, if we were no longer possessed and free to know ourselves and what is possible still for humankind.

Privately, we are many voices. Publicly, you only see a few handfuls. All of us carry a rich heritage of philosophy and inquiry, and I can’t think of a greater act of faith than to ensure that right is exercised and that legacy is protected for future generations.

Jacobsen: Why found it?

Qudosi: I would recommend we set aside the idea that the reform movement was necessarily founded in one fixed point in space and time, but rather that it is part of a continuum.

Why someone does this work varies from person to person, their reasoning often colored by their personal experience or ambitions.

For me, I’d say I’ve been very sensitive to an injustice since as far back as I can remember. Most of my formative memories from when I was as young as four have been some kind of pain I’ve witnessed or experienced from what in hindsight I would call small cruelties. That soon became a layered experience, having lived in three continents and cultures by the time I was 7.

When I was four-years-old, I used to listen to the story of A Little Match Girl, over and over again, pulled into the narrative and empathizing with her before I could even read properly, before I even knew what empathy was, and before I realized that it’s perhaps not so ‘normal’ to feel another’s pain so intimately.

As you grow into yourself, become more self-aware and confident, that sense of purpose only deepens. For me as a reformer, that sense of purpose has grown over 15 years from what was initially a very naive and presumptuous mission to change a religion…to a love for human potential and a future for mankind rooted in dignity.

That’s essentially why I do what I do. Muslim reform for me started with a question, a possibility. Over time I’ve learned so much and I’ve gotten to know so many incredible people and their stories, that it’s not something I can just put down and walk away from at this point. In some way or another, this will always be a touchstone in the work I do. How much I’m able to do will always depend on the resources and funding available.

Jacobsen: How do modern media and communications technology play into this?

Qudosi: Technology has been a game changer. A Shireen from the past would have been crushed instantly, killed or otherwise silenced. Technology gives us the ability to get our message across, to connect with each other, to keep educating ourselves so we’re more refined in our message. However, technology dependency is crippling and dances on the perimeter of dehumanization.

Media, however, is an entirely other matter. You have to be a sort of gladiator if you want to be successful in media — and that’s not necessarily to anyone’s benefit, including the gladiator.

Media has become a sausage factory, a slush pile of soundbites and opinion where conversation and dialogue are simply not possible. That’s not where I want to be, personally.

Media has become polarized and geared toward ideological camps. Even simple one-on-one interview segments today are dumbed down to canned audience responses and other forms sensationalism. There’s currently no television media space for the meaningful engagement we witnessed in say a 1977 interview with Patrick McGoohan.

That’s not to say those types of conversations aren’t happening at all. They are. They’re happening on podcasts, in workshops, in books, essays, articles, in small gatherings, salon dinners, private presentations, and often make it to radio too. But they’re not getting the kind of amplification they need and deserve, and that’s because of one main reason: these conversations are slow-cooked, they take time to come together. When we’re in a time period of instant gratification, where things are flashy and loud, there’s no space for real conversation.

As a dear friend recently shared, this sort of coming together involves the kindling of a rapport, which he described as “creating a connection in and through our communication…People who are in good rapport with each other start to breathe, talk, and move in the same rhythm.”

I was recently reading John O’Donohue’s Beauty, in which he spoke of timing and patience — two things I confess I’m still a bit wobbly in at times.

In his section on “Towards a Reverence of Approach, ” he writes:

“What you encounter, or recognize or discover depends to a large degree on the quality of your approach. Many of the ancient cultures practiced careful rituals of approach. An encounter of depth and spirit was preceded by careful preparation and often involved a carefully phased journey of approach. Attention, respect and worthiness belonged to the event of nearing and disclosure…Our culture [now] has little respect for privacy; we no longer recognize the sacred zone around each person. We feel like we have a right to blunder unannounced into any area we wish. Because we have lost reverence of approach, we should not be too surprised at the lack of quality and beauty in our experience…We have become more interested in ‘connection’ rather than communion.”

There is no space for reverence of communion in a gladiator pit — just the fight.

Personally, there is so much I want to write on and I cannot do that if I’m tied to a 24/7 news cycle, a 24/7 connectivity, feeding the disease of opinion where everyone needs to have one (often before they’ve even had a decent amount time to process an event).

One of the things I did early this year was disconnect from social media (and most people entirely), to embrace a sort of sabbatical where I could rediscover my voice, and process so much of what I had experienced recently. I was able to pour into reading, thinking and writing toward long-term projects in a way that just isn’t possible day-to-day.

Because of my work I cannot disconnect completely but I do still shelter myself as much as possible from these things and hope to more so in the years to come. One simply cannot think and create if they’re fed a steady supply of other people’s thoughts.

And that’s where the media doesn’t help. The media feeds vanity, and it is possessed by it’s own gluttony to glamorize, sensationalize, hype, punish or push certain narratives and the propagandists who drive them.

Let’s look at reformers in the this context. 9/11 happened almost twenty years ago. How many reformers has the media highlighted since then? Every year there’s a stream of grievance fetish programs over that day, over every attack since, but not one meaningful push for any reformer…bred of the faith to challenge the faith from within in a way that no kinetic war can ever achieve. The ultimate ideological nuke.

The few outlets that have welcomed reformers as it suits them, often do so for their own confirmation bias, sometimes playing into the myth of the noble savage. There are exceptions to this, but far too few and so far all among the small privately driven platforms.

Jacobsen: As a woman, we see the rise of the advancement and empowerment of women not only in international rights documents starting with the modern movement of the universalization or democratization of rights as human rights in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights circa December 10, 1948, but also in the coming to fruition of the plans for implementation of women’s rights with moderate actualization of them now.

How can modern media advance and empower the rights of Muslim women with an interest in reform of the extremist and fundamentalist elements of the faith community?

Qudosi: Stop caricaturizing us.

Linda Sarsour, for example, is seen as some kind of champion when an alarmingly high percentage of her comments about Islam show she’s largely uneducated in Islam. Liberal media loves that she’s aggressive, without looking at how her persona damages our community in two ways. First, by mainstreaming her views which creates a more rigid hegemony within Islam — which is actually completely counter to our faith. Second, by generating more non-Muslim hate toward the rest of us. There’s a percentage of the population that will look at her and think “Well if that’s a Muslim, I hate Muslims.”

By showing only one type of Muslim and giving them wreckless amounts of airtime, the media ensures that only one Muslim narrative exists in the public consciousness — the hyper-aggressive Islamist narrative.

Here’s another example, Ilhan Omar who just won a congressional seat. Something like over a hundred articles have been written about her but how many of them have been honest about her hardline anti-Semitic rhetoric that sounds an awful lot like rhetoric that comes from the caves of Kandahar. We can’t nationally mourn a horrific attack on a synagogue and then celebrate someone who doesn’t sound that different from those who would attack.

Look, it’s not just about how Islam is covered. It’s about how both sides of the political aisle view women. Aggression is rewarded, and that is quite literally the opposite of the feminine. What makes women exceptional isn’t how hard we can pump our fist in the air while scowling, or bobble-heading some argument into a camera. What makes us exceptional is our gifts of creation, connectivity — healing gifts this world definitely needs.

And there is rage, a powerful component of the female psyche — but rage is a process. It is not the solution.

The other thing the media can do is lose the trope of sad Muslim woman. This has been going on before reformer was even a buzz word. Around mid-2000’s, I pieced together a totally rubbish book (if we can even call it a book), with uninformed, uncultivated hodgepodge of ideas about faith, identity and belonging.

It should have been thrown into the trash. Instead, David Bold and Associates over in the UK picked it up and miraculously got the manuscript into a bidding war between three publishers. There was one condition. They wanted me to write more about being a sad Muslim woman.

I refused for two reasons. First, I had just finished reading someone’s book that was little more than a sad Muslim woman story. I didn’t want to create anything so self-indulgent in one’s own perceived misery, which is exactly what it was. Nothing so terrible happened to her to have hundreds of pages of narrative about how terrible she had it, considering the fate of so many women elsewhere. Secondly, because I was still in my early twenties. I was at the threshold of understanding what it meant to be a woman, let alone a Muslim, and I had no business writing about any of it yet.

I wasn’t ready until 2015. Now, I have at least 3 different works I’m piecing together and shopping agents/publishers for.

Jacobsen: Who are some reformers to keep an eye out for now — women in particular?

Qudosi: We’re looking forward to bringing some new names on. Elliot Friedland and I co-founded Toke for Tolerance, a radically honest interfaith festival we hope to launch in 2019. Our vision includes using this space to nurture newer voices, both men and women, in a sacred space that honors the art of approach.

Jacobsen: What books make a good case for reform, especially in the implementation of women’s rights?

Qudosi: If we can adjust how we understand Islam, women’s rights within Islam will follow suit. I’m hesitant to lead with just a women’s rights platform because it again pushes the myth of sad oppressed Muslim women, the response to which is more racism and bigotry.

The issue of women’s rights is much broader and more complex, and includes challenging patriarchal institutions across the board. In the U.S., we have our own women’s rights issues with the number of missing Native American women and why those stories are ignored, the scale of sexual abuse, media that rewards exposure and materialism, and a culture of emotional abuse and discardment by Western men who think we’re something to consume and throw away on a whim. All of this, another form of voodoo.

To get back to the point — a great place to start on making the case for reform is to read Fazlur Rahman Malik’s work. In 2019, I look forward to adding my own book to that list, Islam’s Origin Story.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Shireen.

Image Credit: Shireen Qudosi.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and Question Time by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com and https://medium.com/question-time

Copyright 

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time 2012-2020. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2018-11-08

What is in a Name? Towards Common Identity Within Diversity of Nonbelievers

Author: Nsajigwa I Mwasokwa (Nsajigwa Nsa’Sam)

Numbering: Issue 1.B, Idea: African Freethinking

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: African Freethinker

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: November 8, 2018

Issue Publication Date: TBD

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,460

ISSN 2369-6885

Keywords: identity, name, nonbelievers, Nsajigwa I Mwasokwa, Nsajigwa Nsa’sam.

What is in a Name? Towards Common Identity Within Diversity of Nonbelievers[1],[2],[3]

New Doc 3_3

I am writing this in response to Levi Fragell’s call for the Humanist movement to strive for the common identity the world over. Elder Levi is the current leader, President (2002) of the International Humanist Ethical Union, an organization uniting “nonbelievers” of the world.

What are they? These are individuals who have a naturalistic worldview/life-stance, instead of (most often having rejected) a supernatural metaphysical one. While I agree with his call, I also have found it timely to inform of what is in a name that we have chosen to identify with, for our nascent Humanist organization in Tanzania.

Having evolved to be an Ethical Humanist Nontheist, to me today the question of existence or none of God comes down to evidence of who created him/her/it. This is the gist of the equation. While Theists would say God is self – created, that he/she/it was there from the beginning of time (yet they would deny totally any possibility of nature by itself being there from the beginning) I see it that, it is human beings, MAN who has created God, so much in Ludwig Feuerbach’s line of thinking..!
That I am aware there is three distinctions of Humanism: – Secular, Religious and Ethical humanism, each having certain IMPLICATION. It is important to pay attention to the public implication of the words used, especially so to a movement seeking to appeal and inspire the given populace…

What’s in a name? Each name has a meaning or portrays one. That is so much with many cultures in Africa. Names are given because of events associated. Though of course there has also been blind copying, imitating of western names, likewise Arabic…

New Doc 4_3

Nevertheless, within the African “triple heritage” line, some parents and Nations thought it worthwhile to give two names. One traditional, the other western alias Christian/biblical or Islamic – Arabic. I wish to continue with this tradition, yet footing it on the Humanistic heritage of each “monad” aspect of triple heritage…thus an African name Abapaanja (or Obierika), the Islamic/Arabic  heritage of the Mutazilites and the western (here classic Greece to Renaissance heritage replacing Christianity)
Enters the reality of marketability…the name must be inspiring, appealing, attracting, easy to identify with and positively provocative…That Humanist tradition has several brand names of its identity…Humanism itself, Skepticism, Atheism, Agnosticism, Rationalism, Materialism, Deism, Epicureanism, Nontheism, Unitarianism, Nonbeliever, Non-religious, Freethinking etc.

Freethinking, the last one qualifies best in Tanzania…why…throughout our modern history; we have been a people in search of FREEDOM…Collectively and now as individuals. Freedom from many chains & several bondages. Then came the realization that freedom starts with that of the mind…free mind, and fearless one. Many calls have been made for Africans to emancipate ourselves from mental slavery and colonial mentality. Thus comes the concept of “independent thinking”. This had far-reaching consequences but had limited itself in the hermeneutical reinterpretation of the scriptures and history, replacement of icons (from white ones to black) etc. The next stage in the line ought to be critical questioning of the Gods themselves altogether! Let come freethinking…making a complete breakaway from religion or rather Gods that in fact have never existed in the first place..!

New Doc 3_2

The word “Freethinker” has a strong appeal, provocative whatever it has been used here. People would ask what’s your religion? You would answer I am a freethinker gone beyond religion..! This provokes as it amazes. It means you think, think freely! You reflect, analyze, use your brain and don’t mere believe..!

This has the immediate effect of making them re-examine what you say/what you argue, at least for the moment. They take you seriously, and if you are known to be Ethical, that makes them interested even further…

“A freethinker has gone beyond religion and is living by a golden rule”..!

Then the tradition….Aba-paanja…these were the non-believers “the outsiders” in Ngonde – Nyakyusa culture/tradition. It is the evidence that in every age, generation and culture, there are always individuals who are part of that culture but becomes rationalistic to challenge some aspects of that very culture, rebels within. So it was with traditional African too, not everyone was a conformist..!

Nigerian great writer one Chinua Achebe had one such character (named Obierika) in his great book, Things fall apart. Obierika symbolized nonconformist within African traditions itself..!

Conclusion: which is the appropriate term? Humanism has both sides of coin by its implication to the populace. The positive side, it implies treating each other humanely. This has a strong appeal. Yet it could be interpreted as “MAN worship”. But man is imperfect, unworthy of worship; people would wish to submit to something infallible (Allah)..!

Again Humanism was a social philosophical ideology in nearby Zambia, pursued by its founder father there. Its experimentation failed. So people might assume you are a “die-hard” follower of Kenneth Kaunda’s failed ideology.

New Doc 3_1 (1)

Atheism, likewise Secularism here would be associated with “Godless Communism”…equally a failed system that was tyrannical…forcing people to abandon religions. It was undemocratic, more so lacking in individual liberty. Unfortunately, it substituted the worship of God to worship of Ideology, as propagated one way (only way!) by the s/elect few of the Kremlin.

The term “Philosophy” is a likely candidate. It is a respectable one, looked with reverence. It implies someone who thinks so deep and become wise in arguments. Its problem is it being associated with being a highly educated – Academic – to the level of Ph.D. This excludes the naturally born self-taught thinkers without degrees. Think this way that Socrates, David Hume and J J Rousseau could have been excluded..!

In between, late Philosopher Prof Paul Kurtz – an eminent thinker & Leader & Activist for Freethinking and Skepticism, introduced the term “Eupraxsophy” to rescue philosophy back to its original meaning – the theory that goes with praxis. However, it hasn’t caught fire thus far. It awaits the future..!

“Freethinking” stand out the best. It is a process…to think…freely…and fearlessly…
It has strong appeal because it connotes freedom of the mind, something that Africans yearns for, collectively and more so as Individuals.

Thanks, …it’s an unpublished work of 2002, published now the first time in 2018.
PS: While the central argument of the article stands, however things have changed since. Nowadays, markedly from 2012 with the rise of a new generation of nonbelievers, the terms “Atheism” and “Secular Humanism” have become the preferred ones. So be it..!

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Founder, Jichojipya/ThinkAnew.

[2] Individual Publication Date: November 8, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/nonbelievers.

[3] Image Credits: Nsajigwa I Mwasokwa (Nsajigwa Nsa’sam).

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Mwasokwa N. What is in a Name? Towards Common Identity Within Diversity of Nonbelievers [Online].November 2018; 1(B). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/nonbelievers.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Mwasokwa, N. (2018, November 8). What is in a Name? Towards Common Identity Within Diversity of Nonbelievers. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/nonbelievers.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): MWASOKWA, N. What is in a Name? Towards Common Identity Within Diversity of Nonbelievers.  African Freethinker. 1.B, November. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/nonbelievers>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Mwasokwa, Nsajigwa. 2018. “What is in a Name? Towards Common Identity Within Diversity of Nonbelievers.” African Freethinker. 1.B. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/nonbelievers.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Mwasokwa, Nsajigwa “What is in a Name? Towards Common Identity Within Diversity of Nonbelievers.” African Freethinker. 1.B (November 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/nonbelievers.

Harvard: Mwasokwa, N. 2018, ‘What is in a Name? Towards Common Identity Within Diversity of Nonbelievers‘, African Freethinker, vol. 1.B. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/nonbelievers>.

Harvard, Australian: Mwasokwa, N. 2018, ‘What is in a Name? Towards Common Identity Within Diversity of Nonbelievers‘, African Freethinker, vol. 1.B., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/nonbelievers.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Nsajigwa I Mwasokwa. “What is in a Name? Towards Common Identity Within Diversity of Nonbelievers.” African Freethinker 1.B (2018):November. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/nonbelievers>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Mwasokwa N. What is in a Name? Towards Common Identity Within Diversity of Nonbelievers [Internet]. (2018, November; 1(B). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/nonbelievers.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and African Freethinker by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and African Freethinker 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and African Freethinker with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2018-11-08

An Interview with Catherine Broomfield (Part Two)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: November 8, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,272

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Catherine Broomfield is the Executive Director of iHuman Youth Society. She discusses: the narratives of iHuman; belief systems and ways of life; initiatives for 2018/19; ways to become involved; and other organizations.

Keywords: Catherine Broomfield, Executive Director, iHuman Youth Society, Indigenous, youth.

An Interview with Catherine Broomfield: Executive Director, iHuman Youth Society (Part Two)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Before I touch on the topic of belonging, I have observed something in life. People who have the self-worth void. That perpetual feeling of lack. One group will go into the path of not really knowing what to do with themselves and their negative feelings.

Another group become super high achievers. But they hit a wall. Because this stops working in terms of dealing with the fundamental emotional and self-esteem issues that they might be harbouring. It is a reaction as a driver, but an unhealthy driver.

Does that path come forward in narratives through iHuman or elsewhere?

Broomfield: Honestly, I can only speak to observing the youth here, not those who do not come here. There is an observation that some people are able to use their early life as a motivator. Yet, that still has its limits. I think that’s true.

There are so many barriers, deficits, and challenges that the young people at iHuman come to us with; that’s why they come to iHuman is actually the belonging, which is expressed by their peers, and out in the community.

It is our street credibility. It is the word of mouth to say, “Hey, come here. I found a place where it is safe. People know my name. They know what I’m up to. Let me introduce you to iHuman.” Maybe, the belonging is the first route to being at iHuman and to us being given the gift of trust by the youth.

Trust is so invaluable.  It is risky to be at an organization, to share your story, acknowledge that you need help.  At iHuman, they recognize peers’ similarities in the traumas that they’ve faced. Also, their experience of being somewhere safe is in some ways unnerving.

iHuman is an experience in belonging. It is a gateway in. We have a guiding principle: we are relational. The relationship with the youth is the driver of the organization. It is not something that we compromise on. Therefore, we do things differently.

We look to the youth to tell us, “How would you solve the problem? How would you do it?” We build what they want us to build. For example, the way in which a meeting, sharing your story can feel safe and so on.

2. Jacobsen: Youth live in a context with parents and grandparents with trauma. That trauma coming from formal institutions within a nation. Those, basically, get passed on as avoidance stories, “Do not get involved in that institution. Distrust it.”

You mentioned earlier on the Residential schools as well as the ‘60s scoop. With regards to the Residential school system, it is 150,000 kids for over a century. It was both the mandate of the Government of Canada and the Christian religious sects in the country.

I know there’s an admixture now. Because I note that there are Indigenous spiritual beliefs around Creator and creation. There are also Indigenous Christian beliefs. It is a new phenomenon. But it is a certain form of reconciliation.

There are new Native American and Indigenous theologians cropping up, who work to reconcile the Indigenous spiritual beliefs and their Christianity. There are others who reject the Indigenous spiritual beliefs and something enforced through family lineage with Christian belief heritage.

So, youth, not necessarily a belief in a Creator or not – Indigenous or Christian – but a kind of cultural milieu that comes with both, coming in without a belief in either of those.

Do you try to bring back some of those beliefs or work with the youth where they’re at? They don’t want that belief system in their manner of being, in their way of life, moving into the future.

Broomfield: We work from a place of where those youths are at. Not only in the spiritual sense but holistically, “Where are they at emotionally? Where are they at intellectually? Where are they socially?” We are providing a space for that exploration, those realizations, or expressions of needs to be shared.

From that, we are individualizing an approach for the young person, which may include our creative studios and spaces that we have. It would be both from an art as therapy approach or art as an expression for creativity.

It could also be that the young person is interested in our caring services, which would be more focus on the basic needs, e.g., mental health working in partnership with the local health unit that comes and works with the social workers.

Or the other way we weave all this together is through the authenticity pillar of our portfolio. We, as we say, “Keep it real.” It could be from a cultural safety perspective. We are offering to the young person an opening to reconnect and re-identify with their culture.

However, [Indigenous cultural opportunities] is not something that we actively offer because we are a non-Indigenous organization working primarily with Indigenious young people.  We invite exploration through role-modelling. It is through the youth who will identify, acknowledge, or ask questions to be able to learn and to understand, to talk things through.

Because you’re right.

There could be a mix of shame, guilt, resentment, exclusion. There are many layers there. It, certainly, isn’t something that can be generalized. That every person comes to that question in a different way. They will seek out the answers in a different way.

We are here to encourage or support or provide something if we can; if not, then that’s the need for a provision of a referral in order to help this young person find answers.

3. Jacobsen: Moving into 2018/19, what are some of the initiatives that you’re hoping to build on or found for iHuman?

Broomfield: We have recently gone through a weeklong closure at iHuman. The youth acknowledged that we need some training. We spent some time looking at the values and principles. We have not examined them, since 23/24 years ago. We wanted to examine them.

Do these still fit for us? We have trained around attachment theory and how this may manifest in behaviours that we see in youth, and in us as staff because we’re are fallible humans too. We have trigger points and so on.

How can we recognize when we cross that boundary of being here as an advocate to a young person versus satisfying our own ego or some other need?

It has to be about what we do for the kids and what they need. One of the things that we are looking to continue out of the week is implementing a review of our entire programming structure using social design and how the outcomes we’re after can be implemented in the best possible way in order to get to those outcomes.

Something that we also learned and are exploring is Principles Focused Evaluation. How can we use the principles of the organization to evaluate the quality of the impact on young people and to share the story? For the next few years, we will look under the rocks of what we do: is it useful? Does it honour the youth and our principles?

It is to evaluate ourselves and make ourselves efficient. It is to get some funders and resource streams to see what we do here is unique and provides for young people who come here. To understand the value and appreciate how transformative it is that these young people attain goals that they have.

That is the aim of us being here. Society has already invested millions of dollars in each of these children/youth: education, the court system, police, and so on. All these institutional structures are pouring money. But that is a model about the negative and the punitive approach.

We are a strengths-based approach. What are the gifts this person has, if they can see it, they can go back to the sense of purpose and worth? They make the journey with self-affirmation rather than some outside source saying, “You’re only good enough for this.” ‘This’ being jail, incarceration of some other kind, wandering the streets homeless or dead.

There is so much that these young people have to share if given the opportunity. They can turn down a different path and then have a different outcome. They are contributing to reconciliation in a lived way. They can have healthy families with their kids and break the cycle.

The violence and intimate partner violence and these things; it starts with giving young people a platform where they can work on some things while having role models.

4. Jacobsen: What are some ways to be involved with iHuman?

Broomfield: We have opportunities for volunteers, champions out in the community. We are selective. Because we want to make sure safe people come here, for the volunteers and the youth. We have board positions available, staff positions available, and so on.

We need to be sure people connected to iHuman know where these young people are coming from. What brought them to this situation? There are structures and institutions in society that have helped create this situation. So, it is understanding that.

It is being aware, fundamentally, that there are things wrong in society and communities. People informing themselves about our national history around the genocide of the Indigenous people. Our failure in honouring the treaties that were signed. It is educating yourself about that.

That is a start. If you know, it will be less likely to happen again. That, in itself, will be positive.

5. Jacobsen: Any other organizations? Also, any books or authors who write on this topic for a lay public in a clear, concise but educated way?

Broomfield: Any organization that is doing good work. That fits with your values; you can align with them. That is a good use of anyone’s time to support in the community. In terms of writers and researchers, I think there are a number of Indigenous writers, who we can look to and their stories and narratives.

Richard Wagamese is an author I’d recommend especially the book “One Story. One Song”.  “Speaking my Truth: Reflections on Reconciliation & Residential School” is a collection of stories well worth reading.

Also, there are a couple of textbooks that touch on relevant aspects to iHuman’s work.  A text was written by a colleague, Peter Smyth “Working with High-Risk Youth: A Relationship-based Practice Framework”.

While I don’t like or use the term “high-risk youth” because it isn’t the youth that is high-risk it’s their behaviours, their choices, their associates and networks; the book is descriptive of this demographic or this population.

Peter has worked within the sector for many years – he knows what he’s talking about. The book is trauma-informed and strengths-based.  Another is “Learning Social Literacy” by Joyce Bellous & Jean Clinton.

Anything by Brené Brown – I especially like “Daring Greatly: How the Courage to Be Vulnerable Transforms the Way We Live, Love, Parent, and Lead”.

6. Jacobsen: Thank you very much for your time, Catherine.

Broomfield: Thank you, Scott. I appreciate our conversation. Usually, it is not the case where you get reciprocal conversation. I appreciate that. Thank you, too.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Executive Director, iHuman Youth Society.

[2] Individual Publication Date: November 8, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/broomfield-two; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Catherine Broomfield (Part Two) [Online].November 2018; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/broomfield-two.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, November 8). An Interview with Catherine Broomfield (Part Two). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/broomfield-two.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Catherine Broomfield (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, November. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/broomfield-two>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Catherine Broomfield (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/broomfield-two.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Catherine Broomfield (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (November 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/broomfield-two.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Catherine Broomfield (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/broomfield-two>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Catherine Broomfield (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/broomfield-two.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Catherine Broomfield (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):November. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/broomfield-two>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Catherine Broomfield (Part Two) [Internet]. (2018, November; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/broomfield-two.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-11-08

An Interview with Gissou Nia

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: November 8, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,814

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Gissou Nia is the Strategy Director of Purpose. She discusses: family and personal background; interest in world politics; and religion as a force for good and religion as a force for bad.

Keywords: executive director, Gissou Nia, international relations, law, politics, Purpose, religion.

An Interview with Gissou Nia: Strategy Director, Purpose[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What was family background and personal background – geography, culture, language, and religion or lack thereof?

Gissou Nia: I am Iranian. I am Iranian-American. I was born in the US. Usually, people of my age were born in Iran after the Revolution and made their way out during the Iran-Iraq War.

We wanted to move back to the country when I was young. But it was during the war. In the end, we decided it was best to stay in the US. My work has been focused on Iran and looking at the human rights situation in Iran.

I grew up in the US. I have since then lived in many places and live here. Nothing remarkable in terms of upbringing [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Nia: I went to law school because the people doing the most impactful human rights work were attorneys. I got my J.D. I worked in the Hague and worked war crimes and crimes against humanity trials for many years.

While there, there was a disputed election in Iran, in June 2009. I found myself unable to think about anything but the unfolding situation there. The fact that there was a peaceful protest and then there was the violent crackdown on those protestors, who were simply asking for their votes to count in an election – in free and fair elections.

That was the extent of those demands. Those demands were not taken seriously and were, instead, met with violence. That left an impression on me. Twitter was a new platform. It was the first example of people organizing on Twitter discussing what was happening on the ground in Farsi tweets and English tweets.

I was gaining a sense of what was happening on the ground. I realized the skills I gained in The Hague in terms of investigating human rights abuses, preparing an evidentiary case to established grave human rights violations.

All that could be really helpful in the Iran context. Because I spoke the language. It could be helpful in gathering the evidence and preparing dossiers, essentially, against perpetrators of human rights violations there.

That motivated me wanting to work in Iran-specific work. I did that for 6 years. More recently, I have been working on refugee and migrant issues. That came out of the Iran work.

In the sense that a lot of individuals I would interview, a lot of the Iranians I would interview about human right abuses that they were subjected to while in Iran had fled Iran and were living in Iraq, Turkey, and Malaysia, wherever Iranians do not need a visa.

It is where folks do not need to seek asylum or be in the UNHCR process to get refugee status and be resettled in a new country. Being in that experience, it really showed me the gaps in the refugee resettlement process.

The fact that so few people who are seeking protection are afforded that ability to be resettled elsewhere and to escape violence & persecution. That motivated me. That field experience with Iranian refugees made me want to look globally and holistically at the people and helping them find resettlement throughout the entire journey.

2. Jacobsen: You lived in Iran shortly but also travelled around the world quite a bit. Did the travel around the world influence the international, global perspective and interest in world politics?

Nia: For sure, there are different labels for it, like Third Culture Kid. When you’re a product of East and West, you are going to not view things as black and white. I think there is a growing sense of that among everybody, especially with the fact that more and more of us are digital native.

They will be exposed to the world based on what they see online. It is different than two decades ago, where there would be real barriers to exploring that. When you’re the product of different cultures and speaking different languages – and fluent in that in-between space or acting as a bridge between cultures; it is going to shape you, no matter what.

You will notice people are very similar regardless of where they come from. It sounds cliche, but there is so much more that we have in common than different. Unless you’re intimately familiar with it.

It can be hard to understand. Anybody who grows as a “Third Culture Kid” gets a very innate sense. In my particular case, I am the product of two governments that have for the duration of my life been hostile to one another.

That influences my perspective in terms of seeing people as separate from the government. That is not always the case in the way people view different countries and people within them.

Oftentimes, they see them synonymous with who the rulers are, or this somehow speaks to the character of the people. That is even less so in countries where the leaders are not democratically elected.

They are not seen as representative of the people because the people did not express the will to vote them in via the ballot box. We shouldn’t view the people of the country through what the leaders decide to do or not to do.

That has been impressed upon me because the two countries that I am a product of. Certainly, if everyone around the world viewed Americans as synonymous with Donald Trump, it would make one half of the population unhappy.

It is similar to no other country’s people wanting to be viewed that way.

3. Jacobsen: In terms of looking at these two governments, religion influences politics in different ways. Looking at these two countries that have different majority religious groups, and the different forms in which religion influences politics, what do you note in terms the ways religion can be a force for good in terms of politics as well as a force for bad?

Nia: That is an interesting question. Obviously, in the case of Iran, Iran is a theocracy, so religious platitudes are written into the law. Where, in the US, it is influenced by Judeo-Christian tradition but, of course, is secular. It is a secular democracy.

That feels different what is official policy versus what is done in practice. The thing that I think is distinct about the US, which I think we’re all aware of, is how it may differ culturally than states in Northern Europe, for example.

It appears to be relevant, in the US, if somebody who is running for office is a person of faith; whereas, I don’t know how relevant that is in Norway, for example. I do think there is a bit of a distinction there.

There is certainly much more that is ascribed to morality in the US, personal morality – how somebody conducts themselves in their personal lives. Personally, we are seeing this on display with the Kavanaugh hearings and what he is doing.

It wades into the criminal. So, that is a separate thing. But it speaks to how important that is to our evaluations of who should be in positions of power in this country. I think there is a deeply influential stream of religion, culturally, in terms of how we do politics here in the US.

So, that is not enshrined in the law. It is relevant. It is certainly relevant. As a force for good, in the work that I do with refugee and migrant populations, I think one huge target audience in our work has been communities of faith, actually.

Because, although, members of some of those communities in the US might, actually, vote for conservative candidates in office who, sometimes – it depends, are more often supporting policies that restrict the number of newcomers coming to the US.

Although, they might support those policies. These folks that are voting for those candidates for other reasons might be welcoming to refugees. They feel that their faith calls upon them to serve those who are in need of protection.

You see, certainly, among Catholics who believe in this right to work and freedom of movement philosophy and this idea of providing for one’s family. You see these strong currents. Some of the most activated audiences, engaged populations, and motivated to deeply help, have been those from a faith background.

I think religion can be harnessed as a force for good. But any time it is used for an exclusionary purpose or used to divide, I think that is where we run into trouble.

4. Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Gissou.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1]  Strategy Director, Purpose.

[2] Individual Publication Date: November 8, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/nia; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Gissou Nia [Online].November 2018; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/nia.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, November 8). An Interview with Gissou Nia. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/nia.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Gissou Nia. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, November. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/nia>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Gissou Nia.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/nia.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Gissou Nia.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (November 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/nia.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Gissou Nia‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/nia>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Gissou Nia‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/nia.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Gissou Nia.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):November. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/nia>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Gissou Nia [Internet]. (2018, November; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/nia.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-11-08

An Interview with Tim Moen (Four)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: November 8, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,346

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Tim Moen is the President of the Libertarian Party of Canada. He discusses: Bill C-51, Bill C-13, or the TPP; overarching mission; proper limit and role of government; vision for Canada; principles; activists, authors, bloggers, writers, and so on, that influence him and deserve greater exposure; and philosophers and books that most influenced him.

Keywords: Libertarianism, Libertarian Party of Canada, Tim Moen.

An Interview with Tim Moen: Leader, Libertarian Party of Canada (Part Four)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Would the Libertarian Party of Canada replace Bill C-51, Bill C-13, or the TPP (in part or whole) with other bills or trade partnerships or repeal them then leave things with those actions?

Tim Moen: Yes, we would repeal all of these.

A proper international trade agreement is between two people or businesses that agree to trade with each other.

Of course, governments who are beholden to special interest groups (i.e. ideologues, a business lobby, union lobby) make it their business to introduce trade barriers and interfere with these agreements and so then other governments retaliate with economic and trade policy to punish unfavourable trade conditions for their people.

My approach would be to work on eliminating all trade barriers that were in my power to eliminate so that Canadians could trade with whomever they want to be unencumbered by the Canadian government.

I would then lean on other governments to remove the trade barriers they put in place that make it difficult for Canadians to trade with citizens in their nation.

2. Jacobsen: What is the overarching mission of the Libertarian Party of Canada?

Moen: Our overarching mission is to limit government and decrease the amount of institutionalized initiatory violence being used against the very people government is supposed to protect form initiatory violence.

3. Jacobsen: What is the proper limit and role of government?

Moen: The proper role of government is to protect individuals from initiatory violence. The government gets its authority delegated from us (in theory) and since no human has the right to initiate violence then we can’t properly delegate that right to government, but we do have the right to defend ourselves and others and so it is reasonable to delegate that role to government.

Not everyone is equipped or competent to use violence to defend themselves and so this is the role government takes on as well as dispute resolution.

Anytime a person is in an involuntary position of power the proper thing to do is to eliminate the need for that involuntary relationship by empowering others. As a parent, I want fully actualized children that aren’t yoked to me through dependence as they enter their adult years. I want our relationship to transition to a voluntary one.

I personally think that the future of mankind will look very different and that our relationships with institutions like the government will eventually transition from involuntary to voluntary. I think it is limited thinking to imagine that there are some services that can only ever be provided through involuntary means.

4. Jacobsen: What is the vision for Canada through the Libertarian Party of Canada?

Moen: We are not utopians, we don’t have a central plan or vision for Canadians. Our vision would be for a Canada that is full of people who are free to pursue the destiny and vision they choose for their lives.

Amazing positive unexpected consequences occur when people are free and it is our belief that Canada will flourish in a way that we can’t imagine or predict.

5. Jacobsen: What other principles besides freedom contribute to, or would contribute to, the flourishing of Canadians within the Libertarian Party of Canada’s view?

Moen: Beyond the obvious benefits of having an economy on steroids, there would be immense social benefits. Liberty implies that you are self-owned and so you own both the positive and negative effects of your actions in this world.

People often forget that liberty doesn’t just denote freedom but also accountability. If you do harm it is your job to make things right. So, for example, we believe justice ought to focus on restoration of victims by criminals as well as protecting society.

Personal accountability also means that you have a greater sense of duty to your fellow citizens. That if you have a neighbour that falls on hard times you help them out as opposed to outsourcing their care to a soulless institution.

More closely connected communities and families, more charity, a greater sense of civic pride, an internal locus of morality and control, and far less anxiety are all things that I believe emerge in a culture that embraces liberty.

6. Jacobsen: Who are activists, authors, bloggers, writers, and so on, that influence you, and deserve greater exposure?

Moen: On various liberty subjects I recommend Murray Rothbard, Frederic Bastiat, Ron Paul, Ludwig Von Mises, Friedrich Hayek, Nassim Taleb, Peter Jaworski, Tom Woods, Jeffrey Tucker, Stefan Kinsella, Dr. Carl Hart, Butler Shaffer, John Taylor Gatto, Ayn Rand and Adam Smith.

A few authors that have been particularly helpful to me in my personal development are Marshall Rosenberg, Michael Shermer, and Tony Robbins.

7. Jacobsen: What philosophers and books most influence you? Why?

Moen: Ayn Rand’s writings had a big influence on me. The logic and precision of her writing and ideas helped me understand the reasoning from first principles. Thinking from principles instead of intuitions has helped me develop my political philosophy.

Marshall Rosenbergs’ book “Nonviolent Communication” had a huge impact on my personal life and relationships. I see this book as taking the principle of non-aggression and applying it to communication.

Being able to engage in conversations, not as battles of domination, but as a way of having our needs mutually met had huge benefits in both strengthening relationships with the people I love but also being able to communicate more effectively with audiences and constituents.

8. Jacobsen: Thank you for your time, Mr. Moen.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Leader, Libertarian Party of Canada.

[2] Individual Publication Date: November 8, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/moen-four; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Tim Moen (Part Four) [Online].November 2018; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/moen-four.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, November 8). An Interview with Tim Moen (Part Four). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/moen-four.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Tim Moen (Part Four). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, November. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/moen-four>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Tim Moen (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/moen-four.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Tim Moen (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (November 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/moen-four.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Tim Moen (Part Four)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/moen-four>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Tim Moen (Part Four)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/moen-four.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Tim Moen (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):November. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/moen-four>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Tim Moen (Part Four) [Internet]. (2018, November; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/moen-four.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-11-07

Ask Dr. Weld 2 — These Are That Which Malthusian Dreams, Or Nightmares, Are Made

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee: Dr. Madeline Weld

Numbering: Issue 1: Inaugural Issue

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: Question Time

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: November 7, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,761

Keywords: demography, Madeline Weld, Malthus.

Madeline Weld, B.Sc., M.S., Ph.D., is the President of the Population Institute Canada. She worked for and has retired from Health Canada. She is a Director of Canadian Humanist Publications and an editor of Humanist Perspectives.

Scot Douglas Jacobsen: In terms of the one name known to the fearful, Thomas Malthus, the person behind the phrase, when people use it, of “Malthusian.” Who was Thomas Malthus?

Dr. Madeline Weld: Thank you for bringing up Malthus — a controversial figure who is more often disparaged than studied. When it comes to what he wrote about human population growth and food, the tendency is to mention Malthus only to point out how wrong he was. “Malthusian” is often used as a derogatory term. Google did not even honour Malthus with a “Google doodle” on the 250th anniversary of his birth on February 13, 2016, although many obscure individuals receive Google doodles on their significant anniversaries.

Thomas Robert Malthus (1766–1834) was English Anglican cleric and academic who is most famous for his book An Essay on the Principle of Population, first published in 1798 and re-published in a greatly expanded second edition in 1803. This was followed by four more editions with minor changes from the second edition, the last published in 1826. The crux of Principle of Population is that the human population can grow exponentially, while the food supply can only grow arithmetically. Therefore, Malthus reasoned, whenever the food supply is increased (through improvements in agriculture or the opening of new lands), human numbers will always increase until the abundance is eliminated and the poor are once again clinging to the edge of existence, on the borderline between survival and famine. The human population is prevented from increasing beyond its food supply by what Malthus called “positive checks” that increase mortality and “preventive checks” that reduce fertility. Positive checks include famine, disease, poverty, bad nursing of children, unhealthy occupations and exposure to the elements, war, plagues and the like. Preventive checks include later marriage (“the chaste postponement of marriage”) and contraception. Malthus considered birth control to be a “vice” but perhaps if he were living today he would accept it — at least within marriage.

Malthus wrote the first edition at the urging of his father with whom he discussed the ideas of William Godwin and the Marquis de Condorcet, among others. Malthus did not share their optimism about the inevitability of human progress. His views were informed by his own observations of his impoverished parishioners (at Oakwood Chapel in Surrey), whose diet consisted mostly of bread and whose children developed late and were stunted in growth. But despite the misery, the number of births Malthus recorded in the parish registry greatly exceeded the number of deaths. Malthus argued that all the benefits of science and human progress would be eaten up by population growth. If more food became available, more of the children of the poor would survive, and the share for each would be reduced to the minimum required for life.

Malthus is criticized for being indifferent to the suffering of the poor because he proposed the gradual abolition of the “poor laws” (i.e., state welfare) by reducing the number of persons qualifying for it, and thought private charity could help those in dire distress. He thought the poor laws tended to “create the poor which they maintain.” But Malthus also, as John Meyer writes, “called for an end to growth, higher real wages, reductions in inequality and an economic focus on providing material sustenance for the poor rather than luxury goods for the rich. In effect, he proposed more wealth and power to the middle class and a reduction in poverty, all while removing a good part of the means of wealth accumulation for the rich (cheap labour and asset inflation).” Malthus also thought the rich were morally obliged to produce fewer children because if they had large families, the poor would disproportionately suffer material shortages. He questioned the morality of colonization and anticipated and deplored the fate he foresaw for the inhabitants of the New World as settlers claimed their lands. In short, Malthus wanted a better life for people and greater social equality.

Malthus was a student of history and was the first to try to explain historical events in terms of logic and mathematics. Between the first and second edition of his book, he travelled widely within Europe and read extensively, including accounts of the voyages of European explorers, in order to collect data from many societies at various times. He noted that history was replete with population surges and collapses and was the first person to talk about population cycles: “…this oscillation, this constantly subsisting cause of periodical misery, has existed ever since we have had any histories of mankind, does exist at present, and will forever continue to exist, unless some decided change takes place in the physical constitution of our nature.”

Malthus was limited by the data that was available to him 200 years ago. We now have far more detailed data that stretches back thousands of years and this data supports his concept of population cycles. Given the rate at which we are consuming and depleting resources, while our population is still growing by one billion every 12 years or so, it would be imprudent for us to assume that we are not in a global population cycle.

Jacobsen: Why is his name important in the age of the extensive population of the Earth by humanity?

Weld: As John Meyer argues in his article questioning “Why Malthus is Not a Social Hero Like Darwin,” while “Darwin, da Vinci and Aristotle opened our minds to a world of wonder and progressive change for all…Malthus laid out the principle causes for societies’ failure down through the ages.” Who likes a party pooper?

Malthus got a bum rap because the commercial and political elites of his time saw his concepts as direct threats to their own prosperity and power. They treated his proposals with the same enthusiasm as today’s bankers, media corporations, developers and cheap labour employees view a sustainable, no-growth economy. Then there are the socialists who dismiss Malthus because they are offended by his argument that there can be too many people. The techno-optimists dismiss him because they believe that technology and agricultural advancements such as the high-yielding crops developed during the green revolution and more recently through genetic modifications will be able to feed us all — regardless of how rapidly our population grows.

Since Malthus’ time, the world’s population has increased almost 8-fold, from about one billion to over 7.6 billion today. This is often used as evidence that he was wrong. However, the fact that close to one billion people are hungry and about three billion suffer from nutritional deficiencies that affects the physical and mental development of many supports Malthus’ argument that the human population will grow to meet the food supply such that some people remain impoverished. In fact, it is precisely the countries with the most rapid population growth that are unable to pull themselves out of poverty.

Malthus did not foresee two things that allowed for this massive increase in the number of humans. The first is the advent of the age of oil — the bonanza of energy which has powered our economies for the last 150 years — and the second is the green revolution and other advances in agriculture unimaginable in his day. In addition to allowing the 19-fold expansion of the global economy (“gross world product”) since 1950, oil and other fossil fuels are used as energy in the industrial scale production of fertilizer (Haber-Bosch process of nitrogen fixation) and to make the pesticides used on the crops that feed our burgeoning population. It is used in the harvesting and transport of food. Without imported food many local populations would have collapsed long ago.

But our expansion has come at the expense of other life forms as humans take over ever more of the planet’s surface and resources. Malthus has been “proved wrong” — so far at least — at the cost of the depletion of resources and of permanent environmental degradation (at least as far as human lifespans are concerned).

There is a crucial concept outside of Malthus’ ken –overshoot. Many informed people believe that humanity is in overshoot. Overshoot occurs when a species greatly exceeds the long-term carrying capacity of its environment. This can happen when a species encounters a rich and previously unexploited stock of resources (think oil in our case) that promotes its reproduction. Without significant predation or disease (think advances in hygiene and medicine), while large amounts of the stock remain available (“age of oil”), the population of the species can grow many-fold. After a period of time during which the consumption of the stock increases, the stock begins to exhaust and deposits become harder to find (which is why we are now deep sea drilling and fracking). As the remaining stock dwindles, alternative resources of increasingly lower quality are resorted to (which is why we’re going after the tar sands). When the resources run out, most of the population dies, in what ecologists call a population crash or die off. Humans are not only drawing down the one-time bonanza of oil, but also stocks of non-renewable resources essential to our infrastructure and electronics and are consuming renewable resources (such as forests and fish) at an unsustainable rate that prevents their recovery within a timeframe meaningful to our lifespans. The extraction of non-renewable resources and the overexploitation of renewable resources are enabled by oil. The question is, is humanity heading for a population crash?

Malthus thought that the human population would approach a sustainable limit and then hover there, with many people living in poverty and misery. The crash of a human population in overshoot will bring about the death and misery of billions: a catastrophe on a scale far beyond anything that Malthus could have imagined. Therefore, in the words of the late David Delaney, “Malthus was an optimist.”

The reindeer of St. Matthew Island in the Bering Sea should serve as a cautionary tale. Reindeer are not native to the island. A total of 29 young reindeer (24 females, 5 males) were released on the island in 1944 by the US Coast Guard as a potential source of food for employees stationed there, but the station on the island was subsequently abandoned. The reindeer faced no predators on the island, and there was an abundance of nutritious lichen for them to eat. In a 1957 survey by wildlife researchers, there were 1,350 reindeer on the island, and in 1963 there were 6000. But in the 1963 survey, the vegetation on the island had been significantly altered and the condition of the reindeer showed major deterioration and there was a greatly reduced percentage of young animals. At the next survey, in 1966, the population had crashed to 42 reindeer with no fawns or yearlings. The curve of the population growth of the reindeer on St. Matthew Island leading up to the crash is eerily similar to that of the human population since Malthus’ time.

Jacobsen: What is legitimate and illegitimate about the fears of overpopulation? Why?

Weld: It would be hard to make the case that there are any illegitimate fears about overpopulation. No one can predict the future, the best we can do is make educated guesses. But our impact on the environment — both the physical environment and its biodiversity — is undeniable. It has been so dramatic that scientists are calling the times we live in the Anthropocene. The techno-optimists point out that we’re wealthier and longer-lived than we ever have been, and they argue that things will only get better. But they ignore the costs, not only in terms of the more crowded, more hectic, more stressful lives that many of us live, while many people remain impoverished and malnourished, but also in terms of the impact we have had on the planet. For them, the extermination of wildlife and natural spaces is not counted as a loss, and they also don’t seem to understand that we can’t survive on a depleted planet.

Climate change receives the lion’s share of the coverage of our depredations on Earth, in terms of its potential to acidify the oceans, raise sea levels and flood coastal communities, and change rainfall patterns in many areas, including in our vital breadbaskets. But humans have also taken over about one-third of the Earth’s land surface for their own use (and over half the land surface that is habitable). Three quarters of all land on Earth is now significantly affected by human activities. We are scouring the oceans for fish and other seafood and have depleted several major fisheries; the rest are being fished at or beyond their capacity to replenish themselves. A recent study by the World Wildlife Fund shows that we have wiped out 60% of the mammals, birds, fish and reptiles since 1970, which the authors consider an emergency that threatens civilization. In the words of Rose Bird, the late former Chief Justice of the California Supreme Court: “We have probed the earth, excavated it, burned it, ripped things from it, buried things in it, chopped down its forests, leveled its hills, muddied its waters, and dirtied its air. That does not fit my definition of a good tenant. If we were here on a month-to-month basis, we would have been evicted long ago.” I’m sure the other species on Earth would love to evict us!

There is no reason that we have to be destroying life on Earth. The economic growth-forever dogma which guides our economic and political decisions is suicidal and will have to evolve into something more sustainable. And we cannot keep adding well over 80 million people to the Earth’s population each year; one billion every 12 years. We have a wide range of choices of effective birth control methods and it would be technically possible to supply every reproductive-age person with birth control. We have the capacity to limit the number of children we have. The impediments are sociological, cultural and religious. Of course I have to disagree with Malthus about birth control being a vice, but this does not diminish his argument about the existence of real limits.

Norman Borlaug, the father of the green revolution, is almost universally honoured, while Thomas Malthus is more often than not dismissed and even vilified. But when Borlaug was awarded with the Noble Peace Prize in 1970 for his achievements, he said in his acceptance speech: “There can be no permanent progress in the battle against hunger until the agencies that fight for increased food production and those that fight for population control unite in a common effort.” Thomas Robert Malthus would have agreed.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Madeline.

Sources used:

Avery, John Scales. Thomas Robert Malthus, We Need Your Voice Today! Countercurrents. 11 June 2017. https://countercurrents.org/2017/06/11/thomas-robert-malthus-we-need-your-voice-today/

Delaney, David. Overshoot in a nutshell. http://davidmdelaney.com/overshoot-in-a-nutshell.html

Klein, David R. The introduction, increase and crash of reindeer on St. Matthew Island. Journal of Wildlife management, Vol. 32 (2): 350–367, 1968. http://dieoff.org/page80.htm

Meyer, John Erik. Why Malthus is Not a Social Hero Like Darwin. Humanist Perspectives, Issue 198: 16–19, Autumn 2016. https://www.humanistperspectives.org/issue198/05-Article_Meyer-34_pp_16-19.pdf . (Disclosure: I am a co-editor of Humanist Perspectives magazine.)

The Socialist Party of Great Britain. World Poverty and Birth Control: Malthus Was Wrong. November 2018. https://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/socialist-standard/1970s/1970/no-792-august-1970/world-poverty-and-birth-control-malthus-was-wrong/

University of Cambridge. The man we love to hate: it’s time to reappraise Thomas Robert Malthus. May 18, 2016. https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/the-man-we-love-to-hate-its-time-to-reappraise-thomas-robert-malthus

Weld, Madeline. Sadly, Malthus Was Right — Now What? Montreal Gazette, February 15, 2016. Reprinted in Free Inquiry, June/July 2016, p. 42. https://montrealgazette.com/opinion/columnists/opinion-sadly-malthus-was-right-now-what

Wikipedia. Gross World Product (accessed Nov. 7, 2018). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_world_product

Wikipedia. Thomas Robert Malthus (accessed Nov. 5, 2018). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Robert_Malthus

World Wildlife Fund. A Warning Sign From Our Planet: Nature Needs Life Support. October 30, 2018. https://www.wwf.org.uk/updates/living-planet-report-2018 See also The Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/oct/30/humanity-wiped-out-animals-since-1970-major-report-finds

Image Credit: Madeline Weld.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and Question Time by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com and https://medium.com/question-time

Copyright 

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time 2012-2020. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2018-11-06

Ask Charlotte 3— Training Grassroots Activists in Palestine

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee: Charlotte Littlewood

Numbering: Issue 1: Inaugural Issue

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: Question Time

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: November 6, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 605

Keywords: Become The Voice CIC, Charlotte Littlewood, Palestine.

Charlotte Littlewood is the Founding Director of Become The Voice CIC. A grass roots youth centred community interest company that she has built in response to the need to tackle hate, extremism and radicalisation within communities and online.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What is the social media training for grassroots activists in Palestine?

Charlotte Littlewood: We did a full program out in Palestine, which included social media training alongside awareness that included the groups, e.g., women’s groups looking at domestic violence, early marriage, the stigma of divorce, and abortion rights. They could put forward their reflections and positive message on social media. Some had large social media followings. They all had Instagram, Facebook accounts, Twitter was new to them.

We started with basic training around Twitter. Because they weren’t using that as much. Then skills like making sure the hashtag you’re using is the most popular hashtag of its type. The use of hashtags on Instagram and not on Facebook (because there is no point). @ing at people who have followers, so you can have more exposure and people in the conversation. We looked at things having more likes than others with bold colours, captions on Instagram, and faces too. But with the culture in Hebron, some did not want to show it (their faces); others did.

Then there are certain times in the day for Facebook and Instagram posts. Instagram is pretty much active all day. Facebook has peak times. We try to make sure everything is optimized. We then had everyone join a group, so they would like and share with each other to be a platform for one another.

In the end, they chose a particular topic to focus on, to gain as much awareness around that as possible. We stepped away from social media in the programmes confusion and concluded with training community groups on domestic violence: how to seek help if you’re a victim or know someone who is a victim.

Jacobsen: What can you teach them? What can you rely on them to learn by themselves?

Littlewood: The things around posts, how and what to post and the tone of the posts and making sure to use hashtags and include organizations with large followings; Twitter was taught, how to set it up. They were very competent on Facebook. They are using social media a lot already. But there are some cultural issues around images and images of people, interpretations of Islam that women should not be doing social media themselves

There are mixed approaches to social media posts with girls around that.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Charlotte.

Please see the project report: https://becomethevoice.org/news-insights/

Image Credit: Charlotte Littlewood.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and Question Time by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com and https://medium.com/question-time

Copyright 

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time 2012-2020. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2018-11-04

Ask Sara 1 — Building Early An Career & Portfolio

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee: Sara Al Iraqiya

Numbering: Issue 1: Inaugural Issue

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: Question Time

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: November 4, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 685

Keywords: career, media, Sara Al Iraqiya.

Sara Al Iraqiya is a USA-based 2nd generation Iraqi-American social scientist, writer, producer, and activist. Raised under Sunni Islam and a survivor of attempted radicalization in American mosques and centers — she has both lived experience as well as academic experience with Islam. Sara aims to educate her fellow lovers of Western civilization on the horrors, inequalities, and injustices that occur in geographically Western mosques and Islamic centers. Sara has been published in two languages (and counting). A world traveler, she briefly lived in France, Jordan, and even Cuba in order to complete her Masters of Arts in Global Affairs specializing in Global Culture and Society. Sara Al Iraqiya’s has been published in Conatus News and Spain’s ALDE Group. She has also been featured on CRTV and Compound Media.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: You work at some prominent media outlets. When working in a more prominent publication, and building an early career portfolio, how can a person, whether older or younger but still early career, systematically construct a publication portfolio?

Sara Al Iraqiya: Write up a “pitch,” watermark it accordingly, and send out your pitches to whoever will read them. Be a loud mouth — talk to people. In the past, perhaps the advice was “slow and steady wins the race.”

Today, that is outdated advice. The faster you can move up, the faster you should move up. Accept any and all internships in relation to writing or whatever your media or journalistic endeavour may be.

I think a lot of young people overlook internships, especially when they are unpaid, but it helps to look at them as educational. An unpaid internship plus a paying job is not unlike working and going to school. Yes, it is difficult, but you will eventually be rewarded for your efforts.

Jacobsen: Many of the outlets you produce with work in a larger team. How is working with a larger team at a moderately prominent publication giving a better experience in not only a cooperative asynchronous electronic environment but also seeing different backgrounds, skill sets, and ability and talent levels in action?

Al Iraqiya: The role of the internet in the way we communicate, in my experience, is a wonderful thing. One can work remotely for example with a large, global cooperative but can easily connect via social media platforms. I did this with Conatus News.

And, of course, because it is a global team you will hear from many, as you say asynchronous voices as bias is always present and it is largely shaped by our environment.

From a logistical perspective, people are publishing different things all of the time, you need to be comfortable working with different time zones, patience is a virtue, lots of trial and error.

This is why I cannot recommend internships enough. It is also imperative to keep up with your fellow writers! Why?

Because it is fun and everyone wins. You may disagree with your peers, agree with them, though you disagreed with them but they opened your eyes to new possibilities, and perhaps you return that favour. It is all highly rewarding.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Sara.

Image Credit: Sara Al Iraqiya.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and Question Time by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com and https://medium.com/question-time

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time 2012-2020. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2018-11-03

Ask Tara 3 — Changing Gender Dynamics in the Workplace

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee: Tara Abhasakun

Numbering: Issue 1: Inaugural Issue

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: Question Time

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: November 3, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 664

Keywords: gender dynamics, Tara Abhasakun, workplace.

Tara Abhasakun is a colleague. We have written together before. I reached out because of the good journalism by her. I wanted to get some expert opinion on women’s rights, journalism, and so on. I proposed a series. She accepted. Abahasakun studied history at The College of Wooster. Much of her coursework was in Middle East history.

After graduating Tara started blogging about the rights of women, LGBT, and minorities in MENA. She is currently a freelance writer. She is of Thai, Iranian, and European descent. She has lived in Bangkok and San Francisco. Here we talk about updating gender dynamics in the workplace.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: With the new open channels of communications about sexual misconduct in all situations, not ideally set or widely accepted but, certainly, increasing, this should alter workplace dynamics between the genders.

What will the changing international landscape of work life mean for the genders?

Tara Abhasakun: I think that in the beginning, things may be a bit rocky because many people are afraid about false accusations and the idea that anything they do will be read as misconduct.

I think that in light of the #MeToo movement, we are seeing some of the frustrations over this issue fizzle out.

Much of this frustration is from men who are genuinely misogynists, however, I believe that a good amount of this frustration is from men who now genuinely feel as though every interaction that they have with a woman could be branded as harassment.

I don’t have all the answers. But I think the beauty of the #MeToo movement is that we are HAVING these conversations.

This is only the beginning, and I think the reason we see this type of tension, awkwardness, and frustration is BECAUSE we are finally addressing issues that, for a long time, have been swept under the rug.

We are seeing the birth pangs of the movement, now that men and women are thinking about these issues. We are starting to answer questions such as, “How much touching is appropriate in X situation?”

What type of greeting is appropriate when addressing strangers on the street? It’s frustrating and hard because we are at this beginning stage, and it’s going to take another generation to have a clearer sense of the answers.

But I think that as we continue trying to answer these questions, things will settle down, and hopefully one day we can have a world free of all sexual violence and misconduct, though that day is probably far off in the future.

Jacobsen: What workplace policies, protections, mores, and norms would improve the trajectory of the changing gender dynamics in the workplace?

Abhasakun: Once again, I don’t have all the answers. I believe that we need to be careful in prescribing one exact “remedy” for sexual misconduct.

This question is rather broad, and I believe that if it was about a more specific company or industry, I might be better able to answer it.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Tara.

Image Credit: Tara Abhasakun.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and Question Time by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com and https://medium.com/question-time

Copyright 

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time 2012-2020. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2018-11-01

An Interview with Catherine Broomfield (Part One)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: November 1, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,381

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Catherine Broomfield is the Executive Director of iHuman Youth Society. She discusses: family and personal background; mentors; first work in the non-profit world; touching stories in the non-profit world; situations and difficulties of youth; finding; iHuman Youth Society; reasons for lack of purpose in youth; big negative effects happening to some vulnerable youth; and self-efficacy and self-esteem concerns manifesting in youth.

Keywords: Catherine Broomfield, Executive Director, iHuman Youth Society, Indigenous, youth.

An Interview with Catherine Broomfield: Executive Director, iHuman Youth Society (Part One)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What was family background? What was personal background?

Catherine Broomfield: I was born in England and immigrated to Canada in the mid-1970s. My parents, younger siblings, and I arrived in the dead of a winter snowstorm. It was a big transition, to a new country.

2. Jacobsen: When it comes to community-oriented work? Were there pivotal mentors who inspired you?

Broomfield: Not specifically that I can think of, except, I had the experience of leaving family, being adrift in terms of having no family network other than my own immediate one, e.g., no aunties and uncles. It made me more in tune with the needs of others, more in need of the community, and always being someone who is a helper and a doer.

It led its way into the non-profit world.

3. Jacobsen: What was some of the first work while in the non-profit world?

Broomfield: My first job was as an executive director for a boys and girls club in Alberta. I have been involved in non-profit activities through sports events like Winter Games, Alberta Summer Games.

These were community engagement roles I had been involved in. Then I stepped away from them for quite a few years. I did some GIS mapping work, marketing. Working at the university, I coordinated international exchanges and worked with international students and post-secondary schools.

4. Jacobsen: In the experience in the non-profit world, what were some of the stories that you found touching?

Broomfield: In my experience with the girls and boys club as the first non-profit, there was a lot of interest and need by the young people in the community in which I was working, to have opportunity, to be introduced to new things, which they, otherwise, would not have been able to experience.

Given the economic situation of their families, it was an opportunity to introduce those young people to experiences, which they wouldn’t have otherwise.  Secondly, to support a community/sense of belonging for the young people who came regularly, who shared learning and opportunities with one another?

I do not have a specific story from back then other than what many of the young people expressed about how they felt coming to the Club every day.

Now at iHuman, there are similarities to that earlier experience though there are 25 years between them.  Young people still looking to fit in and belong somewhere.  Still need a sense of purpose, identity and self-worth.

I’ve had many touching experiences of young people sharing their realizations and successes like getting their children back from out of children’s services care, anniversaries for sobriety, getting the first place or finding out they’re going to be parents for the first time, getting accepted for school or job.

These are everyday milestones in life and what is touching is that the youth identify iHuman as the place where they come first to share their news.  This tells me we’ve created a space where a young person feels valued and witnessed and that’s about as touching as it can get.

5. Jacobsen: When it comes to some of the statistical data about parenting, internationally, we rank high in terms of single parent homes. Those kids have a harder time. What are some of the situations and difficulties for some of the kids coming into it?

Broomfield: I was, myself, a teenager mother. At the time, going through university, I was a single parent with a 2-year-old. I was working 2 jobs.  After I graduated, I was still working and parenting alone.  When my son was7-8 I had to make a difficult decision to take a contract job in the North and send my son to his auntie’s while I did that job.  Single parents and their children make a lot of sacrifices in order to survive.

Certainly, I can appreciate the experience from both sides. Because my son was in daycare while I was running a program for other youngsters whose parents were also working full time and could not afford daycare.

There were times during that job when my son came with me.

He participated alongside the other children. We did things over the summer months, where we were doing camping trips and outings around Alberta, Drumheller for example. There is and continues to be a dilemma for parents who are needing to work but also wanting their children to have meaningful, safe activities for their children to participate in.  Single parenting is not an easy situation.  I think most people are trying to make the best of it that they can.

That experience [single parenting] certainly lends itself to the work that I do with iHuman. The youth that are here. They have experienced a lot of trauma, whether that be primarily because of the youth being Indigenous people or otherwise such as familial or high-risk situations.

Indigenous intergenerational trauma is based on the erasure of culture. For the youth, it is a loss of identity and sense of belonging and sense of purpose and self-worth.  This is why these are the outcomes we’re trying to support youth through iHuman to achieve and reconnect the young person to those things.

I am not saying the experience of all single-parent families is why young people end up needing a place like iHuman for support. It is common, however, that there is a breakdown of a relationship in the family.

For the Indigenous youth, there is intergenerational legacies; addiction, gang affiliation, and so on. It is really complex. It sets people feeling as if they have no place to be.

No sense of place. Therefore, a person becomes more attracted to [belongingness]. They go to where they can find it, e.g., drugs, affiliation with gangs. They are looking to fill a need.

And unfortunately, there are people who are there who will fill it, even if it is not healthy.

6. Jacobsen: How did you find yourself iHuman?

Broomfield: It is a combination of the universe [Laughing]…

Jacobsen: …[Laughing]…

Broomfield: …I had a crisis in my personal life, “What am I doing? What am I working for?” I heard about an organization that needed an executive director who could make a commitment for several years. Someone who desired to help and support young people who do not have services and supports.

I realized have those skills. It seemed like a good fit. My values align with the values of the youth and the agency. Being on board, being a leader for this organization is a natural alignment for me.

7. Jacobsen: In connection to some of the difficulties some of the youth face, one experience stands out to me. The purpose void of youth. That’s key to unlocking the door to meaning in life, to get some meaning from life.

What are the factors that building into the lack of purpose?

Broomfield: I am speaking as an observer, obviously. It is not my experience. It is the youths’ experience. So, it is my interpretation of what I see or what they express. I think the key factor is the erasure of Indigenous culture.

The young people here have nothing to tether to. Because of factors stemming from policies such as Residential schools, ‘60s scoop. Those activities of the government have eroded or outright devastated the community.

So, the current generation of young people are seeing their parents and grandparents struggle with addiction, mental health, poverty, lack of employment, lack of education or skills.

Then that is what they observe; if you don’t see others having a purpose or being able to work towards a goal and accomplish a goal, then approaching life this way is something foreign to you. That is an experience of the many of the youth to not have the role modelling.

Then they don’t even know that it is something that is missing, or even know how to describe it. At iHuman, we ask, “What is your purpose? Why do you think you’re here? What is a path for you?” It is often something the youth have not thought of.

Thinking about these things requires being vulnerable.  And for iHuman youth to be vulnerable is dangerous because it means you’ll probably end up being exploited in some way.

They have the same dreams as other young people, “I want a car, job, children. I want a family. I want a house with a fence,” but it is not something that they have seen modelled for them.

To have that [purpose] identified for them to see, it is an unknown to them.

8. Jacobsen: What are some of the other big effects on some of the youth?

Broomfield: Many have not been in school for a long time. Their experiences within any institutional structure tend to be critical and traumatic. They may have struggled with reading, literacy, numeracy, and so on.

They may be at the principal’s office or in the hallway, or at the desk doing little, because the engagement isn’t there. People talk about them.  Being critical against them. They feel stupid. This is how they speak about their experience in school.

So, the opportunity or chance to leave school becomes a relief, I think. A sad byproduct though is it also fractures the opportunity to dream or think, “What can I do with this subject for my life? I really like that subject in school. Maybe, I will be a marine biologist.”

The environment where that stimulation can happen, is gone. You have one less environment where the young person is reinforced as being valuable, or as having done something good. The lack of that; they will seek this in some other way.

It tends to be the ripe environment for people waiting to take advantage of them in some way or other. It is “here, I will befriend you.” The youth are looking for it, the connection. All of our human needs are based on the connection; it is hardwired into us.

If we do not find this in good environments, then we will seek this out in unhealthy ones.

9. Jacobsen: Not only the education gap but these kids will also have self-efficacy and self-esteem concerns. How will those manifest?

Broomfield: I think, again, because of the environment that many of the youth have been experiencing. Those histories and legacies of trauma passed from generation to generation. They could be seen scientifically in terms of attachment theory.

If a young person does not attach healthily with a parent or caregiver, the strategies that they’ve used as an infant in order to get their needs met; those strategies carry forward in life. If you have not been able to have a safe and caring bond as a child, when you find those, it can feel foreign.

“This person wants something from me”; you can also feel not good enough. Even if you have goals and dreams, you can feel, “I am not good enough to have those.” It is common to see self-sabotage when youth find those opportunities or opportunities come their way.

The identity, purpose, and belonging, they are so innately tied to what the youth need. That they do not even know it. We’re trying to support them, encourage them, and show the youth that those are things that they can find in themselves and use the capacity to then go where they want to go in life.

It is not necessarily something that they have in life. You can find a sense of belonging at iHuman and elsewhere. You can find a sense of purpose. You can explore. You can gain strength and power.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Executive Director, iHuman Youth Society.

[2] Individual Publication Date: November 1, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/broomfield-one; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Catherine Broomfield (Part One) [Online].November 2018; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/broomfield-one.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, November 1). An Interview with Catherine Broomfield (Part One). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/broomfield-one.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Catherine Broomfield (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, November. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/broomfield-one>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Catherine Broomfield (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/broomfield-one.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Catherine Broomfield (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (November 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/broomfield-one.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Catherine Broomfield (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/broomfield-one>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Catherine Broomfield (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/broomfield-one.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Catherine Broomfield (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):November. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/broomfield-one>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Catherine Broomfield (Part One) [Internet]. (2018, November; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/broomfield-one.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-11-01

An Interview with Stacey Piercey (Part Two)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: November 1, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,938

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Stacey Piercey is the Co-Chair of the Ministry of Status of Women Sub-Committee of Human Rights for CFUW FCFDU and Vice Chair of the National Women’s Liberal Commission for the Liberal Party of Canada. She discusses: paths of misunderstanding transgender individuals; misinformation and disinformation campaigns; best definition of a transgender individual; definitions and misunderstandings over time; what is the same in the life-arc of a trans woman from youth to elderhood in those who are trans women and who are not trans; what is different in the life-arc of a trans woman from youth to elderhood compared to someone who is not a trans woman; what are the disproportionately negative life outcomes for trans women in different domains of their lives; and the different paths and shades of those paths available to trans women in terms of making the transition in Canada.

Keywords: Co-Chair, Liberal Party of Canada, Ministry of Status of Women, Stacey Piercey, Vice Chair.

An Interview with Stacey Piercey: Co-Chair – Ministry of Status of Women Sub-Committee of Human Rights, CFUW FCFDU; Vice Chair National Women’s Liberal Commission at Liberal Party of Canada | Parti libéral du Canada (Part Two)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: To set some more of the theoretical and empirical groundwork of the extended educational conversation over the coming weeks, I see two streams of misunderstanding about trans individuals. One is simple, relatively benign ignorance; another is deliberate misinformation and disinformation campaigns, through multiple media and social media channels, to scapegoat vulnerable members of society for cultural-political points.  To the simple, relatively benign ignorance, what seems like the source of this? What are the individual and interpersonal consequences for trans-Canadians?

Stacey Piercey: You are right to say that there exist two streams of misunderstanding about transgender individuals. There is ignorance, and that is understandable to a degree, not everyone is aware of what it is like to be transgender. It is a unique experience to the transgender individual. I can relate to you some common themes that I have observed. I can share as much information as humanly possible. If it was easy to explain, I guess there wouldn’t be such a need for advocacy or education.

As you know, this is not something that everyone will encounter. There will always be a lack of knowledge and some ignorance. Just like how I don’t know everything about other groups in society. I do trust that their experience is real, and I can understand to a degree the issues that are faced in other communities by relating my experiences. We are talking about intersectionality, overcoming our differences and the knowledge gained from being able to connect with others. That requires empathy. I learned a while ago to relate to people by addressing common interests and not pointing out differences. I like to connect with others and learn from them. That is my style, to find common ground and solutions were ever possible. I see myself often having conversations about being transgender and answering questions asked of me. People do want to understand and want to help, especially since this has become a relevant social issue.

The other type of ignorance has hurt me, and that is the deliberate misinformation and disinformation campaign that seems to be ongoing. I don’t understand the motives, yet it does exist. Sometimes it is political, sometimes they are exclusionary and sometimes this is outright hate. You may say there is no such thing as bad publicity, but there is, what someone sees in media affects me. I find myself judged unfairly, asked to defend myself or explain myself. I sometimes struggle, as I am seen only as a transgender individual. It is hard when every day all you see are these negative stories. And I know the difference, so I can’t imagine the opinions being formed by others as they watch or read these stories. In Canada, we have moved further along in the conversation when it comes to transgender issues. Our policies are about inclusion and integration. It is no longer about our right to exist. That is happening in other countries, such as the USA and Great Britain right now, as they are having a national conversation. It is a big media machine that has overtaken our story to a degree. I feel like I when back in time watching this unfold, I even forget this is not relevant to me as a Canadian. But it is. You see stories that use outright fear, to pray on these individuals and to make life harder for transgender people in general. We are such a small portion of the population, we have never had privileges, steady jobs, housing or opportunities likes others, and transpeople suffer this incredible onslaught in the media that doesn’t make it easy to live a normal life. My only explanation is that there is money to be made hating transgender people, or there is joy in abusing and oppressing a small minority. It is all beyond me; I was raised to help people, not to hurt them. I honestly have to say I struggle to find good positive stories. And that is wrong.

2. Jacobsen: For the misinformation and disinformation campaigns, what seems like the source for this? What are the individual and interpersonal consequences for trans Canadians?

Piercey: If I was the venture a guess, it is political. For any change to occur for transgender people, we need the support of the media. Good and bad stories bring awareness to the issues. I don’t know if there is a dividing line among groups when it comes to transgender individuals. I have met so many people despite their background, and once they come to know I am transgender, they always say I have a friend, a relative that is transgender. It is a tough life they have, can you help or have any advice. My experience is everyone knows of someone who is transgender in a way. Therefore when it comes to transgender issues, you get every political background creating awareness, some views are extreme, over the top and sensationalized, but it is always someones else’s interpretation of transgender people. In Canada, during our campaign for human rights, we wanted them to come out of the closet, be seen and know it is okay to be transgender. It was time to step forward and say there is a problem that needed to be solved. There were no government statistics; there were no supports, and often these issues were not classified as transgender.

There is another side to this campaign against transgender people, and that is some are not ready for a change in society. They don’t help you; they want you to go away and keep you out of sight. Or worse as I found, I was used, I would work hard, and I ran into empire building. I would have these great ideas and solutions, and others would take credit. I was not respected. Thus not everyone is supportive. In this country, I have seen change occur very shortly through government and businesses. How I am received now is different than it was years ago. The thing is, as a community, we don’t have the population to instill change; we don’t have the experts, we don’t have the representation and are reliant on others to help. We are small in numbers; we are not in control of the conversation, often we are not included, and there is no consensus. I am into policy, and the problem I see, is that this is very expensive to put a gender-neutral washroom in every building, it is expensive to paint a rainbow crosswalk, and it is advanced law, and advanced medicine. Not everybody is ready to deal with this, it is complex, and it needs viable solutions. There is not enough research, legal precedents and medical history to adequately deal with the problems at hand.

3. Jacobsen: Now, those amount to not knowing/being unaware or having imbibed illusory knowledge. To the factual basis of being transgender or a trans person, what best defines a trans individual – or the type of trans individuals – within the modern context? 

Piercey: When I grew up it was simple. It was very binary. You were either a man or a woman. You were born as one gender on the outside and felt like another on the inside. Then you went about the process of transitioning from one gender to another. You go through a transition phase where you are for me as an example, male, not male or female, then female. In my mind that was transgender, it was a term that defined people who transitioned, had their surgeries, did their paperwork and changed their lives from one gender to another.

It isn’t like that anymore; it has become non-binary. We have a third gender concept where people who are gender non conforming that fit into the terminology of transgender. I have heard over 50 classifications for gender. For many there is no desire to seek surgeries, they are okay with who they are, and I would say this new generation or new perspective is what you are seeing more of today. I met fewer people who have the same background or experience as I once did. They are out there, living opposite from the gender they are born in, you don’t notice them because they live stealth.

For me, that shared experience of transitioning, living a point in your life as neither gender, going through that process of change is what makes a transgender person different. It is not about, sexuality, it is about gender and questioning it and living with the knowledge that gender is a social construct. And at the same time, gender it is a big defining point for many individuals. When you remove gender from the individual, what is left but only the person? I see it now as a very open community, that is inclusionary to anyone questioning gender.

4. Jacobsen: How has the definition changed of “trans” or “transgender” over time into the present if at all? How have the misunderstandings changed over time if at all, too?

Piercey: I think in my life the definition of transgender has changed in that has gone from binary to a non-binary. That breaks down any traditional views of gender. I see transgender people as more gender fluid now whereas before it was about going from one gender to another. I am old school in a sense I live female, that is me. But I am floored by some on the new ideas that I have seen. I will be honest I find some of the new terminology and concepts difficult even for me to understand. I am okay with it; I think you should be yourself in this life. I can remember when this was simpler, it was discrete, and not political. That was before the internet and social media. We had support groups. Now it is all over the media; everyone has an opinion on gender. Everyone is sharing what they think. I believe we are watching a gender revolution. And transgender has changed just like society did with technology. I expect what it means to be transgender will continue to follow this evolution. I am all for new ideas, and I believe change is good.

Interestingly enough, the misunderstandings have not changed, for me. It is still the case where I am the representative of everything transgender. If someone sees a transgender story, they think I am like that too. How do you say, I am an individual and not some glorified stereotype.

5. Jacobsen: From your perspective and observations, as you relayed being identified as an elder – an elder trans woman, recently, what is the same in the life-arc of a trans woman from youth to elderhood in those who are trans women and who are not trans?

Piercey: I am an elder, and I understand it is a term of endearment and respect. It is something I have been called personally many times, it is not a cultural thing for the transgender community. For me, it is more about being a survivor. For them, I am a role model, a faux parent, someone who is there with experience and guidance. You see, there are not many people like myself who have transitioned in life and have lived a long time. I have 20 years of experience and stories. A problem that exists is that there is little-recorded history. Whereas I have watched this grow, and I have watched a whole new generation come into the scene. I was always involved with the public, and I am in the transgender community too. People know I am the transgender Liberal, if they got a problem with the government, I will hear it first. Now if you want to know what it was like years ago, you have to ask my friends or me. In that sense I am an elder, I have within me the culture, the history and I can see the changes that have occurred. Another reason is that I have been called an elder is that I have made friends over the years with two spirited people from the indigenous population. That has grounded me, as I know transgender has been around forever, not a mainstream part of society, but it has always been there. And in other cultures, it is very respected. In Newfoundland and the Indigenous community, there is an oral tradition, and I share in these ways. I have all the knowledge of how to navigate the system, as I helped create it and how to transition legally. I can offer great advice and have over the years to many transgender people. And if you want to know something about transgender rights in this world I have one of the better networks, there is to access information. I am a responsible adult, and I like the term elder, and I have taken it too.

6. Jacobsen: Within the same question background, what is different in the life-arc of a trans woman from youth to elderhood compared to someone who is not a trans woman?

Piercey: I am in my forties. Now I have forty plus years of life experience. But that is not what makes me an elder. You can be older than me it doesn’t mean you are an elder in the trans community. Let’s start with the years of transition. Day one, you are transgender, you are brand new to this world. You may know about life, but you don’t know anything about transitioning. These are trans years, I have 20 of those years, and it is that experience that counts. What you may know about life is irrelevant to a degree when you change genders. People have always come to me at this point needing my help. More so in the past, before services were available, I am an expert in the trans community.

The experience is relatively the same for everyone medically speaking. You want and need to be supervised by a doctor. You have to live full time integrating into society for a year. Then you start hormone. Then you go through a second puberty. Living full time is a real test, and taking hormones that is permanent. If you make it this far, following the doctor’s orders and have no complications with the introduction of hormones and no adverse effects to your body you are on your way to transitioning. Hormones scare away a lot of people, and some people can’t take them, especially the male testosterone. It is a weird time, in a transgender person life. It is when they are most vulnerable, and hormones are new, and everything they thought about the other gender is now real to them. It is a learning and growing phases. Eventually, you settle in and find your way. You may have surgery, which again is a significant change, most of my friends are post operation. Therefore, we can relate to each other. Then you wake up one morning and your body after years now matches the image in your mind. You adjust, and you move on with life, everything is normal, gender is not an issue anymore. All is good. Transgender doesn’t solve problems; it is not an escape from your life, it creates tonnes of difficulties. The whole process takes time; it took me probably ten years to regain my confidence and to be good with who I am. It is very similar to a non-transgender woman entering puberty, and the issues faced, it just happens to them when you are younger, and as with them it takes years being a teenager to come into your own.

7. Jacobsen: In terms of the social issues in the lives of trans women, what are the disproportionately negative life outcomes for trans women in different domains of their lives? How does each of these disproportionately negative outcomes play out in concrete terms? 

Piercey: I can easily say, that if I was with hundred people who identify as transgender twenty years ago. Fifty would not be able to change their lives. This door is not open to them. I would say twenty of them would be murdered or commit suicide or incarcerated. It was a big deal to be passible for safety reasons alone. Now I would say of the thirty left, fifteen have entered prostitution for survival, ten are on income assistant, and I would say you have five who are working, transitioned and you will never know they transitioned. That was me, I was lucky, educated, in a relationship, and I knew how to take care of myself. I came out again later in life because I was tired of seeing what happened to the community and its fight for rights and it was overwhelming me trying to help others. I know there are not a lot of transgender people who live long lives after transitioning. I was given seven years by one professional, it was said to me this is a rough life ahead if I do this. Now, I have some friends who have transitioned as long as I have or longer and I know of some individuals older than me too. The truth is we are a science experiment. There aren’t that many people who have done this. I am one of those at the forefront.

8. Jacobsen: What is the process of making the transition? Also, this is a nuanced area. What are the different paths and shades of those paths available to trans women in terms of making the transition in Canada?

Piercey: For me, this was a very regulated medical process to transition. As well, legally it is a real pain in the neck to change all of my documentation. It was not fun; it was hard work. Back in the day, the government would only recognize gender change surgeries, if they occurred within the medical system. Without your surgery, you couldn’t change your identity. These rules do not apply as much anymore. It is good, and it is terrible too, I liked all the supervision and supported I received. I was monitored as if I was part of a military experiment. If anything was wrong with me, I knew right away. It was reassuring. I remember transitioning was the scariest time in my life, going from male to female was a stage that I wanted to go through as fast as I could. It takes times to transition. I wanted to travel, get a good job, or have access to credit, I needed everything to be in order. I thought coming out was hard; I found socializing difficult as I was relearning many skills, and it took me a while. What works for me as a man didn’t necessarily work for me as a woman. I was taken care of, supported and helped to transition completely through the medical system in Canada. I have the best doctors.

Today you can now transition, or be gender non-conforming or gender neutral. It is not so much about taking a pill as it is more about changing your identity to reflect who you are. The rules don’t apply anymore as they once did for me, you can start hormones, and you don’t have to transition fully, you don’t have to have your surgery. A lot of people live gender neutral or some other gender that is not traditional male or female. I can’t imagine how different it is now, there are so many supports, and people are safe to be themselves at a young age, and the social stigma is going away. Part of the transgender experience was in hiding, ashamed and coming out, living underground, and outside of the system. I had to develop social skills, political skills, to fight for my rights, I had to know the law, the medical system and government policy as it was all needed to get by in life. Now, if was 15 and felt like there was something wrong with me. I can tell my doctor, and my teacher and I can transition with help. Whereas for me it took years to find answers, and help and support. In a way, transgender, as I understand it will be extinct.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Co-Chair – Ministry of Status of Women Sub-Committee of Human Rights, CFUW FCFDU; Vice Chair National Women’s Liberal Commission at Liberal Party of Canada | Parti libéral du Canada; Mentor, Canadian Association for Business Economics.

[2] Individual Publication Date: November 1, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/piercey-two; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Stacey Piercey (Part Two) [Online].November 2018; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/piercey-two.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, November 1). An Interview with Stacey Piercey (Part Two). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/piercey-two.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Stacey Piercey (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, November. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/piercey-two>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Stacey Piercey (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/piercey-two.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Stacey Piercey (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (November 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/piercey-two.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Stacey Piercey (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/piercey-two>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Stacey Piercey (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/piercey-two.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Stacey Piercey (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):November. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/piercey-two>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Stacey Piercey (Part Two) [Internet]. (2018, November; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/piercey-two.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-11-01

An Interview with Hasan Zuberi, M.B.A. (Part Three)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: November 1, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,351

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Hasan Zuberi, M.B.A. is the Chairman for Mensa Pakistan. He discusses: time frame for events; vigorous and respectful debates; the one rule in discussions; keeping debates on topic; punishments for poor behaviour; some interactions Mensa Pakistan members can get in-person but not online; similar interactions online as in person but the interactions are simply better, richer experiences for the participants than online; expansions of Mensa Pakistan’s in-person provisions for the membership; technology and online environments improving in-person experiences; and in-person experiences enhancing experiences in the virtual environments.

Keywords: Hasan Zuberi, Islam, Mensa Pakistan, Muslim, Pakistan.

An Interview with Hasan Zuberi, M.B.A.: Chairman, Mensa Pakistan (Part Three)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: How long is the standard time frame given in the announcement and organization of an event or meeting prior to its coming to fruition?

Hasan Zuberi, M.B.A.: Standard time frame is usually at least 2 weeks, so that the members are well informed in advance and can manage their availability.

2. Jacobsen: How can vigorous, respectful debates on various political, philosophical, mathematical, ethical, scientific, and so on, happen more easily through electronic media?

I ask because, I know, most people, or everybody, experiences – or has experienced – intense and unpleasant debates, or even simply sour dialogues and discussions, on a number of topics. 

Zuberi: Well, simply: Every day, we have a members group on WhatsApp, and there we discuss (not debate) on all topics at hand, be it political, religious, and even social issues. Since it is not a debate, it becomes more engaging and informative.

3. Jacobsen: What seems like reasonable ground rules to set in an online forum to prevent vitriol and maintain respectful communication between the parties involved in them, especially in the cognitively highly capable?

Zuberi: Guess, it’s simply one rule: “Respect others’ opinion.” Senior members, play the role of moderators (if they are not the initiators) and keep the environment to the topic and if there is anything that can be deemed intense, it is politely discouraged.

So far we have not seen getting things out of control, and the credit goes to the fine diversified group of people we have.

4. Jacobsen: In online environments, women and girls get more harassment. Indeed, they receive more harsh criticism and ad hominem attacks, even if their statements remain, functionally in content and tone, the same as a man or a boy – not in all cases but, from qualitative reportage and complaints of women, probably most cases.

Any tips for women and girls, especially the highly gifted and talented to stay on topic, in self-protection of cyberbullying, stalking, and harassment?

Zuberi: Well, if I talk about our circle, it is very much protected and anything below the line can be communicated to the senior management for immediate action. We encourage our female members to speak up, and often appoint, senior female members/or our national psychologist to be at the listening end.

5. Jacobsen: What is the importance of an online moderator in the prevention of these behaviours by many men and boys – or some women and girls?

What seems like the appropriate punishments, reactions, or mechanisms to acquire justice in the cases of legitimate cyberbullying, stalking, and harassment? That is, how can the bullied, stalked, and harassed deal with these individuals?

Zuberi: Well in our system, as stated above, are the senior members, who are on senior and powerful positions and volunteer for the cause, they serve as the elders and advise on issues, referred to them.

Punishments, if required, are mostly related to warning the culprit at first and so far it has been enough just to let members know that Seniors are there to provide all help.

If required further, it can result in suspension and/or expulsion from the organization, and registering a case with Cyber Crime Cell of Federal Investigation Authority (FIA). Fortunately, Pakistan has a very string Cyber Crime Unit, called NR3C.

6. Jacobsen: Now, to the second aspect, the in-person environment has been the main form of interaction of the highly intelligent in a relatively tight locale. What are some interactions Mensa Pakistan members can get in-person but not online?

Zuberi: It is mostly in our meet-ups, and or other SIG activities, which provides a chance for in-person interaction.

7. Jacobsen: What about similar interactions online as in person but the interactions are simply better, richer experiences for the participants than online?

Zuberi: Well, obviously with technology in hands now, it has become easier for everyone to interact online, than offline, so it is normal.

8. Jacobsen: In the future, what would be wonderful expansions of Mensa Pakistan’s in-person provisions for the membership? I mean wildest dreams, wonderful, and dreamy ideas – pie-in-the-sky.

Zuberi: Culturally speaking, in our part of the world, the in-person meetups are still considered formal and respectful. We as a platform, try to provide our members with the opportunity to come, meet their peers, to share their learning and experiences with others, and to learn from each other.

We are also planning to collaborate with other organizations that provide positive learning opportunities, scholarships, activities etc., for our members.

9. Jacobsen: To the third facet, the nature of the interaction between the two. How do technology and online environments improve in-person experiences of the Mensa Pakistan group?

Zuberi: Above all, the technology and online environment has helped us to engage our long-lost old members who have migrated from Pakistan; or left the country for studies, family, work, to connect with the members back home. It also helps to connect and broaden their social networks.

10. Jacobsen: How do in-person experiences provide the basis for enhanced experiences in the virtual environments of the Mensa Pakistan group?

Zuberi: It serves as the basis. People understand others, especially when they meet them and express themselves in person, and in the online environment; it becomes easier to understand their words.

11. Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Hasan.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Chairman, Mensa Pakistan.

[2] Individual Publication Date: November 1, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/zuberi-three; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Hasan Zuberi, M.B.A. (Part Three) [Online].November 2018; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/zuberi-three.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, November 1). An Interview with Hasan Zuberi, M.B.A. (Part Three). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/zuberi-three.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Hasan Zuberi, M.B.A. (Part Three). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, November. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/zuberi-three>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Hasan Zuberi, M.B.A. (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/zuberi-three.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Hasan Zuberi, M.B.A. (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (November 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/zuberi-three.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Hasan Zuberi, M.B.A. (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/zuberi-three>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Hasan Zuberi, M.B.A. (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/zuberi-three.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Hasan Zuberi, M.B.A. (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):November. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/zuberi-three>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Hasan Zuberi, M.B.A. (Part Three) [Internet]. (2018, November; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/zuberi-three.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-11-01

An Interview with Tim Moen (Part Three)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: November 1, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,885

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Tim Moen is the President of the Libertarian Party of Canada. He discusses: attenuation of the loss of an authentic self while in the midst of more, and more, public recognition; tasks and responsibilities come with this station with being the leader of the Libertarian Party of Canada; honest mistakes as a leader; how an elected leader demarcates the vision for the political party and conveys the image to the leader’s constituency; the more heartening experiences in political life; the more disheartening experiences in political life; the primary policy of the Libertarian Party of Canada; egregious examples of government overreach in Canada; model of consent; the individual as the basic unit of society; the bad, the good, and government, individuals, and groups; preventing government from harming society; and sub-clauses to the primary policy.

Keywords: Libertarianism, Libertarian Party of Canada, Tim Moen.

An Interview with Tim Moen: Leader, Libertarian Party of Canada (Part Three)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What attenuates the loss of an authentic self while in the midst of more, and more, public recognition?

Tim Moen: This is actually a huge question that to properly answer would require pages, but I’ll try and be concise.

A few years ago I was disoriented and alone in a structure fire. The heat was rising very quickly and was unbearable and I knew for a fact that I was going to die. Obviously, I made it out, but the man that emerged was not the same man that went in. I realized I had been wasting so much of my time and not devoting time and energy to the things in my life that mattered most to me.

Having a purpose driven life is the most important part of maintaining a sense of self. I don’t just mean having a purpose like winning an election, I mean having a clear understanding of what I want my life to have meant after my time here is done. Combine this sense of purpose with remembering I’m going to die is probably the biggest force that keeps me honest. Sometimes I find myself saying words because it’s the path of least resistance or because I know people will react favourably and having that clear image in my mind of my life ending and what it felt like having left so much undone and allowing others to control my destiny snaps me back to my purpose.

The other prerequisites to staying authentic and grounded are; having a strong degree of self-knowledge, and having a trusted group of friends and family who are willing to help you check your ego.

2. Jacobsen: A purpose to life brings popular mega-church pastor, Rick Warren, to mind, for me. He speaks to purpose in life within a theological framework. Many like him; some don’t. Your experience exists in or out of the theological interpretation, though. A realization of the profound nature of death and the proportional reinvigoration of meaning this imports to life. What practical steps follow from the experience (examples) – for staying grounded, gaining more self-knowledge, and developing a close, trusted group?

You are the leader of the Libertarian Party of Canada. What tasks and responsibilities come with this station?

Moen: My job is to be the public face of the party and to speak on its behalf. I believe its also my job to help discover the vision and strategy of our party with our members and communicate it to our members. Ultimately it is my job to serve the needs of our members and our candidates.

3. Jacobsen: What have been honest mistakes as a leader? How does on confront them, admit them in public, and solve them for better performance in the future? All in the ‘public eye.’ How does a federal political party leader remain on amicable and friendly terms with other federal political party members in spite of differences about desires for the direction of the country?

Moen: I’ve met and enjoyed the company of people of all political persuasions. It is easy to ostracize and divide but I think its more productive to look for common ground and then engage in constructive conflict. It is easy for me to do because most people are libertarians in their private lives. They would never hurt someone or steal from them. Generally speaking, I think we all have the same goals and so as long as we can engage in civil discourse and can agree that we want to achieve the same things then we can have constructive conflict and work our way through the haze of cognitive dissonance together. Doing this requires that you view other people not as combatants to fight but rather as other people who share my goal of having a constructive conversation. If they don’t want to hurt people or take their stuff in their private lives yet they think that winning an election gives them new rights then the problem isn’t that they are bad people wanting to do bad things, the problem is that they are good people being led to do bad things because of a bad mental model or idea. On the other hand, it could be that I have a bad mental model and I would value having that mental model corrected so that I don’t do something bad.

The frame or lens through which we view these conversations with people who have different mental models largely determines how successful the conversation will be. I like to think of poor mental models as mind viruses, they spread and cause otherwise good people to do bad things. I am as susceptible to a mind virus as anyone else and conversations with people who challenge my mental models are valuable because at worst they cause me to ensure I have thought deeply enough about a position I hold to have good reasons for holding it and at best they cause me to change my mind and eliminate a mind virus.

4. Jacobsen: How does an elected leader demarcate the vision for the political party and convey the image to the leader’s constituency? Inspiration remains important for collective action.

Moen: At the end of the day my vision can’t part with the vision of my party or I’m not the right person for the job. I travel around Canada meeting with party members and listening to them and drawing inspiration from them and communicating my vision. I try and communicate why I am involved in the party and what gets me out of bed and motivates me to action. It is something that I’m really passionate about and I don’t think it takes much to motivate or inspire other people. When people see a bit of courage and authenticity that is often all they need to take action themselves.

5. Jacobsen: What have been the more heartening experiences in political life?

Moen: When I see people coming together to work for a common goal and see that we are having an impact on public discourse and culture that is very heartening. Meeting so many passionate and committed people is very motivating. Having earnest conversations with people genuinely interested in the conversation and seeing a mind change as a result of that conversation is very gratifying as well.

6. Jacobsen: What have been the more disheartening experiences in political life?

Moen: The most disheartening experiences are when people are focused on tearing each other down rather than putting aside differences in philosophy and personality for the good of achieving team goals. This is an ongoing problem with libertarians. We are very good at picking apart poor mental models and finding systemic flaws and this strength can turn into a weakness when we fixate on problems rather than focus on solutions. I’ve seen many good people leave in anger. I’ve lost a few people I considered friends because of mistakes I’ve made as a leader. People invest a lot in me as a leader and it really sucks disappointing them.

7. Jacobsen: What is the primary policy of the Libertarian Party of Canada?

Moen: The primary policy of our party is to restrain government from hurting people or taking their stuff and limit its role to protecting individuals. We recognize that government is an institution that has a monopoly on and a mandate to use force and that the only proper use of force is to protect people from the initiatory force (ie murder, assault, rape, theft, fraud). Basically, we think the government should not violate consent and should protect people from violations of consent. People in government don’t get a special exemption from behaving ethically.

8. Jacobsen: What have been egregious examples of government overreach in Canada to you?

Moen: Taxation, the drug war, the growing surveillance state and healthcare stand out as big issues for me. The carbon tax strikes me as particularly horrific in that it is not just confiscating money under threat of force, it is punishing people for consuming the very thing that allows them to survive and flourish. The drug war has ruined lives and created a demand for violent criminals. Bill C-13, Bill C-51 and now the TPP are artefacts of a growing surveillance state that collects data on citizens by invading our private sphere. Our healthcare system is a gigantic point of failure and when it fails the poor and marginalized will be the first to feel the effects.

9. Jacobsen: Within this model of consent, what suffices to amount to consent?

Moen: By consent, I mean the standard legal definition. Consent means that another person should have your permission to enter your private realm. Consent is the difference between lovemaking and rape, or boxing and assault, or charity and taxation. If I tell you that I do not want you to do something to my body or my property and you do it anyways you have clearly violated consent.

10. Jacobsen: With respect to the individual, does the individual form the basic unit of society to you?

Moen: Yes. Society is a group of individuals. Institutions like government are abstract mental models that are often confused as entities that exist in material reality, what really exists are a bunch of individuals acting in accordance with mental models that may or may not lead to otherwise good people doing bad things.

11. Jacobsen: What defines the bad? What defines the good? How can the government increase the good and decrease the bad? How can individuals and groups in society increase the good and decrease the bad?

Moen: “The bad” can be broadly defined as violating consent. “The good” can be broadly defined as that which serves the needs of individuals and leads to flourishing. A proper government can create an environment for the good to emerge if it focuses on its job of protecting individuals from the bad. Humans are generally self-interested and behave in ways that maximize their personal well, being. For the maximum good to emerge it is necessary for the self-interest of an individual be tied to their ability to serve the needs of others and help them flourish. If self-interest is tied to violating consent one would expect the good would have a difficult time emerging and the bad would have an easier time emerging. So a free market where individuals can profit by serving the needs of others seems like the best place for the good to emerge and big government where individuals can profit by violating consent seems like a good place, for the bad to emerge.

12. Jacobsen: Furthermore, how can the government be prevented from harming individual citizens? Of course, no government can be protected from in its entirety. Nothing is full proof.

Moen: Government, as I just pointed out, is an abstraction, not an entity that exists in material reality that can cause harm. If by “government” you mean the specific group of individuals that people imagine have special rights then the question becomes, “how do we prevent these people from harming individual citizens?” To my mind, the answer is to get rid of the demand for a group of individuals to use force in immoral ways. The demand for a government that imposes on individuals comes from a lack of understanding of governments proper function and comes from a place of fear. At the end of the day, people the demand government action because they don’t see it as immoral and they are frightened of some particular hobgoblin and so they demand a government that alleviates their anxiety. So to prevent the government from harming individual citizens is a bit like getting drug dealers to stop harming drug users. Ultimately the problem would largely go away if the addiction was treated. So I see this as a very similar process to treating addiction. There is no legislative lever that will protect people from the government without a will from people for it to happen. Constitutions, bills, charters of rights are helpful insofar as citizens understand them and inscribe these principles on their hearts and minds but they are only pieces of paper with ink if people don’t embrace them. If people don’t believe in or want the government to be limited then it won’t…no matter what.

13. Jacobsen: What derivative policies, which have details and acts as sub-clauses to the primary policy, follow from the primary policy?

Moen: Since all law represents threats of violence for non-compliance our goal is to limit laws to only those that protect individuals. This means that activity between consenting adults that doesn’t harm anybody else should not be interfered with by threats of violence, even by people in government. So as an example we would repeal prohibitions on drug use and sex work.

Another area the government overreaches with force is on the financial lives of citizens. Taking money forcibly (or through threats of force) ought to be limited or eliminated. This means we want to dramatically reduce or eliminate taxation and find non-coercive ways to fund the government and eliminate all non-necessary government departments and spending. We also take issue with onerous regulation on individuals owning and running businesses and working for businesses. Raising the bar to enter the marketplace creates an unfair advantage to crony capitalists at the expense of consumers and start-up entrepreneurs.

We also want to improve property rights. Property rights give individuals immediate access to justice and dispute resolution. This includes our comprehensive policy on indigenous sovereignty which gives indigenous people sovereignty over their territory and allows them to push back against government appropriation of resources on their property and allows them to develop or not develop resources in a manner that is determined by them.

Our military is there to protect Canadians and not as a proxy for US imperialism or UN “Peace Keeping”. We would ensure our military isn’t used for a political agenda but to establish Canadian sovereignty and particularly to find ways of ensuring our Arctic sovereignty is established and protected.

A key element of liberty is the ability to exclude others from your private realm and so we would eliminate warrantless spying, repeal Bill C-51 and C-13, and the TPP in whole or in part.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Leader, Libertarian Party of Canada.

[2] Individual Publication Date: November 1, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/moen-three; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Tim Moen (Part Three) [Online].November 2018; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/moen-three.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, November 1). An Interview with Tim Moen (Part Three). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/moen-three.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Tim Moen (Part Three). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, November. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/moen-three>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Tim Moen (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/moen-three.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Tim Moen (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (November 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/moen-three.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Tim Moen (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/moen-three>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Tim Moen (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/moen-three.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Tim Moen (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):November. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/moen-three>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Tim Moen (Part Three) [Internet]. (2018, November; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/moen-three.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-11-01

An Interview with Dr. Madeline Weld (Part Two)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: October 22, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,882

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Dr. Madeline Weld is President of Population Institute Canada. She discusses: impact on policy from religion; consequences of blocking family planning; efforts to reduce women’s ability to make informed choices; the most stunning fact about demographics and birth rates; and if we ruin the planet, will we Disnify it (?).

Keywords: Madeline Weld, Population Institute Canada, president.

An Interview with Dr. Madeline Weld: President, Population Institute Canada (Part Two)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: When I think about something mentioned at the start of the conversation, it was the impact of some religious organizations, sometimes quite big, who stand against family planning. One of them tends to be the Roman Catholic Church.

The largest religious segment of Canadian society is Roman Catholicism. How does this impact policy?

Dr. Madeline Weld: Roman Catholics in countries with birth control access do not listen to the Vatican. Because Catholics in Canada use birth control and abortion at the same rate as everyone else. But, historically, I do not think there is any other organization that has caused more damage…

Jacobsen: …wow…

Weld: …to the population movement than the Vatican, which is a political organization. I look at it as a political organization intent on its own preservation rather than a spiritual organization. When the UN was being formed after WWII, the head of the World Health Organization was a Canadian named Brock Chisholm, a Canadian humanist.

He was in favour of family planning. He thought overpopulation would be a problem. He wanted to make family planning part of the WHO’s umbrella services, like child immunization, and so on. The Vatican got together a group of Catholic countries and they said that they would withdraw from the UN if this happened.

They bullied the WHO into dropping family planning from their agenda. This is described by Milton Siegel, who was the second to the chair or the vice-chair of the WHO [he was Deputy Director]– and who attended every meeting, as something they simply dropped as a topic.

The Catholic Church for all environmental things; it has been consistent in opposing family planning. The president of Ceylon now Sri Lanka was concerned about overpopulation: on his small island.

The Vatican was at the conference in Rio de Janeiro in 1992 [UN Conference on Environment and Development] also got family planning off the agenda. Then the Cairo conference in 1994: The International Conference on Population and Development had both the Vatican and the progressive feminists being against population control.

They talked about racism, colonialism, and so on. They talked about people freely and responsibly choosing the size of their family. But they did not speak about a woman living in a pro-natalist country, where her religion, mother-in-law, and husband say that she must have a lot of kids.

By not initiating any programs or ideas for programs for governments to take for this sort of thing, it fell by the wayside. The amount of money for family planning as a percentage of total population assistance fell dramatically. It went to AIDS.

The point is the Vatican interfered a lot [Laughing]. I do not think there is any organization in the UN that did more damage. We have the Organization of the Islamic Cooperation, which is 56 Islamic countries plus the Palestinian Authority.

I am not sure how supportive they will be of family planning. They are a powerful block. I agree that religion [Laughing] does not help with family planning. In Canada and all over Europe, even Spain and Italy, they do not listen to the Vatican. Spain and Italy have some of the lowest birth rates in Europe.

Jacobsen: However, this came from the secularization of the organization of the outside rather than from the inside.

Weld: Yes, I think women benefitted from the secularization of society with more freedom and so on. There is a reform movement in the Catholic Church too. There is a strong contingent of pro-choice people in the Catholic Church too.

Jacobsen: I did an interview with the president of Catholics for Choice.

Weld: A lot of Catholic women disagree with the Catholic anti-abortion stance. There was a commission in the Catholic church to look at their stance on family planning. They had 56 lay people and 16 clergy representatives looking at it. [FYI: This was Pope Paul VI’s Pontifical Commission on Birth Control, which produced its report in 1966: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontifical_Commission_on_Birth_Control. And there were 56, not 54 laypeople on it.]

They were supposed to see whether changing the Vatican’s stance on abortion would harm the organization and whether the Vatican should do it. The commission looked at it, decided it would (harm the authority of the Vatican), but said it is the right thing to do anyway.

Basically, all the lay people agreed to it. 9 out of the 16 clergy representatives agreed that the Catholic Church should change its stance. A dissenting decision was made that if the Catholic Church changed its stance then it would look like the Holy Spirit would not have been guiding the Catholic Church all along.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Weld: But it has been instead with the Protestant groups, where birth control was okay.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Weld: What was a mortal sin would now be okay, it could not do that. Guess, who wrote much of the dissenting opinion? Karol Wojtyla who later became Pope John Paull II. It prevailed, the dissenting opinion. That is an unfortunate thing. [https://epdf.tips/the-catholic-church-on-marital-intercourse-from-st-paul-to-pope-john-paul-ii.html]

There were two times when birth control could come into the fore. One was when the UN was formed with the WHO led by Brock Chisholm and another was when the Catholic Church looked to reform on birth control positions. Neither happened.

2. Jacobsen: Now, I look at this as one of those ethical splits. One from a transcendentalist traditionalist religious perspective on the source of ethics. Another on international secular human rights. When I look at those things, I recall Human Rights Watch stating equitable and safe access to abortion is primarily a human right.

Of course, it lists the consequences of not providing the safe and equitable access to abortion. So, if some of these religious organizations and some progressive feminist groups are blocking family planning and potentially abortion too, what are the consequences of doing this for women?

Weld: They are higher abortion rates. If women cannot use birth control, a bunch will seek abortions, and if illegal then illegal abortions, which means an increased rate of abortions and an increased rate of deaths from illegal abortions.

I can understand but do not agree with being anti-abortion. But if you are anti-abortion, then you should be pro-birth control, right [Laughing]?

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Weld: Some people think women should not have those rights. I do not see why a sensible person would be against birth control.

Jacobsen: We have come to the same conclusion. If someone is pro-life in a strict and realistic sense, they should be pro-choice because the consequences would be pro-infant life, pro-maternal life, and pro-human right.

Weld: Right. I think the most awful case that made the news was this woman from India, who was in Ireland. Her fetus was dying. It was not viable. But the Irish doctors refused to abort because they were terrified at the time that the Irish draconian laws of the time may make them go to prison if they perform it.

The woman died because by the time the fetal heartrate died; she died of septicemia. It was a sad story. That was about five years ago. I forget when. Because Irish abortion laws were voted to be changed very recently.

3. Jacobsen: Now, in open societies in Karl Popper’s terms, such as Canada, the notion of the restriction of women’s bodily autonomy through various legal or fundamentalist religious measures cannot be done or, at least, as easily.

So, the people who try to do that or want to do that – and, to be frank, some people probably want that in this country – must work through coercion and culture.

Do you note any attempts within the culture or arguments made socially/culturally to either guilt women or shame women, or talk women, into being against contraception – trying to reduce their ability to make proper and informed choices about family planning?

Weld: I know in Ottawa the Morgentaler Clinic prevented people from demonstrating in front of the clinic. It is not advertised. You cannot tell looking at it from the outside. They cannot protest with 50 metres now.

That is some protection. There are organizations. I see their ads on the bus, advertising to pregnant women. Something like Melinda House or Maryam House, where you can go and have your baby. They have outreach.

They try to discourage abortions by women. I do not know of any attempts. The Catholic Church is always preaching against it. But I do not know of any coercive attempts. I do not know if they can without breaking the law. But they try.

They try to influence their legislatures and stuff like that. It is entrenched in Canada, though. Maybe, they can limit it to a certain number of weeks. I do not think even Henry Morgentaler did abortions after 22 weeks; unless there was a medical cause to do it.

I do not think they are going to give up. I think they have a pretty good turnout at their pro-life rallies in Ottawa. But they bus all the high school kids there. They beef it up [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing] something heard by me. The idea, “What will you do after you’re 35? What will you do in the latter part of your life? Oh, don’t worry, you’ll change.” These said to women.

These to negatively associate singlehood or non-motherhood, and to get them to have children or get married and have children. Tiny guilt and shaming tactics over time. They may not be conscious of it.

Weld: People, in general, or humans are pro-child. I think it is natural to want children for a lot of people. But people must make their own decisions. If life is too complicated, I know that more women now who are trying to freeze their eggs – or have their kids later in life.

Sure, they have a right to do so. But from my perspective, imagine looking after a toddler when you are 45 or something, I have two sons. They are 31 and 29. I was 31/32 and 34 when I had my kids. I am glad I had my youngish energy to chase around after them.

Because your energy levels decrease as you get older. You might have a rebellious teenager when you are 60 [Laughing]. Right now, I am 63 and independent. My kids have moved out and have their own life. The freedom is great.

It is something that people want to consider when they put off having their kids. They will be looking after kids into their old age. Do they want to be doing that? Of course, you will not see your grandchildren if you have huge distances between the generations.

Anyway, I think society must figure it out. Given that we have so many people already, I think small families is a good thing. The longer you wait then the less the population is, because parents do not die instantly when they have kids.

I am thinking in terms of biological realities. There might be an optimum-maximum age. There was a case of an Italian woman. She had a kid when she was 65. It was a few years ago. It made the news. I thought, “Why would you do that?”

Jacobsen: Did she have any kids prior?

Weld: I do not recall. You can read cases of old women or an old woman who want to have kids. It is weird.

4. Jacobsen: What is the single most stunning fact about demographics and birth rates, and so on, encountered in your entire career, even post-retirement included? 

Weld: I guess that there are 1 billion more people every 12 years. It is 9 zeroes. It is stunning. Since 9:58, my time, this morning, 13,319 more people have been added to the world. That is the net increase since I have been sitting at this computer.

So, in an hour and a half, we have thirteen and a half thousand new people, which is a lot.

Jacobsen: Is it considering the deaths?

Weld: Yes, it is births minuses deaths. We have this population clock on the website. I guess that is the most stunning fact. Also, humans have taken over 2/3rds of the land surface of the Earth for their uses and only the parts that are difficult to get to are a little safe from us.

It raises the question, “Do we want to turn the planet into a feed lot for humanity? If so, why?”

5. Jacobsen: Will we Disnify the planet if we ruin it?

Weld: I think we are to a degree. I think we delude ourselves if we think we are in control. If the soils are impoverished and cannot support high-yielding plants, and if the rivers are depleted if the aquifers are depleted and it is happening, what will we do now?

They are trying to breed plants that do not require much water. But we are always scrambling to solve some other problem. It is always something. The increase in food production has slowed down. There is always a maximum that can be produced.

It cannot be done forever. A lot of our food production depends on cheap fertilizer, which depends on oil; as the price of oil increases, the price of fertilizer will increase. We should limit our numbers before things naturally self-limit and make things unpleasant for us and other animals.

We could be a blip. It happened when the meteor wiped the dinosaurs out. Why would we do this to ourselves? Why would we cause this transformation and this depletion when we can avoid doing it?

Jacobsen: Because intelligence may be a lethal mutation as per the words of Noam Chomsky.

Weld: [Laughing] Yes, I think that is true.

Jacobsen: Alan Watts used to joke – the Eastern scholar from the 60s-70s – about what if the eventual state of a species is to produce a new star by discovering nuclear energy and then blowing themselves up.

Weld: [Laughing].

Jacobsen: Of course, he was being facetious. But what if?

Weld: Yes.

Jacobsen: It is similar what if in a concrete sense of our intelligence allowing us to manipulate the environment very well and over a short, brief time – a “blip” as you noted.

Weld: I think we need to develop a new ethics called Ecological Ethics that have been promoted for a while now. Because most ethics only consider human to human interactions. I think we need to consider that we are part of a bigger system and what we are doing to our support system, ecological system.

I think that may be done willy-nilly because it will happen whether we like it or not.

That is my hope anyway.

6. Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Dr. Weld.

Weld: Thanks for the interview, Scott.

Jacobsen: That was a lot of fun.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] President, Population Institute Canada.

[2] Individual Publication Date: November 1, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/weld-two; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Dr. Madeline Weld (Part Two) [Online].November 2018; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/weld-two.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, November 1). An Interview with Dr. Madeline Weld (Part Two). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/weld-two.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Dr. Madeline Weld (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, November. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/weld-two>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Dr. Madeline Weld (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/weld-two.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Dr. Madeline Weld (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (November 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/weld-two.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Dr. Madeline Weld (Part Two)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/weld-two>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Dr. Madeline Weld (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/weld-two.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Dr. Madeline Weld (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):November. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/weld-two>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Dr. Madeline Weld (Part Two) [Internet]. (2018, November; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/weld-two.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-11-01

An Interview with Nsajigwa I Mwasokwa (Nsajigwa Nsa’sam)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 1.A, Idea: African Freethinking

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: African Freethinker

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: November 1, 2018

Issue Publication Date: TBD

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,781

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Nsajigwa I Mwasokwa (Nsajigwa Nsa’sam) is the Founder of Jichojipya/ThinkAnew. He discusses: Tanzanian culture; atheist as viewed by the genera Tanzanian public; the commonality of atheism in Tanzania; the great atheist Tanzanian thinker; the great atheist Tanzanian book; biases and prejudices against the atheist community in Tanzania; biases in law; and final thoughts.

Keywords: Jichojipya, Nsajigwa I Mwasokwa, Nsajigwa Nsa’sam, Tanzania, ThinkAnew.

An Interview with Nsajigwa I Mwasokwa (Nsajigwa Nsa’sam): Founder, Jichojipya/ThinkAnew[1],[2],[3]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

*Originally published in Canadian Atheist.*

Nsajigwa I Mwasokwa (Nsajigwa Nsa’sam) founded Jichojipya (meaning with new eye) to “Think Anew”. He is among the best read – on primary freethinking and humanist sources – African freethinkers known to me.

We have talked before about freethought in Tanzania. They have an in-development YouTube channel here. Some grassroots activism here. Some work or organizations with activism and cultural exchange here: Galimoto’Kali, Sisi Kwa Sisi (Facebook/LinkedIn/Twitter/Felix Ntinda).

Nsajigwa has been interviewed here. We conducted other interviews/publications in Blogogate here, Canadian Atheist here, here, here, and here, in The Good Men Project here, here, here, here, here, here, here, and in Humanist Voices here and here, Tanzania Today here, and Tech2 here.

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, you’re out in Tanzania. That is far removed from the normal life of Canadians. What is something that those in Canada are almost certainly not likely to know about atheism in Tanzania but they should?

Nsajigwa I Mwasokwa (Nsajigwa Nsa’sam): Thank you I am Mr. Nsajigwa, Canadians should know that as it is for every human society throughout ages and generations that there have been within independent thinkers and freethinkers, so too there are such ones in Tanzania, though few, as it has hitherto been.

There are Tanzanians who think outside of the box of religiosity despite the fact that in Africa religion is overwhelmingly omnipresent and -potent, covering all aspects of life, from the birth point of entrance to death point of exit. In past, Africans were said to “Think emotionally” and being more “spiritual” as a philosophy of Negritude would assert, “rational is Greece as emotion is black.” Maybe today, we might just understand that to have been too much of a generalization.

In terms of percentage, it is recorded that independent thinkers individuals living without religion in Tanzania could be up to 1% of the population (the challenge is to make it rise to 10% as there might be enough such ones who however are in the closet).

2. Jacobsen: How is atheism viewed by the general public in Tanzania?

Nsajigwa: In the past, it was associated with socialism of communism brand, the USSR type, thus ideological.

But also by Tanzanians who are fundamentalist in their religious outlook, they view it negatively, as an arrogant rebellion against God’s will by the few people educated (to become confused) by too much secular book reading. Further extremes view it as for those who are “lost” and on Satan’s side (Satan being the opposite of good God).

3. Jacobsen: How common is atheism there?

Nsajigwa: As a movement it is coming up, emerging as is the reality of it all over Africa. Some individual independent thinkers to freethinkers exist, it’s only recently since new millennium that there have emerged some pioneer efforts to teach it by philosophy, identify and bring such individuals together.

I am the pioneer number one for this philosophy, life-stance here since the mid-1990s before the arrival of the internet in Tanzania. We are developing a fellowship to be a community in the future via Jichojipya – Think Anew as a formal organization and vehicle for that, we founded it to live to achieve common goals of institutionalizing Humanism ideas and ideals guided by Humanist’s Amsterdam Declaration 2002 of which I translated into Swahili that being first time that it was in an African language. Its Humanistic aspects happen to be similar to some aspects of Tanzanian own Arusha declaration doctrine of 1967.

4. Jacobsen: If you could pick one great atheist thinker in Tanzania, who would it be?

Nsajigwa: It would be an eminent elder retired public figure named Kingunge Ngombale-Mwilu. We identified him as one because he was the public figure, only one known throughout to swear for a public position (he has served since independence in top ranking positions even as a minister of state) without holding Bible or Quran.

That is, how we suspected him to be a nonbeliever and on interviewing him recently he came out as such, a freethinker who is Agnostic (though our society thought of him as a socialist communist). He told us himself he became freethinker inspired by reading the subject of Philosophy including the writings of Thomas Paine and Ludwig Feuerbach in his analysis that;- “it’s not god creating man in his own image but rather a man creating God in his imagination.”

Another longtime freethinker would be Nsajigwa (me myself) a self-taught individual operating at the grassroots. I have taught and inspired many enough by my knowledge (book reading) and my own everyday life as a freethinker, someone living ethically good without a religion.

5. Jacobsen: If you could take one great atheist book in Tanzania, what would it be?

Nsajigwa: There is no one whole book on that, however, there are particular stories on some books say by one late Agoro Anduru – a good writer that he was. Also stories (in Swahili) by one Mohamed Salum Abdalla (in short Bwana Msa) and speeches by Mwalimu (Swahili for a teacher) Nyerere – Tanzanian founder father, teaching, insisting and reminding on several occasions that Tanzania is a secular state.

6. Jacobsen: What are some of the prejudices and biases that the atheist community experiences in Tanzania?

Nsajigwa: Basically so far organized atheist community is just emerging, we few freethinkers are just pioneering to bring it out but judging from our personal life experience, our social milieu is such that to be a nonbeliever you are misunderstood in many ways and judged negatively, its something you just have to endure, too much pressure and frictions to confront right from the family level. African culture is “communitarian” in outlook, wanting conformity to all its members. Things should be done as traditions and what religions require. On religion itself, it is very influential, plus our political culture is illiberal, yes we are a peaceful Nation since independence but skepticism and criticism are not tolerated despite the fact we became a multiparty democracy since 1992.

7. Jacobsen: What are some of the biases in law that are explicitly anti-atheist or, at a minimum, tacitly so?

Nsajigwa: The founder father Mwalimu Nyerere was, fortunately, a good student of John Stuart Mills philosophy “on liberty”. He made it clear the fact that our Nation is secular though people (including himself) are in religions. There is a temptation though from various players to wish that religion should penetrate more into government because people and their leaders are religious anyway. In Zanzibar, a semi-autonomous government with a majority of its population (90%+) being Moslem, Islamic laws applies (via what are known as kadhi courts) in dealing with matters of inheritance, marriage, and divorce.

8. Jacobsen: Any final feelings or thoughts?

Nsajigwa: We live in modern times yet we have not yet successfully modernized our cultures and societies.The need to secularize our outlook to life, thus STEM (Science Technology Engineering and (rationalism of) Mathematics) Project. We by Jichojipya – Think Anew a Tanzanian Freethinkers secularist humanists organization here initiated a GalimotoCar making STEM project from the grassroots, we need support to continue doing that, a fight against superstition believes including Albino killings.
There is modern African triple heritage concept by which in Tanzanian case, Islam, Christian, and Traditionalists are almost one-third each by percentage (35-35-30 respectively), though there is much dominance of the first two in the public while the third (tradition believes) are somehow dormant, activated only when everything else fails to work.

By SWOT approach most African countries Tanzania included are illiberal. In such situations, independent thinking and freethinking are thwarted and such individuals live to endure hard life mentally (psychologically) and physically. Freethinking Atheism Humanism in Africa should mean an idea to emancipate Africans from illiberality and concurrently from the mental slavery of religions that have evolved to become dysfunctional, as they shape ideas of superstition and wishful thinking that support dogma, irrationality, and fatalism.

It’s a herculean task needed to be met to push the cause of African renaissance and its enlightenment. All due support by Freethinkers Humanists from other parts of the world (Canada etc) is needed, to sustain this work for modernism by secularism in Africa, Tanzania inclusively. That is the historic generational duty for humanity. Thank you.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Founder, Jichojipya/ThinkAnew.

[2] Individual Publication Date: November 1, 2018: www.in-sightjournal.com/nsasam.

[3] Image Credits: Nsajigwa I Mwasokwa (Nsajigwa Nsa’sam).

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Nsajigwa I Mwasokwa (Nsajigwa Nsa’sam) [Online].November 2018; 1(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/nsasam.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, November 1). An Interview with Nsajigwa I Mwasokwa (Nsajigwa Nsa’sam). Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/nsasam.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Nsajigwa I Mwasokwa (Nsajigwa Nsa’sam).  African Freethinker. 1.A, November. 2018. <www.in-sightjournal.com/nsasam>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Nsajigwa I Mwasokwa (Nsajigwa Nsa’sam).” African Freethinker. 1.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/nsasam.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Nsajigwa I Mwasokwa (Nsajigwa Nsa’sam).” African Freethinker. 1.A (November 2018). www.in-sightjournal.com/nsasam.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Nsajigwa I Mwasokwa (Nsajigwa Nsa’sam)‘, African Freethinker, vol. 1.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/nsasam>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Nsajigwa I Mwasokwa (Nsajigwa Nsa’sam)‘, African Freethinker, vol. 1.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/nsasam.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Nsajigwa I Mwasokwa (Nsajigwa Nsa’sam).” African Freethinker 1.A (2018):November. 2018. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/nsasam>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Nsajigwa I Mwasokwa (Nsajigwa Nsa’sam) [Internet]. (2018, November; 1(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/nsasam.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and African Freethinker by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and African Freethinker 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and African Freethinker with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-11-01

An Interview with Roslyn Mould

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 1.A, Idea: African Freethinking

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: African Freethinker

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: November 1, 2018

Issue Publication Date: TBD

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 5,685

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Roslyn Mould is the Former President of the Humanist Association of Ghana and Chair of the African Working Group (IHEYO). She discusses: early life; de-conversion; education; becoming an activist; influence from parents and siblings; early partnerships in becoming an activist; being a progressive; other beliefs implied by progressivism; adopting a socially progressive worldview; its importance; the best socio-political position for Ghana; tasks and responsibilities with HAG; teaching critical thinking in Ghana; teaching modern scientific ideas; barriers to teaching critical thinking and modern scientific ideas; the positives and negatives of religion in Ghana and Africa; obstacles of the social-progressive movements; the importance of social movements; meaning of elected positions; personal heroes within culture; favourite scientific discovery; philosophers; anti-scientific representatives in Ghana; anti-scientific and anti-humanistic movements in Ghana; external help; and humanism and the status of women.

Keywords: African Working Group, Chair, Former President, Humanist Association of Ghana, Roslyn Mould.

An Interview with Roslyn Mould: Vice President, Humanist Association of Ghana; Chair, African Working Group (IHEYO) [1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

*Originally published in Conatus News.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: You grew up as a Catholic. You went to Holy Child School, Cape Coast as well. What is your story as a youth growing up in a religious household? What was the experience?

Roslyn Mould: I attended Catholic schools, St. Theresa’s School in Accra from primary, junior high school and in Holy Child School I got my Senior high school education. They were one of the best schools at the time and provided us with the best teachers in all subjects. The major criteria for admissions was to be a Catholic and I was baptised at the St. Theresa’s Parish so it was easier for me to gain admission. In primary school, we had ‘Worship service’ on Wednesday mornings as part of our curriculum and from 1st grade, we were read the Bible and taught to understand it.

In the beginning, I did not really understand it, especially when it came to topics on the afterlife since my mother had died when I was 4 years old and I had still not come to understand the concept of death by then. I must have tried to discuss the existence of God once to my classmates, but I was told that I could go mad (mentally ill) so I stopped. I then made it a point to understand and accept Christianity because I felt that everyone believed in it and it was the right thing to do. By 6th grade, I attended catechism classes and had received my First Holy Communion.

My Senior High School was an all-girls boarding School and was built by the Catholic church in a town called Cape Coast in the Central Region of Ghana in 1946. It had been run initially by British nuns for decades and later by alumni of the school. It was strict and aimed to form students into ‘women of substance’ who would grow up to be the best in the country at home as good wives, at work, and in the Catholic church.

Obedience, discipline, and morality were the core teachings there with religion and especially Catholicism at its core. It was compulsory for all students to attend Mass at least 3 times a week and observe ‘The Angelus’ prayer’ 3 times a day. Most of the students were Catholic, but we had Anglicans and Protestants of various denominations as well. I became more exposed to Christian Charismatic teachings, joined nondenominational prayer groups and underwent a period of ‘being born-again’, which cemented my belief on God. It was there I had my ‘Confirmation of the Holy Spirit’.

Due to my mother’s death, I was brought up partly by my mother’s family and later by my dad’s. My mother’s family is mostly Catholic and conservative who encouraged and supported me to be a good Christian and was proud of me whenever I hit a milestone in my religious life. My father’s side of the family is mostly Anglican and also went to church often, but were more liberal and reformed.

I was encouraged there to think for myself and I learnt to care for myself and my sister at an early age since there was no mother-figure and my dad was not really ‘there’ either. Staying at my dad’s, my sister and I grew up with lots of books and educational programs on satellite TV, which at the time was expensive for most homes to have. As my mother’s side taught me to be obedient and subservient in their understanding of being respectful, my father’s side of the family encouraged me to ask questions and express myself freely.

2. Jacobsen: You de-converted and became an atheist in 2007. What were the major reasons, arguments, evidence, and experiences for the de-conversion?

Mould: I had finished University where I acquired my BA in Linguistics and Modern Languages and I had made lots of friends in the expat community. At the time, I had come to realise that I had certain views such as feminism that a lot of Ghanaian men were not interested in due to cultural and religious reasons so I seemed to connect well with foreigners. Dating a Serbo-Croatian then, I became familiar with the Eastern European community in the Capital, Accra.

I came to realise that most of them were non-religious as most people from Europe tend to be including my partner although they were baptised in the Orthodox church. I also started to notice that whenever I made religious statements, there would be a short awkward silence and a change in topic. I felt then that I was not doing my job properly as a Christian if I could not teach them about the Word of God and pass on the teachings of Christ. It was at this juncture that I set on a personal course to do objective research on the origins and importance of religion, especially Christianity, in order to properly inform my friends about it. We had Satellite TV then as well so I gave more attention to programs on channels like the HISTORY channel, which at the time showed objective documentaries on the life and times of Jesus Christ and the origins of the Bible.

This was eye-opening because all my life, I had watched the same type of movies and documentaries which were shown every Sunday and especially on Christian Holidays, but those ones had certain relevant information left out of it and they also did not give archaeologically documented information so came my first ‘shocks’. I also watched the Discovery and National Geographic channels for scientific documentaries on evolution the possibilities of life on other planets and these baffled me further because I had been taught to believe in only Creationism and I did not know there was another way of explaining how humans exist. At that point, I had not gotten any information to preach with and I had no one to talk to about my findings.

I went through stages of grief, disappointment, sadness, anger, and finally stopped going to church. Even when I stopped going to church I felt that God would strike me with lightning for disobeying him or ‘betraying’ him, but as time went by and nothing bad seemed to happen, my fear lessened. I did not know how to explain it to my family and friends. So for years, I kept my non-belief to myself and gave excuses for not attending church and sometimes hoped that I could be proven wrong with my non-belief so I could go back to worshipping God but that time never came.

3. Jacobsen: You studied French at the University of Ghana for a Bachelor’s degree in Linguistics and Modern Languages (French and Spanish). Was this education assistive in personal and professional pursuits during postsecondary education and post-graduation?

Mould: Yes, it was. Actually, at the time, the University of Ghana did not give much room for choice by students. They mostly took subjects you excelled in from High School and gave you subjects in that field to study and since I passed exceptionally in English, French and Geography, I was given the Language subjects. I grew to enjoy Linguistics which was a social science program and it interested me greatly as its history taught me a lot about who we are as humans and how far we have come in terms of communication in our development as a species.

I studied various courses in pragmatics, phonetics, syntax, linguistics in Ga (my local language) and Linguistics in English. In Spanish, history and literature formed a big part of our studies and French grammar as well. As Ghana is the only Anglophone country in Africa completely neighboured by Francophone Countries, it became integral that I learnt it as it could get me a long way in the job market although I never really used it much in my career. It came in handy in translating for visiting clients, contractors. I loved studying Spanish for the love of it and linguistics helped me in my career as an administrator in creating and reviewing company documents. I speak 3 local languages and knowing 3 more foreign languages came in handy in my social life meeting people from all over the world.

4. Jacobsen: How did you become an activist?

Mould: I became active in activism after joining the Humanist Association of Ghana. I gained confidence to ‘come out’ then as atheist and I wanted to help share what I knew now just as I was as a Christian but this time, based on evidence. I also realised how religion was destroying my country and continent due to ignorance, lack of education, and human rights abuses, and I felt I had to do something to help change things for the better. I felt that if I knew of an alternative to the dogmatic teachings I was given, I might have been atheist earlier and maybe, I could give someone else the opportunity to be a freethinker, which I was never given.

5. Jacobsen: Were parents or siblings an influence on this for you?

Mould: My family had no idea that I would turn out to be atheist/humanist. I used to know that my uncle (father’s brother) who moved to the USA over 40 years ago was a deist by then, but never got the opportunity to discuss it with him until now. My sister’s godmother was also a German atheist, but it was never discussed perhaps because I felt it would be rude.

My sister left the Catholic church to become an Evangelical youth prayer group member while I was turning atheist. It was not until 2 years later that she became atheist. Even though we are so close and tell each other everything, it wasn’t until 3 years after her de-conversion that I got to hear about her story during a HAG group meeting. I definitely had no influence from Family. The best they helped was by giving me a good education and logical reasoning skills.

6. Jacobsen: Did you have early partnerships in this activist pursuit? If so, whom?

Mould: Not really. I did not know about humanism until after I joined the Freethought Ghana group from which HAG came. Once I was introduced to it and I was able to recognise that humanism describes my personal philosophy of life, I began to identify as a humanist. The group then organised the 1st ever West African Humanist Conference in 2012 and after learning what steps other groups across the West African region were taking, we started to realise the importance of organising and formalising our group from a social group to an activist group.

The conference also gave the group the opportunity to meet other groups and their representatives that are working on humanitarian projects on human rights activism such as now Minister for Gender, Children and Social Protection, Honourable Mrs. Nana Oye Lithur who spoke to us on the LGBT situation in Ghana at the time, Mr. Gyekye Tanoh of 3rd World Women’s rights group, Mr. Leo Igwe a renowned African humanist from Nigeria who was then doing his research in Ghana on Witchcraft accusations in the Northern region for his PhD in Germany and other humanist groups from Liberia, Sierra Leone, and Nigeria. They gave us an insight on what they had been doing and gave us ideas from which HAG was inspired to join in.

7. Jacobsen: Do you consider yourself a progressive?

Mould: Yes, I do. I am of the view that as a humanist who bases her ideas and decisions on logical reasoning and human value, I have had to rethink a lot of negative dogmatic beliefs, superstitions, and culture. I believe that Ghana, and Africa as a whole, is knee deep in ignorance and social dogma, and that is why we remain undeveloped for the most part. I love my country and my people of various tribes and cultures and for that, the need to create a better future for our next generations urges me on to fight age-old systems that stagnate our progress as a people.

8. Jacobsen: Does progressivism logically imply other beliefs, or tend to or even not at all?

Mould: Progressivism, in my opinion, has not got to do with any belief in the supernatural or deities. There has been no proof of that and so moving forward for me, would mean totally discarding those beliefs and critically thinking of ways people can create better systems of living as a civilised nation that takes into account the responsibility of the well-being of its people.

However, I personally believe also that people have their right to association as enshrined in our constitution and therefore, need to have their rights respected but monitored so that its members and the general public are not badly affected by negative religious practices that would infringe on their rights. Rather, the religious can also be freethinkers with progressive views using religion as their source of inspiration.

9. Jacobsen: How did you come to adopt a socially progressive worldview?

Mould: Personally, I have always been progressive since I was young. I was a member of the Wildlife club and Girl Guide Association since Junior High School and in Senior High School, I became President of the Wildlife Club of my school as well as held the position of Public Relations Officer of the Student & Youth Travel Organisation (SYTO) in 2002. With these organisations, I advocated for the rights of animals and the plight of near-extinct species, the rights of girls, participated in various donations and awareness campaigns such as HIV/AIDS and Breast Cancer.

I believe that becoming atheist made me more aware of my passions and my part to play in advocacy and the promotion of human rights based on the realisation that there is no one and no god to help us other than ourselves as people.

10. Jacobsen: Why do you think that adopting a social progressive outlook is important?

Mould: It is very important since our lives and our well-being depend on the environment and the kind of society we are in. Having bad cultural practices, harmful traditions, and laws could lead us backwards rather than providing us with a bright future for ourselves and the next generations around the world. I have grown to witness and live with hearing cases of child abuse at homes and in schools, seeing child trafficking on my streets, the handicapped begging, the mentally ill left naked to roam the streets, people dying of diseases that could have been prevented or cured, the loss of trust in policing and the judicial system and the effects of bad governance, bribery, and corruption on a populace.

People are growing ever so desperate that they are falling for the con of others using religion as a means of using them for their sexual perverted desires and money. Poverty is driving people to abandon their loved ones or accuse their own mothers of witchcraft in order for them to be put to death or banished from their communities for life. It is important that we do away with these in our societies as we have come to know better and rather look to our past which in the Akan language has a term called “Sankofa” which teaches us to learn from our past to build a better tomorrow.

11. Jacobsen: As a progressive, what do you think is the best socio-political position to adopt in the Ghana?

Mould: A major investment into Ghana’s educational system and the review of our school curriculum. Almost all government and private schools are influenced or owned by religious institutions and they dictate what should and should not be taught to our children. It is in schools that major indoctrination starts and stifles freethinking in children. It is also there that teachers are given a right to beat up children to enforce ‘god’s will’ of the “spare the rod, spoil the child’ culture. If our educational system is revamped as our 1st President, Osagyefo Dr. Kwame Nkrumah, a humanist himself, started and envisioned it to be, Ghana could have a well-educated and empowered workforce to develop the country in all the other sectors.

I attended the first University built by Osagyefo Dr. Kwame Nkrumah, The University of Ghana.

12. Jacobsen: You became a member of the Humanist Association of Ghana (HAG) in 2012. You helped organised the first ever West African Humanist Conference (2012), which was sponsored by the International Humanist and Ethical Youth Organisation (IHEYO). What tasks and responsibilities come along with volunteering and organising for the HAG?

Mould: At the time, our group was quite small but vibrant.

It was an exciting time to meet other Ghanaian atheists and agnostics and we were very pleased that IHEYO would entrust us with organising such a big event despite us being so new as a group. We did not have any formal leadership or an Executive Committee at the time so most of this was planned by volunteering members especially Graham Knight who helped to bring us together and started the Freethought Ghana group. I was then working for an Australian Mining Company out of Accra so I made myself available to attend and help with last minute preparations like picking up delegates from the airport to their hotel and vice versa after the event.

During the event, I volunteered to be at the information desk where I helped to register attendees, distribute pamphlets, notebooks, pens and provide drinking water. I also took it upon myself to film the conference since the funds were not enough for photo and video services. I also represented the group for interviews by local and international media. To be a volunteer, to me, is about helping however, wherever and whenever you can. Whether financially, using your skills or socially, any help at all goes a long way to achieve a successful event and team effort makes it even more motivating, fun and organised.

13. Jacobsen: In Ghanaian culture, what are some of the more effective means to teach critical thinking within the socio-cultural milieu?

Mould: Ghana is made up of a culturally diverse population. It consists of roughly 100 linguistic and cultural groups. These groups, clans and tribes, although very different from each other, have certain similarities in various aspects of their culture. In Ghana, a child is said to be raised by the whole village rather than just the nuclear family. Traditionally, information was passed on from generation to generation mainly through song and dance. However, in modern days, education not only begins from home but in schools, mainstream media such as TV, radio and religious institutions. As humanists, our focus has been with the youth in schools and social media.

14. Jacobsen: What about modern scientific ideas?

Mould: Most of the understanding of things around us are taught from home by parents and extended family members who usually pass on what they learnt from their elders. This is mostly dogmatic and superstitious rather than scientific even though the end result is meant to educate. Educational institutions are good grounds to teach modern scientific ideas. Ghana can boast of some of the best science institutions such as the Kwame Nkrumah University of Science and Technology as well as research centres such as the Noguchi Memorial institute.

We also have some of the most renowned Medical Teaching hospitals in the West
African region such as the Komfo Anokye and Korle-Bu Teaching Hospitals. Ghana
has the only Planetarium in West Africa which is 1 of only 3 on the continent,
which HAG members patronise and promote. There are also science programmes and
quiz competitions amongst schools on TV.

15. Jacobsen: What are the main barriers to teaching critical thinking and modern scientific ideas?

Mould: Lack of infrastructure, dedicated science teachers who are poorly paid, medical personnel and government interest has made our science sector struggle as compared to more developed countries. The average Ghanaian sees science as more theoretical and career-specific than practical. The understanding of science is seen mostly as a ‘Western’ construct than a global one. This could have stemmed from the fact that most modern inventions known to us came from Europe and the USA.

16. Jacobsen: As a Ghanaian and African, what seem like the positives and negatives of religion and religious fervour on individuals and communities in Ghana and Africa in general?

Mould: Using the major religions like Christianity, Islam and Traditional worship, the positives of religion are that they give a sense of community, feelings of love, boosts self-esteem and gives hope and inspiration. The negatives however, are countless. Many of which include spiritual leaders taking advantage of people financially and sexually, having delusional thoughts out of superstition and religious indoctrination, self- loathing, and guilt from unnecessary thoughts, a sense of false hope, illogical reasoning, lazy attitudes towards work and charity, a false sense of entitlement, mandates to abuse yourself and others most of which turn out to be fatal, etc.

17. Jacobsen: What big obstacles (if at all) do you see social-progressive movements facing at the moment?

Mould: 1. Lack of governmental/State support
2. Lack of funding or insufficient funds
3. Mismanagement of funds
4. Lack of public support
5. Inadequate and outdated rules of law
6. Insufficient legal backing and law enforcement

18. Jacobsen: How important do you think social movements are?

Mould: Social movements are very important especially in 3rd world countries in being the voice of the people and putting pressure on government and the people to review and approve the living conditions of people and the state of affairs of a country and its environment in the best interest of everyone. This is because despite democracy being adapted as a system of rule in most African countries, most of the time, cultural, traditional and religious biases steer the governments in the wrong direction and also because most of the countries may not have enough funding to care for its citizens and infrastructure.

19. Jacobsen: In November, 2015, you became President of the HAG and in July, 2016, the Chair of the IHEYO African Working Group. What do these elected-to positions mean to you?

Mould: In the beginning of joining the humanist movement, I honestly never really saw myself as a leader. I just wanted to contribute my quota. However, I started to realise I had it in me to do great things for my group when I wrote my first article and got the most hits online! I received over 200 comments within days of posting it.

Most of the comments were negative but I felt I had left a mark and got people thinking. It also got the group recognised. I was recommended to IHEYO for a position as Secretary of the African working group in 2014 and at the time, I did not have much on my portfolio as an activist so I was so surprised and over-the-top excited when I got the news that I had been elected by international humanists who barely knew me from a record number of nominations!!! I was grateful that they read through my nomination and entrusted me with the position, which I held for 2 years.

I took it very seriously and had a lot of guidance from the IHEYO EC whose President was Nicola Jackson. I saw how long the working group had been dormant, and so many things I could do to bring it to life and so many ideas started coming to me. I increased social media presence on our Facebook page for the African Working Group and membership increased from 12 to 183 members within 2 years (It is now over 230). I also started a new Twitter page, @IheyoAfwg, with 130 followers including local and international humanists and humanist organisations. I helped create a network of African humanists and humanist organisations that are in regular communication via email, skype and WhatsApp and I discovered several African humanists and organisations that I am in constant contact with to advise and guide.

In December 2014, I together with the Humanist Association of Ghana, hosted the 2nd West African Humanist Conference (WAHC), sponsored by HIVOS and IHEYO. Please see below for links to the videos of the 2-day event which was aired live online setting a record for my group: Day 1 — Day 2– I founded the HAGtivist podcast project and started it with other volunteering members of HAG.

I had been a contributor to the IHEYO newsletter Youthspeak personally and from various member organisations in Ghana and Nigeria, and I represented the working group at the recently held General Assembly (GA) in Malta this year. I was part of the team that helped to organise the first ever continent-wide humanist conference held in Kenya called the African Humanist Youth Days (AHYD 2016) in July. This year, I knew that if I won the election as Chair, there would be so much more I could do to lead the Working group and despite a new resolution to have only Working group MOs voting this time, I came out victorious once again.

I am grateful to my fellow African humanists for their support and belief in me. It was on the same day I also received news of our election from HAG that I had also gained the position from Interim President in November 2015 to President elect in July 2016. It was truly humbling that my work was recognised and my fellow members had given me the responsibility of representing our group of highly intelligent, creative and wonderful people. These 2 positions come with the responsibility of representing Africa positively, dedicating a lot of time and resources, being passionate, bold, charismatic, firm, principled, professional, discerning, and diplomatic.

I believe that history is to be made this time round with young African humanists, and I am really happy to have the opportunity to be one of the ones at the forefront of change at this time setting a foundation for generations to come.

20. Jacobsen: Who are personal heroes within the culture?

Mould: Historically, there are many personalities that are celebrated in Ghana. Some of my personal heroes are Yaa Asantewaa, an Ashanti Queen mother who, in 1900, led the Ashanti rebellion known as the War of the Golden Stool, also known as the Yaa Asantewaa war, against British colonialism. Her courage and bravery for a woman of her time inspires me.

Our first President of Ghana, Osagyefo Dr. Kwame Nkrumah is also one of the most renowned figures in Africa. He was born in a small village in Ghana and was able to finish his education in 1 of the most prestigious institutions in the world at Oxford University, returned home a humanist and fought for Ghana’s independence from the British, making Ghana the 1st African country to be free from colonial rule in 1957. He was able to transform Ghana by providing us with our first and largest Hydroelectric dam, free basic school education, universities, science centres, Highways, our only International airport, our biggest port, etc. which we enjoy to this day.

In modern times, I have come to admire the work of our current
Minister for Gender, Children and Social Protection, Nana Oye Lithur. Although
Christian, even before her Ministerial appointment, as a Lawyer, she has helped
fight for the rights of the LGBT community despite serious opposition, worked
Pro bono to solve many domestic cases especially those against women and
children and is working tirelessly through her Ministry in assisting alleged
witches banished from their communities.

21. Jacobsen: What is your favourite scientific discovery ever?

Mould: Electricity! It forms such an integral part of modern day living that I cannot imagine where we would be without it.

22. Jacobsen: What philosopher(s), or philosophy/philosophies, best represent your own views about aesthetics, ethics, metaphysics, and politics?

Mould: I do not follow any philosophers in particular because I have not read about any. Instead, various documentaries have helped shape my thoughts on various aspects of life. I am a lover of nature, science and art. I am not interested much in politics and I derive my ethics from logic, constant research and debates amongst friends and members of HAG.

23. Jacobsen: Who seem like the greatest anti-scientific representatives in Ghana?

Mould: Religious leaders!

24. Jacobsen: What about the greatest anti-scientific and anti-humanistic movements within Ghana?

Mould: Ghana’s greatest enemy in the progress of science and technological advancement is religion. It is the only and greatest barrier because it allows for so much wrong to go on with little or no opposition. From faith healing, false prophecies, work ethics, illogical theories, women’s oppression, authoritarianism, human rights abuse, bribery and corruption, etc. Ghana is highly religious in the sense that everything that happens is attributed to a deity or superstition or both! If something good happens, it is “By His (God’s) grace”, if something bad happens, it is “God’s will” or “the devil’s work” or “a bad spirit” or “angry ancestors”. It is almost impossible to argue with people no matter how educated because of this train of thought.

Religion is not a private matter as most religious countries practice. Here, it is allowed everywhere and anyone who stands in the way of their ideology or spiritual leader is an enemy of progress to them. Most homes force relatives to pray at odd hours loudly and some go on the streets at midnight to pray or preach. In the public buses, herbal medicine traders who also double as Christian pastors are allowed to stand and preach for hours during the journey. At work, highly religious entrepreneurs and Managers force employees to sing and pray before and after work. All official meetings and occasions, private or public begin and end with a prayer. Our entire lives are circulated around prayer and worship of one deity or another. There is little space for intellectual conversations and critical thinking.

25. Jacobsen: What can external associations, collectives, organisations, and even influential individuals, do to assist you in your professional endeavours in Ghana?

Mould: I implore all external associations, collectives, organisations to partner with legitimate, active organisations here especially HAG. I advise that not only should they support the work of HAG, but also keep following up on our work. You may support the activities of HAG through bringing in substantive ideas, financial aid, materials such as books, clothes, Resource persons, promoting our activities on social media and mainstream media and influential people can also visit to help promote our work and start fundraising campaigns that would be widely reached.

26. Jacobsen: International women’s empowerment, equality, and rights are important to me. What is the status of women regarding empowerment, equality, and rights in Ghana?

Mould: I am very happy to be born at a time when women empowerment is starting to benefit the masses. However, there are several factors that are hampering empowerment and gender equality in Ghana, which include Cultural and religious beliefs. I wrote an extensive article regarding this issue in March 2016.

27. Jacobsen: Can humanism improve the status of women in Ghana more than traditional religious structures, doctrines, and beliefs?

Mould: Most definitely it can! This is because, humanism emphasises the value of all human beings regardless of gender and promotes wellbeing of people whereas religion and superstition creates an illusion of differences between the gender making men feel superior than women. Humanism also brings about a sense of selflessness and working to better the lives of the deprived in society which are mostly women.

28. Jacobsen: Thank you for your time, Roslyn.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Former President, Humanist Association of Ghana; Chair,  African Working Group (IHEYO).

[2] Individual Publication Date: November 1, 2018: www.in-sightjournal.com/mould.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Roslyn Mould [Online].November 2018; 1(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/mould.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, November 1). An Interview with Roslyn Mould. Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/mould.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Roslyn Mould. African Freethinker. 1.A, November. 2018. <www.in-sightjournal.com/mould>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Roslyn Mould.” African Freethinker. 1.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/mould.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Roslyn Mould.” African Freethinker. 1.A (November 2018). www.in-sightjournal.com/mould.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Roslyn Mould‘, African Freethinker, vol. 1.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/mould>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Roslyn Mould‘, African Freethinker, vol. 1.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/mould.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Roslyn Mould.” African Freethinker 1.A (2018):November. 2018. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/mould>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Roslyn Mould [Internet]. (2018, November; 1(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/mould.

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2018-11-01

An Interview with Michael Osei-Assibey

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 1.A, Idea: Ghanaian Secular Leaders and Thought

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: Ghana’s 5%

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: November 1, 2018

Issue Publication Date: TBD

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,522

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Michael Osei-Assibey is the President of the Humanist Association of Ghana. He discusses: humanism and irreligion; work prior to humanist positions; formal title now and tasks and responsibilities; inspiration; important books; emotionally trying experiences as a humanist; educational initiatives; social and political initiatives; trajectories; perennial threats to the freedom of the irreligious; and final thoughts.

Keywords: President, Humanist Association of Ghana, Michael Osei-Assibey.

An Interview with Michael Osei-Assibey: President, Humanist Association of Ghana[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

*Originally published in Humanist Voices (1 & 2).*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Did you start off a humanist? What’s your story into irreligion in general and humanism in particular?

Michael Osei-Assibey: I will like to believe so, but honestly I doubt that is possible in the settings I found myself. I have always enjoyed myths and fairy-tales. I grew up in a very religious household but my mother encouraged my love for reading. I will spend hours with my face in a story — chasing endings. It also helped that I was moved around a lot as a kid and each household I found myself in practised their faith differently. So, from age 6 to about 13, I went through about 6 different denominations of Christianity and, courtesy of my grandmother (a Muslim), practised Islam for a few months.

I was intrigued by the traditions and practices of all these beliefs but I always held them in the same regard as Greek mythology or the Legends told to me in my Akan and Ga traditional folk-tales. However, in moments of crisis or when overcome by fear, I will always have a strong urge to believe and hoped that I could say a few words and all will be well.

In senior high school, I started performing some thought experiments and had, for instance, one of my shoes as my god for a while to see how belief affects my life. I was surprised when I found out I seemed to be happier and had more luck in general. I realized having a belief may give one a positive outlook on life but it had no consequence on reality or the facts of life. This I will say was the pivotal moment in my journey to irreligion. I disassociated myself from organized religion right after senior high, preferring to apply reason and logic to everything.

Studying engineering in the university also helped to hone my analytical skills and made me want to perform a root cause analysis on any subject. I believe in trying to find the solution to living an ethical faithless life is how I stumbled on humanism. I may have been a humanist a long while before I even put a name to it but doing that 8 years ago was able to help me focus more on what I wanted from this journey.

2. Jacobsen: What kind of work did you do before the humanist positions?

Osei-Assibey: I am a building service engineer with a speciality in mechanical and plumbing systems. It is what I do to put food on the table so I can concentrate on humanism. Being a part of the built environment industry and running my own design firm affords me the time to do the things I am also passionate about.

3. Jacobsen: What is your formal position title now? What tasks as responsibilities come with it?

Osei-Assibey: I am currently the elected President of the Humanist Association of Ghana (HAG). I was the Organizing Secretary of the same organization in the previous cycle. I am also a board member of the Humanist Service Corps. I remember in thanking my colleagues and friends for giving me the opportunity to serve them as president, I told them my position will be in name only. To me “president” sounds too ominous so I prefer to see myself as a project manager and group cheerleader. My main job is to keep the association together and our projects running smoothly, together with my executive committee. In order to get all the members involved in as many of the activities as possible, we try to break activities into teams with every team member being a stakeholder in ensuring the success of that activity. One of the most difficult tasks that comes with the job is being the face and voice of the association. I plan however, to make my presidency about showcasing the outstanding individuals in the organization.

4. Jacobsen: Who inspires you?

Osei-Assibey: Remarkably, I am most inspired by the stories of the individuals in my organization, and the many humanists, feminists and freethinking youth I have met in person and online. Given how religious and antagonistic our society is towards new ideas, it takes intrepidity to be a freethinker and to be open about it. Even more so, whenever I hear the passion with which ideas and solutions are discussed and the depths of intellectualism involved, as well as the zeal to go out there and get things done, it gives me hope for Ghana and Africa.

5. Jacobsen: What book continually enlightens you — worth the re-reads?

Osei-Assibey: This is a good question. It’s not going to be any of the usual suspects, I promise. I spent my teenage years performing so many thought experiments about the human condition, reading on the subject feels like being in an echo chamber. One book however that I can read over and over again is Douglas Adam’s Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy. It doesn’t read like your normal sci-fi and you can start reading from any chapter and somehow, it makes sense! Within are so many commentaries on the human condition but they are presented in a humorous and subtle manner that makes for an excellent read. Most importantly, there are no endings to chase. For those who like to over analyse everything, it’s the perfect book to write numerous thesis on. To those who just want to relax, it will have you smiling and shaking your head at the sheer ridiculousness of it all.

6. Jacobsen: What has been an emotionally trying experience as a humanist in Ghana?

Osei-Assibey: There certainly has been and will be many experiences that will be emotionally trying for humanists in Ghana but personally, it’s been the times that bigotry cut close to home. We can not choose the families we are born into and one can only hope that the people you love will share the same empathy you have for humanity. However, it is that same level of empathy that helped me through those times, with the realisation that we are a product of our environment. It spurred me on to talk about issues of sexual orientation, tribalism, religious intolerance and critical thinking with members of my family, no matter how uncomfortable it got.

7. Jacobsen: What are the ongoing educational initiatives of the Humanist Association of Ghana?

Osei-Assibey: HAG started a book drive, I believe in December of last year. One of our member, Helen List, Owner of the Afia Beach Hotel, organized a Christmas book drive to make a Christmas Tree out of books which she donated a majority of to the HAG efforts. The working plan is to encourage reading in the public schools in our communities. HAG has been in talks with the Kotobabi Cluster of Schools to listen to their problems and discuss whatever solutions they propose and how we could be of help. Although their problems seemed overwhelming as with all other public schools, HAG is committed to helping out however that we can. The First step is the donation of books and stationery to the primary schools as well as working with Learning Support Solution to provide learning support to the students. We also intend to create relationships between the private schools with access to educational psychologists and teachers with specializations to create an avenue for sharing ideas. HAG is also in talks with the Accra Planetarium to find a way to get the students in these schools interested in Science and experience the universe in the planetarium.

HAG already has a relationship with the Young Adults Support Services of OAfrica, a non-profit working to empowers children and young adults in need of care and protection because of institutionalization, abandonment, neglect, disability or abuse to become productive members of the community. We have had a presentation with the young adults under their care on social issues and hope to continue along the same lines of bringing the discussions to them and giving them the tools of critical thinking to be able to discuss these ideas.

Members of HAG also run the HAGtivist podcast which is in its third season. On there, we discuss social, political and cultural issues through a humanist perspective.

Finally, we hope to start debate programs in at least one university before the first quarter of next year. Universities are supposed to be breeding grounds for free thinking but that is not currently the case. We hope that these debate programs will change that.

8. Jacobsen: What are the current social and political activist projects of the Humanist Association of Ghana?

Osei-Assibey: As much as HAG tries not to be reactionary, it is difficult given the climate we find ourselves. Our online activities targets LGBTQ rights in Ghana with our most recent one being an open letter to the speaker of parliament (insert link) on his homophobic stance. Our monthly meetings invite the general public to discussions on activism, inequality, climate change, political and economic thought, etc. Currently, we are having conversations on the marriage between economics and humanism in order to better understand the inequalities in our society and how to tackle them.

HAG also affiliates itself with pro-environment groups such as Environment 360, and we will be participating in this year’s Float Your Boat competition (an initiative to raise funds to educate kids about being environmentally aware) of which we were last years winners. We designed and constructed a raft using recycled plastic bottles, and raced with it.

Our current focus online is starting conversations on critical thinking with a series of articles planned to discuss the issue of pseudo-science in our healthcare system. The rise of homeopathic clinics and alternative medicine centres is worrying and we need to help with the sensitisation/education of the public of the potential damage they can cause.

9. Jacobsen: What are the likely trajectories of the humanist movement in Ghana for the next 5 years?

Osei-Assibey: One of the few things that fills me with hope is the increasing number of people asking questions and showing signs of scepticism. A few years ago, social media was flooded with religion, pseudoscience and people falling for all sorts of scams. However, more people seem to be asking questions now and being more sceptical about information that they receive. This trend give me hope because it is out of scepticism that humanism is birthed. There are also a lot more openly irreligious people and a lot more people openly criticizing religion with some movements even arising within churches themselves, questioning the historicity and morality of the bible and the activities of the church and religious leaders. What do I see this culminating to in 5 years? The last poll in 2010 placed nones at a little over 5%. By 2022, nones should be over 10% of the population with humanists, atheists and agnostics making a chunk of that number.

10. Jacobsen: Who are the perennial threats to the freedom to be irreligious in Ghana?

Osei-Assibey: The biggest threats are those who will be most affected by an irreligious, secular society. Religious leaders have been increasingly whipping up the hate against people who do not believe or finding subtle ways to reaffirm the faiths of their flock by pitting them against logic and reasoning. There are many times that religious leaders have been called out for their actions but seem unfazed, bouncing back with more rhetoric about how the ways of their deity is mysterious or how the “anointed” can not be touched. Sometimes, it feels like they are grasping at straws and the backlash they receive from other people of faith give me hope that their power and influence on society is waning. In our organization, we have come to realize that economic independence is also a major factor in presenting non-belief or coming out as irreligious especially to the youth who are mostly still dependent on their parents or family. I have sometimes had to advise friends not to reveal their non-belief to family yet in order not to face the most likely harsh results of being disowned.

11. ​Jacobsen: Any final feelings or thoughts?

Osei-Assibey: Becoming a humanist was a tough decision because it meant I will be going against the grain with respect to family and society at large. What has made it easier is the relationships that have been cultivated into one that I can call family. I found the love of my life, a feminist and a humanist, who shares my passion for fighting inequality wherever we find it and we will be getting married in December. I also found friends who add meaning to my life and share in the crazy notion that we can effect positive change in our own small way, and in our own small circles that may resonate and ripple across the entire country and continent.

12. Jacobsen: Thank you for your time, Michael.​

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] President, Humanist Association of Ghana.

[2] Individual Publication Date: November 1, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/assibey.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Michael Osei-Assibey [Online].November 2018; 1(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/assibey.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, November 1). An Interview with Michael Osei-Assibey. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/assibey.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Michael Osei-Assibey. Ghana’s 5%. 1.A, November. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/assibey>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Michael Osei-Assibey.” Ghana’s 5%. 1.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/assibey.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Michael Osei-Assibey.” Ghana’s 5%. 1.A (November 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/assibey.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Michael Osei-Assibey‘, Ghana’s 5%, vol. 1.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/assibey>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Michael Osei-Assibey‘, Ghana’s 5%, vol. 1.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/assibey.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Michael Osei-Assibey.” Ghana’s 5% 1.A (2018):November. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/assibey>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Michael Osei-Assibey [Internet]. (2018, November; 1(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/assibey.

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License

In-Sight Publishing and African Freethinker by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and African Freethinker 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and African Freethinker with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-11-01

Ask Catherine 1 — Culture Sensitivity and the Unseen

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee: Catherine Broomfield

Numbering: Issue 1: Inaugural Issue

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: Question Time

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: November 1, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 848

Keywords: Catherine Broomfield, iHuman Youth Society, young people.

Catherine Broomfield is the Executive Director of iHuman Youth Society. She loves the challenge and excitement of the job, especially with the diversity of the workplace and the people with non-profits. She has worked, in fact, in both the public and the private sectors. Here we open with iHuman Youth Society, cultural sensitivity, and the unseen populations of Canada.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: You work through iHuman Youth Society. To start, what is your position? What are your tasks and responsibilities?

Catherine Broomfield: I’m Executive Director. My tasks are varied as I do the usual leadership, administrative and operational tasks of an ED like hiring, budget monitoring and forecasting, strategic planning, grant writing, working with the Board of Directors and advocacy with government or other stakeholders.

Atypically, but normal for a smaller organization, I also do front-line work with the youth such as responding to crises and critical incidents within our building or connecting with them about opportunities they want to pursue and seeing how iHuman can support those ideas. I’ve also been known to clean toilets, shovel snow. Basically whatever might need doing to support the agency I’m at the ready.

Jacobsen: How does cultural sensitivity build into the work with a diverse range of young people?

Broomfield: This is an important question. I’d like to start by differentiating between ‘cultural sensitivity’ and ‘cultural safety’. The former being sometimes used when the latter is intended or necessary.

Cultural sensitivity in my view is having an awareness to one’s interactions relative to cultural differences. Cultural sensitivity is often used in training or educational sessions with the intent that people will become more aware of their biases or stereotypes.

However, having a cultural sensitive approach doesn’t necessarily mean one will act, speak or behave in a safe way. And this is the distinction.

Cultural safety involves recognizing your privilege or positionality in relation to another and creating a space that is safe for communication in a holistic way, not just physically but emotionally, spiritually, intellectually.

Inherently then, you can appreciate that trauma awareness is embedded in practice that is cultural safe. I believe the term evolved from nursing practice in New Zealand and has been recognized for its value especially as it relates to working with Indigenous peoples and others who have experienced systemic trauma.

Therefore, cultural safety, is a key element of the relational approach iHuman takes when we work with marginalized and traumatized young people. Our youth practice, then, involves creating safe and trusting interactions that build into relationships where the young person can describe the barriers they face, express what they need, and how they’d like that support provided.

With this approach a young person is witnessed. Feels valued. On this foundation we can work towards our hoped-for outcomes of a young person who feels a sense of purpose, belonging, self-worth and identity.

Jacobsen: Why are many of these subpopulations in society, more or less, the unseen?

Broomfield: Well, if you’re someone who wouldn’t identify in a subpopulation perhaps the answer to this question would be pretty straightforward — because they [the unseen] are deviant in some way and therefore they deserve what they get, how they’re treated or what they experience.

For people who experience erasure, I would suggest this is a profoundly fundamental question about equity, justice and privilege. For myself, I believe this discrimination stems from human societies tend to privilege one class of people above others.

It’s a way to distribute abundance and resources to those deemed worthy of these means and control and withhold the same from those identified as the ‘nots’. Why this is the case is truly beyond my understanding.

I don’t get it and choose to live my life working to support and include people rather than exclude them. In the preceding question, I mentioned how at iHuman we ‘witness’ young people — this is actually in direct response to what you’re getting at in this question.

We co-create relationships that are precisely about seeing, honouring and valuing humanity in young people who often describe their sense of exclusion from society or community.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Catherine.

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In-Sight Publishing and Question Time by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com and https://medium.com/question-time

Copyright 

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time 2012-2020. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2018-10-30

Ask Dr. Weld 1 — Demography 101

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee: Madeline Weld

Numbering: Issue 1: Inaugural Issue

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: Question Time

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: October 25, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,660

Keywords: demography, Humanist Perspectives, Madeline Weld.

Madeline Weld, B.Sc., M.S., Ph.D., is the President of the Population Institute Canada. She worked for and has retired from Health Canada. She is a Director of Canadian Humanist Publications and an editor of Humanist Perspectives.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What is demography?

Dr. Madeline Weld: In the words of “dictionary.com”, demography is “the science of vital and social statistics, as of the births, deaths, diseases, marriages, etc. of populations.” My interest in the subject of course focuses on population growth and the extent to which the growing human population is having a negative impact not only on the biosphere (Earth and the organisms that live on it) in terms of environmental degradation and biodiversity loss, but on humanity itself — in terms of the many stresses and conflicts associated with population growth. Within any country, the population is determined by the number of births relative to deaths together with net migration (immigration and emigration).

Jacobsen: How long were you involved this field?

Weld: As far as being concerned about population growth goes, I can say all of my life — at least as soon as I started to consciously think about things. I can’t remember too much from my very early years. But when I was two months short of five, my dad, who was in the foreign service, was posted to Brazil (November 1959 — June 1962), and I became acutely aware of the extreme differences in wealth in that country and the sprawling favelas. I also recognized that I had done nothing in particular to deserve to live in the nice big house we lived in at the time, and that the poor kids from the favelas (to whom I sometimes threw mangos over our wall — we had mango trees on our property) had done nothing in particular to be where they were. I was also very much aware of population growth when we were posted to Pakistan (1965–1967) when I was 10. The population of Pakistan at the time was less than 60 million and is now about 200 million. I remember a teacher at that time speaking about the “vast” forests and oceans and all the resources we could get from them, and wondered how these vast regions would withstand the onslaught of a growing human population.

As far as being officially active in the area of population, that didn’t start until 1992, when Population Institute Canada was founded under the name “The Ottawa Family Planning Project” by the late Dr. Whitman Wright (a professional engineer who also founded Planned Parenthood Ottawa). I was the vice-president and then in 1995 became president. The Ottawa Family Planning Project later changed its name to Global Population Concerns Ottawa and eventually to Population Institute Canada. We have always promoted awareness of the population issue and campaigned for Canadian government support for family planning in its international assistance programs. We also think that Canada should stabilize its own population and do more to protect its biodiversity and agricultural land.

Jacobsen: What was the doctoral thesis question? What were the findings of the research query or the “answer” to the question?

Weld: The funny thing is that my doctoral thesis had nothing to do with demography. I got my B.Sc. in zoology from the University of Guelph and my M.S. and Ph.D. in physiology from Louisiana State University in Baton Rouge. The only academic work that I did that could in any way be linked to demography would have been at the undergraduate level in courses dealing with ecology (e.g., how animal population expand and are checked by predators and disease and that sort of thing) or with courses that dealt with topics like gene frequencies in animal populations. The topic of human population was my own “extra-curricular” interest. Whenever I would read newspaper articles or hear news reports about conflicts in particular regions or about some environmental problem (erosion,deforestation, depleted water supplies, pollution), I’d note how the population growth aspect of the problem was either completely overlooked or, very occasionally, mentioned in passing as something inevitable.

Jacobsen: How can individuals learn some of the basics of demography within a Canadian context?

Weld: In the age of the internet, it’s very easy to find out what Canada’s population was in a given year, or what the numbers of immigrants and emigrants were, or how many births and deaths there were that year (or within a set of years). It’s noteworthy that Canada’s population increased over 5-fold over the 20th Century. It was almost 5.4 million in the 1901 census, and almost 30.7 million in 2000 (a 5.7-fold increase). The current population is almost 37 million. But our population could have stabilized a long time ago at well under 30 million because our total fertility rate has been near or below 2 children per woman since 1970. We have been driving Canada’s rapid population growth with high levels of immigration.

Unfortunately, it’s difficult to find a critical analysis of government policies that have an impact on population. Canada has no official population policy, but its policies in other areas are all directed at promoting both population growth and economic growth. Canada’s immigration policy as of 1990 has increased Canada’s population by about 1% a year, and under Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and Immigration Minister Ahmed Hussen, our intake is being upped even more. But there is no public discussion about the costs of those policies — the loss of wildlife habitat and greenspace in cities, the congestion and ever-increasing amounts of time that people spend stuck in traffic, the stresses on social services (such as health care) and on infrastructure, and on those seeking jobs. Our immigration policy benefits the few (developers, bankers, businesses that benefit from cheap labour, some politicians courting the ethnic vote) but the costs are borne by everyone.

Canada’s de facto policy of inexorably growing its population goes against all the scientific advice. In 1976, the Science Council of Canada, in its Report #25, “Population, Technology, and Resources,” advised Canada to restrict immigration, conserve its resources and stabilize its population. In 1991, the Intelligence Advisory Committee with input from Environment Canada, the Defence Department, and External Affairs, produced a confidential document for the Privy Council, called “The environment: marriage between Earth and mankind.” It states that “Controlling population growth is crucial to addressing most environmental problems, including global warming.” It notes that while Canada’s population is not large in world terms, its concentration in various areas has already put a lot of stress upon regional environments in many ways. The Fraser Basin Ecosystem Study, led by Michael Healey of the University of British Columbia (Vancouver, BC) and published in 1997, concluded that the rapidly growing urban environment would overwhelm the natural resource base and noted the environmental degradation that had already occurred. When the study was released, Michael Healey said, “The lower Fraser basin exemplifies all the social, environmental, and economic problems of modern industrial nations. These problems are not going away and it is high time that we faced up to them.”

Some people have written critically about Canada’s immigration policies. The late Martin Collacott wrote extensively about the need for reform, and economists Herb Grubel and Patrick Grady estimated that recent immigrants cost the government $30 billion more in services than they pay in taxes each year. Daniel Stoffman’s 2002 book “Who gets in” was critical of Canada’s immigration policy, as was Diane Francis in her 2002 book, “Immigration: the Economic Case.” All of the economic arguments for growing Canada’s population have been thoroughly debunked (the average Canadian is not getting richer through immigration, immigration does not change Canada’s age structure etc.) and growing our population is having a negative impact on the environment.

But the media — and most environmentalists for that matter — do not discuss let alone promote the concept of stabilizing and reducing Canada’s population as an environmental measure. Instead, we do hear about ideas like the Century Initiative, which aims to grow Canada’s population to 100 million by 2100. If this were to come about, it would be to the detriment both of working Canadians and the environment.

Jacobsen: Why is demography important in the early 21st century? Why should people care, as the oft-repeated question goes?

Weld: The human population is growing by well over 80 million people each year or about one billion people every 12 years. That’s a very sobering statistic! And that growth is occurring mostly in the developing world, much of it in the poorest countries. Growth in rich countries like Canada, the USA, and Australia is driven almost entirely through immigration. This rapid population growth in poor countries is leading to resource scarcity, unemployment, and conflict, and driving people to risk their lives to immigrate elsewhere, where their welcome is increasingly wearing thin. Witness what is happening in Europe. And for anyone who cares about life on Earth, it is sad to see the devastation of wildlife on land and in the oceans, rivers, and lakes. We should ask ourselves whether we really want to turn the Earth into a feedlot for humanity or preserve some of its natural beauty.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Madeline.

Image Credit: Madeline Weld.

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License

In-Sight Publishing and Question Time by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com and https://medium.com/question-time

Copyright 

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time 2012-2020. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2018-10-25

Ask Gayleen 1 — South African Progressivism

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee: Gayleen Cornelius

Numbering: Issue 1: Inaugural Issue

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: Question Time

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: October 25, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 864

Keywords: Gayleen Cornelius, progressivism, South Africa.

Gayleen Cornelius is a South African human rights activist from Willowmore; a tiny town in the Eastern Cape province. She grew up a coloured (the most ethnically diverse group in the world with Dutch, Khoisan, Griqua, Zulu, Xhosa Indian and East Asian ancestry). Despite being a large Demographic from Cape Town to Durban along the coast, the group is usually left out of the racial politics that plague the nation. She has spoken out against identity politics, racism, workplace harassment, religious bigotry and different forms of abuse. She is also passionate about emotional health and identifies as an empath/ humanist. Here we talk about South African progressivism.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: How did you go about forming the first South African progressive publication, as far as I know?

Gayleen Cornelius: We live in a very Afrikaner (Dutch) area known as the Garden Route. Local newspapers and media outlets aim to preserve the culture and never brings up progressive concerns unlike bigger cities like Cape Town, Port Elizabeth, Johannesburg or Durban that have progressed out of apartheid norms. News publications in these major cities are not dedicated to progressive issues either because they do not find the need to; their diverse communities are already liberal. Cornelius Press started as an initiative to counter racism (which has not progressed much in the Garden Route since apartheid because it’s a white dominated area hidden in wine/ hop farms and forests overlooking the most Southern part of the Indian Ocean. Takudzwa Mazwienduna and I ended up making it a publication dedicated to all the African progressive concerns, aiming to bring a balance to Southern African media. Social trivia (with a lot of reports on speculations about witchcraft allegations), political propaganda and tourism journals summarizes everything there is to know about Southern African media. We tried our best to juggle our livelihoods with this new initiative, but our barriers by far outweighed anything we could handle at that time.

Jacobsen: What is the state of South African progressivism?

Cornelius: South Africa is undoubtedly the most progressive country in Africa. It was the first to recognise LGBTQ rights on the continent, did away with most repressive laws (especially from Apartheid), pushed for secularism in public schools and recently legalized cannabis for recreational purposes. A lot of people will attest to the fact that South Africa is a lot more liberal than most first world countries. The people however, are not liberal. Gruesome atrocities like “correctional” rape for lesbians are very common. A lot of the demographics that make up the population still uphold inhumane cultural norms like how domestic violence is considered normal in African communities, arranged marriages in Indian groups and racism in white communities. These unhealthy social vices that people overlook slackens our progressive legislation. The South African workplace is not a pretty sight either, especially for African immigrants most of whom are undocumented, making them vulnerable to various abuses they cannot report. Income inequality is very sharp in South Africa, it could cut through thin air. This is the reason for the county’s very high crime rate and constant violent strikes. So in short, we have progressive legislation that just needs a lot of following up.

Jacobsen: What are some impediments to some of the more impactful elements of progressivist philosophy, such as the enfranchisement of women, in South Africa?

Cornelius: Inhumane cultural norms, racism and a low regard for worker’s rights are the three main impediments holding the country back in terms of progressivism. There is need for cultural reform. Cultural practices that infringe on human rights should be ruled out. There is need for race relations to improve too. There has been cases of white farmers who kill their black and coloured workers for sport, black workers who retaliate; repaying violence with violence. When the news comes out from the white owned publications, it is just the black workers who are pointed out as murderers. The media and politicians should give a non racialist view when dealing with problems affecting South Africa to encourage all the citizens to work together with a common goal. Worker’s rights should also be addressed discouraging the culture of exploiting workers.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Gayleen.

Image Credit: Gayleen Cornelius.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and Question Time by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com and https://medium.com/question-time

Copyright 

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time 2012-2020. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2018-10-22

Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Erik Haereid and Rick Rosner (Part Four)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: October 22, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 6,379

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Rick Rosner and I conduct a conversational series entitled Ask A Genius on a variety of subjects through In-Sight Publishing on the personal and professional website for Rick. Rick exists on the World Genius Directory listing as the world’s second highest IQ at 192 based on several ultra-high IQ tests scores developed by independent psychometricians. Erik Haereid earned a score at 185, on the N-VRA80. Both scores on a standard deviation of 15. A sigma of ~6.13 for Rick – a general intelligence rarity of 1 in 2,314,980,850 – and ~5.67 for Erik – a general intelligence rarity of 1 in 136,975,305. Of course, if a higher general intelligence score, then the greater the variability in, and margin of error in, the general intelligence scores because of the greater rarity in the population. This amounts to a joint interview or conversation with Erik Haereid, Rick Rosner, and myself.

Keywords: actuarial science, America, Erik Haereid, Norway, Rick Rosner, statistics, Scott Douglas Jacobsen.

Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Erik Haereid and Rick Rosner (Part Four)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: With a moderate pivot from good and evil, and morality, into religion and theology, what defines religion to each of you? What defines theology to each of you?

Within the definitions given, and in general, what seems reasonable and unreasonable in theology and religion? What seems true and false in theology and religion? What seems functional and dysfunctional in theology and religion?

Rick Rosner: The problem with theology and religion in general: it was designed to answer questions via making up stuff that were not yet answerable throughout history by actual understanding of how the world worked.

Religion has been and is a comfort. It has been a means of exercising social control and concentrating power. It contains a lot of guesses about the nature of things that have turned out, as we have learned more, not to be true.

It does not mean that you have to throw out the entire exercise. Because, to some extent, theologizing and building religions. That is practicing philosophy. It is just that philosophy, especially with it is theological, eventually turns out to be disproven.

On the other hand, as we have recently talked about, there is no guarantee that what we believe as supposedly scientific objective people will not be undermined by discoveries in the future.

I have been saying a lot, lately, that cold random universe is a misunderstanding and will be undermined by an order-based universe. A universe that where everything that exists and emerges from increasing order rather than the universe playing out as a kind of random bunch of collisions among particles bouncing off each other.

Who knows what philosophical implications will be of an order-based universe? But the older religions, the book, Homo Deus, talked about some of the reasons for the way that the religions of the time meshed with the economic and social structures of the time to reinforce them, to help things function smoothly.

That the monotheistic religions, where Man in God’s image, functions great for a farming society, where we have to believe that we have souls, but we cannot believe that animals have souls because that is too brutal.

Because look at what we do to animals, Man being created in the image of God and everything else being created for use by Man helps agricultural societies function. Then the earlier gods with dozens of gods and spirits and stuff.

Those were helpful in pre-literate periods, where those gods were probably more improvised. It did not matter because no one wrote anything down yet, because there was not language yet – 60,000-70,000 years ago.

So, I like the argument the author makes in the book. Religion is a tool of its era. Each type of religion is a tool of its era to support or provide mental buttressing and societal buttressing for the necessary structures of that society.

But most of religions guesses about the nature of things have been wrong except in the most generous, general terms. It would be weird to think that everything was wrong until now we have science and then we are right about everything.

That seems deluded, arrogant, and counter historical. At the same time, we have all this feedback that we are getting things right because science is so effective at manipulating the world.

So, it is a mix. Where lots of evidence that science is correct, lots of historical evidence that our beliefs at any point in time will be disproven later, my best guess is that the specifics of science, most of them, will survive.

There are definitely 100 or so elements made of protons, electrons, and neutrons. All that is not getting thrown out. It is not some made up a belief system that will be overthrown 200 years from now.

What might get overthrown are the philosophical underpinnings why science works and math works, there’s always the chance that what we perceive as protons, neutrons, and electrons will get tweaked to the point that we barely recognize the later versions that people in the 1930s had a hard time adjusting to the quantum mechanical versions of the elements that make up the world.

Einstein famously hated the probabilistic nature of Quantum Mechanics. He worked hard to overthrow it. 90 years later, we are kind of okay with it. In the ‘70s, there was an ad for a Palm Olive Liquid, which was a dish soap that was emerald green.

It was supposed to be kind to your hands. So, there is a whole series of ads about Mash the Manicurist.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Rosner: She would talk about how Palm Olive is gentle on your hands. The housewife she is talking to in the nail salon says, “Oh, psha!” Mash would always say, “Well, you’re soaking in it!”

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Rosner: The woman would look down and her fingers were in this green liquid making them all nice.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Rosner: It is kind of what Quantum Mechanics is like. We have kind of been soaking in it culturally for almost a century now. What made people crazy in the 1920s and 30s, people say, “Oh, alright.”

Nobody is freaking out about a single photon being able to travel through more than a single slit at a time. We have plenty of freak-outs to come, philosophically, as we move into the future.

One thing that is coming is the era of big data and the discovery of previously unrecognized relationships among aspects of the world that we could not find out because our brains are too small, and our data processing apparatuses are too primitive.

We will get hit with a bunch of new relationships to try to understand. Also, we will get hit with a bunch of black box relationships that will be tough to understand because the correlations will be made within systems that we cannot get at.

With the handiest example being, all the sudden: AI schema that has made computers the unbeatable champions of Chess and Go. We do not know what principles they have developed within their architecture.

We do not know what algorithms that are working off. I think there is a similar thing happening with Google Translate. It has developed a metalanguage within itself. That is not any human language but facilitates the translation among human languages.

That is a big scary black box deal. We will have our big data apparatuses. They will be coming up with all sorts of relationships and discovering new aspects of the world, and correlations.

Why those correlations are, they may be beyond us. I read some science fiction story. Maybe, it as by Chang. The guy who wrote the short story that became the Amy Adams movie.

Anyway, it concerns scientists 150 years from now. I do not know. They write for the Journal of Human Science, which is a completely bullshit journal because humans can no longer do science because it has moved beyond regular humans.

It is all being done by massive information processing AI entities. So, what used to be the chief or the noblest pursuit of humanity, it is now this little hobbyist magazine, which would be the equivalent of a model railroad magazine today.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

We will continue to be surprised. Those surprises will continue to be in philosophical, existential, and theological terms will be good and bad surprises. Theology got hit by bad surprises during the past 2,000 years.

Earth got knocked out of the center of the universe. The Star System got knocked out of the center of the universe. Humans got knocked out of the center of God’s Creation. God got knocked out as the creator of the universe. Theology’s ass got kicked.

In some ways, we have gone as far as we can go to kick ourselves to the corner of the universe. Although, I would argue that IC further kicks us, by establishing a super long timeline. So, we are not even favoured by having our own special place in time.

We got kicked out of our special place in space. Then IC kicks us out of our special place in time. A Big Bang universe, every moment of a Big Bang universe is its own unique moment.

But a universe that kind of keeps going as a rolling boil across trillions and octillions of years. There is no favoured place in time really either. But once we have taken it as far as we can go to kick humans and human consciousness into insignificance, there are surprises that will pull consciousness back to a pretty important role in the business of the universe

Erik Haereid: To me, religion is about people, imaginations and metaphysics. It’s about what people in general need to believe in beyond their narrowed perceptions, and their struggle between conviction and if their perceptions are true or false.

Religion is also the history about all these imaginations, the doctrines, through history and in every culture that exists and ever has existed.

It’s a broad conglomerate of fictions, in the space where we have needs, doubts, we are uncertain and scared, where we are children even though we are grown up. Religion contains our absent or dead father and mother.

Religion fills, for a majority of people, the mental gap people tend to get when they don’t feel whole. But it departs from fictional movies and novels because its task is more existential; while ordinary fictions that we know are false are entertaining, religion is nurture and mental food.

Theology is the study of such religious belief. It’s the investigation of those histories, trying to prove if it’s true or false. To me, it’s also associated with the priest, who spoke at school and in the church, and represented an alternative truth and path.

And therefore it’s more like telling us the truth, like a teacher in history or geography, more than asking critical questions about if it’s true or false. I can’t remember much self-criticism from my childhood’s priests.

They told us a truth, with conviction and aura. I can’t remember that they said something like “…but, maybe what I tell you now is not true”. So, theology is, to me, the beginning of and cause to religion wars (Here I link theology to every religion, not only Christianity).

It’s the foundation of centuries with quarrels and unnecessary fights. Because it does not contain any doubt. And since religion contains several gods and texts which do not fit into a single truth, theology’s lack of respect and humility creates violence and wars.

God does not exist, other than a need, a wish, as comfort, to reduce personal responsibility and emotional baggage. A type like Jesus may have existed. That’s possible, and likely.

But most of the figures from the texts are mythical, and some of them may have existed in some way; the texts exaggerate them to fit the reader’s needs, the aim of the text.

To me the Bible, Koran and the history of any God is a manmade project, well written, superb actually, fictions that fulfills many people’s needs. In addition, it’s an edifice of doctrines that force people into certain beliefs and ways of thinking.

It’s a “dictator’s” voice speaking to his audience, his uncertain and unsafe people, promising them safety and prosperity. And the people, in lack of independence and belief in themselves, listen, grasp and take it for granted.

To me, this castle of fantasies reminds me about how fragile we humans are, emotionally, and how dominating emotions like anxiety, guilt and shame, are. Religions are a tool for humans to abide by in their lives.

Therefore, theology in the sense that it tries to prove Gods existence, or at least to make arguments for Gods existence, is close to nonsense. The main problem is that some really think the text is true, whether it’s the Bible, Koran or Vedas.  But as fictions, the texts can be rewarding.

What is meaningful is discussing human’s fantasy abilities. And our immense needs to build these kinds of illusions and imaginary worlds. And of course our inclination to let us convince; believe in such castles of words, symbols, actions, meaning, even though most people at some deep level understand that this can’t be true.

The history of religions is more like a testimony of a wonderful creative human brain. It’s absolutely amazing what abilities we have, to let us lead into such fantasy worlds, let us be seduced and directed.

And especially let the imaginations, or rather the people who manipulate, convince us that the imaginations are real. What I think is most interesting, which psychologists certainly can answer better, is where the boundary goes, that’s where we let go of the imagination and think it’s real.

I don’t believe in any God, but in the creative power, human abilities and will that faith triggers in people.  The downside is the hate that also often appears.

Faith makes us creative; think of all the monumental temples, churches, mosques, and other buildings and monuments that people have built to worship their God. And all the beautiful texts. And all the complex and wonderful rites and ceremonies. The problem is not all these manmade constructions, but the dogmatic and sometimes hateful content.

What are functional and not? I think there are some moral compasses in some biblical texts that are functional, for instance, the story of Jesus Christ. The Ten Commandments is another example. People use it, and also to the good.

To people who have faith, religious texts, rituals, spiritual leaders and monuments have functioned as a safety net, social acceptance, and as a beam through their lives.

To us who don’t have faith, the monuments and rites can be affecting and beautiful. And the music. I have visited churches to calm down, to find inner peace. I like to walk on cemeteries. I feel quiet and peaceful when doing so. When I travel I often visit a church or two, because of its monumental and at the same time tranquil environment. It’s relaxing.

Religions are dysfunctional as extreme dogmas, brainwashers, messing up people’s perception of reality (in the sense that there is a reality), as inspiration to violence, and as motivation to perpetual religious wars.

A main problem in some religions is the double standard, like the situation in the Catholic Church with the Catholic priests abusing children. And when the theology doesn’t open up for new and other interpretations of the texts.

Religions are a lot about extremities. When parents and other authorities teach their children to kill in the name of God, with great promises both in life and after, it’s quite obvious that this becomes dangerous when it’s systemized. As we can see.

Belief in prosperity or at least a nice continuation after death could be functional to a lot of people, because it reduces the anxiety connected to the thought of the scary and unknown phenomenon death.

On the other hand, most religions demand some strict behaviour to achieve the nice continuation, e.g. Karma. This could also motivate people to act good in life.

There is for sure some functionality in religions like Buddhism, where one uses contemplation and meditation techniques and rituals to achieve inner peace. In the secular world, we have adapted it as yoga and learned meditation techniques trying to get the same effects.

One way to conviction is when the belief in God helps you substantially in a traumatic situation in life. If a dogma, a faith, a strong belief in whatever it is, can bring you through the most severe trauma, alive, I guess you lean toward believing that this God or whatever exists in one or another way, even though it’s maybe possible to explain the phenomenon via biochemistry, psychology or something.

I agree with Rick in that religion is an explanation of what people need to know, don’t know, and based on an inner pressure of having to know. It’s about human needs.

And why can’t we live without knowing, without gaining complete control? Curiosity? Anxiety? Probably both based on a need to understand and see the whole picture that makes meaning and sense, and make us survive.

Humans try to explain their lives and the world they perceive, the Universe, based on various reasons. On this road, we get stuck, locked, because we tend to be convinced (because it pleases us).

When something feels odd or dangerous or dislikeable, people tend to reject it even if it’s based on data, science, logic, and everything humans see as truth. These obstacles postpone a smooth understanding of how things work.

We need to feel safe in our environment, before we move on. Rick mentions Einstein’s resistance to the probabilistic nature of Quantum Mechanics.

I am sure it took people some time, then back in 1543 (I had to look up the year) when Copernicus draw the new picture of where the earth stood in the Universe, and changed people’s consciousness from a geo- to heliocentric view, before they accepted that the Earth orbits around the Sun and not the opposite.

We often choose what pleases us; fulfill our needs, even if it’s false; even if it’s plausible that it’s false, and sometimes even if we know that it’s false. Then our subjective truth becomes something else than an objective truth.

The irrational nature of us is a part of the truth. We can choose to call this nature whatever we like, for instance, a part of a deterministic Universe that we don’t know yet, or that exists beyond what we are capable of ever knowing.

When people find peace, some other, alternative truth can be disturbing. Also, truths based on enormous amounts of data, information, and smart black boxes inside AI-agents. Maybe this is temporary, because we don’t know or understand yet.

Maybe there exists an objective truth that is good and not bad, where every human brain and body on the planet fits into a higher level of consciousness. We’ll see. Until then we are all more or less separated, with our own, individual truth, and in groups where each individual seemingly fit into some dogmatic truth.

If the absolute truth is a higher level of human consciousness, a summary of all individual truths, then the objective truth is the present truth, including science and religions, knowing, doubting and believing. Knowing can, after all, be reduced to a mental process. Maybe our own technology one day will help us to gain a common truth.

Religion is not wrong in the sense that it’s not functional, on the contrary. It’s, as Rick says, a tool, like eyeglasses, cars and computers. We always look for the best tool, the most correct map, and adjust it all the time.

It’s interesting and rewarding to read Ricks thoughts, like when he says that we, humans, are captured in theology, philosophy and existential questions and definitions, because we can never collect or reach science.

In the future, it’s contained in the CI’s black boxes with unknown algorithms finding new relationships and correlations to events and phenomenon. We will never be the Masters we dream about, gaining the total control we try to, understanding everything, being superior as we are to other animals.

Because on this road we invent things that prevent us from achieving this. Like AI and black boxes. And because this will happen perpetually, we will always turn us to theology and religion and spirituality, because we can’t accept that we do not know everything! If I understand you right, Rick.

2. Jacobsen: Also, to close the Part Three add-ons, we talked about the little world of good and evil. In relation to religion or the lack thereof, what comprises the middle world and big world of good and evil?

Rosner: You have been asking questions about various levels of evil over the last few weeks and days. Good and evil on a small scale. This reminds me of a diatribe I went on with you. It was under a different topical umbrella about companies that suck and people who are assholes.

I assume this falls under little evil. Things that do not directly threaten people’s welfare but make life a little bit more unpleasant for everyone. That can include microaggressions and even the refusal to grant cognitive credit to animals.

It allows us to, in America, to kill 10-20 billion chickens per year. We raise meat animals under terrible conditions. Also, milk cows don’t have the greatest time. I assume that will be looked at as a greater evil when we have a better understanding of consciousness.

Although maybe not, because the kinds of consciousness that will be more commonplace, more complicated, and more powerful than ours in the future, the life of a chicken may not be any more important than we often view it.

Medium evils are acts that directly harm other people.  That threatens their lives. That takes away their money or freedom. That discount their opinions. Right now, we are 18 days away from the mid-term elections.

There is massive voter suppression in the country. That seems like it is, at least, medium evil. The Republicans, or even each party, doing it. But the Republicans have been much more successful and ruthless about it, since 2010.

That is, at least, medium evil. Big evil would be things like war. In discussing all these, you have to discuss whether the actions that lead to the goodnesses and evils are intentional or just a matter of generalized incompetence and not being able to resist our own tendencies.

Also, under big evil, I guess, you would have situations of which we are not yet aware that impinge larger structures than just our planet. It is reasonable to assume that there are other conscious species out there.

That many of them are going to be much, much older than us. That their actions might encompass much larger things. There is the possibility of Star Wars level of evil. Then there is the possibility that the universe has some intentionality.

It implies the possibility for universe level good and evil. I realized that talked about evil with all my examples…

Jacobsen: …[Laughing]…

Rosner: …and no examples of good at various levels. But having decent manners counts as a little good, some Jewish people joke, including us, about Mitzvoth.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Rosner: When I talk about them, it is about something really trivial I did. Nothing comes to mind like holding a door open for somebody. A medium good might be working to be less of a dick in a long-term relationship.

My wife and I, as a precautionary measure and not because we have a lot of conflicts, have been going to couples counselling for decades, about once per month. It is like doing maintenance on the relationship and then helping to build an emotional framework.

Where if there is something that annoys me, I can look at it, then decide, “Is this something I can let go because it has no real importance? Or is it something I need to call her on because it has the potential to impact our relationship? Also, are there things I need to work on myself that be annoying and whether I can lose them in the context of the relationship?”

Then there are medium goods, overt acts that have actual impacts on other people and also on you, like giving to charity. Since I have been unemployed, I have been crappy at it. Giving up money or time has a real impact on your life and someone else’s life, it seems like a medium thing

It seems like something that you have to do. But it is not simply opening doors as an activity that you’re used to, e.g., I was a doorman for years. I am very cognizant of doors. That’s all I have time for.

Haereid: I believe that one main reason to evilness on all levels, from person to person, with groups like organizations involved, religious, political and others, and with states, big, medium or little evil, is overregulation (suppression, brainwashing, dogmatizing…).

When people are diminished or overruled by someone else beyond their own needs and opportunities, we seem to produce violence and evil actions, physically and psychologically, against ourselves and others.

We are kind of forced into a tyranny of egality, and of course, we hate it because it’s not natural for us. But everyone (my exaggeration) tells us that we need to fit in by being egalitarian. No one (another exaggeration) sees that to fit in and be good we need to be different.

When I talk about equality and egality I mean equal in almost everything else than worth and quality; to achieve a perception and feelings of that humans have the same quality and worth, we have to incarnate that we are substantially different. That’s my point.

A little evil could be to be rude by not answer a colleague or neighbour when it’s natural to be polite, and you are not distracted by something else. And in general being rude to someone you just don’t like, without any constructive criticism.

A little good could be to be more than polite to that neighbour or stranger you meet at the store, and say hello and smile or something like that.

I would say that if you torture one person to death, knowing that this person died under severe pain, it’s big evil because of the severity of the pain, even though no state or government or religious organization is involved, and even though no other persons are seemingly influenced.

If the evil is medium or big depends on the amount of the pain, for how long this affects that person(s) and of how many persons this affect. If one person damages a world (by for instance creating and spreading a harmful internet virus, starting a war or intentionally spread an AI-agent that is programmed to kill or hurt as many people as possible), that is big evil.

And if a group of people, like a religious fanatic group as Daesh, creates violence by torturing and killing people, that is big evil.

If you kill a bird because you are hungry, it’s not evil but brutal and necessary; it’s life, it’s natural. But if you catch a bird and make it suffers in some kind of pain some time before you kill it, it’s evil. It’s, as Rick says, the conditions before killing the animal whether it’s by hunting or raising that matters.

Regimes, both secular and religious, and groups like political or religious movements, are good when they teach people to think for themselves, let them act as they want to (to some extent) and evolve as themselves and not necessarily to be approved by others (persons, regimes, groups, organizations…).

When we get what we basically need we tend to accept that other people think and act otherwise than us, and we also approve it and learn from it.

Goodness is about getting opportunities, evilness about not. Religious texts, rituals, cultures can both reveal opportunities and not. The same about secular societies; the regimes, the culture, the organizations need to facilitate, so that each person get these optimal opportunities. This is big good; the freedom to choose, the number of possibilities.

A Norwegian priest said recently that God gives her a bigger perspective of life, and a room to express all her difficult emotions and feelings. Then God is good, for her and her surroundings.

I also believe that faith can raise one’s consciousness over and beyond the levels people with no faith usually possess; faith can under certain circumstances make us more intelligent and embrace our emotions in a better way.

Its evil intentionally to focus on others flaws to gain position oneself. This is so on personal level, between groups and states.

Goodness is when for instance a political leader acknowledges and shows respect to an opponent. Such as John McCain did in the 2008 presidential campaign against Barack Obama, when a woman said Obama was “Arab”. McCain stopped her, and said that “Obama is a decent family man…”. McCain defended his political opponent.

Goodness is to embrace others by confirming them, and make the others see their own opportunities and abilities, talent, like a trainer.

I will also mention the decadence of the western world, illustrated in, for instance, the movie “The Wolf of Wall Street”. This becomes evil when it escalates and harms people severely, because we are intelligent enough to know the consequences. I think it’s qualified when religions criticize this kind of behaviour.

This decadence can be illustrated by let’s say drinking two bottles of liquor containing 40 % alcohol each day instead of two-three glasses of wine to your Saturday dinner. It’s about moderation.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Erik Haereid: “About my writing: Most of my journalistic work I did in the pre-Internet-period (80s, 90s), and the articles I have saved are, at best, aged in a box somewhere in the cellar. Maybe I can find some of it, but I don’t think that’s that interesting.

Most of my written work, including crime short stories in A-Magasinet (Aftenposten (one of the main newspapers in Norway, as Nettavisen is)), a second place (runner up) in a nationwide writing contest in 1985 arranged by Aftenposten, and several articles in different newspapers, magazines and so on in the 1980s and early 1990s, is not published online, as far as I can see. This was a decade and less before the Internet, so a lot of this is only on paper.

From the last decade, where I used more time doing other stuff than writing, for instance work, to mention is my book from 2011, the IQ-blog and some other stuff I don’t think is interesting here.

I keep my personal interests quite private. To you, I can mention that I play golf, read a lot, like debating, and 30-40 years and even more kilos ago I was quite sporty, and competed in cross country skiing among other things (I did my military duty in His Majesty The King’s Guard (Drilltroppen)). I have been asked from a couple in the high IQ societies, if I know Magnus Carlsen. The answer is no, I don’t :)”

Haereid has interviewed In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal Advisory Board Member Dr. Evangelos Katsioulis, some select articles include topics on AI in What will happen when the ASI (Artificial superintelligence) evolves; Utopia or Dystopia? (Norwegian), on IQ-measures in 180 i IQ kan være det samme som 150, and on the Norwegian pension system (Norwegian). His book on the winner/loser-society model based on social psychology published in 2011 (Nasjonalbiblioteket), which does have a summary review here.

Erik lives in Larkollen, Norway. He was born in Oslo, Norway, in 1963. He speaks Danish, English, and Norwegian. He is Actuary, Author, Consultant, Entrepreneur, and Statistician. He is the owner of, chairman of, and consultant at Nordic Insurance Administration.

He was the Academic Director (1998-2000) of insurance at the BI Norwegian Business School (1998-2000) in Sandvika, Baerum, Manager (1997-1998) of business insurance, life insurance, and pensions and formerly Actuary (1996-1997) at Nordea in Oslo Area, Norway, a self-employed Actuary Consultant (1996-1997), an Insurance Broker (1995-1996) at Assurance Centeret, Actuary (1991-1995) at Alfa Livsforsikring, novice Actuary (1987-1990) at UNI Forsikring, and a Journalist at Norsk Pressedivisjon.

He earned an M.Sc. in Statistics and Actuarial Sciences from 1990-1991 and a Bachelor’s degree from 1984 to 1986/87 from the University of Oslo. He did some environmental volunteerism with Norges Naturvernforbund (Norwegian Society for the Conservation of Nature), where he was an activist, freelance journalist and arranged ‘Sykkeldagen i Oslo’ twice (1989 and 1990) as well as environmental issues lectures.

He has industry experience in accounting, insurance, and insurance as a broker. He writes in his IQ-blog the online newspaper Nettavisen. He has personal interests in history, philosophy, reading, social psychology, and writing.

He is a member of many high-IQ societies including 4G, Catholiq, Civiq, ELITE, GenerIQ, Glia, Grand, HELLIQ, HRIQ, Intruellect, ISI-S, ISPE, KSTHIQ, MENSA, MilenijaNOUS, OLYMPIQ, Real, sPIqr, STHIQ, Tetra, This, Ultima, VeNuS, and WGD.

Rick G. Rosner: “According to semi-reputable sources, Rick Rosner has the world’s second-highest IQ. He earned 12 years of college credit in less than a year and graduated with the equivalent of 8 majors. He has received 8 Writer’s Guild Award and Emmy nominations, and was named 2013 North American Genius of the Year by The World Genius Registry.

He has written for Remote Control, Crank Yankers, The Man Show, The Emmy Awards, The Grammy Awards, and Jimmy Kimmel Live!. He has also worked as a stripper, a bouncer, a roller-skating waiter, and a nude model. In a TV commercial, Domino’s Pizza named him the World’s Smartest Man. He was also named Best Bouncer in the Denver Area by Westwood Magazine.

He spent the disco era as an undercover high school student. 25 years as a bar bouncer, American fake ID-catcher, 25+ years as a stripper, and nude art model, and nearly 30 years as a writer for more than 2,500 hours of network television.

He lost on Jeopardy!, sued Who Wants to Be a Millionaire over a bad question, and lost the lawsuit. He spent 35+ years on a modified version of Big Bang Theory. Now, he mostly sits around tweeting in a towel. He lives in Los Angeles, California with his wife and daughter.

You can send an email or a direct message via Twitter, or find him on LinkedIn, or see him on YouTube.”

[2] Individual Publication Date: October 15, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/haereid-rosner-four; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Erik Haereid and Rick Rosner (Part Four) [Online].October 2018; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/haereid-rosner-four.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, October 22). Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Erik Haereid and Rick Rosner (Part Four). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/haereid-rosner-four.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Erik Haereid and Rick Rosner (Part Four). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, October. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/haereid-rosner-four>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Erik Haereid and Rick Rosner (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/haereid-rosner-four.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Erik Haereid and Rick Rosner (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (October 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/haereid-rosner-four.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Erik Haereid and Rick Rosner (Part Four)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/haereid-rosner-four>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Erik Haereid and Rick Rosner (Part Four)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/haereid-rosner-four.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Erik Haereid and Rick Rosner (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):October. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/haereid-rosner-four>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Erik Haereid and Rick Rosner (Part Four) [Internet]. (2018, October; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/haereid-rosner-four.

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2018-10-22

An Interview with Dr. Madeline Weld (Part One)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: October 22, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,702

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Dr. Madeline Weld is President of Population Institute Canada. She discusses: family background; factors in birth rate; ethical rightness of human rights; rape as a weapon of war; climate change and overpopulation; authoritarianism and xenophobia; and a rational approach to immigration policy.

Keywords: Madeline Weld, Population Institute Canada, president.

An Interview with Dr. Madeline Weld: President, Population Institute Canada (Part One)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: In terms of family background, what was it?

Dr. Madeline Weld: My dad was an English Canadian. My mom was originally from Germany. He was working at the military mission in Berlin [and she was one of the local staff], choosing to marry her was unpopular with the Canadian government and his parents [Laughing].

He was a diplomat. We travelled a lot. Up until I was 15, I only spent 4 years in Canada. I lived in Brazil between 4 and 8. I lived in Pakistan from 10 to 12. Then we went to Switzerland and then came back here when I was 15.

As it happens, I was born in the United States. My father was posted in New York when I was born. So, I was born in White Plains, New York. Anyway, my childhood was constantly travelling every few years and returning to Canada after a posting abroad.

From an early age, I was aware of the population issue. I remember in Brazil seeing the Favelas and thinking, “Oh my goodness.” I was also aware, even though I was short of 5 when we went, of the contrast between how I was living, and they were living.

I got interested in population growth and the human population was growing rapidly. I remember thinking in Pakistan at pretty places, “Is this still going to be here? Or will it be deforested?”

That is how I got interested. I always have been aware of it for as long as I can remember [Laughing]. That is my family background [Laughing].

I have a bachelor’s degree from Guelph in Zoology. Then I have a master’s and Ph.D. in Physiology from Louisiana University in Baton Rouge. My most recent work was at Health Canada. I am retired. Yay!

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Weld: [Laughing] I worked for Health Canada for 14 ½ years up until October 2015.

2. Jacobsen: When it comes to demographics and population statistics or analysis, what are some of the top factors that are strongly negatively or positively correlated with the birth rate of a nation or a region of the world?

Weld: Certainly, the education level is strongly correlated. The higher the education level in the country. The more likely women are to have smaller families. That is strongly correlated, so is culture. Because in strongly pro-natalist places, where tribalism is also strong, it is harder to get acceptance of birth control.

I would say correct information too. Part of the problem in Africa is there are incorrect myths of birth control: the harms, causes of infertility, and so on, or that it is a Western plot. It is the case in some Muslim countries and some imams have been saying it. Then we have, in Tanzania, the president, Magufuli, who is pro-natalist. [He said people should have as many children as possible and those who don’t want a lot of children are lazy.]

The other very important thing is availability. Bangladesh got its total fertility rate close to 2.0. It made a concerted government effort to provide family planning for women in the villages in a culturally appropriate way.

Family planning and government-political will to do something are helpful. Thailand, for instance, in 1970 – and the Philippines – had the same poverty level and population. Then Thailand promoted family planning quite vigorously, but not coercively as in China.

The Philippines had the Roman Catholic Church that was against family planning. Thailand’s total fertility rate fell. Now, it is a net exporter of rice; whereas, the Philippines must import rice. Thailand is doing better economically. The work of Jane O’Sullivan in Australia showed something interesting.

Usually, we say, “Birth rates fall when a nation accumulates a certain amount of wealth.” But what happens is the reverse, when the birth rates fall, especially when they have 2-3 children, the wealth of the nations increases. So, individuals become richer.

I think we are putting the cart before the horse when we say, “If we bring wealth to a certain level, we will get a particular birth rate drop.” I think the most pernicious myth is the demographic transition theory. It assumes all nations will go through the same stages Europe went through.

That when wealth increases then the total fertility rate will fall. It has not happened on the continent of Africa, and a few other countries. People need to speak to the benefits of small families. Both to societies and to the environment.

Some have done this in an appropriate and effective way.

3. Jacobsen: On the last point, if someone argues for the ethical rightness of human rights – in other words, the implementation of reproductive rights for women, and if one looks at the economic development of a society as a result of family planning and other things like this, could an easy argument be made that it is both morally and economically the right choice to have family planning and reproductive health rights for women respected and implemented?

Weld: Yes, I agree. Even if the world were not overpopulated, I am in favour of women’s rights, education, and the right to choose to have kids or not. I believe that is a choice best made by a woman and, preferably, her partner [Laughing]. That they raise a family together.

So, I think the choice is important, and the informed choice depends on being independent. Because a lot of women in these surveys say that they are not the ones to decide. It is their husbands or their mother-in-law. They think it is a duty.

It would be educating them that they have their own rights and rights to self-determination, and so on. That is not the case for a lot of them. Right now, we have the resurgent Islamism. That is one of the things there. They become very pro-natalist.

The more fundamentalist the place – regardless of religion, but some more than others – then the more kids they will have; the less choice and economic independence that they will have. So, I would say. It is, as of right now, people have as a right to have as many kids as they want, even if they cannot afford them.

But they will have the consequences. In a lot of these overpopulated places, where there is conflict and women are raped, even unhealthy family planning, no family planning has imposed the horrors that they experience in conflict zones, overpopulated conflict zones like Darfur.

It is partly ethnic. It is partly Jihadi. Even if you have ethnic groups that do not get along, the more there are economic and resource pressures, then the worse they will be.

4. Jacobsen: Also, the trend right into the present with rape as a weapon of war.

Weld: I hate to say it, “Humans are not perfect. They are a mixed bag based on evolution. Maybe, that behaviour is evolutionary, which is not something that I would support from an ideological point of view. But, maybe it is.

It takes a moral code to behave decently if you are the conqueror or the winner of a war – not to abuse the women. I wouldn’t want to be the women in a conquered nation or a conquered tribe [Laughing]. Some call them primitive societies and not technological societies.

In some cases, there is a lot of raiding and kidnapping of a woman, as has been described by Napoleon Chagnon in some South American tribes. But from that perspective, when the population is low and not technologically advanced, the damage is limited, especially environmental damage.

With our population, we can cause a huge amount of damage. The progressive movement ignores the impact of population growth, “It’s Capitalism or overconsumption.” [Laughing] But all these people, the question is, “Do they want to live on a subsistence level or consume some more?”

The Chinese started to develop and eat more meat. Can anyone blame them? They could not before. Once they got the chance, they did. As a human, we should not expect people to behave like ascetics once they have the chance to consume more.

They will continue to consume, not at a minimum level. The more people there are then the less likely they are to be able to attain a higher economic level. Right now, we are depleting the oceans. We are overfishing.

In Africa, most of the cause of deforestation is subsistence farming. They cut down trees, need more fields as the population grows but the fields might not last very long (erosion, depletion of soil).

5. Jacobsen: I agree with you. On that strain of the progressive movement or their arguments, I disagree with them. I agree with the arguments and evidence that population and overpopulation is problem number one.

It relates to another problem of our time, which is climate change.

Weld: China in absolute terms produces more greenhouses gases than the US. It has the population. Some pollution in places in China is unbelievable. They do not have the same environmental protections [Laughing] as we do.

I guess protestors can be more easily dealt with by the Chinese government.

6. Jacobsen: [Laughing] If we look at some of the leaders, some would be the Tanzanian leader. It would be the religious leaders of theocratic states.

It would also be some rising in Western Europe and North America with a certain zeal, tendency toward to authoritarian thinking, and xenophobia with attempts to try and return women to the home.

Weld: What is happening in Europe now, and starting to happen in Canada, there is too much immigration before integration; the population is not happy with it, with some of the cultural things happening. They are starting to react.

With the massive immigration in Australia, in Britain, in the US, it does not benefit the people economically. We do not need this amount of immigration from an economic perspective. It benefits developers. It benefits bankers who get more mortgages. It benefits some businesses who get cheap labour. They have strong political influence.

Also, politicians want the ethnic vote. One way to do it through more immigration. It is what Mulroney’s Immigration Minister, Barbara Jean McDougall, did when she vastly increased the amount of immigration coming to Canada to a minimum of 250,000 per year.

Every government has done this. (Justin) Trudeau upped it. Finance Minister Bill Morneau pointed out young people face a job insecurity problem. If young people are having trouble and immigrants are too, why bring in vastly more? There is no justification for doing this.

Immigration has not lowered the average age. Because we bring in such a large number of immigrants (including parents in the family reunification category). This has been shown by several studies and known for a long time. But the issue of “our aging population” is continually brought up as an argument for more immigration.

If immigrants cannot get a decent job, and get more in public services than they pay back in government taxes, and two mainstream economists estimated this at $30 billion per year, how are they going to pay our pensions?

We have Canada’s policy of mass migration benefitting a few and the costs are borne by all. They include more congestion, more smog in cities, lost time in traffic, and so on.

7. Jacobsen: What would be a rational approach to immigration policy for societies that already have a lot of infrastructures?

Weld: Our infrastructure is under stress. You can see that in big cities including Vancouver, Montreal, and Ottawa. I can see the quality of the roads going down. We keep increasing the population. But we need to put more into infrastructure because they are being used more.

There is a lot of pressure on infrastructure. We should have balanced migration. There is no reason that we should be constantly increasing the population. When is it going to be enough, when we have 1.3 billion like China? The argument about big space is bogus. Because much of Canada is chilly and mostly rock like the Canadian Shield.

We should be realistic and incorporate ecological considerations. We should help people where we are. Whenever we bring an immigrant to Canada, we spend a lot of money on that person; we could spend more on people in place, including refugees – help them where they are and help them return to cultures more familiar to them.

Basically, we are finding all excuses to increase the population. The Prime Minister says, “We are strong because of diversity.” No sociological studies support that. In fact, they show there is less cohesion in mixed neighbourhoods.

Robert Putnam’s study (E Pluribus Unum, 2007) found that. Putnam is liberal. He was dismayed by his findings. He could not find confounding factors that changed his results. Whatever he did, his conclusions were the same.

There is no need to increase our population. We should support countries – not Tanzania – that are trying to implement rational family planning policies.

Population control has become a dirty phrase. Norman Borlaug, who launched the Green Revolution, which saved India from starvation that Paul Ehrlich predicted, said the problem of hunger will not be won until the people working for food production and those working for population control work together.

He recognized that a continually growing population will run out of food. We are turning Earth into a feedlot for humanity, in Paul Ehrlich’s words. I think it is what we are doing. We are cutting down trees and making forests into fields.

Everything for human consumption. Even green energy, like these miles of solar panels. That is not a place where birds can nest, or Cariboo can run.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] President, Population Institute Canada.

[2] Individual Publication Date: October 22, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/weld-one; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Dr. Madeline Weld (Part One) [Online].October 2018; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/weld-one.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, October 22). An Interview with Dr. Madeline Weld (Part One). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/weld-one.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Dr. Madeline Weld (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, October. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/weld-one>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Dr. Madeline Weld (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/weld-one.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Dr. Madeline Weld (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (October 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/weld-one.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Dr. Madeline Weld (Part One)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/weld-one>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Dr. Madeline Weld (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/weld-one.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Dr. Madeline Weld (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):October. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/weld-one>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Dr. Madeline Weld (Part One) [Internet]. (2018, October; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/weld-one.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-10-22

An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Six)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: October 22, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,233

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Dr. Christopher DiCarlo is an Author, Educator, and Philosopher of Science and Ethics. He discusses: in vitro meats; ignorance and getting along; and final thoughts.

Keywords: author, Christopher DiCarlo, educator, philosopher.

An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo: Author, Educator, Philosopher of Science and Ethics (Part Six)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Dr. Christopher DiCarlo: Do you know what in vitro meats are?

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Are those the ones that are grown in a lab or on sheets? They are thinking of doing it like with 3D farming with plants but with meat cells or muscle cells.

DiCarlo: Yes, exactly, but it is all private, no government in Canada or the states are putting any money into this. We know why. You are going to piss off the dairy, pork, and chicken producers. Agriculture is huge money. A lot of money went into that hamburger. It costs 250 grand to make one burger.

Obviously, they have to raise their capital by any means. In a perfect world, if we can create in vitro meats, animals do not have to suffer. It makes sense to me. If we have the technology to do this, then do we have to continue the mass slaughter of other sentient beings in order to continue to feed us?

I do not see why especially if we can control for the disease. We do not need hormones, steroids, or antibiotics. It all comes down to taste. In vitro meats are at a stage right now, where they are not particularly favourable. I cannot hold people’s feet to the fire. They make their own choices. We have to evolve culturally.

I hope that at some point in the future humans get a level of technology, where it is pretty much Star Trek. I would like an 8-ounce steak and want to talk to the replicator. It makes you the 8-ounce steak and no animal ever has to suffer.

We can transform matter and energy in a way so that we are a lot more compassionate to living, breathing, and sentient beings. We are not there yet; we are still in post-caveman days. So, how we should behave?

The supernaturalists have top-down Divine Command Theory and the naturalists have a ground-up ethics. Let’s figure out the best possible mechanisms we can.

That is why we developed Relational Systemics. If we wish to treat people fairly, we have to take in as many considerations within systemic relationships as we possibly can: “What is to come of me?”

This works in 2 different ways: “What is to come of me as I am alive? What is to become of me in my lifetime? What choices do I make that result in certain consequences? And what is to become of me after I die?”

So, the supernaturalist, obviously, what is to become of me in this life, it depends what type of person you’ve been in the eyes of God. That will determine what type of fate you are going to have while living and after your death. A naturalist says, “I have no idea what is to become of me after I die. I do not have any compelling evidence to think that I may continue.”

However, if you are a good skeptic and a good naturalist, you would say, “I remain agnostic.” Now some people, some hardcore positive atheists might say, “You are belying your worldview, your ideology, as an atheist thinking that something could possibly happen after you die,” to which my son and I had this conversation for years.

We know so little about multiple universes. We know so little about time and probability. Let’s say you and I die simultaneously, we both get struck by lightning. Somehow, where you are and where I am, you and I both die.

We get buried and cremated, and whatnot. Our lives end. It seems like our lives have ended forever. My students keep saying, “But I cannot even imagine what that would be like!” I said, “Really? Do you remember what it was like 10 years before you were born? It would be like that.”

“So, you could imagine what that is like and after you die you won’t be able to imagine it,” Socrates said this. He said, “Life is either going to continue or it is not.” If it does not, you are not around to piss and moan about it.

That makes this life all the more important: get as much out of this life as you can without harming others, get as much as you can out of this life as possible.

Then my son and I thought, “There does not have to be a God in order for us to somehow have our existence continue after we die. All there has to be is enough time, an infinite amount of time and an infinite amount of possibility.”

If those two things exist, then it is theoretically possible that you and I are going to have this conversation again at some point in time.

Given an infinite amount of time and the multiple worlds/multiple universe theory, and based on how little we know about aspects of causality, it is theoretically possible that all of the components, all of the stardust that has made you and me, Scott Jacobsen and Chris DiCarlo, have somehow come together in particular ways; I am saying, “You cannot imagine the amount of time.”

Trillions of years are unfathomable to us. However, to a dead person, the passage will be instantaneous. Because if consciousness ceases, and if they are somehow regenerated, their matter reproduces that consciousness to recognize themselves in some other way again or even in not in different ways, then death will be an illusion.

Either we will never experience consciousness again, ever, or we will, but it will take a shit load of time to materialize.

When people come to me and say, “Atheism is so bleak.” I say, “No, you are selling it short. Reflect on your own ignorance. Our ignorance is so incredibly vast as to the true nature of what is actually going on there should there be an actual multiverse.”

I try to take my students from the level of subatomic physics to String Theory all the way through to the levels of cosmology and the expanse of our known universe. The 13.7 billion years that our Big Bang period. To the fact, that now M-theory maintains this may not be our only universe.

There may be an infinite number of universes. This bubble structure or bubble theory/model that they have outside of our own.

If that is the case, this is what Sagan talked about in terms of awe. I am in awe of the natural universe and what could actually be going on with my puny little brain. My insignificant little being in this magnificent huge backyard of a universe that we have.

So, I try to tell people, “What is to come of me?” Ultimately, I have no idea. However, if the answer is nothing, and if I cannot figure out a way to upload my brain as a digital copy like the great Kurzweil thinks we can do in 40 years, then that is it.

However, if I can gain immortality that way, by uploading my brain, digitally copying it then downloading it into an autonomous titanium robotic exoskeletal being, I would do that tomorrow if I could.

The last debate I had with this Christian guy. So, people told me there were Christians in the lobby crying because of what I had said and that it woke them up. That, maybe, that is all there is to the universe that it is all ultimately meaningless.

But like I said, we have what I call Proximal Meaning. Our lives are short and meaningful here. However, in the expanse of space and over an infinite period of time, we are nothing. We are nothing. That affects a lot of Christians. It made some of them cry, which I did not want to do. I do not want people to feel hurt.

But suffering is inevitable and even epistemic emancipation can put people through times in which they are going to suffer because you are trying to think in ways your brain has never allowed you to think before.

So, I try to tell people if the universe is ultimately meaningless, and if that is all there is and when we die that is it, then you are not going to change it.

You are not going to change through thought or through your actions the way the universe actually is. So, why do not we all live as if this may be the only life we have, okay? And whatever happens afterward, as long as you live a life, as a life as your systemic self will allow you to live, then you have nothing to worry about.

You have nothing to worry about. Try to make the world where you are a little bit better for others, especially if you can pay it forward. If you can do that, then I think that is about as much as we can expect of you given what the state of your brain is.

You are not a serial killer; you are not someone who is incapable of acting that way. Enjoy this life as much as you possibly can because we have absolutely no idea how long we have to live at any given time. What’s around the next corner? What’s hurtling through space that might be headed towards this planet?

What idiot might be elected president who has their finger on the button of how many nuclear warheads? None of it is certain so appreciate what we have and try to live the best life you can.

This is what Socrates said, “There is nothing more important than thinking about how we ought to live.” I think you and I have come back full circle to where this conversation began.

2. Jacobsen: Any thoughts or feelings in conclusion?

DiCarlo: I am hopeful for education that it will take a turn out of this bizarre, post-modernist, wacky notion that no ideas are any better than any other ideas.

That we can actually see for ourselves that, at least in terms of pragmatic benefit, that there are better and worse ways of thinking based on how it is we wish to behave towards others.

If we are to be compassionate beings, not to ourselves but to other species as well, then hopefully the turn is coming now, where people can have meaningful dialogue and can be diametrically opposed to one another but see the importance of still getting along.

That is the final message we take from critical thinking and education. We are always going to disagree, but it is extremely important to know why we have these disagreements and still figure out reconciliation techniques to be able to get along. So, that is what I am very hopeful for in the future.

Jacobsen: Thank you for your time, Dr. DiCarlo.

DiCarlo: No problem, thank you.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Author; Educator; Philosopher; Fellow, Society of Ontario Freethinkers; Board Advisor, Freethought TV; Advisory Fellow, Center for Inquiry Canada.

[2] Individual Publication Date: October 22, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-six; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Six) [Online].October 2018; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-six.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, October 22). An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Six). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-six.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Six). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, October. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-six>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Six).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-six.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Six).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (October 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-six.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Six)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-six>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Six)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-six.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Six).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):October. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-six>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Six) [Internet]. (2018, October; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-six.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-10-22

An Interview with Tim Moen (Part Two)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: October 22, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,492

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Tim Moen is the President of the Libertarian Party of Canada. He discusses: activism and the Libertarian Party of Canada; election and feelings; media exposure and responsibility to the public; and great wisdom from the Lord of the Rings.

Keywords: Libertarianism, Libertarian Party of Canada, Tim Moen.

An Interview with Tim Moen: Leader, Libertarian Party of Canada (Part Two)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What were your early involvements in activism and politics prior to the Libertarian Party of Canada?

Tim Moen: I started writing and expressing a political opinion about a decade ago. I didn’t have much of a political opinion before and generally went along with TV pundits like Bill Maher and his 90’s show “Politically Incorrect”. About 10 years ago I went through a period of self-exploration where I examined my faith and realized I had not reasoned my way into this belief system.

I realized that if I had been born in another country my view about the nature of reality would be completely different and I’d be worshipping a completely different deity. My beliefs had been a product of my environment, my culture, my family more than anything else. This was very disconcerting and left me feeling like I couldn’t trust that many beliefs and I started examining my worldview through the lens of skeptic trying to parse out truth from falsehood.

Examining political beliefs through this lens caused me to realize that politics was essentially a set of implicit and explicit claims about the morality of using force. I started blogging, making videos and appearing on podcasts to promote clearer thinking and skepticism towards extraordinary claims about government and the use of force.

In 2009 the Province embarked on centralizing control of Emergency Medical Services taking control away from communities and local practitioners. My first foray into the political sphere was appearing as a panellist at a local town hall meeting trying to alert the public to what we could clearly see was going to hurt them.

In the fall of 2013, I wrote an article about my experience working with Neil Young on a film project about the Oil Sands and what I saw as some hypocrisy and unclear thinking. The article went viral and was noticed by some libertarian activists who started trying to convince me to run as a candidate for the Libertarian Party of Canada (LPoC) in the 2015 general election. I was very resistant to that idea at first, I saw involvement in politics as implicitly supporting an idea I found immoral, but ultimately they convinced me that I’d be missing out on an opportunity to connect a lot of people to important ideas.

A few days after committing to run for office in 2015 my MP resigned and I was thrown into a by-election in early 2014 with zero clues about how to even file candidacy paperwork or run a campaign. I had a number of volunteers sign up to help me including a guy who moved across the country to volunteer for my campaign. We threw a lot of things at the wall including a meme that said, “I want gay married couples to be able to protect their marijuana plants with guns.”

That meme went viral and got me a lot of attention. I was interviewed on Fox, CNN and “This Hour Has 22 Minutes” made fun of me. This wave of attention led to me being nominated for the leader of the LPoC in May 2014.

One of my goals as a leader was to expand the party and get more people involved. We worked hard for a year and a half and had our best result in 43 years in the past election.

2. Jacobsen: Following election to the leadership, what were the feelings for you?

Moen: I felt very honoured to be given the trust of my fellow party members. This was followed by an immediate weight on my shoulders as I came to realize the fact that I carried a responsibility to be a competent caretaker and communicator of a message we all felt tremendous passion for.

3. Jacobsen: You have moderate exposure in the media. What responsibilities come with this public recognition?

Moen: Whenever you start getting a bigger audience there is a temptation to tell people what they want to hear. This is particularly true when you are a politician who is in the business of trying to win popularity contests. This is why so many politicians seem like vacuous and soulless caricatures of what voters want rather than their authentic selves. It is understandable, it’s really cool to be held in high esteem and have adoring fans who see you as the answer to all their problems and it really sucks being the villain that everybody hates and be seen as the antithesis to everything good.

I understood this when I agreed to get involved in politics and it was a real concern. I was really concerned about this toxic pull to bury my authentic self in exchange for popularity. In fact, I wear a replica of the Lord of the Rings ring of power to remind myself of this corrupting influence.

So with all that said the responsibility that comes with public recognition is to hold on to my humanity, my authentic self, to not portray myself as something I’m not. This is first and foremost a responsibility to my self, then my family and friends, and finally as a responsibility to the public. Then there is also an incredible responsibility to my party and people who I speak on behalf of to present the message that is so important to all of us in the most genuine, authentic, and grounded way possible. The by-product of speaking from an authentic, grounded place is that the message has much more integrity and is far more difficult to dismiss. Our message can seem shocking to some people and I think it’s important to be sympathetic and connected with listeners as I am delivering the message.

4. Jacobsen: What great wisdom comes from Lord of the Rings, besides insights into the potential corrupting nature of power, for you?

Moen: Power should only be entrusted to those who view it as a burden not as a tool to achieve some noble end. I think it also provides a path forward for fellowship and cooperation among dramatically different cultures. In todays divisive political and cultural milieu, it offers a demonstration that different cultures can be against globalism or imperialism, the idea that a particular culture ought to be the dominant one, and that they can work together for the common goal of guarding against the desire to dominate while maintaining their own cultural identity. It reveals that real leadership and fellowship emerges when courage is combined with a servant’s heart.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Leader, Libertarian Party of Canada.

[2] Individual Publication Date: October 22, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/moen-two; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Tim Moen (Part Two) [Online].October 2018; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/moen-two.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, October 22). An Interview with Tim Moen (Part Two). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/moen-two.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Tim Moen (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, October. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/moen-two>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Tim Moen (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/moen-two.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Tim Moen (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (October 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/moen-two.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Tim Moen (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/moen-two>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Tim Moen (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/moen-two.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Tim Moen (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):October. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/moen-two>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Tim Moen (Part Two) [Internet]. (2018, October; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/moen-two.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-10-18

Ask Tara 2 — Women’s Rights in the US, Pornography, and Feminist Religion

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee: Tara Abhasakun

Numbering: Issue 1: Inaugural Issue

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: Question Time

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: October 18, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,037

Keywords: feminist religion, pornography, Tara Abhasakun, US.

Tara Abhasakun is a colleague. We have written together before. I reached out because of the good journalism by her. I wanted to get some expert opinion on women’s rights, journalism, and so on. I proposed a series. She accepted. Abahasakun studied history at The College of Wooster. Much of her coursework was in Middle East history.

After graduating Tara started blogging about the rights of women, LGBT, and minorities in MENA. She is currently a freelance writer. She is of Thai, Iranian, and European descent. She has lived in Bangkok and San Francisco. Here we talk about women’s rights in the US, pornography, and feminist religion.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What are the main attacks on women’s rights in the United States?

Tara Abhasakun: I think the most timely issue is the Kavanaugh confirmation. Kavanaugh was confirmed without a full FBI investigation into his possible sexual assaults of three women. On top of that, as we all know, he was nominated by a president who claimed to have grabbed women “by the pussy” so there’s that too. I don’t even know what else to say about either of these things, because they are both so utterly ridiculous, yet they’re apparently both possible, and real.

Jacobsen: The socio-political Left, in general, view pornography with mixed emotional and intellectual evaluations. One branch sees this as legitimate paid work and, in some way, a means for economic independence of some women. Another view argues these are abuses of and exploitation of women. Still, others argue pornography is a branch of sexual liberation, and so on.

People have admired female forms for millennia. They have abused and degraded women for the same time. Also, these have been a basis of economics and trade, even with women as chattel or property to be bought and sold — including for sexual slavery.

Pornography reflects these histories and human propensities as if a prism for renewed reflection of ethics. What seems like the best position to take on pornography in the modern period?

Abhasakun: Firstly, let me acknowledge that there may be many women who truly enjoy working in the porn industry. I think the issue, however, is what “consent” truly means. When there is money involved, and someone knows that they will be paid to perform certain sexual acts, it means that they may feel pressured to perform those sexual acts in order to maintain their livelihood. Is that really consent?

One could argue that this same logic could be applied to any job, and that we all have to have a job, however, I believe that sex is different because sex is something that we usually acknowledge must be wholeheartedly consented to, unlike a desk job in which many people think “I don’t really want to go to work today, but I have to.” In ordinary sexual situations in which no money is involved, we acknowledge that people must give full, enthusiastic consent to sex, and not feel pressured into it. I have a hard time believing that everyone who works in the porn industry is always giving their full, enthusiastic consent, when there is money being dangled in front of them.

I have begun to hear more about feminist porn, and porn being done in more ethical ways. I have not done much research on this, and therefore don’t want to give a definitive answer on what I believe the right answer is. This notion of “feminist porn” however, I want to believe that it’s possible. As of right now, I’m just not entirely sure of how this is being facilitated.

Jacobsen: Following the question on religion and the incorporation of feminism, how might religions incorporate feminism? How can arguments for a higher power help with this?

Abhasakun: I don’t think that belief in a higher power can exactly helps, in fact, clearly, belief in a higher power is used to abuse women.

And yet, the fact of the matter is that many people cannot help but believe in a higher power. Many people have had experiences in which they were very, very likely to die, and something that can only be described as miraculous happened, and they didn’t die. When things like this happen to people, it’s often impossible to convince them that there is not a higher power.

If people are going to believe in a higher power, here’s what needs to happen:

People of faith must begin by looking at their holy texts from objective standpoints. This means that secular education is crucial. All children must be taught to simply read texts, and then come to conclusions, rather than approaching any text with a preconceived idea that it is from God.

People can then begin to view religious texts from a historical standpoint. They can begin to think, “Maybe the treatment of women in this holy text exists because this was written in a backward time period.” Then the question can become “What can I draw from this book that is useful today, and what do I need to discard?” From there, the understanding of God will hopefully move away from a judgemental guy scowling down at all of us, to a force that permeates through the universe.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Tara.

Image Credit: Tara Abhasakun.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and Question Time by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com and https://medium.com/question-time

Copyright 

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time 2012-2020. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2018-10-18

Ask Tara 1 — The Crossroads of Thailand, Iran, America, Journalism, and Women’s Rights

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee: Tara Abhasakun

Numbering: Issue 1: Inaugural Issue

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: Question Time

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: October 17, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 984

Keywords: LGBT, Tara Abhasakun, United States, women’s rights.

Tara Abhasakun is a colleague. We have written together before. I reached out because of the good journalism by her. I wanted to get some expert opinion on women’s rights, journalism, and so on. I proposed a series. She accepted. Abahasakun studied history at The College of Wooster. Much of her coursework was in Middle East history.

After graduating Tara started blogging about the rights of women, LGBT, and minorities in MENA. She is currently a freelance writer. She is of Thai, Iranian, and European descent. She has lived in Bangkok and San Francisco. Here we talk about the main attacks on women’s rights in the US, pornography and ethics, and incorporation of feminism into religion.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What are the main attacks on women’s rights in the United States?

Tara Abhasakun: I think the most timely issue is the Kavanaugh confirmation. Kavanaugh was confirmed without a full FBI investigation into his possible sexual assaults of three women. On top of that, as we all know, he was nominated by a president who claimed to have grabbed women “by the pussy” so there’s that too. I don’t even know what else to say about either of these things, because they are both so utterly ridiculous, yet they’re apparently both possible, and real.

Jacobsen: The socio-political Left, in general, view pornography with mixed emotional and intellectual evaluations. One branch sees this as legitimate paid work and, in some way, a means for economic independence of some women. Another view argues these are abuses of and exploitation of women. Still, others argue pornography is a branch of sexual liberation, and so on.

People have admired female forms for millennia. They have abused and degraded women for the same time. Also, these have been a basis of economics and trade, even with women as chattel or property to be bought and sold — including for sexual slavery.

Pornography reflects these histories and human propensities as if a prism for renewed reflection of ethics. What seems like the best position to take on pornography in the modern period?

Abhasakun: Firstly, let me acknowledge that there may be many women who truly enjoy working in the porn industry. I think the issue, however, is what “consent” truly means. When there is money involved, and someone knows that they will be paid to perform certain sexual acts, it means that they may feel pressured to perform those sexual acts in order to maintain their livelihood. Is that really consent?

One could argue that this same logic could be applied to any job, and that we all have to have a job, however, I believe that sex is different because sex is something that we usually acknowledge must be wholeheartedly consented to, unlike a desk job in which many people think “I don’t really want to go to work today, but I have to.” In ordinary sexual situations in which no money is involved, we acknowledge that people must give full, enthusiastic consent to sex, and not feel pressured into it. I have a hard time believing that everyone who works in the porn industry is giving their full, enthusiastic consent, when there is money being dangled in front of them.

I have begun to hear more about feminist porn, and porn being done in more ethical ways. I have not done much research on this, and therefore don’t want to give a definitive answer on what I believe the right answer is. This notion of “feminist porn” however, I want to believe that it’s possible. As of right now, I’m just not entirely sure of how this is being facilitated.

Jacobsen: Following the question on religion and the incorporation of feminism, how might religions incorporate feminism? How can arguments for a higher power help with this?

Abhasakun: People of faith must begin by looking at their holy texts from objective standpoints. This means that secular education is crucial. All children must be taught to simply read texts, and then come to conclusions, rather than approaching any text with a preconceived idea that it is from God.

People can then begin to view religious texts from a historical standpoint. They can begin to think, “Maybe the treatment of women in this holy text exists because this was written in a backward time period.” Then the question can become “What can I draw from this book that is useful today, and what do I need to discard?” From there, the understanding of God will hopefully move away from a judgemental guy scowling down at all of us, to a force that permeates through the universe.

If the understanding of God remains the same as it is for so many religious communities now, then it will be best to lose God entirely. I just happen to think that many people do still need a belief or hope in a higher power.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Tara.

Image Credit: Tara Abhasakun.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and Question Time by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com and https://medium.com/question-time

Copyright 

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time 2012-2020. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2018-10-17

Sara Al Iraqiya on Bad and Good Writing

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee: Sara Al Iraqiya

Numbering: Issue 1: Inaugural Issue

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: Question Time

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: October 17, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,335

Keywords: Iraqi-American, Islam, Sara Al Iraqiya, writing.

Sara Al Iraqiya is a USA-based 2nd generation Iraqi-American social scientist, writer, and activist. Raised under Sunni Islam and a survivor of attempted radicalization in American mosques and centers — she has both lived experience as well as academic experience with Islam. By age 20, after gaining the freedom to live autonomously and exercising her right to protect herself, she left Islam altogether. Sara aims to educate her fellow Americans and lovers of Western civilization on the horrors, inequalities, and injustices that occur in Western-based mosques and Islamic centers. Sara has been published in two languages (and counting). A world traveler, she briefly lived in France, Jordan, and even Cuba in order to complete her Masters of Arts in Global Affairs specializing in Global Culture and Society. Sara Al Iraqiya has been published in Conatus News and Spain’s ALDE Group.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: When it comes to the written word, when did you get a start? How did this develop over time into education and professional life?

Sara Al Iraqiya: As soon as I could take a pen to paper. I recall a project in elementary school where we learned about the concept of the biography versus the autobiography. We were asked to write a “tentative autobiography” up to retirement age. I left the graded assignment which was bound like a small booklet in my family home. My dad read it. Since that day, he encouraged me to not only continue writing but to share it with others. He did not know I enjoyed writing up until then. His sister is also a writer and she and I have a special bond — particularly when it comes to our passion for global human rights and of course the cliché “strange writer habits” that we share.

Jacobsen: What seems to demarcate a good and a bad writer, and a great writer from the two of those?

Al Iraqiya: I want to be corny and say there is no such thing as a good writer or a bad writer but I also want to answer your question. Perhaps a bad writer is one who commits plagiarism — I really have zero tolerance for that. Also, I understand that many folks use ghost writers, but that concept has just gone over my head. A great writer takes his or her time. They feel emotionally and perhaps in a sense spiritually moved by words. A great writer is either extremely afraid or extremely unafraid of his or her feelings. The point is to not be afraid to record those sentiments and share them with the world. These are simply my own personal observations.

Jacobsen: We did an interview before. What else is new? What are some new initiatives or projects ongoing at the moment for you?

Al Iraqiya: I am a bit low key when discussing these things. I work in television which is interesting because I do not own a television! I stay posted on the global liberty movement. I notice the liberty movement brings in many different folks with differing proposals to increase freedom and I find it intellectually beneficial to hear from as many of them as I can. Even if I disagree with them. Perhaps especially if I disagree with them.

I moved to New York City — the Big Apple! I absolutely love it because I can be fucking weird and it’s normal here, you know? The city is full of candor. Washington, D.C. was a bit uppity but again I will be corny and say going back to D.C. is very sentimental for me and I enjoy my frequent visits back to my nation’s capital. It is a place I called home for 20+ years. I also love going into the historical outskirts of D.C. such as Mount Vernon. It’s nice to get away from the incessant city noise — but I always have to be back where the action is! I cannot stay away.

Jacobsen: What article are you most proud of writing, and why?

Al Iraqiya: “Muslim-American Femicide and the Intersectional Feminist Enablers” for Conatus News. Because it pissed people off. But many of those same people actually took a step back, questioned their own beliefs, and thought critically about why their visceral reaction was adverse. Thought provoking — I think every writer wants to be thought provoking. Also, it lit a fire under the asses of feminists who did not realize their own bigotry, hypocrisy, and yes — misogyny. I wrote that article for my missing friend. I wrote it for the young women who died for their authenticity. I wrote it for the women who continue to suffer in silence. I also received interesting criticisms which I welcome. Come to me with respect and I am all ears. Civil discourse is not dead!

Jacobsen: Men can be the source of a lot of inspiring work and a lot of horrifying catastrophes. What can men do, and women encourage, for a healthier sense of masculinity for boys becoming men and guys becoming more mature men?

Al Iraqiya: It was the men in my life who inspired me to be the woman I am today. Male family members, male friends, and male mentors. What they all had in common, when I was sort of an isolated walking stereotype of a writer, was “Sara you need to get out there!” They really pumped me up! I cannot thank the wonderful men in my life enough.

What all of the aforementioned men in my life have in common is a high level of success due to their work ethic. As for boys becoming men and men becoming more mature men — the advice I can give regarding healthy masculinity from a woman’s perspective is to embrace your masculinity in a way that makes the most sense to you.

Some men embrace what many call a “feminine” side. Why are we calling it that? Some examples of men who have been described as “feminine” would be artists who incorporate striking and flamboyant physical appearances such as David Bowie, Prince, and Freddie Mercury but I say this is still masculinity. Because it is a male doing it. Merely existing is masculinity. All three were go-getters and trailblazers for their time and place. They were “out there!” Masculinity is not all about being rugged, rough, and tough. It is about vision, determination, and innovation.

Too often I’ve seen men from certain cultural or religious enclaves where there is a pressure to — and I’ll be frank — there is a pressure in those communities to treat women like garbage in order to be considered a so-called “real man.” This is detrimental to something very important for a man’s growth — his relationships with women. You have to take a step back from any toxic communities and practice intellectual autonomy. It is the most precious thing we as free human beings have. I think the healthiest thing a man can do is think for himself. Stay away from counterproductive modes of thought. Just act natural.

Jacobsen: Thank you!

Al Iraqiya: Thank you for interviewing me, Scott. Anytime.

Image Credit: Sara Al Iraqiya.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and Question Time by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com and https://medium.com/question-time

Copyright 

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time 2012-2020. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2018-10-17

Ask Charlotte 2 — Initiative for Initiatives

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee: Charlotte Littlewood

Numbering: Issue 1: Inaugural Issue

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: Question Time

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: October 17, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,106

Keywords: Become the Voice CIC, Charlotte Littlewood, extremism, radicalisation.

Charlotte Littlewood is the Founding Director of Become The Voice CIC. A grass roots youth centred community interest company that she has built in response to the need to tackle hate, extremism and radicalisation within communities and online.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: To be involved in activist work to humanitarian efforts, it takes an intrinsic level of motivation. Indeed, the focus and perseverance need to be high as well. Finance cannot be the motivating factor. It will have to be ethics. What drives you?

Charlotte Littlewood: So, from a very young age, I was interested in human rights, and what we can do to protect humanity from gross violations of human rights. At school, I was a Holocaust memorial ambassador. I did a law degree with the aim of working in human rights. Whilst doing the law degree, the war in Syria broke out. There was very much a sense of the next human rights issue being around a clash of civilization between East and West, and cultures and religion, rather than states and state power.

I started reading and learning Arabic. I started reading the Quran as well. I come from an atheist background but then I took a big interest in faith and religion in university. I took an interest in Christianity and Islam. I was then equipped for a job in cohesion and integration work — working with faiths and minority groups. Eventually, It led me to start my own community interest company in that. That has always been my drive. It is to tackle human rights abuses and stand for minority rights abuses but from a standpoint of bringing us all together and cohesion.

I don’t work on human rights from the perspective that we should put minorities above everyone else. No matter what they’re believing in or action they’re involved in. It is involving everyone on the same level, bringing everyone together, and making sure no one’s rights are violated. For instance, I would not work with a minority group that believed homosexuals should be thrown off the cliff and stoned to death simply because they are a minority group — as we have seen in a shift with some leftwing thinking.

We are pro-individual liberty and the right to choose sexuality. If you take a key tenet like that, it is about bringing everyone aboard with that way of thinking and protecting those people’s human rights rather than standing with a minority over everyone. That is my belief system. That is what I felt is very important and needed to be done to protect the world from future genocides and huge atrocities against any kind of group. It is bringing us together on the central message of cohesion and belonging togetherness.

Jacobsen: How do you overcome the inevitable setbacks in the process of founding and growing an organization — noting, of course, BTV was started in January 2018?

Littlewood: It is important, to note. We are very, very young. We are only just developing our funding strategy. We had some bits while in Palestine. But we need a more sustainable model. We are working with Think Try Do, which gives free support to Exeter alumna students to build their businesses and social enterprises. They are helping with being more product focused and meeting with schools around the products, getting an idea of what people’s needs and wants are, getting a wishlist in essence, and then matching that with funds to help pay for the work to be done if the school needs it.

We are working with that model for our products. What is needed? Will the funds cover the need? With regard to Palestine, which is a big project that we would like to return to again, we have funding meetings from October 20th to October 24th with thinktanks, philanthropists, and trusts, they will hear our report from the Palestine Project (just finished) and our proposals moving forward.

That is really exciting. But at the moment, it is about building out core objectives and core products, matching what needs and products with have with appropriate funds, and using what we can including free tools — Think Try Do has been useful and then using what other free human resources we can. So, one of my directors is good online. She built the website and doing that for free. It is under the knowledge of paid roles when we get some funding.

My other director coming back to Palestine once we have a project; he will help with the bids and funding. it is about passionate people willing to invest their time, they are also able to put being a director on their CV, which is good. It is getting whatever free support that you can get. I set myself a goal. It is about being realistic. If I haven’t be funded by January or haven’t got the Palestine project funded by a philanthropist or a trust, then I will shift a lot more of the responsibility of the CIC to the directors.

One has a part-time job. One is a masters student; financially, both are comfortable and can do it in their spare time. For me, it is full-time. However, I am optimistic. The meetings for October are promising, I am hoping to talk with you again after that time, to see how it has gone. It can give some insight into whether what we have done is successful. If it successful, it means that we will have our first successful money-raising after 7 months. A lot of CRCs and charities do not see the first bit of significant money for a year.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Charlotte.

Image Credit: Charlotte Littlewood.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and Question Time by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com and https://medium.com/question-time

Copyright 

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time 2012-2020. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2018-10-15

Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Erik Haereid and Rick Rosner (Part Three)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: October 8, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,997

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Rick Rosner and I conduct a conversational series entitled Ask A Genius on a variety of subjects through In-Sight Publishing on the personal and professional website for Rick. Rick exists on the World Genius Directory listing as the world’s second highest IQ at 192 based on several ultra-high IQ tests scores developed by independent psychometricians. Erik Haereid earned a score at 185, on the N-VRA80. Both scores on a standard deviation of 15. A sigma of ~6.13 for Rick – a general intelligence rarity of 1 in 2,314,980,850 – and ~5.67 for Erik – a general intelligence rarity of 1 in 136,975,305. Of course, if a higher general intelligence score, then the greater the variability in, and margin of error in, the general intelligence scores because of the greater rarity in the population. This amounts to a joint interview or conversation with Erik Haereid, Rick Rosner, and myself.

Keywords: actuarial science, America, Erik Haereid, Norway, Rick Rosner, statistics, Scott Douglas Jacobsen.

Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Erik Haereid and Rick Rosner (Part Three)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Let us talk about good and evil, what defines good? What defines evil? Do these terms suffice in the representation of the reality? 

Or do these terms carry metaphysics and ethical baggage, which detracts from the reality of proper notions of morality?  In a discussion on good and evil, we can analyze the topic from multiple levels. 

Let us talk about the small acts and thoughts, the little world of good and evil, then the next session can engage on a micro-level foundation into dialogue on the medium- and macro-level forms of good and evil. 

What seems like quintessential small acts of good and evil – everyday acts of kindness?  Also, as an aside, does religious belief or faith influence personal conceptions of good and evil?

Erik Haereid: I have experienced a strong connection to others based on mutual feelings and empathy.

One time I met a stranger, a man, on the street downtown, crowded with a lot of people walking in their own thoughts, and he looked me in my eyes and I did the same and both smiled warmly.

It was nothing sexual (I am heterosexual, and I guess he was too), only a friendly empathic mutual silent confirmation (“Hey, I see you”). I felt good the rest of the day.

Small actions like that are good because they enhance something in us. We did both, I am quite sure he did too, became better persons after that moment. I smiled warmly to some others, become more tolerant, friendly and inviting.

Most people, at least in my country, do not understand warmly smiles; they misinterpret it in mistrust. Many, not all, of course, think you want something from them that they don’t have or don’t want to give to you.

The mistrust is basic in our culture. We want the kind smiles and friendly behaviour, but we mix things up. Either we make it sexual, or we think it’s irony and contempt. Trust is essential here; you have to believe in yourself to receive good deeds and implement it into your personality and self-image.

When curiosity is replaced by judging people for their genes or personality, we have a problem as a group, if you ask me. Individual freedom has to be supported by respect for every individual in the crowd.

If not, some maybe gain a lot, but society is polarized, and this implies more conflicts. But, as we can see from for instance my country, the lack of winners strangles each individual; you are forced into an average (the average is the winner).

If you are outside the standard, the average tends to attack you. This system creates polarization too; you have to fit into the average to be accepted by the society.

A good deed or thought is when it makes the other person feel better, also in the long-term. It’s trusting in it. We have to believe in the behaviour. And the same with evil actions; it has to be pointed at us, and we have to believe that the person wants to harm us.

A good thought and deed are one that strengthens the other person’s self-esteem and self-image in a way that does not make him, her or them more extreme egocentric (narcissistic). Evilness is the same with the opposite sign.

In this context, I believe that good and evil deeds (and thoughts) have to make perpetual influences on the object’s mentality. If you save a person from drowning, you make changes to that person’s mentality for the rest of his life.

If you make a person feel bad about herself as part of her perpetual self-esteem, you make eternal changes to her mind. A rape is such a deed. Being bystander to for instance a school-killing, too.

The deeds and thoughts have to be meant; deeds, where the outcome is good/bad for the object, is not good/bad deeds if it is not intended to be. If it’s by chance, by impulse, it’s something else. A condition for good deeds is that the sender has empathy with the other person(s).

To hate or scorn someone for their genes and natural behaviour is evil, even though it’s impulsive and one can’t control the impulse at the moment. This is so, I believe because hate and contempt also are products of some nurturing processes.

You can choose to reflect on your impulsive thoughts, feelings and actions. If you nurture your impulses, you act evil/good. The fact that you have impulses doesn’t make them acceptable or true; they can be worked on and changed.

You can blame the forces of evolution, that something is cemented and not possible to change, and then fasten your immediate emotional experiences.

Or you can believe, as I do, in the elasticity of our brains, and that almost everything is possible beyond the present stringent scientific discrimination and reduction; that we in the future with help from AI, nano- and biotechnology will find a way.

It’s easier to act bad and evil, than good. Then you control your feelings. But the price is high; you also teach others to act the same way to you.

I think the best good act and deed one can do is to open up, and not close others out from your feelings or thoughts and invite others to express their feelings and thoughts whatever they are. This is, of course, more difficult than it sounds.

It assumes that we can handle our own feelings among other reactions and that we really are open-minded towards all other people. As soon we start discriminating, in thoughts or actions (normative, not descriptive), the tense and stress among all in that social realm increases.

Rick Rosner: I wanted one more comment on statistics. Now, it is frustrating because I have many, many years of college courses and extensive training in statistics. But statistics is beyond me now, in terms of being able to do it, because statistics is so coding based that I cannot do anything productive in the field anymore. Because I do not code.

I understand statistics and probability super well, but, at this point, I am nothing but a rank amateur because I cannot build databases, statistical apps, or work with statistical apps.

Now, in terms of good and evil, I look at good and evil as the preservation of order versus the destruction of order, order versus chaos. 

Generally, everything is dressed in story and detail, but, basically, when people are fighting for good; they are fighting for the preservation of structure and order and, usually, higher order.

Star Wars is probably our most prominent good versus evil story now. You can see good as being a higher order that includes individuality and liberty, and the ability to do high-level things. That to be fully developed people who are free to pursue their lives.

The Empire is a suppressive force, which will blow up your planet if you defy them. It is a lower level of order. It is draconian and rule-based and is based on a few simple rules.

The people who are in favour of liberty, the Jedi and the Rebels, stand for a higher level of, say, information processing. The ability to look at the world and address it in sophisticated and creative ways rather than having to reduce the world into a few simple rules as The Empire does.

Good versus evil is about higher-level information processing versus chaos and lower level information processing. The increase in information and order in the world is basically good.

To further clarify based on the questions from you, Scott, evil is associated with the destruction of higher order, whether it is killing a living being, where the living being is higher order, or destroying works of art that are reflections of higher order and so on.

These terms carry ethical baggage, sure, because the ideas are usually brought to us within a philosophical framework that is often obsolete to some extent and has developed its own repressive and not innovative characteristics.

For instance, America is based on, or a lot of American politics is rooted in, the Constitution is the highest level of rule-giving order. 

What we have been running into in today’s stupid American politics, the dumber forces in politics trying to justify whatever they do that is reactionary or repressive by saying that it is based on the originalist conception of the Constitution.

That this is immutable. You must let people have as many guns as they want given the Second Amendment to the Constitution. Then people on the Liberal side arguing less persuasively because they do not have the infrastructure and ruthlessness of the Conservative side.

That our understanding of the Constitution must be tempered by 225 years of history. That the Constitution is centuries old and it is not going to adequately address every possible thing. 

So, the Constitution of this embodiment or this symbol of good, but it is obsolete in a lot of ways. So, yes, conceptions of good and evil can have ethical and historical baggage that fuck things up.

[Addendum from Rick.]

As an addendum, I have said this at greater length, and so have a lot of other people elsewhere. To quickly point out the political situation in the US, due to some demographic game playing that began with the Republicans 30/35/40 years ago – before Reagan, well-funded Republican thinktanks began to research how to wrangle voters.

They found that dumb voters are easier to wrangle. The current situation in American politics is the result of one party spending two generations getting better and better at manipulating dumb voters. 

The Republicans, who started out as a respectable major political party, are, now, at their nadir. Because they have become a party of dumb assholes. Once you start herding dumb people, you have to keep going dumber.

You end with a base and elected officials being more and more amoral/immoral. The values that get lost in the demographic push further and further right. To quickly sum up, it is like smokers.

When I was a kid, a huge percentage of adults smoked, probably well over half. It was in planes and restaurants. Planes would be a bit blue with smoke because so many people smoked cigarettes. Nobody thought anything of it.

I worked in a bar in 1980. 2/3rds of the people smoked. The air was blue-ish with smoke. Over the past 30 years, more and more people have gotten the message about how terrible smoking is – for people and animals around them.

What was widely spread around the general population in 1984, the person who smokes in 2018 is more likely to be either a dick or an idiot. They are like, “Fuck you! I will keep smoking.” They either didn’t get the message.

Or if they did, they don’t care. It is a smaller segment of the population. But in a Bayesian way, as that population shrinks, it keeps proportionately more of the idiots and the assholes. That is basically what has happened with the shrinkage of the Republican base.

If people want a more in-depth conversation on gerrymandering and electoral politics, then they can go elsewhere on other things you and I, Scott, have talked about.

Haereid: I have corrected my view on the evolution process; I see it as brutal, not evil. That’s an important distinction. The evolution process seems evil because it (for humans) contains a lot of evil actions, like manipulations that harm others to gain possession. But in a pure form it’s basically honest and egocentric. I clarify this below.

First a short comment on statistics and data. I also think that statistical methods and math will benefit more in the future, not least because of the huge access to data, such as Google and other big companies has. Greater storage capacity, stronger processors, and “infinite” data access (AI) in the computers will make statisticians’ biggest nightmares, not getting enough data, history.

But, I am not aware of how much and where statistics is used today, but know it’s used in many areas (like medicine and psychology).

Back to the topic: I agree that the development and freedom of the individual must be at the center and that we can and should mature to a higher order; as through a Hegelian dialectic.

It is the outcome of a creative, individual free will. This is what I mean when I say that egoism is altruism (see below); that the good exists in individual freedom and not in the appearance of a straightjacket of conformity and normality.

Egoism is altruism in practice (cf. Aristotle’s Eudaimonia); I use altruism in the sense that all actions we make lead to a win-win situation or any other outcome where one or all loses, and where altruistic actions create win-win situations. I do not believe in complete self-sacrifice. Therefore, I do not use the term altruism in the strictest, most rigid sense.

The best example of altruism is when we feel better after doing others well. Since I feel better, I did it for me, even if you also felt better afterwards. Win-win. You could criticize it and say that it is lack of empathy. But I don’t think so, because the feelings and emotions are contagious.

I do not use egoism and altruism as opposites. When we nurture ourselves, according to our own abilities, opportunities, in freedom, we influence others to do the same, and thus society becomes good (theoretically).

Altruism in the usual meaning of the word, i.e. complete self-sacrifice, often leads to the opposite of intentional intent; violence, war, assault, exploitation, pecking order… It may be a good purpose, but by suppressing your own needs and abilities, your own opportunity to get the best out of your life, and be brainwashed to believe that an overall system, a culture, trumps your own preferences and opportunities, you develop evil.

We become evil of being hindered in our individual growth and development (this is also theoretical: of course not all become evil to others, but perhaps to themselves; self-destructive). The sense of belonging is conditional on being allowed to be oneself in that culture.

In Scandinavia we have a well-developed welfare model, something that I’m a fan of to some extent. And we also have a culture that cultivates equality; by nurturing an egalitarian society everyone gets the same possibilities, worth and we get a good community. This is the doctrine. In practice, it’s almost the opposite.

By cultivating differences, people find each other in mutual respect, and then people act good against each other. It’s about accepting the strengths of others, and using them as inspiration. When we focus on the weaknesses of others, we spend our time on others and not our own abilities and opportunities.

In short, it is not about being equal but about equal worth, and that equal worth is created through acceptance and respect of inequalities. This is good.

At a macro level, such as nations and global societies, one should (to act good) prepare for individual freedom, safety net for those who, for various reasons, should be abandoned, general healthcare, police, etc. (welfare model), and the right to be different; being ourselves (since everyone is different).

When the focus is on equality, the culture undermines the individual’s needs; to develop their abilities, talent, opportunities. Thus, people get frustrated and attack each other.

Egoism (in my sense of the term) is about respecting each other, narcissism about not doing so. An egoist knows how to develop his abilities, but also to see what he is capable of and not. A narcissist believes he is God, Lord above others, and that others obey him.

Competition is important to acknowledge and see how far it is possible to develop. You are not competing to make the others worse, but to make the others even better so you have more to aspire after.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Erik Haereid: “About my writing: Most of my journalistic work I did in the pre-Internet-period (80s, 90s), and the articles I have saved are, at best, aged in a box somewhere in the cellar. Maybe I can find some of it, but I don’t think that’s that interesting.

Most of my written work, including crime short stories in A-Magasinet (Aftenposten (one of the main newspapers in Norway, as Nettavisen is)), a second place (runner up) in a nationwide writing contest in 1985 arranged by Aftenposten, and several articles in different newspapers, magazines and so on in the 1980s and early 1990s, is not published online, as far as I can see. This was a decade and less before the Internet, so a lot of this is only on paper.

From the last decade, where I used more time doing other stuff than writing, for instance work, to mention is my book from 2011, the IQ-blog and some other stuff I don’t think is interesting here.

I keep my personal interests quite private. To you, I can mention that I play golf, read a lot, like debating, and 30-40 years and even more kilos ago I was quite sporty, and competed in cross country skiing among other things (I did my military duty in His Majesty The King’s Guard (Drilltroppen)). I have been asked from a couple in the high IQ societies, if I know Magnus Carlsen. The answer is no, I don’t :)”

Haereid has interviewed In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal Advisory Board Member Dr. Evangelos Katsioulis, some select articles include topics on AI in What will happen when the ASI (Artificial superintelligence) evolves; Utopia or Dystopia? (Norwegian), on IQ-measures in 180 i IQ kan være det samme som 150, and on the Norwegian pension system (Norwegian). His book on the winner/loser-society model based on social psychology published in 2011 (Nasjonalbiblioteket), which does have a summary review here.

Erik lives in Larkollen, Norway. He was born in Oslo, Norway, in 1963. He speaks Danish, English, and Norwegian. He is Actuary, Author, Consultant, Entrepreneur, and Statistician. He is the owner of, chairman of, and consultant at Nordic Insurance Administration.

He was the Academic Director (1998-2000) of insurance at the BI Norwegian Business School (1998-2000) in Sandvika, Baerum, Manager (1997-1998) of business insurance, life insurance, and pensions and formerly Actuary (1996-1997) at Nordea in Oslo Area, Norway, a self-employed Actuary Consultant (1996-1997), an Insurance Broker (1995-1996) at Assurance Centeret, Actuary (1991-1995) at Alfa Livsforsikring, novice Actuary (1987-1990) at UNI Forsikring, and a Journalist at Norsk Pressedivisjon.

He earned an M.Sc. in Statistics and Actuarial Sciences from 1990-1991 and a Bachelor’s degree from 1984 to 1986/87 from the University of Oslo. He did some environmental volunteerism with Norges Naturvernforbund (Norwegian Society for the Conservation of Nature), where he was an activist, freelance journalist and arranged ‘Sykkeldagen i Oslo’ twice (1989 and 1990) as well as environmental issues lectures.

He has industry experience in accounting, insurance, and insurance as a broker. He writes in his IQ-blog the online newspaper Nettavisen. He has personal interests in history, philosophy, reading, social psychology, and writing.

He is a member of many high-IQ societies including 4G, Catholiq, Civiq, ELITE, GenerIQ, Glia, Grand, HELLIQ, HRIQ, Intruellect, ISI-S, ISPE, KSTHIQ, MENSA, MilenijaNOUS, OLYMPIQ, Real, sPIqr, STHIQ, Tetra, This, Ultima, VeNuS, and WGD.

Rick G. Rosner: “According to semi-reputable sources, Rick Rosner has the world’s second-highest IQ. He earned 12 years of college credit in less than a year and graduated with the equivalent of 8 majors. He has received 8 Writer’s Guild Award and Emmy nominations, and was named 2013 North American Genius of the Year by The World Genius Registry.

He has written for Remote Control, Crank Yankers, The Man Show, The Emmy Awards, The Grammy Awards, and Jimmy Kimmel Live!. He has also worked as a stripper, a bouncer, a roller-skating waiter, and a nude model. In a TV commercial, Domino’s Pizza named him the World’s Smartest Man. He was also named Best Bouncer in the Denver Area by Westwood Magazine.

He spent the disco era as an undercover high school student. 25 years as a bar bouncer, American fake ID-catcher, 25+ years as a stripper, and nude art model, and nearly 30 years as a writer for more than 2,500 hours of network television.

He lost on Jeopardy!, sued Who Wants to Be a Millionaire over a bad question, and lost the lawsuit. He spent 35+ years on a modified version of Big Bang Theory. Now, he mostly sits around tweeting in a towel. He lives in Los Angeles, California with his wife and daughter.

You can send an email or a direct message via Twitter, or find him on LinkedIn, or see him on YouTube.”

[2] Individual Publication Date: October 15, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/haereid-rosner-three; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Erik Haereid and Rick Rosner (Part Three) [Online].October 2018; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/haereid-rosner-three.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, October 15). Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Erik Haereid and Rick Rosner (Part Three). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/haereid-rosner-three.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Erik Haereid and Rick Rosner (Part Three). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, October. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/haereid-rosner-three>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Erik Haereid and Rick Rosner (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/haereid-rosner-three.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Erik Haereid and Rick Rosner (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (October 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/haereid-rosner-three.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Erik Haereid and Rick Rosner (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/haereid-rosner-three>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Erik Haereid and Rick Rosner (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/haereid-rosner-three.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Erik Haereid and Rick Rosner (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):October. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/haereid-rosner-three>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Erik Haereid and Rick Rosner (Part Three) [Internet]. (2018, October; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/haereid-rosner-three.

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2018-10-15

An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Five)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: October 15, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,553

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Dr. Christopher DiCarlo is an Author, Educator, and Philosopher of Science and Ethics. He discusses: Religulous; and foundational questions for naturalists and supernaturalists.

Keywords: author, Christopher DiCarlo, educator, philosopher.

An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo: Author, Educator, Philosopher of Science and Ethics (Part Five)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Do you remember that line from Bill Maher in Religulous when he’s interviewing ex-Mormons? Familial, basically it is social suicide, that reminds me of this narrative you are telling me.

Dr. Christopher DiCarlo: When I was in grade 6, we knew our teacher was gay. We knew he was gay. He was the poster boy for homosexuality but we were Catholic. So, we said, “No, he cannot be a fag, right? He married whatever her name is. Her Grade 1 teacher. He had kids. No, he’s not a fag.”

Turns out, he was gay. However, he was Catholic. It was the 1970s. He comes out. He gets excommunicated. To a Catholic, you cannot be buried in consecrated ground. You are forever in limbo. You are never getting into heaven with your family.

So, he stayed in the closet. He did what so many gay men of the time did: they lived a lie. He finally came out. His wife accepted it. His sons accepted it. Now, his community accepted it, but it took decades for people to realize this. His whole life was a lie because of a belief system.

To me, that is harm; therefore, it is wrong. Therefore, guys like me have a right to say, “No, I am going to speak out against it. I am going to try to be more compassionate to others who might be going through that same situation.” Ideally, in the perfect world, we do not want people to suffer needlessly.

We are all going to suffer. We have to suffer, but that seems so needless. Today, Muslim communities are even worse than what the Catholic community was like in the 70s. In Saudi Arabia, places like that, people get thrown off buildings, get stoned, get executed all the time.

Simply, through no fault of their own, for being homosexual, it is medieval. I have a right to speak up against it. It would be interesting for you to know that some of the work I am doing in critical thinking. I am meeting with people from Iran. He has to be smuggled into Iran.

I might be on a hit list [Laughing]. That I do not know about, but I do not think I can visit Iran like I did with Guatemala and what I will do with other countries. So, we are going to do it by Skype and by smuggling the information and allowing teachers to take over at an underground level.

Jacobsen: It is going to be hard because the kids can report back to parents or authorities.

DiCarlo: I know and then the teachers will be in trouble.

Jacobsen: But these are also individual choices to make.

DiCarlo: That is it. That level moves very slowly, creeps. However, we have to try it. You have a mission in life. Philosophers have missions in life. If they are not trying to make the world better in some ways, I mean that is audacious as hell, but if we do nothing than we are doing a disservice to our calling.

Which is the love of wisdom,  is the capacity to educate and to offer people more than what their particular code system is telling them is right and just. So, it is like an “emancipation,” for lack of a better word, to free up their minds to think in a more liberated way.

I understand this is extremely audacious of me to believe. That I am a liberator in that context, but whether I am pie in the sky misguided or not. That has become my calling and that is the type of thing I am finding myself to be most passionate about. That is what I am going to continue to do.

2. Jacobsen: How might hypothetical naturalist and supernaturalist respond to each of the 5 foundational questions of life? 

DiCarlo: We get of them sent to us. Publishers want us to use them in our courses. None of them would talk about the elephants in the room.

They all talk about, “We can think about this, here is a Venn diagram, here is a truth tablet, here is propositional logic, there is formal and informal logic and fallacies and what not.” of them have great stuff in them, but none of them dealt with the nuts and bolts of thinking. Which is: let’s look at the 5 most important questions that people try to answer that sum up the meaning of life.

Then we can look at the two major ways people try to answer them: naturally and supernaturally. I try to be fair in the book and treat both sides as fairly as possible and not tell you what side you should believe and put it out there for both of these sides.

In terms of the question, what can I know? The ancient skeptics, like Socrates, were so adept at identifying. To me, this is one of the most important distinctions that humankind has ever made. It is to be aware of the fact that you do not know absolute truth.

To me, this is probably the greatest understanding of our epistemic state that any human has been able to do at any time in the history of thought. By absolute truth, I mean knowing from a God’s eye view thing. So, the supernaturalists maintain that they are in possession of absolute truth.

So, it is not as though an Orthodox Jew, Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Sikh, or whatever, get up in the morning and say, ” I could be very misguided in my views. I should question why I believe this stuff.”

No, I mean when you are a true believer, it follows that the information in your head is about how the universe is and that God answers very those other 4 questions and that gives you a certain feeling.

To me, the brain evolved in order to get you to do certain things in certain ways: largely to reproduce. However, along the way, your brain in eating and having sex releases certain chemicals that feel really good. Evolution has modified your brain over time to make you feel good by doing certain things.

What does that mean? That means that our brains get us high. Lots of things that we do get us high.

Watching a good movie, voting for the right candidate that we think will take this country to the next stage, watching the Raptors do as they did, or Milos Raonic doing so at Wimbledon, or swinging on a swing, or watching the birth of your child, these things get us high.

They are incredible experiences. Religious belief is the granddaddy of all highs. If you have got those big 5 answers supernaturally, things are going along and can get you through some rough times.

Not only is it going to feed you dopamine and serotonin and other types of neurotransmitters that make you feel wonderful; they are also going to produce endorphins for when you are stressed and will reduce your stress. So, the work that I did in Harvard looked at the neuropsychological factors of religious beliefs along this evolutionary model that I developed.

So, when you say, “What can I know?” To be consistent, a supernaturalist would say, “I know absolute truth. I am in possession of the information, which is absolutely true. That which cannot possibly be misguided or mistaken.”

When you are making a claim like that, man, it is not an easy thing to deal with that level of dogmatism. The number one question I get from students and people who interview me is: what do you do with a pig-headed person who is so dogmatic that they simply will not listen to reason? Do you give up on them?

I say, “Obviously, it depends not on the circumstances. Who is it? Do you want them to give up on it?” My mother was a Catholic until the day she died.

We would have conversations. She knew I was an atheist. She would hold a rose up and said, “What a beautiful thing God has made!” I would say, “Glorious accident mother, absolutely amazing.”

However, nothing more than that. A wonderful, genetic freak accident of nature. As she approached death, I called the dogs off, essentially. Because you have to exercise a level of diplomacy and critical thinking when answering those big 5.

I thought the greatest thing for my mother as she is approaching death is to think she is going to meet St. Peter at the pearly gates. She is going to see Jesus. All of her dogmatic beliefs will be proven right.

She will be up in Heaven looking down on me praying for me to come back to the fold. Even though, we had our disagreements; I would never raise the issue of God. I let her go to her grave believing that what she knew was absolutely true.

However, for others who are dogmatic, who wish to engage in conversation, how I do it is less, less in your face, “What an idiot you are for believing this stuff. Here is all the evidence. Why cannot you see it?”

I tend to be far more Socratic. So, initially, I will not necessarily agree with them, but feign ignorance as Socrates did and say, “This God that you believe in, sounds like a quite an amazing character.”

They respond, “He is, let me tell you more about him.” So know, you have put them at ease. Now, you have made them more comfortable and let them know you are open to listening to their side. So, then I say, “Tell me more. What else can this God do?”

Give them enough time, I will ask questions, which will much force them to think about things like “How do you reconcile omniscience with free will? How can they reconcile, if they are Christian, an all intelligent God with the capacity to see original sin?”

That is a no-brainer. That he didn’t see that. He had to make a part of himself flesh to die to himself to alleviate original sins from what he created, of what he should have known would be sin in the first place.

So, I get people to walk through the inconsistencies and contradictions, so that they see it. Instead of me hammering them like a Bill Maher or Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, type of approach, I say to them, “I want to believe in this God, so convince me.”

It puts them at ease. It makes them talk; the more they talk, the more you throw in some questions that allow them to realize, “Oh, huh… I never thought of that.” Then you leave them for a while and let them mull all that over.

Dan Barker told me, “Chris if I had someone like you who showed me the inconsistencies and contradictions, I would have changed my views in a day.” I said “No, you would not have. You were hardcore Christian. It would have taken you weeks, months, and, maybe, years.”

You and I know: we talk to former theists who are now atheists. They tell us their story and sometimes – although, it is rare – there is that flash of epiphany. That secular epiphany, “How could I have been so stupid?”

To me, those are people who were along that path, already questioning things, to begin with. They were the ones who were already thinking, “What am I believing here?” So, they read The God Delusion or looked up Sam Harris online or read Dennett’s books or whatever.

But it is the ones who are hardcore dogmatic who are firmly entrenched, digging the heels; if you come at them in an adversarial way, they are only going to become more entrenched and dislike you all the more for it.

I am trying to teach people how to have intelligent, adult conversations and disagree and still get along. Because that is your neighbour, that is your kids’ teacher, that is a cop who pulled you over. We want to make sure people are treated fairly. So, when people say, “What can I know?”

The naturalist says, “I know that I do not know what absolute truth is.” So, that, immediately, puts me into a pragmatic level of lessening my epistemic requirements and saying, “What do I know about cause and effect relationships?” It comes under the rubric of the scientific method and the sciences. That is what I will say I know.

But that knowledge is perhaps limited to being pragmatic, useful, and beneficial. It may turn out to be absolutely true, what physicists are telling us about matter or energy and biologists about function and mechanisms, may, ultimately, turn out to be absolutely true.

But all my colleagues and I are not in that businesses. We are not here to worry about it. That is what the worry is about. We are all humans. Does it work? Does it cure cancer or put people on the moon?

Vaccines cause the recognition of certain types of pathogens and kill them before it gets a chance to kill our children. Pragmatic truth is really good. It has helped our species and many other species.

That is the difference between the natural and the supernatural claims to knowledge. Why am I here? The naturalist – I am here – one answer: luck. Luck that is why we are here.

If the world happened in any other ways and functioned differently, that comets, meteors, didn’t crash into the Earth at the right, specific time to wipe out the dinosaurs to give the mammals the shot that caused the line of descent from ground squirrels to simians to primates to the split divergence of orangutans from the rest of the great apes to us, then we are not having this conversation.

We are not here. Why are we all here? Luck: that is my explanation. Luck by way of natural forces. Supernatural? Depends on the particular flavour of the day. “By the divine grace of God. We are here because God wanted us to be here.”

What am I? A natural explanation, “I am a descendant of the African ape. Prior to, that more than likely, a reptilian, prior to that fish, prior to that much pond scum, blue-green algae.”

Jacobsen: [Laughing] I love that phrase.

DiCarlo: Prior to that, every atom inside of us was once inside of stars. Joni Mitchell was right; we are stardust, billion-year-old carbon. That is it! Nothing more special to us than that and why we are here is of lucky episodes.

Supernaturalists, whatever. “I am a physical being but I am also a spiritual being. I am often a dualist. That means there is some corporeal aspect to me that will survive bodily death and will maybe be recycled and maybe not recycled depending on the flavour.” That is the thing within us that does the choosing.

That is not somehow affected by the natural law and that is a tricky one to reconcile. However, none the less, this cosmic goo or this spiritual fog or whatever it is you want to call our essence and continues on after we die somehow in some other realm.

I have no evidence for that so I stay over on the natural side. Supernaturalists, they believe it for their various reasons and like I said, as long as that is not generating verb harm, you go ahead and you believe that to the cows come home.

I am not, but you go ahead. How should I behave? this is the field of ethics; most supernaturalists will have some divine command theories.

God has created us for a particular reason, wants us to behave a particular way and out of that emerges somehow a free choice. Out of your choices, you get the black checks or the red hearts from God who is watching your behaviour.

If you get enough red hearts over black checks, you get rewarded in some particular way. If you do not, it is not going to favour your protoplasmic goo after you have shuffled off the mortal coil. For a naturalist, we are on our own. We are in a big old cold universe. I am an ultimate nihilist. That means I have found no ultimate universal rules for behaviour, but I am a proximal ethicist. That means we have to come up with the rules. It seems like we have indicators that help us.

We try to avoid pain and suffering. We tend towards comfort and approval in certain areas. So, maybe, those connect as guides. Maybe what good and bad is coming from biology, and what is good and bad for an organism than can come from the bottom up rather than top-down, it will give us some capacity.

It will then make rules, which will favour our comfort and disfavour our discomfort. It will extend to another species as well. Because other mammals clearly can experience pain and pleasure; therefore, we owe them rights or must extend rights to them as well.

Nothing in the universe tells me in any way that I am more privileged than a squirrel. If you can show me that, please do. I am more conscious, maybe than a squirrel, but a squirrel is way better at other things, e.g., walking on a wire, than I am.

So, why do I get to value my life more than that of a squirrel? Or we can talk about hierarchies if you want but that would get into a criteria problem. What criteria now? Is that entirely arbitrary and favours ethnocentrism and anthropocentrism?

So, I, basically, want humans to get along as much as we possibly can so we can get as much as what we want, but that cannot be at the expense of other species and other humans. I am not saying this is easy to figure out.

This is what social and political theory is about, trying to make sure people have the lives that they want, but not at the cost of so many others. That means another species as well.

That goes right to the level: I am an omnivore; I enjoy eating meat as much as I enjoy eating plant products. However, I do not eat as much pork anymore because I drive into Toronto and see those huge trucks carrying pigs.

I know how intelligent they are. I see they are going to the slaughter. I would rather not see them die, so I am going to try to cut that out as much as I can. I am a little bothered that there has not been more attention paid to.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Author; Educator; Philosopher; Fellow, Society of Ontario Freethinkers; Board Advisor, Freethought TV; Advisory Fellow, Center for Inquiry Canada.

[2] Individual Publication Date: October 15, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-four; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Five) [Online].October 2018; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-five.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, October 15). An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Five). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-five.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Five). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, October. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-five>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Five).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-five.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Five).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (October 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-five.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Five)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-five>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Five)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-five.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Five).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):October. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-five>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Five) [Internet]. (2018, October; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-five.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-10-15

An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Six)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: October 15, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,129

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Monika Orski is the Ordförande/Chairman, Mensa Sverige/Mensa Sweden. She discusses: the fun of the super smart; researchers of the gifted and talented; theories of creativity and genius; other demographics of Mensa Sweden; and the old “nature” argument.

Keywords: chairman, Mensa Sverige, Mensa Sweden, Monika Orski, Ordförande.

An Interview with Monika Orski: Ordförande/Chairman, Mensa Sverige/Mensa Sweden (Part Six)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Now, if the super smart are anything like ordinary people, where their higher general intelligence simply implies a bigger hammer or a stronger ox, they must have a friendly competition with some of the other chapters of the super smart groups. You mentioned some within the definition of Western Europe. How do some of the Mensa chapters have some competitive fun? How do smart people compete with one another, simply in a more amplified and varied set of ways?

Monika Orski: Probably in lots of ways I am not aware of, but of course I know of some kinds of competitive fun.

I am not a particular fan of board games myself, although I occasionally enjoy one at some Mensa meeting. There is a quite large group within Mensa who are very much into board games of different kinds, mostly with a preference for the strategic games where you need to think fast. No large Mensa gathering feels entirely complete without a games room, and some participants will spend almost all of their time in it, while others might step in for an hour or two in between other activities.

At EMAGs, the European meetings, there is usually also a football (soccer) tournament, where mensans from different national groups form teams – sometimes mixed nations teams, to get enough players.

Some national gatherings, including the AG of Mensa Sweden, often include a poker tournament. Only small money stakes, of course, as it’s purely intended for friendly competition for the fun of it.

There has also been a logic puzzles competition with national teams from the four Nordic Mensas. It’s been a while since anyone organized one of those, though. If I remember correctly, Sweden lost the finals to Denmark the latest time we had it. It might be time for us to try and organize a re-match.

2. Jacobsen: In the European context, who are some researchers with a great deal of experience and research into the gifted and talented community there?

Orski: This is a question where I need to resort to an excuse: I’m an engineer, not a psychologist. I don’t have the deeper knowledge of psychological research needed to provide a good answer.

From my own reading, I would pick the names Ian Deary and Robert Plomin. In the more local, Swedish context, I know that Roland Persson has done a lot of interesting research regarding gifted children, and there is also some interesting work by Berit Carlstedt on intelligence and intelligence testing. But those happen to be some names I know of, I’m sure there are many others.

3. Jacobsen: In the European context, who are individual, establishment or independent, researchers with interesting or unique take on creativity and, indeed, genius? Any personal theory or theories, from reading and observation, as to what comprises the roots necessary for genius to flourish – with, of course, a definition of genius as a bulwark for the theory or theories?

Orski: As above, I have no particular knowledge of the foremost research into creativity or genius. I think my reading is too amateur too really allow me in good conscience to point to anyone.

I know that there is a continuing debate on whether genius is a useful term at all. But if we are still going to use it, I think the definition used on the English language Wikipedia page for the subject “genius” is a good one: “A genius is a person who displays exceptional intellectual ability, creative productivity, universality in genres or originality, typically to a degree that is associated with the achievement of new advances in a domain of knowledge.”

Thus, I think it important to remember that gifted rarely means genius. There are few geniuses, while gifted is a label used for a fast-thinking part of the population – be it the 2% allowed Mensa membership, or 5% as is often set as an estimate of the number of gifted children, or something in between. This is not a large minority, but it is not truly rare, as genius is.

How can we help genius to flourish? My theory, or maybe rather my guess, would be to follow the same principles as to help anyone gifted to flourish, only the genius would probably need more of it and at a much faster pace. Let people learn things, and keep learning. Leave room for creativity. Don’t be afraid to give a young person space to explore things in solitary occupations. Keep teaching them new things. Let them find their multiple talents, even if they chose to pursue one of them more than others. Allow them to create positions for themselves to keep exploring, and to keep learning also when they are no longer young.

4. Jacobsen: Also, I am curious. What are the religious demographics, if known or even simply surmised, of Mensa Sweden? What are the political demographics? How does this, potentially, reflect the international data on intelligence and political orientation & religious beliefs?

Orski: The simple answer is, I don’t know. We do not keep records of religious, ethnical, or political characteristics of our members. I might add that I would find it quite repugnant if a society like ours did.

Religion is not particularly present in Swedish everyday discourse. Many people would rather define themselves as of no particular religion at all. This makes it a bit hard to define. Also, it’s not a particularly common topic in everyday talk.

Regarding politics, some people tend to talk much more about it than others, especially on social media. Those are usually not the level headed, middle of the road types. But from what I know of the politics of the mensans I meet, I have no reason to believe there is any significant difference to the general political demographic. There might be reason to take into account that the educated part of the population is probably overrepresented in Mensa, but other than that – we have all sorts, just like everywhere else.

Which leads me to another demographic, where I have no statistics but a qualified guess based on who I meet in Mensa. While we have people from all walks of life, there is an overrepresentation of those with university education. Seems quite natural, especially if you take into account that in our part of the world, access to education is not limited by the financial means of your family.

5. Jacobsen: Occasionally, in the early 21st century less than the 20th century but still, we find individuals, internationally speaking, who crop up. They, at times, hold great stations of power and influence, and prestige.

They proclaim science as a male thing, not as a female thing; science only built, statistically speaking, for the male brain, in their some time terminology; even, that women simply are intellectually inferior to men and, therefore, should have a pre-ascribed role within society based on, what they see and argue, innate differences in not only abilities but also preferences based on temperaments.

Ironically, temperaments seen as innate in which they feel the need to encourage through all systems and channels reaching mass audiences in society, especially reflected in the reactions to non-traditional roles for women in representations within films and television, for example.

Even so, or while saying these things, often, these individuals will lose their jobs and be lambasted in public. Others, at the same time, will see them as pariahs of the genetic truth of the human species in sex differences – full stop, end of story, exclamation point.

What seems like the proper interpretation of the situation here? How can one respond to the arguments about innate differences and prescribed roles for women in society? Why do these individual make these arguments?

How do – in your lifetime of as one and in conversations with them – women tend to react to these individuals when speaking with one another, which may not be the same manner in which women speak in public or to men for that matter?

When they bring data forward, or historic examples of more men than women as the listed discoverers or inventors, what seems like a proper retort?

Orski: The old “nature” argument. Of course, if this was in fact a matter of nature, there would be no need to try to force that conviction on anyone, and even less to put it into laws, as those authoritarian sexists often will. No one seems to see it necessary to make laws to prevent that humans photosynthesize, or that we fly by way of flapping our arms. Why? Because there are truly innate traits of human nature that make those acts impossible.

My recipe for a proper retort is usually to simple say that is not true, and go on do something productive, nice, or both. There is usually no way you can reason with people like this. They obviously have a need to cling to some sense of being superior, no matter how unrealistic. Unless you are a psychologist they came to in order to get help with the inferiority complex that is likely to be somewhere at the bottom of this attitude, it is not your job to make them understand how the world works.

For those who are simply unaware of the different expectations men and women still live under, even in relatively equal societies, I recommend a little mind game. Next time you think a man is well qualified for a position, ask yourself if you would also think a woman of exactly the same merits and exactly the same level of professional behaviour qualified. Also ask yourself the corresponding question next time you think a woman might not be quite qualified for a position.

Lastly, for all the decent men with true merits of their own who encourage women to make sure they do not get positions based on gender: Ask yourself whether you would be in your current position if you were a woman with exactly the same qualifications. If your honest answer is yes, assuming you have a realistic assessment of your qualifications, then you can congratulate yourself on being hired on merit, and not on the all to common male quota.

References

  1. Mensa International. (2018). Mensa Sweden. Retrieved from https://www.mensa.org/country/sweden.
  2. Mensa Sverige. (2018). Mensa Sverige. Retrieved from https://www.mensa.se/.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Ordförande/Chairman, Mensa Sverige/Mensa Sweden.

[2] Individual Publication Date: October 15, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-six; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Six) [Online].October 2018; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-six.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, October 15). An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Six). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-six.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Six). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, October. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-six>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Six).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-six.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Six).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (October 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-six.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Six)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-six>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Six)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-six.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Six).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):October. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-six>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Six) [Internet]. (2018, October; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-six.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-10-15

An Interview with Tim Moen (Part One)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: October 15, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,391

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Tim Moen is the President of the Libertarian Party of Canada. He discusses: family background, culture, family, geography, language, and religion/irreligion; religion and God; and arguments for God.

Keywords: Libertarianism, Libertarian Party of Canada, Tim Moen.

An Interview with Tim Moen: Leader, Libertarian Party of Canada (Part One)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: In terms of culture, family, geography, language, and religion/irreligion, what is your background?

I grew up on a farm in Northern Alberta about 80 km NE of Grande Prairie with my mom and dad and younger brother. My grandparents were Mennonite Brethren who were branded Kulaks and fled Stalinist Russia and settled in Southern Alberta around Lethbridge. They worked hard to build a life in Canada and I’m grateful for their legacy of hard work, responsibility and sense of connection to something greater than one’s self.

Our family went to a non-denominational Church and I was a very involved and earnest evangelical Christian and truth seeker. I spent a year in Bible College immediately after high school studying theology with an eye towards serving as a pastor. That year left me with the impression that there were no real answers to be found and I realized I’d have a difficult time being a pastor selling any kind of certainty so I moved on to a career in Emergency Services.

I’ve spent over 22 years working in Emergency Services in various roles and still work today as a Firefighter/Paramedic. I love helping people and I consider my primary purpose in life to protect people from destructive forces whether its acute illness, fire, trauma, authoritarian force, or unclear thinking.

2. Jacobsen: At the time, what images of religion and God were in mind for you?

My image of God at the time was one of an omnipotent, omniscient, mostly compassionate celestial dictator. A God that knew my every thought and desire and had a plan for me. Religion to me was the institution where one became educated in order to obtain salvation and more closely align one’s beliefs with a very real spiritual realm.

3. What argument and evidence seemed the strongest in favour of the God of evangelical Christianity to you? This can include traditional arguments such as the Cosmological Argument (from contingency), Kalam Cosmological Argument
(based on the beginning of the universe), Moral Argument (based upon
moral values and duties), Teleological Argument (from fine-tuning), and the Ontological Argument (from the possibility of God’s existence to His actuality).

The most compelling argument I’ve heard for a God is probably the Unmoved Mover argument. The way Tom Woods explained it here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJ2oY7nvM-M is very compelling to me. I’d always thought of the Unmoved Mover as a way of saying that there must be a beginning to the universe ergo God most have started it, which seems fairly easy to dismiss, but Woods explains that it that this view of the Unmoved Mover is a straw man and further explains that bringing potentiality into actuality is an ongoing process and demands a God. In other words; for reality to continue to exist requires a supreme being. If one then takes a layman’s interpretation of the quantum realm and how strange and difficult to explain the substrate of reality becomes it becomes compelling to imagine a supreme being there. It satisfies a deep psychological longing to explain reality in a way that is easier to understand and also a longing to never cease existing. In fairness I haven’t thought very deeply on these issues for years so I haven’t delved into the arguments for or against the Unmoved Mover in any depth.

Once you have a compelling argument for the existence of a supreme being you still have all your work ahead of you to argue for the “God of evangelical Christianity”. There are as many interpretations and conceptions of God as there are believers so its difficult to know how one would go about proving the existence of a particular conception. For example, what is the null hypothesis for a Young Earth Creationists argument that the Earth is only 10,000 years old? What about Evangelicals that believe in an old Earth and evolution? Are we expected to believe that God ignored humanity for its first 100,000 years, essentially sentencing them to eternal torment, and then suddenly showed up with a bunch of rules and then sent his son to die and offered everyone in the past 2000 years another path to salvation that didn’t exist before? These types of questions are ones that vexed me in the past and essentially turned me into an anti-theist for a period of time, but I now think this is probably not helpful to try and demand a literal description of material reality from scripture in the same way it is not helpful to propagate the idea that the scripture is a literal description of material reality.

I have considerably softened my view of Christianity over the years. My mind started to change towards Christianity after reading the writing of Michael Dowd who is a Christian pastor and author of the book “Thank God for Evolution” has a completely different conception of evangelical Christianity that doesn’t require belief in the sort of supernatural person in the sky I believed in as a child. It was further softened as I went through grad-school and read research on optimal mind states and started practicing some forms of meditation, based on peer reviewed research, that looked very similar to how I was taught to pray. Expressing gratitude is peer reviewed and is also happens to be how many religious practices teach to begin prayer. So when I’ve attended religious ceremonies and church over the last few years I’ve come to view them through a different lens. There are likely good evolutionary reasons these institutions emerge and there are very good things going on here and they fill a deep human need.

In summary, I think there are some compelling reasons to believe in a supreme being although I remain unconvinced. I think that Evangelical Christianity can comport with these compelling reasons to believe in a supreme being if it isn’t taken as a literal description of material reality.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Leader, Libertarian Party of Canada.

[2] Individual Publication Date: October 15, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/moen-one; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Tim Moen (Part One) [Online].October 2018; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/moen-one.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, October 15). An Interview with Tim Moen (Part One). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/moen-one.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Tim Moen (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, October. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/moen-one>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Tim Moen (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/moen-one.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Tim Moen (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (October 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/moen-one.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Tim Moen (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/moen-one>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Tim Moen (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/moen-one.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Tim Moen (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):October. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/moen-one>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Tim Moen (Part One) [Internet]. (2018, October; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/moen-one.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-10-12

Ask Sarah 1 — The New Media

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee: Sarah Mills

Numbering: Issue 1: Inaugural Issue

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: Question Time

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: October 12, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 822

Keywords: Areo Magazine, Conatus News, media, Sarah Mills.

Sarah Mills is a Managing Editor and Writer at Conatus News, as well as a writer at Areo Magazine, Huffington Post, Litro Magazine, and Culture Project. We have been colleagues for well over a year now. I reached out about garnering some intel, some insider information, on writing and editing within the new media, especially as a journalist. Here we talk about the new media and navigation of the modern terrain.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: The new media presents a unique set of challenges for people involved in journalism and electronic dissemination of news and opinion, whether editing or writing. How can newer editors and writers navigate this terrain?

Sarah Mills: One of the biggest challenges is the sheer number of outlets vying for public attention–and receiving it. In the digital era, we’ve seen countless outlets spring up to challenge traditional media, with varying results. Many consumers treat them as legitimate sources of information when they fail to uphold the code of ethics that standard news outlets are held to. They use biased or charged language and lie by omission, and their stories are picked up and shared across social media by influencers. With the rise of citizen journalism in the digital era, anyone can go to an event, upload a video, and see it go viral. This is not altogether a bad thing, depending on who is holding the camera and what his or her intentions are. But it has resulted in mass scepticism of traditional media sources. While scepticism is a good thing, users on social media often share stories based on whom they are following, often without even reading the article itself or checking the source. Writers and editors must be diligent to always trace back sources, trace back the money, and counter the spread of misinformation when the epithet of ‘fake news’ is attributed merely to sources at odds with the perspective of the accuser.

Jacobsen: The basic premise of the media trends in the 2010s and projected into the 2020s is the slow death by a thousand cuts of print-based media while there is a transition into electronic media. How can journalists adapt to this trend and landscape?

Mills: The newspaper industry has taken quite a blow, and the losses suffered have happened so quickly and on such a great scale that one wonders whether growth in the digital sector can offset them at this time. It has been a challenge to monetize digital journalism. Some outlets have responded by putting up paywalls and employing ads. Others have yielded to the temptation of the clickbait, which invites misreading and encourages sharing by social media users, again, often without ever having read the article in its entirety. It certainly isn’t all doom and gloom though. Change is always challenging. It is also true that there is potential for a more even playing field. Anyone with something captivating to contribute can hop online and do so. You inevitably get the sleazy opportunists, the painfully inadequate writing that is a result of the ‘death of expertise,’ but also the brilliant.

Jacobsen: How are editing and writing probably easier in some ways and more difficult in others with electronic assistance and internet-based communication with colleagues?

Mills: I began working in editing and writing in the online environment. So I never really had the chance to experience it otherwise. I correspond with a team that is spread out all across the world. At the click of a button and from the comfort of my own home, I can contact people for interviews, I can conduct background checks on them, I can network with colleagues, I can reach people in war zones and they can videochat live with me from the scene. It’s grand and humbling to be living in this time, despite the challenges. You only need a reliable Wi-Fi connection and you can have the world at your fingertips.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Sarah.

Image Credit: Sarah Mills.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and Question Time by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com and https://medium.com/question-time

Copyright 

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time 2012-2020. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2018-10-08

An Interview with Dr. Katherine Bullock

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: October 8, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,081

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Dr. Katherine Bullock is the Chair of the Islamic Society of North America-Canada and Lecturer at the University of Toronto. She discusses: family background regarding culture, geography, language, and religion; personal life and upbringing in the early years; first woman Chair of the Islamic Society of North America – Canada; the next generation of Muslim women leaders in Canada; Rethinking Muslim Women and the Veil: Challenging Historical and Modern Stereotypes (2007); prejudice and bigotry; freedom of religion; the perceptions of the capabilities and roles of women; advancement and empowerment of women within the Canadian Islamic communities; prevention of those; some women Muslim scholars representative of the future and current leadership of Muslim women in Canada; and recommended books or organizations.

Keywords: Chair, Islam, Islamic Society of North America-Canada, Katherine Bullock, Lecturer, University of Toronto.

An Interview with Dr. Katherine Bullock: Chair, Islamic Society of North America-Canada; Lecturer, the University of Toronto[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What is family background regarding culture, geography, language, and religion?

Dr. Katherine Bullock: I was born in Australia to an Anglo heritage. I was raised in the Anglican Church and attended the Presbyterian Ladies College for high school. In Australia, the PLC is part of the United Church. I think it’s different in the US/Canada.

2. Jacobsen: How did this build into personal life and upbringing in the early years for you? When did Islam become the proper way of life for you?

Bullock: The Church, and especially the all-girls high school, instilled some very important values in me, which I recognize today as also being Islamic – respect for others, commitment to excellence in work, the importance of family and community, being resilient and persistent through difficulties and hardship, and living an ordered and disciplined life. I converted to Islam in the 2nd year of my Ph.D. studies at the University of Toronto.

3. Jacobsen: You are the first woman Chair of the Islamic Society of North America – Canada and were its Executive Director of Education, Media, and Community Outreach. What tasks and responsibilities come with these stations? 

Bullock: I was the Executive Director of Education, Media and Community Outreach for a couple of years in 2004. That position no longer exists. As the Chair, the main task and responsibility are to see to the proper running of the board and to be the main point of contact with the Executive Director.

The board deals with ensuring legal compliance, setting the organization’s policies, strategic visioning and planning, and financial policies and budgeting.

4. Jacobsen: How might this inspire the next generation of Muslim women leaders in Canada? 

Bullock: Hopefully just seeing a woman in this position will inspire another woman to imagine that possibility for herself. Although we’ve been a bit busy with all the duties I previously mentioned, I hope to establish a women’s group that can contribute to leadership development before my term expires.

5. Jacobsen: You authored a number of books with some emphasis on Muslim women in particular. In Rethinking Muslim Women and the Veil: Challenging Historical and Modern Stereotypes (2007), what were the main questions, the central thesis, and the answer to the questions within the framework of the thesis of the text?

Bullock: Rethinking Muslim Women and the Veil was born directly of my experience of converting to Islam and starting to wear hijab. I received so many unexpected negative comments from people around me, from strangers on the subway, to colleagues in my department where I was pursuing graduate studies.

I couldn’t understand why my friends and I had such a positive view on wearing the hijab and yet it is viewed so negatively by the wider society. I decided to investigate the origins of the Western notion of hijab as oppression and to compare that with Muslim women’s own perspectives and opinions.

6. Jacobsen: Muslims and other Canadian citizens undergo undue prejudice and bigotry. At times, this can include scapegoating and becoming targets of cynical political rhetoric or disproportionately negative media coverage, as far as I can observe.

Ordinary religious and non-religious people of conscience, typically, are appalled by this behaviour by politicians and others to demonize minority sectors of the Canadian population. First question, what is the source of this xenophobia and ethnic-nationalist hatred of the other and, in particular, Muslim women (and men) in Canada?

Bullock: First of all, I want to thank you and others like you who can see through the smear campaigns and for reaching out to gain more understanding. Muslims really need allies like that. I believe that the source of this xenophobia is actually quite complex.

It involves a sense of fear of loss of status and place; some white/Anglo/Franco nationalists feel that immigration is pushing them out of ‘their” society, and will change its values for the worse.

Second, I believe anti-Muslim prejudice is deeply rooted in Western cultural discourses.  We can trace negative portrayals as far back as the eighth century when Christendom feared Islam as a Christian heresy.

Some thought Muhammad had wanted to be Pope and failed, then breaking off to found a rival and schismatic group. While we now live in a secular world, many of the early themes mentioned in these folktales are still around, such as barbaric men and oppressed women.

They passed on from Christian writers to missionaries, to colonizers, to secular publics.

7. Jacobsen: Second question, what can reduce and eventually – ideally – eliminate the rhetoric of division and hate? I realize some non-religious people want to eliminate religion altogether or stop the freedom of religion of others by implication.

I disagree with those non-religious people. I consider the freedom to religion and freedom from religion as equal rights for the religious and non-religious to mutually enjoy.

In particular, I note the emphasis among this sub-section of the non-religious population on hypervigilance on Islam as a set of beliefs and suggested practices, and Muslim communities and Muslims as individual citizens in their respective countries. 

Bullock: This obviously is a very big and important question.  It seems, most, unfortunately, that some forms of hatred will always exist as part of the human condition.

I have recently learnt how anti-Semitism in Canada has lasted for over 100 years.  I think the best we can do is try and make as many friends as possible amongst the different religious and non-religious groups, and take a “live and let live” attitude, as you suggest.

We should learn about each other through dialogue and shared activities.  We ought to be able to understand our differences with respect, remind ourselves constantly what we have in common, and work in solidarity on issues we share concern over, like the environment, good employment, affordable housing, and good education for our children.

8. Jacobsen: Now, within the Islamic communities in North America, what tend to be the problems in terms of the perceptions of the capabilities and roles of women? This links to larger issues within societies in the refusal to implement the rights of women, and the advancement and empowerment of women, in global culture.

Bullock: There is so much diversity in Muslim communities this question is hard to answer.  There are those that see total equality between men and women as being normal, those who favour a patriarchal attitude, and many shades in between.

There are those who think Muslim women should not lead, nor work outside the home and those who think the opposite.  Social workers, lawyers, women’s groups and community activists, both male and female, have raised the plight of women in situations of domestic violence, issues of mental health and parenting.

There are Muslim women teaching things such as self-defence, literacy, and know-your-rights to try and advance and empower Muslim women.

9. Jacobsen: What is being done to advance and empower women within the Canadian Islamic communities? 

Bullock: In addition to what I just said, there are many activities, projects, and education plans to advance and empower women, both spiritually and secularly.

To name a few, there are groups that teach Arabic, Qur’an and Islamic studies; storytelling and art to boost self-esteem; sports and good nutrition; and leadership development and volunteer recruitment to increase civic engagement. 

10. Jacobsen: What is being done to prevent the advancement and empowerment of women within the Canadian Islamic communities?

Bullock: What prevents the advancement and empowerment of women in Canadian Islamic communities are cultural practices, customs, habits and religious interpretations that say a woman should only be a wife and mother, and not have any other role outside the home.

I do not mean to downplay these roles. I have children and I understand completely the special honour and role of these traditionally female roles. I also know the exhaustion that can come with multi-tasking “inside” and “outside” roles.

But it is quite clear that Scripture intended for women more than the “home-based” role only. Women have many skills and talents that can and should benefit society.

11. Jacobsen: Who are some women Muslim scholars representative of the future and current leadership of Muslim women in Canada?

Bullock: Dr. Ingrid Mattson is a much-admired Canadian Muslim scholar. In Critical Muslim and anti-racism studies, Dr. Jasmin Zine stands out, and in Muslim chaplaincy development, Dr. Nevin Reda is providing leadership.

As for the next generation, I know several very smart Ph.D. students who will take their place as leaders in the next decade.

12. Jacobsen: Any recommended books or organizations?

Bullock: One of my favourite books that I think most people would enjoy is the autobiography of Zarqa Nawaz, called Laughing all the Way to the Mosque. Zarqa Nawaz helped produce the first Muslim sitcom on Canadian television called Little Mosque on the Prairie.

She used comedy and television to try and give a better image of Muslims to the wider society. Her book is inspiring as it talks about her life journey and how she made it to that high point.

Anyone who wants an inspiring book about Muslim women scholars should read Al-Muhaddithat: The Women Scholars in Islam, by Muhammad Akram Nadwi.

It is a bit academic in places, but it is inspiring for how it reminds us of Muslim women’s scholarship in our history so that we can reclaim that role with confidence, and know that we are not innovating something, but restoring something that has been lost.

13. Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Dr. Bullock.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Chair, Islamic Society of North America-Canada; Lecturer, the University of  Toronto.

[2] Individual Publication Date: October 8, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bullock; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Dr. Katherine Bullock [Online].October 2018; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bullock.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, October 8). An Interview with Dr. Katherine Bullock. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bullock.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Dr. Katherine Bullock. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, October. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bullock>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Dr. Katherine Bullock.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bullock.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Dr. Katherine Bullock.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (October 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bullock.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Dr. Katherine Bullock‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bullock>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Dr. Katherine Bullock‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bullock.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Dr. Katherine Bullock.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):October. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bullock>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Dr. Katherine Bullock [Internet]. (2018, October; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bullock.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-10-08

An Interview with Hasan Zuberi, M.B.A. (Part Two)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: September 22, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,562

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Hasan Zuberi, M.B.A. is the Chairman for Mensa Pakistan. He discusses: recommendation of the MENA region moving forward in the identification, education, and utilization of the young gifted and talented population; advanced industrial economies for the gifted and talented; gifted and talented programs in the MENA region that would have the greatest long-term impact on the intellectual flourishing of the region; some informal education and practical life skills the gifted and talent should acquire if they wish to pursue a life in entrepreneurship and business; some prominent cases when a known highly gifted person went wrong, e.g. antisocial, violent, and so on; collaboration work with the other Mensa chapters in Indonesia and the UAE; the British, Canadian, and US chapters; hosting visiting Mensans from Germany, Finland, India, Indonesia, Norway, and the Philippines; very rare cases of a 1 in 30,000 kid; the removal of important discoveries, sciences, and philosophies by colonial powers; the most important ethical theories and narratives; revive the influence and culture of Mensa in the MENA region once more; terrorist or extremist activity lure some gifted youth into an unhealthy life trajectory, individually and societally; favourite writers, philosophers, and artists; the wisest person ever met; the smartest people ever met; people donating time, skills, professional networks, or join Mensa Pakistan; more men join Mensa compared to women; the positives and negatives of the perfectionistic tendencies of the gifted and talented; the gifted and talented often left languishing or simply wasted as not only individuals with needs but also potential massive contributors to the flourishing of the nation; bureaucratic downsides to a national and international Mensa leadership; the boundaries and possibilities of national Mensa groups; and alternative IQ tests for societies with very high IQ cut-offs.

Keywords: Hasan Zuberi, Islam, Mensa Pakistan, Muslim, Pakistan.

An Interview with Hasan Zuberi, M.B.A.: Chairman, Mensa Pakistan (Part Two)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: There seems to be a widespread loss of the gifted and talent for the benefit of society and the fulfillment and meaning, in their own lives. How would you recommend the MENA region move forward in the identification, education, and utilization of the young gifted and talented population?

Hasan Zuberi: IMHO, the Academia, Government, and society, in general, has to realize the potential of individual giftedness and work on the various available gifted programs right from the school age. It will help them identify the true potential and direction for kids and on how to carve their intellect into a positive skills-set.

2. Jacobsen: What programs exist in advanced industrial economies for the gifted and talented that could easily be implemented in the MENA region? 

Zuberi: There is a number of programs, Gifted Education is widely used in a number of Western countries as a specialized area. STEM, robotics, and coding are also on the go.

Then we have the Japanese gifted programs introduces in 2005, and above all the Quran based education, that is a mix of subjects from languages, to numerology, to basic astrology and medicine (tib) that has been practised since the Islamic golden age, but removed by colonial powers can also be revived.

3. Jacobsen: What gifted and talented programs would take the longest to establish in the MENA region but would have the greatest long-term impact on the intellectual flourishing of the region?

Zuberi: I think the last one I mentioned above, the Islamic golden era methodology, that mixes the education, religion, with the daily affairs and prepares a child for everyday task. it teaches a student right from personal hygiene to grooming, and from multiple languages to sociology, astrology, numerology, and basic medicine (tib) all derived from the holy scriptures of the Quran.

Interestingly Quran is 40% based on the Old Testament (Book of David, Torah & Zabur) and the new testament (Bible/Injeel), and the remaining 60% is of the present, and future and covers the base of the other subjects. So for a region predominantly Muslim and with Arabic as a primary language, it is something that can improve the society in general.

4. Jacobsen: What are some informal education and practical life skills the gifted and talent should acquire if they wish to pursue a life in entrepreneurship and business?

Zuberi: Languages skills, interpersonal skills, digital knowledge, and above all the personality traits, like honesty, dedication, and hard work. These should be part of the skills taught to every inspiring individual.

5. Jacobsen: What are some prominent cases when a known highly gifted person went wrong, e.g. antisocial, violent, and so on?

Zuberi: In Pakistan, we had a very talented boy. He qualified and joined Mensa Pakistan. He was from a very deprived background and was resident of a slum area, in fact, it is Asia’s biggest slum called Orangi Town in Karachi, and was very bitter towards life.

After he joined Mensa, we the management committee tried our best to make him feel welcome and gave him responsibilities, which he did with pride and brilliantly. He got admission in the most prestigious University.

We helped him secure a scholarship to cover his education cost and, I personally, visited him to show our support at his university and met his teachers and fellow students, in one of my visit to Islamabad as Chairman Pakistan Mensa.

He was on honour roll and won a gold medal in the initial terms, but halfway there, he left the University, after putting up accusations on his faculty dean.

He returned to Karachi, and we hired him, as first paid post holder, but it turned out to be a disaster as soon after he took out his frustration directly on me and wrote to our Vice Chairman and other ManCom members to remove me from office, wrote to Mensa International accusing me of what not.

I had to answer Mensa International on all his false accusations, provided them with valid proofs on each point. After a long, due investigation process, the management committee of Mensa Pakistan found his accusations false and revoked his membership.

He hasn’t stopped there and till now, and often try to influence me through other international Mensa members, the last was Chair of Mensa Cyprus.

6. Jacobsen: How does collaboration work with the other Mensa chapters in Indonesia and the UAE? What have been some of the collaborative projects worked on together?

Zuberi: Well, Mensa Indonesia was long dead, when I visited Jakarta back in 2008, met some of the members and the Chairman, offered my help in reviving it. I wrote to Mensa International there and then and asked for assistance in terms of test booklets.

Mensa Germany came forward and provided support and send us the booklets there which were used for first revival test, on the same trip. Now Mensa Indonesia (MInd) is one of the very active chapters in the Asian region. I feel so proud of my small contribution to its revival.

Likewise, during my work year in UAE, I started contacting Mensa Pakistan and other members residing in the UAE. our first meeting, I still remember, had 12 people from 10 different countries.

After that Mensa UAE was active for a good number of years before slowing down again. Many of the members, like me, left the Emirates and others got busy with their lives.

7. Jacobsen: How have the British, Canadian, and US chapters been helpful in the development of Mensa Pakistan?

Zuberi: Well, the established chapters, British, Canada, and the US have always helped in terms of guidance, knowledge transfer, and above all accommodating visiting Pakistani Mensa members.

Mensa Germany has been always at the forefront in supporting, as in the case of Indonesia mentioned above, as well as in the time of our need, like when our office was flooded and everything destroyed, we got books from Germany.

Then there was a massive earthquake in Pakistan back in 2005 and many International chapters supported us in providing assistance.

Mensa Australia members send us their pocket money as monetary assistance at the time of floods in Pakistan. Likewise, Mensa China and Malaysia were accommodating to our visiting Mensa members and helped in every way possible.

8. Jacobsen: With hosting visiting Mensans from Germany, Finland, India, Indonesia, Norway, and the Philippines, what was involved in that?

Zuberi: Due to a decade of terrorism and violence in and around Pakistan, there were few incidents of foreigners visiting Pakistan; and among them, the Mensans were very small in numbers.

But we had members from many countries visiting Pakistan, primarily for business, and we, as the host Mensa chapter, tried our best to facilitate them wherever applicable. The Philippine mensan was the master chef, who joined a leading 5-star hotel in Karachi. whereas Mensan from Finland was part of a big packaging company.

Our Indian neighbour was there to witness a friendly Cricket match between our countries. We hosted special meetups for them for the exchange of ideas and knowledge and it worked very well every time.

9. Jacobsen: What should be done with the very rare cases of a 1 in 30,000 kid, or even more rare. How should we educate them, the unusually bright?

Zuberi: It is called Gifted or Special. so should be treated like one. The problem is the identification of such gifted talent as in most countries the talents are not identified putting them in more isolation and depressing state. Once identified, certainly should be put up with experts and should be educated in their field of interest.

10. Jacobsen: Regarding the removal of important discoveries, sciences, and philosophies by colonial powers, can you explain in more depth? Those discoveries, sciences, and philosophies with the need for revival and renewal of professional-academic activity.

Zuberi: The colonial powers had to subdue the occupied land and demoralize the occupied people, and the tactics they used was to make them realize that their knowledge, education, discoveries were all worthless.

Hence creating a feeling that whatever the occupiers are doing is good, just, and accepted. From cultural to dressing and from language to inventions, everything was ridiculed and put up as backward.

11. Jacobsen: Within the Islamic context, what remain the most important ethical theories and narratives? How do these apply to the current context?

Zuberi: In Islamic context, the most important ethical theory, as prescribed in the holy scriptures is of Saving and Serving the humanity. even it is written there that Prophet Muhammad was sent for all humanity and not alone for any one religion, tribe, nation, or creed. The killing of one person is termed as the killing of humanity.

But it seems that the message is lost in present-day circumstances and with terrorists glorifying their acts as acts of religion and justifying it from selected verses.

Another interesting fact is that 40% of the Quran is comprised of the Old & New Testaments: Zabur (The book of Prophet Dawood or David) Torah/Taw rat – of Musa/Moses) and Injeel/Bible (of Prophet Isa/Jesus). Whereas 60% remaining covers the time of Prophet Muhammad, and future till the judgement day.

The 60% also covers Shariah (which literally means the Daily routine/life) that covers hygiene (brushing teeth, combing hair, cleanliness) to mannerism (treatment with family, neighbours, merchants, business etc), and from dressing up to dressing down.

12. Jacobsen: What could revive the influence and culture of Mensa in the MENA region once more?

Zuberi: IMHO, localization can help. Be it in language, culture, and national interests. For instance, in GCC countries, in particular, they have some strange rules to secure the interests of the ruling class, and gathering of intellectual brains in one place is termed as something against it.

So if it can be done under some other contexts, like (related to some trade of area of interest) it can work in a much effective and positive way.

13. Jacobsen: How does terrorist or extremist activity lure some gifted youth into an unhealthy life trajectory, individually and societally? What are some protections older generations can create for them?

Zuberi: If I can talk with a brief history and from the perspective of Pakistan, the terrorism was started as a sacred duty and disguised as Jihad (literal meaning: Struggle), against the oppressing Soviet occupying of Afghanistan.

And was sponsored by USA / CIA and other West European countries to stop Soviet expansion to the hot waters / Oil of the Middle East. It helped the mushroom growth of the unregistered holy school, which only used their own version of the Holy text to justify “fighting Atheist Soviets for protection of Monotheism”

The reward for these young kids, willing to fight and sacrifice their lives was: money (approx 200 USD in the early 80s), power (weapons/authority), and religious backing (Islamic context of helping the occupied poor Afghans). Then they were left unattended and uncontrolled with all the weapons, after the fall of Kabul, the departure of Soviets, and the collapse of USSR.

Fast forward, 2001, after 9/11 and the attack on US forces on Afghanistan to counter Al-Qaeda, the narrative changed. Now, the enemy has a new face but the game is still the same, and with many players. From Russia, China, India, and Gulf nations, to neighbouring Iran, Pakistan and Central Asian republics, all are part of it.

So, education is the key. It has started in Pakistan, but still controlled by powers with their interests. The need is to teach humanity from the perspective of the respective religions and sects.

14. Jacobsen: Who are your favourite writers, philosophers, and artists?

Zuberi: Starting from Dr. Muhammad Iqbal (national poet of Pakistan), and the great Persian philosophers Jalal Uddin Rumi, Sheikh Saadi Shirazi, and Khawaja Shams Tabraiz. and in the present day Noam Chomsky.

15. Jacobsen: If you reflect on personal interactions, who seems like the wisest person ever met by you?

Zuberi: Have met many interesting people in my 22 years of journey with Mensa and my professional life. One of the best people was Late Mr. Ardeshir Cowasjee, a leading newspaper columnist and social activist of Pakistan.

Meeting him as Chairman Mensa was a great honour for me. I remember replying to his email was such a huge task, so articulate and well written it was, that it took me a good hour to reply to his email.

16. Jacobsen: Also, in terms of IQ, which is non-trivial as a life factor, who are the smartest people ever met by you?

Zuberi: I have met many, many amazing people. From all walks of life, not enough space for names here.

17. Jacobsen: How can people donate time, skills, professional networks, or join Mensa Pakistan?

Zuberi: People can join Mensa Pakistan after appearing and attaining IQ score in the top 2 percentile in a Mensa supervised test session, or by presenting an IQ equivalence score of 98% or above by a certified, recognized and registered Psychologist.

As it is a volunteer society, members willing to take up responsibilities donate time accordingly.

18. Jacobsen: Why do so many more men join Mensa compared to women? How does this phenomenon impact relationships, dating, marriage, and potential family life for the mensans?

Zuberi: Well, in my opinion, it depends on the choices and interests. Women have their own set of interest and do not really feel to showcase their intellect in front of a group.

Women are more compassionate and dedicated compared to us, the men, and prefer to use their intellect when it is required. In Pakistan, we have a mixed crowd, and almost equal number of qualifiers so the opportunities are also the same for all genders.

19. Jacobsen: What are the positives and negatives of the perfectionistic tendencies of the gifted and talented? 

Zuberi: Positive tendencies are certainly that they keep control over their performances at their pace and as per their satisfaction. Whereas the negativity is that they want to keep everything under control, it affects their performance as team players and/or leader.

20. Jacobsen: How are the gifted and talented often left languishing or simply wasted as not only individuals with needs but also potential massive contributors to the flourishing of the nation?

Zuberi: I think; the biggest problem is of identifying the gifted talent; as if not identified, they have to follow the norms which result in getting bored from the routine lives and effects their own growth, as well as slow the pace of the tasks they are assigned to. But results can be 100% improved if utilized according to their intellect level and interests.

21. Jacobsen: Are there bureaucratic downsides to a national and international Mensa leadership? What are the upsides, comparatively?

Zuberi: Like many organizations, there certainly are. but Mensa is a high IQ society, we tend to find alt-routes, thanks to our amazing Mensans in mancom.

22. Jacobsen: What are the boundaries and possibilities of national Mensa groups? What can and cannot be done? That is, what are the limits for the national groups or representative organizations?

Zuberi: Well, like any organization, we too have cultural, national and territorial boundaries, and apply the law accordingly. Otherwise, all local chapters have their respective constitutions, in line with the core recommendations and duly approved by Mensa International.

For sure, we cannot interfere with any matter that is beyond our limitations and for that, we refer to Mensa International, which has an amazing system and protocols in line.

23. Jacobsen: There are alternative IQ tests for societies with very high IQ cut-offs. Some developed by qualified psychometricians, or at least those with experimental psychology and statistics backgrounds. Others are from intelligent people without these formal qualifications. What is the general perspective of the high-IQ community of these tests? What is the range of quality of them? What is the average of the quality of them? Has Mensa ever accepted them for membership? Have they ever been considered for qualification of membership?

Zuberi: Well, the societies are there, but since their acceptance rate is very limited, so is their membership base. So generally, it is very odd to see someone with qualification from these ultra high IQ societies. So far have not met anyone, in this part of the world, even from our Mensa crowd, interested or inclined towards these societies.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Chairman, Mensa Pakistan.

[2] Individual Publication Date: October 8, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/zuberi-two; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Hasan Zuberi, M.B.A. (Part Two) [Online].October 2018; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/zuberi-two.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, October 8). An Interview with Hasan Zuberi, M.B.A. (Part Two). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/zuberi-two.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Hasan Zuberi, M.B.A. (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, October. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/zuberi-two>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Hasan Zuberi, M.B.A. (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/zuberi-two.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Hasan Zuberi, M.B.A. (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (October 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/zuberi-two.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Hasan Zuberi, M.B.A. (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/zuberi-two>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Hasan Zuberi, M.B.A. (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/zuberi-two.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Hasan Zuberi, M.B.A. (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):October. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/zuberi-two>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Hasan Zuberi, M.B.A. (Part Two) [Internet]. (2018, October; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/zuberi-two.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-10-08

An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Four)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: October 8, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,866

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Dr. Christopher DiCarlo is an Author, Educator, and Philosopher of Science and Ethics. He discusses: helping others in hardship; his difficult story; religious beliefs and evolution.

Keywords: author, Christopher DiCarlo, educator, philosopher.

An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo: Author, Educator, Philosopher of Science and Ethics (Part Four)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Also, not only what it would take but, what is the recourse to do it? What organizations, associations, and support exists? For instance, we see this with people leaving Islam in many cases.

The Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain, I know Maryam Namazie does work through there. I can imagine. It is a difficult job not only in terms of likely ridiculous and threatening emails and letters but the amount of time and resources out of one’s life to do this.

I can imagine if you are dealing with a shaman if you are dealing with a major figure in a society or group, it would be a difficult thing. In fact, Steven Weinberg, senior physicist, noble prize winner, as you know, he was talking about a man.

He worked with Abdus Salam, who was a noble prize co-winner in physics. Abdus Salam was saying when he was trying to bring science to the Islamic world, MENA region; he had a hell of a time because they were open to technology but not to science because the clerics and imams found that science was a corrosive force for religion.

Steven Weinberg stated in the Atheism Tapes, “Damn it, I think they were right.” It is a consistent theme. You see this in Saudi Arabia. Atheism was made illegal or a terrorist offence, recently. It was claimed as terrorism against the state.

Something to that effect. Although there was a good move where women got the right to vote. However, what, 16 or 14 women showed up? Because you need a male companion to drive to the voting booth.

Dr. Christopher DiCarlo: Being an avid atheist has significantly hurt my career, I do not know if you are familiar with that?

2. Jacobsen: I am not familiar enough with it. What is the story there?

DiCarlo: I am not a tenured professor right, so I am a regular schmo. When I was teaching at a university in 2005, towards the end of a critical thinking course, I wrote on the board. I said, “Okay, so, we have all learned these skills. We have all learned various types of information.”

“If we take evolutionary theory seriously, and we should, what does that say about human origins?” Some students put up their hands. We talked about it. I said, “Okay, let’s look at the entailments. What logically would follow if evolutionary theory is right? “

We look at the evidence for it, about our own origins.” Then I wrote the words. It would have to follow; we are all African. So, a student challenged this. She joined up with others. She was Aboriginal. I said, “I know your people might think you have always been here.” She said well, “Who is right, us or science?”

I said, “Not your people.” I was teaching in an area, which is 6 nations. However, then I said, “Look, can you bring in some leaders? I will bring in some scientists and we will show the class how to conduct a dialogue between cultures when there is a clash of science and mythologies?

So, we can have intelligent conversations. Maybe, we can continue to disagree and get along. The class erupted with applause. I thought this is great. This is what university should be about here. No, she hooked up with two fundamentalist Christians, went to the dean. I lost a tenure-track position.

Jacobsen: I do recall an article stating that science was “Eurocentric.” I believe this was one of the quotes.

DiCarlo: That is right.

Jacobsen: That is like saying there is Christian science or Muslim science. It is science. It does not matter who is doing it. The Aboriginal chiefs could be doing it. It works. It is the nature of it.

DiCarlo: I got headhunted to another brand new university in Southern Ontario. The deans were on board with me. The chairs were on board with me. The staff was on board with me. Everything was going well. However, I was such an outed atheist. I am on the radio. I am on television. I could not get tenure.

I was wondering why the provost was not rubber stamping the approval to make it happen and certain things would occur; and they would go, “We did not like that particular aspect. So, we are not going to give you tenure. Maybe, next year at this time.”

After 2 three-year contracts in which I was supposed to be tenured, I was out the door. So, I sued in the Human Rights Tribunal of Ontario for discrimination of creed. This was the first recorded lawsuit where somebody is suing for discrimination of creed where creed is atheism.

Jacobsen: In Canada?

DiCarlo: In Canada. Maybe the world but certainly in Canada. You are not going to know about this. Because I have a bit of a gag order on this. So, my human rights lawyer and I took them to the task; they took us to task and tried to counter sue. For 2 years my wife and I nearly lost this house, we separated; it was unbelievably hard on our family.

We went to trial and they showed up with their five attorneys compared to my one guy, an ex-Muslim. The judge said, “It does not seem that either side was willing to negotiate a settlement, so we are going to proceed.” Their head lawyer stood up and said, “Who said we are not willing to negotiate a settlement? We will do that right now.”

They pushed me. For two years, they would not talk about any settlement until the first minute of the trial because this is what they do. They push you and push you and push you for 2 years of your life and chew you up. Then we settled and then they put a gag order on me so I cannot tell you any of the details.

My lawyer said, “I can tell you about as much as I can tell you. It is what I have said publicly. However, that is it. I am out of a second job. Now, you sue two universities because you are an atheist, word gets around.” So since 2010, every gig I have applied for and I have won major awards.

Jacobsen: I saw the listing.

DiCarlo: Yes. I am well published, I am well connected, but I have been told they are never going to hire you because they are never going to take the risk.

Jacobsen: I know it.

DiCarlo: So, my life and my families life where I should have been a normal tenured professor making a pretty decent income, publishing, not having to worry about so many different things all the time, has been taken from me and I have no recourse because the lawsuits are done.

I won both lawsuits but they were only for damages and legal fees and things like it. So, they by no means made our family better off. So, I am stuck in this netherworld where I am pretty sure I am never going to get a tenured position unless I know somebody so deep like a chair or a dean who looks at my work and says, “Yes, get this guy on staff. This is the type of person we need here.”

Unless you become that big, but even then the unions can keep you out, there are all other ways you can be kept out. So, I am teaching at U of T and Ryerson where I can and trying to be as good an academic writer as I possibly can.

Now going worldwide with this critical thinking stuff, trying to bring it to developed nations where to me that is the greatest tool to combat inequities and injustices is to give the people the skills to the reason for themselves. So, I am a bit of a renegade secular missionary [Laughing].

3. Jacobsen: I have seen the statistics on Canada. So, when I interviewed Eric Adriaans and I interviewed Pat O’Brien, do you know both of them?

DiCarlo: Yes, I know both.

Jacobsen: In the midst of the research, if you look at the global statistics on no religious affiliation, it is not necessarily atheistic; it can be agnostic or others. Then it is about 16% in North America, 17% in Canada, BC is like 35%.

I am not sure the statistics on Ontario, in particular. But if it is the general national statistics, then, in any class you are going to be teaching in with 30 students, most are going to harbour some belief, where, probably, some religious principles won’t necessarily take unguided evolutionary by natural selection, which is the actual one – not theistic evolution and so on.

The idea itself is an affront to a lifetime for students of religious teachings, which teach them wrong things about origins and the development of humans. I could easily see why it would seem offensive to them because it is going against things; not only that belief, but associated with many other things. They are in the wrong.

DiCarlo: The thing is, with all of this, I am a really nice atheist. I do not come in banging the drum, banging the gong saying, “If you do not believe what I do, you are an idiot.” I am attentive to their belief systems because that is what I have studied at Harvard and throughout my life as to why religious beliefs are so important.

I have talked to Richard Dawkins about this. I said, “Richard, you are showing people a prefrontal cortex thing.” The majority of religious thinkers are limbic. It is an emotional attachment they are having. It is far older and far stronger than what our prefrontal cortex is capable of.

I may think all that I want that my wife is not cheating on me but my limbic system, my gut, is saying, “That bitch is screwing around.” It does not matter how many PhDs I have; our emotions are in most cases going to get the better of us.

When I go into my classes and we have talk about God, especially as it relates to morality and ethics and that thing, the first thing I do is I say, “I am not here to judge you, I am not here to tell you what to believe or not to believe. You all know or have done your research on who I am, it I am an atheist. So, I am telling you right up front that does not mean I want you to be one.”

Jacobsen: That is ideal. It would be like a journalist saying look, “I am part of the NDP, let’s go for the lesson now.” That is ideal because you know up front.

DiCarlo: Yes. I try to say, “You know what? I am here to teach you guys how to think. What you think is left up to you. I am going to give you a skill set. I do not care if you are an atheist. I do not care if you are a Muslim. None of this bothers me. All I care about is: are you doing harm through your beliefs? “

“That is what you need to think about. Are your beliefs in any way generating harm?” Then I give my little soapbox talk. I say, “Look, you are in university. It means your beliefs are going to be challenged. Because where else should they be if not here? If you do not like your beliefs to be challenged in any way, do not take this personally from me, because I am on the spectrum, I am Asperger’s.”

“Do not think I am addressing this to you as a person. I might look at your belief set. But it has nothing to do with you as an individual. However, here’s how things are going to go down. Some of you – you know who you are, I am going to call you what you are. You are Muslim. You have a belief system. If you happen to be a lesbian or a homosexual, you know how tough your life is.”

“I am here to tell you right now there is nothing wrong with you. You are as normal as every heterosexual person in this world. There is nothing wrong with you. If your religion thinks that homosexuality is wrong. Maybe, there is something wrong with it.”

So, I created with Eric Adriaans an underground for students of Muslim faith, Christian faith, whatever, who are way deep in the closet, who can never have this come out for fear of rejection, ostracism, and apostasy. You get tossed out.

I tell them, “If you or anyone you know is facing a difficult time in your life because you know you are homosexual and you know this isn’t going to work well with your particular belief system, contact me once, and we have a secure encrypted site, I can tell you about it. We have meetings with others like you. Those who are wondering what the hell to do because through no fault of your own; you happen to be gay.”

“You try to figure out. Can you be a gay Muslim? I hope you can. If you want to maintain your beliefs in that particular God, you being gay or not should have no effect. So, I am here to tell you, ‘You are a normal human being. If you want help, I am here. It is all I am going to say.’”

Invariably, at the end of almost every class, I take longer to pack up. I take a long time packing up. I talk to whichever students are waiting around and let them all leave because there will be one or two guys. They will be online pretending to do something. They are waiting for everybody to leave.

A guy will come down and he will say, “How sure are you that homosexuals are normal? I said, “As close as science will allow,” which is a high rate of probability. I say, “Let me guess, you are gay?” Half of the time they say, “Yes,” and the other half of the time they say, “No,” but I have a friend [Laughing].

I say, “Fine, have your friend contact me.”

“I will do that sir.”

Sometimes, I never hear from them. They cannot take the risk. Their community, their family, is so important to them, not to disappoint them. If they marry, they have kids. I am sure they must have secret societies.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Author; Educator; Philosopher; Fellow, Society of Ontario Freethinkers; Board Advisor, Freethought TV; Advisory Fellow, Center for Inquiry Canada.

[2] Individual Publication Date: October 8, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-four; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Four) [Online].October 2018; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-four.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, October 8). An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Four). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-four.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Four). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, October. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-four>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-four.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (October 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-four.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Four)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-four>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Four)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-four.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):October. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-four>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Four) [Internet]. (2018, October; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-four.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-10-08

Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Erik Haereid and Rick Rosner (Part Two)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: October 8, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,522

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Rick Rosner and I conduct a conversational series entitled Ask A Genius on a variety of subjects through In-Sight Publishing on the personal and professional website for Rick. Rick exists on the World Genius Directory listing as the world’s second highest IQ at 192 based on several ultra-high IQ tests scores developed by independent psychometricians. Erik Haereid earned a score at 185, on the N-VRA80. Both scores on a standard deviation of 15. A sigma of ~6.13 for Rick – a general intelligence rarity of 1 in 2,314,980,850 – and ~5.67 for Erik – a general intelligence rarity of 1 in 136,975,305. Of course, if a higher general intelligence score, then the greater the variability in, and margin of error in, the general intelligence scores because of the greater rarity in the population. This amounts to a joint interview or conversation with Erik Haereid, Rick Rosner, and myself.

Keywords: actuarial science, America, Erik Haereid, Norway, Rick Rosner, statistics, Scott Douglas Jacobsen.

Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Erik Haereid and Rick Rosner (Part Two)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Erik Haereid: I do not know if you (Rick) think that I am on Trumps and his person’s side concerning immigration policy. I am not! I want mixed cultures, including Muslims. I think multicultural societies enrich us as humans. What I am afraid of is immigration on a large scale, which will challenge the welfare states’ infrastructure. This will probably lead to far-right movements, and unwanted political situations around the world. The best way to prevent far-right environments, racism and xenophobia, is to understand and respect how people think and react in different situations, as when people feel threatened (if the fear is based on facts or illusions doesn’t matter). Mass migration can be the case; consequences of global warming, sea level rise, more wars and conflicts, poverty, hunger… The number of refugees can increase rapidly in the next few decades. This will cause substantial issues, especially moral ones, and on a larger scale than today. I think we have to prepare for worst case scenarios. The best way to do that, as I see it, is to build temporary homes and environments on available areas, directed by UN and the international community; not camps with simple tents and lack of hygiene.

You mention fear of a potential Muslim majority in western countries in the future, pushing Islam and Sharia Laws on the native Christian people. I guess this is a part of the bottomless well of fear that is established, on wrong conditions, among a lot of people in our cultures. Creating fear to gather votes (politicians) and money (Media) is as old as these institutions. Trump is part of a wave of populism hitting the mainland, not only in the USA but also the rest of the western world, like Europe, where we are not that familiar with populism. Trump and his buddies play with people’s emotions, with a mixture of illusions and reality, as more or less decent rhetoricians have done since Cicero. Sometimes this is right and necessary. Other times, like that Trump has banned immigration from some predominantly Muslim countries, this is wrong.

You mention statistics as a basis for more true facts, and I agree. In Scandinavia, Sweden, we had a professor Hans Rosling that used statistics effectual to illustrate certain topics. You mention your buddy who believes that Muslim immigrants do get more children than the native population, as a strategy, and eventually turn the country into a Muslim majority country. Well, I looked it up, and for immigrants that came from Asia, Africa and Latin America to Scandinavia as adults the birthrate was 3,5 children per woman (from 1990 to 2004) (compared to Scandinavian women; birthrate = 1,9 children, today). For immigrants that came to Scandinavia as children, the birthrate was 2,2, and for women born in Scandinavia with parents from Asia, the birthrate was the same as in Scandinavia. The tendency is that immigrants adapt to the same birthrate as the country they move to. I did not find statistics for Muslims separate though. But the point, as you indicated, is to collect data, and use statistical tools to remove fear rather than create it.

You say that the immigrants are not the big danger in the future, but AI. I agree that there are several threats, like you say uncontrolled technological evolution, but also pandemics, asteroids hitting the Earth, and environmental issues like global warming are major problems we have to deal with. These issues do not make migrant issues less important, I think. My view is based on worst-case scenarios. A vast immigration, or fear of it, implies that more people vote for far-right movements and parties. Statistics will certainly help, but fear seems to follow its own path. Statistics cannot say much about an unstable future unless it is almost a copy of the past; predictable. You can give Trump and his equals facts, true facts, but he can hit back with predictions that no one can prove; the future is to a certain extent steered by rhetoricians.

Statistics will have an importance to some degree, and then the irrational nature of humans takes over. In crises, like war zones, people stop acting rational. Another fact is that humans become irrational and immoral when we feel that our connection to the group is threatened.

A known psychological experiment is the Milgram experiment from the beginning of the 1960’s, which revealed that people obey authorities and authority figures even if apparently causing serious injury and distress. Other experiments show that people tend to be irrational or in lack of basic knowledge, for instance answering “Madrid” as the capital of France if the others answered “Madrid” on that question, when they have the choice between using their cognitive abilities and doing the same as the others.

You mention police violence. Yes, there is a problem if one takes for granted that potential violence is correlated with a person’s skin color, the clothes people are wearing and if they have body piercing or not. If the police get into a situation where they feel threatened, why can’t they use methods and weapons that are harmless and remove the potential danger until they have clarified the situation?

I think that humans become more human if we understand how to live together in different cultures and take the best out of each culture; remove the violent parts (I know this is more difficult than I made it sound like). The problem is the fundamentalism, the lack of will to learn from others and adapt, and not the differences.

Rosner: Having read Erik’s reply, I think that the Venn Diagram of how we feel about things is a couple of circles overlapping by 90% if not more. Sorry if he thought that I thought he was on Trump’s side. I do not think that at all. I think that comes from me arguing against the opinions of a conservative friend whom I have been arguing with extensively about this stuff. No, I do not think Erik holds those Trumpian views at all.

And Erik’s done an excellent job at laying out good arguments for not demagoguing immigration. He has some excellent statistics showing that immigrants are generally not trying to take over countries by making a zillion babies. He does not have those statistics for Muslims, but the hope of any country welcoming immigrants is that the immigrants become part of the fabric of that country.

Newcomers embracing a country’s values while adding cultural input of their own makes for that whole rich melting pot kind of deal, and the US has generally been successful as a melting pot. You let people in and you find that for the most part they embrace American values. We are a successful country of immigrants (successful for immigrants and their descendants at least; less so for people who were already here when Europeans arrived).

About the H-1B visas – the smart and talented people visa – it is scary that we might begin turning away people from other countries with skills and some education who want to expand their training or use their talents in this country. They get special visas because, hey, they can contribute. If we scuttle that and if we make the US look inhospitable and unfun for talented people from elsewhere in the world, we are screwing ourselves.

There are other countries – I said this elsewhere – who are very happy to admit smart, skilled people who would have otherwise come here. China seems as if it could be super fun if you are a high-level entrepreneur or engineer. In its industrial cities, you can be a giant of industry.

If you do not mind crappy air quality in places, you can probably live an NBA player-type jet-setty life in Guangzhou or wherever. If the US loses tens of thousands of talented people from around the world to China, maybe India and Europe – I do not know, wherever else people think they can build great lives for themselves, then we will end up being a dumber, less technically nimble nation, and we will eventually cease to lead the world in technology.

We will eventually become a slightly silly, semi-backwater, like Portugal or Spain – countries that used to dominate and are still modern but not at the very forefront of stuff. Not to mention, matters of international dominance aside, that it is straight out dickish to, in an automatic way, deny American values for purposes of fear and demagoguery, and political advantage.

Haereid: Thank you for endorsing my arguments. I agree that the USA is a successful country of immigrants. It’s not easy, and you have done an excellent job the last 200 years. The complications you have had is minor compared to what it could have been. There are victims. But overall you have shown the rest of the world that one can handle a cultural crucible; in less than a couple of dozens of decades.

“About the H-1B visas…”

I agree. That doesn’t seem like a good idea. In competition with the newcomer China you will need all the capacity you can get. It’s not politically smart to prevent know-how, thirsty young people and bright brains helping the business to evolve; including persons from abroad. We are dealing with the butterfly effect. A few brains in a garage or at the boy/girl room can start companies that survive and grow beyond imagination, like GM, Microsoft and Apple. Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and their mates did something spectacular in the 70’s and 80’s. They used their eagerness and intelligence to investigate new sides of life; they were at the cutting edge of information technology. Maybe they were smart and lucky; they were first. One should not prevent that kind of people, wherever they come from in the world, to live and nurture inside the USA if they want to.

9/11 was not only a catastrophic act of terror and violence, but also a lack of US intelligence. I don’t think we can remove this kind of action from the future by closing our borders. There are several western native boys (and girls) that, because of their lack of affiliation, and despair, go into ISIS/Daesh or other fundamentalist groups to fight against whatever, or just do the violence on their own (like Anders B. Breivik in Oslo in 2011). It is not Islamic beliefs per se that makes violence, even though the text in some ways inspires to kill and get paid after death, but the fundamentalism that is attached to it and to all beliefs, all cultures, and all humans. Humans seem to exaggerate everything; we are so damn dramatic! It’s not what we believe in that’s the problem, but why we become narrow-minded and hateful. Our brains seem to take a bunch of shortcuts and easy tracks and forget some basic moral rules that our brains also try to establish. It’s Dionysus against Apollo, Id contra Superego.

We forget that there were a lot more terror in the 1970’s and 80’s than today, which we forget because there was less terror in the 1990’s. Then 9/11 in 2001 came as a chock to us all. You can say that 9/11 erased the terror in the 70’s and 80’s from our memories. A new era began; the Islamic fundamentalist-period. The difference between then and now is that the terror is more global; it can hit you anywhere. I remember the IRA (North Ireland) and ETA (Basque Country, Spain). I also remember the Baader-Meinhof Group (RAF) from Germany. These organizations dominated the news 30-40 years ago. Now it’s Islamic extremists that spread fear around the world. I don’t think it’s clever to use fear as an excuse for closing borders and giving birth and nurture to demagogues. Terrorists want to push some buttons more than kill innocent people.

[Ed. Haereid Addendum]

May 7 I read in a newspaper (CBS News) that the 97-year-old prosecutor from the Nurnberg process in 1946, Benjamin Ferencz, said that “war makes murderers out of otherwise decent people”. Several people, including philosophers like Hannah Arendt, have written about the Nazism, and asked necessary questions. Arendt meant, as I have read her, that evilness is (primarily) not based on sadism but rather obedience. Are human monsters, or are we obedient? The psychological Milgram experiment from 1961 implies that we are obedient and not sadists. But does it matter for the victims?

Why do humans act evil, not only on macro-level as national or religious leaders, but also on micro-level in the school yard (bullying), as mass murderers, psychopaths, sociopaths…? Is it because of one person’s lack of love from his/her parents? Is it because of brain damage? Is it because of a potential destructive pattern we all have inside us? Is it because we get an ecstasy, a rapture that prevents us from acting rational and makes us un-empathic? Is it because of revenge?  Or is it because this is the natural and best way to evolve as a species? Is it because we think this is what the authority expects from us?

Is there any way that we can control our monstrous side?

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Erik Haereid: “About my writing: Most of my journalistic work I did in the pre-Internet-period (80s, 90s), and the articles I have saved are, at best, aged in a box somewhere in the cellar. Maybe I can find some of it, but I don’t think that’s that interesting.

Most of my written work, including crime short stories in A-Magasinet (Aftenposten (one of the main newspapers in Norway, as Nettavisen is)), a second place (runner up) in a nationwide writing contest in 1985 arranged by Aftenposten, and several articles in different newspapers, magazines and so on in the 1980s and early 1990s, is not published online, as far as I can see. This was a decade and less before the Internet, so a lot of this is only on paper.

From the last decade, where I used more time doing other stuff than writing, for instance work, to mention is my book from 2011, the IQ-blog and some other stuff I don’t think is interesting here.

I keep my personal interests quite private. To you, I can mention that I play golf, read a lot, like debating, and 30-40 years and even more kilos ago I was quite sporty, and competed in cross country skiing among other things (I did my military duty in His Majesty The King’s Guard (Drilltroppen)). I have been asked from a couple in the high IQ societies, if I know Magnus Carlsen. The answer is no, I don’t :)”

Haereid has interviewed In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal Advisory Board Member Dr. Evangelos Katsioulis, some select articles include topics on AI in What will happen when the ASI (Artificial superintelligence) evolves; Utopia or Dystopia? (Norwegian), on IQ-measures in 180 i IQ kan være det samme som 150, and on the Norwegian pension system (Norwegian). His book on the winner/loser-society model based on social psychology published in 2011 (Nasjonalbiblioteket), which does have a summary review here.

Erik lives in Larkollen, Norway. He was born in Oslo, Norway, in 1963. He speaks Danish, English, and Norwegian. He is Actuary, Author, Consultant, Entrepreneur, and Statistician. He is the owner of, chairman of, and consultant at Nordic Insurance Administration.

He was the Academic Director (1998-2000) of insurance at the BI Norwegian Business School (1998-2000) in Sandvika, Baerum, Manager (1997-1998) of business insurance, life insurance, and pensions and formerly Actuary (1996-1997) at Nordea in Oslo Area, Norway, a self-employed Actuary Consultant (1996-1997), an Insurance Broker (1995-1996) at Assurance Centeret, Actuary (1991-1995) at Alfa Livsforsikring, novice Actuary (1987-1990) at UNI Forsikring, and a Journalist at Norsk Pressedivisjon.

He earned an M.Sc. in Statistics and Actuarial Sciences from 1990-1991 and a Bachelor’s degree from 1984 to 1986/87 from the University of Oslo. He did some environmental volunteerism with Norges Naturvernforbund (Norwegian Society for the Conservation of Nature), where he was an activist, freelance journalist and arranged ‘Sykkeldagen i Oslo’ twice (1989 and 1990) as well as environmental issues lectures.

He has industry experience in accounting, insurance, and insurance as a broker. He writes in his IQ-blog the online newspaper Nettavisen. He has personal interests in history, philosophy, reading, social psychology, and writing.

He is a member of many high-IQ societies including 4G, Catholiq, Civiq, ELITE, GenerIQ, Glia, Grand, HELLIQ, HRIQ, Intruellect, ISI-S, ISPE, KSTHIQ, MENSA, MilenijaNOUS, OLYMPIQ, Real, sPIqr, STHIQ, Tetra, This, Ultima, VeNuS, and WGD.

Rick G. Rosner: “According to semi-reputable sources, Rick Rosner has the world’s second-highest IQ. He earned 12 years of college credit in less than a year and graduated with the equivalent of 8 majors. He has received 8 Writer’s Guild Award and Emmy nominations, and was named 2013 North American Genius of the Year by The World Genius Registry.

He has written for Remote Control, Crank Yankers, The Man Show, The Emmy Awards, The Grammy Awards, and Jimmy Kimmel Live!. He has also worked as a stripper, a bouncer, a roller-skating waiter, and a nude model. In a TV commercial, Domino’s Pizza named him the World’s Smartest Man. He was also named Best Bouncer in the Denver Area by Westwood Magazine.

He spent the disco era as an undercover high school student. 25 years as a bar bouncer, American fake ID-catcher, 25+ years as a stripper, and nude art model, and nearly 30 years as a writer for more than 2,500 hours of network television.

He lost on Jeopardy!, sued Who Wants to Be a Millionaire over a bad question, and lost the lawsuit. He spent 35+ years on a modified version of Big Bang Theory. Now, he mostly sits around tweeting in a towel. He lives in Los Angeles, California with his wife and daughter.

You can send an email or a direct message via Twitter, or find him on LinkedIn, or see him on YouTube.”

[2] Individual Publication Date: October 8, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/haereid-rosner-two; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Erik Haereid and Rick Rosner (Part Two) [Online].October 2018; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/haereid-rosner-two.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, October 8). Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Erik Haereid and Rick Rosner (Part Two). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/haereid-rosner-two.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Erik Haereid and Rick Rosner (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, October. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/haereid-rosner-two>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Erik Haereid and Rick Rosner (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/haereid-rosner-two.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Erik Haereid and Rick Rosner (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (October 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/haereid-rosner-two.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Erik Haereid and Rick Rosner (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/haereid-rosner-two>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Erik Haereid and Rick Rosner (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/haereid-rosner-two.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Erik Haereid and Rick Rosner (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):October. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/haereid-rosner-two>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Erik Haereid and Rick Rosner (Part Two) [Internet]. (2018, October; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/haereid-rosner-two.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-10-04

Ask Emily 1 — Entrance Into Civic and Political Life

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee: Emily LaDouceur

Numbering: Issue 1: Inaugural Issue

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: Question Time

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: October 4, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,119

Keywords: Emily LaDouceur, politics, The Good Men Project, United States, women.

By Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Emily LaDouceur is a mother of two boys and Executive Editor for The Good Men Project. After working in higher education administration for over a decade, she left the field to dedicate her life to dismantling the systems and internalized biases that oppress all of us. LaDacouer is a very active and valued member of the team at The Good Men Project. I decided to reach out, as she has been running in politics, recently. She is part of the unprecedented trend in terms of the number of women entering into civic and political life in the United States. It is exciting. Also, it is educational. She agreed to take some time for short interview sessions, where this represents the first one. Enjoy.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Why did you decide to enter into politics?

Emily LaDouceur: For many years, I had been engaged in the political process, volunteering on numerous campaigns…even shaking Obama’s hand after a day of canvassing in Westchester, PA in 2008. In those times, I never saw myself as someone who could even run for office. It was only after watching so many women stepping up to run for office, many of them winning, that I said to myself, “I could do this. I SHOULD do this.”

Jacobsen: In the US, post-November 2016, we see the record numbers of women entering into civic and political life in America. Why?

LaDouceur: We’ve been left out of the political process for too long. Women are waking up more and more every day, realizing our own oppression and unpacking our internalized sexism. We feel compelled to act! If not us, then who?

Jacobsen: How did you become part of the asynchronous, grassroots move on the part of women and mothers to become civically and politically more engaged — in leadership roles — than ever?

LaDouceur: I don’t think it’s been asynchronous at all. Women have been the strongest organizers on the ground since the dawn of time. We’ve just shifted our focus from propping up male candidates to elevating ourselves, encouraging each other to run and beginning the process of grooming young women for leadership roles. Succession planning will be key for us to sustain this movement.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Emily.

Image Credit: Emily LaDouceur.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and Question Time by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com and https://medium.com/question-time

Copyright 

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time 2012-2020. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Question Time with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2018-10-01

An Interview with Stacey Piercey (Part One)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: October 1, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,677

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Stacey Piercey is the Co-Chair of the Ministry of Status of Women Sub-Committee of Human Rights for CFUW FCFDU and Vice Chair of the National Women’s Liberal Commission for the Liberal Party of Canada. She discusses: personal and family background; early life and impact on experiences; professional experiences and professional certifications; being a former candidate member of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia for the BC Liberal Party; running for politics in Victoria-Swan Lake, and politics as a trans or transgender person; being a mentor at the Canadian Association for Business Economics; being the Vice Chair of the National Women’s Liberal Commission for the Liberal Party of Canada/Parti Libéral du Canada; being the Co-Chair for the Ministry of Status of Women Sub-Committee of Human Rights at CFUW FCFDU (Canadian Federation of University Women); and hopes and fears, regarding Canadian culture and public discourse, in 2018/19.

Keywords: Co-Chair, Liberal Party of Canada, Ministry of Status of Women, Stacey Piercey, Vice Chair.

An Interview with Stacey Piercey: Co-Chair – Ministry of Status of Women Sub-Committee of Human Rights, CFUW FCFDU; Vice Chair National Women’s Liberal Commission at Liberal Party of Canada | Parti libéral du Canada (Part One)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What is family background regarding geography, culture, language, and religion or lack thereof

Stacey Piercey: My family and I are from the island of Newfoundland, for generations we have resided in Placentia Bay. It is somewhat rural, steeped in traditions, accompanied by a robust evangelical background from being Salvation Army. We have developed a strong sense of independence and resourcefulness from this isolation, believing in self-reliance, community and compassion for others. We lived off the land, close to the sea and benefitted from what we were given to us by nature.

2. Jacobsen: What is personal early life for you? Did this familial background impact perspective and experiences of the world?

Piercey: I grew up in a small town, working class, with the primary industries being that of shipbuilding and fishing. I had a great childhood, I was in every activity imaginable, from the arts, sports and community groups. I prefer intellectual pursuits and technology. I had lots of friends and a rather large family. Later I was married, and my life was somewhat normal with the advantages and privileges of our time. I got to travel, and I think that helped me come into my own. I believe growing up where I did put me on the right path, with a passion for volunteering, community building and social skills, and confidence in myself and my abilities.

3. Jacobsen: What were the professional experiences and educational certifications before the current human rights work?

Piercey: I have a degree in economics and business administration from Memorial University and a college diploma in information technology with a focus on accounting, business, and computer applications. Also, certificates in investing from the Canadian Securities Institute. I moved away after school from my home in Newfoundland, due to the lack of professional opportunities. I worked in advertising in Toronto. I managed other businesses until I eventually started my own. My first venture was in educational resources, my second was in digital marketing, and now I am working at being a writer. I always have been very active socially and in volunteering my time with groups such as Toastmasters, political parties, women’s groups, public education, the church and executive boards. Even more so I have always better myself through painting, writing and music lessons. This list goes on and on. I am the type of person who is involved in something, I am a passionate reader and consider myself a life-long learner.

4. Jacobsen: You were a former candidate member of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia for the BC Liberal Party. What inspired this move in professional life?

Piercey: I was not inspired to be a political candidate. I turned down the request several times. I consider myself to be an introvert; I was not where I wanted to be in life for this opportunity, I was coming into my own, after my transition and regaining my confidence. I didn’t think I was the personality type or someone who is out-going nor did I want the attention or was comfortable being in the media. I did attend political meetings and socialized within organizations my whole life. It is a safety thing for me, hanging out with politicians, lawyers, investors, and community leaders as they are well behaved, and it is a safe place for a respectable transgender woman. I know now; my friends get me in and out of trouble at times. I was very concerned as a transgender woman about the problems I would face. It took me a while to realize how much I have overcome with my transition. I learned to speak up for myself, ask my friends for help and to go right to the top to solve the issues that I had. I was always there doing this work behind the scenes. Eventually, I was in a situation where I became known to people beyond my social circle. I was overwhelmed. I didn’t realize how vital a transgender woman with the Liberal Party of Canada was around the world. I had a lot of amazing people that encouraged me to run, I realized it was my time, and I eventually said yes for the experience and to see if this was me. It is a great honour to put yourself forward and to run for public office. I did run into problems. I faced my fears, and I have become better because of the experience.

5. Jacobsen: Also, you have a first attached to running for politics in Victoria-Swan Lake. One of the firsts for the trans or transgender community as a result. It is not central to the quality of character or political party platforms-and-policies, but it is an important facet of the narrative of professional, and personal, life. What was the reaction or feedback from the public as a trans or transgender political candidate in Victoria-Swan Lake? Obviously, as we both know, the general public can be mixed on the trans or transgender community, for a variety of reasons.

Piercey: I honestly don’t know where to begin. Campaigns take on a life of there own. I started mine out on a tv spots saying “jobs, jobs, jobs, this election is about the economy.” But my campaign started years before that in retrospect. I was advocating for transgender human rights; I was someone on many executive boards, I was a business owner, I knew people from my neighbourhood, I had friends that wanted to help me, family support and I was in tune with the issues in Victoria-Swan Lake from all of my involvement in the community. What was strange, this experience was more like a public roast for all of the hard work that I did behind the scenes. The image created of me in the media was not me, I spent my time knocking on doors and talking to people. It was weird to read the paper and see what I said when I don’t even know how to think like the comments I saw, and at the same time having to explain it. Politics is local, but my campaign gained international attention once the word transgender came out. Despite all of the policies that I worked on, the studying I did to prepare, and the training that I did receive, it was difficult to focus my campaign on the issues because for many I was the first transgender person they met. I had moments where it was more about me justifying my existence and my right to be a candidate. I felt like a teacher and, was distracted at times, I was pigeoned-holed or considered a gimmick and dismissed because I was a transgender woman. I think I received extra criticism because I was transgender, and I was harassed beyond belief online. And I saw some things that made me sick. I was the image and the face of transgender people. I understood, what I was doing was ground-breaking. That was the campaign that I saw from my seat watching the public.

What I was doing the whole time, I was meeting my riding. My riding was great to me in person and as an individual. I got to meet my neighbourhood, make friends, and speak to groups. I wish I had more time to get to know them all; I felt safe; I was welcomed into homes, I sat at kitchen tables, shared in a coffee, rode the bus, walked trails, and I even walked someone dog. I became my riding, I learn to speak with one voice for their concerns, and I have tremendous respect for the BC Liberal Party that took a chance on me. I don’t think they nor I knew what I was going to go through. I have been told, that I was fearless to do what I did, but I always did this. I impressed myself, I did the work necessary, I ran a good campaign, people enjoyed meeting with me and talking to me too, and I grew as a person beyond my wildest dreams. I recommend this experience to everybody. It is too bad some dismissed my accomplishments because I was transgender and that hurt, I think it made everything harder for me, and I am so proud of what I accomplished. I was studying to be a Citizen Judge at the time, so I held myself to a high standard, and that did help. Now I help others get elected, and I have watched since then other transgender friends run for office. I would have received more votes and probably could have gotten elected with any other party, but I wanted the training, the friendships and to do this with a government that was in power for 16 years. My background confirmed to me of the choices available. I am a BC Liberal. I still didn’t know what they think; I do feel like I crashed the party. I didn’t realize I would be kicked out of the LGBTQ community because I ran with a party that was a coalition of Liberals and Conservatives. I was considered entitled and evil by my friends at the time. In their minds, I cross the floor and join the enemy. I think others were scared for me and tried to protect me too or worse educate me. It was all so strange, and I never had so much fun before either. Afterwards, with all the parties having transgender candidates in BC, transgender human rights was established nationally in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. It was all worth it. Because I know what my life was like before I transitioned, I lost so much that the average person takes for granted and I will never get all of that back again. Now I have equality under the law, and I can rebuild my life.

6. Jacobsen: How did you mentor at the Canadian Association for Business Economics? How do you mentor? What are the basic, and then advanced, dos and don’ts of mentorship?

Piercey: I have been with the Canadian Association of Business Economist for a while. It is an excellent organization for an economist in Canada. We get to practice our presentations within the group. I am privileged to know, meet and be a part of this collection of economists from the public and private sector. I also get to share in the information, through webinars and in-person meetings and presentations. I was a coach in sports, I am an executive advisor and have been in the mentor role on many occasions with other groups. I was encouraged to be a mentor, to help other individuals in banking or government that were economists starting their career, as I could be of great assistance. I was a mentee first, for a year to get to know the program. Now I am a mentor to others. It is about being an economist. It is where despite our background we share a perspective, exchange knowledge and ideas with others.

The mentoring program involves activities such as information sharing, informal teaching, general career advice and coaching. It is part of an overall strategy to encourage members to reach their career potential, enhance career development, offer supports, increase networks, and open lines of communication with other members. I act as a guide, adviser and sounding board. This program enriches the work-life experience, discusses options without judgment and provides feedback. We establish an atmosphere of trust, explore choices and possibilities, providing information and instruction, and I, act as a role model to assist the mentee. My styles have been to go for coffee and chat, create a safe environment, with an understanding of helping. I learn as much in this setting too because we share experiences and support each other. I may be older, or the mentor, but we are equal, as economists.

7. Jacobsen: As the Vice Chair of the National Women’s Liberal Commission for the Liberal Party of Canada/Parti Libéral du Canada, how did you earn this station? What tasks and responsibilities come with it? How do you maintain moral excellence in professional conduct while in a high-level national position?

Piercey: I am a member of the Liberal Party of Canada, I have taken on many roles over the years and have received lots of training. I was a director and was on a few committees; then I was asked to join the BC Women’s Commission as the riding association representative. It seemed simple enough to speak up for the woman on the riding association as an executive member. Then very quickly I became Direct for Vancouver Island to Director with the province of BC. Then when I moved back to Newfoundland, I was voted Chair for Newfoundland Labrador Women’s Commission, and I speak for this province on our national board and lead our commission here too. I am also on the provincial executive for the party with our seven federal Members of Parliament. I am on the policy committee provincially, and the policy committee with the Women’s Commission too. I became and was voted Vice Chair for the National Commission after our President left to run for the leadership of a provincial party. I connect the ridings in Atlantic Canada as Vice-President. Also, I am part of the Women caucus with all of our women Member of Parliament; we work with government ministries, especially the Ministry for the Status of Women. The commission promotes gender equality, encourage participation in politics and gender policies in this country. What I like most is the friendship from having a representative from each province and territory in Canada, and that support network, I can not say enough how great it is when we have our meetings and to check in with the country through these ladies. I don’t think about maintaining moral excellence; I am more concerned about staying on top of things, to be honest. I do trust all of my experience, and knowledge gained has created the person I am today. I have learned when to speak up, I might not be the smartest or most knowledgeable on any subject, but I do lead and give other the confidence to try to voice their opinions or stand up against injustice. I am still learning. It is a prestigious title, and I often forget. I am just me, and I enjoy this role, and it doesn’t feel like it is work either. Then someone will ask me about it, and I share some stories, and I get a hug or asked for my autograph, then it hits home, this is important. I have learned much from the women with the Liberal Party of Canada on this commission, we are an incredible team, and we have our way of doing things. They are my strength, and my motivation to make this a better world. I realized I am in this role because of all of the work I have done, all the boards and campaigns that I have been a part of and I am so proud of this title and the policies we have created.

8. Jacobsen: As the Co-Chair for the Ministry of Status of Women Sub-Committee of Human Rights at CFUW FCFDU (Canadian Federation of University Women), what tasks and responsibilities come with this position? What are the main difficulties and subject matter covered through the federation

Piercey: I have been a member of the Canadian Federation of University Women for a while, I have been on the executive with my local chapter, with the education trust fund and I enjoy our social groups. These ladies are great, and we do so much in the community. What the CFUW is, it is a national organization working to ensure that all girls and women have equal opportunities and equal access to quality education within a peaceful and secure environment where their human rights are respected. We work to reduce poverty and eliminate discrimination. We create equal opportunities for leadership, employment, income, education, careers and the ability to maximize potential. We strive to promote equality, social justice, fellowship and life-long learning for women.  This role as the Co-Chair for the Ministry of Status of Women Sub-Committee of Human Rights is somewhat new for me. Besides chairing this committee, I am on the CFUW Standing Committee on Advocacy. Both groups have two major reports that we are presenting. The advocacy committee reflects on all of the work that the CFUW does in communities with other organizations. We are connected to and support many groups through our affiliated clubs across the country. With the Status of Women Human Rights Subcommittee, we are now working on a major report, a National Initiative of Preventing and Responding to Violence Against Women and Girls. There is a focus is on Sexual Assault Policies in Post-Secondary Institutions in Canada. It is a big deal because the CFUW holds special consultative status with the United Nations (ECOSOC) and belongs to the Education Committee of the Canadian Commission for UNESCO. We send delegations to the United Nations Commission on the Status of Women. It is a real privilege to be on this committee, and we do fantastic work.

9. Jacobsen: What are hopes and fears, regarding Canadian culture and public discourse, in 2018/19 for you?

Piercey: I will be honest with you; I am a little concerned about Canadian culture and public discourse right now. There is a new attitude in politics around the world that I believe currently to be unhealthy. There is the empowerment of intolerance, excuses to hate others and methods to discriminate that doesn’t look the same as it once did. I noticed the world is a little more hostile in tone and the line that I consider to be decent has been pushed a little further than what I am comfortable in seeing. I am not worried, this is temporary, it will pass, and it will get better over time. I think we are watching a social backlash as there is a changing of the guard from generation to generation around the world. In Canada, we are privileged to lead the way for the next generation. I see that with the election of Justin Trudeau as Prime Minister. He is the first world leader that was my age, with the technology of my generation and the values I am familiar with growing up. We will probably see more change as the world comes together in the next 30 years than we have in the last 300. So I have some fears, they are short-term, and I have great hope, in the long run. I do believe the future will only be better.

10. Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Stacey.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Co-Chair – Ministry of Status of Women Sub-Committee of Human Rights, CFUW FCFDU; Vice Chair National Women’s Liberal Commission at Liberal Party of Canada | Parti libéral du Canada; Mentor, Canadian Association for Business Economics.

[2] Individual Publication Date: October 1, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/piercey; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Stacey Piercey (Part One) [Online].October 2018; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/piercey.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, October 1). An Interview with Stacey Piercey (Part One). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/piercey.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Stacey Piercey (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, October. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/piercey>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Stacey Piercey (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/piercey.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Stacey Piercey (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (October 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/piercey.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Stacey Piercey (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/piercey>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Stacey Piercey (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/piercey.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Stacey Piercey (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):October. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/piercey>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Stacey Piercey (Part One) [Internet]. (2018, October; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/piercey.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-10-01

An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Five)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: October 1, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,551

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Monika Orski is the Ordförande/Chairman, Mensa Sverige/Mensa Sweden. She discusses: the work of Mensa Sweden; announcement and organization of an event; electronic media; ground rules in online fora; tips for women and girls online; online moderators; in-person versus online interactions of Mensa Sweden members; similar interactions online and in-person; expansions of Mensa Sweden’s in-person provisions; technology and online environments to improve Mensa Sweden experiences; and in-person experiences to improve online environments.

Keywords: chairman, Mensa Sverige, Mensa Sweden, Monika Orski, Ordförande.

An Interview with Monika Orski: Ordförande/Chairman, Mensa Sverige/Mensa Sweden (Part Five)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: I want to explore the world of possibilities more for Mensa Sweden. On the one side, the world of electronic media. On the other side, the interactions in-person of Mensa Sweden members. Then, of course, the ways in which electronic community can facilitate and enhance in-person interaction and vice versa. Let’s work in the order presented: for the electronic media, the ability to organize meetups, have fora for discussions and debates, and even vote on important matters of Mensa Sweden governance and policy – at least, potentially – become easier. Does this reflect the work of Mensa Sweden – with examples in relevant domains, please?

Monika Orski: It does, in some ways. We have electronic communications as well as in-person communications. I like to refer to the electronic communications as virtual meetings, to mark that there are both similarities and differences compared to in-person, physical meetings.

We do not use any electronic voting systems, as least not yet. Some other national Mensas do, but decisions by our membership are made at a yearly general meeting, with the possibility of postal ballot for those who do not attend in person. But practically all social interactions and communications within the organization have both electronic and physical sides to them.

2. Jacobsen: How long is the standard time frame given in the announcement and organization of an event or meeting prior to its coming to fruition?

Orski: Depends on the meeting. Our Annual Gathering (AG) is usually decided on and announced two years in advance. The organizers need time to prepare for a four-day event with 500-600 participants. On the other hand, some small, local meetings are announced only days before the actual meeting.

Some local meetings are recurring. For example, in Stockholm, mensans meet at a restaurant on the first Tuesday of every month. We have done so for more than 25 years, and will probably continue to do so as long as the place stays open. This meeting can be considered announced for a long time to come, but the occurrences are usually put into our events calender at the beginning of each year, for the next 12 months.

3. Jacobsen: How can vigorous, respectful debates on various political, philosophical, mathematical, ethical, scientific, and so on, happen more easily through electronic media? I ask because, I know, most people, or everybody, experiences – or has experienced – intense and unpleasant debates, or even simply sour dialogues and discussions, on a number of topics.

Orski: I wish I knew. Unfortunately, electronic communication channels seem to bring out the worst in people. They also tend to be dominated by the few who are very loud and have too much time on their hands. Facebook and Twitter are extreme examples, where obtrusive aggressive behaviour is clearly rewarded, but the basic problems tend to surface sooner or later even on well-handled fora and mailing lists.

There are, however, some counter actions. Groups of people who want a debate that is actual debate, not a hate fest, come together to step in and politely try to turn discussions into real exchange of ideas, with positive feedback to those who show normal, respectful human behaviour. It is hard, but the people who do this help all of us keep some faith in humanity

I do think it is possible to have an electronic forum where respectful debates are possible. It does take some work, and I think the key is to establish clear boundaries early on. Such a forum needs to be moderated, and the ground rules need to be clear, but it is also important to set the level of what is considered normal within that context. When someone steps out of line, it should be clear to everyone that this is not accepted, regardless of whether the moderator is there to immediately deal with the problem.

4. Jacobsen: What seems like reasonable ground rules to set in an online forum to prevent vitriol and maintain respectful communication between the parties involved in them, especially in the cognitively highly capable?

Orski: In my experience, it is important to set ground rules that are generic rather than detailed. A code of conduct, rather than very specific rules. Detailed rules will always trigger some troll to find the equivalent of waving his hand two centimeter from your face while triumphantly shouting “but I’m not touching you”.

The rules should always include that participants need to stay polite, that no ad hominem is allowed, and a general rule that trolling is not allowed. Depending on the context, they might also include rules on what topics are allowed in the specific forum, and that all posts and comments should stay on topic.

Last but not least, a very important ground rule to communicate is ”do not give the moderators a headache”. You are free to think a moderator is wrong, but not to question that the moderator’s ruling is the law of the forum. The referee is the sole judge of the game, and the moderator is the referee of the forum.

5. Jacobsen: In online environments, women and girls get more harassment. Indeed, they receive more harsh criticism and ad hominem attacks, even if their statements remain, functionally in content and tone, the same as a man or a boy – not in all cases but, from qualitative reportage and complaints of women, probably most cases. Any tips for women and girls, especially the highly gifted and talented to stay on topic, in self-protection of cyberbullying, stalking, and harassment?

Orski: Do report harassment. Do report threats. Do report the hate stalkers, or of course all stalkers.

Unfortunately, the legal system tends to ignore those reports. I know very well that reporting threats to the police usually results in a formal answer that they have no way of finding the culprit, even when you provide details that in fact make it very easy to find them. But still, do file the reports. Don’t let the quantity of these threats and harassments go unnoticed by not being in the statistics of reported crime.

My second tip is to talk about it. It’s often hard to do so, but do talk about it. You will be reminded that you are not alone. And it might sound simplistic, but to see the harassing messages outnumbered by even very simple tokens of sympathy usually helps keep your spirit up.

And then, of course, for the cases that are not threats and harassment but simply stupid and often sexist digs, there is the more general tip to remember you are under no obligation to educate any random pundit. If there is no mutual respect, there is no real discussion. Don’t waste your time, you have better things to do. Just leave the trolls to keep throwing mud at each other.

6. Jacobsen: What is the importance of an online moderator in the prevention of these behaviors by many men and boys – or some women and girls? What seems like the appropriate punishments, reactions, or mechanisms to acquire justice in the cases of legitimate cyberbullying, stalking, and harassment? That is, how can the bullied, stalked, and harassed deal with these individuals?

Orski: First and foremost: It is not the job of those bullied, stalked and harassed to deal with the people who abuse them. It is not the obligation of the victim of a crime to administer justice. Everyone, and especially anyone in any kind of leadership position, needs to be clear that it is not up to the victim to change the behaviour of the perpetrator, or to talk to them, or whatever.

Thus, I would say that the importance of online moderators must be clearly stated. If you run a forum, it is your duty to handle those who cannot behave as civilized human beings within the rules stated for that forum, and to remove them from the forum if they will not change their ways. This goes for any forum, be it a mailing list or a Facebook group.

Of course, in theory, the owners of platforms such as Twitter or Facebook should also be held accountable. But the way things work today, we know that does not happen.

7. Jacobsen: Now, to the second aspect, the in-person environment has been the main form of interaction of the highly intelligent in a relatively tight locale. What are some interactions Mensa Sweden members can get in-person but not online?

Orski: In-person interactions are always different to online interactions. That goes for groups as well as individuals. In today’s world, most of us have people we care for but live to far from to see very often, and while online chats and emails certainly help keep those bonds alive, we are always happy to see them and be able to just sit down together to talk. In a slightly diluted form, this goes for group interactions too.

On a less general note, some things need to be done in person. To listen to a lecture online is not the same as to be in the room and able to interact with the lecturer. Online gaming is different from sitting down to a board game. Board games are popular with many mensans, which makes it a good example.

8. Jacobsen: What about similar interactions online as in person but the interactions are simply better, richer experiences for the participants than online?

As mentioned, to sit down together to talk is different from exchanging messages online. In the context of Mensa meetings, or of any larger group, there is also the fact that some people have lots of time on their hands and therefore tend to spend a lot of time in online fora. I don’t mean the trolls now, but people with perfectly normal online behaviour who simply take up a lot of the discussion bandwidth because they are interested and have the time to do so. At an in-person meeting, they will not dominate the discourse in the same way, as discussions tend to take place in smaller groups. This also gives more room for those who tend to talk less.

9. Jacobsen: In the future, what would be wonderful expansions of Mensa Sweden’s in-person provisions for the membership? I mean wildest dreams, wonderful, and dreamy ideas – pie-in-the-sky.

Orski: I think I’m more of a pragmatic, practical Mensa leader than a dreaming visionary. Both kinds are needed, but I’m probably not a very good person to ask for the pie-in-the-sky ideas.

However, I can try. The educational needs of the highly gifted are not very well served today, as we have discussed at length. It would be wonderful to provide a Mensa university, with courses ranging from the level that would help school age children stay interested in education to very advanced post-graduate level courses for those who want to widen the horizons of their everyday work. All free and adapted to the learning pace of the highly intelligent.

Also, there are mensans who discuss plans of common holiday homes. Others dream of some kind of permanent version of the annual gatherings, with lectures and games and common dinners, and most importantly always lots of mensans around to talk to. Some even talk of retirement homes, especially for mensans. It would be a dream idea to provide some sort of complex with all these things, a kind of real life community that members could visit anytime, or even make their permanent home.

10. Jacobsen: To the third facet, the nature of the interaction between the two. How do technology and online environments improve in-person experiences of the Mensa Sweden group?

Orski: Some people come to the in-person meetings only after a time in online groups. They often have a feeling of not being totally new to the environment, and being already acquainted with some other members. Thus, it can help more members actually join the in-person interactions.

Online interactions also help keep up contacts between members in different local groups, and for that matter in different countries. If you meet once a year at a large gathering, it’s good to have some interaction in online groups in-between those events.

Jacobsen: How do in-person experiences provide the basis for enhanced experiences in the virtual environments of the Mensa Sweden group?

Orski: It’s always easier to have good online interactions once you have met the people you interact with. The other side of online interactions reinforcing the contacts made at gatherings, is that meeting up at a gathering will enhance the mutual understanding and discussion climate of online communications.

References

  1. Mensa International. (2018). Mensa Sweden. Retrieved from https://www.mensa.org/country/sweden.
  2. Mensa Sverige. (2018). Mensa Sverige. Retrieved from https://www.mensa.se/.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Ordförande/Chairman, Mensa Sverige/Mensa Sweden.

[2] Individual Publication Date: October 1, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-five; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Five) [Online].October 2018; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-five.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, October 1). An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Five). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-five.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Five). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, October. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-five>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Five).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-five.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Five).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (October 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-five.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Five)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-five>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Five)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-five.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Five).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):October. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-five>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Five) [Internet]. (2018, October; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-five.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-10-01

An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Three)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: October 1, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,379

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Dr. Christopher DiCarlo is an Author, Educator, and Philosopher of Science and Ethics. He discusses: evolution of human reasoning; SR value; supernaturalism; and enforced ignorance for social control.

Keywords: author, Christopher DiCarlo, educator, philosopher.

An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo: Author, Educator, Philosopher of Science and Ethics (Part Three)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: In terms of the evolution of human reasoning, that formed the basis of one book. The other book was on the evolution of religion. Daniel Dennett has done the same. I believe it was Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon.

I might have that wrong. What sources did you consider for writing that text and what is your overall theory or hypothesis?

Dr. Christopher DiCarlo: For the evolution of religion?

Jacobsen: Yes.

DiCarlo: Here’s what happened. If you look at the history of human evolution and we have said the degree of complexity on the Y-axis and we have time on the X-axis, what happens is, it is low. The degree of complexity of tools and all that stuff is low for most of our evolutionary past.

Even at the 200,000-year level where we have speciated and Homo Sapiens comes out of South East Africa and what not, it is still static. Once we get to 40,000 years ago, it goes off the scale. The degree of complexity of art, of tools, clothing, so many different forms of movable statues and fertility rates. We see this reflected in the statues and artworks and cave paintings and hunting and all that stuff. 40,000 years ago, they call it the cultural explosion.

What happened was humans are the only primates where our larynx drops in our throat at about the age of 2, we have a gene that kicks on and our larynx drops.

Jacobsen: A single gene?

DiCarlo: A specific gene yes, a mutation. This is what allows humans to speak unlike any other primate is to articulate and enunciate better. That is why kids can no longer breastfeed because they cannot circular breathe right.

They can breathe and swallow at the same time. I would not suggest you try that now. You will get a bit of a shock. So, when that larynx does drop, and it drops about the age of 2, you cannot normally shut kids up. They have been babbling and doing this proto-language.

Suddenly now, they have the hardware that will facilitate language development better. so we know roughly when the genes mutated. We can hypothesize as to when this occurred. We know no other primates or apes have this.

To me, that along with the development of the brain and not the brain itself because Neanderthal brains were larger, but they did not develop technologically as well as Homo Sapiens did, led to a perfect storm. Feudalism, diet change, meat feeds the brain, the brain is a very expansive organ. 20% of your bodies’ energy goes into feeding your brain.

We do not have claws or camouflage or fangs but 3 pounds of electric meat here. All these things were coming together. Bipedalism, nomadic movement through Africa and Asia, genetic differentiation, pharyngeal developments.

Philip Lieberman at Chicago has done some of the best work in understanding that aspect of human evolution. So, absolutely, his son was at Harvard. he is still there. He is the one in the Danube and maintains that when you look at humans when you look at Homo Sapiens when you look at us, we are one of the few that can rotate.

Our rib cage rotates as we run. If you look at other apes, they do not have that ability. Other apes are bow-legged. The way our hips extend, the femoral is different. The way women give birth and so on and so forth. So, Dan at Harvard believes that Homo Sapiens were runners.

You look at the arch of our foot, when you look at our glutes and how they attach to our hamstrings and you look at the fact we can rotate as we run, they have shown the bushman of the Kalahari running wildebeest to their death.

They hyperventilate because they must stop and breathe to cool down and these bushmen keep running and running until they collapse from heat exhaustion. So, I looked at all these factors as humans were evolving and then my hypothesis is that consciousness and language were fed on each other like a cyclical feedback loop.

The more consciously aware you are of an environment, the more you are going to be able to use a language to describe that which you are conscious. the more aware our ancestors would have become of various things that would have led to what I call, “SR value,” or “survival reproductive value.”

Certain things you ought to do, certain things you ought not to do! Gravity is a great lesson. So, I tie this into what I call natural logic or how I believe Aristotle might have figured out the 3 laws of logic. The Law of Identity, the Law of Contradiction, and the Excluded Middle; that is, they are extremely dichotomous.

As my dog knows, there is either something in his bowl or there is nothing in his bowl. He may have some grey area that there’s something in there. Animals know distinctions more clearly than they know vagueness or that shady area between those states. Our ancestors would have been like that.

Predator-prey, male-female, friend-foe, night-day, hot-cold, all these varying diverse types of degrees, would have led them to think of the way the world works. When it came to the perfect storm of all these elements, the brain size is complete, bipedalism is complete, pharyngeal development is complete; now, we start moving along through Africa and Asia and running into diverse groups. Boys can communication and ideas start to take off.

How to start fires, how to hunt differently, and they would have ripped each other left, right and centre because whatever is going to increase your survival reproductive value, we tend to think are going to be operationally taken.

So, in trying to understand causality, that is one element in the picture of the development of the mythology of religious views. Then there’s morality. There is a system of “do’s and don’ts” within any group. You should or should not hunt this way. We need to act in that way.

If it were an alpha male type of tribe before pair bonding began, then as we see with pan troglodytes, if you mess with the big guy, you are going to pay. If you try to get in on the harem of females, you are going to pay. Where bonobos are not dimorphic, they are equal in size, so they have an entirely different strategy of accommodating actives and that thing.

Again, we must be careful when we look at activities of other species. We cannot say, therefore, one group of species act this way so, therefore, our ancestors did. Because Dewahl would say they do not act anything.

Needless to say, once all of this started to develop and we saw 40,000s years ago, 30,000 years ago, 20,000 years ago, we saw more and more specific ways they were hunting and foraging and trapping and putting objects in art. We can conclude that they had to consciously know what they were doing at that time that.

It took foresight and forethought to imagine the world in a way. All right, so then how does religion come into being? Well we have causality, we have morality, “the do’s and don’ts” within a group and then there is mortality. We start to see the first ritualistic burials about 70,000 years ago.

Jacobsen: Did Neanderthals have this as well?

DiCarlo: Neanderthals did but not as complex as Cromagnon or the rest of the Homo Sapiens. Much more complex involved about 30,000, 45,000 years ago. Finding skeletons buried with beadwork and things of value, e.g., straightened mammoth tusks, which take forever to heat and then retract and all that.

So, stuff that would be valuable. We know by that; we can infer by that that something was going on. It is not by accident they kicked all this stuff in. They are laid there very precisely. This stuff was of excellent value to them. So, mortality, we had causality trying to explain what is going on in the world so it can increase your survival reproductive value.

Morality or sense of morals within a group or the “do’s and don’ts,” which are hopefully going to keep the cohesion of the group working well. Now mortality, which is by analogy, you are going to end up like the person you buried.

So, to me, those 3 things more than likely gave way to the development and invention of things beyond their capacity to reason. They did not have a seismic plate tectonic model to explain the volcanic activity. They did not. It made more sense that the mountain is angry.

I have camped deep off the beaten path in my life and in one week we had 5 days of rain straight, 5 days and 5 nights. Nothing worsens your trip more than having waterproof matches not work because they are so bloody damp.

And on the night of the 5th day when we started to see some blue sky and then the skies finally cleared, and we saw a very spectacular sunset, the guy I was with was pretty much giggling like an idiot. It hit me why people could worship the Sun. It hit me. I was grateful but there was nothing really; there is no God.

It was the events and my circumstances that led me as a highly educated 21st-century person to say, “Boy am I glad the rain has stopped.” I wanted to thank something or someone. I wanted to show my gratitude.

When you step back from yourself, even as emotional as that is, you’ve been through a nasty time for 5 straight days and nights. Now, you’re being thrown a bone as it were, it seemed perfectly natural for me to understand why people with unsophisticated levels of scientific understanding to say, “Of course, the mountain is angry,” or, “Look at what the gods have done for us.”

That is why all 3 of those factors, understanding causal forces, developing a moral system within your group: if you cannot enforce, then you develop something that will enforce it. Because it sees you no matter where you are.

Then the mortality thing, “No he’s not dead, he’s still alive but he’s alive in some other sense that we don’t understand.” These were then naturally developing proto-scientific ways to try and deal with natural factors in the environment.

2. Jacobsen: In terms of SR value, if you have causality, morality, and mortality with respect to youth and the fertility of men and women, how would these 3 factors play into a hypothetical scenario? To make it concrete for people reading this.

DiCarlo: So if you’re talking about several thousand years ago on a South Pacific island that happens to be volcanic and it can threaten the entire life of the particular group that is inhabiting nearby and you want to appease the mountain god, the most prized thing you have is your virgins who haven’t yet laid down with men.

So, the old cliché of chucking the virgin into the volcano to appease the mountain god. If a group did such an act and the mountain, the seismic activity coincidentally subsided, it is very easy to have confirmation bias and maintain that that must have been the cause.

So, my old saying is, show me a Polynesian group living on an island with an active volcano and I will show you a lot of nervous virgins. Interestingly enough, it might be motivation enough for those virgins to not be virgins anymore. They could try to get out of that classification group.

So that is one very crude, simplistic example, but you can see it in ways of not having a robust understanding of the true forces that are in work. The natural, not the supernatural but the natural, forces at work. Maybe, it might be a clever idea to put your efforts into shipbuilding and get off that island and get to a nearby one that has the same types of natural resources, but is not going to kill you!

3. Jacobsen: Those 3 same factors, as is it applied to not only religion but another broader term, supernaturalism, how would that play into the evolution of a supernaturalist? the general principle for looking at the world from which you can derive various angels and demons and ghosts and these things.

DiCarlo: I do not wish to oversimplify this in any way. Remember, we do not have the time machine, so we must put the pieces together hoping that we are doing an accurate enough job.

What you and I both know is that should supernatural belief systems become entrenched and embedded in a group, those become the most valued beliefs that that group is going to have. Therefore, those that are the “experts” in those beliefs. Are they going to be the least powerful?

Jacobsen: Not even close, they are going to be the shamans.

DiCarlo: They’re going to know right away, “I got a good thing here.” They are going to get more sex, more food. They are going to get treated better. They are going to get levels of privilege that will increase their SR value right off the scale. Once that came to be realized by members of a group; do not forget, we know that the genes for mental health issues like schizophrenia are recent. They are recent mutations.

Jacobsen: Like tens of thousands of years recent?

DiCarlo: I am not saying every shaman was schizophrenic, but hearing voices and seeing the world differently from others might have been valued in an organization that was living in a proto-scientific world and thought, “Wow, you hear voices?”

“Yes, from the great beyond!”

Meanwhile, they have a gene mutation right.

So, we cannot say that is the case in every example but what we can say is, “Okay, power is affiliated with belief systems that are amongst the most valued with any particular group,” and we have seen this for a long time throughout history, through recorded history.

We have seen it through the dark ages, you have seen it. What were the value places during the dark ages? Monasteries. These guys, all they had to do was pray for the villagers and the villagers would bring them food, they would be protected, it would be a decent life to be a monk as far as you are probably never going to starve.

You might get sacked every now and again from marauders. Whether they are Islamic or Christian or whatever but for the most part, they are doing all right because they are the keepers of the greatest knowledge. Once Gutenberg comes along and we have a movable type and people are becoming vastly literate, my favourite book of all time gets translated from the Greek to the Latin.

It is Outlines of Empiricism, the basis for skepticism. The other two names were Zappa because I am a huge Frank Zappa fan. Bonzo because John Bonham, to me, was the greatest rock and roll drummer, from Led Zeppelin, of all time. Anyhow, this little book wreaked a lot of havoc in Europe. The Vatican feared this book.

Here is a book saying there is no definitive proof of any god whatsoever, so you must suspend judgement. You cannot say you know, so suspend judgement! The ancient skeptics were the precursors for the Renaissance, the Enlightenment, and Pragmatism. In many estimations, the scientific method that we have now.

When people start yipping at each other, I pull this book out and say, “You have some philosophers to be thankful to because they saw the world in a naturalistic way.” They said, “There may be supernatural elements out there, we are not denying them. that nobody can demonstrate that.”

We do not have a reality-measuring stick. So, until you do, let us figure out how to function within the natural world and try to know it as best as we can and if there is something supernatural out there, maybe, someday, we figure it out. Maybe, someday, we don’t figure it out, but we’re not waiting around for it to happen.

The old saying is somebody must take out the trash. At the end of the day, we still must live. So that book, thanks to Gutenberg and so many others, the unwashed masses now become literate and what a huge threat that became to these established monasteries, to the Vatican, to other very well-established places within Western Europe, where this stuff was away and was very privileged information.

It served the monasteries well to keep the people ignorant and fearful, which, when you think about other political regimes throughout the world, that is a theme. That is a major theme. If you can keep your people uneducated, you can keep them a little fearful; you can control them extremely well.

4. Jacobsen: Didn’t the British empire do that to the Irish?

DiCarlo: Yes, look at the shaman, the shaman who claimed to know certain things. If anybody can, and I have often thought, how would you challenge a shaman? Even if a shaman is telling you something that is going to reduce the groups SR value significantly, would there have been a schism? Where one person says, “You’re nuts man, you’re crazy. We are not going to sacrifice my daughter. I have had enough of this. We are gone. We are going to go our way and you go your way. ”

What would it have taken to have gone against those types of sacred views? The views that were amongst the most important to a group.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Author; Educator; Philosopher; Fellow, Society of Ontario Freethinkers; Board Advisor, Freethought TV; Advisory Fellow, Center for Inquiry Canada.

[2] Individual Publication Date: October 1, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-three; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Three) [Online].October 2018; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-three.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, October 1). An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Three). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-three.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Three). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, October. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-three>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-three.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (October 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-three.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-three>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-three.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):October. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-three>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Three) [Internet]. (2018, October; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-three.

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© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-10-01

Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Erik Haereid and Rick Rosner (Part One)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: October 1, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,861

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Rick Rosner and I conduct a conversational series entitled Ask A Genius on a variety of subjects through In-Sight Publishing on the personal and professional website for Rick. Rick exists on the World Genius Directory listing as the world’s second highest IQ at 192 based on several ultra-high IQ tests scores developed by independent psychometricians. Erik Haereid earned a score at 185, on the N-VRA80. Both scores on a standard deviation of 15. A sigma of ~6.13 for Rick – a general intelligence rarity of 1 in 2,314,980,850 – and ~5.67 for Erik – a general intelligence rarity of 1 in 136,975,305. Of course, if a higher general intelligence score, then the greater the variability in, and margin of error in, the general intelligence scores because of the greater rarity in the population. This amounts to a joint interview or conversation with Erik Haereid, Rick Rosner, and myself.

Keywords: actuarial science, America, Erik Haereid, Norway, Rick Rosner, statistics, Scott Douglas Jacobsen.

Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Erik Haereid and Rick Rosner (Part One)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Erik meet Rick. Rick meet Erik. The topic is ‘The Future of Statistics and Actuarial Science’ for this discussion. Erik, you are a statistician and actuary. That is, you have the relevant expertise. Therefore, it seems most appropriate to have the groundwork, e.g. common terms, premises (or assumptions), and theories within statistics and actuarial science, provided by you. To begin, what are the common terms, premises (or assumptions), and theories within statistics and actuarial science at the frontier of the disciplines? From there, we can discuss the future of statistics and actuarial science within a firm context. 

Erik Haereid: I thought the topic should be more common. I am not comfortable talking about the latest theories within Statistics and Actuarial Science; I have never practiced as a statistician even though I have an M.Sc. in Statistics. I have worked the last 20 years primarily with insurance administration; as manager, entrepreneur and as a consultant (pension schemes for companies; DB- and DC-plans, pension accounting and so on), and only in the life insurance and pension fields. I have not worked with insurance mathematics in 20 years. If you insist on using insurance as a topic, we must concentrate on life insurance and pension in Norway from 1960 to today. This is my premise. I think that I know the Norwegian life insurance area from the 1960’s until today well, but I hoped that we could concentrate on a more interesting and common topic; there are so many things going on in the world today. I thought we should talk about a common topic like refugee problems, economy, politics, war, peace, social psychology, aggression, love, existential questions, as intelligent laypeople, and not about topics related to my profession. I have several profound thoughts about many topics. Rick Rosner and I are both 50+ years and have experienced the 1970’s, 80’s and 90’s. Why not use this fact as a basis for a discussion?

2. Jacobsen: Let us start with the first recommendation of the refugee problems:

Both of you are over 50+ years. You have experienced the changes of the 1970s to the present. There is a problem with refugees now. Have there been comparable problems within your lifetimes? What seems like the source of this current refugee crisis? What might alleviate the problems associated with it? What might be a general solution for it?

Haereid: One week ago, a Kenyan judge ruled that the Kenyan government’s plan to close Dadaab, the world’s largest refugee camp, was wrong (“illegal” and “discriminatory”). I think this is a beginning of many refugee camps closures in the future; in Kenya, Liberia, Uganda, Lebanon, Jordan etc.

A lot of migrants moved from Central America to the USA in the 1970’s and 80’s. The Refugee Act brought USA closer to the UN Convention from 1951. Maybe Rick can say something about this event. The Reagan administration was not too happy about the situation.  And I would like to hear Rick’s opinion about Donald Trump’s apparent xenophobia.

I am born 18 years after the end of WW2, and the first catastrophe I remember is the Biafran War, the Nigerian Civil War, from 1967 to 1970. I remember the pictures of the malnourished children with huge bellies. This was hard. The picture of the famine left some psychological scars in a five-year-old boy from a developed country. The Biafran War led to a huge number of refugees inside the country. Then the Biafran Airlift was established and dropped food and medicines over the camps. Nigerian aircrafts tried to stop them from doing this, using hunger as a weapon against the people. I remember the commitment from the rest of the world, how everybody wanted to help. The media did a good job there, by transmitting pure pain into ordinary peoples living rooms. It made people feel empathy, and act.

There have been several wars and refugees for the last five decades, but not like today. The many conflicts, and the Syrian conflict as the main, make the situation today the most severe since WW2. There are approximately 65 million refugees in the world today, and about 21 million are refugees in other countries than their own.

The UNHCR and the international community have to take this situation more serious; this is only a beginning of a possible mass migration that has no end. In my opinion, we have to build separate cities or communities spread all over the world, where migrants and refugees can live temporarily in a sustainable environment. The tent camps have to be replaced by ordinary houses and infrastructure. This will be cheap compared to the alternative; more war, more suffering, more violence, an increasing pressure on the stabilized countries… The international community can for instance rent land from different countries that has land to spare.

When integrating or resettling too many refugees we will experience more far-right politics. We can expect a blooming extremism and fundamentalism when we try to integrate too many refugees and migrants in developed countries like the USA and Europe. Xenophobia expands when we don’t control the stream of refugees. This is as I see it the most important cause to define a limit of the number of migrants coming into USA and Europa. I have to add that I am myself in favour of diversity in any culture; diversity implies less xenophobia when the integration is done right. We learn to like and love; we can’t rush it. The diversity has to rise in right pace. If we move too fast, people get scared and their votes are based on that fear.

We have to learn from the many failures we have done concerning the treatment of refugees all over the world. The Syria crisis is a wake-up call. Today it’s about 5 million Syrian refugees outside Syria; most of them in neighbouring countries like Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan. I think we have to use more money on more sustainable solutions, and that one solution is to build more sustainable reception centers for refugees in areas where they can live temporarily with support from the international community; cities or communities with a certain level of infrastructure, independent of local fluctuations in politics and business. It would be like enclaves protected by the international community; UN, the different governments, non-profit organizations etc.

The final answer is, of course, to make the world more peaceful and balanced, but this answer does not help the 65 million refugees in the world today. This is another question, like how to cure cancer.

The sources of the crisis are war, starvation, environment, despotism, population growth, dreams about a better place…

Well, I think building sustainable communities in migration zones may alleviate the problem. The main task is to help the people who suffer beyond our imaginations. Wars are a consequence of instability. People have to feel safe, feel that they can live normal lives. And to achieve this we have to restore the meaning of the word respect.

Rosner: I recently had the immigration argument with a very conservative guy. So, I am generally not overly informed about political stuff, but on immigration, I am slightly less ill-informed than usual. My buddy argues that the US has let in something like 60 million immigrants in the past 40 years, which is somewhat higher than historical percentages. So, if it weren’t such a politically charged issue, I could see slightly reducing the rate of immigration from the average of 1.5 million per year over the past 40 years, even though that’s well under 1% of the U.S. population per year.

I find that for most political issues, there’s a large set of facts which most people don’t know, and the people who are informing us using these facts cherry-pick the facts to fit their biases. In the case of my conservative buddy, he listens to people who cherry-pick facts about Islam to make Islam sound like the worst thing possible. And because I am ignorant, I can’t argue against them very well.

All I can say is, “Well, that sounds way too awful to actually be the case.” But I don’t have the countervailing facts to fight his facts. One set of facts pertains to the rates and sources of terrorism in America and the rest of the western world. In America, current arguments about immigration are, for the most part, about whether we’re leaving ourselves open to terrorist acts and terrorist infiltrators—terrorist sleepers.

My conservative buddy has the additional argument that if you let in too many Muslim people, who, according to him, have a strategy and a religious obligation to have kids at a higher rate than the native population to eventually turn the country into a Muslim majority country. If you let too many Muslims into America, according to my buddy, they will become a significantly large minority, and they will enforce Sharia Law.

He says to look at Germany and other European countries, where the population is at 10% of the country and seems to be causing some problems. And yeah, I can see where there are some problems there. My friend says that in the 70s, we only had like 60,000 Muslims in the whole country. Now, we have 3 million Muslims because we’ve been letting in immigrants and because immigrants have kids.

My argument is that 3 million is still less than 1% of the total United States population. And even if those 3 million reproduce at a crazy rate, they will not reach the troublesome 10% level in 50 years or 60 years, and in that next 60 years, there will be so many other things happening in America. Muslims are having kids at a faster rate shouldn’t be in the top 3 or top 5 things that we should be worrying about.

I would worry about the social and political upheaval because of the crazy waves of technology that we’re going to continually be hit with over the next 60 years. I would counter the too many Muslims argument with what another friend who works in software and artificial intelligence (AI) says: “By the year 2100, the world may have 1 trillion AI at various levels of sophistication.”

So, I think we need to worry more about how we are going to build a society that can incorporate hundreds of billions of AI rather than whether or not 3 million Muslims will be having too many kids. As I’m speaking, we’re 6 or 7 weeks into the Trump presidency. He will soon be presenting the revised travel ban for 7 countries that give Trump the creeps because he thinks they’re the source of potential bad guys coming in.

My feeling is that we’re already fairly prudent in terms of letting people into the country to live. It takes—I’ve heard in my ignorant way—like 2 years of screening before people get to move here. In my ignorant way, I know that immigrants—both legal and otherwise—have lower crime rates than native-born Americans. So, it seems to me any adjusting we do does not need to be abrupt and draconian, but if we feel we need to protect ourselves more we can adjust existing practices to lower the level of risk presented by the people we let in as official immigrants.

We’ll never get every single dangerous person. This freaks out my conservative friend. He also argues that even if you do get everybody and do let in everybody that it doesn’t prevent the radicalization of their kids who grow up in America because, he claims, the first generation born here is more easily recruited to do terrorist stuff than perhaps their parents who came here as grateful immigrants.

Trump’s first big issue, which he ran on, was kicking out illegal immigrants. In his early campaign, he characterized them as our #1 threat, which, to me, seems like bullshit right off the top because, if you believe the statistics (and some conservative people don’t), prior to ’08, we had about 12.7 million undocumented aliens, and after the economy tanked, the net flow of undocumented immigrants was out of the US.

So, 9 years later, we have 11.7 million undocumented immigrants. Some conservatives say, “How do you know? Maybe there are 30 million undocumented immigrants.” But that’s a hysterical exaggeration. It’s around, say, 12 million. At 12 million, that’s less than 4% of the people in America, and 4% of the people can’t be the source of everything wrong in America in terms of crime, in terms of lost jobs.

It’s 4%. So, you’re not going to make everything better by kicking out the 4%, especially with regard to crime because that 4% has been shown to have a lower crime rate than people who were born here. They don’t have a zero crime rate, there are plenty of bad people among the 4%, but they’re not solidly bad people who are destroying the fabric of America.

Obama was deporting the hell out of people. I don’t know the statistics, but millions over the course of his presidency. A lot of people got deported. Conservatives will argue those numbers are kinda fake because a lot of the deported people come back in, but Obama deported more undocumented aliens than, I guess any other president, ever. [NOTE: Here’s a Snopes explainer of 21st-century US deportation stats. http://www.snopes.com/obama-deported-more-people/

So, I tend to be on the side of doing what we were doing under Obama and if we need to tighten things somewhat, fine, but we don’t need the full-on Trump treatment of immigration. There are a lot of things in the world that should be based on statistics and the best outcomes. Like when you look at instances of possible police incompetence that lead to fatalities, unjustified fatalities, it seems that there should be some statistics-based training of cops the way that sports teams do statistics-based tracking and training.

Basketball, you learn where the sweet spots are. You learn the statistical outcomes. Good coaches know, in basketball, whether you should foul an opposing player or not based on how good he is at shooting free throws. Like Hack-a-Shaq, if somebody’s terrible at free throws, then you deny them the likely 2 points of making a basket and make them shoot free throws. You can apply that to a general model where you don’t foul somebody shooting from behind the 3-point line because that gives them three free throws to shoot.

All of that stuff is based on keeping a lot of statistics and building strategic models based on those stats. You can do the same thing with certain aspects of policing. When, as a cop, you’re approaching a suspect and you’re apprehensive about certain things you’ve noticed about the situation you’re in, you should know what potential actions on your part have statistically minimized the worst possible outcomes.

It seems like that kind of statistical training might be helpful. I don’t know. I’m not a cop. I don’t know what statistics cops keep or what models they use, but, in any case, you can use statistics-based models for immigration. You look at immigration and related statistics, set your risk parameters, for tolerance of risk based on the US being a beacon for immigrants and for various other social and economic statistics, and you build your models and your strategies based on that stuff instead of on demagoguery and freaking out. 

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Erik Haereid: “About my writing: Most of my journalistic work I did in the pre-Internet-period (80s, 90s), and the articles I have saved are, at best, aged in a box somewhere in the cellar. Maybe I can find some of it, but I don’t think that’s that interesting.

Most of my written work, including crime short stories in A-Magasinet (Aftenposten (one of the main newspapers in Norway, as Nettavisen is)), a second place (runner up) in a nationwide writing contest in 1985 arranged by Aftenposten, and several articles in different newspapers, magazines and so on in the 1980s and early 1990s, is not published online, as far as I can see. This was a decade and less before the Internet, so a lot of this is only on paper.

From the last decade, where I used more time doing other stuff than writing, for instance work, to mention is my book from 2011, the IQ-blog and some other stuff I don’t think is interesting here.

I keep my personal interests quite private. To you, I can mention that I play golf, read a lot, like debating, and 30-40 years and even more kilos ago I was quite sporty, and competed in cross country skiing among other things (I did my military duty in His Majesty The King’s Guard (Drilltroppen)). I have been asked from a couple in the high IQ societies, if I know Magnus Carlsen. The answer is no, I don’t :)”

Haereid has interviewed In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal Advisory Board Member Dr. Evangelos Katsioulis, some select articles include topics on AI in What will happen when the ASI (Artificial superintelligence) evolves; Utopia or Dystopia? (Norwegian), on IQ-measures in 180 i IQ kan være det samme som 150, and on the Norwegian pension system (Norwegian). His book on the winner/loser-society model based on social psychology published in 2011 (Nasjonalbiblioteket), which does have a summary review here.

Erik lives in Larkollen, Norway. He was born in Oslo, Norway, in 1963. He speaks Danish, English, and Norwegian. He is Actuary, Author, Consultant, Entrepreneur, and Statistician. He is the owner of, chairman of, and consultant at Nordic Insurance Administration.

He was the Academic Director (1998-2000) of insurance at the BI Norwegian Business School (1998-2000) in Sandvika, Baerum, Manager (1997-1998) of business insurance, life insurance, and pensions and formerly Actuary (1996-1997) at Nordea in Oslo Area, Norway, a self-employed Actuary Consultant (1996-1997), an Insurance Broker (1995-1996) at Assurance Centeret, Actuary (1991-1995) at Alfa Livsforsikring, novice Actuary (1987-1990) at UNI Forsikring, and a Journalist at Norsk Pressedivisjon.

He earned an M.Sc. in Statistics and Actuarial Sciences from 1990-1991 and a Bachelor’s degree from 1984 to 1986/87 from the University of Oslo. He did some environmental volunteerism with Norges Naturvernforbund (Norwegian Society for the Conservation of Nature), where he was an activist, freelance journalist and arranged ‘Sykkeldagen i Oslo’ twice (1989 and 1990) as well as environmental issues lectures.

He has industry experience in accounting, insurance, and insurance as a broker. He writes in his IQ-blog the online newspaper Nettavisen. He has personal interests in history, philosophy, reading, social psychology, and writing.

He is a member of many high-IQ societies including 4G, Catholiq, Civiq, ELITE, GenerIQ, Glia, Grand, HELLIQ, HRIQ, Intruellect, ISI-S, ISPE, KSTHIQ, MENSA, MilenijaNOUS, OLYMPIQ, Real, sPIqr, STHIQ, Tetra, This, Ultima, VeNuS, and WGD.

Rick G. Rosner: “According to semi-reputable sources, Rick Rosner has the world’s second-highest IQ. He earned 12 years of college credit in less than a year and graduated with the equivalent of 8 majors. He has received 8 Writer’s Guild Award and Emmy nominations, and was named 2013 North American Genius of the Year by The World Genius Registry.

He has written for Remote Control, Crank Yankers, The Man Show, The Emmy Awards, The Grammy Awards, and Jimmy Kimmel Live!. He has also worked as a stripper, a bouncer, a roller-skating waiter, and a nude model. In a TV commercial, Domino’s Pizza named him the World’s Smartest Man. He was also named Best Bouncer in the Denver Area by Westwood Magazine.

He spent the disco era as an undercover high school student. 25 years as a bar bouncer, American fake ID-catcher, 25+ years as a stripper, and nude art model, and nearly 30 years as a writer for more than 2,500 hours of network television.

He lost on Jeopardy!, sued Who Wants to Be a Millionaire over a bad question, and lost the lawsuit. He spent 35+ years on a modified version of Big Bang Theory. Now, he mostly sits around tweeting in a towel. He lives in Los Angeles, California with his wife and daughter.

You can send an email or a direct message via Twitter, or find him on LinkedIn, or see him on YouTube.”

[2] Individual Publication Date: October 1, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/haereid-rosner-one; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Erik Haereid and Rick Rosner (Part One) [Online].October 2018; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/haereid-rosner-one.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, October 1). Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Erik Haereid and Rick Rosner (Part One). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/haereid-rosner-one.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Erik Haereid and Rick Rosner (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, October. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/haereid-rosner-one>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Erik Haereid and Rick Rosner (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/haereid-rosner-one.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Erik Haereid and Rick Rosner (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (October 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/haereid-rosner-one.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Erik Haereid and Rick Rosner (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/haereid-rosner-one>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Erik Haereid and Rick Rosner (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/haereid-rosner-one.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Erik Haereid and Rick Rosner (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):October. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/haereid-rosner-one>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Erik Haereid and Rick Rosner (Part One) [Internet]. (2018, October; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/haereid-rosner-one.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2018-09-22

An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Two)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: September 22, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,309

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Dr. Christopher DiCarlo is an Author, Educator, and Philosopher of Science and Ethics. He discusses: social philosophy; natural philosophy and science; and time at Harvard University.

Keywords: author, Christopher DiCarlo, educator, philosopher.

An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo: Author, Educator, Philosopher of Science and Ethics (Part Two)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: If you go to the major categories of philosophy and by social, political philosophy and so on. We started with ethics there. What social philosophy seems the most appealing to you?

DiCarlo: Obviously, there is an element of libertarianism that attracts a person. We want to give people as much liberty as possible. But libertarianism unchecked can run amok. We’ve seen that historically. You can’t let people do whatever they want.

I am also, a social democrat at heart because I do want to help people who through no fault of their own have had a tough go at it. So, it confuses people when I am on television or what not and they try to pigeonhole me, I say, “Oh, I am a libertarian socialist.” They’ll say, “That’s not possible.” I say, “Sure, it is possible.”

I think people should have the right to make as much money as they want. But they can’t do it at the sacrifice of others. They can’t harm people or other species in the process. They have to minimize the amount of harm that they do. then I am a socialist at heart because like when I was at Harvard, I used to hang out with this guy named Edward O. Wilson. I do not know if you know him?

Jacobsen: Oh, I know him. He was a Consilience guy, the unity of knowledge. That was in the 90s.

DiCarlo: Yes, he loved hanging out.

Jacobsen: That’s where the systemic relation part comes from too?

DiCarlo: Yes, exactly. So, he said, “Socialism, Chris, is a great idea but it is for the wrong species.”

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

DiCarlo: It works well for ants. It works well for bees, but for humans, at this point in our cultural evolution; we are not there yet. even Marx, if you read him carefully, he said this. We’re going to have revolutions with trials and errors. He couldn’t have known genetically what allele frequencies were.

He could not have known as much about Relational Systemics, as we do today. But let’s face it, I do not think humans generally want other humans to suffer if it can be helped. We do not. if you do enjoy the suffering of other humans, I think that’s very telling of an individual.

There will always be suffering. We know that. I got back from Guatemala. I went down there in February to teach critical thinking. I saw poverty at levels I’ve never seen before. I am a bit of a world traveller. But Guatemala struck a nerve with me. you want to help everyone.

You want to make their pain and suffering go away. You can’t because there are so many systems in place, of which you have no control or very little control. You want to wave your hand and give them lives of integrity and enjoyment, where they are comfortable.

Where they do not have to stay afraid, there is a lot of fear in Guatemala. Everyone owns a gun. It is the Wild West. It is a tough, tough country. They have come through 4 decades of Mayan genocide where 200,000 people were killed.

Largely because of, believe or it not, the United States and what the CIA were doing in the 50s with the coup and replacing their leaders with their own republic governments. Because why? The money in fruit: United Fruit, Del Monte, and Chiquita Bananas are all out of Guatemala.

It is messy. It is ugly. It is usually somebody making a buck somewhere, which is the result of a lot of human suffering. So, I mean this is a very roundabout way; I do apologize for being so long-winded. But I am no more long-winded than Krauss, because Krauss is a long-winded guy. He doesn’t like philosophy.

I got to keep him in his place, whenever he and I are together. He does respect me as a philosopher, which is good.

2. Jacobsen: If you look at the history and if you look at the terminology of science, as a professional cosmologist and physicist where he is at the highest level, science comes from natural philosophy.

As far as I know, things haven’t changed much. That’s why things like epistemological naturalism fit very well because, historically and currently, it still is. So, natural philosophy as a sub-domain of philosophy is a different set of principles and tools. So, he’s a philosopher, a natural philosopher.

DiCarlo: Tough to get him to admit that, but you’re right and I am with you.

Jacobsen: I think it is logically and historically a proof.

DiCarlo: It is. It is. It is a shame that Krauss didn’t take it up or even one undergraduate course in philosophy.

Jacobsen: Wasn’t it William Whewell who came up with that term science?

DiCarlo: Yes, that’s right. Yes, he was born one of the first philosophers of science. Michael Ruse, he was my supervisor. He’s a big fan of Whewell. A very big fan.

3. Jacobsen: Was this your time at Harvard?

DiCarlo: My time at Harvard was interesting. When I did my Ph.D. at Waterloo, Ruse was at Guelph. I was dealing with a supervisor in Waterloo who is a wonderful man, but not a driven supervisor. My advice to all my grad students is basically the same: find somebody with whom you can get the job done.

Find the biggest name with whom you can get the job done. Because if you can’t get the job done, it doesn’t matter; they are going to leave you floundering. 50% of all Ph.D. students drop out anyhow. I was having this hard time with this wonderful but misguided gentleman at Waterloo. I was meeting with Ruse in Guelph because that’s where I live.

He said, “Would you mind if I came on board as a co-advisor?” My current advisor was very receptive. He said, “Yes, work with Michael. Whatever Michael says is good here.” So, I was done my Ph.D. in less than 6 months with him. Under Michael’s guidance, it would have taken years with this one guy, but that’s very important.

Harvard, I was talking to a guy named Robert Nozick. Bob liked what I was doing but realized – we both realized – that I wasn’t doing philosophy anymore. As Ruse told me, “Find a niche in which nobody has ever worked and be the best at it in the world.”

Because he and David Hull kind helped me with philosophy and biology. So, I contacted Bob and he said, “You do not want to work in philosophy, what you’re talking about is cognitive evolution.” I said, “Yes, I know. I want to know if I can make determinations as to how people reason based on putting the pieces of the puzzle together from archaeology and anthropology, of hominid evolution.”

He said, “You want to work in the Stone Age lab.” So, I contacted the head of the lab, who said, “Come on down. We would love a philosopher in our faculty at the Stone Age lab.” So, that was my ticket to a postdoc for a couple of years down at Harvard.

It was wonderful to be able to ask any question that I wanted. No questions were too silly. Because we were talking about epistemic responsibility. By the way, Ed Wilson loved that term so much; he gave me this.

[Shows gift from Edward O. Wilson.]

He loved the fact that I gave him this term. Let’s face it, it is the hallmark of or should be of epistemology and philosophy in general. But it was wonderful to hang out at Harvard and everybody there knows, all the anthropologists, that we have to tell a story.

We do not have time machines. We can’t go back to see australopithecines morph. We do not know that for sure. But when you put all the pieces together from around the world, migration patterns, all of that, it appears obvious that certain lines went extinct but others led to others.

When you look at cranial development and brain size and tool use developments, we can tell more epistemically responsible stories than if we make things up willy-nilly. To me, one of the things I was most impressed with was the scientists I dealt with.

These are some of the best minds in the world. So, when I came in to talk about evolution, they loved it. Because probing around with primatologists, an archaeologist, people in genetics, behavioural genetics, and others.

I could meet everyone. So, I could meet with everybody and handle my questions there. I developed a fairly robust hypothesis as to why people have reasons, have developed reasoning skills the way we have. Like Aristotle developed the three modes of thought.

But even more so, I think I’ve got a pretty decent handle on why, throughout hominid evolution, mythologies and religions developed. Of course, there is no litmus test. There is no way anybody will ever say, “Look! DiCarlo’s right!” There is nothing clear to be able to say that, like the atomic weight of Caesium. We’re never going to get that.

But I think I put the pieces of the puzzle together in an epistemically responsible manner as I can, to be able to say, “We know what gave rise to what based on tool use and movement and nomadic practices, and the fauna and flora of a human area. We know that brain size was already completed. It was at its current size from 200,000 years ago.”

So, I talk about this perfect storm element of all different developments being necessary for language, which co-evolved with consciousness developments. So, I think I have a fairly robust hypothesis. I think I have enough information from other scientists that I’ve been able to glean.

I no longer consider myself a philosopher. So, I call myself an inter-disciplinarian at this point. But what does that mean? You hear about interdisciplinary studies at universities. They are a joke. They are largely hand picking people from English and other areas. There is no such thing as interdisciplinary studies in any robust way that I have seen.

But I think that I am doing it. Obviously, I am biased, but I do go to those other fields. I look at the information they provide me. When I ask them what I think are the hard questions, the challenging questions, when they answer them to the best of their ability, I am able to culminate this information.

I am able to look at all of these different historical systems that have worked together in various ways in order to produce the evolutionary species that we now find ourselves. I think I have a pretty decent handle on that aspect of human cultural and cognitive evolution.

So, yes, those two years at Harvard were probably the greatest intellectual time of my life. I was immersed among so many well-educated and proven scientists who could answer my questions very, very well. I was so impressed with the faculty of people and, of course, the other visiting scholars who were there from all around the world.

It was a good time. It was a very productive time for me and developing my ideas.

Appendix I: Footnotes

 

[1] Author; Educator; Philosopher; Fellow, Society of Ontario Freethinkers; Board Advisor, Freethought TV; Advisory Fellow, Center for Inquiry Canada.

[2] Individual Publication Date: September 22, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-two; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Two) [Online].September 2018; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-two.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, September 22). An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Two). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-two.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, September. 2018. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-two>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-two.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (September 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-two.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-two>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-two.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):September. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-two>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part Two) [Internet]. (2018, September; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-two.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-09-22

An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 1.A, Idea: The Kurds (Part One)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: Indigenous Middle East

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: September 22, 2018

Issue Publication Date: TBD

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,802

Abstract 

Houzan Mahmoud is a Co-Founder of Culture Project. She discusses: moments of political awakening; alignment of anti-war activism and feminism; immediate concerns for women’s rights relevant to the Iraqi Kurdish community; theme and title inspiration for Culture Project; popular articles of the site; threats to life as a secular feminist; unique concerns of women and girls in war; reaction to an anti-war speech in 2003; campaigning against Sharia law; the worldview and ethic that makes most sense to her; activism from an irreligious worldview; and becoming involved with Culture Project.

Keywords: Culture Project, Houzan Mahmoud, Kurdish, Kurds, politics, religion.

An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud: Co-Founder, Culture Project[1],[2],[3]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

*Originally published in Conatus News, Humanist Voices, and Culture Project.*

Houzan Mahmoud is the Co-Founder of Culture Project. She is a women’s rights activist, campaigner, and defender, and a feminist. In this wide-ranging and exclusive interview, Mahmoud discusses the Kurds, Iraq, women’s rights, and more.

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: You are a women’s rights activist, feminist, and an anti-war activist. You were born in Iraqi Kurdistan. What were the moments of political awakening for you?

Houzan Mahmoud: One of the things I’ll never forget is the break-out of war between Iraq and Iran. I was only six-years-old at the time. Iraq’s bloody dictator Saddam Hussein coming to political power in 1979 changed our lives in Kurdistan and Iraq forever. Being Kurdish poses all sorts of problems as it is, and living under the fascist regime of Saddam made things incredibly hard for my family. Prior to Saddam coming to power, my brothers took up arms during the late 70’s against Iraq’s regime, I was too little to remember the particulars. However, what I do know is that from 1973 to 1991 I grew up and lived under one of the most horrendous regimes in modern history.

I am forty-four years old now, but I still live with the horrors I faced during my childhood and adolescence years living in Iraq. From the day I was born, all the way to this moment, all I have witnessed is war, a never-ending war in Iraq. That’s why even my life in London is very much shaped and affected by the events that have and are still unfolding in Iraq and Kurdistan. I have many shared memories with my own people from the region, memories of struggle, loss of loved ones, horrors of genocide, and the pain of having to leave our homes again and again. I live like a nomad; even if I live in a home I always think to myself “I am not sure how long I will be living here — where next?”

2. Jacobsen: How did you come to align with the principles inherent in feminism and anti-war activism?

Mahmoud: I grew up in a war zone, a climate of long-lasting and bloody wars, a constant exodus and displacement. I am strongly opposed to war because it only brings devastation and abject poverty. It destroys homes, it destroys entire lives. However, I wouldn’t say that I am a pacifist largely due to the environment in which I was born. As Kurds, we are always subjected to the horror of war, occupation, and repetitive cultural, linguistic and physical genocides. For example, I support the armed struggle of Rojava against the Islamic State of Syria and Iraq (ISIS). In such cases, you can have one option: you either take up arms or be ruled by the monstrous forces of ISIS.

As for my feminist principles, there were various reasons that are personal, social and political. Of course, when you grew up in a socially-conservative society, a place in which every move you make somehow amounts to either shame or honour, if you adopt progressive views there is a considerable backlash, you become a ‘rebel’. The mentality that women are ‘inferior’ and men are superior is somehow imbued with almost every aspect of daily life — politics, art and literature. The language we speak carries a lot of words that reinforce women’s subordination. I must admit that from a very early age, I was aware of my own position in my society, I felt trapped, powerless and lonely. I felt stranded on a small planet that was destroyed by war. Making the smallest demand for women’s rights felt like a crime. Everything was about war, killing, survival and political-struggle against the enemy. There was little room for feminist ideas. Even when I joined a leftist political party, hoping that it provides the equality I sought after, I felt it was a man’s club. I left it and started reading feminist books intensively, as well as the history of feminism and the different schools of thoughts. I found within feminism a home, a place in which an ideology truly spoke for women. So, yes, going through a painful life journey full of loss and being a woman was and still is not easy. That’s why feminism is vital to me, to my thinking, activism and worldview.

3. Jacobsen: What are the more immediate concerns for women’s rights relevant to the Iraqi Kurdish community?

Mahmoud: There are many issues to fight against, such as so-called ‘honour killings’, female genital mutilation (FGM), forced and arranged marriages, and other forms of violence — like many other societies in the world. Kurdish women are fighting against all of these issues, and they’re fighting outside invaders too — such as ISIS. So the problems are not limited but are changing and are varied in addition to the political instability that, as we know, forays into the lives of women and their rights.

4. Jacobsen: You co-founded Culture Project, which is a platform for “Kurdish writers, feminists, artists, and activists.” What inspired it — its theme and title?

Mahmoud: I am one of the founders of Culture Project and have supported it, as well as having worked with various organisations and campaigns that highlight and assuage violence against women. One thing that was missing was a holistic approach to the important need of raising awareness about gender and feminism and challenging cultural productions that are patriarchal and male-dominated. So I discussed the idea with a couple of friends and supporters about creating such a platform, a platform that supported those people who have non-conformist views, as well as challenging regressive/conservative norms and values which are “traditional”. This platform is open for all regardless of sex and gender. We would love to bring forward new faces, young writers and others in order to create a debate and produce new knowledge that challenges the old schools of thought. As for the name, I thought that if we give it a name that gave our organisation the appearance it is female-only, it will just limit our scope of work. We decided to call it Culture Project in order to be inclusive of all people: activists, writers, philosophers, feminists, novelists, poets, etc.

5. Jacobsen: What have been some of its more popular articles — title and contents?

Mahmoud: We have various writers on both our Kurdish and English websites — websites proving to be very popular. Of course, on the Kurdish website, we have far more writers, poets, feminist writers, philosophical essays, art, and cultural reviews, etc., as well as short stories. On our English website, we have a very well-informed new generation of young Kurds who are active politically and are critical of the status-quo in Kurdistan. They challenge existing gender relations. You can find some very interesting poems, short stories, artistic-writing, and essays. One of the important pillars of our project is that we have gender and feminist awareness at its core. We promote and motivate our writers to be gender sensitive and champion feminist positions. When we were in Kurdistan in May, we hosted a debate on Feminism and Art, which was very well attended and created a very interesting debate.

6. Jacobsen: As a secular feminist, have there been threats to your life, or others involved with the project?

Mahmoud: There have been several threats directed at me when we launched our Anti-Sharia Campaign in Kurdistan and Iraq back in 2005. Even now when I write and criticise Islamism and advocate for feminist ideals I get hate mail, threats and expletive diatribes on Social media. Also, one of our writers who openly writes against Islamism received letters containing death threats. The fact is that those of us who are non-compromising and are open in our criticism of Islam and Islamism our lives are automatically in danger. We are not safe in either the Middle East nor in the UK.

7. Jacobsen: What are the unique concerns of women and girls in war in contrast to boys and men, in general?

Mahmoud: One of the major features of all wars is the use of rape as a weapon of war. Most of the times women in war situations end up becoming victims of rape, trafficking, sexual slavery and dealing with the consequences of the devastations that war brings to their societies. For example, women who become widows in socially conservative societies who have very little welfare are living in dire conditions. Conversely, men and boys, who are fighting, face death, injuries, and other war traumas. However, in some cases, men who are caught as prisoners of war are sexually assaulted as an act of humiliation in order to break down their ‘manhood’. The case of the Yezidi genocide committed by ISIS symbolizes this horror. Women were taken as spoils of war; they could be raped, sold and turned into slaves. Men who did not convert were killed.

8. Jacobsen: Looking into the past a bit, you were one of the speakers for the March 2003 London, United Kingdom anti-war rally. What was the content of, and the reaction to, the speech?

Mahmoud: I used to take part in anti-war demonstrations against US-lead wars in Afghanistan. Later on, when the US and its allies decided to attack Iraq in 2003, I became more involved and active in the anti-war efforts in UK and elsewhere. I asserted my opposition to the war on Iraq, despite the fact of being Kurdish and someone who has suffered immensely under Saddam’s regime. I still didn’t think that any foreign intervention was going to improve our lives. I also emphasised that this war will only bring more terrorism because it will strengthen political Islam, i.e. Islamism. Some people on the political Left liked my opposition to the war but disliked my opposition to political Islam, as they view them as an “anti-imperialist” resistance. To me, however, this is absurd — how can a terrorist force that kills, beheads, and oppresses women have anything to do with resisting imperialism?

There is no doubt that we all wanted an end to Saddam’s totalitarian regime, but I was opposed to the foreign invasion. In this region, we don’t have a good experience with foreign interventions and colonialism throughout history. Imperialist powers invade, destroy and support or install puppet regimes to serve their interest only. Look at Iraq and Afghanistan — since the invasion, we are faced with much more terrorism, instability, poverty, displacement and mass migration of people. There are a humanitarian disaster and an endless tragedy of war and bloodshed.

9. Jacobsen: As well, you have been on major news media such as The Guardian, The Independent, BBC, CNN, NBC, and Sky News. You have campaigned strongly against Sharia law in addition to the oppression of women in Iraq and Kurdistan. Does this campaigning against Sharia law extend into the international domain?

Mahmoud: Yes, because political Islamist groups are now everywhere seeking to impose Islamist ideals on people and restricting freedom of speech and expression. Even in UK we have problem with religious schooling, Mosques that advocate for Jihad, and hate speech. We have Sharia councils that violate women’s rights. I am part of the One Law for All coalition that seeks to expose these violations and influence government policy makers. The struggle for women’s rights, secularism and universal values is an international struggle. I always felt I was part of this worldwide struggle even if we are confined to local issues, but we fight with a universal vision for rights, gender equality, secularism and an egalitarian alternative to patriarchal capitalist system.

10. Jacobsen: What religious/irreligious worldview and ethic make the most sense with respect to the proper interpretation of the world to you?

Mahmoud: I am not interested in any religions that seek to convince me of another world. I live here in the now, that is what it matters to me. I take a stand against injustice, class division and the gender apartheid that is currently taking place. We need to replace the horrendous climate that has been created by capitalism and corporate profit-making by creating a heaven on this earth, one in which we are all treated equally, fairly and with justice for all. I have no time for tales of heaven and hell in another world. There is no evidence of such realms. However, I have experienced very similar places here on this earth. After having lived in war zones and having had fought for survival, being in London is to me like heaven. I felt human again. I can enjoy the freedoms I am entitled to as a woman. I owe it to the struggle of generations of powerful feminist movements in this country.

11. Jacobsen: Does this comprehensive activism — women’s rights, Kurdish culture, feminism, anti-war, and, I assume, others — come from the religious/irreligious worldview at all?

Mahmoud: To me, they come from an irreligious worldview. This is because religions limit our imaginations and they limited our freedom of thought. Religion restricts human creativity, it restricts our freedom of ideas. It subjects people to outmoded dictates — be they from the Bible, the Quran, or any other holy book. The notion of sin, guilt, shame and honour create a gender divide and it imposes a heteronormative narrative that is shamefully discriminative. As a woman, I felt I was half human when I was religious. I felt everything I do was loaded with guilt, and that I am somehow inferior to men. When I started to question and dislike all the restrictions I realized that religion is not for me and that it is a man-made and merely in the service of men. The more I read into world-religion, the more I realized it is extremely patriarchal and oppressive towards women.

12. Jacobsen: How can people become involved with the Culture Project, or in the advocacy and promotion of Kurdish culture, even donate to initiatives relevant to their advocacy and promotion?

Mahmoud: Well, we really need help and support from talented people, people who have editing skills, who can review and analyze art work, who can write reports, proposals, and we need people who have design skills. Any support through volunteering would be deeply cherished.

13. Jacobsen: Thank you for your time, Houzan.

Mahmoud: You most welcome, it is my pleasure.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Co-Founder, Culture Project.

[2] Individual Publication Date: September 22, 2018: www.in-sightjournal.com/Mahmoud.

[3] Image Credit: Houzan Mahmoud.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud [Online].September 2018; 1(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/Mahmoud.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, September 22). An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud. Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/Mahmoud.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud.  Indigenous Middle East. 1.A, September. 2018. <www.in-sightjournal.com/Mahmoud>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud.” Indigenous Middle East. 1.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/Mahmoud.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud.” Indigenous Middle East. 1.A (September 2018). www.in-sightjournal.com/Mahmoud.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud‘, Indigenous Middle East, vol. 1.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/Mahmoud>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud‘, Indigenous Middle East, vol. 1.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/Mahmoud.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud.” Indigenous Middle East 1.A (2018):September. 2018. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/Mahmoud>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud [Internet]. (2018, September; 1(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/Mahmoud.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Indigenous Middle East 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Indigenous Middle East with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-09-22

An Interview with Hasan Zuberi, M.B.A. (Part One)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: September 22, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,402

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Hasan Zuberi, M.B.A. is the Chairman for Mensa Pakistan. He discusses: personal family background; family background feeding into early life; giftedness becoming a factor in life; nurturance of giftedness; reasons for community investment in the gifted; the acceptance and nurturance of the gifted and talented through the formal mechanisms of the countries in the Middle East-North Africa region; the largest flowering of intellectual progress in the Islamic tradition; M.B.A. and early education for the gifted; benefits of multilingualism; PR company; detriment of high-IQ; membership of Mensa Pakistan; Mensa Pakistan demographics; other Mensa groups closely working with Mensa Pakistan; provisions for Mensa Pakistan members; average standard deviation IQ of Mensa Pakistan members; and the relationship between Mensa at 2-sigma and other high-IQ groups at 3-sigma and 4-sigma.

Keywords: Hasan Zuberi, Islam, Mensa Pakistan, Muslim, Pakistan.

An Interview with Hasan Zuberi, M.B.A.: Chairman, Mensa Pakistan (Part One)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: In terms of geography, culture, language, and religion/irreligion, what is personal family background?

Hasan Anwer Zuberi: My family name Zuberi (or Zubairi) hails from present-day Saudi city of Makkah, and is a sub-tribe started from Zubair bin Al-Awam, a companion and cousin of Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) who is buried in a city called Az-Zubair, near Basra present-day Iraq. The spread of Islam leads our clan to move towards the East and a substantial portion settled in the subcontinent (present-day India), and after the partition of British-India, mostly migrated to Karachi, Pakistan.

Both my parents, grandparents and great-grandparents from both sides were Zuberis, due to internal marriages. Our family excels in Education and has many institutions to its name in the Indian subcontinent, including Muslim Aligarh University, Karachi School of Arts, Mardan Women Degree College, to name a few.

Our primary language is Urdu. However, I am married to an Indonesian and my kids speak: Urdu, Bahasa Indonesian, and English.

2. Jacobsen: How did these multiple facets of family background feed into early life for you?

Zuberi: Since our family is mostly in education, I started at an early age and by 15 I was through with my 10th grade, and by 22 was done with my M.B.A. in Marketing. In between, I joined Alliance Francaise to learn French, that started as a hobby and was done with DELF 1er Degre and this is where I was introduced to Mensa. I tried the test, qualified in the 99th percentile, and later became the youngest Chairman at the age of 21.

3. Jacobsen: When did giftedness become a fact for you, explicitly? Of course, you lived and live with it. The key, when was the high general intelligence formally measured, acknowledged, and integrated into personal identity and loved ones’ perception of you?

Zuberi: It was at the time of my French studies that my teachers, mostly French, showed their surprise in my capability of picking the language, especially in an English language dominant country, and of my accent. They were the ones who identified the potential and helped me participate more. These were very troubled days in Karachi, with the civil-ethnic war going on and everyday killings and business shutdown strikes were common. The language center, which served as a refuge from all that was happening around me, helped me open and I organized many events including the only and the biggest mime-show in Karachi, Volleyball, Table Tennis, and Pétanque tournaments, reading and poetry sessions, and so on.

I came across a Mensa poster there and just out of curiosity sat for the test, which resulted in this long association.

4. Jacobsen: Was your giftedness nurtured in early life into adolescence?

Zuberi: I will say, “Yes,” it did get nurtured. Learning the fact that I am among the population considered to be of the highly intelligent. It helped in my daily calculations and decision-making. Although I was not a high achiever until my college, the fact of being a Mensa qualifier, and member, helped me secure 3.5+ CGPA and scholarship in my M.B.A. degree. This also resulted in starting my own business, a PR company, at the age of 27.

5. Jacobsen: Why should governments and communities invest in the gifted, identification and education? How can families and friends help prevent gifted kids from a) acting arrogant and b) becoming social car crashes (with a) and b) being related, of course)?

Zuberi: As all five fingers are not the same, all children have their specific requirements and need to focus on it. Governments, communities, family and friends all have a pivotal role in shaping and carving a gifted personality. High IQ is not necessarily always positive; it has its negative side.

I have myself witnessed many cases in Mensa Pakistan, and this is one of our primary foci and objectives to help shape the gifted mind in a gifted person. In families, particularly in our society, high IQ often results in anti-social disorder among the gifted children, as they find it hard to cope with the average intellect, and it makes them isolate within their respective circles, be it in the family, among friends, or even at schools.

We at Mensa Pakistan focus at school, establish our school-chapters (club), and from time to time engage teachers, staff, and parents along with the gifted children to make them understand that high IQ is a gift, and should be treated like one. On the one hand, we tell the teachers and parents on how to best utilize the hidden talents of the high IQ individual, and on the other, we make sure the students should not take this natural talent as an achievement, act arrogant, and should realize that it also has its negative sides if not tamed in the right direction, with the help and guidance from the loved ones around them.

6. Jacobsen: How well-established and funded is the acceptance and nurturance of the gifted and talented through the formal mechanisms of the countries in the Middle East-North Africa region? 

Zuberi: If we talk about MENA region, the concept of gifted/high IQ is still in its infancy stage, number of reasons involved, top being the poverty, low literacy rate, and the governance systems. For instance, even in the rich Gulf states, there is no visible effort to identify, polish, or to utilize the potential and skills of high IQ/gifted children. But for a change, in countries like Egypt, Turkey, Jordan and Pakistan, I came to know about certain initiatives that were to foster the human intelligence on the positive side.

7. Jacobsen: Islam maintains a long intellectual legacy unknown to much of the rest of the world, especially in relation to the geniuses in the Arab world. Who comes to mind for you? What periods of time represent the largest flowering of intellectual progress in this tradition?

Zuberi: We can start with Al-Khwarizmi, the father of “Al Jabr” (or Algebra), then we had Abu Nasar Al Farabi (or Alpharabius), Abu Ali Sena (or Avicenna), Abu Rayhan Al Biruni, and the father of modern surgery Al-Zahrawi (or Abulcasis) and all are from the Islamic golden age that was around 650-750 AD.

There was also much progress made in the modern times until the WWI, but that was divided between the rival Caliphates (Khilafah or Kingdoms) and later Nationalism even destroyed the Arabs, which still exists to date and can be seen in the present-day Arab world.

8. Jacobsen: How have the early graduation and M.B.A. helped with personal and professional life? When would education acceleration be inappropriate for a highly gifted child?

Zuberi: Early graduation didn’t help me much compared to starting work at an early age. I started my work life right after my 12th grade. This helped me a lot when I started my M.B.A. and even resulted in attaining high GPA and scholarship. The education acceleration should come when the gifted child is made aware of his potential and at the tender age. Too much pressure may also result in a negative result at an early age.

9. Jacobsen: What are the benefits of multilingualism, being a polyglot? What downsides come from it?

Zuberi: Multilingualism is always helpful. It helps kids open more to respect others, be it culture, language, or cuisine. To me, it helped in understanding others, guiding others (literally also I served as a tour guide), and interact with humans of another race, colour, and ethnicity.

10. Jacobsen: What was the PR company? How did this develop and influence professional life? Why focus on a PR company?

Zuberi: Public Relation Consultancy, the best part of PR is that it comes naturally. It is a normal interaction with people around us. The relationship with the public, where the public is everyone. Starting from the time we wake up and the first person that we see, it can be wife, kids, siblings, mother, father, to the first person we meet outside our house. To the office, on the way, until we return to our bed, how good are we with every other human being. So, for me, it became a passion more than a profession. That is one core reason, I never looked back.

In the professional base, we advise brands on how to interact with their public. Customers, partners, management, staff, employees. Each and every one with whom the brand interacts considering brand itself as an individual. To start a 2-way communication, listen to others and share your story, your good side, with them.

11. Jacobsen: How can a high-IQ be a detriment in life?

Zuberi: Like every good thing, there are good and bad sides to it. If not controlled, or tamed, high IQ can be as explosive and destructive as any bomb and can result in negativity. A high IQ person with a negative attitude can cause serious harm.

Gifted people can easily turn into an anti-social person, due to acceptability and difficulty in making others understand their thoughts. and this, at times, diverts them towards ill for the society and people in general.

12. Jacobsen: Let us talk about the distinct functions and facets of Mensa Pakistan: how many members? 

Zuberi: Considering the fact that Pakistan is the 6th most populous country in the world, with an estimated population of 210 million (*approx –  2018), Mensa Pakistan is still a very small chapter.

In my tenure since 1999 as GS, and then in 2000 onward as the Chairman, we had almost 10,000 qualifiers but majority of them were high school students and a Mensa qualification was one of the point-scoring sheets for them and majority, nearly 60% went abroad for high studies and hardly 5-7% returned until date.

At this date, we stand at only 300+ members in good standing but are in contact with almost 1200, who are either too busy or too old to be worth the membership.

13. Jacobsen: What demographics remain a part of Mensa Pakistan? 

Zuberi: Demographically, we are present in 3 big cities, namely Karachi, Lahore, and Islamabad, with active chapters, though have conducted tests in almost 18 cities across Pakistan. Gender-wise it’s a good M:F = 48:52 % mix and most are aged between (16 – 35) with few exceptions including myself.

14. Jacobsen: What other Mensa groups frequently associated with Mensa Pakistan?

Zuberi: We work very closely with British, Canadian, and US Mensa chapters, mostly for membership transfers. In addition, I have played my part in the development of Mensa chapters in Indonesia, and the UAE, and maintain good relations with them.

In Pakistan, we have hosted visiting Mensan from 6 countries to date; namely from Germany, Finland, India, Indonesia, Norway, and the Philippines.

15. Jacobsen: What does Mensa Pakistan provide for its members?

Zuberi: Mensa Pakistan provides its members mainly with the platform to utilize their high IQ skills in a positive manner. In addition, we provide our members with hands-on work opportunity in management, leadership, finance, and marketing. Our senior members serve as mentors for youngsters for guidance, career advises, scholarship opps, and internships.

16. Jacobsen: What is the average standard deviation IQ score of the members?

Zuberi: The minimum accepted score on the Harcourt’s FRT Tests is 135 in the 98th %ile and the average score is in the 99th percentile among qualifiers. Whereas among general populations, we have had an average of 75%ile in the Urban areas; whereas, in the rural areas, it was 65%.

17. Jacobsen: What is the relationship between Mensa at 2-sigma and other high-IQ groups at 3-sigma and 4-sigma?

Zuberi: I am not much familiar with other IQ groups as none are present in Pakistan.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Chairman, Mensa Pakistan.

[2] Individual Publication Date: September 22, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/zuberi-one; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Hasan Zuberi, M.B.A. [Online].September 2018; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/zuberi-one.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, September 22). An Interview with Hasan Zuberi, M.B.A.. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/zuberi-one.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Hasan Zuberi, M.B.A.. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, September. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/zuberi-one>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Hasan Zuberi, M.B.A..” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/zuberi-one.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Hasan Zuberi, M.B.A..” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (September 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/zuberi-one.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Hasan Zuberi, M.B.A.‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/zuberi-one>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Hasan Zuberi, M.B.A.’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/zuberi-one.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Hasan Zuberi, M.B.A..” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):September. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/zuberi-one>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Hasan Zuberi, M.B.A. [Internet]. (2018, September; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/zuberi-one.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-09-22

An Interview with Ani Zonneveld

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: September 22, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,983

ISSN 2369-6885

Freedom of Expression Thought

Abstract 

Ani Zonneveld is the President and Founder of Muslims for Progressive Values. She discusses: family background; the inculcation of an environment in the US; founding Muslims for Progressive Values; the bigger educational and social initiatives of the organization ongoing at the moment; building bridges; and freedom of expression, freedom of and from religion or belief, women’s rights, and LGBTQIA rights.

Keywords: Ani Zonneveld, Islam, Muslim, Muslims for Progressive Values.

An Interview with Ani Zonneveld: President and Founder, Muslims for Progressive Values[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: With regards to family background, what was the political or religious background if any?

Ani Zonneveld: I was born in Malaysia and raised a Muslim, but I lived all over the world growing up because my father was a diplomat. So, I lived in Germany, Egypt, and India for a total of 15 plus years.

However, the Islam we were raised on was inherently traditional but pragmatic and progressive in the scheme of things – definitely different from the Islam of today.

2. Jacobsen: You have a family. What is the environment in the US that you wish to inculcate there with regards to political and religious use within reason?

Zonneveld: My husband is a non-Muslim. My daughter identifies as Muslim. She is a young adult of her own mind. So, I’ve done my part. The rest is up to her and how she wants to live her life. I’m a free thinker. I don’t believe in curtailing or dictating how anyone should think.

I believe in thinking, in the free spirit, the creative soul, and the free form of expression. So, that’s how I am. That’s what I expect of people. I don’t accept intolerance of any form – whether you’re religious or an atheist; I’m not tolerant of the intolerance of the other.

As for the political climate in America, we have become a theocracy and the clever thing is, they’ve used the boogeyman Islam to fan fear to get the most radical Christian into office, who by the way, shares the same misogynistic and homophobic worldview as the Muslims the use! These radical Christians then legislate their beliefs at the State and Federal level. I have been calling them out for years, as I see no difference between them and the Sharia laws in the Muslim world.

3. Jacobsen: How did you found Muslims for Progressive Values?

Zonneveld: Now, that started out as a form of protest, basically. I’ve been a songwriter/ producer for 25 years or more in the United States, but I was a closeted Muslim. Then 9/11 happened. I decided, at that point, that I needed to come out, but I also, knew that if I was to come out then I would be facing a lot of questions about various issues. I, therefore, needed to be educated and self-critical about Islam.

So, in the process of relearning for myself, I discovered that the teachings of the Quran were progressive and liberating, even more so than my upbringing. So, at that point, I decided, “There’s no way I’m going to go back to the traditional mosque”, because once you are unshackled, and your mind is totally free, why go back to the prison?

Since I did songwriting and production for a living, I decided to do an Islamic pop CD highlighting the new knowledge about Islam for me: the progressive values, the contribution of women in Islam, etc. That was my way of contributing to society, but I quickly discovered that none of the Muslim websites and retail stores would sell the CD because I was a female singer.

According to them, the female voice needs to be censored. It’s awrath; it’s sexual. The second reason was because I used musical instrumentation and apparently that was also forbidden since during Prophet Muhammad’s time, he only had the percussion. (That was in 2004, since then male Muslim singers have used all modern instrumentation in religious songs). I’m like, “This is the most ridiculous ‘theology’ I’ve ever heard.” I was born and raised Muslim and I have never heard of this.

Male musicians, however, were allowed to use instruments. This is a minor example of how they’re such hypocrites. So, that was another reason why I left the mosque and the traditional Muslim community.

In response, I started my own progressive Muslim community in Los Angeles. Along with other progressive Muslim communities in the United States, we got together in 2007, where I was voted by the founding members as President, to register Muslims for Progressive Values (MPV) as a non-profit and to run it. Now, in 2018, eleven years later, it has become an international human rights organization.

4. Jacobsen: What would you consider some of the bigger educational and social initiatives of the organization ongoing at the moment?

Zonneveld: For example, we have this initiative called #NoToHomophobia. We started this after The Pulse shooting, although we have always been at the forefront of this issue, advocating for LGBT rights in The United States through legislations and by developing educational tools to change the Muslim mindset on homosexuality. The Pulse shooting was evidence we needed to prove the effects of hateful religious narratives. That this man, Martin, had internalized so much of the hateful theology that was spewed in the mosque and within the community that he responded violently.

So, we have been publicly challenging religious leaders in American Muslim educational institutions to do away with homophobic teachings. It’s unacceptable because there’s no punishment for being a homosexual in the Quran nor did Prophet Muhammad ever punish anyone for being a homosexual.

The other that we are very proud of is our “Imams For She” initiative. It’s inspired by U.N. Women’s ‘He For She’ initiative. MPV partners worked with male Imams, the scholars of Islam, who are affirming and advocating for women’s and girls’ rights.

So, our program is in Tunisia and in Burundi where we go to the most remote villages. We work to educate girls, women, and young men on women’s and girls’ rights.

Us working with these enlightening Imams and scholars of Islam is key to changing people’s mindsets on the ground.

5. Jacobsen: That raises two questions for me; the first is shorter, the second is longer. So, I’ll go to the shorter one first.

In terms of building bridges with the ex-Muslim community, with the various Muslim communities, how can those bridges be built at least at a fundamental level in terms of moving the progressive conversation forward in terms of implementation of rights and values in culture?

Zonneveld: We build the bridge by using an interpretation of the Quran that undermines bigotry, and we invite people to use this bridge. But some folks, just want to blow the bridge up every chance they get, that includes ex-Muslims, conservative, radical Muslims, non-Muslims who hate all Muslims, and by Muslim governments who see us as a threat because we promote critical, progressive, and creative thinking.

For us the principle is simple. An individual’s rights need to be upheld regardless of cultural or religious beliefs.

If at the end of the day love trumps hate, we believe – I believe – that an inclusive, loving, and compassionate way is the only way forward. I can’t engage in hate. I find it destructive and counterproductive. Our language, work comes from a positive framing. Yes, hate is louder, and garners more followers, but that is just not how we operate.

6. Jacobsen: To the second question, the four points that Muslims for Progressive Values, which is as you noted based in the United States, are freedom of expression, freedom of and from religion or belief, women’s rights, and LGBTQIA rights.

If, and as, a progressive Muslim advocating for these through Muslims for Progressive Values talking to Los Angeles, Californian, American, or ordinary Muslims about these topics that have inculcated in them more traditionalist and conservative views and values, what are common responses from them when you’re advocating for these four things? How do you respond?

Zonneveld: When we first started, the traditional Muslims use to scorn at us for identifying ourselves as “progressive”. Now, they are all tripping over each other identifying themselves as one! Mind you, many of them are just pretenders claiming to support women and LGBTQI rights. I’ve heard imams and well-known movement leaders in the U.S. make these claims in front of an interfaith audience. But it’s just lip service. They do nothing to substantiate these claims.

So, the good thing about the political climate we are in the U.S. is that conservative Muslims have to pretend to be nice to us progressives.

Lately, the short documentary about my work “al-imam” has been making the film festival rounds, is distributed by National Geographic, and the latest news is that it won a competition and will now be screened at the American Pavilion at the Cannes Film Festival in 2019.

But outside the conservative stream, here are some numbers. The latest Pew Research concluded that on the issues of homosexuality, 52% of US Muslims say homosexuality should be accepted by society — compared to Evangelical Protestants at 34%.

We’ve always known that American Muslims have always been progressive compared to the religious authorities. The problem is that the media focuses on the conservative religious authorities as representative of American Muslims when the majority of Americans Muslims don’t even subscribe to those ideologies, and according to the latest Pew Research, 72% find spiritual inspiration outside the mosque anyways!

We started with the intent of being an American organization because those talking heads, the ‘mullahs,’ don’t represent us. Now we are in 8 cities in the U.S. with many communities in many countries borrowing our values and practices. And on October 1, 2017, we launched a global umbrella organization Alliance of Inclusive Muslims, in Tunisia, made up of members spanning five continents.

7. Jacobsen:  Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Ani.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Founder and President, Muslims for Progressive Values.

[2] Individual Publication Date: September 22, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/zonneveld; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Ani Zonneveld [Online].September 2018; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/zonneveld.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, September 22). An Interview with Ani Zonneveld. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/zonneveld.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Ani Zonneveld. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, September. 2018. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/zonneveld>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Ani Zonneveld.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/zonneveld.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Ani Zonneveld.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (September 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/zonneveld.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Ani Zonneveld‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/zonneveld>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Ani Zonneveld‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/zonneveld.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Ani Zonneveld.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):September. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/zonneveld>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Ani Zonneveld [Internet]. (2018, September; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/zonneveld.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-09-15

An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part One)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: September 15, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,890

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Dr. Christopher DiCarlo is an Author, Educator, and Philosopher of Science and Ethics. He discusses: family background; pivotal moments in early life; Dawkins and Krauss analogy; critical thinking’s influence on parenting; and Bentham, Mill, and the Harm Principle.

Keywords: author, Christopher DiCarlo, educator, philosopher.

An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo: Author, Educator, Philosopher of Science and Ethics (Part One)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: In terms of geography, culture, and language, where does your family background reside?

Dr. Christopher DiCarlo: My father, his parents were Italian immigrants. They came here. He was born in Canada. My mother was Alsatian.

So, it is a district in France and Germany, more Germany than France. My great-great grandfather got tired of the fighting between France and Germany. He changed his surname to Fox. I am a fifth generation Franco-Germanic on my mother’s side. That is my ancestry in Canada.

2. Jacobsen: Can you recall some pivotal moments and early influences in life? That is, the influence on the perspective of the world. The influence on directions taken in life.

DiCarlo: I remember talking to my mother once. I was born and baptized and raised a Catholic. I was an altar boy for five years. I thought, “Mom, what is heaven?” She said, “In heaven, you get everything that you want.”

I said, “You do?” She said, “Yea!” I was four. I said, “I don’t want to die until I’m 80. What will an 80-year-old man want with toys?” She said, “It doesn’t matter. If you want it, you will have them there.”

Later, in early high school, I said, “What do you think will happen to my friend, Danny Epstein, when he dies?” She said, “He will go to Hell.” I said, “He’s not Catholic. He is Jewish. He’s half-right.” She said, “That’s not enough.”

[Laughing]

Early, I realized that things were not quite right in the ‘supernatural’ realm. I hear about atrocities in the world, with crime, or someone having a seizure. Anything like that. I never had an individual tell me, “That person is behaving that way because their brain is somewhat different. It is operating somewhat differently. Under certain conditions, it will behave in that particular way.”

No one would ever explain that to me. It was “when that bad man did that, he chose to do that. He was violating the law and God and will go to Hell.” When Krauss says, “it’s child abuse,” in a way, that indoctrination is child abuse. You are not giving your child the more objective picture of human behaviour.

Therefore, you are withholding information from the child. Whether that or not, when I look back in life, I wish one single mentor/person said, “Hey, this is cool. This is all right. Bad things will happen, but here’s why bad things will happen and here is what you can do to help others that suffer. Here are ways to avoid that suffering for you.”

When I look back on my life, I wish I had a mentor. It was not until late high school when a neighbor was taking philosophy courses. He would have these conversations with me. It would influence me. I considered other things people said about the world that were different than my parents.

3. Jacobsen: When I reflect on your statements, from Professor Lawrence Krauss, on that child abuse, he takes that from Dr. Richard Dawkins, in writing and conversations. There is a deep, simple argument.

Dawkins presents a context. I paraphrase the analogy. You have three children: A, B, and C. You see a slide from a projector with children A, B, and C. A is a “Muslim Child.” B is a “Christian child.” C is a “Hindu child.”

When, in fact, you have a child of Muslims parents (A), child of Christian parents (B), and a child of Hindu parents (C). The point becomes clear with political philosophies applied to A, B, and C. Same context and second slide of the hypothetical projector. A is a Conservative child. B is a Liberal child. C is a Green Party child.

DiCarlo: [Laughing].

Jacobsen: In a way, when Dawkins has presented this idea to people, he argues by analogy in the sense of consciousness-raising with respect to 60s and 70s feminism to look at the way language is used in describing people, things, and relationships. There is a valid argument.

DiCarlo: For sure, when we decided to have kids, the greatest gift to give a child is critical thinking skills. The ability to think about all things carefully and to use your sense of logic and reason. The ability to discern through different types of information. I never stopped kids from wanting to pursue any religious or supernatural belief system.

Should one of them find joy or fellowship amongst others within a faith, we could talk about it. If it was more on the spectrum of cults including the Church of Scientology, I would press much harder in contrast to Buddhism.

It is a neat thing. I dabbled in it. I would not have much of an issue with it. If my son came home and said, “I’m a Scientologist,” we would probably have a serious discussion about this.”

4. Jacobsen: Regarding your own family history and personal life including having children, a related question: how does critical thinking influence parenting?

DiCarlo: It should be one of the cornerstones of parenting. You want to be compassionate, loving, and helpful. I want to guide in all those areas. If you do not have critical thinking to inform you in those areas, you are being misguided.

I am sure Jenny McCarthy loved her children. However, the irreparable damage done from her memes to others taking the false information is big. It is epistemically irresponsible.

Epistemic responsibility is the capacity to look at information and determine its reliability, sufficiency, consistency, and so on. These hallmarks of criteria that underlie the premise that support our conclusions.

When people do not do that, it can lead to damaging actions. They may have the best intentions for their children. The fact of the matter is “best intentions” are not enough. Critical thinking is what will allow parents with the best intentions to make more reliable decisions.

Now, with my critical thinking consulting business is a large outreach program, we are developing things. Instead of proselytizing about God or something, we teach educators critical thinking, which allows students to make their minds up.

It is how and not what to think. I do not have problems with different beliefs than mine. Unless, they create harm. That is a subjective, philosophically difficult, concept. One person’s benefit is another person’s harm.

However, telling people at ages things they cannot fathom or grasp the depths thereof, Jenny McCarthy’s pseudoscientific claim are harmful. In my book, I talk about the intersecting point.

Someone’s tolerance dims as another person’s harm increase in inverse proportion. Where they intersect, that is when someone is justified to say, “Time out here. Everything was fine. I have a high tolerance for your beliefs.”

You claim a God. To me, it is imaginary. It does not affect me. You pay your taxes. Your supernatural beliefs do not affect me. However, if I find out the supernatural beliefs harm, those lines intersect.

I do not have to tolerate that anymore, especially on behalf of those suffering under the belief system. I am tolerant of other belief systems different from mine. I can get along with any person of any faith, or non-faith. Let us face it, there are atheists out there that are assholes.

They can do horrible things for whatever reasons. They might not base it on faith. However, they might use different reasons. We are talking about the beliefs generating actions harmful to yourself, others, or another species.

5. Jacobsen: Jeremy Bentham founded Utilitarianism. John Stuart Mill developed it. He had the higher/lower pleasures, and The Harm Principle. Does this emphasis on the harm reflect aspects of Utilitarianism for you?

DiCarlo: For sure, the two most important ethical precepts for me: The Harm Principle and the Golden Rule. If you take them together, it is hard to get around it. If you take them separately, they do not always work well.

Paul Bernardo, serial killer, could say, “I am abiding by the Golden Rule. I want someone to stalk, drug, and murder me. I see nothing wrong with that!” However, if you put The Harm Principle in there, then you say, “You can’t get away with that loose-fitting approach.”

I am both a Consequentialist and a Deontologist. I am a mixed bag. I developed something called Relational Systemics, which goes further than Mill’s. It is looking at individuals as their systemic selves. Now, you are communicating through a means of a system of networking. It involves various systems, which need to function. You are living on the other side of the country

However, we need to interact with other systems. We are dependent on transportation, communication, legal, health, and so on. When I look at an individual, I see their systemic self.

There are natural and cultural systems. In terms of looking at human behaviour and trying to treat individuals fairly, if we are to value fairness as an aspect of ethical treatment, it behooves us to figure out an individual’s systemic self.

I use the natural and social sciences to the betterment of ethical systems. Many ethical philosophers sit at the desk. They think in abstruse and abstract terms. We need to marry ethics with science.

Some see that as the naturalistic fallacy. No, it is not. Hume said it is not the naturalistic fallacy if you fill in the is/ought with a lot of premises. That is what I am doing with these systems. Science must inform ethics.

If it does not, and if we exist in a vacuum, and if people get that we should not act ways and if they have their heads up an orifice, it is because they have not realized that for people to act according to specific rules, then they must be able to.

As Immanuel Kant said, “..is does not imply ought, but is implies can.” If somebody ought to do something, that means “can they do that?” If I ought not to murder, and if I have a grapefruit-sized tumor unbeknownst to me pressing against my amygdaloid system, limbic system, and if I murder that day, you say, “You ought not to murder.”

You have not determined the “is”. You have determined the systemic facts about me. I realize at the individual level. I do not want to murder. I do not want others to murder. The fact of the matter is life is not that simple.

We need to look at that as a complexity. We are an agglomeration of systems in this world whether we like it or not. Let us figure out the best way to think about systems interacting with themselves. So, when people cannot meet the rules within an ethical system of conduct or the law, what do we do with the rule breakers?

Dostoyevsky, right? Enter a societies’ prisons and that is how you judge them. How did they treat the rule breakers of that society? To be just and to be fair, we need to look at all the systems or at least the important nodes of those various systems to be fair to that person.

And to be fair to the next person. We need to set a precedent for that. So, the law I find, I am teaching a course in philosophy and punishment, and I am trying to get my students to think in terms of, what should we do with pedophiles? “Oh, pedophiles are horrible, they do horrible things to children.”

Yes, nobody is denying the consequences of their actions. Nobody denies that should not happen. Do you think they just sit around and say, “Jeez, I think I should have sex with kids? I’ve tried everything else, let us move on to kids.” It is not just a graduating perversion that a person has, of copulating with different persons and things and inanimate objects and then ending up with kids.

No, pedophiles are a product of their systemic selves. What are we going to do with them? If they cannot abide by the rules of society that we have put up, should we just take them out of the gene pool? Two behind the ear, right? Let us just take them out and try to eliminate their genes from the pool.

But now it is your brother, or your son, or your father. They were in all aspect’s good human beings before whatever neurochemistry in their brain caused them to favour those types of desires with those types of people where society says do not do that.

So, to be compassionate and fair to the polis at large, which we believe we have mandated ourselves to do, but we are not doing a very good job, what do we do for those people? We need to protect possible victims, no question about it. And this is what bothers some of my students. Was Burgess, right?

Was Anthony Burgess, right? Are we headed for a Clockwork Orange scenario? Where we are just going to fix the machinery. We are going to go in. First, we will ask the person, “Do you want to be a pedophile?” And if they say, “No, I hate causing pain to these children.”

Fine, “Do you wish to undergo a new therapy?” That we know will be developed; it is just a matter of decades. Where whatever “normal brains” are that do not desire to have sex with children and their brains that do desire to have sex with children, if we can fix the mechanisms within the neural transmission that causes the behaviours and the desires, then we take away the urges and we take away the crimes. Then we do not have victims.

We give the person their life back, and they no longer must hide from breaking these rules all the time. Of course, personal autonomy, if they do not wish to have this done, we still must let them know, we cannot have you running around society potentially harming children, so we are going to have to put you somewhere else.

We are going to have to keep an eye on you. We are going to have to institutionalize you. And that is the best treatment we can do. I know that is a perfect case scenario, perfect world case scenario. In some parts of the world, they are not going to have the finances to be able to do this.

Even in developed nations, we may not have the finances to do it. I am talking about a purely ideological level, what would the best-case scenario be in terms of treating people as just as possible, according to the golden rule and the no harm principles. That is one example.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Author; Educator; Philosopher; Fellow, Society of Ontario Freethinkers; Board Advisor, Freethought TV; Advisory Fellow Center for Inquiry Canada.

[2] Individual Publication Date: September 15, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-one; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part One) [Online].September 2018; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-one.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, September 15). An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part One). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-one.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, September. 2018. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-one>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-one.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (September 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-one.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-one>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-one.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):September. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-one>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Dr. Christopher DiCarlo (Part One) [Internet]. (2018, September; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/dicarlo-one.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-09-15

An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Four)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: September 15, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,045

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Monika Orski is the Ordförande/Chairman, Mensa Sverige/Mensa Sweden. She discusses: wisest person ever met; smartest people ever met; asking fundamental questions about society; the advancement and empowerment of women; donation of time, skills, professional networks, and so on, to Mensa Sweden; more men joining Mensa compared to women; positives and negatives of perfectionism; the potential of gifted and talented; smartest person in history; women being held back; writing tally; downsides and upsides to the bureaucracy; boundaries and possibilities of national Mensa groups; Behavioural Economics and Nikola Tesla at EMAG; and alternative IQ tests.

Keywords: chairman, Mensa Sverige, Mensa Sweden, Monika Orski, Ordförande.

An Interview with Monika Orski: Ordförande/Chairman, Mensa Sverige/Mensa Sweden (Part Four)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: If you reflect on personal interactions and literature read in life, who seems like the wisest person ever met by you?

Monika Orski: A thought-provoking question, but also a difficult and rather personal one.

There are friends I have learned many things from, and wise people I have met in different situations, and also books that have made me think – mostly reading the classics, ranging from Dostoevsky to Austen, from de la Fayette to Kafka, and from Cervantes to Woolf. But to name one wisest person seems an impossible task.

2. Jacobsen: Also, in terms of IQ, which is non-trivial as a life factor, who are the smartest people ever met by you?

Orski: Well, I am not in the habit of asking people about their IQ scores.

I have met many very smart people through Mensa, of course. I also have friends who have never taken an intelligence test, but who are clearly among the smartest people I ever met.

3. Jacobsen: Do these moves towards more streamlined and siloed educational systems inadvertently prevent the development of minds capable of asking fundamental questions about society, querying about the undergirding structures running the nation?

Orski: No, I wouldn’t say they prevent it. They do, however, make the development of minds more difficult, in the meaning that these systems obstruct the systematic, guided search for broad knowledge. Anyone can read a text book on a subject they are not yet familiar with, but a curriculum set by people already proficient in the area will give a starting point that is much better.

I return to the assertion that an educational system that allows for the development of the multi-curious while it still has clear paths for those in search of training for at specific profession, would be advantageous to all students, as well as to society. But it’s not an easy thing to implement. It would take partially new structures, and a different approach to university education.

4. Jacobsen: With the rise of women, in some limited domains, we see the counter to it. The rise in hyper-masculine, whether religious or non-religious manifestations, and even authoritarian groups in much of the West with the intent, in some of their efforts, to retract and regress the progress seen in women’s rights for the last few decades. Does this seem to be the case to you? If so, does this concern you? If it does concern you, what can effectively work to continue the advancement and empowerment of women?

Orski: I agree, and see this as a very palpable concern. I does concern me, and people close to me.

First thing, in my view, is to recognize that the authoritarian groups we are talking about try to reverse progress in several areas. They are racist, anti gay rights, against religious freedom – and also against the human rights of women. All those aspects should be viewed together, and fiercely opposed.

When we see these groups growing, it’s easy to be discouraged. I certainly am, sometimes. But all in all, most things still advance over time. The very strength of the backlash proves the power of progress. Of course, it also proves that progress has to be fought for, over and over again. This fight is done by a continuous assertion of basic democratic and human rights, for all.

But there are also everyday ways to continue the empowerment of women. We are all brought up to assess identical behavior slightly differently when done by a man then when done by a woman. We can all try to counteract this in our own reactions. Learn to use the same words when we describe the actions of a woman as we use when describing identical actions of a man, and for example not call her “aggressive” where he is “confident”.

Thus, let it be part of everyday life, but also a very important part of everyday politics.

5. Jacobsen: In terms of the pursuits of the multi-talented and multi-curious, I appreciate the work and effort for decades to help the gifted and talented young. It has been a significant concern for a long time for me. It warms my heart to see the work of the various national Mensa groups. Honestly, the population still seems underserved. Same with the older gifted and talented, who could be mentors and wise counsel for some of the gifted and talented young. It seems as if a waste of human capital and human flourishing to not invest in them more. How can people donate time, skills, professional networks, or join Mensa Sweden?

Orski: To join Mensa Sweden, start by going to www.mensa.se to find information about and register for an admittance test. Or, if you are not in Sweden, start at www.mensa.org to find a link to the website of your national Mensa, and look for information there.

Other than that, there are several volunteer organizations, not directly related to Mensa, that help young people add more knowledge and skills – and more fun – to the things they learn in school. Look for them to volunteer time and skills, they always need it.

6. Jacobsen: Why do so many more men join Mensa compared to women? How does this phenomenon impact relationships, dating, marriage, and potential family life for the mensans?

Orski: I wish I knew why. The figures do differ for different national Mensas, but this fact only underscores that there seem to be cultural factors of different sorts. My guess would be that men, statistically, tend to think more of their own intelligence. There might also be a factor of risk aversion, that women are more inclined not to want to take a test unless they are sure to get a high score.

Another interesting fact is that while the membership of Mensa Sweden is only about 25% women, the group of volunteers is significantly closer to 50-50. Thus, it seems that women are less likely to want to join the society, but those who do seek membership are more likely to take active part once they have joined.

I don’t think the gender statistics within Mensa has any significant impact on the dating and family life of mensans in general. I know some couples who have met through Mensa, and others who joined together, but at the end of the day it’s simply another social context for people to meet a potential partner, fortunately not the only one.

7. Jacobsen: What are the positives and negatives of the “sometimes impossibly high standards” of the gifted and talented? 

Orski: Ambition is generally a good thing. So is the endeavour always to do a little better, get a little further. I also think that a will always to ask more of yourself than of anybody else, is a sign of being a sentient a sensible person.

There is a risk to it, too. The risk is that you try to overachieve in ways that push yourself beyond what is reasonable to expect of any human being with normal, human weaknesses. That is what I mean by the gifted sometimes having not only high standards for themselves, but impossibly high standards.

8. Jacobsen: How are the gifted and talented often left languishing or simply wasted as not only individuals with needs but also potential massive contributors to the flourishing of the nation?

Orski: I am still not convinced that they are. There are many ways to make a happy life for yourself and contribute to the society you are part of. While I am very much in favour of a schooling system that would recognize the needs of the gifted earlier, I would not say that the gifted and talented are often wasted. Which, of course, does not diminish the need to work to let more people explore their potential, and find paths to do so at earlier ages.

9. Jacobsen: Who seems like the smartest person in history to you, as a pervasively intelligent human being?

Orski: I could repeat the list of names from your question about geniuses in the history of Western Europe, and add some. Inventors like Cai Lun (if he did invent paper, as has been attributed to him), Leonardo da Vinci, Johannes Gutenberg. Writers like Sophocles, Murasaki Shikibu, Dostoevsky, Tolstoy. I could go on at length. But to put down only one name is an impossible task.

10. Jacobsen: Women remain more objectified than men. This ties into the evaluations of women not as complete persons with rights, responsibilities, wants, needs, and goals and dreams but as objects of beauty and admiration of physical characteristics. How does this cross-cultural phenomenon undermine women’s intellectual courage, capacity to pursue their dreams without undue and unfair criticism and setback not normally expected in – for example – the lives of most men, and lower their standards for themselves and, if heterosexual, the men in their lives too? Why would working on the reduction of this phenomena lead to more flourishing – eudaimonia – of women and a raising of standards for the men in their lives?

Orski: This is another aspect of being held back, in all sorts of ways. It is also among the things explored in the rich feminist literature, from “A Vindication of the Rights of Women” by Wollstonecraft, via “Le Deuxième Sexe” by de Beauvoir, and on to our days.

It is something that has to be worked at every day, in the everyday lives of all of us. As I already mentioned, we know that we assess identical behavior slightly differently depending on the gender of the person we interact with. I can get angry with myself when I notice that I expect a little more work, and a slightly higher quality of work, form women I work with than from a man in the same position. We all need to counteract this in ourselves.

Then, there are all the things that women are taught to take in stride, while no man is expected to accept them. The resent “me too” movement has made people more aware of this fact. I actually think that bringing up the everyday mostly-not-quite-harassment that basically every women is subject to at some point, has had even more of an impact than the loud and outrageous cases that, of course, should be handled by the judicial system.

And yes, I do agree that this will, step by step, lead to more flourishing of women and men alike.

11. Jacobsen: How many words do you write per day? How many days per week? When is there a break between writing?

Orski: Sometimes, when I sit down to write for an hour, the result is the draft of at short story of 5 pages. At other times, it’s a single paragraph. It all depends on the stage of that particular text. When I edit a longer text, as I do now with the upcoming book, I spend less time on new material. On the other hand, to go for a walk and than write a flash fiction short story can be a great way to free the brain of blockage when things do not come out right in the text I’m mainly working at.

As writing is not my primary work, it also depends on how much time and effort I need to spend on my consulting work, as well as the volunteer work I have taken on. But in general, if I do not write at all for a week or two, it is usually a sign that I have taken on to much to be able to relax, and I try to consider that a warning sign to be heeded.

12. Jacobsen: Are there bureaucratic downsides to a national and international Mensa leadership? What are the upsides, comparatively?

Orski: There are bureaucratic downsides to every organization. Not even Mensa has been able to come up with a complete remedy for this phenomenon.

From a national Mensa point of view, we have some rules set down by national and local traditions, and other by being part of an international organization. Mensa International business is always conducted in English, which adds a language barrier for all of us who are not in English-speaking countries. For example, we always have to keep an English translation of the bylaws of our national Mensa, and before the membership can vote on changing anything in the bylaws, the proposal has to be translated into English and reviewed at the international level.

But all in all, Mensa is not very bureaucratic, for being an international organization with around 150 000 members world wide. That is one of the upsides of an organization being run by members for members, with most of the work done by volunteers.

13. Jacobsen: What are boundaries and possibilities of national Mensa groups? What can and cannot be done? That is, what are the limits for the national groups or representative organizations?

Orski: In short, Mensa as an organization shall not express an opinion as being that of Mensa, take any political action, or have any ideological, philosophical, political or religious affiliation. Members can have all sorts of opinions and affiliations, of course, bur Mensa cannot.

As a national Mensa chapter, we keep to the purpose of Mensa:

“to identify and foster human intelligence for the benefit of humanity; to encourage research in the nature, characteristics, and uses of intelligence; and to provide a stimulating intellectual and social environment for members.”

14. Jacobsen: What was most fascinating about Behavioural Economics and Nikola Tesla?

Orski: Both of those EMAG lectures were well prepared and well performed. Also, I learned new things, which is always a pleasure.

Behavioural Economics, with its mixture of well-researched psychology into more classic economic theory, is a highly interesting area. We probably all know we are not always strictly rational, but here is a way to measure and explain it.

The lecture on Nicola Tesla focused on the inventor Tesla’s work on energy sources, where he was very early to see the need for new, renewable and alternative energy sources. An interesting and quite modern topic for someone active in the 1920s and 1930s.

15. Jacobsen: There are alternative IQ tests for societies with very high IQ cutoffs. Some developed by qualified psychometricians, or at least those with experimental psychology and statistics backgrounds. Others are from intelligent people without these formal qualifications. What is the general perspective of the high-IQ community of these tests? What is the range of quality of them? What is the average of the quality of them? Has Mensa ever accepted them for membership? Have they ever been considered for qualification of membership?

Orski: The qualification definition, being among the 2%, is the same for Mensa all over the world. The tests accepted as evidence, however, can differ between national Mensas. This is the reason I do not really know the answer to this. There might be some such “very high-IQ” test created by a qualified psychometrician and accepted as evidence somewhere, although I am not currently aware of any such instance.

Mostly, those tests remain in the realm of puzzles. Some people really like doing them, and the creators usually get a certain amount of good reputation for providing them. However, it’s very hard to measure intelligence at levels where the number of possible test subjects is scarce. Thus, most of these test will probably remain nice puzzles, rather than actual tests.

References

  1. Mensa International. (2018). Mensa Sweden. Retrieved from https://www.mensa.org/country/sweden.
  2. Mensa Sverige. (2018). Mensa Sverige. Retrieved from https://www.mensa.se/.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Ordförande/Chairman, Mensa Sverige/Mensa Sweden.

[2] Individual Publication Date: September 15, 2018: www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-four; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Four) [Online].September 2018; 18(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-four.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, September 15). An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Four). Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-four.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Four). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, September. 2018. <www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-four>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-four.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (September 2018). www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-four.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Four)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-four>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Four)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-four.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):September. 2018. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-four>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Four) [Internet]. (2018, September; 18(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-four.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-09-15

An Interview with Ryan Bellerose (Part One)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: September 15, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,756

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Ryan Bellerose is a Métis Activist and Writer from Northern Alberta, and a Co-Founder of Calgary United with Israel (CUWI). He discusses: family background; personal heritage; the Israel-Palestine issue; myths around Indigenous land rights; status of some treaties; Metis and non-Indigenous populations working together; and land rights issues between Israel-Palestine and Indigenous-and-non-Indigenous Canada.

Keywords: activist, Calgary, Israel, Métis, Northern Alberta, Ryan Bellerose, writer.

An Interview with Ryan Bellerose (Part One): Métis Activist; Writer; Co-Founder, Calgary United with Israel (CUWI)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What is family background regarding geography, language, culture, and religion/irreligion?

Ryan Bellerose:  My family is Metis, we have our roots in the Red River area in Manitoba, just south of modern-day Winnipeg. We were forced to move west after the northwest rebellion to an area in what is now St. Albert, but were again forced to move north to what is now the Fort Vermillion area and the Paddle Prairie Metis Settlement in Northern Alberta.

We spoke mainly Cree and Michif and were mainly Roman Catholic with a mix of traditional Cree spirituality. My family was mostly pretty atheist as my Father and some of his brothers and sisters were in residential schools and had a strong dislike of organised religion because of that.

I grew up Catholic because my mother was a child of white settlers who farmed in the Rocky lane area and were French and Norwegian stock. They were very religious people. I left Catholicism after travelling to Israel a few years ago and realising that if I am trying to advocate for a cultural resurgence, I needed to follow my own path.

My Family was very traditional on both sides, I grew up hunting and fishing, and my father moved to a very remote place when I was a small child, so I spent half the year with him in the bush and half with my mother in town and eventually the city where she attended university. This gave me a firm grasp on what life was like on both sides of the Indigenous issue.

2. Jacobsen: How does a personal Metis heritage provide a foundation for knowledge about Indigenous rights issues, especially land claim issues?

Bellerose: It does not, without a strong family knowledge, and a personal desire to know and understand the Indigenous struggle, there is no real foundation. many Indigenous people are so involved in the day to day struggle to survive that they do not have a very good knowledge base let alone a strong grasp on the macro struggle for Indigenous rights.

That is why we have so many people who say things that are counterproductive but feel good. Instead of being focused on fixing the issues in our communities many have bought into the perpetual victimhood narrative of the left and rather than working on bringing everyone up, to a baseline, want to drag others down to create another lower bar.

3. Jacobsen: The Israel-Palestine issue continues to fan flames, not only between the two countries’ citizens but also internationally for a variety of reasons. What seems to make the most sense of the land claims issues from an Indigenous rights perspective? Why does this seem the most evidenced and substantive as a case? How does this argument relate to the Canadian context with Indigenous land rights claims?

Bellerose: Its actually a very simple issue at the core, either you believe that Indigenous people have the right to live in peace and worship the Creator in their own manner, speak their own language, and manifest their own cultural identity on their ancestral lands, with access to their sacred places and self-determination, or you do not.

If you support those things and you are a reader of history and understand the indicators of indigeneity, you support the Jewish people who are Indigenous to that specific land. This does not mean they have the right to forcibly remove anyone and they have not, but it does mean they have the right to be there on their ancestral lands protecting their sacred sites.

The false narrative of Arab Indigenous status is easily debunked, because Indigenous status is site-specific. For instance, I am Metis/Cree, you can call me an Indian or native Canadian, but I am not Indigenous to all of Canada I am Indigenous to the Red River area.

Just as an Englishman can be called European but his language and culture were developed mainly in what is now England, not Spain. Arabs are Indigenous to the Hejaz or the Arabian peninsula where their language and sacred places began and are located.

It relates because if we allow the argument that colonisers can become Indigenous through passage of time or through conquering of Indigenous people, and not through genesis of culture and coalescence of a people, then the same argument would apply here in a few more years and white Europeans would be Indigenous to Canada for the same reasons.

4. Jacobsen: What seems like the common myths around Indigenous land rights claims now, in this country? What truths dispel them?

Bellerose: The most common myths are that all land in Canada was surrendered under the treaty, that one was simply not true, there are many unceded lands in Canada where tribes were not even consulted and simply subsumed without even knowing.

Their leaders never signed anything. Another common myth is that we are all equal under the law, when in fact Indians who live on the reserve cannot own their own lands, do not have full ownership of their homes and in fact, are considered under the law to be wards of the crown.

I think the more damaging myths though are the “Indians don’t pay taxes” nonsense and “we pay for everything for Indians” myths. First off, the only Indians who do not pay taxes have to live and work on the reserve, which very, very few Indians do.

The money that pays for the entire industry to run comes from the transfer trust agreement which was an agreement by the government to put all resource money into a trust to be overseen by the government. That money has slowly been misused and access has never been openly granted to us.

5. Jacobsen: What are the current statuses of some of the more prominent treaties of the land of the Indians in Canada? What media coverage obscures the truths stated before? Do certain outlets not provide accurate coverage of half-truth coverage out of political and social convenience? If so, what ones? 

Bellerose: That is a complex question you must understand that out east most of the treaties are federal and with the crown, in BC the treaties are different. The biggest issue is not the treaty lands but the fact that there are so many areas that were unceded by the actual native people in the area.

Media coverage is generally poor because most media does not do much research and trends towards tabloidism rather than journalism.

6. Jacobsen: To extend a trite question, how can the Metis and non-Indigenous populations work together, toward more unified and common goals of integration in various domains? What will this take from the members of the communities and the leaders of those communities?

Bellerose: Working together can only come from a foundation of mutual respect and honesty which has not been the case. We are not just fighting stereotypes but actual paradigms those paradigms will be difficult to change.

7. Jacobsen: What seems like the areas where the Israel-Palestine issue does not overlap with, for example, the land rights and treaties issues between Canada and various Indigenous/Indian nations?

Bellerose: For beginners, in Canada, the Indigenous population is not the majority. We do not have the sheer numbers for a democracy to be anything more than a different kind of tyranny for us.

In Israel, the Jews are the majority and can assert themselves democratically to maintain their culture, language, and religion. In Canada, we cannot do that. Our goals must be modified, we need to argue for more participatory power in government, more actual power in those governments and for our traditions to be taught and respected.

Without that, our people will eventually be subsumed and assimilated. That was the original goal of the white government and has always been at the forefront of our minds when we deal with them.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Métis Activist; Writer; Co-Founder, Calgary United with Israel (CUWI).

[2] Individual Publication Date: September 15, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bellerose-one; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Ryan Bellerose (Part One) [Online].September 2018; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bellerose-one.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, September 15). An Interview with Ryan Bellerose (Part One). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bellerose-one.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Ryan Bellerose (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, September. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bellerose-one>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Ryan Bellerose (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bellerose-one.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Ryan Bellerose (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (September 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bellerose-one.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Ryan Bellerose (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bellerose-one>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Ryan Bellerose (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bellerose-one.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Ryan Bellerose (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):September. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bellerose-one>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Ryan Bellerose (Part One) [Internet]. (2018, September; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bellerose-one.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Leave a Comment
2018-09-08

An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Three)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: September 8, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,593

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Monika Orski is the Ordförande/Chairman, Mensa Sverige/Mensa Sweden. She discusses: collaboration with other Mensa chapters; other chapters helpful in the development of Mensa Sweden; the trend towards streamlined education; sex differences and similarities in general intelligence; signifiers of giftedness; typical means by which the gifted are punished; the unprecedented flourishing of women; pitfalls and difficulties in a life of writing; and some of the activities, memorable dialogues, and decisions made through the EMAG.

Keywords: chairman, Mensa Sverige, Mensa Sweden, Monika Orski, Ordförande.

An Interview with Monika Orski: Ordförande/Chairman, Mensa Sverige/Mensa Sweden (Part Three)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: How does collaboration work with the other Mensa chapters? What have been some of the collaborative projects worked on together?

Monika Orski: There is formal cooperation, to shape the rules that make Mensa chapters around the world all stay part of the federation. Then there is informal and semi-formal cooperation, mostly to create opportunities for members to meet.

Within Europe, there is a semi-formal cooperation around an annual common meeting, known as EMAG (European Mensa Annual Gathering). Formally, it is hosted by a different Mensa each year, but previous and future organizers cooperate closely for every event. I have attended every one since the start in 2008, and they have all been great fun. Also, I was the coordinator when we did one in Stockholm, in 2012.

Within the Nordics, we have a more recent common annual meeting, known as the Floating Mensans, as it is always a cruise between two of the countries. We have done two this far, had good success, and expect this meeting type to continue. We also cooperate to try and help create Mensa groups in neighbouring countries where Mensa is not yet present. In addition, I think all Nordic chairs are very happy about an annual chairs’ meeting, when we exchange experiences and best practices and offer each other support when needed.

2. Jacobsen: How have the other chapters been helpful in the development of Mensa Sweden?

Orski: The very first Mensa group in Sweden was founded in 1964 by a member of American Mensa, Jay Albrecht, who lived in Stockholm for a few years. Without that seed, who knows if we would have the thriving national group of today.

Then, there is always an exchange of ideas. For example, when Mensa Sweden had a large revision of our bylaws around 15 years ago, we got many good ideas from Mensa Norway, who had done a similar revision about a year earlier, but we also picked up some ideas from Mensa Hungary. More recently, we have been able to use experiences from Czech Mensa in discussions about paper publishing or e-publishing of our Mensa magazine, seen some interesting ideas from Australian Mensa regarding young members, etc. We are all part of an international organization, and that is among the key strengths of Mensa.

3. Jacobsen: Some individuals work to reduce the diversity of the possible programs for an individual student’s training. Some recent news items arose in the feed for me. With respect to the training and education earned in various disciplines including the typically higher-prestige and higher-paying jobs mentioned by you, what might shift the emphasis from the siloed education typified in some modern post-secondary education – for a teacher, a psychologist, or an engineer, and so on – to a  broader base? An education for someone with the more plural, life-long intellectual interests rather than the singular professional ones.

Orski: There seems to be a continued development towards more streamlined, and siloed, education. My guess is that it’s mostly driven by short-term economic reasons, but it can also be perceived as making it easier to find the right education for a student with a purpose to pursue a specific profession. It would certainly not be easy to shift the other way, into a broader base.

One step towards such a broader base would be to allow students to start out with two, or even three, parallel courses from start. Let the multi-talented, and the multi-curious, try out several paths without a clear-cut switch between them. Then, let them continue – one path or several – and add more learning, some of which can be from entirely different disciplines.

While I think the general tracks for education into specific jobs also needs to remain there for those who know that one of those tracks is what they want, it should also be made easy to put together the required parts of such a track from the multi-course track, for those who start out there and then want to be qualified for a certain profession. Even within the specific job educational tracks, there should be room for, and time for, the possibility to also take some courses in other disciplines.

Not an easy change, of course. But in the long run, it would benefit all students.

4. Jacobsen: In personal and experience and knowing the data better than me, what differences exist between girls and boys, men and women, with respect to general intelligence? What similarities exist between them too? Do these considerations influence the provisions of Mensa Sweden?

Orski: In short, as far as we know there are no such differences. At least, I have not heard of any serious research that showed such differences and could be repeated.

There are many theories regarding this topic, usually spread along with claims of ”natural differences” that any quick examination will disprove as things that have differed over time and differ between cultures. These assertions are usually made by people with a clear political agenda, and do not merit anything but the quick examination that disproves them.

As far as I know, there has actually been one scientific study that showed a small difference between men and women regarding the spread of intelligence. According to this study, while the average intelligence of men and women is the same, there is a small but measurable predominance of men in the extremes of intelligence – very low intelligence as well as very high. However, the study has been criticized for not having enough subjects at these extremes to be statistically significant, and no one has yet been able to recreate the results.

As I mentioned before, we do see a small but clear difference among those who take our admission test, in that women are more likely to “pass”, i.e. score among the top 2%. But there is absolutely no proof that this shows a general difference in intelligence. After all, only a very small portion of the population take our test, and among those who do there are many more men than women. It seems probable the difference in ”pass” percentage simply exposes a difference in how sure of their own high intelligence women and men need to be to go take the test.

5. Jacobsen: If someone is a layperson and has an inkling someone in their life is gifted, what non-professional observational clue would indicate the various levels of the giftedness of this person in their life? The signifiers, maybe not universal but probably indicative, of the person being gifted, highly gifted, even profoundly and exceptionally gifted.

Orski: The highly gifted usually display some combination of the following traits: thinks fast, asks many questions, quickly infers more information from what they are told, has many ideas, has multiple interests, has more than one profession, likes in-depth discussions, likes to learn new things, has a well-developed sense of humour, learns easily. Many are also high achievers, and set extremely high standards for themselves. Sometimes impossibly high standards, that they would not dream of setting for anyone else.

In children, you can add that they are usually early in many things. Read early, pass intellectual milestones early, develop an interest in world events and adult conversations early. They also tend to be easily bored, and can have some trouble in interactions with other children. Regardless of whether they find other children they like to spend time with, they also tend to like solitary activities.

None of those traits are universal, of course. But if you see several of them in someone, they are likely to be highly gifted.

6. Jacobsen: Regarding punitive educational philosophies and methodologies, what seems like the more typical forms of punishing the gifted for being gifted?

Orski: Holding them back, is my short answer. I know many stories of young children who, when they showed their teachers they had done all the exercises in their textbook, were told to ”do them over again”. As if there could be nothing more for them to learn. And of course, they often get explicitly told to hold back, and try and adjust to the average pace of their classmates.

7. Jacobsen: We watch the unique flourishing of women in most areas of education, especially in undergraduate education in the developed nations. Girls and young women continue to opt into the world of education. Boys and young men seem to opt out more now. Girls and young women had various ceilings imposed on them for a long time, especially in the world of education. Boys and young men did not have the ceilings. Now, though, they seem to have the problem of a motivational ceiling – of sorts – imposed on themselves. Why the gap in education attendance, completion, and performance between girls and boys, and young women and young men?

Orski: I doubt that anyone really has a good answer to this question. As you say, there seems to be sort of motivational ceiling, or motivational deficit. Formal education is considered less important, partially as an effect of the growing importance within our whole society of personal characteristics and certain sets of social skills, at the expense of knowledge. And areas considered less important are usually left to women.

We also need to remember that the exact same behaviour will be assessed differently, depending on whether the person doing it is male or female. We all learn this so early, it is almost impossible to fully counteract it in our own reactions, even when we are aware of it. For some reason, judgements of boys not making an effort to take in the education they are offered seem to be much more tolerant than they are of girls with the same behaviour.

Many boys and young men seem to expect to get good jobs and incomes without having to make any sort of effort. There is such a tendency among some girls and young women too, but it is much less common. At the other end of the spectrum, more boys seem to give up early, and expect nothing more than to gain a kind of respect from their peers by the ability to use their fists, or at worst, the ability to procure and use weapons. But as to why this is so? I have no answer.

8. Jacobsen: What are the pitfalls and main difficulties of a life in writing?

Orski: The first difficulty is to actually sit down and write the text. I have met many persons who say ”I would like to write a book”, but what they really mean is ”I would like to have written a book”. Most of them never even try, of course. I guess someone with very strong character and determination could write a book only driven by the wish to have written it, but most of us need to like the writing itself to do it.

To like writing means to like hours by yourself with your text. There are sometimes good hours of progress, but sometimes also very slow hours when things simply will not work out, until you tried tens of different ways to put your words down. The ensuing frustration and criticism of your own work go with the territory.

Then, there is the obvious difficulty of having it published and, most crucially, read. Today, self-publication is easy, but to get readers without a publishing house to help is very difficult. I would strongly recommend to try and get the help of old-fashioned publishing house publication. Even then, as I mentioned before, only a few writers can make a living out of their writing, especially if you work within a small linguistic region.

9. Jacobsen: What have been some of the activities and memorable dialogues and decisions made through the EMAG?

Orski: Over the years, there have been workshops on improv theatre, math, dancing, geocaching, Wikipedia, singing, martial arts, meditation, creative writing and many other topics. Among the lectures, the topics range from business to science and from art to language studies. To mention a few, this year in Belgrade in August, I heard very good lectures on Behavioural Economics and on Nikola Tesla. I also gave a lecture this year, on leading intelligent people, with a bias towards the challenges and joys of leading Mensa volunteers.

There is also a tourist program every year, a great opportunity to see a town you might not have visited otherwise. But the most important part are the mensans, old friends you see every year and new ones you meet for the first time. I have had very interesting conversations on climate change, EU politics, complex computer systems, health issues, data protection, dating life, education of gifted children, midnight sun, and how to mix a drink – just to mention a few from this year.

References

  1. Mensa International. (2018). Mensa Sweden. Retrieved from https://www.mensa.org/country/sweden.
  2. Mensa Sverige. (2018). Mensa Sverige. Retrieved from https://www.mensa.se/.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Ordförande/Chairman, Mensa Sverige/Mensa Sweden.

[2] Individual Publication Date: September 8, 2018: www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-three; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Three) [Online].September 2018; 18(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-three.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, September 8). An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Three). Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-three.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Three). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, September. 2018. <www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-three>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-three.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (September 2018). www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-three.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-three>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-three.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):September. 2018. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-three>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Three) [Internet]. (2018, September; 18(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-three.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-09-08

An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part Four)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: September 8, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,553

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Susan Murabana is an Astronomer and Rotarian, and Founder of the Travelling Telescope. She discusses: Galileo Galilei and Copernicus; dark matter and dark energy; the most common question from children for the Travelling Telescope; critical thinking for the young; Kenyan sociocultural barriers to the education of science; science’s epistemology; the privileged place of religion in Kenya; a unified front for science education in Africa; The Clergy Project; and United Church of Canada, and religious parents and children.

Keywords: astronomer, Rotarian, Susan Murabana, Travelling Telescope.

Interview with Susan Murabana: Astronomer and Rotarian, and Founder, Travelling Telescope (Part Four)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: You mentioned Galileo Galilee as a personal hero to you. He has that famous phrase E pur si muove – “it still moves,” after his being imprisoned in his household even after they showed the people trying him the telescope and showing them… Was it Saturn’s moons? Or Jupiter’s moons?

There are other examples of that. Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake partly for positing many other galaxies and stars and planets, but also because he rejected the Trinity and the Church was not too hot on that. Also, who was the geocentricism to heliocentrism?

Susan Murabana: Copernicus.

Jacobsen: Copernicus, I think it was in Copernicus’ texts; I think in his acknowledgments he had Aristophanes who had posited a long time ago, but did not necessarily have the scientific backing for the laws. So, we have this trend of considered basic facts that aren’t with further or future scientific discovery.

So, we go from as you noted early in the interview, from a geocentric or Earth-centric view to an helio-centered or sun-centered view of “the universe.” Then we go from a solar system to a galaxy that has 100, 200 million stars and then that many galaxies.

What is another idea that is widely accepted now that you think might go the way of geocentricism or things of that nature?

Murabana: Wow, I do not know what to say but to talk about, it is one of my good examples, the fact that we have the atom smasher and stuff like that. We thought the solar system was this big then we realized we belong to this galaxy. We are not even at the centre of the galaxy and there are many galaxies and billions of stars.

Now, maybe, there are more than one universe and stuff like that. I do not know how to answer your question. I would have to think about it.

2. Jacobsen: There is the big question about the nature of 96% of the universe, by which I mean dark matter and dark energy. What are they? Why are they hard to both detect and categorize in relevance to the other 4%? What we are made of, the ordinary matter that we are made of.

Murabana: The stuff we know and can account for and there is some we do not know. Let me think about it a bit longer.

3. Jacobsen: What is the most common question that children give to the Travelling Telescope team?

Murabana: At some point, the most common question is why Pluto is not a planet anymore.

Jacobsen: [Laughing] oh no.

Murabana: Obviously, with New Horizons, it is interesting to talk to them about it because there is a lot being discovered. What other question do they like asking? Yes, I think that’s one of the most common questions that comes across, about Pluto. I told you we do a song with the kids and we almost did a Pluto song. I think we came up with the lyrics for the song.

I feel like young kids identify with Pluto because Pluto is the smallest or was the smallest planet in our solar system until we reclassified it as a dwarf planet. That’s part of the reason they ask the question. Another question that comes up a lot is what a black hole is. That is another common question we get. I am sure there are others, but I cannot think of them right now.

Another question they ask is, “Have you ever been to space?” [Laughing] People confuse astronomy and astrology a lot. It feels like we’ve gone to schools and sometimes we are introduced as astrologists and we must explain to them what astrology is and that it is not astronomy. The most common I think I can remember is black holes, but one of the most common is why Pluto is no longer a planet. Why it was declassified?

4. Jacobsen: Your example of being assumed astrologers when you’re coming in as astronomers, recalls for me critical tinkling. It would be akin to inviting the “Travelling Chemistry,” let’s say, and then going to the classroom and being introduced as alchemists [Laughing].

In that sense, what is the importance of critical thinking especially at a young age?

Murabana: That’s a good question. I think it is important at a young age because the whole idea of trying to think and use the scientific approach as a way of getting solutions. Questioning and then experimenting and then deducing, coming up with a result. I think critical thinking is important at a young age.

5. Jacobsen: Within Kenya, what are some sociocultural barriers to the education of science? I am not sure if I asked that question already, but I think that’s important.

Murabana: Religion prevents it in my opinion. I feel that sometimes, a person’s economic status. Another thing is to try to encourage experiments with readily available materials. But sometimes, I get the feeling that because people belong in a certain area or kids are in a certain area feel they cannot do certain experiments because they do not have access to money or resources to get different materials. That influences it.

Another thing is knowledge. I do not know how to put it. Some are not quite used to computers. They shy off from that. They wouldn’t use computers because they do not feel confident. So, some activities we do are computer based. We could get rejection from certain groups of people because they do not feel confident.

With their teachers, we’ve gotten good reception. In some cases, we find it difficult. One of the most common questions for teachers is where we place the creation theory when we talk about.

It is like religion, not science. Sometimes it happens.

6. Jacobsen: In a way, it seems to come down to me to a different epistemology, a different way of knowing in other words. A supernaturalistic epistemology looks for things unseen. Science comes from natural philosophy, by which I mean science as a proper branch of philosophy, based in looking for natural causes through natural means.

Therefore, naturalism, naturalistic epistemology, which is science, will come up with natural answers and if you’re dealing with different epistemologies, you’ll come up with different answers. It happens that we live in the natural world insofar as that’s what natural science teaches us.

So, we come up with evolutionary theory, the table of elements, continental drift, plate tectonics, the big bang, and so on, rather than the world is 6,000-to-10,000-years-old based on Bishop James Ussher counting all the ages in the Bible. I can see that.

Murabana: Kenya is a religious society. A good number of Kenyans are either Muslims or Christians. Religion is a big thing in school as well. Most schools either push a lot of Christianity or Islam, so we do not want to go there and make the school feel that we are disrespectful of their beliefs. It is normally an uncomfortable situation, especially if the teacher is asking about the creation stories in the presence of kids.

It is a whole different topic, I guess. Sometimes, I feel an instance of social culture or obviously the other cultural interests. I cannot think of that right now. Some teachers are good in the sense that culturally, they collected traditional sky knowledge from the older generations and sometimes you get kids that are trying to go back to their parents or grandparents to try and collect traditional sky knowledge.

I guess to feel that connection of us with the sky. Maybe one day, we’ll get some scientific knowledge or scientific proof from what was traditionally done in connection to the sky. It is exciting.

7. Jacobsen: Based on what you’re saying, my interpretation, and I want you to correct me if I am wrong please, is in Kenya religion does have a privileged place.

If I am understanding you correctly, within Kenya, and within other countries, of course, religion has a privileged place in that the religious practitioners and teachers can give that education to kids based in a specific religious belief system whereas those that have an irreligious system of operating in the world, cannot. That, therefore, means a double standard.

Murabana: I feel that it is complicated in my view because they do learn science and that’s more education. We have an astronomer talking about the big bang theory and things like that and he lied to the classroom and that’s it. When you try to question it, all the other things come in and one of the main influences is religion.

I do not know if it is still taught in the classroom, but they still learn about astronomy and things like that. Teachers try to be as correct as possible and they are open to the Travelling Telescope team or when other experts come on board.

But sometimes religion and the creation theory come into play because these are two different theories trying to explain how we came into existence. Especially if we talk about how the Sun has existed all this time, or the Sun is a star and will grow old and die eventually. Things like that as part of questions about the creation theory and things like that.

It is interesting because as you say, science is about things that have been proven or are consistent. Religion is more personal, and it is hard to try and have arguments when it is on a personal level. Kenya is a religious country in the sense you have huge Christian and Muslim communities.

Some of the schools are built from funding from the Church or the Muslim community. We go to these schools and teach these kids and it is gone most of the time. We feel we’ve left an impact. On one or two occasions, we get those questions.

8. Jacobsen: Is there an overarching organization to unite either regions of the continent of Africa or all of them together? Are there associations among organizations? So, a collective?

Your own organization or others that come together to teach astronomy, science, all these things under one banner to make operations more effective and coherent across a larger range of activities and places?

Murabana: Africa now, we have the Office of Astronomy for Development, which is an international astronomy community office. The key thing is to do outreach everywhere in the world, but it is being helpful in Africa. We have that office based in South Africa and there are regional offices. One is in East Africa, one in West Africa, one in Southern Africa, and I do not know if there is one in North Africa but that’s the biggest body, which is such a huge resource for everyone.

I know quite several people across Africa who are doing outreach in astronomy using different organizations, but we are all able to meet or connect through the Office of Astronomy for Development. There are other organizations like Astronomer’s without Borders or Global Hands (?) and the Universe Awareness which are mostly global.

There is an African Astronomical Society which was created to connect astronomers across the continent. It is also difficult the do cross Africa. Movement from West Africa to East Africa is expensive, so coordinating our meetings for everyone is normally difficult. It hasn’t quite survived.

They also have the East African Astronomical Society, which has meetings almost every year. So, there are many different bodies. We all seem to communicate. This year, we went to Tanzania for an annual eclipse. We traveled there to try and do outreach, but we were able to meet up with the astronomers there. The outreach people from Universe Awareness. We joined them and were a big group. Having that connection is good globally, but especially within Africa.

Jacobsen: I think we have covered everything [Laughing]. I do not know if I have any other questions.

Murabana: Cool. It has been interesting talking to you.

Jacobsen: Thank you.

Murabana: I do not have all the answers and I probably drifted away but it is interesting, and you made me think about certain things differently or probably try to go back and think about certain things. It is being an interesting interview and I enjoyed it.

9. Jacobsen: Thank you much I appreciate that. It is mutual. There are other topics that come to mind. I want to be mindful of your time. There is a philosopher in the United States called Daniel Dennett from Tufts University.

He and this one woman got together. And they did this research project, and called it The Clergy Project. I was talking to her on the phone because she wanted to say, “Hi,” before we did the interview.

Basically, they have these ministers and pastors and priests and so on, who are still giving sermons and they do not believe anymore. They haven’t believed in a long time, but they are still giving sermons.

Murabana: There are some priests who do not believe in it anymore?

Jacobsen: They are atheists. Some of them.

Murabana: [Laughing] what? That’s interesting.

Jacobsen: One person did come out and, as you might predict, social and professional suicide. They lost everything. They were fired the day after. Their family. They did not talk to them, nothing. They lost everything, by coming out.

Murabana: Why?

Jacobsen: Because they came out as atheists.

Murabana: They said they were atheists and that was it?

Jacobsen: That was it. The person who said it confided in a colleague and that colleague told the higher-ups in the Church system.

Murabana: Is that in the US or…?

10. Jacobsen: …That was in the US, but I have talked to another woman. I did not know this. So, Toronto and Vancouver are the big cities in Canada. I am in Vancouver.

I was reading the Globe and Mail or the Toronto Star, and there is an article about the United Church of Canada, which is a liberal church. Probably the most liberal church, like almost nothing is literal in the text when reading it. It is more often about metaphor and life lessons through parable, tale, metaphor, analogy, and narratives.

Basically, going back to original Gospel readings, preaching love and forgiveness and neighborliness, not so bad, a proactive Golden Rule. Basically, you’re reading a text by John Stuart Mill.

This woman whose name is Minister Gretta Vosper. She came out as, I think, it was a deist and then came out as non-supernaturalistic, non-theist, and then recently she came out as an atheist.

Her congregation was totally cool with it. They did not care. But after that, recently in September the United Church of Canada has set up a review board based on complaints, not from the congregation, but from the higher ups that they have an atheist in their ranks. Who woulda thunk?

Basically, people have an issue with it. So, I talked to her in the middle of it and she is under a lot of pressure. She is part of that same Clergy Project. She is one of the few that are open. The others know that if they leave that, they lose everything.

In a lot of cases, that’s why I was bringing up the questions about religion having a privileged place because they have full access to kids. Richard Dawkins made this point where he compared it by analogy to the 60s and 70s women’s rights movement in the United States where it was consciousness raising, especially for men – changing the terminology.

Not “mankind” but “humankind,” things like that. One that he pointed out was by example. His example, and I am paraphrasing, is you look at a picture and see three children. In the newspaper, it will say, here is Mark, Taylor, and Tyler. Mark the Muslim child, Taylor the Christian child, and Tyler the Jewish child.

No one has any problem with that. Then he says, “Okay, let’s see if we do the same thing as with religion but we do it politically.” Same children, same picture, but here are 3 children Mark, Taylor, and Tyler.

Mark the Libertarian child, Taylor the Republican child, and Tyler Keynesian child, and it immediately becomes funny because children, for the most part, are too young to have read and considered a serious economic theory to have a standardized position on what economic theory works best.

Yet, we assume a child by being born in a household, a parent, usually a male head of the household – that’s how these things work generally – or both parents, to be the religion of the parents. I would apply this to irreligion as well: that, therefore, those children have those beliefs as well.

It would be akin to parents having a political view and then the children having that view. In Canada, we have that same thing where we have free access in providing the parents’ beliefs to the children.

You do not have a Christian, Muslim, or Jewish child. You have Christian, Muslim, or Jewish parents with a child or children with Jewish, Christian, or Muslim parents. That was a big consciousness raising moment for me. I think for others in a lot of cases too.

Murabana: That’s interesting.

Jacobsen: You mentioned heroes. We’ve talked about most things under or about the Sun. The only other things I’d probably ask are: who is a favourite philosopher? Do you have any recommended books? Those would probably be the last two.

Murabana: The Cosmos. I think that’s big. Favourite philosopher? I am not so much of a favourite person, I cannot figure that out [Laughing]. I struggle to think of favourites. But yes, Cosmos, good book.

I think Neil deGrasse Tyson and the remake of Cosmos is also good. When we show kids in schools, it is well done. He’s a good communicator. It is graphic in that sense. Every time I have an interview. I am asked a favourite something. I am not that person who has a favourite colour, favourite this, favourite that. I need to work on that.

Jacobsen: Thank you much for your time, I appreciate the interview.

Murabana: Thank you so much, I know it is been several emails and checking and everything. It is good, getting interviewed by someone in Canada. Thank you for the persistence and for giving me an audience.

Jacobsen: You’re welcome.

Murabana: So, have a good day.

11. Jacobsen: Okay, thank you much for your time, I appreciate all the good work.

Murabana: Thanks, bye, bye.

Jacobsen: Bye.

References

  1. Travelling Telescope. (2018). Travelling Telescope. Retrieved from http://www.travellingtelescope.co.uk/.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Astronomer; Founder, Travelling Telescope; Rotarian.

[2] Individual Publication Date: September 8, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-four; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part Four) [Online].September 2018; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-four.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, September 8). An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part Four). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-four.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part Four). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, September. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-four>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-four.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (September 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-four.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part Four)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-four>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part Four)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-four.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):September. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-four>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part Four) [Internet]. (2018, September; 18(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-four.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Leave a Comment
2018-09-08

An Interview with Ismail Hamaamin Hamalaw

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 1.A, Idea: The Kurds (Part One)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: Indigenous Middle East

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: September 8, 2018

Issue Publication Date: TBD

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,512

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Ismail Hamaamin Hamalaw is a Manager of Culture Project. He discusses: religion and upbringing; ethics in the world; the forces of war; life in Germany and disappoints in life; the Culture Project and the Kurdish community; and final feelings and thoughts.

Keywords: Culture Project, Islam, Ismail Hamaamin Hamalaw, Kurdish, Kurds, politics, religion.

An Interview with Ismail Hamaamin Hamalaw: Manager, Culture Project[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

*Originally published in Culture Project.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: How did you grow up? Was religion a big part of life? How did you come to find the non-religious community?

Ismail Hamaamin Religion was at the beginning an important part of my life, because my father sent me to Quran – school when I was five years old. Before that time, he taught me the simple version of the Quran through memorizing some verses, so I learnt some Arabic before I went to primary school. 

I am Kurdish. For most Kurdish people, Arabic is the language of evil foreigners who came with their tanks and military bases into the middle of our cities. Of course, that was a general picture of who was representing an Arabic language in the Kurdish collective conscience.

I want you to remember that from the creation of Iraq after World War I in 1921 until now; Arabic language in the Kurdish collective memory is a language which represents not only Islam but also occupation and Arabization, and of course the language of genocide.

During my primary school time and even in the summer holiday, I learned the Quran, because my father wanted that. I saw all my friends playing in our ghetto, but I had to go to a special summer school for Quran and Arabic.

In the Summer of 1977, I was awarded a special Quran from the head of the “Big Mosque” in my city, Sulaymania. My father was proud of me. I remember he was so happy. He kept this Quran until his death.

From that time, I hated all religions, because the Mullahs who were teaching us Quran and Arabic, were brutal and harsh and they beat us because of a small mistake. Their method and communication skills were another side of barbarism.

As a child in primary school, I looked around me; I saw only killing and fear of those who speak Arabic, even when I was able to understand the verses of Quran in Arabic. I realized where all this violence came from.

There are more than 68 verses that talk about killing, burning, cutting of bodies of the people who do not want to convert to Islam. Many verses which legitimises rape and slavery. Those verses were horrible for us as a child, so we learned not to love God but to be afraid of him.

This fear for me was related with what happened on the ground because I saw what the God of Arabic language did to us. I saw one of our people, a man in 1975, naked and  he was bleeding from his entire body.

His body was tied to the tank, so they were stalking his body and they dragged his body on the streets, so that all the people in our street could see it.  The Iraqi army was punishing our people publicly to show us what would happen if we joined a Kurdish revolution in 1975. The Arabic language was present in my life through cruel Mullahs and soldiers, so that was the general picture.

In my childhood and until my teenage years, I was angry with my father for sending me to Quran school, but after many years I thanked my father for sending me to Quran school to learn Arabic, because there was an Arabization around and the process of Arabization was going one more step.

But the positive point in my story is, I could read and translate the Arabic cartoon magazine for my school mates; nobody wanted to fight with me or come across me because they would lose their position in our reading group. There wasn’t any cartoon magazine in Kurdish for us at that time.

But after 1978, the Iraqi government repelled the Kurdish language from the teaching programme: geography, biology, and so on, in the 1980’s under the pressure of demonstration in all Kurdish cities, the Kurdish language returned to the school programme, but there were very bad translations.

Let me remind you that after the division of Kurdistan each part was forced to live with Iraq, Syria as a new state, and so on; these happened after World War I.

All that happened after the Sykes–Picot Agreement in which we as Kurds were forced to be part of Iraq and Syria. Indeed, after the Sykes–Picot Agreement, which was officially known as the Asia Minor Agreement and was a secret 1916 agreement between the United Kingdom and France, our lives as Kurds were always forcible and bitter.

Of course, through Arabic translation, I discovered French and English literature. The cynical thing is that Arabic language also helped me to get out of Mosque and all religions.

If you don’t understand Arabic, you cannot recognize every detail in the Quran, so you will be blind like most non-Arabic speakers who cannot search for truth in Quran and in the history of Islam.

In 1980, I left Islam through the joint Marxist-Leninist Party of Kurdistan. Of course, it was difficult for my father in 1981 to hear from the parents of my friends that I am supporting the Marxist-Leninist groups.

Some of them were in the mountains fighting against the Baathist regime of Saddam and the underground organization was there in all cities in Kurdistan. The 80s was the period of revolutionary dreamers and the entire world was divided into two parts, or two fronts: one follows the capitalism of the West and another who supported socialism.

This wave grew from the 1968 revolution in Europe and had a deep influence on Middle East intellectualism in the 70s. It became a model and lifestyle of young people until the end of the 80s. I was one of those dreamers – a romantic, a middle-class revolutionary who dreamed of getting rid of mosques and churches and beginning a new life without god.

I remember I started to read Bertolt Brecht, Maxim Gorky, Lenin, Marx, Mao Tse Tung…etc. Of course, all those books were in Arabic but forbidden. If the Saddam regime’s secret police knew that you have such books, they put you in secret jail.

The house of God turned into the house of the enemy. Our community was accepting our Marxism-Leninism because we were defending Kurdistan against the Iraqi government. At that time, my father was sad because he noticed that I left the mosque.

2. Jacobsen: How do you view the world now? What seems best to explain the world in theory and practice? What ethic, for action in the world with others, seems to make the most sense to you?

Ismail Hamaamin: Ok, I am not quite certain I can give you a satisfactory answer, because I am working on issues like morality and ethics through the terms of In Der Welt Sein ( Being In The World).

Of course, from two points of view, I am trying to understand this world. Once from my entire 26-year life’s experiences under the dictatorship of Saddam regime in Iraq and another from my 25 years life’s experiences in Europe, and how I was subjected to different experiences, and faced different types of meaning of the world through experiencing two models of livelihood, the two different of modus vivendi.

Everything I wrote; novel, poems, essay, political articles, etc., are a kind of trying to understand myself as homo sapiens.  I use a word “homo sapiens” in terms of surviving a phase of my life, but also for another phase of developing myself from surviving homo sapiens to a cultivated creature, or a modern human being. I prefer the word “animalization” instead of the word “cultivation.”

The first thing about life is that I understand it under surviving; it is to keep safe as a physical creature, so everyone tries to keep their body and head safe. I remember our parents taught us that walls and trees have ears!

That means, that you do not dare to speak freely what you think, because there is someone who will report you and put you and your family in a horrible prison. I grew up with this art of living as homo sapiens who always lives under threat.

War lets us understand the meaning of the world better than someone who didn’t experience it. For example, when I moved to Germany, it was quite unfathomable for me to see people on this earth that don’t know even where Kurdistan or Iraq is? They don’t know what we are talking about?

Or they have no idea about all those killings, wars, genocide, around the world. I started to think about the morality of the world, but not only through philosophical ideas and essays, but through literature.  To discuss this problem I wrote my novel, “Over The Frontiers, Flapping Through The Lunar Forests.”

I wrote it in the first-person narrator voice because there wasn’t any chance to write in third person narrator for me. The story was about Kurdish intellectuals in Ukraine who tried to cross the border illegally to Europe.

The protagonist faced the collapse of morality where he left and there is another collapse where he lives, so he discovered that the question of the morality of the world is like to be squeezing the homo sapiens between different cynical systems of the world.

The cynical reason is the question of morality behind all systems who rule this world. That is what my protagonist tried to understand. What are the differences between here and there?

I tried to explain morality through the term “surviving,” so I used the term homo sapiens instead of human being. We are still homo sapiens in terms of evolution like the ancients before us, so we try to survive; for this reason, we change our values according to our survival strategy.

I reckon that morality is a cynical process that we need to legalise our unsuccessful development to be part of the environment. Because until today’s time, we didn’t even try to move to be a part of nature to begin animalizing ourselves.

What I am trying exactly to say is that, we failed to animalize ourselves in the full meaning of animals as part of nature and as part of the globe; although, we pretend to be globalists or to live in a global system, but our surviving art of life is against our globe.

I see the cynical reason of the world through the hypocrisy of the term ‘morality.’ The hypocrisy is like that, for example, we are as modern human beings think – that we are enlightened with self-confidence – but, we live in false enlightened self-confidence.

We are a product of the modern world consuming more than we need, occupying more territories than we need for our entire life.

We think that we are a spark of the spectrum of enlightenment because we are living according to the Enlightenment’s modus vivendi, so we think that we are for humanity and solidarity and we love dogs and rabbits and trees, and we are fighting for a greener globe, but, we don’t care about our factories which are producing millions of weapons, barrels of chimerical powder.

We don’t care about our governments. We don’t care that they allowed arms manufacturers to sell the poison to a regime like the Saddam regime in the 80s. They tested it on the Kurdish population to see how it works. In terms of rationality, it was a successful weapon which killed in the year 1988   more then 5000 people in one night in only five minutes!

That was a good sell for everyone in the West! We are careless even about what happened to our neighbors, so we think that we are vegetarian, but we think like a carnivore.

To explain my view about the morality of the world and animalization, for example, look at the animals, bugs, birds, they are a part of nature and they don’t consume more than they need.

They don’t occupy more terrarium that they don’t need, so they are a part of developing of world and ecosystem of the globe, but we are as homo sapiens as modern’s creature are a hindrance to keep this globe green and we are hindrance of surviving our globes in the cosmos.

3. Jacobsen: Regarding the Kurdish community, the continual onslaught of war, murder, and repression continue right into the present from internal oppressors and external state actors. How have these forces and influences affected you?

Hamaamin I grew up in an abnormal situation. For this reason, I avoid any kind of uniformed person subconsciously.  My unconscious makes me believe that those uniformed men and women are there to take me to somewhere and make me disappear like a magician.

I know it is not real, but it is reflected in my behaviour, so I don’t argue with police in airports. I see some people do that. I will carry all my documents with me to avoid any kind of conflict.

For example, in 1994, the first three months when I arrived in Kiev, I rented a very nice flat. I had money and a visa for three months, and so there was nothing to worry about, especially since I was far away from the civil war in Kurdistan.

After one month of hiding myself from police in Istanbul, because my visa was expired, I paid police a $300 bribe. I bribed them to let me go to my hotel until I got a new visa. If they deported me to the Iraqi border, I would be a thirty-year-old corpse somewhere without a grave now. At least, I made it to Ukraine with a legal visa.

When I arrived Kiev, I said to myself, “At last, all those years are behind me.” I started to enjoy a new period of my life. The crazy city after the Soviet Union collapsed and the new craziness was everywhere. Everyone was dreaming of a new life after the Soviet Union, but they didn’t know what kind of life.

It was for me, as a novelist, like being in a Dionysian temple: vodka, dancing, sex, all that, even my physiognomy has extremely changed.  Regardless, I dreamt often that I was captured by Iraqi special forces and  they were about to shoot me. That was the beginning, for several years, of dreaming the same dream.

However, I studied psychology. I knew this was trauma. I knew how I could deal with it. Some nights, I dreamt that I am lying somewhere. I was dying. You cannot imagine my happiness when I was awoken from that horrible dream!

Even some time after all those years, when the dream was waking me, I started to get up from my bed, immediately and I looked around in my flat, only to be assured that I am in my flat in Germany.  I was happy to be alive, so I focused on the positive to get rid of my past in Iraq.

I am telling you that to give you a smooth picture of the influence of all these years of war. The killing of thousands of our people in Kurdistan. One time a friend of mine told me, “You are lucky because you can write about yourself, but I don’t know how I can get rid of my past.” Of course, we are lucky because we survived many wars and revolutions in Kurdistan.

We are in Europe. But what about the people in Kurdistan? They don’t have even time to look back at their past, because the present is worse than their past. During war you don’t think too much, you will be like homo sapiens who want to survive.

We are as Kurds have the feeling like what called “homo sacer” who were banned from Roman Empire.  “Homo sacer” may be killed by anybody without the killer being afraid to be judged! Your blood is enjoyable for everyone who enjoyed killing you, so the homo sacer fights for his bare life.

We are as a Kurd  until today this homo sacer and everyone, the world  watches  Turkey, Iran, and Iraq and how they kill our people. Nobody care about us; we are not this imaginary figure of Giorgio Agamben’s theory about homo sacer in ancient time. The fact is, we are here and real on the ground every single day!

4. Jacobsen: How was your life in Germany? Were there any major disappointments in your life?

Hamaamin: The strange thing about the experience of war is that you enjoy every second of your life – even the death is enjoyable. It will be a rest and peace from all those memories and ideas of the past. After 18 years in Germany, I left all that behind me and went back to Kurdistan.

I lost my children in Germany. I say I lost them because I couldn’t be a proper father and be with them every day and to give them a good night kiss. It was the time I divorced from my first wife.

It was the hardest time of my life, even  hareder than  the time of Saddam Hussein’s regime of terror, when I was politically active against the dictatorship. My children were my last homeland in this life and I lost them.

At the same time, I lost my beloved mother. I lost what I built in 18 years. My world as a Kurdish writer in exile didn’t match with the way of life with what my first Kurdish wife wanted to have. I left Germany and I started to find a new job as director of a Kurdish magazine.

5. Jacobsen: How do you hope the Kurdish community comes together? How might Culture Project, as an incubator and repository of Kurdish values and productions, help with this movement of memorializing and rebuilding the culture of the Kurds?

Hamaamin: We thought about Culture Project as a way to break the usual image of Kurds as victims or as a fighter or worse – as political figures! Even the Kurdish publication in English is gathering around political issues, but we have very nice art, music, literature, feminism, activism.

So, we decided to establish Culture Project in diaspora and in Kurdistan. Critical thinking, gender, and literature is a new way for new awareness out of the old clichés of the traditional politics of Kurdish political parties who until now belong to tribes’ or clans’ tradition and Islamic values, more than the value of gender equality and human rights.

We cannot be liberated without a new alternative culture, so we are trying to rebuild the culture according to the new values.

6. Jacobsen: Any final thoughts or feelings in conclusion?

Hamaamin: I appreciate your time and your patience with me.

7. Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Ismail.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Manager, Culture Project.

[2] Individual Publication Date: September 8, 2018: www.in-sightjournal.com/hamalaw.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Ismail Hamaamin Hamalaw [Online].September 2018; 1(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/hamalaw.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, September 8). An Interview with Ismail Hamaamin Hamalaw. Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/hamalaw.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Ismail Hamaamin Hamalaw.  Indigenous Middle East. 1.A, September. 2018. <www.in-sightjournal.com/hamalaw>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Ismail Hamaamin Hamalaw.” Indigenous Middle East. 1.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/hamalaw.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Ismail Hamaamin Hamalaw.” Indigenous Middle East. 1.A (September 2018). www.in-sightjournal.com/hamalaw.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Ismail Hamaamin Hamalaw‘, Indigenous Middle East, vol. 1.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/hamalaw>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Ismail Hamaamin Hamalaw‘, Indigenous Middle East, vol. 1.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/hamalaw.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Ismail Hamaamin Hamalaw.” Indigenous Middle East 1.A (2018):September. 2018. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/hamalaw>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Ismail Hamaamin Hamalaw [Internet]. (2018, September; 1(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/hamalaw.

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Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

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© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Indigenous Middle East 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and Indigenous Middle East with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-09-01

An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Two)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: September 1, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,391

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Monika Orski is the Ordförande/Chairman, Mensa Sverige/Mensa Sweden. She discusses: books by Orski and their contents; the reason for the topics in the texts; membership of Mensa Sweden; demographics; Mensa groups associated with Mensa Sweden; provisions of Mensa Sweden for its members; average standard deviation IQ score of the membership; the relationship between Mensa at 2-sigma and other high-IQ groups at 3-sigma and 4-sigma; the identification, education, and utilization of the young gifted and talented population; programs in the advanced industrial economies; some informal education and practical life skills the gifted and talent should acquire if they wish to pursue a life in writing; and some prominent cases of when a known highly gifted person went wrong, e.g. antisocial, violent, and so on.

Keywords: chairman, Mensa Sverige, Mensa Sweden, Monika Orski, Ordförande.

An Interview with Monika Orski: Ordförande/Chairman, Mensa Sverige/Mensa Sweden (Part Two)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What have been the books written by you? What topics tend to be the focus for you?

Monika Orski: In this area, I am a typical mensan, in that my activity is diverse. This far I have published three books, each of them very different from the others.

My first book, in 2007, is an introduction to open source software. There was no such book in Swedish, and I saw a need for it, as part of my computer systems related consulting work.

The second book, in 2011, is a young adults novel. It tells a story of friendship, incipient romantic interests, and mental illness. When it was published, I often got the question whether it’s autobiographic. It is not.

The third and most recent book is a collection of short stories, published in 2017 but written over many years. The short stories are partially intertwined, with most of the main characters part of a Jewish family in Stockholm, Warsaw and Jerusalem. Again, I often get the question if it’s autobiographic. It is not, but of course I have used settings I am familiar with, and in part processed stories I have heard.

If things turn out according to plan, there will be a fourth book published next year, 2019. This time around I go back to nonfiction, for a book on leadership of the highly gifted, largely based on my Mensa experience.

2. Jacobsen: Also, why those topics for the texts?

Orski: Well, they are all topics that interest me. I always write something or other. Some texts reach publication, others do not. Writing is a hobby I find rewarding in itself, even when it does not produce tangible results.

I also look to what is currently topical in Swedish literature, as for the young adults book, and of course to what I know about, as in the nonfiction. All in all, there are many factors shaping the choice of topics, and I am aware that I am probably unaware of half of them. Like most writers, I would presume.

3. Jacobsen: Let us talk about the different functions and facets of Mensa Sweden: how many members? 

Orski: Around 7,000 members, and the number increases every year. With Sweden’s circa 10 million population, we are the national Mensa with the highest number of members per million inhabitants, which we are very proud of.

I also find it noteworthy that the only other national Mensa at a similar level of members per million is Mensa Finland. Since many years, we have a friendly competition with our neighbours for this first place. There are larger national groups, of course, but no other is even near the same numbers per million.

4. Jacobsen: What demographics remain a part of Mensa Sweden? 

Orski: Well, we do not really keep statistics of demographics regarding anything but age and gender. The average age of Swedish mensans is 36. We have around 25 % women, 74% men, 1% others / unknown gender.

As a side note, the success rate of candidates who take the admission test is slightly higher for women than for men. Not a large difference, but visible. Thus, if we could only persuade as many women as men to take the admission test, the gender balance would even out with time.

5. Jacobsen: What other Mensa groups frequently associated with Mensa Sweden?

Orski: All the national Mensa groups, currently around 50 of them, are associated under the realm of Mensa International. But there are also regional cooperations, and we are very happy about the close cooperation we have between the Nordics, i.e. the national Mensas of Denmark, Finland, Norway and Sweden.

6. Jacobsen: What does Mensa Sweden provide for its members?

Orski: Mensa is member-driven, and almost all work within the organization is done by volunteers. This means the most important service we provide are ways to meet other members, and decide what to do together. There are local meetings spread around Sweden, organized by members who simply announce a pub meeting, or book a lecturer and a room for the lecture, etc.

There are, of course, larger meetings organized by groups of volunteers and supervised by elected Mensa officers on the board. There is also a magazine published 8 times a year, by volunteer editors and with contributions from members.

Then there is the opportunity to help out as a volunteer in the Gifted Children Program I mentioned before, and many members see this as a key function. It is a very tangible way to contribute to one of the three stated purposes of Mensa: to identify and foster human intelligence for the benefit of humanity, to encourage research in the nature, characteristics and uses of intelligence, and to promote stimulating intellectual and social opportunities for its members.

8. Jacobsen: What is the average standard deviation IQ score of the members?

Orski: The criteria to join Mensa is the same all over the world, to score among the highest 2% on a supervised intelligence test.

We prefer the use of percentile to IQ scores. To still answer the question about scores: Intelligence is normally distributed. Assuming a mean of 100 and a standard deviation of 15, a passing Mensa score is 131 or above.

9. Jacobsen: What is the relationship between Mensa at 2-sigma and other high-IQ groups at 3-sigma and 4-sigma?

Orski: In short, none. Mensa is by far the most well-established high-IQ group, and has no direct relationship to any other group.

Of course, there are members who also join other groups, like Intertel (1%) or Triple Nine (0.1%) or ISPE (0.1%). In my experience, those who do usually stay in Mensa too, and are more likely to continue their Mensa membership than members of any of the others.

10. Jacobsen: There seems to be a widespread loss of the gifted and talent for the benefit of society and the fulfillment and meaning, in their own lives. How would you recommend Sweden move forward in the identification, education, and utilization of the young gifted and talented population?

Orski: I’m not at all sure there is such a widespread loss. Of course, most of the gifted people I come across are members of Mensa, which means they are in the relatively small group that wants to join a high-IQ society. Among them, far from everyone has any sort of visibly intellectual career, but that doesn’t imply they cannot be happy with their life and benefit society.

That said, I still think that much can be gained if gifted children are identified and given an education proper to their needs. If schools learn to identify them early, they can be taught in slightly different ways, to cater to their intellectual conditions and needs. Most important, they should not be held back. It can make a significant difference just to allow a child to sit quietly and read about something s/he is interested in, instead of having to explicitly wait for their classmates to accomplish a task they themselves were able to do in a few minutes. Not only does it let them do something meaningful, it also gives them a feeling of being rewarded for having done the standard tasks, instead of being punished for completing them faster than others.

11. Jacobsen: What programs exist in advanced industrial economies for the gifted and talented that could easily be implemented in Sweden? 

Orski: There are probably many good programs I am not aware of. Then, every educational system has its problems. However, I think the schooling systems of France and Finland would probably be interesting to look to for hints, as both tend to produce good results.

12. Jacobsen: What gifted and talented programs would take the longest to establish in Sweden but would have the greatest long-term impact on the intellectual flourishing of the country?

Orski: In my view, the greatest long-term positive impact would be produced by a shift of focus in university education. Today, it is mostly about training students for specific professions. We have university education for teachers, psychologists, engineers etc – but to gain a broad education that spans over several subjects is hard, not in terms of the actual learning process but in terms of being able to put such an education together. The system is designed to streamline student throughput, not to let them explore several possible talents.

Gifted young people should be able to combine subjects more easily. If they are allowed to find new combinations, and follow their usual multiple talents, some of them will be eminent in fields that do not even exist yet. But that takes a shift in education as a whole, and especially a shift that would allow university students to still pursue a specific field, but also let them create new combinations for learning.

Also, there remains the basic imperative never to punish gifted youth for being gifted. It is not as easy as it sounds, as every educational system has to be mostly adapted for the average, for practical reasons. However, I think much can be accomplished by the general approach that no one should be held back.

13. Jacobsen: What are some informal education and practical life skills the gifted and talent should acquire if they wish to pursue a life in writing?

I will start with the things everyone who wants to pursue a life in writing should do: Read, read, write, read, write and then read some more. You need to be truly rooted in your language, you need to know about other literature in your field, and you also need to read classics to be able to relate to current writing, including your own. If you do not enjoy reading, writing is not the path for you. Also, writing is a craft. It takes practice.

The next thing is, remember that very few writers can actually live off their writing. This is especially true for all of us who work in small linguistic regions. Here, the gifted usually have an advantage. Most highly gifted people have multiple talents, and thus it is easier to pursue a “daytime job”, or another parallel career, as well as being a writer.

Another important practical thing is to find peers to exchange text analysis. Find other writers at about your own level, and form a group that will share text and help each other by criticism. It is important that you should not be in the habit of praise each other’s texts, but actually criticize. That is the way to learn, and also learn to pay more attention to the strengths and weaknesses of the text before you. This group should, ideally, contain writers from different walks of life and with different intellectual skills.

14. Jacobsen: What are some prominent cases of when a known highly gifted person went wrong, e.g. antisocial, violent, and so on?

Orski: My Internet search is no better than that of anybody else… It has been widely published that the “Unabomber” Ted Kaczynski is probably highly gifted. The same things are said about another terrorist, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. Of course, I have no way to corroborate these claims.

High intelligence is no guarantee against mental illness. Neither is it a guarantee for high morals. Unfortunately, there is no sign that the highly intelligent don’t go wrong about as often – or as seldom – as those of average intelligence.

References

  1. Mensa International. (2018). Mensa Sweden. Retrieved from https://www.mensa.org/country/sweden.
  2. Mensa Sverige. (2018). Mensa Sverige. Retrieved from https://www.mensa.se/.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Ordförande/Chairman, Mensa Sverige/Mensa Sweden.

[2] Individual Publication Date: September 1, 2018: www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-two; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Two) [Online].September 2018; 18(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-two.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, September 1). An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Two). Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-two.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, September. 2018. <www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-two>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-two.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (September 2018). www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-two.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-two>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-two.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):September. 2018. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-two>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Monika Orski (Part Two) [Internet]. (2018, September; 18(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-two.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

3 Comments
2018-09-01

An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part Three)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 18.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Fourteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: September 1, 2018

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,889

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Susan Murabana is an Astronomer and Rotarian, and Founder of the Travelling Telescope. She discusses: assistance to women and girls into the STEM disciplines; men, women, and childcare; single-parent households; Canadian society; and other topics.

Keywords: astronomer, Rotarian, Susan Murabana, Travelling Telescope.

Interview with Susan Murabana: Astronomer and Rotarian, and Founder, Travelling Telescope (Part Three)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: We live in an unprecedented time by my estimation. I consider it a not well-appreciated fact that we have the best-educated population of women in human history, globally. It is acknowledged, but not as large as it should.

At the same time, depending upon the country, the culture and so on, there are certain restrictions that are put on women in terms of their ability to get an education, let alone science education, and these are fundamental human rights and women’s rights.

What are things that you observe that prevent women from getting involved in STEM, or STEAM if we involve arts, and what are ways we can help girls and women fulfill their dreams and their potential by becoming more involved?

Murabana: I think what blocks more women, especially in rural Kenya is 1) peer pressure 2) sometimes it is our parents who feel that it is more important to look after the boy than the girl and some of them feel that some careers are traditionally better for women, particularly teaching, and some are not.

So, I would say family, especially parents in shaping girls to get into science or not and the pressure. It could be from peers or it could be from society. Society has pressure towards that. Sometimes, it is also the fact that women belong to the house. Women are supposed to be in the home, traditionally.

There is pressure to settle and have family at a certain age. Friends and neighbours and aunties and uncles questioning why you’re not married at 25. I think one important thing is to have role models. I can see that even in Kenya we are getting more women as pilots, for example.

Or in IT coming up with the telescope projects and having them going back to their communities and working with girls and encouraging them that they could be in careers that they choose to be in. Science is one of the most evolving things. Nothing stays the same in it.

For me, personally, by having my son, I felt that I lost so much in terms of what I was doing in outreach in astronomy. That you must go through and it becomes difficult. Having role models, having parents who get it and encourage their kids helps.

Trying to give the girls or boys, giving them that confidence to not second guess themselves and that stems mostly from the house. The family and everything, it is important. I think that we should try when we can to have the parents involved.

Tomorrow, we’ll be going on a trip with school kids and they will have their parents with them and they will do everything with them and look through the telescope at the night sky and have that setting.

But the parents can connect to the science by looking up at the sky, having their kids see that and see them appreciate that science is important and vice versa.

2. Jacobsen: As you noted, you had a supportive family yourself with 6 siblings. Having the family encourage them, having a family environment that supports that, outside of the family for girls and women, how can men get involved in that effort too?

In some context that you have described, there may be circumstances where in childcare and healthcare and home care, men do not get involved and are not expected to get involved and yet if they did, it would be a more balanced time budget and energy budget within the family.

Murabana: Yes, I think so too. Personally, I have 4 brothers and 2 sisters. As we grew up, our parents did not provide rules according to gender. My brothers could cook, and I could fix the dough [Laughing]. I love my dad. At some point, he would say, “Fix the dough.” I had big brothers who could do it.

I guess my point was having that, like the man being part of it, having fathers as role models to their daughters or allowing their daughters to explore. And brothers, it is important. It is sad to think because again I am talking about women being role models but also girls having a voice. Sometimes when you talk about girls, it is also we do not want to empower them so much that boys are left out. It could happen.

It sometimes does happen, and they get involved in other things that are destructive. It is a collective responsibility and obviously, I feel from working with schools, going to an all-girls school and doing an astronomy project at an all-boys school. That boys want to build and things like that.

It is also trying to encourage girls that they can do it if they want to. It is important in that sense. I do not think there is anything meant for any gender or only for boys. I have nieces and I think science is something for everyone.

I have also seen girls shy away and get intimidated by boys. Having confidence is so key for them to say what they want to do. Also, teachers, like getting teachers as involved as possible. We have programs. We always invite the teachers on board, we are always trying to get their opinion.

So, I feel that the people, kids, relate to it at their age and it is a culture that is normally, well confidence is built when they are young basically. The people they relate to most are obviously their parents and their siblings, but also their teachers. I guess it is difficult. How is it in Canada if I may ask?

3. Jacobsen: What I am probably thinking is because Canada, the United States, Australia, New Zealand, and the United Kingdom are the top 5 developed countries in terms of single motherhood rate. Of the single parents, 80+ to 90+ plus percent are single mothers.

When I interviewed the president of the university, he was an interim president during the interview, and I brought that to his attention, he thought I was on to something. We probably tapped a need of single mothers signing up for online universities because it is convenient for time, which is tight being a single parent.

Two hands instead of four, one income usually lower rather than two. So, in terms of the education at the university level, there are more women than men. I do you recall there is a Stanford psychologist called Philip Zimbardo. He was known for the Stanford Prison Experiment.

Basically, he put a bunch of college students and made one group prisoners, another group security, like the guards and then he was the guy that runs the prison, the warden. It was before they had more rigorous experimental ethics in psychology.

It is a controversial study. People started believing they were prisoners and guards. There was abuse, severe abuse. Before 2 weeks were up, within a couple of days, people took on the role when they had it.

Anyway, he’s been researching young men, recently. He looked at how a lot of technological excessive use leads to decreases in boys’ and men’s educational outcomes.

In that if you’re not spending time socializing, you’re not developing the little micro, non-verbal stuff that is required for social interaction. In addition, it takes away time from study.

By the time Jane McGonigal stated, a video game researcher stated, by the time a young man is 21, the average man has spent about 10,000 hours playing video games. The average time it takes to get a bachelor’s degree is 4,800 hours.

In that time, they could have gotten 2 bachelor’s degrees. In addition, they are losing out on socialization. What we are seeing is what you pointed about before as a hypothetical about potentially leaving out boys, there are the structural blockages.

The so-called glass ceiling for women at the high end. At the low end now, the situation is even more complicated because it is not structural. There has been no historical structure to prevent men from getting into positions of power for most of history.

What it is, is motivational, the technology, in addition to pornography, apparently, is taking away traditional motivations for boys and men to become involved in education.

So, like at my university, which is two thirds women, we are seeing a higher proportion of women than men entering education. Of course, if you move the ticker percent for women up 1, then that automatically, since there are only two variables in the scale, that takes away a percent for men.

So, every percent difference is a 2 percent difference. Where if you have 55 percent women, it is not 5 percent more; it is 10 percent difference. That can translate into millions and millions of boys and young men not doing well in school or not entering and succeeding in university.

So, it is on the low end in terms of chronological age. Boys and young men are not entering school as much, doing worse in terms of awards and GPA and are graduating at lower rates on all levels, graduate and undergraduate schools.

Women when they graduate, still tend to get lower pay and they do not tend to move up as high. The only exception to that rule is women that are single at about 30 in city centers in places like the United States, New York and Los Angeles and San Francisco and Seattle. All these kinds of places. They make 8% more than young men on average in the same situation.

So, if they do not get married and have children, they are golden. But for women who do want that, and for many men who still want those things, then they are going to be docked for that professionally. So, it is a hard question.

But the general answer, that I can tell, is that lower end chronologically, boys and young men: motivational issues. Higher end chronologically, latter years of young women and moving into middle ages, it is structural as it has been, traditionally called “patriarchal structures.”

Structures that tend to lean more towards men coming to power. It is motivational versus structural by my analysis. That’s how it seems to be. Not only Canada, but at least in developed nations in general.

Murabana: We work with university students who are doing degrees. The ratio of women, we have few girls. I think of the 10 students we are working with, only 2 are women. Yes, so, I do not know what the statistics are for getting degrees in everything, but in the sciences and astronomy; there is many more men than women.

We must carry the telescope, we must carry the heavy materials. I do not think those are the things most girls want to do. It is physical as well. We need to, and I need to encourage more girls to get into it. We do not have them. We hope by going to schools and going to these young ladies hopefully we’ll encourage more girls. We want to show them the cool stuff.

One of the things we try to stress in schools is that astronomy is the science of sciences. You have biologists, you have chemists, you have geologists, engineers, computer science, you have all these different people contributing.

That opens kids minds and they think back to it because we showed them the programs we can use. The planetarium system software system we use was developed by a computer programmer and the space company that goes to space has all these different developments and are controlled by all these different people.

Then you also talk about astrophotography and all these different elements to get the kids to see the different things. We also try to encourage the students we work with from the university to not be fixed in terms of what they can contribute, but to also think of other skills they have or other interests they have by demonstrating that.

It is a bit complicated or a bit difficult in terms of trying to create a culture of people who appreciate astronomy. It is exciting the university now has a degree, which is new. Trying to get more girls into it is difficult, some of the students at the university are telling us how their parents did not get what they are going to study and why they were going to study it and their parents were against it. It is difficult in that sense.

We realize we have a lot of work because our outreach isn’t to school kids. It is to educate everyone. There is a huge number of different people we need to educate. At the same time, when we have events for the public, there is a lot of interest. So, many people who say they want to experience looking through the telescope. It is exciting to see.

Over the 10 years I have been involved in astronomy to see where we’ve reached and where we’ve come from as a country and as a society, I think there is so much potential. Astronomy is such a nice science because it has all these other elements. It sparks curiosity and everything, but collaborations and inventions and ideas of things like that. It makes it so cool, especially for a young mind.

Then I also do not think science is for only the young. We recently went to a rural community and invited the community to come and look through the telescope, which was during the super moon.

And the whole time, the rainmaker can look at different planets, and let’s call them stars, and it is nice to hear the stories that there is still the culture of looking up at the sky with different communities. That affects how they live and it is cool. Elderly people and that traditional knowledge is also still interesting.

4. Jacobsen: What other topics would be of interest to people? We’ve covered a lot of territory.

Murabana: Topics of interest are documented dark matter. The topics for me that I find alluring are whether we are alone and the basics like looking at Saturn and trying to understand that planet and Jupiter and Europa.

Is life only found on planets or could it be found on moons? I am finding that people watch Nat Geo or the science channel and learn so much and read so much and many young kids ask you about black holes and things like that because they read about it or have seen it and sometimes they ask about aliens somewhere. The Internet isn’t always true, so you must be careful about what you read.

Jacobsen: Critical thinking skills.

Murabana: We always get these interesting questions. It is always fun to see what they are thinking of. Topics of whether we are alone is interesting.

References

  1. Travelling Telescope. (2018). Travelling Telescope. Retrieved from http://www.travellingtelescope.co.uk/.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Astronomer; Founder, Travelling Telescope; Rotarian.

[2] Individual Publication Date: September 1, 2018: www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-three; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2019: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part Three) [Online].September 2018; 18(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-three.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, September 1). An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part Three). Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-three.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part Three). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A, September. 2018. <www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-three>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-three.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 18.A (September 2018). www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-three.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-three>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 18.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-three.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 18.A (2018):September. 2018. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-three>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part Three) [Internet]. (2018, September; 18(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-three.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-08-22

An Interview with Monika Orski (Part One)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 17.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Thirteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: August 22, 2018

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,591

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Monika Orski is the Ordförande/Chairwoman, Mensa Sverige/Mensa Sweden. She discusses: family background; development in early life; learning of giftedness; nurturance of giftedness; investment in the gifted and talented; families and friends and guidance for the gifted, and a myth about gifted peoples’ social skills; precision in the definition of Western Europe and the provisions for gifted peoples in it; geniuses in the more precisely defined geography of “Western Europe”; high-IQ as never being a detriment; and feeling connection with one’s cultural heritage. 

Keywords: Chairwoman, Mensa Sverige, Mensa Sweden, Monika Orski, Ordförande.

An Interview with Monika Orski: Ordförande/Chairman, Mensa Sverige/Mensa Sweden (Part One)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: In terms of geography, culture, language, and religion/irreligion, what is personal family background?

Monika Orski: I was born and raised in Stockholm, Sweden. My parents had immigrated from Poland just over a year before my birth, the effect of an antisemitic campaign that resulted in many Polish Jews emigrating, among them a few thousand to Sweden. Thus, I’m first generation Swedish. Or, in the parlance of official language as well as large part of the public view, second-generation immigrant.

The Jewish inheritance in my family is a matter of culture and ethnicity, not a religious one. I was not brought up to care about any religion at all. Which, by the way, fits well into the general, relatively secular Swedish culture.

As for language, my native Swedish has always been supplemented with the Polish that remained the everyday language for family life in my childhood, and that my parents still use when we talk. Then, I was taught English and French in school. I consider this early access to multiple languages a real treasure.

2. Jacobsen: How did these multiple facets of family background feed into early life for you?

Orski: It’s all part of me, of course. Being part of a minority is a very basic experience, and in some ways defining. I never had a choice not to be visibly ”different”, and I’m sure it has shaped a certain outlook. I am, of course, as much of a consensus seeker as anyoneSwedish, but I am not afraid to stand out when needed.

Also, I am aware that family background was an important influence when I chose my field of work. I studied literature in parallel with computer engineering, but it was always clear that the serious, long-term part was to become an engineer. It had to be something that wasn’t language dependent, something that could be used more or less anywhere in the world. An element of “just in case” was always part of the equation.

Not that I ever regretted being a software engineer. Today, I have been a freelancing consultant for a long time, mostly in the area of solution architecture, and also do other things on the side. I am a writer with books published, and I offer lectures on leadership, mostly based on my experience within Mensa.

3. Jacobsen: When did giftedness become a fact of life for you, explicitly? Of course, you lived and live with it. The key, when was the high general intelligence formally measured, acknowledged, and integrated into personal identity and loved ones’ perception of you?

Orski: It was formally measured when I took a Mensa admission test at age 21. But there was no change in either personal identity or loved ones’ perception caused by this formal measure. By then, I was a student, and had been considered – and considered myself – intelligent since childhood. For better or worse.

4. Jacobsen: Was your giftedness nurtured in early life into adolescence? 

Orski: Yes and no.

I was lucky to grow up in a family where academic success was encouraged, or even expected. I guess we fit the stereotype of a Jewish family, at least in that way. Also, there were always books around, and while my parents often tried to make me spend more time outdoors, they were never opposed to my copious reading as such.

School was another matter. I was not a top-grade student, but I did well enough, while I was horribly bored by school work and had no chance to learn how to actually work to gain knowledge. Being different didn’t help the social interaction either. For quite a long time, a day without physical violence would count as a good day, and there were not that many good school days.

In class, I was often used as an unpaid teaching assistant, starting somewhere around the age 9 or 10. Then, I was a child, and only saw that this singled me out even more, and certainly didn’t help. But as an adult, I am most appalled by what those teachers did to my classmates. Imagine you are eleven and have some trouble following the class in math – and then you are supposed to be taught by a frustrated ten-year-old. Doesn’t that sound like a failsafe way to turn temporary difficulties into permanent failures? Although with time, I actually learned some pedagogical skills, mostly the hard way by trial and error.

5. Jacobsen: Why should governments and communities invest in the gifted, identification and education?

Orski: First and foremost, because every child should be allowed to explore their potential, and feel validated in doing so. Of course, it is more important to teach everyone the basic skills: read and write etc. However, if that is the only level you measure your education system by, you have already given up.

There is the individual point of view. People are not happy when they are kept back, and while adults always have at least some opportunities to counteract this themselves, children usually do not. Even more so when they know they are somehow different from those around them, and are left with only the negative consequences. Also, if you don’t learn how to work to learn things, you will probably experience a sudden change at some point, when you no longer can absorb everything without effort. If that happens before you are old enough to understand it, it will probably cause a traumatic decline of self-esteem.

There is also the society point of view. Many of the gifted will end up in regular, but qualified careers, and thus benefit society as a whole. But there is more to it. If allowed a broad education, some of those gifted children will shape future fields we do not even have names for today, and provide huge contributions. Some, of course, will choose other paths, not visibly using their intelligence in career or public life, but the community will benefit in those cases too. Overall, the number of gifted trouble makers, in schools as well as far beyond, will be less if everyone gets the chance to explore their potential. We cannot know in advance who will end up where, but we do know that either way society as a whole will benefit from investing in their education.

6. Jacobsen: How can families and friends help prevent gifted kids from a) acting arrogant and b) becoming social car crashes (with a) and b) being related, of course)?

Orski: There is a prevailing myth that intelligent people have poor social skills. In fact, research shows the contrary. There is a positive correlation between intelligence and social skills.

That said, all children have some tendencies to see themselves as the center of the world, and act accordingly. This is perfectly natural. It is true that in gifted children, an arrogance rooted in their giftedness would be a common symptom of this tendency. Like all children, they need to be taught to interact with others, and called on behavior that is not acceptable. That would include to let them know that kindness is usually more important than specific skills, as well as more important than an ability to learn quickly.

Another aspect is that all children need to have peers they will consider equals. When other gifted children are not a natural part of a child’s environment, the most valuable assistance family and friends can provide is to help them find them. This can be done via aMensa youth program, or a chess club (if they like chess), or a choir (if they like singing) or online gaming (if they like games), or some other context that brings people of similar interests and gifts together. Of course, I am personally very much in favor of the Mensapath.

7. Jacobsen: How well-established and funded is the acceptance and nurturance of the gifted and talented through the formal mechanisms of the countries in Western Europe? 

Orski: Western Europe is a very diverse area, and it’s hard to discuss it as a whole. In short, every country has it’s own educational system. Now, I’m not sure how many European countries should be included when using a term like “Western Europe”, but to provide some understanding of the diversity, remember the European Union currently has 28 members, and that not all European countries are part of the EU.

However, among the things we do have in common one comes to mind when discussing education. Tuition is financed by tax money in most European countries, including university tuition. The access to university education is subject to many things, and will again vary between countries, but no potential student needs to worry about whether their finances, or those of their parents, will allow them to pay for their education.

To narrow down to an area I do know, for a few years Sweden has a law stating that in elementary and secondary school, every pupil should be allowed to learn and develop to their potential. In practice, this is far from being the case at every school, but at least there is a general framework that is supposed to help nurture all children, including gifted children.

Among the things we are most proud of within Mensa Sweden, is the Gifted Children Program (GCP). Our GCP-volunteers offer schools a free 2-hour education on giftedness for their staff. Thus, we help not only gifted children with parents who recognize their talents and seek ways to nurture them, but also children we never meet, as their teachers are taught how to recognize them. This year, between them our 40+ volunteers give 2-3 such lectures a week.

8. Jacobsen: Western Europe produced a number of great geniuses. Who comes to mind for you? What periods of time represent the largest flowering of intellectual progress in this region of the world?

Orski: Again, I would like to start with the proviso that Western Europe as a concept is diverse and without clear delimitation.

Among those who come to mind for me are scientists Isaac Newton, Carl Linnaeus, Marie Curie and Albert Einstein; philosophers Spinoza, Voltaire, Hegel and de Beauvoir; writers Cervantes, Dante, Shakespeare, de la Fayette, Goethe, Austen, Heine, Lagerlöf, Strindberg, Ibsen … I could go on at length regarding writers.

Intellectual progress spreads over the long history of Europe. Not being particularly well versed in the history of ideas, I will however venture the guess that the age of enlightenment (17th – 18th century) represents a flowering with effects also seen in the 19th century, and that the Romantic era (late 18th – 19th century) represent a surge in arts and literature that is still relevant to these areas today.

9. Jacobsen: How can a high-IQ be a detriment in life?

Orski: High-IQ itself is never a detriment. On the contrary, high-IQ makes many things in life easier, and there is research indicating a positive correlation between intelligence and many desirable things, such as longevity and health.

However, high-IQ can have detrimental side effects. Being and feeling different always has its downsides, especially while you are very young. Even a child who is told ”you’re really gifted and that makes you different in all sorts of good ways” will only hear ”you’re different”. Those who do not know about their intelligence often feel like aliens, not being able to understand why they don’t think the way most people around them do, and they often draw the conclusion there is something wrong with them.

This is part of why the acknowledgment of high general intelligence can make a fantastic difference in an individual’s life. Suddenly they get the tools needed to understand why they feel the way they do. Even more important, they gain an understanding that helps them look for peers they can feel equal to, sometimes after half a life of feeling inferior because they perceive themselves as different.

10. Jacobsen: How can ethnic heritage provide a bulwark for confidence in life? Something of a pride or happiness in heritage and culture, and tradition, but not in the accident of birth with ethnic grouping.

Orski: I agree, to feel pride in the accident of birth with ethnic grouping would be like pride in the color of your eyes – basically meaningless and in my view inconceivable.

While I can see a point in discussing pride in heritage, I am rather reluctant to use the word pride in this context. A feeling of connection and history is a better description. The heritage of culture will always be part of every one of us, and it’s usually good to feel a connection and continuity within it. Also, such a connection can foster feelings of responsibility, and a will to do good in and for the world around us.

References

  1. Mensa International. (2018). Mensa Sweden. Retrieved from https://www.mensa.org/country/sweden.
  2. Mensa Sverige. (2018). Mensa Sverige. Retrieved from https://www.mensa.se/.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Ordförande/Chairman, Mensa Sverige/Mensa Sweden.

[2] Individual Publication Date: August 22, 2018: www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-one; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Monika Orski (Part One) [Online].August 2018; 17(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-one.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, August 22). An Interview with Monika Orski (Part One). Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-one.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Monika Orski (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A, August. 2018. <www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-one>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Monika Orski (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-one.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Monika Orski (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A (August 2018). www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-one.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Monika Orski (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-one>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Monika Orski (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-one.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Monika Orski (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 17.A (2018):August. 2018. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-one>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Monika Orski (Part One) [Internet]. (2018, August; 17(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/orski-one.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2018-08-22

An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part Two)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 17.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Thirteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: August 22, 2018

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,802

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Susan Murabana is an Astronomer and Rotarian, and Founder of the Travelling Telescope. She discusses: virtual reality in education; Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson, Carl Sagan, Bill Nye, Brian Cox, and others; dark matter and dark energy; Frank Drake and extraterrestrial life; civilizations on other planets; and favorite scientist in history.

Keywords: astronomer, Rotarian, Susan Murabana, Travelling Telescope.

Interview with Susan Murabana: Astronomer and Rotarian, and Founder, Travelling Telescope (Part Two)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: You mentioned virtual reality. You mentioned some of the products and initiatives ongoing in Kenya regarding the Travelling Telescope. Where are you hoping to expand in the future with this initiative?

Susan Murabana: We have run our project for about 3 years as the Travelling Telescope and we reached quite several kids and members of the public. We’ve gotten interested from people to come to us because right now we move, we are mobile. We are the Travelling Telescope. What we want to do soon is to build a center, a science center which we will call the Cosmic Hill where we would like to have a permanent planetarium and an observatory.

With lots of fun activities for kids to do and things like that, as well as education and scientific, we want to dedicate it to the public. Anyone who wants to come here, to be able to access it and to come and learn and enjoy the sky. And we feel that that could be so important because I do not think, if there are, there aren’t many places like that in Africa and that’s what we want to give our kids.

We want to give them access so they can grow up in a different environment. An environment that gives exposes them to different things. We do not want to build the planetarium and the telescope and stuff like that, but we also want to have applicable methods of showing how they can make our planet safer and better. Like using solar energy as our source of energy.

We call it the Cosmic Hill because it would be up on a hill. Using hydroponics, for example, to plant food or grow food. Grow fish and food and having them feed each other from their waste, stuff like that. So, we have kids come or adults, they can see some of the things we do.

But at home, or take them back to their home, we also want to have a small music center where we could also have artists, not necessarily music, but have the creative mind and the scientific thing.

Instead of calling it STEM education, call it STEAM education and get science and engineering with arts and math all together. That’s our big project. We do not have money for it, so we are hoping we can go back to the public and have it co-funded and ask the public to believe in us and help the future of Kenyans and the future of African children to support the initiative.

We want to invite schools to come over and stay for a day or a week or for families. I think we come from a place where we think, we try to do this, but parents are part of the learning process. They can see what the kids like and encourage them. We want to build that, and we are about ready to launch it.

That’s what we are trying to do. We also have the VR technology. We are trying to partner with different planetarium companies around the world to do shows and they get to see that. I believe in asking for a global place for partnerships and an exchange of ideas because we have a lot.

We also have a lot to give, a lot of cultural exchange, scientific exchange and there are some ways to encourage our kids to think of themselves as contributing to a project. And you also get to have, if you have the science center built, you want to open it to university students from around the world. We want to have exchange programs, not for university students but also kids.

Like, get lots of these kids to come to Kenya or vice versa so it is this open place. Kids from South Africa or Nigeria, so our thing where we have a lot of collaborations and exchange and learning in a free environment.

2. Jacobsen: So, we mentioned Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson. We mentioned Carl Sagan before. As well, there are other popularizers like Bill Nye, Brian Cox, and many others. Many of them try to enthuse an audience about science because they look out in the universe and find it exciting.

In other ways, people might find a certain “spirituality” from learning about the universe. From contemplation that there might be water on Mars, that they have an icy body such as Europa, where there might be life underneath.

What would you consider a spiritual aspect of learning about the universe? These could be feelings that come from contemplation about something much larger than oneself. So, nothing supernatural necessarily.

Murabana: I think the cool thing about learning about the Universe is the fact that we’ve been able to find out so much and there is still so much we do not know. There is so much room for discovery. That’s cool and the fact that we thought things were certain like that maybe the Earth was flat, or the Earth was at the center and then we found out different things. That’s the intriguing thing for me and for our kids.

The fact that they have an opportunity to discover. There is room for them. There is room for discovery. They might be the ones to find out new ways to communicate with intelligent life out there if it is there and chances are that it could be. It is the whole idea of trying to get more Africans and some of them contributed to discoveries in that sense. Yes, that’s where I come from.

3. Jacobsen: What is the most mysterious part of the universe to you?

Murabana: What’s the most mysterious part of the universe? That’s an interesting question.

Jacobsen: I mean some might answer the nature of dark matter or dark energy, for instance.

Murabana: Yes, many different things. Black holes, dark energy. The fact that our planet is in space. It is hanging there and looking at some of the planets and appreciating that. it is interesting.

4. Jacobsen: Many astrophysicists and astronomers will guess at the ranges within Frank Drake’s equation on the probability of intelligent life. What number would you put on the number of intelligent civilizations in our galaxy?

Murabana: 90 percent or 95 percent yeah. A high probability. 9 out of 10.

5. Jacobsen: If we take that 9 out of 10 probabilities of it occurring, how many civilizations do you think are out there in our galaxy?

Murabana: Civilizations? I do not know. It is difficult to think. I guess civilization to me is relative. I do not know, but the probability is high. I cannot put a number to it.

When you ask me about what intrigues me, is if we want to find intelligent life or some other life out there, what would it look like? Would it be alien or different or like us? Things like that. That’s interesting.

6. Jacobsen: Who is your favorite scientist in history?

Murabana: I guess Galileo Galilee for giving us the telescope in the sense that he pointed it and made the world look at the world differently and proved different things. Obviously, Albert Einstein, I can go on and on. Isaac Newton, quite a good number of people. Honestly, Neil deGrasse Tyson to me, especially watching Cosmos. I was a huge follower of Scott Kelly? I love his whole trip.

That was cool to see how he communicated to people, even me in Kenya. I was excited about it. I have so many people to mention. I also have a lot of admiration for the lady who fought for our environment who passed on. She passed on in 2011. She was a Nobel Prize winner and professor. She was an astronomer in a different sense. She was mentally special.

She was also fighting for this planet of ours and I appreciate her. I admire her a lot. Being a woman and seeing her struggles and seeing how she presented it and how persistent she was and what that means to Kenya and Africa right now, and the world. It is hard to say a favorite. It is hard to name names.

References

  1. Travelling Telescope. (2018). Travelling Telescope. Retrieved from http://www.travellingtelescope.co.uk/.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Astronomer; Founder, Travelling Telescope; Rotarian.

[2] Individual Publication Date: August 22, 2018: www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-two; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part Two) [Online].August 2018; 17(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-two.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, August 22). An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part Two). Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-two.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A, August. 2018. <www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-two>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-two.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A (August 2018). www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-two.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-two>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-two.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 17.A (2018):August. 2018. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-two>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part Two) [Internet]. (2018, August; 17(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-two.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-08-15

Interview with Anissa Helou (Part Four)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 17.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Thirteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: August 15, 2018

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,750

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Anissa Helou is a Chef, Cooking Instructor, Culinary Researcher, Food Consultant, Food Writer, Middle Eastern Cuisine, and a Writer. Her new book is entitled Feast: Food of the Islamic World. Her Instagram material can be seen here. She discusses: being bugged by East/West differences; favorite Eastern foods; favorite Western foods; A Taste of Syria, In Exile (2014), diversity in the culinary world; the mix of food and culture; how nations lose their culture; collaborative and solo projects; recommended authors; and reaching out to her.

Keywords: Anissa Helou, chef, cooking, culinary arts, food, Middle Eastern, writer.

Interview with Anissa Helou: Chef; Cooking Instructor; Culinary Researcher; Food Consultant; Food Writer, Middle Eastern Cuisine; Writer (Part Four)[1],[2],[3]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: In a presentation on making Tabbouleh, you described that the way Western people prepare Tabbouleh bothers you. You joked, “The one thing that really bugs me about the way Western people make Tabbouleh is the kind of bulgur they use and how much of it they use. It really gets me. (Laughs)”[4] What other East/West differences in preparation “bug” you?

Anissa Helou: Turning names of dishes into generic terms as is the case with hommus.

2. Jacobsen: What are your three favorite Eastern foods?

Helou: Noodles, dumplings and sushi.

3. Jacobsen: What are your three favorite Western foods?

Helou: Pasta, steak and mille feuille.

4. Jacobsen: In A Taste of Syria, In Exile (2014), you, within the culinary expertise and with references to the World Food Programme, personalized the statistics of the situation into individuals.[5] For instance, you write:

Rabab lives with her teenage son and daughter in a large room in an abandoned shopping mall, near Tripoli in north Lebanon, alongside 150 other Syrian families. Some, like her, paid rent while others squatted. The complex looks as though it was built in the 1960s, with generous spaces and wide walkways, across which dozens of children run around, seemingly oblivious to their families’ tragic circumstances.

Rabab’s room is a haven amidst the chaos, neat and calm with a curtain dividing her living space from the kitchen. Long benches are against two walls and a modern Persian carpet covers the floor. There’s TV and an Internet connection, and a revolutionary flag to remind her of home. Rabab invited me to lunch as soon as I explained over the telephone my interest in finding out how the displacement of Syrian women was affecting the way they fed their families and whether they still cooked the same way they did back home…

…Rabab was peeling small aubergines, in stripes leaving some peel on, before cutting them in half, lengthways. She then made a slit in the middle of the fat part of each half, explaining that this helped them cook through. She cooked potatoes every day and made sure to buy her supply at the beginning of the month to avoid any shortage. She, and almost all of the refugees, relied on assistance from World Food Programme to buy their food. Initially, the programme distributed food parcels but these only contained dried goods and so they developed a credit card system redeemable in select shops (320 throughout Lebanon), with an allowance of $30 per person per month. Laure Chadraoui, the programme’s senior communication officer, explained that the $1 a day was calculated to provide the necessary 2200 calories a person needs for good nutrition…

…Sitting with Rabab, sharing her thrifty food, brought back memories of my many trips to Syria, in particular those days I spent in Aleppo, getting lost in the labyrinthine lanes of the medieval souks that are mostly destroyed now, stopping to talk to ladies like her, or Safia, or Umm Ahmad. The hospitality was the same but the food wasn’t; Syria’s rich culinary heritage is in danger of being lost like much else in this beautiful country.[6]

An interesting idea to bring together international organizations, culinary expertise, basic necessities such as food, statistics, and individual stories to shed light onto areas of need in the world, that is, Syria. What is the importance of diversity in the international culinary world?

Helou: It is very important to have diverse voices be heard so that people can find out more about different culinary cultures, how they develop, whether they are at risk because of conflicts and so on.

5. Jacobsen: How do culture and food mix?

Helou: Food is culture. It is a wonderful way to get to know a country, its people, their customs, history, social lives, religious restrictions, and so many other aspects of a country and its people. For me travelling for food is the best way to get to know a country as most people open up as soon as you talk about food, far more than if you were to talk about art or music. Almost all people like food and know a certain amount about it whereas with other aspects of culture, the number of people who read or listen to music or go to exhibitions is far more limited.

6. Jacobsen: What other nations or cities seem likely to lose their culture?

Helou: Any nation that experiences prolonged conflict or aggression.

7. Jacobsen: Any upcoming collaborative projects?

Helou: Feast, Food of the Islamic World was an epic undertaking and it is just published now. I think I will take it easy for a while before I think about the next project.

8. Jacobsen: Any upcoming solo projects?

Helou: See 7.

9. Jacobsen: Any recommended authors?

Helou: Nevin Halici for Turkish food, Zette Guinaudeau Franc for Moroccan, Charles Perry for medieval Arabic Cookery, and Mary Taylor Simeti for Sicilian.

10. Jacobsen: For those with an interest in further personal research into you, they can contact you, read the blog, Twitter, or visit the personal/professional website.[7],[8],[9],[10] Any other means of further research into you?

Helou: My latest and most favorite way to communicate online nowadays is Instagram and that is where people will find me traveling, eating, working and generally enjoying life.

11. Jacobsen: Thank you for your time, Anissa Helou.

Bibliography

  1. [anissa Helou]. (2015, January 15). anissa making tabbouleh 08. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Owtn2IoT_vw.
  2. [AP Archive]. (2015, August 3). Egyptian street food arrives in London. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKE8XOrSfGA.
  3. [Canongate Books]. (2014, September 3). Anissa Helou’s Middle Eastern Meatballs. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFhdtbRTdCM.
  4. [Canongate Books]. (2014, March 8). Chefs who inspired Signe Johansen and Anissa Helou to cook. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMNaSmt2Ths.
  5. [discoverspice]. (2013, March 30). Anissa Helou – art, passion and the Mediterranean!. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTWWOfprVp8.
  6. [Firehorse Showreel]. (2012, August 6). El Chef Yaktachef – Episode 9. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMt-xxkN2jA.
  7. [QatarUK2013]. (2013, November 26). Evenings with Aisha Al-Tamimi and Anissa Helou: Dishes from Qatar. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdAadHJGfwg.
  8. [SallyB2]. (2013, February 20). Anissa Helou On Koshari, And The Rise Of Middle-Eastern Cuisine In London. Retrieved from http://londonist.com/2013/02/koshari.
  9. [sbsarabicvideo’s channel]. (2010, October 26). Karabij and Natif with Anissa Helou. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8iYQWppLUA.
  10. [Sharjah Book Fair]. (2011, December 26). Anissa Helou at Sharjah Book Fair 2011.wmv. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZMYSmzJ_58.
  11. Arabian Business. (2013). Anissa Helou. Retrieved from http://www.arabianbusiness.com/100-most-powerful-arab-women-2013-491497.html?view=profile&itemid=491348#.UVrfMasaeDk.
  12. Arabian Business. (2013). Anissa Helou. Retrieved from http://www.arabianbusiness.com/arabian-business-power-500-2013-493796.html?view=profile&itemid=493832#.VtRbRZwrKM-.
  13. Christie’s. (2016). Christie’s. Retrieved from http://www.christies.com/.
  14. Derhally, M.A. (2013, May 2). Anissa Helou interview: Accidental Cook. Retrieved from http://www.arabianbusiness.com/anissa-helou-interview-accidental-cook-499915.html.
  15. Helou, A. (2016). Anissa Helou. Retrieved from http://www.anissas.com/.
  16. Helou, A. (2014, June 8). A Taste of Syria, In Exile. Retrieved from http://www.newsweek.com/2014/06/13/taste-syria-exile-253808.html.
  17. Helou, A. (2014, May 24). MOVE OVER BROCCOLI, CAULIFLOWER IS THE NEWEST SUPERFOOD. Retrieved from http://www.newsweek.com/2014/05/30/move-over-broccoli-cauliflower-newest-superfood-251878.html.
  18. Hodeib, M. (2014, Septemer 24). Anissa Helou: the elegant chef. Retrieved from http://www.dailystar.com.lb/Life/Lubnan/2014/Sep-24/271726-anissa-helou-the-elegant-chef.ashx.
  19. Jalil, X. (2016, February 9). Women to take centre stage at LLF 2016. Retrieved from http://images.dawn.com/news/1174798.
  20. Martha Stewart. (2016). Cooking Turkish Meat Bread with Lamb. Retrieved from http://www.marthastewart.com/910372/cooking-turkish-meat-bread-lamb.
  21. Martha Stewart. (2016). Moroccan-Style Stuff Bread. Retrieved from http://www.marthastewart.com/910371/moroccan-style-stuffed-mussels.
  22. O’Sullivan, E. (2014, May 3). Anissa Helou’s Laster Supper. Retrieved from http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/may/03/anissa-helou-last-supper-stuffed-chard-recipe.
  23. Robinson, W. (2014, October 03). Chef Anissa Helou’s Expert Tips on What to Do in Abu Dhabi. Retrieved from http://www.cntraveler.com/stories/2014-10-03/chef-anissa-helou-s-expert-tips-on-what-to-do-in-abu-dhabi.
  24. Sarfraz, E. (2016, February 21). All about freedom of expression. Retrieved from http://nation.com.pk/national/21-Feb-2016/all-about-freedom-of-expression.
  25. Shaukat, A. (2016, February 22). Garnish cooking with research, experiment. Retrieved from http://tribune.com.pk/story/1051748/garnish-cooking-with-research-experiment/.
  26. The World Bank. (2016). Middle East and North Africa. Retrieved from http://www.worldbank.org/en/region/mena.
  27. (2016). @anissahelou. Retrieved from https://twitter.com/anissahelou.
  28. Wood, S. (2013, October 15). The food writer Anissa Helou on her new cookbook, Levant. Retrieved from http://www.thenational.ae/lifestyle/food/the-food-writer-anissa-helou-on-her-new-cookbook-levant.
  29. Yang, W. (2014, July 5). First Stop: Anissa Helou’s Istanbul. Retrieved from http://www.culinarybackstreets.com/istanbul/2014/first-stop-10/.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Chef; Cooking Instructor; Culinary Researcher; Food Consultant; Food Writer, Middle Eastern Cuisine; Writer.

[2] Individual Publication Date: August 15, 2018: www.in-sightjournal.com/helou-four; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Photograph courtesy of Anissa Helou.

[4] [anissa Helou]. (2015, January 15). anissa making tabbouleh 08. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Owtn2IoT_vw.

[5] Helou, A. (2014, June 8). A Taste of Syria, In Exile. Retrieved from http://www.newsweek.com/2014/06/13/taste-syria-exile-253808.html.

[6] Helou, A. (2014, June 8). A Taste of Syria, In Exile. Retrieved from http://www.newsweek.com/2014/06/13/taste-syria-exile-253808.html.

[7] Helou, A. (2016). Contact. http://www.anissas.com/contact/.

[8] Helou, A. (2016). Blog. Retrieved from http://www.anissas.com/.

[9] Twitter. (2016). @anissahelou. Retrieved from https://twitter.com/anissahelou.

[10] Helou, A. (2016). Anissa Helou. Retrieved from http://www.anissas.com/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Anissa Helou (Part Four) [Online].August 2018; 17(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/helou-four.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, August 15). An Interview with Anissa Helou (Part Four). Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/helou-four.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Anissa Helou (Part Four). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A, August. 2018. <www.in-sightjournal.com/helou-four>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Anissa Helou (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/helou-four.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Anissa Helou (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A (August 2018). www.in-sightjournal.com/helou-four.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Anissa Helou (Part Four)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/helou-four>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Anissa Helou (Part Four)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/helou-four.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Anissa Helou (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 17.A (2018):August. 2018. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/helou-four>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Anissa Helou (Part Four) [Internet]. (2018, August; 17(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/helou-four.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2018-08-15

An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part One)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 17.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Thirteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: August 15, 2018

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,588

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Susan Murabana is an Astronomer and Rotarian, and Founder of the Travelling Telescope. She discusses: family background; the Cosmos series and science communication; communication of astronomy; and understanding science and tackling issues in society.

Keywords: astronomer, Neil deGrasse Tyson, Rotarian, Susan Murabana, Travelling Telescope.

Interview with Susan Murabana: Astronomer and Rotarian, and Founder, Travelling Telescope (Part One)[1],[2]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: In terms of geography, culture, and language, where does your family background reside?

Susan Murabana: I grew up in a large family with 6 siblings. My mother was a teacher. She is retired now. My dad taught, but he was still in communications and engineering. I felt that I had supportive parents. They were involved in my education. In fact, my mom taught me at school. I went to high school and learned science, but I ended up doing my degree in economics, which I enjoyed.

When I was doing my final here, I got involved with a group of scientists who were (inaudible) grad and undergrad students who had come to teach science and most of them were astrophysicists. I got connected with the science side at school. So, I think by seeing what I saw them do on the first day of school, I knew now that I wanted to do that.

I wanted to teach and teach science. It was only after a few years. I always loved astronomy, but I did not appreciate it. Only until later I went to Ghana for was a conference and there was a thing on African cultural astronomy. I started listening to the presenters talking about African traditional stories.

I was intrigued and wanted to find out what I could about East Africa and my home and any traditional sky knowledge. I always felt that astronomy was a foreign science or a Western science, but at that time I got to learn that it was practiced in Africa as well. I thought that it was a science I could connect my people with and that got me excited.

So obviously, I got involved in astronomy outreach and I saw the power. The fact of having the telescope out or talking about certain topics sparks curiosity. Because we have all looked up at the sky at some point and wondered as children and that’s what I am trying to promote. Get people, especially young minds in Africa, in Kenya, excited about the sky.

So, I switched my careers. I stopped working for this IT company. I was doing marketing for them, but I was like, “I want to do outreach.” That was difficult, but I had some support from my parents and the support of my siblings and that was important to me. I feel that family is important. It is important to have support.

It is important for parents to support their children in whatever careers they decide to go in to. I was lucky to have that. Especially girls. Girls who want to get into careers that are not traditional. I always felt it was important to get that support. So, moving forward, I am now married, I have two children. My husband and I met in an astronomy group, which is cheesy [Laughing].

We had organized this trip we arranged through my rotary club to go to northern Kenya for a trip. It was a hybrid one. A few members were interested in looking at the sky. So, when this trip was coming up, I suggested to them that we should plan a trip and we got a lot of support from Astronomers Without Borders, to take glasses around schools.

I am the national coordinator of Astronomers Without Borders. They sent a lot of glasses to Africa. We got quite a number. My husband, who at that time mailed and said he was interested in coming to film, made and distributed the glasses and he ended up coming. He was filming, and we met, and he filmed me distributing the glasses and he came on the trip to Kenya. Yes, the rest is history.

That’s how we met. Obviously, astronomy is such a big part of my family life because I met my husband through that. He had come off the idea. He’s a filmmaker by training. He had also done a little bit of astronomy and he had also done public outreach in places in the UK and he came up with the idea for the Travelling Telescope.

We decided we wanted to do outreach. We decided we wanted to donate money to do (inaudible) and work with schools and work with the people of Africa. We intend to go everywhere, everywhere we can reach, we want to come to Canada one day, as the Travelling Telescope.

To work with kids and to get members of the public to enjoy and experience our project. Then we have 2 boys. We have a four-and-a-half-year-old and a one-and-a-half-year-old. The four and a half is learning about astronomy and he’s been under the mobile planetarium we take around. Sometimes he says he works for the traveling telescope.

2. Jacobsen: There are some prominent names. I think some statistics from Carl Sagan’s ex-wife, where she said over a billion people have seen the Cosmos series, the original. Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson has rebooted it.

I think even through a prominent network in the United States. They are professional science communicators and happen to be astrophysicists. With your professional training, what are some of the issues that come up in the clarity of the communication of science? As well, what are some tips for those that want to communicate science to the public?

Murabana: I guess communicating science is, I think in my experience, is difficult in some ways. Because first, it is communicating with different audiences and being interesting. That’s what someone like Neil deGrasse Tyson is good at. As a scientist, he’s a good communicator and he connects with different audiences. For us, we aren’t at Neil deGrasse Tyson’s level [Laughing].

I try to model our activities as interactive, especially with school kids, as much as possible. So, rocket launch with the available materials. That’s one thing we try to push for. Readily available materials. Or trying to demonstrate the sense of scale. Try to show how big the universe is. Another thing we try to use and a global thing is trying to get as many responses.

Right now, the cool thing that is happening is virtual reality and we can use virtual reality headsets in class to teach astronomy. So, we have the headsets. We have the cords to use them and we feel that it is exposing several kids in Africa to what kids in any country of the world have been exposed to. I guess that answers your question.

Trying to use films. As I say with my husband, the documentary about our trip to Ghana, those are some of those things we screen for the kids. We also screened some of the Cosmos series. Mars, that film. We try to use different tools to help us with communication. But also, we try to train university students and we realize every individual has different strengths and we try to maximize those strengths.

Some of them, students with degrees in astronomy or studying to get degrees in astronomy, some of them are interested and some are not. We try to maximize the potential and it must be in front of the kids. The ones who are good with social media for example. Using it to transform the different groups that we work with.

We are also trying to get the kids more involved. We run clubs in some of the schools and we are now using music or art as a form of communication. So, we play a Sun song and facts about the Sun in the song. We try and create the song with the students or young kids. So, we come up with the lyrics together, we are singing together.

That’s contagious, for lack of a better word. Kids would relate to it and as they sing, they learn about the Sun. I guess we use as many different tools as possible and appreciating art in our way of communicating.

3. Jacobsen: What do you think is the importance of communication of astronomy in particular?

Murabana: I feel that we’ve all been connected to astronomy first. The Earth goes around the Sun and we all live on that. We have problems now like climate change which is real. What makes me most passionate about it, it was as a child I saw; this lady fight for our planet.

Fight for the environment and plant trees and encouraging Kenyans not to cut trees. Many years later she ended up winning the Nobel Prize and she was a Kenyan and she was a lady. At the time she won it, I had a lot of admiration for her as an adult because I remembered. I could see how affected we were.

So, I struggled. As an adult, I was more aware and seeing the importance of things like that and that’s part of astronomy. Trying to show how unique our planet is and the importance of taking care of it and trying to encourage kids about how important it is at that level.

So, most of the times, the average Kenyan or kid does not think of astronomy for that. They think astronomy is only looking up at the sky and star gazing, but it is beyond that. It is the technologies that have been developed that come back to Earth through astronomy and are being used for maps or things like that.

It is relevant. That’s why communicating astronomy is important for us, for the environment, for every politician to understand the nature of the environmental movement. Also, the technologies and most importantly to encourage more scientists on our continent, so we can have more solutions and technology can develop from within.

4. Jacobsen: If we take the political aspect of science, by which I mean the funding of projects, the knowledge about the world and the policies that follow from that to solve urgent problems and ongoing problems such as climate change, what are some of the risks of politicians?

People in the political class that might not necessarily have scientific training or an appreciation for the fundamental truths that science brings to the table.

If we take politicians, what are some risks in terms of them being either not scientifically trained or not appreciative of the fundamental truths that science brings to the table? So, how might this negatively impact a policy that can then negatively impact society?

Murabana: Yes, I think that populations to have training in understanding it helps for them to tackle issues like climate change. Also, it helps with the supports and financial ones like whatever the government gives to certain issues. It feels like things like astronomy should be taught to everybody, including politicians because of that reason.

Especially, I come from a place where we are starting to get some appreciation and are getting excited about that and I feel that we still have a lot of work to do here. It is so important for people in terms of traditions and culture.

I think that for them to understand it. They need to get more training and there needs to be more awareness for them to make better decisions when it comes to things like climate change, for security for example. These are issues that the world is facing, and Africa is affected by it. We have issues of hunger or famine and it is real.

People are dying because they do not have food and it is something that could be managed or controlled. We should do more outreach with the politicians as well. As I was saying, my parents being part of my journey, those are my leaders. Those are the people that I relate to. I want them to, how do I put it?

At home are the best people who you look at as leaders and if we have politicians in the same line to teachers for example and understanding things like astronomy or producing things that damage the environment, then I think it will make our homes better or where we live better. The other thing is it is not about politics and finding, but it is also about peace.

We have this small planet, and everyone lives here and has needs. If you look at the image of that, there are no borders. We are all one. There is no tribe, there is no race, there is no religion, we are all one. We feel that it is also a message you need to take out. We need to live peacefully together rather than fight for resources or fight because we belong to a certain religion or race or things like that.

The best people to spread that message are our leaders, who are our politicians. Having those images like that of people going to space in the ISS and sharing those images and talking about it and making it more accessible to the public but also getting our leaders to get the public involved. It helps.

References

  1. Travelling Telescope. (2018). Travelling Telescope. Retrieved from http://www.travellingtelescope.co.uk/.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Astronomer; Founder, Travelling Telescope; Rotarian.

[2] Individual Publication Date: August 15, 2018: www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-one; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part One) [Online].August 2018; 17(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-one.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, August 15). An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part One). Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-one.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A, August. 2018. <www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-one>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-one.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A (August 2018). www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-one.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-one>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-one.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 17.A (2018):August. 2018. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-one>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Susan Murabana (Part One) [Internet]. (2018, August; 17(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/murabana-one.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-08-08

An Interview with Anissa Helou (Part Three)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 17.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Thirteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: August 8, 2018

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,675

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Anissa Helou is a Chef, Cooking Instructor, Culinary Researcher, Food Consultant, Food Writer, Middle Eastern Cuisine, and a Writer. Her new book is entitled Feast: Food of the Islamic World. Her Instagram material can be seen here. She discusses: hand-tied flies an illustration of a trout; the Shoreditch warehouse and the Victorian house; different perspectives; items in the warehouse; responsibilities to the public with the exposure; polyglotism; knowing many languages and its help in professional life; 43 out of the “100 Most Powerful Arab Women,” according to Arabian Business, and 113 out of the 500 “most influential Arabs”; further exposure and responsibility to the public; recognitions in personal and professional life; Koshari Street; Convent Garden; planning and development of the street food shop; the dishes of Koshari street; Martha Stewart; long-term goal with street food; the change in the cuisine landscape; globalization and cuisine; general philosophy; political philosophy; social philosophy; economic philosophy; aesthetic philosophy; personal meaning; and self-expression.

Keywords: Anissa Helou, chef, cooking, culinary arts, food, Middle Eastern, writer.

Interview with Anissa Helou: Chef; Cooking Instructor; Culinary Researcher; Food Consultant; Food Writer, Middle Eastern Cuisine; Writer (Part Three)[1],[2],[3]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: About (2016) continues:

An example of her acumen as a collector was the sale of a series of display panels of fishing tackle, one of which achieved a world record price. Having sold all but her books and most personal possessions, she bought with the proceeds of the sale a remarkable two-story warehouse loft in Shoreditch. This she decorated with her usual excellent taste, but this time as a severely functional, minimalist working space.[4]

What were the contents of this display panel of fishing tackle that “achieved” the “world record price”?

Anissa Helou: A selection of hand-tied flies surround an illustration of a trout, I think.

2. Jacobsen: How was the feel of the Shoreditch warehouse different than the Victorian house?

Helou: Totally different. The Victorian house was on three floors with conventional rooms and full of stuff, paintings, furniture, objects, memorabilia and so on. The loft was on two floors, with the top room completely open and double height in part and very spare. White walls with no paintings on them, only modern furniture and very light and airy with a beautiful kitchen stainless steel and lacquered wood kitchen. It was a wonderful space.

3. Jacobsen: What about its different perspective once inside it?

Helou: I worked in the big loft room looking out onto the kitchen and the buildings beyond my windows with a wonderful feeling of space whereas my study in my Victorian house, also on the top floor, was smallish with my desk against the wall and my view if I looked out of the window was over London back gardens which was very nice but a completely different feel from having a huge room all to yourself even if it didn’t have much of a view.

4. Jacobsen: What items were kept for the Shoreditch warehouse?

Helou: My Victorian wrought iron bed and a couple of early 19th century mannequins. In fact, my bedroom in the flat was the only real reminder of my previous life.

5. Jacobsen: Now, you have a deep interest in the Levant.[5] You wrote some books on the subject, among others. You speak and write for radio and television. You write for publications in the United Kingdom and the United States. What responsibilities to the public comes with this exposure?

Helou: To convey truthfully and vivdly the food culture of that region and to provide recipes that not only work, but are authentic whatever that word really means as there are so many variations on each recipe depending on the family or region. But by authentic, I mean that a person of the country will not roll his/her eyes wondering where the writer has gotten the recipe from. I am over simplifying but this is the gist of it.

6. Jacobsen: You have fluency in three languages: Arabic, English, and French. Where does this linguistic talent source itself?

Helou: I guess being brought up with two languages, French and Arabic, helps. I also happen to have a very good knack for languages picking both accent and vocabulary easily. And since I have moved to Sicily, I have become fairly fluent in Italian although my grammar is still not perfect and my vocabulary needs expanding.

7. Jacobsen: How has this assisted in professional life?

Helou: It’s very useful when I travel to speak the language of the country or a language that is very commonly spoken.

8. Jacobsen: You earned ranks 43 out of the “100 Most Powerful Arab Women,” according to Arabian Business, and 113 out of the 500 “most influential Arabs.”[6],[7] What does this recognition mean to you?

Helou: It was very flattering to be included although I don’t reckon that lists really mean much.

9. Jacobsen: Furthermore, the World Bank states the population of the MENA region remains ~355 million people.[8] In other words, you exist among some of the most accomplished and recognized individuals in the region with a population in the hundreds of millions – specific amount dependent on taking into account the Middle East, North Africa, or MENA. What responsibilities to the public, if any, come from this recognition too?

Helou: The same as that of being a published author and a public figure, setting a good example and being a good role model to inspire younger people or even older ones.

10. Jacobsen: Do recognitions like these influence personal life or professional work?

Helou: They make you more marketable!

11. Jacobsen: Your recent work incorporates some introduction to the West aspects of the culinary arts and “delights” of the East.[9] In addition to this general work, you have worked with Egyptian entrepreneurs to experiment with street food ideas such as Koshari Street. What is Koshari Street?

Helou: It is a modern take on the Egyptian hole-in-the-wall places selling street food. Koshari is the quintessential Egyptian street food and I reworked the recipe to make it easier and quicker to serve in the west and healthier. I didn’t change the taste, only added a little more texture by not overcooking the ingredients and adding doqqa to the mix. I have to say though that I am no longer involved with Koshari Street.

12. Jacobsen: Why Convent Garden in London, United Kingdom for its experimentation?

Helou: It was the decision of the Egyptian entrepreneurs but it is also a place with a huge footfall.

13. Jacobsen: In Egyptian street food arrives in London, you said:

I think it was very interesting at the beginning because people didn’t know what Koshari was and we didn’t actually have enough visuals in the shop. So, we, apart from explaining to them what it was – it was very important for us to give them, to let them try the Koshari. So, we gave tasters to almost everybody, and we still do funnily enough…but when you think about it – lentils, rice, pasta, tomato sauce – it doesn’t sound very exciting, but when you taste it and you have the different textures and the different flavours and the spiciness of it all. It becomes much more exciting…and there is a definite, definite trend towards Arab or Middle Eastern food in London.[10]

What changes would help people know about Koshari – as part of the visual advertising aspects of selling street food?

Helou: Having more beautiful photos of the koshari itself and atmospheric photos of it being sold on the streets of Cairo.

14. Jacobsen: What needs to go into the planning and development of a street food shop?

Helou: Almost as much as what goes into planning a restaurant. You need a kitchen where to prepare the food, chefs to cook it and expert staff in the shop to serve it. And of course quality control to make sure the food is consistently good and served the right way.

15. Jacobsen: Lentils, rice, pasta, and tomato sauce, what delicious dishes emerge from the Koshari street food shop with these ingredients – the ones with “different textures,” “different flavours,” and “spiciness”?

Helou: Just the koshari, as well as a few salads and dips.

16. Jacobsen: You discussed some personal history with street food on the Martha Stewart show too.[11] What is the short-term goal with street food?

Helou: I would love to start other concepts but I am now finishing a book and until that is done, I cannot take on any similar work. My new book Feast: Food of the Islamic World has just been published in the US and will be published in the UK in October.

17. Jacobsen: What is the long-term goal with street food?

Helou: See above…

18. Jacobsen: You were born on February 1, 1952. What has changed in the nature of the cuisine landscape since the personal start in it?

Helou: Not much really in Lebanon except that it is not so easy to find.

19. Jacobsen: With globalization and increased access to travel, what seems like the trajectory and future of the world of cuisine?

Helou: More and more exposure to a wider public which is a good thing.

20. Jacobsen: What general philosophy seems the most correct to you?

Helou: Enjoying life to the full without forgetting those less fortunate and doing good work that will last long after you are gone.

21. Jacobsen: What political philosophy seems the most correct to you?

Helou: Liberal or in the centre with an accent on the welfare state.

22. Jacobsen: What social philosophy seems the most correct to you?

Helou: A fair world even if it is a tall order!

23. Jacobsen: What economic philosophy seems the most correct to you?

Helou: That there should be no poverty or famine in the world, which can be achieved but there is no will to eradicate either.

24. Jacobsen: What aesthetic philosophy seems the most correct to you?

Helou: That people should strive to surround themselves with beauty but again this seems beyond reach.

25. Jacobsen: What interrelates these philosophies?

Helou: A sense of fairness and empathy although the accent on beauty or aesthetics does not actually fit in that much.

26. Jacobsen: What personal meaning comes from self-expression through culinary arts and written works?

Helou: A sense of fulfillment in recording recipes and culinary lore that might otherwise be lost.

27. Jacobsen: What other forms of self-expression provide meaning in life for you?

Helou: Cultivating friendship.

Bibliography

  1. [anissa Helou]. (2015, January 15). anissa making tabbouleh 08. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Owtn2IoT_vw.
  2. [AP Archive]. (2015, August 3). Egyptian street food arrives in London. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKE8XOrSfGA.
  3. [Canongate Books]. (2014, September 3). Anissa Helou’s Middle Eastern Meatballs. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFhdtbRTdCM.
  4. [Canongate Books]. (2014, March 8). Chefs who inspired Signe Johansen and Anissa Helou to cook. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMNaSmt2Ths.
  5. [discoverspice]. (2013, March 30). Anissa Helou – art, passion and the Mediterranean!. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTWWOfprVp8.
  6. [Firehorse Showreel]. (2012, August 6). El Chef Yaktachef – Episode 9. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMt-xxkN2jA.
  7. [QatarUK2013]. (2013, November 26). Evenings with Aisha Al-Tamimi and Anissa Helou: Dishes from Qatar. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdAadHJGfwg.
  8. [SallyB2]. (2013, February 20). Anissa Helou On Koshari, And The Rise Of Middle-Eastern Cuisine In London. Retrieved from http://londonist.com/2013/02/koshari.
  9. [sbsarabicvideo’s channel]. (2010, October 26). Karabij and Natif with Anissa Helou. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8iYQWppLUA.
  10. [Sharjah Book Fair]. (2011, December 26). Anissa Helou at Sharjah Book Fair 2011.wmv. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZMYSmzJ_58.
  11. Arabian Business. (2013). Anissa Helou. Retrieved from http://www.arabianbusiness.com/100-most-powerful-arab-women-2013-491497.html?view=profile&itemid=491348#.UVrfMasaeDk.
  12. Arabian Business. (2013). Anissa Helou. Retrieved from http://www.arabianbusiness.com/arabian-business-power-500-2013-493796.html?view=profile&itemid=493832#.VtRbRZwrKM-.
  13. Christie’s. (2016). Christie’s. Retrieved from http://www.christies.com/.
  14. Derhally, M.A. (2013, May 2). Anissa Helou interview: Accidental Cook. Retrieved from http://www.arabianbusiness.com/anissa-helou-interview-accidental-cook-499915.html.
  15. Helou, A. (2016). Anissa Helou. Retrieved from http://www.anissas.com/.
  16. Helou, A. (2014, June 8). A Taste of Syria, In Exile. Retrieved from http://www.newsweek.com/2014/06/13/taste-syria-exile-253808.html.
  17. Helou, A. (2014, May 24). MOVE OVER BROCCOLI, CAULIFLOWER IS THE NEWEST SUPERFOOD. Retrieved from http://www.newsweek.com/2014/05/30/move-over-broccoli-cauliflower-newest-superfood-251878.html.
  18. Hodeib, M. (2014, Septemer 24). Anissa Helou: the elegant chef. Retrieved from http://www.dailystar.com.lb/Life/Lubnan/2014/Sep-24/271726-anissa-helou-the-elegant-chef.ashx.
  19. Jalil, X. (2016, February 9). Women to take centre stage at LLF 2016. Retrieved from http://images.dawn.com/news/1174798.
  20. Martha Stewart. (2016). Cooking Turkish Meat Bread with Lamb. Retrieved from http://www.marthastewart.com/910372/cooking-turkish-meat-bread-lamb.
  21. Martha Stewart. (2016). Moroccan-Style Stuff Bread. Retrieved from http://www.marthastewart.com/910371/moroccan-style-stuffed-mussels.
  22. O’Sullivan, E. (2014, May 3). Anissa Helou’s Laster Supper. Retrieved from http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/may/03/anissa-helou-last-supper-stuffed-chard-recipe.
  23. Robinson, W. (2014, October 03). Chef Anissa Helou’s Expert Tips on What to Do in Abu Dhabi. Retrieved from http://www.cntraveler.com/stories/2014-10-03/chef-anissa-helou-s-expert-tips-on-what-to-do-in-abu-dhabi.
  24. Sarfraz, E. (2016, February 21). All about freedom of expression. Retrieved from http://nation.com.pk/national/21-Feb-2016/all-about-freedom-of-expression.
  25. Shaukat, A. (2016, February 22). Garnish cooking with research, experiment. Retrieved from http://tribune.com.pk/story/1051748/garnish-cooking-with-research-experiment/.
  26. The World Bank. (2016). Middle East and North Africa. Retrieved from http://www.worldbank.org/en/region/mena.
  27. (2016). @anissahelou. Retrieved from https://twitter.com/anissahelou.
  28. Wood, S. (2013, October 15). The food writer Anissa Helou on her new cookbook, Levant. Retrieved from http://www.thenational.ae/lifestyle/food/the-food-writer-anissa-helou-on-her-new-cookbook-levant.
  29. Yang, W. (2014, July 5). First Stop: Anissa Helou’s Istanbul. Retrieved from http://www.culinarybackstreets.com/istanbul/2014/first-stop-10/.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Chef; Cooking Instructor; Culinary Researcher; Food Consultant; Food Writer, Middle Eastern Cuisine; Writer.

[2] Individual Publication Date: July 22, 2018: www.in-sightjournal.com/helou-three; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Photograph courtesy of Anissa Helou.

[4] Helou, A. (2016). About. Retrieved from http://www.anissas.com/about/.

[5] About (2016) states:

Anissa continues with her unique style and her ferocious energy to demonstrate to the West the range of culinary delights offered by the East. She is presently working with a group of Egyptian entrepreneurs on launching various street food concepts. Their first, Koshari Street, is opening in Covent Garden in London in early May.

Helou, A. (2016). About. Retrieved from http://www.anissas.com/about/.

[6] Arabian Business. (2013). Anissa Helou. Retrieved from http://www.arabianbusiness.com/100-most-powerful-arab-women-2013-491497.html?view=profile&itemid=491348#.UVrfMasaeDk.

[7] Arabian Business. (2013). Anissa Helou. Retrieved from http://www.arabianbusiness.com/arabian-business-power-500-2013-493796.html?view=profile&itemid=493832#.VtRbRZwrKM-.

[8] The World Bank. (2016). Middle East and North Africa. Retrieved from http://www.worldbank.org/en/region/mena.

[9] About (2016) states:

Anissa has always taken a strong interest in the food of the Levant. She has written several books about it. Lebanese Cuisine, the first comprehensive collection in the English language (1994) was her first. It was followed by Street Café Morocco, a fascinating introduction to the subtle flavours of the cuisine of that country. Both books achieved considerable acclaim. Mediterranean Street Food was published in 2002 and was equally well received. The Fifth Quarter, a pioneering book on the uses and delights of offal, followed in 2004. It is already beginning to overcome the traditional squeamishness of the British cook. Her fifth book, Modern Mezze was published in the UK in July 2007, and her sixth book, Savory Baking from the Mediterrean, was published in New York in August 2007. Levant, Recipes and Memories from the Middle East, is published in the UK this summer.

Helou, A. (2016). About. Retrieved from http://www.anissas.com/about/.

[10] [AP Archive]. (2015, August 3). Egyptian street food arrives in London. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKE8XOrSfGA.

[11] Martha Stewart. (2016). Moroccan-Style Stuff Bread. Retrieved from http://www.marthastewart.com/910371/moroccanstyle-stuffed-mussels.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Anissa Helou (Part Three) [Online].August 2018; 17(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/helou-three.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, August 8). An Interview with Anissa Helou (Part Three). Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/helou-three.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Anissa Helou (Part Three). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A, August. 2018. <www.in-sightjournal.com/helou-three>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Anissa Helou (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/helou-three.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Anissa Helou (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A (August 2018). www.in-sightjournal.com/helou-three.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Anissa Helou (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/helou-three>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Anissa Helou (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/helou-three.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Anissa Helou (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 17.A (2018):August. 2018. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/helou-three>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Anissa Helou (Part Three) [Internet]. (2018, August; 17(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/helou-three.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2018-08-01

An Interview with Anissa Helou (Part Two)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 17.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Thirteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: August 1, 2018

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,615

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Anissa Helou is a Chef, Cooking Instructor, Culinary Researcher, Food Consultant, Food Writer, Middle Eastern Cuisine, and a Writer. Her new book is entitled Feast: Food of the Islamic World. Her Instagram material can be seen here. She discusses: the appointment as Sotheby’s representative for the Middle East; transition into owning and running an antique shop in Paris to sell objets d’art and furniture; personal and professional lessons from the work as Sotheby’s representative for the Middle East and owning an antique shop in Paris; the most memorable sale from running the antique store; the 1978 to 1986 period in Kuwait as an advisor for multiple members of the Kuwaiti ruling family; skills developed in the midst of work in these three domains: representative for the Middle East, ownership of a shop, and advisor to the ruling family; distinguishing Islamic art from other art; various collectors about the purchase of “Victorian paintings, European silver, jewellery and Arts and Crafts furniture”; the Kuwaiti family members worked the closest with; most touching experience; distinguishing Victorian and European art from other art; “Aladdin’s cave”; and selling the house.

Keywords: Anissa Helou, chef, cooking, culinary arts, food, Middle Eastern, writer.

Interview with Anissa Helou: Chef; Cooking Instructor; Culinary Researcher; Food Consultant; Food Writer, Middle Eastern Cuisine; Writer (Part Two)[1],[2],[3]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: In About (2016), it states:

Anissa Helou was born, the daughter of a Syrian father and a Lebanese mother, in Beirut and educated there at a French convent school. Aged 21, she moved to London to escape the rigid social convention of her country and began to study interior design at Inchbald School of Design then at Sotheby’s training course, the history of art. She was soon appointed Sotheby’s representative for the Middle East. For a while thereafter, she owned and ran an antique shop in Paris, dealing in furniture and objets d’art which reflected her own sophisticated and highly individual taste. From 1978 until 1986 she was based in Kuwait and was adviser to several members of the Kuwaiti ruling family who were then forming collections of Islamic art. She also advised these and other collectors on the purchase of Victorian paintings, European silver, jewellery and Arts and Crafts furniture.

During this period she travelled extensively and she also started to build her own very personal collections. On her return to London in 1986, she housed her collections in her Victorian house transforming it into an Aladdin’s cave of beautiful and often bizarre treasures.[4]

What instigated the appointment as Sotheby’s representative for the Middle East?

Anissa Helou: The fact that I was Arab, spoke Arabic, was well connected and had successfully completed the Sotheby’s Works of Art Course which in those days was a form of training for later recruitment by the firm.

2. Jacobsen: How did this transition into owning and running an antique shop in Paris to sell objets d’art and furniture?

Helou: I have always been very independent and I didn’t particularly like to work for a corporation however prestigious. Also, I was too early. Arabs were not interested in buying art and Sotheby’s were not willing in investing to promote themselves there so I wasn’t achieving much and I preferred to go it on my own. This said my antiques shop in Paris was a total disaster and I lost almost all the money my father had given me for it. I was only 24 with no experience in business, and no taste for it really. I just loved beautiful things and thought people would just buy what I liked at any price but they didn’t. And I had opened in Les Halles thinking that the area would develop into a cool place but in fact it didn’t. Quite the opposite. So I switched to becoming a free lance consultant and I was pretty successful at that.

3. Jacobsen: What different personal and professional lessons came from the work as Sotheby’s representative for the Middle East and owning an antique shop in Paris?

Helou: So many but the most important were that experience and hard work are essential. And in those days I had neither, I was too young and I was more interested in enjoying the good life and all that Europe offered me than to hunker down and work very hard.

4. Jacobsen: What seems like the most memorable sale from running the antique store?

Helou: When I sold a pair of appliques (I think) to a decorator who was buying them for Jean Marais. It was very exciting.

5. Jacobsen: In the 1978 to 1986 period in Kuwait as an advisor for multiple members of the Kuwaiti ruling family, in their formation of collections of Islamic art, what items come to mind in reflection on the 18-year period?

Helou: Many fine Islamic art objects and some beautiful minor pre-Raphaelite paintings including one by Marie Spartali Stillman – there was a show of her work in London recently but in those days no one knew her – and starting my fishing collection because I was also collecting but obviously on a much smaller scale as I had no money to speak of.

6. Jacobsen: What skills developed in the midst of work in these three domains: representative for the Middle East, ownership of a shop, and advisor to the ruling family?

Helou: I only advised a few members of the ruling family, and as their consultant I developed a skill for advising my clients gently as to what would be good pieces for them to collect. I also developed a skill I developed for negotiations with dealers as I was looking to buy the best price possible.

7. Jacobsen: What distinguishes Islamic art from other art to you?

Helou: There is a connection to where I came from, in particular to the Islamic art that comes from Syria as well as that which comes from Egypt and Turkey.

8. Jacobsen: In addition to the Kuwaiti family art collections ongoing at the time, you worked with various collectors about the purchase of “Victorian paintings, European silver, jewellery and Arts and Crafts furniture.”[5] Where did the expertise in these various specialist collector areas come from for you?

Helou: Without sounding immodest, I had a very good eye and good taste although tending to the quirky in paintings and on the Sotheby’s Works of Art course we learned primarily to look at art to appreciate quality and this came in in very good stead when I became a consultant and a collector. I also could spot the quality in objects that seemed undesirable at the time and have since become very desirable like my treen collection, or the fishing collection. I also had friends and colleagues who were specialists and I sought their advice when I wasn’t sure of something.

9. Jacobsen: Of the Kuwaiti family members, who worked the closest with you?

Helou: Some of the daughters of the late Sheikha Badriyah who if I am not mistaken was the first business woman in Kuwait.

10. Jacobsen: What experience most touched your heart in this period of life?

Helou: My antiques shop in Paris was in the heart of Les Halles, very near la rue St Denis which in those days was still full of prostitutes. My father and my mother came to visit soon after I opened the shop. My father always wore a hat and carried worry beads and he loved walking. So they came into the shop, more or less liked it – neither were really interested in antiques – then my father decided to go for a walk. He came back absolutely shocked. He couldn’t imagine his daughter working in such an unsalubrious neighbourhood, and with his hat still on and clicking his worry beads, he would look at me, shake his head and ask: ‘how could you do this my daughter’ referring to opening a shop right next door to a prostitute street. I think he went round the block half a dozen times, and returned with the same pained expression and puzzled question. I remember that moment with amusement and tenderness on how naïve or strict my father was, but also how loving because apart from questioning my wisdom in opening my shop in this neighbourhood he didn’t scold me or tell me to close the shop and move to a better neighbourhood – in those days Arab fathers were really strict with their children and felt they could dictate to them whatever they felt was good for them but my father was strict but once we made our choices however questionable, he let us do what we wanted.

11. Jacobsen: What distinguishes Victorian and European art from other art to you?

Helou: The answer would be too long and complex and I don’t think I could really express it within the context of this interview.

12. Jacobsen: In London, 1986, you brought collections to the Victorian house. Your house became Aladdin’s cave, according to the description. What parts of the collection remain with you to this day (if any), or remain the most precious and close to your heart?

Helou: I loved both my treen collection and the fishing one. I have very few objects that remain with me but most have been sold but if I could rewind the clock I would have liked to keep the fishing cases with the display of fishing tackle but on the other hand I really like the way my space is now, totally uncluttered and serene so no regrets really. I loved my objects when I had them and enjoyed them when I remembered to look at them properly but I don’t miss them now.

13. Jacobsen: Of course, you had the spring, 1999 moment in personal (and professional) life. You sold the house and collection at Christie’s.[6] What brought about this need for dramatic change to sell the house and its associated personal collection?[7]

Helou: I hate routine and I get bored easily and am always looking for ways to make my life more interesting. Recently I thought about why I felt the need to change my life dramatically every few years, and I thought that maybe it has to do with the fact that I don’t have a family. People with children naturally go through changes as the children grow up and leave home, get married, have their own children. I guess I provoke the same changes in my own life but as a single person. It is also a way to stay curious and energetic with each new phase.

Bibliography

  1. [anissa Helou]. (2015, January 15). anissa making tabbouleh 08. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Owtn2IoT_vw.
  2. [AP Archive]. (2015, August 3). Egyptian street food arrives in London. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKE8XOrSfGA.
  3. [Canongate Books]. (2014, September 3). Anissa Helou’s Middle Eastern Meatballs. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFhdtbRTdCM.
  4. [Canongate Books]. (2014, March 8). Chefs who inspired Signe Johansen and Anissa Helou to cook. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMNaSmt2Ths.
  5. [discoverspice]. (2013, March 30). Anissa Helou – art, passion and the Mediterranean!. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTWWOfprVp8.
  6. [Firehorse Showreel]. (2012, August 6). El Chef Yaktachef – Episode 9. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMt-xxkN2jA.
  7. [QatarUK2013]. (2013, November 26). Evenings with Aisha Al-Tamimi and Anissa Helou: Dishes from Qatar. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdAadHJGfwg.
  8. [SallyB2]. (2013, February 20). Anissa Helou On Koshari, And The Rise Of Middle-Eastern Cuisine In London. Retrieved from http://londonist.com/2013/02/koshari.
  9. [sbsarabicvideo’s channel]. (2010, October 26). Karabij and Natif with Anissa Helou. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8iYQWppLUA.
  10. [Sharjah Book Fair]. (2011, December 26). Anissa Helou at Sharjah Book Fair 2011.wmv. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZMYSmzJ_58.
  11. Arabian Business. (2013). Anissa Helou. Retrieved from http://www.arabianbusiness.com/100-most-powerful-arab-women-2013-491497.html?view=profile&itemid=491348#.UVrfMasaeDk.
  12. Arabian Business. (2013). Anissa Helou. Retrieved from http://www.arabianbusiness.com/arabian-business-power-500-2013-493796.html?view=profile&itemid=493832#.VtRbRZwrKM-.
  13. Christie’s. (2016). Christie’s. Retrieved from http://www.christies.com/.
  14. Derhally, M.A. (2013, May 2). Anissa Helou interview: Accidental Cook. Retrieved from http://www.arabianbusiness.com/anissa-helou-interview-accidental-cook-499915.html.
  15. Helou, A. (2016). Anissa Helou. Retrieved from http://www.anissas.com/.
  16. Helou, A. (2014, June 8). A Taste of Syria, In Exile. Retrieved from http://www.newsweek.com/2014/06/13/taste-syria-exile-253808.html.
  17. Helou, A. (2014, May 24). MOVE OVER BROCCOLI, CAULIFLOWER IS THE NEWEST SUPERFOOD. Retrieved from http://www.newsweek.com/2014/05/30/move-over-broccoli-cauliflower-newest-superfood-251878.html.
  18. Hodeib, M. (2014, Septemer 24). Anissa Helou: the elegant chef. Retrieved from http://www.dailystar.com.lb/Life/Lubnan/2014/Sep-24/271726-anissa-helou-the-elegant-chef.ashx.
  19. Jalil, X. (2016, February 9). Women to take centre stage at LLF 2016. Retrieved from http://images.dawn.com/news/1174798.
  20. Martha Stewart. (2016). Cooking Turkish Meat Bread with Lamb. Retrieved from http://www.marthastewart.com/910372/cooking-turkish-meat-bread-lamb.
  21. Martha Stewart. (2016). Moroccan-Style Stuff Bread. Retrieved from http://www.marthastewart.com/910371/moroccan-style-stuffed-mussels.
  22. O’Sullivan, E. (2014, May 3). Anissa Helou’s Laster Supper. Retrieved from http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/may/03/anissa-helou-last-supper-stuffed-chard-recipe.
  23. Robinson, W. (2014, October 03). Chef Anissa Helou’s Expert Tips on What to Do in Abu Dhabi. Retrieved from http://www.cntraveler.com/stories/2014-10-03/chef-anissa-helou-s-expert-tips-on-what-to-do-in-abu-dhabi.
  24. Sarfraz, E. (2016, February 21). All about freedom of expression. Retrieved from http://nation.com.pk/national/21-Feb-2016/all-about-freedom-of-expression.
  25. Shaukat, A. (2016, February 22). Garnish cooking with research, experiment. Retrieved from http://tribune.com.pk/story/1051748/garnish-cooking-with-research-experiment/.
  26. The World Bank. (2016). Middle East and North Africa. Retrieved from http://www.worldbank.org/en/region/mena.
  27. (2016). @anissahelou. Retrieved from https://twitter.com/anissahelou.
  28. Wood, S. (2013, October 15). The food writer Anissa Helou on her new cookbook, Levant. Retrieved from http://www.thenational.ae/lifestyle/food/the-food-writer-anissa-helou-on-her-new-cookbook-levant.
  29. Yang, W. (2014, July 5). First Stop: Anissa Helou’s Istanbul. Retrieved from http://www.culinarybackstreets.com/istanbul/2014/first-stop-10/.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Chef; Cooking Instructor; Culinary Researcher; Food Consultant; Food Writer, Middle Eastern Cuisine; Writer.

[2] Individual Publication Date: July 22, 2018: www.in-sightjournal.com/helou-one; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Photograph courtesy of Anissa Helou.

[4] Helou, A. (2016). About. Retrieved from http://www.anissas.com/about/.

[5] Helou, A. (2016). About. Retrieved from http://www.anissas.com/about/.

[6] Christie’s. (2016). Christie’s. Retrieved from http://www.christies.com/.

[7] About (2016) states:

In the spring of 1999, she decided to change the course of her life. There were no half measures. She sold her house and put her remarkable and idiosyncratic collections up for sale at Christie’s. In the introduction to the catalogue the celebrated art historian and jazz singer, George Melly, described his arrival at her house to dine and to inspect the objects for sale:?‘when the taxi drew up she heard it and through the open door she stood in silhouette instantly recognised by her totally unique ‘coiffure’, an inadequately dainty word for this explosion with its dramatic white streak; the nearest equivalent is in fact that of Elsa Lanchester in ‘The Bride of Frankenstein’. Nothing scary about Miss Helou though. Her hair is more like the personification of her amazing energy. Her smile is as friendly as you can get. She is as lithe as an athlete.

Helou, A. (2016). About. Retrieved from http://www.anissas.com/about/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Anissa Helou (Part Two) [Online].August 2018; 17(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/helou-two.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, August 1). An Interview with Anissa Helou (Part Two). Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/helou-two.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Anissa Helou (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A, August. 2018. <www.in-sightjournal.com/helou-two>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Anissa Helou (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/helou-two.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Anissa Helou (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A (August 2018). www.in-sightjournal.com/helou-two.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Anissa Helou (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/helou-two>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Anissa Helou (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/helou-two.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Anissa Helou (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 17.A (2018):August. 2018. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/helou-two>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Anissa Helou (Part Two) [Internet]. (2018, August; 17(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/helou-two.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-07-22

An Interview with Anissa Helou (Part One)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 17.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Thirteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: July 22, 2018

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,725

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Anissa Helou is a Chef, Cooking Instructor, Culinary Researcher, Food Consultant, Food Writer, Middle Eastern Cuisine, and a Writer. Her new book is entitled Feast: Food of the Islamic World. Her Instagram material can be seen here. She discusses: family background via geography, culture, and language; influence on development; pivotal moments and major cross-sections in early life; interest in the culinary artsAnissa Helou interview: Accidental Cook; a stubborn personality trait; grabbing luck or taking advantage of serendipity; resilience, perceptiveness, and taking advantage of luck in professional life; unfair and unjust conventions; mellowing with age; the empowerment of women; the domination of cooking and chef work by women; the state of empowerment of women in Lebanon; and the next steps for the empowerment of women; representations in the media. 

Keywords: Anissa Helou, chef, cooking, culinary arts, food, Middle Eastern, writer.

Interview with Anissa Helou: Chef; Cooking Instructor; Culinary Researcher; Food Consultant; Food Writer, Middle Eastern Cuisine; Writer (Part One)[1],[2],[3]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: In terms of geography, culture, and language, where does your family background reside?

Anissa Helou: My mother is from Lebanon, from Beirut although both her mother and father are from mountain villages while my father is from Syria, from a mountain village called Mashta el-Helou.

2. Jacobsen: How did this influence development?

Helou: I grew up in Lebanon and lived there until I was 21, and during that time I spent my summers in my grandmother’s village in Reshmaya and parts in my father’s in Mashta el-Helou where I witnessed food being prepared, grown and preserved and I assume this fuelled my passion for food from that early age, as well as providing me naturally with a deep enough knowledge about foodways.

3. Jacobsen: What about influences and pivotal moments in major cross-sections of early life including kindergarten, elementary school, junior high school, high school, and undergraduate studies (college/university)?

Helou: I didn’t go to university but did specialized courses such as a short interior design course at Inchbald and a full course in expertise in works of art at Sotheby’s in London. Both, and especially the latter, have had a profound influence on my sense of aesthetics in relation to everything including food. Watching my paternal aunt in Syria make tannur bread, churn butter and make malban, a kind of grape leather as well as killing chickens and milking cows have given me an abiding interest in seeing how food is produced and made.

4. Jacobsen: Where did interest in culinary arts originate for you?

Helou: Within my family as briefly explained above. My father was an austere man but he appreciated good food and I am not sure that he knew about my mother’s culinary talent when he married her (he was initially taken by her amazing beauty!) but when he found out that she was an excellent cook, he would only eat her food unless he was travelling and she always cooked proper meals. Her version of fast food was grilled pork chops and home made fries, and salad of course as no Lebanese meal could be complete without at least one salad! My grandmother was also an amazing cook, and she always cooked elaborate meals for us when we visited and my Syrian aunt grew her produce on the farm, had her own animals and prepared everything at home from scratch. So not only did I grow up on excellent food but I also everything prepared at home and I was everyone’s kitchen pest, not only because I was a curious child but also a greedy one. Not to mention that both Lebanon and Syria are countries with a very strong food culture.

5. Jacobsen: In Anissa Helou interview: Accidental Cook (2013), the interview describes some of your history, as follows:

…a long winding road that began with her rebellion against convention in Lebanon where she grew up after finishing school… “After I finished school my father wouldn’t let me go,” Helou recalls. “Me being very stubborn I said to him good if you don’t let me go and study abroad I’m not going to study. So I refused to go to the American University of Beirut (AUB) which was foolish. My obsession at that time was to leave Beirut, I didn’t want to stay”… “I was trying to find ways of breaking that barrier with my father but I didn’t have money so I couldn’t go against him,” she says. “Two weeks later I realised I was a maid on those planes so I wasn’t really happy to do that job but at the same time it was a question of pride after having made such a fuss. So I stayed in the job.”… As part of her feminist outlook Helou didn’t like the idea of cooking. She refused to cook for her companions… “I was interested in food as a hobby and certainly not as a profession,” Helou says. “But once a chance presents itself then you make in a way your luck and you grab it and turn into something very positive.”[4]

How does this “stubborn” personality trait connect to the present in terms of a possible consistent characteristic?

Helou: It makes me pursue what I want regardless of the obstacles, whether from people or circumstances.

6. Jacobsen: What about the “grabbing” of “luck” or taking advantage of serendipity – not everyone sees these opportunities in life?

Helou: I have a very flexible approach to life and a lot of curiosity and do not mind changing tack at the drop if a hat (not quite as I think through whatever I wish to move onto) so if an opportunity arises that appeals to me I grab it even if it means changing things dramatically.

7. Jacobsen: How might this grit/resilience/stubbornness and perceptiveness with respect to taking advantage of luck have influenced professional life?

Helou: I guess it helps me be successful. My perceptiveness has made me spot trends ahead of others, as with my fishing collection or getting into food, or buying my loft in Shoreditch, and the grit and resilience/stubbornness have made pursue my goals despite either being dissuaded from doing so or finding obstacles in my way.

8. Jacobsen: What “convention” seemed unjust and unfair to you at the time?

Helou: I hate conventions so I probably wouldn’t consider any fair!

9. Jacobsen: What about now?

Helou: I guess I have mellowed with age but I still have my curiosity about almost everything unless it is boring or senseless and my flexibility of thinking. I may not rebel so forcefully now but I won’t give up on what I want.

10. Jacobsen: The interview delves into a feminist perspective. Akin to the interview with Mina Holland entitled Chefs who inspired Signe Johansen and Anissa Helou to cook (2014), you discussed something that seems related to this. That is, the relationship of personal female heroes/heroines and the empowerment of women.[5] In fact, in the interview with Mina Holland, you made an astute and poignant comment about the domination of cooking by men in the public and by women in the home too. You said, “It’s the men who, kind of, dominate restaurant kitchens, but at home it’s the women in both the East and West.”[6] Does this relate to the empowerment of women?

Helou: Well, actually in the home, it is somewhat a type of enslavement because even if the woman works outside and earns as much as the man, she is in general the one expected to put the food on the table as it were. On the other hand the homecook is also the guardian of food culture and if, as in traditional cultures, she passes it on to her daughter and her daughter does the same, they are then heroines because they are safekeeping a very important part of a people’s culture and heritage, so, I always encourage young girls now to learn how to cook, and not necessarily to feed their family but to acquire a very important lore that may go missing once the grandmother and mother are gone.

11. Jacobsen: If you observe this domination in the restaurant, or public, kitchens by men and the home kitchens by women across the East/West divide, what seems like the source of it – in history, in socio-cultural and economic conditions, and so on?

Helou: As for men cooks in restaurants and on the street, it is the continuation of ‘it’s still a man’s world!’

12. Jacobsen: What is the state of the empowerment of women in Lebanon now?

Helou: Much better than when I grew up there. Many more are allowed to set up home on their own even if they are not married, there is not so much pressure on them to marry and start families and almost all of them work. Mind you becoming a professional was not an issue when I was there. In fact, my father insisted that we should all have an education and be independent but within the conventional norms of marrying and setting up a family and he was quite upset when I refused to go to university but in the end I made it up to him. And there are quite a few who have now entered the food world professionally, and quite successfully, both as restaurateurs or entrepreneurs.

13. Jacobsen: What seem like the next steps for the empowerment of women in cooking, in Lebanon, in the Middle East-North Africa (MENA) region, and the world?

Helou: Encourage more of them to become independent. In fact there is a definite move towards more women in the kitchen and running their own business which is very encouraging.

14. Jacobsen: What seems like the greatest emotional struggle in personal life?

Helou: I can’t really think of any. I don’t have to struggle with much as I have no one stopping me from what I want to do and I personally have no personal conflicts with myself!

15. Jacobsen: You have numerous audio-visual representations online.[7],[8],[9],[10],[11],[12],[13],[14],[15],[16],[17] In addition to this broad range of interviews and presentations online, you have numerous written/typed productions including articles, reports, and interviews in the media too.[18],[19],[20],[21],[22],[23],[24],[25],[26],[27],[28] In fact, hundreds of articles exist in the world wide web with authorship by, or mention of, you. What responsibilities come with extensive exposure in various media?

Helou: Primarily being an inspiration and a good example to the younger generation, especially those who want to get into food, and not be an embarrassment to either myself, or friends and family, and of course to those I work with.

Bibliography

  1. [anissa Helou]. (2015, January 15). anissa making tabbouleh 08. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Owtn2IoT_vw.
  2. [AP Archive]. (2015, August 3). Egyptian street food arrives in London. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKE8XOrSfGA.
  3. [Canongate Books]. (2014, September 3). Anissa Helou’s Middle Eastern Meatballs. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFhdtbRTdCM.
  4. [Canongate Books]. (2014, March 8). Chefs who inspired Signe Johansen and Anissa Helou to cook. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMNaSmt2Ths.
  5. [discoverspice]. (2013, March 30). Anissa Helou – art, passion and the Mediterranean!. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTWWOfprVp8.
  6. [Firehorse Showreel]. (2012, August 6). El Chef Yaktachef – Episode 9. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMt-xxkN2jA.
  7. [QatarUK2013]. (2013, November 26). Evenings with Aisha Al-Tamimi and Anissa Helou: Dishes from Qatar. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdAadHJGfwg.
  8. [SallyB2]. (2013, February 20). Anissa Helou On Koshari, And The Rise Of Middle-Eastern Cuisine In London. Retrieved from http://londonist.com/2013/02/koshari.
  9. [sbsarabicvideo’s channel]. (2010, October 26). Karabij and Natif with Anissa Helou. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8iYQWppLUA.
  10. [Sharjah Book Fair]. (2011, December 26). Anissa Helou at Sharjah Book Fair 2011.wmv. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZMYSmzJ_58.
  11. Arabian Business. (2013). Anissa Helou. Retrieved from http://www.arabianbusiness.com/100-most-powerful-arab-women-2013-491497.html?view=profile&itemid=491348#.UVrfMasaeDk.
  12. Arabian Business. (2013). Anissa Helou. Retrieved from http://www.arabianbusiness.com/arabian-business-power-500-2013-493796.html?view=profile&itemid=493832#.VtRbRZwrKM-.
  13. Christie’s. (2016). Christie’s. Retrieved from http://www.christies.com/.
  14. Derhally, M.A. (2013, May 2). Anissa Helou interview: Accidental Cook. Retrieved from http://www.arabianbusiness.com/anissa-helou-interview-accidental-cook-499915.html.
  15. Helou, A. (2016). Anissa Helou. Retrieved from http://www.anissas.com/.
  16. Helou, A. (2014, June 8). A Taste of Syria, In Exile. Retrieved from http://www.newsweek.com/2014/06/13/taste-syria-exile-253808.html.
  17. Helou, A. (2014, May 24). MOVE OVER BROCCOLI, CAULIFLOWER IS THE NEWEST SUPERFOOD. Retrieved from http://www.newsweek.com/2014/05/30/move-over-broccoli-cauliflower-newest-superfood-251878.html.
  18. Hodeib, M. (2014, Septemer 24). Anissa Helou: the elegant chef. Retrieved from http://www.dailystar.com.lb/Life/Lubnan/2014/Sep-24/271726-anissa-helou-the-elegant-chef.ashx.
  19. Jalil, X. (2016, February 9). Women to take centre stage at LLF 2016. Retrieved from http://images.dawn.com/news/1174798.
  20. Martha Stewart. (2016). Cooking Turkish Meat Bread with Lamb. Retrieved from http://www.marthastewart.com/910372/cooking-turkish-meat-bread-lamb.
  21. Martha Stewart. (2016). Moroccan-Style Stuff Bread. Retrieved from http://www.marthastewart.com/910371/moroccan-style-stuffed-mussels.
  22. O’Sullivan, E. (2014, May 3). Anissa Helou’s Laster Supper. Retrieved from http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/may/03/anissa-helou-last-supper-stuffed-chard-recipe.
  23. Robinson, W. (2014, October 03). Chef Anissa Helou’s Expert Tips on What to Do in Abu Dhabi. Retrieved from http://www.cntraveler.com/stories/2014-10-03/chef-anissa-helou-s-expert-tips-on-what-to-do-in-abu-dhabi.
  24. Sarfraz, E. (2016, February 21). All about freedom of expression. Retrieved from http://nation.com.pk/national/21-Feb-2016/all-about-freedom-of-expression.
  25. Shaukat, A. (2016, February 22). Garnish cooking with research, experiment. Retrieved from http://tribune.com.pk/story/1051748/garnish-cooking-with-research-experiment/.
  26. The World Bank. (2016). Middle East and North Africa. Retrieved from http://www.worldbank.org/en/region/mena.
  27. (2016). @anissahelou. Retrieved from https://twitter.com/anissahelou.
  28. Wood, S. (2013, October 15). The food writer Anissa Helou on her new cookbook, Levant. Retrieved from http://www.thenational.ae/lifestyle/food/the-food-writer-anissa-helou-on-her-new-cookbook-levant.
  29. Yang, W. (2014, July 5). First Stop: Anissa Helou’s Istanbul. Retrieved from http://www.culinarybackstreets.com/istanbul/2014/first-stop-10/.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Chef; Cooking Instructor; Culinary Researcher; Food Consultant; Food Writer, Middle Eastern Cuisine; Writer.

[2] Individual Publication Date: July 22, 2018: www.in-sightjournal.com/helou-one; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Photograph courtesy of Anissa Helou.

[4] Derhally, M.A. (2013, May 2). Anissa Helou interview: Accidental Cook. Retrieved from http://www.arabianbusiness.com/anissa-helou-interview-accidental-cook-499915.html.

[5] [Canongate Books]. (2014, March 8).  Chefs who inspired Signe Johansen and Anissa Helou to cook. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMNaSmt2Ths.

[6] [Canongate Books]. (2014, March 8).  Chefs who inspired Signe Johansen and Anissa Helou to cook. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMNaSmt2Ths.

[7] [anissa Helou]. (2015, January 15). anissa making tabbouleh 08. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Owtn2IoT_vw.

[8] [AP Archive]. (2015, August 3). Egyptian street food arrives in London. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKE8XOrSfGA.

[9] [Canongate Books]. (2014, September 3). Anissa Helou’s Middle Eastern Meatballs. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFhdtbRTdCM.

[10] [Canongate Books]. (2014, March 8).  Chefs who inspired Signe Johansen and Anissa Helou to cook. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMNaSmt2Ths.

[11] [discoverspice]. (2013, March 30). Anissa Helou – art, passion and the Mediterranean!. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTWWOfprVp8.

[12] [Firehorse Showreel]. (2012, August 6). El Chef Yaktachef – Episode 9. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMt-xxkN2jA.

[13] [QatarUK2013]. (2013, November 26). Evenings with Aisha Al-Tamimi and Anissa Helou: Dishes from Qatar. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdAadHJGfwg.

[14] [sbsarabicvideo’s channel]. (2010, October 26). Karabij and Natif with Anissa Helou. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8iYQWppLUA.

[15] [Sharjah Book Fair]. (2011, December 26). Anissa Helou at Sharjah Book Fair 2011.wmv. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZMYSmzJ_58.

[16] Martha Stewart. (2016). Cooking Turkish Meat Bread with Lamb. Retrieved from http://www.marthastewart.com/910372/cooking-turkishmeatbread-lamb.

[17] Martha Stewart. (2016). Moroccan-Style Stuff Bread. Retrieved from http://www.marthastewart.com/910371/moroccan-style-stuffed-mussels.

[18] [SallyB2]. (2013, February 20). Anissa Helou On Koshari, And The Rise Of Middle-Eastern Cuisine In London. Retrieved from http://londonist.com/2013/02/koshari. 

[19] Derhally, M.A. (2013, May 2). Anissa Helou interview: Accidental Cook. Retrieved from http://www.arabianbusiness.com/anissa-helou-interview-accidental-cook-499915.html.

[20] Helou, A. (2014, May 24). MOVE OVER BROCCOLI, CAULIFLOWER IS THE NEWEST SUPERFOOD. Retrieved from http://www.newsweek.com/2014/05/30/move-over-broccoli-cauliflower-newest-superfood-251878.html.

[21] Jalil, X. (2016, February 9). Women to take centre stage at LLF 2016. Retrieved from http://images.dawn.com/news/1174798.

[22] O’Sullivan, E. (2014, May 3). Anissa Helou’s Laster Supper. Retrieved from http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/may/03/anissa-helou-last-supper-stuffed-chard-recipe.

[23] Robinson, W. (2014, October 03). Chef Anissa Helou’s Expert Tips on What to Do in Abu Dhabi. Retrieved from http://www.cntraveler.com/stories/2014-10-03/chef-anissa-helou-s-expert-tips-on-what-to-do-in-abu-dhabi.

[24] Sarfraz, E. (2016, February 21). All about freedom of expression. Retrieved from http://nation.com.pk/national/21-Feb2016/all-about-freedomof-expression.

[25] Shaukat, A. (2016, February 22). Garnish cooking with research, experiment. Retrieved from http://tribune.com.pk/story/1051748/garnish-cooking-with-research-experiment/.

[26] Tahseen, N. (2016, February 22). http://nation.com.pk/lahore/22-Feb-2016/iqbal-islam-aesthetics-and-post

colonialism. Retrieved from http://nation.com.pk/lahore/22-Feb-2016/iqbal-islam-aesthetics-and-post-colonialism.

[27] Wood, S. (2013, October 15). The food writer Anissa Helou on her new cookbook, Levant. Retrieved from http://www.thenational.ae/lifestyle/food/the-food-writer-anissa-helou-on-her-new-cookbook-levant.

[28] Yang, W. (2014, July 5). First Stop: Anissa Helou’s Istanbul. Retrieved from http://www.culinarybackstreets.com/istanbul/2014/first-stop-10/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Anissa Helou (Part One) [Online].July 2018; 17(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/helou-one.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, July 22). An Interview with Anissa Helou (Part One). Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/helou-one.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Anissa Helou (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A, July. 2018. <www.in-sightjournal.com/helou-one>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Anissa Helou (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/helou-one.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Anissa Helou (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A (July 2018). www.in-sightjournal.com/helou-one.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Anissa Helou (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/helou-one>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Anissa Helou (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/helou-one.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Anissa Helou (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 17.A (2018):July. 2018. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/helou-one>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Anissa Helou (Part One) [Internet]. (2018, July; 17(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/helou-one.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-07-22

An Interview with Cory Efram Doctorow (Part Three)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 17.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Thirteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: July 22, 2018

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 5,356

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Cory Doctorow is an Activist, Blogger, Journalist, and Science Fiction Writer. He discusses: the importance of intelligent, considerate, and ethical government; American politics; fixing American politics; new media and American political dysfunction; poliics getting potentially less awful or not; technology and politics in the determination of America’s future; changing American politics to facilitate America being a technological innovator; China and India, and the possibility of America becoming a backwater country; Donald Trump and Idiocracy; hope; upcoming collaborative projects for 2016; upcoming solo projects; recommended authors; and final feelings or thoughts.

Keywords: American politics, China, Cory Efram Doctorow, democracy, Donald Trump, India.

Interview with Cory Efram Doctorow: Blogger, Journalist, and Science Fiction Writer (Part Three)[1],[2],[3]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview. *

*This interview was conducted in two parts with the first on April 12, 2016 and the second on July 1, 2016. *

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Following through with the technological changes and shifts that are happening, what remains the increased importance of intelligent, considerate, and ethical government and leadership given the state of accelerating technological change?

Cory Efram Doctorow: The thing that strikes me about all of our technology is that it is most exciting when it is lowering transaction cost. I think that’s the purpose of institutions and governments. It is to create structures that lower transaction costs that allows more people to work on projects and, therefore, to work on things that are more ambitious. The thing about transaction costs going lower and lower in monotonic ways because of technological change. On the one hand, it suggests that we need hierarchies for fewer and fewer things.

So, maybe, we do not need an Encyclopedia Britannica management structure to create an Encyclopedia Britannica. On the other hand, it suggests that our existing bureaucratic institutions can do more than they ever did before, and so, maybe, a boy scout troupe can do more than run a bake sale. They could run the power infrastructure for a whole neighborhood or a maker space that would have previously been industrial and massive like Lockheed Martin.

I think that we’ll see a bifurcation as technology lowers transaction costs. On the one hand, we’ll have fewer bureaucracies doing more and more ambitious things, or lighter-weight bureaucracies doing more and more ambitious things. On the other hand, we’ll have existing bureaucracies massively expanding the scope of their capacity and doing a lot more. If you think about the US surveillance apparatus, that’s a good example of it, getting 1 million people to surveil the whole planet earth is a significant accomplishment.

2. Jacobsen: Is American politics irretrievably broken?

Doctorow: I am reluctant to say anything is irretrievable, not least because it is not a falsifiable hypothesis. It may not be retrievable. Now, it is a mess. However, it is not unique for it. There are many political systems around the world in a lot of turmoil: Greece, the UK, and France.

3. Jacobsen: What would it take to fix American politics?

Doctorow: It is clear that there are some structural issues with the two-party system. As all good Hamilton: An American Musical watchers know the party system was back formed on what was meant to be a non-partisan system, it is neither one nor the other thing. The two-party system makes it easier for money to dominate and for influence to dominate, which has been responsible for many of the crises. If we could reduce the influence of money, it might help us reform the two-party system. If we could reform the two-party system, it could reduce the influence of money. That is, on the one hand, it is hopeful. If we could do one, we can do the other. On the other hand, it might mean we cannot do one without the other. We do not seem to be able to do either of them. That is disheartening.

There are some easy wins, which we could have such as campaign finance reform and repealing Citizen’s United would make a big difference. I am excited by what Zach Exley and his colleagues are doing. He was part of the Sanders campaign. They would not agree with this characterization, but I think they are creating a third party and a common platform that is a reformist platform similar to the Sanders platform. They are recruiting 400 or 500 people to run on that platform as Democrats and Republicans in local races, where there are contestable seats. They are using a common fundraising interface for all of those campaigns.

So, you will donate to Brand New Congress. It will go to all 400 or 500 races. The candidates will be freed from having to fundraising and the influence of fundraising. The idea is to have this bipartisan group who all enter congress in a mass and who are in substantial accord on issues that the political consensus has been deadlocked on, which has exacerbated the privilege of a small minority over the vast majority and the lack of evidence-based policy that arose from it. That’s exciting. I do not know if it will work, but it points to a path for something. Exley has pointed to a series of movies since he was the IT, technology, and community person for the Dean campaign. He has gone from strength to strength with each campaign and taken it further. Maybe, he would take it further still this time. That would be cool

4. Jacobsen: How much of a role do relatively new media – the internet, etc. – play in American political dysfunction?

Doctorow: I think a substantial one. The Astroturf has gotten simpler since the internet came along. It is one thing to have false flag operations that we have seen in previous years. You might get fliers stuck through doorways saying, “Whitey does not want you to vote! Make sure you vote on November the 5th” However, the vote was on November the 4th. So, people would stay home from the polls. Now, with Astroturf, there is a lot more of that thing. It can be automated. When H.B. Gary was breached by Anonymous, they were a military contractor and the air force had a bid out to create what they called “Persona Management Software,” which would allow one operative to control up to 20 online personas.

The Russian, so-called Russian, troll factory does this at an industrial scale on behalf of the Kremlin. In China, there is a combination of the Fifty Cent Army, who are people paid half a renminbi (about a 16th of a dollar) for a patriotic post. In addition to that, all government employees were expected to spend a certain minimum number of hours posting pro-government messages that changed the subject when people complained about corruption or derailed the discussion, or called into question the credibility of people who were posting critical material.

It turned out to be an extremely effective strategy, much more so than The Great Firewall. It is the great locus of political control over the discourse itself. The promise of digital media is that it is less, in theory, amenable to being captured by a small number of politically on-the-inside corporations and wealthy people. In practice, there has been an enormous amount of concentration and monopolization, and in the digital world too. There was an Elizabeth Warren speech too, where the extent to which the monopolization of every sector has come into the internet sector.

We have one cable company, Comcast, which serves a crazy percentage, like 80% of American households. We have effectively one search engine. We have approximately one-and-a-half phone systems. This monopolization has created huge loci of control, which has dashed the hopes of people that were hoping the internet would be used to decentralize media ownership and give more control to individual voices.

5. Jacobsen: Will politics get less awful as people become better able to resist being manipulated via new media?

Doctorow: I do not know. I do not think that politics is awful because of manipulation. I think politics is awful because of inequality. I think that when you have people scrambling for not enough, when anything that you gain is something that I lose then you have this awful tenor that plays in politics. Everyone turns on everybody else. I was thinking about it this week. I called it an iterated version of the Ultimatum Game. In the Ultimatum Game, it is this behavioral economics game. The experimenter designates two subjects. One subject is the banker. The other one is the person who takes or leaves the offer.

The banker gets, say, $10 and is asked to split that $10 any way he wants, and then the other person gets to accept the split, where they both get to keep whatever the banker has offered, or reject the split, in which case they both get nothing. The “economically rational” thing in this is to take even a penny if the banker offers it. But in practice, a, widespread finding is that people will reject anything that is materially unfair or anything that is far different from a 50/50 split. And spitefully cost the banker and themselves all of the money rather than accept an unfair bargain, I think that we’ve been in this iterative version of that game, where we have been asked to accept small fractions of the large pie that the top elites have been keeping for themselves and been told that the economically rational this is for us to accept a little and let them have more.

One of the key ways you see this reflected is if you see people discuss poverty as the same problem as it used to be. The measure of poverty is the dollar-a-day measure. The UN version of this. Sometimes, it is an inflation-adjusted dollar-a-day. That dollar-a-day, when it began, gave you a much worse quality of life than now because of technology, the Green Revolution, and cheaper food have changed what a dollar gets you. A dollar-a-day is not a death sentence in the way it was 50/60 years ago. So, we growing inequality, but the inequality does not “matter as much” because the crumbs go a lot further than they did 60 years ago. It does not matter that we’ve become unable. The Ultimatum Game suggests that it does. We are animated by a sense of the unfairness of having so much less than others who have rigged the game so they can keep more than we do, even if the fraction that we keep makes us more comfortable than ever.

I think the ugliness seen in politics today with the racial bias, the xenophobia, are versions or expressions of this conundrum. In particular, the Brexit and Trump vote, or Trump support, is about people who understand that this will be bad for them and their country, but who do not care because it is a way to punish those who got everything when they got nothing. It is not necessarily xenophobia, even though xenophobia is a motif that it returns to and motivates a lot of people. It is a combination and xenophobia and spitefulness. A willingness to do whatever it takes to get revenge on the other guy, even if it hurts you too.

6. Jacobsen: In determining America’s future, how does technology compare to politics? To put it another way, is technology more likely than politics to save America? Does America need saving?

Doctorow: If America is saved, if America has a future, it will be because politics gets better. Right now, the politics is unsustainable. There isn’t a future in which we have less technology. It follows that we are not going to have a better future unless we have a future with better technology in it. It is not the one saves the other. Rather, it is impossible to imagine that a future that the technology is much worse than its opacity, potential for control, and so on. It is like ice.

It is hard to imagine that we will get a future with politics getting better and the technology remains worse. It is probably the case that we need technological reform as a necessary, but insufficient, condition for political reform. There is this interrelation because some of the things that make technology bad are political. We need politics to fix technology and better technology to fix the politics.

7. Jacobsen: How does American politics need to change to facilitate America continuing to be a leading technological innovator?

Doctorow: Right now, American technological implementation obstacles are the regulatory capture and monopolistic practices of technology firms. There are two major exemplars of shitty America policy on technology. One is the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, which is 1980s anti-hacking statute that makes it a felony to do anything that exceeds your authorization on a remote system. That’s been interpreted by prosecutors and law makers to mean that if you violate terms of service you commit a felony. A lot of what has made technology super competitive, and therefore super innovative, is the ability to do adversarial compatibility.

You want to make a service that inter-operates with another one. That other one does not want you to inter-operate. On behalf of the user of that service, you make a tool that connects to the service and odes something. Maybe, you have a printer for a company like DEC that only talks to DEC servers. A company like Sun comes along and says, “Okay, we are going to reverse engineer the protocol that DEC uses to control its printers. We are going to make a compatible stack for Sun workstation. So, you can control your legacy DEC printers with your Sun workstations, meaning that your switching costs for throwing away your DEC work station gets lower because you do not have to throw away your deck printers when you do so.”

Under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, if that printer is controlled through the cloud, which means that it is controlled on a server that you do not own or on a leased server, or some other component that requires you to click through some terms and service in order to access that machine and achieve that otherwise extreme commonplace and legitimate technological and commercial activity, then it becomes a felony. The more out software is delivered us services. The more our data is controlled through the cloud. The more this stuff happens on a machine we do not own or have a lesser relationship with, then the harder it is to achieve that compatibility.

Another showpiece of shitty American technology law is the DMCA in section 12.01, which prohibits reverse engineering and removing technological controls to a copyrighted work – even if you’re doing it for a lawful purpose.

It is common to refill an inkjet cartridge and stick it back in a printer or make compatible inkjet cartridges. If you put some software to the inkjet cartridge the interacts with the printer so that when the printer sees it, then it does some basic check so that it is talking to an original cartridge rather than a third party cartridge. Defeating that, it becomes a felony punishable by five years in prison and a $500,000 fine for first offense because that’s an access control that restricts access to a copyrighted work, which is the operating system embedded in the cartridge. You have committed a terrible crime. This allows companies to monopolize the ecosystem around the products and prevent the provision and services that gore their ox. Their business model.

It allows them to fine business models that arrogate to themselves that otherwise in law and practice would be the territory of their customers. The poster child for this is John Deere tractors. They have torque sensors on their leading wheels. They conduct soil-density surveys, which are centimeter accurate on the farmer’s fields that they are driven through. The data about your field, which is useful if you want to broadcast seeds automatically into the field. That data is locked up in the tractor. The tractor has an access control system, which limits the software that contains the data. The data is not copyrightable, but the software that contains the data is copyrightable.

You cannot get access to the data without defeating the access controls, which is a felony. John Deere sells the data back to – you the farmer. You the farmer have to buy your own soil density data that you generate by driving your tractor around your field from John Deere. John Deere does not sell it to you directly. They sell it to you as a bundle with seed from a company like Monsanto. This value that would normally be the province of the owner of the device becomes valued at respite to manufacturer. It is easy to see why manufacturers would want to do this. From an economic perspective, this is pure rent seeking. There is no rational economic story that says this is better of the economy, for innovation, for farmers, for the sector, to allow a firm to use the power of the state to expropriate value from the property of its customers and arrogate it to themselves.

They will never it as efficiently as a market could or their customers. So, this undermines real market driven innovation. It increases monopolism. When you then get into world, where the only way to go to the capital market these days – one of the only ways – is through an IPO, it is mostly driven by acquisition. The way that you become successful, that way that your investors get an exit from your company is positioning your company to be bought by one of the incumbents. So, everything is being constructed to make the incumbents as powerful as possible and the incumbents are sitting on these huge mountains of cash based on, in part, shitty tax policy and the practice of shoring all of their money offshore and then periodically repatriating it during tax holidays.

Paul Ryan and Hilary Clinton have mooted tax holidays for tax cheating companies that have stored billions offshore. They’ve said that they will let them repatriate it at 5% rather than 30%, which they would be normally expected to be pay on those profits. So, these firms are super cash rich. They use that money to snap up other firms that have themselves been constructed solely for the purpose of being acquired by them. It is this ‘lather, rinse, repeat’ of monopolization that reduces consumer choice, reduces competition, and also gives more surplus to these firms to buy policy. So, Google and Apple are both supporting TPP and TTIP, which would, in both cases, help them continue to maintain their dominance by suppressing new entrants and suppressing competition.

8. Jacobsen: With some of those things in mind, will America become a backwater country – trailing countries such as China and India in technology?

Doctorow: Both of those countries have their own problems. Neither America nor China nor India are particular paragons of competition, transparency, or evidence-based policy; although, India did good on the net neutrality front. They aren’t good on censorship. They have one of the recurring problems of an attempting to address deep social problems with quick political fixes is that oftentimes you get these hasty laws that are allegedly suppressing racial bias, but which quickly become an all-purpose tool for suppressing dissent and which are then never effective at undoing the underlying social problems that gave rise to the racial bias. So, India’s caste system is a real terrible travesty and has been used for years to suppress whole populations.

Certain kinds of racialized dialogue are prohibited on the Indian internet, which creates this whole mechanism for widespread trivial censorship with the rule of law and that has become the go-to mechanism for suppressing political dissent. Meanwhile, the problems of the scheduled castes. The people who are supposed to be protected by these hate speech laws go on unabated because the hate speech is not the cause of the problems, but the expression of their problems and suppressing the speech does not change the problem itself.

9. Jacobsen: Let’s move on to Donald Trump, does Donald Trump represent a trend – is he the first of many Idiocracy-style major candidates – or is he an anomaly?

Doctorow: He’s not even the first in international terms. He is of a piece with Marine Le Pen and the Golden Dawn leaders, and Nigel Farage (certainly) and Boris Johnson. Although, in some ways, Johnson is who Trump wants to be; he’s from old money, not new money. He’s classy and witty, not inarticulate and thuggish. There are a lot of things we can say about Boris, but we won’t call him a short-fingered vulgarian. There are a lot of politicians that look a lot like him and appeal to the same instincts. Hungary has had a Trumpian government to its great detriment. I do not know that Trump is the first, but he’s part of a trend.

10. Jacobsen: As a science fiction author, you hesitate to pitch optimistic or pessimistic projections. Rather, you propose hope. Why hope?

Doctorow: Because the alternative is paralysis. I am a great believer in hill climbing. It gets us into a decentralized view of organization and progress. Hill climbing is all about using heuristics. The first casualty of any plan of attack or of any battle always ends up being the plan of attack – spending time figuring out all of the steps that I might take ends up being wasted time because as soon as you start down the path you discover new facts that you weren’t cognitive enough that when you built that expensive exhaustive plan. And so I am a great believer of figuring out what the next step might be and then taking that step and then reassessing and seeing whether you inched your way in the right direction or if you should take a step back and try somewhere else, and though it feels like you’re backtracking. You’re still net ahead of the game as compared to spending all of your time trying to figure out in enormous detail exactly what you plan on doing.

11. Jacobsen: Any upcoming collaborative projects for 2016?

Doctorow: I am working on this giant ten-year project to try and kill all of the DRM in the world. That’s all collaborative. I am trying to build a coalition right now. Security researchers who oppose the world wide web consortia addition of DRM to web standards. As we try to build a similar coalition of technology and civil society groups from the developing world to join the W3C and work on the issue from that direction, these are all intensely collaborative projects.

12. Jacobsen: Any upcoming solo projects?

Doctorow: I have a novel and picture book coming out in 2017. The novel is called Walkaway. I called it a utopian disaster novel. It is a novel in which after disaster strikes people behave themselves well, and get on with the business of rebuilding rather than turning on one another. The conflict in the novel comes from the people who are certain that their fellow humans cannot be trusted pre-emptively. I call it “eating your seat mate before your plane crashes, in case.” The people who believe that people are generally good and will help given the chance, and I think also those worldviews are loosely correlated with at least well and privilege. Anthropologists talk about the idea of elite panic and the conviction on the part of the great and the good. That given the chance, those who have much less than them will come and take away their riches and punish them for having them.

At least some people hypothesize that because that’s what they would do in the situation if it were reversed, I also have this picture book of a kid called Poesy who on her first birthday fights monster using repurposed field expedient weapons built out of girly toys that she has lying around her room called Poesy the Monster Slayer. I am now noodling with ideas about another book for adults called Crypto Wars. It would start a minor character from the other book called Masha.

13. Jacobsen: Any recommended authors?

Doctorow: That book I mentioned called Austerity ecology, and the collapse porn addicts. There is also a debut novel coming out by Ada Palmer called Two Like the Lightning that I rate as a transformative, disruptive new science fiction. She is a historian by trade and brings a good historical perspective to the way that she thinks about the future. It is not like any novel I have ever read. It is remarkable and ambitious. I am great fan a writer named Steven Brust. He’s a fantasy writer who is also a Trotskyist. It is only the Marxist fantasy writers that ever get to write ratios of vassals to lords in their high fantasy. He plays with this idea and attacks it from a lot of different angles. He’s been writing a single series since I was about 13 years old. And he’s closing in on the end of it, and it is a remarkable literal life’s work that he’s put in there. The books keep getting better.

14. Jacobsen: Any feelings or thoughts in conclusion?

Doctorow: Hookem Horns! Go, Braves! I do not know. [Laughter] I do not have any sporting affiliation. We did not talk about the US election, but, obviously, there is something going on there. And also the rise of both left- and right-wing populist movements around the world are something I am paying close attention to – from Syriza and Golden Dawn, to Podemos, to neo-fascists, to Trump and Sanders, and Corbin, and even the leadership race with the NDP in Canada where the federal party has adopted Naomi Klein’s Leap Manifesto from scientific leaders like David Suzuki have signed on to and the provincial NDP from Alberta – which is the only one controlling a regional government – is proposing to secede from the federal NDP because they represent energy producing oil territory and the Leap manifesto is down on carbon.

15. Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Mr. Doctorow.

Bibliography

  1. Doctorow, C. (2016). Crap Hound. Retrieved from craphound.com.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Activist; Blogger; Journalist; Science Fiction Author.

[2] Individual Publication Date: July 22, 2018: www.in-sightjournal.com/doctorow-three; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Photograph courtesy of Cory Efram Doctorow and Jonathan Worth Creative Commons Attribution 3.0.

[4] About Cory Doctorow (2015) states:

                Cory Doctorow (craphound.com) is a science fiction author, activist, journalist and blogger — the co-editor of Boing Boing (boingboing.net) and the author of many books, most recently IN REAL LIFE, a graphic novel; INFORMATION DOES NOT WANT TO BE FREE, a book about earning a living in the Internet age, and HOMELAND, the award-winning, best-selling sequel to the 2008 YA novel LITTLE BROTHER.

            One paragraph:

                Cory Doctorow (craphound.com) is a science fiction author, activist, journalist and blogger — the co-editor of Boing Boing (boingboing.net) and the author of the YA graphic novel IN REAL LIFE, the nonfiction business book INFORMATION DOES NOT WANT TO BE FREE< and young adult novels like HOMELAND, PIRATE CINEMA and LITTLE BROTHER and novels for adults like RAPTURE OF THE NERDS and MAKERS. He works for the Electronic Frontier Foundation and co-founded the UK Open Rights Group. Born in Toronto, Canada, he now lives in Los Angeles.

            Full length:

                Cory Doctorow (craphound.com) is a science fiction novelist, blogger and technology activist. He is the co-editor of the popular weblog Boing Boing (boingboing.net), and a contributor to The Guardian, Publishers Weekly, Wired, and many other newspapers, magazines and websites. He is a special consultant to the Electronic Frontier Foundation (eff.org), a non-profit civil liberties group that defends freedom in technology law, policy, standards and treaties. He holds an honorary doctorate in computer science from the Open University (UK), where he is a Visiting Professor; in 2007, he served as the Fulbright Chair at the Annenberg Center for Public Diplomacy at the University of Southern California.

                His novels have been translated into dozens of languages and are published by Tor Books, Titan Books (UK) and HarperCollins (UK) and simultaneously released on the Internet under Creative Commons licenses that encourage their re-use and sharing, a move that increases his sales by enlisting his readers to help promote his work. He has won the Locus and Sunburst Awards, and been nominated for the Hugo, Nebula and British Science Fiction Awards.

                His two latest books are IN REAL LIFE, a young adult graphic novel created with Jen Wang (2014); and INFORMATION DOES NOT WANT TO BE FREE, a business book about creativity in the Internet age (2014).

                His latest young adult novel is HOMELAND, the bestselling sequel to 2008’s LITTLE BROTHER. His latest novel for adults is RAPTURE OF THE NERDS, written with Charles Stross and published in 2012. His New York Times Bestseller LITTLE BROTHER was published in 2008. His latest short story collection is WITH A LITTLE HELP, available in paperback, ebook, audiobook and limited edition hardcover. In 2011, Tachyon Books published a collection of his essays, called CONTEXT: FURTHER SELECTED ESSAYS ON PRODUCTIVITY, CREATIVITY, PARENTING, AND POLITICS IN THE 21ST CENTURY (with an introduction by Tim O’Reilly) and IDW published a collection of comic books inspired by his short fiction called CORY DOCTOROW’S FUTURISTIC TALES OF THE HERE AND NOW. THE GREAT BIG BEAUTIFUL TOMORROW, a PM Press Outspoken Authors chapbook, was also published in 2011.

                LITTLE BROTHER was nominated for the 2008 Hugo, Nebula, Sunburst and Locus Awards. It won the Ontario Library White Pine Award, the Prometheus Award as well as the Indienet Award for bestselling young adult novel in America’s top 1000 independent bookstores in 2008; it was the San Francisco Public Library’s One City/One Book choice for 2013. It has also been adapted for stage by Josh Costello.

                He co-founded the open source peer-to-peer software company OpenCola, and serves on the boards and advisory boards of the Participatory Culture Foundation, the Clarion Foundation, the Metabrainz Foundation and The Glenn Gould Foundation.

                On February 3, 2008, he became a father. The little girl is called Poesy Emmeline Fibonacci Nautilus Taylor Doctorow, and is a marvel that puts all the works of technology and artifice to shame.

Doctorow, C. (2015, July 30). About Cory Doctorow. Retrieved from http://craphound.com/bio/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Cory Efram Doctorow (Part Three) [Online].July 2018; 17(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/doctorow-three.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, July 22). An Interview with Cory Efram Doctorow (Part Three). Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/doctorow-three.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Cory Efram Doctorow (Part Three). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A, July. 2018. <www.in-sightjournal.com/doctorow-three>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Cory Efram Doctorow (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/doctorow-three.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Cory Efram Doctorow (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A (July 2018). www.in-sightjournal.com/doctorow-three.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Cory Efram Doctorow (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/doctorow-three>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Cory Efram Doctorow (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/doctorow-three.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Cory Efram Doctorow (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 17.A (2018):July. 2018. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/doctorow-three>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Cory Efram Doctorow (Part Three) [Internet]. (2018, July; 17(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/doctorow-three.

License and Copyright

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In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-07-22

Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Ivan Ivec and Rick Rosner on “The Spiritual Life”

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 17.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Thirteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: July 22, 2018

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,455

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Rick Rosner and I conduct a conversational series entitled Ask A Genius on a variety of subjects through In-Sight Publishing on the personal and professional website for Rick. Rick exists on the World Genius Directory listing as the world’s second highest IQ at 192 based on several ultra-high IQ tests scores developed by independent psychometricians. Ivan Ivec, earned a score at 174, on Algebrica by Mislav Predavec. Both scores on a standard deviation of 15. A sigma of ~6.13 for Rick – a general intelligence rarity of 1 in 2,314,980,850 – and 4.80 for Ivan – a general intelligence rarity of 1 in 2,470,424. Of course, if a higher general intelligence score, then the greater the variability in, and margin of error in, the general intelligence scores because of the greater rarity in the population. This amounts to a joint interview or conversation with Ivan Ivec, Rick Rosner, and myself on the “The Spiritual Life.”

Keywords: intelligence, Ivan Ivec, life, Rick Rosner, spiritual, World Genius Directory.

Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Ivan Ivec and Rick Rosner on “The Spiritual Life”[1],[2]

*Interview conducted via email. Please see biographies in footnote [1].*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Ivan meet Rick. Rick meet Ivan. The topic is ‘The Spiritual Life’ for this discussion. Ivan, you are Christian. Rick, you follow Reformed Judaism. Each have respective life philosophies and practices. It seems most appropriate to have the groundwork of the life philosophies and practices provided by both of you. 

We can find textbook definitions. However, the nuances come from individual lives. To begin, what are its components and relationships – entities, ethical precepts, ideas, and practices? For Ivan, the context is Christianity. For Rick, the context is Reformed Judaism. 

Ivan Ivec: Christianity is very simple religion and pretty hard. All persons ready to follow good even when this is hard can be considered Christians, because this is the base of Christianity, and not some profound knowledge.

The main entity is of course Jesus Christ. We believe that he makes all this possible, because humans are too weak to follow this idea, no matter how simple and logical it seems sometimes.

Because of its simplicity, textbook definitions are pretty important in Christianity, but of course they should come together with experience.

Rick Rosner: I do have spiritual beliefs, but most of my hopeful beliefs of a religious type are founded on faith in future technology. I’m a science person. I haven’t been convinced by organized religions, or by most aspects of organized religion. So I would like to believe in resurrection, but there’s not enough evidence for resurrection through religion for me to believe in resurrection – except in only the tiniest, tiniest way.

So I put my hope in technology’s ability to extend our lives significantly in the near future, and in the near- to medium-future science and technology’s ability to come up with ways to replicate and extend the contents of our brains. Our thoughts and memories. Thus, we have a type of technical resurrection. I tend not to believe that there is some kind of supreme being who dispenses justice.

Though I don’t have that belief that goes with the science of the 20th century, which is a cold random universe in which nothing really matters because everything is the result of happenstance events according to the laws of physics – the universe unfolds according to the rules of Quantum Mechanics and Relativity, with nobody and nothing in charge. Whatever happens doesn’t really matter because there’s no one judging.

Instead, I tend to think that rather than randomness being in charge that information is in charge, and that the universe, at least as we experience it, is a place of increasing order, and that that can be seen as providing some structures and some values. To have order, you need protection from disorder.

2. Jacobsen: Ivan, I feel drawn to the opening sentence: “Christianity is very simple religion and pretty hard.” Does this mean the foundation of Christianity is simple and its practice is difficult? For example, as you know, we find the Golden Rule in Matthew 7:12 for a summarization of one core ethical precept within Christianity. It is simple and applicable as a general moral principle, but it is difficult to practice in every context.

As well, you mentioned the main entity, Jesus Christ. With the main entity as Jesus Christ, other entities tend to be part of the theological discourse. For example, the beings of spirit such as angels and the Devil. Do these other entities—angels and the Devil—fit within your view of Christianity as well? If so, what role do entities such as angels and the Devil play in the world today, especially in people’s spiritual lives?

Rick, in your response, I note the equivalency of “spiritual beliefs” and “hopeful beliefs of a religious type,” which makes spiritual beliefs a subset of hopeful beliefs to you. Those of a “religious type.” To clarify, was this intentional? As well, you have a faith, in future technology tied to science because you are a “science person,” which remains disconnected from “most aspects of organized religion.” You deny the resurrection, except connected to future technology through science.

Furthermore, you disbelieve in a “supreme being who dispenses justice.” Your source of justice comes from the Golden Rule, and associated principles and values, derived from information-based principles connected to increasing order. Without an ultimate authority for right and wrong, for objective (not universal) moral values and judgments, does this make ultimate ethical evaluations dependent on conscious beings? If so, what does this mean for the spiritual life?

Ivec: Christianity talks about things which cannot be understood without God’s mercy. It talks about truth (indeed simple truth), but which is beyond our current ability to understand.

That’s why many people do not have faith, and that’s way I say that Christianity is difficult. Angels, the Devil, humans – all are spiritual beings and fit in Christianity. However, Jesus Christ was talking about things mentioned above, which are beyond our understanding, but this is so because he wants to heal our understanding progressively.

Two big weapons of the Devil:

1) he tries to convince people that he does not exist;

2) if he fails in step 1), he tries to convince people that he is dangerous.

One big weakness of the Devil:

1) All his attempts are misery in comparison with God’s plans.

Rosner: Under all forms of Christianity, God is the Creator. God is the source of everything good. Under most forms of Christianity, though I don’t know how it works in full, the Devil is a very bad guy with unsurpassed power, except for the power of God. Again, I do not know that much about Christianity. Under my point of view, God and the Devil are personifications of the ways to divide the world into good and bad. In other words, God is a metaphor for order and for increasing order, for information, for safety, for persistence, for positive ethical standards, for finding the strength within yourself and within your community to make the right ethical choices. 

There is the one set of footprints on the beach because Jesus was carrying you. God is representative of what is good and right. God is representative of the strength you can find to do what is good while the Devil is pretty much the opposite. A force for bad decisions, wanton destruction, chaos and increasing chaos, danger, and death. It is a helpful way to divide the world, to group the things in the world into good and bad, which people have been trying to do for thousands of years. 

The Devil is an interesting model. In that, God is like Superman. Superman is straightforward. He pretty much always does good. There is nothing paradoxical about Superman. In TV terms, God is the game show Who Wants to be a Millionaire, where everything pulls in the same direction.  You’re cheering for the person to win as opposed to reality shows or the game show The Weakest Link, where generally on the show The Weakest Link the biggest dicks, the biggest jerks, win because they gang up on the best players and knock them out, leaving only the biggest jerks. I don’t think it’s on anymore anywhere. It’s hard to watch because it pulls in opposite directions. 

You’re pulling for the good people, but the jerks prevail. However, God is straightforward and entirely good, even if we don’t understand God’s decisions with what he does about the world. The Devil is less straightforward, is more complicated. He’s closer to Batman. Where Batman has darkness within and is more complicated, and I’m not saying Batman is the Devil, I’m saying he’s more complicated because he’s tormented. The Devil is more complicated because he can take more forms, even the apparently good, to do bad. The Devil wants everyone to fail, to embrace evil and to fail, but he has a trickier utility belt to accomplish that. 

He can take all sorts of forms including forms that look good and can trick people into doing what is ultimately bad. We see that in some of the current political debates in America. On the liberal side, liberals like to give people safety nets, which seems like doing good. It is charitable. It is helping your fellow humans. The new conservative person, not super-new but the conservatives who have been active for the past 30 years, say that there is the Devil in those welfare-type, entitlement-type, safety nets. That by attempting to do good, you are really doing bad. That you are making people soft. That you are making people unable to fend for themselves. 

That maybe you need to deny the Devil of Liberalism and safety nets and embrace the toughness of the not helpful and make people get out there and work for themselves, which is, as I see it, mostly a garbage argument for F-ing over other people. That is what today’s Republican Party tends to try to do. Regardless of how they feel in their hearts, the result of Republican policies is rich people getting richer and everyone else staying the same or falling back.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Ivan Ivec (From two webpage links here and here: “My name is Ivan Ivec and I come from Croatia. I’m a teacher of mathematics with a Ph.D. degree in mathematics. I’ll present here my IQ tests and other activities.”

“However, I’m not interested only in IQ tests and mathematics, which is my profession. I believe in God and try to live my faith. As I’m pretty bad theologician, under Religion link I’ll only try to help people in need. I pray God to give me enough humbleness to maintain this site in the productive way. Finally, under Steven Fell’s Art link I’ll promote one American artist, who did my portrait for this website.”

Rick G. Rosner: “According to semi-reputable sources, Rick Rosner has the world’s second-highest IQ. He earned 12 years of college credit in less than a year and graduated with the equivalent of 8 majors. He has received 8 Writer’s Guild Award and Emmy nominations, and was named 2013 North American Genius of the Year by The World Genius Registry.

He has written for Remote Control, Crank Yankers, The Man Show, The Emmy Awards, The Grammy Awards, and Jimmy Kimmel Live!. He has also worked as a stripper, a bouncer, a roller-skating waiter, and a nude model. In a TV commercial, Domino’s Pizza named him the World’s Smartest Man. He was also named Best Bouncer in the Denver Area by Westwood Magazine.

He spent the disco era as an undercover high school student. 25 years as a bar bouncer, American fake ID-catcher, 25+ years as a stripper, and nude art model, and nearly 30 years as a writer for more than 2,500 hours of network television.

He lost on Jeopardy!, sued Who Wants to Be a Millionaire over a bad question, and lost the lawsuit. He spent 35+ years on a modified version of Big Bang Theory. Now, he mostly sits around tweeting in a towel. He lives in Los Angeles, California with his wife and daughter.

You can send an email or a direct message via Twitter, or find him on LinkedIn, or see him on YouTube.”

[2] Individual Publication Date: July 22, 2018 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/rosner-ivec; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Ivan Ivec and Rick Rosner on “The Spiritual Life” [Online].July 2018; 17(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/rosner-ivec.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, July 22). Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Ivan Ivec and Rick Rosner on “The Spiritual Life”. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/rosner-ivec.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Ivan Ivec and Rick Rosner on “The Spiritual Life”. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A, July. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/rosner-ivec>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Ivan Ivec and Rick Rosner on “The Spiritual Life”.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/rosner-ivec.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Ivan Ivec and Rick Rosner on “The Spiritual Life”.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A (July 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/rosner-ivec.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Ivan Ivec and Rick Rosner on “The Spiritual Life”‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/rosner-ivec>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Ivan Ivec and Rick Rosner on “The Spiritual Life”‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/rosner-ivec.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Ivan Ivec and Rick Rosner on “The Spiritual Life”.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 17.A (2018):July. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/rosner-ivec>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Ivan Ivec and Rick Rosner on “The Spiritual Life” [Internet]. (2018, June; 17(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/rosner-volko-one.

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In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-07-15

An Interview with Cory Efram Doctorow (Part Two)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 17.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Thirteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: July 15, 2018

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 4,788

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Cory Doctorow is an Activist, Blogger, Journalist, and Science Fiction Writer. He discusses: philosophies appealing to him; a good grasp of the near future or lack thereof; Participatory Culture Foundation; the Clarion Foundation; the Metabrainz Foundation; The Glenn Gould Foundation; Alice Taylor and their love story; marriage and its change for personal perspective; Poesy Emmeline Fibonacci Nautilus Taylor Doctorow; three biggest changes in the next 50 years; timeline for the modification of more than half the human population; and the potential for the levelling off the accelerating technological changes.

Keywords: activist, Cory Efram Doctorow, journalist, science fiction, writer.

Interview with Cory Efram Doctorow: Blogger, Journalist, and Science Fiction Writer (Part Two)[1],[2],[3]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview. *

*This interview was conducted in two parts with the first on April 12, 2016 and the second on July 1, 2016. *

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What philosophies appeal the most to you – general, political, social, economic, aesthetic?

[Laughing] Gosh. You mean like logical positivism or utilitarianism, or whatever? I do not know. I do not know that I have a main, core general philosophy that I think is best., politically, I favor evidence-based policy, but you still have to ask yourself evidence in support of what. Is it utilitarianism? I do not know. I do not know that I have a name for it. There are elements of anarcho-syndicalism and Marxism that I find compelling.

A book that had a huge impression on me this year was a book called Austerity ecology, and the collapse-porn addicts. It was a Marxist critique of the Green Left, which squared a lot of circles for me because I am a believer in material culture, and an enjoyer of material culture. I think physical things are cool, and I like them, and they bring me pleasure, and beautiful things bring me pleasure. The Green Left has conflated anti-consumerism with anti-materialism.

Leigh Philipps’ idea is that I do not need to step back from material abundance into a material austerity in order to save the planet, who’s name I am blanking on. He talks about how high technology and its material abundance are the only way we can imagine both accommodating the human population as it is and what is will become, and the Earth. That organic farming is code for let’s kill 3 billion people, and still not have enough food for everybody. It is only through GMO and nuclear power, and the Left has historically been the movement for material abundance for all.

The Left’s critique of the wealth of the rich was not that the rich had too much, but rather everyone else had too little. The Marxist left, viewed the capitalist system for improving material efficiency in material production so that the material abundance could be realized for all. And he makes many great little easily conveyable points like: “Capitalism and markets — because they favor firms that have lower costs — have radically reduced the material and energy-inputs into our physical goods, and continue to do so with virtually no end in sight.”

The downside of something like Uber or self-driving cars in a market economy is that all of the dividends of increased productivity and automation accrue to the forces of capital, but that’s an economic phenomenon and not a technological one. The upside is that we are getting more people to more places and more comfort with less environmental consequences, and that if we can solve the labor side what you end up with is an enormous benefit to everybody. And solving the labour side is an economic question that relies or presumes that the technological side is allowed to go on. He also notes that Walmart and Amazon of how non-market forces can be used to allocate resources extremely efficiently. These are not internal market places. They are command and control market places.

That nevertheless manage to move material products from one place to another very, efficiently, and so I guess I am a post-Green leftist. And I guess my view is that technology humanity’s servant and not its master but that it takes a political world for that to be the case. I do not know if that makes sense. It is the intersection of all of these other things. I think the two-dimensional left-right diagram or chart, graph, is insufficient. I think you need a right-left, centralist-decentralist, technology-anti-technology, material-spiritual, multidimensional shape to plot political ideology or life ideology correctly.

I am a believer in self-determination, but I am also a believer in collective work and collectivism, and particularly in the same way that being gifted privileges a certain cognitive style or certain intellect without regard to any objective criteria for what is the best intellect. I think that the idea of meritocracy is a self-serving, self-delusion. That meritocracy starts from the presumption that you can get rid of all the people whose skills are possessed by lots of people and take the people whose skills are more rarely distributed in the general population and that those people can have a perfectly good life,

The reality is that it does not matter how excellent you are at being a nuclear physicist or a brain surgeon,

If you are someone cleaning the toilets, you are going to die of cholera. I am skeptical of the meritocratic story, and, again, I do not know exactly what you would call that political philosophy. Egalitarianism? Not because I think we are all different. I do not know. Humanism? I am an atheist and a materialist. I am a believer in Enlightenment methodologies. I am a believer in the scientific method. And the idea that our own cognitive processes are subject to delusion and self-delusion. That self-delusion is particularly pernicious problem for our cognitive apparatus and only by subjecting ourselves to adversarial peer review can we figure out what is true or not or whether we are kidding ourselves. I do not know what you call that philosophy.

2. Who besides you might have the best grasp of the near future?

I do not think I have any real grasp of the near future. I think science fiction writers are Texan marksman. We fire a shot out there and then draw a target around the place where the pellets hit. Science fiction makes a lot of predictions, and if none of them came true that would be remarkable, but that does not mean we are any better than a random number generator. I think that the near future – the way to find out about the present anyways, which is the moving wave front in which the past becomes the near future – is to look at all of those futuristic stories that we are telling that represents the futures that may be, and find the ones that are resonating in the popular imaginations, and that tells you about the subconscious fears and aspirations lurking in the public.

I think that the reason that Millennials who were literally not born when Terminator and The Matrix came out are still talking about the Red Pill and Skynet because the idea of transhuman, immortal life forms that treat us as inconvenient gut flora is fantastically resonant in an era when the limited liability corporation has become the dominant structure for guiding our society. In the same way that Frankenstein had its popularity in England tells you an awful lot about the aspirations and fears of technology becoming our master instead of our servitor of the people that read it and watched it on the stage at that time. I do not think anyone is good at the near future, but I think the keen observer is the one who acknowledges that and instead of predictions tends to observations about what’s popular.

3. You serve on the boards of the Participatory Culture Foundation, the Clarion Foundation, the Metabrainz Foundation, and The Glenn Gould Foundation. Let’s run the foundations in order: why the Participatory Culture Foundation? What does it do?

Participatory Culture Foundation is an umbrella under which a group of now not-so-young, but then young, activists that I, liked and continue to like and admire were doing a bunch of projects. They started off as an activists group called downhill battle. It was founded by the music industry’s attempts to regulate the internet and have gone on a wide variety of projects. And they created 501(c)3 in order to have an umbrella to do fundraising through, and to organize their projects, and asked the people who have advised them over the years to join the 501(c)3 board as a brain trust, which I was happy to do.

4. Why the Clarion Foundation? What does it do?

The Clarion Foundation overseas the Clarion writing workshop, which is the workshop I went to when I went to Michigan State. It was formative in my own writing career, and I teach it every couple of years. When the Michigan system was defunded by their state level government and Clarion lost its home at MSU, and started seeking new accommodation, it restructured as a 501(c)3 and asked me if I would join the board. I joined to be their technological know-how person. Arts organizations are a little short on technological prowess. Since then, I have filled that role and done some fundraising for them. I do teach at Clarion every couple of years. I am working out the logistics for teaching in summer 2017 with my family now.

5. Why the Metabrainz Foundation? What does it do?

Metabrainz Foundation overseas something called Metabrainz, which is a metadata system for music that’s open. It was founded in the wake of a now-forgotten scandal. There was something called CDDB or CD Database. The way that it works is that every time you stuck a CD in your computer. You would be prompted to key in the track listing for it. That would go into CDDB, which was organized as an informal project. And then a company called GraceNote took the project over, and made that database proprietary for access to it and freezing out new media players, and you may have noticed that the market for media players has all but vanished in the wake of that – in part because of other phenomena to do with lock-in and platform strategies.

But also, in part, because that metadata resource that made music sortable and playable was cut off. That the commons had been enclosed, and Metabrainz is formed to create an open repository of metadata that was user generated and crowdsourced, and to lock that open in the bylaws of the (c)3 so that it could never be enclosed, so that people would have the ability and the confidence to contribute to the project knowing that it would never be enclosed. It has been successful since and has built a database whose metadata is reliable in ways that GraceNote and other databases have never been, and can be accessed with audio fingerprinting algorithms to automatically generate trackless things and other information.

It is a good example of information politics. How political structures, and how economic structures, and how data handling practices can lock services open and make sure that you can have new entrants and new competitors as opposed to locking them closed and pulling up the ladder behind someone who was scrappy a couple years ago and has now developed as a player.

6. Why The Glenn Gould Foundation? What does it do?

That’s one of the ones that lies largely dormant. Gould died without any heirs. Glenn Gould was obviously this famous pianist, and they started an arts foundation and put on a conference that attracted some great talent, but, unfortunately, no audience. There were 80 performers and maybe 60 tickets sold. And they asked me if I would join the board, and I did. Then, they said, “If we have any secure events, we will contact you as a support member.” As far as I know, they haven’t done that.

7. You married Alice Taylor. How did this love story begin and develop into the present?

We met when I was working for Electronic Frontier Fund (EFF). I attended a meeting in Finland that was organized by Tim O’Reilly and Joe Eigo and Marko Ahtisaari (son of the former Prime Minister in Finland). It was called the Social Software Summit. I was at the time a smoker, as was Alice. I came in from San Francisco and had a carton of duty-free cigarettes with me, which we proceeded to smoke together over the course of the conference. It was mid-Summer and the Sun never set. We sat on the roof of the hotel bar. This 12-story hotel in the middle of Helsinki. It is the tallest building in Helsinki. It was KGB headquarters during the occupation.

We stayed up all night. It was romantic, and it kindled a long-distance love affair, which was less doomed than other long-distance love affairs might have been because I was already planning to take this job as European Director at the EFF, which would have me relocating to London. And about six months later, I moved to London and we took up the relationship in person and moved in together about a year later, and had a baby together in 2008, and got married later that year, and are still together to this day.

8. How does marriage change personal perspective on life and its progression?

Well, I guess it forces you to, especially coupled with parenthood, take account of the priorities of other people. When you decide that you’re going to set aside your own pleasure activity or downtime for personal development time to achieve professional goal, suddenly, that decision gets a lot harder. You have to take account of other people’s priorities. I think it makes you more empathic and better at taking other people’s point of view. I think it is required that you be more empathic about other people’s complaints about you. Of course, you have a best friend and sounding board from someone who keeps you intellectually honest who is always there, and I think that makes you more rigorous and smarter, too.

9. On February 3, 2008, Poesy Emmeline Fibonacci Nautilus Taylor Doctorow came into the world with Alice Taylor and Cory Doctorow as her new parents. How does parenting change personal perspective?

I think it makes you have more of a stake in the future. I certainly have always thought that it will be terrible for people who come after me if our worst mistakes go on unchecked, but now there is a much more personal and emotional element to it. It also makes you, I think, a lot more cognizant of the suits and nuts of cognitive development. Having lived through your own cognitive development gives you a certain amount of perspective on how people think and how other people think, and how you often thought, and how you changed, but parenthood makes you confront it on a daily basis as an actual project with consequences.

You need to figure out how to get another human being who lacks your experience, but isn’t dumb by any means to agree to do the things that are the right things to do including acquiring knowledge and experience and context and the ability to put it all together. That is a humbling thing, and that is a continuous challenge, but it is also exciting and rewarding. I also think, at least for me, it eliminated my ability to be objective or to emotionally distance myself from the peril or consequences of children who suffer. And so that is in movies and books, where I find it intolerable now, when children are used as plot devices. Not intolerable intellectually, but emotionally, and having strong emotional reaction to the plight of children who are badly off.

The refugees today. I have always worried about the refugee issues, but there is new dimension when you think of a parent in that situation at least for me. That I was not or never had before I was a parent. I am only 8 years in. There is only more to come. I am sure.

10. What seem like the three biggest changes in the next 50 years without appropriate international preparation?

With that caveat that science fiction writers suck at predicting the future, I think that climate change is on its way, and we have already released so much carbon into the atmosphere that there will be catastrophic effects felt as a result – regardless of what we do. And so our arguments now or challenge now is to see the cataclysmic consequences of that early carbon release and take motivation from it to do something about it before subsequent carbon releases some along that do even worse damage to the planet and to us, and to the living things that we care about.

I think that there is a similar thing happening in our information ecology. That we’ve had 25 or 30 years of surveillance capitalism and mass data gathering on us, and I think the leaking of all that data is more or less a foregone conclusion. Anything that you collect is likely to leak, and I think that given that breaches are cumulative in their harm. That having a little bit of information of you leaked is bad, but it can be pieced together with the next little bit of information so that it can be significantly worse, and so on and so on.

So what we are not arguing about is not whether or not all of that data is going to leak and we are all going to feel the consequences of it, but if we are going to learn from it early enough to not collect too much more information in much more detail from many more sources as computers disappear into our skin and as we put our bodies into computers more often, as our houses we live in and our hospitals have computers that we put people into and so on. So, I think both of these are related issues as they deal with long-term consequences and immediate short-term benefits.

And problems with markets and marketability of things that have long-term consequences and the force to internalize the consequences of their actions. They both have to do with regulatory barrier, and they both are related to mass wealth inequality. One of the things that has driven wealth inequality is corruption, and the ability of the elites to fend off fakes and attempts to make them internalize the costs of their bad decisions, and that corruption is also driven by mass surveillance and mass surveillance allows corrupt states to perpetuate themselves longer because surveillance can be used to find the people that are most likely to make changes to status quo and neutralize them by telling the cops who to take out or by allowing for the disruption of their organizing or activism. And so, I think those two issues are related, and I am interested in how do we decarbonize surveillance capitalism as much as the question of how we decarbonize industrial capitalism as well.

I guess the third is the line between surveillance capitalism and political surveillance. They are intimately related. On the one hand, because of the otherwise destabilizing impact of mass wealth disparity can be countered through surveillance and also because surveillance is much cheaper and easier to attain because markets have offloaded the costs of surveillance from the state to the individuals who are under surveillance. You buy the phone and pay for the subscription that gathers the data about you, and so the state does not have to bear that cost. During the Cold War, the Stasi had one snitch for every 60 people. Now, the NSA manages the to survey the whole planet at the rate of about 1 spy to about every 10,000 people.

11. How long until more than half of the human population is significantly modified, genetically, with augmented thought processing, with continuous blood monitoring and drug administration or the like?

Gosh, I have no idea. I think that my generation assuming that industrial and technological civilization does not collapse. All of my generation will have some medical implant if we live long enough. We are logging enough ear-punishing hours that we’ll all have hearing aids. The numbers on what percentage of people are legally blind by the time they die is a crazy number. It is like 89% or something. The life limit that will use some prosthesis, heads up display, or goggles as we become legally blind is high. It depends on what you count such as wheelchairs and so on. We are already cyborgs to some extent, but in terms of direct germ plasm modification. I have no idea.

That seems to me like a real wild card. Bruce Sterling has made a compelling case is an incredibly dumb idea because the chances are that we’ll come up with better germ plasm modification and you’ll be forever stuck with this year’s mod. Given how much of our metabolic and maybe even our cognitive function is regulated not by our own cells, but by our microbial nations and given how much easier it is to manipulate of a single celled organism. Maybe, what we’ll we do is manipulate our microbes rather than our germ plasms.

12. Will accelerating technological change ever level off?

I honestly have no idea. I think that things like Moore’s Law tend to be taken as laws of physics rather than observations about industrial activity. Moore’s Law is more of an observation than a prediction, and I do not know that we understand entirely what underpins it. I also think that when we look at something like Moore’s Law. We say the power of computation is doubling every couple of years or 18 months. What we mean is not only are we getting better at making faster computers, but we are also choosing the kinds of problems that computers that we know how to make faster are good at, and so it may be that as computing power becomes cheaper or cooler.

Then we can add more cores rather than faster cores, that we decide that we solve the problems that can be solved in parallel rather than serial is problem that we think of as an important one without ever consciously deciding it. That’s where all of the research is because that’s where all of the productivity gains are. We never even notice that we are not getting much better at solving problems in serial because we end up figuring how to solve problems that matter to us in parallel and pretending we do not see the problems that aren’t practical in parallel.

Bibliography

  1. Doctorow, C. (2016). Crap Hound. Retrieved from craphound.com.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Activist; Blogger; Journalist; Science Fiction Author.

[2] Individual Publication Date: July 15, 2018: www.in-sightjournal.com/doctorow-two; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Photograph courtesy of Cory Efram Doctorow and Jonathan Worth Creative Commons Attribution 3.0.

[4] About Cory Doctorow (2015) states:

                Cory Doctorow (craphound.com) is a science fiction author, activist, journalist and blogger — the co-editor of Boing Boing (boingboing.net) and the author of many books, most recently IN REAL LIFE, a graphic novel; INFORMATION DOES NOT WANT TO BE FREE, a book about earning a living in the Internet age, and HOMELAND, the award-winning, best-selling sequel to the 2008 YA novel LITTLE BROTHER.

            One paragraph:

                Cory Doctorow (craphound.com) is a science fiction author, activist, journalist and blogger — the co-editor of Boing Boing (boingboing.net) and the author of the YA graphic novel IN REAL LIFE, the nonfiction business book INFORMATION DOES NOT WANT TO BE FREE< and young adult novels like HOMELAND, PIRATE CINEMA and LITTLE BROTHER and novels for adults like RAPTURE OF THE NERDS and MAKERS. He works for the Electronic Frontier Foundation and co-founded the UK Open Rights Group. Born in Toronto, Canada, he now lives in Los Angeles.

            Full length:

                Cory Doctorow (craphound.com) is a science fiction novelist, blogger and technology activist. He is the co-editor of the popular weblog Boing Boing (boingboing.net), and a contributor to The Guardian, Publishers Weekly, Wired, and many other newspapers, magazines and websites. He is a special consultant to the Electronic Frontier Foundation (eff.org), a non-profit civil liberties group that defends freedom in technology law, policy, standards and treaties. He holds an honorary doctorate in computer science from the Open University (UK), where he is a Visiting Professor; in 2007, he served as the Fulbright Chair at the Annenberg Center for Public Diplomacy at the University of Southern California.

                His novels have been translated into dozens of languages and are published by Tor Books, Titan Books (UK) and HarperCollins (UK) and simultaneously released on the Internet under Creative Commons licenses that encourage their re-use and sharing, a move that increases his sales by enlisting his readers to help promote his work. He has won the Locus and Sunburst Awards, and been nominated for the Hugo, Nebula and British Science Fiction Awards.

                His two latest books are IN REAL LIFE, a young adult graphic novel created with Jen Wang (2014); and INFORMATION DOES NOT WANT TO BE FREE, a business book about creativity in the Internet age (2014).

                His latest young adult novel is HOMELAND, the bestselling sequel to 2008’s LITTLE BROTHER. His latest novel for adults is RAPTURE OF THE NERDS, written with Charles Stross and published in 2012. His New York Times Bestseller LITTLE BROTHER was published in 2008. His latest short story collection is WITH A LITTLE HELP, available in paperback, ebook, audiobook and limited edition hardcover. In 2011, Tachyon Books published a collection of his essays, called CONTEXT: FURTHER SELECTED ESSAYS ON PRODUCTIVITY, CREATIVITY, PARENTING, AND POLITICS IN THE 21ST CENTURY (with an introduction by Tim O’Reilly) and IDW published a collection of comic books inspired by his short fiction called CORY DOCTOROW’S FUTURISTIC TALES OF THE HERE AND NOW. THE GREAT BIG BEAUTIFUL TOMORROW, a PM Press Outspoken Authors chapbook, was also published in 2011.

                LITTLE BROTHER was nominated for the 2008 Hugo, Nebula, Sunburst and Locus Awards. It won the Ontario Library White Pine Award, the Prometheus Award as well as the Indienet Award for bestselling young adult novel in America’s top 1000 independent bookstores in 2008; it was the San Francisco Public Library’s One City/One Book choice for 2013. It has also been adapted for stage by Josh Costello.

                He co-founded the open source peer-to-peer software company OpenCola, and serves on the boards and advisory boards of the Participatory Culture Foundation, the Clarion Foundation, the Metabrainz Foundation and The Glenn Gould Foundation.

                On February 3, 2008, he became a father. The little girl is called Poesy Emmeline Fibonacci Nautilus Taylor Doctorow, and is a marvel that puts all the works of technology and artifice to shame.

Doctorow, C. (2015, July 30). About Cory Doctorow. Retrieved from http://craphound.com/bio/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Cory Efram Doctorow (Part Two) [Online].July 2018; 17(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/doctorow-two.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, July 15). An Interview with Cory Efram Doctorow (Part Two). Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/doctorow-two.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Cory Efram Doctorow (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A, July. 2018. <www.in-sightjournal.com/doctorow-two>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Cory Efram Doctorow (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/doctorow-two.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Cory Efram Doctorow (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A (July 2018). www.in-sightjournal.com/doctorow-two.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Cory Efram Doctorow (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/doctorow-two>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Cory Efram Doctorow (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/doctorow-two.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Cory Efram Doctorow (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 17.A (2018):July. 2018. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/doctorow-two>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Cory Efram Doctorow (Part Two) [Internet]. (2018, July; 17(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/doctorow-two.

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2018-07-15

Three Administrations of Humanist Student Leaders Dialogue About Humanism: Hari Parekh, Hannah Lucy Timson, and Angelos Sofocleous

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 17.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Thirteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: July 15, 2018

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 6,674

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Hari Parekh, Hannah Lucy Timson, and Angelos Sofocleous are the President Emeritus, President, and President-Elect of Humanist Students, respectively. They discuss: becoming involved with Humanist Students; getting the word out about what Humanist Students does; the work by Sofocelous in secularism and humanism; the movement of humanism; professional accomplishments; similar faiths of the Parekh, Timson, and Sofocleous; and concluding feelings or thoughts.

Keywords:  Angelos Sofocleous, Hannah Lucy Timson, Hari Parekh, Humanist Students, President, President-Elect, and President Emeritus.

Three Administrations of Humanist Student Leaders Dialogue About Humanism: Hari Parekh, Hannah Lucy Timson, and Angelos Sofocleous[1],[2],[3]

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Let us start with Hari, how did you become involved in Humanist Students, in brief?

Hari Parekh: In brief [Laughing], before Humanist Students was an entity, it used to be known as Atheist, Humanist, and Secular Students (AHS). That entity was the student sector for the British Humanist Association (BHA).

I originally started my own Atheist, Humanistic and Secular (AHS) society at the University of Northampton. It became the first society within the student sector to receive an award from its own Students Union for being the best society of the year, and for myself being the best president. During my second year at university, I was the East Midlands Regional Officer for the AHS – in which I supported the development of the society at the University of Leicester. During my final year at university, I was the New Societies Officer where I helped to start fifteen societies across the UK and Republic of Ireland, and the following year I was elected as President of the AHS during my MSc at the University of Nottingham. Thereafter, I was involved in the successful transition (with the support from the members) from the AHS to Humanist Students as it is now known, and am now President Emeritus of Humanist Students.

The AHS was taken under the wing by the BHA to support students at universities. The problem was, the way it was ran; all of it was organized and actualized by students. So, students were the cohort of the president, the treasurer, the secretary, and, as a result, with students being students having to manage an organization at the same time as managing their academic careers and everything else that they have to do, whether jobs or whatever else.

It meant the framework of the AHS at the time ran, ran pretty much on loose ends, when people had time to do it. As a result, it fractured the way students were supported. It fractured the way students were able to get involved with the student organization.

In actuality, it affected the progression. If you were a student at the time, it was less likely that you would be carrying on within the arena of humanism. It was unlikely that you would be in the arena of being an activist or being interested in what was occurring outside of the student sector.

The other thing is, it managed to last 10 years, but for those 10 years it had a steady decline. It is difficult to see those spaces form. It is difficult to see the gaps and see it sliding down. When others and myself, when I was president at the time, it was kind of about that time that the gaps were shown.

We thought that there needed to be a difference in how this was ran. We needed support from the BHA or more support for the administration and everything else. After the AGM last year in March, an independent review needed to see what the issues and qualms were.

In July, we had an AGM. The caucus passed the amendments to the organization. The changes occurred to the organization. It became Humanists Students, and was allowed to be a part of Humanists UK. Humanists UK supported Humanist Students in changing the way it operated.

It allowed for the new world of the student and youth coordinator in the office of Humanists UK to relinquish all of the advocacy that [Laughing] others and myself have to do. It balanced the load that others and I did, and Hannah and others will do in the future!

As a result, we are able to do the roles we were elected to do rather than the roles plus everything else. We had a good opportunity to re-energize the people interested in it. Those people that are not can observe from the sidelines and hopefully become a part of it later.

As president emeritus, to come back to your point, it has been to see it from a distance, to be there to support Hannah when she needed it and to play that role as an advisor.

Hannah Timson: Yes, so, from my perspective, it has been a bit more of a thing about a welcoming community. When I came to university, I didn’t really know what I believed. I called myself agnostic for a little while, but then I went with my friend, Sammy who is a physicist, to a meeting, It was an AHS meeting, where I met all of the people that I know now. I realized, “Wow, these people are speaking my language” [Laughing], but also that there was a community network that I may have missed not being part of a church group. A lot of people go to a community church group at university because they are looking for a welcoming community, there is nothing wrong with that. However, the fact that there was an alternative to that, where I could say, “It is okay that I don’t believe in this stuff.” That was what led me to the AHS. I hadn’t been that involved in the National organisation until I decided to last year and stood for president.

I think I stood because I realized the value of a community and political organization such as Humanists UK. By political, I do not mean sitting on one side or the other, but an organisation that actively pushes for changes for, in my opinion, a more liberal and better society. I realized the need for an organization that was accepting of everyone from all walks of life – regardless if they were religious or not, I think that is what led me to stand. I had a chat with Hari. I hadn’t met him, actually, at the time. We chatted [Laughing], and I thought he seemed cool and seem to think the same things as I do.

Parekh: Do you remember that chat?

Timson: I do, and it worked out! What I realized was with the role, it wasn’t about – I hate the term president to be honest, because the term “president” sounds so grand and, actually the job itself is putting yourself at the level of your fellow students and saying, “How can we work together?” – its about facilitating dialogue and bringing people together.

It is about building community with other people who may have similar values to our own, but also with the others who frankly don’t, it is highly important that we do that. This was a platform to do that sort of work, not only local but also national level. That is how I ended up where I am.

I am studying Theology and Religion, so this has always been a massive interest to me. Actually, one piece of highly untapped research that I have encountered in Religious Studies is a growing need to understand The non-religious. Even if we act in similar ways to the religious and have similar needs – whatever words you might use to describe those – there is something missing from the academic conversation.

“Who are those people in our society who are now the majority in Britain at least? Who are they? How do they act? How do they interact with other people who are religious?” That has always been a massive interest to me academically.

It has been nice to be involved in an organization that has been working to actively answer that question. Being non-religious doesn’t mean we can’t have community and can’t build important and interesting structures, even though the questions might be fluid. In some ways Humanity needs those structures in order to identify itself, develop and be progressive.

It has been really nice to be a part of an organization like that, its is nice from both the practical and academic sides.

Jacobsen: How about yourself Angelos?

Angelos Sofocleous: Firstly, a few things about myself, religious background, and how I got involved in humanism, in general. I grew up in an Orthodox Christian family and society, was a devout Christian myself, and followed religious practices. Apart from that, I also was what would someone describe an ultra right-wing nationalist, I believed in conspiracy theories, and also followed pseudoscience. At the age of 16-17, a few years before I went to university, I started a process of questioning the whole set of my beliefs, a process which lasted 1-2 years. I ended up on the opposite side of the spectrum on each of my beliefs, managing a full 180o turn. At the age of 21, when I went to university, I defined myself as an agnostic atheist. I was looking for a group to get involved in to meet people with whom we shared a similar worldview, and a place where I could develop and express myself. I found this in the AHS.

Now, on how I got involved with Humanist Students. At Durham University, I joined Durham Atheist, Secularist, and Humanist society (DASH). Mostly, the BHA supported us at the time, which is now Humanists UK. I first became an officer for DASH. The year after, I became president and became even more involved with the AHS and Humanists UK.

Through those organizations, I met many likeminded people, which, at the time, provided me a community feeling but, more importantly functioned as a think tank where ideas were exchanged and shared. I was also very glad to find out that there were other people like me, who started off as religious and then started to question their beliefs and became atheists.

In June 2017, the structure of the AHS changed and became Humanist Students. Later in the year, elections were held and I was elected by Humanist Students members as president-elect. It is not only a leadership role, I would agree with Hannah, but a community director role rather than just being a top figure in the organization.

It is about supporting all those who do not believe or who start to question things as we did at some point in our lives or still do. It is really important for non-religious people, or people who are skeptical about their religion (people who constitute the majority of the student body at UK universities) at all universities to feel that they have a community to which they belong; to feel that they have likeminded people in their universities.

Also, it really is not only about religion. We want people to start to think about freedom of speech in universities, blasphemy laws, and other things which are not directly related to religion. We want to develop a more freethinking mindset.

2. Jacobsen: If you look at the demographics of universities and university-colleges with the United Kingdom, there about 130 as of August 2017. I want to ask a question first to Hannah about the ways in which we find best to reach out to universities and the university-colleges in terms of getting the message out about humanism as well as the work that Humanist Students does.

Timson: At this stage, having changed the way that we work, we are now in about 119. We have about 800 students signed up to us, which is pretty good having only opened September time.

That is continuing to grow, we beat the target for this year [Laughing]. It is trial and error because we, obviously, do not know everything. Sean, who is the Student and Youth coordinator for Humanist Students, may know more because he knows more about how the Students Unions work.

It will be trial and error: What do people like? What is it people are interested in? How do you identify yourself? What is it that makes you want to be involved? A lot of outreach is via social media, and communication with student unions and saying, “Hey, we exist,” [Laughing], “Would you be interested in doing stuff with us? We’ll go to university Freshers weeks and run stalls etc., if there isn’t a current society and have been attending things like the National Union of Student’s Annual Conference and holding Fringe events.

We are not focusing on societies as the main affiliations of students. We are, as we say, placing the onus on the individual. We want them to feel like they are part of a bigger organization, but as individuals their opinion and the way that they want to do humanism and want to achieve and what they want to achieve is an individual process.

We have reached out, “So, we will open to all universities, whether they have a society or not. You can be a member of Humanist Students as well and get free access to Humanist UK material.” We are in about 119 universities and we have at least one student who identifies as a Humanist Student on those campuses. The question is now, how active are those students? That’s a question we are beginning to be able to understand. Then how we reach out to those members, is really just trial and error. We have our national conference coming in a month’s time. I do not know how many people we will get. I do not know if it will be a struggle. We have always struggled to kind of attract people.

This year, the focus is going to be on “Who are we? What do we want to achieve?” Whether we have 20 or more people, we can ask them because those are the people who have purported to support humanism in the UK. If we get 100 people, it means we have more voices and more independent addition to that conversation. However, obviously, the more people are involved and the more democratic you can become, so we are opening forums and looking to have ambassadors where there isn’t a society and asking, “There are 4 or 5 of you there. Would you be interested in starting a society?”

If there isn’t anybody or only a student, the idea is to say, “Okay well, would you be interested in being a representative when we have our society in Birmingham in being the ambassador for the Birmingham area?” We would give information to them in that area and then give them the contact and get them in contact with local groups and attempt to arrange local events with our help.

It would be to get the word out about humanism. We will have that set up when we have our conference set up in about three weeks time. It is a difficult one. But there are things that do work. We are setting up the foundation now. We are trying and seeing how far it can go.

We are and will continue to grow, I believe. 70%, based on the Vatican report, of young people in the UK, 116 to 29 years old, are non-religious. That’s a huge percentage, not all will be Humanists, but a large percentage will be. It is about reaching out and saying, “Hey, don’t be apathetic, let’s build community, let’s tackle this loneliness issue in young people, let’s tackle mental health by building communities that are safe and welcoming and open. Let’s look to the future and be positive and optimistic,” which is what I think humanism offers.

It is a starting place, but I think we will get there: trial and error [Laughing].

3. Jacobsen: Also, Angelos, you have a lot of editing and writing experience in the promotion of atheism, humanism, and secularism. How can other humanist university students develop those skills in order to articulate the humanist message on campus?

Angelos: One of the things that I included in my manifesto when I ran as a candidate for the election as the president-elect was to develop a magazine or blog or more generally a platform for humanist students to be able to express themselves.

We have, at the moment, over 700 members all across UK who, however, do not have a voice to express themselves through Humanist Students. We want to give them the opportunity to raise awareness about what is happening at their universities on issues relating to freedom of speech, human rights, treatment of religious societies.

We really want these issues to come out for people to know about them. Of course, in order to do this, it would be a good idea to have workshops at some of the next conferences.

But from there, it seems that students are, of course, able to express themselves. I am looking forward to giving students a platform to show what is going on at their universities.

Jacobsen: Hari, your own research at the graduate level was on the treatment of those who leave religion. In your time as the president-elect and president, and now as president emeritus, did you come across stories of individuals who had become apostates but then were living at home as students and were mistreated while in a religious home even though they themselves have renounced their religion?

Hari: I started the society back at the University of Northampton, where there was no society at the time for non-religious people. It was unheard of at the university or in the student population [Laughing].

When you get up and start a non-religious society in the campus, you turn some heads [Laughing]. You have people saying, “What are you doing? You are going against your skin color and who you are!.” Etc. I sense from that. The statement is made from within whatever household is whatever way you want to put it.

There is always going to be some sort of back question about what that person is doing and why they are doing it. When I started the society, there was a young lady had just renounced that she is not part of Islam anymore.

She said, “I told my parents at the time. You know what, they literally abandoned me and told me to leave. They told me to get out of the house and do not look back because she was not welcome anymore.” As a result of that, it let me know what else is going on and thinking, “Where else is this going?”

That is ridiculous. Evolutionarily, you have children, or as a social psychology argument, it makes no sense for going against them – they’re your children. This is where the emotionality of apostasy comes from, because it triggers a nerve with people that listen to the countless stories; working with Aliyah Saleem and Imtiaz Shams in Faith to Faithless for example, of people not being able to simply be open to the thought that their child/children could potentially think differently from yourselves – and as a result, they may not agree with you on things that you deeply care about. That should not stop you as a parent from loving, caring and looking after them. By abandoning or shunning your own child, all you are doing is facilitating the notion that the religious/cultural/traditional niche you identify as remains stringent, cold and isolative to those that think and feel differently.

As a result, the organizations highlight the emotionality and the problems that happen with it. The research shows this as well. It shows that this has not been tapped into much. It is something the academic community still struggles to identify as an issue. The reason for that is because, obviously, getting to people who have left their religious faith, that have been abused within their household, and actually getting to that community remains quite difficult.

It means that they have to be hidden. If it is not hidden, you end up losing everything that you lived for. There was a guy in Aston, in Birmingham, who said a few months ago, “I do not believe in any of the religious faith at the moment. I am a refugee. You know what, what am I left with if I renounce my religion? I am on the street and then homeless – because my family cannot process the idea or very thought of this being true. There is no reason for me to do this. There is no quality of life for me if I leave. What else can I do?”

It is for that reason to do the research, to highlight that population of people. It exists, most definitely.

4. Jacobsen: So, Angelos, when it comes to some of the movement of humanism, not only in university but outside of it, I ask because the students themselves with 2-4 years depending on the degree program the are a part of will become part of the general public.

So if that is the case, and it is, what are some healthy ways of transitioning that students could bear in mind when they are working not only within an academic environment – which is a closed environment for the most part – and learning about and developing a humanist life for the most part and also when they leave the university living that outside as well as they can?

Sofocleous: To be honest with you, most humanist groups functioning outside of university have this problem. There are not a lot of young people within those organizations. It is people in their 60s and 70s. These people are doing an amazing job, no doubt. They are educated, smart, intelligent, active. But, at the same time, we cannot continue to ignore the problem of sustainability these societies face. Younger generations need to take over.

As Humanist Students, we mostly address issues that affect young people. We realize, however, the problem that exists in the sustainability of humanist societies which function outside universities, and we try to take steps, within the broader framework of Humanists UK, to address this issue. We have, for example, the Young Humanists branch of Humanists UK, which accommodates for people aged 18 to 35. It is vital that we keep people within humanism when they are in that age group as it is during that period that people enter and leave university, get a job, and start raising a family. Thus, other priorities may act as a barrier, but there is always something that we can do.

It is important for them to receive help from us. Lots of young people are not involved in humanist groups in universities, but there is the potential for those people to get involved in humanism as, as surveys have shown, most are non-religious.

It is important to reach out and have those people who are not religious to know about us. There are people who are humanists for years and do not know about humanism as an ideology or a way of life. So, they do not publicly identify as humanists.

Jacobsen: Hari, you are farther along in your academic a career and academic completions than the three of us.

Parekh: [Laughing].

5. Jacobsen: When I reflect on some of the academic and professional accomplishments that you have, what are some issues that you might notice for those humanist youth that are further along in their studies or professional career in terms of still remaining active to some of the concerns noted by Angelos?

Parekh: [Laughing] It makes me feel a bit old. Longevity remains an issue, whether it is a student group, local group, or national. Longevity ensures that people remain encapsulated to the issues that once touched a nerve. But, as Angelos said previously, local groups have an attendance that are predominantly elderly. As a result, how can this be true with an increasing population of people identifying as non-religious?

I guess it remains important to highlight what Humanism actually is to a wider audience. The moment someone has a conversation about the actuality of humanism, the usual reply is, well that makes sense. As a result, it remains more important to engage in discourse, to make people aware of this ideological stance and to allow people to be able to ask questions without threat.

The other issue that remains is time. Working professionals, or people progressing within their studies are busy! It can be really draining to be at work throughout the day, to come home afterwards. To be fair, the best thing is rubbish television and an early night. So how does one occupy their spare time with activism or humanism when they have other priorities? The good part is that there is a good sense of transition from Humanist Students to Young Humanists for young people wanting to be involved. As a result, social media remains a great function to reach members from far afield.

It can be a long road before someone actually comes to the decision that they could be part of humanism. There remains no reason for the non-religious to attempt at converting people to being non-religious. It would be absurd. As a result, it is a decision that someone comes to on their own trail of thought. We are reliant on an individual’s ability to think differently to what they may have been brought up thinking, and this is why longevity is a factor – it is a difficult decision to come to, and as a result, we need to be more prepared to ensure that we can support people when they come to such a junction. We need to work to find ways in which young professionals and young adults can be more involved, where they can find their sense of purpose.

6. Jacobsen: Hannah, you had a background not only with the Amish, but also with the Evangelical Baptists or Evangelical Baptist communities and then transitioned into the humanist community. Same with Hari, being an apostate. Same with Angelos being a former Christian.

These are three common experiences. Two from similar faiths. One from another Abrahamic faith. These are narratives of transitioning from a religious faith, out of it, and into not only rejecting the faith in atheism but also affirming a humanist life.

What have been some similar experiences that you have noted from others as well as insight that you can bring to those who have not had religion discussed in the household and who grew up agnostics, atheists, and so on?

Timson: That is quite an interesting question. You do come across a lot of people – and this more and more the case – who simply never talked about religion. It has never been on their radar. I do not know. It is very interesting. I tend to find, and this will sound really cruel, that the people who come from religious backgrounds, who have transitioned from being religious to then being a Humanist, tend to have a hell of a lot more – this will sound really mean – empathy with people who are religious.

I think it takes time to get there because, I think, a lot of people when they first leave religion…

Parekh: [Laughing].

Timson: …are kind of mad. They are like, “Man, you have lied to me for all of this time,” [Laughing], “Like wow.” But then you realize, a lot of people did it out of love because they truly, truly believe in this religious tradition.

You can kind of empathize because you were in that position, because you did believe all of that stuff. A hell of a lot more than people perhaps who never talked about religion. It flummoxes me. I cannot empathize with people who don’t ask these questions, to be honest. My house is literally like a theology seminary. It is just non-stop conversation about the meaning of the universe and stuff. I sometimes I wish I could talk abut Jeremy Kyle.

That is the biggest difference that I have noticed. It is that there is a lot less empathy and understanding. But not everybody, obviously, this is a generalization from people who perhaps come from a less religious background. I also think there is an interesting conversation and something I am thinking about while I write my dissertation about non-religious people and how they interact with the religious people.

There seems to be a difference in language. This might have something to do with the empathy thing. Not necessarily the words that we use, but the way that we use them. I haven’t read enough studies on this, but it is quite interesting.

I will be on a panel with people who have never been religious, ever, and, obviously myself who was hugely religious – an Evangelical, proselytizing Christian [Laughing] – and I’ll be sitting beside people who think, “Wow, what idiots,” [Laughing], not everybody, but I tend to find there is more dismissiveness from people who have never been religious.

You are on this panel with somebody else who has never been religious. Perhaps, you are against the Evangelical Christian Union or whatever. There was this one time when, for example, we were discussing relatively interesting but, in my opinion, pointless questions of theological questions with some people from Oxford.

The answers from my friends, who have always been relatively non-religious; as logical and sensible as they were there was a kind of a lack of empathy, we didn’t speak the same language. When I spoke, people said, “Wow, you have got a heart. God is working in you.”

I was like, “That was not God.”

Parekh: [Laughing]…

Timson: “I am just a really soppy human being,” you know? I use very romantic language and always have. I do not know. This is not a scientific study. I have been to other debates with scientists. You have Christian scientists – not the Christian scientists who go looking for the Ark, but scientists who are Christians – and non-religious scientists.

You do see a marked difference in the way you use language in the conversations that you have. For me, actually, it has been a real – going to use the word – “blessing” [Laughing] or a real benefit to be able to use the language and understand what people say.

You can’t always, but generally to understand what people mean when they use certain words or say certain things, “God is in the space. Can you feel the Holy Spirit?” From my experiences,I can empathize, I do not say, as many do, “That is non-sense, what are they talking about?”

I think, “At this moment in time, they are expressing a feeling.” That ability to, in some ways, be bilingual is interesting. I was talking to Quakers, who tend to have a lot of non-theist Quakers – so are a mixture atheist and theist Quakers. Some will say, “This religious language is not useful in everyday life.  We do not use it in that way. We use it express ourselves, to express something that we can’t quite get out in secular terms.” That has been an interesting field of study for me because I couldn’t quite understand what people weren’t quite getting.

It was really frustrating when having conversations with other atheists. Having to say, “don’t you understand that these people aren’t stupid, that actually they are expressing their emotions and feelings in a way that perhaps people who have never been religious, there’s a dimension there that they have never ventured in to?” So therefore, there’s a whole realm of language that was never used. Maybe, you do not need to use it. But it is an interesting distinction.

Jacobsen: Any concluding statements or feelings? We are out of time.

Timson: I just think that it is very, very important to remember that humanism is an alternative. It is a community. It is growing, however, slowly it might feel. Sometimes, things take a little while to catch on, particularly among young people.

Young people are feeling disenfranchised from labels: Church of England, and this and that. People feel, I think, worried about this word “humanist.” We have a conversation about whether we call ourselves “Humanist Students” or the “AHS.”

Parekh: [Laughing]

Timson: The semantics of it all got a bit too much, but I think at the end of the day, we are trying to build a non-religious alternative and say, “You know what? You can think for yourself. You can do things for yourself, but sometimes you need some help.”

We are here to provide a community that says, “I will respect your actions. I will respect that things that you do, but I am here to catch you when you fall.” I think that is something that religion sometimes does, not always, but they have those structures in place. We need those in some ways. [Laughing] Maybe, people will probably not like to say that we can learn from religious organizations, but I think sometimes its unnecessary to reinvent the wheel [Laughing]. It is necessary as social creatures to have a support unit to catch you as you fall: no man is an island.

Quite a lot of the time, non-religious people either don’t think about it or they do think about it and are so mad about the whole organized religion thing that they reject all forms of structure and community and say, “I am better off on my own, don’t touch me.”

At the end of the day, you end up with communities that are quite lonely. Humanism is the answer to that. That’s my ending statement [Laughing].

Parekh: I think young people that are trying to understand religion better, trying to rationalize religion, trying to move away from religion – anyone of these situations is going to be difficult. There is always going to be the feeling of, if I leave my religious faith, what will make me feel secure. Religion has the ability to make people feel soothed and secure, and as a result, leaving their religious faith can be a really difficult decision for them to make.

This is the thing about religion. Religion does not happen in its own entirety. It happens in support of community, tradition, and culture. As a result, when people lose a religious faith or someone decides it is not for me and does not work, they are losing not just their religious faith, but also moving away in the eyes of others, from their culture and tradition and the system they know. By doing so, this creates the opportunity for that person to be shunned and abandoned by the people they love.

When they are at university and are isolated, and are alone, and like, “I am trying to find my feet again,” they may feel isolated and lonely. The issue: who is there to catch you before you fall? That is important. Having Humanist Student Societies on campus can help to support that person, to be their community.

This community should not be the isolated either, by supporting such students. It requires chaplaincy services at university, mental health services at university, further work from student unions to understand that there are people going through such niche transitions that need support.

There remains a need and a purpose to help students who are going through a transition of being non-religious whilst at the university. It is not the role of the non-religious society to convert them to a life of non-religion/ humanism, and it is definitely not the role of the chaplaincy service to convert them back to religion. It remains the individual’s sole decision, whether they decide to make the decision for themselves of whether they are religious or not. If you are just atheistic, that is fine. But there is a need and a purpose to have mechanisms that can support students in such a way.

Sofocleous: As a final point, I’d like to say that humanists are not obsessed with religion. Humanism is much bigger than that – it is not only for non-religious people. It is also for people who are skeptics and like to question things, question pseudoscience, people who fight for freedom of speech and human rights.

As humanists, we base our approach to issues that concern humanity and human societies on reason and rational thinking, which for most of us is a way away from religion and towards science and rationalistic ways of thinking. That is really a characteristic of humanists.

It is also the case that most of us are ex-religious – I don’t know if I would prefer to grow up as an atheist – probably I would. But, as a non-religious person, I can now see the ‘positive’ side of me growing up in a religious environment. Like most other humanists I’ve met, we are able to understand the spread of fear, irrational thinking, and discrimination, among others, that takes place in religious communities. We are able to know how religious people think, and that’s because we were, at some point in our lives, one of them.

This is not to say that we should build barriers between religious and non-religious people. Not at all. It really helps to bring both non-religious and religious people together in the way that we can communicate with them because it really is important that we speak the same language when we communicate.

7. Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, everyone.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] President Emeritus (Hari Parekh); President (Hannah Lucy Timson); President-Elect (Angelos Sofocleous).

[2] Individual Publication Date: July 15, 2018: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/parekh-timson-sofocleous; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Three Administrations of Humanist Student Leaders Dialogue About Humanism: Hari Parekh, Hannah Lucy Timson, and Angelos Sofocleous [Online].July 2018; 17(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/parekh-timson-sofocleous.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, July 15). Three Administrations of Humanist Student Leaders Dialogue About Humanism: Hari Parekh, Hannah Lucy Timson, and Angelos Sofocleous. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/parekh-timson-sofocleous.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Three Administrations of Humanist Student Leaders Dialogue About Humanism: Hari Parekh, Hannah Lucy Timson, and Angelos Sofocleous. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A, July. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/parekh-timson-sofocleous>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “Three Administrations of Humanist Student Leaders Dialogue About Humanism: Hari Parekh, Hannah Lucy Timson, and Angelos Sofocleous.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/parekh-timson-sofocleous.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Three Administrations of Humanist Student Leaders Dialogue About Humanism: Hari Parekh, Hannah Lucy Timson, and Angelos Sofocleous.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A (July 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/parekh-timson-sofocleous.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Three Administrations of Humanist Student Leaders Dialogue About Humanism: Hari Parekh, Hannah Lucy Timson, and Angelos Sofocleous‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/parekh-timson-sofocleous>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Three Administrations of Humanist Student Leaders Dialogue About Humanism: Hari Parekh, Hannah Lucy Timson, and Angelos Sofocleous‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/parekh-timson-sofocleous.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Three Administrations of Humanist Student Leaders Dialogue About Humanism: Hari Parekh, Hannah Lucy Timson, and Angelos Sofocleous.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 17.A (2018):July. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/parekh-timson-sofocleous>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Three Administrations of Humanist Student Leaders Dialogue About Humanism: Hari Parekh, Hannah Lucy Timson, and Angelos Sofocleous [Internet]. (2018, July; 17(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/parekh-timson-sofocleous.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

1 Comment
2018-07-08

An Interview with Cory Efram Doctorow (Part One)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 17.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Thirteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: July 8, 2018

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,748

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Cory Doctorow is an Activist, Blogger, Journalist, and Science Fiction Writer. He discusses: geographic, cultural, and linguistic background; the influence on personal development of the background; pivotal moments in life; the ability to travel by bus and intellectual development; advice for gifted and talented youths; and an honorary doctorate from Open University.

Keywords: activist, Cory Efram Doctorow, journalist, science fiction, writer.

Interview with Cory Efram Doctorow: Blogger, Journalist, and Science Fiction Writer (Part One)[1],[2],[3]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview. *

*This interview was conducted in two parts with the first on April 12, 2016 and the second on July 1, 2016. *

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Duly noted, the biographical information on the website remain out of date because the information appears update on July 30, 2015 – about an eternity ago.[4] With this in mind, and before the in-depth aspects of the interview, let’s cover some of the background. Those with an interest in more detailed information can review the footnotes and references provided throughout and at the end of the interview. In terms of geography, culture, and language, where does your personal and familial background reside?

Cory Doctorow: Geography, culture, and language, well, my father’s parents are from Eastern Europe. My grandmother was born in Leningrad. My grandfather was born in a country that is now Poland, but was then Belarus, a territory rather, that is now Polish but was then Belarusian. My father was born while his parents were in a displaced persons camp in Azerbaijan and his first language was Yiddish. My mother’s family are first and second generation Ukrainian-Russian Romanians. Her first language was English, but her mother’s first language was French and was raised in Quebec. I was born in Canada. My first language is English. And I attended Yiddish school at a radical socialist Yiddish program run by the Workman’s Circle until I was 13.

I was raised in Canada. I moved to Central America – the Costa Rican-Nicaraguan border – when I was in my early 20s and from there to California, and I ping-ponged back-and-forth between Northern California and Canada for some years, and then I re-settled in Northern California, and then in the United Kingdom, and then in Los Angeles, and then back in the United Kingdom, and then back in Los Angeles, and then back in the United Kingdom, and I am currently residing outside of Los Angeles in Burbank, and seeking permanent residence in of the United States.

2. Jacobsen: In terms of the influence on development, what was it with this background?

Doctorow: I guess there is some influence. It is hard to qualify or quantify. I have written fiction about some of my family’s experiences. My grandmother was a child soldier in the siege of Leningrad. It was something that I did not know much about until I visited Saint Petersburg with her in the mid-2000s and she started to open up. I wrote a novella called After the Siege that’s built on that. I guess I have always had a sense that rhetoric about illegal immigrants or migration more generally was about my family.

All of the things that people say illegal immigrants must and mustn’t do were about the circumstances of my grandparents’ migration. My grandfather and grandmother were Red Army deserters, and they destroyed their papers after leaving Azerbaijan in order to qualify as displaced people and not be ingested back into the Soviet population. Maintaining that ruse, they were able to board a DP boat from Hamburg to Halifax, and that was how they migrated to Canada. If they had been truthful in their immigration process, they would have almost certainly ended up in the former Soviet Union and likely faced reprisals for deserting from the army as well.

3. Jacobsen: What about influences and pivotal moments in major cross-sections of early life including kindergarten, elementary school, junior high school, high school, and undergraduate studies (college/university)?

Doctorow: I went to fairly straightforward public schools. My mother is an early childhood education specialist, and she taught in my elementary school. When I was 9, we moved to a different neighbourhood, not far away, but far enough away that I could not walk to that old school anymore. At that point, I enrolled in a publicly funded alternative school called the ALP, the Alternative Learning Program. It was also too far away to walk. So, I started taking the bus on my own, which was significant in terms of my intellectual development later in life, and my ability to figure out the transit route, and jump on the bus, and go wherever it was that I wanted to go. It turned out to be extremely significant in my intellectual development. The alternative learning school, learning program rather, grouped kindergarten through grade 8 in one or two classes.

Older students were expected to teach the younger students. There was a lot of latitude to pursue the curriculum at our own pace. That was also significant in terms of my approach to learning. The school itself, when I was in grade 6, I think, or 7, and was re-homed in a much larger middle school that was much more conservative. A number of students there were military cadets. I had been active as an anti-war activist and an anti-nuclear proliferation activist that put me in conflict with the administration. I was beaten up and bullied by the students at the larger school. I was also penalized by the administration for my political beliefs. They basically did everything they could to interfere with our political organizing. We ran an activist group out of the school, and attempted protests and so on.

They would confiscate our materials, and they would allow, tacitly, those kids who were violent against us to get away with it. When I graduated from that program, my parents were keen on my attending a gifted school for grade 9. I found it terrible, focused on testing and rigid. much the opposite of the program that I had gone into and thrived in. So, after a couple months of that, I simply stopped going. Grade 9, I started taking the subway downtown and hanging out at the Metro reference library in Toronto, which is a giant reference library. At the time, they had a well-stocked microfiche and microfilm section with an archive going back to the 18th century, and I basically spent two or three weeks browsing through the paper archives, going through the subject index and then finding things that were interesting, and then reading random chapters out of books that were interesting and so on, until my parent figured out I was not going to school anymore. We had a knockdown, drag out fight. That culminated with my switching to a publicly funded alternative secondary school called AISP, Alternative Independent Study Program.

I went there for two years, and then enrolled in a school downtown called SEED school. SEED school was a much more radical, open, and alternative school, where attendance was not mandatory, courses weren’t mandatory. I took most of the school year off to organize opposition to the first Gulf war. I took most of another year off to move to Baja California, Mexico with a word processor and write. I took about 7 years altogether to graduate with a 4-year diploma, and then I went through 4 undergraduate university programs. None of which I stayed in for more than a semester.

The first was York University Interdisciplinary studies program. The second was University of Toronto’s Artificial Intelligence Program. The third was Michigan State University’s graduate writing program, which I was given early admission to, and then the fourth one was University of Waterloos independent studies program. After a semester or so at each of them, I concluded they were a bit rigid and not to my liking, and after the fourth one, after Waterloo, I figured I was not cut out for undergraduate education. The tipping point was that the undergraduate program with a thesis year. It is a year-long independent project. I proposed a multimedia hyper-textual project delivered on CD-ROM that would talk about social deviance and the internet, and while they thought the subject was interesting, they were a little dubious about it. But they were four square that anything that I did would have to show up on 8.5×11, 20-pound bond and ALA style book. And I got a job offer to program CD-ROMs from a contractor that worked with Voyager, which was one of the largest and the best multimedia publishers in the world.

I thought, “I can stay here and not do hypertext and pay you guys a lot of money, or I can take this job that pays more than I have ever mad e in my life and do exactly the work that you’re not going to let me do here.” When I thought about it in those terms, it was an easy decision to drop out and I never looked back.

4. Jacobsen: At the outset, you did mention that the ability to travel by bus was an important moment for you in terms of your intellectual development. Can you please expand on that?

Doctorow: Sure, as I went through these alternative schools, I had a large degree of freedom in terms of my time, and how I structured my work, and so, for example when I was 9 or 10, we did a school field trip to a library that was then called the Spaced Out Library, a science fiction reference collection, and now called the Merril Collection. It was founded by the writer and critic Judith Merril. She left the United States after the Chicago 1968 police riots, and moved to Canada in protest. She brought her personal library with her, which she donated to the Toronto library system, where she was the writer-in-residence. After going there once, and finding this heaven of books and reference material, and lots of other things, I started jumping on the subway whenever I had a spare moment and going down there. Merril herself, being the writer-in-residence, would meet with writers like me and critique our work. And from them, I discovered the science fiction book store, which I later went on to work at.

I would add that to my daily or weekly rounds, and go and raid their news book section, and their 25 cent rack, and began reading my way through the field. At the same time, my political activism and work in anti-nuclear proliferation movement, and the reproductive freedom movement, working as an escort at the Toronto abortion clinics to escort women through the lines of protestors. As I became more and more knowledgeable about the city, and all of its ways of getting around, I also found myself engaged with all of these different communities.

5. One of things that seems like a trend to me, and you can correct me if I am wrong, please. In the sense that, you have the rigid part of the educational system that you did go through. So, for instance, the earlier gifted program that you disliked, but when you had more freedom you did not note any general dislike of that, and, in fact, your general trajectory seems to indicate a trend towards more open-source information and in terms of educational style, too. That seems to be your preference, and that does seem to reflect a lot of gifted and talented students’ experiences in the traditional educational system. Any advice for gifted and talented youths that might read this interview in terms of what educational resources that they can get too?

Phew. I do not know., one of the things that going through the gifted and talented program, which was called gifted back then, taught me is that gifted is like this incredibly – it is a – problematic label. It privileges a certain learning style. I mean I did not thrive in a gifted program. I did terribly in a gifted program because the gifted program seems largely about structure, and same with the undergraduate programs, imposing structure on the grounds that if kids were left to their own devices, they would goof off. For me, although, I did my share of goofing off. If I was left sufficiently bored, and if I were given enough hints about where I would find exciting things that would help me leave that boredom, I was perfectly capable of taking control of my own educational experience, and because it was self-directed it was much more meaningful and stuck much more deeply than anything that would have been imposed on me.

It is like intrinsic vs. extrinsic motivation. The things that I came to because I found them fascinating or compelling. I ended up doing in much more depth, and ended up staying with me much longer, than the things that I was made to do, and the things that the grownups and educators did for me was laid out the buffet, but not tell me what I had to pick off of it and in what order, and that was super beneficial to me. I think that when we say gifted and talented we often mean pliable or bit-able, as opposed to intellectually curious or ferocious. Although, I think we have elements of all of those in us. The selling of a gifted and talented program often comes at the expense of being independent and intrinsically motivated in your learning style.

6. You earned an honorary doctorate in computer science from the Open University (UK). What does this mean to you?

It meant rather a lot. More than I even thought it would. My parents were upset at my decision to drop out of undergraduate programs and not finish them. A decade after I dropped out of Waterloo, after I had multiple New York Times bestsellers under my belt, they were still like, “Have you thought about going back and finishing that undergraduate degree? For me, I think that undergraduate degree signified an escape and also was of becoming who they were. My grandparents were not well-educated. My grandfather was functionally illiterate in five different languages. [Laughter]. My grandmother too. My parents were arguably the first people in their family to be literate. Being the eldest of their cohort, respectively, they were the first people to become literate, not the last by any stretch, but finished a doctorate in education. For them, formal structured credentializing education was a pathway to an intellectual freedom. For me, it was the opposite, and yet it was clear that my parents – no matter what I did – were less than delighted with my progress. There would always be something missing in my progress for so long as I did not have a formal academic credential. So, they were awfully excited when I got the degree. I had some vicarious excitement. Plus, I thoroughly enjoyed to riff them on why they did it the hard way and spent all that time and money on their degree, when all you needed to do was hang around until the someone gave you one. Of course, I have more respect for the Academy that that. [Laughing]

[Laughing]

But it also meant that instrumentally gave me a lot of advantages. I have been a migrant on many occasions into many countries and have suffered from the lack of formal academic credentials. Immigration systems of most countries rely on credentialing as a heuristic of who is the person they want to resettle in their territories, and the lack of an academic credential meant that, for example, to get my 01 visa in the United States is an alien of extraordinary ability visa, which is typically only available to people with doctorate or post-doctorate credential. I needed to file paperwork that demonstrated the equivalent. My initial visa application was 600, and 900 pages in my second renewal and 1,200 pages in my recent one.

They were that long in order to convince the US immigration authorities that what I have done amounts to a graduate degree, so, that instrumental piece of it was nice, but then, finally, it was a connection to the Open University, which is an institution that I think very, highly of. Their commitment to a distance education, individualized curriculum for lifelong learning matches with my own learning style, and the way I think about pedagogy more generally. I was honored to gain this long-term affiliation with the university with what amounts to a lifelong affiliation with the university. It was exciting.

Bibliography

  1. Doctorow, C. (2016). Crap Hound. Retrieved from craphound.com.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Activist; Blogger; Journalist; Science Fiction Author.

[2] Individual Publication Date: July 8, 2018: www.in-sightjournal.com; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Photograph courtesy of Cory Efram Doctorow and Jonathan Worth Creative Commons Attribution 3.0.

[4] About Cory Doctorow (2015) states:

                Cory Doctorow (craphound.com) is a science fiction author, activist, journalist and blogger — the co-editor of Boing Boing (boingboing.net) and the author of many books, most recently IN REAL LIFE, a graphic novel; INFORMATION DOES NOT WANT TO BE FREE, a book about earning a living in the Internet age, and HOMELAND, the award-winning, best-selling sequel to the 2008 YA novel LITTLE BROTHER.

            One paragraph:

                Cory Doctorow (craphound.com) is a science fiction author, activist, journalist and blogger — the co-editor of Boing Boing (boingboing.net) and the author of the YA graphic novel IN REAL LIFE, the nonfiction business book INFORMATION DOES NOT WANT TO BE FREE< and young adult novels like HOMELAND, PIRATE CINEMA and LITTLE BROTHER and novels for adults like RAPTURE OF THE NERDS and MAKERS. He works for the Electronic Frontier Foundation and co-founded the UK Open Rights Group. Born in Toronto, Canada, he now lives in Los Angeles.

            Full length:

                Cory Doctorow (craphound.com) is a science fiction novelist, blogger and technology activist. He is the co-editor of the popular weblog Boing Boing (boingboing.net), and a contributor to The Guardian, Publishers Weekly, Wired, and many other newspapers, magazines and websites. He is a special consultant to the Electronic Frontier Foundation (eff.org), a non-profit civil liberties group that defends freedom in technology law, policy, standards and treaties. He holds an honorary doctorate in computer science from the Open University (UK), where he is a Visiting Professor; in 2007, he served as the Fulbright Chair at the Annenberg Center for Public Diplomacy at the University of Southern California.

                His novels have been translated into dozens of languages and are published by Tor Books, Titan Books (UK) and HarperCollins (UK) and simultaneously released on the Internet under Creative Commons licenses that encourage their re-use and sharing, a move that increases his sales by enlisting his readers to help promote his work. He has won the Locus and Sunburst Awards, and been nominated for the Hugo, Nebula and British Science Fiction Awards.

                His two latest books are IN REAL LIFE, a young adult graphic novel created with Jen Wang (2014); and INFORMATION DOES NOT WANT TO BE FREE, a business book about creativity in the Internet age (2014).

                His latest young adult novel is HOMELAND, the bestselling sequel to 2008’s LITTLE BROTHER. His latest novel for adults is RAPTURE OF THE NERDS, written with Charles Stross and published in 2012. His New York Times Bestseller LITTLE BROTHER was published in 2008. His latest short story collection is WITH A LITTLE HELP, available in paperback, ebook, audiobook and limited edition hardcover. In 2011, Tachyon Books published a collection of his essays, called CONTEXT: FURTHER SELECTED ESSAYS ON PRODUCTIVITY, CREATIVITY, PARENTING, AND POLITICS IN THE 21ST CENTURY (with an introduction by Tim O’Reilly) and IDW published a collection of comic books inspired by his short fiction called CORY DOCTOROW’S FUTURISTIC TALES OF THE HERE AND NOW. THE GREAT BIG BEAUTIFUL TOMORROW, a PM Press Outspoken Authors chapbook, was also published in 2011.

                LITTLE BROTHER was nominated for the 2008 Hugo, Nebula, Sunburst and Locus Awards. It won the Ontario Library White Pine Award, the Prometheus Award as well as the Indienet Award for bestselling young adult novel in America’s top 1000 independent bookstores in 2008; it was the San Francisco Public Library’s One City/One Book choice for 2013. It has also been adapted for stage by Josh Costello.

                He co-founded the open source peer-to-peer software company OpenCola, and serves on the boards and advisory boards of the Participatory Culture Foundation, the Clarion Foundation, the Metabrainz Foundation and The Glenn Gould Foundation.

                On February 3, 2008, he became a father. The little girl is called Poesy Emmeline Fibonacci Nautilus Taylor Doctorow, and is a marvel that puts all the works of technology and artifice to shame.

Doctorow, C. (2015, July 30). About Cory Doctorow. Retrieved from http://craphound.com/bio/.

 

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Cory Efram Doctorow (Part One) [Online].July 2018; 17(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/doctorow-one.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, July 8). An Interview with Cory Efram Doctorow (Part One). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/doctorow-one.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Cory Efram Doctorow (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A, July. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/doctorow-one>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Cory Efram Doctorow (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/doctorow-one.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Cory Efram Doctorow (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A (July 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/doctorow-one.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Cory Efram Doctorow (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/doctorow-one>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Cory Efram Doctorow (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/doctorow-one.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Cory Efram Doctorow (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 17.A (2018):July. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/doctorow-one>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Cory Efram Doctorow (Part One) [Internet]. (2018, July; 17(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/doctorow-one.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

1 Comment
2018-07-08

Interview with Bob Kuhn, J.D. (Part Three)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 17.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Thirteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: July 8, 2018

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 4,071

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Bob Kuhn, J.D. is the President of Trinity Western University (TWU). He discusses: the legislation of behaviour; the Canadian community; the question of how much Canadians are willing to sacrifice; interaction with prior TWU presidents; diet cokes and tuna sandwiches; limited edition Bob Kuhn’s coons; precision in language; and the summary of the New Testament Gospel.

Keywords: Bob Kuhn, CEO, Christian, president, religion, Trinity Western University.

Interview with Bob Kuhn, J.D.: President, Trinity Western University (Part Three)[1],[2],[3]

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: I thought about the legislation of behaviour. Even – pardon the phrases – murderers, rapists, and child molesters in prison, their behaviour is highly controlled, but we can probably agree.

The ones guilty and in prison rather than wrongful convictions pretty much have bad hearts, but their behaviour is very tightly “legislated.”

Bob Kuhn: Our recidivism rate is through the roof. The US ability to incarcerate new people is questionable.

Jacobsen: [Laughing] if they put a big wall around the entire country…

Kuhn: [Laughing] Yes, yes, a big wall to trap all the people inside.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Kuhn: It defies a characterization. Christianity defies a characterization. That the heart is something at issue here. One’s heart is in need of repair. So, the way we go about living out those values that have the reparative effect. How do we go out loving people we have strong disagreements with? That is, ultimately, the success of a community, I think.

It can be a pretty wonderful thing.

2. Jacobsen: What is our largest community? It is the Canadian community.

Kuhn: Right.

Jacobsen: If we dismiss that entirely or in its entirety, it could lead to problems for sub-communities within the country as well – as a general point.

If you infringe on the individual rights of a person based on the group they are identified with on some standardized definition of the group – because there are concerns about the community and the individual, it is very hard to disentangle sometimes, and, of course, you would know better than I would in legal contexts; if someone’s right is infringed based on group identity, then both the individual and the group are infringed upon.

So, you take one of the most dramatic examples in the early to middle 20th century. Some were accepted by the government definition of being Jewish descent or heritage. So, say, you are born of a Jewish mother, but do not practice the Jewish religion.

You are ethnically Jewish by descent by the mother, but you are not by religion. So – I do not know if this is the case, you are sent to the work camps or incineration. The group is hugely violated, massively violated, at the same time the individual is violated.

The conversations we have been having in and out today, around the individual and the community. There are some threads that tie the two together.

Kuhn: Yes, for sure. The metaphor used in the New Testament is the “body,” the Body of Christ. So, if one part of the body hurts, then the whole body carries the pain. It is not as if you isolate that.

Individual rights do not get isolated. It does not have an affect. AIDs, for instance, there is a whole community of people. As far as I understand, the Aboriginal and Indigenous communities are suffering the consequences of AIDs.

I supposed there are reasons for that. We can talk about the reasons of that. But the whole community hurts. We can say, “We can fix that by legislating that.” You are not going to fix it that way. Trying to legislate people’s hearts, when you can only legislate their behaviour.

There will always be ways in which people go back to legislating behaviour. This is where I go back to ED (Equality, Diversity, and Inclusivity) – trying to legislate that. We are going to get it wrong, more wrong than right.

I think what we have done is a reasonably good job at educating people at why this is important to consider and why we have gender inequity in the workforce. That is more compelling when we are educating and legislating.

I probably did not follow your script very well.

Jacobsen: One point about EDI, as a standardized policy. Even if there is sufficient consultation of things, I hesitate. I say this as a young person. I hesitate at too rapid of a reform in a country that ranks very high on education – elementary, middle, high, and post-secondary (undergraduate and graduate) – as well as the quality of life metrics.

This is by international organizations. That might be organs publishing studies through the United Nations. These rankings are an indication of overall success in providing for the needs of the people of the country.

So, rapid change amounts to saying, “We have a much better solution to all your ills. So, let us jump on that train.” Yet, we rank so high. Who else do we have to compare to? Some of the Scandinavian countries, Iceland, Finland, and so on.

These countries only do marginally better. It is the Jerry Seinfeld joke. The person in first place on the sprint about 1/100th of a second ahead. One guy 1/1,000th second behind. Never heard of him.

It is in that sense. We are doing so well on education, so well on quality of life metrics, which is a general term for health and wellbeing and all the other things. That to say that it has to be done rapidly and that these are obviously the right solutions.

It raises questions for me as a Canadian citizen, not necessarily the efficacy of it, but the rapid implementation of it. That raises question marks to me.

Kuhn: That is a good point: the means by which and the speed by which changes are advocated and are legislated means we are not carefully considering the consequences. One of things is that the inequity in the media.

The attention in North American media to things that are totally meaningless. Yet, we don’t talk about that being inequitable. We do not talk about people starving in other countries are suffering injustices.

If that was equivalent to WWII, we would not say, “That is a mess over there. We can only focus over here.” In a sense, it expands on the community discussion. That we have not taken responsibility internationally.

That we have put out our – as you put it – potential to be slightly elevated beyond where we are now, to the top of the heap. We would put that above the people suffering problems that we could solve in a weekend if we just put out minds to it

3. Jacobsen: Let me take an example of Marielle Franco, she was 38. She was an up-and-coming career politician. A lot of people in that community in Brazil loved her. She was found with four bullets in her head.

That is a different sort of problem. In America, there were at least seven political assassinations: Kennedy, X, King, another Kennedy [Laughing]. These people were being assassinated based on political differences.

So, just on levels of rapid change, of removal through death, of political leaders, we do not have that. They might have a health problem. With on mayor, allegations that turned out to be true with drug use.

People would say, “The crackhead mayor of Toronto.” People make fun of those. It is not catastrophically bad. It is bad. It is bad by some historical Canadian standards, but it is not the end of the world by any comparison.

I agree with you. In the sense, we should be focusing on others who are in less fortunate circumstances. Based on the metrics, this is one of the best systems around. I agree with another point.

“Yes, but…” our focus internally is only based on how far we can extend our influence or reach. We are only a country of 36 million. California state has more people than we do as a country maybe 1.5 million or 2 million people.

As well, the kinds of foci that people might have; those are only going to be local. They are going to be within their community. They are going to be based on the community or municipality with some more reach, or the province or territory if some more reach.

Even federally, we are seen by the World Economic Forum, I believe, as having the most positive influence on the world out of any other country. At the same time, what does that mean in practical terms?

We are a tiny country. We are pulling our weight. We are not pulling Singapore weight per capita, but we are pulling a good weight for a positive image. At the same time, at what point is it reasonable to expect we are influencing other countries?

Kuhn: I question how much Canadians are willing to sacrifice for the benefit of the population of the globe. I think self-interest ranks pretty high in our list of priorities in our country. That is true of probably all countries, to a greater or lesser extent.

Unless, you have been to those other places and let them touch you heart, “How do you feel going to a full grocery store and jobs?” There is a lot to be said for transporting people away from their comfort zone.

I am intrigued by some of the good stories of people who come here from Syria and other areas. I am thinking of one of our bookkeepers who came from Syria. He was telling a story, a remarkable story. His whole attitude was one of humility and thankfulness.

He was appreciative of everything this country had given him. But yet, that story really does not filter down very far. We tend to gravitate towards the harsh things. I often think one of the benefits of being in a university like this is that there is a high value given to many of the students to service and sacrifice to a certain extent, and caring about those around you. I forgot the stats exactly, but a huge percentage are involved in doing something to better the community, whether it is prison work with inmates or Downtown Eastside.

I wonder, “What is it?” Maybe, that is the best approach with one person at a time, by changing their hearts with care and concern for people. I do think that we are overfed.

Jacobsen: Also, over-sassy.

Kuhn: Yes, fat and sassy, it is an interesting time. It is a very interesting time to be alive.

4. Jacobsen: As the fourth president of Trinity Western University, and you have been working here for several years, and with the work in Parkinson’s activism, what is potential advice prior presidents of Trinity Western gave to you upon earning the position, as well as others you may have met in other leadership arenas, e.g. the work in Parkinson’s?

Some of them may have read the blog Positively Parkinson’s and were influential in that world. They say, “Not only are you going to make a great president, but you should talk to Bob or Jimmy over here,” then they give you some advice.

Kuhn: I, unfortunately, didn’t have the opportunity to gather much advice from my predecessors. I would probably go back to the first president who was the president when I was a student here in the 70s

He had some interesting things. He used them quite often. I often reflect on that. If Christ is Lord, then nothing is secular.

Jacobsen: I remember hearing that from some of your work. Can you elaborate on that?

Kuhn: I think, as Christians who follow Christ, there is no aspect of living that is not touched by that commitment or that relationship – or “worldview” I will call it from an intellectual perspective. It touches everything.

It is one of the things that makes sense to me. No matter what we do or how we do it, it sounds trite. Yet, I find myself repeating it more times than I can remember. It is to remember to do the right thing, in the right way, with the right attitude.

Of course, the “right” implies some “moral” or “better than.” It is probably not a helpful terminology. The right thing, we usually know what is the right thing to do. We do not know if it is the right way to do it.

Even more, we do not know if we are doing it with the right attitude. But as I try to measure, “Is this the right thing to do? Is this the right way to do it? Is this the right attitude?” if I do not have all those three, then they are probably wrong in some sense.

If I have all those three, then I think I can stand and say, “I approached this. If I am wrong, forgive me.” But that sort of dovetails with what Calvin B. Hanson used to say. I think that is an all-pervasive summary.

From the Parkinson’s community, I think, there is a ton. I have learned a ton from being someone who has the constant companion of Parkinson’s. It is a very, sometimes, demanding but very good teacher.

It teaches not just a form of humility. Because do you want to be humiliated or humble?

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Kuhn: If you aren’t humble, it will make you so in a big hurry. It teaches you compassion because you learn there are a lot of people hurting in a lot of ways. You have something that they do not understand and maybe can’t understand, but they try to understand.

That goes a long way, if they try to hear what your heart is saying in coping with a disease that is incurable so far, and will only get worse. The Parkinson’s community has taught me to not be afraid to talk about physical disabilities

That, in itself, creates harm, because we feel uncomfortable. Nobody feels particularly comfortable talking to somebody in a wheelchair, but if you get down to where they are looking rather than having them look up at you.

It is quite a magical thing. It makes them human. Parkinson’s did that more for me than I thought. I would not have guessed that. I thought I was reasonably compassionate before. But I was processing compassion in the head.

People don’t want pity. Sometimes, they do.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Kuhn: People definitely want to be understood. The effort you make to try to understand. It shows the value of listening and silence.

5. Jacobsen: Why do you have tuna sandwiches and diet cokes every lunch?

Kuhn: Oh my gosh. I used to. But these days, I have been changing things up. Sometimes, it is easier to not have to make decisions.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Kuhn: I make a lot of decisions every day. Just not having to choose what to eat for lunch, it is probably good for me, except the diet coke.  I have made some change to a roast beef sandwich. Parkinson’s has dulled my sense of smell. It dulls things.

My olfactory glands not producing necessary receptors to translate smell. Taste is somewhat diminished because of the smell. That is one of those sneak-up-on-you parts of Parkinson’s. When Alexa and Shawn, two interns who I had and you met, that was the tuna sandwich and diet coke phase. I don’t know why.

Now, I go to the cafeteria.

6. Jacobsen: Why were Bob Kuhn’s coons or Kuhn’s Coons limited edition? What charity did you sell them or auction them off to?

Kuhn: I originally thought of the idea leading up to the Montreal 2013 World Parkinson’s Congress. I was an ambassador for that. In 2012, I did a world round-trip. Part of my goal in this, my friend and I took two-and-a-half months and travelled to 17 countries.

As somebody related to the Parkinson’s community, I thought, “It would be cool, like a Flat Stanley.” Flat Stanley is this contrived character that is flat. It is a cut out. It is taken and put in pictures from all around the world.

“This is us and Flat Stanley in Peru. This is us and Flat Stanley in Paris.” The creation of a flat character that I could take pictures with around the world for people. That was the idea. It grew into not having a mascot for World Parkinson’s. What about a raccoon?

It has some attributes similar to people with Parkinson’s. I won’t bore you with that. I said, “I will buy 1,000 raccoons.” I had them made. I had someone develop the design. I bought a thousand raccoon plush toys. You can have one if you want.

Jacobsen: Sure [Ed. I was given one later].

Kuhn: It was a hit! It didn’t sell a 1,000. That was an optimistic goal. I wanted to beef it up. I bought the rest back. I used them as opportunities to talk to children about Parkinson’s disease. I call them Parkie.

Whenever someone brings their kids, I love kids. I love babies. I get a lot of people coming by. I give them a Parkie and explain a little bit about Parkie. Their parents are then given an introduction into why Bob sometimes has the shakes.

I have a nine-year-old grandson. It is sort of fashioned to be a conversation-starter with respect to Parkinson’s. It caught on. Then they had a big mascot. In Portland in 2016, the World Parkinson’s Congress happens every 3 years.

So, they had a big, huge mascot. A big huge cut out for pictures to be taken. I understand the next one is going to be in Japan. It has been a great, fun story to tell. When I was growing up, my nickname was “Coonskin.”

I identified with the raccoon for some reason.

6. Jacobsen: As a lawyer, you have a precision with language. When someone asks, “How are you?” they reply, “I am good.” Why does that not sit well with you?

Kuhn: It has been a pet peeve for a while. I was probably corrected at one point in time. That, to say that, is inaccurate. Typically, you are not more good than anyone else. That you are “well.” I say that is the proper English.

English has been expanded to include colloquialisms like “I am good.” But still, when you think about it, are you good? I sometimes might be good. Mother Teresa is someone who is good. I do not dwell on that.

It is more of a grammatical issue. I want especially young people to use the language with some abandon, using the word “like” four times in a sentence.

Jacobsen: Or using “really” or “you know.”

Kuhn: Using “uhm” as a start to a sentence or a filler between two sentences, I, especially the president’s interns, tell them I am going to rough on them about speaking and convince them that you can hear yourself as you speak and can correct your language.

That the more you hear yourself speak, then the less you will use filler words and words that are else appropriate. With some people, that sticks. I hope to improve language skills. It is partially a vocabulary skill as well.

I think learning to look up words that you don’t know expands your horizons and increases your ability to communicate. That increases your ability to have relationships that are perhaps more full, more significant. Maybe that is all wishful thinking.

7. Jacobsen: Developing in the German-Stoic family background, in the Baptist tradition, and transitioning into the more formal Evangelical tradition seen at Trinity Western University, what best summarizes the New Testament Gospel to you?

Kuhn: I think the quintessential nature of the New Testament Gospel was John 3:16, “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

That is the King James because [Laughing] that is what we grew up with. Except, that was memorized when I was too young to know any versions at all. I probably wouldn’t use that version today. Certainly, my upbringing would be consistent with the Evangelical perspective.

So, for me, there is no inconsistency for the historical roots of my faith. I think that belief in a God that cares, that loves, that is interested in every detail of your life, and allows us to make choices on our own at the same time as being involved and interested in our lives.

That paradox of a God of the universe and a God who cares is, to me, essential. The Gospel message of responding to our, whether we admit or not, depraved state is necessary. When we talk about hope, for me, that is the hope.

There is a Bible reference. I have forgotten what the actual address of that reference. But I think it is out of Paul’s letters. It said, “Be always ready to give the reason for the hope that lies within.” For me, I cannot imagine living life without the hope that lies within.

That is a daily response. That is the Parkinson’s that taps me on the shoulder 24/7. It is as meaningful as anything that I can imagine. Without that hope, I think that I would be relegated to the heaps of optimists with cynical attitudes.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Kuhn: I understand that at some level, but I find no matter what question I have been able to come up with that seems important to me. I find the answer in a Christian approach, a Christian faith.

It fits me very well. It fits, I think, many others well. It answers the deepest questions. At the same time, it doesn’t provide glib responses to those questions. At least, it doesn’t in my opinion. I am sure others would differ.

I find it – what would be the word – satisfying at a heart deep, soul deep level. It removes the anxiety that otherwise plagues my life or would without it. I am not what you call, probably, a “Bible Thumper.” I do not wear my faith on my sleeve like some people do.

I am conscious of my propensity for hypocrisy. That is a start.

8. Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Mr. Kuhn.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] President, Trinity Western University.

[2] Individual Publication Date: July 8, 2018 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bob-kuhn-three; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] J.D. (1979), University of British Columbia (J.D. 1979); B.A. (1976), University of British Columbia; A.A. (1972), Trinity Western College.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Interview with Bob Kuhn, J.D. (Part Three) [Online].July 2018; 17(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bob-kuhn-three.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, July 8). Interview with Bob Kuhn, J.D. (Part Three). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bob-kuhn-three.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Interview with Bob Kuhn, J.D. (Part Three). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A, July. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bob-kuhn-three>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “Interview with Bob Kuhn, J.D. (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bob-kuhn-three.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Interview with Bob Kuhn, J.D. (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A (July 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bob-kuhn-three.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Interview with Bob Kuhn, J.D. (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bob-kuhn-three>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Interview with Bob Kuhn, J.D. (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bob-kuhn-three.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Interview with Bob Kuhn, J.D. (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 17.A (2018):July. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bob-kuhn-three>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Interview with Bob Kuhn, J.D. (Part Three) [Internet]. (2018, July; 17(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bob-kuhn-three.

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2018-07-01

Interview with Bob Kuhn, J.D. (Part Two)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 17.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Thirteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: July 1, 2018

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 4,181

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Bob Kuhn, J.D. is the President of Trinity Western University (TWU). He discusses: leading a nation; justice versus mercy; former prime minister interviews; hope and optimism; increased depression and hopelessness in youth; joke about phones and other devices; and bullying, FIRE, Greg Lukianoff, Sally Satel, universities, crime rates, and being socially blind.

Keywords: Bob Kuhn, CEO, Christian, president, religion, Trinity Western University.

Interview with Bob Kuhn, J.D.: President, Trinity Western University (Part Two)[1],[2],[3]

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: It takes a special person to look at the position of prime minister of Canada or the president of the United States, or leaders of other advanced industrial economies – most often in East Asia, Western Europe, and North America – and think, “I can do that.”

It was something noted in the earlier part of the interview. It seems the disposition is a certain sense of grandiosity.

Not necessarily in an unhealthy way in every case, there is a certain self-confidence of some leaders, which is appealing and can do positive things in international relation and in doing diplomatic work.

At the same time, it can be unhealthy.

Bob Kuhn: Disastrous. I think the issue is if a leader can be confident without being arrogant. What is the place of humility? Clearly, we don’t want any false humility. In my experience, what is typically missing in most leaders is this true sense of humility.

That they themselves should see themselves as privileged to have the opportunity from where they are. It comes from a deep sense of gratitude. That deep sense of “You do not deserve this. Nobody deserves what they got. If people got what they deserved, we would be in a lot worse shape than we are.”

We would be born in some disadvantaged area of the globe in some potentially war-torn, starvation ravaged area. The self-focus, it is one of the reasons that I like Patrick Lencioni, he emphasises the need for humility in leadership.

He characterized it as an essential quality. That is where I think a lot of our leaders lack humility, a true sense of humility. Without it, that, to me, translates into they’re relying on their own devices, their own wits, their own political power, or whatever, and not recognizing that they have a tremendous need to be thankful for all that they have and to be there as a service.

I see leadership as a service to others. It is a sacrifice. If it is not a sacrifice, then current-day leaders should not sacrifice at a certain level. But if it is not sacrifice in service of others, then you got the wrong leader.

Sacrifice is one of those terms people do not use very often anymore. “I have to give something up?”

Jacobsen: [Laughing] Same with virtue.

Kuhn: Right, in today’s parlance, is there a place for virtue? That gets translated into many other things that might be considered moralistic or religious in some cases or views. I think a lot of that comes through the fact that we have become so individual rights oriented.

I have practiced law for a long time now. I always hated the case where I had to represent Goliath. I would rather be on the side of David. Because the court would be all on my side. We, as a society, have come to expect that.

It helps compensate for some of the imbalance of power. However, it defies an objective sense of justice. Clients used to say, “I want justice.” I would say, “Well, we have a legal system, not a justice system. There is a world of difference. In the legal system, we play by rules and try to advocate for our position, but we can’t necessarily dispense justice. We try. Some people try harder than others.”

If you expect justice from the legal system, then you will be disappointed many times.

2. Jacobsen: At the end of the day, most Canadians most of the time probably when they think about it do not want justice. They want mercy [Laughing].

Kuhn: That is a great line. They don’t want justice. If we want justice, we probably are misguided to think that we are entitled to that.

Jacobsen: Besides, our stature now in terms of quality of life came from love and self-sacrifice of – virtues in my opinion – prior generations to get us where we are. Lifespan 250 years ago or less was half, less than half, of what it is now, even for men.

Kuhn: I had a discussion yesterday. We were talking about WWII. If WWII were called today, would we have anybody to go?

Jacobsen: Primary question: would anyone qualify for the physical standards?

Kuhn: [Laughing] Yes, that is true.

Jacobsen: Second question: then would anyone have the moral gumption and courage to sacrifice their lives?

Kuhn: I think the answer is unequivocally, “No.”

3. Jacobsen: I did two interviews with the only two former prime minister who I emailed so far. There is probably a half-dozen left alive. I had trouble finding Jean Chretien, Stephen Harper, and so on. Their emails.

When I did interviews with Paul Martin and the other with Kim Campbell, both took on specific tasks of self-sacrifice from what mattered to them. Apart from disagreements some may have with what they work for, they had that value of sacrificing “my own later life for a position and finances and the stability of infrastructure of particular movements.”

Paul Martin with the Martin Family Initiative (MFI). He focuses on Indigenous youth throughout the young lifecycle on health, wellbeing, and educational outcomes. With Kim Campbell, she focuses on women’s rights and things associated with that.

Those are moderately general domains of focus relevant to things that concern them, but both are unified by that sense of sacrificing their later lives. They could be in Cancun. They do not do it.

Kuhn: One of my favourite quotes is Helen Keller, “Life is an adventure or it is nothing at all.” I use that in some of my speaking because of Parkinson’s Disease. I feel it is part of the adventure. No, I probably wouldn’t prefer to have this. But it is part of life.

You approach it with an attitude similar – I hope it is similar – to the prisoner of war. The Jewish psychologist, he lived through the concentration camps. Viktor Frankl said, “The one thing you can‘t take away from me is the way I choose to respond to what you do to me. The last of one’s freedoms is to choose one’s attitude in any given circumstance.”

The attitude that you have in adversity is the key to what you need to survive.

Jacobsen: It makes sense, to me. It makes sense to have that sense of purpose. I believe Rick Warren has an extraordinarily popular book.

Kuhn: The Purpose Driven Life.

Jacobsen: I believe Dan Barker wrote a book called Life Driven Purpose.

Kuhn: You are right. It makes sense. If there is no purpose, I think there is no hope. Without hope, people perish. I was thinking about that earlier today, talking about hope. Hope is this ephemeral thing. You have it or you don’t.

If you do lose hope, that is where depression can happen. People who have hope tend to not have depression. It is relative of course. You wonder “Where does hope come from? Is it genetic? Is it experiential? Is it some sort of worldview?”

We don’t spend enough time thinking about where hope comes from for different people. I supposed for different religions and different traditions. Without it, we are self-doomed.

4. Jacobsen: Noam Chomsky has a quote about hope or optimism. If you do not hope or have an optimism to work against something that is opposed to what is important to you, you give up. Then you guarantee the worst will happen.

If you try at least, which requires that basis of hope or optimism, then you can guarantee at least an amelioration of the types of problems that might arise. That is already pretty good because it is already moving away from the worst possible scenario.

Kuhn: I often think hope is required in daily doses. If you are not getting your daily doses of hope, whatever generates that, you end up with a sense of hopelessness because hope is deferred, deflected

I usually use that line in the context of Parkinson’s, so many people have this hope of a cure. Michael J. Fox and others, hope that someone will turn over a rock and will find a cure. That doesn’t feed you everyday. That leaves you depressed because it is still a long ways-away.

I talk about adventure. Life is an adventure. We grab hold before it spins away. We fear losing hold. We hesitate out of fear. We fail to grasp the adventure that it is all a part of life and meaning in a way.

5. Jacobsen: Whether innate or environment as the positive correlation, the sense of hopelessness leading to a real or a perceived self-generated depression. You mentioned – midway through the conversation – depression or apparent depression in students in the Millennial, plus or minus a couple years on the generational range, undergraduate and graduate students.

Do you think that lack of hope amounts to at least one factor to play into that increased depression and hopelessness among youth? If so, why?

Kuhn: Yes. I am not sure I can answer this at all. It comes back to talking a bit about what we were talking about before. The “fat and sassy” nature of our society.

Jacobsen: [Laughing] I love that phrase.

Kuhn: When Millennials see, “That is not the way the future is going to be. I cannot aspire to it.” I had mediocre grades. I had to work really hard for my marks. These days, you can work hard for your marks and still not move ahead in the lineup.

You might still end up a barista at Starbucks. “What hope is there for people who are normal like me?” They are left with fewer choices, a world more threatening in some ways. What do kids – I’ll call them, young people – have hope in? Their world is more compromised in many respects.

The opportunities are reduced. I think these things are like hope draining machines.

[Points to phone]

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Kuhn: They isolate us. The degree to which they isolate us. It is a metaphor in a sense. Parkinson’s, one of its rarely understood aspects is that it is a self-isolating disease. People who have Parkinson’s usually have  A-type personalities for an unknown reason.

They fade to black. They disappear. I am not sure as to all of the reasons. One is a lack of confidence, hope, and reason to live. All of those dark thoughts. It is a little bit like a machine. That we carry around with all of us.

We choose to self-isolate. The stats on these things are that people in the Millennial generation would rather text than have face-to-face interactions. That is astonishing to me. That the live interaction in person is down below emails.

That is really quite indicative. Why are people attracted to that?

6. Jacobsen: Jerry Seinfeld had a joke about people with iPhones or Androids. People look down slowly, chin on their chest. The question they’re asking, “Let me see, what has more buttons? My phone or your face?” [Laughing]

Kuhn: It is a remarkable commentary. Isn’t it?

Jacobsen: It is.

Kuhn: That we can’t leave it alone. We are constantly making value judgments. When people are sitting in a meeting, they are saying, “It is more important that I look at this phone than that I pay attention to my co-worker, colleague.”

Jacobsen: Who may be wincing because I said something rude.

Kuhn: Yes, it is another form of incivility in a sense. It is another form of devaluing the person. I think it generates out of this individualism that we have adopted with such vigour. Community is atomized. I forget who used that term.

Someone said that recently. Community is atomized. We are feeding that atomization by not creating some means of interacting. I frankly think that is one of the aspirations, not always achieved, of Trinity Western. It is the best thing about Trinity Western.

It is its community. We do not always succeed. But I think if you spend some time listening, being eyes and ears. You would find this to be a far different place than you would find in a secular or public university.

It is hard to explain what that is, but lots of people who have no affinity for an Evangelical Christian perspective have told me. That there is something going on, something special at this university. It is hard to define, but is positive and different.

We have people with depression. Same as any place else. The difference is people really care about each other. Professors care about students in class. Yesterday, I went down for lunch at the cafeteria.

Usually, I choose to sit with a group of students who I have never met before, to sit down and say, “Can I eat here?” Of course, they wince a little bit sometimes. I sit next to a young woman – first year. I ask, “How has it been? Has it lived up to its billing – life at Trinity?”

She said, “Yea…” Just enough pause to know this wasn’t a ringing endorsement. Then we had a half-hour discussion about depression. I can share some of the things that I go through. She began to smile because she was relating to someone who knew what depression was about.

That was an interaction in community. The opportunity to go face to face. I do not think that would happen, where the president of the university would sit down and have a conversation about her depression and how she is trying to go through that.

I think more of those interactions are needed to bring back hope. My hope is that she would get some sense of hope or encouragement out of that time. We need more of that. That would, maybe, be something that would generate civility and open honesty and inquiry rather than the forced political correctness, where we can’t wander outside for fear of offending someone.

I am probably as sensitive as the next person, but I think we have done that one a bit.

7. Jacobsen: Down that rabbit hole, the issue is not hurt feelings necessarily. It is a concern. Few people want to deliberately hurt another person’s feelings, whether faith, non-faith, ethnic background, political background, and so on.

The issue is, someone says an opinion, whether backed by fact or not, and people may disagree with that personally to the point that it feels like an affront, a personal offense.

Kuhn: Yes.

Jacobsen: They react in such a way that they condone silencing that person, threatening with physical violence on social media and other places. There is a task force on cyberbullying. I write for it.

The problems come from the reactions, not necessarily from the opinions. The opinions may be abhorrent; or they may be of the highest good.

Kuhn: Yes.

Jacobsen: However, the issues come from an individual’s sense of entitlement to silence another person that they disagree with or feel that they hurt their feelings simply by assuming the intention of the other person.

Kuhn: Yes.

Jacobsen: “I feel bad. Therefore, you intended to make me feel bad.”

Kuhn: Imputed motive.

Jacobsen: Imputed motive. Without the proper conduct in a civil society, discourse, especially in an academic environment where you would expect better behaviour from students or at least have the values conveyed to students that “this is the way it is done,” you ask the person, “Is this what you meant? What do you mean by that?”

Then you have a conversation. At that point, the civility opens up. That seems less and less the standard. I see some making larger claims about the campus around this. If you look at an organization like Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE), which is an organization by Greg Lukianoff, Sally Satel from the American Enterprise Institute recommended it to me.

I looked at the statistics for disinvitation from 2000-2014. In 2014, there were something like 40 disinvitations in 2014 out of all the speeches in the United States or North America out of the 2,600-2,700 universities.

Based on the statistics, not thorough enough but preliminary if independently, it seems minor but growing. The fact that it is growing can influence other aspects of academic life. It may be indicative of what is happening on the periphery of those statistics.

It is a concern to me, but more of a minor one than a major one. It makes the news sometimes, but it is an individual story. It is like saying, “The crime capital of Canada.” Proper response or retort, “Yes, in Canada.”

We maybe have 500-700 murders per year in all ways. California has as many murders as Canada in all ways in just stabbings. It is a difference in the way we relate to each other. I think it is an relevant issue on campus because it tends to be a moderately growing phenomena of concern of how people are relating to one another.

Maybe, it is because people aren’t relating each other enough. They are getting the isolation with their iPhones, Androids, and computers. It may be leading to a preference for no face-to-face interaction – texting, email, Skype, and so on, where these kinds of interactions lead to less social skills, less preference for people up front.

It leaves people blind, socially blind, to how a person winces, smiles, gives a certain inflection. If they are saying something polite, but if their body is saying, “I am going to hurt you. You smile and then go away.

It is skills like those that decline. It may, in part, explain some of the issues on campus around civility, around respect for another person’s right to say what they want whether it is true or not. Also, your right, as per the George Carlin sketch about the preacher John Wildman, to turn the dial to another station or turn the radio off.

You can not attend that lecture. You can walk away rather than threatening public violence, or disinviting, or coming on campus with banners and screaming them down – as happened to some public intellectuals on Canadian campuses, more prominently in the United States.

It is one of those things that concern me to a minor to an increasingly moderate degree, which I think relate to many of the things that you have been saying. With that as a theme, a thematic element, what are some of your hopes for Trinity Western for 2020?

Kuhn: Perhaps, an overarching hope would be that society generally would be able to accommodate a somewhat disparate now, historically not so, worldview. That is being given fairly short shrift on a number of fronts.

I hope that at some point the pendulum will quit swinging or swing back to some place of balance to the place of a Christian organization, such as this, in a pluralistic society. That pluralism becomes more of a real principle rather than – I will call it – peculiar pluralism.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Kuhn: That suggests some things are okay in pluralism and some things are not, which becomes hegemony. Anyway, I really hope for that. I think the lack of civility in some quarters in relation to that topic, whether talking about the proposed law school and the litigation, or other areas.

That would really be, maybe, a fond and somewhat faint hope. For Trinity, it would be that it would gain a greater comfort in its own skin perhaps. I think we are in a transitional era. We might have been one time accused of being a green house.

It is not possible, partly because of these machines (iPhones etc.), but it is not possible to make a bubble for Trinity even if you wanted to – which I do not think they want to. We do not need to embrace those things because we would question them.

We do not need to question. We need to engage. The uniqueness of the community here would be understood, perhaps.

Also, for the students themselves, that there would be a renewed understanding of sacrifice, for commitment in relationships. The need for community to have a place that means you may need to forego your individual rights. That is the nature of community.

We all forego something to be a part of a community. If we do not, then we lose that sense of community. However, we could then become pretty isolated and create a dreaded-dour community.

Those would be some of my hopes. It is hard work being unique in a sense. We could say, “We are unique as a manifestation of that,” but there are tremendous pressures to dissolve into the pressure that is society and wants conformity and homogeneity.

Even though they talk about it as diversity. It is this tremendously ironic characterization of Christianity in the context of equality, diversity, and inclusiveness. The message of Christ is for an equality that is far above and beyond.

An equality based on being equal. There is no such thing as equality at a human level. You and I are different. You have greater intellectual power and possession than I do. I may have something that you do not. Does that make us equal?

We are unique. For that purpose, equality is something far above than that diversity. Because we are different. How do we manifest diversity? Do we legislate diversity? Do we legislate inclusivity?

I believe that by going at it in some of the ways that we are going,  we will do more harm than good. That we will actually place burdens on people that we try to legislate the heart, which is, again, coming to community.

You cannot legislate the heart. So, we legislate behaviour and create the potential that people revert to violent means. All kinds of things, which are unsavoury for consideration at a societal level.

It leads me to a place of hope because I think there is still a hunger and a desire to have those relationships. I tell people that 40/45 years ago, I went here. Some of my good friends from then – many of my good friends – are still my friends today.

How many people can say that? That their first couple years of college. They maintained their relationship. That would be another hope, I guess. That those relationships people have engaged in and experienced here will be true and born out as having value over the long haul.

We are not very good anymore at delaying gratification. We want immediate results for everything.

Jacobsen: We suck at the Marshmallow Test.

Kuhn: [Laughing] Yes, yes.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] President, Trinity Western University.

[2] Individual Publication Date: July 1, 2018 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bob-kuhn-two; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] J.D. (1979), University of British Columbia (J.D. 1979); B.A. (1976), University of British Columbia; A.A. (1972), Trinity Western College.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Interview with Bob Kuhn, J.D. (Part Two) [Online].July 2018; 17(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bob-kuhn-two.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, July 1). Interview with Bob Kuhn, J.D. (Part Two). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bob-kuhn-two.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Interview with Bob Kuhn, J.D. (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A, July. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bob-kuhn-two>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “Interview with Bob Kuhn, J.D. (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bob-kuhn-two.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Interview with Bob Kuhn, J.D. (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A (July 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bob-kuhn-two.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Interview with Bob Kuhn, J.D. (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bob-kuhn-two>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Interview with Bob Kuhn, J.D. (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bob-kuhn-two.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Interview with Bob Kuhn, J.D. (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 17.A (2018):July. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bob-kuhn-two>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Interview with Bob Kuhn, J.D. (Part Two) [Internet]. (2018, July; 17(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bob-kuhn-two.

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© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-07-01

In Conversation with Professor Scott O. Lilienfeld

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 17.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Thirteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: July 1, 2018

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 6,328

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Professor Scott O. Lilienfeld is a Professor of Psychology at the Emory University. He discusses: family background; pivotal or influential moments of personal background; common misconceptions about memory; Sir Karl Popper and Freud; tasks and responsibilities as a professor at Emory University; tips for the conveyance of a clear message in the communication of science; pseudoscience and core science with students; impediments to understanding and ignorance; early teaching of logic, critical thinking, and science; privileges of religions in society and the Baloney Detection Kit; Carl Sagan and good science communication; psychology as a science; simulation and prediction; and recommended resources or books on skepticism, critical thinking, and psychological science.

Keywords: clinical psychology, Emory University, psychology, Scott O. Lilienfeld.

In Conversation with Professor Scott O. Lilienfeld: Professor, Psychology, Emory University[1],[2],[3],[4]

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Where does your family background reside in terms of geography, culture, and language to lay the groundwork?

Scott Lilienfeld: I was born and raised in New York City, born in Manhattan. I grew up in Queens and actually worked for many years a couple of blocks away from a man you may have heard of, he’s been in the news a bit lately. His name is Donald J. Trump.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Scott Lilienfeld: I was born and raised in New York City, born in Manhattan. I grew up in Queens and actually worked for many years a couple of blocks away from a man you may have heard of, he’s been in the news a bit lately. His name is Donald J. Trump.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Lilienfeld: In Jamaican Estates, I grew up there. I spent pretty much my whole childhood in New York City, especially Queens. My parents were second generation so my father’s family was from Austria-Hungary near Germany. My mother’s family was from all over the place, more from Poland, Russia, and those kinds of areas.

And language, I grew up to speak English, that’s about it. I was not raised in a particularly religious home though both my parents were Jewish. I’m not a particularly religious person at all right now although my parents did send me to Sunday school and although I would not say I had a religious upbringing, I valued religious culture and they brought me up culturally Jewish.

So that’s sort of my background. I first ventured out of New York City in college. I want to college in upstate New York in Cornell University. I was in New York pretty much my whole life until I was 21 and then I moved to Minneapolis for graduate school at the University of Minnesota.

For some reason, I’ve always been drawn to cold weather. It’s nice being down here in Atlanta where it’s a little bit warmer. A high of 79 today, so I’m not complaining.

2. Jacobsen: I want to take one step back to the middle of your personal narrative in terms of childhood and adolescence because you skipped to college and graduate school. What are some pivotal moments or influential moments that you can recall from those times that impacted you in terms of your life trajectory?

Lilienfeld: I don’t think I had any pivotal moments. Or if I did, I don’t frame them as pivotal moments. I think for me a lot of the things that really shaped my interests were more or less happenstance and experiences. What seemed to help was my father facilitating my passions rather than anything particular happening to me.

I was a tremendous science lover, science nerd growing up and my parents really allowed that to bloom. My father took me many times to the American Museum of Natural History in Manhattan. I think that really shaped my love of science as it did many other people including one of my intellectual heroes Carl Sagan also fell in love with science there.

So, that really was quite formative and I think they allowed me to do a lot of reading. They bought me science books. They allowed me to go to a science camp when I was growing up. So, those things I think really shaped my passion.

And when I was about 13 or 14, I came upon a book at a fair and it was an old time life book called The Mind. I didn’t know anything about psychology until I opened that book and then I was hooked. I read that book and just was utterly fascinated by what I later came to realize was the field of psychology.

The more I read, the more fascinated I became. That book, although in retrospect was not as scientific as it could have been, it really opened up a whole window to me in terms of science and dreams and the science of memory and the science of mental illness and those things that I’m still fascinated by today.

3. Jacobsen: Were there any common misconceptions that you held yourself at the time that that text or others obliterated or over time whittled down?

Lilienfeld: That’s a good question. Yes, I probably had a lot of misconceptions back then. I was very drawn to psychology and that book probably fuelled it. That book was probably a product of the times. I was very drawn to Freudian thinking initially, psychoanalytic thinking.

I suspect the book in some ways perpetuated some serious misunderstandings. I recall, hopefully this isn’t a false memory on my part, but I recall that book being very naive on the nature of the unconscious. Very naive about hypnosis for example.

Implying that people who are hypnotized can be made to do things against their will or that hypnosis is like a trance state and so on. I think the book also perpetuated a lot of other ideas of the time. The idea that we can somehow retrieve or recover long lost memories of the past which we have not been able to access for a long time.

Those are misconceptions that I’ve held for quite some time I think. I also believed, because I also got very much in Freudian thinking in my high school years, I believed that early childhood experiences have an enormous impact on later adult development, so much so that they are often irreversible. I think it’s also a very misguided idea that has gotten us into trouble as a field but it’s also one that I held for quite some time.

4. Jacobsen: Sir Carl Popper made the criterion of falsifiability explicit in science. Freud has been criticized for not meeting that criteria. Does that criteria seem valid to you?

Lilienfeld: It’s partly valid. Adolf Grünbaum of the University of Pittsburgh wrote a very good book about that. There are aspects of Freudian theory that are indeed very difficult to falsify. They are often so vague they are metaphysical. I think Freud’s idea of the mind consisting of 3 psychic prophecies, ID, ego and superegos is more of a metaphor than anything else.

It’s probably not wrong but it’s probably so vague that it can’t be tested or falsified. There’s some Freudian claims like that that are probably almost unfalsifiable because they are more metaphorical. There are however other Freudian claims that in principle could be falsified. I’m not sure they’re easy to falsify.

There are other parts of Freudian theory that are falsifiable on principle. The claim for example that a lot of neurosis stems from early childhood sexual abuse, which is a view that Freud initially held, is in principle falsifiable.

Grünbaum makes the point astutely that Freud, in fact, changed his mind on that issue. In part because of evidence. It’s not very compelling evidence by today’s standards but he began to realize that the rates of abuse that would needed to induce neuroses seemed implausibly high and a lot of the parents who seemed to be accused of that did not seem like the kinds of people who would have done this.

So his views did in fact change. The claim that early experiences like early toilet training practices can lead to differences in later personalities is also a falsifiable claim in principle. I think Popper had it partly correct but not entirely.

5. Jacobsen: I want to move back to the narrative portion of the interview. So post-graduate school, you are now the Samuel Candler Dobbs professor at the department of psychology at Emery University. So what tasks and responsibilities come with this station?

Lilienfeld: So, a lot. One thing I love about academic life is it’s amazingly diverse. Sometimes that means I don’t get enough sleep but that’s okay. I can live with that. I do lots of things. I teach both undergraduate and graduate courses.

I teach a graduate course in psychological assessment along with a seminar in psychiatric diagnostic interviewing. At the undergraduate level I teach introductory psychology. I’m fortunate enough to sometimes teach a seminar called science and pseudoscience in psychology where I get to talk about controversial claims.

That’s kind of fun. I do a lot of teaching and I do a great deal of research. So most of our research focuses on personality disorders, particularly psychopathic and to some extent narcissistic personality disorders. So we do work into what the potential causes of those conditions are and how to better detect them.

Or what the interpersonal manifestations are. I run a lab. I have 3 terrific grad students along with a bunch of a number of undergraduates at our lab who help us with those things. Then I do a lot of editorial work. That’s an increasing part of my life. That’s probably 30% of my life.

I edit a journal. I’m editor in chief of a journal called Clinical Psychological Science. I’ve been editor-in-chief since July 1st of 2016. It’s a major journal that focuses on how basic science can inform our understanding of mental illness. So, I do that. It’s a lot of work but it’s also very intellectually challenging and fulfilling.

I’m also on a number of editorial boards and those kinds of things. I do that. Then I do a lot of service. I’m the outgoing president of a group called Society the Science of Clinical Psychology, I’m on the board of that group.

It’s a group that tries to better incorporate evidence-based practice, science-based practice into mental health treatment. And that is our big mission to try to make our field more scientific because we don’t think it’s as scientific as it could be. We don’t think people with mental illness are getting the help they need and deserve.

So I do a lot of that as well. I also do the typical things that faculty members do. I do services for the university. I sit on various committees and committees in my department and that kind of thing. And I often do some writing for the general public and public outreach which I really enjoy.

I’m also a textbook author and co-author of an introductory psychology textbook. I do writing for popular magazines sometimes and occasionally give talks for the general public and talk to the media and things like that. I’m often overwhelmed and often rarely bored.

Jacobsen: And under slept.

Lilienfeld: Yes, exactly.

6. Jacobsen: You teach undergraduate psychology, you teach science and pseudoscience, you write an introductory psychology textbook. In addition, you communicate to the public in various ways including writing articles.

With respect to the communication of science and in particular psychological science, what are some tips for those that want to convey clear messages about the relatively complex subject matter in psychological science to the public or to their students?

Lilienfeld: That’s a great question. I wish I had better answers to them. I think I’m still learning and getting better all the time. I wish I had some great tips, I don’t. Other than to say that you really have to put yourself in the minds of a smart person who does not know psychology.

Teaching introductory psychology has helped me a lot in that regard because we have a lot of bright students but they come in not knowing much psychology so in some ways it’s in some ways a theory of mind task. You have to put yourself in the mind of another person. For me, the key thing is a matter of attitude.

Your goal should not be to impress anyone. Your goal should not be to seem smart or learned. Your goal should be to reach people. And to do that, you have to avoid lingo. Sometimes you have to introduce some technical terms but you want to keep those to a minimum. You have to somehow, and this is the part that I find the hardest, to simply without oversimplifying.

That’s the hardest part because we often do deal with complicated issues. What I try to do is if I’m simplifying things, I will simply say, “I am simplifying something here. There is some more complexity but I’m going to leave it at that.” But I do feel compelled to let people know that I am simplifying things.

Because I don’t want to imply that what I’m saying is necessarily the full picture. I think sometimes in academia we’re used to talking a lot and making lots of points with lots of nuance and a lot of people are busy and have a limited attention span.

Often you have to make 2 or 3 points at most and get out. If you try to make too many points, people’s eyes will glaze over. So that’s another thing I’ve learned. You need to really think about what are the key bottom line messages to bring home here? I have 15 seconds, 30 seconds, what is the elevator pitch here? So those are some of the basic things I’ve learned over the years.

7. Jacobsen: In the core science and pseudoscience, you deal with students at Emery University who are more intelligent than average but do not know the psychological science in detail or might have common misconceptions or rare misconceptions about psychological science.

Lilienfeld: I think they’re both what I would call “meta conceptions and misconceptions.” By meta misconceptions I mean misconceptions about how psychological science works to begin with. There’s a lot of those and there’s a range. I think a lot of them differ depending on the student’s background.

So, for example, students coming from the so-called hard sciences like chemistry often come in thinking, “Oh psychology isn’t scientific, it can’t be a science,” because it’s dealing with these fuzzy, murky topics. I see that as a colossal misconception because psychology, although it is fuzzy and doesn’t allow the same degree of precision in terms of predictions, relies on scientific methodology in much the same way physics and chemistry does.

It uses tools to reduce confirmation bias and other kinds of errors in thinking. So that’s a common misconception you get from students in the hard sciences. You also get it from students in engineering and mathematics and so on. I see that in my undergraduate teachings.

Sometimes you have the opposite problem. Students who are in psychology often make the mistake of taking psychological findings as gospel and I think we’ve learned in the last 5 years or so that not all of our findings are replicating and holding up in the way we like.

I think another common misconception is that one can take one isolated finding from a study and then draw very strong conclusions from it and that’s another misconception that is perpetuated by the media. The media loves to get a sexy, hot psychological finding that is surprising and they promote it so people start thinking it’s a true finding.

I think we have learned, myself included, that we have to be more humble and modest about our claims. Those are some common misconceptions I’ve seen about psychological science in general among students. And then students hold lots of specific misconception about specific topics that of course focuses a lot on that.

A lot of students think we use only 10% of our brains. Or that full moons are related to behaviors or that vaccines cause autism, although that’s getting less common I think. Or that the most important determinate of our happiness is what happens to us rather than the way we think about what happens to us. There are a lot of specific misconceptions about specific topics that are also important to address.

8. Jacobsen: What is the greater impediment to a proper understanding of science: the ignorance of a particular fundamental theory, evolutionary theory, continental drift, plate tectonics and so on? Or a wrong but firmly held theory about the universe? For instance, creationism instead of being ignorant about evolution.

Lilienfeld: I would say probably more the latter. But to me the biggest impediment is the belief, the deeply held belief, that common sense is the best way of understanding the world. That’s the biggest impediment. We have a president-elect who frequently uses the term common sense.

Common sense can be a good thing and I’m not opposed to common sense but the problem is that one person’s common sense is another person’s uncommon sense. What may seem commonsensical to me may not seem commonsensical to you.

It seems commonsensical to most people that the Earth is standing still and that the Sun is moving around the Earth when in fact the opposite is true. Of course we’re all moving through space at break-neck speed. But that doesn’t seem like a common sense belief. It seems common sense the earth is flat but we know that the ancients didn’t believe that or some did.

Of course, we know some people still believe that. It seems commonsensical to many people that memory works like a video camera or tape recorder even though it doesn’t. It seems that way. To me, that’s the biggest impediment. The belief that we can rely solely on our intuitions and common sense perceptions to understand the world.

I think for me many of the more specific misconceptions that you mentioned, take creationism, stem from that. It seems wildly un-commonsensical when we look around the natural world. We look at beautiful wild life and trees and so on that these things could have been the product of random mutation and selection of certain mutations. To me, that seems unnatural and not commonsensical. l.

Part of the reason why natural selection has been difficult for people to accept, some of the opposition is religious in nature but some of it also does seem counter-intuitive. I think one thing I worry about is we seem to live in a culture in America in which we increasingly value intuitive thinking above and beyond scientific thinking.

I think we live in a culture where our level impressions are often valued as a way of understanding the world. Again, level impression can be helpful for in some cases. They can be helpful for engaging with people and whether people are good or bad people. Although even there it’s hardly perfect.

But when it comes to understanding nature, I think that level of impression is often quite fallible, sometimes wildly wrong. To me, that’s the greatest obstacle.

9. Jacobsen: Some remedies exist such as teaching logic, critical thinking, scientific methodology and the fundamental theories that come along with it. How early can we teach those effectively?

Lilienfeld: That’s a great question. I don’t know. That’s my answer, I just don’t know. I don’t think we have any data on this but I wrote a piece on this recently for Skeptical Inquirer that is very scandalous and we just don’t know how early you can start. We don’t know.

I think some people would say, following Piaget’s work, that you might have to wait until people are what Piaget calls, “formal operational thinking.” Formal operational thinking typically beginning at age 7 for most kids where you’re capable of abstract thinking. That’s possible but I don’t know.

I think we have to push it. We have to see how early we can start. I think kids are part natural scientists. Kids really want to understand the world, they’re naturally curious. They are intellectually curious. They have a sense of wonder. I think kids are good at some of it but not others.

I think kids are really good at seeing patterns, detecting patterns in the world. I think sometimes they’re better at that than we adults are. I think the problems come in that they’re not as good which patterns are genuine and which ones are not and that’s a lot of what science is about. Trying to sort through and see what relationships are genuine and which ones are not.

10. Jacobsen: You mentioned Trump earlier, president-elect Trump. He also has a vice president-elect, Mike Pence. I did watch the YouTube video of him making a speech. I guess this was in Congress?

Lilienfeld: I think I saw that before too, yes.

Jacobsen: It was an articulate speech but it was ill-informed.

Lilienfeld: Correct. I think he’s really intelligent, I have no doubt he’s an intelligent man, Pence, I don’t doubt that.

Jacobsen: So in a way, his example seems to me to represent some privileges of religion in societies, in all of them which I can tell although that’s a grand claim. For instance, I believe this is not an original point to me, I believe it’s a point Richard Dawkins made some time ago where if you have a child that is labeled a Muslim, Christian or Jewish child, it is labeled as such because the parents have that belief.

Lilienfeld: Yes, I think Dawkins made that point yes.

Jacobsen: Rather than the statement that it’s a child of Christian, Jewish or Muslim parents, which is a more accurate statement.

Lilienfeld: I don’t disagree with him on that point.

Jacobsen: In a way, the privileges of religion in society seem to come out of that. Where they have more time to instantiate their beliefs in children’s minds than formal scientific, logical, statistical education does.

You know this better than me, of course being an educator, you’re dealing with a highly intelligent population coming into Emery University that come into the classroom with preconceptions that generally tend to be supernaturalistic. I think this is well supported by survey data in the United States.

Michael Shermer has documented some of this. As well he has reiterated a proposition from Doctor Carl Sagan, your hero, about the Baloney Detection kit I think it I was, I believe it was a euphemism.

Lilienfeld: Yes, a different word beginning with B that some people might use (laughter).

Jacobsen: That’s right. That seems to me a longer-term impediment and a more systemic one just based in historic inertia.

Lilienfeld: Yes, I think you raise a good point, I think that’s right. I think people are immersed in this way of thinking for in some cases quite early on, from their childhood. And depending on the way they were raised, they may be inculcated from this view by their parents, by their teachers, by their priests and so on.

People, they find that very difficult to break because they have problems. This is what I’ve been hearing for 17, 18 years of my life and, of course, it’s true. I think that’s right. That plays into it as well. I think that the other point to make about someone like Mike Pence is that there is a big difference between intelligence and scientific thinking.

I think one can be a very intelligent person but not know how to think scientifically. I don’t think I knew how to think scientifically when I was a teenager. I think if anything in terms of raw intelligence, I’m probably dumber than I was when I was as a teenager. I think I was able to pick up stuff faster.

My working memory is probably slower than it was back then. But I like to think I’m a little wiser than I was back then because I have scientific thinking skills and I think one can be a very smart person but fall prey to a lot of serious errors in thinking. Evolution and creationism pose particular challenges.

The religious stuff, that’s layered on top of it there. I think there are understandably people who feel threatened by natural selection because they feel. rightly or wrongly, that it threatens some of their cherished religious beliefs.

I think that’s something that those of us who are skeptics communicating with a public, I think we have to be very sensitive to that and realize that we are potentially threatening people’s worldviews. That’s one area that I don’t want to get off topic too much but one area I have disagreements with Dawkins is because I think there is increasing evidence from psychology for what is sometimes called a “worldview backfire effect.”

If you threaten people’s worldviews too strongly, it might not be effective but it might inadvertently produce a boomerang effect where you actually strengthen people’s beliefs inadvertently.

11. Jacobsen: What made Carl Sagan a good science communicator?

Lilienfeld: So many things. I got to meet him a couple of years before he died. One of the thrills of my life was getting to meet him. I got to spend an hour with him with a couple of people. What made him such an effective communicator was a couple things.

First was his remarkable childlike passion for science. I think he just loves science and it oozed out of every pore of his body. It was his childlike enthusiasm. It was utterly contagious. He had such a sense of awe that he was able to communicate more effectively than anyone I have ever seen.

I also think that he was effective because he respected people and he communicated respect. Even when he was disagreeing with people, he always did it, or I think there were a couple exceptions in his career he may have regretted, but as he got older he got better and better at communicating science in a very respectful way even to people who had very different points of view.

I think he understood you have to meet people at their level. And not make people feel stupid. And I think he never had the sense, at least I did and I followed him quite a bit, I saw him speak a number of times in person and on Youtube, and I never had the sense that he was trying to impress you or make himself look smart.

He just wanted to inculcate in you a love of science and a love of nature. And of course, he is also just a damn good speaker and writer. He had a way of putting things poetically so beautiful. I think he also was really good at changing people’s perspectives. I think a great science educator can do that.

Something I try to do as a science educator, I don’t think I’m nearly as successful as Sagan is but maybe I’ll get better at it one day, is someone who can just shift your worldview in a way and make you think about something in a very different way.

So yes I have a little poster on my wall of us being a little pale blue dot and it’s something very simple but just looking at this little dot in space that was taken from millions of miles away and seeing the Earth there, it just puts things at a particular perspective and makes you realize just how fragile, how delicate we are.

And how tiny we really are in the grand scheme of things. Which in some ways some people might find depressing but I actually I find it uplifting? It makes me feel part of the bigger picture, even though I’m not a religious person, it does give me a spiritual feeling in some ways because it makes me feel part of, it makes me understand that we’re all just one tiny little speck in a gigantic cosmos. And also makes me realize we can’t take ourselves for granted which I think we do too often.

12. Jacobsen: What makes psychology science?

Lilienfeld: It’s not all science. It can be a science. I think it depends on how you approach it. I think that’s probably true for anything. I think you can approach biology unscientifically. There are some biologists who are creationists, right.

I think it can be scientific and I think it often is because for me what makes something science is approached. So for me, science is a systematic set of tools that we have developed to minimize confirmation bias and other kinds of biases.

Psychologists, arguably more than some in the hard sciences, understand that point although I think we’re also understanding it better than we used to. So we use research designs, randomized control trials for example in my own field of clinical psychology we used blinding, we use sophisticated data analytical methods.

All of these are partial although admittedly imperfect tools to control for human error and bias and hopefully get us a bit closer to the truth. And the proof is in the pudding I would say. There are some people who will say well nothing in psychology is dependable and replicable and that is of course not true.

Lots of psychological findings can be replicated just fine. Variable ratio schedule like those you see in Las Vegas casinos or Atlantic City casinos. We know those schedules tend to produce the highest rate of responding and findings can be replicable anywhere from humans all the way down to rodents and probably broader than that, pigeons.

There are hundreds of psychological findings that are quite replicable. There are others that once you start getting to things that involve interactions among people, that’s where things get more complicated because you’re dealing with, in physics, they have enough of a problem with the 2 body problem.

In psychology, it’s much more complicated than that. You have people interacting with other people who in turn have lots of different expectations, who in turn influence each other on a moment by moment basis. Of course, human behavior gets much less predictable once you’re dealing with multiple bodies.

Who in turn think about what other bodies are thinking about them who in turn think about what they’re thinking about and so on. So sometimes it amazes me that we can predict anything given how remarkably complex the call systems we work with are.

13. Jacobsen: One question I haven’t thought of before but I think it’s a good one. I mentioned Sir Carl Popper and falsifiability before you mentioned the text as well.

With increasing sophistication in the scanning of the brain and understanding of the central nervous system, is it possible that we can in the future add an additional criterion for psychological science with simulated ability? Where the ability to simulate parts of the brain or aspects of the brain as a whole in the future with (inaudible) power, we could form predictive models and then test those models based on the simulations?

Lilienfeld: Yes I think we will. I think that’s right. I’m not a neuroscientist but I think that’s a great question. I would be very surprised if we could not get close to that. How far we can get, I don’t know but I think that’s right.

Part of the scientific criteria for it to be considered scientific is your ability to get control over a phenomenon. To understand it well enough that you can reproduce it. Simulated ability is probably one way of thinking about that.

If we truly understand the way the mind works, we should be able to come up with the model system that shows some of the same behaviors. How far we can get in that regard, I don’t know. I’m more optimistic than some but I don’t know. We have a long way to go in that regard so we’re going to have to be very patient.

It’s completely safe but the brain is far away the most complex organ in the universe. One thing that impresses me is even with, and again I’m not an expert in artificial intelligence but I read people who are experts, and one thing that really amazes me about the human brain is how that even though they aren’t typically able to play chess as well as the best computers, and they can’t do calculations nearly as well but other remarkably simple things that we take for granted that no computers come close to.

Our ability to infer meaning from sentences is my understanding is that something that computers are quite bad at. You could free them up to look for certain words or things like that but they’re some very simple sentences that a 6 or 7-year-old could understand that even the most advanced computer doesn’t get.

So yes, I think that’s a great question. I wish I had a better answer to it but my answer is I think yes. That’s probably the best I can say.

I think Popper, by the way, his criterion of falsifiability has more or less been falsified. I think it’s a useful criterion in part for distinguishing science from pseudoscience, but I don’t think there’s any single criterion that distinguishes science from pseudoscience.

Jacobsen: A set of principles that form a scaffold for modern science.

Lilienfeld: Yes, I figure it as a family resemblance concept. I don’t think there’s a simple dividing line. Many of the claims of astrology are falsifiable but I wouldn’t call astrology, scientific because it’s falsifiable. Phrenology is falsifiable.

You can falsify it. But I would not call it a science just because you could falsify the claims of phrenology. I think Popper had it partly right. What I do like about Popper, even though I don’t accept his claims that falsifiability is a demarcation criterion, but what I do like is prescriptive implications.

The idea that we should be trying as hard as we can to prove our theories wrong. It’s a good heuristic for scientists to follow in everyday life. I try to follow it but don’t always succeed. It’s a reminder that we should always be working hard to disprove our theories.

That’s probably the best ways of thinking about science. In Richard Feynman’s terms, trying to bend over backward to prove ourselves wrong. There I have a lot of affinity for Popper’s views.

14. Jacobsen: Do you have any recommended resources or books for those with an interest in skepticism, critical thinking, and psychological science?

Lilienfeld: Yes, lots. I don’t know where to start, there are so many good ones. I think you mentioned a lot of the great names. I think Sagan is terrific, Demon-Haunted World is a great book. Michael Shermer, many of his books are excellent. I’m a big fan of Keith Stanovich in Toronto. I think his writings are great.

Tom Gilovich wrote a wonderful book, How I know It Isn’t So, it’s old now, 1991, but it’s still worth reading. And I think even just digging up a lot of copy of Skeptical Inquirer, Skeptic Magazine in almost any issue you can find good ways to think scientifically from any of those.

I think a lot of those would excellent sources. It has really improved a lot. I remember when I first got into the field, there was only a handful of these books and now there’s almost too many of them. It’s a good problem to have.

There’s a lot of wonderful books out there. I thought when I first started maybe I’ll write a book like this but now I don’t need too because I’m not sure I could do any better than any of the books that are out there now.

15. Jacobsen: Thank you very much for your time.

Lilienfeld: I really enjoyed it. We’ll be in touch. Thanks again. Great questions and I really appreciate you taking the time.

Jacobsen: I appreciate your time as well.

Lilienfeld: Thanks again, I really enjoyed it.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Professor, Psychology, Emory University.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 22, 2018 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/scott-lilienfeld; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] B.A. (1982), Psychology, Cornell University; Ph.D. (1990), Clinical Psychology, University of Minnesota; Clinical Internship (1986-1987), Western Psychiatric Institute & Clinic in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. In Conversation with Professor Scott O. Lilienfeld [Online].July 2018; 17(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/scott-lilienfeld.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, July 1). In Conversation with Professor Scott O. Lilienfeld. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/scott-lilienfeld.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. In Conversation with Professor Scott O. Lilienfeld. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A, July. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/scott-lilienfeld>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “In Conversation with Professor Scott O. Lilienfeld.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/scott-lilienfeld.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “In Conversation with Professor Scott O. Lilienfeld.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A (July 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/scott-lilienfeld.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘In Conversation with Professor Scott O. Lilienfeld‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/scott-lilienfeld>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘In Conversation with Professor Scott O. Lilienfeld‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/scott-lilienfeld.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “In Conversation with Professor Scott O. Lilienfeld.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 17.A (2018):July. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/scott-lilienfeld>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. In Conversation with Professor Scott O. Lilienfeld [Internet]. (2018, July; 17(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/scott-lilienfeld.

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2 Comments
2018-07-01

Interview with Jon O’Brien

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 17.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Thirteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: July 1, 2018

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,278

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Jon O’Brien is the President, Catholics for Choice. He discusses: Roman Catholic Church faith community issues regarding pro-choice and pro-life; and the contrast between the hierarchy of the Catholic Church and the lay public with consideration of Aquinas as well as Augustine where conscience is the final arbiter.

Keywords: Catholics for Choice, conscience, Jon O’Brien, pro-choice, pro-life, Roman Catholic Church.

Interview with Jon O’Brien: President, Catholics for Choice[1],[2],[3]

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, we have talked about the Catholic faith and reproductive health as well as the situation in America regarding both of those. I wanted to touch base again talking about some of the more up to date issues around prochoice as well as around the discussion within the faith because you would know the situation better than I would.

So, what are some of the more pressing issues within the faith community – within the Roman Catholic Church now regarding prochoice and prolife?

Jon O’Brien: One of the biggest problems is the disconnect between the Catholic hierarchy and the Catholic people on issues of contraception and abortion. For example, in the failing days of the Pinochet regime of Chile, the Catholic hierarchy there pressured General Pinochet to introduce a restrictive anti-abortion law. In 2017, Chile, a country that is still predominantly Catholic, changed this Pinochet-era law on abortion. We see that sort of law all over the world, especially in Latin America.

We also see that as people have a deeper understanding of human rights, civil rights, women’s rights and the idea of conscience and autonomy, there is a change in the way Catholics can be stereotypically viewed as “Oh, he’s Catholic. he must be anti-abortion.”

The reality is that whether it is Poland, Portugal, the Philippines, Peru or Pittsburgh in the United States, what we find most is Catholics living according to values that contradict in some areas what the hierarchy has been teaching.

So, in Chile, the prime minister Michelle Bachelet introduced a law that would reform the total ban on abortion. The country now allows abortions in limited cases: for pregnancies resulting from violence against women as with the case of rape, for fetal abnormalities and to save the health of the woman.

And what is significant is we’re seeing Catholic voters and Catholic politicians no longer feeling intimidated by the institutional Church and standing up and saying as Catholics, “We don’t see a contradiction between allowing people to follow their conscience,” which is a Catholic thing.

Thomas Aquinas and Saint Augustine taught us that conscience is the final arbitrator in moral decision making. So, you’re seeing this teaching asserted by Catholics regarding personal freedom. You’re also seeing it around LGBT issues as well.

Here in the United States, Catholics supported gay marriage. Sometimes at a higher level than others. Although the Knights of Columbus and the Catholic hierarchy ran really highly funded campaigns against the idea of marriage equality, they lost.

In the Republic of Ireland, the country of my birth, we’ve seen a referendum on the same subject. In other words, the people themselves voted in favor of marriage equality, despite the views of the Catholic hierarchy.

I don’t think this change means that Catholics today are less Catholic. It means the Catholic people are standing up and living social justice as they see it. The difficulty for those of a more conservative view is that they don’t see the Church authority as vested in the hierarchy being obeyed.

Catholics are making decisions for themselves. They say, “Your baptism makes you Catholic.” Being Catholic is not a litmus test as to whether you adhere to the letter of law in every teaching. Nor does it mean you get up in the morning and do whatever you want to do. It means you properly form a conscience and follow it. You must examine your conscience and that is a serious process of looking at what the church leaders have said, looking at what the Church has written and looking at your impact on others.

Being careful and present with what you’re doing is the reason 99 percent of Catholic women who are sexually active in the United States use a method of birth control that bishops don’t like.

You find that the world over. You go to a clinic in Kenya or you go to a clinic in Uganda, and you will find Catholic women doing the same thing that they would do in Canada or the United States. They are doing the best for themselves and for their families and for their communities.

2. Jacobsen: When it comes to the hierarchy of the Catholic church, in contrast to much of the lay public and as you noted with Aquinas as well as Augustine, as far as conscience being the final arbiter, do you feel the Catholic laity are living closer to the fundamental values of the Catholic faith?

O’Brien: It sounds unbelievable, but we are the true traditionalists. I have seen many good things within traditional Catholicism. I appreciate those who are singing nuns or whatever, but I do value the traditional aspects of Catholicism.

However, when it comes to stuff like this, “Are you a cafeteria Catholic?” they say as an insult. Choose responsibly to use birth control, use a condom to prevent HIV; or if a marriage breaks down and you find yourself in a divorced situation, the reality is that Catholics who live in the real world are applying a lot of social justice principles around the decision making they have.

It’s traditional to understand, believe and follow that conscience is the final arbiter in moral decision making.

So, when Catholics make decisions, even if it goes against what a bishop says, they’re doing the right thing. Doing the wrong thing would be doing what the bishop says even though it is wrong. Catholicism has this huge internal logic that we see Catholics followings these days.

You must understand that. I’m sure there are many in the Catholic hierarchy that believe that following a teaching that is fundamentally flawed, such as that on contraception, is the right thing to do. Many of them in good faith do believe this church teaching: that each time you have sex you must remain open to the transmission of life.

What I fear is that it’s a much more political rather than pastoral decision. The birth control commission was set up by Pope John XXIII during the early 1960s. The contraceptive pill had been invented by Doctor John Rock, an Irish Catholic physician in Boston.

Contraception in the form of the pill meant that there was the possibility that women worldwide and Catholic women worldwide would be able to access a method of birth control that could improve the lives and freedoms of women and for people to have sexual relations without having children that they could not afford and could not look after.

This was a revolutionary moment in the early 60s. John XXIII was a modernizing pope. He was the guy that set up the process for Vatican II that took the nuns out of their convents and out in the community to the front lines in places like El Salvador and Nicaragua.

And it was John XXIII who believed in aggiornamento, the Italian phrase used to mean bringing the church up to date. He said to the guys at the Vatican, “Do you think we should put this in Vatican II?” They were more of the conservative bent.

They were concerned that Vatican II would get out of their control, which it did. They said to him, “No, with this birth control thing, why don’t we set up a birth control commission?” So, they got together with a bunch of priests, bishops and cardinals, and the birth control commission started meeting in the early 60s. Sadly, John XXIII passed away; Pope Paul VI took over in 1965.

Pope Paul VI looked at the commission and he had a rather strange notion. He thought maybe the birth control commission, cardinals, bishops and priests would benefit from having some people who had sex advising them. They went around the world and they found some faithful, married Catholic couples and brought them along to talk to the birth control commission.

The stories they told so moved the people of the commission. What they were talking about was married life and how, especially when it’s hard to put bread on the table and hard to get your kids educated, many couples struggle. Could you imagine if you had a couple of kids and you were fearful that every time you wanted to be intimate with your husband it could result in another pregnancy, another mouth to feed? They spoke about that.

The medical phrase grand multipara, it was invented in, believe it or not, the Republic of Ireland in Dublin. It was people in the maternity hospital noticing women who gave birth after birth after birth until they died and were so worn out and sick.

There was a consciousness around that situation when the lay people, lay married people, spoke to the bishops about married life when you don’t have the ability to control your own fertility. And this is why I believe in miracles, because in the hearts and minds of those bishops, those cardinals changed. The majority report that came out in the late 60s from the birth control commission, which said there was no impediment, nothing to stop the Church changing its teaching on contraception.

Imagine what that would mean for the Catholic Church, having waged a war against the use of condoms. It has charities around the world that control people’s access to what healthcare they get.

Imagine what it would mean for women in developing countries who still today will die because they can’t control the number or spacing of their children. Would it not have been a revolutionary moment when this birth control commission of faithful cardinals and bishops listening to the lay people came forward and said, “Yes, you can change this ban on contraception; each time you have sex, it doesn’t have to be open to the transmission of life.”?

The Pulitzer Prize winner Gary Will wrote a good book called Papal Sin, and I highly recommend it to people because Gary talked to a lot of people involved in the birth control commission. He looks at why it was that Pope John Paul VI rejected the majority finding of the commission: ultimately, because he didn’t have enough faith in Catholics. Instead, he listened to the ultraconservative voices that were surrounding him. They told him that if he admitted that the birth control commission was right, if he reversed the ban on contraception, then the whole Church would fall apart. Next thing, they would want changes on this, that and the other.

It’s quite possible we would want a lot more change. However, the cynicism of deciding that they’re going to reject the majority support is astounding. I’m sure the Holy Spirit was guiding that majority report and accepting a minority report was wrong. It was wrong to continue the ban on contraception, and to this day that minority report is the reason why in the United States we have bishops lobbying the Trump administration to take no cost contraception out of the Affordable Care Act.

This is the legacy of that minority report. Today we still have bishops lobbying here in the United States, lobbying as the Holy See in the United Nations and lobbying around the world to stop people from being able to exercise their free conscience when it comes to contraception, reproductive health care or abortion.

3. Jacobsen: Thank you much for your time again, Jon.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] President, Catholics for Choice.

[2] Individual Publication Date: July 1, 2018 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/jon-obrien; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Interview with Jon O’Brien [Online].July 2018; 17(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/jon-obrien.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, July 1). Interview with Jon O’Brien. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/jon-obrien.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Interview with Jon O’Brien. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A, July. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/jon-obrien>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “Interview with Jon O’Brien.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/jon-obrien.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Interview with Jon O’Brien.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A (July 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/jon-obrien.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Interview with Jon O’Brien‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/jon-obrien>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Interview with Jon O’Brien‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/jon-obrien.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Interview with Jon O’Brien.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 17.A (2018):July. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/jon-obrien>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Interview with Jon O’Brien [Internet]. (2018, July; 17(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/jon-obrien.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-06-22

In Conversation with Peter Haresnape

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 17.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Thirteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: June 22, 2018

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 4,930

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Peter Haresnape is the General Secretary of the Student Christian Movement of Canada. He discusses: religious teachings in upbringing; the ecumenical movement; finding and join the Student Christian Movement of Canada; the state of the Christianity among youth and students in the SCM world; anti-oppression and the spiritual movement with SCM; liberation theology; perspectives on sexuality; the irreligious and the religious in dialogue and activism; Indigenous solidarity; and targeted objective and hopes.

Keywords: Canada, Christian, general secretary, Peter Haresnape, Student Christian Movement of Canada.

In Conversation with Peter Haresnape: General Secretary, Student Christian Movement of Canada[1],[2],[3]

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, how was upbringing in terms of religion or religious teachings in the household?

Peter Haresnape: I grew in what we would today call an intentional community in the East of England. It was comprised of my parents and a few other couples that were trying to follow more of a charismatic Christianity than was common in the types of churches that they grew up in, like the Church of England or things like that.

So, they ended up buying a house together, then a church came out of that. So, I grew up in that house and also in that church. It was pretty Evangelical in its mission and very charismatic, which was pretty unusual in the UK at that time.

Although, there were lots of other churches across the country that were doing that. However, never large numbers of people. So, growing up, it always felt a bit weird or I was always a bit weird in a fairly secular society that I not only went to church, but also lived in the house with a bunch of other people in the middle of a small city in East England.

This is not the usual. So, my religious upbringing was all tangled up with this unusual household. We lived there until I was about 9, then my family left that community and moved to a different house. However, still carried on taking part in that church.

This was a very non-political community in the sense that they didn’t weigh in heavily on political issues. However, that meant it generally had this conservative feel to it, if that makes sense. So, they would have said they were nonpartisan. However, that defaulted to a type of conservatism.

So, that’s my upbringing. I carried on to that type of church after going to university. However, gradually found, that I was more and more drawn to a more ecumenical, definitely more left-wing types of Christianity and more socially engaged type of things.

So, in that, it was pretty inspired by Christian anarchism as a force and eventually I liked that tradition and that’s what I also gravitated towards in my young adult years.

2. Jacobsen: You used the term “ecumenical.” With regards to the Christian ecumenical movement, what does the term mean? And how is it interpreted within its proper context?

Haresnape: My use of it, personally, in terms of my life story is that I grew up with this idea that we were this particular church. We were the only ones that had it right and everybody else was wrong.

The spirit of God was with us and it wasn’t with these other churches. Most of the people who were part of that church upbringing had maybe grown up in a religious environment and belief that this was at best like a cultural thing or actually corrupt or something like that.

Years after this upbringing, I began to actually realize other people’s sincere Christian beliefs who were not part of this community. People from different Christian groups could be for each other.

So, ecumenism for me means acknowledging those many different streams and navigating them not based on what’s wrong or right necessarily, but on an understanding that there’s genuine truth or a truthfulness perhaps in each of these streams.

That there’s an advantage to being conversant in all of these different streams. Within the Student Christian Movement, that’s always been an ecumenical movement intentionally. The other movements that I draw the most inspiration from have always had intentional ecumenical attempts to bring in different streams of Christianity and have found that to be an important part of their identity.

3. Jacobsen: Eventually, you found yourself in the Student Christian Movement of Canada. It is a youth and student-led grassroots network with an emphasis on community and diversity, radical faith, action, and social justice. How did you find it? What did you decide to join it?

Haresnape: So SCM, many countries have SCMs. I believe they’re all fairly different from each other, potentially. In the UK, most of the campuses are either SCM campuses or Christian Union campuses.

The SCM is the more progressive and the CU is the more Evangelical. So, the university I went to had a Christian Union. So, I never thought about the SCM until I came to Canada in 2010 to work with Christian Peacemaker Teams, which is another important organization in my life.

I began to meet all these people connected with the SCM. I didn’t know about the SCM; then when I went back to the UK to do a speaking tour about my work with Christian Peacemaker Teams, I met all these people from the SCM in the UK and realized they were all these people who were engaged in the stuff that excited me about religion.

It was my luck that I ended up not them at the time when I was a student myself. So, I was never involved with the SCM as a student. However, in Canada, I became involved with them through organizing the Cahoots Festival which is a faith justice and do it yourself festival that we do every year.

The SCM gives a primary organizing impetus to it. However, I was invited in as somebody who’d done a bit of organizing of this type of thing before to help with that. It is done in partnership with other groups that have some shared values.

So, I was involved as a volunteer organizer for the first couple years. Then last year, the General Secretary at the time, who was a friend of mine, decided to quit so that she could move to another country.

So, I applied for the position because I’d done 6 years with my previous organization, which is about as much as anyone does with Christian Peacemaker Teams. There were changes coming with the team that I thought it made sense for me to step out at that time.

4. Jacobsen: Looking at the contexts now in Canada, what is the state of the forms of Christianity among youth and students that the Student Christian Movement would support?

Haresnape: A lot of the people that we connect with are those who had a religious upbringing, a Christian upbringing. However, they find that they are not comfortable in that. So, for the vast majority of cases, that’s because they’re queer, or because they don’t agree with their church’s teachings on sexuality.

Or generally on justice issues or they’ve grown up in an affirming congregation and they don’t find a home with other campus Christian organizations. It seems to me that the majority of campus Christian organizations are pretty much conservative, small or Orthodox.

A lot of people who grew up in those religious environments who reject that will also reject the religious environment. The SCM is there for people who want to keep their religion but get rid of the social conservatism or whatever.

The more conservative outlook on life. We’re a pretty small organization and we tend to attract people who are trying to be on the fringes or who find themselves on the fringes. So, there’s stories of people who, maybe, don’t feel totally at home as a Christian within the more perhaps atheist or anti-Christian political societies.

But also who find, that the Christian groups on campus are too conservative or too non-political for them and don’t include that nice aspect. So, we’re like in between these different movements. It is how it feels to me.

We’re not the only ones doing this. There’s other organization specifically and maybe some other groups of people that are doing this. However, we’re certainly the oldest of those organizations. Does that answer your question?

5. Jacobsen: It does. I want to go through the principles quickly. You emphasize anti-oppression. What is anti-oppression? How does this fit within the spiritual movement of SCM?

Haresnape: Anti-oppression specifically refers to the idea that the forces of racism and sexism, or homophobia and transphobia. This long list of forms of oppression that people experience is part of the society that we live in.

So, it is not about individual actions or attitude, these are values or power structures that are baked into our society and that we need to have a principled and systematic response to them of anti-oppression.

This also implies that violence against women or violence against queer people or violence against people of colour is not again a matter of individual criminality or not a matter of individual criminality.

However, it is a matter of social pressures, historical trends, things like that. So, the SCM is one of the organizations I say that would try to build a different way of functioning and a way that tackles forms of oppression, and also give the people the tools to eliminate them in other parts of their lives and try to encourage that.

It also tends to be a bit of a systematizing formula or something like that. We maybe come to understand racism and then we use those analysis tools to understand sexism as well or to understand issues of a built-in disability and access.

So, it is a lens that we would use to view our societies and our structures and also try to encourage other people to use those lenses to understand; how it relates to spirituality differs from person to person.

Some people would feel that anti-oppression is like the Christian thing to do in the sense of “Jesus was intentionally inclusive. Jesus didn’t discriminate against people based on their ethnic origin or their physical capacities and gifts and, therefore, we shouldn’t either.”

Other people would see say racism or white supremacy as being essentially a spirit or spiritual power that Christianity is pulled to resist, to cast out, to speak out against, things like that. So, the spiritual aspect tends to differ from person to person.

As well, how they bring that into their spiritual life as well also differs, this might be something that is felt to be like good policy. Church is the one place that they as a person can explore that. Or they might also feel a sense of religious obligation or obligation to their religion to pursue this in all areas of their life.

So, it does differ.

6. Jacobsen: Also, something of particular note is the Liberation Theology aspect of SCM with the “preferential option for the poor.” You know, as well as I do, that in the past, either in Latin America or South America, there were political assassinations of Jesuit priests who were exposing this.

Also, something of interest to me is the fact that it is more in this world of a focus for the poor. I find that aligned with some formal irreligious belief system such as humanism or unitarian universalism or ethical culture.

So, what does this mean within the context of SCM, Liberation Theology?

Haresnape: It would certainly be something we would draw upon to some extent. It is an interesting question because like that’s not necessarily a place that we would jump to and how we describe ourselves, that formal liberation.

Even though, when a lot of Liberation Theology practices like the way the Bible is interpreted in community, the way people are expected to bring in their own context of oppression and liberation into it, for example. That’s something we would definitely do.

However, we’re a little divorced perhaps from the historical context there, not Latin America, but also I would say African American Liberation Theology as well. Or things that maybe we have some impact upon that maybe that we don’t intentionally recognize that in the way that we could do.

In the past, SCM certainly has been stronger in this and has done exchanges with SCMs in Latin America in particularly. There was an exposure trip to El Salvador a couple of years ago. But, you use Liberation Theology as its focus for study and the focus of that was bringing students and people into contact with that and how that had been. Does that answer the question?

7. Jacobsen: Yes, it does. Next on the list was LGBTQ-affirming, how does this differ from mainstream perspectives on sexuality that we see in Canada with regards to, well, Christianity at large?

Haresnape: The SCM has always, not always, it would be silly to say it is always been queer affirming. It certainly hasn’t been. However, it was pretty much an early adopter of the idea of it. Queer and trans people could be full members and participants, or that sexuality was not a bar to membership, full membership and full participation.

That is the way, as far as I understand it, the first churches approached this issue, about the SCM. In Canada, at the time that I was coming into contact with SCM 5 or 6 years ago, it was very, very clear and very, very pragmatic and systematic about how it talked about these issues surrounding sexuality.

It still is a strong part of our core identity that we want to be a place where queer and trans people can be safe, can explore their Christian identity and all the other aspects of identity within the organization.

So, we don’t exist so much as a place for conversation about these issues. There would be space for a variety of different views, but the SCM itself would be perhaps – we would say – would have a preference or option for queer and trans people who wanted to have full access to marriage.

Things like that. So, we wouldn’t be that neutral on that or if some other Christian organizations that try very hard to be a place where people of different opinions can co-exist; whereas, the SCM would come down on the side of the safety of queer and trans individuals rather than other groups.

The way this was explained to me by a former General Secretary, a number of years ago, was there are lots and lots of conservative churches. There are lots of safe spaces for people who are more conservative or perhaps queerphobic.

However, we don’t have a lot of those spaces for Christians who aren’t; it is pretty strong in our materials. We always try to use rainbows and stuff like that to identify ourselves. And that’s because on campus today, the majority of Christian organizations would not be affirming of queer people.

Also, we want to show that not to students, but to other organizations that we are queer and trans affirming and inclusive. We used to counter this idea that a fundamentalist conservative Christianity is like the voice of Christianity is the only way of talking about it. I don’t know.

That sometimes works, sometimes doesn’t. Other organizations like queer organizations would still be suspicious of a Christian organization. However, it at least gives us a way to converse with them.

It doesn’t seem to have impacted our ability to do interface work as well or to even relate to other Christian groups that would not show these things. So, that’s pretty good.

8. Jacobsen: Also, another principle is interfaith. It is to build those bridges through dialogue and work. Another phrase that was introduced to me, I forget from who, was “inter-belief,” where this can then include the irreligious as well without by title implying only faiths.

Would you also include the irreligious in regards to having room for dialogue as well as activist work?

Haresnape: Definitely. I would say in some ways that’s a natural way that our coordinators at different campuses would seek out those connections to do the activist angle and seek to do that activism through partnership with groups that wouldn’t necessarily share our religious connections.

The SCM has also not had a doctoral statement or certainly any expectation that people hold to a particular set of spiritual beliefs for being a member. So, we would certainly have people who would identify themselves as part of the SCM who are atheist or agnostic.

I would say that they’ve pretty much always been part of the SCM as far as I can tell. I found a record of something called the Annual Joust, which was this event that the SCM and the UFT had in maybe the 70s.

That was a debate between the agnostic and the religious members of the SCM; everybody looked forward to it with great anticipation. Maybe, the interfaith, or inter-belief, more formal partnership, getting together with a particular, set of other religious groups.

That’s more recent in some ways. I don’t know the history of that so much. However, I know the SCM’s have been involved in a few different projects that try to build up those interfaith conversations.

I should say, there was this Faith House that worked quite well in Ottawa that the SCM was somewhat involved in that was an intentional community for people of different religious beliefs, still exists.

We’re not super involved in it, but it is still going. There was an attempt to do the same thing in Toronto for a number of years running, but it never took off. But, it was this idea of people of different religions living together and learning from each other.

So, it definitely fits within a project that the SCM would be involved in. However, I am not sure it has ever been a core value in the same way that some organizations exist specifically. It has been solely for interreligious work.

9. Jacobsen: Also, you have three, what seems to me like, associated principles: Indigenous solidarity, environmental justice, and consensus. Indigenous solidarity, especially with regards to activism and environmentalism, or what is now termed environmental justice.

As well, the methodology in terms of making decisions about how one applies solidarity as well as environmental justice, which is through consensus. Can you dive for a couple minutes into what is meant by Indigenous solidarity, environmental justice, and consensus within the context of SCM?

Haresnape: The Indigenous solidarity and consensus are easier to talk about in some ways than the environmental justice aspect of things. The SCM is a predominantly non-partisan and secular – separation of church and state – organization in terms of the churches that support us and the people that come to us.

So, there is an intentional desire to identify that as part of who we are; that we are predominantly the non-partisan and secular individuals and the organizational structure itself is very a secular Christian organization clearly in the way we do things.

So, part of it is acknowledging that because then that gives us the capacity to engage Indigenous solidarity from an honest place where we can be honest about who we are, why we’re doing the things that we’re doing, then our actual program work around that looks different depending on what’s going on at the moment.

So, some of the program work we’ve done in past was when the TRC was actively taking recommendations and some things like that. There was a group of SCM members in Winnipeg that did something, where they walked from Winnipeg to Edmonton in time for the start of the Edmonton TRC.

Visiting the communities on the way and talking about this work of solidarity that Christians specifically had a responsibility for, because of recognizing the way that Christianity had been part of the colonization and continues to be part of way Indigenous communities are assimilated or colonized or attempted to do that.

So, there’s a particular Christian responsibility there. There’s also some particular opportunities there as well. So, our solidarity doesn’t come from this place of having a responsibility to right the wrongs of the past; the particular violence of colonization and assimilation.

Also, this idea that as a whole the impact of Christian European-Canadian society has been pretty bad for the land as well and the types of resource extraction that take place are damaging not to Indigenous people’s cultures and life ways, but to the environment itself and the air and the water that we all rely upon.

So, we would see those as dual concerns. I would say this is certainly a personal thing. I don’t know if I can say it is an SCM thing. However, I would definitely say that we would want our Indigenous solidarity.

We would want our environmental justice work to always come from a place of solidarity with Indigenous communities that are doing that work, when those two things get divorced it can be quite damaging.

When about what has the SCM done for environmental justice, in the time I’ve been a member, we haven’t done very much actually. However, Indigenous solidarity, I can talk about some specific things.

However, that would be a principle. We would say that Indigenous solidarity should lead the way or should guide how we do our environmental justice work, then consensus building or consensus decision making comes from way back and has been how things are decided.

An idea that whoever’s at the table has wisdom to share. We should have a structure that works like that. I don’t know if I have a lot more to say about that. It is a way of decision-making that I am familiar with from some groups in the UK, which did not have a particularly fond view of religion.

However, I believe it has a way of making decisions. It is much older than that. The Quakers had a lot to do with the way consensus decision-making was designed. Where there has been formal decision-making in the communities I’ve been involved in, it has usually been a consensus model.

10. Jacobsen: Looking ahead for SCM as well as its work within itself and in coordination with other organizations in Canada, what are some of the targeted objectives? And what are the general hopes for the next 5 years?

Haresnape: One is very pragmatic where I am on a gradual process of growth and rebuilding, essentially. The SCM was big in the 60s and then has been declining ever since then to the point that 4 or 5 years ago; there was a decision made. “Should we close down the organization or should we give it another go?” And they decided, “Okay. Get back on it.”

At that point, there was no programming. So, it is like starting from scratch again. So, we’re going to continue that gradual growth and also adapt to the changing circumstances of the church.

Particularly, the organizations that have always sponsored the SCM are themselves in decline, have less money, less capacity to support the type of work that we do. So, we also need to think about how sustainable we actually are on the long run.

However, those are the administrative concerns. In terms of program stuff, right now, we’re focusing on engaging white supremacy and working with other groups and trying to find students that are passionate about this anti-racist work.

We’re using more of the tools that we have for training around non-violence. The ways to keep people safe on the streets when there are protests and things like that, helping people to understand spiritual practice as something that they can do.

What’s behind that is an attempt to speak into a culture of cynicism or despondency or this idea that you can spend your whole day scrolling your Facebook feed and read bad news from everywhere, we want to get it into people’s heads and hands that there is actually something that they can do.

It doesn’t mean that they’ll have all the answers. The process of treating people in non-violent direct action and non-violent accompaniment, being present in the streets in solidarity with oppressed people is itself a mobilizing force that gets people out of this sense of despair or shock or despondency.

That’s very practical. It is very important for right now, where North America is. It is a mobilizing force. It is something that anybody can do. So, I am enthusiastic about that. Individual units in Canada focus on different things based on what makes sense for them.

I know that several units in 2017 were thinking about how to offer self-care on the campuses outside of solely Christian model or something like that. So, people are looking at ways so that they can make self-care resources around exam time next year.

That will be a way that they can bless the people around them, I suppose. So, not traditional outreach in the sense of trying to persuade people. However, something that directly engages the stress of students these days.

That’s pretty cool. Those ongoing things around Indigenous justice. Right now, SCM members are engaged in supporting the push for Bill C-262, which is going to, hopefully if it passes, will bring the United Nations on the Rights of Indigenous People into Canadian law.

So, that’s something for this year, but is going to be a campaign for the next couple of months certainly. After that, I don’t know what will happen. However, I know that there will always be people who are engaged in Indigenous solidarity.

We’ve done partnerships with Christian Peacemaker Teams in the past. That’s the organization I used to work for doing Indigenous solidarity work. That model that they do of short-term delegations for learning and peacemaking is something that the SCM has also done in the past.

So we’re always looking for particular trips that we can take; ways that we can get people out of their universities and actually into direct solidarity relationships with other communities. We do that stuff mostly through the World Student Christian Federation and programs that they run: leadership training, theological study, and political action programs.

However, we would also do things with Christian Peacemaker Teams or other groups as possible. Generally, there’s always things like the Cahoots Festival, which is a gathering of communities. That’s our annual event basically. The big annual event that we do in the Summer.

So, the Cahoots Festival reflects the general concerns of the organization that we engage in faith, justice and do that in a way that empowers people with sharing. Things like that. We try and use those principles in our other programs as well.

Those are the things that come mind at the moment.

11. Jacobsen: Do you have any final thoughts or feelings, conclusion based on the conversation today?

Haresnape: We pretty much covered everything I thought we would. It is interesting to me. So, what is it? So, in less than 5 years, it will be our hundredth anniversary. I don’t know quite what form the the SCM will be in by that point.

However, we’re always going to be around in one form or another. So, I am hoping we can mark our hundredth anniversary in a pretty good style.

12. Jacobsen: Thank you very much for your time, Peter.

Haresnape: You’re very welcome.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] President, Trinity Western University.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 22, 2018 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/peter-haresnape; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Image Credit: Peter Haresnape.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. In Conversation with Peter Haresnape [Online].June 2018; 17(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/peter-haresnape.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, June 22). In Conversation with Peter Haresnape. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/peter-haresnape.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. In Conversation with Peter Haresnape. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A, June. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/peter-haresnape>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “In Conversation with Peter Haresnape.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bob-kuhn.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “In Conversation with Peter Haresnape.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A (June 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/peter-haresnape.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘In Conversation with Peter Haresnape‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/peter-haresnape>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘In Conversation with Peter Haresnape‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/peter-haresnape.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “In Conversation with Peter Haresnape.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 17.A (2018):June. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/peter-haresnape>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. In Conversation with Peter Haresnape [Internet]. (2018, June; 17(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/peter-haresnape.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

 

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2018-06-22

Interview with Bob Kuhn, J.D. (Part One)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 17.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Thirteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: June 22, 2018

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 4,066

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Bob Kuhn, J.D. is the President of Trinity Western University (TWU). He discusses: family background and influence on development; sect or tradition of Christianity in the household; the comfortable and uncomfortable parts of the conceptual superstructure of early life; position held in the student body; tasks and responsibilities as the president of TWU; the changes to TWU over time; concerns in the academic environment; and moving closer or farther away from academic ideals.

Keywords: Bob Kuhn, CEO, Christian, president, religion, Trinity Western University.

Interview with Bob Kuhn, J.D.: President, Trinity Western University (Part One)[1],[2],[3]

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What was family background? How did this influence subsequent development in early life, childhood through adolescence?

Bob Kuhn: I grew up on an apple orchard in a farming area outside of Vernon, British Columbia. Typical farm kid, I worked on the farm. I worked on the neighbouring farms. Everything from picking apples to spraying.

I worked at all kinds of things, including haying. I grew up in a family that did not have a lot of money. We had a very simple, but, it was a kind of idyllic upbringing. Normal family, or what was then normal [Laughing], mother and father and four kids, I was the oldest.

My father’s family was a very large German family with 14 children. I had a lot of uncles. Some had a significant influence on my development as a young person. Initially, we lived on my grandparents’ farm, and my grandmother would take care of me during the day.

I remember her being a fairly typical German housewife. She worked hard, and was not particularly appreciated. She did not go to school. I wrote a poem about this: “My grandmother loved me.” Even though she never said, it was evident.

I grew up in a way that was wholesome. We would go to church every Sunday and work hard every weekday. Nobody drank to excess, nobody smoked, it was pretty clean living. I was the oldest of the grandchildren.  I was one of the oldest of the cousins, so I got better treatment in some respects. My grandfather would take me along with him into the apple orchard. He would save a spot for me amongst the apples.

He would save a spot for me to sit on his lap and drive. It was a very positive upbringing. No significant negative effects, and really, indirectly protected from some of the harsher realities of life. I had the typical childhood adventures.

But nothing extraordinary in a lot of ways. So, that really led me to a place of needing to investigate on my own, which was, fortunately for me I think, taking place at this institution (Trinity Western) in 1971-1972. It was very formative for me.

I was a bit of a hypocrite in terms of my faith at the time. I went to church, I had the head knowledge, but it was really a heart or a matter of the heart. It became a matter of the heart here with other students who had an impact on my thinking about faith questions I was asking at the time.

I look back at those first 20 years of life in Vernon or outside of Vernon as being not perfect, but idyllic, I cannot explain it much better. I was challenged, not so much by teachers but by my uncles. A couple of them were reasonably well-educated. Some of them were only a few years older than me.

One of my uncles taught me how to speak when I was three-years-old.  He was only a few years older than I was.

It was very different then; it was a great upbringing. My father is now dead. But my mother is still alive. We had a strong family. We had a good sense of community-mindedness. My father was a volunteer fireman and involved in leadership.

My mother was involved around the home. It was sort of an Ozzy and Harriet – I would not have known who that was – experience. I stretched and broke boundaries a bit. But I wouldn’t call what I did blatant rebellion.

2. Jacobsen: When it comes to the German-stoic upbringing out on an apple orchard in Vernon with a somewhat educated family challenging you, educating you with vocabulary and so on, I want to talk about the sect of Christianity, which was not mentioned.

What was the tradition of Christianity in the household or in the community?

Kuhn: We grew up in a Baptist church. I was first taken to church in an apple box. It was a simple and small church. So, it was a part of our every week life. My grandparents were German Baptist. We slowly faded away from German.

I grew up in the church going to Sunday school, learning all the Bible stories, sitting through church services somewhat begrudgingly, and then things evolved over time. At that point, I really had to test for myself the reality of the Gospel and say, “Does this work? Does this test out?”

For me, it made a lot of sense, even in the relatively naïve context in which I lived in until I left home. It was not a preachy environment. There was not a great show of faith on your sleeve. We were expected to live according to Christian values, to be giving and forgiving, not harshly judgmental.

It was probably more of a head knowledge. In some ways, I think churches back then inoculated some people against what they were teaching because it became acculturated. But it was not what you would say is heartfelt.

My faith was a more intellectual endeavour or pursuit, or framework, as a child. That is what it felt like. It was really only after leaving home that I came to a place of sometimes not entirely comfortable conclusion, but, at least, a framework or a worldview that I felt comfortable with. There was a lot of space in this worldview.

This is the division of Evangelical Christianity that I grew up in. I have really continued in that path without abandoning what I think about things, especially in this college or university environment where I faced a lot of hard questions, questions that define the why of living.

3. Jacobsen: From the conceptual framework or superstructure, what was comfortable or uncomfortable? I ask because you mentioned some comfortable aspects.

Kuhn: I think uncomfortable, to start with, which emanates from not knowing it all. I think there is a discomfort that comes from lack of control. The degree we can know it, control it, can understand it, can define it, can pin it on the wall, can draw it on a piece of paper. That is controllable, definable, understandable.

There is so much more than that. What I find almost laughable is that people purport to think they have got a corner on all that is and they speak as if they know that from some sort of factual basis.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Kuhn: If anyone looks at the stars at night, this is a pretty remarkable existence, “I wonder why this is. How did this come to be?” The standard existential questions, I find the discomfort comes from not knowing the standard questions.

At the same time, it is a very good place to be, because once you have all the answers to all the questions then you have superimposed yourself onto all of reality. You have defined a reality that is very ego-centric.

I think it is a shame when people do that. The need to have inquiry is important. Knowing the process as best you can on the way to asking, “Why?”

4. Jacobsen: In the 1970s, you held an important position in the student body. What was that position?

Kuhn: It was quite by accident.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Kuhn: I wasn’t disliked. I wasn’t bullied for the most part. I just didn’t have the panache or whatever. So, I came to Trinity. Trinity was a small environment back then, plus a few or minus a few hundred. So, you don’t hide in that smaller group very well.

I decided – I do not remember why – to take a run at being student body Vice President. It was only a 2-year school then. You did that run at the end of your first year. Nobody ran against me. So, I was acclaimed the Vice President.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Kuhn: 3 or 4 weeks after the academic year started, the dean of students came up to me and said that I would be taking over the president’s role because the president was not keeping their grades up. So, they were removed from the post and  I all of a sudden became the unelected, acclaimed president.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Kuhn: It is ironic because it parallels the story of starting here. I would have never guessed in a million years, that I would sit in the role of president of Trinity Western University. That would be laughable to me.

So, it reflects on the fact that I didn’t really intend to become the president. I was actually on the search committee for the replacement of my predecessor. We were out in the hall after the first meeting of the search committee.

We were talking about the need for a president, somebody to hold down the fort while we look for the new president. Someone said, “Why don’t you do it?” I said, “Are you kidding? They would never want a lawyer who has no experience in an academic environment, who has no experience in leading a fairly significant group of people.” I think we have 700 employees and several thousand students.

I just laughed. He said, “No, no, I am serious. You are thinking about slowing down in your practice. Maybe, this is something that you could do. It would only be a little while.” My wife and I prayed about it over the weekend.

I had received a call from one of the directors who said, “I would like to take your name on Monday to see, if you would be willing to do this.” My wife agreed, which was ironic because she is not an adventuresome person.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Kuhn: We felt this is a place we had really benefited from as young people. Giving a few months back, sitting in the chair until the real president shows up didn’t seem like a big ask, I thought I would be helping out, more of a figurehead than not.

So, here I am 6 years later, I am still here. It is ironic. I would never have guessed. Frankly, I have really enjoyed the role. I have enjoyed the students. It is because of them that I stay, I think. It is a long story. But I have told the student enough about this.

I tell them, “I played on the soccer team, but the soccer team only had 11 players. I had to play goalie because that was the only place left to play” [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Kuhn: I was pretty mediocre.

5. Jacobsen: With an organization as large as a postsecondary institution, there are not that many institutions in the country, especially compared to the United States. There are something like 100 public and private combined universities in Canada.

Something like 2,600 universities in the United States, public-private combined. So, such an organization as Trinity Western University, a Christian university unique in its relative size and representation in the country.

That leads to questions about tasks and responsibilities because it is an important position that, as you noted, you more or less fell into. So, what are the tasks and responsibilities that come along with being the president of an academic institution?

Kuhn: I have come to describe it this way. I have had the same question from different perspectives, “What is it like? What do you do as a president?” I say, “It is a lot like being the mayor of a small town. You have endless responsibilities.” They are new every day. A large part is relational, not everybody sees it that way, I am not an authoritarian figure. You probably know around campus. If you ask, everyone calls me, “Bob.” I am not known as “President Kuhn,” “Mr. Kuhn,” or “Dr. Kuhn.”

I do not feel entitled to it, I am not a hierarchical person. I enjoy the relationships, the ability to journey together and be part of somebody else’s journey in life. To me, that is what it is like.

So, building an executive team, one that does the real work. It is trying to provide leadership skills to build that team and develop trust, and making sure that – as much as I can –  I support the whole community in whatever way that I can.

That is all the way from this Sunday, where I will go to the Can-Am hockey game. I will cheer on the students and hand out the cup at the end of the evening. Two weeks ago, I had an anything goes night.  We had a panel. Students pumped question at me. You can imagine the questions students would ask, which is anything under the Sun. It is an extremely varied situation. If you look at the job description, you think, “Nobody can do it.”

It is true. that you are ultimately responsible for everything. You can shout and holler, but you don’t get people any more motivated. It is almost impossible to define what the president of the university does.

Our university is unique in some ways compared to other universities. But in other ways, it is similar to other universities. You have the benefit of still being relational with students. That is my favourite part of the day. I probably do that more than most.

I enjoy it. It is really rewarding. It gives a clear picture of whether we’re doing the right things the right way. Maybe, I can be a positive influence in these transitional years of life. That is it in a nutshell.

6. Jacobsen: You jumped in an earlier response from Vice President to accidental President – the acclaimed president – work in the 70s as an undergraduate for the student body to the current work as the president of Trinity Western University.

When I reflect on that jump, I reflect on that leap in life experience because a decade is a long time. Especially as I get older, if a year is used well, it is a significant amount of time.

With that difference in time in different leadership positions at different points of the university, and different scales in terms of the responsibility and who are you responsible to and have to speak to at the end of the day, what do you notice in this transition of the university over several decades and in responsibility too?

Kuhn: I suspect there is more gravamen to the position such as it is: strategic decision-making priorities. When people ask, “What can I pray for you for?” I almost always say, “Determination of priorities.” Back then, it was simpler. Now, it is much more complex.

Back then, the consequences of messing up were minimal to none. Now, you make the wrong decision and you can end up in some very hot water, very quickly. In many ways, I feel like I am 18.

One of the parts that I really love is learning all the time. The constant demand to learn and be open to learning and to not be closed off to the means of experiencing, listening to other people.

I think that a lot of that was germinated out of my really early years. One of the values that I was taught was everybody is on a single plane. Everybody puts their pants on one leg at a time.

Everybody is, as a fundamental rule, a lot alike. There is no real need to be fearful of somebody elevated in status. There is no real need to look down on people supposedly down in status. That was training for a university setting.

There are hierarchies in a university setting. But if you break them down, they are real people underneath all the show. The university is almost unrecognizable to what it was before. There are a couple pictures on the wall. One recent aerial, one from the year 1970.

The difference is mammoth. The level of sophistication is huge. Back in 70/71/72, we had close relationships with the professors because we had to; you did not have a choice. Everybody knew everybody else. We would tell the story of someone coming to pick their babysitter.

They ask, “Do you know where Suzie Jones is?” You think, “Well, it is 4:00 o’clock. She is just getting out of psychology. She was wearing this today.” That is a small community.

Jacobsen: [Laughing] That is funny.

Kuhn: It is still relatively small, but it is about 10 times as big as then.

7. Jacobsen: When you look at the academic environment now, with transitions to more of the general perspective across the country of the academic environment or academia, what do you note as some of the positive trends? What do you notice as some concerns that are arising in the university system or the academic environment?

Kuhn: I struggle with the positive trend in the academic environment. It should, but nothing jumps to mind. I think that it is even difficult to say even what are the trends that one would track and say, “We are becoming more [fill in the blank],” that is positive.

I have trouble with the question. Honestly, I find it difficult. In many respects, we are deteriorating. I can see some natural forces: economics. Society has become, relatively speaking, fat and sassy, but we can’t afford to be fat and sassy anymore.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Kuhn: In that process, we become lazier in thinking, less civil, more emotional, more individual rights rather than community oriented. It is easier – as a relative outsider of academia – to see trends that I would find negative.

We are having a more diverse academic environment. That is a positive trend, depending on how you define diverse. We have a greater array of choices in environment. So, you are not so limited. I am not sure if that is always an advantage.

Some evidence seems to indicate the more choice we have then the more stress we are, so the less opportunity to choose in order to actualize those choices. Some people would say the 60s were a pretty tumultuous time.

But I think they do not hold a candle to the potential negative, think about how many people are in the university who suffer from depression. I may be blind and out of touch, but I do not think it was that weird in the 60s

Even though people might drop acid and drop out of the school. It is interesting to think of those who are in the upper levels of management and leadership and what values they cling to today.

Jacobsen: [Laughing] They are working at the bank.

Kuhn: I am perhaps a little bit skeptical of people who say that these are the advances. I am not sure that we have done ourselves much of a service there.

8. Jacobsen: What about the espoused values of the academic system? In some ideal world, people look for open inquiry, discussion, civil discourse, debate, and conversation around important topics in historical contexts, but also related to modern issues of concern to most of the population in a pluralistic, multiethnic, constitutional democracy such as Canada.

Have we moved closer to that ideal or farther from that ideal?

Kuhn: I am not sure. A few years ago, I would say that we are moving closer. Now, I think we are moving farther away. I think we are redefining pluralism. Society is redefining pluralism. What does pluralism mean? I find this a huge generalization.

As a society we tend to redefine what it wants to change. So, rather than the change in a choice manner, the change is in using the language a different way, so that we slip into the way of thinking. I am not sure that, in terms of values, some of the values, e.g. the value of family, are hard to define now.

You do not have the same nuclear family or traditional family. I am not suggesting that is a bad thing, but it is much more difficult to define. Are there merits to two-parent families? It is difficult to say that without getting yourself into a hoop full of trouble.

I find that in the academic environment. There is almost a bias or a predisposition to advocating for, as opposed to determining the science behind something. We are engaged in a fairly broad-based cultural experiment on many things.

The whole gender confusion if you will. I do not know what would be the best term because those terms are all interwoven. How will that all turn out? One of the things that we are losing ground on is the case of individual rights over communities.

Communities become tribes and tribes become tribal. There is very little communication between the tribes. It strikes me that those things are quite harmful to society in the end. I am not suggesting that it is an imbalance of community ruling over individual rights.

Because, at some level, individual rights are only protected by the community and the community is only as strong as the individuals in it. I think we are long past that. It shows in some obvious ways. The leaders that are prepared to take all of the junk that comes with leadership these days.

We talk about incivility. I would never want to run for public office because they would destroy me. I would take it too personally. Then we elevate some people who, perhaps, are our least favourite choice to positions of power because it is all that is left.

I think that is the way the people felt in the United States. What are we left with? What choice do we have? I think in some ways we are in the same kind of dilemma. That is not an accusation. Not all politicians are of questionable commitments.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] President, Trinity Western University.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 22, 2018 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bob-kuhn; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] J.D. (1979), University of British Columbia (J.D. 1979); B.A. (1976), University of British Columbia; A.A. (1972), Trinity Western College.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Interview with Bob Kuhn, J.D. (Part One) [Online].June 2018; 17(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bob-kuhn.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, June 22). Interview with Bob Kuhn, J.D. (Part One). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bob-kuhn.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Interview with Bob Kuhn, J.D. (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A, June. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bob-kuhn>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “Interview with Bob Kuhn, J.D. (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bob-kuhn.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Interview with Bob Kuhn, J.D. (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A (June 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bob-kuhn.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Interview with Bob Kuhn, J.D. (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bob-kuhn>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Interview with Bob Kuhn, J.D. (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bob-kuhn.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Interview with Bob Kuhn, J.D. (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 17.A (2018):June. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bob-kuhn>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Interview with Bob Kuhn, J.D. (Part One) [Internet]. (2018, June; 17(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/bob-kuhn.

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In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
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© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-06-22

Interview with Rev. Eric Derksen

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 17.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Thirteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: June 22, 2018

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,801

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Rev. Erik Derksen is the President & CEO of Vanguard College. He discusses: origins; intelligent design; Christian belief; Christian sect; the Mennonite Brethren; Mennonite groundwork in earlier life; educational experiences building into Christian faith; philosophical arguments; probabilities and other in-between arguments; being CEO and president of Vanguard College; size of the college; Christian colleges and universities having an association or organization; appeals and concerns of students; other appeals or services at a Christian college or university not provided by secular institutions from the point of view of Christians;main certifications of Vanguard College; most popular ones; hopes for building community; international human rights including freedom of belief and freedom of religion; living in Canada and freedom to religion and freedom of belief; and respect for a person’s right to believe or not to believe.

Keywords: CEO, Christian, Erik Derksen, president, religion, Vanguard College.

Interview with Rev. Erik Derksen: President & CEO, Vanguard College[1],[2],[3]]

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What is your origin story, to make this in line with the very prominent and popular superhero movies at the time?

Rev. Erik Derksen: I was born on the Prairies in Manitoba. My dad’s parents were first-generation Christians on their side. For my mom’s side of the family, faith has been part of their background for a long time. They were Russians who came over in the middle of the Russian Revolution.

In high school, I became a believer in the spring of 1975. I was 11 years old. Probably, the most dominant faith in my culture growing up was Christianity. I would read the Bible and we would pray as a family regularly. So, that was the air I breathed growing up.

Then I graduate high school. I went to Bible college for a year I went back to Brandon University for three years. Then I finished my CA designation in studies at the University of Manitoba. I worked as a chartered accountant for a number of years.

I had a call to vocational ministry in Winter of 1990. This call changed my life and my way of thinking. I cannot explain it in simple rational terms. I went back to Bible college for 1 year and then spent 3 years in seminary. That is my background.

2. Jacobsen: What is the particular sect of Christianity that you were, more or less, growing up into and, I assume, believe in at this time?

Derksen: I grew up in a Mennonite Brethren community. Right now, and for the last 25 years, I have been part of the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada.

3. Jacobsen: That is interesting. If you take the Mennonite Brethren context, and then you look at the Pentecostal context, and if you look at your own transition, how did you make the transition with two different sects but contained in a larger religion?

Derksen: To my perspective, Scott, 80% or more is very similar. At the core, there are incredibly strong similarities, even with many Catholics, Anglicans, and Lutherans. I appreciate the perspective of Mere Christianity written by C.S. Lewis. Most of the peripheral differences that distinguish us in no way substantially divide the evangelical Christian community.

When it comes to the core of it, there is very little difference. There exist some ethical differences in terms of how you live this or that out in your practical, everyday life. We each have faith community culture differences as well.

We all interpret the Word of God in the community. At times we have a different hermeneutic and apply things differently. That’s true within my own immediate evangelical context, and between denominations. As you very well know, the spectrum of Christianity is very broad, historically and in the present context.

Community forms a strong sense of where you identify. When I moved to Winnipeg, I connected with a church in the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada. However, it was in line with anybody who talked about the Word of God in a faith-based, cogent, cohesive, and philosophically consistent manner.

That appealed to me. I did not find a huge divergence from my Mennonite background.

4. Jacobsen: How did this build on the Mennonite groundwork laid out in the earlier life?

Derksen: From a Christian perspective, I think God used experiences in my personal life to influence and shape me. In perhaps the biggest change I experienced, the Bible began to open into a more fully blossoming flower. That may have had as much to do with to do my vocational calling as anything. Suddenly the Bible became more salient, more relevant, with a sense of urgency to it.

5. Jacobsen: When looking at the educational experiences, how did these, if at all, build into that Christian faith?

Derksen: Right, I took most of my pre-medical training in the first three years of university. I took lots of Biology, Chemistry, Physics, and so on. I love learning. My philosophy in life is that nature is a revelation of God Himself. Some things can be known about God by studying and understanding creation.

He created everything. So, the more that I can study the creation and see its marvelous intricacies, the more obvious God’s ownership and control become evident to me and the more I appreciate the intelligent design behind it.

6. Jacobsen: What would be some of the examples in a broader context that point to the “intelligent design”?

Derksen: If you go from the micro to the macro, even if you look at the cell and the intricacies of the cell, and the functioning parts of a single-celled organism, it seems evident to me that the sense of design is observable. I have a hard time grasping hold of the evolutionary premise that if life began with a single-celled organism, how did all those parts fall into place all at once, in a single moment to produce life?

For me personally, it was less of a leap to believe in the Creator than to believe in evolution. Then when I go to the macro, and I look at the vastness of the universe, and the physical laws holding it together, it speaks of a splendour and a majesty, and an incredibly intelligent power behind it all.

Think about the very positioning of the Earth in our galaxy and the sustenance of life on the Earth. To me, it was a marvelous example and witness of creation and of a Creator, of incredible power and intelligence, behind the cosmos.

7. Jacobsen: If you look at some of the more philosophical sides of Christian belief, what were some of the arguments that you found more convincing or powerful for the Christian worldview?

Derksen: For me, the first chapters of the Book of Genesis in the Bible are very meaningful as I understand life, the meaning of life, and the purpose of Creation. The Bible is both historical and theological, but it is not primarily a history book. To my understanding, God has revealed much about Himself and His purpose in the Bible. The first chapters of the Bible are essential for me in this discovery.

The Bible contains what I believe to be God’s evident, revealed story in this creation as it relates to me, as it relates to people, as it relates to our relationship with creation and the Creator. Of course, the Bible begins with the assumption of God, not with a defense of His existence.

One of the realities of the Christian faith is that you simply assume God. Perhaps that is faith – moving to an assumption of God for who He is. But it is more than this. It is the understanding of God’s bigger story, understanding His bigger purpose, revealed to us in His Word. These things substantiated an appreciation in me that brought meaning to the world, and to me.

This bringing of meaning to the cosmos, bringing meaning to my own existence, to relationship, to a sense of purpose in my life, is that what you’re asking me about?

8. Jacobsen: It does point to one facet of it. I was thinking of philosophical arguments that people tend to bring forward for the existence of God in a Christian context. The one you pointed to: a literary argument.

So, the Bible assumes the premise of God’s existence. Then works within that context to provide narratives – history, metaphor, and allegory – to point to God in a literary sense. In other words, a poetic truth as opposed to a philosophical and logical truth.

Within philosophical and logical argumentation, what arguments stand out to you?

Derksen: For me, intelligence in the design is really significant to me. You have heard some other people talk about a watch needing a watchmaker. That is a very common and somewhat over-used illustration. For me, these are not simply literary arguments because they are also rooted in historical events. I think they are also rooted in science, in observable outcomes.

When I look at Creation and the cosmos, and the furthest reaches of the cosmos, the overwhelming physical, philosophical, and rational evidence is that of a Creator. To me, the flip side is rather unappealing; the potential for randomness in all of existence. The latter leaves me with more questions than with the assumption of purpose or design.

9. Jacobsen: Do other third or fourth options land in-between those two options, as probabilities as well, for you?

Derksen: I do not doubt that there is a spectrum of belief. There is a spectrum of appropriation of design, and we find people at one end of the spectrum or the other. I do not know if those things influence me, in particular. But I recognize their existence, certainly.

10. Jacobsen: Now, you are president and CEO of Vanguard College. How did you find out about the college? How did you become president? What are some of the task and responsibilities of the position?

Derksen: I was working in an inner-city mission in Winnipeg. We were looking after homeless, full-service organization with healthcare, dental, and transition services – finding homes and providing meals, job searching and preparation. It was a significant social organization.

I felt an inclination to return to something more akin to what I sensed in my initial calling in ministry. I was on a website of an Ontario church district, where Vanguard College had posted the ad for the position.

One thing led to another. We started conversing at about January 2015 and we ended up moving here early July 2015.

11. Jacobsen: How large is the college?

Derksen: The college has about 220 students on campus and about 70 students online.

12. Jacobsen: If you look at some of the demographics of other institutions in the country – of course, they tend to be much bigger, they are part of larger associations, of student unions for example?

Do Christian colleges and universities in Canada have such an association or organization with student unions or executives not on the student side?

Derksen: We do not have anything for student unions, other than student council. We are part of the Association for Biblical Higher Education, which is an accrediting body out of the United States. They accredit about 200 Christian colleges and universities. That is our accrediting body.

We are owned by and led by our own denomination. Our denomination in Canada has 4 Bible colleges for English and 1 for French. We are not part of any association outside of faith-based ministry.

13. Jacobsen: If you survey students online and offline, what tends to be the appeal of a Christian college to them? What tend to be some of the concerns for those students?

Derksen: A number of things. At times, simple geography is relevant because we operate close to where they live. For others, it is a sense of calling in their life and this becomes a reasonable step to fulfill that calling, immersing themselves in the study of God and His Word. They come here to immerse themselves in a Christian community.

Students come to Vanguard and find people to invest in them personally to invest in them, to help them grow as people, to teach them, and mentor them. We approach the education mandate very holistically in terms of who they are as people.

They will probably get more attention and personal interest at a college like ours, which is a smaller college. It tends to be much more personal than if they would go to a larger institution.

14. Jacobsen: What are some other of the appeals or services in a Christian college or university that students might not get if they go to a more mainstream, secular institution? Not only those that tend to be much larger.

Derksen: They will find a commonness in purpose. They will be reintroduced or have reinforced for them the concept of the metanarrative which post-modernism has probably taken away from them or, at least influenced them negatively.

What I mean by that, we believe in God. We believe in God’s purposes. We believe that he has revealed Himself and those purposes to us. There is a real sense of regaining a sense of mission in their life.

The ability to find a purpose for themselves – not only in a global and corporate perspective, but from an individual perspective. That they are meaningful in this larger story. They find a purpose beyond themselves in this journey. “It is not all about me.”

15. Jacobsen: What is the main certification at Vanguard College?

Derksen: We grant degrees and certificates and diplomas – 1-year, 3-year, and 4-year. They are accredited. We are accredited with the ABHE, The Association for Biblical Higher Education. We are a degree-granting institution by a Charter of the province of Alberta.

The bigger piece that we give to students is the ability to be credentialed for ministry in a variety of denominations, and for a variety of different ministry roles.

16. Jacobsen: What is the most popular one?

Derksen: Probably, it is our own, because we draw students from our churches across the country. This year, I think we have about 13 different denominations represented at the college.

17. Jacobsen: Oh wow. Looking forward, what are the hopes for growth, building connections with local communities, and so on, of Vanguard College?

Derksen: Part of what we believe is that, we also need to be good citizens in our world. That is a very vast and diverse application. That we take very seriously. We believe that we need to be good neighbours, good environmental stewards: ultimately a good and redemptive presence for the gospel in the world.

We believe that we need to be good personal and corporate citizens. We believe that we need to be good political citizens. So, we do not simply train people for ministry. We want to train somebody to make a meaningful difference in whatever trajectory of life on which they embark.

Whether they become an IT professional, a journeymen carpenter, or a physician, we want to add value from a Christian perspective. We want to pay attention to our traditions. We want people to be very meaningful citizens in the world today.

We want people to be connected to the community. We are always looking for people to be better connected to our community. For instance, we have an inner city school close to the college. There are many first-generation Canadians in the school, and many of them are around poverty line. They do not have Christmas in the home. They do not do birthday parties. So we do Christmas events. We bring gifts for the kids in the school. That is one example where we care about the community and the people in our community.

We do not want to be thinkers alone. We want to be practitioners of the gospel. To quote Jesus, we want to be salt and light in our world.

18. Jacobsen: International human rights point to a freedom of belief and freedom of religion. As well, the implication being freedom from religion from the non-religious, e.g. atheists, agnostics, humanists, and so on.

Derksen: Certainly.

19. Jacobsen: For those religious and non-religious communities via formal definitions, what is the benefit of living in Canada where the freedom to religion and freedom of belief are for the most part respected? How does this become a core value that most Canadians value and should value going into the future?

Derksen: I think it is easy to define when we look at places where that is not a value. There are places, certainly, where freedom of (or from) religion is not a value. Having the ability to think the way that we would like to think, and to conduct ourselves according to whatever our standard of behaviour is or isn’t, is also always tempered by laws defined for the good of the whole.

There is always a tension between individual rights and the rights of the larger group. Canada, so far – though I think this is changing a little bit, has walked that balance fairly well in the past. The country had a much stronger Christian influence at its founding and in its early years, probably up to the end of the Second World War.

The Christian framework was more normative than it is right now. It is quite clear that we have moved from a Christian country to a secular country.

People, deep down, want the right of individual to believe what they want and to live the life that they want. That is something that has been engrained in us since our European ancestry. I am not sure if I answered the question.

20. Jacobsen: You are nudging to a full answer. We have a country with a Christian culture, which transitioned to a secular culture. But in that transition, there has been a respect for one person’s right to believe a faith and another person’s right to not believe a faith. Then there is a tension.

Derksen: There is a tension there. I think that will increase in the future, in the years to come. I think we will continue to transition to a more thoroughly secular country. So, from a Biblical historical point of view, Scott, as Christians we will inevitably move towards the social environment and political context of what the first century church looked like.

Rome determined the dominant culture at the birth of the Christian church. It swallowed up everyone around it. Christianity was formed and birthed in that context. It really found its phenomenal initial impetus in an environment quite hostile to it. That is still a reality in many parts of the world.

My perception, Scott, is that while we are secularizing. I see a growing volume of antagonism to Christianity. It doesn’t really matter if it should or shouldn’t be. I think that is the reality of it.

As a Christian, I am interested to know why. I do not want my faith to be offensive to people. I don’t want the way I live my life to portray my faith as an offensive faith. Now sometimes people are simply offended by ideas and values in and of themselves.

We as Christians cannot really help that at all. But with Christianity as a whole dismissed by a culture, I am always curious as to why that trend is happening. What am I not seeing that I need to be seeing? Have we as a church, as a Christian community, not done a very good job communicating what we are and where we are going, and why we think this way? Perhaps people around us truly do not know what we are all about.

Is this marginalization based on perceptions of Christianity that aren’t substantiated by anything within the Christian community, but are simply the perceptions of people? Are things done, said, and advanced by segments of the church that have been bad advertising for the church?

I suspect all of those things, to a degree, have happened, but I also think that being a Christian, today, is not something to be ashamed about. It is not something that we need to hide from, to be defensive about.

The Christian faith has had a tremendous impact on the world starting hospitals, starting schools, advocating for the abolition of slavery, for the rights of women, serving prisoners incarcerated, advancing education, and even being a check on rampant capitalism and consumerism.

Christianity has been a very strong influence in some admirable developments in our culture and in our society. That is our actual historical record. I think Christianity continues to want to be that kind of an influence in our world, but I think we have our work cut out for us. Christianity is not just a religion for the soul. It is an influence and voice for the poor, the outcast, the marginalized.

21. Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Rev. Derksen.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] President & CEO, Vanguard College; Former Chartered Accountant, KPMG (Winnipeg).

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 22, 2018 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/derksen-vanguard; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Certificate, Theological Studies, Columbia Bible College; B.G.S., Brandon University; M. Div., Providence Theology Seminary.

 

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Interview with Rev. Eric Derksen [Online].June 2018; 17(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/derksen-vanguard.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, June 22). Interview with Rev. Eric Derksen. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/derksen-vanguard.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Interview with Rev. Eric Derksen. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A, June. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/derksen-vanguard>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “Interview with Rev. Eric Derksen.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/derksen-vanguard.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Interview with Rev. Eric Derksen.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A (June 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/derksen-vanguard.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Interview with Rev. Eric Derksen‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/derksen-vanguard>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Interview with Rev. Eric Derksen‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/derksen-vanguard.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Interview with Rev. Eric Derksen.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 17.A (2018):June. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/derksen-vanguard>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Interview with Rev. Eric Derksen [Internet]. (2018, June; 17(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/derksen-vanguard.

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In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-06-22

Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Dr. Claus D. Volko and Rick Rosner on “The Nature of Intelligence” (Part Four)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 17.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Thirteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: June 22, 2018

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,570

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Rick Rosner and I conduct a conversational series entitled Ask A Genius on a variety of subjects through In-Sight Publishing on the personal and professional website for Rick. Rick exists on the World Genius Directory listing as the world’s second highest IQ at 192 based on several ultra-high IQ tests scores developed by independent psychometricians. Dipl.-Ing Dr. Claus D. Volko, B.Sc., earned a score at 172, on the Equally Normed Numerical Derivation Tests (ENNDT) by Marco Ripà and Gaetano Morelli. Both scores on a standard deviation of 15. A sigma of ~6.13 for Rick – a general intelligence rarity of 1 in 2,314,980,850 – and 4.80 for Claus – a general intelligence rarity of 1 in 1,258,887. Of course, if a higher general intelligence score, then the greater the variability in, and margin of error in, the general intelligence scores because of the greater rarity in the population. This amounts to a joint interview or conversation with Dr. Claus Volko, Rick Rosner, and myself on the “The Nature of Intelligence.”

Keywords: AI, Claus Volko, consciousness, human, intelligence, metaphysics, Nature, Rick Rosner, Scott Douglas Jacobsen.

Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Dr. Claus D. Volko and Rick Rosner on “The Nature of Intelligence” (Part Four)[1],[2],[3],[4]

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: With everything, we could continue forever. However, the discussion started on January 25, 2017 with an email from me. In other words, that seems like a long time for the discussion to come to fruition at this point. Maybe, we can close.

We typed about artificial intelligence, human intelligence, intelligence, and the relationship with mathematics and metaphysics. This kept the conversation forward into consciousness. If I take the summaries from before and include some new ones, and if I bring these into statements rather than points, these may help with the final questions from me.

Human intelligence and artificial intelligence amount to two distinct but overlapping forms of information processing. Human intelligence has strength in pattern recognition and novel idea production. Novel idea production may need more than computation alone. Artificial intelligence has strengths in data storage and speed. Intelligence relates more to efficiency than speed. Intelligence encapsulates both human intelligence and artificial intelligence. Theories of intelligence fail and succeed in different areas. IQ, or general intelligence tests and scores, predict educational success.

In near future, artificial intelligence will remain narrow. Neural networks and machine learning will continue to characterize the development of artificial intelligence. Media will continue to misrepresent the future of artificial intelligence and people. In far future, general artificial intelligence may emerge. Narrow artificial intelligence will exist more than general artificial intelligence. These technology trends may lead to a planet-spanning data processor.

Comprehension of the brain could explain human intelligence without consciousness. This may help create human intelligence in computers. Consciousness may require more than physical and natural explanations. “More than physical or natural explanations” leads to metaphysics. A natural and physical theory, or algorithm, could explain human intelligence. However, for consciousness and intelligence in general, metaphysics seems necessary.

What barriers – e.g., methodology, epistemology, academic bureaucracy, limitations in general intelligence, personality flaws in lack of persistence or conscientiousness, hindrance of creativity from various means, inadequate technological tools, insufficient evidence, and so on – may exist to the discovery of the explanatory framework?

If any of the listed examples, can you elaborate, please? What scientific discoveries and technological capabilities hint at the emergence of a theoretical framework for these more general comprehensions of intelligence writ large?

Once these come to the fore, on the assumption the natural philosophy and philosophy provide the basis in the future, how might influence the perspective on the nature of human intelligence and, subsequently, human life?

Why would these discoveries influence the notion of personhood for human beings and artificial life seen in better representations of science fiction? Claus, you are a theist. Rick, you follow, more or less, Reformed Judaism, which implies a God. Final question, why would the natural and physical explanations for human intelligence and artificial intelligence, and the eventual framework for consciousness and intelligence in general, align with a theistic view of the world?

Dipl.-Ing. Dr. Claus D. Volko, B.Sc.: I think that all the things you mentioned can be barriers hindering the discovery of the explanatory framework. I especially think that certain tabus that are widespread in our Western societies prevent thinkers and researchers from really questioning what is considered established knowledge, having quasi-dogmatic status. I am quite ambivalent about the “skeptics” movement, for instance. On the one hand, it may be true that many people are uncritical of pseudoscience and esoterics, and so it might be a good idea to make them aware of the limitations of these approaches and explain why the scientific method is more credible. On the other hand, adherents of the “skeptics” movement sometimes fail to see the limitations of science itself, and fail to be equally “skeptic” about science as they are about pseudoscience.

To me it seems real progress is not coming from mainstream science but from fringe groups that are not afraid of questioning or even rejecting scientific dogmata and “thinking out of the box”. I would like to direct your attention to the aforementioned “Triadic Distinction Dimensional Vortical Paradigm” invented by Drs. Neppe and Close and the “Cognitive-Theoretic Model of the Universe” by Christopher Langan. Admittedly, I have not studied them in detail yet and am thus not able to rate their credibility. But at least they seem to be attempts that go into the right direction.

Both Drs. Neppe and Close and Christopher Langan happen to consider themselves theists. Actually the terms atheist and theist may be a bit misleading. While Drs. Neppe and Close and Christopher Langan may perceive themselves as theists primarily due to their religious upbringing and their motivation for inventing “theories of everything” that admit the existence of some sort of “deity” may be due to this as well, I was not brought up in a religious fashion. Yet I feel awkward about calling myself an atheist and have decided some time ago to identify myself with “theism”. In my case, it is not that I believe in any God persona bearing resemblance to man, but that I simply assume there to be things that can be considered “divine”, or “divine forces”, which cannot be explained by a naturalist or physicalist approach alone. This view is actually rooted in my own “childhood religion” which I invented as a young boy. Nota bene, this does not mean that there will never be any explanation for these “divine forces” that might be considered “rational” by a large proportion of humanity.

Actually I tend to believe that thanks to backpropagation and deep learning, we are currently experiencing a true revolution in domain-specific artificial intelligence, while it might still take at least yet another revolution until what people such as Ray Kurzweil or Max Tegmark call “Artificial General Intelligence” will arrive. Another technology that is going to have a big impact in the next couple of years is gene editing (CRISPR/Cas9). Eventually it might lead to “designer babies”; this is primarily a matter of legislation, since currently it is outlawed in most Western countries to genetically modify human embryos. Moreover, 3D printing will revolutionize the way things are manufactured. Quantum computing is still more fiction than science, although it has also made some progress in the past years. I think it is these technologies that will shape the world the most in the next ten years. I myself have also been working on a theoretical framework for an alternative to treating bacterial infections with antibiotics, keeping the bacteria alive instead of killing them, but reprogramming them (converting them from “parasites” to “symbionts”; that is why I am calling my framework “Symbiont Conversion Theory”). This might evolve to a new trend in medicine and it might solve a great problem as physicians are to an increasing extent confronted with “superbugs” that are resistant against many different sorts of antibiotics. My theory also concerns cancer treatment, since cancer cells can themselves be considered parasites that could possibly be converted into symbionts.

Rosner: You say that my thinking aligned with Reformed Judaism. To some extent, that is right. Nobody knows what Reformed Judaism thinks about anything. It is so reformed that is has no philosophical underpinning.

My actual thinking is that the model of consciousness being an inevitable and unavoidable aspect high-level information processing. That is something I subscribe or ascribe to. With my limited imagination, I cannot imagine any other system of existence, except for things being entangled with high-level information processing and with consciousness almost always being associated with that.

It means that existence, including the universe, is lousy with or peppered or speckled with consciousnesses, but with no consciousness or no entity having absolute god-like powers. But with powerful entities being able to do all sorts of stuff, including, at some level, the ability to create little universes.

But that every entity is subject to the rules of existence, which include the rules of consciousness and information processing. So, the structures of thought and information processing are replicated or peppered throughout the universe and embodied in the universe itself, in my thinking, but with omnipotence not being a thing.

Nobody gets to be omnipotent. Nobody gets to be a God-god. Entities may be god-like because they have been around so long and incorporate so much information-processing power, so that they are vastly more powerful than we are. But they are still subject to the principles of existence.

So, throughout history, people had a pretty stable idea of what makes a person. A person is somebody who is a body with a brain and where everything that brain thinks about is pertinent to that person, and is a reaction to that person’s sensory input plus the information processing that goes on in the brain plus what philosophy you adhere to – some transcendent mind stuff.

But everything is personal to that person. Everybody’s thoughts are relevant to that person and locked into the processes going on in their skull with the possibility of some addition of a personal mind in some other realm helping things out.

Now, more and more people do not believe in that other realm. More and more people believe that everything that happens can be explained by what happens in the brain. Everything relating to personhood is linked to an individual brain.

That is going to get its ass kicked in the next few centuries as information processing is able to move out of individual brains and then we get to link up. That processing has already been going on to a – not great extent because we do not have really any brain device interfaces beyond our five senses yet – decent extent because the relationships with our devices or with other people as mediated through our devices are much more informationally intense.

Much more information is being exchanged among people and among people and their devices now than ever before. Information processing will, eventually, not be isolated in individual brains and, instead, will become distributive, mutable, changeable, from moment-to-moment and with that the notion of discrete personhood will be eroded.

When we’re all linked together and thinking together and we’re spitting out tasked consciousnesses and AIs for specific tasks, budding them off and sending them off and then bringing them back in and integrating them again, it is going to look like a big crazy lava lamp rather than marbles of individual awarenesses locked into individual skulls.

Those barriers will come down. It will look like a lava lamp with people merging and unmerging and then importance of individual consciousness declining as we become part of this global thought cloud, which isn’t to say that we’re going to live in some dictatorship of thought.

The story that sums this up the best is I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream by Harlan Ellison, where one giant artificial consciousness, robot brain, has taken over the world and is taking people prisoner and torturing them 24/7 for its own perverse amusement.

That is the most dystopian version of a worldwide thought cloud taking over and oppressing everybody. Instead, the worldwide thought cloud will, for the most part, set individual consciousnesses free to mash up with other consciousnesses.

It sounds scary. But it is like everything else, driven by market forces. By the time every aspect gets to us. It will be made grubby by capitalism. Nothing ever hits us as pure wonder because it takes a while to get to us, and then it comes in the form of being offered by T-Mobile.

The barriers to understanding consciousness and the other context of information processing, which encompasses the business of the entire universe – the barriers to looking at that stuff and getting it right – are that it has been considered a super hard problem for thousands of years and everybody’s got it wrong for thousands of years, to the point where two people do not mean the same thing when they talk about consciousness.

When people talk about a car or a dog, there might be some small issues needing clarification. When one person talks about a car, they may be including truck. That could be cleared up with a conversation between people, maybe in a legislature when trying to figure out what to do with driverless vehicles.

The idea of “car” is easily clarified. The idea of “consciousness” can mean a gazillion different things. People tend not to bother with it. To even bring up consciousness has, for a couple hundred years, made people wary that you may hear some flaky astrological theory of the vibes of stuff, and how trees and rocks have their own awareness; consciousness has been associated with a lot off garbage thinking and unclear thinking.

Also, as a more philosophical level, it has been thought of as something too hard to figure out, to the point that in the 1930s psychologists or people looking in the field of brain performance in psychology decided to do without any theorizing altogether and then invented Behaviorism.

It said, “We are not going to think about it. We are going to consider the brain a black box. Then we will consider anything coming out of the brain as not thinking but reflexes.” So, the barriers, historically, have been that it is too hard of a problem and people had all sorts of unclear and wrong ideas about what it is.

A third things is that people did not have the experiential background to properly deal with consciousness and frameworks for information processing. Information Theory didn’t come around until Claude Shannon in the 1940s.

I think part two of the questions about what are some hints for going after it now. The big deal now is that we live in a or are in an ocean of information processing now. At least, when we weren’t in an obvious way before, maybe 30 years ago; now, everybody walks about with a super powerful information processor in their hand.

We get to watch the real-time operation of high-powered information processing devices. Everybody has a better idea of how all this stuff works because information-processing is basically the biggest industry in the world in the world right now and will continue to be; it will suck up more and more parts of our lives

There are people working things. We will have a biotech revolution that will be the application of high powered information processing technology to the systems of the human body. Everybody, now, has a better idea of how consciousness works because we see how our devices work and approach tasks.

The analogies are not perfect but they are better than what people had in the 19th century or in the BC years. We have all these analogies via our devices that are very powerful in helping us understand how our minds work with the switching from app to app being similar to switching from focus to focus, from driving and the light or the asshole in front of you when he/she slams on their breaks.

Or what is more common now, the times when people come to a near stop when everyone is texting. Consciousness becomes solvable because we have the technology and we have the experience to go after consciousness now.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunities and your times, Claus and Rick.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Dipl.-Ing. Dr. Claus D. Volko, B.Sc.: “I was born in 1983 in Vienna, Austria, Europe. My father wanted me to become a doctor while I was more interested in computers in my youth. After teaching myself to program when I was eight, I started editing an electronic magazine at age twelve and kept spending almost my entire sparetime on it – Hugi Magazine.

Upon graduation from high school, I studied medicine and computer science in parallel. In the end I became a software developer who occasionally participated in medical research projects as a leisure activity.

I am also the maintainer of the website 21st Century Headlines where I try to give interested readers an up-to-date overview of current trends in science and technology, especially biomedical sciences, computers and physics, and I recently founded the Web Portal on Computational Biology. I think there is no doubt I am a versatile mind and a true polymath.”

Rick G. Rosner: “According to semi-reputable sources, Rick Rosner has the world’s second-highest IQ. He earned 12 years of college credit in less than a year and graduated with the equivalent of 8 majors. He has received 8 Writer’s Guild Award and Emmy nominations, and was named 2013 North American Genius of the Year by The World Genius Registry.

He has written for Remote Control, Crank Yankers, The Man Show, The Emmy Awards, The Grammy Awards, and Jimmy Kimmel Live!. He has also worked as a stripper, a bouncer, a roller-skating waiter, and a nude model. In a TV commercial, Domino’s Pizza named him the World’s Smartest Man. He was also named Best Bouncer in the Denver Area by Westwood Magazine.

He spent the disco era as an undercover high school student. 25 years as a bar bouncer, American fake ID-catcher, 25+ years as a stripper, and nude art model, and nearly 30 years as a writer for more than 2,500 hours of network television.

He lost on Jeopardy!, sued Who Wants to Be a Millionaire over a bad question, and lost the lawsuit. He spent 35+ years on a modified version of Big Bang Theory. Now, he mostly sits around tweeting in a towel. He lives in Los Angeles, California with his wife and daughter.

You can send an email or a direct message via Twitter, or find him on LinkedIn, or see him on YouTube.”

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 22, 2018 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/claus-and-rosner-four; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Dr. Claus Volko and Rick Rosner on “The Nature of Intelligence” (Part Four)  [Online].June 2018; 17(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/claus-and-rosner-four.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, June 22). Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Dr. Claus Volko and Rick Rosner on “The Nature of Intelligence” (Part Four). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/claus-and-rosner-four.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Ask A Genius (or Two):  Conversation with Dr. Claus Volko and Rick Rosner on “The Nature of Intelligence” (Part Four). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A, June. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/claus-and-rosner-four>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Dr. Claus Volko and Rick Rosner on “The Nature of Intelligence” (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/claus-and-rosner-four.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Dr. Claus Volko and Rick Rosner on “The Nature of Intelligence” (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A (June 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/claus-and-rosner-four.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Dr. Claus Volko and Rick Rosner on “The Nature of Intelligence” (Part Four)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/claus-and-rosner-four>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Dr. Claus Volko and Rick Rosner on “The Nature of Intelligence” (Part Four)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/claus-and-rosner-four.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Dr. Claus Volko and Rick Rosner on “The Nature of Intelligence” (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 17.A (2018):June. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/claus-and-rosner-four>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Dr. Claus Volko and Rick Rosner on “The Nature of Intelligence” (Part Four) [Internet]. (2018, June; 17(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/claus-and-rosner-four.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

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© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-06-15

Interview with the Rt. Hon. Paul Martin

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 17.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Thirteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: June 15, 2018

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,538

ISSN 2369-6885

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Abstract 

The Rt. Hon. Paul Martin is a Former Minister of Finance (1993-2002) and a Former Prime Minister of Canada (2003-2006) for the Government of Canada. Also, Martin is the Founder of the Martin Family Initiative (MFI). He discusses: the inspiration for starting the MFI; the wider determinants of individual Indigenous wellbeing; better student outcomes and better community outcomes; building and maintaining relationships with Indigenous communities through MFI; the impact of the MFI pilot programs; and interventions from the MFI and Indigenous communities to close health and educational gaps between Indigenous and non-Indigenous peoples.

Keywords: Canada, Government of Canada, Indigenous, Martin Family Initiative, Minister of Finance, Paul Martin.

Interview with the Rt. Hon. Paul Martin: Former Prime Minister, Government of Canada; Founder, Martin Family Initiative[1],[2],[3],[4]

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: The Martin Family Initiative focuses on ways to better support and provide for the educational needs of the Indigenous population in Canada. What inspired you to start the MFI?

Rt. Hon. Paul Martin: When I was about 19, I worked as a deckhand on the tug barges on the Mackenzie River. All of the young men that I worked with were either Inuit, Métis or First Nations. We formed great friendships living and working together 24/7. However, these hardworking and intelligent guys had a certain melancholy about them, which I didn’t understand until I learned about residential schools. This experience has stuck with me ever since.

That is one of the reasons why, when I became prime minister, I incorporated a smudging ceremony into my swearing-in process. It was also why I brought the First Nations, Métis and the Inuit together with the territories and provinces to discuss what became the Kelowna Accord and why we booked $5 billion in new funding for healthcare, housing and education. I believe that if the government that followed mine had carried through with the Kelowna framework we would be 10 years ahead of where we are now in terms of the vast range of social programs for Indigenous people.

It is also why when I stepped down from government I focused on the area that could give Indigenous people the biggest step ahead, which is education.

2. Jacobsen: MFI engages with the wider determinants of an individual Indigenous learner’s life, such health and wellbeing. Can you talk about these factors?

Martin: The wider determinants of education are health and early childhood wellbeing, which is the focus of our newest program. Canadian society does better than many countries in a number of areas because of our strengths in these areas.

Fundamentally, to deny Indigenous people the same benefits that have allowed others to progress in Canada is morally wrong and economically backward.

3. Jacobsen: How do better student outcomes make better community outcomes?

Martin: If you look at the history of the world, education – that is to say learning from previous generations, asking what the world is all about, where it has been and where it is going – is the foundation of a person life.

At the root of all progress is the education of the young, who benefit from the learning of those who came before them and who in turn develop new learning from which their children benefit.

4. Jacobsen: Why is building and maintaining relationships with Indigenous communities an important part of MFI’s approach?

Martin: The essence of reconciliation is trust and the foundation on which our future relationships will be based is partnership. We must learn to understand each other more and more.

5. Jacobsen: What impact have MFI’s pilot programs had? What are your long-term goals for the next 2, 5 and 25 years?

Martin:  I will give you an example from one of our programs. Research shows that if you cannot read and write by the end of Grade 3, your chances of graduating from high school are greatly diminished. Faced with the fact that due to a lack of proper funding the literacy numbers in many reserve schools are lower than they are in public schools, we started a 5-year literacy program in two schools in southwestern Ontario. By the end of the fifth year, 81% of the kids could read and write (up from 13% before the program and higher than the provincial average of 78%).

We also have an entrepreneurship course for Grade 11 and Grade 12 students, which teaches hands-on business principles to Indigenous students within the context of their communities, traditions and culture. It has been a huge success. We are now in 42 schools across the country and over 3,500 students have taken the courses.

The fact of the matter is that the consequences of the residential schools and the underfunding of Indigenous education in the last 50 years have caused enormous harm. We are trying to turn that around in partnership with the First Nations, Métis and the Inuit. It is showing real results. The more Canadians work on partnerships with Indigenous people then the better off we are all going to be.

In the next 2, 5 and 25 years our work will continue with the same approach. We develop programs with Indigenous partners as communities identify their needs. In the long term, we want to work ourselves out of a job. Only when Indigenous children and youth across Canada have the same opportunities as other Canadians will we have succeeded.

6. Jacobsen: With these kinds of interventions from MFI and Indigenous communities, how long will it take to close the gaps in health and educational outcomes?

Martin: Decent healthcare is an essential determinant of a good education, just as a decent education is an essential determinant of good healthcare.

We have to go beyond education in its strict definition. One of our newest initiatives targets the point directly. It is an early childhood program. Essentially, its purpose is to ensure that expectant and new mothers and their children are supported in their health, wellbeing and early childhood development.

In the Early Years program, primary caregivers – mothers, fathers and other family members – gain a better understanding of their children’s important developmental progress. The program supports them in their roles as their children’s first teachers. They are also supported in social service navigation, so that they might fully avail of services available to families.

The initial pilot program will function as a proof of principle that we hope will be eventually be taken to scale across the country.

7. Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Mr. Martin.

Martin: You’re welcome.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Founder, Martin Family Initiative; Former Prime Minister (2003-2006), Government of Canada; Former Minister of Finance (1993-2002), Government of Canada.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 15, 2018 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/claus-and-volko-three; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] B.A., History and Philosophy (1961), University of Toronto (St. Michael’s College); LL.B. (1964), Law, University of Toronto.

[4] Image Credit: Rt. Hon. Paul Martin.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Interview with the Rt. Hon. Paul Martin: Former Prime Minister, Government of Canada; Founder, Martin Family Initiative [Online].June 2018; 17(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/paul-martin.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, June 15). Interview with the Rt. Hon. Paul Martin: Former Prime Minister, Government of Canada; Founder, Martin Family Initiative. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/paul-martin.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Interview with the Rt. Hon. Paul Martin: Former Prime Minister, Government of Canada; Founder, Martin Family Initiative. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A, June. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/paul-martin>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “Interview with the Rt. Hon. Paul Martin: Former Prime Minister, Government of Canada; Founder, Martin Family Initiative.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/paul-martin.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Interview with the Rt. Hon. Paul Martin: Former Prime Minister, Government of Canada; Founder, Martin Family Initiative.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A (June 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/paul-martin.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Interview with the Rt. Hon. Paul Martin: Former Prime Minister, Government of Canada; Founder, Martin Family Initiative‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/paul-martin>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Interview with the Rt. Hon. Paul Martin: Former Prime Minister, Government of Canada; Founder, Martin Family Initiative‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/paul-martin.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Interview with the Rt. Hon. Paul Martin: Former Prime Minister, Government of Canada; Founder, Martin Family Initiative.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 17.A (2018):June. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/paul-martin>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Interview with the Rt. Hon. Paul Martin: Former Prime Minister, Government of Canada; Founder, Martin Family Initiative [Internet]. (2018, June; 17(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/paul-martin.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2018-06-15

Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Dr. Claus D. Volko and Rick Rosner on “The Nature of Intelligence” (Part Three)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 17.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Thirteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: June 15, 2018

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 10,211

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Rick Rosner and I conduct a conversational series entitled Ask A Genius on a variety of subjects through In-Sight Publishing on the personal and professional website for Rick. Rick exists on the World Genius Directory listing as the world’s second highest IQ at 192 based on several ultra-high IQ tests scores developed by independent psychometricians. Dipl.-Ing Dr. Claus D. Volko, B.Sc., earned a score at 172, on the Equally Normed Numerical Derivation Tests (ENNDT) by Marco Ripà and Gaetano Morelli. Both scores on a standard deviation of 15. A sigma of ~6.13 for Rick – a general intelligence rarity of 1 in 2,314,980,850 – and 4.80 for Claus – a general intelligence rarity of 1 in 1,258,887. Of course, if a higher general intelligence score, then the greater the variability in, and margin of error in, the general intelligence scores because of the greater rarity in the population. This amounts to a joint interview or conversation with Dr. Claus Volko, Rick Rosner, and myself on the “The Nature of Intelligence.”

Keywords: AI, Claus Volko, consciousness, human, intelligence, Nature, Rick Rosner, Scott Douglas Jacobsen.

Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Dr. Claus D. Volko and Rick Rosner on “The Nature of Intelligence” (Part Three)[1],[2],[3],[4]

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Thank you for the thoughtful and thorough responses, both of you. It is a treat.

Perhaps, based on reflection from the responses from Claus, the nature of consciousness may not need explanation to know the functional basis of human intelligence, where the hows for the information processing of the human brain would account for human intelligence on a functional level without the whys.

The whys, the larger explanatory structure, would require an expanded conversation on human consciousness, consciousness generally, and, maybe, the metaphysics mentioned in the responses of Claus.

The conversation leads to some preliminary pivots and recaps in the conversation for me. (Please bear with me, this will be repetitive.):

  • A large portion of artificial intelligence will remain narrow, in the near and middle future, in its function and less rich in the sub-system information exchange seen in the operations of the human nervous system.
  • Complex computations seen in artificial intelligences permits very complex information processes while these do not make them conscious. Consciousness may not amount to computations alone.
  • A planet-wide information-processing thought blob may mark the far future for us.
  • Hollywood gives misleading images of future people. Humans plus AI in the future may appear unlike us in surprising and unpredictable ways.
  • The dominant methodologies in Claus’s expert view remain neural networks tied to machine learning in the mainstream of the field’s studying these and similar phenomena.
  • Machines seem stronger than humans at massive data storage and rapid information retrieval. Intelligence does not equate to speed and relates more to efficiency.
  • The computational basis for the creation of novel ideas remains a difficult question to answer.
  • Different theories of intelligence abound with various degrees of success. Some theories of intelligence failed outright. IQ predicts educational success based on the personal experience of Claus.
  • The nature of intelligence seems bigger than and includes both artificial intelligence and human intelligence.
  • The knowledge of the workings of the brain could suffice in a functional explanation of human intelligence with zero coverage of human consciousness in the theory. The field of artificial life remains too inchoate to suffice on the issue of human intelligence.

This leads to the next stage of the discussion. The first on artificial intelligence. The second on human intelligence. The third prompted by Claus on a larger-than-physical or natural explanation, a metaphysical perspective.

External to and including physical and natural explanations, what about metaphysics?

If knowledge of the functional operations of the brain through some algorithm comes from the sciences relevant to its discovery and implementation in a digital substrate, then the algorithm may explain the processes of human intelligence while consciousness may remain an unsolved problem without explanations outside of the material or the physical, and the natural, as Claus noted with metaphysics.

In this, metaphysics may play a role in a theory of consciousness and of the brain (and human intelligence), especially of the brain and human intelligence if the aforementioned algorithm is incorporated into it.

Where the larger framework for the understanding of the hows of the brain within the physical sciences can derive more satisfactory explanations with an infusion of metaphysics, this leads to another line of questioning while remaining tight to the subject of the nature of (artificial and human) intelligence. I have three big interrelated questions on reflection.

What would comprise a metaphysical explanation for the human brain and intelligence? How would this metaphysical explanation of the human brain and intelligence incorporate the naturalist explanation of the human brain and intelligence?

Why would this metaphysical explanation be more satisfactory than a physicalist/materialist and naturalist explanation of the human brain and intelligence? (I apologize for my repetitions.)

Volko: Your summary of the debate so far is very good, well done. Regarding your questions: Well, as I said it is primarily the phenomenon of consciousness that seems to require a metaphysical explanation since it appears to be something that exists out of the physical world. By contrast, I do not think that human intelligence needs a metaphysical explanation. When it comes to making intelligent predictions, the human brain seems to be a computer based on biology. It is not that we do not understand how the human brain works at all. On the contrary, the fact that machine learning and neural networks work suggests that we might at least have a tiny, tiny clue about the actual workings of the human brain. Neural networks, after all, are based on several scientific hypotheses about how the human brain might work, such as Hebbian learning. Probably Geoffrey Hinton is right when he says that backpropagation might not be the algorithm employed by the human brain, although it has been proven to work quite well, but that does not mean that the researchers who believed that neural networks would model the human brain are totally wrong. I believe that the question how the human brain is able to make intelligent predictions will sooner or later be solved, at least sooner than the question what makes us conscious beings and what “we” actually are.

To my mind it is just the phenomenon of consciousness for which there will probably not be found any explanation by scientists who restrict themselves to naturalism or physicalism.

I myself have recently invented a metaphysical model of the human organism that is based on the view that there are three components which make a human being: the psyche, the body and the brain (where, when I am talking about the “brain”, I also imply the other components of the central nervous system and the endocrine system). While the body belongs to the physical world and the psyche to some sort of immaterial world that is hard to define, the brain, as a mediator between these two worlds, somehow belongs to both of these worlds at the same time. There might even be a component of the brain which anatomists cannot perceive since it is located in the “immaterial” world. Most of the rest of the paper which I have written about this model is based on the assumption that there is a symmetry between the psyche and the body, i. e. everything that applies to the body has an analogon with the psyche and vice versa. For instance, I deduce from these assumptions that not only does the body have metabolism, as we all know (eating, drinking, breathing,…), but that there is also a sort of metabolism related to the psyche, which is equally essential for life. This “metabolism” might be related to dreams, ideas, thoughts, and fantasy. We seem to be hunting for these “nutrients” during sleep and while “daydreaming” – that might even be the reason (or at least one of the reasons) why we sleep at all. After all, it is well-known that sleep deprivation over a certain period of time is fatal. Moreover, with this metaphysical model I also managed to explain Carl Gustav Jung’s personality theory as well as the “model of stress induced steroidal hormone cascade changes” and a couple of related scientific hypotheses my late friend and mentor Dr. Uwe Rohr and I came up with and published about a couple of years ago. Metaphysics is definitely not nonsense! I am aware that people who develop and publish about metaphysical ideas of their own are often viewed upon with suspicion, which is why many scientists avoid doing so, fearing that otherwise their career might be harmed, but to my mind, the problematic thing is not the people who develop these ideas but those who are intolerant against whoever and whatever deviates from the ideological beliefs of the mainstream. History has repeatedly shown to us that this attitude is not a good thing (thinking of Copernicus, Galilei, Bruno,…).

Rosner: It’s close to a fundamental principle of existence that simple, self-consistent systems are durable and common. For instance, numbers are highly self-consistent, simple in many ways, and fantastically common in their pertinence to the world. Just about any time you have a bunch of real-world objects, there is a specific number of objects in that bunch.

One-ness pervades the world – the idea that each thing, considered alone, is one thing – as does two-ness for groups of two things, and so on. As Godel proved, mathematics can never be proved to be entirely self-consistent, but math – particularly arithmetic – is self-consistent enough that it is one of the primary ways we define the world. Numbers, being simple, easy, and self-consistent, arise everywhere.

Similarly, there are simple systems for machine learning – for AI. I have very little knowledge of these systems. I can say they incorporate layered feedback, but I’m kind of BSing when I say it. However, I’m not BSing when I say that human-created, algorithm-based machine learning at micro levels is quite similar to human cognition at micro levels, because simple, effective systems arise again and again in a variety of contexts.

Evolution is opportunistic – it stumbles onto simple, durable systems, including those for information processing and learning. (Obviously, some heuristics will be better for specific types of information processing than others.) In a nutshell, machine learning and brain learning are convergent (with some task specificity).

For a very nice constructivist analysis of emotions, see Lisa Feldman Barrett’s How Emotions Are Made. It implies that world-modeling – predicting – is a massive do-it-yourself project in conjunction with blankish but imprintable brain strata and personal plus cultural experience.

Unlike Claus, my performance in school was all over the place. I had good years and bad years. I had close to a straight A record in high school. Until, I completely melted down over my inability to get a girlfriend, then my senior year was a lot of Fs.

It took me until age 31 to graduate from college because of extreme fecklessness. People should know feckless now because of the Samantha Bee versus Trump thing.

I suspect that consciousness is an inevitable consequence or aspect of sufficiently broadband information sharing within a self-consistent system. A system like our brains and like the universe itself, where every part of the system is at least roughly aware of every other part of the system.

That part of the awareness of the system Being aware of itself. That has, in the past, stood in for consciousness. That is erroneous. You can have a conscious system that is not conscious of itself. If you take the example of a security system, that watches over a set of warehouses with such high level information sharing and information processing, and receiving, and understanding of information.

That it is super conscious on what is going on in all of those warehouses. That system would not necessarily have to be aware of itself, as the thing that is observing. You would expect it to be somewhat aware of itself, of its cameras, of it self-monitoring to make sure that it is functioning properly.

But it wouldn’t have to be overly aware of what it is in comparison to its being highly conscious of the things going on in the warehouse. Consciousness is basically being so aware of a linked set of a ball of information. That is generally linked.

All the information in our consciousness is linked by being related to us. We are the consumer. All the information we consume and process is related because it is information that has come to us. Some of that information less highly entwined with other information.

For instance, a sitcom or watching of the first episode that you happened upon at random. The information in that sitcom. It doesn’t particularly pertain to us. It is linked to the rest of our consciousness because it is what we are watching at some point in the day.

Because we are experienced TV viewers. The whole thing, everything is roughly linked. Some things are more central to us than others. But it is it his ball of relevant or semi-relevant information. We are able to process that information from so many different angles.

We have so many different sub-modules that we are able to analyze and appreciate that information related to other stuff so thoroughly that it gives a feeling of well-established reality to what we are experiencing.

Somewhere in that sloppy description of consciousness is a more strict idea of consciousness. It is a broadband real-time sharing of information among systems that analyze that information to the extent that you experience a fully-fleshed reality.

Even that is a pretty loose definition of consciousness, that is still what consciousness is. It is not just the definition that is a little loose. Consciousness itself is not a strictly structured phenomenon. It is a phenomenon that arises where you have information thrown into a central hopper, when there are unconscious processes like walking and breathing, usually.

They do not become conscious. The more complicated or dramatic stuff gets thrown into a central hopper where it becomes part of your awareness. It is important enough that is becomes part of your consciousness and becomes available for analysis by all your sub-systems.

It is under the general principle that you need to be aware of your world and will suffer for jot being aware of it, even to the point of making fatal mistakes. If you drive, and if you look around at other drivers a lot to get pissed of a lot, like I do, you see quite a lot of drivers who are out of it to some extent.

It used to be that most of the drivers who I saw who seemed to be out of it had health issues. Either they were drugged up or they were so physically unhealthy that it was affecting their mental processing.

This was a wild and cynical guess. It was watching other drivers as they attempt to drive and seeing that they seem to be glazed over and not as present in the world as you would want other drivers to be.

Nowadays, they are out of it because of their digital devices. I am sure there are a lot of drugged up drivers, but they have demographically overwhelmed by people who think they can driver while texting – but are really severely hampered because their attention has been sucked into their devices. They do what I call half driving.

They approximate the behaviours of driving, but they drive 15 miles under the speed limit. The wander in and out of lanes. They stop three cars behind the stop bar at a light. They have a very crappy internal representation of their driving environment because their attention is elsewhere.

It illustrates the point because they are driving dangerously. It is not as dangerously as the people who drove when the predominant modes in the 70s were hauling; now, everyone, as I said, drives slowly and all our cars have 8 or 10 airbags in them, so the fatality has been dropping.

Anyway, information enters your central awareness because it demands attention in order to live safely and advantageously within the world. That process – I would assume under evolution – of the development of powerful consciousness has the potential to evolve again and again.

It offers the organism that possesses it such an advantage and because there is such sharing and processing of information. We see this in eyes. Eyes have evolved a bunch of separate times over the course of evolutionary history.

I do not know much about the evolution of consciousness or intelligence. However, it has evolved at least twice. Where we have super intelligent primates, which include us, there are super intelligent octopuses too.

They didn’t become smart at the same time or along the same lineage because octopuses evolved from molluscs, which are super dumb. Dumb to the point of I am not sure even if some of them have brains. I know starfish do not have brains.

I think molluscs may give up brains once they are situated some place. There be some strict principles as to what consciousness is, but I guess that they are not strict hardware rules for how to get to consciousness. You can get it a bunch of different ways.

I am shamefully ignorant about machine learning. Except it involves these various strata of feedback of loops, where when you get a good signal. Then you are achieving what you want to achieve. The linkages that help the system get closer to its objective.

Those linkages are strengthened. But I would guess that organically, and probably mechanically, there are quite a few ways to establish those feedback systems.

2. Jacobsen: You raise some points of intrigue. However, before discussion on the metaphysics point, I want to talk on a footnote point. You wrote, “…the problematic thing is not the people who develop these ideas but those who are intolerant against whoever and whatever deviates from the ideological beliefs of the mainstream.”

A straightforward statement with extensive meaning. From the perspective of an academic, e.g. tenured professor at an institution, what might prevent deviation from the mainstream?

From the view of a someone without academic protections, e.g. a student or a lay person, what might prevent deviation from the mainstream? Of course, the definition of “mainstream” does not confine itself to the academic alone, whether staff, administration, or students. Also, how may everyone break from the mainstream in order to facilitate creativity and novelty in thought when standard models of a system seem insufficient to solve the problems?

To metaphysics, what factors may comprise the sustenance of the psyche in the model proposed by Dr. Rohr and yourself? If Hebbian associative linkages, neural networks, backpropagation, and machine learning models help with comprehension of the workings of the brain, how might these physicalist and naturalist frameworks integrate with the aforementioned metaphysical model of the human organism with the psyche, body, and brain?

Volko: My general impression is that if you do not comply by the mainstream views, you risk having a hard time in life. The mainstream views are mostly defined by the government, the educational institutions, the media, and partly also by religious institutions. I have made the experience that many people are very intolerant against anything or anybody that does not fit in their views of the world. I even met some people who hated me for stating my opinion in an Internet forum because they did not share my views – note that I did not contradict a statement of theirs, but simply stated what I was thinking without knowing, and without being interested in what the views of these (self-important) people were. Once a German university professor told me that in Germany, for instance, you will not get employed by a state-owned company (e.g. a university) if you expressed certain views on the Internet which are incompatible with the official government doctrine (e.g., pro-eugenics views). In my opinion, this policy is by far the greater scandal than somebody stating pro-eugenics views in an Internet forum… I have to add that I have been somewhat spoilt since my mother was a teacher employed by the municipal government of the City of Vienna, and my father had a position at a privately-owned company that was also pretty secure. That’s why I realized only late that unless you are overwhelmingly rich, you are always dependent on the good will of other people. Even if you are a skilled worker and do your job well, your employer can sack you for some arbitrary reason, or, if you are a young adult who has not been employed yet, it might – if you have bad luck – even happen that you will never get employed and thus be dependent on your parents or on social welfare for the rest of your life… This does not only concern people from socially disadvantaged backgrounds, but people from all walks of life.

For this reason, some people might prefer to keep their mouths shut and never express their true views to the public. But that attitude would make me unhappy. I love the debate. It is something that is almost as vital for me as food. So that is why I often behave in a somewhat unreasonable manner and state openly what I think. As already mentioned, this has had the effect that there are quite a lot of people who don’t like me (well, the term “enemy” might be an overstatement, fortunately). In fact it has already happened once that somebody I was discussing with on the Internet contacted my employer and tried to damage my reputation. Fortunately my employer was so convinced of my abilities, and in need of them, that he was not impressed. As a matter of fact, I made a lot of effort during my student years to get to know as many intelligent people as possible so that I could broaden my (and their) horizon and also get to know views neither shared by my parents or contained in books or magazines I was reading. I made a lot of bad experiences, most of all with local people from Mensa Austria – they are among the worst people I’ve met, to be honest. Perhaps that is because requiring an IQ in the 98th percentile or higher is not a sufficient selection criterion. In fact, I have made far better experiences with people in societies with stricter selection criteria than Mensa, such as Infinity International Society, Global Genius Generation Group, and VeNuS Society. In any case, I have gotten to know a lot of people, and in the course of the time I have stopped communicating with those who seemed to have a bad character, so now I am mostly in touch with rational people of good nature, and I am quite happy with my situation. It hardly ever happens any more that I am misunderstood, that statements of mine are deliberately misinterpreted or placed out of context, that people react emotionally when I express a view they disagree with, etc.

To answer your questions, I do think that people working in academia are especially under pressure that everything they state in public more or less matches the views of the government and what is considered the “scientific mainstream”. If you are able to read German, you might in this context be interested in an article which the Austrian TV company ORF published a couple of years ago, the title being “Kein Jude, kein Linker, kein Positivist” (“No Jew, no left-winger, no positivist”). The article can be found at the URL http://sciencev2.orf.at/stories/1726786/index.html. It deals with the policy of Heinrich Drimmel, who served as a minister in the Austrian government for a long time, one of his areas of responsibility being the Austrian state-owned universities (note that until the beginning of the 21st century, there were no privately-owned universities in Austria). Mr Drimmel was a member of the Christian Democratic Party and he actively chose people with political views similar to his own for open positions at university. It was almost impossible to become a university professor in Austria if you were a Jew, a left-winger or an adherent of the positivist philosophy as long as he was in office (from 1946 until 1964). I was studying at university from 2001 to 2013 (I was studying for such a long period because I completed two independent graduate degrees, in medicine and computer science) and even during my days as a student, I had the impression that especially the medical university was dominated by members of the Christian Democratic Party and also that it was easier for young alumni to get a job at the university upon graduation if they were a member of this party or one of the organizations associated with it. This was especially hard for me as I had learned at high school to think more like a Social Democrat, as most teachers had been members of the Social Democratic Party or the Greens. In the end I rejected both Social Democracy and Christian Democracy and adopted views that could be classified as classical liberal or libertarian. As a matter of fact, there are quite a lot of people here in Austria who have made similar experiences as I have, and we founded a new political party devoted to classical liberalism a couple of years ago. The first time we tried to get into Austrian Parliament, in 2013, we succeeded at once. At least I am happy that there now is a party in parliament that more or less shares my views.

In fact, I believe that people not working in academia (including university graduates working in the private sector) have more freedom to disagree with the mainstream and develop their own ideologies since they cannot be made accountable for their publicly expressed opinions to the same degree as e.g. a university professor can be. A university professor delivering lectures in front of hundreds or thousands of students has to carefully watch what he or she is saying. After all, he or she is supposed to represent his or her subject of expertise and is expected only to state things that match the current “state of science”. By contrast, a person working in the private sector usually does not have such a large audience as a professor anyway. Moreover, for the evaluation of the job performance of a person working in the private sector, e.g. a software developer, other criteria are far more relevant than whether his or her opinion matches what is currently considered the scientific mainstream or the “politically correct” world view. Of course, if somebody works in the public sector, at a state-owned company, this situation might again be different.

Regarding metaphysics, I have recently written a paper called “The Synthesis of Metaphysics and Jungian Personality Theory”, which I published at my personal homepage (www.cdvolko.net). In this paper, I mentioned the scientific theory developed by Dr. Uwe Rohr and myself since it can be embedded in this metaphysical framework. Basically, we proposed that there are two types of steroidal hormones. One type adapts the organism to stress reactions. These hormones increase physical performance (temporarily) but more or less “shut down” the psyche, which may eventually lead to severe mental disorders. The other type adapts the organism to physical threats such as infectious agents or cancer. These hormones boost the immune system while temporarily decreasing the physical performance. This theory fits very well into my metaphysical framework, considering that there is a symmetry in the relations between the psyche and the brain on the one hand, and the brain and the body on the other. In other words, everything that applies to the body seems to have a correlate with the psyche and vice versa.

I see no problem in integrating scientific theories about the human brain, such as Hebbian learning, with my metaphysical model.

In general, I would like to encourage as many people as possible, especially intelligent people, to follow my example and develop their own worldviews instead of adapting themselves too much into the mainstream. This will not only enrich their own intellectual lives but also the intellectual lives of others.

Rosner: In general, you’re talking about the future of intelligence with your ten things. I read an article, recently. It was attacking the apocalyptic fears of Elon Musk and others about war with the robots – us vs. AI.

When you and I, Scott, started talking about this stuff 3 or 4 years ago, no one was worrying about AI on the horizon. I have been fairly heartened that some of these other billionaires have been talking about it.

This article attacks these fears by saying that all of these billionaires are afraid of AIs. They are behaving the way these billionaires do themselves, being viciously competitive in business. These guys have projected their business behavior onto future AI and are afraid of it.

They think that future AI may act like aggressive, predatory A-holes, basically. That makes for an interesting article. I think that those fears should be thrown up into the constellation of all possible hopes and fears for future AI.

Where I was trying to think of the right phrase, which isn’t, it is close: “The future with AI will be a perilous flowering.” All sorts of new forms of existence will come into being, which will be awesome and also hard to negotiate.

It will be hard. We will not be living in the world of 12th-century shoemakers. A shoemaker knows how his life is going to play out if he is lucky and does not get the Plague. He is going to make shoes until he dies at age 56.

As long as he makes shoes, and does not get embroiled in a war or bitten by a rat, or a flea on a rat, he has a pretty straightforward rest of his life. The future with the flowering of all this new stuff means that individual little conscious blips in the maelstrom of newness.

It is like a Cambrian explosion. The Cambrian explosion was after all the big dinosaurs got wiped out. I may have this wrong. The Yucatan meteorite wipes out the dinosaurs. It wipes out 90% of species.

I know I have this wrong. At various points in evolutionary history, there have been mass extinction events. At those points, life has evolved new strategies. It leads to these crazy flowerings that lead to all these new forms competing to find their niches.

What might happen in Cambrian explosion, which might take 80 million years, it will happen with an AI explosion that will occur in a century or two. All these crazy changes will take place on the scale of months and decades and within individual human lifetimes or lifespans.

It is like the shoemaker having to go from making shoes to podcasting to having his brain downloaded into a module to get sent to Alpha Centauri. Our individual lives, we will have to scramble.

We will have to scramble to find temporarily – we hope – ‘footing.’ Everyone will search out their islands of stability within this burgeoning world. It will be like now, but 50 times worse. Now, we do not wake up every morning.

It is like, “Crap! How am I going to get through the day with 80 apps on my phone?” There are still large degrees of stability within our lives. Smartphones have changed a lot of the flavor of daily life.

But we still do the same crap that we have all done. We shop for stuff. We eat. We sleep. We try to hook up. It is going to become more hectic and weird. Let me mention, we have been touching on the structure of thinking, intelligence, and consciousness.

I would like to bring up Bayesian logic and statistics. Bayesian statistics is something widely misunderstood, including by me. It doesn’t mean I can’t talk about it. It means how you order the world based on past experience and incorporation new information into that.

It is a fairly straightforward formula. Where I always think about it in terms of fake ID because I spent 25 years in bars trying to catch people with fake IDs at the door, my rough or general assumption about the frequency of fake IDs, which was based on long experience during the 80s and 90s mostly in popular, was that about 1 person in 90 would come to me with a fake ID.

What I would do, I would try to look at the person and the ID and then ask questions to put this person who is initially part of a group with a 1 in 90 fakenesses into a subgroup where almost nobody has a fake ID or almost everybody has a fake ID.

Then I would decide whether to let them in or not. For instance, I ask the person what their star sign or Zodiac sign is. If they do not know it, they enter a subgroup based on professional experience. Well over 90% of those people have a fake ID. Then I ask them what year they graduated high school.

If they get that wrong and do not know their sign, they enter a group where well over 99% of people have a fake ID. If the person did not look pretty young, I wouldn’t be asking them that question in the first place.

If they get those questions right and look over 27 or 28, then they go into a subgroup, where less than 1% or 1/10th of 1 % of people have a fake ID. Occasionally, I would still catch a person obviously still old enough using a fake ID.

Someone who lost their real ID and went back to using their fake ID. Or some crazy stuff, I asked a guy to write his name including his middle name. He misspells his middle name. I am like, “This is bullshit. It is your name.” He goes, “No, no, no, no, I was in a softball accident. I got hit in the head. I have got brain damage.”

I think, “Alright, yeah.” He goes away. 20 minutes later, he comes back with an inch-thick stack of medical documents showing he was in an accident. So, I brought him a pitcher of beer to add to his brain damage.

Another guy had a beautiful signature. Then when he signed it, it was an illegible scrawl. He said, “Dude!” He showed me his hand. He accidentally skied over the hand and severed the nerves. He has got these deep grooves over the top of his hand.

That subgroup of people. Occasionally, you find people who defy the group classifications. But it is a powerful tool because most people did not forget their ID or ski over their hand. There are two things with Bayesian logic.

One thing is the initial estimate based on life experience or instinct, or whatever, of what you think the landscape is. When I first started working in bars, since my job was to check for IDs, my assumption was a certain fraction of people were going to be bullshitting me based on the nature of the job.

That is a prior weighting that goes into Bayesian stuff. The rest of Bayesian stuff is using a formula based on either instinct or accumulated experience to put people into subgroups with each subgroup having a different probability for the event that you’re looking for.

It is a powerful way of classifying the world. It is done naturally in your brain. Your brain probably classifies the world in a bunch of other ways. Any way that is helping your brain will exploit given the economics of the brain.

The Bayesian considerations come into play, where your brain and millions of years of evolution of the brain. All this has developed this system of a somewhat rewireable information processing structure, which has these built-in Bayesian factors.

Your brain wants to rewire itself in view of new experiences. It is not a good strategy. It is not good for your brain to rewire itself completely every time something new happens. There is the weight of past experience and the thinness of new experience and the cost of rewiring.

It is all a Bayesian system of your brain, and evolution, trying to make the best of the equipment and the mental economics that it has to contend with. That is, the cost of running your information processing system.

When I talk about mental economics, I am talking about the limiting factors on our brain. Obviously, the rise of humans has proven that it is a good strategy to have a big brain. It might be even better to have bigger brains, but we are limited by how big of a brain you can squeeze out of the mom without killing the mom.

Our heads are as big as they can be to get out of the mom. The mom’s pelvis has to snap into two to make way for the head. The kid’s head, the plates of the skull have to overlap each other temporarily as they come through the birth canal squishing for a few minutes.

The brain or your noggin has to grow fantastically once it is out of the mom. Being born, it puts an upper limit on brain size. Energy considerations, your brain uses a huge amount of the calories that you consume.

If everybody is going to die because in the wild they cannot find enough calories to feed their brain, that is a crappy system. There are limiting factors. There are the informational factors. You are dumb if you keep rejiggering your brain as you pay attention to each leaf that falls into your path.

Also, and some other points, information processing including AI will get fantastically cheap, which means it will be annoyingly all over the place – largely market driven. If you can sell ten percent more refrigerators if they can talk to you, then they will talk to you?

You car keys will talk to you. A lot of things we would find ridiculous talking to us will talk to us. They will do things that we do not even think about or find ridiculous that are useful. Like objects will find themselves or talk to us, they will do things. 

Lost objects, they will find themselves. You can buy systems like that now. You can put RFI stickers on stuff that you lose all the time. You can have an app that helps you find all your frequently lost stuff. You can have an app in the future for that.

We will be annoyed. As AI and information processing gets cheap, consciousness will get cheap, which will lead to a loss of respect for human consciousness. Humans will still have pride of place. We will still be the king shits of the world.

We will be slightly less king shits. We will be hybrid forms of humans plus powerful forms of augmentation technology. They will be the new king shits and potentially the mean girls of the world. 

It will be a scramble to find islands of security and safety. It will be hard to keep your money if you do not move because of the fast economy. It will not be an economy to fully employ everybody. 

It may be needed to provide people with some free money, which drives conservatives crazy that anybody would get anything for free. But maybe, there is a utopia of the future, where everybody can plug into shared information processing processes and earn some money that way.

Just as likely as that, the world will run in all sorts of various automatic ways, which do not need the ability to do macrame. You might have to take some guaranteed minimum wage. Conservatives, like my buddy Lance, are worried about encroachment and the end of America with immigrants taking all our stuff.

I think there is more zero-sum thinking in conservatism than liberalism. I think history is on the side of things getting cheaper as automation and productivity continue to increase. Compared to 100 years ago, clothing and food cost 1/4 of what they did versus the average wage to the point where 2/3rds of Americans are overweight because food is cheap and delicious.

I predict a future of abundance, where science fiction makes all sorts of fantastic predictions. Things that will be awesome when they arrive. But when they arrive, they are beat-up, sucky, and grubby and made cheesy by market forces and advertising.

Still with some awesomeness left intact, Idiocracy shows a future where people are in some ways taken care of. But everybody is an idiot. All the crap they consume is crap. We will have a future of abundance. It will have a tinge of grubbiness and crappiness.

But it will also be awesome. One dumb example, there are all these tall skinny skyscrapers along 57th street in New York City for billionaires. They all look roughly the same. These tall glass buildings sticking up. 

Somebody put together an architectural plan or proposals for one of these things that would be gargoyles all the way up. It would be computer generated and computer created. You wouldn’t have to have craftsmen chipping away at marble or granite.

The gargoyles would be 3D printed and have this fantastically ornate 96-story building looming weirdly over 56th street. We will get a bunch of stuff like that. Weirdly ornate, fantastically intricate, AI-generated stuff, that will be awesome, fantastically beautiful, but also both grubby and creepy.

The self-containment of consciousness will erode. There is this saying that is particularly unhelpful, which is “no man is an island.” It means nobody exists in isolation. Obama got in trouble for saying something like this when he was addressing a bunch of entrepreneurs while president.

“You didn’t build this,” he said, “We built this all together. You’re business, which you built. You did not build it alone.” When he said, “not build alone,” that had all the conservatives jump on him, saying, “Socialist! Treasonous!”

No man is an island. It means that we all benefit from a shared civilization. But when it comes to consciousness, that saying doesn’t work at all because we all are islands because we are all trapped inside our skulls. 

Almost all our information skulls are done within our own brains. But that is eroding, slowly at first via our apps. You do not have to hink, “What is the best way to get from here to Glendale?”

Because you have a thing on your phone that will do the thinking for you. We have dozens of things that do little bits of thinking for us. We have dozens of other things that do little bits of thinking for us. 

We have more immediate ways of sharing the products of our thoughts. We can post videos. We can text all the time. Those still leave our consciousnesses more self-contained. But more bombarded by information 24/7.

That self-containment is going to erode as we come up with better and better technology to link our information processing apparatuses more directly. So, the saying could be, with regard to consciousness, “Every man, or woman, or person, is an island, but less and less so,” until we have access to what have been calling the worldwide thought “Blob” of the future.

3. Jacobsen: This seems like an important side road to pursue to share experiences. Thank you for sharing your experiences, I am sorry for your short-term losses, but also happy for your long-term wins.

If we look at these sectors of societies – “the government, the educational institutions, the media, and partly… religious institutions,” these sectors, and some of the personal stories told by Claus, bring some new dynamics to the conversation.

Highly and even exceptionally – as noted by the case with Claus – intelligent people around the world become abused in deed and emotion and word, held back in their academics and professional advancement, labelled with epithets, left unemployed – and unemployable – with intimidation from employers and then given the boot, silenced by legitimate threats of violence, and taken to task in public media if becoming of particular note in the public discussion, even found dead in some cases.

In terms of the government, the politicians, the campaign managers for the politicians, and the political party representatives lesser in authority than the leaders in the political parties will remain beholden to the party lines and policies, but also to the impression of acceptability to the constituency of some of the questioning members of the opposition.

Politicians want the votes of their constituency and the opposition, so this seems natural and an extension of the need to appease as many people as possible to acquire the necessary votes to win in an election.

In terms of the educational institutions, the emphasis on intellectual conformity seems strong to me. I know administrators, professors, and instructors who will state one thing in public and another in private, which seems like a self-protective mechanism in order to survive in the academic world, in the university system, because this amounts to the only world known to them.

If an administrator, professor, or instructor sacrifices the comfort of post-secondary or tertiary educational professional life, especially with the surrender of personal finances, time, potential opportunities, and energy into the development of an identity within the university system, then the lack of experience or contact with the external-to-academia world can make the transition difficult, emotionally and financially, and possibly impossible.

Which relates to the media, “impossible” if they spoke out on a particular issue sensitive to the general public, of which the public may harbour false views about but which the theories and empirical findings show clearly. The university system across the world needs the finances, and so approval, of the public, which creates, in a way, an apologist class who comfort and cajole in public fora in order to bridge semi-true/semi-false middle grounds between public opinion and the empirical findings in some domains.

The same for the students who need to acquire the credential or qualification from an accredited polytechnic university, research university, or college, where, as you note Claus, students perform most often for their livelihood and would forsake honest discussion in order to pursue and further their professional lives – too risky, too often, not to otherwise.

Scandals within student unions occur at a consistent rate without public mention, where only some become mentioned and the number of smaller physical, emotional, and verbal abuses to individuals in the student union happen because of the potential threat of those who speak out about abuses of power or may hold different opinions in private from the other student union members.

I recall several experiences within a student union, and as a student in contact with other students, instructors and professors, and administrators at a number of universities, and as a young research professional in different fields, where certain intellectual or ideological lines shall not be crossed and if stepped over the proportional consequences can be expected. It seems the same for university professors via the example from Claus.

These resulted in lost job opportunities, educational time, money, intimidation, and so on – the myriad listed aforementioned forms and techniques of social control, essentially all of them to be frank. The interesting thing, I do not think these techniques for social control within the academic system amount to conscious processes with most people inside of the university system most of the time.

The techniques of intellectual and ideological control seem like tense-stress reactions, which need to release in some form, to people who disagree with the individual.

My suspicion, the views do not equate to views alone but to views embedded in personal identity, where a disagreement with the university system status quo comes across as a disagreement, an affront and offense, against the person in academia as an individual – who often claims to speak for a group without legitimate justification, and so an affront and offense to the group as a whole, which suffices for attack on the individual with the disagreement.

The classical liberal and libertarian viewpoints properly understood, and the private sector compared to the public sector, may provide more freedom in intellectual and professional life, respectively.

With respect to the metaphysics and the nature of intelligence, with a touch on consciousness, these topics, for example intelligence, may not enter into the proper empirical discussion via their presentation in governments, in the university system, and in the media. For example, “We have theories of intelligence x, y, and z. Yesterday, we learned about x. Today, we will learn about x. Tomorrow, we will learn about z. You decide for yourself on the relative merits of it.”

These are presented as if on the same empirical plane. Then students leave the classroom, in an educational example, into an academic culture, especially in the social sciences, oriented towards a default of liberalism and non-nativist perspectives, which influences the perspectives on intelligence, for one within-topic discussion, in spite of the merits of the theories of intelligence relative to their empirical support and respect within the field of intelligence studies and the study of individual differences.

With all of this said, the main message seems to me the importance of independent thought, where some large institutions and social structures work against this to the detriment of the society and the deviant individual at times, which Claus encourages – and me too. This leads right into the domain of metaphysics and the nature of intelligence and consciousness once more.

What if we take an inverted approach to the question of metaphysics? Rather than an emphasis on metaphysics in order to gain insight into the natural and physical basis on intelligence, what about the things known in the natural and physical world about intelligence to garner knowledge about the traits of the metaphysical world? A simple set of extrapolations from the known to theorize about the metaphysics around intelligence and consciousness – open question.

Volko: I doubt that what we know of the natural and physical world will lead to new insights into metaphysics. Metaphysics is mainly about the immaterial world that seems to co-exist with the physical world. If this immaterial world does have an impact on the physical world, then its effects may be studied with the scientific method. But from a logical point of view, we only perceive implications, and can only speculate about the causes.

Rosner: Claus talks about metaphysics as if it’s the influence of the immaterial on the material. Another way to look at it would be them would be the influence of form on the material world.

The principles of existence which I think have a strong basis in the avoidance of contradiction. The things that are best at existing have the least self-contradiction. Starting with small time and space scales, you have quantum entities, quantum particles, which exist probabilistically.

They are not macro enough exist with indisputable certainty or near certainty. There is the de Broglie wavelength, which is inversely proportional to mass. The example always is given in beginning physics is to calculate the de Broglie wavelength of a baseball.

It contains roughly 10^26th atoms. Consisting of so many particles, its existence and position in space is indisputable. A baseball is definitely there in a way an electron is not. An electron is this piddly thing, which is hard to pin down, according to any measurable characteristic. 

Quantum physics is perhaps the closest to metaphysics of any modern scientific theory. Relativity is up there too. Where there are aspects of each that are impinged upon by basic principles of what can and cannot be, which also encompasses the principles of information because information is basically what exists when you strip everything else away.

Something is either yes-or-no, one of two states. That is the tiniest bit of information that you can work with, the tiniest clear bit of information. You can g smaller if you are willing to deal with nebulousness.

I believe metaphysics impinges on the real. I believe now is the time to look at metaphysics, where it hasn’t been for the past 3 or 4 centuries of science because concrete aspects of science have returned or flourished. The concrete aspects of the world.

It has paid off ridiculously well. Metaphysics hasn’t paid off at all. But we have reached the point, where we have Relativity and Quantum Mechanics which are impacted by the principles of existence, which means it’s time to get into metaphysics once more.

Because we have reached the point in science where it can productively encompass metaphysics. Earlier parts of this discussion were talking about how really smart people don’t necessarily flourish in the world.

At some point, the correlation between intelligence and academic/financial/relationship success & happiness – positive correlations – peak, below the level of really, really smart part, so that among people who would be considered super smart; you see a wide assortment of life situations and outcomes from super great to super miserable.

There are structures. Society has evolved to accommodate the range of skills people have, which is a Bell Curve and most people have middling skills. Because society runs on the middling, it is likely that people who are on one side or the other of middling will run into trouble.

Society has structural protections against being in constant turmoil. If you look at American society now, it is an example of what happens when previously existing structures that helped give stability are under assault by, to a large extent, new media.

The Internet has cooked our brains. People can’t make the measured judgments or reasonable judgments to the extent that they used to, because we have not yet developed the ability to reasonably evaluate and react to new media. 

There is also the disruption in employment caused by advances in technology. But, in general, when you look back at an apparently more stable time in society, like the 50s – though you could argue it was only stable on the surface, the 50s has the reputation of being a time of great conformity. 

People who attempted to defy it didn’t have much in the way of resources. Now, any kind of lunatic can go online and find all sorts of peers and support for disruptive behaviour. But in the 50s, people who didn’t conform and had fewer resources were more isolated. 

You have famous stories of people who didn’t conform suffering extreme penalties. Alan Turing who basically won WWII for us. He was forced into suicide because the cops or the authorities found out that he was gay, and then chemically castrated him with hormones and wrecked his body, made him sad, and then he died from cyanide.

It was just for the minor non-conforming character of not being gay. Some of the things that deny super smart people success reside in society. Some of those things reside in the smart people themselves and a bunch of it is a crazy or messy interaction among everything.

The example I always think of, and I don’t know if it is any good, imagine if the realtors. Smart people tend to be drawn to smart people disciplines like Chess and Go. Modern examples would be coding.

So, if you look at the area of selling real estate, not as it is now, but say any time until ten years ago, realtors are generally not brilliant. But if smart people were somehow driven to embrace selling real estate in the way that they are pushed to study higher math or like chess or science fiction, the real estate market would be entirely disrupted. 

Within the last ten years, it has been entirely disrupted because smart people methodologies are disrupting everything. Once you bring AI technology and internet technology to a field, it completely disrupts the field, like the field of paying somebody drive you some place.

The cab industry is destroyed. All retail is under siege, bricks-and-mortar retail, because you can go on eBay and get something on a price that is driven down based on everyone having access to this technology rather than simply getting something close enough to what you want in a store. 

Structures that middling society had erected are all getting their asses kicked by outlier technology.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Dipl.-Ing. Dr. Claus D. Volko, B.Sc.: “I was born in 1983 in Vienna, Austria, Europe. My father wanted me to become a doctor while I was more interested in computers in my youth. After teaching myself to program when I was eight, I started editing an electronic magazine at age twelve and kept spending almost my entire sparetime on it – Hugi Magazine.

Upon graduation from high school, I studied medicine and computer science in parallel. In the end I became a software developer who occasionally participated in medical research projects as a leisure activity.

I am also the maintainer of the website 21st Century Headlines where I try to give interested readers an up-to-date overview of current trends in science and technology, especially biomedical sciences, computers and physics, and I recently founded the Web Portal on Computational Biology. I think there is no doubt I am a versatile mind and a true polymath.”

Rick G. Rosner: “According to semi-reputable sources, Rick Rosner has the world’s second-highest IQ. He earned 12 years of college credit in less than a year and graduated with the equivalent of 8 majors. He has received 8 Writer’s Guild Award and Emmy nominations, and was named 2013 North American Genius of the Year by The World Genius Registry.

He has written for Remote Control, Crank Yankers, The Man Show, The Emmy Awards, The Grammy Awards, and Jimmy Kimmel Live!. He has also worked as a stripper, a bouncer, a roller-skating waiter, and a nude model. In a TV commercial, Domino’s Pizza named him the World’s Smartest Man. He was also named Best Bouncer in the Denver Area by Westwood Magazine.

He spent the disco era as an undercover high school student. 25 years as a bar bouncer, American fake ID-catcher, 25+ years as a stripper, and nude art model, and nearly 30 years as a writer for more than 2,500 hours of network television.

He lost on Jeopardy!, sued Who Wants to Be a Millionaire over a bad question, and lost the lawsuit. He spent 35+ years on a modified version of Big Bang Theory. Now, he mostly sits around tweeting in a towel. He lives in Los Angeles, California with his wife and daughter.

You can send an email or a direct message via Twitter, or find him on LinkedIn, or see him on YouTube.”

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 15, 2018 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/claus-and-rosner-three; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Dr. Claus Volko and Rick Rosner on “The Nature of Intelligence” (Part Three)  [Online].June 2018; 17(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/claus-and-rosner-three.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, June 15). Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Dr. Claus Volko and Rick Rosner on “The Nature of Intelligence” (Part Three) . Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/claus-and-rosner-three.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Ask A Genius (or Two):  Conversation with Dr. Claus Volko and Rick Rosner on “The Nature of Intelligence” (Part Three). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A, June. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/claus-and-rosner-three>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Dr. Claus Volko and Rick Rosner on “The Nature of Intelligence” (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/claus-and-rosner-three.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Dr. Claus Volko and Rick Rosner on “The Nature of Intelligence” (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A (June 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/claus-and-rosner-three.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Dr. Claus Volko and Rick Rosner on “The Nature of Intelligence” (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/claus-and-rosner-three>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Dr. Claus Volko and Rick Rosner on “The Nature of Intelligence” (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/claus-and-rosner-three.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Dr. Claus Volko and Rick Rosner on “The Nature of Intelligence” (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 17.A (2018):June. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/claus-and-rosner-three>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Dr. Claus Volko and Rick Rosner on “The Nature of Intelligence” (Part Three) [Internet]. (2018, June; 17(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/claus-and-rosner-three.

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© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2018-06-08

Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Dr. Claus D. Volko and Rick Rosner on “The Nature of Intelligence” (Part Two)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 17.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Thirteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: June 8, 2018

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 6,855

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Rick Rosner and I conduct a conversational series entitled Ask A Genius on a variety of subjects through In-Sight Publishing on the personal and professional website for Rick. Rick exists on the World Genius Directory listing as the world’s second highest IQ at 192 based on several ultra-high IQ tests scores developed by independent psychometricians. Dipl.-Ing Dr. Claus D. Volko, B.Sc., earned a score at 172, on the Equally Normed Numerical Derivation Tests (ENNDT) by Marco Ripà and Gaetano Morelli. Both scores on a standard deviation of 15. A sigma of ~6.13 for Rick – a general intelligence rarity of 1 in 2,314,980,850 – and 4.80 for Claus – a general intelligence rarity of 1 in 1,258,887. Of course, if a higher general intelligence score, then the greater the variability in, and margin of error in, the general intelligence scores because of the greater rarity in the population. This amounts to a joint interview or conversation with Dr. Claus Volko, Rick Rosner, and myself on the “The Nature of Intelligence.”

Keywords: Carl Gustav Jung, Charles S. Cockell, Christopher Michael Langan, Dr. Claus Volko, Francis Galton, Geoffrey Hinton, intelligence, Jeff Hawkins, Marvin Minsky, nature, Oliver Selfridge, psychometricians, Ray Kurzweil, Rick Rosner, Seymour Papert, Stephen J. Gould.

Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Dr. Claus D. Volko and Rick Rosner on “The Nature of Intelligence” (Part Two)[1],[2],[3],[4]

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Claus, as computational intelligence research is a subdiscipline with computer science, the specialization in computational intelligence would, seems to me, imply the end goal of the robot butler example. An autonomous machine still with a utility defined by human needs and wants at any given moment.

I see this as the main point of contact: the notions in general culture and an end goal of the experts in computational intelligence. One question for you, Claus, out of “neural networks, machine learning, search algorithms, metaheuristics and evolutionary computation,” what one is the dominant methodology?

In the long-term, which one or set of them will likely provide the foundation for a fully autonomous machine? As a sub-question, why did you pick the latter two – metaheuristics and evolutionary computation – to focus research questions for yourself?

Also, does anyone within the field, or even outside who has valid thoughts about the field, disagree with the fundamental assumption about intelligent behavior arising from the basis of computation? It seems hard to disagree with the fundamental premise, but it seems wise to ask about it. Also, Claus, and sorry for more questions for yourself at the moment, your final statement struck me:

A computer is excellent at computing logical conclusions from given premises, but it lacks the ability to come up with new ideas of its own. It can only draw conclusions from data that is given to it.

Of course, it is debatable whether human beings are really different in this aspect. Perhaps it is also the norm for human beings to be only able to come up with new ideas by combining knowledge and experiences that have previously been acquired in a creative way.

Within computational intelligence research, if the assertion amounts to human beings as computational engines or information processors with the ability to create or generate premises, compute conclusions from the data, e.g., integrated sensory experience, connected with the premises, and act or behave in the world from those conclusions, then human beings would have one distinct trait from other computational intelligences – in some large set space of possible computational intelligences given current technology and methodologies, which would be the ability to “come up with new ideas.” Of course, you note this is in question, as well.

What may be the computational basis for the creation or generation of suited to circumstance new ideas? Or if, as some think, this generation of new ideas is something machines cannot do on their own, what would differentiate this trait of human computation from other computation known now? Rick, many of these questions apply to you too.

Dipl.-Ing Dr. Claus D. Volko, B.Sc.: The dominant methodology is definitely neural networks in combination with machine learning. As a matter of fact, neural networks is not a new concept. It has been around for decades. But the big problem connected with it was the inability of this method to classify data sets that were not linearly separable, as pointed out by Marvin Minsky, Oliver Selfridge and Seymour Papert (Minsky, M. L., & O. G. Selfridge, 1961, “Learning in Random Nets”, in C. Cherry (ed.), “Information Theory: Fourth Symposium (Royal Institution)”, London: Butterworth, pp. 335 – 347; also see “Unrecognizable Sets of Numbers” (with Seymour Papert), JACM 31, 2, April, 1966, pp. 281-286).

To my knowledge, it is mostly thanks to the achievements of a couple of researchers including Geoffrey Hinton that this problem was overcome. Hinton published a paper about the backpropagation algorithm already in 1986, but it took until about 2011 that the new technique of “deep learning” became well-established, resulting in great successes, with artificial intelligence becoming stronger and stronger ever since. Interesting enough, Hinton himself has recently turned to be skeptical of backpropagation since he believes that this is not the way the human brain really works (see also: https://medium.com/intuitionmachine/the-deeply-suspicious-nature-of-backpropagation-9bed5e2b085e).

Even if it is right that the human brain works in a different way, I am convinced that the technology we have now would suffice to create fully autonomous machines, at least for serving certain defined purposes. However, when I have recently been at a demonstration of a language-processing robot here in Vienna, I was disappointed to see that the robot failed to recognize either of the words that had been spoken to it by the demonstrator. Still we should acclaim the progress artificial intelligence has made. Not only is Google Translate quite good already, there is also a website founded by German computer scientists called www.deepl.com which is an even better translator of text documents, especially from German to English and from English to German. When I write my blog postings in German, I use this website to obtain an English version fast. The results need some post-processing, but far less than similar translation programs would have required only ten years ago.

The reason why I focused on metaheuristics and evolutionary computation during my days as a graduate student was mostly that I found these approaches to be fascinating, especially as I also have a background in biomedical sciences and a good understanding of Charles Darwin’s Theory of Evolution. Also, I am one of those people who are especially interested in algorithm design. I tend to believe that I have a special talent for that. For instance, I recently developed and implemented a complete mesh voxelizer from scratch, starting with the underlying algorithm. That is, a computer program that takes a description of a three-dimensional geometrical object (e.g. a cone, a sphere, or something even more complex) and converts it into a (possibly huge) set of identical blocks.

I am not aware that anybody working in the field of computational intelligence disagrees with “the fundamental assumption about intelligent behavior arising from the basis of computation”. If somebody disagrees with this fundamental assumption, then I guess he or she does not work in the field. Otherwise his/her behavior would be inconsistent.

Regarding your remark about human beings having “one distinct trait from other computational intelligences”, namely “the ability to come up with new ideas”, Ray Kurzweil wrote about this in his seminal book “The Singularity Is Near”, from 2005. He stated that human intelligence is particularly good at pattern recognition and that this is something machines are still weak at (although I must say that machines have dramatically improved on this in the past decade, just thinking of unsupervised learning and clustering). By contrast, according to Kurzweil machines are particularly good at storing huge amounts of data and retrieving this data within a very short time. That’s what he considers the strength of machine intelligence.

It is difficult to answer your question what is the computational basis for the creation of new ideas. I must say in this context that I am a big fan of the Swiss psychiatrist Carl Gustav Jung who invented the Jungian Function Theory which the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator and Socionics are based on – I consider him the greatest genius of all times (see also: http://geniuses.21stcenturyheadlines.com/). Carl Gustav Jung defined eight psychological functions, one of them being introverted intuition. This function is defined as follows (from http://personalitygrowth.com/introverted-intuition/):

“Introverted Intuition (Ni) deals with understanding how the world works through internal intuitive analysis. Ni relies on gut feelings and intuition about a situation to help them understand. Introverted Intuition does not look at what is seen. Introverted Intuition forms an internal map and framework of how things work. The map is slowly adapted and adjusted over time to allow the user to get a better sense of the ‘big picture of things’ and what steps to take to get the desired outcome. Introverted Intuition will take pieces of abstract information and make sense of it. It is not interested so much in concrete facts, as it is with the essence of ideas and theories, and how they all fit together. They are very good at recognizing patterns. […] Introverted Intuition asks questions like ‘what’s really going on here?’ or ‘where have I felt this way before?’ Introverted Intuition is one of the toughest functions to explain to someone else that doesn’t have it. Because of this, Ni has been labeled as ‘mystical’ and ‘psychic.’ And sure, it can appear that way to others, but it is more complex and involved than just ‘magically’ coming to conclusions.”

So, the human ability to come up with new ideas is related to what Carl Gustav Jung called “introverted intuition”. How this exactly works, science has not found an explanation for yet. We are still in the time of hypothesis generation regarding this aspect of the human psyche.

However, as already mentioned, machines do have the ability to discover non-obvious properties of given data, as is employed in the “clustering” method. For instance, if you feed a machine with data regarding name, eye color, size and weight, a machine might find out correlations between e.g. eye color and weight that would possible be non-obvious for a human being.

Rick Rosner: Claus comments that he has been skeptical of backpropagation because he does not consider this the way the human brain really works. Evolution is opportunistic. We can assume brains in general take advantage of anything that works.

That is easily made and energetically efficient. Evolution will follow easy, effective pathways, which may mean brains have more than one computational/information-processing strategy.

Because evolution not being a conscious force does not give a crap. Things that work tend to persist over time. There is discussion here about the strengths and weaknesses of machine intelligence.

I feel like that is somewhat entangled with information processing machines still being really primitive. That when they come into their own. They will have roughly the same abilities as the human brain.

It is that we are at such a beginning point. Being able to store data is barely machine intelligence. Comparing computer data storage to the brain is like comparing a pulley to an engine. I’ve talked with you (ed. Scott) about this a lot.

I was arguing with my buddy, Lance, last night about free will. I don’t see how free will can exist since thought has to be based on the information. I also don’t see why it is needed.

I prefer informed will: knowing why I am thinking everything I am thinking and without being subject to bias that I am not aware of. But when it comes down to it, I think machine thinking – not the thinking of machines now, but machines in the future or human-machine hybrids, or super powerful genetically tweaked humans in the future – will all be thinking based on the information.

I think Claus talks about it, as it is stated. Thought is a form of information processing. It is not this magical other thing. When you get powerful enough and flexible enough information processing, it is the equivalent of thought.

Free will is like a concept left over from a time before people thought in terms of information.

2. Jacobsen: Claus, in correspondence, you wisely wanted to redirect the conversation from artificial intelligence and computational intelligence into the more substantive unsolved problem of human intelligence in the context of a full framework for explanation.

Given the redirection from one sub-topic of artificial intelligence to another in human intelligence, to Claus and Rick, what defines human intelligence to you, e.g. parameters, limits, capabilities, measurements, observational markers, empirically verifiable general factors, and so on?

How does artificial intelligence differ from human intelligence? Can artificial intelligence replicate human intelligence in another substrate? If so, why does this seem possible in theory? If not, why does this not seem possible in theory?

Does intelligence amount to the currency of the universe? If so, how? If not, how not? How does human intelligence compare to other primate and mammalian intelligences? What appear to be the probabilities for extraterrestrial intelligences? How might human and other known intelligences shed light on the possible range and variety of extraterrestrial intelligences?

Volko: These are very interesting questions, thank you for asking them. First of all, I have recently watched a TED talk with Jeff Hawkins, a former IT entrepreneur who turned into an AI and brain researcher (https://www.ted.com/talks/jeff_hawkins_on_how_brain_science_will_change_computing). In my opinion, the definition of intelligence he provided in his talk is very reasonable. He stated that intelligence is all about making predictions. Indeed that is the case when solving IQ test tasks. You are presented with a list of numbers, for instance, and have to guess what numbers will follow if the principle the number pattern is based on is continuously applied. The same goes for tasks involving patterns, verbal analogies etc.

In fact there are many different definitions of intelligence, which is also why it is sometimes difficult if not even impossible to compare IQ scores obtained in two different tests. My late father, who had studied psychology at university (even though he did not complete the degree), used to prefer the definition that intelligence is the ability to get by novel situations not experienced before. Of course, this definition is compatible with Hawkins’ definition, since getting by novel situations requires to make predictions.

In his recent book “Life 3.0 – Being human in the age of Artificial Intelligence”, Max Tegmark, a professor of physics at the MIT, defines intelligence as the “ability to achieve complex goals”. He states that intelligence is multi-faceted and cannot be measured by a single IQ value, and also that while machines are superior to humans at particular types of intelligence such as arithmetics and a couple of strategy games (Chess, Go), there are various forms of human intelligence where machines have not reached a comparable level of performance yet, such as artistic intelligence, scientific intelligence, and social intelligence.

I personally prefer Hawkins’ definition of intelligence. In my opinion, many researchers and of course also laymen make the mistake to use the term intelligence for all sorts of abilities while in reality, intelligence is only a basic cognitive talent that may be required for accomplishing various sorts of intellectual tasks, but intelligence is not to be confused with these intellectual abilities themselves. Also, when Howard Gardner talks about multiple intelligences, I would say that much of what he calls types of intelligence is abilities which, of course, may be related to intelligence (the ability to make predictions), but general intelligence is only a basic requirement for developing these abilities, and the abilities themselves (such as social skills or musical talent) go way beyond intelligence as such.

For instance, as a child I was fond of computer games, and so it happened that I ended up trying to make computer games of my own. Computer games mainly consist of three components: graphics, music and code. I tried all the three things, but it turned out that I have only talent for code. Thus, I am able to create working computer programs, including games, but without assistance from other people, these games are destined to have rather weak graphics and music. I am intelligent, I usually score very high on IQ tests (as Rick can confirm, the two of us once took part in the beta-testing session of a novel, experimental numerical IQ test, and in this beta-testing session Rick obtained the second highest score of all 86 participants from the world, all having an IQ of 135 or higher according to traditional IQ tests, while I obtained the third highest score). Yet I lack talent at graphic design and music composition. Programming, however, comes natural to me. Probably that’s not only due to my level of intelligence but because I also have a special talent for algorithm design, which goes beyond what traditional IQ tests measure. After all, I also got to know some people scoring very high on traditional IQ tests who failed to solve basic programming exercises when they were required to do so in mandatory university courses for beginners.

So, there are some researchers who perceive intelligence as a set of general and several sets of special abilities (also called g and s, respectively), but I do not adhere to this notion. In my opinion, intelligence should be called cognitive talent and intelligence testing should be all about the basic ability to make predictions from given data. In this context, of course that is also what machine learning does, especially unsupervised learning and clustering. For this reason, it is definitely justified to call machine learning a form of (artificial) intelligence. When the computer makes predictions based on given sets of data, the computer in fact does behave in an intelligent manner. Being able to make intelligent predictions, on the other hand, does not imply being a life-form equipped with consciousness and self-awareness, as I have already stated.

I do not think intelligence can be called the currency of the universe. A currency is something that can be used to exchange goods. But intelligence cannot be used for that purpose. That said, I do think that animals are intelligent as well. I even think that animals are self-aware. I have a German Shepherd dog myself (hi, Archie!), and as my mother keeps saying, my dog seems to be able to understand everything that is going on around him and every word we are saying to him. Animals have something to them which machines such as computers do not yet have, even though machines are already able to make intelligent predictions. I am a strong advocate for animal rights, and I have even been pondering over bacterial rights recently, bacteria being a life-form themselves as well (Charles S. Cockell has published a few papers dealing with that matter, if you are interested, which can be freely downloaded from the Internet – I am corresponding with him these days as I am working on a related new scientific theory on my own, which is supposed to shed light on new ways of treating infectious diseases and cancer).

It is possible that there are also intelligent life-forms in outer space, but what makes me a bit skeptical about that is simply that we have not encountered any of them so far, at least not to my knowledge. However, even if we have not met extraterrestrial life-forms yet, that of course does not suffice to conclude with certainty that there are none. The universe is huge, so who knows what may be existing in a remote place where no man has ever gone before. I personally consider the SETI project a good thing, and I would also be ready to donate computational power to it if it was not the case that I am already donating my computational power to research projects in biomedical science (protein folding).

Rosner: This whole section is about machine intelligence versus human intelligence. I think the thing that differentiates them currently is that human intelligence; we perceive the world in great detail because our brains have 10^10neurons each with 10^3 dendrites.

So, in a lot of situations, the brain has reality constructing resources to spare. We do not notice the graininess of perception because our brains are big and powerful, though not infinitely big and powerful.

When you have so much perceptual and simulatory and, as Claus mentioned, predictive resources to throw at the world, you get good results without necessarily being conscious of mental strategies and algorithms.

You get a seamless feeling simulation of the world. I agree with Claus and the TED Talk guy, and Lisa Feldman Barrett who wrote How Emotions Are Made. She said the brain’s primary objective is to predict the world to allow you to most efficiently address the world.

Our brains answer the questions: what is going to happen next? What do I need to do with what is going to happen next? But given our brains are so powerful, we tend not to see the mechanics of thought in everyday life.

Say you are a thief and part of your caper is that you need to duplicate a key, if you are trying to duplicate a key, and if you only had tools that came out of Minecraft, for instance, they’d be blocky and clunky, and you would have to come up with a special strategy to duplicate the key.

In caper movies, you need to a wad of wax. The graininess of the wax, the scale of the particles in the wax, are smaller than the scale of the notches in the key. The graininess of that is not noticed.

You have material that you press the key into that has 10^10 atoms per millimetre. We do not notice the graininess. As machine intelligence becomes more powerful, we will less and less notice the graininess of the products of intelligence.

You can see that in video games. You started with one pixel with Pong. Then you went to these rough blocky things like the creatures in Dig Dug and Pac-Man. Now, we are deep into the or beyond the Uncanny Valley with most video games.

People look perfectly fleshy and have the right body dynamics. There is a lot of coding that has delivered that, but it is also in combination with raw computational power. 

3. Jacobsen: I paid attention to Hawkins for some time several years ago, almost a decade now. He talked about some models – some related to intelligence and others not, created by others and himself, as revolutionary at the time. It seems interesting to me, too.

Claus and Rick, you both perform exceptionally well on tests of general intelligence. The performance on the tests, on average, translate into general life performance or standard success metrics. If somebody performs well on an IQ test, they tend to succeed in school and life.

This seems truer than in the past with the Fourth Industrial Revolution and the knowledge economy: both ongoing. Each requires more education. Those who perform well on IQ tests tend to perform well in school, so better in the knowledge economy compared to others.

With the subject of human intelligence, I want to focus on the big pool of failed theories. What about the theories purported to explain human intelligence better than others but with failure in predictive validity?

Those theories with claims to validity, but do not predict success in different domains of human endeavour. In short, what theories claim to measure human intelligence while these lack the empirical evidence to support them? Claus, you touched on some. This may narrow the field of possibilities down a bit.

Also, if we can mathematicize the processes of the universe with descriptive laws, then we can mathematicize the processes of parts of the universe with descriptive laws. If the human brain and consciousness are part of the universe, then we can (in theory) mathematicize the brain and consciousness with descriptive laws.

This seems to lead to the main point about human intelligence within the bigger topic of the nature of intelligence: a set of descriptive laws for the processes of the human brain and consciousness, so human intelligence as well.

With such a set of descriptive laws, it would encapsulate human intelligence by implication. As we simulate the parts of the universe in digital computers, e.g. galactic mergers, rotation of planets around stars and satellites around planets, and so on, with the descriptive laws programmed into a digital computer, this may extend to human intelligence too.

Does this lead to an inevitable conclusion with human intelligence as replicable inside a substrate including digital computers with such a set of descriptive laws for human intelligence programmed as an algorithm into a digital computer?

Any speculations on the early form of this algorithm?

Volko: I am aware of some historical attempts at intelligence testing that have more or less failed. For instance, Francis Galton, the founder of the science of human genetics, invented some practical tasks such as guessing the weight of an item and believed that the majority of common people would fail these tasks. However, in reality the majority of the people he tested passed. So this test was not an adequate intelligence test assuming that the distribution of intelligence follows a Gaussian curve. I also know that in the middle of the 20th century, it sometimes happened that vocabulary tests were used as intelligence tests. In reality vocabulary tests give an advantage to people of a particular social class and lifestyle. I recall I once saw a test sheet from the 1950s and was unable to define some of the German words from this test (my native language is German) despite having a good general education. Some of this words were simply old-fashioned and not in use nowadays, and some, as said, referred to everyday items of people of a particular social class with a particular lifestyle which are more or less unknown to other people. I also recall that when I was learning English at high school, it was easy for me to memorize philosophical and scientific terms because I was interested in these things, while I had a hard time to memorize words that were about kitchen equipment, for instance. It is the same situation with these vocabulary tests – they are definitely not suitable for testing intelligence without bias.

I am also aware that many people have tried to “mathematicize” the universe and come up with their own “theories of everything”. Again, the problem with most of these theories is that they fail to come up with plausible explanations of the phenomenon of consciousness. Science in fact often assumes a “naturalist” worldview suggesting that everything that happens in the world can be explained by observable causes. I tend to believe that the focus on the physical world and the rejection of the possibility that something might exist out of the physical world, in a kind of immaterial world that cannot be observed with our five senses, is the reason why this approach to understanding the world will never lead to a complete explanation of everything. On the contrary, I do think that we need to speculate and enter the domain of metaphysics if we want to obtain a coherent theory of how the world might actually work. In this context, let me clearly state that I do not reject religion, I only reject dogmatism and the social mechanisms of enforcing a certain set of beliefs on other people and suppressing the non-believers. I myself am not religious, I have not even been brought up in a religious fashion, yet I do not consider myself an atheist but rather am of the opinion that there is something we cannot observe, something we probably cannot even measure indirectly (at least not without distortions and artifacts from other origins), and this could be called a “divine force” or God. I agree with atheists that it is silly to imagine God as an omnipotent old man with a long white beard, but I do believe in some sort of “divine force” that is stronger than anything else in the world, and that is why I consider myself a theist. The term “God” may be used as a metaphor for this “divine force”.

However, it might in fact be possible indeed to describe human intelligence by some set of laws, and by programming computers to obey these laws, computers might be equipped with the ability to come up with predictions just as human beings do. I actually believe that what we call human intelligence is a function of the brain, or perhaps of the central nervous system. While I am not sure whether consciousness is a product of the brain or whether a conscious “persona” or “psyche” exists in an immaterial world we cannot perceive with our sensory organs and is only, in some way, attached to a brain, I believe that the brain is the “computer” that enables us to make intelligent predictions. So what intelligence tests measure is a property of this “computer”.

At the moment I am spending some of my spare time reading about the “Cognitive-Theoretic Model of the Universe”, which is a “theory of everything” invented by the autodidact Christopher Langan. I have acquired only a basic understanding of this rather complex theory so far, but I am definitely able to say that it is an interesting read and I am particularly curious about learning how Langan explains phenomena such as consciousness which science fails to explain so far, and which science, as long as it limits itself to phenomena observable in the physical world, will probably never be able to fully explain.

Regarding the question what the algorithm employed by the human brain to make intelligent predictions might be, I would like to mention again that Geoffrey Hinton, the inventor of backpropagation, has recently stated that his own algorithm is definitely not the way the human brain works and that the artificial intelligence community should see to it that a replacement for it be found as soon as possible. To my mind, the only thing that can be definitely said about how human intelligence works is that the process of making predictions is basically a search algorithm in which syntactically possible, but contextually wrong solutions are excluded until only one solution remains, or until only a few solutions remain from which the brain chooses the one that appears to be the most reasonable one. Differences in human intelligence may be due to differences in the efficiency of the search algorithm employed by the proband. Efficiency is not only about raw speed. If you have the talent to come up with ways to exclude more possible solutions at the same time than other people, you will find the right solution sooner than another person with the same “raw processing speed” of the brain. Human intelligence definitely is not all about “raw speed”.

The more powerful computers become, the more possibilities, of course, we will have to simulate complex things such as human intelligence and possibly even living organisms. In the past year, I have read several papers and books about artificial life. This is a branch of science that is still in its infancy. While artificial intelligence has made tremendous progress since 2010, even though it will still need another revolution until we will have artificial general intelligence that matches or even surpasses human intelligence, not much progress has been made in the simulation of living organisms since the field of artificial life was coined by Christopher Langton (not the same person as Christopher Langan) 30 years ago. I have been even a bit surprised to see that the artificial life community nowadays mainly focuses on evolutionary algorithms, one of the things I learned about in my computer science studies, instead of trying to simulate living organisms. But a reason for this is certainly that it still requires an enormous amount of computational power even to simulate a few hundred nanoseconds of the folding of a protein. That is why existing artificial life systems are usually highly abstract and have little to do with actual living organisms. An exception to this rule might be the Open Worm project, which tries to simulate the nematode Caenorhabditis elegans in a computer and about which new publications appear on the Internet now and then.

As you wrote that people who score high on intelligence tests usually perform well at school: I can confirm this from my own experience. I was a very good student and even graduated from high school with a straight-A record. What I, however, would like to state in this context is that high intelligence does not seem to give you a benefit when studying things you are not really interested in. I recall I had a hard time memorizing things I was oblivious to, such as some areas of biology and geology. However, it seems to me that people who perform well on intelligence tests usually also have a rather wide range of interests. That is why they are able to acquire knowledge about many things without really having to study hard. And yet, scoring high on an intelligence test does not always imply that you will eventually become a polymath one day. There are many other factors that are relevant as well, such as your personality and the (social) environment in which you grow up.

Rosner: The field of intelligence testing and the related field of statistics have had pasts that are questionable, but they are even worse than that. A lot of the people associated with statistics and intelligence testing were racist or trying to reach racist or try to support racist conclusions.

Pearson, apparently, was racist. I do not know the whole history of this. If you want to read a history of this, though it is obsolete, then you can read Stephen J. Gould’s The Mismeasure of Man. That book is probably close to 40-years-old now.

There might be more recent books that talk about this better. Pearson is the guy who came up with the Pearson Coefficient, r, which is a huge part of statistics. Apparently, he was not a great guy.

I question the need for intelligence testing in a modern context. There are many measures of people. I can go along with IQ testing if you are using IQ testing for its original purpose – the purpose imagined by Binet when he came up with the idea, which is getting kids help in school, either because they are smarter than average or not as smart as average. Beyond that, when you start talking about national IQs and national average IQs, all that stuff is racist and doesn’t help anybody except racist assholes.

There is not much need for improvements in human intelligence testing. The rate at which technology is galloping along and the rate at which we will merge with information processing technology means we do not need anything as old school as everybody knowing their IQ to three purported digits.

Technology is making a lot of us stupider via social media and texting all the time. But in the aggregate and in the long run, technology is making us smarter. Native intelligence will be less and less of a factor.

What will be more and more of a factor will be how well we merge with the technologies and the technological social structures of the future, we are already seeing that. I call the 2016 election the first AI election. The American election was a complete mess because of all sorts of technology that we do not have a handle on yet. The social media manipulation of opinion. The angry electorate because of jobs lost in part due to automation.

America continues to be – and anywhere where Russia hd gotten its cybernetic and social media cyber paws – in semi-turmoil. England is a mess with Brexit. Russia has its paws over that too.

Russia tried to mess with France’s election. When Western nations lose power because we are governed by idiots and everyone is pissed at everybody else, Russia somehow gains power.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Dipl.-Ing. Dr. Claus D. Volko, B.Sc.: “I was born in 1983 in Vienna, Austria, Europe. My father wanted me to become a doctor while I was more interested in computers in my youth. After teaching myself to program when I was eight, I started editing an electronic magazine at age twelve and kept spending almost my entire sparetime on it – Hugi Magazine.

Upon graduation from high school, I studied medicine and computer science in parallel. In the end I became a software developer who occasionally participated in medical research projects as a leisure activity.

I am also the maintainer of the website 21st Century Headlines where I try to give interested readers an up-to-date overview of current trends in science and technology, especially biomedical sciences, computers and physics, and I recently founded the Web Portal on Computational Biology. I think there is no doubt I am a versatile mind and a true polymath.”

Rick G. Rosner: “According to semi-reputable sources, Rick Rosner has the world’s second-highest IQ. He earned 12 years of college credit in less than a year and graduated with the equivalent of 8 majors. He has received 8 Writer’s Guild Award and Emmy nominations, and was named 2013 North American Genius of the Year by The World Genius Registry.

He has written for Remote Control, Crank Yankers, The Man Show, The Emmy Awards, The Grammy Awards, and Jimmy Kimmel Live!. He has also worked as a stripper, a bouncer, a roller-skating waiter, and a nude model. In a TV commercial, Domino’s Pizza named him the World’s Smartest Man. He was also named Best Bouncer in the Denver Area by Westwood Magazine.

He spent the disco era as an undercover high school student. 25 years as a bar bouncer, American fake ID-catcher, 25+ years as a stripper, and nude art model, and nearly 30 years as a writer for more than 2,500 hours of network television.

He lost on Jeopardy!, sued Who Wants to Be a Millionaire over a bad question, and lost the lawsuit. He spent 35+ years on a modified version of Big Bang Theory. Now, he mostly sits around tweeting in a towel. He lives in Los Angeles, California with his wife and daughter.

You can send an email or a direct message via Twitter, or find him on LinkedIn, or see him on YouTube.”

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 8, 2018 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/rosner-and-volko-two; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Dr. Claus Volko and Rick Rosner on “The Nature of Intelligence” (Part Two)  [Online].June 2018; 17(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/rosner-and-volko-two.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, June 8). Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Dr. Claus Volko and Rick Rosner on “The Nature of Intelligence” (Part Two) . Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/rosner-and-volko-two.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Ask A Genius (or Two):  Conversation with Dr. Claus Volko and Rick Rosner on “The Nature of Intelligence” (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A, June. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/rosner-and-volko-two>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Dr. Claus Volko and Rick Rosner on “The Nature of Intelligence” (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/rosner-and-volko-two.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Dr. Claus Volko and Rick Rosner on “The Nature of Intelligence” (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A (June 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/rosner-and-volko-two.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Dr. Claus Volko and Rick Rosner on “The Nature of Intelligence” (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/rosner-and-volko-two>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Dr. Claus Volko and Rick Rosner on “The Nature of Intelligence” (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/rosner-and-volko-two.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Dr. Claus Volko and Rick Rosner on “The Nature of Intelligence” (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 17.A (2018):June. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/rosner-and-volko-two>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Dr. Claus Volko and Rick Rosner on “The Nature of Intelligence” (Part Two) [Internet]. (2018, June; 17(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/rosner-and-volko-two.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2018-06-08

Interview with Guillaume Lecorps: Président/President, L’Union étudiante du Québec (UEQ)/The Quebec Student Union (QSU)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 17.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Thirteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: June 8, 2018

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,117

ISSN 2369-6885

Guillaume Lecorps.jpg

Abstract

An interview with Guillaume Lecorps. He discusses: the L’Union étudiante du Québec (UEQ) or the Quebec Student Union (QSU); becoming involved with the organization; positions held in them; Simon Telles legacy and the work for Guillaume now; the students and universities involved in QSU/UEQ; mission and mandate implementation; and the concerns of students now.

Keywords: Canada, Guillaume Lecorps, L’Union étudiante du Québec, Président, President, Québec, Quebec, Quebec Student Union, student unions.

Interview with Guillaume Lecorps: Président/President, L’Union étudiante du Québec (UEQ)/The Quebec Student Union (QSU) [1],[2],[3]

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Full disclosure: I was an executive in a student union and on several committees in CASA and worked with you. In this real sense, we are friends and were colleagues.

For those without a background in the L’Union étudiante du Québec (UEQ) or the Quebec Student Union (QSU), how did the organization form in the first place?

Guillaume Lecorps: Another provincial organization, FEUQ, existed until 2014. Its member and non-member associations, over time, realized there were a few major problems in terms of structure and approach in the vehicle and decided to create something new that would better represent the aspirations of students nowadays.

Campus associations from across then gathered around the table to discuss the creation of the Quebec Student Union (QSU).

2. Jacobsen: How did you become involved in the organization?

Lecorps: I was the external affairs officer in a member association of the QSU two years ago. I really felt like the approach at the Quebec Student Union and the priorities chosen by the member associations reflected both my individual values and ambitious, innovative projects to improve the student condition.

I decided to take the leap and run for the vice president position last year, before getting elected as the president for the current mandate.

3. Jacobsen: What positions do or have you held in UEQ/QSU?

Lecorps: Vice president and president.

4. Jacobsen: With the current transition, what legacy is left behind by Simon? What goals and dreams do you bring into the position as he takes it?

Lecorps: Simon did a great job at developing the public credibility of the Quebec Student Union and improving our impact with stakeholders. I plan on continuing that work, as I believe it’s a crucial aspect of a provincial advocacy organization.

Also, I plan on connecting the QSU a bit more directly to its individual members and students of Quebec in general. A lot of the important projects we have this year, such as mental health and paid internships, will help students better grasp how the work done by the QSU directly impacts their lives on a daily basis.

5. Jacobsen: How many students are part of UEQ/QSU? What universities are part of the union?

Lecorps: 79,000 from 8 associations, 7 universities. The universities are: University of Montreal, Université du Québec à Montréal, University of Sherbrooke, National school for public administration, Université du Québec en Abitibi-Témiscamingue, Polytechnique (which, in a Quebec, is an engineering university), Bishop’s University.

6. Jacobsen: What is the mission and mandate of the organization? How has this been implemented over time, even altered through time to suit the changes in the need of the community of post-secondary students?

Lecorps: To defend the rights of students from all regions, all programs and all types of degrees. We have created specific working committees or permanent committee (such as for graduate studies and research issues) over time in order to address specific realities or empower certain mobilizations led by students.

To have a flexible structure and to be able to thrive on punctual mobilization while developing credible, evidence-based policy are key to have an organization that properly adapts to the needs expressed by students.

7. Jacobsen: What are the concerns of the students expressed and dealt with through UEQ/QSU?

Lecorps: Student mental health is a big problem right now. We are currently developing a national investigation that will help us collect data and potential solutions during the next 8-10 months.

Also, student services, specifically for those living with disabilities, must be improved. This is one of the things we will be advocating for in this fall’s provincial elections.

8. Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Guillaume.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Président/President, L’Union étudiante du Québec (UEQ)/The Quebec Student Union (QSU).

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 8, 2018 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/lecorps; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Image Credit: Guillaume Lecorps.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Interview with Guillaume Lecorps: Président/President, L’Union étudiante du Québec (UEQ)/The Quebec Student Union (QSU) [Online].June 2018; 17(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/lecorps.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, June 8). Interview with Guillaume Lecorps: Président/President, L’Union étudiante du Québec (UEQ)/The Quebec Student Union (QSU). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/lecorps.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Interview with Guillaume Lecorps: Président/President, L’Union étudiante du Québec (UEQ)/The Quebec Student Union (QSU). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A, June. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/lecorps>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “Interview with Guillaume Lecorps: Président/President, L’Union étudiante du Québec (UEQ)/The Quebec Student Union (QSU).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/lecorps.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Interview with Guillaume Lecorps: Président/President, L’Union étudiante du Québec (UEQ)/The Quebec Student Union (QSU).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A (June 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/lecorps.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Interview with Guillaume Lecorps: Président/President, L’Union étudiante du Québec (UEQ)/The Quebec Student Union (QSU)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/lecorps>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Interview with Guillaume Lecorps: Président/President, L’Union étudiante du Québec (UEQ)/The Quebec Student Union (QSU)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/lecorps.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Interview with Guillaume Lecorps: Président/President, L’Union étudiante du Québec (UEQ)/The Quebec Student Union (QSU).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 17.A (2018):June. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/lecorps>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Interview with Guillaume Lecorps: Président/President, L’Union étudiante du Québec (UEQ)/The Quebec Student Union (QSU) [Internet]. (2018, June; 17(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/lecorps.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2018-06-01

The Case of Gloria Steinem and Bennett Braun: Feminism, New Age, and Satanism

Numbering: Issue 17.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Thirteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: June 1, 2018

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,215

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Professor Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi examines Gloria Steinem and a lesser examined aspect of life for her. As a member public intelligentsia for decades, Steinem has several parts of life less examined than others. Beit-Hallahmi takes a closer look at the aspect of Steinem’s life around feminism, the New Age, psychiatry, and Satanism.

Keywords: Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi, Bennett Braun, Feminism, Gloria Steinem, New Age, Satanism.

The Case of Gloria Steinem and Bennett Braun: Feminism, New Age, and Satanism[1],[2],[3]

Gloria Steinem (1934-) has long been celebrated as one of the world’s leading feminists, and so seems to have always been in the public eye, with every aspect of her life scrutinized.  A look at a less examined chapter in her life finds that in addition to her many efforts on behalf of women, she managed to find the time and the energy to become involved in the craziest episode in the history of modern psychiatry, which actually victimized thousands of women.

In the 1980s, there was a three-pronged epidemic that shook up psychotherapy in the English-speaking world. This affair started with the dubious idea of recovering “repressed” memories. Trauma is something you cannot shake off, but over the past 50 years, some self-described trauma experts have claimed that many trauma survivors have lost their memories to dissociation or repression. The step was the more dubious idea that the phenomenon of multiple personality is widespread, but unrecognized.

Dissociative phenomena include such things as loss of memory (amnesia), or temporary loss of identity. In extreme cases, individuals have been described as suffering from identity fragmentation, or multiple personality. For 100 years, dissociative disorders, if at all real, were considered extremely rare. Following a wave of claims about memories of sexual abuse, recovered during psychotherapy, there was a meteoric rise in the number of individuals diagnosed with multiple personality disorder (MPD).  Whereas before 1980 the number of cases in the literature was under 100, by 1995 there were tens of thousands of such cases. The number of reported personalities in one body skyrocketed and the record was 4,500. Ninety-five percent of the cases were diagnosed in North America, and 95% of them were women.

In tandem, the International Society for the Study of Multiple Personality and Dissociation (ISSMPD) was founded in 1984  by the psychiatrist Bennet Braun. Braun attracted a number of mental health professionals and a movement was formed. Soon dissociation was not only a movement, but a cause.

The ISSMPD was responsible for the next stage of the epidemic. The assumption was that MPD was the result of a massive childhood trauma. In 1988, Bennet Braun connected MPD with Satanic Ritual Abuse (SRA).  Leaders of ISSMPD started educating the public about an underground intergenerational network of Satanists, responsible for killing thousands of children every year. Children born into Satanic families witnessed their siblings, or other children, being sacrificed, and were subject to other forms of abuse. The resulting trauma led to dissociation and MPD.  The therapists who were telling the world about dissociation, trauma, and Satanism were supposedly relying on evidence from clients who, during intensive treatment, recovered memories of childhood abuse. Braun and his colleagues suggested that the uncovered connections, which had been neglected or overlooked, between childhood trauma, repressed and recovered,  MPD and SRA, was a major breakthrough in the history of psychiatry.

In 1989 Braun’s partner, the psychiatrist Richard Kluft, expressed concern about a “hidden holocaust” perpetuated by Satanic cults. (Kluft remains a believer and in 2014 he stated “I remain troubled about the matter of transgenerational satanic cults”).

How is Gloria Steinem tied to these events?

She met Bennet Braun in Chicago in 1986, while on a journalistic assignment, and became an instant admirer and disciple. Her attachment to Braun energized her involvement in the cause. The record shows that Steinem was not just an observer who commented on cultural developments, but an active member of the dissociation movement.

At the ISSMP&D 1990 conference there were already some skeptical voices about Satanism claims. There were two psychiatrists who were concerned about the reputation of the ISSMP&D  being harmed by Satanism stories. There were also two speakers who told the audience that stories about Satanists were delusional nonsense. Richard Noll, a clinical psychologist, was one of them.  Following his talk, he was approached by Gloria Steinem, who suggested some materials he should read which would help him change his view of Satanism stories.

If you are aware of any Satanists who are engaged in murdering children and adults as part of their rituals, you should report it to the nearest police station. Braun, Steinem, and their allies claimed to have uncovered an international secret religion, with a membership of hundreds of thousands, devoted to killing thousands of helpless victims,   but never turned to the police. If such a secret organization exists, this should be brought to the attention of all world governments, and not just your local police.

Steinem thanked Bennet Braun in   Revolution From Within (1993). In the 1994 meeting of the ISSMP&D,  he received an award from Steinem, for his services to women. In 1993, Ms magazine, a feminist flagship,   published a cover story titled  “Surviving the Unbelievable: A First-Person Account of Cult Ritual Abuse,” which claimed to be a first-person true account by a woman who grew up in a Satanic family that sacrificed babies and practiced cannibalism.  The Ms. Cover also proclaimed “Believe it! Cult Ritual Abuse Exists! One Woman’s Story.”

Steinem’s writings reflect her commitment to the dissociation movement. In her self-help book, Revolution From Within (1992),  Steinem addressed specifically the reality of repressed memories, and multiple personalities.

Here is some of what she wrote: “Perhaps, the memory has been pushed out of our consciousness completely. But those images and feelings remain alive in our unconscious-and they can be uncovered. Even abuse so longterm and severe that a child survived only by dissociating from it while it was happening still leaves markers above its burial ground. (p. 72)

There are telltale signs of such buried trauma . . . fear of expressing anger at all; substantial childhood periods of which you have no memory of emotions or events . . . depression. . . severe eating disorders . . . Trust these clues-there is statistical as well as personal evidence that the conditions they point to are widespread.

Perhaps a third of the children in the United States have been subjected to sexual and other kinds of severe abuse or neglect. . . . Frequently, such memories are so painful that they don’t surface fully until years after the events occurred. The more extreme and erratic these events, the younger we were when we experienced them, and the more dependent we were on the people who inflicted them, the more repressed they are likely to be”. (pp. 162-163).

This is actually Freud’s theory of the etiology of hysteria, which he presented to the world in the late 1890s. According to Sigmund Freud and Josef Breuer, the problem in hysteria was not repression but incomplete repression.  Steinem, who has compared Freud to Hitler, doesn’t realize that she has become a Freudian.

Things get curioser and curioser as we read on. Revolution from Within  contains a bizarre section which praises MPD  as increasing individual potential and talents:

“Suppose, for instance, that after an internal process measurable in milliseconds and based only on your own desire and the needs of the situation at hand, you could:

– change your brain’s right- or left-hemisphere dominance to the opposite side — and back again — regardless of your biological sex or cultural gender;

– change handwriting and personal signature for different roles or needs, and also write skillfully and perform other tasks with your nondominant hand;

— raise or lower your pulse rate, blood pressure, temperature, level of oxygen need, and thresholds of pain and pleasure;

— eliminate an allergic reaction to an environmental factor that is healthy or inevitable, or create an allergic reaction to a factor you want to avoid;

— reenter and reexperience your mind’s stored memories of the past as if they were happening in the present;

— call up your body’s somatic memory of everything that has happened to it with such clarity that “ghosts” of past wounds and bruises reappear on your skin in minutes, and then slowly disappear as you leave the memory;

— activate visions of a past or future state of health so powerful that they can speed the healing of current wounds, measurably strengthen the immune system, and give you access at any time to the superhuman abilities usually reserved for emergencies;

— adjust your eyesight to nearsighted, farsighted, or normal, depending on your task, with such physical impact on the eye’s curvature that an optometrist examining you would write you an entirely different lens prescription;

–change voice depth and timbre, mannerisms, grammar, accent, facial muscle patterns, body language, physical style, and even darken the color of your eyes — so totally that an unwitting observer would assume you to be of a different ethnicity, age, race, class, or gender from one moment to the next;

— change your response to medication — or achieve that medication’s result without taking it — and thus have all the benefits of a tranquilizer, sleeping pill, “upper”, or anesthetic, but none of the side effects;

— heighten or lessen sexual desire, and widen or narrow the range of those people for whom you feel it;

— adjust your body’s response to lunar and diurnal cycles;

— become maximally effective and “tuned in” to various challenges — work, parenting, dancing, a back rub, your own creativity, a friend’s need, your immediate problem, a future dream — by summoning up that part of yourself that contains exactly the appropriate sensitivities and strengths;

— bring into one true self the strengths of all the selves you have ever been in every setting and situation from infancy to now.

All of these abilities have been demonstrated — and verified through a wide variety of double-blind tests, brain scanning, and other objective techniques  — in people who have what is called “multiple personality disorder,” or MPD…Thus, by adulthood, one person may comprise as many as a dozen completely different personalities…What we haven’t even begun to consider, however, is what would happen if the rest of us could acquire for positive reasons the abilities these accidental prophets have learned for negative ones. If such extraordinary abilities can be summoned to help survive the worst of human situations, they are also there to create the best. What if we could harness this unbelievable potential of body and mind?

Clearly, the list of human abilities with which this discussion of MPD began is only a hint of the real possibilities. People in different alters can change every body movement, perfect a musical or linguistic talent that is concealed to the host personality, have two or even three menstrual cycles in the same body and handle social and physical tasks of which they literally do not think themselves capable. We need to face one fact squarely. What the future could hold, and what each of us could become, is limited mainly by what we believe.” (Steinem,  1992, 316-319)

In this delusional paragraphs above, Steinem tells us not only that women with MPD can have ”two or even three menstrual cycles in the same body”, but also develop unimaginable abilities, including having all the benefits of “a tranquilizer, sleeping pill, “upper”, or anesthetic”, without taking them.  In this insane portrayal, MPD is no longer a pathology, but the royal road to humanity’s future. So now the pathology of multiple personality has become a gift, making individuals into “accidental prophets”, in an incredible display of  New Age psychobabble. This utopian nonsense is just as ridiculous as the stories about parents sacrificing their children to Satan. It is not the only bizarre claim in the book, which is really a New Age product worthy of   Oprah Winfrey, with the usual advice on “spirituality” and meditation.

Revolution From Within: A Book of Self-Esteem, has been sold by the millions and is still selling. Not a word has been changed since 1993, and we can assume that Steinem still holds the same views on repression and multiple personality. Most accounts of her life you may run into do not mention her commitment to Bennet Braun and the dissociation movement.  In 2015, Steinem published an autobiography  (My life on the road), which is obviously selective and unreliable, as such works are.  It does not mention her involvement with Braun, but the book ends with an About the Author section, and there we find the following sentence: “In 1993, her concern with child abuse led her to co-produce an Emmy Award-winning   TV documentary  for HBO, Multiple Personalities: The search for Deadly Memories.” Steinem was indeed co-producer and co-narrator  (with Michael Mierendorf)  of this HBO film.

As the twenty-first century began, the epidemic seemed to fade. There were precipitous declines in the frequency of reports about recovered memories, multiple personalities, or Satanists at work. If all these phenomena are real, how can we explain such a decline in their prevalence?  If repressed memories  (sometimes recovered),  multiple personality, and Satanists were so prevalent as once claimed, how could they so completely disappear? The end of the dissociation epidemic is especially puzzling. One reason might be the large sums of money, in the tens of millions,  paid out by insurance companies to former MPD psychotherapy clients, who went to court to pursue their therapists.

Bennet  Braun, the person most identified with the dissociation cause, was the target of some of the best-known legal cases. Elizabeth Gale entered therapy with Braun in 1986 for mild depression and then was made to believe that she had MPD, and was active in an intergenerational satanic cult. She was also made to believe that she had bred babies for the Satanists,  who were sacrificed after birth. With the approval of Bennett Braun, she went through a tubal ligation at age 31,  so that she would no longer harm children. In  2004, Bennett Braun and his colleague, the psychologist Roberta Sachs, paid Elizabeth Gale $7.5 million to settle her claim that they persuaded her into believing she needed to be sterilized so she would have any more babies to be sacrificed to Satan. In reality, Elizabeth Gale never gave birth to any babies, and never will. Another judgment against Braun was for $10.5 million.

Scores of other court cases made it clear that the stories about Satanist rituals were invented by therapists and fed (often forcefully) to their clients. In 2001, the American Psychiatric Association expelled Bennet Braun from membership, “after Dr. Braun was found to have provided incompetent medical treatments unsupported by usual standards of practice; violated ethical boundaries with the patient, including inappropriate sexual behavior and exploitation; and seriously breached patient confidentiality with the media”.

It is easy to conclude that the story is about the damage inflicted by deluded or delusional professionals. Another view is that the whole operation was cynical producing of lavish profits. This is how Ewing Werlein, Jr., United States District Judge for the Southern District of Texas, described the actions of MPD-SRA  therapists  in 1999: “These Defendants diagnosed and/or treated  various of these patients as members and/or victims of clandestine “Satanic cults” that committed horrendous crimes (e.g., murder, rape, cannibalism, etc.) upon their own members and their children. The evidence consistently revealed, however, that while these Defendants in different ways regularly encouraged their patients to divulge tales of such brutal crimes, which thereby perpetuated their insurance-paid “treatments,” Defendants never reported any of these supposed crimes to the police for investigation”. There was indeed a Satanic conspiracy, perpetrated and perpetuated by mental health professionals. The facility in Texas that judge Werlein was discussing happened to be the location where the 1993  film on multiple personality, that Steinem was so proud of, had been produced.

Child abuse is real, sexual abuse is real, incest is real, MPD may be real in some rare cases. Claims about Satanic rituals are different, because they are delusions, without any basis in reality.  It is not a matter of opinions or judgment. If you believe in an underground religion worshipping Satan, without one shred of evidence ever been found, then something is terribly wrong with your reality testing. Letting you treat troubled individuals demonstrates severe negligence.

Of course, the problem was not about any individual professional. It was that of psychotherapy as a cultural institution with no clear standards. Gloria Steinem was not a care-giver, but she aided and abetted the credentialed professionals who inflicted unimaginable suffering on many thousands of parents and children. Some may suggest an application of the sincerity test. Steinem was not going to profit, and was sincere in her concern for victimized women. She failed to realize that these women were victimized not by any Satanists, but by Dr. Braun and his partners. As a major public opinion leader, political activist,  and an icon of feminism, it is sad to realize that she could be so gullible and unthinking.  Our wish to help those suffering abuse should not extinguish a basic level of critical thinking.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Professor, Psychology, University of Haifa.

[2] Ph.D., Clinical Psychology, Michigan State University.

[3]Individual Publication Date: June 1, 2018 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/gloria-steinem-bennett-braun-feminism-new-age-satanism; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Beit-Hallahmi, B. The Case of Gloria Steinem and Bennett Braun: Feminism, New Age, and Satanism [Online].June 2018; 17(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/gloria-steinem-bennett-braun-feminism-new-age-satanism.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Beit-Hallahmi, B. (2018, June 1). The Case of Gloria Steinem and Bennett Braun: Feminism, New Age, and Satanism. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/gloria-steinem-bennett-braun-feminism-new-age-satanism.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): BEIT-HALLAHMI, B. The Case of Gloria Steinem and Bennett Braun: Feminism, New Age, and Satanism“. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A, June. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/gloria-steinem-bennett-braun-feminism-new-age-satanism>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Beit-Hallahmi, Benjamin. 2018. “The Case of Gloria Steinem and Bennett Braun: Feminism, New Age, and Satanism.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/gloria-steinem-bennett-braun-feminism-new-age-satanism.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Beit-Hallahmi, Benjamin “The Case of Gloria Steinem and Bennett Braun: Feminism, New Age, and Satanism.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A (June 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/gloria-steinem-bennett-braun-feminism-new-age-satanism.

Harvard: Beit-Hallahmi, B. 2018, ‘The Case of Gloria Steinem and Bennett Braun: Feminism, New Age, and Satanism‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/gloria-steinem-bennett-braun-feminism-new-age-satanism>.

Harvard, Australian: Beit-Hallahmi, B. 2018, ‘The Case of Gloria Steinem and Bennett Braun: Feminism, New Age, and Satanism‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/gloria-steinem-bennett-braun-feminism-new-age-satanism.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi. “The Case of Gloria Steinem and Bennett Braun: Feminism, New Age, and Satanism.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 17.A (2018):June. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/gloria-steinem-bennett-braun-feminism-new-age-satanism>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Beit-Hallahmi B. The Case of Gloria Steinem and Bennett Braun: Feminism, New Age, and Satanism [Internet]. (2018, June; 17(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/gloria-steinem-bennett-braun-feminism-new-age-satanism.

License and Copyright

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Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

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© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2018-06-01

Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Dr. Claus Volko and Rick Rosner on “The Nature of Intelligence” (Part One)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 17.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Thirteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: June 1, 2018

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,767

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract 

Rick Rosner and I conduct a conversational series entitled Ask A Genius on a variety of subjects through In-Sight Publishing on the personal and professional website for Rick. Rick exists on the World Genius Directory listing as the world’s second highest IQ at 192 based on several ultra-high IQ tests scores developed by independent psychometricians. Dipl.-Ing Dr. Claus D. Volko, B.Sc., earned a score at 172, on the Equally Normed Numerical Derivation Tests (ENNDT) by Marco Ripà and Gaetano Morelli. Both scores on a standard deviation of 15. A sigma of ~6.13 for Rick – a general intelligence rarity of 1 in 2,314,980,850 – and 4.80 for Claus – a general intelligence rarity of 1 in 1,258,887. Of course, if a higher general intelligence score, then the greater the variability in, and margin of error in, the general intelligence scores because of the greater rarity in the population. This amounts to a joint interview or conversation with Dr. Claus Volko, Rick Rosner, and myself on the “The Nature of Intelligence.”

Keywords: Dr. Claus Volko, intelligence, nature, psychometricians, Rick Rosner.

Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Dr. Claus D. Volko and Rick Rosner on “The Nature of Intelligence” (Part One)[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Interview conducted via email. Please see biographies in footnote [1].*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Claus meet Rick. Rick meet Claus. The topic is “The Nature of Intelligence” for this discussion. Claus, you are a programmer, medical scientist, and expert in computational intelligence. That is, you have the relevant expertise. Therefore, it seems most appropriate to have the groundwork, e.g. common terms, premises (or assumptions), and theories within computational intelligence, provided by you. To begin, what are the common terms, premises (or assumptions), and theories within computational intelligence at the frontier of the discipline? From there, we can discuss the nature of intelligence within a firm context.

Dipl.-Ing. Dr. Claus D. Volko, B.Sc.: Hello Scott, hello Rick, I am happy to be around with you.

Computational intelligence is a subdiscipline of computer science that has the aim to enable computers to make autonomous decisions based on reasoning. So computers should ultimately display behavior which human beings would consider “intelligent”. The primary assumption of computational intelligence is that intelligent behavior can emerge from computation. Techniques scientists use in this subdiscipline include neural networks, machine learning, search algorithms, metaheuristics and evolutionary computation.

Nowadays a lot of computer scientists specialize in machine learning. It is a subdiscipline of computational intelligence in which the computer is trained to solve classification and regression problems on its own. There are three types, supervised learning, unsupervised learning and reinforcement learning. In supervised learning, the computer is given a training set, based on which it learns to classify data or compute a regression curve. After the training, the computer can classify new data of a similar kind on its own. In unsupervised learning, the computer tries to find ways to classify data by itself. One type of unsupervised learning is known as clustering: the computer is provided with data and has to come up with categories which subsets of this data can be assigned to. Finally, reinforcement learning is a type of machine learning in which the computer gets a “reward” for correct behavior and sees to it that this reward gets maximized. Nowadays you often bump into the buzzword “deep learning”; that is a superset of various variants of machine learning having in common that they employ neural networks. Deep learning techniques have recently yielded a lot of success, e.g. in gaming. For instance, the program AlphaGo which beat one of the best Go players of the world a couple of years ago employs deep learning.

In general, speech recognition, image recognition and natural language processing are considered real-world applications of machine learning. Machine learning algorithms are used for optical character recognition (to process handwritten texts), for controlling computers by voice (as it is already possible in Windows 10 using MS Cortana) and for automated translation (e.g. Google Translate).

Commonly used search algorithms include the Minimax algorithm and Alpha-beta pruning, which is an optimized variant of the former. These algorithms allow the computer to traverse through a search tree and decide which path to take in order to arrive at the optimal result as quickly as possible. Such algorithms are regularly used in computer games in order to make decisions how the computer-controlled opponents should act.

I personally specialized in metaheuristics and evolutionary computation in my studies. Metaheuristics is a programming paradigm for solving combinatorial optimization problems that comprises various algorithms which allow to speed up computation while not guaranteeing that the (globally) optimal solution is found. This is useful when working with computationally hard problems, such as NP-complete or non-polynomial problems, where it would take a lot of time to find the global optimum and where it would be acceptable to find a solution that is very good, although it is not the global optimum. Some examples of metaheuristics include variable neighborhood search, simulated annealing, tabu search, and branch-and-bound. In general they have the disadvantage that they sometimes get stuck in local optima, that is solutions that are better than all of their “neighbors” but still far from the global optimum. To overcome this obstacle, metaheuristics have built-in mechanisms to rapidly move away from local neighborhoods and try to find a better local optimum elsewhere.

Evolutionary computation is a variant of metaheuristics that is based on the idea of Darwinian selection. So it is a range of algorithms inspired by biology and mechanisms such as mutation. One interesting subtype of evolutionary computation is genetic programming, in which the computer creates new programs itself and selects the ones that seem to work best.

All of this is supposed to make the computer behave in an “intelligent” manner. And researchers working in this field are becoming increasingly successful: Some computer programs already achieve an average score in intelligence tests designed for human beings. And yet, the computer lacks one thing man has at his/her disposal: self-awareness. Computers may be able to think, but they are not aware of their doing so. That is why it is still ethical to turn off or throw away a computer, while of course it is not ethical to kill a human being.

Computational intelligence, just like human intelligence, relies heavily on logic, which is why lectures on formal logic, history of logic and non-classical logics make up a large part of the computational intelligence curriculum at university. A computer is excellent at computing logical conclusions from given premises, but it lacks the ability to come up with new ideas of its own. It can only draw conclusions from data that is given to it. Of course, it is debatable whether human beings are really different in this aspect. Perhaps it is also the norm for human beings to be only able to come up with new ideas by combining knowledge and experiences that have previously been acquired in a creative way.

Rick Rosner: The general question for Claus and me is the nature of intelligence and Claus has talked a lot about it because it is his field, which is computational intelligence. Claus, you talk about various forms of computational intelligence and AI. I just want to talk a little bit about – I think most people who don’t work in the field, like me, who think about AI they think about robot butlers or a robot girlfriend. Often, it is a human-type brain in a human type body. Or, at least, something you can talk to. (We did this interview many months ago, and I’ve taken a shamefully long time to go over my comments. But in that time, I think the public has become much more aware of machine learning. We may not understand it, but more and more we know it’s not just robot girlfriends.)

Then when people who work in the field of AI and machine learning talk about that stuff, I don’t think you mean fully conscious human thinking. I think you mean various forms of very powerful computation, which may or may not embrace an ability to improve performance through self-feedback or machine learning. I have a friend who says by the year 2100 there will be a trillion AIs in the world.

But that doesn’t mean a trillion robot butlers or girlfriends. He means a trillion machine intelligences of various types, with most of them engineered for specific functions and most without consciousness.  Sophisticated computational devices will surround us. It’s been predicted that sidewalks will have chips in them to record pedestrian traffic to help city managers know how to deal with pavement durability and congestion issues, and who knows what else. But that doesn’t mean that the sidewalk will be conscious. It would be a sad life for a sidewalk chip that has to be conscious 24/7 of itself being a sidewalk.

A conscious sidewalk would be overkill. Though it wouldn’t be overkill to have sophisticated tallying technology in a sidewalk, especially in a future when such technology will be cheap.

When it comes to consciousness versus machine intelligence, I think what I believe about consciousness is closest to Minsky’s Society of Mind with massive feedback among the brain’s various subsystems. Today, machine learning and AI do not include the massive amount of shared information among expert subsystems that goes into having a fully fleshed consciousness. The option is not there yet. And even when it is, AI for most tasks will not require the massive and intricate information-sharing that constitutes consciousness. However, in the farther future, more than a century from now, information processing will be so powerful, ubiquitous, highly networked and flexible, that consciousness will not be considered as special as it is now. It could be something that is or is not present in parts of a system at a given time, depending on its immediate information-processing needs.

Volko: First, before answering Scott’s new questions, I would like to comment on Rick’s statement regarding consciousness.

I think that Rick is right in that artificial intelligence enables computers to make very complex computations, but that it does not make the machines conscious.

There has recently been an article about this matter in Singularity Hub (https://singularityhub.com/2017/11/01/heres-how-to-get-to-conscious-machines-neuroscientists-say/). Quote from this article:

“Consciousness is ‘resolutely computational,’ the authors say, in that it results from specific types of information processing, made possible by the hardware of the brain. […] If consciousness results purely from the computations within our three-pound organ, then endowing machines with a similar quality is just a matter of translating biology to code. […] To Dehaene and colleagues, consciousness is a multilayered construct with two ‘dimensions:’ C1, the information readily in mind, and C2, the ability to obtain and monitor information about oneself. Both are essential to consciousness, but one can exist without the other. […] Would a machine endowed with C1 and C2 behave as if it were conscious? Very likely: a smartcar would ‘know’ that it’s seeing something, express confidence in it, report it to others, and find the best solutions for problems. If its self-monitoring mechanisms break down, it may also suffer ‘hallucinations’ or even experience visual illusions similar to humans.”

I personally tend to be highly skeptical about this statement. I doubt the basic assumption that “consciousness results purely from computations”.

It is not easy to explain what consciousness is. I can only speak for myself: I have a strong feeling that “I am something (or someone)”. I “hear” my own thoughts, I have the feeling that I can control them, as well as my actions. I doubt that this can be just achieved by computation. In this context, it may be interesting that Drs. Vernon Neppe and Edward Close recently proposed a “theory of everything” which they called the “Triadic Dimensional Distinction Vortical Paradigm” (see also: http://vernonneppe.com/world_of_9_dimensions.aspx). They stated that reality has three dimensions of space, three dimensions of time and three dimensions of consciousness – nine dimensions in total. I have, admittedly, not studied this theory in detail yet, having had other priorities in my life so far, but I consider the notion that there are three dimensions of consciousness, whatever that is supposed to be, highly interesting. A similar proposition has been made by physicist Dirk Meijer (“The mind may reside in another spatial dimension”, see https://m.theepochtimes.com/uplift/a-new-theory-of-consciousness-the-mind-exists-as-a-field-connected-to-the-brain_2325840.html).

Also, the highly renowned theoretical physicist Edward Witten recently stated: “I tend to think that the workings of the conscious brain will be elucidated to a large extent. Biologists and perhaps physicists will understand much better how the brain works. But why something that we call consciousness goes with those workings, I think that will remain mysterious.” (Source: https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/world-s-smartest-physicist-thinks-science-can-t-crack-consciousness/)

Jacobsen: When I reflect on the nature of intelligence or the subject of the conversation for us, Claus, you focus on computational intelligence as this amounts to the field of specialization for you, which interests me. Rick, you wrote for broadcast television, specifically as a comedy writer for late-night television, for more than a decade. Your examples represent popular culture examples because the cultural stew of Los Angeles, California, where you live, worked, and continue to independently write with me. Of course, we discussed these examples in previous publications.

I note a few main points – and this may run into more and more questions. One is the division between more general and more specified applications for human utility. One former example being the robot butler. Something tasked for a broader set of purposes to serve human beings. One latter example being sensors on the sidewalk tied into some central processor underneath a city. Some things with a specific task and nothing more. According to Rick’s friend, there could be one trillion of these AIs, mostly, by 2100. Nonetheless, both assume functional utility to people.

However, taking off the late Marvin Minsky point with the society of mind, what about the butler? The robot butler could be upgraded with additional processing to have self-awareness beyond the rudimentary, even have a rich personality and internal dialogue life – able to entertain guests in the home as it serves them dinner. Rick, how might this play out? How has this played out in popular culture representations or in science fiction portrayals?

Rosner: Bear with me – I’ll get to the robot butler. The same friend who says that we’ll have a trillion AIs also says that technology is driven by sex, meaning that the internet is as developed as it is today because, among other things, it is an efficient pornography delivery system. To put it a nicer way, our humanity, via market forces, will continue to drive technology, even as we become what has been called transhuman. Whatever we turn into, we will still want friends and companions. We will be deeply embedded in social/computational networks. For the past 10,000 years and more, we have been the planet’s apex thinkers. That is changing. The new apex thinkers will be alliances between humans and AIs. As we grow in information-processing power, we will have AI friends and work partners. Eventually, much of future humanity + AI will become subsumed in a planet-wide information-processing thought blob, out of which individual consciousnesses will bud off, go about some business or pleasure, and possibly be reabsorbed. It’ll be weird but not a dystopia – positive values will continue to be embodied in the inconceivable swirl.

Most science fiction misses the mark. Someone said something like, “Science fiction is the present dressed up in future clothes.” It’s hard to predict and present the full, crazy complexity of the future. Star Trek basically presents the people of today (well, the mid-1960s) having standard adventures but on other planets with people in body paint and on a starship with doors that go “whoosh.” Star Trek is not what 250 years from now will look like – it’s incompletely imagined, with an emphasis on what is acceptable to TV executives and exciting to viewers without breaking the production budget. There’s a new show on Netflix called Altered Carbon, set 300 years in the future. According to Altered Carbon, people of the 24th century will have smokin’ hot but largely unaugmented bodies (20 hours a week at the gym + diuretics) and will spend much time naked or in nice underwear, humping, shooting and torturing each other. And the streets are grubby and rainy and neon-filled, because Blade Runner. (At least Blade Runner 2049 doesn’t pretend to be the future – its creators think of it as a meditation on the future – a bleakly poetic futuristic fantasia.) The denizens of the real 24th century will be highly transformed, inside and out. They probably won’t be as interested in sex as we are – there will be so much else for them.

Science fiction (movies and TV) does what’s easy. That includes actors portraying robots and rainy, Blade Runnery streets. Few productions attempt complete futures. I think Her is good because it’s set 10 to 15 years in the future, so there hasn’t been enough time for much to change. I like some authors because their futures seem more weird or complete – Neal Stephenson, but he doesn’t always write about the near future. The Diamond Age might be Stephenson’s best version of a near future, but it’s already 23 years old. In 2007, Clooney was supposed to make it into a series for the Sci-Fi Channel, but it didn’t happen. Charles Stross is good, particularly Accelerando. Cory Doctorow is good. David Marusek – especially his short story, “The Wedding Album.” Margaret Atwood, Ramez Naan, Paolo Bacigalupi, William Gibson. Blood Music, by Greg Bear, but it’s 33 years old. Women are underrepresented on my list, so, some links. Of course, most of these authors haven’t attempted all-encompassing versions of the near future.

http://ew.com/books/27-female-authors-sci-fi-fantasy/

https://www.bustle.com/p/the-9-best-sci-fi-fantasy-books-written-by-women-in-2017-according-to-amazon-3255319

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Dipl.-Ing. Dr. Claus D. Volko, B.Sc.: “I was born in 1983 in Vienna, Austria, Europe. My father wanted me to become a doctor while I was more interested in computers in my youth. After teaching myself to program when I was eight, I started editing an electronic magazine at age twelve and kept spending almost my entire sparetime on it – Hugi Magazine.

Upon graduation from high school, I studied medicine and computer science in parallel. In the end I became a software developer who occasionally participated in medical research projects as a leisure activity.

I am also the maintainer of the website 21st Century Headlines where I try to give interested readers an up-to-date overview of current trends in science and technology, especially biomedical sciences, computers and physics, and I recently founded the Web Portal on Computational Biology. I think there is no doubt I am a versatile mind and a true polymath.”

Rick G. Rosner: “According to semi-reputable sources, Rick Rosner has the world’s second-highest IQ. He earned 12 years of college credit in less than a year and graduated with the equivalent of 8 majors. He has received 8 Writer’s Guild Award and Emmy nominations, and was named 2013 North American Genius of the Year by The World Genius Registry.

He has written for Remote Control, Crank Yankers, The Man Show, The Emmy Awards, The Grammy Awards, and Jimmy Kimmel Live!. He has also worked as a stripper, a bouncer, a roller-skating waiter, and a nude model. In a TV commercial, Domino’s Pizza named him the World’s Smartest Man. He was also named Best Bouncer in the Denver Area by Westwood Magazine.

He spent the disco era as an undercover high school student. 25 years as a bar bouncer, American fake ID-catcher, 25+ years as a stripper, and nude art model, and nearly 30 years as a writer for more than 2,500 hours of network television.

He lost on Jeopardy!, sued Who Wants to Be a Millionaire over a bad question, and lost the lawsuit. He spent 35+ years on a modified version of Big Bang Theory. Now, he mostly sits around tweeting in a towel. He lives in Los Angeles, California with his wife and daughter.

You can send an email or a direct message via Twitter, or find him on LinkedIn, or see him on YouTube.”

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 1, 2018 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/kay-two; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Dr. Claus Volko and Rick Rosner on “The Nature of Intelligence” (Part One)  [Online].June 2018; 17(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/rosner-volko-one.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, June 1). Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Dr. Claus Volko and Rick Rosner on “The Nature of Intelligence” (Part One) . Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/rosner-volko-one.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Ask A Genius (or Two):  (Part One) Conversation with Dr. Claus Volko and Rick Rosner on “The Nature of Intelligence”. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A, June. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/rosner-volko-one>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Dr. Claus Volko and Rick Rosner on “The Nature of Intelligence” (Part One) .” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/rosner-volko-one.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Dr. Claus Volko and Rick Rosner on “The Nature of Intelligence” (Part One) .” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A (June 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/rosner-volko-one.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Dr. Claus Volko and Rick Rosner on “The Nature of Intelligence” (Part One) ‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/rosner-volko-one>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Dr. Claus Volko and Rick Rosner on “The Nature of Intelligence” (Part One) ‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/rosner-volko-one.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Dr. Claus Volko and Rick Rosner on “The Nature of Intelligence” (Part One) .” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 17.A (2018):June. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/rosner-volko-one>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Dr. Claus Volko and Rick Rosner on “The Nature of Intelligence” (Part One) [Internet]. (2018, June; 17(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/rosner-volko-one.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2018-05-22

In Conversation with Barbara Kay (Part Three)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 17.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Thirteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: May 22, 2018

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,563

ISSN 2369-6885

In Conversation with Barbara Kay

Abstract

An interview with Barbara Kay. She discusses: clunky neologisms; shootings and political discourse; more than one person at a news cycle crime; having a religious life without practicing religion; God in her belief system; Wittgenstein, God, and the UN Charter and ethics; and the Divine Right of Kings.

Keywords: Bach, Barbara Kay, belief, columnist, Islamophobia, journalism, religion.

In Conversation with Barbara Kay: Columnist and Journalist, National Post (Part Three)[1],[2],[3],[4]

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: I think it is relevant. We have the term “Islamophobia.” It is clunky term. It is a neologism. We do not have words like “Jewishophobia,” Hinduismophobia,” and “Christianophobia.” I am sure; I did not invent that one.

However, when people say, “Islamophobia,” they mean, “Anti-Muslim bigotry.” That is, something most reasonable people would agree on, in general. If someone is a bigot against someone, as an individual for a belief system, whether religious or non-religious, then that is ethically or morally reprehensible.

However, the term is clunky with Islamophobia. It seems too amorphous, too vague, to pin down. Does that seem deliberate to you? Why do we not have those other terms?

Kay: It is deliberate. The word “Islamophobia” is a term invented by the Muslim Brotherhood. The goal was to, little by little, bring a proscription against the criticism of Islam throughout the world. That mandate has gained traction.

It has been very successful. The Organization of Islamic Cooperation made it their business to further that resolution through Resolution 15/17 in the UN. By using that word, it becomes a stalking horse. You use that word and then pretend it is equivalent to anti-Semitism.

But it is not because anti-Semitism is hatred against Jews, against people. It is not hatred of the Torah or hatred of Judaism or hatred of Israel or Zionism, but hatred of Jews. Islamophobia is meant to be hatred of Islam.

We know that. This whole farce, this Motion 103 farce, where nobody would define the word because everyone knew the elephant in the room was criticism of Islam. It is already entrenched as a social crime in many place, where criticism of Islam or Islamic culture, or Islamic events, or identifying talking about ISIS as an Islamic form of terrorism rather than just plain terrorism.

This has come to pass in other places. It will come to place here. They will get it instituted one way or another, probably through the ruse of a Day of Action. The Remembrance Day for the mosque tragedy and a day of action against Islamophobia.

Again, this word; the conservatives tried to get a motion in: “Let’s say anti-Muslim bigotry.”  It would have ended the problem. But they would not accept it. They said, “We insist on this word Islamophobia.” Why are they insisting on that word?

There is one reason. There could be only one reason. That is because it encompasses criticism of Islam itself. I think it is quite reasonable to expect it. I think the prime minister would like to see that prohibition because he is quite keen on protecting Islam from what he considers undue bigotry against Islam and Muslims.

He supports that idea, even though there is no real evidence that there is a special animus against Muslims. The statistics of hate crimes do not show anything special. This whole movement, this whole Islamophobia movement, it is quite startling, amazing, the success that the Muslim Brotherhood has had in normalizing it, banalizing it, and making it seem that if you are against measures to combat this scourge, which I do not think is a scourge, then you are a “racist.”

You are a “bigot.” It is the same as the transphobic thing. You cannot speak up. You cannot, for example, say, “Europe is awash in anti-Semitism and virtually 100% of the acts of violence against Jews in Europe are perpetuated by Muslims.”

There is a great deal of it. Islam as it is practiced or understood today. There is a great deal of inherent anti-Semitism in the more militant elements, in those who are Islamists. They are intrinsically. Islamism is an anti-Jewish and anti-Christian movement.

Christians are more persecuted than any other people in the world. Christians are the most at—risk people in the world. Our prime minister is not interested in hearing that. He is not interested in hearing about Yezidis, Assyrians, Coptics or any of the ancient Indigenous peoples of the Middle East.

He is fascinated by and obsessed with what he sees as Muslims as victims. He does not want to hear about them in the context of them creating victimhood among other people. It makes him uncomfortable.

He is quick to call the mosque tragedy terrorism. Within 10 minutes of hearing about the mosque tragedy, he was quick to call it an act of terrorism. But the Boston Marathon massacre perpetrated by the two Afghani brothers, he statement was that they perhaps were not well-integrated or excluded by society.

He was Mr. Social Services guy: let us not rush to judgment here. He did not rush to label the villains in the Boston Marathon massacre. This is a guy with a lot of bias. It is uncomfortable for a lot of people. It is recognized.

People see it. This bias. It is a little weird. Nobody quite knows what to do about it.

2. Jacobsen: I want to talk a little more about the general political discourse and outcomes. A reasonable person with a calm mentality in times of news crisis, not national crisis, if it is a small tragedy such as the mosque shooting, the Boston Marathon, or the Florida school shooting – there will probably be another one in a day at this rate…

Kay: …Alas…

Jacobsen: …that person will wait for the evidence and consideration of people that are experts on the ground who will then make a claim. “It was an ethnically motivated assault on a bunch of black people at a church by a white person.” “It was an anti-Muslim [or Islamophobic in their terms] attack on a mosque community while they were worshipping by a Christian nationalist.”

Or, the Orlando shooting with the dance club. “It was a girlfriend/wife who motivated a husband to become radicalized with a politically motivated version of Islam that happened to not be so cool with gay people, so he shot up a night club.”

After the fact, we can see the motivations. We can make those claims. You can make reasonable claims in each case. These things do exist. But it does seem like an exercise, again the self-congratulation with having premature statements only 10-minutes after the event. Yet, you do not have the evidence coming in.

Kay: Anything when it comes to our official victims list. Our prime minister said the same thing about the jury trial of this Gerald Stanley when he was acquitted of killing this Indigenous man in the truck on his property.

He was acquitted. Our prime minister immediately said, “This is wrong. This should not have happened,” because the victim was an Indigenous man. If this was a white man, I do not think the trial would have made any impression on him whatever.

He immediately assumed the verdict was wrong. He assumed that it must have been a biased verdict. I read the judge’s verdict. I think the jury acted in accordance with the judgments. This is the thing: you will have this victim status according to your collective.

If you are on the victim list, this guy that got killed – it is tragic that he got killed. But he was coming onto the property to rob or steal a car or something.

3. Jacobsen: Was he there with more than one person?

Kay: Yes, they had a flat tire. They were trying to steal a car or something. Then they had just come from ripping off another property owner. But the fact that there was criminal intent was totally irrelevant to anyone; they were totally focused on an Indigenous man killed by a white man.

That people would not have cared if the guy had set fire to the man’s house. It was like the Trayvon Martin case. Obama: “If I had a son, he would have looked like Trayvon.”

Hundreds of black children are being killed every single day by black shooters. Obama never opened his mouth once about any of them. But the minute a black person is killed by either a white cop or some white person. Then it is “look at what a racialized society we live in.” Again, it is the “I am on the side of right.”

It is Michelle Obama holding the “Bring back our girls” thing for Nigeria. The hashtag is over and then they are forgotten about. It is a real impulse to express narcissism. It is very narcissistic.

4. Jacobsen: If I recall correctly, at the beginning questions of the interview, you noted still having a religious life.

Kay: I am not religious in the practicing sense. But I am culturally and civilizationally [Laughing] very attached to my Jewish roots and Jewish concerns. To me, the defense of Israel is a very important part of my life.

So, the thing about Judaism unlike most religions is the religious aspect or belief aspect of it is not as important in it. Being Jewish is being part of a people, peoplehood is much more important to most Jews than what your actual beliefs are, or whether you drive on the Sabbath or do not.

That sort of thing. I would say that that is sort of central to my life.

5. Jacobsen: Does God play a role in your belief system around this?

Kay: That is what I mean by belief systems. I am agnostic in my intellectual approach. But I would like to believe; my heart tells me that there is something in my history. Something in the history of the world that there is purpose going on.

That this is not for nothing. I cannot accept a nihilistic view: “There is no God. It is just a quirk of our consciousness. That we invented Him. That He is just a projection of our hopes and dreams.” I do not know if that is true or not.

I act as though there is one. I try to act as though there is a God because I think it is a healthier way to live when you imagine that there is a transcendent power. That has created the ideals and the morality that you strive for.

I think that people must be aspirational to have a good life. It is hard to be aspirational. You know the Browning poem: “…a man’s reach should exceed his grasp, Or what’s a heaven for?”

Jacobsen: [Laughing] I like that.

Kay: So, how can your reach exceed your grasp if you think there is nothing here except yourself? It continues to be an ongoing adventure in my head [Laughing].

6. Jacobsen: Also, Wittgenstein used to talk about language games. Whether aware of it or not, when traditional religious individuals speak of a transcendent ethic and when the non-religious or the religiously unaffiliated speak of human rights, they exist at about the same level of analysis of the moral world, of how we should relate to one another as human beings – to ourselves and human beings around us.

When someone speaks of a transcendent ethic, they speak of a higher good, “What is God? God is good. God is the locus of all that is good. God has aseity. God is self-existent. He has x, y, and z attributes: omnibenevolence, omnipotence, and so on.”

When the secular or the religiously unaffiliated talk about their own ethic, they tend to reference universal human rights.

Kay: Yes! Where did they get that idea, I wonder? [Laughing]

Jacobsen: It amounts to an abstraction. Both seem to come out of a consensus. One from a religious text and community interpretation, and acceptance of interpretation. Another from cultural consensus, which finds itself in international documents like the UN Charter.

These amount to abstract notions of how we should relate to each other. These seem like the same level of analysis to me with regards to morals.

Kay: The idea of rights at all, where do you get such a notion except for Christianity or Judaism? The idea of individual rights, that did not come from nowhere. This is an outgrowth of Western civilization. Who else has individual rights encoded in their culture?

People talk about morality and doing unto others. “These would have come into man’s conscience without religion.” They would not. I once wrote an article of people who are atheist and say, “You can have a perfectly moral life without religion.” They would not.

You cannot separate them out. So, I remember I once wrote a column on people who are atheists and say, “You can have a moral life without religion.” My response, “Of course, you can!”

Jacobsen: Most theologians say this.

Kay: Yes. “In the same way, that a kid with a trust fund can lead a perfectly good life without going to work. But you did not get all these ideas of morality and being good to other people, and not wanting to put stumbling blocks before the blind and all of this stuff, out of thin air. You got this because your grandparents and forebears were Christians or Jews, or religious, because your culture is the outgrowth of Christianity in this case.”

Christianity in our legal system began with Judaism in Rome. But our general morality is a Christianity morality. The ideal is love. Love for one another. If you cannot have absolute love for one another, you can at least have fairness. You can have respect. There are entire cultures where there is no respect for individuals. There is only family honor.

I do not know what Buddhism says. I am glad I was not born in India with a caste system.

Jacobsen: Nobody wants to be a harijan.

Kay: But the arrogance of people who say, “No, no, no, all my ideas about morality, fairness, and justice. I got those by applying my reason. My reason alone told me that these are good things.” I am like “No.” The only reason that your “reason” seems like a good thing is that it came from the culture.

That reason should be preeminent. That religion and reason can co-exist. There are cultures where the idea of reason does not even come into it. The idea of logic and these Enlightenment ideas are not happening.

Do not tell me you deduced them from sheer reason, that did not happen.

7. Jacobsen: The premises in any deductive argument have content. There is a continual re-analysis of ethics over time. We do not have the Divine Right of Kings anymore. We got rid of that.

Kay: But we do have the idea of hierarchy. It can shift around, who is at the top of the hierarchy or not. The king was always supposed to represent the hierarchy, the father, and the order of things. The natural order of things. There must be something to rule.

We have substituted for the kings. We have substituted with constitutions for the kings. That is an advance, progress. But the idea of wanting the stability offered by a figurehead that represents the best, hopefully, the benevolent monarch.

Jacobsen: [Laughing] The virtuous individual, yes.

Kay: There are such things as benevolent monarchs. It is, in fact, better under a benevolent monarch than communism or a secular system that is utopian and will sacrifice the individual to this idea of perfectibility. I would much rather live under a monarch than under communism.

8. Jacobsen: I am reminded of a statement by Glenn Gould in one of his public broadcasts. Again, it was another throwaway comment [Laughing]. I am reminded of it now. He was talking about Bach. Basically, with Bach, people were transitioning from a romantic era into “an Age of Reason.”

He pauses, “An Age of Reason, there have been quite a lot of them” [Laughing].

Kay: [Laughing].

Jacobsen: The idea of our ethics coming out of thin air does seem naïve. It does amount to a form of naïve realism. What I see in the world is the “real world,” rather than what is the context in which this ethic arose, I remember some person – I forget who – who was mentioning the cultures that run a civilization seem like operating software.

It really simplifies the whole analysis if you are looking for a general heuristic in the way people use Evolutionary Psychology. You can get heuristics about human behaviour. Nothing high fidelity, but enough heuristics to get your head around it, rules of thumb.

In that analysis, if you look at the cultures within a civilization as operating software, you have the program that goes in and look at what comes out. GIGO, garbage-in garbage-out, what happens in particular cultures if you look at the operating system that they have?

If you look at theocratic systems, under Islamic rule, it does not look that fun, especially for women.

Kay: [Laughing] Yes, I am sure not.

Jacobsen: In the case, you mentioned family honor based on that book, Honor. Something that we completely skated through. Something three to five times the size of Canada. Women who have undergone clitoridectomy, infibulation, or female genital mutilation in general.

Kay: That is not even counting the women who were never even born because of sex-selective abortion because people want male children. That is not only under Islamic culture. That is under many other cultures as well.

It is a terrifying thing when you think about it.

Jacobsen: And nature goes for good enough. We evolved systems good enough for survival plus a little extra.

Kay: Yes, one of the big differences between conservatives and leftists. Leftists are working with ideology. Conservatives are working with a point of view. When you have a point of view, when you have a perspective, you are not rigid about what you expect the outcomes to be.

You have no expectation of perfection. You are not looking at a system and looking for perfection where everyone should fit. You are saying, “This can be improved. That can be improved. We can try. We can save this from the past because this worked. We can let go of that because it didn’t work.”

You never let the idea of perfection be the enemy of the good. You can work towards the good. But when you have another system saying, “We can achieve perfection, but we are going to have to sacrifice or change human nature. We are going to have to manipulate human nature to fit into this utopian world. That is when you get hell, true hell.”

So, you know what, Scott. I think I am fading [Laughing].

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Barbara.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Columnist and Journalist, National Post.

[2] Individual Publication Date: May 15, 2018 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/kay-two; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] B.A., University of Toronto; M.A., McGill University.

[4] Image Credit: Barbara Kay.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. In Conversation with Barbara Kay: Columnist and Journalist, National Post (Part Three) [Online].May 2018; 17(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/kay-three.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, May 22). In Conversation with Barbara Kay: Columnist and Journalist, National Post (Part Three). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/kay-three.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. In Conversation with Barbara Kay: Columnist and Journalist, National Post (Part Three). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A, May. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/kay-three>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “In Conversation with Barbara Kay: Columnist and Journalist, National Post (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/kay-three.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “In Conversation with Barbara Kay: Columnist and Journalist, National Post (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A (May 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/kay-three.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘In Conversation with Barbara Kay: Columnist and Journalist, National Post (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/kay-three>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘In Conversation with Barbara Kay: Columnist and Journalist, National Post (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/kay-three.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “In Conversation with Barbara Kay: Columnist and Journalist, National Post (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 17.A (2018):May. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/kay-three>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. In Conversation with Barbara Kay: Columnist and Journalist, National Post (Part Three) [Internet]. (2018, May; 17(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/kay-three.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2018-05-15

In Conversation with Barbara Kay (Part Two)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 17.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Thirteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: May 15, 2018

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 4,945

ISSN 2369-6885

In Conversation with Barbara Kay

Abstract

An interview with Barbara Kay. She discusses: the things the conservatives are doing right and wrong, and the things the liberals are doing right and wrong; the mono-lensing on issues; honor codes and hookup culture; Dr. Leonard Sax, Jerry Seinfeld, homosexual men and women, and hypermasculinity and hyperfemininity; inheriting Canadian democracy, the trajectory of the country.

Keywords: Barbara Kay, columnist, conservative, homosexual, honor, Jerry Seinfeld, journalist, Leonard Sax, liberal, multiculturalism.

In Conversation with Barbara Kay: Columnist and Journalist, National Post (Part Two)[1],[2],[3],[4]

1. Jacobsen: What do you see the conservative side of the political aisle in Canada doing wrong and right? What do you see the liberal side of the political aisle in Canada doing wrong and right?

Kay: Gee, that is a big question. The conservatives, they have a problem. They have support from two very distinct groups. One group, the social conservatives, would really like to see them take their concerns very seriously.

They cannot afford to take them too seriously because they do not constitute a critical mass as they do in the United States. They have to be cautious in how they tread on those issues. The other conservatives that they serve are other people more interested in fiscal responsibility, smaller government, beef up the military, reduce immigration or be more selective on immigration, all these concerns.

They do not care that much about the social conservative side. It is two distinct groups. The media and the general tenor of our nation are very liberal right now. It is very hard to beat against that current without looking like you are either racist or homophobic. All these mantras that bled out of the universities into our general culture.

They are very much present. There is a knee-jerk reaction to any conservative leader who says that they are going to be effective or change policy. I think for a leader like Andrew Scheer who is not charismatic and who is not really pushing policies that appeal emotionally to people.

If I were him, I would focus hard on making life better for veterans and the military. I would concentrate on beefing up Canadian cultural institutions. That you know everybody loves. I would talk about strengthening the family. I would not focus on taking sex ed. out of the schools or anything like that. I would say, “Families need to be stronger. Whatever is going to be good for families, I will be there. I think children need both parents more than the state. I want to make sure the parents who want to stay home with their kids, mothers who want to stay home with their kids, are going to be able to do that.”

Then, of course, everybody, especially liberals, would say, “Oh! That is so old-fashioned.” But ordinary people would say, “I like that.” So, they are not tapping into the middle. The Evangelical Christians, for instance, who do not like what they are seeing with the progressive agenda and having gender equality in everything.

Every board of directors having gender equality. They do not like the forced agenda. Trudeau’s knee-jerk instinct to reject anyone in the liberal caucus who does not believe in abortion on demand. They do not like that. But they get away with it because there is no pushback from the conservatives.

What are the liberals doing right? It depends. If you mean, what are the liberals doing right for themselves? [Laughing] Trudeau is going out and meeting the people and talking about Aboriginal rights, going to smudge ceremonies, getting all emotional about how we have to make things right, where we are guilty of this or guilty of that. People seem to like that.

It makes him seem like a compassionate person. People seem to like it. They seem to give him a lot of scope in spite of all the faux pas and the shallowness. His failure to understand what true evil is. He doesn’t understand about Iran. He doesn’t understand about ISIS. He doesn’t understand history.

He doesn’t understand the difference between evil empires and our own. He doesn’t seem to care about preserving or saving or helping Western civilization to survive as a civilization, but he is getting a free ride for some reason because the media still like him – or like him enough. I guess, they dislike conservatism far more.

It is far more important to oppose conservatism, so they cut him slack to a certain extent. He is still appealing to people. I guess, I am not the best political commentator. I do not understand it so much – how it is that our quiet majority does not seem to mind him. Unless, it affects them personally.

They accept that this is the way it is. I think we have a fairly passive population on the whole. So, [Sighing] I guess he is going to be re-elected. We do not have a strong conservative party right now. I am not being coherent here. This is not my strong suit.

2. Jacobsen: If I think about some of the statements that you have made over the last 60 of the total 85 minutes, so far, of the conversation, the things mentioned as pathologies.

Problems in public discourse amount to mono-lenses on individual citizens and, subsequently, groups. So, if someone focuses only on their sexuality as per that show Transparent, you have an individual focus, a laser scope focus, on one thing: sexuality and gender identity.

It begins to look bad in the sense that it lacks balance. Aristotle talked about this a long time ago with the virtues. Akin to “norms,” it is a boo word. You can’t use that term. But it bears repeating, I think. Also, with respect to some of the political discourse, people will identify as the Conservative Party of Canada or the Liberal Party of Canada, and so on.

If you talk to people individually, in my experience, you bring mid-sized issue after mid-sized issue. You talk to them. You ask them questions about them. You probe. I find people are a mix of these things.

But the slack someone might get, such as Justin Trudeau being our first legacy prime minister as George Bush Jr. was in the United States, he will be able to get away with a few more things in the public.

Also, the young are probably a big voting base for him. So, they tend to lean more to the liberal side with him. So, not only with the trans issues or the focus on political identities, or on sexuality – reiterating some of the discussion points so far, I note a single focus as a problem. People are more complicated than these things.

However, I do not know why there is a narrowing of focus. It might relate to that Twitter picture. That highlighted the self-segregation of people. It also relates to a large problem talked about before with the mosaic of Canada.

People will self-segregate. I think Aristotle’s ethics are relevant here because he talked about moderation as an important part of virtue. If we take any of the Canadian democratic values, which amount to somewhat international values and somewhat not, you have one value.

You have another value. They rub up against one another. You find that balance point that the general population, democratically, votes for. So, it seems like a large cognitive problem, in how people think about things.

I do not know why that is; that mono-lens on so many levels of analysis. That I am reflecting on what we have talked about so far.

Kay: I agree with you. If you talk to people as individuals, they will have one persona agree with the liberals on this and the conservatives on that. People are not monolithic at all. But they are – I used the word – “passive” before. I think that is the right word. People are so afraid of offending. We have taken in this idea by osmosis. That to be offensive is a kind of social crime.

So, people often say to me. “You are courageous because you say things that anger people.” I say, “I do not call that courage. Courage is when you say things that may end up with a knock at 2:30am in the morning where the secret police show up. That would be courage.”

My “courage” is that I don’t care if someone tweets, “Oh, that old bag Barbara Kay is at it again. With her stupid…” I do not care about that. It does not take courage to expose yourself to people on Twitter who hate you. I am not getting rocks through my window.

They think it courageous because I have discovered that many people, maybe most people, are very agitated by the thought of somebody calling them out publicly as “you’re a disgrace” or “you’re wrong” or “what you have said is hateful” or anything like that.

The thought of being publicly denounced. As they say, there is a greater fear of public speaking than of death. I read about that many years ago. I have no fear of public speaking, so I do not understand that at all. But I do understand because I was forced to understand that so many people will sit on their hands and be quiet rather than voice a sentiment that may bring them criticism or public censure.

They do not want to be unacceptable. They want to be accepted. We are very social people. It is considered courageous to speak against the general consensus. Oops – that is a tautology.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Kay: Our consensus now, the political consensus now, is, for example, if I were to say, “The residential schools are not the reason why Native people are having such a tough time. That is a contributing factor, perhaps. But it is by no means the most important reason.”

If I said that publicly – I am saying it to you, which is sort of public, if I said it on CBC, well, I did get fired from a radio show for saying something like that on a blog or in an interview with a non-mainstream program.

I did get fired from a radio show. It was fun. It was called Because News. It was a trivia news program. I used to be on a panel every few weeks. I was fired because I said something about Indigenous people which was considered politically incorrect enough to have me fired from the show.

I did not say anything that wasn’t arguably true or not at least up for discussion. But I didn’t need that job. I can see how terrified people can be that work in industries or in the entertainment industry. If you can lose your job by saying something that is reasonable but not allowed to be discussed, that is a, first of all, sad commentary on our society today.

But I think most people in one way or another, even if they are not public figures, have taken it in. They know what they are allowed to say and not allowed to say. They have taken it in. Because they are afraid someone will publicly say, “You are hateful.” They cannot bear to be singled out like that.

They won’t do it. Whether they fear losing their job or their status, or that someone will not like them anymore, whatever it is, it is hard for people to overcome that natural herd mentality.  I do not mean they are stupid. I mean people want the comfort of being accepted and to being members of good standing of their circle.

It is interesting. You read a book in life and it changes your concept of how you read the world. One of the best books that I ever read was Honor: A History by James Bowman. I was trying to research honor-shame societies.

Speaking of multiculturalism, we have people who come to us from areas, not just countries but whole entire areas governed by cultures of honor and shame. I do not think most people understand what an incredible difference growing up in that culture means.

To come here, where we have gotten rid of the idea of honor, which we no longer subscribe to. We used to. It was a different definition of honor. I wanted to understand, “What does honor mean to people when they talk about an honor killing? Why would someone kill another person over honor?”

In James Bowman’s book, he defined honor as the good opinion of those who are important to you.

Jacobsen: I like that.

Kay: Very simply, the good opinion of those who are important to you. People would say, “We should not call them honor killings. We should call them DIShonor killings.” I say, “No, you are confusing honor with morality.”

That is where we do not understand where people are coming from when they come from these societies. To us, we try to do what is moral and we say, “To punish your daughter because she wouldn’t wear the hijab, that is not moral, but it may have very much to do with your family’s honor.”

For example, the mafia have codes of honor that have nothing to do with morality. But soldiers also have a strong sense of honor and it does have to do with morality. When the marines, for example, say, “No marine left behind.”

They will put themselves at risk to save a dying brother, a dying marine. If they left a dying soldier, a dying marine, behind, they would feel ashamed, because it is part of their code. I sometimes think to myself, “To have an extreme code of honor and shame, that is no good. You do not want to be killing girls because they wear the hijab.”

Aqsa Parvez was killed because she refused to abide by her family’s traditional gender roles. She wanted to be free. She wanted to act like a Canadian teenager. She got killed. Her father and brother who went to jail for the rest of her lives over it.  They said, ‘We had to kill her. Our family’s honor was at stake.’

James Bowman also said Male honor and female honor are two different things. Male honor is always concerned with physical courage or courage. Female honor is always concerned with sexuality.

He said this is true instinctively. It has nothing to do with culture. Everybody has a built-in sense of honor and shame, but it can be bred out of a society. Our society, and I think this is one of the problems with our society, is that in realizing that our sense of honor had taken us too far, we got rid of honor altogether, not such a good thing.

Our sense of honor died after the First World War. That was a war entered into for honor’s sake, to honor the promises that were made. Millions of men died for nothing in the First World War, for nothing.

England didn’t need to go into that war.

Jacobsen: For honor.

Kay: They felt as though they had died for nothing. Our Western civilization turned against honor as a motivating force in public life. It still lives on in the military because militaries have to have a code of honor or they can’t function.

Who would go into the military if not for a sense of honor to serve the nation, you have to have a sense of honor. But apart from the military, our society has no sense of honor as a personal obligation. It is one thing to have too much honor, but to have no sense of honor at all is not good for a culture.

I think we should have some sense of the dignity that comes with that sense of “I have boundaries. I will do this. I will not do this.” It is a question of honor. We do not have that anymore. This is actually too big a discussion [Laughing] for this, but you wanted to know what was on my mind and what I think about when I think about society.

When I critique society, this, for me, is the fact that women have decided that they did not want to have anything to do with the normal, traditional, sense of female honor. It has been not good for our society at all.

It has not been good for male-female relations because women want men to still have a sense of honor, but they do not want to be told that they also have to have a sense of honor. So, we have this sense of men needing to be a gentleman, but women don’t need to be ladies.

The idea of the gentleman is the English idea of honor. It is chivalry. Chivalry was the western concept of honor. Bowman says honor in the Western sense was Christianity allied with honor that produced the chivalric code.

I admire your patience.

Jacobsen: It is an honorable thing.

Kay: [Laughing].

3. Jacobsen: When it comes to honor codes, this does seem reflected in some of the survey evidence based on, for instance, campus life. If you look at the satisfaction rates of men involved in “hookup culture” and women involved in “hookup culture,” the attitudes about it, especially after the experience, do not match up.

Kay: That’s right. That’s right.

Jacobsen: Men seem more okay with it than women.

Kay: They are. This is interesting. It goes back to the idea of honor. James Bowman, in his book, says, If you say to a man, ‘You’re sexually promiscuous. You’re a Lothario…’

Jacobsen: …[Laughing]…

Kay: …The man will just laugh because he won’t take that as an insult. But if you say to a man, ‘You’re a coward,’ he will take that as a terrible insult. If you touch on a guy’s courage, if you say, ‘You’re a coward,’ every guy will be upset by that.

If you say to a woman, to me for example, ‘You’re a coward, I will say, ‘You’re darn right. I am afraid of this. I am afraid of that.’ But if you say to a woman, ‘You are a slut,’ they will bristle. This is innate. A woman’s sexual selectivity is something that is sexual modesty.

I always felt sexual modesty was something innate in girls. If you left them alone, and if you do not tell them that they had to be anything, they are naturally protective of themselves, their bodies; it is not natural for them to just throw themselves out there, if you know what I mean.

To be selective, and to want to have their sexuality aligned with a feeling of intimacy and of being protected, because women are naturally at risk if they can’t trust, that’s what they want; but now, we have a hookup culture in which trust is not something that women are asking for, and they suffer for it.

Men are, yes, of course, satisfied with sex with no strings attached and plenty of it. They are satisfied with it. Women, at heart, want sex to have strings, emotional strings attached. I think they do. They smother their emotional instincts in order to participate in hookup culture.

All of the evidence shows they are not happy with hookup culture.

4. Jacobsen: I have two statistics from Dr. Leonard Sax. To the two statistics from Dr. Leonard Sax, I didn’t know this. But he notes homosexual men are, in a way, hypermasculine. Homosexual women are, in a way, hyperfeminine.

In other words, the men focus more on the variety and the quantity of the sexual experience. The homosexual women focus more on the relationship, the emotional connection, to that.

Kay: You know the joke about gay men and lesbian women. Question: What does a gay man bring on his second date? The answer: What second date? [Laughing]…

Jacobsen: …[Laughing]…

Kay: …What does a lesbian bring on a second date? A U-Haul.

Jacobsen: [Laughing] There you go.

Kay: [Laughing].

Jacobsen: There was a joke you reminded me when you talked about death and public speaking, which was from Jerry Seinfeld’s special, I Am Telling You For The Last Time. He said, “Basically, with being afraid of public speaking more than death with death as number two, that means people would rather be in the casket than giving the eulogy.”

Kay: [Laughing].

Jacobsen: There are some men who are like the U-Haul example. George Carlin, after he died, his partner at the time. They never married, his second “spouse,” but he would propose every week. This is supposedly hyper-countercultural guy. Okay?

Kay: [Laughing].

Jacobsen: He proposed every week at a random point. He would write love notes to her. Things like this. The woman was named Sally Wade. The name of the book was The Permanent Courtship of Sally Wade.

Kay: Awwwww.

Jacobsen: She said that she just wanted a one-night stand. Then she pauses, “At least that’s what I tell people.” She ‘thought’ it was supposed to be a one-night stand, but he showed up the next day with a pair of socks and a toaster [Laughing].

Kay: [Laughing] Very cute.

5. Jacobsen: So, up to now, we have covered family background, personal background, a variety of topics within the more or less North American landscape with one mention of professor Chomsky’s critique of postmodernism coming out of the “center of the rot” of postmodernism with France, but within this context I liked the note that you brought very early on in the conversation.

For most civilizations for most of history, the state was allied with an ethnic group. In other words, these were tribal. They were ethno-states in a lot of ways. With your critique of multiculturalism from one angle, what seems like the trajectory of the country?

Who will inherit Canadian democracy when we do not have a unified ethnic identity? In terms of values, people want to keep all of their values while not fully integrating, even if they are born into this country now.

Kay: I think people are tribal. Certainly, in places where you do not have a very reliable or trustworthy legal system, tribalism does come to the fore because people want to protect those nearest to them. The circles become bigger and bigger as you have proxies. The legal system is a proxy for settling disputes with other people.

I can relax. I do not have to feel tribal. If my neighbor harms me in some way, I will take them to court. But if we did not have courts that were honest or relatively honest, then I would have to surround myself with family.

Then we would have to make sure that we protect our own family. Most people are tribal. Like in Europe, who will inherit the country? It will be the people with the strongest investment in themselves and sense of themselves and are prepared to fight to impose their sense of how life should be and how society should be.

The ones who are willing to invest in themselves the most seriously in imposing their values on that society. If a society is strong in its values and pushes back against other groups that are trying to change it and say, “This is the way we are. This is the way it used to be here.”

As I said earlier in the discussion, my family came to this country with a culture and adapted. Others have a culture informed by their religion. They not only are maintaining that sense of themselves in their own enclaves, but some are saying, “We want the whole society to be like this. It would be more convenient for us if we didn’t have to go to your schools and learn what you want to teach us. We want to learn what we want to learn. It would be convenient for us if we didn’t have to watch half-naked women walking around the beaches. We are going to put our best efforts into making sure this happens. Because this is what we do. This is our ethos.”

Then you have an acquiescent and appeasing society that doesn’t quite know what to do with this attitude. They think this is another culture and “we have to appease and give into this.” This is what is happening in Europe.

A lot of people are saying this is alarmist talk.

I do not think this is alarmist talk. I think a bunch of societies in Europe are on the brink of civil war or of complete submission to a new way of life, where other value systems are given equal standing with the society that was once recognizably European. We used to know what we meant when we said, “European.”

What I used to think of European may not be European for much longer, certain parts of Europe it already isn’t. Sweden, it is very committed to multicultural policies. They are slowly submerged. There is only so much salt you can put into the water before it becomes something else.

I do worry a great deal about what is happening in Europe. I wonder if it is a prelude to what will happen here. We have very different histories and very different ways of immigration. I realize that. I am not saying that it is an exact parallel.

I do believe we are watching something happen in Europe that is rather cataclysmic and irreversible at this point. So, that is a great worry to me. I think to many Canadians it is as well. I know. It is certainly not a worry to our prime minister who takes a very sunny view” the more immigration the better and what could possibly go wrong since we all know that all cultures are exactly the same.

Jacobsen: It amounts to a lack of Theory of Mind about cultures in a way. It is the assumption that everyone thinks the same.  

Kay: Yes, again, it is this sense of narcissism. That what I grow up in is the norm. it is a failure to look at history and other cultures in a deeper sense. Politics is downstream from culture. I believe that is Andrew Breitbart. I do believe that. Not all cultures think the same; not all cultures are as good at creating societies in which the individual is the most important unit and has freedoms. Not all cultures think freedom of expression is a good idea. Not all cultures think freedom of association or equality of the sexes is a good idea.

It seems that I am stating the obvious. Yet, our government acts as though all cultures absolutely have the same values and, maybe, they have a few quirks. They eat different food or have somewhat different traditions, and rituals. It is all very trivial, these differences, they think.

That is the sort of understanding on which our prime minister bases his policies and outlook on life. I think he is living in la-la land. But in fact, since he heads up the government, this is the direction in which his government is directed to move.

That is the basic assumption in all of society. There is very little pushback to that.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Columnist and Journalist, National Post.

[2] Individual Publication Date: May 15, 2018 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/kay-two; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] B.A., University of Toronto; M.A., McGill University.

[4] Image Credit: Barbara Kay.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. In Conversation with Barbara Kay: Columnist and Journalist, National Post (Part Two) [Online].May 2018; 17(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/kay-two.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, May 15). In Conversation with Barbara Kay: Columnist and Journalist, National Post (Part Two). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/kay-two.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. In Conversation with Barbara Kay: Columnist and Journalist, National Post (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A, May. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/kay-two>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “In Conversation with Barbara Kay: Columnist and Journalist, National Post (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/kay-two.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “In Conversation with Barbara Kay: Columnist and Journalist, National Post (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A (May 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/kay-two.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘In Conversation with Barbara Kay: Columnist and Journalist, National Post (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/kay-two>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘In Conversation with Barbara Kay: Columnist and Journalist, National Post (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/kay-two.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “In Conversation with Barbara Kay: Columnist and Journalist, National Post (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 17.A (2018):May. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/kay-two>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. In Conversation with Barbara Kay: Columnist and Journalist, National Post (Part Two) [Internet]. (2018, May; 17(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/kay-two.

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2018-05-08

In Conversation with Barbara Kay (Part One)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 17.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Thirteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: May 8, 2018

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 8,921

ISSN 2369-6885

In Conversation with Barbara Kay

Abstract

An interview with Barbara Kay. She discusses: her origin story; later Hebrew studies; cultural trends, and Jewish upbringing and culture; raising children; Canada, identity politics, and multiculturalism; pitting one group against another by accident; integration; Academia and its problems; policy, evidence, and rapidity of change; narcissism, culture, and identity; the “Hollywood pathology”; Monty Python and Noam Chomsky; moral grandstanding; sexual misconduct and being upright compared to being kept upright; information siloes; and social media.

Keywords: Academia, Barbara Kay, columnist, Hollywood, Jewish, journalist, Judaism, multiculturalism, Noam Chomsky, sexual misconduct.

In Conversation with Barbara Kay: Columnist and Journalist, National Post (Part One)[1],[2],[3],[4]

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Let us start at the beginning like a superhero origin story.

Barbara Kay: [Laughing].

Jacobsen: What was family upbringing and background, e.g. geography, culture, language, religion, or lack thereof?

Kay: I grew up in Toronto. My father was a first generation Canadian from an immigrant Polish family. He was born here, but some of his older brothers and sisters were not. He grew up very poor. He established himself as a young man as dynamic and entrepreneurial. He was a salesman and had his own factory.

By the time I grew up, we were living in upper-middle class, very fortunate surroundings in Forest Hill village, which is known as a [Laughing] very privileged enclave. That is where I grew up. I am Jewish. I grew up surrounded by my cultural and religious peers in that enclave. I went through the Forest Hill Public School System.

It was unusual in Toronto. In that, the school had a mostly Jewish population. People like myself: middle-class Jewish kids. Although Forest Hill, itself was not particularly Jewish as a neighbourhood. It was just that most of the non-Jewish kids went to the private schools.

We had the public-school systems [Laughing] to ourselves. It was a terrific environment to grow up in because we were all the children of striving, upwardly mobile parents who had a very strong work and self-improvement ethic.

We were well-disciplined children. We had very good teachers. In those days, the Forest Hill system was not part of the whole Metro system. They could hire their own teachers. If I recall, they paid higher. I know that in high school several of my teachers had master’s degrees, even a few with PhDs.

It was a good education. We had an incredible outcomes rate, in terms of how many people graduated and wrote the provincial exams and did very well. A very high, unusually so, number of our graduates went on to university.

I went to university from 1960-64. My undergraduate years, in those days, I believe that only about 8% of the population went to university. Of those 8%, perhaps only a quarter of those may have been women, if that.

From my high school, many girls, went on to university. Pretty well all the boys went. So, I had a very unusual education in that respect, but it did not seem unusual to me. I am the middle child of three girls. We were all expected to go to university, and did.

Nobody I knew had parents who didn’t expect their sons at least to go to university, and many their daughters as well. In that sense, I had an extremely privileged education and cultural background. I would say feminist before its time in a certain way: some ways yes and some ways no. I do not know how much detail you want me to get into about the culture in the broader sense [Laughing].

Culturally speaking, it was kind of an unusual situation. We girls were very much encouraged to exercise our intelligence in the widest possible framework. We were lauded and approved and, in every way, encouraged to go on to higher education in, well, whatever we wanted to do.

At the same time, we got a double message: Get an education, but also “Find somebody young, get married, settle down, have a family.” The most important cultural value that my parents espoused, and so did everybody else I knew, was family.

A stable family was the highest value. At the same time, educational status, maybe, it was not the education itself that they valued and maybe it was the status that came with it, but, in some sense, it was a contradictory message.

I was not encouraged to have a career, but the education was encouraged for me. I took up a subject that really interested me, even though it was unlikely to provide me a career. So, my first choice was Classical Studies with an English option.

Latin with an English option was the name of the course. It was an Honors course at the University of Toronto. I majored in Latin. Could you choose a more useless subject? [Laughing]

Jacobsen: [Laughing] Unless, you want to enter the theological disciplines.

Kay: Yes, exactly, [Laughing] I was not intending to enter Theology. I did Latin. I had a wonderful high school Latin teacher. She inspired me. For two years, I was in Classical Studies with English Literature, then I transferred fully into English Literature. I loved novels. I loved to read novels.

I had no idea what I was going to do with that degree. I was subliminally looking around. I was dating guys thinking, “Is this the guy I am going to marry? Is that the guy?” Because I figured I would be married by the time I graduated; otherwise, that would be quite embarrassing [Laughing]. I was figuring “Wow, I am getting old. This better happen.” And also I had this degree in English Literature.

I was not planning to go into higher studies, but I got a very coveted fellowship: the Woodrow Wilson Fellowship. I applied for that on a lark. Somebody dared me to, so I did and got it. That paid for my higher education. It paid for a master’s degree at any university in North America.

It paid full tuition plus living expenses. So, I was accepted wherever I applied. I was accepted at Stanford, University of Chicago, and all these wonderful places. But I got engaged, so I ended up going to McGill for my master’s degree because my husband was getting his Master of Business Administration at McGill. So, naturally, the choice was made for me.

That was my upbringing.

Jacobsen: Also, you did not choose graduate to specialize in Hebrew or Aramaic along with the Latin [Laughing].

Kay: No, I did not, but I did go to Hebrew school when I was young – after school Hebrew school twice a week and Sunday mornings. So, I did have a grounding in Hebrew as well, which, by the way, later in life, served me well when I did go back to Jewish Studies at McGill and did take up Hebrew Studies, so I would be more competent.

2. Jacobsen: What inspired that move back into education for Hebrew Studies later in life?

Kay: I got very involved – I had never been estranged from religious life. We had a typical upbringing. My parents had come from very religious families. My mother was from Detroit. Her family was more modern Orthodox for their day. My father’s family was extremely Orthodox and very much in the old-fashioned sense. His father had a beard.

My grandfather in Montreal never actually learned English. So, all the 9 children – my father was the youngest of 9 children – stayed very attached to Jewish life, but they all became integrated into Canadian society. So, instead of Orthodox, they were all members of conservative shuls – synagogues – as were we.

I went through a religious phase in high school. I wanted to be more Orthodox. I had a boyfriend who was very Orthodox. For several years, I was immersed in reading about Judaism and Jewish history. I had a penchant. Religious life is important. It has a very strong effect on our culture, whether we are religious or not.

Then I drifted away from practicing observant Judaism. But I always remained attached to my religion in a cultural sense. When we had children in Montreal, we joined a more liberal synagogue. I was always very interested in Judaism as a civilization.

I stayed very interested, and became very Zionist. I was motivated to go back to Jewish Studies because I knew that I wanted to go to Israel. I had never been there. I wanted to go with my family. I wanted to speak Hebrew when I got there.

Jacobsen: [Laughing] Show-off.

Kay: Ya! I put in the time. When I got there, I could carry on a modest conversation in Hebrew. That is all gone now. It is dormant. But I can read Hebrew for liturgical purposes. It is fine.

3. Jacobsen: I note some trends in the cultural background provided by you. The work ethic and the value in education, especially higher education, as well as the emphasis on family and children in addition to the religious traditions that encapsulate those.

When I think about the cultures that value family and marriage, those are the ones that last a long time, whether Navajo, Hopi, Chinese, or Jewish cultures – even with the changes in geography and time. There is a certain wisdom in the tradition that you were brought up in terms of building that long-term culture.

Something, that you did not necessarily state, but I note in conversation with others. It is the deep ties between and amongst generations within that culture. So, the elders, the middle-aged, and the young have a mutual respect. The elders in terms of having a long-term knowledge about the world.

The middle-aged in terms of likely being more involved in things in that culture. The young in terms of having a fresh perspective on things. Those are deep ties important for long-standing cultures to persist.

Kay: I do think my background stands for what you are talking about. It is a strong strain. I think a normative strain in Jewish culture. There are other, perhaps, marginalized types of Jewish backgrounds. Some come from the anti-establishment, Jewish culture of the Bundhists that came from Europe. They were very anti-religion.

But they were very pro-Jewish culture. They were very immersed in “Yiddishkeit”: Yiddish literature and all that. Many were part of the Communist Party. They were very active in the communist movement. That is the movement that David Horowitz was involved in, in his youth. The radical leftist who became the radical rightist [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Kay: The Red Diaper, that was a whole strain of Jewish culture. We were not that. We were the bourgeois, the broad path. That, yes, family is very important. My parents’ generation, there was a huge break. Their parents were European Jews. There was a break with those traditions in the sense that they wanted very badly to integrate into American and Canadian society.

The ties to my grandparents’ generation were much more tenuous for me. My children had a strong relationship with their grandparents. I did not. One came from a European world that was well lost in the Holocaust. He got out well before that. But that whole way of life that he practiced: that is gone.

My more modern grandparents in Detroit? I just did not see them enough to form strong bonds. But in the next generations, it is very, very different. Something like the Chinese and Indians. They have strong family bonds and strong mothers. Our role models, I would say Jewish mothers are very powerful in their homes.

Even in my mother’s generation where it was not usual for a mother to work, they were still extremely powerful figures in the home. They were active in the community. They were involved in fundraising, Jewish culture, or book clubs. They themselves were also striving for higher education or school. Many were trying to get their degrees.

When I was, for instance, raising my children, I was very happy to be an at-home mother. I still think that the luckiest children have their mothers at home. I am not saying that they become better people. They are usually happy children.

Because that is what children want. I wanted that too. I wanted that for myself. I did not want anyone else raising my children. But most of my friends, it was the same. Every single one of my friends – once the kids were in school full-time – ended up doing something very interesting, went back to school and became psychologists, or opened a book store, or started a clothing line, or got seriously into volunteer fund-raising at a professional level, or whatever.

I do not know any that simply sat around at home. This Feminist Mystique idea, that women were sitting around in their suburban homes drinking because they had no purpose in life. I did not see any of that. That was supposed to be my generation.

People like me or a little older than me. I do not know any Jewish woman who felt that sense of “What am I doing in my life? I have no purpose.” Nothing like that. They were all doing interesting things, even if they were not making a lot of money.

Although, some of them did [Laughing]. They are in real estate or something. The push to succeed, I know Jewish women who made homemaking a tremendous art. Being able to invite 20 people over for Sabbath dinner and say, “Yes, I did it all myself and cooked everything.”

For several women I know, this is a point of tremendous pride. I see nothing wrong with that. To be able to do and create a home where this type of hospitality is the norm, his is an amazing thing. Their children turn out to be socially well-adjusted.

They love the home life of warmth and the circle of community, where you feel that you are part of something larger than the nuclear family. This is a gift that you give children. I was never like that. In that, [Laughing] I never enjoyed having 16 people over at the drop of a hat.

But I did enjoy having my children as part of something larger than themselves.

4. Jacobsen: It shows up in most of the research for decades, too. Children in two-parent households tend to do better. If both parents are encouraged into education, as they were encouraged and allowed with the subtext of mother as an essential role for the woman, then the children also do better than others too.

In terms of the social development, you can have a bunch of gifted kids with IQs 130+. If they are social train wrecks, that intelligence will not get them as far as they would otherwise.

Kay: An environment where curiosity is encouraged and satisfied is good, where you are encouraged to push the envelope. One thing about Jewish families – not sure about Chinese or Indian families, it is very verbal and a very combative atmosphere, sometimes.

We argue a lot. Jews argue a lot. They hone their critical skills by testing each others’ arguments. It is sometimes an unruly atmosphere, very forthright and candid. It is very hyper-alert.

I am making it sound very positive. Sometimes, it is very negative. Jews are more neurotic, more anxious, more aggressive verbally, and very social, but in an intense way. That is often not very relaxing for other people.

I remember when I was young. Most of my friends were Jewish. When I had a non-Jewish friend, I wanted to cultivate her. I was fascinated by non-Jewish kids. They seemed very exotic. I am talking about WASP kids, who to other WASP kids are the least interesting people they know.

I would go to their homes and feel a peacefulness there, which I would not feel at my own home because there was a tension there. It was the same for most of the homes of the people that I knew; I had non-Jewish friends, who I found exotic.

I found that there was not this constant sense of striving, which I find among Jews. A kind of subliminal anxiety about missing something, missing a chance to not miss out on anything. It is also – my own interpretation – that you are always looking for social cues from others to make sure you are fitting into the group.

I am talking about integrated Jews like myself, who are very keen and very intent on fitting into the larger society. Looking back, I was not aware of myself as feeling so very different or so very much less sure of myself, culturally.

Now, I realize. We were all very unsure and trying very hard to feel both natural and feel accepted, and feel like we were fitting into something bigger, and often wondering if we were ‘making the grade.’

There was a cultural push-pull all the time. Always, always, we were looking for that subliminal sense: “are they anti-Semitic? Are they anti-Semitic?” You do not ask. I was never made the ‘butt’ of some joke.  People were not saying anything nasty to me.

You knew. Jews became good at reading facial expressions, tones of voice, because we all have our radar out and our antennae are always very Woody Allen.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Kay: He is an exaggeration, but he taps into that kind of nervousness that my generation felt. Obviously, it is less in my kids’ generation.

Jacobsen: It sounds like perennial existential angst.

Kay: It is! It is an angst. It is something we all have until we were old enough, until I was old enough to examine myself. We did not have identity politics at that time. The whole ethos then was “be grateful you are here and fit in! Do not ask for special consideration. In fact, prove that you’re worthy, prove that you are worthy by being worthier than everyone else.”

That was the whole educational thing and the striving and overachieving. That you want to be so good, not just good enough, so that your place was assured at the table. It is ironic when I see all this identity politics stuff, when I see people who expect entitlements, but do not expect to have to in any way pay a price for those entitlements.

In fact, you get special consideration because you are not the heritage Canadian or heritage American. You deserve that special consideration because you have been disadvantaged in the past or because of racialization. All these different things.

I look back and say, “Wait a minute, I had a 2,000-year history of persecution. But it would never occur to my parents, or to me, to say, ‘Because of what happened in the past to my people, I, therefore, should get some affirmative action or some kind of…’ No, no, just do not put obstacles in our paths. If you do not put obstacles in our path, you will see. Give us a chance. We will perform for you.”

We are a very performative people. (I do not like the word ingratiate.)

Jacobsen: [Laughing] We have the angst to prove it.

Kay: We have the angst to prove it. I am living proof [Laughing].

5. Jacobsen: With identity politics as a more modern phenomenon, it seems to come, in some cases for simplistic shorthand, out of good intent. On the other hand, in more and more cases, it seems to come from, not necessarily bad intent but, good intentions gone too far leading to negative consequences for more people than would be preferable because everything balances within a multicultural, pluralistic, democratic society such as Canada.

Kay: Multiculturalism is, I think, one of those good intentions philosophies that is rather pernicious and very self-defeating for a nation. It is an experiment that has never happened before. Most nations in the world, until very recently, had nation and culture as the same.

Most nations came out of ethnicity. So, democratic countries that are based on a creed, in a common belief system, rather than race or ethnicity. This is still very much an experimental form of national cohesion.

It is wonderful and good. That was the country that my grandparents came to, which was a country that believed in everybody contributing to and adopting the same principles and adapting. In many cases, it was shedding certain parts of your culture that did not fit into the mainstream idea of what this culture was about.

I thought, “That’s fair. That’s fair.” This is a country that my grandparents came to for more opportunity and freedom. There is a price to be paid for that, to a certain extent, culturally. If you are going to all fit in and be together, it makes sense that in the public forum that there is a certain harmony and unity.

You build up trust when everybody in the public forum knows the rules and knows social cues, and knows the basic values and the basic principles. That sounds like a good arrangement.

Multiculturalism is basically saying, “First of all, we think of you as a member of the group rather than an individual Canadian. We ask nothing of you in terms of adopting our values or our principles. Just be yourselves and be what you are. Here are your rights, we are not asking you to make any changes at all. Certain cultural extremes we have to resist, yes, but it has to be pretty extreme before our government springs into action to do anything about it.”

I think it is a bad experiment. I don’t think it works. We have had 3 or 4 heads of state in Europe say, publically, ‘Multiculturalism is a failure.’ I have no resentment that my family was told, “Adapt, start looking like we do, start acting a lot like we do, you will fit in.”

That is what we did. I do not think anyone regrets it. I am perfectly happy not to be speaking Yiddish instead of English [Laughing]. If I were living the life of my grandfather when we came here, I would be living in a little ghetto and very fearful and very much uninterested in what went on outside of my little neighbourhood.

I do not think that is great. I am not saying most people do not integrate after a generation or two. That should be the rule. That should be the expectation.

6. Jacobsen: Singapore took that model. Lee Kuan Yew made an explicit intrusion in public life. People, depending on what flat they were in, had to live in pre-segmented society. You live with this proportion of this ethnicity, this religion, and so on.

So, everyone got some relative exposure. Canada, as per the common ‘mosaic’ analogy, amounts to that. It has that fragmentation within its own borders. Cultures self-segregate, that does not help cohesion.

Kay: It sets one group against another, because the idea is that there is something almost holy about everyone else’s culture but our own. Our prime minister said, “Canada has no culture.” He said, “We are post-national/post-cultural.”

Anyways, he basically said that we do not have our own culture and are a collection of other people’s cultures. I think this is undermines national unity to take that view. I’m not a big fan, as you can see, of multiculturalism.

I like cultures that perpetuate what is best of what they came with. My children got a good Jewish education. Their children got a good Jewish education. But I do not expect that to be subsidized or catered to by the government.

Anyways, I think the old model – the ‘melting pot’ – was better.

7. Jacobsen: You noticed the nuance there with respect to family background. On the one hand, they kept much of their culture. However, they gave up parts of their culture to self-integrate into the larger culture.

It seems similar to having English as the main public language. It allows you to not only access the nation but also the international community as well.

Kay: It is interesting. Other cultures should influence our culture. Once you have many immigrants coming, and I love the idea of immigrants coming, it will inevitably change the society, but it should happen in an organic way.

I was in New York with a friend. I was talking about some TV shows. I was talking about New York City. I said, “New York is such a Jewish city, certainly in its entertainment. You do not even know in a TV show, like Seinfeld, who was Jewish. Did you know Elaine was not Jewish, for instance?”

They said, “Really?” I said, “No, Elaine Benes was not Jewish. George Costanza, I wasn’t even sure. Was he Italian? Was he Jewish?” [Laughing]

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Kay: “Kramer could have been anything” [Laughing]. But the thing is the sensibility because New York has so many Jews there. It developed a Jewish sensibility and sense of humor. It happened organically because there are so many. But it is a very American city as well.

But it isn’t like Cincinnati or Salt Lake City. Every city achieves its own character. Toronto is now very multicultural. When I grew up, it was so WASP, so WASP. It is multicultural, but in a good way in the sense of everybody mixing it up organically.

That part is good. I like that. What I do not like is the ideology around it, I do not like what is happening in the universities. I do not like the self-hatred, the guilt, the excessive guilt. This anti-whiteness, this whole colonial thing is very exaggerated. The shame at “our” imperialist past. It wasn’t mine [Laughing].

This is a very unhealthy part of our society.

8. Jacobsen: I want to use this to segue into the university system. Academia, to use passive language, has problems. How is that for a vague, passive statement?

Kay: Academia has big problems. The problems of academia are very much seeping into the institutional life beyond academia. We are well beyond academia now. Academia has had problems for decades and decades. All of the people that created those problems have graduated students who are bringing those problems into their jobs and careers, and creating all of the problems in our institutional life.

You do not need me to elaborate on all the origins of this, because Jordan Peterson can do it a lot better [Laughing]: feminism, identity politics, intersectionality, and so on. It has well shut down the kind of freewheeling life of intellectual discovery that I was privileged to enjoy at the University of Toronto in the 1960s.

Because, at that time, the universities were expanding. There was a lot of money for great professors. We had prestigious professors from England and America. There was no politics in the teaching. To me, it was what a university is supposed to be. I feel a sense of privilege in having been a part of that, the Golden Age of higher education.

But I am sure that you have had many interviews with people who have gone into the academic rot that we are living with now.

9. Jacobsen: It comes inside of and outside of the academic institutions. I find that as a common story. Over time, I notice the similar phenomena of one set or sub-set having legitimate good intents while another set having legitimate bad intents leading to bad consequences by its very nature.

It amounts to an ideological movement in that one sub-set. A very active sub-set, one thing that should make people suspicious, in general, is the fact that the empirical research moves slowly. The empirical research should inform the policies and, therefore, the political climate should be informed by it.

Of course, personalities happen, historical inertia, influence how politics ‘plays out.’ However, the empirical world moves much more slowly. If something moves fast in policy, I would have my antennae up because the empirical research doesn’t move that fast.

If someone is trying to move something hard and fast in policy, I would remain suspicious because it is probably coming from an ideological position regardless of the empirical support for it.

Kay: Yes, I agree with you. I think we have seen some policies come into play over the last 5 years or so with, say, the trans activist movement. I have never seen policies move so fast in my life. It has been such a whirlwind of activism.

It is like a machine. Suddenly, we have gone from barely understanding the nature of what this is, gender dysphoria, to all the sudden we have laws in place that do not allow parents to take their child to a psychologist or a psychiatrist.

You have laws in place that insist that a child’s parents do not have a say if the child takes hormones or puberty blockers. In British Columbia, you have this program called SOGI being taught in the schools, SOGI 123. It is not based in science or research at all.

It is based totally an ideology. I think it is an extremely harmful program for children – to basically ask them to deny themselves, to deny their own biological reality. To teach them that they cannot trust their own sense of who they are or link it to their own biology – insisting that they recognize gender as something that is floating around and totally fungible.

I am so shocked by the rapidity with which this movement has installed itself in pedagogical hierarchies and the social services. I have a friend who is an endocrinologist, a real scientist. He said, “If somebody comes to me and asks for puberty blockers, for a kid, I cannot say, ‘Maybe, you should get a psychiatric evaluation before you go forward with this.’ I could lose my job over that.”
Pediatricians and endocrinologists have their hands really tied. He said this is really bizarre because 5 years ago he could, but now he can’t. I think that if I had a child being infected by this social contagion, which is what it is, I would feel that I was in a Kafkaesque nightmare.

Many parents probably feel this way. In fact, they do. I have talked to many parents. They feel as though their child has been body-snatched. They are being indoctrinated into a very pernicious ideology that seeks to normalize something that is highly abnormal.

That is rare and abnormal. To banalize it, and to make it something on a spectrum that everybody is on, it is just a matter of choice. That your body is irrelevant to your sense of identity, which is an amazing thing to be teaching children.

Children should be taught to be comfortable in their bodies. All – not all we have – we are is our bodies. To be saying, “Your body is irrelevant to your true identity.” To tell a child that, it is like saying, “Your mother and father seem to be your mother and father, but in reality they might be total strangers.”

I think it is so destabilizing and could be so traumatic for a child, frightening. These are the people that are suddenly the authorities in our schools. It is like “Who do the children belong to?” They belong to the state in terms of gender. Sex and gender are such an obsession in our society.

I feel a little Kafkaesque myself [Laughing], having grown up in a society in which sex is one part of your life; it is not your whole life. There are other things out there besides your sexuality and your gender issues. Today, it is as if there is nothing else.

That and your race, of course, that’s it! That is who you are.

10. Jacobsen: Christina Hoff Sommers had a great statement, which was almost a throwaway statement. She is from AEI. She is part of what I call the “three angels” from AEI: Dr. Sally Satel, Caroline Kitchens, and Christina Hoff Sommers.

It was a throwaway comment, but an astute statement. She noted the kinds of self-absorption involved in some of these movements. It is tough at times to have the discussion. It is inflammatory to a lot of people.

That is one protection against any kind of critical examination. Also, the mushing together, like a bunch of hot potatoes, of the phrases, the terminologies, the definitions. For instance, I can make this a little bit more concrete.

If you look at the cases of sexual orientation, people will consider this physiological-sexual arousal towards the opposite sex, same sex, or both, akin to one’s general identity. So, let’s have the child consider themselves a purple dragon, the mushing together of that general identity.

This large abstract world set of concepts gets mushed together with something more well-defined such as physiological arousal for men, women, or both.

Kay: It is a culture of narcissism. Christopher Lash called it a “Therapy Culture,” or was that Theodore Reik? We are living in a culture that is so self-absorbed and so consumed with this idea of identity. That is the only thing that matters in life.

Sometimes, I feel like I want to say, “Do you have any idea the kind of suffering that has gone on in history? You have to be living in a golden bubble to think that this is the most important thing in life: who you are attracted to, how much you are attracted, how you feel today, if you feel more boy or girl, and all that stuff. Do these people have no sense of history and how narcissistic they are?”

Have you seen the series Transparent? I am watching it. I am amazed by it. It is a very well-written, very well-acted production. The production value and everything is great. Every single character, except one who is a rabbi, thinks all day, every day, about sex, gender, and how they look, how they present, who they are attracted to, kinky sex, traditional sex, and sex with husbands, without husbands.

A wife leaves a husband because she has a sexual encounter with a lesbian. She leaves a husband and two children the same day that she was kissed, without a plan. The whole point of the series seems to be to absolutely normalize this as perfectly fine.

This is the way people are. This is all they think about. All they want to think about and we should be sympathetic to this. I find it a very unsettling world, particularly since it has gotten such adulatory reviews. People are swooning over this series.

I am riveted by it. It is riveting. It is worth seeing because it is riveting for the acting and intelligence of the scripts, but it is a very scary series because it captures so accurately the narcissism of our culture. It is quite shocking.

Jacobsen: That seems like a particular Hollywood pathology.

Kay: It doesn’t have a Hollywood vibe to it. In the sense that, it is far more intelligent than a typical Hollywood movie. It does present some of the dark side too. It is not an advertisement for being trans. It shows you the dark side of this culture.

It shows you the dark side of lesbian culture. So, it is very fair in many ways. It is very harsh, in some ways, the view of these worlds, but the one thing it does seem to say, and to say with no judgment, is that people who are consumed with sex all the time are, basically, sympathetic people and represent a slice of normal middle-class life in its own way.

It is also supposed to be – and I also started watching because it is very Jewish – about a Jewish family. Some say it is “the most Jewish show on television.” I say, “No, no, I don’t think so” [Laughing].

Yes, they are noticeably Jewish in their social presentation and verbal animation, very Jewish, in their outward appearance. They do have a lot of activities that revolve around Jewish life, but no. For one thing, there is this total lack of modesty. This total lack of respect for a certain physical decency I associate with being Jewish. The whole thing to me, or at least in the Judaism I was brought up in, is shrieking the opposite.

What it is, it is the cultural appropriation of Judaism to serve the ideology of progressivism. What it is, it has taken a Jewish form as a vessel for progressive content and has said, “This is a Jewish family.” But it isn’t. It is a progressive family that is exploiting the Jewish tropes for entertainment and ideological purposes.

11. Jacobsen: That is more what I meant by the shorthand of “Hollywood pathology.” You can’t have an award show. You must make a self-congratulatory, social activist award show.

Kay: Right, right.

Jacobsen: Most people are for many of the more moderate claims of social activism. We should try to help people in worse circumstances in your neighbourhood. Things like this. It is the false presentation of a pseudo-norm as the norm, which bothers many people.

Kay: By the way, to use this word, “norm,” is very subversive, you realize that.

Jacobsen: [Laughing] Same with “virtue.”

Kay: I learned long ago. I always thought “norm” was something quantitative. In other words, if 95% of a population has dark eyes and hair, then you would say, “The norm in this country is dark hair and eyes.” I wouldn’t expect the 5% of people who have blue eyes to be calling me “blue-eye-o-phobic.”

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Kay: [Laughing] But really, the use of the word norm in the old says. If someone said, “Is he gay?” You would say, “No, he is normal.” You could never say that now. So, norms are a bad word because we accept the idea of fluidity, of all boundaries being collapsed so that there are no norms.

I think Jordan Peterson is right to say that this is a way to take power away, because a norm has power. In the sense that, the norm is what is the default. You have to take power away from white people because this is the norm.

Power has to go somewhere. So, if you take it away from one group, then another group is going to get it. That is okay with the ideologues.

The norm is socially speaking and culturally speaking bourgeois and middle-class home and family. All this is the norm. This is what ideologues hate. Their activism is about undermining the whole idea of normal.

That way, if everything is so fluid, it does take your power away. The ground shifts under your feet, then you are not sure of anything. The pronouns became such a huge issue because it stripped the idea that there is a norm for the language.

Language is – or should be – dependable and reliable. “They” is the plural of “he” or “she.” It is unnerving and meant to be unnerving.

I keep referring to Jordan Peterson because I feel he is so famous for articulating so many of the inchoate emotions, the anxiety and angst, that we are all feeling as we see what we thought were dependable cultural norms being deliberately collapsed.

The idea is to make people who thought they were normal feel in a sense abnormal because there is no normal anymore. Then to question your identity, to question everything, especially the family unit because the family unit is the one thing that the state knows they cannot truly fight, people are loyal to their families and not to the state.

So, the less family life there is then the more the state can intrude on the individual’s life. This is where this utopianism comes into play. Ideologies that are anti-family have a utopian view of the world. It is perfectible. But to get to this perfectible state, they have to mess a lot of people’s lives up.

We cannot have institutions that guard their own privacy. Their own standards. Their own values. These are enemies of the state. We are certainly rambling! [Laughing]

12. Jacobsen: This is good. You made me think. With regards to the prior statements as well as the “Hollywood pathology,” I am reminded of two things. One, a clip from Life of Brian of Monty Python. Another one, a statement by Noam Chomsky about the French pathology.

With regards to the former point, I note the scene where one of the characters. They are sitting in a coliseum or a stadium of the time. One of them says, “I want to be a woman.” John Cleese says, “You can’t be a woman.”

This begins to rise in tension and as the conversation develops. One of them says, “I want to have a baby.” John Cleese says, “You can’t have a baby. You don’t have a womb!”

Kay: [Laughing].

Of course, the male who feels like a woman begins to cry. Plus, we add technology on top of it, medical technology. We have medical technology to do, apparently, relatively precise surgery to cut up physical appearance in some way.

People will make those kinds of statements as the male that felt like the woman cried, more boldly. That is the first point. I love that scene. To the professor Chomsky point, with regards to the French pathology, he noted that with postmodernists in that area.

Jacques, Lacan, Foucault…

Kay: Derrida, Foucault, and all that gang.

Jacobsen: Yes, all that gang, that amounts to a French pathology with complete deconstructionism. Even those people do not believe their own claims about there being no facts, as Chomsky has noted elsewhere, they step out of the room and expect to step on something solid.

Kay: Sure, they think everything is relative except their own statements. Their own statements are settled science, but there is no truth except our own truth. It is very circular and makes no sense.

13. Jacobsen: Yes, it is the same as the parody of sophisticated theological thought. One asks, “How do we know God is real?” The other responds, “Well, it says so in the Bible.” The first asks, “How do you know God wrote the Bible?” The other again responds, “It says so in the Bible.” This kind of stuff.

Kay: Yes! Very circular.

Jacobsen: It is a self-parody in many ways. Between that scene from the Life of Brian from Monty Python and the statement of professor Noam Chomsky, who has been quite a vociferous critic of postmodernism whenever or wherever forms it may arise in, they relate a little bit to what I call the “Hollywood pathology” as well.

If you look at the moral grandstanding, the self-aggrandizement, of Hollywood at large, not all but writ large, the general culture is a form of – some use the term “virtue signalling” but – saying, “I am a moral exemplar because I state our liberal Hollywood cultural truisms.”

Kay: Yes, I think it is about talking the talk. I find that the Hollywood people – the people like Justin Trudeau –  they think that voicing a sentiment is a form of activism. They think that they have done something when they say, “I believe in this,” or, “This is wrong,” or, “Racism is wrong.”

Then they step down from the stage and feel as if they have done something. They have not done anything. Hollywood, often, is behind the times.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Kay: They do not start really getting on a bandwagon until it has become quite accepted in the general population. Hollywood can be quite craven. Hollywood stopped having Islamist villains when they got threats to stop. They did. They caved into Muslim demand.

China too. I forget what China’s demand [Laughing] was. But I remember seeing Rob Reiner discuss it with Tucker Carlson. It is so courageous, but when China said, “Stop doing whatever it was doing, they stopped.” I wish the Hollywood award shows would go back to simply celebrating their art and drama.

It is sickening having to listen to these people spout off one after the other about their values and principles. That very few of them do anything at all to make the world a better place.

14. Jacobsen: Many people will agree with the values stated by them. But I think one came up with the recent and ongoing sexual misconduct scandals.

Kay: Yes!

Jacobsen: Many will proclaim certain values. But the problem seems to me a lot of people know about it, for one. But I think a prerequisite to being moral is to be moral. Hollywood people, for a large portion, are being kept upright.

They made statements about sexual misconduct being bad. Then the sexual misconduct allegations came out with hundreds of them for dozens of men. Then they had the gall to have that award ceremony where they spoke out about those things.

It is good to speak out about these things if you are at the same time backing it up beforehand with actions. But it is after the fact. So, they were being kept upright rather than being upright to begin with.

Kay: Look at all the people who have no problem working with Roman Polanski., who is a convicted rapist, everybody knows about that. That is no secret. But people want to make movies. They think he makes pretty good movies, so they will work with him.

Actresses will work with him. There is a tremendous amount of hypocrisy in this. The “Hollywood casting couch”? There is a reason that phrase has been in use for so many decades. It is a quid pro quo.

I am sure there are very few people like Harvey Weinstein – I mean who are as gross as he is. But I am also sure there are plenty of men who have some influence in show business who will offer opportunities for beautiful young women in exchange for sex. I think a lot of that sex is given very willingly as a transactional thing, where both are in cahoots.

Now, that is all looked at as sexual misconduct. When you extract sex for an opportunity, that is considered sexual misconduct. But to the women who get the advantage, who get the part in the movie, or who get the step up in the career, why is it sexual misconduct if you get something out of it?

The same people would say that prostitution is a perfectly legitimate occupation if somebody wants to do it. If they want to sell their body for money, selling your body for a part in a movie, how is that different?

So, it is up to you. If that is the only way to get it, you have a choice to make: how badly do you want that part in that movie? How badly do you want that opportunity? It is a buyer’s market in Hollywood. Everybody knows it. You better be selling something special if you want to make the grade.

If you have some special talent, you may make it anyways. It is a compromised town. It really is. So, I agree with you. The hypocrisy is really pretty sickening.

Jacobsen: Maybe, the moral grandstanding comes out of a certain existential angst.

Kay: These are dramatic people full of self-love. They are narcissistic people. They trade in image, and brand. Most are afraid of not being a part of the pack. Nobody wants to be shunned in Hollywood. It is jumping on that bandwagon. I think a lot of them are not overly intelligent people.

I think these are people who mostly have one thing on their mind. Not many of them sit around reading The New Republic or The National Review. So, they do not know a lot about politics, but they do know what to say that is politically correct. They say it.

They get a podium to say it. They get this wave of warmth and love what is easy to say. So, why shouldn’t they say it?

15. Jacobsen: Many people distrust Fox News. I think that is a fair statement. Fewer people distrust some of the comedic reporting…

Kay: …Yes…

Jacobsen: …coming out of some of the late-night shows. Some of the late-night shows have taken on that guise. Some might claim otherwise. But my observation is that the comedy is part of it, of course, but, sometimes, it is pushing a particular political narrative at the same time.

Kay: Yes, I do not know what the statistics are, but it is quite a large number of people say they get their news by watching Bill Maher and Jimmy Kimmel and all of these late-night guys. They don’t watch regular news anymore. The numbers have gone down.

Jacobsen: They don’t read the other side either.

Kay: They are not big readers.

16. Jacobsen: I think there was a Twitter analysis of people’s habits. They inferred habits. When they looked at it, people that identified as conservative and liberal self-segregated for the most part.

Kay: For sure, we are all in our siloes. I am guilty of it. There is only a certain amount of time. A certain amount of YouTube videos, and Twitter information, and so on, that you can follow at a time. I think I am going get the stuff I need to see. I am watching the YouTube of people who I have interest in.

I have no interest in watching liberal or progressive. I take that in by osmosis. So, I look for content that will be helpful for me in framing my own perspective. For absolute or objective news, I want objective sources. But you can still get objective news at The Wall Street Journal.

You can read a conservative opinion newspaper and still get the objective news on the news page for that. But Twitter is addictive. Don’t you find?

Jacobsen: Actually, I do not have a profile.

Kay: Really?!

17. Jacobsen: Yes, I have one for the journal. I have some social media for it, but I only got them because I was pressured into doing it. If I publish an article, I retweet it or spread it on Facebook. If I can’t find the email for the person that I want to interview, I will reach out to them on Facebook.

But I do not use them for what they were intended to be used for.

Kay: You are lucky if you are not. I do find Twitter to be quite addictive. I do spend an inordinate amount of time on it. I keep saying, “I am going to just see my notifications.” But on the way there, you get hooked by articles.

A couple of people that I follow and really like, they put out a lot of stuff. They point to articles that are really good or useful for me professionally. I have to say that if I were young today. I would very much doubt if I would have gone into English Literature because I would not have had time to read books.

I am so grateful in a way because I lived in a time before all of this. Because I got to read a lot of the world’s great literature. I do not think I would have been able to if I grew up with all this social media, like all the kids I see with their heads in their phones.

I would be very busy and back-and-forth. I was always solitary in my time, but I was not lonely because I was always reading. It is a very different world, very different.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Columnist and Journalist, National Post.

[2] Individual Publication Date: May 8, 2018 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/kay; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] B.A., University of Toronto; M.A., McGill University.

[4] Image Credit: Barbara Kay.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. In Conversation with Barbara Kay: Columnist and Journalist, National Post (Part One) [Online].May 2018; 17(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/kay.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, May 8). In Conversation with Barbara Kay: Columnist and Journalist, National Post (Part One). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/kay.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. In Conversation with Barbara Kay: Columnist and Journalist, National Post (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A, May. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/kay>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “In Conversation with Barbara Kay: Columnist and Journalist, National Post (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/kay.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “In Conversation with Barbara Kay: Columnist and Journalist, National Post (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A (May 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/kay.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘In Conversation with Barbara Kay: Columnist and Journalist, National Post (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/kay>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘In Conversation with Barbara Kay: Columnist and Journalist, National Post (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/kay.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “In Conversation with Barbara Kay: Columnist and Journalist, National Post (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 17.A (2018):May. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/kay>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. In Conversation with Barbara Kay: Columnist and Journalist, National Post (Part One) [Internet]. (2018, May; 17(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/kay.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2018. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2018-05-01

Interview with Dr. Margena A. Christian

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 17.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Thirteen)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: May 1, 2018

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,281

ISSN 2369-6885

Interview with Dr. Margena A. Christian

Abstract

An interview with Dr. Margena A. Christian. She discusses: geographic, cultural, and linguistic family background; influence on development; influences and pivotal moments in early life; founding and owning DocM.A.C. write Consulting; building and maintaining a client base; being a lecturer at the University of Illinois at Chicago; the dissertation and original interest in it; being a senior editor and senior writer for EBONY and other publications and initiatives; abilities, knowledge, and skills developed from the experience; interest in education, fashion, finance, health, medicine, parenting, relationships, religion, and spirituality; covering the death of Michael Jackson; advice for journalists; advice for girls; advice for women in general; advice for African-American women; advice for professional women; greatest emotional struggle in personal life; greatest emotional struggle in professional life; nicest thing someone’s ever done for you; meanest thing someone’s ever done to you; source of drive; upcoming collaborative projects; upcoming solo projects; and final feelings or thoughts.

Keywords: African-American, consulting, editor, lecturer, Margena A. Christian, University of Illinois at Chicago, woman.

Interview with Dr. Margena A. Christian: Distinguished Lecturer, University of Illinois at Chicago; Founder and Owner, DocM.A.C. write Consulting[1],[2],[3],[4]

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: In terms of geography, culture, and language, where does your familial background reside?

Dr. Margena A. Christian: I was born and raised in St. Louis, Missouri. Appropriately so, I made my entrance into the world at Christian Hospital on the city’s north side, where I resided until I relocated to Chicago in 1995 when hired by Johnson Publishing Company. My mother’s side of the faily was African American and Cherokee Indian. They were from Arkansas. My father’s side of the family was African American and German. I don’t know much about them except that his grandmother was, as my mom often said, “full-blooded German” and that a great portion of his family distanced themselves from the others after deciding to “pass” as White. I grew up in what I considered a pretty traditional African-American, working-class family. My mom was a librarian and media specialist; my dad was an inspector at General Motors.

2. Jacobsen: How did this influence development?

Christian: Growing up in St. Louis was an interesting experience. There is much division there between African Americans and Whites. I lived on the city’s north side, which is predominantly Black. I attended a Catholic grade school, Most Holy Rosary, and a Catholic high school, Cardinal Ritter College Preparatory, with people who looked like me. When I went to St. Louis University(SLU), a Jesuit institution, it was a major adjustment. During this time there were few people that attended who looked like me. I can still recall often being in classes where I was the only African American. Going from being around my own 24/7 and then moving into a world where I was suddenly the only “one,” took some getting used to. I can say that I had a pleasant time as a Billiken at SLU. I worked hard and made stellar grades so I stood out for more reasons than one. And, needless to say, I hardly ever missed class because the professor always seemed to notice.

3. Jacobsen: What about influences and pivotal moments in major cross-sections of life such as kindergarten, elementary school, junior high school, high school, undergraduate studies (college/university), and graduate studies?

Christian: As previously mentioned, my mom was a teacher. When I attended kindergarten, it was at the same school where she taught. For some reason I didn’t feel the need to work as hard because mom was there. In some ways I felt privileged over the other students. From that experience, my mom learned that it wasn’t such a good thing to work at the same school with your kid. I was headed to the third grade when my parents decided to take me out of the St. Louis Public School System and have me attend an Archdiocesan school. She didn’t feel that my siblings and I were getting the best education, so she convinced our dad to allow us to transfer to Catholic schools.

I attended a co-ed high school that was considered one of the best private, Catholic schools in an urban area. That’s where my life changed after taking a leadership class with Sister Barbara. She knew how much I loved to write and told me about the Minority Journalism Workshop, sponsored by the Greater St. Louis Association of Black Journalists. The program was designed for juniors and seniors in high school and early college students. I was a sophomore when I applied and got accepted. Renowned journalists George E. Curry and Gerald Boyd were founders of this pioneering workshop, which would become the blueprint for other minority journalism workshops throughout the country.

Training with professional journalists at such a young age helped to hone my craft and solidify my desire to do this for a living. I won scholarships two years in a row and had my first article published. Nothing beats hands-on experience. I didn’t write for the school paper at SLU, because I didn’t feel comfortable as “the only one.” Instead, I returned to my roots and did an internship at the city’s top African-American publication, the St. Louis American Newspaper. Later I wrote for a newsmagazine called Take Five. Building one’s clips is critical. I had an attractive portfolio with a range of stories to show.

However, coming from a family of educators, I did what most people who aspire to become a journalist do. I played it safe and got a job as an English teacher at a Catholic grade school, Bishop Healy. So, essentially, I taught by day and wrote by night. Healy was in the city and practiced the Nguzo Saba value system. When I reflect on my life, I see that I was being prepared. Concepts in my dissertation were the Nguzo Saba to show pioneering publisher John H. Johnson’s commitment to his race when documenting our history in magazines.

4. Jacobsen: You founded and own DocM.A.C. write Consulting. It provides a number of services including editing, professional development, proofreading, writing services, and so on. What is the importance of these services to the clientele?

Christian: People always seek those who can fine tune and polish their writing, editing and proofreading. Educators need to remain current with pedagogical strategies so professional development is one way to achieve this. I also do dissertation coaching. Thus far I’ve helped two people complete their dissertation. The coursework is the easy part; the hard part is crossing the finish line by submitting the dissertation! There’s a great deal of folks who are ABD (all but dissertation) who need the right push to move along. That’s what I do.

5. Jacobsen: How does one build and maintain a client base?

Christian: Building and maintaining a client base, for me, comes from word of mouth and networking. Most of my clients were referred by other clients and/or people who know my work.

6. Jacobsen: You are a lecturer at the University of Illinois at Chicago. What tasks and responsibilities come with this position?

Christian: I teach an Academic Writing I course, considered freshman composition, in English. Recently UIC started a professional writing concentration as a minor. I was hired to help build the program. Thus far I developed and designed two courses: Writing for Digital and New Media and Advanced Professional Writing. One thing I enjoy most about being a lecturer is that the focus is on teaching and not so much research. If I choose to conduct more or to write journal articles, it is optional and not mandatory. Each semester I teach three different courses so my prep time is far reaching. Thanks to my organizational skills, I make it work effortlessly.

7. Jacobsen: Your dissertation was titled John H. Johnson: A Historical Study on the Re-Education of African Americans in Adult Education Through the Selfethnic Liberatory Nature of Magazines. What was the original interest in this subject matter?

Christian: I didn’t simply read about how John H. Johnson helped to make history. I helped him to write it. I was hired by the man himself in 1995, when I started as an assistant editor for the weekly publication Jet magazine. When Mr. Johnson, as we lovingly called him, died in 2005, I saw how things changed the following year with new people in place to run the iconic publications. Let’s just say that I knew that one day the magazine and the company as I once knew it would be no more. It hit me that there would come a time when people won’t remember or know anything about a man who lived named John H. Johnson. It struck me that one day people won’t know about his iconic publications. It hit me that the house that he once built at 820 S. Michigan Avenue would no longer exist. I realized I was the bridge between the old and the new. I was the last editor hired by Mr. Johnson and worked along his side who remained at the company before my position was eliminated in 2014. My position ended the same week that Jet magazine ended. History was being rewritten and it was bittersweet. For instance, a man named Simeon Booker led the ground-breaking coverage for the tragic 1955 Emmett Till story. I did the modern-day, follow-up coverage, beginning in 2004, when the body was exhumed and the case reopened. It was an honor to have Booker hand me the baton and for Mr. Johnson to have approved it. After a series of stories that I penned for a few years, I concluded that chapter in my life and the magazine’s annals by purchasing a beautiful oil painting of Till (shown in image) that was done by a fellow JPC employee, Raymond A. Thomas.

8. Jacobsen: What was the main research question? What were the main findings of the doctoral research?

Christian: The main research question was how did John H. Johnson use his magazines in adult education to combat intellectual racism. The main findings were that not only did he educate his own race but he educated all races, all over the world.

9. Jacobsen: You were a Senior Editor and Senior Writer for EBONY, editor of Elevate, Features Editor for Jet, and assisted in the inauguration of EBONY Retrospective. What were these initiatives?

Christian: Features editor was a position where I was charged with pitching, writing and editing human interest stories. I also assisted with selecting and securing high-profile figures for cover subjects. Elevate was a section in EBONY that focused on health, wellness and spirituality. EBONY’s Retrospective was an opportunity for me to marry my love of entertainment with my interest in historical data by examining pivotal cultural moments in music, movies and TV that shaped my race.

10. Jacobsen: What abilities, knowledge, and skills were developed from them?

Christian: In addition to building an amazing list of contacts, I mastered the art of multi-tasking and learned the importance of having steady relationships. It’s not about who you know but who knows you and returns your call. On the flip side, in terms of production, Jet magazine was a weekly publication so I had less than a week to meet a deadline. This included tracking down sources, doing research, conducting interviews, writing stories and editing. Early on I handled images for both EBONY and Jet by operating the Associated Press photo machine, including breaking it down and cleaning what was called the oven. Moving to EBONY in 2009 offered me a bit more time to work on lengthy features. The Retrospective pieces were supposed to only be 1,500 words, but I would gather such wonderful information that I would force their hand at close to 3,000 words!

11. Jacobsen: You write on education, fashion, finance, health, medicine, parenting, relationships, religion, and spirituality. What is the source of interest in these topics?

Christian: My professional career began at Jet magazine. The weekly newsmagazine required that all editors write about every subject. My specialty was entertainment. During my interview with Mr. Johnson and his daughter, Linda, in 1995, I expressed an interest in “writing about the stars” for EBONY. I recalled being told by Mr. Johnson that rank determined who would talk to the notables at EBONY, so he thought Jet would be a better fit since all editors had an equal chance of doing stories about celebs. Later, I was asked to write solely about health. I wasn’t excited about this notion but it ended up being a blessing in disguise. I secretly began to enjoy writing about this subject. Now I’m at UIC, a top research institution that is renowned for its hospitals and clinics.

12. Jacobsen: You spearheaded on-the-ground coverage of the death of Michael Jackson (“King of Pop”). What was that experience like for you?

Christian: This was a difficult time for me but I had a job to do. This opportunity also came during an interesting time of transition at the company. I helped to document some history for this but not as much as I would have liked. Some people only wanted to hear salacious stories and could care less about him as a man more than him as an artist. That bothered me. Nonetheless, I was busy and exhausted. I spent three weeks in Los Angeles, spending time at the Jackson family’s Encino compound, camped outside with the hundred other reporters from around the world, and driving for hours to Los Olivos to visit Neverland. I met a man during a church prayer service named Steve Manning, who was one of his best friends who first ran the Jacksons fan club back in the day. We still keep in touch. A year after Michael’s death, Steve was at the Jackson’s home and allowed me to speak with Michael’s mom, Katherine. I didn’t quite know what to say because it was the weekend before Mother’s Day, her first without him. Janet once sent me a Christmas card, which I still have. The Jackson family grew up at Johnson Publishing Company and were close friends with Mr. Johnson. I felt honored when I was selected by the managing editor, Terry Glover, to document this important history. She knew what I brought to the table and that I would deliver.

13. Jacobsen: Any advice for journalists?

Christian: I would encourage them to read, to write, to read, to write. Find a mentor who can guide you and know that building relationships are critical in this profession.

14. Jacobsen: Any advice for girls?

Christian: The advice I have for girls is to discover your passion and then you’ll find your purpose. Ask yourself, “What would I do for the rest of my life even if I never got paid to do this?” That’s usually your answer.

15. Jacobsen: Any advice for women in general?

Christian: General advice I have for women is to follow that still, quiet voice from within whenever it comes to making any type of decision. Trust your instinct and be patient. You can’t miss what is meant for you.

16. Jacobsen: Any advice for African-American women?

Christian: The advice I have for African-American women is to never forget that you are a queen. Wear your crown with pride and know that you are wonderfully and divinely created.

17. Jacobsen: Any advice for professional women?

Christian: Always have multiple streams of income. Do not rely upon one job and remember that no one works harder for you than you can work for yourself.

18. Jacobsen: What seems like the greatest emotional struggle in personal life?

Christian: The greatest emotional struggle in personal life is realizing that people will disappoint because they are human.

19. Jacobsen: What seems like the greatest emotional struggle in professional life?

Christian: The greatest emotional struggle in professional life is being so passionate about making certain that my students learn and that my stories educate, enlighten and uplift.

20. Jacobsen: What’s the nicest thing someone’s ever done for you?

Christian: My sister and a few close friends gave me a surprise graduation party after I earned my doctorate. I don’t like surprises and I don’t get fooled easily, but they managed to do a splendid job of knocking me off my feet. I was very touched.

21. Jacobsen: What’s the meanest thing someone’s ever done to you?

Christian: People did things to be mean but now I look at those encounters as part of divine order. I always remember that rejection is God’s protection. I also know that what people intended for harm was designed to help and push me into my purpose. So, mean things weren’t done to me only things that were MEANt to grow me.

22. Jacobsen: What drives you?

Christian: Faith and passion drive me.

23. Jacobsen: Any upcoming collaborative projects?

Christian: No upcoming collaborative projects as of now.

24. Jacobsen: Any upcoming solo projects?

Christian: I am preparing to turn my dissertation into a book. One of the country’s larger and most distinguished university presses picked it up. I am beyond thrilled to take this story into the academy. This was a full-circle moment. We keep someone’s legacy alive by educating future generations.

25. Jacobsen: Any feelings or thoughts in conclusion?

Christian: Trust the process and always keep the faith. In the words of the Hon. Marcus Garvey, “Onward and upward.”

26. Jacobsen: Thank you for your time, Dr. Christian.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Distinguished Lecturer, University of Illinois at Chicago; Senior Editor, Ebony Magazine; Founder and Owner, DocM.A.C. write Consulting; Assistant Director, First-Year Writing Program, University of Illinois at Chicago; Education Consultant; Adjunct Professor, English,

[2] Individual Publication Date: May 1, 2018 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/christian; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2018 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] B.A., Mass Communications (Concentration Journalism), St. Louis University; Certificate, Creative and Professional Writing, St. Louis University; M.S., Interdisciplinary Studies (Curriculum and Instruction), National Louis University; Ph.D., Adult and Continuing Education, National Louis University.

[4] Image Credit: Margena A. Christian.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Interview with Dr. Margena A. Christian [Online].May 2018; 17(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/christian.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, May 1). Interview with Dr. Margena A. Christian. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/christian.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Interview with Dr. Margena A. Christian. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A, May. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/christian>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “Interview with Dr. Margena A. Christian.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/christian.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Interview with Dr. Margena A. Christian.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 17.A (May 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/christian.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Interview with Dr. Margena A. Christian‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/christian>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Interview with Dr. Margena A. Christian‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 17.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/christian.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Interview with Dr. Margena A. Christian.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 17.A (2018):May. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/christian>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Interview with Dr. Margena A. Christian [Internet]. (2018, May; 17(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/christian.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-04-22

In-Depth with Count & Grand Master Raymond Dennis Keene, O.B.E. (Part Two)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 16.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Twelve)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: April 22, 2018

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 7,767

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

An interview with Count & Grand Master Raymond Dennis Keene, O.B.E.. He discusses: exemplars for generalized abilities, offensive strength, defensive strength, Blitz Chess strength; late-bloomers in chess; the 3 greatest chess games in history; media productions on chess; the collective reaction of the chess community, and the set of chess Grandmasters at the time of Deep Blue; the use of stature in the chess world for personal, social, or political ends; the philosophy of reality; gods and God; supreme spirital or motivational principles; attributes of God; reducing cheating and scandals in the chess world; political views; conflicts in communism and human nature; the core of human nature; the function of destructive human beings; ethics; economics; poor countries aiming to be developed countries; women’s rights and the Polgar sisters; Tony Buzan, Dominic O’Brien, and Dr. Manahel Thabet; the aforementioneds’ uniqueness; Dr. Manahel Thabet; future plans with them; near and far future plans for himself.

Keywords: chess, gifts, grandmaster, Raymond Keene, skills, talents.

In-Depth with Count & Grand Master Raymond Dennis Keene, O.B.E. (Part Two))[1],[2],[3],[4]

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Some chess Grandmasters have all-around high-quality talents, gifts, and skills in chess. Others have specific talents, which they exploit, e.g. strengths in offensive or defensive strategies, or talents in Blitz Chess. In each major division of skills, gifts, and talents, what exemplars come to mind for generalized abilities, offensive strength, defensive strength, Blitz Chess strength, and so on?

Count & Grand Master Raymond Dennis Keene, O.B.E.: The great exponent of defensive chess was a man named Tigran Petrosian, who was World Champion from 1963 to 1969. He died in 1984. He was known to be unbeatable. For example, he went through the World Championship qualifying tournament in 1962, which he won without losing a single game. He represented the Soviet Union in many, many chess Olympics and Olympiads. He only lost one game out of about 80 that he played. He was an amazing example of someone who was an exponent of defensive play. His main talent was not losing. If you do not lose, it maximizes your chances of winning. In fact, he won the World Championship.

In modern chess, the World Champion is Carlsen. He is probably the greatest exponent of the end game. I think it was the sixth game of his 2013 World Championship game against Anand. The rooks and pawns, where computers were saying the position was completely drawn, but Carlsen found a way to win, and it was a way to win the computers hadn’t seen. I think one of his strengths is in the end game.

Until there is an attack, the ones that come to mind are Alekhine, Mikhail Tal, and Garry Kasparov. Mainly, they are known for attacks against the imposing king. This has become more difficult because with modern computer players. Defense techniques are becoming better. It is becoming rarer and more difficult to achieve, but these guys in their prime were able to do that, and it wasn’t just by the brilliance of their ideas, but by the charisma of their personalities. It is not a dry exercise. Charisma, personality, and psychology play a very large part in it.

2. Jacobsen: We spoke about chess prodigies. What about late-bloomers in chess? Those that made a tremendous impact on the mind sport’s trajectory throughout its history.

Keene: Nowadays, it is difficult to become a late bloomer. It’s really very difficult indeed. You have to start young. I think all of the top Grandmasters now started very young. If you go in back in history, you can find some people who were late bloomers. One was Akiba Rubinstein. A Polish grandmaster. He didn’t learn the moves of the game until he was 16, a teenager. Yet, he became one of the world’s greatest players, and that is very, very, very rare.

In the past, winning the World Championship, Alekhine won the World Championship in 1927. He was 35 years old. That wasn’t uncommon. Nowadays, people do not win the World Championship until in their 20s. Carlsen won it in his 20s; Kasparov won it in his 20s. You need to look into the past for late bloomers.

Rubinstein is one of the ones that come to mind. Most of the great players were really strong. Capablanca was World Champion from 1921-1927 and was playing since the age of 4 with his father. He started to observe his father play. I think there are activities like mathematics, chess, where there is some kind of cosmic harmony. A five-year-old or a six-year-old could not have possibly written a novel like War and Peace because it requires expertise, historical knowledge, and experience. I think mathematics and chess are quite different. They are purely an expression of harmony, universal harmonics. Very young people could pick up on those harmonics and pick up on it. Same thing with music. You can play the violin very young. You can do mathematics very young. You can play chess very young. That is because I think there is some kind of harmony in the universe, which is in certain people with certain gifts can actualize and interpret.

3. Jacobsen: What chess games remain the greatest in history to you – top 3?

Keene: Top three games, I think probably the first one would be the immortal game between Adolf Anderssen and Lionel Kieseritzky played in 1851. It was a game that made a huge impact on chess history. It is called the Immortal Game because of its impact.

I would say that the game between Botvinnik and Capablanca in 1938, where Botvinnik was the representative of the Soviet school of chess. Capablanca was the old champion and was defeated by Botvinnik in a game of an amazing series of sacrifices. It showed the shift from the domination of Western chess to the new domination of the U.S.S.R. It was a beautiful game.

The final game, I think, also very symbolic, it was the 24th game of the 1985 game between Garry Kasparov and Anatoly Karpov. Garry became the youngest of the World Champions at the age of 24 as he beat Karpov in the final game. It was not only a fascinating game, very deep strategy and amazing ideas, but, again, it showed a transition, a historical transition, between the old Soviet Union and the passing of what must have been the Soviet state from 1917 and became the New Russia.

Although brilliant games in themselves, they were symbolic of political and social change. That’s why I’d think I’d choose those three. The 1851 game, 1938 game, and 1985 one between Kasparov and Karpov. It is interesting that in those three games two were won by white, but, Kasparov, as black, won the third game. I find it interesting that normally white has the advantage. It is a bit like having the serve in tennis. The kind of massive upheaval that overthrew the Soviet state also somehow symbolizes black, as the disadvantage, somehow won that last game.

4. Jacobsen: You have produced numerous media productions for the presentation and increased knowledge, and insight, into the professional strategy of chess – even inclusion of games with individuals such as GM Garry Kasparov.[5],[6],[7],[8],[9],[10],[11],[12] What responsibilities with the chess community, other chess Grandmasters, and the public comes with taking on this important activity of accurate and in-depth representation of chess to those with/without experience in it – and in an entertaining and respectable manner?

Keene: I think that with writing about chess or broadcasting about chess, there are different audiences to bear in mind. One audience is people who are expert chess players and understand a little about the game.  This is a very small number of people compared to the rest of the world. I think the next group is those that have interest chess, play chess, but do not have expert knowledge. I think that the key thing is to appeal to both groups at once. I have always tried to do this.

You can do this in two ways. First thing, you can say something about a position, or a variation, or a possibility, it has to be analytically accurate. You should not give a variation that does not work. I think that if you say something that is analytically correct and will hold up to computer scrutiny.

Next thing, which is where I think most chess commentators fail miserably, is you’ve got to make it clear, and you’ve got to make it comprehensible, and you’ve got to make it exciting. It has got to be verbally expressed. If we think back to Homer’s epic, the Iliad, Homer made that series of battles around Troy exciting. He didn’t do it by listing the latest technical developments in the forging of Greek armor. He did it by making the thing into an epic adventure. By creating heroes, by stating the deeds of an amazing set of people, I think the duty of the chess commentator is to think of the chess board like Homer, and to extol the virtues, the strengths, and the winner. You don’t denigrate the loser in the Homeric battle. You have got to explain this. You have got to present this battle between two sides. Chess is thought incarnate. It is the battle between two systems of thought. Two characteristics of thought. Two charismas of thought. It is exciting and needs to be expressed verbally, rhythmically or cosmically bound by correct variation like a symphony or epic. You cannot lie about the variations to make it more exciting. The variation is correct, the analysis would be correct, but you must be seen as a sort of bard singing the virtues of these heroes of mental warfare to make it exciting and attractive to pull more people in and show them the beauty of the game.

5. Jacobsen: You noted the current state of computers versus human beings in chess. In reflection on the defeat of Garry Kasparov by Deep Blue, what seemed like the collective reaction of the chess community, and the set of chess Grandmasters at the time?

Keene: I think that there was a belief after that match that it was still possible for Grand Masters to beat computers, that is, not lose to them. The period of matches for the World Championship for the highest honors between human thinkers and computers in mind sports, which started in 1992 where I organized the Draughts World Championship. That was the first ever world title match between a human and a computer in any thinking sport. By the time that Kasparov played Deep Blue in 1997, for a few years after that, maybe four or five years after that, it was still possible for humans and machines in thinking sports – but now, we know the computers are going to win. It will be some time before a player can sensibly challenge a computer and still win. There was a window between 1992-2008, where there was an interest in these matches. Now, we know in time what is going to happen.

Because computers advance so quickly, we no longer see computers as opponents, but as tools to help us, help the leading Grand Masters, or anybody, to improve their own play.

I hadn’t realized that that set a record for the first mind sports competition between a human and a machine. I didn’t realize it at the time but should have written a book about it.

6. Jacobsen: Some chess players utilize their station and stature in the chess world, such as Garry Kasparov, for the purpose of political and social activism too. For instance, in protest over the Presidency of Putin in Russia at the moment, Kasparov protests the government. Of course, his formidable achievements in chess provide – as you noted with yourself with respect to a certain weight in intellectual and social status – the basis for people taking his opinions, even outside of chess, seriously and given quite a lot of gravitas. What other chess Grand Masters come to mind in terms of utilization of their stature in the chess world as a means towards another personal, social, or political end?

Keene: Dr. Max Euwe, who was the World Chess champion from 1939-1947, and he defeated Alekhine in 1945, but lost the title later. He was a Dutchmen. He became a giant figure, not as a Dutchman, but someone who won the World Champion. He became a gigantic figure in Dutch society. He influenced Dutch culture to take on chess in a very big way. He was a massive figure, highly respected. One of the greats. His presence turned chess into a passion in Holland. I think if you think in countries who have worshipped chess there is Russia, Iceland, and Holland, and these are the three that really stand out.

Now, other people who have utilized their chess ability to create a certain standing: Anand in India. He has won sportsman of the year twice. He has been recognized by either Indian sportsman or cricketeers, cricketman, in India as being sportsman of the year. Although, I don’t think he’s done much with it. I do not think many chess players have done that much to leverage their chess prowess.

7. Jacobsen: What philosophical system seems the most robust and accurate in its representation of reality to you? What argument(s) and evidence seem the most convincing for this philosophical system?

Keene: Cause and effect, and the possibility or impossibility of infinity or non-infinity. Here’s my answer to several questions at once:

I believe that the human brain cannot conceive of either infinity or non-infinity in either time or space because if you say, “This goes on forever.” There’s an urge to say, “You must stop at some point. What comes after it?”  If you say, “Well, existence is infinity backwards,” the brain demands cause and effect. I do not think the universe, the physical universe as we can observe it, are subject to the laws of cause and effect. They break down at the beginning. There can’t be a beginning. Otherwise, what would have come before it? There can’t be a beginning. Cause and effect annihilate each other at the point of any beginning. How can something always exist?

I think it is also impossible for the human brain to conceive of nothing. The standard way of conceiving of nothing is a vacuum. A vacuum isn’t nothing. A vacuum is a space in which there is nothing, but that’s not nothing because the state which involves the vacuum is already something.

The space which can be emptied of everything that is conventionally viewed as nothingness isn’t nothingness at all because nothingness implies the absence of the space itself. Ergo, reality cannot be comprehended by the human brain. We can’t do it. It is not possible. Maybe, one day we can. Maybe, one of Manahel’s equations will do it. At the moment, we do not understand anything. We are like blind, deaf, and dumb. We do not know what the hell’s going on. The universe isn’t just weird; it’s weirder than we can possibly imagine, somebody said. We cannot conceive of a beginning without something before it, or space that’s empty. We cannot conceive of nothingness. We cannot conceive of infinity in time or space or non-infinity.

To be absolutely frank, the universe doesn’t make sense. Let’s live in it and do our best.

8. Jacobsen: You noted “gifts” for someone like Capablanca, as from something from God, possibly. Do you believe in gods or God?

Keene: Of course, I believe in God because, otherwise, it’s completely impossible to comprehend – I’m not a Christian. Technically, I am part of the Church of England, but I do not prescribe to Christianity, Islam, or Buddhism. I believe these are attempts to grasp the universal truth by different cultural and geographical methods. So I think there is a God, and we cannot comprehend him or her. I do not even know if God cares about us or not. I think God thinks in very grand designs. Individuals do not matter very much. I think our job in the universe is to help the universe become aware of itself and aware of God, and that is our job. The better the job we do, the better we are doing it. I think the origins of the universe are energy. Energy becomes gas; gas becomes liquid; liquid becomes solid; solid becomes matter; matter becomes sensate; sensation becomes intelligence; and the process, I see, is a driven process whereby the universe becomes aware of itself. It becomes aware of the divine. It becomes aware of the way it is, and we are currently beings capable of understanding what is it.

We are currently as far as we know the only beings remotely capable of understanding what it is. Maybe, somewhere it is something, and somewhere else it is something else. Whether it is some sixteen tentacle octopus on the moons of Alpha Centauri that is more intelligent than we are, but as far as we know we are doing the best job we can to understand it, comprehend it, and visualize it, to try and comprehend the complexity of beginnings and ends. But I’m not sure if any philosophical system or scientific system comes remotely close to explaining what the universe is, or what religion is, or what philosophy is. I think we just have to do the best we can, given our limited knowledge.

Maybe, Manahel’s 300+ page equation could solve it. So far, no one has anything. We are complete bloody beginners. When people say, “Well, I know this – I know there is no God.” Oh yea, really?! You know that for sure. Or people say, “Definitely there is a God.” Oh, yea, perhaps, my feeling is that there is so much that we cannot particularly comprehend, which is logically so completely beyond us that I think there must be some divine principle that is impelling us to understand. I think understanding, comprehension, is our job. Everything we do towards understanding, comprehending, is a good.

9. Jacobsen: Does this amount to a supreme spiritual or motivational principle?

Keene: Yes.

10. Jacobsen: In terms of this God, what attributes does this transcendental object/being/entity have to you?

Keene: The desire to be comprehended.

11. Jacobsen: What can be done to reduce cheating and scandals in the chess world?

Keene: [Laughing] That’s a jump.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Keene: Do not let people bring mobile phones into chess tournaments and make damn sure that they aren’t wired up to anything. It is all to do with electronic communication. There has to be some way of monitoring electronic communication. People, in any way, suspected of electronic communication, then you better figure out a way of dealing with it. It should be fairly simple, but one of the ways communication can ruin chess tournaments. It is as simple as that as far as I’m concerned.

12. Jacobsen: What political views seem the most efficacious in the world to you?

Keene: I think human beings are animals. I think animals are subject to the laws of evolution. And I think the laws of evolution have to honour in political systems. I think political systems, which distort human nature are doomed to failure. I think communism is a disaster, which tries to distort human nature.

13. Jacobsen: How so? Where does the conflict lie?

Keene: Because communism is too dirigiste, it tries to direct what human beings do. I think political systems that are successful are the ones that allow human beings the greatest freedom. I am pretty close to being a Libertarian. I think government is very suspicious. I think you need government to maintain order internally and defend the state against external aggression. Apart from that, I think governments, in general, try to take on too much. They try to legislate too many parts of people’s lives. I think the states that are most successful are the ones that allow citizens to get on with their lives. The government is simply there to be a last resort to make sure order does not break down and that the society isn’t threatened.

14. Jacobsen: Based on the principles of evolution by natural selection brought by Charles Darwin in 1859, what seems like the core of human nature to you?

Keene: I think the core of human nature is enlightened self-interest. I think that there are sizeable species like the preying mantis, which is promoted entirely by self-interest. It is not enlightened self-interest. A mantis will eat another mantis. I do not think human beings will do that. I think human beings are programmed to cooperate. A human being will not eat another human being. You will cooperate with another human being to grow crop to eat that, but a preying mantis with another preying mantis will simply eat it. Human beings are characterized by enlightened self-interest. Quite often, the most catastrophic events in human history have occurred when self-interest has been prevented. For example, the First World War, millions of people were interested in self-interest. They would not have dashed off to go and kill each other at all. There were other ways, but the First World War was the one where people were forced to fight in a way they were not in previous wars because of mass conscription. I think that human beings are naturally cooperative. They are naturally inclined to create. The destructive human beings are the exceptions rather than the rules. I think that if left to themselves human beings will create excellent systems. Governments bugger things up.

15. Jacobsen: In terms of the destructive human beings, in an evolutionary framework, they might perform a function. What seems like that function to you?

Keene: Napoleon was seen as good by the French and bad by the British. The British saw him as a continental despot trying to run the whole continent. The French saw him as some trying to restore French liberty, glory, and divinity. So, what is good? What is bad? A destructive human being, a really destructive human being, is often one who would be clinically insane. Even Adolf Hitler, the man was a criminal. If you read accounts of the way he rose to power, he rose to power by criminal methods. However, having gotten to power, if he hadn’t gone completely bonkers trying to conquer every other country in Europe, he would have restored Germany’s fortunes. It’s just that he was bonkers. He hit the Sudan, Czechoslovakia, then Poland, then Russia and France. I mean, this is insane behavior. I think even Hitler himself declared war on America.

The immediate denial of the Jews was insane. It was irrational. I think that where you get truly destructive individuals is because they are mentally unbalanced. Maybe, these people can be good. Yes, as a result of this terrible insanity, Europe has now stabilized itself, where I think European wars are a thing of the past. I do not think there will be another European war. Europe has had its differences, but there, I think, will never be another war between France and Germany. There may be another war thousands and thousands of years into the future, but as far as I can see, the traumas of the past caused by some very bad people have led to a better situation.

16. Jacobsen: Some things come to mind with respect to “relative ethics.” Some ethics include individuals such as Jeremy Bentham for Utilitarianism and John Stuart Mill. Utilitarianism splits into Act and Role Utilitarianism too. Other ethics come to mind such as Divine Command Theory, where the Good or the Just comes from the top-down from a transcendent object, being, or entity. What ethic do you take into account when considering relative values?

Keene: I think the key is to not harm other people. Do what you want to do and do not harm people in the process. I think there was a book written by Kingsley in the 19th century called The Water-Babies.[13] It’s a kid’s book. He basically says, “Do not do to others what you wouldn’t wish to have done to yourself. Deal with others in the way you would wish to be dealt with.” I think that is the basic, simple rule, but I think it is a good one.

Jacobsen: It sounds as if it comes out of Matthew 7:12.

Keene: Everybody remembers it from Charles Kingsley’s The Water-Babies, which is a sentimental 19th century kid’s book from England. I think he invented characters like Mrs. Doasyouwouldbedoneby.

Jacobsen: Mr. Golden Rule. [Laughing]

Keene: Yes.

17. Jacobsen: What form of economic system seems the best for developed societies such as the United Kingdom?

Keene: Capitalism: I would say think when the government tries to interfere that is where things start to go wrong. Of course, I think there should be some checks and balances. I actually believe in the survival of the fittest. That if a company is successful, then they should not be hand strung by government regulations. In that context, I think all drugs should be legalised. I think that the government should sanction companies to make drugs available and people should be allowed to take allowed to take whatever they want to whether marijuana, or cocaine, or any other thing. They should be allowed to do so. It should be the same penalties when under the influence of drugs as when committing criminal behavior when under the influence of alcohol.

I think that billions and billions of dollars are wasted worldwide by trying to stop people taking drugs, where you can damage yourself by drinking or even overeating. People should be allowed to do what they want to do. If they commit a crime, it should be tickets. Billions are spent on trying to stop people taking drugs. If the state licenses drugs, they can be a source of revenue instead of a source of loss. The whole question of drug-taking is totally relativistic. In the 19th century, cocaine was completely legal. Opium was legal. Some sort of modern argument that these should be criminalized. I find that thing weird, illogical. I think in due course that more drugs will be legal. Not that I’ve ever done a drug in my life. I would never do anything that I think would impair my thinking process. If people want to take them, then so be it. Let them do it.

Jacobsen: That argument ties together the Libertarian leanings and the Capitalist framework for the United Kingdom for you.

Keene: Yes.

18. Jacobsen: In the modern, in an intellectual, context, for the left, far-left, even moderate or centre-left, the positions seem to have misgivings with respect to Capitalism. What seems like a reasonable response to you?

Keene: I think Socialism is a disease.

Jacobsen: How so?

Keene: I think that the idea that human beings can be controlled and that free thought can be contained, or crushed, as indeed under extreme right-wing regimes such as Nazism is completely wrong. I say it again, you must give people the freedom to act, unless people are doing harm to other people. Governments must let them be individuals and let the individual do what they want to do. This is how creativity flourishes. If you try to crush creativity, whether creative expression, or actions or performances, you limit the creative potential of the human race. I believe in free speech.

19. Jacobsen: What about developing, or poor, countries with the aim to become developed countries?

Keene: The system of government. Is that what you’re saying?

Jacobsen: Better system of government is part of it, but it would be derivative from that better system of government. In other words, the economic system that would be implemented to improve their lot at either a faster rate or in general.

Keene: It’s got to be Capitalism. I think the best system of government for a country, which is very difficult to achieve, is a benevolent dictatorship without corruption.  It is almost impossible, but a lot of these countries, for example, South Africa. It went on a great course after Mandela, but with this current President corruption is rife. I think it’s going to go the same way as Zimbabwe if it’s not careful. Developing countries are in serious danger of being ran by corruption. Money is put into these ridiculous projects to be distributed fairly. I think Capitalism is a better way forward in all of these countries and freedom. I think when people start to tap out of Capitalism and press freedom these countries start to go off the rails.

20. Jacobsen: How important is women’s rights and the empowerment of women to the development of countries – even narrowed topics of cultural and sport import such as chess (which you indicated the future of chess with more women in it aside from the formidable Polgar sisters)?[14],[15],[16]

Keene: I think it’s absolutely vital. You cannot leave out half of the population when you’re trying to develop creativity. It’s completely bonkers. Women should be encouraged to shine in every area of intellectual area of performance.

21. Jacobsen: You have deep association with Tony Buzan, the inventor of Mind Mapping, Dominic O’Brien, Eight Times World memory Champion, and Dr. Manahel Thabet.[17],[18],[19],[20],[21],[22],[23] What instigated involvement with these prominent individuals?

Keene: I met Tony Buzan in 1991 when I went to one of his lectures. We have been working together closely ever since. Dominic O’Brien, I also met in 1991 because what had happened is that Tony suggested that we organize the first of the World Memory Championship. I went to the Guinness World Record to see who won the world records and invited all of those who got people who got memory awards to the meeting and Dominic turned up. So I started an association with him in 1991. He won the first ever World Memory Championship, which we organized. I’ve been working with Dominic ever since. We have another one coming up in China this year. Manahel, I think she met Buzan last year, and he mentioned here to me. I got in touch. I have been associated with her ever since. She’s a wonderful person.

22. Jacobsen: Each brings unique specialties and talents to the professional and public world.[24],[25],[26],[27],[28],[29],[30] Various talents, skills, abilities, and initiatives of importance and influence in a national, and international, context. What makes each of them unique to you?

Keene: Tony Buzan invented mind-mapping. He is absolutely committed to everything involving the mind, the brain, and genius. Dominic is a great ambassador of mental qualities. He’s very presentable, very tall, always well-dressed, very immaculate, and with a suit and tie. He really represents mental qualities in a most impressive way. Manahel is the most extraordinary person. I have never met anyone with such an amazing intelligence and an incredibly high IQ. Highly presentable, very, very charismatic, tremendous powers of reflexive persuasion. She is really a unique individual. I have never met anyone like her.

Jacobsen: Could you elaborate a little more on each individual?

Keene: I could, in what way?

Jacobsen: A parsing of personality variables. What seems to make them succeed in their area of professional life?

Keene: With Dominic, it is the fact that he started off without any particular talent for memory. I think this is probably common to all three of them. When they are presented with a situation where they have to succeed, or want to succeed, they had to analyze the accentuation that would derive the algorithm of success. Dominic did not start off with a great memory. He was inspired by a man named Craig Carvello. He wanted to do it himself. He wanted to perform all of these memory feats. He studied the methods of improving memory. He won the World Memory Championships eight times.

Tony, in university, was facing a dead-end in his studies and he wanted to remember what he was taught and how to make it interesting, colorful, how to make it attractive, and how to make it stick. That’s how he came up with the mind maps system. It is a situation where somebody is not given a God-given gift needs to solve certain immediate problems. They find the algorithm to do it by a process of ratiocination, by a process of analysis. I think that’s very impressive.

I think too with Manahel. I mean she comes from a different culture. She comes from a Middle Eastern culture where women do not have the freedom in life that men have. She wanted to solve the problem of breaking in to areas of activity that have traditionally been masculine. She did it by creating a genius persona and by winning IQ competitions, genius competitions, and she studied the methods of how to break into this masculine circle. She did it. Now, she is a global superstar. All three of them.

23. Jacobsen: One woman with an interest in women’s rights, women in science, women in academia or the university system, and in the world in general is Dr. Manahel Thabet. How important are contributions, such as her own, to the increased equality and rights for women in the world and the aforementioned domains because these seem interconnected in this globalized world?

Keene: I think they are very important because she is a very prominent person in Middle Eastern society, they all know who she is. She is immediately recognizable. She has a very distinctive style of presentation and dressing. She stands out. I think she is very widely respected. I think that’s why she won Brain of the Year from the Brain Trust Charity. That has been going since 1990. I think she has helped a lot, the cause, throughout the world. I think she will continue to do so and will increase her profile.

24. Jacobsen: Any future plans in development with them?

Keene: Absolutely, I’m going to do the World Memory Championship with Tony Buzan in China later this year. It’ll be China again next year. I’ll be hoping to bring it to the Middle East in 2017 with, possibly, Dr. Manahel’s assistance. There is a definite scope of possibility there. Of course, Dominic O’Brien is very active in the World Memory Championships. I am seriously considering expanding the scope of the World Memory Championships. It is much bigger than it was than when we started. It started with 8 people. Now, it is at about 200 every year. I think that there is scope for making the World Memory Championship something truly exciting. Something televisual; something that becomes almost as the World Championship of the brain. I think all three of them will be involved in that.

25. Jacobsen: What about for you – individually – for near and far future plans?

Keene: I have a lot of things. I want to increase the range and scope of The Brain Trust Charity. I want to help Professor Michael Crawford in his aims to eliminate world mental ill-health with his Institute for Brain Chemistry and Human Nutrition. I want to increase the range and scope of the World Memory Championship. I want to create a real Olympic Games for the mind, which we started a few years ago but never quite made it. I am very interested in creating an Olympic Games for the mind that covers all the possible mental competitions. We’ve got The Gifted Academy with Dr. Manahel. I want to enhance the scope of it to bring our new mental training technique to as many people as possible. I want to help Tony Buzan bring mental literacy to the whole world. Everything is centered around increasing the power of people to think and help them make their own decisions to help the individual make up his or her own mind about the truth, and not be fed lies by governments or the press. And to help them decide for themselves what is the right path for themselves for comprehension.

26. Jacobsen: Thank you for your time, Mr. Keene.

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  34. The Gifted Academy. (2015). The Gifted Academy. Retrieved from http://www.thegiftedacademy.com/home.
  35. The Spectator. (2015). Raymond Keene. Retrieved from http://www.spectator.co.uk/author/raymond-keene/.
  36. The Sunday Times. (2015). The Sunday Times. Retrieved from http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/.
  37. The Times. (2015). The Times. Retrieved from http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/.
  38. Twitter.com. (2015). @Times_Chess. Retrieved from https://twitter.com/times_chess.
  39. Ulster Chess Union. (2015). Raymond Keene plays simultaneous at Bangor Club. Retrieved from http://www.ulsterchess.org/archives/chronicles/2014-2015-season/articles-from-2014-2015-season/raymond-keene-bangor-simultaneous/raymond-keene-plays-simultaneous-at-bangor-club.
  40. University of Cambridge. (2015). University of Cambridge. Retrieved from https://www.cam.ac.uk/.
  41. (2015). Raymond Keene. Retrieved from https://www.waterstones.com/author/raymond-keene/184662.
  42. WIQF.com. (2015). WIQF. Retrieved from http://wiqf.org/.
  43. World Chess Championship 2015. (2015). World Team Chess Championship 2015. Retrieved from http://tsaghkadzor2015.fide.com/.
  44. World Chess Federation. (2015). FIDE: Standard Top 100 Players August 2015. Retrieved from https://ratings.fide.com/top.phtml?list=men.
  45. World Chess Foundation. (2015). FIDE Chess Profile: Raymond Keene. Retrieved from https://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=400211.
  46. World Genius Directory. (2015). Dr. Manahel Thabet. Retrieved from http://www.psiq.org/world_genius_directory_awards/goty2013manahelthabet.pdf.
  47. World Memory Championships. (2015). About Us. Retrieved from http://www.worldmemorychampionships.com/about-2/.
  48. World Memory Sports Council. (2015). About Us. Retrieved from https://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=K4vGVc6hEIyV8QfIjZmoDg&gws_rd=ssl#q=Raymond+Keene&start=40.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Knight of the Order of the White Swan, (conferred by ) Prince Marek Kasperski Chevalier of the Order of Champagne; Chair, Outside in Pathways; Director, Brain Trust Charity; Former British Chess Champion; Bronze Medal, World Team Championship; Right to Arms, Royal College of Arms; Freeman of the City of London; Winner (Two Times), Global Chess Oscar; Ex-Head (1994-2000), Mind Sports Faculty; Ex-Chess Tutor, Imperial Court of Iran; Gold Medal, Chinese Olympic Association; Gold Medalist, European Championship; Honorary Board Member, World Intelligence Network (WIN); The Global Media and PR Director, World Memory Sports Council; Ex-Head (2013/2014), Leadership Academies Prince Philipp of Liechtenstein and President of Mexico, Vicente Fox, in Leon; Britain’s Senior International Chess Grandmaster; International Arbiter, Fédération Internationale des Échecs (FIDE) or World Chess Federation; Co-Founder, World Memory Championships; Count of the Order of Torres Madras, Portugal; Officer of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (OBE); journalist; columnist; and author.

[2] First publication on April 22, 2018 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/keene-two.

[3] Photograph courtesy of Count & Grand Master Raymond Dennis Keene, O.B.E and Byron Jacobs.

[4] Master of Arts, Modern Languages, Dulwich College, Trinity College, Cambridge.

[5] Please see [1000sADSTV] (2013, June 30). Raymond Keene & Tony Buzan Genius Formula Multiple Intelligences. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjEas0_QZeQ.

[6] Please see [Arkham Noir] (2011, April 22). Kasparov Vs. Speelman – 25 minutes away from the Final Pt.1. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgUgrhYXuRE.

[7] Please see [Arkham Noir] (2011, April 22). Kasparov Vs. Speelman – 25 minutes away from the Final Pt.2. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t06vM2w6WO4.

[8] Please see [Douglas Goldstein] (2012, April 27). Raymond Keene – All About Chess and Finance – interview – Goldstein on Gelt – July 2011. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuLYKguIc3U.

[9] Please see [Pavan Bhattad] (2014, December 22). Raymond Keene, CoFounder, World Memory Championships. Interviewed by Pavan Bhattad. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNgfLVyc0v4.

[10] Please see [TataSteelChess] (2015, January 17). Tata Steel Chess 2015 En passant Raymond Keene. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rBQckkgAyQ.

[11] Please see TVapexLondon] (2014, January 2). Part I – Ray Keene, Chess Grandmaster shares his expertise. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkMyyyOyc7c.

[12] Please see [TVapexLondon] (2014, January 2). Part III – Ray Keene, Chess Grandmaster shares his expertise. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCDUmiDu-mM.

[13] Please see Susan Polgar. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Susan-Polgar.

[14] Please see Judit Polgar. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Judit-Polgar.

[15] Please see chess. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/chess.

[16] Please see In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. (2015). Dr. Manahel Thabet. Retrieved from http://in-sightjournal.com/in-sight-people/.

[17] Please see World Genius Directory. (2015). Dr. Manahel Thabet. Retrieved from http://www.psiq.org/world_genius_directory_awards/goty2013manahelthabet.pdf.

[18] In The Gifted Academy About: Principals… (2015), it, in full, states:

“Dr Manahel Thabet is ranked among the 30 Smartest people alive by SuperScholar and Brain of the Year Award Winner 2015-2016. In 2014 she was selected the AVICENNA award Laureate, as a successor to Professor Tony Buzan, given every year to those who present best practice in science , connecting East with West through science and knowledge. She also represents The Brain Trust Foundation as President of the MENA region, with one objective, which is to unlock and deploy the vast capacity of the human brain.

She is a PhD holder; Youngest winner of Woman of the Year 2000 from Woman Federation for World Peace. In 2013 Dr. Thabet won Genius of the Year 2013 by the World Genius Directory representing ASIA.

She is the President of WIQF (World IQ Foundation), the High IQ society and Vice President of ‘WIN’ (World Intelligence Network), with more than 60,000 high IQ members from all over the world; in 2012 Dr. Thabet was the Chairperson of the Scientific Comittee, Recommendation Commitee and Senior Advisor to the International Asia Pacific Giftedness Conference held in Dubai – UAE hosted by Hamdan Bin Rashis Awards for Distinguished Academic Performance. The conference hosted specialists from 42 countries, 320 papers and more than 2000 participants in the field of Talent and Gifted Education.

Dr. Thabet obtained the “Excellence of Global International Environmental and Humanitarian Award” given for outstanding efforts in undertaking environmental and humanitarian support. Dr. Thabet is also the winner of Middle East Achievement Awards in Science and was ranked among the 100 most powerful Women in the Middle East and most powerful 500 Arabs in the World by Arabian Business. Dr. Thabet is a Royal Grand Cross Officer of the White Swan Companionate and a Fellow of the Royal Society of Medicine in London, UK.”

Please see The Gifted Academy. (2015). About: Principals…. Retrieved from http://www.thegiftedacademy.com/about.

[19] Please see Thabet, M. (2015). Smart Tips Consultants. Retrieved from http://drmanahel.com/#about-us.

[20] Please see WIQF. (2015). WIQF. Retrieved from http://wiqf.org/.

[21] Please see Buzan, T. (2015). About. Retrieved from http://www.tonybuzan.com/about/.

[22] Please see Peak Performance Training. (2015). Dominic O’Brien. Retrieved from http://peakperformancetraining.org/.

[23] Please see In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. (2015). Dr. Manahel Thabet. Retrieved from http://in-sightjournal.com/in-sight-people/.

[24] Please see World Genius Directory. (2015). Dr. Manahel Thabet. Retrieved from http://www.psiq.org/world_genius_directory_awards/goty2013manahelthabet.pdf.

[25] In The Gifted Academy about: Principals… (2015), it, in full, states:

“Dr Manahel Thabet is ranked among the 30 smartest people alive by SuperScholar and Brain of the Year Award Winner 2015-2016. In 2014 she was selected the AVICENNA award Laureate, as a successor to Professor Tony Buzan, given every year to those who present best practice in science , connecting East with West through science and knowledge. She also represents The Brain Trust Foundation as President of the MENA region, with one objective, which is to unlock and deploy the vast capacity of the human brain.

She is a PhD holder; Youngest winner of Woman of the Year 2000 from Woman Federation for World Peace. In 2013 Dr. Thabet won Genius of the Year 2013 by the World Genius Directory representing ASIA.

She is the President of WIQF (World IQ Foundation), the High IQ society and Vice President of ‘WIN’ (World Intelligence Network), with more than 60,000 high IQ members from all over the world; in 2012 Dr. Thabet was the Chairperson of the Scientific Comittee, Recommendation Commitee and Senior Advisor to the International Asia Pacific Giftedness Conference held in Dubai – UAE hosted by Hamdan Bin Rashis Awards for Distinguished Academic Performance. The conference hosted specialists from 42 countries, 320 papers and more than 2000 participants in the field of Talent and Gifted Education.

Dr. Thabet obtained the “Excellence of Global International Environmental and Humanitarian Award” given for outstanding efforts in undertaking environmental and humanitarian support. Dr. Thabet is also the winner of Middle East Achievement Awards in Science and was ranked among the 100 most powerful Women in the Middle East and most powerful 500 Arabs in the World by Arabian Business. Dr. Thabet is a Royal Grand Cross Officer of the White Swan Companionate and a Fellow of the Royal Society of Medicine in London, UK.”

Please see The Gifted Academy. (2015). About: Principals…. Retrieved from http://www.thegiftedacademy.com/about.

[26] Please see Thabet, M. (2015). Smart Tips Consultants. Retrieved from http://drmanahel.com/#about-us.

[27] Please see WIQF. (2015). WIQF. Retrieved from http://wiqf.org/.

[28] Please see Buzan, T. (2015). About. Retrieved from http://www.tonybuzan.com/about/.

[29] Please see Peak Performance Training. (2015). Dominic O’Brien. Retrieved from http://peakperformancetraining.org/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. In-Depth with Count & Grand Master Raymond Dennis Keene, O.B.E. (Part Two) [Online].April 2018; 16(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/keene-two.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, April 22). In-Depth with Count & Grand Master Raymond Dennis Keene, O.B.E. (Part Two). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/keene-two.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. In-Depth with Count & Grand Master Raymond Dennis Keene, O.B.E. (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A, April. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/keene-two>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “In-Depth with Count & Grand Master Raymond Dennis Keene, O.B.E. (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/keene-two.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “In-Depth with Count & Grand Master Raymond Dennis Keene, O.B.E. (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A (April 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/keene-two.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘In-Depth with Count & Grand Master Raymond Dennis Keene, O.B.E. (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 16.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/keene-two>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘In-Depth with Count & Grand Master Raymond Dennis Keene, O.B.E. (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 16.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/keene-two.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “In-Depth with Count & Grand Master Raymond Dennis Keene, O.B.E. (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 16.A (2018):April. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/keene-two>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. In-Depth with Count & Grand Master Raymond Dennis Keene, O.B.E. (Part Two) [Internet]. (2018, April; 16(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/keene-two.

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2018-04-15

In-Depth with Count & Grand Master Raymond Dennis Keene, O.B.E. (Part One)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 16.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Twelve)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: April 15, 2018

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 10,760

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

An interview with Count & Grand Master Raymond Dennis Keene, O.B.E.. He discusses: geographics, cultural, and linguistic background; pivotal moments in early life; influences on intellectual development; growing up gifted or not; precocious chess achievements; myths and truths around chess prodigies; interest in Goethe; personal achievements; motivation for diverse interests; benefits from being a chess Grandmaster; general transferability to other areas of life; computers surpassing humans at chess; innate versus environmental influence on ability; benefits for students learning chess; Magnus Carlsen; probable near and far future for the world of chess; ranking chess achievement; common personality traits of the great chess grandmasters; genius gone awry such as Bobby Fischer; and underrated chess Grandmasters.

Keywords: Bobby Fischer, chess, genius, grandmasters, Magnus Carlsen, Raymond Keene.

In-Depth with Count & Grand Master Raymond Dennis Keene, O.B.E. (Part One)[1],[2],[3],[4]

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: In terms of geography, culture, and language, where does your family background reside[5]?

Count & Grand Master Raymond Dennis Keene, O.B.E.: We have lived in London.[6]We do not go back hundreds of years. The records are hundred years or so, and have always been in London.[7]

2. Jacobsen: What seem like pivotal moments in early personal life?

Keene: I was six years old. My mother wanted to take a bath. I was pestering her. She said, “Here, play with these.” She gave me chess pieces.[8]I had never seen them before. I said, “I don’t know how to play with them. You tell me.” She never got to the bath. That was my association with chess. I went on to become a chess Grandmaster.[9]

3. Jacobsen: How did these influence personal and intellectual development with respect to side activities such as chess, journalism, and writing?[10]

Keene: I got into journalism and writing through chess. I was primarily a chess player. I became a Grandmaster.[11] I won the British Championship.[12] I got the gold medal in the European Championship.[13]I got the bronze medal in the World Team Championship.[14]Because I had training in literature at school and Cambridge: German, French, and English.[15]I was fluent in writing about chess. That lead to writing 199 books, 12,000 articles, et cetera.[16],[17],[18],[19],[20],[21]

4. Jacobsen: Were you gifted growing up?

Keene: I was serious; not sure I was gifted. I was serious. If I was interested in something, I applied myself to it, quite determinedly.  If I wasn’t interested in something, I really hadn’t any trouble focusing on it at all. In fact, I wanted to get rid of it as quickly as possible. (Laughs) Physics, I couldn’t stand physics. Physics and math, I wasn’t interested in the slightest, but things like languages, history, Latin, German, French. I was interested in, of course, chess. I was able to apply quite serious dedication to them.

5. Jacobsen: Now, when it comes to precocious chess achievements, how did you find growing from childhood to young adulthood from childhood with this?

Keene: Precocious is a prodigy at 6, 8, or something. I didn’t show any serious talent at chess, until I was about 12 or 13. At that point, I started to take it seriously. I studied and read books on tactics, and so on.

I think it was books on strategy more than anything else. It told you how to begin a game, the right structures to aim for, and so on. I learned fast. Compared to people like Capablanca or Kasparov, or some of the modern prodigies, I was not precocious.[22],[23]I was average, until I was at least the age of 10 or 11.  After that, it moved quickly from the age of 12 or 13.

These were real prodigies. They had some sort of cosmic link with chess. I do not think I had that. I was very intelligent and very determined at things of interest to me – serious and not distractable. If I do something, then and now, I am ruthless at its completion. I tend not to become distracted. I have been lucky. I do not need much sleep. Quite often, I could do normal stuff during the day. During the night, I could study things I wanted to study. Next morning, I would still be awake.

I never needed a huge amount of sleep. Hopefully, it will continue because I enjoy sleeping. However, I do not sleep for long periods. I prefer short naps like in a plane, a car, or a train. Go to sleep, use the dead time for sleeping, and then catch up during the night. I did all of my school homework at night. My mother used to get worried. I would be awake at 2 or 3 o’clock in the morning working. She tried to get me to the bed.

6. Jacobsen: When it comes to prodigies in general, myths and mis-conceptions exist about them. What myths exist and truths dispel them?

Keene: It is said that Capablanca learned chess by watching his father. That he learned at the age of 4.[24]That’s not impossible. It is quite possible, actually. There are stories about Paul Morphy, that he learned chess at an early age, and then being able to beat European masters.[25]And they’re actually true because you can – games exist, you can see the games that they played, that are very impressive. They’re quite extraordinary.

Some people, like Capablanca, really were, and I think Kasparov, were truly gifted in chess.[26],[27]I don’t think I was. I was gifted with something else. Dedication, certain kind of intelligence, focus, not easily distracted, but I was quite big. I have always been big. Some kids at school are small and weedy. Some were bullied.

Nobody did that to me because I was twice their size. I was a good rugby player at school. I have been big and heavy.

7. Jacobsen: You have an interest in Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.[28],[29],[30] In fact, you translated Faust into English.[31],[32] Where does this interest, in the man and the story, originate for you – to such an extent as to translate the famous text?

Keene: The first thing of Goethe’s I read was his play, Egmont, which is a about the liberation of the Dutch in the 16th century from the Spanish Empire.[33],[34],[35] When I was at school, I was told that Goethe’s most advanced and difficult work was Faust.[36] It was almost like, “You shouldn’t read it. It’s too difficult.” I started to read it. I found it incredibly exciting. The opening line of Goethe’s Faust are amazing.[37] My spine was tingling as I read it. It was incredibly well-written and exciting.

Exploring what we know scientifically, what we know through magic, what we know through religion, what human ambition consists of, it was a really extraordinary play. I was impressed by Faust. I took Goethe as a special paper at Cambridge.[38] I studied Goethe in general.[39] I studied, not his plays and his poems alone, but his philosophy, his theory of color, which was quite different from Newton’s.[40] I read the conversations he had, which his secretary, Eckermann, recorded.[41] I knew a lot about Goethe. I knew the opinions.[42]

He was a towering colossus of European thought. He was probably the giant of European culture in the first decades of the 19th century. He knew Napoleon.[43] He knew all the major politicians. He knew all of the artistic figures. He worked with Schuler. He was like a bridge between the 18th century and 19th century.

The German Shakespeare, but in many ways the German Leonardo da Vinci.[44],[45] He was everything. He was a great polymath and a politician.[46] He was Prime Minister of Weimer, and minister of works and roads.[47] He was everything. It was part of this universal talent. This giant talent to cope with anything I found impressive.

8. Jacobsen: You hold the, or at least a, record, if I gather correctly, for the greatest number of written books, 199, on “Chess, Mind Sports, Genius, Mental World Records, Art and Thinking.”[48] You wrote 12,000 articles on various topics in chess, mind sports, and so on.[49],[50],[51],[52],[53],[54] You won numerous international chess prizes including the Gold Medal of Chinese Olympic Association (1981) and Global Chess Oscar (twice).[55]You competed simultaneously against 107 opponents with 101 wins, 5 draws, and 1 loss.[56] You co-founded and organize the World Memory Championships. You had involvement in organization of the World Chess Championships. You earned a peak rating of 2,510, which sufficed to earn the title of Grandmaster.[57] In addition to these, you acquired “freeman of the City of London” and were “granted right to Arms by the Royal College of Arm. Knight of the Order of the White Swan conferred by Prince Marek Kasperski and Chevalier of the Order of Champagne.”[58]  With these in mind, what remains the single greatest achievement in personal life?[59]

Keene: I will give you one more. I have been made a Count! So, I am His Excellency Raymond Dennis Raymond Order of the British Empire (OBE), international chess Grandmaster, and Count of the Order of Torres Vedras, Portugal.[60],[61]  I am the first person in the history of chess to be made a Count on account of his chess ability.

It is spelled Torres Vedras. It means “Green Towers.” Of course, “Torres” in Portuguese is the same as a chess rook: “Count of the Green Towers.” It’s a genuine title awarded by the legal descendants of the Imperial House of Braganza in Portugal.[62]

It was getting the Grandmaster title. It took the longest to do: blood, sweat, and tears. It took me a long time. It was very, very close on a number of occasions. Things went wrong at the last minute. I needed to win one game in a tournament, and lost it. Things like this. Or I would get two wins, and draw them both. I was so close on so many occasions.

According to modern rules such as freeze results before the end of the tournament, you have a Grandmaster title pro rata, before the end of the tournament nowadays.[63] If I knew that, I would be a Grandmaster two years earlier. Also, when I was doing it, 2,510 was a good rating.  Nowadays with inflation that will be a 2,700 rating, when there’s been enormous inflation since I achieved that rating.

In 1975, 1976, 1977, around that time, that was 35 or 38 years ago. In 1986, I was having dinner with Garry Kasparov in Brussels.[64],[65] I said, “Do you think you’ll ever get to 2,800?” He said, “No, it’s impossible. It cannot be done. Absolutely impossible. Mathematically, impossible. It cannot ever be done.” Now, there are – Kasparov got over 2,800, Carlsen got over 2,800, Kramnik got over 2,800, and Anand got over 2,800, and five or six people have already done it.[66],[67],[68],[69],[70]

Is it impossible? They are all very strong players. Even since 1986, there has been tremendous inflation. It is not playing strength alone. It is inflation too. 2,510 was good at the time. It would be a couple of hundred points higher were I to play at that strength now, which I cannot because I am old and tired.

Anyway, I think Grandmaster title was the thing that took the most blood, sweat, and tears. That was the most difficult professional thing that I achieved.

9. Jacobsen: In 1985, you replaced, and continue to write as a chess correspondent, for The Times following the retirement of Mr. Harry Golombek.[71],[72] In addition, you contribute to The Sunday Times, The Spectator, The Daily Yomiuri Tokyo, The Australian and The Gulf News.[73],[74],[75],[76],[77] Bearing in mind the previous question with incorporation of personal achievements, what motivates these diverse interests convergent upon the world of chess?

Keene: It all takes part from one. They are all chess columns. The one for the Gulf News, and the one I write for The Times.[78],[79] It is a syndicated article. It is the same article in the Times and Gulf News.[80],[81] I do two IQ questions every week. It is two questions that require a bit of thought, even a bit of knowledge. Even the rest of the chess columns, they are all about chess. I’m not writing about Mozart symphonies one week, and the sex life of the Guatemalan fruit fly the next one. It’s all chess-centric.

It is the most diverse mind-sport. The IQ questions formed a kind of mind sport, quiz questions with brain teasers. That is the linking factor. Almost everything that I have written is connected with that, and most of the books that I have written have been what happens to the brain as it gets older, and another about geniuses. What motivates a genius, who I think the main geniuses are, those are books I wrote with Tony Buzan.[82]

Most of the books I have written have been about chess. That is the predominant theme because that is the thing. I am coming to other things like memory and other mind sports through my association with chess, and the World Memory Championship because I am biased on the conversion from chess being a hobby to being a sport.[83] It was possible to convert chess from being a hobby to being a competitive sport through the analogy with chess.

10. Jacobsen: Does being a chess Grandmaster confer benefits to other domains in your life?

Keene: Yes, it confers social and intellectual status. It helped me to earn the OBE, the Order of the British Empire. You get a certain respect, certain credibility. People offer you opportunities.[84] Also, the kind of thinking required for chess is transferable. Many people deny this.

They say being good at chess means you’re good at chess and nothing else. I actually subscribe to the view of Musashi, the Japanese swordsman of the 16th century.[85] A Book of Five Rings, he wrote a book about martial arts.[86] He said, “From one thing, learn ten thousand. If you learn master one art, you can transfer skills.”

I believe this. I believe that by mastering chess I am – though I’m not fully mastered. It’s too complex, too difficult; it’s quasi-infinite, but by mastering a large subset of the skills required to play chess well. I can see strategic opportunities in life. Tactful opportunities, business opportunities, and I think opportunities are key. In chess, you can form a strategy, an overall play, but the real key to chess is grasping opportunities that arise. It is something that happens.

If your opponent makes a mistake, you will cease it, jump on it, and exploit it. I think one of the things that I am quite good at is seeing opportunities, using them quickly, and thinking fast. I think chess helps with this. From chess, it is possible from one thing to learn ten thousand. By mastering one thing, you can apply those techniques to other things. That was the central message of Musashi.[87]

I wrote a book with an American martial artist called Michael Gelb.[88] It’s called Samurai Chess in which we explain that theory.[89] That if you master chess, this will help you in all other areas of your life. It will give you insight into the way strategy works, tactic works, opportunity ceasing works, and so on. I firmly believe that. Chess teaches the ability to cease opportunities, exploit situations, and think quickly. I’ll give you another example.

In 1968, I was coming home from a dinner at Simpsons on the Strand, which used to be a chess club. And outside my house, somebody tried to mug me. Great thug said, “Give me your wallet.” And I thought, “We’ll see about this.” This guy was there threatening, saying, “Give me all your money.” It was like I was playing a chess game, where I had to make a quick decision. Does he have a gun? Does he have a knife? Is he going to start with his fist? I rapidly summed up the situation, and punched him in the nose. He ran away. (Laughs) I think chess-playing helped with that. I had to analyze a whole bunch of factors quickly, form a conclusion, and act on it. I did; I won.

He ran away. I did not. As far as I was concerned, that was victory. Chess was helpful. I felt like I was in a chess situation. Fortunately, he did not have a knife.

11. Jacobsen: A lot of research given through brain training programs, most of the experts note that there is no general transferability of ability. Here, as far as I understand, there seems to be sufficient general transferability into other domains of life.

Keene: That is right. It is what I have done in my own life. I feel that my ability transferred from chess to other things. In terms of speed of thought, grabbing opportunities, summarizing situations quickly, analyzing the long-term against the short-term, it may be that the experts, or the other experts, are looking at things too rigidly, and do not interpret at things fluidly enough. However, I can say, looking at my own experience, that I can transfer things. I feel it is possible for other people as well.

12. Jacobsen: I suspect this involves two variables. One, the length of time. Two, the complexity of the tasks. For instance, when it comes to the typical brain training programs online now, most of them do not seem to necessitate complexity. In addition, most people likely do not pursue them for long periods. Therefore, when people test them for transferability, there does not seem to be much transfer. With chess, people begin at the age of 6 or 7, might be a child prodigy, and then can train for decades to get to the desired Grandmaster title, and then from that acquire the benefits. The length time, in addition to the “quasi-infinite” status, as you noted, might indicate the level of complexity there plus time would breed some form of, at least, relative general transferability.

Keene: That is a good explanation. I would say that sounds true, yes.

13. Jacobsen: Will computers surpass the greatest competitive human chess Grandmasters on a consistent basis (if it hasn’t already happened)?

Keene: It has happened. That is the trouble. It really has happened. We have got the state now where the top Grandmasters are learning from computers. I, honestly, think that matches between humans and computers are pretty well a thing of the past. I think the top computers won. And I am afraid some of the solutions computers come up with to complex chess positions, even the best players do not think of these things. I mean they are so anti-intuitive it is not true.

There are still occasions. There was one of the games from the Carlsen-Anand match, not the last one, but the one from before in 2013, when computers were still saying the game was drawn, and Carlsen was planning a way to win it.[90],[91] This is becoming increasingly rare, and as computers get better and better, and they will get better and better, I do not think we are ever going to catch up. I think we are going to have to accept the fact that like athletes who run, that the motor cars are always – the Formula 1 cars are always – going to be a bit faster. There’s not much we can do about it. I find it a shame. I mean it is a bit of shame. When the genie is out of the bottle, what can be done about it?

There is nothing that can be done about it. I really do not see a human player ever getting to the point where they can consistently beat computers. I think we are gonna draw games, get in situations where you do not actually lose. I think it is an uphill task. That point of no return has already been passed. It annoys me. I do not want to say that, but it sounds like the truth to me.

14. Jacobsen: An old question relates to the ratio of innate talent and environmental influence on ability. In terms of chess talent, what seems like the proper ratio of contribution between general ability and training for their influence on chess performance? 

Keene: I that there are few people with an innate talent for chess. It is rare. Even Magnus Carlsen did not have an innate talent for chess, it is not like he went to the chess board and could immediately beat his father or his brother.[92] He could not. He was attracted to chess and then he worked at it. He could absorb information very quickly. His main talent was being able to absorb information very quickly.

I think Morphy and Capablanca had an innate talent for the game.[93],94] Even Kasparov, I do not think had an innate talent.[95] He was a bright guy, good at absorbing information, assimilating it, and processing it. It happens chess attracted him. I am not sure he had an innate gift for it. There is a difference between talented and gifted. Talent being good, clever, and so on. Gift means like a gift from God. I think Morphy and Capablanca had some kind of divine gift for chess.[96],[97]

I mean their games, at early ages.  When the amount of published chess information was pretty small, compared to what it is now, they can only really pick it up from watching other people play. And improving upon the principles they saw adumbrated on the games they saw there. With all of that sort of information, to play at that level that early, argues for some sort of gift, really gifted, to me. That is not the case for many people at all. I am trying to think of artists.

I mean Mozart was really gifted, but he came from a musical environment. I guess his own kids were great musicians.[98] Bach created a musical environment. A whole bunch of Bach’s went further on in music.[99] They were good on their own, but not in the same league, and there are chess players who’s fathers were good chess players, and who became chess players as well. The Littlewood Brothers, there was John Littlewood. Both of them came in second in the British Championship on a number of occasions. The son of John Littlewood, Norman Littlewood, won the British Championship, and he ended up becoming Grandmaster.[100]

Giftedness is rare, but possible. Talent is usually a talent. There is something, which gets channeled into chess. Environment can go a long way. For instance, the Polgar sisters. Now, Judith Polgar is the best of the Polgar sisters.[101],[102],[103] She lived chess from a very early age, but she never became World Champion. She got into the top 10. You think that someone who is a talented person, which she clearly is, exposed to that much chess information and that much chess intuition might become World Champion. She did not.

There are some chess players like Karpov and Kramnik, and Kasparov.[104],[105],[106] There were certain areas of chess that she mastered like tactics.  It was a strategically slower game. She had some troubles. You need a rare combination of talent in something, the desire to play chess, and a favorable environment before you become a great champion.

Some of those like Morphy and Capablanca were gifted, but gifted in the long run did not help them.[107],[108] Capablanca won the World Championship once.[109] He never dominated the way he you think he might have done afterwards.

Morphy gave up chess.[110] Bobby Fischer was not gifted in chess.[111]I think he was talented. He did not even have really favorable environmental conditions. He gave up chess. It is hard to tell. I think the ideal strong chess player is someone who is intellectually curious and has a talent for something which goes into chess. I think persistence is very important.

I think that Emmanuel Lasker, for example, held the World Championship for a very long time, but I do not think he was gifted at chess.[112] He was a talented person. Intellectually active, discovered chess, fell in love with it, and stayed in the top for an extraordinary length of time. Somehow, I feel that is the ideal combination to produce someone who was a really great champion.

15. Jacobsen: Young people continue to pursue, with deep passion, the world, and mastery, of chess. Below the level of Grandmaster, what benefits accrue for students in the process of learning, competing, and honing their abilities for chess?

Keene: It trains you in many things. One of them is to a certain extent logic. I have some trouble with the concept of logic because one person’s logic is somebody else’s illogic.

Imagine a chess game, where you have two ways of getting an advantage, one is to gain more mobility; the other one is to gain extra material. Now, if you’re writing commentary on the game with the benefit of hindsight, if the thing done by the person concerned works, there’s tendency to say, “This is more logical than doing Y.” And if it doesn’t work, you can say, “More logical would have be that.”

I think there are moments when the fine-tuning of judgment in any situation. That is not just in the chess board. That is in all areas in life. What is more or less logical, is somewhat relativistic, it is; logic is, quite often, conferred by the outcome, not by the process.

Let’s say there are two guys moving toward you with the intention of killing you, okay? And you have a gun, and you can pick off one or the other in sequence. But one of the guys has a gun, and one of the guys has a sword, and they’re both going to kill you, alright? But there both 200 yards away, alright? You can kill both of them as long as you do it in time. Which one is it more logical to kill?

The logical thing to do is shoot the man with the gun because he can shoot you from a distance, and then turn your attention to the man with the sword who has to get much closer to you before he can do any damage. Okay?

I would say that is the logical way of looking at it, okay? But what if you don’t know that the man with the sword has the ability to throw the sword 200 yards and kill you? And then you shoot the guy with the gun, and while you’re doing that, the man with the sword hurls the sword and kills you. So the logic suddenly becomes more hazy because it becomes more dependent on a lot of factors you cannot necessarily determine.

Therefore, what is prima facie logical can be influenced by hidden factors to be illogical.[113] What I am saying is there are so many factors in complex situations that what may or may not appear logical may, in fact, be, or not be, logical. So, logic is harder to determine than, “Oh that’s logical and that’s not logical.”

There are shades of distinction. And in chess, you can often make the case for something being logical, but if you work hard at it, you can make an equally good case that somebody else is being logical too. So when I say chess develops the skill of logic – yes, it does in general – but I have trouble with the question of logic because I’m not too sure that logic always holds up.

It fosters the skill of analysis. It teaches you to analyze. You cannot get by in chess without seeing an abstract pattern, and seeing combinations and maneuvers in your head that it definitely helps through. I think it also helps with concentration. So kids who do chess at school will concentrate better at maths or science, or whatever, because they’ve learned to focus on chess.

And I think the other thing it helps with, and I think this is very important, and I think this is the major attraction is that it enables you to win, because so often in life is what you try to achieve has an opaque outcome, can’t see the outcome, the outcome is deferred. You play a game of chess, and you can win it. You can win it quite quickly.

And if you play, within ten minutes, you can win. Winning, I think, is the basis of the prime human commodity, which is identity. I think the more commodities that human beings crave, whether they know it or not, the most important, the most significant, the most enriching, is identity. And winning a game of chess confers identity on you.

Let me give you an example, modern life for a lot of people is anonymous. You do a lot of things online. You don’t interact with human beings. You don’t feel as though you’re a real person, and the machine is replying to you. And quite often, say you want to complain about something, let’s say that somebody is dumping rubbish in your street, but you want to complain to the local government.

Certainly in the UK, this can be a long process for somebody who tends to your needs and takes you seriously, or like the government owes you a tax rebate.[114] It can take you a long time to get a tax rebate. And there’s a tendency in modern life that is mechanized, computerized. Voice mail systems that say, “Press button 1, now press button 2, and press button 3.”

And as an individual, you find that your identity is attenuated. That you’re not being recognized. That other human beings are saying that you do not exist. It is a wide-spread disease in modern Westernized societies. I think playing a game of chess. You beat somebody. That person resigns. You see them concede your victory. You suddenly ratchet up your ontological rating considerably. Your identity becomes confirmed.

Something out in the universe identifies that you exist. And I think that all goods in the sense of money, fame, wealth, sex; all these things are roots to serve validation, ontological validation: an identity. I think that chess can do wonders for one’s own identity.

Ergo, it is pretty good to teach to kids who come from underprivileged backgrounds that they suddenly feel a sense of self-worth, achievement, and a very quick sense of self-worth and achievement. Okay, you’re going to lose games, draw some games, but you’re going to win some games. But the wins are more valuable to their psyche than their losses, and their losses and draws are inimical.

16. Jacobsen: Of the present crop of the young Grandmasters, Magnus Carlsen stands above the rest.[115] What are your thoughts on his achievements, talent, and future trajectory?

Keene: I think his main talent is in preventing games from drying up, becoming drawn. And I don’t think he tries to take a big advantage after the opening like Kasparov did.[116] I don’t think he tried to destroy the opponents. He simply tried to keep the battle going, and thinks that if it goes on long enough the other guy will make a mistake and he’ll win. So his games are very hard to read.

Quite often, “What on Earth is he trying to do?” All he’s trying to do is to stop the game from going drawn. He’s not badly off, or it is level, but not dead; he can play on, and on, and on, and win in the end. I think that is his main talent. I think that if he carries on he has the capacity to equal the achievements of people like Kasparov and Karpov as champion. I do not see anyone remotely threatening his reign as champion.

There are other guys like Wesley So, or Anish Gurie, or Nakamura, or Caruano, but I think he’s got the measure of all of them.[117],[118],[119],[120]   I don’t he’s got a serious rival at all. He’s still dreadfully young.[121] He could be world champion in 20 years. He could end up as the greatest player ever. I do not think his games will turn out as the most attractive games ever. In terms of sheer results, he’s got the potential, if he carries on to get the best sporting results of any of the world champions. He has a weakness.

His weakness is arrogance. Occasionally, he just gets overconfident, and plays like a complete idiot because he thinks that he can do anything and win. He lost a couple of games in the chess Olympiad last year by being arrogant. But if sticks to what he’s doing, does not relax, he could be the greatest ever.

17. Jacobsen: For the world of chess, the people and sport, what seems like the most probable near and far future?

Keene: There are a lot of people that say we should be using randomized opening positions, that the pieces should be shuffled at the start of the game. It’s called Fischer Random. I don’t think highly of that idea at all. It’s a bad idea. The pieces are where they are at the beginning of the game because they are most harmoniously placed for military action, and if you mess this up you get stranger portions. I think chess is sufficiently infinite to be carried on playing in its current form for a very long time. There may come a point when computers solve it.

Computers have more or less solved checkers. It’s a long time before computers completely solve chess. I think it’s too complicated. When they can tell you what is going on at any given position to play a couple openers and analyze how every possible game, and every possible conclusion, is a long way off.

I think if chess were to be played out in its current form rather than put the pieces on random different squares. I am prepared to expand the board to a 100 squares in a continental draft, which is a 10×10 board. Add a couple extra pieces, a piece that moves, like a rook or a knight or something like that.

A queen with a rook and a bishop, and a piece that moves like a rook and a knight, and I think a small simple change – Japanese chess is played on a 9×9 board. Continental draft is 10×10. 8×8 is a convention. You can easily play on a 9×9 board or a 10×10 board, but mixing up the pieces at the start I really do not like at all.

My prediction on the exhaustibility, or inexhaustibility, of chess. Tamburlaine the Great, the great Mongol conqueror used to play on a much bigger board with more pieces.[122],[123],[124]They used to have camels and things like that. There is precedent for that sort of thing.

One of the big developments will be more female players. Personally, I cannot understand why there shouldn’t be more female players. It is more cultural than anything else rather than brain power. I think fewer women, culturally, have played chess professionally, made a career out of it. There will become more, and more, strong female players.

Manahel, for example, is a very bright person.[125],[126],[127],[128],[129]I am sure if she had taken up chess as a young person she would have done well. A very sharp mind. I think more female players, and younger players. I think players are getting younger and younger, and both sexes are taking it up. I am not immediately worried about the possibility of chess being exhausted. It is more or less infinite. If there is a problem, rather than shuffle the pieces at the start, I would rather add two more pieces to the board than 10×10. I know that would solve the problem.

Japanese chess, for example, Shogi, they have a rule, when you catch an opponent’s piece it becomes yours, and it is a gain on your side.[130]Maybe, that is something we should consider as well.  However, I do not think that crisis has been reached. I don’t think it will be reached for some time.

18. Jacobsen: Some methodologies in chess combine human pattern recognition and computer massive serial processing with chess algorithms. How does this process work at the highest level of achievement in chess (say, greater than or equal to 2,700 FIDE rating)?

Keene: The very top players nowadays, certainly players above 2,500, are learning from computers. The kind of chess they’re playing is often quite antithetical to what you would call “classical chess.” I mean there are all of these anti-intuitive move of players at the highest level nowadays. To be frank, I do not know what they are doing. Some of their strategic ideas or long-term moves I find really weird. I’m sure this is influenced by computers. They’re using computers to analyze. They invent moves in their own games that a computer will improve, which wouldn’t necessarily have been used by human analysts. Human are already revolutionizing even quite standard positions. They’re coming up with ideas that are totally alien to all that’s gone before.

19. Jacobsen: What common personality trait do the great chess Grandmasters have in common?

Keene: I would say it is determination. All of the top chess grandmasters are very determined. It is not just good enough to be able to understand chess. You’ve got to be able a sportsman as well. And sportsman in the sense of wanting to win and being able to adapt to difficult or changing circumstances on the move as it were. For example, there was a big tournament in St. Louis recently. It was a million dollar international grand prix. One of the talented players in it is a Philippine grandmaster name Wesley So. A very good player, he’s been up-and-coming for a long time. He’s born in the Philippines, but now he represents the USA. But he came near the bottom. The reason he came near the bottom is because he doesn’t have the same killer instinct that the other players in the tournament did, and not all of the other players, Anand, for instance, who was the former world champion, who has “been there and done that,” but his ambition is waning. I mean, he’s still a superb player, but he still doesn’t have the hunger that the others have; unless you have that, if you are in a bad position, or about to make a loss, total commitment, total determination, you normally succeed at the top. It’s a sporting quality, not just chess talent. You can have great comprehension of chess without necessarily having that killer instinct that makes you a supreme practitioner.

20. Jacobsen: Some unfortunate cases of chess genius going awry come to mind such as the late Bobby Fischer, for instance. Does this happen often in the chess world?

Keene: No, I do not think it happens any more in the chess world that I think it happens in any other area of high performance. I think Fischer, I think he was bonkers, went completely insane, especially towards the end.  These players can go mad. For example, Tony Miles was clinically insane. He had drug treatments to suppress his insanity. There were one or two others. I do not think it is any worse than in any other area of high performance. I think people in any area of high performance will be subjected to exceptional stress and all sorts of mental problems can occur. I mean most of the top chess players – Garry Kasparov, Karpov, Carlsen, Kramnik – are very sane, rational people. I don’t think chess causes mental illness at all. In fact, one chess commentator said, “Chess is one way of keeping crazy people sane.”

21. Jacobsen: What chess Grandmasters remain underrated?

Keene: In the modern world, it is very difficult to be underrated because the rating system is mathematically based on results. If you score well, you will rise in the rating system. I would say none of the modern players are underrated. They are rated exactly where they should be because their results place them in the place where they ought to be. So the question is only really relevant to historical characters. I would say a prime example of someone who is underrated is a guy named Efim Boguljubov.

He’s often dismissed because he lost the World Championship matches twice to Alexander Alekhine. People tend to dismiss saying, “He didn’t deserve to be in the World Championship.” Actually, if you look at this guy’s results, he won the Russian Championship or, as it was, the Soviet Championship. He then emigrated and won the German Championship. Then he held the German and Russian Championships in the same year. He won major international tournaments. He thoroughly deserved his crack at the title. The fact that Alekhine defeated him easily is not a comment on Boguljubov, but a comment on Alekhine. I think he deserved a much higher ranking than he is normally accorded. He is one that deserves a lot more credit than he’s got.

In the modern era, I don’t think there is anybody who is underrated because the rating system tends to put people exactly where they should be. The only player I can think of, and this is not a question of underrating but it is a question of bad luck, was man named Paul Keres, an Estonian Grandmaster, who was number 3 in the world for a long time. He was number 3 in the world in 1948 and probably number 2, or 3, in 1938. Even in 1969, he was still very much near the top. In 1962, he was number 3 in the world. He maintained these positions for a very long time. He was always coming second in the qualifiers. He was somebody who I think people would have liked to see become World Champion, but he never quite got through that final hurdle of ruthlessness that characterizes the great champions like Alekhine, Botvinnnik, and Kasparov. So I think Keres and Boguljubov are the two that are the most underrated.

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Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Knight of the Order of the White Swan, (conferred by ) Prince Marek Kasperski Chevalier of the Order of Champagne; Chair, Outside in Pathways; Director, Brain Trust Charity; Former British Chess Champion; Bronze Medal, World Team Championship; Right to Arms, Royal College of Arms; Freeman of the City of London; Winner (Two Times), Global Chess Oscar; Ex-Head (1994-2000), Mind Sports Faculty; Ex-Chess Tutor, Imperial Court of Iran; Gold Medal, Chinese Olympic Association; Gold Medalist, European Championship; Honorary Board Member, World Intelligence Network (WIN); The Global Media and PR Director, World Memory Sports Council; Ex-Head (2013/2014), Leadership Academies Prince Philipp of Liechtenstein and President of Mexico, Vicente Fox, in Leon; Britain’s Senior International Chess Grandmaster; International Arbiter, Fédération Internationale des Échecs (FIDE) or World Chess Federation; Co-Founder, World Memory Championships; Count of the Order of Torres Madras, Portugal; Officer of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (OBE); journalist; columnist; and author.

[2] First publication on April 15, 2018 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/keene-one.

[3] Photograph courtesy of Count & Grand Master Raymond Dennis Keene, O.B.E and Byron Jacobs.

[4] Master of Arts, Modern Languages, Dulwich College, Trinity College, Cambridge.

[5] According to The Gifted Academy Distinguished Patron (2015), it states:

“MA Trinity College Cambridge; Officer of British Empire, awarded by HM the Queen in person. Britain’s senior International chess Grandmaster, former British chess champion and Gold medallist in European Championship, writes every day in The Times. Ray has also written the world record 197 books (translated into 13 languages) on Chess, Mind Sports, Genius, Mental World Records, Art  and Thinking, and has won numerous first prizes in  international chess tournaments across five continents.

Ray also writes regularly for The Sunday Times, The Spectator, The Daily Yomiuri Tokyo, The Australian and The Gulf News. Ray studied German at Trinity where Ray shared lodgings with H R H Prince Charles. In 1981 Ray was awarded Gold Medal of Chinese Olympic Association; before 1975 was chess tutor to The Imperial Court of Iran. Raised £1.4m for 3 Mind Sports Olympiads 1997, 1998, 1999 – organised 1st ever Man vs Computer World Championship in any thinking sport -World Draughts Championship London 1992. Ray was appointed head of Mind Sports Faculty for 1994-2000 and 2013/2014 Leadership Academies of Prince Philipp of Liechtenstein and President of Mexico, Vicente Fox, in Leon. Twice winner of Global Chess Oscar as world’s best chess writer.

Ray co-founded and organised the World Memory Championship 22 times since 1991. Personal bests in chess displays  challenging multiple opponents at the same time,107 simultaneous opponents at Oxford 1973 where he won 101, drew 5 and lost one, and Leon Mexico 2013, defeating 17 opponents simultaneously without sight of the boards or pieces. Translator of Goethe’s Faust into English.  Freeman of the City of London and granted right to Arms by the Royal College of Arms.”

Please see The Gifted Academy. (2015). Distinguished Patron. Retrieved from http://www.thegiftedacademy.com/the-board.

[6] Please see London. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/place/London.

[7] Please see London. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/place/London.

[8] Please see chess. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/chess.

[9] In The World Championship and FIDE (2015) of the Encyclopedia Britannica, it states:

“IDE also took over the Women’s World Championship and biennial Olympiad team championships, which originated in the 1920s. In addition, the federation developed new championship titles, particularly for junior players in various age groups. It also created a system for recognizing top players by arithmetic rating and by titles based on tournament performance. The highest title, after World Champion, is International Grandmaster, of whom there are now more than 500 in the world.”

Please see chess. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/chess.

[10] Please see The Spectator. (2015). Raymond Keene. Retrieved from http://www.spectator.co.uk/author/raymond-keene/.

[11] Please see The Spectator. (2015). Raymond Keene. Retrieved from http://www.spectator.co.uk/author/raymond-keene/.

[12] Please see British Championship 2015. (2015). British Championship 2015. Retrieved from http://www.britishchesschampionships.co.uk/2015/.

[13] Please see Chessdom.com (2015). European Chess Championship 2015 LIVE!. Retrieved from http://www.chessdom.com/european-individual-chess-championship-2015-jerusalem/.

[14] Please see World Chess Championship 2015. (2015). World Team Chess Championship 2015. Retrieved from http://tsaghkadzor2015.fide.com/.

[15] Please see University of Cambridge. (2015). University of Cambridge. Retrieved from https://www.cam.ac.uk/.

[16] Please see Barnes and Noble. (2015). Raymond Keene. Retrieved from http://www1.barnesandnoble.com/c/raymond-keene.

[17] Please see JacketFlap. (2015). About Raymond Keene. Retrieved from http://www.jacketflap.com/raymond-keene/129027.

[18] Please see Simon and Schuster. (2015). Raymond Keene. Retrieved from http://authors.simonandschuster.com/Raymond-Keene/706694.

[19] Please see The Croyden Citizen. (2015). Raymond Keene. Retrieved from https://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=K4vGVc6hEIyV8QfIjZmoDg&gws_rd=ssl#q=Raymond+Keene&start=40.

[20] Please see The Spectator. (2015). Raymond Keene. Retrieved from http://www.spectator.co.uk/author/raymond-keene/.

[21] Please see Waterstones. (2015). Raymond Keene. Retrieved from https://www.waterstones.com/author/raymond-keene/184662.

[22] Please see Jose Raul Capablanca. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Jose-Raul-Capablanca.

[23] Please see Garry Kasparov. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Garry-Kasparov.

[24] Please see Jose Raul Capablanca. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Jose-Raul-Capablanca.

[25] Please see Paul Charles Morphy. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Paul-Charles-Morphy.

[26] Please see Jose Raul Capablanca. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Jose-Raul-Capablanca.

[27] Please see Garry Kasparov. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Garry-Kasparov.

[28] In Encyclopedia Britannica Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (2015), it, in part, states:

“Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, (born August 28, 1749, Frankfurt am Main [Germany]—died March 22, 1832, Weimar, Saxe-Weimar), German poet, playwright, novelist, scientist, statesman, theatre director, critic, and amateur artist, considered the greatest German literary figure of the modern era.

Goethe is the only German literary figure whose range and international standing equal those of Germany’s supreme philosophers (who have often drawn on his works and ideas) and composers (who have often set his works to music). In the literary culture of the German-speaking countries, he has had so dominant a position that, since the end of the 18th century, his writings have been described as “classical.” In a European perspective he appears as the central and unsurpassed representative of the Romantic Movement, broadly understood. He could be said to stand in the same relation to the culture of the era that began with the Enlightenment and continues to the present day as William Shakespeare does to the culture of the Renaissance and Dante to the culture of the High Middle Ages. His Faust, though eminently stageworthy when suitably edited, is also Europe’s greatest long poem since John Milton’s Paradise Lost, if not since Dante’s The Divine Comedy.”

Please see Johann Wolfgang von Goethe. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Johann-Wolfgang-von-Goethe.

[29] Please see Romanticism. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/art/Romanticism.

[30] Please see Enlightenment. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/event/Enlightenment-European-history.

[31] Please see Goethe, J.W.V. (1808). Faust. Retrieved from http://www.gutenberg.org/files/14591/14591-h/14591-h.htm.

[32] In Encyclopedia Britannica Faust (2015), it, in part, states:

“Faust, two-part dramatic work by Johann Wolfgang von Goethe. Part I was published in 1808 and Part II in 1832, after the author’s death. The supreme work of Goethe’s later years, Faust is sometimes considered Germany’s greatest contribution to world literature.

Part I sets out the magician Faust’s despair, his pact with Mephistopheles, and his love for Gretchen. Part II covers Faust’s life at court, the wooing and winning of Helen of Troy, and his purification and salvation.

In earlier eras the play was often decried as formless because of its array of lyric, epic, dramatic, operatic, and balletic elements. It includes almost every known poetic metre, from doggerel through terza rima to six-foot trimetre (a line of verse consisting of three measures), and a number of styles ranging from Greek tragedy through medieval mystery, baroque allegory, Renaissance masque, and commedia dell’arte to something akin to the modern revue.”

Please see Faust. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/Faust-play.

[33] Please see Johann Wolfgang von Goethe. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Johann-Wolfgang-von-Goethe.

[34] Please see Goethe, J.W.V. (1788). Egmont. Retrieved from http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1945/1945-h/1945-h.htm.

[35] In Encyclopedia Britannica Egmont (2015), it, in part, states:

“Egmont, tragic drama in five acts by J.W. von Goethe, published in 1788 and produced in 1789. The hero is based upon the historical figure of Lamoraal, count of Egmond (Egmont), a 16th-century Dutch leader during the Counter-Reformation. The work had great appeal for European audiences excited by the new movements toward democracy and nationalism.

The play is set during the period in which the Netherlands was suffering under the harsh rule of Roman Catholic Spain. The story pits the sympathetic and tolerant Egmont against the fierce and brutal Spanish Duke of Alva (a character based on Fernando Álvarez de Toledo y Pimentel, 3er duque de Alba), who is sent to repress further Protestant rebellion. Egmont proves to be no match for the scheming Alva, and he is sentenced to die. At the conclusion of the play, however, he has a vision of the eventual triumph of freedom.”

Please see Egmont. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/Egmont.

[36] Please see Goethe, J.W.V. (1808). Faust. Retrieved from http://www.gutenberg.org/files/14591/14591-h/14591-h.htm.

[37] Please see Goethe, J.W.V. (1808). Faust. Retrieved from http://www.gutenberg.org/files/14591/14591-h/14591-h.htm.

[38] Please see Goethe, J.W.V. (1808). Faust. Retrieved from http://www.gutenberg.org/files/14591/14591-h/14591-h.htm.

[39] Please see Johann Wolfgang von Goethe. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Johann-Wolfgang-von-Goethe.

[40] Please see Sir Isaac Newton. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Isaac-Newton.

[41] Please see Johann Peter Eckermann. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Johann-Peter-Eckermann.

[42] Please see Johann Wolfgang von Goethe. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Johann-Wolfgang-von-Goethe.

[43] Please see Napoleon I. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Napoleon-I.

[44] A reference to the polymath nature of Johann Wolfgang von Goethe. Please see Leonardo da Vinci. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Leonardo-da-Vinci.

[45] Please see William Shakespeare. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/William-Shakespeare.

[46] Please see Johann Wolfgang von Goethe. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Johann-Wolfgang-von-Goethe.

[47] Please see Johann Wolfgang von Goethe. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Johann-Wolfgang-von-Goethe.

[48] Please see The Brain Trust Charity (2015). Raymond Keene OBE. Retrieved from http://www.braintrust.org.uk/about-us/raymond-keene-obe/.

[49] Please see Barnes and Noble. (2015). Raymond Keene. Retrieved from http://www1.barnesandnoble.com/c/raymond-keene.

[50] Please see JacketFlap. (2015). About Raymond Keene. Retrieved from http://www.jacketflap.com/raymond-keene/129027.

[51] Please see Simon and Schuster. (2015). Raymond Keene. Retrieved from http://authors.simonandschuster.com/Raymond-Keene/706694.

[52] Please see The Croyden Citizen. (2015). Raymond Keene. Retrieved from https://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=K4vGVc6hEIyV8QfIjZmoDg&gws_rd=ssl#q=Raymond+Keene&start=40.

[53] Please see The Spectator. (2015). Raymond Keene. Retrieved from http://www.spectator.co.uk/author/raymond-keene/.

[54] Please see Waterstones. (2015). Raymond Keene. Retrieved from https://www.waterstones.com/author/raymond-keene/184662.

[55] Please see The Brain Trust Charity (2015). Raymond Keene OBE. Retrieved from http://www.braintrust.org.uk/about-us/raymond-keene-obe/.

[56] Please see The Brain Trust Charity (2015). Raymond Keene OBE. Retrieved from http://www.braintrust.org.uk/about-us/raymond-keene-obe/.

[57] Please see The Brain Trust Charity (2015). Raymond Keene OBE. Retrieved from http://www.braintrust.org.uk/about-us/raymond-keene-obe/.

[58] Please see The Brain Trust Charity (2015). Raymond Keene OBE. Retrieved from http://www.braintrust.org.uk/about-us/raymond-keene-obe/.

[59] Please see The Brain Trust Charity (2015). Raymond Keene OBE. Retrieved from http://www.braintrust.org.uk/about-us/raymond-keene-obe/.

[60] Please see The Brain Trust Charity (2015). Raymond Keene OBE. Retrieved from http://www.braintrust.org.uk/about-us/raymond-keene-obe/.

[61] Please see The Brain Trust Charity (2015). Raymond Keene OBE. Retrieved from http://www.braintrust.org.uk/about-us/raymond-keene-obe/.

[62] In Encyclopedia Britannica House of Bragança (2015), it, in part, states:

“House of Bragança, English Braganza, ruling dynasty of Portugal from 1640 to 1910 and of the empire of Brazil from 1822 to 1889.

The first duke of Bragança was Afonso (d. 1461), an illegitimate son of the Portuguese king John I. When Portugal gained its independence from Spain in 1640, João II, 8th duke of Bragança, ascended the Portuguese throne as John IV. Thereafter the title duke of Bragança was borne by the heir presumptive to the throne. The new dynasty lasted until the death of Maria II in 1853. Her two sons (Peter V and Louis), grandson (Charles), and great grandson (Manuel II), all of the House of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha-Koháry (their father’s dynastic house), ruled until the end of the monarchy in 1910.”

Please see House of Braganca. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/House-of-Braganca.

[63] “Pro rata” means “proportional ratio.”

[64] Please see Garry Kasparov. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Garry-Kasparov.

[65] Please see Brussels. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/place/Brussels.

[66] Please see Garry Kasparov. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Garry-Kasparov.

[67] Please see Vladimir Kramnik. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Vladimir-Kramnik.

[68] Please see Viswanathan Anand. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Vishwanathan-Anand.

[69] Please see World Chess Federation. (2015). FIDE: Standard Top 100 Players August 2015. Retrieved from https://ratings.fide.com/top.phtml?list=men.

[70] Please see Carlsen, M. (2015). About. Retrieved from http://magnuscarlsen.com/about.

[71] Please see Harry Golombek. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Harry-Golombek.

[72] Please see The Times. (2015). The Times. Retrieved from http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/.

[73] Please see The Sunday Times. (2015). The Sunday Times. Retrieved from http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/.

[74] Please see The Brain Trust Charity (2015). Raymond Keene OBE. Retrieved from http://www.braintrust.org.uk/about-us/raymond-keene-obe/.

[75] Please see The Australian. (2015). The Australian. Retrieved from http://www.theaustralian.com.au/.

[76] Please see The Spectator. (2015). Raymond Keene. Retrieved from http://www.spectator.co.uk/author/raymond-keene/.

[77] Please see The Times. (2015). The Times. Retrieved from http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/.

[78] Please see The Times. (2015). The Times. Retrieved from http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/.

[79] Please see Gulf News. (2015). Gulf News. Retrieved from http://gulfnews.com/.

[80] Please see The Times. (2015). The Times. Retrieved from http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/.

[81] Please see Gulf News. (2015). Gulf News. Retrieved from http://gulfnews.com/.

[82] In About: Tony Buzan – Inventor of Mind Mapping (2015), it, in full, states:

“Tony Buzan is the world-renowned inventor of Mind Mapping and expert on the brain, memory, speed reading, creativity and innovation. He has been named as one of the world’s top 5 speakers by Forbes magazine.

Through over 40 years of research into the workings of the brain, Tony Buzan is dedicating his life to developing and refining techniques to help individuals think better and more creatively, and reach their full potential. He has awakened the brains of millions worldwide.

Described as “one of the most influential leaders in the field of thinking creatively”, Tony utilises his accredited training courses to build a network of highly specialised experts in creative thinking, memory and speed reading techniques. Tony Buzan imparts his knowledge and expertise on the three ThinkBuzan Licensed Instructor courses in Mind Mapping, Memory and Speed Reading, which he both leads and accredits. The ThinkBuzan accredited training courses bring practical skills to delegates all over the world including individuals from FTSE multinational corporations, leading global universities and Government departments.”

Please see Buzan, T. (2015). About. Retrieved from http://www.tonybuzan.com/about/.

[83] Please see World Memory Championships. (2015). About Us. Retrieved from http://www.worldmemorychampionships.com/about-2/.

[84] Please see The Brain Trust Charity (2015). Raymond Keene OBE. Retrieved from http://www.braintrust.org.uk/about-us/raymond-keene-obe/.

[85] Please see Miyamoto Musashi. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Miyamoto-Musashi-Japanese-soldier-artist.

[86] Please see Miyamoto Musashi. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Miyamoto-Musashi-Japanese-soldier-artist.

[87] Please see Miyamoto Musashi. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Miyamoto-Musashi-Japanese-soldier-artist.

[88] Please see Gelb, M. (2015). Michael Gelb. Retrieved from http://michaelgelb.com/.

[89] Please see Amazon. (2015). Samurai Chess. Retrieved from http://www.amazon.com/Samurai-Chess-Mastering-Strategic-Thinking/dp/0802775497.

[90] Please see Viswanathan Anand. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Vishwanathan-Anand.

[91] Please see Carlsen, M. (2015). About. Retrieved from http://magnuscarlsen.com/about.

[92] Please see Carlsen, M. (2015). About. Retrieved from http://magnuscarlsen.com/about.

[93] Please see Paul Charles Morphy. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Paul-Charles-Morphy.

[94] Please see Jose Raul Capablanca. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Jose-Raul-Capablanca.

[95] Please see Garry Kasparov. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Garry-Kasparov.

[96] Please see Paul Charles Morphy. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Paul-Charles-Morphy.

[97] Please see Jose Raul Capablanca. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Jose-Raul-Capablanca.

[98] Please see Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Wolfgang-Amadeus-Mozart.

[99] Please see Johann Sebastian Bach. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Johann-Sebastian-Bach.

[100] Please see British Championship 2015. (2015). British Championship 2015. Retrieved from http://www.britishchesschampionships.co.uk/2015/.

[101] In Encyclopedia Britannica Susan Polar (2015), it states:

“Susan Polgar, original name Zsuzsanna Polgár (born April 19, 1969, Budapest, Hung.), Hungarian-born American chess player who won the women’s world championship in 1996 from Xie Jun of China. In 1999 Polgar was stripped of her title by the Fédération Internationale des Échecs (FIDE; the international chess organization) for failing to agree to match conditions.”

Please see Susan Polgar. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Susan-Polgar.

[102] In Encyclopedia Britannica Judit Polgar (2015), it stats:

“Judit Polgár, (born July 23, 1976, Budapest, Hung.), the youngest of three chess-playing sisters (see also Susan Polgar). She earned the (men’s) International Master (IM) chess title at the age of 12 and set a new record (since beaten) by becoming the youngest (men’s) International Grandmaster (GM) in history at the age of 15 years 4 months, eclipsing Bobby Fischer’s record by a month.

Apart from her gold-medal-winning appearances for the Hungarian women’s Olympiad teams of 1988 and 1990, Polgár has spurned women-only events. She defeated former world chess champion Boris Spassky in a match in 1993. In 1994 she went undefeated in winning a chess tournament in Madrid, Spain, the first woman to win a strong grandmaster tournament open to both genders.”

Please see Judit Polgar. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Judit-Polgar.

[103] Please see chess. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/chess.

[104] Please see Anatoly Yevgenyevich Karpov. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Anatoly-Yevgenyevich-Karpov.

[105] Please see Vladimir Kramnik. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Vladimir-Kramnik.

[106] Please see Garry Kasparov. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Garry-Kasparov.

[107] Please see Paul Charles Morphy. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Paul-Charles-Morphy.

[108] Please see Jose Raul Capablanca. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Jose-Raul-Capablanca.

[109] Please see Jose Raul Capablanca. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Jose-Raul-Capablanca.

[110] Please see Paul Charles Morphy. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Paul-Charles-Morphy.

[111] Please see Bobby Fischer. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Bobby-Fischer.

[112] Please see Emanuel Lasker. (2015). In Encyclopaedia Britannica. Retrieved from http://0-academic.eb.com.aupac.lib.athabascau.ca/EBchecked/topic/330989/Emanuel-Lasker.

[113] “Prima Facie” means “at first appearance.”

[114] Please see United Kingdom. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/place/United-Kingdom.

[115] Please see Carlsen, M. (2015). About. Retrieved from http://magnuscarlsen.com/about.

[116] Please see Garry Kasparov. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Garry-Kasparov.

[117] Please see So, W. (2015). Wesley So. Retrieved from http://wesleyso.com/.

[118] Please see Giri, A. (2015). Anish Giri. Retrieved from http://anishgiri.nl/.

[119] Please see Nakamura, H. (2015). Hikaru Nakamura. Retrieved from http://hikarunakamura.com/.

[120] Please see Caruano, F. (2015). Fabiano Caruano. Retrieved from http://www.caruanachess.com/.

[121] At the time of publication, Magnus Carlsen is 24 years old.

[122] Please see Timur. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Timur.

[123] Please see Mongol. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/Mongol.

[124] Please see Tamburlaine the Great. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/Tamburlaine-the-Great.

[125] Please see In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. (2015). Dr. Manahel Thabet. Retrieved from http://in-sightjournal.com/in-sight-people/.

[126] Please see World Genius Directory. (2015). Dr. Manahel Thabet. Retrieved from http://www.psiq.org/world_genius_directory_awards/goty2013manahelthabet.pdf.

[127] In The Gifted Academy About: Principals… (2015), it, in full, states:

“Dr Manahel Thabet is ranked among the 30 Smartest people alive by SuperScholar and Brain of the Year Award Winner 2015-2016. In 2014 she was selected the AVICENNA award Laureate, as a successor to Professor Tony Buzan, given every year to those who present best practice in science , connecting East with West through science and knowledge. She also represents The Brain Trust Foundation as President of the MENA region, with one objective, which is to unlock and deploy the vast capacity of the human brain.

She is a PhD holder; Youngest winner of Woman of the Year 2000 from Woman Federation for World Peace. In 2013 Dr. Thabet won Genius of the Year 2013 by the World Genius Directory representing ASIA.

She is the President of WIQF (World IQ Foundation), the High IQ society and Vice President of ‘WIN’ (World Intelligence Network), with more than 60,000 high IQ members from all over the world; in 2012 Dr. Thabet was the Chairperson of the Scientific Comittee, Recommendation Commitee and Senior Advisor to the International Asia Pacific Giftedness Conference held in Dubai – UAE hosted by Hamdan Bin Rashis Awards for Distinguished Academic Performance. The conference hosted specialists from 42 countries, 320 papers and more than 2000 participants in the field of Talent and Gifted Education.

Dr. Thabet obtained the “Excellence of Global International Environmental and Humanitarian Award” given for outstanding efforts in undertaking environmental and humanitarian support. Dr. Thabet is also the winner of Middle East Achievement Awards in Science and was ranked among the 100 most powerful Women in the Middle East and most powerful 500 Arabs in the World by Arabian Business. Dr. Thabet is a Royal Grand Cross Officer of the White Swan Companionate and a Fellow of the Royal Society of Medicine in London, UK.”

Please see The Gifted Academy. (2015). About: Principals…. Retrieved from http://www.thegiftedacademy.com/about.

[128] Please see Thabet, M. (2015). Smart Tips Consultants. Retrieved from http://drmanahel.com/#about-us.

[129] Please see WIQF. (2015). WIQF. Retrieved from http://wiqf.org/.

[130] Please see shogi. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/shogi.

 

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. In-Depth with Count & Grand Master Raymond Dennis Keene, O.B.E. (Part One) [Online].April 2018; 16(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/keene-one.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, April 15). In-Depth with Count & Grand Master Raymond Dennis Keene, O.B.E. (Part One). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/keene-one.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. In-Depth with Count & Grand Master Raymond Dennis Keene, O.B.E. (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A, April. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/keene-one>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “In-Depth with Count & Grand Master Raymond Dennis Keene, O.B.E. (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/keene-one.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “In-Depth with Count & Grand Master Raymond Dennis Keene, O.B.E. (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A (April 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/keene-one.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘In-Depth with Count & Grand Master Raymond Dennis Keene, O.B.E. (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 16.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/keene-one>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘In-Depth with Count & Grand Master Raymond Dennis Keene, O.B.E. (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 16.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/keene-one.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “In-Depth with Count & Grand Master Raymond Dennis Keene, O.B.E. (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 16.A (2018):April. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/keene-one>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. In-Depth with Count & Grand Master Raymond Dennis Keene, O.B.E. (Part One) [Internet]. (2018, April; 16(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/keene-one.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2018-04-08

Interview with Michael McDonald: Executive Director, Canadian Alliance of Student Associations

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 16.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Twelve)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: April 8, 2018

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,584

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

An interview with Michael McDonald, Executive Director of the Canadian Alliance of Student Associations (CASA). CASA represents more than 250,000 post-secondary or tertiary level undergraduate students across Canada. It is the second largest organization of its kind in Canada. McDonald discusses: the bigger budget items to focus on; medium budget items of note; the nuanced, small line items of note within the budget; closing the education gap for Indigenous and non-Indigenous students; things more or less important to post-secondary students incorporated into the budget; provisions for students entering into trades and other areas; data or outcomes for funding relevant to the prevention of sexual violence; provisions for the Quebec Student Union; different emphases for different student collectives; and provisions for student mental health.

Keywords: budget, Canadian Alliance of Student Associations, CASA, Michael McDonald, students.

Interview with Michael McDonald: Executive Director, Canadian Alliance of Student Associations[1],[2],[3]

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Let us begin with some of the basics of the new budget for the Canadian Alliance of Student Associations (CASA), what would be the bigger things within the budget that student unions, student representatives, and the students that are represented by CASA at large should pay attention to in this new budget?

Michael McDonald: This budget was primarily focused on research funding. The main area where dollars were allocated from the federal government to post-secondary institutions. Specifically, some of the largest investments were in the granting councils that have ever occurred.

The granting councils, and there are three of them, are the National Sciences and Engineering Council or NSERC, the Canadian Institute for Health Research or CIHR, and the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council or SSHRC.

These three bodies provide significant funding to individual researchers but also to students at the undergraduate, graduate, and post-graduate levels to conduct research. These are some of the largest and most prestigious research awards that one can win in any of these given fields.

It is estimated, at least from the budget numbers, that it is likely up to 8,000 new student applications from the undergraduate, graduate, and doctoral levels who will be able to access the grants.

2. Jacobsen: What are some of the more medium-sized line items that should paid attention to as well?

McDonald: There is a renewed commitment to the funding for the Canada Summer Jobs program as part of the Youth Employment Strategy. This extends what was a funding commitment of 3 years in Budget 2016.

It extends it to 5 years, so an additional three years of expanded funding for the program. It also really importantly highlights the Youth Employment Strategy and the Canada Summer Jobs program in specific, should look to the Youth Employment Report on how to improve work-related learning and youth employment opportunities.

This is a report that CASA and its members submitted to a comprehensive set of recommendations. Some of the recommendations were adopted in the report. One was released back in June.

The budget is saying that this is what the program should look to when it is modernizing. It is a positive sign. We are looking forward to the future on how that will be implemented. Also, we are looking at specific funding that will impact student unions.

There is now $5.5. million dedicated by the federal government to the Status of Women Canada to created a working group to be able to tackle sexual violence on campuses. This material, specifically, is something that CASA’s Chair and a variety of other CASA members have spoken to the Status of Women committee about.

It is the first set of investments that we have seen from the federal government for this, to coordinate across the country and to share best practices. This was a good first start for the federal government.

They did institute some particularly strong language around what steps the federal government might take when institutions do not adopt best practices. They have said in the budget that the Canadian government may consider withdrawing funds.

This strong language is something we are happy to see. We are concerned what mechanisms or vehicles they are considering. We are waiting to see how this will be implemented before we comment on it further.

3. Jacobsen: As per the logical progression of the first three questions, what are some of the more nuanced, small line items within the budget that may be noteworthy?

McDonald: Initially, some of the other stuff that is important to highlight. There was a $10 billion funding allotment to the Post-Secondary Student Support program, which is the primary mechanism First Nations and Inuit students receive funding from the federal government for post-secondary education.

This $10 million allotment was to allow for Metis students to access the program. This expanded, specifically, access there. You also saw something like the $27 million over 5 years to support educational and labour market linkage data.

This is supposed to be able to help those entering post-secondary and in post-secondary learn about information about careers and sector outcomes. This is something that helps with job prospects and what jobs are connected to outcomes.

It provides more of the information and makes it more easily accessible and easily comprehensible.

4. Jacobsen: If you look at a national conversation around Indigenous – or First Nations, Inuit, and Metis – students, graduate and undergraduate but particularly for this conversation undergraduate, there are efforts to close the education gap, as it’s called.

For instance, the former prime minister Paul Martin has the Martin Family Initiative that has an emphasis on the health, wellbeing, and education outcomes of Indigenous youth in particular.

What are some parts of the budget, and you have noted some, devoted to working to close that gap through additional funding for Indigenous students in Canada?

McDonald: So, beyond the funding for the Metis funding announced in this year’s budget, last year, the government invested $90 million over 2 years, so $45 million this year and $45 million next year into the Post-Secondary Student Support program to provide additional support for Indigenous learners who would be accessing the program.

This is not thought to be enough to cover the demand for the program. Initially, it was implemented in 1997. it had a capped growth, like all services in Indigenous Affairs, of 2%.

While education inflation, so the costs of education, is greater than 2% each year, and on top of that, you also saw the Indigenous population who was capable of accessing funding increase larger than 2% every year.

This has resulted in a gap, where a significant number of eligible students who can attend post-secondary. They have been accepted, but have not been able to access it. The federal government is engaged in a review of this program.

This funding was designed to be short term. There are strong indications over the next year. There will be significant alterations to the program in how it provides funding to students and bands in general.

This is something that will see significant changes in next year’s budget. It is something the government has pledged to address. I know stakeholders outside the government are waiting for them to institute the systemic reforms that they made commitments to.

It is one that we are still waiting on.

5. Jacobsen: In terms of the scaling, though I do not recall off the top but do remember being a part of this, what are the sliding scale of things that are a part of this? How are those incorporated into this new budget?

Things more important get more focus and funding. Things less important to students get less focus and funding.

McDonald: From an advocacy side, when engaging with the government, we have seen significant investments in something like the Canada Student Loans Program over the last few years, which is the primary vehicle where students receive funding from the government.

In 2016 and 2017, there were significant investments either to expand the number of individuals eligible or the amounts of the grants that they would be able to receive. This process is one that this year did not see.

There was not additional funding to the Canada Student Loans program, even though CASA asked for additional funding for students with disabilities because they have not received additional funding in the last couple of years.

We acknowledge the federal government has been contributing significant finances to this field after the last little bit. Our members will go back to the Hill next year, likely, and ask the government to do more where there are additional cost barriers to post-secondary and potentially in the area of repayment – where being able to make sure students who didn’t carry substantial financial debts are not punished and protected from those loans.

6. Jacobsen: What are some provisions for students entering into areas that the country needs more and more as time moves forward such as trades?

McDonald: This is a complicated discussion. One of the good things in the budget that was also identified was that the community skills training, the skills program, is run out and provided funding for research initiatives held at colleges and polytechnics.

We did receive additional funding for five years there. This helps operate certain programs across the country that gives opportunities to students and businesses to work in an environment that allows to students to work on projects that are market-focused.

It allows them to get those skills from an employer while in study, and all the while leading in something that is in economic demand. When it comes to gaps in potential demand across the country, we do highlight and want to emphasize student choice and student choice in what field they want to enter into.

We advocate on assistance that covers everyone. No matter if you go to college, university, or a trades school, you deserve assistance to complete your studies. Anybody should have access if they are academically qualified to any program.

When it comes to the ideas behind potential gaps, very often, some of these will be self-correcting. A good example of this has been recently with – though the data is a bit more complicated than this – increased enrollment in the STEM fields: science, technology, engineering, and mathematics.

It is sometimes in high demand fields. Significant numbers of students are entering into those fields. It has been at a decrease in other departments. Over time, what is outcome data does establish that we have not necessarily seen a large number of students that entered a field and then that was not proving to be lucrative for them, that means our best tracking data that we still have, which is any tax-linkage data out of somebody like professor Ross Finney.

The data ends up indicating students do quite well on average, whether they enter the arts, humanities, social sciences, sciences, and so on. We are somewhat hesitant as an organization to ever jump onto a “well we’re missing this right now.”

The thing about the educational system is that it has a delayed response to these things. if we say that we are missing out on a specific profession or field, those students may not get out of the post-secondary system for the next 2, 4, or 5 years.

They might be entering into a completely different labour market. The idea that we think is a better responder on what the needs of the students is what reflects their interests, the areas that they want to get into, and to build the jobs that they want in the future because they will be key components in the future for that as well.

7. Jacobsen: I want to touch on the sexual violence prevention on campuses within Canada for those represented by CASA. What have been, if there are, data or outcomes of similar measures that CASA will be funding other campuses in terms of the prevention of sexual violence in order to reduce the rate of sexual violence on campus, as this is a concern throughout the country?

McDonald: CASA will engage with the government to be able to provide those data points. We have been in consultation with Statistics Canada on the development on what will be its first reporting mechanism on the safety on campus, which includes sexual violence statistics.

One of the challenges that does exist right now is that there is not standardized data across the country. One of the challenges is also measuring the impact of initiatives taken by provincial governments and the federal government.

It is something where we lack the tracking data to see if it has been effective. We will continue to work. We are happy to see the federal government commit funding to Statistics Canada and happy to see some of the best practices are more easily shared across the country into the future.

But some of the data in Ontario where they have mandated that there will be sexual violence reporting on their campuses. It still will be available for a while.

8. Jacobsen: As well, the QSU or the Quebec Student Union and its 8 members represent about 75,000 students within CASA’s national voice now. What are some provisions within the budget that differ from other sectors of that budget that at for the QSU student collective?

McDonald: CASA and the QSU both advocate quite actively on the issue of fundamental sciences and on research funding in the country. Both student groups, that is French and English in the country, saw the importance in the ability to bring forth new dollars for researcher led research across the country, investigator led research

This is the important stuff. It crosses the country. Students from the East Coast to Quebec, to Ontario, to Manitoba, to Saskatchewan, to Alberta, to British Columbia, and the territories, all think it is important that the funding is available in an active way and in an accessible way for Canadian researchers and especially early career researchers as they are integral to the operations towards building an innovative economy.

These are the projects that will be turning into both the social science questions that we will be able to more tackle more comprehensively that we encounter with sexual violence on campus. The people who will be involved in significant new discoveries in those lucrative fields that a modern economy so requires.

So, both groups commit together to the benefit of all students. Luckily, in this situation, that benefit was spread pretty equally across the board.

9. Jacobsen: As well, if you look at the bigger picture of student association collectives, CASA being one. Canadian Federation of Students being the biggest. Then a bunch of smaller ones. Some defunct and some extant.

What are some different emphases that they have that differ from some of the ones that CASA has?

McDonald: As an example, we focus predominantly on our members and our members’ objectives. I think one of the positive things across the country is that student groups at the provincial level, the federal level, care deeply about making sure the experience of being a student is improved.

They care fundamentally about improving the lives of students on a day-to-day experience. How that is accomplished is different at times and on what is brought forward to the government on a given day may change, I do think – and this is a positive story – that they are all working on the idea that we can make the lives of all people pursuing study better.

That they can pursue higher quality education and can do so in ways that they don’t get burdened by long-term debts and respects the diversity of the students and is responsive to that diversity as well.

10. Jacobsen: Another concern is student mental health. So, an expansion of provisions for counselling services for students, whether it is call-ins or face-to-face, for the better wellbeing of students on campus. 

Are there any lines within the budget devoted to this?

McDonald: The federal government has very actively acknowledged the importance of mental health, but did not include anything specifically campus related. In part, that was because of the recent health accord with the provinces.

It did include mental health funding for each government. Those agreements did emphasize the mental health across the country. The federal government does have some tools to help engage in a healthy conversation.

However, this is the purview of the provincial governments. So far, from an administration of services, they link pretty directly and fed to their provincial partners. That said,  there are definitely areas around being able to understand the challenges faced by those who are experiencing mental health issues.

There probably needs to be better federal policy. That is being able to acknowledge clearly the real life situations of people who may be experiencing a mental health challenge and being able to reflect that in student loans policy.

That would be being able to take greater periods of time away from your student loans, which may be a break in study but would not punish a student by immediately forcing them into repayment.

Looking through experiences like this is something the federal government needs to adapt more actively on, beyond that, it is also making sure that the provinces have the funding necessary to support initiatives on campuses and support initiatives where the demand is.

That is where the real key components  of answering mental health questions in a post-secondary environment is that this is where students are first experiencing these challenges and are first experiencing the challenges that may stay with them for some years, and being able to address these at this time makes it more likely that they will be more likely to complete their studies, be more likely to enter the job market, and more likely to be able to do so in a comfortable and in a healthy way.

11. Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Michael.

References

  1. Academica Group. (2017, July 20). Students react to YorkU, Access Copyright decision. Retrieved from https://www.academica.ca/top-ten/students-react%C2%A0-yorku-access-copyright-decision.
  2. Beyleveldt, V. (2017, September 5). Lobbying efforts to continue through membership with the Canadian Alliance of Student Associations. Retrieved from http://www.capilanocourier.com/2017/09/05/csu-federal-representation/.
  3. CASA. (2018, February 23). Students Want to Make Sure No One is Left Without the Chance to Gain a Post-Secondary Education. Retrieved from https://www.voicemagazine.org/2018/02/23/students-want-to-make-sure-no-one-is-left-without-the-chance-to-gain-a-post-secondary-education/.
  4. Cook, D. (2017, March 19). Student groups want Liberals to honour $50M promise to Indigenous Canadians. Retrieved from https://ipolitics.ca/2017/03/19/student-groups-want-liberals-to-honour-50m-promise-to-indigenous-canadians/.
  5. Davidson, P. & McDonald, M. (2017, June 21). Fair dealing is vital to meeting students’ learning needs. Retrieved from https://www.univcan.ca/media-room/media-releases/fair-dealing-vital-meeting-students-learning-needs/.
  6. Desjardins, L. (2016, April 19). Youth vote played a big role in election win: poll. Retrieved from http://www.rcinet.ca/en/2016/04/19/youth-vote-played-a-big-role-in-election-win-poll/.
  7. Dubé, J. (2016, November 1). THE ALTERNATIVES TO CFS: HOW CASA AND OUSA MEASURE UP. Retrieved from https://theeyeopener.com/2016/11/the-alternatives-to-cfs-how-casa-and-ousa-measure-up/.
  8. Hyshka, A. (2017, December 20). CASA TACKLES PROBLEMS FELT BY CANADIAN UNIVERSITY STUDENTS DURING ADVOCACY WEEK. Retrieved from http://runnermag.ca/2017/12/casa-tackles-problems-felt-by-canadian-university-students-during-advocacy-week/.
  9. Jacobsen, S. (2017, July 21). Mi CASA es su CASA. Retrieved from https://www.voicemagazine.org/2017/07/21/mi-casa-es-su-casa/.
  10. Nation Talk. (2017, December 11). CASA: Government Committee Recommends Addressing Student Mental Health and Textbook Costs. Retrieved from http://nationtalk.ca/story/casa-government-committee-recommends-addressing-student-mental-health-and-textbook-costs.
  11. Pomerleau, M. (2018, February 6). CASA URGES CANADA TO REMOVE FINANCIAL BARRIERS FOR STUDENTS WITH ISSUES OF MENTAL HEALTH. Retrieved from http://runnermag.ca/2018/02/casa-urges-canada-to-remove-financial-barriers-for-students-with-issues-of-mental-health/.
  12. Press, J. (2016, April 19). Youth vote a ‘new and growing force’ in Canada: Study. Retrieved from http://www.metronews.ca/news/canada/2016/04/19/new-report-says-half-of-young-voters-cast-ballots-in-2015-election.html.
  13. Sawden, E. (2018, January 25). http://thebruns.ca/2018/01/25/unb-counselling-services-how-are-we-stacking-up/. Retrieved from http://thebruns.ca/2018/01/25/unb-counselling-services-how-are-we-stacking-up/.
  14. Zerehi, S.S. (2014, January 29). DSU councillors question value of student advocacy groups. Retrieved from http://dalgazette.com/news/campus/dsu-councillors-question-value-of-student-advocacy-groups/.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Executive Director, Canadian Alliance of Student Associations.

[2] Individual Publication Date: April 8, 2018 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mcdonald; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2018 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] DEC, Heritage College; Bachelors Degree, Political Studies, Bishop’s University; Masters Degree, International Environmental Law, Macquarie University.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Interview with Michael McDonald: Executive Director, Canadian Alliance of Student Associations [Online].April 2018; 16(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mcdonald.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, April 8). Interview with Michael McDonald: Executive Director, Canadian Alliance of Student Associations. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mcdonald.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Interview with Michael McDonald: Executive Director, Canadian Alliance of Student Associations. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A, April. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mcdonald>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “Interview with Michael McDonald: Executive Director, Canadian Alliance of Student Associations.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mcdonald.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Interview with Michael McDonald: Executive Director, Canadian Alliance of Student Associations.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A (April 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mcdonald.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Interview with Michael McDonald: Executive Director, Canadian Alliance of Student Associations‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 16.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mcdonald>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Interview with Michael McDonald: Executive Director, Canadian Alliance of Student Associations‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 16.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mcdonald.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Interview with Michael McDonald: Executive Director, Canadian Alliance of Student Associations.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 16.A (2018):April. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mcdonald>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Interview with Michael McDonald: Executive Director, Canadian Alliance of Student Associations [Internet]. (2018, April; 16(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mcdonald.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2018-04-01

A Conversation with Professor Rick Mehta on Defamation, Censorship, and Honest Discussions (Part Two)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 16.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Twelve)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: April 1, 2018

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,464

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

An interview with Professor Rick Mehta. He discusses: terms used to defame people; being kept upright contrasted to being upright; means used to silence some speakers; protections of some viewpoints and not others; and some students lacking protections and fearing speaking out.

Keywords: FIRE, Heterodox Academy, psychology, Rick Mehta, Society for Academic Freedom and Scholarship.

A Conversation with Professor Rick Mehta on Defamation, Censorship, and Honest Discussions (Part Two)[1],[2],[3]

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: I liked the term, the broader phenomena, not only within the Left/Liberal spectrum, as far as I have seen so personal view, which is that they are terms to defame to dismiss.

You label someone a “fascist,” “Marxist,” “Men’s Rights Activist,” “feminist”; once you label someone that. In your own mind, it amounts to a low fidelity cognitive replacement in place of reasoning, of reason.

Rick Mehta: Oh, definitely.

Jacobsen: That way, you can dismiss them. My fear is that this might become such a large phenomenon that it even becomes accepted in high-level intellectual circles. People writing some of the most influential columns in the country, which seems like a risk to really lower the level of intellectual discourse.

Where, at times, many of the most intellectually astute people are reading them and people that are influenced by those people then follow their brand of that in a way, but it gets diluted in quality.

That could be a risk in terms of how people talk with one another in the public. So, if you want to know the general content of the way a leader composes themselves, what are their followers doing?

Of course, the leader is not responsible for what the followers are doing, but, in many cases, the followers are taking on a style and tone from that leader.

Mehta: Yes, I think we are approaching a tipping point. What I showed in my introductory psychology class, the way I did it was “here is the context of intelligence in the past, so let us look at intelligence in the present.”

I was able to show the graph of the Heterodox Academy, where the universities have shifted quite dramatically to the Left. I found a Business Week article. Interestingly, we see the Left bias in two other places: mainstream media and Hollywood entertainment.

All of them are imploding right now. It is an absolute disaster. Those are the three areas where we have Left-leaning et cetera. The distribution for the political leanings for all these other lines of work are completely different.

So, I think there is this fragmentation going on and I think people are clueing on that there is this major disconnect with what I see on my television or CNN website, or whatever, even with video games now.

They are a heavy emphasis on social justice. But people are not wanting to buy them. So, their sales are going down. Even the comic books, and Star Wars too. Fans usually love those ones. But on Rotten Tomatoes, only, I think, 50% of people liked it [the latest Star Wars movie], but it got a high ranking by the critics.

So, there is a fragmentation, where it is not going with the public. I think the Pew Center (in the US) found that public support for the higher education is starting to become politicized where the Democrats are loving it, but the Republicans are not – which is unprecedented.

It has never happened before, if I understand it correctly. I think I saw a tweet earlier this week that companies are reluctant to hire women because of the overreach of the Me Too movement. There are problems starting to happen now.

I think the 2018/19 years are going to be pivotal years.

2. Jacobsen: When I look at some of the bastions of this, I think about the one you mentioned: Hollywood. Let us take the big bargaining chip that Hollywood takes with the public in some of its most self-aggrandizing moments…

Mehta: [Laughing].

Jacobsen: …such as award ceremonies, they, for years, have mentioned themselves, not across the board but in general as a general phenomenon, as moral exemplars, as the height of virtue in the public sphere.

Maybe for some, that is the case. Perhaps, they are donating copious quantities of money investing in public good for which they deserve praise, but, as a general phenomenon, if I look at the recent and ongoing cases of sexual misconduct allegations coming out, then the same people coming out later saying, “That we shouldn’t allow this to happen. Look at us calling out this terrible behaviour,” and so on.

I think about it. If they want to be considered legitimate persons or institutions, you should be upright rather than be kept upright. Somehow, cleverly, the public relations of that environment made it such that it is a win-win for them.

So, if you take the case of giving these signifiers of ethical purity in awards ceremonies, you look good. You are fighting the moral fight. You are fighting the good fight.

But then you get called out as an institution with the highest-ranking people and most famous people in the industry for sexual misconduct by the outside of the institution, then the institution has the gall to then come out and say, “Look at us now calling out all of this behaviour.”

They were not right, to begin with. They were kept upright. I do not think that that then makes it morally legitimate as a position or a set of actions that are ongoing.

Mehta: Yes, it is like the metronome. We went from one side and then went to the exact opposite side, so we went one kind of dysfunction to another. No one can be morally virtuous 100% of the time.

The way I see it. People give money to people who are poor. I like to think that is something that we would do out of the kindness of our hearts rather than “I have done this and now I must get the world to praise me for it.”

They likely get tax write-offs for it as well. I do not think the public really buys that. It is politically correct to state that in a public setting, but I think that is partly what has happened. It is the double-standard to it.

So, you went from not having that much credibility to having even worse credibility. It will be interesting to what happens with the movies and what will sell and so on. It is hard to know for sure.

I anticipate, though, that people are getting turned off by a lot of what is being generated from the fields that are dominated by people with one perspective because it was as bad if you think many years back where things were primarily on the Right.

That had its own problems as well. Hopefully, it will get some form of tipping point, where we can swing towards the center and get to the center point and maybe work our way from there rather than have the pendulum swinging back and forth.

That is always going to be counterproductive in one group’s favour over another.

3. Jacobsen: I want to focus on some of the other academic issues now. This is happening more in the United States than in Canada, but it has happened in Canada. Where speakers will be invited and then that platform will be taken away from them, I believe this is called de-platforming.

Other times, the student activists will have a technique of simply bringing in a crowd into an auditorium or a conference center, or something like this, and then yelling the speaker down so the speaker cannot be heard.

Now, I know FIRE (Foundation Individual Rights in Education) is an organization in the United States, which has tracked some of these from 2000-2014, in the United States at least – where there are about 2,600 universities.

There are about 100, public-private combined, in Canada. In raw numbers, it will not happen as much in Canada. Per capita, it may happen at some parity. With that as a background, I wanted to get your thoughts on the phenomena of de-platforming in some campus censorship.

In other words, what do you think is its prevalence? How bad do you think it is? And so on.

Mehta: It is hard for me to answer that question because, unlike the States, we do not have the equivalent of FIRE. We have the Society for Academic Freedom and Scholarship. I will admit that I am a member. So, that will bias me in terms of saying that that they do good work.

I do have to be honest and open about that. I am also a member of the Heterodox Academy in terms of viewpoint diversity. So, full disclosure is important. However, we have instances of what happened at Wilfred Laurier when they wanted to invite Daniel Robitaille.

In my talk, I did document some events that had happened within the last year in Canada. But there is another technique that used as well. It is not called no-platforming. It is “let us just make sure we can control the messaging.”

What happened at Acadia, I think it was last year? It was Marie Henein who was giving a talk about Bishop’s. It was broadcast through a livestream to the other Maple League universities: Acadia, Saint Francis Xavier University, Bishop’s, and Mount Allison.

Anyway, we had the live stream on Acadia on a Friday night. In terms of the publicity, it was sent as an attachment on the emails. You look at the emails. It would be a big piece of paper, like this, then the name would be this big.

That is what the posters look like when they are on campus. The most discrete kind of publicity for that talk. Then, on top of that, the talk was followed by a panel chaired by a women and gender’s study professor and the panel were people pretty much from our union, and people involved in the gender study program.

It was all people who were going to think the same way and have it in a hush tone because “oh, we cannot talk about this Marie Henein because she had defended Jian Ghomeshi and there might be people who are sensitive.”

It was the strangest type of publicity for a talk. It was “let us make sure there was a debrief.” If I did a panel, I would invite someone like Christie Blatchford [Laughing], right? Someone who covered that from a different angle.

It was very like “these are children and we have to protect them.” I found that rather interesting.

4. Jacobsen: I find that unfair. I see that as one viewpoint set protections. That seems unfair and against the spirit of an academic environment. Can you recall another case? For instance, based on your speech on free speech in universities.

Mehta: I found that interesting in terms of the publicity because the student newspaper was the one hosting me for that, but they just kept calling it a panel or a discussion. They did not put my name to it or say what it was about.

Even when I said, “You have rather misleading and imprecise posters.” That was summarily discounted. It did not stop the interest. I had somewhere between 45 and 50 people in the room and another 250 people who listened to the live stream.

I think a lot of people there were surprised. I think they did not know what to expect. I guess knowing that my audience was going to be towards the Left-leaning side. I think that helped.

I used that information to frame how I would get the message because I wanted to win them over. Then the question and answer period, only two or three faculty members showed up – and solely for the purpose of attacking me.

The students were open for the most part. It is the small groups on the campus that are the most vocal. For instance, when I brought up the wage gap, only a few got upset and irate. The others were wondering what was going on.

Jacobsen: These are the 1-in-50s. These are the Mensa level of obnoxiousness [Laughing].

Mehta: Yes.

Jacobsen: I want to focus on students now. So, if a student is coming into an environment where they make an argument, then they receive some epithet or are given an ad hominem attack to shut them up. They may have fewer means through which to protect themselves.

For example, if a European-Canadian student in the university environment takes something like the Hopi notion of not truly owning the land but caring for the land in conversation with someone of First Nations or Cree descent, the young First Nations student in conversation may have different views but given the campus culture simply calls the European-Canadian “racist.”

It stops conversations.

Mehta: If you are doing a study in which you’re comparing Canadians to South Africans, then it is a cross-cultural study. But if we do that within the Canadian or American context, then it suddenly becomes a study of race differences. I said, “Why don’t we talk about these as cross-cultural differences?”

If we talk about across countries, it is a cultural difference; but if we talk about in a country, then it becomes about race. What I think is that we are talking about cultural differences within Canada or the United States, we are talking about cultures clashing.

Then we can then have these honest and difficult discussions. Such as, why are poverty rates higher or lower among some groups and not others? If we talk about that as a cultural difference, then we can make some headway.

5. Jacobsen: Do some students, though, not have protections against the early parts of this question? Where the discussion isn’t mainstream in that way, in other words, the headway has not been made and the students may be afraid to speak out.

Mehta: Yes, what I was talking about there was not individuals but groups, it is the average. This is what we’re seeing. That is the way I introduced heritability of race. It is a population index. It means nothing.

What we need to do is test the individual and see where they lie, that is what we do with IQ. It is returning to that frame of reference. It is not the individuals, but the group differences. So, we see how we can shift that group difference, so that rates of being arrested or whatnot.

Why is it in this group that happens to have a label in it? It is trying to undo years of how we have been framing that debate. I think this is the proactive interference at work. It is very basic first-year psychology principle.

We can talk about that and compared to swimming correctly. I learned to swim with unilateral breathing. It is hard to do bilateral breathing. Everyone gets that. If we put that in the context of race, suddenly, it is culture now.

The defenses go up. It is trying to unlearn a bad habit that we have had ingrained in us for God knows how long, right?

6. Jacobsen: Thank you for your time, professor Mehta.

Mehta: Yes, my pleasure, I hope that was helpful.

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Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Professor, Psychology, Acadia University.

[2] Individual Publication Date: April 1, 2018 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mehta-2; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2018 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] B.Sc. (Honours), University of Toronto; M.Sc., McGill University; Ph.D., McGill University.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. A Conversation with Professor Rick Mehta on Defamation, Censorship, and Honest Discussions (Part Two) [Online].April 2018; 16(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mehta-2.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, April 1). A Conversation with Professor Rick Mehta on Defamation, Censorship, and Honest Discussions (Part Two). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mehta-2.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. A Conversation with Professor Rick Mehta on Defamation, Censorship, and Honest Discussions (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A, April. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mehta-2>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “A Conversation with Professor Rick Mehta on Defamation, Censorship, and Honest Discussions (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mehta-2.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “A Conversation with Professor Rick Mehta on Defamation, Censorship, and Honest Discussions (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A (April 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mehta-2.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘A Conversation with Professor Rick Mehta on Defamation, Censorship, and Honest Discussions (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 16.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mehta-2>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘A Conversation with Professor Rick Mehta on Defamation, Censorship, and Honest Discussions (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 16.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mehta-2.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “A Conversation with Professor Rick Mehta on Defamation, Censorship, and Honest Discussions (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 16.A (2018):April. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mehta-2>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. A Conversation with Professor Rick Mehta on Defamation, Censorship, and Honest Discussions (Part Two) [Internet]. (2018, April; 16(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mehta-2.

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2018-03-22

A Conversation with Professor Rick Mehta on Self-Discovery, View Changes, and Conveyed Messages (Part One)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 16.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Twelve)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: March 22, 2018

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 4,951

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

An interview with Professor Rick Mehta. He discusses: geographic, cultural, and family background; discovering himself; main research findings from the doctoral thesis; major trends in the way we look at the way human beings process information; reflections on Mehta’s transition from militant atheism to new views; problems with slant in social and political views and the influences on findings and interpretations; Sternberg’s Triarchic Theory of Intelligence and Howard Gardner’s Multiple Intelligences, the work of Anthony Greenwald and Mahzarin Banaji with the IAT, general intelligence, and conscientiousness linked to discussion on biology; values to convey in a first-year class; fragmentation of epistemology in academic disciplines; inavertently stepping into controversy; amelioration of the fragmentation in psychology; and his hoped-for message for the next generations conveyed in classes.

Keywords: controversy, epistemology, free speech, militant atheism, psychology, research, Rick Mehta.

A Conversation with Professor Rick Mehta on Self-Discovery, View Changes, and Conveyed Messages (Part One)[1],[2],[3]

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What was geography, culture, and family life – heritage – and so on?

Professor Rick Mehta: My parents came to Canada in 1967. They started from India and went to Coventry, England, then from Coventry, England came to Canada in 1967. I was born in 1970

It was one month before the October Crisis. I was living in Lasalle at the time. It was a turbulent time because this was, as I said, around the time of the October Crisis and the times leading up to the Referendum of 1980.

There was tension between the English and French. With our family being East Indian, we were viewed as enemies by both sides. We were not that liked at that time. There was racism that I experienced during that time.

After the referendum, I found things got better in Canada. I never had any regrets about living in Canada. I have adopted the Western values as part of who I am. That is the cultural part.

Religion, my parents are Hindu. I have never been religious. I may be a bit spiritual, maybe, but not outright religious. I was a militant atheist for a bit. But then I noticed when I went online that many of the militant atheists were probably more intolerant of the people they were criticizing.

I gave that up. I am open to other people’s views. If we are connected to each other somehow, that’s good enough. For language, I had trouble learning multiple languages when I was in elementary school.

For better or worse, my parents decided to speak only English at home. The downside is we didn’t know the research on language. It shows that children might struggle at first if they are learning multiple languages.

But they will excel at all three later in life. If my parents had later known that, my parents would have taken a different tactic. They did the best with what they knew at the time.

I guess having grown up around that time with the animosity between the English and French. I developed a closed-minded attitude, “Why do I have to learn French when they can just learn English?”

In retrospect, I wish I had gotten rid of that attitude and had been more open-minded. Unfortunately, I am a unilingual Anglophone with some very basic working knowledge of French, so I can get by in Montreal.

2. Jacobsen: I want to get into some of your earlier educational experiences. When it came to university, did you know what you wanted to do, or did you need a little bit of time to, as they say, discover yourself?

Mehta: A little bit of time, in terms of how I evolved over time, it changed. In my first year at the undergraduate level, I discovered that I liked the psychology courses. But I was not particularly keen on some areas like the personality of the person who taught some courses. They did not seem to have one.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Mehta: [Laughing] There were certain courses like that that I did not want to take. Biology, there was a plants course. I did not like it. It was a required course [Laughing]. At the time, there was a new program opening in neuroscience that was being offered at the satellite campuses at the University of Toronto.

It was a way of getting people to go to the Scarborough and Erindale campuses. So, I was living in Scarborough at the time. It seemed like the best degree at the time. It was a way to get the best of psychology and the best of biology and avoid certain courses that I did not want to take [Laughing].

3. Jacobsen: [Laughing] Eventually, you did earn up to the highest level that we do have, which is Ph.D. What was the main research question in the doctoral thesis? What was the finding? Or what were the findings?

Mehta: Basically, the Master’s degree was in psychopharmacology and involved research with rats. I found it very limiting and narrow because I could not see the connection between the rat models and addiction. I probably could have done a better job in my own research.

Some were my own shortcoming at the time, too. But also working with the animals and the way everyone is treating the animals as if they are commodities, it never felt right to me on that front.

I was also developing allergies to the rats. I think at least 60% if not more of people who work with rodents develop allergies that are severe. I switched to human cognition for my Ph.D.

I was trying to look at how people learn correlations or associations between events, so that one event magically predicts another. That is the information we use to detect relationships with our world and predict what will happen next.

That was what I was interested in. It was more of the basic level. I was working with different associative or mathematical models versus other more top-down models. I found those a mix that could explain how people do their reasoning.

It was the easiest way to explain those reasonings. I did that line of work. For a postdoc at the University of Winnipeg, I was doing that as my early research at Acadia University. I found that the models were getting so convoluted.

The research was so inaccessible. If I was having difficulty, how could I get my students to do that? So, I switched to decision-making to have something more broadly defined and more accessible for students to be involved in.

4. Jacobsen: When you’re dealing with human cognition and you’re looking at the research now, what have been the major trends in the research or the big changes? In other words, what new findings have changed the way we look at the way human beings process information?

Mehta: I find that the main problem of a lot of the literature is that it has become so fragmented with these small questions. Not so much in dealing with the big issues, I think probably the main frustration of being an academic is that it is very small and territorial. We are all working in these small realms.

That is my dissatisfaction with that. So, there are these small little sub-fields. In academia in general, though, the part that has me worried is all these fields with identity because all they do is look at themselves and see how oppressed they are.

I do not see where there is the human condition. Let’s take a degree like Fat Studies, how much can you really learn from a degree where you learn that “I’m fat and if there are exercise programs that they are somehow victimizing me by telling me to change my diet”?

It seems like the fields are getting much more fragmented. Some more than others. Since I am interested in decision-making, with one honors student, we are interested in looking at the perception of singles vs. couples and so on.

One big name in the field, Bella DePaulo. Her earlier books were on how single people are stigmatized and that maybe they should get some respect, but her latest book for the public is about how singles are badass

That does not sit with me because that is not a message that I want to convey to people. That we are superior in any way. We are different and should deserve the same level of dignity as others. Some of the messages in these research areas to do with identity worry me.

5. Jacobsen: I reflect on the minor comment stated about early life for you in relation to the term in the TED Talk by Richard Dawkins in that period where you were a militant atheist.

You noted the unpleasant convictions and bigotry at times coming from that sector of some of the atheist, of the New Atheist, population as well as this thing that you just said.

It is not arguing for equality of singlehood. It is arguing for the superiority of it. It is not arguing for, in the former case, an equality of atheism with general society. It is arguing for superiority in a sense.

I notice that one consistent thread.

Mehta: Yes, I notice that with even with some of the cognition. They will design these studies and the result of it shows that conservatives are somehow morally inferior or something like that compared to liberals.

Of course, if it is all run by liberals, it sounds like what we did in the past to use science to justify our own bigotry. For a little while, I was a like that, except I caught myself. I have tried to realign my thinking to how we can have different ways of respecting each other with different ways of things in terms of how we view the world.

I think not having tied an emotion to my way of thinking has made a world of difference in terms of being open to new ideas and new perspectives.

6. Jacobsen: As you know the research better than I do, with the massive slant in social and political views, especially in psychology, more towards liberal than conservative, though I don’t know how they defined liberal and conservative in the research, the research will slant within that framework of demographics.

Also, not only the questions are asked, but the findings that are found and the interpretations that are given to them, how big of a problem does this present in psychology?

Mehta: I would say it is quite major. I am teaching the first-year psychology. I haven’t taught the second half in over 10 years. You would think after all this time that some of the stuff in the textbook would change, but it hasn’t.

We still have the Sternberg Multiple Intelligences. The whole idea that we all think differently.

Jacobsen: Oh, he is Triarchic.

Mehta: Yes! All of that is still there, even though it doesn’t work. The idea that we all learn in different ways is false. The things like stereotype threat explain racial differences is still there. The Implicit Association Test (IAT) is still there.

People are saying this is an area of controversy. This is being claimed as if it is established as fact. I am looking at the second half of the textbook trying to figure out how to teach it, even though I know a bunch of it is outright false.

Even looking at family structures, it is still under the assumption that we will get married, have children, and have the nuclear family. That is not the way we are living these days. There was an article recently in Maclean’s reporting the number of mothers regretting having their children.

That is not a topic at all discussed in psychology. If you think under developmental, that would be one of the big questions, it clearly isn’t. There is clearly much missing in our field in terms of big ways that we can’t even address the society we are claiming to serve.

7. Jacobsen: Also, to clarify, you mentioned Sternberg’s Triarchic Theory of Intelligence and Howard Gardner’s Multiple Intelligences as well as the work of Anthony Greenwald and Mahzarin Banaji with the IAT.

At least in terms of general intelligence, tied to conscientiousness, especially in a knowledge economy, it is probably more predictive of life success. Let’s take intelligence, why are these two theories alongside general intelligence pushed in the first year, in that half of the textbook you mentioned?

Mehta: I think the reason they didn’t acknowledge that side is the role of biology is far stronger than we had even thought; I was shocked having taken a break from it for ten years and then looking at the latest research.

I remember going through and my jaw dropping at what I had seen. It was so different than what I had thought before. With heritability, the fact of its role seems to increase over the course of development from childhood to adolescence.

Whereas, I would think it would decrease or be a small role. It increased from .5 to .7. It goes beyond what I expected. But because I did not have a vested interest in that research area. I was able to present the information as fact and let the students think for themselves.

But if I was a social psychologist or in that line, that would be a threat to me if I was liberal and seeing the world as being a social construct. That explains the racial disparities.

Because I was able to do it neutrally, I thought, “This is what the evidence is, and this is what I am going to present to my class.” When I went into the social psychology textbook and went through the explanation, none of them seemed valid.

What I ended up showing in the class was a clip from Thomas Sowell, I mean, the question that bugged me over all these years when covering the section on intelligence. Lots of groups got the short end of the stick.

They were treated quite poorly by our European settlers. But some groups have thrived where some groups haven’t. The question was “Why?” None of the explanations in the textbook seemed at all convincing.

So, looking at the economics and who we vote for, it was a shock to my students. My own initial reaction, being a left-liberal, but listening to Thomas Sowell. It is hard to attack him, which is what we do.

We discount the person. Here we are, a black person who has lived 80 years and seen the world changed through the different eras and is knowledgeable and well-spoken and has a soft, gentle demeanor, so there is nothing you can attack on a personal level.

But it was amazing to hear him. Now, I bought some of his books to put for my summer reading and try to look at that whole angle; it was a learning experience for me that I have been a voter all these years voting on economic issues, but I don’t have an idea how economics works.

That is not a good feeling [Laughing]. But, of course, it is true. You can’t know everything. What do I do now? I learn about it. How do we correct these mistakes and tell the students that “you are the next generation, and these are some of the issues that you will have to deal with”?

8. Jacobsen: What do you see as some of the values to take onboard from a class, even though it is nothing that you are forcing on them? It is a learning environment. What do they tend to take away from that first-year psychology?

Mehta: It has been interesting. In the first half, it was straightforward because it did not that go against their thinking, e.g. talking about inattentional blindness and tie it to driving. Most people are willing to accept that.

But the second half, and as I am seeing, it has a political lens to it. Given that, I think they come from a background where their teachers and elementary school teachers were liberal-left leaning.

For some, I know they became defensive, when I brought up the fact that the wage gap is false. Many got angry and upset with me when I showed the Thomas Sowell video. I saw some students walking out.

It is strange, the defensive reaction. I did talk about that the following class as a debrief. My observation was the reaction was not in line with what I was saying. From a mental health perspective, it is in line with an immune system that hasn’t been exposed to germs and then has a strong reaction.

I said that if that was happening with something I thought was innocuous, then I would be worried about their resiliency.

It is like giving the patient the bad news. I try to frame it as “here is something to think about,” especially race. It is one no one wants to touch and if it is touched then the only explanation must be environmental as opposed to biological.

9. Jacobsen: When it comes to the two forms of fragmentation of knowledge that you noted in the earlier part of the interview, the one with identity politics-oriented disciplines and the other within psychology.

This fragmentation of the epistemology that the disciplines are bringing to the fore. It breeds some issues because at least in the identity politics areas or disciplines. They will be focusing on themselves in terms of their research and citations.

So, if their focus is on themselves in terms of their research and citations, it can breed problems of new ideas coming in from the outside and the reactions to it. What are some?

Mehta: Oh, I can give you an example. It was at Acadia, last summer. It was a major announcement release that a thesis got an award. The title of the thesis was about how that person came to be in touch with the sexual identity through interpretive dance.

It was released on the Research and Graduate Studies website saying that what made this thesis so special is that dance was the focus of the thesis and not just an add-on. I read the thesis.

There could be, as a research question, some merit to it. So, I don’t want to minimize that or someone’s coming out experience, but the problem with that is that it used autoethnography.

That was the key part I forgot to mention. You read the thesis. It reads like a diary entry, where “this is my diary and I will use references to reinforce my view of the world.” This is an exercise in confirmation bias.

There is no attempt to challenge your worldview from different angles. It was “all about me.” There was no attempt to use his experience to see if this can generalize to other people. That would be an interesting question.

It is not the question, but it is the approach. It is all very insular. You come through that thesis more ingrained in your views than you were to begin with because that process is reinforced.

This was a thesis in education, a counseling degree.

Jacobsen: This doesn’t seem as rigorous as one would hope in a graduate program, frankly.

Mehta: Yes, in a discussion on Facebook, I posted about that; it was one of my public posts. It was a different context about our union about to go on strike. That discussion led to this.

I said to that student that if you don’t think a university education is a Left-wing indoctrination, then go to New Real Peer Review on Twitter and see what’s there. If you don’t think that would happen at Acadia, then look here.

Then I gave a link to the Research in Graduate Studies website. So, then afterward, the dean came to see me. He said that if someone could, in theory, say that what I was saying was minimizing the person’s coming out experience, and if that was the case, then I would be violating the university’s policy on homophobia.

He said that he recommended that I take it down. I outright refused. That became a bit of a kerfuffle.

10. Jacobsen: What would you say has been the main controversy that you inadvertently stepped into in Canada?

Mehta: [Laughing] I thought that it would be my big claim to fame because after that I tried to tweet to media outlets and whatnot. I thought I was going to have an interview. That didn’t materialize. That fizzled.

I tried attempts at saying to Acadia, “If you really want to deal with racism, then abandon the decolonization and your commitment to social justice.” I hoped that would be the big stir. That didn’t happen, even though I ended it with the hashtag: “#itsokaytobewhite.”

Still nothing, but it happened inadvertently when I least expected it, which was when Andrew Scheer, our conservative opposition leader had removed his senator Lynn Beyak from the conservative caucus.

I tweeted out to him: You claim to be for free speech on the one hand, but then you remove her from your caucus. So then, are you saying First Nations are a group that cannot be criticized anyway? Then that is a bad move for race relations.

All I had done was tweet that. I hadn’t thought much of it. That is what led to the Twitter mobbing and all of these being in the media spotlight.

11. Jacobsen: When it comes to the underlying point, if I get the tacit message, in an ethic, you do not want to be a hypocrite. You want to apply standards to yourself as you would to others.

Mehta: As humanly possible.

Jacobsen: Within the constraints of energy, time, and so on, if someone was tired and drunk [Laughing], they would act like rats on narcotics. It would be roughly the same model. It would not be running at 100% so to speak.

I want to touch on more academic issues with regards to the fragmentation of knowledge. It is a formal interview setting, but I think it is a valuable conversation – especially in the context of North American academia, Canadian academia for shorthand.

What I notice with regards to the various disciplines in psychology, e.g. evolutionary psychology, cognitive psychology, etc., these fields obviously have some moments of distinct overlap in findings but coming from different frameworks of reference.

So, I would take a metaphor of the entire hopes and dreams of all knowledge in psychology in some Platonic world, some abstract, would be a big black sphere. Each discipline is a light shone on that sphere.

At times, they form something like a Venn diagram with each other with this mutually distinct but partially overlapping findings but coming from those different frameworks of reference or lenses.

What might ameliorate the issues with regards to the fragmentation of that knowledge based on differences in perspective in epistemology in psychology?

Mehta: I guess if there was some way of getting groups of people who do not think the same way to work with each other. I think right now the trend is “let’s encourage collaboration,” but what happens naturally is people who think alike work together because that is what you need for a collaboration [Laughing] to work.

Jacobsen: Political affiliation links to personality, right?

Mehta: There is partly that. I think those political links would affect how you think in terms of how you would approach problems, especially if there is going to be an ideological part.

Let us say within social neuroscience, “Let’s look for a biological basis for these constructs that we are viewing through a very limited lens,” you have all this work using event-related potentials trying to look at the biological basis of the implicit associations, but it always involves targets of white vs. black with white people using it.

But we are not using some crucial comparisons such as black look at white vs. black because that is what you would need to say it is that in-group and out-group difference. If I have read the social psychology literature, nobody wants to touch it.

What I have noticed in reading the beginning of articles, they say blacks show the same prejudices that whites do against blacks. I remember one study they showed faces on a screen.

The black faces were seen as larger and more threatening, but it was not only by whites but by blacks as well. There is something about having a darker skin color that our brains, for whatever reason is not clear to me, is registered as more threatening and that is putting them at more risk for all these horrible things that are happening to them.

If that got out and people knew that, then we could address the core problems but because no one wants to look at that side then the problems here will be solved because nobody wants to talk about that angle whatsoever.

Jacobsen: So, that part of the sphere remains dark or even if not dark only partially lit.

Mehta: Yes, it is like inattentional blindness or willful hemi-neglect.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Mehta: “We must not look at that.” We must be blind to that, even though it is staring you in the face.

12. Jacobsen: I remember some of the research on spousal abuse, where the focus is rightfully on women in the home, but looking at the rates it was something like a 1% difference between men and women.

It was a difference in style. Men were more prone to physical violence. Women were more prone to social and emotional violence, or abuse. That second part of that statement is that part not brought into the discussion. I do not see it.

Mehta: Yes, it is very hard. If you bring it up, you are called a Men’s Rights Activist, as if that is somehow a bad thing. But by extension of being one, you must somehow be a misogynist. Unfortunately, the political climate has gotten very heated.

But I think people are clueing in that all that is happening is that the Left/Liberal side of that doesn’t have arguments and are resorting to name calling. We are starting to see people say, “We have had enough and your game is up.”

Hopefully, that is what I try to do in my class. “Let’s be the voice of reason, you guys are going to the be the next generation, show the public that you can tackle these discussions. That you can lead and can do that in a positive manner.”

That whole idea of balancing the positive psychology with being realistic and open to people who think very differently from ourselves, so we can reach common ground. Maybe, not everyone will be 100% happy.

But at least, they can feel like part of the conversation and can get part of what they were looking for. I think that is a more realistic way of trying to approach things than what the social movements of the past did, which was “let’s grab life by the horns and our way is the right way.”

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Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Professor, Psychology, Acadia University.

[2] Individual Publication Date: March 22, 2018 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mehta; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2018 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] B.Sc. (Honours), University of Toronto; M.Sc., McGill University; Ph.D., McGill University.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. A Conversation with Professor Rick Mehta on Self-Discovery, View Changes, and Conveyed Messages (Part One) [Online].March 2018; 16(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mehta.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, March 22). A Conversation with Professor Rick Mehta on Self-Discovery, View Changes, and Conveyed Messages (Part One). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mehta.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. A Conversation with Professor Rick Mehta on Self-Discovery, View Changes, and Conveyed Messages (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A, March. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mehta>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “A Conversation with Professor Rick Mehta on Self-Discovery, View Changes, and Conveyed Messages (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mehta.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “A Conversation with Professor Rick Mehta on Self-Discovery, View Changes, and Conveyed Messages (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A (March 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mehta.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘A Conversation with Professor Rick Mehta on Self-Discovery, View Changes, and Conveyed Messages (Part One)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 16.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mehta>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘A Conversation with Professor Rick Mehta on Self-Discovery, View Changes, and Conveyed Messages (Part One)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 16.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mehta.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “A Conversation with Professor Rick Mehta on Self-Discovery, View Changes, and Conveyed Messages (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 16.A (2018):March. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mehta>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. A Conversation with Professor Rick Mehta on Self-Discovery, View Changes, and Conveyed Messages (Part One) [Internet]. (2018, March; 16(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mehta.

License and Copyright

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Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2018-03-15

Two Short, Separate Conversations with Ben McDonald and Howie Slugh

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 16.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Twelve)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: March 15, 2018

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,603

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Two short, separate conversations with Ben McDonald and Howie Slugh. Both interviews were conducted in late 2017 with recommendations from Pardes Seleh. McDonald discusses personal background, personal studies, the general state of America, the media and journalism, cross-political conversations, blanket demonization, and assessment of Trump. Slugh discusses personal background, Orthodox Judaism, cultural and media representations of Judaism, the state of America for 2017, virtue in the individual and in the society, ethics, the Trump Administration, and a personal hero. 

Keywords: Ben McDonald, conversations, Howie Slugh, media, political science, Trump, Utah, Washington

Two Short, Separate Conversations with Ben McDonald and Howie Slugh[1],[2],[3],[4]

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Let’s start with some family background regarding religion, geography, culture, and language.

Ben McDonald: I grew up in Salt Lake City, Utah. I am not personally religious. My grandpa is an Episcopal priest. I grew up around Mormons too, living in Salt Lake City. I have a bunch of family members who aren’t religious as well.

2. Jacobsen: What are you studying in school?

McDonald: I am a political science major and a journalism minor.

3. Jacobsen: When you’re looking at the general state of America, what is your perspective on it?

McDonald: I think it is becoming a little more divided, but as more time goes by things become more divided because everyone is so polarized with everything. You see this with politics being involved in every aspect of everything. I think it is starting to turn back to where you see people who are more set in their ways.

It is hard to have a discussion with people. But you have people who still don’t care as much. There are people who want to go about their own business. I think there are people who aren’t interested in politics are being made to be involved in it.

4. Jacobsen: If you look at the landscape of the media, in our own field of journalism, tied to politics to a degree, do you think that the media are doing their job sufficiently or do you think that they are failing in their journalistic duties?

McDonald: I think there are the journalists who do a good job. But I think people are starting to distrust the media, even fake media or the smaller newspapers, but even national things and YouTube. The reportage on things that aren’t necessarily a story or a worthy cause.

A lot of not truthful things that the media reports on makes people not trust them. I think the gap of people not trusting them is growing more and more, the more and more it goes on.

5. Jacobsen: Do you think this contributes to a mild decline in cross-political conversations? In other words, Republicans speaking to Democrats and vice versa, or other political orientations.

McDonald: I think so because I think people want to watch their side and see the other side as the bad guys. They don’t want to have a conversation with them. I think people can be portrayed as – whatever side you’re on – the bad guy, which makes you not want to converse with them, in my opinion.

6. Jacobsen: In a way, it is a form of blanket demonization so you don’t have to think about the other side.

McDonald: Yes, it is othering the other side, so you’re right no matter what you do.

Jacobsen: In a way, does this amount to a form of moral self-exaltation? “I am right. they are wrong. Therefore, I am better.”

McDonald: Yes.

7. Jacobsen: With regards to the two areas of your expertise, we talked about one, which is journalism. We also talked about politics a bit. For the Trump administration and the surrounding rhetoric, do you think President Trump is doing a good job, an okay job, or a poor job, in his position as the President of the United States?

McDonald: I think he’s doing an okay job. I think he’s done what he can do personally. But a lot of the agenda had gotten stopped in Congress for multiple reasons, whatever they may be. Though I think his rhetoric could be better, which has set him behind of what he wants to accomplish. But I he’s done a relatively okay to a good job, overall.

8. Jacobsen: Do you have any final feelings or thoughts in conclusion based on the conversation today?

McDonald: I think politics has become so polarized, so I think people need to re-evaluate and take a look at what is happening.

9. Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Ben.

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Let’s start with some family background regarding religion, geography, culture, and language?

Howie Slugh: I was born in Queens, New York. I lived in Fairlawn, New Jersey. Then we moved to Hollywood, Florida. I am an Orthodox Jew. My parents are Orthodox Jews. Now, I live in Washington, DC.

2. Jacobsen: With regards to the Orthodox or I assume Hasidic Jewish background with parents, do you still practice?

Slugh: Yes, I continue to be an Orthodox Jew.

3. Jacobsen: With regards to that faith, what do you consider to be some of the more common misconceptions about the faith – beliefs and practices? What truths dispel them?

Slugh: I am not particularly keen on cultural or media representations of Judaism, so I wouldn’t really know. I know the most famous representations of Judaism are not religious or only religious in shallow ways, or in “spiritual but not religious” ways.

None of those would accurately represent Judaism, obviously. I have not seen a super amount of representation of Judaism in the culture.

4. Jacobsen: Taking that and pivoting into perspective, I want to get your perspective on the state of America 2017. If you look at America, broadly speaking, to set the groundwork of this part of the conversation, what is your general take on what are the more things? Do you think things are positive, relatively stable, or negative?

Slugh: So, I am Burkean in addition to being an Orthodox Jew. I think they go well together. I look at 2017 and see a concerning lack of faith in our institutions, and lack of faith and dedication to the permanent things. That is certainly concerning.

I do think things do tend to go slowly. I think things are more resistant than people think they are. I don’t think things are that bad. Things tend to be sticky. They take a long time. I forgot who said it at the moment, but there’s a lot of rot in a country. This is not a bad thing, it means that countries can withstand a lot of negative things.

The country has a negative that we can make better. But America has been around 200+ years and has a lot of social capital. I don’t think it is going away anytime soon.

Things, incrementally, might be headed in a not great direction in some ways, but also, thank God, we’re healthy and living long and generally a still very prosperous country. Even in some social trends, things are improving.

The fact that sexual abusers are getting called out and punished is definitely a good trend, especially if there is an underlying cultural trend. People saying, “Hey, things aren’t arising ex nihilo. People aren’t harassing out of nowhere. There is a general culture of not taking virtue seriously enough. We should foster virtue rather than only going after the bad guys.”

That would be a tremendous change. Things can change quickly. But the permanent things are very permanent, respect and love for family, respect for country, religion in general, even if they wax and wane are very permanent.

Even if something is pulling those permanent things, we can quickly go to strengthening them. All the while they remain fixed and steady. It is easy in the heat of the moment to say 2017 is a super, monumental moment

But if you take a step back, it’s probably not that important.

5. Jacobsen: You mentioned the permanent things and virtue. Two things, a person, and tradition, that come to mind for me are Aristotle and the Abrahamic faiths. So, when you’re referencing permanent things such as family and faith as well as things such as an ethic grounded in virtue, I want to dive a little deeper into that, if I may. What are you defining as virtue, in an individual and in a society?

Slugh: The general thing that comes to my mind is Burke, not necessarily on virtue, but Robbie George on virtue. Working to create an environment Where the pursuit of the good and human flourishing is available, I guess teleology in there too. The purpose of people is to live a good life, to have families, to love their children, to work to the flourishing of their fellow humans.

That is a virtuous life. A way that does not cause suffering of your fellow people. That treats your fellow people as ends and not means. That follows the Golden Rule treating others as you would like to be treated, not subjectively but objectively.

If you want to be treated poorly, you shouldn’t treat others poorly. It is not that. It is how would a human being with the characteristics of a human being want to be treated, not how you as an individual want to be treated.

It is creating those kinds of circumstances where those things that are good for humans are able to be pursued. That you are not interfering with other people’s pursuits. It is a positive and negative. You are fostering an environment where people can pursue the things that are good for people and not hindering those things that are good for people.

You can see this is in history, religion, tradition. There are sources for finding things. It is not the simplest question, but it is also less complex than people think. We have the American ideal of fairly independent people living with their families and loved ones and not harming one another, adding valuable things to the world.

People may scoff at it as simplistic, but it has endured for all of American history and long before that. Sometimes, “simple” is good

6. Jacobsen: In a way, its simplicity may underly the carving out of a lot of excesses that may have been attached to it in earlier times as that kind of ethic developed. 

Slugh: It is certainly possible.

7. Jacobsen: I want to talk about the Trump Administration or President Trump himself. If you were taking the perspective of a teacher, and this is a bit of a lighter question, what would be the grade and comments section?

Slugh: Basically, very incomplete, because of no significant legislation, a lot of stuff he has done that hasn’t required Congress has been quite good because he has released regulations repeating the HHS abortiofacient/contraceptive Mandate.

Which is now in the interim final rule, the contraception mandate now carves out an actual exemption for religious people and religious institutions and even conscientious objectors, as opposed to the prior accommodation that wasn’t a real accommodation.

It still forced people to be complicit with evil, or at least what they considered evil. He nominated terrific judges, Gorsich and a number of appellate and district court judges. He signed the Mexico City Policy very early on in the administration: day 3. It wasn’t day 1, but day 3. It prohibits the funding of foreign abortionists, which saves lives, obviously, and is a terrific thing

So, in those courts, he has done very well. Obviously, his rhetoric has left a lot to be desired, and his personal ethic [Laughing] has left a lot to be desired, but one role of a president is to sign legislation

Somewhat, it is also Congress’s fault, but he certainly hasn’t helped matters on this pointing, getting matters through. He has three more years at least to get some more legislation through. Then we can more fully judge his legacy at that point.

Obviously, if we get wiped out in the midterms, then there will be a major difficulty and stumbling block in the way of his getting any legislation through. That will make it much more likely that he gets a bad grade. That’s where we stand now.

8. Jacobsen: Last question, who is a personal hero for you?

Slugh: I had the privilege to know. I had conversations with him. I met him in Italy in a law school class. I was very impressed by his determination to keep on pushing forward, even when things seemed bleak. He certainly recognized a lot of times when things seemed bleak, and when he was on a bit of a quixotic quest. He realized that. Sometimes, it seemed like he didn’t make a difference, but kept pursuing what he thought was right in a brilliant, funny, and energetic way.

He was not pollyannish about it, saying, “Tomorrow, I will wake up and Americans will realize how the Constitution should be interpreted and what the rule of law means, and what it means to be a country of laws and not men.” But he kept his eyes focused on history and on what the right thing to do was. He kept pursuing that goal. I find that very admirable. He was a terrific person, who was easy to get along with and overall a person that I admire greatly.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Slugh is an Attorney who works in Washington, D.C. McDonald is a Journalist.

[2] Individual Publication Date: March 15, 2018 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mcdonald-slugh; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2018 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Two Short, Separate Conversations with Ben McDonald and Howie Slugh [Online].March 2018; 16(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mcdonald-slugh.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, March 15). Two Short, Separate Conversations with Ben McDonald and Howie Slugh. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mcdonald-slugh.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Two Short, Separate Conversations with Ben McDonald and Howie Slugh. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A, March. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mcdonald-slugh>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “Two Short, Separate Conversations with Ben McDonald and Howie Slugh.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mcdonald-slugh.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Two Short, Separate Conversations with Ben McDonald and Howie Slugh.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A (March 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mcdonald-slugh.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Two Short, Separate Conversations with Ben McDonald and Howie Slugh‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 16.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mcdonald-slugh>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Two Short, Separate Conversations with Ben McDonald and Howie Slugh‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 16.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mcdonald-slugh.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Two Short, Separate Conversations with Ben McDonald and Howie Slugh.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 16.A (2018):March. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mcdonald-slugh>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Two Short, Separate Conversations with Ben McDonald and Howie Slugh [Internet]. (2018, March; 16(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mcdonald-slugh.

License and Copyright

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Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2018-03-08

Dr. Oren Amitay, Ph.D., C.Psych. on His Life and Views: Registered Psychologist and Media Consultant (Part Three)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 16.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Twelve)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: March 8, 2018

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 4,246

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

An extensive interview with Dr. Oren Amitay, Ph.D., C.Psych. He discusses: personal philosophy in terms of epistemology and engagement with people, non-shyness, Carl Jung, Freud and Rogers; cognitive complexity in animals, Jordan Peterson, Magnanimousology and Martyrology; and an ending note with Alice in Wonderland.

Keywords: clinical psychology, media consultant, Oren Amitay, registered psychologist.

Dr. Oren Amitay, Ph.D., C.Psych. on His Life and Views: Registered Psychologist and Media Consultant (Part Three)[1],[2],[3],[4]

1. Jacobsen: What you are getting at is what we both know, the countries with the highest single parenthood rates in the developed world are the United States, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, and the United Kingdom, I believe.

In this country, we do have that lack of parental guidance, support, encouragement, mentorship, and so on. I think that is very apt in terms of describing patient lives, I guess. In terms of personal philosophy, I am thinking of themes consistent across domains of life.

What do you take as your personal philosophy in terms of epistemology and engagement with people?

Amitay: There are a few. Because of the way I was raised, I tell people that I am kind of antisocial, but in a different way. There are two types of “colloquial antisocial.” The one that most people think of are those who are shy or don’t like being with people.

Jacobsen: Zimbardo’s research on shyness and misanthropes come to mind for those categories for me.

Amitay: Sure, that is not me. But that is what people think of when they think of antisocial. Then there is the clinical diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder. And that is definitely not me because it describes someone who is reckless, impulsive, irresponsible, deceitful, aggressive and/or lacking in empathy; people with antisocial personality disorder have a history of harming or violating the rights of others with no remorse.

I am sure there is a better term for it, but I call myself “antisocial” in the sense that I do not allow society to dictate how I function. I stay within certain parameters and rules, but I do not do so blindly; I question them all of the time. If I choose to do something, fine.

But the point is that I am choosing to act in a certain way because I know that it is in my best interests to do so or because I want to do it, even though I know I could do something that contravenes a particular norm, rule or expectation—and there’s a chance that I may still do those things at some other time. The opposite of my perspective is what Karen Horney called, “The tyranny of the should,” whereby people are driven by a “neurotic” need to be a certain way or to do things that they believe society or others expect of them, without questioning why.

But when you ask about personal philosophy and how I interact with others, I balance a few things: One, I believe humans are, by nature, self-interested or self-serving. I am more on the Freudian side than the Rogerian side in that regard. If you put a bunch of kids on a deserted island, Rogers thinks you would get utopia. I say, “No, you are going to end up with Lord of the Flies.”

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Amitay: That is why communism or socialism will never work. That is, within any given group of more than a few people, whether 10, 20, or whatever, there will be at least one person or a few people thinking, “Everyone is working together and cooperating with each other. I can take advantage of that.”

That is part of our human nature. Why wouldn’t it be? Every other animal is self-serving or self-interested. Richard Dawkins showed in The Selfish Gene that even apparently altruistic behaviours are, in fact, self-serving. There is also a kind of reciprocal altruism, whereby you scratch my back and I will scratch yours.

Humans are self-serving, I have no doubt. Selfish would be the harshest description; self-serving is not as bad. Then there is self-interested, which is a relatively benign term

There are anomalies, of course. But are such people genuinely altruistic because of some gene sequence? Is it due to the way they were raised? There is even a disorder where someone gives, gives, gives beyond what they can give. They give money, time, whatever to the point that it comes at some great cost to him/herself.

Jacobsen: Magnanimousology [Laughing]?

Amitay: [Laughing] Martyrology? That is a good name for that.

In any event, notwithstanding my belief that humans are self-interested and my inclination not to be constrained by societal conventions or expectations, I am guided by a “humanistic” personal philosophy, which is “do no harm to others.”

Do I want to hurt certain people? Of course. But I typically do not act on such feelings, or the “harm” I cause is minor, for instance knocking someone down a peg or two on Twitter.

This brings us to another important part of the human condition, which is the dark side we all have. Carl Jung called this “the Shadow.” Dr. Peterson talks about that a lot.

When I was reading Carl Jung, the idea of the Shadow really appealed to me. I always knew I had a dark side and I was never afraid to access it. So many people are afraid to acknowledge or to tap into their Shadow because of shame, guilt, fear of losing control, or some other reason. I try to encourage people to understand that they too have this dark side and there is nothing wrong with admitting that, as long as you do not let it overwhelm you—otherwise you are potentially entering the realm of psychopathy or evil.

The Shadow is part of what makes us human. That is part of my philosophy. We are incredibly flawed creatures. As long as you recognize that and can accept it, you can become better; not better than someone else, not better because someone tells you to do so, but better because you want to grow as a human being.

I do believe that we as animals are motivated to grow to the best of our capabilities. It is survival: be the best that you can be. Other animals do not have neuroses like us because they are not being told, “You are not good enough.” Yet, they do develop in the direction of becoming the best animal they can be, otherwise they will not survive long.

2. Jacobsen: They do not live long enough to know what can pop up. Their cognitive complexity isn’t as far as ours.

On a side note, Dr. Peterson has recently been saying that he finally discovered what “The meek shall inherit the earth” means, since it does not seem to make much sense. In short, this phrase is a translation of the notion that the man who knows he could unsheathe his sword and wreak real havoc/destruction if he wished, but chooses not to do so, is the most noble and powerful man, and he shall “inherit” the earth. In other words, if you know you are capable of doing terrible things, yet you choose to access and harness your Shadow in ways that end up benefiting others, you are a truly righteous person.

Conversely, those who have antisocial personality disorder go in the other direction: They don’t care about other people. They break rules wantonly. They “rationalize” or make cheap excuses for whatever bad things they do.

Before my aforementioned crisis when I was 27-years-old, I used to do that to some degree: I would make up self-serving lies like we all do. I would justify things, rationalize. But when I was struck by that moment of profound insight, I thought, “No, I am going to own everything completely.” Since then, I am always completely aware of what I do. When I screw up, I know I have screwed up. If I have done something bad or wrong, I know it and I feel an appropriate amount of guilt about it.”

I have a conscience, thank God, because fear does not usually stop me from doing things. Rather, I do not want to harm other people; it is that simple. That is the way I function.

Another thing to consider is that we have an immensely powerful prefrontal cortex and an incredible capacity for language. I put a premium on language because there has to be a reason we have such a complex system and that we are born with the ability to learn something like this.

If you think about it, there is no way that we should be able to process and to understand language as well as we can at such a young age. It is not possible that we learn it purely through exposure or conditioning because our abilities develop at a rate totally disproportionately to our experiences. Noam Chomsky argues that we must therefore have a language processing centre in the brain.

It is interesting and disappointing: I tell my students, “There are so many books I have planned to write but I have never got around to finishing any of them. Instead, other people go ahead and end up writing about things I have thought of as well. Kudos to them.”

As an example, Dr. Peterson created his Self Authoring program. When I first decided to become a psychologist about 25 years ago, I wanted to create a therapy based on something I had read about “self-narrative” theory, which really appealed to me.

Humans are the products of the stories that we tell ourselves. I tell my students and patients, “It all boils down to perspective.” Whatever situation or experience you find yourself in, you can interpret it in many different ways. As long as you are not “deluding” yourself, you should try your best to look at things in the most adaptive way.

For example, if I go up to a beautiful woman and say, “Hi,” and she says, “Get away from me toad,” I can look at that in several different ways: I can say, “I am a horrible toad. I should go kill myself.” Or, “I guess I was punching above my weight class; I should aim for someone I have a chance of attracting.” Or, “Jeez, she is not a nice person,” etc. As long as I am reasonable or realistic and don’t think, for instance, “She is just saying that because she really loves me but does not want to risk getting hurt,” I should try my best to interpret and process the scenario in ways that will benefit me in some way.

We have to keep in mind that what we choose to focus on or the way we choose to interpret our experiences or the people, events and situations we observe will affect how we feel about ourselves and other people, how we function and feel the next day, what we learn from it, etc. It is based on language to a large degree. Language is how we make sense of our experiences and the world around us.

Here is one example I teach my students and patients (it does not work for certain cultures or languages such as Iranian/Farsi): I say, “When people talk, we have a tendency to say the word ‘you’ when describing a personal experience—It is a simple language convention that is intended to make the story seem more “applicable” to everyone, especially the person with whom we are speaking. For instance, if someone is talking about something that happened to them while riding the bus the other day, they might say, “When you’re riding a bus and people brush by you…”

In therapy, however, saying “you” when talking about your own personal experience is, in fact, often a way of emotionally distancing yourself from what happened. You are making it seem abstract or a generalization rather than your own personal experience. I tell my students and especially my patients, “Own your experience. Embrace it completely.”

Some people are incessant and cannot help themselves. No matter how hard they try or how many times I point out what they are doing, they seem to be compulsively disavowing themselves of the experience.

As another example, people who frequently use “stupid” or “silly” or “ridiculous” or other such negative words when referring to themselves or something they are saying tend to be self-critical. They are often perfectionistic. And they are miserable a lot of the time. They usually have no idea how often they use this kind of language to denigrate themselves.

One more example: Most people who talk quickly are very nervous. I talk a mile a minute but it is not because I am nervous; that is the way my brain operates.

In any event, when I was training to be a psychologist, my colleagues and I were listening to a recording of my very first therapy session. Whereas most of my classmates were scared, nervous or embarrassed to play their own recordings, I did not care at all. In my mind, if I sound bad, so be it. I will not be embarrassed. I will learn from it.

In this case, it was a young, attractive, intelligent, articulate and witty woman. We had a great back-and-forth. There was very little silence.

It was a great session and everyone was saying things like, “Wow! This guy is good.” They all seemed impressed with or envious of how smoothly the session went, especially since their first session recordings did not sound so good.

However, the professor gave me a disapproving look. I thought, “You asshole, don’t rain on my parade.” But he was 100% right. When I tell my students this story, I say that what we had been listening to was a great date…”

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Amitay: However, this was not a date but a therapy session. And what was lacking was any reflection on the patient’s part. The professor told me to slow it down and to not fill in the silences. When I took his advice the following week, the difference was incredible.

It made the first session seem like a waste. This next session, I saw the effects it had on her. I saw her really reflect on her words. She was focusing on her words and what they meant. She was not jumping from topic to topic and feeling to feeling. She had to sit in the moment. There was real depth to her experience and she gained some important insights.

Okay, last example: When I have students talk in small groups and then present their ideas to the class, if the student speaking says something like, “We believe that…” or “We thought that the problem you gave us…” I tell the class with a smile, “If (s)he had said, ‘I’ instead of ‘we’ right now, that would have been a pretty good indicator that (s)he may be a ‘narcissist.’ At the very least, it would have meant that they are likely the kind of person who is not a team player, who tries to make him/herself stand out or look better than everyone else, who takes credit for other people’s work, who is apt to throw you under the bus if necessary, etc.”

I would never say such things if the person had, in fact, said “I” when referring to what the group had discussed because that would make them feel so uncomfortable, given the implication of what I am explaining. But whenever I do say it, many students do seem to be reflecting on past experiences (or maybe the group work they had just done) and some of them display a look of recognition, acknowledgment, or appreciation for the accuracy of my claim.

3. Jacobsen: “We’re painting the roses red…” from Alice in Wonderland. The scene with the Queen of Hearts. These two cards are jumping around painting roses that were black/white into red because the Queen of Hearts says so.

It is just to calm everyone down. We are going to make the world her vision. Why? To appease.

Amitay: [Laughing] Right.

Jacobsen: I think that should suffice to cover much of your own life and views. Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Dr. Amitay.

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Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Registered Psychologist and Media Consultant.

[2] Individual Publication Date: March 8, 2018 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/amitay-3; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2018 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] B.Sc. (Honours), Psychology, Toronto; Ph.D., Clinical Psychology, York University.

[4] Image Credit: Dr. Oren Amitay.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Dr. Oren Amitay, Ph.D., C.Psych. on His Life and Views: Registered Psychologist and Media Consultant (Part Three) [Online].March 2018; 16(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/amitay-3.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, March 8). Dr. Oren Amitay, Ph.D., C.Psych. on His Life and Views: Registered Psychologist and Media Consultant (Part Three). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/amitay-3.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Dr. Oren Amitay, Ph.D., C.Psych. on His Life and Views: Registered Psychologist and Media Consultant (Part Three). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A, March. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/amitay-3>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “Dr. Oren Amitay, Ph.D., C.Psych. on His Life and Views: Registered Psychologist and Media Consultant (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/amitay-3.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Dr. Oren Amitay, Ph.D., C.Psych. on His Life and Views: Registered Psychologist and Media Consultant (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A (March 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/amitay-3.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Dr. Oren Amitay, Ph.D., C.Psych. on His Life and Views: Registered Psychologist and Media Consultant (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 16.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/amitay-3>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Dr. Oren Amitay, Ph.D., C.Psych. on His Life and Views: Registered Psychologist and Media Consultant (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 16.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/amitay-3.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Dr. Oren Amitay, Ph.D., C.Psych. on His Life and Views: Registered Psychologist and Media Consultant (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 16.A (2018):March. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/amitay-3>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Dr. Oren Amitay, Ph.D., C.Psych. on His Life and Views: Registered Psychologist and Media Consultant (Part Three) [Internet]. (2018, March; 16(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/amitay-3.

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Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2018-03-01

Dr. Oren Amitay, Ph.D., C.Psych. on His Life and Views: Registered Psychologist and Media Consultant (Part Two)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 16.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Twelve)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: March 1, 2018

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 5,542

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

An extensive interview with Dr. Oren Amitay, Ph.D., C.Psych. He discusses: current tasks and responsibilities and his process; clinical and teaching work, and the different therapies such as  Rational Emotive Therapy, Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, Dialectical Behavioural Therapy, etc., having overlap; and additional services within his professional work and much of the work as re-parenting the patient.

Keywords: clinical psychology, media consultant, Oren Amitay, registered psychologist.

Dr. Oren Amitay, Ph.D., C.Psych. on His Life and Views: Registered Psychologist and Media Consultant (Part Two)[1],[2],[3],[4]

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Now, what are your current tasks and responsibilities when you are dealing with up to 30 patients and teaching? Can you walk us through that process? Your style in which to engage patients as well as style in which to engage students.

Dr. Oren Amitay: Right, so, for my clinical practice, thank God for my wife. She found me another office nearly two years ago that is more convenient for me and is available 24/7. Before that, I was at my mentor’s office. Because I wanted to keep as many days free as possible to teach, do assessments and write up reports, I would schedule all of my patients on two (or sometimes three) days, meaning that I would see them straight from 8 or 9am until as late as 10 or 11pm.

With this new office my wife found, I can see a few patients here or there at any time throughout the week. Plus, I still have one long day at my mentor’s office, but it is not as bad as it used to be.

As for my clinical work, I see individuals, families, and couples. I do sex therapy. I do relationship counselling. I do family therapy. I used to do group therapy. I incorporate eight different types of therapies or orientations, some of which overlap with others, so they are not entirely different.

As my mentor taught me, part of the therapy is technique but another aspect is adopting the right mindset, understanding a person from a certain perspective and seeing how they came to be rather than using specific tools and techniques. But I definitely need to use the various techniques and tools I have learned as well. It depends on the person, their situation and their needs.

And, as research clearly shows, the most important part of treatment is the therapeutic/working alliance or relationship. It is critical that the patient feel safe and not judged at all. This latter part is easy for me because my upbringing was so “different” that I don’t know what “normal” looks like. And my patients can sense this with me. So there is no judgment, although I make sure my patients know that I will not blindly accept anything they say or do. That is not genuine compassion and it is usually not helpful.

I should add that my parents told my brother and me when we were kids, “We don’t know what the hell we are doing.” My mother had given birth to me shortly before she became 22 and my father was a “crazy hippy artist.” They explicitly encouraged us to always question or challenge them.

I have a memory of them saying that so I was probably about four or five years old. The most important point about them saying such a thing is that, growing up, I never internalized their craziness, their many problems or their bad parenting. I knew that those things were on them. Now, that doesn’t mean I didn’t develop my own neuroses and crazy traits. But it was never because I blamed myself for my parents’ many faults and failings.

The one problem was that, notwithstanding my parent’s encouragement to question or challenge them, my mother didn’t like being challenged. But I was too stubborn and kept challenging her; I never stopped. Her responses to my challenging her were never appropriate, nor were here responses to the very many bad things I did; the punishment was always extremely disproportionate to the crime. But again, I knew she was not acting like a good parent. I always knew I was doing something wrong and I chose to do it, hoping that I would get away with it or that I could talk/lie my way out of it if I got caught. But I never thought I was so horrible that I deserved the kinds of things my mom said or did to me when I pissed her off.

The reason I am saying all of this is that it had a huge impact on how I saw the world, how I saw myself. It did something to me and for me. Interestingly, even though I thought I was always able to recognize and to admit whatever I had done—to myself, that is; I would often lie to others in order to avoid some negative consequence—the crisis I had mentioned earlier caused me to realize for the first time in my life that I was not being 100% honest with myself.

Immediately following the third horrible session with the aforementioned psychologist I was seeing after those major failures that had occurred within weeks of each other, I spontaneously had a moment of profound insight. It inspired me to come up with a thought exercise that, for the first time in my life, showed me that I had not been seeing things as honestly and clearly when I had conflicts with people as I had believed.

Sadly, I did have very many interpersonal conflicts and I never adequately appreciated the nature and degree of my role in all of these unpleasant interactions. On that day, however, I realized, “Holy shit! I am so far off the mark.” Once that happened, I finally fully accepted how messed up I was, how much of an asshole I was, and so on.

It was enlightening. It was amazing. I couldn’t believe it. It was a weight off of my shoulders because I was no longer carrying any self-serving “delusions.” From that point on, I dedicated myself to making sure I never employ any (unconscious) defence mechanisms. I see myself, my actions and the world around me as “objectively” as possible, no matter how ugly, shameful, embarrassing, scary, distressing, discouraging, etc. any of these things might be.

I am able to look at these things—including my patients—without negative judgment. Rather, I accept everything for what it is and focus on making sure that I or my patients are making the most adaptive decisions in light of the reality of my/their actual thoughts, feelings, motives, actions or circumstances.

My patients know they can tell me anything. Not everyone feels comfortable doing so at first, of course, but most feel that they can open up and say things. I relate to them in a human-to-human way. I tell everybody, “Look, I wish I was as good of a father or husband as I am with my patients. I wish I could be that open, non-judgmental, and so on, because I am a judgmental asshole in my normal life. I try not to be, but that is part of who I am.”

I have to work on that. With my patients, it is suspended for that 50-60 minutes with them. I am there for them. I am very Rogerian in that sense. It is empathy. I always tell my students and the people I train, “As long as you can make the other person feel you get them or are doing your damndest to try to get them, everything else is gravy.”

If your only value is being empathetic, you will not be the greatest therapist, but it is the first step. I know many psychologists and psychiatrists who are horrible when it comes to being genuinely empathetic. However, some of them have mastered their technique, which gives them a sense of confidence, and that can have a positive impact on the patient. It can help the patient develop a sense of “I can do it.”

But I have literally lost count of the very many people who have told me horror stories about their experiences in treatment. Look, this is the last place that you would ever want to be judged. Sadly, far too many therapists do make their patients feel judged or demeaned—usually inadvertently.

As alluded to above, I am very empathetic but I do not let my patients live in fantasy; I call them out in a compassionate manner. They know I will do this and they know that everything I say or do is without any bad intentions.

As an example, I tell my students, “When certain patients with a history of bad relationships tell me excitedly that they have met a new person, the first thing I ask them is, ‘What are you going to do to mess this one up?’” They sometimes get shocked or upset. But they realize why I am saying it. If they don’t get it, I explain the reason for such a question.

That is, when you have a typical conversation, you are processing things on one level. If I say something that is a little bit “off,” unusual or otherwise unexpected, you will hear and process things a little bit differently. In the example I just gave, my blunt question puts them in a different emotional state and makes it easier for me to penetrate or to circumvent their defences. It also forces them to reflect on and to recognize what they bring to each and every relationship that they have ended up sabotaging.

For instance, they might end up saying, “Oh, I didn’t know I put up huge walls,” or “I had no idea my supposedly witty comments were actually insulting to someone on a first date.” It is a cliché, but you truly cannot change something if you are not aware of or cannot admit what is wrong.

Helping people acknowledge their flaws in such a way that they do not feel you are merely mocking, criticizing or devaluing them is what will help them make the kinds of improvements they need to make so that they can function better. This is true compassion.

It is funny because many people who love Dr. Jordan Peterson believe he is saying that compassion is bad or not a desirable trait. However, that is a misinterpretation of his message. That is, compassion is very important if employed properly, and Dr. Peterson himself is compassionate with his patients and all of his fans.

What he describes as “bad compassion” is when you are not telling people the truth, even if it may be painful to hear. Or, as their parent or teacher or anyone else in a position of authority, you are “spoiling” or disempowering them by being too lenient or indulgent, or you are being too intrusive and solving all of their problems instead of letting them figure things out (with some guidance) so that they can learn to deal with failure or other adversities. This enables them to become more resilient and resourceful, and we hope to become the best person they can be.

Part of this process involves helping people learn to tolerate discomfort. That goes along with finding the will and the courage to confront whatever it is they might need to confront, whether it is an illness or how shitty their parents are or their bad behaviours in relationships or the realization that their meaningless job is slowly robbing them of the will to live, or whatever.

Whatever it is, they have to learn to confront and to tolerate it. It grounds them. That is one thing that I do. Another thing that I do, and some of my colleagues think I am crazy for doing this, is something that is similar to the system for Dialectical Behavioural Therapy for borderline patients.

I don’t know how it is in other programs, but in Toronto where one of the earlier DBT programs were established, they originally had a pager system. Patients were able to call their therapist at all hours of the day or night and they could expect a call back within a relatively short period of time.

I do something similar, in that I am available 24/7. A few patients take advantage of this but most respect my rules and boundaries. That is, they can reach out to me by phone, text or email at literally any time of the day, whether it is a crisis, they want to vent instead of saying or doing something that they will later regret, they want to share an insight, they remembered something they forgot to say in therapy, they want to suggest something for next session, etc. They know I am not necessarily going to answer or get back to them right away, although I do try to be very responsive.

My mentor was against this because he didn’t want them to develop a sense of overdependence on the therapist, which I fully understand. I tell my patients, “I am not expecting that you will have to call me, but if you ever feel the need to reach out, please know that I am here for you.” And that feeling that someone is out there who “has your back” can be very empowering; it can make you feel that you are a valuable or worthy person who deserves not to mess up your life or to undermine yourself.

Especially with technology, many people have a tendency to act on impulse and send texts or make calls that they really should not do. I tell such patients to text me instead because by doing that they’re taking themselves out of that moment where they are likely to sabotage themselves in some way. If they can step back and not act on emotion right at the moment, that gives them a chance not to be a slave to their limbic system and instead to access their frontal lobes or prefrontal cortex: the part of the brain that controls impulse and enables one to exercise more rational thinking and better judgment.

In short, it can help defuse the momentary urge or compulsion, which is when people often get in trouble. It is similar to the DBT model, which in turn seems a lot like AA. One of my former students, who is in AA, got really turned onto the DBT model when I taught about it, and now he is an expert in it. But when he first looked into DBT further, he came back to me and said, “This is fucking AA” [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Amitay: He was actually right. A lot of DBT is like AA in some key ways, including the aforementioned “pager” system, which is like “sponsors” in AA. As mentioned, when you are in that rough spot and know somebody is out there to help if you reach out, it can be extremely helpful.

Believe it or not—and this makes me sick to my stomach—I know some therapists who will say, “That was a 10-minute call. We will pro-rate it at $40.” Come on, really?! Jeez. They do the same thing with emails.

If I charged for all of my emails, phone calls, texts, and other things I do for my patients outside of session, it would increase my salary substantially. But I do not need that extra money. I make more than enough as it is. I think it is important that my patients know I do this for them, even though I do not have to do it, and many therapists do not.

Plus, my patients can’t say, “Oh, you are only doing this because I am paying you.” Some do say that about our work in therapy, but with this system, I can say, “I do not have to do this for you; I could spend my free time not thinking about you at all but I do it because I do actually care.” Sadly, many people do not have that feeling that even one person cares about them and/or has their back.

2. Jacobsen: Between the clinical and the teaching work, some things come to mind on reflection. One, the relationship between Dialectical Behavioural Therapy and AA, and the comment, of the person that you knew, that they were basically the same.

Do you think between things like Rational Emotive Therapy, Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, DBT, etc, that there is a lot more overlap than there needs to be in the sense that they do not necessarily need to be disjunct?

Amitay: Yes, I have said this many times. When someone comes up with a “new” therapy or “new” approach, they are often pretty much reinventing the wheel. I prefer to take “the common factors” approach: You look at “What are the shared or common elements in the various therapies that make them effective or beneficial?” Is it the therapist? Is it the approach?

I spend a lot of time criticizing Cognitive Behavioural Therapy in my classes. However, I also tell my students that it is one of my eight orientations and, if someone were to say to me, “From all of the orientations you use, if you had to choose one for yourself, which one would it be?” I would say, “CBT.” Currently, I would also say ACT/Acceptance Therapy, which is similar to CBT in many ways but deals with emotions and other important elements better, I believe.

I tell my students that my criticisms are not about CBT itself but rather about therapists who focus too much on the technique or structure of CBT, to the exclusion of being able to really connect with and to understand their patients. For example, with “CBT for depression,” it may be 16 sessions. Session 1, you do this. Then session 2, 3, and so on, you do A, B and C.

A therapist who does that too rigidly is not a good therapist because mental health issues, therapy and life are not that neat. Yes, treatment should be evidence-based, but we need to also recognize that the work we do is often messy because humans are “messy.” You can’t always do things according to set schedules and expect them to progress as you would like.

That is what worries me: when people are such strong adherents to one approach or the other. If the patient does not act as the therapist expects, they often make the patient feel incompetent, devalued and demotivated.

And, as mentioned earlier, all of the evidence shows that the therapeutic relationship is the most important element of successful treatment. So, to me, it is recognizing the underlying factors that are common to most or all major therapies, having an adaptive personal philosophy, understanding how humans work, having a very strong knowledge base with respect to psychotherapy, and trying to find an approach, technique, and so on that might be most appropriate in a given situation.

Now, my mentor used to say, “Anyone that calls themselves eclectic doesn’t know what they are doing.” He believed that you should not take different approaches to working with a patient because it can make them feel confused or even overwhelmed if the therapist is trying a bunch of different things each week. Patients want a sense of stability and this can undermine such an atmosphere.

I can understand my mentor’s point because I do know some therapists who do that. One thing didn’t work this week, so they try something entirely different the next week, and they do this in a way that makes the patient question the therapist’s competence, confidence and/or effectiveness.

I tell my patients at the beginning that I have eight different orientations from which I operate and, as we work together, I will be able to determine which approach or technique is most appropriate for the person and their circumstances.

I also tell them that, sometimes, we operate on a more behavioural level, whereas at other times we will go to a deeper level. I add, “We do not always have to go to a deeper level or go back to your past in order to deal with your current issues adaptively.”

3. Jacobsen: If you had a knife to cut vegetables or an ax to cut a tree down with, and you’re stuck in the forest and all you have is a can of soup, at some point, you use the ax or the knife to cut the can open.

The techniques are tools. You use them as you deem fit or as the patient needs. There was something that I thought was particularly noteworthy, which you mentioned. You’re permitting or allowing patients to text or email you.

In other words, to stay in contact with you over some period of time, which they may deem important, they may be in an emotional moment. They talk to you instead or text you. Is there a sense that people who have particular problems, even disorders, are somehow having a loyalty lack in their lives, where you are providing that additional service within your services is seen as extra beneficial?

Amitay: For a lot of people who don’t have that at all, yes, it is just the idea that someone is willing to do that for them. Research shows, by the way, when it comes to social support—and I tell people all of the time, “All you need is one person in your life who you believe has your back. They don’t even have to have actually helped you. Simply this positive belief is often sufficient.”

And that is why I allow patients to reach out to me in various ways outside of session. Again, it is not about making them feel they need to do so or that they cannot do things on their own. It is simply making them feel that they are worthy enough to deserve or to receive such support if they need it. Most people get that and I think it is very important for them to feel that someone is willing to give of themselves for their sake.

Another thing I say to students, and I am going to try to articulate it in a way that it does not come off the wrong way. One thing told to me by my mentor and I have also read this elsewhere: “What a therapist does, in many cases, is re-parent the patient.”

Jacobsen: Wow, that’s powerful.

Amitay: Some may take that as “What? Are you being condescending?” No, many people come to therapy because they didn’t get proper parenting, whether they were lacking in love, attention, validation, support, guidance, discipline, etc. in childhood.

When I help train people and they tell me about their patient, I ask them, “Who in their family do you represent to them? Which role do you play in their life?” I then see it in their eyes: “Holy shit, I became their mother!” or brother or whomever.

And that is one way to look at things. It is part of my philosophy. Interestingly, back in the day, I was younger than most of my patients. Now, I am older and many of my patients are in their late teens, 20s or early 30s. Many of them are in my oldest daughter’s age group.

It is funny. I don’t think I come across as a parental figure. My mentor, on the other hand, is a grandfather and is very calming. Some people who want to see me really need someone more like my mentor, who will be low key and slow, and will bring a sense of calm and stability to the person’s life for one hour per week; it can really help reorient them. I will refer them to him, although I will also let them know they can work with me if they would prefer that.

Also, I do in fact act somewhat similarly with certain patients: I am very calm and low key. However, I have to really work on presenting in that way because it is not my nature.

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Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Registered Psychologist and Media Consultant.

[2] Individual Publication Date: March 1, 2018 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/amitay-2; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2018 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] B.Sc. (Honours), Psychology, Toronto; Ph.D., Clinical Psychology, York University.

[4] Image Credit: Dr. Oren Amitay.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Dr. Oren Amitay, Ph.D., C.Psych. on His Life and Views: Registered Psychologist and Media Consultant (Part Two) [Online].March 2018; 16(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/amitay-2.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, March 1). Dr. Oren Amitay, Ph.D., C.Psych. on His Life and Views: Registered Psychologist and Media Consultant (Part Two). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/amitay-2.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Dr. Oren Amitay, Ph.D., C.Psych. on His Life and Views: Registered Psychologist and Media Consultant (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A, March. 2018. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/amitay-2>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “Dr. Oren Amitay, Ph.D., C.Psych. on His Life and Views: Registered Psychologist and Media Consultant (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/amitay-2.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Dr. Oren Amitay, Ph.D., C.Psych. on His Life and Views: Registered Psychologist and Media Consultant (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A (March 2018). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/amitay-2.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Dr. Oren Amitay, Ph.D., C.Psych. on His Life and Views: Registered Psychologist and Media Consultant (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 16.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/amitay-2>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Dr. Oren Amitay, Ph.D., C.Psych. on His Life and Views: Registered Psychologist and Media Consultant (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 16.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/amitay-2.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Dr. Oren Amitay, Ph.D., C.Psych. on His Life and Views: Registered Psychologist and Media Consultant (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 16.A (2018):March. 2018. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/amitay-2>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Dr. Oren Amitay, Ph.D., C.Psych. on His Life and Views: Registered Psychologist and Media Consultant (Part Two) [Internet]. (2018, March; 16(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/amitay-2.

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2018-02-22

Dr. Oren Amitay, Ph.D., C.Psych. on His Life and Views: Registered Psychologist and Media Consultant (Part One)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 16.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Twelve)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: February 22, 2018

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 11,749

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

An extensive interview with Dr. Oren Amitay, Ph.D., C.Psych. He discusses: Growing up; having a monkey, first Canadian sex store own mom, and artistic bipolar father; university selection; clinical practice work and methodological specialization.

Keywords: clinical psychology, media consultant, Oren Amitay, registered psychologist.

Dr. Oren Amitay, Ph.D., C.Psych. on His Life and Views: Registered Psychologist and Media Consultant (Part One)[1],[2],[3]

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What was life like growing up – geography, culture, and language? 

Dr. Oren Amitay: I was raised speaking Hebrew, which I do not speak at all. At one-year-old, my brother, who was three at the time, came into the family by way of adoption. He did not speak Hebrew so my parents began speaking English with him and me.

At one-year-old, I suddenly had my language changed. I was spoken to only in English, like my brother. That messed things up with my language. I had to go to speech therapy after that. Obviously, I don’t remember this period of my life, but that has been told to me.

I grew up in Montreal for the first three years of my life, in an English-speaking part as opposed to French, and then my parents came here to Toronto, where I am currently, when I was 3. My mother started a business here: Canada’s first sex store, Lovecraft.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Amitay: I do remember part of the drive to Toronto. We were run into by a doctor in his car. He paid my mother some cash to help us get to Toronto and to tow our car. This is our day of moving there. I sort of remember that.

As mentioned, my mother opened Canada’s first sex store. She is a pioneer and some call her the grandmother of Canada’s sex industry. My father was an artist—a well-respected, but crazy artist, crazy, literally, because he had bipolar disorder. It was undiagnosed until he was in his 50s, likely because, when you are an artist, people expect you to “act crazy” as he did.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Amitay: That was part of his artistic temperament. We lived in a middle-class(ish) neighbourhood but were one of the poorer families there. Sex may sell, but when you’re the first sex store in Canada, it takes a while for people to adapt to that.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Amitay: I never had much money growing up. I started working at ten-years-old. I was delivering papers and have literally been working ever since. My parents paid for the roof over our heads and food, but, since ten, I have been paying my own way.

But it also depends on what you call poor. We did have a tiny home, my parents had an old beat-up car, we went on one international vacation in childhood, but my parents made the most out of it, I never felt “poor.” I knew what poor was and our financial situation didn’t hinder us that much.

Back then, the social pressure was not as bad as it is today to have all of the cool things. We never did have any of those cool things, but we did have things other kids didn’t have; my dad would make some really cool presents for Christmas or our birthdays.

Also, we were one of the coolest families in the neighbourhood, with my mother having opened Canada’s first sex store; that gives you cache as a kid, even with adults. Also, we had a monkey for a while.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Amitay: So, that is my early upbringing.

2. Jacobsen: A little bit further ahead of that. How was having a monkey, having a mother with the first Canadian sex store as well as having a bipolar artistic father in high school? Some of that I would see as bringing good social cache and other parts of it I could see not bringing so much of that.

Amitay: The monkey and stuff were in our earlier years. I think we were a pretty popular family. I will tell a side story. I always thought that our norm was “the norm”. If that is what your family is like, you don’t know any differently at the time.

I really thought our was pretty normal in most ways and I thought everyone else felt the same way. I was a little jock, I played sports all of the time and I was friends with a lot of people in the neighbourhood. Everything seemed normal.

Then, I was back in my old neighbourhood a number of years ago and I decided to check out my old house. I saw a car in the parking lot and I saw a woman was home. I was going through my wallet, pulling out my Ryerson University ID saying, “Look, I am not going to kill you. I want to come in and check out my childhood home until I was 12-years-old.”

She let me in. She wouldn’t let me come upstairs–I can understand. She said, “Come back another time, maybe.” Anyway, we were talking and I said, “When we sold our house, we sold it to this famous Canadian boxer named Shawn O’Sullivan. He won the silver medal in the 1984 Olympics and was on all these Red Lobster commercials.”

She said, “Cool, cool, I have something even cooler. I heard that some people before me,” (she wasn’t sure how many families before), “I heard the family before me was a cult…”

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Amitay: “…run by a lesbian witch.”

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Amitay: I said, “Did you hear that from a guy called ____?” It blew her mind. She was like, “How did you know, of all the people that could have said that?” I won’t get into detail about how I knew who had told her about the lesbian part and why they would have said that (it was not true), but I couldn’t understand the witch or cult leader part. So, right after I left the house, I called my mom and asked her. She was thinking and thinking and then she put the pieces together: My father, the artist, used to make candles for my mother’s store when she first opened up. The candles happened to be in the shape of penises.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Amitay: In order to air out the candles and get them to dry, he would put them on the front porch on the banister. So, apparently, we had all these penises lined up like heads on a stake. I do not remember that, but that is one of the things that was normal for us.

The woman also told me that she was Italian and the old Italian women in the neighbourhood– she said she was not exaggerating—the few Italian women there (the neighbourhood was almost all white and a few Greek families; there were only two black kids in the whole neighbourhood—one being my brother) would follow her up and down the street, telling her in Italian that the house was cursed and saying, “you have to let us exorcise the house.” She said they were literally throwing holy water at her but she wouldn’t let them do this ritual with the house they apparently believed was possessed. That was all until 12-years-old.

We moved to another neighbourhood at that time. It was very different. It was more an inner-city type neighbourhood. My brother and I were not prepared for that. We adjusted pretty quickly though. You see, when you were raised the way we were, we weren’t raised to follow trends.

As social animals, especially around 12-15 years old all you want to do is connect with other people, be a part of the group. A part of me wanted that and I was a part of a bunch of very different groups, but I never felt like I had to be in any of them. I spent a lot of time alone.

I went from group to group to group to group. No real allegiances to any group but I did have a very small number of close friends in my first two years of high school. My father by that time had been divorced from my mother for a number of years, but I still saw him pretty regularly.

Back to trends: I rarely followed any trends, aside from the heavy metal music we listened to. I did my own thing and set a number of trends—or I was the first kid (or one of the first kids) to be doing certain things. I was always the bad kid and had to go to three different schools. I pissed off the principals and teachers and many of the students. I usually had the top grades in my classes but I also had the most absences; my absences for each class were usually as high as my grades. I also got caught for doing a lot of really stupid things I cannot disclose, but fortunately, I did not get caught for most of the terrible things I did.

So, I had to go from school to school, to school; that is how I passed my high school years. I do not remember much; it was all a haze of doing stupid, self-destructive things and wasting a lot of time and definitely most of my potential. But then, after four years of screwing around, in grade 13 (we had five years of high school back then; now it’s technically four, although many kids choose to do one more year before heading off to university), I knew that if I wanted to go to university then I had to smarten up. So, I put in three months of hard work, got really good grades and got accepted into all of the universities to which I applied. Then, after that one term, I went back to old habits [Laughing], having fun basically. So, three months of hard work out of five years of high school got me into university. I’m not sure what it’s like now, but there you go.

3. Jacobsen: [Laughing] When released, so to speak, from family dynamics, especially your father, entering into university, no more monkey. No more penis candles. No more holy water to exorcise the family.

What university did you choose? Why did you choose it? What did you end up taking in it?

Amitay: First, my father was still in the picture. They were divorced, but my mom was very generous. She always had more money than he did. Her store became successful around the time of the divorce, when I was about 10 or 11, maybe a bit later.

So, my sister, who is eight years younger than I am and was adopted at three months of age, benefitted; she got all she wanted. When we moved to the new neighbourhood, I did not get a new paper route at first. Instead, I asked my mom, “Can I have an allowance?” She said, “What? Are you lazy? Get a job.” So, I got a paper route the next day and then asked her for an allowance. Her response? “You have a job and are making your own money; why do you want more from me?” That was always her mentality: Work hard and pay your own way.

I had started to say that, notwithstanding her philosophy on an allowance for me, she was very generous. On the weekends, she would leave the house and my father would stay in her house for the weekend with the kids. It was mostly for my younger sister – not my brother and me. We did our own thing. He was almost always in the picture, in a peripheral way, but he was involved with my younger sister. It is not like I didn’t have a father.

My mother also got a new husband, whom my father had known first. He introduced my father to his career at the CBC and my father introduced him to my mother.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Amitay: They have the same name and couldn’t be any different than two people or men: totally opposite ends of the spectrum. That happened when I was 10 or 11 years old, shortly after my parents broke up. It was a huge shift in my perception of people, dynamics, and so on.

Getting back to university, I had earned a scholarship to go to Western University, which is in a small town known for business. But I said, “I am not going to go to Western. I would rather stay at home in the city I know.” So, I decided to go to the University of Toronto, which is still considered one of the best universities in Canada for whatever reason.

Then, maybe a month before university started, a very, very old family friend—I have known her and her siblings since I was 3; they are the children of my mom’s former business partner—she came back from Japan and told me all these great stories about her time there. This was 1987; there was this first wave of people going to Japan then. Canada had this special arrangement with Japan that Australia, New Zealand, and the UK had, which was the “Working Holiday Visa – you can travel, study, do whatever for a year without needing to be sponsored: total freedom.

She went to Japan on this visa and lived in the countryside. I thought, “That’s cool.” So, one month before university began, I suddenly decided to go to Japan and, within maybe two months, I was there on a Working Holiday Visa days after my 19th birthday. Ironically, at first, I chose not to go to Western because I thought it was too far from all of my family, friends, and comforts in Toronto. A few months later, I was in Japan and spent the year there – a year and a few months. I was making really good money, having such a great time, and I met a young woman my age over there.

As a side note, I had to return to Canada after one year because that was how long this special visa was for; it was for six months but you could renew it for another six months while in Japan. Japanese visiting Canada apparently could return to Japan after one year and get another Working Holiday Visa for one more year (they may have been able to do it a few more times), so I was told by Japanese consulate staff that I would be able to do the same thing.

I, therefore, left all of my things in Japan—including the nice house in which I was living, my many private students, a private school at which I was working (the owners had essentially taken me in like a son) and my girlfriend—fully expecting to return in a few weeks. In Canada, however, I was told that we were, in fact, able to get only one Working Holiday Visa for Japan (and the UK, Australia and New Zealand, I believe) in our lifetime. When I told them about how I had left everything in Japan, they told me I could return on a three-month Tourist Visa to settle up my affairs over there.

I refused and explained that I had to go back for another year, if not longer. Over the next week or so, I kept speaking to different embassy representatives over the phone on a nearly daily basis, working my way up to the very top: either the Lieutenant Governor of Canada or the Governor General of Canada (I really should know the difference but I was still 19 and did not care who it was, as long as they would give me what I wanted). Each time I spoke with someone, I kept explaining how much I had fallen in love with Japan and told them that one year was not enough time to truly get to know the country and its culture, which was the whole point of the Visa program.

The Lieutenant Governor of Canada or the Governor General of Canada was apparently compelled by my reasoning and granted me the second Working Holiday Visa for Japan—the first time this had ever happened. They apparently realized that it made sense to let those who really loved Japan to stay longer under the same conditions so they eventually made it a policy for everyone.

When I arrived in Japan, however, no one in Customs would stamp my passport because they had never seen anyone receive two such visas. My Japanese was pretty good at the time so I could understand that each person they called over tried to get someone else to make the decision because no one wanted to risk getting in trouble for letting me in, just in case my second Visa was a fraud. They finally did get a senior official to let me through.

A funny side note was that I had brought a bunch of souvenirs from Canada, most of them being from my mom’s store. The airport agents were amused but suspicious of this 19-year-old foreigner who was explaining in pretty good Japanese what all of these very strange items were in a tactful manner.

Once I resumed my life in Japan, with the way everything was going I thought, “Screw university. I’ll start an English school in Japan.” My life in Japan, especially after I had met my girlfriend, was nothing like I had ever experienced. I was leading a hedonistic and pretty easy life and I lost any motivation to do the hard work I would need to do in order to live successfully in Canada.

Thank goodness, my mother was smart enough to say, “Come back to Canada and try at least one year in university; you’re too smart to waste your brain doing what you’re doing.” I resented her greatly at the time and returned to Canada prematurely in order to shut her up. Interestingly, I had similarly resented her a few years before that because I had always assumed I would take over Lovecraft since I was a kid. It was the family business. It was a cool store and I was lazy.

Most kids whose parents run their own business say at some point, “Why do I have to go to school? Why don’t I just train with you and take over the business?” That was my mindset as well. When I asked her the same question at around 17 or 18 years old—we were likely talking about my going to university—my mother looked at me and said, “No, you’re not taking over Lovecraft. I am simply a store owner; I’m in retail. You are better than that.”

So, at 20, I left Japan early to apply to the University of Toronto, which I commenced weeks before my 21st birthday. But I was really doing it only to shut my mother up. I was planning on going right back to Japan after the first year so that I could return to the easy and fun life I had been enjoying.

Now, I cannot get into the next part of the story, other than to say that my first year in university was not good for a variety of reasons. I was, in fact, doing very well, but a number of factors caused my final grades to drop from As/A+s to mostly the B range—aside from my Intro to Psychology course, in which I was able to maintain my A+.

I had no intention of continuing school and I ended up going back and forth between Canada and Japan for the next few years. In the meantime, I worked at a few restaurants in Toronto and then worked at a few language schools here. Just before I turned 22, I believe, I was hired to help set up, open and operate an English/Japanese language school and cultural centre in Toronto, across from the University of Toronto campus, as the director of the English section.

It was a big thing. It was thrilling and great, using my brain and doing all of these things I had never done before as we opened up this new business. I was speaking with lawyers, people from the embassy, lots of business people, politicians and respected members in the Japanese community. Truth be told, the business would never have got anywhere if it were not for my partner in the English section, a hard-nosed, intelligent and ambitious woman who was probably 20 or 25 years my senior. She was really the one who made everything happen but, as a 21- to 22-year-old, I relished all of the challenges with which I was tasked.

After a while, however, everything was in place and running pretty well. I essentially went from being a director and taking on so many new challenges to being an English teacher, doing the same thing I had done in Japan right after turning 19 years old and then in Toronto. Also, my status and salary dropped considerably and I could tell that the respect was no longer there. The bosses were…let’s just say that I could see the writing on the wall.

At some point during this process, I also broke up with my girlfriend, who had returned to Japan after living in Canada for a while. I subsequently met the woman who would end up becoming my wife, here in Toronto. She was also Japanese and ended up returning to Japan once her visa had expired.

I am fast forwarding through a lot but, about one week before my bride to be was about to arrive in Canada with her mother for our impending wedding in June, I started becoming very anxious. I had come to realize that I would need to set up a life here for us, as I did not want to return to Japan to teach English. Also, unlike how things had been planned previously at the language school/cultural centre, I knew I would not be able to fly back and forth between countries to live in both places. I additionally knew I could not survive on the salary I was making at the time, the job was too easy so I was getting bored, and I did not like the work environment that had developed—although I did always love the actual teaching.

I remember standing in my mom’s kitchen by myself, starting to freak out because, if I were to return to school in order to do what I knew in my heart I loved to do—become a psychologist—I would have to return to university for three years to complete the rest of my BSc, followed by one year for a Masters and three years for a Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology. Not only did I think I would be so old by that point—well into my 30s—but I also knew I could not afford not to work for those seven years because I needed to support my wife and myself. And if I tried to go to school part-time while working part-time or even fulltime, it would take many more years to complete everything. On a side note, I was unaware that, for a Masters in Clinical Psychology, it was actually two years, while a Ph.D. was at least four or five years (more typically 7 to 10 years!).

This was about a week before my marriage! My wife to be and her mother were coming over soon and I had to admit to them that I did not know what the hell I was going to do because the great company I had been working at when I first met my wife’s parents was not the same as it had been, nor was my salary. Feeling like I had no viable options and that there was no way things could go the way I would want them to go for the rest of my life, I literally worked myself up into a panic attack in the middle of my mom’s kitchen.

I had never had a panic attack in my life. It was brief and my head was swirling. I felt like I was about to pass out and I kind of collapsed on my mom’s counter. A few seconds later, I got up from the counter and thought, “What am I talking about? I can go to work full-time and school full-time. Why not?” I suddenly snapped back into the person I usually was.

The next day, I arranged to return to the U of T and, about three months later, started my second year. At this point, I was five years older than most students because of all of the time I had taken off over the past number of years.

I continued to work at the same language school/cultural centre, which was right across from the U of T campus. It was near perfect: I would work fulltime during the day and take classes at night and over the summer. I was able to finish my undergraduate degree in the three years it was supposed to take.

And unlike most students in the second year, I knew for sure that I was going to be a psychologist. As mentioned earlier, even though things had happened that messed up the grades in my other courses, I still got the A+ in Intro Psychology and loved the course.

Even some students in their fourth year are unaware that, in order to enter most Graduate Schools for Clinical Psychology, you need to take a very difficult exam called the GRE or the Graduate Record Examination. Conversely, before even beginning the second year, I had already purchased materials to prepare for the GRE a few years later because, again, I knew that I was going all the way to get my Ph.D. and become a registered psychologist.

Fast forward to a few weeks before I graduated from the U of T, the language school/cultural centre fired me without any notice. They did it in such a cold manner, even though I had helped the various owners and their families essentially settle in Canada. In fact, I should have not been surprised because they had done something similar to the senior partner I had mentioned before, and she was really the one who helped everyone be able to come to and reside in Canada.

Besides, to be honest, I had been screwing around at work. I was so focused on school that I was doing the minimum at work.

Unfortunately, they fired me within maybe a few weeks of not only my getting into a serious bike accident, which messed up the end of my school year, but also my experiencing two of the biggest setbacks one can experience in academia—one of which was due to the accident. I got depressed for about a week or two and then snapped out of it. I elaborate on this a bit later.

I ended up getting into graduate school and, by the second year of my Masters, I began teaching at the university and was also doing some clinical work. Before and after that, I also was paid to be a Teaching Assistant and Research Assistant, so all throughout my undergraduate, Masters, and Ph.D., I was working fulltime in addition to my actual academic work.

The good thing about this was that, unlike so many of my colleagues who felt they had put their “real lives” on hold for 4 to 15 years while they went to school, I never felt that way. Although some of my schoolmates would work over the summer or do a bit of part-time work in addition to their work as a Teaching Assistant or Research Assistant, they still always felt like a stagnating student or they did not feel as if they had really entered “the real world” yet. This was particularly true for students who went straight from high school to university and then to grad school.

On the contrary, I treated school as a second career, while my teaching and clinical work were my other careers. Unlike most graduate students,  I was never anxiously wondering, “When is school going to end?” Most of my schoolmates felt their careers would not begin until they graduated. For me, getting my Ph.D. would simply enable me to do more in my chosen fields and to make more money in the careers I had already begun to forge several years before.

In addition to learning that sleep really is over-rated, leading dual career/academic lives all throughout my undergrad and graduate degrees taught me about resilience, hardiness, responsibility and so much more. But that was the kind of work ethic and determination I had learned from each of my parents. That was how I became a psychologist.

4. Jacobsen: Also, you are also referencing the upbringing with the [Laughing] penis candles and the mother being a store owner, where the parents have a strong influence on you. That is for Masters and Ph.D. What about clinical practice work? What particular methodologies did you specialize in?

Amitay: I did my Masters and Ph.D. at York University, which has the biggest Clinical Psychology program in Canada with many professors who are well-respected and renowned internationally. It focused mostly on human-centered or client-centered therapy. There was one outright CBT Professor and one Psychodynamic Professor (and a few other orientations) when I was there, but mostly they were more Humanistic or Rogerian, as well as emotion-focused and process experiential.

The thing is, the program was mostly about academics and research, and some of the courses were garbage or entirely irrelevant to becoming a registered psychologist. Such courses, as well as other aspects of the program, basically lengthened our time in it. I said, “This is ridiculous. What are we doing here?”

As an undergraduate, being five years older than most students, I was quite arrogant. I was also not that much younger than some of my professors and was even older than some of my TAs. I was thinking that I had made more money than them when I was still a teenager and in my early 20s, and had lived a far more interesting life than most of them had. I thought that I knew more than they do and that made me, very, very arrogant. I had a big mouth, had a bad attitude and caused a lot of trouble.

I became well-known around the department, but not for the right reasons—although when I started getting 100% on exams, including short-answer and essay-based tests, some TAs I knew told me that others had been mentioning that. I ended up becoming pretty close with some TAs and professors. Whenever there was some luncheon or similar informal get-together for the professors and/or graduate students, I would walk in as if I belonged there, hang out and avail myself of the free food and drinks—usually to excess. I would then head off to class in the right frame of mind; it made the lectures far more tolerable.

One time, during the first or second class of the term, I stayed too long at one of these functions so I brought a glass of wine to the professor as a peace offering; she was relatively young and considered one of the “hottest” profs in the department. I walked in, handed it to her casually and proceeded to sit down as if it was no big deal. She asked my name and we ended up getting to know each other a bit better after that.

By hanging out with the TAs and professors, I could hear what was going on in the department and get a better sense of how things operate. However, I was still a troublemaker and I had a couple of professors say to me every once in a while, “What the hell did you do this time?” One of them told me that, when he was in the faculty lounge and my name would come up, he could see some of his colleagues literally twitch. He would apparently mention my name occasionally just to get a rise out of them!

I say all of this because, when I went to York, I was determined to not repeat the same crap I had been doing for so long. This was because, as alluded to earlier, I experienced several “crises” all around the same time: I was fired from the job that was supporting me and my wife (who was also working at a low-paying job at the time) and, shortly before that, I had been hit by a car a few weeks prior to completing my final undergrad term. The accident prevented me from being able to complete some work on time and I was too proud to ask for an extension.

Also, because I was so determined to get all my work done in time, while still working full-time (I took only one day off after the accident and had checked myself out of hospital against doctor’s orders that day so I could get to class, mangled bike and all), I was popping painkillers like candy. I went into shock and/or had a full-blown panic attack in the middle of one of my classes when I realized I had finished my month’s supply of narcotics within a few days. I ended up back in the hospital that night, experiencing wave after wave of involuntary “shock” or panic.

On a side note, I had done something similar a few years prior: I rolled my ankle playing basketball at the university and, after being taken to hospital, hobbled to class in the middle of a snowstorm with my crutches because it was the last class before the exam and I did not want to risk missing important information. Being very frugal, I took the subway home after class instead of a taxi and, a little after arriving home, I went into shock due to the intense strain stemming from my stupid determination and poor judgment.

Returning to the other story, my failure to ask for any extensions following the accident, together with my subsequent “shock” or panic-induced setback, ended up causing me to screw up my thesis. I was consequently one of the few students who did not get an A on it—I think it ended up being a B+. I had also got a B on a full-year lab/research course due to some conflicts with the professor and my fellow students, and these were the two most important courses prospective Grad School professors/supervisors would look at.

Getting relatively poor grades in these two full-year courses (as opposed to most courses in which I was getting As and A+s that were half-year and thus contributed less to my GPA) was critical because of the next crisis to befall me at that time: I had failed to get accepted into Grad School for a variety of reasons—most of which were my fault, although I did get into a Top-10 program in the US, but the professor/supervisor ended up leaving after she accepted me and thus my offer was nullified.

Now, I had no grad school, no job and, if I were to try once again to get into grad school, my application would be hindered by a GPA that was lower than it had been when I failed to get accepted the first time; because of the timing, applications to grad school are usually based on grades up until the penultimate term, but now I would have to include results from my final term, which included my inadequate thesis performance as well as other grades that fell somewhat after the accident. Plus, my plans had been delayed by at least a year and, in the state of despair into which I was falling, I was distorting reality severely and felt as though that one-year delay would cause me to be an old man by the time I finally became a psychologist—assuming I could even get into grad school in the first place!

In short, I really did not see any hope for my future at that point. As alluded to earlier, this is when I went into a depression for about a week or so. I was not used to failing and now I was facing a number of the biggest failures someone in my position could confront, all at the same time.

I ended up going to therapy, but for dubious reasons (I won’t get into that). In the end, however, I experienced a moment of significant self-reflection and insight in spite of my psychologist—or, more accurately, to spite that psychologist. In short, the entire experience really humbled me and greatly changed my perspective on myself and my life.

I picked myself up, took complete responsibility for a number of problems I had experienced—including those for which I had mistakenly believed I had already taken full ownership—and set about planning to get into grad school for the next year. I worked on improving myself in other areas of my life and, one year later, began graduate school on the same day my first daughter was born.

I should point out that my reputation at the U of T almost ruined my career aspirations, as I learned that, when prospective graduate supervisors/professors would contact my former professors, they would warn them about me. I found out that at least one professor who had never even taught me had similarly advised against taking me on as a grad student!

Fortunately, one of my former professors, with whom I had become quite close, really stuck up for me and convinced my supervisor at York to take me on. She took a chance with me and, I believe, I did not make her life too much more difficult than any other grad student.

Interestingly, after my Free Speech talk with Drs. Jordan Peterson and Gad Saad on November 11, 2017, I met my former supervisor for the first time in about 10 years. She was there as Dr. Peterson’s personal guest because they have been friends for many years; she also brought him onto my dissertation committee as an “external reviewer” as part of my graduation requirements.

In any event, when I began graduate school, my recent life-altering experience with profound self-reflection and self-improvement caused me to make a determined effort not to keep doing things as I had always done before. I was committed to being a “good boy” and not causing any shit. I joined a number of committees and got very involved with the department.

I really immersed myself in such things and contributed to some major changes in the department. And, as part of my devotion to becoming a better person, I focused many of my efforts on doing things that would help others and not myself. In addition to learning how things work in the department, I learned what most “do-gooders” learn: The vast majority of people are happy to sit back and let a tiny number of people do all of the hard work that ends up benefiting those who do nothing to help out.

I should add that one reason I first got involved in all of these things was that, by chance, I had been set up with a student who was as ambitious as I was. She was one or two years ahead of me and, as part of our orientation, she and others in her grade would each be paired up with one incoming student. At this point, she had been doing so much for the program as a student committee member that she had finally had enough. She asked if I wanted to take over one or two of her responsibilities and I took them all over, as well as several other positions.

If I had kept my mouth shut, my life would have been much easier and simpler. But it would have also been far more boring and I don’t do boring. Knowing me, I would have ended up filling my spare time with my typical trouble-making antics.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Amitay: In any event, I soon realized that York’s program was not very efficient: We were taking too many courses—some of which were literally irrelevant or useless—in lieu of clinical training and experience. The department asked how I knew that my complaints were valid. They challenged me to prove my assertions so I contacted the dozen or so Canadian Clinical Psychology programs at the time that were accredited by both the American Psychological Association and Canadian Psychological Association, as York was.

I had been on the committee that had recently got the APA accreditation for York so I knew about various requirements and expectations. After compiling all of the data on each of the aforementioned comparable graduate programs—which had so many variations in their course load, training, internships, research requirements, average duration, etc—I showed conclusively that we had too many courses and not enough training.

While I was at it, I also showed that one research paper requirement literally had no meaning or value for most students. Also, it had been designed in such a way that there was no consistency among students’ experiences: Some had supervisors who did not care about it and gave them an A for doing virtually nothing, while others had to work their asses off doing something that did not benefit them at all.

I pushed and got the department to change that paper so that, in fact, most students would derive some benefit and would have to do approximately the same amount of work. In short, I got the department to implement parameters that would help the student turn this requirement into a brief paper that could get published and would thus help them get funding, get into future internships or post-doc positions and/or advance their eventual careers.

In the process, however, I really pissed off a number of professors who did not like that a student was pushing for all of these changes. I believe a few of the professors got their revenge by giving me lower grades than I deserved. They also decided to implement one of their new policies that they knew was my personal favourite—eliminating one of the courses we needed to take—literally the day my own useless course was finished; I know this was deliberate because of the interaction I had with the professor who told me about this change. Oh well, that’s what you get.

By the way, when I finally resigned all of my committee positions, I recruited a colleague to take over, just as my “buddy” had done with me a few years prior. However, I fully warned her about the problems she would face and she was still determined to do it. She knew how much I had been doing so she got two more students to split all of the duties I had been handling.

Sure enough, each of these three students found themselves having to deal with “passive-aggressive” and/or retaliatory B.S. from some of the professors and administrators with whom they were working on the various committees. Unfortunately, they did not have the kind of thick skin I have and I believe two of them ended up dropping out of the program (I know one did for sure and she told me that the BS I just mentioned was a huge factor). I think the third student gave up on her committees after a pretty short time.

One of the points of this digression was that, although York did end up adopting most of the changes I pushed—especially with respect to clinical training—they did so after it was too late for me to benefit from these changes. In other words, I received very little actual training from York with respect to psychotherapy and psychological assessments.

Jacobsen: Right.

Amitay: So, I had to get it from the outside. Some of it was through practical experience, such as the Employee Assistance Program, which is a program paid for by certain employers. It is like limited private insurance for mental health. (It was originally established to help employees dealing with addictions and then they broadened it.) That was my first “clinical” job. For a graduate student making $65/hr, not bad!

We are talking 20 years ago. I had a niche market as I was apparently the only one in Canada at the time who was doing therapy in Japanese, according to the EAP provider.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Amitay: These Japanese clients who came to Canada had a hard time adjusting. I was doing therapy with them through this EAP. I told this to my department at York when we were discussing what I was doing.

They said, “You can’t do that. You are only a first-year Master’s student. You are not a psychologist. You do not have malpractice insurance. If someone kills themselves, the company will throw you under the bus because you are a private contractor for them.” And the fact is that one of the people I had dealt with through this EAP had attempted suicide.

I could have lost everything. I had no idea. So, that was my first “clinical” experience. York stopped me after I had done this for about a year. They did it for my own benefit and said that they would never allow another student to do that by tightening the rules.

In fact, there have been a number of times in undergraduate and graduate school where they have changed some policies because of something I had done and the outcome was not necessarily great. But how do you know if you don’t do it?

But the point is that I ended up getting most of my training outside of the university through practica, internships and other opportunities I sought out for myself. One exception to this was Emotion Focused Therapy (EFT) with Dr. Les Greenberg, who came up with this very powerful therapy with Drs. Rice and Elliott, and he taught it in one of the courses at York. He also ran workshops where he was training therapists on how to do EFT; I volunteered to facilitate several such workshops with him and learned more about EFT this way.

I was constantly looking for any opportunity for more training and more experience. Then, the most important experience for me, which ended up changing my whole life, occurred when I did one of my internships at a hospital. A friend of mine, one of my lab mates at York, had done this internship previously and suggested that I apply to do it as well.

I was accepted and began working and training with my supervisor, Dr. Szabo, at the hospital. However, Dr. Amin, the head of the psychology department (and also Dr. Szabo’s former mentor), liked what he saw of me and ended up “poaching” me. I ended up doing a lot of side work for Dr. Amin,  who got me into doing Parenting Capacity Assessments (PCAs) for the Courts and many different Child Protection Services across Ontario. I had never planned to do this kind of work, as my goal was simply to do psychotherapy.

At the time, Dr. Amin was probably doing the most PCAs in Canada and had been doing them for many, many years. I assisted him in doing many of these types of assessments and got so much extensive training in assessments. Dr. Amin ended up becoming my supervisor and mentor for subsequent internships for York and then for my registration with our College of Psychologists of Ontario not only for assessments but also for psychotherapy. Dr. Szabo was also my secondary supervisor during this training.

When I got my full registration, I ended up doing PCAs on my own. I basically called all of these Children’s Aid organizations—with Dr. Amin’s blessings—and said, “Just so you know, you can contact me directly now if you would like me to complete any PCAs for you.” From what I have heard from those in the know, I ended up doing the most PCAs in Canada per year and may still be doing more than any individual psychologist.

I am so grateful because virtually anyone can be a therapist. Although I have many patients, with the way things are going in Canada with respect to psychologists and psychotherapists, I believe many psychologists who do only psychotherapy are going to see a significant decrease in their business in the near future. That is, even though psychotherapists have far less education, training, knowledge and expertise than psychologists, they have recently been gaining far more rights, abilities and standing by our government.

If I did only therapy, I would be just one therapist in a giant pool. But conducting Parenting Capacity Assessments—and now Custody and Access Assessments—I am part of a tiny select/specialized group of psychologists doing such niche work.

One reason very few people do these types of assessments is that it is kind of like forensic work and often requires us to give expert testimony in Court; this intimidates many psychologists. What intimidates and deters psychologists even more is that PCAs and especially Custody and Access Assessments draw the most false complaints to our College. I won’t get into that nightmare other than to say that defending oneself against such false allegations can be a very anxiety-provoking and/or extremely time-consuming process. I have been through a number of such false complaints and they really can take their toll; I will leave it at that.

Another reason people do not like doing PCAs can be elucidated in the following story that I tell my students. When Dr. Amin first hired me to help him conduct PCAs, he wanted to ease me into the process because he knew how terrible some of the cases could be; we have both had some truly horrific cases and have seen the worst that humans are capable of doing. We also each have children, so these things can potentially strike home.

Knowing all this, Dr. Amin decided to make my very first case relatively easy—which rarely happens, since the Courts or child protection agencies don’t need to bring us in for “easy” cases. In any event, he happened to have received such a case and told me, “This is an easy one: It involves a grandmother who has agreed to take care of her granddaughter and Children’s Aid completely supports this plan.”

I thought, “Great!” I opened the case file and thought to myself, “Either Dr. Amin is one sick bastard if he thinks this is an “easy” case, or he has a really sick sense of humour.” I am saying this to you with a smile, but I have to follow it up with the most unfunny thing ever.

You see, the reason the grandmother was involved was that her daughter had allowed a boyfriend to beat the living shit out of her child. My mentor did not know the specifics of the case. He is definitely not an asshole; he is a very good, compassionate and generous man.

However, as soon as I opened the file, the first thing I saw was a color photograph of the child in the hospital – bruises up and down, near death. This was my very first case; what an introduction into the world of PCAs.

Since that first case, I have conducted over 450 PCAs. Sadly, there is a great demand for such assessments and, like I said, it is a niche market. It is a terrible field in which to work but I try to do some good.

In addition to PCAs and Custody and Access Assessments, I see about 15-25, sometimes 30, patients a week. I never have to advertise because my patients come through word of mouth and from seeing or hearing me in the media, as I give about 4 or 5 interviews per week. It started off as a few here or there about 14 years ago, then eventually increased to about one per week and I kept getting more and more interview requests on literally any topic you can imagine.

Although some might consider me lucky for the way things have turned out for me, nothing has ever just fallen into my lap. Rather, whenever I see an opportunity, I go for it and do my very best to prove that I am the right person for the job, whatever it is. Nobody has ever simply given me anything or done me any favours just for the sake of being nice to me.

As another example, when I first decided to try teaching at Ryerson 16 years ago, the day I called to inquire into how I should go about applying for any positions that might be available, I was told that there were no positions available in the Psychology department at the time and there would not likely be any in the foreseeable future. However, I was told to try the Continuing Education department. I called them up and found out that that very day was the last day to apply for teaching positions that term. I can’t remember what I was doing that day but I pushed everything aside, found out what courses were being advertised, got my crap together and put together a CV and application package over the next few hours. I rushed down to the university, delivered my last-minute application package right before they closed and, weeks later, was told that I would be teaching Introduction to Psychology.

Over the next eight years, I would always teach at Ryerson and one other university in Toronto or just outside the city. This caused me to teach four to six courses four terms/times each year—once I taught seven courses and twice I taught eight! I am pretty sure that was a record. Plus, I was still seeing many patients each week and conducting numerous assessments.

I thought, “I am going to have a story to talk about one day. If I can make it through this term…”

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Amitay: “…I will have a story to tell.” It is not comparing myself to other people. It is comparing myself to what I had done before. It is having a healthy mindset. Instead of feeling overwhelmed, I always ask myself, “Okay, how am I going to make this happen?”

One of the times I taught eight classes was when I was working 100 hours per week. I was teaching 9am-12pm at Ryerson; 12-6pm at U of T Scarborough, which was about a 20-30 minute drive; and finally 6-9pm back at Ryerson. Those numbers obviously don’t add up [Laughing]. However, I worked things out with my schedule to make all of that happen without my students losing any class time or quality of teaching.

Those are the kinds of challenges I live for. I love knowing that I am able to do such things and do them well. This is the way I see life: challenges. Otherwise, you stagnate and get bored. You atrophy.

However, in 2011 I decided it was too hectic to try to balance working at two different universities. I stopped teaching elsewhere and have continued to teach two courses every term at Ryerson, four times each year: I teach Psychology of Human Sexuality every term and Psychological Disorders (which is often called Abnormal Psychology) and Clinical Psychology in alternating terms.

And, because I am a workaholic, I end up filling up a lot of my “free time” with social media stuff. Making my podcasts and engaging with viewers on Youtube and Twitter could, in fact, be a fulltime career if I had any business or marketing acumen. But I do all of that simply because it is the right thing to do; I make absolutely no money off of it.

Returning to Ryerson, I do love teaching. I also appreciate that much of what I learn in order to teach can also inform my clinical practice, and vice versa.

I have had opportunities at different universities to work full-time and aim for a tenure-track position. However, doing that requires a lot of research, which means that you are not really teaching much. I have always enjoyed the teaching part and not so much the research part. And I really do not like having to “beg” for money via research grant proposals all of the time and having to prove my worth to a department by showing them that I know how to play the game properly. That is not my thing at all.

Teaching, however, is definitely my passion. And because I love it so much, my students see me at my absolute best. I am on fire in class. To be sure, there have been some days that I am sick or sleep deprived. I will stagger into class, coughing and barely able to speak at first. But once I get rolling, I get energy from the students and I can get right into the lesson with full vigour.

And it does not matter if I have taught something before. I always try to keep it fresh for both myself and for the students. They can see that. The funny thing is, I will sometimes stand there in the middle of class and literally pat myself on the back and say something like, “I have taught the same thing 60 times, and this is the first time I made that joke spontaneously about this material.” I do not plan those kinds of things. I want such comments or jokes to manifest at the moment. And I will always try to bring recent events to the lesson plan so that, even if I have taught it many times before, it will be different in important ways because new examples are always available.

Also, my students know that, no matter what I am teaching, from the very beginning I have always taught critical thinking. I have a number of ways I do this organically in the lecture that really drives home the need to be able to think sceptically and critically, and to keep an open mind to everything.

I also show students that they are able to hear and discuss extremely controversial and uncomfortable materials from a logical, rational, or fact/evidence-based perspective without letting their emotions overwhelm them. In my Human Sexuality class, within the first 20-30 minutes of the very first lecture of the term, I have discussed rape, pedophilia, domestic violence, feminism, gender wage myths, real and false allegations of sexual assault or incest, masturbation, sexual orientation and more. And you know what I never include? “Trigger Warnings.”

I do have to be careful because I have no tenure and no job security. I am merely a sessional lecturer on contract. So, I still have to apply to teach three times per year, although I always get the courses I want because I have so much seniority. But I still have to apply.

I have forgotten to apply three times over the past 17 years because sometimes I am so busy with deadlines for Court reports or some other work-related duties, and the application period occurs near the end of the term, when I am trying to wrap everything up and get all of my grades in. Fortunately, my immediate superior is a good person and, each time I forgot to apply he gave me two other courses to teach. Although these are usually courses I have taught previously, once I was offered the chance to teach Positive Psychology and once it was an Addictions course.

Teaching a new course can be very demanding because you have to create the syllabus, lecture materials, powerpoints and exams from scratch. And, as a sessional instructor, I do not get paid for this prep time, only the actual class time. So, for each of these two new courses, I knew I was going to invest so much time and effort into something that I would most likely never teach again, since I always teach the three courses I mentioned (each instructor usually gets to teach only two courses per term).

Fortunately, I ended up teaching Positive Psychology two more times, so I was able to use the materials again, with some tweaking/modifications. Moreover, when I was preparing for the course, I learned about another psychological orientation/therapy—Acceptance and Commitment to Change Therapy (ACT)—which I pursued and incorporated it into my clinical practice as my eighth one.

As for the Addictions course, although I never taught it again, it did provide me with a lot of information that I have been able to use in my practice. It gives me another area of knowledge that is very relevant to my work with many patients.

In other words, instead of complaining about all of the work I had to do for each course, I looked at the positive aspects of my decisions. This is the kind of healthy mindset that enables me to take on new challenges: I look for ways in which doing these things will benefit me instead of worrying about the potential negatives. However, I do engage in a mental calculation to make sure that the potential benefits will outweigh the costs, otherwise I am prone to making bad decisions for the wrong reasons.

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Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Registered Psychologist and Media Consultant.

[2] Individual Publication Date: February 22, 2018 at www.in-sightjournal.com/amitay; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2018 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] B.Sc. (Honours), Psychology, Toronto; Ph.D., Clinical Psychology, York University.

[4] Image Credit: Dr. Oren Amitay.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Dr. Oren Amitay, Ph.D., C.Psych. on His Life and Views: Registered Psychologist and Media Consultant (Part One) [Online].February 2018; 16(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/amitay.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, February 22). Dr. Oren Amitay, Ph.D., C.Psych. on His Life and Views: Registered Psychologist and Media Consultant (Part One). Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/amitay.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Dr. Oren Amitay, Ph.D., C.Psych. on His Life and Views: Registered Psychologist and Media Consultant (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A, February. 2018. <www.in-sightjournal.com/amitay>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “Dr. Oren Amitay, Ph.D., C.Psych. on His Life and Views: Registered Psychologist and Media Consultant (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/amitay.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Dr. Oren Amitay, Ph.D., C.Psych. on His Life and Views: Registered Psychologist and Media Consultant (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A (February 2018). www.in-sightjournal.com/amitay.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Dr. Oren Amitay, Ph.D., C.Psych. on His Life and Views: Registered Psychologist and Media Consultant (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 16.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/amitay>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Dr. Oren Amitay, Ph.D., C.Psych. on His Life and Views: Registered Psychologist and Media Consultant (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 16.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/amitay.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Dr. Oren Amitay, Ph.D., C.Psych. on His Life and Views: Registered Psychologist and Media Consultant (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 16.A (2018):February. 2018. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/amitay>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Dr. Oren Amitay, Ph.D., C.Psych. on His Life and Views: Registered Psychologist and Media Consultant (Part One) [Internet]. (2018, February; 16(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/amitay.

License and Copyright

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In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2018-02-15

Conversation with Dr. Darrel Ray on Christian Fundamentalism and Sex: Founder, Recovering from Religion

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 16.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Twelve)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: February 15, 2018

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 8,233

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

An Interview with Dr. Darrel Ray. He discusses: Christian fundamentalist upbringing; Recovering from Religion; individual factors in recovery; Richard Dawkins’ terminology of religion as a virus; unexpected allies; secular therapists; sex addiction; most bizarre sexual taboo; criteria for asexual; universal attractive characteristics; guilt around sex; unsupported and non-scientific ideas around sex; and admirable aspects of religion.

Keywords: Christian fundamentalism, Darrel Ray, religion, sex.

Conversation with Dr. Darrel Ray on Christian Fundamentalism and Sex: Founder, Recovering from Religion[1],[2],[3]

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: You grew up in a Christian fundamentalist family in Wichita, Kansas. From a youth perspective, what’s running through a child’s mind as they’re growing up in a fundamentalist household that is Christian?

Dr. Darrel Ray: If you think about it, as you’re growing up, you’re being taught a whole lot of things. One is which language you’re speaking or you’re going to speak. There aren’t any children that sit around thinking, I wonder why mom isn’t teaching me Chinese, or why am I not learning Zulu.

Jacobsen: [Laughing] That’s right.

Ray: It is. At the same time, you’re learning the language. You’re also learning a lot of other things. You’re learning how to have polite manners at the table. You’re learning how to treat other people, your brothers, and sisters, and you’re learning what the religion is.

To the child, language acquisition and religious acquisition are happening at the same time and you’re not going to question why am I not being taught Catholicism or Buddhism. You accept whatever it was.

That’s what’s going on in a child’s mind. Here’s the deal, in a hunter-gatherer society, and we’re only separated by only a few thousand years from being hunter-gatherers. In a hunter-gatherer society, the child is genetically and biologically built to listen to their parents.

Because if there’s a lion out there that could eat you, you better listen to your parents. So, the parents say, “Don’t go into that bush over there, because there are tigers and lions that might eat you.” “Mom, dad, that sounds like a good idea.”

Then the mom and dad turn around the next day and say, “Don’t go into that over bush over there because there are demons that will send you to hell.” How does a child know the difference?

Jacobsen: They don’t.

Ray: They can’t; they can’t know the difference, right. So, by age 10, you’ve programmed all those kinds of ideas and you have no ability to critically analyze those ideas. Once they’re embedded in your brain, they’re embedded deeply and probably permanently.

So, notions like hell, the notion of hell, once it gets embedded, can scare the hell, literally, out of a 10-year-old. Think of a 10-year-old that goes to a Pentecostal meeting, somewhere where they’re shown the fear of God and talking about how terrible hell is.

That gets deeply embedded into your brain and can easily trigger responses that are as if the lion is about ready to eat you. Your brain is going to respond to that threat, whether it’s the threat of hell or the threat of a lion eating you, and buried somewhere always.

So, I see as a child grows up. One of the most interesting things is tragic. I work, we work, with a lot of people who are dealing with the fear of hell. They are atheists, they’re secularists, they’re atheists or agnostics, but they were raised in families like the Westboro Baptist Church that are fearful of hell.

The poor people, now, they’re an adult, they’re 30, 40, 50-years-old They’re still scared of hell, waking up with cold sweats at night, they have nightmares. We know now that’s probably related to post-traumatic stress disorder.

In fact, Dr. Marley Rinella, pioneer psychologist over in the Bay Area renamed it religious trauma syndrome because she could see from her work as a psychologist that post-traumatic stress of somebody coming back from Afghanistan in a war zone looks a lot like the stress people had being raised in religious environments from early on and then terrorized with things like fear of hell. That’s a long answer to a short question.

Jacobsen: That’s an important answer to a deep question.

Ray: That’s what you’re looking for, I’m happy to help you to give it to you.

2. Jacobsen: I appreciate that. You have the relevant qualifications – anthropology, sociology, education, clinical psychology. These provide a framework from which to speak authoritatively on these issues. So, I appreciate that.

So, with Recovering from Religion, for those that don’t know, what is the elevator pitch of what it is?

Ray: We help people deal with the consequences and trauma of leaving religion. That’s much of our mission. So, somebody 40-years-old with 2 children, now recognizes that everything they were taught is a bunch of phooey, what do they do now?

They raise their kids religious; their wife or husband is still religious. Who do they turn to? They certainly can’t go talk to their minister. I started this in 2009, Recovering from Religion; we’ve now grown phenomenally.

We now have a hotline somebody can call and say exactly what they feel. We get those kinds of calls all the time. Their kids are religious, but they’re an atheist and they raised their kids religious with their religious husband or wife. Or their wife has become an agnostic, but they’re still a Catholic.

We get calls from religious people. We get parents. Parents, for example, will call us and say we love our child, they say they’re an atheist now and we found you on the internet. We want to respect our child, but we don’t know how to deal with it because we’re Catholic or we’re Jewish or we’re Buddhist.

It could be anything. So, that’s our goal. We have small group meetings all over the world. People meet about once a month, talk to each other about recovering issues. We have many other programs.

But the short answer is we’re helping people deal with the trauma and consequences of leaving religion.

3. Jacobsen: What personality factors or personality variables, and individual factors, play into the rate at which someone can recover? So, for example, the level of general intelligence, or the degree to which someone can adhere strongly to engaging in executive function behavior? Or having “grit,” what are some variables there?

Ray: I write extensively about that in my book, The God Virus. It has little to do with intelligence. That’s not to say intelligence doesn’t have something to do with it. I’m not going to focus on it right now. There are five major personality components in human beings. Four of those components do not correlate at all with religiosity.

The fifth one, however, does; the fifth one is the only one I’m interested in with respect to this research to answer your question. It’s called openness, curiosity, and openness to new experience. Here’s what the research seems to show.

The less curious you are, the less open you are to new experience, the more likely you are to be in check with religious notions of any kind. It’s much easier for parents. Let’s be serious here, most religion you get from your parents.

That’s where most everybody gets it. You’re most likely to be infected, more easily infected, if you have a low level of curiosity and a low level of openness to new experience. On the other hand, children being raised by parents who are religious, but the child is high and open to experiencing curiosity is going to be that darn child that asks why mommy, why daddy, all the time.

It irritates the hell out of the parents. It’s hard to infect that kid or keep them infected because they keep asking the wrong questions. The other child, the one that’s not open to new experience and not particularly curious; they don’t ask those questions in the first place.

And I’ll tell you, I have three examples of that in my own family. I can see it. Sometimes, it’s amazing how those two things happen. So, what you get is a person that gets older and then realizes, starts asking tougher questions, or getting answers to some of those questions.

Then they start moving away from religion; they were still infected at that pre-critical age, prior to 10-years-old. That’s before the questions could even be asked. So, while their logic says one thing, their emotions say another thing.

So, generally, people go through a phase, generally, two to three years, of having to deal with that dissonance, that conflict between my emotions say, “There is a hell,” or my emotions say, “That God is watching me all the time.”

My logic says, “That’s crazy.” So, it takes quite a while, like I said, maybe two or three years, maybe longer – and sometimes a lifetime. Like I said, I got people dealing with it; they’ve been nonreligious for decades.

So, I don’t think there’s a formula. At least Recovering from Religion, we take people where they are. Obviously, we don’t give them personality tests or IQ tests or anything. Where IQ comes into effect is obviously, a lower IQ, the less curious and openness, open to new experiences, that has some correlation to it.

It’s not perfect, but intelligent people are more open to new experience, more curious. That’s why you get the phenomena that the more educated you are, the less religious you’re likely to be.

And that 94 percent of all the top scientists in the United States are atheists, pretty much. That thing is what you see and that’s where the correlation with intelligence comes in.

4. Jacobsen: Also, if I recall correctly, but I might be misremembering, the data on non-belief in any deity by professional academics goes up especially if you go to natural sciences or fields that require higher cognitive demands in general. So, that’s also a factor as well.

Ray: Absolutely.

Jacobsen: You use the term “infected” when talking about children. Does that come from Richard Dawkins’ terminology of religion as a virus?

Ray: In my book The God Virus, it was largely inspired by an essay he wrote back in 1989 called “Viruses of the Mind” or something like that. It’s this notion has been around since he wrote his book The Selfish Gene back in 1976.

What I noticed was that Dawkins is a biologist and Daniel Dennett is a philosopher and Sam Harris is a neuroscientist, nobody is a psychologist. Nobody is looking at it from an anthropological, sociological, and psychological point of view.

So, I basically stole Dawkins’s notion of a mind virus and applied it specifically to religion. He quite approved of it. I met Richard several times and he likes the book, The God Virus, likes its specific application, from a psychological perspective.

I give Dawkins full credit there; although, he didn’t come anywhere near what I did on the psychological side, anthropological and sociological sides too.

5. Jacobsen: With Recovering from Religion, and something we haven’t mentioned, the Secular Therapy Project, which seems self-descriptive. Who have been unexpected allies that are religious—organizations, individuals, researchers, and so on?

Ray: There are two questions there. Let me address Recovering from Religion. We have seen that there are allies out there. We are appreciative of Unitarians, for example. While they may be somewhat religious, they can be secular too.

Secular Jewish organizations have been allies of ours. Other groups like the Satanic Temple, Flying Spaghetti Monster. People like that love us. Those are all groups that we have some alliances with, that we cooperate with.

Also, the LGBTQ community is one big ally of ours. It might be the other way around. We’re more an ally of theirs than they are of ours, often times. So, many people in the LGBTQ community have been disfellowshipped or thrown out or in some way ostracized by their families, by their community, by the place they were raised in.

And as a result, they ask questions. They start asking questions—you don’t know; this is funny. How many music directors and choir directors that who are now in some way, shape, or form affiliated with? Why? Because they’re gay!

They were gay. They loved music. So, they were the choir director in their church for 15 years until they got caught or they outed themselves. They confessed and got thrown out of a church. Now, they’re looking for a community, looking for a place to land. We’re one of the places that’s easy to find on the internet.

So, I would say probably top of the list is LGBTQ. They love us; we love them. There’s still a lot of religious gays. There’s a lot of religious LGBTQ people out there. It makes no sense to me why you would want to go to a church that hates you, but there are still gay Catholics.

It’s amazing to me that they still do that. But, when they find us, they’re on their way out, or somebody outed them and now they’re searching for answers to questions.

Scott, the beautiful thing is that in 2009 there was no organization to call.

The only person you’d probably talk to maybe were psychologists if you could find one. And you certainly wouldn’t talk to your minister. Now, there are people to talk to around, and here. There is an enormous resource page on our website. Enormous.

You go to our resource page. We have hundreds and hundreds of links and resources for people in every walk of life and from every religion. We’re expanding rapidly as we speak. That’s the first answer.

The second part of the question is the Secular Therapy Project. That’s a different piece there and a different question. I don’t see the alliance with everything being too much a part of that, except that those groups, once they become aware of us, then they realize there’s a need.

There are real people out there, real psychologists, real social workers who still believe you can pray the gay away. There are psychologists who went to seminary and learned that homosexuality is a sin, being a lesbian is a sin, being trans in a sin, and so on.

They do believe this. They practice it. In their practice, they still use Jesus to heal people. It is crazy. It is dangerous. Because if a person comes into your practice as a psychologist and says, “I’m depressed.” I say, “You’re depressed because you’re an atheist. You’re depressed because you turned your back on Jesus.”

Wow, that certainly doesn’t help the depression. That’s what we faced, and I faced that in 2010 and 2011. After my book The God Virus came out, people who never heard of me realized I’m a psychologist, from reading my book.

They said, ‘I’m going to contact you, find out, and find a good psychologist.” So, I got countless calls and emails and texts from people saying, “Help me find a good psychologist, the last psychologist I went to send me back to church, or the last psychologist I went to said I need to get Jesus or I need to – part of my problem is that I’m an atheist now.”

So, I said, “I’ll help you.” So, I start looking, and Scott, it’s impossible to find a secular therapist by searching on the internet. It’s impossible. The reason I say that is no therapist admits they’re an atheist.

No therapist says, “I’m secular.” Because in Oklahoma City, if you said, “I’m a secular therapist.” That’s like saying, “I’m a second cousin to the devil.” No, the religious judges will not refer people to you, the hospitals won’t refer to you, ministers certainly won’t refer you.

And so, the notion of a Christian counselor has ballooned in popularity over the last 20 years. Entire programs have been developed around Christian counseling. Some of them are Biblical Christian counseling.

So, I mean this is crazy. There’s no science behind this stuff and yet these people are getting insurance money. They’re licensed. They’re certified in various states. So, I realized that I’m going to have to do something about this.

So, I started the Secular Therapy Project in 201 and got a website developed and everything. Now, people around the country, and soon around the world, are coming to us. We’re opening soon to the international community in full and will be able to register with us as a secular therapist.

We have four highly qualified therapists on our vetting team. If you were a social worker and you wanted to become a part of our database, you would apply. You’d have to prove two things to us. One, that you’re secular. We need evidence of that.

We don’t take what groups you belong to or something on your webpage. Second, you need to prove to us that you use evidence-based methods. Not a new age woos or something like that; none of which have scientific validity to them as a therapy.

So, once we’ve established you’re bona fide, we let you into the database. Then if I’m searching for a therapist who is secular, I can go into our database. I can register for free. All of this for free: free to the therapist; free to the client.

I can find out if there’s anybody in my zip code or anywhere close to my zip code, like a Match.com between therapists and clients. But it maintains confidentiality and anonymity for the client and for the therapist.

Because we don’t want to out the atheist therapist in Dallas, Texas, or Point, Texas, or, whatever, Timbuktu, Texas. Because the moment it is learned in your community that you are not a Christian, you’ll lose your practice.

Imagine: Tennessee, a psychologist saying, “I’m not a Christian.” 99, 98 percent of the people in that town are out as Christians. They’re not about to go to a therapist that is not a Christian, especially an atheist.

6. Jacobsen: I suspect that would be reflected in the treatment of atheists, if not attitudes reflected in surveys, but also in the treatment of young people who go against the norm of belief – as in the given examples.

People, they might still go through as secular therapists, possibly, because they have been battle-hardened in life for their atheism or agnosticism or some form of nonbelief in the standard, dominant religion.

Ray: Right. There’s a lot of problems with being a religious minority. I mean atheists are the most hated religious minority in the United States, even more so than Muslims. It’s funny, but that’s what the few trusted religious surveys have shown for quite a few years now.

So, it’s highly intelligent trained therapists who should be using evidence, and because of being highly trained and educated, are probably also secular. What has happened in the United States is, like Liberty University or Regents University, Paul and Pat Robertson’s institutions respectively, and other institutions, like George Fox University, they’re all fundamentalist colleges and universities.

But they have created these new programs for family therapy. It’s insidious around family therapy. But it’s a religious institution teaching family therapy or psychotherapy methods and requiring people to adhere to their theological perspectives throughout their training.

For example, Birmingham University, if you are a Ph.D. candidate, master, or lower Ph.D. candidate at Birmingham University, you’d have to sign a statement, or nobody will admit you that on: you will not masturbate and two you won’t have sex acts outside of marriage.

Jacobsen: [Laughing]!

Ray: So, right. [Laughing]! So, the funny thing there is: now, first, there’s finish graduating from that college, goes out in the world of practice. What are they going to teach people?! How are they going to get over their own stupidity around masturbation and help somebody who’s having a lot of guilt?

They’re a Catholic. They’re guilty as hell about masturbating. How is that therapist going to work with them? They can’t. Their own indoctrination is going to get in the way. It does. We get this repeatedly.

My therapist sent me back to church. In fact, reading a good article, interviews, another interview, it’s right on her website. The Psychotherapy Project website, ‘has your therapist tried to save you?’

David Niose did the interview with me for Psychology Today a couple years ago.

7. Jacobsen: You have written on “sex addiction.” Is it not a real thing? So, one of the major, or main restrictions, boundaries, borders that are put up, traditionally speaking, by religious texts and subsequently communities, and even societies, are strongly around sex.

So, why isn’t sex addiction a real thing? And what do you see as the main reason for religion in general, especially the Abrahamic ones, to restrict and direct sexual activity of the young especially, and even more especially the women?

Ray: First, sex addiction is a religious construct. It is not a psychological or scientific construct. The reason I say that is in 25 or 30 years of research; nobody has been able to figure out how you would scientifically define and diagnose this notion of sex addiction.

Most addictions are questionable and difficult to define, but we found ways to define some of them. But let me ask you a counter question, “Do you believe in Facebook addiction?”

Jacobsen: [Laughing] Not really.

Ray: Okay, people who spend hours after hours online on Facebook. They waste a ton of time. It interferes with their work; it interferes with their life; it interferes with their relationships. Doesn’t that sound like an addiction to you?

Jacobsen: It does fit some criteria that I would tacitly have.

Ray: And yet, those researchers aren’t concerned about Facebook addiction because sex has a special component to it. So, that’s my answer to the first piece. The second part of the sex addiction piece is, since there’s no science, we can’t diagnose it.

If you can’t diagnose it, you can’t treat it. So, anybody who claims to treat sex addiction is a charlatan; they’re selling snake oil; they should be disbarred. And yet there are people who advertise themselves as sex addict counselors.

They should be disbarred; they should have their license taken away. But it’s a powerful religious lobby. The religionists make a lot of money off the notion of sex addiction. DSM-5 does not have a category of sex addiction in it.

In fact, hypersexuality has even been severely changed and modified because: how do you define hypersexuality? Is somebody masturbating 10 times a day hypersexual? If it doesn’t interfere with his life or her life, then it’s not hypersexual.

But, in the Catholic worldview, masturbating even once makes you a sex addict. Masturbating to pornography makes you a porn addict, even once. I have quotes. I have a video of a Catholic spokesman for the Catholic Church of the United States saying, ‘If you’ve masturbated to porn once, you are a sex addict.’

That’s ludicrous. But not to a Catholic. I have a nice 50-minute talk on the myth of sex addiction. You can see it on YouTube. Google it, it’s right there. There’s a hell of a lot to talk about on that. But the main thing to know is that sex addiction is a religious notion, not a scientific one.

So, women and sex, all patriarchal religions have discovered over centuries that the best way to control people is through their sex and sexuality. I use the term in my book The God Virus, I call it the “guilt cycle.”

But religions, they teach that when you’re 5 or 10-years-old; that sex is bad; that masturbation is bad, touching your own genitals is bad. If you do it, then you’re going to hell: Jesus is watching you.

There’s a voyeuristic God out there that wants to see everything you do and is going to condemn you. I often tell Christians that if you’re a Christian, and you have sex, then you have a threesome with Jesus. He’s watching you the whole time.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Ray: So, patriarchal religions, once they realize that, they’ve taught you that your own body is your enemy: I mean look at the story of Adam and Eve. That is a signal that your body is the enemy and particularly women are the enemy.

Women were the temptress; women succumb to temptation. Women tempted men. All those are sins and crimes and all women are guilty of that crime in the Catholic worldview. Also, in the Islamic worldview, and to a somewhat lesser degree, even in Buddhism, Buddhists clearly are misogynistic, and male-dominated, patriarchal.

Hinduism, the same thing. So, you can name the patriarchal religion and control of women’s sexuality as number one in their list of priorities from their worldview. It starts early on with girls being taught about the religious concept of virginity.

Virginity is not a biological concept. At all. It’s a religious concept. So, what we do is we teach girls that virginity is precious, God owns your virginity; in other words, you do not own your own body, and losing your virginity is a dangerous thing.

You must guard it carefully. Of course, on the opposite side, it assumes that boys are out to get your virginity; that you must protect yourself; that you keep your legs together with an aspirin between them. All these messages.

In the purity culture, especially among fundamentalists, but it pervades our whole culture. And when we have people going into our schools right now teaching abstinence only, bull shit, the girls, most of the messages are guilt messages.

Now, why is that important in a patriarchal religion? Because when a child is taught their body is ba, they commit a sin, where they feel terrible about it. “I masturbated this morning, now I feel terrible, what do I do?”

A Baptist reads the Bible and prays. A Catholic goes to confession. A Mormon confesses to his bishop. Do you realize that bishop Mitt Romney of the Mormon church had to listen to 12-year-old boys tell him if they masturbated or not? Did you know that’s a part of the Mormon church?

12-year-old boys come in to get their talking to by the bishop and one of the questions they ask is, “Have you masturbated?” And if you have, “What are you going to do about not doing it anymore?”

This is a 12-year-old boy. They hand them an 8-page piece of literature. I even quote it extensively in my book, Sex and God. They even give them an 8-page a story or metaphor that does not mention the word sex or penis or masturbation, doesn’t mention it once, but the title is, “Don’t tamper with the factory.”

The metaphor is that your genitals are a factory for creating sperm. It’s going to do its thing and you shouldn’t mess with it. Don’t touch your genitals, [Laughing]! And Mitt Romney was giving this thing to people.

To 12-year-old boys, because the bishop in the Mormon church must do that, it’s one of their duties. Nobody said that during the election cycle, that’s for sure, [Laughing].

8. Jacobsen: What’s the most bizarre sexual taboo that you’ve come across in your research on sex and religion?

Ray: Oh, that’s an easy question to answer. Most Christians say to secularists, “You want to be secular because you want to act like an animal. You want to have all the sex you can.”

Let me tell you something. There are almost no animals in this planet that only have sex for procreation.

There are almost no animals on this planet that can have sex whenever they want to. Humans can have sex whenever they want to, bonobo apes can have sex whenever they want to, chimps can have sex whenever they want to, dolphins can have sex whenever they want to.

But, my dog, she’s walking around me right now wondering why I’m not petting her. She only mates when she’s ready to procreate. That insect that’s getting ready to hatch out of its larva this spring in a few weeks is only going to have sex to procreate.

Most animals on this planet only have sex to procreate. In other words, when the Pope tells you to have sex only to procreate, he’s telling you to have sex like an animal. Now, think about that. He’s telling you to have sex like an animal.

As a human, I have sex whenever I want to, and masturbation is a big part of being human. So, that’s perverted if you think about it. When the Pope says nuns cannot have to sex their entire lives, that to me is one of the most perverted sexual things you can ask a person to do.

So, flip it on its head, your question. What’s the most perverted thing? Telling people, they can’t have sex for a lifetime.

Jacobsen: I can see from their perspective a self-selection of people entering them, but then also telling them: it’s probably both. It’s people self-selecting to go into that, plus then being reinforced and encouraged to not.

Ray: They’re somewhat self-selected at an early age before their own hormones. Many, many priests tell me that they committed their lives to God when they were 12- or 13-years-old before the hormones got rolling.

Now, there is a self-selection. About one percent of the population probably meets the criteria of being asexual.

9. Jacobsen: What are the criteria for asexual?

Ray: Have no interest in sex at all. Don’t masturbate, don’t want to have sex with another person, it doesn’t interest them.

Jacobsen: That’s a lot of people.

Ray: In some ways, they are lucky. The rest of us are so horny. We don’t know what do with it sometimes. If one percent out of the population is asexual, now, there’s probably a large percentage of that that is situationally asexual.

Medically, you have a medical illness or disease or condition. You might lose your sex drive; your libido might disappear. People have told me after they got divorced, they had no interest in sex for three years.

Then suddenly their sex life comes back, their libido comes back. But what I’m talking about is of those one percent in the world, of course, half of those are male. If those people are self-selecting to become priests, then they have a huge advantage.

They’re not interested in sex and never will be interested in sex. So, they’re going to make great priests. But the problem with that is they’re also going to be great priests standing up in front of everybody else and saying, “You can’t masturbate. You can’t have sex.” It’s easy for them to say!

I have no interest in Game of Thrones. I don’t want to ever watch that; it doesn’t make any sense to me; I don’t want to watch it. So, if I said, “You can’t because I don’t like Game of Thrones, you can’t watch it either.”

That’s basically what people are saying, what an asexual would be saying to the rest of the congregation. Now, the fact is that most of those priests are not asexual because they went to an all-boys seminary.

I’ve interviewed so many priests. I’ve done this so many times. They commit themselves to the church at 12 or 13, often at the behest of their parents because Catholics love to have a boy in the family that’s a priest.

That gives them lots of status in the Catholic community. My uncle is a priest, or my son is going to be a priest. They love that. And so, the kid at 12 or 13 under parental pressure and family pressure goes to an all-boys seminary and in the all-boys seminary; there’s a lot of fucking going on.

A lot of homosexual activity going on. And most every person I’ve ever talked to that went to the all-boys Catholic seminary, even if they didn’t eventually become a priest, said there was lots of homosexual stuff going on.

So, these boys are discovering their sexuality, even as they’re going through their celibate and abstinence-only indoctrination. It’s not working then when they get out. They become an actual priest. They have been programmed to sexually respond in that environment.

And as a result, in my own research and several other people have verified this in their own research, that’s a big part of where the pedophile priest issue comes from. It is the way they’re being trained as boys because your brain is designed to labor: what are the appropriate sexual behaviors and sexual object in my culture?

And that’s why what is attractive and beautiful in one culture is not attractive and beautiful in another culture because the brain has been programmed for that cultural expectation. We’re not programmed, our brains are not preprogrammed like an insect.

An insect or a bird knows exactly who to mate with. We don’t. We must learn that. If your brained is turned on to learning who to mate with when you’re 13, 14, 15, and you’re in an all-boys seminary, you look around or your all girl’s nunnery; you look around, all you see is boys, or all you see is girls, your brain is going to imprinted.

I mean by that “imprinted,” the biological printing, to think that should be the focus in your mating behavior. It’s done at a biological level and neurological level. I can go on and on about that, but I don’t think that’s what you wanted to hear.

Jacobsen: It’s all fascinating.

Ray: This is an aside, you may or may not be interested in. You may have noticed this, but every culture seems to have a body type that is more prevalent. I’ll give an example. The most extreme is something called “Steel Page” in Africa. Women with gigantic butts.

Now, why are women in certain tribes of Africa having gigantic butts? Whereas you go to Wales and you look at women there, women there have on average much larger breasts than women in other places.

Then you go to Asia, you see Asian women with almost no breasts at all, tiny, if at all. So, you must ask the question, “Why is there such a massive difference in body types across cultures?” And part of that has to do with what we’re talking about. We literally are breeding ourselves.

There is sexual selection going on right within our own species and different cultures highlight what is sexually attractive in their culture. Then those people tend to breed more successfully. Their offspring tend to have their butts bigger, or bigger breasts or fuller breasts.

It’s fascinating to know we’re doing to ourselves what we do with cattle and what we do with dogs. We’re self-breeding. And it’s because the brain is programmed to look around and say, “What is attractive? What should be? What is attractive in my culture?”

So, you get lots of people at age 12 or 13 – all people, men, and women are – looking around; their brain is programmed to say, “What is the right thing in this culture?” Once they’ve locked in on that, then that becomes their sexual fetish, probably for the rest of their life.

It is especially true of men. The research shows that men fetishize much more quickly and completely and for lifelong than women do. So, if a man has a breast fetish, he locks in on that. H’s probably going to have a breast fetish for the rest of his life.

Lots of other fetishes, we think that’s probably where it comes from, the brain. It is so desperate to figure out what’s the appropriate mating strategy currently in this place and this culture. That it locks onto whatever seems to be right to that 12 or 13-year-old, who is totally inexperienced.

He doesn’t have a clue. He’s responding to the visual and emotional cues of that time and place.

So, that’s my extra bit of knowledge there for you.

10. Jacobsen: What are sometimes termed universal attractive characteristics? Those that would be invariant. So, things across-culture-attractive and that we are self-selecting for no matter the culture?

Ray: I’m not sure I can answer that. The reason I say is that humans, we are the most sexually flexible on the planet. There are almost no other species as nearly as sexually flexible as ours. The interesting thing is there’s a good book called Sexual Fluidity. It came out about 5 years ago.

It’s a long-term – I mean long term, 10- to 20-year – a study of women and shows how women’s sexual behavior changes rather dramatically over a lifetime. And that a woman who may describe herself as straight in her teens may describe herself as bisexual in her 20s and lesbian in her 30s then back to straight in her 40s.

It’s amazing how fluid women’s sexuality is. Men do not seem to be nearly as fluid but still fluid within that window of time that I’ve spoken about that that the brain is programmed. The remarkable thing: obviously, there’s probably some universals.

But even that’s iffy. I’m not sure. Every universal I can think about there’s major exceptions. If you think about it, my dog doesn’t have a wide variety of sexual behaviors that she wants to engage in.

Whereas a female, the equivalent of that, age and all, would have a wide variety of sexual behaviors she can engage in. Some of which would develop by age; I’ve studied people in their 40s and 50s and 60s. They’re still developing new things.

People who are 50 and 60 years old can be kinky as hell. Tell me in my 20s, I’d have never thought about doing that. I’d be scared to death to do that. So, we are amazing. The unique thing about humans is we have a high-level need for variety.

Humans want variety, constant variety. That’s partially what drives our consumerist society. We’re always looking for the new thing; we always want the latest technology, want the newest car, want a different color or shade of lipstick or whatever.

If the same thing that drives our sexuality always labor what’s going to turn us on, one of the problems with religious sexuality is religion has a one size fits all approach, and that’s monogamy forever.

The fact is, there’s no human society on this planet that’s monogamous. There’s never been a time in human history that was monogamous. So, I give talks about this all the time. I ask my audience. Let’s say there are 400 people in the room.

I’d say, “How many of someone who is monogamous?” And I bet half the hands will raise up. The other half have heard my talk before or they’ve read my books, so they know better.

Jacobsen: [Laughing] That’s funny.

Ray: Now, I say, “Keep your hands up if it’s not you.” And almost all the hands go down. Because, for example, my parents, who are now both deceased, told me that they had never had sex before they were married.

That was not true or at least one of my two parents. I have evidence for it. So, people lie about their sexual experience, especially women. Because sexual experiences are shamed in our culture. Women are shamed for being sexual.

So, anyway, the one size fits all religious straitjacket works for people who have a low sex drive, low level of curiosity, who is asexual, who buy into the religious stuff about staying married to your spouse for the rest of your life.

The rest of us, we don’t want to have a deal with that. That’s why the divorce rate is so high. The divorce rate is higher among the most religious. The more religious you are, then the more likely you are to be divorced.

11. Jacobsen: Are they not only the more guilt-ridden around sex as well?

Ray: Oh, there’s a lot of shame and guilt that they don’t know how to deal with. So, they act it out and that leads to divorce. And this notion of sex addiction. You don’t know how many people are going to therapists now saying my husband is a sex addict because I caught him looking at porn and masturbating.

So, who diagnosed that? Was it a psychologist? Or was it the wife? [Laughing]! Or the mother in law, or the minister? I call it the Oprah Effect. Oprah Winfrey is diagnosing sex addiction.

She has no fucking qualifications for doing that. She’s having people on her show like Dr. Drew, who’s an idiot, or Dr. Phil, who has no qualifications and shouldn’t be diagnosing anybody; they’re calling people sex addicts.

Dr. Phil, I mean these people are spreading incredibly harmful notions about sexuality on Oprah and she is not challenging them. Believe me, I’ve tried to get her to challenge them, she won’t answer my emails, that’s for sure.

12. Jacobsen: But that’s in the United States. The United States, maybe outside of the Islamic world, is one among a few extraordinarily religious nations. So, the framework from people, families, groups, and subpopulations that will view the world in one way, which is completely internally self-affirming to unsupported and non-scientific ideas around sex, right?

Ray: There’s a lot of good research out there. You might look at David Barash’s book, it’s a great book called The Myth of Monogamy or read Dr. Marty Klein’s book. Both guys are major sexologists.

Dr. Marty Klein’s essay called “You’re Addicted to What?” It’s an essay. Or you might also be interested in Dr. Marty Klein’s book called America’s War on Sex. It’s an interesting look at politics and statistics and practices of America and sexuality.

And of course, if you’re interested in the sex part of it, go look at my book, Sex and God: How Religion Distorts Sexuality. There’s a lot of people starting to write about it. The reason I wrote both of my books, my most recent books, was because I wasn’t seeing anybody talking about this stuff, especially sex.

Nobody wants to challenge the religious notions about sexuality in our culture. And nobody wants to challenge therapists that are using nonscientific approaches to therapy that cause more problems.

The first rule of medicine is “do no harm” and yet psychotherapists out there are exacerbating the psychological problems that people are having that was initially caused by religion.

As a therapist, my colleagues verify this, about 80 percent of the people that come into my office or have come into my office over the years, dealing with sex problems, 80 percent, probably more, really, is dealing with sex problems directly related to religious training.

So, if they’re going through a divorce because the wife says you’re a sex addict, that’s a religious notion. It’s not a scientific notion. And we got all that stuff going on in our culture. And psychologists that don’t stand up and say, “That’s wrong. You can’t do good psychotherapy.”

They can’t say that without challenging underlying religious assumptions. That’s scary. That’s scary, especially when you’re a religious person as a psychotherapist, scary.

13. Jacobsen: Are there any aspects of religion that you find admirable?

Ray: Religion can bring people together in community. That’s one of its big strengths. But, it is not unique to religion. They have created a corner on that market. Humans are social creatures. We want community.

We want a place to bring our children, we want a place to teach our children, they’re safe. And churches claim to do that for people. Unfortunately, once you get in the church, then your children are going to be taught things you probably don’t want to be taught.

And where’s the secular person going to go? If I said, and too many secular people say, “I went back to church because I wanted a community. I don’t believe a word that minister is saying.” But the problem is you’re putting your children through Sunday school where they’re being taught some nasty stuff.

Like God created genocide, killed everybody on the planet through this cute little story about Noah’s Ark or another cute little story like murdering all the children for making fun of a prophet.

So, the community teaches us what people are after. And what I’m loving right now, Sunday Assembly is a movement out of England. It’s sputtered a bit, but it’s working in some places. Oasis started about 3 years ago. It’s bringing the community together.

I’m watching it. It started in Houston and is thriving in Houston. And it’s now in Kansas City. I say we because I’ve been a part of this movie. They have 3 organizations in Salt Lake City area, one in Okun area, one in Toronto area, and one in Austin opened two weeks ago.

One in Wichita, Kansas that opened a few months ago. Here’s what Oasis is: it’s a weekly meeting on Sunday morning at 11 o’clock where mostly atheists, secularists, and humanists, all come together and have a blast listening to a science culture, hearing some good rock music or good secular music.

There is childcare, which is really important. All churches have childcare. We’ve got childcare. The minute you add childcare to the formula, your population doubles or triples. It’s amazing to see how many people come to these things.

We’re getting 200 people showing up every Sunday. Houston is getting 150 people showing up every Sunday. Now, it sounds crazy and people say it sounds like an atheist church. Oh, no, it’s community, like the Rotary Club is a community.

Nobody calls them a church. Our focus is on education and science, philosophy. We have great speakers; people who challenge your thinking process about stuff like death and dying. What do death and dying mean to an atheist? That’s interesting.

We have polyamory presentations on “What’s polyamory?” and “How does it work?” We show some people that can talk about it. Or swinger, somebody talking about a swinger lifestyle. Now, what church is going to let you talk about swinging or polyamory?

Jacobsen: Not many.

Ray: No, you would be shocked at the number of polyamorous in the atheist community, lots of poly people. About 30 percent of our group in Oasis is poly or poly-friendly. The fact is, there’s probably poly people in churches too.

They couldn’t say it. Or they’d get thrown it. Does that answer your question?

14. Jacobsen: That does, and I’m out of them. So, thank you much for your time, Darrel.

Ray: My pleasure.

References

  1. ABC News. (n.d.). Atheists Have Best Sex Lives, Claims Psychologist. Retrieved from https://www.webcitation.org/5ywc4WxKy?url=http://abcnews.go.com/Health/atheists-best-sex-lives-claims-kansas-psychologists-survey/story?id=13679076&singlePage=true.
  2. An Atheist. (2010, May 20). Darrel W. Ray Speaks Out!. Retrieved from https://www.webcitation.org/5z9zjyAsh?url=http://www.anatheist.net/2010/05/darrel-w-ray-speaks-out/.
  3. Filipino Freethinkers. (2014, August 3). A Conversation with Darrel Ray. Retrieved from http://filipinofreethinkers.org/2014/08/03/a-conversation-with-darrel-ray/.
  4. Eberhard, J.T. (2014, November 12).  Darrel Ray enters the world of podcasting with Secular Sexuality!. Retrieved from http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wwjtd/2014/11/darrel-ray-enters-the-world-of-podcasting-with-secular-sexuality/#so34SDUMC5VAcpSY.99.
  5. Gray, H.T. (2009, June 12). New support group Recovering Religionists helps people who leave the church. Retrieved from https://web.archive.org/web/20090617033259/http://www.kansascity.com/238/story/1249250.html.
  6. Myers, P.Z. (2011, January 24). Prying into your dirty, dirty secrets. Retrieved from https://web.archive.org/web/20110303204654/http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/01/prying_into_your_dirty_dirty_s.php.
  7. Teaming Up. (2016).  About Darrel W. Ray, Ed.D.. Retrieved from https://web.archive.org/web/20120324135226/http://www.teaming-up.com/drdray_bio.html.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Founder, Recovering from Religion.

[2] Individual Publication Date: February 15, 2018 at www.in-sightjournal.com/ray; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2018 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] BA, Sociology/Anthropology; MA, Religion; Doctorate, Psychology.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Dr. Darrel Ray on Christian Fundamentalism and Sex: Founder, Recovering from Religion [Online].February 2018; 16(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-five.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, February 15). Conversation with Dr. Darrel Ray on Christian Fundamentalism and Sex: Founder, Recovering from Religion. Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/ray.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Dr. Darrel Ray on Christian Fundamentalism and Sex: Founder, Recovering from Religion. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A, February. 2018. <www.in-sightjournal.com/ray>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “Conversation with Dr. Darrel Ray on Christian Fundamentalism and Sex: Founder, Recovering from Religion.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/ray.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Dr. Darrel Ray on Christian Fundamentalism and Sex: Founder, Recovering from Religion.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A (February 2018). www.in-sightjournal.com/ray.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Conversation with Dr. Darrel Ray on Christian Fundamentalism and Sex: Founder, Recovering from Religion‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 16.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/ray>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Conversation with Dr. Darrel Ray on Christian Fundamentalism and Sex: Founder, Recovering from Religion‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 16.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/ray.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Dr. Darrel Ray on Christian Fundamentalism and Sex: Founder, Recovering from Religion.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 16.A (2018):February. 2018. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/ray>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Dr. Darrel Ray on Christian Fundamentalism and Sex: Founder, Recovering from Religion [Internet]. (2018, February; 16(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/ray.

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2018-02-08

Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Kirk Kirkpatrick and Rick Rosner on the “American Disease” and “Super Empowerment”

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 16.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Twelve)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: February 8, 2018

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 5,604

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Rick Rosner and I conduct a conversational series entitled Ask A Genius on a variety of subjects through In-Sight Publishing on the personal and professional website for Rick. Rick exists on the World Genius Directory listing as the world’s second highest IQ at 192 based on several ultra-high IQ test scores developed by independent psychometricians. Kirk Kirkpatrick earned a score at 185, near the top of the listing, on a mainstream IQ test, the Stanford-Binet. Both scores on a standard deviation of 15. A sigma of ~6.13 for Rick – a general intelligence rarity of 1 in 2,314,980,850 – and ~5.67 for Kirk – a general intelligence rarity of 1 in 136,975,305. Of course, if a higher general intelligence score, then the greater the variability in, and margin of error in, the general intelligence scores because of the greater rarity in the population. This amounts to a joint interview or conversation with Kirk Kirkpatrick, Rick Rosner, and myself on the “American Disease,” as identified and labeled by Kirk, and “Super Empowerment,” as observed and named by Rick.

Keywords: general intelligence, Kirk Kirkpatrick, Rick Rosner, sigma, Stanford-Binet, World Genius Directory.

Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Kirk Kirkpatrick and Rick Rosner on the “American Disease” and “Super Empowerment”[1],[2]

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, let’s open the discussion with the election and lead into healthcare. Rick, I believe you had some thoughts on the election. We had some discussions before.

Rick Rosner: Kirk wanted to go deeper than that. Right before we started taping, he wanted to talk about deeper causes because everybody has had a stomach full of the more obvious proximate causes, but I believe deeper trends help generate the situate we’re in.

Kirk Kirkpatrick: Yes, I think he’s right. If I can start the conversation, my background is rather diverse considering most Americans. I lived in 8 countries. I have probably have been to every country in the northern hemisphere. I speak several languages.

My wife is a native Chinese. I tend to take a more international look at things. But when I returned back to living in the United States, one the things that struck me was the way people think they are entitled to hold an opinion.

And they confuse the entitlement of holding an opinion with the veracity of the opinion. In other words, “I have a right to hold an opinion, and that means you need to consider this opinion as valid.” So, I see, if I can give an example.

If I had never been to LA and I was speaking with Rick, and we were having a discussion about Los Angeles, and Rick said to me, “You know, Kirk, I grew up here. I lived here all of my life.” I would start deferring to him about finding out what Los Angeles was like.

I would be the last person in the world to start arguing with him about a place I had never been to before, and that he happened to live in and had grown up in, and is a rational, intelligent human being. Do you understand my point?

Rosner: Yup.

Jacobsen: Yes.

Rosner: And I agree with it. I’ve been calling it “super empowerment.” Where a lot of our tech and social media give people reinforcement of the idea that whatever you believe must be the truth, you’re entitled to spread that truth by whatever means necessary.

Kirkpatrick: The evangelists, I think that’s a very good point. The way I put it, or the succinct way I say it, “A Google search does not an expert make.” Because you Googled an article and read it doesn’t even tell me that you 1) had the background to understand the article that you read or 2), and more importantly, to validate the article and find out whether or not the author knew what he was talking about.

Rosner: I heard on NPR yesterday, day before. Some country or entity wants to install something before you’re allowed to comment on the article. You have to take a quiz on the article to make sure you even read it and understood it.

Kirkpatrick: [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing] That’s very good.

Kirkpatrick: I can give you a perfect example that will illustrate it excellently. If you remember a while back, we did a deal, or I say we were part of a deal, with Iran to try to prevent them from developing nuclear weapons.

While that was going on, I had a phone call from a woman who claimed to be from my congress, which I don’t believe. But she said she was. I’ll quote her as quickly or as accurately as I can. She wanted to know my opinion on “Obama’s deal with Iran.”

And those were her exact words. I said to her, “Ma’am, can I ask you a couple of questions first?” She said, “Yes.” I said, “What is your opinion on Obama’s deal with Iran?” She said, “I don’t like it.”

Rosner: Sure.

Kirkpatrick: I said, “Have you been to Iran?” She said, “No.” I said, “Can you name 5 cities in Iran?” She said, “No.” I said, “How about 3?” She said, “No.” I said, “Can you name the countries that border Iran?” She said, “No.” I said, “Then, what is it that bothers you about this deal?” She said, “It threatens Israel.” I said, “That sounds reasonable. Can you name 5 cities in Israel?” She said, “No.” I said, “Can you name 3?”

She said, “No.” I said, “Can you name the countries that border Israel?” She said, “No.” I said, “Have you ever visited the place or been there?” She said, “No.”

I said, “Then allow me to answer your question.” I said, “Firstly, I don’t know any deal that Obama did with Iran, but I know a deal that the P5+1 nations did with Iran under the auspices of the Security Council at the UN. If that’s the one that you’re referring to, I’ve been to Iran and can easily name 5 cities in the place, and can tell you every country that touches it.”

I continued, “And on top of that, I lived in Israel. So, 5 cities are really easy. I can tell you every country that touches Israel. I have been to all of them. And in spite of all of this, I still don’t know enough about this arms deal to form an opinion one way or another. So, the operative question for me is, ‘Why do you care what I think? And why do you even have an opinion?’”

Of course, she hung the phone up.

Rosner: Nice.

Kirkpatrick: That’s my point. You’re going to have an opinion on an arms deal that you incorrectly describe to these people, and it’s an arms deal! You know, it’s like, who are you?

Rosner: What she characterized as an arms deal was the nuclear weapons development negotiation going on, I guess, right?

Kirkpatrick: She meant the P5+1 nations’ deal with Iran. But my point is, you’re going to form an opinion about something like that. You’re not bothering to educate yourself? Not knowing the countries that border Iran?

It isn’t that advanced. Let’s put it this way, if Rick and I were talking, and Rick put an equation in front of me that said, “y+ 8=4,” and I looked at him and said, “You can’t add letters to numbers.” I’m not sure he’d take my opinion on math very seriously.

Rosner: Yes, Yes.

Kirkpatrick: That’s the point I’m trying to make. This is what I call the “American Disease.” Where because we have TV, cable news, and Google, we think, “Oh, I’ll Google this.” The American becomes unaware of the fact that the guy who wrote the article doesn’t know any more about the subject than he does. He’s writing down what somebody else has said, over and over again.

Rosner: I’ve watched a lot of the middle to Left-leaning news. I watched a lot of MSNBC. I reluctantly watch CNN. With Fox News, at least you know, you’re getting biased news. CNN presents itself as news and tries to be even handed, or at least they present the appearance of being even handed.

That involves assembling these panels of 6 or 8 people. Most of whom either don’t know what they’re talking about or who are dispensing fairly pure bullshit. And this was a staple of coverage during the election. CNN has stayed with that format.

All of the little tricks they learned about drawing in eyeballs during the election. These cross-partisan panels. People on Trump’s side. People on the other side. Countdown clocks, town halls, they’ve kept it all. It’s as if the election is still going on.

It is endless presentations of uninformed and/or deliberately misleading opinion.

Kirkpatrick: Yes, I have to give you credit here because I can’t stomach any of it. I watch no, absolutely zero, television news.  So, you understand, I can’t do it.

Rosner: I used to write jokes for late night TV. Which meant that I…

Kirkpatrick: you had to…

Rosner: Yes, I had to be informed. I’ve kept the habit. Much to the detriment of my blood pressure.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Kirkpatrick: Here’s what I advise my friends who come and ask me, because my news is a little tough, in that, I speak multiple languages. I am able to read Het Parool in Holland or Die Welt in German. So, I get a little different viewpoint.

But what I tell them is to go to Google News, if they go down to Google News at the bottom, there’s a link that says, “Other languages.” Or there’s about 20 overseas editions of Google News that are English, but presented from the perspective of the person in that country.

So, for example, India has an English Google News and Australia has an English Google News, Israel has an English Google News, and South Africa has an English Google News. If you click that, then there’s every article that you’ll never see in the United States.

Rosner: That’s really good to know. I get sick of my three stupid go-to sources. The ones that I can stomach. I go through it pretty fast. I’m unnecessarily informed after going through it.

Kirkpatrick: They all have to buy it. That’s why I say, “If you get a bunch of them, you read them in the middle.” The other thing I tell people is that if you want to, for example, tell me about Germany and the problem they’re having, or perhaps not having, with the immigrants, and then try to sit there and argue with me.

First thing I’m going to do. I’m going to research it in the German press. Because when I lived in Europe, sometimes, you can see the European press writing in glee about a problem The United of States was having.

When you look down into the problems, it wasn’t nearly as bad. There was a lot added to it because they wanted that. That goes in all directions for any country. I’m not blaming Europeans or anybody else.

Rosner: I had a discussion with a super conservative friend about Sweden being the rape capital of Europe because of the Muslims. My buddy is an artist, which means he’s using his eyes and hands all day but his ears are free.

He pipes in ten hours a day of conservative talk about this stuff. He is very informed on all the conservative talking points. The story about this rape in Sweden. You poke at it a little bit. It starts to fall apart because it starts turning into mush where you really have to do a lot of research on it.

It’s all the parts, but you’re not left with anything because now you’re left with uncertainty. One reason that Sweden seems rapey is that they have a super inclusive definition of sexual assault that can include things such as micro aggressions.

Kirkpatrick: It is worse than that, okay? Now, let me give you an example, my company, the one I am the CEO of, has about 15 employees who has 10 on contract. We build countrywide telecommunication systems, but we generally use the manpower of whoever is buying our system to build it.

So, let’s get to Sweden, I’m talking to some young thing in the bar. I tell her I’m the CEO of a telecommunication company. Then we go to bed because she thinks I’m hot. In the next morning, I get a phone call.

I say, “I’ve got to do this and that. It’s my accountant. I don’t have a secretary.” She asks, “How big is your company?” I reply, “We have five employees and ten contractors.” Now, she thought I was this rich Apple type CEO, but, in fact, now she found out that my company is not as big as she thought it was.

That’s right; I deceived her. That’s rape after the fact. That’s what Julian Assange has been accused of; that exact thing. That he lied to the woman about who he was. I’m not going to show what they do about it, but I don’t think that that’s right in the other direction.

But it’s the same thing when you’re talking to a conservative about the crime rate in the UK. If I raise my fist to you in the UK, then I’ve assaulted you, even though I’ve never hit you. In the United States, that’s not a violent crime and in the UK it is.

But I think that’s my point in the case of discussing this about Sweden. I will move this on social media. This will come up and almost lead into the conversation. A guy who is not only Swedish, but he lives there. He’s living there now. He’s never lived any place else.

I’ll still have Americans who argue with him. Sure, that’s much more.

Rosner: Yes, so, in a deeper sense or looking at its people feeling super empowered, at the same time, they’re almost more manipulable than at a lot of other points in history.

Kirkpatrick: Does that mean the Dunning-Kruger effect?

Rosner: Yes, I love that thing. I tweeted about that during the election so many times. To explain to everybody, the Dunning-Kruger Effect, let me explain: in movies, there are magical characters.  Often, in movies, dumb people have a special wisdom. They know they’re dumb.

Forrest Gump, he’s retarded. He’s got an IQ 70. Yet, he’s full of this wisdom, a deeper wisdom that goes beyond his academic difficulties. That’s in the movies. In real life, the Dunning-Kruger Effect is that somebody who’s dumb is also dumb about their level of dumbness.

So, a lot of people who are dumb think they’re super smart because they’re too dumb to realize that they’re dumb. There’s nothing magic about them. There’s no deep wisdom about them. There’s a deep assurance that they know what’s what.

They’ve been catered to by these news sources. Fox being the first one to it. I’m not sure my understanding is completely accurate, but it is my understanding. That 30-40 years ago conservative think-tanks started researching how to win people.

They realized that dumb, colourful, easy branding, easy issues were the way to grab low information – meaning dumb – voters, and yank them around. They started by that.  Anyway, Fox News has been going for 37 years. People have their brain tenderized.

They are super confident about what they think, but they’re not good in the head.

Kirkpatrick: I think you’re giving them a little too much credit.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Kirkpatrick: Let me tell you what mean by that. I think this is more Rupert saying that there’s the gullible objects. First, what I’ll say is this, we say it about CNN and MSNBC. I think MSNBC tried to be FOX a little bit.

But what I would say is most of the American media and a lot of European media are biased towards sensationalists. If it bleeds, it leads. They want to be sensational. CNN is the worst with this, but Fox is appealing to a specific constituency that Rupert Murdoch realized CNN wasn’t available to feed these people.

When I was dealing with a man who was very close in the group, I helped set up Sky Latin America for him down in Latin America. He told me that they had brought in a bunch of marketers who’d do a marketing plan for Sky Latin American.

The groups produced a document about a 158 pages long. Rupert wasn’t there.  Rupert came down. My friend whose name happens to be Scott, came in to say you may have this marketing plan in his hand, which they put together.

He said, “I handed it to Rupert.” As I see Rupert glance at the cover, he said, “This hand never stopped moving towards the next page.” Finally, he dropped it. He looked at him. He said, “Scott, you buy the football. You put dishes on the roofs. That’s the marketing.” You get it?

I would say deep understanding of these markets. 80% of the decisions when multi-channel video is made on the basis of sports program in Latin America; soccer is everything. So, Rupert was much more fundamental than Scott was.

Guys, it’s really simple. These guys want football, buy the rights, then y’all run to you to get it, okay? Same with FOX. You could out that conservative being this The people will have confirmation by us. They want that to be right and will turn you into the exclusivity of everybody.

Rosner: I can’t get me to shut up about the size of the American population. 325-329 million people You got the dumbest half of the country. Then half of that again is the dumbest half of the dumbest half. That’s still 80 million people.

Kirkpatrick: FOX has this subscribership of about 30 million. So, that’s not even half of that, but look at how much money they’ve made.

Rosner: By the way, this is little off what you were saying, where the coverage is people who are on the Left. They lost the election, lost the government. All the branches feel pretty angst and bereft.

Perhaps, beyond even the immediate or midterm consequences of the laws, I think it’s hard on people’s sadness that the coverage took the form of sports coverage during the election. So, it’s not the political implications, but there’s this emotional bond you have with your political team now.

The way that people either love or hate you the way they do with the Patriots.

Kirkpatrick: You definitely have this, but I think there’s ignorance. I know that there’s a lot of – I didn’t say – angst because we lost the election, but this in my opinion is fundamentally different. I’ll tell you why for a couple of reasons. Number one, as I told you, I’ve lived more than half of my life in other countries.

You might imagine other countries follow American politics closely. The reason is because it affects their lives. But until the second George Bush election, I had never seen that end up with the American people. What I mean by that is people saying, “I don’t like your government at all, but I think the Americans are best people who work.” You understand what I mean?

Rosner: We’re starting to get hit hard with our own brushes.

Kirkpatrick: Yes. After the second George Bush election, people started saying, “Straighten this out, if that is the way you are, then, maybe, the American people are not who we thought they were.” I don’t think the average American understands the picture that we started painting for over the border.

If I can give you an example, did either of you gentlemen see the movie ‘The American Sniper’?

Jacobsen: Nope.

Rosner: No.

Kirkpatrick: I haven’t either, on purpose.  But I know about the scene because I went out and looked at it, because of the description of the scene. The first scene of this movie they’re attacking a neighborhood in Iraq. I believe it’s Iraq.

The red’s a woman in a Hijab and Abaya, where she’s got a 10-year-old kid.

Rosner: I heard about that scene too.

Kirkpatrick: You’ve heard about it? So, he shoots the woman. The whole time he’s sitting there saying, “Please don’t throw the grenade, please don’t throw.” But she starts to throw and he kills her. The little 10-year-old kid picks up the grenade and he starts back with this.

Of course, to make it more dramatic, his partner says, “If you’re wrong about this, you’re going to go to prison.” And, of course, he hesitates, the boy throws the grenade, but it doesn’t make it all the way to Americans. So, he saved their lives.

I say to people, “If you watch this scene in this movie, the only thing about the movie is that you convert the American soldier into a Soviet Union informant and make the woman and the boy Afghans, how would you feel? Would you feel the Soviet guy was a hero because he is saving the other Soviet soldiers from this evil Afghani woman and her child, as they’re invading their country?”

Rosner: Not so, much.

Kirkpatrick: Not so much, what’s different about the situation with Chris, Scott? We’re invading their country. They’re defending their homes the same way. Yet, now, he’s a hero and the whole world looks and wonders.

Let me give you a second example to chock the crap out of them, my wife is Chinese. She became an American citizen. She applied for American Citizenship. They had a nationalization ceremony. 80 people got their citizenship. I went to it. 

While she went to what should have been a solemn ceremony, they had a big screen in the centre of the room that would pop down when they played the national anthem. People stood up. After they said their oaths and stuff, they handed out to these little American flags.

After the ceremony, the screen comes back down, then they start playing Proud to be an American, the country music song. A woman walks on stage swinging a huge American flag back and forth. She yells at these guys and says, “Now, new American citizens stand up, wave your flag and sing.”

Now, I’m sure my wife has never heard this song before. She’s sitting right in front of me. They (new immigrants) were sitting together. But my point was when the song is over, of course, the 80 guys stood up and smiled and waved their flags.

It was as soon as it was over my wife not knowing what she was doing looks over at me six rows across the room and says out loud, “Just like IN CHINA, So Communist.”

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Kirkpatrick: Guys, that’s exactly what I was thinking. I spent time behind the Iron Curtain. I was thinking “This looks eerily like in Moscow.” What do you mean stand up, wave your flag and sing? Is that an order? I never did anything for it. Scott, you’re Canadian, right?

Jacobsen: I am, yes.

Kirkpatrick: Yet, can you imagine a lumberjack in the middle of the nationalization ceremony?

Jacobsen: [Laughing] If on the condition that it was a replay of a Monty Python song.

Kirkpatrick: Oh, right, right. And you don’t have the guy doing Doug & Bob McKenzie impressions from the podium. No, I can end this by saying my team I hired him out of Moscow. He grew up in the Soviet Union and has lived in the US for 5 years. ,

He came to me and said “One of the big differences between the Soviet Union and the US is that we have understood that our propaganda was all bullshit, “But you guys believe yours!”

Rosner: Because it comes out of an earnest people because the basic American values are not cynical. The 20th century marked the decay of American institutions that people used to believe in wholeheartedly: the church, Boy Scouts, patriotism, and so on. Everything got torched.

That stuff worked great for a while. So, it’s easy to sell people on stuff that used to work without examination and qualification. I remember in the ‘60s being taught critical thinking skills in elementary school.

There was a lesson on the nine ways advertising manipulates you.  It was good to have that.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Rosner: If that is still taught, but I know that we’re in the middle of a bunch of new technology and new social media, that makes us vulnerable because we haven’t learned the considerate bullshit. We’re still virgins.

When I worked in bars, one of my jobs was walking through the bar and looking for underage people who’d snuck in one way or another. One way I found them was I’d look for the clump of lame guys over there night after night without picking anybody up.

If there were several of those gathered around somebody, I knew at the center of the cluster of lame-Os would be an underage girl who had yet to bullshit. She didn’t have the experience yet on how to detect bullshit, how to push it away.

We are in that situation, where there’s all this new stuff. It looks shiny and powerful and makes us feel powerful. It makes us manipulable.

2. Jacobsen: Then maybe a closure question for the two of you: do you think social media, the new technology, amplifies the American Disease as you call it, Kirk, or the Super Empowered population as you call it, Rick?

Kirkpatrick: I think we’re both right. What I mean by this is I think it amplifies the American Disease, but as Rick implies, it’s probably going to be solved. In the end, it’s probably going to be the closest to the point that, as he mentioned before, you’re going to pull something and it’s going to pop up.

Instead, I’ve marked this is incorrect for anybody who might read.

Rosner: I totally agree with that. It takes a while to get resistant. When people first had cell phones, only 10% of the population had cell phones. We saw a lot of behaviour because it made everybody else pissed off: talking really loud on your phone in the line at the bank or in a restaurant.

Over time, people calmed down with that. Now, the new prop is texting all over the place, in crosswalks or while driving. Eventually, people will calm down with that and will learn to make better use of technology and understand. They will be less swayed by it. The trouble is by that time. It will be two or three new ways of tech to mess with people, but I remain optimistic.

Kirkpatrick: I do too.

Rosner: Is that a good place to end right there?

Jacobsen: That is a good line to end on, I think.

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  28. Predavec, M. (2014). Anoteleia 44. Retrieved from http://news.generiq.net/Anoteleia/anoteleia44.html.
  29. Prendergast, A. (2009, June 9). Rick Rosner’s latest gig: obsessed, in treatment. Retrieved from http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/2009/06/rick_rosners_latest_gig_obsess.php.
  30. PSIQ (n.d.). PSIQ: LUX. Retrieved fromhttp://www.psiq.org/lux/.
  31. PSIQ (n.d.). World Genius Directory. Retrieved from http://www.psiq.org/world_genius_directory_geniuses/geniuses.htm.
  32. Rosner, R. (2018, February 8). Blog – Rick Rosner. Retrieved from https://rickrosner.org/blog-2/.
  33. Spector, D. (2016, May 25). The world’s 2nd-smartest man reveals the ‘brain drugs’ that he thinks makes him smarter. Retrieved from http://uk.businessinsider.com/rick-rosner-iq-health-2016-5.
  34. Spector, D. (2014, December 3). The World’s 2nd-Smartest Man Reveals The ‘Brain Drugs’ That Make Him Smarter. Retrieved from http://www.businessinsider.sg/rick-rosner-iq-and-health-2014-12/#epZJgDvLJKUUsMpG.99.
  35. Strike TV [SmartestGuyITW]. (2008, November 10). Smartest Guy in the World – EP 1 – Little Rickey. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPTmBcQ62Cc.
  36. Strike TV [SmartestGuyITW]. (2008, November 10). Smartest Guy in the World – EP 2 Sock, Sock, Shoe, Shoe. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJW2SoCxFfo.
  37. Strike TV [SmartestGuyITW]. (2008, November 10). Smartest Guy in the World – EP 3 Dylan or Cole Sprouse. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uFS-9hTm5c.
  38. Strike TV [SmartestGuyITW]. (2008, November 10). Smartest Guy in the World – EP 4 – Eiffel Tower. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBJSS2T-pTc.
  39. Strike TV [SmartestGuyITW]. (2008, November 10). Smartest Guy in the World EP 5 – Fame or Fortune. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnhEmoVM9tQ.
  40. Strike TV [SmartestGuyITW]. (2008, November 10). Smartest Guy in the World EP 6 – Money. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3EaX6ULaJo.
  41. Strike TV [SmartestGuyITW]. (2008, November 10). Smartest Guy in the World EP 7 –The Fate of the Universe. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJW2SoCxFfo.
  42. Strike TV [SmartestGuyITW]. (2008, November 10). Smartest Guy in the World EP 8 – Dark Matter. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJW2SoCxFfo.
  43. The Daily [WatchTheDaily]. (2012, April 23). Is this the World’s Smartest Man?.  Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYo46N-Kfuw.
  44. The World Genius Directory (2013). Rick Rosner, World Genius Directory: 2013 Genius of the Year – America. Retrieved from http://www.psiq.org/world_genius_directory_awards/goty2013rickrosner.pdf.
  45. Trivia Hall of Fame. (2004, March). Interview: Rick Rosner, quiz show writer. Retrieved from http://www.triviahalloffame.com/rosner.php.
  46. Tsatsou, M. (2012, October 31). Evangelos Katsioulis Has World’s Highest IQ: 198. Retrieved from http://greece.greekreporter.com/2012/10/31/evangelos-katsioulis-has-worlds-highest-iq-198/.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Kirk Kirkpatrick: Founder & CEO, MDS America Inc. Corporation; Rick Rosner: Former Comedy Writer, Jimmy Kimmel Live!; Former Editor, Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society.

[2] Individual Publication Date: February 8, 2018 at www.in-sightjournal.com/american-disease-super-empowerment; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2018 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Kirk Kirkpatrick and Rick Rosner on the “American Disease” and “Super Empowerment” [Online].February 2018; 16(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/american-disease-super-empowerment.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, February 8). Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Kirk Kirkpatrick and Rick Rosner on the “American Disease” and “Super Empowerment”. Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/american-disease-super-empowerment.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Kirk Kirkpatrick and Rick Rosner on the “American Disease” and “Super Empowerment”. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A, February. 2018. <www.in-sightjournal.com/american-disease-super-empowerment>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Kirk Kirkpatrick and Rick Rosner on the “American Disease” and “Super Empowerment”.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/american-disease-super-empowerment.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Kirk Kirkpatrick and Rick Rosner on the “American Disease” and “Super Empowerment”.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A (February 2018). www.in-sightjournal.com/american-disease-super-empowerment.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Kirk Kirkpatrick and Rick Rosner on the “American Disease” and “Super Empowerment”‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 16.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/american-disease-super-empowerment>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Kirk Kirkpatrick and Rick Rosner on the “American Disease” and “Super Empowerment”‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 16.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/american-disease-super-empowerment.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Kirk Kirkpatrick and Rick Rosner on the “American Disease” and “Super Empowerment”.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 16.A (2018):February. 2018. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/american-disease-super-empowerment>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Kirk Kirkpatrick and Rick Rosner on the “American Disease” and “Super Empowerment” [Internet]. (2018, February; 16(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/american-disease-super-empowerment.

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In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2018-02-01

An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. (Part Five)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 16.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Twelve)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: February 1, 2018

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 6,856

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. She discusses: Arizona chapter of the Temple of Satan in the United States; differences of belief and punishment; reversing the reality as a thought experiment; irreligion and politics; the next steps for the humanist community and the Humanist party in the Philippines; being misunderstood; Atheist Republic consulate in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia; offending religious feelings; tacit theocracy and democracy; politics and gender/sex in the Philippines; Canadian beliefs in the supernatural; women dying without reproductive health rights implemented; birth rate; women as less than equal; expected challenges of an early politics party; dogma and catma; religion with men in power; compounded chauvinism of the religion; some women being used and not seeing it; the priest; the need to be tough as an irreligious leader; the use of humour; and the return to unquestioned authority.

Keywords: HAPI, humanism, Marissa Torres Langseth, PATAS, Philippines.

An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N.: Founder, PATAS; Founder, HAPI (Part Five)[1],[2],[3],[4]

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: I was talking to the Arizona chapter of the Temple of Satan in the United States.

Marissa Torres Langseth: Really? There’s a temple, okay.

Jacobsen: They have a set of beliefs. They follow them. I take them seriously. So, Michelle Short is the chapter leader and Stuart De Haan, or Stu, is the spokesperson. When I talked to them, they made an important and clear point to me about American culture.

In particular, the American Christian community such as the Evangelical community in relation to the larger culture. One of the things was when the Evangelical Christians don’t get 100% of their way 100% of the time, then they play the victim.

But they not only play the victim, they are the ones generally bullying others. So, they become the bully-victim. So, it’s a certain pathology. I agree with the observation. I see that you say you offended me and, therefore, I’m going to somehow demonize you or throw epithets at you.

The extreme example (from Islamists) “you hurt my feelings, so I’m going to shoot up the cartoonists.” You are now the perpetrators of open violence and the victims are the ones that are blamed.

But a larger phenomenon that I can generalize is that Christians in America get so much of their way so much of the time, down to the Pledge of Allegiance, that when they don’t get their way in even a single state or municipality within a state, they react.

Sometimes violently, other times judicially, or sometimes socially by bullying whether in person or online, as you’ve experienced both apparently.

Langseth: Yes, it’s funny. I’m laughing at these people really. I don’t get affected anymore. I used to be emotional and could not even sleep. But now, I’m laughing at them. In fact, David Silverman approached me.

A few years ago when I was in PATAS, I joined the Blackout Secular Rally. It’s like a colored rally. I was there. We had a table too. He approached me and asked if I could speak to the AA group at the convention.

I said, “I’ll get killed if I do that” [Laughing]. I made a lot of enemies already. He said, “If nobody is hating you, you’re not doing the right thing.” That’s what he said.

2. Jacobsen: That’s always a good response. If someone is getting mad at you for critiquing or doing something different, just say, “Look, I didn’t kill him. There’s no reason to crucify me for having a different set of beliefs.”

Langseth: Right, exactly, he is right because: why are these people trying to kill me? Why are they mad at me? I didn’t do anything wrong. I’m on social media promoting my society and coming out as an atheist.

But hey, I have a good marriage. I help a lot. Why are they angry with me? He said, because you’re doing the right thing, you’re doing right.

3. Jacobsen: Even take the reverse case: imagine if a humanist was offended, and many have a right to be, and they threaten violence, how would the authorities react?

They would probably be jailed. In some cultures, even many cultures, if the humanist was killed for threatening violence by the public as a citizen-based retribution for threatening violence, I suspect the authorities would be in favor of it.

Those thought experiments of reversing the examples are likely instructive as to the religious privilege that most mainline religions have in the cultures that they happen to inhabit or have grafted themselves onto.

Langseth: This is why when I was in the Philippines I told you that I had 2 security guards. I asked the Filipino humanists, “Aren’t you guys afraid if they find out we have this book that they will come after you?”

I said, “I will be going to the USA, so I’m not afraid. But what about you guys?” They said we’re not afraid.

Jacobsen: Why not?

Langseth: They’re not afraid. We use real names. Nobody uses a dummy account. We removed the dummy accounts in that book. Whatever you see in that book, they’re all real human beings. And they said they’re not afraid. I said, “I’m afraid for you.” I told them.

Jacobsen: I’m afraid for you [Laughing].

Langseth: That’s what I told them! They said, “You shouldn’t be afraid for us. We are going to be okay.” I’m glad because of the other atheists in Malaysia and Indonesia. They’re being persecuted. They’re going to get killed.

They’re being beheaded. They’re being thrown in prison. I’m glad in the Philippines that it’s not coming to that yet. I don’t know in the future. We are under the radar right now.

4. Jacobsen: When it comes to the politics in the Philippines, the outside image is that there’s a lot of chaos going on with President Duterte, who was voted in, but it might leave some humanists concerned, irreligious people in general, who are in the country or those who have loved ones in the country but who are not themselves in the country.

What has been your experience while there even though you are based in New York?

Langseth: While I was there, I was a little bit afraid when I went home. A little bit. Because I’m a Filipino, they’ll still admit me, but I was hoping that nobody will take me; the people there, because I am an activist.

But everything was so smooth. I had my own agenda. I had my own itinerary for how, where, and what I was going to do in the country. Everything went perfectly. It was so peaceful even in those towns. It was peaceful.

Of course, we did not go to Manila now. It may not be that way now with the chaos. So, this is my hunch. People from the US or from another country think that it is dangerous because of wrong info.

One example is my husband woke me up at 2 o’clock in the morning. Of course, there’s a 12-hour difference. He woke me up at 2 o’clock in the morning telling me not to go to Manila because ISIS was there.

So, that’s what he said because that’s what they heard from CNN. He’s worried because I’m in the Philippines. I’m going to Manila that day. So, out of curiosity, I called some people in Manila.

They said, “No, that’s wrong information.” There was a guy who lost lots of money in the resort world. Of course, the news was wrong. It was wrong. That was why people from the USA were mad at CNN for a while.

In fact, my husband was so mad with that also because he alerted me. He called me, and everybody at home, at 2 o’clock in the morning. That’s what I’m saying. When information is sent wrong, the people become angry. They become afraid.

That is the reason why. They were too afraid. To be honest with you, my husband didn’t go with me because he said they could kidnap me, his wife. They stole his wife. That’s why he didn’t come with me to the Philippines.

So, politically, my neighbourhood in the Philippines is quite peaceful. I haven’t experienced anything bad except for delays in flights, which is normal anywhere. The only thing that I’ve experienced is that the people don’t want to talk about politics.

The taxi drivers, they’re like, “Let’s not talk about Duterte,” because there’s some fear over there. I sense some fear. One of our drivers, we always hire drivers in a van to tour us around. He was the chief of the Filipino police in the area.

He didn’t want to talk about Duterte. So, they were fearful to talk about him. With Marcos, nobody can talk about Marcos. Of course, everything is positive if you need to talk about the previous president.

That they have done good things and some new things, such as the windmills. So, there is some form of fear there. That people don’t want to talk about the leaders in the country.

5. Jacobsen: Looking forward to the humanist community within the Philippines, there has been a discussion between us about a humanist party, a political platform from which to make humanism public and more widely accepted within the Philippines.

How is this next step going to play out in your mind?

Langseth: As far as I have gathered, we have to apply. We had discussed it a long time ago, maybe 2 or 3 years ago. We have to apply, permission of action. Then of course, when you register groups such as HAPI, FF, and LGBT groups, we lump ourselves together.

There’s always strength in numbers and diversity. So, if all of us can collaborate, cooperate with each other, that is feasible. People are waking up. They’re seeing that there are alternatives to religion.

These political parties are the best way to come out as a humanist, having parties. It’s GLAD. It’s a political party for the LGBT. It’s one of the avenues where they came out.

6. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, you are misunderstood outside of the HAPI group and even within it. Why?

Langseth: It’s because people are insecure about the leadership. I’ve been leading them since its inception. I have retired. Even as a retiree, I’m still being misunderstood. I could be wrong. But maybe, it’s because of the lack of organizational skills or lack of confidence within the group.

And it seems I am being hounded out; although, they cannot do that because I am the founder. It’s that I feel they are so insecure. They feel insecure about themselves.

Jacobsen: What about from outside of the group?

Langseth: From outside, so far, it is better now. In fact, modesty aside, this is what’s going on. People will say we want to join the group because of you, because of me.

The other people in the group thought that that was wrong. That they would join because of me. I said, “Why not? What’s wrong with that? If people see you as an inspiration the people in Bacolod.”

She said she made HAPI for children because I had inspired her. There’s another one in another city. For her, I am the light of the HAPI group. Without me, it might go downhill. A few of them are telling me that.

Some of the officers have seen it and felt insecure because of how these people see me. They cannot lead. This is the reason why I even removed myself from the HAPI leadership group, so that they can lead.

At the same token, the same people are complaining because the board of trustees are not even responding to their issues. So, what’s going on with our group? All societies have flaws, have issues, but this is common in the Filipino community.

This is my second society. The reason why I cannot leave fully even if I’m retired. I’m still watching over them because I did not want it to go downhill when I leave because that’s what happened with my first group, my first society, which was called PATAS.

The leaders now think that I’m micromanaging or that I’m not a leader. Now, I’m a ‘divider.’ I divide them. You think I would do that? You think I would divide my own group? Of course not.

This is the reason why I said, “Why are they misunderstanding me? Is it a deliberate misunderstanding me or to make me respond to them or to irk me or something that?” I don’t know.

But I am sure that they misunderstood me because of the posting. But I cannot help these people who will tell me you are our inspiration to our group, to our lives. Is there something wrong with that?

Jacobsen: No, I see nothing wrong with being an inspiration for a group.

Langseth: A real leader would inspire people. If you are a good leader, you will inspire them to do more, not less. And this is why when I retired, I made HAPI-SHADE. I made that because it’s to augment our activities.

In fact, it is also my strategy, so that in case the location or a specific chapter has no meet up, the HAPI-SHADE will have a regular meet up. Because they always do that. They always have children coming in and teaching them.

So, that’s part of HAPI as a whole in general. So, why did the people think of it as a divisive strategy? I’ve been a leader for so many years. There are strategies that we need to do in order for our society to survive and that was my strategy.

It was never to divide; it was never to compete with anybody. In fact, it’s to augment the activities because some of these people think we’re only volunteers. We’ll do it once a year or once a month, or whenever we are not working.

But that should not be right. When you are a volunteer at a specific time, you should volunteer. That’s me; I’m Westernized. If you volunteer, you should do it once a week, or maybe one hour a week or once a month. A society cannot survive with a once a year event. It is not a society, it’s not an activist group. It’s the HAPI group, once a Years because they think they’re only volunteers and that attitude irks me.

Jacobsen: Where else do you feel misunderstood within the group?

Langseth: For now, that’s all. Before, it was bad. During the PATAS days, back in 2013, it was bad. I was not only misunderstood, but they were voting things. They were making stories about me, which were bad.

But that all went away because they weren’t true. But this time, this is what is bugging me. That misunderstanding that I am dividing them, that I am making my own events to divide them. And that’s not true at all.

7. Jacobsen: Also, off-tape we were talking about some things in the news such as the case with the Atheist Republic consulate in Kuala Lumpur in Malaysia.

Langseth: Yes.

Jacobsen: There are legitimate fears around “being hunted down” by the authorities based on the statement by the minister, as it is an Islamic country. If you look at HAPI’s case, if it became more known, what are some of the fears there for you or for the group?

Langseth: I am sure that is a legitimate fear. This is why we have to take down an article about what’s going on with the Atheist Republic in Malaysia. Because somebody wrote an article, it was on our page.

We had to take it down. That legitimate fear is because we are getting known already and there is a plan of making a party, a humanist party, in the future. If we become known, I’m sure.

They are going to hunt down the founder. Because that is the founder’s fault, why did she make that? What is happening in Malaysia? They are looking for Armin because he’s the founder, even though he’s based out of Canada, in Vancouver.

In fact, Armin told me before that he had a lot of death threats already. And even before that incident, he had a lot of death threats. How much more now? So, that is legitimate. It could spread to the Philippines.

Because our government is also somewhat corrupt. Malaysia is mostly Islamic. The Philippines is mostly Catholic, and the CBCP. If the CBCP will find out about HAPI, I’m sure they’re going to put a price on my head.

But again, I’m glad I am here. I am fortunate that I am here in America. They cannot touch me. But I am afraid for the people in the Philippines, really. This is the reason why I asked them about this book.

If someone can get a hold of that book, they can be hunted down by the CBCP, the Catholic Bishop Society in the Philippines. They also hunted Carlos for showing up in the church holding up something that offended their feelings.

8. Jacobsen: What did they mean by offended religious feelings? What did they mean by that? Why is it illegitimate?

Langseth: During the time of the Spanish regime, there was a law about that. I forgot what number, because it’s been there forever. There is a law that if you offend the religious feelings of these friars and clergy, then you can be put to jail.

They think that a person like Carlos who went to a church, has done something wrong. Has done something that will offend them because of the sarcasm. One of those friars in the Spanish regime. He had a lot of women anyways.

Jacobsen: (Laughter) Ah yes, the height of hypocrisy, again.

Langseth: There you go, it’s ongoing. It’s still ongoing because he is not out of the woodwork; he’s not out of danger yet, Carlos. He could still go back to jail. He was in jail for a few days. That was way back in 2011.

Jacobsen: This is for offending religious feelings?

Langseth: Yes, sir. He was in jail.

Jacobsen: As a Canadian, that is remarkable.

Langseth: Again, call me in the Philippines.

9. Jacobsen: Only in the Philippines. Do you consider the Philippines a tacit theocracy?

Langseth: What do you mean? It’s a sham democracy [Laughing].

Jacobsen: Religion is so dominant, and has so much political, social, and cultural sway, so as to render it as if a theocratic society without being a formal theocratic society as you might find in explicit theocratic societies in some Islamic countries, for instance.

Langseth: Maybe, it’s akin to being theocratic in a way because the problem is that these politicians, every time they want to be voted on, then they would go to church. They would ask for the help of these priests to promote them.

Because the people will believe them, they will believe the priests. They will vote for whoever is being recommended by the church.

10. Jacobsen: Is it more often men than not?

Langseth: More men? Of course, it’s 90 percent men. The CBPC is 100 percent men.

Jacobsen: There you go.

Langseth: There are no women there. It’s misogynistic. Not only that, it’s akin to theocratic because there are no women. I have not heard of a bishop who is a woman in the Philippines. Maybe, in other cultures, but in the Philippines, I haven’t heard of any.

These people, I don’t understand. Whenever these priests say you have to vote for this person, they will vote for them. They will believe the priest. This is why I get mad with even my classmates nowadays.

It’s so frustrating to me. They will go to church to pray for their loved one who is sick. I say, “Why don’t you call the hospital? It’s the 21st century.” They still believe in this bullshit.

11. Jacobsen: Even in Canada, I do know probably 2/5ths of the population believes in a literal devil, and then some portion believes in the efficacy of exorcism to cure you of a non-problem.

Langseth: Boy, really?

Jacobsen: I find that interesting. When you’re pointing out that the politicians will go to the religious authorities, the priests, to ask for help to get elected, you have a mix of politics and religion at a social level, which then leads to a nearly 100 percent male political leadership with the backing of the Roman Catholic Church.

So, does this also reflect, the “misogyny” in feminist terms, the patriarchal nature of the Abrahamic faiths and their mixing up with politics? Now, modern religious apologists argue for women’s rights in their scriptures (fair enough and a noble effort), but, of course, only in the light of the women’s rights movements.

Langseth: That is the reason why the RH still, the planned parenthood bill, they said it was approved already after 15 years. It has been approved; it has not been implemented. Because some priests, they are holding back the implementation because it’s a sin and so on.

12. Jacobsen: The bottom line is women are suffering because it’s not being implemented. Hell, women are dying because it’s not being implemented.

Langseth: Exactly, not only that, there’s overpopulation. We are 100 million now in the Philippines. 100 million.

Jacobsen: What’s the birth rate?

Langseth: I’m not sure right now, but it is high and the death rate is pretty high. I don’t have the stats right now.

Jacobsen: According to Google, the 2015 birth rate is 2.94. It has declined from the 1960 rate, which was about 7.5 to 8 per woman. As I look at the research that has been done internationally, it shows over and over again.

If women have a choice in reproduction, the number goes to a healthier replacement rate and the health of the country on all metrics rises, the empowerment of women is the main contributor to the development of societies. Religions, more often than not, hinder this, unfortunately.

Langseth: Absolutely, I have read a book by Judith Hand. It’s about women’s empowerment. And yes, you’re right. If women are the leaders, we have a better society. But ever since the Bible, there’s little to no mention of a woman in leadership.

Jacobsen: Not many, and if so it is as a sidekick, basically, to the superheroes in the Bible.

Langseth: Or being raped.

13. Jacobsen: Or being comparatively sold for the value of property or animals, if lucky, or being compared to slaves and property in, for instance, the 10th Commandment in Exodus, this is consistent.

I know there are sophisticated theologians who read more in between in the lines than most do, but those are few and far between. Most people don’t read it that way. Most people take it as a manual for life and they don’t even read all of it if they do.

Langseth: Right, there’s even more work to do. We have a lot of work to do. Judith Hand is the author of a book about women’s empowerment called Women, Power and the Biology of Peace. She is an author about a book I read it in 2012. We have a lot of work to do.

I don’t think I’m going to see humanism in my lifetime be in a position where there’s more power. I’m afraid I will not be able to see that. But I’m trying my best. Godless Grace, this was launched in New York City. It was made by David Orenstein.

He is also my friend. Godless Grace, there’s a lot of people there. He interviewed a lot of humanists and atheists who have done good in their country, in their location, and in their locality. Our hope is in the Humanist Party.

14. Jacobsen: As with most early political parties, they will undergo definite challenges in original formation, in maintenance and growth.

Langseth: That is expected. The growing pains.

Jacobsen: [Laughing] I expect that.

Langseth: The growing pains are terrible, sometimes.

Jacobsen: I suspect this would be greater for a religious party in a religiously dominated country.

Langseth: We expect that. These people are bright. Each person has their own opinion, their own interpretation. This is why it’s difficult to group them, to herd them. Herding them is difficult because they are all thinking.

In general, the religious people are told how it is and what to say, what their values and stances are. It is easy. But the irreligious, they are intelligent, like you. You have your own opinion of something else, which is different from the next irreligious person.

Other people have other opinions. So, if there are 10 people in the party, you will have 10 opinions. If you have a religious party, you have 1 or 2 opinions, that’s it.

15. Jacobsen: I heard this called the split between dogma and catma. One, and you got it, is about dogma for those reading is there is a single doctrine with maybe minor room for interpretation and wiggle room for interpretation, which people believe on faith for the most part and critical thinking is discouraged.

Everyone will believe it as a whole. The catma is a set of meta-beliefs that are fuzzy. You don’t know what is the case, but you have probabilistic opinions about what may or may not be the case on specific issues.

Langseth: Dogma, I get it. It’s difficult. Building these societies was difficult, how much more if you have a formal Humanist Party in the Roman Catholic Philippines? If I had gossiping among intelligent people in my own group, considering who they are, some of them said, “I’m not ready for that.”

Someone said I might get killed. There’s also fear there. One of them is an intelligent person. I won’t mention who he is, but I invited him to join us to become a board of trustees because he has no problems except to spend his money.

But he told me that him and other people are fighting over this. They are having issues already because they are anti-Duterte or they are pro-Duterte. The problem with some humanists is they let politics get into their system. We have a few like that.

Although, this person is talking about Islam as a formal HAPI member, but he’s in the group. If there was no Duterte, there would be no problem, maybe, but, of course, there are always problems.

What I am saying is people have to get off that, their personal issues. This is one of the many reasons why another society has been disrupted, has been dissolved. Because of personality clashes about politics.

There was one time it was about to disrupt HAPI. I had to put my foot forward and set my foot down and said, “We will not discuss Duterte in this room.” There was a lot of complaints coming from anti-Duterte and pro-Duterte.

They asked me who I’m siding with. I said, “I’m not siding with Duterte. I have no voice. I am a US citizen.” That is the height of chaos if HAPI was stopped. I got some backlash, of course, but I told them you are not allowed to talk about that in this group.

Of course, I warned them because some people will go in the HAPI forum and talk about Duterte. Then they will fight. And if nobody can stop that, I will stop that. I’m strict. I said, “This is not a crowd for politics. This is humanism. This is a humanist arena. If you cannot let go of your political allegiance, you might as get out.”

That’s the reason why it stopped. I had complaints from foreigners saying your group is becoming anti-Duterte or pro-Duterte. That’s the reason why I had to stop that. People complained to me that your group is becoming pro-Duterte and anti-Duterte.

I said that we have to stop talking about this in the group. That’s the reason why we’re still here. The other societies are gone and dissolved because of that, regarding personality clashes regarding Duterte and politics. So, it helped that I am from the USA.

Jacobsen: When I observe the leaders of religions, more often than not, the ones in power and authority, they’re men.

Langseth: Of course.

Jacobsen: Why is this the case? Not only why is this the case, but, how is this the case?

Langseth: Because the Philippines is patriarchal. We recognize men as the chief or the master or the commander of the household. That’s why it’s always men and they think that they’re better than women.

16. Jacobsen: Do you think there’s that certain compounded chauvinism where you have the male chauvinism that many women will perpetuate as well, but also the religious chauvinism of whatever religion happens to be in dominance? For instance, a Catholic male will have a certain air about him, especially the leadership.

Langseth: One of the many reasons why I did not marry a Filipino is that being mismatched is common in the Philippines. They think because they are men, then they are better than women.

Not only that, the way they talk to women is condescending. I had experiences with Filipino men. I always fight with them. I’m not for Filipino men, nope. It’s from religion; it’s from when they were born. They see it’s the father or the men running the show. In fact, when I was small, I saw my father beating my mother.

So, it was normal for men to beat women, our mothers. Of course, within myself as a child, because they think they are the head of the family, they always think they are the ruler or the chief of the household.

It’s all because that’s what they were taught and what was told to them in the second Sunna in the Quran or in the Philippines, men, even Duterte is vocal, and open, about him having a girlfriend besides having a wife. Is that right?

Jacobsen: I didn’t know he was taking the French leadership route.

Langseth: He was proud that he has a girlfriend. Showing off the girlfriend and in fact he even said, “Why? Who doesn’t have a girlfriend? What rich man doesn’t have a girlfriend on the side?”

I said to my husband, “He doesn’t have a girlfriend. This is how Filipinos portray themselves. Their machismo.”

Jacobsen: Would the word “weak” fit?

Langseth: They are over-exhibiting their masculinity. Their machismo.

Jacobsen: Overcompensating?

Langseth: Yes, that’s the word. They’re only overcompensating. Because, I hate to say it, but these Filipino men are not pretty. They are overcompensating.

Jacobsen: There’s no chemistry. There’s no foreplay at all to these things, right? So, the men’s own overcompensation creates a cycle of bad relationship experiences for them, where they may then even further overcompensate?

Langseth: And women cannot see that.

Jacobsen: Right. That’s sad.

Langseth: Of course, we did not see it before. I saw it now.

Jacobsen: That’s also with Duterte, with the girlfriend or the French president with the girlfriend. The girlfriend: she’s not seeing it. They don’t see they’re being used.

Langseth: That’s what I’m saying. Women, they don’t see it. I didn’t see it before until now I’m seeing. This is what is wrong with most Filipinos, not all. They just, they think it is acceptable to have that thinking, to have a girlfriend on top of your wife.

They think it’s acceptable in society; it’s condoned by society, by the Filipinos, which is wrong. Nothing happens without political precedent.

Jacobsen: Or JFK.

Langseth: JFK. Look at JFK, they cannot even show that they have a girlfriend. In the Philippines, it’s acceptable. What’s wrong with that? What’s wrong with us? What’s wrong with Filipinos?

17. Jacobsen: It shows a culture of maybe enforced morals around sexuality that makes any deviancy so bad as to need it to be not talked about and, therefore, very “hush hush,” very secretive. And that can create a lot of perversions.

Langseth: It’s sad because it’s still happening and this is the 21st century. It should have gone already. It’s still there. This is why humanism is one route, one avenue to change that thinking and show that it is wrong.

Of course, you can say, “Humanism is also good because it takes away the pain. You don’t want people to be in pain. Humanism is trust in humanity as human beings.” You don’t say, “That is fine. There is a 2nd life.”

They all think of the second life. In the second life, it will be better. This is why they accept bad things right now because they think the second life will be better. Look at the prisoners, as we discussed, they are over 80 to 90 percent religious in prison.

Because they think that it’s alright to do bad things right now because the second life is better.

18. Jacobsen: It’s the similar syndrome of, maybe not similar but, an associated syndrome of committing “sin”: go to the priest, tell the priest through confession, the priest blesses you, and that confession and blessing absolves you from blame.

So, it is an easy out. I only pose this as an idea, as a loose theoretical framework of explanation, but not a certainty, a “catma” in other words. The idea that the easy out, whether it’s through confession or a belief in an afterlife.

Thinking, “Jesus has my back,” that thing. It may breed people who are on the fence for criminal behaviour to go the next step to full criminal behaviour because Jesus has their back or they can get their easy out from confession and so on.

Langseth: Exactly, that’s what’s happening. The story isn’t right. People do a lot of bad things that they are going to do because hey they can be absolved and go to the priest and after that you can start all over again. Or when you die, there will be Jesus and ask for forgiveness.

19. Jacobsen: My sense is from you, from others who are irreligious leaders, in the irreligious world, are people who are tough. Because you have to deal with higher standards.

It’s funny on the playing field of real life because you’re considered an automatic out in a lot of social life. So, there’s that. It makes it a little bit difficult and a little bit tenser, so you almost have to be a tiny bit on your toes.

You have to have your teeth out a tiny bit all the time, psychologically, just in case. And I feel that leaders in the irreligious movement often have to have that. Even to the point of having to call out for militant atheism, I believe Richard Dawkins did in that Ted Talk.

I believe he should have rephrased it. So for those reading this, if you plan on leading in the irreligious world in general, you have to be tough. It’s just part of the job.

Langseth: Yes. Not only do you have to be tough, but you have to show them that you’re an example of true Humanism. For example, I’ve been married for 22 years. They said, “Why are you still married for 22 years when your husband is not a humanist?? I said, “Why not? We respect each other. We love each other. That’s enough.”

Jacobsen: That’s all it takes.

Langseth: That’s enough. We don’t fight about politics. He’s voted Trump. I didn’t vote for Trump, but he doesn’t Trump for so many things. But he voted for him anyway. What I’m saying is, you don’t get politics and religion into your system or your married life or your personal life.

Believe me, there will be a lot of broken homes. But because of the respect and love, we’re still together. For example, I will not condone any of my members to be girlfriends of married men.

But for me, I cannot condone that. That’s not humanism because you intend to hurt other people. I don’t condone for my group members to do bad things because we are supposed to be examples of good deeds.

We should do good things to people, not bad things. We should be an example. Especially the officers, they should be an example of what a true humanist is; not hypocrisy. To say, “I’m a humanist,” but then you’re doing a lot of hypocrisy.

That’s why we have to be tough as leaders. We could get a lot of bashing, of course. I get a lot of bashing, but I laugh at it now.

20. Jacobsen: It also helps to have a good sense of humour about all this stuff.

Langseth: Yes.

Jacobsen: You argue for women’s reproductive rights. A religious leader has a spasm. Usually, he foams at the mouth. It comes out later they are involved in some sex scandal. You’ve read about the similar cases. I’ve read about similar cases too.

Where it happens and life has a certain humour about it, if you take the right angle, at appropriate times, there is humour.

Langseth: Precisely, we have to have humour in our lives. We can’t be serious all the time. Laughter is still the best medicine.

Jacobsen: That’s right.

Langseth: I mean it still is. Of all the drugs in the world, laughter is the best medicine. When I went to the Philippines, I laughed a lot. I laughed a lot of my sister and my brothers, we laughed a lot.

I am pro-LGBT because they’re humans. We have to respect them too. Of course, and because, my sister is a lesbian. But respecting human beings, it’s not in words. It has to be in action too.

People, they want to preach, the priests, but they do other things. They do bad things on the side. And that is ironic for them to do that.

Jacobsen: And it goes back to that unquestioned authority given to them.

Langseth: Unfortunately, the Filipinos don’t question their bosses; anybody with authority. They don’t question.

References

  1. Angeles, M. (2012, August 20). World Trade Center ‘cross’ causes religious dispute among Fil-Ams. Retrieved from http://news.abs-cbn.com/global-filipino/08/20/12/world-trade-center-cross-causes-religious-dispute-among-fil-ams.
  2. Atheist Republic. (2014, September 10). Marissa Torres Langseth: Freethinking groups can achieve a common goal. Retrieved from http://www.atheistrepublic.com/gallery/marissa-torres-langseth-freethinking-groups-can-achieve-common-goal.
  3. Comelab, M. (2012, May 26). Filipino Atheists Becoming More Active. Retrieved from http://mail.reasonism.org/main-content/item/2689-filipino-atheists-becoming-more-active.
  4. Duke, B. (2011, April 28). The Pope’s gonna have a cow. Catholic Philippines gains its first atheist society. Retrieved from http://freethinker.co.uk/2011/04/28/the-pope%E2%80%99s-gonna-have-a-cow-catholic-philippines-gains-its-first-atheist-society/.
  5. French, M. (2017, March 5). The New Atheists of the Philippines. Retrieved from https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/03/new-atheists-philippines/518175/.
  6. Langseth, M.T. (2011, June 1). Atheism in the Philippines: A Personal Story. Retrieved from https://thehumanist.com/news/hnn/atheism-in-the-philippines-a-personal-story.
  7. Langseth, M.T. (2017, April 14). FROM SUPERSTITION TO REASON: JOURNEYS TO HUMANISM/ATHEISM BY HAPI. Retrieved from http://thescientificatheist.com/author/marissa/.
  8. Langseth, M.T. (2013, March 20). Kwentong Kapuso: Registered nurses and the alphabet soup of nursing. Retrieved from http://www.gmanetwork.com/news/news/pinoyabroad/300110/kwentong-kapuso-registered-nurses-and-the-alphabet-soup-of-nursing/story/.
  9. Meyer, E. (2017, March 7). Atheist missionaries are spreading humanist ideals in the Philippines. Retrieved from https://wwrn.org/articles/46700/.
  10. Universal Life Church Monstery. (2017, March 27). Filipino Atheists Pulling from the Christian Missionary Playbook. Retrieved from https://www.themonastery.org/blog/2017/03/filipino-atheists-using-the-christian-missionary-playbook/.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Founder, PATAS; Founder, HAPI.

[2] Individual Publication Date: February 1, 2018 at www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-five; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2018 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Post-Master’s degree, Certificate for Adult Nurse Practitioner with prescriptive privileges – College of Mount Saint Vincent, NY, USA; M.S.N., Adult Health, CUNY, NYC, USA; B.S.N., University of San Carlos, Cebu, Philippines.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Marissa Torres Langseth.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. (Part Five) [Online].February 2018; 16(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-five.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, February 1). An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. (Part Five). Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-five.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. (Part Five). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A, February. 2018. <www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-five>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. (Part Five).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-five.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. (Part Five).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A (February 2018). www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-five.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. (Part Five)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 16.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-five>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. (Part Five)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 16.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-five.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. (Part Five).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 16.A (2018):February. 2018. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-five>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. (Part Five) [Internet]. (2018, February; 16(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-five.

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© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2018-01-22

An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. (Part Four)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 16.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Twelve)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: January 22, 2018

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,579

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. She discusses: Societies and women’s dress; fear for women Millennials; the Humanist party; policies and platform recommendations of the party; normalization of humanism and ordinary humanists; demonization of the non-believer population in America in general; humanism and politics; non-religious invocations; emotionally potent lies; risk of social suicide; and social ostracism.

Keywords: HAPI, humanism, Marissa Torres Langseth, PATAS, Philippines.

An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N.: Founder, PATAS; Founder, HAPI (Part Four)[1],[2],[3],[4]

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: If you look at the lists of restrictions on women, it’s quite obvious. I mean just read the text by implication if you’re being mild about it. ‘Thy ox, thy ass, thy wife, thy manservant, thy maidservant’ and so on, right there, you have a wife as property in one of the Ten Commandments.

But then also in terms of what is considered appropriate dress for women, as if society at large has a say in how a woman should dress, right?

Langseth: Yes, I couldn’t understand that before. Why are the men allowed to control women’s bodies? It’s because of religion. A woman is supposed to be subservient and submissive to their husbands. That’s what religion taught them.

2. Jacobsen: And my fear, even within my own generation, the Millennial, the women coming out of these traditions with very comprehensive worldviews in practice, in theory, in perspective.

Even if coming now to the label of secular or free thinker and so on, will harbour the same self-doubt and idea, that they are to be of service to the men in their lives, especially in intimate settings such as probably one of the most important decisions a person can make in their life, their partner, their marriage partner or spouse. 

This stuff takes a long time to decode and unwind.

Langseth: Yes, it will take centuries, maybe. But it’s happening now. I don’t think I can see it in my lifetime, but if you promote humanism with me and all of us promoting this, that we are all equal.

There are human rights and all of these humanistic values and ethical values, the next generation, maybe not yours, will be a lot better. But we’ll never know.

3. Jacobsen: Are there any topics that you would like to explore?

Langseth: I’m excited about this Humanist party. If we have humanist constituents in the Philippines, we will be known better. They will see us better even if we lose the first few years. This is where my excitement is coming from right now, to be honest with you.

4. Jacobsen: What are some of its policies and platform recommendations?

Langseth: It’s all about human rights, LGBT rights, and women’s rights. Of course, there is democracy in the Philippines, but now it’s becoming a dictatorship by Duterte. We’re more about the promotion of reason and critical thinking like we are educating our children.

If each person in the Philippines is a critical thinker and will not even mention religion, we are better off. And of course, the Churches will close down because nobody will go there anymore. Everybody will go to the library.

This is why we have libraries. I have a library in my house in the Philippines for HAPI. But I’m excited that if this will push through, there will be more awareness in the Philippines of our humanist constituencies.

Not even popularity, it will open a lot of minds and this platform will become bigger. It will become bigger than what we have now and they will no longer be afraid to come out. This is what I’m hoping for.

5. Jacobsen: So, is it a process of normalization of humanism and ordinary humanists?

Langseth: Yes, something like that. But I hope this will push through; we have a plan already. Because as law if we are always under the radar, if we are hiding all the time, like our HAPI Con, it was small.

Few people knew about it. Even if they knew, they were afraid to attend because they think it’s a sin to be a humanist or to get out of their religion. And if we have a party and it’s open, out in the open, people will become bolder to come out. And I am sure one of these days, this will happen. The first few Years we will lose but that’s fine. We will win eventually.

6. Jacobsen: In America, there is a lot of demonization of the humanist population, the non-believer population in general.

Langseth: Yes, in general, in fact, I have met a candidate somewhere in the South. He became my friend. He is running not as a congressman, but in the municipal elections or something like this.

He said he is an atheist, but he cannot tell them he is an atheist. He said he told everyone he’s a humanist. And when you ask what is a humanist, it’s like a vague explanation.

7. Jacobsen: Yes, it’s like when you’re talking to the kids. It’s like the “human-” and the “-ism,” thinking, “I believe in people.” Another thinking, “Oh, I believe in people too.” That’s exactly what it is.

Langseth: Yes, something like that [Laughing]. Because he’s afraid that he will not win if he comes out as an atheist. This is pervasive.

Jacobsen: Yes, it’s the same in America. Statistically, there has to be a lot of atheists in political office.

Langseth: I’m sure.

8. Jacobsen: I’ve been in contact with one politician. It’s a woman. She’s an atheist. And she did an invocation. It was an irreligious statement of ‘let’s all get together and be together.’

A latter middle age, white, overweight Southern accented man got up and made the statement that the policy says that this is going to be an opening prayer to a God – emphasis on God – and he then began his opening prayer to overturn the invocation by stating that ‘God, we ask your forgiveness for our pride, et cetera.’

It was passive aggressive. I thought he was a prima donna about it. In America, the main activists for women’s reproductive rights in light of the Trump administration like, for instance, the Global Gag order, have been women.

Because it more directly impacts them. Women seem more acutely aware of it. My hope is that at least in the non-belief sector of America that people won’t have to be so closeted. That it will be a dual-gender phenomenon, I hope.

Langseth: Yes, it’s like cats. Herding cats is a daunting task. I said that to myself a long time ago in 2011 when I made PATAS. But if we have loud voices, it will become louder even if we are cats.

That’s what I’m saying. If you’re standing for what is good, even if we are cats and we become more vocal, they can hear us. Maybe, they will hear us. I have some successes because I am vocal.

In 2010, we had a high school reunion in Cebu, Philippines. I told them, “I am an atheist. I do not like prayers. I will not tolerate any prayers in front of me.” True enough, I got my wish. There were no prayers. Only flag raising and singing of our national anthem.

There were no prayers. Ask me why.

Jacobsen: Why?

Langseth: Because I paid, mostly [Laughing]. Which means that you are powerful when having knowledge plus money. If you can afford it, right? Look at that, I spent 2,000 dollars on that reunion in 2010. My husband was even with me.

There were no prayers because I told them there are no prayers, I don’t believe in prayers. And that’s a high school reunion. 80% of my classmates; they’re still religious. But they respected my wishes because I’m the one paying for the thing.

So, that you are powerful when you have the means. I would not be able to do this thing if I didn’t have the means. Look at PATAS, when it was launched, the launch was in an open space. We call it Lunetta Park, which is in Manila.

What they did was they went to Lunetta Park with a banner saying, “Philippines Atheist and Agnostic Society,” PATAS in short. We had books because I sent them a lot of books. Richard Dawkins books and Hitchens’ books and Sagan’s books, a lot of lovely books that are not religious.

Because you cannot find these books in Manila, in the Philippines. I told them I could not sleep when they launched when they had that launching in Lunetta Park because I was afraid they would get killed.

Jacobsen: That is a legitimate fear for many people, so many non-believers.

Langseth: Would you believe nobody got killed?

Jacobsen: I will happily believe that.

Langseth: I sent them a lot of funding for their dinner and for their nice things so they’ll stay there for a while. They said, of course, a lot of people asked them what is atheism? What is that? What is that all about? Because a lot of people in the Philippines are ignorant about atheism and about Humanism.

9. Jacobsen: And why is that? Because some pastors, preachers, and priests are telling emotionally potent lies about the character and inherent nature of people who do not believe in their doctrines.

Langseth: Right, these charlatans are everywhere.

Jacobsen: Yes, a man in a dress getting mad at transgenders or trans people.

Langseth: Yes, and in fact, I always get into debates online because I am vocal. We had one of the earlier debate forums. It was “Is there a God or not?” And I was one of the admins.

This was before I made PATAS. My goodness, Filipinos were killing me online. “You’re a devil woman,” “you’re a bride of Satan,” “you’re a whore,” and so on. It was based on “Why are you doing this?” And some of them are my friends.

At least 1/3rd of my friends unfriended me.

10. Jacobsen: That’s the thing. It’s social suicide to reject the dominant culture, the dominant mythology in a lot of cases.

Langseth: Right, and of course, when someone in our forum says, “I lost my friends because of this. I say that’s not new to me. I lost about 1/3rd of them. And some of them are close to me. Some of them are in New York City.”

Jacobsen: Do you ever run into them?

Langseth: Yes, they blocked me.

11. Jacobsen: It’s not only social ostracism from a secular point of view, but it’s probably from their point of view preventing Satan from entering their lives? Not necessarily you, but the influence of the dark one?

Langseth: [Laughing] My God, I’ll tell you something. I recently reconnected with a co-worker in the Philippines. His name is Bello. You reminded me of this. When I reconnected with him, he read about me in my information.

So, he read that I made this and did that. He said, “You are the anti-Christ.” Because according to his religion, there is an anti-Christ coming from America. And he said that must be me!

Jacobsen: Of course, not only are you the anti-Christ, but the anti-Christ coming from America; of course, Jesus Christ is coming from toast.

Langseth: [Laughing] coming from toast! And this man, I knew him personally because we used to work together! It’s funny; he believed I am the anti-Christ from America. He even blocked me.

He sent me a threatening note before he blocked me. Before that, we were debating too. He was debating me. Of course, he cannot reconvert me. Because he can’t reconvert me, he blocked me. He mentioned that his church knows about me now.

They’re following me already [Laughing]. I was laughing.

Jacobsen: I’m hearing the Jaws terror music when they’re following you.

Langseth: Yes! This man, I knew him from before. It’s so ironic because this man is not even clean as a person. He loves women. He’s married, but he likes women. He flirts with a lot of women. Now, he’s telling me that I am the bad one. That I am the evil one.

References

  1. Angeles, M. (2012, August 20). World Trade Center ‘cross’ causes religious dispute among Fil-Ams. Retrieved from http://news.abs-cbn.com/global-filipino/08/20/12/world-trade-center-cross-causes-religious-dispute-among-fil-ams.
  2. Atheist Republic. (2014, September 10). Marissa Torres Langseth: Freethinking groups can achieve a common goal. Retrieved from http://www.atheistrepublic.com/gallery/marissa-torres-langseth-freethinking-groups-can-achieve-common-goal.
  3. Comelab, M. (2012, May 26). Filipino Atheists Becoming More Active. Retrieved from http://mail.reasonism.org/main-content/item/2689-filipino-atheists-becoming-more-active.
  4. Duke, B. (2011, April 28). The Pope’s gonna have a cow. Catholic Philippines gains its first atheist society. Retrieved from http://freethinker.co.uk/2011/04/28/the-pope%E2%80%99s-gonna-have-a-cow-catholic-philippines-gains-its-first-atheist-society/.
  5. French, M. (2017, March 5). The New Atheists of the Philippines. Retrieved from https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/03/new-atheists-philippines/518175/.
  6. Langseth, M.T. (2011, June 1). Atheism in the Philippines: A Personal Story. Retrieved from https://thehumanist.com/news/hnn/atheism-in-the-philippines-a-personal-story.
  7. Langseth, M.T. (2017, April 14). FROM SUPERSTITION TO REASON: JOURNEYS TO HUMANISM/ATHEISM BY HAPI. Retrieved from http://thescientificatheist.com/author/marissa/.
  8. Langseth, M.T. (2013, March 20). Kwentong Kapuso: Registered nurses and the alphabet soup of nursing. Retrieved from http://www.gmanetwork.com/news/news/pinoyabroad/300110/kwentong-kapuso-registered-nurses-and-the-alphabet-soup-of-nursing/story/.
  9. Meyer, E. (2017, March 7). Atheist missionaries are spreading humanist ideals in the Philippines. Retrieved from https://wwrn.org/articles/46700/.
  10. Universal Life Church Monstery. (2017, March 27). Filipino Atheists Pulling from the Christian Missionary Playbook. Retrieved from https://www.themonastery.org/blog/2017/03/filipino-atheists-using-the-christian-missionary-playbook/.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Founder, PATAS; Founder, HAPI.

[2] Individual Publication Date: January 22, 2018 at www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-four; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2018 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Post-Master’s degree, Certificate for Adult Nurse Practitioner with prescriptive privileges – College of Mount Saint Vincent, NY, USA; M.S.N., Adult Health, CUNY, NYC, USA; B.S.N., University of San Carlos, Cebu, Philippines.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Marissa Torres Langseth.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. (Part Four) [Online].January 2018; 16(A). Available from:  www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-four.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, January 22). An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. (Part Four). Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-four.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. (Part Four). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A, January. 2018. <www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-four>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-four.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A (January 2018). www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-four.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. (Part Four)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 16.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-four>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. (Part Four)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 16.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-four.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 16.A (2018):January. 2018. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-four>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. (Part Four) [Internet]. (2018, January; 16(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-four.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2018-01-15

An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. (Part Three)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 16.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Twelve)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: January 15, 2018

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,127

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. She discusses: controversial topics for non-belief in the Philippines and North America; jurisprudence and human nature; religious demographics of prisons; no life after death; justifications for the theistic and atheistic side; “cheap grace”; most violent criminals being men and human rights; and having the curtain pulled, so the afterlife can begin for believers; Marilyn vos Savant of Parade Magazine on Pascal’s Wager and religion; Richard Dawkins and the labelling of children; and the emphasis on women’s reproduction.

Keywords: HAPI, humanism, Marissa Torres Langseth, PATAS, Philippines.

An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N.: Founder, PATAS; Founder, HAPI (Part Three)[1],[2],[3],[4]

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, what are the most controversial topics with regards to non-belief in the Philippines and North America?

Marissa Torres Langseth: I would say it’s about the death penalty. For me, it is inhumane. Everyone has the right to prove that they’re innocent. With the death penalty, if these people are killed, that means that’s it. That’s the cessation of life and that is contrary to the quality of life.

With the death penalty, if these people are found guilty, I hope they’re guilty, then they’re killed. So, there is no more chance for rehabilitation. However, 30 to 50 percent of these criminals are recidivists.

That’s the reason why there’s the death penalty. To be honest with you, sometimes I go, I lean on making them stop. But how do we make them stop? For example, that case in Connecticut. It was in 1997.

I was on vacation in Bermuda when there were two thugs. They escaped from prison. They robbed a house. I could not forget because they got into my skin; these people burned the other people alive.

Heinous. How could somebody do that? And of course they were captured, these two criminals. Of course, they were guilty before and now. But how can we do something to make these people stop? In Norway or places in Scandinavia, in some of the places, the prisons are being closed because they don’t have criminals.

So why is it in North America we have too many criminals and in the Philippines, the prisons are outpouring with criminals, with prisoners? That is difficult, to be honest with you. It blows my mind how to stop them.

And now with Duterte, he is trying to kill everyone. My problem with that is with the people who are not guilty. Even if they are guilty, they still have this right. However, in the course of life, it will become exponential because what about the people around them? It’s not going to stop.

Because the family members will say, “Okay let’s avenge the life, avenge the killing of my brother and so on and so forth. That’s why it has got to stop, but I don’t think I have the answer to that. Although, I don’t like the death penalty.

If these people are like monsters like the case in Connecticut, how do we make them stop? Isolate them? Kill them? Even with the death penalty, it’s not even effective. There are still a lot of criminals.

2. Jacobsen: It’s a complex question about jurisprudence and human nature.

Langseth: Exactly, and human rights, but is it their right to take somebody’s life away?

Jacobsen: In some ways, if you violate a law – I’m not saying this is the way it is, but in some way, I can see the general principle apply where if you violate a law – or the right of another human being, then you revoke the equivalent right for yourself.

So if you steal, then you revoke your right to not have your stuff stolen. Recompense for the theft, for instance. Or if you kill, you lose your rights as a citizen, as a legal person, in a lot of ways when you’re in prison.

But then there are other questions that arise from the pipeline about: how much of this is hereditary? The openness and willingness to do harm to others or to only gain for oneself. So murder in the former example, theft in the latter.

Does this come from someone’s genetic endowment or more from the environment? And if it’s more the environment, then it raises questions about society. Or if it means more from hereditary means, then that raises questions about: how much then can we influence someone’s internal moral compass?

And what can we do then to make a society structured in such a way to bring about a statistically more peaceful situation? But then when it comes to jurisprudence, we come from a tacitly bureaucratic country, America in your case and Canada in mine.

And in each, they have the idea of vengeance or it’s a need to punish those that do wrong in a severe way, it shows in America, especially, and it shows in the Philippines. In the Scandinavian countries, which are much less religious, they don’t show that as much.

Langseth: Right. But you can kill in self-defense, for example, I will only kill if that guy is trying to kill me or if he’s trying to rape me; something like that. But otherwise, that’s beyond me. It’s difficult.

I’m not a lawyer, but that most of these people can be rehabilitated. However, on the other hand, when we rehabilitate them, the percentage is low and this is the reason why we have the death penalty, but still, it’s not stopping criminality.

3. Jacobsen: If you look at the statistics of criminals, the demographics of prisons, there might be confounding factors with regards to religious services reaching out to prisoners, but most people in prisons are religious.

Langseth: Yes, exactly, I was about to say that. Because, maybe, they believe that even if they kill, someone up there will say, “That’s okay. You can pray 20, and so on. Then you’ll be cleansed.” That’s the reason why it’s easy. Even in the Bible Belt, most of them have guns.

Because they think they have the right to kill because their God is behind them.

4. Jacobsen: There’s the stereotype of the Southerner going into the local gas station with a gun afraid that Obama will come personally and take it away from them.

Langseth: [Laughing] Yes, why is it that the most religious are the ones who will kill you right away? They also believe, most of them or 90% of them believe, in life after death. Even if they get killed with their guns, anyway, there’s life after death.

I’ll be better there. Or if they kill, they would say, “God will cleanse us anyway.” So, it’s not believed. Whereas an atheist would think that there’s no life after death, so I don’t want to kill and I don’t want to be killed.

5. Jacobsen: There are two justifications there. On the theistic side, there’s the idea of impulsivity being excused by the belief in a hereafter. On the atheistic side, there’s the excuse that life has no inherent meaning, therefore, human beings have no value.

Therefore, any violence or harm to them, except to oneself, has no meaning, so it doesn’t matter. Both of those cases lead to terrible harm. But I’ve never heard an adequate explanation as to why so many prisoners are overwhelmingly religious.

Langseth: Yes, they are. In Mexico, look at the killers, they have tattoos with Jesus Christ on their backs or crosses on their bodies – and they’re killers.

6. Jacobsen: It’s “cheap grace” in their terms: “I am forgiven, no matter what.”

Langseth: They believe they will be forgiven. That’s the issue there. This is why there’s double morality in the Philippines. They think that they can do anything, do something and they’ll be forgiven.

Look at these priests who are pedophiles, we have so many of them. I have heard a lot of horror stories. And this is because we’ll be forgiven and pray, and give Hail Marys, and they’ll be cleansed to start over again.

7. Jacobsen: I mean everyone, whether or not they know the numbers, intuitively understand that most of the violent criminals, sexual or physical or so on, are men. But I don’t see a common knowledge or wisdom that most of the criminals who are locked up are religious.

I don’t know why there is that disjunction. I feel as if religion gets an easy off there.

Langseth: Yes, that’s what they believe in; that’s it, yes.

Jacobsen: And in terms of human rights, to the main theme of most controversial topics in the Philippines and North America, we were talking in the past about how the main issue in the United States appears to be, almost, a tacit despising of human rights because they in some way provide a buffer against religious privilege.

Langseth: Yes, I worked in Saudi Arabia as a registered nurse. For them, life is nothing. It’s like this. There was one nurse who gave a patient the wrong medication. Of course, the patient died and the family said, “Alhamdulillah.” Life is nothing for them.

It’s a culture of death. They are looking forward to their death, in Saudi Arabia, the religious Muslims. I’ve seen it. This is why there are no lawsuits in Saudi Arabia for negligence for nurses or doctors who give the wrong diagnosis.

There is no such thing as that, like nothing. Only in America or of course in Europe, maybe. But in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, if you kill the patient, it’s Alhamdulillah. I’ve seen it all. I was in the ICU and this nurse forgot this patient’s oxygen.

Of course, the patient died. The family came and said, “Alhamdulillah.” Thanks be to God. That’s the answer. If that happened in the USA, there will be litigation; the nurse will be sued as well as the hospital.

Jacobsen: Yes, it’s a litigious culture.

Langseth: This is why it’s so different. In Roman Catholicism, it’s so different. They have this self-entitlement. They want everything done.

They want everything done even if the patient is already dying. You have to put in all the tubes in the world to keep them alive even if the patient is in pain and suffering. That’s fine, as long as they’re alive.

They prolong their agony. This is why I say the most religious suffer the most. But that is only in Christianity. In Islam, when they die, it’s so different. But they both believe in life after death.

This is why we have some of the terrorists they say they go to heaven and get 72 virgins. They are looking forward to that.

Jacobsen: The women less so.

Langseth: Yes, yes. One of my friends infiltrated a Mosque. What’s in the Mosque, they are lectured all about how you have to die because you go to heaven and have sex with 72 virgins. It’s brainwashing. And that’s why they look forward to their death.

8. Jacobsen: That goes to a theme. In one lens, these amount to mythologies. These mythologies are death-oriented. Anything death oriented will incorporate pain and suffering, and not in a Buddhist sense mind you.

This is a way to become more holy. Your body is a sacrament through suffering. So, in a lot of ways, these are almost ways of life and ethics of death worship in some ways.

Langseth: Yup.

Jacobsen: Because this is King Lear or The Taming of the Shrew, it’s a play, before the curtain is pulled and you have action and the real world starts: the afterlife.

Langseth: Right. And until now, I could not understand. I cannot fathom sometimes why people can believe. Even if you explain to them that when the body dies, everything dies and there’s no soul.

Even if there is a soul, the soul cannot touch you, cannot smell, cannot see. It’s nothing; it’s like air. They answer sometimes when I lecture to them about this. That it is fine; it’s better to believe than not to believe.

Jacobsen: That translates into “I’ve stopped thinking.”

Langseth: Yes. But then Pascal’s Wager, they are too afraid to not believe. It’s better to believe than not to believe, to them.

9. Jacobsen: Marilyn vos Savant writes for Parade Magazine, does a column called Ask Marilyn. Some questioner asked her about Pascal’s Wager. She made the point that basically said one then, within context, should automatically devote themselves to the religion that provides the greatest promise in the hereafter. That’s the silly implication.

Langseth: Right, it’s a waste of time. It’s a waste of time praying and going to these churches. It’s a waste of time.

Jacobsen: It can be a waste of life.

Langseth: Yes, waste of life, you’re right because time is life. You cannot get it back.

10. Jacobsen: Unless, of course, it’s an adult who has made the decision to partake in this and get meaning out of it. At the same time, most of it is implicated in kids from a young age.

Richard Dawkins pointed it out that you do not have Catholic children; you have children of Catholic parents. But the assumption is such that you will have the label of Catholic children or Sunni children or Shia children, and so on.

And it gives another familial privilege, in this case, to the religious, to foist their beliefs on children prior to the development of critical faculties. Everyone can pay lip service to the idea that “I will provide a broad-based education to my child about all the religions of the world.”

However, this doesn’t necessarily translate into an objective presentation of world religions as sets of ideas and beliefs or a survey of those beliefs rather than “we have the true, true religion in our family.”

Langseth: This is why in the Philippines is 80% Roman Catholic, because we’re all Catholics. A lot of those Filipinos no. They learn that having religion means you can get money from that.

Catholicism is the number 1 religion. The first person who fought with the Spaniards was Lapu Lapu. He killed Magellan. Why is it that still people believe in Christianity? Why are they still going into the cult?

It’s because they are good at threatening people. Indoctrination of fear.

Jacobsen: It goes to your point earlier about how in many ways: religions are political systems.

Langseth: Yes, exactly. If the family is Catholic, the children are automatically Catholic.

11. Jacobsen: Yes, there’s an argument to be made too. Because if you look at statistics of birth rates, if that is the norm, the global historical norm, a child of X religion parents will be labeled X religion, then the religions with the highest birth rates will have the most adherence in the next generation, statistically.

And so it’s quite deliberate as to the reason for the strong emphasis on bigger families, on control of women’s reproduction and the control of women. If you are a leader and you control the men who control the women, especially women’s reproduction, then you control legacy. 

Langseth: Of course, yes, absolutely, that’s happening in the Philippines. That’s why they don’t like this RH bill. No matter how much the people want it, the priests are against that because it will kill the legacy.

And with Islam, they have 4 wives so they can procreate. 50 children at a time, at one time, with 4 women. It’s marketing and promotion. They are good at that.

References

  1. Angeles, M. (2012, August 20). World Trade Center ‘cross’ causes religious dispute among Fil-Ams. Retrieved from http://news.abs-cbn.com/global-filipino/08/20/12/world-trade-center-cross-causes-religious-dispute-among-fil-ams.
  2. Atheist Republic. (2014, September 10). Marissa Torres Langseth: Freethinking groups can achieve a common goal. Retrieved from http://www.atheistrepublic.com/gallery/marissa-torres-langseth-freethinking-groups-can-achieve-common-goal.
  3. Comelab, M. (2012, May 26). Filipino Atheists Becoming More Active. Retrieved from http://mail.reasonism.org/main-content/item/2689-filipino-atheists-becoming-more-active.
  4. Duke, B. (2011, April 28). The Pope’s gonna have a cow. Catholic Philippines gains its first atheist society. Retrieved from http://freethinker.co.uk/2011/04/28/the-pope%E2%80%99s-gonna-have-a-cow-catholic-philippines-gains-its-first-atheist-society/.
  5. French, M. (2017, March 5). The New Atheists of the Philippines. Retrieved from https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/03/new-atheists-philippines/518175/.
  6. Langseth, M.T. (2011, June 1). Atheism in the Philippines: A Personal Story. Retrieved from https://thehumanist.com/news/hnn/atheism-in-the-philippines-a-personal-story.
  7. Langseth, M.T. (2017, April 14). FROM SUPERSTITION TO REASON: JOURNEYS TO HUMANISM/ATHEISM BY HAPI. Retrieved from http://thescientificatheist.com/author/marissa/.
  8. Langseth, M.T. (2013, March 20). Kwentong Kapuso: Registered nurses and the alphabet soup of nursing. Retrieved from http://www.gmanetwork.com/news/news/pinoyabroad/300110/kwentong-kapuso-registered-nurses-and-the-alphabet-soup-of-nursing/story/.
  9. Meyer, E. (2017, March 7). Atheist missionaries are spreading humanist ideals in the Philippines. Retrieved from https://wwrn.org/articles/46700/.
  10. Universal Life Church Monstery. (2017, March 27). Filipino Atheists Pulling from the Christian Missionary Playbook. Retrieved from https://www.themonastery.org/blog/2017/03/filipino-atheists-using-the-christian-missionary-playbook/.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Founder, PATAS; Founder, HAPI.

[2] Individual Publication Date: January 15, 2018 at www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-three; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2018 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Post-Master’s degree, Certificate for Adult Nurse Practitioner with prescriptive privileges – College of Mount Saint Vincent, NY, USA; M.S.N., Adult Health, CUNY, NYC, USA; B.S.N., University of San Carlos, Cebu, Philippines.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Marissa Torres Langseth.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. (Part Three) [Online].January 2018; 16(A). Available from:  www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-three.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, January 15). An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. (Part Three). Retrieved from  www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-three.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. (Part Three). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A, January. 2018. < www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-three>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A.  www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-three.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A (January 2018).  www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-three.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 16.A. Available from: < www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-three>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 16.A.,  www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-three.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 16.A (2018):January. 2018. Web. < www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-three>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. (Part Three) [Internet]. (2018, January; 16(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-three.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2018-01-08

An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. (Part Two)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 16.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Twelve)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: January 8, 2018

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 6,229

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. She discusses: becoming a nurse practitioner, disallowance of freedom of conscience, freedom of belief, freedom of movement for women; religious and secular superstitions in medical decisions; assumptions in medical determinations; the God of the gaps; presumption of a family dynamic in declarations at death; evidence for prayer in the medical literature and in practice; complication in terminology for an atheist and an irreligious individual, and secular superstitions; two streams of atheism; other superstitions brought into the formal medical world; conspiratorial mindsets about the FDA; one of the most egregious examples of complementary medicine inundating proper medicine and causing real damage to people’s lives; fasting and health complications; symptoms of renal failure; other concernswith fasting, as a medical professional; and the ubiquitous belief in prayer.

Keywords: HAPI, humanism, Marissa Torres Langseth, PATAS, Philippines.

An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N.: Founder, PATAS; Founder, HAPI (Part Two)[1],[2],[3],[4]

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, why did you become a nurse practitioner, to clarify?

Marissa Torres Langseth: To clarify, I became a nurse practitioner specializing in adult health because I wanted autonomy in my profession. I wanted to direct people in what to do. I’m confident I can do it and I did it. Of course, I retired two years ago as a nurse practitioner. I have never been sued.

No complaints with my diagnoses. So far, I did it all and the money was good. However, I need to rest.

2. Jacobsen: For women coming from cultures or subcultures, this can be North America too, of course, that disallow freedom of conscience, freedom of belief, freedom of movement as one would like, would you recommend becoming a nurse practitioner for that independence?

Langseth: Absolutely. In fact, I have recommended that all registered nurses become a nurse practitioner because it is different when you are already at that bracket. You function autonomously. You are like a doctor.

Not only that, but there is some form of respect that you don’t get from being a registered nurse. I was a registered nurse for a long time. It was different. Our training is different. Our pay scale is much higher and we are regarded by a lot of doctors, especially the general practitioners, as equals.

For example, when my patient goes to the emergency room, I call them and talk to them as an equal, not as a second-class citizen or a nurse. I’m a nurse practitioner and these doctors, some of them, are arrogant. I’ve met a lot of them.

I put them in their place. Modesty aside, I can say I was a successful nurse practitioner during my time. Really, I love my job. I have helped a lot of families make decisions for themselves because part of our job was to empower families and patients to make decisions for themselves. when you go to the hospital, the doctor will tell you.

No, it should be that they provide options and the patient should choose what they want, not the doctors. Some doctors are stupid. They’re arrogant, in fact, they don’t want to be corrected and they don’t want you to let them know that medicine.

Personally speaking, when I go to the doctor, I tell them, doctor, I’m a nurse practitioner, right away they treat you differently. They treat you like you’re an equal.

3. Jacobsen: In regards to the nursing profession in the medical world, does religious or even secular superstition ever play a part in medical decisions?

Langseth: It’s always a part of that because some of these religious people say, “I’ll pray for you. I hope you become better. We’ll pray for you.” They always have that phrase about praying. For me, that’s nonsense.

I always say, “How could prayers work? You’re in the hospital.” And again, I’m objective. I’m straightforward. If it were my patent, I don’t tell them, “I’ll pray for you.” I always say, “I hope the drugs, the medications, the medical interventions, surgical interventions will work for you.”

I’ve never said pray. However, I’ve heard a lot of doctors, especially the Muslim doctors, they always say, “Okay, we’ll pray for you. We’ll say good graces to you, to Allah.” I still see some of them.

In fact, recently, there’s a doctor who told a patient. I was right in from of him. He said, “I’m sorry but your mother was taken by God already.” I said, “Doctor can’t you say the patient did not make or died because of this?”

4. Jacobsen: Why assume?

Langseth: Yes, they use God to maybe finish the statement, so that they don’t have to explain further. God took your family.

5. Jacobsen: In philosophy, they have the idea of God of the gaps.

Langseth: Yes.

Jacobsen: When you can’t explain something in an argument with a premise or formalized argumentation structure, you say, “God did it,” in essence. 

Langseth: Exactly.

Jacobsen: I feel as though in that context it’s another form of it, but for grief. So, in place of grief, you say, “God took him or her.”

Langseth: I have no objection to that. In fact, it brings comfort to a lot of people, especially again we cannot explain so many things. Even with how much you like to in medicine and technology, we cannot explain. You’re right. God of the gaps. We cannot explain. That’s why they mention it.

And again, I don’t know. I cannot say God took your mother. I cannot say that.

6. Jacobsen: It seems presumptuous because you don’t know the full family dynamic, where everyone’s at in regards to their faith. In some context, I could see an appropriateness for it, not only as a filler for grief but also based on shared religious doctrine and belief. 

But often, even statistically, you should not expect that or use it as a phrase in that a context.

Langseth: It should not be. It’s a little bit unprofessional when they say that. Like, “We’ll pray for your mother.” We’ll pray for your mother? If you were to ask me, you should go to the hospital when you’re sick; otherwise, don’t go there.

It’s the worst place you can be. We have bacteria resistance. Bacteria that will not respond to medications. It’s the worst place you could be, really.

7. Jacobsen: To clarify even further on the prayer example, what is the evidence for prayer or against it in the medical literature and in practice?

Langseth: There was a study. It was in Columbia Presbyterian, about praying. It was specifically for patients who have had open heart surgery if I’m not mistaken. I read the article a long time ago. According to the article or to the study, it did not help.

In fact, it made the patient’s conditions worse. Especially when they told the patient that they’re praying for them, they became anxious and even got worse instead of getting better. Of course, I have this notion that prayers don’t work.

They don’t work. That study not only confirmed my understanding. And this is true that praying for somebody and you’re being prayed for, it makes them uncomfortable and worse in their condition. Although, there was no other study that I have read.

It was only one. But again, tested and proven, it won’t work. For example, patients in the Philippines. They’re poor. My classmates until now, would you believe that? Until now, my classmates in high school still go to quack doctors.

We call them abulerios. Doctors and them will recommend tea leaves or some drink from somewhere. Maybe, they will put charcoal in their wound. Of course, the wound becomes infected. So, I get upset and bothered by these classmates of mine.

That’s why I always get into fights with them. Because I cannot help it. As a medical practitioner, I say, “Why are you going to people who don’t know what medicine is? You will die or it will become worse.”

In fact, one of my colleagues. He’s one of my friends in the Philippines. He recently died. He posted on Facebook that he is sick. I said, “You are sick. Your blood sugar is high. Your blood level: you’re high risk. You need to go to the hospital right now.”

So, after a few days, I don’t know if he listened to me. He was bed bound for a while. He said he was in an out of a doctor. I said, “You don’t need to go to a doctor. You need to go to a hospital because it looks like you have the following.”

Of course, I mentioned my diagnosis according to his symptoms. True enough he had undergone some form of surgery and he died. Even if he believed, he was also an atheist. But even if he believed in science, if he has all these complications, medicine will not work.

8. Jacobsen: There’s a complication there in terms of terminology for an atheist or someone who is irreligious. So, someone could be labeled as having no religious affiliation. That doesn’t leave them unsusceptible to other forms of irrational belief about the world, especially medicine.

Langseth: Even if some people are atheists, some of them still are stubborn. They don’t want to see a doctor. They don’t want to go to a hospital right away. It doesn’t follow that if they’re atheists, they believe in hardcore science or medicine.

Especially in the Philippines, they could be atheist but still because they don’t have money and the means, they still go to these quack doctors for their fever. Unfortunately, in the Philippines, it’s because of poverty. A lot of atheists, members in HAPI, they’re poor.

They cannot afford medicine, so they still go to these quack doctors and boy do they get worse. They get worse, unfortunately.

9. Jacobsen: Also, there are at least 2 streams of atheism. One is “this is the only life I have so I will do the best I can for others and myself. I’m embedded in a social network, so I best take care of my health.”

For instance, “If I have children, I want to be there for them, and my grandchildren.” Another stream is “this is the only life I have and nothing matters and the world is valueless and,” therefore, they fall into some form of nihilism.

They don’t care. They may not have even expressed this explicit belief. So, they don’t go to the doctor. They don’t care about their health. They don’t care about decent behaviour either.  Those are two streams that follow from some atheism.

Langseth: Yes, I agree because I have met both types. I’m sad for the second type of atheism because they think life is only a delusion. They think life is unreal. This is why they don’t care about others. They say they’re atheist.

They pretend to be nice, but inside them and I’ve seen it also, but they don’t care. Because they think life has no purpose and their values, their ethical values are bad also. And some people like that and I’m sad for them.

10. Jacobsen: What about some of the other less known superstitious beliefs in medicine? Such as crystals, homeopathy, and so on, are these ever brought into the formal medical world as far from your experience?

Langseth: We call them alternative treatment or complementary treatment to make it sound better. Like, for example, aromatherapy, massage, and touch therapy, I saw a lot of ads saying alternative medicine or complementary medicine.

Meaning you go there, you have this therapy. Yet, you still believe in taking medications. There is nothing wrong with that. But if you believe in that, like touch therapy and massage, then there’s a problem. They can go together with a massage. You can relax. It’s also relaxation techniques and aromatherapy makes your body relax.

I practice, not aromatherapy, but I like the smell of these types of plants and the massage technique. I love those because it also makes your body feel better afterward, so you can function better. But of course, if you’re sick you go to a doctor, you go to the hospital.

Like Chinese medicine, acupuncture they say it works. Maybe to others, but I don’t know, I haven’t tried it. Homeopathy, maybe, it works to others, but I don’t know. Of course, it isn’t proven that it doesn’t work.

It’s even more expensive. But in a hospital or a nursing home where I work, we don’t apply them. But we do ask our patients if they have that. For example, the plants and the additional things that they do at home or especially using like r ginger plants or other herbs, we ask them.

We try to request them to stop while they are in the hospital. Although, we educate them because education helps a lot. We say that some of these plants are not good, or herbal capsules are not good because they do not undergo FDA experimentation.

They don’t go through the FDA, so some could be lethal in a few drops because I’ve heard a lot of horror stories especially from the Philippines. They try to use, comfrey. It’s a form of plant.

It’s used and some of them have a lot of liver failure because of that plant. Again, it’s difficult when we don’t have regulations like FDA regulations. So, we try to educate our patients not to use them.

11. Jacobsen: What are some responses that come from complementary medical practitioners, if I can call them that, who might have, for instance, a conspiratorial mindset about the FDA?

Langseth: Would you believe it? We have a few nurse practitioners who believe in that. Who are still promoting alternative medicine and, of course, homeopathy; in fact, it’s good you mentioned that. I have a close friend, he moved to Asheville, North Carolina.

He’s a nurse practitioner, but he’s also promoting homeopathy. So, I said, “My goodness, this guy is a wonderful guy, but he believes it works for his patients.” So, I could not even talk to him about it, to be honest with you. With due respect to him, he’s a nurse practitioner. He’s a graduate of Colombia University. He’s promoting homeopathy.

12. Jacobsen: What do you consider one of the most egregious examples of complementary medicine inundating proper medicine and causing real damage to people’s lives?

Langseth: It’s some form of manipulation in the neck instead of going to a real orthopaedic doctor. They go to these types of doctors. Chiropractor! Some of them they go to the chiropractor and I have heard of some people being paralyzed because of that.

Because some chiropractors, they’re not careful. Some are good. I went to one or two, but there were instances when they missed a part and these people become paralyzed and that is dangerous.

So far with the herbal treatments, there are some that work like Warfarin. So, if these people are taking it, warfarin, or aspirin, they can also bleed to death. That is dangerous when you mix that. But I have not heard of a lot of instances like that case anyway.

13. Jacobsen: What about things such as fasting – which for many of the faithful, of the formal religious – is an important part of their life, it is a part of an ascetic, religious life. You mentioned before that it didn’t make sense to you because you preferred to eat.

What are some health complications that can possibly show up with fasting?

Langseth: That’s ridiculous in a way because fasting, especially fasting for three days, you can have GERD. You can have ulcers. You can have be dehydrated within 72 hours and it can cause kidney failure.

So, fasting is nonsense, stupid and ridiculous. Although, in Saudi Arabia, their fasting is different. They eat when the sun goes down. When the sun comes up, they fast. So, it’s different. In the Roman Catholic faith, at the death of their Jesus Christ, they don’t eat.

Because they think it’s like some form of penitence. They’re like showing respect to their Jesus Christ, which is bad. Imagine not eating for 3 days? Again, during my time, I don’t observe that. I go to my room and eat and do what I want. T

There’s so many health issues after fasting. In the Philippines I cannot understand, this is the 21st century and these people still fast. That is plain stupid. And then they complain when they have ulcers, when they have to go into the hospital for renal failure and dehydration.

14. Jacobsen: What are some symptoms of renal failure?

Langseth: Fasting can cause renal failure, GERD, and ulcers. One symptom is anuria. “A” means without and “nuria” is to pee. If you cannot urinate for 24 hours, that means you could have some renal failure. Of course, that stems from being dehydrated.

If you don’t drink from 72 hours, your kidney cannot produce urine and there’s no urine so you have anuria. You can be dizzy, weak and will collapse. Dizzy spells, you could collapse. Some people could die from that. And of course, there are so many medications that can cause renal failure too.

15. Jacobsen: When you look at religious practices in general, what are some other ones that are of concern to you regarding health as a professional?

Langseth: Number 1, when they don’t follow or when they don’t go to the doctor or hospital when they are sick, they think God or prayers will save them. That is dangerous. Number 2, they go to a quack doctor. Of course, they cannot afford.

That’s also one reason why they don’t go to the doctor, because they cannot afford it. There is a lot of poverty in the Philippines, so they don’t go. Of course, they think that Jesus will help them or their God will help them.

Especially if they have incurable forms of diseases like cancer, they think their God will help them. That’s dangerous. Instead of getting different viewpoints from medical practitioners, they go to their relatives and friends and they would say, “Okay, let us all pray for you, so you’ll get better.”

That is dangerous. Would you believe that it’s still being practiced in the Philippines?

16. Jacobsen: I would because belief in prayer is everywhere. What about these televangelists who appear to be so popular in the United States? These people who go to televangelists are people who throw their diabetes medication up on the stage or their eyeglasses and they say, “Jesus cured my glaucoma and diabetes. Not only that, he took the tumor out of my gut.”

Langseth: These are clowns. They pretend so much; it’s so obvious to me. I could not believe why people would find them useful. I find them nauseating every time I hear that, “Throw away your medication.” Believe me, I’ve seen it.

I’ve seen real people say that. When I was in the Philippines, I saw people from the Church. They go to the pastor and this pastor will pray for them when they’re sick. They’ll think they’re cured. I could not believe why they have spread.

In the USA, we have a lot of educated people. Why do they believe in that? It stems from ignorance about medicine; God of the gaps; people being lazy. They don’t read. They don’t read about new technology and science – being ignorant about so many things.

Then when you talk to them, they think that you are like my God, what are you talking about. But when you show them your credentials, they would believe you. I met a few during my tour in Switzerland. I met a few ignorant teachers.

They’re from the Bible Belt and when they talk about that. I tell them, “No, that’s not true!” And they look at me like I’m crazy and when I tell them my credentials, “Ah!” So, again, I’m straightforward.

In the 21st century, we should not have these televangelists. Why are they allowed to preach when there is hardcore science to prove that science can cure ailments? Or we have palliative measures if it cannot be cured? I could not understand people throwing money at these types of human beings.

That’s why they’re getting rich, rich. Jehovah’s Witness is one of them. I’ve heard of a cult in Texas. There’s the one that came to my mind are Jehovah’s Witness. These are poor people trying to survive in their community.

I feel bad because they come knocking on our door. I would shoo them away. and I tell them, “I’m an atheist. I don’t believe in your bullshit.” One time they even said, “Good morning, ma’am!” I’m honest, I say, “Good morning.” They say, “We would like to bless you.”

I say, “Excuse me? You cannot bless me. You’re only a human being. I’m an atheist, get out of here” [Laughing].

To be honest with you, since I came out and was vocal about my atheism, a lot of people came out. Some of them said, “You inspired us to come out. Now because of you, we would not be able to come out.”

It’s because somebody has to stand up; somebody has to break that barrier and be called an atheist. There’s nothing wrong with being an atheist. There is nothing wrong. When I created PATAS, I had the bragging rights to make PATAS because I founded that.

But as soon as I came out, I posted the picture of Richard Dawkins. That picture with Richard Dawkins launched PATAS. People were shocked that there’s this Philippina on Facebook with Richard Dawkins.

There’s nothing wrong with coming out! And this is the reason why being vocal and showing how good you are as a human being and an atheist will promote not only PATAS in the Philippines, but it will show to the world that we are good people. That has a lot of comments.

Of course, I got some bashing also, but that’s fine. That’s expected [Laughing]. As expected, the jealous people bashed me, but that’s fine. What I’m saying is it’s because of Facebook that I was able to create something that has not been created in the Philippines.

If not because of Facebook and social media, we will still be in the dark. We won’t have these non-religious societies in the Philippines. I’m still stupid with computers, believe me. I’m not at all a computer guru.

But I taught myself to do Facebook and to help out on the website because I need to, as the founder. You’re right that religion is eroding. We are the silent majority. Why? When I went to the Philippines for 2 months, the people I spoke to said that they went to church.

It’s like for convenience. But as per my conversations with them, they don’t believe in a God that will help them. It’s no longer like that. Although the older population, the 80-years-olds, the 90-years-olds, they still go to church and ask for help.

But the younger generations, they have done better: Millennials. Millennials are the ones who will save us because they know now there is no supernatural being that will help us.

She will help us promote Humanism. Not atheism, but humanism; humanism is a positive word for atheism. This is why if you go to our website, I mention Humanism is the best gift of atheism. I got like 500 likes when that was posted in the Atheist Republic.

That means that a lot of people will agree with me. Humanism is better utilized than atheism. Atheism is an empty shell. It’s a lack of belief. We don’t believe, fine. Humanism is the action word. We do something. That’s Humanism, like educating people and promoting equal rights.

It’s not positive, but it’s like you’re doing something when you’re a humanist. Like how I explained to these youngsters that I met when they had a party in my house, these elementary school or high school students.

I said, “Humanism means human and ism. Human means in you, in me, in humanity.” That’s all I told them. I didn’t tell them there’s no God. I didn’t say that because some of them are still religious. But they are appreciative.

They believe because when they believe in humans, then they will try to help you. That’s all I said. That was positive. We will continue that type of education. In fact, I was chatting recently to that lady in Bacolod, who launched her project about HAPI SHADE (Secular, Humanist, Advocacy, Development, Education).

She is launching that, but hers is different. She’s getting the young. The young people, they’re not in high school. They are 5- to 7-years-old. I met all of them because I was there when she launched that event.

In fact, I cried because I was so happy with what I saw. This is what you call “catch them while they’re young.” When you catch them young, you teach them these things. Yes, so catch them young, there are 70 of them.

She also got 70 volunteers, so it’s like 1-to-1. Then we feed them. Her style is different. We were chatting, so I have this in my brain. Monday to Thursday, they do remedial classes. Remedial meaning “on top of”: these children are poor.

They don’t know how to read. They don’t know how to do much. They are 5- or 7-years-old. So, they do remedial classes and on Friday feed them. So, it’s one form of saying, “Hey, let’s go to that class Monday to Thursday and then they give us goodies on Fridays.”

She said she’s going to do that for years, and do some assessments and evaluate whether it’s working after a couple or a few years. So, I told her we need to find a lot of donors. I donated a hundred dollars. That’s nothing to me.

We need to sustain that. In order to sustain that, we need an article to immortalize that on our website, so we get more donors who can understand what we’re doing. A lot of the donors would like to see children talk science, technology, and philosophy rather than wasting their time praying, going to church.

I have met a lot of humanist types. Real humanism is a denial of any deity or any supernatural being; that’s real Humanism to me. I’m a humanist. I don’t believe in those bullshit deities or supernatural entities.

Some humanists, I’ve met a few of them. One, I was chatting with her. She said she still believes in something. I said that’s fine. She’s a freethinker. She’s a humanist because she does this for human beings, to advance humanity. In fact, I have met a person in AHA when I attended that convention in 2011, when I asked if she believed in God.

Humanism does not mean you don’t believe in God. That’s what he said. So, I learned from him and not only that but from experience that when you’re a humanist, then you’re not an atheist. Some of them still believe in something.

Not necessarily Jesus or Allah, but they still believe in something. It’s because they’re not 100% convinced out of fear. Some of them out of respect for their tradition. Like the Filipinos, some of them they think they’re Catholic humanists.

Okay, that’s fine. The reason being that we have a huge umbrella of humanists in HAPI. Some of them are pure atheists and hardcore militant atheists like me and some of them are quite religious. However, some religious people have become agnostic or freethinkers because of what they’ve read in our forum.

One example is Jamie. Jamie was religious before and now she doesn’t go. She always thinks, at this time, that she’s agnostic. For us, that is a success already. We are successful and some of these people coming to us. They were religious at first.

Now, since they’ve joined us, they realize there’s no use for praying. There’s no use of going to Church, being a good person. And that is already a success for me. I can brag that I have converted a lot of people. Jamie is one of them.

A few people in Bacolod who were religious are freethinkers. So, in HAPI, we welcome all of them. We welcome anyone, as long as they don’t have a bomb in their belt, that’s fine. Some humanists, I don’t know if they can still be called humanists.

Duterte is killing these drug addicts and drug lords. You are aware of that. Some these humanists in HAPI are giving them the go signal. I don’t know. That’s selective Humanism.

Jacobsen: Can you clarify?

Langseth: There are humanists in HAPI who believe that Duterte is doing a good thing and killing those drug addicts is fine. They would give a thumbs up to them. I don’t know if you can still call them humanists.

But in euthanasia also, we have a right to die. For example, one of my specialties is palliative nursing, palliative care nursing. For example, if a patient is having pain every day and is bedbound, cannot move anymore and wasting, they have the right to go comfortably or to choose when and where to die.

For example, I have advised a lot of my patients’ families that “why would we go through a lot of medical interventions when it’s futile?” Why would you go through that? And that’s also good humanism because on the positive note, it will stop the misery of the human being.

I hate to say this, but it will save Medicare dollars. But this is not economics, my job. When I was still working, it was to empower my patients, to empower the families. If their loved one is in constant pain, of course, we treat them with maximum treatments with opioids or other things like that, but some of them would rather die than go forward, than be like that forever.

And of course, the families, most of them, believe me, would agree. That is humane. Remember if you see a horse in the street and they are in pain, you want to kill them right? You want to shoot them, so they will be put out of their misery. Why can’t we do that with human beings?

In a palliative and comfortable and respectful way, of course, if I was sick and in pain every day, I don’t want to live like that: please, kill me. When I had a car accident, I was on leave, on medical leave for 2 months.

I told my husband, “Honey, kill me. I’m in pain every day, bury me in the backyard.” I told him that. How much more with those people in the nursing home who are always in pain and bedridden and suffering? There’s pain and suffering every day for years and years. How much more?

I could not imagine how they feel. People would rather die than be in pain. I read a survey. People would rather die than be in pain. This is why we have high incidents of drug addiction in America. Nobody wants to be in pain!

Yes, nobody wants to be in pain. Look at these doctors, I’ve overheard a lot of doctors mention, “What? We’re like drug pushers over here. We treat patients with opioids right away and they come back and they’re drug addicts.”

Of course! Duh. When my husband had a fracture, I was keen on his medication because I don’t want him to be addicted. The doctors would say, “How come you don’t like this medication?” He said, “My wife is a nurse practitioner. I would rather listen to her than you.”

Because they don’t care, they prescribe Tylenol number 3, Vicodin, Percocet, or opioids generally.  The whole time the patient is in the hospital. When they come out, they want to refill their opioids and then after a month or two they’re drug addicts. I’m not surprised. I wrote an article about that.

Because nobody wants to be in pain. I’m in pain right now, I have some tendonitis from my vacation because I was carrying my bags, heavy bags. I have tendonitis in my right shoulder. It’s little pain, but I cannot take it. How much more with people who are in severe pain?

I have seen my patients who do otherwise. Like they’d rather be in pain because that’s what Jesus Christ wants them to have and be pain free when they die. So, when they’re alive, I had a patient. My God, I could not forget her. She’s a Jehovah’s witness.

She was in severe pain. She had gangrene in both feet. That means, she’s dying. I told her I was going to give her a patch to alleviate her pain. She said, “No, I want to be in pain because I want to experience what Jesus did during his life.”

I said, “My lord, I cannot take this. What I did? I called her family. Her niece was open-minded.” I said, “We need to treat your grandmother. She is in pain.” So, she came and she saw the pain and suffering. I said, “Yes, okay, do whatever is good for her. She cannot decide anyway.”

She’s not only demented. She was in pain. Her religious belief is getting into me and into my practice. I ordered this. After a few days, she died comfortably, having a religious belief will make you suffer.

It will make people suffer. They believe that is part of life; that is part of the penance or their route to go to heaven, to be in pain. That’s bullshit. I’m talking about religious attendance. My husband and I, we still go to Church.

The last time we were there. There were like 12 people. My husband told me when I was in the Philippines that he went to Church. There were only 9 of them and even the pastor was not there [Laughing]. It’s sad. I said, “My goodness, what’s wrong with this?” It’s so sad.

Yes, we have a few of them. But you’re right, it’s changing. The landscape of religiosity is changing and that is a good thing for us.

References

  1. Angeles, M. (2012, August 20). World Trade Center ‘cross’ causes religious dispute among Fil-Ams. Retrieved from http://news.abs-cbn.com/global-filipino/08/20/12/world-trade-center-cross-causes-religious-dispute-among-fil-ams.
  2. Atheist Republic. (2014, September 10). Marissa Torres Langseth: Freethinking groups can achieve a common goal. Retrieved from http://www.atheistrepublic.com/gallery/marissa-torres-langseth-freethinking-groups-can-achieve-common-goal.
  3. Comelab, M. (2012, May 26). Filipino Atheists Becoming More Active. Retrieved from http://mail.reasonism.org/main-content/item/2689-filipino-atheists-becoming-more-active.
  4. Duke, B. (2011, April 28). The Pope’s gonna have a cow. Catholic Philippines gains its first atheist society. Retrieved from http://freethinker.co.uk/2011/04/28/the-pope%E2%80%99s-gonna-have-a-cow-catholic-philippines-gains-its-first-atheist-society/.
  5. French, M. (2017, March 5). The New Atheists of the Philippines. Retrieved from https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/03/new-atheists-philippines/518175/.
  6. Langseth, M.T. (2011, June 1). Atheism in the Philippines: A Personal Story. Retrieved from https://thehumanist.com/news/hnn/atheism-in-the-philippines-a-personal-story.
  7. Langseth, M.T. (2017, April 14). FROM SUPERSTITION TO REASON: JOURNEYS TO HUMANISM/ATHEISM BY HAPI. Retrieved from http://thescientificatheist.com/author/marissa/.
  8. Langseth, M.T. (2013, March 20). Kwentong Kapuso: Registered nurses and the alphabet soup of nursing. Retrieved from http://www.gmanetwork.com/news/news/pinoyabroad/300110/kwentong-kapuso-registered-nurses-and-the-alphabet-soup-of-nursing/story/.
  9. Meyer, E. (2017, March 7). Atheist missionaries are spreading humanist ideals in the Philippines. Retrieved from https://wwrn.org/articles/46700/.
  10. Universal Life Church Monstery. (2017, March 27). Filipino Atheists Pulling from the Christian Missionary Playbook. Retrieved from https://www.themonastery.org/blog/2017/03/filipino-atheists-using-the-christian-missionary-playbook/.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Founder, PATAS; Founder, HAPI.

[2] Individual Publication Date: January 8, 2018 at www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-two; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2018 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Post-Master’s degree, Certificate for Adult Nurse Practitioner with prescriptive privileges – College of Mount Saint Vincent, NY, USA; M.S.N., Adult Health, CUNY, NYC, USA; B.S.N., University of San Carlos, Cebu, Philippines.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Marissa Torres Langseth.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. (Part Two) [Online].January 2018; 16(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-two.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, January 8). An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. (Part Two). Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-two.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A, January. 2018. <www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-two>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-two.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A (January 2018). www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-two.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 16.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-two>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2018, ‘An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 16.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-two.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 16.A (2018):January. 2018. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-two>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. (Part Two) [Internet]. (2018, January; 16(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-two.

License and Copyright

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Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2018-01-01

An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. (Part One)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 16.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Twelve)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: January 1, 2018

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 8,395

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N. She discusses: PATAS; inspiration for its founding and titles’; HAPI; effective strategies for advancement of the humanist movement; books; wedding ceremony as a non-believer; irreligious ceremony; difficulties and problems of community; younger generations’ difficulties; experience for men and women non-believers, the differences; notable education and social initiatives by HAPI; cynical use of political language to demonize non-believers; HAPI demographics; heroes and heroines; last talking to Paul Kurtz; Harris and Dawkins; women’s rights and religion, and women and religion; acknowledgement of an issue; secondary citizenship; fears for younger generations of women and girls; Noam Chomsky’s analysis of the media; denigration sourced in religion for women and girls; Margaret Atwood and the Robber Bride quote; those happy for Marissa’s potential failure; contributing to HAPI; common narrative of lives threatened; and tragic story for someone who came out as a non-believer.

Keywords: HAPI, humanism, Marissa Torres Langseth, PATAS, Philippines.

An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth, B.S.N., M.S.N.: Founder, PATAS; Founder, HAPI (Part One)[1],[2],[3],[4]

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So let’s start from the top. What was your family background regarding geography, culture, language, and religion?

Langseth: I was born in San Antonio, Nueva Ecija. It’s part of Luzon.

We are of course Catholics. We were poor. So, I was born poor and then at the age of 5 my father, who was a soldier then, was moved to Cebu.

Cebu is in the middle part of the Philippines; it’s an island. And of course my mother is so religious, she goes to church almost e day. And this is why I see that religion is a poison. It’s dangerous to society because people will go to church instead of working.

They would ask for food and money from the church. I mean from God not from the church.

We speak Tagalog in the Philippines. I speak different languages because I’ve been to so many places. Culturally speaking, religion is a big, huge part because it’s like e Sunday, my mother would kick me to go to church.

She would buy new clothes for me so I could go to church. It’s like she would force us to go to church even if there are no new clothes. She would force us. If you won’t go, you have to be kicked several times and be woke up to go to church.

I didn’t understand then but when I was in grade 5, when I discovered science, I began to ask the questions, “Why are we here? What is our purpose?” Nobody could answer me.

2. Jacobsen: What were some pivotal moments in early life or past grade 5 that you can remember?

Langseth: Pivotal moments, I would say in grade 5, it’s science. When I was looking at the stars, I would imagine who made this. I was asking questions already in grade 5. And then in high school, I could not understand why I could not get gifts from Santa Claus when I was a good girl.

So, I did my experimentation, no my research. Why is it that Santa Claus doesn’t give gifts to poor people? Now, I understand it’s because their parents are poor. So, I applied that to God. Why is it that God does not bless the poor people? So, maybe, there is no God

3. Jacobsen: What were some mystical or supernatural or transcendentalist beliefs that you had while growing up a “good girl”?

Langseth: I didn’t have any superstitious beliefs. I was one of those who was always going against the grain. For example, the number 13 is not bad for me. It’s not bad. People believe that you should not eat because during Ramadan Muslims celebrate and they don’t eat, right?

In the Philippines, we have a holy week. You’re not supposed to eat for 3 days, or eat a little bit. I didn’t follow that. I didn’t get sick or have any issues. Because it was stupid not to eat.

4. Jacobsen: What were some other early moments of moving towards an irreligious orientation or non-belief in God?

Langseth: There was one time when a priest in the military, we lived in a military compound. There was one time when that priest was trying to rape me. Of course, I’m good in running, so I ran away.

Why is it that these supposedly good people would try to touch other women, other girls? The part that made me turn to irreligion was when I was in Saudi Arabia, when I worked in Saudi Arabia, I worked there as a registered nurse.

I saw the different culture in Saudi Arabia. They’re Muslims there, and how they treat women. They’re treated like animals, like secondary citizens. Men were eating in a restaurant and the women were outside waiting for them.

And in fact, it’s just so different. So I said if there were a God, why is it that the people in Saudi Arabia are worshipping another God named Allah? And then the highlight of my irreligiosity is 9/11 in 2001.

I saw the 2nd plane surgically slash into the 2nd building. So I thought if there were a God, why can’t he stop that?

5. Jacobsen: What was the emotion running through you when you saw the plane hit the tower?

Langseth: It was terrorism, of course.  That if there were a God, why can’t he stop these kinds of atrocities? Why can’t he? So I said to myself, “People who would still believe in God at that time. It’s just so unreal to believe at that time really.”

Because it was preventable. That was not an act of nature. It’s not like a typhoon or earthquake. It’s preventable. It is a human invention, a person. I looked at that plane blow up the twin towers. If there were a powerful human being or a God, he could have stopped that, right?

6. Jacobsen: Why move to New York of all places, the United States in general?

Langseth: I was hired as a registered nurse in Cebu and they were hiring for New York City. That’s why I’m here. In fact, it’s the best place in the world. I’ve been to so many places and it’s the best place. I retired here two years ago from my job.

7. Jacobsen: Why did you pursue the post-masters in nursing?

Langseth: I want freedom. I don’t want to be dependent on anyone. When you are a nurse practitioner, when you have that post-master degree leading to being a nurse practitioner, you are free to practice.

You do not need a doctor to be on top of you or screaming at you and telling you what to do; you do it. There is what you call an equivalence. We’re like doctors in a way. We’re independent.

There’s freedom to practice wherever you want, whatever specialty you want. And of course the pay is high compared to just a registered nurse.

8. Jacobsen: Also, it’s not a profession that will necessarily go out of demand too.

Langseth: [Laughing] We are so much in demand, believe me. I still get a lot of calls and invites to apply to them. It’s always in demand, especially since there is a shortage of doctors in the USA.

9. Jacobsen: You founded the Philippine Atheism, Agnosticism and Secularism Inc. (PATAS)? 

Langseth: Yes, I started it in February, 2011, but it used to be the Philippine Atheist and Agnostic Society. They just changed that recently, the name.

10. Jacobsen: What was the inspiration for founding it? Why those three labels: Atheism, Agnosticism and Secularism?

Langseth: My inspiration was PATAS. PATAS means equality in Tagalog. That is why the first society I founded was named PATAS. I want people to see us as equals, not secondary citizens because we are atheists. Equality, not only because I stand for equality for all human beings, like LGBTs and people who are poor, they don’t have human rights because they are poor.

That’s the reason why I named it PATAS. Of course, it’s no longer in existence, but it’s still PATAS to them as they changed the S to secularism instead of society.

11. Jacobsen: Also, you founded the Humanist Alliance Philippines International, or HAPI. 

Langseth: Yes, because when I left or when I decided to leave PATAS in November of 2013, I found myself waking up at night and I couldn’t sleep. I said if I leave and don’t do anything, this group will eventually die.

So, I need to do something because I love to be happy and I want to be happy. I’m always happy. I said, “I will name it HAPI because I want it to spread and I want to share my happiness.” I’m a member of American Humanist Association, for a long time. I said, “How come nobody even have made a society called HAPI? It starts with H. It stands for Humanism.”

Then I crowdsourced: what the name should be? But I already had something in my mind like humanist, like it was supposedly the Humanist Association of the Philippines. The P for Philippines, obviously, and the I for international.

They said alliance is better. This is why it became the Humanist Alliance Philippines International. But if you call it HAPI, it’s a positive acronym. And there’s a music, it’s also happy. I purposively launched it in January, 2014, so that people will say HAPI New Years with HAPI. It’s called strategy [Laughing].

12. Jacobsen: What have been some of the more effective strategies for advancing the humanist movement?

Langseth: Number 1, I was always looking out for someone who can manage children. Or who has children, so we can feed them. That is a come on, so that people will see that we are good: we are good without God. We feed children, because the children, are our future.

So, I found Jamie. She has 200 kids. This was effective. We started feeding them in December of 2014 because it took a long time to find them. We have to interview. In fact, I asked around and she came to us.

It’s so funny. She came to us because she saw HAPI members during one of our stints. One of our LGBT stints. She spoke to them and these people at the stint. We were so nice and they gave her food. And that was the reason why she said, “When I go back to Manilla, I am going to look for HAPI.”

At the time it was coincidence and blessing you might say. We were looking for somebody like her. Then we found the children, we started in September 2014 and then it was bi-monthly, every 2 months.

That was for me just a come on because I am visionary. My vision is to attract these kids, to feed them, to make them feel we are not evil people and then finally the highlight of this is when we introduce literacy projects.

Like, for them, how to read, how to do some science work, and introduce some technology, I donated a computer to them so that they can look up our website instead of going to church. And we are successful because Jamie, the person in charge of these children, is now agnostic.

Sometimes, she says she’s atheist, but she’s agnostic, because at this time she still goes back and forth. So, that is the highlight. We are for education. Because when I was a kid, that’s what the pastors do. They call us.

I was in high school. After school, they would invite us to go to one house and feed us, give us food and then they talk about religion, of course, there. Their God, and this and that. So, this is the way, maybe, but ours is better because we don’t impose.

It’s up to them to listen to us or not, but it’s genuine feeding of kids because these kids don’t get enough nutrition because they’re poor. It’s the slum area. We went there last June.

The convention was also my ambition because that would be the culmination of my leadership in the Philippines because I was ready to retire. The second highlight is the book, the HAPI Book: From Superstition to Reason is now in Amazon, EBAY and Barnes and Noble. But we get very little royalties. It is also available in kindle.

13. Jacobsen: Is there a plan to expand not only the number and type of books on associated topics but also to increase outreach through publication of ebook platforms such as Kindle?

Langseth: That is the plan. However, again, I have retired, so that task has been passed on to the next leaders. The ebook and, maybe, Amazon, I don’t know what their plan is, but I heard something like that. But who knows?

It took me 5 years to produce this book to be honest with you. It started in 2011 when I started with PATAS. I asked people to submit stories so they can have something. My inspiration for that was a book. I forgot the title. It’s like ‘50 Stories of Atheism in the USA.’

I want to copy that, so we started collecting. But it’s difficult for Filipinos to submit things, to submit articles. It will take them a month or two. The sense of urgency is not there. I am Westernized already.

I used to be like that, so I understand. That’s our culture. I did an article now; they will give it to you after one month. If I need an article, I will give it to you tomorrow. Because that sense of urgency is already in me. I’m Westernized. I’ve been in the USA since 1990.

Jacobsen: Also, you’re a nurse and live in New York.

Langseth: Yes.

Jacobsen: These are important factors about living in the United States.

Langseth: I used to work 3 jobs, 3.

Jacobsen: I believe it.

Langseth: While taking my masters, I got married on top of that. How lucky could I be? It varies a lot.

14. Jacobsen: What are some differences in the wedding ceremony that you as a woman take into account as a non-believer – with planning and getting ready?

Langseth: When I got married, I was still a closet atheist. So, I went through the motions. If you see in my primary, in my first FB page, I have some wedding pictures there. That’s why I added you. That’s my husband. I went through all the motions because I was closeted then.

15. Jacobsen: And if you were to do it over again in terms of having an irreligious ceremony, how would you do it?

Langseth: I would do it on the beach. In fact, we had our renewal of vows in a cruise ship in 2006. I would do something like that. It was the captain of the ship who renewed our vows. I would do something like that

16. Jacobsen: What are some of the difficulties as atheists and agnostics and secularists and humanists as a community? What are some of the problems of community that we have generally?

Langseth: Generally, they think that us atheists are not good people; we are demons, evil people. We eat children. But to be honest with you, I have not felt that way here in New York City. Maybe, because I am in a different city and my neighbours are all diverse.

My neighbour on the right. She is a non-devout Muslim. She accepted me. I told her, “I don’t believe in God.” She accepted me as a human being. The one in the front, they’re Chinese. Of course, they don’t believe in God, the Chinese.

So in my neighbourhood, I live in an upscale neighbourhood in Queens. You cannot see homeless people running around. We’re not near a train station. Everyone has a job. Maybe, it’s because it’s my neighbourhood is why I did not feel any stigma, but in the Philippines it would be different.

In fact, Jamie told me she has to hide her being irreligious now. Of course, she goes to Church only upon pressure from her husband. But with me, I still go to church. It’s not pressured from my husband.

I go with him because I love my husband and that is one form of showing him how much I love him and how much I respect him. And the pastor is friendly with me.

Jacobsen: That always helps.

Langseth: Yes [Laughing], they’re nice people in the church. This is a Dutch Reform Church in Queens. It’s an older population. They’re nice. In fact, I even told them, “I don’t believe.” They said, “That’s okay. You’re here with us” [Laughing].

17. Jacobsen: What about from the outside, while in the Philippines? For the younger generations, based on self-importance that you’ve been told just in conversations with them – as you’re one of the organizations that have them, what have been their difficulties? What have been their trials and tribulations?

Langseth: I have read in one of the forums that some of them when they put N/A or not applicable, none, or no religion in their application in their job application: they will not get hired. That’s unfair. This is why I made PATAS because I want equality in everything.

If these people put atheist or no religion, they still should be hired based on their credentials, not because of their religion. And it’s so frustrating when I see some job applications they would say religion, “Catholic only.” That’s just so discriminatory.

18. Jacobsen: In some universities, they have covenants or faith pledges.

Langseth: That’s funny. Also, in the Philippines, they look for a certificate of confirmation, or baptism, and for the parents’ certificate of marriage and certificate of how do you call that? Baptism. Would you believe that?

19. Jacobsen: It’s the easiest course to pass. Statistically, the experience of women non-believers will probably be a little different for men non-believers. Is this true and what are some of the differences that you can note?

Langseth: Again, with me, I can’t experience much because I’m in New York City, but, because when you’re a woman in the Philippines; they think if you are irreligious, then you are a woman of ill-repute. That’s how Filipinos think. They equate being religious to having moral values.

I have a nephew in Missouri. I didn’t know that he was like me. But when I spoke to him, I asked him questions. He said, “If there were a God, he is useless. Because I prayed a long time for so many things. They did not come” [Laughing].

He’s a kid. So, what do you expect?  kids like him are open to the fact that instead of praying and asking via going to church. Why not work? So, you get what you want. There’s a lot of irreligious people. My husband is also agnostic because he does not believe in life after death.

20. Jacobsen: So if Christian, a very here-and-now Christian, what are some of the more notable educational and social initiatives that HAPI has done?

Langseth: I have launched something as my retirement project: SHADE. Secular, Humanist, Advocacy, Development, Education, or SHADE, of course, it’s HAPI SHADE. With that, we have two cities that are active.

One is in Cebu. I met them. It’s called HAPI COMPRE in Cebu (Comprehensive Science High school). Would you believe that? I went to their school and presented something to their principal. One of the administrative personnel in their school as well. They accepted me so warmly.

I was like them. This is in the Philippines. This is in Cebu. HAPI COMPRE has 20 students who would help clean up the street. Their recent project was cleaning the street. Afterwards, 20 kids, they clean up the streets and then to show good will to the neighbourhood they would be fed with simple food, nothing fancy.

And then, of course, this is science school, so you expect these children to be intelligent. These people have chosen also during the general assembly. I was not in the general assembly in Cebu. That was in 2016, so that was last years. They said their questions were out of this world and these kids.

They are our future. They are future scientists. So, I was happy to make a special event for them while I was in Cebu. We had lunch. We had unlimited ice cream and chocolate from the USA. Guess what, I took them to my mini library in the 2nd floor.

They read most of the books there, maybe 95 percent. They’re all irreligious books. That was my style. I said, “Who wants to read?” So, they went with me. They went up and the most read book was From Superstition to Reason, from HAPI There were 3 books about me.

One is, of course, our own HAPI book. Number 2 is Godless Grace. I was presented there as one of the contributing authors to Humanist Paths by AHA. I’m a member of AHA. They also got my story, so a lot of these kids. They have read about me.

Now, they realize I am godless. I tell them face-to-face. Their teacher is also a militant atheist and an open atheist. I ask him, “My God, these kids. They’re going to read about you!” He said, “That’s okay. They know all about me.”

So, that was the highlight in Cebu. Then when I was in Bacolod, I cried because they launched a HAPI SHADE event with the school. It’s called Jamie Elementary School. So, there are 2. We are not just in the street; we are in academia.

The first one was in the Lyceum Debate Society of the Philippines. So, we are going to academia, but I would prefer elementary and high schools because these children – I don’t like to say, but they are – malleable.

I hate to use the word brainwash because we were all brainwashed when we were children. But what I’m saying is, we can always direct them or make them realize that there’s an option to religion: it is Humanism.

So, these kids are the HAPI COMPRE. These kids are so bright. When I ask them what Humanism is all about, they know what it is from the word human. Of course, trust in human beings but they are still children, they still say believe in God.

Finally, when I straight face told them, “Humanism, we don’t believe in supernatural beings.” They were not shocked. They were not shocked at all. So, I have an inclination to believe that we are Godless, or mostly Godless, but some are maybe apathetic to religion.

21. Jacobsen: To reflect on the recent, one to two years in the United States, there has been cynical use of political language to demonize non-believers. Do you notice this too?

Langseth: Honestly, I have not felt that. I have not felt being demonized. Although, there was one time only I would say when I was still working. I worked with one of the biggest insurance companies in the world. It’s United Healthcare.

During the meetings, I told them that I was an atheist. I don’t believe in God. They were not as friendly and as welcoming to me. But I didn’t mind it because I’m confident about what I do and I don’t depend on them.

For me, it did not affect me whether they are friendly or not. They didn’t like me because when I told them I don’t believe in God. But who cares? That’s my attitude. In fact, with my patients when I talk to them, they say, “What? I pray for this one.”

I said, “We don’t have to pray. We have to go to surgery. Sorry, I’m straightforward.” I didn’t get any backlash. I never got sued for my atheism. There were no parents, no relatives. No patients have sued me for letting them know this is the best plan, the best option.

Because that’s how I always talked in my practice. I’m objective and don’t take things personally. If they don’t listen to me, that’s fine, but they always take my advice. For example, if a patient needs to go to the hospital or needs surgery, they always follow. They always agree to my medical advice.

22. Jacobsen: What are the demographics of HAPI?

Langseth: It’s mostly concentrated in Manila, Metro Manila. Because some islands, some of them are poor. They would need extra effort. They would need to put food on their table rather than do activism in Humanism.

Lately, we only have one or two active people there. In Cebu, we have many active people. In fact, some of them are not active because they always say, “I’m busy. I’m working.” Metro Manila has a lot.

Also, the distance of the commute is better. So, we have more in Metro Manila. This is why we have HAPI Con in Manila. That is one of the many reasons too. Although, it’s more expensive, but the attendance is more when we do it in Metro Manila than in Cebu or other places.

23. Jacobsen: Were some personal heroes or heroines presenting there for you? People who are giving a message about Humanism or speaking on a topic within a humanistic framework that you admire, or the person has gone through something and have come out stronger and you also admire them for that.

Langseth: My hero is Richard Dawkins. In 2011, I went to a convention because of him in Cambridge, in Massachusetts. In my first FB page, you can see my page. A convention with Richard Dawkins. I have so many pictures.

And that was the reason why PATAS was effective because they saw I was serious in promoting PATAS in the Philippines. I went out of my way to go to this convention. Everything is from my pocket anyway. The seed money from PATAS and HAPI is from my pockets.

Anytime I go and attend conventions, it is from my pockets. I have never utilized any donations from them. In fact, I am the biggest donor when I started PATAS. They cannot move without my donation.

When I started HAPI, they cannot move without my donation. Finally, we got a little bit of wind and windfall, so we were able to have better events. Richard Dawkins inspired me. I would have met Christopher Hitchens, but he died before I met him.

I was going to meet him in Melbourne, Australia. I went there to see him. I was going to see him at the global atheist convention but he died before that convention. I have met Dan Barker. He’s also one of my inspirations. Of course, Paul Kurtz at Columbia University.

Jacobsen: Yes.

Langseth: We were chatting before he died, would you believe that? He said Marissa I’m going to see you and we’re arranging to see each other. He was going to New York City in Colombia for that convention and I said good, I’m going to see you. And the next day he died.

24. Jacobsen: So you were one of the last people to talk to him?

Langseth: Yes, we were chatting a lot. He’s one of my idols. I’ve read a lot of his books about Humanism. I kept a few over here. Of course, I gave some away; I have a lot of these books. About neo-Humanism, this is the reason why I am promoting a lot about educating the kids, the young, because of him.

The true humanist, according to him, has compassion for educating the children. That’s what I got it from him, Paul Kurtz. But Richard Dawkins made me militant. I read The God Delusion.

25. Jacobsen: Was this around the time that you saw, or not long after seeing the towers hit, the books came out a little bit after? Some argue the movement started at that time with Harris and the Dawkins.

Langseth: I don’t remember which came first. I saw 9/11. I was angry. I bought that book, God is Not Great by Hitchens. That book changed me. I met Richard Dawkins in Cambridge on March the 11th.

26. Jacobsen: Do you feel religion is friendly or unfriendly in general towards women and women’s rights?

Langseth: If we take the positive parts, like what my husband said, if we take the positive parts of religion or Bible or whatever it is, it’s a good thing. However, there are too many things that are not right. It creates a lot of confusion, religion.

It has created a lot of confusion with me. When I was small, I would say if we go to Church for money, to ask God for money, what is it? It’s like magic, we think it’s like magic. Religion is poison in so many ways.

There are a lot of families who think that they can do evil things to their children because of religion. One example is my mother. My mother could not accept that my sister is a lesbian. So, she arranged for someone to kill my sister.

And that made me so angry with not only her, but with religion. Because she was too brainwashed. She was told by her priests and friends that it is a sin to be a lesbian. This is the reason why I’m empathetic to LGBT rights.

And I’m straight as can be. Because I don’t want people to think that they’re not human beings. A lot of the religious people in the Philippines dehumanize the LGBTs. You must have heard of a trans being killed and gay people being bashed.

Jacobsen: Of course.

Langseth: Even in New York, I’ve read of that too.

27. Jacobsen: The follow up of that is the denialism of it. It happens. To have a conversation about something, there has to be an acknowledgement of the issue. There are many social mechanisms, sometimes political, to stop the conversation even starting, by stopping any acknowledgment of it: of the killing of trans, of the demonizing of gays, and so on.

Langseth: Because they have not seen it, maybe, and have not felt it. I have felt it. That’s my sister. Even now, there’s still a lot of struggle with reproductive rights, especially in the Philippines. Unfortunately, it’s because they see women as secondary citizens and not equal to them.

28. Jacobsen:  What do you mean by secondary?

Langseth: Secondary citizens meaning there’s no equality. The women are not equal to men. In fact, men have higher salaries in the USA than women. And how, you are just a woman. You stay there, you produce children. You shouldn’t have rights like me. And that is still ongoing, especially in the Philippines. Look at our president.

Jacobsen: Both, the United States and Duterte.

Langseth: Yes, they’re like brothers.

Jacobsen: Two peas in a pod.

Langseth: Yes, two peas in a pod. But Duterte, it’s because of their upbringing. Those men should be higher, it’s like patriarchal society. Men are better than women. They were brainwashed like that. But it’s still a struggle, unfortunately. It is still a struggle.

In fact, the reproductive health bill, it took them 10-15 years to pass that law. Until now, it’s not being implemented. It’s like pulling teeth.

29. Jacobsen: What are your fears for the younger generations of women and girls?

Langseth: My fear would be this culture of rape and women are like playthings and women are treated like sexual objects. I hate that with a passion. When I see ads displaying women, for example, coke ads or cigarette ads. They show women instead, what advertisement is that?

30. Jacobsen: I agree with Noam Chomsky’s analysis of the media. The theory in economics is to have a rational consumer making rational choices with their purchases through the money that they’re using. However, there are funded marketing campaigns and organizations devoted to making irrational consumers making irrational choices.

So, you have these two things coming together, especially with representation and presentation of women’s bodies – taking advantage of what seems like a natural phenomenon of attention to women’s bodies more often than men’s.

As with the ads, the ones that come to mind, or the prominent ones, are car ads. What does this beautiful woman have to do with this car? How does this increase its horsepower or gas efficiency, for instance?

Langseth: [Laughing] There you go. As I’m a feminist, as you can see that, though, why do they use women? Because they know sex sells. The flesh of women sells. This is why they objectify women as just things, not human beings. T

This is my fear. It did not happen to me because I’m this way now. I’m going to be 60 in the next few years. But the next generation, if they do not stand up like real rationalists and real feminists, this will go on forever, especially in the Philippines.

The children are brainwashed like “you’re just a woman, you’re just a girl.” It’s so unfair.

31. Jacobsen: Does this denigration source itself from religion, mainly?

Langseth: That is 100% accurate because in religion the woman is supposed to be humble, should not talk, should not go against the will of the husband, should be submissive, should be subservient. And I’m the exact opposite. So, religion is poison.

That poisoned the whole society in the Philippines. Look at when before religion came to my country, there were pagans; they were worshipping the trees and the sun and the moon, at least they’re not worshipping any God.

They think that it’s nature that is God. That is even better. But when the Spaniards came, it’s all different. They became slaves. They became slaves to religion. So that’s how we got our religion. One hand the sword, the other hand the Bible. So which one will you choose?

32. Jacobsen: There was a good quote from Margaret Atwood, the Canadian author. From the Robber Bride, I pulled it up. May I be indulged to read it?

Langseth: Sure.

Jacobsen: “Male fantasies, male fantasies, is everything run by male fantasies? Up on a pedestal or down on your knees, it’s all a male fantasy: that you’re strong enough to take what they dish out, or else too weak to do anything about it. “

“Even pretending you aren’t catering to male fantasies is a male fantasy: pretending you’re unseen, pretending you have a life of your own, that you can wash your feet and comb your hair unconscious of the ever-present watcher peering through the keyhole, peering through the keyhole in your own head, if nowhere else. You are a woman with a man inside watching a woman. You are your own voyeur.”

This stuff is deeply rooted; it’s hard to extirpate. So, as a women’s rights activist myself, it has to be tackled from many, many angles, having humanist organizations is one. But also working, as you’re doing nobly, with the younger generation, it is also important, and part of that as Paul Kurtz would advocate for it, too.

Langseth: We have to band together. This is why during the HAPI Con we invited Filipino Freethinker or Red Tani. In one of my pictures, there’s a picture I presented our book. He’s also a contributing author to that book.

I specifically, personally gave him one. So, he realizes, he is important to me as an ally to our cause. They are doing great. Education and they have meet ups. A little on the higher echelon, but they don’t have an outreach movement like ours.

Like we go to the outskirts and teach children, they don’t have that. But we are allies. The bigger we are, the stronger, because there is strength in numbers and diversity. We are diversified. That’s why it’s HAPI, its international.

We are not stationed in the Philippines. I am here. We have people in California. We have people in Belgium, in other places of the world, in Germany, so I saw to it that we have diversity. Because a homogenous society sometimes cannot survive like our Filipino culture.

If they’re all Filipinos, they will not know that sense of urgency. Because I was a Filipino before. This is why I have made HAPI International. We have Americans in our group. I am a US citizen already, but I am a Filipino by heart.

We now have other citizens in the group because we can drive them. For example, I need an article for the website. I am retired, but I still run the website. I own the website. I own the domain. I paid for it, for the everything, so I demand two articles a month. That’s all.

But sometimes they still fall short. So, I always light their butts [Laughing]. I need an article! This one is a good one, please do this. That’s the only time they will move. So, Filipinos by heart, they’re like Spaniards. Mañana habit, mañana saying later, I’ll do that later.

I’ll do that tomorrow, next week, next year. And this is why we are successful. And this is the reason why. Because we have different personalities in our group. I want everything done yesterday.

You might not like me, I’m a dictator sometimes, but look what I’ve done. They called me dictator before. They called me Hitler. They called me several names because I want everything done in a timely fashion.

For example, I would say I want this merchandise done, the HAPI T-Shirt next week. After one week, I’ll be on your butt. I’ll be following you up. This is why we are successful. Look at the other groups, they don’t have community. I’m not comparing.

However, you can see the difference in a way. In a short time, HAPI is in the Philippines, we have done a lot. I want to showcase to you what we have done. Not me of course, I’m a facilitator. But we have done a lot more than any society, any irreligious society in the Philippines. In fact, the PATAS Con was the first atheist convention in South East Asia. I paid 80% of that.

Jacobsen: Wow.

Langseth: It’s because I want it done. And they say I’m such a dictator.

33. Jacobsen: And as I know with any organization, there will be many people in the Philippines who would be happy for you to fail.

Langseth: Absolutely! Believe me. That’s why I told you I get bashing from both sides. The theist side is much better bashing than the atheist side believe me. The atheists they put me to shame like who the fuck does she think she is?

Something like that. It’s bad publicity. However, I see that bad publicity is still publicity, right? This is why I’m successful. Now, I need to retire. I wanted to retire since September, 2016. I planned that because I plan everything in my life, including my retirement.

Because I want to pass the torch to the younger generation because I’m getting old. I’m not as healthy as before. I used to run. Now, I cannot run. I’m getting older. A lot of people are praying for my demise while I’m still alive. Until now, they’re still praying for my demise.

Jacobsen: To no effect, apparently.

Langseth: I’m honest, I’m straightforward. I am a bully too.

Jacobsen: That points to a substructure of the interactions you’ve had with the societies you’ve been in with the social privilege of religion.

Langseth: Yes.

Jacobsen: People talk nice about the dominant faiths, but when people talk direct, not aggressively, just direct, then it’s taken as aggressive.

Langseth: That’s me. That’s why they think I’m aggressive. I’m a dictator; I’m a bully. I said, “Yes, I have to be. Otherwise, there would be no PATAS. There would be no HAPI. We would still be the same people praising religion and praising Catholicism.”

This is the reason I’m like this. If I was not tough, there would be no PATAS. There would be no atheistic society in the Philippines. They don’t like it that I had this society, so what? And now I have HAPI, I have two.

However, the first one, again, they lost all their marbles. They even dissolved the website that I put up for them. I gave that to them for free. It was dissolved because there’s no money. There’s no funding. Because they don’t know how to do it, how to raise funds, I am a donor.

I have people who follow me. They like what I do. They give 20 dollars, 50 dollars. It adds up. If you change them to pesos, that’s a big amount. These people don’t know how to do it. That’s why I’ve been teaching them.

I’ve been teaching them fundraising. I am so flabbergasted because nobody has learned. Now, we don’t have funds right now because we all spend it in the HAPI Con, which is fine. So, that means they need to do more fundraising.

They cannot rely on me now because I’m retired. I have retired both ways. I have retired from my job. I have retired from HAPI. But still, I will donate. In fact, when I went home to the Philippines, I donated a lot. I couldn’t count anymore how many donations I have given to HAPI.

34. Jacobsen: If people want to donate to help HAPI, and the humanist, atheist, agnostic, and secularist communities within the Philippines, how can they do so? How should they do so?

Langseth: It’s easy. We have a website. That’s why we have the website. We have PayPal: donate via PayPal in the Philippines. That will go to the Philippines automatically. We have a HAPI bank because most of the Filipinos don’t have PayPal.

They don’t even know what PayPal is. So, they send their donation directly to the bank. We have PayPal for people who are abroad like me, like people in Europe. They go to our website. They read my articles, our articles and donate. We get a little here and there.

We have a few Americans who donate regularly, like 5 dollars, 10 dollars. That’s fine. I met some of them. 99% of them are my friends who donate regularly. Some are overseas Filipino workers. We have a big donor from California.

She saw our article. She’s a closet atheist. She saw our articles on the website and donated. I befriended her. Now, we’re friends. She’s been a great donor. he donated a projector, two projector sets. I gave her a book, our HAPI book. Another one is in Indiana.

I take care of our donors. They don’t know how to take care of our donors. I take good care of them, even if I’m retired. I send them books, our HAPI book, because they want to read it. Because on the dedication page of our book, I mention their names.

That’s how I took care of them because they’ve been with us since last year. That is one way to appreciate them and recognize their huge help to HAPI. I hope that they will continue to donate even if I have retired.

Of course, they are not happy. I have retired, but I have to or I’m going to be dead soon [Laughing]. I had death threats by the way. So, when I went to the Philippines for the HAPI Con, I hired two security guards. I paid them.

35. Jacobsen: That’s a common story. A common narrative of people having their lives threatened for in essence not believing in the mythology. What are you hoping for your legacy?

Langseth: I’m hoping that my legacy will continue. What I’m doing right now, I am working to improve awareness of humanism, making HAPI a better place to join in. Maybe, better than what I have done, having more education, especially science, promotion of science; and in the future if I’m still alive, I want to build a secular school.

There is one guy in Cebu who also wishes that we build a secular school. This is why he’s active with HAPI. He’s looking forward to building a secular school with me. He is promoting my legacy, which is promoting to be good without God and to believe in you and me and humanity.

So, that’s my legacy. Believe in you, to believe in me. We believe in each other, to believe in each other.

36. Jacobsen: What’s the most tragic story you’ve heard of coming from someone who came out as a non-believer?

Langseth: I have experienced at least two people coming to me. They were young kids. They were thrown out. One was thrown out from his household. One disappeared, he reappeared and I asked him, “What happened to you?”

He said he was in rehab for a long time because his parents thought that he was crazy. This guy is in Cebu. He is gay. He used to be pantheist. He became atheist because of that. He was in rehab for a while.

Whenever he had the chance, he would send me an email saying, “Miss M, when I come out, I will be like you.” Something like that. He is still in school. He is promoting the LGBT in Cebu. He promised me he is going to donate the books to the public library because his father is a politician in Cebu.

He has the teeth to do that. So, he promised he’s going to help me. He’s been following me since he was a teenager. Now, he’s like in his 20s. We knew each other when he was in California, but, again, he was told to come home to the Philippines and do rehab because of what was going on.

In fact, I had a debate with his uncle who is a doctor saying that I am brainwashing his nephew not to believe in God.

Jacobsen: It was the opposite.

Langseth: I have another one who wants to commit suicide. He is gone. I told you. I have so many experiences with these young kids coming to me and now taken away because they’re like me. One of them Gaston.

Now, he is forced to play the piano in a church. One time he sent me an email. He said he wanted to commit suicide because he is gay. He told me he is gay. I said, “That’s wonderful. There’s nothing wrong with you.”

He said, “How come my family, they want to kill me because I’m gay?!” He wants to commit suicide. I said, “No, you should not commit suicide, hide your identity and go with the flow for now until you become self-sufficient and get away.”

So, they forced him to go into a school. I forgot which school, some religious school and now he plays the piano for the church. And there’s another one, at 12-years-old, I met him in 2011. His mother was even there when they attended the PATAS convention.

I made a good impression because we are good people. Suddenly, he disappeared. He said his mother did not like that he was going out with people like me. I said, “But I met her. She thought I was nice.”

He said, “Yes, but then again, there was pressure from her mother’s family.” There you go. And that the whole neighbourhood told him that he should not become an atheist. So, he went back to school and he was threatened. He was told if you will not stop that foolishness we will send you to school. So, he has no choice.

References

  1. Angeles, M. (2012, August 20). World Trade Center ‘cross’ causes religious dispute among Fil-Ams. Retrieved from http://news.abs-cbn.com/global-filipino/08/20/12/world-trade-center-cross-causes-religious-dispute-among-fil-ams.
  2. Atheist Republic. (2014, September 10). Marissa Torres Langseth: Freethinking groups can achieve a common goal. Retrieved from http://www.atheistrepublic.com/gallery/marissa-torres-langseth-freethinking-groups-can-achieve-common-goal.
  3. Comelab, M. (2012, May 26). Filipino Atheists Becoming More Active. Retrieved from http://mail.reasonism.org/main-content/item/2689-filipino-atheists-becoming-more-active.
  4. Duke, B. (2011, April 28). The Pope’s gonna have a cow. Catholic Philippines gains its first atheist society. Retrieved from http://freethinker.co.uk/2011/04/28/the-pope%E2%80%99s-gonna-have-a-cow-catholic-philippines-gains-its-first-atheist-society/.
  5. French, M. (2017, March 5). The New Atheists of the Philippines. Retrieved from https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/03/new-atheists-philippines/518175/.
  6. Langseth, M.T. (2011, June 1). Atheism in the Philippines: A Personal Story. Retrieved from https://thehumanist.com/news/hnn/atheism-in-the-philippines-a-personal-story.
  7. Langseth, M.T. (2017, April 14). FROM SUPERSTITION TO REASON: JOURNEYS TO HUMANISM/ATHEISM BY HAPI. Retrieved from http://thescientificatheist.com/author/marissa/.
  8. Langseth, M.T. (2013, March 20). Kwentong Kapuso: Registered nurses and the alphabet soup of nursing. Retrieved from http://www.gmanetwork.com/news/news/pinoyabroad/300110/kwentong-kapuso-registered-nurses-and-the-alphabet-soup-of-nursing/story/.
  9. Meyer, E. (2017, March 7). Atheist missionaries are spreading humanist ideals in the Philippines. Retrieved from https://wwrn.org/articles/46700/.
  10. Universal Life Church Monstery. (2017, March 27). Filipino Atheists Pulling from the Christian Missionary Playbook. Retrieved from https://www.themonastery.org/blog/2017/03/filipino-atheists-using-the-christian-missionary-playbook/.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Founder, PATAS; Founder, HAPI.

[2] Individual Publication Date: January 1, 2018 at www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-one; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2018 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Post-Master’s degree, Certificate for Adult Nurse Practitioner with prescriptive privileges – College of Mount Saint Vincent, NY, USA; M.S.N., Adult Health, CUNY, NYC, USA; B.S.N., University of San Carlos, Cebu, Philippines.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Marissa Torres Langseth.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth (Part One) [Online].January 2018; 16(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-one.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, January 1). An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth (Part One). Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-one.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A, January. 2018. <www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-one>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2018. “An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-one.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 16.A (January 2018). www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-one.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth (Part One)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 16.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-one>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 16.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-one.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 15.A (2017):December. 2017. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-one>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Marissa Torres Langseth (Part One) [Internet]. (2017, December; 15(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/langseth-one.

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In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2017-12-22

An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud, M.A. (Part Three)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 15.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Eleven)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: December 22, 2017

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2018

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,786

ISSN 2369-6885

houzan-1.jpg

Abstract

An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud, M.A. She discusses: Kurdish artists and authors; pretexts for war; feminist activism; dictators and religious fundamentalists being mostly men; inspiration from religious belief, or not; religious authorities in line with herself; love and death; middle of life; and Western interventions in the Middle East. 

Keywords: Culture Project, feminism, Houzan Mahmoud, Iraq, Kurdistan, Kurds.

An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud, M.A.: Co-Founder, Culture Project (Part Three)[1],[2],[3],[4]

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: When it comes to the catastrophes and tragic consequences of war, literature and poetry provide windows through the confusion and misunderstanding around the horrors and miseries, and misinformation and disinformation, around war.

Any Kurdish artists or authors who speak of war?

Houzan Mahmoud: Well, I think wars always existed from the ancient times until today, in different times and under different pretexts: be it tribal, religious, nationalistic, or imperialistic. Different people relate to war in different ways.

Women, men, poets, writers, activists, victims, and soldiers have their own stories to tell us. Literature and poetry also at times play a role in either promoting war, or depicting its causes and consequences in a way that people relate to it, or it shows the suffering and sorrows experienced during the war.

Due to the many ordeals Kurds have suffered and continue to suffer, various poets and novelists, both men and women narrated the war and its aftermath.

2. Jacobsen: Pain and misery are inevitable parts of life, but they can be mitigated. At times, war becomes necessary. What pretexts seem reasonable for war? Obviously, many wars barely meet minimal standards and violate so many things.

Mahmoud: Well, most wars are really useless and baseless with the consequences of the killing of ordinary civilians and sending soldiers to battlefields to destroy lives and lands, which are crimes that do not deserve legitimisation.

Resistance is necessary only when you are invaded. You have no other option apart from resisting and defending your life and land. The latest example is an ISIS attack on Kurdistan, where people women, men, old and young all took up arms to defend their cities and lives.

ISIS could not be stopped through negotiations, as they view Kurds as infidels, and, therefore, their lands, possessions, and women are spoils of war. It’s a jihad in their eyes.  With such an abhorrent collective religious attitude, what else one can do apart from resisting?

It is in such cases when I see resistance as a must and essential to survival.

3. Jacobsen: What do you value more coming out of the trauma of war? How does feminist activism embolden you?

Mahmoud: The fact that I am still alive and can experience life itself is an achievement. I grew up in a war zone, as I explained in other parts of this interview, because I was living in Kurdistan-Iraq. We were under the dictatorship too. One war after another, there was a constant atmosphere of fear, anxiety, and worry.

Not knowing what will happen next, where will we end up? How will we be killed? Even, how soon?

In addition to this, I grew up in a political family, who were involved in armed struggle against Saddam’s dictatorship. I grew up in a house where political activists would always come and discuss politics, Left perspectives on social issues, secularism, Marxism, and so on.

My best time was when summer holidays would come around for us. I would go to visit my brothers and their comrades in the mountains. We had to go to see them, secretly, without the regime knowing; otherwise, we would have been arrested.

Everything was dangerous. I could see all these partisans; wonderful comrades who were so dedicated to a noble cause for ordinary people.  I loved being around them.

I was very little. As years passed by, I experienced all of these wars and the dictatorship. It didn’t feel like anything; it became part of our lives. In other words, it became a way of life.

One thing I remember is, I felt numb. I couldn’t really think or figure out what was going on and why; there was no time to reflect on that or to discuss it, even think about what was happening.

One thing, which probably saved me, was to be surrounded by my revolutionary family, who had hope for a better future, who fought for it, but sadly in this process we lost our beloved brother.

He was assassinated by the regime. I was only fifteen when he was assassinated near our house, I could hear the shooting, when we went out we saw our brother killed. This is when the war, dictatorship, revolution, sacrifices, and politics all became real.

Before this, I felt I was in a cloud, or in a bubble maybe, but the horror was so real at that moment. I feel the shock to this day. I realised that someone whom I loved and learnt so much from is no longer among us.

This is the biggest loss. I always remember him, not a day is passed without thinking about him, his ideals, hopes, and dreams. I long to see him all the time. He had an immense influence on me, my thinking, and upbringing.

The level of oppression and state terror were so visible in our country. If you didn’t have a hope and vision for future, you could not survive. This is why we cannot be passive witnesses of wars, dictatorships, and injustice; we need to act and resist.

Feminism is my saviour. It connected me back with myself as a woman. I can relate to the world as me and as a woman. That’s why keeping women’s rights on top of every agenda is my priority. Feminism makes you strong. There is no doubt about it.

4. Jacobsen: Many of the dictators and religious fundamentalist leaders causing problems are men. It seems like a simple observation, almost a truism of history. Why?

Mahmoud: The problem: if we trace all these movements, politics, religions, and ideology, we realise they were initially only male domains. Women only made their way into them by long struggles for recognition.

This is why these movements are patriarchal, and religions, in essence, are man-made, masculine, and misogynist. This is why they are male dominated and, unfortunately, even if women join such fundamental groups they are treated as inferior or are used for (Jihad al Nikah) i.e. Jihad Marriage.

Let’s not forget dictators and systems of power are all patriarchal in nature.

5. Jacobsen: What strands of religious belief inspire you? By which I mean, even though you hold no formal doctrine, scripture, religious patriarch or matriarch, or leaders in unquestionably high esteem, there must be some that seem ordinary, lovely, and integrated into advanced notions of ethics, such as those found in The Golden Rule and its derivations.

Mahmoud: As you know, I am not religious. I don’t admire any religions. The imaginary gods and religions are all man made. Therefore, they are patriarchal. However, there are many wonderful people who practice religions. They are amazing people. One such person was my own mother.

From an early age, she was taught to pray and follow Islam, so she was a devout Muslim, as you know we are Kurdish, so she didn’t speak a word of Arabic. All her praying was in Arabic, though. She kept on praying and reciting Quranic verses and so on.

Although, I left Islam at an early age. I didn’t really think it was a religion that fits my ideals, but my mother who practiced Islam symbolised a person of high hopes, kindness, and a heart of gold.

She had so many good values. She cared so much about others. She would share anything she had with other people. If there is any religious matriarch, then I would choose my mother to be my Goddess.

Because she was beautiful in nature and always reminded us that we don’t stay in this world forever. It is better to do good, to be remembered for our good doing. Despite the fact that my mother followed religion, and practiced it, she had a set of values and norms that were so humane and universal.

6. Jacobsen: Who is a religious authority that seems in line with your own social, political, and ethical intuitions, convictions, and sentiments?

Mahmoud: There is none. I have organised my life around secular values, I do not aspire to any religions and their sentiments. I think I can do better without it. You don’t need a god or religious figure to tell you what to do; we can think, decide, and act on issues related to our lives, relations, and aspiration in life.

7. Jacobsen: In life, love remains profound. Its loss a revelation to most of their absolute fragility to the world, to others and themselves. Death and love at once become unifiers for everyone. I witnessed a death of a close one, recently.

Someone transitioning from life to death in an instant in front of me. I do not talk about these topics, personal things, in public often, but I wanted to touch on this with you. Someone I loved and cared for, deeply, died.

Love gives meaning, depth, and a seeming long-term narrative to a transitory existence. Any life tips for those undergoing the pain of loss with the privilege to mourn the loss rather than having to run and never properly mourn the death of loved ones in war zones?

Mahmoud: I am so sorry to hear that you have lost a loved one recently. One thing I learnt in life, is when someone close to us dies, it really is very difficult specially if they are killed, or if they die before you see them.

When my mother was ill, I was informed by my family that she was not well. I was arranging to go back to see her for one last time. Unfortunately, by the time I got there, she was dead already. It was really very difficult.

I was very sad and kept telling myself, “Why are we so scattered and uprooted? Why does this have to happen to me? I wish I was beside my mother’s bed when she died.”

People in our countries that are torn by war and conflict. They don’t live and die in peace. I believe that our loved ones even when they depart that they will remain with us. It is important to remember them and keep them in our hearts.

It is important to mourn and grief; it is a humane thing, but it is also important to carry on living and be positive about life. No matter what happens life is beautiful and while we are here we should try to enjoy it.

Death is a very difficult subject to talk about, as individuals we all relate to it differently, and to various extent we are all afraid of it. I think we want to live long, or perhaps we think we are immortal.

8. Jacobsen: You are in the middle of life. What gives you meaning now that did not before? What used to give you meaning that does not now?

Mahmoud: Of course, there are so many things that I did when I was young I thought they were great, but now when I think about it. I laugh. I think it was childish to do that. One thing that gives my life meaning is my struggle for freedom and justice.

This has not changed. Instead, I become more determined with age. Ok let me tell you this, when I was young, I would fall in love, dramatically. Yet on the same speed, I would fall out of it dramatically too.

Again, I laugh at those days now. With age again, you become more strong and stable. Perhaps, more rational in matters to do with life, I think we should take it easy and see everything as a product of its time.

Humans are not fixed categories. We change with time, with age, and with changing our environment. We should let ourselves be, and experience situations as they come. We have to be relaxed and content with ourselves.

9. Jacobsen: What did the US-UK-Canada, and others, do right in their various wars in the Middle East within your lifetime?

Mahmoud: To be honest I have never seen anything good coming out from Western intervention in the Middle East; let’s not forget, every intervention they make under the name of human rights, getting rid of a dictator, or bringing democracy for the common people are simply different excuses to keep military presence in this region of the world.

Their presence has nothing to do with people’s lives, rights, freedoms, or democracy, but it has everything to do with their political and economic interests in addition to asserting their supremacy or hegemony.

All they brought was different weapons. It was all used and tried on ordinary civilians. Casualties of these wars are endless. They damaged these countries forever in every aspect.

References

  1. Fantappie, M. (2011, January 30). Houzan Mahmoud of Owfi Tells Us About Her Role in the Struggle for Equality in Iraq and Kurdistan. Retrieved from https://www.w4.org/en/wowwire/equality-human-rights-social-justice-in-iraq-kurdistan/.
  2. IHEU. (2008, September 31). Volunteer of the month: Houzan Mahmoud. Retrieved from http://iheu.org/volunteer-of-the-month-houzan-mahmoud/.
  3. Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, December 8). An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud, M.A. (Part One). Retrieved from https://in-sightjournal.com/2017/12/08/mahmoud-one/.
  4. Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, December 15). An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud, M.A. (Part Two). Retrieved from https://in-sightjournal.com/2017/12/08/mahmoud-two/.
  5. Jacobsen, S.D (2017, July 4). Interview with Houzan Mahmoud – Co-Founder, The Culture Project. Retrieved from http://conatusnews.com/interview-houzan-mahmoud/.
  6. Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, June 24). An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud — Co-Founder, Culture Project. Retrieved from https://medium.com/humanist-voices/an-interview-with-houzan-mahmoud-co-founder-the-culture-project-7c8861d186a1.
  7. Mahmoud, H. (2006, September 27). A dark anniversary. Retrieved from https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/sep/27/ontheoccasionof24thseptember.
  8. Mahmoud, H. (2006, June 12). A symptom of Iraq’s tragedy. Retrieved from https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/jun/12/theendofzarqawitheusmade.
  9. Mahmoud, H. (2004, March 8). An empty sort of freedom. Retrieved from https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/mar/08/iraq.gender.
  10. Mahmoud, H. (2005, August 14). Houzan Mahmoud: Iraq must reject a constitution that enslaves women. Retrieved from http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/houzan-mahmoud-iraq-must-reject-a-constitution-that-enslaves-women-5347236.html.
  11. Mahmoud, H. (2005, January 28). Houzan Mahmoud: Why I Am Not Taking Part in These Phoney Elections. Retrieved from https://www.vday.org/node/989.html.
  12. Mahmoud, H. (2007, May 2). Human chattel. Retrieved from https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2007/may/02/humanchattel.
  13. Mahmoud, H. (2006, October 7). It’s not a matter of choice. Retrieved from https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/oct/07/wearingtheveilhasneverbee.
  14. Mahmoud, H. (2014, October 10). Kobane Experience Will Live On. Retrieved from http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/houzan-mahmoud/kobane-isis_b_5958150.html.
  15. Mahmoud, H. (2014, October 7). Kurdish Female Fighters and Kobanê Style Revolution. Retrieved from http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/houzan-mahmoud/kurdish-female-fighters-_b_5944382.html.
  16. Mahmoud, H. (2016, November 1). Mosul And The Plight Of Women. Retrieved from http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/houzan-mahmoud/mosul-isis-women_b_12740882.html.
  17. Mahmoud, H. (2006, October 17). The price of freedom. Retrieved from https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/oct/17/655000isnotjustanumber.
  18. Mahmoud, H. (2007, April 13). We say no to a medieval Kurdistan. Retrieved from https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2007/apr/13/thefightforsecularisminku1.
  19. Mahmoud, H. (2007, December 21). What honour in killing?. Retrieved from https://www.newstatesman.com/international-politics/2007/12/women-rights-iraqi-honour.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Co-Founder, Culture Project.

[2] Individual Publication Date: December 22, 2017 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/mahmoud-three; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2018 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] MA, Gender Studies, SOAS-University of London.

[4] Photographs courtesy of Houzan Mahmoud.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud, M.A. (Part Three) [Online].December 2017; 15(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/mahmoud-three.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, December 22). An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud, M.A. (Part Three). Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/mahmoud-three.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud, M.A. (Part Three). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A, December. 2017. <www.in-sightjournal.com/mahmoud-three>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud, M.A. (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/mahmoud-three.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud, M.A. (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A (December 2017). www.in-sightjournal.com/mahmoud-three.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud, M.A. (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 15.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/mahmoud-three>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud, M.A. (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 15.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/mahmoud-three.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud, M.A. (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 15.A (2017):December. 2017. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/mahmoud-three>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud, M.A. (Part Three) [Internet]. (2017, December; 15(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/mahmoud-three.

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© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2017-12-15

An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud, M.A. (Part Two)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 15.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Eleven)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: December 15, 2017

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,345

ISSN 2369-6885

 

Abstract

An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud, M.A. She discusses: UK, Canada, and complicity in activity around Iraq and Kurdistan; the ongoing Iraq and Afghanistan wars; helping with the Culture Project and what it is; the Culture Project act as a repository and incubator for the arts and culture of the Kurds; helping out with money or expertise; war, trauma, rights, and asking why people act this way; and wondering why people can’t be like other animals, like birds that sing. 

Keywords: Culture Project, feminism, Houzan Mahmoud, Iraq, Kurdistan, Kurds.

An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud, M.A.: Co-Founder, Culture Project (Part Two)[1],[2],[3],[4]

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Take an example of a developed country such as the UK, or Canada, are they complicit in any of this activity in Iraq and regarding Kurdistan?

Houzan Mahmoud: The UK certainly was complicit in dividing Kurdistan among four countries, i.e. between Iraq, Iran, Syria and Turkey, due to this we have been suffering endlessly. After the fall of Ottoman Empire and the new reshaping of the map of the Middle East, the borders were drawn, genocides were taking place, and Kurds were denied their right to statehood.

For almost one century, in four different parts of Kurdistan, people waged different struggles – both armed and civilian struggles – to fight for their rights, freedoms, and independence. The four countries that we are confined within, their borders have continuously denied Kurds basic rights and inflicted genocide, imprisonment, and even cultural erasure.

These have been part of their policies towards Kurds. This is why most Kurds never felt a belonging to these countries. Rather, they felt oppressed, degraded, and colonised in their own homelands.

The West, of course, has always kept a blind eye to our suffering. Instead of recognising our rights, all they do, for example in the UK, is to emphasize the unity of Iraq. They know that Iraqi regimes have always oppressed people and carried out crimes against people throughout Iraq, especially against Kurds. Canada also was part of the coalition against Iraq in the first Gulf War in 1991.

2. Jacobsen: What are the quantitative details about women and children, and soldiers, who have been affected by the ongoing Iraq and Afghanistan wars?

Mahmoud: This is beyond knowing. I don’t think even statistics can provide a true account of the loss of lives and casualties of these nasty wars. Although, when we think of war, people mainly think about the number of the dead, but we need to also think about those who are disabled, lost their loved ones, who are traumatised, and have to live with the sorrow of losing their loved one.

The consequences of any war and its damage is not only in the number of the dead, but in the entire destruction of lands, homes, dreams, and turning laughter into a long-lasting sadness. War can turn your life upside down within minutes.

I can think of the recent example of the invasion of Sinjar. The Yezidi town where ISIS killed so many of them. ISIS took the girls as sex slaves and sold so many of them in slave markets. Just imagine, so much crime within an eye blink turned so many lives into hell.

There is more ugliness, more crime, and atrocious outcomes that can never be fully investigated or accounted for, because so many complicit parties in wars don’t want to go into these details. All I really can say is in every war situation that the ordinary civilians have been and will be the main and only victims.

3. Jacobsen: I have helped with the Culture Project. What is it? How is it important to the Kurds and yourself?

Mahmoud: Well, let me tell you something Scott: first of all, thank you so much for your ongoing support, it means a lot to us and our writers and Kurdistan of course. In addition to the fact, that you are probably the first journalist who could make me visit my past as someone who grew up in a war zone, and reflect upon it, otherwise, I wouldn’t usually write or talk about it in such detail.

We have many wonderful writers in the Culture Project and want their work to be proofread and edited to encourage them to write more, and to be sure that their writings are of high calibre and importance.

Secondly, there are other wonderful supporters who were the backbone of Culture Project, one such person is Benjamin David founder of Conatus News, and writer and friend Sarah Mills who have helped tremendously. I want to thank you all for making time to support us, and our writers, essayist, activists and poets.

4. Jacobsen: How does the Culture Project act as a repository and incubator for the arts and culture of the Kurds?

Mahmoud: Culture Project is a unique project that promotes progressive ideals, and critical engagement with art, literature, music, feminism, and gender. We place the question of women in the heart of our project. This is why it is important to make sure our platform is supportive and encouraging to those who want to express their ideas in English.

We are trying to bridge between Kurdistan, its Kurdish diaspora, and the outside world through knowledge production about our society, art, literature, and cultural production, but from a critical point of view.

We are lucky to have a new wave of egalitarian and progressive generation of men and women, who are active against patriarchy, oppressive regimes, and are for rights and freedoms of women.

One highlight of this project is that it’s exposing Kurdish masculinity, violence against women, and advocates for feminism and feminist critique of artistic production that reinforces subordination of women.

5. Jacobsen: How can people help out? Can they donate money or expertise?

Mahmoud: We need all kinds of support. Financial support for our activities in Kurdistan and abroad. As well as expertise from those who know more about art, literature and editing, we need reviewers for artists’ work, music, films, and short stories as well as poetry. We have a wealth of Kurdish literature, art, and poetry that needs exploration and reviewing.

6. Jacobsen: We were talking one time about war and trauma, and women’s rights. You idly asked, “Why are people like this? Why do they go to war? Will they ever learn? Why do they repeat these same mistakes?” I mentioned the several tens of thousands of years of evolutionary history and gave an academic response.

You know Scott, sometimes, I realise that despite the wealth of literature on war, be it history books, poetry, photography, movies etc., some people still don’t ask themselves this simple question; why war?

Why should they support their oppressive governments into war? Hundreds of years of repetitive wars in different contexts and format, still humanity cannot learn from the past. It’s true most ordinary civilians are often opposed to war, but it is governments who decide it and they are the ruling class who do not suffer themselves but it’s the ordinary people who pay the price.

I wish one day comes when people no longer go to war on the order of their government. Another thing makes me feel sick when I think about it, is the use of science in the civilised west and its scientists who continue to produce latest weapons and atomic bombs. Have you realised how many governments possess atomic bombs?

Just imagine if they were used in any wars what will happen to our beautiful planet? To life, to people to animals, trees and flowers, to the birds and even insects? I wish the “clever” scientists of the advanced capitalist machine ask themselves this question why creating all these weapons? Why not try to find cure for disease instead?

Why not spend their lives in a good cause to serve humanity instead of thinking and working day and night of how to invent a new weapon, rocket, bomb or bullet. This is gross, this why sometimes I question the word “human beings” in this case, what kind of humans are they?

7. However, we kept going. You agreed with the explanation, but asked, “Why can’t people be like other animals, like the birds? All they do is sing.” We laughed about that. I reflect on that and think about it.

Mahmoud: Yes, indeed, we did speak about so many things and with some laughter. You know Scott, these issues are so tough, and sad. If I lose sense of humour, I might get trapped in these memories for ever in a very sad and traumatising way.

This not to reduce the importance of these issues. But for us as survivors and activists who fight against the causes of these wars and for rights of people, we have to be hopeful, full of life, and love laughter, songs, and music.

This is why I like birds. They produce these nice sounds, almost as a special song of their own. When I go to the park, especially to Hampstead Heath, I look out for the birds. Those who sing, without any particular reason. They just sing. This makes me happy.

You know Scott, the more we read about war academically or in literature or poetry, even in photos or art about war, it still cannot tell us enough about the reasons of why wars still happen. Why men specifically speaking go to war or make war?

The problem is end of one war is the start of another one. This is what I have seen in my life. No reasoning, justification or excuse can legitimize any war in my opinion.

As much as I am against war, and hate war, and those who start war, I think to myself, “When you are invaded, then you need resistance. When there is resistance, there is glorification. When there is glorification, then there is sacrifice and the story goes on, till we see there is too much destruction and many lives are lost.”

Growing up as a Kurd, we were and still always are a project for invasion and colonisation. This is why resistance is important and often necessary to survival.

I hope there comes one day when the capitalist countries stop making weapons and selling them to our government. I hope that human beings come to a state where they no longer resort to war and invasion of other countries. I just want to live in peace and see peace prevail on our planet.

References

  1. Fantappie, M. (2011, January 30). Houzan Mahmoud of Owfi Tells Us About Her Role in the Struggle for Equality in Iraq and Kurdistan. Retrieved from https://www.w4.org/en/wowwire/equality-human-rights-social-justice-in-iraq-kurdistan/.
  2. IHEU. (2008, September 31). Volunteer of the month: Houzan Mahmoud. Retrieved from http://iheu.org/volunteer-of-the-month-houzan-mahmoud/.
  3. Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, December 8). An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud, M.A. (Part One). Retrieved from https://in-sightjournal.com/2017/12/08/mahmoud-one/.
  4. Jacobsen, S.D (2017, July 4). Interview with Houzan Mahmoud – Co-Founder, The Culture Project. Retrieved from http://conatusnews.com/interview-houzan-mahmoud/.
  5. Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, June 24). An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud — Co-Founder, Culture Project. Retrieved from https://medium.com/humanist-voices/an-interview-with-houzan-mahmoud-co-founder-the-culture-project-7c8861d186a1.
  6. Mahmoud, H. (2006, September 27). A dark anniversary. Retrieved from https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/sep/27/ontheoccasionof24thseptember.
  7. Mahmoud, H. (2006, June 12). A symptom of Iraq’s tragedy. Retrieved from https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/jun/12/theendofzarqawitheusmade.
  8. Mahmoud, H. (2004, March 8). An empty sort of freedom. Retrieved from https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/mar/08/iraq.gender.
  9. Mahmoud, H. (2005, August 14). Houzan Mahmoud: Iraq must reject a constitution that enslaves women. Retrieved from http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/houzan-mahmoud-iraq-must-reject-a-constitution-that-enslaves-women-5347236.html.
  10. Mahmoud, H. (2005, January 28). Houzan Mahmoud: Why I Am Not Taking Part in These Phoney Elections. Retrieved from https://www.vday.org/node/989.html.
  11. Mahmoud, H. (2007, May 2). Human chattel. Retrieved from https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2007/may/02/humanchattel.
  12. Mahmoud, H. (2006, October 7). It’s not a matter of choice. Retrieved from https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/oct/07/wearingtheveilhasneverbee.
  13. Mahmoud, H. (2014, October 10). Kobane Experience Will Live On. Retrieved from http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/houzan-mahmoud/kobane-isis_b_5958150.html.
  14. Mahmoud, H. (2014, October 7). Kurdish Female Fighters and Kobanê Style Revolution. Retrieved from http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/houzan-mahmoud/kurdish-female-fighters-_b_5944382.html.
  15. Mahmoud, H. (2016, November 1). Mosul And The Plight Of Women. Retrieved from http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/houzan-mahmoud/mosul-isis-women_b_12740882.html.
  16. Mahmoud, H. (2006, October 17). The price of freedom. Retrieved from https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/oct/17/655000isnotjustanumber.
  17. Mahmoud, H. (2007, April 13). We say no to a medieval Kurdistan. Retrieved from https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2007/apr/13/thefightforsecularisminku1.
  18. Mahmoud, H. (2007, December 21). What honour in killing?. Retrieved from https://www.newstatesman.com/international-politics/2007/12/women-rights-iraqi-honour.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Co-Founder, Culture Project.

[2] Individual Publication Date: December 15, 2017 at www.in-sightjournal.com; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] MA, Gender Studies, SOAS-University of London.

[4] Photographs courtesy of Houzan Mahmoud.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud, M.A. (Part Two) [Online].December 2017; 15(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/mahmoud-two.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, December 15). An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud, M.A. (Part Two). Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/mahmoud-two.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud, M.A. (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A, December. 2017. <www.in-sightjournal.com/mahmoud-two>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud, M.A. (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/mahmoud-two.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud, M.A. (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A (December 2017). www.in-sightjournal.com/mahmoud-two.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud, M.A. (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 15.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/mahmoud-two>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud, M.A. (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 15.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/mahmoud-two.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud, M.A. (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 15.A (2017):December. 2017. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/mahmoud-two>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud, M.A. (Part One) [Internet]. (2017, December; 15(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/mahmoud-two.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2017-12-08

An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud, M.A. (Part One)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 15.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Eleven)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: December 8, 2017

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,682

ISSN 2369-6885

 

Abstract

An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud, M.A. She discusses: impact of war on personal life; injustice and death in home territory; the impulse for war and atrocities; previous and current Iraq governments; respects for Kurds and Kurdish Culture; impact on women and children, as innocents in general; and rebuilding a generation who lost education, nutrition, family members, and reliable governmental support and institutions.

Keywords: Culture Project, feminism, Houzan Mahmoud, Iraq, Kurdistan, Kurds.

An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud, M.A.: Co-Founder, Culture Project (Part One)[1],[2],[3],[4]

1.Scott Douglas Jacobsen: When I reflect on the nature of war and conflict, the statistics tell one story. The personal narratives tell another. You experienced war, so I want to explore the latter with you. We did some work together, whether interviews or editing articles for Culture Project. How did war impact your life?

Houzan Mahmoud: This is a long story. It’s not easy to describe it. I shared the pain and sorrow of horrors of war with my family, friends, neighbours, and thousands of others. Therefore, telling my own story might be a fraction of a very small part of a huge story, the problem is those people who haven’t seen war, and only get statistics about it. They really have no clue how ugly, insane, and inhumane war is.

There is nothing humane about it. It’s only about bullets, air raids, bombardments, and shootings. It is all about sounds, sounds of bombs, and the wounded, really nasty and annoying sounds of different levels. Sometimes, even when the war is over, it stays with you.

Anything that falls, breaks, or explodes, even if it has nothing to do with war. It still connects with the images of war, the sounds and noises, and the destruction comes alive again in your mind. There is another thing I hate most along with war: the military uniform, especially of those that belonged to Saddam Hussein’s regime.

That particular clothing of men and their guns was repulsive, as it will always stay in your mind as a symbol of killing. Men in uniforms who kill. I spent the first twenty years of my life like this. I witnessed the Iraq-Iran war, the sanctions, the first Gulf War, then the Kurdish uprising in 1991 and its aftermath of instability.

2. Jacobsen: How did you cope, if you did, experiencing or witnessing widespread injustice and death in the home territory?

Mahmoud: Interestingly, you do cope. Sometimes, you get used to the situation. You become creative in finding life in small things that might have not mattered to you before. You try your best to protect your life, because it becomes more precious to you. You will do your best to live.

You want to live more. It may be the idea of a better life and future helped us to cope better. The idea that one day the war will be over. That we can start a normal life again. The reality is even when the war ends life is never like before again. By the end of the war, we would have lost many of our loved ones. We would have sorrowed and grieved.

Sometimes, you might even think the dead are the luckiest because they are gone, and we are here to pick up pieces, to mourn and to remember the bombs, the rockets, the air raids, in addition to living under dictator.

To sum up, the love of life, the beauty of this planet, and my ideals for a world without war, without the suffering of human beings keeps me going. I enjoy nature. I love seeing flowers, trees, and parks, but also human creativity such as art, music, cinema, and dance.

There is a lot to be happy about in life. I see all of what happened to me as different chapters of my life. Today, I live a new chapter of my life. I am happy to have survived, but I always remember those who didn’t make it. Their memories will stay with me forever.

3. Jacobsen: What impulse does war serve for us? Why do men commit most of the atrocities, to you?

Mahmoud: It is hard to have this discussion, there has been a lot of writings, talks and research into ‘why war happens?’ From sociological, psychological, political, economic and cultural aspects, at the same time, it’s hard to come up with one concrete answer.

Let’s not forget that after the First World War, there were more than ten million people who died in the battle fields in Europe.  Two leading thinkers (Sigmund Freud and Albert Einstein) started to debate as to why, what could be the reason. Is it human’s destructive impulse, the lust for hate and destruction as Einstein wrote to Freud? What could be the reason?

They were shocked and burdened by the war themselves, but, look, even the Second World War broke out, and then many more wars across the world in different times and places.

I find it hard to solely blame this on human nature and assert that humans by nature harbour hate and violence. A lot of this violence and hatred is learnt. It is taught by the state through its apparatuses such as education, military, religion, media, and political ideology in general.

I have been at the receiving end of so many wars. I never wanted to be; I never harboured hate towards the people on the other side.

I saw a state, a bloody nation-state, backed by international forces, where weapons were sold to Iraq and Iran by the “civilised” western government, but we the ordinary people on both sides were the victims. Or those who were forced into military conscription had to go and fight a war that had nothing to do with them. So many soldiers who were ordinary people from the poor background died in these wars for nothing.

In our case, even when I look at it now, a lot of countries in the Middle East are drowning in bloodshed. There is a huge intervention by imperialists. They have an interest – both political and economic.

I, therefore, would find a Marxian approach to war more accurate in terms of its focus on modern wars are results of the competition for resources and markets between great imperialist powers, maintaining that these wars are expected consequences of the capitalist class system and their free market.

You hardly see men from the upper ruling classes die in these wars. You see mostly or only the poor who in the process of war become a burning fuel for the capitalist killing machines. Imperialists vying for the monopoly of power, expansion, and resources using religion, race, nationality, and other excuses to invade, kill, and occupy places.

4. Jacobsen: How does the current leadership of Iraq compare with the prior leadership?

Mahmoud: It is really not a good idea to compare. What do I compare this new Iraqi regime with? With the previous regime of genocide, dictatorship, a government that was responsible for mass graves and mass exactions? It is very sad to be comparing regimes after forty years of oppression and dictatorship.

The current Iraqi regime was a product of US/UK occupation, so they gave birth to it. It is an ethno-sectarian and religious establishment. They are so corrupt and indulged in inner fighting between different sects of Islam. They didn’t have time to fight with Kurds in the beginning.

There was the referendum of Kurdistan, which was even non-binding, where people peacefully voted and expressed their wish to be independent from Iraq. Yet, they brought their worst militias to invade Kurdistan and the language they use in their media and official statements is very similar to the language that was used under Saddam’s regime against Kurds.

I have opposed this Islamist and ethno-sectarian regimes from its establishment and there is no hope in them.

5. Jacobsen: Do they respect the Kurds or Kurdish culture?

Mahmoud: They respect no one, let alone Kurds. These are militia-based political parties, extremely sectarian. They act as mercenaries for regional as well as international powers.

Kurds have always had high aspirations for freedom, social justice, and rights. They don’t accept being treated as second-class citizens in their own lands. We have a history of the struggle for our rights. We will oppose whoever undermines and takes away those rights from us: be it a Kurdish government or Arab, or Islamists, and so on.

It is a basic human dignity. No one accepts being degraded and treated like a half-human or subordinate. Kurdistan has always been the centre of progressive politics, the left and progressive movements always were established there. The current revolution of Rojava is the latest example of an inclusive, egalitarian alternative.

When political parties in the Iraqi government have no ideological bases that recognises basic human rights and dignity, then they haven’t learnt the lesson, they only continue with their nationalistic, almost fascistic, rhetoric of ‘Iraqi unity’, and so on.

They have been dividing Iraq along lines of religious sects, ethnic backgrounds, and persecuting religious people who are not Muslims like Yezidis, Christians, and Shabaks.

Imagine if a government is such a failure and they have been fuelling the division and instead of making human rights and equal citizenship superior to every sectarian agenda then people will not call for break-up of Iraq.

6. Jacobsen: How does war impact women and children who remain innocent?

Mahmoud: Like in every war, women are the target due to their gender. Rape is always used as a weapon of war. For example, in the latest invasion of Kurdistan by Iraqi militias, there are many reports that they have raped Kurdish women and exploded homes of Kurdish civilians.

They are not even shy. They post them on social media, how they torture Kurdish men, how they kill them, and how they abuse the children and the elderly. Such militias are war criminals and mercenaries, who don’t think, but only kill and rape.

This takes the question to women’s armed resistance and how self-defence is as important as defending the cities from invaders. Unfortunately, these women were defenceless ordinary civilians, who never thought they would be victims of rape by the army or criminal gangsters of a government that claims to be our government and wants us to live in a “united” Iraq.

7. Jacobsen: How does a country rebuild a generation who lost education, nutrition, family members, and reliable governmental support and institutions?

Mahmoud: To such governments, people’s welfare is the last thing they would think about. Imagine that Iraq is turned into a mafia land, a bunch of mafia with armed militias, and weapons protecting only their own interest both politically and financially.

They always need a story to maintain a narrative that the “nation” or the “country” is in danger in order to start small wars to send poor people to be killed, then they make people forget about their rights, health, education, housing: everything.

They came to power in 2003. To this day, most people don’t have electricity, clean water, or medicine. Iraq, including Kurdistan, is up for grabs. This is how it has operated since then. Multinational companies and local corrupt rulers have turned people’s lives into a living hell. So, there are no institutions as such, all corrupt, and dysfunctional. They have more alignments to one party or another. The interests of the citizen is the last thing that counts.

Iraq is a name only, empty of content, empty of the most basic human rights and dignity. If you hear the rhetoric of politicians in these regions, what they say under the name of “nation,” “country,” and “our people” is overwhelming, you would say, “Wow, what great politicians, they love their people. They are doing all they can for them…” In reality, it’s only lies and nonsense. The rhetoric that every dictator is saying and using against the best interests of the common person, the citizenry.

I have lived and remember Iraq as this empty shell, where millions were killed and massacred for its sake, but it doesn’t really exist at least for its majority poor, who are workers and women.

It has never offered us, and particularly me, anything apart from suffering and loss.

That’s why I have dedicated all my life to support ordinary civilians, especially women throughout Iraq and Kurdistan who have been silenced and their rights are curtailed. So, I only have my voice to speak up, and a pen to write.

I think this is enough for a feminist to expose these patriarchal, masculinist chauvinist, and dictatorial regimes.

References

  1. Fantappie, M. (2011, January 30). Houzan Mahmoud of Owfi Tells Us About Her Role in the Struggle for Equality in Iraq and Kurdistan. Retrieved from https://www.w4.org/en/wowwire/equality-human-rights-social-justice-in-iraq-kurdistan/.
  2. IHEU. (2008, September 31). Volunteer of the month: Houzan Mahmoud. Retrieved from http://iheu.org/volunteer-of-the-month-houzan-mahmoud/.
  3. Jacobsen, S.D (2017, July 4). Interview with Houzan Mahmoud – Co-Founder, The Culture Project. Retrieved from http://conatusnews.com/interview-houzan-mahmoud/.
  4. Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, June 24). An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud — Co-Founder, Culture Project. Retrieved from https://medium.com/humanist-voices/an-interview-with-houzan-mahmoud-co-founder-the-culture-project-7c8861d186a1.
  5. Mahmoud, H. (2006, September 27). A dark anniversary. Retrieved from https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/sep/27/ontheoccasionof24thseptember.
  6. Mahmoud, H. (2006, June 12). A symptom of Iraq’s tragedy. Retrieved from https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/jun/12/theendofzarqawitheusmade.
  7. Mahmoud, H. (2004, March 8). An empty sort of freedom. Retrieved from https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/mar/08/iraq.gender.
  8. Mahmoud, H. (2005, August 14). Houzan Mahmoud: Iraq must reject a constitution that enslaves women. Retrieved from http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/houzan-mahmoud-iraq-must-reject-a-constitution-that-enslaves-women-5347236.html.
  9. Mahmoud, H. (2005, January 28). Houzan Mahmoud: Why I Am Not Taking Part in These Phoney Elections. Retrieved from https://www.vday.org/node/989.html.
  10. Mahmoud, H. (2007, May 2). Human chattel. Retrieved from https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2007/may/02/humanchattel.
  11. Mahmoud, H. (2006, October 7). It’s not a matter of choice. Retrieved from https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/oct/07/wearingtheveilhasneverbee.
  12. Mahmoud, H. (2014, October 10). Kobane Experience Will Live On. Retrieved from http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/houzan-mahmoud/kobane-isis_b_5958150.html.
  13. Mahmoud, H. (2014, October 7). Kurdish Female Fighters and Kobanê Style Revolution. Retrieved from http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/houzan-mahmoud/kurdish-female-fighters-_b_5944382.html.
  14. Mahmoud, H. (2016, November 1). Mosul And The Plight Of Women. Retrieved from http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/houzan-mahmoud/mosul-isis-women_b_12740882.html.
  15. Mahmoud, H. (2006, October 17). The price of freedom. Retrieved from https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/oct/17/655000isnotjustanumber.
  16. Mahmoud, H. (2007, April 13). We say no to a medieval Kurdistan. Retrieved from https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2007/apr/13/thefightforsecularisminku1.
  17. Mahmoud, H. (2007, December 21). What honour in killing?. Retrieved from https://www.newstatesman.com/international-politics/2007/12/women-rights-iraqi-honour.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Co-Founder, Culture Project.

[2] Individual Publication Date: December 8, 2017 at www.in-sightjournal.com; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] MA, Gender Studies, SOAS-University of London.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Houzan Mahmoud.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud, M.A. (Part One) [Online].December 2017; 15(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/mahmoud-one.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, December 8). An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud, M.A. (Part One). Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/mahmoud-one.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud, M.A. (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A, December. 2017. <www.in-sightjournal.com/mahmoud-one>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud, M.A. (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/mahmoud-one.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud, M.A. (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A (December 2017). www.in-sightjournal.com/mahmoud-one.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud, M.A. (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 15.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/mahmoud-one>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud, M.A. (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 15.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/mahmoud-one.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud, M.A. (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 15.A (2017):December. 2017. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/mahmoud-one>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Houzan Mahmoud, M.A. (Part One) [Internet]. (2017, December; 15(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/mahmoud-one.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2017-12-01

An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Seven)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 15.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Eleven)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: December 1, 2017

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,637

ISSN 2369-6885

Pardes Seleh

Abstract

An Interview with Pardes Seleh, B.S. She discusses: transgenderism; Students for Justice in Palestine and the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States; liberal bias on campuses; limitations of free speech; recommended authors; personal heroes/heroines; and final thoughts.

Keywords: Campus Reform, Daily Wire, Orthodox Judaism, Pardes Seleh, The Bruin Standard.

An Interview with Pardes Seleh, B.S.: Staff Writer, Daily Wire; Former Editor-in-Chief, The Bruin Standard; Former California Campus Correspondent, Campus Reform (Part Seven)[1],[2],[3],[4]

1. Jacobsen: One main controversy seems like transgenderism. A lot of political talk, social arguments, and ethical clichés thrown around with respect to it. Those seem peripheral issues to the core issue about medical and scientific experts that state the facts from the most informed views. One organization, the American College of Pediatricians makes unequivocal statements, point-by-point about it.[5] You have relevant training in human biology.

Even so, an older organization than the American College of Pediatricians (founded in 2002), the American Academy of Pediatrics (founded on June 23, 1930), has a section devoted to the health and wellness to Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender, which indicates a difference in perspective with having clear statements about sex and gender (American College of Pediatricians) and another with a section of the organization devoted to the health of LGBT – with the strong emphasis on T for this question.[6] From your training, and with consideration from these organizations, what is the truth about transgenderism – and sex and gender?

Seleh: The American Academy of Pediatrics makes valid points regarding the psychological effects of discrimination on children who have physical and mental gender abnormalities. Being born with a genetic mutation that causes one to produce abnormal testosterone levels, causing one to grow facial hair while one’s ovaries are still working, is stressful already– adding to that cultural bullying and political disputes can only elevate stress levels and worsen the resulting psychosis. However, as a scientific organization, it is not the function of the AAP to relay misleading information for fear of how patients with genetic disorders or the public might deal with it. It can be dangerous and counterproductive.

‘Transgenderism’ as an umbrella term for all patients with gender-affecting genetic disorders makes no sense to me as having any motive other than political. There is a wide spectrum of genetic disorders that may or may not involve specifically mutations of the sex chromosome but can still result in gender appearance abnormalities.

A patient with congenital adrenal hyperplasia, for instance, can have completely female genetics and a fully functioning set of ovaries, but have stress hormone abnormalities resulting in masculine features and an enlarged clitoris that looks like a penis. The female CAH patient, doomed to a lifetime of her disorder, might conclude based on her physical appearance that she is a man, and the T-lobby, eager to expand and strengthen its presence in Washington, will affirm to her via cultural influence that she is probably transgender.

She will forgo the necessary treatment to sustain her female functions and live the rest of her life in ambiguity and life-threatening deficiencies, and her AAP certified physician will not stop her because doing so would mean having to acknowledge her abnormalities and defying the T-lobby narrative, thus being a straight-up ‘transphobe.’ She might eventually commit suicide because her hormones and self-identity are in shambles, and the T-lobby will blame her suicide on the people who had so heartlessly bullied her because she is one of ‘them.’

‘Transgenderism’ was a term created to lazily group together a wide spectrum of people with disorders, many of which could have been treated or sustained, for the purpose of strengthening yet another identity lobby. I am not for mocking people with mental or physical abnormalities; however, I am all for mocking and delegitimizing ‘transgenderism’ for the political scam that it is.

2. Jacobsen: You had a pointed paragraph near the end of Calling Out in Kind: Students for Justice in Palestine (2016). You wrote:

I am 100 percent warranted in showing my distaste for Kureh’s actions. My opinions or beliefs are my prerogative and stating them is backed by the First Amendment, regardless of if they are offensive to someone. Whether or not the claims made against Kureh were true should be taken up by Kureh with the other sources who documented his previous actions, but it is rude and repressive of him to say that I lied and then put forth charges involving my article which I had put time into making sure was evidence-based.[7]

The First Amendment of the United States Constitution states:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.[8]

With the statement by you, and the First Amendment, in mind, what is the importance of freedom of speech, especially in an academic context such as the university campuses and system in general?

Seleh: The Kureh situation was an attempt by the SJP at UCLA to pressure our state-funded university to intimidate me and other students who made controversial remarks about them, by condemning us in the student government.

To me, their utilization of the state to silence opinions they did not like was unconstitutional. Furthermore, they undermined academic debate by attempting to remove one side of an argument. Without freedom of speech, modern academia might as well be dead. Social paradigms are constantly changing—who are we to decide which ones to keep or deny?

3. Jacobsen: Does this further liberal bias on American campuses through intimidation of conservative students, especially into silence and self-censorship?

Seleh: The culture of people being too afraid to say what they think because something that they say may be deemed offensive. It’s not just the SJP that does it. Every group that claims to be an anti-hate group, even Jewish groups do it too.

Everything that we don’t like is considered antisemitism. That is also a problem. It is a way to silence debate because you don’t like the other party and not because you have anything to say about them. People don’t say things because people are afraid.

People shy away from having honest conversations because they are afraid of anything they say being considered racist or Islamophobic. It is toxic.

4. Jacobsen: What groups social or political tend to limit free speech more on a campus than others?

Seleh: Definitely, the more progressive groups. The ones that say they are against hate speech because, to be honest, nobody thinks what they are saying is hate speech. Nobody, even David Duke, doesn’t think what he says is hate speech.

It is really just whatever people you don’t like are saying. So, it is a way to silence debate because you don’t like the other party, not because you have anything to say about them.

5. Jacobsen: Any recommended authors?

Seleh: Niall Ferguson [Laughing]! He was my favourite columnist when he was at Newsweek. It was a while ago. I think he is at the Hoover Institute now. He has written some books. He wrote a book that I really like, which my friend recommended to me.

It is called The West and the Rest. I have lots of good things to say about him. He is married to Ayaan Hirsi Ali. She is the Muslim Reformer lady.

6. Jacobsen: For those that don’t know who Ayaan Hirsi Ali is, she grew up in Somalia. She was given female genital mutilation by female family members. She was going to be in an arranged marriage.

She ended up escaping to Holland, getting into Dutch parliament and then became a reformer and ex-Muslim. She has been doing it ever since, but she has been under protection for probably over a decade now because her life is a consistent threat to those who want to kill her.

Seleh: Yes, of course. Of course, you know every detail about every one of these authors. I think it is really interesting to me. I think it is really interesting that they are married, to be honest. I was a fan before I even became involved in politics at all.

He was really the first columnist I ever read because when I was in high school and I had just started reading my scandalous secular literature. It was Newsweek. I always skipped to his column.

It was like finding out two of your favourite celebrities were getting married. It was just really interesting to me. I find it interesting that he is married to a woman who might not have – I don’t know if it’s inappropriate to say but she might not have – her senses down there because of what was done to her. I don’t know. I wonder what the dynamic is like.

7. Jacobsen:  [Laughing] Any personal heroes/heroines?

Seleh: My personal heroine is Ayaan Hirsi Ali. I have a lot of personal heroines, but she is definitely up there for me. I think because what she did, which was so brave. I mean coming out.

It is already hard to come out and talk about something that is so personal and can be so embarrassing for the self. But coming out and doing that, in the face of a community that is going to punish you for it, they are not going to think you are brave for coming out and talking about what you went through.

They are going to trash her, call her an infidel, and try to kill her. I think she is just the ultimate level of brave.

8. Jacobsen: Any feelings or thoughts in conclusion?

Seleh: That is a really loaded question. I am very honored that you are asking me these questions. I am really enjoying it. I like talking and saying my opinions, so it has been very satisfying for me to be able to ramble on and have somebody be interested in my thoughts.

It is nice to be able to ramble on like this and say all of my opinions.

9. Jacobsen: Thank you very much for your time, Pardes.

Seleh: Thank you!

References

  1. Campus Reform Staff. (2016, March 4). VIDEO: College students think free handouts are the way to achieve American Dream. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=7354.
  2. Cretella, M.A., Van Meter, Q., & McHugh, P. (2016). Gender Ideology Harms Children. Retrieved from http://www.acpeds.org/the-college-speaks/position-statements/gender-ideology-harms-children.
  3. Legal Information Institute. (n.d.).  First Amendment: Amendment I. Retrieved from https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/first_amendment
  4. LinkedIn. (2016). Pardes Seleh. Retrieved from https://www.linkedin.com/in/pardes-seleh-b5713486.
  5. Seleh, P. (2015, September 25). 11 House Republicans Fight Global Warming, Face Criticism From Other Republicans. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/163/11-house-republicans-fight-global-warming-face-pardes-seleh.
  6. Seleh, P. (2015, November 16). 4-year-old leads chant at UCLA Black Lives Matter walkout. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6998.
  7. Seleh, P. (2015, November 18). An Interview with Anti-Abortion Activist Lila Rose. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1193/interview-anti-abortion-activist-lila-rose-pardes-seleh.
  8. Seleh, P. (2015, November 27). Animal research stirs up controversy at UCLA. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=7036.
  9. Seleh, P. (2016, April 5). Anti-Cop Activists at UCLA Declare “Cop Free Zone”. Retrieved from http://thebruinstandarduc.wix.com/bruinstandard#!AntiCop-Activists-at-UCLA-Declare-Cop-Free-Zone/cjds/570368f30cf2e0dbcac4b721.
  10. Seleh, P. (2015, May 13). Berkeley students protest for cows’ rights on Mother’s Day. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6505.
  11. Seleh, P. (2015, December 1). Brown Students Can Finally Discuss Topics Freely… In a Secret Facebook Group. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1504/brown-students-can-finally-discuss-topics-freely-pardes-seleh.
  12. Seleh, P. (2015, November 16). Cal Berkeley to open minority themed house next fall. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6992.
  13. Seleh, P. (2016, March 3). Calling Out in Kind: Students for Justice in Palestine. Retrieved from http://thebruinstandarduc.wix.com/bruinstandard#!Calling-Out-in-Kind-Students-for-Justice-in-Palestine/cjds/5700eed90cf2b279cdbc97e3.
  14. Seleh, P. (2014, November 24). Congressman Henry Waxman, State Senator Ted W. Lieu, and State Senator-Elect Ben Allen Condemn BDS Vote By UCLA Student Government. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/congressman-henry-waxman-state-senator-ted-w-lieu-and-state-senator-elect-ben-allen-condemn-bds.
  15. Seleh, P. (2015, September 25). Cubans Not Pope Fans. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/159/cubans-not-pope-fans-pardes-seleh.
  16. Seleh, P. (2015, December 16). Daily Wire Reached Out to Academics Who Ripped ‘Racist’ Scalia. Here’s What They Said.. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1891/daily-wire-reached-out-academics-who-ripped-racist-pardes-seleh.
  17. Seleh, P. (2015, October 1). Featuring the Bernie 2016 Supporter. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/entertainment/223/featuring-bernie-2016-supporter-pardes-seleh.
  18. Seleh, P. (2015, November 4). Feds to Pull $6 Million from School for Not Allowing Boy in Girls’ Showers. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/877/feds-pull-6-million-school-not-allowing-boy-girls-pardes-seleh.
  19. Seleh, P. (2015, August 6). Harvard project tackles ‘gender bias’ in teens, parents. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6710.
  20. Seleh, P. (2015, November 18). Here’s How the Left Manipulates Research to Prove Your Wife is a Lesbian. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1190/heres-how-left-manipulates-research-prove-your-pardes-seleh.
  21. Seleh, P. (2015, September 25). Hillary Says Obamacare Is A ‘Moral Issue’, Americans Disagree. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/158/hillary-says-obamacare-moral-issue-americans-pardes-seleh.
  22. Seleh, P. (2015, November 4). Hillary Wants to Force Employers to Hire Ex-Cons. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/882/hillary-wants-force-employers-hire-ex-cons-pardes-seleh.
  23. Seleh, P. (2015, March 9). Hillel At UCLA Takes Credit For Publicity Of The Rachel Beyda Incident. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/hillel-ucla-takes-credit-publicity-rachel-beyda-incident.
  24. Seleh, P. (2015, October 23). If Radical Islam and Gender Dysphoria Had a Child, It Would Look Like This. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/647/if-radical-islam-and-gender-dysphoria-had-child-it-pardes-seleh.
  25. Seleh, P. (2015, June 26). Illegal immigrant graduate flies Mexican flag at graduation. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6629.
  26. Seleh, P. (2015, September 10). Is a Berkeley student not diverse enough to fight sexual assault?. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6790.
  27. Seleh, P. (2015, July 6). Kinky sex club rises at USC. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6650.
  28. Seleh, P. (2015, October 28). Los Angeles Times Refuses to Reveal Criteria for Reporting Race in Crime Stories. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/732/los-angeles-times-refuses-reveal-criteria-pardes-seleh.
  29. Seleh, P. (2014, November 19). Major UCLA Donor Pledges to Pull Funds If Administration Backs BDS. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/major-ucla-donor-pledges-pull-funds-if-administration-backs-bds.
  30. Seleh, P. (2015, October 17). Media Misrepresent ‘Gay Gene’ Study Without Contacting Lead Author. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/478/media-misrepresent-gay-gene-study-without-pardes-seleh.
  31. Seleh, P. (2015, November 17). Mizzou Administration Refuses To Identify Swastika Pooper. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1183/mizzou-administration-refuses-identify-swastika-pardes-seleh.
  32. Seleh, P. (2015, May 12). Mizzou dining services apologizes for employee’s ‘insensitive’ Cinco de Mayo costume. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6497.
  33. Seleh, P. (2015, November 12). Mizzou Student VP ‘Tired’ of Free Speech. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1079/mizzou-student-vp-tired-free-speech-pardes-seleh.
  34. Seleh, P. (2015, November 3). Momentum Grows on Tarantino Boycott. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/866/boycotting-tarantino-pardes-seleh.
  35. Seleh, P. (2015, October 21). Museum of Tolerance: State Department Responsible for Unfair Coverage of Israel. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/553/museum-tolerance-state-department-responsible-pardes-seleh.
  36. Seleh, P. (2015, September 22). New York Jews Backlash Against Politicians Supporting Iran Deal. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/125/new-york-jews-backlash-against-politicians-pardes-seleh.
  37. Seleh, P. (2015, October 23). NPR: Aborting Female Babies is Discriminatory. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/634/npr-aborting-female-babies-discriminatory-pardes-seleh.
  38. Seleh, P. (2015, October 1). Obama Utterly Silent as Abbas Incites War Against Israel. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/229/obama-utterly-silent-abbas-incites-war-against-pardes-seleh.
  39. Seleh, P. (2015, October 30). Planned Pregnanthood Discriminates Against Trans Men: No Contraceptives Because Male Pregnancy ‘Not Popular’. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/788/planned-pregnanthood-discriminates-against-trans-pardes-seleh.
  40. Seleh, P. (2015, March 10). Pro-Israel Groups At UCLA Address Anti-Semitism While Openly Supporting SJP at UCLA. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/pro-israel-groups-ucla-address-anti-semitism-while-openly-supporting-sjp-ucla.
  41. Seleh, P.  (2016, February 29). Prof. under investigation for sexual assault to continue teaching at UCLA. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=7339.
  42. Seleh, P. (2015, April 15). Professor Tormented At Connecticut College For Criticizing Hamas. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/professor-tormented-connecticut-college-criticizing-hamas.
  43. Seleh, P. (2015, July 22). Protesters at UC Berkeley get nude for trees. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6689.
  44. Seleh, P. (2015, September 22). Republican Congressman Champion for Planned Parenthood. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/123/republican-congressman-champion-planned-parenthood-pardes-seleh.
  45. Seleh, P. (2015, November 24). Satirical ‘White Student Union’ Receives Death Threats for Protesting Anti-White Racism. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1348/white-student-union-receives-death-threats-pardes-seleh.
  46. Seleh, P. (2015, November 20). ‘Scream Queens’ Beats Up Antonin Scalia Physically. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/entertainment/1263/scream-queens-beats-antonin-scalia-physically-pardes-seleh.
  47. Seleh, P. (2015, November 4). Scream Queens: Snotty Sorority Killer Chick’s Dad Supports Ted Cruz. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/entertainment/884/scream-queens-snotty-sorority-killer-chicks-dad-pardes-seleh.
  48. Seleh, P. (2015, April 18). Screening of American Sniper Hotly Contested at UCLA. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/screening-american-sniper-hotly-contested-ucla.
  49. Seleh, P. (2014, November 20). Second UCLA Donor Pledges Funding Cut If Administration Doesn’t Condemn. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/second-ucla-donor-pledges-funding-cut-if-administration-doesnt-condemn-bds.
  50. Seleh, P. (2015, April 8). SFSU President Leslie Wong Bans School-Funded Travel To Indiana. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/sfsu-president-leslie-wong-bans-school-funded-travel-indiana.   
  51. Seleh, P. (2015, October 9). Students from 82 colleges urge Pope Francis to divest Vatican from fossil fuels. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6877.
  52. Seleh, P. (2015). Study: No, There’s No Evidence Of a ‘Gay Gene’
  53. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/445/study-no-theres-no-evidence-gay-gene-pardes-seleh.
  54. Seleh, P. (2015, December 14). The University of Wisconsin Voted On Whether Free Speech Is A Good Thing. Here Are The Results.. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1859/university-wisconsin-voted-whether-free-speech-pardes-seleh.
  55. Seleh, P. (2014, November 21). Third UCLA Donor Pledges to Pull Funds Over BDS. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/third-ucla-donor-pledges-pull-funds-over-bds.
  56. Seleh, P. (2014, November 11). TruthRevolt Students Protest SJP, Supposedly Pro-Israel Groups Undercut. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/truthrevolt-students-protest-sjp-supposedly-pro-israel-groups-undercut.
  57. Seleh, P. (2015, November 8). UC Berkeley Dems to frame GOP as racist during Tuesday’s debate. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6958.
  58. Seleh, P. (2015, November 23). UC Berkeley housing co-op establishes safe space guidelines. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=7022.
  59. Seleh, P. (2015, October 28). UC Berkeley study links economic inequality to climate change. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6930.
  60. Seleh, P. (2015, November 6). UC Files Amicus Brief Supporting Affirmative Action. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/944/uc-files-amicus-brief-supporting-affirmative-pardes-seleh.
  61. Seleh, P. (2015, November 10). UC Merced Attacker Was A Radical Muslim. The University, Police, and Media Covered It Up. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1024/uc-merced-attacker-was-radical-muslim-university-pardes-seleh.
  62. Seleh, P. (2015, April 21). UCLA Activist Over Screening of American Sniper: “Death to America”. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-activist-over-screening-american-sniper-death-america.
  63. Seleh, P. (2015, April 22). UCLA Activist: “What’s Wrong with Death to America???”. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-activist-whats-wrong-death-america.
  64. Seleh, P. (2014, December 11). UCLA Adds Cuba To Its List Of Study Abroad Programs. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-adds-cuba-its-list-study-abroad-programs.
  65. Seleh, P. (2015, March 18). UCLA Chancellor Compares Anti-SJP Posters To Swastikas. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-chancellor-compares-anti-sjp-posters-swastikas.
  66. Seleh, P. (2014, November 24). UCLA Donor Reverses Decision To Pull Funds After Administration Bucks BDSe to Chancellor’s rejection of divestment resolution. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-donor-reverses-decision-pull-funds-after-administration-bucks-bdse-chancellors-rejection.
  67. Seleh, P. (2015, October 23). UCLA institutes faculty ‘bias awareness training’. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6917.
  68. Seleh, P. (2015, March 17). UCLA Newspaper Defends Pro-Terror Student Group. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-newspaper-defends-pro-terror-student-group.
  69. Seleh, P. (2014, December 11). UCLA Professor Under Fire For Exam Question Relating To Ferguson Shooting. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-professor-under-fire-exam-question-relating-ferguson-shooting.  
  70. Seleh, P. (2015, July 13). UCLA provides internship opportunities to illegal immigrants. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6662.
  71. Seleh, P. (2015, February 5). UCLA Republican Students Attacked for Being White. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-republican-students-attacked-being-white.
  72. Seleh, P. (2015, November 11). UCLA Student Council Unanimously Passes Resolution Against Calling SJP ‘Anti-Semitic’. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-student-council-unanimously-passes-resolution-against-calling-sjp-anti-semitic.
  73. Seleh, P. (2015, October 8). UCLA Students Cry Racism Over White Kids Dressing Up As Kim and Kanye. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/324/ucla-students-cry-racism-over-white-kids-dressing-pardes-seleh.
  74. Seleh, P. (2014, September 23). UCLA Students Stand Up To SJP. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-students-stand-sjp.
  75. Seleh, P. (2015, March 10). UCSA Votes To Divest From Gun Companies. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucsa-votes-divest-gun-companies.  
  76. Seleh, P. (2015, December 7). UCSB Administration ‘Triggered’ by White Student Union, to Offer Counseling Services. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1633/ucsb-administration-triggered-white-student-union-pardes-seleh.
  77. Seleh, P. (2015, December 2). UCSB White Student Union Releases ‘List of Demands’. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1519/ucsb-white-student-union-releases-list-demands-pardes-seleh.
  78. Seleh, P. (2016, February 16). Univ. of California selectively recruits Latino and black students. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=7291.
  79. Seleh, P. (2015, September 11). Univ. of Illinois allows 9/11 memorial. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6799.
  80. Seleh, P. (2015, April 23). University Of Maryland Cancels Screening Of American Sniper. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/university-maryland-cancels-screening-american-sniper.
  81. Seleh, P. (2015, October 8). University of Toronto Dumps Transgender Bathrooms After Peeping Incidents. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/330/university-toronto-dumps-transgender-bathrooms-pardes-seleh.
  82. Seleh, P. (2015, February 22). UPDATE: NY Taxi Driver Yells ‘All Jews Must Die’. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/update-ny-taxi-driver-yells-all-jews-must-die.
  83. Seleh, P. (2015, March 25). USAC President Avinoam Baral Blames Netanyahu for BDS. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/usac-president-avinoam-baral-blames-netanyahu-bds.
  84. Seleh, P. (2015, October 8). Victims of Sharia Mandate Respond to Ben Carson’s Comments. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/327/victims-sharia-mandate-respond-ben-carsons-pardes-seleh.
  85. Seleh, P. (2015, May 23). Was a landmark study on gay marriage faked? Looks like it. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6526.
  86. Seleh, P. (2015, September 22). Was McConnell’s Revote on the Iran Deal a Hoax?. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/124/was-mcconnells-revote-iran-deal-hoax-pardes-seleh.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Staff Writer, Daily Wire; Former Editor-in-Chief, The Bruin Standard; Former California Campus Correspondent, Campus Reform.

[2] Individual Publication Date: December 1, 2017 at www.in-sightjournal.com; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Santa Monica College (2012-2014); B.S. (2014-2016), Human Biology and Society, University of California, Los Angeles; Lifeguard Instructor, American Red Cross.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Pardes Seleh.

[5] Gender Ideology Harms Children (2016) states:

  1. Human sexuality is an objective biological binary trait: “XY” and “XX” are genetic markers of health – not genetic markers of a disorder… 
  2. No one is born with a gender. Everyone is born with a biological sex. Gender (an awareness and sense of oneself as male or female) is a sociological and psychological concept; not an objective biological one… 
  3. A person’s belief that he or she is something they are not is, at best, a sign of confused thinking…
  4. Puberty is not a disease and puberty-blocking hormones can be dangerous… 
  5. According to the DSM-V, as many as 98% of gender confused boys and 88% of gender confused girls eventually accept their biological sex after naturally passing through puberty…
  6. Children who use puberty blockers to impersonate the opposite sex will require cross-sex hormones in late adolescence. Cross-sex hormones (testosterone and estrogen) are associated with dangerous health risks including but not limited to high blood pressure, blood clots, stroke and cancer…
  7. Rates of suicide are twenty times greater among adults who use cross-sex hormones and undergo sex reassignment surgery, even in Sweden which is among the most LGBTQ – affirming countries…
  8. Conditioning children into believing that a lifetime of chemical and surgical impersonation of the opposite sex is normal and healthful is child abuse…

Cretella, M.A., Van Meter, Q., & McHugh, P. (2016, March 21). Gender Ideology Harms Children. Retrieved from http://www.acpeds.org/the-college-speaks/position-statements/gender-ideology-harms-children.

[6] American Academy of Pediatricians. (2016). Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Health and Wellness. Retrieved from https://www.aap.org/en-us/about-the-aap/Committees-Councils-Sections/solgbt/Pages/home.aspx?nfstatus=401&nftoken=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000&nfstatusdescription=ERROR:+No+local+token.

[7] Seleh, P. (2016, March 3). Calling Out in Kind: Students for Justice in Palestine. Retrieved from http://thebruinstandarduc.wix.com/bruinstandard#!Calling-Out-in-Kind-Students-for-Justice-in-Palestine/cjds/5700eed90cf2b279cdbc97e3.

[8] Legal Information Institute. (n.d.).  First Amendment: Amendment I. Retrieved from https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/first_amendment.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Seven) [Online].December 2017; 15(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-seven.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, December 1). An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Seven). Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-seven.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Seven). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A, December. 2017. <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-seven>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Seven).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-seven.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Seven).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A (December 2017). www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-seven.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Seven)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 15.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-seven>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Seven)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 15.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-seven.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Seven).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 15.A (2017):December. 2017. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-seven>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Seven) [Internet]. (2017, December; 15(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-seven.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2017-11-22

An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Six)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 15.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Eleven)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: November 22, 2017

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 4,019

ISSN 2369-6885

Pardes Seleh

Abstract

An Interview with Pardes Seleh, B.S. She discusses: American two-party system; the appeal of Senator Sanders as a political candidate for the presidency; definition of sex and gender; prevalence of sexual assault on campuses and lawful manner to deal with cases; tasks and responsibilities as the Editor-in-Chief of The Bruin Standard; work at The Daily Wire; and barriers to needed conversations.

Keywords: Campus Reform, Daily Wire, Orthodox Judaism, Pardes Seleh, The Bruin Standard.

An Interview with Pardes Seleh, B.S.: Staff Writer, Daily Wire; Former Editor-in-Chief, The Bruin Standard; Former California Campus Correspondent, Campus Reform (Part Six)[1],[2],[3],[4]

1. Jacobsen: Americans work within – for the most part – a two-party system with the Democrats and the Republicans. Even so, the Green Party and the Libertarian Party emerged more in the recent election. Still, they lost by a vast margin. What seems to be the appeal to the super-minority of Americans with the Green Party (Jill Stein) and the Libertarian Party (Gary Johnson) at the time?

Seleh: That they aren’t Republicans or Democrats.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Seleh: Otherwise, neither party is popular on their own. Nobody cares about the Green Party platform. People think the libertarians are crazy. So, it was about not having these, what are called, establishment politicians. These establishment politicians who have been leading the country for so long and have been leading with their only their own agendas.

2. Jacobsen: What seems like the appeal of Senator Sanders as a candidate to young people?

Seleh: I think he is very sincere as a person, genuine, and people were looking for that. People thought the same with Trump, also, which is why I think Donald Trump is similar to Sanders. In that, he attracted younger voters.

I think also that he is very idealistic and that tends to attract younger voters. The more idealistic candidate will do that, especially those who present a new radical and exciting way of thinking. So, in spite of his age, his way of thinking appeals to younger people in that way: his mindset.

3. Jacobsen: What defines sex and gender?

Sex is biological and gender is social. My college professors at UCLA often rationalized that because gender is a social construct, then it can be considered a spectrum and not a dichotomy. I think this is absurd, because the majority of Americans still see gender as a dichotomy, regardless of what the social justice community would like to believe of social norms.

4. Jacobsen: How prevalent is the sexual assault on American campuses? What seems like the lawful manner to deal with these cases and claims – in social media, the news cycle, the university system, or the court system, or some combination of the aforementioned possibilities?

Seleh: I think it really depends on what your definition of sexual assault is. How prevalent is it on college campuses? There is definitely sexual assault happening. It is usually happening to women because women tend to be more submissive in personality, I guess.

But I think we’ve created a culture where anything can be considered sexual assault. Where something that is sexy or cool for a man to do, it can now easily be misread as sexual assault. I think it is definitely being abused by college campuses. It is being abused by a lot of women who are taking advantage of it.

It is the DACA thing I talked about before. You can’t blame women for taking advantage of these laws because the system is allowing them to take advantage in the moment. If you’re a woman and wants to take advantage of a man who broke your heart or whatever, and the system allows you to do it really easily, I am not saying that you should. But, why wouldn’t you do it?

If you really, really hate somebody, I am not saying women aren’t to blame, but the system is being promoted on college campuses. It makes it so that it is really easy for a man to be accused of sexual assault.

It ruins everything. It ruins relationships for everybody. It ruins sex for everybody. Men are always walking on eggshells. They can’t do anything because it will be considered sexual assault. They will gravitate towards the most willing person.

They won’t even try to form relationships or pursue women too much because anything they do that is a little pushy is sexual assault. So, they will gravitate towards the most willing person. It changes a lot of things.

I watch the Bachelor and the Bachelorette. I admit it. It is a guilty pleasure:

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Seleh: There is this girl who is a bubbly drama queen. It is part of her character. The first week of this one season. She and this guy hit it off really quickly. They are immediately getting in the hot tub together. It is all filmed.

They are visibly into each other. Something happened. The next day, the woman, from what I understand, mentioned something about being too drunk the night before. That she regretted sleeping with him.

It is very obvious that he didn’t do anything to her. Any aggression was welcome. You can tell that she wanted it. It was part of the whole sexiness of what was happening. It was like a dance. They were both coming on to each other. She was wanting it.

Then the next day she regretted it. She mentioned it to someone who was there. Then without her knowing, the producer freaked out and said, “Oh! This is sexual assault.” They shut down the season. They basically said as the story came out, that the show was shut down because of sexual assault.

Neither of them was at fault. The woman was not implying that he sexually assaulted her. She was telling her feelings. Her feelings were that she regretted that happening. She was annoyed at him, but then the producers took it all the way to be sexual assault, so let’s shut this down.

Now, women are too afraid to talk about their encounters with men because it is interpreted as sexual assault. It drives everyone further apart. It makes relationships more difficult. People run away from any sign of anything being serious.

It ruins everything. You can tell both characters that it is not what they wanted. Both of their reputations were ruined. That was the sexual assault guy and that was the whiny baby lady. It is natural for a woman to be emotional for her sexual partner.

She will talk about it. She should be able to do that without everything being sexual assault. As with college campuses freaking out about it, they try to put a guy behind bars. There are so many cases of that. Of course, the man becomes a victim.

There was a case like this. Two college students were flirting and having sex. It is always the woman showing it more because you can tell men are timider now. The girl is all over him. They leave the party and go to her place. They have sex.

The next day, he goes home feeling great. Only that night, when he goes home, then he finds out there is this commotion. The police come over and arrest him. He gets arrested for sexual assault. It turns out that the girl talked to her friend.

She decided that she regretted this. She didn’t want to say that she wanted it, “No, I didn’t want it, actually.” So, this guy had his life almost ruined. If not for videos that surfaced that showed clearly that the girl was trying to get the guy to come home with him, he is still in trouble with the school.

The criminal charges against the city were dropped. The judge was like, “There’s no way I’m charging this guy when the videos clearly show the girl was trying to get the guy to come home with her.”

But the school is still not dropping the charges, for whatever reason. They think that because the case was brought up then he should be suspended at the very least. Anyway, those are all of the stories.

The overhype of sexual assault on campuses and the idea of rape culture ruins relationships. It fogs things up when sexual assault is actually happening, when someone is actually doing something sexual against their will.

That goes undetected because we are so distracted by all of this nonsense that it doesn’t matter.

5. Jacobsen: You worked as the Editor-in-Chief for The Bruin Standard, too.[1],[2],[3] What tasks and responsibilities came with this position?

Seleh: I designed and managed our website while assisting my co-editor with recruiting and overseeing our writers, enlisting donors, and promoting our brand on the UCLA campus.

6. Jacobsen: Your most productive period comes from being a staff writer for the Daily Wire with the first pieces on September 22, 2015.[5],[6] In short, you covered a substantial number of prominent topics relevant to America and, especially, to campus culture. You published in in the latter portion of 2015.[7],[8],[9],[10],[11],[12],[13],[14],[15],[16],[17],[18],[19],[20],[21],[22],[23],[24],[25],[26],[27],[28],[29],[30],[31],[32],[33],[34],[35],[36],[37],[38],[39],[40] From a highly informed vantage, what appear to be the most controversial topics on campus and in the US at the moment?

Seleh: Free speech is definitely a hot topic right now, especially with our president-elect and his frequent proposals regarding censorship, which, ironically, he tends to use free social media platforms to convey; as well as the absurd left-wing censorship occurring on college campuses daily, making many Americans who value the First Amendment angry enough to vote for the president-elect. The “free-speech” war intensifies and the only way to break the cycle is actually protect the First Amendment and stop politically motivated censorship.

7. Jacobsen: What seems like the greatest barriers – from both political parties and outside of politics – to the needed conversations on campus and in American politics to come to reasonable conclusions, consensuses, or agreements to ‘move forward’ in the US?

Seleh: I’d say collectivism in both parties drives some of the greatest obstacles to moving forward in this country. When you trap yourself and others into single-strain-ideology boxes of people who must unanimously follow a single doctrine just because you are all part of the same political party or identity, you end up isolating yourself from everybody else in the country and limit growth within your own group. The lack of emphasis placed on individualism and intellectual diversity, probably motivated by fear, drives unwillingness for inter-partisan communication and further agreements.

References

  1. Campus Reform Staff. (2016, March 4). VIDEO: College students think free handouts are the way to achieve American Dream. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=7354.
  2. Cretella, M.A., Van Meter, Q., & McHugh, P. (2016). Gender Ideology Harms Children. Retrieved from http://www.acpeds.org/the-college-speaks/position-statements/gender-ideology-harms-children.
  3. Legal Information Institute. (n.d.).  First Amendment: Amendment I. Retrieved from https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/first_amendment
  4. LinkedIn. (2016). Pardes Seleh. Retrieved from https://www.linkedin.com/in/pardes-seleh-b5713486.
  5. Seleh, P. (2015, September 25). 11 House Republicans Fight Global Warming, Face Criticism From Other Republicans. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/163/11-house-republicans-fight-global-warming-face-pardes-seleh.
  6. Seleh, P. (2015, November 16). 4-year-old leads chant at UCLA Black Lives Matter walkout. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6998.
  7. Seleh, P. (2015, November 18). An Interview with Anti-Abortion Activist Lila Rose. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1193/interview-anti-abortion-activist-lila-rose-pardes-seleh.
  8. Seleh, P. (2015, November 27). Animal research stirs up controversy at UCLA. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=7036.
  9. Seleh, P. (2016, April 5). Anti-Cop Activists at UCLA Declare “Cop Free Zone”. Retrieved from http://thebruinstandarduc.wix.com/bruinstandard#!AntiCop-Activists-at-UCLA-Declare-Cop-Free-Zone/cjds/570368f30cf2e0dbcac4b721.
  10. Seleh, P. (2015, May 13). Berkeley students protest for cows’ rights on Mother’s Day. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6505.
  11. Seleh, P. (2015, December 1). Brown Students Can Finally Discuss Topics Freely… In a Secret Facebook Group. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1504/brown-students-can-finally-discuss-topics-freely-pardes-seleh.
  12. Seleh, P. (2015, November 16). Cal Berkeley to open minority themed house next fall. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6992.
  13. Seleh, P. (2016, March 3). Calling Out in Kind: Students for Justice in Palestine. Retrieved from http://thebruinstandarduc.wix.com/bruinstandard#!Calling-Out-in-Kind-Students-for-Justice-in-Palestine/cjds/5700eed90cf2b279cdbc97e3.
  14. Seleh, P. (2014, November 24). Congressman Henry Waxman, State Senator Ted W. Lieu, and State Senator-Elect Ben Allen Condemn BDS Vote By UCLA Student Government. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/congressman-henry-waxman-state-senator-ted-w-lieu-and-state-senator-elect-ben-allen-condemn-bds.
  15. Seleh, P. (2015, September 25). Cubans Not Pope Fans. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/159/cubans-not-pope-fans-pardes-seleh.
  16. Seleh, P. (2015, December 16). Daily Wire Reached Out to Academics Who Ripped ‘Racist’ Scalia. Here’s What They Said.. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1891/daily-wire-reached-out-academics-who-ripped-racist-pardes-seleh.
  17. Seleh, P. (2015, October 1). Featuring the Bernie 2016 Supporter. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/entertainment/223/featuring-bernie-2016-supporter-pardes-seleh.
  18. Seleh, P. (2015, November 4). Feds to Pull $6 Million from School for Not Allowing Boy in Girls’ Showers. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/877/feds-pull-6-million-school-not-allowing-boy-girls-pardes-seleh.
  19. Seleh, P. (2015, August 6). Harvard project tackles ‘gender bias’ in teens, parents. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6710.
  20. Seleh, P. (2015, November 18). Here’s How the Left Manipulates Research to Prove Your Wife is a Lesbian. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1190/heres-how-left-manipulates-research-prove-your-pardes-seleh.
  21. Seleh, P. (2015, September 25). Hillary Says Obamacare Is A ‘Moral Issue’, Americans Disagree. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/158/hillary-says-obamacare-moral-issue-americans-pardes-seleh.
  22. Seleh, P. (2015, November 4). Hillary Wants to Force Employers to Hire Ex-Cons. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/882/hillary-wants-force-employers-hire-ex-cons-pardes-seleh.
  23. Seleh, P. (2015, March 9). Hillel At UCLA Takes Credit For Publicity Of The Rachel Beyda Incident. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/hillel-ucla-takes-credit-publicity-rachel-beyda-incident.
  24. Seleh, P. (2015, October 23). If Radical Islam and Gender Dysphoria Had a Child, It Would Look Like This. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/647/if-radical-islam-and-gender-dysphoria-had-child-it-pardes-seleh.
  25. Seleh, P. (2015, June 26). Illegal immigrant graduate flies Mexican flag at graduation. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6629.
  26. Seleh, P. (2015, September 10). Is a Berkeley student not diverse enough to fight sexual assault?. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6790.
  27. Seleh, P. (2015, July 6). Kinky sex club rises at USC. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6650.
  28. Seleh, P. (2015, October 28). Los Angeles Times Refuses to Reveal Criteria for Reporting Race in Crime Stories. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/732/los-angeles-times-refuses-reveal-criteria-pardes-seleh.
  29. Seleh, P. (2014, November 19). Major UCLA Donor Pledges to Pull Funds If Administration Backs BDS. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/major-ucla-donor-pledges-pull-funds-if-administration-backs-bds.
  30. Seleh, P. (2015, October 17). Media Misrepresent ‘Gay Gene’ Study Without Contacting Lead Author. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/478/media-misrepresent-gay-gene-study-without-pardes-seleh.
  31. Seleh, P. (2015, November 17). Mizzou Administration Refuses To Identify Swastika Pooper. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1183/mizzou-administration-refuses-identify-swastika-pardes-seleh.
  32. Seleh, P. (2015, May 12). Mizzou dining services apologizes for employee’s ‘insensitive’ Cinco de Mayo costume. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6497.
  33. Seleh, P. (2015, November 12). Mizzou Student VP ‘Tired’ of Free Speech. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1079/mizzou-student-vp-tired-free-speech-pardes-seleh.
  34. Seleh, P. (2015, November 3). Momentum Grows on Tarantino Boycott. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/866/boycotting-tarantino-pardes-seleh.
  35. Seleh, P. (2015, October 21). Museum of Tolerance: State Department Responsible for Unfair Coverage of Israel. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/553/museum-tolerance-state-department-responsible-pardes-seleh.
  36. Seleh, P. (2015, September 22). New York Jews Backlash Against Politicians Supporting Iran Deal. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/125/new-york-jews-backlash-against-politicians-pardes-seleh.
  37. Seleh, P. (2015, October 23). NPR: Aborting Female Babies is Discriminatory. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/634/npr-aborting-female-babies-discriminatory-pardes-seleh.
  38. Seleh, P. (2015, October 1). Obama Utterly Silent as Abbas Incites War Against Israel. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/229/obama-utterly-silent-abbas-incites-war-against-pardes-seleh.
  39. Seleh, P. (2015, October 30). Planned Pregnanthood Discriminates Against Trans Men: No Contraceptives Because Male Pregnancy ‘Not Popular’. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/788/planned-pregnanthood-discriminates-against-trans-pardes-seleh.
  40. Seleh, P. (2015, March 10). Pro-Israel Groups At UCLA Address Anti-Semitism While Openly Supporting SJP at UCLA. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/pro-israel-groups-ucla-address-anti-semitism-while-openly-supporting-sjp-ucla.
  41. Seleh, P.  (2016, February 29). Prof. under investigation for sexual assault to continue teaching at UCLA. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=7339.
  42. Seleh, P. (2015, April 15). Professor Tormented At Connecticut College For Criticizing Hamas. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/professor-tormented-connecticut-college-criticizing-hamas.
  43. Seleh, P. (2015, July 22). Protesters at UC Berkeley get nude for trees. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6689.
  44. Seleh, P. (2015, September 22). Republican Congressman Champion for Planned Parenthood. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/123/republican-congressman-champion-planned-parenthood-pardes-seleh.
  45. Seleh, P. (2015, November 24). Satirical ‘White Student Union’ Receives Death Threats for Protesting Anti-White Racism. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1348/white-student-union-receives-death-threats-pardes-seleh.
  46. Seleh, P. (2015, November 20). ‘Scream Queens’ Beats Up Antonin Scalia Physically. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/entertainment/1263/scream-queens-beats-antonin-scalia-physically-pardes-seleh.
  47. Seleh, P. (2015, November 4). Scream Queens: Snotty Sorority Killer Chick’s Dad Supports Ted Cruz. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/entertainment/884/scream-queens-snotty-sorority-killer-chicks-dad-pardes-seleh.
  48. Seleh, P. (2015, April 18). Screening of American Sniper Hotly Contested at UCLA. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/screening-american-sniper-hotly-contested-ucla.
  49. Seleh, P. (2014, November 20). Second UCLA Donor Pledges Funding Cut If Administration Doesn’t Condemn. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/second-ucla-donor-pledges-funding-cut-if-administration-doesnt-condemn-bds.
  50. Seleh, P. (2015, April 8). SFSU President Leslie Wong Bans School-Funded Travel To Indiana. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/sfsu-president-leslie-wong-bans-school-funded-travel-indiana.   
  51. Seleh, P. (2015, October 9). Students from 82 colleges urge Pope Francis to divest Vatican from fossil fuels. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6877.
  52. Seleh, P. (2015). Study: No, There’s No Evidence Of a ‘Gay Gene’
  53. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/445/study-no-theres-no-evidence-gay-gene-pardes-seleh.
  54. Seleh, P. (2015, December 14). The University of Wisconsin Voted On Whether Free Speech Is A Good Thing. Here Are The Results.. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1859/university-wisconsin-voted-whether-free-speech-pardes-seleh.
  55. Seleh, P. (2014, November 21). Third UCLA Donor Pledges to Pull Funds Over BDS. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/third-ucla-donor-pledges-pull-funds-over-bds.
  56. Seleh, P. (2014, November 11). TruthRevolt Students Protest SJP, Supposedly Pro-Israel Groups Undercut. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/truthrevolt-students-protest-sjp-supposedly-pro-israel-groups-undercut.
  57. Seleh, P. (2015, November 8). UC Berkeley Dems to frame GOP as racist during Tuesday’s debate. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6958.
  58. Seleh, P. (2015, November 23). UC Berkeley housing co-op establishes safe space guidelines. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=7022.
  59. Seleh, P. (2015, October 28). UC Berkeley study links economic inequality to climate change. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6930.
  60. Seleh, P. (2015, November 6). UC Files Amicus Brief Supporting Affirmative Action. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/944/uc-files-amicus-brief-supporting-affirmative-pardes-seleh.
  61. Seleh, P. (2015, November 10). UC Merced Attacker Was A Radical Muslim. The University, Police, and Media Covered It Up. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1024/uc-merced-attacker-was-radical-muslim-university-pardes-seleh.
  62. Seleh, P. (2015, April 21). UCLA Activist Over Screening of American Sniper: “Death to America”. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-activist-over-screening-american-sniper-death-america.
  63. Seleh, P. (2015, April 22). UCLA Activist: “What’s Wrong with Death to America???”. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-activist-whats-wrong-death-america.
  64. Seleh, P. (2014, December 11). UCLA Adds Cuba To Its List Of Study Abroad Programs. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-adds-cuba-its-list-study-abroad-programs.
  65. Seleh, P. (2015, March 18). UCLA Chancellor Compares Anti-SJP Posters To Swastikas. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-chancellor-compares-anti-sjp-posters-swastikas.
  66. Seleh, P. (2014, November 24). UCLA Donor Reverses Decision To Pull Funds After Administration Bucks BDSe to Chancellor’s rejection of divestment resolution. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-donor-reverses-decision-pull-funds-after-administration-bucks-bdse-chancellors-rejection.
  67. Seleh, P. (2015, October 23). UCLA institutes faculty ‘bias awareness training’. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6917.
  68. Seleh, P. (2015, March 17). UCLA Newspaper Defends Pro-Terror Student Group. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-newspaper-defends-pro-terror-student-group.
  69. Seleh, P. (2014, December 11). UCLA Professor Under Fire For Exam Question Relating To Ferguson Shooting. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-professor-under-fire-exam-question-relating-ferguson-shooting.  
  70. Seleh, P. (2015, July 13). UCLA provides internship opportunities to illegal immigrants. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6662.
  71. Seleh, P. (2015, February 5). UCLA Republican Students Attacked for Being White. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-republican-students-attacked-being-white.
  72. Seleh, P. (2015, November 11). UCLA Student Council Unanimously Passes Resolution Against Calling SJP ‘Anti-Semitic’. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-student-council-unanimously-passes-resolution-against-calling-sjp-anti-semitic.
  73. Seleh, P. (2015, October 8). UCLA Students Cry Racism Over White Kids Dressing Up As Kim and Kanye. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/324/ucla-students-cry-racism-over-white-kids-dressing-pardes-seleh.
  74. Seleh, P. (2014, September 23). UCLA Students Stand Up To SJP. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-students-stand-sjp.
  75. Seleh, P. (2015, March 10). UCSA Votes To Divest From Gun Companies. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucsa-votes-divest-gun-companies.  
  76. Seleh, P. (2015, December 7). UCSB Administration ‘Triggered’ by White Student Union, to Offer Counseling Services. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1633/ucsb-administration-triggered-white-student-union-pardes-seleh.
  77. Seleh, P. (2015, December 2). UCSB White Student Union Releases ‘List of Demands’. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1519/ucsb-white-student-union-releases-list-demands-pardes-seleh.
  78. Seleh, P. (2016, February 16). Univ. of California selectively recruits Latino and black students. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=7291.
  79. Seleh, P. (2015, September 11). Univ. of Illinois allows 9/11 memorial. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6799.
  80. Seleh, P. (2015, April 23). University Of Maryland Cancels Screening Of American Sniper. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/university-maryland-cancels-screening-american-sniper.
  81. Seleh, P. (2015, October 8). University of Toronto Dumps Transgender Bathrooms After Peeping Incidents. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/330/university-toronto-dumps-transgender-bathrooms-pardes-seleh.
  82. Seleh, P. (2015, February 22). UPDATE: NY Taxi Driver Yells ‘All Jews Must Die’. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/update-ny-taxi-driver-yells-all-jews-must-die.
  83. Seleh, P. (2015, March 25). USAC President Avinoam Baral Blames Netanyahu for BDS. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/usac-president-avinoam-baral-blames-netanyahu-bds.
  84. Seleh, P. (2015, October 8). Victims of Sharia Mandate Respond to Ben Carson’s Comments. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/327/victims-sharia-mandate-respond-ben-carsons-pardes-seleh.
  85. Seleh, P. (2015, May 23). Was a landmark study on gay marriage faked? Looks like it. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6526.
  86. Seleh, P. (2015, September 22). Was McConnell’s Revote on the Iran Deal a Hoax?. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/124/was-mcconnells-revote-iran-deal-hoax-pardes-seleh.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Staff Writer, Daily Wire; Former Editor-in-Chief, The Bruin Standard; Former California Campus Correspondent, Campus Reform.

[2] Individual Publication Date: November 22, 2017 at www.in-sightjournal.com; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Santa Monica College (2012-2014); B.S. (2014-2016), Human Biology and Society, University of California, Los Angeles; Lifeguard Instructor, American Red Cross.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Pardes Seleh.

[5] Ibid.

[6] In general, the topics included Planned Parenthood, the Iran Deal, Cuba, global warming, President Mahmoud Abbas, racism, Sharia, transgenderism, the ‘gay gene,’ abortion,  Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders, Mizzou, the Left, Syrian refugees, costume controversy, Israel and attacks on Israeli military personnel, racial privilege, Erdogan, the Zika virus, human organs in animals, species nonconforming, microaggressions, assisted suicide, safe spaces, transracialism, and transgenderism (and bathrooms).

[7] Seleh, P. (2015, October 15). Study: No, There’s No Evidence Of a ‘Gay Gene’

Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/445/study-no-theres-no-evidence-gay-gene-pardes-seleh.

[8] Seleh, P. (2015, September 22). New York Jews Backlash Against Politicians Supporting Iran Deal. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/125/new-york-jews-backlash-against-politicians-pardes-seleh.

[9] Seleh, P. (2015, November 18). An Interview with Anti-Abortion Activist Lila Rose. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1193/interview-anti-abortion-activist-lila-rose-pardes-seleh.

[10] Seleh, P. (2015, November 10). UC Merced Attacker Was A Radical Muslim. The University, Police, and Media Covered It Up.. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1024/uc-merced-attacker-was-radical-muslim-university-pardes-seleh.

[11] Seleh, P. (2015, November 12). Mizzou Student VP ‘Tired’ of Free Speech. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1079/mizzou-student-vp-tired-free-speech-pardes-seleh.

[12] Seleh, P. (2015, December 2). UCSB White Student Union Releases ‘List of Demands’. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1519/ucsb-white-student-union-releases-list-demands-pardes-seleh.

[13] Seleh, P. (2015, November 18). Here’s How the Left Manipulates Research to Prove Your Wife is a Lesbian. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1190/heres-how-left-manipulates-research-prove-your-pardes-seleh.

[14] Seleh, P. (2015, October 17). Media Misrepresent ‘Gay Gene’ Study Without Contacting Lead Author. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/478/media-misrepresent-gay-gene-study-without-pardes-seleh.

[15] Seleh, P. (2015, November 24). Satirical ‘White Student Union’ Receives Death Threats for Protesting Anti-White Racism. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1348/white-student-union-receives-death-threats-pardes-seleh.

[16] Seleh, P. (2015, October 23). NPR: Aborting Female Babies is Discriminatory. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/634/npr-aborting-female-babies-discriminatory-pardes-seleh.

[17] Seleh, P. (2015, October 23). If Radical Islam and Gender Dysphoria Had a Child, It Would Look Like This. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/647/if-radical-islam-and-gender-dysphoria-had-child-it-pardes-seleh.

[18] Seleh, P. (2015, September 22). Was McConnell’s Revote on the Iran Deal a Hoax?. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/124/was-mcconnells-revote-iran-deal-hoax-pardes-seleh.

[19] Seleh, P. (2015, October 28). Los Angeles Times Refuses to Reveal Criteria for Reporting Race in Crime Stories. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/732/los-angeles-times-refuses-reveal-criteria-pardes-seleh.

[20] Seleh, P. (2015, September 25). Hillary Says Obamacare Is A ‘Moral Issue’, Americans Disagree. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/158/hillary-says-obamacare-moral-issue-americans-pardes-seleh.

[21] Seleh, P. (2015, December 1). Brown Students Can Finally Discuss Topics Freely… In a Secret Facebook Group. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1504/brown-students-can-finally-discuss-topics-freely-pardes-seleh.

[22] Seleh, P. (2015, September 25). Cubans Not Pope Fans. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/159/cubans-not-pope-fans-pardes-seleh.

[23] Seleh, P. (2015, September 25). 11 House Republicans Fight Global Warming, Face Criticism From Other Republicans. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/163/11-house-republicans-fight-global-warming-face-pardes-seleh.

[24] Seleh, P. (2015, October 30). Planned Pregnanthood Discriminates Against Trans Men: No Contraceptives Because Male Pregnancy ‘Not Popular’. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/788/planned-pregnanthood-discriminates-against-trans-pardes-seleh.

[25] Seleh, P. (2015, November 3). Momentum Grows on Tarantino Boycott. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/866/boycotting-tarantino-pardes-seleh.

[26] Seleh, P. (2015, December 7). UCSB Administration ‘Triggered’ by White Student Union, to Offer Counseling Services. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1633/ucsb-administration-triggered-white-student-union-pardes-seleh.

[27] Seleh, P. (2015, November 4). Feds to Pull $6 Million from School for Not Allowing Boy in Girls’ Showers. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/877/feds-pull-6-million-school-not-allowing-boy-girls-pardes-seleh.

[28] Seleh, P. (2015, November 4). Hillary Wants to Force Employers to Hire Ex-Cons. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/882/hillary-wants-force-employers-hire-ex-cons-pardes-seleh.

[29] Seleh, P. (2015, November 4). Scream Queens: Snotty Sorority Killer Chick’s Dad Supports Ted Cruz. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/entertainment/884/scream-queens-snotty-sorority-killer-chicks-dad-pardes-seleh.

[30] Seleh, P. (2015, October 1). Featuring the Bernie 2016 Supporter. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/entertainment/223/featuring-bernie-2016-supporter-pardes-seleh.

[31] Seleh, P. (2015, October 1). Obama Utterly Silent as Abbas Incites War Against Israel. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/229/obama-utterly-silent-abbas-incites-war-against-pardes-seleh.

[32] Seleh, P. (2015, November 6). UC Files Amicus Brief Supporting Affirmative Action. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/944/uc-files-amicus-brief-supporting-affirmative-pardes-seleh.

[33] Seleh, P. (2015, October 8). UCLA Students Cry Racism Over White Kids Dressing Up As Kim and Kanye. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/324/ucla-students-cry-racism-over-white-kids-dressing-pardes-seleh.

[34] Seleh, P. (2015, October 8). Victims of Sharia Mandate Respond to Ben Carson’s Comments. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/327/victims-sharia-mandate-respond-ben-carsons-pardes-seleh.

[35] Seleh, P. (2015, October 8). University of Toronto Dumps Transgender Bathrooms After Peeping Incidents. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/330/university-toronto-dumps-transgender-bathrooms-pardes-seleh.

[36] Seleh, P. (2015, December 14). The University of Wisconsin Voted On Whether Free Speech Is A Good Thing. Here Are The Results.. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1859/university-wisconsin-voted-whether-free-speech-pardes-seleh.

[37] Seleh, P. (2015, December 16). Daily Wire Reached Out to Academics Who Ripped ‘Racist’ Scalia. Here’s What They Said.. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1891/daily-wire-reached-out-academics-who-ripped-racist-pardes-seleh.

[38] Seleh, P. (2015, November 17). Mizzou Administration Refuses To Identify Swastika Pooper. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1183/mizzou-administration-refuses-identify-swastika-pardes-seleh.

[39] Seleh, P. (2015, November 20). ‘Scream Queens’ Beats Up Antonin Scalia Physically. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/entertainment/1263/scream-queens-beats-antonin-scalia-physically-pardes-seleh.

[40] Seleh, P. (2015, October 21). Museum of Tolerance: State Department Responsible for Unfair Coverage of Israel. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/553/museum-tolerance-state-department-responsible-pardes-seleh.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Six) [Online].November 2017; 15(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-six.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, November 22). An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Six). Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-six.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Six). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A, November. 2017. <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-six>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Six).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-six.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Six).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A (November 2017). www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-six.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Six)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 15.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-six>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Six)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 15.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-six.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Six).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 15.A (2017):November. 2017. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-six>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Six) [Internet]. (2017, November; 15(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-six

License and Copyright

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Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2017-11-15

An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Five)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 15.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Eleven)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: November 15, 2017

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 4,863

ISSN 2369-6885

Pardes Seleh

Abstract

An Interview with Pardes Seleh, B.S. She discusses: Liberal indoctrination on campuses; Academia; academic discourse at present; Campus Reform; trends in the US; the American Dream; global warming; diversity policies; economic inequality; illegal immigrants; marriage; secular and religious interpretations; civil partnerships and marriage; bigger draws for men and women regarding marriage; Black Lives Matter; and the partial dissolution of the Democratic and Republican parties.

Keywords: Campus Reform, Daily Wire, Independent Journal Review, Pardes Seleh, The Bruin Standard.

An Interview with Pardes Seleh, B.S.: Former Writer, Independent Journal Review; Former Staff Writer, Daily Wire; Former Editor-in-Chief, The Bruin Standard; Former California Campus Correspondent, Campus Reform (Part Five)[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been edited for clarity and readability.*​

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: You spoke on Liberal indoctrination on campuses. Can you give some examples of this, bigger and then nuanced ones?

Seleh: Bigger ones: for me, going to school, it is no big deal to me. For instructors, they have a more difficult time because they have to speak what they know every day. It is much more likely that their political biases will come through when they are lecturing.

I have actually spoken to multiple college professors at my school. They didn’t want this to be talked about in the media, so I didn’t report it. I didn’t mention their names in the media.

But there are a group of professors who feel threatened. They feel like they were walking on eggshells in their lectures. They were careful about what they were teaching, to make sure they didn’t show their political views in class and made sure they didn’t express their views with other college professors.

This was not happening with Leftist professors. It was completely acceptable for them to speak what they were thinking. They would criticize conservatives, heavily. Sometimes, they would talk about conservatives, conservative politicians, religion, and the administration knew this was going on.

It was reported. But they didn’t care. They only reacted to professors who some way or another, not necessarily in class, were found to have complete conservative views. I knew one guy who wasn’t an even professor. He was doing research in epidemiology at UCLA.

He was kicked out for researching certain topics. One example, he did research on Mormons and cervical cancer and cancer in general. He found Mormons who live in Utah and found they had fewer cancer rates than the general population.

He did that kind of research. They concluded, the university, that his research was promoting – he’s not Mormon – a religious agenda. They kicked him out. It wasn’t just that. They concluded that he had a religious agenda.

He is actually back now. He has been at the school for 6 years without pay. That is one example. This person wasn’t even teaching.

2. Jacobsen: Does this speak to other cases or alongside other cases of a growing problem in Academia or the university system broadly speaking?

Seleh: It definitely suppresses Academia. If there are viewpoints that you’re afraid to learn about, then you’ll never know the full picture. If there is a limit to how much you want to know or hear about other lifestyles, then you become infinitely limited. If you aren’t unlimited in your openness to information, then you become infinitely limited in your knowledge.

It limits the extent of knowledge that one can gain from Academia in general. It is a waste of money because you spend a lot of money on an academic education to learn as much as you can.

You are instead having your school with its own worldview. It is afraid to let you know too much.

3. Jacobsen: Where does this leave academic discourse?

Seleh: It leaves it so that the main source of knowledge is the internet. It is the least limited place in order to get your information, especially since the internet is the only outlet for people through social media and for alternative search engines.

I know Google has restricted certain websites. There is always, with growing technology, a comeback for people who feel that they’ve been limited, so they say what they think and feel on the internet.

So, the internet will be the place for them to express themselves when the other platforms are more limiting.

4. Jacobsen: Your articles for Campus Reform covered a broad range of topics.[6],[7],[8],[9],[10],[11],[12],[13],[14],[15],[16],[17],[18],[19],[20],[21],[22],[23],[24],[25],[26],[27],[28] What seem like the general reasons for these trends happening on campuses in California?

Seleh: California is a majority Democrat state so it makes it more likely for incidences of liberal bias to occur there. A lot of the issues discussed on college campuses such as the UC schools were surrounding immigration and race relations.

There are a lot of Republicans in California and public schools in California, but it seems they were suppressed from being vocal about their views. I think that the less you know about something, then the more likely you are to be afraid of it.

The more you are afraid of it, then the more likely you are to want to suppress it. What I think happened with conservatives in California, is that they feel closed off and suppressed, in California I think the conservative population is so silent, in the schools at least, and so shut out, they fear what their views might mean, if they were more vocal, for them.

They do more of these things. The more they are suppressed. It is fear and reactionary politics. They fear to have their views challenged by the Right. They know the conservatives aren’t open about their views.

Conservatives know their views aren’t as comfortable around campus, aren’t as mainstream, so scary. The more foreign those views are then the scarier they seem, so the more suppression has to be done.

The more of these kinds of Leftist suppression tactics occur. The more interventions to try and push one political agenda forward.

5. Jacobsen: Do these trends extrapolate to the rest of the US?

Seleh: Yes, definitely, it is like this in California. It is far Left. Their school system. Other places like Seattle, Washington, DC, New York. A lot of places are like that, definitely more peer pressure.

I think California is not alone. It is like that all over the country. It could be that in other parts of the country there are other smaller states and different viewpoints, so the politics may not be as reactionary.

6. Jacobsen: Some contentious threads between the Left and the Right of America based on the Campus reform articles: American Dream, climate change, diversity, economic inequality, immigration, marriage, racism, sex and gender, and sexual assault. Let’s explore those as queries to you, what hopes and principles (and, of course, dreams) comprise the American Dream?

Seleh: I think it used to be an American Dream of whatever you want to accomplish. Upward mobility is attainable and as we move towards a more socialist society, or a less free market friendly culture, the American Dream becomes less about attaining what you want to and more about everybody being equal.

Everybody has the same amount and doing the same things. In a video that I did, I interviewed students on what the American Dream was. Most said that the American Dream was the idea of the equal outcome, equality of outcome.

I think that reflects it depending on your political view. It used to be equality of opportunity. Anyone can attain anything they want, but now as we move towards a more modern global society; it is about everybody having the same amount.

7. Jacobsen: Does climate change/global warming exist to you? If so, how much as a result of human activity?

Seleh: I think the climate is changing constantly, but that is not necessarily something we could or should try to interfere with. Just as organisms adapt to their environments, the environment adapts to us. Certain atmospheric qualities might be changing but so are numerous other Earth systems, on a daily basis. I think trying to control the inevitable on a state level, instead of encouraging further environmental research on how we can ourselves adapt to our ever-changing environment, can lead to a monstrous waste of tax resources.

8. Jacobsen: Do diversity policies on American campuses deliver on their purported ends? What policies would reduce divisions?

Seleh: No. They are a recipe for more race-based politics and further divides.

9. Jacobsen: Does economic inequality exist as an injustice by its nature, in most of its forms, in some of its forms, or not at all?

Seleh: No, I don’t believe economic inequality exists as an injustice in a free society. Cultural paradigms, marketing trends, and demographics are constantly changing so as long as there is a spectrum of “winners” and “losers” there is always the opportunity of moving up and likewise, the risk of falling down. That is, of course, most possible where external intervention is limited.

10. Jacobsen: What seems like the best manner to deal with illegal immigrants, and to set the laws to define legal and illegal immigration status – in addition to appropriate management of the border and enforcement of the law in the US?

Seleh: The first step would be to enforce existing laws, which would mean having to do the “dirty work” racked up from previous administrations. It is making sure the borders are being enforced. No matter the strictness of the laws, it is making sure everyone is following the law.

It is making sure nobody is getting out of it (the law). I don’t know what should be done about DACA. I have a friend who is DACA approved. He has lived here most of his life. He is a like a normal citizen here. I know more than one actually.

Those I know are not freeloaders. They are more responsible than most American citizens I know, very hard workers. They work off the books or for people not asking for their papers. I think that the injustice done to them was a lack of law enforcement.

They came across the borders with their parents or groups of people their parents hired. Because it was so easy for them to cross the borders, the ones I’m talking about are Hispanic.

If you had an opportunity to get into the US, and others can, then it is rigged. If others can, and you aren’t, and if nobody is punishing you for crossing the border, then they are telling you that you can do it.

They are allowing you to cross the border. They are punishing you afterward for not enforcing it in the first place – which is their fault – is an injustice. I don’t think DACA approved kids should have their status taken away from them.

I don’t that’s fair. I think it was our fault for not enforcing the law in the first place. These kids grew up here and have their lives here. It might be good for  morale, “We enforce laws.” But there is no point in deporting DACA approved children because the whole point is to show that we’re taking our laws seriously now.

If so, then first and foremost, we should have been enforcing them. Trump promised a border wall. So, the first thing he should do is build the wall, not taking away DACA status from DACA approved people.

It was not a clear enforcement of what we expect from people who immigrate here.

11. Jacobsen: What seems like the best definition of marriage to you?

Seleh: I see marriage as a binding social agreement between a man and a woman to ensure monogamy and a vessel for stable procreation.

12. Jacobsen: This definition implies secular and religious compatibility. What differentiates appropriate secular and religious here? What differentiates binding social agreements between a man and a woman for monogamy and stable procreation?

Seleh: I don’t see marriage as necessarily a religious institution. Most of the benefits of marriage aren’t necessarily tied to being religious. It is about stability. I don’t think the benefits of marriage are tied to religion or even necessarily community, or ideology.

I think it is just an agreement, like what I said before. It is an agreement people make in order to lead a stable family that can grow in a healthy way.

13. Jacobsen: What makes for a reasonable separation between civil partnerships and marriage (as defined in the previous question)?

Seleh: Civil partnership versus marriage, civil partnership is for people who want the same things out of a marriage, but generally with less commitment. If you want to have the benefits of marriage, which are never being alone and having a stable home, and always having a home with someone and being able to rely on a partner to help build a family, and with less commitment and not sure of what you want for your future, then you can call it a civil partnership.

The stigma around marriage is that it is forever. Not the stigma, but the idea of marriage is something that is forever binding, I guess someone who doesn’t have a commitment that you can get out of as easily.

Civil partnership is less long-term.

14. Jacobsen: What do you think are some of the bigger draws for women with marriage? What do you think are some of the bigger draws for men with marriage?

Seleh: For women, it would probably be a sense of emotional stability and for somebody to rely on. Both emotionally and physically, it is much harder for a woman to be sexually active if she is not in a marriage for a lot of reasons. It is less rewarding and less safe.

For a man, I think the same thing. I am basically repeating the same thing for men and women [Laughing]. It would be stability. A man would be able to rely on his woman. I guess men might care less about depending on a person as much as women.

I can say what women want because I am a woman. But what men want, when I hear men talk about marriage, for them, it is a source of pride when they talk about wanting to get married and have a Mrs. and having kids, and a home that is theirs.

They talk about it as if there is a sense of ownership: “This is mine.” To them, it is a thing about pride. It builds into other parts of their confidence. Their sense of self. That’s the idea I get whenever I hear men talk about marriage.

They talk about it as a sense of self-worth. Men who are married and then the idea of having your pride.

15. Jacobsen: Do movements like Black Lives Matter seem justified in the 2010s because the US is as, or more, racist than the pre-1965 Civil Rights era – or simply justified at all or not at all?

Seleh: Racism probably still exists in America – but I don’t think it can be compared to the pre-Civil Rights era. I’d attribute a lot of today’s prejudices to politically charged racial separatist movements like Black Lives Matter. They’re like a female prostitute complaining about female objectification. Those people are simply part of the problem, not the solution.

16. Jacobsen: With President Donald J. Trump, some predict the dissolution of aspects of both the Democratic and Republican parties. Does this seem accurate or like hyperbole to you?

Seleh: Yes, it seems pretty accurate to me. Identity politics is definitely one of the reasons. There is in Obama what people see as ineffective because we were too afraid. PC, politically correct, culture was having politicians and others being too eager to please.

Trump is someone who is a developer. He has a go-getter mindset. 

References

  1. Campus Reform Staff. (2016, March 4). VIDEO: College students think free handouts are the way to achieve American Dream. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=7354.
  2. Cretella, M.A., Van Meter, Q., & McHugh, P. (2016). Gender Ideology Harms Children. Retrieved from http://www.acpeds.org/the-college-speaks/position-statements/gender-ideology-harms-children.
  3. Legal Information Institute. (n.d.).  First Amendment: Amendment I. Retrieved from https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/first_amendment
  4. LinkedIn. (2016). Pardes Seleh. Retrieved from https://www.linkedin.com/in/pardes-seleh-b5713486.
  5. Seleh, P. (2015, September 25). 11 House Republicans Fight Global Warming, Face Criticism From Other Republicans. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/163/11-house-republicans-fight-global-warming-face-pardes-seleh.
  6. Seleh, P. (2015, November 16). 4-year-old leads chant at UCLA Black Lives Matter walkout. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6998.
  7. Seleh, P. (2015, November 18). An Interview with Anti-Abortion Activist Lila Rose. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1193/interview-anti-abortion-activist-lila-rose-pardes-seleh.
  8. Seleh, P. (2015, November 27). Animal research stirs up controversy at UCLA. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=7036.
  9. Seleh, P. (2016, April 5). Anti-Cop Activists at UCLA Declare “Cop Free Zone”. Retrieved from http://thebruinstandarduc.wix.com/bruinstandard#!AntiCop-Activists-at-UCLA-Declare-Cop-Free-Zone/cjds/570368f30cf2e0dbcac4b721.
  10. Seleh, P. (2015, May 13). Berkeley students protest for cows’ rights on Mother’s Day. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6505.
  11. Seleh, P. (2015, December 1). Brown Students Can Finally Discuss Topics Freely… In a Secret Facebook Group. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1504/brown-students-can-finally-discuss-topics-freely-pardes-seleh.
  12. Seleh, P. (2015, November 16). Cal Berkeley to open minority themed house next fall. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6992.
  13. Seleh, P. (2016, March 3). Calling Out in Kind: Students for Justice in Palestine. Retrieved from http://thebruinstandarduc.wix.com/bruinstandard#!Calling-Out-in-Kind-Students-for-Justice-in-Palestine/cjds/5700eed90cf2b279cdbc97e3.
  14. Seleh, P. (2014, November 24). Congressman Henry Waxman, State Senator Ted W. Lieu, and State Senator-Elect Ben Allen Condemn BDS Vote By UCLA Student Government. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/congressman-henry-waxman-state-senator-ted-w-lieu-and-state-senator-elect-ben-allen-condemn-bds.  
  15. Seleh, P. (2015, September 25). Cubans Not Pope Fans. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/159/cubans-not-pope-fans-pardes-seleh.
  16. Seleh, P. (2015, December 16). Daily Wire Reached Out to Academics Who Ripped ‘Racist’ Scalia. Here’s What They Said.. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1891/daily-wire-reached-out-academics-who-ripped-racist-pardes-seleh.
  17. Seleh, P. (2015, October 1). Featuring the Bernie 2016 Supporter. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/entertainment/223/featuring-bernie-2016-supporter-pardes-seleh.
  18. Seleh, P. (2015, November 4). Feds to Pull $6 Million from School for Not Allowing Boy in Girls’ Showers. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/877/feds-pull-6-million-school-not-allowing-boy-girls-pardes-seleh.
  19. Seleh, P. (2015, August 6). Harvard project tackles ‘gender bias’ in teens, parents. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6710.
  20. Seleh, P. (2015, November 18). Here’s How the Left Manipulates Research to Prove Your Wife is a Lesbian. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1190/heres-how-left-manipulates-research-prove-your-pardes-seleh.
  21. Seleh, P. (2015, September 25). Hillary Says Obamacare Is A ‘Moral Issue’, Americans Disagree. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/158/hillary-says-obamacare-moral-issue-americans-pardes-seleh.
  22. Seleh, P. (2015, November 4). Hillary Wants to Force Employers to Hire Ex-Cons. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/882/hillary-wants-force-employers-hire-ex-cons-pardes-seleh.
  23. Seleh, P. (2015, March 9). Hillel At UCLA Takes Credit For Publicity Of The Rachel Beyda Incident. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/hillel-ucla-takes-credit-publicity-rachel-beyda-incident.
  24. Seleh, P. (2015, October 23). If Radical Islam and Gender Dysphoria Had a Child, It Would Look Like This. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/647/if-radical-islam-and-gender-dysphoria-had-child-it-pardes-seleh.
  25. Seleh, P. (2015, June 26). Illegal immigrant graduate flies Mexican flag at graduation. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6629.
  26. Seleh, P. (2015, September 10). Is a Berkeley student not diverse enough to fight sexual assault?. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6790.
  27. Seleh, P. (2015, July 6). Kinky sex club rises at USC. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6650.
  28. Seleh, P. (2015, October 28). Los Angeles Times Refuses to Reveal Criteria for Reporting Race in Crime Stories. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/732/los-angeles-times-refuses-reveal-criteria-pardes-seleh.
  29. Seleh, P. (2014, November 19). Major UCLA Donor Pledges to Pull Funds If Administration Backs BDS. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/major-ucla-donor-pledges-pull-funds-if-administration-backs-bds.
  30. Seleh, P. (2015, October 17). Media Misrepresent ‘Gay Gene’ Study Without Contacting Lead Author. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/478/media-misrepresent-gay-gene-study-without-pardes-seleh.
  31. Seleh, P. (2015, November 17). Mizzou Administration Refuses To Identify Swastika Pooper. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1183/mizzou-administration-refuses-identify-swastika-pardes-seleh.
  32. Seleh, P. (2015, May 12). Mizzou dining services apologizes for employee’s ‘insensitive’ Cinco de Mayo costume. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6497.
  33. Seleh, P. (2015, November 12). Mizzou Student VP ‘Tired’ of Free Speech. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1079/mizzou-student-vp-tired-free-speech-pardes-seleh.
  34. Seleh, P. (2015, November 3). Momentum Grows on Tarantino Boycott. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/866/boycotting-tarantino-pardes-seleh.
  35. Seleh, P. (2015, October 21). Museum of Tolerance: State Department Responsible for Unfair Coverage of Israel. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/553/museum-tolerance-state-department-responsible-pardes-seleh.
  36. Seleh, P. (2015, September 22). New York Jews Backlash Against Politicians Supporting Iran Deal. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/125/new-york-jews-backlash-against-politicians-pardes-seleh.
  37. Seleh, P. (2015, October 23). NPR: Aborting Female Babies is Discriminatory. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/634/npr-aborting-female-babies-discriminatory-pardes-seleh.
  38. Seleh, P. (2015, October 1). Obama Utterly Silent as Abbas Incites War Against Israel. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/229/obama-utterly-silent-abbas-incites-war-against-pardes-seleh.
  39. Seleh, P. (2015, October 30). Planned Pregnanthood Discriminates Against Trans Men: No Contraceptives Because Male Pregnancy ‘Not Popular’. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/788/planned-pregnanthood-discriminates-against-trans-pardes-seleh.
  40. Seleh, P. (2015, March 10). Pro-Israel Groups At UCLA Address Anti-Semitism While Openly Supporting SJP at UCLA. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/pro-israel-groups-ucla-address-anti-semitism-while-openly-supporting-sjp-ucla.
  41. Seleh, P.  (2016, February 29). Prof. under investigation for sexual assault to continue teaching at UCLA. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=7339.
  42. Seleh, P. (2015, April 15). Professor Tormented At Connecticut College For Criticizing Hamas. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/professor-tormented-connecticut-college-criticizing-hamas.
  43. Seleh, P. (2015, July 22). Protesters at UC Berkeley get nude for trees. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6689.
  44. Seleh, P. (2015, September 22). Republican Congressman Champion for Planned Parenthood. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/123/republican-congressman-champion-planned-parenthood-pardes-seleh.
  45. Seleh, P. (2015, November 24). Satirical ‘White Student Union’ Receives Death Threats for Protesting Anti-White Racism. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1348/white-student-union-receives-death-threats-pardes-seleh.
  46. Seleh, P. (2015, November 20). ‘Scream Queens’ Beats Up Antonin Scalia Physically. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/entertainment/1263/scream-queens-beats-antonin-scalia-physically-pardes-seleh.
  47. Seleh, P. (2015, November 4). Scream Queens: Snotty Sorority Killer Chick’s Dad Supports Ted Cruz. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/entertainment/884/scream-queens-snotty-sorority-killer-chicks-dad-pardes-seleh.
  48. Seleh, P. (2015, April 18). Screening of American Sniper Hotly Contested at UCLA. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/screening-american-sniper-hotly-contested-ucla.
  49. Seleh, P. (2014, November 20). Second UCLA Donor Pledges Funding Cut If Administration Doesn’t Condemn. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/second-ucla-donor-pledges-funding-cut-if-administration-doesnt-condemn-bds.
  50. Seleh, P. (2015, April 8). SFSU President Leslie Wong Bans School-Funded Travel To Indiana. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/sfsu-president-leslie-wong-bans-school-funded-travel-indiana.   
  51. Seleh, P. (2015, October 9). Students from 82 colleges urge Pope Francis to divest Vatican from fossil fuels. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6877.
  52. Seleh, P. (2015). Study: No, There’s No Evidence Of a ‘Gay Gene’
  53. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/445/study-no-theres-no-evidence-gay-gene-pardes-seleh.
  54. Seleh, P. (2015, December 14). The University of Wisconsin Voted On Whether Free Speech Is A Good Thing. Here Are The Results.. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1859/university-wisconsin-voted-whether-free-speech-pardes-seleh.
  55. Seleh, P. (2014, November 21). Third UCLA Donor Pledges to Pull Funds Over BDS. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/third-ucla-donor-pledges-pull-funds-over-bds.
  56. Seleh, P. (2014, November 11). TruthRevolt Students Protest SJP, Supposedly Pro-Israel Groups Undercut. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/truthrevolt-students-protest-sjp-supposedly-pro-israel-groups-undercut.
  57. Seleh, P. (2015, November 8). UC Berkeley Dems to frame GOP as racist during Tuesday’s debate. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6958.
  58. Seleh, P. (2015, November 23). UC Berkeley housing co-op establishes safe space guidelines. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=7022.
  59. Seleh, P. (2015, October 28). UC Berkeley study links economic inequality to climate change. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6930.
  60. Seleh, P. (2015, November 6). UC Files Amicus Brief Supporting Affirmative Action. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/944/uc-files-amicus-brief-supporting-affirmative-pardes-seleh.
  61. Seleh, P. (2015, November 10). UC Merced Attacker Was A Radical Muslim. The University, Police, and Media Covered It Up. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1024/uc-merced-attacker-was-radical-muslim-university-pardes-seleh.
  62. Seleh, P. (2015, April 21). UCLA Activist Over Screening of American Sniper: “Death to America”. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-activist-over-screening-american-sniper-death-america.
  63. Seleh, P. (2015, April 22). UCLA Activist: “What’s Wrong with Death to America???”. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-activist-whats-wrong-death-america.
  64. Seleh, P. (2014, December 11). UCLA Adds Cuba To Its List Of Study Abroad Programs. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-adds-cuba-its-list-study-abroad-programs.
  65. Seleh, P. (2015, March 18). UCLA Chancellor Compares Anti-SJP Posters To Swastikas. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-chancellor-compares-anti-sjp-posters-swastikas.
  66. Seleh, P. (2014, November 24). UCLA Donor Reverses Decision To Pull Funds After Administration Bucks BDSe to Chancellor’s rejection of divestment resolution. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-donor-reverses-decision-pull-funds-after-administration-bucks-bdse-chancellors-rejection.
  67. Seleh, P. (2015, October 23). UCLA institutes faculty ‘bias awareness training’. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6917.
  68. Seleh, P. (2015, March 17). UCLA Newspaper Defends Pro-Terror Student Group. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-newspaper-defends-pro-terror-student-group.
  69. Seleh, P. (2014, December 11). UCLA Professor Under Fire For Exam Question Relating To Ferguson Shooting. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-professor-under-fire-exam-question-relating-ferguson-shooting.  
  70. Seleh, P. (2015, July 13). UCLA provides internship opportunities to illegal immigrants. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6662.
  71. Seleh, P. (2015, February 5). UCLA Republican Students Attacked for Being White. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-republican-students-attacked-being-white.
  72. Seleh, P. (2015, November 11). UCLA Student Council Unanimously Passes Resolution Against Calling SJP ‘Anti-Semitic’. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-student-council-unanimously-passes-resolution-against-calling-sjp-anti-semitic.
  73. Seleh, P. (2015, October 8). UCLA Students Cry Racism Over White Kids Dressing Up As Kim and Kanye. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/324/ucla-students-cry-racism-over-white-kids-dressing-pardes-seleh.
  74. Seleh, P. (2014, September 23). UCLA Students Stand Up To SJP. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-students-stand-sjp.
  75. Seleh, P. (2015, March 10). UCSA Votes To Divest From Gun Companies. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucsa-votes-divest-gun-companies.  
  76. Seleh, P. (2015, December 7). UCSB Administration ‘Triggered’ by White Student Union, to Offer Counseling Services. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1633/ucsb-administration-triggered-white-student-union-pardes-seleh.
  77. Seleh, P. (2015, December 2). UCSB White Student Union Releases ‘List of Demands’. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1519/ucsb-white-student-union-releases-list-demands-pardes-seleh.
  78. Seleh, P. (2016, February 16). Univ. of California selectively recruits Latino and black students. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=7291.
  79. Seleh, P. (2015, September 11). Univ. of Illinois allows 9/11 memorial. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6799.
  80. Seleh, P. (2015, April 23). University Of Maryland Cancels Screening Of American Sniper. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/university-maryland-cancels-screening-american-sniper.
  81. Seleh, P. (2015, October 8). University of Toronto Dumps Transgender Bathrooms After Peeping Incidents. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/330/university-toronto-dumps-transgender-bathrooms-pardes-seleh.
  82. Seleh, P. (2015, February 22). UPDATE: NY Taxi Driver Yells ‘All Jews Must Die’. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/update-ny-taxi-driver-yells-all-jews-must-die.
  83. Seleh, P. (2015, March 25). USAC President Avinoam Baral Blames Netanyahu for BDS. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/usac-president-avinoam-baral-blames-netanyahu-bds.
  84. Seleh, P. (2015, October 8). Victims of Sharia Mandate Respond to Ben Carson’s Comments. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/327/victims-sharia-mandate-respond-ben-carsons-pardes-seleh.
  85. Seleh, P. (2015, May 23). Was a landmark study on gay marriage faked? Looks like it. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6526.
  86. Seleh, P. (2015, September 22). Was McConnell’s Revote on the Iran Deal a Hoax?. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/124/was-mcconnells-revote-iran-deal-hoax-pardes-seleh.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Staff Writer, Daily Wire; Former Editor-in-Chief, The Bruin Standard; Former California Campus Correspondent, Campus Reform.

[2] Individual Publication Date: November 15, 2017 at www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-five; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2018 at www.in-sightjournal.com.

[3] Santa Monica College (2012-2014); B.S. (2014-2016), Human Biology and Society, University of California, Los Angeles; Lifeguard Instructor, American Red Cross.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Pardes Seleh.

[5] LinkedIn. (2016). Pardes Seleh. Retrieved from https://www.linkedin.com/in/pardes-seleh-b5713486.

[6] Some of the topics included a Cinco de Mayo controversy, protests against “mother cows’ milk,” a faked gay marriage study, a graduate (and illegal immigrant) waving a Mexican flag, a USC kinky sex club, internship opportunities for illegal immigrants (10-week paid programs), nudity for trees, Harvard attempts to combat ‘gender bias,’ Berkeley sexual assault and diversity, 9/11 memorial,  colleges urging Pope Francis to divest from fossil fuels, ‘bias awareness training’ at UCLA, the political lobbing maneuver of a lumping economic inequality and climate change, UC Berkeley democrats framing GOP candidates in 2015 as racist, UC Berkeley opening a “minority-themed house” based on focus groups by People of Color Caucus together with the Demographic Inclusion Task Force, chant for Black Lives Matter led by a 4-year-old, safe space guidelines for UC Berkeley, controversy over animal research, 4,000-20,000USD for about 3,500 illegal immigrants (an allotment of 5,000,000USD), Professor Gabriel Piterberg sexual assault investigation and teaching, and (a recent collaborative one) on US students and the best means to achieve the American Dream.

[7] Seleh, P. (2015, May 12). Mizzou dining services apologizes for employee’s ‘insensitive’ Cinco de Mayo costume. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6497.

[8] Seleh, P. (2015, May 13). Berkeley students protest for cows’ rights on Mother’s Day. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6505.

[9] Seleh, P. (2015, May 23). Was a landmark study on gay marriage faked? Looks like it. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6526.

[10] Seleh, P. (2015, June 26). Illegal immigrant graduate flies Mexican flag at graduation. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6629.

[11] Seleh, P. (2015, July 6). Kinky sex club rises at USC. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6650.

[12] Seleh, P. (2015, July 13). UCLA provides internship opportunities to illegal immigrants. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6662.

[13] Seleh, P. (2015, July 22). Protesters at UC Berkeley get nude for trees. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6689.

[14] Seleh, P. (2015, August 6). Harvard project tackles ‘gender bias’ in teens, parents. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6710.

[15] Seleh, P. (2015, September 10). Is a Berkeley student not diverse enough to fight sexual assault?. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6790.

[16] Seleh, P. (2015, September 11). Univ. of Illinois allows 9/11 memorial. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6799.

[17] Seleh, P. (2015, October 9). Students from 82 colleges urge Pope Francis to divest Vatican from fossil fuels. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6877.

[18] Seleh, P. (2015, October 23). UCLA institutes faculty ‘bias awareness training’. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6917.

[19] Seleh, P. (2015, October 28). UC Berkeley study links economic inequality to climate change. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6930.

[20] Seleh, P. (2015, November 8). UC Berkeley Dems to frame GOP as racist during Tuesday’s debate. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6958.

[21] Seleh, P. (2015, November 16). Cal Berkeley to open minority themed house next fall. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6992.

[22] Seleh, P. (2015, November 16). 4-year-old leads chant at UCLA Black Lives Matter walkout. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6998.

[23] Seleh, P. (2015, November 23). UC Berkeley housing co-op establishes safe space guidelines. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=7022.

[24] Seleh, P. (2015, November 27). Animal research stirs up controversy at UCLA. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=7036.

[25] Seleh, P. (2016, February 1). UC system allots $5M in financial aid to illegals, legal immigrants not elligible. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=7230.

[26] Seleh, P. (2016, February 16). Univ. of California selectively recruits Latino and black students. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=7291.

[27] Seleh, P.  (2016, February 29). Prof. under investigation for sexual assault to continue teaching at UCLA. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=7339.

[28] Campus Reform Staff.. (2016, March 4). VIDEO: College students think free handouts are the way to achieve American Dream. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=7354.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Five) [Online].November 2017; 15(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-five.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, November 15). An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Five). Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-five.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Five). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A, November. 2017. <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-five>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Five).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-five.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Five).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A (November 2017). www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-five.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Five)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 15.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-five>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Five)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 15.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-five.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Five).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 15.A (2017):November. 2017. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-five>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Five) [Internet]. (2017, November; 15(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-five.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2017-11-08

An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Four)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 15.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Eleven)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: November 8, 2017

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,506

ISSN 2369-6885

Pardes Seleh

Abstract

An Interview with Pardes Seleh, B.S. She discusses: political position of the United States on Israel now and into the future; differentiation of Classical Liberalism of someone like John Stuart Mill from streams of modern Liberalism and Leftism; agreement and disagreement of the political Left and Right; the proper scope and limit of the government; Campus Reform and PragerU; pluses and minuses of PragerU; impacts of PragerU; and big takeaway from CPAC.

Keywords: Campus Reform, Daily Wire, Independent Journal Review, Pardes Seleh, The Bruin Standard.

An Interview with Pardes Seleh, B.S.: Former Writer, Independent Journal Review; Former Staff Writer, Daily Wire; Former Editor-in-Chief, The Bruin Standard; Former California Campus Correspondent, Campus Reform (Part Four)[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been edited for clarity and readability.*​

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What should be the political position of the United States on Israel at the moment and into the future?

Pardes Seleh: An alliance has been beneficial and will be beneficial into the future. I am not saying this from a Jewish perspective. Generally, it is Israel doing well for its region. I lived there for a year.

Its geographic position is good for us to have as an ally. They are in the middle of a bunch of surrounding countries that can be threatening to us at times. It can be beneficial for us to be strongly allied with Israel at times.

They love the US. Israelis love Americans. Culturally, they are this one small population in that area that will always be on our side. It is also very Americanized there. They share the freedom of the press, freedom of religion, and so on.

They are not as good at free markets as we are. But they share a lot of the sentiments. In general, they are good allies to have, but just for us but for them as well. There isn’t any reason we shouldn’t try to sustain this bond as much as possible.

For some purposes, they might be better than we are. Their military is doing really well. Their intelligence is good. Now, I sound like I am advertising for Israel [Laughing].

2. Jacobsen: What differentiates the Classical Liberalism of someone like John Stuart Mill from streams of modern Liberalism and Leftism?

Seleh: So, I am probably going to give you a bunch of answers. I have read a some on this. From what I know, Classical Liberals, most of us are Classical Liberals. Most of us meaning liberals and conservatives in the United States.

Most people in the US believe in equal rights for women, men, children, homosexuals, black people, white people, whatever your ethnicity is, but I think modern Liberalism…I can’t comment on.

Because I see it as Leftism in a lot of ways. It is a resistance movement. It believes in inequality, in promoting reverse inequality in order to get us to the goal of being equal.

So, while Classical Liberalism will say, “Yes, we know most CEOs are men and not women. While we know most colleges are or Ivy League schools are white people and not racial minorities, we will give them all equal opportunities and promote equal opportunities.”

But they might still be unequal for whatever reason. There might not still be equal amounts of racial minorities and whites, of men and women. We will give them all equal opportunities and promote equal opportunities.

There might still not be equal amounts of whites and colored peoples in schools. There might not be equal amounts of men and women who are CEOs in companies. Classical Liberalism promotes equality of opportunity. Leftism is more focused on equality of outcome.

We’re not equal until there is an equal amount of men and women in schools or as CEOs of companies. We are not satisfied until there are equal amounts of everyone. The only way to do this is to engage in equally reverse discriminatory behavior by hiring more women as CEOs and people of color rather than men and people of no color.

Basically, the favoring of the lesser or what is called “the oppressed” in order to reach that level of equality. So, in that way, Leftism is not very Liberal because it is not very Liberal, even though it is influencing a lot of Leftism.

It is not Liberal in the sense that it doesn’t provide equality of opportunity. Even though, a Leftist will say that they are supporting equality of opportunity. It is a forced equality. It is equal but not fair.

I’ll say this simpler. Classical Liberalism focuses on equality of opportunity. Leftism focuses primarily on equality of outcome. Leftism only recognizes social justice. It is, “We believe in equality of opportunity, but we need to have ongoing social justice programs and activities to try and accelerate the move towards an equal outcome. Otherwise, we may never get there. It may be fair, but never equal.”

It is in-between the two. I was reading Sheryl Sandberg. She is the COO of Facebook. She had a series of books on success. She talks about successful women, successful college students. She says that we will never be equal until there are as many women CEOs as there are men.

That is her argument. It is not enough for us to have equality of opportunity. She believes in equality of opportunity, but she still believes that we are not fully equal until the outcome is equal too.

3. Jacobsen: In the United States, what do the political Left and the political Right agree, and disagree, on to you – fundamental and secondary issues/principles?

Seleh: To me, politics in the United States right now are about the Left versus free market capitalists. There is one thing that binds the politics of socialists on the left and totalitarians on the right in the United States and that is the emphasis on raising taxes and expanding the government to enforce their respective positions, thus limiting the free will of the people. Calling oneself a Republican does not necessarily mean one is for limited government.

Everybody agrees on the concept of equality, whether outcome or opportunities. I think we’re all liberals in a sense. We all what we want to say to be okay. Our duties and how we attain that equality may be different.

We all, generally but not every single person, on the Left and Right believe in some form of equality. How they think this can be attained is different.

With President Donald Trump in office, many Right-wingers are as fiscally conservative as they used to be. So, now, I think we have moved more into a nationalist versus globalist situation.

It has moved to a European mentality of Right and Left, which is nationalist versus globalist. In general, being a conservative versus being a Liberal has always been rooted in what you think the role of government is, conservatives always wanted less government intervention.

Liberals always wanted the government to do more. But I think we’re moving, under Donald Trump, towards a globalist versus nationalist spectrum. Those groups, nationalist ones, in the US are becoming isolationist.

So, you have nationalist groups on both the Right and the Left.

4. Jacobsen: There are ideas in political theory about anarchy – no government, minarchy – reduced government, then things scale up from that in terms of the level and extent, the type and extent, that government intervenes in the lives of citizens and organizations. Now, what do you consider the proper scope and limit of government?

Seleh: I think the government is important and should enforce the justice system. Government is there to serve the needs of everyone who it is serving. But I also believe in small government as much as possible, not no government but smaller or limited government.

I know those are two different things. We have a small and limited government, but there is a lot of money being dumped into government programs. Many parts of our government are ineffective because they are limited by different things.

Either bureaucracies or government programs have been around for a long time, it keeps growing. I think a lot of our government is ineffective.

We can afford to be without them.

5. Jacobsen: Now, you work as a California Campus Correspondent for Campus Reform, and as the Chair of Student Ambassadorship for PragerU.[5] What tasks and responsibilities come with these positions?

Seleh:  As a campus correspondent for Campus Reform, I looked for and covered stories of liberal indoctrination on college campuses across California, but mostly at my alma mater, UCLA. As the PragerU Chair of Student Ambassadorship, I got involved with marketing PragerU videos and content on social media and at events. I attended CPAC 2016 with PragerU and helped publicize PragerU’s mission.  

6. Jacobsen: What seems like the pluses and minuses of PragerU for online and free education? It is a university named after Dennis Prager, who is a prominent conservative commentator on culture and society. Even though, there are no certifications. There are conservative discussions of normal university content, which tends to lean to the social, political, and economic left.

Seleh: I think the benefit is taking college classes from a different political perspective because in college I felt as though I had to take everything my professors said with a grain of salt.

Most of my professors were very Liberal. I expected that what they were saying was biased by their view. But I figured a Prager video would have a similar lesson as if I were in school but from a different perspective.

It is always interesting to look at things from a different political perspective.

7. Jacobsen: What have been impacts of PragerU’s mission, vision, and free online education in campus culture, even wider youth culture?

Seleh: People share the videos even if they aren’t conservatives. Prager and most of the people there are conservative. It is majority conservative as an organization. It is a conservative company, but they tend to promote fact most of the time.

I see them shared by people of all political persuasions. They have a reach. The videos can be on relationships, marriages, religion, social success. They are debatable for people from all walks.

I think they are very relatable.

8. Jacobsen: What was the big take-home message from CPAC 2016?

Seleh: Conservatives are winning. It is a new culture. A new wave of young people who were moving towards the Right. To me, it seemed like being a conservative was the new cool.

Democratic politicians were no longer as appealing. People wanted a more refreshed perspective. Being conservative was the new cool, the new black…

9. Jacobsen: …[Laughing]…

Seleh: …Like “Orange is the New Black,” there were girls wearing matching elephant skirts. It almost felt like a carnival, fun. There were lingerie pieces hanging in elevators. You could tell it was a big hookup thing.

References

  1. Campus Reform Staff. (2016, March 4). VIDEO: College students think free handouts are the way to achieve American Dream. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=7354.
  2. Cretella, M.A., Van Meter, Q., & McHugh, P. (2016). Gender Ideology Harms Children. Retrieved from http://www.acpeds.org/the-college-speaks/position-statements/gender-ideology-harms-children.
  3. Legal Information Institute. (n.d.).  First Amendment: Amendment I. Retrieved from https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/first_amendment
  4. LinkedIn. (2016). Pardes Seleh. Retrieved from https://www.linkedin.com/in/pardes-seleh-b5713486.
  5. Seleh, P. (2015, September 25). 11 House Republicans Fight Global Warming, Face Criticism From Other Republicans. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/163/11-house-republicans-fight-global-warming-face-pardes-seleh.
  6. Seleh, P. (2015, November 16). 4-year-old leads chant at UCLA Black Lives Matter walkout. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6998.
  7. Seleh, P. (2015, November 18). An Interview with Anti-Abortion Activist Lila Rose. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1193/interview-anti-abortion-activist-lila-rose-pardes-seleh.
  8. Seleh, P. (2015, November 27). Animal research stirs up controversy at UCLA. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=7036.
  9. Seleh, P. (2016, April 5). Anti-Cop Activists at UCLA Declare “Cop Free Zone”. Retrieved from http://thebruinstandarduc.wix.com/bruinstandard#!AntiCop-Activists-at-UCLA-Declare-Cop-Free-Zone/cjds/570368f30cf2e0dbcac4b721.
  10. Seleh, P. (2015, May 13). Berkeley students protest for cows’ rights on Mother’s Day. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6505.
  11. Seleh, P. (2015, December 1). Brown Students Can Finally Discuss Topics Freely… In a Secret Facebook Group. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1504/brown-students-can-finally-discuss-topics-freely-pardes-seleh.
  12. Seleh, P. (2015, November 16). Cal Berkeley to open minority themed house next fall. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6992.
  13. Seleh, P. (2016, March 3). Calling Out in Kind: Students for Justice in Palestine. Retrieved from http://thebruinstandarduc.wix.com/bruinstandard#!Calling-Out-in-Kind-Students-for-Justice-in-Palestine/cjds/5700eed90cf2b279cdbc97e3.
  14. Seleh, P. (2014, November 24). Congressman Henry Waxman, State Senator Ted W. Lieu, and State Senator-Elect Ben Allen Condemn BDS Vote By UCLA Student Government. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/congressman-henry-waxman-state-senator-ted-w-lieu-and-state-senator-elect-ben-allen-condemn-bds.  
  15. Seleh, P. (2015, September 25). Cubans Not Pope Fans. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/159/cubans-not-pope-fans-pardes-seleh.
  16. Seleh, P. (2015, December 16). Daily Wire Reached Out to Academics Who Ripped ‘Racist’ Scalia. Here’s What They Said.. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1891/daily-wire-reached-out-academics-who-ripped-racist-pardes-seleh.
  17. Seleh, P. (2015, October 1). Featuring the Bernie 2016 Supporter. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/entertainment/223/featuring-bernie-2016-supporter-pardes-seleh.
  18. Seleh, P. (2015, November 4). Feds to Pull $6 Million from School for Not Allowing Boy in Girls’ Showers. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/877/feds-pull-6-million-school-not-allowing-boy-girls-pardes-seleh.
  19. Seleh, P. (2015, August 6). Harvard project tackles ‘gender bias’ in teens, parents. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6710.
  20. Seleh, P. (2015, November 18). Here’s How the Left Manipulates Research to Prove Your Wife is a Lesbian. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1190/heres-how-left-manipulates-research-prove-your-pardes-seleh.
  21. Seleh, P. (2015, September 25). Hillary Says Obamacare Is A ‘Moral Issue’, Americans Disagree. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/158/hillary-says-obamacare-moral-issue-americans-pardes-seleh.
  22. Seleh, P. (2015, November 4). Hillary Wants to Force Employers to Hire Ex-Cons. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/882/hillary-wants-force-employers-hire-ex-cons-pardes-seleh.
  23. Seleh, P. (2015, March 9). Hillel At UCLA Takes Credit For Publicity Of The Rachel Beyda Incident. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/hillel-ucla-takes-credit-publicity-rachel-beyda-incident.
  24. Seleh, P. (2015, October 23). If Radical Islam and Gender Dysphoria Had a Child, It Would Look Like This. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/647/if-radical-islam-and-gender-dysphoria-had-child-it-pardes-seleh.
  25. Seleh, P. (2015, June 26). Illegal immigrant graduate flies Mexican flag at graduation. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6629.
  26. Seleh, P. (2015, September 10). Is a Berkeley student not diverse enough to fight sexual assault?. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6790.
  27. Seleh, P. (2015, July 6). Kinky sex club rises at USC. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6650.
  28. Seleh, P. (2015, October 28). Los Angeles Times Refuses to Reveal Criteria for Reporting Race in Crime Stories. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/732/los-angeles-times-refuses-reveal-criteria-pardes-seleh.
  29. Seleh, P. (2014, November 19). Major UCLA Donor Pledges to Pull Funds If Administration Backs BDS. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/major-ucla-donor-pledges-pull-funds-if-administration-backs-bds.
  30. Seleh, P. (2015, October 17). Media Misrepresent ‘Gay Gene’ Study Without Contacting Lead Author. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/478/media-misrepresent-gay-gene-study-without-pardes-seleh.
  31. Seleh, P. (2015, November 17). Mizzou Administration Refuses To Identify Swastika Pooper. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1183/mizzou-administration-refuses-identify-swastika-pardes-seleh.
  32. Seleh, P. (2015, May 12). Mizzou dining services apologizes for employee’s ‘insensitive’ Cinco de Mayo costume. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6497.
  33. Seleh, P. (2015, November 12). Mizzou Student VP ‘Tired’ of Free Speech. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1079/mizzou-student-vp-tired-free-speech-pardes-seleh.
  34. Seleh, P. (2015, November 3). Momentum Grows on Tarantino Boycott. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/866/boycotting-tarantino-pardes-seleh.
  35. Seleh, P. (2015, October 21). Museum of Tolerance: State Department Responsible for Unfair Coverage of Israel. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/553/museum-tolerance-state-department-responsible-pardes-seleh.
  36. Seleh, P. (2015, September 22). New York Jews Backlash Against Politicians Supporting Iran Deal. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/125/new-york-jews-backlash-against-politicians-pardes-seleh.
  37. Seleh, P. (2015, October 23). NPR: Aborting Female Babies is Discriminatory. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/634/npr-aborting-female-babies-discriminatory-pardes-seleh.
  38. Seleh, P. (2015, October 1). Obama Utterly Silent as Abbas Incites War Against Israel. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/229/obama-utterly-silent-abbas-incites-war-against-pardes-seleh.
  39. Seleh, P. (2015, October 30). Planned Pregnanthood Discriminates Against Trans Men: No Contraceptives Because Male Pregnancy ‘Not Popular’. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/788/planned-pregnanthood-discriminates-against-trans-pardes-seleh.
  40. Seleh, P. (2015, March 10). Pro-Israel Groups At UCLA Address Anti-Semitism While Openly Supporting SJP at UCLA. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/pro-israel-groups-ucla-address-anti-semitism-while-openly-supporting-sjp-ucla.
  41. Seleh, P.  (2016, February 29). Prof. under investigation for sexual assault to continue teaching at UCLA. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=7339.
  42. Seleh, P. (2015, April 15). Professor Tormented At Connecticut College For Criticizing Hamas. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/professor-tormented-connecticut-college-criticizing-hamas.
  43. Seleh, P. (2015, July 22). Protesters at UC Berkeley get nude for trees. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6689.
  44. Seleh, P. (2015, September 22). Republican Congressman Champion for Planned Parenthood. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/123/republican-congressman-champion-planned-parenthood-pardes-seleh.
  45. Seleh, P. (2015, November 24). Satirical ‘White Student Union’ Receives Death Threats for Protesting Anti-White Racism. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1348/white-student-union-receives-death-threats-pardes-seleh.
  46. Seleh, P. (2015, November 20). ‘Scream Queens’ Beats Up Antonin Scalia Physically. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/entertainment/1263/scream-queens-beats-antonin-scalia-physically-pardes-seleh.
  47. Seleh, P. (2015, November 4). Scream Queens: Snotty Sorority Killer Chick’s Dad Supports Ted Cruz. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/entertainment/884/scream-queens-snotty-sorority-killer-chicks-dad-pardes-seleh.
  48. Seleh, P. (2015, April 18). Screening of American Sniper Hotly Contested at UCLA. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/screening-american-sniper-hotly-contested-ucla.
  49. Seleh, P. (2014, November 20). Second UCLA Donor Pledges Funding Cut If Administration Doesn’t Condemn. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/second-ucla-donor-pledges-funding-cut-if-administration-doesnt-condemn-bds.
  50. Seleh, P. (2015, April 8). SFSU President Leslie Wong Bans School-Funded Travel To Indiana. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/sfsu-president-leslie-wong-bans-school-funded-travel-indiana.   
  51. Seleh, P. (2015, October 9). Students from 82 colleges urge Pope Francis to divest Vatican from fossil fuels. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6877.
  52. Seleh, P. (2015). Study: No, There’s No Evidence Of a ‘Gay Gene’
  53. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/445/study-no-theres-no-evidence-gay-gene-pardes-seleh.
  54. Seleh, P. (2015, December 14). The University of Wisconsin Voted On Whether Free Speech Is A Good Thing. Here Are The Results.. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1859/university-wisconsin-voted-whether-free-speech-pardes-seleh.
  55. Seleh, P. (2014, November 21). Third UCLA Donor Pledges to Pull Funds Over BDS. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/third-ucla-donor-pledges-pull-funds-over-bds.
  56. Seleh, P. (2014, November 11). TruthRevolt Students Protest SJP, Supposedly Pro-Israel Groups Undercut. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/truthrevolt-students-protest-sjp-supposedly-pro-israel-groups-undercut.
  57. Seleh, P. (2015, November 8). UC Berkeley Dems to frame GOP as racist during Tuesday’s debate. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6958.
  58. Seleh, P. (2015, November 23). UC Berkeley housing co-op establishes safe space guidelines. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=7022.
  59. Seleh, P. (2015, October 28). UC Berkeley study links economic inequality to climate change. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6930.
  60. Seleh, P. (2015, November 6). UC Files Amicus Brief Supporting Affirmative Action. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/944/uc-files-amicus-brief-supporting-affirmative-pardes-seleh.
  61. Seleh, P. (2015, November 10). UC Merced Attacker Was A Radical Muslim. The University, Police, and Media Covered It Up. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1024/uc-merced-attacker-was-radical-muslim-university-pardes-seleh.
  62. Seleh, P. (2015, April 21). UCLA Activist Over Screening of American Sniper: “Death to America”. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-activist-over-screening-american-sniper-death-america.
  63. Seleh, P. (2015, April 22). UCLA Activist: “What’s Wrong with Death to America???”. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-activist-whats-wrong-death-america.
  64. Seleh, P. (2014, December 11). UCLA Adds Cuba To Its List Of Study Abroad Programs. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-adds-cuba-its-list-study-abroad-programs.
  65. Seleh, P. (2015, March 18). UCLA Chancellor Compares Anti-SJP Posters To Swastikas. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-chancellor-compares-anti-sjp-posters-swastikas.
  66. Seleh, P. (2014, November 24). UCLA Donor Reverses Decision To Pull Funds After Administration Bucks BDSe to Chancellor’s rejection of divestment resolution. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-donor-reverses-decision-pull-funds-after-administration-bucks-bdse-chancellors-rejection.
  67. Seleh, P. (2015, October 23). UCLA institutes faculty ‘bias awareness training’. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6917.
  68. Seleh, P. (2015, March 17). UCLA Newspaper Defends Pro-Terror Student Group. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-newspaper-defends-pro-terror-student-group.
  69. Seleh, P. (2014, December 11). UCLA Professor Under Fire For Exam Question Relating To Ferguson Shooting. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-professor-under-fire-exam-question-relating-ferguson-shooting.  
  70. Seleh, P. (2015, July 13). UCLA provides internship opportunities to illegal immigrants. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6662.
  71. Seleh, P. (2015, February 5). UCLA Republican Students Attacked for Being White. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-republican-students-attacked-being-white.
  72. Seleh, P. (2015, November 11). UCLA Student Council Unanimously Passes Resolution Against Calling SJP ‘Anti-Semitic’. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-student-council-unanimously-passes-resolution-against-calling-sjp-anti-semitic.
  73. Seleh, P. (2015, October 8). UCLA Students Cry Racism Over White Kids Dressing Up As Kim and Kanye. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/324/ucla-students-cry-racism-over-white-kids-dressing-pardes-seleh.
  74. Seleh, P. (2014, September 23). UCLA Students Stand Up To SJP. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-students-stand-sjp.
  75. Seleh, P. (2015, March 10). UCSA Votes To Divest From Gun Companies. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucsa-votes-divest-gun-companies.  
  76. Seleh, P. (2015, December 7). UCSB Administration ‘Triggered’ by White Student Union, to Offer Counseling Services. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1633/ucsb-administration-triggered-white-student-union-pardes-seleh.
  77. Seleh, P. (2015, December 2). UCSB White Student Union Releases ‘List of Demands’. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1519/ucsb-white-student-union-releases-list-demands-pardes-seleh.
  78. Seleh, P. (2016, February 16). Univ. of California selectively recruits Latino and black students. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=7291.
  79. Seleh, P. (2015, September 11). Univ. of Illinois allows 9/11 memorial. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6799.
  80. Seleh, P. (2015, April 23). University Of Maryland Cancels Screening Of American Sniper. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/university-maryland-cancels-screening-american-sniper.
  81. Seleh, P. (2015, October 8). University of Toronto Dumps Transgender Bathrooms After Peeping Incidents. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/330/university-toronto-dumps-transgender-bathrooms-pardes-seleh.
  82. Seleh, P. (2015, February 22). UPDATE: NY Taxi Driver Yells ‘All Jews Must Die’. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/update-ny-taxi-driver-yells-all-jews-must-die.
  83. Seleh, P. (2015, March 25). USAC President Avinoam Baral Blames Netanyahu for BDS. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/usac-president-avinoam-baral-blames-netanyahu-bds.
  84. Seleh, P. (2015, October 8). Victims of Sharia Mandate Respond to Ben Carson’s Comments. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/327/victims-sharia-mandate-respond-ben-carsons-pardes-seleh.
  85. Seleh, P. (2015, May 23). Was a landmark study on gay marriage faked? Looks like it. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6526.
  86. Seleh, P. (2015, September 22). Was McConnell’s Revote on the Iran Deal a Hoax?. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/124/was-mcconnells-revote-iran-deal-hoax-pardes-seleh.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Editor-in-Chief, The Bruin Standard; California Campus Correspondent, Campus Reform; Staff Writer, Daily Wire.

[2] Individual Publication Date: November 8, 2017 at www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-four; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2018 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Lifeguard Instructor, American Red Cross; Undergraduate Student, Human Biology and Society, University of California, Los Angeles.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Pardes Seleh.

[5] LinkedIn. (2016). Pardes Seleh. Retrieved from https://www.linkedin.com/in/pardes-seleh-b5713486.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Four) [Online].November 2017; 15(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-four.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, November 8). An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Four). Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-four.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Four). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A, November. 2017. <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-four>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-four.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A (November 2017). www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-three.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Four)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 15.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-four>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Four)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 15.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-four.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 15.A (2017):November. 2017. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-four>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Four) [Internet]. (2017, November; 15(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-four.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2017-11-01

An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Three)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 15.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Eleven)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: November 1, 2017

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,678

ISSN 2369-6885

Pardes Seleh

Abstract

An Interview with Pardes Seleh, B.S. She discusses: naïvete; language proficiency; studies; volunteer capacities; BDS and SJP; and anti-semitism.

Keywords: Campus Reform, Daily Wire, Independent Journal Review, Pardes Seleh, The Bruin Standard.

An Interview with Pardes Seleh, B.S.: Former Writer, Independent Journal Review; Former Staff Writer, Daily Wire; Former Editor-in-Chief, The Bruin Standard; Former California Campus Correspondent, Campus Reform (Part Three)[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been edited for clarity and readability.*​

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: You noted the naïvete, characteristic awkwardness, and lack of preparedness for culture in “the ‘real world.’” It seems like a negative to me. However, you overcame it. What positives came from development throughout early life in an isolated community? What negatives and positives might come from development in early life in the ‘real world’ or the mainstream culture? 

Pardes Seleh: I was a lot more awkward and timid during my elementary, junior high, and high school years. I think going to college and being exposed to so many opportunities gave me the courage I needed to pursue the things I wanted.

I haven’t thought about this enough [Laughing]. It is a really good question. Entering the secular world and not knowing anything about politics and entering the political world/scene, I think the biggest benefit was that it made me feel not embarrassed to ask questions.

In my head, I’m thinking, “Okay, I don’t know anything. I am coming to this knowing this. Not being exposed much.” In my head, I had an excuse as to why I didn’t know anything. So, I didn’t feel small or stupid or asking questions.

I found myself asking questions and trying to learn a lot in a very short amount of time, growing a lot faster in my career if I didn’t have that background. Also, I have the advantage of coming into this society with a clean slate.

I don’t have all of these preconceived notions about things. I didn’t have boyfriends or anything like that. I didn’t have negative experiences that a lot of my peers have now. I have a more optimistic worldview in some ways, which makes it easier for me to stay in my relationships.

Because I don’t have a lot of preconceived notions around a lot of things we’re dealing with now, I can analyze it with a fresh look. It is much less likely to be biased some deeper feeling I may have on the issues because I didn’t have exposure to it, if that makes sense.

Everything in politics, I didn’t know everything [Laughing]. I still don’t know a lot. I need to learn a lot. Every issue coming up, I had to think about. I didn’t grow up knowing what my perspective would be on various issues.

2. Jacobsen: You speak four languages – English, Hebrew, Farsi, and Spanish – at varying levels of proficiency. Where does this talent source itself?

Seleh: My first language was Farsi, which my parents spoke to me at home. I learned English and Spanish at school and in the community, and Hebrew during a gap year I spent studying in Israel after high school.

3. Jacobsen: You studied at Santa Monica College from 2012 to 2014, and then at University of California, Los Angeles, or UCLA, (Human Biology and Society) from 2014 to 2016. How does the specialization inform perspectives on social and political issues? What research paradigms tend to acquire the most funding? How does this bias research?

Seleh: Politics and social issues influence everything. Even scientific study – true, experimentally derived facts are objective and no longer theory based – but there are billions of studies and experiments yet to be conducted just on Earth.

There is an infinite amount of facts yet to be derived, and if you look hard enough you can find at least one fact out of them to contribute to your version of an absolute scientific reality. I’m not saying science is not absolute, just that it is constantly evolving based on ongoing study. And how do scientists and their research sponsors choose what kind of studies they pursue?

Most contemporary scientists are not drowning in inherited cash to fund random and rather expensive studies with no specific purpose other than aimlessly ‘exploring’ the scientific realm of nature.

The study of science is human-driven, and politics and social issues often drive humans, whether we choose to recognize it or not. Especially in the modern industrial society, science is heavily influenced by politics. Even subconsciously, what you choose to hypothesize about nature is no doubt influenced by your conscious past, as any Freudian can tell you.

I can go on and on about my opinions on this but I’ll spare you the boredom. Bottom line is, my interest in politics influences my perspectives on science just as my deep interest in population genetics influences sociopolitical thought.

4. Jacobsen: You have certification from the American Red Cross as a lifeguard.[5] In fact, this reflects lifeguard experience, multiple volunteer, or even research – such as perioperative medical research, capacities: volunteer at Bikur Cholim, student researcher at UCLA, student researcher, independent student volunteer, and TCAB volunteer at Cedars-Sinai.[6] How do these volunteer experiences benefit professional life and inform personal perspective?

Seleh: In high school, we did a lot of volunteer work. It was part of being in a community. That was one of your obligations as a community member, to help out. It was contributing to your community, doing your part in the community.

My mom was involved in things too. It was part of my life growing up, volunteering. Then in college, the volunteer work was something to put on my resume because I ,wanted to go to medical school. Any profession that I wanted to follow, which at the time was something medical or healthcare related, required volunteer hours.

It was a no-brainer. I wanted to get as much volunteer experience as possible.

5. Jacobsen: You were a student contributor for TruthRevolt. You covered a range of topics such as Students for Justice in Palestine (SJP) Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions Movement (BDS), and anti-semitism.[7],[8],[9],[10],[11],[12],[13],[14],[15],[16],[17],[18],[19],[20],[21],[22],[23],[24],[25],[26],[27],[28] What defines SJP and BDS to you?

Seleh: SJB, Students for Justice in Palestine, and BDS, Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions, are to boycott Israel. It is to try and cripple Israel’s economy. For me, it comes from hatred or fear. Israel is a thriving country. It is doing really well, economically. From many perspectives, it is doing well. Its military is doing well.

Its tourism is doing well. Tourism may be their main income. They also manufacture a lot of products around the world. They also have skilled labour, which is known for technical expertise and inventions.

They are doing well. People feel threatened by that. Whether or not they pose a threat to anybody else, the argument against them is really completely based on their success. The BDS movement is a way to try and hinder their success because that is seen as the main threat.

I don’t think that trying to boycott another country is the best way to cripple their progress because this boycott movement has been going on for a while. It does not get affected by it. It is only affecting the people using it. It only hurts them.

The best way to get over that is for people to invest in their own economies and try and do well themselves. I think that all boycott movements, in my opinion, are a joke. The only person you end up hurting is yourself.

Because there will always being a buyer. When there is a valuable product on the market and in demand, there is always going to be somebody who wants it and to take you business. You will hinder progress by going after consumers and people who want to do business with a country.

Otherwise, it would have worked by now [Laughing]. It would have worked on some level. People say, “It is hurting Israel.” How often do you hear the Israeli Prime Minister going off on the BDS movement?

I can’t recall. From where I’m standing, it doesn’t seem to have an effect on them.

6. Jacobsen: What defines anti-semitism to you – actions and behaviors? 

Seleh: “Anti-Semitism” refers to an innate desire to destroy anyone who makes you feel inferior simply for being, in your eyes, ‘better’ than you, such as in terms of success or morality. It’s a human instinct, and probably everybody has it in them on some level towards the people they feel they have to compete against.

You might not always take action against them, but that feeling is always there until you feel that you no longer feel threatened by it. I’m not saying people hate Jews because Jews are ‘better’ than them- as a Jew, I am in no position to make that statement. But I do suspect “Anti-Semites” feel that way.

References

  1. Campus Reform Staff. (2016, March 4). VIDEO: College students think free handouts are the way to achieve American Dream. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=7354.
  2. Cretella, M.A., Van Meter, Q., & McHugh, P. (2016). Gender Ideology Harms Children. Retrieved from http://www.acpeds.org/the-college-speaks/position-statements/gender-ideology-harms-children.
  3. Legal Information Institute. (n.d.).  First Amendment: Amendment I. Retrieved from https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/first_amendment
  4. LinkedIn. (2016). Pardes Seleh. Retrieved from https://www.linkedin.com/in/pardes-seleh-b5713486.
  5. Seleh, P. (2015, September 25). 11 House Republicans Fight Global Warming, Face Criticism From Other Republicans. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/163/11-house-republicans-fight-global-warming-face-pardes-seleh.
  6. Seleh, P. (2015, November 16). 4-year-old leads chant at UCLA Black Lives Matter walkout. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6998.
  7. Seleh, P. (2015, November 18). An Interview with Anti-Abortion Activist Lila Rose. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1193/interview-anti-abortion-activist-lila-rose-pardes-seleh.
  8. Seleh, P. (2015, November 27). Animal research stirs up controversy at UCLA. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=7036.
  9. Seleh, P. (2016, April 5). Anti-Cop Activists at UCLA Declare “Cop Free Zone”. Retrieved from http://thebruinstandarduc.wix.com/bruinstandard#!AntiCop-Activists-at-UCLA-Declare-Cop-Free-Zone/cjds/570368f30cf2e0dbcac4b721.
  10. Seleh, P. (2015, May 13). Berkeley students protest for cows’ rights on Mother’s Day. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6505.
  11. Seleh, P. (2015, December 1). Brown Students Can Finally Discuss Topics Freely… In a Secret Facebook Group. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1504/brown-students-can-finally-discuss-topics-freely-pardes-seleh.
  12. Seleh, P. (2015, November 16). Cal Berkeley to open minority themed house next fall. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6992.
  13. Seleh, P. (2016, March 3). Calling Out in Kind: Students for Justice in Palestine. Retrieved from http://thebruinstandarduc.wix.com/bruinstandard#!Calling-Out-in-Kind-Students-for-Justice-in-Palestine/cjds/5700eed90cf2b279cdbc97e3.
  14. Seleh, P. (2014, November 24). Congressman Henry Waxman, State Senator Ted W. Lieu, and State Senator-Elect Ben Allen Condemn BDS Vote By UCLA Student Government. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/congressman-henry-waxman-state-senator-ted-w-lieu-and-state-senator-elect-ben-allen-condemn-bds.  
  15. Seleh, P. (2015, September 25). Cubans Not Pope Fans. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/159/cubans-not-pope-fans-pardes-seleh.
  16. Seleh, P. (2015, December 16). Daily Wire Reached Out to Academics Who Ripped ‘Racist’ Scalia. Here’s What They Said.. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1891/daily-wire-reached-out-academics-who-ripped-racist-pardes-seleh.
  17. Seleh, P. (2015, October 1). Featuring the Bernie 2016 Supporter. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/entertainment/223/featuring-bernie-2016-supporter-pardes-seleh.
  18. Seleh, P. (2015, November 4). Feds to Pull $6 Million from School for Not Allowing Boy in Girls’ Showers. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/877/feds-pull-6-million-school-not-allowing-boy-girls-pardes-seleh.
  19. Seleh, P. (2015, August 6). Harvard project tackles ‘gender bias’ in teens, parents. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6710.
  20. Seleh, P. (2015, November 18). Here’s How the Left Manipulates Research to Prove Your Wife is a Lesbian. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1190/heres-how-left-manipulates-research-prove-your-pardes-seleh.
  21. Seleh, P. (2015, September 25). Hillary Says Obamacare Is A ‘Moral Issue’, Americans Disagree. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/158/hillary-says-obamacare-moral-issue-americans-pardes-seleh.
  22. Seleh, P. (2015, November 4). Hillary Wants to Force Employers to Hire Ex-Cons. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/882/hillary-wants-force-employers-hire-ex-cons-pardes-seleh.
  23. Seleh, P. (2015, March 9). Hillel At UCLA Takes Credit For Publicity Of The Rachel Beyda Incident. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/hillel-ucla-takes-credit-publicity-rachel-beyda-incident.
  24. Seleh, P. (2015, October 23). If Radical Islam and Gender Dysphoria Had a Child, It Would Look Like This. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/647/if-radical-islam-and-gender-dysphoria-had-child-it-pardes-seleh.
  25. Seleh, P. (2015, June 26). Illegal immigrant graduate flies Mexican flag at graduation. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6629.
  26. Seleh, P. (2015, September 10). Is a Berkeley student not diverse enough to fight sexual assault?. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6790.
  27. Seleh, P. (2015, July 6). Kinky sex club rises at USC. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6650.
  28. Seleh, P. (2015, October 28). Los Angeles Times Refuses to Reveal Criteria for Reporting Race in Crime Stories. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/732/los-angeles-times-refuses-reveal-criteria-pardes-seleh.
  29. Seleh, P. (2014, November 19). Major UCLA Donor Pledges to Pull Funds If Administration Backs BDS. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/major-ucla-donor-pledges-pull-funds-if-administration-backs-bds.
  30. Seleh, P. (2015, October 17). Media Misrepresent ‘Gay Gene’ Study Without Contacting Lead Author. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/478/media-misrepresent-gay-gene-study-without-pardes-seleh.
  31. Seleh, P. (2015, November 17). Mizzou Administration Refuses To Identify Swastika Pooper. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1183/mizzou-administration-refuses-identify-swastika-pardes-seleh.
  32. Seleh, P. (2015, May 12). Mizzou dining services apologizes for employee’s ‘insensitive’ Cinco de Mayo costume. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6497.
  33. Seleh, P. (2015, November 12). Mizzou Student VP ‘Tired’ of Free Speech. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1079/mizzou-student-vp-tired-free-speech-pardes-seleh.
  34. Seleh, P. (2015, November 3). Momentum Grows on Tarantino Boycott. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/866/boycotting-tarantino-pardes-seleh.
  35. Seleh, P. (2015, October 21). Museum of Tolerance: State Department Responsible for Unfair Coverage of Israel. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/553/museum-tolerance-state-department-responsible-pardes-seleh.
  36. Seleh, P. (2015, September 22). New York Jews Backlash Against Politicians Supporting Iran Deal. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/125/new-york-jews-backlash-against-politicians-pardes-seleh.
  37. Seleh, P. (2015, October 23). NPR: Aborting Female Babies is Discriminatory. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/634/npr-aborting-female-babies-discriminatory-pardes-seleh.
  38. Seleh, P. (2015, October 1). Obama Utterly Silent as Abbas Incites War Against Israel. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/229/obama-utterly-silent-abbas-incites-war-against-pardes-seleh.
  39. Seleh, P. (2015, October 30). Planned Pregnanthood Discriminates Against Trans Men: No Contraceptives Because Male Pregnancy ‘Not Popular’. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/788/planned-pregnanthood-discriminates-against-trans-pardes-seleh.
  40. Seleh, P. (2015, March 10). Pro-Israel Groups At UCLA Address Anti-Semitism While Openly Supporting SJP at UCLA. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/pro-israel-groups-ucla-address-anti-semitism-while-openly-supporting-sjp-ucla.
  41. Seleh, P.  (2016, February 29). Prof. under investigation for sexual assault to continue teaching at UCLA. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=7339.
  42. Seleh, P. (2015, April 15). Professor Tormented At Connecticut College For Criticizing Hamas. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/professor-tormented-connecticut-college-criticizing-hamas.
  43. Seleh, P. (2015, July 22). Protesters at UC Berkeley get nude for trees. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6689.
  44. Seleh, P. (2015, September 22). Republican Congressman Champion for Planned Parenthood. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/123/republican-congressman-champion-planned-parenthood-pardes-seleh.
  45. Seleh, P. (2015, November 24). Satirical ‘White Student Union’ Receives Death Threats for Protesting Anti-White Racism. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1348/white-student-union-receives-death-threats-pardes-seleh.
  46. Seleh, P. (2015, November 20). ‘Scream Queens’ Beats Up Antonin Scalia Physically. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/entertainment/1263/scream-queens-beats-antonin-scalia-physically-pardes-seleh.
  47. Seleh, P. (2015, November 4). Scream Queens: Snotty Sorority Killer Chick’s Dad Supports Ted Cruz. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/entertainment/884/scream-queens-snotty-sorority-killer-chicks-dad-pardes-seleh.
  48. Seleh, P. (2015, April 18). Screening of American Sniper Hotly Contested at UCLA. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/screening-american-sniper-hotly-contested-ucla.
  49. Seleh, P. (2014, November 20). Second UCLA Donor Pledges Funding Cut If Administration Doesn’t Condemn. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/second-ucla-donor-pledges-funding-cut-if-administration-doesnt-condemn-bds.
  50. Seleh, P. (2015, April 8). SFSU President Leslie Wong Bans School-Funded Travel To Indiana. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/sfsu-president-leslie-wong-bans-school-funded-travel-indiana.   
  51. Seleh, P. (2015, October 9). Students from 82 colleges urge Pope Francis to divest Vatican from fossil fuels. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6877.
  52. Seleh, P. (2015). Study: No, There’s No Evidence Of a ‘Gay Gene’
  53. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/445/study-no-theres-no-evidence-gay-gene-pardes-seleh.
  54. Seleh, P. (2015, December 14). The University of Wisconsin Voted On Whether Free Speech Is A Good Thing. Here Are The Results.. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1859/university-wisconsin-voted-whether-free-speech-pardes-seleh.
  55. Seleh, P. (2014, November 21). Third UCLA Donor Pledges to Pull Funds Over BDS. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/third-ucla-donor-pledges-pull-funds-over-bds.
  56. Seleh, P. (2014, November 11). TruthRevolt Students Protest SJP, Supposedly Pro-Israel Groups Undercut. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/truthrevolt-students-protest-sjp-supposedly-pro-israel-groups-undercut.
  57. Seleh, P. (2015, November 8). UC Berkeley Dems to frame GOP as racist during Tuesday’s debate. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6958.
  58. Seleh, P. (2015, November 23). UC Berkeley housing co-op establishes safe space guidelines. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=7022.
  59. Seleh, P. (2015, October 28). UC Berkeley study links economic inequality to climate change. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6930.
  60. Seleh, P. (2015, November 6). UC Files Amicus Brief Supporting Affirmative Action. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/944/uc-files-amicus-brief-supporting-affirmative-pardes-seleh.
  61. Seleh, P. (2015, November 10). UC Merced Attacker Was A Radical Muslim. The University, Police, and Media Covered It Up. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1024/uc-merced-attacker-was-radical-muslim-university-pardes-seleh.
  62. Seleh, P. (2015, April 21). UCLA Activist Over Screening of American Sniper: “Death to America”. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-activist-over-screening-american-sniper-death-america.
  63. Seleh, P. (2015, April 22). UCLA Activist: “What’s Wrong with Death to America???”. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-activist-whats-wrong-death-america.
  64. Seleh, P. (2014, December 11). UCLA Adds Cuba To Its List Of Study Abroad Programs. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-adds-cuba-its-list-study-abroad-programs.
  65. Seleh, P. (2015, March 18). UCLA Chancellor Compares Anti-SJP Posters To Swastikas. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-chancellor-compares-anti-sjp-posters-swastikas.
  66. Seleh, P. (2014, November 24). UCLA Donor Reverses Decision To Pull Funds After Administration Bucks BDSe to Chancellor’s rejection of divestment resolution. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-donor-reverses-decision-pull-funds-after-administration-bucks-bdse-chancellors-rejection.
  67. Seleh, P. (2015, October 23). UCLA institutes faculty ‘bias awareness training’. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6917.
  68. Seleh, P. (2015, March 17). UCLA Newspaper Defends Pro-Terror Student Group. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-newspaper-defends-pro-terror-student-group.
  69. Seleh, P. (2014, December 11). UCLA Professor Under Fire For Exam Question Relating To Ferguson Shooting. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-professor-under-fire-exam-question-relating-ferguson-shooting.  
  70. Seleh, P. (2015, July 13). UCLA provides internship opportunities to illegal immigrants. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6662.
  71. Seleh, P. (2015, February 5). UCLA Republican Students Attacked for Being White. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-republican-students-attacked-being-white.
  72. Seleh, P. (2015, November 11). UCLA Student Council Unanimously Passes Resolution Against Calling SJP ‘Anti-Semitic’. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-student-council-unanimously-passes-resolution-against-calling-sjp-anti-semitic.
  73. Seleh, P. (2015, October 8). UCLA Students Cry Racism Over White Kids Dressing Up As Kim and Kanye. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/324/ucla-students-cry-racism-over-white-kids-dressing-pardes-seleh.
  74. Seleh, P. (2014, September 23). UCLA Students Stand Up To SJP. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-students-stand-sjp.
  75. Seleh, P. (2015, March 10). UCSA Votes To Divest From Gun Companies. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucsa-votes-divest-gun-companies.  
  76. Seleh, P. (2015, December 7). UCSB Administration ‘Triggered’ by White Student Union, to Offer Counseling Services. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1633/ucsb-administration-triggered-white-student-union-pardes-seleh.
  77. Seleh, P. (2015, December 2). UCSB White Student Union Releases ‘List of Demands’. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1519/ucsb-white-student-union-releases-list-demands-pardes-seleh.
  78. Seleh, P. (2016, February 16). Univ. of California selectively recruits Latino and black students. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=7291.
  79. Seleh, P. (2015, September 11). Univ. of Illinois allows 9/11 memorial. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6799.
  80. Seleh, P. (2015, April 23). University Of Maryland Cancels Screening Of American Sniper. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/university-maryland-cancels-screening-american-sniper.
  81. Seleh, P. (2015, October 8). University of Toronto Dumps Transgender Bathrooms After Peeping Incidents. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/330/university-toronto-dumps-transgender-bathrooms-pardes-seleh.
  82. Seleh, P. (2015, February 22). UPDATE: NY Taxi Driver Yells ‘All Jews Must Die’. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/update-ny-taxi-driver-yells-all-jews-must-die.
  83. Seleh, P. (2015, March 25). USAC President Avinoam Baral Blames Netanyahu for BDS. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/usac-president-avinoam-baral-blames-netanyahu-bds.
  84. Seleh, P. (2015, October 8). Victims of Sharia Mandate Respond to Ben Carson’s Comments. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/327/victims-sharia-mandate-respond-ben-carsons-pardes-seleh.
  85. Seleh, P. (2015, May 23). Was a landmark study on gay marriage faked? Looks like it. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6526.
  86. Seleh, P. (2015, September 22). Was McConnell’s Revote on the Iran Deal a Hoax?. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/124/was-mcconnells-revote-iran-deal-hoax-pardes-seleh.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Editor-in-Chief, The Bruin Standard; California Campus Correspondent, Campus Reform; Staff Writer, Daily Wire.

[2] Individual Publication Date: TBD, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com; Full Issue Publication Date: TBD, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com.

[3] Lifeguard Instructor, American Red Cross; Undergraduate Student, Human Biology and Society, University of California, Los Angeles.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Pardes Seleh.

[5] LinkedIn. (2016). Pardes Seleh. Retrieved from https://www.linkedin.com/in/pardes-seleh-b5713486.

[6] Ibid.

[7] Seleh, P. (2014, September 23). UCLA Students Stand Up To SJP. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-students-stand-sjp.

[8] Seleh, P. (2014, November 11). TruthRevolt Students Protest SJP, Supposedly Pro-Israel Groups Undercut. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/truthrevolt-students-protest-sjp-supposedly-pro-israel-groups-undercut.

[9] Seleh, P. (2014, November 19). Major UCLA Donor Pledges to Pull Funds If Administration Backs BDS. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/major-ucla-donor-pledges-pull-funds-if-administration-backs-bds.

[10] Seleh, P. (2014, November 20). Second UCLA Donor Pledges Funding Cut If Administration Doesn’t Condemn. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/second-ucla-donor-pledges-funding-cut-if-administration-doesnt-condemn-bds.

[11] Seleh, P. (2014, November 21). Third UCLA Donor Pledges to Pull Funds Over BDS. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/third-ucla-donor-pledges-pull-funds-over-bds.

[12] Seleh, P. (2014, November 24). Congressman Henry Waxman, State Senator Ted W. Lieu, and State Senator-Elect Ben Allen Condemn BDS Vote By UCLA Student Government. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/congressman-henry-waxman-state-senator-ted-w-lieu-and-state-senator-elect-ben-allen-condemn-bds.

[13] Seleh, P. (2014, November 24). UCLA Donor Reverses Decision To Pull Funds After Administration Bucks BDSe to Chancellor’s rejection of divestment resolution. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-donor-reverses-decision-pull-funds-after-administration-bucks-bdse-chancellors-rejection.

[14] Some of these topics included critiques of Students for Justice in Palestine (SJP) with their calls for an Intifada and calling Israel an apartheid state, or the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions Movement (BDS) in connection with SJP, and funding cuts from donors for UCLA, a Cuba study abroad program, attacks on Republican students for being white based on diversity, ‘all Jews must die’ yelled by a UCLA taxi driver, anti-semitism, divestment from gun companies by UCSA, UCLA student council unanimously passing resolution to condemn anti-semitism from SJP, comparison of SJP posters to swastikas by the UCLA chancellor, blaming Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu for BDS, banning of funding for school-funded travel to Indiana by SFSU president Leslie Wong based on condemnation “of the enactment Religious Freedom Restoration Act,” the “torment” of a Connecticut College professor that criticized Hamas, and a UCLA newspaper that “defends pro-terror student group,” contested screening of American Sniper, Seth Ashernasserpal Newmeyer’s call for “death to America,” and the cancellation of American Sniper at the University of Maryland.

[15] Seleh, P. (2014, December 11). UCLA Professor Under Fire For Exam Question Relating To Ferguson Shooting. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-professor-under-fire-exam-question-relating-ferguson-shooting.

[16] Seleh, P. (2014, December 11). UCLA Adds Cuba To Its List Of Study Abroad Programs. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-adds-cuba-its-list-study-abroad-programs.

[17] Seleh, P. (2015, February 5). UCLA Republican Students Attacked for Being White. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-republican-students-attacked-being-white.

[18] Seleh, P. (2015, February 22). UPDATE: NY Taxi Driver Yells ‘All Jews Must Die’. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/update-ny-taxi-driver-yells-all-jews-must-die.

[19] Seleh, P. (2015, March 9). Hillel At UCLA Takes Credit For Publicity Of The Rachel Beyda Incident. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/hillel-ucla-takes-credit-publicity-rachel-beyda-incident.

[20] Seleh, P. (2015, March 10). Pro-Israel Groups At UCLA Address Anti-Semitism While Openly Supporting SJP At UCLA. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/pro-israel-groups-ucla-address-anti-semitism-while-openly-supporting-sjp-ucla.

[21] Seleh, P. (2015, March 10). UCSA Votes To Divest From Gun Companies. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucsa-votes-divest-gun-companies.

[22] Seleh, P. (2015, November 11). UCLA Student Council Unanimously Passes Resolution Against Calling SJP ‘Anti-Semitic’. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-student-council-unanimously-passes-resolution-against-calling-sjp-anti-semitic.

[23] Seleh, P. (2015, March 18). UCLA Chancellor Compares Anti-SJP Posters To Swastikas. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-chancellor-compares-anti-sjp-posters-swastikas.

[24] Seleh, P. (2015, March 23). SJP At UCLA: SJP Not Anti-Semitic. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/sjp-ucla-sjp-not-anti-semitic.

[25] Seleh, P. (2015, March 25). USAC President Avinoam Baral Blames Netanyahu for BDS. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/usac-president-avinoam-baral-blames-netanyahu-bds.

[26] Seleh, P. (2015, April 8). SFSU President Leslie Wong Bans School-Funded Travel To Indiana. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/sfsu-president-leslie-wong-bans-school-funded-travel-indiana.

[27] Seleh, P. (2015, April 15). Professor Tormented At Connecticut College For Criticizing Hamas. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/professor-tormented-connecticut-college-criticizing-hamas.

[28] Seleh, P. (2015, March 17). UCLA Newspaper Defends Pro-Terror Student Group. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-newspaper-defends-pro-terror-student-group.  

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Three) [Online].October 2017; 15(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-three.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, November 1). An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Three). Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-three.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Three). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A, October. 2017. <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-three>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-three.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A (October 2017). www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-three.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 15.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-three>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 15.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-three.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 15.A (2017):October. 2017. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-three>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Three) [Internet]. (2017, October; 15(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-three.

License and Copyright

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In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2017-10-22

An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Two)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 15.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Eleven)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: October 22, 2017

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,314

ISSN 2369-6885

Pardes Seleh

Abstract

An Interview with Pardes Seleh, B.S. She discusses: definition of God; God and family; bigotry and prejudice; the reverse perspective on it; and assuming knowledge.

Keywords: Campus Reform, Daily Wire, Independent Journal Review, Pardes Seleh, The Bruin Standard.

An Interview with Pardes Seleh, B.S.: Former Writer, Independent Journal Review; Former Staff Writer, Daily Wire; Former Editor-in-Chief, The Bruin Standard; Former California Campus Correspondent, Campus Reform (Part Two)

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been edited for clarity and readability.*​

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: You mentioned not following Orthodox Judaism at the moment. I imagine, though, the conceptualizations are the same or similar for you. What defines God to you?

Pardes Seleh: It depends on your definition of an Orthodox Jew. I do not practice it. In that, I do not believe in it as something for myself. I am having trouble with a lot of the core thinking. Most people will tell you Orthodox Judaism is defined by two things mainly. One is to keep Shabbat and the other is to keep Kosher. If you keep those two things, people will say you are an Orthodox Jew.

Some mean not using electricity. Somebody who doesn’t work, keeps Kosher always (never eats pork, and so on). There are so many laws associated with Shabbat and Kosher. When you’re Orthodox, you’ll likely only eat at a Kosher restaurant. That is a restaurant that has a Kosher certification that is defined by a Kosher certifying agency, like the OU.

In California, we have the Rabbinic Authority of California. In DC, it is something else for Greater Washington. There are different ones in different states, different Rabbinic councils. it is another way of saying that the two main qualifiers for Orthodox Judaism are eating Kosher and keeping Shabbat and also being Jewish means that your mother is Jewish, according to Orthodox Judaism.

2. Jacobsen: You mentioned God and family. What makes for stability and family structure? Does gender-specific schooling assist in this more than non-gender-specific schooling?

Seleh: I think so. I think for me it did. Being in a gender-specific school, it was just easier. We didn’t have the kind of problems that I would hear people say from public schools. We were all girls. We didn’t have to get makeup or our hair done to impress boys. We had a uniform. We all looked pretty much identical. We had to wear basically the same colored shoes and tights, navy blue skirts, and also the school had a uniform sal every year.

I benefitted a lot from the discipline. We had a lot of rules in our school growing up. In the Orthodox school I went to, so the rules at home, in community, in school, it does lead to a very disciplined lifestyle.

3. Jacobsen: Some might stereotype the isolationist community philosophy. From this, individuals from the isolated community might experience bigotry and prejudice. Any bigotry and prejudice experienced based on it?

Seleh: Even though now I am living in a more pluralistic community, I don’t mind the sense of the community, but I can see why some people may described it as bigotry and them as bigoted because in any isolationist community they are trying to keep outsiders out and their followers in. Music is harmful. The internet is harmful. Cable television is harmful. Secular literature is harmful. Anything that is not from the culture and community, the isolated one, is unnecessary contamination for them.

For them, it is a means of protecting themselves for what they see as a threat to their community structure. If it didn’t work that way, they wouldn’t exist. You could say it is bigotry, but I don’t think it is. I only say “bigotry” to speak in secular terms. It is setting up a wall. Their isolationism makes it so that their propaganda is not directed at anyone else except those inside the community.

So, anyone reacting to it is not being affected it because someone inside the community is reaching out and trying to harm them. Anyone affected negatively affected by someone in the community used to be part of the community and so have negative feelings about it, or they are engaging with those types of community members closely.

It is highly unlikely that if you have nothing to do with the community that they’ll have a negative effect on you. They are not spreading their protectionist views to those outside of the community. It is only meant for those ears inside of their own bubble. Anyone outside of the bubble should not be negatively affected by it. That’s why I don’t like to call it bigotry.

4. Jacobsen: The question that I had in mind was the reverse perspective. Not people outside of the community and looking in, seeing it as bigoted or oppressive, but someone in the isolationist community coming out of it and experiencing secular culture and then experiencing bigotry/prejudice from the secular culture, e.g., passive aggressive comments, inappropriate jokes, and so on, about the community that you grew up in.

Seleh: Someone like myself. I don’t believe in bigotry myself. They both do it. People in the bubble. People inside of it. Even outside of that bubble, there are bubbles within the secular world too. There will be negative comments from both sides from people who see me as too secular and others who see me as too much the product of my religious upbringing.

It is a lack of understanding on their part. Maybe, they don’t know my life well enough; maybe, they feel threatened by some views that I hold. I don’t see one side. Do I think people show bigotry because I grew up in a religious community? I do think people make negative comments, but, for me, they sound the same as the type of comments that would come out of the isolationist community in reverse. They are reactive comments.

“They are a threat to our culture.” It is a kind of culture war. They will direct them at me, when they do I think that they don’t understand my upbringing. Maybe, they don’t know where I am at. Maybe, they don’t want to see the nuances. There are so many different levels in others. It is not as black-and-white. In the isolationist community, there are different levels; that was one type of isolationist community.

The Orthodox community can be isolationist. The one in New York is another type. It is as much as the letter of the Law as the one I grew up in. I think there are all kinds of isolationist communities. In the political world, there are isolationists. Many conservatives and progressives are isolationist. I guess anyone who doesn’t want to allow themselves to be exposed to other views or lifestyles might be viewed as an isolationist.

Thinking that you can be harmed, that your lifestyle and views are in danger by simply being exposed to another lifestyle or view. It is all of the same concept. It is all the same kind of attitude; no matter the community that you’re a part of.

5. Jacobsen: It also might be a situation where you can ask the question, “Do you know my middle name?” They wouldn’t know. So, it would be extraordinarily myopic in terms of their knowledge about your own individual experience. They would assume to know so much about you. Yet, they probably couldn’t even name your middle name, as a case in point.

Seleh: There’s a saying in Farsi. My mom would say it to me all of the time: “Those who know, know and ask; those who don’t know, don’t knowand don’t ask.” If you feel secure in your own knowledge of things, then you don’t feel threated by asking more questions and wanting to know more. There are so many things to say off about that [Laughing].

My parents, despite having been raised in a very Orthodox community, bring a different perspective. In the home, they always encouraged us to know as much about the world as possible. They tried to keep us exposed to as many countries as much. We didn’t travel an insane amount, but we travel a decent amount. They wanted us to explore as much as possible.

So, I think we definitely have those values, even though we were not in an educational system that was not much into exploring. The idea of people who don’t know and don’t ask. I think it is not about how much you know, but about how much you want to know. People who are smart are generally people who are always learning more about new things.

There is never a cap to how much you can know about anything. There is always more to learn. When you set a standard for yourself, and a task for yourself, and you think you already know you think it is that you need know, you don’t think you need to be exposed to any information outside of what you know. As an individual, you think that you know everything.

You are setting yourself up for a disaster because of people outside your world. The knowledge outside of the bubble is big and growing. When you have a definite number next to infinity, it becomes zero because infinity can go on forever and that number simply shrinks smaller and smaller. If infinity reaches infinity [Laughing], then your definite number becomes so infinitely small that it [Laughing] might not reach zero, but it becomes almost zero.

There’s my humble philosophical thought for the day.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Seleh: Like my mom said, always ask questions, I think it’s my mom’s fault that I am like this [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

References

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  24. Seleh, P. (2015, October 23). If Radical Islam and Gender Dysphoria Had a Child, It Would Look Like This. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/647/if-radical-islam-and-gender-dysphoria-had-child-it-pardes-seleh.
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  28. Seleh, P. (2015, October 28). Los Angeles Times Refuses to Reveal Criteria for Reporting Race in Crime Stories. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/732/los-angeles-times-refuses-reveal-criteria-pardes-seleh.
  29. Seleh, P. (2014, November 19). Major UCLA Donor Pledges to Pull Funds If Administration Backs BDS. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/major-ucla-donor-pledges-pull-funds-if-administration-backs-bds.
  30. Seleh, P. (2015, October 17). Media Misrepresent ‘Gay Gene’ Study Without Contacting Lead Author. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/478/media-misrepresent-gay-gene-study-without-pardes-seleh.
  31. Seleh, P. (2015, November 17). Mizzou Administration Refuses To Identify Swastika Pooper. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1183/mizzou-administration-refuses-identify-swastika-pardes-seleh.
  32. Seleh, P. (2015, May 12). Mizzou dining services apologizes for employee’s ‘insensitive’ Cinco de Mayo costume. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6497.
  33. Seleh, P. (2015, November 12). Mizzou Student VP ‘Tired’ of Free Speech. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1079/mizzou-student-vp-tired-free-speech-pardes-seleh.
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  44. Seleh, P. (2015, September 22). Republican Congressman Champion for Planned Parenthood. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/123/republican-congressman-champion-planned-parenthood-pardes-seleh.
  45. Seleh, P. (2015, November 24). Satirical ‘White Student Union’ Receives Death Threats for Protesting Anti-White Racism. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1348/white-student-union-receives-death-threats-pardes-seleh.
  46. Seleh, P. (2015, November 20). ‘Scream Queens’ Beats Up Antonin Scalia Physically. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/entertainment/1263/scream-queens-beats-antonin-scalia-physically-pardes-seleh.
  47. Seleh, P. (2015, November 4). Scream Queens: Snotty Sorority Killer Chick’s Dad Supports Ted Cruz. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/entertainment/884/scream-queens-snotty-sorority-killer-chicks-dad-pardes-seleh.
  48. Seleh, P. (2015, April 18). Screening of American Sniper Hotly Contested at UCLA. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/screening-american-sniper-hotly-contested-ucla.
  49. Seleh, P. (2014, November 20). Second UCLA Donor Pledges Funding Cut If Administration Doesn’t Condemn. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/second-ucla-donor-pledges-funding-cut-if-administration-doesnt-condemn-bds.
  50. Seleh, P. (2015, April 8). SFSU President Leslie Wong Bans School-Funded Travel To Indiana. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/sfsu-president-leslie-wong-bans-school-funded-travel-indiana.   
  51. Seleh, P. (2015, October 9). Students from 82 colleges urge Pope Francis to divest Vatican from fossil fuels. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6877.
  52. Seleh, P. (2015). Study: No, There’s No Evidence Of a ‘Gay Gene’
  53. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/445/study-no-theres-no-evidence-gay-gene-pardes-seleh.
  54. Seleh, P. (2015, December 14). The University of Wisconsin Voted On Whether Free Speech Is A Good Thing. Here Are The Results.. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1859/university-wisconsin-voted-whether-free-speech-pardes-seleh.
  55. Seleh, P. (2014, November 21). Third UCLA Donor Pledges to Pull Funds Over BDS. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/third-ucla-donor-pledges-pull-funds-over-bds.
  56. Seleh, P. (2014, November 11). TruthRevolt Students Protest SJP, Supposedly Pro-Israel Groups Undercut. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/truthrevolt-students-protest-sjp-supposedly-pro-israel-groups-undercut.
  57. Seleh, P. (2015, November 8). UC Berkeley Dems to frame GOP as racist during Tuesday’s debate. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6958.
  58. Seleh, P. (2015, November 23). UC Berkeley housing co-op establishes safe space guidelines. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=7022.
  59. Seleh, P. (2015, October 28). UC Berkeley study links economic inequality to climate change. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6930.
  60. Seleh, P. (2015, November 6). UC Files Amicus Brief Supporting Affirmative Action. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/944/uc-files-amicus-brief-supporting-affirmative-pardes-seleh.
  61. Seleh, P. (2015, November 10). UC Merced Attacker Was A Radical Muslim. The University, Police, and Media Covered It Up. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1024/uc-merced-attacker-was-radical-muslim-university-pardes-seleh.
  62. Seleh, P. (2015, April 21). UCLA Activist Over Screening of American Sniper: “Death to America”. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-activist-over-screening-american-sniper-death-america.
  63. Seleh, P. (2015, April 22). UCLA Activist: “What’s Wrong with Death to America???”. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-activist-whats-wrong-death-america.
  64. Seleh, P. (2014, December 11). UCLA Adds Cuba To Its List Of Study Abroad Programs. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-adds-cuba-its-list-study-abroad-programs.
  65. Seleh, P. (2015, March 18). UCLA Chancellor Compares Anti-SJP Posters To Swastikas. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-chancellor-compares-anti-sjp-posters-swastikas.
  66. Seleh, P. (2014, November 24). UCLA Donor Reverses Decision To Pull Funds After Administration Bucks BDSe to Chancellor’s rejection of divestment resolution. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-donor-reverses-decision-pull-funds-after-administration-bucks-bdse-chancellors-rejection.
  67. Seleh, P. (2015, October 23). UCLA institutes faculty ‘bias awareness training’. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6917.
  68. Seleh, P. (2015, March 17). UCLA Newspaper Defends Pro-Terror Student Group. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-newspaper-defends-pro-terror-student-group.
  69. Seleh, P. (2014, December 11). UCLA Professor Under Fire For Exam Question Relating To Ferguson Shooting. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-professor-under-fire-exam-question-relating-ferguson-shooting.  
  70. Seleh, P. (2015, July 13). UCLA provides internship opportunities to illegal immigrants. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6662.
  71. Seleh, P. (2015, February 5). UCLA Republican Students Attacked for Being White. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-republican-students-attacked-being-white.
  72. Seleh, P. (2015, November 11). UCLA Student Council Unanimously Passes Resolution Against Calling SJP ‘Anti-Semitic’. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-student-council-unanimously-passes-resolution-against-calling-sjp-anti-semitic.
  73. Seleh, P. (2015, October 8). UCLA Students Cry Racism Over White Kids Dressing Up As Kim and Kanye. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/324/ucla-students-cry-racism-over-white-kids-dressing-pardes-seleh.
  74. Seleh, P. (2014, September 23). UCLA Students Stand Up To SJP. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-students-stand-sjp.
  75. Seleh, P. (2015, March 10). UCSA Votes To Divest From Gun Companies. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucsa-votes-divest-gun-companies.  
  76. Seleh, P. (2015, December 7). UCSB Administration ‘Triggered’ by White Student Union, to Offer Counseling Services. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1633/ucsb-administration-triggered-white-student-union-pardes-seleh.
  77. Seleh, P. (2015, December 2). UCSB White Student Union Releases ‘List of Demands’. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1519/ucsb-white-student-union-releases-list-demands-pardes-seleh.
  78. Seleh, P. (2016, February 16). Univ. of California selectively recruits Latino and black students. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=7291.
  79. Seleh, P. (2015, September 11). Univ. of Illinois allows 9/11 memorial. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6799.
  80. Seleh, P. (2015, April 23). University Of Maryland Cancels Screening Of American Sniper. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/university-maryland-cancels-screening-american-sniper.
  81. Seleh, P. (2015, October 8). University of Toronto Dumps Transgender Bathrooms After Peeping Incidents. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/330/university-toronto-dumps-transgender-bathrooms-pardes-seleh.
  82. Seleh, P. (2015, February 22). UPDATE: NY Taxi Driver Yells ‘All Jews Must Die’. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/update-ny-taxi-driver-yells-all-jews-must-die.
  83. Seleh, P. (2015, March 25). USAC President Avinoam Baral Blames Netanyahu for BDS. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/usac-president-avinoam-baral-blames-netanyahu-bds.
  84. Seleh, P. (2015, October 8). Victims of Sharia Mandate Respond to Ben Carson’s Comments. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/327/victims-sharia-mandate-respond-ben-carsons-pardes-seleh.
  85. Seleh, P. (2015, May 23). Was a landmark study on gay marriage faked? Looks like it. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6526.
  86. Seleh, P. (2015, September 22). Was McConnell’s Revote on the Iran Deal a Hoax?. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/124/was-mcconnells-revote-iran-deal-hoax-pardes-seleh.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Former Writer, Independent Journal Review; Former Staff Writer, Daily Wire; Former Editor-in-Chief, The Bruin Standard; Former California Campus Correspondent, Campus Reform.

[2] Individual Publication Date: October 22, 2017 at www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-one; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2018 at www.in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Santa Monica College (2012-2014); B.S. (2014-2016), Human Biology and Society, University of California, Los Angeles; Lifeguard Instructor, American Red Cross.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Pardes Seleh.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Two) [Online].October 2017; 15(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-b-s-part-two.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, October 22). An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Two). Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-b-s-part-two.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A, October. 2017. <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-b-s-part-two>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-b-s-part-two.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A (October 2017). www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-b-s-part-two.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 15.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-b-s-part-two>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 15.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-b-s-part-two.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 15.A (2017):October. 2017. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-b-s-part-two>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part Two)[Internet]. (2017, October; 15(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-b-s-part-two.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2017-10-15

An Interview with Patricia Grell, B.Sc., M.Div.

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 15.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Nine)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: October 15, 2017

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,457

ISSN 2369-6885

Patricia Smiling

Abstract

An Interview with Patricia Grell. She discusses influence of religion on upbringing; similar experiences for other Christians; the different experiences for men and women in the Catholic Church; biggest negative of the Catholic Church in Canada; biggest positive of the Catholic Church in Canada; and current relationship with the school board.

Keywords: Catholic, Edmonton, Patricia Grell, Trustee.

An Interview with Patricia Grell, B.Sc., M.Div.: Trustee, Edmonton Catholic School Board (Ward 71)[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been edited for clarity and readability.*​

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, what was the influence of religion on your own upbringing?

Patricia Grell: It was everything. I was born and raised in a Catholic family going to church every Sunday.  If you missed going to church it was considered a mortal sin. Both my parents were Catholic and many of my relatives were priests or in religious life.  Even my mother considered religious life and entered the novitiate.  When I was studying my MDiv at St. Michael’s College, Toronto School of Theology, there were three of us from the same family there!

So, my whole life, a way of thinking, worldview was governed by Catholicism. I remember thinking that God had a plan for my life that I had to figure out. It was very much impressed upon me that I was to make the world a better place, to serve God and bring others into a relationship with Christ.

2. Jacobsen: Do you think this is a similar experience for those – as you are in Alberta growing up – in the Anglican, Lutheran, Eastern Orthodox (all orthodoxies, e.g. Russian, Ukrainian, Greek, and so on) – in other churches at their own experienced reflections on the Christian church?

Grell: Maybe; I think there are more parallels between Catholicism and Mormonism. In both faiths, it’s important that you marry someone of the same faith, that you raise your children in that faith, and that you attend the schools and universities that the faiths sponsor.

I think it’s a little different with people of other Christian denominations.  I think they are a bit more open-minded about marrying outside their faith and raising their children outside of their specific faith.

I’m an older Catholic so maybe younger Catholics wouldn’t say this, but for my generation staying close to the faith was highly valued.

3. Jacobsen: Do you think that the experience for men in the Roman Catholic Church is different than for women? If so, how?

Grell: Absolutely. Men don’t see how women experience the church as misogynist. Men will ask “Why do women need to be ordained? Women can serve in so many ways in the church other than as priests.”  But this is insulting to women because by denying women ordination, the church keeps women out of every position of power in the church.

When I worked in Northern Ontario I saw women religious running parishes as administrators in remote communities because there were not enough priests.  In these communities, they performed many of the duties of a priest such as presiding at baptisms, marriages, and funerals.  Once a month a priest would celebrate mass and consecrate enough hosts to last until his next visit the following month.  The nun would then lead Liturgy of the Word with Communion which is basically mass but without the consecration.  So women were called upon to be leaders when the church was desperate.

But here in Edmonton, where there also is a shortage of priests, the archbishop decided to close parishes instead of permit lay women (or lay men) for that matter, to be parish administrators.

So, the archbishop closed our parish and split up a wonderful community of people who had been together for over 50 years. Many were heartbroken and many stopped attending church altogether.  As a woman with a MDiv., it was hard to watch this happen in the interest of keeping celibate men in positions of power.

Women are good enough to run parishes in remote Northern communities but not here in Edmonton.  [Laughing].

4. Jacobsen: You’re an educated person, so you’re giving an articulate answer. I appreciate it.

Grell: [Laughing] But I think it’s easy for men to belong to a church when they see themselves on the altar. They see themselves making decisions in positions like the bishop or the Cardinals, but it’s very hard for a woman. I did hope that one day that would change, but it’s not going to happen [Laughing]…anytime in the next 500 years.

5. Jacobsen: What do you consider the biggest negative of the church in this country, in Canada?

Grell: Wow!  Which one do I pick?

6. Jacobsen: [Laughing] it’s very funny.

Grell: The main thing is their stance on the LGBTQ community.  The Catechism of The Catholic Church is very insulting to gay people when it states that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered, are acts of great depravity and cannot ever be approved.  Pope Francis has also been very unkind in his comments directed toward the transgender community in encyclical Laudato Si.  He says that transgender people need to accept the body God gave them and that we cannot choose our gender.  This is a simplistic answer to a very complex issue.

And how many times I have heard priests quote Genesis that “male and female God made them” referring to God creating only 2 genders.  Then what about hermaphrodites? There are biological gray areas in gender and so it’s very likely there are also psychological gray areas as well.

It’s hard for me to watch such supposedly educated people as Pope Francis and the church hierarchy with degrees in Theology, choose a very simplistic, uninformed, unscientific approach to something very complex as gender identity.

I think that’s the biggest thing that I can see creating discord between secular society and the Catholic faith – it’s the total lack of openness to research, scientific study, or even “Googling it”.  There are doctors who specialize in working with transgender people – has the hierarchy ever contacted them?

So the biggest issue I think today is the total disconnect between the church and science

7. Jacobsen: What do you consider the biggest positive in this country?

Grell: With Catholicism?

8. Jacobsen: Yes, ma’am.

Grell: Biggest positives… boy! I’m hard-pressed.  I guess the positives are reading about people like Father James Martin, SJ who recently published a book called Building a Bridge:  How the Catholic Church and the LGBTQ Community Can Enter Into a Relationship of Respect, Compassion and Sensitivity. He is a brave man who has experienced a lot of pushback from members of the church as well as the hierarchy.  But he is pressing on because he knows it’s important for the Church to stop persecuting this community with its lack of understanding.

Other positives are people like Dorothy Day who served the poor and put to shame the Catholic church leaders of her day who lived in opulence.

Fr. Henri Nouwen is another – he was a priest who wrote many books in which he shared his spiritual and internal struggles.  He was a very authentic person who tried hard to live his spirituality authentic to the Gospel.  After he died it was revealed that he was gay and struggled greatly with his sexual orientation.

So, I guess these people in the Church are the positives – the people who show me how to live the Gospel authentically [Laughing], not so much the hierarchy.

9. Jacobsen: How did you find yourself where you are now in terms of the relationship with the school board or system?

Grell: I would say it all started by taking a degree in theology from St. Michael’s College, Toronto School of Theology.  I am eternally grateful to my professors because they taught me that I didn’t have to put my intellect on hold to have a faith in Jesus and follow Jesus. St. Michael’s College took a historical-critical approach to the Bible, not a literal approach, and an intellectual ‘faith seeking understanding’ approach.

So I came out of university with an intellectual understanding of my faith.  I brought a deep understanding of the historical Jesus and his message everywhere I went. I worked as a Pastoral Associate in a parish in Timmins, as a Program Coordinator in a retreat center and then as a Catholic school trustee.  Each place I worked, I got a glimpse into the Catholic Church behind the scenes and I became more and more scandalized.  [Laughing]. I was scandalized because deep down I had this understanding of the Gospel that was very rooted in the historical Jesus.  And then I would see nuns, priests and so-called devout Catholics not living at all according to the Gospel.

I heard, for example, the archbishop’s representative state to the Board that perhaps Catholic schools are not the place for transgender students.  I saw the school district with the support of the archbishop, deny a transgender girl access to the girls’ washroom, insisting she uses the gender-neutral washroom on the other side of the school.  I saw the resistance by the church to allow GSAs.  All these things led me to conclude that the church had lost its way.

I think working in the school district was the ‘watershed moment,’ where I realized that “Wow! This is a social club. This is not a faith.” These people act as though they belong to a bike club or dance club. They are not together because of their faith in Jesus and his message of love, acceptance, and mercy.  Catholicism, I concluded, had become a social club.

I thought this is not where I can be anymore. I can’t be here. They’re not living what they’re talking about. It’s all window dressing. That’s how it is; it’s all window dressing. We’d have signs in our schools, for example, that state ‘Christ is the reason for this school’ and then we’d go on our merry way and do things that totally contradicted this.

For example, we have an academic high school that requires students to get a 75% average in grade 9 in order to be accepted.  If a Catholic student who lives near this school misses the mark by even 1%, they are not admitted. This student then can’t attend high school with their friends and must travel outside their community because the district can’t make any exceptions for fear of lowering the standards of the school.  To add insult to injury, the academic school will offer any vacant spots to non-Catholic students who do achieve the required average.  The lack of compassion and mercy in the interest of competitiveness seems to fly in the face of “Christ is the reason for this school”.

Another example is the denial of attendance at grad ceremonies if students don’t complete the required amount of the religion curriculum by a particular date.  The School Act in Alberta does not require completion of religion credits in order to earn a high school diploma.  The district then uses attendance at grad ceremonies as the carrot to ensure students complete their religion credits.  It seems odd to me to use coercion as a way to encourage students to learn about Jesus.

I would think that if our Catholic schools were teaching by example, and living according to the Gospel then we wouldn’t have to coerce anybody to take religion; students would want to take religion. They would want to learn about this rebel named Jesus. Teenagers are rebellious anyway! [Laughing]. I think they would really think he’s pretty cool if they could learn about who he was and what he stood for.  You don’t have to coerce someone by saying you must take this or we’re not going to let you come to grad. What kind of example is that? What are we trying to do here?” One of the moms who had a son in high school last year and was concerned about this grad rule, said, “Geez, with the legacy of residential schools, you would think that they wouldn’t be interested in coercing people to take religion through Catholic schools.”

These are publicly funded schools.  I’d rather try to invite kids to be interested in the faith by our example of love and compassion rather than coercion.  We can invite students to learn about our faith by being merciful people.  Students will be attracted to that [Laughing]. So that’s the kind of stuff – that really…I just was disappointed, I was heartbroken… literally heartbroken to see people acting this way in the name of Christ [Sobbing] I’m sorry.

10. Jacobsen: It’s okay.

Grell: [Sobbing/weeping] I guess…I’m still grieving.

11. Jacobsen: It’s okay. Take the time you need.

Grell: It really upset me that we had schools for elite students.  Parents came to a Board meeting when I put forward a motion to request the district make exceptions for Catholic students, to show some mercy and these parents said: “We want our kids to get ready for this competitive world.” I thought, “That isn’t what I thought Christianity or Catholicism was about,” competition.

Anyway, it’s really broken my heart. I’m an honest person. I couldn’t run again to be a Catholic trustee, I might run one day to be a public-school trustee, but I couldn’t in good conscience put my name on that ballot and say, “Yeah, I’m a Catholic school trustee. I want to be a Catholic school trustee.”

No, I don’t want anything to do with this Catholic Church; if Catholic means being like this, sorry, not interested. That’s not what I learned about and learned what Jesus was about at all. So, I must distance myself. Anyway, sorry I got emotional. I guess I didn’t realize I was still this upset. But we’re not then I heard that priest say that our Catholic schools were not for transgender kids, I thought, “That’s it. That’s the last straw.” If that’s what they’re about, I am NOT interested in this church.

I have invested a lot of my life in the Catholic Church; I spent a lot of money on my education. Fifty thousand dollars to get a MDiv. We used to pray for laypeople to come forward in service to the Church. Then I noticed they stopped praying for that. They started praying again for more vocations to religious life and more priests. I remember I saw this shift happening around 1992.  Prior to this, there was a great push to have more lay people educated in theology so they could take leadership roles in the church.  But that approach seems to have fallen by the wayside.

I have spoken with other women, who have left the church and I agree with them when they say:  “I didn’t leave the church, the church left me”.

References

  1. Baklinski, P. (2015, October 2). Alberta Catholic school board prepares to pass extreme transgender policy, defying archbishop’s recommendations. Retrieved from https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/alberta-catholic-school-board-prepares-to-pass-extreme-transgender-policy-d.
  2. Baklinski, P. (2016, January 19). Alberta’s Catholic schools face ‘watershed moment’ as trustees defy the bishops on gender policies: priest. Retrieved from https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/alberta-catholic-ed.-admins-openly-defy-bishops-condemnation-of-ndps-gender.
  3. Barsotti, N. (2016, April 18). Why two Catholic school trustees want stronger LGBT policy. Retrieved from https://www.dailyxtra.com/why-two-catholic-school-trustees-want-stronger-lgbt-policy-70738.
  4. Bartko, K. (2017, September 20). ‘The system is corrupt’: Edmonton trustee calls for merger of public, Catholic school boards. Retrieved from https://globalnews.ca/news/3758770/the-system-is-corrupt-edmonton-trustee-calls-for-merger-of-public-catholic-school-boards/.
  5. CBC News. (2016, January 17). Catholic parents question trustees over Calgary bishop’s ‘homophobic’ letter. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/catholic-parents-question-trustees-over-calgary-bishop-s-homophobic-letter-1.3407874.
  6. CBC News. (2014, March 18). Closure of 4 Edmonton Catholic schools takes a step forward. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/closure-of-4-edmonton-catholic-schools-takes-a-step-forward-1.2577725.
  7. CBC News. (2016, May 15). Edmonton Catholic trustees pass ‘inclusive’ policy for schools. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/edmonton-catholic-trustees-pass-inclusive-policy-for-schools-1.3493257.
  8. CBC News. (2015, May 16). Patricia Grell, trustee who supports transgender girl, may face sanctions. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/patricia-grell-trustee-who-supports-transgender-girl-may-face-sanctions-1.3076865.
  9. CBC News. (2015, May 18). Transgender girl’s mother begs Catholic school board not to punish trustee. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/transgender-girl-s-mother-begs-catholic-school-board-not-to-punish-trustee-1.3078399.
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  37. Theobald, C. (2016, January 12). Edmonton Catholic School Board votes to put St. John school up for sale. Retrieved from http://www.edmontonsun.com/2016/01/12/edmonton-catholic-school-board-votes-to-put-st-john-school-up-for-sale.
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Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Trusted, Edmonton Catholic School Board (Ward 71).

[2] Individual Publication Date: October 15, 2017 at www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patricia-grell; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2018 at www.in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3]Bachelor of Science, St. Michael’s College, University of Toronto; Master of Divinity, St. Michael’s College Faculty of Theology, Toronto School of Theology., University of Toronto.

[4] Individual Publication Date: October 15, 2017 at www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patricia-grell; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2018 at www.in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Patricia Grell [Online].October 2017; 15(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patricia-grell.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, October 15). An Interview with Patricia Grell. Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patricia-grell.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Patricia Grell. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A, October. 2017. <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patricia-grell>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with Patricia Grell.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patricia-grell

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Patricia Grell.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A (October 2017). www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patricia-grell.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Patricia Grell‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 15.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patricia-grell>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Patricia Grell‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 15.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patricia-grell.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Patricia Grell.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 15.A (2017):October. 2017. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patricia-grell>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Patricia Grell [Internet]. (2017, October; 15(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patricia-grell.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2 Comments
2017-10-08

An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part One)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 15.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Eleven)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: October 8, 2017

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,729

ISSN 2369-6885

Pardes Seleh

Abstract

An Interview with Pardes Seleh, B.S. She discusses: linguistics, geographic, and cultural family background; daily life for parents in Iran; core values of Orthodox Judaism; false claims about values of Orthodox Judaism; family background influence of personal development; definition of God; and stability and family structure.

Keywords: Campus Reform, Daily Wire, Independent Journal Review, Pardes Seleh, The Bruin Standard.

An Interview with Pardes Seleh, B.S.: Former Writer, Independent Journal Review; Former Staff Writer, Daily Wire; Former Editor-in-Chief, The Bruin Standard; Former California Campus Correspondent, Campus Reform (Part One)

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been edited for clarity and readability.*​

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: In terms of geography, culture, and language, where does your familial background reside?

Pardes Seleh: My parents emigrated from the Islamic Republic of Iran to Los Angeles, California by way of Vienna, Austria in the 1980’s. My four siblings and I were raised speaking English and Farsi at home, and Hebrew and Spanish in school. We practice Orthodox Judaism.

2. Jacobsen: In the Islamic Republic of Iran, for your parents, what was daily life?

Seleh: From what they described, they both had very different lives, but they both lived in Tehran. They described it as very different from what it was like before the Revolution. It was more westernized. They went to cinemas. That was popular. Fashion was trending. Post-Revolution, there were different school systems and curricula being introduced for students.

Boys were being drafted into the army during The Gulf War. Their lives changed after it. It was then a question of when and how the children would be able to step out, when the parents would be able to send their children out of the country, e.g. avoid being drafted, be able to go to university outside of the country, and so on.   

3. Jacobsen: What was the age kids were drafted?

Seleh: I believe 18-years-old. My father said as early as 13-years-old. In his school, they were taught to shoot. They have training for the army. All of the boys did, at his age. I don’t remember what age he said he was. The kids were taught at a young age. My mom was really young when it started. Her school, they had regular daily songs, which kids would sing. It would be songs that were anti-Shah and anti-United States. It was down with the USA, the “Great Satan,” and down with the Shah.

They both lived in Vienna first. You couldn’t get a visa to the US from Iran. They went to Vienna and got a visa from Vienna and moved from Austria to Los Angeles after that.

4. Jacobsen: What was their description of life comparing time in Iran and living in Vienna and in Los Angeles?

Seleh: They said it was simpler in Iran. My dad, he never once thought of living back in Iran. My mother wanted to go back to visit family members. Unless the situation changes, they may never go back. They said it was nice to have things simpler, which was different than Austria and the United States. There wasn’t a lot of mobility in people’s social classes.

Work wasn’t the biggest priority. There was one breadwinner for the home. Everything else was taken care of. It was a traditional lifestyle at home. They love LA.

5. Jacobsen: If practiced in the right way, what core values does Orthodox Judaism inculcate in adherents?

Seleh: I currently don’t practice Orthodox Judaism. The way I was raised. If followed properly, it would be the letter of the Law and following Rabbinic Statutes. That was the main thing that was emphasized. It was following the letter of the law as dictated by the Old Testament, but as interpreted by Rabbinic scholars. Their word was the last word. If you had a disagreement with something written in the Old Testament, it always goes by what the rabbinic scholars of the time interpret it to be.

6. Jacobsen: Some make false claims about values espoused by Orthodox Judaism. What individuals and groups tend to make false claims about Orthodox Judaism? What are the false values some claim Orthodox Judaism teaches and espouses?

Seleh: I think Orthodox Judaism is similar to other sects of Judaism. Even the Ultra-Orthodox community is isolated from the rest of the Jewish community because it is so isolated, people assume they are Liberal like other Jews. It is definitely a very communal religion, so it is like other sects of Judaism in that respect. To me, it is similar to Catholicism, more so than mainstream Judaism or the way mainstream Jews are.

7. Jacobsen: What are some of the complex social and cultural consequences of the differences in theology?

Seleh: There are so many. One example would be Orthodox Judaism saying, “We don’t eat certain meats because they are not Kosher. They don’t have a Kosher certification. They weren’t manufactured in a Kosher enough way.” The reason will be the Law, because this is what the Law says. If you further ask them, they will tell you more technicalities of the Law and why this doesn’t benefit you.

Liberal Judaism is more interpretive, “I do humanitarian things. I don’t hurt animals or eat animals in this certain way because God doesn’t want us to harm animals. The difference would be differences between the Catholic Church and Protestantism.

8. Jacobsen: How did the family background influence development for you?

Seleh: My siblings and I grew up in a traditional home centered on God and family. We attended gender-specific private schools with rigorous Yeshiva-centered curricula that focused mainly on biblical and scholarly Hebrew texts. Because of our religious and cultural influences combined with an isolationist community philosophy, we were somewhat immune to external contemporary influences evident in most American public schools. We were trained to plan for marriage from a very early age.

My parents tried to encourage us to become well rounded with extra-curricular activities such as travelling, music lessons, and physical sports. Sometimes I question whether my religious upbringing caused me to be naïve, characteristically awkward, and culturally unprepared for the ‘real world.’ However, I acknowledge that more than everything, it imbued my siblings and me with a sense of family structure and stability.

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  43. Seleh, P. (2015, July 22). Protesters at UC Berkeley get nude for trees. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6689.   
  44. Seleh, P. (2015, September 22). Republican Congressman Champion for Planned Parenthood. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/123/republican-congressman-champion-planned-parenthood-pardes-seleh.
  45. Seleh, P. (2015, November 24). Satirical ‘White Student Union’ Receives Death Threats for Protesting Anti-White Racism. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1348/white-student-union-receives-death-threats-pardes-seleh.
  46. Seleh, P. (2015, November 20). ‘Scream Queens’ Beats Up Antonin Scalia Physically. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/entertainment/1263/scream-queens-beats-antonin-scalia-physically-pardes-seleh.    
  47. Seleh, P. (2015, November 4). Scream Queens: Snotty Sorority Killer Chick’s Dad Supports Ted Cruz. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/entertainment/884/scream-queens-snotty-sorority-killer-chicks-dad-pardes-seleh.
  48. Seleh, P. (2015, April 18). Screening of American Sniper Hotly Contested at UCLA. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/screening-american-sniper-hotly-contested-ucla.  
  49. Seleh, P. (2014, November 20). Second UCLA Donor Pledges Funding Cut If Administration Doesn’t Condemn. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/second-ucla-donor-pledges-funding-cut-if-administration-doesnt-condemn-bds.
  50. Seleh, P. (2015, April 8). SFSU President Leslie Wong Bans School-Funded Travel To Indiana. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/sfsu-president-leslie-wong-bans-school-funded-travel-indiana.    
  51. Seleh, P. (2015, October 9). Students from 82 colleges urge Pope Francis to divest Vatican from fossil fuels. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6877.  
  52. Seleh, P. (2015). Study: No, There’s No Evidence Of a ‘Gay Gene’
  53. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/445/study-no-theres-no-evidence-gay-gene-pardes-seleh.
  54. Seleh, P. (2015, December 14). The University of Wisconsin Voted On Whether Free Speech Is A Good Thing. Here Are The Results.. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1859/university-wisconsin-voted-whether-free-speech-pardes-seleh.    
  55. Seleh, P. (2014, November 21). Third UCLA Donor Pledges to Pull Funds Over BDS. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/third-ucla-donor-pledges-pull-funds-over-bds.
  56. Seleh, P. (2014, November 11). TruthRevolt Students Protest SJP, Supposedly Pro-Israel Groups Undercut. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/truthrevolt-students-protest-sjp-supposedly-pro-israel-groups-undercut.
  57. Seleh, P. (2015, November 8). UC Berkeley Dems to frame GOP as racist during Tuesday’s debate. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6958.
  58. Seleh, P. (2015, November 23). UC Berkeley housing co-op establishes safe space guidelines. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=7022.
  59. Seleh, P. (2015, October 28). UC Berkeley study links economic inequality to climate change. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6930.
  60. Seleh, P. (2015, November 6). UC Files Amicus Brief Supporting Affirmative Action. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/944/uc-files-amicus-brief-supporting-affirmative-pardes-seleh.  
  61. Seleh, P. (2015, November 10). UC Merced Attacker Was A Radical Muslim. The University, Police, and Media Covered It Up. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1024/uc-merced-attacker-was-radical-muslim-university-pardes-seleh.
  62. Seleh, P. (2015, April 21). UCLA Activist Over Screening of American Sniper: “Death to America”. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-activist-over-screening-american-sniper-death-america.  
  63. Seleh, P. (2015, April 22). UCLA Activist: “What’s Wrong with Death to America???”. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-activist-whats-wrong-death-america.  
  64. Seleh, P. (2014, December 11). UCLA Adds Cuba To Its List Of Study Abroad Programs. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-adds-cuba-its-list-study-abroad-programs.   
  65. Seleh, P. (2015, March 18). UCLA Chancellor Compares Anti-SJP Posters To Swastikas. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-chancellor-compares-anti-sjp-posters-swastikas.   
  66. Seleh, P. (2014, November 24). UCLA Donor Reverses Decision To Pull Funds After Administration Bucks BDSe to Chancellor’s rejection of divestment resolution. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-donor-reverses-decision-pull-funds-after-administration-bucks-bdse-chancellors-rejection.  
  67. Seleh, P. (2015, October 23). UCLA institutes faculty ‘bias awareness training’. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6917.
  68. Seleh, P. (2015, March 17). UCLA Newspaper Defends Pro-Terror Student Group. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-newspaper-defends-pro-terror-student-group.  
  69. Seleh, P. (2014, December 11). UCLA Professor Under Fire For Exam Question Relating To Ferguson Shooting. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-professor-under-fire-exam-question-relating-ferguson-shooting.  
  70. Seleh, P. (2015, July 13). UCLA provides internship opportunities to illegal immigrants. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6662.
  71. Seleh, P. (2015, February 5). UCLA Republican Students Attacked for Being White. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-republican-students-attacked-being-white.
  72. Seleh, P. (2015, November 11). UCLA Student Council Unanimously Passes Resolution Against Calling SJP ‘Anti-Semitic’. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-student-council-unanimously-passes-resolution-against-calling-sjp-anti-semitic.
  73. Seleh, P. (2015, October 8). UCLA Students Cry Racism Over White Kids Dressing Up As Kim and Kanye. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/324/ucla-students-cry-racism-over-white-kids-dressing-pardes-seleh.    
  74. Seleh, P. (2014, September 23). UCLA Students Stand Up To SJP. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucla-students-stand-sjp.
  75. Seleh, P. (2015, March 10). UCSA Votes To Divest From Gun Companies. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/ucsa-votes-divest-gun-companies.  
  76. Seleh, P. (2015, December 7). UCSB Administration ‘Triggered’ by White Student Union, to Offer Counseling Services. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1633/ucsb-administration-triggered-white-student-union-pardes-seleh.    
  77. Seleh, P. (2015, December 2). UCSB White Student Union Releases ‘List of Demands’. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/1519/ucsb-white-student-union-releases-list-demands-pardes-seleh.
  78. Seleh, P. (2016, February 16). Univ. of California selectively recruits Latino and black students. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=7291.
  79. Seleh, P. (2015, September 11). Univ. of Illinois allows 9/11 memorial. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6799.
  80. Seleh, P. (2015, April 23). University Of Maryland Cancels Screening Of American Sniper. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/university-maryland-cancels-screening-american-sniper.  
  81. Seleh, P. (2015, October 8). University of Toronto Dumps Transgender Bathrooms After Peeping Incidents. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/330/university-toronto-dumps-transgender-bathrooms-pardes-seleh.    
  82. Seleh, P. (2015, February 22). UPDATE: NY Taxi Driver Yells ‘All Jews Must Die’. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/update-ny-taxi-driver-yells-all-jews-must-die.
  83. Seleh, P. (2015, March 25). USAC President Avinoam Baral Blames Netanyahu for BDS. Retrieved from http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/usac-president-avinoam-baral-blames-netanyahu-bds.
  84. Seleh, P. (2015, October 8). Victims of Sharia Mandate Respond to Ben Carson’s Comments. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/327/victims-sharia-mandate-respond-ben-carsons-pardes-seleh.
  85. Seleh, P. (2015, May 23). Was a landmark study on gay marriage faked? Looks like it. Retrieved from http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6526.  
  86. Seleh, P. (2015, September 22). Was McConnell’s Revote on the Iran Deal a Hoax?. Retrieved from http://www.dailywire.com/news/124/was-mcconnells-revote-iran-deal-hoax-pardes-seleh.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Former Writer, Independent Journal Review; Former Staff Writer, Daily Wire; Former Editor-in-Chief, The Bruin Standard; Former California Campus Correspondent, Campus Reform.  

[2] Individual Publication Date: October 8, 2017 at www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-one; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2018 at www.in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Santa Monica College (2012-2014); B.S. (2014-2016), Human Biology and Society, University of California, Los Angeles; Lifeguard Instructor, American Red Cross.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Pardes Seleh.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part One) [Online].October 2017; 15(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-one.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, October 8). An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part One). Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-one.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A, October. 2017. <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-one>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-one.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A (October 2017). www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-one.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 15.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-one>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 15.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-one.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 15.A (2017):October. 2017. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-one>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Pardes Seleh (Part One)[Internet]. (2017, October; 15(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pardes-seleh-part-one.

License and Copyright

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In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2017-10-01

An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part Five)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 15.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Eleven)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: October 1, 2017

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 4,517

ISSN 2369-6885

1

Abstract

An interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. She discusses: Christian theology and its impact on children’s and women’s rights; violation of women’s and children’s rights; religious or secular motivation; humanistic and humanitarian motivations; changes over the 5 years of its operations; greatest impact on a single child seen by her; need of a birth certificate for education access; importance of training opportunities; importance of work opportunities for community and staff; possibilities for post-secondary education geared towards the knowledge economy in the wake of the Fourth Industrial Revolution; clarity and education on the improper distribution of donations to corrupt organizations; the viability of the original dream of becoming a veterinarian; using new coordination skills; ways to donate resources; and meaning of awards.

Keywords: Humanitarianism, Little Footprints Big Steps International Development Organization, Morgan Wienberg.

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been edited for clarity and readability.*​

*Images in Appendix I: Photographs.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: You mentioned a pastor would say, ‘Men own women before or upon marriage.’ To me, there are some undercurrents in Canada. However, nothing as explicit as that to personal observations. According to statistics, it is a majority Christian nation. There are more believers than non-believers in Christianity. How does Christian theology impact children’s and women’s rights?

Morgan Wienberg: It is a delicate subject. I have seen ways religion has been powerful in Haitian’s lives. It has helped them. I have seen religion used to manipulate people. For example, the woman running the orphanage, which I lived in for a time. She would enter the churches. She was seen as a saint by the communities. She would approach people’s churches. The majority of parents who were convinced to give their children to the orphanage.

They gave the children away in the church. Their child died and so on. It was deceptive. She would take donations from the orphanage – clothes, food, and so on. She would not give them to the kids in the orphanage. When she went on these “mission trips,” as she called them, to the mountainside and approached people’s churches to recruit kids, she would give out the donations to demonstrate wealth.

I know genuine pastors, but I know corrupt pastors who are looking for money. Many people use Christianity to abuse people’s trust because they believe a fellow Christian over someone that does not go to church. There are people like the woman running the church. She abuses the trust. For women, in terms of personal freedom of choice, there are churches with seminars about the reason being gay is wrong, even turning that into violence.

Pastors preaching that women need to be obedient. It varies from one church to another. There are ways that religion is being used to oppress people.

2. Jacobsen: It’s really, really hard hearing these things. Of course, it is not the same as being there. [Laughing]

Wienberg: Yea! [Laughing]

3. Jacobsen: There is a distinction between Constantinian Christianity and Non-Constantinian Christianity. Constantinian Christianity with Emperor Constantine making Christianity the religion of the persecutors. Before that, it was the religion of the persecuted with the image of The Cross. There was Liberation Theology in Latin America with the attempt to instantiate the religion of the persecuted.

The Jesuit intellectuals, priests, were assassinated. The former is used for power. Your statements represent the concept and actuality of women as second class. If you look at women, does this seem like the violation women’s rights to you? If you look at children, does this seem like the violation of children’s rights?

Absolutely, in the Convention of Child Rights, we are talking about the child’s best interest always being priority. Obviously, this woman’s actions are based on ulterior motives for personal benefit. It is not in the child’s best interest. It is completely manipulating women and stripping them of independent thought. The attempt to control them and the sense of the right to their own body.

4. Jacobsen: Does a religious or secular framework motivate you, or both, for an overarching metanarrative, code of conduct, and belief system for life?

I do not think I am motivated by religion. I am motivated by equality of human rights. That’s what has always driven me, and empathy. Many staff, local Haitian staff in particular, are motivated by religion. For me, human rights violations need to be addressed.

5. Jacobsen: To me, that sounds humanistic and humanitarian. The two themes at play here.

Yes.

6. Jacobsen: I want to look at the progression. You started five years ago. We covered the three main components of Little Footprints Big Steps International Development Organization. What changes occurred throughout these 5 years?

The development of a team of local employees who I can trust. They understand the vision. It was not an easy feat. It was in the last two years. It was not an easy feat. I have loyal staff. I needed o not take the whole suite of responsibilities one myself. I learned not to do the change for them and let them influence themselves. It was a realization for me. It has allowed me to make changes to the programs of the organization.

It increased the impact. It increased the number of impacted people. One major thing is the relationship with local authorities. In the beginning, it was not great. Now, we have a great relationship. It solidifies our relationship in and with the community. It allows the impact to be culturally appropriate and effective. Those are the main things.

7. Jacobsen: If you take into account a single child, what is the greatest impact seen by you?

Ysaac is the best example. I always talk about him. This was a child who was in the streets from age 9 to 12. At age 9, his mom died. The man who he thought was his father rejected him. He was on the streets during the earthquake, during hurricanes, and through a lot of violence and abuse. He has been attacked by dogs, hit by motorcycles, and not even gone to the hospital.

He is a little kid somewhere curling up on the side of the street. In addition to that, he had a tumor. It was a huge deformity. It was s 13-inch tumor on his cheek. He was completely separated from other kids. The community thought he was crazy. That is, he was not considered human like everyone else. With the tumor, he made more money by baking.

That made him a target for the other street kids. He would be attacked at knife point or with razors while sleeping to have his money stolen. He would have shoes stolen off his feet. He would have his eyes crazy glued closed while sleeping or being burned while asleep. In reaction to that, he became the most violent kid in the streets. He became the chief street kid for that one intersection.

He was probably the most violent kid I’ve ever met. When I met him, he would not communicate. When you think about it, he was isolated and no one would talk to him. He had been on the street for 3 years. I met him at age 12. No one ever talks to him; of course, he stopped communicating. When I first met him, I sat with the other street kids. He never talked to me.

He never got closer than an arm’s length away. When I spoke to him, he would not come and talk to me. He would never get closer than an arm’s length away. If I spoke to him, he would make animal noises. He would make a crazy laugh or shriek. He would be shrieking and make wide eyes in my face, run away, or run around. [Laughing] That is the only communication that I got from him.

Also, he was not only the most violent, not only was not communicating, but was the slowest kid to trust out of the all of the kids that I have worked with here. Other street kids started to live in the safe house or were reunited with their families, directly. Ysaac did not trust us enough to live in the safe house. He would come in the day for food.

He would survive by fishing. He would take a stick or a metal clothes hanger, bend it into a spear, go to a beach, and catch 20 little fish on the spear with his hands. He would go to the water and spear them. He has amazing hand-eye coordination. He would come, cook them up in the safe house, leave, and sleep on the street. Eventually, he was one of the last kids on the street.

I would sit with him everyday. I would talk to him. He would not respond to me. I thought, “Am I wasting my time with this kid that does not respond or pretends that he is not listening?” One day, I was late going to visit him. Usually, I went at 2:00 or 3:00 in the afternoon. I went at 11:00 at night. He was laying on this roundabout in the middle of the intersection.

When I came, he was pouting and said, “I thought you weren’t going to come.” He said that he cried. That was when I realized that it was impacting him, even having the interaction and stability. They have no stability. Nothing is consistent in their lives. To have me sitting beside him, that was the most consistency in his life for the last 3 years.

When I came late, that set back his trust in me. It was ten steps behind. I had to build that trust again before communicating with me. He started living in the safe house. Even living in the safe house, he would have psychotic episodes. He would act like an animal, run on the roof, and running around screaming with a knife. No one could talk to him.

After three or four months of living in a safe house and having consistency, with part of that as testing me because everyone leaves them, it was seeing his actions are bad, but I still believe in you. He sees it. It takes time for the street kids to realize this. Even living in the safe house, it is temporary. It is day-by-day. If they do something bad, they think will kick them out, immediately.

After three or four months, he realized that I won’t give up on him because he does something crazy. All of the sudden, the psychotic episodes stopped. With the street kids’ lack of communication, they will not tell someone to stop it, but will turn around and beat them up. It is teaching them to use words or tell an adult. It takes a year. If you look at Ysaac now, I do not remember the last time he got in fight, hit anyone, or even hit a dog.

He is protective, loves structure and principle. If someone else does something that they are not supposed to do, he will call them out on it. He had never been to school at the time – at 12 years old when he came into the safe house. He is such a perfectionist in school. Once they took away the exam paper before he was done, he was crying, so upset about it.

He is consistently in the top of his class for his level of discipline and academics. Ysaac started living in the safe house. I took him to Miami for surgery, twice. I became the legal guardian. We travelled to Miami for five months. He had major surgery. They cut open half of his head. It took six hours the first time. We did not know if the tumor was cancerous or not, which it was not.

That experience being an only child. He has the travelling to the US. Even being an only child living with me in an apartment helped us bond, I took him to see a psychologist while in Miami. The psychologist said he was 14 and did not have a birth certificate. It took a year to get the paper work ready.

8. Jacobsen: He couldn’t attend classes without the birth certificate.

No, he could not attend classes without it. We had one made, though. The psychologist said he had the emotional maturity of a 6-year-old. After the surgery, we went back to Haiti. Six months later, when he was 15, we went for follow-up surgery with two surgeons. We were in Miami for five months. We went to see the psychologist again. Now, he was at the emotional maturity of s 12-year-old.

The experience of bonding as an only child with the experience coming here. The trust of that permanency with me helped him mature in those 6 months, which was equivalent to 6 years of emotional maturity. The first time in Miami, if someone communicated with him, and if he was uncomfortable, he would make animal noises and act crazy.

Everyone had perceived him as crazy. It was a protection mechanism. Now, you would not tell that at all. He is at a 4th grade level in school. He is in an English immersion school and doing a mechanics apprenticeship. He is 16 now. He will be 17 soon. His level of personal growth is ridiculous. His level of confidence. His interaction with people and animals. He is protective and kind.

He is a different person. He has strength of character. Other individuals that went through the same difficulties might not become who he is today.

9. Jacobsen: What’s the importance of training opportunities?

It is important to increase staff capacities. You can always learn more. There are numerous subjects applicable to our work. You can go into personality types and communication are applicable to work for us. Also, the training in first aid and psychology. Many different things. Not only are we increasing their capacity and efficiency, we are showing their importance. We make them feel like valued members of the team.

We invest in them. They feel empowered. They have the skills and feel it. They can make an impact. They are motivated and engaged. With staff, anything learned can be passed on to the families and children. It is investing in them and the community.

10. Jacobsen: You mentioned the mechanics apprenticeship for Ysaac. What about work opportunities for the community and the staff?

Those are one of the most important and difficult things to find here. We have staff in post-secondary studies. Most of the time, it does not guarantee a job. We have mechanic apprenticeships, various vocational schools like plumbing, electrical, and computer classes, and English classes. English classes can open numerous job opportunities. Hotel job training, sewing and cook for women, there is another initiative.

We have training for working on cruise ships. The strength in the training is a secure contract to work on cruise ships, which is exciting. We have parents or older kids. If they have carpentry skills or can sew school uniforms, we have 300 kids sent to school. Each needs hand sewn uniforms. If we have parents or staff with the skills, we will give them that job.

Again, that is a temporary source of income. We have parents with garments. We have youth training with local agronomists. We provide them with materials to use the training at home to produce a garden. We have purchased some of the food from the families’ gardens. We have used tat for the safe house, which for families in the rural areas is a primary source of income for them.

It is selling produce or surviving off the land. There are families supported by us. We help them raise livestock or start a small business. We have a few students going through nursing school as well.

11. Jacobsen: You have farming, trades, services, and healthcare. If you look at Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, he was in Davos, Switzerland at the World Economic Forum earlier this year. He talked about women’s rights. He was talking about the Fourth Industrial Revolution. We are looking at a future of robotics and artificial intelligence on a large scale.

A main part is the knowledge economy, which means secondary and post-secondary education. What can be done for Haitians for post-secondary education in the sciences and engineering, which are crucial for this new and ongoing economy?

Universities exists in Haiti. Unfortunately, the majority are based on Port-au-Prince. People are prevented from attending post-secondary education through not only being able to afford the education, but the cost of living for them to attend university or college is too high. They are forced to enter work via trades or odd jobs to survive because they can not go to school.

At that age, they need to be working or can not afford to eat and have housing while going to school. Maybe, more programs in supporting them with those costs while going to school.

12. Jacobsen: The provisions of infrastructure for stability in society, and in the family unit, need to be in place to provide the basis from which success in educational pursuits can be accomplished for the young people at the standard post-secondary readiness age. It’s hard to work and learn at the same time. I want to turn back to donors.

What might clear the fog of deceit for American churches, and others, to develop the proper route for the monetary funds and other support meant for children and families in need of assistance – instead of the exploitative criminals?

Definitely, I feel being more aware. In general, funding should not be directed to orphanages. People should see community-based initiatives and attempt on focus on those. If people want to be helping orphanages or do not know the place to go for it, you can approach the local authorities, IBESR, is a good source. They know the registered or not registered orphanages.

They have the foster family program where kids who are misplaced are placed in foster homes rather than orphanages. That is another alternative. You can support the foster families rather than orphanages. Also, you can find programs that commit to family reunification and after care programs for youth. Those investments will have a greater impact. You are not feeding into the corruption of orphanages.

13. Jacobsen: Originally, you had a dream of becoming a veterinarian. You have not abandoned the dream. Will this become a viability in the future?

I always wanted to be a veterinarian since I was 6 years old. My first time in Haiti. I wanted to go to veterinary support, but I could not do it. After the first trip to Haiti, I changed the dream. I wanted to become a pediatric surgeon. I applied to nursing school with intentions of specializing in pediatric surgery. I got accepted, full scholarship to McGill.

I deferred for 3 years in a row before I realized that I am not going to be going. [Laughing] Definitely, I do not regret it. I feel life is stressful for me. I want to do a lot of things. However, I feel fulfilled with life. I feel like I am meant to be doing this. If I returned to university, I would not enter medical school. I loved biology. However, my passion is more in psychology, social work, and international relations.

At the same time, if I talk about medical conditions and wanting to help children, there are specialists for every child issue. Those specialists exist. Someone to link the child on a mountainside in Haiti to that specialist is missing. I can impact more people by linking the children or people in need and making the connection with the people who can help them.

14. Jacobsen: That would take advantage of the coordination skills developed now, too.

Exactly. [Laughing]

15. Jacobsen: For those with the desire or intent to donate, please see go here: https://www.littlefootprintsbigsteps.com/donate/safehouse/. You can sponsor a child through here: https://www.littlefootprintsbigsteps.com/sponsor-a-child/. What other ways can people contribute time, connections, money, associations, organizations, and so on?

Donations help, the monthly donations, for me, are more appreciated by me. It takes a lot of stress ‘off my shoulders’ to have more stability of knowing that when I am increasing monthly expenses that we have a monthly income as well. Definitely, there is a lot of responsibility in terms of marketing and fundraising activities, communications with sponsors, and helping manage the website. My mother takes on a lot of them.

Assistance with the website and fundraising would help a lot. We had Ysaac’s surgery done through connections based on doctor’s donating time. It was incredible. We would never have been able to afford it. We are open if people approach us with ideas, especially in how they can help us. We are open to hearing it.

16. Jacobsen: You earned the Meritorious Service Cross Medal, Queen’s Diamond Jubilee Medal, Governor General of Canada Academic Awards, Yukon Commissioner Award. What do these awards mean to you?

It is a huge honor. It demonstrates Canada’s support and encouragement for this work. It is easier for me to feel isolated and disconnected from Canada. Sometimes, I am met with criticism from Canadians. They say, “There are homeless people in Canada. Why are you doing that?” It is a different situation. You cannot compare the levels of poverty.

It is a statement, which crushes those criticisms from individuals. It is a statement that Canada is encouraging me, is behind me. Even if I am spending the majority of personal time out of Canada, I am a proud Canada. It speaks strongly of Canada’s connection with Haiti. It felt good to be recognized by Canada. It made me feel more connected as a Canadian. In that, what I am doing is not ‘out of sight, out of mind’ from my home country.

An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C.: Co-Founder, Coordinator, and Head of Haiti Operations, Little Footprints Big Steps International Development Organization (Part Five)[1],[2],[3],[4]

 

References

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[DevelopingPictures]. (2012, March 25). Sponsor a Child: Little Footprints Big Steps. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjzncB3HsmA.

[James Pierre]. (2016, April 5). Morgan Wienberg goes one-on-one with James Pierre. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1VMeKKTxkM.

[Morgan Wienberg]. (2014, June 3). Congratulations, FH Grad 2014!. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNQ7PB95aYA.

[Ryan Sheetz]. (2015, February 20). Little Footprints Big Steps. Retrieved fromhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9fdPx1srGI.

Bailey, G. (2013, December 31). Catch Yukoner Morgan Wienberg tomorrow on CBC’s Gracious Gifts. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/airplay/features/2013/12/31/catch-yukoner-morgan-wienberg-tomorrow-on-cbcs-gracious-gifts/.

Baker, R. (2016, March 4). PHOTOS Governor General recognizes exceptional Canadians in Vancouver. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/governor-general-recognizes-exceptional-canadians-in-vancouver-1.3476960.

Broadley, L. (2014, August 1). Meet the Yukoner reuniting Haitian ‘orphans’ with their families. Retrieved from http://globalnews.ca/news/1482839/one-yukoners-work-reuniting-haitian-orphans-with-their-families/.

Bruemmer, R. (2011, April 8). Haiti: Little Paul gets it done. Retrieved from http://www.montrealgazette.com/business/haiti+little+paul+gets+done/5214066/story.html.

CBC News. (2015, November 29). Morgan Wienberg awarded Meritorious Service Cross for work in Haiti. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/morgan-wienberg-awarded-meritorious-service-cross-for-work-in-haiti-1.3340295.

ca. (n.d.). 23-year-old receives Meritorious Service Cross Medal. Retrieved from http://canadaam.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=804018&playlistId=1.2769055&binId=1.815911&playlistPageNum=1&binPageNum=1.

ca Staff. (2016, February 8). 23-year-old awarded Meritorious Service Cross for work in Haiti. Retrieved from http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/23-year-old-awarded-meritorious-service-cross-for-work-in-haiti-1.2769013.

Dolphin, M. (2015, December 4). Yukoner’s work in Haiti draws governor general’s attention. Retrieved from http://www.yukon-news.com/life/yukoners-work-in-haiti-draws-governor-generals-attention/.

Gillmore, M. (2012, July 18). Helping to reunite families in Haiti. Retrieved from http://yukon-news.com/life/helping-to-reunite-families-in-haiti.

Gillmore, W. (2013, August 16). Wienberg gives New York a glimpse of Haiti. Retrieved from http://www.yukon-news.com/news/wienberg-gives-new-york-a-glimpse-of-haiti/.

Gjerstad, S. (2014, April 8). Morgan (22) vier livet sitt til å gjenforene barn med foreldrene sine på Haiti. Retrieved from http://www.tv2.no/a/5852686/.

Joannou, A. (2016, March 7). Governor general gives nod to Yukon’s champion of Haitian children. Retrieved from http://www.yukon-news.com/news/governor-general-gives-nod-to-yukons-champion-of-haitian-children/.

Langham, M. (2012, October 10). Just Like Us: An Interview with Morgan Wienberg of Little Footprints, Big Steps. Retrieved from http://aconspiracyofhope.blogspot.ca/2012/10/just-like-us-interview-with-morgan.html.

Little Footprints, Big Steps. (2016). Little Footprints, Big Steps. Retrieved from https://www.littlefootprintsbigsteps.com.

Neel, T. (2013, May 16). Reaching the Hearts of Children in Need. Retrieved from http://whatsupyukon.com/Lifestyle/making-a-difference/reaching-the-hearts-of-children-in-need/#sthash.YCSvg1aM.oVLAQE3j.dpbs.

Peacock, A. (2016, February 27). Haiti has her heart. http://www.kelownadailycourier.ca/news/local_news/article_beb828d0-ddcf-11e5-851b-8b09487f61ce.html?mode=story.

(2014, July 8). Joven canadiense decide gastar sus ahorros en rescatar niños de Haití. Retrieved from http://www.elpais.com.uy/vida-actual/joven-canadiense-reune-huerfanos-haitianos.html.

Rodgers, E. (2015, January 12). Meet the 22-Year-Old Who Skipped Out on College—to Offer a Helping Hand in Haiti. Retrieved from http://www.takepart.com/article/2015/01/12/meet-morgan-wienberg-little-foot-big-step.

Schott, B.Y. (2012, September 13). Making a Difference One Child at a Time. Retrieved from http://whatsupyukon.com/Lifestyle/making-a-difference/making-a-difference-one-child-at-a-time/#sthash.CeS656Xm.2r1eJsAW.dpbs.

Shiel, A. (2011, November 17). McGill students host third annual TEDxMcGill even. Retrieved from http://www.mcgilldaily.com/2011/11/mcgill-students-host-third-annual-tedxmcgill-event/.

Thompson, J. (2011, December 23). Helping Haiti for the holidays. Retrieved from http://yukon-news.com/life/helping-haiti-for-the-holidays.

Thompson, J. (August 12). Hope and hard lessons in Haiti. Retrieved from http://yukon-news.com/life/hope-and-hard-lessons-in-haiti.

Thomson Reuters. (2014, July 27). 22-year-old Yukoner reunites Haitian ‘orphans’ with parents. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/22-year-old-yukoner-reunites-haitian-orphans-with-parents-1.2719559.

Waddell, S. (2015, November 27). For decorated Yukoner, home is now Haiti. Retrieved from http://www.whitehorsestar.com/News/for-decorated-yukoner-home-is-now-haiti.

Whitehorse Star. (2016, March 2). Yukoners to receive honours from Governor General. Retrieved from http://www.whitehorsestar.com/News/yukoners-to-receive-honours-from-governor-general.

Wienberg, M. (2013, November 22). Age Is Not an Obstacle in Changing the World. Retrieved from http://www.huffingtonpost.com/morgan-wienberg/age-is-not-an-obstacle_b_4324563.html.

Wienberg, M. (2014, January 23). Courage of a Mother. Retrieved from http://whatsupyukon.com/Lifestyle/making-a-difference/courage-of-a-mother/#sthash.hy1QzF0S.ZA1StSZz.dpbs.

Woodcock, R. (2013, September 26). Back to School in Haiti. Retrieved from http://whatsupyukon.com/Lifestyle/making-a-difference/back-to-school-in-haiti/#sthash.TMqQNkLX.dpbs.

Yukon News. (2013, February 6). Incredible acts of kindness in Haiti. Retrieved from http://yukon-news.com/letters-opinions/incredible-acts-of-kindness-in-haiti.

Appendix I: Photographs

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Appendix II: Footnotes

[1] Co-Founder, Coordinator, and Head of Haiti Operations, Little Footprints Big Steps International Development Organization.

[2] Individual Publication Date: October 1, 2017 at www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-morgan-wienberg-m-s-c-part-five; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2018 at www.in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Meritorious Service Cross (M.S.C.), Government of Canada; Queen’s Diamond Jubilee Medal; Governor General of Canada Academic Awards; Yukon Commissioner Award; Finalist, Young Women Impacting Social Justice, The Berger-Marks Foundation; Rotary International Paul Harris Fellowship Award for Humanitarian Impact, Rotary International; Keynote Speaker (2013), United Nations Youth Assembly.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Morgan Wienberg.

Appendix III: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part Five) [Online].October 2017; 15(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-morgan-wienberg-m-s-c-part-five.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, October 1). An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part Five). Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-morgan-wienberg-m-s-c-part-five.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part Five). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A, October. 2017. <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-morgan-wienberg-m-s-c-part-five>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part Five).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-morgan-wienberg-m-s-c-part-five.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part Five).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A (October 2017). www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-morgan-wienberg-m-s-c-part-five.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part Five)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 15.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-morgan-wienberg-m-s-c-part-five>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part Five)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 15.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-morgan-wienberg-m-s-c-part-five.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part Five).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 15.A (2017):October. 2017. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-morgan-wienberg-m-s-c-part-five>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part Five)[Internet]. (2017, October; 15(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-morgan-wienberg-m-s-c-part-five.

License and Copyright

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In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2017-09-22

An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part Four)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 15.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Nine)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: September 22, 2017

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 4,006

ISSN 2369-6885

1

Abstract

An interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. She discusses: modern examples 5 years into the development of Little Footprints Big Steps International Development Organization’s three components; number of corrupt orphanages; number of orphanages completely shut down with assistance of Morgan; the general process of shutting down corrupt orphanages; nuanced on-the-ground aspects of the problems in family reintegration and aftercare programs; best ways to empower women and girls to flourish; and the involvement of fathers and birth control.

Keywords: Humanitarianism, Little Footprints Big Steps International Development Organization, Morgan Wienberg.

An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C.: Co-Founder, Coordinator, and Head of Haiti Operations, Little Footprints Big Steps International Development Organization (Part Four)[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been edited for clarity and readability.*​

*Images in Appendix I: Photographs.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Little Footprints Big Steps International Development Organization works from three components: child well-being and development, family and community involvement, and advocacy of child rights.[5] What are some modern examples of this – 5 years into its development?

Morgan Wienberg: Some children have been reunited for several years. We are focusing on education and medical care for the kids. That’s one clear example with child well-being and development. When speaking about family and community development, the community trainings as part of the working group for child protection. Community education regarding child abuse and sexual assault.

Also, education regarding abandonment once people give their children to orphanages. Some children have been reunited longer. We will invest in helping a parent start a small business or raise livestock. That does overlap into child wellbeing and development because the objective is to help that parent be able to care for the child.

In addition to it, that family can invest in their local economy, which can affect the whole community. When we talk abut advocacy, some examples include parents who try to reclaim their child from a corrupt orphanage. They find out that the child has been sold. We met one parent whose child died in the orphanage. We accompany those parents to take legal action and get an arrest warrant for the orphanage owner.

I have been involved in shutting several orphanages down. We have some of the kids involved in advocacy. When we have meetings with certain partners to educate international community about corrupt orphanages and the importance of family reunification, we have some of the youth that went through the phase of living in an abusive orphanage.

Now, they are with their families or in a state house. We have those children speak at the meetings or speak with partners, or on radios. We try to get them involved in that as well. In addition, other advocacy cases include kids who are sexually assaulted. We accompany them to the hospital for medical care. We try to arrange mental health care as well.

We have the child see a psychologist. We have them removed from the dangerous situation. We accompany them to the police system and to court if necessary.

2. Jacobsen: In a prior interview, you mentioned 600 orphanages were corrupt in Haiti. However, it is hard to track them. You posited more.

Wienberg: There are more.

(Laughs)

There are thousands of orphanages in Haiti. Social Services has tried to monitor them. However, when you talk about the entire Southern department, which is equivalent to a province or a state, there are only 7 social workers for the entire region who are with social services. Those 7 social workers don’t have contracts. They haven’t had contracts for the last 3 months.

They haven’t been paid. They go to work because of commitment to the kids. There are only 2 paid social workers at present for the entire region. They have one vehicle. How can they monitor those orphanages? They did try to do some statistics about it. Definitely, I believe there are more than 600.

3. Jacobsen: How many have you been involved in shutting down?

Wienberg: I have been involved in shutting down three orphanages, completely.

4. Jacobsen: What is the process to shutting them down? If people are reading this 1, 5, or 10 years from now, what is the general process to shut them down directly or indirectly through support/advocacy to shut them down?

Wienberg: It is important to be in contact with IBESR. If you see orphanages that do not treat children well or up to standards, you should report it. If it is not too severe, they will not shut it down, but will pressure the orphanage to improve its standards. It is important to notify them about it. That is the first step. Also, you can go to the police, UNICEF, or Save the Children.

In terms of prevention, if you want to support abused children, you should know orphanages are more likely to cause more problems. You can consider supporting families or community development projects, foster homes, or support IBESR if you’re going to support an orphanage. IBESR can list the official ones. If it is an orphanage that you are part of now, you can contact IBESR to see if it is registered.

First of all, international sponsors for these orphanages are not aware of the exploitation happening. Also, they might not be aware of the alternatives. Haiti is on another level. Even if an orphanage is well run, the children are healthy. It has sufficient funding. A child raised in an institution is not going to develop the same as a child in a family setting. S.O.S. Village is a good example.

This is a good orphanage that we’ve placed children when they can’t be with their families because it is set up as a family setting. It is broken into different households with a mother and a limited number of kids. I appreciate that some kids need orphanages, but the setup should be in a family dynamic. There is research to prove this. Kids raised in institutions are more likely to be involved in prostitution, crime, and so on.

They feel like they are lacking something. If you look at Haiti as a whole and want to help Haiti advance, I do not see how taking children away from their communities and leaving them in that one spot, and leave them there until they are 18, will help the country advance.

You have teenagers completely disconnected from the community. They do not know how to survive in their own country. They do not have the connections to community for reintegration into the community. I have seen those kids at 18. They grow up well in an orphanage, but are put out on the street at 18. Literally, there have been kids that die because of malnutrition. They do not know how to survive.

Once they turn 18, they can not keep them in the orphanage. They put him on the street. They did not reunite him with the family at that point. If the child has been at the orphanage for several years, who knows if the family will accept them? If they do live with the family, they do not have the connection. They are not used to surviving. A lot of the time, they do not have the skills to look after themselves and the community.

Haiti is lacking in aftercare programs for transitioning youth into more self-sufficient adults. Many people are eager to support little kids. Sometimes, it is difficult to acquire funding for teenagers or young adults. It is important because those are some of the most at-risk people in Haiti. Those young adults. They have the potential to turn the country around and contribute to the economy, and to create industry.

They can look after themselves and other people. Few people are investing in that age group. Those are the people turning to crime or remaining dependent on adults or orphanages, and so on. So, definitely, the investment in families and communities is the way to go; if you have to support and institution, you should have it based in family units with aftercare programs to help youths transition out.

5. Jacobsen: Statistically, those that will become involved in crime, drugs, inability to support themselves, and have a negative impact on society are young men more than young women. The reintegration of young men into families is important for the reduction of those negative impacts. I love your comprehensive perspective. Aside from family reintegration and after care programs, what are the nuanced on-the-ground aspects of the problem?

Wienberg: With the aid coming to Haiti, I notice this does not focus on empowerment and sustainability of the locals. Those giving the aid need to ask the locals what they are not good at and then work on improving that for them. That can help them become more sustainable.  Also, it creates a culture of dependents. The Haitian people are receiving handouts or people are coming to them and asking, “What do you need?”

Rather than, “What qualities do you have that we can help you build?” That mentality, even once healthier, they will not realize that they can impact or improve those in their community. They see themselves as receivers rather than contributors. It is about coming with an open mind and being culturally sensitive asking, “How can we help you become more sustainable?” Then, you can invest in that.

When you look at the US aid approach of sending subsidized rice into Haiti, local farmers can not sell rice. The street rice in more expensive than bleached white American rice. Even a portion of the money invested in shipping the rice over here, if those funds were invested in helping local farmer grow crops and training them in effective methods of doing it, it would have an exponentially greater impact here than the standard method.

6. Jacobsen: You are touching on something deep there. I note young men being more likely to head into crime, and so on, if disenfranchised, alienated, and so on. The sociological term is anomie. If you take the suggestion of having some of the money used to ship the subsidized white American rice and give this to women – daughters, mothers, aunts, and grandmothers, that can be taken as a form of empowerment of women at one level.

Furthermore, empowerment of women is the strongest force for raising the ‘floor’ of the entire society – any society. This has been shown by the UN repeatedly on international metrics. You mentioned a women’s rights governmental organization that you are working with as well. What are the best ways to empower girls and young women to flourish?

Wienberg: Women’s independence is a huge aspect of it because a lot of women and girls depend on men for finance. Sometimes, even if they are able to go to school or have other opportunities, because their opportunities are being paid for by men, they become pregnant or influenced by those men and not making their own decisions. Mothers need to be able to look after their children would address the issue.

Women being economically independent would help them take their futures into their own hands. I work with kids in the streets. Primarily, they are boys. I think that’s because the girls, even suffering domestic abuse, will stay at home because they depend on it. Even with women, with wives, their husband can be abusing their children. They will stay at home because the men rent the house for them.

Even if we look at what is going into the streets, they are being introduced to crime. There is a gang environment, where older people and young men will pressure children into doing certain crimes. I have 13-year-old boys tell me about how a man has put a gun in their hands and pressured them to rob a store. If they are accused, they will be beat up or have to leave the area.

If mothers are able to look after their kids, those kids will be able to look after them. Primarily, kids will enter the streets because there is nothing going on at home. There is no food. They are not in school. They might as well go out and find a way to feed themselves. If parents are able to provide for their kids, that is ultimately the biggest way to address these issues.

In particular, we need to invest in women. Many men do not take responsibility for their families or their children. We had a father of a girl, who we reunited, sell the family’s home. He had five kids – four boys and one daughter. This was a girl in the corrupt orphanage.  The mother is an incredibly strong woman. She stays with the man.

This man sold the home. Now, they live in a mix of tarp and metal sheets put together. They do not know what he did with the money. He has other girlfriends. Many men do not take responsibility for their families. We had the mother start a small business. We saw a difference in the children’s health at that point. So, the empowerment of women is a powerful thing to do now.

There are fathers who care about their kids and family. However, primarily, we see mothers being more sensitive for their children.

7. Jacobsen: The main message was economic empowerment of women and the involvement of fathers. Another aspect of United Nations empowerment of women has to do with reproductive rights. We have Margaret Sanger in North America for the pill. It provides more women the control over when and how many children.

Wienberg: [Laughing] I have a few stories. I can share them. It is an issue, which is a challenge. We are attempting to approach it. Another major issue in Haiti is people have too many children. Birth control is free. If a woman goes to take birth control and can not afford it, they will give it to her. They have injections available, pills, something placed under the skin renewed every 5 fives, and hysterectomies.

Women can do this without anyone knowing about it. It is discreet and free of charge. The majority of people are not doing it. It is a huge challenge for us because you can help the family without the ability to support their children. Families with five kids. Four of them in school. We are the one sponsoring the education. All of the sudden, the family has another child.

[Laughing]

It is frustrating because they can not support their current children. It is something we have been working towards for the current families through LFBS. I am working on training staff to work on family planning and its importance. Hopefully, we will be able to do the new training in the new year with the families that LFBS works with in Haiti.

There is another woman. She approached the working group for child protection. She has 14 children. This woman is in her 40s. She does not have a husband or man living with her. She is a single mother with 14 kids, in a 1-bedroom home, and no job – no source of funding. She depends on handouts from people in the community.

The kids are malnourished and hospitalized, and the woman has no quality of life. She was not on birth control at the time of approaching us. She started birth control. However, that is not a unique case. My friend, who works in the public health department, explained a conversation with a young woman. A young woman had five children, she was 25-years-old. She had a kid each year of the marriage. He was asking her about birth control.

She did not want it. We asked, “Why not use a natural method? Why not have the husband pull out?” According to her, the young woman, half of the time, she was sound asleep and wakes up. Her husband is having sex with her. The young woman, 25, is becoming pregnant while asleep. Part of the issue is women do not feel in control of their own bodies.

I thought about the woman working with me. I work with them. How can people feel out of control of their bodies to such a degree? It terrifies me. We have been working on this with the community training on sexual assault. Often, there is a belief that when a couple marries the man owns the woman’s body. They truly believe this.

We have been doing community trainings, where a pastor will stand and say, “No, according to the Bible, when I marry my wife, I can do what I want with her body.” They do this in front of the whole community training. It is a mentality women accept too. They do not understand that it is rape if you say, “No,” to your husband. There are radio emissions about it. However, when woman marry, they do not feel control over their bodies.

If a woman is not able to have a child, it makes her have less worth to a man. Or, he will not want to marry her. There is a mentality of men. Men want to leave their legacy.

[Laughing]

They want to have a lot of kids.  If they have a lot of kids, those kids will look after you in old age. They forget about raising the kids first. It is a major part of the issue.

References

[David Truman]. (2016, March 9). Morgan. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWbgIF1NO5E.

[DevelopingPictures]. (2012, March 25). Sponsor a Child: Little Footprints Big Steps. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjzncB3HsmA.

[James Pierre]. (2016, April 5). Morgan Wienberg goes one-on-one with James Pierre. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1VMeKKTxkM.

[Morgan Wienberg]. (2014, June 3). Congratulations, FH Grad 2014!. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNQ7PB95aYA.

[Ryan Sheetz]. (2015, February 20). Little Footprints Big Steps. Retrieved fromhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9fdPx1srGI.

Bailey, G. (2013, December 31). Catch Yukoner Morgan Wienberg tomorrow on CBC’s Gracious Gifts. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/airplay/features/2013/12/31/catch-yukoner-morgan-wienberg-tomorrow-on-cbcs-gracious-gifts/.

Baker, R. (2016, March 4). PHOTOS Governor General recognizes exceptional Canadians in Vancouver. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/governor-general-recognizes-exceptional-canadians-in-vancouver-1.3476960.

Broadley, L. (2014, August 1). Meet the Yukoner reuniting Haitian ‘orphans’ with their families. Retrieved from http://globalnews.ca/news/1482839/one-yukoners-work-reuniting-haitian-orphans-with-their-families/.

Bruemmer, R. (2011, April 8). Haiti: Little Paul gets it done. Retrieved from http://www.montrealgazette.com/business/haiti+little+paul+gets+done/5214066/story.html.

CBC News. (2015, November 29). Morgan Wienberg awarded Meritorious Service Cross for work in Haiti. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/morgan-wienberg-awarded-meritorious-service-cross-for-work-in-haiti-1.3340295.

ca. (n.d.). 23-year-old receives Meritorious Service Cross Medal. Retrieved from http://canadaam.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=804018&playlistId=1.2769055&binId=1.815911&playlistPageNum=1&binPageNum=1.

ca Staff. (2016, February 8). 23-year-old awarded Meritorious Service Cross for work in Haiti. Retrieved from http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/23-year-old-awarded-meritorious-service-cross-for-work-in-haiti-1.2769013.

Dolphin, M. (2015, December 4). Yukoner’s work in Haiti draws governor general’s attention. Retrieved from http://www.yukon-news.com/life/yukoners-work-in-haiti-draws-governor-generals-attention/.

Gillmore, M. (2012, July 18). Helping to reunite families in Haiti. Retrieved from http://yukon-news.com/life/helping-to-reunite-families-in-haiti.

Gillmore, W. (2013, August 16). Wienberg gives New York a glimpse of Haiti. Retrieved from http://www.yukon-news.com/news/wienberg-gives-new-york-a-glimpse-of-haiti/.

Gjerstad, S. (2014, April 8). Morgan (22) vier livet sitt til å gjenforene barn med foreldrene sine på Haiti. Retrieved from http://www.tv2.no/a/5852686/.

Joannou, A. (2016, March 7). Governor general gives nod to Yukon’s champion of Haitian children. Retrieved from http://www.yukon-news.com/news/governor-general-gives-nod-to-yukons-champion-of-haitian-children/.

Langham, M. (2012, October 10). Just Like Us: An Interview with Morgan Wienberg of Little Footprints, Big Steps. Retrieved from http://aconspiracyofhope.blogspot.ca/2012/10/just-like-us-interview-with-morgan.html.

Little Footprints, Big Steps. (2016). Little Footprints, Big Steps. Retrieved from https://www.littlefootprintsbigsteps.com.

Neel, T. (2013, May 16). Reaching the Hearts of Children in Need. Retrieved from http://whatsupyukon.com/Lifestyle/making-a-difference/reaching-the-hearts-of-children-in-need/#sthash.YCSvg1aM.oVLAQE3j.dpbs.

Peacock, A. (2016, February 27). Haiti has her heart. http://www.kelownadailycourier.ca/news/local_news/article_beb828d0-ddcf-11e5-851b-8b09487f61ce.html?mode=story.

(2014, July 8). Joven canadiense decide gastar sus ahorros en rescatar niños de Haití. Retrieved from http://www.elpais.com.uy/vida-actual/joven-canadiense-reune-huerfanos-haitianos.html.

Rodgers, E. (2015, January 12). Meet the 22-Year-Old Who Skipped Out on College—to Offer a Helping Hand in Haiti. Retrieved from http://www.takepart.com/article/2015/01/12/meet-morgan-wienberg-little-foot-big-step.

Schott, B.Y. (2012, September 13). Making a Difference One Child at a Time. Retrieved from http://whatsupyukon.com/Lifestyle/making-a-difference/making-a-difference-one-child-at-a-time/#sthash.CeS656Xm.2r1eJsAW.dpbs.

Shiel, A. (2011, November 17). McGill students host third annual TEDxMcGill even. Retrieved from http://www.mcgilldaily.com/2011/11/mcgill-students-host-third-annual-tedxmcgill-event/.

Thompson, J. (2011, December 23). Helping Haiti for the holidays. Retrieved from http://yukon-news.com/life/helping-haiti-for-the-holidays.

Thompson, J. (August 12). Hope and hard lessons in Haiti. Retrieved from http://yukon-news.com/life/hope-and-hard-lessons-in-haiti.

Thomson Reuters. (2014, July 27). 22-year-old Yukoner reunites Haitian ‘orphans’ with parents. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/22-year-old-yukoner-reunites-haitian-orphans-with-parents-1.2719559.

Waddell, S. (2015, November 27). For decorated Yukoner, home is now Haiti. Retrieved from http://www.whitehorsestar.com/News/for-decorated-yukoner-home-is-now-haiti.

Whitehorse Star. (2016, March 2). Yukoners to receive honours from Governor General. Retrieved from http://www.whitehorsestar.com/News/yukoners-to-receive-honours-from-governor-general.

Wienberg, M. (2013, November 22). Age Is Not an Obstacle in Changing the World. Retrieved from http://www.huffingtonpost.com/morgan-wienberg/age-is-not-an-obstacle_b_4324563.html.

Wienberg, M. (2014, January 23). Courage of a Mother. Retrieved from http://whatsupyukon.com/Lifestyle/making-a-difference/courage-of-a-mother/#sthash.hy1QzF0S.ZA1StSZz.dpbs.

Woodcock, R. (2013, September 26). Back to School in Haiti. Retrieved from http://whatsupyukon.com/Lifestyle/making-a-difference/back-to-school-in-haiti/#sthash.TMqQNkLX.dpbs.

Yukon News. (2013, February 6). Incredible acts of kindness in Haiti. Retrieved from http://yukon-news.com/letters-opinions/incredible-acts-of-kindness-in-haiti.

Appendix I: Photographs

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Appendix II: Footnotes

[1] Co-Founder, Coordinator, and Head of Haiti Operations, Little Footprints Big Steps International Development Organization.

[2] Individual Publication Date: September 22, 2017 at www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-morgan-wienberg-m-s-c-part-four; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2018 at www.in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Meritorious Service Cross (M.S.C.), Government of Canada; Queen’s Diamond Jubilee Medal; Governor General of Canada Academic Awards; Yukon Commissioner Award; Finalist, Young Women Impacting Social Justice, The Berger-Marks Foundation; Rotary International Paul Harris Fellowship Award for Humanitarian Impact, Rotary International; Keynote Speaker (2013), United Nations Youth Assembly.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Morgan Wienberg.

[5] About Us (2016) states:

1. Child Well-being and Development

Our child well-being and development program focuses on literacy, numeracy and vocational learning. LFBS runs a Transitional Safehouse for those children who temporarily cannot live at home, or do not have a home.  We offer protection and healing of children victimized by abuse, neglect, exploitation and homelessness.

2. Family and Community Development

Our outreach program helps families receive the training and resources they need to begin a sustainable source of income through micro-business start-up, farming or a trade.   Earning money means that families can stay together or reunite.  Education and opportunity for self-sufficiency and sound housing helps break the cycle of poverty, poor health, abandonment in Haiti by helping build strong families and communities and keeping families together.

3. Advocacy of Child Rights

LFBS works in collaboration with local authorities and media to take a stand for the rights of children and parents. We raise awareness against child abandonment in vulnerable communities and help victims of abuse to find their voice to speak out.

WE restore vulnerable Haitian children and youth to health, family and community. OUR programs emphasize direct relationship with Haitian people. WE act to empower rather than replace families and local social structures. OUR focus is on sustained change in the lives of the people we work with. ENHANCING the capacity of locals to create change means that we embrace partnerships and cooperative relationships with local authorities and other agencies.

Little Footprints, Big Steps. (2016). About Us. Retrieved from https://www.littlefootprintsbigsteps.com/about-us/.

Appendix III: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part Four) [Online].September 2017; 15(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-morgan-wienberg-m-s-c-part-four.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, September 22). An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part Four). Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-morgan-wienberg-m-s-c-part-four.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part Four). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A, September. 2017. <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-morgan-wienberg-m-s-c-part-four>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-morgan-wienberg-m-s-c-part-four.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A (September 2017). www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-morgan-wienberg-m-s-c-part-four.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part Four)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 15.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-morgan-wienberg-m-s-c-part-four>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part Four)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 15.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-morgan-wienberg-m-s-c-part-four.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 15.A (2017):September. 2017. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-morgan-wienberg-m-s-c-part-four>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part Four)[Internet]. (2017, September; 15(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-morgan-wienberg-m-s-c-part-four.

License and Copyright

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In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2017-09-15

An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part Three)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 15.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Eleven)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: September 22, 2017

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,688

ISSN 2369-6885

1

Abstract

An interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. She discusses: ethic that drives the work; benefits in interpersonal interactions with Haitians through speaking English and Creole; partnerships with organizations; tasks and responsibilities as the Co-Founder, Coordinator, and Head of Haiti Operations for Little Footprints Big Steps International Development Organization; best personal aspects of the position; most emotionally ‘taxing’ part of the work for her; relevant preparation from high school for the humanitarian pursuit; easiest and hardest aspects of coordination of a diverse, multi-disciplinary team; strengths in a diverse team; main differences between Haiti and Canada and being culturally sensitive; and benefits and downsides of each culture.

Keywords: Humanitarianism, Little Footprints Big Steps International Development Organization, Morgan Wienberg.

An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C.: Co-Founder, Coordinator, and Head of Haiti Operations, Little Footprints Big Steps International Development Organization (Part Three)[1],[2],[3],[4],

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been edited for clarity and readability.*​

*Images in Appendix I: Photographs.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What is the ethic that drives this for you?

Morgan Wienberg: [Laughing] I see all people as having the same rights. The fact that these children can be so stripped of their rights. I do not feel I can accept it. I need to do something about it. I am reminded of the conditions of the kids in the beginning. It is upsetting that children who are supposed to be protected by society can be badly hurt and abused by the adults.

Adults who are supposed to be protecting them. That many people can see it and accept it. Part of the issue is people go to Haiti and, because it is Haiti, will accept that this child is emaciated or too weak to stand up. Or that the adult is whipping the child with a metal cord. Child rights are universal. There’s the Convention on the Rights of the Child.

If a country is not developed or has some cultural undertones, that does not change the Convention on the Rights of the Child. We should not accept the ill-treatment of the young. They need more support to be implementing the Convention on the Rights of the Child. Some people when they go to Haiti accept and forget it because “it’s Haiti.”

2. Jacobsen: You speak English and Creole. How does this benefit interpersonal interactions with Haitians?

My speaking English and Creole influenced my abilities to better understand Haitian culture and the things happening at the moment, especially with street children in particular. I learned about street children by sitting with them in the afternoon and talking with them. I had a communication barrier, which made building relationships and trust difficult.

I dealt with a fair share of deception and corruption. My speaking the language helps me learn my lesson or be aware of risks, especially of repeats of deception and corruption. In terms of managing staff and being fully communicating expectations with them, and to understand their perspective, it plays a huge role. I cannot express it.

Even in the integration into the community, I needed to understand the culture and family dynamics. I would not know without knowing Creole. When I went to Haiti in 2010, I knew French and got by with it. When I went to the orphanage in 2011, the children didn’t speak French. I began to speak Creole by communicating with them.

My understanding of the real situation came from speaking the language and with the children. They spoke of the families back home. The kids could be coming to orphanages for years and the parents would not know the truth. I found out about the situation for the kids and their families, and the details of the abuse, is from the children talking to me.

3. Jacobsen: Did learning Creole/Kreyol improve trust and camaraderie with Haitians?

It makes me stand out. Haitians are surprised when I speak to them. I have been able to present in a court house, in the legal system, to participate in meetings with other local authorities, and so on. I am able to fully express myself. It helps them understand my objectives and way of thinking. In the beginning, when they don’t fully understand my objectives, I met hostility from the authorities.

They were better able to understand what I am doing. We are partners now. When people in the community see me speaking Creole, they like it.

4. Jacobsen: You mentioned partnerships. What organizations?

We partner with the local child protection authorities. In particular, IBESR (Institut du Bien-Etre Social et de Recherches), which is the equivalent of Haitian social services. So, they are the child protection authority. Other government departments include the Ministry for Women’s Rights, Ministry for Handicapped People’s Rights, and Social Affairs.

All of those institutions are part of a network, which is the Groupe du Travail pour la Protection des Enfants (GTPE-Sud) in Haiti. It is a regional network that covers the entire Southern department of Haiti, but it’s based on Les Cayes. This group was originally formed in 2010 following the earthquake as the cluster group for child protection. Now, it has a different name. LFBS is part of the group. Same with the governmental departments.[5]

We have meetings with IBESR once a month, even every two weeks. We work with IBESR about once-a-week. Also, with the Child Protection Brigade of the Police, we help each other out. In particular, where a child has been sexually assaulted, we will be working with the police and the Ministry for Women’s Rights. Other organizations focus on children in conflict with the law.

We work with them, for years now. We help them work with specific case studies. They offered us psychologists to see some children, which we have in the program. They have a social worker doing weekly training with my staff. They let us use their space for different activities. Similar to Haitian social services. Before we had a truck, they let us use their vehicle.

Now, we let them use our vehicle. They help us with children. They place children in the state houses. For example, last week, IBESR had a lost girl. We took her into our girls’ home until they could reunite her with her family. We have good, close working partnerships with the organizations. We have collaborative initiatives too. One main initiative is community training for prevention of sexual assault.

We will go into rural communities and train people about sexual abuse, how they can protect children, and how to react if you’re a victim or someone that you know is a victim. We create committees in those communities. So, community members can keep with the initiative and in contact with us. We are doing this as a group.

5. Jacobsen: You remain the Co-Founder, Coordinator, and Head of Haiti Operations for Little Footprints Big Steps International Development Organization. What tasks and responsibilities come with this station?

When I started the organization, it was one outreach worker and me. Literally, I would walk with the child to their family, sitting down, having meetings with the family, doing mediation, and helping the child purchase school supplies and go to the hospital. Now, we work to make the support more sustainable, able to expand, and less dependent on me.

Now, I coordinate staff schedules. My staff does those things. They work on their tasks. I do the follow-up afterward. Also, I coordinate with partners. If there is a particularly vulnerable family, I will ask a social worker from social services to accompany my staff to work with that child. Now, I focus on coordinating staff activities in following up with the kid and working on longer-term development or expansion of the programs.

However, I see first-hand things with the kids. My personal connection with the children motivates me. If I was the only one rather than my staff doing the work, I would be limiting the number of people potentially impacted.

6. Jacobsen: What seem the best aspects of this position on a personal level?

I am able to see the growth and empowerment of people. When working intimately with them, you see them every day. I see growth and empowerment with the kids. I look at staff at times. It motivates me. I see them grow. I see them passionate about child protection issues, too. Also, it is exciting to get involved in the big picture in everything we can accomplish.

We gain momentum in working with others. The biggest thing that I love most about this position is dreaming big and making those dreams a reality.

7. Jacobsen: Big dreams are big risks. What seems like the most emotionally ‘taxing’ part for you?

It is extremely, extremely stressful. I struggle with choosing. You have to choose. It is a huge privilege to be able to choose to help someone. However, there are many, many people asking and needing help. You have to choose the person. It is a constant battle within me. You can not anticipate who will advance the most with the support given to them by you. It is difficult.

Sometimes, there are kids who abuse the support in the beginning. Believing in the child, when they do not believe in themselves, it is part of what will result in change. At the same time, in choosing to help the child, you are telling others “no.” Constantly, I wonder if these are the right decisions among competing ones. Also, who am I to choose over people’s lives?

The task is immense. I have to make the decision. It is hard. Also, the trauma for the kids. It might be over. However, it’s hard, emotionally. It is a slow process for the kids to heal from trauma.

8. Jacobsen: You mentioned some board member work before. What other preparation from high school was relevant from this humanitarian pursuit?

Everything from childhood prepared me. Also, it is not something that you could have looked at and prepared yourself for, or have expectations. I had the extreme motivation and inner strength (the biggest thing) to be able to do this. In knowing the activities of the board, my work seeing the meetings help me. I can know what to present.

9. Through the coordination of Little Footprints Big Steps International Development Organization, you work with numerous personalities.[6] What seems like the easiest and hardest aspects of coordination of a diverse, multi-disciplinary team?

My staff on the ground and the board of directors are different groups. They deal with different aspects of the organization. I am the on tying them together. I feed information to both of them. It’s interesting to me. It is unique to be able to connect the two different worlds. It is powerful, especially for the staff on-the-ground to be heard and considered on a team with people like Pamela Hine.

It can be difficult to communicate the reality on-the-ground to the Board of Directors at times. It is hard to give a full picture.

[Laughing]

At the same time, they are understanding and encouraging. With the local staff, there are some cultural challenges at times. I have been attempting to focus on their wellbeing. I went to a conference in India earlier this year.

One theme was about caring for the caretakers. When you think about it, they have been through trauma, work through stressful days, and the kids are not always respectful. I want to focus on the wellbeing and training of the local staff. I have seen them be more independent, motivated, and engaged because they feel value and potential for themselves.

I have worked closely with the local staff compared to the board of directors. I communicate with them more because I am in primarily Haiti. However, the staff needs the constant presence and communication more than the board of directors.

10. Jacobsen: You noted the difficulties run one way. Not from local workers in Haiti to the board members, but from the board members understanding the situation on the ground for the LFBS staff. That’s an interesting note. If you have a diverse team split in team streams, what strengths does this diverse team bring to the organization?

Definitely, there is a strength. My local staff completely understand the culture and the reality of what we are dealing with in Haiti. I have the international board. They have a level of education and contacts, and perception. That can be applied to Haiti. When you combine the two, it works really well. When you bring people on board, you are developing contacts Haitians would not think about for LFBS.

I am being fed contacts from the international side and am able to bring that to LFBS staff. I can then apply this in a culturally sensitive way. It is subtle. We can bring unique methods and contacts, but make them work for the community.

11. With respect to cultural sensitivity and differences, or a careful ‘trotting’ around or between the two, what are the main differences between Haiti and Canada? How would you be culturally sensitive?

Those are some difficult questions. To be culturally sensitive, it is about being open-minded and recognizing when going to Haiti s a different culture and system. You should not have expectations in Haiti as if it’s North America. You should be willing to learn, pick up on the culture, and see how people interact here. That can be ‘easier said than done’. People take many expectations from North America.

It is about bringing something to Haiti rather than learning and taking in Haiti. The biggest difference is communication. I find communication different. Communication has been something work with the local staff a bit. Another major difference is people in Haiti value relationships over time. For instance, if you are in a meeting, and come across someone with an issue, a Haitian would not even think twice about stopping and talking to that person to help them with the issue, and then arrive late to the meeting.

They would not think twice about it. A North American might feel stressed about being 15 minutes late. It depends on the person. (Laughs)

[Laughing]

In North America, we are time focused. In Haiti, they are relationship focused. It has its strengths. (Laughs) It has its difficult moments as well.

12. Jacobsen: With time, it makes the society more productive. With relationships, it benefits mental well-being. Downsides are the reduction of well-being and lost time, respectively.

It is something that I notice coming back to North America. It is part of the enjoyment and connectedness with Haitian society (more than North America at times). Human interactions are lacking at times in North America. We have materialistic values. That has taken the place of human contact and interaction. In Haiti, if something happens to me in the middle of the street, even if I did not know the area, I know 20 people will work to help me.

In North America, you can be part of a community in North America and not be a part of their life, and so be ignored by them – or they are stressed about meeting timelines. I can be affected by it. It works well with LFBS work. When you’re working with families attempting to build trust with these traumatized children, it is about the relationships and the interactions.

Often much more than timelines.

References

[David Truman]. (2016, March 9). Morgan. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWbgIF1NO5E.

[DevelopingPictures]. (2012, March 25). Sponsor a Child: Little Footprints Big Steps. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjzncB3HsmA.

[James Pierre]. (2016, April 5). Morgan Wienberg goes one-on-one with James Pierre. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1VMeKKTxkM.

[Morgan Wienberg]. (2014, June 3). Congratulations, FH Grad 2014!. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNQ7PB95aYA.

[Ryan Sheetz]. (2015, February 20). Little Footprints Big Steps. Retrieved fromhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9fdPx1srGI.

Bailey, G. (2013, December 31). Catch Yukoner Morgan Wienberg tomorrow on CBC’s Gracious Gifts. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/airplay/features/2013/12/31/catch-yukoner-morgan-wienberg-tomorrow-on-cbcs-gracious-gifts/.

Baker, R. (2016, March 4). PHOTOS Governor General recognizes exceptional Canadians in Vancouver. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/governor-general-recognizes-exceptional-canadians-in-vancouver-1.3476960.

Broadley, L. (2014, August 1). Meet the Yukoner reuniting Haitian ‘orphans’ with their families. Retrieved from http://globalnews.ca/news/1482839/one-yukoners-work-reuniting-haitian-orphans-with-their-families/.

Bruemmer, R. (2011, April 8). Haiti: Little Paul gets it done. Retrieved from http://www.montrealgazette.com/business/haiti+little+paul+gets+done/5214066/story.html.

CBC News. (2015, November 29). Morgan Wienberg awarded Meritorious Service Cross for work in Haiti. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/morgan-wienberg-awarded-meritorious-service-cross-for-work-in-haiti-1.3340295.

ca. (n.d.). 23-year-old receives Meritorious Service Cross Medal. Retrieved from http://canadaam.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=804018&playlistId=1.2769055&binId=1.815911&playlistPageNum=1&binPageNum=1.

ca Staff. (2016, February 8). 23-year-old awarded Meritorious Service Cross for work in Haiti. Retrieved from http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/23-year-old-awarded-meritorious-service-cross-for-work-in-haiti-1.2769013.

Dolphin, M. (2015, December 4). Yukoner’s work in Haiti draws governor general’s attention. Retrieved from http://www.yukon-news.com/life/yukoners-work-in-haiti-draws-governor-generals-attention/.

Gillmore, M. (2012, July 18). Helping to reunite families in Haiti. Retrieved from http://yukon-news.com/life/helping-to-reunite-families-in-haiti.

Gillmore, W. (2013, August 16). Wienberg gives New York a glimpse of Haiti. Retrieved from http://www.yukon-news.com/news/wienberg-gives-new-york-a-glimpse-of-haiti/.

Gjerstad, S. (2014, April 8). Morgan (22) vier livet sitt til å gjenforene barn med foreldrene sine på Haiti. Retrieved from http://www.tv2.no/a/5852686/.

Joannou, A. (2016, March 7). Governor general gives nod to Yukon’s champion of Haitian children. Retrieved from http://www.yukon-news.com/news/governor-general-gives-nod-to-yukons-champion-of-haitian-children/.

Langham, M. (2012, October 10). Just Like Us: An Interview with Morgan Wienberg of Little Footprints, Big Steps. Retrieved from http://aconspiracyofhope.blogspot.ca/2012/10/just-like-us-interview-with-morgan.html.

Little Footprints, Big Steps. (2016). Little Footprints, Big Steps. Retrieved from https://www.littlefootprintsbigsteps.com.

Neel, T. (2013, May 16). Reaching the Hearts of Children in Need. Retrieved from http://whatsupyukon.com/Lifestyle/making-a-difference/reaching-the-hearts-of-children-in-need/#sthash.YCSvg1aM.oVLAQE3j.dpbs.

Peacock, A. (2016, February 27). Haiti has her heart. http://www.kelownadailycourier.ca/news/local_news/article_beb828d0-ddcf-11e5-851b-8b09487f61ce.html?mode=story.

(2014, July 8). Joven canadiense decide gastar sus ahorros en rescatar niños de Haití. Retrieved from http://www.elpais.com.uy/vida-actual/joven-canadiense-reune-huerfanos-haitianos.html.

Rodgers, E. (2015, January 12). Meet the 22-Year-Old Who Skipped Out on College—to Offer a Helping Hand in Haiti. Retrieved from http://www.takepart.com/article/2015/01/12/meet-morgan-wienberg-little-foot-big-step.

Schott, B.Y. (2012, September 13). Making a Difference One Child at a Time. Retrieved from http://whatsupyukon.com/Lifestyle/making-a-difference/making-a-difference-one-child-at-a-time/#sthash.CeS656Xm.2r1eJsAW.dpbs.

Shiel, A. (2011, November 17). McGill students host third annual TEDxMcGill even. Retrieved from http://www.mcgilldaily.com/2011/11/mcgill-students-host-third-annual-tedxmcgill-event/.

Thompson, J. (2011, December 23). Helping Haiti for the holidays. Retrieved from http://yukon-news.com/life/helping-haiti-for-the-holidays.

Thompson, J. (August 12). Hope and hard lessons in Haiti. Retrieved from http://yukon-news.com/life/hope-and-hard-lessons-in-haiti.

Thomson Reuters. (2014, July 27). 22-year-old Yukoner reunites Haitian ‘orphans’ with parents. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/22-year-old-yukoner-reunites-haitian-orphans-with-parents-1.2719559.

Waddell, S. (2015, November 27). For decorated Yukoner, home is now Haiti. Retrieved from http://www.whitehorsestar.com/News/for-decorated-yukoner-home-is-now-haiti.

Whitehorse Star. (2016, March 2). Yukoners to receive honours from Governor General. Retrieved from http://www.whitehorsestar.com/News/yukoners-to-receive-honours-from-governor-general.

Wienberg, M. (2013, November 22). Age Is Not an Obstacle in Changing the World. Retrieved from http://www.huffingtonpost.com/morgan-wienberg/age-is-not-an-obstacle_b_4324563.html.

Wienberg, M. (2014, January 23). Courage of a Mother. Retrieved from http://whatsupyukon.com/Lifestyle/making-a-difference/courage-of-a-mother/#sthash.hy1QzF0S.ZA1StSZz.dpbs.

Woodcock, R. (2013, September 26). Back to School in Haiti. Retrieved from http://whatsupyukon.com/Lifestyle/making-a-difference/back-to-school-in-haiti/#sthash.TMqQNkLX.dpbs.

Yukon News. (2013, February 6). Incredible acts of kindness in Haiti. Retrieved from http://yukon-news.com/letters-opinions/incredible-acts-of-kindness-in-haiti.

Appendix I: Photographs

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Appendix II: Footnotes

 

[1] Co-Founder, Coordinator, and Head of Haiti Operations, Little Footprints Big Steps International Development Organization.

[2] Individual Publication Date: September 15, 2017 at www.in-sightjournal.com/morgan-wienberg-part-three; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2018 at www.in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues.

[3] Meritorious Service Cross (M.S.C.), Government of Canada; Queen’s Diamond Jubilee Medal; Governor General of Canada Academic Awards; Yukon Commissioner Award; Finalist, Young Women Impacting Social Justice, The Berger-Marks Foundation; Rotary International Paul Harris Fellowship Award for Humanitarian Impact, Rotary International; Keynote Speaker (2013), United Nations Youth Assembly; Finalist (2012), Edna Award, International Women’s Rights.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Morgan Wienberg.

[5] Co-Founder/Head of Haiti Operations: MORGAN WIENBERG, M.S.C. (2016) states:

Raised in Canada’s far northern city of Whitehorse, Yukon, throughout her youth, Morgan volunteered with non-profit organizations and developed an all-consuming interest in human rights. In 2010, six months after a 7.0-magnitude earthquake struck Haiti, this high school valedictorian traded her snow boots for sandals and set off for the devastated country. What was meant to be a short trip changed her life – and countless others – forever.

Morgan volunteered in an orphanage and found the conditions to be appalling. She witnessed children that were neglected, beaten, and starved. In some cases, children were used as slaves or sold, as if they were property. Although it was sorely needed, the children were denied medical attention. Morgan discovered that children had been sent to the orphanage by their parents in the mistaken belief that their children would be offered food, education, and loving care. Morgan began to work towards reuniting children with their families.

In 2011, Morgan co-founded Little Footprints, Big Steps (LFBS). Morgan continues to live in Haiti, leading the organization with integrity, creativity and perseverance. Forging partnerships and collaborations with other non-profits and with Haitian government; spearheading initiatives and piloting programs; hiring and guiding Haitian staff; managing the program administration; tirelessly pouring love and encouragement into all of the children and families that come her way.

Little Footprints, Big Steps. (2016). Co-Founder/Head of Haiti Operations: MORGAN WIENBERG, M.S.C.. Retrieved from http://www.littlefootprintsbigsteps.com/about-us/meet-mogan/.

[6] CTVNews.ca. (n.d.). 23-year-old receives Meritorious Service Cross Medal. Retrieved from http://canadaam.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=804018&playlistId=1.2769055&binId=1.815911&playlistPageNum=1&binPageNum=1.

[7] Ibid.

Appendix III: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part Three) [Online].September 2017; 15(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/morgan-wienberg-part-three.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, September 15). An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part Three). Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/morgan-wienberg-part-three.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part Three). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A, September. 2017. <www.in-sightjournal.com/morgan-wienberg-part-three>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/morgan-wienberg-part-three.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A (September 2017). www.in-sightjournal.com/morgan-wienberg-part-three.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 15.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/morgan-wienberg-part-three>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 15.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/morgan-wienberg-part-three.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 15.A (2017):September. 2017. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/morgan-wienberg-part-three>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part Three)[Internet]. (2017, September; 15(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/morgan-wienberg-part-two.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2017-09-08

An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part Two)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 15.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Eleven)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: September 8, 2017

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,875

ISSN 2369-6885

1

Abstract

An interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. She discusses: jobs to save money for Little Footprints Big Steps International Development Organization; origination and development of the relationship with the nurse; meaning of parental support and encouragement; parental support in spite of parent hesitancy about travels of their child; responsibilities with public recognition; content and purpose of the film Morgan’s Kids; meaning of the exposure; and well-meaning, but misguided, foreigners giving aid, volunteer time, support, and exposure in the media to corrupt organizations.

Keywords: Humanitarianism, Little Footprints Big Steps International Development Organization, Morgan Wienberg.

An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C.: Co-Founder, Coordinator, and Head of Haiti Operations, Little Footprints Big Steps International Development Organization (Part Two)[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been edited for clarity and readability.*​

*Images in Appendix I: Photographs.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Little Footprints Big Steps International Development Organization (LFBS) is a registered charity, which emerged out of this endeavour based on collaboration with a nurse, Sarah Wilson. However, you needed finance. You mentioned one job. You worked three jobs to save enough money. What two other jobs?

Morgan Wienberg: I had about $25,000 saved for university at the time. I started with personal savings. I went in 2010 for 2 ½ months. Before I left to return to Canada, I decided to come back. I deferred university. I went back to Canada, but worked 3 jobs for 6 months before going back to Haiti. I intended to go to Haiti. I went to work to save additional funds.

I worked at a bakery. It was a bakery, restaurant, and yoga studio in one. I worked there for a few years. The community gave generous tips. I worked at the local animal shelter looking after the dogs, e.g. cleaning the cages. If I worked at the bakery starting at 5 in the morning, I would work at the animal shelter in the afternoon. Also, I did a lot of babysitting. I worked in a women’s gym through exercise classes and so on. I cleaned houses for neighbours too.

2. Jacobsen: How did this relationship with the nurse originate and develop for you?

Wienberg: My first time in Haiti, in 2010, staying in a compound with Mission of Hope. There many other volunteers there. I was there for 2 ½ months. During those 2 ½ months, Sarah Wilson came for a few weeks. She was working in the medical clinic. I was going off to the orphanage. We were sleeping in the same living quarters. We met that way.

She visited the orphanage a couple of times. I tried to get medical teams to see the sick kids. She saw the orphanage at that point. Further down the road, when I returned to Haiti and was working with the orphanage, we kept in touch on social media. She followed me. When I was back in Haiti living in the orphanage with the kids, she sent an email.

She said, “I’ve been following what you’ve been doing. You need support. I did this course. Do you want create an organization to support what you’ve been doing?” Of course, I said, “Yes!” We completed the forms to become a formal charity.

3. Jacobsen: Your mother remains part of Little Footprints Big Steps International Development Organization as the Director/Chair of the Board. She supports this endeavour. Many mothers, and fathers, might feel hesitant to permit their gifted child to pursue this endeavour. For instance, the possible risk of sexual assault or abuse in a foreign country. What does parental support and encouragement mean to you?

Wienberg: She is a huge part of the organization. In the beginning, I had to do fundraising with donors. She took that on for us. It allows me to be in Haiti for the long-term. I can work with the local staff and develop programs while here. In the beginning, I wasn’t able to do it. I had to focus on fundraising and communicating with sponsors.

4. Jacobsen: She has graduate level training relevant to this, too.

Wienberg: Yes.

5. Jacobsen: Many parents with gifted children or a gifted child, even a child for that matter, might feel hesitant to permit their child to pursue this endeavour.

Wienberg: [Laughing].

6. What does that parental support mean to you?

Wienberg: It has allowed me to succeed because she is there for me if I need her. There are instances where talking to mom is a comfort. At the same time, she does not restrict me. I never knew that I would have thought that I could have accomplished what I have or influence this number of people. I never would have been able to push myself or explore capabilities if she had limited me.

It is something extremely hard as a parent. You want to protect your child. At the same time, there are physical risks, a new country, being on your own, emotional pain and struggles, and so on. Knowing that, it can be hard sometimes. At the same time, going through it, I grew a lot and achieved more than I realized is possible. As a parent, it is allowing the child to grow and learn, and become an individual and explore their capabilities.

Also, it is being there to support them. If they do need to call on you, they can call on you and are there for them. It has been hard for her. In the beginning, I didn’t communicate much with her. I didn’t have internet access. The living conditions, I didn’t let her know about it. It might or might not have changed things. After the first couple of times, I was sick coming back to Canada.

Her allowing me to pursue these things was self-less and truly supporting me rather than reacting based on her own feelings, which would have limited me.

7. Jacobsen: You have profiles and representation in numerous outlets including text publications and video interviews.[5],[6],[7],[8],[9],[10],[11],[12],[13],[14],[15],[16],[17],[18],[19],[20],[21],[22],[23],[24],[25],[26],[27],[28],[29],[30],[31],[32],[33],[34],[35],[36],[37] What responsibilities come with this public recognition?

Wienberg: It’s not only being in the media, internationally. For example, in the community in Haiti (Les Cayes), I am well-known to them. I represent an organization. It is a situation where every single thing I do is being watched as a representation of an organization. I have to make decisions, conscientiously. On an international level, when I go back to Whitehorse, it can be hard to relax or have ‘down time’.

It is about responding, community events, and so on. Everyone recognizes you. It is wonderful to have the recognition. It is encouraging with the support, but it can be hard to have personal time. With decisions made by me, I have to think about the influence on the people supported by me and the organization. Oftentimes, I am making decisions on a representative-of-the-organization level. People are counting on me.

8. Jacobsen: Jimmy Arrant and Ryan Sheetz work on Morgan’s Kids.[38] A documentary film about the work by you. What’s the content and purpose of the film?

Wienberg: The purpose of the film is to raise awareness about Little Footprints Big Steps and the kids in the program, who I work with in Haiti. Also, the larger theme of the orphanage system and family reunification. Family care is much better for vulnerable children. That is the huge issue in Haiti. Also, it is an issue in other developing countries. International aid will support orphanages and institutions.

That is in opposition to family care. It is to raise awareness about the general concept. Multiple international entities do not know. The international community is unaware. The content of the film is based in Haiti with focus on the families, children, and my staff. Jimmy and Ryan came to Haiti 3 or 4 times. They visited and spent time in the safe houses.

They visited families with the staff. Also, they came to Miami, when I travelled with one of the former children. The child was having surgery, Ysaac. I brought him to Miami twice for surgery. It was Ysaac’s first time travelling to the States. Ryan and Jimmy were there at the airport for the arrival. They captured the child’s first experiences travelling.

They were there for the first surgery. They captured that part of the story. It is a powerful example of the possible change when a child’s environment changes. He’s a great example for everything we work for here. Ryan and Jimmy came to Whitehorse, Yukon to film the community. It was to look into the influences on me, which lead to personal accomplishments. They have thorough coverage of the whole story.

For example, with some of the parents with children that were in the corrupt orphanage, the parents went to reclaim them from the orphanage because of the mistreatment. We have stories with the parents explaining the reason for giving their children to the orphanage. They talk about how things changed when the children came back.

It includes messages coming from the parents and children themselves.

9. Jacobsen: What does this exposure mean to you?

Wienberg: I am excited to have their stories heard by others because many children have been taught that they need to be silent to protect themselves. I have been trying to teach them their power to influence others and to help others, especially with them in a better situation now. It is an example of the negative things happening to them that hurt them can be used to tell the stories, raise awareness, and help other people.

These children and families telling the stories have the opportunity for exposure and influence others. It makes me incredibly proud and excited about them. Also, I am hoping this will continue the shift. There is a shift in Haiti on the institutionalization at the moment. It is moving away from orphanages and back to family-based care, e.g., foster homes. I want the rest of the global community to be aware and support of it.

There is a lot of work to be done on raising awareness that the children face exploitation and abuse in orphanages, which is supported by foreigners. I hope this will accomplish raising awareness.

10. Jacobsen: What about well-meaning, but misguided, foreigners giving aid, volunteer time, support, and exposure in the media to these corrupt organizations?

Wienberg: That allows them to thrive. It is common – so incredibly common. This orphanage was identified by the local authorities as ‘Code Red’ and needing to be shut down. Children died inside. Children were being trafficked. The owner offered five kids to me for $800 each. There are children whose parents refuse to give them up. The orphanages took them, kidnapped them.

There were at least 6 different foreign Non-Governmental Organizations (NGOs) supporting the orphanage with money, donations, and time. It was perpetuating the problem. This woman was able to run her ‘business’, the orphanage, for over 20 years. I advocated to shut it down. Hundreds of thousands of people, foreigners, visited the orphanage before me.

They cried over kids’ conditions, but did not do anything to change or question it. It is like you said before. They are “well-intentioned.” It is a vicious cycle. If the kids are more sick, then the more urgently foreigners will want to help them. This has the orphanage owner neglecting the kids, keeping them as sick as possible, keeping them barefoot and with as little clothing as possible, and so on.

That will get more support. If you are at an orphanage with well-fed, well-dressed kids, and not emotionally damaged and lacking attachment, if you walk into an orphanage and the kids seem healthy and are not crying, you will not feel as pushed, urgently, to give support or aid to the orphanage. However, that orphanage is taking better care of the children.

It is counterintuitive. Those orphanages that treat children worse will get more aid. That makes orphanages good business to have there. Also, it is undermining the efforts of local authorities, which is another issue. Foreign aid coming into Haiti does not approach the government or the local authorities because there is a level of mistrust and the perception of the Haitian government as corrupt.

I have dealt with corruption. I have developed a strong relationship with local government institutions and have worked together with the police. There is corruption, but it is not all of them. The social services have social workers who have not been paid for 3 months or do not have a contract. They go to work, even on Saturdays.

You would not find that in North America. So, the government workers are genuinely committed. They are committed to the children. If the local government is looking to shut down the orphanage and international NGOs come in without approaching the authorities and support the orphanage, then they are undermining the efforts of the local authorities.

There is a huge need for increased communication between NGOs coming into the country and the local authorities, which requires a level of open-mindedness and trust for international entities to work with the local authorities. The only way to address the issues is on a long-term scale. If it is all NGOs coming in here, and if we do not work to increase the capacity of the local authorities, then we’re working on a short-term solution.

We need to work on a long-term solution.

References

[David Truman]. (2016, March 9). Morgan. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWbgIF1NO5E.

[DevelopingPictures]. (2012, March 25). Sponsor a Child: Little Footprints Big Steps. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjzncB3HsmA.

[James Pierre]. (2016, April 5). Morgan Wienberg goes one-on-one with James Pierre. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1VMeKKTxkM.

[Morgan Wienberg]. (2014, June 3). Congratulations, FH Grad 2014!. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNQ7PB95aYA.

[Ryan Sheetz]. (2015, February 20). Little Footprints Big Steps. Retrieved fromhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9fdPx1srGI.

Bailey, G. (2013, December 31). Catch Yukoner Morgan Wienberg tomorrow on CBC’s Gracious Gifts. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/airplay/features/2013/12/31/catch-yukoner-morgan-wienberg-tomorrow-on-cbcs-gracious-gifts/.

Baker, R. (2016, March 4). PHOTOS Governor General recognizes exceptional Canadians in Vancouver. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/governor-general-recognizes-exceptional-canadians-in-vancouver-1.3476960.

Broadley, L. (2014, August 1). Meet the Yukoner reuniting Haitian ‘orphans’ with their families. Retrieved from http://globalnews.ca/news/1482839/one-yukoners-work-reuniting-haitian-orphans-with-their-families/.

Bruemmer, R. (2011, April 8). Haiti: Little Paul gets it done. Retrieved from http://www.montrealgazette.com/business/haiti+little+paul+gets+done/5214066/story.html.

CBC News. (2015, November 29). Morgan Wienberg awarded Meritorious Service Cross for work in Haiti. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/morgan-wienberg-awarded-meritorious-service-cross-for-work-in-haiti-1.3340295.

ca. (n.d.). 23-year-old receives Meritorious Service Cross Medal. Retrieved from http://canadaam.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=804018&playlistId=1.2769055&binId=1.815911&playlistPageNum=1&binPageNum=1.

ca Staff. (2016, February 8). 23-year-old awarded Meritorious Service Cross for work in Haiti. Retrieved from http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/23-year-old-awarded-meritorious-service-cross-for-work-in-haiti-1.2769013.

Dolphin, M. (2015, December 4). Yukoner’s work in Haiti draws governor general’s attention. Retrieved from http://www.yukon-news.com/life/yukoners-work-in-haiti-draws-governor-generals-attention/.

Gillmore, M. (2012, July 18). Helping to reunite families in Haiti. Retrieved from http://yukon-news.com/life/helping-to-reunite-families-in-haiti.

Gillmore, W. (2013, August 16). Wienberg gives New York a glimpse of Haiti. Retrieved from http://www.yukon-news.com/news/wienberg-gives-new-york-a-glimpse-of-haiti/.

Gjerstad, S. (2014, April 8). Morgan (22) vier livet sitt til å gjenforene barn med foreldrene sine på Haiti. Retrieved from http://www.tv2.no/a/5852686/.

Joannou, A. (2016, March 7). Governor general gives nod to Yukon’s champion of Haitian children. Retrieved from http://www.yukon-news.com/news/governor-general-gives-nod-to-yukons-champion-of-haitian-children/.

Langham, M. (2012, October 10). Just Like Us: An Interview with Morgan Wienberg of Little Footprints, Big Steps. Retrieved from http://aconspiracyofhope.blogspot.ca/2012/10/just-like-us-interview-with-morgan.html.

Little Footprints, Big Steps. (2016). Little Footprints, Big Steps. Retrieved from https://www.littlefootprintsbigsteps.com.

Neel, T. (2013, May 16). Reaching the Hearts of Children in Need. Retrieved from http://whatsupyukon.com/Lifestyle/making-a-difference/reaching-the-hearts-of-children-in-need/#sthash.YCSvg1aM.oVLAQE3j.dpbs.

Peacock, A. (2016, February 27). Haiti has her heart. http://www.kelownadailycourier.ca/news/local_news/article_beb828d0-ddcf-11e5-851b-8b09487f61ce.html?mode=story.

(2014, July 8). Joven canadiense decide gastar sus ahorros en rescatar niños de Haití. Retrieved from http://www.elpais.com.uy/vida-actual/joven-canadiense-reune-huerfanos-haitianos.html.

Rodgers, E. (2015, January 12). Meet the 22-Year-Old Who Skipped Out on College—to Offer a Helping Hand in Haiti. Retrieved from http://www.takepart.com/article/2015/01/12/meet-morgan-wienberg-little-foot-big-step.

Schott, B.Y. (2012, September 13). Making a Difference One Child at a Time. Retrieved from http://whatsupyukon.com/Lifestyle/making-a-difference/making-a-difference-one-child-at-a-time/#sthash.CeS656Xm.2r1eJsAW.dpbs.

Shiel, A. (2011, November 17). McGill students host third annual TEDxMcGill even. Retrieved from http://www.mcgilldaily.com/2011/11/mcgill-students-host-third-annual-tedxmcgill-event/.

Thompson, J. (2011, December 23). Helping Haiti for the holidays. Retrieved from http://yukon-news.com/life/helping-haiti-for-the-holidays.

Thompson, J. (August 12). Hope and hard lessons in Haiti. Retrieved from http://yukon-news.com/life/hope-and-hard-lessons-in-haiti.

Thomson Reuters. (2014, July 27). 22-year-old Yukoner reunites Haitian ‘orphans’ with parents. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/22-year-old-yukoner-reunites-haitian-orphans-with-parents-1.2719559.

Waddell, S. (2015, November 27). For decorated Yukoner, home is now Haiti. Retrieved from http://www.whitehorsestar.com/News/for-decorated-yukoner-home-is-now-haiti.

Whitehorse Star. (2016, March 2). Yukoners to receive honours from Governor General. Retrieved from http://www.whitehorsestar.com/News/yukoners-to-receive-honours-from-governor-general.

Wienberg, M. (2013, November 22). Age Is Not an Obstacle in Changing the World. Retrieved from http://www.huffingtonpost.com/morgan-wienberg/age-is-not-an-obstacle_b_4324563.html.

Wienberg, M. (2014, January 23). Courage of a Mother. Retrieved from http://whatsupyukon.com/Lifestyle/making-a-difference/courage-of-a-mother/#sthash.hy1QzF0S.ZA1StSZz.dpbs.

Woodcock, R. (2013, September 26). Back to School in Haiti. Retrieved from http://whatsupyukon.com/Lifestyle/making-a-difference/back-to-school-in-haiti/#sthash.TMqQNkLX.dpbs.

Yukon News. (2013, February 6). Incredible acts of kindness in Haiti. Retrieved from http://yukon-news.com/letters-opinions/incredible-acts-of-kindness-in-haiti.

Appendix I: Photographs

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Appendix II: Footnotes

[1] Co-Founder, Coordinator, and Head of Haiti Operations, Little Footprints Big Steps International Development Organization.

[2] Individual Publication Date: September 8, 2011 at www.in-sightjournal.com; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2018 at www.in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/morgan-wienberg-part-two.

[3] Meritorious Service Cross (M.S.C.), Government of Canada; Queen’s Diamond Jubilee Medal; Governor General of Canada Academic Awards; Yukon Commissioner Award; Finalist, Young Women Impacting Social Justice, The Berger-Marks Foundation; Rotary International Paul Harris Fellowship Award for Humanitarian Impact, Rotary International; Keynote Speaker (2013), United Nations Youth Assembly.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Morgan Wienberg.

[5] CBC News. (2015, November 29). Morgan Wienberg awarded Meritorious Service Cross for work in Haiti. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/morgan-wienberg-awarded-meritorious-service-cross-for-work-in-haiti-1.3340295.

[6] Waddell, S. (2015, November 27). For decorated Yukoner, home is now Haiti. Retrieved from http://www.whitehorsestar.com/News/for-decorated-yukoner-home-is-now-haiti.

[7] Rodgers, E. (2015, January 12). Meet the 22-Year-Old Who Skipped Out on College—to Offer a Helping Hand in Haiti. Retrieved from http://www.takepart.com/article/2015/01/12/meet-morgan-wienberg-little-foot-big-step.

[8] Thomson Reuters. (2014, July 27). 22-year-old Yukoner reunites Haitian ‘orphans’ with parents. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/22-year-old-yukoner-reunites-haitian-orphans-with-parents-1.2719559.

[9] CTVNew.ca Staff. (2016, February 8). 23-year-old awarded Meritorious Service Cross for work in Haiti. Retrieved from http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/23-year-old-awarded-meritorious-service-cross-for-work-in-haiti-1.2769013.

[10] Joannou, A. (2016, March 7). Governor general gives nod to Yukon’s champion of Haitian children. Retrieved from http://www.yukon-news.com/news/governor-general-gives-nod-to-yukons-champion-of-haitian-children/.

[11] Baker, R. (2016, March 4). PHOTOS Governor General recognizes exceptional Canadians in Vancouver. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/governor-general-recognizes-exceptional-canadians-in-vancouver-1.3476960.

[12] Thomson, S. (2015, January 11). IN DEPTH Haiti quake’s effects still felt by Canadians on anniversary of disaster. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/haiti-quake-s-effects-still-felt-by-canadians-on-anniversary-of-disaster-1.2893435.

[13] Wienberg, M. (2013, November 22). Age Is Not an Obstacle in Changing the World. Retrieved from http://www.huffingtonpost.com/morgan-wienberg/age-is-not-an-obstacle_b_4324563.html.

[14] Shiel, A. (2011, November 17). McGill students host third annual TEDxMcGill even. Retrieved from http://www.mcgilldaily.com/2011/11/mcgill-students-host-third-annual-tedxmcgill-event/.

[15] Bruemmer, R. (2011, April 8). Haiti: Little Paul gets it done. Retrieved from http://www.montrealgazette.com/business/haiti+little+paul+gets+done/5214066/story.html.

[16] Gjerstad, S. (2014, April 8). Morgan (22) vier livet sitt til å gjenforene barn med foreldrene sine på Haiti. Retrieved from http://www.tv2.no/a/5852686/.

[17] Reuters. (2014, July 8). Joven canadiense decide gastar sus ahorros en rescatar niños de Haití. Retrieved from http://www.elpais.com.uy/vida-actual/joven-canadiense-reune-huerfanos-haitianos.html.

[18] Gillmore, M. (2012, July 18). Helping to reunite families in Haiti. Retrieved from http://yukon-news.com/life/helping-to-reunite-families-in-haiti.

[19] Thompson, J. (2011, August 12). Hope and hard lessons in Haiti. Retrieved from http://yukon-news.com/life/hope-and-hard-lessons-in-haiti.

[20] Thompson, J. (2011, December 23). Helping Haiti for the holidays. Retrieved from http://yukon-news.com/life/helping-haiti-for-the-holidays.

[21] Langham, M. (2012, October 10). Just Like Us: An Interview with Morgan Wienberg of Little Footprints, Big Steps. Retrieved from http://aconspiracyofhope.blogspot.ca/2012/10/just-like-us-interview-with-morgan.html.

[22] Schott, B.Y. (2012, September 13). Making a Difference One Child at a Time. Retrieved from http://whatsupyukon.com/Lifestyle/making-a-difference/making-a-difference-one-child-at-a-time/#sthash.CeS656Xm.2r1eJsAW.dpbs.

[23] Yukon News. (2013, February 6). Incredible acts of kindness in Haiti. Retrieved from http://yukon-news.com/letters-opinions/incredible-acts-of-kindness-in-haiti.

[24] Neel, T. (2013, May 16). Reaching the Hearts of Children in Need. Retrieved from http://whatsupyukon.com/Lifestyle/making-a-difference/reaching-the-hearts-of-children-in-need/#sthash.YCSvg1aM.oVLAQE3j.dpbs.

[25] Gillmore, W. (2013, August 16). Wienberg gives New York a glimpse of Haiti. Retrieved from http://www.yukon-news.com/news/wienberg-gives-new-york-a-glimpse-of-haiti/.

[26] Woodcock, R. (2013, September 26). Back to School in Haiti. Retrieved from http://whatsupyukon.com/Lifestyle/making-a-difference/back-to-school-in-haiti/#sthash.TMqQNkLX.dpbs.

[27] Bailey, G. (2013, December 31). Catch Yukoner Morgan Wienberg tomorrow on CBC’s Gracious Gifts. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/airplay/features/2013/12/31/catch-yukoner-morgan-wienberg-tomorrow-on-cbcs-gracious-gifts/.

[28] Wienberg, M. (2014, January 23). Courage of a Mother. Retrieved from http://whatsupyukon.com/Lifestyle/making-a-difference/courage-of-a-mother/#sthash.hy1QzF0S.ZA1StSZz.dpbs.

[29] Dolphin, M. (2015, December 4). Yukoner’s work in Haiti draws governor general’s attention. Retrieved from http://www.yukon-news.com/life/yukoners-work-in-haiti-draws-governor-generals-attention/.

[30] Peacock, A. (2016, February 27). Haiti has her heart. http://www.kelownadailycourier.ca/news/local_news/article_beb828d0-ddcf-11e5-851b-8b09487f61ce.html?mode=story.

[31] Whitehorse Star. (2016, March 2). Yukoners to receive honours from Governor General. Retrieved from http://www.whitehorsestar.com/News/yukoners-to-receive-honours-from-governor-general.

[32] [Ryan Sheetz]. (2015, February 20). Little Footprints Big Steps. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9fdPx1srGI.

[33] [James Pierre]. (2016, April 5). Morgan Wienberg goes one-on-one with James Pierre. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1VMeKKTxkM.

[34] [DevelopingPictures]. (2012, March 25). Sponsor a Child: Little Footprints Big Steps. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjzncB3HsmA.

[35] [Morgan Wienberg]. (2014, June 3). Congratulations, FH Grad 2014!. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNQ7PB95aYA.

[36] [David Truman]. (2016, March 9). Morgan. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWbgIF1NO5E.

[37] [TEDxTalks]. (2011, December 12). TEDxMcGill – Morgan Wienberg – Will You Choose to Destroy the Web?. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NRq7lLjw_k.

[38] [Ryan Sheetz]. (2015, February 20). Little Footprints Big Steps. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9fdPx1srGI.

[1] Co-Founder, Coordinator, and Head of Haiti Operations, Little Footprints Big Steps International Development Organization.

[2] Individual Publication Date: September 1, 2017, at www.in-sightjournal.com/morgan-wienberg-part-one; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2018, at www.in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Meritorious Service Cross (M.S.C.), Government of Canada; Queen’s Diamond Jubilee Medal; Governor General of Canada Academic Awards; Yukon Commissioner Award; Finalist, Young Women Impacting Social Justice, The Berger-Marks Foundation; Rotary International Paul Harris Fellowship Award for Humanitarian Impact, Rotary International; Keynote Speaker (2013), United Nations Youth Assembly; Finalist (2012), Edna Award, International Women’s Rights.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Morgan Wienberg.

[5] Co-Founder/Head of Haiti Operations: MORGAN WIENBERG, M.S.C. (2016) states:

Raised in Canada’s far northern city of Whitehorse, Yukon, throughout her youth, Morgan volunteered with non-profit organizations and developed an all-consuming interest in human rights. In 2010, six months after a 7.0-magnitude earthquake struck Haiti, this high school valedictorian traded her snow boots for sandals and set off for the devastated country. What was meant to be a short trip changed her life – and countless others – forever.

Morgan volunteered in an orphanage and found the conditions to be appalling. She witnessed children that were neglected, beaten, and starved. In some cases, children were used as slaves or sold, as if they were property. Although it was sorely needed, the children were denied medical attention. Morgan discovered that children had been sent to the orphanage by their parents in the mistaken belief that their children would be offered food, education, and loving care. Morgan began to work towards reuniting children with their families.

In 2011, Morgan co-founded Little Footprints, Big Steps (LFBS). Morgan continues to live in Haiti, leading the organization with integrity, creativity and perseverance. Forging partnerships and collaborations with other non-profits and with Haitian government; spearheading initiatives and piloting programs; hiring and guiding Haitian staff; managing the program administration; tirelessly pouring love and encouragement into all of the children and families that come her way.

Little Footprints, Big Steps. (2016). Co-Founder/Head of Haiti Operations: MORGAN WIENBERG, M.S.C.. Retrieved from http://www.littlefootprintsbigsteps.com/about-us/meet-mogan/.

[6] CTVNews.ca. (n.d.). 23-year-old receives Meritorious Service Cross Medal. Retrieved from http://canadaam.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=804018&playlistId=1.2769055&binId=1.815911&playlistPageNum=1&binPageNum=1.

[7] Ibid.

Appendix III: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part Two) [Online].September 2017; 15(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/morgan-wienberg-part-two.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, September 8). An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part Two). Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/morgan-wienberg-part-two.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A, September. 2017. <www.in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/morgan-wienberg-part-two>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/morgan-wienberg-part-two.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A (September 2017). www.in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/morgan-wienberg-part-two.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 15.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/morgan-wienberg-part-two>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 15.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/morgan-wienberg-part-two.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 15.A (2017):September. 2017. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/morgan-wienberg-part-two>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part Two)[Internet]. (2017, September; 15(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/morgan-wienberg-part-two.

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Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

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© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2017-09-01

An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part One)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 15.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Eleven)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: September 1, 2017

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,147

ISSN 2369-6885

1

Abstract

An interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. She discusses: geographic, cultural, and linguistic background, source of giftedness; early indications of general ability and motivation; support from Karen Wienberg; advice for gifted kids in pursuit of their dreams; recommendations on parenting; influence of an Anglophone home; support from the school for giftedness; executive function research and implications for school performance on average; community support for giftedness; the appeal of Haiti in 2010 after the earthquake; and emotional connections with the children.

Keywords: Humanitarianism, Little Footprints Big Steps International Development Organization, Morgan Wienberg.

An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C.: Co-Founder, Coordinator, and Head of Haiti Operations, Little Footprints Big Steps International Development Organization (Part One)[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been edited for clarity and readability.*​

*Images in Appendix I: Photographs.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: In terms of geography, culture, and language, where does your personal and familial background reside?[5]

Morgan Wienberg: I was born in Terrace, British Columbia. Since I was 9, I developed in Whitehorse, Yukon. My primary language Is English. During school for me, French is a second language. At home, I was speaking the English language. (Laughs) My family lineage is German. My grandparents are from Yugoslavia and Germany. They emigrated to Canada after the war and met in Vancouver.

2. Jacobsen: You were a gifted child and adolescent. Now, you are a gifted adult. Your accomplishments and personality show this, and I interviews, correspondence, and interaction here. For instances, the personal high independent moral standard of conduct and being valedictorian for high school. What seems like the source of this to you?

Wienberg: I was always very, very highly motivated, very ambitious, and a perfectionist. It was to an unhealthy point. I was hard on myself. I had the desire to surpass expectations. If there was something for me, then I wanted to do it. That came from me. There was not an outside pressure.

My mother and teachers wanted relaxation from me, to be a kid. In fifth grade, my mom put a timer on me. So, I could not do more than an hour of homework. It upset me. I was bothered by it. It was an inner desire to overachieve. I am an overachiever.

3. Jacobsen: Were there early indications of this general ability and motivation?

Wienberg: On an academic level, since primary school, I remember in 4th and 5th grade. If I was writing and did not like the look of the handwriting, I would rewrite it. In high school, it was extreme. I wanted to get 100%. Once, in biology, I earned more than 100% for doing bonus work. Also, I was particular about food. I was a purist.

As a child, which is bizarre, I was particular about consumption, the environment around me, and treatment of people. I wanted to be a perfect daughter from mom. In school, I wanted to be the model student. I was obedient. I had personal growth through work in Haiti. I have placed personal history in perspective. I am ambitious. However, I am healthier with the perfectionism.

I had a sensitivity to animals and the environment. In 4th grade, I formed a group with best friends. We were advocates for the environment. We advocated against pollution and for animal rights.  I was in 4th grade! (Laughs) I would write a logo at the top of each assignment. It was about being nice to animals.

I did a lot of volunteering in high school for the community. I was the youngest in multiple volunteering activities. I was a Board Member of the Anti-Poverty Coalition. I was a Board Member of the Human Society of Yukon. I was the youngest board member for each of them. There was a campaign to raise awareness about homelessness. Participants would spend one week homeless.

They were not allowed home for the week, or to have a backpack with them. It was in October. That is a dangerous time in the Yukon. (Laughs) I participated in it. I was sleeping on the street in Yukon. I was in 10th or 11th grade. I went to school. I attempted to find a place to sleep. I developed empathy for the homeless.

Same thing with the street kids in Haiti. I spent the night with them. At that point, I spent the time with the homeless in the Yukon and the street kids in Haiti. People in the Whitehorse community were candidates for local government positions. Age was never an obstacle for me. I had mature interests than individuals around the same age as me.

I thought about animals. I thought about the environment. I thought about people around me. I was extremely focused on academics.

4. Jacobsen: Your giftedness, focus on academics, and sensitivity and compassion for “beings” around you were nurtured by Karen Wienberg. Your mother nurtured these gifts and talents. Although, based on the story about the timer to reduce hours spent on homework, your mother might ‘nurture’ via disincentivizing extremes. We have narratives about gifted individuals going to extremes. For other examples, what support came from her?

Wienberg: Absolutely, she nurtured me. my mom is a very strong and independent woman. She is intelligent and hardworking. She is open-minded. She is a role model for me. Later, this arose in me. It helped me. I overcame obstacles starting in Haiti. She always believed in me. It was not about her. That was one of the biggest supports from her.

If I changed my mind, she would not be persistent on the first thing. She encouraged trying new things. Even with my younger brother, she wanted him to know about other religions. She wanted him to volunteer in different things. Whether volunteering or other things, she encouraged me. She joined the Humane Society of Yukon and involved with the volunteering, too.

I would cook food for the homeless shelter. I was excited. She said, “We need food in our house as well!” (Laughs)

(Laughs)

Take, for example, age 5 or 6, she asked about what I wanted to be when I grew up. I would list a bunch of occupations. She would think, “Okay…” (Laughs) She supported any endeavor for me. She would back me up. That helped me. I didn’t see obstacles, at least easily. (Laughs)

5. Jacobsen: I want to parse two perspectives: gifted kid and parent. Any advice for gifted kids in pursuit of their dreams?

Wienberg: Do not allow other people’s perceptions to limit you. Do not allow your thoughts about what others think about you limit you. Age, gender, and happenstance of geography should not be a factor in personal success. I strongly believe this: mentality and ambition have the greatest influence on your ability to accomplish personal dreams.

However, if you question your ability to do it, or let outside influence the doubt of your ability, then that will be an obstacle for you.

6. Jacobsen: Any recommendations on parenting?

Wienberg: I am in a position of parenting. I work with many different types of parents. I am working with kids now. Some of them have developed without parental influence. I see their different development. I work with kids with irresponsible parents. They influence the children in a negative way. Things are taken for granted by me. These children lack proper parenting.

I see them develop in a different way with different support. It gives insight into my childhood and how my mother influenced me. When I say “mother,” I mean mother alone, single mother I never met my biological father in person. I have been in touch through e-mail. I knew about him. I never thought of being raised by a single mother because I never felt in need of anything. An independent woman raised me.

I never saw being an independent woman as any type of weakness. My mom was a strong role model for it. One important thing with parenting. You need to accept the mentality of supporting the child. You’re there for them, not you. You should want them to develop into an individual. You are there to offer guidance. However, the ambitions and the dreams of the child need to come from within the child.

You need to remove yourself. Whatever that child develops a liking to or an interest in, or sees as something to strive to achieve, your role is to support them in being a strong enough individual to have those dreams and attempt to approach them. Oftentimes, parents focus more on influencing their own aspirations for the child as opposed to building the child’s personal strengths. The child can take on their own ambition.

7. Jacobsen: You developed in a majority Anglophone home. How did this influence perspective? For those without the cultural heritage of Canadian provinces and territories, in Canada, we have the Anglophone and Francophone split.

Wienberg: Although, my family was Anglophone. My community was a heavy Francophone influence around me. Some friends were French speaking. I enjoyed learning French in school. I enjoyed using French on a personal level. I do not know if this affected me, at least not too much. In Haiti, it helped me, but I did not know Creole.

8. Jacobsen: Back to the main line of thought from the personal and parental perspective, what about the school for support?

Wienberg: I always felt the school was supportive. My teachers allowed me to advance as well. There could be an improvement with schools networking more. If students are gifted or ambitious, then they could make suggestions to connect those students with real-life situations, where the students could influence accomplishing something with the gifts as opposed to funneling things into academics.

9. Jacobsen: Tier 1 Canada Research Chair at The University of British Columbia Professor Adele Diamond researches executive function (EF). She finds the counter-intuitive educational focus is the correct thing. Her research shows the need to focus on things around education to improve educational performance and completion rates on average: play, dance, extra curricular, social life, and so on. EF is twice as predictive as IQ in educational outcomes based on the research.

Wienberg: When I was in school, I was less involved in extra curricular activities because I was pouring time into academics. Experiential knowledge helps a lot. Also, certain skills acquired through socialization and taking on responsibilities/positions like confidence, public speaking, networking, and so on. Those can allow for greater impact with the gifts that you have in life. It allows them to go further.

10. Jacobsen: What about the community?

Wienberg: I grew up in a unique community. It was a small town in Yukon. It is full of creative people. It was good for me. I had a lot of opportunities for involvement. There are many groups of people doing many things. The majority of people are open-minded.  I showed up at 16 or 17 to be on the Board of Directors for the Yukon Anti-Poverty Coalition

All of the older people in the group were excited about and supportive of it. I did not receive criticism. I was not told that I was too young, that it was silly, and so on. Everyone was excited about involvement from me. From the first job, it was the same thing. I was young. However, I was respected and encouraged. It was in this socially responsible bakery.

I was embraced as part of the family there. I worked there for 5 years. The same for the community. They supported me. Support from the community permitted the foundation of an organization. They knew me. They trusted me. I started the organization with tips from the community while working at the bakery.

11. Jacobsen: When the 2010 earthquake hit Haiti, you noted the prominence in the media of the event as a salient thing for you.[6] You said, “I wanted to help. I wanted to help in a bigger way than just sending money. I wanted to connect with the people.”[7] From 2010, after graduation from high school, you traveled to Haiti for a trip. You interned with Mission of Hope Haiti. What seemed like the appeal of Haiti at the time?

Wienberg: At the time of the earthquake in January of 2010, I was about to graduate from high school. I planned to attend university in the Fall. I had this freedom during the Summer to travel. I always wanted to travel to Africa and work with kids. When the earthquake hit, my attention turned to Haiti. It was closer. It seemed in desperate need at the time. The timing coincided with the freedom to travel.

12. Jacobsen: The children seemed like the core connection for you. What emotional connections came out of this first trip for you?

Wienberg: I always, always, always, loved children. Since I was 12 years old, I would babysit a lot. I always loved looking after animals or children. Actually, from grade 5, my name was “mom” because I loved being maternalistic and looking after other people, even as a child. When I went to Haiti the first time in 2010, I had three roles as an intern.

I was working with patients in a prosthetic lab. When they received new prosthetic legs, they would stay for about a week in the compound. I stayed there too. I would look after them. I made sure food and hygiene items were there. I helped them with practicing their walking. Also, I was involved in teaching an English class to a group of young adults in the community.

I did not speak Creole at the time. I used French to teach the class. I was afraid at the thought of teaching a class. I did not feel qualified to do it. I graduated from high school two weeks prior to the experience. I thought, “They do not know English. I have English to offer them. They are eager to learn from me.” It helped build the confidence in the beginning.

The third role was starting interacting with this Haitian-run orphanage. I found out about the orphanage through an organization. I worked with the organization. When I visited the orphanage for the first time during the first visit, it was the worst conditions for human beings. I had never seen anything like it. I’d visited ten villages. All inhabitants were amputees. I visited other orphanages, where things were horrific. It needed more sustainable support.

Candy and holding the kids are not enough. People would cry about the horrific conditions and then leave. They did not do anything about it. I could not observe the children’s livelihood and then leave them. This specific group of children living in the orphanage became the motivation to return to Haiti. They changed my whole life. The thought, I could not forget about them and continue with life without changing the situation for them.

That’s changed my future forever.

References

[David Truman]. (2016, March 9). Morgan. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWbgIF1NO5E.

[DevelopingPictures]. (2012, March 25). Sponsor a Child: Little Footprints Big Steps. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjzncB3HsmA.

[James Pierre]. (2016, April 5). Morgan Wienberg goes one-on-one with James Pierre. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1VMeKKTxkM.

[Morgan Wienberg]. (2014, June 3). Congratulations, FH Grad 2014!. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNQ7PB95aYA.

[Ryan Sheetz]. (2015, February 20). Little Footprints Big Steps. Retrieved fromhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9fdPx1srGI.

Bailey, G. (2013, December 31). Catch Yukoner Morgan Wienberg tomorrow on CBC’s Gracious Gifts. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/airplay/features/2013/12/31/catch-yukoner-morgan-wienberg-tomorrow-on-cbcs-gracious-gifts/.

Baker, R. (2016, March 4). PHOTOS Governor General recognizes exceptional Canadians in Vancouver. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/governor-general-recognizes-exceptional-canadians-in-vancouver-1.3476960.

Broadley, L. (2014, August 1). Meet the Yukoner reuniting Haitian ‘orphans’ with their families. Retrieved from http://globalnews.ca/news/1482839/one-yukoners-work-reuniting-haitian-orphans-with-their-families/.

Bruemmer, R. (2011, April 8). Haiti: Little Paul gets it done. Retrieved from http://www.montrealgazette.com/business/haiti+little+paul+gets+done/5214066/story.html.

CBC News. (2015, November 29). Morgan Wienberg awarded Meritorious Service Cross for work in Haiti. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/morgan-wienberg-awarded-meritorious-service-cross-for-work-in-haiti-1.3340295.

ca. (n.d.). 23-year-old receives Meritorious Service Cross Medal. Retrieved from http://canadaam.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=804018&playlistId=1.2769055&binId=1.815911&playlistPageNum=1&binPageNum=1.

ca Staff. (2016, February 8). 23-year-old awarded Meritorious Service Cross for work in Haiti. Retrieved from http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/23-year-old-awarded-meritorious-service-cross-for-work-in-haiti-1.2769013.

Dolphin, M. (2015, December 4). Yukoner’s work in Haiti draws governor general’s attention. Retrieved from http://www.yukon-news.com/life/yukoners-work-in-haiti-draws-governor-generals-attention/.

Gillmore, M. (2012, July 18). Helping to reunite families in Haiti. Retrieved from http://yukon-news.com/life/helping-to-reunite-families-in-haiti.

Gillmore, W. (2013, August 16). Wienberg gives New York a glimpse of Haiti. Retrieved from http://www.yukon-news.com/news/wienberg-gives-new-york-a-glimpse-of-haiti/.

Gjerstad, S. (2014, April 8). Morgan (22) vier livet sitt til å gjenforene barn med foreldrene sine på Haiti. Retrieved from http://www.tv2.no/a/5852686/.

Joannou, A. (2016, March 7). Governor general gives nod to Yukon’s champion of Haitian children. Retrieved from http://www.yukon-news.com/news/governor-general-gives-nod-to-yukons-champion-of-haitian-children/.

Langham, M. (2012, October 10). Just Like Us: An Interview with Morgan Wienberg of Little Footprints, Big Steps. Retrieved from http://aconspiracyofhope.blogspot.ca/2012/10/just-like-us-interview-with-morgan.html.

Little Footprints, Big Steps. (2016). Little Footprints, Big Steps. Retrieved from https://www.littlefootprintsbigsteps.com.

Neel, T. (2013, May 16). Reaching the Hearts of Children in Need. Retrieved from http://whatsupyukon.com/Lifestyle/making-a-difference/reaching-the-hearts-of-children-in-need/#sthash.YCSvg1aM.oVLAQE3j.dpbs.

Peacock, A. (2016, February 27). Haiti has her heart. http://www.kelownadailycourier.ca/news/local_news/article_beb828d0-ddcf-11e5-851b-8b09487f61ce.html?mode=story.

(2014, July 8). Joven canadiense decide gastar sus ahorros en rescatar niños de Haití. Retrieved from http://www.elpais.com.uy/vida-actual/joven-canadiense-reune-huerfanos-haitianos.html.

Rodgers, E. (2015, January 12). Meet the 22-Year-Old Who Skipped Out on College—to Offer a Helping Hand in Haiti. Retrieved from http://www.takepart.com/article/2015/01/12/meet-morgan-wienberg-little-foot-big-step.

Schott, B.Y. (2012, September 13). Making a Difference One Child at a Time. Retrieved from http://whatsupyukon.com/Lifestyle/making-a-difference/making-a-difference-one-child-at-a-time/#sthash.CeS656Xm.2r1eJsAW.dpbs.

Shiel, A. (2011, November 17). McGill students host third annual TEDxMcGill even. Retrieved from http://www.mcgilldaily.com/2011/11/mcgill-students-host-third-annual-tedxmcgill-event/.

Thompson, J. (2011, December 23). Helping Haiti for the holidays. Retrieved from http://yukon-news.com/life/helping-haiti-for-the-holidays.

Thompson, J. (August 12). Hope and hard lessons in Haiti. Retrieved from http://yukon-news.com/life/hope-and-hard-lessons-in-haiti.

Thomson Reuters. (2014, July 27). 22-year-old Yukoner reunites Haitian ‘orphans’ with parents. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/22-year-old-yukoner-reunites-haitian-orphans-with-parents-1.2719559.

Waddell, S. (2015, November 27). For decorated Yukoner, home is now Haiti. Retrieved from http://www.whitehorsestar.com/News/for-decorated-yukoner-home-is-now-haiti.

Whitehorse Star. (2016, March 2). Yukoners to receive honours from Governor General. Retrieved from http://www.whitehorsestar.com/News/yukoners-to-receive-honours-from-governor-general.

Wienberg, M. (2013, November 22). Age Is Not an Obstacle in Changing the World. Retrieved from http://www.huffingtonpost.com/morgan-wienberg/age-is-not-an-obstacle_b_4324563.html.

Wienberg, M. (2014, January 23). Courage of a Mother. Retrieved from http://whatsupyukon.com/Lifestyle/making-a-difference/courage-of-a-mother/#sthash.hy1QzF0S.ZA1StSZz.dpbs.

Woodcock, R. (2013, September 26). Back to School in Haiti. Retrieved from http://whatsupyukon.com/Lifestyle/making-a-difference/back-to-school-in-haiti/#sthash.TMqQNkLX.dpbs.

Yukon News. (2013, February 6). Incredible acts of kindness in Haiti. Retrieved from http://yukon-news.com/letters-opinions/incredible-acts-of-kindness-in-haiti.

Appendix I: Photographs

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Appendix II: Footnotes

[1] Co-Founder, Coordinator, and Head of Haiti Operations, Little Footprints Big Steps International Development Organization.

[2] Individual Publication Date: September 1, 2017, at www.in-sightjournal.com/morgan-wienberg-part-one; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2018, at www.in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Meritorious Service Cross (M.S.C.), Government of Canada; Queen’s Diamond Jubilee Medal; Governor General of Canada Academic Awards; Yukon Commissioner Award; Finalist, Young Women Impacting Social Justice, The Berger-Marks Foundation; Rotary International Paul Harris Fellowship Award for Humanitarian Impact, Rotary International; Keynote Speaker (2013), United Nations Youth Assembly; Finalist (2012), Edna Award, International Women’s Rights.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Morgan Wienberg.

[5] Co-Founder/Head of Haiti Operations: MORGAN WIENBERG, M.S.C. (2016) states:

Raised in Canada’s far northern city of Whitehorse, Yukon, throughout her youth, Morgan volunteered with non-profit organizations and developed an all-consuming interest in human rights. In 2010, six months after a 7.0-magnitude earthquake struck Haiti, this high school valedictorian traded her snow boots for sandals and set off for the devastated country. What was meant to be a short trip changed her life – and countless others – forever.

Morgan volunteered in an orphanage and found the conditions to be appalling. She witnessed children that were neglected, beaten, and starved. In some cases, children were used as slaves or sold, as if they were property. Although it was sorely needed, the children were denied medical attention. Morgan discovered that children had been sent to the orphanage by their parents in the mistaken belief that their children would be offered food, education, and loving care. Morgan began to work towards reuniting children with their families.

In 2011, Morgan co-founded Little Footprints, Big Steps (LFBS). Morgan continues to live in Haiti, leading the organization with integrity, creativity and perseverance. Forging partnerships and collaborations with other non-profits and with Haitian government; spearheading initiatives and piloting programs; hiring and guiding Haitian staff; managing the program administration; tirelessly pouring love and encouragement into all of the children and families that come her way.

Little Footprints, Big Steps. (2016). Co-Founder/Head of Haiti Operations: MORGAN WIENBERG, M.S.C.. Retrieved from http://www.littlefootprintsbigsteps.com/about-us/meet-mogan/.

[6] CTVNews.ca. (n.d.). 23-year-old receives Meritorious Service Cross Medal. Retrieved from http://canadaam.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=804018&playlistId=1.2769055&binId=1.815911&playlistPageNum=1&binPageNum=1.

[7] Ibid.

Appendix III: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part One) [Online].September 2017; 15(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/morgan-wienberg-part-one.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, September 1). An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part One). Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/morgan-wienberg-part-one.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A, September. 2017. <www.in-sightjournal.com/morgan-wienberg-part-one>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/morgan-wienberg-part-one.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 15.A (September 2017). www.in-sightjournal.com/morgan-wienberg-part-one.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 15.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/morgan-wienberg-part-one>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 15.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/morgan-wienberg-part-one.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 15.A (2017):September. 2017. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/morgan-wienberg-part-one>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Morgan Wienberg, M.S.C. (Part One) [Internet]. (2017, September; 15(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/morgan-wienberg-part-one.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2017-08-22

An Interview with Professor Jonathan Schooler (Part Three)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 14.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Nine)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: August 22, 2017

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,690

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

An interview with Professor Jonathan Schooler. He discusses: the META lab; the big picture focus of the lab; conclusions from the research; counterintuitive emergent research; the research in free will; Elizabeth Loftus and collaboration; attitude towards research; the makings of a great psychologist; the possibility of the laws of psychology; verbal overshadowing and replication; and Weber’s law and unifying principles in psychology.

Keywords: decline effect, Jonathan Schooler, meta-awareness, meta-consciousness, psychology.

An Interview with Professor Jonathan Schooler: Professor, Psychological and Brain Sciences, University of California, Santa Barbara; Director, The Center for Mindfulness and Human Potential (Part Three)[1],[2]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been edited for clarity and readability.*​

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Next question set is to do with the META lab. So, you remain a principle investigator of the memory, emotion, thought, awareness lab, META? Its acronym explains its basic template and subject matter. How did the META lab begin and develop into the present?

Professor Jonathan Schooler: The META lab began when I was a, what was my title? I was a tier one Canada research chair in social cognitive science at the University of British Columbia, Vancouver.

It rose there. Jonathan Smallwood was involved at that time and I believed that he may be credited with it that. No, I came up with META. He came up with memory emotion, thought, awareness, that’s what it was. It reflects the branch of the topics that we tackle but also the perspective that we aim for in that it captures our big picture vantage.

2. Jacobsen: You focus a lot of your research on the “big picture.” So does this lab still pertain to that big picture focus?

Schooler: Yes, absolutely. Meta-awareness and meta-consciousness are two constructs that are essential to my perspective of things.

3. Jacobsen: What conclusions came from that research? Even the decline effect as well?

Schooler: My interest in the decline effect comes from the big picture perspective quite directly. It requires you to look at science from a larger perspective. Metascience is a core interest now in the lab and understanding how science itself operates and it is notable.

The decline effect, the nature piece and the discussion in the New Yorker came out and it is coincidental but striking that following that all of the evidence for this challenge of reproducibility has accumulated.

That comes from a big picture perspective. Recognizing that comes from a big picture perspective. Also, I originally became introduced to the idea of the decline effect in the context of parapsychological research and that’s where the term was first articulated by Ryan.

It may not come as a surprise to many that parapsychological findings have shown particularly substantial decline effects although you do see decline effects in other areas as well. However, my willingness to entertain parapsychology is also how I became introduced to the concept.

4. Jacobsen: What counterintuitive research emerged from this lab outside of the research you mentioned, the decline effect?

Schooler: The most counterintuitive results that have come from my lab is verbal overshot. That is the finding that when people verbally describe a nonverbal experience after the fact, describing a previously seen face, can interfere with the later ability, such as recognizing the face and that is counterintuitive.

You would think that talking about something would be helpful but in fact that in turns out to be disruptive. that finding was recently replicated in a major international replication effort. Another counterintuitive result was this basic idea that verbalization is disruptive generalizes to many different domains.

Such as analyzing why the way you feel you do interferes with your ability to make judgments. If people analyze why they feel the way they do, they make decisions that they are less satisfied within some circumstances and others are.

Analyzing why you feel the way you do about a nonverbal experience such as the taste of the jam, the appearance of a poster, can disrupt your ability to make a decision about that object. Another thing is telling people there is no such thing as free can influence their behaviour in marked ways.

We find that people are more likely to cheat when they’ve had the concept of free will undermined. We also find that they are less punitive when awarding damages to others.

5. Jacobsen: What is the explanation for that research with respect to free will in terms of people being less punitive in addition to being more likely to cheat?

Schooler: We are still trying to understand the full mechanism but it seems that it is changing the way people view themselves and others. With respect to themselves, they seem to hold themselves to a less high standard and with respect to others, they seem to the same for others, so they are less punitive towards them.

It seems to be a lowering of standards. Interestingly we find this effect seems to be going on below the surface. We get a larger effect if we tell them about the message in one study and then measure it in a totally separate study so it is a little bit more under the radar.

Also, we find if they make quick judgments, we see exaggerated effects. So, it seems to be that it somehow lowers people’s expectations of themselves and others and does so at a tactic level.

6. Jacobsen: So in the midst of your productive career you have collaborated with, as far as I can tell from citation listing, the single greatest living or dead woman psychologist, professor Elizabeth Loftus. What research methodologies emerged from this collaboration for you?

Schooler: I am humbled by that question because I would only hope that I could emulate the elegance of her approach. I would say that it was identifying meaningful questions. The questions that somebody on the bus would be interested in.

She had a knack for thinking about what is related to the kinds of things people care about and asking questions about that and figuring out ways to reduce that question to a paradigm that was empirically tractable and ideally simple.

So the verbal overshadowing, she has a misinformation effect where she told people after the fact that she asked a question that included misleading questions and we are too conditioned when necessary for the basic result and I came up with the verbal overshadowing effect where I asked them to describe the appearance of a previously seen face led to interference.

Then she, throughout her career, has been dedicated to significant questions and the questions that matter in the real world and I certainly do not presuppose that I have come anywhere near her pedigree or near her success in achieving that goal.

It certainly influenced me and my choice of issues such as mind wandering, which is something that everybody does but there is little research on. Or verbal overshadowing that potentially could have significant ramifications for people’s memory and even possibly for the legal system.

I was interested in recovered memories. There is so much different perspective on it but I share her appreciation for the significance of that topic. I would to think a willingness to be courageous in tackling questions that people may feel are not appropriate to ask or that are not suitable for science.

7. Jacobsen: What attitude towards research came out of this as well?

Schooler: I would say two things. Beth showed me how exciting research could be. finding passion in topics that matter. Secondly, trying to make that passion available to the general public to make use of and value from and to choose topics that have significant social importance.

8. Jacobsen: What seems her greatest strength in style of research?

Schooler: I would say it is her ability to identify important, tractable questions that are important to society that others have missed.

9. Jacobsen: You answered another question from a previous response, looking back at this. I’ll go to the next one. What makes a great psychologist such as Freud, Piaget, Kohlberg, Kahneman, Loftus, and others?

Schooler: [Laughing] So, I would have to say that the capacity to promote provocative ideas that are some way or another somewhat extreme. However, to promote those ideas with complete conviction in a way that others may not even possess is critical.

If you look at all those people who you mentioned, a real case could be made that they all overstated their case. They all made claims that go beyond what many of us would feel entirely comfortable with. However, that’s their style.

They see things in that caricature, or caricature is not quite right, but somewhat extreme perspective. Interestingly, by taking the intricate idea and pushing it to it is extreme, that gives the idea greater and makes it more likely to stick and be remembered.

10. Jacobsen: Now to some exploratory subject matter. There is a series of questions I’ll ask but there are some things that came to mind in the midst of some other previous questions.

You made a particular note about the title science and many will critique social science in general, psychology and brain science in particular, as non-science in the sense that yes they do follow the procedures of science but they do not find fundamental laws.

In geology, you get plate tectonics and continental drift. In biology, you get the evolutionary theory. In physics, you get the universal law of gravitation and space and time are unified for instance. What does psychology offer in terms of laws if any, that might provide a response to this form of critique of the discipline as a whole?

Schooler: If you go back even a hundred years to psychophysics you find there is Weber’s law and there is Fechner’s law, there is a whole bunch of laws having to do with the relationship between people’s subjective experience and their judgment of physical measurements that are lawful.

There are rather lawful principles with respect to forgetting curves and there is quite a bit of qualities that has that lawful. However, that what happens is that as you move up the scale of observation, as we move from lower level to a higher level, even if you look at the difference between chemistry and biology, what you see is a gradual reduction in the lawful predictiveness of things being explicable from relatively simple variables.

You get essentially multiple converging factors and when you have multiple converging factors, it is going to be fuzzier. So, by it is nature, you see a greater fuzziness in empirical observations in psychology relative to more lower level types of processes.

Even there, it works its way up with sociology in some ways, although Durkheim, you definitely see some lawful relationships in sociology as but becomes difficult to predict with respect to any individual human being and there is likely that factors such as chaos theory and the way in which random variables interact make it challenging to make specific predictions for any given individual.

But basic phenomena, we can definitely characterize psychology as science with replicable phenomenon that when you reproduce the basic conditions, produce robust effects. So, verbal overshadowing has now been replicated by 20 labs, a single replication thing. It is unquestionably there. So, we do have observations that are meaningful but it is harder to find the simple laws to explain them.

11. Jacobsen: Two things come to mind from that. That verbal overshadowing remains one case and we do have a “crisis” in regards to replication as you noted earlier in the interview. Anything in response to that?

Schooler: We do but I do not think that’s limited to psychology at all. That includes medicine and genetics, ecology, biology and many areas seem to have issues with replication. I believe that psychology is leading the way in meta-science in demonstrating ways to understand the issues that some hard physical sciences do not, but many sciences are facing.

And in so doing we can better assess the situation. I used the word crisis myself and regret that in retrospect. I do not think we are in a crisis. we are in a growth phase of understanding our field in a way that we never had before. However, much of what we are finding is robust and it may be that the effects are not as big as expected.

We seem to be finding evidence for this. Some of them may not be done at all. The actual degree of that remains to be determined. My own intuition is that many effects that now claim to be not replicated were there, they were smaller then they were originally appreciated to be and so the dimensions are more specified.

And once we begin to be more precise and understanding the conditions and are more generous in the number of participants that we use, a lot this will resolve itself.

12. Jacobsen: You mentioned Weber’s law as and I mentioned continental dirt, plate tectonics, evolutionary theory, the universal law of gravitation among others and the latter 4 examples, continental drift, and so on, those do not seem to mirror Weber’s law in one sense.

For instance, in biology with evolutionary theory, it seems to provide a robust, unifying concept and process. Does Weber’s law perform the same for psychology? It seems less so to me. does psychology have any unifying principles from which it can derive most or all of it is conclusions or tentative conclusions at this point in time?

Schooler: That may be a good place to finish. I’ll tell you what, it is 4 now so let’s leave it at that. I’ll incubate. That’s an excellent question to incubate on and let’s set up a time to continue our conversation.

13. Jacobsen: Thank you much.

Schooler: Okay, bye-bye.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Professor, Psychological and Brain Sciences, University of California, Santa Barbara; Director, The Center for Mindfulness and Human Potential.

[2] Individual Publication Date: August 22, 2017 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/schooler-three; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2017 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Professor Jonathan Schooler (Part Three) [Online].August 2017; 14(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/schooler-three.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, August 22). An Interview with Professor Jonathan Schooler (Part Three). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/schooler-three.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Professor Jonathan Schooler (Part Three). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A, August. 2017. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/schooler-three>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with Professor Jonathan Schooler (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/schooler-three.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Professor Jonathan Schooler (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A (August 2017). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/schooler-three.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Professor Jonathan Schooler (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 14.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/schooler-three>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Professor Jonathan Schooler (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 14.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/schooler-three.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Professor Jonathan Schooler (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 14.A (2017):August. 2017. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/schooler-three>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Professor Jonathan Schooler (Part Three) [Internet]. (2017, August; 14(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/schooler-three.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2017-08-15

An Interview with Professor Jonathan Schooler (Part Two)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 14.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Nine)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: August 15, 2017

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,579

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

An interview with Professor Jonathan Schooler. He discusses: advice for students wanting to engage in psychology; gaining research experience; being the director of The Center for Mindfulness and Human Potential; counterintuitive data; practical life skills; self–actualization and Maslow; and the remaining importance of the research.

Keywords: brain science, Jonathan Schooler, mindfulness, psychology.

An Interview with Professor Jonathan Schooler: Professor, Psychological and Brain Sciences, University of California, Santa Barbara; Director, The Center for Mindfulness and Human Potential (Part Two)[1],[2]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been edited for clarity and readability.*​

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Any advice for students with the intent to target and pursue undergraduate and graduate education in psychology?

Professor Jonathan Schooler: First off, I would say there are a lot of related fields in psychology. Routinely, students misunderstand what psychology is when they think about it first. Much of psychology is scientific in nature, it can be thought of as astronomy or biology, or chemistry, where it involves understanding empirical questions. When people hear psychology, they usually manage that you’re clinically trained and a big portion of what you do is therapy. That is certainly true for many people that call themselves psychologists, but there are many disciplines that do not involved clinical practice. I have absolutely no experience; I am not qualified to assist anybody than anyone else, except as a human being. However, students need to understand what the field of psychology entails, and scientific psychology, and the area, to understand the difference between the science of psychology and the practice of psychology.

If they are interested in the practice of psychology, they should understand there are a lot of other areas besides explicitly psychology, which involves the kinds of things they are really thinking about when they’re thinking about counselling. A lot of school’s of education have a counselling social work. Also, of course, there’s medical school and psychiatry. That is something to consider. In fact, if people want to treat people and are sufficiently talented, I would encourage either to go into psychiatry because it allows people to diagnose and provide drugs, and therapy. it is very helpful and something to consider, going to medical school as well.

If they want to follow along the lines of what I’ve pursued, then they nee to find a mentor, they need to really work tog et to know somebody in the field. They start by graduate students, who they can work with and getting to know a professor. But it is critical to find a mentor, keep your grades up, study hard, and really try to master, as best as you can, the GREs. Another thing is to make sure you are in contact with professors beforehand – make the letter thoughtfully related to their topic area.

It is another possibility. Several students have done this with me: volunteer to work with somebody whose work you find interesting such as moving there, working part-time. If you’re good, they will hire you. I have done this several times.

Jacobsen: What about acquisition of research experience at graduate and undergraduate levels? Much of the research that people will become involved in will tend to start at graduate level, but there are more and more opportunities at the undergraduate level, at more and more institutions. Do you have any advice there?

Schooler: So, people need to take advantage, as undergraduates, of office hours. It amazes me how rarely a student simply comes into the office hours and wants to talk about research, especially research I am doing in an informed and enthusiastic way.

Professors keep office hours. They keep them for those kinds of interactions. I would advise students to read up. I would find a professor who has research that you’re interested in, ask them questions, go in there, and then get excited. Then through that, you can generate ideas and become excited about their ideas.

Through that interaction, you can leverage that into opportunities for research. With respect to graduate students, one big analogy that I think is useful is having a diversified portfolio. I have two somewhat contradictory pieces of advice. I will try to resolve them.

One, you need to end up being the authority on something. You need to find your slice; your end goal; the thing you know the best in a field. That you can make a case of, wherever you’re going. Ideally, you’re going to diversify around that.

It is nice to not just be a one trick pony. You got to have that thing. How do you find that thing? This is where my other piece of advice comes in, which does seem opposite. You need to have a diversified set of interests in projects. Some are not necessarily the ones that will knock it out of the park.

But they are solid and programmatic, reliable, and so you know you’re accumulating progress. You are going to need to have solid experience and then accumulate publications, but then you also need to have the higher risk investments, which may not work.

Most of them won’t. But if one does, it will hit it out of park. Unless, you’re a genius. You can simply figure it out. My hat goes off to you. But my advice and my strategy has been this diversification approach.

Jacobsen: You are the Director for The Center for Mindfulness and Human Potential. What tasks and responsibilities come with this?

Schooler: My responsibilities will be evolving as it develops, as it is still developing. Historically, it is based on a series of projects that we have underway involving understanding the nature of mindfulness, exploring the benefits of programs that enhance mindfulness and other aspects of human potential and understanding the factors that underpin those benefits.

My responsibility involves overseeing the research and speaking with potential benefactors about contributing to it. Another very important aspect of our research is being supported by the Institute of Educational Science. It involves examining the benefits of introducing mindfulness practices into school settings and exploring the way they assist teachers and students in maximizing mindfulness.

Schooler: The major counterintuitive thing has been the ease with which we have been able to produce sustained and dramatic improvements in people’s combined wellbeing, cognitive performance, and changes in brain activity.

Jacobsen: What practical life skills can come from this line of research?

Schooler: We think this can be transformational. In that, it helps people to help themselves by appreciating their capacities for mental control and self-actualization. People can direct those skills towards whatever it is that they most want to manifest.

Jacobsen: You mentioned self-actualization. Does this research line to Abraham Maslow and his hierarchy?

Schooler: It does in spirit. We believe that the priorities that were expressed by Maslow and the Human Potential Movement were right on. The approach that we’re taking, however, is more modern and draws on research in mindfulness, mental sets, and the refinement of potential capacities.

Jacobsen: Why does this research center remain important to you?

Schooler: I believe the center is a way to integrate the insights of science and to merge those with the driving goals of a society.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Professor, Psychological and Brain Sciences, University of California, Santa Barbara; Director, The Center for Mindfulness and Human Potential.

[2] Individual Publication Date: August 15, 2017 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-professor-jonathan-schooler-part-two; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2017 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Professor Jonathan Schooler (Part Two) [Online].August 2017; 14(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-professor-jonathan-schooler-part-two.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, August 15). An Interview with Professor Jonathan Schooler (Part Two). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-professor-jonathan-schooler-part-two.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Professor Jonathan Schooler (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A, August. 2017. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-professor-jonathan-schooler-part-two>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with Professor Jonathan Schooler (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-professor-jonathan-schooler-part-two.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Professor Jonathan Schooler (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A (August 2017). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-professor-jonathan-schooler-part-two.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Professor Jonathan Schooler (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 14.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-professor-jonathan-schooler-part-two>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Professor Jonathan Schooler (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 14.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-professor-jonathan-schooler-part-two.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Professor Jonathan Schooler (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 14.A (2017):August. 2017. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-professor-jonathan-schooler-part-two>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Professor Jonathan Schooler (Part Two) [Internet]. (2017, August; 14(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-professor-jonathan-schooler-part-two.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2017-08-08

An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Six)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 14.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Ten)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: August 8, 2017

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,395

ISSN 2369-6885

Gordon Guyatt

Abstract

An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC. He discusses: practical health tips; most recent research; journalists and medical reporting; medical doctors and researchers making the research more accessible for journalists; being bothered when reading the news; wife as a researcher; collaborations with wife; organ replacement with machines; Metformin and use of substances without a prior condition; David Sackett and evidence-based medicine; genetic therapy for diseases; keeping Canada “competitive”; costs of medicine going up over time; and final feelings and thoughts.

Keywords: Canada, Gordon Guyatt, medicine.

An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Six)[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been edited for clarity and readability.*​

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Aside from keeping aware of bad medicine, or knowing the research at large, what are the most practical tips Canadians can take into account for their own health, outside of quitting smoking?

Professor Gordon Guyatt: First, they don’t need to keep track of too many things. What they need to do is when they suffer from health problems, find out something about them and then they go to clinicians to help, asking clinicians about what the evidence is what is being suggested.

They should stop smoke. It would be one major thing people could unequivocally do for their health. Beyond that, there is strikingly little that you can be confident of. So we don’t know the best diets for improving health. We don’t know if particular diets are better than one another. We have a sense that it’s probably a good thing to exercise.

The evidence of the merits of the degree of impact that prevention might have on your health is limited. We have to screen for breast cancers, screening for colon cancer, and it turns out, the gains in terms of improving life span by those inventions are very minimal. You have to be screening hundreds if not thousands of individuals to have a single individual whose life span is prolonged.

So there is a lot of talk about prevention and trying to eat whatever you perceive as a healthy diet, or exercising, can’t be bad, but whether it’s really only going to have major positive health effects is much less certain.

2. Jacobsen: We last talked several months ago. I want to ask an update. What is your most recent research or research that’s ongoing?

Guyatt: I work with a number of people. It’s been a long time since I initiated my own research endeavors. I have much more fun helping other folks to lead theirs. I already mentioned PJ Devereaux who is working on investigation and management to prevent adverse cardiovascular events after noncardiac surgery.

Mohit Bhandari is leading the world in terms of interventions for orthopedic injuries. He’s the one who also is investigating low and middle-income country trauma, epidemiology, and eventually interventions to deal with that. I also have colleagues who work in the intensive care unit conducting clinical trials.

One of those trials in intensive care units is looking at whether treatments that have been around for a while in patients to prevent gastrointestinal bleeding may be doing more harm than good. Another colleague, who happens to be my wife, who is also an intensive care specialist, is looking at how we can improve the outcome of organ transplants by improving the care of organ donors who are in critical care units. So those are ones that come to mind in which I am involved.

3. Jacobsen: I’m going to make a transition to public information. So this is more self-reflective about journalists. We apparently live in an area of “fake news.” There’s a large amount of responsibility in being a journalist and delivering accurate information to the public.

I do not necessarily mean more tabloid magazines but in serious outlets. What are some mistakes that are common among journalists in general, when they report on medicine or new medical discoveries?

Guyatt: I am extremely sympathetic to the problems of journalists reporting health claims; we actually did some work in this area. I worked with journalists and published a paper suggesting guidance with the journalists. It was 15 or 20 years ago. My sympathies are because journalists, from my limited understanding of the journalistic world, are competing for space.

In the competition for space, it will be much more challenging if you report what might be an active, possible new treatment with possible modest effects, versus a new treatment that has bigger effects.  Most of the time our advances are limited and require cautious interpretation and that would possibly be less interesting to the general public and less likely to get an editor’s approval or a publication.

Health journalists have a big challenge that way. They can be involved with treatments that have been shown to be useless, or next to useless, that can legitimately grab their attention, especially when a lot of people use the ‘treatment.’ There are areas where the public has major concerns, so, for instance, we recently produced guidelines about the best way of using opioids for chronic noncancer pain.  This would be an area of major journalistic attention because of the opioid epidemic and its consequences.

But in many cases, it’s a challenge for journalists if they are going to operate at high integrity, follow various rules that we have suggested, knowing some of the basic principles of trustworthy versus less trustworthy evidence.  It’s also a good idea to be extremely attentive to issues of conflict of interest.  A researcher comes up with a new finding of whatever sort, and the researchers, even if they do not have a financial conflict of interest, they typically have an intellectual conflict of interest. Everybody thinks their own research is the best and everybody should pay attention to what they have found and what they have found must be closer to the truth.

As a result, the best people to go to about a research finding would not necessarily be the people who made the finding but other people working in the area who are in the position to take a much more dispassionate approach to what is found with that problem.  They shouldn’t be direct competitors who might want to underplay in general, but rather somebody who does not have either financial or intellectual conflict of interest would be a better way of getting closer to the truth.

4. Jacobsen: How can medical doctors or researchers make the information more accessible for journalists who don’t have, frankly, the expertise?

Guyatt: Gosh. I would say by explaining things, giving explanations that are understandable to the health journalists and teach them about the principles underlying the research. I try to do that all the time. So, for instance, in this conversation, when big data came up, I tried to explain why big data is not particularly trustworthy in terms of telling us about the magnitude of treatment effects.

That’s when talking about world research and other people’s research, an attempt to explain the underlying principles of what makes some evidence more trustworthy than others is what some researchers could do to help journalists.

5. Jacobsen: What is bothering you when you read the news and it’s reporting on medical science?

Guyatt: It is the failure to recognize the limitations. Indeed, it is unfortunate and I’m sympathetic to journalists who feel compelled to present things as more exciting or better than they actually are. There is a failure to attend to the conflict of interest of the sources that are being cited. Sometimes, journalists get missions about what they think is a good idea and what problems are, which is a natural human tendency; we believe in something, and so that is what we see.

People with particular missions can in every way run into trouble with difficulty seeing things.

6. Jacobsen: Your wife is also a researcher.

Guyatt: That’s right. She is a specialist who deals with critical illness in intensive care units and does research work in that area.

7. Jacobsen: Have you done any collaborations with her?

Guyatt: Yes, lots. She’s switched directions in her research career. She, for the first 15 years or so, did academic research looking at people who are critically ill who have breathing tubes in to breathe for them. Her first research was a number of important studies dealing with ventilation of people when you put in a breathing tube and then we breathe for them.

8. Jacobsen: Not only with organ donation, what about the future of, reasonable near future, organ replacement with machines? So as with artificial heart, a pacemaker for people that have Parkinson’s disease for and replacement of function for the damaged portions of their brain.

Guyatt: You are talking about areas beyond my expertise, but I think there is some evidence that warrants optimism in Parkinson’s disease. But probably for a very limited proportion of that population.

Mechanical heart transplants are not and never will be successful soon over the long term.  They may help people through a short period of time while they’re waiting for a human heart, but the mechanical hearts for not for the long term – that requires human hearts. It is, of course, a great priority in making sure that they try to optimize the availability of heart transplants and have the donors managed in such a way that the best outcomes can be possible for people who receive those transplants.

9. Jacobsen: There’s, maybe, 70 million Americans prescribed Metformin, the diabetes drug.

Guyatt: Yes.

10. Jacobsen: Some use this when they don’t even have diabetes. That is when I extrapolate that to people also using substances for “health” reasons when they don’t have a condition for which the substance is meant for, what is a concern for you as someone entrenched in the field?

Guyatt: I have no idea how much this happens. The question, why are people doing this? My concern in that area is what is called too much medicine. So why might people without diabetes take metformin?

One reason they might be doing so is the industry is now doing trials to prevent diabetes, which is extending the definition to lower and lower levels of blood sugar. So, you have people at lower and lower risks taking treatments, so you have people treating pre-diabetes and pre-hypertension.

The problem with those situations is you’re treating lower and lower risk individuals. You are expanding the proportion of the population taking the medication. You may well be doing more harm than good. So I don’t know why people, the people that you were thinking of, are taking medications, but one reason may be that the medical community has hugely expanded its range in intrusion into people’s lives – sometimes, unequivocally doing more good than harm. But as these expand the somewhat questionable range of sick people, almost nobody over 50 is actually healthy anymore.

11. Jacobsen: In our first interview, we talked about evidence-based medicine. Who was David Sackett? What was the importance of him to evidence-based medicine?

Guyatt: David Sackett was a guy who laid the groundwork for evidence-based medicine. Dave was my personal mentor and established the basis of my career. I, of course, learned enormous amounts. He was one of the pioneers with a clear vision about how physicians were not using evidence often to inform their patient care and made major contributions to advancing the science of how to do the best experiments and interpret their results in such a way that would optimize patient care.

He had a major initiative in starting to teach how to understand and interpret the evidence which was not part of medical training at the time. He talked about critical appraisal of the medical literature and then moved towards evidence-based medicine. He articulated many of the fundamental principles that subsequently became evidence-based medicine. Basically, he set the direction for all that we have done in disseminating evidence-based approaches worldwide.

12. Jacobsen: What diseases are given genetic therapy?

Guyatt: If you mean manipulating genes in one way or another for cancer therapy, there’s nothing I do in my clinical practice I would classify as gene therapy. So that it would be very sub-specialized at the moment.

13. Jacobsen: If you take Canada’s medical innovations and its medical research community, what can keep Canada “competitive” in that international market where those that lead in advances will lead in the technology?

Guyatt: This has to do with where you decide to specialize and building up, finding people with talents and leadership skills, and then you can become competitive and a world leader. So, 20 years or 25 years after evidence-based medicine got started, McMaster is one institution in Canada, not a big institution, considered the worldwide leader in continued advances in evidence-based medicine.

Another area in Hamilton and across Canada where a guy named Jack Hersh came, probably 40-50 years ago now, and trained a whole host of people who are still leading the world in a management of thrombosis. He is a world leader and in Canada. I have no doubt PJ Devereaux is leading the world in addressing cardiovascular complications of noncardiac surgery. He is training a whole host of people who is going continue to lead the world in the next generation.

Same with another colleague who is leading the world in orthopedic trauma clinical trials and training folks who will continue to play international leadership roles. So I, of course, am familiar with what goes on in my institution. I’m sure there are many people across Canada, saying, “Here’s an area that our institution is providing international leadership.”

If you find the right people and have the institutional commitment and focus, it’s quite possible for Canadians to take international leadership in a whole host of medical areas.

14. Jacobsen: Do you foresee the costs of medicine going up further over time for Canadians?

Guyatt: Yes, the main drivers of the cost of medicine are technological advances that have improved people’s health. Now, I think there’s a way of controlling things considerably if for example, we extend single payer to drugs, and if we get tough with not letting drug companies charge exorbitantly.

However, it’s a good thing that there’s always going to be a continual upward pressure in terms of cost because we keep discovering new ways to keep people healthy and these technological advances require some resources.

So I think by good management of the system we can limit costs, but the cost pressures are going to continue to the extent that we continue to find important new advances, technological advances, that contribute positively to health. In that sense, the cost pressures are a very good thing.

15. Jacobsen: Any final thoughts? Any thoughts or feelings based on the conversation today?

Guyatt: No, we covered a wide range of areas. One thought I had is you found out about some of my limitations in terms of breadth of knowledge about what’s going on outside of the areas I’m familiar with; I hopefully have offered something within the areas I am familiar with.

16. Jacobsen: Thank you very much for your time, and I hope you have a good day.

Guyatt: Okay, take care, bye-bye.

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  24. Picard, A. (2015, May 25). David Sackett: The father of evidence-based medicine. Retrieved from http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/health/david-sackett-the-father-of-evidence-based-medicine/article24607930/.
  25. Priest, L. (2012, June 17). What you should know about doctors and self-referral fees. Retrieved from http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/ask-a-health-expert/what-you-should-know-about-doctors-and-self-referral-fees/article4267688/.
  26. Rege, A. (2015, August 5). Why medically unnecessary surgeries still happen. Retrieved from http://www.beckershospitalreview.com/population-health/why-medically-unnecessary-surgeries-still-happen.html.
  27. Science Daily. (2016, October 26). Ultrasound after tibial fracture surgery does not speed up healing or improve function. Retrieved from https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/10/161026141643.htm.
  28. Spears, T. (2016, July 7). Agriculture Canada challenged WHO’s cancer warnings on meat: newly-released documents. Retrieved from http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/agriculture-canada-challenged-whos-cancer-warnings-on-meat-according-to-newly-released-documents.
  29. Tomsic, M. (2015, February 10). Dying. It’s Tough To Discuss, But Doesn’t Have To Be. Retrieved from http://wfae.org/post/dying-its-tough-discuss-doesnt-have-be.
  30. Webometrics. (2010). 1040 Highly Cited Researchers (h>100) according to their Google Scholar Citations public profiles. Retrieved from http://www.webometrics.info/en/node/58.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Distinguished University Professor, Health Research Methods, Evidence and Impact, McMaster University.

[2] Individual Publication Date: August 8, 2017, at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-five; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2017, at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] B.Sc., University of Toronto; M.D., General Internist, McMaster University Medical School; M.Sc., Design, Management, and Evaluation, McMaster University.

[4] Credit: McMaster University.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Six) [Online].August 2017; 14(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-six.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, August 8). An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Six). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-six.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Six). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A, August. 2017. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-six>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Six).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-six.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Six).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A (August 2017). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-six.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Six)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 14.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-six>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Six)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 14.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-six.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Six).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 14.A (2017):August. 2017. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-six>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Six) [Internet]. (2017, August; 14(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-six.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2 Comments
2017-08-01

An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Five)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 14.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Ten)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: August 1, 2017

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,935

ISSN 2369-6885

Gordon Guyatt

Abstract

An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC. He discusses: concerns about bogus medicine; big data and upper limits in health outcomes; coffee and randomized control trials; exciting research and health outcomes; ways the general public can avoid snake oil; possible examples of snake oil; antibiotic resistance; impressive research; vitamin fads; unsolved medical diseases; and cancer in Canada.

Keywords: Canada, coffee, Gordon Guyatt, medicine.

An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Five)[1],[2]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been edited for clarity and readability.*​

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, there are pervasive ideas in Canada, people with a functional healthcare system, a series of just bogus medical science and treatments. What is one of the main concerns with regards to them as a professional, a clinician?

It could be the whole gambit. It could be homeopathy; it could be crystals; it could be fake cancer therapies or private clinics giving stem cell therapies. You name it.

Dr. Gordon Guyatt: My familiarity with the magnitude of all of the things that you mentioned is limited. Some of the interventions are benign and not particularly costly, and of not much concern as a result. The interventions that might have harm associated with them, and would be more costly, would be a greater concern.

It has been speculated that homeopathy and alternative medicine and other interventions of that sort have a benefit because of the way medicine has evolved in terms of much more emphasis on technological aspects, and much less emphasis on caring and listening. I did not know the evidence if anyone has followed seriously over time, the use of alternative medicine.

I suspect the data may not be accurate, and so it is speculative whether their use has increased. Speculative on my part, but in the course of my 40 years in clinical practice, the emphasis on technological aspects has increased, and caring and listening to patients has decreased, and this might contribute to increased use of alternative interventions.

2. Jacobsen: We keep pushing into areas of bigger and bigger data, so we have more information about what the outcomes of certain treatments might be. Is there going to be an upper limit to how far we can take the health span of citizens for instance in Canada based on these advancements?

Guyatt: You’ve linked two things, but I would immediately be inclined to unlink. There is a great deal of excess optimism about what we can learn about treatments from large databases; large databases are essentially big observational studies that are terribly limited in making inferences about treatments because people who get treatment A are typically different than people who get treatment B.

As a result, one can make very easily spurious inferences about the effect of therapy. For an example, people who take antioxidant vitamins have less cancer and less cardiovascular disease than people who do not use antioxidant vitamins. Unfortunately, it has nothing to do with antioxidant vitamins.

In randomized trials, there is no difference in cancer or cardiovascular disease in those who do and do not use antioxidant vitamins. The reason people who take antioxidant vitamins do better is that different people take antioxidant vitamins than those who don’t, and those people are destined to do better in terms of cardiovascular disease and cancer.

This is the fundamental problem faced by large databases. It can record if people receive treatment or not. What they cannot do is ensure that the people who did and did not use the treatment were similar with respect to their prognosis, and likely outcomes had they not used treatment.

Indeed, the likelihood is that they were different, and that leads to a biased testament effect. So the large databases are going to provide some information, but we are still going to need randomized trials to sort out other treatments. So that’s one thing.

A completely separate issue is life span. Medical treatments have certainly contributed to that, but advances in nutrition and housing and poverty reduction had more influence on extending the life span than having medical treatments.

Once again, speculative as to what the limits of biology are, the life span in advanced industrial society, most advanced industrial societies, particularly those with low-income gradients keep going up, up, and up. I think it’s speculative as to what the limit of that would be.

3. Jacobsen: You have given another common example, which is one that shows up in the news quite often. It’s coffee, and statements about its health effects. Is it possible or has it been extended, the research about antioxidants, for instance, in improving health, in randomized control trial? It doesn’t necessarily show up. Is it the same for coffee?

Guyatt: It would be challenging to do randomized trials of coffee. I don’t know that they’ve been done, but again, any influences about the health effects of coffee are confounded by the fact that there are all sorts of differences between coffee drinkers and non-coffee drinkers. So until we have randomized trials, we’re going to have low quality evidence about the impact of coffee on various health outcomes.

4. Jacobsen: If we’re looking at the developments in medical research now, from a personal perspective, what is some of the more exciting research in development? From a professional perspective, what research has the most potential for improving health outcomes, especially for the aforementioned population such as the low income?

Guyatt: The best way to improve the health of low income folks is to decrease income gradients and that would have far more impact than any particular health interventions. If we could get everyone in society to stop smoking that would have a big impact: lifetime smokers have seven years shorter lifetimes than the lifespans of non-smokers, a far bigger gradient that can come from any particular health interventions.

So if we can persuade everyone to stop smoking, that would have an enormous impact on health. While medical innovations have made a big impact on both quality and quantity, there are other things like income gradients, like health habits – in particular, smoking – that have a bigger impact

Medical treatment has made a big impact on various areas, including cardiovascular disease and treatments and cancer. Those were made because those were the biggest sources of morbidity and mortality in society. That is where I see the biggest continuing potential: certainly, within the area of cancer, our understanding biology has advanced enormously.

We will keep seeing new therapies and prevention. Many cancers which were uniformly fatal have now been turned into chronic diseases. I expect that to continue.

5. Jacobsen: As a practical tip, how can the general public avoid snake oil, bogus remedies? Something simple.

Guyatt: What they can do is learn the basic principles of deciding what evidence is trustworthy and what is not.  That should be possible. A colleague of mine by the name of Andy Oxlan has completed a large randomized trial in Africa of teaching school age kids about recognizing, as you put it, snake oil from legitimate health claims.

His randomized trial showed that teaching the kids substantially improved their ability to make those distinctions. As a side effect, their parents’ ability to make those decisions improved. These are very low resource African settings. So there’s plenty of information that is potentially available to consumers about health claims.

Should people decide to educate themselves, they all would be in a position to make judgments themselves. They should certainly be in the position, even with quite limited knowledge, of asking their clinicians to justify what evidence there is to base what is being suggested and to challenge the physician or the clinician in explaining – to be made knowledgeable of the evidence that supports what they’re doing.

6. Jacobsen: Some of these fakes or snake oil sellers are predatory rather than true believers in it. Do any prominent examples come into mind?

Guyatt: I am maybe fortunately or unfortunately quite insulated from exposure to that. If I heard of anything, it would be through newspapers, and your knowledge would be as good as mine.

7. Jacobsen: There have been some international concerns about the effectiveness of antibiotics in the long term.

Guyatt: The concerns are multiple. There are many, many examples of antibiotics becoming ineffective as a result of bacteria developing resistance to the antibiotics. So that is a very real issue. It raises legitimate concern and suggestions that we should make sure that we’re only using the antibiotics when they are really warranted.

Efforts are ongoing to try and limit the use of unnecessary or inappropriate antibiotics; to the extent that we can limit their inappropriate use we can limit the emergence of resistance.

8. Jacobsen: Who is someone that’s combating or doing research to combat upcoming diseases that seem to be growing issues that really impresses you?

Guyatt: Oh gosh. I’m influenced by what I see immediately around me. So, efforts at, in terms of prevention, in low and middle-income countries reducing the increasing rates of motor vehicle accidents. As low and middle-income countries become higher income, it becomes a big problem in terms of motor vehicle accidents.

The efforts that can be made in terms of travel safety.  We have an emerging epidemic of motor vehicle accidents and the efforts to deal with that so far have not been made. There has been better medical management that the people have undergone, but the much bigger impact could be made in improving the safety of vehicular traffic.

That’s one major emerging threat where efforts to prevent it from growing would be public health, and regulatory efforts rather than simply medical interventions.

9. Jacobsen: In the past, vitamin E was a health fad. A more modern one, an ongoing one, is vitamin D. What is the research? What does it say?

Guyatt: The research does not support major health benefits for vitamin D for most people. Maybe for at least some sub-populations, there is a modest reduction in fractures. And perhaps in the elderly, a reduction in falls.  Very rarely, you have people who actually have serious vitamin d deficiency and they obviously need treatment, but those are few and far between. So that cancer prevention, for instance, evidence suggests that they do not have cancer preventing benefits and most of the other putative benefits that I have countered have not be substantiated. So maybe in subpopulations, at least a reduction in fractures and falls and that is really about all that’s been established.

10. Jacobsen: If you take into account instead of medical diseases around, and if you were to take into account your own personal fascination with one that’s unsolved, what is it and what are its characteristics?

Guyatt: So, one that occurs to me is an area investigation that one of the folks I work with by the name of PJ Devereaux is investigating is cardiovascular events after noncardiac surgery. Over the last 50 years, there’s been a huge increase in people undergoing noncardiac surgery – for conditions that we didn’t use to be able to treat surgically, e.g. joint replacements.

Associated with the increased number of people undergoing surgery, we’re operating on older and older people, and as the technology improves, we get to do that. The benefits are great, but it means that millions and millions of more people are undergoing noncardiac surgery. We have a substantial public health problem in terms of heart attacks and deaths from cardiovascular events following noncardiac surgery.

This has been a hugely under investigated area. Dr. Devereaux has been, as I said, leading the world in terms of starting to look at the magnitude of the problem, find out who is at risk, and start working towards developing strategies that would limit the heart attacks and deaths after noncardiac surgery.

11. Jacobsen: What is the general rate of cancer in the Canadian population?

Guyatt: I am a clinical epidemiologist in terms of investigating treatments and diagnosis and not somebody who follows the major Epidemiology trends.

The limited amount that I do know focuses on something I mentioned earlier in this conversation, which is lung cancer deaths decreasing as smoking has decreased but there could still be a greater reduction because many more Canadians continue to smoke than should. As long as that happens, lung cancer and some other cancers will continue to be a big problem.

References

  1. Bennett, K. (2014, October 31). New hospital funding model ‘a shot in the dark,’ McMaster study says. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/new-hospital-funding-model-a-shot-in-the-dark-mcmaster-study-says-1.2817321.
  2. Blackwell, T. (2015, February 1). World Health Organization’s advice based on weak evidence, Canadian-led study says. Retrieved from http://news.nationalpost.com/health/world-health-organizations-advice-extremely-untrustworthy-and-not-evidence-based-study.
  3. Branswell, H. (2014, January 30). You should be avoiding these products on drug-store shelves. Retrieved from http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/health/you-should-be-avoiding-these-products-on-drug-store-shelves/article16606013/?page=all.
  4. Canadian News Wire. (2015, October 8). The Canadian Medical Hall of Fame announces 2016 inductees. Retrieved from http://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/the-canadian-medical-hall-of-fame-announces-2016-inductees-531287111.html.
  5. Cassar, V. & Bezzina, F. (2015, March 25). The evidence is clear. Retrieved from http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20150325/life-features/The-evidence-is-clear.561338.
  6. Clarity Research. (2016). Clinical Advances Through Research and Information Translation. Retrieved from http://www.clarityresearch.ca/gordon-guyatt/.
  7. Craggs, S. (2015, July 21). We can actually win this one, Tom Mulcair tells Hamilton crowd. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/we-can-actually-win-this-one-tom-mulcair-tells-hamilton-crowd-1.3162688.
  8. Escott, S. (2013, December 2). Mac professor named top health researcher. Retrieved from http://www.thespec.com/news-story/4249292-mac-professor-named-top-health-researcher/.
  9. Feise, R. & Cooperstein, R. (2014, February 1). Putting the Patient First. Retrieved from http://www.dynamicchiropractic.com/mpacms/dc/article.php?id=56855.
  10. Frketich, J. (2016, July 8). 63 McMaster University investigators say health research funding is flawed. Retrieved from http://www.thespec.com/news-story/6759872-63-mcmaster-university-investigators-say-health-research-funding-is-flawed/.
  11. Helsingin yliopisto. (2017, March 23). Clot or bleeding? Anticoagulants walk the line between two risks. Retrieved from https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/03/170323083909.htm.
  12. Hopper, T. (2012, August 24). You’re pregnant, now sign this petition: Group slams Ontario doctors’ ‘coercive’ tactics to fight cutbacks. Retrieved from http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/youre-pregnant-now-sign-this-petition-group-criticizes-doctors-who-encourage-patients-to-sign-anti-cutbacks-letter.
  13. Kerr, T. (2011, May 30). Thomas Kerr: Insite has science on its side. Retrieved from http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/thomas-kerr-vancouvers-insite-clinic-has-been-a-resounding-success.
  14. Kirkey, S. (2015, October 29). WHO gets it wrong again: As with SARS and H1N1, its processed-meat edict went too far. Retrieved from http://news.nationalpost.com/health/is-whos-smackdown-of-processed-meat-a-considerable-overcall-or-just-informing-the-public-of-health-risks.
  15. Kolata, G. (2016, August 3). Why ‘Useless’ Surgery Is Still Popular. Retrieved from https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/04/upshot/the-right-to-know-that-an-operation-is-next-to-useless.html?_r=0.
  16. Maxmen, A. (2011, July 6). Nutrition advice: The vitamin D-lemma. Retrieved from http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110706/full/475023a.html.
  17. McKee, M. (2014, October 2). The Power of Single-Person Medical Experiments. Retrieved from http://discovermagazine.com/2014/nov/17-singled-out.
  18. McMaster University. (2016). Gordon Guyatt. Retrieved from http://fhs.mcmaster.ca/ceb/faculty_member_guyatt.htm.
  19. Neale, T. (2009, December 12). Doctor’s Orders: Practicing Evidence-Based Medicine Is a Challenge. Retrieved from http://www.medpagetoday.com/practicemanagement/practicemanagement/17486.
  20. Nolan, D. (2011, December 31). Mac’s Dr. Guyatt to enter Order of Canada. Retrieved from http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2227923-mac-s-dr-guyatt-to-enter-order-of-canada/.
  21. O’Dowd, A. (2016, July 21). Exercise could be as effective as surgery for knee damage. Retrieved from https://www.onmedica.com/newsArticle.aspx?id=e13a0a94-5e96-43b9-86b7-7de237630beb.
  22. Palmer, K. & Guyatt, G. (2014, December 16). New funding model a leap of faith for Canadian hospitals. Retrieved from http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/why-new-funding-model-a-leap-of-faith-for-canadian-hospitals/article22100796/.
  23. Park, A. (2012, February 7). No Clots in Coach? Debunking ‘Economy Class Syndrome’. Retrieved from http://healthland.time.com/2012/02/07/no-clots-in-coach-debunking-economy-class-syndrome/.
  24. Picard, A. (2015, May 25). David Sackett: The father of evidence-based medicine. Retrieved from http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/health/david-sackett-the-father-of-evidence-based-medicine/article24607930/.
  25. Priest, L. (2012, June 17). What you should know about doctors and self-referral fees. Retrieved from http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/ask-a-health-expert/what-you-should-know-about-doctors-and-self-referral-fees/article4267688/.
  26. Rege, A. (2015, August 5). Why medically unnecessary surgeries still happen. Retrieved from http://www.beckershospitalreview.com/population-health/why-medically-unnecessary-surgeries-still-happen.html.
  27. Science Daily. (2016, October 26). Ultrasound after tibial fracture surgery does not speed up healing or improve function. Retrieved from https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/10/161026141643.htm.
  28. Spears, T. (2016, July 7). Agriculture Canada challenged WHO’s cancer warnings on meat: newly-released documents. Retrieved from http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/agriculture-canada-challenged-whos-cancer-warnings-on-meat-according-to-newly-released-documents.
  29. Tomsic, M. (2015, February 10). Dying. It’s Tough To Discuss, But Doesn’t Have To Be. Retrieved from http://wfae.org/post/dying-its-tough-discuss-doesnt-have-be.
  30. Webometrics. (2010). 1040 Highly Cited Researchers (h>100) according to their Google Scholar Citations public profiles. Retrieved from http://www.webometrics.info/en/node/58.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Distinguished University Professor, Health Research Methods, Evidence and Impact, McMaster University.

[2] Individual Publication Date: August 1, 2017 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-five; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2017 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] B.Sc., University of Toronto; M.D., General Internist, McMaster University Medical School; M.Sc., Design, Management, and Evaluation, McMaster University.

[4] Credit: McMaster University.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Five) [Online].August 2017; 14(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-five.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, August 1). An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Five). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-five.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Five). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A, August. 2017. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-five>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Five).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-five.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Five).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A (August 2017). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-five.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Five)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 14.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-five>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Five)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 14.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-five.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Five).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 14.A (2017):August. 2017. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-five>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Five) [Internet]. (2017, August; 14(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-five.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

3 Comments
2017-07-22

An Interview with Grand Master Scott Robb: Founder, Darkside International Ministry (Part Three)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 14.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Nine)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: July 22, 2017

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,087

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

An interview with Grand Master Scott Robb. He discusses: clarification on the Satanic Laws; the most crucial Satanic Laws and ethics; ideals; worship and ritualism; Satanic demographics; covert and overt theocracies; striving, to a degree, to be like Satan; geography of the Darkside International Ministry; Electronic Frontier Canada’s Blue Ribbon Campaign; violation of rights; and the Black Ribbon Campaign.

Keywords: Darkside International Ministry, grand master, religion, Scott Robb.

An Interview with Grand Master Scott Robb: Founder, Darkside International Ministry (Part Three)[1],[2]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been edited for clarity and readability.*​

*I had more questions.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: We discussed Satanic ethics with the implications of the “sins.” Also, there are Satanic Laws or Lex Satanicus, namely:

  1. Do not share your troubles, or give opinions or advice, unless you are sure that others want to hear them. Complaining is the refuge of those who have no self-reliance.
  2. When in another’s dwelling, show them respect or else do not go there. Or, if a guest in your dwelling annoys you, treat them cruelly.
  3. Do not steal that which does not belong to you.
  4. Do not make sexual advances unless the other individual is willing and of, or over, the age of consent.
  5. Do not harm young children under any circumstances.
  6. Do not kill non-human animals unless in defense or for food.
  7. Do not deceive yourself with absurd exaggerations of who, or what, you are.
  8. Fear not men, nor fates, nor gods, nor laughter of folk folly, nor any other power.
  9. When in neutral territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask them to stop. If they do not, use whatever force is necessary to defend yourself.
  10. If you have used magic successfully to obtain your desires, acknowledge its power.
  11. Otherwise, do what you will.

My hope and trust remains most people adhere to these in some form or other, even if not cognizant of it. However, I realize the reality. Many imply the Harm Principle and Utilitarian ethics, with something interesting.

An active form of the Utilitarian ethic through practical recommendations: if something is harmful, even mildly, then this or that can help solve the problem. It is like anesthesia for the purpose of surgery – minor pain for eventual good.

These recommendations range from personal complaints to sex, and to realistic self-perceptions and to stop feeling fear. Does this seem correct to you? Also, for number 11, what is the standard misinterpretation of it – as often happens with the variation from Crowley?

Grand Master Scott Robb: Ya, I would say you are correct in seeing our Laws as ranging from personal complaints to sex and to realistic self-perceptions and prevent fear. I think the standard misinterpretation of “do what you will” is that it must mean do whatever you want. Like most laws of the land, there are always some who perceive written laws contrary to how they were intended. Similar to Americans who misunderstand the second amendment, as a guarantee for anyone to carry a gun, without acknowledging the first part of the amendment requiring a “well-regulated militia”. In reality, it means that one can exercise what has become known as “human rights”, what one puts their mind to and does not bother or harm others.

2. Jacobsen: Of these Lex Satanicus and the Satanic ethics, what ones seem most crucial to you, especially in functional utility in daily life – as in the most often used in day-to-day activities and interactions?

Robb: I think an essence of the whole is used in day-to-day activities, that being to live one’s own life without interfering with anyone else’s. I think that is a common theme with our Laws and Sins to be as self-reliant and independent as possible.

3. Jacobsen: Christians aim to become in the likeness and image of God through Jesus Christ. They want to become Christ-like. Muslims want to become more Mohammed-like. These represent ideals for about half of the world’s population in Christianity and Islam, respectively, as you know. Any words on these purported ideal figures or the attempts to become like them?

Robb: Similar to Buddhists who believe that when one dies they become part of the transcendental spirit, or enlightened being, they call “the Buddha”. It is definitely a common theme among most of the world’s religions to become more like their perfected-spirit, or God. As Satanists we look at this in a slightly different way. We accept that we are not perfect beings, and that we never will be, but we exist to be the best we can. Through constant research and acquiring as much knowledge as we can, and passing that knowledge on to future generations. That is how we create our legacy, to make sure that we are remembered after we die. As Anton LaVey has even said, as long as we are remembered, even if remembered by only one person in each future generation, we will never die. The important part is controlling what we are remembered for.

4. Jacobsen: Does the worship and ritualism in the mainstream, dominant religions in the world seem primarily passive rather than active? What benefits come from the mainline religions if any?

Robb: Most mainstream religions are largely passive, until they want converts or anyone stands up to oppose them (see the reaction of Christians in America towards Atheists or to the Satanic Temple) at which time Christians, like the various Muslim denominations, become either almost or literally militant. I think that all of the world’s religions have some benefits for those who subscribe to the respective beliefs, but I don’t think that every individual can benefit from the same point of view all the time. In fact, there are millions of people raised in, and other times forced in, to religions they do not actually subscribe to. At some point they will revolt and leave whatever religion it may be. The result is increasingly militant, and often religiously misinformed, atheists who try to force all religions into the same box as Christianity (which is ridiculous because some religions have one God, some have two or more Gods, and others have no Gods), which benefits no one.

But, those who do subscribe to their religion of their own free will benefit from the level guidance, either directly from the text of their religion or from the clergy/scholars who lead in their churches or in some cases even the other members of their congregation/community, which they need at that point in their life.

5. Jacobsen: Who tends to be drawn to the Satanic message – demographics?

Robb: In my personal experience over the last 22 years, going back to when I started studying the Occult and Satanism back in 1995 (at the age of 16), I have observed that the demographic of people interested in Satanism is relatively equal among males and females and range in age from 13 years of age up to about 80-ish (I have heard from elderly people who seemed genuinely interested in learning more about Satanism and its beliefs/activities).

6. Jacobsen: As seems like the case to me, and likely to you, too, governments tend to promote religion, especially forms that keep the population at a low cultural and intellectual level. One recent example, the stoppage of the educational curricula devoted to evolution in the nation of Turkey. One, does this seem true to you? Two, if so, how is this done? Three, why is this done? Four, what can combat it? Five, is it worth it?

Robb: Some nations are run as covert, or in some cases overt, theocracies. Turkey, like all Middle Eastern nations, is very much overt theocracies that promote Islam as their state religions. Other nations, like America and Russia, for the most part at least, are run as covert theocracies. My own observation has been that it’s predominately rightwing and far-right governments, and sometimes far-left governments, that push religion more then more centre/centre-left governments. Take Canada, as an example, which was influenced by Protestant England, and was created to be a very Christian nation is now credited as one of the most (if not thee most) secular nations in the world, thanks to the 150 year history of mostly Liberal influence that has made Canada the all-inclusive nation it is today.

I think Karl Marx had it right when he wrote, “Religion is the opium of the people”. Whatever the dominant religion is in any given country, the government uses it to manipulate the people to view things in a specific way. Trump, for example, is a very chauvinist, xenophobic, homophobic, far-right Christian. He has used such views to manipulate the American citizenry who share those views and cause them to rise up and attack minorities, while at the same time colluding with an enemy state in violation of the US Constitution (which clearly states that the US cannot be influenced by foreign powers). Like Trump, Hitler, and many other leaders who use this technique, they simply take the religious views of the populous and manipulate it to fit whatever agenda they happen to have. In Hitler’s case he took a very Catholic populous in Germany and manipulated the people into believing that Jews were the murderers of Christ and, to use the actual words from some of Hitler’s own speeches, likened Jews to the “serpents” and “vipers” who needed to be exterminated, this gained Hitler the support needed to start rounding up Jews, first for deportation, but when all other nations rejected the Jews Hitler resorted to his “final solution” of extermination. Trump, today, is doing the exact same thing with Muslims. Making unsubstantiated and unwarranted claims against Muslims in his speeches. If not for other nations accepting Muslims, and other minorities, from America, it is a distinct possibility that Trump would have lined up a similar solution as Hitler. Perhaps not executions, but very likely internments of some sort.

7. Jacobsen: Satan is the bringer of light and enlightenment in Satanism. This image becomes the ideal for Satanists. Does becoming more like the image of the Devil equate to the ultimate purpose of Satanism?

Robb: First of all, “Lucifer” that is the Light Bearer (in fact, the word “Lucifer” is Latin for “light bearer”). “Satan” is Hebrew for “Accuser, Opposer, & Adversary”.

To an extent, yes, the symbol of Lucifer was chosen specifically as a symbol of Enlightenment, a pinnacle aspect of what Satanists strive for in life.

8. Jacobsen: You divide the areas for Darkside International Ministry into the Organization of the American States, European Union, African Union, Asia, and Australia. Why these divisions?

For example, the Organization of the American States includes Canada, and the Latin American and South American countries – with America – as one bloc. What efficiency, or benefit, comes from this organizational map for operations?

Robb: To make an International Religious Organization I know early on that I, as the international leader, could not possibly over see everything in every region. I knew that I would have to divide regions and create reasonable regional zones that could more easily organize our Ministry. I first researched different regions and found that internationally there are such regional organizations. The Organization of American States, European Union, and African Union actually exist (in fact, below the map of the regions the flags are actually the flags of those regional organizations). It just made logical sense, to me, to have Asia and Australia as additional regions.

As for efficiency, it means having 5 “Lord Templars” (senior council members) to meet with for our meetings, and they have their “High Templars” (council members) to assist them in their region and can take their place in meetings if necessary. They each meet within their own regions as is required for the jurisdiction in the countries of their region (should be at least once per year, some jurisdictions require meetings at least once a month).

9. Jacobsen: You support Electronic Frontier Canada’s Blue Ribbon Campaign. It is for freedom of expression. As the site notes, “This right is protected by law, including the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms (section 2), the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (article 19), and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (article 19).”

Why is freedom of expression for clear and open communication – also for the polity? How can people become involved and support it, even without explicit inclusion of the Blue Ribbon Campaign?

Robb: We only support the Blue Ribbon Campaign’s anti-censorship and freedom of speech/expression views. We simply followed the instructions on their website to get involved and support them. By contacting them to register as a supporter and to add the HTML code they supply to our website to show that we support their cause.

10. Jacobsen: Who tends to violate these rights? What can prevent them from the violation of the rights? What seems like their motivation?

Robb: Some governments, as I mentioned earlier the far-right, rightwing, and far left try to push their views while trying to crush all opposition, this is what the Satanic Temple contends with in their campaigns and political actions (of which we also support, but at present are not officially associated with). But, more often it is the rest of society. Specifically, other religious groups (most specifically Christian denominations) and, to some extent, atheists.

I am inclined to believe that the motivation of denying our rights is because we effectively represent their opposition, responsibility and enlightenment.

11. Jacobsen: Also, Darkside International Ministry is part of the Black Ribbon Campaign (for Occult Education). I note this powerful quote, from you, where you said or typed:

FBI Special Agent Kenneth V. Lanning felt this first-hand when he pointed out that Satanists are not criminals and, as a result, was accused of being a Satanist. The Black Ribbon is an important way to raise awareness of the occult, and the true practices of occultists, in order to allow the Occultists to practice there beliefs and practices in peace and not have to defend themselves from others who accuse and attack Occultists on one side and have racists, killers, child molesters, and other criminals attempting to get out of prison time by claiming a connection to Occult organizations.

I understand the situation more from reading this. At root, it’s unfair scapegoating, of the occult and occultists, with the extreme cases listed in the quotation.

As a further introduction to the Black Ribbon Campaign, through information not necessarily in the webpage, what is it? How can people help out in its dissemination? What are the barriers to its dissemination? What have been some of its honest failures and successes, if any?

Robb: The Black Ribbon Campaign is a campaign I started, as a side project, to educate the general public and to raise awareness of the Occult and what it actually is. Mainly what is known as the metaphysical realm (also known as “the hidden sciences”). Which, aside from Satanism, also includes many other aspects that fall into the category of Parapsychology (for example, use of correct use of Witchboards which is sold to the public under the name Ouija boards which everyone seems to mispronounce, theory and practice of magic, meditation, astral-projection, lucid dreaming, psychic ability, paranormal activity, and ufology). After I completed seminary and received my “Reverend” title from the Universal Life Church Seminary in 2000/01, I received an honorary degree in Metaphysics for my work as a scholar and educator of the Occult.

People can help be showing support with the display of our Black Ribbon Campaign logo on their websites, to wear Black Ribbons and inform others of the campaign, and to donate what they can using the PayPal donation link at the bottom of the Black Ribbon Campaign page.

The barrier thus far is the fact we only had a small show of support for the Black Ribbon Campaign. The success of the Black Ribbon Campaign has been that we have reached a few interested people over the years. The most obvious failure, as I said, is we have not had enough exposure to be more successful in the Campaign.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Grand Master, High Priest, Founder, and President, Reverend Scott Robb, Darkside International Ministry.

[2] Individual Publication Date: July 22, 2017, at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-grand-master-scott-robb-founder-darkside-international-ministry-part-three; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2017, at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Grand Master Scott Robb: Founder, Darkside International Ministry (Part Three) [Online].July 2017; 14(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-grand-master-scott-robb-founder-darkside-international-ministry-part-three.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, July 22). An Interview with Grand Master Scott Robb: Founder, Darkside International Ministry (Part Three). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-grand-master-scott-robb-founder-darkside-international-ministry-part-three.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Grand Master Scott Robb: Founder, Darkside International Ministry (Part Three). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A, July. 2017. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-grand-master-scott-robb-founder-darkside-international-ministry-part-three>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with Grand Master Scott Robb: Founder, Darkside International Ministry (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-grand-master-scott-robb-founder-darkside-international-ministry-part-three.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Grand Master Scott Robb: Founder, Darkside International Ministry (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A (July 2017). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-grand-master-scott-robb-founder-darkside-international-ministry-part-three.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Grand Master Scott Robb: Founder, Darkside International Ministry (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 14.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-grand-master-scott-robb-founder-darkside-international-ministry-part-three>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Grand Master Scott Robb: Founder, Darkside International Ministry (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 14.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-grand-master-scott-robb-founder-darkside-international-ministry-part-three.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Grand Master Scott Robb: Founder, Darkside International Ministry (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 14.A (2017):July. 2017. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-grand-master-scott-robb-founder-darkside-international-ministry-part-three>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Grand Master Scott Robb: Founder, Darkside International Ministry (Part Three) [Internet]. (2017, July; 14(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-grand-master-scott-robb-founder-darkside-international-ministry-part-three.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2017-07-15

An Interview with the Society of Edmonton Atheists

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 14.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Ten)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: July 15, 2017

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,760

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

An interview with the Society of Edmonton Atheists.  They discuss: the general perspective of the irreligious by the religious; main forms of bias, bigotry, discrimination, and prejudice experienced by atheists in Edmonton; allies within the community for the nonbelieving community; premier events provided by the Edmonton Society of Atheists; main attraction for atheists in the area to come to the events of the Society of Edmonton Atheists; consistent messages from atheist thought leaders; central reasons for people to become atheists; examples of prejudice; and some of the future goals of the social group in terms of outreach, growth, and providing more for the social group, present and future. 

Keywords: atheists, Edmonton, Society of Edmonton Atheists.

An Interview with the Society of Edmonton Atheists

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been edited for clarity and readability.*

The Society of Edmonton Atheists is a community of atheists, agnostics, freethinkers, and skeptics. It is purposed for constructive activism, open discussion, and non-believing education and philanthropy. It was a Meetup group, became a non-profit in 2008, and focuses on the building of an atheist community, public awareness of atheism, and volunteer activities. I reached out to the Edmonton Society of Atheists to learn about the situation for atheists, agnostics, freethinkers, and skeptics in Edmonton, and the broader Alberta culture. The current president, Karen Lumley Kerr, agreed with the idea of an educational series on building a nonbelieving community, especially looking at the national and international communities’ ways of potentially helping grow provincial and local atheist communities. Here is the result of our conversations.

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: With the framework set for this educational series, we know about 70-80% of the Canadian population adheres to some faith or spiritual tradition. In Alberta, and especially Edmonton, the stereotype is a, not necessarily the most religious by numbers but, a hyper-religious set of congregations across the religious spectrum, especially the Christian denominations. To start, what is the general perspective of the irreligious on the part of the religious in Edmonton, in Alberta?

Society of Edmonton Atheists: Generally speaking we are welcome in the bigger cities like Edmonton and Calgary, where the demographic of nonbelievers is higher, and diversity bigger. Interfaith dialogue and discussions happen often in the bigger cities. Atheists in Alberta are more at risk of discrimination in smaller rural towns.

2. Jacobsen: What are the main forms of bias, bigotry, discrimination, and prejudice experienced by atheists in Edmonton, as reported by members of the Edmonton Society for Atheists?

Edmonton Atheists: When we attend interfaith events some people have told us that they felt compelled to avoid our group, I’ve watched people walk past and around our booths at various events before.

The worst cases are when we are trying to remove The Lord’s Prayer (which is protected here) in public schools /before council meetings etc and when members of our group fought for a public school board in Morinville a number of years ago.  Many of those families were ostracized and moved out of the town because of the attitudes of others.

3. Jacobsen: Who tend to be allies within the community for the nonbelieving community? Those able to provide support, community, conversation, and so on.

Edmonton Atheists: In the past, the Unitarian church and sometimes the United churches have shared speakers and events with us. We are going to be embarking on a secular refugee sponsorship with a United Church in the next few weeks (still waiting on government paperwork).

We also belong to the Edmonton Interfaith Center for Education and have spoken at events hosted by the Ahmadiyya Muslims.

There are secular religious people who work alongside atheists in groups such as Alberta Pro-choice or APUPIL (Albertan Parents for Unbiased Public Inclusive Learning).  These alliances are more one to one individual type of relationships rather than community groups.

4. Jacobsen: What are some of the premier events provided by the Edmonton Society of Atheists at the moment?

Edmonton Atheists: We hold a variety of events each month, from coffee nights, roundtable discussions, book club, breakfasts and pub nights, to counter-apologetics evenings.  There is usually something for everyone.  Two of our larger events coming up soon are marching in Pride Parade (June 10th) and a potluck bbq for Summer Solstice (June 17th).

We try to have big name speakers a few times a year.  We’ve hosted speakers such as Aron Ra, Richard Carrier, Justin Scheiber, and David Silverman in the past.  Through the AB Secular Conference, which we are founding sponsors of, have brought Ali Rizvi, Matt Dillahunty, Hemant Mehta, The Friendly Atheist (just to name a few), to our province.

5. Jacobsen: As the Society of Edmonton Atheists, as a local social group, what is the main attraction for atheists in the area to come to the events of the Society of Edmonton Atheists?

Edmonton Atheists: Generally we find that people have recently left their church or religious group and are looking for like-minded friends.  Others join in order to get involved in some of our secular activism.

6. Jacobsen: With bringing some of the prominent names in the atheist community including Ali Rizvi, Matt Dillahunty, Hemant Mehta, The Friendly Atheist, Aron Ra, Richard Carrier, Justin Scheiber, David Silverman, and so on, what have been the consistent messages from them, from their presentations?

Edmonton Atheists: That we have the freedom to speak up, so we shouldn’t take that for granted.  There are atheists around the world who can’t speak up without fear of repercussions, jail time or even death.

7. Jacobsen: In an interaction with the small community of atheists in Edmonton, what have been the central reasons for people to become atheists? Noting, of course, the largest single group, regarding religion, in the city of Edmonton are those without religious affiliation. 

Edmonton Atheists: Most lose their faith over a few years, very few can pinpoint exactly when they became an atheist.  The story is generally the same, asking questions that were not answered by their religious leaders and then researching on their own.   Logically the stories they were taught start to crumble, and they lose their faith little by little.

We also have some members who were raised secularly, so didn’t have to untangle from religion at all.  These types usually come to us more to be active in our outreach and activism.

8. Jacobsen: Even though those in other countries can have their fundamental belief in – ahem – non-belief have them executed, imprisoned, or considered even terrorists as in Saudi Arabia, there are more subtle forms of prejudice and discrimination against irreligious people in Edmonton, in Alberta, and in Canada. You touched on some aspects of having a booth be avoided, or controversy surrounding the Lord’s Prayer, which amounts to forms of tacit social privileges for the faithful, especially the Christian (Catholic and Protestant, mostly, in this country). What about stories or narratives from members of the social group? How does this discrimination play out in their lives? Any stark examples?

Edmonton Atheists: I think the main examples were those that the families in Mornville faced after trying to get a secular school set up there (there was only a Catholic option up until that point). I know a lot of those families had to leave the city due to being ostracized.

9. Jacobsen: Any books popular within the group? Why those texts?

Edmonton Atheists: I don’t think there are any specific books that are more popular than others. We do run a book club each month and try to rotate through various themes, different sciences, even apologetics books. We’ve also added in the odd fiction book now and again if it’s somehow related, we read A Handmaid’s Tale at the beginning of the year for example.

10. Jacobsen: What are some of the future goals of the social group in terms of outreach, growth, and providing more for the social group, present and future?

Edmonton Atheists: We are pretty busy in so much as we have an event on every week, but I’d really like to get more outreach going. Ideas that have been tossed around are speaking at churches to try to squash some of the stereotypes, holding Atheism 101 events every now and again that are open to the public, and I am also now involved with the Edmonton Interfaith group, so want to start nurturing that relationship. I’ll be speaking in September at a conference that includes non-theists, progressive Christians, and humanists, alongside Minister Gretta Vosper, so I’m very much looking forward to that: http://everwonderconference.ca/.

Appendix I: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with the Society of Edmonton Atheists [Online].July 2017; 14(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-the-society-of-edmonton-atheists.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, July 15). An Interview with the Society of Edmonton Atheists. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-the-society-of-edmonton-atheists.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with the Society of Edmonton Atheists. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A, July. 2017. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-the-society-of-edmonton-atheists>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with the Society of Edmonton Atheists.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-the-society-of-edmonton-atheists.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with the Society of Edmonton Atheists.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A (July 2017). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-the-society-of-edmonton-atheists.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with the Society of Edmonton Atheists‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 14.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-the-society-of-edmonton-atheists>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with the Society of Edmonton Atheists‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 14.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-the-society-of-edmonton-atheists.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with the Society of Edmonton Atheists.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 14.A (2017):July. 2017. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-the-society-of-edmonton-atheists>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with the Society of Edmonton Atheists [Internet]. (2017, July; 14(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-the-society-of-edmonton-atheists.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2017-07-08

An Interview with Grand Master Scott Robb: Founder, Darkside International Ministry (Part Two)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 14.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Nine)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: July 8, 2017

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,076

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

An interview with Grand Master Scott Robb. He discusses: foundational categories of Satanic worship; these rituals within the Darkside International Ministry; the significance of ritual tools; the highest date in the Satanic religion, as well as other important dates; Timothy Leary and Aleister Crowley; core principle under Satanic ethics; Charles Darwin, Mark Twain, the Marquis de Sade, George Bernard Shaw, Friedrich Nietzsche, Dr. John Dee, Aleister Crowley, Ragnar Redbeard as inspirations for Satanic thought, others, and why; hysterical reactions to Satanism; political leanings of the Darkside International Ministry; Gnostic Order of the Cathars and the Darkside International Ministry; evidence for the traditions going back to the Neolithic period (10,000 B.C.E.); the lowest and highest form of magic with examples; and the reactions of the dominant religions to Satanism.

Keywords: Darkside International Ministry, grand master, religion, Scott Robb.

An Interview with Grand Master Scott Robb: Founder, Darkside International Ministry (Part Two)[1],[2]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been edited for clarity and readability.*​

*I had more questions.*

15. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Satanic worship comprises three foundational kinds: “sexual, to fulfill a desire; compassionate, to help either another or oneself; and destructive, used to productively vent anger or hate.” What may be involved in each type of basic ritual?

Grand Master Scott Robb: In general terms, these three rituals require one thing, an emotional release. It is also for this reason that Satanic Rituals are extremely private to each individual practitioner (or Satanist). The particular emotion released would be different depending on which ritual is being performed, for example, in a Lust Rite (sexual) the practitioner must orgasm (which obviously mean some form of autoerotica involving fantasizing about whomever the individual lusts for). The Compassion Rite involves sadness, the more real the tears for the person’s condition/situation the more likely the desired effect will occur). In a Curse Rite (destructive) the practitioner expresses anger in a constructive, yet safe, manner (usually in a dramatic form of destruction).

16. Jacobsen: How would these rituals through Darkside International Ministry differ, in some basic ways, from other organizations engaged in alternate ritualism from the dominant religions/ways of life?

Robb: Satanic Rituals are very individualistic, there are specific components that will vary by the practitioner, regardless of organizational ties they may have. As long as they follow the basic rules of Satanism, like never harming children, not harming animals unless for food or in defense, not to make sexual advances unless the other individual(s) consent, and not harming others unless in defense.

17. Jacobsen: What is the significance of “black robe, an altar, the Scapegoat (symbol displayed above the altar), candles, a chalice, elixir (any drink most pleasing to the palate), a sword, and parchment (can be regular paper or animal hid)” for the ritual – piece-by-piece, please?

Robb: First off, none of these listed items are required in EVERY ritual. Many practitioners don’t have everything listed and can still perform rituals with success. For the most part, the items are used to set the mood, as I alluded to in the question about the three basic rituals, Satanic Rituals are all about expressing/venting emotions. Specifically, the Altar is used as a focal point on which the practitioner(s) focus their emotions. The black robes, chalice, Scapegoat, elixir, and candles simply add to the emotional ambiance. The candles also serve another purpose as well, in rituals that most often use all of these listed items will usually have one black candle (for Lust and Compassion desires, which are previously written on the parchment to be burned in) and one white candle (to burn the curse desires, which are also previously written on the parchment) placed on the altar, this is meant to symbolically elevate the desires into the ether (what is used as parchment is up to the practitioner and what they are able to acquire easily). The Sword is used for only two things, 1) to use as a pointer to point to the 4 cardinal compass points (North, East, South, and West), and 2) to hold the parchment in the flame of the appropriate candle on the altar.

18. Jacobsen: Even though the highest date in a Satanic religion is one’s own birth date, what years and dates, on the mainstream Gregorian calendar, have significance over others – outside of Halloween, and solstices and equinoxes?

Robb: As you said, the date of one’s own birth is the highest holiday for Satanists, the highest mass holiday celebrated by Satanists is Walpurgistnach Day, which falls on May 1st every year. Halloween (October 31st) is the next in line of importance for Satanic Holidays. After that, the Vernal Equinox in March (around the 20th or 21st) is the Satanic/Pagan New Year, the Hibernal Solstice in December (around the 20th or 21st) and Estival Solstice in June (around the 20th or 21st) and the Autumnal Equinox in September (around the 20th or 21st) mark the changes in seasons that are also of great importance to all pagan religions.

19. Jacobsen: Timothy Leary stated that he considered himself carrying on the work of Aleister Crowley. Who else seems to be carrying on the work of either Leary or Crowley – those more known and less known?

Robb: No doubt it is Timothy Leary’s view that drugs play a role in opening up the mind to altered states of perception. There are not many Satanists, save for young dabblers, who see any link to drugs and rituals. Crowley’s reputation with various drugs (Cocaine and Heroin specifically from my own research, though I have suspected Crowley likely also used LSD) is well known, and likely the reason that many outside of Satanism believe there is a required component of drug use. There really is not. Leary obviously is not much of a Satanist, even if he claims he is.

20. Jacobsen: What is the core principle undergirding Satanic ethics?

Robb: The ethics of Satanism (Stupidity, Pretentiousness, Egotism, Self-Deceit, Herd-Conformity, Lack Perspective, Forgetting Past Orthodoxies Counterproductive Pride, and Lack Of Perspective), coupled with the Satanic Laws, simply are meant to keep the individual in line, like any ethical code. I’ve always found them to speak for themselves.

21. Jacobsen: Why are “Charles Darwin, Mark Twain, the Marquis de Sade, George Bernard Shaw, Friedrich Nietzsche, Dr. John Dee, Aleister Crowley, Ragnar Redbeard” and others the inspiration for Satanic thought? Anyone living?

Robb: Each of these men contributed certain perspectives of Satanic Philosophies in their lifetimes. I cannot specifically name any living persons, those who are Satanists are due to their rights to privacy until such time as they decide to make it known publically (and most never do). Really most philosophers, realists, rationalists, even many scientists, have contributed perspectives to Satanic Philosophies, most of them are Satanists, and often non-Satanists still agree with the Satanic Philosophies without actually realizing it. It is part of the reason why it is our view that Satanists are similar to Jews in the sense that we are almost a race, we are all born with certain views that either develop into our personal beliefs later in life or are suppressed. This is why there are so many in the world who do not admit to being Satanists but still follow, or display characteristics of, Satanic philosophies or views.

22. Jacobsen: What are some of the more hysterical reactions you have witnessed, or learned about, regarding Satanism from the wider Canadian, and global, culture?

Robb: The most hysterical reactions are the insistence of many in the general public who think that Satanists worship a devil or are possessed by demons. The whole idea of such things is absurd Christianisations of things far older than Christianity. Satanism is at least 12000 years old, which makes it at least 10000 years older than Christianity, so the view that Satanism must believe in the Christian Devil is outright ridiculous

Possessions, if you look at those who actually believe in them, are always either Christian or some link to Christianity (for example Voodoo which is African folk magic merged with Catholicism, Santarianism which is Mexican folk magic merged with Catholicism, and so on). But, to my knowledge, there are not any Pagan religions that believe in possessions. The Wiccans I have talked to have no stories at all of the possessions.

The basic fact that the word “Satan” comes from the HEBREW word for Accuser or Opposer, and was used as a Jewish title for what is now known as Prosecuting Attorney. The Philosophies of Satanism and all its beliefs are very distinctly Pagan and have a lot in common with Wicca (as I have mentioned before, Wicca and Satanism share a common ancestry, much like Judaism, Christianity, and Islam also share a common ancestry).

And lastly, I think the hysteria that the very Christian extreme right-wing NAZI movement of Germany between the late 1920s through to the 1940s (and their white supremacist contemporaries) having any claim of interest in the Occult is also just as ridiculous as the claims of possessions and devils/demons actually existing.

23. Jacobsen: Satanism, in its principles and values, and so implied politics, how does this influence the political positions of the Darkside International Ministry, e.g. not being Right-wing and even being against Right-wing politics?

Robb: If we were to apply the political spectrum to politics, Satanism would be a left-leaning centrist, with the three Abrahamic Religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) to the far right, with Buddhism/Hinduism, and other Pagan religions are the right-leaning centrists. On the farther left would be Atheists, who are a little too far on the extreme end, but do have some overlap with Satanism.

I would place them on this spectrum this way because of the fact that Satanism is a very individualistic religion that believes in rights, especially of women, children, abortion, minorities, and the LGBTQ community, while the far right views are against all of these views.

24. Jacobsen: What is the Gnostic Order of the Cathars? How are they similar to the Darkside International Ministry? How are they different?

Robb: Based on what I know of the Cathars, I would have to say the similarities end with the Christian persecutions. Satanism has always been persecuted by Christians, the Cathars, as I understand it, were also persecuted throughout their existence

Satanists are not generally baptized, as the Cathars were, the Satanic Baptism ritual is more of a cleansing of previous baptisms that are performed on request by individuals who chose to leave Christianity (or other religions) that baptize children against their will. As I understand it Cathars believed they were elevated to the level of “perfect” after baptism, whereas Satanists know we are flawed but know those flaws are part of what makes us the human animal.

Satanists are also not dualistic, we view good and evil as opinions, some that are shared by others, other opinions that may not be. For example, Christians believe that one should never kill, but they still send people off to war to essentially kill others, and they constantly attempt to justify killing in certain cases, but never to the satisfaction of their own 10 Commandments that pretty clearly say DO NOT KILL. Satanists, on the other hand, know that it may be required to accept things like killing. There are situations in which someone attacks us, and in the course of defending ourselves will result in the death of our attacker, there is also the concept of war in which society has to defend itself and most definitely results in death, or even the necessary death of animals for our food so that we can survive. Therefore, things like killing can be both good and bad, depending on the context.

25. Jacobsen: What is the evidence in support of the claim that traditions run back to the Neolithic period at 10,000 B.C.E.? How are the rituals and symbolisms similar between 10,000 B.C.E. and in Satanic ritual practitioner methodologies now?

Robb: In the late 1990s, in Southern France, an Anthropologist was vacationing with his family and, while exploring a cave, found what he confirmed to be cave paintings from the Neolithic Era that depicted scenes of human bodies with the heads of dual-horned animals (bison, cows, antelope, goats, etc) that, he admitted, were not consistent with tribal hunts. I heard him in an interview on CBC radio explaining that it looked like humans involved in an animalistic ritual scene. This description is identical to what Satanic Rituals have looked like from today, from the Crowleyan period in the late 19th and early 20th century, and going back to depictions recorded of the Templar in the 12th to 14th centuries. It also is strikingly similar to older renditions of Baphomet, like the image of Pazuzu (see the inserted image below). There are also depictions and other records that seem to definitively describe Satanic imagery and practices, not to mention Satanic Philosophies going back to classical pagan societies like the Ancient Egyptians, Ancient Romans, and Ancient Greeks. When all the evidence is looked at individually the connection may not be quite as obvious as when you look at all the evidence in the bigger picture.

The image of the dual-horned animal in Satanism is still very much as prominent in Satanism today as it was going back 12000 years. From Pan to Faunus to Ammon, Hathoor, Osiris to Pazuzu to Cernunnos to Baphomet, etc. It has been one of the remaining constants, despite the name of Satanism changing several times over its 12000-year long history.

 

26. Jacobsen: From your view, what is the lowest form of magic and ritual? What is the highest form? What are examples of this? Why is this distinction important?

Robb: In short, Greater Magic is more ritualistic, as LaVey described it: Greater Magic is a form of ritual practice that is meant as a psychodrama to focus one’s emotional energy for the desired purpose (see the three basic types of rituals in your above question). While Lesser Magic is more of a manipulation of others using applied psychology.

Aleister Crowley used to mention an anecdote of his own use of Lesser Magic on one of his trips in New York. According to Crowley’s anecdote, he saw a well-dressed, wealthy man with a quite distinctive stride. According to Crowley, he went up behind the man and imitated the man’s stride, then pretended to stumble. The wealthy well-dressed man then fell without coming into contact with anyone or anything. This anecdote is probably the best example of the successful use of Lesser Magic.

27. Jacobsen: With a basic reading of the dominant world religions – Roman Catholic Christianity, Sunni Islam, Hinduism, Chinese traditional religion, Buddhism, and Eastern Orthodox Christianity – and from personal observations, how may practitioners of those religions react to Satanism, respectively?

Robb: I don’t believe any of your listed dominate world religions react to Satanism respectively. As I have said earlier, Christians (in all their denominations, including the Eastern Orthodoxies) have always persecuted Satanists and other Pagans for at least the last 700 years. Islam and Chinese Traditional religion have also looked down on more Pagan views. However, I think Buddhism, with its philosophical view of the world and everything in it, I think Buddhists are much more likely to engage in respectful discussions with Satanists. Hinduism is a bit difficult to judge, as Buddha was a Hindu Prince, and I have a very basic knowledge of their beliefs, they could be similar to Buddhism to the willingness to engage in respectful discussions, as a prominent Occultist, HP Blavatsky, did play a role in returning India’s indigenous religion (Hinduism) after the British ended their occupation.

Just a personal side note, my paternal side (father and his family) were all raised Catholic, but most of them left the Catholic Church. My maternal side (mother and her family) were raised Buddhist and for the most part still are Buddhist. Whereas I was raised an atheist and studied Satanism for about 2 years before coming out as a Satanist at the age of 17 (21 years ago as of a few months ago).

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Grand Master, High Priest, Founder, and President, Reverend Scott Robb, Darkside International Ministry.

[2] Individual Publication Date: July 8, 2017, at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-grand-master-scott-robb-founder-darkside-international-ministry-part-two; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2017, at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Grand Master Scott Robb: Founder, Darkside International Ministry (Part Two) [Online].July 2017; 14(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-grand-master-scott-robb-founder-darkside-international-ministry-part-two.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, July 1). An Interview with Grand Master Scott Robb: Founder, Darkside International Ministry (Part Two). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-grand-master-scott-robb-founder-darkside-international-ministry-part-two.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Grand Master Scott Robb: Founder, Darkside International Ministry (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A, July. 2017. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-grand-master-scott-robb-founder-darkside-international-ministry-part-two>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with Grand Master Scott Robb: Founder, Darkside International Ministry (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-grand-master-scott-robb-founder-darkside-international-ministry-part-two.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Grand Master Scott Robb: Founder, Darkside International Ministry (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A (July 2017). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-grand-master-scott-robb-founder-darkside-international-ministry-part-two.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Grand Master Scott Robb: Founder, Darkside International Ministry (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 14.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-grand-master-scott-robb-founder-darkside-international-ministry-part-two>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Grand Master Scott Robb: Founder, Darkside International Ministry (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 14.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-grand-master-scott-robb-founder-darkside-international-ministry-part-two.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Grand Master Scott Robb: Founder, Darkside International Ministry (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 14.A (2017):July. 2017. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-grand-master-scott-robb-founder-darkside-international-ministry-part-two>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Grand Master Scott Robb: Founder, Darkside International Ministry (Part Two) [Internet]. (2017, July; 14(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-grand-master-scott-robb-founder-darkside-international-ministry-part-two.

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2017-07-01

An Interview with Grand Master Scott Robb: Founder, Darkside International Ministry (Part One)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 14.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Ten)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: July 1, 2017

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,027

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

An interview with Grand Master Scott Robb. He discusses: content and purpose of Darkside International Ministries; demographics of the organization; tasks and responsibilities that come with the position of founder, grand master, high priest, reverend, and president; formalized ranking system; purpose of the priesthood, the council, and the individual priests, and the look of a wedding, baptism, funeral, and ordination through the rituals of the Darkside International Ministry; source and reason for hysteria around magic; worshiping the metaphoric representation of Satan as the “bearer of light, the spirit of the air, and the personification of enlightenment”; the self as the “highest embodiment of human life”; rational self-interest; perennial threats to the free practice of the ministry; future initiatives and areas for growth; ways to shop or donate the Darkside International Ministry, which is a registered religious charity; and final feelings and thoughts.

Keywords: Darkside International Ministry, grand master, Satan, Scott Robb, self.

An Interview with Grand Master Scott Robb: Founder, Darkside International Ministry (Part One)[1],[2]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been edited for clarity and readability.*​

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: The historical roots of the Darkside Collective Ministry are from the Hermetic Order of the Knights Templar in the 14th century in France, the Hell-Fire Club of Sir Francis Dashwood in the 18th century, and, of course, Aleister Crowley’s ritual magic of the 19th and 20th centuries, among others.

Another, more modern, individual can be seen with Anton LaVey. With this eclectic history, and noble arc of black figures and orders, what is the coda statement on the content and purpose of the Darkside International Ministry (formed late March, 1999)?

Grand Master Scott Robb: The content is no different then the philosophies and practices of our pagan ancestors. The purpose, simply, is that certain circumstances over the last 60+ years have taken away from the essence of our pagan origins. Specifically, Anton LaVey turned out to be a greedy attention seeker who only formed the Church of Satan to sell ministerial degrees and ordinations to the highest bidders with no regard to the knowledge or accomplishments one has in the philosophies and practices of Satanism.

This is the reason that Church of Satan co-founding minister, Michael Aquino, left the Church of Satan to form the Temple of Set in 1975. Knowing that, at the time, the public where not ready to accept the philosophies and rituals of Satanism, Aquino opted to keep the workings of the Temple of Set secret and only known by members and supporters. I was only made aware of these facts in private dialogue I personally had years ago with Michael Aquino.

Lucien Greaves, and his Satanic Temple, however, should be praised for their taking the core beliefs and philosophies of Satanism to a higher, social justice level. He, and his groups’ members, have shown that the youth of the world are now ready for a more prosperous future for all.

2. Jacobsen: You are based in Edmonton, Alberta. Some view this area of Canada as its ‘Bible Belt’, which tends to be a title reserved for the American South. Even though you’re spread throughout “Canada, America, Australia, Europe, Asia, South America and Africa,” why headquarter with the Central Church there – irony? More seriously, what are the demographics of the Darkside International Ministry?

Robb: Heh, well, our ministry started after a conversation I had with a friend of mine from Tel Aviv, Israel back in 1998. We decided that Satanism needed to get back to its pagan roots, and that the Church of Satan’s management since LaVey’s 1997 death was getting much worse under Peter H Gilmore and Peggy Nadimira, so we decided to create our own Ministry. Since she was about to come of age for her mandatory service with the Israeli Defence Force, It was decided that Israel probably wasn’t the best place to headquarter our ministry, both because of the religious conflict already present and her service in the IDF which would have caused her undue stress. In fact, she requested that her involvement in our ministry remain a secret, so I will not mention her name here.

Barely a year after starting these discussions, in 1998, I moved to Edmonton, and by the start of 1999 we had settled on starting our ministry and the rest is, as they say, history.

3. Jacobsen: As the founder, grand master, high priest, reverend, and president for Darkside International Ministry, what tasks and responsibilities come with the position(s)?

Robb: Well, so far, I have been overseeing the administrative requirements of the ministry; with the council I oversee the application process in accepting members and elevating existing members to higher ranks when awarded. I have also been the principal spokesperson for our ministry as well, though we have had a few others speak for our ministry as well.

4. Jacobsen: There is a formalized ranking system:

Grand Master ­ International Leader (only one in the Ministry)

Lord Templar ­ Senior Council members (along with the Grand Master, the Lord Templar make up the ruling body of the Darkside Collective Ministry)

High Templar ­ Council Members (determined regionally; Lord Templars nominate Senior Templars in their region, nominees must be approved by Grand Master)

Senior Templar ­ Highest general membership (there may be an unlimited number of members in this level)

Templar ­ Member for nine years or more (there may be an unlimited number of members in this level)

Squire ­ Member for three years or more (there may be an unlimited number of members in this level)

Initiate ­ Member for less then three years (there may be an unlimited number of members in this level)

Does this structure mirror another organizational hierarchy such as the freemasons? Also, why this structure? Why these titles?

Robb: Again, we chose a throwback structure to our pagan ancestry, the Hermetic Order of the Knights Templar, until they were nearly eradicated in 1307, were among the last above-ground pagan (and in all likelihood, Satanic) order. They performed rituals, some of which were similar to the Freemasons of today, were performed under a statue of the Baphomet (statue descriptions were recorded in Catholic records before they were destroyed, Eliphas Levi’s famous sketch of Baphomet was based on those descriptions). Satanists since the end of the 19th Century have also used the Baphomet in some orientation or other. Many unknowingly think that the Church of Satan started the use of the Sigil of Baphomet in Satanic Rituals, but the Sigil of Baphomet had been used long enough before that it was published in a French publication in 1961, and later translated into English in 1963, the book is entitled “Magic and the Supernatural” by Maurice Bessy.

I have a copy of the book myself, there are images throughout that depict the Baphomet figure, not just the Sigil of Baphomet, some are strikingly similar to the Eliphas Levi sketch, all of which relates the images to Satanism, according to the book.

The similarities with Freemasonry are simply because the origin of Freemasonry, according to their own members, is from Ancient Egypt, another well-known pagan civilization.

I wouldn’t doubt that there are many other pagan religions out there that have similar organizational hierarchy. I don’t know about the organizational structure, but Wicca is also very similar to Satanism, as well as other pagan religions, because we all have a common ancestor in Ancient Human History.

5. Jacobsen: With the priesthood, the council, and the individual priests, what is the purpose of each? What does a wedding, baptism, funeral, and ordination look like through the rituals of the Darkside International Ministry?

Robb: The Priesthood and Council serve as the core administration of the ministry that makes the final decisions on choosing members out of all the applications we receive as well as choosing which members are elevated and when. The individual priests can serve as spokespersons as the ministry whenever the need requires it. They also can sponsor or refer people to wish to join our ministry.

As for our rituals, that is something we prefer to keep secret. Intrusion of videos/photos being taken can deflect from the concentration of emotion on the focal point of our altars, which would takeaway from the effectiveness of the rituals. I can, however, assure you that animals and minors are never present in any of our rituals at any time. Everyone present during our rituals are always present by their own free will. In most cases, we suggest our members to perform rituals completely alone in a private room whenever possible in order to ensure their concentration of emotions on their altars.

In the case of Weddings, the only real difference between a Satanic Wedding and any other religions weddings is that the couple being married is urged to write their own ceremony, not just their own vows. Funeral rituals are really up to the surviving members of the family of the deceased, usually a remembrance of their life and a send-off of the remains to their final resting place. Generally speaking, Satanists believe that the dead will live on as memories in those of us who continue on living, immortality then only can occur if the person’s memory will live on forever, regardless of what it is they will be remembered for.

6. Jacobsen: I suppose ritual magic comes more naturally to people than science. It has been around longer. People have conducted rituals for far longer than science. Crowley defined magic as “the science and art of causing change to occur in conformity with will.” In general, in Canada, there can be, presently and historically, a hysteria (as with elsewhere) around magic. What seems like the source and reason for the hysteria?

Robb: The source and origin of the hysteria regarding magic is simply the lack of understanding of magic. What we call “sympathetic magic”, the most commonly used by Satanists and some Wiccans (and likely most other pagan religions) is simply using emotion to influence actions/behaviours. After my many years of studying psychology, I have found it best to describe magic as the application of basic psychology. Making science very much real magic.

The general public hears terms like “magic”, “Satanic Ritual”, etc. and seem to automatically think of the movie portrayals of these things, which are very inaccurate at best. The fact our rituals are largely secretive will obviously play up to the Christianized interpretations of what these words mean, but that’s not really our problem.

Unlike other religions, we don’t force our views, philosophies, beliefs, etc. on to others. If they wish to live in fear of things they know nothing about, that’s their choice. Most Satanists are willing to teach others about us, but only if 1) people actually want to know, and 2) they actually listen and try to comprehend the facts. There is nothing more annoying to the Satanists who are willing to teach these people then the people forcing circular arguments without any attempt to learn something.

7. Jacobsen: As worshippers of the metaphoric representation of Satan, or the Roman god Lucifer, who is the “bearer of light, the spirit of the air, and the personification of enlightenment,” what makes this metaphor the best representation of the Darkside International Ministry’s ideals? What other philosophical and ethical worldviews most parallel its own views and central metaphor?

Robb: Satan, being the Hebrew word for “Adversary, Accuser, and Opposer” and the legends of the Satan character representing the downtrodden who make themselves, in a sense, a king in their own lives, or as Milton put it in “inferno”, “it’s better to rule in Hell then to serve in Heaven”. Satan becomes the ultimate archetype for the average person to rise up and be leaders, making it the best icon for social justice causes.

Lucifer is the Latin word for “light bearer” and “enlightenment”, a beacon for enhancing knowledge, both personal and human knowledge. If anything else it is an icon for all the sciences to rally behind in understanding all things.

8. Jacobsen: With the self as the central or the “highest embodiment of human life” and as “sacred,” does this make collectivists natural enemies with the individualists of the Darkside International Ministry?

Robb: I wouldn’t say that, no. The self is not literally only one person against the world. Like in society as a whole, those closest to us, as individuals, are often taken on as part of ourselves. As such the individual being the highest embodiment of human life includes those what are an integral part in that individual life. I think anyone who is a parent can relate with the fact that your child is part of your life, such an important part, in fact, that the parent is willing to kill/die for his or her child.

The same concept is found among close friends, recall cases of a brotherhood of soldiers in a platoon, a grenade is thrown into the group and a member of the platoon instinctively sacrifices themself to save his friends, it is not a lack of one going against their sacred individuality, it is them exercising it! Furthermore, by doing so they ensure that they will be remembered forever, not just by his friends he saved, but also because of the act being recognized by military superiors and your nations government for bravery and valour.

9. Jacobsen: What differentiates the rational self-interest of the Darkside International Ministry from general selfishness or non-rational self-interest?

Robb: I think the simple answer is in the question. Our self-interest is rational.

Our self-interest, being rational, understands that there is a time and place for everything, including a concern for others. As I responded in the last question, an individual is not always literally the individual. There will always be a rational reason to consider others on occasion, but benefits to the individual will always be paramount.

One who is generally selfish, the non-rational self-interest, cannot bring themselves to do anything that does not benefit themselves alone.

10. Jacobsen: What are perennial threats to the free practices of the ministry?

Robb: General ignorance of the public is really the only threat to the free practice of our ministry. This is why we believe strongly in attempting to educate anyone who shows any interest in learning about us. Most Satanic organizations are not openly willing to do this.

11. Jacobsen: What are some future initiatives and areas for growth of the ministry?

Robb: I think we are planning to become a little more involved in social justice areas, we have been proposing partnerships with Lucien Greaves’s Satanic Temple, and we’ve also been discussing our own social justice endeavours as well.

12. Jacobsen: People can shop, even donate. Also, the Darkside International Ministry is a registered religious charity. How else can individuals become involved with the ministry?

Robb: We accept members who are knowledgeable of the philosophies and practices of our religion, the more knowledgeable and active they are the higher they will rise in our ministry. We also accept supporters of our philosophies and practices who do not want to be attached to any organizations. Suggestions of social justice causes, or even events, from supporters as well as members are considered.

13. Jacobsen: Any feelings or thoughts in conclusion based on the conversation today?

Robb: I hope more interviews like this and the discussions they will inevitably spark about Satanism and the Occult will eventually lead to an understanding not seen in centuries. Things are definitely improving since the discussions started nearly 70 years ago. But we, as a civilization, have a long way to go before we will understand each other to the point we can all peacefully co-exist as a result of our differences, instead in spite of those differences.

14. Jacobsen: Thank you for your time, Scott.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Grand Master, High Priest, Founder, and President, Reverend Scott Robb, Darkside International Ministry.

[2] Individual Publication Date: July 1, 2017 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-grand-master-scott-robb-founder-darkside-international-ministry; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2017 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Grand Master Scott Robb: Founder, Darkside International Ministry (Part One) [Online].July 2017; 14(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-grand-master-scott-robb-founder-darkside-international-ministry.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, July 1). An Interview with Grand Master Scott Robb: Founder, Darkside International Ministry (Part One). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-grand-master-scott-robb-founder-darkside-international-ministry.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Grand Master Scott Robb: Founder, Darkside International Ministry (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A, July. 2017. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-grand-master-scott-robb-founder-darkside-international-ministry>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with Grand Master Scott Robb: Founder, Darkside International Ministry (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-grand-master-scott-robb-founder-darkside-international-ministry.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Grand Master Scott Robb: Founder, Darkside International Ministry (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A (July 2017). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-grand-master-scott-robb-founder-darkside-international-ministry.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Grand Master Scott Robb: Founder, Darkside International Ministry (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 14.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-grand-master-scott-robb-founder-darkside-international-ministry>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Grand Master Scott Robb: Founder, Darkside International Ministry (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 14.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-grand-master-scott-robb-founder-darkside-international-ministry.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Grand Master Scott Robb: Founder, Darkside International Ministry (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 14.A (2017):July. 2017. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-grand-master-scott-robb-founder-darkside-international-ministry>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Grand Master Scott Robb: Founder, Darkside International Ministry (Part One) [Internet]. (2017, July; 14(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-grand-master-scott-robb-founder-darkside-international-ministry.

License and Copyright

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Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2017-06-22

An Interview with Michelle Shortt (Chapter Head) and Stuart “Stu” de Haan (Spokesperson): The Satanic Temple (Arizona Chapter)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 14.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Ten)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: June 22, 2017

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 6,153

ISSN 2369-6885

Fox 10 News

Abstract

An interview with Michelle Shortt (Chapter Head) and Stuart “Stu” de Haan (Spokesperson). They discuss: coming of age story and finding Satanism; Church of Satan and The Satanic Temple; Eastern Orthodox Church, Catholic Church, Discordianism, United Church of Canada, Gretta Vosper, Lucien Greaves, and Satanism, and media coverage; bullies playing victim; Arizona; tacit self-perceptions of acting for God; tasks and responsibilities; legal battles; similar cases for other chapters; Anton LaVey and modern Satanism; the next steps; freedom from and freedom to, and “Militant Atheism,” and Harris, Hitchens, and Dennett; final feelings and thoughts; and psychodrama.

Keywords: Arizona, Michelle Shortt, Stuart de Haan, The Satanic Temple.

An Interview with Michelle Shortt (Chapter Head) and Stuart “Stu” de Haan (Spokesperson): The Satanic Temple (Arizona Chapter)[1],[2]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been edited for clarity and readability.*​

Michelle Shortt has her AAS in Mortuary Sciences and briefly worked at a Funeral Home as a Funeral Director, Embalmer, and Cremationist. She left that field of work in 2012 and to work in the arts as an alternative model, performer, radio host, and personality where she is better known as Mischief Madness™.

Ms. Shortt has been a self identified Satanist since 2001 and made national news in January of 2016 with a fellow member of The Satanic Temple, Stu De Haan, in regards to the Phoenix City Council Meeting Invocation controversy. Michelle and Stu were announced as co-chapter heads to the Arizona Chapter for The Satanic Temple in February 2016. The invocation controversy continued with the denial from the Scottsdale City Council and their blatant discrimination against Shortt.

The mission of The Satanic Temple is to encourage benevolence and empathy among all people. In addition, we embrace practical common sense and justice. As an organized religion, we feel it is our function to actively provide outreach, to lead by example, and to participate in public affairs wheresoever the issues might benefit from rational, Satanic insights. As Satanists, we all should be guided by our consciences to undertake noble pursuits guided by our individual wills. We believe that this is the hope of all mankind and the highest aspiration of humanity.

The Satanic Temple – Arizona Chapter plans on starting various campaigns where they feel that religious liberty is jeopardized for minority groups.

For more information visit:

www.thesatanictemplearizona.com

https://www.facebook.com/SatanicTempleArizona

*This interview edited for clarity and readability.*

1. Scott Jacobsen: So to begin, let’s talk a little bit about the coming of age stories. How did you guys come to find Satanism, and was there any trend in your family around?

Michelle Shortt: I think everybody has their own coming of age story of coming to Satanism. We have this thing. It is like they are born Satanists. They always had this mentality where we value science and reasoning, and bodily autonomy. And when people discovery Satanism, it is almost like they’re coming home, “This is exactly what I’ve always been, and I didn’t know there was a name to it.”

I, personally, discovered Satanism at a very young age. I was 14. It was like an epiphany. Something dawned on me. And it was extremely influential in my younger years. If it wasn’t for the Satanic Bible, which is one of the most popular satanic pieces of literature out there written by Anton LaVey of the Church of Satan. Until this day, it is still extremely popular for most people to be introduced into Satanism.

I carried it with me throughout my adolescence and even today. Now, I have expanded my knowledge of the satanic milieu. Yea, that’s how it began for me. What about you?

Stu de Haan: I got to it through revolutionary politics in college. I had friends that were into it. I was in the metal scene. The imagery was always there. I knew people tentatively into the Satanic Bible. We consider it the start of modern Satanism. The Church of Satan had stuff that I was fully into. When the Satanic Temple came around, they had that kind of rebellious spirit, more of a romantic Satanism.

It was a kind of a push against the Establishment and arbitrary norms. Some of the Soviet anarchists identified as Satanists. You have Bakunin who is the father of anarchy. He identified for the same reason we do in The Satanic Temple. It was an outward statement of blasphemy, “I don’t agree with this. I don’t have to agree with this. This is something I am against.” If that mantle is something that you take as offensive or scary, then so be it.

That’s what I am. That was my introduction to it. As far as The Satanic Temple specifically, I saw a certain savviness to Lucien’s Law. We never asked for anything to be removed. We only want to add to it. There is a sort of different legal method which we use for things like that. It is a kind of exposure of hypocrisy. So you’ll have politicians saying, “We embrace all religions…”

2. Jacobsen: [Laughing].

de Haan: “…We pass these laws for freedom of religion.” We know every time somebody passes a freedom of religion law. Someone is about to lose their rights.

3. Jacobsen: [Laughing] Of course.

de Haan: Satanism is the embodiment of exposing that, and fighting against that.

Shortt: That’s how The Satanic Temple has gotten so popular. It is because of our activism. As a Satanist, I identified with that aspect of The Satanic Temple. Other satanic organizations, they look down upon any kind of activism. It is more like a philosophy to acknowledge your full potential in whatever outcome that is: artist. You can be a doctor, or a lawyer. To your own fullest potential, that is what Satanism is to most people.

For me, it was extremely boring to just not to have that sense of community, not have that sense of impact. It was more hidden in the shadows – your Satanism. With The Satanic Temple, with it being in the media, with it combatting arbitrary tyranny that we see with our system, that’s when a lot of Satanists decided to associate themselves with us, because there was a bigger purpose than to gloat in your mother’s basement about all of your accomplishments.

4. Jacobsen: [Laughing] With both the individualist and non-communal form, with the Church of Satan that you’re describing, and then the communal form of that, that you’re describing with The Satanic Temple, do you think each has their place within the discourse?  

de Haan: Yea, absolutely. If you ask 10 Satanists, you’ll get 10 different opinions.

5. Jacobsen: [Laughing] Or 11.

de Haan: [Laughing] Yea, exactly. That’s why we call this a milieu, where there is a historical context throughout the ages for what is called “Romantic Satanism.” It is from the 1600s. None of the people who are the founders of Romantic Satanism were actually Satanists. They are only considered in hindsight based on the literature they wrote. Then in the 1960s, which is considered year 1 of modern Satanism – says LaVey, they had individualistic Satanism, save for the romantics.

They didn’t know about each other. The information spread around.

Shortt: It was around organically forming through art and literature.

de Haan: This is a very American thing. This was the time people were officially identifying as Satanists and claiming this as their religion, the Church of Satan. There’s something that I want to make clear. It was never devil worship. It was always a non-theistic metaphor. But even in the Church of Satan, you have what are called grottos, which were the various locations people would meet.

They weren’t public. The Satanic Temple is very public. Most of us came from agnosticism or atheism, or something happened where we rejected religion pretty vehemently. This is the first time in my life and most others in The Satanic Temple, where we have that sense of community, which you have in a church setting.

6. Jacobsen: [Laughing].

de Haan: We have that now. There are people who are either outcasts or didn’t feel status quo. We were kind of giving a community to those people. We found it in ourselves as well.

Shortt: To answer your question, there is room for all. There is room for all kinds of Satanism, and all denominations of Satanism in the same way there is room for all kinds of Christianity. There will be sub-sects branching off and doing their own thing. There is nothing static or canon. Although, the Church of Satan would like to think that their stuff is the canonized Satanism. It isn’t. There are so many types of sub-sects.

de Haan: Also, there is an irony to it. In the Satanic Bible, it talks about trying to stray away from dogma intentionally. Yet, what happens is people who adhere to certain groups try to claim ownership, “No, ours is the more real one!”

7. Jacobsen: [Laughing].

de Haan: But to us, we reject that. There’s no right way to do it. There are some certain sensibilities that we have individually. For instance, I don’t believe that theistic Satanism is actually Satanism. I think it is a reversal of Christianity. You might find different opinions within our ranks on that as well. It depends on sensibilities. Like she said, there is no canon that we speak of, that we have yet. I don’t reject LaVey. Some do. Personally, I don’t.

Shortt: It is all part of the Left Hand path. It is a big umbrella for all of the different religions that put the self first and foremost. The advancement of the self.

8. Jacobsen: You see this in those that don’t put the self first too. For instance, the current Catholic Pope—I believe Discordianism likes to joke that that’s the guy who thinks he’s the only Pope—basically, he is liberalizing much of, not necessarily church doctrine but, perception in the public eye of the Catholic Church. He’s even meeting with the leader of the second largest sect of Christianity.

250-300 million, which is the Eastern Orthodox Church, they met with the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I, in Cairo of all places! There are times of meetup, I guess. But when you were talking about alternative places for people who don’t really find themselves buying majoritarian mythologies very much, two things came to mind.

One was a United Church of Canada Minister. For context, the United Church of Canada is probably considered the most liberalised Christian church in Canada. I use it as a benchmark. Whatever is controversial to them, it is what Christianity will allow in this country. Not sure about America, things are different in America. The minister’s name is Gretta Vosper.

She lost her faith while in the church. She went from the progression of theist to deist to atheist. Her congregation were fine with the minister. Recently, late 2016, she was under review for her suitability for being in the church. She was giving – for that particular group – moral lessons. Another case I was thinking about was the secular church in, what some would consider the equivalent of the Bible Belt in America, Calgary, Alberta.

So I think there are ways this stuff is cropping up more, and more. And it is heartening to hear this. Media representation is interesting. The United States has very powerful public relations, previously termed propaganda, industry. When I watch interviews with Lucien Greaves, for instance, there’s talking over him. There’s stereotypes. There’s not taking him seriously.

Any bad journalistic practice. He undergoes. Is there a bettering trend in the representation of the media of Satanism?

de Haan: No.

Shortt: No. A Fox News thing posted an article for our veterans’ memorial in Minnesota. First line: “Devil Worshippers Erecting Monument in Bell Plains.”

de Haan: It’s like they won’t even give the courtesy of a Google search, sometimes.

9. Jacobsen: [Laughing].

de Haan: If you want to see how we’re treated personally, you can Google it. A councilman in Phoenix, Arizona compared us to ISIS. Michelle and I have personally been called terrorists by public officials. We’ve been called bullies, as they tell us to go to hell.

10. Jacobsen: These would be the same person, same personality type, that would bully you in work and then would play the victim.

de Haan: What we see in Christianity a lot is if they don’t get 100% of their way 100% of the time, they play the victim.

11. Jacobsen: [Laughing] of course.

de Haan: That they’re being persecuted. Part of what we do is expose this. I think a lot of stuff people don’t realize is going on until you have someone who comes up, and who is an easy standard to call the ‘wrong religion’.

Shortt: We definitely do not see them being any fairer in their representation of us at all, to answer the question. In fact, almost anything like pizzagate. Or the satanic panic being underway with religious freedom now being the thing. It’s going to happen.

de Haan: Moral panics are on the rise. It is a bit concerning. As they are calling it in the Trump Era, the Post-Fact Era, the facts simply do not matter anymore. What makes you maddest? That’s the truth. You see the things like pizzagate. Where a pizza parlour, they say they’re going to have children sacrifices in the basement. In 2017, this is a throwback to the McMartin babysitter case, which happened in the 80s.

You’re seeing stuff like this happening. Luckily, you have debunking of this pretty quickly. People know about Snopes, and so on. Michelle and I have been the subject of conspiracy theories in Phoenix, in our own cities. There are websites slandering us personally. It is what we deal with, especially if you’re in a leadership position.

12. Jacobsen: Is Arizona any better than the general country, or is it markedly worse in some way?

de Haan: Legally, it is worse. We are considered a battleground state right now, but, from a person-to-person perspective, it is calm right now. We don’t have people protesting our events or yelling at us. We get a lot of death threats online, but that’s the internet.

13. Jacobsen: [Laughing] it’s amazing that it has come to that.

de Haan: [Laughing] yea, but legally, they don’t care. They see that it is not worth the lawsuit, so we’ll give you the 2-minute invocation. Whatever it is that we’re doing.

Shortt: They love to pander to their Christian constituents here. It makes them look good by telling the Satanists, “No, we are in our full legal right to do so.” They will do it anyway.

14. Jacobsen: There is also probably the tacit self-perception of, “I am enacting God’s will in some way. Therefore, I can act in poor taste to those that are against him.”

de Haan: It is moral grandstanding.

15. Jacobsen: Very good point.

de Haan: What is happening is if you take the moral path, anything that is not the moral path obviously is the bad guy. It is black and white. Do not have any introspection. Do not have any analysis of the actual situation. That is another part of the era that we’re in, which is the moral grandstanding. I think the internet perpetuates that.

16. Jacobsen: So when you’re running The Satanic Temple of Arizona, what tasks and responsibilities are coming along with this?

Shortt: Stu and I divide the tasks. We were the first chapter to have two co-chapter heads together. It has worked really well. We work in tandem. He does most of the legal stuff. Because of his work field, as a lawyer, he does legal representation or all of TST. I have now assumed leadership as sole chapter head. He is my spokesperson. Things still run the same. I am the one who pays attention to the details.

I assign tasks. I organize people. I run the social media. I run the website. We have an excellent team of 13, which includes 11 other council members. They each their own set of skills. We have a graphic designer. We have a web guy. We have people who are good with art. So everybody has their own job. They are all extremely motivated to do things. It is great when you have team members that you don’t have to get on their case to get stuff done.

Things are moving along very swiftly. We are always coming up with new ideas for community outreach, since we’re at a standstill with the legal stuff. Stu is working on a bunch of law suits. He’ll tell you in a minute. But I do the at-home community outreach for charities and making sure people have easy access to me, to ask questions, especially now that we’re already focused on activism so much.

People want to know more about Satanism. We want to start a book club.

de Haan: We have a lot of delegating. Michelle is good at that. We have people coming and asking, “What can we do?” Michelle is like, “Well, what can you do? What do you want to do” Some don’t want their family to know about it. They want to come to the events. The way we think about it is three things: political action, civic actions, and then there’s the parties/public rituals. We do Satan in the park, which is a BBQ for everyone to meet each other.

The cultural aspect is letting people know about the books. It is not in a vacuum. So we’re working with a couple people including Lucien Greaves to come up with recommended reading for people.

17. Jacobsen: What is going on with the law? What are the legal battles? Who are you battling with?

de Haan: The general overview, I break it down to a few categories. We have invocation campaigns. This is nationwide. A lot of people didn’t realize that before these city council meetings. They do a prayer, a Christian prayer, like 90% of them. They say it is open to everybody. It is a ‘public forum’. It is not a complete open forum. When we ask to give an invocation, it gets shut down in a number of ways.

We had two of these things happen here in Arizona. One in Phoenix, they changed the system so only chaplains could only give the invocations. That way the public couldn’t meddle with a religion that wasn’t their favourite.

18. Jacobsen: [Laughing].

de Haan: They literally told us to go to hell and put it in a newspaper.

19. Jacobsen: Oh lovely.

de Haan: Then they ran a campaign slogan that they got rid of the Satanists in the open forum that everyone is welcome in.

20. Jacobsen: [Laughing].

de Haan: The way the community has responded has been different in every city. It has never happened the same twice. There are various legal problems with that. There is case law that says you don’t have to be a theistic religion, and you can’t viewpoint discriminate as long as it isn’t profanity. Of course, our invocation is very respectful, about empathy. The horrors of empathy!

Shortt: [Laughing].

de Haan: [Laughing] they shut us down so viciously over that speech on empathy – and things like that. The second category is reproductive rights. In Missouri, that’s the battleground for that. There was only one abortion clinic in the state. In order to get an abortion, you had to get a 72-hour waiting period.

21. Jacobsen: Holy smokes.

de Haan: We had a waiver saying, “I am not going to have a 3-day waiting period to read Christian literature against our religion.” Now, there is a federal lawsuit pending, which has been pending for a while on that one – before we got involved, really. That’s one big issue right now. A third category is the After School Satan Club. There’s something called the Good News Club. It is a very Right-wing Christianity. It is not mainstream Christianity.

It is fire and brimstone old school Christianity. It is about day cares in public schools. We have no problem with private entities. But when it is the public and the taxpayers involved, and you’ve got public schoolchildren, they are being told that they are going to hell if they get an abortion. We find these things damaging. So we are going to have a secular after school club called After School Satan. Ironically, the only chapter able to push that through was Salt Lake City, Utah – Mormon territory.

22. Jacobsen: [Laughing].

de Haan: We have some theories around that. Them being a minority religion themselves within the aspect of Christianity. So we are working on that, to see what legal ramifications – if they are only letting Christians have an after school program. The fourth category is our monument campaigns. That’s the one that is very tangible. It is one people notice first because we have an 8-foot tall statue of Baphomet made out of bronze.

Whenever they try to erect these 10 Commandment statues in front of government buildings, we petition to put ours up, then all hell breaks loose.

23. Jacobsen: [Laughing] do you put it facing it?

Shortt: [Laughing].

de Haan: We have a public grounds committee that we go through. Actually, there was some movement on that. In Arkansas, they decided to go through with it without giving us legislative approval. We are looking at that lawsuit as well. I would say those are our four main legal aspects going on throughout the country.

24. Jacobsen: Is it similar for other branches, other chapters?

de Haan: Well, we only have one statue. We don’t have all the resources in the world. The Oklahoma one was taken down when Scott Pruitt was the attorney general there. Lucien Greaves has a great statement as to what an incompetent asshole that guy is. But jokes on us because he got elected to head of the EPA.

Shortt: [Laughing].

25. Jacobsen: Soon to be non-existent based on the one-line bill.

de Haan: The whole point is that the more incompetent they are then the higher in government that they go right now.

26. Jacobsen: Yea.

de Haan: Do you want to talk about our civic stuff?

Shortt: It is our community outreach campaigns. We have a charity run called Menstruatin’ with Satan. It was a charity brought up in Boston chapter. All chapters have to write a proposal for any kind of idea that they want to implement in their chapter They wrote the proposal, which got approved and did very well once they got it running in Boston. So it was basically an idea that was up for grabs for other chapters to piggyback on and do in their own communities, just to get people active.

We can’t be suing everybody all of the time. We are running out of resources to do that. There are other things that we want to make our presence known within the community, to show that we are Satanists and to show that we are still trying to do good for everybody. It establishes us more as a religious presence. So we have Menstruatin’ with Satan. We collect pads, tampons, and menstrual cups. Anything that helps people who have menstrual periods.

We like to include our transgender friends as well. That’s one of our tenets: “One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone.” Menstruation is definitely something that get swept under the rug, as something that is icky. Nobody wants to talk about it. Nobody wants to think about it, especially when there’s homeless people. What do you they do when they have their menstrual cycle and can’t do anything about it?

This is a way to help the disadvantaged. Also, we plan to adopt a highway fairly soon. Our friends in Colorado. They went to do the first adopt-a-highway. We will probably piggyback on that idea as well.

27. Jacobsen: You noted in the earliest parts of the interview about Anton LaVey, as per his description of it, that, basically, modern Satanism began in about 1960. Then Margaret Sanger, with the pill, came in 1960, on the nose. I note trends, where there are converging movements. You’re describing with Menstruatin’ with Satan, as well as Margaret Sanger and reproductive health rights – equitable and safe access to reproductive health technologies for women.

I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the same people that would be demonising – pardon the pun – Satanism in general are also the ones making direct, and indirect, attacks on women’s access, as you’re noting only one abortion clinic and having to wait 72 hours and having to read Christian literature about it—

de Haan: It is a shaming aspect. The mainstream religion here is very moralistic. They want to make it as shameful and painful as possible. We see it as sadistic. It is not pious. It is based on bad science, which is one of our tenets. That we adhere to the best scientific knowledge of our time. Of course, that evolves. If it changes, we adapt with it. We think that harming women because they made a decision to engage in an activity that they might not condone – premarital sex and what have you – and make the decision that this isn’t a life I can provide for.

They want to shame them. They want to punish them. That is very against what Satanism is about. We want to help people. We do not want to judge people for ‘sinful’ behaviour – so to speak. I don’t think it’s coincidental either. It was 1966-69 when LaVey started this. It was right in the heat of the Civil Rights Movement. I don’t think any of this stuff is coincidental. I think this whole rise of theocracy, which is a whole other conversation. That has been traced back to Dwight Eisenhower and Reagan using that as his base.

Next thing you know, there is this blurring of the separation of church and state. You see it withering a crumbling, then you see Christians telling what the government can do. Gays can’t get married, then they can. Then there’s freaking out about that. I think the movements arise out of that.

28. Jacobsen: So what’s the next step? How do not only move the conversation forward in the public mind as you’re doing outreach – in other words, changing the conversation and enacting that change, but also specific initiatives other than general outreach that you’re likely to be engaged in the near and hopefully the far future as well?

Shortt: Like Stu was saying, we are going to be trying to develop the cultural aspect of our religion. The beauty of TST is reach chapter is fairly autonomous. We have our directives from the national council about how to proceed with certain actions like protests. It is more like developing that cultural aspect that we so dearly lack, especially since we have a lot of newcomers that have no clue where Satanism came from.

They want to know more, but don’t know where to go. We will develop the book list and try to get more people involved in the history of Satanism rather than just focusing on having protests against the next fad. So we definitely want to have a lasting impact that people can associate with the religion.

de Haan: One thing to too is people who think we’re trolls, so to speak. That we’re trying to troll the Right. There is so much more to it than that. That is something that we want to emphasize. The Christians hate us. The atheists hate us because they think we’re phonies.  So we get it from both sides. We also want to make clear. We don’t fight for the sake of fighting. We don’t battle things just because we can. There is a whole reason for doing what we’re doing.

It is more that aspect. That we’re trying to show to people. We don’t recruit. We don’t care about proselytizing. If this is for you, then you’re welcome. If not, then we don’t care.

Shortt: [Laughing].

de Haan: We don’t have to justify ourselves.

29. Jacobsen: It is very American too. It is freedom from and to, rather than just freedom to, but I am free to proselytize [Laughing]. It is also lopsided. You’re saying you are getting it from both sides. I guess the term “Militant Atheism” came into play when Dawkins gave the Ted talk on that. I believe that got a snicker, snicker, from the crowd. That started following his text with Harris, Hitchens, and Dennett.

Now, Hitchens is deceased. The religious Right, they are active. They are wealthy. They have a lot of power and influence, as opposed to the ‘atheist lobby’ in the United States. It seems increasingly active, but less wealthy and less influential.

Shortt: We do get it from all sides. The atheists, they – because they do not have a “sincerely held religious belief” that they can cite for not being able to have the same freedoms that those who do have religious belief can cite – see us, as Satanists, as having that which they lack, which is a religion. A sincerely held religious belief that we can put on the table and ask for equal representation.

We get it from atheist trolls using Satanism. We get it from other Satanists that don’t like The Satanic Temple, usually LaVeyans. That we’re putting Satanism in the public forum, where it doesn’t belong. Regardless of what any of them say, we have been the most successful for any organization fighting for religious equality within the government here. They are going to allow us the Satanists, and cause public outrage, or they are going to allow public practice, which probably didn’t belong there in the first place.

30. Jacobsen: Any thoughts or feelings in conclusion about what we’ve talked about today?

Shortt: We are growing at an exponential rate. It is quite awesome how many people come to us from everywhere. I try to keep our social media very active. We make ourselves very available to the public. I think the public sees that. I think ours is one of the more successful chapters. I don’t mean to toot our own horn.

de Haan: [Laughing].

31. Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Shortt: [Laughing] we are attracting people from all walks of life. There are those that come to us for the activism. There are those that come for the Satanism because they are outcasts and have nowhere else to go. We accept them regardless, whether you’re a Satanist or not. If you want to hang with our group, then that’s cool. You don’t have to be a Satanist. That’s not what we’re trying to do.

de Haan: We have another ritual coming up in November. We’ll do it at the quarry. We go down to this bar in Bisby. The owner is friendly with our cause. We do a satanic cleansing. We did one last November, where we dawned out own crowns of thorns. In Utah, they have the baptism ceremonies. They set you on fire to get rid of your own unconsensually given faith. It is all symbolic. There is nothing magic about it.

They are supposed to be meaningful to the individual. I really enjoy that aspect of it. The “psychodrama” is what we call it.

32. Jacobsen: The idea of the psychodrama reminds of – I forget who said it because it has been several months – someone stated that they were against the term ex-Muslim because it is as if you’re playing on the terms of that theology. If you identify as an ex-Muslim, then you, in a way, play into the hands of those who would call you an apostate. So they were more for not using the term at all.

I think it is a similar theme of those who are non-consensually co-opted into a faith.

Shortt: It gives a foreground of what to expect, what kind of guilt that person probably holds upon their shoulders.

33. Jacobsen: Right.

Shortt: Because as someone who is part of an ex-faith, they might have different quirks than someone who was ex- of another faith. I see your point. I find that incredibly interesting. Why not call yourself atheist rather than ex-whatever?

34. Jacobsen: Or, “Do you believe in X?” “No.”

de Haan: Religion is less to do with faith and more to do with identity. That’s what people are coming up with now. This is part of who you are, literally since you were born. I think people have a hard time detaching themselves from that, justifiably. But to us, finding this, it was an extreme liberation, “I found one that I chose.” It gives a deep sense of meaning.

Or sometimes, especially in the atheist community, there wasn’t one in the social aspect and a code of conduct to live by. If you’re an atheist, you don’t have that to live by, and to me it is very dry.

35. Jacobsen: Thank you for your time, guys.

Shortt: Thank you.

References

Apologia Team. (2017, March 10). AR #202 – Satanism and Global Warming. Retrieved from http://apologiaradio.com/tag/satanic-temple-arizona/.

Associated Press. (2016, May 24). Arizona city bars Satanic Temple prayer at council meeting. Retrieved from https://apnews.com/9696b18db7984ba38920bf21ccb15770/arizona-city-bars-satanic-temple-prayer-council-meeting.

Chan, M. (2016, January 31). Phoenix Lawmakers Battle Satanic Temple Over Ceremonial Prayer. Retrieved from http://time.com/4201631/phoenix-city-council-satanic-temple/.

Church of Satan. (2017). Church of Satan. Retrieved from http://www.churchofsatan.com/.

Fenwick, J. (2016, January 31). Tucson members of Satanic Temple to speak before Phoenix City Council meeting. Retrieved from http://www.kvoa.com/story/31103796/satanic-temple-pushes-for-invocation.

Graham, R.F. (2015, July 27). Satanic Temple’s plans for ‘largest public satanic ceremony in history’ backfire after Detroit protesters force them to unveil huge goat-headed Devil statue in private. Retrieved from http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3175531/Satanic-Temple-unveils-goat-headed-bronze-monument-secret-venue-Detroit-despite-threats-protests-against-it.html#ixzz4klmGaQTQ.
Holly, P. (2016, February 5). How the Satanic Temple forced Phoenix lawmakers to ban public prayer. Retrieved from https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2016/02/05/how-the-satanic-temple-forced-phoenix-lawmakers-to-ban-public-prayer/?utm_term=.0481e756476e.

Leavitt, P. (2016, May 23). Scottsdale won’t allow Satanic Temple prayer at council meeting. Retrieved from http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/scottsdale/2016/05/23/scottsdale-wont-allow-satanic-temple-prayer-council-meeting/84818920/.

Markus, B.P. (2016, January 30). Satanic Temple activists school AZ Christians on civics as city moves to block Satanic prayer. Retrieved from http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/satanic-temple-activists-school-az-christians-on-civics-as-city-moves-to-block-satanic-prayer/.

Russia Today. (2016, February 16). Satanic Temple rejected by Phoenix gets OK from Scottsdale. Retrieved from

https://www.rt.com/usa/332670-satanic-temple-prayer-arizona/.

The Associated Press. (2016, May 23). Arizona city bars Satanic Temple from leading prayer at city council meeting. Retrieved from http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/arizona-city-bars-satanic-temple-from-leading-prayer-at-city-council-meeting-1.2913975.

The Satanic Temple. (2017). The Satanic Temple. Retrieved from https://thesatanictemple.com/.

The Satanic Temple of Arizona. (2017). The Satanic Temple of Arizona. Retrieved from https://thesatanictemplearizona.com/.

Wasser, M. (2016, January 29). Phoenix City Councilman’s Fury Over Satanic Temple Prompts Social Media Civics Lesson. Retrieved from http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/phoenix-city-councilman-s-fury-over-satanic-temple-prompts-social-media-civics-lesson-8012091.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Michelle Shortt, Chapter Head, and Stuart “Stu” de Haan, Spokesperson, The Satanic Temple (Arizona Chapter).

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 22, 2017 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-michelle-shortt-chapter-head-and-stuart-stu-de-haan-spokesperson-the-satanic-temple-arizona-chapter; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2017 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Michelle Shortt (Chapter Head) and Stuart “Stu” de Haan (Spokesperson): The Satanic Temple (Arizona Chapter) [Online].June 2017; 14(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-michelle-shortt-chapter-head-and-stuart-stu-de-haan-spokesperson-the-satanic-temple-arizona-chapter.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, June 22). An Interview with Michelle Shortt (Chapter Head) and Stuart “Stu” de Haan (Spokesperson): The Satanic Temple (Arizona Chapter). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-michelle-shortt-chapter-head-and-stuart-stu-de-haan-spokesperson-the-satanic-temple-arizona-chapter.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Michelle Shortt (Chapter Head) and Stuart “Stu” de Haan (Spokesperson): The Satanic Temple (Arizona Chapter). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A, June. 2017. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-michelle-shortt-chapter-head-and-stuart-stu-de-haan-spokesperson-the-satanic-temple-arizona-chapter>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with Michelle Shortt (Chapter Head) and Stuart “Stu” de Haan (Spokesperson): The Satanic Temple (Arizona Chapter).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-michelle-shortt-chapter-head-and-stuart-stu-de-haan-spokesperson-the-satanic-temple-arizona-chapter.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Michelle Shortt (Chapter Head) and Stuart “Stu” de Haan (Spokesperson): The Satanic Temple (Arizona Chapter).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A (June 2017). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-michelle-shortt-chapter-head-and-stuart-stu-de-haan-spokesperson-the-satanic-temple-arizona-chapter.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Michelle Shortt (Chapter Head) and Stuart “Stu” de Haan (Spokesperson): The Satanic Temple (Arizona Chapter)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 14.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-michelle-shortt-chapter-head-and-stuart-stu-de-haan-spokesperson-the-satanic-temple-arizona-chapter>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Michelle Shortt (Chapter Head) and Stuart “Stu” de Haan (Spokesperson): The Satanic Temple (Arizona Chapter)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 14.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-michelle-shortt-chapter-head-and-stuart-stu-de-haan-spokesperson-the-satanic-temple-arizona-chapter.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Michelle Shortt (Chapter Head) and Stuart “Stu” de Haan (Spokesperson): The Satanic Temple (Arizona Chapter).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 14.A (2017):June. 2017. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-michelle-shortt-chapter-head-and-stuart-stu-de-haan-spokesperson-the-satanic-temple-arizona-chapter>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Michelle Shortt (Chapter Head) and Stuart “Stu” de Haan (Spokesperson): The Satanic Temple (Arizona Chapter) [Internet]. (2017, June; 14(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-michelle-shortt-chapter-head-and-stuart-stu-de-haan-spokesperson-the-satanic-temple-arizona-chapter.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2017-06-15

An Interview with Sebastian Simpson: The Satanic Temple of West Florida

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 14.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Ten)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: June 15, 2017

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,298

ISSN 2369-6885

17407922_10210447101287119_1861293518_o

18195108_761506804030884_6935541437581335303_n

Sebastian Simpson on far left.

Abstract

An interview with An Interview with Sebastian Simpson. He discusses: family background in Satanism; best argument for Satanism; tasks and responsibilities in The Satanic Temple of West Florida; After School Satan; Aleister Crowley, Timothy Leary, Anton LaVey, and others, and core values; the seven core tenets for protection from theocracy; perennial threats to Satanists in West Florida and America; protections from those threats; coming together to protect Satanists from bad law, from bullying of some religious individuals or communities, from mainstream and dominant religious encroachment and imposition, and so on; becoming involved and donating to The Satanic Temple of West Florida; and final feelings and thoughts.

Keywords: Sebastian Simpson, The Satanic Temple, West Florida.

An Interview with Sebastian Simpson: The Satanic Temple of West Florida[1],[2]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been edited for clarity and readability.*​

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Was there a family background in Satanism? What were some pivotal moments for becoming one, for you?

Sebastian Simpson: I have no family background in Satanism. My interest in Satanism goes back to the so-called “Satanic Panic” of the 1980’s and 1990’s. I was just a kid back then, but I distinctly recall seeing, for example, Geraldo Rivera’s endeavouring to “expose devil-worship.” The fear in my community was palpable. Initially I, too, was afraid that there was this invisible evil lurking in the music I was listening to and the literature I was reading (admittedly the perceived danger was also part of the appeal); however, that initial fear ebbed and transformed into genuine curiosity about Satanism and an affinity for this benign aesthetic that nevertheless had incredible rhetorical power. The realization that the Satanic conspiracy stories I was seeing in the news were nonsense also ignited a rebellious flame in my young mind, for I could see the baselessness and injustice of the witch hunts. At that point, however, my affinity for Satanism was purely aesthetic. Mostly due to the limited availability of Satanic literature such as The Satanic Bible to a youngster growing up in the American Midwest prior to the internet, it wouldn’t be until later, in my mid to late teens, that I recognized the intellectual aspects of Satanism.

2. Jacobsen: What seems like the best argument for Satanism to you? Now, what makes this philosophical and ethical worldview self-evident to you?

Simpson: Speaking only for myself, one aspect of modern Satanism that I found to be compelling, at least as I encountered it, is that it does not share with many other mainstream religions this idea of conversion. You’d be hard-pressed to find individuals who identify with mainstream Satanic organizations who also have an interest in convincing others to adopt Satanism per se. Certainly this is true with The Satanic Temple. A necessary component of what it is to be a Satanist is to identify as such. Satanism’s emphasis on individuality is patently at odds with the idea of convincing someone to identify in a certain way; I would never deign to convince someone to adopt an identity. That said, the ethic underlying the Seven Tenets of The Satanic Temple certainly isn’t self-evident and ought to be rationally defensible.

3. Jacobsen: What tasks and responsibilities come with work in The Satanic Temple of West Florida?

Simpson: I maintain an open line of communication with the National organization. Managing our social media presence, including responding to every message we receive via Facebook and our website it a huge commitment. Along with others in the Chapter, I coordinate social events such as Chapter picnics, public meetings so that interested individuals in the community can meet with us and see what we’re about, and campaigns such as our recent “Socks for Satan” campaign through which we collected over 500 pairs of new socks for Pensacola’s homeless population.

4. Jacobsen: One of the more delightful provisions for kids, or adolescents, is the After School Satan program, which broadens the landscape of programs for kids or adolescents. It seems needed now. How can parents, or students, contact The Satanic Temple of West Florida and set one up?

Simpson: The Satanic Temple is currently working towards establishing a volunteer based program for non-TST affiliates in time for the next operating school year. For more information, please email info@thesatanictemple.com with the subject line “After School Satan Clubs Inquiry.”

5. Jacobsen: Some of the more common names in the Satanist community might be Aleister Crowley, Timothy Leary, Anton LaVey, and others. LaVey wrote The Satanic Bible in 1969. It is a growing and changing Temple. Its core values are “compassion, justice, reason, free will, personal sovereignty, and science.” How do these values play out in the life of a Satanist and their worship? How do these differ from traditional religious institutions or worship structures? Why these principles above others?

Simpson: First I should mention that while LaVey’s contributions are certainly part of our intellectual heritage, we have no official affiliation with The Church of Satan. We are a distinct organization. Indeed, our core principles and their emphasis on compassion, science, and reason are in tension with The Church of Satan’s emphasis on selfishness/egoism, social Darwinism, and supernaturalism in so far as it plays a role in ritual magic. To the substance of your question: worship has no role to play in The Satanic Temple. Being a nontheistic organization, we worship no supernatural entities. The way the values you mention play out in the life of a Satanist are exactly as one would expect and would be as varied as the individuals who embrace those values. For example, there are many ways to be compassionate. As champions of reason, we seek to expose the rotten core and deleterious effects of superstition and baseless conspiracy theories. This is evident in the work of TST’s Grey Faction, part of whose mission is to expose therapists and psychiatrists who, in their professional practice, propagate the myth of organized, institutional Satanic ritual abuse and employ such discredited and pseudoscientific techniques as facilitated communication and recovered memory therapy to “discover” repressed memories of Satanic ritual abuse. See greyfaction.org for more information.

6. Jacobsen: The Temple has seven core tenets:

  1. One should strive to act with compassion and empathy towards all creatures in accordance with reason.
  2. The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions.
  3. One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone.
  4. The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo your own.
  5. Beliefs should conform to our best scientific understanding of the world. We should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit our beliefs.
  6. People are fallible. If we make a mistake, we should do our best to rectify it and resolve any harm that may have been caused.
  7. Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word.

Why these tenets? How can these protect society from theocracy, and continue the separation of church and state as well as respect the individual in a nation?

Simpson: Theocracy is inimical to reason. By their nature, theocracies shut down free inquiry and privilege dogma over rational inquiry. So long as beliefs conform to reason and are informed by our best science, there will be a formidable opponent to theocracy. Indeed, our very Constitution has protections against theocracy in the First Amendment, which prohibits the establishment of a state religion and ensures the free exercise of religion. We have been vocal proponents of the right to free and legal exercise of religion. This right accords to Satanists as well.

7. Jacobsen: What are some perennial threats to Satanists in West Florida and America?

Simpson: It is obvious that a large contingent of Christians in Pensacola/West Florida would like to silence us. This is evident from the fiasco that ensued when we were granted the opportunity and privilege to deliver a Satanic invocation at a meeting of the Pensacola City Council. Christians showed up in droves to protest and spoke over David Suhor as he delivered his invocation. A week before this event, the City Council held an “emergency meeting” to consider the possibility of instituting a moment of silence in lieu of an invocation; we would have been happy with that result since we believe that government should stay out of the religion business. However, despite the fears of Pensacolans that we would be bringing a curse to the city, the public as well as several council members, made it clear that an inclusive moment of silence was not acceptable. Consequently, we delivered our invocation the following week amid an angry horde. In West Florida, and Pensacola in particular, we are engaged in a constant struggle to keep the municipal bodies in line with the law by not discriminating against religious minorities or pandering to the religious majority by granting them special privileges. Several local government bodies hold prayers and discriminate against religious minorities by ignoring their requests to deliver invocations, ourselves included.

8. Jacobsen: What are some protections from those threats?

Simpson: The best protection against the steady efforts to impose religion into the public sphere is for secularists and religious minorities of all sorts to take a stand and resist complacency. Be visible and vocal. Elected officials do not represent only the religious majority.

9. Jacobsen: How can the Satanist and associated communities come together and protect their beliefs from bad law, from bullying of some religious individuals or communities, from mainstream and dominant religious encroachment and imposition, and so on?

Simpson: Speaking from personal experience, I reach out to other secular groups and foster good relations. Satanism isn’t for everyone, but that doesn’t mean that we can’t unite for shared causes. Be in touch with organizations known to legally represent the interests of religious minorities such as the American Civil Liberties Union or the Freedom From Religion Foundation. Document cases of religious discrimination and report them. In secular societies there are laws that exist precisely to protect minorities from the tyranny of the majority; we must insist that these laws be enforced and upheld. Be aware also of bills intended to expand the reach of religious organization; we see a lot of this in the US, especially Florida very recently. This requires that one be aware of bills that may be coming before legislative bodies. Productive and peaceful civic engagement and building healthy communities—that is my advice.

10. Jacobsen: To become acquainted or involved with The Satanic Temple of West Florida, you have website, linked before, and a Facebook page. How can people support, even donate to, The Satanic Temple of West Florida?

Simpson: W do run campaigns and individuals can visit our Facebook to discover ways to contribute. For example, we set up a gift registry online for our Socks for Satan campaign. Apart from that, sharing the information we disseminate via social media is a great help in getting the message our concerning TST campaigns such as our Religious Reproductive Rights campaign and our monument campaigns in Arkansas and Minnesota.

11. Jacobsen: Any thoughts or feelings in conclusion?

Simpson: Thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak with you. Ave Satanas.

12. Jacobsen: Thank you for your time, Sebastian.

References

Anderson, J. (2016, July 14). VIDEO | Satanic prayer disrupted at council meeting. Retrieved from

http://weartv.com/news/local/satanic-prayer-at-council-meeting-disrupted-by-crowd.

Barnett, C. (2016, July 6). WILL FLORIDA CITY COUNCIL ALLOW SATANIC INVOCATION?. Retrieved from http://www.worldreligionnews.com/issues/will-florida-city-council-allow-satanic-invocation.

Blake, A. (2016, July 15). Satanic prayer opens Pensacola city council meeting; police forced to remove protesters. Retrieved from http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jul/15/satanic-prayer-opens-pensacola-city-council-meetin/.

Bowerman, M. (2016, August 1). ‘Educatin’ with Satan’: Satanic Temple pushing after school clubs. Retrieved from https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2016/08/01/education-after-school-with-satan-santanic-temple-elementary-school-good-news-christian-clubs/87904884/.

Bugbee, S. (2013, July 30). Unmasking Lucien Greaves, the Leader of the Satanic Temple. Retrieved from https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/4w7adn/unmasking-lucien-greaves-aka-doug-mesner-leader-of-the-satanic-temple.

Dunwoody, D. (2016, July 14). City Council Invocation Sparks Anger, Preaching. Retrieved from http://wuwf.org/post/city-council-invocation-sparks-anger-preaching.

Gibson, D. (2016, July 1). Florida city council may halt opening prayers to stop Satanist’s invocation. Retrieved from http://religionnews.com/2016/07/01/florida-city-council-may-halt-opening-prayers-to-stop-satanists-invocation/.

Holly, P. (2016, July 20). Why a Satanic Temple member wants to perform rituals before a city council in the Bible Belt. Retrieved from https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2016/07/20/why-a-satanic-temple-member-wants-to-perform-rituals-before-a-city-council-in-the-bible-belt/?utm_term=.3e75771a4c7d.

Kuruvilla, C. (2014, December 10). Satanic Temple Wins Battle To Bring Lucifer Display Inside Florida State Capitol. Retrieved from http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/satanic-temple-florida-capitol_n_6277082.

Minogue, H. (2016, July 7). The Satanic Temple Of West Florida Will Deliver Invocation. Retrieved from http://wkrg.com/2016/07/07/the-satanic-temple-of-west-florida-will-deliver-invocation/.

Moon, T. (2017, March 19). Pensacola Satanists aren’t all pitchforks and red tails. Retrieved from http://www.pnj.com/story/news/2017/03/19/pensacola-satanists-atheists-secularism/99300312/.

Mortimer, C. (2017, March 20). Satanist church holds drive to collect socks for the homeless. Retrieved from http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/satanist-church-pensacola-west-florida-holds-drive-socks-homeless-collect-charity-pagan-a7639881.html.

Naftule, A. (2017, May 3). The Satanic Temple on Menstruatin’ With Satan And Messin’ With Texas. Retrieved from https://phxsux.com/2017/05/03/the-satanic-temple-on-menstruatin-with-satan-and-messin-with-texas/.

News Service of Florida. (2014, December 4). Satanic Temple approved for display in Florida’s Capitol. Retrieved from http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/stateroundup/satanic-temple-approved-for-display-in-floridas-capitol/2208943.

(2016, July 20). A Satanic Temple Member Gave the Prayer Before a City Council Meeting in Florida. Retrieved from https://relevantmagazine.com/slices/satanic-temple-member-gave-prayer-city-council-meeting-florida. Sullivan, E. (2013, July 22). Happytown: Satanic Temple to rally in Florida. Retrieved from http://www.orlandoweekly.com/orlando/happytown-satanic-temple-to-rally-in-florida/Content?oid=2245633.

The Satanic Temple. (2017). The Satanic Temple. Retrieved from https://thesatanictemple.com/.

The Satanic Temple of West Florida. (2017). The Satanic Temple of West Florida. Retrieved from http://thesatanictemplewestflorida.com/.

 

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Professor, Psychological and Brain Sciences, University of California, Santa Barbara; Director, The Center for Mindfulness and Human Potential.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 15, 2017 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-sebastian-simpson-the-satanic-temple-of-west-florida; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2017 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Sebastian Simpson: The Satanic Temple of West Florida [Online].June 2017; 14(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-sebastian-simpson-the-satanic-temple-of-west-florida.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, June 22). An Interview with Sebastian Simpson: The Satanic Temple of West Florida. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-sebastian-simpson-the-satanic-temple-of-west-florida.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Sebastian Simpson: The Satanic Temple of West Florida. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A, June. 2017. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-sebastian-simpson-the-satanic-temple-of-west-florida>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with Sebastian Simpson: The Satanic Temple of West Florida.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-sebastian-simpson-the-satanic-temple-of-west-florida.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Sebastian Simpson: The Satanic Temple of West Florida.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A (June 2017). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-sebastian-simpson-the-satanic-temple-of-west-florida.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Sebastian Simpson: The Satanic Temple of West Florida‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 14.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-sebastian-simpson-the-satanic-temple-of-west-florida>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Sebastian Simpson: The Satanic Temple of West Florida‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 14.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-sebastian-simpson-the-satanic-temple-of-west-florida.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Sebastian Simpson: The Satanic Temple of West Florida.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 14.A (2017):June. 2017. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-sebastian-simpson-the-satanic-temple-of-west-florida>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Sebastian Simpson: The Satanic Temple of West Florida [Internet]. (2017, June; 14(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-sebastian-simpson-the-satanic-temple-of-west-florida.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

1 Comment
2017-06-08

An Interview with Minister Amanda Poppei

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 14.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Nine)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: June 8, 2017

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,618

ISSN 2369-6885

amanda headshot

Abstract

An interview with Minister Amanda Poppei. She discusses: family background; professional and theological qualifications; pivotal moments and the ‘calling’; best argument for ethical culture; main reasons for people becoming involved in ethical culture and the Unitarian Universalist community; tasks and responsibilities; demographics of the Washington Ethical Society; pastoral care; differences with traditional definitions; awards and The Tip of the Iceberg; fulfillment from recognition; extra responsibility with the recognition; importance of connecting youths; main threat to ethical culture; common problems in the community and perennial threats; and becoming involved or donating to the American Ethical Union or the Washington Ethical Society.

Keywords: Amanda Poppei, ethical society, minister, Unitarian Universalist.

An Interview with Minister Amanda Poppei: Senior Leader & Unitarian Universalist Minister, Washington Ethical Society (Ethical Culture and Unitarian Universalist)

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been edited for clarity and readability.*​

 

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Let’s delve into your own family background. What is it – geography, culture, language, and religious/irreligious beliefs, principles and values?

Minister Amanda Poppei: I was raised in upstate New York, in a white family grounded in academia–my mother was a college professor, and my father had been studying for his PhD in Biology before leaving to make furniture. He worked out of a barn in our backyard, crafting beautiful pieces–really an artist. In my earliest years I didn’t attend any congregation, but in 4th grade I went on a sleepover to a friend’s house and attended church with her the next day. I came home and promptly announced that I wanted to go to that church! My mother was a little worried–we were a humanist family–but quickly relieved to discover it was Unitarian Universalist congregation. She had actually been raised UU, just hadn’t gotten around to taking me to Sunday School. I attended religiously (ha!) through middle and high school, participating in their Coming of Age program in 8th grade. It was during that year that I first articulated a desire to become clergy myself one day.

My family raised me with a strong sense of social justice; my mother in particular followed in her own mother’s footsteps, building her life around making the world a better place. I knew I was raised with a lot of privilege (white, formally educated) and that part of the rent I needed to pay in the world was making sure that others had similar opportunities. My mother took me to Washington, DC for my first national march when I was in 3rd grade, supporting the Equal Rights Amendment. For his part, my father instilled a curiosity about how the world works, from the planets to the atoms, and a love of the outdoors. Both my parents raised me to challenge racism, misogyny, and homophobia. I feel incredibly lucky to have been raised with those values and to have the opportunity now to live them out in my work and home life.

2. Jacobsen: You have many qualifications. Some selected ones include senior leader of the Washington Ethical Society since 2008 connected to formal qualifications including a Masters of divinity from Wesley Theological Seminary in Washington, District of Columbia and a bachelor of arts in religious studies from Yale University. All three relevant to the discussion today.

Most citizens in the US probably don’t know what ethical culture and Unitarian Universalists are, I think. So what might be a good educational campaign for ethical culture adherents and Unitarian Universalists to pursue in the US?

Poppei: I’m sure that’s true! Ethical Culture is a very small movement–just 24 congregations across the country–and although Unitarian Universalism is much larger–over 1,000 congregations–that’s still small in the overall American religious landscape. In many ways, I think the justice work we do is the best advertisement for both movements. We have always had an influence in the world that’s larger than our size, as we have fought for equal rights, fairness, kindness, and mercy. UUs and Ethical Culturists show up at rallies, marches, organizing meetings, and town halls all across the country. Although we may have different beliefs (Unitarian Universalist is a pluralistic religious movement, and Ethical Culture welcomes people of all beliefs), we share a strong commitment to justice and a belief that every single person is worthy.

I think we also have a special appeal to families. More and more parents are choosing to raise their children outside of traditional religion–but they are still seeking a grounding in values, and a community to support their family. Both UU congregations and Ethical Societies offer that. Our education for children is based on encouraging questions and exploration, and creating a safe and nurturing space for children to spread their wings. We incorporate study of world religions, comprehensive sexuality education, and ethics education into almost every age group. And we mark the passages of the year, through celebrations like Winter Festival and Spring Festival, and the passages of life, through baby namings, weddings, and memorial services.

3. Jacobsen: So with the family background described and the academic qualifications listed, what pivotal moments, and subsequent momentum, lead to these important stages in life within the ethical culture and Unitarian Universalist movements? When did ministerial/chaplaincy/pastoral work become a ‘calling’ for you?

Poppei: 8th grade! I was on a Coming of Age trip to Boston with my Unitarian Universalist congregation, and had been visiting some of the sites around the city where famous Unitarians and Universalists had lived and wrote and worked. We went to visit the headquarters of the Unitarian Universalist Association, and as I stood in the bookstore and looked around at the titles I suddenly thought: I want to spend my life thinking about these things!

As time went on, I continued to think about ministry. In high school, I would have said that congregations seemed like the best way to organize people to do good in the world (and I still think that). In college, I was a Religious Studies major and began to learn more about the role of religion in American life. And then of course in seminary–which I entered a few years after graduating college–I deepened my understanding of the values, theology, and philosophy that ground my life’s work.

4. Jacobsen: What is the best argument for ethical culture or for Unitarian Universalism that you have ever come across?

Poppei: We are not alone in the world–we are connected to each other. We need to practice what it means to be human together, to be in relationship as a way of supporting our own growth and as a way of working for justice in the world. Both Unitarian Universalism and Ethical Culture remind us of these core truths, and give us a place to practice, learn, and transform.

5. Jacobsen: What seems like the main reason for individuals becoming a member of the ethical culture and Unitarian Universalist community? For example, arguments from logic and philosophy, evidence from mainstream science, or experience within traditional religious structures, even simply a touching personal experience.

Poppei: I think it’s a bit of all of those things. Most people that come to the Washington Ethical Society–the congregation I serve–have done a lot of thinking about what they believe. Whether they were raised in a traditional religion or raised secular, they’ve been thoughtful about their beliefs and worldview. Almost all of them share an essentially naturalistic worldview, and a sense that they want to be grounded in the here-and-now. What they’re looking for when they come to us is a community in which they can live out those values, where they can have the benefits of a congregation but without dogma that no longer works for them. They are looking for a place to support their family, or to care for them if they have a crisis, or just to provide a set aside time each week to be thoughtful and introspective. They often choose our community because they like our commitment to justice work. Ultimately, I think they are searching for a sense of belonging and a chance to make a difference in the world.

6. Jacobsen: What tasks and responsibilities come with the senior leadership position?

Poppei: I am responsible for our Sunday morning gatherings–I speak 2-3 times a month, and support guest speakers for the other Sundays. I provide pastoral care, visiting people in the hospital and offering counseling as needed (and I also work with a great group of members who do that work too). I serve as head of staff, and am responsible for managing the day to day operations of the congregation, everything from creating and tracking the budget to overseeing programming–although in all of that work I collaborate with a wonderful staff. And I work with the Board and the entire membership on setting vision and strategy for the congregation. Finally, I work out in the world, outside the walls of the congregation, fighting for what is right. That’s very often done in coalition, with interfaith groups or with secular groups.

7. Jacobsen: What are some of the demographics of the Washington Ethical Society? (Age, sex, political affiliation, and so on)

Poppei: We are a majority white, generationally diverse membership. We have slightly more women than men. Most WES members are progressive, ranging from pretty liberal to quite radical! We have Millennials, Gen X-ers, Boomers, and Silent Generation, plus of course children and teens who are the newest generational cohort. The number of people of color in our community is small but growing. Most (but not all) WES members have a college degree, and many have a Masters or other advanced degree. They work in many different fields, but the helping professions (teaching, social work, etc) and public service and nonprofit work are highly represented.

8. Jacobsen: What is pastoral care within an ethical culture/Unitarian Universalist framework?

Poppei: It looks pretty similar to in any community. I work with a team of lay Pastoral Care Associates, members who are specially trained to offer care in times of crisis. We support members in practical ways–like bringing meals and giving rides to the doctor–and we also just visit with people and try to be present to them when they are struggling. I offer pastoral counseling as well, to people who are struggling with hard choices or just having a hard time in life.

9. Jacobsen: How does it differ from traditional definitions, theory and practice? Are there major differences?

Poppei: Of course we don’t believe that the things that happen to people are part of God’s plan, so there’s a difference perhaps in the overall conceptual framework. But the practice of caring for people is really the same no matter what your ideas behind it are–it’s about showing up for people when times are hard and celebrating with them when times are good.

10. Jacobsen: You earned the National Capital Area Big Sister (2007) award from Hermanos y Hermanas Mayores/Big Brothers Big Sisters and the Anti-Racism Sermon Award (2006) from the Joseph Priestly District of the Unitarian Universalist Association for The Tip of the Iceberg. What was the background for the awards? What was the content and purpose of The Tip of the Iceberg?

Poppei: That was a long time ago! I was talking about the differences between overt racism–like using racist slurs–and systemic racism, which is sometimes harder to spot but still incredibly damaging to individuals and to society as a whole.

11. Jacobsen: How fulfilling is this recognition?

Poppei: It was great to be recognized, especially at that time when I was still a seminarian, still training for the ministry.

12. Jacobsen: What extra responsibility to the public comes with the recognition?

Poppei: None. But certainly work on issues of racism continues to be a vital part of my work.

13. Jacobsen: What is the importance of connecting youths to an ethical culture and Unitarian Universalist base for the sense of shared community?

Poppei: Adolescence is a time of incredible transition. Having the support of a community bigger than one’s family can be so important–knowing adults beside your parents who care about you and want to see you thrive. Our LGBTQ teens know that they are supported and welcome in this community, as well. And in general our teens get to connect with others who support their values, who want to make a difference in the world. I am always blown away by their thoughtfulness and passion; we learn a great deal from them.

14. Jacobsen:What do you consider the main threat to ethical culture and Unitarian Universalism in America? What have been perennial threats to them?

Poppei: I’m not sure I think in terms of threats in this way. Injustice and bigotry are threats to all people, and we work against that. Not sure what this question might mean.

15. Jacobsen:What are the common problems of community found at Washington Ethical Society?

Poppei: Like any community, we have conflict–that comes from people being in relationship with each other! We are a diverse community, with many backgrounds and beliefs represented, which means we don’t always like the same music or styles of speaking. But that also is part of the richness in our community, and most folks really love the opportunity to learn from each other.

16. Jacobsen: How can people become involved with or donate to the American Ethical Union or the Washington Ethical Society?

Poppei: They can check out our website at www.ethicalsociety.org and click on the “give” button on the top right to donate…or explore the rest of our website to learn about our activities. To find other Ethical Societies, check out http://aeu.org/who-we-are/member-societies/ and to find other Unitarian Universalist congregations, try http://www.uua.org/directory/congregations.

Jacobsen: Thank you for your time, Minister Poppei.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Senior Leader & Unitarian Universalist Minister, Washington Ethical Society (Ethical Culture and Unitarian Universalist).

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 8, 2017 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-amanda-poppei; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2017 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Minister Amanda Poppei [Online].June 2017; 14(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-amanda-poppei.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, June 8). An Interview with Minister Amanda Poppei. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-amanda-poppei.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Minister Amanda Poppei. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A, June. 2017. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-amanda-poppei>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with Minister Amanda Poppei.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-amanda-poppei.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Minister Amanda Poppei.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A (June 2017). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-amanda-poppei.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Minister Amanda Poppei‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 14.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-amanda-poppei>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Minister Amanda Poppei’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 14.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-amanda-poppei.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Minister Amanda Poppei.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 14.A (2017):June. 2017. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-amanda-poppei>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Minister Amanda Poppei [Internet]. (2017, June; 14(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-amanda-poppei.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

4 Comments
2017-06-01

An Interview with Professor Jonathan Schooler (Part One)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 14.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Ten)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: June 1, 2017

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,178

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

An interview with Professor Jonathan Schooler. He discusses: family background; influence on development; family involvement in psychology; interests and in particular brain science; and the University of California, Santa Barbara and tasks and responsibilities.

Keywords: brain science, Jonathan Schooler, mindfulness, psychology.

An Interview with Professor Jonathan Schooler: Professor, Psychological and Brain Sciences, University of California, Santa Barbara; Director, The Center for Mindfulness and Human Potential (Part One)[1],[2]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been edited for clarity and readability.*​

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: To preface the conversation, you authored over 200 academic papers. Too much to cover here. Nonetheless, the conversation can develop with the central aspects of the theses. In terms of geography, culture, and language, where does your family background reside?

Professor Jonathan Schooler: My family background is Eastern European, Jewish. My mother’s family is from Poland. My father’s family is from Ukraine. My parents grew up in New York city. I grew up in Washington, D.C.

2. Jacobsen: Following from that, naturally, how did this influence development?

Schooler: Another important thing I should mention. [Laughing] Almost everyone in my family for generations are psychologists. From my grandmother’s perspective, she wasn’t a psychologist, but she was a special education teacher. She had two brothers. One of whom became a psychologist and was a professor at NYU. Then she had two children. Both became psychologists. My father married Nina Schooler. She is also a psychologist. They had two kids, myself and my brother. He was a psychologist.

I am a psychologist. Myriam, my father’s sister, married Ivan, also a psychologist. They had two children. One of whom became a psychologist. The great uncle had a grandson, who got his PhD at the University at Pittsburgh – and I served on his committee – and is also a psychologist. My oldest son is a graduate student at UC Santa Cruz. He also is a psychologist. My daughter is still in college. She is trying to fight her fate, but time will tell. There must be something in the culture that I grew up influenced my career choice. [Laughing]

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Schooler: Genetics probably as well.

3. Jacobsen: I am stunned by that. That’s great. Leading into your own life with that broad background, with psychology behind and ahead of you, what about pivotal moments and major influences in major points of life up to and including undergraduate studies? 

Schooler: That’s a challenging question. I would say that one of the most important things is a certain kind of attitude that my parents always had with me. It was one of being on an equal playing field in some really fundamental way. It is interesting. I called my parents by their first names rather than mom and dad. In fact, I have my kids call me mom and dad. So, I’m not sure I would necessarily advocate it. It would influence me. That is, we are all on the same playing field and to appreciate that everyone is really there. I think that influenced me in the way that, I hope, I interact with people and ideas.

In the sense of giving them a chance and expecting possibilities from them, and so I feel like that is a big influence on the way that I approach things, it has carried on to this day in the way that I try to respect the differences of perspective that show up in the fields that I am involved in, time and time again. It doesn’t mean that they aren’t reasonable if you don’t see the topic the same way. I have managed to find a middle ground and have discussions with people on both sides of the debate, who often had hard times talking with one another.

So, it came from an experience of respect within my family, also with my kids. Other important things are my kindergarten teacher, Mrs. K. She talked, not like a lot of adults at you, with me. It is the same thing of acknowledging and respecting that someone is there like you on the other side. Then in 6th grade, I had a teacher named Mrs. Gibson who asked us to think about utopia and ask what we wanted in a country to create a country. It showed things in a more abstract way than I thought before.

In senior year, I took a course by a professor named Michael Kersberg at Georgetown University. It was on power. We read all of these books on power and how power influenced them. Another thing that was absolutely one of the most pivotal things, I’d say, is when I was 14 my father gave me a copy of the book by Alan Watts in which he introduced Hindu and Buddhist thought, with the idea that the university is playing hide-and-seek with itself. That there was a certain playfulness to the world, and the yin and yang to the world. A bunch of different perspectives on reality.

Also, Deb Herman, my mentor got me thinking about memory and how memory fits into our everyday experiences, and reflecting on phenomenal experiences and, of course, my graduate mentor, Elizabeth Loftus, who taught me how to challenge and take on the establishment if you have disagreement with it. That is, courage is an important part of science, and then the elegance with which she carried out her research and breaking her problems down into answerable questions. Now, that brings to me to my professional career.

4. Jacobsen: There’s two questions associated a tiny bit before that. You mentioned the family involvement in psychology, one after the other, and the K through college influences, also the particular moments of interest in psychology. What brain science in particular? When did brain science become a specialty interest?

Schooler: I would say that that has been an ever-increasing appreciation, but I didn’t come into it from a brain science perspective. I really came in from a psychology perspective, and what has become increasingly career is looking at the brain can help to inform my interest in any of the basic psychological questions. But I must say, though I have done quite a bit of it myself, it is more challenging than is reported – to extract meaningful, deep, new understandings about psychological processes from brain processes.

There are definitely people who do that, who accomplish that, but when you really look closely at a lot of research. It is not obvious how it actually informs our basic understanding. If informs our understanding of where the basic understanding of the brain, but doesn’t necessarily inform our understanding of the process. I am more interested in the process.

5. Jacobsen: You are a professor at the University of California, Santa Barbara. You teach courses in mindfulness, cognitive psychology, memory, and consciousness. As a primer for all of that, what tasks and responsibilities come with this position?

Schooler: [Laughing] A great many, the most important ones are the hardest to put into words. Obviously, there are a lot of basic responsibilities to do with teaching, supervising students and participating in committees, travel, meeting people, having endless, endless meetings. I have collaborators all over the world. So, I am constantly meeting with people and corresponding with these people and trying to keep track of all of the projects. That does take a large portion of every day, but, really, it is the generation of the ideas and the pursuit of the bigger vision that is a major challenge of my career.

What I try to do as best I can is to delegate and empower and help, and it is really great when it works, with the generation of ideas and the discussion of their execution, and to help others to carry it out, and to be there on the other side of the write-up and the spin, my students ask for Schooler’s spin. My students and postdocs refer to “Schooler’s spin.” many of the titles of my papers, if you peruse them, have a quality to them, and that is not by accident.

6. Jacobsen: In brief, what do the top topics include for students, whether mindfulness, cognitive psychology, or consciousness?

Schooler: Consciousness is one of my favourite themes. It is covered in one of the many classes that I teach. Typically, from a combination of cognitive and social influence, there is a peculiar pecking order in psychology, where fields attend to their higher level. The level that is higher in the hierarchy rather than the lower ones, the ones lower in the pecking order. For example, cognitive psychologists have been paying very close attention to neuroscience. Neuroscientists look at the chemistry, chemists look at physics. I guess, we tend to look less at the field below them.

Neuroscientists tend not to look at the cognitive psychologists. They do now, some, but it doesn’t do the cross-talk as much. In social psychology, in social cognition, they pay a lot of attention to cognitive psychology, but cognitive psychology tended to not pay as much attention to social psychology. I have gained from that. I think there are some low-hanging fruit, where there are some amazing insights in social psychology.

Although, I characterize it as a hierarchy. I think many of the greatest ideas from the mind have come from that field. So, with respect to mindfulness, that has been great fun for me because it allows you to integrate ideas, the really fundamental ideas from different fields such as contemplative studies, and social psychology, cognitive psychology, and neuroscience. All of this contribute to the idea that when people deliberately tend to their experience in a non-judgmental way and make a practice of honing their attention, and sharpening it in the present, that that has really remarkable repercussions throughout their lives in many ways.

That’s an exciting topic. It is very timely. There is an increasing amount of research. it is exciting because it ties together ancient traditions and modern science. it shows there’s great value to perennial wisdom. With respect to cognitive science, I am interested in how we construct reality, our memories, our perceptual systems, all conspire to produce a construction, which corresponds in some general to physical reality – but is a projection of it in our own minds.

I try to illustrate this throughout. We are dealing with projections of reality rather than real reality. With memory, it is very much the same idea. It is the constructive nature of reality. This is really what we are really doing We are creating meaning and narratives from everything around it. Again, it has a correspondence to what happened in the real world. It is dynamic, selective, and hold on to some facts that serve it. It is motivated. We remember things to suit our agendas in some fundamental ways.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Professor, Psychological and Brain Sciences, University of California, Santa Barbara; Director, The Center for Mindfulness and Human Potential.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 1, 2017 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-professor-jonathan-schooler-part-one; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2017 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Professor Jonathan Schooler (Part One) [Online].June 2017; 14(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-professor-jonathan-schooler-part-one.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, June 1). An Interview with Professor Jonathan Schooler (Part One). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-professor-jonathan-schooler-part-one.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Professor Jonathan Schooler (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A, June. 2017. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-professor-jonathan-schooler-part-one>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with Professor Jonathan Schooler (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-professor-jonathan-schooler-part-one.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Professor Jonathan Schooler (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A (June 2017). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-professor-jonathan-schooler-part-one.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Professor Jonathan Schooler (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 14.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-professor-jonathan-schooler-part-one>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Professor Jonathan Schooler (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 14.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-professor-jonathan-schooler-part-one.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Professor Jonathan Schooler (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 14.A (2017):June. 2017. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-professor-jonathan-schooler-part-one>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Professor Jonathan Schooler (Part One) [Internet]. (2017, June; 14(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-professor-jonathan-schooler-part-one.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2017-05-22

An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Four)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 14.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Ten)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: May 22, 2017

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,002

ISSN 2369-6885

Gordon Guyatt

Abstract

An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC. He discusses: academic scientific organizations, research groups, and laboratories and their importance to the health of a society; observed impacts of evidence-based medicine in Canada; skepticism and importance of increasing academic and public awareness of critical thinking; hypothetical worst case scenario; hypothetical best case scenario; uncomfortable truths in the Canadian medical research community; uncomfortable truths in the international medical research community; concerns about Canadian culture and general medical knowledge; most correct ethical philosophy; most appealing political philosophy; most appealing social philosophy; clarification on social philosophy; most appealing economic philosophy; principles interrelating the philosophies; and principles that interrelate the philosophies.

Keywords:  biostatistics, epidemiology, evidence-based medicine, Gordon Guyatt, McMaster University, research.

An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Four)[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been edited for clarity and readability.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What makes academic scientific organizations, research groups, and laboratories important to the health of a society with substantial technological sophistication such as Canada?

Professor Gordon Guyatt: Aside from the economic drivers, they lead to useful things for the economy. Ideally, they are treatments or management, or sometimes tests, leading to better patient outcomes, meaning people live longer or live better. Medicine has not been the number one contributor for living longer and living better

2. Jacobsen: What have been the observed impacts of evidence-based medicine in Canada?

Guyatt: That is a bit of a challenge. One that is unequivocal is that every educational program, undergraduate or post-graduate says, “We have to teach people to use the literature.” As you know, when the Royal College comes along and looks at residency programs, people who license universities to teach doctors. They say, “Are you teaching this EBM stuff?” Students are learning it. Indeed, it is standard for institutions to teach it. Guidelines have become more evidence-based.

The stories I told, you won’t see treatment where the evidence is in and the recommendations are ten years behind the times. You won’t see a new treatment where the randomized trials suggest the thing is useless, or even harmful to people. You do not see that anymore. We have a way to go in terms of dissemination now, but care is much more evidence-based than before. Values and preferences are still neglected! Ironically enough. However, people are doing things much, much more on the basis of the evidence than was previously the case.

3. Jacobsen: You mentioned a value in the home at the very outset of the conversation to do with skepticism. Something important to develop early in life, seems to me at least, comes from a natural philosophic or scientific bent, and logic and general doubt. Canadian, American, British, and Scottish cultural heroes state this in one way or another including David Suzuki, Carl Sagan, Bertrand Russell, the aforementioned David Hume, and others. What seems like the important of their – dead or alive, I know many of them are, 3 out of 4 – role for the increasing of academic and public awareness of critical thinking and evidence-based decision making?

Guyatt: Now, you’re asking me to be a social scientist, which I am not, I have a general notion: we’re always building on what is there before. EBM is skepticism-oriented. I don’t think we’re conscious a lot of the time about what has created the culture. So if you asked me who were the most prominent in intellectual history in Western culture, and in creating an atmosphere of skepticism, you listed a bunch. If you asked me before you listed them, I would have been in big trouble in terms of listing them myself.

You’re right. They created the milieu. When I went into it, and my mentors went into it, they had a natural skepticism. I am not a social scientist. I don’t know how this happened or how these things infiltrate the culture, but they do.

4. Jacobsen: Hypothetical worst case scenario: if Canadian citizens do not have accurate science information when making decisions about medicine, science, and public policy, how would this affect their everyday lives?

Guyatt: It depends on the particular decision. I will take one public policy item, which is the safe needle programs. The Harper government tried to shut down the Vancouver site. The safe needle program saves lives. This was interesting. It went to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court said, “You can’t do this because of the evidence.” My political background and ideas lean Left. So it will not surprise that I was not fond of the Harper government, but their anti-science, suppressing the science in areas of the environment, in the areas of health, were extremely problematic.

One public policy issue where it was very problematic was the safe needle programs. The Supreme Court said, “Okay, you can’t ignore the science.” The science saved us.

5. Jacobsen: Hypothetical best case scenario: if Canadian citizens do have accurate science information when making decisions about medicine, science, and public policy, how will this affect their everyday lives?

Guyatt: That [Laughing] goes beyond medicine. To me, the swings in education are striking. Now, we should be structured. Everybody taking examinations and licensing. Ten years later, it is all wrong. We are restricting people. Nobody is being imaginative, and so on. Just do the rigorous experiments, and we would be able to find out what really is optimal.

The same thing happens in health care organization issues.  At one point you see the provincial government saying, “Oh, let’s centralize all healthcare decision-making in the province.”

Then a few years later, “Oh, it’s all going wrong.. No, no, let’s give more power to local decision-makers”  Then, a few years later. “No, no, that doesn’t work, let’s take the power back.” There are these swings. Why? Because nobody bothers to test it properly. Let’s get together, Canada is big enough. Let’s randomize jurisdictions to have decisions centralized, or take the responsibility and have the money going with it to local decision-makers. There are different ways of organizing decision-making. Let’s test it out!

As opposed to saying, or having people doing it out of conviction, “It sounds like a good idea. It kind of makes sense.” In medicine, we have recognized that’s not a good idea. People once thought bloodletting made sense as a treatment of pneumonia. Most supported bloodletting for all sorts of illnesses. It doesn’t make sense anymore, but it made sense to people before. As opposed to doing things because they made sense, the “what makes sense” is extremely fallible.

We have been conducting experiments and finding drugs thought to be beneficial, which end up killing people. Unfortunately, it happens from time-to-time. To do that within the wider realms of all kinds of public policy would be really nice.

6. Jacobsen: What seem like some uncomfortable truths in the medical research community at the moment in Canada?

Guyatt: I am having trouble, but one we may be swinging another way. We’re undertreating pain with narcotics. A lot of people suffer, unnecessarily. That was what was being told to everybody 10 years ago. Now, we have the epidemic of narcotic deaths. People were not prescribing properly. So there would be one example. Another one is everybody should be taking large doses of vitamin d for anything that ails you.

Now, fortunately, vitamin d is pretty innocuous. So we’re probably not hurting anyone, but the evidence in support of vitamin d helping anything is limited even in an optimistic analysis. It seems to have caught on as a rage. Like I say, the narcotics examples have terrible consequences. People might take too much of an unnecessary vitamin. Fortunately, it is not having – aside from the pocket book – minimal adverse effects.

7. Jacobsen: I could see a reason for that. 200,000 to 70,000 years ago, when we were roaming around from Lebanon’s Beqaa Valley to Mozambique, in the Great Rift Valley along with our other Great Primate ancestors, you’re in the sun all day. So you’re going to create a lot of vitamin d. I could see a reason for evolutionary mechanisms selected for that would buffer against or that would make it innocuous.

Guyatt: Yes, you’ve given a good example of physiological reasoning, which sometimes leads us in the right direction and occasionally in the wrong direction.

8. Jacobsen: What about in an international context, outside of Canada in other words?

There are unscrupulous people selling stem cell therapy for anything. In low and middle income countries, where things are not regulated as much, there are whole buildings and clinics built to take advantage of vulnerable people. Another thing would be cancer treatments. Another good example is multiple sclerosis. There is an Italian surgeon who came up with something about the blood vessels. It became a big rage. Everybody went off to different places all over to get his treatment.  Now, it has been recognized as completely without foundation.

There are drugs not in use in Canada, but are in use in India – where things are not regulated as well. These are useless. They are different than vitamin d. They have side effects. In low and middle income countries, where the dollar is much more crucial, there are all sort of unfortunate things happening.

9. Jacobsen: What about Canadian culture and general medical knowledge concerns you? Because that seems to me like the root of both to you of the things you’ve described.

Guyatt: One of my favorite mentees and a good friend is – he’s about my age – late in his career, and his current enthusiasm is about treating critical health thinking to grade school children. When I started in EBM, I realized this isn’t about healthcare, but this is about everything. I have given the education example, but people are talking evidence-based this, that, and the other thing now. I am delighted to hear it.

We need skepticism. The appropriate standards of what to believe and not to believe in every area. To an extent, my colleague succeeds in getting it into the grade schools and developing critical thinking is, or would be, a very good thing.

10. Jacobsen: What ethical philosophy seems the most correct to you?

Guyatt: “Correct” is an interesting word. How about substituting “appealing” for “correct”? Which tells you what I think about ethics, I told the story of the ethical standards with the 95-year-old demented person, which was radically different in North America, Peru, and Saudi Arabia. When people believed different things, the ethical decisions would differ. None of them is right. Healthcare, one of the big issues is equity. So we talked about equity versus choice. In the US, choice is a big value. I should be able to pay for better healthcare. A different ethical stance is equity is important. The fundamental thing, in politics and healthcare, my belief is equity is a much more important ethical principle than choice.

11. Jacobsen: What political philosophy seems the most appealing to you?

Guyatt: I am an old time socialist. [Laughing] I believe in governments. I believe in strong governments. We have seen plenty of evidence. When you don’t have governments regulating banks, and businesses, you have catastrophic results. I believe in income redistribution. Those responsible for the public wellbeing do things to ensure the public wellbeing.

12. Jacobsen: What social philosophy seems the most appealing to you?

Guyatt: Social philosophy, I am really ignorant. Quickly, educate me what is meant by “social philosophy.”

13. Jacobsen: By “social philosophy,” I mean the ways in which we should more efficiently, or better, arrange our social structures as a group or as individuals.

Guyatt: We are rich by interacting with each other. It is important to respect one another and to respect different ways of doing things.

14. Jacobsen: What economic philosophy seems the most appealing to you?

Guyatt: I do not like liberalism in the sense of economic liberalism and letting free markets do their thing. We have lots of examples. Obviously, there seems to me a big overlap between political and economic philosophies. I mentioned looking at the catastrophes of letting free markets operate in an unconstrained way.

15. Jacobsen: What principles interrelate these philosophies?

Guyatt: Equity would be one. Equity would be something that cuts across political and social philosophies. In contrasting between what’s more important, individual freedom or the wellbeing of the group, the individual freedoms, lower individual freedoms, and more emphasis on the wellbeing of the group. Those would be two.

16. Jacobsen: Any feelings or thoughts in conclusion?

Guyatt: The feeling and thought, and conclusion, is having the opportunity to hold forth in this way. I have really enjoyed it. Some of what I’ve achieved in education on some things. It has been a lot of fun. Thank you for thinking of me.

Jacobsen: Thank you for your time, Professor Guyatt.

References

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  29. Tomsic, M. (2015, February 10). Dying. It’s Tough To Discuss, But Doesn’t Have To Be. Retrieved from http://wfae.org/post/dying-its-tough-discuss-doesnt-have-be.
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    Appendix I: Footnotes

    [1] Distinguished University Professor, Health Research Methods, Evidence and Impact, McMaster University.

    [2] Individual Publication Date: May 22, 2017 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-four; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2017 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

    [3] B.Sc., University of Toronto; M.D., General Internist, McMaster University Medical School; M.Sc., Design, Management, and Evaluation, McMaster University.

    [4] Credit: McMaster University.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Four) [Online].May 2017; 14(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-four.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, May 22). An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Four). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-four.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Four). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A, May. 2017. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-four>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-four.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A (May 2017). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-four.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Four)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 14.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-four>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Four)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 14.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-four.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 14.A (2017):May. 2017. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-four>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Four) [Internet]. (2017, May; 14(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-four.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

4 Comments
2017-05-15

An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Three)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 14.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Ten)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: May 15, 2017

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,849

ISSN 2369-6885

Gordon Guyatt

Abstract

An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC. He discusses: Sigmund Freud, Michel Foucault, Hirsch Index, and secure placement in the annals of medical and general history; evidence-based medicine (EBM) and its definition; the three principles of EM; and what one should do with evidence as value dependent.

Keywords: biostatistics, epidemiology, evidence-based medicine, Gordon Guyatt, Hirsch Index, McMaster University, research.

An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Three)[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been edited for clarity and readability.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: In a list, and many others, with the most cited researchers in Canada, and in the world, with inclusion of the dead such as Sigmund Freud and Michel Foucault, that is, the ranks done by a Hirsch Index – the calculation of papers and the citations per paper to derive an individual academic’s Hirsch Index.[5] You have over 187,000 citations with a Hirsch-Index of about 217. In short, you are one of the most cited researchers, or the most cited researcher, in Canada and the 12th most cited researcher in the world, circa second week of February, 2017. Your position in the annals of medical and general history is secure. Based on the accomplishment, what does this mean to you?

Professor Gordon Guyatt: You described an evolution during my career. This electronic counting of citations was not something around until about a decade ago. It became a standard by which people are judged because you can count it. In the past, you can say, “This paper is good. It seems to have influenced people. People seem to like it. I get the impression people are using it.” However, that is different than the figures there. You can say, “Okay, here people are reading this, and they are using it, and researchers are citing it in their own work, and so on and so forth.”

It has downsides, where journals are judged this way, too. The journals are rated by their impact factor, which is how much they are cited. It goes into gaming. The impact factor is the citations per article. One way to improve your impact factor is to publish less studies. Only publish the ones going to be cited. Then you make a deal, “Okay, this type of article. It is just really a type of opinion piece. It is going to count in the denominator of my ranking.”

It potentially has negative effects as opposed to using other criteria for important research, at least important to some people. Is it well done? It is good research? Those things may still be important. Is it going to be cited? How much is it going to be cited? Sometimes, complete baloney may get lots of citations. Leading journals always publish because of the newspaper value of their articles, but perhaps even more the case because the way the journal is evaluated is on the basis of this impact factor. It has to do with citations.

Even so, it is nice to have this objective standard of the fact that work has made an impact, but I am not sure this is healthy. However, it is nice. Usually, what happens with an article is that it comes out, has 2 or 3 years of high citations, citations fall off, and then 5 years 10 years later, it is not cited. Probably, it is the same for most publications. It is gratifying for me. I have papers cited a 100 times during a year. That is a lot of citations. Some are 20-years-old and getting about a 100 citations per year.

Even if 20 years later they get 25 citations per year, that says, “It is a major test of time. People find it useful.” That is, you do a piece of work, then somebody builds on it. Then what you did before, and what people cite the paper tells you that they have built on it, particularly if it gets cited 20 years later.  The original work is still compelling enough to people that they say, “Okay, I’m citing the work that started us down this road.” The way these things work with the electronic counting is nice.

It has downsides. It is distracting. One colleague made fun of me. I was saying, “Hey! I was checking my h-factor, and it is still going up.” My colleague responded, “Mirror, mirror on the wall…”, referring to one of the queens in the fairy tale saying, “Mirror, mirror on the wall, who’s the most beautiful of them all?” It was warranted. There are downsides, but it is nice to have objective criteria. It says, “People pay attention to your work and value it.”

2. Jacobsen: The phrase, sometimes mistaken for a term, “evidence-based medicine,” (EBM) originated in a paper by you. What defines EBM?

Guyatt: In 1990, I coined the term. 1991 was the first published paper that used the term. People often don’t notice that one. 1992 was the paper that caught the world’s attention.

3. Jacobsen: You summarized its principles. Principle one, summarize evidence to help make and guide the best decisions. Principle two, hierarchy of evidence for randomized trials. Principle three, context of value and preferences for expert decision making. What else defines evidence-based decision making? As per the presentation style, what are some examples?

Guyatt: To start, what you listed was not there at the beginning, it evolved. The values and preferences stuff was not there at the beginning. We didn’t get it. People thought values and preferences were in the sub-conscious, but we didn’t get it. It had to be added. The 1990s were the EBM aspect. 5 years later, we tweaked the values and preferences. The way we characterize it now is one principle is that you need to summarize and have systematic of all of the highest quality evidence to make good decisions.

An illustration would be that in many areas one paper says, “This treatment is great.” Another paper says, “It is not at all great.” A focus on either one will result in a misleading presentation. You need systematic summaries of the best available evidence. I tell stories. The stories illustrate treatments for myocardial infarction, where there’s one treatment where – this has been superseded but – we put in a drug, clot-busting drugs, that broke up the clots that were causing the heart attack.

Turns out that these clot-busting drugs reduces mortality by about 1/4. It was 10 years after the answer came back from randomized trials before the community got it. It was before the era of the systematic summaries. Another story is about another drug. People have heart attacks. They have arrhythmias, which means abnormalities of the heart beat. It can kill them.  The drug was given to obliterate or decrease nasty-looking arrhythmias. We thought, “Okay, if you get rid of the nasty-looking arrhythmias, you’re going to get rid of the ones that kill people.”

It didn’t. In fact, there have been a number of such promising looking drugs that have ended up killing people more. When I was in training, I was giving one such drug out all of the time. The evidence said this wasn’t a good idea, but nobody systematically summarized; people were picking studies here and there. We systematically summarize the best evidence to avoid that problem. Next, we need to know what makes the best evidence.

You mentioned a hierarchy of evidence. EBM has been criticized for being excessively randomized-trial focused; in the past, that might be true, but it has evolved. Now, we have much more sophisticated system, that acknowledges randomized trials may be poorly done. They may give inconsistent results. They may not be applicable to your patient. I work as a general internist. I have a lot of people over 90. A lot of randomized trials out there. It raises questions about the extent to which I can apply the trials to those over 90.

Trials may be small and less trustworthy. Anyway, we recognize randomized trials as a good thing. However, you might lose confidence in your randomized trials for a variety of reasons. Similarly, we don’t need randomized trials to show insulin works in diabetic ketoacidosis – where people are dead pretty quickly if you don’t use it. We don’t need randomized trials to show epinephrine works in people with anaphylactic shock who are about to die. We don’t need randomized trials to show that dialysis is a good thing for people with renal failure, et cetera.

There’s an explicit formulation, “Yes, in general, randomized trials generally give higher quality evidence, but sometimes not without limitations, and in general observational studies have lower quality evidence, but not always with large and clear effects.” So we developed a much more sophisticated hierarchy. Some evidence is more trustworthy than others, but we have developed a more sophisticated hierarchy.

The third principle is values and principles. I introduce values and preferences by saying, “What do you think about antibiotics for pneumonia?” Even the lay people will say, “Good idea! Yea, antibiotics worked for pneumonia, we all agree on the evidence. Antibiotics for pneumonia.” I say, “Let me tell you about a patient. He’s 95 years old. He’s severely demented, incontinent of bowel and bladder, lives in a long-care institution. He’s 95, nobody’s been to visit him for 5 years, and he moans in apparent discomfort from morning to night. This individual develops pneumonia. Do you think it’s a good idea that he gets antibiotics?”

In North America, 95% of people say, “No.” They think this guy would be better off dead. So treating the pneumonia is not doing him any favours, if you ask most people, put yourself in the situation of such an individual, would you want to be treated? Most people would say, “No, thank you.” In North America, 5% of people say, “Yes, it is a good idea to treat the person.” So we all agree on the evidence. Our disagreement as to whether this individual should be treated has nothing to do with the evidence.

It has to do with something else. We label that “values and preferences.” So I go on with the story. I used this example repeatedly to illustrate the values and preferences. I went to Peru probably 10 or 15 years ago. I already used the story in North America many times. I went to Peru and said, “Who thinks this is a good idea to treat this patient?” About 2/3rds of people raised their hand and said, “Yes.” I thought, “Wow, something’s wrong here. This is a Spanish speaking audience. I’m speaking English, I have not communicated properly.” I go over it slowly, again. two thirds of the people still say, “Yes.”

I asked the host afterwards, “How come it is so different?” They said, “Catholic culture.” That was their attribution. I go to Saudi Arabia. 95% of the people say, “Yes, the patient should be treated.” All of us agreed on the evidence. That’s not why there are differences. It is something else. That’s what we call values and preferences. Then I tell stories of people at risk of stroke. The treatment reduce stroke but will increase their risk of bleeding. Some people say, “Yes, use the treatment.” Because there’s big values in preventing stroke. Some people say, “No.” Because they are terrified of a bleeding, and so on.

In other words, evidence never tells you what to do, whenever there’s trade-offs with their values, preferences, and judgements, those are always important in making the right decision.

4. Jacobsen: This goes to some of the earliest, or more modern, empiricists like David Hume with his is/ought distinction. You can get the highest quality evidence you can get, even with modern technology, but what you should do with that evidence is going to be culture and value dependent.

Guyatt: That is exactly right. That is exactly right.

References

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  21. O’Dowd, A. (2016, July 21). Exercise could be as effective as surgery for knee damage. Retrieved from https://www.onmedica.com/newsArticle.aspx?id=e13a0a94-5e96-43b9-86b7-7de237630beb.
  22. Palmer, K. & Guyatt, G. (2014, December 16). New funding model a leap of faith for Canadian hospitals. Retrieved from http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/why-new-funding-model-a-leap-of-faith-for-canadian-hospitals/article22100796/.
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  24. Picard, A. (2015, May 25). David Sackett: The father of evidence-based medicine. Retrieved from http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/health/david-sackett-the-father-of-evidence-based-medicine/article24607930/.
  25. Priest, L. (2012, June 17). What you should know about doctors and self-referral fees. Retrieved from http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/ask-a-health-expert/what-you-should-know-about-doctors-and-self-referral-fees/article4267688/.
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  29. Tomsic, M. (2015, February 10). Dying. It’s Tough To Discuss, But Doesn’t Have To Be. Retrieved from http://wfae.org/post/dying-its-tough-discuss-doesnt-have-be.
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Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Distinguished University Professor, Health Research Methods, Evidence and Impact, McMaster University.

[2] Individual Publication Date: May 15, 2017 at www.in-sightjournal.com; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2017 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] B.Sc., University of Toronto; M.D., General Internist, McMaster University Medical School; M.Sc., Design, Management, and Evaluation, McMaster University.

[4] Credit: McMaster University.

[5] Webometrics. (2010). 1040 Highly Cited Researchers (h>100) according to their Google Scholar Citations public profiles. Retrieved from http://www.webometrics.info/en/node/58.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Three) [Online].May 2017; 14(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-three.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, May 15). An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Three). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-three.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Three). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A, May. 2017. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-three>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-three.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A (May 2017). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-three.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 14.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-three>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 14.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-three.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 14.A (2017):May. 2017. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-three>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Three) [Internet]. (2017, May; 14(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-three.

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2017-05-08

An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Two)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 14.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Ten)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: May 8, 2017

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,553

ISSN 2369-6885

Gordon Guyatt

Abstract

An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC. He discusses: personal research style; good and bad educators, and good and bad students; earning professional recognitions; responsibilities associated with exposure in the media; and what makes a good speaker and presentation on medicine and public policy.

Keywords: biostatistics, epidemiology, Gordon Guyatt, McMaster University, research.

An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Two)[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been edited for clarity and readability.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What defines personal research style to you?

Professor Gordon Guyatt: A couple of things. One style may be a little obsessive-compulsive, which is required to some extent. I contrast myself with an extremely successful researcher who has everything planned for the future. He knows. For this guy, with his 5-year plan, he can go right up to 4 years and 11 months. He knows. He has a direction. I am at the other extreme. Where you ask me what I am going to be doing 3 months from now, I couldn’t tell you.

It suits me, especially with the different graduate students. Each doing something different. I can’t even track them. I follow along. So the contrasting strategies are a careful plan versus whatever idea occurs to you today and follow it along. Those are extreme differences.

Another style issue is collaboration. I’m in this extremely collaborative environment, but there are gradients. There are people who like to collaborate, but they prefer more to do their own thing. They like to lead projects. The contrast is between enjoying the collaborative working environment whatever one’s roles as opposed to being the boss.

Some investigators like to be a boss and equality in collaboration with younger or junior folks is less their style. I see myself at the other extreme of someone who loves collaboration and loves creating teams of people. Others may not be ready to treat juniors as equals, not ready to tell them explicitly, “It’s your project. You make decisions. I’ll make suggestions. I’ll make a case. I’ll tell you if I think you’re going wrong. I’ll tell you how I think it could be made better, but it’s your project and your decision.” Those are different approaches.

Each approach has its merits. There are many successful people who are disciplined, have a plan, like to be the boss, and still manage mentorship. It is not one is better than the other, or right or wrong, but I see myself more in the collaboration and team creation side of the spectrum.

2. Jacobsen: I will dig a little deeper, but connect this to mentors and students. What differentiates a good teacher or educator from the bad one, and the good student from the bad one?

Guyatt: There are different styles. A good teacher has to be enthusiastic, love what they’re doing, deeply care about what they’re doing, place a high value on sparking the excitement, response, interest, and engagement of the learner. Ideally, or to some extent a necessity, being a good at explaining, clarifying, simplifying, finding ways to communicate concepts so the light goes on in the learner. The bad teacher will be the opposite. Not terribly excited, not a high level of enthusiasm.

Also, not caring about whether the message gets through or not, and simply wants to teach the course and move on, not very good at communicating concepts, and so on, it would be the absence of the positive characteristics. Good students, it is nice if they are smart. It is nice if they are well organized. I have students who are limited in those ways. Fortunately, even those folks are committed, hardworking, most are good listeners, they take direction well.

If lucky, the best learners are imaginative, pick up ideas fast, start using the concepts themselves, start coming up with great ideas I would never have thought, which is the imagination, energetic, and enthusiastic. Occasionally, somebody comes along. A few people come along who have everything. I have had the opportunity to mentor them. It is wonderful. Most of the people in this huge slew of these PhD students only have one or more of the characteristics. Most care, are committed and hardworking, but there is tremendous variability.

3. Jacobsen: You earned the McMaster University “President’s Award for Excellence in Teaching” (Course or Resource Design), short-list for the “British Medical Journal Lifetime Achievement Award,” as well as the positions of Fellow of the Canadian Academy of Health Sciences, Distinguished University Professor at McMaster University, Officer of the Order of Canada, Fellow of the Ryan Society of Canada, and a member of the Canadian Medical Hall of Fame.[5] These mean weight to professional work, lifetime achievement, and expressed opinions by you. What do these recognitions mean to you?

Guyatt: Two mean the most to me. One is the Order of Canada or Officer of the Order of Canada because of the recognition outside of science and medicine. It is a recognition of contribution to the wider society. The other called the – the Canadian Institutes of Health is the leading academic granting body in the country, the premier, the most prestigious grants, and they have an award called – Canada’s Health Researcher of the Year (CHR), which doesn’t mean great job for the year. It is a career award. It is saying, “Who is the top researcher in the country to whom we haven’t already given an award?” There is a competition for research dollars among basic scientists, test-tube physiology-oriented scientists, and folks like me who are clinical researchers.

The basic researchers dominate the CHR. That is, the clinical epidemiology researchers see those guys get more of the money than us. There is a competition between groups. Most people would agree that the senior leadership in CHR is basic science. Anyway, several years ago, they gave me Canada’s Health Researcher of the Year award. It was nice. They were saying, “You’re the best researcher in the country, leaving aside all of those that have already won the award.” I earned the award as a clinical research, not as a basic researcher.

That was the recognition. On the one hand, with the Order of Canada, I was recognized for making a social contribution important to the society as a whole beyond my field; on the other hand, they chose me as the top researcher in the country. That was nice in terms of recognition.

4. Jacobsen: Associated with this. You have numerous representations in the media. What responsibilities to the public, and the medical, public policy, and scientific community?

Guyatt: To behave with integrity, the main responsibility when you disseminate is accuracy. Another specific concern is conflict of interest. Many people within the medical community who take public stances are conflicted. They get lots of money from industry. It is hard for that not to influence you. We have intellectual conflicts of interest. Every researcher prefers their research. If their findings contradict somebody else’s, then they are right. The other person’s findings must be wrong. This is a universal phenomenon.

There is a responsibility to be aware of one’s conflict of interest. When there are conflicts of interest, it is crucial to make the conflicts clear. Also, there is responsibility to attempt to minimize the conflicts of interest, and the presentation and interpretation of things. There is a responsibility to listen and be open to other perspectives. Other people’s points of views.

5. Jacobsen: You spoke in many, many venues and gave many, many other lectures. What makes a good speaker, and a great presentation on medicine and public policy?

Guyatt: There are the same pieces if you’re talking about medicine and public policy, or whether you’re talking about basic clin-epi. We will talk about large group presentations. [Laughing] I run a course on how to teach evidence-based healthcare. One of the things is the students often see what we hope is the best lectures. These group are small groups, but lectures are done well. They see a few lectures. Then we say, “What’s made this lecture good?” As much as we’d like to think we put on good lectures, there are issues.

First, the person must be enthusiastic. They must give the impression that they believe that what they’re talking about is interesting, energetic, and that manifests itself in various ways. I never speak from behind a podium. I give a roving mic. I come out in front of the audience getting or becoming immediate with the audience. As one of my colleagues has said, “Just talk to them.” Which means, be calm, relaxed, and conversational, and look around, and talk to the people in front of you, you should make eye contact.

With a 1,000 people, you can make eye contact all over the place. Well-organized, very knowledgeable about what you’re talking about, we have a rule: “Tell’em what you’re going to say, say it, and then tell’em what you’ve said.” An organization includes, “Okay, folks, here are the major points I’m going to make.” You do it. At the end, you say, “Okay, folks, what might you want to take away from this, what major points have we made.” That structure is a crucial thing.

Humor if you can manage it. Oh! Examples, tell stories, the way to communicate things if you’re speaking in public, my talks are mostly story after story after story of illustrating things. You need to engage people by telling stories. One thing, I have done this stuff for so long. It comes naturally. I have to be careful. If I am not careful, I will be talking at the same time in – not quite a monotone, but a very even tone.

“Point one. Now, point two. Now, point three,” as opposed to, “Point one. Now, point three, which is much more important! Point three. Point four!” The modulation of tone and affect rather than an even tone and affect. That’s one thing. That’s a bunch of stuff. I could probably think of some more.

References

  1. Bennett, K. (2014, October 31). New hospital funding model ‘a shot in the dark,’ McMaster study says. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/new-hospital-funding-model-a-shot-in-the-dark-mcmaster-study-says-1.2817321.
  2. Blackwell, T. (2015, February 1). World Health Organization’s advice based on weak evidence, Canadian-led study says. Retrieved from http://news.nationalpost.com/health/world-health-organizations-advice-extremely-untrustworthy-and-not-evidence-based-study.
  3. Branswell, H. (2014, January 30). You should be avoiding these products on drug-store shelves. Retrieved from http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/health/you-should-be-avoiding-these-products-on-drug-store-shelves/article16606013/?page=all.
  4. Canadian News Wire. (2015, October 8). The Canadian Medical Hall of Fame announces 2016 inductees. Retrieved from http://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/the-canadian-medical-hall-of-fame-announces-2016-inductees-531287111.html.
  5. Cassar, V. & Bezzina, F. (2015, March 25). The evidence is clear. Retrieved from http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20150325/life-features/The-evidence-is-clear.561338.
  6. Clarity Research. (2016). Clinical Advances Through Research and Information Translation. Retrieved from http://www.clarityresearch.ca/gordon-guyatt/.
  7. Craggs, S. (2015, July 21). We can actually win this one, Tom Mulcair tells Hamilton crowd. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/we-can-actually-win-this-one-tom-mulcair-tells-hamilton-crowd-1.3162688.
  8. Escott, S. (2013, December 2). Mac professor named top health researcher. Retrieved from http://www.thespec.com/news-story/4249292-mac-professor-named-top-health-researcher/.
  9. Feise, R. & Cooperstein, R. (2014, February 1). Putting the Patient First. Retrieved from http://www.dynamicchiropractic.com/mpacms/dc/article.php?id=56855.
  10. Frketich, J. (2016, July 8). 63 McMaster University investigators say health research funding is flawed. Retrieved from http://www.thespec.com/news-story/6759872-63-mcmaster-university-investigators-say-health-research-funding-is-flawed/.
  11. Helsingin yliopisto. (2017, March 23). Clot or bleeding? Anticoagulants walk the line between two risks. Retrieved from https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/03/170323083909.htm.
  12. Hopper, T. (2012, August 24). You’re pregnant, now sign this petition: Group slams Ontario doctors’ ‘coercive’ tactics to fight cutbacks. Retrieved from http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/youre-pregnant-now-sign-this-petition-group-criticizes-doctors-who-encourage-patients-to-sign-anti-cutbacks-letter.
  13. Kerr, T. (2011, May 30). Thomas Kerr: Insite has science on its side. Retrieved from http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/thomas-kerr-vancouvers-insite-clinic-has-been-a-resounding-success.
  14. Kirkey, S. (2015, October 29). WHO gets it wrong again: As with SARS and H1N1, its processed-meat edict went too far. Retrieved from http://news.nationalpost.com/health/is-whos-smackdown-of-processed-meat-a-considerable-overcall-or-just-informing-the-public-of-health-risks.
  15. Kolata, G. (2016, August 3). Why ‘Useless’ Surgery Is Still Popular. Retrieved from https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/04/upshot/the-right-to-know-that-an-operation-is-next-to-useless.html?_r=0.
  16. Maxmen, A. (2011, July 6). Nutrition advice: The vitamin D-lemma. Retrieved from http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110706/full/475023a.html.
  17. McKee, M. (2014, October 2). The Power of Single-Person Medical Experiments. Retrieved from http://discovermagazine.com/2014/nov/17-singled-out.
  18. McMaster University. (2016). Gordon Guyatt. Retrieved from http://fhs.mcmaster.ca/ceb/faculty_member_guyatt.htm.
  19. Neale, T. (2009, December 12). Doctor’s Orders: Practicing Evidence-Based Medicine Is a Challenge. Retrieved from http://www.medpagetoday.com/practicemanagement/practicemanagement/17486.
  20. Nolan, D. (2011, December 31). Mac’s Dr. Guyatt to enter Order of Canada. Retrieved from http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2227923-mac-s-dr-guyatt-to-enter-order-of-canada/.
  21. O’Dowd, A. (2016, July 21). Exercise could be as effective as surgery for knee damage. Retrieved from https://www.onmedica.com/newsArticle.aspx?id=e13a0a94-5e96-43b9-86b7-7de237630beb.
  22. Palmer, K. & Guyatt, G. (2014, December 16). New funding model a leap of faith for Canadian hospitals. Retrieved from http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/why-new-funding-model-a-leap-of-faith-for-canadian-hospitals/article22100796/.
  23. Park, A. (2012, February 7). No Clots in Coach? Debunking ‘Economy Class Syndrome’. Retrieved from http://healthland.time.com/2012/02/07/no-clots-in-coach-debunking-economy-class-syndrome/.
  24. Picard, A. (2015, May 25). David Sackett: The father of evidence-based medicine. Retrieved from http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/health/david-sackett-the-father-of-evidence-based-medicine/article24607930/.
  25. Priest, L. (2012, June 17). What you should know about doctors and self-referral fees. Retrieved from http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/ask-a-health-expert/what-you-should-know-about-doctors-and-self-referral-fees/article4267688/.
  26. Rege, A. (2015, August 5). Why medically unnecessary surgeries still happen. Retrieved from http://www.beckershospitalreview.com/population-health/why-medically-unnecessary-surgeries-still-happen.html.
  27. Science Daily. (2016, October 26). Ultrasound after tibial fracture surgery does not speed up healing or improve function. Retrieved from https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/10/161026141643.htm.
  28. Spears, T. (2016, July 7). Agriculture Canada challenged WHO’s cancer warnings on meat: newly-released documents. Retrieved from http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/agriculture-canada-challenged-whos-cancer-warnings-on-meat-according-to-newly-released-documents.
  29. Tomsic, M. (2015, February 10). Dying. It’s Tough To Discuss, But Doesn’t Have To Be. Retrieved from http://wfae.org/post/dying-its-tough-discuss-doesnt-have-be.
  30. Webometrics. (2010). 1040 Highly Cited Researchers (h>100) according to their Google Scholar Citations public profiles. Retrieved from http://www.webometrics.info/en/node/58.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Distinguished University Professor, Health Research Methods, Evidence and Impact, McMaster University.

[2] Individual Publication Date: May 8, 2017 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-two; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2017 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] B.Sc., University of Toronto; M.D., General Internist, McMaster University Medical School; M.Sc., Design, Management, and Evaluation, McMaster University.

[4] Credit: McMaster University.

[5] Clarity Research. (2016). Clinical Advances Through Research and Information Translation. Retrieved from http://www.clarityresearch.ca/gordon-guyatt/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Two) [Online].May 2017; 14(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-two.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, May 8). An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Two). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-two.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A, May. 2017. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-two>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-two.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A (May 2017). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-two.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 14.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-two>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 14.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-two.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 14.A (2017):May. 2017. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-two>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part Two) [Internet]. (2017, May; 14(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-two.

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© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2017-05-01

An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part One)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 14.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Ten)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: May 1, 2017

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,922

ISSN 2369-6885

Gordon Guyatt

Abstract

An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC. He discusses: his geographic, cultural, and linguistic personal and familial background; influence on development; influences and pivotal moments in major cross-sections of early life; interests in epidemiology and biostatistics; the importance of mentors for research; tasks and responsibilities as the Distinguished University Professor in the Department of Health Research Methods, Evidence and Impact at McMaster University; and what informs pedagogy.

Keywords: biostatistics, epidemiology, Gordon Guyatt, McMaster University, Mentor.

An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part One)[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been edited for clarity and readability.*

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: In terms of geography, culture, and language, where does your personal and familial background reside?

Professor Gordan Guyatt: [Laughing] My dad is a Canadian of 5 or 6 generations. Our family moved to an area around Hamilton called Binbrook in the 1820s. They had a farm. The road that runs by the farm is called Guyatt road because they had the farm there. Those Guyatts were farmers, and the Guyatts in the region are descended in this region from them. My mother was a Czech Jew, who grew up in a little village in what is now the Czech Republic. Eventually, she moved to Prague.

She was at Prague when Hitler gained control of the Czech Republic. She ended up in a concentration camp with an extensive family. Everyone died in the Death Camps. Except her mother and her, they escaped to North America. She married a British soldier, who drove a tank into Belson. She was there at the end of the war. Upon arrival to Canada, they broke up. She met my dad in Canada. He came from an extremely different background. They managed to meet and stay together. They lived in Hamilton. I was born there. I grew up there. Now, I am still here.

2. Jacobsen: How did this influence development?

Guyatt: Through my mother’s background, I have a strong social conscience. I want to contribute as much as possible to society. I strongly identify with the less fortunate. It led to firm left-wing politics. I ran for the NDP 4 times, federally. I mercifully lost on each occasion. I have been active in politics. I started a group called the Medical Reform Group, which has been superseded by Canadian Doctors for Medicare.

I have a deep commitment for equitable, high-quality medical care for all Canadians without restrictions on the ability to pay. My academic career links with the political career. Even if you take the academic career alone, there are strong elements of belief in social cohesiveness and patients getting what they want rather than what doctors think patients want.

 3. Jacobsen: What about influences and pivotal moments in major cross-sections of early life including kindergarten, elementary school, junior high school, high school, undergraduate, and graduate studies?

Guyatt: [Laughing] Sadly, my memory of early life is sketchy. My mom said some things that influenced me. Her attitude: it would happen to the Jews again. However, she said, “Not to my kids.” My dad was from a strong Baptist family. His dad was a doctor, but qualified as a Baptist minister. He left ministerial work and became a doctor. He was a deacon on the Baptist church. It might have contributed to my values. My mother went to the Baptist church.

However, at some level, her heart was not there. She grew up as a Jew in Czechoslovakia. She went along with my dad’s world. Yet she was skeptical about his perspectives on the world. Baptists did not like drinking, dancing, or singing. They were puritanical. Also, my father was Right-wing. He had passionate Right-wing feelings. My negative characterization of some Right-wing folks is an upbringing of privilege, but even so, they manage to feel hard-done by.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Guyatt: [Laughing] I remember dad walking into the house every July for a few years, and saying, “For the rest of the year, I will be working for the government.” Because he was in the 50%+ percent tax bracket. He felt resentful. My mom said, “Well, that’s not the only way to look at the world.” I think skepticism, but some positive things from dad too. My dad is an extremely self-disciplined individual. On a 1-100, he is 99.5 on the self-discipline scale. He was model of true self-discipline. I turned out very self-disciplined.

Also, he loved the English language and precision in speech. As an academic, it helped me. Those are specific events, but streams of influence from childhood too. Then a clear  influence, when I was a resident in internal medicine, I loved the academic environment. I loved to teach. However, I had no interest in research. The chair of the department of medicine, who was a leader  in thrombosis research, Jack Hirsh, had a mission. He took bright young people and turned them into researchers.

He called me to his office. I described personal plans. He said, “Gordon, that’s fine, for now, but, in ten years, you’ll be bored. So, you should really think about research.” I knew one thing. I had zero interest in basic research. I was obedient and understood, “If the boss tells me, then I will do it.” I spent the second year of sub-specialty training in clinical epidemiology. Someone picked up: I am a bright guy. They thought, “We have this bright guy. Let’s lead them in the directions preferred by us.”

Hirsh sent me to the chair of the Department in Clinical Epidemiology, Peter Tugwell. Peter did a preliminary interview. This was not the interview for the program. He guided me, in the right direction. He said, “How much of your time in the long run do you want to be spending on research?” At the time, the real answer was zero. However, that answer would have been rude. I said, “25%.” He looked concerned and said, “Oh, well, if you say that in the interview, they won’t let you into the program.”

I went into the interview for the program. This time, I said, “50%.” I was allowed into the program. Lo and behold, I found, “This is great stuff! This is really interesting!” As I progressed through the program, I did not know, but, as it turned out, I am great at research. It is interesting. The more I went on, the more exciting it became. Then the same theme, I was directed. I continued to think, “I am a real doctor.” I wanted to be a real doctor. So I am with the Department of Medicine, not this Department of Clinical Epidemiology.

For some reason, the chair of Medicine, and the chair of Clinical Epidemiology, wanted my primary appointment in clinical epidemiology. I said, “Okay, I’m a real doctor. But if you want that as my primary appointment with these eggheads, then I’ll do it.” Quickly, in my training, I picked this up. Then I found myself in the best department in the world for this area, where I stumbled into it.  I was surrounded by brilliant people.

Those who taught me had a profound belief in collegiality and caring about one another, and mentoring junior people. Here I found myself not only doing interesting stuff, but with the world’s greatest mentors. Jack Hirsh continued to mentor me, and Dave Sackett, who was probably one of the leading lights. Those guys were mentors for me, but I had other senior folks in the department. They helped me too.

Now, I am in this spectacular environment. Now, I start writing grants and – lo and behold – the grants earn funding. I realized, “I’m surrounded by all of these smart people, and I find that I’m in the same league, and I actually talk to these people as equals and sometimes come up with ideas now.” Then over the next few years, I found, “Wow! This is exciting and great stuff, and I’m good at it.” There is the story of personal evolution.

4. Jacobsen: Two questions come from that. One has to do with epidemiology, biostatistics, and medicine. The medicine one as the natural inclination for you. The epidemiology and biostatistics, at least within research, as an unwilling participant. Any other interest in those disciplines – biostatistics, epidemiology?

Guyatt: No, as an undergraduate, I took the usual pathetic statistics course, which, as far as I can tell, could not be better designed to make people think that statistics is boring and uninteresting. It had the natural effect on me. As it turns out, another thing was peculiar about in contrast to other doctors about me. I never did science training. I never did biology or chemistry. Any of it. As it turns out, there was one medical school in the country for people without a science background: McMaster University. So I got into McMaster without a science background.

Once in the program, I was interested in physiologic reasoning. I went into internal medicine because it is the most interesting and challenging branch of medicine. Nothing specific to epidemiology or biostatistics, but an interest in an academic approach. This was the reason for the interest in an academic environment and in being an academic teacher. A major interest in an academic approach to the practice of medicine, which is clinical epidemiology. Clinical epidemiology, and making the medicine practical, became evidence-based medicine (EBM).

5. Jacobsen: In the previous responses, you talked about mentors. What is the importance of mentors for research – especially if they didn’t even know they had an interest or a talent in it?

Guyatt: Oh! Crucial, these folks directed me. I would never would have done these things myself. My colleague David Sackett wrote a book about mentorship. He talked about the importance of it, and the aspects of a good mentor. Dave died 2 years ago. The Journal of Clinical Epidemiology produced a series with one section of a recent issue was a review of Sackett’s life. He mentored me. He mentored tons of people. They were nice enough to ask me to do it.

A big aspect is Dave’s brilliance as a mentor. He influenced so many people. I am enormously lucky for the mentorship. It was crucial. If you are left alone, it is much more difficult. If you have the right mentorship environment, even somebody on the mediocre side, you can do well with the right support.

6. Jacobsen: You work as the Distinguished University Professor in the Department of Health Research Methods, Evidence and Impact.[5] What tasks and responsibilities come with these positions?

Guyatt: Basically, they let me do what I want. Fortunately, my preferred work keeps with the university’s mission. I do enough clinical work to stay competent. I teach at the undergraduate, residency, and post-graduate levels. I do a lot of research. For me, a wonderful marriage of research and teaching responsibilities. In the last decade, under research and teaching responsibilities, I supervise 5 or 6 PhDs at any point in time. I get credit for, as my major education credit, supervising the PhDs, but the PhDs are the ones doing research for us.

Again, I have been extremely fortunate in a series of ways from the beginning to the end in my academic career. Now, I work with young people. I enjoy it. I enjoy getting people connected. So I have educational responsibilities, which are teaching undergraduate, and some teaching at the graduate level. My main educational activity is supervising these senior trainees. You need research associated with it. By university standards, I am extremely productive, where it counts. Since I am productive, I feel that’s why they let me work on what I want.

7. Jacobsen: What informs pedagogy for you?

Guyatt: In terms of communicating concepts: clarity, keeping things as simple as possible, using examples of everything, using paradigmatic or extreme examples to illustrate concepts, ensuring that people really understand the idea, and then gradually introducing increased levels of sophistication. Tons of feedback for people, always trying to keep it as positive as possible, while making it clear where improvements are needed, creating a facilitative environment of learning where the people feel supported and valued. They get enough positive reinforcement to them keep them going while conveying a top priority on rigour and doing work at the highest possible level.

References

  1. Bennett, K. (2014, October 31). New hospital funding model ‘a shot in the dark,’ McMaster study says. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/new-hospital-funding-model-a-shot-in-the-dark-mcmaster-study-says-1.2817321.
  2. Blackwell, T. (2015, February 1). World Health Organization’s advice based on weak evidence, Canadian-led study says. Retrieved from http://news.nationalpost.com/health/world-health-organizations-advice-extremely-untrustworthy-and-not-evidence-based-study.
  3. Branswell, H. (2014, January 30). You should be avoiding these products on drug-store shelves. Retrieved from http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/health/you-should-be-avoiding-these-products-on-drug-store-shelves/article16606013/?page=all.
  4. Canadian News Wire. (2015, October 8). The Canadian Medical Hall of Fame announces 2016 inductees. Retrieved from http://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/the-canadian-medical-hall-of-fame-announces-2016-inductees-531287111.html.
  5. Cassar, V. & Bezzina, F. (2015, March 25). The evidence is clear. Retrieved from http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20150325/life-features/The-evidence-is-clear.561338.
  6. Clarity Research. (2016). Clinical Advances Through Research and Information Translation. Retrieved from http://www.clarityresearch.ca/gordon-guyatt/.
  7. Craggs, S. (2015, July 21). We can actually win this one, Tom Mulcair tells Hamilton crowd. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/we-can-actually-win-this-one-tom-mulcair-tells-hamilton-crowd-1.3162688.
  8. Escott, S. (2013, December 2). Mac professor named top health researcher. Retrieved from http://www.thespec.com/news-story/4249292-mac-professor-named-top-health-researcher/.
  9. Feise, R. & Cooperstein, R. (2014, February 1). Putting the Patient First. Retrieved from http://www.dynamicchiropractic.com/mpacms/dc/article.php?id=56855.
  10. Frketich, J. (2016, July 8). 63 McMaster University investigators say health research funding is flawed. Retrieved from http://www.thespec.com/news-story/6759872-63-mcmaster-university-investigators-say-health-research-funding-is-flawed/.
  11. Helsingin yliopisto. (2017, March 23). Clot or bleeding? Anticoagulants walk the line between two risks. Retrieved from https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/03/170323083909.htm.
  12. Hopper, T. (2012, August 24). You’re pregnant, now sign this petition: Group slams Ontario doctors’ ‘coercive’ tactics to fight cutbacks. Retrieved from http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/youre-pregnant-now-sign-this-petition-group-criticizes-doctors-who-encourage-patients-to-sign-anti-cutbacks-letter.
  13. Kerr, T. (2011, May 30). Thomas Kerr: Insite has science on its side. Retrieved from http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/thomas-kerr-vancouvers-insite-clinic-has-been-a-resounding-success.
  14. Kirkey, S. (2015, October 29). WHO gets it wrong again: As with SARS and H1N1, its processed-meat edict went too far. Retrieved from http://news.nationalpost.com/health/is-whos-smackdown-of-processed-meat-a-considerable-overcall-or-just-informing-the-public-of-health-risks.
  15. Kolata, G. (2016, August 3). Why ‘Useless’ Surgery Is Still Popular. Retrieved from https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/04/upshot/the-right-to-know-that-an-operation-is-next-to-useless.html?_r=0.
  16. Maxmen, A. (2011, July 6). Nutrition advice: The vitamin D-lemma. Retrieved from http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110706/full/475023a.html.
  17. McKee, M. (2014, October 2). The Power of Single-Person Medical Experiments. Retrieved from http://discovermagazine.com/2014/nov/17-singled-out.
  18. McMaster University. (2016). Gordon Guyatt. Retrieved from http://fhs.mcmaster.ca/ceb/faculty_member_guyatt.htm.
  19. Neale, T. (2009, December 12). Doctor’s Orders: Practicing Evidence-Based Medicine Is a Challenge. Retrieved from http://www.medpagetoday.com/practicemanagement/practicemanagement/17486.
  20. Nolan, D. (2011, December 31). Mac’s Dr. Guyatt to enter Order of Canada. Retrieved from http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2227923-mac-s-dr-guyatt-to-enter-order-of-canada/.
  21. O’Dowd, A. (2016, July 21). Exercise could be as effective as surgery for knee damage. Retrieved from https://www.onmedica.com/newsArticle.aspx?id=e13a0a94-5e96-43b9-86b7-7de237630beb.
  22. Palmer, K. & Guyatt, G. (2014, December 16). New funding model a leap of faith for Canadian hospitals. Retrieved from http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/why-new-funding-model-a-leap-of-faith-for-canadian-hospitals/article22100796/.
  23. Park, A. (2012, February 7). No Clots in Coach? Debunking ‘Economy Class Syndrome’. Retrieved from http://healthland.time.com/2012/02/07/no-clots-in-coach-debunking-economy-class-syndrome/.
  24. Picard, A. (2015, May 25). David Sackett: The father of evidence-based medicine. Retrieved from http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/health/david-sackett-the-father-of-evidence-based-medicine/article24607930/.
  25. Priest, L. (2012, June 17). What you should know about doctors and self-referral fees. Retrieved from http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/ask-a-health-expert/what-you-should-know-about-doctors-and-self-referral-fees/article4267688/.
  26. Rege, A. (2015, August 5). Why medically unnecessary surgeries still happen. Retrieved from http://www.beckershospitalreview.com/population-health/why-medically-unnecessary-surgeries-still-happen.html.
  27. Science Daily. (2016, October 26). Ultrasound after tibial fracture surgery does not speed up healing or improve function. Retrieved from https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/10/161026141643.htm.
  28. Spears, T. (2016, July 7). Agriculture Canada challenged WHO’s cancer warnings on meat: newly-released documents. Retrieved from http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/agriculture-canada-challenged-whos-cancer-warnings-on-meat-according-to-newly-released-documents.
  29. Tomsic, M. (2015, February 10). Dying. It’s Tough To Discuss, But Doesn’t Have To Be. Retrieved from http://wfae.org/post/dying-its-tough-discuss-doesnt-have-be.
  30. Webometrics. (2010). 1040 Highly Cited Researchers (h>100) according to their Google Scholar Citations public profiles. Retrieved from http://www.webometrics.info/en/node/58.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Distinguished University Professor, Health Research Methods, Evidence and Impact, McMaster University.

[2] Individual Publication Date: May 1, 2017 at www.in-sightjournal.com; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2017 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] B.Sc., University of Toronto; M.D., General Internist, McMaster University Medical School; M.Sc., Design, Management, and Evaluation, McMaster University.

[4] Courtesy of Gordan Guyatt.

[5] McMaster University. (2016). Gordon Guyatt. Retrieved from http://fhs.mcmaster.ca/ceb/faculty_member_guyatt.htm.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part One) [Online].May 2017; 14(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-one.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, May 1). An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part One). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-one.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A, May. 2017. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-one>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-one.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 14.A (May 2017). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-one.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 14.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-one>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 14.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-one.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 14.A (2017):May. 2017. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-one>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Distinguished University Professor Gordon Guyatt, OC, FRSC (Part One) [Internet]. (2017, May; 14(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-university-professor-gordon-guyatt-oc-frsc-part-one.

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Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2017-04-22

An Interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA (Part Four)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 13.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Nine)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: April 22, 2017

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,990

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

An interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA. He discusses: status of EHN; tasks and responsibilities as the national director; building on successes; greatest emotional struggle in life; the dual-life with recovery and business; advice for those struggling; the total suite of care for EHN; the feeling of being a practitioner one-on-one or in groups; general philosophy; political philosophy; social philosophy; economic philosophy; their interrelationships; upcoming collaborative projects; upcoming solo projects; recommended authors; and concluding feelings and thoughts.

Keywords: Edgewood Health Clinics Network, Patrick Zierten, philosophy, recovery.

An Interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA: Program Coordinator, Edgewood Health Clinics; Ex-National Executive Director, Edgewood Health Clinics Network (Part Four)[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been edited for clarity and readability.*

44. You had an idea. You followed through with it, and accomplished it – admirable. This culminated in the creation of Edgewood Vancouver. EDGEWOOD Alumni INSITE in Vancouver (2012), in part, states:

Patrick Zierten, EDGEWOOD Vancouver’s Program Director, is a happy man. “When we opened up the new office in Vancouver, one of my priorities was to bring Insite to Vancouver. Not the Insite as developed for family members living with an addicted loved one, but one specifically designed for individuals in recovery from substance dependence.”…”I met with Dale MacIntyre, EDGEWOOD’s Family Program Supervisor, and we went to work revising some of the components of the program so that it was more applicable for folks in recovery.[5]

What is the current status for the development of EHN now?

The development of this program for EHN. It’s no longer called the INSITE program. We’ve developed a number of adjunct programs to respond to the needs of people later in recovery. That part I talked about being a better human being and being in better relationships, and that’s what that program was develop for. We run workshops and relationships. We run workshops on boundary development. We run workshops on couples in recovery. It’s not one specific program. It’s a bunch of specific programs that we broke off into. Because I think as a person in recovery, we’re learning skills that we should have learned a long, long time ago. So, that’s where Edgewood health network has embraced the continuum of care, that doesn’t necessarily mean a treatment, but it could be a number of processes along this continuum.

45. It noted happiness as the main emotion at the outset of the article in description of the Vancouver facility’s foundation. What is the emotion now – especially with additional tasks and responsibilities as the national director?

I’d say happy. That’s all I can say. I am happy about what I’ve been doing, and I kind of went astray, and I know I’m called to do what I’m supposed to do here. I love the people I work with. They are passionate about what they do. I got grandkids man! I have a new wife. I’ve been with her for 17 years.

Congratulations.

Thank you.

46. Obviously, success tends to build on sets of achievements. The more one gets, the easier things tend to get – if built on the previous foundation, like building the foundation, then the indoor parking and the first floor, and then the subsequent floors in a high-rise building, for instance. In terms of staff, resources, public, and families with substance abuser support, and others, what seem like the sources of the success for Edgewood as a whole? For something to exist this long, in a society that does have drug problems, it performs a core service for the public and the individuals in the families.

Using the analogy of the foundation, the foundation of the EHN is passion to help the suffering addict, to recognize that these people are sick, not that they shouldn’t be accountable for their disease, but that they need help, and developing a staff that has that same passion. If you’ve got the right people with the same passion, and put them in a building, you’re going to get recovery. Then, as we started to look at the skills of the people we’ve brought on board, we say, “How can we better utilize their skill sets to develop programs that can help them with their passion?” Maybe, it is the INSITE program. Maybe, it is the intensive outpatient program. Maybe, it is one-on-one counselling. Maybe, it is going to this workshop for EMDR. So, you start to develop your people and programming around the assets of your people, and it’s just a matter of opening the door and they will come. It’s rather simplistic, but that’s the concept.

Field of Dreams always has use.

(Laugh)

(Laugh)

47. In the same article, EDGEWOOD Alumni INSITE in Vancouver (2012), you touched on personal struggles, and in this interview. What seems like the greatest emotional struggle in personal life?

The first thing that comes to mind when you ask that question is struggling with figuring out who I was and not being judgmental. Not labelling it as good or bad. I grew up in a life where it was either good or bad. I had to get out of that thought process. And even to this day, I do not think of things in terms of good or bad. Some things get me what I wish want. Some things don’t get me what I want. Some things are just the way they are. That’s been helpful in dealing with human beings. They’re human beings with different struggles and different situations. That’s my Catholic tradition. The Catholic tradition puts you in two categories: good or bad. I had to shake that. That was a huge piece for me.

I had always thought of myself as good or bad, because of my addiction. When you have a belief system, you will search for evidence that supports that belief system. If I was bad, I’d search for evidence that I was bad. I did behaviors that supported that belief system. So, you get into that stupid trap. I had to flip everything upside down. I simply need to forgive and not judge at all.  I had to take judgment out of the whole scheme of things. That’s what first comes out for me on that question.

48. You mentioned a dual-life with recovery and business. At the same time, my general sense from you. They’re not really separate.

If I look at my recent career choice, I can see how I let my ego get the best of me. The money sounded good. The title sounded good. The prestige was kind of cool. It really resonated with my ego when I realized I was not up to the task and was miserable. I didn’t say, “You stupid idiot. I can’t believe you listened to your old ego, and ended up down this stupid path, and now you’re miserable.” I just said, “Wow, what the heck happened here?”

There wasn’t a judgment there. And that helped me. That, I think, allowed me or gave me permission to have the conversation with my boss. Whereas before, I would have said, “I can’t believe you made this choice. Now, you’re stuck with it.” I can’t let anyone know that I might have made a bad decision. Or I allowed myself to do something that isn’t true to me. My old self would never have allowed that. The new self that is not judgmental said, “Man, you did it again!”

(Laugh)

You laugh at yourself. That gave me the courage to have the conversation.

49. Any advice for those that continue to struggle with their own, similar, issues and concerns?

Don’t take yourself so seriously. It’s simple advice. How do you take yourself less seriously? Recognize, and learn to smell the roses. Stop and breathe the air. Hang around with a bunch of folks that are trying to do the same thing. That, to me, is crucial. That you hang around with people that’re trying to do the same thing as me because trying to do it on my own I’m going to go astray.  My experience is that you’d go into your default patterns. So, I have tried to be a teacher in terms of trying to smell the roses.

Find those with a common cause.

Yes! That’s what community is about. That was going to be one of my university papers was the importance of community, and how we’ve drifted away from community, and there’s a great book called The Disappearance of Bowling. It’s a guy who writes about how we used to be so community-minded a 100 years ago. Bowling was the largest sport, participant sport in North America for years back in the 60s and 70s. What he was getting at is the essence of community, we don’t have clubs anymore. Church attendance is declining dramatically. Those types of community. They’re all disappearing.

And what does that do for us as human beings, we’re built to be, and designed to be, in community. Technology is robbing us of that. The social network is robbing us of that. It is creating pseudo-communities, but we’re really fooling ourselves because we’re not really being in community when we’re talking to somebody on Facetime or Skype.

This is what I’m afraid of is today’s kids. They will just assume that this is community. I’ve seen it. I’m broad-brushing, so I’m generalizing. You go into a restaurant and they’re texting while they’re eating dinner. It may be not applicable to this segment, but what about the next generation, which grows up thinking that facebook and Tweeting, which is common place even today, but could be even more common place in the future. Then it’s not going to a microcosm. It’s going to be a macrocosm.

There’s a book by Isaac Asimov or Bradbury I can’t remember. He talks about this futuristic state where these people live on a planet, and there are only 800 people on the planet, and the rest are robots and social networks. I remember this is how mankind had evolved. That they lived in these homes, and the next nearest relative might be 7,000 miles away, but they communicated in a virtual reality as if they were sitting in their dining room talking to the other human being. And robots were doing everything. There were androids.

And procreation was you put your sperm in a cup, and send the egg, and they fertilize it in some manufacturing company, and voila! You have a child. Is that what we’re headed for in 3,000 years? It’d be interesting.

One of things I’ve become very comfortable with in life is, I don’t know. Everything, matter of fact I know very little. It’s not worth debating because it’s too far in the future to know. And if I don’t know something, I credit God for it. God provides me stability and comfort in that I don’t know everything, which is tough thing for a lot of people.

50. I want to explore some of the processes – again, without breach of confidentiality or dissemination of sensitive information – for “inpatient and outpatient addiction treatment programs” through Edgewood Health Network Inc.[6] Let’s begin, some of the reasons for those with an interest in this program of care, or others in fact, might lie in getting “your family back with a treatment program” with comprehensive focus on “physical, mental, emotional and spiritual components, as well as family, and the community system.”[7] EHN focuses on individuated recovery paths via personalized treatment.

According to the EHN website, in What You Should Need Know (2016), patient time taken for treatment varies, especially with factors such as “needs, issues, resources and strengths.”[8] You have the sole “only national network of adult inpatient and outpatient treatment services across the country, 24/7 help, and an open-source assessment tool, we provide top-tier, customized paths for every one of our patients,” too.[9]

EHN considers addiction a family disease.[10] EHN gives support services for families too. This exists alongside the other support services such as Aftercare, or Continuum of Care. How do these programs knit together into one blanket for EHNs total suite of care?

We’re providing a number of entry points into treatment. Once you get into that entry point, then there’s a program that will be developed to what your needs are, and what you’re willing to do. Those might include the family. They might not include the family. They might include the spouse. They might not include the spouse. It might include abstinence. It might not include abstinence, but the continuum will always try to bring you towards abstinence. I can walk alongside the client for three or four years before they enter an inpatient situation, and they actually start to get some sobriety. I might walk alongside them for 3 or 4 more years in one-on-one counselling. That process can be years long.

But there’s entry and access point. So I might see him for a while, and then they leave, and then they re-enter treatment again. Then we have another plan that they’d work with, that might not be successful, or not, and then they re-enter again. There are a number of entry point, but once you get into the entry point. There’s a program designed specifically for you.

51. These remain important details, and overviews, of the EHN provisions. Nonetheless, this can leave questions. How does this feel as a practitioner going through these processes with patients – one-on-one or in group?

It’s evolved. It’s changed. I got extremely involved in the emotional situation of the individual. There was a lot of transference. After a while, I realized I was working too hard for the client because I wanted to relieve my own personal anxiety. So if I make you feel better, I won’t feel so bad. It’s really self-motivated, or selfish. It’s not based on your wish for this person to get better. What I realized is that I was starting to get symptoms of burnout: irritability, restlessness, sleeplessness, bad dreams, etc.

Over time, I have been able to develop a ‘callous’, where I can hear the story and don’t get emotionally reactive to it, as much. There’s still some stories I hear and go, “Holy smokes.” – especially when there’s children involved, that activates me. Or if there’s abuse of women, I get extremely activated. That really gets me charged, but the rest of it. I have a good callous.

We don’t like to talk about what we do often in the office. We develop this black humor that you hear in emergency rooms, fireman and EMT workers. These people that manage the trauma they experience by developing this black humor. It’s not from a place of insensitivity or maliciousness. It’s from a place of “I need to do this in order to protect myself. And so, that kind of works here.” Eventually, you work past the need for black humor. You just get into a state where you’re sort of content with the information that you don’t need to be reactive. You’re not disconnected from the client from an empathetic perspective, but you’re entirely embroiled in the individual’s turmoil.

52. You noted this at the outset. What general philosophy seems the most correct to you? 

For me, in life: be kind.

53. What political philosophy seems the most correct to you?

I’m a socialist by nature.

(Laugh)

Not that it makes sense necessarily, but I don’t know. Anarchy is a good one too. I don’t know if there’s a particular political system. I’m a Bernie Sanders guy.

54. What social philosophy seems the most correct to you?

That goes back to general philosophy in the old adage: be kind and kindness will come back. Karma.

55. What economic philosophy seems the most correct to you?

It’s the old adage: eat what you kill. Make a living, but don’t be extravagant. Provide for your needs, but not for your wants.

56. What aesthetic philosophy seems the most correct to you?

Nature.

57. What interrelates these philosophies?

Love.

58. Any upcoming collaborative projects?

No, not at this point, I’ve got nothing on hand. I’m just happy settling back into my old routine.

59. Any upcoming solo projects?

No, I think – solo projects for me is thinking about retirement and what I want to do, and getting close to that, but do I want to be entirely retired. I want to take things a little easier. I’m at the end of life. That’s definitely huge on my mind. It’s funny how that happens. Of course, meaning and purpose become very important, and relationships become very important at this point in my life. How do I enhance those things until I die?

60. Any recommended authors?

Richard Rohr, that’s who I’m into right now. He’s a Franciscan monk. He writes a book called Breathing Under Water and Falling Upward. He’s got some lovely stuff on YouTube. John O’Donahue. Another guy I love, unfortunately, he’s dead. He was an Irish priest. He is kind of a Catholic pagan, and a poet. He’s a lovely, lovely, lovely man. Those are the first ones that popped into my head at the top of my head.

61. Any feelings or thoughts in conclusion?

No! Other than great gratitude for you even to consider me worth having a conversation with. I am really honored that you’re—even the fact that—

And your work!

(Laugh)

And you’re a lovely guy yourself by the way. I’m really intrigued by your intelligence, with your honesty through some of this (Parts 1 through 4 abridged – Ed.). I felt quite honored and grateful for this experience. Thank you for considering me.

Thank you for your time, Mr. Zierten.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Program Coordinator, Edgewood Health Clinics; Ex-National Executive Director, Edgewood Health Clinics Network.

[2] Individual Publication Date: April 22, 2017 at https://in-sightjournal.com/2017/04/22/an-interview-with-patrick-zierten-emba-ma-part-four/; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2017 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] MA (1997-2002), Theology, The University of British Columbia; EMBA (1990-1991), Queen’s University.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA.

[5] EDGEWOOD Alumni INSITE in Vancouver (2012), in full, states:

Patrick Zierten, EDGEWOOD Vancouver’s Program Director, is a happy man. “When we opened up the new office in Vancouver, one of my priorities was to bring Insite to Vancouver. Not the Insite as developed for family members living with an addicted loved one, but one specifically designed for individuals in recovery from substance dependence.”

He goes on to describe the plans he implemented in Vancouver, “I met with Dale MacIntyre, EDGEWOOD’s Family Program Supervisor, and we went to work revising some of the components of the program so that it was more applicable for folks in recovery. Dale was kind enough to come over to Vancouver and he ran our first INSITE Program in October 2010. We now hold an INSITE Program once every three months.” Patrick talks of his own experience with INSITE.

“Fifteen years ago, I was having all kinds of problems in my recovery. I was complacent, unhappy, lacked meaning and purpose and my relationship life was in shambles. I thought I was about ready to relapse. I didn’t know what to do until a good friend of mine suggested I go to this “… INSITE program over at Edgewood, in Nanaimo”. 

“I really didn’t want to go but I was at one of those places where if things didn’t change I thought I was going to go crazy. I had no idea what to expect. Boy, was I more than pleasantly surprise!  It literally transformed my recovery process. I realized that being in recovery was not just about staying sober one day at a time, it meant that I had to change how I responded to people, how to draw boundaries and how to take care of myself.”

The Alumni INSITE program as offered in Vancouver, is designed specifically for the person with a year of substance dependence recovery, who is facing ever-increasing challenges in their relationships with others. Much of the curriculum is taken from the original Insite program but is modified to deal more specifically with early recovery relationship issues.

“The wonderful thing about this program is that many of our Alumni INSITE graduates have gone on to our INSITE Aftercare group. We have two of our original graduates that still attend Insite Aftercare.”

Zierten, P. (2012). EDGEWOOD Alumni INSITE in Vancouver. Retrieved from http://docplayer.net/5470680-For-those-seeking-help-for-addiction-access-to-more-professional.html.

[6] Edgewood Health Network Inc.. (2016). Edgewood Health Network Inc.. Retrieved from http://edgewoodhealthnetwork.com/.

[7] Edgewood Health Network Inc.. (2016). Fine Your Path To Recovery. Retrieved from http://edgewoodhealthnetwork.com/.

[8] Edgewood Health Network Inc.. (2016). What You Need To Know. Retrieved from http://edgewoodhealthnetwork.com/#!treatment-plan.

[9] Edgewood Health Network Inc.. (2016). What You Need To Know. Retrieved from http://edgewoodhealthnetwork.com/#!treatment-plan.

[10] Family Programs and Support (2016) states:

Addiction is a family disease because many family members are profoundly impacted by the behaviour of an addicted loved one. The best way for family members to support their loved one’s treatment and to take care of themselves is to undertake their own recovery process.

The Edgewood Health Network encourages family members to undertake their own path of recovery through our family programs. We provide a facilitated group process that offers education about addiction and its impact on relationships. It’s a chance for family members to learn ways that will change destructive relationship patterns. If you have been hurt by someone else’s addiction or wish to improve your relationships, our family programs are for you.

Edgewood Health Network Inc.. (2016). Family Programs and Support. Retrieved from http://edgewoodhealthnetwork.com/#!family-support-programs.

Bibliography

Edgewood Health Network Inc. (2016). Edgewood Health Network Inc. Retrieved from http://edgewoodhealthnetwork.com/#.

Jack Hirose & Associates, Inc. (2016). Patrick Zierten, EMBA, M.A.. Retrieved from http://www.jackhirose.com/speaker/patrick-zierten-emba-m-a/.

LinkedIn. (2016). patrick zierten. Retrieved from https://ca.linkedin.com/in/patrick-zierten-8022637.

Media Awareness Project. (2016). Drug Forum A Success. Retrieved from http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v05/n1697/a05.html?1818.

Mirus Rehabilitation Care Centre. (2016). Meet the North York Team. Retrieved from http://www.mirusrehabcare.com/about-our-addiction-treatment-center.html.

The Bible: New International Version. (2017). Matthew 7:12. Retrieved from https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+7%3A12.

The Globe and Mail. (2013, September 24). John Cleese explains why he loves Canada. Retrieved from https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=john+cleese+on+canada&ei=UTF-8&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-003.

The Rave. (2005, November 11). CN BC: Community Discussion Focuses On Drug-Use Prevention. Retrieved from http://www.rave.ca/en/news_info/28877/all/.

Zierten, P. (2012). EDGEWOOD Alumni INSITE in Vancouver. Retrieved from http://docplayer.net/5470680-For-those-seeking-help-for-addiction-access-to-more-professional.html.

Zierten, P. (2011, September 1). Motivated to Change but Not Ready for Residential Inpatient. Retrieved from http://www.edgewood.ca/assets/uploads/enews_summerfall2011_155.pdf.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA (Part Four) [Online].April 2017; 13(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patrick-zierten-emba-ma-part-four.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, April 22). An Interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA (Part Four). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patrick-zierten-emba-ma-part-four.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA (Part Four). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A, April. 2017. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patrick-zierten-emba-ma-part-four>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patrick-zierten-emba-ma-part-four.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A (April 2017). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patrick-zierten-emba-ma-part-four.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA (Part Four)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 13.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patrick-zierten-emba-ma-part-four>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA (Part Four)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 13.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patrick-zierten-emba-ma-part-four.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 13.A (2017):April. 2017. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patrick-zierten-emba-ma-part-four>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA (Part Four) [Internet]. (2017, April; 13(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patrick-zierten-emba-ma-part-four.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2017-04-15

An Interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA (Part Three)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 13.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Nine)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: April 15, 2017

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 4,237

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

An interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA. He discusses: tasks and responsibility in the service sector; some things never leaving; varied positions helping with work professional/career capacities; the most meaningful experiences; tasks and responsibilities with work at Edgewood Health Network and Edgewood Vancouver Addiction Services; mirrored experiences with actors; Stanislovsky and transference; Vilayanur Subramanian Ramachandran and the mirror neuron system; Motivated to Change but Not Ready for Residential Inpatient; report on the discussion for parenting and substance use; the problem of laws becoming principles; kids mirroring guardians; sister as teetotaller; status of father and mother; Richard Pryor on beatings; and verboten subject matter and social suicide.

Keywords: addiction, Burger King, Edgewood Health Network, Patrick Zierten, Richard Pryor, The Orchard Recovery Centre.

An Interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA: Program Coordinator, Edgewood Health Clinics; Ex-National Executive Director, Edgewood Health Clinics Network (Part Three)[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been edited for clarity and readability.*

27. You have been the area manager at Burger King Corporation from 1970 – 1986, market manager at Kentucky Fried Chicken from 1987 to 1995, addictions counsellor at Open Door to Learning and Living from 1997 to 2001, program manager/counsellor at TWC from 2001-2003, and the executive director at The Orchard Recovery and Treatment Center from March, 2003 to January, 2007.[5] In brief, what tasks and responsibilities came with these stations from the service sector with respect to food to the counselling sector?

They were all business skills. Once you get the basic premise of how to make money, it’s pretty applicable in anything that you do. I was building a career and a family. It was extremely important to me to accomplish those things. So, staying in a career allowed me to make more money, I get into recovery and money & success is not a big deal anymore. I go to university and did not have a nickel to my name, and I borrowed a bunch of student loans. I started as a counsellor, and the skills were basically being a human being. I’m just one human being with another human with similar experience, and I can help them navigate the hell they’re going through.

I was a counsellor at the Orchard. I then went to another place because I wanted to work with guys on the street. I went back to the Orchard and was their executive director. Now, I am getting back into the business side. It is starting to slowly creep back in. Finally, I started work for Edgewood 8 years ago.

28. It does. Two things come to mind for me. One thing of particular note. You are in the present. You have a high level of emotional intelligence in terms of one-to-one interaction. Second thing is, as you noted at the outset of the interview, with respect to becoming more and more Canadian as time has gone on, and with being “old,” there’s a sense in which, as with that rugged American individualism, some things never leave. But I think these can be attenuated or used in a positive way.

Yea, yea! I’m not denying that’s still not a part of me. It’s in there. It’s been mellowed a little bit. Why is it mellow? Is it because of Canada? Is it because of my recovery? Is it because of my getting old? It is probably all of those things. Is it because I have a better relationship with my family? I don’t know.

29. How did these varied positions over decades serve subsequent professional/career capacities? How is this beneficial one into the next? One position was food service sector. The next was food service sector. The rest were counselling and managing.

How did these varied positions over decades serve subsequent professional/career capacities? You’re challenging me.

Well, as life goes on with anything you do, you become more knowledgeable of the particular industry that you’re in and you get better at it or understanding the nuances of it better, and you become a lot more proactive than reactive. That probably served me well in my business and career. You almost have to look at my life as two different lives. There’s the business life, and this recovery life.

What I learned with counselling is more about myself through my experience with others, I couldn’t know the things I know about myself unless I was in relationship with another human being. I need something to bounce back me. When I’m in the relationships with people, I get a sense of who I am. I begin to understand what I like, what I don’t like, how I function in certain situations, how I don’t function in certain situations, what makes me anxious, what makes me happy, where before I was not that reflective.

That was not my intention in entering the counselling field. It just happened. By understanding me, by knowing how I tick, I am able to help others in discovering who they are also. That really at the end of the day is what therapy is about – getting another person to understand who they are and what they stand for so that can start taking positions in their life.

31. It does answer it. In fact, I remember something from another interview with the Grand Secretary of the Alberta Lodge of Ancient, Free and Accepted Freemasons, Jerry W. Kopp. To preface with freemasonry’s organizational structure in Canada, you have the basic lodge, the districts of lodges, and the grand lodge for the lodges and districts. In British Columbia, it’s the British Columbia & Yukon Grand Lodge.

I managed an interview with the Grand Secretary. He said something to the effect that in their tradition: “Man know thyself.” Something relevant to your interest in the Greeks. I clued into the ancient Greeks, which goes into the Milesian school of the pre-Socratics. Thales thought the world was made of water. Of course, he lived by the Aegean Sea.

Yes, yes!

But the main one was “man know thyself” and that, more often than not, gets attributed to Socrates.

The unexamined life is not worth living.

That’s right. But I think this goes back to Thales, at least in the Western tradition. 40,000 years ago, we had the aboriginal dreamtime narratives. The philosophical histories differ, sometimes overlap, and continue into the present.

What were the most meaningful experiences for you?

It is so interesting in my addiction life, events that should have been extremely meaningful aren’t. I don’t think I experienced them in their totality. My children were extremely meaningful experiences for me. But I think, if I weren’t drinking, would it have been much better? It’s not about the drinking. It’s about the ignorance that I lived in. I think it’s part of the reason for my drinking. I couldn’t see things. I couldn’t feel things the way other people feel them.

I think the drinking was an offshoot to manage that. Why at 16 did I choose to stand up to my dad? That’s a meaningful experience. Leaving to Florida, that was a meaningful experience for me. I’ve had 43 addresses in my life. Each of those were meaningful events, but I don’t think they had the impact. If they had the significant impact that they should have had, I think I probably would have done things differently. Of course, the most meaningful impact was when I got sober. I experienced things at a level that I had never experienced events in the past. The little things that became much more meaningful for me, not the births of my children, but the fact that I was celebrating my 43rd birthday. I got excited. It had a lot more impact than any of my birthdays before, going back to university. It was nothing like when I went to Queen’s. There was not joy in Queen’s.

But going to Regent (UBC), it was so much fun! I was a little kid. I was experiencing life. I was learning things that I should have been learning in kindergarten. That’s really meaningful events. Only really meaningful events have occurred for me in my recovery. I ignore other stuff.

32. Now, you are the program director at Edgewood Vancouver Addition Services from March, 2007 to the present, and the national director for Edgewood Health Network from September, 2014 to a recent time, which ended.[6] Without breach of confidentiality or dissemination of sensitive information – I have to be sensitive this, especially with 5 certifications in ethics such as TCPS 2 – what tasks and responsibilities come with the station(s)?

Of course, as I mentioned to you before, I am no longer the national director of EHN Clinics. I am just the program director, but what I am responsible for is the business and the day-to-day administration in this operation, unlocking the doors in the morning, and locking the doors at night, and keeping it financially viable. I am not into making a ton of money here. I am just trying to keep the doors open. Probably, the most important thing is working with the counsellors here and working with the other people, and how do I mentor them, and keep them motivated, and keep them excited about what they do, along with managing their self-care.

Because we hear a lot of horrible stories. One thing that happens, I recognized with therapists, the traumas re-occur with living in the individual’s narrative by hearing the horrible stories. So, managing self-care is big. The other big piece is my own clinical experience with the individuals like how do I interact, what programming do we need to develop with these people along their journey, what program should we be running, and that’s probably my main thing right now.

I guess to keep the essence or the spirit alive in the office. That’s really my primary duty. How do I keep the essence or the spirit alive in the office?

You mentioned something interesting about reliving experience. Is this the view of the counsellors themselves, the patients, or both?

Many of us come into this field because many of us are trying to heal ourselves. It is the wounded healer syndrome. When I hear some stories, if I’m not well-integrated in myself, you can re-activate some of your own trauma by hearing someone else’s trauma. That happens with younger counsellors.

Another thing is transference happens. Well, maybe it shouldn’t. But, it does. It does happen. It is not that transference is bad. It is only bad when transference activates the counsellor to where they’re doing more work than the client is.

33. I wonder if that mirrors some for the experiences of actors.

Help me understand what you mean there, I think I get you.

34. The use of Stanislovsky, or some well-known, well-used, and full of principles and practices acting technique that an actor or actress pursues, practices, and puts into play in some major role. But then, say it’s some horrible role, that apparently is very popular now. They act it out. They then begin to have nightmares as if they are that horrible person. There might be a transference there.

Yea, yea, yea.

35. It might have to do with the mirror neuron system – seeing someone else. Some studies show this. There’s two people. One drinker and one observer. You, the other person, take a cup and sip from the cup. The other person observes this action. Your motor neurons coordinate this action. The observer’s mirror neurons, about 1/3 of them, will fire in response to this observation as if they are you. They are in you, and you are in them, about 1/3rd. It is mirroring oneself in another. Professor Vilayanur Subramanian Ramachandran argues for, or proposes as a hypothesis, this as the foundation for civilization. The in-one-lifetime transfer of knowledge and expertise for adaptive survival and reproductive success compared to the evolution of characteristics through standard natural selection, environmental pressure, and sufficiently large reproduction over many, many generations.

Jeremy Siegel, he’s a psychologist who talks about attachment theory. He talks about the same thing you’re talking about de Waal who research is on bonobos. He’s probably a primatologist. He’s talking about why there’s altruism in humans, right? It is Darwinian. Anyway, we’re going on tangents.

36. In the September 1, 2011 publication of Edgewood News – that is, Volume 6, Issue 3, Summer/Fall 2011, you wrote an article entitled Motivated to Change but Not Ready for Residential Inpatient, which divided into commitment, motivation, and relapse prevention.[7] Where does this statement about process stand now – around 5 years into its future?

The article where I talked about intensive outpatient programming, which talked about who would be a viable intensive outpatient rather than an intensive inpatient. And the three things that you would look at. The first thing you look at is someone’s commitment for staying sober. His level of motivation, which is very similar to commitment. And something similar to commitment is excitement to it, especially as potential relapse prevention criteria.

I wanted to ask because processes for various techniques can be updated often, and the DSM can be updated…

 …once every ten years or so…

…it seems like every week!

(Laugh)

(Laugh)

Not quite that much, but there is controversy around the applicability of the DSM-5 or the DSM-4 diagnosis.

37. You took part in a panel on substance abuse, in 2005, with “Sally Hamel…Constable Mark Fulton… Corporal Rich DeJong…[and] Ben Tamblyn.”[8]  In a report in line with the same discussion, Media Awareness Project reported you, as the program director at the Orchard Retreat Centre at the time, stating that 8/10 clients seen by the Orchard Retreat Centre “came from homes that advocated the use of drugs, including alcohol.”[9]  According to the same report, and even further, they wrote:

If we talk about zero drug tolerance, said Zierten, but we do it while we are pouring ourselves a cocktail, what kind of statement are we making?… While communication, coupled with education, are steps towards prevention, agreed Zierten, he also advocated stronger parenting measures, stricter discipline and the use of “tough love” techniques by caregivers. What results came from this discussion?[10] 

Where does the discussion reside now?

When you quoted this, I thought, “Man, you do thorough research, holy smokes!”

Thank you, that makes me happy.

Well, it starts in the context of the parental home. Well, if the parental home is allowing you to smoke cannabis on the back porch when it is still an illicit drug, or allow you to drink alcohol under age, you’re telling them that taking something illegal is okay. I’m not denying the fact that they’re going to go off and do it. That’s just being a teenager. That’s just what we do. But to actually facilitate and condone the behaviour sends out a terrible message to the individual because what it does is it says that it’s okay to be dishonest in some situations.

At least when they sneak around the parents and drink behind closed doors, they know they’re sneaking. They know they’re doing something dishonest, but now we change that whole culture. That whole context and say it’s not really cheating. I condone this. Even though the laws say you shouldn’t, we as the family unit say you can do it.

38. It tacitly and explicitly states laws are more loose principles, rules of thumb, or relative.

Relative! Relative to situation, what applies to others might not necessarily apply to us. That is my argument. A guy is having a drink and pouring a big tall martini or something is trying to tell the kid not to drink. Your best solution is to abstain. I’m just trying to explain that what kind of messages do you want to send to your kids.

A good message is to say, “Don’t drink!” That’s a great message to say. Why is drinking so important in culture? There are many cultures that don’t drink. Sometimes, they’re forced by religious doctrine, or where alcohol is not considered that important of a social mechanism as it is in Western culture, but here we got to have a drink.

If you want to get your children to think about substances differently, then act differently, don’t have a drink every night when you come home from work. Maybe, at social events and Christmas and weekends, when you’re out with friends or something, I wonder how much when my dad was telling me not to drink and was pouring himself his vodka gimlet, every night when he came home from work. As a matter of fact, everybody in the whole neighbourhood was drinking. It was the 1950s, right? It was when drinking at work was two or three martinis was the way to go. How did that influence? Did that give me the go-ahead to try earlier. I don’t know. What is worse now, hole smokes, these parents now no longer drink alcohol but smoke dope with their kids.

Now, I don’t know – you hear stories of them doing crystal meth, and heroine, and cocaine with their kids, and those are horrifying. I am not against legalization of cannabis. It is going to happen. It should be legalized. But realize that cannabis, it is not a benign drug. There is no such thing as a benign drug. I think there needs to be some regulation around it. Don’t do things that you don’t want your kids to do. You look like a hypocrite, otherwise.

39. Kids are mirrors. Kids look to authorities. Their guardians, intuitively. They build their behaviour patterns off that. I think that’s right in line with what you’re saying.

Kids do one of a couple things. They do exactly what we do over time, or they do the exact opposite. Kids seldom do what we say, but often do what we do. When I think about my reaction in my family system, I have two brothers who are alcoholics, and my sister is totally abstinent. And all of those are in reaction to my father. Three of us joined him. My sister said, “I’m never picking up a drink because of that.”

40. Your sister became the teetotaller.

She’s the teetotaller, absolutely. Unfortunately, she struggles with an eating disorder. So, the anxiety lives within our family system, and is still prevalent in her. She is just managing it through her eating patterns rather than her drinking patterns.

41. Something that seems important for this narrative. One sub-narrative to this metanarrative. What is the status of your mother and father at this point in time?

They’re dead. Dad died when I was in my thirties. And we were estranged. He died of his disease. He managed to get some clean time here and there, but at the end of his life, he ended up with a brain tumor. He got lung cancer too. Smoking addiction killed him. The morphine got him. He started drinking again. Technically, on his death certificate, it says he died of lung cancer and brain cancer, but in reality his addiction, if it didn’t cause it, it definitely exacerbated it.

My mom died – 16-year dead. She died of a heart attack very suddenly. But the wonderful thing was that I was in sobriety at this point, and she felt very good that I was sober. I think that I was her favorite. And she knew that my life was really a mess. We had a lovely reconciliation.

I noticed I was trying to forgive my dad. I realized that, “Oh my goodness, I am getting very angry and resentful with my mother.” I realized that she abandoned me when I was 8 years old when dad was beating me. “Where were you mom?” We had a lengthy conversation about that. She started crying, and she felt terrible. She said, “I was terrified of your father.” When she said that, there was immediately forgiveness. Because I had understood the terror he had created. I understand why she’s paralyzed. It suddenly made everything okay.

Unfortunately, I didn’t have an opportunity to talk to my dad, and I don’t know to this day if I’ve really, truly forgiven him, and I don’t know if you can tell unless I see him eyeball to eyeball. But the mere fact that I refer to him as my father is indicative of where I am on that continuum. If you were to ask me 20 years ago, I would have said, “That son of a bitch.” That would have been the first thing, and there would have been anger there. That answers that question.

42. The story you told me about your mother being in terror, and the beatings that you suffered. It reminds me of a Richard Pryor clip or scene he paints, say, where he describes that his father used to beat him, and his mother used to cry out, ‘It hurts me more than it hurts you.’ And he thought of replying, ‘Then let him beat your ass?!’

(Laugh)

Yea! That’s the thing. Comedians can put things like that, terrible instances like that, and make it funny, but that’s it. Poor mom, I felt sad for her. She didn’t plan her life to be that way. That’s for darned sure. She didn’t know she was marrying a guy that was going to be an alcoholic. They were madly in love at one point. They had dreams and hopes and desires. My dad’s drinking was not bad when I was first born. She just couldn’t get out of it. She was Catholic on top of it. So, she couldn’t leave. Catholics are stupid like that. We hang in there.

43. If you leave, the community is so deep, and I think this is generally true, if you are deeply involved in a community, and if you leave the community or do something verboten, whether by behaviour or word in that community, if it’s by word in that community it’s blaspheming the Holy Spirit, or if behaviour such as divorce, it’s social suicide, family and friends.

It’s the need to belong. We need to belong to something. We will risk terrible, terrible harm to ourselves just to say we belong.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Program Coordinator, Edgewood Health Clinics; Ex-National Executive Director, Edgewood Health Clinics Network.

[2] Individual Publication Date: April 15, 2017 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patrick-zierten-emba-ma-part-three; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2017 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] MA (1997-2002), Theology, The University of British Columbia; EMBA (1990-1991), Queen’s University.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA.

[5] LinkedIn. (2016). patrick zierten. Retrieved from https://ca.linkedin.com/in/patrick-zierten-8022637.

[6] LinkedIn. (2016). patrick zierten. Retrieved from https://ca.linkedin.com/in/patrick-zierten-8022637.

[7] Zierten, P. (2011, September 1). Motivated to Change but Not Ready for Residential Inpatient. Retrieved from http://www.edgewood.ca/assets/uploads/enews_summerfall2011_155.pdf.  

[8] Media Awareness Project. (2016). Drug Forum A Success. Retrieved from http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v05/n1697/a05.html?1818.

[9] The Rave. (2005, November 11). CN BC: Community Discussion Focuses On Drug-Use Prevention. Retrieved from http://www.rave.ca/en/news_info/28877/all/.

[10] The Rave. (2005, November 11). CN BC: Community Discussion Focuses On Drug-Use Prevention. Retrieved from http://www.rave.ca/en/news_info/28877/all/.

Bibliography

Edgewood Health Network Inc. (2016). Edgewood Health Network Inc. Retrieved from http://edgewoodhealthnetwork.com/#.

Jack Hirose & Associates, Inc. (2016). Patrick Zierten, EMBA, M.A.. Retrieved from http://www.jackhirose.com/speaker/patrick-zierten-emba-m-a/.

LinkedIn. (2016). patrick zierten. Retrieved from https://ca.linkedin.com/in/patrick-zierten-8022637.

Media Awareness Project. (2016). Drug Forum A Success. Retrieved from http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v05/n1697/a05.html?1818.

Mirus Rehabilitation Care Centre. (2016). Meet the North York Team. Retrieved from http://www.mirusrehabcare.com/about-our-addiction-treatment-center.html.

The Bible: New International Version. (2017). Matthew 7:12. Retrieved from https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+7%3A12.

The Globe and Mail. (2013, September 24). John Cleese explains why he loves Canada. Retrieved from https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=john+cleese+on+canada&ei=UTF-8&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-003.

The Rave. (2005, November 11). CN BC: Community Discussion Focuses On Drug-Use Prevention. Retrieved from http://www.rave.ca/en/news_info/28877/all/.

Zierten, P. (2012). EDGEWOOD Alumni INSITE in Vancouver. Retrieved from http://docplayer.net/5470680-For-those-seeking-help-for-addiction-access-to-more-professional.html.

Zierten, P. (2011, September 1). Motivated to Change but Not Ready for Residential Inpatient. Retrieved from http://www.edgewood.ca/assets/uploads/enews_summerfall2011_155.pdf.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA (Part Three) [Online].April 2017; 13(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patrick-zierten-emba-ma-part-three.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, April 15). An Interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA (Part Three). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patrick-zierten-emba-ma-part-three.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA (Part Three). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A, April. 2017. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patrick-zierten-emba-ma-part-three>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patrick-zierten-emba-ma-part-three.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A (April 2017). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patrick-zierten-emba-ma-part-three.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 13.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patrick-zierten-emba-ma-part-three>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 13.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patrick-zierten-emba-ma-part-three.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 13.A (2017):April. 2017. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patrick-zierten-emba-ma-part-three>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA (Part Three) [Internet]. (2017, April; 13(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patrick-zierten-emba-ma-part-three.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2017-04-08

An Interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA (Part Two)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 13.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Nine)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: April 8, 2017

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,906

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

An interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA. He discusses: MA at The University of British Columbia and the EMBA at Queen’s University; degrees and benefits to professional work; personal benefits from the work; communication and recovery; reconciliation; Zierten taking a moment; being abstinent, but not necessarily in recovery; being self-driven; the Jesus Myth; and the Golden Rule.

Keywords: Edgewood Health Clinics, Jesus, Patrick Zierten.

An Interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA: Program Coordinator, Edgewood Health Clinics; Ex-National Executive Director, Edgewood Health Clinics Network (Part Two)[1],[2],[3],[4] 

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been edited for clarity and readability.*

16. You earned an MA (1997-2002) in theology at The University of British Columbia and an EMBA (1990-1991) at Queen’s University. What is the story?

(Laugh)

Well, work paid for that. I didn’t have an undergraduate degree. Work was beginning to smell some issues were up with me. My drinking was getting progressively worse. But I was working here in British Columbia, and then later in Toronto. They said, “What do you want to do?” I said, “There’s this lovely program at Queen’s. Why don’t you let me do that? This might straighten things out.” I don’t even think this could be considered a Masters program based on the information given to me. This is way back in 88’ or something like that. So, I went to that and they paid for it.

I drank like a fish that entire thing. I was constantly intoxicated during the thing. It didn’t teach me anything that I didn’t already know. I knew on the business side of things. They give you a lot of credits for previous work too. They gave me credits based on the previous professional work. I would say my takeaway from that thing was nothing. It bought time in my job is what it did.

Now, theology is a different issue. I think what the Masters programs did for me was team me discipline. The Masters, at least of theology, gave me the permission to think creatively. I didn’t have an undergrad. But from what I’ve heard, you get information and regurgitate it on a test. It doesn’t require new thinking.

17. What you’re telling me, with the EMBA, you were at the moment of spiritual emptiness more or less, and then this followed into the Masters in theology. You are recovering. You’re taking these classes. And at the early part, you are in detox. At the latter points, I would speculate being in some form of AA (Alcoholics Anonymous).

Yes.

18. How did this benefit professional work with the emphasis on the MA rather than the EMBA based on the previous response?

The MA allowed me to become a counsellor. That’s all that was needed to get the first job that I got at the Orchard Recovery Centre. They just wanted a Masters degree. They didn’t care about what it was in. So, that plus some other work with family systems and certificate work in drug counselling made me a counsellor, and of course my own experience. And I read extensively.

Slowly, people realized that I had this business background. I started to take on more and more administrative duties when Edgewood hired me here 8 years ago, they asked me to open the office in Vancouver. Then a company bought us out called Edgewood Health Network and said, “Gee, Patrick, we’re building all of these clinics. Why don’t you head this up? You have all of this business experience plus you’ve got the clinical background.” I said, ‘Yea, I’ll head this up.” Six months into it, I realized I don’t want to do this.

I truly believe that being a counsellor is a calling from God. God wants me to help people. But I was doing 90% of my work as business because I was running all of these clinics. It went back to this same emptiness in my gut. I had to go back to my boss and say, “I’m sorry. I’m not your guy. In the past, I probably would’ve pushed through it.” And if I was drinking, I would’ve been drinking.

I was willing to take a cut in pay. Even if they said, “If you’re not the guy, you cannot be working for the company.” I was willing to do all of that. I had to be true to myself. I had gone astray, again. My ego had not quite died in that last 20 years. It was still hanging around. They hired somebody to take the position. And I’m going through transition now. As of April 1, I am running this little office all by myself. So, that, I guess, that business side influenced my life. The business side of me influenced my ego. Theology influence my counselling.

19. In terms of personal life, with the previous responses related to the profession and the calling, any personal benefits from this work? Of course, some obvious ones, but there seems to be a tangle between when it happened, how it happened, and this as an attempt to parse the personal from the professional.

I don’t know if the schooling or the Masters did anything for my personal life. There was this work. There was this façade. There was this pseudo-self that supported my work life and family life. It was all tied together. Of course, my drinking was heavily influencing my personal life back then too. It’s tough to suss that out. Even today, to suss what the theology degree has done, or the recovery process has done, but I do know that I am far more compassionate than I have been in the past. Far more forgiving, not only with others, but with myself. I find myself far more patient. I find myself being able to communicate at levels that I was not able to communicate in the past such as being vulnerable in intimate levels with people I know that I am not used to.

I hope that I am a little bit of a better guy, you know? A little bit better guy than 20 years ago. I have had much more rewarding relationships today than I ever did 20 years ago. I think that is part theology, and I think it is part recovery.

20. You mentioned communication. How important is communication to recovery? Being able to communicate, for instance, those that come into a situation and realize, “Okay, I have a serious problem.” But they cannot even articulate to others that they care about that it’s a problem.

Communication isn’t necessary in the rooms, in the 12-step rooms. Everyone know what’s going on. So, you don’t need to communicate that. There’s something. They mention something. And you go, I know exactly what you’re talking about. The 12-step community is a place where I learned to start to learn to communicate. I learned things in AA that I should’ve learned in kindergarten. How to share, how to be nice, how to be kind, how to communicate, how to tell people how I feel, I learned all of that in AA.

So, I think communication with the other people outside of the rooms took me much longer because I had to learn those skills in AA before I could take it into my relationship with my wife and my kids. Of course, there is the process in AA about making reconciliation and amends, and all of these others things they call on.

Eventually, recovery demands that you communicate with your loved ones to reconcile. There are a lot of people that are abstinent, but not in recovery. Abstinent does not mean a person is in recovery. That is a whole different ball game.

It does not mean it happens right away. Communication is critical at some point, but it does not mean that it has to happen right away.

21. Two things come to mind from that. First, in the period leading up to your going into detox, entering your Masters in theology, you lost your family…

…Yes…

22. …And you lost your work. And you mentioned reconciliation, and you mentioned family, what this brings to mind for me is how did things reconcile for you – if they did?

They did. It’s taken a long, long time because I devastated my family. I abandoned the family. When I left the family, there were a lot of reasons that I used to justify what I did that made no sense. I blamed my wife, my job, etc.

Only in hindsight after I got sober did I realize that I was chasing my addiction. It was too difficult to juggle family, and work, and addiction. So, the family usually gets discarded. Most addicts discard the family. Because you need to keep the job to pay for the addiction. So, I got into recovery. Like I said, I devastated my family. I broke my daughter’s heart, and I broke my ex-wife’s heart. The two boys, I got three kids. I have an older daughter and two sons. The two boys. They’re men, right? They’re much less complicated. They are like, “It’s okay, dad. We still love you.” We’re guys. It’s okay. That was quickly resolved. The reconciliation, but my daughter took me years to move past the pain and the hurt that I caused her.

She was heavily aligned with my wife and my wife’s pain. So, the two of them were allies with the pain that I caused. Their pain was covered up with anger. So, whenever I approached them, there was always anger.

My daughter was really important for me to reconcile with – so I made this huge effort. I sent her cards, and emails, and little messages, and you name it. I tried everything. Gifts. Send her trips and stuff. Nothing, no thank yous, no phone calls, no nothing. I was with my sponsor. He said, “Be diligent, be diligent, be patient, be patient.” Until finally, I said, “Forget it. Screw that. Enough of this bullshit. I can’t handle it. I’ve done everything I possibly can. It’s in her lap.” And I got angry at her, which made me feel bad that I was getting angry at my daughter for the terrible things I did to her and she didn’t want to forgive me, like, where does that logic come from?

Somehow, I began developing a relationship with my ex-wife over this because we talked about the kids, and there was this softness that began to develop. I was sending her Mother’s Day cards and thanking her for taking the kids while I was gone. I made my amends to her. Matter of fact, I made amends to my ex-wife 3 or 4 times as I remembered things. So, that relationship got softer. And then Father’s Day, which was a big event in my day, because I was waiting around the house waiting for the kids to call.

My boys would call. They’d say, “Hey dad, called to wish you a Happy Father’s Day.”

(Click)

They were done. They’re men. One sentence or less.

It was seven years, seven years, and then my daughter called on Father’s Day. It was really awkward, obviously. “I just wanted to wish you a Happy Father’s Day.” I probably said I loved her, she did not respond, and then I thought, “Wow, we’re making some headway.” After, I started thinking, “Why did she start thinking to pick up the phone and make this darn call?” I think what happened was that I was repairing the damage done between me and my ex-wife, and that allowed her to make some space to come closer to me. I think she thought if she created a relationship with me, she would have felt that she would be betraying her mom because they were locked in their own pain. Their own grief. I had it backwards. I should have always been trying to work with my wife and reconciling with her, and that would have allowed my daughter to come closer.

That opened the door, and it’s got better, and better, and better, and better, and better. In April, I am going to be staying at my daughter’s house. She’s invited me to stay in her house.

Now, I’ve been sober for 21 years.

(Laugh)

And, you know, it took seven years before I got the first phone call. I still don’t like the relationship I have with my daughter, but that’s because I’ve got this idealized relationship picture that probably can’t happen because there’s so much time that’s gone by. I don’t know my daughter the way I should know her. Because there are huge gaps of time when I wasn’t around and didn’t see her grow and experience. And I am hoping at the end of the day, that she’s going to, you know, ten years after I die, she’s going to sit around at the dinner table with my two sons and they’ll be exchanging stories about dad and she’s going to say, “Hey –

[Long pause]

[Zierten Crying]

“…He was a good man. He’s alright, you know?” And I’m sad that I didn’t know them better. But if that conversation occurs, then it will make life worthwhile. So yes, reconciliation takes a long time, man. But at the end of the day, it is the relationships you have with your loved ones and how do you make them the best you possibly can. And by the way, the onus is on my side of the street, not theirs. If they want to play along, that’s wonderful, but if they don’t want to play along I still have that role I have to play.

23. It’s okay. We can take the time. If you need time, it’s okay.

Okay.

[Pause]

24. You mentioned something else about someone being abstinent, but not necessarily in recovery. So, what does abstinence mean in this context? And what does recovery mean in this context? Therefore, how can one be abstinent and not in recovery?

The answer to this is maintaining a sobriety from all form of mood altering substances: alcohol, cannabis, cocaine – whatever the drugs of choice are. So that you’re not always defaulting back into an old behemoth. And living sober. Recovery is about becoming a better human being as a result of this freedom you’ve gained from not having to use anymore. To me, if you don’t get recovery, you’re going to go back to using because you just can’t live with the terrible angst. Those issues have not been solved yet. The negative consequences may have stopped. That’s fine. That’s probably good, but you still haven’t solved the inner issues. To me, recovery is about resolving the inner issues. The reconciliation, establishing the relationships, righteous living, just being a better guy one day at a time. That usually requires community support, therapy, education, all of the things that make you a better person.  That’s the difference.

25. Now, some of the things talked about before with respect to the content and purpose of the MA had to do with it simply being a way in which to better think independently about certain subject matter – to “play around with ideas.”

That seemed to fit your anti-collective, or independence of, mind that you had, which was both grounded in that American, Milwaukee experience. In addition to, possibly, going away from the collective of your father, who was likely Roman Catholic, in addition to the Roman Catholic system, which is, in general, to do with authority, especially to do with Mass and cathedral attendance with the priest wearing a robe.

The authority based on apostolic succession from Saint Peter. You have the boys in the white robe coming down the pews. You lean down with the cushion pullouts from the back of the seat behind you, and do prayers, but it is all guided for you. It is all interpreted for you, preliminarily. Therefore, your thoughts are guided, and therefore your decisions, for you in advance with regards to the ultimate nature of the world from theological disciplines.

What I am getting a sense of is both this spiritual experience of ‘getting alcohol out of my life!’, ‘I’m going to enter detox’, ‘I interpret that as a miracle from personal perspective’, and ‘that was an act of God’. The act of God, the quitting, the entering detox, and then going into the MA of theology, which has to do with a large independence of mind there, and the self-driven and the self-discipline. Now, the self-driven was more there at 16, but the self-discipline was more developed during the second Masters degree. One thing that was not necessarily talked about was the content and purpose of the MA.

The purpose was to continue education, but I do not know what was in it, in terms of interpretation of scripture, reading, and so on.

I didn’t take credit for stuff. In my recovery, it is so easy. It so comes to me so naturally. You’re probably right. It’s self-driven, but I don’t feel that it’s self-driven. I don’t know how to explain.

If it isn’t, I will put the brakes on the statement about being “self-driven.”

I don’t know how to explain it. But going back to the content, why did I join and go back to university to get a theology degree? It was just curiosity. I had no expectation of getting anything out of it. Really, a Masters in theology. You do not make money with a Masters degree in theology, unless you’re going to be pastoring a church, which I had no intention of doing. It was totally out of curiosity.

A lot of it was around, what is the purpose of Christianity? Let’s talk about the purpose of God, Jesus Christ figure, and it’s a philosophy of God. A philosophy of Jesus Christ. That’s what most of the studies were about, and from a literal perspective to a cosmic-spiritual perspective of the Lord. It is interesting.

26. You called it the “Jesus myth” before.

Yea! I didn’t have the courage to call it the “Jesus myth” in seminary. I was afraid I’d get excommunicated or kicked out or something like that.

(Laugh)

I challenged the actual – the literalism, but I never challenged the truth of the story. So, that kept me in good grace with a bunch of folks.

(Laugh)

(Laugh)

I could elaborate on the resurrection. I could elaborate on the faith. I could elaborate on the belief system and the importance of being a good person, which is, basically, Christian thinking. Love your neighbour, love God, and love yourself. That’s the Bible in three sentences. I never strayed from that.

26. You get these principles out of Matthew 7:12, which says, “So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.”[5] That is a general principle. There are generally three forms of the Golden Rule: an affirmative found in Matthew, a negative form, and a passive form. You can find this throughout Confucius’ Analects, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, and so on. I believe you can even find it in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and Scientology.

For the Mormons, where the Garden of Eden was in Jackson County, Missouri, this is based on their cosmology and philosophy – and purported history, or that the Native Americans, across groups, were a lost tribe of Israel. To them, you die, go to heaven, hell, or purgatory, and then are reborn with a perfect body, and then, based on works in the world are given placement in the Telestial, Celestial, or Terrestrial realms in this after-earth life with a perfect body.

Or for the Scientologists, the perspective of the galactic overlord Xenu from trillions of years ago, and the inhabitation of human beings with Thetans with the cure being in Dianetics. You have these principles of “Love your neighbour, love God, and love yourself.” These are the valuable things that you got out of the Catholic upbringing.

I always had it. I always had it because I was brought up in the Catholic tradition. It was the epitome of Love your neighbour, love God, and love yourself. It was the literalism that I escaped from when I left after high school, but I never left the basic concept or premise of the Bible.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Program Coordinator, Edgewood Health Clinics; Ex-National Executive Director, Edgewood Health Clinics Network.

[2] Individual Publication Date: April 8, 2017 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patrick-zierten-emba-ma-part-two; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2017 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] MA (1997-2002), Theology, The University of British Columbia; EMBA (1990-1991), Queen’s University.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA.

[5] The Bible: New International Version. (2017). Matthew 7:12. Retrieved from https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+7%3A12.

Bibliography

Edgewood Health Network Inc. (2016). Edgewood Health Network Inc. Retrieved from http://edgewoodhealthnetwork.com/#.

Jack Hirose & Associates, Inc. (2016). Patrick Zierten, EMBA, M.A.. Retrieved from http://www.jackhirose.com/speaker/patrick-zierten-emba-m-a/.

LinkedIn. (2016). patrick zierten. Retrieved from https://ca.linkedin.com/in/patrick-zierten-8022637.

Media Awareness Project. (2016). Drug Forum A Success. Retrieved from http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v05/n1697/a05.html?1818.

Mirus Rehabilitation Care Centre. (2016). Meet the North York Team. Retrieved from http://www.mirusrehabcare.com/about-our-addiction-treatment-center.html.

The Bible: New International Version. (2017). Matthew 7:12. Retrieved from https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+7%3A12.

The Globe and Mail. (2013, September 24). John Cleese explains why he loves Canada. Retrieved from https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=john+cleese+on+canada&ei=UTF-8&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-003.

The Rave. (2005, November 11). CN BC: Community Discussion Focuses On Drug-Use Prevention. Retrieved from http://www.rave.ca/en/news_info/28877/all/.

Zierten, P. (2012). EDGEWOOD Alumni INSITE in Vancouver. Retrieved from http://docplayer.net/5470680-For-those-seeking-help-for-addiction-access-to-more-professional.html.

Zierten, P. (2011, September 1). Motivated to Change but Not Ready for Residential Inpatient. Retrieved from http://www.edgewood.ca/assets/uploads/enews_summerfall2011_155.pdf.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA (Part Two) [Online].April 2017; 13(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patrick-zierten-emba-ma-part-two.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, April 8). An Interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA (Part Two). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patrick-zierten-emba-ma-part-two.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A, April. 2017. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patrick-zierten-emba-ma-part-two>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patrick-zierten-emba-ma-part-two.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A (April 2017). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patrick-zierten-emba-ma-part-two.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 13.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patrick-zierten-emba-ma-part-two>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 13.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patrick-zierten-emba-ma-part-two.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 13.A (2017):April. 2017. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patrick-zierten-emba-ma-part-two>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA (Part Two) [Internet]. (2017, April; 13(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patrick-zierten-emba-ma-part-two.

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2017-04-01

An Interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA (Part One)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 13.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Nine)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: April 1, 2017

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 4,106

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

An interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA. He discusses: geographic, cultural, and linguistic familial background; Milwaukee to Canada and the influence on development; John Cleese, Monty Python, Fawlty Towers, and Canadians being “deliciously sane”; influences and pivotal moments; a job; possibility of important individuals on the road of early life; Lawrence Kohlberg’s theory of moral development; origination of the interest in theology; the chosen theology; favourite book in the Bible; Saul Tarsus and Paul the Apostle; saints on his wall; and origination of the interest in counselling.

Keywords: counselling, John Cleese, Lawrence Kohlberg, Patrick Zierten, Paul the Apostle, Saul of Tarsus.

An Interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA: Program Coordinator, Edgewood Health Clinics; Ex-National Executive Director, Edgewood Health Clinics Network (Part One)[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been edited for clarity and readability.*

1. In terms of geography, culture, and language, where does your family background reside?

I was born in the United States and in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, but I moved extensively throughout my life in the United States until 1986 when I was transferred up here to Canada. I have been here since then. I am probably more Canadian today than I am American. Americans have this misnomer that Canadians are the same as they are. When I moved up here, I realized that is not the case. Although, the differences are subtle. Yet, they are definitely more impactful. I came up here with the expectation that nothing would be different, but there were these subtle differences that threw me off guard for a while I assimilated to the culture here. I am American by birth and tradition, but I am Canadian by my homeland.

2. In Milwaukee, coming to Canada, and with that background in mind, it depends on the time of the move. Nonetheless, how did this influence development?

I think in the United States there is the idea that the independent person, independent rights, and making it happen is up to you. That definitely influenced me in my development, my career, and my family. It still influences me to some degree. This attitude got me to the point where I was in my career, but it wasn’t who I really was. When I got to Canada, Canada allowed me to be a little different and be more aware of the group, and conversation, and it’s not about getting the next best thing. Canada is a much kind and gentle place. And I think I am amply influenced by that today. Plus, I’m getting old. That influences my development too. I just don’t care about things like I used to.

3. John Cleese, from Monty Python and Fawlty Towers acclaim, made a statement about a love for Canada. He said Canadian’s are “deliciously sane” by comparison.[5]

Yea! Yea, I like that. But it drives Americans nuts. It confuses Americans when we need to have a conversation about something when it’s obvious what has to be done. In America, it is “this is what we have to do.” Canadians it’s “let’s talk about this for a while. Let’s give it a couple days. Let’s let it mull around, let’s see if we can make everyone happy in this deal.” Not Americans, it’s hell or high water.

4. What about influences and pivotal moments in major cross-sections of early life including kindergarten, elementary school, junior high school, high school, and undergraduate studies (college/university)?

I’d say that there is a process that culminates in an event. My father being an alcoholic. He was a pretty violent guy. We lived in that crazy chaos. I was terrified of my father from age 6 to 9.

At 16, we had a conflict where I finally stood up to my father. And I said no more of this, and he kicked me out of the house. From that moment, I never relied on the family system to support myself. Matter of fact, I have lived on my own from 16 on. For me, that was a pivotal moment where I discovered I could stand for myself. It was definitely a statement that said that there was an internal spirit that could stand for Patrick. I no longer had to be a victim in this situation. Even though the path was terrifying, I basically said I am not going to comply in this situation and I am going to strike out on my own, and survive, that was huge. I managed to finish high school during that period time. I started a job and started to support myself while going to school.

5. What was the job?

I was working at a factory, just putting stuff together. I was surviving. I think I lived in an apartment that was $95 a month. And I managed to go to high school and finish.

There was another event. At about age 20, I didn’t go to university. I didn’t go to undergrad. But a bunch of buddies and I decided that we were going to go out and make our fortune. We all piled into a car and moved to Florida. Our dream was to build a mobile restaurant – a food truck. The things we typically see now on the streets. We thought we were way ahead of the curve on this one.

One day, we were all sitting around drinking beer. Beer was a part of my life at that time, and we were getting pretty well hammered. One guy said, “If we’re going to do this, you know, one of us ought to learn how to be a restauranteur.” And we said, “Oh, okay.” One of the guys’ wives was an employment agent and saw that there was a position for an assistant manager at Burger King. One of us said, “One of us should apply for that job.” We drew straws and I drew the short straw. I applied for the job, and got it. And I was with Burger King for almost 18 years working from an assistant manager to the area manager of Western Canada.

6. As with many trajectories in life, especially with these pivotal happenings with an alcoholic father, or events such as friends and you saying, ‘We’re going to make our fortune. How? We’re going to get a food truck.’ There are individuals along the way that seemingly can be a casual thing in the midst of it, but can leave an impact 5, 10, or 25 years later. Was there anyone like that?

There wasn’t anyone in my early life. There wasn’t a teacher, or a boy scout troop leader, or a coach in my life where I could draw that strength from. I don’t recall that. There were plenty of people in my career development. Many of my bosses acted as mentors.

Not only from a career perspective, but also from a life perspective. They were really helpful and beneficial in trying to steer my way or navigate a value system. I hadn’t really established a value system. That didn’t come until later in life. Two things determined my values. Number one, whatever got me what I wanted and, number two, who did I talk to last. I was kind of a chameleon in that sense.

There was no real Patrick. I was just trying to fit in. I think that was something I learned as a child in my alcoholic family. The way you survived as a child in an alcoholic family was being unnoticed. If I didn’t draw my father’s ire, there was no violence.

(Laugh)

It was a survival mechanism worked for me.

7. One piece of psychological literature is Lawrence Kohlberg’s theory of moral development.

I’m not familiar.

8. He builds them from 1-5, which are the most accepted, and then he has some speculative stages such as the sixth. Stage one, the focus is obedience and punishment. Stage two, the focus is self-interest. Stage three, good intentions as determined by societal consensus. Stage four, the focus is authority and social order. Stage five, the focus is the social contract. Stage six, the focus is universal ethical principles, or it deals with universal principles of ethical cognition. Another speculative stage, number seven, focuses on transcendental ethics associated with cosmic perspective. Sometimes found in traditional religious systems. At the same time, in the lower levels, what you find in early development, you seem to be indicating this about yourself, which could be a common pattern: “How can I get out of trouble?”

As I’m sitting here talking to you, when I think about it, my grandmother was very influential for me. And so was my Catholicism, I’m Irish. My father sent me to parochial schools all the time. For some reason, in Irish families, the eldest or the youngest ends up becoming a priest. I think at some level, my father wanted me to become a spiritual leader within the family. I don’t know. My grandmother was a right off the boat Irish. She had a beautiful, beautiful faith. She was my refuge. For many years of my life when my dad was out of control, I would go to my grandmother’s house. It was safe and loving. When I finally had to stand up for myself, I think that it was my grandmother, although she was dead at the time, was standing behind me.

My grandmother was a huge part of my life as an influencing factor early on.

9. Where did interest in theology originate for you?

Well, there you go! Back to grandma again!

(Laugh)

I was raised Catholic, as I mentioned. And I went to parochial school all my life, but I hated being a Catholic. I never liked the idea of a punishing God, and fire and brimstone. It just didn’t make sense to me, but my grandmother had this undaunting faith around God and this lovely attitude. She had this concept of God that was totally different than the one I was getting in parochial school. And when I was able to leave the school, transcendental meditation was really big, and I went down that road.

I thought, “Oh hell, I will become of these saffron robe guys, and clang-clangers, at the air port and solicit alms.” I went from that to agnosticism because I just couldn’t figure God out. At some point, I probably evolved into atheism. If there was a God, it was me. I think it was heavily influenced by Western culture too. It’s up to me, not you.

But there was always this niggling inside that wasn’t being satisfied, I didn’t know what it was at the time. I think that’s a lot of the reason why I drank. To be honest with you, I think I was trying to manage that niggling, what the Greeks called the Daemon. It was something, and it wasn’t getting satisfied. I became alcoholic like my father, and I crashed and burned twenty years ago. I went to the 12-step program and there was this concept of a God of your understanding, I thought, “This is a novel idea. I never knew you could do that.” For forty years, I thought it was either-or. You either believe the Christian God or you do not believe. This was liberating that I could have a God of my understanding. So, I got really, really curious about that.

I believe, by the way, that my sobriety was a miracle. If not that, it was certainly a spiritual awakening. A spiritual event for me. One day, I couldn’t stop drinking. And then, through surrender of my ego, which is what I had to do, I suddenly stopped. I went into AA and cravings were gone. I couldn’t tolerate, couldn’t manage, and then it was gone. I attribute that to God. I can’t prove that, but I like the way it feels. I like the way it feels.

(Laugh)

10. How long was this period of drinking and having the cravings?

Oh, I think my first drink was at 15, and I got absolutely annihilated and woke up in my mother’s purple stretch pants and bra in a pool of vomit. I should have known something was askew at that point. But what I resolved at that point was to learn how to drink appropriately, and I drank – I loved drinking. It was the solution to all of this inner angst going on inside my gut. Plus, I had this genetic predisposition. No doubt about it. Drinking was relatively easy.

For years, it would have been considered heavy social drinking, and from the outside you would not have recognized I was an alcoholic. It was not until 35 when I started to have negative consequences. I began a more serious effort in trying to stop or control my drinking. I used a multitude of tactics to try and do that. Some worked for a period of time. Most did not.

It got worse and worse until finally it destroyed my family, and I literally ended up abandoning my family to chase in my addiction. In my job, I somehow was still able to function. Work had become so much rote that I performed regardless of what condition I was in. Around 40, that’s when the floor really fell out. I was kind of functioning at 40. I lost family. I lost the job. And suddenly, I’m living on EI, and I cannot stop drinking. I just can’t stop drinking. I’m drinking probably anywhere between 26 ounces of vodka to 40 ounces of vodka a day.

But two years prior to that, it wasn’t anything like that. It added up over time. And then, a fellow that was a co-worker of mine found out that I was struggling, and he appeared at my doorstep out of the clear blue, and said, “Hey, you don’t have to do this anymore. You don’t have to do this anymore.” I thought, “What do you mean? There’s a way out?” I really didn’t think there was a way out. I know it sounds baffling, but I didn’t think there was a way to stop. Every time I would make these solemn promises, “I’m not going to use. I’m not going to use. I’m not going to use.” Within a couple hours, I’m using. Anyway, this guy says, “You don’t have to do this.” I ended up in the detox centre the next day, and that began my journey in recovery.

And then, literally, in that surrender, when I finally said, “Okay, I guess I am like my dad. I guess I am an alcoholic,” which was something I did not want to admit to. I can no longer control this. Something in that surrender released me. That is something that you’ll see in spiritual transformation – all through the history of man, where this process of surrendering. The old ‘you got to die to self in order to be reborn’. I think in that moment I died to self.

I dismissed my ego that I had been building for the last 40 years, and said, “I can’t do this. I need God’s help.” In this particular case, that’s how I ventured forward. What I needed was other people’s help, and I surrendered to other people’s help, I needed to get rid of that rugged individualism from earlier. In that moment, I was empowered. That’s all I can say about it. And that’s it.

11. And the theology that you chose.

So then, I get into recovery. I attempted to go back to my old business role. I tried to do what I had been doing for the last 20 years, which I was pretty good at. But I had this emptiness. Now that I’m not drinking I couldn’t fill that emptiness. I couldn’t figure out this God thing. If I was dismissing everything that I had learned in the past, or reframing or relearning everything in the past, which is what I was doing, then I better go out and seek advice or more information on this.

So, I went back out to apply for a Masters. I went to UBC. And the theological school accepted me!

(Laugh)

I went to a Protestant, Evangelical seminary, and I am a Catholic, and an alcoholic in recovery. So, I was a little bit of an oddball. What I discovered is that I loved it. I loved every minute of it. I love the Bible. I love the spirit of the Bible. I am not a literalist by any fashion and I think the Jesus story is a myth, but that doesn’t make it not true. Because I think there is a great deal of truth to the Jesus myth.

12. What is your favorite book out of the Bible, as a sub-question?

James, probably. Or any of the letters from Paul, I just love Paul. I think Paul was an addict, to be honest with you. He talks about the thorn in his side and wanting to do the things I don’t want to do. So I think Paul was a recovering addict.

13. To your point, that you quite eloquently put, I mean he was Saul of Tarsus. He was persecuting Christians. And then he was escaping out of a town in a basket. Then he has the transition, that transformation, and becomes Paul the Apostle. So, I think there’s something to that.

Yea! I don’t know if you’re familiar with Joseph Campbell, but he talks about the mythical story. The story where the hero has to die in order to be risen. It is the human condition. It is human nature. Yes, you’re right. There are all kinds of these dying and being reborn stories in the context of the Bible. Of course, the Jesus myth is the one that gets the most publicity. Anyway, I go to university and I study The Bible. Another thing that is really interesting that as a Catholic, you do not read the Bible. Catholics are told what the Bible is supposed to be. So, it’s the priest who tells you what the Bible means.

The Protestants have to read the Bible and figure it out for yourself. I like that. That they gave me permission to think about it. At the end of the day, I realized that nobody’s got this God thing figured out. There are 25,000 Christian denominations, and all of their theologies are different to some degree. So, it just gave me a whole lot of freedom when it came to the God of my understanding.

And so, that’s where I stand today, and I still do not deny my Catholic tradition. I love studying the saints. I love the spiritual processes some of the saints went through.

14. Are those saints on the wall?

(Laugh)

All of those represent – some were given to me. And some of those represent pilgrimages that I’ve made in the past. Some of them represent what I would consider spiritual places. There’s Medjugorje. I went to Gethsemane, where Thomas Merton had a hermitage. I went up and travelled to the Saint Patrick’s Hill. One day, I’m hoping to do the El Camino. That’s on my bucket list. So, for me, there’s also something about the pilgrimage.

I try to do a lot of pilgrimages and retreats. That’s my God of my understanding. Do I belong to a church? No, I belong to a small community of believers. That’s what I’d call home church. We have, maybe, 20 members. We get together quasi-formally. And I guess, if you want to think about the 12-step program, I am stilled involved in that. To me, it is a church too. That’s a community of believers.

15. What about counselling?

That came out of my rebirth. Suddenly, I no longer owned my life. Through my death to my self, and my resurrection, I am now, therefore, responsible. I am now accountable for this transformation. How do I return what has been graciously given to me? That’s where I thought, “Where can I best fit in?” If you look at the narrative of my life, it says, “You’ve got to be a counsellor.” It’s my vocation. It is what God wanted me to do. It’s God saying, “This is what you need to do for the rest of your life.” I am very passionate about it.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Program Coordinator, Edgewood Health Clinics; Ex-National Executive Director, Edgewood Health Clinics Network.

[2] Individual Publication Date: April 1, 2017 at https://in-sightjournal.com/2017/04/01/an-interview-with-patrick-zierten-emba-ma-part-one/; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2017 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] MA (1997-2002), Theology, The University of British Columbia; EMBA (1990-1991), Queen’s University.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA.

[5] John Cleese explains why he loves Canada (2013) states:

People are always surprised if I say that I’m basically, I’m introverted. Basically, you put me in room, on my own, with three or four books, I’m happy for a week. You know? Whereas extroverts need lots of stimulus, they need music playing and activity, and all this kind of thing. I’m not like that at all. And I think America has become such an extroverted culture. That you feel a little bit pale in comparison. I want to say, “No, no, no, you’re the normal ones” You see what I mean? And when Obama was talking the other day in the speech about Syria or about American Exceptionalism, I’d heard about this before. It’s not a particularly healthy thing for people to think that they’re exceptional, whether it’s individually or as groups. When you come to the countries who do think that they’re exceptional, they often seem to have had a very troubled history. Because they find it difficult just get on quietly with people. And what I like about Canadians, I’ve never heard a Canadian who thought that anything about Canada was exceptional. And I think that’s why you’re deliciously sane. And I feel happy, relaxed, and comfortable here.

The Globe and Mail. (2013, September 24). John Cleese explains why he loves Canada. Retrieved from https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=john+cleese+on+canada&ei=UTF-8&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-003.

Bibliography

Edgewood Health Network Inc. (2016). Edgewood Health Network Inc. Retrieved from http://edgewoodhealthnetwork.com/#.

Jack Hirose & Associates, Inc. (2016). Patrick Zierten, EMBA, M.A.. Retrieved from http://www.jackhirose.com/speaker/patrick-zierten-emba-m-a/.

LinkedIn. (2016). patrick zierten. Retrieved from https://ca.linkedin.com/in/patrick-zierten-8022637.

Media Awareness Project. (2016). Drug Forum A Success. Retrieved from http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v05/n1697/a05.html?1818.

Mirus Rehabilitation Care Centre. (2016). Meet the North York Team. Retrieved from http://www.mirusrehabcare.com/about-our-addiction-treatment-center.html.

The Bible: New International Version. (2017). Matthew 7:12. Retrieved from https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+7%3A12.

The Globe and Mail. (2013, September 24). John Cleese explains why he loves Canada. Retrieved from https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=john+cleese+on+canada&ei=UTF-8&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-003.

The Rave. (2005, November 11). CN BC: Community Discussion Focuses On Drug-Use Prevention. Retrieved from http://www.rave.ca/en/news_info/28877/all/.

Zierten, P. (2012). EDGEWOOD Alumni INSITE in Vancouver. Retrieved from http://docplayer.net/5470680-For-those-seeking-help-for-addiction-access-to-more-professional.html.

Zierten, P. (2011, September 1). Motivated to Change but Not Ready for Residential Inpatient. Retrieved from http://www.edgewood.ca/assets/uploads/enews_summerfall2011_155.pdf.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA (Part One) [Online].April 2017; 13(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patrick-zierten-emba-ma-part-one.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, April 1). An Interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA (Part One). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patrick-zierten-emba-ma-part-one.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A, April. 2017. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patrick-zierten-emba-ma-part-one>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patrick-zierten-emba-ma-part-one.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A (April 2017). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patrick-zierten-emba-ma-part-one.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 13.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patrick-zierten-emba-ma-part-one>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 13.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patrick-zierten-emba-ma-part-one.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 13.A (2017):April. 2017. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patrick-zierten-emba-ma-part-one>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Patrick Zierten, EMBA, MA (Part One) [Internet]. (2017, April; 13(A)). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-patrick-zierten-emba-ma-part-one.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2017-03-22

An Interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall (Part Four)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 13.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Nine)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: March 22, 2017

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,931

ISSN 2369-6885

an-interview-with-kelly-carlin-b-a-m-a

Abstract

An interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall, B.A., M.A. She discusses: feelings around being bright, and in fact the smartest, and not doing well enough; magna cum laude for the B.A. and the M.A. in Jungian depth psychology; and going through counselling, the healing process, and the creative courage.

Keywords: creative courage, Jung, Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall.

An Interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall, B.A., M.A.: Actress, Internet Radio Host, Monologist, Producer, and Writer (Part Four)[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been edited for clarity and readability.*

20. To go back to school, you were clinging to Miss Morgan in school. You were a very good student. Also, you had validation from Mrs. Dresser. She would bring you around and introduce you as one of the smartest kids. You deduced the smartest because she would bring the smart kids out, but you were the only kid brought out.

(Laugh)

Yes.

Another footnote to that is you only ever received one C. Based on the acknowledgements in the interview, and the narrative within the book, I see patterns and themes. We have a highly gifted and talented kid in a troubled surrounding.

So, likely more sensitive to surroundings, emotionally and experientially, and enduring Carlin craziness, but you ruined your SAT scores. Even knowing you were bright, even knowing you had good grades, the SATs were insufficient for Ivy schools. What were the feelings at that time?

Also, the year I was taking the SATs, my junior and senior year in high school, I was in a difficult emotional place. I had depression. I had anxiety. I had an abortion. I was in this abusive relationship with this boy. Taking those tests were hard, I am not good at taking those tests.

It was a blow. Also, I don’t think I could’ve handled going 3,000 miles away from my parents at the time. I wasn’t capable of it. So, it saved me from having to make the choice. Thank God, I got into UCLA. Even though, after two weeks at UCLA, I couldn’t handle it. I was emotionally unfit to handle it.

I didn’t know I was having anxiety and depression at that level. I didn’t know what those feelings were at the time. I felt crazy inside. I felt as though I couldn’t handle anything. I felt something was wrong with me. I had no idea how to ask for help because, on the outside, I wanted everyone to think I was fine and okay.

It was another big theme in my life, by saying, “I am fine. I am fine,” when they asked how I was doing. It was devastating. It made me feel behind all of my peers. I stayed behind because I didn’t go to college until I was 25. That set me up for the next 20 years thinking, “I am behind. I am behind.”

So, any sense of being smart, bright, and creative, and being the daughter of this very smart and creative man, and mom too, was non-existent. I felt as though I fucked it all up.

21. At UCLA, you did graduate magna cum laude with a B.A. in Communication Studies. As we’ve discussed at the start of the interview, you did earn your masters in Jungian depth psychology. Both are caveats to that description.

Yes, of course. However, I earned my B.A. at age 30. I was 8 years behind my peers, who were already in careers and doing big things in Hollywood. I was scraping myself out of a very insane 10 years of my life with Andrew.

I never doubted my book smarts. UCLA did help me. It helped my self-esteem. It provided the courage to leave Andrew. Creatively, who was what I wanted to be – an artist – in the world, I never gave myself a shot. I felt behind. I am a smart person. I knew that, but I had no courage. No creative courage, it took me more time to get.

It took more time to step into. It took the death of my mother to catalyze that. It took the death of my father, more recently, to do it more. I am writing a book about it now, which is about creative courage. How we get it, how we own it, and what happens when we start claiming our creative lives, I always knew I was clever and smart.

That wasn’t an issue. I didn’t have any cajones to put my ass on the line creatively. I regret that. I regretted it for years. I’m getting over it now only because I am living my creative life.

22. Going through the counselling, going through the therapy, and presenting your life in your material, is that part of the healing process for you? Is that allowing you to talk more about creative courage?

Yes, for sure, there was something about me needing to tell my story out loud, which was essential to completing some cycle around that. It was the period at the end of the sentence for me. Having been invisible and silent for my whole life, that was self-imposed in some ways. In some ways, it wasn’t. In others, it felt imposed upon me.

Feeling invisible and silent, to be seen and heard in my story, and to know I could tell it in an entertaining way, in a way people could relate to the universality of it, that I could, finally, say, “This is what I went through. This is what I was. This is who I am. This is what made me.” It has been huge.

The book came out in 2015, a little over a year ago. These things take time. Here I am, I am 53. My book came out when I was 52. Now, I am walking away from it all. I am walking away from my past, away from my story.

Not that I’m cutting it off, or being done with it. However, there’s something to being able to look forward, live in the present moment, and do the work that I am here to do now. I couldn’t fully do that work until I told this story. That might be true for some people. All art is ultimately telling our stories in different forms, in different frames, in different aspects, and with different transparencies.

Memoir is very transparent. A painting, maybe not so, but the artist is always there somewhere. I think we’re all looking to be seen, to say, “I matter. This happened to me. I did this.” To be able to sort through all of that, it is important to know who we are. “How did I get here?” is as much about “Who am I?” than anything else. So, it’s been very healing. Once again, not only going to graduate school and doing your own therapy…

(Laugh)

(Laugh)

…but telling your story. It is a powerful means of healing. The tricky part about writing memoir is you have to be, in some way, a teller and true witness to you story. It has to become a narrative. You can’t be stuck living inside of it because you’re still doing the healing part. I have done a lot of the healing part. I have done 90% of the healing.

I’ve done a lot of healing such as meditation, therapy, and other modalities. The final piece was to present it to the world, and to make it useful to the world. That was essential to my healing. I survived all of this. I am lucky. I came out on my own two feet with a sense of who I am and a love, and joy, of life. I want that for everyone on the planet.

If my story can help you work through your story in any way, and make you have a more joyful, fulfilling life, then it was worth every bit of suffering for me, for that to happen. That’s really the healing, ultimately. It is the healing we do for each other when we tell our stories because it helps us feel a lot less alone.

We all have these stories to tell. We have all lived through treacherous moments in our lives, great loss, stupidity, joy, and success. We need to share these stories because we connect with each other. The only way we’re going to get through the next 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 years on this planet is by connecting to each other as human beings.

Not ideologies, not profit motives, not how big our bank accounts are, but just humans-to-humans. When we tell our stories, that instantly happens. So, I am very honored to be a member of the tribe that tells the stories of the humans, and to have been able to tell my story.

Thank you for your time, Kelly.

Thank you, darling. It was lovely.

I appreciate that.

Bibliography

Carlin, K. (2015). A Carlin Home Companion: Growing Up with George. New York, NY: St. Martin’s Press.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Actress; Internet Radio Host; Monologist; Producer; and Writer.

[2] Individual Publication Date: March 1, 2017 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-kelly-marie-carlin-mccall-part-one; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2017 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] M.A., Jungian Depth Psychology, Pacifica Graduate Institute; B.A. (Magna Cum Laude), Communication Studies, University of California, Los Angeles.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall (Part Four) [Online].March 2017; 13(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-kelly-marie-carlin-mccall-part-four.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, March 22). An Interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall (Part Four). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-kelly-marie-carlin-mccall-part-four.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall (Part Four). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A, March. 2017. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-kelly-marie-carlin-mccall-part-four>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-kelly-marie-carlin-mccall-part-four.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A (March 2017). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-kelly-marie-carlin-mccall-part-four.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall (Part Four)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 13.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-kelly-marie-carlin-mccall-part-four>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall (Part Four)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 13.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-kelly-marie-carlin-mccall-part-four.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 13.A (2017):March. 2017. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-kelly-marie-carlin-mccall-part-four>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall (Part Four) [Internet]. (2017, March; 13(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-kelly-marie-carlin-mccall-part-four.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2017-03-15

An Interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall (Part Three)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 13.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Nine)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: March 15, 2017

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,976

ISSN 2369-6885

an-interview-with-kelly-carlin-b-a-m-a

Abstract

An interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall, B.A., M.A. She discusses: first time feeling truly fathered; drug abuse and misuse in the home, and being able to roll joints not “very well”; self-medicating with marijuana at age 14; baring souls with someone older, Andrew Sutton; helping her mother as her mother used to help people; and caring for strangers.

Keywords: Brenda Hosbrook, care, Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall, marijuana.

An Interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall, B.A., M.A.: Actress, Internet Radio Host, Monologist, Producer, and Writer (Part Three)[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been edited for clarity and readability.*

13. That makes me think of Terry. If I can be indulged, it was one paragraph (and a sentence):

A few days later Terry showed up at our house. I’m not sure why he came – to apologize, to charm me again, to tell me I was a whore? My dad saw him outside the gate at the end of our long driveway. He went inside his office and grabbed his baseball bat. As my dad marched down the driveway toward Terry, he said, “You come near my daughter again, I’ll bash your fucking skull in.”

It was the proudest day of my life – my father had finally fathered me. (Carlin, 2015, p.100)

Yup, says it all.

(Laugh)

(Laugh)

Was that your first experience of feeling truly fathered, or were there other minor events that you did actually feel fathered?

Obviously, my dad would get things for me, or protect me, or stand up for me with my mother at times. He was always teaching me things about the world – politics and the cultural stuff, the ethical/moral compass things. But as far as being a dad who is like “Who are you going out with? Where are you going? Are you going to be safe?”

He would check in with me about stuff like that, but there was never any sense of fear that they would take anything away, like driving privileges, or search my room for drugs. There wasn’t that type of fathering going on, which is what I mean in that comment. The protective father who wants to create boundaries, teach me boundaries, and show me what is safe and what is not safe. That hadn’t shown up in my life up to the point. It had become a type of crisis point.

14. There was not only drug abuse and misuse, depending on term of preference, within the household. In a way, there was an involving you in it. From a young age, you were able to roll and clean cannabis/marijuana.

I couldn’t really roll joints very well, but I definitely cleaned the weed. By watching people, I learned how to roll a joint. When it came to adolescence and knowing how to roll a joint, I was way, way, way ahead of my peers!

(Laugh)

(Laugh)

Because I had been studying it for quite a long time.

(Laugh)

(Laugh)

15. You started smoking marijuana/cannabis at age 14.

That’s when I started self-medicating. I started smoking cigarettes, then started stealing roaches from my dad’s stash. That’s when I started altering my consciousness in order to feel something I didn’t want to feel anymore.

16. Then you met Andrew Sutton, who was a 29-year-old cocaine-snorting mechanic. More or less, as far as I got from reading that part of the book, you bared your souls to one another. What was like to you to be able to be open with someone who was older? When a lot of the time, you were trying to be the good kid.

Yes, it was very heady stuff. Andrew was 10 or 11 years older than me. There was looking up to him with a father-figure part of it. The fact of him being a peer. The sexual relationship, the bonding over the drugs, and the illicit part of that.

Then there were the complications that went along with it, which was ridiculous, crazy, and insane. It showed my very poor choice-making skills at that time. I was not prepared for adulthood and those relationships. My lack of self-worth and the inability to have any healthy boundaries in a relationship with a man. I was so vulnerable in that moment.

Being able to finally bare my soul to someone of the opposite sex was very powerful because all of the other boys in my life, even though they were friends or boyfriends, when you’re in high school you’re trying to pretend that you’re a great person and desperately be liked and loved, it was tough to bare who I really was, and my pain around my childhood and upbringing.

Being able to have someone to relate that to who someone had their own pain in adolescence was a profound bonding for me, it created a safe space. That was our connection initially, Andrew and I. It was the sense of safety and intimacy around that stuff. Unfortunately, it was a ridiculously insane, chaotic situation for me to get into. I didn’t have any ways to separate from it.

All I saw was someone who saw me, adored me, and loved me unconditionally. That was more important than all of the things I was saying, “Yes,” to. I was in way over my head.

17. With that relationship, the sex and cocaine and orgasms were sufficient reason to keep him around too, but you did quit, eventually. Up to the present, is there any substance use or misuse, if I may ask?

I drink alcohol. I smoke weed. I don’t smoke a lot of weed. I don’t drink a lot of alcohol. I haven’t used cocaine since 1988. I know it’s around at parties, but I don’t use it. It is not part of my scene. I walked away from it. I am very, very cognizant of alcohol in my life because of my mother.

Alcohol was never really my thing. I don’t really like it that much. I do smoke one hit of pot once per week, if a friend is around or there is a party. I am lucky. I am one of those people that doesn’t have a substance abuse problem.

I have a way of being in a relationship with it, in a conscious way. I can quit for a year or two at times because I find it distracts me. However, everyone has their relationship with it. Others need to completely abstain. Others can have a beer with dinner. I am lucky to be one of those people.

I am lucky to be alive too. The cocaine, it is a dangerous drug. Any form of it. Any offspring of it: meth, crystal, and others. It is a scary drug. It completely hijacks your brain, the dopamine loop. It makes you a slave to it.

It is meaningless to me today. It doesn’t define me. I see other people, who have the genetics for it. It is scary to watch people teetering and playing with that dangerous stuff. I am blessed. It has been 30 years next year since I have seen cocaine.

(Laugh)

That’s crazy.

18. Your mom didn’t bring home stray dogs, but brought home stray people.

(Laugh)

She was a rescuer.

Later, she got breast cancer. As she was healing, you became her nurse. To me, it seems like you took on the role that she had performed for others throughout her life.

Oh, yes! When I brought Andrew into my life, that was my first rescue. I figured if I married Andrew that he would get his life together. That was the co-dependence in me. Nursing my mother was different, this rescuing thing is a pathology.

It is a way of not having healthy boundaries around creating these situations. Being my mom’s nurse, what’re you going to do? It was difficult, but you can’t say, “No.” It’s your mother. No matter how terrifying it is.

19. What is the motivation there – to care for strangers that are going through any myriad circumstances that you may or may not know at the time?

It is a deep need to alleviate other people’s suffering. That motivates it, ultimately. At times, it is wanting to heal our own suffering. Maybe, it is easier to do it outside of ourselves with other people. Sometimes, if you get motivated by feeling wanted and needed, that’s part of the co-dependent relationship.

The rescuer role is the one that feels high and mighty because they’re doing the rescuing. However, if that’s unconsciously motivating it, over time, it will become oppressive – the helping. There’s a way to be of service. There’s a way of encroaching your own pathology when you’re helping them.

When I went Andrew went into rehabilitation, the first family therapy group session I attended, I told my story. The therapist said, “You’re sicker than he is.” I took great offence to that because A) I was the victim to his insanity and B) I had taken the high road by being there for him and caretaking for him.

She pointed out the victim and the caretaker role were just as pathological. When it is unconscious, all of that behaviour is not healthy because you’re being run by your unconscious scripts. It is only when you can own up and take care of yourself first, and be healthy around that, then you can take care of others in a way that is healthy and real.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Actress; Internet Radio Host; Monologist; Producer; and Writer.

[2] Individual Publication Date: March 15, 2017 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-kelly-marie-carlin-mccall-part-three; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2017 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] M.A., Jungian Depth Psychology, Pacifica Graduate Institute; B.A. (Magna Cum Laude), Communication Studies, University of California, Los Angeles.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall.

Bibliography

  1. Carlin, K. (2015). A Carlin Home Companion: Growing Up with George. New York, NY: St. Martin’s Press.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall (Part Three) [Online].March 2017; 13(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-kelly-marie-carlin-mccall-part-three.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, March 15). An Interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall (Part Three). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-kelly-marie-carlin-mccall-part-three.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall (Part Three). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A, March. 2017. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-kelly-marie-carlin-mccall-part-three>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-kelly-marie-carlin-mccall-part-three.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A (March 2017). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-kelly-marie-carlin-mccall-part-three.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 13.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-kelly-marie-carlin-mccall-part-three>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 13.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-kelly-marie-carlin-mccall-part-three.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 13.A (2017):March. 2017. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-kelly-marie-carlin-mccall-part-three>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall (Part Three) [Internet]. (2017, March; 13(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-kelly-marie-carlin-mccall-part-three.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

71 Comments
2017-03-08

An Interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall (Part Two)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 13.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Nine)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: March 8, 2017

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,385

ISSN 2369-6885

an-interview-with-kelly-carlin-b-a-m-a

Abstract

An interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall, B.A., M.A. She discusses: the preference for developing in non-survival mode; graduate training and the explicit formation of the narrative; the refuge of pets; Montessori schooling and time with age cohort peers rather than adults; clinging to “the Saint” Miss Morgan; feeling of lack of control as a child; and Kelly’s dad in conversation with Jon Stewart on Kelly’s grandmother (paternal side) wanting to control her father’s life, and the lack of oversight and control from Kelly’s parents for her.

Keywords: Jon Stewart, Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall, Montessori, parenting, school.

An Interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall, B.A., M.A.: Actress, Internet Radio Host, Monologist, Producer, and Writer (Part Two)[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been edited for clarity and readability.*

7. Looking back, would you have preferred it to have been a different way in terms of how the bonding happened rather than in a survival mode?

Of course!

(Laugh)

(Laugh)

Who wouldn’t? There’s a time in healing your personal story. Yes, you want it to be different. You wish it had been different. You’re mad that it wasn’t different. You’d do anything to have it be different. You cross your arms and don’t get on with life because you’re almost demanding it to be different, but it can’t be.

That’s not the way life works. Things are what they are. The past is the past. People did the best they could in that moment. So, you can’t live in regret. Otherwise, you’re not living your life. You’re stuck in the past. That’ll never change. You are kind of a zombie, if you’re living in the past.

That’s why in writing my book I knew telling one’s personal story, whether to a therapist over a certain amount of years, through art, through memoir, or whatever it is, is really healing. It is important to tell your stories to be able to put them down and walk away from them at some point.

8. Did your graduate training allow you put that narrative into an actual structure and then be able to put it down?

Yes, it was a couple of things. I had been doing deep work. I was in therapy for some time. I had perspective on it before I went to grad school. I began to get my hands around the narrative of my life with that. Grad school was a place to help me start from the beginning and walk through all of the developmental stages of my life as a psychologist, but then apply them to my own life – which is the thing you do in your first year of grad school.

You go through all of your baggage, work through the theories, and do the work around them. So, when you enter a room with a client, you are not bringing your baggage with you. If you do bring your baggage with you, you can see it. You can see how to separate from it. There was a deep healing for me in grad school around all of this stuff. A lot of my confusion and pain around the chaos part of my life was validated.

It was held up as, “Yes, this is what happens to little kids when their parents aren’t present emotionally or physically.” These are the ways in which that can manifest in your adulthood, the choices you can make, in your worldview, and how you see yourself. Your sense of power. Your sense of autonomy. Your sense of self-responsibility. It was very illuminating for me. I highly recommend it!

(Laugh)

(Laugh)

I think everyone should spend a year of their life learning this stuff, going through their life story. It would be incredibly healing for the world. There would probably be a lot less crazy people running things if we all did this.

(Laugh)

9. Were pets ever a refuge for you? You had plenty of pets, named by your dad: “Squeezix the parakeet, Frick & Frack the hermit crabs, Bogie the Maltese terrier, and a black cat named Beanie, which came with the house.” (Carlin, 2015, p. 19) Was there any connection, from your perspective as a kid, with these animals?

Oh, yes! God yes! We always had pets, always had dogs and cats. We had birds for a bit too. We always had pets in the house. I think pets were a focal point of love in the house for all three of us. We could connect through the pets. We all did voices. My dad and I always did voices of the cats and dogs, and everything. I still do.

My husband and I do also. Yes, pets were always essential. They are a bridge for people. They hold for us our unconditional love and a way of connecting when intimacy, emotional intimacy not physical intimacy, is harder to come by in houses, especially where there’s addiction or mental health issues. Everyone is walking on eggshells. It is a place for everyone to come together and be loved. We loved our critters. We did.

10. Age 4, you went to a Montessori school. A school to learn at the student’s pace. The purpose was to take you away from time with adults, and to spend more time with more age-appropriate peers. Was the time there with age-appropriate peers better than, from your perspective, the previous times with adults?

Not for the first few weeks, I had horrible separation anxiety. I was terrified by the whole idea and experience. My parents wanted me to be around kids and saw how smart I was. I was a sponge. They wanted to make sure my mind had everything it could to soak in.

Once I settled in past the social anxiety part, in school, I loved school. I loved, loved learning. I am a sponge. I take it all in. I love to master things. I got friends too, but with my, as I think all kids feel, I worried about “Am I doing this right? Do I fit in? Am I cool? Am I popular? Am I going to make an ass of myself?”  I was pretty normal that way in feeling I always belonged there socially.

However, from my perspective looking back and talking to teachers I had in the past, they said, “You were the most popular. Everyone loved you. You were a leader.” I never saw myself that way. I guess I was, but I felt like an outsider. Also, I had to manage this dual life with my parents, for quite a few years from age 7-12, who were hopped up on drugs. It was tough to go to school and pretend everything was okay all of the time. There was a dualistic life that was part of that false pretend life being fed by that too.

11. Also, you went from clinging to your mom to clinging to Miss Morgan. The woman you described as a “Saint.” (Carlin, 2015, p.25)

Yes, that’s what you do when you’re looking for a transitional object. That’s what they call it in psychology. You can’t have your mother, so you have to have your blankey or whatever it is. Thankfully, this teacher was lovely, and let me stay on her lap and stay right next to her. Until, I felt comfortable enough to trust my surroundings.

12. You mentioned this as feeling, with respect to wanting to master school, “the charge of having power over something” (Ibid.). Between the transitional object of clinging to Brenda, to then clinging to Miss Morgan, and then wanting to master school to have power over something, both of those speak volumes to a lack of control you felt in your own life up to 4 years old as well as not knowing what to attach to – other than another caring object or person, in this case Miss Morgan.

Yes! Yes, we moved to LA. My mom was falling apart. You need a safe place for the storm. School became that for me. Having a good mind, and being able to master school, and soak it all up, it was a sense of control and power. Thank God! Thank God I had that, who knows where I’d be without that? All of us have to find some sense of stability internally in order to develop into adults. Without that, there can be some serious mental health issues. Attachment disorders and all sorts of things.

I had this true foundation. I knew my mother deeply loved me. I knew my father deeply loved me. I didn’t have a sense of being thrown out on the curb and not loved, but things felt very unstable at home because dad was on the road so much and mom was having intense anxiety and panic attacks. She was self-medicating with alcohol. Thank God, I had 6 hours or so a day with a stable adult to connect to, and an environment that fed me.

13. Your father, in an interview with Jon Stewart, described his mother as wanting to control his life. ([George Carlin Official YouTube Channel], 2016, 3:00). You describe your father controlling whether your mom worked or not, and heavily leaning towards the latter option.

Yet, what I am getting from you a little bit is there was almost the opposite, a lack of control, but that might be because he was on the road and gone so much. I want to get your perspective on if you felt as if there was a lack of oversight and control of you from your parents.

My mother had to be both mother and father because he wasn’t home. She resented that. My dad really didn’t know how to be an adult, let alone a parent. He didn’t have a father himself. He was raised by a single mom and rebelled against her authority. He didn’t want to impose her controlling nature on anybody.

The only thing he asked my mother not to do was work because his mother worked and he had no one around, so he wanted to make sure one parent was around the home with me. My parents were busy getting screwed up on drugs and alcohol. My father was busy with his career. Because I was very precocious and a good girl, there didn’t have to be a lot of parenting.

I didn’t create a lot of a challenge around that. I was great at school. I was a great student. I did what I was told. When there is a lot of chaos in your environment, at least as a kid, my reaction was needing to be in charge of myself. I needed to figure out the rules by myself and live by them. I could discern the rules pretty easily. I was pretty smart. I knew what it was to be a good kid, so I was. My mother used to say, “Thank God, we didn’t have a boy.” She didn’t know what might’ve happened if I’d been a boy.

(Laugh)

Because in some ways my dad didn’t know how to father, but he did. He did the best he could. He did it his way. He didn’t know how to father like the regular run-of-the-mill guy. He might’ve been great at it if I’d been a boy. But who knows? But that laissez-faire parenting became more dramatic and more of an issue around my adolescence, when I really did need parenting and guidance.

My parents were pretty hands-off with me. That was the circumstance of it. They were always there in the end. They were there for lots of things. They protected me, in some ways. They paid for everything. They put me in good schools. They made sure I had what I wanted, but they weren’t good at setting limits with me. That would have been helpful in adolescence, but it didn’t happen with me.

Bibliography

  1. [George Carlin Official YouTube Channel]. (2016, August 16). Jon Stewart Interviews George Carlin. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCGGWeD_EJk.
  2. Carlin, K. (2015). A Carlin Home Companion: Growing Up with George. New York, NY: St. Martin’s Press.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Actress; Internet Radio Host; Monologist; Producer; and Writer.

[2] Individual Publication Date: March 8, 2017 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-kelly-marie-carlin-mccall-part-two; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2017 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] M.A., Jungian Depth Psychology, Pacifica Graduate Institute; B.A. (Magna Cum Laude), Communication Studies, University of California, Los Angeles.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall (Part Two) [Online].March 2017; 13(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-kelly-marie-carlin-mccall-part-two.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, March 8). An Interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall (Part Two). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-kelly-marie-carlin-mccall-part-two.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A, March. 2017. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-kelly-marie-carlin-mccall-part-two>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-kelly-marie-carlin-mccall-part-two.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A (March 2017). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-kelly-marie-carlin-mccall-part-two.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 13.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-kelly-marie-carlin-mccall-part-two>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 13.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-kelly-marie-carlin-mccall-part-two.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 13.A (2017):March. 2017. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-kelly-marie-carlin-mccall-part-two>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall (Part Two) [Internet]. (2017, March; 13(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-kelly-marie-carlin-mccall-part-two.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2017-03-01

An Interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall (Part One)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 13.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Nine)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: March 1, 2017

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,074

ISSN 2369-6885

an-interview-with-kelly-carlin-b-a-m-a

Abstract

An interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall, B.A., M.A. She discusses: feeling not quite in place; the “shadow self” and graduate training; Joseph Campbell; perpetuation of limitations for people in society; Brenda Hosbrook’s drastic story with Ken, Brenda meeting Kelly’s father, and the ways family narratives become their own mythology; and heartwarming stories and connecting with her father.

Keywords: Art Hosbrook, Brenda Hosbrook, Joseph Campbell, Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall.

An Interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall, B.A., M.A.: Actress, Internet Radio Host, Monologist, Producer, and Writer (Part One)[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been edited for clarity and readability.*

1. Let’s start with a little bit of your background, you mother, Brenda Hosbrook, felt “like a stranger in her own life” (Carlin, 2015, p. 6). She was like her father, Art Hosbrook, who was a jazz musician in the 1930s (Ibid.). Alice Hosbrook sensed the wild nature in Brenda.

So, she kept her on a “tight leash,” except for the childhood boy, Ken. The approved of boy next neighbour. I find that amusing. You can’t necessarily make that stereotype up for a real situation: good boy next door. Did you feel, as with your mother as a stranger in her own life, as not quite in place?

Yes, absolutely, I am guessing most people feel that way, and it takes a lifetime to feel as though you’re living life in an authentic way. I think we are all trying to figure out what the rules are as a kid, in general, and then there’s the family rules, and the parts of ourselves that have to hide from the world because they are deemed “unacceptable,” whether it’s your chaotic self, or your anger, mischief, or sexuality. All of that stuff.

Robert Bly has this great essay called The Long Bag We Drag Behind Us (Bly, n.d.). It is about how, from day 1, we take parts of or aspects of ourselves to hide them in a bag behind us. By the time we get to adulthood, we are dragging this bag behind us, which are now shadow parts because we are not allowed to have them. So, yes, I think so. I did feel like a stranger a lot of the time in my own life.

2. The terminology you used there was the “shadow self.” Does that come from your graduate training?

The shadow is an aspect of the personality that Carl Jung talks about. In the end, it is the part that we don’t like. It is the part we don’t approve of, which means it is the part society does not approve of. We tend to push that behind us. What we put out front is our persona, the good version of our self.

The upstanding citizen version of our self. Our true nature, and a lot of us have the same stuff in our shadow, which is a lot of stuff society rejects and tends to be the same list over, and over, again. It is something that keeps leaking its way out. We like to pretend it’s not there. It is the ‘emperor with no clothes’ thing.

3. Is this a Joseph Campbell thing?

Joseph Campbell was someone who stood on the shoulders of people like Carl Jung and Sigmund Freud. Carl Jung is the one that talked about archetypes and mythology, where the archetypes are forms of thinking, forms and ways of being, e.g. the father and mother archetype. We are hardwired for them. We know how to be a father, instinctively. We know how to be a mother, instinctively.

We know how to be these things. There’s the child. There’s the Devil. There’s all of these forces inside of us. Campbell studied this, and the various philosophies and put them together. He showed the same archetypes and forms across every civilization and every culture. He began to connect the dots, specifically around those things. He was a great thinker.

4. In the United States, women got the right to vote in 1920. 1918 in the UK. 1919 in Canada, depending on the area. In the early part of the book, Alice, your mother’s mother, said, “Women don’t go to college,” to your mother, Brenda, after she earned a full scholarship to go to Ohio Wesleyan to study piano.

Yes, yes.

I don’t know if that is perpetuation of limitations for people in society. Do you think that statement by Alice to Brenda was reflective of that?

Yes, this was in Dayton, Ohio. In Alice’s family, no one went to college, especially a woman. Maybe, a few men went to college, but it was a working class family. Women could only be teachers, nurses, or wives. You were only a teacher or nurse until you got married, basically, and then you were an old maid.

(Laugh)

(Laugh)

Those were your only choices, in the Midwest, certainly. When you’re not given a lot of choices, and people around you are not given a lot of choices, you can’t visibly see those choices, even with my mother earning this scholarship. It is limited thinking. My mother was someone hoping to break free from her small, Midwest life – very shackled and imprisoned by that.

5. Ken, the good boy next door, impregnated her. They got married. She had a miscarriage of twins. They divorced. All by the age of 20.  For those growing up in more recent generations, that is a drastic story.

Yes, yes.

Later on, your father asked Art, your grandfather, to marry your mom in the Spencer’s Steak House urinal in Dayton, Ohio. (Carlin, 2015, p. 9)

Yes.

(Laugh)

(Laugh)

These are dramatic experiences for families, especially because, in a way, family narratives can become their own mythology, where these are the stories families tell each other.

Absolutely, 100%, 100%. Yes.

Were these percolating in your mind when you were coming up?

The reason I wrote the book was because I knew I had such great stories to tell.[5] Everything we learn about our parents when we’re children we use to try to figure out how the world works. I only knew my mother’s experience of her childhood through her eyes.

I didn’t know it through her mother’s eyes, or her father’s eyes for that matter. Those apocryphal tales that your parents tell you when you’re first meeting them. It shapes your identity as a child, as a family member, and how you see the world, and what are the rules and who breaks them.

We’re trying to figure it all out. I know that my mom’s story about how her mom was so controlling of her did affect me. I didn’t understand the connection between that and my mother’s pain and alcoholism growing up. I was a kid, but I did feel the oppression.

The same oppression from her mother. Not necessarily from my mother, but through my mother because she hadn’t worked through it herself enough. She carried so much bitterness and rage about it all. The oppression acted through me too, and affected how I comported myself in the world as a powerful woman. Or, at first, not a powerful woman.

6. There are numerous little heartwarming stories from when you were young throughout the text. The ‘stink pot or baby doll’ game. (Carlin, 2015, p. 11) Of course, you were never stink pot. I think about the time your parents got Hobo Kelly to send you Colorforms. (Carlin, 2015, p. 22) You cherished watching your father pack, with OCD qualities, before leaving town, for 2-3 weeks. (Carlin, 2015, p. 31)

But at the same time, my feeling that I get from that is a desperate sense of wanting to connect in any way possible. With respect to those moments, where there was genuine family time and connection, and then the other times when there wasn’t, but you made up your own connection through simple observation of your father packing and paying attention to the minute details such as the OCD nature of it, there was – I hate the cliché – a hole needing to be filled. You were, as children are more creative, finding more ways to fill that.

Yes, I think it’s always difficult to connect with fathers. Fathers may be different nowadays, but, certainly back then, fathers were the ones who left the house, didn’t do the parenting, and brought home the pay cheque. There is that natural hole and void that was around for kids to that time, besides my own personal history.

But having my dad on the road for so long, all of the time. He was gone 1/2 to 2/3 of the year. That is a long time without a dad. Add to this the complication of my mother’s alcoholism and mental health issues (anxiety and depression), it created times without true connection. We were in survival mode. Luckily, the first couple years of my life had deep bonding, which is essential for deep connection.

So, the deep connection was there on some deep level, but from age 3 onward, until my mom’s sobriety in some ways, into my adulthood there was a need for deep connection. There was a melancholy around it. From there, my dad’s ambition and creative genius, and creative drive, was focused on the work, not on the family. There was a deep longing for connection, for all three of us.

When those moments of coming together and ordinary family moments, or even the extraordinary ones too, those bonded us. Even with the bonding of the chaos, I think created this sense of this mythology around my life. Here we are bonding over the stories like Summerfest in Milwaukee and dad getting arrested, things like that. They became funny cocktail party stories later, but there’s a deep bonding when you survive with people through harrowing moments. So, we did have deep connection in that way. A profound connection, also.

Bibliography

  1. Bly, R. (n.d.). “The Long Bag We Drag Behind Us” (excerpt) A Little Book on the Shadow. Retrieved from http://www.yin4men.com/files/bc79d63ff27ab0223807650bd56bcfe7-34.html.
  2. Carlin, K. (2015). A Carlin Home Companion: Growing Up with George. New York, NY: St. Martin’s Press.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Actress; Internet Radio Host; Monologist; Producer; and Writer.

[2] Individual Publication Date: March 1, 2017 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-kelly-marie-carlin-mccall-part-one; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2017 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] M.A., Jungian Depth Psychology, Pacifica Graduate Institute; B.A. (Magna Cum Laude), Communication Studies, University of California, Los Angeles.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall.

[5] Carlin, K. (2015). A Carlin Home Companion: Growing Up with George. New York, NY: St. Martin’s Press.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall (Part One) [Online].March 2017; 13(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-kelly-marie-carlin-mccall-part-one.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, March 1). An Interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall (Part One). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-kelly-marie-carlin-mccall-part-one.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A, February. 2017. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-kelly-marie-carlin-mccall-part-one>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-kelly-marie-carlin-mccall-part-one.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A (March 2017). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-kelly-marie-carlin-mccall-part-one.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 13.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-kelly-marie-carlin-mccall-part-one>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 13.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-kelly-marie-carlin-mccall-part-one.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 13.A (2017):March. 2017. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-kelly-marie-carlin-mccall-part-one>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Kelly Marie Carlin-McCall (Part One) [Internet]. (2017, March; 13(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-kelly-marie-carlin-mccall-part-one.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2017-02-22

An Interview with James Randi (Part Four)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 13.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Nine)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: February 22, 2017

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,967

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

An interview with James Randi. He discusses: discernment between the mere superstitious and the real, and fear of death as fundamental; government promotion of religion; secular humanism and humanism; American and a Canadian science communicators and secular humanists; previous humanists’ and science communicators’ working beginning to take effect, and the naturalness of humanism and rationalism to him; and that you have to go all of the way in concern and care for others.

Keywords: humanism, James Randi, rationalism, science communication, secular humanism.

An Interview with James Randi: Conjuror/Professional Stage Magician; Founder, James Randi Educational Foundation (JREF) (Part Four)[1]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & bibliography & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been mildly edited for clarity and readability.* 

12. Something that ties into that is discernment between the mere superstitious and the real. Knowledge of the general principles behind the phenomenon of the natural world can be anchors from which people can reason and then discern who’s full of it and who is not when they’re making a claim about reality. Does this seem correct to you?

You got to realize: from my point of view, of course, fear is what it’s all about. Fear that you’ll die some day. Hey, I’m 88. I’m not terribly worried. It looks fine to me at this moment. Tomorrow, I’ll see. But I’m not in fear of death, whatsoever. I’m going to be a bit annoyed when it comes closer, and it comes closer with every minute of every day, and every day of every year. I’ll just simply be a broken machine. An exhausted machine, busted, and it won’t work anymore. I hope to have my next book out, my 11th, by the time that happens, or die knowing that it will be published, eventually. That would be satisfactory. I’m not in a rush, by the way.

(Laugh)

I’ve had so many good friends go. Isaac Asimov, he was a very close friend of mine. Over the years, well, so many people, I cannot begin to name some of them because I’d have to leave a lot out. Many of the people that I’ve known, like Asimov, were inspirations to me. They shared my feelings about the world and how it works, and doesn’t work. We didn’t have to discuss it much because we knew what was going on in the heads of the others. Richard Dawkins, oh my goodness, I see him from time to time. Richard and I will have a lot of laughs, I’m sure, as will his friends. So, no fear of death, and no reason to fear. Death is simply the end of a long adventure. And it has been an adventure. It hasn’t all been fun, but a lot of it has. Oh my goodness, I’ve written a lot of books about it so far.

[Looks up at the ceiling]

Will you give me enough time for a 12th? I hope to have enough material for a 12th…

(Laugh)

I think my philosophy is correct, that we die and make room for other people because the Earth is getting crowded, though there’s lots of room left, lots of room left. I’m not talking myself into something here because I’ve had many close brushes with death, everything from cancer to heart attacks. I recovered very nicely, thanks to medical science – you may have heard of it. No, it’s not perfect, but it’s so damn good, it’s almost perfect. I’m very happy about that fact. I was born at just the right time, I think. I didn’t plan it that way. I had nothing to do with it.

(Laugh)

I celebrate the fact that I’ve been able to see these things happen.

13. You said earlier, “It’s about fear.”

Yes, fear of death, of not living forever. People are given that sort of mythology in order to keep them in line. It works very well. Governments promote religion because they realize it does keep people enslaved, and there’s no way of calling them back from the dead. It’s fear that that won’t happen. I never had any fear of that, at all.

14. You are a secular humanist as well. What defines secular humanism to you? What makes this almost a truism to you?

Humanism is a respect for human beings and their rights. I don’t have a definition of humanism, but I should really have one on hand. It’s the study of human beings as animals, perhaps, as intelligent animals, as the prominent biological feature of Earth. And we’ve done pretty well, done pretty well. Mind you, we’re well beyond Alley Oop. That was a comic strip when I was a kid, so, if you don’t know about Alley Oop, you’ve been badly treated.

(Laugh)

He had a pet dinosaur. I forgot the name, perhaps “Dino”. I’ve forgotten a lot of things. The old brain is filled up. It’s a bit swollen up there. I think humanism is a very good way to go. In some ways, I can see some problems with it that I wouldn’t quite agree with. It all depends on the humanists that you speak to. There are humanist organizations all around the world. Most of them do very, very well. I’ve spoken for maybe a hundred of them over the years.

All over the globe. I always enjoyed myself. I had very few fist fights.

15. There are prominent individuals. Those that are deceased and those that are not. Some come to mind. You mentioned Isaac Asimov. There are others alive such as Lawrence Krauss, Richard Dawkins, Bill Nye, and Neil deGrasse Tyson for the United States. In Canada, one of the more prominent would be someone like David Suzuki who does communicate science in a respectful and positive light.

Oh yes. I never met Suzuki. I don’t know how that never happened. I’ve been close to him so many times, but we just never bumped into each other in the halls or something. I’d like that opportunity, and I’m sure we’d hit it off very well.

16. These individuals are becoming more prominent and gaining more respect, slightly before my generation and moving into the present. It’s due to the hard work of just probably about 1 or 2 generations back that the real effects of communicating science, communicating humanistic values in the public forum has begun to take effect. Do you think people like the aforementioned are part of that increase of that number?

Yes, I hope it did have that kind of influence. I suspect that it would, because the humanist point of view and the rationalist point of view have been very attractive to me, obviously from what I’ve told you and what you’ve read. I think that if the nonbeliever percentage could be increased by 10-15% in the next 10-12 years, perhaps, I think that would be “gangbusters”.

(Laugh)

It would spread. Reason does spread, you know, finding out the truth. Look at the reaction I told you about to the An Honest Liar film. It’s been seen across Canada now. I get mail from people in Canada who have seen it, who have their own ideas on it. Not negative, I receive almost always positive, though a couple of malcontents doubted certain aspects that were stated in the film. I think humanism and that kind of living, and that kind of reasoning, is contagious. I certainly hope it is. I hope that people would adopt a humanist point of view, particularly on behalf of their families because that’s who it affects, it is not just individuals, it’s to entire families. If you can start an entire generation going with humanist ideals, you’ve achieved quite a great deal. Humanism is so natural to me, so obvious. I just wish it were a little more obvious.

17. In a way, there seems to be an obscuring of natural human sentiments. In a way, when people start focusing on a hereafter, on the otherworldly, things like souls. Things like ghosts, and angels, and demons, and so on, heaven. They become detached from what would be termed the physical things, the material things. The things in the sensory world. That seems to be where the damage comes from. I have the same feeling as you. That seems to me a truism, because society wouldn’t function if people didn’t care about other people to at least a sufficient degree.

The fact that people care about each other and other people less fortunate than themselves is an admirable and, I think, a very positive attitude to have and such, but you have to go all the way. I think you’d go all of the way, and will go all of the way, if you’ll allow it to happen. That you go so far that you look at yourself in the mirror and say, “You’re not going to live forever. You’re going to die eventually. Get to work. Do what you can, now! Don’t wait, don’t wait. I know you’re only 88 years of age, but I know you have lots of work to do.”

(Laugh)

I am fortunate medically – and genetically and such – to be alive as I am at my age. I have problems, all of the problems that you can pretty well have, but I’ve managed to beat them and science has been very much my friend. I’m fortunate in that respect. I lay that at the door of medical science. They’re to blame for my longevity. Don’t come to me and yell at me. Yell at the doctors who saved me. I think that humanism is very respectable, very positive and possibly one of the elements that will save the human race from going up in a radioactive cloud.

Thank you for your time, Mr. Randi.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Conjuror/Professional Stage Magician; Founder, James Randi Educational Foundation (JREF).

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with James Randi (Part Four) [Online].February 2017; 13(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-james-randi-part-four.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, February 22). An Interview with James Randi (Part Four). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-james-randi-part-four.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with James Randi (Part Four). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A, February. 2017. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-james-randi-part-four>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with James Randi (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-james-randi-part-four.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with James Randi (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A (February 2017). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-james-randi-part-four.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with James Randi (Part Four)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 13.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-james-randi-part-four>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with James Randi (Part Four)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 13.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-james-randi-part-four.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with James Randi (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 13.A (2017):February. 2017. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-james-randi-part-four>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with James Randi (Part Four) [Internet]. (2017, February; 13(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-james-randi-part-four.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2017-02-15

An Interview with James Randi (Part Three)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 13.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Nine)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: February 15, 2017

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,965

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

An interview with James Randi. He discusses: James Hydrick’s false claim and trick; Sylvia Browne’s and James van Praagh’s false claims and tricks; the purported spoon bending of Uri Geller; scientific education in the US; and understanding principles of certains fields and religion as the big problem.

Keywords: James Hydrick, James Randi, James van Praagh, scientific education, Sylvia Browne, Uri Geller.

An Interview with James Randi: Conjuror/Professional Stage Magician; Founder, James Randi Educational Foundation (JREF) (Part Three)[1]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & bibliography & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been mildly edited for clarity and readability.* 

7. I want to get more into the career and professional skeptic work.

Sure.

I’m sure you’ve been asked these questions a couple of hundred times. You’ve exposed fakers in the New Age, in various religious movements. You have called New Age “newage” to rhyme with sewage. James Hydrick, what was his false claim, and what was the trick behind it, in brief?

Hydrick. I feel very sorry for Hydrick. I believe he is still incarcerated because he’s not a safely sane person. He showed up on television, and I gave him a very simple test, as simple as it can get because I knew what he was doing. He was blowing on the pages of a telephone book to make them turn over. I happen to have a book called Flim-Flam!. You may have heard of it.

(Laugh)

Yes.

(Laugh)

I keep it out on the desk most of the time. I assure you.

That is an understated part of your legacy, inventing terms.

(Laugh)

Yeah, of course. The trick was having the page slightly curled at the leading edge and then Hydrick was simply blowing, and it would lift and fold back, you see. He had to break the back of the book, so to speak, a good deal, first of all. He did it very cleverly. Then he turned his head away by the time the page had started to move. That’s pretty clever, and hard to do. He learned that trick in prison because he had a violent past. He got locked up in prison for several things, which are not of importance.

When he got out, he showed the trick to somebody. They said, “That’s supernatural!” He got a couple of people to set up some sort of a temple or other. He thought, “Oh boy, this seems like a real way to break into society.” Some very wealthy people offered him some money to go ahead and start certain temples and religious movements going. Of course they didn’t understand it was a trick. They weren’t terribly smart.

So, he was on his way to doing that, and then we got on television for the test and Hydrick failed. What I did was distribute Styrofoam pellets – packing pellets – all around the edges of the book. If he were to blow like that to turn the page, you’d see – whoosh! – clearly what he was doing. Hydrick looked amused during the taping, which was in Los Angeles. We had to turn off all of the air conditioning in the TV studio. In those days, in the middle of the summer, you didn’t do that because everyone would be very unhappy. They actually had to send the studio audience to the cafeteria, then quiet the whole place down, make sure everything was still, and ask them to come in very carefully and not disturb the air currents or anything like that.

Hydrick was totally unable to do anything impressive. He walked around the thing for over 20 minutes. Now, this was taping/studio time, very expensive in those days, that was not going to be a part of the program. They’d have to edit it way down. Mark Goodson was the producer. I remember, he was walking around saying, “Money, money, money, my god! This is costing a fortune.” To have the studio two or three hours more than they needed it, was an expensive rental, but the show worked out very well for me. Hydrick was about to get very violent.  I had to have two bodyguards. Oh yeah…

Hydrick was a Kung Fu guy. Any demonstration of Kung Fu against my poor body would not be welcome. They protected me, put me in a limo to take me back to the hotel. That program made quite a stir, and Mr. Hydrick lost his sponsorship by those wealthy people who wanted to start a temple to study his wonderful powers. It’s too bad because he really was a sick man. He later got locked up for acts of violence, and he called me a few times – about twice a year. He’d ask generalized questions, but I knew what was going on. He was looking for me to make some kind of appeal for him. It was something I could not handle.

I wouldn’t know how to go about doing that sort of thing. They had decided to keep him beyond the time he was sentenced to, because he was very violent and likely to be a danger to society. I don’t know under what circumstances he is being held now. I trust that it is reasonably comfortable for him, but that’s a lost life that could have been a much more useful one. Life could have been kinder to him, but it just didn’t work out that way. That’s James Hydrick, yeah.

8. Two more prominent names come to mind, especially with your interaction with them, purported mediums and psychics like Sylvia Browne and James van Praagh. What were their false claims, and what, just in brief, are the tricks behind that?

You should get a copy of my book, Flim-Flam! The stories are told in there. But Sylvia Browne was doing readings for people, really badly. She was so bad at what she did. She would, first of all, do them by telephone. You would have to reserve time – and pay for it as much as two years in advance, to get a reading from her. She’d charge, I think, $800 or something like that to read you over the telephone. And she smoked all of the way through it. I have recordings right here, in fact, of her, that people sent me because she would give them a tape of the reading, a little cassette tape. You may remember cassette tapes.

(Laugh)

It’s very interesting to hear some of them. You can play any one of them, and you’ll hear pauses in it, her drawing on a cigarette. You can hear the crackle of the cigarette, you know.

(Laugh)

Because she’s got a mike right up against it. “Well now, dearie…” She always spoke like she had gravel in her throat. I don’t know what killed her, but I think it was throat cancer. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if that was the cause. She had a big staff working for her. She’d keep people waiting for years – literally. She’d already have the money a couple of years in advance, in many cases. She’d call them up, talk to them on the phone, and always tell them the same things. “You have to eat more so-and-so” – different foods she’d recommend to them. She’d often recommend various throat medicines, probably the ones she took for what she had.

In my latest new book, in the appendices, I’ll have a whole “reading” by her and every “puff” in the reading, as well. A very interesting woman, but absolutely cruel, savage, and very, very damaging. She got people really believing her. Some mail I got from people after they had their reading and listened to it again on the tape, then they realized just how bad it was, how absolutely without any trace of reality, or use, or any moral whatsoever. She was just a terrible person. I think, an evil person, and she made a lot of money on it. You were saying “James van Praagh”?

Yes.

James van Praagh, I think, is easily transparent. What he does is the same old thing, called “cold reading.” You say, “I’m getting an M or an R.”

(Laugh)

“M, R, maybe an N, I’m not sure.” People speak up and ask, “Martin?” and he says, “Yes, Martin, they call him Marty as far as I understand.” These people are reasonably good at it, but not good enough if you really listen carefully to what’s being said. In many cases, the written notes that the victims would send them – along with the check, of course, for the reading – would have that mentioned: “I’m going to ask you about Martin.” Van Praagh would start the conversation with “I am getting an M. I don’t know whether it is Marge, Martin, or something important. Is that it? Is that it?” This is how they do it. The people that send in the letters often forget that they wrote that part in their letter.

9. Another individual is Uri Geller, the purported spoon bender.

(Laugh)

Well, he is a spoon bender. Any fool can bend a spoon.

(Laugh)

Unless you’re a centipede or something like that, and it’s too big for you. What always astonished me about Geller, he appeared in libraries and men’s clubs and things like that, you see, and if you bring a spoon to him, he picks up the spoon, but he picks it up like this – with both hands. But hey! I’m 88 and I can pick up a dozen spoons in one hand!

Right, he’s got a prepped spoon.

Not necessarily, no. Now, I can hold a spoon in one hand, but Geller has to pick it up in both hands like this, he then turns away from you and says, “Come over here” and you see the arms, and the shoulders, go like this! And then when he turns back to you, he’s holding the spoon concealed in such a way that you can’t see it’s already bent. It’s hanging out of his hand like that, and then very slowly it appears to bend over.

In any case, it’s easily seen how he does it. He just slowly reveals the bend by concealing his hand like this, and it appears to have been bent. If you see it, it’s so obvious. But one thing about Geller: he is a very good magician. Magicians have to be aware of where people’s eyes are going. I swear, even with the glasses that I’m wearing, I see things out of the corners of my eyes, and I can see whether I’ve been twigged, which is the term for “discovered”. We know not to do it that way.

Geller is very good at that. Sometimes, he’ll just throw the spoon away and say, “No, I don’t want to do that anymore,” then he’ll walk across the room and do something else. He has now said that he does not want to be known as a “psychic” anymore, but wants to be known as “a mystifier.” That’s the term he told an audience. “A mystifier” doesn’t translate well into German, nor into Hungarian. And his character? He now says that his character has been completely changed, now that he’s a “mystifier”. Duh!

He’s very clever, no question about that, but when you – ahem! – read my 11th book called A Magician in the Laboratory, Appendix number 7 has a complete account of where two of the so-called scientists fell for Geller at Stanford Research Institute, in those days. It’s called something different today – “Stanford Research International”. They fell for it completely. They got literally – literally – millions of dollars from the government and from different agencies as well, and from the Department of Defence.

The DOD decided “There must be something to this. He must have some powers. I wonder if we could use them.” They soon found out he didn’t have any, but they’d already spent the money. Stanford Research International did very, very well off that. They’ve been happy about that ever since. If you write to them or the DOD and ask about Geller, they will not respond to you at all. They won’t answer requests for information because, I think, they’re rather hugely embarrassed over what that did to them.

Of course, they wrote books on it and everything else. They got these tens of millions of dollars in budgets to deal with. But Geller is no longer taken seriously, even in the so-called psychic world.

10. We do have accounts of just general principles. We do have surveys that do kind of take account of some countries’ level of scientific knowledge, if you take an average citizen. For instance, in the United States, belief in evolutionary theory is rather low. In Canada, it is higher by a significant margin. In the UK, it is a bit higher than in Canada.

Yes, this is something quite serious. Education with regard to science in the US has just deteriorated. It’s shameful.

11. In addition to this, people don’t need to memorize facts, necessarily, because Google and the Internet can expedite the searching of the information, but the understanding of the principles of the understanding of certain fields – evolution by natural selection, plate tectonics and continental drift, even just deep cosmic time where you’re talking about a 13.8 billion years old universe, a Big Bang cosmology universe…

…Remember that religion enters into this too. And there are many millions of people out there who believe the Earth formed 2,000 years ago. Some say 1,200 years because they want to be stupider than the other people.

(Laugh)

They have no idea how long rocks take to form, how they form, and why they come into existence. They have no knowledge of this. Religion? Religion is the evil giant here. I’m an atheist, but I’m not an atheist just because I don’t believe in this sort of thing. I searched for answers, as a kid, and the answers I got were all stupid. They asked me to just believe things. They’d hammer a Bible and say, “It’s in this book!” I’d always try to read the Bible. I didn’t understand what I was reading, and when I asked them for an explanation, they said, “You have to read a long time before you understand.” I don’t want to read books for most of my life before I find out what they really mean to say.

(Laugh)

Because books are easy to put together: verbs, adjectives, you know, nouns, that’s not too difficult to do, but that’s not the way it’s done. I’ll state that religion is stupid in the first place, in my estimation, it doesn’t hold water, at all. There is no basis for it. And evolution is an absolutely wonderful, beautiful, beautiful fact. And DNA, come on! The beautiful things we can know about the real world so overpower the superstitious end of things, in my estimation.

It’s just wonderful. The truth is much more beautiful. I can appreciate a sunset or a sunrise, though I admit that I like sunrises better than sunsets, at my age.

(Laugh)

But I can go out there and watch the clouds turning orange and whatnot, and be much at peace with the universe that I see in between the trees here in Florida. It doesn’t make it any less beautiful. It makes it more beautiful because I realize the Sun didn’t go behind the trees. No! The Earth turned away and that made the Sun appear to go away – we turned away from the Sun, it didn’t go away from us. Get that mindset going for you, that will help you understand a great deal, a great deal more. It is much more beautiful than the superstitious angle or point of view.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Conjuror/Professional Stage Magician; Founder, James Randi Educational Foundation (JREF).

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with James Randi (Part Three) [Online].February 2017; 13(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-james-randi-part-three.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, February 15). An Interview with James Randi (Part Three). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-james-randi-part-three.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with James Randi (Part Three). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A, February. 2017. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-james-randi-part-three>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with James Randi (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-james-randi-part-three.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with James Randi (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A (February 2017). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-james-randi-part-three.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with James Randi (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 13.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-james-randi-part-three>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with James Randi (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 13.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-james-randi-part-three.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with James Randi (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 13.A (2017):February. 2017. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-james-randi-part-three>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with James Randi (Part Three) [Internet]. (2017, February; 13(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-james-randi-part-three.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2017-02-08

An Interview with James Randi (Part Two)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 13.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Nine)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: February 8, 2017

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,063

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

An interview with James Randi. He discusses: education, critical thinking, Donald Trump, and varieties of infinity; An Honest Liar and response to the film; gay rights, gay equality, gay marriage, marriage to Deyvi in 2013, coming out as gay on March 21, 2010, and the Harvey Milk film.

Keywords: Deyvi, gay marriage, Harvey Milk, James Randi.

An Interview with James Randi: Conjuror/Professional Stage Magician; Founder, James Randi Educational Foundation (JREF) (Part Two)[1]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & bibliography & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been mildly edited for clarity and readability.* 

4. Ideally, a proper education in the 21st century should include logic, statistics, science, and critical thinking. Do you think that insufficient general intelligence can be a barrier or a factor that’s important for proper critical thinking throughout the lifespan in addition to not having access to those four aforementioned core aspects of what I would consider a proper education in the 21stcentury: logic, statistics, critical thinking, and science?

I think it’s made pretty evident by a lot of people I run into that just don’t have logic working for them. I think this is a lack of formal education. There’s something to be said for that, but it’s not everything. Experience in life counts a great deal too, of course. I was very fortunate to have this ability to think this way, and to make use of what I gained by that.

I was very fortunate to have wonderful teachers, high school teachers. Oh, my goodness! Miss Quail tried to teach me German, which I didn’t quite learn. I can only do ein, zwei, drei, vier, fünf, a few things like that. My physics teacher was Mr. Tovell. I never learned his first name. In school, in Canada, we never knew the first names of any of the teachers. They were Mrs., Mr., or Miss. We weren’t given that privilege or encouraged to find out. Oh yes, my mathematics teacher, Mr. Henderson and physics teacher Mr. Tovell, were my idols. I followed them around a great deal.

No, I pestered them, that’s the right terminology. I really pestered them like a bug, I guess. I asked them questions. I was doing differential calculus in grade school, as a curiosity (dy/dx). Wow, I found out that by knowing a little bit, just like in chemistry – having a little sample of a curve or some such thing, I could find out secrets of the whole thing. Wow! Things like ellipses, I could take a little piece of that and I could find out about the whole thing, find out what it could do, and how. That was wonderful, wonderful. Trigonometry was just a magical thing, a magical thing. I was good at all of that. Not just because I was bright, I don’t suppose, but out of curiosity. I had this burning, curiosity. Then I read One, Two, Three, Infinity by George Gamow. You wouldn’t know these books, I don’t think. They’re rather esoteric.

(Laugh)

Gamow taught me about the different degrees of infinity. There are different kinds of infinity, you know? Infinity means as far as you can go. I’ll give you a little workout here. Suppose we have a two-dimensional universe, like a big sheet of paper, a plane surface. It goes on to infinity in all directions and we live on that sheet of paper. What’s the number of dots that you can draw on that sheet of paper?

Infinite.

You got it! Maybe you’re okay! Yes, but now I’m going to show you a higher degree of infinity. This may surprise you. Now, we say, just drawing dots, there’s, of course, an infinite number because it goes to infinity in all directions. What would be a larger degree of infinity, in this two-dimensional universe? A larger degree of infinity by far, and you can sense this even if it doesn’t appeal to you much, at first. Ready? It’s the number of straight lines you can draw on that plane. Now, that means on a flat plane going on for an infinite length and width, though not up or down.

There would be an infinity of dots, but there would of course be a larger number of straight lines that you can draw there, of different lengths, in different directions. So, that’s a second kind, or degree, of infinity… Now, this is the heavy one: What’s the third degree of infinity? If you want to call me back, and ever want to discuss, it, then I’ll tell you, and you’ll say, “Oh, of course, of course.” It’s a wonderful answer. That’s the kind of thing that always fascinated me. I always had wonderful answers. I could look at numbers as a kid in whatever book I would buy or look at, or even in my nightly newspaper, the Toronto Daily Star. I could tell by looking up at Saturn – if it was in the sky that particular season, and I would know if I looked in my telescope – and I had a big brass refracting telescope – which was so big that it was heavy as hell – and I’d stay up late at night and look up into the night sky at Saturn, Jupiter, or the Moon. I’d go to the newspaper and find out how many moons would be there, visible, not behind the planet or in front of it, and in what direction they would be stretched out. By golly, there they were, just as the paper predicted. Of course, I could have asked for the positions of the moons 20 years in the future. But then I’d have to wait quite some time, 20 years, you see.

That can be done. It’s a wonderful discovery.

(Laugh)

It was wonderful things that really taught me, fascinated me. Then I also had a good friend, Gary Haines, who was very much scientifically interested, and a couple of others as well. We used to get together and exchange notes. I had a wonderfully exciting childhood that way.

5. Now, in a recent documentary calledAn Honest Liar…

Oh, I remember that, yes.

(Laugh)

What was the response to the film in general?

Oh! Very, very good, excellent. As a matter of fact, Deyvi and I have attended, oh, I don’t know how many showings of it. All over this country. I’ve attended showings in Denmark, Germany and in Finland in particular. It’s wonderful, the popularity of it. It’s now dubbed in nine languages, the subtitles, that is. That is quite something. It’s being seen by a lot of people, and the reaction to it has been spectacular. What’s most interesting to me and to Deyvi is that when we attend a screening of it – and we’ve done it so many times we can’t count them – at the end there’s always a Q&A. We appear on stage and answer questions. We often get the same questions, that’s how that sort of thing goes. But then when the audience actually leaves the theatre after seeing the film and the Q&A, there’s always a group of three to five, maybe seven, people who stay at the foot of the stage. We know what that’s all about, and we’re quite accustomed to it now.

One or more will look up at us and say, “You made a big change in my life.” Now, you can’t buy that. That’s not something you can purchase or you can coax somebody into saying, and they often have tears coming down their faces, because they’re the ones we reached as a result of that film, in one way or another. It could be in many different ways because of the contents of that film. Again, you can’t buy that. I hardly have to say any more about it than that. It is quite an experience to have people say that, to have them take you by the hand and say, “You changed my life.” Wow! We are very, very grateful to the producers of the film, of course.

The film has been a success. And it’s ranking very, very high. It was – I forgot – a 96% or something approval rating on Netflix or on one of them.

6. In one scene of that film, there is a clip. It has to do with you and Deyvi discussing gay marriage, which relates to gay rights, gay equality, and gay marriage itself. You were married in 2013 to Deyvi.

Yeah.

What was that experience for you? As well, that relates to, I think March 21, 2010, you came out as gay. What was the experience of coming out as well as getting married to your partner Deyvi?

Okay, that’s two different aspects of it. First of all, I was moved by seeing the Harvey Milk film. I can’t think of the name of it, maybe just “Milk”?  Harvey Milk was a minor San Francisco politician who was killed by an anti-gay. He was just shot dead. Just look up Harvey Milk, M-I-L-K, and I’m sure you’ll find it. I even have some Harvey Milk commemorative stamps in the desk here.

That was, when I saw the film, when I realized that I’d never “come out”. I’d been gay all of those years, all of my friends knew, all of my business acquaintances, et cetera, et cetera. People close to me. But I’d never “come out.” I thought, “Wait a minute, wait a minute, why am I not “out?” I was 82 or something like that then. I’m 88 now. I was a youngster then…

(Laugh)

I announced one day on my webpage. “By the way, I’m gay.” I said a few words about it. The reaction I got! I didn’t know what to expect, of course, but the reaction was wonderful. People saying, “I didn’t know, but thank you for coming out and telling us that.” It was a good move. Marriage, gay marriage, eventually became legal in Washington, D.C., to start with, and I decided I wouldn’t waste any time.

(Laugh)

(Laugh)

It was very simple. We got the certificate. It’s in a safe place, I can assure you. It was something we should’ve done anyway; you know? That is, coming out as gay and then following that up with getting married. But that need eventually came along, not too long after the time of the Harvey Milk film.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Conjuror/Professional Stage Magician; Founder, James Randi Educational Foundation (JREF).

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with James Randi (Part Two) [Online].February 2017; 13(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-james-randi-part-two.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, February 8). An Interview with James Randi (Part Two). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-james-randi-part-two.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with James Randi (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A, February. 2017. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-james-randi-part-two>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with James Randi (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-james-randi-part-two.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with James Randi (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A (February 2017). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-james-randi-part-two.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with James Randi (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 13.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-james-randi-part-two>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with James Randi (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 13.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-james-randi-part-two.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with James Randi (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 13.A (2017):February. 2017. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-james-randi-part-two>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with James Randi (Part Two) [Internet]. (2017, February; 13(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-james-randi-part-two.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2017-02-01

An Interview with James Randi (Part One)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 13.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Nine)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: February 1, 2017

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,785

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

An interview with James Randi. He discusses: geographic, cultural, and linguistic family background; IQ score of 168 as a child; and very high general intelligence, being a loner, Sir Ernest Alfred Budge, and the Toronto Public library.

Keywords: Sir Ernest Alfred Budge, family, general intelligence, James Randi, Toronto Public library.

An Interview with James Randi: Conjuror/Professional Stage Magician; Founder, James Randi Educational Foundation (JREF) (Part One)[1]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been mildly edited for clarity and readability.

1. In terms of geography, culture, and language, where does your family background reside?

(Laugh)

Well, it is quite a mixture. First of all, I’m Canadian by birth, a naturalized American, presently, as of many, many years ago. My father was born in Montreal, Canada. My mother was a resident in Quebec province, but the grandparents were more interesting. One side of my grandparents came from Austria via Denmark. So, we got around, you know.

(Laugh)

(Laugh)

The other setup was all French. I have quite a mixed heritage. My chromosomes are probably a mess. I have no idea, but it seems to have worked alright.

(Laugh)

I didn’t grow up with two heads or anything like that. The human race is able to undertake an awful lot of conflicts of that kind. I am very satisfied with the results. Some other people are, too.

2. In youth, you were given an IQ test. You scored 168.

Yeah, for some reason or other. My father worked for the Bell Telephone company in Canada. He had some of them go through certain psychological tests on me. My father mentioned to them that he thought I was a bright child. He was right, very perceptive, of course. I was already into mathematics and all such kinds of things at a very early age, just a toddler. One of my uncles took me to the David Dunlap Observatory, which was outside Toronto, Canada, where they have this, I think, 74” reflecting telescope.

My goodness! Saturn was at the top of the sky, at zenith more or less. It was just incredible. I had my eye glued to the eyepiece. I couldn’t believe what I had shimmering in front of me. This big orange ball with a yellow-orange ring around it. When they told me that light had taken so many minutes to reach my eye, I didn’t seem to think it was very mysterious. I said, “Yes, why would I want to know that?” I was just a little kid. My uncle said, “Because light travels at 186,000 miles per second.” My poor little head started to work on that. I thought, “I’ll read about it. I’ll read about it.” You know? I was so fascinated. That was a huge, huge moment of my life. It made me aware of things that are so far away, so unknown by us.

Such wonderful things out there, that we could know so very much about. That’s what got me interested in science right away. I was a child prodigy, and a polymath. My father’s office loved me. A psychologist that came along, he gave me this Stanford-Binet IQ test, and I got 168 on that. Years later, I was called upon by Mensa. Do you know what Mensa is?

Yes, I just interviewed the National Executive Chair, Deb Stone.

It’s not really a table. That’s what the word “mensa” means. In this case, it’s a whole bunch of furniture.

(Laugh)

(Laugh)

I was called by them again later when I started to do my program on WOR-radio out of New York City. I used to do an all-night radio program there – a panel show – from midnight until 5:00 – or 5:30 – in the morning.

Mensa called me and said, “Come around and do the test.” Mensa is supposed to be smart. It is supposed to be really very smart, but what they had done is gotten copies of the UK – the United Kingdom – copy of the IQ test for Mensa, and it had questions in there about pounds, shillings, and pence. Now, the average American is not going to know about that at all. They’ll have no knowledge about it in their heads. But I happened to know the system. I toyed with the idea of transferring dollars, Canadian dollars, that is, into pounds. I answered all of the questions. I guess I got them right because they asked if I could come back a week later and do the test again. I thought, “Why?” When I got there, I was sitting in a room all by myself.

I said, “What’s the problem?” They said, “You did so well on the test.” I said, “Well, it occurred to me and I mentioned to the examiner that I knew the answers to some questions that others might not know.” They looked at the thing and said, “Oh my God, we’ve got the wrong set of questions.” So, I smartened up Mensa. That’s quite a claim to be able to make, you know. Not only that, I must tell you… just an aside… have you got time? I don’t want to bore you…

I hope this is an interesting story. I was in a classroom, where they ask people to do the Mensa test. Some kid was beside me looking at the soles of his feet. I thought, “What’s going on?” Then I came to the question that he was trying to solve. They had the picture of a sole of a shoe. It asked, “Is this the bottom of a shoe or the top of a shoe? And which foot is it?” You see, you’re supposed to give them the orientation thing.

(Laugh)

He was having a hard time. He was looking at his feet in these shoes trying it figure out. I didn’t have any problem, but some people do have a problem with that kind of orientation, spatial orientation. So, I just gave him a wink and said, “Left.”

(Laugh)

I hope he didn’t fail the test because I gave him the wrong answer. I’ll never see him ever again anyway, I suspect. Anyway, I took the Stanford-Binet IQ test, twice. Then there was this at the school. There were all kinds of conflab and whatnot. I shouldn’t be taking the test and it went ahead. I got over it. I recovered from other things much worse than this, I can assure you.

3. Before we get into the meat and potatoes of the interview, I want to cover more of the background. If you take into account that very high level of general intelligence, and if you take into account the early exposure to astronomy, or astrophysics, through the observatory, do you think that this is an unusual set of experiences and abilities in terms of having a background in skepticism, or preparing you to have that future?

Well, I was a loner as a kid. I had a brother and a sister, much younger than I. I was always a loner. I enjoyed the Toronto Public Library. You have no idea. I knew that place inside and out. I even had a pass to go behind the stacks. I don’t know whether you know the terminology or not, but “the stacks” is where they store the books before they go out to the main desk for somebody to refer to.

(Laugh)

I could actually go back into the stacks. I found books by Sir Ernest Alfred Budge that you don’t know, I’m sure, or well, maybe. I learned to write my name in the cartouches, the oval things the Egyptian pharaohs did. I felt rather sexed out on that. I thought, “Gee, I can write like a king.” You know?

I was enormously curious and I slept poorly if I couldn’t go to sleep with a problem – I wanted to go to sleep with it. I found, as I do even today, if I have a problem or some kind of puzzle, then I’ll go to sleep and wake up, usually six o’clock or so now, and boom! It’s right there. I come rushing into the office here, sit at the computer, look it up, or do what I have to do with it. I solved many problems just by sleeping on them. I don’t know whether most people do that. I assume there are a fair number of people who can do that, and do it just as well.

I had the high IQ. I think it was pretty right numerically. I think it was approximately right. 160 is called genius, I think, or “near genius”. You know, I don’t even know on the Stanford-Binet test what the top score is.

There are a few record holders.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Conjuror/Professional Stage Magician; Founder, James Randi Educational Foundation (JREF).

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with James Randi (Part One) [Online].February 2017; 13(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-james-randi-part-one.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, February 1). An Interview with James Randi (Part One). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-james-randi-part-one.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with James Randi (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A, February. 2017. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-james-randi-part-one>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with James Randi (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-james-randi-part-one.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with James Randi (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A (February 2017). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-james-randi-part-one.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with James Randi (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 13.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-james-randi-part-one>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with James Randi (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 13.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-james-randi-part-one.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with James Randi (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 13.A (2017):February. 2017. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-james-randi-part-one>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with James Randi (Part One) [Internet]. (2017, February; 13(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-james-randi-part-one.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2017-01-22

An Interview with Lawrence Hill (Part Four)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 13.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Nine)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: January 22, 2017

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,799

ISSN 2369-6885

lh-5628-cropped-mar-22-15-ls

Abstract

An interview with Lawrence Hill. He discusses: success in the novels in humanization of the de-humanized; thoughts on the development of ideas about blood through non-scientific ideas as it relates to sexism; refugees crises informing The Illegal; ways the arts community can humanize the downtrodden, the desperate, the fleeing, and the suffering; family reaction to this fun and silliness, and the relationship between fun and silliness, and good prose; main message or messages of The Book of Negroes, The Illegal, Blood: The Stuff of Life, and Dear Sir, I intend to Burn Your Book.

Keywords: author, Lawrence Hill, novelist, writer.

An Interview with Lawrence Hill: Professor, Creative Writing, University of Guelph, and Author, Novelist, and Writer (Part Four)[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been mildly edited for clarity and readability.*

39. Earlier in the interview, your work, focus, and emphasis in literary work and in personal volunteer work is a humanistic perspective. I was half-right. Not half-wrong, I missed one crucial element. There is a humanitarianism. For example, The Book of Negroes and The Illegal aim to humanize the de-humanized. That is, the contextualization of the humanity of a slave and a refugee, respectively. Did these novels succeed in the humanization of the de-humanized?

I do not know if they have succeeded. I am not the best judge of my own work. Critics and readers are in a better position to judge my work. But yes, I did attempt to humanize the de-humanized in the world. Two types of people profoundly de-humanized in their experiences are those enslaved or subject to war and genocide — people forced to take refuge, often without legal documentation, in countries that don’t want them.

One of the justifications used by people who perpetuate genocide or state-sponsored oppression is to claim that the victims have impure blood, or are inferior human beings. It is almost a precondition to carrying out genocide and massive mistreatment of people. They are not the same as us. They are not human like us. They are less than us. Therefore, we can treat them badly.

In general, people hiding in countries where they do not belong – where they do not have any status as legal residents — are despised by the authorities. It is a negative thing living without legal right in a country that does not want you. You are made to feel base and less than human. You are not welcome. If you are caught, you may be deported. So how do you make a living? How do you care for your children? Who can help you if you are threatened or hurt? I tried in The Illegal and The Book of Negroes to give humanity to people whose humanity has been ignored.

40. Earlier in the interview and in the response, you mentioned the purity or impurity of blood. My favourite part of Blood: The Stuff of Life comes from discussion about misconceptions of menstruation. Those conceptions were wrong from modern scientific standards. It was used to see women as inferior. As you document, these wrong theories continue to arise. You showed non-scientific ideas can have terrible consequences. What are your thoughts on the development of ideas about blood through non-scientific ideas as it relates to sexism?

I do not know if we can blame sexism on Aristotle, but he did fulminate about the supposed inferiority of women’s blood and speculate about the reasons women’s menstrual blood makes them inferior to men

As far as I know, the Spanish Inquisition in Medieval Spain represents the first time that a state attempts to link the ideas of blood purity and race and uses this vile connection to perpetuate genocide, torture and deportation.

During the Spanish Inquisition, thousands of Jews and Muslims were burned at the stake, dispossessed or deported because their blood was deemed impure in relation to the reigning Catholic monarchs. Since that time, over and over again we have drawn upon absolute evil notions of blood to ‘whip up’ hatred and justify mistreatment of those that we wish to subjugate.

41. If you look at the early 20th century, we have The Holocaust. Similarly, if we look at the early 21st century, we have a singular tragedy in the Syrian refugee crisis. 12,000,000 Syrians are refugees, or more. By comparison with the total Canadian population, that is about 1/3 of Canada, at least. That rhetoric of those mentioned and unstated can be damaging to people in a similar manner as with blood or on being a ‘real [fill in the blank]’ (American, Canadian, and so on). These are individual human beings going through extraordinary circumstances.

You worked for the Ontario Welcome House at Toronto Pearson International Airport welcoming refugees at age 16.  My sense is deep empathy for refugees from you. Also, something unstated about them. This experience never leaves them. That is, it is important to get compassion right the first time. Related to The Book of Negroes, Aminata’s life is marked forever by the experience of being stolen and enslaved. Her entire travels, life story, and narrative of being taken against her will out of Bayo is ever after marked by this. This was important for The Illegal with Keita Ali as well. How did this and the current Syrian refugee crisis inform the foundation for this novel as the events in Syria progressed?

The refugee crisis in Syria did not inform the writing of The Illegal. Like many Canadians and most people around the world, I was not aware of the buildup of refugees in Syria when I wrote the novel. The novel was finished well before we talked openly in the West, about that particular refugee crisis. However, there were many other refugee crises in the world and they did inform The Illegal.

42. We have images of the Vietnamese woman fleeing napalm bombs, Aylan Kurdi, and so on. The phenomenon of genocide neglect is real. Individual images and stories move hearts more than statistics and news reports. How might the arts community humanize the downtrodden, the desperate, the fleeing, and the suffering?

There is a role for every type of person in talking about the downtrodden and the suffering, and in this case the plight of refugees. There is a role for great humanitarians in the field attempting to alleviate immediate suffering in refugee camps. There are advocates working for organizations. They speak up. They tell us the results of studies. There are activists and university professors.

There are lawyers. There are politicians learning a great deal about the plight of refugees. There are endless numbers of organizations from the United Nations onward. They produce reports for the public to read about it. There are people and organizations with things to share. There are journalists. They do a great job bringing the information about the world to us.

There is narrative too. Artists can more intensely, efficiently, and with more ardor, passion, and success than a typical historian, journalist or university professor excite and trigger the imagination. The artist is capable of taking somebody by the collar and saying, “Look at this person. Behold this humanity!”

The role of the artist is to connect with the humanity of the individuals perceiving the art. It is to excite and stir and provoke people.

It is the work that I do in life. It is my contribution. I do not want to overstate it. I do not want to understate the role of the artist. The artist is not unlike the rabbi, the imam, or the priest. A person who evokes the story of humanity to evoke or elicit faith. We all need story to understand ourselves. We need narrative to understand the world and our place in it.

Some of us look to religion. Others look to art for the same thing: guidance. For words that tell us how to be, remind us of the deeper truer values, that set us on the right path. Religion plays a similar role in satisfying a fundamental need to be told a story, how to be, and how to be good in the world.

43. In the Hill household, you are known as the broom dancer, especially to some good R&B music. You mentioned the playful tone of A.A. Milne’s Disobedience. What R&B music? What is the family reaction to this fun and silliness? What is the relationship between fun and silliness, and good prose?

All great R&B music whether Sam Cooke, Aretha Franklin, and everything in between. There were several forms of music that dominated my childhood: jazz, blues (thanks to my mother and father), and R&B music. R&B music was ascendant as I entered into the teenage years, which was natural for anyone in my generation. I’m 59. It was a musical household.  I played poorly.

My brother went on to become a professional musician. My parents weren’t musicians. However, they played music in the house and sang all the time. R&B, jazz, and blues were staples of our musical expression in the living room and the kitchen in the household. It affected all of the children. My brother, sister, and I were affected profoundly. It emerges in our work too.

Playfulness and silliness is vital. You could not love well without being relaxed and able to be playful. You cannot learn language well if you’re too uptight and unwilling to make mistakes. One key to learning new languages is willingness to make mistakes and make a fool of yourself. Of course, if you’re a child or an infant, you do not need to worry about those things. You haven’t learned those worries.

You have to relax to love well. You have to relax to learn language. In my experience, you have to relax to produce good art. You have to be able to be fun, silly, playful, and to rejoice in life in all of its forms.

If you do not relax, you will not get the most out of your mind. As a writer, you should be rejoicing in human play and the play of language.

I tend to be too serious most of the time. So, people like to see me fool around, dance with brooms, and play with and entertain children – who are now grown. They still like to see it.  My father was an incredibly serious man in his role as a human rights activist and historian.[5] He would wind down by watching Westerns, boxing, or track-and-field on television, maybe football.

He would holler at the TV. He needed to relax to be able to go back the next day to work that was often soul crushing. Most people who have healthy balance in life would appreciate and need to be silly and playful. It takes a certain amount of trust to know that the people around you will not judge or despise you because you are letting your guard down in being playful and silly.

Without that, there’s no hope for humanity.

(Laugh)

44. If we take The Book of Negroes, The Illegal, Blood: The Stuff of Life, and Dear Sir, I intend to Burn Your Book, you more well-known works at least. What is the main message or set of messages that you wish to get across?

I always have trouble answering that type of question. I do not think about the message with a capital “M” when I write a work of fiction. Let’s set aside non-fiction for a minute, that is a little different. Readers do not like to be preached at or to be told what to think or feel. One stance to take as a writer is to assume that your reader is smarter than you. The reader does not need to be lectured on how to read or interpret things.

People come to their own conclusions. Present the story that you are able to present. Most discriminating readers react negatively to being held by the hand and told how to read, and having everything explained to them. It is dangerous to come to the job with a message to hammer into the heads of your, in my case, readers.

I do not begin writing a novel with the idea of disseminating a set of messages. Most writers of fiction hope that their messages will be a happy byproduct of drama. In my fiction, I meditate on the resilience of the human spirit and the miracle of being caring and loving even after suffering abuses of the worst kinds. Millions of people continue to display that resilience today. It is not Aminata Diallo or Keita Ali alone.

Many, many of them are showing the same resilience Aminata showed in The Book of Negroes. One message is to pause and appreciate the resilience of the human spirit. I do not try to jam that into the prose or attempt to willfully insert a message. I try to write a story. I hope that somehow between the lines the reader will divine the other things.

Thank you for your time, Larry.

I thank you for your time. I have to say that I don’t think I’ve ever been interviewed by somebody who had such a profound grasp of such a wide variety of things that I’ve shared, written, or spoken about whether they are personal, professional, or things to do with my books or my family life. I’ve been quite astounded by the reach of your work and I can only imagine that you’ve invested a huge amount of time in getting your head around a person’s life and expressions, in this case mine. Thank you for that.

Bibliography

  1. A. Milne. (2016). InEncyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from https://www.britannica.com/biography/A-A-Milne.
  2. [Kelly Mark]. (2013, October 21). Hold On – Dan Hill. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFxfiWk3rT4&list=RDwFxfiWk3rT4#t=1.
  3. Hill, L. (2013). Blood: The Stuff of Life. Toronto, ON: House of Anansi Press.
  4. Hill, L. (2013). Dear Sir, I Intend to Burn Your Book: An Anatomy of a Book Burning. Edmonton, AB: The University of Alberta Press.
  5. Hill, L. (2007). The Book of Negroes. Toronto, ON: HarperCollins Publishers Ltd.
  6. Hill, L. (2015). The Illegal. Toronto, ON: HarperCollins Publishers Ltd.
  7. Hill, K. (2016). Café Babanussa: A Novel. Toronto, ON: HarperCollins Publishers Ltd.
  8. Milne, A.A. (n.d.). Disobedience. Retrieved from https://allpoetry.com/Disobedience.
  9. Ontario Ministry of Government and Consumer Services. (2016). The Freedom Seeker: The Life and Times of Daniel G. Hill. Retrieved from http://www.archives.gov.on.ca/en/explore/online/dan_hill/index.aspx.
  10. The Canadian Encyclopedia. (2016). The Canadian Encyclopedia. Retrieved from http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Professor, Creative Writing, University of Guelph; Author; Novelist; and Writer.

[2] Individual Publication Date: January 22, 2017 at www.in-sightjournal.com; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2017 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] B.A., Economics, Laval University; M.A., Creative Writing, John Hopkins University.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Lawrence Hill and photograph credit to Lisa Sakulensky.

[5] Ontario Ministry of Government and Consumer Services. (2016). The Freedom Seeker: The Life and Times of Daniel G. Hill. Retrieved from http://www.archives.gov.on.ca/en/explore/online/dan_hill/index.aspx.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Lawrence Hill (Part Four) [Online].January 2017; 13(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lawrence-hill-part-four.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, January 22). An Interview with Lawrence Hill (Part Four). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lawrence-hill-part-four.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Lawrence Hill (Part Four). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A, January. 2017. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lawrence-hill-part-four>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with Lawrence Hill (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lawrence-hill-part-four.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Lawrence Hill (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A (January 2017). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lawrence-hill-part-four.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Lawrence Hill (Part Four)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 13.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lawrence-hill-part-four>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Lawrence Hill (Part Four)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 13.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lawrence-hill-part-four.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Lawrence Hill (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 13.A (2017):January. 2017. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lawrence-hill-part-four>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Lawrence Hill (Part Four) [Internet]. (2017, January; 13(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lawrence-hill-part-four.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2017-01-15

An Interview with Lawrence Hill (Part Three)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 13.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Nine)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: January 15, 2017

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,860

ISSN 2369-6885

lh-5628-cropped-mar-22-15-ls

Abstract

An interview with Lawrence Hill. He discusses: most appealing ethical philosophy; humanistic tendencies; most appealing economic and political philosophy; reflection on Roy Groenberg and Dear Sir, I Intend to Burn Your Book: An Anatomy of a Book Burning (2013); emotion evoked from book burning; risks and benefits associated with the advent of the Internet and digitization of books; importance of freedom of speech, expression, and the press; The Book of Negroes (2007), transforming non-readers into readers, and the feeling that comes from this; means to volunteer for prisons; contents of the nightmares conveyed in The Book of Negroes; reason for the name Aminata Diallo; and The Illegal (2015) and The Book of Negroes common threads.

Keywords: Aminata Diallo, author, blood, Lawrence Hill, novelist, prisons, Roy Groenberg, writer.

An Interview with Lawrence Hill: Professor, Creative Writing, University of Guelph, and Author, Novelist, and Writer (Part Three)[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been mildly edited for clarity and readability.*

27. What ethical philosophy most appeals to you?

I don’t have an answer in my back pocket.

(Laugh)

(Laugh)

Clearly, we can draw a great inspiration from the great religious traditions. Not harming people, and showing respect and love is a great start.

28. That sounds humanistic to me. Does that seem accurate to you?

Is that opposed to religion?

There’s humanism in and of itself.

Yes, that is accurate. It is possible to borrow, embrace, and accept the great traditions from religious texts without accepting the religious beliefs on which they are predicated. If I have to go to an ethical philosophy, not doing harm and trying to do good, and not showing hate and showing love toward all people in the world would be a good starting point.

I am going to confess. I don’t know the real meaning of humanism. You might attribute specific meaning to the term. I attribute the meaning in a general way. If humanism means that to you, that is wonderful. However, you might have a more complex and nuanced definition.

29. That’s a good coda statement on it. What economic and political philosophy most appeals to you?[5]

I do not believe in unfettered capitalism. I do not believe in the Adam Smith idea. That is, the pursuit of one’s own individual profit above all as necessary to ensure that people thrive in society. Clearly, in pure capitalism, we would see some people abandoned and starving.

For people to thrive, in a loving definition of the word “thrive,” I flirted with ideas of socialism and communism at an early age. I find much to admire in it, but I am not a socialist or a communist. I believe in the hybrid of socialism and capitalism.

I believe that people should be free to pursue their individual economic interests, but that they should support a strong, democratically-elected government that tends to those who are disenfranchised or not thriving, and that focuses on the development and protection of public goods and services such as roads, schools, hospitals, health care, our environment, our water supply, foreign aid and international relations.

I also want to live in a society that embraces and encourages volunteer activity, non-profit groups and organizations serving a wide range of community needs.

30. You write at home. You might write at a friend’s cottage. You leave a couple to a few times a year to enter into isolation to write, intensely. You wrote an essay entitled Dear Sir, I Intend to Burn Your Book: An Anatomy of a Book Burning (2013) based on a letter from a Surinamese Dutchman named Roy Groenberg.[6] You wrote back in an “outrageously Canadian” way – with tact and politeness. Based on that tone, in hindsight, what would have been the appropriate response to Mr. Groenberg at the time?

I do not feel my response was inappropriate. There would not have been a point in being aggressive. I do not know if I would have done anything differently, if it happened today. I offered an explanation about the origins of the title of my novel The Book of Negroes in my first email to Mr. Groenberg. He was not interested in explanations, in reading the book, or in talking about it.

He was interested in escalating the conflict. It is hard to talk to somebody who seeks to escalate conflict. There does not seem to be a point. The other possibility would have been to ignore him, and not to confront the issue in an essay for The Toronto Star.

I don’t know if I wrote things perfectly. I don’t walk around with a great sense of pride about it, but I do feel that I reacted to the issue in accordance with my own values. I would not have reacted any differently today.

31. On page 31 to 32, you closed:

The very purpose of literature is to enlighten, disturb, awaken and provoke. Literature should get us talking – even when we disagree. Literature should bring us into the same room – not over matches, but over coffee and conversation it should inspire recognition of our mutual humanity. Together. I can’t see any good coming out of burning or banning books. Let’s talk, instead.[7]

What emotion does book burning evoke you?

Fear and horror, a sense that we are witnessing a precursor to physical violence. It makes me think of people whose anger has run amok and are interested in wreaking vengeance and hurting. It makes me think of the Holocaust during which huge numbers of books by Jewish writers were burned.

It makes me think of a person or a group of people who have decided that there is no point in civil dialogue. It makes me think about people who want to intimidate, silence and hurt others.  I am troubled by book burning – even a book that I despise. Every person should be entitled to write a book, or to despise a book, but when we discover differences of opinion, they should be addressed through conversation and debate – not by means of book burning or violence.

32. With the advent of the Internet or the World Wide Web, and the distribution of books via digitization, are there greater risks or lesser risks with respect to that form of prevention of certain ideas getting out in books (or electronic books “e-books”) – whether someone hates them or loves them?

I am not sure. If you write a blog, you can disseminate your ideas infinitely faster than if you are writing a book. You have the potential to reach millions of people immediately. On the other hand, if you live in a country that oppresses freedom of speech, the state can use the same type of electronic technology to find you, punish you and stifle public discussion.

33. All texts, and therefore authors, are susceptible to this drastic and emotive form of censorship. What makes freedom of speech, expression, and press important to you?

As a writer in a democracy, and as a consumer of literature and media of all forms, I’m not alone in treasuring freedom of speech and expression, freedom of the press, and freedom to read. These freedoms are fundamental to democratic societies.

However, there are limits to such freedoms, especially when individual freedom collides with public interest. For example, I believe in anti-hate legislation. I don’t believe that you should be allowed to stand on a street corner and incite violence, or publish a document that advocates genocide, or publish child pornography.

So I believe in freedom of speech but recognize that in a few limited instances, the public good will outweigh individual freedom.

34. Your most well-known work, The Book of Negroes (2007)[8], took five years to write. Many consider The Book of Negroes a masterpiece and its author a genius. As discussed earlier, that is a long time to write a text, work within your own imagination, and not know if there is an interest in the general Canadian culture and the international literary world. You have a woman, a hairdresser, named Rebecca Hill – no relation. She cuts the hair for the family. She graduated from high school and never read a book. You gave her The Book of Negroes. She has become an avid reader ever since. You contributed to a non-reader becoming a reader in personal life. The novel has sold hundreds of thousands of copies, which means, statistically, this transformation of non-readers into readers seems reasonable to expect for numerous others as well. How does this feel to you?

To witness a person – and sometimes an adult – discover the joy of reading brings me great pleasure and satisfaction. Becky Hill is a friend of my wife, children and me. I gave her The Book of Negroes. She read it, loved it, and then let me know that it was the first book she had ever read. Since that day, she has become an inveterate reader and when I stop by to get my hair cut, she always tells me what she has been reading. When I come across a book that is “rooftop good” – good enough to shout about from a rooftop – I like to give it to her. Books have given us the means to share a friendship.

Years ago, I had a wonderful experience working in a prison for young offenders in Oakville, Ontario, for one school term. I was asked to work with a small group of incarcerated teenage boys. My job was to try to get them reading. They were reluctant to read, even though they knew how to read. By the end of the term, they avidly read.

It felt like a glorious achievement. To work with young people who are down on their luck and living behind bars, and to turn them into avid readers, felt like one of the greatest achievements in my life.

35. With respect to the prison population and literacy, how might someone volunteer for prisons in the area?

Often, one of the best things to do is to align with an active, reputable organization. I have been one of many volunteers for a non-profit, charitable group called Book Clubs for Inmates. It distributes books without charge to inmates in federal penitentiaries and organizes book club discussions in those same institutions.

So a person who is interested in promoting reading and literacy among prisoners might choose to volunteer for a group such as Book Clubs for Inmates.

I have recently become a professor of creative writing at the University of Guelph in Ontario, and one form of community service that I have been contemplating would be to be a mentor or teacher of creative writing to prison inmates. That is something I plan to explore.

36. The Book of Negroes discusses the narrative of Aminata Diallo. A young African stolen from Bayo, Mali and sailed to America and enslaved. She was the same age as your eldest child at the time. You had nightmares in constructing this narrative. It was painful. In fact, you worked to write past this part, quickly. What were the contents of those nightmares?

People being murdered, orphaned, thrown overboard into the sea, watching their families or villages being burned down. All of the things that happened in the book.

37. You’ve volunteered with Crossroads International in Cameroon, Mali, Niger, and Swaziland. To name your protagonist, you used the common Malian name Aminata based on meeting a midwife in Mali. The name means “trustworthy” and Diallo means “bold.” Selecting the name for a character is vital, why this name?

It is vital. It is a beautiful name. It is a common name. It is as common as Mary and Joanne in Canada. I could have chosen another name. It struck me as an immensely beautiful name. It is a mouthful, Aminata, but not too much of a mouthful. In North America, it seems foreign, but accessible. I love the sound of it. All of the vowels. It evokes the name of a midwife who was dignified, splendid, and courageous in her work. With my daughter, it helped me imagine a young woman who was in a way my own daughter.

38. Your recent novel, The Illegal (2015), focuses on a man that runs in a literal and metaphorical way.[9] For instance, he was in a place, Zantoroland, where there were great runners. He hoped to join the Olympics. That was shoved to the side in a moment. He was running for life. In one part of The Book of Negroes, I noticed Aminata described African peoples are “travelling people” and moves out of necessity, akin to Keita Ali, throughout the novel from Bayo to Carolina to New York to Nova Scotia to Mali to London. I note a thread through these two texts with movement, history, ownership, literacy, bonds, and survival. Each seem like threads in The Book of Negroes and The Illegal. What were some other threads brought into the novel that reflect personal concerns about the downtrodden for you?

I am interested in movement, voluntary and involuntary. We can agree Aminata’s abduction in Africa, being sent to North America, and enslaved until freeing herself is a form of involuntary migration. She did not choose to leave a village in Africa. She did not choose to move to America and leave Africa. That was involuntary. Keita’s movement in The Illegal might be considered voluntary. He chooses to leave the country. Although, it is a country where he is not welcome. His movement is voluntary on the one hand, but he does not have many options. If he does not leave his country, he will be killed.

In an earlier novel of mine called Any Known Blood (1997), I followed a family of five generations of men who move back-and-forth between Maryland and Ontario.[10] Each generation leaves one jurisdiction and goes into the other over five generations. Those were, for the most part, voluntary as well, but we have people escaping slavery.

For instance, we have the underground railroad. You might see that as voluntary, but attempting to save their lives and freedom at the same time. I am interested in migration, dislocation, and alienation. I have an interest in how identity alters in one’s eyes and in the eyes of those around you, especially as you move across the world or a piece of land. These seem to be continually arising issues: dislocation and marginality.

Many writers have themes to which they return in their books. For example, the Canadian novelist Jane Urquhart writes about people in the Irish diaspora and explores the lives of visual artists, over and over again in her books. My work is preoccupied by dislocation, migration, and alienation.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Professor, Creative Writing, University of Guelph; Author; Novelist; and Writer.

[2] Individual Publication Date: January 15, 2017 at www.in-sightjournal.com; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2017 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] B.A., Economics, Laval University; M.A., Creative Writing, John Hopkins University.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Lawrence Hill and photograph credit to Lisa Sakulensky.

[5] Mr. Hill earned a B.A. in Economics from Laval University.

[6] Hill, L. (2013). Dear Sir, I Intend to Burn Your Book: An Anatomy of a Book Burning. Edmonton, AB: The University of Alberta Press.

[7] Ibid.

[8] Hill, L. (2007). The Book of Negroes. Toronto, ON: HarperCollins Publishers Ltd.

[9] Hill, L. (2015). The Illegal. Toronto, ON: HarperCollins Publishers Ltd.

[10] Hill, L. (1997). Any Known Blood. Toronto, ON: HarperCollins Publishers Ltd.

 

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Lawrence Hill (Part Three) [Online].January 2017; 13(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lawrence-hill-part-three.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, January 15). An Interview with Lawrence Hill (Part Three). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lawrence-hill-part-three.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Lawrence Hill (Part Three). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A, January. 2017. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lawrence-hill-part-three>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with Lawrence Hill (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lawrence-hill-part-three.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Lawrence Hill (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A (January 2017). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lawrence-hill-part-three.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Lawrence Hill (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 13.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lawrence-hill-part-three>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Lawrence Hill (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 13.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lawrence-hill-part-three.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Lawrence Hill (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 13.A (2017):January. 2017. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lawrence-hill-part-three>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Lawrence Hill (Part Three) [Internet]. (2017, January; 13(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lawrence-hill-part-three.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2017-01-08

An Interview with Lawrence Hill (Part Two)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 13.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Nine)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: January 8, 2017

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,767

ISSN 2369-6885

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Abstract

An interview with Lawrence Hill. He discusses: the motivation for compassionate truth; religious or secular worldview influencing it; long time to write novels and this as either part of habit or personality; view on books in terms of their personal importance; strengths and weaknesses of the writing style; reason for writing more non-fiction than fiction; importance of nearly dying; importance of Malcolm X as an influence on him; influence of Martin Luther King on him; meaning of blood to him; and the dangers of associating blood with race or religion.

Keywords: author, blood, Lawrence Hill, Malcolm X, Martin Luther King, novelist, race, religion, writer.

An Interview with Lawrence Hill: Professor, Creative Writing, University of Guelph, and Author, Novelist, and Writer (Part Two)[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been mildly edited for clarity and readability.*

16. One thing that comes from the written word by you. For me, the genuine compassion and open-heartedness in pursuit of real narratives and concern for people. You write on slaves. You write on immigrants. You write on freedom of speech, freedom of expression, and freedom of the press. Uncomfortable truths are still truths. The truth matters. To me, this seems humanistic. Universal truths relevant to everyone. What motivates this passion for compassionate truth?

It’s giving back. Most writers examine issues of injustice, imbalance, or societal wrongs, whether they are tiny wrongs or tiny instances of public awareness. No matter how heinous, tiny wrongs done in the household up to genocides perpetuated on the whole mass of people.

Writers tend to explore inhumanity. Hopefully, to put a stop to it or protest against it, I’m not alone in this. Writing is a profoundly moral act. You’re asserting your morality every time that you pick up a pen and take it to the page. For me, writing is engaging with the world.

Writing is a way of expressing our own humanity, failings, a way of struggling to make sense of life and inhumanity, and to push ourselves to a better place. But when I am at work writing, I don’t think on such a grand scale. Typically, it is pedestrian and manageable. I am burning to tell a story.

17. Any religious or secular framework, perspective, or worldview supporting it?

No. Certainly, not a religious framework, I was raised by two atheists. Those two atheists in turn were raised by two religious people. On my father’s side, my grandfather and great grandfather were both ministers in the African Episcopal Church in the United States.

My father went from being a church minister to being an atheist. I have great interest in religion and people’s perception of religion throughout history. Religion sometimes informs my stories, but I’m not a religious person myself.

18. You take three to five years to write a novel. You let the ideas, the contexts, and the personalities percolate for some time. Does this seem like an aspect of habit or personality?

I let them percolate in a passive way. I’m writing, writing, and writing, and not feeling happy with drafts. I keep writing again, and then rewriting. I take a long time.

(Laugh)

Unfortunately, it takes me that long, 3 to 5 years, to write a novel. I need to feel satisfied with it.

I wish I could write faster, but I don’t seem to be able to do so. It takes time for characters to form, show themselves to me, and to get my head around the story. It is like giving birth on the page to a whole life or a set of lives. It’s hard for me to get my head around all of that and to bring it to the page.

Generally, I write non-fiction more quickly. I take 6-12 months to write a work of non-fiction.

19. You used the phrase “giving birth.” That seems to mirror some common themes among many writers. In a way, their book is like a child to them. How do you view your books in terms of their personal importance, especially based on the effort and time put into them?

I’m using the expressions of my own soul. Each form is different. In general, I try not to rank them in terms of value. It is better for other people to decide which book is better or worse. I don’t want to be in competition with myself.

That is, I don’t want to love any work more than another. I want to love them all in their own way. Each book is part of my mind, heart, and soul at the time of writing. However, once you’re done the production, the healthiest thing is to set them aside and move on.

I might read a translation or adapt a work for a mini-series. And I will tour and give readings and talks. But aside from working obligations, I don’t return to a book once I have finished writing it.

20. As you’re writing, it is not a passive percolation. Once done, the books are put to the side. At the same time, as you’ve noted, it takes time to get them out, but you’d rather get them out faster. What seems like the strengths and weaknesses of this writing style?

(Laugh)

The weakness is I’m a slow writer. Some writers might produce 40 or 50 books in their lifetime. That won’t be the case with me. I’ll be lucky to write 5 more. So, I don’t have a body of work as extensive as some.

Ultimately, that’s okay. I work on my own terms. In the final analysis, if I write 10 or 15 books, it doesn’t matter. I am pursuing art in the best way for me. That matters to me.

The upside, it is important to be honest and faithful to yourself. When I write and produce, I work on something that reflects my own heart. It is an authentic reflection of longing, loving, and living. I’ve managed to get in tune with myself. I’ve found a way to express myself that feels authentic and rich.

21. You’ve written more works of non-fiction than fiction. Why?

Yes, I have written more non-fiction than fiction. I can write non-fiction faster. That’s the most practical reason. Two of the works of non-fiction were very slight, minor books. They were early career productions. Nobody knows about them. They are not available or no longer in print. They are in Canadian history.

I am proud of them. Even so, they are slight, minor books. If you put those books away, the slate is mixed. It leaves four more substantial books of non-fiction and four of fiction. In general, the works of non-fiction are more focused. They are thinner. They hone in on more specific targets.

22. You worked in Niger. You suffered from gastroenteritis. It kills millions of people around the world every year. It is a prominent killer throughout the African Diaspora. You were given blood transfusions. You nearly died. You have pointed out the important aspect of this to you. What was the importance of this event to you – and the blood transfusion?

It was a turning point, emotionally. It was important because I almost died. Apart from getting over the moment of danger, it provided the chance to reflect on my own racial identity.

Something that had been worrying me until the time of when I got sick at the age of 22. With the illness, I dropped the worry in a nanosecond. I no longer felt anxious about my own racial identity or who I was, or what people saw in me.

I felt no need to worry about it anymore. I came to accept, much more calmly, being both black and white. I had family ancestry spanning two continents. I didn’t have to worry other people’s perceptions of me. It didn’t matter. I knew myself.

It was a significant moment triggered by the illness in Niger in 1979. It took me to a place of emotional calm and confidence with regard to my own identity.

23. At the age of 15, Malcolm X was an important influence for you. What was the importance to you? How did that develop over time?

The Autobiography of Malcolm X written by Alex Haley. It was one of the first books for adults that I read. If you read a book that transports you and shapes you in your youth, then you’ll probably never forget it.

Books have a real mark on a young person, if that young person adores the book. You don’t forget it. Malcolm X, as he’s moving through prison, stepping out of prison, embracing Islam, hating white people, and declaring white people were devils incarnate.

He argued white people were devils. He believed that. He mounts a very racist, hateful argument during his early militancy. However, before the assassination, he becomes more compassionate. He envisions a more diverse picture of Islam. He comes to accept through his travels around the world that people of different racial backgrounds can be Muslims.

He was hard to read in print. That is, some ideas were nonsensical and oppressive to me. For example, such as his saying white people were devils incarnate. At the same time, he went to a better place with the diverse image of Islam. I was moved and shaken by Malcolm X’s writings as a teenager. He stayed with me all of these decades.

24. Martin Luther King was concomitant with him in terms of the period and the importance. Did he have any influence on you as well?

Yes, I was born in 1957. It was easy to be influenced by Martin Luther King. Even though, I was a boy at the time of the assassination. I’m from a generation that was most affected by Martin Luther King. His message of love and peace, and a color blind world. It allowed people to search and develop regardless of their race, creed, and color.

Also, he was a pacifist. He gave his life to advance the cause of civil rights. He was a hero of the generation. He was essential to my notion of courage, dignity, love, and transcendence of human evil.

25. Cornel West describes that as a love that starts on the chocolate side of the city and spills over to the vanilla side. In any case, the ideas of the purity or impurity of blood can lead to atrocities: The Holocaust and the Spanish Inquisition. The Spanish Inquisition is the expelling and murder of Jews and Muslims from Spain based on the idea of their impurity. What is blood to you?

The perpetrators of the Spanish Inquisition expelled and murdered Jews and Muslims in great numbers. They burned them to death. They tortured them. They committed all manner of atrocities in addition to expelling tens of thousands or more.

“Blood” is many things to me. Blood is the physical fluid that pumps through our body. It keeps us alive. It can be given and replenished inside the body, which is rare. There aren’t many things that we can donate from our bodies.

People can’t donate a liver, a kidney, a toe, a finger, or an eyeball and have it grow back. In addition to being this ‘magical fluid’ that replenishes itself, blood represents life. It represents mortality.

It represents good. It represents religion. It represents nationhood. It represents gender. Blood evokes individual and collective identity. Blood can unite us. We can be generous and immediate in helping others with our blood.

When we see that our brothers or sisters are in danger, have been terrorized at the Boston Marathon or during 9/11, we can rush to the hospital and donate blood. We do this without public recognition or personal reward.

Blood can bring out the best in us. Also, it can bring out the worst in us such as nasty preoccupations, which can lead into the hell of genocide.

One of the easiest ways over time employed to demonize people and to justify murder is to suggest their blood is unequal to our blood. That their blood is impure. It is a very common, human feeling. We come back to this repeatedly to justify evil and murder.

We dehumanize victims. Blood has an important role as a metaphor. Sometimes for good. Sometimes for evil. It depends on personal conduct. It is more than the fruit of the body. It is a way of seeing ourselves. It is a way of loving. Also, it can be a way of hating.

26. We have the Rwandan genocide, Cambodian genocide, The Holocaust, and the Spanish Inquisition. Each relates to the ideas about the impurity of others’ blood. It justifies murder and subjugation in the mind of the murderer and subjugator. What other dangers exist with blood being associated with race or religion?

That’s a complicated question. I wrote about this in Blood: The Stuff of Life (2013).[5] In a nutshell, we have these ideas about blood, which are unscientific and unrelated to reality. Even as recent as the Second World War, the American government made it illegal for blood from black donors to be given to white recipients.

Even though, at the time, it was completely understood that compatibility between donor and recipient has nothing to do with race. Do the blood types match? That’s the question. If it’s a black donor and white recipient, or white donor and black recipient, it doesn’t matter.

Politics trump science. It becomes law because there’s fear of black people in white America. Bad science and bad social policies touch on this fear of blacks in white America. If you have wretchedly bad science forming wretchedly bad social policy and political interventions, even if it’s not a matter of genocide, it can lead to foul policy.

Also, it can lead to divisive ways of thinking about people. Over and over again, let’s say people in North America, have come to imagine, erroneously, that race can be equated to blood. That one’s blood parts can be counted up in racial bits. That you might be half black, quarter Japanese, and quarter Korean.

It doesn’t make any sense. However, we talk about racial mixtures. The language about racial mixing comes down to blood quantification. We’ve come to imagine that identity and racial identity can be defined by blood parts, which leads to vicious ways of thinking about people.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Professor, Creative Writing, University of Guelph; Author; Novelist; and Writer.

[2] Individual Publication Date: January 8, 2017 at www.in-sightjournal.com; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2017 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] B.A., Economics, Laval University; M.A., Creative Writing, John Hopkins University.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Lawrence Hill and photograph credit to Lisa Sakulensky.

[5] Hill, L. (2013). Blood: The Stuff of Life. Toronto, ON: House of Anansi Press.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Lawrence Hill (Part Two) [Online].January 2017; 13(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lawrence-hill-part-two.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, January 8). An Interview with Lawrence Hill (Part Two). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lawrence-hill-part-two.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Lawrence Hill (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A, January. 2017. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lawrence-hill-part-two>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with Lawrence Hill (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lawrence-hill-part-two.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Lawrence Hill (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A (January 2017). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lawrence-hill-part-two.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Lawrence Hill (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 13.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lawrence-hill-part-two>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Lawrence Hill (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 13.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lawrence-hill-part-two.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Lawrence Hill (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 13.A (2017):January. 2017. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lawrence-hill-part-two>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Lawrence Hill (Part Two) [Internet]. (2017, January; 13(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lawrence-hill-part-two.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2017-01-01

An Interview with Lawrence Hill (Part One)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 13.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Nine)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: January 1, 2017

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,243

ISSN 2369-6885

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Abstract

An interview with Lawrence Hill. He discusses: geographic, cultural, and linguistic family background; familial influence on development; parents’ love story; influence on parents’ relationship on him; influences and pivotal moments in major cross-sections of life; being read to each night by his mother; journalistic experience influencing writing to date; self-editing for writers; number of drafts; singer-songwriter brother, Dan Hill, influence on professional work; recommended songs for listening pleasure by Dan; affect of Karen Hill’s mental illness and death on him; advice for coping with the emotional pain; Café Babanussa (2016) and an essay inside called On Being Crazy; and Karen’s written work and impact on him.

Keywords: author, Canadian, Dan Hill, Karen Hill, Lawrence Hill, novelist, writer.

An Interview with Lawrence Hill: Professor, Creative Writing, University of Guelph, and Author, Novelist, and Writer (Part One)[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been mildly edited for clarity and readability.*

1. To begin at the beginning, you were born in 1957 in Newmarket, Ontario, Canada. Now, you’re one of Canada’s greatest novelists.[5] Let’s explore your story. In terms of geography, culture, and language, where does your familial background reside?

It is complicated, like most people. My early ancestors came from Europe and Africa. On both sides, they have been in the United States for many generations. My parents met in 1952 and married interracially the next year.  My family culture spans Africa, Europe, Canada, and the United States. In terms of my family cultural background, Canadian, American, and black and white cultures.

Language-wise, I was raised in an Anglophone family who spoke only English, but my sister and I became enthusiastic language learners. Learning other languages and living in them has become central in my life.

2. How did this familial history influence development from youth into adolescence?

It is difficult for a person to look inside of their own life and say, “This is how my family history influenced my development from childhood to adolescence.” However, a vivid interest in identity, in belonging, in the ambiguity of culture and race, in moving back and forth between different racial groups: all of these things marked my childhood and adolescence.

3. You mentioned your parents married in 1953. What was the origin and nature of your parents’ relationship with each other? Their love story.

They met in ‘52 in Washington, D.C. and fell in love, quickly. My father had just completed an MA in sociology at the University of Toronto. He went back to live in Washington and to teach at a college in Baltimore for a year. My parents met and married that year. The day after they married, they moved to Canada. They became ardent Canadians and never looked back. They never moved back to live in the United States, although they visited often and took my brother, sister and me with them.

4. How did this relationship influence you?

For one thing, they loved each other. They were opinionated and argumentative, not about domestic things, but about political and social issues. There was always debate around the kitchen table. I was steeped in that culture. A lot of talk, especially around meal time.

5. When looking at formal development, in standard major cross-sections in life, what about influences and pivotal moments in kindergarten, elementary school, junior high school, high school, undergraduate studies (college/university)?

I had a fabulous Grade 1 teacher named Mrs. Rowe. She told us stories every day. I longed to get to school to be sure I didn’t miss any of her stories. My father was a great storyteller. My mother read every day to us. We came – brother, sister, and I – to love the readings.

My parents instilled a love of language and story. I had other great teachers. In high school, they encouraged me to write. I wanted to do it. I told them. They encouraged me, but they didn’t make me.

I was an avid runner and had a track coach. In addition to being my coach, he was a reporter for the Toronto Star. He was the first professional writer that I met. He encouraged me to write better and to expand the range of my reading. These were early formative developers. Adult figures looking on and leading me toward the excitement of writing.

6. I’m thinking about your mother reading these stories each day to you. Was there a common author for each night?

She read one a lot. I memorized it. It is by A.A. Milne.[6] One of her favourite poems that we memorized quite young called Disobedience.[7] It says:

…James James Said to his Mother,
“Mother,” he said, said he;
“You must never go down
to the end of the town,
if you don’t go down with me…[8]

On it goes, it is this crazy story about a woman who loses it. It is quite a story.

(Laugh)

(Laugh)

It is quite a dark story, actually. Also, it is playful, language-wise. Of course, we ate up Dr. Seuss. The crazier and more playful the language, the better.

7. Following that influence from the first professional writer that you met, you were a journalist for The Winnipeg Free Press and The Globe and Mail. How did the time as a journalist at these publications inform the work writing to date?

It helped me learn, quickly. I learned to edit myself. I was able to call people ‘out of the blue’ and say, “Hey, there’s something I need to understand. You’re apparently an expert in the field. Can you explain it to me?” It made me feel confident approaching strangers and asking them to help me get my head around things that I needed to know as a novelist.

I also learned that words aren’t sacrosanct. That is, my world wouldn’t come to an end if people altered words of mine. I realized everyone can be edited. First and foremost, we can edit ourselves. I learned to write more rapidly and to allow the natural rhythms of thought to percolate unfettered onto the page, and then to come back and edit myself. Those lessons come from journalism.

8. Would you consider self-editing one of the most important skills for writers?

Certainly, it is for me. Unless you’re born Mozart, your first drafts will be sloppy. Mine certainly are, so I have to rewrite my work and work it into shape. Editing is fundamental to progressing through the drafts of a novel.

9. How many drafts?

In a novel, I easily work through ten drafts.

10. Now, back to the family, your brother, Dan Hill, is a singer-songwriter.[9] Has this relationship influenced professional work at all?

First, it influenced me as a person, which influenced professional work in every imaginable way. He is (and was) totally passionate with art. He lived for it. It was exciting to see my brother as an artist doing his thing.

I could see the personal fulfillment for him. It normalized the possibility of achievement in the arts. The idea of going for it, pursuing the dream, and believing in its achievability. His most important influence: being there, seeing him, and showing the possibility for me too.

11. Any recommended songs by him for listening pleasure? Songs that you enjoy by your brother.

I love the song Hold On.[10] It came out in the 70s.

12. Your late sister, Karen, suffered from bipolar disorder. She went to a restaurant, choked, lost consciousness, and died in the hospital 5 days later. How did this life battle with mental illness and then the death affect you?

It affected me in all the imaginable ways. It took my sister from me. I lost one of the people that I most love in the world. It was a visceral, immediate, loss. Many will face it. It is hard to lose a loved one unexpectedly far before their time. It affected me by taking someone from me that I love very deeply.

13. For those that might read this in the future with family members suffering from mental illness, any advice for coping with the emotional pain that might coincide with it?

My advice: don’t be alone. It is tremendous work emotionally, intellectually, and financially to help somebody who suffers from mental illness. It is alienating if you have to do that alone. If you have a community of people to come and work together in supporting the ill person, it can help.

If you are alone, it can be brutally alienating, lonely, and crushing. However, if you have institutions, nurses, social workers, psychiatrists, friends, family members and neighbours involved with the ill person, everyone can help in their respective ways. It can become less overwhelming. That’s one of the most important things: to build a network. If you are helping an ill person, you will need help too.

14. She wrote a book entitled Café Babanussa (2016) and an essay inside called On Being Crazy.[11]You have read these.

Yes, I read them.

15. Did her written work impact you?

I have been reading Karen’s fiction and non-fiction for decades. It has been a lifelong process. Karen worked on Café Babanussa for 20 years. I’ve been reading it, tuning into her life, commenting on it, encouraging her, and being a brotherly figure by reading her stuff for a long time now. The book was intertwined with her own life. Discussing it became an extension of our sibling relationship.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Professor, Creative Writing, University of Guelph; Author; Novelist; and Writer.

[2] Individual Publication Date: January 1, 2017 at www.in-sightjournal.com; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2017 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] B.A., Economics, Laval University; M.A., Creative Writing, John Hopkins University.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Lawrence Hill and photograph credit to Lisa Sakulensky.

[5] The Canadian Encyclopedia. (2016). Lawrence Hill. Retrieved from http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/lawrence-hill/.

[6] A.A. Milne. (2016). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from https://www.britannica.com/biography/A-A-Milne.

[7] Disobedience (n.d.) states:

James James
Morrison Morrison
Weatherby George Dupree
Took great
Care of his Mother,
Though he was only three.
James James Said to his Mother,
“Mother,” he said, said he;
“You must never go down
to the end of the town,
if you don’t go down with me.”

James James
Morrison’s Mother
Put on a golden gown.
James James Morrison’s Mother
Drove to the end of the town.
James James Morrison’s Mother
Said to herself, said she:
“I can get right down
to the end of the town
and be back in time for tea.”

King John
Put up a notice,
“LOST or STOLEN or STRAYED!
JAMES JAMES MORRISON’S MOTHER
SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN MISLAID.
LAST SEEN
WANDERING VAGUELY:
QUITE OF HER OWN ACCORD,
SHE TRIED TO GET DOWN
TO THE END OF THE TOWN –
FORTY SHILLINGS REWARD!”

James James
Morrison Morrison
(Commonly known as Jim)
Told his
Other relations
Not to go blaming him.
James James
Said to his Mother,
“Mother,” he said, said he:
“You must never go down to the end of the town
without consulting me.”

James James
Morrison’s mother
Hasn’t been heard of since.
King John said he was sorry,
So did the Queen and Prince.
King John
(Somebody told me)
Said to a man he knew:
If people go down to the end of the town, well,
what can anyone do?”

(Now then, very softly)
J.J.
M.M.
W.G.Du P.
Took great
C/O his M*****
Though he was only 3.
J.J. said to his M*****
“M*****,” he said, said he:
“You-must-never-go-down-to-the-end-of-the-town-
if-you-don’t-go-down-with-ME!”

Milne, A.A. (n.d.). Disobedience. Retrieved from https://allpoetry.com/Disobedience.

[8] Ibid.

[9] The Canadian Encyclopedia. (2016). Dan Hill. Retrieved from http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/dan-hill/.

[10] [Kelly Mark]. (2013, October 21). Hold On – Dan Hill. Retrieved from  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFxfiWk3rT4&list=RDwFxfiWk3rT4#t=1.

[11] K., Hill. (2016). Café Babanussa: A Novel. Toronto, ON: HarperCollins Publishers Ltd.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Lawrence Hill (Part One) [Online].January 2017; 13(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lawrence-hill-part-one.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2017, January 1). An Interview with Lawrence Hill (Part One). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lawrence-hill-part-one.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Lawrence Hill (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A, January. 2017. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lawrence-hill-part-one>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2017. “An Interview with Lawrence Hill (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lawrence-hill-part-one.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Lawrence Hill (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 13.A (January 2017). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lawrence-hill-part-one.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Lawrence Hill (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 13.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lawrence-hill-part-one>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2017, ‘An Interview with Lawrence Hill (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 13.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lawrence-hill-part-one.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Lawrence Hill (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 13.A (2017):January. 2017. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lawrence-hill-part-one>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Lawrence Hill [Internet]. (2017, January; 13(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lawrence-hill-part-one.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2016-12-22

An Interview with Tony Hendra (Part Four)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 12.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Eight)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: December 22, 2016

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,741

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

An interview with Tony Hendra. He discusses: sexual and social correctness; the simplification of life; importance of the free flow of information; most controversial thing at the moment regarding free speech; consequences if ongoing restriction of speech; and ‘last words’.

Keywords: Actor, Satirist, Tony Hendra, Writer.

An Interview with Tony Hendra: Actor, Satirist, and Writer (Part Four)[1],[2]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & bibliography & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been mildly edited for clarity and readability.*

12. You used phrases: “sexual correctness” and “social correctness.” Those seem to be the heart of the issue. The internet is part of it. It is less about individuals. It is about controlling the larger group and not hearing things the group would consider bad, and by implication you get the individual.

Right, yes. Sexual correctness is just prudery in another word. You might be watching porn all of your life, but when you actually come across real sexual opportunities. Maybe, it makes you very nervous. By the same token, female on female or whatever it might be. You don’t want to deal with the reality of actual things because it is very much more complicated and very much more likely to be disappointing and not be as easy to control, as it has been in your young life hitherto.

Similarly, with social encounters with diverse people and so forth, and people of different views, and people who present temperamental threats to you, you have not had to worry about that because you friend who like and unfriend people you don’t. I think we can say, “Thanks internet, for a lot of this.”

13. In a way, it is a simplification of the ecosystem of real life. People live in their bubbles.

Yea, exactly. There is actually a very good article by Andrew Sullivan on this, which is about giving it all up, giving up the connected, giving up your cell phone, giving up your computer, giving up your favourite blogs, and all of the rest of it. It may be the first of a number of articles like that, I think. I hope it is. Obviously, the internet is incredibly valuable in all kinds of ways, practical ways. It isn’t valuable to me in terms of my growth as an individual or my destiny as an individual either. I do not think.

To be reductionist about it, when you really get down to it, the internet is basically small television, litle television. Except, you can carry it in your fist rather than having it on a piece of furniture across the room. Since I am not interested in television, I am not very interested in the internet. This album is supposed to dramatize it. I think it probably does quite successfully.

14. It is targeting a set of ideas and activities that are ongoing and I, personally at least, find that it has the comedy, but that it is thematic at a deeper level. It is really looking at what is the absurdity in restriction of speech by others, for anyone. 

Right.

We’re in a pluralistic, democratic society, where it (free speech) is, in essence, to a large extent the fluid to keep things going – where you can have free flow of information from mind to mind, device to device, or whatever it may be.

Right, indeed. One thing that I say when I am talking about this in public, which I do, rarely. There doesn’t seem to be a whole lot of difference between telling me I have to avoid a whole set of subjects and do so on the pain of not being able to make my living (the way I make my living), and the terrorist who says you’re not allowed to speak about the Prophet in any way, or speak about Islam in any way, or we’ll cut your head off. I don’t see much difference, frankly. I don’t see much difference between those two impulses. They’re both trying to stop me thinking and saying things that I have a perfect right to do – a perfect right to think and say.

15. What do you think is the most controversial ongoing topic at the moment, internationally, with respect to the theme we’ve been discussing so far about freedom of speech and freedom of ideas?

One of the recurrent themes is one that I don’t particularly want to get into with any detail, but it is certainly, at least within this country, extremely hard to have any real discussions about Israel without there being repercussions that you can’t particularly control. That’s a shame. Not necessarily that I have a rigid view about Israel, I have a lot of friends that live there and a lot that support Israel. I don’t take much issue with it.

But I think it is appalling that you can’t really have an open discussion about the Israeli-Palestinian crisis in this country without, as I say, it being fraught with landmines. In that sense, the Israeli-Palestinian crisis is one of the main reasons we are encountering this huge antagonism from the Muslim world in one form or another. We need to have that discussion. We need to have it openly and frankly.

That would be where I would say American politics impinges on freedom of speech.

16. Also relevant to the new album is the fact that those who are in university become adults, become fully functional adults for the most part, those going through these experiences of restriction of their speech through trigger warnings, safe spaces, and so on. This could leave impacts on how they view things in society should be done. In a free society, in an open society in Karl Popper’s terms, that can be an issue. What do you think could be some of the consequences if these restrictions are ongoing?

You mean if my album isn’t a hit and doesn’t sell a million copies and becomes a bestseller and changes culture? That’s what you really mean, right?

(Laugh)

(Laugh)

If my album doesn’t sell a million copies and change the culture on campus, I will be very disappointed because it does deserve to sell a million copies and speech on campus needs to change. But clearly, if you grow up, or your formative years are formed, around the idea that you have the power, collectively or individually, to shut other people up, then that bodes extremely unwell for free speech, which is already under colossal threat.

The last thing anyone needs to be doing is trying to control speech, when they ought to be banding together to seize their democracy back from those in power who have taken it away from them, and are continuing to take it away from them. I would say that would be the most important reason why this particular trend on campus needs enormous pushback.

But friendly pushback, but real pushback, whether it is ridicule, whether it’s instruction, but I think ridicule is a more powerful way to do it; there should be consequences for trying to do this to other people. I don’t mean punitive ones, but I mean there should be consequences in terms of employment.

17. Any feelings or thoughts in conclusion about the subject matter discussed today? ‘Last words,’ as one might say.

That’s the title of a book I wrote about George Carlin. I think the burning issues of our time really do not have room for these essentially trivial attempts at suppression of speech. They really are trivial. I mean, you’re looking for a safe space. You find one. Now, you’re sitting in your safe space virtually or actually.

(Laugh)

There was a news story about a very large asteroid grazing the Earth’s atmosphere, which means it came considerably closer to Earth’s atmosphere than other asteroids have in quite some time. So if you’re sitting in your safe space and the asteroid comes through your room and atomizes you, where are you then? How safe are you then?

I’ve said enough about triggers and micro-aggressions, but that’s really the thought I want to leave people with. The other thought I want to leave people with is to buy the album and have a good time.

Thank you for your time, Mr. Hendra.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Actor, Satirist, and Writer

[2] St. Albans School; Cambridge University.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Tony Hendra (Part Four) [Online].December 2016; 12(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-tony-hendra-part-four.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, December 22). An Interview with Tony Hendra (Part Four). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-tony-hendra-part-four.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Tony Hendra (Part Four). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A, December. 2016. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-tony-hendra-part-four>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An Interview with Tony Hendra (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-tony-hendra-part-four.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Tony Hendra (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A (December 2016). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-tony-hendra-part-four.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Tony Hendra (Part Four)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 12.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-tony-hendra-part-four>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Tony Hendra (Part Four)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 12.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-tony-hendra-part-four.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Tony Hendra (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 12.A (2016):December. 2016. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-tony-hendra-part-four>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Tony Hendra (Part Four) [Internet]. (2016, December; 12(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-tony-hendra-part-four.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2016-12-15

An Interview with Tony Hendra (Part Three)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 12.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Eight)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: December 15, 2016

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,662

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

An interview with Tony Hendra. He discusses: the political stances of the comedy world; Donald Wildman and ministerial values as Right values; and restrictions on free speech from the Left.

Keywords: Actor, Satirist, Tony Hendra, Writer.

An Interview with Tony Hendra: Actor, Satirist, and Writer (Part Three)[1],[2]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & bibliography & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been mildly edited for clarity and readability.*

9. One thing, in general, is the political Left, or left in political stance or persuasion, in the comedy world. Things like anarchism. Things that tend to ‘care more about people’ in George Carlin’s words. 

Right.

There are considerations about ‘people over property’ (Carlin). There are considerations about power and power relations, and ways to take down power. So if anything is, or claims to be, a source of power, then ask it for justification. If it cannot justify itself, then dismantle it. One methodology, mentioned before, is making fun of it, or comedy. I noticed in the examples discussed before: Lenny Bruce. Or Leonard Bruce since I never met him.

(Laugh)

George Carlin (as well as Richard Pryor, for some), it depends on the individual who is more prominent for them. It does seem to be one thing that is more prominent. Does that seem to reflect longer term experience and larger knowledge base than me with respect to the comedy world and its political stances?

I mean, let me speak on behalf of my group and history, at the Lampoon, we were just as satirical about the Left and the movement, and associated phenomena like rock music and drug use and all kinds of stuff – just as rough on that as we were on Nixon and the political structure. In that sense, we were observing a kind of fairness doctrine.

But then, I suppose one of the reasons a lot of satire comes from the Left is simply because of that perceived split between a concern for people versus a concern for private property. The concern for private property almost essentially demands that you wield power to protect it.

So, I think that’s probably why you end up with those in power being in the crosshairs of satirists. But that said, it doesn’t necessarily mean that the satirist himself or herself is necessarily one way or the other. I mean, I like to say that I don’t believe in organized religion and I don’t believe in organized politics. I think George would have probably said the same thing if he would have thought of it.

It is just the way things are, but Evelyn Waugh was a very Right-wing person and a great admirer of the aristocracy and the aristocratic past of England, which he wanted to enjoy – even as it was slipping through his finger by the moment. Voltaire was certainly very hard on the Jesuits and other powerful entities, but he himself was not necessarily interested in the lower classes and the whole idea of revolution.

It is not necessarily true to say we are lefties rather than righties, but I do think the tendency, as I say, is that people versus power is probably just as good a way to define the Left versus the Right. It is natural that those who align themselves on the Right who tend to be religious, militaristic, and oppressive, and so forth – and fond of wielding power to control society and to protect property – are more often its targets than not. Wouldn’t you say?

10. Yea, it doesn’t seem to me an accident that Donald Wildman called into the radio station based on the small sketch by Carlin, the Seven Dirty Words. Carlin, then, followed this with a routine about knobs and being a minister.

(Laugh)

(Laugh)

Ministerial, pastoral, Christian values tend to lean Right. That reaction doesn’t seem a surprise to me. 

That’s what strange about the current restriction on free speech. If you probably took a quick survey, at least on most of the campuses where most of these movements have trigger warnings, safe spaces, and against microaggressions – and that’s one ‘wonderful’ thing: microaggressions; if you surveyed a handful of the kids that basically agreed with that approach, you would find they would describe themselves as Left-wing. They would’ve voted for Bernie if they could’ve.

That is distressing. That it is coming from that side. It is not that the Left does not have a tradition of restricting free speech, but it is depressing, not just distressing.

11. Those perspectives are matched by the professor and instructors. There was a study done with some big names such as Jonathan Haidt, who has done research into the moral values of the major political positions in the United States, Democrat and Republican.

In that research or analysis of political views in universities, those that leaned Left more than Right in the instructors on campus. That would be professors or a non-research based university (so just instructors). It was about a dozen, or a dozen and half, to one with Left political leaning to Right political leaning. There is something going on there. Something we haven’t discussed. Why is it coming bottom-up – cohort-wise?

Let me say, it is one of the things I find odd about it too. It is something in the album we’re trying to do it without saying it. If you are worried about having trigger warnings in articles, you should really be worried about the 300 million real triggers out in the country, and the itchy fingers that are longing to use them.

The microaggressions that people are worried about hardly match the macroaggressions we see in places like New York, which are obviously taking place on a regular basis for whatever reason. It scares the living shit out of me.

I don’t know why it doesn’t scare the shit out of these kids worried about trigger warnings, at least more than they are. That might be the trigger to explain what is going on here. I don’t think what is going on here is political correctness as much as sexual correctness and social correctness, or if you want to push the point solipsistic correctness. A lot of what is going on here is an actual evasion of the reality of these issues. That could be a simple fear, but I don’t think it is.

I hate to sound like an old fart here. I am certainly old, but I am not a fart.

(Laugh)

It does seem to have a great deal to do with all of these young people having grown up with the internet at their disposal. The internet, increasingly, is – it seems to me – turning us into a solipsistic race. You are able edit your own life and your own information. Your own pleasures and your own threats to whatever degree you want. So if you don’t want to hear about real aggressions, you don’t have to. Or if you don’t want to read articles with alarming or distressing ideas, you don’t have to.

That would seem to be at least a major factor as to why this is happening now and why this has not happened in this way before.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Actor, Satirist, and Writer

[2] St. Albans School; Cambridge University.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Tony Hendra (Part Three) [Online].December 2016; 12(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-tony-hendra-part-three.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, December 15). An Interview with Tony Hendra (Part Three). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-tony-hendra-part-three.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Tony Hendra (Part Three). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A, December. 2016. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-tony-hendra-part-three>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An Interview with Tony Hendra (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-tony-hendra-part-three.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Tony Hendra (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A (December 2016). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-tony-hendra-part-three.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Tony Hendra (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 12.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-tony-hendra-part-three>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Tony Hendra (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 12.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-tony-hendra-part-three.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Tony Hendra (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 12.A (2016):December. 2016. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-tony-hendra-part-three>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Tony Hendra (Part Three) [Internet]. (2016, December; 12(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-tony-hendra-part-three.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2016-12-08

An Interview with Tony Hendra (Part Two)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 12.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Eight)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: December 8, 2016

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,712

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

An interview with Tony Hendra. He discusses: Lenny Bruce, George Carlin, Richard Pryor, and Billy Connolly and the advancement of free speech;  Are There Any Triggers Here Tonight? and uptightness of speech in North America and Western Europe; and methodologies to ‘push the boundaries’.

Keywords: Actor, Satirist, Tony Hendra, Writer.

An Interview with Tony Hendra: Actor, Satirist, and Writer (Part Two)[1],[2]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & bibliography & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been mildly edited for clarity and readability.*

6. What do you think was the importance of Lenny Bruce, George Carlin, Richard Pryor, and Billy Connolly to the advancement of free speech in ideas in comedy as well as in popular culture?

I wrote a book called Going Too Far. It was a history written after finishing with Spitting Image, and National Lampoon. It is an examination of post-war anti-establishment humor and attire in the States from 1965 until the mid-80s, when it more or less disappeared.

Lenny, and I call him Lenny, even though everyone calls him Lenny including those who never met him, and I, in fact, opened for him in New York in a club called the Café au Go Go. Lenny was a kind of failure. He was the one who showed us how much work had to be done, and where the pressure points came from. He sacrificed his career on doing that.

One of the ironical things to his downfall was that, although it was predicated on obscenity, it was not obscenity that caused Lenny’s downfall, but that he was extremely rude about the Catholic Church. He wasn’t Catholic. His actual downfall occurred after the show, which I opened for him in New York. Where he was busted twice by the NYPD during a 2-week booking, the DEA of Manhattan was a guy called Frank Hogan, who was an avowedly devout Catholic.

Obviously, he did not have a lot of charity about comedians. He pursued Lenny into privation and probably death. He did it because he had said things about the sacred, which he couldn’t be allowed to get away with. I thought that was a very significant of my growing up and of my entire generation.

Certainly, Lenny’s sacrifice, if you want to call it that, was so complete that it did ultimately open doors because people followed where he’d led. George Carlin, in particular, who I had a close friendship with, was one of those who obviously took it head on when he went through his transition from television comic to a real satirical and comedic spokesman with his most famous routine, Seven Dirty Words, which was about television censorship.

It was about the most empowered and tyrannical media in the nation deciding what you could and could not say. That was important both to the culture at large and to exposing how much there still had to be done. That routine of George’s is the only comedic routine that know of that has inspired a major Supreme Court decision, the Pacific case.

In which the court ruled against a radio station, the WBAI, who went against the routine, a minister from the South, of course, complained bitterly that he had to listen to it in his radio with his child in the front seat. The ministers always seem to be travelling and listening.

That’s how the Pacifica decision came about, and the Pacifica decision ruled against WBAI. It was a majority decision. The Supreme Court has, to this day, to undo Pacifica decision. It remains a vast lacuna on freedom of speech. Those two, themselves, did specific things, which opened up the culture at large to a great deal more freedom of speech than it thought it enjoyed before that.

7. I want to relate that to your recent work, where National Lampoon released, after 35 years, an album entitled Are There Any Triggers Here Tonight?. Much of the subject matter has to do with freedom of speech and freedom of expression of ideas. Do you think that the culture – North America and Western Europe – is more uptight about speech or less so than at those two prior times with the two exemplars, Lenny Bruce and George Carlin discussed before?

I want to make two points about that. The suppression of speech, such as it is, is localized to college campuses. It is certainly safe to say what you want on television with respect to language, whether you can say certain things about certain subjects is another question. With the whole, appalling term, ‘political correctness’ on college campuses is certainly tangible. It is so tangible that that is why we made the album.

It is in stark contrast to the days of National Lampoon, when we could say anything we liked to campus and they liked it. We were sold mostly, 99% of the Lampoons, on college campuses. That generation of Lampoon fans lapped it up. It is unfortunate that 40 years later it now appears to be closing down, especially as it doesn’t seem to be a faculty imposed form of suppression. It is voted on itself by the student body, which is odd, very odd.

I have yet to figure out exactly what causes it this time, but it also has to be said that this is not new. In the late 80s and the early 90s, similar kinds of attempt to control speech was quite rife on college campus….political corrected. This speech that they wanted to denigrate was pushed back by the overt racism and elitism of the neo-conservative movement. They didn’t like that. They did what they always did and had always done was to call its exponents “commies.”That’s where the term comes from. In the early days of the Communist Party, you had to be, as I’m sure you know, politically correct before you would be admitted to the party. So, that’s why I don’t like the term “political correctness.” I, nonetheless, acknowledge the conditions of speech that it approximates. So, I think the only good thing about it is you can satirize it. It is unusual. It is unusual to be able to satirize things happening on college campuses.

(Laugh)

The thing that I set out to do by doing this album is to make a, supposedly, live recording at a small community college called Artesia Community College in TrickleDown Ohio, in case anyone got Reaganomics. That’s where we find on the album that even the title of our album offends the audience instantly. They accuse us of using sarcasm and point out that there are sarcasm survivors in the audience.

(Laugh)

We love this. We take into account that at least don’t want to do our strongest material. We do our innocuous material first. And in the intermission between side one and side two, the campus is now in chaos and roving bands of youths are doing politically correct demonstrations like burning recycled materials in the recycle bin. One woman has a rape whistle, which she blows repeatedly when anyone laughs. It is all great.

We do side two. Side two is stronger stuff. Side three (there are three sides), we have completely cleared the campus. It is of great satisfaction to us, and then it concludes. We get ours too. It is dealing with this attempt to limit free speech on campus.

8. For those that are concerned about the restrictions on speech, freedom of ideas, and so on, one thing to do is to make fun of it. What other methodologies can we use to push back on the restrictions, or ‘push the boundaries’?

Yes, absolutely. There are other pieces. If you cant laugh at yourself, you have really given up.

(Laugh)

Certainly, satire’s job is to take issue with just these kinds of excessive things. Generally, satire is properly directed at power because power tends to become corrupted. The power in this sense is not exactly recognized as power. But the crowd has power. This is crowdsourced censorship, which is what makes it unusual – even though it is not new. Make relentless fun of everything you can, especially every evil you can, that’s the only way you can bring it down.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Actor, Satirist, and Writer

[2] St. Albans School; Cambridge University.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Tony Hendra (Part Two) [Online].December 2016; 12(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-tony-hendra-part-two.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, December 8). An Interview with Tony Hendra (Part Two). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-tony-hendra-part-two.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Tony Hendra (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A, December. 2016. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-tony-hendra-part-two>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An Interview with Tony Hendra (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-tony-hendra-part-two.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Tony Hendra (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A (December 2016). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-tony-hendra-part-two.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Tony Hendra (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 12.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-tony-hendra-part-two>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Tony Hendra (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 12.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-tony-hendra-part-two.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Tony Hendra (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 12.A (2016):December. 2016. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-tony-hendra-part-two>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Tony Hendra (Part Two) [Internet]. (2016, December; 12(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-tony-hendra-part-two.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2016-12-01

An Interview with Tony Hendra (Part One)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 12.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Eight)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: December 1, 2016

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,763

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

An interview with Tony Hendra. He discusses: geographic, cultural, and linguistic background of family; self-definition as a satirist, actor, and writer; Cambridge University Footlights Revue; work with Spitting Image; previous interview with Paul Krassner and reflection on Lenny Bruce; and advancement of free speech in ideas in comedy as well as in popular culture.

Keywords: Actor, Satirist, Tony Hendra, Writer.

An Interview with Tony Hendra: Actor, Satirist, and Writer (Part One)[1],[2]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & bibliography & citation style listing after the interview.*

*This interview has been edited for clarity and readability.*

1. In terms of geography, culture, and language, where does your family background reside?

As you can tell from my rather rusty British accent, my providence is the British Isles. My heritage is Celtic. My mother’s maiden name was McGovern. Even though, she pretended she was Scottish. She was from County Latham. My family name is from Cornwall. We’re basically Celtic as a family. I spent the rest of my life in the not terribly remunerative career of satire.

So, that is the other thing that shaped my general outlook on things.

2. You self-define as a satirist, and actor and writer.

I am not an actor. I act when I am asked to act. I was lucky enough to be in one fairly famous movie. That is not my métier. I always wanted to be a writer. I never really wrote in any substantial way, except little skits for a comedy team I was a part of. Until, I arrived for National Lampoon and started to write what I wanted to write.

So, that is part of it, but the other part of it worth thinking about. It is not as true in America as in England, at least in the time I grew up – being Irish meant that you were very much an outsider. It is partly the anti-Catholicism of the English. This is ingrained anti-Catholicism. It is also just the odium that the British have for people they enslaved for 800 years, which seems to me what happens to people that enslave other people.

They hate the people they enslave. It is interesting. That definitely shaped my growing up. I was an outsider at school, mainly because I was Catholic, but I was an outsider to a sufficient extent that when, for example, in England they have this awful system of prefects and captains, and so forth, who are allowed to discipline the other boys.

It is usually at boys’ schools. I was told by my head master in no uncertain terms that I could not be head of school, even though I had a scholarship to Cambridge and belonged to many teams. All of the right things. I could not be head of school because I was a papist. He took great delight in using the word papist.

It gives you a real snapshot of the background that I have.

3. You were part of the Cambridge University Footlights Revue in 1962.

I was, indeed. I joined a couple years before that after seeing a magnificent revue called Beyond the Fringe, which was immensely influential in terms of British comedy and, probably, in terms of British writing too because it dared to open doors nobody dared to open before.

I was at Footlights. During the time that I was there, and immediately before I was there, two of the members had been on the fringe, who were Peter Cook and Jonathan Miller. Miller later became a distinguished director. David Frost preceded all of us. David Frost was in London at this point.

In my own year, I had John Cleese and Graham Chapman of Monty Python. They were two prominent members. That is who I grew up with.

4. When you came into television, more prominently with Spitting Image, when you are having that writing experience, how do you think that set you up for later work?

Spitting Image was more like the middle of my career. I am so ancient.

(Laugh)

(Laugh)

It was a unique show. It used puppet sized puppets made of foam. The puppets were representations of public figures. It was in the mid-80s, when we developed the show. We had caricatures of everybody from Maggie Thatcher to Ronald Reagan to whoever was the leader of Russia at the time.

There were several in a row. All kinds of celebrities in every walk of life including the Pope, etc. We made the puppets do outrageous things. It was the type of writing that no one had done before because only television made this possible. Only puppets could do a lot of the things that an actor could not have done. It was a marvelous vehicle for satire.

Unfortunately, I never succeeded in getting to export it to the States, but it was an enormous hit in England and ran for about 10 years.

5. In a previous interview with Paul Krassner, we talked about his being a child prodigy for violin. At one point, Lenny Bruce approached him. He said Krassner should do comedy. He took the advice.

(Laugh)

(Laugh)

After listening to him play the violin?

(Laugh)

(Laugh)

He was standing on one leg telling jokes, playing the violin, I think. Something like that. Who were some individuals that set you on a course for writing, comedy, satire, and so on?

There were several. The most important and earliest I had was a show in England. A radio show called Goon Show. The Goon Show was three guys: Spike Milligan, Harry Secombe, and Peter Sellers. It was where Peter Sellers got his start. It was an extraordinary Dadaist approach to radio in which complete non sequiturs and insane scenes would be conjured up by sound effects and the magic of radio.

It was immensely popular in England around the turn of the 50s. Its high point was probably 52, 53, and 54, when I was growing up. I was an impressionable young man. That comedy had a strong strain, even though it was a few years after World War II. They had a strong strain of anti-militarism. It was making fun of the military. It was probably because they had all fought in the war.

One sketch, I remember vividly, is a character named Major Bloodnok was an extremely pompous, jingoistic soldier. He was barking commands and constantly horning at everything. Major Bloodnok had this wonderful plan of constructing a cardboard replica of England and floating it into the English Channel to fool English bombers.

They would play it out. You would hear rustling of cardboard. They would float the replica down the English Channel and then bomb it. You would have wet cardboard floating. That sort of humor, which was very satirical in its thrust, was also very wild and surrealist.

I loved that as with most of my generation, I think. Other influences were rather odder. My mentor, as a young adolescent, was a Benedictine monk. I wrote a book called Father Joe. A wonderful, funny and contemplative monk on the Isle of Wight in England. In rather odd circumstances, I came under his tutelage.

He was wonderfully funny too. He was wonderfully irreverent. I found, even though I loved his spirituality most of all, his irreverence very shocking at the outset. Later, I realized it was very spiritual in its own way. In that, he was always testing his own faith and the faith of others.

As he would say, “The beginning and end of faith is doubt. Not certainty. Those who have certainty are usually very dangerous.” That was an important influence. Many years later after I became a satirist. He asked me to explain satire in a modern context. I tried to explain it. It wasn’t easy.

He said something fascinating at the end of it. He said, “Tony dear, what I think a contemplative monk does and a satirist does are very much the same thing. We see the evil in the world around us and we go about trying to do something about it.”

When you dig down into it, it is an interesting insight into why satirists do what they do, and why some satirists are quite religious. As I was, or as Evelyn Waugh was, it is a sense that the moral universe is askew. You don’t have that sense. Unless, you have some deep sense of what is and isn’t moral.

So for that, Joe was an influence on all parts of my life, including wanting to become a writer.

 

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Actor, Satirist, and Writer

[2] St. Albans School; Cambridge University.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Tony Hendra (Part One) [Online].December 2016; 12(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-tony-hendra-part-one.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, December 1). An Interview with Tony Hendra (Part One). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-tony-hendra-part-one.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Tony Hendra (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A, December. 2016. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-tony-hendra-part-one>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An Interview with Tony Hendra (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-tony-hendra-part-one.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Tony Hendra (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A (December 2016). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-tony-hendra-part-one.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Tony Hendra (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 12.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-tony-hendra-part-one>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Tony Hendra (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 12.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-tony-hendra-part-one.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Tony Hendra (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 12.A (2016):December. 2016. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-tony-hendra-part-one>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Tony Hendra (Part One) [Internet]. (2016, December; 12(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-tony-hendra-part-one.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2016-11-22

An Interview with Associate Professor David Garneau

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 12.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Eight)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: November 22, 2016

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,831

ISSN 2369-6885

professor-david-garneau-jpg

Abstract

An interview with Associate Professor David Garneau. He discusses: geographic, cultural, and linguistic personal and familial background; differentiation of critical writing, curation, drawing, and painting; most personal fulfillment from a practice; contemporary Aboriginal identity, history, masculinity, and nature and topics of most interest within them; main conversations around contemporary Aboriginal identity; best definition of a healthy masculinity in the modern world, especially in Canada; meaning of national representation of painting collections in distinguished places; the process for the origination, development, and presentation of thematic curations; contents and intended messages of talks around the world; memorable and enjoyable moments with students and faculty; advice for young gifted artists; recommendations on mastering individual expression and technique for art; responsibilities with public recognition; responsibility to the arts community; most emotionally ‘taxing’ part of artistic work; and feelings and thoughts in conclusion.

Keywords: David Garneau, Fine Arts, and The University of Regina.

An Interview with Associate Professor David Garneau: Associate Professor, Faculty of Fine Arts in the Visual Arts Department, The University of Regina[1],[2],[3]

*Footnotes in and after the interview, & bibliography & citation style listing after the interview.*

1. In terms of geography, culture, and language, where does your personal and familial background reside?[4]

I live with my family in Treaty Four Territory, on the Northern Great Plains of Turtle Island. We live in Regina, the capital of Saskatchewan, Canada. It is a small city (221,407) in a large (651,036 km²) province but a relatively small population (1.13 million). I was born in Treaty Six Territory, Edmonton, Alberta. My mother is from Vancouver and my father’s family were among the original Métis settlers, in 1871, of Edmonton; there is a Garneau district named for them—for Laurent and Eleanor Garneau, my great, great grandparents. I am an English speaking Métis.

2. Your work emphasizes critical writing, curation, drawing, and painting. What differentiates each practice?

I have always seen these as intertwined and complimentary practices. I am fortunate to have a generous studio/office at the University of Regina. The space allows me to work on research, writing, meeting with students and colleagues, and paint all in one location. I can quickly turn from one activity to another without losing much time. The space allows me to be more productive and yet also intuitive in my work methods. I can shift from one activity to another as suits my thoughts.

More than 25 years ago, a journalist wrote a profile titled “The Myriad Careers of David Garneau.” It seemed absurd at the time; I did not think much was getting done, in multiple directions. I now see that each direction is connected and necessarily part of a larger project.

Writing is the most difficult because I try to write somewhere between an academic position and as an artist. I am not an academic writer. I write for occasions and need; to specific audiences. I am analytical by nature but it is a  logic continuously disturbed by intuition and relationships with people otherwise composed. Art, for me, is form of problem solving and making. While making art, I feel in connection with multiple art histories, theories, and artists. It is a space of more play than I allow in writing. However, much of my art concerns Métis folks, so I often feel more responsible than playful in much of that work. While some of Métis work has a playful and provocative function, much of it fueled by a sense of responsibility to community.

3. What practice brings the most personal fulfillment for you?

They are interconnected and often happen at the same time. While painting I am thinking about curation and writing. While writing, I wish I were painting. They are all fulfilling. I take inordinate pleasure in a beautiful sentence or passage of paint. I get deep enjoyment from coaching students through their projects. While most of my fun in at my computer and easel, I increasingly enjoy that some of my work is well received, that it impacts people beyond myself.

4. You engage in subject matter such as contemporary Aboriginal identity, history, masculinity, and nature. What topics within each subject matter most interests you? Why?

My interests oscillate. I am interested in patterns that echo throughout all these areas. I am interested in examining the structure of things and relationships. I am perhaps most interested in how hierarchies, rhetoric, belief, and power function similarly in the construction of identity, the maintenance of culture, the formation of gender, and the construction and perception of nature. I am intrigued how metaphysical claims and experiences disrupt, but also, inform materialist thinking and structures; particularly how marginalized persons and communities use revealed truth to resist the materialist, logocentric, and exploitative strategies of dominant classes.

5. In general, what seem like the main conversations, academic and public, around contemporary Aboriginal identity?

There is a complex and deep division between actual (and perceived) academics and non-academic Indigenous people. The divide is both a class difference and a difference in world-view. Those who maintain and live the, for example, Cree worldview, are at foundational odds with academic ways of knowing and being. And professors who try to maintain, for example, a Cree worldview face enormous stress to be different and to exploit their knowledge and people. I am interested in modes particularly art and writing that attempts to bridge this gap, create true collaborations, or at least reveal the complexity of Indigenous identity beyond capture.

6. What best defines a healthy masculinity in the modern world, especially throughout Canada?

Introspection; self-conscious discussion among men and boys, and then with women. I feel the need for this work most profoundly, but have not been able to engage the task beyond the personal in effective ways.  I have learned and unlearned and troubled masculinity in working partnerships with female curators and artists; in relation with my partner, Sylvia Ziemann (also an artist); with my children; my early work in daycare, and teaching in majority female settings—and it might not be a masculinity treasured by many other sorts of men. I don’t know.

7. You have painting collections in “the Canadian Museum of Civilization, The Canadian Parliament, Indian and Inuit Art Centre, the Glenbow Museum, the Mackenzie Art Gallery and many other public and private collections.”[5] This is a distinguished list of places. What does this national representation mean to you?

I am honoured to have paintings in these places; but more than an honour, it is strategic. Having contemporary Indigenous art in public collections, having political Indigenous work in collections that have curatorial programs ensures that Indigenous being and concerns will be part of that region’s patrimony and future discourse. I once asked Alex Janvier why he let his paintings be collected by a oil company that was ravaging his territory. He said “They don’t know what they have.” He saw his works as evidence: his presence in their space, but also, many of those paintings are maps of the Cold Lake region. They are a form of land claim. At base, my goal is to have Métis presence in public spaces, and to show that we are contemporary people. But more than simply occupy these spaces with aesthetic content, I also want to disturb the assumptions that have regulated these places, collections, and the imaginaries that enable them and their multiple subjects. Each new thing brought into the museum creates a subtle disturbance in the collection. And some things create dramatic disturbances.

8. You have curated more by theme including The End of the World (as we know it), Picture Windows: New Abstraction, Transcendent Squares, Sophisticated Folk, Contested Histories, Making it Like a Man!, Graphic Visions, and TEXTiles.[6] What is the process for the origination, development, and presentation of thematic curations?

Each is different. Lately, I have been working with Indigenous women to co-curate exhibitions in Regina, Sydney, and New York. I appreciate the dialogic nature of these relationships; the give and take; the evolving of ideas, and especially working through our similar ethical and community-minded concerns. My/our usual approach begins with knowing the field, who is making what. Then, doing research to find out what we don’t know that might bear some relation to what we do know. Many of the group shows work in this thematic way. I have also produced many solo or two-person exhibitions that are not. I think of most curation as a form of public discourse in which thinkers in the art medium communicate their ideas of current topics. I like thematic exhibitions because they include and exceed individual projects.

9. You give talks around the world. What tend to be the contents and intended messages of them?

I am an occasional speaker, one who rises to the occasion as best I can. Lately, I have talked about how museum collection mandates have lead to the production of hoards which distort contemporary practices; how museums and art galleries are designed to disable; how we might Indigenize these spaces, not for reasons of fairness and equal representation but because Indigenous ways of being and knowing are more humane. I have also talked about how Indigenous identity is based on migration rather than static location; I critique decolonial theory as primarily designed for truly post-colonial territories and to improve the lives of Settler peoples, and promote notions of non-colonial practice which focus on Indigenous ways of being and knowing, rather than focus on the deconstruction of European ways. I am also interested in deep readings of art works, in showing how contemporary Indigenous create haptic and intellectual objects, how they shape ideas and identities through non-propositional, non-verbal means.

10. You taught Drawing, Graduate Theory, and Painting courses. For five years, at Alberta College of Art and Design, you were a sessional instructor in the humanities and studio art. You are an associate professor at The University of Regina. What were, and have been, some of the most memorable and enjoyable moments with students and faculty?

Teaching is at the center of my practice. I am continuously humbled by new minds and talents. I never take this job for granted. I don’t reduce it to a job in the usual sense. While I love lecturing to large groups, sharing ideas, I especially like working one-to-one, or in small studio groups, helping students see and develop their practice. I enjoy the technical aspects of painting and drawing, but it is helping students understand their work in a larger sense—within the artworlds, as a life-long trajectory, in relation to ideas in other fields, in relation to community—that I find the most engaging.

11. Any advice for young gifted artists?

As early as you can, commit to a practice and project that can sustain and exceed you. That is, discover a practice or medium that you can master but that will offer life-long challenges. This focus and depth will sustain you despite vagarities of the market or intellectual climate. Focus on a project that is more than your internal processes, that includes a deep engagement in the world. Nurture and be nurtured by mentors, colleagues, and community. Travel. Take care of business.

12. Any recommendations on mastering individual expression and technique for art?

No. I’m not much into individual expression.

13. You have moderate exposure in the media.[7],[8] What responsibilities come with this public recognition?

Very moderate exposure. I’m not keen on it unless it is in support of larger issues. For example, my performance work—especially the Louis Riel/John A. Macdonald works—is generally in public, non-art world settings. I want to reach a more general public, and for that media exposure is central, so I welcome it in those cases. I am less interested in media that wants to focus on my work as autobiography.

14. What about to the arts community?

I spent the 90s helping to build up the Calgary arts scene, primarily through critical writing. I co-founded Artichoke and Cameo magazines, and wrote locally and nationally about the Alberta scene. For the past 15 years, I have focused on contemporary Indigenous art and widened my scope to include the rest of Canada and into Australia. I see public thinking about Indigenous art as a primary responsibility.

15. What seems like the most emotionally ‘taxing’ part of artistic work for you?

It is easy to relax into a trope that has decreasing currency because it is more pleasurable. I’d rather paint conventional still life and landscape painting. They have their own challenges but they don’t have much engagement beyond pleasure. Keep up with current thinking and making is heard work. Being somewhat in the public eye—small public, smiling eyes (usually)—you worry about making a mistake, saying an irresponsible thing. I’m an introvert. I prefer being alone in the studio, or one-on-one. Public speaking, being in public as a known person, is draining. However, if I am in Indigenous or art or idea—and especially Indigenous, art, and idea company!—I am in bliss. I am energized by good company.

16. Any feelings or thoughts in conclusion?

As above, I am uncomfortable talking about myself. I prefer if readers were to look up my art and essays.

Thank you for your time, Professor Garneau.

Bibliography

  1. CBC News Ottawa. (2016, May 4). Carmen Papalia, blind artist, says museums need to be more accessible. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/art-accessible-carmen-papalia-1.3562614.
  2. Latimer, K. (2016, May 11). Artist says Regina’s $10K for Taylor Field tribute at Mosaic Stadium not enough. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/taylor-field-tribute-not-enough-money-mosaic-stadium-1.3575426.
  3. The University of Regina. (2016). David Garneau Online Portfolio. Retrieved from http://uregina.ca/~garneaud/.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Associate Professor, Faculty of Fine Arts in the Visual Arts Department, The University of Regina.

[2] B.F.A. (Distinction, 1989), Painting and Drawing, University of Calgary; M.A. (1993), English Literature, University of Calgary.

[3] Photograph courtesy of Professor David Garneau.

[4] David Garneau (2016) states:

David Garneau‘s work focuses on painting, drawing, curation and critical writing. He often engages issues of nature, history, masculinity and contemporary Aboriginal identity. His paintings are in the collections of the Canadian Museum of Civilization, The Canadian Parliament, Indian and Inuit Art Centre, the Glenbow Museum, the Mackenzie Art Gallery and many other public and private collections. He curated several large group exhibitions: The End of the World (as we know it); Picture Windows: New Abstraction; Transcendent Squares; Sophisticated Folk; Contested Histories; Making it Like a Man! and Graphic Visions and TEXTiles.

He has recently given talks in Melbourne, Adelaide, New York, San Diego, Sacramento, and key note lectures in Sydney, Toronto, Edmonton and Sault Ste Marie. Garneau is currently working on curatorial and writing projects featuring contemporary Aboriginal art exchanges between Canada and Australia. His teaching responsibilities include Painting, Drawing and Graduate Theory courses. Before joining the faculty at the U of R, he spent five years as a sessional instructor in humanities and studio art at the Alberta College of Art and Design.

The University of Regina. (2016). David Garneau. Retrieved from http://www.uregina.ca/mediaartperformance/faculty-staff/faculty/f-garneau-david.html.

[5] Ibid.

[6] Ibid.

[7] CBC News Ottawa. (2016, May 4). Carmen Papalia, blind artist, says museums need to be more accessible. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/art-accessible-carmen-papalia-1.3562614.

[8] Latimer, K. (2016, May 11). Artist says Regina’s $10K for Taylor Field tribute at Mosaic Stadium not enough. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/taylor-field-tribute-not-enough-money-mosaic-stadium-1.3575426.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Associate Professor David Garneau [Online].November 2016; 12(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-david-garneau.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, November 22). An Interview with Associate Professor David Garneau. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-david-garneau.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Associate Professor David Garneau. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A, November. 2016. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-david-garneau>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An Interview with Associate Professor David Garneau.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-david-garneau.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Associate Professor David Garneau.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A (November 2016). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-david-garneau.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Dr. Harriet Hall, M.D.‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 12.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-david-garneau>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Associate Professor David Garneau‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 12.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-david-garneau.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Associate Professor David Garneau.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 12.A (2016):November. 2016. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-david-garneau>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Associate Professor David Garneau [Internet]. (2016, November; 12(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-david-garneau.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2016-11-15

An Interview with Dr. Harriet Hall, M.D.

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 12.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Eight)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: November 15, 2016

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,044

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

An interview with Dr. Harriet Hall, M.D. She discusses: a short preface before the interview; geographic, cultural, and linguistic personal and familial background; influence on background; original interests in medicine, science, and skepticism/critical thinking; some benign consequences of skepticism’s absence; some historical and big negative consequences seen from its absence; some personal favorites of egregious examples of alternative medicine without efficacy; some individuals that promote pseudoscience, bad science, and non-science as medicine in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary; failure of prayer in studies and similar examples and outcomes; and the best tools to fight against fallacious beliefs and claims, especially in medicine.

Keywords: Committee for Skeptical Inquiry, Harriett Hall, science-based medicine.

An Interview with Dr. Harriet Hall, M.D.: Elected Fellow (2010), Committee for Skeptical Inquiry[1],[2],[3]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & bibliography & citation style listing after the interview.*

1. To begin the conversation, we need a short preface. Upon receiving the interview request, you mentioned Outliers and Outsiders for the theme of the series. I mentioned some interviewees and sub-themes within this series because it is an exploratory set of interviewees with trends throughout it. You did not self-identify as an outlier or an outsider. What did you mean by that?

I consider myself to be firmly inside the mainstream of science-based medicine. The practitioners of alternative medicine, the cranks, and the quacks are the outsiders. I don’t consider myself an outlier in the sense of someone who differs from other members of a group. I would accept that I am near the top of the bell curve in that I am far more rigorous about scientific standards than the majority of physicians, and I have spent far more time learning about human psychology, research pitfalls, and critical thinking skills.

2. Now, in terms of geography, culture, and language, where does your personal and familial background reside?

I don’t think that sort of information is very meaningful. What matters is whether my thinking is rational and evidence-based, not what factors in my background might have influenced me to think that way. But I’ll oblige. I grew up in Seattle, Washington in a WASP culture, speaking English. My father was a professor of engineering and my mother was a housewife. I learned to speak fluent Spanish and I lived in Spain for seven years, which gave me insight into other cultures.

3. How did this seem to influence development?

I think what most influenced my development was the opportunity to get a good education and read a lot of books. From a young age, I believed I could learn to do anything and could choose any occupation; although I did have to deal with a certain amount of prejudice against women.

4. You earned a B.A. and an M.D from the University of Washington. You are a retired family physician. What were the original interests in medicine, science, and skepticism/critical thinking for you?

I was not a science nerd; my BA was in Spanish language and literature. I was better at humanities than at science, but I chose to study medicine because I found medicine fascinating and because it offered a practical career. I think I always had a propensity to question authority and dogma, and I stopped believing in God by the age of 13; but I didn’t really become a skeptic/critical thinker until I started reading Skeptical Inquirer magazine and skeptical books, long after I was out of school. I was attracted to skepticism because it taught me that I was wrong about some of the things I had believed or never really questioned, and I found it very satisfying to correct my errors and learn truths about reality. I didn’t start writing until after I retired (I retired from the Air Force Medical Corps as a full colonel after twenty years service, the day before my 44th birthday). I found I could use my medical knowledge to educate the public about critical thinking and false beliefs about health.

5. What are some benign consequences of skepticism’s absence?

I don’t think there is anything benign about the absence of skepticism. Skepticism means not accepting beliefs without evidence, and that’s crucial to every aspect of life. If people don’t go by evidence they’re likely to make mistakes, whether it’s choosing a washing machine or deciding whether to get vaccinated. Skeptics are willing to admit that they could be wrong. I think that the biggest problem the world faces is people who are absolutely certain they are right about anything. Some people might consider belief in homeopathy to be benign, because the remedies are only water and have no side effects. Some people believe that placebos are benign, and “after all, they make people feel better.” But patients have died because they used homeopathy or other placebo treatments in place of effective treatments.

6. What are some historical and big negative consequences seen from its absence?

Where to start? Religious wars, persecution of minorities, genocide, denial of global warming, preventable diseases coming back because people refuse vaccines… I could go on and on.

7. Your main research and criticism is directed at alternative medicine. What are some personal favorites of egregious examples of alternative medicine without efficacy?

There’s no such thing as alternative medicine; there’s only medicine that has been proven to work and medicine that hasn’t. Once something has been proven to work, it’s not “alternative,” It’s just “medicine.” By definition, alternative treatments are not supported by good enough evidence to have earned them a place in mainstream medical practice. Perhaps the most egregious example is dilute homeopathic remedies, where every molecule of the active ingredient has been diluted out of a remedy. Homeopathy has been tested. It doesn’t work. It couldn’t possibly work unless our knowledge of physics, chemistry, and biology is wrong. Another egregious example is therapeutic touch and other types of “energy medicine” that claim to be manipulating an imaginary “human energy field.” Scientists have never detected any such thing, despite their ability to detect and quantify all kinds of energies down to the subatomic level. I have a 10-part video lecture series on YouTube where I discuss science-based medicine and all kinds of alternative medicines, with many more examples.

8. Who are some individuals that promote pseudoscience, bad science, and non-science as medicine in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary?

I could name lots of names, starting with Dr. Oz, AIDS denialists, cancer quacks, infamous Internet promoters of pseudoscience, and anti-vaccine zealots; but the more interesting question is whether they actually believe in what they are promoting (some are charlatans just out to make a buck, but I think most really do believe) and if so, why. That is covered in my video lecture series. It basically boils down to the way the human brain works. We are far more impressed by stories than by studies, we are so good at pattern recognition that we see patterns that aren’t real (like the Virgin Mary on a toasted cheese sandwich), we tend to jump to conclusions before we have all the evidence, and we let emotions trump reason. Science and critical thinking don’t come naturally to us; it requires a lot of education and effort to overcome our brain’s default thought processes, and not everyone can do it.

9. There are long-standing traditions such as prayer, where the efficacy is asserted by practitioners. Also, it tends to be claimed as unamenable to scientific and proper medical testing, which does not seem true/seems false. It has been done. When properly tested in double-blind, randomized trials, prayer fails the tests. What are some other similar examples and their outcomes?

All medical claims can be scientifically tested. Homeopaths claim that their treatments are too individualized to be studied in a randomized controlled trial like drugs are, but that’s nonsense. They could do their individualized prescribing and the patients could be randomized to either get what the homeopath prescribed or a placebo control. The two options could be coded, numbered, and dispensed by a third party who didn’t know which was which. Energy medicine practitioners could be tested to see if they can actually detect a “human energy field.” Therapeutic touch practitioners have been tested and have failed miserably.

10. James Randi makes continual reminders about everyone with the possibility of being fooled, even the scientifically educated and those with an inclination for critical thinking. Dr. Michael Shermer points to the Baloney Detection Kit, which was inspired by (the late) Dr. Carl Sagan. Those seem like good starts. You are associated with some initiatives such as the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry, Institute for Science in Medicine, Quackwatch, and Science-Based Medicine.[4],[5],[6],[7] What seem like the best tools to fight against fallacious beliefs and claims to you, especially in medicine?

If people have arrived at their beliefs without evidence, they are not likely to change their beliefs just because we show them evidence. And people violently resist the idea that they could have been fooled by others or could have deceived themselves. We are not likely to change fallacious beliefs; our goal is to put accurate information out there where seekers have a chance to find it instead of only finding false information. We direct our efforts at those who haven’t yet irrevocably made up their minds and at those who maybe haven’t even thought about the subject yet. Those are stop-gap measures. We are engaged in a neverending, Sisyphean struggle. The real solution would be to teach critical thinking skills to all children starting at the pre-school level, with constant reinforcement throughout education including the post-graduate level.

Thank you for your time, Dr. Hall.

Bibliography

  1. Committee for Skeptical Inquiry. (2016). CSI Fellows and Staff. Retrieved from http://www.csicop.org/about/csi_fellows_and_staff.
  2. Institute for Science in Medicine. (2016). Institute for Science in Medicine. Retrieved from http://www.scienceinmedicine.org/.
  3. Science-Based Medicine. (2016). Science-Based Medicine. Retrieved from https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/
  4. (2016). Quackwatch. Retrieved from http://www.quackwatch.com/.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Elected Fellow (2010), Committee for Skeptical Inquiry; Board & Founding Member, Institute for Science in Medicine; Advisor, Quackwatch; Associate Editor, Science-Based Medicine; (Retired) Family Physician.

[2] B.A., University of Washington; M.D., University of Washington.

[3] Photograph courtesy of Dr. Harriet Hall, M.D.

[4] Committee for Skeptical Inquiry. (2016). CSI Fellows and Staff. Retrieved from http://www.csicop.org/about/csi_fellows_and_staff.

[5] Institute for Science in Medicine. (2016). Institute for Science in Medicine. Retrieved from http://www.scienceinmedicine.org/.

[6] Science-Based Medicine. (2016). Science-Based Medicine. Retrieved from https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/

[7] Quackwatch. (2016). Quackwatch. Retrieved from http://www.quackwatch.com/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Dr. Harriet Hall, M.D. [Online].November 2016; 12(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-harriet-hall-m-d.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, November 15). An Interview with Dr. Harriet Hall, M.D.. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-harriet-hall-m-d.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Dr. Harriet Hall, M.D.. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A, November. 2016. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-harriet-hall-m-d>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An Interview with Dr. Harriet Hall, M.D..” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-harriet-hall-m-d.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Dr. Harriet Hall, M.D..” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A (November 2016). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-harriet-hall-m-d.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Dr. Harriet Hall, M.D.‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 12.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-harriet-hall-m-d>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Dr. Harriet Hall, M.D.‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 12.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-harriet-hall-m-d.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Dr. Harriet Hall, M.D..” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 12.A (2016):November. 2016. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-harriet-hall-m-d>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Dr. Harriet Hall, M.D. [Internet]. (2016, November; 12(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-harriet-hall-m-d.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2016-11-08

An Interview with Minister Anthony Grigor-Scott

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 12.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Eight)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: November 8, 2016

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,901

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

An Interview with Minister Anthony Grigor-Scott, Bible Believers’ Church (Sydney, New South Wales, Australia). He discusses: cultural, geographic, linguistic, and religious family background; influence on development; being a follower and minister of William Branham; characterization of William Branham in and out of the followers; the reasons for believing; the essential message of William Branham and the Gospel; whether followers of William Branham are part of a cult or not; core doctrines of the followers of William Branham; experience in and out of the community of believers; and the reasons for non-believers to follow the Believers’ theology.

Keywords: Anthony Grigor-Scott, Believers, cult, Gospel, Minister, Prophet, William Branham.

An Interview with Minister Anthony Grigor-Scott: Bible Believers’ Church (Sydney, New South Wales, Australia)[1],[2],[3]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & bibliography & citation style listing after the interview.* 

1. In terms of culture, geography, language, and religion, where does your family background reside?

Australian-born, I represent the third generation of my family whose paternal antecedents emigrated from Scotland and my maternal antecedents from England.  In my formative years Australia was a homogenous nation of British stock speaking English and sharing social mores across an egalitarian socio-economic spectrum. As to religion, one was either Roman Catholic or Protestant and in those days even children were aware of the irreconcilable division.

2. How did this influence development?

My family were nominal Protestants; I attended Anglican Schools where chapel was weekly and divinity and comparative religions were taught. I attended Sunday school and later church which stood me in good stead as I have always believed in and loved the Lord Jesus. Business took me overseas: I began to seek the Lord and realized He has much more for His children than the modern-day Anglican Church has apprehended. Casting my net I attended YMCA chapel on six mornings, two weekly and one monthly charismatic service, Assemblies of God Sunday morning, Anglican services Sunday and Wednesday evenings and visited other denominations seeking further Light.

3. You are a follower of William Branham. What were pivotal or influential moments for you in becoming a follower and minister?

I follow William Branham as he follows Christ, listen with all readiness of mind then search the scriptures to ensure I am receiving the mind of Christ. A Scotsman who visited our Monday evening charismatic group introduced me to William Branham’s ministry. I recognized from the Bible there is no trinity in either the Old or New Testaments. Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three offices or dispensation claims. Jesus Christ,: the Author and Beginner of creation (John 1:3; Genesis 1:1) is that One Person creating Himself part of another, NEW CREATION—the continuation of Himself in the Church formed from the Holy Spirit taken from His side as Eve was the continuation of the first Adam being formed from flesh and bone taken from his side (Revelation 3:14; Colossians 1:18; II Corinthians 5:17). So the Bible is the story of God changing His form or unfolding Himself from the eternal Spirit alone with His thoughts to the flesh of His glorified Family. Jesus was the first God-Man—the virgin-born fullness of the godhead manifest in flesh to fulfil the part of KINSMAN Redeemer for Adam’s fallen race.

This essential revelation changed my life; the Bible became a new Book and I began my Christian journey. In obedience I was baptized by immersion in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ which is the Name (singular) of God’s three main offices (Matthew 28:18; Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38-39; Colossians 3:17). God’s Absolute is His Holy Bible. Apostle’s Creeds, catechisms, Easters and Christmases, a clerical hierarchy and organized religions are unscriptural reasoning against faith.

Since the fall every man is born in sin and cannot meet God’s requirement for redemption. Jesus was born by the will of the Father to do the will of the Father. In order to “born-again by the will of God” (John 1:13) we must recognize our day and become written epistles of its Message which is “the present Truth” —what Jesus is doing now (II Peter 1:12; I John 1:7). Otherwise ignorance will have us impersonating the Word for a day gone by as the Anglicans impersonate Martin Luther’s Sardis Church Age which ended in 1750.

Israel’s feast of Pentecost types the Gentile dispensation of grace which commenced the day of Christ’s resurrection and was followed by seven sabbaths or Church Ages distinguished by seven distinct baptisms of the Spirit that quickened the Word for the Age delivered by the “angel” to the Age. These seven men were Paul, Irenaeus, Martin, Columba, Martin Luther, John Wesley and William Branham. God’s Word comes only to a prophet; Paul was the prophet who wrote the New Testament expounding the common faith once delivered to the apostolic saints.

Through the Church Ages the Bible was sealed so Christ interceded for His elect, receiving their revelation of the Word for the hour He “winked at” their ignorance of the fullness and they were born-again. Laodicea ended in apostasy but the seventh angel was a prophet whose mission was “to restore the heart of His elect to the faith of their apostolic fathers, before striking the world with a curse” (Malachi 4:5-6b; Matthew 17:11). The Lord will do nothing without first showing a sign in the heavens and sending a prophet with warning and a way to escape the judgment (Psalm 19; Revelation 10:1-4; Amos 3:7).

After the end of the seventh Church Age and mediation Jesus claimed the Book of Redemption, opened the Seven Seals and took the throne as the saints crowned Him King of Kings and Judge (Revelation 4; 5; 10:1-7; John 5:27).  At this point William Branham received his anointing to reveal the mysteries of the Seven Thunders of Revelation 10 that are the revelations contained in the Seven Seals. It is these divinely revealed ‘mystery-truths’ that literally turn the heart of the children to their Pentecostal fathers. The denominations “know it not [and] scoffers, walking after their own lusts say: where is the promise of His [second or (Gk.) ‘parousia’] Coming? For since the fathers fell asleep all things continue as they were” (Matthew 12:32; II Peter 3:3-4; Revelation 3:17).

We live under the antitype of the holy convocation of the fiftieth day of Israel’s Pentecostal feast and by God’s help we have the perfect interpretation of His Word with divine vindication. Thus we no longer labour like the Church Age saints trying to ‘solve’ the mysteries of the Sealed Book,  because “in the days of the voice of the seventh angel the mystery of God was finished, as Christ had declared to His servants the prophets” (Revelation 10:7).

A further ‘pivotal moment’ was the revelation that redemption is over. Christ’s end-time Bride and the 144,000 elect Israelites were fully redeemed in Christ on Calvary being foreknown as receiving the fullness of the Word in the revelation of the Seven Seals or the Seven Trumpets. The Church Age saints received only PART-Word so the Blood laid on the Mercy Seat and Christ interceded for their ignorance until the last saint ordained to  the Laodicean Church Age was baptized into the Body (I Corinthians 13:10) and the Mercy Seat became the Judgment Seat.

From school days I knew God had promised a prophet, and “proving all things” I saw that the doctrine of this humble man was the faith once delivered to our apostolic fathers.

4. Outside of the “Believers,” he was a post-World War II Healing Revival preacher. Inside, to the Believers, he was a modern Prophet. What characterizes each perspective to you?

Outside:

Quoting II Timothy 4:2-5 the Lord commanded His prophet, “Do the work of an evangelist; this is not your tabernacle.” And I said, “Where is my tabernacle?” And He set me down under the bright blue sky, and He said, “Do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of your ministry. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but shall heap for themselves teachers, having itching ears and shall be turned from the truth to fables.”

He was to do the work of an evangelist until Laodicea apostatised: “make full proof of his ministry . . . and reveal the Son of man by discerning the thoughts and intents of the heart as it was in the days of Lot” (Luke 17:28-30; Genesis 18-19; Hebrews 4:12; 13:8). In the days of Lot three created men visited Abraham’s separated group. Abraham worshipped one Man as Elohim; He proved He was the Word by discerning the thoughts and intents of Abraham and Sarah’s hearts, the same sign would identify Jesus as the Christ. Meanwhile His two companions delivered a basic salvation Message to the inhabitants of Sodom.

The world is in a Sodom condition and Luke 17:28-30 was fulfilled when the Holy Spirit, veiled behind William Branham, a sinner-saved-by grace, “revealed Jesus Christ the same, yesterday, today and forever by discerning the thoughts and intents of the heart”; raising the dead, casting out demons, restoring sight to the blind, speech  and hearing to deaf mutes, making cripples whole and healing diseases while two messengers, Billy Graham and Oral Roberts preached to the churches in Sodom.

Matthew 24:37 (Genesis 6:1-4) is also fulfilled.  As it was in the days of Noah we live in a day of unparalleled scientific achievement, wealth, violence, corruption, and a repetition of the ‘original sin’ on a global scale—miscegenation between the races of Cain and Adam. This is genocide to Adam’s race as the progeny are not in the Book of Life. Applauded by apostate churchmen and self-seeking politicians, ‘multiculturalism’ is accursed by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel; (Genesis 1:11, 25; 3:15; Revelation 22:18-19) as Jesus is the last Adam; He is not the last Cain.

Inside:

In the realm of the Supernatural William Branham’s ministry, like that of Jesus the Son of man whom he revealed, was to attract believers for his end-time Message which is the “Shout” of I Thessalonians 4:16 and the “midnight cry” of Matthew 25:6, confirmed by the “Voice” of Revelation 18:4 “calling the wise and foolish virgins out from Rome and her harlot daughter churches” into “the unity of the faith” for “the manifestation of the Sons of God and the translation” after the Laodiceans “turned away their ears from the truth unto fables” (Revelation 17:5; Ephesians 4:13; Romans 8:19; I Corinthians 15:52).

When Jesus Christ and William Branham were manifesting the Supernatural they were welcome in every synagogue and church; but when they delivered their Message each was rejected. And as John the Baptist introduced Christ’s first Coming, Brother Branham’s Message introduced His second or (Gk.) ‘parousia’ Coming in W_O_R_D form (I Corinthians 13:10). We are not to look for the Man from Galilee but for Light on the Word (Matthew 24:22-28; Zechariah 4:7).

Revelation 4, 5 and 10:1-4, the Laodicean Church Age and Christ’s mediation in the office Son of God were fulfilled on about March 8, 1963. From March 17- 24, 1963 the Prophet received his ‘Elijah’ anointing as he delivered The Revelation of the Seven Seals which brought Christ back to earth in W_O_R_D form (I Corinthians 13:10).

5. What convinces you of your perspective?

“My perspective is scriptural.” Many denominational people declare we are living in “the end-time” yet they have no prophet, no understanding of the Seven Seals, and have not seen the heavenly sign which are all mandated (Revelation 10:1-7; Amos 3:7).  “The end-time” cannot begin until the Lord displays a sign in the heavens and Christ opens and then reveals the Seven Seals through His prophet (Daniel 12:4, 9; Revelation 10:4). With the US dollar and world economy close to collapse and the United States anxious to fight Iran, Russia and China there is insufficient time for a prophet to fulfil Malachi 4:5, 6b and Revelation 10:7. So whoever he was, that prophet has been and his ministry was identical to that of William Branham.

William Branham passed the test for a prophet (Numbers 12:6; Deuteronomy 13:1-5; 18:15-22) and fulfilled all Scripture spoke concerning him. “My perspective” is based on scriptures fulfilled in our lifetime, testified by witnesses, recorded on film and in print, and preserved in 1,188 recorded sermons which feature thousands of discernments, prophecies and healings. William Branham was a prophet as thoroughly vindicated, or even more thoroughly vindicated than any prophet in all the ages from Enoch to this day, because this man of necessity had the capstone prophetic ministry, and God showed him forth. He did not need to speak for himself; God spoke for him by the voice of the sign.

6. What is the essential message of William Branham and the Gospel?

William Branham’s essential Message was founded on the revelations of the prophet Paul whose Message was built upon the revelations of the prophet Moses. It restored the apostolic faith, finished the mystery of God, introduced Christ’s second Coming and is calling Christ’s end-time Bride out from the world into oneness with the fullness of the Word which is Christ. It initiated the threefold PROCESS of the ‘rapture’ described in I Thessalonians 4:14-17 which began after the revelation of the Seven Seals in 1963. Thus William Branham’s Message will crown the Good News when “we which are alive and remain are caught up together with the resurrected Church Age saints to meet the Lord in the air”.

7. Some characterize the movement as a cult. Does this seem accurate to you? If not, why not?

Unless they realize God promised us a Prophet and that whoever he was he has been, they have failed to “prove all things” and “make their calling and election sure.”  It seems pride in wilful ignorance has preceded their fall, and their self-assured cultic folly shall be manifest to all men.

8. What are the core doctrines of the Believers of William Branham?

A clear understanding of the true Oneness of the godhead, scriptural water baptism in the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ which is the compound redemptive Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost (Acts 4:12; I Corinthians 10:48; Ephesians 4:5), and  the original sin.

9. What has been your experience of life in and out of the community of Believers?

The majority in community of Believers (so-called) are not born-again but like their nation they are under the spirit of Laodicea which means ‘people’s rights’ or communism (Revelation 3:14-22). When the Lord translates His end-time Bride they will so few they will not be missed amid the terrible natural catastrophes that strike earth with the curse of God’s wrath. “Strait is the gate and narrow is the way which leads unto eternal Life, and few there are that find it”.

I am astounded at the apostasy of the world church system and the corruption of our base and violent (once) Christian nations which remain vassals of the City of London, Vatican City State and its city state of the District of Columbia.

10. Why should non-believers follow the Believers’ theology?

Believers have ‘knee-ology’: theology is the educated guesses of educated men long deceased. Theology hung Jesus on the Cross! By theology many are “crucifying unto themselves the Son of God afresh and putting Him to an open shame.” Revelation 13:15-18 informs us that in several years those who refuse the mark of the beast, which is the trinity, will be martyred by the churches. United States’ al Qaeda mercenaries are now setting the stage for blind self-righteous retribution by the false church and its (once) Protestant image.  Jesus told Peter He would build His Church on the rock of revelation from Above and that the gates of hell could not prevail against faith. Without faith with repentance non-believers cannot follow the Lord.

Thank you for your time, Minister Grigor-Scott.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Minister Bible Believers’ Church (Sydney, New South Wales, Australia).

[2] Individual Publication Date: November 8, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Photograph courtesy of Minister Antony Grigor-Scott.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Minister Anthony Grigor-Scott [Online].November 2016; 12(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-minister-anthony-grigor-scott.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, November 8). An Interview with Minister Anthony Grigor-Scott. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-minister-anthony-grigor-scott.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Minister Anthony Grigor-Scott. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A, November. 2016. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-minister-anthony-grigor-scott>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An Interview with Minister Anthony Grigor-Scott.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-minister-anthony-grigor-scott.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Minister Anthony Grigor-Scott.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A (November 2016). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-minister-anthony-grigor-scott.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Minister Anthony Grigor-Scott‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 12.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-minister-anthony-grigor-scott>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Minister Anthony Grigor-Scott‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 12.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-minister-anthony-grigor-scott.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Minister Anthony Grigor-Scott.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 12.A (2016):November. 2016. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-minister-anthony-grigor-scott>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Minister Anthony Grigor-Scott [Internet]. (2016, November; 12(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-minister-anthony-grigor-scott.

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Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2016-11-01

An Interview with John Collins

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 12.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Eight)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: November 1, 2016

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 4, 993

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

An interview with John Collins. He discusses: cultural, geographic, linguistic, and religious family background; influence on his development; pivotal moments in following Branham and then not; characterization of members and non-members; what convinces him of his perspective; the essential message of William Branham and the Gospel; the potential status of the movement as a cult; the core doctrines of the Believers of William Branham; experience of life in and out of the William Branham community; and the reason Believers (and non-believers) should not follow the Believers’ theology.

Keywords: Believers, cult, Gospel, John Collins, Prophet, William Branham.

An Interview with John Collins: Author & Webmaster, Seek The Truth[1],[2],[3]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & bibliography & citation style listing after the interview.* 

1. In terms of culture, geography, language, and religion, where does your family background reside?

I was born in Jeffersonville, Indiana, and was raised in the states of Indiana, Arizona, South Carolina, Georgia, and Kansas.  Culturally, we were a mixture of different parts of the country, but I would say that the Southern Indiana culture had a great influence.  Both maternal and paternal sides of my family claimed to be “non-denominational Christian,” but aligned more closely with a unique flavor of Pentecostalism that originated in Indiana.

2. How did this influence development?

My grandfather was a key figure in the groups and splinter groups that form the religious following of William Branham that is collectively called “The Message.”  For about fifty years, my grandfather was the leader of Branham’s Tabernacle in Jeffersonville, Indiana. After Branham’s death in 1965, my grandfather was partially responsible for holding the cult together.

3. You were a follower of William Branham. What were pivotal or influential moments for you in becoming a follower and ex-member?

After being born and raised in “The Message,” I had little choice in becoming a member.  Because of my grandfather’s position of leadership and recognition, our family was what some would call “cult royalty,” which created a very difficult psychological barrier in attempting to leave the group.  This barrier was amplified by the group’s indoctrination. Like many religious cults, it programs its followers to believe that questioning fundamental cult doctrine is the pathway to destruction or even death.

It was after a series of life changing events that I began a journey, seeking to find answers to difficult questions that were surfacing through the indoctrinated fear.  I was suffering deep depression after job loss and severe illness in the family, and before long I began questioning life itself.  As time went on, the depression intensified and I found myself no longer able to rebound.

During this hardship, a cousin who had left “The Message” several years’ prior learned of my struggle and began phoning daily to offer support and encouragement.  This became fundamental in my exit from the group, because it was a difficult situation for my mind to reconcile.  While we were programmed to believe that any who left “The Message” were “possessed by a demon,” “backslidden,” or “evil,” my unbelieving cousin was literally saving my life from suicide.  In contrast, none in the cult were offering any support, and their neglect was beginning to seem like a result of the belief system I had begun to question.

This version of Pentecostalism focuses on “healing” as an evidence of the work of the Holy Spirit, while viewing sickness (especially mental health) as “demonic.”  As I turned to the “believers” for help, some of them associated my onset of depression with “demonic forces.”  Rather than offer support, they offered condemnation or fear.  At the climax of my struggle with depression, I was advised by professionals to begin a regimen of anti-depressants, and told that they were necessary for my body to function.  While my cousin supported their advice and encouraged me to get the help I needed, cult pastors warned me that they had witnessed others take such medication and shortly afterward, “demons led them away from ‘The Message.’”

Interestingly, I believe the cult pastors may have been correct, though I would disagree with the cause that led to the effect.

4. Outside of the “Believers,” he was a post-World War II Healing Revival preacher. Inside, to the Believers, he was a modern Prophet. What characterizes each perspective to you?

Branham was one of hundreds of evangelists who capitalized on political fear after the second World War.  There were several world-renowned healing revivalists — some of them who claimed prophecy several years before Branham’s birth.  There were also many “prophets” who gained popularity long after his death, but most of his followers are only aware of the [alleged] history Branham claimed.

People outside “the Message” can freely study his prophecies or compare his doctrine to the Christian Bible without indoctrinated fear of critical thought.  As they deprogram, many escapees study and recognize the number of times these “prophetic claims” were changed, and examine the “prophecies” that either failed or were “prophesied” long after the event they “predicted.”  Many of these people come to the conclusion that Branham was just another minister in a long line of “faith healers” in the Post WWII Healing Revival.  But “prophecies” that did not come to pass exactly as he “predicted” place Branham in a much different category with Christians examining his message.  The Christian Bible offers many warnings about men who “prophesy” and their “predictions” do not come to pass with full accuracy.  To the informed Christian community Branham would be considered a charlatan.

Those in “The Message” repeatedly listen to the published recordings of Branham’s sermons from 1947 to 1965, and their examination of Branham’s many prophetic claims is limited to his own account.  Most in “The Message” cult are not aware of any failed prophecies, and  believers are not informed of the alterations Branham made to those “predictions” or their “outcomes.”  Worse, they are sheltered from any factual evidence unsupportive of Branham’s claims, often instructed by cult pastors to avoid television, internet, social media, or other means of gaining information to promote critical thinking.  In fact, Branham himself taught that “science” and “education” was demonic.[4]

Simply put: believers who have never or only partially examined the accuracy of Branham’s “prophecies” consider him a “modern prophet.”  Those who fully examine the facts usually become “former believers”, and see Branham as just one of many in a long line of revivalists capitalizing on the fears that came with world conflict.  I myself was in the former category for over thirty years.

5. What convinces you of your perspective?

Being raised from birth under the continual undue influence of a separationist belief system makes even the smallest change in perspective extremely difficult.  Most of the people we have worked with to escape the cult describe their journey to freedom in much the same way:  “We left kicking and screaming.”  One does not easily admit being wrong, and it’s painful to accept being wrong on levels of this magnitude.  In our case, a change of perspective is to admit living in an alternate reality while striving to convince others to live there.  It took several months to fully change my perspective, and that change came only through countless hours of careful examination of the belief system and the men who created it.

At the beginning of my journey, I was convinced that Branham was a prophet, sent by Almighty God to warn the world of the coming Apocalypse.  Members of “The Message” are indoctrinated to believe that Branham started having “divine predictions” as a toddler, and those “prophetic occurrences” became more frequent as he grew older.  Cult pastors often recite or play recordings of Branham’s many accounts of his “life story,” describing a “Huck Finn”-style childhood in the hills of Kentucky, trapping and fishing to support his widowed mother and several siblings in a one-room log cabin near Burkesville, Kentucky.

During the indoctrination process, many of the children in the cult cry as they listen to the accounts of tragic events in Branham’s life that he endured under the wrath of an angry God as he was punished for avoiding his “calling” to be a Pentecostal “prophet.”  According to Branham, after having a series of “seven prophecies” as a Baptist minister in 1933 (or 1931 or 1932), he ignored “God’s calling” for him to be a Pentecostal minister at the advice of his mother-in-law.  Because of this choice, Branham claimed that his father, brother, sister-in-law, wife, and daughter died in within weeks of the 1937 Flood that pummeled the city of Jeffersonville.  Under this strong level of mental conditioning, even the adults forbid themselves to question how Branham’s father died when Branham was a small child[5] while also dying long after Branham began his own religious ministry.[6]

It is only after a “believer” is able to push through the programmed fear enough to question the belief system that they are finally able to critically examine Branham’s self-promoted claims to be a modern prophet.  Beyond those boundaries, one becomes free to examine factual evidence to either support or deny his claims.  It sometimes takes years before an ex-member can examine historical fact in a balanced and rational approach.

While the cult would have its members believe Branham’s prophetic insight was 100% accurate, newspaper and magazine articles, court record, and Branham’s own transcripts tell a much different story.  Most of his “seven prophecies” were introduced into his sermons long after the event they describe, yet many details of the “prediction” are found to be inaccurate.  Many descriptions of the “prophecies” change from retelling to retelling, to the extent that over time some become entirely new “prophecies.”  If we count the many changes, additions, and subtractions to Branham’s list of “seven prophecies,” we end up with a list of fifteen.[7]  Some of these fifteen appear to have been a result of World’s Fairs, newspaper and magazine articles.[8]

Such is the case with many of Branham’s “predictions” beyond the fifteen.  Branham convinced his followers that he predicted the death of sixteen men during the construction of an Ohio River bridge,[9] yet Coast Guard logs, bridge historians, and newspaper articles do not support his claim.  Interestingly, newspapers describe sixteen men dying years before his birth on another bridge nearby.[10]  Similarly, fundamental issues exist with each of Branham’s prophetic claims.  After a short period of examining the accuracy of his “predictions”, the examiner is forced to ask themselves the question: “Was Branham really a ‘prophet’?”

Still, this is not enough to solidify one’s position.  Though a man proclaiming to be a prophet has many failed or inaccurate prophecies, we must leave room for the title “false prophet.”  As strange as this may sound, it takes far more examination to realize that this title also does not fit.  One must separate the “mythical Branham” from the “historical Branham.”  As the researcher digs deeper into historical fact to reconstruct the “historical Branham”, or the account of Branham’s life that we can confirm through documented historical fact, one begins to question even the title “false prophet.”

Branham’s ministry began through one Rev. Roy E. Davis,[11] who fled from Louisville, Kentucky after being exposed for sex with a minor[12], fraud[13], and theft.  Davis was an official spokesman for the Ku Klux Klan[14], and was one of the founding members of William Joseph Simmons’ 1915 reincarnation of the Klan.  Davis claimed to be one of the only men who could boast of having achieved all degrees of the Klan, and helped write the Klan’s constitution, by-laws, and ritual when it was revived.[15]

Shortly after leaving Louisville, Davis started a Pentecostal Baptist church in Jeffersonville, Indiana, making Branham an elder.[16]  After a series of civil and criminal lawsuits in the Jeffersonville area, Davis left Jeffersonville, and Branham assumed leadership of the congregation.  Elders in Davis’ church transitioned into Branham’s church.[17]  From 1915 through the late 1960’s, Roy Davis left behind a trail of illegal activity from Georgia to California as he rose from official spokesperson of the Klan to Imperial Grand Dragon of the Original Knights of the Ku Klux Klan.[18]  Davis and his accomplice, former Congressman and Klansman William D. Upshaw began promoting Branham’s ministry after having claimed “prophecy” to defraud religious victims in the San Bernardino, California area.  Their promotion apparently resulted in Branham’s sudden and instant popularity, especially when the (very mobile) Upshaw claimed to be healed by Branham from a life confined to a wheelchair.[19]  After discovering the sinister history behind the creation of Branham’s ministry, along with the long trail of deception and fraud by his creators, it becomes apparent why Branham was less than truthful about his past.

The “historical” Branham casts huge doubts on Branham’s supernatural claims.  When comparing recorded history to Branham’s supernatural tales, the researcher begins to notice huge discrepancies and conflicting statements.  Tragic, life-changing events one would never forget are not consistent from retelling to retelling, and it becomes obvious that Branham embellished or created stories.  And it appears his creation was for the sole purpose of establishing the persona of an illiterate, Old-Testament-style prophet living in a modern world.

It is at this realization that most escapees of “The Message” cult begin to question every claim made by Branham.  Claims that can be examined historically, including prophecies, match the same pattern of discrepancies and conflicts. As a result, most researchers conclude that his “prophecies” are not accurate.

Once presented with the evidence, they require no convincing to leave the cult.  The facts speak for themselves, and Branham’s supernatural claims quickly unravel by studying his own testimonies.  As I stated, I was fully immersed into “The Message” for over thirty years.  When the facts became available, I fled for my life.

6. What is the essential message of William Branham and the Gospel?

When I speak to new escapees from the Branham cult, I find that it is easier to understand their particular “flavor” of “The Message” by asking them the question:  “What was Branham’s ‘Message’”.  Few cult churches agree on the nature of “The Message,” yet all assume Branham had a consistent “Message.”

All “Message” cult churches believe that Branham was sent by Almighty God to prepare the world for the second coming of Jesus Christ.  But within that summary, each “sect” of the cult has different interpretations of the “Message,” insomuch that this “preparation” becomes difficult to reconcile.  Some believe that Branham himself was the return of Jesus Christ, while others believe him to be a prophet.  Some believe him to be a prophet, but believe his “Message” was the return of Jesus Christ.  Others still believe that he was preparing the way for the Christ, just as John the Baptist did in the King James Bible.  Extremists in the “Message” cult claim that they are the Christ to replace Branham’s “Christ.”

Likely, these differences are a result of the believers falsely assuming Branham’s “Message” was consistent from 1945 to 1965.  When cult members describe his sermons as “The Message” they describe “The Message” in such a way that it would seem persistent and consistent.  Escapees who examine his sermons usually identify several fundamental inconsistencies.  Ironically, some cult sects also have identified inconsistencies, and believe that only a subset of the sermons, from 1963 to 1965 are “The Message,” creating a new “Message.”

If one fully examines the many conflicting “Messages,” however, there is one consistent theme.  Branham’s “gospel,” could be best summarized as this: God sent me [Branham], therefore the words I [Branham] speak are the Voice of God to you.  In fact, Branham himself began making this claim in 1951:

Now, I’m just your brother, by the grace of God. But when the Angel of the Lord moves down, It becomes, then, a Voice of God to you. Maybe it… If I offended you by saying that, forgive me. But I felt that might been resented. But I am God’s Voice to you. See? I say that again. That time was under inspiration. See? And I—I felt bad about it the first time, but It repeated it. Now see, I can say nothing in myself. But what He shows me, I say it.

Branham, 51-0505 – My Commission

Using this “Voice of God” statement as a basis to compare his different “Messages,” they quickly align.  He claimed that he was born the day after cult leader John Alexander Dowie died[20] (March 10, 1907), becoming the “biblical Elisha” to the believers of Dowie – who believed Dowie was the “prophet Elijah.”  Christians are familiar with Elisha’s “double portion” of the Spirit of God, and those who believe “The Message” place this endowment upon Branham.   Therefore, most believers see Branham as the “return of Elijah”.

Interestingly, Branham also claimed to have been born in two years later, 1909, for another “Message.”  In this much different “Message,” Branham claims to be similar to Moses, and convinces his followers that an “angel” told him that he would be given the same “two signs” of Moses.[21]  Though he signed his first marriage certificate using birth year 1908, and though most Christians are familiar with the “three signs of Moses,”[22] not two, many of his followers accept this version of “The Message.”  Many combine the two, believing Branham was “Elijah” who had the “two signs of Moses.”

Branham also claimed to be similar to John the Baptist, who would introduce Jesus,[23] and compared himself (or more specifically, his cult) to the “five-hundred-year-old Enoch” that walked with Noah before the Great Flood.[24]  Though the Christian Bible describes an Enoch that escaped death at age 365 and Noah as the most righteous man on the face of the planet, this version of Branham’ “gospel” compares his cult to an Enoch figure who escaped destruction while comparing other Christians to an “unrighteous Noah” that suffered the Flood.

While there are too many “Messages” to list in this article, all bear the same basic characteristics, which can be summarized as follows:

  • God is about to send “judgment” to those who did not listen to me [Branham]
  • Those who listen to me [Branham] will escape a horrific death
  • Those who oppose me [Branham] will suffer a horrific death
  • My [Branham’s] prophecies confirm this to be true
  • My [Branham’s] sermons are the Voice of Almighty God.

7. Some characterize the movement as a cult. Does this seem accurate to you? If so, why?

Any group of people who form a certain set of beliefs based around the life and times of another person is a “cult,” and that term in-and-of-itself is not problematic.  After the Jonestown Massacre when Americans were discovering the death of hundreds of members of the People’s Temple cult following of Jim Jones, this word became associated with pure evil.  Interestingly, Branham appears to have played a significant part in lifting Jones into power[25] when he held a joint meeting with Branham in Indianapolis.[26]

Whether or not “The Message” is labeled as a “cult” is not of any great importance.  But whether the group is labeled as a “destructive cult” is of great concern.  According to Steven Hassan’s B.I.T.E. model[27], a destructive cult is any group using psychological and other technique to control behavior, information, and emotions while limiting information available to its members.  Hassan’s foundation, Freedom of Mind, lists “The Message” as a mind control cult meeting all of these criteria and lists some of the ways in which they do.[28]

In working with those who have escaped the cult, we have not yet came across a single person who does not agree with Hassan’s assessment.  Many use the term “brainwashing,” many are angry that so much information has been withheld from the public, and all would remember altering their behavior to conform to the group.  It is the thought control that is most problematic, because one must fully deprogram before beginning to understand this concept or recognizing the level of control.

After deprogramming, most cult escapees feel violated in a similar manner to those who’ve suffered years of sexual or physical abuse.  Some suffer PTSD, and all who find freedom would recognize the “spiritual abuse.”

8. What are the core doctrines of the Believers of William Branham?

Like the many “Messages” of Branham, there are just as many sets of “core beliefs.”  Each set is similar in the fact that they were based upon American Pentecostalism, but differ in which core beliefs are required to “escape destruction.”  As cult victims escape, they often compare differences between the core set of doctrines in their “Message sect” to other escapees.  This comparison results in an initial state of shock, but after examining Branham’s transcripts, it becomes apparent that each set of beliefs and rules were based on Branham’s own statements.  We have attempted to capture some of the most common of these doctrines and beliefs on seekyethetruth.com, however it would be very time-consuming to identify and document them all.

9. What has been your experience of life in and out of the community of Believers?

I can honestly say that I did not feel as though I “suffered” or was “brainwashed” for the first thirty-plus years of my life while trapped in a religious cult.  In fact, it took me several months after escaping to use the word “cult.”  The people were very close to each other, like one big family.  And there are many, many good people in “The Message.”  A destructive cult cannot grow without healthy members and situations.  I did not experience the physical and sexual abuse that many cult escapees describe, and did not feel oppressed by the many extra-biblical rules.  Having been born and raised in the cult from birth, I did not long for freedoms that I had never experienced.

After escaping, however, my perspective changed considerably, and after only a few years I recognized this level of “closeness” as unhealthy.  Like having been born and raised as a prisoner-of-war who returned to America years later, the taste freedom is bittersweet.  One does not know oppression until they have experienced freedom.

Every aspect of my life has changed for the better.  No longer are my thoughts being controlled through fear tactics and psychological technique, and I’m free to think.  No longer are extra-biblical rules imposed upon me, and I’m free to worship.  No longer does my behavior conform to a group, and I have experienced the benefit of individuality.  But most important, no longer is vast amounts of information being withheld from me to make a very flawed set of beliefs appear to be perfection.

10. Why should Believers (and non-believers) not follow the Believers’ theology?

Whether you are a “believer” or an “unbeliever,” it does not take much study to recognize Branham’s self-promotion.  A simple examination of any the “messages” will paint a picture of a man whose “predictions” or “supernatural experiences” placed himself in a category above other men and women of his religious following.  Historically speaking, men who do this have led their groups to tragic destruction – some of which were a result of Branham’s influence.  Jim Jones promoted himself, and took the lives of over 900 people.  Leo Mercier, a “Message” cult pastor of a commune Branham supported, physically and sexually molested his followers.[29]  Paul Schafer’s “Message” commune in Chili was recently brought to the big screen in the movie “Colonia,” describing the rape and torture of “believers.”[30]  Any time a group of people place a single human in absolute authority of doctrine and/or scripture, it is a potential for grave danger.  The fruits of Branham’s “Message” speak for themselves.

Though these examples may seem extreme, none of the victims viewed themselves as “extremists” when recruited.  Yet they slowly became victims of extremist leaders by placing full authority of scripture and doctrine into the hands of fellow human beings.  This practice continues still today in the “Message.”  William Branham is given full authority of scripture and doctrine, and many cult pastors are given similar power while their victims fall prey.   At the same time, cult pastors are withholding controversial information for the sole purpose of limiting their victim’s choice to leave on their own free will, in a strategy very similar to the extreme examples before their tragic events.  Worse, indoctrination camps are being established to program children before they are able to make mature decisions.

The question is not whether or not cult members should follow William Branham’s “theology.”  The question is whether or not they are aware of the dangers in the choices they have made, and whether or not those choices are being influenced by the withholding of critical information.  The potential for tragedy is very high in a splintered group of “believers” who are being persuaded by limited information and undue influence.

Thank you for your time, Mr. Collins.

Bibliography

  1. A Dreadful Fate – Terrible Caisson Disaster on the Ohio River – Sixteen Men Drowned Like Rats. 1890, Jan 10.  Dixon Evening Telegraph.
  2. Branham, William. 1965, August 1.  “God of this Evil Age.”
  3. Branham, William. 1960, August 5.  “Lamb and Dove.”
  4. Branham, William. 1951, September 29.  “Our Hope is in God.”
  5. Branham, William. 1963, March 18.  “The First Seal.”
  6. Branham, William. 1953, June 1.  “Whatever He Says To You, Do It.
  7. Branham, William. 1951, July 19.  “Who Hath Believed Our Report?”
  8. Branham, William. 1959, October 4.  “Who Is This.”
  9. Brown, Ellrodt. 2012, May 9.  Insight: German sect victims seek escape from Chilean nightmare past.    Accessed from http://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-chile-sect-idUSBRE8480MN20120509
  10. Collins, J. (2016, October 7). Colonia Dignidad and Jonestown. Retrieved from http://jonestown.sdsu.edu/?page_id=67352.
  11. Collins, J. & Hassan, S. (2016, October 7).  Mind Control and Jonestown. Retrieved from http://jonestown.sdsu.edu/?page_id=67372.
  12. Davis Indicted by Grand Jury. 1930, Oct 14, Courier Journal.
  13. Deep Study: Roy E. Davis, Imperial Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan and the Kennedy Assassination. 2016, October 10.  Accessed from http://seekyethetruth.com/resources-deep-davis.aspx
  14. Deep Study: The Branham Tabernacle. 2016, October 10.  Accessed from http://seekyethetruth.com/resources-deep-branham_tabernacle.aspx
  15. Deep Study: William D. Upshaw and the Imperial Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan. 2016, October 10.  Accessed from http://seekyethetruth.com/resources-deep-upshaw.aspx
  16. First Pentecostal Baptist – Dr. Roy E. Davis Pastor. 1933, February 18.  Evening News.
  17. Group Information: The Message. (2016, October 15).  Accessed from https://freedomofmind.com/Info/infoDet.php?id=883&title=The_Message
  18. Klan Refused Hall. 1923, Jan 12.  Reading Times.
  19. Ku Klux Klan Active in Shreveport, Area. 1961, February 10.  The Times (Shreveport).
  20. People v. Loker. (2008, July 7).  44 CAL. 4TH 691, 188 P.3D 580, 80 CAL. RPTR. 3D 630
  21. Posts on the Municipal Bridge Vision. 2016, October 10.  Accessed from http://searchingforvindication.com/bridge.html
  22. Reiterman, Tim and John Jacobs, Raven: The Untold Story of Jim Jones and His People, (USA: Dutton Adult, 1982, 622 pages).
  23. Steven Hassan’s BITE Model of Cult Mind Control. (2016, October 15).  Accessed from https://www.freedomofmind.com/Info/BITE/bitemodel.php
  24. The Basics: The Prophecies of 1933. 2016, October 10.  Accessed from http://seekyethetruth.com/resources-basics-1933prophecies.aspx
  25. The Easy Questions: Driverless Eggcar. 2016, October 10.  Accessed from http://seekyethetruth.com/resources-easy-eggcar.aspx.
  26. The Intersection of Branham and Jim Jones. (2016, October 15).  Accessed from http://jonestown.sdsu.edu/?page_id=65112
  27. The Three Signs of Moses. 2006, November 10.  Accessed from https://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/the-three-signs-of-moses
  28. Branham’s First Pastor. 1950, October.  Voice of Healing.  Accessed from http://en.believethesign.com/index.php/File:VofHealingOct50pg14.jpg
  29. Writ Is Issued for Evangelist. 1931, Sept 9.  Courier Journal

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Author & Webmaster, Seek The Truth

[2] Individual Publication Date: November 1, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Photograph courtesy of John Collins.

[4] Branham, William.  1965, August 1.  “God of this Evil Age.”

[5] Branham, William.  1951, July 19.  “Who Hath Believed Our Report?”

[6] Branham, William.  1953, June 1.  “Whatever He Says To You, Do It.

[7] The Basics: The Prophecies of 1933.  2016, October 10.  Accessed from http://seekyethetruth.com/resources-basics-1933prophecies.aspx

[8] The Easy Questions: Driverless Eggcar.  2016, October 10.  Accessed from http://seekyethetruth.com/resources-easy-eggcar.aspx.

[9] Posts on the Municipal Bridge Vision.  2016, October 10.  Accessed from http://searchingforvindication.com/bridge.html

[10] A Dreadful Fate – Terrible Caisson Disaster on the Ohio River – Sixteen Men Drowned Like Rats.  1890, Jan 10.  Dixon Evening Telegraph.

[11] Wm. Branham’s First Pastor.  1950, October.  Voice of Healing.  Accessed from http://en.believethesign.com/index.php/File:VofHealingOct50pg14.jpg

[12] Davis Indicted by Grand Jury.  1930, Oct 14, Courier Journal.

[13] Writ Is Issued for Evangelist.  1931, Sept 9.  Courier Journal

[14] Klan Refused Hall.  1923, Jan 12.  Reading Times.

[15] Ku Klux Klan Active in Shreveport, Area.  1961, February 10.  The Times (Shreveport).

[16] First Pentecostal Baptist – Dr. Roy E. Davis Pastor.  1933, February 18.  Evening News.

[17] Deep Study: The Branham Tabernacle.  2016, October 10.  Accessed from http://seekyethetruth.com/resources-deep-branham_tabernacle.aspx

[18] Deep Study: Roy E. Davis, Imperial Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan and the Kennedy Assassination.  2016, October 10.  Accessed from http://seekyethetruth.com/resources-deep-davis.aspx

[19] Deep Study: William D. Upshaw and the Imperial Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan.  2016, October 10.  Accessed from http://seekyethetruth.com/resources-deep-upshaw.aspx

[20] Branham, William.  1951, September 29.  “Our Hope is in God.”

[21] Branham, William.  1960, August 5.  “Lamb and Dove.”

[22] The Three Signs of Moses.  2006, November 10.  Accessed from https://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/the-three-signs-of-moses

[23] Branham, William.  1959, October 4.  “Who Is This.”

[24] Branham, William.  1963, March 18.  “The First Seal.”

[25] Reiterman, Tim and John Jacobs, Raven: The Untold Story of Jim Jones and His People, (USA: Dutton Adult, 1982, 622 pages).

[26] The Intersection of Branham and Jim Jones.  (2016, October 15).  Accessed from http://jonestown.sdsu.edu/?page_id=65112

[27] Steven Hassan’s BITE Model of Cult Mind Control.  (2016, October 15).  Accessed from https://www.freedomofmind.com/Info/BITE/bitemodel.php

[28] Group Information: The Message.  (2016, October 15).  Accessed from https://freedomofmind.com/Info/infoDet.php?id=883&title=The_Message

[29] People v. Loker.  (2008, July 7).  44 CAL. 4TH 691, 188 P.3D 580, 80 CAL. RPTR. 3D 630

[30] Brown, Ellrodt.  2012, May 9.  Insight: German sect victims seek escape from Chilean nightmare past.  Reuters.  Accessed from http://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-chile-sect-idUSBRE8480MN20120509

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with John Collins [Online].November 2016; 12(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-collins.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, November 1). An Interview with John Collins. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-collins.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with John Collins. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A, November. 2016. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-collins>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An Interview with John Collins.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-collins.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with John Collins.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A (November 2016). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-collins.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with John Collins‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 12.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-collins>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with John Collins‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 12.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-collins.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with John Collins.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 12.A (2016):November. 2016. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-collins>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with John Collins [Internet]. (2016, November; 12(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-collins.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2016-10-22

An Interview with John Shirley (Part Four)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 12.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Eight)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: October 22, 2016

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,346

ISSN 2369-6885

John Shirley.jpg

Abstract

An Interview with John Shirley. He discusses: possible political, philosophical, and ethical functions of science fiction; general philosophy; ethical philosophy; political philosophy; social philosophy; economic philosophy; marks of good writing about the future; marks of bad writing; science fiction writers predicting the world of now; science fiction and the near future; science fiction wrong about the future; tiresome tropes in science fiction; apocalypses overdone; dealing or failing to deal with climate change; large oncoming turning points in future history; colonization of nearby stars or restricting to the Sun and the Solar System; good techniques to learn to imagine the future; near and far future individuals differing from us; America’s prospects to being the dominant nation in the 21st century; the 22nd century; India and China becoming the new world powers; personal heroes; upcoming collaborative projects; upcoming solo projects; recommended authors; and suggested resources.

Keywords: author, fiction, John Shirley, science, science fiction, writer.

 An Interview with John Shirley: Science Fiction Author and Writer (Part Four)[1],[2],[3]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & bibliography & citation style listing after the interview.*

37. What (if any) political, philosophical, and ethical functions can or should be served by science fiction?

Science fiction at its best is a mirror, it shows us ourselves as we are, projected into futurological settings so we can see ourselves objectively. Self-observation, critical self-knowledge, is of enormous value. It also projects the present, extrapolates, so that provides a model for possible failures. The novel 1984 helped us avoid —to some extent—Big Brother, in this nation. Envisioning nuclear wastelands in fiction helped motivate us to control nuclear weapon proliferation to an extent. (Humanity needs to get rid of them, of course). We can test out alternate societies in fiction—how would an anarchist society work? What would be the downside and the upside, what would be the social cost of it? And so on.

38. What general philosophy seems the most correct to you?

Scientific methodological thinking moderated by secular humanism, and respect for higher consciousness.

39. What ethical philosophy seems the most correct to you?

A careful cultivation and maintenance of empathy while still maintaining a capability for lethal self defense.

40. What political philosophy seems the most correct to you?

Democracy but with a strong federal (or global centrality) entity overseeing things so as to impose fair rule of law, and infused with respect for human rights and the environment.

41. What social philosophy seems the most correct to you?

A synthesis of socialism and the marketplace; social safety nets that are more extensive than now, but limited so people always have room for motivation. Freedom of sexual relations between consenting adults; legalization of possession of narcotics if they’re not being sold by the possessor illegally; treating drug addiction with rehabilitation; access to medicine for all including mental health care.

42. What economic philosophy seems the most correct to you?

Economic stimulus from the center of society; numerous people employed with good benefits and good wages to maintain infrastructure. A reasonably high minimum wage. Rejection of libertarianism.

43. What seem like the marks of good writing about the future?

People writing from a grounding in many forms of literature, a good grounding in the English language, and not too much reliance on movies and television and animation and comics for genre inspiration. Those things are fine, but instead, use objective observation of the world to make your projections; instead of just coming up with new variants of old stories, find new ideas. Understand the social implications of the sf world being created, not just tech. Appreciate characterization.

44. What seem like the marks of bad writing?

Cliche, bad dialogue, reliance on movies and so on for inspiration, lack of grounding in good books of all kinds, laziness, self indulgence, vain overwriting; confusing underwriting.

45. Did any of the writers from the golden age of science fiction come close to predicting the world of now?

HG Wells famously predicted a number of things. You can look that up. I guess he was proto-golden age. The Marching Morons by Pohl and Kornbluth predicted many aspects of our world now. Cordwainer Smith predicted much techno interfacing.

46. What can science fiction tell us about the near future?

That people writing research papers will run out of ideas for questions and repeat their questions. But, see The Sheep Look Up by John Brunner; his predictions of the social consequences of toxifying our food and environment.

47. What does science fiction tend to get wrong about the future?

It fails to look at the dark side of technology and the dark side of sheer growth in civilization.

48. What tropes are you tired of seeing in science fiction?

I rarely read it anymore; I read science magazines instead; I read history a great deal. But I dislike science fiction that assumes libertarian ideals are fruitful in a positive way; that the marketplace alone is helpful. This has been cropping up. A society without regulation is a society ruled by corporate overlords.

49. Which apocalypses have been overdone?

Obviously the zombie apocalypse. The Mad Max assumption—although I like the Mad Max movies—of endless wasteland. BIG wasteland expansion for a while is likely; endless, not likely.

50. How have we dealt with (or failed to deal with) climate change?

We’ve mostly failed, though some inroads have been made. The recent international conference was at least a good start; the Chinese seem to be recognizing that it’s real and they’re a big part of the problem. We’ve failed to control egregious pollution emissions like coal burning particulates (with it, mercury pollution in the sea), methane from various industries. Big industry— the petroleum industry’s refineries, for example—is still allowed too much air pollution.

51. What seem like some of the large oncoming turning points in future history?

The exponential expansion (not a singularity but significant) of computer technology will combine into an overarching system, based on the internet; it will be vulnerable and if it collapses there could be global chaos for awhile. I think there will be a confrontation—much more strident than now—with radical Islam and, later, with radical-right Christianity. The former may lead to a world war—probably—but not one that will employ nuclear weapons unless perhaps small tactical nukes. I think that radical Islam will be shattered by a general global prohibition, a rather draconian one I’m afraid. There will be a “reformation” or “enlightenment period” in Islam. That will make Muslim civilizations civilized. Women will be more assertive in global society and will insist on an end to patriarchal systems in the third world. There will be women’s militias enforcing this modeled on the Kurdish women’s militia groups. Our abuse of the ocean will reach a climax of negative side effects…

52. Will we colonize nearby stars or restrict ourselves to the Sun and the Solar System?

Eventually the human race will expand to the stars. Either we’ll devise new types of spacecraft drives or we’ll devise self-sustaining highly insulated spacecraft that will take colonists there over long periods of time.

53. What are some good techniques to learn how to imagine the future?

Read laymen’s science publications, and use your imagination, but also just develop observation of the world at large. Developing patterns are visible if you look. Make spreadsheets (I do it in my mind) or charts. Use computer models. Hire people like me.

54. How might future individuals differ from us – near and far future?

Near future I predict a dismaying elitism, with many elitists shrivelling into dependency on designer drugs and VR lives; “second life” in the worst way. But others will be technocrats, some power hungry, others driven by humane impulses. In the far future, humanity will probably have “primitivists” and somewhat cyborgian people, all of whom are eventually made irrelevant by mutated homo superiors, who, I hope, will retain empathy while increasing intelligence and lifespan. These mutated human variants might be the result of genetic engineering. The whole issue of eugenics will raise its frightening head again.

55. Insofar as the prospects for the 21st century, does America continue to be a dominant nation?

The evidence is, yes, because despite the resistance on the part of a minority we continue to take in immigrants, many of whom are intelligent and creative, most of whom are hardworking, and they’ll make us stronger. The USA also is very adaptable—it takes three steps forward, then one or two back, but we profit by some progress. We have actually made great progress in the area of alternative energy—not as much as we need to make but it is a successful field, and it is expanding. While the idiocracy threatens us, there are still lots of people interested in education and many, many young people interested in tolerance. If the huge stresses coming from climate disruption are not too overwhelming the USA will do well: it is a well-founded social experiment. It corrects itself. It eliminated slavery, it allowed unions, women got the vote, and so on. IF we can reign in the religious right…there is much to hope for.

56. What about the 22nd century?

Recovery from world ecological sickness—like a person very sick from cancer, recovering, walking again.

57. Do India and China become the new world powers?

India seems to drag its feet. It can’t even provide itself with reasonably clean water. (Yes, I know, Flint, Michigan, but we’re far better at that on the whole.) China will be a great power as it continues to gradually liberalize.

58. What personal heroes exist in history, in the present, and who most influenced you?

Plato, the Buddha, the actual Jesus (not the conventional Christian version), Newton, Galileo, Shakespeare, Mark Twain, Dickens, Thoreau, Emerson, Cyrano de Bergerac, Charles Darwin, Edgar Allan Poe, Baudelaire, Edna St Vincent Millay, Upton Sinclair, John Steinbeck, Will Durant, Max Ernst, Marcel Duchamp, the Futurian science fiction writers (Pohl, Asimov, Knight etc), Richard Matheson, Charles Beaumont, Ray Bradbury, Larry Niven, Alfred Bester, JG Ballard, Harlan Ellison, Frank Herbert, Jack Vance, Jacob Needleman, Krishnamurti, Ramakrishna, GI Gurdjieff, Mick Jagger, Iggy Pop, Lou Reed, Tom Verlaine, Bruce Sterling, Rudy Rucker, Patrick O’Brian, David Bowie, Anne Sexton…I could go on…but I won’t…

59. Any upcoming collaborative projects?

Only in music. New songs with Blue Oyster Cult, new songs of my own with musical partners.

60. Any upcoming solo projects?

The novel Stormland, about a part of the USA in the future that has hurricane level storms 360 days a year, year after year, and the people who somehow are still there…and why they’re there.

61. Any recommended authors?

All the ones I mentioned earlier.

62. For those with an interest in further personal research into you, they can look at the approved personal and professional website: john-shirley.com.[4] Any other suggested resources for related individuals, publications, and general subject matter?

There is also a facebook fan page.

Thank you for your time, Mr. Shirley.

 Bibliography

  1. [Philo Drummond]. (2012, April 23). Sado-Nation with John Shirley. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6D474FA093259CCF.
  2. [TEDx Talks]. (2011, November 23). TEDxBrussels – John Shirley – False Singularities. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtpX_9E__hU.
  3. Dueben, A. (2012, August 6). John Shirley: The Crow: Death and Rebirth. Retrieved from https://suicidegirls.com/girls/sash/blog/2680449/john-shirley-the-crow-death-and-rebirth/.
  4. Fahey, T.B. (2014, September 2). Piper at the Gates of Hell: An Interview with Cyberpunk Legend John Shirley. Retrieved from http://motherboard.vice.com/read/piper-at-the-gates-of-hell-an-interview-with-cyberpunk-legend-john-shirley.
  5. Jacobsen, S.D. (2014, October 1). Reverend Ivan Stang: Co-Founder & Author, Church of the SubGenius. Retrieved fromhttp://in-sightjournal.com/2014/10/01/reverend-ivan-stang-co-founder-author-church-of-the-subgenius/.
  6. Laurence, A. (1994). An Interview with John Shirley. Retrieved from http://www.altx.com/int2/john.shirley.html.
  7. Reverbnation (n.d.). John Shirley. Retrieved from https://www.reverbnation.com/johnshirley.
  8. Shirley, J. (2014, August 26). A science fiction author ponders the dystopic landscape of the sovereign citizen mind. Retrieved from http://www.rawstory.com/2014/08/john-shirley-on-sovereign-citizens-draft/.
  9. Shirley, J. (2016). Dark Echo. Retrieved from http://www.darkecho.com/.
  10. Shirley, J. (2012, May 11). Tales to Terrify no 18 John Shirley. Retrieved from http://talestoterrify.com/tales-to-terrify-no-18-john-shirley/.
  11. Ventrella, M.A. (2012, June 7). Interview with Bram Stoker Award-winning author John Shirley. Retrieved from http://michaelaventrella.com/2012/06/07/interview-with-bram-stoker-award-winning-author-john-shirley/.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Science Fiction Author and Writer.

[2] Individual Publication Date: October 22, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Photograph courtesy of John Shirley.

[4] Shirley, J. (2016). John Shirley. Retrieved from http://www.john-shirley.com.

Shirley, J. (2016). Contact Information for John Shirley. Retrieved from http://www.darkecho.com/JohnShirley/contact.html.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with John Shirley (Part Four) [Online].October 2016; 12(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-shirley-part-four.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, October 22). An Interview with John Shirley (Part Four). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-shirley-part-four.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with John Shirley (Part Four). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A, October. 2016. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-shirley-part-four>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An Interview with John Shirley (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-shirley-part-four.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with John Shirley (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A (October 2016). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-shirley-part-four.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with John Shirley (Part Four)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 12.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-shirley-part-four>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with John Shirley (Part Four)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 12.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-shirley-part-four.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with John Shirley (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 12.A (2016):October. 2016. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-shirley-part-four>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with John Shirley (Part Four) [Internet]. (2016, October; 12(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-shirley-part-four.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2016-10-15

An Interview with John Shirley (Part Three)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 12.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Eight)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: October 15, 2016

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,858

ISSN 2369-6885

John Shirley.jpg

Abstract

An Interview with John Shirley. He discusses: definition of a cult and a religion; definition of mystical, religious, or spiritual sensibilities and experiences; the perspective of the cyberpunk genre on religion; philosophical assumptions with tacit assertion in discourse around artificial intelligence having consciousness; differentiation of human thinking from current AI; the most accurate depiction of the possible future of AI by science fiction; the good news for comprehension of consciousness and the construction of artificial consciousness (maybe); the bad news; the potential for superintelligence and if this will show human consciousness to be threadbare and sloppy; social and legal structure accommodations for non-human beings as smart or smarter than humans; possibility of humans merging with AI; possibility of other civilizations in our galaxy; the possible constructs produced by these civilizations; possible ways societies will fracture in the future; and the possibility of enflamed political controversies over AI as heated as the current political scene in America.

Keywords: author, fiction, John Shirley, science, science fiction, writer.

An Interview with John Shirley: Science Fiction Author and Writer (Part Three)[1],[2],[3]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & bibliography & citation style listing after the interview.*

22. In the process of research, something came to the fore for me – from the performances published online by “[Phil Drummond]” or Phil Drummond.[4] In that, Philo Drummond had association with one previous interviewee, Reverend Ivan Stang, Rev. Ivan Stang, or Ivan Stang, from the Church of the SubGenius.[5] Reverend Ivan Stang, with respect to the Church of the Subgenius, said:

I suppose the biggest difference is that we admit we are bullshitting you. In that respect it is a remarkably honest religion. Also, we don’t define Slack; it’s different for each person, so there are no absolute values — except maybe for the tricky part about not robbing others of their Slack. Most religions become ever more specific about “right” and “wrong” and are essentially formulas. We do not provide any stable formula; in fact we illustrate that trying to fit human behavior into codified formulas is folly.[6]

What defines a cult and a religion to you?

I have enjoyed my own connection to the satirical Church of the Subgenius—I have written for them, have been at some of their events, and I’m friends with “Philo” and “Stang” (not their real names). It’s a comedic construction, and a kind of art project, but it also makes its points about the absurdity of religion and kneejerk belief.

A cult, as Jacob Needleman said, is something easy to get into but difficult to leave. A religion, to me, is usually a large organized institutional device for consolation and comforting. As the Bible said, “by their fruits you will know them”. If the religion produces misery, it’s a miserable religion. If it’s kindly and not oppressive, I see no harm in it, and some religions may even provide kernels of truth hidden away within them. On the whole it’s probably time that we grew out of the need for them, but I don’t judge people for wanting comfort. “Anything that gets you through the night”.

23. What defines mystical, religious, or spiritual sensibilities and experiences to you?

Too large a subject to get far into here.

My personal belief is that the majority of “mystical” experiences are purely neurological in origin, are variants of the dreamstate, and may or may not encode useful information. However, some seekers after higher perception have had real insights, demonstrating that our consciousnesses are linked to a sort of sea of consciousness woven invisibly (mostly invisibly) within the cosmos.

Spirituality may be as simple as the Dalai Lama’s “my religion is kindness” and I cannot fault that. I believe there are methods (beyond the use of drugs) for enhancing consciousness as a thing in itself. As with William James and GI Gurdjieff and some others it seems evident to me there are levels of consciousness. But it’s easy to get lost in the search and many people wander into a sort of wilderness of blurred misperception. Something rigorous, like the original form of Zen Buddhism, or Krishnamurti’s methods for increasing awareness, are needed to keep from getting lost. I do not believe there is anything supernatural; there is only the unknown natural.

24. What seems like the general perspective of the cyberpunk genre on religion in general- theological arguments, religious texts, socio-cultural activities, influence on politics, economic formulations, prayer, and so on?

Cyberpunk writers have always stuck with characters who are “oil” to the water of religion.

They don’t mix. Heroes and antiheroes of such tales are tough individuals with their own codes and are rightly skeptical of superimposed “religious” systems; these characters operate rather spontaneously except for, perhaps, some general recourse to secular humanism.

25. What philosophical assumptions appear to have tacit assertion in conversation, discussions, media representations, and publications in the possibility for artificial intelligence (AI) having consciousness?

I don’t believe it’s anything philosophical; I think it’s lack of self knowledge. But I suppose a heightened belief in materiality and reductionism is involved. They believe that consciousness can be reduced to mere programming. Whereas it’s something ineluctably holographic; a holography beyond our technology.

26. What differentiates human thinking from current AI?

I don’t think there is current AI. There are “expert systems” that react as-if; there may be highly developed quantum computers in the works but they’re not at the AI level yet. It’s still a dream. We will develop AIs but they’re just like an unspeakably complex abacus with a voice; the illusion that there’s an independent mind in an AI is something we superimpose on them. It’s like pareidolia. Kurtzweil, et al, are superimposing their daydreams on AIs, they’re seeing “faces on Mars” in the random. Human thinkng—well sometimes it’s the same as an AI at a certain level. An AI could —some programs have—compose agreeable music according to certain principles, or think through things as we would. But there is a whole that is more than the sum of the parts that is in human consciousness, and there is a connection to instinctual wiring that AIs will lack (when there is actual AI).

27. What science fiction genre and stories portray possible future AI in an accurate way?

I haven’t kept up, I read mostly nonfiction, but I think the depictions in Iain Banks’s sf novels are very convincing.

28. With the possible advent of the comprehension of consciousness, and the consequent means for the construction of artificial consciousness (maybe), what good news will this have for thinking beings such as ourselves?

Consciousness has been comprehended by certain schools of thought, so to speak, for some thousands of years. It has to be tasted; it’s felt like water on the hand; it’s like a scent. It is an experience.

Artificial *intelligence* (as opposed to consciousness) will help us solve problems. New diseases will have new solutions—we’ll have AIs that analyze new genetic and bacteriological and virological and environmental diseases and offer solutions, rapidly too. AIs will help us navigate interstellar space. AIs may (or may not) be added by interface to the problem-solving, analytical part of our own brains, so that genius becomes commonplace.

I’m a great believer in self-driving cars; something like AIs will make trains, planes and automobiles safer.

29. Any bad news for us?

The misuse of AIs can be assumed; human beings are amazingly good at finding ways to misuse tools. Nuclear and biological weapons are a misuse of human laboratory tools. We use computers to help us operate weapons even now (not that we don’t need weapons but they’re often misused). Smart handguns that lock onto targets are in development. Bigger variants are in use in fighter jets. Extrapolate that to AIs…AIs will be used for espionage and sedition and terrorism: by AIs here I mean high-functioning artificial analytical devices.

30. Will superintelligence emerge, and, if so, will this show human intelligence and consciousness as threadbare and sloppy?

I already regard us all as threadbare and sloppy. But yes, re AI intelligence, up to a point. But it will not be independent. If human beings don’t misuse it, it will be a great boon. Be a shame if we were too dependent on it.

31. How will social and legal structures accommodate non-human beings that are as smart as or smarter than humans?

I don’t believe it will happen that way. I don’t think they will ever be recognized as beings; they will have no independence. We should not create the illusion of it.

32. Will humans merge with AI?

Do we merge with our cars? In a way yes, in a way no. Is a man merged with a pacemaker in his heart? They will be, at best, extensions of us, really; they will be a kind of prosthetic to help us exceed our limitations. Some humans already, admittedly, over-identify with their computers, their phones (a most repugnant sight, the over-involvement with smartphones), so many will over-identify with their AI enhanced prosthetics. They may become near psychotic or psychopathic in the process, if they go too far. They may find it seemingly useful to take an emotion-suppressing drug which will—amongst other things—suppress empathy. I do predict empathy-suppressing drugs in my story “Weedkiller” that appear in the British magazine Interzone last year.

33. Do you think there are other civilizations in our galaxy?

There are certainly others in the universe, solipsistic to think there aren’t. Probably there are some in the galaxy. We will probably find them in time, at least from a distance; I hope they don’t find us until we’re ready. I have seen no evidence that extraterrestrials have visited this planet.

34. What constructs might these civilizations produce for themselves?

I do think the Dyson sphere is possible, or Larry Niven’s Ringworld. Some think that wormholes can be artificially constructed, or anyway controllably induced… I think there must be space colonies that exist purely in space, well insulated (perhaps by electromagnetic fields) from interplanetary radiation, self sustaining, perhaps mining local planetoids and converting their matter into biological sustenance through a form of 3D printing… I described a variant of the L5 colony humanity may well construct, between Earth and the Moon, in A Song Called Youth.

35. How might societies fracture in the future?

A thousand ways. Competition for resources between competing societies could lead to shortages within discrete competitive societies, which of course leads to social unrest. Religions can be fabricated (they have been in the past, out of whole cloth, see Mormonism and Scientology) which could be *designed* for maximum mind control, as a social exploitation and social command device. Obviously religions have done something like that in the past—look at the Middle Ages—but a computer model set up for social and psychological acumen could design an almost irresistible mind control religion which would then oppress and you’d get the reaction to the oppression. Or suppose a society uses pharmacology, like Soma in Huxley, to control people and then its manufacturing base for it collapses—billions of people in withdrawal could be catastrophic.

But, more likely, the cycle of an elite controlling wealth leading to a widening gap between rich and poor is the most recurrent “rust” or cracking of the machinery of society.

36. Will future political controversies over AI become as heated as the current enflamed political scene in The United States of America?

I don’t see why they should since AIs are mere tools. Access to them will be a point of conflict though.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Science Fiction Author and Writer.

[2] Individual Publication Date: October 15, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Photograph courtesy of John Shirley.

[4] [Philo Drummond]. (2012, April 23). Sado-Nation with John Shirley. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6D474FA093259CCF.

[5] Jacobsen, S.D. (2014, October 1). Reverend Ivan Stang: Co-Founder & Author, Church of the SubGenius. Retrieved from http://in-sightjournal.com/2014/10/01/reverend-ivan-stang-co-founder-author-church-of-the-subgenius/.

[6] The discussion in Reverend Ivan Stang: Co-Founder & Author, Church of the SubGenius (2014), in more detail, went as follows:

1. As you have stated many times in public forums, and maybe private ones too, for those unaware of J.R. ‘Bob’ Dobbs, i.e. ‘the unsaved’, what three things do they need to know?

If they don’t instantly see what’s funny about it, they should probably avoid it. 2. If they can’t read between the lines, they should probably stop reading. 3. If they often confuse Mad Magazine, or Saturday Night Live, with the news, they should RUN FOR DEAR LIFE.

Beyond that, the key points are “Bob,” Slack, and The Conspiracy.

2. Regarding ‘Bob’, ‘The Conspiracy’, and ‘Slack’, how do you define each term? Why did these become a foundation within the creation of the Church of the SubGenius?

Slack = the goal, what we all want (although it’s different or each person). The Conspiracy (of the Normals) = what hinders Slack. “Bob” = the magic formula which facilitates Slack. But a major aspect of “Bob” Dobbs is the graphic portrait of “Bob.” That single image, inexplicable as it is, somehow ties all of it together. The moment that Philo showed me his book of clip art and we both simultaneously saw that damn halftone face was when we both knew we had something. We still do not know what.

3. How does the Church of the SubGenius differ from most mainstream religions, e.g. Christianity (Roman Catholicism, Protestantism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, and Anglicanism), Islam (Shia, Sunni, Sufi, and Kharijite), Hinduism, Chinese Traditional Religions, Buddhism, various Ethnic Religions, African Traditional religions, Sikhism, and so on? 

I suppose the biggest difference is that we admit we are bullshitting you. In that respect it is a remarkably honest religion. Also, we don’t define Slack; it’s different for each person, so there are no absolute values — except maybe for the tricky part about not robbing others of their Slack. Most religions become ever more specific about “right” and “wrong” and are essentially formulas. We do not provide any stable formula; in fact we illustrate that trying to fit human behavior into codified formulas is folly.

Also, we pay taxes.

One of my favorite lines is, “We’re like any other religion. It’s not that we love “Bob” all that much, it’s that we love the idea of everybody else going to Hell.”

I hope it goes without saying that most SubGeniuses don’t even believe in “Bob,” much less Hell…

8. Furthermore, how does it differ from other fringe religions, e.g. Christianity (Restorianism, Chinese Originated Churches, Church of the East, and Unitarian Universalism), Juche, Spiritism, Judaism, Bahá’í, Jainism, Shinto, Cao Dai, Zoroastrianism, Tenrikyo, Neo-Paganism, Rastafarianism, Scientology, Pastafarianism, Mormonism, Arceusology, Discordianism, Paganism, Crowleyites, and so on?

We’re much, much funnier than any of them, even Scientology.

9. What do you consider the most controversial part of your church compared to the mainline religions? In addition, what do you consider the most controversial compared to the other fringe religions? How do you examine the issue?

Some people become sincerely upset that we portray the God of the Bible as a monster from outer space. No punishments are threatened for sins like gluttony, adultery, addiction, etc. I guess the main point of contention is that we are making cruel fun of literally everybody’s most cherished beliefs, often simply because they are cherished. We are the Balloon Poppers, the Antidote to All Placebos.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with John Shirley (Part Three) [Online].October 2016; 12(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-shirley-part-three.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, October 15). An Interview with John Shirley (Part Three). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-shirley-part-three.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with John Shirley (Part Three). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A, October. 2016. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-shirley-part-three>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An Interview with John Shirley (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-shirley-part-three.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with John Shirley (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A (October 2016). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-shirley-part-three.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with John Shirley (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 12.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-shirley-part-three>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with John Shirley (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 12.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-shirley-part-three.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with John Shirley (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 12.A (2016):October. 2016. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-shirley-part-three>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with John Shirley (Part Three) [Internet]. (2016, October; 12(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-shirley-part-three.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2016-10-08

An Interview with John Shirley (Part Two)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 12.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Eight)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: October 8, 2016

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,345

ISSN 2369-6885

John Shirley.jpg

Abstract

An Interview with John Shirley. He discusses: the origination and development of the cyberpunk movement; responsibilities (if any) to the public and the writing community with exposure; the greatest changes in the technological landscape; greatest changes in the economic and socio-political environment; greatest changes in the academic and intellectual milieu; most probable near future five years on from John Shirley – False Singularities; most probable future; the probability of the Singularity; and immortality as argued by Ray Kurzweil.

Keywords: author, fiction, John Shirley, science, science fiction, writer.

An Interview with John Shirley: Science Fiction Author and Writer (Part Two)[1],[2],[3]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & bibliography & citation style listing after the interview.*

13. How did the cyberpunk movement originate and development into the present?

Bruce Sterling organized us, more than any other person, partly through letters, actual physical paper letters at the time, and through his “zine” or newsletter perhaps, Cheap Truth. “Us” then being Lew Shiner, Rudy Rucker, William Gibson, Sterling, me…A little later there was Richard Kadrey and Pat Cadigan…It was a kind of salon of angry ambitious envelope-pushing, rock-inflected, William Burroughs/JG Ballard/Michael Moorcock reading writers—writers also aware of dadaism and surrealism and mail art and pop art and the Velvet Underground and industrial music and noir film makers of all kinds—and we saw an emerging cultural setting that other people weren’t looking at so closely. Of course, there were precedents—Samuel Delany, Cordwainer Smith, Alfred Bester, PKD.

14. You have representation in numerous publications.[4] What responsibilities (if any) to the public and the writing community come from this exposure?

I do feel responsibility; it’s in my nature. I try to be of help. I feel like I haven’t been of enough help to the world. I feel too often like a man driving away from an injured person on the road. I’d never do that, but on a daily basis in a way we all do that. I look for ways to try to bring something useful to my interaction with the public. Maybe I’m kidding myself but I try.

15. You were born February 10, 1953. In the last 63 years, what seem like the greatest changes in the technological landscape to you?

The obvious ones—PCs, wi-fi, cell phones, the internet. A revolution that is both beneficial, socially valuable—and deleterious, at once. These media can weaken our capability of relating more directly to one another, they can weaken our attention spans for uninterrupted reading and work. The internet is a venue for misinformation and disinformation as much as enlightening data. But at the same time it’s all an opportunity; it made it possible for people to organize support of America’s first black president. It shows contrasting cultures to people in medieval-style backward societies. It’s a great research tool, is the internet, I use it constantly. It provides instantaneous data exchange for scientists, accelerating the scientific revolution. I support the sciences, always.

The bio-engineering revolution may have a great impact we’re barely aware of so far…I do believe we’ll be growing and printing replacement organs that fit our bodies perfectly. 3D printing of a host of things could be a great revolution if it’s reasonably competitive in the marketplace. Obviously the risks of biotech—homegrown biowarfare, or attempts at self-improvement that are simply grotesque and ultimately fatal—are to be closely monitored.

16. What about the economic and socio-political environment?

A Song Called Youth deals with that; so does Demons, really, from another direction. I’m kind of a soft socialist, the Bernie Sanders sort. People who think in “all or nothing” terms with respect to economic systems are childish and tunnel-visioned. “It must be the uncontrolled free market” is a recipe for disaster. We tried that with the Robber Barons and the Great Depression and the Great Recession and the mindless sprawl of industry that all but wrecked the biosphere; that leads to climate change. Economics is connected to biology, on several levels. On the other hand, “we must have a 100% communal society” is just as wrongheaded. A synthesis is all that will work—until we have some kind of gigantic species-wide epiphany, which may never happen. We have to manage 7 billion people now and 9 billion, eventually. This will take an understanding of general trends and an appreciation of complexity both.

I believe that, politically, another kind of childishness is resisting globalization in the best sense of the term. We can be a united planet without being crushed by a few corporations, without losing local identity and most local sovereignty. But I also believe we must impose some human rights through a democratic world government. The emergency that is climate change and its consequences, the necessity of trying to avoid catastrophic global-scale warfare as climate change constricts food and habitable space and damages the sea, may well bring about some form of world government. This government will require a uniform set of basic human rights. Tolerance is important—but there are limits. We should require equality for women, and end to enforced marriages, acceptance of any sexual orientation between consenting adults, an end to torture and political imprisonment; an end to caste systems, an end to racial bias, an end to slavery; we should globally establish freedom of speech, freedom of religion or atheism, availability of basic health access, access to clean water and baseline food, access to education. Religion can be tolerated within certain boundaries; i.e., it cannot superimpose its superstitions onto secular education. People can choose religion and choose its form of education but it cannot deny people the agreed-on standard for education if they choose it…All this will eventually lead to less waste of resources, less expenditure, because violations of these principles has its own costs.

17. What about the academic and intellectual milieu?

There’s always a tendency to elitism, but making basic education and computer interfacing more accessible will break that down. Academics and art should be to some large extent government subsidized. We should be providing free university education in the USA. We do need reasonable standards—people should not be getting financial support to pursue silly little backwaters like “the art of fingerpainting” or astrology or quackery like homeopathy. But public broadcasting stations should be supported by taxes; museums should be subsidized so that people can go to them freely…Talented artists should be located and subsidized to a far, far wider extent than now…

18. You spoke at TEDxBrussels in a talk entitled John Shirley – False Singularities.[5] The talk critiques the common representations in the media, with an increase in frequency over three decades – at least, of the Singularitarians or the Trans-Humanists with the conceptual headship of Ray Kurzweil. Other individuals, too, such as Terry Grossman, M.D., Dr. Aubrey de Grey, Dr. Peter Diamandis, M.D., Saul Kent of the Life Extension Foundation, and others. Based on the responses about the technological landscape,the economic and socio-political environment, the academic and intellectual milieu, and the TEDxBrussels presentation, what seems like the most probable near future five years on from John Shirley – False Singularities?

A mere five years? Much can happen in five years—sometimes a rush of events pile up in a short period—but I think more in terms of twenty to fifty years. Billions of people—two billion perhaps?—may be displaced by rising oceans, desertification, and diminution of arable land. Rising seas may well inundate many large cities along the coasts; New York may have to become like the Netherlands, or perhaps like Venice. Manufacturing will tend to congregate more and more in places chosen by computer model to be safe from demographic displacement, and this will create a guarded, semi-sequestered technocratic elite in those areas; there maybe be a danger of a sort of informal (or even formal?) techno-priesthood, a social bottleneck in access to computer tech and access. Money will probably become entirely electronic. There will indeed be a certain percentage of the population with wi-fi “internet of things” cerebral computer chip implantation. The gap between the rich and the poor could widen to a nightmarish vastness. Addiction to VR states will be a norm for some people…

But five years? Just more flooding of technological interfacing, and virtual communion, which will be helpful in some ways but could lead to widespread depression since it removes ordinary face to face contact…Medications will become more and more dangerously precise in their application so that people will be in ever greater risk of dependency. Terrorism certainly won’t go away and we’ll see a rise of terrorism on the right, domestic terrorism stoked (mostly unconsciously) by the Trumps, the Glenn Becks, the Alex Joneses of the world, and by Dominionist pseudo-Christian extremists.

There may be weather cells of low oxygen, sort of like a meteorological version of the ocean’s “dead zones”, so that people have to flee the sudden lack of oxygen in those areas. That’s highly speculative but I think it’s possible, as a consequence of our destruction, through acidification of the seas, of oceanic organisms that provide much of our oxygen, combined with the destruction of rain forests.

19. What about the most probable far future?

What’s your idea of “far”? A thousand years? Five thousand? I see a shattering reduction of the human race, it will be winnowed down, to one-fifth what we’re seeing now, in the far future. High-rise farming will be the norm, with enormous tracts of green areas between; a culture that polarizes between decadence and technocratic expansion will take us into space. I believe there will be a faster-than-light work-around for spacecraft. I do not believe the human race will destroy itself entirely; I think it’ll learn from its mistakes, and will expand into the cosmos. That’s in the far future…To get ourselves there I think humanity will have to rebuild some of Earth’s biosphere and allow the evolution of new areas of wildlife habitat biocomplexity so we have a world we can thrive in…

20. What seems like the probability of the Singularity?

More and more computer efficiency will lead to more and more dependency; some groups will control the means of satisfying that dependency. I am sure we’ll have cascading advances of technology. But the kind of rather magical-thinking motions engaged in by Transhumanists, dreams of superhumanity and independently willed AIs, will be frustrated.

I do not believe that AIs will become dangerous unless we program them to be so. I see no reason they should become independent; they are not imprinted with survival instincts. Even if an artificial intelligence develops self-awareness, I don’t see that as leading to aggression or fear. It will remain emotionless. Why would we be stupid enough to program them with survival-instinct aggressiveness?

21. Does immortality as argued by Dr. Ray Kurzweil seem reasonable – even with an extended timeline – to you?

Biological life extension for those privileged to access it is inevitable; computer-created immortality is a fantasy concocted by people who cannot believe in an afterlife (and there’s no reason they should) but also cannot face death. Transferring an elaborate matrix or copy, three-dimensional or not, of personality and “memories” (I don’t think they’ll be actual memories) is no more immortality than an autobiography or making a video of oneself is. What is the self? How is a copy of what you suppose to be the self going to be the actual self?

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Science Fiction Author and Writer.

[2] Individual Publication Date: October 8, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Photograph courtesy of John Shirley.

[4]Dueben, A. (2012, August 6). John Shirley: The Crow: Death and Rebirth. Retrieved from https://suicidegirls.com/girls/sash/blog/2680449/john-shirley-the-crow-death-and-rebirth/.

Fahey, T.B. (2014, September 2). Piper at the Gates of Hell: An Interview with Cyberpunk Legend John Shirley. Retrieved from http://motherboard.vice.com/read/piper-at-the-gates-of-hell-an-interview-with-cyberpunk-legend-john-shirley.

Laurence, A. (1994). An Interview with John Shirley. Retrieved from http://www.altx.com/int2/john.shirley.html.

Shirley, J. (2014, August 26). A science fiction author ponders the dystopic landscape of the sovereign citizen mind. Retrieved from http://www.rawstory.com/2014/08/john-shirley-on-sovereign-citizens-draft/.

Shirley, J. (2012, May 11). Tales to Terrify no 18 John Shirley. Retrieved from http://talestoterrify.com/tales-to-terrify-no-18-john-shirley/.

Ventrella, M.A. (2012, June 7). Interview with Bram Stoker Award-winning author John Shirley. Retrieved from http://michaelaventrella.com/2012/06/07/interview-with-bram-stoker-award-winning-author-john-shirley/.

[5] [TEDx Talks]. (2011, November 23). TEDxBrussels – John Shirley – False Singularities. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtpX_9E__hU.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with John Shirley (Part Two) [Online].October 2016; 12(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-shirley-part-two.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, October 8). An Interview with John Shirley (Part Two). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-shirley-part-two.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with John Shirley (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A, October. 2016. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-shirley-part-two>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An Interview with John Shirley (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-shirley-part-two.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with John Shirley (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A (October 2016). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-shirley-part-two.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with John Shirley (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 12.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-shirley-part-two>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with John Shirley (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 12.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-shirley-part-two.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with John Shirley (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 12.A (2016):October. 2016. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-shirley-part-two>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with John Shirley (Part Two) [Internet]. (2016, October; 12(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-shirley-part-two.

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© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2016-10-01

An Interview with John Shirley (Part One)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 12.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Eight)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: October 1, 2016

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,506

ISSN 2369-6885

John Shirley.jpg

Abstract

An Interview with John Shirley. He discusses: geographic, cultural, and linguistic background; influences and pivotal moments in major cross-sections of early life; origination of the interest in science and fiction; origination of the interest in science fiction; a definition with some “self-definition” of Shirley; production or collection that took the most time and resources; personal sacrifices that coincide with the lifetime of professional writing; distinguishing characteristics of the cyberpunk genre; interactions with people such as Neil Gaiman, Dame Edna, Mrs. Shirley, Brandon Lee, Rosie, and others; a picture of a boy with a violin; and a statement by Bruce Sterling with comparison of Shirley to literary luminaries, and possible responsibility to the writing community with such comparisons.

Keywords: author, fiction, John Shirley, science, science fiction, writer.

An Interview with John Shirley: Science Fiction Author and Writer (Part One)[1],[2],[3]

*Footnotes in & after the interview, & citation style listing after the interview.*

1. In terms of geography, culture, and language, where does your family background reside?[4]

My parents, aunts, and uncles are largely from the Kansas City, Kansas, area and outlying areas. Some are farmers. My father was abandoned by his mother, on her second marriage, and placed in a Catholic orphanage. He had such problems with ulcers, later, they removed two-thirds of his stomach. He also seemed to have problems with depression. He died of meningitis when I was ten years old. Our family, before he died and after as well, moved around restlessly—Texas, California, Oregon—looking for a better situation. He found it in Nevada, but then he ran into meningitis.

2. How did this influence development?

I identified with no one place. All the moving about truncated my socialization. My innate, genetically provided personality seemed socially blind, in some respects, as well. I could be a leader of a group or an outcast, depending on stimuli. Except when I’m with a few very close friends, I’ve always felt best, around other people, either in the background, watching, or on a stage. Once on a stage I’m completely at home.

3. What about influences and pivotal moments in major cross-sections of early life including kindergarten, elementary school, junior high school, high school, and undergraduate studies (college/university)?

Some bullying endured; clumsy physically; alienation from sports. Classic nerd misfit stuff. Drawn to fantasy and adventure, much time spent in library searching it out. Historical adventure also drew me. In addition I was prone to extreme states of mind, picturing myself as Dracula (at a very young age) or a superhero…but I was far from heroic, shrinking, in those days, from physical confrontation. Later I learned to fight.

I think I had that particular disability—I don’t recall the term for it—that made it difficult for me to follow people talking at any length, but I absorbed written information easily. In time I noticed my shortcoming and forced myself to attend more closely so I could follow what a teacher was saying; I taught myself to be more attentive… Still, like any number of “Calvins”, as in Calvin and Hobbes, I was still drawn into the fog, or perhaps the alternate world, of my own imagination in school, caught up in elaborate fantasies…Very “Walter Mitty” but more than just that kind of thing. A common syndrome, one I never quite got over.

I found that if I told other kids “I had a dream last night and you were in it, we had an adventure” they would listen raptly, and I would make up a story. That taught me something of the art of storytelling—I eventually learned to turn this internal escapism into a moneymaking proposition as a storyteller—and I also absorbed writing from my reading, was a sponge for it. I never could remember how to parse a sentence with grammatical terms, but I could always write a good sentence. I was like a piano player who couldn’t read music, but who simply learned how to play by listening and experimenting with the keyboard. A natural “piano player”. Writing as osmosis. I can write in numerous styles I absorbed in this fashion.

4. Where did interest in science and fiction originate for you?

My older sister had a boxful of Galaxy and other magazines; I raided the box and was drawn by the colorful, symbol-charged art, the otherworldly possibilities. From there it was a short trip to find the same authors and similar ones in the library. I also watched Superman on TV—a sort of science fiction story—and read comics. As for science, I was always curious about astronomy, about the planets, about the hidden Earth beneath the outer crust, about the secret world hidden deep in the sea. So I did read nonfiction by Isaac Asimov, and other science writers for the young. It could be quite exciting; I recently got the same feeling from watching the new version of the Cosmos on television with Neil deGrasse Tyson.

5. What about interest in science fiction in particular?

The first extensive science fiction reading I did was in grade school: Tom Corbett, Space Cadet; then Heinlein’s juveniles, and other science-fictional juvenilia. I also read all the Oz books, the Mary Poppins books, Andrew Lang’s Fairy Books (e.g., The Blue Fairy Book, The Red Fairy Book, etc.), adaptations of Arthurian stories, Edgar Rice Burroughs’ Tarzan books and his interplanetary novels, like A Princess of Mars and so on. So “the fantastic” was a consistent thread through all those. I watched old movies on TV: Dracula, The Wolf Man, The Creature from the Black Lagoon, War of the Worlds… anything science fictional. I was also enamoured of Errol Flynn swashbuckler films like Captain Blood. I read a good deal of H.G. Wells, too.

6. You self-define as follows:

John Shirley is the author of numerous books and many, many short stories. His novels include Bleak History, Crawlers, Demons, In Darkness Waiting, and seminal cyberpunk works City Come A-Walkin’, and the A Song Called Youth trilogy of Eclipse, Eclipse Penumbra, and Eclipse Corona. His collections include the Bram Stoker and International Horror Guild award-winning Black Butterflies, Living Shadows: Stories: New & Pre-owned, and In Extremis: The Most Extreme Short Stories of John Shirley. He also writes for screen (The Crow) and television. As a musician. Shirley has fronted his own bands and written lyrics for Blue Öyster Cult and others.[5]

You authored a number of publications.[6] In fact, you have a productive capacity worthy of the title “prolific.” From some of the books listed including “Bleak History, Crawlers, Demons, In Darkness Waiting, and seminal cyberpunk works City Come A-Walkin’, and the A Song Called Youth trilogy of Eclipse, Eclipse Penumbra, and Eclipse Corona,” what one or two mean the most to you?

That is not how I self define. I did not even write that bio material, although it is not untrue. It *includes* some “self definition”.

The Eclipse Books — AKA the A Song Called Youth trilogy—in the revised edition, are my best works of science fiction. The books are socially prescient, the characters real, there is much rich symbolism and imagination in them. They preserve my respect for rock’n’roll energy without becoming adolescent. City Come A-Walkin’ was a unique book, a kind of magic realism novel with cyberpunk elements. Demons is a strong, well written allegory. I’ve written and published suspense thrillers too, like Spider Moon, which is one of my best books but hard to find at the moment. The ones that mean the most are the ones that I regard as most meaningful—that is, meaningful, I hope, to readers. But I always want people to read the most recent edition because I always edit the books extensively. Books I wrote when fairly young need more work, naturally. The post-edit editions are far better books.

7. You have a number of collections too:

…the Bram Stoker and International Horror Guild award-winning Black Butterflies, Living Shadows: Stories: New & Pre-owned, and In Extremis: The Most Extreme Short Stories of John Shirley. He also writes for screen (The Crow) and television.[7]

Of these individual productions and collections, what one took the most time and resources?

Collections accrete as short stories are written. The editors and publishers invest the most time and resources once the story is written. Paula Guran edited most of them. I re-edited some of them recently. I did do some considerable organization and conceptualization in the unique story collection Really Really Really Really Weird Stories, from Nightshade. The book is divided into four parts, Really Weird Stories, Really Really Weird Stories, and so on. That is my concept and I organized the stories. I also conceptualized the organization of Black Butterflies and In Extremis, picking experientially tinted stories, or stories that delved deep into my sense of horror at the reality of the human condition. I wanted to bring the underside, the hidden aspects of human experience, the demimonde, into the light. Many of the stories emanate from my time as a drug addict and my connection with people in the “sex industry” and personal traumatic experiences. So that linked them all up. Really…Weird probably took the most time.

8. What personal sacrifices comes from a lifetime of professional writing?

I have to be my own boss; I have to develop an inner boss, a supervisory adult within, to get the stories written, the books finished. I have to struggle against depression. I had to put aside a lot of my musical/performance ambitions to make money the only way I knew how. I had other jobs—typist, and so forth—but I was always trying to make a living as a writer. I have had to sacrifice self-respect for some jobs, working in the “tie-in novel” mill, writing books based on videogames and movies and TV series on a work-for-hire basis. I tried to do them well and bring something to them, but it wasn’t designed to make me feel like the artist I wanted to be. I had to run up against my limitations. Though I worked in television and movies I was bad at the committee-interactive part of it, being part of a writing team, and writing to order in a way that’s far more demanding than tie-in novels…I had to find time to write my own self-inspired, completely original works in between, in this phase of my life. I had to accept rejection sometimes. The occasional bad review…they were rare but one of them nearly killed me…all part of the deal.

9. What seems to distinguish personal writing in the cyberpunk genre in contrast to others – as you originated some of the writing in the movement?

I think cyberpunk itself was more adult than much other contemporary science fiction was, in its day. It seemed to be largely about “the street’s uses for technology”—the hustler, the thief, the outcast, the rebel, the outsiders using technology in their own way. There was an outlaw flavor to it. We were also bringing beat lit influences (at least Rudy Rucker was), influences like JG Ballard and Philip Dick and mainstream writers like John LeCarre and John D Macdonald and Richard Stark, noir, crime fiction—all this was folded in, to try to create a synthesis that reflected the grimly unfolding dystopia about us…The personal impact of technology as a social force was an issue…I also used cyberpunk in political allegory in A Song Called Youth…We’re seeing both sides of technology now, definitely including the dark side.

My personal cyberpunk—perhaps it has more anger in it. I looked around in the world and reacted to the social hypnosis I seemed to see; I reacted to injustice more than the others, I think; I felt an inner shame at not doing something to change the inequities, to rescue people from despair, so I tended to write stories that modeled a solution—like my stories “The Prince” or “Wolves of the Plateau”—or that somehow threw a social horror, some futurological dilemma, into stark relief. In short, I was more political, though Lew Shiner had his share of political slant. But I tried to write in a way that dramatized politics instead of pontificating about an issue—I wanted to be like Dickens or Steinbeck. At the same time I was very into the cyberpunk texture, and the depiction of the demimonde…

10. In a little section, tucked away, on the personal and professional website, one can find a little webpage called Oddities.[8] It contains some bits entitled two dames, the mysterious rosie: queen of all dogs, in memorium: brandon lee, a typical shirley fan, hot chicks, mark twain, murder, tv eye, and boy with violin. These include content, and photographs, with Neil Gaiman, Dame Edna, Mrs. Shirley, Brandon Lee, Rosie, and others. In brief, how did each of these interactions occur throughout the personal narrative of 63 years represented, in part, in Oddities?

I didn’t create Oddities, nor did I create the website, though certainly I was happy to cooperate with it. Paula Guran put it together (And it is currently undergoing a long-needed revision). It grew haphazardly over the last 18 years or so. Oddities is mostly just humor, odd pieces that didn’t fit in elsewhere. Brandon Lee’s death inspired the dead infant crow photos—that’s not humorous. Rosie was a little dog we had who died, who was beloved of our family. TV Eye is from a rock performance where I threw an axe into a plugged-in television set during a performance of the Iggy Pop song “TV Eye” (I’m a big fan of Iggy Pop).

11. Even further, you described some musical background too:

John Shirley was the original lead singer of SADONATION, and co-songwriter with Dave Corboy. JS was alsolead singer and lyricist for Obsession (Celluloid Records), with Sync 66 and Jerry Antonias, and is currently lead singer of THE SCREAMING GEEZERS. He has written the lyrics for 18 songs recorded by the BLUE OYSTER CULT. He is also a novelist and screenwriter. He was co-screenwriter of THE CROW and wrote the novels DEMONS, BLEAK HISTORY, CITY COME A-WALKIN’, BLACK GLASS and A SPLENDID CHAOS. His fiction spans science-fiction (cyberpunk), noir, and horror. His story collection Black Butterflies won the Bram Stoker Award. His new story collection, in august 2011, is IN EXTREMIS: The Most Extreme Short Stories of John Shirley.[9]

Curiously, in the same section entitled Oddities, a “boy” with a violin appears too: you.[10] Where does this musical and lyrical aptitude source itself?

I was a very young man when the violin picture was done (I cannot play violin). It’s a kind of embodiment of youthful verve. I did not write the musical background paragraph you see there—again, Paula Guran put the website together and wrote the copy there. So it’s not “you described”. But, yes, I was the original lead singer of SadoNation (go to YouTube, search for John Shirley SadoNation, “Johnny Paranoid” for a good video example) and other punk rock bands. I was then in post-punk bands, “futuristic funk” I called it. I have a band called The Screaming Geezers even now. I just did a recording called “I Want Ten Strippers at My Funeral” a few weeks ago. Where does it all come from? I came of age in the 1960s, early 70s, and big arena rock, powerful personalities like The Doors and The Rolling Stones and The Beatles and Frank Zappa and The Animals and Jimi Hendrix and Janis Joplin and The Who were everywhere. (I also loved Elvis as a kid.) I saw the Woodstock movie, I saw Easy Rider; I took in alternative cinema of all kinds. I went to concerts and was transfixed by the rockstar shamanism, so to speak, that I saw there. I heard storytelling in the lyrics especially in The Who and the Stones. Was later especially taken by Lou Reed as a storyteller in lyrics. Loved the atmospherics and visceral power of Iggy and the Stooges and then I struck upon the explosive musical fury of the Sex Pistols and the Clash and the Ramones and Richard Hell and Television and Suicidal Tendencies and the Avengers. All this was liberating. I found progressive bands like King Crimson…Plus, I had taken mescaline and LSD in the late 60s and some in the early 70s. (I take no drugs now.) Of course that’s going to imprint me with psychedelic rock…and it helped free me from my fears of other people. I opened up, blossomed in a way. I also took poetry classes, of course.

I became a fan of the Blue Oyster Cult in 1972 and my first-published novel, Transmaniacon, was titled and inspired by their early song “Transmaniacon MC”. There was always an energy of fantasy/sf in much of rock. It was amplified; it was, in a way, cyberpunk because the musicians were linked with electronics so intimately. Electric guitar solos seemed nearly telepathic to me; an expression, through tech, of the hidden inner person, the libido, certainly, but also the self assertion of the anger and secret internal dialogue of the inner person.

All the cyberpunk writers listened to rock. Gibson and Sterling listened to another favorite of mine, Sisters of Mercy. To me it all interfaces. Michael Moorcock, too, wrote for the Blue Oyster Cult…I’ve written 18 sets of lyrics they’ve recorded…

12. Bruce Sterling stated:

the typical bruce sterling fan is a computer-science major in some midwestern university.
‘stelarc’ is a john shirley fan. stelarc is an Australian performance artist who has an artificial third hand, sometimes bounces lasers off his eyeballs, and used to suspend his naked body in midair by piercing his flesh with meathooks. i had lunch with stelarc recently. i was surprised how much i enjoyed stelarc’s company and how much he genuinely reminded me of john.[11]

Furthermore, some compared luminaries such as “J.G. Ballard, William S. Burroughs, Anton Chekov, Philip K. Dick, Edgar Allan Poe, John Collier, Franz Kafka, William Kotzwinkle, Elmore Leonard, Gabriel Garcia Marquez, and Tom Wolfe” with you.[12] What responsibility to the trade of writing seems to coincide with the external high positive evaluation of productions by you?

If I understand the question correctly, you’re asking: Can I live up to these comparisons? I can only try. I have always felt like an artist. I’m always trying to improve, to get a new technique going, to become tighter and more powerful as a writer. It’s up to other people to decide to what degree I succeed at that.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1]Science Fiction Author and Writer.

[2] Individual Publication Date: October 1, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Photograph courtesy of John Shirley.

[4] Shirley, J. (2016). Biography. Retrieved from http://www.darkecho.com/JohnShirley/jsbio.html.

[5] Shirley, J. (2016). John Shirley: The Authorized Website. Retrieved from http://www.darkecho.com/JohnShirley/index.html.

[6] Shirley, J. (2016). Bibliography. Retrieved from http://www.darkecho.com/JohnShirley/jsbiblio.html.

[7] Shirley, J. (2016). John Shirley: The Authorized Website. Retrieved from http://www.darkecho.com/JohnShirley/index.html.

[8] Shirley, J. (2016). Oddities. Retrieved from http://www.darkecho.com/JohnShirley/oddities.html.

[9]Reverbnation (n.d.). John Shirley. Retrieved from https://www.reverbnation.com/johnshirley.

[10] Shirley, J. (2016). boy with violin. Retrieved from http://www.darkecho.com/JohnShirley/violin.html.

[11] Shirley, J. (2016). A typical Shirley fan. Retrieved from http://www.darkecho.com/JohnShirley/stelarc.html.

[12] Shirley, J. (2016). Fiction. Retrieved from http://www.darkecho.com/JohnShirley/jsfiction.html.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with John Shirley (Part One) [Online].October 2016; 12(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-shirley-part-one.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, October 1). An Interview with John Shirley (Part One). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-shirley-part-one.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with John Shirley (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A, October. 2016. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-shirley-part-one>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An Interview with John Shirley (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-shirley-part-one.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with John Shirley (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A (October 2016). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-shirley-part-one.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with John Shirley (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 12.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-shirley-part-one>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with John Shirley (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 12.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-shirley-part-one.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with John Shirley (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 12.A (2016):October. 2016. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-shirley-part-one>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with John Shirley (Part One) [Internet]. (2016, October; 12(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-john-shirley-part-one.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2016-09-22

An Interview with Deb Stone (Part Three)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 12.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Eight)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: September 22, 2016

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,185

ISSN 2369-6885

Deb Stone

Abstract

An interview with Deb Stone. She discusses: self-expression; Mensa previous high male-to-female issue; anything being done about it; instantaneous access to information and the need to single out geniuses; Mensa raising American political discourse; Mensa Match; its success; Mensa marriages; becoming geniuses through engineered circuitry in brains; first engineered brain member of Mensa; famous Mensa members; reasons for joining Mensa; most popular Mensa activities; stereotypes of about smart people that are inaccurate or annoying; accurate stereotypes; annoying things about non-smart people; upcoming collaborative projects; upcoming solo projects; and recommended authors.

Keywords: American Mensa, Deb Stone, Mensa.

An Interview with Deb Stone: Chair, AMC (National Boad of Directors), American Mensa (Part Three)[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Footnotes in and after the interview, & bibliography & citation style listing after the interview.*

25. What forms of self-expression provide meaning in life for you?

I love most kinds of music and play the piano. I attend concert, classical music, opera and theatre events. I love representational art (painting, sculpture, etc) but tend to shy away from some of the more modern and more abstract art. I read voraciously, and I write – but mostly for myself. I do needlework, I love to color and I love thunderstorms. I love to cook and I don’t really use recipes. I try to live my life doing the right things in the right way for the right reasons. My hope, manifested in the way I live my life (my own form of self-expression) is that when I’m gone I will have left a positive impact on those around me.

26. In the past, Mensa had a high male-to-female ratio. Does this remain the case?

Yes, the ratio is still skewed to a much larger proportion of males to females.

27. Is there anything being done about it?

I think the simple answer is no. We encourage people from many different groups that may be underrepresented in our current membership to join, not just women. Mensa, like any organization, doesn’t appeal to everyone equally. We have a single criterion for entry, and we welcome anyone who meets that criterion. Interestingly, at the current time a majority of the AMC is female so the general membership ratio is not reflected on the national board.

28. In a world where everyone has instantaneous access to information and expertise via cellphones, why do we still need to single out geniuses?

Genius is not the same thing as information or expertise. I do believe we need genius, because genius can help move things forward. Information and expertise is based on what we already know and the way we interpret or use what we already know. Sometimes genius is the spark for finding out something new, or interpreting something in a new way. Sometimes it’s an ability to do something better than it’s been done before – there are many ways genius can manifest (some positive and some negative). But ultimately, it’s part of what makes us human.

And I would add, we don’t need only genius – we need wisdom as well. Wisdom is not just being smart or having a high IQ. It’s much more than that, and I think it’s in relatively short supply in our world right now.

29. American politics certainly doesn’t seem to be getting smarter. Could Mensa help raise the discourse?

Perhaps we could. But while some of our individual members may try to do so, Mensa as an organization holds no opinions. That has been part of our guiding principles for much longer than I have been a member. And, as I have already said in this interview, smart varies depending on circumstance. What’s smart in terms of American politics? I have my opinion, but other Mensans have theirs as well. Within Mensa, we sometime say “Leading Mensans is like herding cats!”. You will also hear people make statements like “If you put 100 Mensans in a room you have at least 125 opinions.”

30. In 2014, you introduced Mensa Match, for Mensa members interested in dating.

Yes, that’s correct.

31. Has that been successful?

I haven’t taken part in it myself so have no direct knowledge, but I believe most people would answer that it has been successful.

32. Have you had any Mensa marriages?

There have been many Mensa marriages over many years, going back decades.

33. Do you think that during your lifetime, people will be able to become geniuses by adding engineered circuitry to their brains?

In my opinion, no, this will not happen in my lifetime. But I’ve been wrong before!

34. In what year do you think Mensa will admit its first member with an engineered brain – a synthetic brain with artificial intelligence?

Honestly, I have no idea. But it will be interesting to see how an artificial intelligence rates on an IQ scale as opposed to an achievement or knowledge-based test.

35. What famous members do you have?

There have been many famous Mensans over the years, and they have been famous for many different reasons. Just a few of them include Geena Davis & Alan Rachins (actors), Marilyn Vos Savant, Dr. Lance L Ware & Roland Berrill (co-founders of Mensa), Terance Black (screenwriter), Deborah Yates (Radio City Rockette), Andrain Cronauer, Bobby Czyz (WBA Cruiserweight Champion), Jean Auel (author) Patricia P Jennings (pianist), Richard Lederer (writer/speaker), Isaac Asimov (author), Dr. Abbie F Salny (former Mensa supervisory psychologist and author of the Mensa ‘Quiz-a-Day’ books.

36. Why would someone join Mensa?

There are lots and lots of reasons people join. Some join to see if they can. Some join so that they can show membership on a resume. Some join for access to people with like interests or backgrounds or perspectives. Some join for some of our special events or activities. Some join for access to our special interest groups. Some join for fun. Some join for fellowship. Some join for intellectual stimulation. Some join for family and relationships (I ended up with an entire second ‘family’ once I became active in Mensa).

37. What are your most popular activities?

There are a few national activities/events, including our national convention (called the Annual Gathering or AG), MindGames and Culture Quest (which is a national trivia contest.) There are also many SIGs (Special Interest Groups) which can be national or local. AML is made up of over 120 different local groups in 10 regions. The majority of face-to-face activities happen at the local group level. Among the most popular of these are activities like visits by a group of Mensans to museums or other non-M-specific venues or activities, dinner or lunch get-togethers, games get-togethers and what we call Regional Gathering or RGs. Depending on where (what part of the country) these things happen, they may draw anywhere from a just a few to several hundred members and guests. Like many membership organizations, the number of members who engage by attending events is a minority of the overall membership. In these days, there are may more members who are involved in activities that don’t include regular face-to face interactions, but are instead primarily online, use communication like email or are social media based. One of the things that consistently ranks as one of the most popular benefits of membership is our national publication (Mensa Bulletin), so that’s probably the most popular activity in terms of pure numbers.

38. What stereotypes about smart people do you find most inaccurate and annoying?

I most dislike stereotypes that focus on externals. For example, that ‘all smart people’ are nerdy, wear glasses, aren’t athletic, are unattractive, aren’t socially adept, are shy or are just ‘weird’.  On the other hand, we have the stereotypes that all smart people know about computers, are like absent-minded professors, are obsessive, only want to do nerdy things (like science, math computers, etc), all play weird role-playing games and don’t have to work hard to know or learn things.

39. What stereotypes are most accurate?

In my experience, the one thing that almost all Mensans have in common (because there are lots and lots and lots of differences) is books. Almost every Mensa home I have entered has books. We like to learn things, we like to know things, and so most of us read. A lot!

40. What do you find most annoying about not-smart people?

I challenge the premise of this question; what makes a person “not-smart”? People have different expertise, certainly. I scored in the top 2% on an IQ test. Does that make me smart? In some ways, I guess so. However, I don’t know practically anything about plumbing, so does that make a plumber smarter than I am?

In any case, I don’t find groups of people annoying. I do find some individual people annoying and it’s generally when they are being intentionally or purposefully obtuse or disagreeable or negative.

41. Any upcoming collaborative projects?

As I mentioned a little earlier, my business partner and I are just opening a new real estate business. The business will offer not only standard brokerage services, but will also provide additional ancillary services on a fee-for-service basis to a particular niche market.

42. Any upcoming solo projects?

I’m working on a couple of articles related to workers’ compensation, focused on the concept of integrated disability management. I’m currently planning a home improvement project to add a shower to an existing powder room, and am in the design phase.

43. Any recommended authors?

I read non-fiction on occasion, but I am primarily a fiction reader for fun and enjoyment. Having said that, my tastes are pretty eclectic. At any moment in time I probably have 5 or 6 books going. One might be classic science fiction (Asimov or Heinlein before he got too self-indulgent or John Brunner or even Burroughs or EE Smith). Another is probably a mystery of some kind; I love Sayers and Rex Stout, some of Robert B Parker’s books, Martha Grimes and some of the cozy series that are so ubiquitous right now. Another will definitely be a PG Wodehouse or Wizard of Oz book. I’m always re-reading Austen and Fielding, or I might be in the middle of Boccaccio or reading part of the Bible or the Koran or maybe some Kai Lung (Ernest Bramah). Oh, and the poetry and essays of John Donne.

You will see that there are a lot of books written anywhere from 20 to 200 or more years ago. One problem with being a reader, and being a reader who reads very quickly is that there are seldom books around the house that I haven’t already read. As a result, when I’m looking for a new book at 2:00am or some equally ridiculous time, I find myself pulling out old favorites and reading them again.

Having an e-reader does help provide access to books at those odd moments, but I prefer the visceral feel of a real book so usually use the Kindle when I’m traveling.

Thank you for your time, Deb Stone.

Bibliography

  1. LinkedIn. (2016). Deb Stone. Retrieved from https://www.linkedin.com/in/deb-stone-9578395.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Chair (2015, July), AMC (National Board of Directors), American Mensa; Owner (2015, August), Stone Business & Risk Consulting LLC.

[2] Individual Publication Date: September 22, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Thompson River University (1986-1988); Douglas College (1984-1986); Kamloops Senior Secondary.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Deb Stone.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Deb Stone (Part Three) [Online].September 2016; 12(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-deb-stone-part-three.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, September 15). An Interview with Deb Stone (Part Three). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-deb-stone-part-three.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Deb Stone (Part Three). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A, September. 2016. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-deb-stone-part-three>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An Interview with Deb Stone (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-deb-stone-part-three.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Deb Stone (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A (September 2016). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-deb-stone-part-three.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Deb Stone (Part Three)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 12.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-deb-stone-part-three>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Deb Stone (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 12.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-deb-stone-part-three.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Deb Stone (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 12.A (2016):September. 2016. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-deb-stone-part-three>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Deb Stone (Part Three) [Internet]. (2016, September; 12(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-deb-stone-part-three.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2016-09-15

An Interview with Deb Stone (Part Two)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 12.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Eight)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: September 15, 2016

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,446

ISSN 2369-6885

Deb Stone

Abstract

An interview with Deb Stone. She discusses: idea for Stone Business & Risk Consulting; tasks and responsibilities with own a consulting company; general advice relevant for those without the expertise in consultation; tasks and responsibilities as the chair of the national board of directors for American Mensa, Ltd.; interest in intelligence tests; interest in high IQ societies; greatest emotional struggle in personal life; greatest emotional struggle in professional life; general philosophy; political philosophy; social philosophy; economic philosophy; aesthetic philosophy; and the interrelationship of the philosophies.

Keywords: American Mensa, Deb Stone, Mensa.

An Interview with Deb Stone: Chair, AMC (National Board of Directors), American Mensa (Part Two)[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Footnotes in and after the interview, & bibliography & citation style listing after the interview.*

9. How did the professional credentials align with the eventual work as a vice president, actuary, and director, and so on?

I received my designations while I worked for Hanover Insurance, and that allowed me to take on leadership positions there. But the move out to California would not have happened if I was not an FCAS, and the Chief Actuary jobs also would not have been possible without my FCAS. While the designations gave me credibility for the non-actuarial positions, they were not necessary. Now that I am doing private consulting, having my FCAS is an imperative as there are many other actuaries out there. The combination of my being designated and having the broad background in insurance (instead of just the actuarial background) and business help me attract clients.

10. Any advice for those coming into actuarial work?

Sure – look at what you like to do. You will have to decide what practice area attracts you (property/casualty, life, annuities, health) and what your ultimate goal is likely to be. Actuaries can stay in insurance their entire career, or branch out into affiliated or non-traditional roles. Think about whether you want to be back-office kind of person or eventually work closer to the customer. Choose an employer who truly supports you as an aspiring actuary. Many employers offer study programs, and those that offer study time at work are a great help. Think about the timing of the work load at a prospective employer; e.g. consulting firms have a lot of work in the later winter and early spring because of when filings are due. It can be difficult to balance your time between work, study and life in that environment, especially for folks just coming into the field. Big data, predictive modelling and other technology driven applications are becoming more and more important in the field; be open to those possibilities. LEARN ABOUT INSURANCE – don’t be content with just the actuarial stuff. You’ll have many more and diverse opportunities if you really understand the entire business.

11. Now, you own Stone Business & Risk Consulting (since August, 2015).[5] How did the idea for this company come to you?

I had, at the request of my Commissioner at the NH Insurance Department, taken on a role as the Director of Financial Regulation. It turned out not to be the best fit for me; it was very technical but not really analytical. As I became increasingly familiar with the laws and regulations, processes, accounting standards, etc that are part of the financial regulation side, I just started to become a little bored and wasn’t really enjoying my position as much. I decided that it made sense, for the sake of the Department and myself, that I leave. Originally, my intention had really been to take some time off before deciding on a next move, but within a short time after announcing my departure and while still at the Department. I started hearing from some people who were interested in having me work with them. I was not willing to take on another full-time job as I am more interested now in some entrepreneurial possibilities, so a consulting firm seemed like a natural fit.

12. What tasks and responsibilities come with owning the consulting company?

Everything! I am a sole proprietor at this point, so have to do all the work. That includes research, evaluating projects, scheduling of my time, on some occasions acting as a project manager, bookkeeping and tax efforts, legal issues if they come up, data mining when necessary, building spreadsheets, liaising with clients or others involved in the project, writing reports, being available close to 24/7, etc.

13. What general advice seems relevant for those without the relevant expertise to know about consultation?

The best advice I can give someone who is interested in consulting is to talk to people who do that kind of work. As I mentioned earlier, it can be very difficult to pass the spring actuarial exams working in certain environments (because the work loads overtakes study time). Decide whether you are going to be looking for a job in an existing consulting firm or are going to start your own. If you are trying to join an existing firm, don’t meet with just one or more principals – talk to the associates, the people who support the projects. Find out whether the work environment/culture is a good fit for you. What would be your responsibilities for work? Are you responsible for client prospecting? Is there a mentoring and/or peer review process in place? If you are going out on your own, be honest about your capabilities and the amount of time you are willing to spend working for your clients – and how you are going to split your time between finding clients and working. Figure out what you need help with, and find the help. Make sure to keep some time for yourself, and communicate that to the people who are depending on you.

14. In addition to Stone Business & Risk Consulting, you are the chair of the national board of directors for American Mensa, Ltd. What tasks and responsibilities come with this high-level position?

The American Mensa Committee (AMC) is the national board of American Mensa. The chair runs the board meetings and the annual business meeting. The chair is a member of some committees, and may be (I am) an ex officio member of all other committees. The chair of AML is also an ex officio member of the Mensa Foundation board, a member of the Mensa International Board of Directors (IBD) and a member of the IBD Executive Committee. The chair writes an (almost) monthly column for our national magazine (the Mensa Bulletin) and an occasional column for the international publication. As an individual with prior board experience, I have tried to provide as much guidance and as many development opportunities to our board members as I can. Of course, the Chair sets the tone of the board.  I also try to follow the various Mensa Facebook groups and other social media. I work with the appropriate board members, committee members or staff on anything that comes up that needs direction from the board or executive committee. I attend Mensa events around the country when I can, and most times will be asked to speak. I make presentations at other forums on occasion as well (and I do interviews sometimes J). I know there are other things, but it’s impossible to remember then all at once!

15. Where did interest in intelligence tests originate for you?

Honestly, I didn’t have any real interest in IQ tests per se. A teacher told me my IQ when I was 11 years old, because “I had the highest IQ in my class.” It didn’t impress me much. In 1983, I was on a business trip and read a short blurb about Mensa in an airline magazine. It included a 10-question sample test, and I was able to complete the test in less than half the maximum time and with all 10 questions complete. The article suggested I take the Mensa admission test, and I did so. I qualified and joined. But I think that most Mensans actually don’t care so much about IQ in and of itself. I have yet to ask another Mensan, or be asked by another Mensan about an IQ score. It’s enough that through IQ testing, we have formed this community.

I care about IQ tests because they are the way people can qualify for Mensa and so I want our test(s) to be good ones.

16. What about high IQ societies?

Well, as a 32+ year member of Mensa, and a pretty active one at that, I’m in favor of them! Seriously, I appreciate Mensa for the benefits and relationships it has provided me, and for what are now life-long friendships. I was a member of another High-IQ society (Intertel) for a few years, but didn’t feel like I was getting much real benefit from that membership. Many of the members were also Mensa members, and the number of members in my area was quite small – so there weren’t really a lot of opportunities to get together.

So – I guess I would say that High-IQ societies are what we find in them and what we make of them. If the benefits and community that they create is of value to one, great! That value means different things to different people, and that’s great too. They work for some people, but not for others. I would love to see us grow our membership – because I think there are so many great things that Mensa provides – and so I value IQ tests as the means to that end.

17. What seems like the greatest emotional struggle in personal life?

For me, that would probably be conquering my own insecurities and shyness – still sometimes with me, despite all of the years.

18. What seems like the greatest emotional struggle in professional life?

My greatest professional struggle has always been managing my own expectations about people. There are a lot of things that are obvious to me that aren’t obvious to other people – and that surprises me constantly. When someone just doesn’t get something, I can have a tendency to appear to be impatient, irritated or intimidating. I’m better at managing it than I was when I was younger, but I have to be constantly aware.

19. What general philosophy seems the most correct to you?

Don’t do unto others what you would not have them do unto you.

This is a paraphrase of something Hillel said: “That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah.”

20. What political philosophy seems the most correct to you?

I don’t identify with one party or one platform. Philosophically, I believe in fiscal responsibility, personal freedom accompanied by personal responsibility and letting people live their own lives. I guess maybe a combination of deliberative democracy, some measure of republicanism and the capability approach.

21. What social philosophy seems the most correct to you?

I’m not sure how to answer this question. Social philosophy to me is too broad to summarize here, but I think you if you read the other questions related to my philosophy you will see a pattern to them. Respect, hope, personal responsibility, personal accountability, giving back to the communities in which one takes part, providing support in any or all of its aspects to those with a true need and contributing in a meaningful way.

22. What economic philosophy seems the most correct to you?

I’m a capitalist and a Yankee. I believe in competitive markets, and I believe that value isn’t measured only in dollars.

23. What aesthetic philosophy seems the most correct to you?

I would say my aesthetic philosophy is a combination of the music aesthetic and the mathematics aesthetic – very broadly interpreted. There is, in my mind, a clear link between mathematics and music (patterns & symbols) but there is music in more than just music. Beautiful prose and poetry have their own music, as does art like paintings or sculpture. And nature as well. I guess I believe we should look for the beauty in all things around us, and appreciate how they fit into a grand pattern of life.

24. What interrelates these philosophies?

I guess I can only repeat what I said at the end of my response on social philosophy – the same things contribute to and inform all of my philosophy: Respect, hope, personal responsibility, personal accountability, giving back to the communities in which one takes part, providing support in any or all of its aspects to those with a true need and contributing in a meaningful way.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Chair (2015, July), AMC (National Board of Directors), American Mensa; Owner (2015, August), Stone Business & Risk Consulting LLC.

[2] Individual Publication Date: September 15, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Thompson River University (1986-1988); Douglas College (1984-1986); Kamloops Senior Secondary.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Deb Stone.

[5] LinkedIn. (2016). Deb Stone. Retrieved from https://www.linkedin.com/in/deb-stone-9578395.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Deb Stone (Part Two) [Online].September 2016; 12(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-deb-stone-part-two.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, September 15). An Interview with Deb Stone (Part Two). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-deb-stone-part-two.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Deb Stone (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A, September. 2016. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-deb-stone-part-two>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An Interview with Deb Stone (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-deb-stone-part-two.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Deb Stone (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A (September 2016). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-deb-stone-part-two.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Deb Stone (Part Two)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 12.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-deb-stone-part-two>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Deb Stone (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 12.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-deb-stone-part-two.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Deb Stone (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 12.A (2016):September. 2016. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-deb-stone-part-two>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Deb Stone (Part Two) [Internet]. (2016, September; 12(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-deb-stone-part-two.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2016-09-08

An Interview with Deb Stone (Part One)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 12.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Eight)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: September 8, 2016

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,266

ISSN 2369-6885

Deb Stone

Abstract

An interview with Deb Stone. She discusses: geographic, cultural, and linguistic background; influenced on development; pivotal moments in major cross-sections of early life; interest in mathematics and education; interest in operations research connected to mathematics and education; benefits and purposes for memberships in organizations; lessons from actuarial experience; and general lessons from the diverse, but associated, professional stations.

Keywords: American Mensa, Deb Stone, Mensa.

An Interview with Deb Stone: Chair, AMC (National Board of Directors), American Mensa (Part One)[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Footnotes in and after the interview, & bibliography & citation style listing after the interview.*

1. In terms of geography, culture, and language, where does your family background reside?

I was born in New Hampshire, and with the exception of a few years in southern California I have lived my life in the northeast US (New England, upstate NY, grad school in Philadelphia and a three years in New Jersey.) My ancestors on one side came from England (17th century) and from Ireland, Scotland & Sweden (late 19th & early 20th century) and on the other from eastern Europe (mostly Russia, Poland & Ukraine) in the late 19th & early 20th century. The eastern European part of the family is Jewish and the other side is mostly Christian. We are American/English speakers primarily, although my paternal grandparents were born in Russia and Ukraine and learned English when they arrived as kids, and on the maternal side my great-grandmother arrived in this country from Sweden at age 20 speaking no English.

2. How did this influence development?

I have relatively traditional Yankee values because I grew up mostly in NH and CT, with parents who were Yankees as well. There was a focus on education & learning on both sides of the family, but more so from the Jewish side. My family is very diverse (multiple races, religions, etc) which made me relatively socially liberal and I like to think open-minded and non-judgmental. The cultural diversity of the family is also, I expect, behind my own fascination with other cultures and languages.

3. What about influences and pivotal moments in major cross-sections of early life including kindergarten, elementary school, junior high school, high school, and undergraduate studies (college/university)?

I realized pretty early on that I didn’t really need school. I was reading by the time I was about 2 ½ or 3 and I told my parents when I started first grade (age 5) that I was going to go to UNH and study math. Up until then, my parents were my biggest influence. They provided an environment in which I could learn, they were both readers and encouraged my love of reading and they also encouraged my desire to know things and to keep learning. Once I started school I was lucky to have a few good teachers along the way. By good I mean they let me explore things on my own while providing support, and kept exposing me to stuff outside the normal curriculum. Like many Mensans, I became a de facto teacher’s aide and tutor.

Also like many Mensans, I was painfully shy and somewhat withdrawn (a lively internal life helped with that). Also, my family moved fairly often, which meant I was often in an environment in which I didn’t know anyone and starting over to try to make friends. When we relocated near the beginning of my sophomore year in high school, I entered a new school about a week into the school year, not knowing anyone. At lunch that first day, a girl came over to me as I was looking around the cafeteria, and said “We saw you in French class and Algebra – would you like to come sit with us?” I made friends that day that I still have now (45 years later). I was so grateful for the way she made me feel welcome, that I decided that I wanted to be able to do that for someone else someday. So, thanks to Chris Braen, I started trying to reach out to people, learn to listen and draw people out, and come out of my shell. She was a huge influence, because she was instrumental in helping shape the rest of my life.

College was in some ways more of the same. I entered (UNH as a math major!) with credits for the first full year of calculus, and exempted from certain other requirements through testing. That meant I was once again a little bit of a fish out of water, since I wasn’t in very many classes with freshmen. I also worked for the math department as a calculus exam grader in their testing center, which again set me a little apart from the people coming in to take exams who were mostly those same freshmen. My college roommate started dating the son of one of my first college math professors, and I got to know the whole family. Dr. Ross was another big influence on my; he accepted me, and encouraged me in my math studies and in leading a full life.

4. You earned a BS (1974-1977) in mathematics and education from the University of New Hampshire and an MBA (1980-1981) in operations research from University of Pennsylvania (The Wharton School).[5] What was the interest in mathematics and education for you?

I always loved math, right from the beginning when it was just arithmetic. I have a very analytical mind (and approach to just about everything) and I loved the problem solving. My friends and classmates hated the word problems, they were my favorites! And I found that by learning how to approach a problem, taking disparate pieces of information and acknowledging when there was incomplete information, I could still come up with a way to solve the problem. It was not only natural to me; it was a joy as well. And, as I mentioned earlier, I really enjoy learning new things. Even though I graduated from college a semester early, I still completed a double major (math and education) as well as a minor in history. I ran out of time with that early graduation, or I would have completed an Economics minor as well. And this analytical/strategic/problem-solving ability has been a huge benefit to me in my professional life as well.

As for education, what better joy is there than passing that love of learning and, if possible, how to actually apply what one knows effectively to solve problems, to others as well? I found that I could help other people learn, and that I was pretty good at communicating to many different audiences. To this day, I do tutoring of adults through a program that works with immigrants and those studying for high-school equivalency or life skills. One of the great things about working with others is not only does one teach them but one can learn so much.

5. What about interest in operations research connected to the educational background of mathematics and education?

Operations research was a natural fit for the way my brain works. It’s mathematical modelling to solve business problems. I started at Wharton expecting to be a finance major, but as soon as I started the required O/R course (part of the core curriculum for all MBA candidates) I realized it was just FUN! While I no longer use much in the way of those actual techniques, the study of it and the few years that I worked in that field, contributes every day to my approach to problem-solving.

6. You remain a member of the Fellow of the Casualty Actuarial Society (FCAS) and member of the American Academy of Actuaries (MAAA).[6] What benefits and purposes come from membership in these organizations?

I have worked at least partly in the actuarial field since 1985, and achieved my ACAS/MAAA in 1995 and my FCAS in 1997. The designations allow me to practice in the actuarial field, and do the things a designated actuary can do (that an aspiring actuary is not qualified to do.) The designations as extremely well-known in the insurance industry, and in many cases pre-requisites for certain positions. I intend to maintain them for as long as I have any involvement or interest in working in the insurance industry.

7. You held a number of positions, as follows: NNIC (1987-1991) as an actuarial assistant, Hanover Insurance (December, 1991-March, 1999) as a director, William M. Mercer, Inc. (April, 1999-September 1999) as a principal, Firemans Fund Insurance Company (April, 2000-May, 2005) as a regional actuary and finance director, Allianz Global Risks US (June, 2005-December, 2005) as a vice president and chief actuary, NH Insurance Department (November, 2006-July, 2010) as a P & C assistant actuary, RiverStone Resources (August, 2010-January, 2011) as a vice president and chief actuary, NH Insurance Department (February, 2011-June, 2012) as a P & C assistant actuary, NH Insurance Department (July, 2012-May, 2014) as a actuary and director of market regulation, and NH Insurance Department (May, 2014-July, 2015) as a director of financial regulation.[7] With this background in mind, what particular lessons came from the experience as an actuary?

Experience as an actuary has taught me a lot. It solidified my love for and appreciation of creative, analytical problem-solving. In order to do the job in the best way I could, I felt that it was necessary to understand not only actuarial techniques and methods, but also the entire spectrum of insurance and how it works. So I learned all I could. It has given me a network or thoughtful, insightful and intelligent folks that I can rely on to help me out when I met something in my professional life that I needed help with. Being a working actuary also exposed me to the new methods and ideas that have come along over my more than 30 years in the industry – I get to keep learning new things, and learning and applying things in way that help others, whether they are friends, colleagues, management of my company or clients.

In addition, because I am a person with a more strategic view of the world and the ability to apply my knowledge and skills in different arenas, I have been fortunate enough to have expanded my horizons beyond just the actuarial side. I have worked in finance, as an underwriting director, as an insurance executive in charge of a ‘Small Business’ unit, I have been an insurance regulator, I am a partner in a real estate investment business and also a new real estate company and I now run a business as a private consultant covering actuarial, risk managements and business.

8. What general lessons came from experience throughout these diverse, but associated, professional stations?

The lessons one learns are myriad, but here are a few of the things that I think about:

  • Never give up – there is always another way to address a problem, issue or situation.
  • Nothing happens in isolation. Always try to think strategically – what are the implications of what you are doing or saying?
  • Take joy in what you do, and leverage that into better work and better relationships.
  • Don’t get into an analysis/paralysis situation – at some point it’s necessary to make a decision and take action.
  • Don’t be afraid of making mistakes; that’s how one learns. If you never make a mistake, you aren’t taking enough risk. (And that’s from a risk professional).
  • Always look to learn something new. And welcome challenges; we learn through them.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Chair (2015, July), AMC (National Board of Directors), American Mensa; Owner (2015, August), Stone Business & Risk Consulting LLC.

[2] Individual Publication Date: September 8, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Thompson River University (1986-1988); Douglas College (1984-1986); Kamloops Senior Secondary.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Deb Stone.

[5] LinkedIn. (2016). Deb Stone. Retrieved from https://www.linkedin.com/in/deb-stone-9578395.

[6] LinkedIn. (2016). Deb Stone. Retrieved from https://www.linkedin.com/in/deb-stone-9578395.

[7] LinkedIn. (2016). Deb Stone. Retrieved from https://www.linkedin.com/in/deb-stone-9578395.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Deb Stone (Part One) [Online].September 2016; 12(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-deb-stone-part-one.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, September 8). An Interview with Deb Stone (Part One). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-deb-stone-part-one.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Deb Stone (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A, September. 2016. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-deb-stone-part-one>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An Interview with Deb Stone (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-deb-stone-part-one.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Deb Stone (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A (September 2016). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-deb-stone-part-one.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Deb Stone (Part One)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 12.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-deb-stone-part-one>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Deb Stone (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 12.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-deb-stone-part-one.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Deb Stone (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 12.A (2016):September. 2016. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-deb-stone-part-one>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Deb Stone (Part One) [Internet]. (2016, September; 12(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-deb-stone-part-one.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2016-09-01

An Interview with Lois Volk, M.A.

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 12.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Eight)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: September 1, 2016

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,142

ISSN 2369-6885

Lois Volk.jpg

Abstract

An Interview with Lois Volk, M.A. She discusses: geographic, cultural, and linguistic family background; influence on development; influences and pivotal moments in personal history; origination of interest in executive leadership; origination of interest in entrepreneurship; common sense aspects of mortgage brokerages based on 25 years of experience; less common and important knowledge about mortgages for the general public; things involved in advice to clients on new properties or refinancing; tasks and responsibilities of specializations; services to clients; tasks and responsibilities of previous work positions; Invis’s differences from other companies; personal and professional lessons from Personal Choice Mortgage Services Inc., TD Canada Trust, and Invis; tasks and responsibilities with CAWEE; CAWEE integration of the disparate and diverse female executives and entrepreneurs in Canada; Budget targets $5 million for female entrepreneurs  (2015) and the probable outcome of the millions of dollars; answers to queries from the publications; the possibility of net benefit to women executives and entrepreneurs in the short- and long-term; unique aspects of being a woman executive and entrepreneur; advice for upcoming women executives; and advice for well-established executive and entrepreneur women to optimize performance.

Keywords: Canadian, entrepreneurs, executives, Lois Volk, women.

An Interview with Lois Volk, M.A.[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Footnotes in and after the interview, and bibliography & citation style listing after the interview.*

1. In terms of geography, culture, and language, where does your family background reside?

I was born and raised in rural Saskatchewan.  My parents were second generation Canadians of German descent.  They were devout Roman Catholic and religion played a large part in my upbringing.

Saskatchewan was settled mainly by central European immigrants who wanted a better life for their children.  Most of them were farmers who were lured to the prairies by the promise of free land in the early 1900s. It was hard work in an inhospitable climate that brought frigid temperatures, snow storms, damaging hail and drought.  They wanted a better life for their children and my grandparents were among many who valued education and encouraged my father to go to university and become a teacher.

2. How did this influence development?

My mother taught for a year before marrying my father and raising a family.  I was the second of seven children born within 10 years.  We shared the housework from an early age and I started babysitting at 13 to begin earning money of my own.

3. What about influences and pivotal moments in major cross-sections of early life including kindergarten, elementary school, junior high school, high school, and undergraduate studies (college/university)?

Kindergarten wasn’t offered in the small community I lived in when beginning school.  My father was the principal of the rural school I attended until the age of ten and superintendent during the rest of my schooling.  Academic excellence was expected.

4. Where did interest in executive leadership in general originate for you?

Throughout my career as a mortgage broker I have usually worked on my own.  On one occasion I attempted to head up a team of brokers but soon realized my skills did not include management or leadership.

My leadership role in CAWEE was not premeditated.  I joined the Canadian Association of Women Executives and Entrepreneurs (CAWEE) over four years ago to expand my business contacts.   I volunteered to work on the membership committee, served as the Director of Membership for a year and was then asked to consider the role of President.  I certainly did not have my sight set on leading the Board but I was committed to supporting the group and decided to accept the challenge.

5. What about interest in entrepreneurship in particular?

After university I worked for provincial and municipal governments in research/administrative positions for six years and decided that I would be happier in a profession that offered better compensation for more effort and came with greater challenges.  On moving to Toronto in 1987 I applied for, and was accepted into a mortgage broker trainee position.  I loved the business and was able to build my contacts and client base quickly thanks to an active real estate market in the late 1980s.

6. You self-summarize, as follows:

Lois Volk is a mortgage broker with over 25 years’ experience in the GTA. She provides professional confidential service and expert mortgage advice to clients who are purchasing new properties or refinancing. Her areas of specialization include residential and commercial mortgages, pre-approvals, rental properties, self-employed borrowers, new immigrants, poor credit, debt consolidation, and home equity lines of credit. With access to mortgage products from over 40 lenders including banks, trust companies, mortgage corporations and private sources she will find the best mortgage solution for any borrower. And better yet, her services are paid for by the lenders so there is not cost to the borrower![5]

This gives grounds for some general questions in relation to personal expertise. To begin, what core aspects of mortgages, based on 25 years of mortgage broker experiences, seem of import to the general public – common sense from years of experience?

I feel it is most important to listen to your clients and understand their goals in order to be a successful mortgage broker.  Are they looking for a cheaper option than paying rent?  Do they want to make money in real estate?  Do they want a home for their family, now or in the future?  Do they want to be debt free as soon as possible?  If they already own a home are they borrowing money to renovate, invest or consolidate debt?  It is important to address these concerns throughout the mortgage approval.

I believe it is essential for my clients who are purchasing their first home to fully comprehend the responsibilities of owning a home with a mortgage.  A mortgage is likely the biggest debt they will ever have and they have to be able to handle the payments plus other household expenses including property taxes, utilities, maintenance and possibly condo fees.  In this low interest rate environment it’s important that they are aware of the impact of potentially higher interest rates and payments at renewal.

My goal is to help them choose a mortgage that offers a good rate for a term appropriate to their long term plans and with the most flexible features.  They also have to look ahead and seriously consider future changes to their financial situation.  For example, first time buyers planning a family will face reduced income during maternity leave followed by many years of daycare expenses.

7. What less common knowledge about mortgages seem of importance to the general public – for them to know about it?

Several lenders now register their mortgages as collateral charges which means they cannot be switched to another financial institution without incurring legal fees. This prevents many borrowers from being able to look for a better rate when they renew.  These mortgages often cannot be transferred to another property without paying penalties and additional legal fees.

Many borrowers are also not aware of how the penalty for early repayment is calculated.  For fixed rate mortgages the penalty is usually either three months interest or interest rate differential, whichever is greater.  The differential has to be carefully explained because it can be significant if interest rates drop during the term.  Depending on the size of the mortgage and the remaining term the penalties can be in the tens of thousands of dollars.

8. What is involved in “confidential service and expert mortgage advice to clients who are purchasing new properties or refinancing”?[6]

It’s important that my clients trust me to respect their privacy and keep their personal information confidential.

I have access to mortgage products from over 40 institutional lenders from which I will choose a few lenders that offer competitive rates and flexible features that suit my clients’ needs and from this short list I will help my clients select the most appropriate lender.  I have to keep up to date on changes in the lending guidelines of individual lenders and government legislation pertaining to mortgage lending.

9. Your “areas of specialization include residential and commercial mortgages, pre-approvals, rental properties, self-employed borrowers, new immigrants, poor credit, debt consolidation, and home equity lines of credit.”[7] What tasks and responsibilities come with these specializations?

Offering a wide range of services ensures that I can best help my clients.  It also increases the referral sources I can approach such as realtors, immigration lawyers, accountants, credit counselling services and home renovators.

10. You have “access to mortgage products from over 40 lenders including banks, trust companies, mortgage corporations and private sources…”[8] For those without the background knowledge about the terminology and conceptual associations involved in this statement, what does this mean, and involve in terms of services for clients?

Although most mortgage lenders offer similar terms and conditions there are often subtle differences in the underwriting guidelines. It’s imperative for me to know the differences so I can ensure my clients’ applications will be approved quickly.

Service levels vary between lenders and I choose lenders that provide fast response times, consistent underwriting decisions and excellent client support after the mortgage closes.

Many of the lenders I work with offer a limited range of products and some specialize in mortgages only.  These lenders often rely on mortgage brokers for most of their business and provide high service levels and competitive rates.

Over the past few years new legislation has made it more difficult for self-employed individuals to find financing with the best rates and terms, particularly if their income after business deductions is low.  Self-employed borrowers often come to me after their mortgage applications are declined by their own banks.  They may be able to qualify with ‘B’ lenders that are willing to accept more risk for higher rates and fees.

Private mortgages are also provided by individuals who are willing to accept even great risk for higher returns. They may entertain mortgages for borrowers with low income or poor credit and for sub-standard properties.

11. Your previous posts include mortgage broker at Personal Choice Mortgage Services Inc. (1995 to 1996), mortgage consultant at TD Canada Trust (1996 to 2003), and director of membership at Canadian Association of Women Executives and Entrepreneurs (June, 2013 to June, 2014).[9] What tasks and responsibilities came with these posts?

With Personal Choice Mortgage Services I was a mortgage broker in the same capacity as I am now at Invis.  I decided to more to Invis, a much larger company, for better administrative and marketing support.

At TD Canada Trust my position was similar but I could only offer TD Canada Trust products.

As Director of Membership for CAWEE my responsibilities included ensuring guests were welcomed at all events, promoting membership in CAWEE,  reviewing membership applications and presenting them to the board for approval, and hosting the monthly networking breakfast meetings.

12. Now, you are a mortgage broker for Invis (2004 to the present).[10] What differentiates Invis from other companies?

I chose Invis because I was impressed with the management team and I have remained happy with how they have continued to enhance their broker services to remain current with new trends in the market.  Many of the other large brokers now offer only a franchise model but Invis continues to support individual brokers and small teams.

13. What consistent personal and professional lessons emerge from time across the three separate business: Personal Choice Mortgage Services Inc., TD Canada Trust, and Invis?

In order to succeed in this business, it is essential to:

– always have a business plan

– maintain thorough knowledge of lenders’ policies and products

– keep in touch with referral sources and existing clients on a regular basis

– network regularly to increase business contacts

– remember to always thank clients, lenders and referral sources.

14. At the same time as a mortgage broker for Invis, you hold the status of president of the Canadian Association of Women Executives and Entrepreneurs (C.A.W.E.E.).[11],[12] In correspondence, you noted the volunteer nature of this position. What does this position involve in terms of task and responsibilities – especially in light of its volunteer nature as a formal national collective?

CAWEE is a not-for-profit organization so all board members are volunteers.

As president of CAWEE I am responsible for managing the board which includes chairing our monthly board meetings and assisting the board members in fulfilling their duties.  I also represent CAWEE at our own events and when attending functions sponsored by other agencies.

15. How does C.A.W.E.E. integrate the numerous disparate and diverse female executives and entrepreneurs, and their associated perspectives, in such a large land nation as Canada?

Although the name implies that it is national at this time we represent only the Greater Toronto Area (GTA).

16. Budget targets $5 million for female entrepreneurs (2015) describes a massive, recent, investment in female entrepreneurship at a target investment of $5,000,000.[13] Even further, the budget had $700,000,000 to “support women-owned businesses.”[14] Astutely, you had queries for both sets of millions of dollars. You had curiosity about the developing plans. As noted in the article, it stated:

“I’m just very curious about how they’ll be developing their plans and who they will be targeting. Five million dollars these days doesn’t seem to be a lot of money,” Volk said.

The budget also mentioned $700 million in financing over three years from the Business Development Bank of Canada to support women-owned businesses. That project isn’t new money.

But BDBC spokeswoman Daniela Pizzuto said she expects it will allow between 300 and 400 more loans to businesses that are majority-owned by women.

Volk said she was surprised that the BDBC would have a special fund set aside for women, and that more information on the programming is needed.

“Why would women be applying for this program and not others? Are the criteria different for women or for men? Are the interest rates different?” she wondered.[15]

What seems like the probable outcome of these millions of dollars with one year of hindsight?

CAWEE hasn’t monitored the results of these programs because most of our members operate small businesses with limited financing requirements.

The association began in 1987 as the Canadian Association of Women Executives and was more politically motivated to improve the status of women in the work place and to lobby for greater presence in the board room.  Over the years the membership has changed to include entrepreneurs and the organization changed the focus to building relationships and away from political lobbying.

17. What about the answers to the astute queries from the publication from you – regarding why women, what criteria, what interest rates, and so on?

Although I welcome any form of support for female entrepreneurs, the press release by the Status of Women did not provide any details of the funding and I couldn’t help being a bit skeptical that it was little more than political rhetoric.

18. Do initiatives to support women-owned businesses seem a net benefit to women executives and entrepreneurs, and the local, provincial, and national economy, in the short- and long-term?

Of course, initiatives that help women in business will have short and long term benefits to the economy.  It is also important that women entrepreneurs are made aware of these initiative and take advantage of them.

19. What unique aspects of executive status and entrepreneurship come with being a woman in these areas of Canadian life compared to others, and in contrast to men (if different)?

Many CAWEE members are in professions where women are respected and treated equally but they are more comfortable developing business with other women.  The support and encouragement of the CAWEE community will help our members be more confident when working in male-dominated business circles.

20. For those upcoming executive and entrepreneurial women, any advice for their increased probabilities of success?

For entrepreneurs it is important to understand their personal strengths, to have a clear vision of what they want to accomplish and to manage their time carefully.  They have to be able to ‘sell’ their services or products so business development activities, including networking, must be regularly scheduled.

21. What about those well-established executive and entrepreneurial women to optimize their performance in their respective professional sectors?

Surround yourself with people you admire and respect and continue to learn from them.

Thank you for your time, Lois.

Bibliography

  1. Canadian Association for Women Executives and Entrepreneurs. (2016). Canadian Association for Women executives and Entrepreneurs. Retrieved from http://cawee.net/.
  2. (2016). Lois Volk. Retrieved from https://ca.linkedin.com/in/lois-volk-16976613.
  3. Winter, J. (2015, May 6). Budget targets $5 million for female entrepreneurs. Retrieved from http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/budget-targets-5-million-for-female-entrepreneurs.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Mortgage Broker, Invis; President, Canadian Association of Women Executives and Entrepreneurs.

[2] Individual Publication Date: September 1, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com; Full Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2017 at www.in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] M.A., University of Regina.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Lois Volk.

[5] LinkedIn. (2016). Lois Volk. Retrieved from https://ca.linkedin.com/in/lois-volk-16976613.

[6] LinkedIn. (2016). Lois Volk. Retrieved from https://ca.linkedin.com/in/lois-volk-16976613.

[7] LinkedIn. (2016). Lois Volk. Retrieved from https://ca.linkedin.com/in/lois-volk-16976613.

[8] LinkedIn. (2016). Lois Volk. Retrieved from https://ca.linkedin.com/in/lois-volk-16976613.

[9] LinkedIn. (2016). Lois Volk. Retrieved from https://ca.linkedin.com/in/lois-volk-16976613.

[10] LinkedIn. (2016). Lois Volk. Retrieved from https://ca.linkedin.com/in/lois-volk-16976613.

[11] LinkedIn. (2016). Lois Volk. Retrieved from https://ca.linkedin.com/in/lois-volk-16976613.

[12] Canadian Association for Women Executives and Entrepreneurs. (2016). Retrieved from http://cawee.net/.

[13] Winter, J. (2015, May 6). Budget targets $5 million for female entrepreneurs. Retrieved from http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/budget-targets-5-million-for-female-entrepreneurs.

[14] Winter, J. (2015, May 6). Budget targets $5 million for female entrepreneurs. Retrieved from http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/budget-targets-5-million-for-female-entrepreneurs.

[15] Winter, J. (2015, May 6). Budget targets $5 million for female entrepreneurs. Retrieved from http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/budget-targets-5-million-for-female-entrepreneurs.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Lois Volk, M.A. [Online].September 2016; 12(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lois-volk-m-a.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, September 1). An Interview with Lois Volk, M.A.. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lois-volk-m-a.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Lois Volk, M.A.. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A, September. 2016. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lois-volk-m-a>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An Interview with Lois Volk, M.A..” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lois-volk-m-a.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Lois Volk, M.A..” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 12.A (September 2016). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lois-volk-m-a.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Lois Volk, M.A.‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 12.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lois-volk-m-a>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Lois Volk, M.A.‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 12.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lois-volk-m-a.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Lois Volk, M.A..” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 12.A (2016):September. 2016. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lois-volk-m-a>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Lois Volk, M.A. [Internet]. (2016, September; 12(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-lois-volk-m-a.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2017. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2016-08-22

An Interview with Associate Professor Stavroula Kousteni (Part Three)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 11.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Seven)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: August 22, 2016

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2016

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,260

ISSN 2369-6885

2016-08-07_Jacobsen S.D._An Interview with Associate Professor Stavroula Kousteni.JPG

Abstract

An interview with Associate Professor Stavroula Kousteni. She discusses: skeletal system as the endocrine system; glucose homeostasis; human symptoms similar to mice models; most appealing social philosophy; most appealing economic philosophy; bad science, pseudoscience, and non-science, or misinformation, with respect to medicine and improvement of the public discourse and knowledge of science; and concluding feelings and thoughts.

Keywords: economic philosophy, endocrine, science, skeleton, social philosophy, Stavroula Kousteni.

An Interview with Associate Professor Stavroula Kousteni: Associate Professor, Physiology and Cellular Biophysics, Columbia University (Part Three)[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Footnotes throughout the interview, and bibliography and citation style listing after the interview.*

12. One implication is that the skeletal system is part of the endocrine system as well. 

This research theme is explored by the other half of my lab. This work was started by another investigator in the bone field, Dr. Gerard Karsenty. He was the first one that showed, back in 2007, that a hormone secreted specifically by osteoblasts called osteocalcin, improves glucose metabolism, and insulin production and sensitivity. In fact, his lab has done a lot of work to integrate bone into an endocrine system, which includes the pancreas and other glucose regulating organs such as the liver or adipose tissue.

My lab has tried to identify new hormones that are secreted by osteoblasts and regulate novel aspects of energy metabolism. We found one that regulates insulin secretion from the pancreas and appetite.  The function of bone as an endocrine organ that regulates whole body metabolism has now expanded to other unanticipated functions: such as male fertility and cognition.

13. When you state that it has serious implications for blood glucose, then that relates to the pancreas, the liver, fatty or adipose tissue, male fertility, and cognition, each of those areas has, at least, some relation to glucose metabolism. How does this relate to keeping blood glucose stable? In other words, blood glucose homeostasis among other things.

When we make mice that lack this hormone from the osteoblast, the mutant mice have higher blood glucose levels and lower insulin levels, than normal mice, a combination that is not good. (Laughs) If there is not enough insulin in the body, cells do not get a signal to import glucose. The mice become glucose intolerant because they do not metabolize glucose well. Also, when they eat or when they eat a high-fat diet, they gain more weight than they would if they did not lack the hormone. This metabolic abnormality shows that the hormone is required for glucose homeostasis.

14. When I think about it, it is early. Those reports were put out at the same time. There has been further research done.[5] With that in mind, you have seen some of the other ‘correlations-of-action’, say, to the areas stated by you. Cognition, male fertility, adipose tissue, and so on, are there people that don’t have the gene or it’s not upregulated for them – and so they start to show symptoms similar to the mice?

Translation of mouse models into human systems is complex. To simplify, there are two ways to do it. One is through correlative studies. You have two groups of people. You have one group that is healthy. You say, “Okay, this one has a healthy level of these hormones.” I am going to measure the level of these hormones in both groups. What are the levels in normal people and diabetics?

Those studies are indicative, not mechanistic. This has been done for the osteocalcin work. Many studies show osteocalcin levels have an inverse correlation with glucose levels in humans. Higher osteocalcin levels correlate with insulin sensitivity. The second approach is by genetic means. You can search for mutations in the protein of interest by screening the DNA of a large population. If a mutation can be found, then we see if the people bearing the mutation have metabolic abnormalities.

Because hormones are important for homeostasis and for survival, it is uncommon to find mutations in them, presumably the body develops protective mechanisms to preclude them. Therefore, if the receptors through which the hormones work is known, we search for mutations in the receptor. The Karsenty group has done this for the osteocalcin receptor and found mutations in it that affect fertility in males.

15. What social philosophy most appeals to you?

In general, I believe in giving, if I could describe in one simple word for a lot of personal beliefs: giving. I consider myself lucky to be where I am and do what I love. I think that it is our responsibility – at least that’s how I view myself – to be citizens in a place where we are able to do what we want to do, to teach it, to pass it to other people, and to help them understand how to do it better.

To help in any way that we can in whatever area we are more sensitive to, especially in an area where we are more sensitive to; for example, my country, Greece, among other troubles lives through and deals firsthand with an immediate crisis. We’ve had thousands of refugees embarking on vessels of despair and too often losing their lives in efforts to escape to Greece. I am very sensitive to that. My 16-year old son and I belong to different organizations who actively try to help the immigrants.

I’m very sensitive to women’s issues. Women face very challenging and often rehabilitating issues in many different aspects that affect their personal and professional life, their physical and emotional wellbeing.  I am trying to understand this problem within the environment I work, and function and give/help to alleviate them as much as I can. That is my main philosophy, social philosophy, very simplified: give. Teach what you’re best at doing, inspire people to do it, and then help with what you’re more sensitive to. The world has many problems, but we’re all sensitive to it in different ways. Find that niche, find that area, and contribute to it.

16. What economic philosophy most appeals to you?

People should be rewarded for what they do and how much they try. Part of this is financial reward, but I don’t believe in exploiting it. I don’t believe in its extreme case.

17. There’s a lot of bad science, pseudoscience, and non-science with respect to medicine. Many citizens take these false medical services for fatal health problems and at times die without proper medical care. To solve this problem of public ignorance of science, cynical exploitation of the ignorance by non-scientists and non-medical professionals, and the demarcation of good medical care from bad medical care, what can be done?

I don’t know if you can call it bad science, but you can definitely call it misinformation. It is usually people without appropriate expertise who make wrong associations, the wrong correlations, and present them in the wide public. The only means to overcome this problem is with an abundance of the correct information. Means that scientific research can be translated into lay language for the public on the impact of the findings on their whole and not in partiality.

For example, we live in an era when certain patients can be offered the opportunity to have their genome sequenced looking for mutations that may help to more precisely characterize their disease and to in turn offer clues for how to treat it. This is the concept of Precision Medicine. That is, medicine tailored to address the personal needs of a patient.  Patients should be informed about it. They should understand the possibilities and limitations. The same approach should be followed to inform patients about new discoveries with clinical applications relevant to their disease, especially if such applications are available and easy to acquire.

Large medical institutions with substantial research where knowledge is actively shared and discussed daily tend to do that. Same with many scientific societies. For example, the American Society for Bone and Mineral Research has task forces whose role is to outreach its members and through this process raise awareness and update its medical membership on new guidelines and treatment options for bone and bone-related diseases.

Also, it provides free access to the public to an online Educational Research Center that has links to disease descriptions, recommendations for treatment, explanations of the disease, and links that take you to what is most recently known or published about it. There is a large research feed that one can go through. The American Society of Hematology is doing it the same things for a very large number of patients who suffer from different types of hematological diseases and malignancies.  In general, scientific societies are working to get the information to the patients in an easily and freely accessible manner.

18. Any feelings or thoughts in conclusion?

I think we have reached an era in terms of research and methodologies that we have amazing tools in our hands to ask important and difficult but better informed questions about the pathogenesis of many diseases that were thought of as incurable. Also, we have new tools and methods to target them. The face of research is changing too. It is extremely exciting too. In contrast to the past, if you did work that was quality and satisfying to work in and with your lab, you will see now that the most important discoveries and comprehensive works involve teams of investigators with a lot of different types of expertise.

They are cell biologists, mouse geneticists, human geneticists, biostatisticians, and so on. We live in a time that is both exciting and inspiring to see how many possibilities we have to think about the pathogenesis of disease. In a time that it is very important and crucial to work collaboratively to interrogate every problem from different perspectives, whether those involve samples from mice or humans, or cross-discipline expertise. If we keep doing it, I cannot wait to see how many discoveries we will reach in understanding disease pathogenesis and how much we can do it treating them. I live in this time. It is an exciting time to live in.

Thank you for your time, Professor Kousteni.

Bibliography

  1. Columbia University. (2016). Kousteni, Stavroula, Ph.D. Retrieved from http://www.physiology.columbia.edu/Stavroula.html.
  2. Columbia University Medical Center. (2014, January 21). Common Blood Cancer May Be Initiated by Single Mutation in Bone Cells. Retrieved from http://newsroom.cumc.columbia.edu/blog/2014/01/21/common-blood-cancer-may-initiated-single-mutation-bone-cells/.
  3. Columbia University Medical Center. (2014, January 22). Potential Drug Target Found for Common Blood Cancer. Retrieved from http://www.dddmag.com/news/2014/01/potential-drug-target-found-common-blood-cancer.
  4. News-Medical.Net. (2014, January 21). Mutation in bone cells may cause acute myeloid leukemia: Study. Retrieved from http://www.news-medical.net/news/20140121/Mutation-in-bone-cells-may-cause-acute-myeloid-leukemia-Study.aspx.
  5. Waknine, Y. (2014, January 27). Hit the Cancer Where It Lives: A New Approach to Treating AML. Retrieved from http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/819764.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Associate Professor, Physiology and Cellular Biophysics, Columbia University.

[2] Individual Publication Date: August, 22 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2016 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Ph.D., Cardiff University.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Professor Stavroula Kousteni.

[5] The long term goal is to find out the pathogenesis of degenerative diseases for therapies. The endocrine system is a collection of glands that produces hormones. These hormones regulate numerous bodily processes including metabolism, growth and development, tissue function, sexual function, sleep, and so on. Osteoblasts are cells that form bones. Myelodysplasia (MDS) is the ineffective production of blood cells. Acute myeloid leukemia (AML) is the cancer of blood and bone marrow.

Professor Kousteni’s research has narrowed into the bone-specific hormone osteocalcin, which is transcription-regulated by osteoblast-expressed FoxO1. It became an inference to the osteoblast as an endocrine cell. That is, the bones as the endocrine system. Now, Kousteni looking into the receptor, and other functions and mechanisms, for osteocalcin.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Associate Professor Stavroula Kousteni (Part Three) [Online].August 2016; 11(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-stavroula-kousteni-part-three.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, August 22). An Interview with Associate Professor Stavroula Kousteni (Part Three). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-stavroula-kousteni-part-three.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Associate Professor Stavroula Kousteni (Part Three). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A, August. 2016. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-stavroula-kousteni-part-three>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An Interview with Associate Professor Stavroula Kousteni (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-stavroula-kousteni-part-three.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Associate Professor Stavroula Kousteni (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A (August 2016). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-stavroula-kousteni-part-three.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Associate Professor Stavroula Kousteni (Part Three)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-stavroula-kousteni-part-three>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Associate Professor Stavroula Kousteni (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-stavroula-kousteni-part-three.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Associate Professor Stavroula Kousteni (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11.A (2016):August. 2016. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-stavroula-kousteni-part-three>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Associate Professor Stavroula Kousteni (Part Three) [Internet]. (2016, August); 11(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-stavroula-kousteni-part-three.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2016. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2016-08-15

An Interview with Associate Professor Stavroula Kousteni (Part Two)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 11.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Seven)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: August 15, 2016

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2016

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,612

ISSN 2369-6885

2016-08-07_Jacobsen S.D._An Interview with Associate Professor Stavroula Kousteni.JPG

Abstract

An interview with Associate Professor Stavroula Kousteni. She discusses: tasks and responsibilities with professorship; the Women’s Commission Committee and helping solve women’s problems; greatest emotional struggle in personal and professional life; and skeletal influences on physiological processes.

Keywords: professorship, Stavroula Kousteni, women.

An Interview with Associate Professor Stavroula Kousteni: Associate Professor, Physiology and Cellular Biophysics, Columbia University (Part Two)[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Footnotes throughout the interview, and bibliography and citation style listing after the interview.*

7. You are the Associate Professor in Physiology and Cellular Biophysics at Columbia University. What tasks and responsibilities come with this position? For instance, the training and outside of research.

There is training. A big part is to train students and post-doctoral researchers that come into the lab. It is hands-on training. It is teaching them how to do research, how to recognize problems, what questions to pose, how to form hypotheses, and then what is very important is how to read the results.

People can look at the same set of results and derive different interpretations. You can look at the result. You can make the result fit the hypothesis. Or even if the experiment didn’t work, you can see is that it doesn’t fit the hypothesis. But if you look at your results, you can see hidden things. This is my favourite part. I take the raw data – everybody’s raw data. They do an assay at the spectrophotometer.

They generate numbers, numbers, numbers, numbers. I look at the numbers in groups. I can look at them for days sometimes, especially when something does not exactly fit. When you do that, you can see connections that you did not expect were there. You can see possibilities that can change your hypotheses to a greater or lesser extent, and often to more exciting directions.  I tell my trainees: keep your eyes and minds open to discover new connections. In the past, I had people in the lab say, “This is not possible.”

When that new “that” was looking at them straight in the eye, I told them that this is not the place for them. If I cannot teach you that many things are possible, then this is not the place for you. Another part of my training responsibilities is to teach in courses that are run from different programs and departments. Those are different training program supported by the different Institutes of the National Institutes of Health (NIH).

I co-direct one of those programs. An endocrinology training grant that is supported by the NIDDK. It is a grant from the NIH. It has a specific fellowship for pre-docs and post-docs. So, the program tries to place them, support them with money, train them in endocrinology – a holistic view. Then there are the institutional groups we serve. For instance, I have been part of a task force with the aim to improve quality of life, communications, and working environment at the Campus.

I sat with a group of investigators and administrators. Our task was to define what areas needed to be improved in terms of facilities, provisions like childcare, and internships for older kids. Also, I serve on the senate for the Women’s Commission Committee. It is looking into identifying and resolving women’s issues, and to promote their recognition and opportunities in the university.

8. With regards to the Women’s Commission Committee, and women’s concerns and issues in the university, what are those? How can individuals, groups such as the commission or other groups in the university and other institutions solve those problems?

That women are able to perform their work with the same provisions, opportunities, and recognition as their male colleagues at the equal level. During the last few years, the university has made big steps towards this direction. More Deans and Center Directors are women than 5 years ago. Also, there are departments such as the Department of Physiology and Cellular Biophysics, the Department of Human Genetics and Development, that by looking at their faculty and faculty positions one can see that they are very supportive of women faculty. We are on a good track.

9. What seems like the greatest emotional struggle in professional or personal life?

First, in professional life, one of my struggles comes with the nature of our work. Lab trainees eventually complete their training cycle, close their project, publish, and move on to the next stage of their career.  It is an emotional struggle to lose good people among them. Imagine, you work for years to build a team and then every few years need to rebuild it. Sometimes, it feels like a wave when people leave together. Others join at the same time. Emotionally and practically, it is demanding. It takes skill, effort, and time to re-establish relationships and re-harmonize the lab functions.

The second struggle in professional life is funding. Running a lab is similar to running a small company because we need to continuously generate funds. At these times, as an investigator, you need to be resilient with the difficulties in obtaining NIH funding. To get funded, an investigator has to submit a project proposal that is reviewed by a scientific panel with relevant expertise put together by NIH officers.

In this process, we are effectively told whether what we do or propose to do has merit or not, if it is worth or not. This is an exercise in resilience. It’s a criticism of your ideas and approach. If you don’t get it in the end, you have to be able to say, “I’ll move on and put in another application.” Since NIH funding is limited now, this laborious process can be repeated several times and it hits success.

In personal life, I would say how to bring up my kids. That is the most emotionally intense experience for me.

10. How so?

In fact, it’s a challenge. It was a struggle because I spent a lot of time working rather than seeing them growing up. However, I realized the things that I could offer and teach them by behaviour, experience, and by being satisfied and fulfilled from my work. Those made the compromise worthwhile. It is a challenge considering that my knowledge and experiences go into it.

I have so many different cultures in me – growing up in one country and moving into another one while meeting so many people with different backgrounds and religious beliefs. I am a scientist and am used to observing. I am used to abstracting my ideas to construct rational lines of thinking of hypotheses and conclusions. I use all these expertise as way of teaching them how to be decent and inspired people. All of my energy outside work goes there. This effort is full of emotional charge for me. I want to help them understand how important it is to ask for things in life, how important it is to be inspired in life, and how important it is to have many experiences.

11. You have moderate representation in the media.[5],[6],[7],[8] The reports covered the research on Acute Myeloid Leukemia (AML). Your main research might be summarized as “[skeletal] functions in metabolism and hematopoiesis.”[9] It is a comprehensive research program with a distinct focus.[10] Let’s explore some of this research in-depth through some queries to you: what are the general influences of the skeleton on various physiological processes?

I was not satisfied looking at bone only as bone. For me, it was more exciting to understand how different organs interact with each other. I always wanted to enter the bone field. I was able to achieve that when I became an independent investigator. I want to know how these organ interactions maintain health. Normal every day physiological processes. This is alongside my interest in hematopoiesis and cancer. My work with Ellin and Azra made me focus to myeloid malignancies.

We started a project in the lab that was looking at simple things – to see if the skeleton and the bone-forming cells have any way of interacting or influencing leukemia. As we started doing the experiments, we realized that it did. There are signalling pathways that are triggered from osteoblasts that promote or halt the progress of leukemia. We started working on the pathways. As we were going forward, we asked whether there are any genetic differences. For example, mutations in osteoblasts that would not influence the progression of the disease alone, but could be as important as inducing it or altering its course.

That was much more far reaching because these two cell types – the leukemia cells and osteoblasts – come from different lineages. It was not thought that one could influence the fate of the other. The idea of a cell outside the hematopoietic lineage affecting myeloid malignancies was starting to surface. I decided to look extensively into it at that point. We examined a particular mouse model with a mutation on a protein that we thought could be a common link between hematopoiesis and osteoblast functions.

We found that when this mutation was present only in osteoblasts, at least in mice. It was by itself adequate to trigger the development of MDS. Then the disease quickly progresses into myeloid leukemia with all of its features of AML. If you take these bone marrow cells from these mice and transplant them into mice mouse, the healthy mice will also develop AML. With the help of Azra and Ellin, we screened a large cohort of patients with MDS and AML. To this time, we have screened 350 people, patients. We were interested to see if an AML inducing pathway like this was active in the osteoblasts of patients with MDS or AML.

We found that 30-35% of these patients had this pathway active, which suggested that it might be inducing AML in humans. We knew the signal transmitted from the osteoblast to the hematopoietic cell. It was turning this cell into a leukemic one. That meant that if we could block it, then we could block the disease. This was exciting because it could be a new means of dealing with MDS and AML. We would be targeting a leukemic signal originating from a cell (the osteoblast) that is stable, has a stable function, and does not change identity.

That is unlike leukemia cells. Those tend to accumulate different mutations or mutations develop mutations that make them resistant to chemotherapy or targeted treatments. We did this experiment in mice too. We used an antibody that blocked the pathway in osteoblasts. By doing that, it blocked the disease in mice. At this time, we are looking at other molecules and mutations in osteoblasts that may affect MDS and AML progression.

We are looking at interactive molecules. What is it that the osteoblast secretes to protect from that leukemia cell? So, we’re piercing the pathway together. We are trying to learn how these cells communicate, how you can interfere in these communication signals to take advantage of them – of one signal or the other – and make the bone a place that myeloid dysplasia can’t grow.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Associate Professor, Physiology and Cellular Biophysics, Columbia University.

[2] Individual Publication Date: August 15, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2016 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Ph.D., Cardiff University.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Professor Stavroula Kousteni.

[5] Columbia University Medical Center. (2014, January 22). Potential Drug Target Found for Common Blood Cancer. Retrieved from http://www.dddmag.com/news/2014/01/potential-drug-target-found-common-blood-cancer.

[6] Waknine, Y. (2014, January 27). Hit the Cancer Where It Lives: A New Approach to Treating AML. Retrieved from http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/819764.

[7] Columbia University Medical Center. (2014, January 21). Common Blood Cancer May Be Initiated by Single Mutation in Bone Cells. Retrieved from http://newsroom.cumc.columbia.edu/blog/2014/01/21/common-blood-cancer-may-initiated-single-mutation-bone-cells/.

[8] News-Medical.Net. (2014, January 21). Mutation in bone cells may cause acute myeloid leukemia: Study. Retrieved from http://www.news-medical.net/news/20140121/Mutation-in-bone-cells-may-cause-acute-myeloid-leukemia-Study.aspx.

[9] Columbia University. (2016). Kousteni, Stavroula, Ph.D. Retrieved from http://www.physiology.columbia.edu/Stavroula.html.

[10] Kousteni, Stavroula, Ph.D. (2016) states:

Research Activities

The purpose of the research in my laboratory is to understand the influence of the skeleton on various physiological processes. The long term goal is to uncover the pathogenesis of degenerative diseases and to suggest novel and adapted therapies for them. Along these lines we are studying the function of bone as an endocrine organ regulating glucose metabolism and energy homeostasis and examining the role of osteoblasts in hematopoiesis with particular emphasis in myelodysplasia (MDS) and acute myeloid leukemia (AML).

Bone as an endocrine organ

Osteoblasts, the bone forming cells, have been shown previously to influence glucose metabolism through the secretion of a bone-specific hormone, osteocalcin. We found that the activity of osteocalcin is regulated transcriptionally by osteoblast-expressed FoxO1. These findings raised for us the question of the nature of the osteoblast as an endocrine cell, and more specifically whether it secretes other hormones regulating any aspect of energy metabolism. Using a genetic approach to this problem we identified a second osteoblast-specific hormone that affects glucose metabolism and insulin secretion. We are currently expanding this work, searching for its receptor and for other functions and mechanisms of action exerted by this hormone.

Detecting Interactions between Osteoblasts and Leukemia Blasts 

In current work, our lab has discovered a function of the skeleton, as an inducer of leukemogenesis. We identified a mutation in the osteoblast that disrupts hematopoiesis leading to leukemogenic transformation of hematopoietic stem cells (HSCs) and establishment of MDS progressing to AML. The same mutation and signaling pathway were identified in more than a third of patients with MDS and AML. We have also found that osteoblasts affect engraftment of leukemia blasts. We are currently characterizing the signaling pathway that mediates these actions. This work may provide a rationale for using means to manipulate the osteoblast to make the hematopoietic niche hostile to residual leukemia cells. 

Columbia University. (2016). Kousteni, Stavroula, Ph.D. Retrieved from http://www.physiology.columbia.edu/Stavroula.html.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Associate Professor Stavroula Kousteni (Part Two) [Online].August 2016; 11(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-stavroula-kousteni-part-two.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, August 15). An Interview with Associate Professor Stavroula Kousteni (Part Two). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-stavroula-kousteni-part-two.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Associate Professor Stavroula Kousteni (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A, August. 2016. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-stavroula-kousteni-part-two>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An Interview with Associate Professor Stavroula Kousteni (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-stavroula-kousteni-part-two.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Associate Professor Stavroula Kousteni (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A (August 2016). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-stavroula-kousteni-part-two.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Associate Professor Stavroula Kousteni (Part Two)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-stavroula-kousteni-part-two>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Associate Professor Stavroula Kousteni (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-stavroula-kousteni-part-two.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Associate Professor Stavroula Kousteni (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11.A (2016):August. 2016. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-stavroula-kousteni-part-two>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Associate Professor Stavroula Kousteni (Part Two) [Internet]. (2016, August); 11(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-stavroula-kousteni-part-two.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2016. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2016-08-08

An Interview with Associate Professor Stavroula Kousteni (Part One)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 11.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Seven)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: August 8, 2016

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2016

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,500

ISSN 2369-6885

2016-08-07_Jacobsen S.D._An Interview with Associate Professor Stavroula Kousteni.JPG

Abstract

An interview with Associate Professor Stavroula Kousteni. She discusses: familial geographic, cultural, and linguistic background; familial background influence on her; ancient and modern Greek texts that influenced her; reference to 1984; origination of interest in medicine; and interest in pathology and cell biology in particular.

Keywords: 1984, cell biology, medicine, pathology, Stavroula Kousteni.

An Interview with Associate Professor Stavroula Kousteni: Associate Professor, Physiology and Cellular Biophysics, Columbia University[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Footnotes throughout the interview and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. In terms of geography, culture, and language, where does your family background reside?

I was born in Athens, Greece until I went to college. It was in a city to the South on the Peloponnese. It’s called Patras, which is a port city. You need to take a boat if you want to travel from Greece to Italy. I was born in Athens. However, my culture is influenced by the island where my mother comes from, an island in the Dodecanese (the Twelve Islands), called Karpathos.

It is located between Rhodes and Crete. It is one of the most traditional islands in Greece. Its society is to a large extent governed by women. It has extremely strong roles for women in and outside the family. It has a culture that is friendly to people and celebratory of life. For example, every important event in the life of any person, whether it is engagement, marriage, or death, is usually communicated by a type of on-the-moment song, which is sung in the tune of the local instruments.

It is a way of living an emotionally intense and authentic life. It brings communication to a different level. It makes relationships between families closer. The villages on the island are small. Everyone is a ‘relative’. Many people moved to Athens after the war, formed an association, and bought a lot in the outskirts of Athens in a suburb at the North. Also, the land was divided among families who built houses and apartment buildings on it.

We lived in Karpathos. I grew in a very close, rich, and emotional community. It had a tremendous effect in my view of life. It’s my roots. It’s the place that gives me strength, sense of value, and teaches enjoyment and appreciation of life. I left this place to do a B.Sc. in Chemistry at the University of Patras in Greece. After that, I moved to the U.K. to University of Cardiff where I did my Ph.D. and a postdoctoral fellowship.

2. With respect to the “roots,” how did this familial background influence you?

First, it strengthened me as a woman in professional activities and family life. It was natural. It was expected that I would guide and create. Second, it taught me to form strong connections with an extended group of people. In early life, those were extended family. Cousins that were cousins of my cousins. To me, they were still cousins (!). It was a strong family bond that made us treat each other as brothers and sisters. When I left Greece, I sought to create a similar group of extended family.

Not friends alone. They were family by choice with a strong and supportive relationship. Third, it implanted a sense of optimism. So, I could crawl up unwavering. Even in the blackest days, when I really don’t want to know anything about still surviving (I would laugh here), I can get up. Also, the ways to express myself and celebrate life. Can you imagine if your sister is getting married and you start singing about what happened in her life? What happened in her past? What you hope for her? Most people sing and cry. However, a celebration of the life of the person and the relationship with them.

My personality and life were influenced by high school in Greece. High school is from grade 7 to grade 12. I took an exam. I was accepted to one of the academically prestigious schools called Anavryta. I have been one of those lucky people who knew very early. I wanted to do biomedical research. I was fascinated by science.

I have always been interested in biology, chemistry, and physics. However, I did not take these subjects in school. I took a rare and in-depth training in humanities and language arts, analysis of texts, Ancient Greek, Greek, new works of Greek authors, and world history. My mind learned to function through these years in that school. My language teachers were inspiring. They inspired us to think deep, analyze what we read, what we write, and how we think about life. That has shaped the way I see everything. It has shaped my style of science. As well, my will to be open-minded to understand different perspectives.

3. You mentioned Ancient Greek texts and some modern Greek texts were of influence for you. What were some of those?

Once we start learning Ancient Greek in 6th grade, we read a translation of The Iliad and The Odyssey. A smart way to introduce us to the Ancient Greek world since the main interest was to teach us the concepts, the notions, the intrigues, the emotional relationships, the political situations, and so on, behind these works. Also, we were taught the “Herodotus Tales.” Herodotus was born in Halicarnassus, in Asia Minor, in the fifth century B.C. and has been called the ‘Father of History’, because he wrote the first comprehensive attempt at secular narrative history, considered the starting point of Western historical writing.

We were immersed in stories about Persian Wars, Babylon, Egypt, and Thrace. Also, we read and analyzed texts from Socrates. I was stunned to find ancient Greek education in the United States. For a couple of months, we toured Columbia University for my son’s college visit. He was told that independent of the direction taken. All first year students across different courses and programs are taught The Iliad. (Laughs). Then we re-read most of them in Ancient Greek, along with Thucydides “History of the Peloponnesian War” that chronicled 30 years of war between Athens and Sparta.

Ancient Greek is a complex language. As a Greek, you can recognize several words, but the syntax in intricate and often hard put into context. In Modern Greek, we read a lot of poetry, the works of Odysseus Elytis, Konstantinos Kavafys, Giorgos Seferis. One of the favorite authors analyzed in detail was Antonis Samarakis, who in his writing put a lot of emphasis in the person as an individual. On the thinking process, the person’s thinking process can change due to events in that person’s life. We read his masterpiece “The Flaw,” which was written in 1965. It is eerily prophetic of the military dictatorship that followed in Greece

4. It’s like 1984. It’s based on events, but in a future time.

It is predictive of the future. It tells the story of a suspect detained in an unspecified police state. At an unspecified time, it examines the relationship between what seems to be a leftist, or communist perhaps captive, and his interrogator and detainer. Who is taking him to whoever he needs to go, the plan is devised by the state to make him attempt to escape, thereby proving his guilt, or confess to his anti-state crimes under interrogation. The flaw is the plan’s failure to allow for the human factor, the fellow-feeling that the interrogator develops for the suspect during their time together.

The captive and the interrogator become harmonized with each other. As the relationship develops, as they relate things more intimate to them, the hesitation and awkwardness develops because part of it is asking, “How much of this relationship is true? How much is one trying to manipulate the other?” We spent a lot of time analyzing how the protagonists express themselves in their relationships.

5. Where did interest in medicine in general originate for you?

When I was in elementary school, I wanted to be an astronaut, which is funny. However, when I finished wanting to be an astronaut, I wanted to be in medicine. I had an inspiration growing up. A great aunt, she was a dentist. For a woman in Greece to be a dentist and intellectual immediately after World War II, she was an admirably accomplished woman. I was fascinated by her dynamism. I was fascinated by the humanism of medicine. I saw that through her. However, I was  thinking, “For me, this is ot enough.”

I could see by talking with her, reading newspapers, and magazines. There were many incurable diseases. My focus shifted into understanding how it works. How do people get sick? How does disease start? How can disease be treated?  This is when my interest in cancer developed too. Cancer is such a complex multifactorial and ever-changing disease. How does it all happen? Suddenly, I remember visiting the Department of Biology in Athens in 8th grade. When we finished going through the labs, I thought, “This is what I want to do.” I want to do research. I want to do biology-oriented research.

I was lucky. It is hard to make a decision for what you want to do for the rest of your life when you are an adolescent. Colleges in Europe do not offer the range, diversity, and combinations in courses of US colleges. In Europe, you have to choose a specialty at 18 years old. So, I was lucky. I knew in 8th grade. Those were the years we read about major DNA discoveries, breakthroughs in molecular biology, manipulating the genome in model organisms, sheep (Dolly), and later mice. All of these discoveries seemed amazing to me. The possibilities seemed endless.

You can modify the DNA, delete parts of it, or edit it. You do this to ask questions about the function of specific genes in disease and in physiology. You can look inside the cells at molecules that communicate messages. In the early 80s, it was not possible to get trained in it in Greece. I decided to apply and was accepted in the Department of Chemistry in Patras University. It was a new Department. Then and now, it has an excellent teaching faculty. The only one with a good section in Biochemistry. Part of the section in biochemistry had a course in molecular Biology, it was a dream for me. I knew from that early 8th grade visit to the Department of Biology. I would have to go abroad to complete my studies and to do research. I could not wait to do so.

6. You found the real interest in medicine and chemistry, and not in being an astronaut…

(Laughs)

…What about pathology and cell biology in particular?

From my point of view, research can be done in two approaches. For one, it can be focused on a particular cell type or organ, which delineates its function and rules (the intracellular, intraorgan mechanisms) that regulate its fate and activity. For another, you can look at this organ from a plane view and study its integration into the whole body, which means the inter-organ communications and the transmitting signals that mediate them. In either case, you can be strictly molecular by staying focused on DNA changes and signaling events, or take a more translational/clinically applied spin by asking, “How do those apply to disease pathogenesis and to disease treatment?”

My scientific journey started with the first approach. It is now encompassing the latest. I entered the field of bone biology in 1999. I started by asking very cell focused questions: How do bone cells function? How do they maintain health and survival? How do they function to keep making bone or to resorb bone? How is this process regulated? I was looking at the specific cellular mechanism of the 3 different types of bone cells: 1) osteoblast that make bone, 2) osteoclasts that resorb bone, and 3) osteocytes that are entombed in the mineralizing of the matrix and communicate mechanical signals.

This is the more isolated view of an organ. I looked at bone as something more than an isolated island within the body. I look at it as an organ that should interact with other organs. We are used to thinking of the skeleton as a mechanical scaffold whose role is to help us grow, move around, and withstand the mechanical forces of daily life. This is one of its most amazing functions that it impressively fulfills by achieving complete renewal every 10 years. Every 10 years we have a new skeleton. However, it is not the only one. As the largest organ in the body, it makes sense that there are other roles.

I was interested in finding those. Also, I was interested in understanding how it interacts with other organs to regulate either normal physiological processes in a healthy organism or to regulate disease. My main interest is in disease pathogenesis. Where does disease start? What is the imbalance that makes a disease manifest? In following this approach, I have come to a point where I often say that I run a ‘schizophrenic’ lab. It deals with bone, but many other directions too. One direction is an unintended one. I had not envisioned it. It was something brought on by research.

When I moved to Columbia University in 2006, my lab was looking at a protein, FoxO1, which regulates bone mass in response to oxidative stress. In basic research, if you want to ask, “How does a protein work? Is its function important for a specific tissue?” You inactivate (knockout) the gene that makes the protein in mice and in this tissue. When we knocked out FoxO1 from bone and specifically osteoblasts, we created mutant mice that had a phenotype unrelated to bone mass. They had low blood glucose levels, high insulin levels, high glucose tolerance, which means that if they ate more and high fat food they did not gain weight.

In short, inactivation of a protein expressed in bone cells led in mice led to improved glucose metabolism. We followed this line of research and have subsequently generated several other genetic mouse models that serve to examine role of hormones produces by bone cells in the regulation of different aspects of energy metabolism. Half of my lab is working on these projects. The other half of the lab follows projects related to my fascination with cancer. I wanted to do this research for many, many years. Before I became an independent investigator, I was interested in hematological cancers. Because they are born, live, and thrive in the bone marrow within the bone, where hematopoiesis occurs and goes awry in such cancers, I was a hesitant in entering this vast field.

We started, shyly and cautiously, with an M.D. Ph.D. student, who did some of our initial experiments looking at how osteoblasts affect hematopoiesis. One day, an M.D. and clinical investigator Dr. Ellin Berman, from Memorial Sloan Kettering, met with me and asked if I would be interested to look whether osteoblasts affect leukemia blasts. I was thrilled. We started working on a small focused project with limited funding. Very soon Dr. Azra Raza, the head of the MDS Center at Columbia University and an amazing investigator, joined in these studies, which flourished, expanded, and drafted my new scientific identity: the study of the role of bone cells in the development of MDS and AML.

This line of research is close to my heart. An exciting part of our work is that that we are looking at MDS and AML from a different point of view. Traditionally, investigators look at hematological diseases like myeloid leukemia, myeloid dysplasia as dysregulations, genetic modifications, and mutations. All occurring in hematopoietic cells. These dysregulated cells turn malignant. We look at the disease from the point of view of completely different cells. They are not sisters, brothers, or parents of hematopoietic cells. They belong to a parallel lineage.

They are osteoblasts. They are supposed to originate from a distinct ancestor, which is different than the hematopoietic cells. We look at how osteoblasts affect the induction of myeloid malignancies. Their engraftment or progression. It is a new way to look at pathogenesis, or even treatment of MDS and AML. In fact, we found a different source of MDS and AML pathogenesis one that originates from the osteoblast. A cell outside the hematopoietic lineage. This new mechanism might hold a new promise for treatment because the osteoblasts might be a more amenable target that an AML or MDS cell.

Those malignant cells change identity constantly by accumulating new mutations or developing new protective mechanisms to outgrow treatments. Chemotherapy and other drugs that target specific mutations can be overcome by the appearance of new clones. These new clones arise or the clones become resistant. Our idea is that if you target a cell that is important for the induction of the disease and its progression, but that cell does not change its identity. You can block the signal of the cell, and then have another means to block leukemia. This research is inspiring and consuming me at the same time, not only by the thrill of the discoveries of basic science but because of its closeness to such devastating human diseases and its potential impact.

I am further influenced to my core by the work of my MD collaborators, especially Azra and Ellin. They are the closest ones to me and to my work. Often, I talk to them. I see the sensitivity with which they take care of their patients. Also, their relentless and uncompromising daily fight to save them. Over and over again, it is an inspiring fight to witness. It puts a human and humane face to the research. I can associate our work in the lab with the desired and hoped for outcome: to discover so as to treat. This is very personal and intense. I can say this approach increases personal responsibility and inspiration at the same time.

I share this view this feeling, responsibility, and try to pass them onto and to inspire my students, post-docs, and associate researcher scientists. I tell them how extremely privileged we are as researchers and as a basic science lab to have access to and to be entrusted at the same time with patient samples for our research. That we are lucky to have collaborators that have been generous in sharing their human samples with us.

It permits us to do meaningful research. Every time, we receive them, from Azra or Ellin, I say, “You should not sleep at night. You should be thankful every night that you were able to get these people’s cells. You had better do something worthwhile with them because to them it is a matter of life or death.” They hear this at least once a month. Or, every time that we get new samples. That’s how I feel about it. I committed, serious, and grateful to the work in the lab.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Associate Professor, Physiology and Cellular Biophysics, Columbia University.

[2] Individual Publication Date: August 8, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2016 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Ph.D., Cardiff University.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Professor Stavroula Kousteni.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Associate Professor Stavroula Kousteni (Part One) [Online].August 2016; 11(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-stavroula-kousteni-part-one.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, August 8). An Interview with Associate Professor Stavroula Kousteni (Part One). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-stavroula-kousteni-part-one.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Associate Professor Stavroula Kousteni (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A, August. 2016. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-stavroula-kousteni-part-one>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An Interview with Associate Professor Stavroula Kousteni (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-stavroula-kousteni-part-one.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Associate Professor Stavroula Kousteni (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A (August 2016). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-stavroula-kousteni-part-one.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Associate Professor Stavroula Kousteni (Part One)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-stavroula-kousteni-part-one>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Associate Professor Stavroula Kousteni (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-stavroula-kousteni-part-one.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Associate Professor Stavroula Kousteni (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11.A (2016):August. 2016. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-stavroula-kousteni-part-one>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Associate Professor Stavroula Kousteni (Part One) [Internet]. (2016, August); 11(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-stavroula-kousteni-part-one.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2016. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2016-08-01

An Interview with Anand Jain (Part Four)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 11.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Seven)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: August 1, 2016

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2016

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,414

ISSN 2369-6885

Anand Jain.jpg

Abstract

An interview with Anand Jain. He discusses: elaboration on the About (2015); gods in an eternal universe (with souls) subject to the law of Karma; human beings able to reincarnate as gods themselves; an atheistic element to Jainism; purpose of prayer; uniting part of Jainism among Jains; Jain view of wellbeing; and long-term plans of the Jain Center of British Columbia.

Keywords: Anand Jain, British Columbia, Founder, Jain, Preserver, Sustainer.

An Interview with Anand Jain: Founder, and “Preserver and Sustainer,” Jain Centre of British Columbia (Part Four)[1],[2],[3]

*Footnotes throughout the interview and citation style listing after the interview.*

27. About (2015) concludes:

The main order of Dharma was initially established by the 14th Manu, namely Lord Rishabhdev millennium years ago. One can find ample of literature on Lord Rishabhdev in Vedas and Bhagvatam. Jainism has 24 Thirthankars who are ford makers, starting from Lord Rishabhdev being the first and Lord Mahavir, who was born 2,612 years ago, being the last.[4]

Please elaborate, what does this mean in full?[5]

Under this question, it says that before the 14th Manu, there was a different order of subsistence in the subcontinent and 14th Manu taught the masses how to fill the land for food and other needs of subsistence.

Most importantly, in the new Era, Rishabdev emphasized the need of good Karmas to attain Salvation and therefore, he taught the basic ethics of non-violence and mutual co-existence with one’s neighbour, i.e., called Parasper Upagraho Jivanam meaning that we all can exist side by side and are interdependent on each other in a society. Therefore, peaceful co-existence was the primary teaching along with non-violence.

Later on, all remaining 23 Tirthankars followed the same path and depth and attained salvation. This ethical teaching became a religion which was only a religion (Duty) and when the other religions floated, the word JAIN was coined; meaning who are victorious on one-self; or meaning who have won over one’s desires and follow the ethical path of non-violence in all walks of life.

28. In the foundational metaphysics of Jainism, five ideas form its base, namely: “souls (jiva), matter (pudgala), motion (dharma), rest (adharma), space (akasa), and time (kala).”[6] Matter and souls separate in a dualistic philosophy, complete division between them, and a total denial of one God sovereign over all in the operations of the world: its creation, operation, or dissolution. Finite gods exist with subjection to the law of Karma.[7] The universe, or the world, remains eternal too.[8] How are gods in an eternal universe (with souls) subject to the law of Karma?[9]

The foundational metaphysics of Jainism simply states how the universe works and there is no creator, sustainer and destroyer. The natural forces enumerated here propel the world, there is no other force behind it. Even present day modern science concurs with Jainism’s contentions. Hence, we call Jainism a Scientific Religion.

Since Jainism has no notion of God, the word God does not come into question; therefore, there is no question of human beings incarnating as Gods.

29. Does this leave the possibility for human beings to reincarnate as gods themselves?

Good question, actually, Alexander the Great came to India he saw some of the Jain monks sitting on dried bark, and basking in the Sun. And they were naked. He went to the emissaries and said, “Go to them and tell them I will give them lots of wealth.” The monks said to the emissaries, “Go to your leader and tell them, it’s okay, go back and say we don’t need it.” Alexander the Great was surprised thinking, “Who are these people?”

He came and had an audience with the head man, and the mans aid, “Look, you have done a lot of cruel things. You have looted and killed a lot of people. Your end is near. I can see it on your forehead.” Alexander said, “I beg you to give us one of your saints that I can bring t Athens.” He brought one of the saints, and he passed away, and the saint told his minister, “Take his hands outside of the coffin so that people can see and that you cannot take anything with you. You go empty-handed. His footprints were still there.”

They learn from India.

In Jainism, there is no such word as INCARNATION. Yes, there is a word called transmigration; and once a soul is born as human, he has to work hard on the Jain ethics to attain Godhood.

Again, this entity is not the creator, sustainer and destroyer; but simply attainer of Salvation, thus ceasing the cycle of birth, old-age and death.

30. According to the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy in Language and Testimony in Classical Indian Philosophy: General philosophical approaches to the status of Vedic scriptures (2014), Jainism rejects the notion of God, where it states:

The Buddhist and the Jain traditions also rejected the notion of God, and hence any claim that the Vedas were words of God, and hence authoritative, was not acceptable to them. On the other hand, the Jain and the Buddhist traditions claimed that their leading spiritual teachers like Mahāvīra and Buddha were omniscient (sarvajña) and were compassionate toward humanity at large, and hence their words were claimed to be authoritative… The Mīmāṃsakas accepted the arguments of the Buddhists and the Jains that one need not accept the notion of a creator-controller God…The Mīmāṃsā conceives of an unbroken and beginningless Vedic tradition. No man or God can be considered to be the very first teacher of the Veda or the first receiver of it, because the world is beginningless. It is conceivable that, just as at present, there have always been teachers teaching and students studying the Veda. For the Mīmāṃsakas, the Vedas are not words of God. In this view, they seem to accept the Buddhist and the Jain critique of the notion of God. There is no need to assume God. Not only is there no need to assume that God was the author of the Vedas, there is no need to assume a God at all. God is not required as a Creator, for the universe was never created. Nor is God required as the Dispenser of Justice, for karman brings its own fruits. And one does not need God as the author of the Vedas, since they are eternal and uncreated to begin with.[10]

Mark Owen Webb notes the same.[11] When individuals outside, or even inside, of Jainism perceive an “atheistic” element to its conceptualization of the universe, what does this mean in precise terms?[12],[13]

All that is mentioned in your other question is true and repeats what Jainism says.

In Jainism, the followers give the highest respect to all Tirthankars only for their highest ethical teachings and sometimes call them Bhagavan or God in name only. A learned Jain would only call them Tirthankar, meaning (A teacher who teachers the art of crossing the worldly ocean to attain salvation to the masses and also crosses himself and attain salvation).

31. What purpose does prayer serve to individuals and groups of Jains in their community?[14]

The prayers remind us and inculcate the finest qualities possessed by Tirthankars while they were on the path of austerity. One must bear in mind that Jainism, Tirthankars have attained salvation and therefore, are detached from the worldly affairs. Thus, they are unable to shower any gifts or curse us.

32. With respect to orthodox and non-orthodox divisions and sects, what component of the complete Jain philosophy and life practice produces the greatest division among Jains?[15],[16],[17],[18],[19]

The practice of rituals and limits of possessions by Monks and laymen. Also, the degree of severity in following daily life of Monks; namely, Skyclad’s highest monk will sleep on the floor, takes a vow, if certain conditions occur, only then he will accept food from the household that practice the cooking of food according to strict Jain principles and cleanliness. He takes his food in forming a bowl with his two hands, once only in 24 hours, that also goes for water. If and when his vow does not match, he goes without food until the next day.

Secondly, Skyclads still fully believe in the scriptures and practices laid down by all Tirthankars, and have not added or subtracted any new ideas.

33. What most unites Jains?[20]

The vegetarianism, worship of the Tirthankars, reverence for all kinds of lives and a sernee, peaceful, honest, and sincere life style in daily business life.

34. Jains believe in concern for the health and welfare, or the wellbeing, of the universe, have emphasis on “three jewels”: right belief, right knowledge, and right conduct, have belief in reincarnation, ground themselves in self-help or destitution of assistance from the gods – or God – for human beings, believe in souls for animals, plants, and human beings, believe in the need for consideration of equal compassion, respect, and value for these souls, and aim for the elimination of Karma.[21],[22] How does wellbeing of the universe, self-help devoid of the gods’ or God’s assistance, existence of the soul in everything, its reincarnation in novel forms, and ethical requisite for compassion, respect, and value for the souls themselves, interrelate in this Jain conception of the biosphere, human beings, and their mutual interrelationship with the universe?[23]

All that said points to respect for the environment. Jainism has taught to be frugal in using water; carefully and cautiously excavating and tilling land; not even moving your body in the air without any reason. All it means limiting harm to the environment.

35. What are the long-term plans of the Jain Center of British Columbia?[24]

Long-term plan for the Jain Centre of BC is to provide a conducive, friendly and welcoming atmosphere for all; visiting Monks and scholars; a school for the youngsters.

Jains do not believe in proselytizing, yet anyone willing to learn and practice Jain philosophy is warmly welcome. Jainism is not a caste-based religion. It is a practice-based religion.

Thank you for your time, Mr. Jain.

I feel you are a professional, doing your duty very well, have taken your time to read all of the scriptures, and were so brave to form these questions for me, and you spent your time. I am retired. I am happy. I don’t worry about going to the office or money. God has given me more than enough. So I thank you very much because that way through your hard work and publishing people will have ideas about Jainism. And, hopefully, they like it, and it makes their lives better. Thank you very much.

Bibliography

  1. BBC UK. (2014). Jainism at a Glance. Retrieved from http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/jainism/ataglance/glance.shtml.
  2. Deshpande, M. (2014). Language and Testimony in Classical Indian Philosophy. Retrieved from http://plato.stanford.edu/archives/fall2014/entries/language-india/.
  3. Encyclopedia Britannica. (2016). InEncyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com.
  4. Gandhi, M. (2013, April 30). Let us Celebrate Mahavir Jayanti on April 23, 2013. Retrieved from http://jaincenterbc.org/documents/Article%20by%20Mrs.%20Maneka%20Gandhi.pdf.
  5. JAINS: Federation of Jain Associations in North America. (2015). JAINS: Federation of Jain Associations in North America. Retrieved from http://www.jaina.org/.
  6. Jain, V. (n.d.). President’s Message. Retrieved from http://jaincenterbc.org/president-message/.
  7. Jain Center of British Columbia. (2015). Jain Center of British Columbia. Retrieved from http://jaincenterbc.org/.
  8. Jain Library. (2015). Jain eLibrary. Retrieved from http://www.jainlibrary.org/.
  9. Statistics Canada. (2005, January 25). Population by religion, by province and territory (2001 Census)
    (Alberta, British Columbia, Yukon). Retrieved from http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/demo30c-eng.htm.
  10. Webb, M.O. (n.d.). Jain Philosophy. Retrieved from http://www.iep.utm.edu/jain/.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Founder, and “Preserver and Sustainer.” Jain Centre of British Columbia.

[2] Individual Publication Date: August 1, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2016 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Photograph courtesy of Anand Jain.

[4] Jain Center of British Columbia. (2015). About. Retrieved from http://jaincenterbc.org/about/.

[5] Jain Center of British Columbia. (2015). About. Retrieved from http://jaincenterbc.org/about/.

[6] Webb, M.O. (n.d.). Jain Philosophy. Retrieved from http://www.iep.utm.edu/jain/.

[7] Webb, M.O. (n.d.). Jain Philosophy. Retrieved from http://www.iep.utm.edu/jain/.

[8] Webb, M.O. (n.d.). Jain Philosophy. Retrieved from http://www.iep.utm.edu/jain/.

[9] Webb, M.O. (n.d.). Jain Philosophy. Retrieved from http://www.iep.utm.edu/jain/.

[10] Deshpande, M. (2014). Language and Testimony in Classical Indian Philosophy. Retrieved from http://plato.stanford.edu/archives/fall2014/entries/language-india/.

[11] Webb, M.O. (n.d.). Jain Philosophy. Retrieved from http://www.iep.utm.edu/jain/.

[12] Deshpande, M. (2014). Language and Testimony in Classical Indian Philosophy. Retrieved from http://plato.stanford.edu/archives/fall2014/entries/language-india/.

[13] Webb, M.O. (n.d.). Jain Philosophy. Retrieved from http://www.iep.utm.edu/jain/.

[14] Jainism. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/Jainism.

[15] Indian philosophy. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/Indian-philosophy.

[16] Jainism. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/Jainism.

[17] Jain Center of British Columbia. (2015). About. Retrieved from http://jaincenterbc.org/about/.

[18] Deshpande, M. (2014). Language and Testimony in Classical Indian Philosophy. Retrieved from http://plato.stanford.edu/archives/fall2014/entries/language-india/.

[19] Webb, M.O. (n.d.). Jain Philosophy. Retrieved from http://www.iep.utm.edu/jain/.

[20] Jainism. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/Jainism.

[21] BBC UK. (2014). Jainism at a Glance. Retrieved from http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/jainism/ataglance/glance.shtml.

[22] karma. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/karma.

[23] karma. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/karma.

[24] Jain Center of British Columbia. (2015). Jain Center of British Columbia. Retrieved from http://jaincenterbc.org/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Anand Jain (Part Four) [Online].August 2016; 11(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-anand-jain-part-four.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, August 1). An Interview with Anand Jain (Part Four). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-anand-jain-part-four.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Anand Jain (Part Four). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A, August. 2016. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-anand-jain-part-four>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An Interview with Anand Jain (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-anand-jain-part-four.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Anand Jain (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A (August 2016). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-anand-jain-part-four.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Anand Jain (Part Four)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-anand-jain-part-four>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Anand Jain (Part Four)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-anand-jain-part-four.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Anand Jain (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11.A (2016):August. 2016. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-anand-jain-part-four>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Anand Jain (Part Four) [Internet]. (2016, August); 11(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-anand-jain-part-four.

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Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2016. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2016-07-22

An Interview with Anand Jain (Part Three)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 11.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Seven)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: July 22, 2016

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2016

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,572

ISSN 2369-6885

Anand Jain.jpg

Abstract

An interview with Anand Jain. He discusses: importance of interfaith dialogue; relationship with Hindus and Buddhists in British Columbia; relationship with Hindus and Buddhists in Canada; relationship with Hindus and Buddhists in the world; “Ahimsa, Aparigraha, and Anekant”; the grounding of the manifestation; Five mahavatras and influence on daily life; Digambras and Svetambras; origination of their division; purpose for monks and nuns in Jainism; and salvation with end result of zero Karma.

Keywords: Anand Jain, British Columbia, Founder, Jain, Preserver, Sustainer.

An Interview with Anand Jain: Founder, and “Preserver and Sustainer.” Jain Centre of British Columbia (Part Three)[1],[2],[3]

*Footnotes throughout the interview and citation style listing after the interview.*

16. What importance comes from interfaith dialogue?[4]

It shows how other religions think about us, other faiths think about us. It is great to shun all of our differences and discuss things – how we can give to the society. And I think this is one way we can mutually get education, and I am the only one that always goes to these events.

I do not deny that it is not easy to take out time, but somehow I look for them, you know.

In this library right here [Simon Fraser University Surrey Campus Library – Scott], I think twice there was a big interfaith conference. I was invited once by the Bahá’í faith. It is a good thing if we can dispel some of the misgivings.

It is enlightening to note that Jainism has always taught to respect the views of other religions. A very amicable relationship exists with both Hindus and the Buddhists.

17.  Jainism exists, in history and in the present, alongside other Indian philosophies and life practices, or religions, such as Hinduism and Buddhism.[5],[6],[7],[8],[9],[10],[11] What relationship exists among the Hindus and Buddhists of British Columbia?[12],[13],[14],[15],[16],[17],[18]

It is not common knowledge that Buddha was a Jain monk for 7 years before devising a middle path for himself called Buddhism.

It is not common knowledge that lineage of most of the Hindu Gods and Jain Tirthankaras are the same. Both share the same family inception and culturally there is hardly a difference.

It is not common knowledge that Hindus and Jains do have interfaith marriages, because our culture is similar. And why not? Like, before and now, people do like to – everybody has their own differences. Even a brother or another have a different ideology, but that does not mean you can sit together and eat, on the other hand, we have an advantage because other religions have learned non-violence and vegetarianism from the Jains. Come to think of it, one of the Hindu universities’ chancellor’s once said that to become a good Hindu you have to be a Jain first.

We wish we all continue to do the same. Only then we can make this world a beautiful place to live other than you can see now, or done 15 years ago.

I wrote a poem in Hindi, and I predicted that the culprit or the perpetrator would survive, and you could see a few years after what happened. So those are the thoughts.

18.  What about Canada?[19],[20],[21],[22],[23],[24],[25]

It is very amicable, the relationship, in Canada.

19. . How about the world?[26],[27],[28],[29],[30],[31],[32]

It is a very amicable, the relationship, in the whole world.

20. What does each principle of “Ahimsa, Aparigraha, and Anekant” mean to the Jain community – in British Columbia and its global manifestation?[33],[34],[35],[36]

Ahimsa is non-injury to any being by way of thoughts, speech and actions. Aparigraha simply means limit your needs, your possessions, let it be available for others, and keep only what you need.

If you keep it to yourself, it will degenerate itself, it will go moldy, or go out of fashion, so why do you need to hold it? Let go, you will have better sleep. That’s how our saints live. They do not even have clothes or bowls. They make a bowl by clutching their two hands together, and they take food once in 24 hours, and he thinks a person in a black jacket and blonde hair (referring to me – Scott) should meet him and then he should eat.

Anekant means tolerance of all kinds of views of all kinds of faiths. Never say that you are the one who is always right. Different people think differently, so we should not be criticizing them and this is not one. Truth is not one-sided, and you are not the contender that I am the only one. Others are, and there are many ways to look at it. It is very intricate. There are seven sides that you have to apply on all subjects, and only then do you come to the truth. Anekant is about multiple states, multiple views.

Non-violence, non-possession. Jainism also says there are the same rules with the saints. The ones who are away from the worldly life have stern rules. And then the household owners can then devolve them to their own level, and then they can increase them to their own level in degrees. So those are the three explanations that are important for those things.

21. What grounds these principles?[37],[38],[39],[40]

Since religion in Jainism is a way of life, a rational belief system; a yearning desire for salvation, these principles guide our total behaviour.

One must understand that Jainism is the only religion that is not organized.

22. Five mahavatras, or great vows, exist in Jainism: ahimsa or non-violence – the supreme principle, “non-attachment to possessions, not lying, not stealing, and sexual restraint.”[41],[42] Duly note, the emphasis on restraint in contrast with aid, or encouragement, with the prefix “non-.”[43],[44] How do these influence daily, mundane, life for a Jain?[45],[46]

No doubt that a child and adolescent would only observe and imitate what the parents and the community members do in daily life. Accordingly, these five principles are very dead to all Jains.

The degree of understanding them well depends upon one’s knowledge of the religion. Age factor has nothing to do with it.

Once again, knowledge of the principles and how much importance a Jain grants to them depends on person to person and their situations, conditions and guidance. Modern day to day life is so mechanical that one has little time to fully practice these five principles. Never the less a Jain would think of these five principles before violating them grossly.

23. What divides the Digambras, the “sky clad,” and Svetambras, the “white clad”?[47]

Skyclads follow the attire and way of life as it was dictated by all the twenty-four Tirthankaras even until three hundred years after the last seer in 300 BC. Digambras or Skyclads have always followed the original path and are still following it in India ever since.

24. Where did this division originate?[48]

The Whiteclads or Swatambers came about after 300 BC when a 12 year famine in the province of Magadh (present day State of Bihar) was predicted by a Skyclad monk who advised the followers to go south to survive…

But, some were adamant to stay in Magadh during the famine and had to change themselves according to the calamities of the day. They adopted and amended different principles.

25. What purpose comes from the existence of monks and nuns in Jainism?[49],[50]

Monks and Nuns have a dual purpose in Jainism. Firstly, they want to be in the front of the line for salvation by fully practising the principles of Jainism called Mahavratas.

Second purpose is that they are real examples for the layman in the Jain community.

Frankly, they are the greatest source of encouragement and guidance. They the upholders of the Jain religion without having any authoritative behaviour.

26. According to About (2015), it states:

Jainism is the one of the most ancient religions of India teaching non-violence, peaceful co-existence, a disciplined lifestyle, and limiting possession. It teaches not to hurt any soul by thoughts, speech, and actions. Thus, no injury to all beings, including our ecosystem. It precisely elaborates the route to salvation by reducing all Karmas to zero.[51]

How does the Jain tradition define “salvation” and its end result in zero Karma?[52],[53]

An intensive practice of Jain principles, denying one’s body of pleasure and pain; fasting for long times; walking on foot, controlling even the subtle greed, anger, passions and possessions one reduces Karmas to zero and thus is closer to salvation.

Salvation, according to Jainism, is only possible after shedding all Karmas. Salvation is an eternal abode where the soul remains with it’s own individual identity and possess all virtuous qualities of a liberated soul. This is an abode where the soul does not have to travel to different places and is not subjected to the vagaries and sufferings of Birth, old age and death. The soul ceases the cycle of birth and death.

One must know that Jainism is not one the ancient religions of India. It is the only ancient religion of India. Others are imports into the country. So-called Hinduism based on the Vedas are imports.

Of the Aryans who arrived from the North East.

It is said that in the scriptures that you cannot get Salvation in this world. You cannot get ther because the time there is eternal. We have divided time into six-fold time, and we are in the fifth, which is bad, and the sixth will be horrible, and the fourth was good. Always, the fourth time prevails. So, from there, we have to do penance there. It does not matter if you do it there or here, you cannot have Salvation with penance, and no one is spared – even the Tarthinkars were not spared.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Founder, and “Preserver and Sustainer.” Jain Centre of British Columbia.

[2] Individual Publication Date: July 22, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2016 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Photograph courtesy of Anand Jain.

[4] Jain Center of British Columbia. (2015). About. Retrieved from http://jaincenterbc.org/about/.

[5] In Hinduism (2015), it, in part, states:

Hinduism, major world religion originating on the Indian subcontinent and comprising several and varied systems of philosophy, belief, and ritual. Although the name Hinduism is relatively new, having been coined by British writers in the first decades of the 19th century, it refers to a rich cumulative tradition of texts and practices, some of which date to the 2nd millennium bce or possibly earlier. If the Indus valley civilization (3rd–2nd millennium bce) was the earliest source of these traditions, as some scholars hold, then Hinduism is the oldest living religion on Earth. Its many sacred texts in Sanskrit and vernacular languages served as a vehicle for spreading the religion to other parts of the world, though ritual and the visual and performing arts also played a significant role in its transmission. From about the 4th century ce, Hinduism had a dominant presence in Southeast Asia, one that would last for more than 1,000 years.

Hinduism. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/Hinduism.

[6] Indus civilization. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/Indus-civilization.

[7] Sanskrit language. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/Sanskrit-language.

[8] Southeast Asia. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/place/Southeast-Asia.

[9] In Buddhism (2015), it, in part, states:

Buddhism, religion and philosophy that developed from the teachings of the Buddha (Sanskrit: “awakened one”), a teacher who lived in northern India between the mid-6th and the mid-4th centuriesbce (before the Common Era or Christian era). Spreading from India to Central and Southeast Asia, China, Korea, and Japan, Buddhism has played a central role in the spiritual, cultural, and social life of Asia, and during the 20th century it spread to the West.

Buddhism. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/Buddhism.

[10] Buddha. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Buddha-founder-of-Buddhism.

[11] India. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/place/India.

[12] Hinduism. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/Hinduism.

[13] Indus civilization. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/Indus-civilization.

[14] Sanskrit language. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/Sanskrit-language.

[15] Southeast Asia. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/place/Southeast-Asia.

[16] Buddhism. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/Buddhism.

[17] Buddha. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Buddha-founder-of-Buddhism.

[18] Inia. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/place/India.

[19] Hinduism. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/Hinduism.

[20] Indus civilization. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/Indus-civilization.

[21] Sanskrit language. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/Sanskrit-language.

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[24] Buddha. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Buddha-founder-of-Buddhism.

[25] India. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/place/India.

[26] Hinduism. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/Hinduism.

[27] Indus civilization. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/Indus-civilization.

[28] Sanskrit language. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/Sanskrit-language.

[29] Southeast Asia. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/place/Southeast-Asia.

[30] Buddhism. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/Buddhism.

[31] Buddha. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Buddha-founder-of-Buddhism.

[32] India. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/place/India.

[33] India. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/place/India.

[34] ahimsa. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/ahimsa.

[35] anekantavada. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/anekantavada.

[36] BBC UK. (2014). Jainism at a Glance. Retrieved from http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/jainism/ataglance/glance.shtml.

[37] India. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/place/India.

[38] ahimsa. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/ahimsa.

[39] anekantavada. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/anekantavada.

[40] BBC UK. (2014). Jainism at a Glance. Retrieved from http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/jainism/ataglance/glance.shtml.

[41] ahimsa. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/ahimsa.

[42] BBC UK. (2014). Jainism at a Glance. Retrieved from http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/jainism/ataglance/glance.shtml.

[43] BBC UK. (2014). Jainism at a Glance. Retrieved from http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/jainism/ataglance/glance.shtml.

[44] BBC UK. (2014). Jainism at a Glance. Retrieved from http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/jainism/ataglance/glance.shtml.

[45] BBC UK. (2014). Jainism at a Glance. Retrieved from http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/jainism/ataglance/glance.shtml.

[46] BBC UK. (2014). Jainism at a Glance. Retrieved from http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/jainism/ataglance/glance.shtml.

[47] BBC UK. (2014). Jainism at a Glance. Retrieved from http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/jainism/ataglance/glance.shtml.

[48] BBC UK. (2014). Jainism at a Glance. Retrieved from http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/jainism/ataglance/glance.shtml.

[49] BBC UK. (2014). Jainism at a Glance. Retrieved from http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/jainism/ataglance/glance.shtml.

[50] Jainism. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/Jainism.

[51] Jainism. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/Jainism.

[52] Jainism. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/Jainism.

[53] karma. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/karma.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Anand Jain (Part Three) [Online].July 2016; 11(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-anand-jain-part-three.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, July 22). An Interview with Anand Jain (Part Three). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-anand-jain-part-three.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Anand Jain (Part Three). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A, July. 2016. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-anand-jain-part-three>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An Interview with Anand Jain (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-anand-jain-part-three.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Anand Jain (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A (July 2016). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-anand-jain-part-three.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Anand Jain (Part Three)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-anand-jain-part-three>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Anand Jain (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-anand-jain-part-three.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Anand Jain (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11.A (2016):July. 2016. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-anand-jain-part-three>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Anand Jain (Part Three) [Internet]. (2016, July); 11(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-anand-jain-part-three.

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© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2016. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2016-07-15

An Interview with Anand Jain (Part Two)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 11.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Seven)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: July 15, 2016

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2016

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,328

ISSN 2369-6885

Anand Jain.jpg

Abstract

An interview with Anand Jain. He discusses: falsehoods about Jainism; truths that dispel the falsehoods; greatest difficult as a minority religion in the Lower Mainland; non-Jain to Jain citizen relationships; consideration of other religions from Jainism; motivation for “promoting non-violence, peaceful co-existence, vegetarianism, and interfaith dialogue”; and reason for espousing vegetarianism.

Keywords: Anand Jain, British Columbia, Founder, Jain, Preserver, Sustainer.

An Interview with Anand Jain: Founder, and “Preserver and Sustainer.” Jain Centre of British Columbia (Part Two)[1],[2],[3]

*Footnotes throughout the interview and citation style listing after the interview.*

9. If we can explore something a bit, which comes from the specificity of the previous response, then this might be of community value in the short, or long, term. In a very pluralistic society, as Canada is, there can be a lot of superficial knowledge about various religious belief systems. What falsehoods exist about Jainism?[4]

The biggest falsehood is that this is an offshoot of Hinduism. Even most of the Hindus have no knowledge that their first Ved, namely, Rig Veda elaborately mention Jain’s first tirthankar as the first person to teach the civilization and whose son’s name gave the name Bharat to the sub-continent of India.

10. What truths dispel them?[5]

Basically, people are not informed about it. Jains have done a very poor job about informing others simply because they do not want to, they are not in the habit of beating their own drum, which would put them in another category – where they will be accused of proselytizing other people, and also they do not want to be haughty. If somebody wants to learn, there are libraries and temples. Come, we will be happy to tell you about our functions.

Some of them know very well. Some of the pundits know that it is the oldest one. They know that it is a separate entity. If they can say that the other religions came out of that in a different form, then that is true. Some of them still do not want to believe it because the number is not great. Some will say, “If it is such a great and big religion, why are there not a lot of followers?”

The answer is that it is a religion is practice. You have to practice what you are taught. You cannot simply not practice, not being able to do anything and still call yourself religious. Even somebody that is a Jain would not be a Jain, if they do not follow the principles because it is not based on the caste system, it is an action-system. It goes by your acts.

Traditionally, Jains do not tangle in arguing and imposing their religion on others, but the scholars like the Late Dr. Radhakrishnan, the second President of India, and numerous others with knowledge of the history of India clearly wrote that Jainism is an ancient religion separate from Hinduism. This remains a difficult issue where the 80% of the problem of the land are Hindu. Jains do not want to create a problem; since, we are taught to put the country or your land first and religion after. Jains are devout nationalists. When it comes to receiving honours from the President of India in 2015, Jains stole the show. Out of 109 medals, 8 were received by Jains. Being a large majority in India, Hindus think that all is wrote in their book and they believe that Jesus was south Indian Hindu and Christianity was born in India. So, you can judge for yourself.

Like I told my friend, I never sold 22 karat gold. I was a jeweller, but when I see all f the Indians buying 2 karat gold. I can come out and put a smoke screen and say, “Yes, yes! I do sell it.” But that is not. What should I say? I should say I sell diamond watches and 10 Karat. So I should state that that way. But the other religions have a different perspective. They say they sell coffee, Starbucks. No, you brew your own and stay there.

11. Two religious sects in society come to mind to the earlier point about proselytizing to individuals in a society. Whereas the Jains consider national identity first and then religious identity in terms of priorities, and without proselytizing, if one looks at the Jehovah’s Witnesses or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (The Mormons), they tend to come to you. That’s a different methodology for bringing people into the community. To me, that is a poignant point by you.

So if one looks at the demographics of the religions in British Columbia, if you add Roman Catholics and Protestants together, that amounts to about 73% of the Canadian populace with 16.5% for those without religious affiliation, which leaves 10.5% for the rest of the religious demographics of the nation.[6] That is, 89.5% of the Canadian populace have labels as Roman Catholic, Protestant, or No Religious Affiliation, which means the lack of knowledge about the intricacies of small (by demographic numbers, not ethnicity) religions is not deliberate but, rather, a natural and predictable consequence of size compared to the large religious/irreligious labels in the country. What remains the greatest difficulty as a minority religion within the Lower Mainland, British Columbia, and Canada – with some insight into the intricacies?[7],[8],[9]

The greatest difficulty being the availability of Jain food in restaurants and some groceries mainly used by Jains. It is comforting to note that since Jains enjoy a respectable place in Indian society and in educated masses outside India. Jains are given a special welcome by all upon knowledge of their Jain identity.

I, myself, have experience welcome gesture from different quarters when people knew that I am a Jain. My benefactor an Irish Canadian who sponsored my application to come to Canada and gave my first job before arriving in Canada confided in me that he believed Jains to be honest and educated when he took the decision to sponsor me: “Ethics have their worth in gold.” This is my own invented, experienced, proverb.

Don’t love wealth too much. Jains are not worried about what other people do. We are not here to teach other people how to live.

12. How might non-Jain Canadian citizens reach out to Jain Canadian citizens, and their community, in a compassionate, reasonable, and respectful manner, and vice versa – even simple day-to-day words and deeds?[10]

Even before our place in Surrey that we acquired on September 1, 2015, people used to phone me up. People who were really interested in Jains found out. I had a store, a jeweller store that said Jain Jewllers. They would say, “oh, are you a Jain?” And when they read my article in the paper about Diwali being an invention of the Jains, I found it comforting that none of the non-Jains came and discouraged it because it is in the scriptures. In fact, the word Diwali is not in any of the Jain scriptures.

Yet, they emulated. They followed, which is good. Nothing wrong because Mahavira was for everyone, not just the Jains. Now, we have the centre and the telephone and email, and a website. So, they can contact us. I was always available for those who are eager to learn, but I would not go and talk to a person on the street and say, “How about turning into a Jain?” We have all of the books and so on. As long as I am here, I am sure others will be, so there is no problem. We welcome them.

I do believe that most Canadians do respect their fellowman and I always heard praise by Jain-Canadians about how well they were treated by people and fellow workers and employers here in Canada. Almost all Jains are highly educated professionals they manage their affairs intelligently, yet there is a need on the part of the Jain Centre of BC to host an open house or knowledge session for Canadians and non-Jains to come to the Temple and enjoy the philosophy at work.

13. Some religions conceive alternate religions, philosophies, and ways of life as partial truths. For instance, Islam considers adherents of Judaism and Christianity as Ahl al-Kitāb or “People of the Book.”[11],[12],[13],[14] Of course, in the past, this came with the special tax, called jizyah, during the great Caliphate for the non-believers, named dhimmis, belief in non-Islamic religions.[15],[16],[17],[18] Regardless, in comparison to its own considered total truth – internal to itself, where does Jainism hold other religions, philosophies, and ways of life?[19]

At the time of the 24th and last Seer Mahavira of the Jains, there were 363 main religions in India and all were passionate about their own religions and there was a great chaos and violence Mahavir, at that time, invented the theory of relativity (before Einstein brought it to light). He told the masses that the truth is to examine with seven aspects of an object, only then, one can reach the full truth. This way he not only separated himself from one’s own path. On that basis, Jains refrain from argumentative behaviour.

Jains can explain what they believe and should stay away from criticism. Criticism leads to revenge and violence; violence is the one we abhor. Incidentally, once a reporter asked Einstein if he were to believe in transmigration of the soul, in which religion would he want to be born in his next life. His answer was he wanted to be born as a Jain in a Jain family.

14. According to About (2015), the Jain Center of British Columbia states:

Jain Center BC is a non profit organization established in 1984 for the purpose of promoting non-violence, peaceful co-existence, vegetarianism, and interfaith dialogue. Our aim is to provide a place to worship together for Jain followers, learn and promote Jainism. Through this organization we want to support and promote Jain principles of Ahimsa, Aparigraha, and Anekant. We also want to provide a platform to enrich our future generation to learn and value their spiritual heritage. We celebrate Mahavir Jayanti, Paryushan, Das Lakshan, Mahavir Nirvan (Deepawali) besides other celebrations.[20]

What motivates the principles of “promoting non-violence, peaceful co-existence, vegetarianism, and interfaith dialogue”?[21]

Interfaith dialogue brings people of different faiths and beliefs under one umbrella for understanding different religions and tolerance of one another’s way of life. It is a great education for all mankind.

The underlying thing is this, lest we forget. So it is our duty to teach these good habits taught to us through the religion and familial backgrounds, and make sure that they are not encroaching on anyone. Incidentally, even in India, 90% of the Jains are highly educated, here our children are outstanding in school.

I do not want to brag, but I have four daughters. All of them, including myself, are all University of BC graduates. My oldest daughter is a 48-year old. She had been practicing pediatrics for the last 20 years. Another one is a clinical pharmacist and worked fro ten years in a hospital. The third one is a speech pathologist living in the states. The last one graduated as a producer for television and radio.

My friends, their children, most of them are doctors and in good professions, lawyers, and so on. That shows that these teachings have a lot to do with it. Whenever we went to the parent-teacher meeting in West Vancouver, they were very thankful that our children went through their school. And I remember there were two incidents. My daughter was selected valedictorian. Second, another second daughter also served as the host for the dinner, gave a speech, and so on. My wife was saying that my first one got two scholarships, and I do not know about the other daughter, and I said do not worry she will get it too. And she did.

One of the teachers got up and said, “I want to say something. All of my students re equal to me, but if I say Sarita Jain is special to me, then I am not lying.” The only thing I heard from her was that if they can produce a kid like Sarita, then I will become vegetarian. And I said to my wife, “I have accomplished my purpose coming here.”…

I have very, very good moments in these 50 years. I feel happy meeting people. I feel happy not because of making money, but because of having lots of moments. Teaching my kids, seeing them accomplish something, I have ten grandchildren and they are achieving something above the norms. So I am a happy person.

I do not know if you can see my age. What do you think is my age?

65 to 70?

According to my passport, I’ll be 75 in August. But in those days, the babies were born at home. And when we were sent to school, the headmaster in the kindergarten, I remember today. He said, “Because the government exams for civil servant are restricted to people who failed the exam twice after a certain date every year, they cannot sit in the exam.” To my dad, he was saying, “So because of that, why don’t you put the date two years younger.” So, in August, I’ll be 77.

Canada has been good to me.

In Jainism, we are taught not to be jealous or find fault. There are good things everywhere.

15. The leading medical institutions in the world such as the Mayo Clinic espouse the Mediterranean and similar diets. Why vegetarianism?[22]

Vegetarianism has numerous advantages for the society. It keeps us away from animal violence; it helps in maintaining our natural environment; it promotes healthy lifestyle; bones, blood and flesh are not meant for human consumption, one has no right to take any living being’s life. Believe it or not killing brings Bad Karmas.

In my own experience, and this is the truth, one’s own diet is related to the environment the person lives in. If you go far north, you cannot find vegetables. In the Indian subcontinent, the weather is warm. We can grow lots of grains and lots of foods, fruits, and vegetables. India is a land of sages and saints who wanted to pay more attention to their soul rather than their body. They wanted through free will and didn’t want to interfere with their environment.

What I will tell you is an anecdote, 5 people are travelling through a jungle. They are hungry. Suddenly, they find a big mango tree. One says, “I’m hungry, let’s cut it, bring it home, and then we can grow all of the mangoes we want.”

Second person says, “No, no, no, we can take a big part of it, and there will be plenty for us.”

Third person says, “No, no, no, you just take a branch, enough to fill our belly, and leave the rest here.”

A fourth one says, “You know, I am not in favour of cutting anything. I am just in favour of taking what is right for ourselves.”

A fifth person says, “I do not want to do anything because we do not know who owns this and we are not asking its permission, so we just take whatever we have and drop on the ground.”

This is how the Indian culture comes down to, the minimum harm to the environment. Jain philosophy very in tune with that. There is the path that is the minimum harm to the environment. When you play with animals, the dogs, birds, and so on, it feels good. They have a right for their own life, right. It all depends on one’s environment that they live in, their heritage, how they were brought up, the history and location of the land, and we can only speak for ourselves. Even the Jain sages, everything they ever said was negative. They simply explained the results, the qualities. It brings bad Karma even when killing a small life. Even with water, we cannot simply leave the tap open.

For instance, if I have to wash five dishes, I have to take out the leftovers with the utensil, and after the first through fourth, we start to clean one, two, three, four, five with new soap, and that way you use less water. We cannot just breathe in the air for nothing. If there is a need, go ahead, if there is a reason, go ahead. Don’t eat after sunset, or otherwise you get indigestion. Don’t drink water right out of the well or the stream. Now, the municipality will do that.

So, it is a must for us to strain it. Things like that for the Jains. Now, people are finding out it is good for everybody.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Founder, and “Preserver and Sustainer.” Jain Centre of British Columbia.

[2] Individual Publication Date: July 15, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2016 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Photograph courtesy of Anand Jain.

[4] Jainism. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/Jainism.

[5] Jainism. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/Jainism.

[6] According to Population by religion, by province and territory (2001 Census)
(Alberta, British Columbia, Yukon), the total population of Canada amounts to 29,639,035 with 12,936,905 Roman Catholics and 8,654,850 Protestants, which means 12,936,905+8,654,850/29,639,035 amounts to 72.8%. 4,900,090 label as No Religious Affiliation, which means 4,900,090/29,639,035 amounts to 16.5%. 73%+16.5%=89.5% leaves 10.5% for the other religious categorizations in Canada.

For more information from 2001, Statistics Canada. (2005, January 25). Population by religion, by province and territory (2001 Census)
(Alberta, British Columbia, Yukon). Retrieved from http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/demo30c-eng.htm.

[7] Jainism. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/Jainism.

[8] Vancouver. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/place/Vancouver.

[9] Central Intelligence Agency. (2015). Canada. Retrieved from https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ca.html.

[10] Jainism. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/Jainism.

[11] Islam. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/Islam.

[12] Judaism. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/Judaism.

[13] Christianity. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/Christianity.

[14] Ahl al-Kitab. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/Ahl-al-Kitab.

[15] jizya. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/jizya.

[16] Islam. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/Islam.

[17] Ahl al-Kitab. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/Ahl-al-Kitab.

[18] Caliphate. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/place/Caliphate.

[19] Jainism. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/Jainism.

[20] Jain Center of British Columbia. (2015). About. Retrieved from http://jaincenterbc.org/about/.

[21] Jain Center of British Columbia. (2015). About. Retrieved from http://jaincenterbc.org/about/.

[22] Jain Center of British Columbia. (2015). About. Retrieved from http://jaincenterbc.org/about/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Anand Jain (Part Two) [Online].July 2016; 11(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-anand-jain-part-two.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, July 15). An Interview with Anand Jain (Part Two). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-anand-jain-part-two.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Anand Jain (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A, July. 2016. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-anand-jain-part-two>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An Interview with Anand Jain (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-anand-jain-part-two.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Anand Jain (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A (July 2016). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-anand-jain-part-two.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Anand Jain (Part Two)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-anand-jain-part-two>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Anand Jain (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-anand-jain-part-two.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Anand Jain (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11.A (2016):July. 2016. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-anand-jain-part-two>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Anand Jain (Part Two) [Internet]. (2016, July); 11(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-anand-jain-part-two.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2016. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2016-07-08

An Interview with Anand Jain (Part One)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 11.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Seven)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: July 8, 2016

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2016

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,621

ISSN 2369-6885

Anand Jain.jpg

Abstract

An interview with Anand Jain. He discusses: geographic, cultural, and linguistic family background; the foundation and development of the Jain Centre of British Columbia; memorable moments in its developmental partnership; current status of the Jain Centre of British Columbia; the content and purpose of prayers; the Jain image of heaven and hell; the purpose of community; and the central communal event.

Keywords: Anand Jain, British Columbia, Founder, Jain, Preserver, Sustainer.

An Interview with Anand Jain: Founder, and “Preserver and Sustainer,” Jain Centre of British Columbia (Part One)[1],[2],[3]

*Footnotes throughout the interview, and bibliography and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. In terms of geography, culture, and language, where does your family background reside?[4]

Old Delhi (walled City), India; North India Culture; Hindi language.

2. You co-founded, and remain a member of the board of directors for, the Jain Center of British Columbia.[5],[6] How did this begin and develop in its early years?[7]

I am actually the founder, preserver and sustainer as I solely registered the society with my own funds and obtained the Federal Government Charitable status for which I had to communicate and convince Revenue Canada to issue Charitable status. I have been the president and director for many years.

My parents always performed worship in the morning at their temple in India. So, we decided to hold it at my home. There were, maybe, three families that we knew at the time. They came home and performed the prayers and so on, which I knew by heart because I was doing these prayers with my dad at the temple when I was even eight years old. When one prays, they take a bath if they want to. They do their prayers close to the altars, go to the bath there, take a long white cloth, and after wearing it, and they are away from worldly affairs, then they go upstairs and have books. All of the utensils and the offerings. And, we start doing prayers there, and then we go and study some more of the scriptures.

Then we would come home, and only then did our mother give us food. So I started from my house, and then later on I had an idea. That when we have more money we should build a temple. It came about because I was still trying to establish myself. And then I discussed the idea of incorporating a society. People told me, “If you want to do it, then do it on your own. You don’t know who’s interested or not interested.” So, I went ahead and then incorporated this society, the Jain Society of BC.

We had, maybe, a dozen Jain members. And one of the members kept saying, “You don’t have the charity number from the government of Canada.” I didn’t worry about that. Then I went ahead and worked very hard and brought in the money. I was the first one. I spent my own money, and I did it. It was my passion, and is still to this day.

Actually, way back, I came in 66’. My parents came in 76’ just to visit. At the time, I invited a few Jains to my home and conducted Jain prayers with Digamber Puja; similar pattern continued on three times a year at my home until 1984 when one prominent Jain Muni visited Vancouver. At the time, he initiated us to form a society and I complied whole-heartedly.

Every now and then and one religious festivals, I invited members at my house or at other member’s home for prayers. I always gathered the prayer items and conducted the prayers leading them myself. With research and past knowledge of Jain prayers and ceremonies, I compiled a manuscript containing salient prayers and printed thirty copies and later revised it with more additional prayers.

Since 1984, we held one prayer meeting every year until 1913 on the occasion of the birthday of Lord Mahavira at a prominent Hindi temple with guest speakers. By this time, we had approximately 30 members who all helped financially. I always made sure that we put some funds in term deposits and between 1984 and 2015, the funds great to $26,000.

Along with the above, we held prayers at a rented hall twice a year.

3. After acquisition of the charity number, what were one or two of the memorable moments in its developmental partnership?

Before I got that number, and even after, I was the only one who used to invite people into my home. Luckily, I still had a bigger home. I still have. Very spacious and nice place. I was the only one who knew the prayers, the routine. And then they came. Some of the closer ones with me. They reciprocated. They hosted some of the prayers at their home, but very few.

After that, the society grew. A lot of newcomers came from Africa, India, and so on. We needed a bigger place. We used to go and rent a place, and some of the big buildings, where they have meeting rooms set up for the tenants and so on. Once in a year, we made sure, after 84’, that a saint came from New Jersey. He advised us to have a society at that time. Formally, the society was formed.

Every year, we used to do a big prayer meeting in a Hindu temple. Until 2013.

4. Where does the Jain Center of British Columbia stand now?,[8]

It’s still in transition because we bought a unit, a warehouse complex that was already approved for public assembly. It had been in operation for 18 years, and their membership was dwindling, and so they sold it to us. It was 2015 that we acquired that. It is in Surrey, British Columbia.

At present, the Jain Centre is in a transitional period of setting up a temple in a strata title public assembly approved warehouse complex in Surrey. We have approximately over 100 families eager to see the full-fledged Jain Temple in July 2016. We have a very efficient and diligent working executive committee with a hard working progressive president.

I do prayers from 10 o’clock.

5. In terms of the content of the prayers and the purpose of the prayers, what are they?

You see, Jainism is very peculiar compared to other religions in terms of antiquity. What happened, the scriptures say, way back, many, many years ago, there was a different system of existence, then came a system where we would be judged by our karmas. At that time, the first teacher, we call him Rishabhanatha, who’s history and teaching are also in the other religious scriptures.

He taught us how to cultivate the land, how to live in the society, reading, writing, arts, and barter in those days. And then that person also told us how to get salvation. He taught us that whatever you do will be debited or credited to your account. If it is debited to your account, you might inherit hell. If it is credited in your account, you might inherit heaven, but still you are subject to life, birth, old age, and death. But when your debits and credits are zero, that is the time that one can attain salvation.

One other peculiar thing about Jainism si that we have 24 seers. And none of them can help us or, or put us in heaven or hell by pleasing them or displeasing them. Whatever is done is done to our own karmas, they are only a means to teach us, or they are not here, only the scripture, we believe, we follow their path. If we emulate their path, only then we can get salvation. If we pray for them, they don’t feel happy.

If we abuse them, they curse us. This is a very good system. Jainism, we are independent. Nobody is controlling us. This is the only religion that is not organized, which is very, very good. Because we don’t believe in dwarfing any other religion, it’s independent thought. So, when we pray, we just recite their lives. And their good deeds and teaching. Non-violence, non-stealing, or understanding the truth, no false pride, things like this.

6. Two questions come to mind, for me. From the Jain scriptures, what is the image of heaven? What is the image of hell?

Very good question, in Jainism, we believe there are 16 stages in heaven, and hell there are seven stages. I took it this way. Even if it is just a thought, it is a very good insight, just like we do in daily life with promotion, promotion, promotion, and demotion, demotion, demotion. The scriptures say that in heaven or hell, one’s lifespan is limited.

So once you’re out of there, one can go into different lives, transmigration of souls. But in heaven, it’s peaceful, luxurious, but even then there are many, let’s say, stages or many elevations like one, two, three, four, five… sixteen. One might feel jealous of the other one. And when one does that again, one can go back to hell. One’s thoughts must be controlled. If we control our thought processes, our actions will be limited.

7. According to President Vijay’s President Message, the Jain Center of British Columbia provides numerous activities and services for its community including the following:

[P]athshala, Hindi classes, performing Satsang every Friday, and performing Pooja and Pravachans everyday during Mahaparyushan par…Jain Pathshala, Hindi Classes, Satsang, Jaina (Jain Association in North America) activities and other activities for Youth that we are planning for this summer. We have also added a Jain Calendar…E-newsletter every three months, comprising of religious articles, health articles, quiz, and Jain recipes.[9]

What purpose does community activity serve to Jains in British Columbia?[10]

All the activities elaborated by Vijay Jain are part and parcel of the Jain Centre of BC and the purpose of such activities is to bring the community closer to each member.

This helps in maintaining our religious tradition; cultural tradition; helping non newcomers in the lower mainland to deal with government and city authorities; introducing pioneers to have liaison for education, jobs and finding housing including advising for the purchase of residence. To make the newcomers at home in a new environment by narrating examples of early settlers. In the past, I have helped many lone students in their teens coming to study in the lower mainland universities with setting up their accommodation, transportation and early free lodging and boarding at my house.

The main purpose is to bring them together where they have a place to come together, share their sorrows, get some advice from each other. It’s like intermingling. Jainism has a very good principle that says we all have to live together and one person cannot live alone because the society is interdependent on one another. Keeping in mind that philosophy: birds of a kind flock together. At the same time, we have to be very friendly, open, helpful, towards our neighbour. That’s the whole religion. Mainly the newcomers come and usually do not know, like if I go to a new country. Usually, if somebody helps us, it is a boon. That is the purpose.

8. What remains the Jain Center of British Columbia’s central communal event?[11]

Couple picnics in the summer every year. At this time, the membership freely intermingles with each other and open-heartedly talk their achievements and problems. Kids enjoy meeting and playing with other kids.

Central communal event, we have mainly went to Mahavira’s or Lord Mavi’s birthday. Sometimes March and sometimes April because of the Indian calendar. Sometimes in September, we have our fasting days, and ten days of brooding, thinking on ourselves with all of the teachings that have been given to us. All that they mean, and how we can incorporate them into our lives.

And the third is Diwali. Most people do not know that Diwali is the invention of the Jains. I wrote this article, or I had an interview, like the one I’m doing with you right now, with the Vancouver Sun reporter one day. Ten years ago, at least. He said, “How do the Jains celebrate Diwali?” The Jains celebrate Diwali because the Jains invented Diwali. Lord Mahavira had nirvana on this day. So, that’s a big day for us. Those three are important. Since we’re in a situation with this new location, that once a month we have a general prayer, where everybody is invited. One of the people can sponsor it. I go for that. If there is no sponsor, the center will be the sponsor for it.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Founder, and “Preserver and Sustainer,” Jain Centre of British Columbia.

[2] Individual Publication Date: July 8, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2016 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Photograph courtesy of Anand Jain.

[4] Jain Center of British Columbia. (2015). Board of Directors. Retrieved from http://jaincenterbc.org/board-of-directors/.

[5] Jain Center of British Columbia. (2015). Jain Center of British Columbia. Retrieved from http://jaincenterbc.org/.

[6] Jain Center of British Columbia. (2015). Board of Directors. Retrieved from http://jaincenterbc.org/board-of-directors/.

[7] Jain Center of British Columbia. (2015). Board of Directors. Retrieved from http://jaincenterbc.org/board-of-directors/.

[8] Jain Center of British Columbia. (2015). Jain Center of British Columbia. Retrieved from http://jaincenterbc.org/.

[9] Jain, V. (n.d.). President’s Message. Retrieved from http://jaincenterbc.org/president-message/.

[10] Jain, V. (n.d.). President’s Message. Retrieved from http://jaincenterbc.org/president-message/.

[11] Jain, V. (n.d.). President’s Message. Retrieved from http://jaincenterbc.org/president-message/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Anand Jain (Part One) [Online].July 2016; 11(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-anand-jain-part-one.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, July 8). An Interview with Anand Jain (Part One). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-anand-jain-part-one.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Anand Jain (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A, July. 2016. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-anand-jain-part-one>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An Interview with Anand Jain (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-anand-jain-part-one.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Anand Jain (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A (July 2016). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-anand-jain-part-one.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Anand Jain (Part One)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-anand-jain-part-one>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Anand Jain (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-anand-jain-part-one.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Anand Jain (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11.A (2016):July. 2016. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-anand-jain-part-one>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Anand Jain (Part One) [Internet]. (2016, July); 11(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-anand-jain-part-one.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2016. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2016-07-01

An Interview with Elizabeth Mwanga

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 11.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Seven)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: July 1, 2016

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2016

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 4,456

ISSN 2369-6885

Elizabeth Mwanga.jpg

Abstract

An interview with Elizabeth Mwanga. She discusses: geographic, cultural, and linguistic background; responsibilities with profiles and representation in numerous outlets; lessons from an emergency; change in life course from the emergency; greatest risk factors for diabetes; B.A. in politics from New York University for personal growth and professional success; lifestyle factors most important for diabetes prevention; earning Identifying Best-in-Class Support Services for Patients with Diabetes from INNOCENTIVE; blog topics; Bob Friedrich in District 23; linguistic talent; Louis Kayanda Mwangaguhanga and work with the Open Society Foundation in South Sudan; core motivation, purpose, and final goal for the initiative in South Sudan; management of a polyglot team; First Lady of the United States of America, Michelle Obama: Instagram ‘Hate’ (2015); self-description as a diabetes advocate; services and products for customers; most meaningful initiatives and accomplishments; the future of diabetes; and near and far future technological disruption and diabetes advocacy.

Keywords: diabetes, Elizabeth Mwanga, Louis Kayanda Mwangaguhanga, South Sudan.

An Interview with Elizabeth Mwanga: Founder & CEO, HCODE; Founder & CEO, MCODE; Founder & CEO, Winning Diabetes LLC[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

*Appendix II for Interview with Louis Kayanda Mwangaguhanga by Elizabeth Mwanga.*

1. In terms of geography, culture, and language, where does your personal and familial background reside?

My parents were born and raised in Southwest Uganda, in towns bordering Rwanda and the Democratic Republic of Congo. I currently reside in New York City, as does my immediate family – my three older brothers, as well as my parents. Our extended family mainly reside in Sub Sahara Africa and England. My immediate family speaks English. I have a basic level of understanding of Kinyarwanda and Kiswahili. I was born, raised and educated in the United States, and thus, through schooling, I took many years of Spanish, so I am proficient in that language, as well. Culturally, I consider myself African American. A broad term, but an accurate one, nonetheless.

2. You have profiles and representation in numerous outlets.[5],[6],[7],[8],[9],[10],[11],[12],[13],[14],[15] What responsibilities come with this public recognition?

When you are considered a ‘public figure’, whether it be online, or in mass media, there is a tremendous responsibility to represent yourself honestly, but also in a manner that affords respect to those who view your work. I take this responsibility very seriously. I am building a legacy which will benefit many people who must face life’s hurdles, be them financial, health, political, etc.

3. You have Type 1.5 diabetes.[16],[17] In On The Verge Of A Diabetic Coma, She Realized She Couldn’t Wait Any Longer To Take Off The Weight (2013), it portrays the risks of high blood sugar in the form a diabetic coma:

Elizabeth was on the verge of a diabetic coma. A seemingly shocking diagnosis for a woman who’d just seen a doctor, had her blood levels tested and was told she was fine — despite the fact that at 5’2″, she weighed 210 pounds.

“The doctor noticed my blood sugar was very high that day,” she continued, “but he just asked what I’d had for breakfast. When I listed off the fried eggs, the bacon and bagel, he said, ‘It’s probably because you ate a lot this morning.’ He didn’t do any follow up testing, even after I told him there was a history of diabetes in my family. He never said a thing about my weight. He just told me I was healthy.”

But that day in the ICU, it was clear that Elizabeth was anything but healthy. Her blood sugar was nearly 1000, ten times what’s considered normal.[18]

Furthermore, Diabetes-Fighting Secrets from a Former Fat Chef (2013) states:

In 2007, Elizabeth Mwanga, 36, was found unconscious on the couch of her Manhattan apartment. She was rushed to the hospital, where tests revealed that her blood sugar levels had skyrocketed to 1000 mg/dL—nearly 10 times the normal range. At this level, Elizabeth risked not only a diabetic coma, but also possible death.

That day, Elizabeth was diagnosed with Type 1 diabetes after doctors determined she had been experiencing what is known as diabetic ketoacidosis (DKA), an acute, potentially life-threatening complication that occurs in patients with Type 1 diabetes. In the months prior, she had turned to sugary treats and alcohol as a way of coping with a bad breakup. But the medical crisis showed Elizabeth, who was morbidly obese at 201 lbs and 5’1, that she needed a lifestyle makeover—and fast. “In the hospital, I made a conscious decision to eat healthier, lose weight and manage my condition better,” she recalls. “It wasn’t driven by vanity. It wasn’t driven by, ‘Oh, I want to look fabulous in a bikini.’ It was driven by the fact that I needed to make these changes in order to live.”

Doctors told Elizabeth she would be on insulin for the rest of her life, but she was determined to prove them wrong.[19]

Upon further reflection, what did this emergency teach you?

The most important thing this extraordinary experience taught me is how to stay alive and healthy. My survival instincts kicked in and I quickly understood that if I did not take control of my health, that I would not be around much longer, So I learned a lot about my particular type of diabetes (Type 1.5), how to cook and eat healthful in relation to my condition, and also how to motivate myself to regularly exercise in order to keep my blood sugar levels at a normal rate. It’s all worked, I haven’t needed insulin since late 2009, and my A1c (3 month blood sugar levels- required to be taken at least 2x per year) last taken in January 2016 was 4.6, which is that of a non-diabetic. Since 2010, my A1c has been below that of a diabetic, or even a pre-diabetic. So, I must be doing something right!

Another thing I have learned from the experience is to never fear the pursuit of your own happiness.

4. How did this change your life course?

Prior to my hospitalization, I was in transition, both professionally and personally. I had no real passion or drive. Afterward, I realized that what I desired most in life is to own my own highly successful businesses, which in my case has evolved into a two-part disruptive technology firm. Thru this venture I contribute to humanity though technology innovation, as well as philanthropy. In short, my near death experience actually gave me a purpose in life. Ironic.

5. What remain the greatest risk factors for diabetes?

The food we eat, a sedentary lifestyle (Type 1, 1.5 & 2). Heredity plays a large role in Type 1 & Type 1.5 diabetes. However, Type 1 & Type 1.5 diabetes can both be greatly controlled by diet and exercise. Also, mental stress can very much impact diabetes, in all types – 1, 1.5, and 2.

6. How has the B.A. in politics from New York University helped with personal growth and professional success?

The best major for me was Politics, and I know that now. For many years, I regretted obtaining a degree in Politics, because I thought that majoring in business would have been more suitable for my career goals. However, much of what the political science curriculum teaches is understanding how to navigate through professional and social situations to achieve your end goal. My area of concentration is International Studies; learning about the history of various governments has given me advantages when speaking with C-level executives of multinational corporations, as well as government officials, when negotiating contracts.

7. What lifestyle factors remain the most important in terms of diabetes prevention?

The International Diabetes Federation estimates that Type 2 diabetes, which is directly linked to obesity, accounts for roughly 90% of all diabetes cases. http://www.idf.org/about-diabetes With this in mind, keeping your BMI normal- which is internationally recognized as 18.5-24.9, is key. The NIH has an easy BMI calculator tool: http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/educational/lose_wt/BMI/bmicalc.htm . Of course this entails regular exercise, avoiding refined sugars, limiting refined carbs, and in general, eating more fresh fruits and vegetables. For those with type 1 and type 1.5 diabetes, prevention is trickier because these gradations of diabetes are mainly hereditary, and thus more difficult to prevent. That said, my solution for everyone is to: 1) Limit or eliminate refined sugar and refined carbohydrates from your diet, 2) Limit or eliminate glutens altogether, from your diet. An ideal meal plan should be at least 50% vegan and gluten free. Most diabetics are allergic to glutens, meaning, their blood sugar levels spike when they intake gluten products.

8. You earned the Identifying Best-in-Class Support Services for Patients with Diabetes from INNOCENTIVE. What does this award mean to you?

I was very proud to receive the award and have since expanded on the mobile health plan, which I designed for both diabetic patients and their providers. I am currently in talks with a major technology company to fold the program into one of their diabetic initiatives,

9. You are a Diabetes ‘Healthy Lifestyle’ Blogger. What topic in Diabetes remains the consistent theme with regards to attitude diet, exercise, lifestyle, and medical advice in these articles?

The most consistent theme and concern is diet and meal planning. Many diabetics are completely lost when it comes to what to eat in order to keep their blood sugar levels stable.

10. You volunteered for the campaign of Bob Friedrich in District 23. What distinguished him – platform and personality?

Bob has a long standing commitment to District 23. He’s the CFO of the Glen Oaks co-op board, a District 23 resident for decades. He is very down to earth, authentic and says what he means. What attracted me to his platform was his pragmatic approach to fiscal matters (he is an accountant by trade), and his long standing experience as a community advocate. He is not a traditional politician, which unfortunately worked against his campaign. However, I find him to be someone who would have made a dynamic Councilperson.

11. You speak four languages: English, Kinyarwanda, Kiswahili, and Spanish. Where does this linguistic talent source itself?[20]

Obviously, English being my native tongue has helped me in business dealings worldwide. Recently, I have been utilizing my (limited) Kinyarwanda, Kiswahili and Spanish skills to forge business relationships in countries where those languages are spoken. Language proficiency is a major tool in forging relationships and also can be utilized as a tactic to express cultural respect.

12. Your father,Louis Kayanda Mwangaguhunga, was a former UN Ambassador of Uganda – responsible for the construction and development of the Uganda embassy building in NYC. You have deep interest in African Development and Domestic, and Foreign Politics. Now, you have begun work to do with the Soros funded Open Society Foundation program with a focus on South Sudan with respect to government transparency and technology infrastructure. What does this personal history bring to this recent work with the Open Society Foundation in South Sudan?

The parcel of land was purchased by the first Ambassador, Apollo Kironde. My dad was responsible for the construction and development of the building, which is now estimated at over $25M USD, one of Uganda’s best assets, to date.

Senator Daniel Parick Moynihan was extremely instrumental in facilitating our family to establish residency in the United States. He literally helped save our lives.

Northern Uganda is directly below South Sudan – the countries share a border. There are many South Sudanese people in Uganda, throughout the country. I have several South Sudanese friends and associates and I have fully supported their fight for freedom and victories over the last years. The next hurdle for ‘the newest country in the world’ is to advance political transparency via technology.

13. What is the core motivation, purpose, and final goal for this initiative for South Sudan?

My company is developing an iris detection platform which will refine accuracy for South Sudanese elections.

14. You manage a team of individuals with 17 separate languages spoken amongst them.[21] How does this increase the effectiveness and strength of the team?

Everyone on my team is proficient in English, some better than others, of course. However, having access to technical professionals with 17 additional language skills, widens the pool of potential clients exponentially.

15. In First Lady of the United States of America, Michelle Obama: Instagram ‘Hate’ (2015), you described the “hate” towards the First Lady of the United States, Michelle Obama, and gave personal positive feelings about her, and a negative reaction to some public feelings about her.[22] What seems like the source of the negative feelings about her to you?

Unfortunately, I had to remove this post because I was receiving disturbing comments and emails. I will, however answer the question:

The most obvious answer is that Mrs. Obama is the first African American First Lady, and that is a shock to some people. Unfamiliarity often breeds fear, which can breed hate. At the very core, though, I believe the negative reaction toward our First lady stems from racism. This is rather disturbing.

16. You self-describe as a diabetes advocate. What does this implicate to you?

In my (limited) free time, I speak at schools in the New York City metropolitan area regarding diabetes, and the importance of good nutrition and fitness. I also offer gratis advice to a roster of endocrinologists and diabetic nutritionists, on patient compliance. Additionally, because of my media presence, I receive a regular stream of emails from diabetics who request recipes, fitness tips, etc.

17. You founded Winning Diabetes LLC, MCODE, and HCODE. MCODE invented Minesweep. A hand-held laser detector of mines. HCODE invented AMAGARA. The first non-invasive continuous glucose monitor for diabetics. HCODE invented Mindchair. An EEG-driven wheelchair. What other services/products does each company provide for customers?

Winning Diabetics, LLC is a distributor of healthy food, as well as fitness equipment, mainly to schools, hospitals and prisons. HCODE focuses primarily on medical technology and software research, design and development. MCODE does the same as HCODE, however covers all other aspects of technology development, with a heavy emphasis on artificial intelligence, and advanced sensors. Both MCODE and HCODE offer the most cutting edge tech development, from facial and iris detection, data mining via machine learning, 3D printing, robotics, EMR, cybersecurity design and development, and more. A full list of services can be found at http://www.mhcode.tech. All three companies are registered US government contractors and offer services worldwide.

18. What initiatives and accomplishments within this personal and professional work means the most to you?

Creating financial opportunities for talented developers worldwide is very rewarding to me. Disseminating information that helps diabetics and pre-diabetics improve their quality of life is very rewarding to me I am presently working on a project that utilizes Apple’s ResearchKit. The project will create an OpenSource platform for developers, to further the understanding of PTSD in military veterans, its correlates, and its relation to social context. This will take the form of a mobile app, utilizing Apple’s HealthKit, and various iPhone sensors as well as other datasources. I am very excited about this project.

19. What does the future hold for diabetes in the health, medical, and wellness domains?

A strong focus will be via technology, mainly wearables, mobile apps, and sensor-based invasive and non-invasive solutions. Human health solutions in general will be very much digitalized.

20. Finally, what do the near and far future for technological disruption and diabetes advocacy hold for you?

Near future: I am aggressively pursuing governmental, NGO and private sector clients for MCODE and HCODE advanced disruptive technology projects. The team is doing a ton of research and development in the areas of remote sensor technology, galvanic vestibular in particular. With regard to my diabetes advocacy, I will continue to consult with my network of health professionals to help create solutions for diabetic patient compliance. Far future: I plan to take MCODE & HCODE public, with a wide variety of ground-breaking patented disruptive technology and software solutions. With regard to diabetic advocacy, I will definitely start a foundation which provides free diabetic testing materials and medical solutions for patients in need worldwide.

Thank you for your time, Ms. Mwanga.

Thank you for the opportunity.

Bibliography

  1. Dickens, A. (2013, July 3). Diabetes-Fighting Secrets from a Former Fat Chef. Retrieved from http://spryliving.com/articles/diabetes-fighting-secrets-from-a-former-fat-chef/.
  2. Dickens, A. (2014, March 30). Five Tips from a Diabetic Chef. Retrieved from http://americanprofile.com/articles/five-tips-from-a-diabetic-chef-video/.
  3. Everyday Health. (2015). About The Author: Elizabeth Mwanga. Retrieved from http://www.everydayhealth.com/columns/elizabeth-mwanga-smart-healthy-diabetes-living/author/emwanga1/.
  4. Fritz, J. (2012, April 20). Defeating diabetes demands lifestyle changes, conscious eating. Retrieved from http://www.examiner.com/article/defeating-diabetes-demands-lifestyle-changes-conscious-eating.
  5. Gowo, R. (2014). Five Tips from a Diabetic Chef. Retrieved from http://whoisdiabetes.blogspot.ca/2014/04/five-tips-from-diabetic-chef.html.
  6. Levitt, S. (n.d.). A Better Body at 36 Than at 20. Retrieved from http://www.more.com/a-better-body-diabetes-diet.
  7. Mayo Clinic. (2015). Mayo Clinic. Retrieved fromhttp://www.mayoclinic.org/.
  8. Mwanga, E. (2015, June 30). First Lady of the United States of America, Michelle Obama: Instagram ‘Hate’. Retrieved from https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/first-lady-united-states-america-michelle-obama-instagram-mwanga.
  9. Mwanga, E. (2010, October 12). The Tale of a Diva Diabetic. Retrieved from http://www.healthywomen.org/content/blog-entry/tale-diva-diabetic.
  10. Padgett, T. (2009, November 2). Elizabeth Mwanga: ‘Almost losing my life motivated me to lose weight’. Retrieved from http://www.newsday.com/news/health/dropping-lbs-elizabeth-mwanga-of-queens-village-lost-105-pounds-1.1558053?firstfree=yes.
  11. Summerland, C. (2012, April).Real Women Series: Surviving diabetes and obesity and inspiring others to do the same. Retrieved from http://www.yourbeautyadvisor.com/2012/04/real-women-series-surviving-diabetes-and-obesity-and-inspiring-others-to-do-the-same/.
  12. Weiss, L. (2013, December 11). On The Verge Of A Diabetic Coma, She Realized She Couldn’t Wait Any Longer To Take Off The Weight. Retrieved from http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/11/on-the-verge-of-a-diabeti_n_4414602.html.
  13. Williamsburg Therapy+Wellness. (2012, May 15). How Are Diabetes And Mental Health Connected?. Retrieved from http://www.williamsburgtherapyandwellness.com/blog/2012/05/16/how-are-diabetes-and-mental-health-connected.

Appendix I: Interview with Louis Kayanda Mwangaguhunga on Daniel Moynihan by Elizabeth Mwanga

EM: Elizabeth Mwanga; LKM: Louis Kayanda Mwangaguhunga.

EM: How exactly did Senator Moynihan help our family establish residency in the United States?
LKM: Because I was the last Ambassador to the United Nations before Idi Amin was overthrown, our situation was very complicated. Although I was a career diplomat (no political ties to any of the ‘regimes’ who were in power – for over 20 years) – it did not matter. At the time, Idi Amin was a brutal dictator who had absolutely no regard for international law, and was widely known throughout the world for his human rights atrocities and violations. Anyone affiliated with his administration was either killed or blacklisted from Western countries. So, Senator Moynihan did take a risk by doing the following:

– working with our attorney to secure me a job in the United States, to ensure my ability to apply for legal residency for myself and my family.

– worked with our attorney to lobby in Washington to pass the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986, which stated that any ‘alien’ living and working in he United States before 1982 would be eligible for temporary residency. “This bill gave unauthorized aliens the opportunity to apply and gain legal status if they met mandated requirements. The fate or status of all those who applied fell into the hands of “Designated Entities” and finally the U.S. Attorney General. Applicants had to prove that they lived and maintained a continuous physical presence in the U.S. since January 1st, 1982, possess a clean criminal record, and provide proof of registration within the Selective Service. Moreover, applicants had to meet minimal knowledge requirements in U.S. history, government and the English language or be pursuing a course of study approved by the Attorney General.” http://library.uwb.edu/static/usimmigration/1986_immigration_reform_and_control_act.html

EM: When you were seeking to obtain residency in the United States, after fearing for the safety of our family, how did you get in contact with Patrick Moynihan?
LKM: It was thru our pastor at the Roman Catholic church we attended. I sought assistance thru the church and he suggested that our complex situation needed to be intervened by the then NY Senator, Patrick Moynihan. We were then connected thru our attorney and our pastor. Senator Moynihan remembered me from our days working together at the United Nations in the mid 1970’s when he was a permanent representative to the United Nations. We were friendly and I had mentioned that given the political climate in Uganda at the time, would probably in the future need to seek refuge in a Western country. I suppose that may have jarred the Senator’s memory, and when called upon to assist in our family obtaining legal residency, he chose to help us.

ME: Why do you believe Senator Moynihan took an interest in helping our family legally immigrate to the United States, at such a precarious time in American-Ugandan diplomatic relations?

LKM: Well, first, there was the fact that we previously worked together in the United Nations. We were also both Roman Catholic. I received a BSc in Economics from Queen’s University in Belfast, Ireland; Senator Moynihan was of Irish descent. We also both received degrees from the London School of Economics & Political Science (LSE). So you see, even though we both were raised in very different environments — we bonded through our career paths as well as our moral code.

ME: What was Senator Moynihan’s disposition?
LKM: Senator Moynihan was among the most objective diplomats I have ever dealt with. He was an intellectual. 

Appendix II: Footnotes

[1] Founder & CEO, HCODE; Founder & CEO, MCODE; Founder & CEO, Winning Diabetes LLC; Disruptive Technology Entrepreneur; Diabetes Advocate.

[2]  Individual Publication Date: July 1, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-elizabeth-mwanga; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2016 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] B.A., Politics, New York University.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Elizabeth Mwanga.

[5] Everyday Health. (2015). About The Author: Elizabeth Mwanga. Retrieved from http://www.everydayhealth.com/columns/elizabeth-mwanga-smart-healthy-diabetes-living/author/emwanga1/.

[6] Weiss, L. (2013, December 11). On The Verge Of A Diabetic Coma, She Realized She Couldn’t Wait Any Longer To Take Off The Weight. Retrieved from http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/11/on-the-verge-of-a-diabeti_n_4414602.html.

[7] Dickens, A. (2013, July 3). Diabetes-Fighting Secrets from a Former Fat Chef. Retrieved from http://spryliving.com/articles/diabetes-fighting-secrets-from-a-former-fat-chef/.

[8] Padgett, T. (2009, November 2). Elizabeth Mwanga: ‘Almost losing my life motivated me to lose weight’. Retrieved from http://www.newsday.com/news/health/dropping-lbs-elizabeth-mwanga-of-queens-village-lost-105-pounds-1.1558053?firstfree=yes.

[9] Levitt, S. (n.d.). A Better Body at 36 Than at 20. Retrieved from http://www.more.com/a-better-body-diabetes-diet.

[10] Mwanga, E. (2010, October 12). The Tale of a Diva Diabetic. Retrieved from http://www.healthywomen.org/content/blog-entry/tale-diva-diabetic.

[11] Dickens, A. (2014, March 30). Five Tips from a Diabetic Chef. Retrieved from http://americanprofile.com/articles/five-tips-from-a-diabetic-chef-video/.

[12] Fritz, J. (2012, April 20). Defeating diabetes demands lifestyle changes, conscious eating. Retrieved from http://www.examiner.com/article/defeating-diabetes-demands-lifestyle-changes-conscious-eating.

[13] Summerland, C. (2012, April).Real Women Series: Surviving diabetes and obesity and inspiring others to do the same. Retrieved from http://www.yourbeautyadvisor.com/2012/04/real-women-series-surviving-diabetes-and-obesity-and-inspiring-others-to-do-the-same/.

[14] Gowo, R. (2014). Five Tips from a Diabetic Chef. Retrieved from http://whoisdiabetes.blogspot.ca/2014/04/five-tips-from-diabetic-chef.html.

[15] Williamsburg Therapy+Wellness. (2012, May 15). How Are Diabetes And Mental Health Connected?. Retrieved from http://www.williamsburgtherapyandwellness.com/blog/2012/05/16/how-are-diabetes-and-mental-health-connected.

[16] Type 2 Diabetes (2014), from the Mayo Clinic, describes Type 2 diabetes, as follows:

Type 2 diabetes, once known as adult-onset or noninsulin-dependent diabetes, is a chronic condition that affects the way your body metabolizes sugar (glucose), your body’s important source of fuel.

With type 2 diabetes, your body either resists the effects of insulin — a hormone that regulates the movement of sugar into your cells — or doesn’t produce enough insulin to maintain a normal glucose level.

More common in adults, type 2 diabetes increasingly affects children as childhood obesity increases. There’s no cure for type 2 diabetes, but you may be able to manage the condition by eating well, exercising and maintaining a healthy weight. If diet and exercise aren’t enough to manage your blood sugar well, you also may need diabetes medications or insulin therapy.

Mayo Clinic Staff. (2014, July 24). Type 2 Diabetes. Retrieved from http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/type-2-diabetes/basics/definition/con-20031902.

[17] Type 1 Diabetes (2014), from the Mayo Clinic, describes Type 1 diabetes, as follows:

Type 1 diabetes, once known as juvenile diabetes or insulin-dependent diabetes, is a chronic condition in which the pancreas produces little or no insulin, a hormone needed to allow sugar (glucose) to enter cells to produce energy. The far more common type 2 diabetes occurs when the body becomes resistant to insulin or doesn’t make enough insulin.

Various factors may contribute to type 1 diabetes, including genetics and exposure to certain viruses. Although type 1 diabetes usually appears during childhood or adolescence, it also can begin in adults.

Despite active research, type 1 diabetes has no cure. But it can be managed. With proper treatment, people with type 1 diabetes can expect to live longer, healthier lives than did people with type 1 diabetes in the past.

Mayo Clinic Staff (2014, August 2). Type 1 Diabetes. Retrieved from http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/type-1-diabetes/basics/definition/con-20019573.

[18] Weiss, L. (2013, December 11). On The Verge Of A Diabetic Coma, She Realized She Couldn’t Wait Any Longer To Take Off The Weight. Retrieved from http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/11/on-the-verge-of-a-diabeti_n_4414602.html.

[19] Dickens, A. (2013, July 3). Diabetes-Fighting Secrets from a Former Fat Chef. Retrieved from http://spryliving.com/articles/diabetes-fighting-secrets-from-a-former-fat-chef/.

[20] LinkedIn. (2015). Elizabeth Mwanga. Retrieved from https://www.linkedin.com/in/elizabethmwanga.

[21] Ibidem.

[22] First Lady of the United States of America, Michelle Obama: Instagram ‘Hate’ (2015) Mwanga states:

I follow the First Lady of the United States on Instagram (I only follow a handful), not only because I am a supporter of our President, but also because of he fact that she has done SO much for veterans, the obesity crises in our nation, is a staunch advocate of healthy living, is IVY educated and an all around awesome person.

Recently, I have been reading comments on her posts, which are always uplifting, she travels the globe and gives light to causes which many are unaware of. Recent comments on her Instagram which ave aught my attention are extremely racist, vulgar and all around disgusting.

My father, who was a high level diplomat under the reign of a very dangerous dictator, defeceted to America, which ultimately saved our immediate family’s life. I will forever be grateful to America…and beyond the crises’ facing us currently, we will prevail.

This sickens me and makes me sad about the future of our society. How anyone can post such filth about a woman who’s mission in life in life to UPLIFT people…is beyond me.

Please people, spread love, not hate.

Mwanga, E. (2015, June 30). First Lady of the United States of America, Michelle Obama: Instagram ‘Hate’. Retrieved from https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/first-lady-united-states-america-michelle-obama-instagram-mwanga.

Appendix III: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part Four) [Online].July 2016; 11(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-elizabeth-mwanga.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, July 1). An interview with Elizabeth Mwanga. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-elizabeth-mwanga.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An interview with Elizabeth Mwanga. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A, July. 2016. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-elizabeth-mwanga>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An interview with Elizabeth Mwanga.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-elizabeth-mwanga.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An interview with Elizabeth Mwanga.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A (July 2016). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-elizabeth-mwanga.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An interview with Elizabeth Mwanga’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-elizabeth-mwanga>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An interview with Elizabeth Mwanga‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-elizabeth-mwanga.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An interview with Elizabeth Mwanga.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11.A (2016):July. 2016. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-elizabeth-mwanga>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An interview with Elizabeth Mwanga [Internet]. (2016, July); 11(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-elizabeth-mwanga.

License and Copyright

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Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

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© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2016. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2016-06-22

An interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part Four)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 11.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Seven)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: June 22, 2016

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2016

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 4,121

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

An interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc. He discusses: real religious/mystical experiences; recounted experiences; The Grand Architect of the Universe; attributes of the The Grand Architect of the Universe; evidences and arguments; freemasonic community thought on agnostics, atheists, humanists, irreligious, non-believers, and skeptics; purported psychic ability and its means; psychic activity compared to the more pragmatic field of intelligence measurement; varied background influence on perception of the future; thoughts on the future; Reiki;  reasonable response to skeptics; point to skeptics; ten steps followed by a particular topic and what interrelates the advisements; reports from them; foundational, driving, philosophy for life’s research; future of the gifted population in relation to society; near and far future of the gifted population in general; influences; inspirations; and emergences in the near and far future.

Keywords: Jason Betts, psychic, skeptic, The Grand Architect of the Universe, World Genius Directory.

An Interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part Four)[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

43. What counts as real religious/mystical experiences?

You can’t use ‘real’ and ‘religious’ in the same sentence! Especially when talking about internal and personl experiences! My, goodness. Wittgenstein would be turning in his grave, the poor thing! As best as I can manage, under the limitations of language, meaning and understanding, this concept of a mystical experience is ‘something that affects the person with knowledge’. It gives him something to think about, something to work on and understand, so that when that oyster of datum is opened, the flesh of information threshed, the dross of excretion excised, the pearl of wisdom remaining is adorned, gifted, accepted and absorbed. It changes him, and no-one else was there to share it, only him, in his internal world, and cannot be elsewhere-evidenced. This is the Revealing of the Mysteries. Now, of religious, that’s everything else, because religion serves it’s own master, Control, the brother of Truth, and while Truth seeks the solice of nature and beauty, Control seeks the power of people and policy. In saying, religious experience is either the mind creating what it wants to see, or a mystical experience being portrayed to the religious believer in a manner that their brainwashed minds can accept, such that their belief system filters and edits the true insights that may appear, but still illude them due to their choice to believe other people’s truth and not the nature of reality itself, with all of its Truth and Beauty. Such poor fools, they. Pity them.

44. Can you recount some in detail?

Yes.

45. Freemasons look at the universe, observe structure, infer design, necessitate some designer, and call this designer The Supreme Being or The Grand Architect of the Universe. Does The Supreme Being in some form exist to you?

Yes. The best definition of my deity is pan-enthiesm, where ‘God’ is seperate from the Universe but still operates within it, all through it, but is still seperate from it, in essence. ‘God’ first, Universe second, then God in the Universe third. This also alludes to the concept of a divine plan, an order of Platonic Forms and the spiritual structure of forms and beings upon Aristotle’s Ladder. For discussion, do these potential forms attract us forward to a greater evolution or do they just wait patiently for us to get there? God knows.

46. What attributes comprise The Grand Architect of the Universe to you?

To typify the GAOTU as human is an anthropormorphic error. God is incomphrensible, to the infinite limit of understanding, and as such, cannot be so simply defined – God may as well be a rock. Or a paper aeroplane. Or both, even. The point is that we revere God as a Force and Intelligence, not a virtuous being. Yes, we have virtues and intelligence, and the lessons teach us to use them, but God, well, that’s another matter. God is ‘the connexion’ of all things to all things, which sounds very quantum to me. God is not a person nor a personality. God might turn out to be some chaotic strange-attractor for the matrix we call the Universe, or perhaps a set of Gödellian Exceptions that are not mutually-exclusive, or even a set of quantum equations that allow self-observation without effect, and hence, a true pure consciousness.

47. What arguments and evidences most convince you?

Of what? Existance is, so I believe that. Consciousness is, so I believe that too. And rocks. Especially rocks. And especially rocks when I’m not wearing shoes along the beach. I believe that no conviction is necessary. Each truth should stand on its own merit, and stand and fall as such; prove it true or let it go. If there is some kind of phenomena then surely it can be tested and eventually understood, ad infinitum, to understand God and the Universe we inhabit – this may take some time. Considering the advances made in the last one hundred years it may not be as long as we think, but surely, it is a thing worth working towards. To be clear: God, the Universe, Consciousness and FTL-communication (EPR Interpretation) – I see these things as being the One-and-the-Same. The Mystery Schools of the West and East have some of these Truths, which some have been proven true, and others will follow. How and where they manifest is anyone’s guess, but I am damn sure it’s going to be really very interesting.

48. What does the freemasonic community think of agnostics, atheists, humanists, irreligious, non-believers, and skeptics?

Nothing. We don’t talk about them. We don’t consider them and they do not form any part of policy, instruction or teaching. We do not discriminate them in any way, unlike the way most religions do, other than they can’t join. Can’t see the Light if they ain’t got no eyes, see?

49. You work as a psychic. Does this purported ability occur through hidden realms, through better intuition than others, or another means than these two common explanations?

It’s not purported by me and I take offense at the insinuation. I demonstrate psychic ability and do it very well. My information comes only from my mind and not from any other mundane source.

50. How do you reconcile the ethereal realm of psychic activity with the more pragmatic field of intelligence measurement?

I don’t. They are seperate. I have wondered, however, that my unique set of abilities might be the mix of three factors: a near-death experience, Asperger’s autism, and my two decades of building my Reiki power.

51. You have expertise in ethereal and practical realms. How does your varied background influence how you see the future?

I think you misunderstand how psychic powers work – at least, for me. Seeing in the ethereal realm is like seeing in other dimensions as defined by mathematics as used in science, but still from the observer’s current perspective. The ‘future’ is a set of probabilities and there is no definite future. Many answers from psychics that seem clear and definite are based on truths currently resting inside the concerned parties. Making predictions relies on sensing the variables and ‘sitting with it’ until your subconscious can calculate the most likely outcome. There is research on this called ‘superpredictors’, which is not psychic at all, but which many psychics have intuitively as they get asked to perform this mundane task all the time. Psychics’ real ability is to know many things – many factual items of data, and their relevance – without being told, just from listening or seeing their client for an instant. This is beyond questioning.

52. How do you think the future will play out?

Slowly, like it always does.

53. You have qualifications in Reiki. How does Reiki work?

Now that is a book I’m writing, so I don’t want to spoil it here. The simplest explanation I can give is electro-dermal transmission of neural-para-electricity. It can be taught to anyone from a properly-qualified Sensei such as myself. By touching a person and connecting to their nervous system one can sense organ failure in another, such as colour-blindness, taste malfunctions and also favourite tastes, high/mid/low range deafness in each ear, heart problems, inflammation in internal organs (lungs, intestines, liver, etc), plus the emotional states of the person and their psychological drives. This is done without any information from the recipient by placing one hand on their back over their spine.

54. Proper skeptics, or even cynics masquerading as skeptics, harbor doubts as to the efficacy of Reiki, psychic abilities, and online high-range intelligence tests and their respective communities – publications too. Burden of proof resides in both sides of the issue, skeptics and practitioners – by definition, for their legitimacy. What seems like the reasonable response on each topic to you?

I am open to being researched. I think that’s pretty reasonable. One should always test what one is buying. Most of my students take my class because they sit with me for five minutes and with them silent and my hand on their back, they feel the Reiki flow from my hand to different parts of their body while I also tell me those body parts, their physical and emotional problems, and other claircognient thoughts.

55. Do skeptics have any point to you?

No, not that I’ve had any evidence about.

56. You proposed sets of ten steps followed by a particular topic.[5],[6],[7],[8],[9],[10],[11],[12],[13],[14],[15],[16],[17],[18],[19],[20],[21],[22],[23] What interrelates these topics/advisements?

My website, www.emeraldalchemy.com. Seriously, they are some basic life strageties that people suggested I publish online so others could benefit. I wrote those in the year 2000.

57. What reports came back from them?

Letters of thanks and appreciation. The website gets 500,000 hits per year.

58. What foundational philosophy drives this life’s research?

The desire to be the best I can be; to be me, to be true, to know.

59. Where do you see the future of the gifted population in relation to society?

I would hope that the intelligencia of the future would be greater respected and useful and more greatly participatory in creating a better future for the survival of our planet and as many of its life forms as possible. Sadly, I cannot see this happening with the currently political structure of capitalism and political economics, international wafare, religion and the building pressure of resources-rarity caused by increasing population growth.

60. What about the near and far future of the gifted population in general?

I would hope that the higher-IQ population community of Earth continues to work together and support each other, until such time that it can actually do something significant, such as enter the global political area, either directly in collective or by individual infiltration. There are so many challenges facing us over the next two decades I fear that much of what we are talking about will become irrelevent and that the fate of the future will rest with those not best equipped to deal with it.

61. Who most influenced you?

I have had many mentors, like my parents, Haydn & Ilona Betts for their wisdom and understanding, Simon Turnbull of the Australian Psychics Association, Bill Pearson of the CHI-MED College of Natural Medicine, Ken Atherton of the Pindari Herb Farm and Hatton & Laws Pharmacy, John Donaldson of Tasmania University Math Department, but mostly, I’d say would be Anton Jayasuriya of the Open International University of Sri Lanka, who taught me ‘The Art of Healing’ but also of that of people. He was a truly great man. I would have loved to continue to work and learn in his hospital in Colombo.

62. Who inspires you?

My wife, now deceased, continues to inspire me. She was a complete woman, full of grace and elegance, and always was understanding of the real situation and its consequences. She taught me so much and still does. Her values were perfect and she always gave the best advice. I am a pretty good counsellor and philosopher but she really did know a thing or two about people and truth, by golly, she did. And I miss her so very much.

63. What will emerge in the near and far future for you?

More time, I expect, if the past is anything to go by. Or maybe not, chao semper.

Thank you for your time, Dr. Betts.

Bibliography

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Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Abbot, The Order of the Mystic Rose; Member, HOTA High IQ Societies; Member, Helliq Society; Member, Prometheus Society; Member, Australian Mensa; Member, The Triple Nine Society; Member, Australian Psychics Association; Member, Masonic Grand Lodge of Tasmania; Member, Infinity International Society; Member, Triple Nine Society; Member, ISI-Society; Australia’s #1 Distributor (2007), ForeverGreen’s FrequenSea Health Tonic; Owner (2004), Emerald Alchemy, Mail-Order Vitamins, Minerals, Antioxidants; Owner (2000), Taslife Intl, Mail-Order Vitamins, Minerals, Antioxidants; Self Employed (1998), Acupuncture, Massage, Reiki, Nutritional Therapist; High School Teacher (Science/Maths, 1996), Dept. of Education, Tasmania; Editor/Publisher (1995), Tasmania’s Alternative & Natural Therapy Directory; Founder/Organiser (1995), Tasmanian Psychic Expos; Started Teaching Magical Tarot (1993), Numerology and the Hebrew Qabala; Started Reading Playing Cards (1990); Professional Magical Tarot (1992); Member of the Order of Merit (2015), Supreme Council of the Thirty-third Degree; Knight Kadosh Thirtieth Degree (2012), Holy Grail Soverign Chapter, Tasmania; Most Wise Soverign (2012), Holy Sepulchre Soverign Chapter, Tasmania; Knight of St John the Evangelist (2004), Patriarchal Council of Scotland; Knight of Rome and the Red Cross of Constantine (2004), Grand Imperial Council of Scotland; Knight of HRM and the Rosy Cross (2003), Grand Lodge of the Royal Order of Scotland.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 22, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2016 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Diploma of Homoeopathy (Dip. Hom, 2001), Medicina Alternativa University (Sri Lanka); Doctor of Philosophy (PhD, 1999), Medicina Alternativa University (Sri Lanka); Registered Marriage Celebrant (1999), Order of the Mystic Rose, Inc. (A4699); Founder/Abbot (1998), Order of the Mystic Rose, Inc. (Tas. #3885); Diploma of Metaphysical Counselling (Dip.MC, 1998), Order of the Mystic Rose (Tasmania); Diploma of Acupuncture (Dip.Ac, 1998), Medicina Alternativa University (Sri Lanka); Certificate of Membership (1998), Acupuncture Foundation of Sri Lanka; Doctor of Science (Honoris Causa, 1997)(DSc), Medicina Alternativa University; Reiki Sensei (Master/Teacher) Certificate (1997), Lee-Anne Bennett (SA); Post Grad. Diploma of Metaphysical Science (Dip.MSc, 1997), Lindlahr College (WA); Bachelor of Science (BSc, 1996), University of Tasmania (Mathematics/Philosophy); Diploma of Remedial Massage (Dip.RM, 1995), Chi-Med College (Tasmania); Certificates in Iridology, Shiatsu and Swedish Massage (1995), Chi-Med College (Tasmania); Advanced Certificate (1992), Usui Method of Reiki Healing; Basic Certificate (1991), Usui Method of Reiki Healing; Certificate (1991), Quantum Dynamics Rebirthing Technique; 30th Degree Freemason; Buddhu Reiki Shihan; Winner (2010), Tasmanian Psychic of the Year, Australian Psychics Association; Winner (2008), Australian Psychic of the Year, Australian Psychic Association; Founder, Tasmanian Psychic Expos; First Principal, Royal Arch Chapter (2003), Supreme Grand Royal Arch Chapter of Scotland; Right Worshipful Master, Mark Lodge (2003), Supreme Grand Royal Arch Chapter of Scotland; Master (2002), Tasmanian Union Craft Lodge, Grand Lodge of Tasmanial; Rites of Druidism (2002), Anglesea Lodge, United Ancient Order of Druids, Victoria; Cross Degrees (2002), Supreme Grand Royal Arch Chapter of Scotland; Knight of the Pelican and Eagle (2001), Supreme Council of the 33rd Degree of Scotland; Royal Master Degree (2001), Supreme Grand Royal Arch Chapter of Scotland; Royal Ark Mariners Degree (2000), Supreme Grand Royal Arch Chapter of Scotland; Royal Arch Degree (1998), Supreme Grand Royal Arch Chapter of Scotland; Grand Lodge Certificate (1996), Grand Lodge of Ancient Free & Accepted Masons of Tasmania; Discoverer (2012), hexagonally symmetrical circles sequence (OEIS A218146); Discoverer, base-prime integer sequences (OEIS A21551, A126359); Founder, Tasmanian Natural Therapy Directory; Editor, World Genius Directory; Editor, IQ Societies List; IQ Test Constructor, Lux25, WIT, Mathema, and Asterix; Creator, Betts Square Arithmetic Tool and Number Representation, The Betts Virtuegrams; 30th Anniversary Psychic Ambassador Award (2013), Australian Psychics Association; Australia’s Top Psychic, ABC TV’s Unbelievable, Episode One; TV Star Psychic (2008), Channel 7’s ‘The One’, Fox Studios Sydney; Founder, EarthHeart.com.au; Member, Mensa International.

[4] Images/photographs/portraits/sketches courtesy of Dr. Jason Betts.

[5] Betts, J. (n.d.). 10 Steps to Beauty Inside and Out. Retrieved from http://www.emeraldalchemy.com/creations/philosophy/beauty/.

[6] Betts, J. (n.d.). 10 Steps to Becoming a Romantic Love Magnet. Retrieved from http://www.emeraldalchemy.com/creations/philosophy/romantic_love_magnet/.

[7] Betts, J. (n.d.). 10 Steps to Becoming Smarter. Retrieved from http://www.emeraldalchemy.com/creations/philosophy/becoming_smarter/.

[8] Betts, J. (n.d.). 10 Steps to Confidence and Personal Power. Retrieved from http://www.emeraldalchemy.com/creations/philosophy/confidence_personal_power/.

[9] Betts, J. (n.d.). 10 Steps to Effective Communication. Retrieved from http://www.emeraldalchemy.com/creations/philosophy/effective_communication/.

[10] Betts, J. (n.d.). 10 Steps to Enlightenment. Retrieved from http://www.emeraldalchemy.com/creations/philosophy/enlightenment/.

[11] Betts, J. (n.d.). 10 Steps to Financial Wealth. Retrieved from http://www.emeraldalchemy.com/creations/philosophy/financial_wealth/.

[12] Betts, J. (n.d.). 10 Steps to Fixing the World. Retrieved from http://www.emeraldalchemy.com/creations/philosophy/fixing_world/.

[13] Betts, J. (n.d.). 10 Steps to Life Improvement. Retrieved from http://www.emeraldalchemy.com/creations/philosophy/life_improvement/.

[14] Betts, J. (n.d.). 10 Steps to Losing Weight. Retrieved from http://www.emeraldalchemy.com/creations/philosophy/losing_weight/.

[15] Betts, J. (n.d.). 10 Steps to Quitting Smoking. Retrieved from http://www.emeraldalchemy.com/creations/philosophy/quitting_smoking/.

[16] Betts, J. (n.d.). 10 Steps to Perfect Eyesight. Retrieved from http://www.emeraldalchemy.com/creations/philosophy/perfect_eyesight/.

[17] Betts, J. (n.d.). 10 Steps to Perfect Health. Retrieved from http://www.emeraldalchemy.com/creations/philosophy/perfect_health/.

[18] Betts, J. (n.d.). 10 Steps to Psychic Powers. Retrieved from http://www.emeraldalchemy.com/creations/philosophy/psychic_powers/.

[19] Betts, J. (n.d.). 10 Steps to Raising Children. Retrieved from http://www.emeraldalchemy.com/creations/philosophy/raising_children/.

[20] Betts, J. (n.d.). 10 Steps to Staying Alive. Retrieved from http://www.emeraldalchemy.com/creations/philosophy/staying_alive/.

[21] Betts, J. (n.d.). 10 Steps to Successful Dating. Retrieved from http://www.emeraldalchemy.com/creations/philosophy/successful_dating/.

[22] Betts, J. (n.d.). 10 Steps to Zen Chainsaw Safety. Retrieved from http://www.emeraldalchemy.com/creations/philosophy/zen_chainsaw_safety/.

[23] Betts, J. (n.d.). 1,000 Year Old Super Health Foods. Retrieved from http://www.emeraldalchemy.com/creations/philosophy/super_health_foods/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part Four) [Online].June 2016; 11(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-jason-betts-b-sc-dip-m-sc-ph-d-d-sc-emerald-alchemist-part-four.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, June 22). An interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part Four). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-jason-betts-b-sc-dip-m-sc-ph-d-d-sc-emerald-alchemist-part-four.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part Four). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A, June. 2016. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-jason-betts-b-sc-dip-m-sc-ph-d-d-sc-emerald-alchemist-part-four>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-jason-betts-b-sc-dip-m-sc-ph-d-d-sc-emerald-alchemist-part-four.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A (June 2016). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-jason-betts-b-sc-dip-m-sc-ph-d-d-sc-emerald-alchemist-part-four.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part Four)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-jason-betts-b-sc-dip-m-sc-ph-d-d-sc-emerald-alchemist-part-four>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part Four)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-jason-betts-b-sc-dip-m-sc-ph-d-d-sc-emerald-alchemist-part-four.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part Four).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11.A (2016):June. 2016. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-jason-betts-b-sc-dip-m-sc-ph-d-d-sc-emerald-alchemist-part-four>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part Four) [Internet]. (2016, June); 11(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-jason-betts-b-sc-dip-m-sc-ph-d-d-sc-emerald-alchemist-part-four.

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Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2016. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2016-06-15

An interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part Three)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 11.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Seven)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: June 15, 2016

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2016

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,254

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

An interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc. He discusses: possible reasons for smart people joining the high-IQ world and high-IQ testing; reasons they should join; serving exceptional intellectual and creative talent; provisions for the gifted populations; inculcation of prosocial values for the gifted individual and society; convincing reason to provide for this sector of society; assisting the gifted population; responsibilities of the gifted and talented towards society; definition of genius; hastening discovery of the world’s geniuses; accidental repetition of the question on definition of genius; genius in an era with technology making everyone smarter; impressive intelligence tests; definition of the spiritual; the heart of valid spiritual traditions; personal interest in joining chapters, councils, lodges, and orders; important lessons from the chapters, councils, lodges, and orders; and unification of mystic traditions across culture, geography, and time.

Keywords: geniuses, high-IQ, Jason Betts, World Genius Directory.

An Interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part Three)[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

25. What might motivate smart people to join the high-IQ world and high-IQ testing?

Curiosity and the search for friendship on an intellectual basis. Self-knowledge is a powerful thing and many find this IQ a part of their process, learning about themselves, their abilities, and also the social side that is available with it. Some stay, some leave, some just visit when they feel the need – but we’re always here. 🙂

26. Why should smart people join the high-IQ world and high-IQ testing?

They shouldn’t. They can if they want to, but there’s no judgement they should. Most smart folk know they’re smart and don’t need an IQ test to prove it, which is a bit of a pity because the rest of the world – and especially those in HiQ World – would be really interested. High-IQ testing is an ever-growing and evolving field, with new tests, types of tests and theories of intelligence always being produced – that’s not going away, just because it’s really interesting!

27. How can we best serve those of exceptional intellectual and creative talent?

I think the answer to that is the same as if you’re asking about any group of people on Earth: with honesty, compassion and helpfulness, so they can grow and thrive, develop and evolve, just like any other class of people. I would hope, though, and wish, that intellectuals would have a bigger say in the running and management of this planet. So far, the existing oligarchy isn’t doing such a good job. Likewise, religion should be kept separate from politics, and never have anything to do with policy. Time is short.

28. Many organizations provide for the needs of the moderately gifted ability sectors of the general population, most often adults and sometimes children. However, few provide for the needs of children (and adults) in the high, profound, exceptional, or ‘unmeasurable’ ability sectors of the general population. (Of course, this does not mean pity or special privileges for those with the advantage of gifts and talents in life, especially early life.) Some organizations and societies provide forums, retreats, journals, intelligence tests, literature, or outlets for the highest ability sub-populations. What can individuals, organizations, and societies do to provide for the gifted population?

I think that’s a bit like the previous question, and the answer is the onus of each specific organisation. For example, in Australian Mensa, we have a Gifted Childrens Fund, which grants successful applicants (including non-members) financial assistance to achieve specific goals they could not afford themselves.

29. From the vantage of the adult and senior gifted set, how might we inculcate prosocial values most net beneficial to both the gifted individual and society?

Careful now, this might lead to the Dark Side of Philosophy, a.k.a. religion. Seriously, teach all kids philosophy. Get them to think for themselves, and question their thinking, intentions, consequences. There’s so much good, basic and useful philosophy from many cultures one doesn’t have to look far to find thinking tools that are useful for teaching children to think, and then teach, thinking and teaching.

30. What argument most convinces you of the need to provide for this sector of society?

Does one throw seed upon the rocky and sandy field, or upon the rich, moist and fertile soily field? If the choice is there, we chose the one with the most potential for good and consequence, the one with the higher rung upon Aristotle’s Ladder; we should teach all, help all, but where possible, help to create the bright and best possible, for those are the leaders of thought and the finest of the Human Mind, so far.

31. How can parents, mentors, educators, and policymakers assist the gifted population?

I am so glad this has started to happen. As a past educator of high school science and math I have witnessed it as a grass-roots movement of parents making choices and voices to their children’s schools and the schools and education departments responding. Of course, it was the private schools first, motivated by simple economic carrots, but of course, that did lead to a revolution of ‘gifted children’s programs’. Well, at least here in Australia!

32. What responsibilities do the gifted and talented population have towards society and culture?

Sapientia est Potentias, and of course, from Ben Parker again, “With great power comes great responsibility.” Gifted and talented are not quite the same, either, and every person has within them a knack – a thing – that they can do. Not everyone finds theirs, nor even develops it; but those that do know it, perform it, and can use that to find their place in the World and make it just that little bit better. For the moral duty, I ask you, if you have the power to help – if you could, and you know you should – would you? It’s a self-judgement and internal motive that begs the answer, and truly, it’s everyone’s own choice of freedom.

33. What defines genius to you?

One of my IQ mentors, Dr Greg Grove, says it best with the motto of his Mysterium Society: “Originality, Creativity and Ingenuity”. To me, this is to be original and unique, to create works of use and beauty, and doing it in a clever and new way that defines an intellectual perspective. Otherwise, you’re just smart, perhaps foolish, and even one of many, working in a difficult field but not achieving genius results. A genius creates things – new and wonderful things – that are just not clever, but useful, helpful, and profound, that will change the way we enjoy and experience life, enriching the human race and survival.

34. What might hasten discovery of the world’s geniuses?

IQ testing is the trite answer, but what we really have is a steady-state situation, where the flux is the number of geniuses in the world and the level is the number recognised. So, as per the rules of steady-state, there’s three main activities to maximise this and the strategy should encompass all three.  1) Create more geniuses. Do this by teaching children to think with values that are humanistic in nature, like honesty, science, reason and the creative arts, and not influenced by any ulterior motive or bias.  2) Nurture the geniuses you have, in mind and body, and cultivate and environment (or environments, be they physical centres of learning and growing, or electronic environments, like IQ societies, etc) of sharing, support and growth of their ideas, ‘genius’ (creativity, originality, ingenuity) and of course focussed on the topics and matters of need in the day.  3) Search for geniuses, in an active, ordered, arranged and determined way, with specific purpose and plan for implementation once you’ve found them. This is done via educational networks (universities), institutions for publishing excellence (Nobel, TEDx, etc) and of course there’s the societial cultus (YouTube, FaceBook, etc), including the desire of one’s self to be tested and deliberately work with IQ.

35. What defines genius to you?

Embracing the Intellectual Godhood within. Using it, and being better, creating better, evolving self.

36. Does genius matter in an era where technology makes everyone smarter than before?

Of course! Who created the technology, repairs it, and whom will make the next lot of technology?! Smart is not genius. Genius is taking stock of that you’ve got, seeing what’s there and what’s needed, and then creating something new, different, useful and brilliant that’s not been done before (no one’s thought of it yet) and create a new paradigm and set of possibilities for that situation – to open a new door, and walk through.

37. Whose intelligence tests impress you?

Well, mine, of course! I often surprise myself in creating them, be they Eureka! style moments or those created in the genius-flow, or sometimes even in the mundane mechanisms of ordered thought. To be fair, I consider my tests an art form and have created many new formats of tests, in originality, creativity and ingenuity, so I’m pretty pleased with myself. In terms of other people, there are different classes, so it’s hard to mention just one or two names. Of the old guard, Ron Hoeflin, Nik Lygeros and Paul Cooijmans are all worthy of respect and greatness, pioneers in the modern field. Of special note, Paul’s practical guidelines and statistical devices have been regarded very useful and revolutionary in the field.

38. What defines the spiritual to you?

‘The Spiritual’ is the non-physical world that intersects with humanity through our consciousness to our minds and brains, of things dead, distant and unknowable, but still within the reach of thought. In connection there is a high incidence of an awareness of an inner morality and self-awareness that may previously have been ignored in behaviour and judgements but may be ‘awakened’ due to stressful or intense events, such as near-death experiences, drugs, extreme sensory stimulation and extreme suffering.

39. What seems like the heart of valid spiritual traditions – their superset?

This is a very good question. I would say Truth and Understanding of Nature and Reality as a basis, and then, perhaps, a technology of control and mastery of that reality. As I have been taught, “Honesty is the doorway of self-knowledge” and “Before one can know everything, one must know one’s self.” Likewise, self-mastery is required before becoming a ‘Master of the Universe.’ Interestingly, Truth and Understanding and two of the three components for communication (according to I), the third being Clarity. All three are powerful metaphysical concepts which is why I write them as proper nouns.

40. You hold positions in various chapters, councils, lodges, and orders including Abbot of the The Order of the Mystic Rose, Member of the Order of Merit (2015) for the Supreme Council of the Thirty-third Degree, Knight Kadosh Thirtieth Degree (2012) for the Holy Grail Sovereign Chapter in Tasmania, Most Wise Sovereign (2012) of the Holy Sepulchre Sovereign Chapter in Tasmania,Knight of St John the Evangelist (2004) for the Patriarchal Council of Scotland, Knight of Rome and the Red Cross of Constantine (2004) for the Grand Imperial Council of Scotland, Knight of HRM and the Rosy Cross (2003) for the Grand Lodge of the Royal Order of Scotland. Where does personal interest originate for you?

My patriarchal line consists of teachers and priests for many generations, my grandfather an ordaned minister within the Anglician Church, my father lay preacher/liturgical assistant, both Freemasons. Further up is an Indian chap (5th gen) and to him I attribute my skin tone, green eyes and some innate mannerisms and memories to this cultural heritage. Specifically and directly, my interest in the Western Mystery School Tradition has been since a young age, before my near-death accident; but upon awakening my ‘other consciousness’ in that event I have memberance of other skills, other experiences, affinities for the obscure and antient … other lives. Finally, ‘I have arrived’, and am now known as Dr Jason Betts, Emerald Alchemist, as says my letterhead. My carriage is the Mystiqmobile and has its name MYSTIQ upon the plate.

41. What important lessons come from these chapters, councils, lodges, and orders for you?

Each degree has its own lesson. This is the same for most orders but also any kind of school of initiation where ‘the knowledge changes you’. This is not the same for most knowledge, which is largely information. Data may inform (or not), but knowledge changes. It creates ‘knowing’. These systems of thought and initiation guide the student into higher and higher states of being and awareness. Yes, there are requirements, but not religious ones, for free-thought and imagination are requirements, and faith, of sorts, so that the incomprehensible may be comprehended. There is a common format, across the organisations over time and space, and that is that the lessons are taught in parts, and that it’s the initiates work to integrate them into the concept-answer-solution. Even then, the fuller-wisdom does not descend until the ‘fullness’ of the lesson is integrated into their life and being – such is the way of the Western Mystery School Tradition. As an example, the first mystery comes in these symbollic parts:  1) Latin: Lux ex Tenebris,  2) Virtue: Consciousness,  3) Visual: Black and White (Chinese, the Taiji; Western: Chequers),  4) Contemplation: Knowledge and Ignorance,  5) Exercise: Personally given by the Master to the student to seek and find the nature of the concept such that it become apparent to the seeker.

42. What unites mystic traditions across culture, geography, and time?

I can only suppose that it is the fibre of their being, in structure, content and purpose, that connects them in similarity, rather than any other definition. To me, this is ‘the method of intellectual awakening’ by words of wisdom that take the initiate from hither to yon, whereas they wouldn’t take the ignorant to anywhere; these words fall only upon those with ears to hear, only upon those with eyes to see, and ne’er the unworthy nor corrupt see or hear the Truth, lest they use it for purposes malicious and dastardely.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Abbot, The Order of the Mystic Rose; Member, HOTA High IQ Societies; Member, Helliq Society; Member, Prometheus Society; Member, Australian Mensa; Member, The Triple Nine Society; Member, Australian Psychics Association; Member, Masonic Grand Lodge of Tasmania; Member, Infinity International Society; Member, Triple Nine Society; Member, ISI-Society; Australia’s #1 Distributor (2007), ForeverGreen’s FrequenSea Health Tonic; Owner (2004), Emerald Alchemy, Mail-Order Vitamins, Minerals, Antioxidants; Owner (2000), Taslife Intl, Mail-Order Vitamins, Minerals, Antioxidants; Self Employed (1998), Acupuncture, Massage, Reiki, Nutritional Therapist; High School Teacher (Science/Maths, 1996), Dept. of Education, Tasmania; Editor/Publisher (1995), Tasmania’s Alternative & Natural Therapy Directory; Founder/Organiser (1995), Tasmanian Psychic Expos; Started Teaching Magical Tarot (1993), Numerology and the Hebrew Qabala; Started Reading Playing Cards (1990); Professional Magical Tarot (1992); Member of the Order of Merit (2015), Supreme Council of the Thirty-third Degree; Knight Kadosh Thirtieth Degree (2012), Holy Grail Soverign Chapter, Tasmania; Most Wise Soverign (2012), Holy Sepulchre Soverign Chapter, Tasmania; Knight of St John the Evangelist (2004), Patriarchal Council of Scotland; Knight of Rome and the Red Cross of Constantine (2004), Grand Imperial Council of Scotland; Knight of HRM and the Rosy Cross (2003), Grand Lodge of the Royal Order of Scotland.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 15, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2016 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Diploma of Homoeopathy (Dip. Hom, 2001), Medicina Alternativa University (Sri Lanka); Doctor of Philosophy (PhD, 1999), Medicina Alternativa University (Sri Lanka); Registered Marriage Celebrant (1999), Order of the Mystic Rose, Inc. (A4699); Founder/Abbot (1998), Order of the Mystic Rose, Inc. (Tas. #3885); Diploma of Metaphysical Counselling (Dip.MC, 1998), Order of the Mystic Rose (Tasmania); Diploma of Acupuncture (Dip.Ac, 1998), Medicina Alternativa University (Sri Lanka); Certificate of Membership (1998), Acupuncture Foundation of Sri Lanka; Doctor of Science (Honoris Causa, 1997)(DSc), Medicina Alternativa University; Reiki Sensei (Master/Teacher) Certificate (1997), Lee-Anne Bennett (SA); Post Grad. Diploma of Metaphysical Science (Dip.MSc, 1997), Lindlahr College (WA); Bachelor of Science (BSc, 1996), University of Tasmania (Mathematics/Philosophy); Diploma of Remedial Massage (Dip.RM, 1995), Chi-Med College (Tasmania); Certificates in Iridology, Shiatsu and Swedish Massage (1995), Chi-Med College (Tasmania); Advanced Certificate (1992), Usui Method of Reiki Healing; Basic Certificate (1991), Usui Method of Reiki Healing; Certificate (1991), Quantum Dynamics Rebirthing Technique; 30th Degree Freemason; Buddhu Reiki Shihan; Winner (2010), Tasmanian Psychic of the Year, Australian Psychics Association; Winner (2008), Australian Psychic of the Year, Australian Psychic Association; Founder, Tasmanian Psychic Expos; First Principal, Royal Arch Chapter (2003), Supreme Grand Royal Arch Chapter of Scotland; Right Worshipful Master, Mark Lodge (2003), Supreme Grand Royal Arch Chapter of Scotland; Master (2002), Tasmanian Union Craft Lodge, Grand Lodge of Tasmanial; Rites of Druidism (2002), Anglesea Lodge, United Ancient Order of Druids, Victoria; Cross Degrees (2002), Supreme Grand Royal Arch Chapter of Scotland; Knight of the Pelican and Eagle (2001), Supreme Council of the 33rd Degree of Scotland; Royal Master Degree (2001), Supreme Grand Royal Arch Chapter of Scotland; Royal Ark Mariners Degree (2000), Supreme Grand Royal Arch Chapter of Scotland; Royal Arch Degree (1998), Supreme Grand Royal Arch Chapter of Scotland; Grand Lodge Certificate (1996), Grand Lodge of Ancient Free & Accepted Masons of Tasmania; Discoverer (2012), hexagonally symmetrical circles sequence (OEIS A218146); Discoverer, base-prime integer sequences (OEIS A21551, A126359); Founder, Tasmanian Natural Therapy Directory; Editor, World Genius Directory; Editor, IQ Societies List; IQ Test Constructor, Lux25, WIT, Mathema, and Asterix; Creator, Betts Square Arithmetic Tool and Number Representation, The Betts Virtuegrams; 30th Anniversary Psychic Ambassador Award (2013), Australian Psychics Association; Australia’s Top Psychic, ABC TV’s Unbelievable, Episode One; TV Star Psychic (2008), Channel 7’s ‘The One’, Fox Studios Sydney; Founder, EarthHeart.com.au; Member, Mensa International.

[4] Images/photographs/portraits/sketches courtesy of Dr. Jason Betts.

 

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part Three) [Online].June 2016; 11(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-jason-betts-b-sc-dip-m-sc-ph-d-d-sc-emerald-alchemist-part-three.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, June 15). An interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part Three). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-jason-betts-b-sc-dip-m-sc-ph-d-d-sc-emerald-alchemist-part-three.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part Three). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A, June. 2016. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-jason-betts-b-sc-dip-m-sc-ph-d-d-sc-emerald-alchemist-part-three>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-jason-betts-b-sc-dip-m-sc-ph-d-d-sc-emerald-alchemist-part-three.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A (June 2016). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-jason-betts-b-sc-dip-m-sc-ph-d-d-sc-emerald-alchemist-part-three.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part Three)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-jason-betts-b-sc-dip-m-sc-ph-d-d-sc-emerald-alchemist-part-three>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part Three)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-jason-betts-b-sc-dip-m-sc-ph-d-d-sc-emerald-alchemist-part-three.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11.A (2016):June. 2016. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-jason-betts-b-sc-dip-m-sc-ph-d-d-sc-emerald-alchemist-part-three>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part Three) [Internet]. (2016, June); 11(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-jason-betts-b-sc-dip-m-sc-ph-d-d-sc-emerald-alchemist-part-three.

License and Copyright

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Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2016. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2016-06-08

An interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part Two)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 11.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Seven)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: June 8, 2016

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2016

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,357

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

An interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc. He discusses: reasonable considerations of intelligence tests; advantages of online tests; disadvantages of online tests; pitfalls in measurement of intelligence and creation of intelligence tests; strengths and weaknesses of culture fair intelligence tests; definition of general intelligence; most reasonable other positions; personal hopes for high-IQ sub-population; hoped for accomplishment of IQ tests and the World Genius Directory; suffered canards of geniuses and reflection in personal and social experience; common attributes that demarcate geniuses; common characteristics among geniuses; things wrong with portrayals of geniuses in books, televisions, movies, and journalism; Internet’s alteration to the high-IQ landscape; possibility to increase IQ, intelligence, or both; and ways this might occur.

Keywords: intelligence, intelligence tests, IQ, geniuses, Jason Betts, World Genius Directory.

An Interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part Two)[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

9. Criticism exists around online intelligence tests, especially high-range online intelligence tests. Mainstream standardized general intelligence tests such as the Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale (WAIS), Raven’s Advanced Progressive Matrices (RAPM), or the Stanford-Binet Intelligence Scales, Fifth Edition (SB-5) tend not to garner criticism.

Major differences exist between the two. Mainstream intelligence tests work within the reasonable extrapolations of the normal range of the bell curve, have a high sample size, implement time limits, and require professional supervision, to name a few.

Online high-range intelligence tests work within the upper limits of reasonable bell curve sigmas at 4 to 6, even rarer, standard deviations, have low self-selected sample sizes, do not implement time limits – except, maybe, suggested limits, and do not require professional supervision, to name another related few.

Fault-finding toward mainstream intelligence tests might emerge in the form of theoretical critiques of the intelligence quotient (IQ) measurements and its purported complete isomorphism with the concept “intelligence.” Each, the WAIS, RAPM, and SB-5, seem to provide the most accurate intelligence scores. The gold-standard, so to speak.

For instance, as noted, four standard deviations remains the highest reasonable extrapolation for them. A standard deviation of 15, 16, or 24, would produce a positive four standard deviation intelligence test score of 160, 164, and 196, respectively. Statistical analysis dictates a theoretical rarity of 1 in 30,000 people. Any further reduces the possible sample from the population. America, for one example, contains an estimated 322,000,000 people.[5]

322,000,000/30,000 comes out to ~10,733.[6] In the United States, which seems to utilize 16 as its standard deviation, this would leave about 11,000 individuals with possible IQ scores of 164 or greater.[7] 11,000 people remains small in terms of the population. Even higher, some minor, and some legitimate, concerns emerge with respect to critiques about online high-range intelligence tests.

Online intelligence tests constructors appear to not have the equivalent resources, staff, and net time. This limits, in theory, their tests’ accuracies in measurement of the highest level of ability, which defines their existence, or purpose, for the most part.

From the theory, this might happen in practice too. Some online high-range tests calculate rarities into one in several million, one in several ten or hundred million, and even one in one/several billion. On face value, this can appear unreasonable. With some of this in mind, what seems like a reasonable consideration of the issue to you?

This is an ongoing issue of high-range IQ testing and also, like many things, always evolving. Not going into history, but things are looking better, in general, as long as some basic rules and regulations are kept. For starters, online testing as we currently know it, i.e. one set test of unchanging questions, is not acceptable as it is easy to cheat by multiple submissions. I am working on a version with dynamic questions (not static), but credit should be given to Marco Ripà whom has created two such tests already – truly, world firsts.

Statistical Deviation = 15 (SD15) seems to be the world standard at the moment for it’s ease of use and fitting into two structural metrics, being Mensa (130 = 100 + 15 + 15) and 15 having a factor of 5 and a semi-factor of 10.

The major point of IQ tests is to test IQ but with two extras: to test the type of intelligence that cannot be tested by standard IQ tests, and to test the range of intelligence that cannot be tested by standard IQ tests. To do this, high-range tests allow unlimited time, such that the answers should not be easily found by research, but only by thinking, and secondly – and most importantly – that no amount of thinking will unlock a specific item – but intelligence will, i.e. for any item, no amount of research nor time (practically, not including exponential experience in a finite lifetime) will reveal the correct answer for a high-range IQ test item. This is a sacrosanct truth that differentiates a difficult test and a high-range one.

10. What advantages come with online tests?[8]

The opportunity to practise doing IQ tests and usually not having to pay money for it. And the opportunity to cheat using frauduent email identities so one can claim a higher (false) score.

11. What disadvantages come with online tests?[9]

Non-accurate results due to low quality test-designs by non-geniuses, over-inflated scores by over-estimation and bad extrapolation of the data, the ability to cheat by multiple test-taking and not being able to use the score to list or join online institutions, such as the World Genius Directory.

12. What exists as some of the pitfalls in the measurement of intelligence and creation of intelligence tests in general?[10]

Not being smart enough, generally. If not that, then wise enough. If not that, then cunning. IQ is a tricky thing, like water; it flows, moves around, is solid, is fluid, has resistance, yet pushes – testing can be tricky, and so must test the force of it’s power, yet the subtlety of it’s elegance, the measure of it’s flow (fluid intelligence) and the structure of it’s firmness and grounding (crystal intelligence), and finally, test the true measure of intelligence – genius! – by way of seeing the unseen, capturing the uncapturable (by normal thinking methods) and knowing the unknowable (with current knowledge and methods). Genius is where it’s at, and IQ tests and measurement is just path and doorway into the doorway of the future of thinking.

13. Intelligence does not equate to quantitative, verbal, or written ability by necessity.[11] These remain variables, proxies. Non-verbal intelligence tests provide the possibility to tap into this for those without formal educational credentials. What strengths and weaknesses come with non-verbal/culture fair intelligence tests?[12]

As stated in the statement previous to the question, non-verbal tests offer those without language skills (either uneducated or without the relevant language or localised knowledge) a way of thinking that is either symmetric, mathematical or aesthetic in nature, and rewards them as such for appreciating it.

NVIT offer a way of expressing mathematical truths in new and interesting ways, open to intepretation and offer new pathways of cognative recognition that can be measured and appreciated. (Sagan: if it can’t be measured, it’s not Science!”) I cannot think of any negative reasons for NVIT other that the instructions, which is why I keep mine (Asterix, Xpwmatrix, Register, etc) to a minimum.

The weakness of NVIT are that they lack the subtlety of verbal language, where words can mean more than one thing, so that a lower IQ will assume one definition and an higher-IQ person will assume other definitions; also, word-play for other languages is a favourite of mine (especially Greek and Latin) as is the use of number of letters, palindromes, anagrams, Spoonerisms and the like. The point is, the smarter the person, the more they will ‘see’ with their mind – the definition of the Latin word ‘intelligere’.

14. What defines general intelligence to you?

‘The ability to see with the mind’, from the Latin.

15. Some intelligence researchers posit a general intelligence, “g.” Others posit a triplet intelligence or multiple intelligences. Of these, or other, positions, what seems the most reasonable?

I created a Theory of Mind of 10 Intelligences, of which I am yet to publish as a book, but do so at:
http://psych.iqsociety.org/typesmodes-of-intelligence. The question is loaded on the definition of ‘reasonable’, which can mean any Occam-thing that makes the most sense at that time. However, I believe there are, by example of the varieties of genius and savant, different types of genius, and thus, intelligence. Modern psychology recognises a differentiation between emotional feelings, higher judgements, basic learnt knowledge, higher rational knowledge and intuitive knowledge/judgements. Even psychic phenomena fit into this empirical schema. The thing is: reason is anything that seems reasonable, so here I will define it thus: a singular intelligence is one where a skill or talent can be describe and measured which is different to another skill or talent in nature.

16. What personal hopes come to heart with respect to the high-IQ sub-population – the highest level of ability?

Dr Jason Betts, Editor/Publisher of the World Genius Directory, will continue to work and act as such, for is long as able, and will continue to advance the field with such advancements as have already been seen and published, leading the field in innovation, education and research.

17. What do you hope to accomplish via creation of IQ tests and the World Genius Directory?[13],[14],[15]

My IQ tests started as experiments, personal testings, of what is intelligence and how one measures it. The WGD came a bit later, personally frustrated at what was available online as a resource for High IQ Societies and lists of tests, &cet. The WGD being a listing of the ‘highest of the high’ was a novel idea for making it interesting, to really see, who was who, and what was what, and how they got there. Many ethical problems had to be solved to create the WGD as it is, being that it has 5,000 unique visitors per month and ten times as many hits (2015 annual figures). Ultimately, the World Genius Directory is a directory for geniuses, those of high intelligence or just those interested in intelligence – it points them to ports of information, testing, help, society and friendship; it lists the famous (or those that desire it, lol) and those that want to be accessible and known as such. It list all of the high-IQ societies, high-IQ tests, publications of our members and even our annual Genius of the Year Awards. It is accomplished, consummatum est.

18. Geniuses suffer from canards, even outright slander, e.g. lack of social skills, inept emotional expression, and poor self-care. Does this reflect personal and social experience to you?

Since my death-experience I have grown and grown and grown. I was 5’10” for 3 years previous and then grew 8 inches over the next 8 years. Last year, I only grew 1cm, and went from 4XL to 5XL shirt, and from Size 11.5 to 12 in shoes, plus another 8kg in body mass. I think it’s fair to say I’m a jolly green giant now. Since my autistic beginnings, university hardships, relationship sufferings, I have survived. Despite everything, I have found love, procreated, loved, and lost. My wife (Wendy) died in 2014 and I have not recovered. I talk to her daily and it is so very hard, that nothing else matters, and every day is either hard or sad, or both. In IQ terms, I have learnt to see people for what they are, to understand what motivates them, and discern what is important and what is not, so that I manage my time and energy wisely – for, after all – that’s ‘all’ we have.

19. What common attributes demarcate geniuses?

LOL. Alienation, usually.

20. Do you find that geniuses typically have characteristics in common, and if so, what are those characteristics?

Intelligence, usually, and sometimes, wit. Trite, but true.

21. What seems wrong with portrayals of geniuses in books, television, movies, and journalism?

Geniuses *are* superheros, no doubt about that; it just seems that those in the media are those that solve really big ‘social’ problems, whereas the common genius (no contradiction) solves non-social, scientific and very-specific problems, such that their light doesn’t shine in the global daynight; however, just as the Earth turns day into night, their glory and glow is noted by those that it affects and is written into those annuls, recorded for the future, to be recognised later for their contribution to humanity’s greatness.

22. How did Internet alter the high-IQ landscape?

It gave people a place to be, as it did many other special interest groups. The internet is wonderful, yet horrible, for those same reasons. Oh, for yesterdecade – bring back the 70s!

23. Insofar as numerous professionals argue about general intelligence, it appears, for the most part, genetic with increasing hereditary influence with more complete development of the organism, e.g. an individual human being’s growth from infant to toddler to adult. However, some argue for the possibility to increase IQ, intelligence, or both. Can people increase their IQ, intelligence, or both to you?

Ha! Seeking to test my Boolean intelligence, I see! So, the answer to the last sentence is yes, to the first part yes, the second part no, and of course, the whole, as yes.

I think IQ can rise by 10% over 10 years if the right factors can come into play; namely, that the IQ is measured correctly in the first year, then many years of brain-training takes place over the concurrent years, and that proper testing takes place at the end, also. I have witnessed many people take my tests from a decade ago and now are ten points higher, slowing fighting the years in a reverse relationship of IQ to year. IQ, strictly speaking, was the relationship of a person’s mental to physical age; nowadays it is the relationship of that person in the statistical population – a much more accurate and meaningful figure.

24. If this can occur to you, how might this occur to you?

Like King Solomon, I hope to awake in an enlightened state, and become filthy rich, revered by men and adored by women. Unlike the same, I will probably work very hard for a very long time and slowly glean away at the reflection of intellectual riches and only hope that – at the end of it all – some kind of final illucidation will arrive and satisfy me.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Abbot, The Order of the Mystic Rose; Member, HOTA High IQ Societies; Member, Helliq Society; Member, Prometheus Society; Member, Australian Mensa; Member, The Triple Nine Society; Member, Australian Psychics Association; Member, Masonic Grand Lodge of Tasmania; Member, Infinity International Society; Member, Triple Nine Society; Member, ISI-Society; Australia’s #1 Distributor (2007), ForeverGreen’s FrequenSea Health Tonic; Owner (2004), Emerald Alchemy, Mail-Order Vitamins, Minerals, Antioxidants; Owner (2000), Taslife Intl, Mail-Order Vitamins, Minerals, Antioxidants; Self Employed (1998), Acupuncture, Massage, Reiki, Nutritional Therapist; High School Teacher (Science/Maths, 1996), Dept. of Education, Tasmania; Editor/Publisher (1995), Tasmania’s Alternative & Natural Therapy Directory; Founder/Organiser (1995), Tasmanian Psychic Expos; Started Teaching Magical Tarot (1993), Numerology and the Hebrew Qabala; Started Reading Playing Cards (1990); Professional Magical Tarot (1992); Member of the Order of Merit (2015), Supreme Council of the Thirty-third Degree; Knight Kadosh Thirtieth Degree (2012), Holy Grail Soverign Chapter, Tasmania; Most Wise Soverign (2012), Holy Sepulchre Soverign Chapter, Tasmania; Knight of St John the Evangelist (2004), Patriarchal Council of Scotland; Knight of Rome and the Red Cross of Constantine (2004), Grand Imperial Council of Scotland; Knight of HRM and the Rosy Cross (2003), Grand Lodge of the Royal Order of Scotland.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 8, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2016 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Diploma of Homoeopathy (Dip. Hom, 2001), Medicina Alternativa University (Sri Lanka); Doctor of Philosophy (PhD, 1999), Medicina Alternativa University (Sri Lanka); Registered Marriage Celebrant (1999), Order of the Mystic Rose, Inc. (A4699); Founder/Abbot (1998), Order of the Mystic Rose, Inc. (Tas. #3885); Diploma of Metaphysical Counselling (Dip.MC, 1998), Order of the Mystic Rose (Tasmania); Diploma of Acupuncture (Dip.Ac, 1998), Medicina Alternativa University (Sri Lanka); Certificate of Membership (1998), Acupuncture Foundation of Sri Lanka; Doctor of Science (Honoris Causa, 1997)(DSc), Medicina Alternativa University; Reiki Sensei (Master/Teacher) Certificate (1997), Lee-Anne Bennett (SA); Post Grad. Diploma of Metaphysical Science (Dip.MSc, 1997), Lindlahr College (WA); Bachelor of Science (BSc, 1996), University of Tasmania (Mathematics/Philosophy); Diploma of Remedial Massage (Dip.RM, 1995), Chi-Med College (Tasmania); Certificates in Iridology, Shiatsu and Swedish Massage (1995), Chi-Med College (Tasmania); Advanced Certificate (1992), Usui Method of Reiki Healing; Basic Certificate (1991), Usui Method of Reiki Healing; Certificate (1991), Quantum Dynamics Rebirthing Technique; 30th Degree Freemason; Buddhu Reiki Shihan; Winner (2010), Tasmanian Psychic of the Year, Australian Psychics Association; Winner (2008), Australian Psychic of the Year, Australian Psychic Association; Founder, Tasmanian Psychic Expos; First Principal, Royal Arch Chapter (2003), Supreme Grand Royal Arch Chapter of Scotland; Right Worshipful Master, Mark Lodge (2003), Supreme Grand Royal Arch Chapter of Scotland; Master (2002), Tasmanian Union Craft Lodge, Grand Lodge of Tasmanial; Rites of Druidism (2002), Anglesea Lodge, United Ancient Order of Druids, Victoria; Cross Degrees (2002), Supreme Grand Royal Arch Chapter of Scotland; Knight of the Pelican and Eagle (2001), Supreme Council of the 33rd Degree of Scotland; Royal Master Degree (2001), Supreme Grand Royal Arch Chapter of Scotland; Royal Ark Mariners Degree (2000), Supreme Grand Royal Arch Chapter of Scotland; Royal Arch Degree (1998), Supreme Grand Royal Arch Chapter of Scotland; Grand Lodge Certificate (1996), Grand Lodge of Ancient Free & Accepted Masons of Tasmania; Discoverer (2012), hexagonally symmetrical circles sequence (OEIS A218146); Discoverer, base-prime integer sequences (OEIS A21551, A126359); Founder, Tasmanian Natural Therapy Directory; Editor, World Genius Directory; Editor, IQ Societies List; IQ Test Constructor, Lux25, WIT, Mathema, and Asterix; Creator, Betts Square Arithmetic Tool and Number Representation, The Betts Virtuegrams; 30th Anniversary Psychic Ambassador Award (2013), Australian Psychics Association; Australia’s Top Psychic, ABC TV’s Unbelievable, Episode One; TV Star Psychic (2008), Channel 7’s ‘The One’, Fox Studios Sydney; Founder, EarthHeart.com.au; Member, Mensa International.

[4] Images/photographs/portraits/sketches courtesy of Dr. Jason Betts.

[5] United States Census Bureau. (2015). U.S. and World Population Clock. Retrieved from http://www.census.gov/popclock/.

[6] Ibid.

[7] United States. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/place/United-States.

[8] human intelligence. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/human-intelligence-psychology.

[9] PSIQ. (2015). PSIQ. Retrieved from http://psiq.org/lux/.

[10] Ibid.

[11] human intelligence. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/human-intelligence-psychology.

[12] Ibid.

[13] PSIQ. (2015). Bio. Retrieved from http://www.psiq.org/bio/.

[14] PSIQ. (2015). PSIQ. Retrieved from http://psiq.org/lux/.

[15] PSIQ. (2015). World Genius Directory. Retrieved from http://psiq.org/home.html.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part Two) [Online].June 2016; 11(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-jason-betts-b-sc-dip-m-sc-ph-d-d-sc-emerald-alchemist-part-two.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, June 8). An Interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part Two). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-jason-betts-b-sc-dip-m-sc-ph-d-d-sc-emerald-alchemist-part-two.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A, June. 2016. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-jason-betts-b-sc-dip-m-sc-ph-d-d-sc-emerald-alchemist-part-two>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An Interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-jason-betts-b-sc-dip-m-sc-ph-d-d-sc-emerald-alchemist-part-two.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A (June 2016). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-jason-betts-b-sc-dip-m-sc-ph-d-d-sc-emerald-alchemist-part-two.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part Two)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-jason-betts-b-sc-dip-m-sc-ph-d-d-sc-emerald-alchemist-part-two>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-jason-betts-b-sc-dip-m-sc-ph-d-d-sc-emerald-alchemist-part-two.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11.A (2016):June. 2016. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-jason-betts-b-sc-dip-m-sc-ph-d-d-sc-emerald-alchemist-part-two>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part One) [Internet]. (2016, June); 11(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-jason-betts-b-sc-dip-m-sc-ph-d-d-sc-emerald-alchemist-part-two.

License and Copyright

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Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

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© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2016. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2016-06-01

An interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part One)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 11.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Seven)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: June 1, 2016

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2016

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,393

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

An interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc. He discusses: geographic, cultural, and linguistic family background; growing up; first awareness of abilities; responsibilities based on electronic exposure; written books; the content of the books; creation, development, refinement, administration, statistical norming, and publication of legitimate tests; and the test with the most accurate analysis of general intelligence.

Keywords: abilities, books, Jason Betts, tests.

An Interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part One)[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. In terms of geography, culture, and language, where does your family background reside?

I was born in Hobart, Tasmania, Australia to my German mother and Welsh father, both Christians and educated people of strong family, ethical and social values. They arrived in the 1950’s post WWII Europe and were told to learn English and become Australian, a mostly-UK conformist annex of the world. I currently believe that Australia is a very good place to be in the world, with minimal corruption, rich natural resources, high educational and living standards, firm protection (due to natural geography and governmental support) and a high level of civil liberties and democracy. Australians are lucky.

Australia is a country with a rich diversity in people, geography, nature, opportunities and much more. It truly is the lucky country; no man can fail unless he really tries to. I was raised in an environment where things that occur in other counties are foreign and unknown here, evil … unheard of. It is hard to consider the differences of a normal life (here) and a hard life (there) while watching the international news.

2. What was growing up like for you?

It was difficult. I was different. I was strange – lived in my own world, talked to myself, and understood everything as a commentary between myself and I – in secret, of course, because no-one else would understand what I meant; and even, if (!) I were to explain, they wouldn’t have understood, for while I could not understand mental spacial relationships, my internal thinking was about half pictures and half visual symbolic representations, like some coloured-energy-cloud that breathed and evolved, like pictures coming together and merging, each with its own meanings and intentions understood – so I couldn’t explain these to others, especially as I didn’t like most other people.

I played music at seven years (guitar), then moved into brass instruments from nine until seventeen (trumpet through tuba) and have played the bass guitar since then; I tinker with different musics like pan flutes/wine bottles, vocal toning/chanting, keyboard and am a mad lap-tabletop-drummer if inspired enough.

Always excelling in the classroom, I usually failed exams because I argued the semantics of the questions and the test. I always failed school out of the classroom too, finding solace in the school library. In each school, I worked my way, day-by-day, page-by-page, volume-by-volume, set-by-set, through the encyclopaediae, and then moved onto their psychology, philosophy and science sections. Dewey was my friend.

3. When did you first become aware of or first try to develop your abilities?

I died at the age of seventeen and experienced an out-of-body-experience, viewing my whole body on an operating table and many hospital staff around me, after a road accident. My heart and breathing stopped and I was revived, but I was consciously observing in real-time what was happening to my body, seeing my face and self dying there, a purplish-indigo glow around everything. Until that point, I was a scientist and didn’t go for any religious nonsense; but afterwards, I explored yoga, OOBEs, psychic phenomena and the like.

Soon after, while learning to walk again around the hospital, I could look at a person and tell if they were going to survive or not. They psychically ‘reeked’ of death – a feeling – and also what they felt. As a latter-diagnosed Asperger’s Autistic, this was very new to me – I could ‘feel’ in a new way, new doors of my mind had opened, and – like it or not – it was coming to me, ready or not.

My first profound psychic experience was with my school friend Ryan, whom I am still in-touch with. Mum and Dad were driving me to Ryan’s 18th birthday party along the West Tamar Highway of Launceston, Tasmania. I screamed as I saw a white 4-door car overturn on the other side of the highway. Then, it disappeared. My parents didn’t see it. They said it was the painkillers. Mental, I was. No matter. We went to the party, a sleepover/gaming session. It was a good night, and I told everyone about my vision, and they all agreed with my parents, and we continued to play Archon (a RPG-style video-chess game). Ryan’s older brother even turned up for a few hours and played and then left late that night. We went home late next morning. That afternoon I got a phone call from Ryan saying his brother, who left late the night before, driving his white 4-door car, crashed and overturned on the highway driving back to Launceston, just where I had seen it. That was a very spooky moment. My life was never the same.

4. You have numerous online resources with reference to, or published by, you.[5],[6],[7],[8],[9],[10],[11],[12],[13],[14],[15],[16],[17],[18],[19],[20],[21],[22],[23],[24],[25],[26],[27],[28],[29],[30],[31],[32],[33],[34],[35],[36] [37],[38],[39],[40],[41],[42],[43],[44],[45],[46],[47],[48],[49],[50],[51],[52],[53],[54],[55],[56],[57],[58],[59],[60],[61],[62],[63],[64],[65],[66],[67],[68],[69],[70],[71],[72],[73],[74],[75] What responsibilities come with this public, professional exposure into the electronic world?

Ah, the internet. The greatest observable library of the World. Ah, the internet. Well, with great responsibility comes great power (lol, but true), and the key virtue to all leadership – for that is the pathway of power – is trust. Trust is earned, demonstrated and kept by keeping integrity. Anyone can be anyone, but their standing, reputation and value to society is ‘held’ by integrity, whatever that may be, whatever their values may be, and whatever their actions may hold them accountable for. I believe that for me to do the work I do, which I’ve not consciously chosen to do – it’s just what has happened – that we must adhere to our True Selves, and be the best we can be, and not for our own reputation, but for the sake of others, and indeed, the World.

5. You wrote a number books, e.g. Zen Master: the Art of Perfection (2008), Maths Experiments for Year 9 (2005), Sapientia Diploma of Metaphysics – Knowledge Master Program (2000), MLM Secrets: Networking in the Y2K (1999), and A Guide to the New Age (1996).[76] How did these become topics of interest to you?[77]

Zen seems to appeal to my perfectionist nature and philosophy, MLM Secret was a practical thing, as was Maths Experiments, and Sapientia is my basic instructional manual in the ‘ways of the world’ self-empowerment and how to learn as much as possible and how to think intelligently and spiritually in as short amount of time as possible.

6. What does each book cover?[78]

A Guide to a New Age was a spin-off from my ‘Tasmanian Directory of Alternative & Natural Therapies’ where I was the editor and publisher. We did 1000 copies for statewide distributor every two years and this started as a brief explanation of the modalities; but because I was drunk, it was midnight and there was a full moon playing with the harquelin of my mind, I decided to write sillilly, and asked a uni mate of mine (Jon Kudelka, now a famous award-winning national political cartoonist) to match them with images. He did. It was. It sold, went national, became a bit famous – it was a hoot.

MLM Secrets was the publication of a set of notes I’d written after a decade in the industry, Maths Experiments was a collection of mathematical experiments I’d used as a high school math teacher and Sapientia was a 1-year personal growth program of applied philosophy that drew from the Hebrew Qabala and medieval mysticism (the topic of my PhD research and thesis). Students come for 3-hours every Wednesday night for 44 weeks and get a Diploma of Sapiential Metaphysics. (Zen is still a work-in-progress.

7. You constructed intelligence tests, high-range intelligence tests, namely: Lux25, WIT, Mathema, Asterix, and others..[79],[80] How does one create, develop, refine, administer, statistically norm, and publish a legitimate test?.[81],[82]

This question is a book unto itself, and so, I cannot answer it. I may describe the answer in a sentence, perhaps: it takes time, experience, cleverness, cunning and a devious attitude to mettling-out the truth. Publishing is easy. Administering is easy if a home-test providing everything in honest (checking IDs etc) and norming can be complicated. Creating ‘tests that work’ as IQ tests is an art and skill. There are many methods that converge to the Ultimate Truth of the Matter. I have found one that works for me.

8. What test provides the most accurate analysis of general intelligence out of the total set of personal tests?.[83],[84]

Asterix (http://www.psiq.org/*.pdf) is my most accurate test. For those that take my four best tests and find their TrueIQ (a term I coined) then Asterix is the closest to their TrueIQ.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Abbot, The Order of the Mystic Rose; Member, HOTA High IQ Societies; Member, Helliq Society; Member, Prometheus Society; Member, Australian Mensa; Member, The Triple Nine Society; Member, Australian Psychics Association; Member, Masonic Grand Lodge of Tasmania; Member, Infinity International Society; Member, Triple Nine Society; Member, ISI-Society; Australia’s #1 Distributor (2007), ForeverGreen’s FrequenSea Health Tonic; Owner (2004), Emerald Alchemy, Mail-Order Vitamins, Minerals, Antioxidants; Owner (2000), Taslife Intl, Mail-Order Vitamins, Minerals, Antioxidants; Self Employed (1998), Acupuncture, Massage, Reiki, Nutritional Therapist; High School Teacher (Science/Maths, 1996), Dept. of Education, Tasmania; Editor/Publisher (1995), Tasmania’s Alternative & Natural Therapy Directory; Founder/Organiser (1995), Tasmanian Psychic Expos; Started Teaching Magical Tarot (1993), Numerology and the Hebrew Qabala; Started Reading Playing Cards (1990); Professional Magical Tarot (1992); Member of the Order of Merit (2015), Supreme Council of the Thirty-third Degree; Knight Kadosh Thirtieth Degree (2012), Holy Grail Soverign Chapter, Tasmania; Most Wise Soverign (2012), Holy Sepulchre Soverign Chapter, Tasmania; Knight of St John the Evangelist (2004), Patriarchal Council of Scotland; Knight of Rome and the Red Cross of Constantine (2004), Grand Imperial Council of Scotland; Knight of HRM and the Rosy Cross (2003), Grand Lodge of the Royal Order of Scotland.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 1, 2016 at http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-jason-betts-bsc-dipmsc-phd-dsc-part-one; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2016 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Diploma of Homoeopathy (Dip. Hom, 2001), Medicina Alternativa University (Sri Lanka); Doctor of Philosophy (PhD, 1999), Medicina Alternativa University (Sri Lanka); Registered Marriage Celebrant (1999), Order of the Mystic Rose, Inc. (A4699); Founder/Abbot (1998), Order of the Mystic Rose, Inc. (Tas. #3885); Diploma of Metaphysical Counselling (Dip.MC, 1998), Order of the Mystic Rose (Tasmania); Diploma of Acupuncture (Dip.Ac, 1998), Medicina Alternativa University (Sri Lanka); Certificate of Membership (1998), Acupuncture Foundation of Sri Lanka; Doctor of Science (Honoris Causa, 1997)(DSc), Medicina Alternativa University; Reiki Sensei (Master/Teacher) Certificate (1997), Lee-Anne Bennett (SA); Post Grad. Diploma of Metaphysical Science (Dip.MSc, 1997), Lindlahr College (WA); Bachelor of Science (BSc, 1996), University of Tasmania (Mathematics/Philosophy); Diploma of Remedial Massage (Dip.RM, 1995), Chi-Med College (Tasmania); Certificates in Iridology, Shiatsu and Swedish Massage (1995), Chi-Med College (Tasmania); Advanced Certificate (1992), Usui Method of Reiki Healing; Basic Certificate (1991), Usui Method of Reiki Healing; Certificate (1991), Quantum Dynamics Rebirthing Technique; 30th Degree Freemason; Buddhu Reiki Shihan; Winner (2010), Tasmanian Psychic of the Year, Australian Psychics Association; Winner (2008), Australian Psychic of the Year, Australian Psychic Association; Founder, Tasmanian Psychic Expos; First Principal, Royal Arch Chapter (2003), Supreme Grand Royal Arch Chapter of Scotland; Right Worshipful Master, Mark Lodge (2003), Supreme Grand Royal Arch Chapter of Scotland; Master (2002), Tasmanian Union Craft Lodge, Grand Lodge of Tasmanial; Rites of Druidism (2002), Anglesea Lodge, United Ancient Order of Druids, Victoria; Cross Degrees (2002), Supreme Grand Royal Arch Chapter of Scotland; Knight of the Pelican and Eagle (2001), Supreme Council of the 33rd Degree of Scotland; Royal Master Degree (2001), Supreme Grand Royal Arch Chapter of Scotland; Royal Ark Mariners Degree (2000), Supreme Grand Royal Arch Chapter of Scotland; Royal Arch Degree (1998), Supreme Grand Royal Arch Chapter of Scotland; Grand Lodge Certificate (1996), Grand Lodge of Ancient Free & Accepted Masons of Tasmania; Discoverer (2012), hexagonally symmetrical circles sequence (OEIS A218146); Discoverer, base-prime integer sequences (OEIS A21551, A126359); Founder, Tasmanian Natural Therapy Directory; Editor, World Genius Directory; Editor, IQ Societies List; IQ Test Constructor, Lux25, WIT, Mathema, and Asterix; Creator, Betts Square Arithmetic Tool and Number Representation, The Betts Virtuegrams; 30th Anniversary Psychic Ambassador Award (2013), Australian Psychics Association; Australia’s Top Psychic, ABC TV’s Unbelievable, Episode One; TV Star Psychic (2008), Channel 7’s ‘The One’, Fox Studios Sydney; Founder, EarthHeart.com.au; Member, Mensa International.

[4] Photographs courtesy of Dr. Jason Betts.

[5] Betts, J. (2015). Dr Jason Betts | Mystiq Genius – High-Range IQ Tests. Retrieved from http://psiq.org/lux/.

[6] Betts, J. (2015). Dr Jason Betts | IQ Test Norms – Scoring and Norming Data. Retrieved from http://www.psiq.org/norms/.

[7] Betts, J. (2015). Emerald Alchemy. Retrieved from http://www.emeraldalchemy.com/.

[8] World Intelligence Network. (2015). Dr Jason Betts, BSc, DipMSc, PhD, DSc.. Retrieved from http://www.iqsociety.org/win-people/jason-betts/.

[9] Spector, D. (2013, January 6). 16 ways to find out if you’re a genius. Retrieved from http://www.thejournal.ie/16-ways-to-measure-iq-735242-Jan2013/.

[10] Sarfaraz. (2012, October 26). Tag Archives: Jason Betts. Retrieved from https://sarfarazit.wordpress.com/tag/jason-betts/.

[11] ESOTERIQ High IQ Society. (2015). Admission. Retrieved from http://esoteriqsociety.com/admission/.

[12] Gifted High IQ Network. (2015). Gifted High IQ Network. Retrieved from http://www.giftedhighiqnetwork.org/iq-tests.

[13] Spector, D. (2013, January 6). 16 ways to find out if you’re a genius. Retrieved from http://www.thejournal.ie/16-ways-to-measure-iq-735242-Jan2013/.

[14] Global Genius Generation Group (4G). (2015). Global Genius Generation Group. Retrieved from http://www.4g-highiqsociety.org/qualification.

[15] MACH. (2015). Links. Retrieved from http://mach.highrangeiqtests.com/links.html.

[16] Spector, D. (2012, November 20). Geniuses Are The Loneliest People On Earth. Retrieved from http://www.businessinsider.com.au/what-it-feels-like-to-be-a-genius-2012-11.

[17] Mathesia. (2015). THE WORLD’S SECOND-SMARTEST MAN TELLS US WHAT MAKES HIM FEEL STUPID. Retrieved from http://www.mathesia.com/community/the-worlds-second-smartest-man-tells-us-what-makes-him-feel-stupid/.

[18] Odysseus4Gifted. (n.d.). VerbIQ. Retrieved from http://www.odysseus4gifted.de/411828427.

[19] Sauve, J. (2014, December 15). What is the most reliable source to measure IQ on the Internet?. Retrieved from https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-most-reliable-source-to-measure-IQ-on-the-Internet.

[20] Betts, J. (2015). Jason Betts Creations. Retrieved from http://www.emeraldalchemy.com/creations/.

[21] Oleinic, A. (2014, September). The Smartest People in the World. Retrieved from http://www.insidermonkey.com/blog/11-smartest-people-in-the-world-219221/.

[22] S.I.Q.S. – The Secret High I.Q. Society. (2015). Members. Retrieved from http://www.siqs.org/members/.

[23] World Intelligence Network. (2015). Dr Jason Betts, BSc, DipMSc, PhD, DSc.. Retrieved from http://www.iqsociety.org/win-people/jason-betts/.

[24] Elite High IQ Society. (2015). Exclusive Leading Institute for Thinkers’ Evolution. Retrieved from http://www.elitehighiqsociety.org/qualification.

[25] Betts, J. (2013, January 22). They’re Smarter than You – They’re Smarter than Everyone. Retrieved from http://www.pressking.com/press-room/world-genius-directory/They-re-Smarter-than-You-They-re-Smarter-than-Everyone–041246.

[26] Betts, J. (2013, January 29). Extreme Genius in All Its Weird Glory. Retrieved from http://www.pressking.com/press-room/world-genius-directory/Extreme-Genius-in-All-Its-Weird-Glory-042596.

[27] Richards, S. (2014, November 22). When the second most intelligent man in the world feels dumb.

[28] Wang, N. (2015). Nate Wang High Range IQ Tests. Retrieved from http://weijiewang.gandi.ws/link.

[29] Omnilexia. (2015). People: Jason Betts. Retrieved from http://www.omnilexica.com/?q=jason+betts#.VfjGtBFViko.

[30] Pastor Keith. (2015, January 25). Jesus Chooses His Disciples – and They’re Not Geniuses! Mark 1:14-20. Retrieved from http://www.agtucson.com/sermon%20text/Jesus%20Chooses%20His%20Disciples.pdf.

[31] Pastor Keith. (2015, January 25). Jesus Chooses His Disciples – and They’re Not Geniuses! Mark 1:14-20.

[32] Tetrastic. (2015). Tetrastic. Retrieved from http://www.tetrastiq.com/news.html.

[33] Ghost Radio. (2008, November 2). The People – Jason Betts. Retrieved from http://www.americandownunder.com/phantom/grn/people_jason_betts.asp.

[34] Earth Heart. (2015). Earth Heart. Retrieved from http://earthheart.com.au/.

[35] McNicoll, D.D. (2008, January 8). Prescient Presentation. Retrieved from http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/prescient-presentation/story-e6frg6n6-1111115266483.

[36] The On-line Encyclopedia of Integer Sequences. (2012, August 14). A126359. Retrieved from http://oeis.org/A126359.

[37] [Dr Jason Betts, Psychic and MystIQ]. (2009, April 17). Buy Order FrequenSea Marine Phytoplankton Deutschland Germany. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcoBANvXssc.

[38] [Dr Jason Betts, Psychic and MystIQ]. (2011, February 8). Dr Jason Betts – The One – Ep1 Pt1 – Boylost. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyx29HyS_0o.

[39] [Dr Jason Betts, Psychic and MystIQ]. (2011, February 9). Dr Jason Betts – The One – Ep1 Pt2 – Reiki. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_YTmAkQn1o.

[40] [Dr Jason Betts, Psychic and MystIQ]. (2011, February 9). Dr Jason Betts – The One – Ep2 Pt1 – Jewellery. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rO65qfs7JlU.

[41] [Dr Jason Betts, Psychic and MystIQ]. (2011, February 9). Dr Jason Betts – The One – Ep2 Pt2 – Container. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwDmcb8CA2E.

[42] [Dr Jason Betts, Psychic and MystIQ]. (2011, February 9). Dr Jason Betts – The One – Ep2 Pt3 – Olympian. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gn7vS4wGNnU.

[43] [Dr Jason Betts, Psychic and MystIQ]. (2011, February 10). Dr Jason Betts – The One – Ep3 Pt1 – Auracolours. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYnKIfZEvPM.

[44] [Dr Jason Betts, Psychic and MystIQ]. (2011, February 10). Dr Jason Betts – The One – Ep3 Pt2 – Gravefinder. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfgg4v3WKZc.

[45] [Dr Jason Betts, Psychic and MystIQ]. (2011, February 10). Dr Jason Betts – The One – Ep3 Pt3 – Rockstar. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVOCwucuAkY.

[46] [Dr Jason Betts, Psychic and MystIQ]. (2011, February 13). Dr Jason Betts – The One – Ep4 Pt1 – Street. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7sXwuFFtxM.

[47] [Dr Jason Betts, Psychic and MystIQ]. (2011, February 10). Dr Jason Betts – The One – Ep4 Pt2 – Medical. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW43ZViUj2o.

[48] [Dr Jason Betts, Psychic and MystIQ]. (2011, February 10). Dr Jason Betts – The One – Ep4 Pt3 – Luggage. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olfi4vVFgc0.

[49] [Dr Jason Betts, Psychic and MystIQ]. (2011, February 10). Dr Jason Betts – The One – Ep4 Pt4 – Screen. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fpmeS3OZyA.

[50] [Dr Jason Betts, Psychic and MystIQ]. (2011, July 15). Dr Jason Betts ABC’s Unbelievable! June 2011. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTqXWqgp8II.

[51] [Dr Jason Betts, Psychic and MystIQ]. (2009, August 23). Dr Jason Betts Adelaide Psychic Expo May 09. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foh5gtNH98Q.

[52] [Dr Jason Betts, Psychic and MystIQ]. (2009, April 17). Dr Jason Betts Australia’s Top Psychic – 2008 Psychic of the Year. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1j9_kRqovJ4.

[53] [Dr Jason Betts, Psychic and MystIQ]. (2009, April 22). Dr Jason Betts ESO.TV Tarot Reading Oct 08. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyG4O_9dJYQ.

[54] [Dr Jason Betts, Psychic and MystIQ]. (2009, September 9). Dr Jason Betts Hobart Psychic Expo Jul 09. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ub_kIN3BWAg.

[55] [Dr Jason Betts, Psychic and MystIQ]. (2009, April 18). Dr Jason Betts Launceston Psychic Expo Jan 09. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hhKOiqeGF4.

[56] [Dr Jason Betts, Psychic and MystIQ]. (2011, March 13). Dr Jason Betts LAFM Live Psychic Radio Reading Feb 2011. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgsibepZIew.

[57] Betts, J. (n.d.). 10 Steps to Beauty Inside and Out. Retrieved from http://www.emeraldalchemy.com/creations/philosophy/beauty/.

[58] Betts, J. (n.d.). 10 Steps to Becoming a Romantic Love Magnet. Retrieved from http://www.emeraldalchemy.com/creations/philosophy/romantic_love_magnet/.

[59] Betts, J. (n.d.). 10 Steps to Becoming Smarter. Retrieved from http://www.emeraldalchemy.com/creations/philosophy/becoming_smarter/.

[60] Betts, J. (n.d.). 10 Steps to Confidence and Personal Power. Retrieved from http://www.emeraldalchemy.com/creations/philosophy/confidence_personal_power/.

[61] Betts, J. (n.d.). 10 Steps to Effective Communication. Retrieved from http://www.emeraldalchemy.com/creations/philosophy/effective_communication/.

[62] Betts, J. (n.d.). 10 Steps to Enlightenment. Retrieved from http://www.emeraldalchemy.com/creations/philosophy/enlightenment/.

[63] Betts, J. (n.d.). 10 Steps to Financial Wealth. Retrieved from http://www.emeraldalchemy.com/creations/philosophy/financial_wealth/.

[64] Betts, J. (n.d.). 10 Steps to Fixing the World. Retrieved from http://www.emeraldalchemy.com/creations/philosophy/fixing_world/.

[65] Betts, J. (n.d.). 10 Steps to Life Improvement. Retrieved from http://www.emeraldalchemy.com/creations/philosophy/life_improvement/.

[66] Betts, J. (n.d.). 10 Steps to Losing Weight. Retrieved from http://www.emeraldalchemy.com/creations/philosophy/losing_weight/.

[67] Betts, J. (n.d.). 10 Steps to Quitting Smoking. Retrieved from http://www.emeraldalchemy.com/creations/philosophy/quitting_smoking/.

[68] Betts, J. (n.d.). 10 Steps to Perfect Eyesight. Retrieved from http://www.emeraldalchemy.com/creations/philosophy/perfect_eyesight/.

[69] Betts, J. (n.d.). 10 Steps to Perfect Health. Retrieved from http://www.emeraldalchemy.com/creations/philosophy/perfect_health/.

[70] Betts, J. (n.d.). 10 Steps to Psychic Powers. Retrieved from http://www.emeraldalchemy.com/creations/philosophy/psychic_powers/.

[71] Betts, J. (n.d.). 10 Steps to Raising Children. Retrieved from http://www.emeraldalchemy.com/creations/philosophy/raising_children/.

[72] Betts, J. (n.d.). 10 Steps to Staying Alive. Retrieved from http://www.emeraldalchemy.com/creations/philosophy/staying_alive/.

[73] Betts, J. (n.d.). 10 Steps to Successful Dating. Retrieved from http://www.emeraldalchemy.com/creations/philosophy/successful_dating/.

[74] Betts, J. (n.d.). 10 Steps to Zen Chainsaw Safety. Retrieved from http://www.emeraldalchemy.com/creations/philosophy/zen_chainsaw_safety/.

[75] Betts, J. (n.d.). 1,000 Year Old Super Health Foods. Retrieved from http://www.emeraldalchemy.com/creations/philosophy/super_health_foods/.

[76] PSIQ. (2015). Bio. Retrieved from http://www.psiq.org/bio/.

[77] Ibid.

[78] This references the texts entitled Zen Master: the Art of Perfection (2008), Maths Experiments for Year 9 (2005), Sapientia Diploma of Metaphysics – Knowledge Master Program (2000), MLM Secrets: Networking in the Y2K (1999), and A Guide to the New Age (1996).

[79] PSIQ. (2015). PSIQ. Retrieved from http://psiq.org/lux/.

[80] PSIQ. (2015). Bio. Retrieved from http://www.psiq.org/bio/.

[81] PSIQ. (2015). PSIQ. Retrieved from http://psiq.org/lux/.

[82] PSIQ. (2015). Bio. Retrieved from http://www.psiq.org/bio/.

[83] PSIQ. (2015). PSIQ. Retrieved from http://psiq.org/lux/.

[84] PSIQ. (2015). Bio. Retrieved from http://www.psiq.org/bio/.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part One) [Online].June 2016; 11(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-jason-betts-bsc-dipmsc-phd-dsc-part-one.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, June 1). An Interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part One). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-jason-betts-bsc-dipmsc-phd-dsc-part-one.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A, June. 2016. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-jason-betts-bsc-dipmsc-phd-dsc-part-one>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An Interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-jason-betts-bsc-dipmsc-phd-dsc-part-one.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A (June 2016). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-jason-betts-bsc-dipmsc-phd-dsc-part-one.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part One)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-jason-betts-bsc-dipmsc-phd-dsc-part-one>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-jason-betts-bsc-dipmsc-phd-dsc-part-one.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11.A (2016):June. 2016. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-jason-betts-bsc-dipmsc-phd-dsc-part-one>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Dr. Jason Betts, B.Sc., Dip.M.Sc., Ph.D., D.Sc.: Emerald Alchemist (Part One) [Internet]. (2016, June); 11(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-jason-betts-bsc-dipmsc-phd-dsc-part-one.

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© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2016. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2016-05-22

An Interview with Professor Randall Engle: Adjunct Professor, Psychiatry, Emory Medical School; Professional Fellow, Psychology, University of Edinburgh; Principle Investigator, Attention and Working Memory Lab, Georgia Institute of Technology; Director, GSU/GT Center for Advanced Brain Imaging

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Numbering: Issue 11.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Six)

Individual Publication Date: May 22, 2016 (2016-05-22)

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2016 (2016-09-01)

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Web Domain: www.in-sightjournal.com

Words: 4,070

ISSN 2369-6885

Professor Randall Engle.jpg

Abstract

An interview with Professor Randall Engle.  He discusses: early influence from university training, influences on educational and professional trajectory, and recommendations about exposure; patience and focus in mentorship from D.D. Wickens; most valuable experience; core domains of interest, interests in professional life, and greatest single problems at the moment; Working memory, short-term memory, and general fluid intelligence: a latent-variable approach (1999); cognitive neuroscience in research and fluid intelligence; brain training efficacy; awards and responsibilities; near and far future research; and advice for young psychological scientists.

Keywords: cognitive neuroscience, fluid intelligence, Randall Engle, psychology.

An Interview with Professor Randall Engle: Adjunct Professor, Psychiatry, Emory Medical School; Professional Fellow, Psychology, University of Edinburgh; Principle Investigator, Attention and Working Memory Lab, Georgia Institute of Technology; Director, GSU/GT Center for Advanced Brain Imaging[1],[2],[3]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. You earned a BA at West Virginia State College (WVSC). Your lab and other biographies, and news venues, describe some experiences, expertise, selective background, and short reports on research, even a slice of a lecture.[4],[5],[6],[7],[8],[9],[10],[11]  One of salience, about WVSC, states:

State was a public all-black college prior to 1954. As a consequence, most of his faculty were outstanding scholars who could not get jobs at top universities. One of his psychology professors was a marvelously well-read scholar named Herman G. Canady, a 1929 Ph.D. from Northwestern and one of the first black ABEP’s. He worked his way through graduate school as a butler. Engle had a Harvard graduate for his math courses, a Yale Ph.D. as a drama teacher, and his French teacher was a black female who received her Ph.D. from the Sorbonne.[12] (Engle, 2014)

How did these early experiences in university training influence you?  How did these diversely-trained educators influence your educational and professional trajectory? Would you recommend this kind of exposure to others – or even improve upon it?

These experiences had a profound effect on my social and political philosophy and made me much more aware of the effects of racial, ethnic, and gender stereotypes. I would very much recommend these experiences to others and tried to re-create them for my own children.

2. Your biography indicates undergraduate training with inclusion of extensive hours in zoology and math in addition to psychology.[13],[14],[15],[16],[17] What funnelled interest into these disciplines?  How did these influence future psychological research overall?

Science always appealed to me and these experiences and interests have continued to the present day in my research.

3. You continued onward with education. You had admittance into Ohio State University for collaboration with D.D. Wickens.[18]  You note the variables to the man’s mentoring.  I want to take him as a case study in relation to you.  About his relation to yourself, you state:

He was admitted to Ohio State to work with D.D. Wickens. Wick was a wonderful mentor and was exceedingly patient with a student that wanted to do everything but did not focus on anything long enough to do it well.[19]

Besides patience and lack of focus, what variables existed with regards to his mentoring?  How did this impact you?

Wickens was a marvelous writer – in fact his master’s level work was in literature before he became interested in psychology.  He could write about complex scientific topics in clear and accessible prose and I tried to model that style of writing and I try to teach my own graduate students to write that way.

4. What were the most valuable experiences from these educational opportunities and times of varied intellectual experiences?

The most valuable experiences were the opportunities to engage in a wide range of research topics.

5. Your public statement of truncated research interests relate to three universes of discourse: 1) “nature and causes of limitations in working memory capacity,” 2) “role of those differences in real-world cognitive tasks,” and 3) “association of working memory capacity and cognitive control to fluid intelligence.” With respect to these three core areas of research, how do the relevant disciplines define these core domains of interest? When did these interests solidify in professional life to these tinctures? What are these areas greatest single problems, per each domain, at the moment?

They all are facets of the same issue: the role of human limitations in information processing and how that impacts real-world life.  That leads to issues of whether those limitations can be modified within the individual and how our environment can be modified to reduce the impact of those limitations.

6. According to Google Scholar, your most cited article, Working memory, short-term memory, and general fluid intelligence: a latent-variable approach (1999), had citation over one thousand times to date.[20],[21],[22] (now nearly 2200 times, Engle) In terms of the specifics in relation to the research career, an interview cannot suffice in complete comprehension of a long, varied, and deep career, which implicates the necessity of selective coverage.

To preface the co-authored paper, you studied 133 participants.[23] Each performed 11 memory tasks, 2 general fluid intelligence tests, and quantitative and verbal Scholastic Aptitude Tests (SAT).[24],[25]  Memory tasks thought to relate to short-term memory and others to working memory.  Structural equation models mean a family of tests intended to test a conceptual or theoretical model. In this 1998 instance, a conceptual or theoretical model of a common construct.  There exists a robust relation between working memory and fluid intelligence; a non-robust relation between short-term memory and fluid intelligence.  A difference of each abilities’ degree of relation with the intermediary association of fluid intelligence. 

Your summative argument in this article states the capacity for working memory and fluid intelligence equate to the ability to “keep a representation active” in spite of distraction or interference.  Following, or in addition to, this, you connect this argument to “controlled attention” and the prefrontal cortex.  Where does the development of this separation between working memory and short-term memory stand 16 years past the original publication?

We are well beyond that separation and I am interested in just what the relationship between those two ideas is.  I expect it may be different at different developmental and ability levels with simple storage of information being more important with younger individuals and with individuals with lower cognitive abilities.

7. I talked to Dr. Anthony Greenwald over dinner a few years ago. At the time of the conversation, he considered cognitive neuroscience the future.  I paraphrase him:

The frontier lies in cognitive psychology and neuroscience.  However, a first generation of researchers, like the first round of soldiers marching out of the trenches, will fall – making all the necessary mistakes.  After that point, the next generation of researchers will have learned from those mistakes to make deep progress. 

Of course, his research functions out of the Implicit Association Test (IAT) and other areas.[26],[27] Does cognitive neuroscience take a larger role in this research at present compared to the past?  What about fluid intelligence (Gf) research at large?

Yes, it plays a very large role in our work.  The mind is what the brain does.  That means that ultimately we need to understand the two in connection with one another – neither can be understood on its own.  Fluid intelligence is, at this point, a largely statistical entity.  I am now trying to understand the mechanisms underlying fluid intelligence (Gf) and how those are related to and different from the mechanisms underlying working memory capacity (WMC).  I have a recently accepted paper that argues that while WMC and Gf are hugely correlated (.6-.8), they are different.  The tasks that we use to reflect WMC emphasize maintenance of information while the tasks used to measure Gf, such as Ravens and number series, emphasize the disengagement from previously attended to information.  The two mechanisms are therefore contradictory to one another. They are highly correlated because both rely on limited capacity attention control or executive attention to complete.  This is THE mechanism that is responsible for the correlation.  When that is measured and statistically removed from the WMC-Gf relationship, the relationship goes to near zero.

8. One can find claims of cognitive improvement programs while some report the more accurate, unfortunate, truths about “brain training” programs, even in numerous mainstream news venues, academic reports, and official consensus statements from the scientific community devoted to professional research into these domains.[28],[29],[30],[31],[32],[33],[34],[35],[36],[37],[38],[39] Collation and reportage from numerous venues contrary to the common advertising claims about the improvement of things such as fluid intelligence by the improvement of working memory. Brain training programs remain popular, and, apparently, highly hyped.  One article, entitled Does Brain Training Work?, with a partial quote from you, states:

Psychologist Randall Engle’s group at Georgia Tech has previously shown that working memory capacity is highly correlated with complex learning, problem solving, and general attention control. But he pointed out that this correlation does not mean that by increasing working memory capacity, fluid intelligence can be increased. “This idea that intelligence can be trained would be a great thing if it were true,” Engle said.[40] (Olena, 2014)

Therein lies the issue of brain training giving the appearance of promise for improvements in general cognitive function, but these persist in failure to replicate in practice or actuality.  In that, the apparent advertisements en masse do not have proportional empirical support.  Even some of the research from Susanne M. Jaeggi et al appears to provide some evidence in line with certain, specialized cognitive training tasks improving Gf, the research came out about the use of a dual n-back task for the improvement of fluid intelligence.[41],[42],[43],[44]  You attempted to replicate and failed to accomplish this.  What does this mean for “brain training” programs?  What about training the mind by other means?  What tasks, activities, and lifestyle approaches might, or do, delay the onset of cognitive declines or even improve cognitive ability? Does crystallized, fluid, or general intelligence remain mostly influenced by inborn ability, genetic endowment, and innate biological capacity, and minimally influenced by environment, parenting and upbringing, and educational interventions – especially as whole additions of age are taken into account?

Brain training programs work to improve the tasks used during training be the evidence is quite compelling that the training does not generalize to tasks other than those used during training or tasks very much like them.  Crystallized intelligence is everything you have learned and the amount and type of information you know is a result of many things including your fluid intelligence at the time you learned it but also motivational factors and what interests you – that is what draws your attention.

9. You continue to earn awards for teaching including the Ace Teacher Award, the Amoco Award for University Teacher of the Year, the Mortar Board Excellence in Teaching Award, the South Carolina Governor’s Professor of the Year, Distinguished Honors College Professor, as well as recognition through the first APA Division 3 Lifetime Achievement Award.[45],[46],[47],[48],[49],[50],[51]What place do you see for awards for academics?  What further duties and responsibilities does the recognition of accomplishments entail to you?

Awards are nice indicators that someone has recognized your work.  I have never met a teacher who does what they do best just to win awards however.  Awards are like dessert after a nice meal.

10. For more information and publications, individuals with the desire can reference the publications listing within the lab website or connect with the appropriate research databases for further information.[52],[53],[54],[55],[56] This interview provides partial, incomplete, and personal rather than majority academic information. What research do you intend to conduct in the near and far future? 

I mentioned that I am now interested in the psychological and brain mechanisms underlying WMC and Gf.  That will involve substantial psychometric as well as brain imaging work.  As I approach retirement age, I am quite amazed that I continue to be as interested in these questions as I ever was and I expect that I will continue trying to answer them, and the questions that arise from the research into those questions, as long as I have the financial resources necessary to run a lab such as mine.

11. In the FABBS foundation description of you, it states:

We also honor Randy for his tireless mentoring of the next generation of psychological scientists. While he has spearheaded the enormously influential research described above, he has also mentored (with similar care and pride to parenting his two now-grown children, Holly and Matt) a long line of grateful undergraduates, graduate students and post-docs, many of whom have gone on to considerable scientific and pedagogical success in cognitive psychology, cognitive neuroscience, quantitative methods, and beyond, teaching and conducting psychological research as faculty members at a remarkably diverse, multi-national collection of institutions, such as Indiana University-Purdue University Columbus, Kenyon College, Maryville College, Michigan State University, Princeton University, University of Burgundy, University of California at Irvine, University of Denver, University of Edinburgh, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, University of North Carolina at Greensboro, University of North Carolina at Wilmington, University of Oregon, University of Texas at San Antonio, University of Ulm, Washington University, Weill Medical College of Cornell University, Winthrop University, and Wichita State University.[57] 

In conclusion for this interview, and based upon the extensive level of mentoring over the decades by yourself for the upcoming generations of psychological scientists, what advice seems the best as a general algorithm, heuristic, rule of thumb, or principle for young psychological scientists in training?

Find a question that really intrigues you and pursue it with passion.  Publications, tenure, promotions, etc will all follow that but they should not be the raison d’etra for what you do.

Bibliography

  1. [GTtower] (2014). Dr. Randall Engle – Fall 2013 URK. Retrieved from https://vimeo.com/82132468.
  2. Association for Psychological Science (2013, October 8). ‘Brain Training’ May Boost Working Memory, But Not Intelligence. Retrieved from http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/news/releases/brain-training-may-boost-working-memory-but-not-intelligence.html.
  3. Association for Psychological Science (2015, May 8). New Research From Psychological Science. Retrieved from http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/news/releases/new-research-from-psychological-science-107.html.
  4. Attention and Working Memory Lab (2015). Attention and Working Memory Lab. Retrieved from http://englelab.gatech.edu/.
  5. Attention and Working Memory Lab (2015). Curriculum Vita: Randall W. Engle, School of Psychology, Georgia Institute of Technology. Retrieved from http://englelab.gatech.edu/cvs/rengle_cv-13.pdf.
  6. Attention and Working Memory Lab (2015). Primary Investigator. Retrieved from http://englelab.gatech.edu/randallengle.html.
  7. Attention and Working Memory Lab (2015). Publications. Retrieved from http://englelab.gatech.edu/publications.html.
  8. Azvolinski, A. (2014, November). Mind Games: The Truth About Brain-Fitness Programs. Retrieved from http://www.consumersdigest.com/special-reports/mind-games-the-truth-about-brain-fitness-programs/view-all.
  9. Barker, C.B. (2014, October 20). Scientific evidence does not support the brain game claims, Stanford scholars say. Retrieved from http://news.stanford.edu/news/2014/october/brain-games-carstensen-102014.html.
  10. Buschkuehl, M., Hernandez-Garcia, L., Jaeggi, S. M., Bernard, J. A., & Jonides, J. (2014). Neural effects of short-term training on working memory. Cognitive, Affective & Behavioral Neuroscience, 14(1), 147-160. doi:10.3758/s13415-013-0244-9
  11. Cameron, S. (2015). Brain Training Not All It’s Cracked Up To Be. Retrieved from http://singularityhub.com/tag/randall-engle/.
  12. Engle, R. (2014). Randy. Retrieved from http://englelab.gatech.edu/Randy.html.
  13. Engle, R., Tuholski, S.W., Laughlin, J.E., & Conway, A.R. (1999). Working memory, short-term memory, and general fluid intelligence: a latent-variable approach. Retrieved from http://englelab.gatech.edu/1999/working-memory2c-short3dterm-memory2c-and-general-fluid-intelligence.pdf.
  14. FABBS Foundation (2015). In Honor Of…Randall W. Engle. Retrieved from http://www.fabbs.org/index.php?cID=641.
  15. Georgia Institute of Technology (2015). Randall W. Engle. Retrieved from http://www.psychology.gatech.edu/people/faculty/engle_randy.php.
  16. Google Scholar (2015). Randall W. Engle. Retrieved from https://scholar.google.ca/citations?user=irWRyqcAAAAJ&hl=en.
  17. Griffith-Greene, M. (2015, April 10). Brain training games: No proof they prevent cognitive decline. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/health/brain-training-games-no-proof-they-prevent-cognitive-decline-1.3025212.
  18. Hareer, S. (2015, April 10). Forget Brain Training – Do This For Your Memory Instead. Retrieved from http://www.safebee.com/health/forget-brain-training-do-your-memory-instead.
  19. Harvard University (2015). Project Implicit. Retrieved from http://implicit.harvard.edu/.
  20. human intelligence. (2015). InEncyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/289766/human-intelligence.
  21. Interdisciplinary Centre for Applied Cognitive Sciences (2015). Engle Randall W., Ph.D.. Retrieved from http://www.icacs.swps.edu.pl/icacs/pl/members-2/wspolpracownicy-zagraniczni/176-engle-randall-w-ph-d..
  22. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/289799/IQ.
  23. Jaeggi, S. M., Buschkuehl, M., Jonides, J., & Perrig, W. J. (2008). Improving fluid intelligence with training on working memory. Proceedings Of The National Academy Of Sciences Of The United States Of America, 105(19), 6829-6833. doi:10.1073/pnas.0801268105
  24. Jaeggi, S. M., Buschkuehl, M., Jonides, J., & Shah, P. (2011). Short- and long-term benefits of cognitive training. PNAS Proceedings Of The National Academy Of Sciences Of The United States Of America, 108(25), 10081-10086. doi:10.1073/pnas.1103228108
  25. Jaeggi, S. M., Buschkuehl, M., Shah, P., & Jonides, J. (2014). The role of individual differences in cognitive training and transfer. Memory & Cognition, 42(3), 464-480. doi:10.3758/s13421-013-0364-z
  26. Koenig, R. (2014, October 22). Brain-Training Companies Get Advice From Some Academics, Criticism From Others. Retrieved from http://m.chronicle.com/article/Brain-Training-Companies-Get/149555/.
  27. Max Planck Institute for Human Development (2014, October 20). A Consensus on Brain Training from the Scientific Community. Retrieved from http://longevity3.stanford.edu/blog/2014/10/15/the-consensus-on-the-brain-training-industry-from-the-scientific-community-2/.
  28. Myers, D. (2015, May 8). Does Video Game-Playing Sharpen Mental Skills and Speed?. Retrieved from https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/talk-psych/201505/does-video-game-playing-sharpen-mental-skills-and-speed.
  29. Olena, A. (2014, April 21). Does Brain Training Work?. Retrieved from http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/39768/title/Does-Brain-Training-Work-/.
  30. psychological testing. (2015). InEncyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/481664/psychological-testing.
  31. Research Gate (2015). Randall Engle. Retrieved from http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Randall_Engle.
  32. Underwood, E. (2014, October 22). Neuroscientists speak out against brain game hype. Retrieved from http://news.sciencemag.org/brain-behavior/2014/10/neuroscientists-speak-out-against-brain-game-hype.
  33. University of Edinburgh (2015). University of Edinburgh. Retrieved from http://www.ed.ac.uk/home.
  34. University of Edinburgh (2015). University of Edinburgh: Department of Psychology. Retrieved from http://www.psy.ed.ac.uk/.
  35. University of Edinburgh (2015). University of Edinburgh: Prof Randall Engle. Retrieved from http://www.ppls.ed.ac.uk/people/randall-engle.
  36. University of Washington (2015). Anthony G. Greenwald, PhD. Retrieved from http://faculty.washington.edu/agg/.
  37. Weir, K. (2014, October). Mind Games: Can brain-training games keep your mind young?. Retrieved from http://www.apa.org/monitor/2014/10/mind-games.aspx.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Adjunct Professor, Psychiatry, Emory Medical School; Professional Fellow, Psychology, University of Edinburgh; Principle Investigator, Attention and Working Memory Lab, Georgia Institute of Technology; Director, GSU/GT Center for Advanced Brain Imaging.

[2] Individual Publication Date: May 22, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-professor-randell-engle-adjunct-professor-psychiatry-emory-medical-school-professional-fellow-psychology-university-of-edinburgh-principle-investigator-attention-and-working; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2016 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] PhD, Ohio State University; MA, Ohio State University; BA, West Virginia.

[4]  Attention and Working Memory Lab (2015). Primary Investigator. Retrieved from http://englelab.gatech.edu/randallengle.html.

[5]  Georgia Institute of Technology (2015). Randall W. Engle. Retrieved from http://www.psychology.gatech.edu/people/faculty/engle_randy.php.

[6]  University of Edinburgh (2015). University of Edinburgh: Prof Randall Engle. Retrieved from http://www.ppls.ed.ac.uk/people/randall-engle.

[7]  FABBS Foundation (2015). In Honor Of…Randall W. Engle. Retrieved from http://www.fabbs.org/index.php?cID=641.

[8]  Association for Psychological Science (2013, October 8). ‘Brain Training’ May Boost Working Memory, But Not Intelligence. Retrieved from http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/news/releases/brain-training-may-boost-working-memory-but-not-intelligence.html.

[9]  [GTtower] (2014). Dr. Randall Engle – Fall 2013 URK. Retrieved from https://vimeo.com/82132468.

[10]  Research Gate (2015). Randall Engle. Retrieved from http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Randall_Engle.

[11]  Interdisciplinary Centre for Applied Cognitive Sciences (2015). Engle Randall W., Ph.D.. Retrieved from http://www.icacs.swps.edu.pl/icacs/pl/members-2/wspolpracownicy-zagraniczni/176-engle-randall-w-ph-d..

[12]  Engle, R. (2014). Randy. Retrieved from http://englelab.gatech.edu/Randy.html.

[13]  Attention and Working Memory Lab (2015). Primary Investigator. Retrieved from http://englelab.gatech.edu/randallengle.html.

[14]  Georgia Institute of Technology (2015). Randall W. Engle. Retrieved from http://www.psychology.gatech.edu/people/faculty/engle_randy.php.

[15]  University of Edinburgh (2015). University of Edinburgh: Prof Randall Engle. Retrieved from http://www.ppls.ed.ac.uk/people/randall-engle.

[16]  FABBS Foundation (2015). In Honor Of…Randall W. Engle. Retrieved from http://www.fabbs.org/index.php?cID=641.

[17]  Research Gate (2015). Randall Engle. Retrieved from http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Randall_Engle.

[18]  Attention and Working Memory Lab (2015). Primary Investigator. Retrieved from http://englelab.gatech.edu/randallengle.html.

[19]  Ibid.

[20]  Engle, R., Tuholski, S.W., Laughlin, J.E., & Conway, A.R. (1999). Working memory, short-term memory, and general fluid intelligence: a latent-variable approach. Retrieved from http://englelab.gatech.edu/1999/working-memory2c-short3dterm-memory2c-and-general-fluid-intelligence.pdf.

[21]  Google Scholar (2015). Randall W. Engle. Retrieved from https://scholar.google.ca/citations?user=irWRyqcAAAAJ&hl=en.

[22]  IQ. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/289799/IQ.

[23]  Engle, R., Tuholski, S.W., Laughlin, J.E., & Conway, A.R. (1999). Working memory, short-term memory, and general fluid intelligence: a latent-variable approach. Retrieved from http://englelab.gatech.edu/1999/working-memory2c-short3dterm-memory2c-and-general-fluid-intelligence.pdf.

[24]  psychological testing. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/481664/psychological-testing.

[25]  human intelligence. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/289766/human-intelligence.

[26]  University of Washington (2015). Anthony G. Greenwald, PhD. Retrieved from http://faculty.washington.edu/agg/.

[27]  Harvard University (2015). Project Implicit. Retrieved from http://implicit.harvard.edu/.

[28]  Azvolinski, A. (2014, November). Mind Games: The Truth About Brain-Fitness Programs. Retrieved from http://www.consumersdigest.com/special-reports/mind-games-the-truth-about-brain-fitness-programs/view-all.

[29]  Hareer, S. (2015, April 10). Forget Brain Training – Do This For Your Memory Instead. Retrieved from http://www.safebee.com/health/forget-brain-training-do-your-memory-instead.

[30]  Weir, K. (2014, October). Mind Games: Can brain-training games keep your mind young?. Retrieved from http://www.apa.org/monitor/2014/10/mind-games.aspx.

[31]  Max Planck Institute for Human Development (2014, October 20). A Consensus on Brain Training from the Scientific Community. Retrieved from http://longevity3.stanford.edu/blog/2014/10/15/the-consensus-on-the-brain-training-industry-from-the-scientific-community-2/.

[32]  Myers, D. (2015, May 8). Does Video Game-Playing Sharpen Mental Skills and Speed?. Retrieved from https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/talk-psych/201505/does-video-game-playing-sharpen-mental-skills-and-speed.

[33]  Cameron, S. (2015). Brain Training Not All It’s Cracked Up To Be. Retrieved from http://singularityhub.com/tag/randall-engle/.

[34]  Olena, A. (2014, April 21). Does Brain Training Work?. Retrieved from http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/39768/title/Does-Brain-Training-Work-/.

[35]  Griffith-Greene, M. (2015, April 10). Brain training games: No proof they prevent cognitive decline. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/health/brain-training-games-no-proof-they-prevent-cognitive-decline-1.3025212.

[36]  Underwood, E. (2014, October 22). Neuroscientists speak out against brain game hype. Retrieved from http://news.sciencemag.org/brain-behavior/2014/10/neuroscientists-speak-out-against-brain-game-hype.

[37]  Koenig, R. (2014, October 22). Brain-Training Companies Get Advice From Some Academics, Criticism From Others. Retrieved from http://m.chronicle.com/article/Brain-Training-Companies-Get/149555/.

[38]  Barker, C.B. (2014, October 20). Scientific evidence does not support the brain game claims, Stanford scholars say. Retrieved from http://news.stanford.edu/news/2014/october/brain-games-carstensen-102014.html.

[39]  Association for Psychological Science (2015, May 8). New Research From Psychological Science. Retrieved from http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/news/releases/new-research-from-psychological-science-107.html.

[40]  Olena, A. (2014, April 21). Does Brain Training Work?. Retrieved from http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/39768/title/Does-Brain-Training-Work-/.

[41]  Jaeggi, S. M., Buschkuehl, M., Shah, P., & Jonides, J. (2014). The role of individual differences in cognitive training and transfer. Memory & Cognition, 42(3), 464-480. doi:10.3758/s13421-013-0364-z

[42]  Buschkuehl, M., Hernandez-Garcia, L., Jaeggi, S. M., Bernard, J. A., & Jonides, J. (2014). Neural effects of short-term training on working memory. Cognitive, Affective & Behavioral Neuroscience, 14(1), 147-160. doi:10.3758/s13415-013-0244-9

[43]  Jaeggi, S. M., Buschkuehl, M., Jonides, J., & Shah, P. (2011). Short- and long-term benefits of cognitive training. PNAS Proceedings Of The National Academy Of Sciences Of The United States Of America, 108(25), 10081-10086. doi:10.1073/pnas.1103228108

[44]  Jaeggi, S. M., Buschkuehl, M., Jonides, J., & Perrig, W. J. (2008). Improving fluid intelligence with training on working memory. Proceedings Of The National Academy Of Sciences Of The United States Of America, 105(19), 6829-6833. doi:10.1073/pnas.0801268105

[45]  Attention and Working Memory Lab (2015). Primary Investigator. Retrieved from http://englelab.gatech.edu/randallengle.html.

[46]  Georgia Institute of Technology (2015). Randall W. Engle. Retrieved from http://www.psychology.gatech.edu/people/faculty/engle_randy.php.

[47]  University of Edinburgh (2015). University of Edinburgh: Prof Randall Engle. Retrieved from http://www.ppls.ed.ac.uk/people/randall-engle.

[48]  FABBS Foundation (2015). In Honor Of…Randall W. Engle. Retrieved from http://www.fabbs.org/index.php?cID=641.

[49]  Research Gate (2015). Randall Engle. Retrieved from http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Randall_Engle.

[50]  Attention and Working Memory Lab (2015). Primary Investigator. Retrieved from http://englelab.gatech.edu/randallengle.html.

[51]  Ibid.

[52]  Attention and Working Memory Lab (2015). Publications. Retrieved from http://englelab.gatech.edu/publications.html.

[53]  Attention and Working Memory Lab (2015). Attention and Working Memory Lab. Retrieved from http://englelab.gatech.edu/.

[54]  Attention and Working Memory Lab (2015). Curriculum Vita: Randall W. Engle, School of Psychology, Georgia Institute of Technology. Retrieved from http://englelab.gatech.edu/cvs/rengle_cv-13.pdf.

[55]  Attention and Working Memory Lab (2015). Primary Investigator. Retrieved from http://englelab.gatech.edu/randallengle.html.

[56]  Google Scholar (2015). Randall W. Engle. Retrieved from https://scholar.google.ca/citations?user=irWRyqcAAAAJ&hl=en.

[57]  FABBS Foundation (2015). In Honor Of…Randall W. Engle. Retrieved from http://www.fabbs.org/index.php?cID=641.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Professor Randall Engle: Adjunct Professor, Psychiatry, Emory Medical School; Professional Fellow, Psychology, University of Edinburgh; Principle Investigator, Attention and Working Memory Lab, Georgia Institute of Technology; Director, GSU/GT Center for Advanced Brain Imaging [Online].May 2016; 11(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-professor-randell-engle-adjunct-professor-psychiatry-emory-medical-school-professional-fellow-psychology-university-of-edinburgh-principle-investigator-attention-and-working.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, May 22). An Interview with Professor Randall Engle: Adjunct Professor, Psychiatry, Emory Medical School; Professional Fellow, Psychology, University of Edinburgh; Principle Investigator, Attention and Working Memory Lab, Georgia Institute of Technology; Director, GSU/GT Center for Advanced Brain Imaging. Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-professor-randell-engle-adjunct-professor-psychiatry-emory-medical-school-professional-fellow-psychology-university-of-edinburgh-principle-investigator-attention-and-working.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Professor Randall Engle: Adjunct Professor, Psychiatry, Emory Medical School; Professional Fellow, Psychology, University of Edinburgh; Principle Investigator, Attention and Working Memory Lab, Georgia Institute of Technology; Director, GSU/GT Center for Advanced Brain Imaging. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A, May. 2016. <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-professor-randell-engle-adjunct-professor-psychiatry-emory-medical-school-professional-fellow-psychology-university-of-edinburgh-principle-investigator-attention-and-working>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An Interview with Professor Randall Engle: Adjunct Professor, Psychiatry, Emory Medical School; Professional Fellow, Psychology, University of Edinburgh; Principle Investigator, Attention and Working Memory Lab, Georgia Institute of Technology; Director, GSU/GT Center for Advanced Brain Imaging.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-professor-randell-engle-adjunct-professor-psychiatry-emory-medical-school-professional-fellow-psychology-university-of-edinburgh-principle-investigator-attention-and-working.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Professor Randall Engle: Adjunct Professor, Psychiatry, Emory Medical School; Professional Fellow, Psychology, University of Edinburgh; Principle Investigator, Attention and Working Memory Lab, Georgia Institute of Technology; Director, GSU/GT Center for Advanced Brain Imaging.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A (May 2016). www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-professor-randell-engle-adjunct-professor-psychiatry-emory-medical-school-professional-fellow-psychology-university-of-edinburgh-principle-investigator-attention-and-working.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Professor Randall Engle: Adjunct Professor, Psychiatry, Emory Medical School; Professional Fellow, Psychology, University of Edinburgh; Principle Investigator, Attention and Working Memory Lab, Georgia Institute of Technology; Director, GSU/GT Center for Advanced Brain Imaging’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-professor-randell-engle-adjunct-professor-psychiatry-emory-medical-school-professional-fellow-psychology-university-of-edinburgh-principle-investigator-attention-and-working>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Professor Randall Engle: Adjunct Professor, Psychiatry, Emory Medical School; Professional Fellow, Psychology, University of Edinburgh; Principle Investigator, Attention and Working Memory Lab, Georgia Institute of Technology; Director, GSU/GT Center for Advanced Brain Imaging‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-professor-randell-engle-adjunct-professor-psychiatry-emory-medical-school-professional-fellow-psychology-university-of-edinburgh-principle-investigator-attention-and-working.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Professor Randall Engle: Adjunct Professor, Psychiatry, Emory Medical School; Professional Fellow, Psychology, University of Edinburgh; Principle Investigator, Attention and Working Memory Lab, Georgia Institute of Technology; Director, GSU/GT Center for Advanced Brain Imaging.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11.A (2016):May. 2016. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-professor-randell-engle-adjunct-professor-psychiatry-emory-medical-school-professional-fellow-psychology-university-of-edinburgh-principle-investigator-attention-and-working>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Professor Randall Engle: Adjunct Professor, Psychiatry, Emory Medical School; Professional Fellow, Psychology, University of Edinburgh; Principle Investigator, Attention and Working Memory Lab, Georgia Institute of Technology; Director, GSU/GT Center for Advanced Brain Imaging [Internet]. (2016, May); 11(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-professor-randell-engle-adjunct-professor-psychiatry-emory-medical-school-professional-fellow-psychology-university-of-edinburgh-principle-investigator-attention-and-working.

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2016-05-15

Prof. Dr. Kinshuk: Professor, School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University; Associate Dean, Faculty of Science and Technology, Athabasca University; NSERC Industrial Research Chair (Adaptivity and Personalization), School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University (Part Two)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Numbering: Issue 11.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Six)

Individual Publication Date: May 15, 2016 (2016-05-15)

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2016 (2016-09-01)

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Web Domain: www.in-sightjournal.com

Words: 3,632

ISSN 2369-6885

Professor Kinshuk.jpg

Abstract

Interview with Dr. Kinshuk. Professor in the School of Computing and Information Systems at Athabasca University, Associate Dean in the Faculty of Science and Technology at Athabasca University, and NSERC Industrial Research Chair (Adaptivity and Personalization) in the School of Computing and Information Systems at Athabasca University. He discusses: Smart learning – a new approach or simply a new name (2015) and the proper approach to the improvement of the methodology undergirding teaching; Canada remaining competitive on the global educational index; Canada becoming number one; the problem of mismatch between skills and training, and positions from education and the economy; the future of the educational world in the middle of the 21st century; technological impacts on education inn the 22nd century; Technology Enhanced Knowledge Research Institute: Research Profile: Dr. Kinshuk (2009) and other aspects of educational technology to improve education for students; negatives from educational technology in terms of resource expenditure for students; and assistance to those with lost educational time and progress via technology.

Keywords: Athabasca University, Canada Research Chair, Educational Technology, Informatics, Professor Kinshuk.

Prof. Dr. Kinshuk: Professor, School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University; Associate Dean, Faculty of Science and Technology, Athabasca University; NSERC Industrial Research Chair (Adaptivity and Personalization), School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

12. In Smart learning – a new approach or simply a new name (2015), you discuss the nature of smart systems with the emphasis on teaching in contrast to intelligent systems. What seems like the proper approach to improvement of the methodology undergirding teaching – in possible conjunction with intelligent systems or adaptive systems?

Our current education system has a number of challenges. While there are many efforts to improve education, majority of the system is geared towards average education opportunities instead of focus on individual students. Increasing class sizes do not help either. What we need is a revolution, instead of evolution of educational system. Old pedagogies are very restrictive in terms of taking advantage of the advancements in technologies and the analytics capabilities that allow far more comprehensive analysis of the individual student’s learning environment and situation that was ever possible before. Focus on individual student and longitudinal analysis and support in order to develop the individual strengths at their full capacity while recognizing, as early as possible, need for intervention to remedy any weaknesses, requires a paradigm shift in terms of pedagogical interventions. Technology can provide excellent support but education has to be in driving seat for the process to be successful. I have recently penned some idea on this jointly with some of my collaborators:

Kinshuk; Chen, N.-S.; Cheng, I.-L.; Chew, S. W. (2016). Evolution Is Not Enough: Revolutionizing Current Learning Environments to Smart Learning Environments. International Journal of Artificial Intelligence in Education, retrieved from http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs40593-016-0108-x.

13. In reference to, and extrapolation from, the brief article mentioned in the previous question, how might Canadian universities improve the core aspects of pedagogy?

Providing authentic opportunities to the students, where students not only learn the knowledge and skills but also how to actualize what they have learnt, is the key in my opinion. It would be very wrong to say that it is not happening already. There are some excellent efforts out there but they are rather isolated. What we need is a systemic approach, where the focus shifts from “majority benefit” to “benefit for every student” approach. Technology can very much help by providing analytics to identify at-risk students, opportunistic learning instances and other affordances that can take the learning process to next level.

14. The World Economic Forum calculated the competitiveness of countries throughout the globe.[5] Canada ranked 15th.[6] A decent rank.[7] How might Canada remain competitive in the global educational market?[8]

There is an increasing trend of comparing education to commercial sector, which is worrying. While education needs effectiveness, its efficiency needs to be analyzed by making sure we have graduates that are prepared for the next generation jobs that perhaps do not even exist yet. The only way we can do that is to prepare them for meta-learning skills, such as critical thinking, innovation, collaboration and other so called 21st century skills. Current focus is on how to make good employees who are ready to undertake generic jobs the day they graduate, does not prepare them for becoming entrepreneur and employers, which is what Canada has historically been known for. That has to change if we are to remain competitive.

15. A more extravagant question than remaining in the upper echelons of the global competitiveness index.[9] How might Canada become number one?[10]

Preparing our next generation to become successful innovators, creators, entrepreneur and critical thinkers will bring Canada to number one in the global competitiveness index. There have been some efforts in this area, but improved support for fundamental research, embracing out-of-the-box ideas, and true support for multidisciplinary research are some avenues where much more effort is required.

16. We have an issue with respect to poor proportion between the credentials acquired from accredited programs, colleges, universities, and higher-learning research institutions, and the jobs/careers in the world. Graduates and students remain in a partial bind.

In addition to this issue, we have the problem of predatory for-profit institutions with questionable credentialing. A link exists between these two; false promises to students and students’ uncritical gaze.

On the one hand, students contain the capability to discern the negative aspects of the educational world in mis-matched institutional programs and false advertising in profit-driven institutions such as the for-profit ones.

On the other hand, accredited programs, colleges, universities, and higher-learning research institutions, create programs with the proposition of their accreditation having connection to the economic world, and non-accredited institutions aimed at profit rather than education.

Together, these create a toxic mix, but students take the brunt of it, economically – which extends into long-term wellbeing, immediate mental health, and SES precariousness. What might solve these problems from the various referents in question – no single individual/collective to harbor complete blame?

There is indeed no one entity to blame. This is an outcome of mismatched agendas, and economic benefits driving educational programs. This relates to what I mentioned earlier – if the desire is to get high salary jobs, then this rat race will continue. If the focus shifts to becoming something that creates jobs for others, then not only institutions will find it important to offer the programs that are not directly linked with economic sector but students will also find it necessary to focus on different skill set. This does not mean that we do not prepare students for the available jobs. Rather, the students will be better prepared for the jobs as they will have the skill sets that help them take their organization to success, instead of simply focusing on nine to five jobs.

17. Our modern technological world continues to shirk responsibility from human beings to machines, to robots. A possibility to leave individual citizens of countries with sufficient gifts and talents to take on more fulfilling work. A good thing. 

It leaves those without the gifts and talents without decent-paying jobs in accordance with the value to the market. An actuality to leave these individual citizens of countries without the ability to take on more fulfilling work. A bad thing.

We observe this in assembly lines, for instance. This changes in consonance with the supply and demand of the market, then changes social and cultural life, and then alters the demands on the educational system from the political and governmental recommendations through direct means such as funding.

This change will increase in pace, apparently. We seem to be in an occasion of upheaval, a modern shift, akin to the Industrial Revolution. In light of this, what seems like the future of the educational world for the middle of the 21st century – 25-50 years from now?

I do not agree that there are people who are without gifts or talents. The problem is that their individual gifts and talents are not recognized properly and they are involved in activities where their individual strengths are not used. That is where we need to start focusing on understanding our students better, identifying their strengths and providing infrastructure and support to make them shine. This is exactly what smart learning intends to do. The change is certainly coming, whether we like it or not, and if we are to make sure that our graduates, all of them, are ready, we need revolution in education!

18. Your expertise seems relevant here. However, it might seem a bit too far into the future, granted. Regardless, how will technology impact education in the 22nd century?

Technology is making it easier to learn at will, at places where the knowledge and skills are actually needed, and at times when learning makes the most sense. Technology also makes it possible to learn from virtually anyone, in any circumstances, and to make sense of all nuggets of learning, how small or big they may be, to build overall picture. Combine this with empowering our graduates to exercise their creativity and innovation, and we are preparing our path towards 22nd century education.

19. In Technology Enhanced Knowledge Research Institute: Research Profile: Dr. Kinshuk (2009), it states:

  • remove some of the barriers to education, especially for people who live in areas with little or no local access to higher education
  • give students an authentic and rich experienceby adding context to their learning, making it more likely that they’ll complete their programs
  • encourage and make it possible for more people to take part in the economyand to advance their careers because they can acquire the knowledge they need to do so
  • capitalize on what people already know and the learning potential that existswhere they live and work
  • reduce family and community disruption by letting students stay in their home communities and maintain their current employment[11]

What other aspects of educational technology improves the education of students?

There are many areas where educational technologies can help. For example, emerging technologies such as virtual reality and augmented reality provide excellent opportunities for merging work experiences to enhance contextual orientation of learning. Learning can be fully immersive within the work environment, so that the transfer of knowledge from learning immediately benefits work and skills acquired in work leverage the next learning experience.

Educational technology also has potential to bring world-class expertise to the students without much expense. Students can get the best that is available without the geographical restrictions.

Of course, none of this would work if appropriate pedagogies to make this happen are not in place. So, pedagogical shift goes hand-in-hand with exploiting advancements in educational technology.

20. What negatives come from educational technology to students’ lives and in terms of resource expenditure?

There are two major issues that need to be considered. First one is that application of educational technology for the sake of adopting new technology is a recipe for disaster. Technology must be governed by the educational needs and the learning should be at the forefront. Second, appropriate pedagogies need to be developed to cater for the new affordances educational technology provides. Changing situations need changing considerations. What used to work with previous generation is not guaranteed to work with the generation that has grown surrounded by technologies and gadgets. Vigorous pedagogical research is needed and the outcomes of those research, once validated, need to be applied to benefit larger student community. This is an area that is critically lagging behind.

So, the problem is not educational technology, but its appropriate use through suitable pedagogy.

21. To close, let’s take, for instance, concrete cases of educational disruption. Syria represents a singular tragedy in the early 21st century. Others exist, but for this conversation represent something unique in a narrow consideration. Namely, the loss of talent and skills through lost time in education. How might technology assist those with lost educational time and progress relative to their international cohort/peers?

This is a very important question, and an opportunity where technology has great potential to help. Technology can break the barriers of geographical restrictions, bring expertise to those who cannot go to the experts themselves, and provide just-in-time learning and training opportunities to provide skills and knowledge that are needed at a particular time and place.

We experienced this first hand during Tsunami of 2004 that affected a large part of Maldives. One of my then PhD students Dr. Ali Fawaz Shareef, who is now the Vice Chancellor of the Maldives National University was able to apply his research in educational technology to facilitate learning for large number of students when teachers could not reach to those students due to the aftermath of Tsunami. Details of his educational technology solution are available in his doctoral thesis: http://mro.massey.ac.nz/handle/10179/3764

Furthermore, educational technology is now making it possible to access knowledge in terms of massive open online courses that are accessible anywhere and anytime, which enable people to pick those key nuggets that could help them fill the gaps in their competence that were created due to certain situations, be those be the lost time or simple unavailability of appropriate educational opportunity in their vicinity.

Overall, world is changing rapidly and opportunistic learning scenarios are becoming available more than ever before. All we need is to channel our efforts in right direction, and make sure pedagogy drives the technological applications in education. In the absence of that, technological advancements will have no option than to take over, and that may not bode well for the success in moving education in right direction. We are at the juncture where we need revolution in education to even keep up with the speed of technological evolution!

Thank you for your time, Professor Kinshuk.

References

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Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Professor, School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University; Associate Dean, Faculty of Science and Technology, Athabasca University; NSERC Industrial Research Chair (Adaptvity and Personalization), School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University; Research Fellow (10/96 – 06/99), GMD – German National Research Center for Information Technology, Human Computer Interactions Institute, St. Augustin, Germany (Performance Award: August 1998); Senior Lecturer (06/99-07/01), Information System Department, Massey University, New Zealand; Associate Professor (08/01 – 08/06), Information System Department, Massey University, New Zealand; Director (07/03 – 08/06), Advanced Learning Technologies Research Centre, Massey University, New Zealand (Founding Director); Director (08/06 – 10/10), School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University, Canada; Professor (Since 08/06), School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University, Canada; NSERC Industrial Research Chair (Adaptivity & Personalization, Since 04/10), Athabasca University, Canada; Associate Dean (Research and Graduate Programs, Since 11/10), Faculty of Science and Technology, Athabasca University, Canada.

[2] Individual Publication Date: May 15, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com/prof-dr-kinshuk-professor-school-of-computing-and-information-systems-athabasca-university-associate-dean-faculty-of-science-and-technology-athabasca-university-nserc-industrial-research-chai; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2016 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Bachelor of Engineering (Mechanical) (Honors) (1987-1992), Rajasthan University; Master of Science Mechanical Computer Aided Eng. (1992-1993), Strathclyde University; Doctor of Philosophy (1993-1996), De Montfort University, (Thesis: Computer Aided Learning for Entry Level Accountancy Students).

[4] Images/photographs/portraits/sketches courtesy of Dr. Kinshuk.

[5] World Economic Forum. (2015). Competitiveness Rankings. Retrieved from http://reports.weforum.org/global-competitiveness-report-2014-2015/rankings/.

[6] Ibid.

[7] Ibid.

[8] Ibid.

[9] Ibid.

[10] Ibid.

[11] Athabasca University. (2015). Technology Enhanced Knowledge Research Institute: Research Profile: Dr. Kinshuk. Retrieved from https://tekri.athabascau.ca/content/research-profile-dr-kinshuk.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Dr. Kinshuk: Professor, School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University; Associate Dean, Faculty of Science and Technology, Athabasca University; NSERC Industrial Research Chair (Adaptivity and Personalization), School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University (Part Two) [Online].May 2016; 11(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/prof-dr-kinshuk-professor-school-of-computing-and-information-systems-athabasca-university-associate-dean-faculty-of-science-and-technology-athabasca-university-nserc-industrial-research-chai.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, May 15). Dr. Kinshuk: Professor, School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University; Associate Dean, Faculty of Science and Technology, Athabasca University; NSERC Industrial Research Chair (Adaptivity and Personalization), School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University (Part Two). Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/prof-dr-kinshuk-professor-school-of-computing-and-information-systems-athabasca-university-associate-dean-faculty-of-science-and-technology-athabasca-university-nserc-industrial-research-chai.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Dr. Kinshuk: Professor, School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University; Associate Dean, Faculty of Science and Technology, Athabasca University; NSERC Industrial Research Chair (Adaptivity and Personalization), School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A, May. 2016. <www.in-sightjournal.com/prof-dr-kinshuk-professor-school-of-computing-and-information-systems-athabasca-university-associate-dean-faculty-of-science-and-technology-athabasca-university-nserc-industrial-research-chai>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “Dr. Kinshuk: Professor, School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University; Associate Dean, Faculty of Science and Technology, Athabasca University; NSERC Industrial Research Chair (Adaptivity and Personalization), School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/prof-dr-kinshuk-professor-school-of-computing-and-information-systems-athabasca-university-associate-dean-faculty-of-science-and-technology-athabasca-university-nserc-industrial-research-chai.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Dr. Kinshuk: Professor, School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University; Associate Dean, Faculty of Science and Technology, Athabasca University; NSERC Industrial Research Chair (Adaptivity and Personalization), School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A (May 2016). www.in-sightjournal.com/prof-dr-kinshuk-professor-school-of-computing-and-information-systems-athabasca-university-associate-dean-faculty-of-science-and-technology-athabasca-university-nserc-industrial-research-chai.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘Dr. Kinshuk: Professor, School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University; Associate Dean, Faculty of Science and Technology, Athabasca University; NSERC Industrial Research Chair (Adaptivity and Personalization), School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University (Part Two)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/prof-dr-kinshuk-professor-school-of-computing-and-information-systems-athabasca-university-associate-dean-faculty-of-science-and-technology-athabasca-university-nserc-industrial-research-chai>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘Dr. Kinshuk: Professor, School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University; Associate Dean, Faculty of Science and Technology, Athabasca University; NSERC Industrial Research Chair (Adaptivity and Personalization), School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/prof-dr-kinshuk-professor-school-of-computing-and-information-systems-athabasca-university-associate-dean-faculty-of-science-and-technology-athabasca-university-nserc-industrial-research-chai.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Dr. Kinshuk: Professor, School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University; Associate Dean, Faculty of Science and Technology, Athabasca University; NSERC Industrial Research Chair (Adaptivity and Personalization), School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11.A (2016):May. 2016. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/prof-dr-kinshuk-professor-school-of-computing-and-information-systems-athabasca-university-associate-dean-faculty-of-science-and-technology-athabasca-university-nserc-industrial-research-chai>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Prof. Dr. Kinshuk: Professor, School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University; Associate Dean, Faculty of Science and Technology, Athabasca University; NSERC Industrial Research Chair (Adaptivity and Personalization), School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University (Part Two) [Internet]. (2016, May); 11(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/prof-dr-kinshuk-professor-school-of-computing-and-information-systems-athabasca-university-associate-dean-faculty-of-science-and-technology-athabasca-university-nserc-industrial-research-chai.

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2016-05-08

Prof. Dr. Kinshuk: Professor, School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University; Associate Dean, Faculty of Science and Technology, Athabasca University; NSERC Industrial Research Chair (Adaptivity and Personalization), School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University (Part One)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Numbering: Issue 11.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Six)

Individual Publication Date: May 8, 2016 (2016-05-08)

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2016 (2016-09-01)

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Web Domain: www.in-sightjournal.com

Words: 4,001

ISSN 2369-6885

Professor Kinshuk.jpg

Abstract

Interview with Dr. Kinshuk. Professor in the School of Computing and Information Systems at Athabasca University, Associate Dean in the Faculty of Science and Technology at Athabasca University, and NSERC Industrial Research Chair (Adaptivity and Personalization) in the School of Computing and Information Systems at Athabasca University. He discusses: geographic, cultural and linguistic background; responsibilities with exposure; relation between informatics  and educational technology; electronic exposure and its influence on interactions; stations from the past to the present; research interests and their motivations; instigation for area of teaching; power and responsibility that comes with the associate dean position; Canada Research Chair developments; future research from 2015-202 for the Canada Research Chair position; biggest personal dream for Athabasca University.

Keywords: Athabasca University, Canada Research Chair, Educational Technology, Informatics, Professor Kinshuk.

Prof. Dr. Kinshuk: Professor, School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University; Associate Dean, Faculty of Science and Technology, Athabasca University; NSERC Industrial Research Chair (Adaptivity and Personalization), School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. In terms of geography, culture, and language, where does family background reside?[5],[6],[7],[8]

I was born in west-north part of India and grew up in a Hindi speaking family. I come from a middle income family, and that is perhaps why I always look for the value of the money and the need in everything I do, particularly research. My focus on applied research has a lot of influence from by background.

2. You have representation in numerous publications and online resources – countless.[9],[10],[11],[12],[13],[14],[15],[16],[17],[18],[19],[20],[21],[22],[23],[24],[25],[26],[27],[28],[29],[30],[31],[32],[33],[34],[35],[36],[37],[38],[39],[40],[41],[42],[43],[44],[45],[46],[47],[48],[49],[50],[51],[52],[53],[54],[55] Most refer to conferences, papers, and personal profiles. What responsibilities come with this exposure?

I see myself very fortunate to have opportunities where I could contribute, even in small way. None of those would have been possible if I did not have the help, support and guidance of my colleagues, partners and collaborators, including students. So, I see my responsibility as to make sure my research and other activities reflect the confidence everyone has given to me.

3. What core relation exists between informatics and educational technology?

While informatics is critical component of educational technology, it is very important to realize at the outset that technology is to support education. Education is first and foremost. However, informatics provides educational technology many tools that make it possible to provide educational affordances that were very difficult if not impossible before. Being able to use the global content through the medium of Internet is perhaps the biggest example where informatics has benefited educational technology, but recent advances in informatics such as learning analytics allow us to understand the learning process better, identify evidences of learning, and make use of the data available from the learners’ context to provide better support in the learning process. Context-aware systems, another example, allow the level of adaptivity and personalization that has potential to transform the education.

4. How does this electronic exposure influence interactions with the public and private sectors of Athabasca, Alberta, neighbouring provinces, territory, and country, Canada as a whole, and abroad in the globe?[56],[57],[58]

Electronic exposure has indeed provided the opportunity to showcase the work we are doing within our team and with our partners and collaborators. The outreach through the electronic exposure is something that is beyond what could be achieved otherwise. The interactions as a result have been extremely positive with various stakeholders within the university as well as externally, with communities, government, industry, and other research and academic organizations. It is interesting to observe that such electronic exposure is very much inline with the online nature of Athabasca University. So, the credibility that goes with it also helps the interactions.

5. Let’s time travel from the present into the past: you worked as the vice president for the International Association of Smart Learning Environments (January, 2013-present), editor-in-chief of the Journal of Educational Technology & Society, (October, 1998-present), editor-in-chief of the Smart Learning Environments Journal (January, 2014-present), co-ordinator for the International Forum of Educational Technology & Society (January, 1998), chair of the IEEE Technical Committee on Learning Technology (January, 2003-December, 2007), president of the Distance Education Association of New Zealand (January, 2005-December, 2006), executive committee member of the Asia Pacific Society for Computers in Education (January, 2009), and chair of the New Zealand Chapter of the ACM SIGCHI (January, 1999-December, 2004), and functioned in numerous other capacities.[59],[60],[61] What duties to the public came/come with these stations?

Once again, credit for all of this really goes to the people around me. It is simply a task too daunting for a person. I am fortunate to have the confidence and support of so many people, who trusted me with these activities. Indeed, these responsibilities have given me so many opportunities to learn. That is where I saw the origin of my duties. Being able to provide my efforts that make these activities useful and meaningful for others, so that these activities serve the purpose of wider community, is the aim I have always strived for. With those responsibilities given to me, I considered achieving the highest quality of the outcomes that serve the target audience as the topmost priority.

6. Your research interests lie in adaptive and personalized learning, smart learning environments, learning analytics, learning technologies mobile, ubiquitous and location aware learning systems, cognitive profiling, and interactive technologies.[62],[63],[64],[65] What motivates these research interests for you?[66],[67],[68],[69]

I have always been intrigued by use of technology to improve learning. During my PhD studies, I looked at creating intelligent tutoring tools that could help individual learners in learning subject concepts and practical associated skills. Soon after, I realized that the technology is to support learning process and the dimension of adaptive learning systems has significant potential. With wide availability of mobile devices, my research group started to explore how new avenues of learning can be tapped that could take learning outside of classroom. Still there were limitations, since mobile devices had limited functionality and limited availability of bandwidth. However, more recent advances in sensor technology, drop in the cost of mobile data, and wider availability of wireless connectivity now allows us to not only provide online support to the learners but also help them engage in authentic hands-on experience by interacting with physical objects. Better connectivity also means we have possibility for teachers to provide much-needed real-time interventions remotely. These opportunities have tremendous potential for improvement in education. This prospect has kept me motivated over the years.

7. You work as a professor in the school of computing and information systems at Athabasca University.[70],[71],[72],[73] What instigated this area of teaching?[74],[75],[76],[77]

My interest in improving learning is again the reason why I am in academia. I teach research methods course, where students learn how to do research, wo that they can go on a systematic path for innovation. While creativity plays a critical role in innovation, research methods allow students to ensure that they have explored various possible venues for the data, have identified what has been done previously so as not to reinvent the wheel, and to validate their findings properly, so that their results can be used by other with confidence.

8. You remain associate dean in the faculty of science and technology at Athabasca University.[78],[79],[80],[81] What power and responsibility comes with this station?[82],[83],[84],[85]

My portfolio as associate dean includes research leadership, overseeing graduate programs, and looking after course development and revision process for the faculty. Identifying networking opportunities for faculty, providing support as well as faculty level endorsement for individual faculty research applications is part of the research portfolio. Ascertaining demands for new programs, analyzing currency of existing programs and courses, and helping faculty to provide the best student experience to our graduate students is part of my graduate programs portfolio. Finally, overseeing the course development and revision process starting from an idea of a new course or revision of a course by a faculty member, to ensuring learning design support, editing, production and visual design, copyright processes, materials management, and other aspects, to ensure smooth operations at every stage, is part of my third portfolio.

9. You have association with the NSERC/CNRL/Xerox/McGraw Hill Industrial Research Chair in Adaptivity and Personalization in Informatics.[86],[87],[88],[89] What major developments have come from this Canada Research Chair position?

The extremely rapid growth of wireless and sensor technologies in recent years and the increasing availability of high bandwidth network infrastructures, have opened up new accessibility opportunities for education. In this context, the Chair research program has focused on understanding mobile and online learning environments that overcome the restrictions of classroom or workplace-restricted learning and extend e-learning by bringing the concepts of anytime and anywhere to reality, aiming at providing people with better educational experiences in their daily living environments. The primary goal of the research is to explore and develop different applications and content delivery systems, extending our understanding of mobile learning to provide rich learning experiences in order to not only improve the existing educational environment but also to widen access to education for the disadvantaged, particularly those living in remote and rural communities, who generally do not have access to learning opportunities, and to the disabled, who need specialized devices and applications for learning. Various investigations have taken place to exploit the benefits of location, environment, device and learner modeling, and combine them with mobile technology to achieve personalized delivery of multimedia-rich learning objects. The architecture designed in the research has resulted in a technical infrastructure that is built around a Personalized Adaptive Learning Dashboard (PALD) which provides students and teachers with access to various other components of the system through the student portal and instructor portal. Various software modules have been designed and developed to implement the architecture of multi-agent, multi-platform compatible and distribution systems.

10. What future research will occur 2015-2020 for this Canada Research Chair position?

The Chair research program is now in its second five-year term where the research is moving from mobile and online environments towards investigations of ubiquitous learning environments that have started to emerge with potential to support life-long learning and as a response to the limitations of traditional classroom-based learning that is characterized as not only rigid and artificial but also out-of-context, making it very restricted in fulfilling the demands of real-life experiences and authentic learning needs of today’s society.

The aim is to create an infrastructure that enables teachers and trainers to provide effective instruction and training in the environments where students/trainees undertake learning/training in authentic on-site situations outside of the classroom. This infrastructure will provide teachers and trainers with appropriate technologies to investigate and analyze students/trainees’ learning/training progress and intervene once difficulties in the learning/training process are identified.

Research in this phase will aim at mining relevant information about learners/trainees from various sources and aggregating that information for “ubiquitous learning analytics” in order to provide teachers and trainers with real-time recommendations to improve the learning/training flow of individual and group of learners/trainees.

11. What is the biggest personal dream for Athabasca University for you – its possibilities and promises in Canada?[90]

My biggest dream is to make learning process of Athabasca University students so personalized, meaningful and contextual that each student can relate what they are learning immediately to their work and living environment. The learning could happen in such a way that the distinction between learning and rest of the life is as little or as much as an individual student desires. While doing so, the evidence of learning remains so clear that for every achievement, it should be possible to clearly identify the knowledge and skills levels, and the evidence of that achievement, so that it can be used unequivocally by the student for any formal assessment or for any career opportunities.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Professor, School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University; Associate Dean, Faculty of Science and Technology, Athabasca University; NSERC Industrial Research Chair (Adaptvity and Personalization), School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University; Research Fellow (10/96 – 06/99), GMD – German National Research Center for Information Technology, Human Computer Interactions Institute, St. Augustin, Germany (Performance Award: August 1998); Senior Lecturer (06/99-07/01), Information System Department, Massey University, New Zealand; Associate Professor (08/01 – 08/06), Information System Department, Massey University, New Zealand; Director (07/03 – 08/06), Advanced Learning Technologies Research Centre, Massey University, New Zealand (Founding Director); Director (08/06 – 10/10), School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University, Canada; Professor (Since 08/06), School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University, Canada; NSERC Industrial Research Chair (Adaptivity & Personalization, Since 04/10), Athabasca University, Canada; Associate Dean (Research and Graduate Programs, Since 11/10), Faculty of Science and Technology, Athabasca University, Canada.

[2] Individual Publication Date: May 8, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com/prof-dr-kinshuk-professor-school-of-computing-and-information-systems-athabasca-university-associate-dean-faculty-of-science-and-technology-athabasca-university-nserc-industrial-research-chair-adaptiv; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2016 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Bachelor of Engineering (Mechanical) (Honors) (1987-1992), Rajasthan University; Master of Science Mechanical Computer Aided Eng. (1992-1993), Strathclyde University; Doctor of Philosophy (1993-1996), De Montfort University, (Thesis: Computer Aided Learning for Entry Level Accountancy Students).

[4] Photographs courtesy of Dr. Kinshuk.

[5] Kinshuk. (2015, July 29). Curriculum Vitae & Biography. Retrieved from http://kinshuk.athabascau.ca/index.php/all-2/.

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[14] LinkedIn. (2015). Dr Kinshuk. Retrieved from https://ca.linkedin.com/in/kinshuk1.

[15] Athabasca University. (2009, February 20). Building Tomorrow. Retrieved from http://alberta.ca/release.cfm?xID=2535194421966-F35C-2728-738763D8E6219A83.

[16] Well, M. (2015, September 11). Meeting the Minds: Interviewing Dr. Kinshuk, Part, III. Retrieved from http://www.voicemagazine.org/articles/featuredisplay.php?ART=10684.

[17] Well, M. (2015, September 11). Meeting the Minds: Interviewing Dr. Kinshuk, Part, II. Retrieved from http://www.voicemagazine.org/articles/featuredisplay.php?ART=10648.

[18] Well, M. (2015, September 11). Meeting the Minds: Dr. Kinshuk. Retrieved from http://www.voicemagazine.org/articles/featuredisplay.php?ART=10618.

[19] Learning Analytics and Knowledge. (2014, March). Conference Organizers, Chairs, and Program Committees. Retrieved from https://lak14indy.wordpress.com/chairs/.

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[24] Lyrex. (2015). Partners. Retrieved from https://lyryx.com/about-partners.html.

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[26] International Conference on Education. (2015). International Advisory Board. Retrieved from http://www.globalcenter.info/ic-ed/?page_id=5.

[27] Procomun. (2014). Mobile Authoring of Open Educational Resources as Reusable Learning Objects , Dr Kinshuk and Ryan Jesse Athabasca University, Canada. Retrieved from https://procomun.educalab.es/es/articulos/mobile-authoring-open-educational-resources-reusable-learning-objects-dr-kinshuk-and-ryan.

[28] KMEL-Journal. (2015). Dr. Kinshuk. Retrieved from http://www.kmel-journal.org/ojs/index.php/online-publication/about/editorialTeamBio/7.

[29] Mouallem, O. (2011). Learning inside a system that’s learning you. Retrieved from http://issuu.com/athabascauniv/docs/openspring2013_web/15.

[30] Athabasca University (2015). Experts Guide: Dr. Kinshuk. Retrieved from http://mediaspotme.com/athabasca/dr-kinshuk.

[31] International Mobile Learning Festival 2015. (2015). International Programme Committee. Retrieved from http://imlf.mobi/Brochure.pdf.

[32] TOJET. (2015). Board: Prof.Dr. Kinshuk – Athabasca University.

[33] Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada. (2015). Chairholder Profile. Retrieved from http://www.nserc-crsng.gc.ca/Chairholders-TitulairesDeChaire/Chairholder-Titulaire_eng.asp?pid=744.

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[41] Digital Life Environments 2015. (2015). Scientific Committee. Retrieved from http://dle2015.org/commitees/.

[42] Edutainment. (2011). World Summit Forum: e-Learning research Trends. Retrieved from http://ccc.k12.edu.tw/10014_10000123/public/web/edutainment2011/World%20Summit.html.

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[44] National Taipei University of Education Department of Education Science international exchange zone. (2009, April 17). International exchange activities Description. Retrieved from http://s8.ntue.edu.tw/international/index.html.

[45] ICCE 19th International Conference on Computers in Education. (2011). ICCE Conference on Technology, Pedagogy and Education. Retrieved from http://www.nectec.or.th/icce2011/callForPapers/cfp_c6.php.

[46] Vinaga Learning Solutions. (n.d.). Dr.Kinshuk. Retrieved from http://www.vinagalearningsolutions.com/advisory-board.html.

[47] International Association of Smart Learning Environments. (2015). Vice President(s): Kinshuk. Retrieved from http://www.iasle.net/index.php/about-us/executive.

[48] Twitter. (2015). @kinshuk1. Retrieved from https://twitter.com/kinshuk1.

[49] International Conference on New Frontiers in Engineering Education. (2015). Scientific Committee. Retrieved from http://www.icredu.org/infed16.

[50] IJDET. (2015). Editorial Board. Retrieved from http://www.ijdet.net/?pnum=7&pt=Editorial+Board.

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[52] International Workshop on Technology for Education. (2009, September 1). International Workshop on Technology for Education (T4E’09). Retrieved from http://digit.lk/international-workshop-on-technology-for-education-t4e09/.

[53] CHI UX Indonesia 2015. (2015). Program. Retrieved from http://chiuxindo.uxindo.com/chi-ux-indonesia-2015/.

[54] CAVA 2013. (2013). Dr. Kinshuk. Retrieved from http://www.aves.edu.co/cava/cava2010/htmldocs/conferencistas.html.

[55] ICEL 2014. (2014, June). Conference Programme of  the International Conference on eLearning ICEL 2014 Chile. Retrieved from http://academic-conferences.org/icel/icel2014/icel14-timetable.htm.

[56] Athabasca University. (2015). Athabasca University. Retrieved from http://www.athabascau.ca/.

[57] Alberta. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/place/Alberta-province.

[58] Canada. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/place/Canada.

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[60] Nickel, C. (2012, June 25). Xerox Canada and AU Work Together to Personalize Learning. Retrieved from https://www.raic.org/resources_archives/newsletters_bulletins/2012/july/documents/Insider%20June%2025,%202012.pdf.

[61] In About the author (2015), it, in full, states:

The author of this blog, Dr. Kinshuk is a leading expert in improving student learning through adaptivity and personalization of different learning activities, and through comprehensive analysis of the learning process using innovative technique known as Learning Analytics. He is Full Professor in the School of Computing and Information Systems and Associate Dean of the Faculty of Science and Technology, at Athabasca University, Canada. He holds the NSERC/CNRL/Xerox/McGraw Hill Industrial Research Chair for Adaptivity and Personalization in Informatics, funded by the Federal government of Canada, Provincial government of Alberta, and by national and international industries. Kinshuk also serves as the President of the Board of Directors for Smart Informatics Ltd, a recently evolved start-up with focus on improving student learning through innovative fusion of pedagogy and technology. After completing first degree from India, he earned his Masters’ degree from Strathclyde University (Glasgow) and PhD from De Montfort University (Leicester), United Kingdom. His work has been dedicated to advancing research on the innovative paradigms, architectures and implementations of online and distance learning systems for individualized and adaptive learning. He is particularly interested in advancing research in learning analytics; mobile, ubiquitous and location aware learning systems; cognitive profiling; and, authentic learning.

With more than 400 research publications in refereed journals, international refereed conferences and book chapters, he is frequently invited as keynote or principal speaker in international conferences and visiting professor around the world. He has been twice awarded the prestigious fellowship of Japan Society for the Promotion of Science (2008 and 2013). He has served as guest editor for numerous prestigious international journals, and continues to serve on a large number of editorial boards of high-impact journals and program committees of international conferences. He receives frequent invitations to serve on grant review panels for the governmental funding agencies of various countries, including the European Commission, Austria, Canada, Hong Kong, Israel, Italy, the Netherlands, Qatar, Taiwan and the United States. He also has a successful record of procuring external funding over 13 million Canadian dollars as principal and co-principal investigator.

In his on-going sustained professional activities, he has initiated several professional movements at international and national levels. At the international level, he is Founding Chair of IEEE Technical Committee on Learning Technologies, and Founding Editor of the Journal of Educational Technology & Society (SSCI indexed and in top three international journals as per Google matrices in educational technology category). At the national level, he is Founding Chair of the New Zealand Chapter of ACM SIG on Computer-Human Interaction, and Past President of the Distance Education Association of New Zealand.

Recently Dr Kinshuk has been instrumental in founding the International Association for Smart Learning Environments and Springer’s open access Smart Learning Environments journal. He has also initiated the new Springer book series Lecture Notes in Educational Technology, which aims at disseminating research advances in the form of books, proceedings and e-books.

Kinshuk. (2015). About the author. Retrieved from http://www.kinshuk.info/about-the-author/.

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[90] Athabasca University. (2015). Athabasca University. Retrieved from http://www.athabascau.ca/.

 

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Prof. Dr. Kinshuk: Professor, School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University; Associate Dean, Faculty of Science and Technology, Athabasca University; NSERC Industrial Research Chair (Adaptivity and Personalization), School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University (Part One) [Online].May 2016; 11(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/prof-dr-kinshuk-professor-school-of-computing-and-information-systems-athabasca-university-associate-dean-faculty-of-science-and-technology-athabasca-university-nserc-industrial-research-chair-adaptiv.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, May 8). Prof. Dr. Kinshuk: Professor, School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University; Associate Dean, Faculty of Science and Technology, Athabasca University; NSERC Industrial Research Chair (Adaptivity and Personalization), School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University (Part One). Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/prof-dr-kinshuk-professor-school-of-computing-and-information-systems-athabasca-university-associate-dean-faculty-of-science-and-technology-athabasca-university-nserc-industrial-research-chair-adaptiv.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Prof. Dr. Kinshuk: Professor, School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University; Associate Dean, Faculty of Science and Technology, Athabasca University; NSERC Industrial Research Chair (Adaptivity and Personalization), School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A, May. 2016. <www.in-sightjournal.com/prof-dr-kinshuk-professor-school-of-computing-and-information-systems-athabasca-university-associate-dean-faculty-of-science-and-technology-athabasca-university-nserc-industrial-research-chair-adaptiv>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “Prof. Dr. Kinshuk: Professor, School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University; Associate Dean, Faculty of Science and Technology, Athabasca University; NSERC Industrial Research Chair (Adaptivity and Personalization), School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/prof-dr-kinshuk-professor-school-of-computing-and-information-systems-athabasca-university-associate-dean-faculty-of-science-and-technology-athabasca-university-nserc-industrial-research-chair-adaptiv.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Prof. Dr. Kinshuk: Professor, School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University; Associate Dean, Faculty of Science and Technology, Athabasca University; NSERC Industrial Research Chair (Adaptivity and Personalization), School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A (May 2016). www.in-sightjournal.com/prof-dr-kinshuk-professor-school-of-computing-and-information-systems-athabasca-university-associate-dean-faculty-of-science-and-technology-athabasca-university-nserc-industrial-research-chair-adaptiv.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘Prof. Dr. Kinshuk: Professor, School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University; Associate Dean, Faculty of Science and Technology, Athabasca University; NSERC Industrial Research Chair (Adaptivity and Personalization), School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University (Part One)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/prof-dr-kinshuk-professor-school-of-computing-and-information-systems-athabasca-university-associate-dean-faculty-of-science-and-technology-athabasca-university-nserc-industrial-research-chair-adaptiv>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘Prof. Dr. Kinshuk: Professor, School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University; Associate Dean, Faculty of Science and Technology, Athabasca University; NSERC Industrial Research Chair (Adaptivity and Personalization), School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/prof-dr-kinshuk-professor-school-of-computing-and-information-systems-athabasca-university-associate-dean-faculty-of-science-and-technology-athabasca-university-nserc-industrial-research-chair-adaptiv.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Prof. Dr. Kinshuk: Professor, School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University; Associate Dean, Faculty of Science and Technology, Athabasca University; NSERC Industrial Research Chair (Adaptivity and Personalization), School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11.A (2016):May. 2016. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/prof-dr-kinshuk-professor-school-of-computing-and-information-systems-athabasca-university-associate-dean-faculty-of-science-and-technology-athabasca-university-nserc-industrial-research-chair-adaptiv>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Prof. Dr. Kinshuk: Professor, School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University; Associate Dean, Faculty of Science and Technology, Athabasca University; NSERC Industrial Research Chair (Adaptivity and Personalization), School of Computing and Information Systems, Athabasca University (Part One) [Internet]. (2016, May); 11(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/prof-dr-kinshuk-professor-school-of-computing-and-information-systems-athabasca-university-associate-dean-faculty-of-science-and-technology-athabasca-university-nserc-industrial-research-chair-adaptiv.

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Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

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© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2016. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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2016-05-01

An Interview with Distinguished Professor of Economics, History, English, and Communication at the University of Illinois at Chicago Deirdre Nansen McCloskey

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Numbering: Issue 11.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Six)

Individual Publication Date: May 1, 2016 (2016-05-01)

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2016 (2016-09-01)

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Web Domain: www.in-sightjournal.com

Words: 3,290

ISSN 2369-6885

CIMG4248.JPG

Abstract

An interview with Distinguished Professor of Economics, History, English, and Communication at the University of Illinois at Chicago Deirdre Nansen McCloskey. She discusses: geographic, cultural, and linguistic background, influences and pivotal moments in major cross-sections of early life; backgrounds, and influences and pivotal moments in development converging to determine the personal interest in economics, history, English, and communication; global economy probable future in the next 5, 10, 50, and 100 years; interrelationship of philosophies and positions, and the joke; motivation for perpetual output of productions; ethical responsibilities to the general public, academic world, the economics profession, and fellow Christian Libertarians comes with this extensive media, academic and general public, representation; and greatest emotional struggle in personal or (inclusive) professional life.

Keywords: Christian Libertarian, Deirdre McCloskey, Distinguished Professor, economics, English, global economy, history.

An Interview with Distinguished Professor of Economics, History, English, and Communication at the University of Illinois at Chicago Deirdre Nansen McCloskey[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. In terms of geography, culture, and language, where does your personal and familial background reside?

I was raised in Boston, eventually marrying someone from Vermont, and think I understand New England.  But both my parents were from the Midwest, and as a child I would stay summers with my grandmother and cousins in Michigan.  I have always worked in Chicago or Iowa, with occasional work in California.  So I understand the Midwest and New England, what Colin Woodward calls “Yankeedom.”  The rest of the country, excepting a glimmer about California, is more or less mysterious.  I am Anglophone—indeed monolingual, despite attempts throughout my life to erase the shame with Latin, Greek, French, Italian, German, Dutch, etc., etc.  My base culture is British—The World of Pooh and The Jungle Book when little.  My first scientific work was in British economic history (I take credit for bringing quantitative economic history to Britain from the US), and I have taught there, and in Australia and South Africa.  I am an anglophile of an extreme sort.  How extreme?  I love the game of cricket!

2. What about influences and pivotal moments in major cross-sections of early life including kindergarten, elementary school, junior high school, high school, and undergraduate studies (college/university)?

That’s a tall order.

I always stuttered, quite badly until I finally stopped being ashamed of it, late in college, and spoke up, whether or not stuttering.  I learned decades later that a British teacher of mine described me as “a stutter surrounded by a red beard.”  Oddly, the handicap was I think an advantage.   I therefore could never imagine myself to be perfect, and was always sympathetic to other humans in a way that a handicap teaches, if you do not dissolve into self-pity.

Age 11 I would fall asleep praying (our home was secular, but I was a bit holy for a while) that I would wake up (1.) not stuttering and (2.) be a girl.  At last at age 53 I got the second half, and by then the stutterer was a minor obstacle even to someone who earned her living talking.

My father was a professor at Harvard, my mother an opera singer when young (I am their oldest child of three, born when my mother was 20).  So the cultural atmosphere of the house was high, though oddly not pretentious: my dad liked baseball and played billiards and pool expertly; my mother remodeled the house on her own, and mowed the grass.  The opera director Sarah Caldwell took me to my first circus.  Famous academics drifted in and out of our house.

I went to a good, small, private school in Cambridge for boys (sic) in the eighth grade, which was crucial.  The Wakefield schools were not up to snuff.  A few teachers at Browne and Nichols encouraged me to think of myself as gifted in literature and in social thought.  I got into Harvard in my junior year of high school.

Harvard College was good for me—though not for all my classmates, I must say.  I intended to major in history, but found reading so many books onerous, and with my adolescent socialism found economics, and helping the poor.  I was a guitar-playing Joan Baez socialist, and to this day know vastly more labor songs than most of my left-wing friends.  Studying economics gradually killed my socialism, but not my goal of helping the poor.

3. How did these familial geographic, cultural, and linguistic backgrounds, and influences and pivotal moments in development converge to determine the personal interest in economics, history, English, and communication?

It was slow, and by no means settled when I got my first job, at the University of Chicago in 1968 (tenured in 1975).  I remember deciding at the tenure age of 33 that, having learned to be an economist, it was not enough.  I subscribed to The [London] Times Literary Supplement, which was for me a textbook into the humanities.  When I left Chicago in 1980 for the University of Iowa I started taking Latin courses and started the Project on Rhetoric of Inquiry, in which I worked with political philosophers, professors of English and of communication, teachers of rhetoric, and so forth.

4. You remain Distinguished Professor of Economics, History, English, and Communication at the University of Illinois at Chicago.[5] You teach a wide variety of courses in various fields centered on economics.[6] Furthermore, you have been a Guggenheim Fellow (1983), Phi Beta Kappa Visiting Lecturer (1993), and President of the Economic History Association (1996 to 1997). With this broad suite of expertise, and professional recognition, your analyses and opinion hold weight. In terms of the global economy, what seems like its most probable future – that is, the next 5, 10, 50, and 100 years?

Briefly, highly optimistic.  There is no reason at all why Zimbabwe, say, freed of Mugabe, can’t in a two or three generations have a real income equal to that of the USA.  It’s happened repeatedly.  In 1948 Hong Kong’s real income was down at the $2 a day characteristic of China generally.  Now it is $140 a day, above that the the USA.  Taiwan, the same story.  Botswana, next door to Zim, is the African success story.

5. At Harvard, you had description as “an anarchist, socialist, une­d­ucated Trot­skyite. I was Key­nesian economist, a social engineer.”[7] In the recent past, you self-described as a “Christian Libertarian,” “a literary, quantitative, postmodern, free-market, progressive-Episcopalian, Midwestern woman from Boston who was once a man,” and a “postmodern free-market quantitative Episcopalian feminist Aristotelian.”[8] What interrelates these philosophies and positions?[9]

Nothing interrelates them.  That is the serious joke in my self-descriptions.  Anyone who tries to keep philosophical consistency through her life is going be dominated necessarily by her immature plan for philosophy—whatever it was at age 14.  It’s like the many intelligent people who decide in their wisdom at age 14 to be courageous, independent-thinking atheists (following slavishly in this most of the intelligent children in their cohort), and then never pause at age 30 or 60 to reexamine the 14-year old’s life plan.  It’s childish—though unhappily it characterizes many otherwise intelligent people.  I knew slightly the British Marxist historian Eric Hobsbawm.  In his brilliant autobiography he gave reasons for remaining a Communist (after Stalin, after Hungary) until the British Party disbanded itself, in the early 1990s.  The reasons were surprisingly stupid in so intelligent a man.  He decided at age 14 to be a Communist, and so he remained until his death at age 95.  “A foolish consistency,” wrote Emerson, “is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.”  Use your mind to discern the truth, which will probably change from age 14 to age 95, unless you’ve shut down your mind in favor a Party Line.

6. You have extensive representation in the media.[10] You wrote many, many articles and books.[11],[12] Unfortunately, we don’t have time to conduct a comprehensive interview. Even so, as a general commentary on the continuous output of professional work and calls for interviews, what motivates this perpetual output of productions?

Discerning the truth.  I keep pursuing it.   Instead of grinding away at the same idea I had at age 14 or 24 or 34, as so many people do, I try to think.  Yes, I know, it’s irritating: Why doesn’t she settle?  Well, too bad.  Science is hard, and you need to keep thinking.  The thinking should regularly result in new ideas.  If not, maybe it’s not thinking.

7. What ethical responsibilities to the general public, academic world, the economics profession, and fellow Christian Libertarians comes with this extensive media, academic and general public, representation?

To tell the truth as I see it, having earnestly pursued it, by thinking and rethinking.  I would be deeply ashamed if the “media representation” you speak of arose from some Party Line I was adhering to.  I could have had a comfortable  career at the University of Chicago, for example, if I had not decided around 1978 that the naïve behaviorism and positivism of Chicago, and the melding of it with MIT-Stanford formalism of “proof,” was a silly form of not-thinking.  I left out of vexation.  The great poet and Latin textual critic, A. E. Housman, gave an address to the Classical Association meeting in 1921 at Cambridge called “The Application of Thought to Textual Criticism” in which he advised his colleagues to stop using mindless rules (“The more sincere text is the better”; an equivalent rule in economics would be “one must never ask people what they are doing” or “macro must always have micro foundations”) and to actually think about the Latin text at hand, and what the poet might have written.

8. What seems like the greatest emotional struggle in personal or (inclusive) professional life?

Well, obviously my gender change.  I was happily married to the love of my life for 30 years, and had two children I love and loved.  The three have not spoken to me for 20 years.  They will not let me see my three grandchildren.  If I had been required to give up my career to become a woman, I would have.  Fortunately, though, I didn’t, and aside from the three, I have continued to lead a charmed life.

Thank you for your time, Professor McCloskey.

Bibliography

  1. Finney, J. (2016, March 10). Q&A: Deirdre McCloskey. Retrieved from http://www.hillsdalecollegian.com/2016/03/qa-deirdre-mccloskey/.
  2. McCloskey, D. (2016). Deirdre McCloskey. Retrieved from http://deirdremccloskey.org/.
  3. University of Illinois at Chicago. (2016). Deirdre McCloskey. Retrieved from http://econ.uic.edu/economics/faculty/deirdre-mccloskey.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] UIC Distinguished Professor of Economics and of History Emerita, University of Illinois at Chicago; Professor of English Emerita, University of Illinois at Chicago; Professor of Communication Emerita, University of Illinois at Chicago.

University of Illinois at Chicago University of Illinois at Chicago

[2] Individual Publication Date: May 1, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-professor-of-economics-history-english-and-communication-at-the-university-of-illinois-at-chicago-deirdre-nansen-mccloskey; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2016 at https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Ph.D., Harvard University.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Distinguished Professor Deirdre McCloskey.

[5] University of Illinois at Chicago. (2016). Deirdre McCloskey. Retrieved from http://econ.uic.edu/economics/faculty/deirdre-mccloskey.

[6] McCloskey, D. (2016). Courses, Spring 2013. Retrieved from http://www.deirdremccloskey.com/courses.php.

[7] Finney, J. (2016, March 10). Q&A: Deirdre McCloskey. Retrieved from http://www.hillsdalecollegian.com/2016/03/qa-deirdre-mccloskey/.

[8] Formal Biography (2016) states:

Deirdre N. McCloskey has been since 2000 UIC Distinguished Professor of Economics, History, English, and Communication at the University of Illinois at Chicago. Trained at Harvard as an economist, she has written fifteen books and edited seven more, and has published some three hundred and sixty articles on economic theory, economic history, philosophy, rhetoric, feminism, ethics, and law. She taught for twelve years in Economics at the University of Chicago, and describes herself now as a “postmodern free-market quantitative Episcopalian feminist Aristotelian.” Her latest books are How to be Human* *Though an Economist (University of Michigan Press 2001),Measurement and Meaning in Economics (S. Ziliak, ed.; Edward Elgar 2001), The Secret Sins of Economics (Prickly Paradigm Pamphlets, U. of Chicago Press, 2002), The Cult of Statistical Significance: How the Standard Error Costs Us Jobs, Justice, and Lives[with Stephen Ziliak; University of Michigan Press, 2008], The Bourgeois Virtues: Ethics for an Age of Capitalism (U. of Chicago Press, 2006), and Bourgeois Dignity: Why Economics Can’t Explain the Modern World (U. of Chicago Press, 2010). Before The Bourgeois Virtues her best-known books were The Rhetoric of Economics (University of Wisconsin Press 1st ed. 1985; 2nd ed. 1998) and Crossing: A Memoir (Chicago 1999), which was a New York Times Notable Book.

Her scientific work has been on economic history, especially British. She is currently finishing a book, the third in a series of three initiated with The Bourgeois Virtues, on Dutch and British economic and social history, Bourgeois Equality: How Betterment Became Ethical, 1600-1848, and Then Suspect. She has written on British economic “failure” in the 19th century, trade and growth in the 19th century, open field agriculture in the middle ages, the Gold Standard, and the Industrial Revolution.

Her philosophical books include The Rhetoric of Economics (University of Wisconsin Press 1st ed. 1985; 2nd ed. 1998), If You’re So Smart: The Narrative of Economic Expertise (University of Chicago Press 1990), and Knowledge and Persuasion in Economics(Cambridge 1994). They concern the maladies of social scientific positivism, the epistemological limits of a future social science, and the promise of a rhetorically sophisticated philosophy of science. Recently she has turned to ethics and to a philosophical-historical apology for modern economies.

Informal Biographical Remarks

Deirdre Nansen McCloskey taught at the University of Illinois at Chicago from 2000 to 2015 in economics, history, English, and communication. A well-known economist and historian and rhetorician, she has written 17 books and around 400 scholarly pieces on topics ranging from technical economics and statistical theory to transgender advocacy and the ethics of the bourgeois virtues. She is known as a “conservative” economist, Chicago-School style (she taught in the Economics Department there from 1968 to 1980, and in History), but protests that “I’m a literary, quantitative, postmodern, free-market, progressive-Episcopalian, Midwestern woman from Boston who was once a man. Not ‘conservative’! I’m a Christian libertarian.” With Stephen Ziliak in 2008 she wrote The Cult of Statistical Significance, which shows that null hypothesis tests of “significance” are, in the absence of a substantive loss function, meaningless (in 2011 the book figured in a unanimous Supreme Court decision). Her latest book, out in January 2016 from the University of Chicago Press—Bourgeois Equality: How Ideas, Not Capital or Institutions, Enriched the World—argues for an “ideational” explanation for the Great Enrichment 1800 to the present. The accidents of Reformation and Revolt in northwestern Europe 1517–1789 led to a new liberty and dignity for commoners—ideas called “liberalism”—which led in turn to an explosion of trade-tested betterment, “having a go.” The earlier book in the trilogy, Bourgeois Dignity: Why Economics Can’t Explain the Modern World (2010) had shown that materialist explanations such as saving or exploitation, don’t have sufficient economic oomph or historical relevance. The first book in the Bourgeois Era trilogy, The Bourgeois Virtues: Ethics for an Age of Commerce (2006), had established that, contrary to the clamor of the clerisy left and right since 1848, the bourgeoisie is pretty good, and that trade-tested betterment is not the worst of ethical schools.

McCloskey, D. (2016, April 15). Formal Biography. Retrieved from http://deirdremccloskey.org/main/bio.php#300.

[9] Q&A: Deirdre McCloskey (2016) in the opening question and response stated:

You explicitly push back against people who describe you as “con­ser­vative,” and opt instead to define yourself as a “literary, quan­ti­tative, post­modern, free market, pro­gressive Epis­co­palian, Mid­western woman from Boston who was once a man.”

That’s absolutely right. I’m a Christian, but a free-market Epis­co­palian. I was a guy, now I’m a woman. I’m from Boston, but I’ve always lived as an adult in the Midwest. Being post­modern doesn’t mean you have to be left wing. Being post­modern is to say that I don’t believe in the naïve theory of knowledge that facts are just lying out there, we go collect them, and that’s it. We ask human questions. The Danish physicist Niels Bohr said that back in the 1920s. Physics is not just about the world, physics is what we as humans can say about the world. That is the essential message of the Sophists of ancient Greece, and of Mon­taigne and Shake­speare in the late six­teenth century, and of the ‘crazy,’ post­modern people in English departments. I’m quan­ti­tative: So many social and sci­entific questions depend on how big things are, numbers, quan­tities. Yet, I believe truth can be found in poetry, theology, phi­losophy, and history. It is truth that cannot be translated without loss into propo­si­tional statements, like E=mc2. But what is human life about? One kind of answer is there was once a babe born in Bethlehem of the house of David. This other kind of knowing is not propo­si­tional, but it’s very important to humans. It’s not softer than math. To talk about knowledge as ‘hard’ and ‘soft’ is sexist — it means girls can’t do math. A stupid dis­tinction. The Greek aorist mood is harder to understand than most calculus. Humanities is not easier than physical and bio­logical sciences.

Finney, J. (2016, March 10). Q&A: Deirdre McCloskey. Retrieved from http://www.hillsdalecollegian.com/2016/03/qa-deirdre-mccloskey/.

[10] McCloskey, D. (2016, April 17). Interviews. Retrieved from http://www.deirdremccloskey.com/interviews/index.php.

[11] McCloskey, D. (2016, April 17). Articles Published or in Press by Deirdre McCloskey. Retrieved from http://www.deirdremccloskey.com/articles/index.php.

[12] McCloskey, D. (2016, April 17). BOOKS WRITTEN and PUBLISHED. Retrieved from  http://www.deirdremccloskey.com/books/index.php.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Distinguished Professor of Economics, History, English, and Communication at the University of Illinois at Chicago Deirdre Nansen McCloskey. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal [Online].May 2016; 11(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-professor-of-economics-history-english-and-communication-at-the-university-of-illinois-at-chicago-deirdre-nansen-mccloskey.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, May 1). An Interview with Distinguished Professor of Economics, History, English, and Communication at the University of Illinois at Chicago Deirdre Nansen McCloskey. Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-professor-of-economics-history-english-and-communication-at-the-university-of-illinois-at-chicago-deirdre-nansen-mccloskey.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Distinguished Professor of Economics, History, English, and Communication at the University of Illinois at Chicago Deirdre Nansen McCloskey. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A, May. 2016. <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-professor-of-economics-history-english-and-communication-at-the-university-of-illinois-at-chicago-deirdre-nansen-mccloskey>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An Interview with Distinguished Professor of Economics, History, English, and Communication at the University of Illinois at Chicago Deirdre Nansen McCloskey.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-professor-of-economics-history-english-and-communication-at-the-university-of-illinois-at-chicago-deirdre-nansen-mccloskey.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Distinguished Professor of Economics, History, English, and Communication at the University of Illinois at Chicago Deirdre Nansen McCloskey.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 11.A (May 2016). www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-professor-of-economics-history-english-and-communication-at-the-university-of-illinois-at-chicago-deirdre-nansen-mccloskey.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Distinguished Professor of Economics, History, English, and Communication at the University of Illinois at Chicago Deirdre Nansen McCloskey’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-professor-of-economics-history-english-and-communication-at-the-university-of-illinois-at-chicago-deirdre-nansen-mccloskey>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Distinguished Professor of Economics, History, English, and Communication at the University of Illinois at Chicago Deirdre Nansen McCloskey‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-professor-of-economics-history-english-and-communication-at-the-university-of-illinois-at-chicago-deirdre-nansen-mccloskey.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Distinguished Professor of Economics, History, English, and Communication at the University of Illinois at Chicago Deirdre Nansen McCloskey.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11.A (2016):May. 2016. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-professor-of-economics-history-english-and-communication-at-the-university-of-illinois-at-chicago-deirdre-nansen-mccloskey>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Distinguished Professor of Economics, History, English, and Communication at the University of Illinois at Chicago Deirdre Nansen McCloskey [Internet]. (2016, May); 11(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-distinguished-professor-of-economics-history-english-and-communication-at-the-university-of-illinois-at-chicago-deirdre-nansen-mccloskey.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2016. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2016-04-22

An Interview with Farouk A. Peru

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Numbering: Issue 10.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Six)

Individual Publication Date: April 22, 2016 (2016-04-22)

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2016 (2016-05-01)

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Web Domain: www.in-sightjournal.com

Words: 4,083

ISSN 2369-6885

Farouk A. Peru

Abstract

An interview with Farouk A. Peru. He discusses: geographic, cultural, and linguistic background; source of personal interest in Islam; Quranology Blog; Islam’s entrance into personal life; Qur’an’s personal meaning; authenticity and veracity of the text; Prophet Muhammad and other prophets in Islam; Islam’s eschatology; Quranism definition of the soul; Quranism definition of the whole person; Quranism definition of relationship of humanity to Allah; Quranism statement about the sexes; Quranism definition of marriage; daily inspiration through the Qur’an; definition of Quranism; definition of Muslim; Quranism stance on evolution, creationism, and intelligent design; general Islamic stance on evolution, creationism, and intelligent design; possibility of understanding the world as Allah’s work; things Muslims and non-Muslims can do about those giving religion a bad name; reconciliation of human specialness in light of human beings as common productions of natural processes; ways the media can give accurate views of those within the faith community; forces influencing future directions of Islam; whether science denies Allah or not; other plausible interpretations of the scientific evidence; whether religion can survive without faith; whether religions survive increasingly persuasive scientific explanations for natural phenomena; repairing the schisms in Islam; whether they should be or not; and means for those with an interest in becoming involved with the Quranists Network or Islam.

Keywords: Islam, Muslim, Quranism, Quranists Network, religion, science.

An Interview with Farouk A. Peru[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

*Please see Appendix II: Qur’an Quotes on Male and Female Spiritual Equality*

 *Note from Mr. Peru: “www.quranists.net is about all quranists. It does not have any official views but rather would strive to host all views and debates. www.quranology.name is a space for my personal views and research. it’s quranist by definition but follows only one approach which is my own”*

1. In terms of geography, culture, and language, where does your family background reside?

I am from a Malay background. We are the majority ethnic group in Malaysia and my family specifically comes from Penang, an island state in northern Malaysia. We speak English as our first language but are also fluent in Malay.

2. Where does personal interest in Islam source itself?[5]

My grandfather and uncle who both had a keen interest in Islam. Both were into Islamic mysticism and I grew up reading books on the subject. I suppose my cultural origin as a Muslim gave me a means through which I sought my place in the world. I now see it as a vehicle towards the destination of self-actualization as a human being.

3. You run the Quranology Blog.[6] In a number of short posts – What is Quran? (2015), What is Quranology? (2015), Sections of Quranology (2015), and How I Arrived Here (2015), you provide the basis and reasons for the Qur’an, Quranology, and personal arrival into the work.[7],[8],[9],[10] What inspired its development into the present status as an online resource?

Since the late 90ies, I have ventured into creating websites and blogs in the past. However, during that time, my thoughts had not yet formed in the way it is now. What was missing back then was a strong theoretical foundation.

The essays you mentioned above represents a map through which a reader may start as a human being and venture forth into the world of Quran (mapped out in the ‘sections of Quranology’). It is important that he starts out from this existential position rather a religious one because, in my view, Quran is not a religious text but an existential one. It speaks to what I call ‘the facticity of existence’ which is the reality of our being as humans.

4. How did Islam come into your life?

My family are culturally and religiously Muslim so the natural familiarity helped form my identity as a Muslim. However I have a deeper involvement as I am involved socially and politically as well. However, I am now on the left side of the Islamic political spectrum. An Islamic liberal, if you will.

5. What does the Qur’an mean to you?[11]

The Quran to me is a text inspired by the divine force to the historical personality Muhammad son of Abdullah. In this text, we may find the essential truths of human being.

6. What argument and evidences attest to its authenticity and veracity to you?

I see the Quran as a legacy left by the historical Muhammad to his community. The community was encouraged to memorise the text as a cultural practice and in my observation, they have done so immaculately. The contents of the texts is also agreed upon by the Sunni and Shia factions of Islam which attests to its early date of codification. That is my understanding of authenticity.

On the question of veracity, the Quran promotes an experiment to verify that its statements about the human condition are, in fact, true (Chapter 41, Verse 53). I have and am still performing this experiment and am satisfied that the Quran is veracious in this regard.

7. What about Prophet Muhammad?[12]

Prophet Muhammad in my understanding was the historical personality who first received the Quran. He interpreted and applied it in his own personal subjectivities. I am not obligated to follow these interpretations and applications, even if I do agree about their authenticity.

8. Other Prophets exist in Islam: Adam, Noah,Abraham, Moses, Solomon, and Jesus.[13],[14],[15],[16],[17],[18] What status does Islam give them?

They are historical personalities, some of those histories are codified in the Quranic text. The purpose of their codification is to provide archetypes for humanity to evolve (as per Quran Ch 11 Vs 120 and Ch 12 Vs 111).

9. Eschatology relates to the “last things.”[19]  Judaism and Christianity assert and study them through the Torah, Old Testament, and New Testament. Muslims study the texts of the People of the Book in addition to the Qur’an and the Hadith. What is Islam’s eschatology?

As a point of interest, I do not accept the ‘people of the book’ to be Jews and Christians but rather people bound to a certain law or code. Neither do I accept the OT or NT as divinely inspired texts.

In my understanding of the Quran, the last day is when humanity is gathered and their deeds are weighed. Those who pass will go through to the next stage of infinite Being where they rejoin universal consciousness.

10. How does Quranism define the soul?

I can only speak for my organization (Quranology Institute) and not for other Quranists. To me, the soul is the human personality which is our vehicle in this world. Like any vehicle, it needs to be upkept and even improved upon and ultimately after death, it will take us on the journey of reunion with the Divine.

11. How does Quranism define the whole person?

I can only speak for my organization (Quranology Institute) and not for other Quranists. The whole person, in my understanding of the Quran, is the soul (nafs), heart (qalb) and sadr (projection). The heart acts as a compass, the soul as a vehicle. This leads to our projected selves into the world which expands and brings peace (salam).

12. How does Quranism define the relationship of humanity to Allah?

I can only speak for my organization (Quranology Institute) and not for other Quranists. Our fundamental relationship is that of servitude (a matter of choice). When we serve Allah, we imbue ourselves with his baptism (the realization of His attributes). We then actualize these attributes in the world.

13. Numerous quotations in the Qur’an delineate the equality of the sexes.[20]  What does Quranism state about the sexes?

I can only speak for my organization (Quranology Institute) and not for other Quranists. In my understanding, there is no delineation in social roles with the exception of family law and reproduction where the woman who nurses her child needs to be cared for.

14. How does Quranism define marriage?

I can only speak for my organization (Quranology Institute) and not for other Quranists. In my understanding, a marriage is a social contract which recognizes the romantic/sexual relationship between two individuals. This contract must define the terms of their lives together.

15. What inspiration comes from daily life through the Qu’ran for you?

In my daily life, I work with the underprivileged from time to time and when I do so, verses of the Quran which relate to this issue resonate with me deeply. The Quran gives a special position to charity work, placing it right next to worship in no less than four places (2/83, 4/36, 6/151 and 17/23).

16. The Quranists Network’s vision states with clarity its purpose to express the “vision of islam itself.”[21]  In the Introduction (2015) to the Quranists Network, the collective describes Quranism as “a major stream in Islam along with Sunnism and Shiaism.”[22] In Quranists and the term ‘Quranists’ (2015), you clarify the definition further.[23] In that, you note Quranism does not equate to another sect of Islam and the necessity of shirking hawa or delusions to become monotheists. In that, one does not develop into a monotheist by dint of accepting the Qu’ran or becoming Muslim. What defines Quranism to you?

Quranism should be seen as a space wherein there are unending discussions about the Quran. Any person can enter this space and can take whatever he or she wishes from it. Quranism must never force dogma upon anyone. The idea is to fertilise thinking and benefit from reading and applying the text.

17. What defines a Muslim to you?

I define a muslim in two ways. One, a Muslim (with a capital ‘M’) part of the world of Islam, which is a religious culture known to the world as Islam. A Muslim in this sense is affliated by birth or conversion to that culture and practices Islam to varying levels.

Another way I see ‘muslim’ (with a small ‘m’) is in the existential sense (which I gather from the Quran). A muslim is one who promotes wholeness and soundness of self and society. He does not have to be religious or even a theist. This definition of muslim is ironically found more in the Western world than the Muslim one.

18. Some religions, or sects within the, reject evolution and accept creationism, or an adapted from entitled intelligent design. Where does the Quranist movement stand with respect to evolution, creationism, and intelligent design?

As a matter of fact, Quranists seem to be pro-evolution and intelligent design. I have hardly seen Quranists who are also creationists. This is probably due to the fact that the Quran does not incline to the literal interpretation of adam. In my reading, it sees adam as a human prototype (as per 7/11)

19. What about the general Islamic world – believers, Islamic states, Arab League, and so on?

The Islamic world tends to be creationists and also very hostile to Traditional Muslims who say otherwise. A friend of mine, one Usama Hassan, received a huge backlash for stating his pro-evolution views.

20. The future of faith and religion as humans become more powerful at controlling and explaining the world. Is trying to understand the world doing Allah’s work?

I believe it is. I believe that the world is a manifestation of our collective souls and in the evolution of souls, we may bring peace to the world. That is Allah’s work. Religion cannot or at least should not be dissociated from our human experience.

21. What can Muslims and non-Muslims about those giving religion a bad name?

I believe that all of humanity needs to bring about a state wherein people can self-actualize. This can be done through overcoming stagnation which happens through poverty. This program would lead to closer human relations and those who give religion a bad name would have the rug pulled from under them

22. How does one present faith in human beings as special in light of scientific knowledge presenting human beings as common productions of natural processes – cosmic, geologic, evolutionary, socio-cultural, and so on?

Faith is an internal experience which should bring about a feeling of peace and security. Scientific knowledge is an external experience. I do not feel that one can do without the other but neither does one compromise the other.

23. With disproportionate time apportioned to the extremists within religion, how can the media present an accurate view of those within the faith community?

If the media were inclined to do so (which I do not think the mainstream media are), they should focus on the social activism of Muslims. There are Muslim organizations which are passionate about battling poverty and they should receive media focus.

24. What forces might push Islam in different directions in the future?

The force of Islamic Reform, I believe, can return Islam to its original trajectory, to become a living tradition which feeds into human evolution. However, Islamic Reform is not an idea which is very proliferant in the Muslim just yet.

25. Does science deny Allah?

Science can neither confirm or deny anything. Like a computer, science can process hypotheses and produce a deduction. The set up of the system is dependent upon the person and hence is subjective. Therefore science can justify both theism and atheism.

26. What other plausible interpretations of the scientific evidence exist to you?

I believe scientific evidence shows that there is a force which pushes the universe to more complex levels of consciousness as opposed to entropy which seems to permeate the universe. This is what the Quran calls ‘rabubiyah’ (lordship) and should be accessed by humanity.

27. Can religion survive without faith?

If by ‘faith’, you mean ‘blind faith’, then I believe it is only way religion can survive – without blind faith. Rather, religion must use reason in order to verify its own internal experience.

28. Can religion survive increasingly persuasive scientific explanations for natural phenomena?

Science can only explain the physical properties of natural phenomena. The metaphysics which underpin reality is something science cannot talk about by definition. This is where our internal faculties are needed. Religion provides vehicles for this internal journey.

29. Can the schisms within Islam be repaired?

I am not optimistic because the rift has widened into a chasm. The identities of the Sunni and Shia sects have become cultures in their own right. While the hostilities can be repaired, I do not think the schisms can.

30. Should they be?

Not necessarily because any sect can be employed to provide a means for spiritual betterment.

31. For those with an interest in subscribing, resources exist such as announcements, bookshop, events, Kindle Books, mp3 audio files, news, QNetTV, Quranists Network Forum, and the subscriber list.[24],[25],[26],[27],[28],[29],[30],[31],[32] What other means exist for those with an interest in becoming involved in the Quranists Network or Islam?

They should join our facebook groups – Quranists Reverts, Quranists.net and Quranist Space.

Thank you for your time, Mr. Peru.

Bibliography

  1. Abraham. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Abraham.
  2. Adam and Eve. (2015). InEncyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Adam-and-Eve-biblical-literary-figures.
  3. Islam. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/Islam.
  4. Jesus Christ. (2015). InEncyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Jesus-Christ.
  5. Moses. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Moses-Hebrew-prophet.
  6. Muhammad. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Muhammad.
  7. Noah. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/Noah.
  8. Peru, F.A. (n.d.). Quranists and the term ‘Quranists’. Retrieved from http://www.quranists.net/2011/04/13/quranists-and-the-term-quranists/.
  9. Peru, F.A. (2015). Quranology Blog. Retrieved from https://quranology.wordpress.com/author/faroukaperu/.
  10. Peru, F.A. (2015). Sections of Quranology. Retrieved from https://quranology.wordpress.com/introduction/an-explanation-of-the-sections-of-quranology/.
  11. Peru, F.A. (2015). What is Quran?. Retrieved from https://quranology.wordpress.com/introduction/what-is-quran/.
  12. Peru, F.A. (2015). What is Quranology?. Retrieved from https://quranology.wordpress.com/introduction/what-is-quranology/.
  13. Qur’an. (2015). InEncyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/Quran.
  14. Quranists Network. (2015). Quranists Network. Retrieved from http://www.quranists.net/.
  15. Solomon. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Solomon.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Founder, Quranology Blog; Administrator, Quranist Network.

[2] Individual Publication Date: April 22, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-farouk-a-peru; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues.

[3] Ph.D. Candidate, King’s College, London.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Farouk A. Peru.

[5] Islam. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/Islam.

[6] Peru, F.A. (2015). Quranology Blog. Retrieved from https://quranology.wordpress.com/author/faroukaperu/.

[7] Peru, F.A. (2015). What is Quran?. Retrieved from https://quranology.wordpress.com/introduction/what-is-quran/.

[8] Peru, F.A. (2015). What is Quranology?. Retrieved from https://quranology.wordpress.com/introduction/what-is-quranology/.

[9] Peru, F.A. (2015). Sections of Quranology. Retrieved from https://quranology.wordpress.com/introduction/an-explanation-of-the-sections-of-quranology/.

[10] Peru, F.A. (2015). How I arrived Here. Retrieved from https://quranology.wordpress.com/introduction/this-blog/.

[11] Qur’an. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/Quran.

[12] Muhammad. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Muhammad.

[13] Adam and Eve. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Adam-and-Eve-biblical-literary-figures.

[14] Noah. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/Noah.

[15] Abraham. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Abraham.

[16] Moses. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Moses-Hebrew-prophet.

[17] Solomon. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Solomon.

[18] Jesus Christ. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/biography/Jesus-Christ.

[19] In eschatology (2015):

…the doctrine of the last things. It was originally a Western term, referring to Jewish, Christian, and Muslim beliefs about the end of history, the resurrection of the dead, the Last Judgment, the messianic era, and the problem of theodicy (the vindication of God’s justice). Historians of religion have applied the term to similar themes and concepts in the religions of nonliterate peoples, ancient Mediterranean and Middle Eastern cultures, and Eastern civilizations. Eschatological archetypes also can be found in various secular liberation movements.

eschatology. (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/topic/eschatology.

[20] Appendix I: Qur’an Quotes on the Spiritual Equality of the Sexes.

[21] Vision (2015) states:

The primary vision of Quranism is none other than the vision of islam itself. The meaning of ‘islam’ when articulated by the Quran is ‘attaining peace’ and ‘peace’ here is holistic, that is to say peace in all aspects of our lives. If we think about it, all human beings seek a state of peace. We are the same in that respect and only different in how we go about seeking that peace.

What makes Quranism distinct from the other ideologies is that it seeks to extract from the Quran a philosophy which will bring the above effect. It is different from other forms of Islam in the sense that it tries to make the Quran the sole source of that philosophy whereas the others acknowledge other sources as divine sources.

Quranists seek to bring into the world a state of peace. We would like to see justice and equality in the world and an end to corruption, exploitation and oppression. We hope to do this by articulating and disseminating our understandings of the Quran so that anyone may practise those principles in however manner they choose.  We hope to help humanity discover the earthly garden.

Our secondary vision is to have Quranism recognised as a legitimate form of Islam. At present, Quranism is seen as either heretical or worse still, totally irrelevant to Islamic discourse. Quranists, we believe, have a legitimate claim to be recognised as a form of Islam. We will therefore promote Quranist Islam through our activities.

Quranists Network. (2015). Quranists Network: Vision. Retrieved from Quranists Network. (2015). Quranists Network. Retrieved from http://www.quranists.net/.

[22] Introduction (2015) states:

Quranism is a major stream in Islam along with Sunnism and Shiaism. Quranism approaches Islam in a unique way compared to the others in that it rejects or at least questions the role of Islamic Traditions. In doing so, Quranists have had to engage with the Quran through fresh eyes and have become a type of Islam which is unusual to most people. However, in recent years with the popularisation of the internet, Quranism has become very high-profile. This website hopes to promote Quranism as a form of Islam.

The Quranists Network is an associationof individuals and institutions who promote Quranism. It is not the owner of the term of Quranists or Quranism.  Quranism and Quranists is a public term.

Quranists Network. (2015). Quranists Network: Introduction. Retrieved from http://www.quranists.net/sample-page/introduction/.

[23] Peru, F.A. (n.d.). Quranists and the term ‘Quranists’. Retrieved from http://www.quranists.net/2011/04/13/quranists-and-the-term-quranists/.

[24] Quranists Network. (2015). Quranists Network: Announcements. Retrieved from http://www.quranists.net/category/announcements/.

[25] Quranists Network. (2015). Quranists Network: Bookshop. Retrieved from http://www.quranists.net/bookshop/.

[26] Quranists Network. (2015). Quranists Network: Events. Retrieved from http://www.quranists.net/category/events/.

[27] Quranists Network. (2015). Quranists Network: Kindle Books. Retrieved from http://www.quranists.net/books/.

[28] Quranists Network. (2015). Quranists Network: mp3. Retrieved from http://www.quranists.net/mp3/.

[29] Quranists Network. (2015). Quranists Network. News. Retrieved from http://www.quranists.net/news/.

[30] Quranists Network. (2015). Quranists Network: QNetTV. Retrieved from http://www.quranists.net/qnettv/.

[31] Quranists Network. (2015). Quranists Network: Quranists Network Forum. Retrieved from http://www.quranists.net/forum/.

[32] Quranists Network. (2015). Quranists Network: Subscribe. Retrieved from http://www.quranists.net/subscribe/.

Appendix II: Qur’an Quotes on Male and Female Spiritual Equality

  1. (Qurʾan 16:97) Anyone who works righteousness, male or female, while believing, we will surely grant them a happy life in this world, and we will surely pay them their full recompense (on the Day of Judgment) for their righteous works.”
  2. (Qurʾan 4:124) As for those who lead a righteous life, male or female, while believing, they enter Paradise; without the slightest injustice.”
  3. (Qurʾan 33:35) The submitting men, the submitting women, the believing men, the believing women, the obedient men, the obedient women, the truthful men, the truthful women, the steadfast men, the steadfast women, the reverent men, the reverent women, thecharitable men, the charitable women, the fasting men, the fasting women, the chaste men, the chaste women, and the men who commemorate GOD frequently, and the commemorating women; GOD has prepared for them forgiveness and a great recompense.
  4. (Qurʾan 40:40) Whoever commits a sin is requited for just that, and whoever works righteousness – male or female – while believing, these will enter Paradise wherein they receive provisions without any limits.
  5. (Qurʾan 4:124) As for those who lead a righteous life, male or female, while believing, they enter Paradise; without the slightest injustice.”
  6. (Qurʾan 49:13) O people, we created you from the same male and female, and rendered you distinct peoples and tribes, that you may recognize one another. The best among you in the sight of GOD is the most righteous. GOD is Omniscient, Cognizant.”
  7. (Qurʾan 3:195) “Their Lord responded to them: “I never fail to reward any worker among you for any work you do, be you male or female – you are equal to one another. Thus, those who immigrate, and get evicted from their homes, and are persecuted because of Me, and fight and get killed, I will surely remit their sins and admit them into gardens with flowing streams.” Such is the reward from GOD. GOD possesses the ultimate reward.”
  8. (Qurʾan 3:195) “I shall not lose sight of the labor of any of you who labors in My way, be it man or woman; you proceed one from another…”
  9. (Qurʾan 4:124) “If any do deeds of righteousness,- be they male or female – and have faith, they will enter Heaven, and not the least injustice will be done to them.”
  10. (Qurʾan 16:97) “Whoever works righteousness, man or woman, and has Faith, verily, to him will We give a new Life, a life that is good and pure, and We will bestow on such their reward according to the best of their actions.” (Quran 16:97)
  11. (Qurʾan 49:13) “O mankind!  We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another.  Verily, the most honorable of you with God is the most pious.  Verily, God is All-Knowing, All-Aware.”
  12. (Qurʾan  2:228) “. . . Wives have the same rights as the husbands have on them in accordance with the generally known principles.”

Appendix III: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Farouk A. Peru. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal [Online].April 2016; 10(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-farouk-a-peru.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, April 22). An Interview with Farouk A. Peru. Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-farouk-a-peru.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Farouk A. Peru. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A, April. 2016. <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-farouk-a-peru>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An Interview with Farouk A. Peru.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-farouk-a-peru.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Farouk A. Peru.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A (April 2016). www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-farouk-a-peru.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Farouk A. Peru’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 10.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-farouk-a-peru>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Farouk A. Peru‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 10.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-farouk-a-peru.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Farouk A. Peru.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 10.A (2016):April. 2016. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-farouk-a-peru>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Farouk A. Peru [Internet]. (2016, April); 10(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-farouk-a-peru.

License and Copyright

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In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2016. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2016-04-15

An Interview with Associate Professor Pei Wang (Part Two)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Numbering: Issue 10.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Six)

Individual Publication Date: April 15, 2016 (2016-04-15)

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2016 (2016-05-01)

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Web Domain: www.in-sightjournal.com

Words: 3,379

ISSN 2369-6885

Associate Professor Pei Wang 1.png

Abstract

An Interview with Associate Professor Pei Wang. He discusses: resources from the department and position; self-summarization and its relationship to A.I.; mainstream opinion on A.I.; ultimate goal; membership in professional organizations; Non-Axiomatic Reasoning System (NARS) and its contribution to computer science; Three fundamental misconceptions of Artificial Intelligence (2007); probability of the Singularity; immortality; good and bad news for thinking beings with A.I.; powerful A.I. reflecting on human thought; social and legal structure changes with A.I.; humans replaced or combined with A.I.; remnants of humanity with long-term A.I.; other civilizations in the galaxy; constructs of these other civilizations; ‘wants’ of A.I.s; weirdest aspect of living with A.I.; things that might not become weird; possible fragmentation caused by A.I.; percent chance on an A.I. takeover; future political controversies over A.I.; personal heroes; collaborative projects; and solo projects.

Keywords: A.I., Non-Axiomatic Reasoning System, Pei Wang, Singularity.

An Interview with Associate Professor Pei Wang (Part Two)[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Please see the footnotes throughout the interview, and bibliography and citation style listing after the interview.*

31. Now, you hold an associate professorship (2008-Present) at Temple University in the department of computer and information sciences.[5] What resources does this department and position provide for research into cognitive science and computer science?

I joined this department in 2001 after Webmind bankrupted, mostly because my home was at Philadelphia, so a local job made things easier. In these years my title changed a few times, though the position has been non-tenure track and teaching-oriented. Officially my current full title is “Associate Professor (Teaching/Instructional)”, which means my duty is full-time teaching, and there is little resource provided to my research, though in these years the department has been supportive to my research

32. You self-summarize, as follows:

My research goal is to build a thinking machine (also known as “artificial general intelligence” or “human-level artificial intelligence”). The approach I take is to design and implement a reasoning system, which unifies various cognitive facilities, such as reasoning, learning, categorizing, planning, problem-solving, decision-making, etc. The current achievements of this project can be found at http://nars.wang.googlepages.com/

Specialties: Artificial Intelligence and Cognitive Science in general, and especially on
* foundation of intelligence,
* reasoning under uncertainty,
* learning and adaptation,
* knowledge representation,
* decision making under time pressure.[6]

A.I. research studies the ability of a digital computer to perform tasks associated with intelligent beings. Cognitive science studies the mind and its processes. How does A.I. and cognitive science research relate to “foundation of intelligence,” “reasoning under uncertainty,” “learning and adaptation,” “knowledge representation,” and “decision making under time pressure”?

Though it is intuitive to identify “intelligence” as the ability to solve certain problems, in my opinion such an understanding fails to reveal the fundamental difference between the human mind and the conventional computer systems.

One consequence of this understanding of intelligence is that it suggests a “divide-and-conquer” strategy in A.I. research, which is responsible for the fragmentation of the field. For instance, “reasoning”, “learning”, “planning”, “decision making”, “natural language understanding”, and so on, have been traditionally treated as separated tasks to be performed using different theories and techniques, while in the human mind they may actually be different aspects of the same underlying process.

Another consequence is that “the problems solved by intelligent beings” is too broad and vague a notion. For instance, before computer was invented, only the human mind could carry out arithmetic operations on arbitrary numbers. If this task were also associated with intelligence, then a pocket calculator would be considered as an intelligent system. Since all these tasks are carried out by very different methods, it is difficult to find a common theoretical foundation on how intelligence works.

To resolve these issues, I define “intelligence” as “the ability of adaptation under insufficient knowledge and resources”, which is an attempt to provide a unified foundation for A.I., as well as to interpret various cognitive processes, such as reasoning, learning, decision making, etc., in a consistent manner.

Since the aim of my theory is not only to guide the development of A.I., but also to explain how human thinking works, it is a theory of cognitive science, too. However, since currently this field is dominated by cognitive psychology, where the focus are humans, not machines, my work is also out of the mainstream, since my model does not intend to describe the human mind in details, but to capture its basic principles. I do not think an A.I. will be identical to the human mind in all details.

33. What characterizes the “mainstream” opinion in A.I.?

To me, the mainstream A.I. is characterized by two opinions:

  • “Intelligence” is the ability to solve certain problems that are solvable by the human mind.
  • The problems associated with intelligence can be solved in the same way as how computers are traditionally used in problem solving.

34. What remains the ultimate goal with these convergent, and unified, interests in research?

The objective of my research is to get three results altogether: (1) a theory of intelligence, cognition, and mind (which are more or less the same thing in this context) in general, in the sense that it is not only applicable to humans, (2) a formal model of the theory, with all the details accurately specified, and (3) a computer implementation of the model, as a general-purpose thinking machine that is comparable to, though not identical with, the human mind in all major aspects.

35. You remain a member in the Artificial General Intelligence Society, Association for the Advancement of Artificial Intelligence, and Cognitive Science Society.[7] What does membership in these organizations – society and association, respectively – provide for you?

I was one of the founders of the field of Artificial General Intelligence (AGI), and it is the community I am mostly associated with. At the same time, I am still related to the mainstream A.I. community (represented by the Association for the Advancement of Artificial Intelligence) and the cognitive science community (represented by the Cognitive Science Society), mainly to keep track of their progress and trends.

36. You have involvement in the Non-Axiomatic Reasoning System (NARS) or the “general-purpose reasoning system.”[8] You have described the ability of NARS to learn from experience based on insufficiency in both resources and knowledge.[9] Its purpose is to reproduce cognitive faculties too. All research intersects on “a theory of intelligence,a formal model of the theory, and a computer implementation of the model.”[10] How does NARS contribute to the discipline of computer science and some researchers’ dreams of the development and foundation of artificial general intelligence?

NARS aims to become the “logic core” of intelligent systems that must handle questions and goals that are beyond their current capability in terms of knowledge and time-space resources. It will directly contribute to artificial intelligence and cognitive science, while also have impact on computer science and many other disciplines.

37. Three fundamental misconceptions of Artificial Intelligence (2007) described the nature of artificial intelligence in prominent conceptualizations, which remain wrong, and provides the correctives to these mis-conceptions.[11] These mis-conceptions relate to an A.I. identification with “an axiomatic system, a Turing machine, or a system with a model-theoretic semantics.”[12]

Even though, as the paper notes, the functional utility in these three core notions for A.I. systems, these three attract legitimate criticisms from individuals external to the discipline of artificial intelligence research and create problems for the field itself. In addition to these points of critique and response, the paper introduces a hypothetical, and example, intelligent system entitled NARS. NARS does not use any of the three previous core notions in the discipline of artificial intelligence research. Nonetheless, it provides the theoretical bases for its implementation – in spite of this common triplet rejection – in a standard digital computer, an “ordinary computer.”[13]

38. All of these conceptualizations, wrong ones by the paper’s analysis, derives from the treatment of empirical reasoning as mathematical reasoning in numerous instances. Nonetheless, what solutions does NARS bring to bear on the problem of the construction of a digital architecture capable of artificially and generally intelligent operations?

The solution proposed in NARS consists of several levels.

At the conceptual and philosophical level, it is the idea that A.I. is not computer science extended, but a separate discipline with its own fundamental assumptions. Roughly speaking, computer science is about how to solve problems with sufficient knowledge and resources, that is, it is the designer of the system who solves the problems, and the computer simply repeats the solution on each instance of the problem; artificial intelligence, on the contrary, should be about how to solve problems with insufficient knowledge and resources, that is, the system is not given all the relevant knowledge for the problems, and nor can the system afford the processing time and memory space to exhaustively try every possible solution, but has to learn to solve the problems on its own.

At the technical level, I formulated a new logic, called “Non-Axiomatic Logic”, to accurately specify the working process of a system that has to work with insufficient knowledge and resources. Concretely speaking, it answers questions like “If there is no way to get an answer that is absolutely correct, which answer is the best?” and “If it is impossible to consider all relevant knowledge when solving a problem, which knowledge should be considered?”, and so on.

39. What seems like the probability of the Singularity?

If “singularity” indicates a time after that A.I. becomes completely incomprehensible, I do not think it will ever happen at all. I believe A.I. can be built to follow the same principles and mechanisms as human intelligence, and it will show all kinds of cognitive functions and capabilities. In applications, A.I. will do many things better than us. However, this can be achieved exactly because we understand how “intelligence” and “cognition” work, so A.I. will be comprehensible in principle, even though we probably will not be able to exactly predict or explain the details in the behavior of an A.I. Actually we often cannot do that already for an ordinary (unintelligence) computer.

Unlike Ray Kurzweil and many other people, I do not see A.I. systems as conventional computer systems with stronger and stronger problem-solving power. Instead, I see it as a different type of computer systems, whose problem-solving power will indeed increase unbounded, but its governing principles (which is where “intelligence” is) remains more or less the same. In the current discussion about A.I., one fundamental confusion is between these two levels of capability. For example, are the present-time scholars “more intelligent” than those lived in the ancient Greek, like Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle? We surely have much higher problem-solving ability, but to me, our “intelligence” is more or less the same as them, which is not about “what one can do”, but “what one can learn”. In this way, future A.I. may be like human beings of future generations – more capable, but remains comprehensible to us, at least in principle.

40. Does immortality as argued by Dr. Ray Kurzweil seem reasonable – even with an extended timeline – to you?

No. I have not seen a convincing argument on this topic yet.

41. As we figure out A.I., what good and bad news will it have for us as thinking beings?

Like any major technical breakthrough in history, A.I. will be both an opportunity and a challenge at the same time. For pure intellectual considerations, the good news will be that we have reached a major milestone in the understanding of how “thinking” works, while the bad news is that we will lose our monopoly on this ability, and have to deal with the undesired consequences.

42. Will powerful A.I. show us that human thinking is sloppy and threadbare?

Probably not, since many negative aspects of human thinking are inevitable in all intelligent systems, so we will see them in A.I., too. For example, “forgetting” is often taken as a defect of the human mind, but according to my theory, it is a phenomenon that is certain to occur in an adaptive system working with insufficient knowledge and resources. A.I. will make all kinds of human-like errors.

43. How will social and legal structures change to accommodate non-human beings that are as smart as or smarter than humans?

We will not know for sure until we are close to our objective in this research, so now is too early to speculate the details, except that such changes will surely become necessary.

44. Will humans be replaced by or combine with A.I.?

I do not believe humans will be replaced by A.I. At least I have not seen any argument for that possibility that is not based on a misconception of A.I. It is certainly possible to “combine” human and A.I. in various ways. It is just like some people already cannot live without their cellphones.

45. What remnants will exist of humanity in the long-term if A.I. pans out?

Since human beings will continue to exist after A.I. has been achieved, there is no “remnants” to talk about.

46. Do you think there are other civilizations in our galaxy?

I think that is a valid possibility.

47. What constructs might these civilizations produce for themselves?

I have no idea.

48. What will A.I.s ‘want’ in the future?

I discussed this topic in my AGI-12 paper (Motivation Management in AGI Systems) in detail.[14] Roughly speaking, an A.I.’s initial goals or motivations are specified by humans (designers or users), then some derived goals are generated from them and the system’s knowledge, which wholly or partly comes from the system’s experience. Therefore, what an A.I. wants will be determined both by its nature and its nurture, but not by either of the two alone. Furthermore, in deciding what action to take, the system will usually consider all active goals, rather than any single one of them, even the initial one.

A common misconception about the motivation/goal of A.I. is to assume that the system’s actions will all be fully decided by a single initial goal, as exemplified by Bostrom’s “paperclip maximizer”. A truly intelligent system will not do that.

49. What will be the weirdest aspect of living with A.I.?

I do not know that yet.

50. What things might not become weird?

Most of them.

51. Will A.I. put pressure on society to fragment into those collectives which embrace A.I. and avoid A.I.?

That may happen, if the situation is not properly handled by politicians and scientists, though I do not see it as an inevitable scenario.

52. What percent would you assign to the risk of an A.I. takeover?

It depends on the definition of “A.I. takeover”. I do not believe it is possible for A.I. to completely take over the world, though it will surely take over certain aspects of our life, such as a large part of traffic control.

53. Will future political controversies over A.I. become as heated as the current enflamed political scene in The United States of America?

I hope not, and will try to avoid that scenario, though cannot guarantee that it cannot happen.

54. When will we elect the first A.I.-augmented politician?

Again, it depends on how “A.I.-augmented” is defined. When a politician depends on computer in decision making, I do not think it is too different if the function is provided by an implant chip or a smartphone.

55. What personal heroes exist in history, in the present, and who most influenced you?

None too special to be singled out.

56. Any upcoming collaborative projects?

The Jet Propulsion Laboratory (of NASA and Caltech) is cooperating with my team to apply my results into their system.

57. Any upcoming solo projects?

Nothing major planned, as my current research has already taken all of my time.

Thank you for your time, Professor Wang.

Bibliography

  1. Artificial General Intelligence Society. (2015). Artificial General Intelligence Society. Retrieved from http://www.agi-society.org/.
  2. Encyclopedia Britannica. (2015). Encyclopedia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/.
  3. Indiana University. (2015). Indiana University. Retrieved from http://www.iu.edu/.
  4. LinkedIn. (2015). Pei Wang. Retrieved from https://www.linkedin.com/in/pei-wang-3a46241.
  5. Pei, W. (2007). Three fundamental misconceptions of Artificial Intelligence.Journal Of Experimental & Theoretical Artificial Intelligence, 19(3), 249-268. doi:10.1080/09528130601143109
  6. Peking University. (2015). Peking University. Retrieved from http://english.pku.edu.cn/.
  7. Wang, P. (2015). Dr. Pei Wang. Retrieved from http://cis-linux1.temple.edu/~pwang/.
  8. Wang, P. (2012). Motivation Management in AGI Systems. Retrieved from http://cis-linux1.temple.edu/~pwang/Publication/motivation.pdf.
  9. Wang, P. (2015). NARS: an AGI Project. Retrieved from https://sites.google.com/site/narswang/.
  10. WANG P. PROBLEM SOLVING WITH INSUFFICIENT RESOURCES.International Journal Of Uncertainty, Fuzziness & Knowledge-Based Systems [serial online]. October 2004;12(5):673-700. Available from: Academic Search Complete, Ipswich, MA. Accessed December 3, 2015.

Appendix I: Footnote

[1] Associate Professor (2008-Present), Temple University; Director of Research (2000, January-2001, April), Webmind Inc.

[2] Individual Publication Date: April 15, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com.

[3] Ph.D. (1991, September-1995, December), Computer Science and Cognitive Science, Indiana University; M.S. (1983-1986), Computer Science, Peking University; B.S. (1979-1983), Computer Science, Peking University.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Associate Professor Pei Wang.

[5] Please see Wang, P. (2015). Dr. Pei Wang. Retrieved from http://cis-linux1.temple.edu/~pwang/.

[6] Please see LinkedIn. (2015). Pei Wang. Retrieved from https://www.linkedin.com/in/pei-wang-3a46241.

[7] Please see Artificial General Intelligence Society. (2015). Artificial General Intelligence Society. Retrieved from http://www.agi-society.org/.

[8] NARS: an AGI Project (2015) states:

NARS (Non-Axiomatic Reasoning System) is a general-purpose reasoning system, coming from my study of Artificial Intelligence (AI) and Cognitive Sciences (CogSci).

What makes NARS different from conventional reasoning systems is its ability to learn from its experience and to work with insufficient knowledge and resources.

NARS attempts to uniformly explain and reproduce many cognitive facilities, including reasoning, learning, planning, reacting, perceiving, categorizing, prioritizing, remembering, decision making, and so on.

The research results include a theory of intelligence, a formal model of the theory, and a computer implementation of the model.

The ultimate goal of this research is to fully understand the mind, as well as to build thinking machines. Currently this research field is often called “Artificial General Intelligence” (AGI).

Please see Wang, P. (2015). NARS: an AGI Project. Retrieved from https://sites.google.com/site/narswang/.

[9] Please see WANG P. PROBLEM SOLVING WITH INSUFFICIENT RESOURCES. International Journal Of Uncertainty, Fuzziness & Knowledge-Based Systems [serial online]. October 2004;12(5):673-700. Available from: Academic Search Complete, Ipswich, MA. Accessed December 3, 2015.

[10] Please see Wang, P. (2015). NARS: an AGI Project. Retrieved from https://sites.google.com/site/narswang/.

[11] Please see Pei, W. (2007). Three fundamental misconceptions of Artificial Intelligence. Journal Of Experimental & Theoretical Artificial Intelligence, 19(3), 249-268. doi:10.1080/0952813060114310

[12] Please see Pei, W. (2007). Three fundamental misconceptions of Artificial Intelligence. Journal Of Experimental & Theoretical Artificial Intelligence, 19(3), 249-268. doi:10.1080/0952813060114310

[13] Please see Pei, W. (2007). Three fundamental misconceptions of Artificial Intelligence. Journal Of Experimental & Theoretical Artificial Intelligence, 19(3), 249-268. doi:10.1080/09528130601143109

[14] Please see Wang, P. (2012). Motivation Management in AGI Systems. Retrieved from http://cis-linux1.temple.edu/~pwang/Publication/motivation.pdf.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Associate Professor Pei Wang (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal [Online].April 2016; 10(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-pei-wang-part-two.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, April 15). An Interview with Associate Professor Pei Wang (Part Two). Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-pei-wang-part-two.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Associate Professor Pei Wang (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A, April. 2016. <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-pei-wang-part-two>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An Interview with Associate Professor Pei Wang (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-pei-wang-part-two.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Associate Professor Pei Wang (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A (April 2016). www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-pei-wang-part-two.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Associate Professor Pei Wang (Part Two)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 10.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-pei-wang-part-two>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Associate Professor Pei Wang (Part Two)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 10.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-pei-wang-part-two.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Associate Professor Pei Wang (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 10.A (2016):April. 2016. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-pei-wang-part-two>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Associate Professor Pei Wang (Part Two) [Internet]. (2016, April); 10(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-pei-wang-part-two.

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2016-04-08

An Interview with Associate Professor Pei Wang (Part One)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Numbering: Issue 10.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Six)

Individual Publication Date: April 8, 2016 (2016-04-08)

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2016 (2016-05-01)

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Web Domain: www.in-sightjournal.com

Words: 2,907

ISSN 2369-6885

Associate Professor Pei Wang 1.png

Abstract

An Interview with Associate Professor Pei Wang. He discusses: geographic, cultural and linguistic background; influence on development; influences and pivotal moments; origination of interest in computer science; appealing sciences in youth; interest in human intelligence; differentiation of “human thinking” from current “artificial intelligence” (A.I.); philosophical assumptions surrounding A.I. and consciousness; interest in A.I.; science fiction genre and stories of possible future possible A.I.; recommended authors; interest in the convergence of human intelligence and A.I.; tools provided by the qualifications; “Mathematical Logic” and “Operating System” influence on the “research oath”; Peking University provisions over other universities; advice to young researchers; Ph.D. under Professor Douglas Hofstadter; “Hofstadter’s “love of intellectual freedom” and the methodology’s limitations; Outstanding Dissertation Award; unique strengths of the Cognitive Science program at Indiana University; doctoral dissertation topic; law, or laws, of thought from the first milestone; the second milestone; the present status of the “laws of thought”; distinguishing traits of Professor Hofstadter; “thinker” status of Professor Hofstadter; “unique manner” of Professor Hofstadter; big lesson in personal and professional life from Professor Douglas Hofstadter; director of research at Webmind Inc. and the position’s tasks and responsibilities; and Ben Goertzel’s personality, talents and abilities, and approach to “making computers think”.

Keywords: A.I., Ben Goertzel, computers, laws of thought, Pei Wang, Douglas Hofstadter.

An Interview with Associate Professor Pei Wang (Part One)[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Please see the footnotes throughout the interview, and bibliography and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. In terms of geography, culture, and language, where does your family background reside?

I am a Chinese in all these aspects.

2. How did this influence development?

I came to the USA when I was already 33 years old, so my Chinese background remains dominant in my life.

3. What about influences and pivotal moments in major cross-sections of early life including kindergarten, elementary school, junior high school, high school, and undergraduate studies (college/university)?

That period can be roughly divided into two parts. Before entering into Peking University as an undergraduate student in 1979, my beliefs were strongly shaped by the “Cultural Revolution”, which means I believed in all the “truths” told to me. I began to form my own opinions in all domains (political, scientific, personal, etc.) in the early 1980s in Peking University, so those are the defining years of my life.

4. Where did interest in computer science in general originate for you?

As a child, I had an interest in science. Later, that interest gradually focused on electrical devices, then further on computers when I selected computer science as a major.

5. As a child, what science appealed the most to you – for the transition into electrical devices and computer science?

Mathematics, physics, and chemistry.

6. What about interest in human intelligence in particular?

I was curious about how humans think a long time ago, but my study on this topic only began in my college years, driven by my interest in artificial intelligence.

7. What differentiates “human thinking” from current “artificial intelligence” (A.I.)?

The current mainstream A.I. aims at solving practical problems, and does not pay much attention to the principles governing the human thinking process.

8. What philosophical assumptions appear to have tacit assertion in conversation, discussions, media representations, and publications in the possibility for A.I. having consciousness?

One major assumption is that consciousness is something outside the cognitive processes, is something “additional”.

9. What about interest in A.I.?[5]

As a long-term fan of science fiction, I was exposed to the notion of A.I. many years ago before I decided to pursue it as a career. The possibility of building a thinking machine, especially the first one that “really thinks”, is too strong an attraction compared to all the other career opportunities that have been opened to me. It remains true even after I found my conception of A.I. is fundamentally different from the mainstream, including the cited definition of Encyclopædia Britannica.

10. What science fiction genre and stories portray possible future A.I. in an entertaining and accurate way?

Asimov’s stories and novels on robotics and Kubrick’s movie “2001: The space odyssey” are among the classics that are both insightful and entertaining, though I won’t call any of them “accurate”.

11. Any recommended authors?

Beside Isaac Asimov, I want to recommend “The Mind’s I: Fantasies and Reflections on Self & Soul” by Daniel Dennett and Douglas Hofstadter.

12. What about interest in the convergence of human intelligence and A.I.?

In terms of application, I am sure in the future we will witness a convergence of human intelligence and A.I. as the best way to solve many problems, and I look forward to it. However, my current research is not directly oriented or driven by this vision. Instead, it is about how to build an A.I. that is fully autonomous, that is, it does not depend on human intervention, though can still be influenced, or even controlled, by human beings.

13. You earned a B.S. (1979-1983) in Computer Science from Peking University, M.S. (1983-1986) in Computer Science from Peking University, and a Ph.D. (1991, September-1995, December) in Computer Science and Cognitive Science from Indiana University.[6],[7] Based on the interest in human intelligence and artificial intelligence, and their correspondence with computer science and cognitive science, respectively, what tools did these qualifications provide for research into the convergence of these areas?

These two universities gave me experiences that are very different, and even complementary in a sense.

As mentioned above, Peking University taught me to think using my own mind, as well as providing me a solid foundation in computer science and mathematics, among other knowledge. However, in my college years, A.I. was not even in the curriculums of Chinese universities – it was very new, so there was few faculty doing it. “Cognitive science” was mostly unheard of, though I managed to audit a cognitive psychology course in the psychology department. The courses that have the strongest influence to my research path are “Mathematical Logic” and “Operating System”.

On the other hand, Indiana University has one of the best Cognitive Science Programs in the world, which is truly interdisciplinary. Through this training, I learned how to approach a problem from different perspective, as well as how to combine the knowledge from different backgrounds and traditions.

14. How did “Mathematical Logic” and “Operating System” influence this personal, long-term, and in-depth “research path”?

Influenced by my study of mathematical logic, my approach toward A.I. is to summarize the “laws of thought” observed in the human mind into a “formal logic” to govern the problem solving in a computer system. Operating system, on the other hand, includes ideas about how to let a computer to manage its own resources, such as processor time and storage space.

15. What experience did Peking University seem to provide at the time compared to other possible universities for your B.S. and M.S. degrees in computer science?

The most important lesson I learned from Peking University is that I should study the very fundamental problems in a domain, and that it is OK to challenge authority if I have enough reason to do so.

16. “I should study the very fundamental problems in a domain” seems like good advice to young researchers. Any further comments on it?

Young researchers are often told that they should “start with small problems, then gradually move to big problems”. For example, if you want to study A.I., you should accept the existing opinion on what intelligence is and how it should be achieved, and try to make progress on the path most people are taking. This advice of course makes a lot of sense, but it also has the effect that after following other people’s steps, your ideas are restricted by the traditional assumptions whose validity has not been carefully checked.

On the contrary, the students of Peking University has the tradition of attacking the “big problems” in a domain at the very beginning, without depending on the tradition. In my case, I began my work by considering how “intelligence” should be understood in this context and what the most promising approach toward it is, instead of accepting the majority opinions on these issues as my starting point.

17. What about Indiana University for the PhD under Professor Douglas Hofstadter in Computer Science and Cognitive Science?

The most important influence I got from Indiana University, especially from Professor Douglas Hofstadter, is the love of intellectual freedom, that is, a researcher should pursue research topics according to personal passion, rather than to pragmatic considerations such as funding opportunity, career path, etc.

18. Does Professor Hofstadter’s “love of intellectual freedom” have limitations in its methodology, or philosophical considerations – something which limits absolute consideration of intellectual subjects outside standard limitations of time, monetary resources, and talent and ability?

Of course, each methodology has its strength and weakness. If intellectual freedom is stressed too much, the results are often unrealistic or unpractical. For the health of a research community, it is necessary to have different types of researchers.

19. You earned the Outstanding Dissertation Award in the Cognitive Science Program at Indiana University in March, 1996.[8] What does this award mean to you?

It means a lot. Unlike most PhD dissertations, including most of them from Hofstadter’s group, my dissertation topic and most of the main ideas in it had been formed before I became a PhD student – I had worked on those ideas for about 8 years in China. Professor Hofstadter did not fully agree with me on those ideas – he considered some of them brilliant, though did have deep doubts about some others. Even so, he gave me full support to pursue those ideas. I was very happy when I saw that my dissertation not only got his approval, but also the acknowledgement of the prestigious program.

20. What unique strengths come from the Cognitive Science Program at Indiana University compared to others before 1996 and after it into the present?

Cognitive Science is handled very differently in different universities over the world. One extreme is to have a “Cognitive Science Department”, just like other traditional departments. Another extreme is to take it as a cooperation of several departments by allowing the students to enroll in courses offered by the other disciplines. The Cognitive Science Program at Indiana University is somewhere in between. It is still a cooperation of the participated departments, though the Program offers courses specially designed for students with different backgrounds. Also, the faculty members from different disciplines have close relationship in their research.

21. What was your doctoral dissertation research topic?

It is the same topic that I’ve devoted my whole career to, that is, to find the “laws of thought” for all forms of intelligence, including human and A.I., and then to build computer systems accordingly. My first milestone in this research was my Master Thesis finished in Peking University in 1986, and my doctoral dissertation in 1995 was the second major milestone.

22. Your “first milestone” and “second major milestone” represent the discovery of aspects of the “laws of thought.” What law, or laws, of thought emerged from the first milestone?

In my Master Thesis I defined “intelligence” as the ability of adaptation with insufficient knowledge and resources, and designed a very simple reasoning system to achieve this possibility. The system was primitive, though it shows the possibility of taking such an approach.

23. What about the second milestone?

My doctoral dissertation includes a much more powerful system, with detailed discussions of the related issues and ideas.

24. Where do the “laws of thought” stand now?

I published two monographs and many papers, and turned the system into an open source project. Most of the materials on this project can be accessed at the project’s homepage at https://sites.google.com/site/narswang/home.

25. What distinguished Professor Hofstadter from other researchers?

He is more of a “thinker” in the original sense than a “researcher” in the current academic world. His works are completely driven by his personal interest, while most other researchers are more and more driven by funding, promotion, peer pressure, etc. Though he has been a legend in the field for decades, he does not really belong to the research community of either A.I. or cognitive science, but has been doing everything in his own unique manner.

26. Two things ‘stand out’ to me. One, his “thinker” status; two, his “unique manner.” What defines this Professor Hofstadter as a thinker?

His attention is always on conceptual problems he considered as interesting and essential, rather than on technical details.

27. What characterizes Professor Hofstadter’s unique manner, or methodology for problem solving and creativity?

He relates many problems to each other, rather than follows the common practice of focusing on narrowly specified problems in a limited domain and described using special jargons.

28. What big lesson in personal and professional life stuck with you through the supervision of Professor Douglas Hofstadter?

His passion for pure intellectual pleasures.

29. You were director of research at Webmind Inc. from January, 2000 to April, 2001. What tasks and responsibilities came with this position?

I joined the company in April 1998 (when its name was IntelliGenesis) as its first paid employee. I was attracted to it by an opening announcement requiring for “a passion for making computers think”. Then I met the founder of the company, Ben Goertzel, and immediately started our collaborator-and-competitor relationship, which has lasted until the present. From 1998 to 2001, my title in the company had changed a few times, while my responsibility remained more or less the same, that is, to combine my research results into the company’s software, as well as to contribute to the conceptual designs of the software on other topics.

30. What defines Goertzel’s personality, talents and abilities, and approach to the “making computers think” to you?

He is a very smart person, and learns new ideas quickly. He considers “intelligence” as the ability to “solve complex problems in complex environments”, and attempts to build A.I. by integrating many techniques together into a single system.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Associate Professor (2008-Present), Temple University; Director of Research (2000, January-2001, April), Webmind Inc.

[2] Individual Publication Date: April 8, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-pei-wang-part-one; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues.

[3] Ph.D. (1991, September-1995, December), Computer Science and Cognitive Science, Indiana University; MS (1983-1986), Computer Science, Peking University; B.S. (1979-1983), Computer Science, Peking University.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Associate Professor Pei Wang.

[5] artificial intelligence (2015) states:

Artificial intelligence (AI), the ability of a digital computer or computer-controlled robot to perform tasks commonly associated with intelligent beings. The term is frequently applied to the project of developing systems endowed with the intellectual processes characteristic of humans, such as the ability to reason, discover meaning, generalize, or learn from past experience. Since the development of the digital computer in the 1940s, it has been demonstrated that computers can be programmed to carry out very complex tasks—as, for example, discovering proofs for mathematical theorems or playing chess—with great proficiency. Still, despite continuing advances in computer processing speed and memory capacity, there are as yet no programs that can match human flexibility over wider domains or in tasks requiring much everyday knowledge. On the other hand, some programs have attained the performance levels of human experts and professionals in performing certain specific tasks, so that artificial intelligence in this limited sense is found in applications as diverse as medical diagnosis, computer search engines, and voice or handwriting recognition.

Please see artificial intelligence (AI). (2015). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/technology/artificial-intelligence.

[6] Please see Peking University. (2015). Peking University. Retrieved from http://english.pku.edu.cn/.

[7] Please see Indiana University. (2015). Indiana University. Retrieved from http://www.iu.edu/.

[8] Please see LinkedIn. (2015). Pei Wang. Retrieved from https://www.linkedin.com/in/pei-wang-3a46241.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Associate Professor Pei Wang (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal [Online].April 2016; 10(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-pei-wang-part-one.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, April 8). An Interview with Associate Professor Pei Wang (Part One). Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-pei-wang-part-one.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Associate Professor Pei Wang (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A, April. 2016. <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-pei-wang-part-one>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An Interview with Associate Professor Pei Wang (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-pei-wang-part-one.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Associate Professor Pei Wang (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A (April 2016). www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-pei-wang-part-one.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Associate Professor Pei Wang (Part One)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 10.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-pei-wang-part-one>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Associate Professor Pei Wang (Part One)‘, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 10.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-pei-wang-part-one.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Associate Professor Pei Wang (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 10.A (2016):April. 2016. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-pei-wang-part-one>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Associate Professor Pei Wang (Part One) [Internet]. (2016, April); 10(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-associate-professor-pei-wang-part-one.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2016. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2016-04-01

An Interview with Dr. Katie Gibbs

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Numbering: Issue 10.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Six)

Individual Publication Date: April 1, 2016 (2016-04-01)

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2016 (2016-05-01)

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Web Domain: www.in-sightjournal.com

Words: 2,293

ISSN 2369-6885

Dr. Katie Gibbs

Abstract

An interview with Dr. Katie Gibbs. She discusses: background in science; self-definition as a “scientist, organizer, and advocate for science and evidence-based policies”; social and political campaigning; tasks and responsibilities as the executive director for Evidence for Democracy; public scientific organizations with the intent to inform public policy personal importance; organization for the “Death of Evidence” rally; professional research background influence on work at E4D; purposes of E4D; core message for the public; responsibilities to the public, scientific, and public policy communities with exposure in the media as a central representative of E4D; observed impacts of E4D on policy and decision-making; and E4Ds near and far goals.

Keywords: Canada, Death of Evidence, Dr. Katie Gibbs, Evidence for Democracy, E4D, science.

An Interview with Dr. Katie Gibbs[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Please see the footnotes throughout the interview, and bibliography and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. What is your background in science growing up and into the present?

I did my Ph.D. at the University of Ottawa in biology, but more specifically in conservation biology through looking at factors that affect endangered species. I did work on assessing legislation that aimed to protect endangered species, what aspects were working and what ones were not working.

2. You self-define as a “scientist, organizer, and advocate for science and evidence-based policies.”[5] What does each title mean to you?

That’s a great question. The science is very much my background, my education. The thing is doing a Ph.D. in science is that it changes the way you think, even if you don’t go on to actually actively do science. You still always think like a scientist. I think there’s a lingering effect of thinking like a scientist – always being critical in a good way. Always trying to second-guess yourself, push yourself on really trying to look at evidence. The organizer, for me, that is really about organizing other people. It is about getting other people excited. For the past four years, E4D has really been to try and organize the scientific community. So, I have enjoyed work with them and letting scientists know there is nothing wrong in standing up for science. It doesn’t make you any less of a scientist. Advocate, it is really similar. It is about pushing on these issues: funding for science, muzzling of government scientists, and putting them in a more political way.

3. Your background extends into social and political campaigning.[6] What kind of social and political campaigning?

Actually, I did most of my organizing and political background in volunteering for the Green party for many years. While I was doing my Ph.D., I did a lot of volunteering. I was the co-chair of the first youth wing of the Green Party. A lot of work building the youth wing of the party for many years. I was the President of my local riding association in Ottawa, and in the 2011 election, I took a break from my studies and worked in the central Green Party office in Ottawa in attempting to get Elizabeth May elected.

4. You founded Evidence for Democracy (E4D).[7] You are its Executive Director. What responsibilities and tasks come with this position?

Pretty much everything, when you’re the Executive Director of a small organization, you end up with a lot on your plate, and a big diversity in the things that you do. There are the things that you’d expect such as doing media interviews, travelling and giving talks around the country – both things I enjoy. Monitoring communication, making sure that the tone of everything that goes out fits with our work. Emails that go to our supporters, what goes into social media, when we put out op-eds and having a hand in crafting those. Other things include fundraising, administration stuff such as bookkeeping and governance are all in order, organizing board meetings, and all of that stuff.

5. Why are public scientific organizations with the intent to inform public policy important to you?

Part of what happens during my Ph.D. was that I was very interested in science for the sake of informing policy, and grew more frustrated that most science is never used, much less even seen by policy makers; I always found that very frustrating. We have all of these crisis issues facing humanity, and I think that science and evidence, and research, is really our best way to find solutions to those problems. We have the research. The science is already done, but the policy makers do not actually use it. That seems very frustrating to me. I was interested in forming an organization that really was pushing for the role of science and evidence in public policy-making.

6. As a Ph.D. student, you were one of the lead organizers for the “Death of Evidence” rally.[8] What took place there?

We had a mock funeral procession to commemorate the Death of Evidence in Canada. It was in response to a number of recent bills in motion that the Conservative government put through that really cut science funding and closed some really important science institutions and changed a bunch of pieces of science legislation. The science community was quite outraged over this. We want to demonstrate that outrage in a public and visible way. We had a mock funeral where we walked through downtown Ottawa from starting near campus here down to Parliament. Then, we had a bunch of speakers on the hill. It was a huge success. We were expecting a few hundred people. We ended up getting a few thousand.

7. In addition, on the Ph.D. front, how does this professional research background assist in work at E4D?

I think a lot of what we’re asking for is science. I would not have this same passion for science and its essential role if I didn’t have that science background. That instilled the value and appreciation for science in me. I think there is bit of a credibility factor there too. I work a lot on science issues. I do have that background and with the Ph.D. after my name that it shows I do know the science and do know what I’m talking about. It really influences the way that I think. I think that sometimes we’re more rigorous in some ways than other non-profit organizations and that because through a science base we have to be so, so, careful that everything we put out is based on facts and that we have the evidence to back up what we’re saying. That really comes from having a science background as well.

8. What are the purposes of E4D?

We are trying to create the public and political demand for evidence-based decision-making. We’re trying to mobilize the scientific community, get people who aren’t scientists to understand why these issues are important, and then try to harness and mobilize that support into political action.

9. You have been featured in numerous media outlets such as CBC, The Globe and Mail, The Hill Times, and the National Post, and others.[9],[10],[11],[12],[13],[14],[15],[16],[17] What core message do you wish to get to the public?

(Laughs) It’s kind of hard to boil down to one key message. The key message is recognizing and appreciating that science is one of the strongest forces in our lives. It is science that keeps our food supply, our drinking water, safe. It is science that develops new medicines that your doctor can prescribe to you. It is science that creates the new technology including powering your smart phone. A lot of it is behind the scenes.

10. What responsibilities to the public, scientific, and public policy communities comes with this exposure as the central representative of E4D?

I think part of it is being really clear when I’m representing E4D and when I’m giving my personal opinion on something. It is about us making sure our work is evidence-based. That is really something that is a core value of ours.

11. What have been the observed impacts of E4D on policy and decision-making?

I think the biggest thing is looking at the last election period and, normally, there is almost no discussion of science during the election period. The biggest thing we were trying to impact during this last election was to influence the conversation and try to get Canadians and Candidates and the party leaders talking about science. I think we were hugely successful at that. We saw almost every outlet covering science issues. We saw so many candidates tweeting about science, mentioning science in the debates. We saw people going to the local debates and talking about science. We were really able to influence the conversation around the election. The policy changes we’re really going to see those with the new government. Part of the work that we did before the election was really trying to push for the parties to include some of our recommendations in their platforms, and the Liberals did take our recommendations, and made them part of their election promises.

12. What are its near and far goals?

The near goals are continuing our work at the federal government level, working to get a new communication policy that makes it clear that scientists can talk to the public and the media, and making sure that the long-form census gets re-instated, working with the government to create a Chief Science Officer position. Those are all of the short-term goals. I think the long-term goals are more about shifting the culture in Canada to one that values science and its role in public policy in our democracy.

Thank you for your time, Dr. Gibbs.

Bibliography

  1. [Parkland Institute]. (2013, December 13). No Science, No Evidence, No Truth, No Democracy – Katie Gibbs. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtnkVpL10tM.
  2. [Science for the People]. (n.d.). SCIENCE AND THE CANADIAN FEDERAL ELECTION #338. Retrieved from http://www.scienceforthepeople.ca/episodes/science-and-the-canadian-federal-election.
  3. [Voices-Voix]. (2016, April 1). Katie Gibbs – Silencing dissent in Canada 3/10. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_S2bBkp9Qo.
  4. Belliott, E. (2015, November 22). Ottawa residents shortlisted for Everyday Political Citizen of the Year. Retrieved from http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/ottawa-residents-shortlisted-for-everyday-political-citizen-of-the-year.
  5. (2015, May 19). Federal gov’t accused of muzzling Canadian scientists. Retrieved from http://canadaam.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=616173&playlistId=1.2379962&binId=1.815911&playlistPageNum=1&binPageNum=1.
  6. Davison, J. (2012, July 9). UPDATED Scientists rally on Parliament Hill to mourn ‘death of evidence’. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/scientists-rally-on-parliament-hill-to-mourn-death-of-evidence-1.1237215.
  7. Death of Evidence. (2016). Death of Evidence. Retrieved from http://www.deathofevidence.ca/.
  8. Evidence for Democracy. (2015). Evidence for Democracy. Retrieved from https://evidencefordemocracy.ca/.
  9. Gibbs, K.,Houben, A., Hutchings,, Mooers, A., Trudeau V.L., & Orihel, D. (2012, July).
    ‘The Death of Evidence’ in Canada: Scientists’ Own Words. Retrieved from http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2012/07/16/Death-of-Evidence/.
  10. Gibbs, K. & Westwood, A. (2015, August 25). We need a national debate on science. Retrieved from http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2015/08/12/we-need-a-national-debate-on-science.html.
  11. (2016). Katie Gibbs. Retrieved from https://ca.linkedin.com/in/katie-gibbs-30997917.
  12. Sementiuk, I. (2015, October 9). Scientist urges straight talk on research ahead of federal vote. Retrieved from http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/scientist-urges-straight-talk-on-research-ahead-of-federal-vote/article26764369/.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Executive Director, Evidence for Democracy.

[2] Individual Publication Date: April 1, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com.

[3] PhD, University of Ottawa.

[4] Photographs courtesy of Dr. Katie Gibbs.

[5] Evidence for Democracy. (2015). Katie Gibbs. Retrieved from https://evidencefordemocracy.ca/en/users/katie-gibbs.

[6] LinkedIn. (2016). Katie Gibbs. Retrieved from https://ca.linkedin.com/in/katie-gibbs-30997917.

[7] Evidence for Democracy. (2015). Evidence for Democracy. Retrieved from https://evidencefordemocracy.ca/.

[8] Death of Evidence. (2016). Death of Evidence. Retrieved from http://www.deathofevidence.ca/.

[9] [Voices-Voix]. (2016, April 1). Katie Gibbs – Silencing dissent in Canada 3/10. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_S2bBkp9Qo.

[10] Gibbs, K. & Westwood, A. (2015, August 25). We need a national debate on science. Retrieved from http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2015/08/12/we-need-a-national-debate-on-science.html.

[11] Davison, J. (2012, July 9). UPDATED Scientists rally on Parliament Hill to mourn ‘death of evidence’. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/scientists-rally-on-parliament-hill-to-mourn-death-of-evidence-1.1237215.

[12] [Parkland Institute]. (2013, December 13). No Science, No Evidence, No Truth, No Democracy – Katie Gibbs. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtnkVpL10tM.

[13] Sementiuk, I. (2015, October 9). Scientist urges straight talk on research ahead of federal vote. Retrieved from http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/scientist-urges-straight-talk-on-research-ahead-of-federal-vote/article26764369/.

[14] Belliott, E. (2015, November 22). Ottawa residents shortlisted for Everyday Political Citizen of the Year. Retrieved from http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/ottawa-residents-shortlisted-for-everyday-political-citizen-of-the-year.

[15] [Science for the People]. (n.d.). SCIENCE AND THE CANADIAN FEDERAL ELECTION #338. Retrieved from http://www.scienceforthepeople.ca/episodes/science-and-the-canadian-federal-election.

[16] Gibbs, K., Houben, A., Hutchings, J., Mooers, A., Trudeau V.L., & Orihel, D. (2012, July).
‘The Death of Evidence’ in Canada: Scientists’ Own Words. Retrieved from http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2012/07/16/Death-of-Evidence/.

[17] CTVNews. (2015, May 19). Federal gov’t accused of muzzling Canadian scientists. Retrieved from http://canadaam.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=616173&playlistId=1.2379962&binId=1.815911&playlistPageNum=1&binPageNum=1.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Dr. Katie Gibbs. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal [Online].April 2016; 10(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-katie-gibbs.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, April 1). An Interview with Dr. Katie Gibbs. Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-katie-gibbs.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Dr. Katie Gibbs. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A, April. 2016. <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-katie-gibbs>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An Interview with Dr. Katie Gibbs.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-katie-gibbs.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Dr. Katie Gibbs.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A (April 2016). www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-katie-gibbs.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Dr. Katie Gibbs’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 10.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-katie-gibbs>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Dr. Katie Gibbs’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 10.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-katie-gibbs.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Dr. Katie Gibbs.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 10.A (2016):April. 2016. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-katie-gibbs>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Dr. Katie Gibbs [Internet]. (2016, April); 10(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-dr-katie-gibbs.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2016. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2016-03-22

An Interview with Alana Westwood

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Numbering: Issue 10.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Six)

Individual Publication Date: March 22, 2016 (2016-03-22)

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2016 (2016-05-01)

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Web Domain: www.in-sightjournal.com

Words: 2,466

ISSN 2369-6885

 Alana Westwood

Abstract

An interview with Alana Westwood. She discusses: background in science; national research coordinator position for Evidence for Democracy, and its tasks and responsibilities; importance of public scientific organizations; research informing professional work; purposes of Evidence for Democracy; summary statement on published articles; hypothetical worst case scenario for Canadian citizens without accurate scientific information; hypothetical best case scenario for Canadian citizens without accurate scientific information; technological assistance in prevention of animal extinction; Canada becoming the next great nation in the middle and latter half of the twentieth century; observed impacts of E4D on policy and decision-making; and E4Ds near and far goals.

Keywords: Alana Westwood, Canada, E4D, Evidence for Democracy, science.

An Interview with Alana Westwood[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Please see the footnotes throughout the interview, and bibliography and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. What is your background in science growing up and into the present?

In terms of science formal training, I have an undergraduate degree in science from the University of Winnipeg. As well, I am almost finished my PhD at the University of Dalhousie department of biology in conservation biology with a focus on endangered species research. Informally, I’ve been doing science and science-related field work for over ten years now. It started as a young teenager: my summer job was counting mosquitoes, taking them out of traps, and sorting them into a genus. It’s been a long experience with hands-on field-based science, particularly in conservation biology and the study of the environment.

2. You have the position of national research coordinator for Evidence for Democracy (E4D).[5] What responsibilities and tasks come with this position?

E4D is an organization that has been around for over two years. We are a young organization. We have four staff members and hundreds of volunteers. My position involves administration and development for the research program, and work with volunteers. We have volunteers leading research projects. Each has volunteers to work on these projects. Other projects are led by me. E4D is small. Even so, I write, work with media, and so on.

3. Why are public scientific organizations with the intent to inform public policy important to you?

It is a needed voice. An unheard voice in Canada. Scientists, those involved in science, have a training, expertise, and unique perspectives and insights – not to mention the opportunities to discover more. Before E4D, no cohesive voice existed for scientists and science in Canada. We need a healthy environment, healthy population, good science, good support for science, and good evidence-based decision-making for an innovative nation. We had a vacuum before. There were fringe organizations. No one on the national stage said, “We need public policies backed by evidence-based decision-making.” There is a huge demand for this. We see this as supporters and volunteers. They come from every unlikely place, politically and occupationally.

4. You are a PhD candidate on avian species at risk in forest landscapes at Dalhousie University under the supervision of Dr. Cindy Staicer. You have four refereed publications in relation to biology, ecology, and geo-informatics. Therefore, you have developed the relevant professional skills and knowledge for professional work in Evidence for Democracy. How does this research inform professional work at Evidence for Democracy?

You need to understand science to be an advocate and voice for science. You need to understand collection, dissemination, researcher collaboration, basic research consequences into areas of innovation, and monitoring and baseline characterizations for understanding the next steps in the research. To be honest, I never felt right in science. Other scientists seem more curious curiosity-driven and passionate for natural systems in their research, not me. I was coming from a point of view of conservation and pragmatics. I derive means of informing decision-making for practical applications. In my case, I am working with endangered species. I wanted to do research to address the declines of these species. I wanted to do a Ph.D. in science as opposed to environmental studies or philosophy. I needed to understand science. I needed to understand data gathering, data validation, and peer-review. If you do not know that information, how can you tell good science from bad science? When presented with facts, how can you evaluate conflicts of interest, even mistakes? It’s important to examine data sources and conclusions. I’ve worked with amazing scientists. I see the work, and the linkages and connections in their work. I work with federal scientists too. I have insight into their working conditions. It is something E4D is highly vocal about: wanting to change working conditions and the funding situation for federal scientists. For those reasons, especially with E4D for me, it would be impossible without the foundation in more traditional science.

5. What are the purposes of Evidence for Democracy?[6]

To promote evidence-based decision-making at all levels of government. To advocate for scientists for access to stable funding, and to communicate their research. We serve to educate and inform the public.

6. You wrote articles such as We need a national debate on science, Stephen Harper’s Blatant Hypocrisy on Science, and The need for evidence-based policies.[7],[8],[9],[10],[11],[12],[13],[14],[15] An obvious stream of concern to do with evidence-based information innervating the world of public policy.[16] What is the summary statement on these, and other, published articles?

I write more broadly (such as nature journalism and fiction). However, my E4D work into this previous election has been focused making sure Canadians know science is an important election issue. We have faced serious challenges to science with the past government. I want to ensure Canadians had the information necessary to their decision about support for science by the time of polling.

7. Hypothetical worst case scenario: if Canadian citizens do not have accurate science information when making decisions about public policy, how would this affect their everyday lives?

It would be hard to draw an immediate connection to a particular reduction and say, “Okay, this is the effect.” However, we would see severe indirect effects. For example, public-funded science is responsible for monitoring food safety and inspection, water quality, ocean health, and toxicology. We lost people from every department. If you do not have these checks and balances, problems will occur. When you cut science and stifle science, people think, “Okay, we’ll have less research for new discoveries.” However, a lot is maintaining the baseline, figuring out where we are, and tasks needing doing to keep people safe and healthy. It is important to ensure that the environment is not degraded to the point of inability to provide necessary ecological services.

8. Hypothetical best case scenario: if Canadian citizens do have accurate science information when making decisions about public policy, how will this affect their everyday lives?

Let’s say all governmental levels embrace evidence-based decision-making, parliamentary debate will become slow in the development of legislation. Why? Government would need to evaluate more facts and reports. We would need a Parliamentary Science Officer. The Liberals pledged to create one. Policies would receive further study with eventual implementation in solid evidence. A good example is crime. Global consensus is increasing punishment for less serious offences increases recidivism. Other countries are moving from this model. Canada ignored the evidence for the previous four years. We saw minimum sentencing move up. On the flip side, if you were to have evidence-based decision-making, you would see reduction in small crime imprisonment, and increased focus on better health outcomes and better family outcomes for offenders.

9. With respect to species at risk, for instance, bird species at risk, how can technology assist in preventing extinction of species that are risk such as various avian species?

Technology assists comprehension. For example, we utilize advanced geo-spatial mapping methods, modelling methods, to understand bird migration and habitats. All of the time we are putting geo-locator tags on birds. As the technology improves, the tags get smaller. We track migration patterns and find at-risk habitats. Technology provides an idea of the needed conservation action. Ultimately, it comes down to the political realm whether conservation efforts happen, or not. Whether land is protected from development, climate policy, and climate change is a serious factor facing multiple bird species. Evidence-based decision-making commitment becomes a necessity. Indeed, technology can support more information. Even so, one’s use of the information is equally important, if not more important. In general, for bird extinction, technology will not save them. Only we develop the better relationship with resource efficiency and utilization.

10. Could Canada become the next great nation in the middle and latter half of the twentieth century with respect to improvements in ecological and environmental science policy?

It depends on if the social and political will is there. The way that we’ve seen things go in the last ten years has been the opposite. It will remain within the direction this new majority Liberal government takes for Canada.

11. What have been the observed impacts of E4D on policy and decision-making?

One big impact is raising consciousness and awareness. Science became an election issue. We were able to mobilize hundreds of volunteers. Thousands attended events and educational evenings, candidate debates, and panels organized by E4D and partner groups over the last few years. It highlights the importance of science to citizens of Canada, evidence-based decision-making, and what this means for a democracy. Every major newspaper covered the issue. The international community is aware. It catapulted into the public, which has never been seen before in Canada, ever.

12. What are its near and far goals?

We accomplished one major goal with the recent election. We focused information for citizens to scientifically-informed election choices.  Future goals include holding the majority Liberal government to their promises with respect to science, support for science, and evidence-based decision-making. We want to continue work on this at other levels – at other organizational and governmental levels, to do a lot more public education. Canadians do want evidence-based public policy decision-making.

Bibliography

  1. [LegacyTVLive]. (2014, May 23). The Evidence for Democracy Alana Westwood (May 7 14) Host Parkland Institute. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yn7bjef4rMg.
  2. [TheRealNews]. (2015, October 22). Trudeau Pledge Tracker: Reinstating 40 Million in Science Funding and Appointing a Chief of Science. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Wozj-lPhno.
  3. Barker, N., Fontaine, P., Cumming, S., Stralberg, D.,Westwood, A., Bayne, E., Sólymos, P., Schmiegelow, F., Song, S., and Rugg, D. 2015. Ecological monitoring through harmonizing existing data: lessons from the Boreal Avian Modelling Project. Wildlife Society Bulletin, 39(3). Retrieved from https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281343963_Ecological_Monitoring_Through_Harmonizing_Existing_Data_Lessons_from_the_Boreal_Avian_Modelling_Project.
  4. Evidence for Democracy. (2016). Evidence for Democracy. Retrieved from https://evidencefordemocracy.ca/en.
  5. Westwood, A. (2015, March). How to save a bird nobody likes. Retrieved from http://www.sco-soc.ca/picoides/archive/Picoides28_1_2015.pdf.
  6. Westwood, A. (2015, November 13). Over the past 10 years this deadly fungus has nearly wiped out North America’s bats. Retrieved from http://community.lovenature.com/2015/11/13/over-the-past-10-years-this-deadly-fungus-has-nearly-wiped-out-north-americas-bats/
  7. Westwood, A. (2014, April 8). Redefining Recovery: A New Model for Saving Species At Risk. Retrieved from http://www.alternativesjournal.ca/community/blogs/wild-side/redefining-recovery-new-model-saving-species-risk.
  8. Westwood, A. (2015). Sailing Without a Map: The need for evidence-based policies. Retrieved from http://www.humanistperspectives.org/issue193/westwood.html.
  9. Westwood, A. (2014, June 6). Stephen Harper’s blatant hypocrisy on science. Retrieved from http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2014/06/06/stephen_harpers_blatant_hypocrisy_on_science.html.
  10. Westwood, A. (2015, August 12). We need a national debate on science. Retrieved from http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2015/08/12/we-need-a-national-debate-on-science.html.
  11. Westwood, A., Conciatori, F., Tardif, J., Knowles, K. 2012.Effects of Armillaria root rot disease on the growth of Picea mariana in the boreal plains of central Canada. Forest Ecology and Management 266: 1-10. Retrieved from http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378112711006815.
  12. Westwood, A., Reuchlin-Heugenholtz, E., Keith, D. 2014. Re-defining recovery: A generalized framework for assessing species recovery. Biological Conservation 172: 155-162. Retrieved from http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006320714000925?_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_origin=gateway&_docanchor&md5=b8429449ccfc9c30159a5f9aeaa92ffb&ccp=y

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Research Coordinator, Evidence for Democracy; Contributing Scientist, Boreal Avian Modelling Project; Instructor, Department of Biology, Dalhousie University.

[2] Individual Publication Date: March 22, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com.

[3] PhD, Candidate in Biology, Dalhousie University (2011-present); Hons BSc, Applied Environmental & Forest Ethics, University of Winnipeg (2011).

[4] Photograph courtesy of Alana Westwood.

[5] Evidence for Democracy. (2016). Evidence for Democracy. Retrieved from https://evidencefordemocracy.ca/en.

[6] [TheRealNews]. (2015, October 22). Trudeau Pledge Tracker: Reinstating 40 Million in Science Funding and Appointing a Chief of Science. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Wozj-lPhno.

[7] Westwood, A. (2015). Sailing Without a Map: The need for evidence-based policies. Retrieved from http://www.humanistperspectives.org/issue193/westwood.html.

[8] Westwood, A. (2014, June 6). Stephen Harper’s blatant hypocrisy on science. Retrieved from http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2014/06/06/stephen_harpers_blatant_hypocrisy_on_science.html.

[9] Westwood, A. (2015, August 12). We need a national debate on science. Retrieved from http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2015/08/12/we-need-a-national-debate-on-science.html.

[10] Westwood, A. (2015, November 13). Over the past 10 years this deadly fungus has nearly wiped out North America’s bats. Retrieved from http://community.lovenature.com/2015/11/13/over-the-past-10-years-this-deadly-fungus-has-nearly-wiped-out-north-americas-bats/.

[11] Westwood, A. (2014, April 8). Redefining Recovery: A New Model for Saving Species At Risk. Retrieved from  http://www.alternativesjournal.ca/community/blogs/wild-side/redefining-recovery-new-model-saving-species-risk.

[12] Westwood, A. (2015, March). How to save a bird nobody likes. Retrieved from http://www.sco-soc.ca/picoides/archive/Picoides28_1_2015.pdf.

[13] Barker, N., Fontaine, P., Cumming, S., Stralberg, D., Westwood, A., Bayne, E., Sólymos, P., Schmiegelow, F., Song, S., and Rugg, D. 2015. Ecological monitoring through harmonizing existing data: lessons from the Boreal Avian Modelling Project. Wildlife Society Bulletin, 39(3). Retrieved from https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281343963_Ecological_Monitoring_Through_Harmonizing_Existing_Data_Lessons_from_the_Boreal_Avian_Modelling_Project.

[14] Westwood, A., Reuchlin-Heugenholtz, E., Keith, D. 2014. Re-defining recovery: A generalized framework for assessing species recovery. Biological Conservation 172: 155-162. Retrieved from http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006320714000925?_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_origin=gateway&_docanchor&md5=b8429449ccfc9c30159a5f9aeaa92ffb&ccp=y.

[15] Westwood, A., Conciatori, F., Tardif, J., Knowles, K. 2012. Effects of Armillaria root rot disease on the growth of Picea mariana in the boreal plains of central Canada. Forest Ecology and Management 266: 1-10. Retrieved from http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378112711006815.

[16] [LegacyTVLive]. (2014, May 23). The Evidence for Democracy Alana Westwood (May 7 14) Host Parkland Institute. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yn7bjef4rMg.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Alana Westwood. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal [Online].March 2016; 10(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-alana-westwood.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, March 22). An Interview with Alana Westwood. Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-alana-westwood.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Alana Westwood. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A, March. 2016. <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-alana-westwood>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An Interview with Alana Westwood.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-alana-westwood.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Alana Westwood.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A (March 2016). www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-alana-westwood.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Alana Westwood’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 10.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-alana-westwood>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Alana Westwood’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 10.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-alana-westwood.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Alana Westwood.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 10.A (2016):March. 2016. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-alana-westwood>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Alana Westwood [Internet]. (2016, March); 10(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-alana-westwood.

License and Copyright

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Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2016. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2016-03-15

An Interview with Dr. Fr. Paul Gabor, S.J. (Part Two)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 10.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Six)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: March 15, 2016

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2016

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,294

ISSN 2369-6885

 Dr. Fr. Paul Gabor, S.J.

Abstract

An interview with Dr. Fr. Paul Gabor, S.J. He discusses: description of research areas and the reason for personal interest in these areas; entering the ranks of the Vatican Observatory, and the main misconception about the purpose of the Vatican Observatory’s Research Group in Tucson, Arizona and the Vatican Observatory in general; source of ability to speak eight languages and the assistance in current work; convictions in Roman Catholicism, and arguments and evidences for the truth of Christianity in general and Roman Catholicism in particular; and the current activities at the Vatican Observatory and the aim of the research in the future.

Keywords: Fr. Paul Gabor, Roman Catholicism, Vatican Observatory.

An Interview with Dr. Fr. Paul Gabor, S.J. (Part Two)[1],[2],[3]

6. Your research interests lie in “tests of achromatic phase shifters, stabilization (through optical path dithering), wave front filtering (with single mode fibers), polarization and other issues regarding the implementation of nulling interferometry, techniques and instrumentation that can be used to discover planets orbiting other stars.”[4] In brief, could you describe each of these areas?  Furthermore, could you provide the reason for your personal interest in this research?

Interferometry can be used also with optical telescopes. It is very hard, though. Since radio waves have wavelengths of inches or even miles, the instruments needed to manipulate them are of comparable size and the quality of the machining (tolerance of bumpy surfaces) suffices to be at a similar level. In optical astronomy, wavelengths are about one hundredths of a human hair, and therefore the quality of the surfaces needs to be a million times better than with radio instruments.  This is one reason why optical interferometry is so much harder than radio interferometry.

Let’s return to exoplanets. In order to learn more about them we need to develop techniques allowing us to separate the exoplanet’s light from its host star’s. This can be done using a particular interferometric method, called nulling. A nulling interferometer makes the star appear much fainter than it is, while leaving the exoplanet at full brightness. It does it by cleverly combining the troughs and crests of optical waves. Since we need to overcome a contrast of ten orders of magnitude (1 unit to 10 billion), the level of control we need to have over the optical waves needs to be on a corresponding level. In other words, the instrument needs to control the geometric lengths of all optical paths within it (usually hundreds of meters) with an accuracy of a thousandth of a wavelength, i.e., a thousandth of a hundredth of a human hair: that is about the size of a single atom. It can be done. In fact, it was one of the things I did to earn my Ph.D.

Several ways of separating planet light from starlight are currently studied. Nulling interferometry is just one them. What remains to be seen is which of these methods is best and decide a plan of action, building advanced facilities on the surface of the Earth and in orbit.

7. In the September of 2010, you entered the ranks of the Vatican Observatory[5].[6] You had assignment to the Vatican Observatory’s Research Group in Tucson, Arizona[7], and became the Vice Director in September 2012.[8] What do you consider the main misconception about the purpose of the Vatican Observatory’s Research Group in Tucson, Arizona and the Vatican Observatory in general?

The Vatican Observatory is a standard research institute in the field of astrophysics. It is an institution of the Vatican City State, and its research staff are members of the clergy. The Observatory’s activity, however, is quite ordinary astrophysical research. There are numerous misconceptions about the Observatory’s work. People sometimes think we make horoscopes for the Pope or that we have been charged with resolving the enigma of the Star of Bethlehem. None of this is true.

And speaking of misconceptions, the word “observatory” itself is somewhat misleading. Literally, it designates a place where observation is conducted. Many astrophysical research institutes are called “observatories” because in the past they truly were places of observation. The institutions, still called “observatories” by inertia, conduct observations today in remote locations where they have placed their telescopes and other observing facilities to escape light pollution. The institution’s headquarters remain in the original locations, often with some historical instruments still on the premises. This is also the case of the Vatican Observatory. The institution has two sites with offices, libraries, meeting rooms, etc. One is at the Papal summer residence of Castel Gandolfo, and the other is in the main building of the Department of Astronomy of the University of Arizona in Tucson. Currently we operate only one telescope. It is on Mt Graham in Arizona, about 3 ½ hour drive from campus.

8. You speak eight languages at various proficiencies with great proficiency in English, Polish, Czech, Slovak, and French, and elementary proficiency in Italian, German, and Hungarian.[9] Where does this polyglot[10] ability source itself?  How does this assist in your current work?

I am very fortunate that I was exposed to multiple languages at an early age. My mother was an English teacher, and we had English friends who would spend time at our home.  She taught me English in such a natural way that I do not recall learning it. I have only vague snippets of memories of playing with my mother, and, as she told me later, she would sometimes use English, and of listening to a recording of Alice Through the Looking Glass over and over (I don’t know why it held such a sway over me). I believe that exposure to languages at an early age is a necessary, although not sufficient, condition for good aural comprehension and good pronunciation. I grew up hearing Slovak, Czech, Hungarian, and English on a daily basis. When I learned Russian, German, French, Polish and Italian, comprehension and pronunciation came to me easily. A Czech friend of mine in Paris did some research into the issue because she wanted to know how to bring up her children to be bilingual. She found that exposure to several languages at an early age may cause some children problems. I would say that it is well worth the risk. Each language is a new world and if you master it, it is a new home.

9. In terms of the relationship between science and theology, much writing, and modern discourse emerges with rediscovery of prior theologians, religions, and irreligious thinkers, and some in groups such as the The New Atheists, where does your conviction in Roman Catholicism lie? In particular, what arguments and evidences most convince you of the truth of Christianity in general and Roman Catholicism in particular?

Raymond of Sabunde in the early 15th century developed the doctrine of the Two Books. The roots of this teaching may be found already in St Paul (Rom 1:20) and several Church Fathers. The idea is simple: In his desire to reveal himself to us, God gave us two books, the Book of Nature and the Book of Scripture. Neither are an easy read but both are from the same Author, and therefore cannot be in contradiction. Galileo embraced the idea and developed it further, noting that the language of the Book of Nature is mathematics.

This doctrine implies that the faithful should not be leery of science. People often confuse Science herself with what the Enlightenment, French positivism and other philosophical currents mistakenly ascribed to her: an assault on Mystery.  It is true that philosophy in general, and natural philosophy in particular have demythologized the educated person’s view of the world. But the demise of animism, hylozoism and ancient mythologies among ordinary people must be attributed to the disproportionate effectiveness of the Gospel in transforming human hearts and societies.

Unlike myth, however, Mystery is an irreducible reality. It cannot be reduced to simpler terms. It is a dimension of reality. Either you perceive it or you do not. And most scientist do perceive it and marvel at it, regardless of their religious confession. Let me quote Richard Feynman, whom nobody would accuse of religious belief, “Why nature is mathematical is a mystery. […T]he fact that there are rules [laws of nature] at all is a kind of miracle.” Mystery with a capital “M” cannot be explained away. Scientists feel it as a subtle and intriguing beckoning. Rudolph Otto called this aspect of Mystery, mysterium fascinosum. Science is a dialogue between attentive students of the Book of Nature and its Author. It is a path leading ever deeper into Mystery.

Look at those who undertake the journey and at its effects on them. They feel incredibly privileged that Mystery invites them to its intimate presence. Galileo wrote, “I am infinitely grateful to God who has deigned to choose me alone to be the first to observe such marvelous things which have lain hidden for all ages past.” Gratitude is the foundation of all true religion.

Creator, the Author of the Book of Nature, wants to be known. The God of Israel reveals Himself, “I [Wisdom] was daily his [God’s] delight, rejoicing always before him; rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men. [… Wisdom] has killed her beasts; she has mingled her wine; she has also furnished her table […] She cries upon the highest places of the city, ‘Come, eat of my bread, and drink of the wine which I have mingled’.” (Prov 8:30-31; 9:2-5) Science would be consummate impiety, presumptuous vanity and odious sacrilege if God chose to stay hidden. Faith in a God who wants to be known, who goes to extreme ends to be known, who “came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man”, is in perfect harmony with the adventurous undertaking we call science.

Science also implies a certain ethics. Here are a few examples. Science can be done only in a society valuing truth above courtesy. Those who are too arrogant and egocentric cannot do science. At some point in their career, their expectations will be frustrated, the experiments will falsify their hypotheses, empirical facts will contradict them.  When that happens, the arrogant and egocentric ultimately have only two choices: become humble or leave science. The Czech poet Otakar Brezina called science “asceticism most sublime”. It is the enthusiastic and spontaneous asceticism of children at play, immersed in their game, forgoing and forgetting everything else. If aliens come in spaceships, conquering cosmic distances, we can be sure that we will have a lot in common because their society, like ours, will have engaged in science. Assiduous reading of the Book of Nature (like that of the Book of Scripture) transforms individuals and societies – very slowly and painfully but inexorably.

10. What current research activities does the Vatican Observatory conduct at the moment? What does the group aim to research in the near and far future?

Most people think that a research institute is like an enterprise, with some strategic plan of activity. Some institutes have one, but this is not particularly useful. In our case, research at the Vatican Observatory is multiple and varied. It is not because we have some clever plan to cover key areas of current research but rather because we have a limited pool from which we can recruit research staff. Leo XIII in 1891 wanted to show clergy doing science, and therefore our research staff is exclusively clergy. As a result, our research is a function of the individuals and their interests.

We do have two major assets representing the Observatory’s research infrastructure. The first one is the Vatican collection of meteorites. Meteorites are samples of Solar-System bodies, of asteroids and comets, and some are also samples of the Moon and Mars. Some contain grains that have been unaltered since the time before the formation of the Solar System. Meteorites are an incredibly rich source of information for planetary science.

The second is the Vatican Advanced Technology Telescope (VATT) on Mt Graham in Arizona. Its primary is the prototype spin-cast mirror, made by Roger Angel and his team in the mid 1980s. It is parabolic, with a diameter of 1.8 metres and an equal focal length.  Using the same technology, the Mirror Laboratory has since produced a number of 6.5-metre and 8.4-metre mirrors, the largest monolithic mirrors ever produced. VATT was dedicated in September 1993, and in order to produce good science for a few more decades, we decided to automate it together with University of Arizona’s two other telescopes, creating a robotic telescope network.

Classic telescope-time management implied that scientists would submit observing proposals, and then telescope time would be allocated to them as a number of whole nights because observing meant going up to the telescope, operating it and acquiring data. This meant that each night the telescope would serve only one science case.

With larger, more costly and more complicated facilities, the system is different. The telescope is operated by a specialist operator. Data acquisition is sometimes conducted by the scientists themselves but increasingly also this is done by specialized personnel. There are major advantages to such a system. The facilities are exclusively in the hands of people who are efficient at what they are doing. Several science cases can be accommodated in a single night, adapting the programme to the conditions. The disadvantage is the cost.

Smaller telescopes cannot afford to employ the necessary specialists. The answer is robotic operation. What is more, it turns out that robotic facilities are more efficient at certain types of tasks, such as repetitive monitoring of a large number of targets. Even the best trained humans cannot be expected to hop from one target to another after only a couple of minutes all night long, every night. The robot reduces the overhead time between data acquisitions (e.g., slewing and pointing) to a minimum. As a result, robotic facilities can conduct research programmes that have not been thinkable with human operators.

Bibliography

  1. ATLAS Experiment (2014). ATLAS Experiment. Retrieved from http://atlas.ch/.
  2. CERN (2014). About CERN. Retrieved from http://home.web.cern.ch/about.
  3. CERN (2014). CERN. Retrieved from http://home.web.cern.ch/.
  4. Charles University (2014). Charles University. Retrieved from http://www.cuni.cz/UKENG-1.html.
  5. Czech Republic. (2014). InEncyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/149085/Czech-Republic.
  6. Gabor, P. (2014, December 13). “Everybody knows” Part I. Retrieved from http://www.vofoundation.org/blog/everybody-knows-part-i/.
  7. Gabor, P. (2014, December 16). “Everybody knows” Part II. Retrieved from http://www.vofoundation.org/blog/everybody-knows-part-ii/.
  8. Gabor, P. (2014, December 17). “Everybody knows” Part III. Retrieved from http://www.vofoundation.org/blog/everybody-knows-part-iii/.
  9. Gabor, P. (2014, December 5). International Year of Light: Cosmic Light in Arizona. Retrieved from http://www.vofoundation.org/blog/international-year-of-light-cosmic-light-in-arizona/.
  10. Gabor, P. (2014, April 14). Introducing the Vatican Observatory. Retrieved from http://astro.physics.muni.cz/cz-eso-2014/images/Gabor.pdf.
  11. Gabor, P. (2014, December 5). Newton Center. Retrieved from http://www.vofoundation.org/blog/newman-center/.
  12. Gabor, P. (2014, December 5). Terrifying Silence or Wondrous Generosity. Retrieved from http://www.vofoundation.org/blog/terrifying-silence-or-wondrous-generosity/.
  13. Gabor, P. (2014, December 5). The Deepest Picture Ever. Retrieved from http://www.vofoundation.org/blog/the-deepest-picture-ever/.
  14. P. (n.d.). The Heavens and Timekeeping, Symbolism and Expediency. Retrieved from http://www.cacr.caltech.edu/futureofutc/2011/program/presentations/AAS_11-663_Gabor.pdf.
  15. Geneva. (2014). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/229000/Geneva.
  16. Institut d’Astrophysique Spatiale (2014). Institut d’Astrophysique Spatiale. Retrieved from http://www.ias.fr/en.
  17. J COLLOT, P DESAINTIGNON, P GABOR et al. (1994)A neutron irradiation facility featuring cryogenic temperatures and dedicated to Large Hadron Collider detector design, 525-529. In Nuclear Instruments and Methods in Physics Research Section A: Accelerators, Spectrometers, Detectors and Associated Equipment 350 (3). http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1994NIMPA.350..525C.
  18. Jesuit. (2014). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/302999/Jesuit.
  19. Kosice. (2014). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/322696/Kosice.
  20. Large Hadron Collider. (2014). Large Hadron Collider. Retrieved from http://home.web.cern.ch/topics/large-hadron-collider.
  21. LinkedIn. (2014). Paul Gabor: Vice Director, Vatican Observatory. Retrieved from https://www.linkedin.com/pub/paul-gabor/16/469/171.
  22. Ollivier, O. Absil, F. Allard et al. (2009)PEGASE, an infrared interferometer to study stellar environments and low mass companions around nearby stars, 403-434. In Experimental Astronomy 23 (1). http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2009ExA….23..403O.
  23. Mendeley. (2014). Paul Gabor, PhD. Retrieved from http://www.mendeley.com/profiles/paul-gabor/.
  24. Mullen, L. (2011, January 20). Reverence for the Heavens: How Astronomy and Religion Intersect. Retrieved from http://www.space.com/10656-astronomy-religion-cosmos-intersection.html.
  25. Ollivier, M. & Léger, A. (2006). Darwin: A Space Observatory for the Direct Detection of Exoplanets. Retrieved from http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/2006ESASP1306..505O.
  26. Olomouc. (2014). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/427902/Olomouc.
  27. Gabor, B. Chazelas, F. Brachet et al. (2008)Stabilising a nulling interferometer using optical path difference dithering, 365-369. In Astronomy and Astrophysics 483 (1). http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2008A%26A…483..365G.
  28. particle physics. (2014). InEncyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/445074/particle-physics.
  29. Pavel Gabor, Bruno Chazelas, Peter A. Schuller et al. (2008)Stabilising a nulling interferometer using optical path difference dithering: an update, 70131R-70131R-9. In Proceedings of SPIE. http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2008SPIE.7013E..51G.
  30. Pavel Gabor, Peter A. Schuller, Bruno Chazelas et al. (2008)Tests of achromatic phase shifters performed on the SYNAPSE test bench: a progress report, 70134O-70134O-11. In Proceedings of SPIE. http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2008SPIE.7013E.147G.
  31. Peter A. Schuller, Olivier Demangeon, Alain Leger et al. (2010)The NULLTIMATE test bench: achromatic phase shifters for nulling interferometry, 77342E-77342E-16. In Optical and Infrared Interferometry II. Edited by Danchi. http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2010SPIE.7734E..74S.
  32. Prague. (2014). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/473739/Prague.
  33. Republic of Cracow. (2014). InEncyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/141562/Republic-of-Cracow.
  34. Society of Jesus. (2014). The Jesuit Curia in Rome. Retrieved from http://www.sjweb.info/.
  35. Tucson. (2014). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/608409/Tucson.
  36. University of Paris XI (2014). University of Paris XI. Retrieved from http://www.u-psud.fr/en/index.html.
  37. Vatican Observatory Foundation. (2014). History. Retrieved from http://vaticanobservatory.org/about-us/history.
  38. Vatican Observatory Foundation. (2014). Paul Gabor, S.J.. Retrieved from http://vaticanobservatory.org/about-us/personnel-and-research/73-personnel-and-research/paul-gabor-sj/332-paul-gabor-sj.
  39. VOS Caritas Olomouc. (2014). VOS Caritas Olomouc. Retrieved from http://www.caritas-vos.cz/en.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Vice Director, Vatican Observatory Research Group.

[2] Individual Publication: March 15, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-fr-paul-gabor-sj-part-one; Full Issue Publication: May 1, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-fr-paul-gabor-sj-part-one.

[3] MSc (1988-1994), particle physics, Charles University in prague; BA (1997-1999), philosophy, Ignacjanum; BA (2000-2003), theology, Centre Sèvres; and PhD (2005-2009), Astrophysics, Université Paris Sud (Paris XI).

[4] Please see Vatican Observatory Foundation (2014). Paul Gabor, S.J.. Retrieved from http://vaticanobservatory.org/about-us/personnel-and-research/73-personnel-and-research/paul-gabor-sj/332-paul-gabor-sj.

[5] Please see Vatican Observatory Foundation (2014). History. Retrieved from http://vaticanobservatory.org/about-us/history.

[6] Please see Vatican Observatory Foundation (2014). Paul Gabor, S.J.. Retrieved from http://vaticanobservatory.org/about-us/personnel-and-research/73-personnel-and-research/paul-gabor-sj/332-paul-gabor-sj.

[7] Please see Tucson. (2014). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/608409/Tucson.

[8] Please see Vatican Observatory Foundation (2014). Paul Gabor, S.J.. Retrieved from http://vaticanobservatory.org/about-us/personnel-and-research/73-personnel-and-research/paul-gabor-sj/332-paul-gabor-sj.

[9] Please Please see LinkedIn (2014). Paul Gabor: Vice Director, Vatican Observatory. Retrieved from https://www.linkedin.com/pub/paul-gabor/16/469/171.

[10] An individual with knowledge of multiple language.  Someone with an aptitude for acquisition of languages, i.e. someone capable of speaking many languages with fluency.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Dr. Fr. Paul Gabor, S.J. (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal [Online].March 2016; 10(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-fr-paul-gabor-s-j-part-two.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, March 15). An Interview with Dr. Fr. Paul Gabor, S.J. (Part Two). Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-fr-paul-gabor-s-j-part-two.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Dr. Fr. Paul Gabor, S.J. (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A, March. 2016. <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-fr-paul-gabor-s-j-part-two>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An Interview with Dr. Fr. Paul Gabor, S.J. (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-fr-paul-gabor-s-j-part-two.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Dr. Fr. Paul Gabor, S.J. (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A (March 2016). www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-fr-paul-gabor-s-j-part-two.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Dr. Fr. Paul Gabor, S.J. (Part Two)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 10.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-fr-paul-gabor-s-j-part-two>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Dr. Fr. Paul Gabor, S.J. (Part Two)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 10.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-fr-paul-gabor-s-j-part-two.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Dr. Fr. Paul Gabor, S.J. (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 10.A (2016):March. 2016. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-fr-paul-gabor-s-j-part-two>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Dr. Fr. Paul Gabor, S.J. (Part Two) [Internet]. (2016, March); 10(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-fr-paul-gabor-s-j-part-two.

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1 Comment
2016-03-08

An Interview with Dr. Fr. Paul Gabor, S.J. (Part One)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 10.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Six)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: March 8, 2016

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2016

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,708

ISSN 2369-6885

 Dr. Fr. Paul Gabor, S.J.

Abstract

An interview with Dr. Fr. Paul Gabor, S.J. He discusses: childhood and adolescence trajectory influence on him, pivotal moments in personal development towards an interest in science and theology, the gains from the research and professional experiences; motivation for interest in philosophy and theology; the way that the priesthood entered and benefits personal life, and the greatest intellectual stimulation from within the Jesuits; origin of interest in physics, the physics of the small scale, and the instrumental side of particle physics; PhD work and entailed work, explanation for the lay person, and the esoteric aspects of this research.

Keywords: CERN, Dr. Fr. Paul Gabor, Košice, Particle Physics, science, Company of Jesus, theology, Vatican Observatory.

An Interview with Dr. Fr. Paul Gabor, S.J. (Part One)[1],[2],[3]

1. You were born and raised in Košice, Slovakia[4]. You studied Particle Physics[5] at Charles University[6] in Prague, Czech Republic[7] from 1988 to 1995[8]. You did instrumental work and participated in the development of the A Toroidal LHC Apparatus[9] (ATLAS) detector of the Large Hadron Collider[10] (LHC) at The European laboratory for Particle Physics[11],[12] (CERN) in Geneva, Switzerland[13].[14]  How did childhood and adolescence influence this trajectory?  What pivotal events in personal development lead to an interest in science and theology?  What did you most gain from these research and professional experiences?

I must have had a vocation to priesthood since childhood. Growing up behind the Iron Curtain, however, meant that I had a very convenient excuse not to do anything about it. You see, the avenue to public ministry passed through a couple of secret police-controlled seminaries. And so, in 1987, following in the footsteps of the Prophet Jonah, I applied to study particle physics at Charles University in Prague instead of heeding my vocation.

2. Furthermore, and with specifics, how did this interest in physics, physics of the small scale, and the instrumental side of Particle Physics enter your life?

Unlike Jonah whose detour was not very pleasant (he was thrown overboard and swallowed by a sea monster which then took him where the Lord had intended), my sojourn among particle physicists was unexpectedly pleasant. The Iron Curtain fell, and I found myself working in Geneva and Grenoble as well as in Prague among research scientists whom I discovered to be, by and large, very generous and great people.

3. Upon completion of this research and work, you entered the Company of Jesus[15],[16],[17] in 1995.[18] You completed a two-year novitiate in Kolin, Czech Republic[19].[20] You studied Philosophy for two years in Cracow, Poland[21], and taught philosophy for one year in Olomouc, Czech Republic[22].[23],[24] In addition to this extensive training, you studied Theology in Paris, France and had ordination in the Priesthood in 2004.[25] What motivated interest in Philosophy and Theology?

By 1995, however, God’s nagging became so overwhelming that I joined the Jesuits. The moment I stepped foot into the novitiate, the nagging stopped, and I felt a profound peace that comes from knowing that things have fallen into place. The novitiate itself was fairly depressing but, despite the turmoil and frustration of the more superficial strata of my being, there was an underlying peace. As for science, I thought that joining the Jesuits put an end to that. I thought that with my background I might perhaps be suited to do some apostolic work among scientists but that my days in the laboratory were over.

After noviciate, I was sent to Cracow to study philosophy. I spent two years there, 1997/1999. Looking for intellectual stimulation, I soon found a unique seminar, held by Michael Heller (Templeton Prize 2008), a diocesan priest, philosopher and mathematical physicist. The participants were undergraduates as well as professors, from a very broad range of disciplines – from logic and mathematics, through physics to psychology. One spring day in 1999, Professor Heller told me, “The Church needs you at the Vatican Observatory.” It came out of the blue, and I did not really think it realistic, considering the priorities of my immediate superiors.

I returned to Czechia to teach philosophy for a year in Olomouc. After that, in 2000, I went to do my theological studies in Paris. In January 2001, I received an invitation from Fr. George Coyne, Director of the Vatican Observatory, to come for an extended visit in the summer, ostensibly for the 4-week VOSS (Vatican Observatory Summer School; held typically every two years since 1986). I got permission and went. It was a very positive experience. In C. P. Snow’s terms, most Jesuits are firmly attached to the culture of humanities, and Jesuit scientists stand out in our communities as exceptions to the rule.

4. How did the Priesthood enter your life? How does the Priesthood benefit you?  Where do you find the greatest intellectual stimulation within the Jesuits?

During my early years in the Society of Jesus, I had come across a few Jesuit scientists who worked in research institutes while leading somewhat isolated lives in Jesuit communities, with the divide between Snow’s Two Cultures running deep across the common room. The Vatican Observatory, however, represents a Jesuit community where a scientist can feel at home. I saw that these Jesuits did scientific apostolate and had daily support of others sharing their mission.

Back in Prague, when I spoke to my Provincial, I did not tell him that I wanted to join the Vatican Observatory staff but my description of the Observatory’s apostolate must have been so enthusiastic that the Provincial told me straight away to looking into attending some classes in astrophysics during my spare time in Paris. By November 2001, it was decided that my formation will continue under the assumption that I would be joining the Vatican Observatory. That meant going back to Olomouc in 2003, ordination to the priesthood in 2004, exercise of pastoral duties in the University parish, return to Paris in 2005 for a “refresher” in physics which took the form of a second M.Sc. in 2006, and then a doctorate in astrophysics in 2009.

My Jesuit formation was then rounded off by seven months of tertianship (an Ignatian repetition of the novitiate, with another 30-day retreat, lots of prayer and reflection) in Australia in January-August 2010. I joined the Observatory in September 2010 and pronounced my final solemn vows in the presence of Father General Nicolas at the Roman Church of Il Gesu` (the Name of Jesus) where St Ignatius is buried on December 8, 2010.

Speaking of my formation as a member of a religious order, I must touch upon one additional point.  When I was twelve, I went through few very dark months resulting in my first conversion. It was very similar to Pascal’s wager, and as such, it was an intellectual conversion. Fifteen years later, my philosophical studies in Cracow brought about a second dark period when I realized that in spiritual matters, intellect cannot provide the level of certainty which I had attributed to it.  It was not until my theological training in Paris, another five years down the road, that I admitted to myself that my faith had been a form of intellectual conviction. At about the same time, I began to realize that for decades I had been overlooking something precious and important. When I was fifteen, I had a mystical encounter with God’s mercy. It was not until 2010, during my tertianship in Australia, that I started drawing from this source. The moral of the story is that the most important things can take surprising amounts of time, that even decades of formation in a religious order can be a very slowly acting remedy, and that perhaps many people mistake the significance of their various encounters with God’s grace.

5. You entered a PhD program in Astrophysics with Alain Léger[26], the individual that proposed the Darwin space observatory[27], after ordination and earned the PhD in 2009.[28] You chose instrumentation and research at the Institut d’Astrophysique Spatiale[29], University of Paris XI[30]. You focused on “two optical test beds, SYNAPSE and NULLTIMATE.”  What did this work entail?  How can you explain this for the lay person? (In particular, the two optical test beds.) What count as the more esoteric aspects of this research?

Exoplanets. Astrobiology. Nulling interferometry.

Since the discovery of the first exoplanet (planets orbiting other stars than our Sun) in 1995, thousands have been found. Apart from a handful which are very large and very far from their host star, we cannot take pictures of them. In fact, we only discover them by carefully analyzing the light of their host stars. For instance, if we see that the star grows periodically fainter, it may be an indication that there is a transiting planet and it obscures a part of the star’s light when passing between us and the star.

These indirect methods allow us to learn interesting things about the exoplanets but we would like to learn more. In particular, we would like to be able to measure the chemical composition of atmospheres of Earth-size exoplanets to see whether there is anything hard to explain by pure inorganic chemistry. In other words, to find biosignatures. If alien astronomers are studying the Earth they may wonder why there is water vapour, carbon dioxide, and oxygen in our atmosphere. Oxygen is so highly reactive that it cannot remain in an atmosphere in such abundance without being replenished constantly by some production mechanism. Otherwise, it would form oxides with various minerals on the planet’s surface, and free oxygen would soon disappear from the atmosphere. Therefore, the simultaneous presence of water vapour, carbon dioxide, and oxygen is a biosignature. The alien astronomer could deduce from it the existence of life on Earth. If we find an exoplanet with such biosignatures, then we would have a target that might mobilize enough interest in the world that nations would agree to go to have a closer look.

In order to do that we need to learn how to distinguish the light coming from the exoplanet from the much brighter light coming from its host star. When seen from a distance, say by a hypothetical alien astronomer, the Earth is 10 billion times fainter than the Sun in the visible light. What is more, the Earth would be so close to the Sun that, from the point of view of the alien astronomer, the two would blur into a single point of light. It is like looking at the headlights of a distant vehicle: you cannot tell how many there are; they blur into a single source of light. The huge contrast plus the tiny separation between the planet and its host star represent two of the major obstacles to learning more about exoplanets. It can be done, though. One approach is interferometry.

The idea of “beams of light” focused by the eye’s lens is how geometrical optics describes vision. With this simple model of how lenses work, optical astronomers produce images and work with them. When optical astronomers want to know the size of a galaxy, they take a picture, measure the apparent size and multiply it by the scale factor. Radio astronomers, on the other hand, cannot really obtain classical images in this way. Radio waves and light waves obey the same physics but the wavelengths are very different: radio waves are more than a million times longer. This means that if a radio telescope was to have the same resolving power as your eye it would have to be at least a couple of miles across! So, if radio astronomers want to know the size of a galaxy, instead of taking a picture and measuring it, they use a trick called interferometry. It has to do with comparing the time of arrival of the wave at different locations. Instead of one impossibly large radio telescope, with a dish spanning hundreds of miles, radio astronomers use arrays of small dishes separated by large distances. Then they compare the arrival times and other properties of the wave measured in those separate locations and this allows them to measure properties of radio sources, e.g., sizes of galaxies. In a way, they bypass taking pictures and obtain the desired quantities directly from the properties of the waves.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Vice Director, Vatican Observatory Research Group.

[2] Individual Publication: March 8, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-fr-paul-gabor-sj-part-one; Full Issue Publication: May 1, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-fr-paul-gabor-sj-part-one.

[3] MSc (1988-1994), particle physics, Charles University in prague; BA (1997-1999), philosophy, Ignacjanum; BA (2000-2003), theology, Centre Sèvres; and PhD (2005-2009), Astrophysics, Université Paris Sud (Paris XI).

[4] Please see Kosice. (2014). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/322696/Kosice.

[5] Please see particle physics. (2014). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/445074/particle-physics.

[6] Please see Charles University (2014). Charles University. Retrieved from http://www.cuni.cz/UKENG-1.html.

[7] Please see Prague. (2014). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/473739/Prague.

[8] Please see LinkedIn (2014). Paul Gabor: Vice Director, Vatican Observatory. Retrieved from https://www.linkedin.com/pub/paul-gabor/16/469/171.

[9] Please see ATLAS Experiment (2014). ATLAS Experiment. Retrieved from http://atlas.ch/.

[10] Please see Large Hadron Collider (2014). Large Hadron Collider. Retrieved from http://home.web.cern.ch/topics/large-hadron-collider.

[11] Please see CERN (2014). CERN. Retrieved from http://home.web.cern.ch/.

[12] Please see CERN (2014). About CERN. Retrieved from http://home.web.cern.ch/about.

[13] Please see Geneva. (2014). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/229000/Geneva.

[14] Please see Vatican Observatory Foundation (2014). Paul Gabor, S.J.. Retrieved from http://vaticanobservatory.org/about-us/personnel-and-research/73-personnel-and-research/paul-gabor-sj/332-paul-gabor-sj.

[15] A religious order founded by Saint Ignatius of Loyola given the original appellation “The Company of Jesus.”

[16] Please see Jesuit. (2014). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/302999/Jesuit.

[17] Please see Society of Jesus (2014). The Jesuit Curia in Rome. Retrieved from http://www.sjweb.info/.

[18] Please see Vatican Observatory Foundation (2014). Paul Gabor, S.J.. Retrieved from http://vaticanobservatory.org/about-us/personnel-and-research/73-personnel-and-research/paul-gabor-sj/332-paul-gabor-sj.

[19] Please see Czech Republic. (2014). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/149085/Czech-Republic.

[20] Please see Czech Republic. (2014). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/149085/Czech-Republic.

[21] Please see Republic of Cracow. (2014). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/141562/Republic-of-Cracow.

[22] Please see Olomouc. (2014). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/427902/Olomouc.

[23] Please see Olomouc. (2014). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved from http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/427902/Olomouc.

[24] Please see VOS Caritas Olomouc (2014). VOS Caritas Olomouc. Retrieved from http://www.caritas-vos.cz/en.

[25] Please see VOS Caritas Olomouc (2014). VOS Caritas Olomouc. Retrieved from http://www.caritas-vos.cz/en.

[26] Please see Ollivier, M. & Léger, A. (2006). Darwin: A Space Observatory for the Direct Detection of Exoplanets. Retrieved from http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/2006ESASP1306..505O.

[27] Please see Ollivier, M. & Léger, A. (2006). Darwin: A Space Observatory for the Direct Detection of Exoplanets. Retrieved from http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/2006ESASP1306..505O.

[28] Please see LinkedIn (2014). Paul Gabor: Vice Director, Vatican Observatory. Retrieved from https://www.linkedin.com/pub/paul-gabor/16/469/171.

[29] Please see Institut d’Astrophysique Spatiale (2014). Institut d’Astrophysique Spatiale. Retrieved from http://www.ias.fr/en.

[30] Please see University of Paris XI (2014). University of Paris XI. Retrieved from http://www.u-psud.fr/en/index.html.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Dr. Fr. Paul Gabor, S.J. (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal [Online].March 2016; 10(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-fr-paul-gabor-sj-part-one.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, March 8). An Interview with Dr. Fr. Paul Gabor, S.J. (Part One). Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-fr-paul-gabor-sj-part-one.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Dr. Fr. Paul Gabor, S.J. (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A, March. 2016. <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-fr-paul-gabor-sj-part-one>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An Interview with Dr. Fr. Paul Gabor, S.J. (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-fr-paul-gabor-sj-part-one.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Dr. Fr. Paul Gabor, S.J. (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A (March 2016). www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-fr-paul-gabor-sj-part-one.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Dr. Fr. Paul Gabor, S.J. (Part One)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 10.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-fr-paul-gabor-sj-part-one>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Dr. Fr. Paul Gabor, S.J. (Part One)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 10.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-fr-paul-gabor-sj-part-one.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Dr. Fr. Paul Gabor, S.J. (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 10.A (2016):March. 2016. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-fr-paul-gabor-sj-part-one>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Dr. Fr. Paul Gabor, S.J. (Part One) [Internet]. (2016, March); 10(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-fr-paul-gabor-sj-part-one.

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2016-03-01

An Interview with Pat O’Brien (Part Three)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 10.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Six)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: March 1, 2016

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2016

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,536

ISSN 2369-6885

Pat O'Brien.png

Abstract

An interview with Pat O’Brien. He discusses: role of exemplars for movements without direct religious affiliation; relationship with religious belief systems connected to humanist proclivities with secular humanist movements in history; interrelationship of theistic and non-theistic humanisms, and their mutual futures; the importance of the absolute division between church and state; evidences and arguments that make a transcendental being seem impossible, implausible, or unreasonable; and evidences and arguments that might make a transcendental entity possible, plausible, or reasonable.

Keywords: belief system, British Columbia Humanist Association, Center for Inquiry Canada, humanism, Humanist Canada, non-theistic, Pat O’Brien, theistic.

An Interview with Pat O’Brien (Part Three)[1],[2],[3]

16. Exemplars manifest themselves under the umbrella of “no religious affiliation,” at least in standard interpretations such as a lack of formal religion. An array of unmentioned artists, columnists, scientists, and writers.[4] What role do exemplars perform for these movements without direct religious affiliation?

Unfortunately we live in a world where the “cult of personality” influences many people. By creating our own “stars” we are better able to communicate our message. But when an existing star such as Ricky Gervais or Bill Nye take up the cause, people listen. Some in our community see this as a bit of a sell out. I disagree, as long as the message is consistent and not dumbed down, using famous people and TV and Movie stars is a very good way to give your message some credibility.

17. Apart from non-theistic – e.g. agnostic, atheistic, deistic, und so weiter – humanisms, plural manifestations, under the banner of Humanism, singular concept, some religious formulations ground themselves, in socio-cultural and ethical life, in belief systems translatable into humanism. An argument articulated by Dr. Susan Hughson, another past president of the British Columbia Humanist Association, in conversation with David Berner about Judaism, which could extend to others, as noted.[5],[6],[7],[8],[9] What relationship do religious belief systems connected to humanist proclivities have with the secular humanist movements in history?

For most of recorded history the concept of an atheist did not exist. It was taken for granted that there was an unseen world inhabited by goblins, ghosts, gods etc. It was not until relatively recently that the idea of a worldview that carried no supernatural baggage was even possible. There were pockets of it, some Greek philosophers are a good example but mostly the world was made up of people who had some kind of supernatural belief. So it was the religious, looking for something more, who began the slow intellectual march towards Humanism, Erasmus is a good example. Today he would be considered a religious person but in his day he had many ideas that did not endear him to either the Catholic or the burgeoning Protestant church. He is considered by many to be the founder of Humanism. Today, most religious Humanists seem to come from the Jewish tradition. Jews have a history of doubt and questioning so this does not come as a surprise, in fact the Humanist Chaplaincy at Harvard University is almost exclusively the product of Jewish Humanists.

18. With respect to their positive or negative interrelationship, the theistic and non-theistic humanisms, how might their mutual futures turn out to you?

If you are talking about theistic Humanism, I find that a contradiction. I don’t use the term as I think it has outlived its usefulness. Either you believe in God and are a theist or you do not and you are an atheist, many atheist adopt the Humanist worldview but Humanism and atheism do not necessarily go together. So I see a conflict between theists and Humanist and so the term Theistic Humanist is meaningless to me.

19. You noted, astutely, the separation of church and state in the United States of America, but not by necessity in Canada.[10] Preaching the Word of Atheism notes the forceful nature of creationism into Canadian schools and bias against atheists in the family court system too.[11] What remains the highest importance about this separation, the absolute division between church and state?

Religion is a personal matter as are family and personal relationships. In a free and democratic society, the only guarantee that you can keep your personal religious beliefs or your family structure or maintain the relationships that are important to you is by keeping government and by extension, laws, out of those areas. When someone tells me that their religion should inform how we are governed my first questions is, which of the thousands of versions of your religion do you want? Which interpretation of you scripture do you want to live under. Religion is something not even the religious can agree on how on earth could we form a societal structure that at its core is purely personal and introspective? The only way to design a society and laws so as to serve the most number of people is to base them on the things we have in common, not those things that divide us and religion is the great divider. The problem we secularists face is that the religious have had it their way for thousands of years. They do not want to give up any ground, this is understandable. But when someone asks for the same rights you have, it is not taking away you rights, many religious people see it this way and we need to fight this notion.

20. Carl Sagan gets quoted a lot. A great science communicator who carved the paths for numerous artists, fellow science communicators, professional scientists, and public intellectuals to express personal wonder for the universe. One quote, attributed to him, became immortalized about extraordinary claims with the need for proportioned evidence, which states, “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence,” even quoted in the CFI Canada updates, for instance.[12],[13] An adaptation from Marcello Truzzi’s quotation, which states, “An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof.”[14],[15] You typed one coda sentence, and in other forms throughout the article On Atheists:

Claiming there is an unseen transcendental being who is outside space and time and created the entire universe is a pretty extraordinary claim so the evidence had better be pretty extraordinary.[16]

What evidences and arguments make a transcendental being seem impossible, implausible, or unreasonable to you?

It is not the evidence or arguments for the existence of god that are unreasonable, it is the lack of evidence and sound argument that makes gods highly improbable. I have read dozens of books both for and against, seen dozens of hours of debates with brightest and the best of both sides and after all that I have yet to hear a convincing argument in favour of a god. The arguments in favour of a god could fill an encyclopaedia and after all that human effort, no one has proved anything, every argument seems to end with “well ya gottta have faith”, that to me is an admission of defeat.

21. What evidences and arguments might make a transcendental entity or object with some, most, or all of the traditional “divine attributes” appear possible, plausible, or reasonable to you?[17]

I have given this a lot of thought over the years and every bit of evidence that I can think of that might convince me that there is a god, I can think of a naturalistic explanation. In other words, I honestly cannot think of any evidence that could convince me. But that does not mean there isn’t any, other wise I am guilty of the argument from ignorance fallacy. No, if there really is a god who literally created my mind, then that god would know exactly what kind of evidence could convince me. So if there is a god, the evidence is trivial for it to produce. The fact that this evidence is not forthcoming gives me comfort that there is none. Of course the theists would say “Ya gotta have faith”, and that, QED, is the worst kind of evidence.

Thank you for your time, Mr. O’Brien.

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Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Board Vice-Chair, Center for Inquiry Canada (CFIC/CFI Canada); Past President, Humanist Canada; Past President, British Columbia Humanist Association.

[2] Individual Publication: March 1, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pat-obrien-part-three Full Issue Publication: May 1, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pat-obrien-part-three.

[3] Bachelor of Science & Bachelor of Education, Science, Biology, and Education.

[4] Exemplars including, but not limited to, (the late) Dr. Albert Einstein, Ann Druyan, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, (the late) Dr. Bertrand Russell, (the late) Betty Friedan, Bill Nye, (the late) Dr. Carl Sagan, Dr. Carol Tavris, Dr. Daniel Dennett, Dr. E.O. Wilson, Dr. Elizabeth Loftus, Dr. Eugenie C. Scott, Dr. Gloria Steinem, (the late) Dr. Isaac Asimov, James “The Amazing” Randi, (the late) Dr. Jonas Salk, (the late) June Callwood, Dr. Lawrence Krauss, Margaret Atwood, Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson, (the late) Dr. Paul Kurtz, (the late) Pearl S. Buck, (the late) Dr. R. Buckminster “Bucky” Fuller, Dr. Richard Dawkins, (the late) Simone de Beauvoir, Dr. Steven Weinberg, Dr. Susan Blackmore, and (the late) Dr. Victor J. Stenger.

[5] Please see [David Berner] (2015, April 8). Episode #151, DR. SUE HUGHSON, SHAW TV, David Berner April 8, 2015. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9ukJ1hDcJ0.

[6] Please see Society for Humanistic Judaism (2015). Society for Humanistic Judaism. Retrieved from http://www.shj.org/.

[7] Please see Unitarian Universalist Association (2015). Unitarian Universalist Association. Retrieved from http://www.uua.org/.

[8] Please see Flynn, T. (2012, August 23). What Is Religious Humanism-Really?. Retrieved from http://www.centerforinquiry.net/blogs/entry/what_is_religious_humanism_–_really/.

[9] Too many to provide a comprehensive list of the organizations and individuals involved in this endeavour of theistic humanism.  However, these should provide sufficient information for the ideas contained within this extension and adaptation of humanism for the transformation of standardized theist beliefs and theological concepts.

[10] Please see Egan, D (2007, January 17). Preaching the Word of Atheism. Retrieved from http://thetyee.ca/Life/2007/01/12/Atheism/.

[11] Please see The Vancouver Sun (2006, April 6). 2) No God, no good. When it comes to intolerance, America’s a match for Afghanistan. Retrieved from http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/columnists/story.html?id=92ae2eb3-7d80-42b9-befb-7a207192f1f1&p=3.

[12] Please see CFI Canada (2015, May 12). Critical Links 2015/05/12: CFIC’s Updates and News on Science and Secularism. Retrieved from https://extraordinarybus.wordpress.com/2015/05/12/critical-links-20150512-cfics-updates-and-news-on-science-and-secularism/.

[13] Please see CFI Canada (2015, June 16). Critical Links 2015/06/16 CFIC News and Updates. Retrieved from https://extraordinarybus.wordpress.com/2015/06/16/critical-links-20150616-cfic-news-and-updates/.

[14] Even further backward in the historical record, David Hume in An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding (1748) – Section X, Of Miracles. Part I. – enunciates a synonymic principle, as follows:

Nothing is so convenient as a decisive argument of this kind, which must at least silence the most arrogant bigotry and superstition, and free us from their impertinent solicitations. I flatter myself, that I have discovered an argument of a like nature, which, if just, will, with the wise and learned, be an everlasting check to all kinds of superstitious delusion, and consequently, will be useful as long as the world endures. For so long, I presume, will the accounts of miracles and prodigies be found in all history, sacred and profane. Though experience be our only guide in reasoning concerning matters of fact; it must be acknowledged, that this guide is not altogether infallible, but in some cases is apt to lead us into errors. One, who in our climate, should expect better weather in any week of June than in one of December, would reason justly, and conformably to experience; but it is certain, that he may happen, in the event, to find himself mistaken. However, we may observe, that, in such a case, he would have no cause to complain of experience; because it commonly informs us beforehand of the uncertainty, by that contrariety of events, which we may learn from a diligent observation. All effects follow not with like certainty from their supposed causes. Some events are found, in all countries and all ages, to have been constantly conjoined together: Others are found to have been more variable, and sometimes to disappoint our expectations; so that, in our reasonings concerning matter of fact, there are all imaginable degrees of assurance, from the highest certainty to the lowest species of moral evidence. A wise man, therefore, proportions his belief to the evidence. In such conclusions as are founded on an infallible experience, he expects the event with the last degree of assurance, and regards his past experience as a full proof of the future existence of that event. In other cases, he proceeds with more caution: He weighs the opposite experiments: He considers which side is supported by the greater number of experiments: to that side he inclines, with doubt and hesitation; and when at last he fixes his judgement, the evidence exceeds not what we properly call probability. All probability, then, supposes an opposition of experiments and observations, where the one side is found to overbalance the other, and to produce a degree of evidence, proportioned to the superiority. A hundred instances or experiments on one side, and fifty on another, afford a doubtful expectation of any event; though a hundred uniform experiments, with only one that is contradictory, reasonably beget a pretty strong degree of assurance. In all cases, we must balance the opposite experiments, where they are opposite, and deduct the smaller number from the greater, in order to know the exact force of the superior evidence. [Emphasis, bolded, added.]

Please see Hume, D. (1748). An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding: Section X, Of Miracles. Part I.. Retrieved from https://www.gutenberg.org/files/9662/9662-h/9662-h.htm.

[15] Please see Hume, D. (1748). An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding: Section X, Of Miracles. Part I.. Retrieved from https://www.gutenberg.org/files/9662/9662-h/9662-h.htm.

[16] Please see O’Brien, P. (2014, August 12). On Atheists. Retrieved from http://www.companyofdisciples.com/on-atheists-by-pat-obrien-of-cfi-canada/.

[17] Divine attributes tend to emerge in the theological literature about an architect, creator, or designer to the universe.  Some include all-good, all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful, and so on.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Pat O’Brien (Part Three). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal [Online].March 2016; 10(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pat-obrien-part-three.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, March 1). An Interview with Pat O’Brien (Part Three). Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pat-obrien-part-three.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Pat O’Brien (Part Three). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A, March. 2016. <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pat-obrien-part-three>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An Interview with Pat O’Brien (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pat-obrien-part-three.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Pat O’Brien (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A (March 2016). www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pat-obrien-part-three.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Pat O’Brien (Part Three)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 10.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pat-obrien-part-three>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Pat O’Brien (Part Three)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 10.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pat-obrien-part-three.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Pat O’Brien (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 10.A (2016):March. 2016. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pat-obrien-part-three>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Pat O’Brien (Part Three) [Internet]. (2016, March); 10(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pat-obrien-part-three.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2016. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2016-02-22

An Interview with Pat O’Brien (Part Two)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 10.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Six)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: February 22, 2015

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2016

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,619

ISSN 2369-6885

Pat O'Brien.png

Abstract

An interview with Pat O’Brien. He discusses: earned positions on the board of the B.C. Humanist Association, as President of British Columbia Humanist Association, on the board of Humanist Canada, and as President of Humanist Canada; operation of the British Columbia Humanist Association at the provincial-scale; common problems in the midst of leadership at national and provincial magnitudes; personal and social fulfillment, and duties, necessitating involvement with grassroots initiatives and ambassadorship such as Center for Inquiry Canada and Atheist Alliance International; personal career as a Proper Master in film and television; conduct, duties, and responsibilities as the Board Vice-Chair for Center for Inquiry Canada; duties and responsibilities that come from influencing the public mind whilst holding an important position; and the importance of flagship publications.

Keywords: Atheist Alliance International, British Columbia Humanist Association, Center for Inquiry Canada, Humanist Canada, Pat O’Brien.

An Interview with Pat O’Brien (Part Two)[1],[2],[3],[4]

8. You earned positions including “board of the B.C. Humanist Association (BCHA), President of BCHA and then on the board of Humanist Canada (HC), eventually taking over as President of HC.”[5],[6],[7] HC, as an organization, exists within the philosophy of “education, reason, and compassion.”[8] With more depth, the organization defines itself:

Founded in 1968, Humanist Canada has its roots in the former Humanist Fellowship of Montreal. This fellowship was an organization of humanists that was founded in 1954 by Drs. R. K. Mishra, Ernest Poser, and Maria Jutta Cahn. Lord Bertrand Russell and Dr. Brock Chisholm were its first patrons.[9]

As the past president of Humanist Canada, your insight, from experience, into the membership involvements and activities, organizational structure and internal dynamics, theory and practice, positions and tasks, internal humanist membership sustainability and national public outreach, seems deep, comprehensive, and relevant to me.[10]  How does one run a large organization from the national scale?[11]

You don’t, you let it run itself. It has been said many times that trying to get Humanists to agree on something is like trying to herd cats. I learned early on that as a leader I could not rule from above, or make unilateral decisions. The membership is highly educated and smart they do not respond well to decrees or being told what to do or what position they should take on a matter so one learns to be inclusive, trying to reach consensus. Without going into too much detail, the reason I resigned was because I felt in a particular circumstance unilateral action was the best course to take and still believe I made the right decision, but it lead to me being forced to resign. In the end, my decision was upheld.

9. You held the presidency of the BCHA too.[12] How does one operate a provincial-scale organization?[13]

It is easier because you meet regularly with members, they know who you are and there tends to be more trust. Again though, the members are smart, sceptical people who will question everything so you have to not only know what you are talking about but must be willing to compromise. All Humanist groups function democratically and all decisions must be discussed and voted on at least the board level. The other thing about running a local group is that it is easier to plan and hold events. Most of the work that gets done even in a national organization is initiated and run by local groups.

10. What common problems emerge, and solutions require implementation, in the midst of leadership at the national and provincial magnitudes?[14],[15]

The biggest problem is fundraising. It is difficult to get Humanists to part with their money. We can’t offer eternal salvation so when we do fundraise it has to be a specific initiative. Even then, most Humanist living in Canada do not feel the need to be out there advertizing and being social activists, most are happy with weekly or monthly meetings where they discuss topics of interest. This does not require much money so the donations reflect this.

11. Your biographic information from CFI Canada concludes:

In the interim Pat was an ambassador for Atheist Alliance International, sitting briefly on their board. Pat is involved in many grassroots initiatives in his hometown of Vancouver where he has a successful career as a Props Master in the film and television industry. Pat is also an award winning documentary filmmaker.[16]

What personal and social fulfillment, and duties, necessitate involvement with grassroots initiatives and ambassadorship?[17]

I am someone who wants to make a difference in my community. I like being part of social change and I think we need more people like that who are willing to take on leadership roles to try and make our society better. I really do believe, and the evidence is on my side, that the world would be a better place with less religion. My goal is not to stamp out religion but to show people there is an alternative to living a full rewarding life that does not include believing in the unbelievable and hopefully they will see us as a suitable alternative.

12. What does “Props Master in the film and television industry,” personal career, implicate for you, e.g. tasks, responsibilities, projects involved in, capabilities and limitations, and so on?[18]

My job is what I do so I can afford to do the things I really enjoy such as being part of the Humanist/Skeptical community (and playing golf). I am also very lucky to have a job I really like. It is very rewarding to know that my work entertains people and allows them an escape from their daily lives.

13. You work for CFI Canada. Another secular organization, a registered educational charity, devoted to “educate and provide training to the public in the application of skeptical, secular, rational and humanistic enquiry through conferences, symposia, lectures, published works and the maintenance of a library.”[19] Your core position exists within the board, as Board Vice-Chair.[20] What conduct, duties, and responsibilities remain expected with this position within CFI Canada?[21],[22]

As the board member from BC I keep an eye on things in the west and try to engage the membership here. I also am the media representative in BC so if a story is in the news and they need the Humanist/Atheist side, I often will get the call. As Vice Chair, all that really means is that I take over the duties of the Chair if he or she is unavailable.

14. Your representation in the media emerges in numerous avenues internal and external, obscure and mainstream, pro and con, to CFI Canada, and Humanist Canada.[22],[23],[24],[25],[26],[27],[28],[29],[30],[31],[32],[33],[34],[35],[36],[37],[38],[39],[40],[41],[42],[43],[44] What duties and responsibilities come from influencing the public mind through the media, especially whilst holding an important position in an organization in the educational charity sector?

I think it is the most important thing I do. Communication is the key to understanding and I take my responsibility as a communicator very seriously. It sometimes means I have to tone down the message I would like to give, when one is on TV talking to the masses, one must be succinct and clear, without putting people off to the point where they turn the dial. It is a fine line because to many religious types my very existence as an atheist is offensive to them. So my job is show them that I am a regular person with some (I hope) interesting things to say, and if I can educate one person or show one person a new way of looking at an issue then I call that a win.

15. Many, many organizations, formal and informal, with concomitant publications exist for the distribution of principles and values interrelated with critical thinking, humanism, naturalism, and secularism.  For example, the Committee for Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (CSICOP, the old title)/The Committee for Skeptical Inquiry (CSI, the new title) publishes Skeptical Inquirer.[45],[46],[47] What importance do flagship publications, such as Skeptical Inquirer, have for the “no religious affiliation” individuals and groups?[48]

They are very important. It is vital that our point of view is out there in the public. Magazines, TV and radio programs are essential to both creating a sense of community and as a means of education, without being pedantic.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Board Vice-Chair, Center for Inquiry Canada (CFIC/CFI Canada); Past President, Humanist Canada; Past President, British Columbia Humanist Association.

[2] Individual Publication: February 22, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pat-obrien-part-two; Full Issue Publication: May 1, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pat-obrien-part-two.

[3] Bachelor of Science & Bachelor of Education, Science, Biology, and Education.

[4] Please see Trapper, J. (2011, October 10). Dr. Robert Buckman, renowned oncologist, comedian and Star columnist, dead at 63. Retrieved from http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2011/10/10/dr_robert_buckman_renowned_oncologist_comedian_and_star_columnist_dead_at_63.html.

[5] Please see Humanist Canada (2015). Humanist Canada. Retrieved from https://www.humanistcanada.ca/.

[6] Please see Twitter (Humanist Canada (2015). @Humanist_Canada. Retrieved from https://twitter.com/Humanist_Canada.

[7] Please see Twitter (Humanist Canada (2015). @Humanist_Canada. Retrieved from https://twitter.com/Humanist_Canada.

[8] Explicit statement of the values, mission, and vision, as follows:

Values Our key values are to uphold honesty, reason, critical thinking and cooperation in every facet of human interdependence. Mission We promote the separation of religion from public policy and foster the development of reason, compassion and critical thinking for all Canadians, through secular education and community support. Vision Our vision is a world where reason and compassion guide public policy and beliefs are respected— provided that they are compatible with the rights of others.

Please see Humanist Canada. (2015). Humanist Canada Brochure. Retrieved from https://www.humanistcanada.ca/images/docs/HC-brochure-2015.pdf.

[9] Please see Humanist Canada (2015). Humanist Canada. Retrieved from https://www.humanistcanada.ca/.

[10] Please see Humanist Canada (2015). Humanist Canada. Retrieved from https://www.humanistcanada.ca/.

[11] Please see British Columbia Humanist Association (2015). British Columbia Humanist Association. Retrieved from http://bchumanist.ca/.

[12] Please see British Columbia Humanist Association (2015). British Columbia Humanist Association. Retrieved from http://bchumanist.ca/.

[13] Please see Humanist Canada (2015). Humanist Canada. Retrieved from https://www.humanistcanada.ca/.

[14] Please see British Columbia Humanist Association (2015). British Columbia Humanist Association. Retrieved from http://bchumanist.ca/.

[15] Please see Center for Inquiry Canada (2015). CFI Canada Board of Directors. Retrieved from http://centreforinquiry.ca/about-us/cfi-canada-board-of-directors/

[16] Please see Atheist Alliance International (2015). Atheist Alliance International. Retrieved from https://www.atheistalliance.org/.

[17] Please see Atheist Alliance International (2015). Atheist Alliance International. Retrieved from https://www.atheistalliance.org/.

[18] Please see CFI Canada (2015). About Us. Retrieved from http://centreforinquiry.ca/about-us/.

[19] Please see Center for Inquiry Canada (2015). CFI Canada Board of Directors. Retrieved from http://centreforinquiry.ca/about-us/cfi-canada-board-of-directors/.

[20] Please see Adriaans, E. (2014, December 18). Center for Inquiry Canada Code of Conduct. Retrieved from http://centreforinquiry.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Centre-For-Inquiry-Canada-Code-of-Conduct-Dec-18th-2014.pdf.

[21] Some definitions within the Center for Inquiry Canada Code of Conduct define a board member as “community,” as follows, ““CFI Canada’s Community” means any and all clients, personnel, members, Board Members, Friends of the Centre, Councillors, donors, supporters and all those individuals and organizations who have a responsibility toward CFI Canada and an interest in its success.” In addition to this definition, other statements have value within in with respect to the position of board members.  In sections G and H.2., the Center for Inquiry Canada Code of Conduct: “A breach of the Code of Conduct is subject to disciplinary or legal action in accordance with applicable policies and procedures as approved by the Board of Directors from time to time. The nature of disciplinary action will take into account harm to the individual, harm to CFI Canada and its reputation, and whether or not there was an unequal power relationship. Disciplinary action includes dismissal, where circumstances warrant…H. Responsibilities 2. Members of the Board of Directors, Branch Directors, the National Executive Director and other Officers of CFI Canada are responsible for oversight, applying and implementing this policy in each of their respective jurisdictions.” In other words, a serious position with responsibilities for particular activities and, therefore, consequences for certain misconduct.

[22] Please see Global TV (n.d.). BC1- Atheist ad rejected in Vancouver. Retrieved from http://globalnews.ca/video/embed/1016280/.

[23] Note, the title of “Center for Enquiry Canada” in the Global TV interview provided a faulty title for the educational charity within the interview for O’Brien.  The correct title remains “Center for Inquiry Canada.”

[24] Please see Abbass, V. (2014, June 18). Pacific Spirit. Retrieved from http://www.canadianatheist.com/pacific-spirit/.

[25] Please see Johnson, P. (2014, June 12). Pacific Spirit: Atheists demand proof for God’s existence. Retrieved from http://www.vancourier.com/community/pacific-spirit-atheists-demand-proof-for-god-s-existence-1.1127233#sthash.ehr1flAN.dpuf.

[26] Please see The Agenda with Steve Paikin (2013, December 13). How to Get Atheism in Advertising. Retrieved from http://theagenda.tvo.org/blog/agenda-blogs/how-get-atheism-advertising.

[27] Please see CFI Canada (2012). If we raise $40,000 by December 31, 2012 a generous donor will match it!. Retrieved from http://action.centerforinquiry.net/site/MessageViewer?em_id=33841.0.  

[28] Please see Peat, D. (2009, March 6). Humanists see light at end of subway tunnel. Retrieved from http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2009/03/06/8647786-sun.html.

[29] Please see Canada Press (2009, March 6). More Godless Advertising. Retrieved from http://www.marketingmag.ca/advertising/more-godless-advertising-7384.

[30] Please see Egan, D (2007, January 17). Preaching the Word of Atheism. Retrieved from http://thetyee.ca/Life/2007/01/12/Atheism/.

[31] Please see The Drew Marshall Show (2009, March 7). Special Guests. Retrieved from http://drewmarshall.ca/show/090307.

[32] Please see Context with Lorna Dueck (2007, June 19). Atheism: Is Faith Stupid. Retrieved from http://www.contextwithlornadueck.com/episodes/atheism-is-faith-stupid.

[33] Please see Mcelheran, T. (2009, February 4). Group wants atheist ads on city buses. Retrieved from http://metronews.ca/news/vancouver/80494/group-wants-atheist-ads-on-city-buses/.

[34] Please see Randi, J. (2009, February 5). Next, They’ll Be Hunting Witches in Nova Scotia!. Retrieved from http://archive.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/424-next-theyll-be-hunting-witches-in-nova-scotia.html.

[35] Please see CBC News (2009, February 3). ‘Good without God’ ad campaign raises questions in Vancouver. Retrieved from http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/good-without-god-ad-campaign-raises-questions-in-vancouver-1.833983.

[36] Please see Kiely, B.J. (2009, January 25). Atheism II- Humanism. Retrieved from http://www.uce.ca/ministry/sermon_archive/other/20091025Atheism%20II-%20Humanism.pdf.

[37] Please see O’Brien, P. (2007, January 17). Restructuring HAC. Retrieved from http://www.americanhumanist.org/hnn/archives/?id=283&article=9.

[38] Please see O’Brien, P. (2006, August 2). Morality Into Wine. Retrieved from http://www.americanhumanist.org/hnn/archives/?id=254&article=1.

[39] Please see Rau, K. (2009, March 24). Religious believers less likely to notice own mistakes: study. Retrieved from http://www.dailyxtra.com/canada/religious-believers-less-likely-notice-mistakes-study-52764.

[40] Please see AsianPost (2009, February 19). Outloud! With Gurpreet Singh. Retrieved from http://www.southasianpost.com/article/2653-outloud-gurpreet-singh.html.

[41] Please see Akkad, O.E. (2009, April 10). This is your brain on religion. Retrieved from http://www.theglobeandmail.com/technology/science/this-is-your-brain-on-religion/article1149526/.

[42] Please see Laidlaw, S. (2008, march 15). Darwin exhibit survives thanks to unlikely backers. Retrieved from http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2008/03/15/darwin_exhibit_survives_thanks_to_unlikely_backers.html.

[43] Please see Tam, C. (2013, December 7). Atheism group says ad rejected by Vancouver billboard company. Retrieved from http://globalnews.ca/news/1016292/atheism-group-says-ad-rejected-by-vancouver-billboard-company/.

[44] Please see O’Brien, P. (2014, August 12). On Atheists. Retrieved from http://www.companyofdisciples.com/on-atheists-by-pat-obrien-of-cfi-canada/.

[45] Please see Frazier, K. (2006, December 4). ​It’s CSI Now, Not CSICOP.

[46] Please see The Committee for Skeptical Inquiry (2015). The Committee for Skeptical Inquiry. Retrieved from http://www.csicop.org/.

[47] Please see The Committee for Skeptical Inquiry (2015). Skeptical Inquirer. Retrieved from http://www.csicop.org/si.

[48] Please see The Committee for Skeptical Inquiry (2015). Skeptical Inquirer. Retrieved from http://www.csicop.org/si.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Pat O’Brien (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal [Online].February 2016; 10(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pat-obrien-part-two.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, February 15). An Interview with Pat O’Brien (Part Two). Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pat-obrien-part-two.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Pat O’Brien (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A, February. 2016. <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pat-obrien-part-two>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An Interview with Pat O’Brien (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pat-obrien-part-two.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Pat O’Brien (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A (February 2016). www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pat-obrien-part-two.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Pat O’Brien (Part Two)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 10.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pat-obrien-part-two>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Pat O’Brien (Part Two)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 10.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pat-obrien-part-two.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Pat O’Brien (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 10.A (2016):February. 2016. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pat-obrien-part-two>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Pat O’Brien (Part Two) [Internet]. (2016, February); 10(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/an-interview-with-pat-obrien-part-two.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2016. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2016-02-15

An Interview with Pat O’Brien (Part One)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 10.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Six)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: February 15, 2015

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2016

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,906

ISSN 2369-6885

Pat O'Brien.png

Abstract

An interview with Pat O’Brien. He discusses: geographic, cultural, linguistic, and family background; Center for Inquiry Canada and intellectual affirmation of skepticism; other moments that piqued interest in humanism, secularism, and other “-isms” associated with the skeptical worldview; Humanists see light at end of subway tunnel and the definition of humanism and formalized statements about the humanist worldview, and the big and small aspects of humanism; unique opportunities and representations for the sub-population of the “unaffiliated,” “no religious affiliation,” “no religion,” “none,” and so on, in British Columbia (B.C.), Canada; Without God, The Story of Secular Humanism and work with Dr. Robert Buckman; and the core message meant from Without God, The Story of Secular Humanism  and the apparent reaction to the final production.

Keywords: Center for Inquiry Canada, Dr. Robert Buckman, God, humanist, humanism, Pat O’Brien, Vancouver.

An Interview with Pat O’Brien (Part One) [1],[2],[3],[4]

*Please see the footnotes throughout the interview, and bibliography and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. In terms of geography, culture, and language, where does your family background reside?

Vancouver B.C.

2. Your biographic information from the Center for Inquiry Canada (CFIC/CFI Canada) website describes brief personal information about the pivotal moment for transformation into the skeptic mentality, as follows:

At the age of 8 when told “watched water never boils”, Pat put a pot of water on the stove and proved the adage wrong, thus began the life of a skeptic. Pat did not begin his official involvement in the secular/skeptical movement till 2001 when he was researching a documentary on Humanism.[5],[6],[7]

What other pivotal moments in early life stimulated intellectual affirmation of skepticism?[8]

I was raised a Catholic but from an early age I liked to ask questions and the church never seemed to have satisfactory answers. My education from grade 1 – 5 was in a Catholic school where we were taught by nuns and they did not have any answers either so it was a gradual realization that the teaching of the church, since they could not be backed up by facts, must be in some way wrong.

3. What about other moments which piqued interest in humanism, secularism, and other “-isms” with relative correspondence, or reasonable conceptual overlap, with aspects of the skeptical worldview?

I was always a contrarian. I liked to take the “other” side of an argument because it seemed the best way to learn about the argument. I never took someone’s word for anything, I always wanted proof. This is the basis of scepticism and although I did not know it at the time, that is the first step towards atheism.

4. In an article entitled Humanists see light at end of subway tunnel, you defined humanism, as follows:

Humanism is neither a religion nor a theology and the fact that a person can live a moral life, without deferring to any deity, has been recognized and accepted by religious and secular communities.[9],[10]

Organizations such as American Humanist Association, for instance, defined humanism within the Humanist Manifesto, in one of its three forms, in a similar frame of reference.[11],[12],[13],[14],[15] A suite of associations, societies, and organizations exist for the secular humanist community – which can create a chary sense in the less secular, less humanistic, and more religious – in British Columbia, other provinces, the territories, and the nation at large.[16],[17],[18],[19],[20],[21],[22],[23],[24],[25],[26],[27],[28] Of course, the major continental and international organizations for the secular humanist movement exist too.[29],[30],[31],[32],[33],[34],[35] These remain theories and collectives, though.  What does humanism look like in one’s real life to you – big and small aspects?

This will sound arrogant and is something I criticize the religious for but I believe that we are all Humanist at our core. I don’t think people get their morality from religion, I think religion gets its morality from humans and our shared evolutionary past that imprinted morality not on our hearts but in our DNA. So to answer the question, Humanism is the articulation of that morality that is inherent in most of us (there will always be the Clifford Olsen’s) and our shared humanity, our feeling of what is right and wrong is innate in us, in a naturalistic way. So unlike religion where one must constantly have their religious version of morality reinforced by prayer church attendance etc. we Humanists simply live a moral life without much thought to it most of the time.

5. What unique opportunities and representations exist for the sub-population of the “unaffiliated,” “no religious affiliation,” “no religion,” “none,” and so on, in British Columbia (B.C.), Canada?[36],[37],[38],[39],[40],[41],[42]

I think we have a lot to offer the general public, mostly in the area of science and the discovery of the natural world and how that creates a most beautiful way of looking at the world. Some, like Oprah, think atheists cannot have awe or wonder. I think the opposite is true because we see things as they really are, not as we would like them to be. The beauty of a rainbow is not enhanced by thinking a celestial painter did it, but by the understanding of light and refraction. To paraphrase one of the brightest physicists of the 20th century, Richard Feynman; is it not more awe inspiring to have a complete understanding of the way a phenomenon like a rainbow is created than to have an answer that is almost certainly wrong?

6. Your CFI Canada biography continues with elucidation of some professional film work:

The documentary “Without God, The Story of Secular Humanism” with Dr Robert Buckman aired on Vision TV, and CBC Newsworld.[43]

What instigated involvement with Dr. Robert Buckman for the filming, editing, and eventual production of Without God, The Story of Secular Humanism?[44],[45],[46],[47],[48],[49],[50],[51],[52],[53],[54],[55],[56] 

I was researching the documentary when I happened to come across the B.C. Humanist Association. I sent an email to the web site and got a reply from their board. I met with several of them who proved to be most helpful in the making of the film. It was one of them that suggested Rob. When I contacted him he was very excited about the project and jumped on immediately. We decided that he would be an excellent on air narrator as he had a lot of experience in front of the camera and with that one of the most influential relationships of my life began.

7. What core message did Dr. Robert Buckman and yourself want to come across with, and what seemed to emerge from the viewership in reaction to, the final product of Without God, The Story of Secular Humanism?[57],[58],[59],[60],[61],[62]

We wanted to show two things, first of all, what exactly a Humanist is and more importantly, why we are in fact as, or more moral, that the religious. It is well known that atheists have a bad reputation and we wanted people to know that we are just like every one else with the same basic hopes, dreams and sense of right and wrong.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Board Vice-Chair, Center for Inquiry Canada (CFIC/CFI Canada); Past President, Humanist Canada; Past President, British Columbia Humanist Association.

[2] Individual Publication Date: January 22, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com/2016/02/15/an-interview-with-pat-obrien-part-one ; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com/2016/02/15/an-interview-with-pat-obrien-part-one .

[3] Bachelor of Science & Bachelor of Education, Science, Biology, and Education.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Pat O’Brien.

[5] Please see Center for Inquiry Canada (2015). CFI Canada Board of Directors. Retrieved from http://centreforinquiry.ca/about-us/cfi-canada-board-of-directors/.

[6] According to the reportage of Pat Johnson, with partial quotations from O’Brien, in the article entitled Pacific Spirit: Atheists demand proof for God’s existence (2014):

When Pat O’Brien was eight or nine years old, his father told him that a watched pot never boils. “So I got a pot, put it on the stove, never took my eyes off it and it boiled,” says O’Brien. “From that moment on I was a skeptic. I wouldn’t believe anything until I actually saw it for myself.” Pretty soon, he was applying the same criteria to religion. . . . [Pat] is a board member of the Centre for Inquiry Canada, whose mission is to advance “skeptical, secular, rational and humanistic inquiry.

Please see Johnson, P. (2014, June 12). Pacific Spirit: Atheists demand proof for God’s existence. Retrieved from http://www.vancourier.com/community/pacific-spirit-atheists-demand-proof-for-god-s-existence-1.1127233#sthash.ehr1flAN.dpuf.

[7] Please see Johnson, P. (2014, June 12). Pacific Spirit: Atheists demand proof for God’s existence. Retrieved from http://www.vancourier.com/community/pacific-spirit-atheists-demand-proof-for-god-s-existence-1.1127233#sthash.ehr1flAN.dpuf.

[8] Please see Center for Inquiry Canada (2015). CFI Canada Board of Directors. Retrieved from http://centreforinquiry.ca/about-us/cfi-canada-board-of-directors/.

[9] Please see Peat, D. (2009, March 6). Humanists see light at end of subway tunnel. Retrieved from http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2009/03/06/8647786-sun.html.

[10] In addition to this definition of humanism, other terms within the canon of the unaffiliated with religion have definition by O’Brien; for instance, in On Atheists, he defined atheism in the following manner:

Atheist: noun – One who holds the position that the theists have not met their burden of proof…Atheism is simply one position on one issue; whether a god or gods exist. Atheism says nothing about a person; except that they are not convinced by the evidence the theists have shown, that a god exists.

Please see O’Brien, P. (2014, August 12). On Atheists. Retrieved from http://www.companyofdisciples.com/on-atheists-by-pat-obrien-of-cfi-canada/.

[11] The American Humanist Association Humanist Manifesto connects to the Humanist Manifesto I (1933), Humanist Manifesto II (1973), and Humanist Manifesto III (2003). The Humanist Manifesto III provides the cultural, ethical, philosophical, and scientific codification of the humanist worldview.  Each development – 1933, 1973, and 2003 – provides an incremental improvement, an accruement, of the ideological values for humanists with explicit statement for them. Here’s one segmented quotation for some perception of the four prior categorizations of humanist belief:

Humanism is a progressive philosophy of life that, without supernaturalism, affirms our ability and responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment that aspire to the greater good of humanity… Knowledge of the world is derived by observation, experimentation, and rational analysis. Humanists find that science is the best method for determining this knowledge as well as for solving problems and developing beneficial technologies… Humans are an integral part of nature, the result of unguided evolutionary change. Humanists recognize nature as self-existing… Humanists ground values in human welfare shaped by human circumstances, interests, and concerns and extended to the global ecosystem and beyond… Humanists long for and strive toward a world of mutual care and concern, free of cruelty and its consequences, where differences are resolved cooperatively without resorting to violence… Humanists are concerned for the well being of all, are committed to diversity, and respect those of differing yet humane views… The responsibility for our lives and the kind of world in which we live is ours and ours alone.

Please see American Humanist Association (2015). Humanist Manifesto III: Humanism and Its Aspirations. Retrieved from http://americanhumanist.org/Humanism/Humanist_Manifesto_III.

[11] Please see American Humanist Association (2015). Humanist Manifesto I. Retrieved from http://americanhumanist.org/Humanism/Humanist_Manifesto_I.

[12] Please see American Humanist Association (2015). Humanist Manifesto II. Retrieved from http://americanhumanist.org/Humanism/Humanist_Manifesto_II.

[13] Please see American Humanist Association (2015). Humanist Manifesto III: Humanism and Its Aspirations. Retrieved from http://americanhumanist.org/Humanism/Humanist_Manifesto_III.

[14] Please see Society of Ontario Freethinkers (2015). Our Humanist Principles. Retrieved from http://www.sofree.ca/our-humanist-principles/.

[15] Please see Secular Connexion Séculaire (2015). Goals and Principles. Retrieved from http://www.secularconnexion.ca/goals-principles.html.

[16] A non-exhaustive list of the national, provincial, and territorial unaffiliated with religion organizations under individuated banners of humanist, secular, and so on.

[17] Please see Ontario Humanist Society (2015). Ontario Humanist Society. Retrieved from http://ontariohumanists.ca/.

[18] Please see Humanist Association of Toronto (2015). Humanist Association of Toronto. Retrieved from http://humanisttoronto.blogspot.ca/.

[19] Please see British Columbia Humanist Association (2015). British Columbia Humanist Association. Retrieved from http://bchumanist.ca/.

[20] Please see Secular Connexion Séculaire (2015). Secular Connexion Séculaire. Retrieved from http://www.secularconnexion.ca/.

[21] Please see Society of Ontario Freethinkers (2015). Society of Ontario Freethinkers. Retrieved from http://www.sofree.ca/.

[22] Please see Vancouver Skeptics (2015). Vancouver Skeptics. Retrieved from http://vancouverskeptics.org/.

[23] Please see Canadian Secular Alliance (2015). About. Retrieved from http://secularalliance.ca/about/.

[24] Please see Center for Inquiry (2015). Center for Inquiry: Vancouver. Retrieved from http://www.cficanada.ca/vancouver.

[25] Please see Comox Valley Humanists (2015). Comox Valley Humanists. Retrieved from http://cvhumanists.org/.

[26] Please see Center for Inquiry (2015). Center for Inquiry: Okanagan. Retrieved from http://centreforinquiry.ca/author/cfi-okanagan/.

[27] Please see British Columbia Humanist Association (2015). Fraser Valley Atheists, Skeptics, and Humanists. Retrieved from http://bchumanist.ca/communities/fraser-valley/114-welcome-fraser-valley-humanists.

[28] Please see British Columbia Humanist Association (2015). Vancouver Island Humanists. Retrieved from http://bchumanist.ca/communities/oceanside.

[29] A non-exhaustive list of the international humanist, secular, and other organizations.

[30] Please see International Humanist and Ethical Union (2015). International Humanist and Ethical Union. Retrieved from http://iheu.org/.

[31] Please see Atheist Alliance International (2015). Atheist Alliance International. Retrieved from https://www.atheistalliance.org/.

[32] Please see The European Humanist Federation (2015). The European Humanist Federation. Retrieved from http://humanistfederation.eu/.

[33] Please see Rationalist International (2015). Rationalist International. Retrieved from http://www.rationalistinternational.net/.

[34] Please see International League of Humanists (2015). International League of Humanists. Retrieved from http://www.intlh.com/bh/.

[35] Please see Sunday Assembly (2015). Sunday Assembly. Retrieved from http://sundayassembly.com/.

[36] Bearing in mind, the global number of individuals in the unaffiliated categorization equates to about 16%.  The continental, North American, count comes to 17.1%.  The national, Canadian, count comes to 16%.  The provincial, British Columbian, quantity sits around 35.88% or ~35-36%. Please see following footnotes for appropriate bibliographic reference redirections.

[37] Those without affiliation with religion come with numerous self-identifications including agnostic, atheist, “bright,” “freethinker,” humanist, non-believer, non-religious, skeptic, and many others, with an emphasis on a novel definition, which includes many of the previous definitions in relation to religion, “unaffiliated.” Both national and international evidence attest to the comparable affiliation with religion, in December of 2012, to the Canadian quantification, in 2001, at ~16%, and the higher than global number with the province of BC’s affiliation with religion at ~35.88%. A BC “no religious affiliation” sub-population divided by the total BC population: 1,388,300/3,868,875=~35.88%.

PEW Research Center (2015, April 2). The Future of World Religions: Population Growth Projections, 2010-2050. Retrieved from http://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/religious-projections-2010-2050/.

[38] Please see PEW Research Center (2015, April 2). The Future Of World Religions: Population Growth Projections, 2010-2050: North America. Retrieved from http://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/north-america/.

[39] Please see British Columbia Humanist Association (2013, June 19). BC Religious and Secular Attitudes. Retrieved from http://bchumanist.ca/news/110-bc-religious-and-secular-attitudes-poll.

[40] Please see PEW Research Center (2012, December). The Global Religious Landscape. Retrieved from http://www.pewforum.org/files/2014/01/global-religion-full.pdf.

[41] Please see PEW Research Center (2012, December 12). The Global Religious Landscape. Retrieved from http://www.pewforum.org/2012/12/18/global-religious-landscape-exec/.

[42] Please see Statistics Canada (2005, January 25). Population by religion, by province and territory (2001 Census): (Alberta, British Columbia, Yukon). Retrieved from http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/demo30c-eng.htm.

[43] Please see Statistics Canada (2005, January 25). Population by religion, by province and territory (2001 Census): (Alberta, British Columbia, Yukon). Retrieved from http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/demo30c-eng.htm.

[44] Please see IMDB (2015). Rob Buckman. Retrieved from http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0118721/bio?ref_=nm_ov_bio_sm.

[45] Duly note, the late Dr. Robert Buckman held the presidency of the Humanist Association of Canada in 2004. A doctor and author with a specialty in oncology, or the study and treatment of tumors. He died in sleep during a transatlantic flight.

[46] Please see Langan, F. (October 11, 2011). Renowned oncologist Robert Buckman dies at age 63. Retrieved from http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/renowned-oncologist-robert-buckman-dies-at-63/article2198113/?utm_medium=Feeds%3A%20RSS%2FAtom&utm_source=National&utm_content=2198113.

[47] Please see Jones, T. (2011, October 12). Rob Buckman Obituary. Retrieved from http://www.theguardian.com/books/2011/oct/12/rob-buckman.

[48] Please see The Times (2011, October 15). Rob Buckman. Retrieved from http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/obituaries/article3194806.ece.

[49] Please see Q&Q Staff (2000, October). Robert Buckman hits the funny bone. Retrieved from http://www.quillandquire.com/authors/robert-buckman-hits-the-funny-bone/.

[50] Please see The Telegraph (2011, October 30). Rob Buckman. Retrieved from http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/medicine-obituaries/8985526/Rob-Buckman.html.

[51] Please see [DocAlTulonge] (2007, August 9). Without God – Part 1 of 5. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7IoSDKBAMU.

[52] Please see [DocAlTulonge] (2007, August 9). Without God – Part 2 of 5. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8BAgfVlbbA.

[53] Please see [DocAlTulonge] (2007, August 9). Without God – Part 3 of 5. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dN0nKsiY7qA.

[54] Please see [DocAlTulonge] (2007, August 9). Without God – Part 4 of 5. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqIEBY1Gsi0.

[55] Please see [DocAlTulonge] (2007, August 9). Without God – Part 5 of 5. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LG1-yGZJk1Y.

[56] Duly note, one obituary written by the famed Terry Jones of Monty Python.  Therefore, a query in direct relation to instigations brings the fame of popular British comedy, such as Monty Python, into the fray with Dr. Robert Buckman, a comedian; not an accident for this phraseology.

[57] Please see IMDB (2015). Rob Buckman. Retrieved from http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0118721/bio?ref_=nm_ov_bio_sm.

[58] Please see [DocAlTulonge] (2007, August 9). Without God – Part 1 of 5. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7IoSDKBAMU.

[59] Please see [DocAlTulonge] (2007, August 9). Without God – Part 2 of 5. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8BAgfVlbbA.

[60] Please see [DocAlTulonge] (2007, August 9). Without God – Part 3 of 5. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dN0nKsiY7qA.

[61] Please see [DocAlTulonge] (2007, August 9). Without God – Part 4 of 5. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqIEBY1Gsi0.

[62] Please see [DocAlTulonge] (2007, August 9). Without God – Part 5 of 5. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LG1-yGZJk1Y.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Pat O’Brien (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal [Online].February 2016; 10(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/2016/02/15/an-interview-with-pat-obrien-part-one .

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, February 15). An Interview with Pat O’Brien (Part One). Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/2016/02/15/an-interview-with-pat-obrien-part-one .

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Pat O’Brien (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A, February. 2016. <www.in-sightjournal.com/2016/02/15/an-interview-with-pat-obrien-part-one >.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An Interview with Pat O’Brien (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A. www.in-sightjournal.com/2016/02/15/an-interview-with-pat-obrien-part-one .

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Pat O’Brien (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A (February 2016). www.in-sightjournal.com/2016/02/15/an-interview-with-pat-obrien-part-one .

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Pat O’Brien (Part One)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 10.A. Available from: <www.in-sightjournal.com/2016/02/15/an-interview-with-pat-obrien-part-one >.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Pat O’Brien (Part One)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 10.A., www.in-sightjournal.com/2016/02/15/an-interview-with-pat-obrien-part-one .

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Pat O’Brien (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 10.A (2016):February. 2016. Web. <www.in-sightjournal.com/2016/02/15/an-interview-with-pat-obrien-part-one >.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Pat O’Brien (Part One) [Internet]. (2016, February); 10(A). Available from: www.in-sightjournal.com/2016/02/15/an-interview-with-pat-obrien-part-one .

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2016-02-08

An Interview with Professor Junye Wang (Part Three)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 10.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Six)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: February 8, 2016

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2016

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,365

ISSN 2369-6885

Professor Junye Wang

Abstract

An interview with Professor Junye Wang. He discusses: Modelling nitrous oxide emissions from grazed grassland systems (2012); Pressure drop and flow distribution in a mini-hydrocyclone group: UU-type parallel arrangement (2013); utilization of findings for commercial and industrial applications; Barriers of scaling-up fuel cells: Cost, durability and reliability (2015); most probable future for commercialization and industrialization of fuel cells in Athabasca, Alberta, and Canada; Theory and practice of flow field designs for fuel cell scaling-up: A critical review (2015); inter-relationship of CAIP Research Chair position, the Athabasca River Basin and Alberta, and the commercialization and industrialization of productions such as fuel cells from the laboratory scale of production; environmental impacts of the oil sands; environmental impacts of hydraulic fracturing; and top three energy sources for the next 10, 25, and 100 years.

Keywords: Alberta, Athabasca River Basin, Athabasca University, CAIP Research Chair, commercial, fuel cells, industrial, LinkedIn, oil sands, Professor Junye Wang.

An Interview with Professor Junye Wang (Part Three)[1],[2],[3],[4] 

*Please see the footnotes throughout the interview, and bibliography and citation style listing after the interview.*

24. In Modelling nitrous oxide emissions from grazed grassland systems (2012), the paper describes the grazed grassland systems and their role in the global carbon cycle in addition to influence on global climate change based in the identical emissions types from Development and application of a detailed inventory framework for estimating nitrous oxide and methane emissions from agriculture (2011) – namely: nitrous oxide and methane.[5] You, and others, note the uncertainty involved in the parameterisation of process-based, or dynamic, models for grazed grassland systems, which emerges out of the enormous biodiversity of flora and fauna in these grassland systems that are grazed. Insofar as the descriptive models are concerned, the dynamic models work in the United Kingdom, the DeNitrification-DeComposition (DNDC) or the “process-based biogeochemistry model” was used there.[6] What did the paper discover about the observations and its correspondence with the model?

The IPCC inventory methodology (Question 19 and 20) is a practical, first-order approach that uses simple default emission factors (EFs) and addresses the anthropogenic effects on sources and sinks of GHGs using a series of default EFs. However, emissions from livestock depend on a range of factors, such as animal type, their weight and age, proportion of time spent grazing, type of animal housing, type of manure and its storage and application, weather and soil type. The variability of all these control EFs, both in time and space, results in very heterogeneous GHG emissions. To contribute towards more reliable estimates of N2O emissions from grazing systems, the process-based model and its corresponding validation technology in the UK were developed to provide a useful tool for integrating our knowledge of key processes and driving variables to estimate N and C trace gas emissions from grazed pastures.

The model generally captured the timing and intensity of N2O pulses following rainfall, N fertilizer application or grazing events. The results imply that the external parameters used as inputs to run UK-DNDC take into account the main factors dominating variations of N2O emissions from the grazed plots. However, discrepancies exist between the modelled results and observations. For example, the model missed some observed high peaks of N2O emissions, especially the high peaks related to the high fertilizer rates and grazing intensity at the Cae Banadl site. Future improvements in the scientific processes of the model could provide opportunities to reduce the uncertainties in modelling N2O emissions from grazing systems. Understanding the uncertainties or challenges is critically important for us to accurately address questions regarding the impact of land-management practices and future climate changes on GHG emissions.

25. Pressure drop and flow distribution in a mini-hydrocyclone group: UU-type parallel arrangement (2013) describes miniature hydro-cyclones based on the advantages for increased “separation precision, low cost, easy operation and high stability,” where the single or multiple mini-hydro-cyclones need linkage in parallel for industrial utilization.[7] Of course, the article describes the great difficulty in the development of parallel single and multiple miniature hydro-cyclones for industrial application. The paper provides a general mathematical model for these parallel miniature hydro-cyclones known as the UU–type parallel mini-hydro-cyclone group.[8] What did the results of the research show about the parallelization of the UU-type?

Hydrocyclone separation technology has been widely applied in petroleum refining, petrochemical industry, coal liquefaction, coal separation, natural gas purification, methanol-to-olefin conversion, mineral processing, textile and pulp, and other environmental industries. Miniature hydrocyclones have received increasing attention due to their advantages of higher separation precision, low cost, easy operation, and high stability. However, because of small treatment capacity of a single mini-hydrocyclone, numerous mini-hydrocyclones need to be connected in parallel to meet the requirements of industrial scale treatments. Such a system of numerous mini-hydrocyclones in parallel connection can meet the requirement of large scale of industrial applications and at the same time achieve its maximum efficiency of separation. This is another example of repeated units that the performance of a successful hydrocyclone is repeated by all other hydrocyclones in the system. Under the ideal operating conditions, every mini-hydrocyclone separation efficiency is similar as other hydrocyclones and the efficiency of the system is the highest. This paper extended the theory of flow distribution in manifolds into the more complex system of parallel miniature hydro-cyclones known as the UU–type parallel mini-hydro-cyclone group. The results demonstrate the capability of the present model to improve the separation efficiency and to meet treatment capacity for large-scale industrial applications.

26. How might this become utilized for commercial and industrial applications?[9]

The UU-type hydrocyclone group has been used successfully for many fields, such as wastewater treatment of delayed coking, washing soil contaminated by a variety of heavy metals and radioactive contaminants, separation of animal and microbial cells, and the recycling of sewage slurry with alkali and sulfur in many industrial projects in China.

27. Barriers of scaling-up fuel cells: Cost, durability and reliability (2015) describes the foundation of the fuel cell from 170 years ago in addition to its present status, industrially, as “fledgling,” and the mainstream nature of the technology is, apparently, nil.[10]The article poses some problems with respect to the commercialization and industrialization of fuels cells:

Why has scaling-up of fuel cells failed so often when many researchers have stated their successes in the small scale? Why do fuel cell stacks have lower durability, reliability and robustness than their individual cells? Could investments of a hydrogen fueling infrastructure stimulate advancements in the key issues of durability, reliability and robustness and substantially reduce fuel cell costs?[11]

How did the paper answer each query?

The immediate aim of this paper was to stimulate debate on the open issues of fuel cell technology, and to propose changes for improvement. Unless one understands the challenges of commercialization, there is little chance of meeting them. In this paper, I analyzed and confronted these critical questions to address the challenges of scaling-up technologies and identify key barriers.  Further, root causes for the challenges of durability, reliability and robustness of fuel cells were analyzed.  I elaborated on why durability and reliability of fuel cells are the biggest technical barriers to commercialization rather than establishing hydrogen fueling infrastructures. Future opportunities for the commercialization of fuel cells have been discussed with recommendations for change of priorities. An integrated approach is required for the fuel cell technology to substantially improve the durability and reliability of fuel cells and reduce their costs. I examine options and suggest a procedure for change to ensure that scaling-up targets for durability and reliability are met.

28. What seems like the most probable future for commercialization and industrialization of fuel cells in Athabasca, Alberta, and Canada?

Fuel cell technologies have clear advantages of high efficiency, low emission and low noise over conventional engines, such as internal combustion (IC) engines and gas turbines. High efficiency means a low bill and low emissions. If the reliability and durability of fuel cells are comparable to IC engines or boilers, many end-users will choose the low bill engines even if a little bit of high capital. Particularly, if consider environmental-friendly, more and more end-users will choose the new technologies. Therefore, as a core technology of future engine and energy, fuel cells will play a pivotal role in revolutionizing the way we power our world; offering cleaner, more-efficient alternatives to the IC engine in vehicles and gas turbines or coal fired boilers and steam turbines at distributed power generating stations.

29. Finally, Theory and practice of flow field designs for fuel cell scaling-up: A critical review(2015) demarcates the laboratory and industrial scale fuels cells, akin to some problems involved with the commercialization and industrialization described in the earlier articles, and the scaling upwards of the “throughput, operating lifetime, cost, reliability and efficiency.”[12] How does this article tackle these issues?

As an assembly of repeated units, the maximum power output of a stack should ideally be a linear sum of all cells in the stack and the lifetime, reliability and durability of a stack are determined by its worst individual cell. Although there are various outward appearances of scaling-up failures, such as water, heat and material issues, the failure of scaling-up is because of poor designs, leading to uneven gas intake of each cell in the stack due to uneven flow distribution. The performance degradation or failure of scaling-up is essentially due to some channels in a cell or some cells in a stack deviating from their design conditions due to an uneven gas intake distribution. As long as uneven flow distribution and pressure drop exceeds its operating windows, there will be a series of deteriorations, leading to an uneven chemical reaction. The uneven chemical reaction is the main cause of uneven water, heat, and current productions. An uneven heat production leads also to a heterogeneous distribution of temperature and thermal stress, an important indicator of duration and life of the cell. This deviation can significantly exceed the capacity of water removal and heat diffusion in a channel or a cell, leading eventually to larger issues, such as flooding, drying, and hotspots. This review addresses two key barriers facing engineers in flow field designs of fuel cells. One is how to find an optimal combination with high performance (high uniformity and low pressure drop) from thousands upon thousands of combinations among configurations, channel and header shapes, and flow conditions (pressure, flow rate, temperature and humidity). Another is to assess how far a fuel cell is from its optimal/given operating conditions and how a flow field design can be improved to meet specific operating ranges. Flow field designs are a strategic solution and provide a major opportunity to improve the durability and reliability of large scale stacks. To this end, remarkable progresses in the theory and tool of flow field designs have been achieved to establish a direct and explicit relationship of configurations, structures, flow conditions and performance that can be used to evaluate different design alternatives regarding the various structural and flow conditions with respect to performance and predictive capability. All these studies demonstrate the possibility of designs for fuel cell configurations to achieve an optimal performance, reliability, and durability of fuel cell scaling-up in terms of good flow distribution, low pressure drop and transient response through the four characteristic parameters.

30. What appears to inter-relate the CAIP Research Chair position, the Athabasca River Basin and Alberta, and the commercialization and industrialization of productions such as fuel cells from the laboratory scale of production?

A river basin such as the Athabasca River Basin (ARB) is a complex system which consists of terrestrial and aquatic systems. All processes of physics, chemistry, biology and society interact at different scales but such a system is artificially separated into different components according to their disciplines. This artificial separation is not due to the essence of the system but the limitation of our knowledge and understanding. In fact, a river basin has no clear boundaries of different disciplines. It is clear that such an analysis of the real system requires the multidisciplinary and interdisciplinary research and integration. However, it is unclear which discipline should be included or which discipline could definitely not be related to the complex system. This may be called their scientific identity crisis. Knowledge from other disciplines may make an important contribution to a river basin research. As you may know, engineering has provided research instruments and equipment for the development of many disciplines, such as chemistry, biology and society. Fuel cells are a type of energy devices but they can be developed for a specific instrumentation. Here, the biogeochemical processes in soil architecture are at the micro-scale. Soil pores permit the coexistence of air, chemicals such as nutrients, and water essential to soil microbial activities. Pore and channel structures determine how easily microbes can extract water and nutrients, and the rate of diffusion of nutrients and water into and out of the soil architecture. However, it is difficult to measure the pore-scale processes in the below ground using the conventional laboratory and field experiments because that requires very high resolution. Therefore, a specially designed microreactor has potentials to enable systematical tests for complex interactions of microbial and nutrients in porous media. For example, microbial fuel cells are commonly used for wastewater treatment or biosensors. Fuel cells are a special type of microreactor. Their theory can be fundamental to design special microreactors or microbial fuel cells for measurement of pore scale processes. This technology may deepen our understanding of soil processes; findings and knowledge at the micro-scale will be used to develop and improve the large-scale CAIP modelling framework of integrated terrestrial and aquatic systems. The goals and the evolution of this CAIP program have led to a growing integration of our research with that which is being undertaken by other researchers, while at the same time providing a stimulus for, and a new perspective on, the work on current issues in watershed management which is being carried out in the program.

31. What remain the environmental impacts of the oil sands?

Extraction of oil and gas from oil sands, are often associated with industrial processes.  Wastewater and tailings can be generated in large quantities that contain constituents that are potentially harmful to human health and the environment. Cumulative effects can last hundreds of years if without appreciate remediation and reclamation.

32. What remain the environmental impacts of hydraulic fracturing?

Development of hydraulic fracking, from seismic and core hole exploration, production well pads, roads and pipelines, can create significant disturbance to the forest and grassland, which can negatively impact biodiversity of animals and plants. A growing number of active wells and inactive and abandoned wells are incurring significant environmental impacts because of the potential dangers of well leaching and spill from flow-back, such as contamination of groundwater, methane pollution and its impact on climate change and air pollution, exposure to toxic chemicals, blowouts due to gas explosion, waste disposal and large volume water use in water-deficient regions. This potentially harmful wastewater and gas creates a need for appropriate wastewater management infrastructure and practices. There are also major knowledge gaps in how the flow-back and leaching pollutants will degrade and diffuse through the biogeochemical and hydrological processes above and below ground once they are inputted to a site or a watershed.

33. What seem like the top three energy sources for the next 10, 25, and 100 years?

In the next 10 years, fossil and nuclear energy will still be dominant. In next 25 years, renewable energy will increase gradually their share with fossil and nuclear energy. Finally, renewable energy will replace fossil and nuclear energy in the future.

Thank you for your time, Professor Wang.

Bibliography

  1. Huang, C., Wang, J., Wang, J., Chen, C., & Wang, H. (2013). Pressure drop and flow distribution in a mini-hydrocyclone group: UU-type parallel arrangement.Separation & Purification Technology, 103139-150. doi:10.1016/j.seppur.2012.10.030
  2. Junye, W., & Geoffrey H., P. (2009). Flow simulation in a complex fluidics using three turbulence models and unstructured grids.International Journal Of Numerical Methods For Heat & Fluid Flow, 19(3/4), 484-500.
  3. LinkedIn. (2015). LinkedIn. Retrieved from https://www.linkedin.com/.
  4. Wang, J. (2015). Barriers of scaling-up fuel cells: Cost, durability and reliability.Energy, 80509-521. doi:10.1016/j.energy.2014.12.007.
  5. Wang, J. (2011). Theory of flow distribution in manifolds.Chemical Engineering Journal, 168(3), 1331-1345. doi:10.1016/j.cej.2011.02.050
  6. Wang, J., Cardenas, L. M., Misselbrook, T. H., & Gilhespy, S. (2011). Development and application of a detailed inventory framework for estimating nitrous oxide and methane emissions from agriculture.Atmospheric Environment, 45(7), 1454-1463. doi:10.1016/j.atmosenv.2010.12.014
  7. Wang, J., Cardenas, L. M., Misselbrook, T. H., Cuttle, S., Thorman, R. E., & Li, C. (2012). Modelling nitrous oxide emissions from grazed grassland systems.Environmental Pollution, 162223-233. doi:10.1016/j.envpol.2011.11.027
  8. Wang, J., & Wang, H. (2012). Discrete approach for flow field designs of parallel channel configurations in fuel cells.International Journal Of Hydrogen Energy, 37(14), 10881-10897. doi:10.1016/j.ijhydene.2012.04.034
  9. Wang, J., Zhang, X., Bengough, A. G., & Crawford, J. W. (2005). Domain-decomposition method for parallel lattice Boltzmann simulation of incompressible flow in porous media.Physical Review. E, Statistical, Nonlinear, And Soft Matter Physics, 72(1 Pt 2), 016706.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Professor and CAIP Chair, Science and Technology, Athabasca University.

[2] Individual Publication Date: February 8, 2016 at http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/02/08/an-interview-with-professor-junye-wang-part-three/; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2016 at http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/02/08/an-interview-with-professor-junye-wang-part-three/.

[3] Ph.D. (1993 – 1996), Chemical Engineering and Mechanical Engineering, East China University of Science and Technology; M.Sc. (1986 – 1989), Aerospace, Aeronautical and Astronautical Engineering, Harbin Shipbuilding Engineering Institute.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Professor Junye Wang.

[5] Please see Wang, J., Cardenas, L. M., Misselbrook, T. H., Cuttle, S., Thorman, R. E., & Li, C. (2012). Modelling nitrous oxide emissions from grazed grassland systems. Environmental Pollution, 162223-233. doi:10.1016/j.envpol.2011.11.027

[6] Please see Wang, J., Cardenas, L. M., Misselbrook, T. H., Cuttle, S., Thorman, R. E., & Li, C. (2012). Modelling nitrous oxide emissions from grazed grassland systems. Environmental Pollution, 162223-233. doi:10.1016/j.envpol.2011.11.027

[7] Please see Huang, C., Wang, J., Wang, J., Chen, C., & Wang, H. (2013). Pressure drop and flow distribution in a mini-hydrocyclone group: UU-type parallel arrangement. Separation & Purification Technology, 103139-150. doi:10.1016/j.seppur.2012.10.030

[8] Please see Huang, C., Wang, J., Wang, J., Chen, C., & Wang, H. (2013). Pressure drop and flow distribution in a mini-hydrocyclone group: UU-type parallel arrangement. Separation & Purification Technology, 103139-150. doi:10.1016/j.seppur.2012.10.030

[9] Please see Huang, C., Wang, J., Wang, J., Chen, C., & Wang, H. (2013). Pressure drop and flow distribution in a mini-hydrocyclone group: UU-type parallel arrangement. Separation & Purification Technology, 103139-150. doi:10.1016/j.seppur.2012.10.030

[10] Please see Wang, J. (2015). Barriers of scaling-up fuel cells: Cost, durability and reliability. Energy, 80509-521. doi:10.1016/j.energy.2014.12.007.

[11] Please see Wang, J. (2015). Barriers of scaling-up fuel cells: Cost, durability and reliability. Energy, 80509-521. doi:10.1016/j.energy.2014.12.007.

[12] Please see Wang, J. (2015). Theory and practice of flow field designs for fuel cell scaling-up: A critical review. Applied Energy,157: 640-663. doi:10.1016/j.apenergy.2015.01.032

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Professor Junye Wang (Part Three). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal [Online]. February 2016; 10(A). Available from: http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/02/08/an-interview-with-professor-junye-wang-part-three/.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, February 8). An Interview with Professor Junye Wang (Part Three). Retrieved from http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/02/08/an-interview-with-professor-junye-wang-part-three/.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Professor Junye Wang (Part Three). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A, February. 2016. <http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/02/08/an-interview-with-professor-junye-wang-part-three/.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An Interview with Professor Junye Wang (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A.http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/02/08/an-interview-with-professor-junye-wang-part-three/.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Professor Junye Wang (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A (February 2016). http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/02/08/an-interview-with-professor-junye-wang-part-three/.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Professor Junye Wang (Part Three)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 10.A. Available from: <http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/02/08/an-interview-with-professor-junye-wang-part-three/>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Professor Junye Wang (Part Three)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 10.A., http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/02/08/an-interview-with-professor-junye-wang-part-three/.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Professor Junye Wang (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 10.A (2016):February. 2016. Web. <http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/02/08/an-interview-with-professor-junye-wang-part-three/>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Professor Junye Wang (Part Three) [Internet]. (2016, February); 10(A). Available from: http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/02/08/an-interview-with-professor-junye-wang-part-three/.

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© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2016. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2016-02-01

An Interview with Professor Junye Wang (Part Two)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 10.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Six)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: February 1, 2016

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2016

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,514

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

An interview with Professor Junye Wang. He discusses: most effective means of teaching students through an online education; benefits to the professor-researcher; LinkedIn self-description and breadth of experience brought to Athabasca University; unifying theme for select research articles; Domain-decomposition method for parallel lattice Boltzmann simulation of incompressible flow in porous media (2005); pragmatic implications for implementation to research on the Athabasca River Basin; Flow simulation in a complex fluidics using three turbulence models and unstructured grids (2009); Development and application of a detailed inventory framework for estimating nitrous oxide and methane emissions from agriculture (2011); extrapolations about average annual emissions in the United Kingdom 2011 to the present and in the next decade; Theory of flow distribution in manifolds (2011); greater generality create more or less functionality; Discrete approach for flow field designs of parallel channel configurations in fuel cells (2012); and Modelling nitrous oxide emissions from grazed grassland systems (2012).

Keywords: Athabasca River Basin, Athabasca University, CAIP Research Chair, LinkedIn, Professor Junye Wang.

An Interview with Professor Junye Wang (Part Two)[1],[2],[3],[4]

 *Please see the footnotes throughout the interview, and bibliography and citation style listing after the interview.*

12. What is the most effective means of teaching students through an online institution such as Athabasca University?

E-learning, digital course, and distance learning has been very important part of higher education. An online course could aim at unlimited participation and open access via the web. In addition to traditional course materials such as filmed lectures, readings, and problem sets, a massive open online course can provide interactive user forums to support community interactions between students, professors, and teaching tutors. AU is internationally a leader in open and distance education. AU is dedicated to the removal of barriers that restrict access to and success in university-level study and to increasing equality of educational opportunity for adult learners worldwide through widely researched development in distance education, such as mobile learning, multi-media, and online activities.

13. What benefits come to the professor-researcher such as yourself?

My basic research is on multi-scale and multidisciplinary modelling. The CAIP program provides long-term funding so that I can focus on development of an ambitious framework: the modelling framework of integrated terrestrial and aquatic systems.

14. According to LinkedIn, circa 2015, you self-describe, as follows:

Junye’s research mainly focus on energy, environment and sustainability. [He] has over 30 year experience of multi-scale and multidisciplinary modeling and is internationally recognized as a leader in energy, environment and sustainability. His research program is aimed at integrating agroecosystem, land use change and Geographic Information System (GIS) to assess environmental impacts of expanding biogas, bioenergy crops and land use change with emphasis on their interactions. He has developed various modeling and simulation of various physical, chemical and biological systems using various numerical and empirical approaches, such as lattice Boltzmann method (LBM) and computational fluid dynamics (CFD) and agroecosystem modelling (IPCC and process-based approaches) with a broad range of applications, such as agroecosystems, soil carbon sequestration, greenhouse gas emission and mitigation, nutrient cycling, water and hydrology, fuel cells/microbial fuel cells, thermofluid systems, porous media and bioenergy. His researches were highlighted by governments and organisations, such as European Commission in Science for Environment Policy, Earth Emphasis and Renewable Energy Global Innovation. He looks to expand capacity of agroecosystem modeling and computational sustainability to develop an integrated framework for assessment of environmental impacts of unconventional oil and gas (oil sands and hydraulic fracturing) production on agroecosystem and identify key factors of the cumulative effects for watershed management across Alberta and Canada. He has authored about 50 refereed journal papers and serves associate editor and editorial board member of several international journals. He is a reviewer of papers for about 40 journals and a reviewer of proposals and final reports for three research councils in the UK (EPSRC, NERC and ESRC).[5]

What does this breadth of experience bring to the educational and research work at Athabasca University?

A river basin is a complex system of physical, chemical and biological processes. Any single method is insufficient to build such an ambitious research hub and infrastructure. It is necessary to integrate multiple approaches and disciplines for establishing a relationship between physical, chemical and biological processes that reflects real-world problems. I have the unique background and experience of various modelling methods, from high-resolution numerical approaches such as the lattice Boltzmann method (LBM) and computational fluid dynamics (CFD) (e.g., PHYSICA multi-physics package and the Rolls-Royce HYDRA CFD code) to process-based models (e.g., DNDC and Roth-C). As a professional modeller, I have a strong experience of a variety of numerical methods and an exceptional ability to select the most suitable approach for a specific real-world problem and to integrate numerical methods for their mutual enhancement. Thus, my expertise and experience make it easier to adopt a whole systems approach and multidisciplinary collaboration to study dynamic interactions of nutrients, water, energy, pollutants, human activities and land-use management in river basin research. On the other hand, my experience and expertise in multidisciplinary and interdisciplinary integration and collaboration, can promote research-driven teaching and learning at AU. A cutting-edge research usually requires students to face various challenges. Thus, it is an excellent opportunity for students to acquire skills of critical thinking and problem-solving through the real problems-driven learning.

15. You have authored a number of articles including Domain-decomposition method for parallel lattice Boltzmann simulation of incompressible flow in porous media(2005),Flow simulation in a complex fluidics using three turbulence models and unstructured grids (2009), Development and application of a detailed inventory framework for estimating nitrous oxide and methane emissions from agriculture (2011), Theory of flow distribution in manifolds (2011), Modelling nitrous oxide emissions from grazed grassland systems (2012), Discrete approach for flow field designs of parallel channel configurations in fuel cells (2012), Pressure drop and flow distribution in a mini-hydrocyclone group: UU-type parallel arrangement (2013), Barriers of scaling-up fuel cells: Cost, durability and reliability (2015), and Theory and practice of flow field designs for fuel cell scaling-up: A critical review (2015)[6],[7],[8],[9],[10],[11],[12],[13],[14] Before exploration of these particular articles, what core theme unites these research articles, and, more generally, their respective topics and sub-topics?

These articles are on various topics from chemical engineering and energy, to environment and biogeochemical processes. A core theme is on energy, environment and sustainability. The world consists of fluid and solid. Despite very different phenomena in the real world, they are all essentially interactions between fluids, solids or fluid and solid, which are controlled by three transports (mass, energy and momentum) and two reactions (chemical and biological). These articles are to establish relationships between the three transports and the two reactions for different real-world problems using various analytical and numerical methods.

16. Domain-decomposition method for parallel lattice Boltzmann simulation of incompressible flow in porous media(2005) describes the lattice Boltzmann method for the simulation of flow in porous media, and a “cell-based domain-decompositions method for the parallel lattice Boltzmann simulation of flow in porous media.”[15] It relates to parallel or high performance computation. What are the advantages in this method? How was this cell-based domain-decompositions method utilized in this paper?

A personal computer does not have capacities to complete a large scale simulation in time. Parallel computation is a type of computation in which a big job of simulation is divided uniformly into many smaller ones. Then, these smaller jobs are distributed on many CPUs. Thus, many calculations are carried out simultaneously, operating on the principle that each CPU takes approximate job load. Therefore, it is central in the parallel computation how a big job is divided uniformly into many smaller ones, which is called “domain-decompositions.” The algorithm of the cell based domain decomposition is a generalized method of domain-decompositions for complex geometries. It has the following advantages: i) automatically decomposes a complex flow domain, ii) optimizes computer memory using sparse matrix that only store fluid cells, iii) exact load balance, iv) simple communication pattern and nearest communication connection among processors, and v) high parallel efficiency in agreement with the theoretical efficiency. Therefore, the algorithm is flexible, efficient and reliable for modeling flow in any complex geometry and is superior to other similar methods for complex geometries.

17. What seem like some of the pragmatic implications for implementation to research on the Athabasca River Basin?

Ensuring sustainable resource development is a top priority of Alberta strategic plans. The development of next generation modeling tools is key to drive new and deeper understanding in terrestrial and aquatic systems for sustainable resource management. Such an analysis of the real system such as the Athabasca River Basin based on the multidisciplinary and interdisciplinary research and integration will enforce systematic, quantitative and comprehensive clarification of concepts and assumptions and impose rational methods for approaching the problem of sustainable resource development and management in a river basin. It is likely that the research results will offer new approaches and improved technologies to achieve sustainable resource development and management in the Athabasca River Basin system.

18. Flow simulation in a complex fluidics using three turbulence models and unstructured grids(2009) aimed to simulate “symmetrical turn-up vortex amplifier (STuVA)” for the maximal flow-rate of an “eight-port STuVA.”[16] The paper described the utilization for the methodology as 3 turbulence models known as the standard k-epsilon”, the renormalization group (RNG) k-epsilon ” model and the Reynolds stress model (RSM)”; wherein, each of them has simulated flow in an eight-port STuVA for maximum flow minus swirling in the flow. From this, the article compared, or better contrasted, with the flow rate in ambient conditions. RSM appeared to match the experimental observations and measurements more than RNG and the standard k-epsilon How can research in different models of flow rate be utilized in the Athabasca River Basin – in practical terms?

Fluid mechanics is fundamental to studies of hydrological processes. The computational fluid dynamics (CFD) is a high-resolution method of fluid mechanics to simulate three transports (mass, energy and momentum) and two reactions (chemical and biological). Though the background of this article is on STuVA, the three turbulence models and numerical algorithms of the CFD in this paper are the same as those of various industrial and hydrological problems. In practice, there have been many applications of the CFD in hydrological modelling, such as coast wave modelling, flooding and flume diffusion. Therefore, the CFD is not unsuitable for the watershed modelling but computers lack sufficient power and memory. At least the numerical treatments and algorithms of the CFD can inspire our thinking in the watershed modelling during simplifying hydrological models.

19. In Development and application of a detailed inventory framework for estimating nitrous oxide and methane emissions from agriculture (2011)20, the team utilized Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) default or country-specific emission factors (EFs) with census data from England, Northern Ireland, Scotland, and Wales to develop a detailed inventory framework for the estimation of nitrous oxide (N2O)and methane (CH4).[17]This framework was used to calculate the mean annual emissions of CH4 and N2O from crops and livestock, as well as  leaching or runoff for nations bound within the United Kingdom. What other findings came from this research?

The UK ratified the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC) in December 1993 and the Convention came into force in March 1994. Parties to the Convention are committed to developing, publishing and regularly updating national inventories of GHG emissions. The inventory framework was constructed to resolve local differences and regional heterogeneity. Thus, local-level EFs were replaced easily using either local-specific EFs (Tier 2) or more complex ones from process-based models (Tier 3). Here we demonstrated a capability of the present framework for the estimate of a national inventory with four country-level resolution. The emissions from England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, were estimated separately using the IPCC approach. The total emission from the four countries was aggregated to the U.K. national total. Although the framework was illustrated using four country-level data, it is easy to be extended to higher resolution without any code structural change. Furthermore, it is ready to integrate with Geographic Information System (GIS) to resolve spatial variation and map emissions pattern.

20. What extrapolations remain relevant to the current condition of average annual emissions in the United Kingdom from 2011 to the present, and in the next decade?[18]

The IPCC inventory approach is simple, comparable, transparent and global coverage for estimate of GHG inventory. The IPCC inventory is based on statistical approach to report national greenhouse gas (GHG) with a view to providing internationally acceptable inventory methodologies. Therefore, the IPCC inventory is not for prediction of GHGs but for reporting national GHG emissions though IPCC inventory allows different policy options and different land-use to be compared and to be evaluated.

21. Theory of flow distribution in manifolds (2011) delineates the theory of flow distribution and pressure drop in the prediction of dynamic performance and efficiency for manifold systems which occurred within the methodological and the theoretical models.[19]The paper unified existing models, momentum theory, Bernoulli theory, and discrete & continuum models – a novel generalised model without a concomitant neologism. End result: a user-friendly design tool to evaluate the interaction among structures, operational conditions, and manufacture “tolerance.” Could this model become more generalized through incorporation of more (disparate) models?

Flow distribution in manifolds is fundamental issue of fluid mechanics and encounters in a wide range of areas, from radial flow reactors in chemical engineering and boiler header in mechanical engineering, to fuel cells in energy engineering and irrigation in agricultural engineering. In the past fifty years, hundreds of different models have been developed for flow distribution in manifolds that are scattered in different areas. However, some models are empirical and most of all the existing models are only suitable for some specific flow region or specific manifold structure. A generalized theory is suitable for all the flow conditions and more general manifold structure, but it is a well-known challenge to develop a generalized theory in the past fifty years.  The point is not to incorporate more models in manifolds, but to solve the practical problem of flow distributions. This theory has included the main models and methods that have been developed in the past fifty years. In other words, these existing models and methods become a special case of this generalized theory.

22. Would this greater generality create more or less functionality?

No, this generality is not to create more or less functionality, but to be useful for more structures and operating conditions.

23. In Discrete approach for flow field designs of parallel channel configurations in fuel cells (2012), the paper describes the difficulty, the problem, in transformation of single, or multiple, laboratory scale fuel cells into industrial scale production for mass utility, which involves a number of problems to maintain “throughput, operating life, low cost, reliability and high efficiency in R&D offuelcells.”[20]You intended the research to find a uniform flow distribution and pressure drop in a homogenous, or parallel, set of channel setups, or “configurations.”[21] How did the “present approach” improve upon the performance of “different layout configurations, structures, and flow conditions”?[22]

The upscaling of fuel cells is based on a basic assumption of repeat units that a successful cell performance can be repeated by all other cells in the stack since they use the same materials, seals, catalyst and structures, and undertake the same electrochemical processes. This means that the issues of chemistry, materials, water, and heat have been solved in a single cell scale. For this type of designs using repeat units, the uniformity of the flow distribution in a manifold system often determines efficiency, durability and cost of the unit stack. Under the ideal operating conditions, the electrochemical reaction is uniform over all the cells and the efficiency of the fuel cell stack is the highest and its reliability and durability is comparable to that of its individual cell. Therefore, the development of the theoretical model is to evaluate if the performance of a successful cell is repeated by all other cells in the fuel cell stack and if all the cells in the stack operate in the same operating conditions, such as flow rates and pressure drops. Thus, a design can be improved by optimization of flow conditions and structure.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Professor and CAIP Chair, Science and Technology, Athabasca University.

[2] Individual Publication Date: February 1, 2016 at http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/02/01/an-interview-with-professor-junye-wang-part-two/; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2016 at http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/02/01/an-interview-with-professor-junye-wang-part-two/.

[3] Ph.D. (1993 – 1996), Chemical Engineering and Mechanical Engineering, East China University of Science and Technology; M.Sc. (1986 – 1989), Aerospace, Aeronautical and Astronautical Engineering, Harbin Shipbuilding Engineering Institute.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Professor Junye Wang.

[5] Please see LinkedIn. (2015). Junye Wang. Retrieved from https://ca.linkedin.com/pub/junye-wang/15/a87/a87.

[6] Please see Wang, J., Zhang, X., Bengough, A. G., & Crawford, J. W. (2005). Domain-decomposition method for parallel lattice Boltzmann simulation of incompressible flow in porous media. Physical Review. E, Statistical, Nonlinear, And Soft Matter Physics, 72(1 Pt 2), 016706.

[7] Please see Junye, W., & Geoffrey H., P. (2009). Flow simulation in a complex fluidics using three turbulence models and unstructured grids. International Journal Of Numerical Methods For Heat & Fluid Flow, 19(3/4), 484-500.

[8] Please see Wang, J., Cardenas, L. M., Misselbrook, T. H., & Gilhespy, S. (2011). Development and application of a detailed inventory framework for estimating nitrous oxide and methane emissions from agriculture. Atmospheric Environment, 45(7), 1454-1463. doi:10.1016/j.atmosenv.2010.12.014

[9] Please see Wang, J. (2011). Theory of flow distribution in manifolds. Chemical Engineering Journal, 168(3), 1331-1345. doi:10.1016/j.cej.2011.02.050

[10] Please see Wang, J., Cardenas, L. M., Misselbrook, T. H., Cuttle, S., Thorman, R. E., & Li, C. (2012). Modelling nitrous oxide emissions from grazed grassland systems. Environmental Pollution, 162223-233. doi:10.1016/j.envpol.2011.11.027

[11] Please see Wang, J., & Wang, H. (2012). Discrete approach for flow field designs of parallel channel configurations in fuel cells. International Journal Of Hydrogen Energy, 37(14), 10881-10897. doi:10.1016/j.ijhydene.2012.04.034

[12] Please see Huang, C., Wang, J., Wang, J., Chen, C., & Wang, H. (2013). Pressure drop and flow distribution in a mini-hydrocyclone group: UU-type parallel arrangement. Separation & Purification Technology, 103139-150. doi:10.1016/j.seppur.2012.10.030

[13] Please see Wang, J. (2015). Barriers of scaling-up fuel cells: Cost, durability and reliability. Energy, 80509-521. do

i:10.1016/j.energy.2014.12.007.

[14] Please see Wang, J. (2015). Theory and practice of flow field designs for fuel cell scaling-up: A critical review. Applied Energy,157640-663. doi:10.1016/j.apenergy.2015.01.032

[15] Please see Wang, J., Zhang, X., Bengough, A. G., & Crawford, J. W. (2005). Domain-decomposition method for parallel lattice Boltzmann simulation of incompressible flow in porous media. Physical Review. E, Statistical, Nonlinear, And Soft Matter Physics, 72(1 Pt 2), 016706.

[16] Please see Junye, W., & Geoffrey H., P. (2009). Flow simulation in a complex fluidics using three turbulence models and unstructured grids. International Journal Of Numerical Methods For Heat & Fluid Flow, 19(3/4), 484-500.

[17] Please see Wang, J., Cardenas, L. M., Misselbrook, T. H., & Gilhespy, S. (2011). Development and application of a detailed inventory framework for estimating nitrous oxide and methane emissions from agriculture. Atmospheric Environment, 45(7), 1454-1463. doi:10.1016/j.atmosenv.2010.12.014

[18] Please see Wang, J., Cardenas, L. M., Misselbrook, T. H., & Gilhespy, S. (2011). Development and application of a detailed inventory framework for estimating nitrous oxide and methane emissions from agriculture. Atmospheric Environment, 45(7), 1454-1463. doi:10.1016/j.atmosenv.2010.12.014

[19] Please see Wang, J. (2011). Theory of flow distribution in manifolds. Chemical Engineering Journal, 168(3), 1331-1345. doi:10.1016/j.cej.2011.02.050

[20] Please see Wang, J., & Wang, H. (2012). Discrete approach for flow field designs of parallel channel configurations in fuel cells. International Journal Of Hydrogen Energy, 37(14), 10881-10897. doi:10.1016/j.ijhydene.2012.04.034

[21] Please see Wang, J., & Wang, H. (2012). Discrete approach for flow field designs of parallel channel configurations in fuel cells. International Journal Of Hydrogen Energy, 37(14), 10881-10897. doi:10.1016/j.ijhydene.2012.04.034

[22] Please see Wang, J., & Wang, H. (2012). Discrete approach for flow field designs of parallel channel configurations in fuel cells. International Journal Of Hydrogen Energy, 37(14), 10881-10897. doi:10.1016/j.ijhydene.2012.04.034

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Professor Junye Wang (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal [Online]. February 2016; 10(A). Available from: http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/02/01/an-interview-with-professor-junye-wang-part-two/.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, February 1). An Interview with Professor Junye Wang (Part Two). Retrieved from http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/02/01/an-interview-with-professor-junye-wang-part-two/.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Professor Junye Wang (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A, February. 2016. <http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/02/01/an-interview-with-professor-junye-wang-part-two/.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An Interview with Professor Junye Wang (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A. http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/02/01/an-interview-with-professor-junye-wang-part-two/.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Professor Junye Wang (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A (February 2016). http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/02/01/an-interview-with-professor-junye-wang-part-two/.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Professor Junye Wang (Part Two)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 10.A. Available from: <http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/02/01/an-interview-with-professor-junye-wang-part-two/&gt;.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Professor Junye Wang (Part Two)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 10.A., http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/02/01/an-interview-with-professor-junye-wang-part-two/.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Professor Junye Wang (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 10.A (2016):February. 2016. Web. <http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/02/01/an-interview-with-professor-junye-wang-part-two/&gt;.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Professor Junye Wang (Part Two) [Internet]. (2016, February); 10(A). Available from: http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/02/01/an-interview-with-professor-junye-wang-part-two/.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2016. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2016-01-22

An Interview with Professor Junye Wang (Part One)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 10.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Six)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: January 22, 2015

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2016

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,105

ISSN 2369-6885

Professor Junye Wang

Abstract

 An interview with Professor Junye Wang. He discusses: geographic, cultural, linguistic, and family background; influence on development; influences and pivotal moments in major cross-sections of early life including kindergarten, elementary school, junior high school, high school, and undergraduate studies (college/university); origination of interest in science and technology; educators that inspired in youth; previous professional positions including research scientist at Scottish Crop Research Institute (The James Hutton Institute) from July, 2003 to November, 2004, research associate at Loughborough University from November, 2004 to February, 2008, and principal research scientist at Rothamsted Research from March, 2008 to May, 2013, and the research experience from them; greatest take-home message from these positions; responsibilities to the public with these positions; current position is professor and CAIP Research Chair at Athabasca University beginning in August, 2013 and its targeted teaching objectives in addition to duties to the public and students; research objectives and concomitant responsibilities with the CAIP Research Chair position; and implications in funding and research for the CAIP Research Chair.

Keywords: Athabasca University, CAIP Research Chair, Loughborough University, Professor Junye Wang, responsibilities, Scottish Crop Research Institute.

An Interview with Professor Junye Wang (Part One)[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Please see the footnotes and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. In terms of geography, culture, and language, where does your family background reside?

 In the late 1950s, many state farms were built in Jiangxi province, China. Thus, many educated urban youth cadres and veterans were mobilized, and sent to these state farms by the movement of “up to the mountains and down to the villages.” My parents were sent to the Comprehensive Reclamation and Cultivation Farm at Yunshan. I was born in the state farm in the year just after Great Leap Forward and “Three Bitter Years” started. My childhood was difficult, and meals were meager. Because my parents were busy with their careers, my maternal grandmother came to Yunshan to look after us children. She was not accustomed to life in Jiangxi and was missing her hometown, Shuangpai village, Lanxi, Zhejiang province. Therefore, my grandmother brought me and my sister to travel between the hometown and the place that my parents worked. When she came to Yunshan, she brought us to Yunshan. When she came back to the hometown, I was with her to live in Shuangpai and we weren’t living with my parents. Thus, I had many friends of peasant children. The peasant children were more hardship than the state farm children. Some of them had to take care of their younger brother/sisters and fed pigs because their parents had no salaries. I saw some classmates to bring their young sister or brother to school. In China, life in cities was much better than our own. My family wanted to move back to the cities from the farm. However, the great majority of those at the farm found themselves trapped in the countryside, condemned to a life of back-breaking labor, and hoping for a recall to the city that never came. My family was the same. In Yunshan, our time there would be lengthy, perhaps permanent. The students did not need to study for both Shuangpai or Yunshan school due to the Cultural Revolution. I didn’t have any forehead mark indicating that I have any special abilities, and I didn’t have any opportunities to study, so my childhood and teenage years were mainly full of activities that I enjoyed, and labor work such as collecting firewood, fishing in creeks, and collecting wild fruits.

2. How did this influence development?

Rural youths in developing countries had fewer opportunities than those in the cities due to poor educational resources. They needed to make more of an effort as a result. However, difficult circumstances can temper one’s will. I did not have a good education, but I was educated by our experiences during the Cultural Revolution and rural hardship.

3. What about influences and pivotal moments in major cross-sections of early life including kindergarten, elementary school, junior high school, high school, and undergraduate studies (college/university)?

I had no experiences of kindergarten. My grandmother looked after my preschool and primary school. Like those who lived in rural regions in China, their grandmothers were a housewife for cooking and looking after their grandsons and granddaughters. When I attended primary school, the Cultural Revolution broke out, and the school was changed into a forum for political propaganda. All the students in the school recited Quotations from Chairman Mao Zedong and became Little Red Guards. They criticized Capitalism and revisionism in their terms, and studied a little math, physics, and chemistry. For the rural students, they also learned weeding rice plots in Spring and rice harvest in Summer and Fall from the poor and lower-middle peasants. When I was 14 years old, I did not attend high school, but The Communist Labor University at Yunshan [John Cleverley, In the Lap of Tigers: The Communist Labor University of Jiangxi Province, Rowman & Littlefield Publishers (March 1 2000)].  All students in the branch worked for periods in field or forest without exception. Although, I was the youngest student in the university, no one was exceptional to undertake the heavy labor work because our branch was on demands of students for rice production throughout. Generally, two days were in field or forest and 3 days were in class rooms like that described by John Cleverley. However, in my memory, the physical labor time on demand were much more than study time because of too many busy farming seasons, such as seeding, weeding rice plots in Spring, and harvesting rice in Summer and Fall, and building/maintaining the irrigation system and cultivating economic trees in Winter. All days were in fields except for breakfast and lunch. The rice was weeded and harvested by hand using a sickle. This was harder work: “back to the sky, face to the land.” Cuts to legs and arms easily became infected and leeches followed water motion disturbed by legs to attach to bare feet scars. Despite the heavy physical work required, it did not feel hard to do these labor jobs for a rural youth. As a student who was major in the forest, I was also required to cultivate trees in Winter and Spring. Also, we studied basic soil sciences and forest surveys. Studying English would have been impossible because that was realized to be impractical. After I graduated from the University in early 1976, I was assigned to do a similar job. Therefore, what I regret most is that I didn’t get a good education in my teenage years, there is a best age for studying, and we missed it. That was the torrent of the times, you couldn’t resist it. We have to let history judge.

In 1977, the National Higher Education Entrance Examination was officially restored as the traditional examination based on academics. Like most of the hopefuls who had accumulated during the ten years of the Cultural Revolution, I simply wanted to try my luck to emerge from society for the examination. Due to my poor school education, I failed in 1977 and then I had a distinction in the national examination in 1978. I entered the College of Jiangxi Electric Power to study thermal energy and power engineering for a three-year technical college diploma. The examination was highly competitive and admission rate in both 1977 and 1978. In late 1970s, the admission rates  were much low  in the history of the People’s Republic of China (PRC). We treasured the college years, and we studied harder than the current generation of students. After I graduated, I was assigned to Jiujiang Power Plant, where I worked for 5 years. Although, I was satisfied with my job. I had a dream of higher education in a prestigious university. Thus, I started to be a self-learner by studying university courses for the National Postgraduate Entrance Examination, which was highly competitive too. I needed to study until midnight every day because I had a full-time job. I faced numerous challenges. For example, I needed a university curriculum and syllabus that I could follow, and then I could buy textbooks. Furthermore, a diploma student was not eligible to participate in the National Postgraduate Entrance Examination, except for an approval letter from your company. However, this was not easy to have such a letter from your units. After I failed twice, I had a distinction in National Postgraduate Entrance Examination in 1986. Particularly, I earned the highest score in the Advanced Mathematics examination among all participants in the Harbin Shipbuiding Engineering Institute (Harbin Engineering Institute). As an exception of diploma students, I was admitted to the Master’s program by the Institute history under direction of my first supervisor, Prof. Bingcheng Sang. The institute admitted a first by being the 1st to give the Master’s admission to a technical diploma student. I started my research project on laser measurement of propellant combustion. I became confident after National Postgraduate Entrance Examination. I found myself capable of doing things that other students thought were impossible. It might be important that I found effective and efficient learning methods.

4. Where did interest in science and technology originate for you?

My original interests were in engineering, particularly energy engineering, which originated from problem-solving. Energy engineering is certainly an old science that constitutes multiple areas of special interest in this respect, since the most important theoretical issues and the contentious relations with other sciences are clear. However, energy issues could not be solved by a single discipline of energy science and technology itself. Environmental pollution and sustainability are closely related to energy consumption, security and technology development. Thus, because of the adaptability to such an interdisciplinary issue, some profound changes have taken place, which leads to my transformations from energy to environment and sustainability. With regard to these transformations, many traditional disciplinary boundaries should be broken as the interdisciplinary nature. Therefore, my motives for the interdisciplinary research are to transform and integrate in my research when faced complex problems with conceptual and methodological changes. This adaptability is for the problems of today, and out of an interest for the past unrelated to present-day concerns from within the discipline itself or from a more general starting point.

5. Any key educators which inspired you in youth?

I grew up in a cultural revolution. In this special era, knowledge is nothing and education is not useful. However, my grandmother and mother believed in the importance of education. Though I did not agree with them in my childhood and youth, I realized the importance of the education as I grew up. In the latter 1970s and 1980s, only knowledge could change your fate for the rural youths in China. Higher education was a unique way that a Chinese youth could move to a city from the countryside.

6. You held previous professional positions including research scientist at Scottish Crop Research Institute (The James Hutton Institute) from July, 2003to November, 2004, research associate at Loughborough University from November, 2004 to February, 2008, and principal research scientist at Rothamsted Research from March, 2008 to May, 2013.[5] What research experience came from these professional experiences?

In these jobs, I worked on different problems from chemical engineering, aeronautical engineering to biogeochemical processes in agroecosystems using analytical, numerical and experimental approaches. I have acquired the experiences of various modelling methods, from high-resolution numerical approaches such as the lattice Boltzmann method (LBM) and computational fluid dynamics (CFD) (e.g., PHYSICA multi-physics package and the Rolls-Royce HYDRA CFD code) to process-based models of agroecosystems (e.g., DNDC and Roth-C). As a professional modeler, I am deeply familiar with a variety of numerical methods and have an exceptional ability to select the most suitable approach for a specific real-world problem and to integrate numerical methods for their mutual enhancement in modelling. Particularly, my experiences on multidiscipline lead to rethinking about the problem of today. As mentioned in Question 4, these experiences allow me to adopt a whole systems approach to complex watershed modelling. Our emphasis is on interdisciplinary and multiscale research and integration to support systematic, quantitative and comprehensive clarification of concepts and assumptions as we study the problems of sustainable resource development and management.

7. What were the greatest take-home messages which came from these positions?

Persistent efforts, keep going, do not give up, and fight to the end.

8. What responsibilities to the public came from these positions?

The Athabasca River Basin (ARB) is an ecologically and economically significant resource for the development and sustainability of northern Alberta communities. This oil sand resource helps establish Canada as a stable, dependable source of oil and natural gas for national and international markets. However, concerns over the extraction and management of this resource are causing public resistance from citizens and stakeholders because of the potential dangers, such as water contamination, toxic and known carcinogens from flow-back.

My basic research on multi-scale and multidisciplinary modelling will benefit Albertans and Canadians by leading to integrated watershed management, and recommendations for land- and water-use decisions for sustainable development of northern Alberta communities.

9. Your current position is professor and CAIP Research Chair at Athabasca University beginning in August, 2013.[6] What does the professorship include in terms of targeted teaching objectives? What duties to the public and students comes with this prestige?

As a CAIP Chair, I promote research-driven teaching and learning at AU. A cutting-edge research project is usually an example to face various challenges. Thus, it is an excellent opportunity for students to acquire skills of critical thinking and problem-solving through the real problems-driven learning. Through the cutting-edge research, research students can be involved in discussions by asking interesting questions on the project or by facing challenging concepts and sometimes paradoxes from the real world. Particularly many cutting-edge research projects require teamwork, which helps students view different problems from different perspectives and disciplines. This program is to provide a hub for student training in multidisciplinary collaboration and one of the main outcomes will be the delivery of highly trained researchers, including postdoctoral research fellows, visiting scholars, graduate students and technical staff who will undertake cutting edge science, with specific training in computational modelling, experimental design, biogeochemistry, microbiology, integrating qualitative and quantitative data, statistical analyses, report writing and presentation of research.

10. What about research objectives in addition to concomitant responsibilities with the CAIP Research Chair position?

The Athabasca River Basin (ARB) is a natural resource, and its sustainable resource development is a priority of the 2012 Alberta Research & Innovation Plan. Alberta’s Water for Life Strategy and Land-use Framework include the necessity of managing cumulative effects from both agricultural and oilsands industrial activity in the ARB. Athabasca University’s research foci and expertise align closely with these provincial priorities. It is essential for Canada’s and Alberta’s competitiveness to take advantage of available resources and to have the knowledge and technology to perform complex quantitative simulations of integrated terrestrial and aquatic systems.  The CAIP Chair research program is to establish a modelling framework of integrated terrestrial and aquatic systems through coupled biogeochemical and hydrological processes so that we can directly simulate dynamics of nutrients, water and pollutants in the ARB, as well as GHGs. This is currently a significant knowledge gap, and therefore will generate new evidence to increase understanding of non-point source pollution and to develop improved technologies to mitigate GHGs and toxic pollutants, thereby providing a new tool of land-use management and decision-making for managing and protecting watersheds. This information could then be used to develop ‘Opportunity Mapping for Optimised Resource Development in the Athabasca River Basin,’ a concept which the program will demonstrate. In the long-term, such spatially-resolved data will provide a framework and methodology for those interested in delivering a low-carbon economy, sustainable resource development and climate change that can be adapted to other river basins and industries in Canada and beyond and will thus be of wide significance.

11. What does the CAIP Research Chair implicate – in funding and research?

Alberta is really interesting, particularly the Athabasca River basin, because there is no other place that has to deal with water, oilsands, agriculture, environment and sustainability. My basic research on multi-scale and multidisciplinary modelling will benefit Albertans and Canadians by leading to integrated watershed management, and recommendations for land- and water-use decisions. The CAIP program provides long-term funding. This allows me to focus on development of an ambitious framework: the modelling framework of integrated terrestrial and aquatic systems.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Professor and CAIP Chair, Science and Technology, Athabasca University.

[2] Individual Publication Date: January 22, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com.

[3] Ph.D. (1993 – 1996), Chemical Engineering and Mechanical Engineering, East China University of Science and Technology; M.Sc. (1986 – 1989), Aerospace, Aeronautical and Astronautical Engineering, Harbin Shipbuilding Engineering Institute.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Professor Junye Wang.

[5] Please see LinkedIn. (2015). Junye Wang. Retrieved from https://ca.linkedin.com/pub/junye-wang/15/a87/a87.

[6] Please see LinkedIn. (2015). Junye Wang. Retrieved from https://ca.linkedin.com/pub/junye-wang/15/a87/a87.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Professor Junye Wang (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal [Online]. January 2016; 10(A). Available from: http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/01/22/an-interview-with-professor-junye-wang-part-one/.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, January 22). An Interview with Professor Junye Wang (Part One). Retrieved from http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/01/22/an-interview-with-professor-junye-wang-part-one/.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Professor Junye Wang (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A, January. 2016. <http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/01/22/an-interview-with-professor-junye-wang-part-one/&gt;.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An Interview with Professor Junye Wang (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A. http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/01/22/an-interview-with-professor-junye-wang-part-one/.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Professor Junye Wang (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A (January 2016). http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/01/22/an-interview-with-professor-junye-wang-part-one/.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Professor Junye Wang (Part One)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 10.A. Available from: <http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/01/22/an-interview-with-professor-junye-wang-part-one/&gt;.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Professor Junye Wang (Part One)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 10.A., http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/01/22/an-interview-with-professor-junye-wang-part-one/.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Professor Junye Wang (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 10.A (2016):January. 2016. Web. <http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/01/22/an-interview-with-professor-junye-wang-part-one/&gt;.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Professor Junye Wang (Part One) [Internet]. (2016, January); 10(A). Available from: http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/01/22/an-interview-with-professor-junye-wang-part-one/.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2016. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2016-01-15

An Interview with Marco Ripà, B.Econ.Sc. (Part Three)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 10.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Six)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: January 15, 2015

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2016

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,232

ISSN 2369-6885

Marco Ripa

Abstract

An interview with Marco Ripà. He discusses: interest in arts and culture, children, economic empowerment, human rights, education, and science and technology; accrued benefits from them; changes to the educational systems of the world; development of an educational system to provide for the needs of the gifted population; most important global problems; solutions to them; policies and economic system for “equitable redistribution”; remedies for problems of diet, fitness, and social connections; a general moral, intellectual, spiritual, and emotional progression or development; ultimate relationship between consciousness and the universe; differentiation of “mankind” from the rest of the animal kingdom; relationship of mathematics to the operation of the universe; ease of correspondence due to accident/chance, design/teleology, or an alternate possibility; reasonableness of artificial intelligence with consciousness in the near future; major organizations devoted to similar causes; Gino Strada and his wife; myths around the gifted and talented population; possible motivation for the one third of underachievers in the gifted population; truths to dispel the myths; shared concern for the gifted population, especially the young; responsibilities of the gifted population towards society and culture; reason for thinking this; argument for provision for this sector of society; person of most influence on him; personal heroes in history; personal heroes in the present; smartest person he’s ever met, Evangelos Katsioulis; most creative people he’s ever met, Manahel Thabet and Enrico Preziosi; most intelligent person to have ever lived in human history without necessary overlap with IQ; the future for gifted and talented education in Italy; best untimed, power, intelligence test; technological advancement and the gifted and talented landscape influence in education, in governmental policy, in socio-cultural life, in their definition; upcoming collaborative projects; upcoming solo projects; and near and far future for the ultra-high-IQ community.

Keywords: Evangelos Katsioulis, gifted, Gino Strada, IQ, mankind, Marco Ripà, talented, ultra-high-IQ, universe, young.

An Interview with Marco Ripà, B.Econ.Sc. (Part Three)[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Please see the footnotes throughout the interview, and bibliography and citation style listing after the interview.*

41. You have in interest arts and culture, children, economic empowerment, human rights, education, and science and technology.[5]Why these interests?

When you feel that something is wrong around you and inside you, almost every day of your life, you start to search a response, but there is no solution and every answer brings two or more questions. An endless process, a continuous search for the unknown.

42. What benefits accrue from them?

Keep thinking in order to avoid what I prefer to forget, I mean: “To preserve a flexible and curious brain”, just as children do.

43. If you could, how would you change the educational systems of the world?

My dream would be to see an educational system that is not stereotyped, that can adapt itself to individualities, allowing pupils, children and boys to express their full potential and capabilities for the benefit of society. There should not be “better” or “worse”, just different people on the same world.

44. In particular, how would you develop an educational system to provide for the needs of the gifted population?

Through acceleration, curricular enrichment and curriculum compacting, this means to let the educational system be more flexible, introducing a preliminary screening for every pupil of a class. A good solution would be to combine a collective IQ test with an individual one (e.g., Raven’s Coloured Progressive Matrices with a cut-off at the 90th percentile plus WISC for pupils above 120 SD=15). You can find more info here: http://www.slideshare.net/marcokrt/identifiyng-gifted-children-and-dyslexia-early-diagnosis-risk-of-cheating-on-iq-tests

45. What global problems do you consider most important at the moment?

Food. Food is life and there is a very strong link between food and global health: unfortunately this is still a massive issue for too many people around the world.

46. How would you solve them?

Reducing the inequality of income and wealth, forcing towards a more equitable redistribution of them, spreading the growth opportunities from the most privileged people to the forgotten ones.

47. What policies and economic system would further this “equitable redistribution”?

Inequality directly undermines equality of opportunities: it entrenches immobility also affecting opportunity on a daily basis, leading to inefficiency. Thus, the classic and aforementioned trade-off between equity and efficiency is not a dogma, if we can find a good approach to use the new “capabilities” for achieving and sustaining the growth. So, my favorite model is definitely Martha Naussbaum’s theory of justice: it is focused on some fundamental capabilities, dignity and a threshold, expanding Sen’s capabilities approach.

48. Insofar as the global health issues relate to poor diet – noted in question 45, poor fitness regimens, and poor social connections with the introduction of modern technology too, what means seem to provide the remedies for each of these problems of diet, fitness, and social connections aside from equitable redistribution?

Informing children and their families about the risks of those “modern age mistakes”, as much as possible, would be a good starting point.

49. If you do consider a general moral, intellectual, spiritual, and emotional progression or development, how do you view development from the basic to most advanced levels at the individual and collective level?

This is a hard question for me and I can only guess something about living in peace as a group rather than living for ourselves looking for others approval, hoping in their envy to be recognized as “winners”. I do not know why I am here, on this strange world, nor if there exists any reason to be here, but here we are and I feel that it is important to help those who are unlucky to be proud of us. We cannot forget that we are just men, calling us “mankind”.

50. What is the ultimate relationship between consciousness and the universe?

Being conscious of ourselves is what makes us to feel alive. The whole universe is around and inside us: an exterminate, multidimensional, place in the pocket of a single brain.

51. Based on personal analysis, what differentiates “mankind” from the rest of the animal kingdom?

As Albert Einstein explained to a little child, we are smart animals, but just animals: our brain should be the key to raise mankind above animal level, and a good help was given by the opposable thumb. Unfortunately there would be a second answer to the same question: human beings are more cruel than the rest of the animal kingdom, what a big difference a smart brain makes!

52. What explains the relationship of mathematics to the operation of the universe?

This is the task of the philosophy of mathematics and I do not want to take away the big answer to Hilary Putnam and his heirs.

53. Does this ease of correspondence seem based on accident/chance, design/teleology, or an alternate possibility to you?

The only thing I can argue here is that both mathematics and the Universe seem to equipoise their rules and formulas, Galois showed this with his group theory too. I like very much asymmetrical formulas such as Maxwell’s equations, describing all classical electromagnetic phenomena. Electromagnetism is one of the four fundamental forces (interactions) of Nature, indeed.

54. Does the creation of an artificial intelligence with consciousness seem reasonable in the near future?

I do not think so, but… “Who knows?”. It is very hard to predict this: I am still trying to answer to “Why am I conscious about myself?” I think about it since I was a child and I have not solved the riddle after so many years.

55. What other major organizations devoted to similar causes can you recommend for resources and support?

UNICEF and Emergency (an Italian humanitarian NGO founded by Gino Strada and his wife in 1994).

56. Please expand, who are Gino Strada and his wife?

He is a brave medical doctor (surgeon) who said about himself “I am not a pacifist: I am against war!”. He and his wife, Teresa (who died in 2009), founded the humanitarian medical organization “Emergency”, officially not recognized as a NGO, with the aim to provide basic medical services to civilians in many countries devastated by wars. He is also an author and he openly opposed the Italian government for its support to the NATO in a peacekeeping mission in Afghanistan (the ISAF Operation).

57. What myths exist around the gifted and talented population?

It is quite common to assume that a gifted person should be good at school or that he will live a happy life: on the contrary, there is about one third of the gifted population that is composed of underachievers. Moreover, too many gifted men are nihilists or depressed, feeling sad most of the time.

58. What might motivate this one third of underachievers in the gifted population to begin to achieve to some small, or even large, degree?

They need to find a subject to study both challenging and interesting for them, feeling good at school and inside their class. It is not easy at all to achieve such a goal, but we have to do our best in order to reduce this big loss.

59. What truths dispel them?

“Truth” is relative and, in my humble opinion, it would have to be declined in as many meanings as we can see different cases and situations to apply it. Gifted or not, talented or not, first we are men who dream to be accepted as we are.

60. You share a concern of mine.  In particular, the sincere desire to assist the gifted population in flourishing, especially the young.  Now, many organizations provide for the needs of the moderately gifted ability sectors of the general population, most often adults and sometimes children.  However, few provide for the needs of children (and adults) in the high, profound, exceptional, or ‘unmeasurable’ ability sectors of the general population.  Some organizations and societies provide forums, retreats, journals, intelligence tests, literature, or outlets for the highest ability sub-populations.  What can individuals, organizations, and societies do to provide for the gifted population?

It is just a matter of priority: “in primis” gifted children need to be accepted and supported by their family and by their school. Thus, they need to be identified during their early childhood… I think that this would be a very good starting point. We can do more for them, such as focusing our attention on their relationships with peers, the third pillar of a gifted children development in addition to “family” and “school” according to many experts (Monks et al.).

61. In turn, what responsibilities do the gifted population have towards society and culture?

If they are well-supported starting from their childhood, they will gain more chances to bring significant benefits to society contributing to science and human arts. In addition, they have to develop a deeper comprehension of mankind and the need of social justice, because they have the tools to better understand the world and the human behavior.

62. Why do you think this?

Because I am a gifted myself, I guess. Who knows?

63. What argument most convinces you of the need to provide for this sector of society?

It would be very sad to waste talent, because it is not true that gifted people always create their own opportunities if they cannot be supported by a good environment to let them grow-up in the right way. This would be a pity and a great loss for the whole society.

64. Who most influenced you?

When I was young, I was inspired by Dante Alighieri and Voltaire. Now that I am over 30, I still admire rebel geniuses, such as Évariste Galois and Friedrich Nietzsche.

65. What personal heroes exist in history?

I like very much Rostand’s Cyrano de Bergerac, but some of my favorite historical heroes are Socrates, William Wallace, Newton, Tesla, Ettore Majorana, Mahatma Gandhi, the Tank Man and the Italian carabineer Salvo D’Acquisto.

66. What about in the present?

Three Nobel Laureates fighting poverty for more global justice: Malala Yousafzai, Kailash Satyarthi, Amartya Sen and his “Capability Approach”.

67. Who is the smartest person you’ve ever met?

This is a really hard question, but, basing my guess on IQ performances only, my best choices are Evangelos Katsioulis and an Italian fellow student I met when we both attended Physics courses, his name is Sergio Simonella. I think he is a mathematician now and I remember he was really smart, a fast thinker too.

68. Who is the most creative person you’ve ever met?

Someone I see almost every time, walking next to a mirror… but I have not met a lot of people in my life. However, a couple of very creative person I met years ago are the entrepreneurs Manahel Thabet and Enrico Preziosi (owner of a famous toys brand).

69. Who appears to be the most intelligent person to have ever lived in human history – not by necessity an overlap with IQ?

In order to answer this question we should previously agree about a embraceable definition of “intelligence”. Anyway, could I guess “Johann Wolfgang von Goethe” instead of “Leonardo da Vinci” without making my compatriots getting angry? Perhaps it would be better to choose “the one who invented the wheel” and stay in peace.

70. What lies in the future for gifted and talented education in Italy?

Unfortunately, I cannot see any good news on the horizon. People keep talking about their “professional work” in this field, pushing parents to pay for a private screening, but nothing is moving in Italian children’s future, gifted or not. Considering how many spots about gambling our children watch, I fear a (big) blind future for them.

71. What untimed, power, intelligence test seems the best to you?

My favourite untimed test for the high range is Lato’s LS36, because IMHO it still remains the best Gf loaded HRT. You can find similar ideas in latest HRTs and this proves that LS36 is a great test and that newest ones can suffer from the learning contamination effect, as explained here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/144702702/HRTs-Big-Flaws.

72. How will the continued increase in the pace of technological advancement alter the gifted and talented landscape, for example, in education, in governmental policy, in socio-cultural life, in their definition, and so on?

Looking at the Flynn effect, we could argue that the technological advancement increases people’s IQ (gifted or not) as well. It is clear that computer based skills will become more and more important but, if you want to know more, I have to take the crystal ball and tie my turban.

73. Any upcoming collaborative projects?

I am currently involved in two “big” collaborative projects dealing with IQ: the first one will be an 8 hands platform to connect high IQ people and smart jobs offers, while the second one is the aforementioned implementation of the Dynamic Spatial IQ Tests. I and Roberto Enea will work on it for the most part of the 2016 in order to achieve this ambitious goal. We have already started making a prototype of the system that let us check all the transformations we are going to use for every test. This tool will let us deepen the study of the tests in order to detect error conditions (e.g., multiple solutions) and it has been developed as a stand-alone application, even if our aim is to turn it into a web application during the first step and later into a smartphone application. In the web application we are going to apply all the security features necessary to guarantee the correctness and non-hackability of the test and at the same time the privacy of the scores.

74. Any upcoming solo projects?

I am currently focused on my YouTube channel [https://www.youtube.com/user/marcokrt] and I am still working on a few math papers concerning primes and the extended “Nine Dots Puzzle” [http://nntdm.net/volume-20-2014/number-1/59-71/].

75. What near and far future seems most probable for the ultra-high-IQ community?

In the near future I think that we keep on arguing about who has the highest IQ (sometimes taking many low quality tests and reporting only the top score). Many of us will continue to quietly writing books, feeling frustrated about the small numbers of people to talk to, and probably slightly more contact with one another online through Google Glass or so, ignoring bigger problems related with food lack, resources shortage, terrorism and overpopulation. I hope there will not be a third world war and it will come true just my prediction concerning who has the highest IQ and Google Glass. Time will tell.

Thank you for your time, Mr. Ripà.

Bibliography

  1. Ripà, M. (2012). Congetture su interrogativi inediti: tra speculazioni, voli pindarici e riflessioni spicciole. Simplicissimus. https://books.google.it/books?isbn=8863699461.
  2. Elite High IQ Society. (n.d.). Elite High IQ Society. Retrieved from http://www.elitehighiqsociety.org/.
  3. (2015). LinkedIn. Retrieved from https://www.linkedin.com/.
  4. Ripà, M. (2012, July 15). Identifying Gifted Children and Dyslexia Early Diagnosis: Risk of Cheating IQ Tests. Retrieved from http://www.slideshare.net/marcokrt/identifiyng-gifted-children-and-dyslexia-early-diagnosis-risk-of-cheating-on-iq-tests.
  5. Ripà, M. (2014). The rectangular spiral or the n1× n2 × … × nk Points Problem. Notes on Number Theory and Discrete Mathematics, 20(1), 59-71.
  6. Ripà, M. (2013, July). X-Test Solutions Finally Revealed!. Retrieved from http://www.researchgate.net/publication/251238254_X-Test_Solutions_Finally_Revealed%21.
  7. sPIQr Society. (2015). sPIQr Society. Retrieved from http://www.spiqrsociety.com/.
  8. World Intelligence Network. (n.d.). World Intelligence Network. Retrieved from http://www.iqsociety.org/.
  9. World IQ Foundation. (n.d.). World IQ Foundation. Retrieved from http://wiqf.org/.
  10. Ripà, M. (2006, October 18). MarcoKRT Channel. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/user/marcokrt.
  11. Ripà, M. (2013, May 30). HRTs (Big) Flaws. Retrived from http://www.scribd.com/doc/144702702/HRTs-Big-Flaws.
  12. Ripà, M. (2014). 1729 – Il numero di Mr. 17-29. Eracle. http://www.ibs.it/code/9788867430574/ripagrave/1729-numero-29.html.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Founder, sPIqr Society; Co-Founder & Co-President, World IQ Foundation (WIQF).

[2] Individual Publication Date: January 15, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com.

[3] B.Econ.Sc. (magna cum laude), University of Roma Tre.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Marco Ripà.

[5] Please see LinkedIn. (2015). Marco Ripà. Retrieved from https://it.linkedin.com/pub/marco-rip%C3%A0/14/991/950.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Marco Ripà, B.Econ.Sc. (Part Three). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal [Online].January 2016; 10(A). Available from: http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/01/15/an-interview-with-marco-ripa-part-three/.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, January 15). An Interview with Marco Ripà, B.Econ.Sc. (Part Three). Retrieved from http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/01/15/an-interview-with-marco-ripa-part-three/.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Marco Ripà, B.Econ.Sc. (Part Three). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A, January. 2016. <http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/01/15/an-interview-with-marco-ripa-part-three/&gt;.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An Interview with Marco Ripà, B.Econ.Sc. (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A. http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/01/15/an-interview-with-marco-ripa-part-three/.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Marco Ripà, B.Econ.Sc. (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A (January 2016). http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/01/15/an-interview-with-marco-ripa-part-three/.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Marco Ripà, B.Econ.Sc. (Part Three)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 10.A. Available from: <http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/01/15/an-interview-with-marco-ripa-part-three/&gt;.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Marco Ripà, B.Econ.Sc. (Part Three)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 10.A., http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/01/15/an-interview-with-marco-ripa-part-three/.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Marco Ripà, B.Econ.Sc. (Part Three).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 10.A (2016):January. 2016. Web. <http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/01/15/an-interview-with-marco-ripa-part-three/&gt;.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Marco Ripà, B.Econ.Sc. (Part Three) [Internet]. (2016, January); 10(A). Available from: http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/01/15/an-interview-with-marco-ripa-part-three/.

License and Copyright

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Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2015. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2016-01-08

An Interview with Marco Ripà, B.Econ.Sc. (Part Two)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 10.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Six)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: January 8, 2015

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2016

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,783

ISSN 2369-6885

Marco Ripa

Abstract

An interview with Marco Ripà. He discusses: positives and negatives in the world of the high-IQ and ultra-high IQ; famous flames in the high-IQ and ultra-high IQ; personality difference among the gifted generalists and gifted specialists; creating, developing, and sustaining the sPIqr Society up to the present; total number and personality profile of the sPIqr Society membership; source of linguistic talent; accrued benefits for professional and personal life; YouTube channel; aerobic, balance, and strength health recommendations; source of aforementioned interests; Asperger’s Syndrome advantages and disadvantages; utilization of advantages and adaptation of disadvantages of Asperger’s Syndrome; Tim Page, Glenn Gould, friendship, companionship, and Asperger’s Syndrome; audio-visual media for self-expression and its contrast with print media; most correct general philosophy; most correct ethical philosophy; most correct political philosophy; most correct social philosophy; most correct economic philosophy; and the singular philosophical framework of the most correct general, ethical, political, social, and economic philosophy in civilization.

Keywords:  Asperger’s Syndrome, Dr. Manahel Thabet, Dubai, Glenn Gould, high-IQ, intelligence test, Marco Ripà, Tim Page, ultra-high-IQ, United Arab Emirates, X-Test, YouTube.

An Interview with Marco Ripà, B.Econ.Sc. (Part Two)[1],[2],[3],[4] 

*Please see the footnotes throughout the interview, and bibliography and citation style listing after the interview.*

18. You co-founded WIQF with Dr. Manahel Thabet. How did this collaboration develop and influence the growth of WIQF up to the present?

The WIQF would not have been founded without Dr. Manahel Thabet. The original idea come-up in my mind a few years ago. At the time, my thought was that high IQ people should ask for a more reliable and strict ranking than the WGD. People tend to report only their top scores forgetting the rest, but this partial info would lead to inflated scores, so I reported this issue to Manahel and we finally decided to create the WIQF: she helped me with the WIQF formula, its registration, with the website and later bringing inside the group (as advisory board members) Prof. Tony Buzan and the chess Grandmaster Raymond D. Keene OBE. One year later, WIQF does not count many members, but the average level is really good.

19. With respect to the X-Test and other high-range intelligence tests, how does one create, develop, refine, administer, statistically norm, and publish a legitimate test?[5] 

The X-Test is no longer in use since May 2013, because I analyzed the main problems related to high range tests. You can find the whole story here: http://www.researchgate.net/publication/251238254_X-Test_Solutions_Finally_Revealed!

By the way, high range tests (even my ENSDT 20 and ENSDT Prototype) cannot be an exact science not because their norm cannot be based on thousands of testees, norms are usually based on z-score, I mean on the scores achieved by a testee on most reliable, recognized and supervised tests. It is not easy to do, but I hope to provide a useful tool to guess the ultra-high-IQ taking a Gf loaded test at home, without any time limit.

20. How did the opportunity arise to present in Dubai in the United Arab Emirates?

It was Dr. Manahel Thabet to give me this opportunity and I am really grateful for having had the chance to present a couple of papers about gifted children features and their needs, plus a screening method to easily identify gifted pupils inside the school. It was a great experience and a memory that will last a lifetime.

21. What positives and negatives exist in the world of the high-IQ and ultra-high IQ?

In my humble opinion, the world of the high-IQ is not very different from common life. High-IQ groups are groups of different people, from different countries, religions, ideas and so on. We usually talk in English or Spanish and sometimes a flame can be hard to be resolved, especially if you are talking about an IQ related topic. The best gift I have received from high IQ people is a 360° understanding, sharing a lot of interesting ideas and projects, while on the other side of the coin I can see some lack of self-confidence and existential loneliness.

22. Based on the response, flames in the high-IQ community remain hard to extinguish at times. However, most should self-exhaust because most societies most of the time continue to persist, even grow and adapt to internal changes. Any famous flames which continue in high-IQ and ultra-high-IQ community?

A famous personal flame is the one against the Fiqure test (by N. Soulios and L. Papadioti), since I started it asking for its norm to the authors: as I got no response, I guessed that Fiqure has not any serious norm. Now I am trying to avoid this topic, keeping the focus on my own online (dynamic) IQ tests.

23. A panoramic perspective can come from the gifted, but numerous gifted individuals specialize and think deep thoughts about a single topic. What personality characteristics seem to separate the gifted generalists and the gifted specialists?

First of all, their persistence and the interest in the specific topic, but there could be so many elements that we should take into account. Modern sciences require to do so if we hope to achieve something great. Perhaps, the last person with a very deep knowledge of an entire field of science was the Italian physicist Enrico Fermi.

24. How did you create, develop, and sustain sPIqr Society up to the present?[6] 

I founded sPIqr at the beginning of 2010, creating a website and a mailing list while, a few months later, I created the Facebook group too. I cover its costs using the small (one time) membership fee paid by members who join the 1/5000 society, even if I let somebody join for free if he has a real reason that prevent him from paying.

25. What is the total number and general personality profile of the sPIQr membership – aside from nationality and IQ rarity?

sPIqr full members are obviously very smart, we have a member who gained his bachelor degree as a teenager and a few other child prodigies, but there are also some gifted underachievers. The full membership status requires to go beyond the 153 SD=15 mark on two different kind of tests, so sPIqr members are usually skilled in different fields, loving mathematics, poetry, writing and so on. Many of them are listed on a lot of high IQ societies and they like logics and IQ tests, caring about the cause of the group: to try and help gifted pupils in their schools, spreading IQ knowledge and related issues all over the world.

26. You speak five languages at various levels of proficiency including Italian (native), English (professional), French (professional), Spanish (limited working), and Latin (limited working).[7]  Where does this linguistic talent source itself?

I do not consider myself very good at languages, including English. However, trying to understand what I read I have learnt some English by myself and a little Spanish in just two weeks when I was at the university (in Italy we study Latin during our high school years, translating ancient poets and statesman from Latin to Italian). Last year I started to study French because my (former) girlfriend and I were planning to go and live in Geneva, together. Unfortunately our relationship broke-off before our common project could have been realized.

27. What benefits have accrued throughout professional and personal life because of them to you?

Let me skip this point answering the question with another one: “Can we say that this wonderful interview is not enough?”

28. You host an Italian language (with English translation possibilities) YouTube channel.[8]  What is the core content of the channel?

Well, thanks for asking. I opened the channel in 2006 when YouTube was far smaller than the large community we can see nowadays… it was just a (small) fitness channel focused on home training: I used the channel to share my lifts on a thematic forum to improve my form and technique.
A few months ago I decided to move the channel on IQ related topics, talking about giftedness, IQ tests, Asperger Syndrome (yeah, I am an Aspie too), physics, etc… I would like to share the first spatial dynamic IQ test and the other project (related to IQ as well) we are working on through this powerful platform at the right time (very soon).

29. Fitness training regimens can differ in the scope and intensity of recommendations for the trainees by the trainer. In terms of the long-term fitness training regimen recommendations from you, such as those through the YouTube channel, what general fitness training regimen recommendations should most people most of the time practice for general health in terms of aerobic, balance, strength, and stretch health?
My personal suggestion is to avoid powerlifting and bodybuilding, while aerobic training and/or practicing a good martial art as an amateur would be a good idea. I regret the hard lifts I did in the past ten years.

30. Where do these interests source themselves for you?

Very hard to say, I guess they can be in some way related to the giftedness plus Asperger combo. I do not think that I could have been influenced by family, peers or school in this way.

31. Asperger’s Syndrome exists as a pervasive developmental disorder (PDD). Insofar as this ubiquitous developmental disorder expresses itself in the daily lives of those with its symptoms across its spectrum, and from the 31 years of personal experience, if I may ask, what advantages and disadvantages come with Asperger’s Syndrome?

I tried and explained what Asperger is in a video loaded on Youtube a couple of months ago. However, generally speaking, living with the Asperger is not very nice and Aspies are hardly understood by neurotypicals. We are hypersensitive people, reconnecting ourselves with our childhood; we can feel depressed for no reason, there is an higher risk of suicide and meltdowns are not so infrequent between us. I admitted to have the Asperger as an adult and I simply lived my life without caring so much about this PDD, my thought was that I was simply “uncommon”, with my occasional fixations and hobbies.

32. How can an individual with the syndrome capitalize on the advantages, and re-formulate thoughts and behaviour around the disadvantages, to create a better life for their self and those of value to them?

As I just said, forgetting to be “so strange” (sometime) could be a good strategy to avoid to use the Asperger’s Syndrome as an excuse for not achieving our best in everything we start. On the contrary, being an Aspie can turn into an advantage too, because it helps us to stay more focused on the project we are involved in. As an example, you can think to Satoshi Tajiri, the creator of the Pokémon!

33. Some stories come to mind about the nature of someone living with Asperger’s Syndrome and the need for companionship. In light of this line of discussion, if I may, I will relate one narrative for a moment.  Tim Page, a music critic, lives with Asperger’s Syndrome, and the late Glenn Gould, had, quite probably, either autism or Asperger’s Syndrome, and Page notes the loneliness for himself in a life with the syndrome and without friendship and companionship in terms of relationship with kin. Once Page met Gould, Page described that as a friendship at first sight – so to speak. Music existed as a deep passion for them and the bridge for the oft-sought friendship and companionship for them. For those in the present or the far future who happen to read this portion of the interview and live with Asperger’s Syndrome, any advice to them on acquiring the kinship of mind desired by possibly some, or even most, with Asperger’s Syndrome?

It would be very hard to predict when “friendship” and/or “love” will knock at your door, but if you will keep it open no one will knock at it… thus, Asperger individuals have a good chance to open it at the right person, bearing in mind that we are hypersensitive too. I met my best friend when we were 5 years old and he is a neurotypical man, even if many people I know teasingly call me “Sheldon”, referring to the famous BBT character.

34. What does audio-visual media provide in contrast to print media for self-expression?

I think that both of them can reach the same goal through different paths, it depends on who uses them and how he communicates to his audience. In general, the audio-visual can be a more informal way to share yourself and your character, while print media are more professional and better to communicate, technical and professional contents. To be more specific, I found YouTube very good for tutorials.

35. What general philosophy seems the most correct to you?

“Est modus in rebus”. It is a quote by the Latin poet Horace (Quintus Horatius Flaccus) from his “Satires 1” that resumes the idea of “Aurea Mediocritas”, meaning that extremes are dangerous and it would be better to try and reach moderation in everything. This is what I would like to achieve, even if I am still far from this personal goal.

36. What ethical philosophy seems the most correct to you?

I have a strong set of moral and ethical values. I am aware of the fact that morality is derived from evolutionary rules of mankind looking at man as a “social animal” by nature; despite of this my keywords are: benevolence, meritocracy (in employment settings) and social justice.

37. What political philosophy seems the most correct to you?

Italy is well known for its food and for Mafia, so I have to put my two cents on a governance or authority able to enforce justice, laws and to establish a legal code that remains the same for every citizen.

38. What social philosophy seems the most correct to you?

I think that every human being should have the same opportunities: the true substantive equality is the enhancement of individuality.

39. What economic philosophy seems the most correct to you?

Considering the tradeoff between efficiency and equality, I would choose the second one…

40. General moderation, and benevolence, meritocracy, and social justice grounded in evolutionary theory, and enforcement of justice, laws, and a legal code for each citizen by governance, and true equality through enhanced individualism, and a focus on economic equality. What unites these in a singular philosophical framework?

Civilization.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Founder, sPIqr Society; Co-Founder & Co-President, World IQ Foundation (WIQF).

[2] Individual Publication Date: January 8, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com.

[3] B.Econ.Sc. (magna cum laude), University of Roma Tre.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Marco Ripà.

[5] Please see LinkedIn. (2015). Marco Ripà. Retrieved from https://it.linkedin.com/pub/marco-rip%C3%A0/14/991/950.

[6] Please see LinkedIn. (2015). Marco Ripà. Retrieved from https://it.linkedin.com/pub/marco-rip%C3%A0/14/991/950.

[7] Please see LinkedIn. (2015). Marco Ripà. Retrieved from https://it.linkedin.com/pub/marco-rip%C3%A0/14/991/950.

[8] Please see YouTube. (n.d.). Marco Ripà. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/user/marcokrt.

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Marco Ripà, B.Econ.Sc. (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal [Online]. January 2016; 10(A). Available from: http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/01/08/an-interview-with-marco-ripa-part-two/.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, January 8). An Interview with Marco Ripà, B.Econ.Sc. (Part Two). Retrieved from http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/01/08/an-interview-with-marco-ripa-part-two/.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Marco Ripà, B.Econ.Sc. (Part Two). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A, January. 2016. <http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/01/08/an-interview-with-marco-ripa-part-two/>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An Interview with Marco Ripà, B.Econ.Sc. (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A. http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/01/08/an-interview-with-marco-ripa-part-two/.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Marco Ripà, B.Econ.Sc. (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A (January 2016). http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/01/08/an-interview-with-marco-ripa-part-two/.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Marco Ripà, B.Econ.Sc. (Part Two)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 10.A. Available from: <http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/01/08/an-interview-with-marco-ripa-part-two/>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Marco Ripà, B.Econ.Sc. (Part Two)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 10.A., http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/01/08/an-interview-with-marco-ripa-part-two/.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Marco Ripà, B.Econ.Sc. (Part Two).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 10.A (2016):January. 2016. Web. <http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/01/08/an-interview-with-marco-ripa-part-two/>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Marco Ripà, B.Econ.Sc. (Part Two) [Internet]. (2016, January); 10(A). Available from: http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/01/08/an-interview-with-marco-ripa-part-two/.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2015. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2016-01-01

An Interview with Marco Ripà, B.Econ.Sc. (Part One)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 10.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (Part Six)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: January 1, 2016

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2016

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,485

ISSN 2369-6885

Marco Ripa

Abstract

An interview with Marco Ripà. He discusses: geographic, cultural, and linguistic familial background; influence on personal development; pivotal moments; loneliness and associated fear in youth, and its frequency in gifted youth; physique sculpting and personal combat training; B.Econ.Sc., magna cum laude; autodidactic proclivities; expertise and knowledge and its benefit for personal and professional life; contents of the big IQ projects; inspiration for mathematics competitions, papers in number theory, and the creation of integer sequences for OEIS; title, contents, and interest in the discrete mathematics book; academic papers on currency speculation, market failures, social justice, and sub-prime mortgage crisis; common intelligences with lower than expected occurrence and flourishing; a society that provides for the gifted and talented; summarization of the research subjects completed by him; entrance into the high-IQ and ultra-high-IQ world; and the inter-relationship development up to the present between the high-IQ, and ultra-high-IQ, community and himself.

Keywords: gifted youth, high-IQ, IQ, Marco Ripà, mathematics, research, society, ultra-high-IQ.

An Interview with Marco Ripà, B.Econ.Sc. (Part One)[1],[2],[3],[4]

*Please see the footnotes throughout the interview, and bibliography and citation style listing after the interview.*

1. In terms of geography, culture, and language, where does your family background reside?

I was born in Rome (Italy), 31 years ago, and I still live here. My parents’ IQ is average and my family belongs to the Catholic middle class (let’s say, none of them talks a second language or knows how to create a P.D.F. file – sad but true), despite this I became agnostic at the age of 17 and I started to read foreigner thinkers such as Nietzsche, Voltaire, Goethe, Rousseau and so on…

2. How did this influence personal development?

I think that this environment has not influenced my cultural development in a positive way, even if I opened my mind and started to think deeper about myself when I discovered the World Wide Web and Google.

3. What about influences and pivotal moments in major cross-sections of early life including kindergarten, elementary school, junior high school, high school, and undergraduate studies (college/university)?

Well, when I was a child I was afraid of school (I was in a kindergarten just for one year or so). The loneliness was triggering the fear but, sometimes, the fear of being rejected by others was driving the loneliness itself… I started feeling better during my high school years, practicing karate (wado-ryu style at agonistic level) and starting to lift some weights. From my very personal point of view, it could be good to change something in your lifestyle in order to make a change in the way you relate with others and to make them feel good with you, starting to listen more their words rather than just talking.

4. You noted the fear brought on by loneliness in youth. Does this happen with frequency among the gifted?

I think so. Obviously, it is not a general rule, but I think that it can be a very common condition, especially if you have some Asperger traits too.

5. You mentioned weightlifting and karate, “wado-ryu style.” What does physique sculpting and personal combat training provide for you?

I started practicing karate during my second High School year. My initial thought was that it would be helpful to gain some respect in my classroom, to avoid myself from getting bullied. Keep training, I gained many injuries and I started to realize what is the real meaning of this discipline, looking at it not just as a sport. Later I started to train myself also at the gym, hoping to become stronger and I gradually reduced my commitment in karate, looking for something more flexible to practice during my college years. At the end of the journey I can say that I have gained many injuries and a lot of respect for the sports, their practitioners and their common values.

6. You earned a B.Econ.Sc., magna cum laude.[5] What expertise and knowledge comes with this qualification?

I consider myself a self-taught man with a wide range of interests (including Psychometrics, Statistics, Divergent Thinking and Mathematics) but, at the time, my thought was that a degree in Economics would have been better than a degree in Physics, so I left the “Physics and Astrophysics” course and I spent a few years studying Keynes, Friedman, Wicksell, Hayek and their ideas about the trade-off between equity and efficiency. I did not appreciate Economic theories very much, because I prefer more abstractive and rigorous subjects, so I finally left university when the sub-prime mortgage crisis reached my country.

7. “Psychometrics, Statistics, Divergent Thinking and Mathematics” provide a solid foundation for research into intelligence. Intelligence research observes and examines the gifted and talented. Gifted and talented individuals might tend towards autodidactic education. Your own autobiography given before describes this. As a general rule about and for the gifted and talented, do autodidactic proclivities seem true about them to you?

I read being a self-taught person as a natural response to an inner discomfort, when you cannot find enough challenge in the school or if it cannot put you in the right perspective. I do not know if a general rule exists, but I think that any unrecognized gifted individual can easily develop many interests in the world wide web era. Speaking about talented people, it is probably true that if they can taste their passion (at least) one time, they can usually find the way to follow it.8

8. How did this expertise and knowledge benefit personal and professional life?

To be honest with you, I have to say that I did not use very much what I learned in the Economics field. When I left the College/University (here in Italy they are basically the same thing) I participated in a few projects within the private sector, unfortunately my colleagues did not keep their word about them… so, during the last few years, I have worked alone on some projects involving abstract conceptualization, 3D modeling, giftedness and proficiency analysis. By the way, I am currently working, as a member of two different teams, on two big projects relating to IQ.

9. With respect to those two different teams purposed to the study of IQ in big projects, what remain the contents of those projects?

Well, the aim of the first project is to establish a not yet existing link between the high IQ world and the job world, for an interesting exchange never realized, where very selected “brains” are offered for companies searching for special abilities: this is “BrainsJob”, indeed. The second project is the implementation of my spatial dynamic IQ tests (ENSDT): the original idea was explained in my ebook “https://books.google.it/books?isbn=8863699461” in 2012.

10. You earned an honor prize in high school and second place in the high school mathematics competition around the same time. In addition to these accomplishments, you authored papers on number theory and created some integer sequences for OEIS. What inspired taking part in these for you?

As previously mentioned, since I was a child I liked discrete mathematics very much. Thus, after the undergraduate degree I started to write a novel involving cryptography and a book about hyperoperations. This book focused on the p-adic convergence of tetration contains many integer sequences and a few of them were not listed on the OEIS, thus I decided to submit them. To date I have contributed to the OEIS with more than 40 new sequences.
I have published also a few papers on peer-reviewed journals (such as “Notes on Number Theory and Discrete Mathematics” and “Matematicamente”) relating to prime numbers and a couple of papers about the classic Nine Dots Puzzle extended to any k-dimensional space (k>2), the latest paper will be published soon on the same journal.

11. Regarding the title of the book based on discrete mathematics and personal interest in it, what was the title of the book and its contents?

“La strana coda della serie n^n^…^n” is a book that I have published in 2011 and it is focused on hyperoperators and their p-adic convergence properties. In particular, I presented some new results about tetration (or hyper-4).
To easy understand what tetration is, you can take a look at the following relations,

addition : multiplication = multiplication : exponentiation = exponentiation : tetration .

12. You authored academic papers on currency speculation, market failures, social justice, and sub-prime mortgage crisis. Why these topics?

I wrote them in Italian. The first one was relating to my essay “International organizations facing the current crisis” and then I shared my thoughts about social justice: I think that it is very important in order to reduce the gap in education due to economic factors or constraints. Some constraints of a subjective nature, ethics, morals and various prejudices may still persist: intelligence is not focused in specific areas or specific regions of the planet. This implies that, anywhere, in different social, religious, economic and environmental situation, we may find the presence of intelligences that, under the right conditions, might be able to put to use their gift. Thus, contexts in which the dynamics of social, religious, environmental but also economic and infrastructure aspects do not allow personal development, could drive us to miss the great chance to give these humans like us the opportunity to develop their talents. And this could be done with the intelligence as well with artistic talents. Moreover, social issues (religious, environmental, and so on…) can affect the development of the personality of “gifted” children and “gifted” adults.

13. With respect to the underutilization of gifts and talents of the gifted and talented, what common intelligences seem to have lower than expected occurrence and flourishing?

Very hard to say, and I am not a big fan of Gardner’s theory of multiple intelligences. Could I argue for a quite common lack of “relational skills” or so? This would be the main key, in my opinion.

14. What society appears to provide for the gifted and talented?

If we assume that we live in a modern country where liberalism and laissez-faire capitalism belong to the mainstream, and where the idea of the self-made man (such as Jobs, Gates, and so on) is often embodied by gifted and/or talented people, we could imagine a good scenario, even if it cannot be the best of all. Gifted and talented individuals sometime need to be understood, supported and feeling themselves to be appreciated by others, unconditionally.

15. What summarizes each of these research subjects completed by you?

Mathematics is my first love and I need to deal with her occasionally, while the hope to support gifted children is my main goal and now I am very happy about what me and my associate, Roberto Enea, are doing in this field: we are implementing the first dynamic spatial IQ test in the world with a unique norm and immune from the risk of cheating! It would be a dream that become reality one day, to have this new generation of tests to be, administrated to measure cognitive abilities with a clinical approach.

16. You have deep involvement in the high-IQ world. For examples, you founded the sPIqr Society, co-founded the World IQ Foundation (WIQF), constructed the X-Test, presented at the 12th Asia-Pacific Conference on Giftedness in the United Arab Emirates, Dubai (2012), and hold memberships in about thirty high-IQ societies.[6],[7],[8] In addition, you have an interesting proposal for a new computer-based intelligence test for the high-range.[9] How did this entrance into the high-IQ and ultra-high-IQ world begin for you?

Good question, thanks for letting me tell this story. I discovered IQ tests in early 2009, searching for something to relax my brain after my last exam. I found the M-FACE/L test and I took it. A few months later I took the 916 test by Laurent Dubois scoring well in either cases… I put the blame on Google.

17. How did this inter-relationship develop up to the present between the high-IQ, and ultra-high-IQ, community and yourself?

When I discovered my giftedness I started to learn more about this topic and I sadly understood that in my country the word “gifted” is almost unknown and there is not any support in our schools (no acceleration, no curriculum compacting nor curricular enrichment). Thus, I decided to found the sPIqr Society after I joined some well-known high-IQ groups. Now I have many pen friends all over the world and I can see our society from a lot of different perspectives.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Founder, sPIqr Society; Co-Founder & Co-President, World IQ Foundation (WIQF).

[2] Individual Publication Date: January 1, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com; Full Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2016 at www.in-sightjournal.com.

[3] B.Econ.Sc. (magna cum laude), University of Roma Tre.

[4] Photograph courtesy of Marco Ripà.

[5] Please see LinkedIn. (2015). Marco Ripà. Retrieved from https://it.linkedin.com/pub/marco-rip%C3%A0/14/991/950.

[6] Please see sPIQr Society. (2015). sPIQr Society. Retrieved from http://www.spiqrsociety.com/.

[7] Please see World IQ Foundation. (n.d.). Organizers. Retrieved from http://wiqf.org/international-titles/organizers/.

[8] Please see World Intelligence Network. (n.d.). SPIQR. Retrieved from http://www.iqsociety.org/win/societies/spiqr/.

[9] “High-range” defined as “at or above 3 standard deviations or 3 sigma from the norm.”

Appendix II: Citation Style Listing

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. An Interview with Marco Ripà, B.Econ.Sc. (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal [Online].January 2016; 10(A). Available from: http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/01/01/an-interview-with-marco-ripa-part-one/.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2016, January 1). An Interview with Marco Ripà, B.Econ.Sc. (Part One). Retrieved from http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/01/01/an-interview-with-marco-ripa-part-one/.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. An Interview with Marco Ripà, B.Econ.Sc. (Part One). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A, January. 2016. <http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/01/01/an-interview-with-marco-ripa-part-one/>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2016. “An Interview with Marco Ripà, B.Econ.Sc. (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A. http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/01/01/an-interview-with-marco-ripa-part-one/.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “An Interview with Marco Ripà, B.Econ.Sc. (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 10.A (January 2016). http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/01/01/an-interview-with-marco-ripa-part-one/.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Marco Ripà, B.Econ.Sc. (Part One)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 10.A. Available from: <http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/01/01/an-interview-with-marco-ripa-part-one/>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2016, ‘An Interview with Marco Ripà, B.Econ.Sc. (Part One)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 10.A., http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/01/01/an-interview-with-marco-ripa-part-one/.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “An Interview with Marco Ripà, B.Econ.Sc. (Part One).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 10.A (2016):January. 2016. Web. <http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/01/01/an-interview-with-marco-ripa-part-one/>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. An Interview with Marco Ripà, B.Econ.Sc. (Part One) [Internet]. (2016, January); 10(A). Available from: http://in-sightjournal.com/2016/01/01/an-interview-with-marco-ripa-part-one/.

License and Copyright

License

In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2015. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2 Comments
2016-01-01

Issue 9.A, Idea: Outliers and Outsiders (Part Five)

Dear Readers,

Please see In-Sight Issues for Issue 9.A, Idea: Outliers and Outsiders (Part Five):

 

Issue 9.A, Idea - Outliers and Outsiders (Part Five)

(January 1, 2016; P.D.F./Kindle/iBooks, N/A pages; N/A words)

Scott

License
In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightjournal.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 2012-2016. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content.  All interviewees co-copyright their interview material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

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