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Conversation with Bob Williams on Schizotypy, Creativity, Genius, Johnson and Bouchard, PFIT and BA10, Wai, Benbow, Lubinsky, Rex Jung, and Arthur Jensen: Retired Nuclear Physicist (5)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: July 1, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 4,567

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Bob Williams is a Member of the Triple Nine Society, Mensa International, and the International Society for Philosophical Enquiry. He discusses: schizotypal traits; schizotypal personality traits and temperament; the prominent tests of creativity; impulsively nonconformist and prone to divergent thought; measuring creativity; creativity over the lifespan; BigC (true genius); Johnson and Bouchard; negative correlation between very high levels of creativity and very high levels of intelligence in brain efficiency; PFIT; Wai, Lubinsky, and Benbow; Rex Jung; Arthur Jensen; original creative insights into a unified work; developmental cascade effects; drugs; true genius tend to isolation; true genius tend towards no progeny; high intelligence or high creativity; cold hard truths; countries leaders.

Keywords: Arthur Jensen, Benbow, Bob Williams, Bouchard, creativity, genius, intelligence, I.Q., Johnson, Lubinski, PFIT, Rex Jung, schizotypy, Wai.

Conversation with Bob Williams on Schizotypy, Creativity, Genius, Johnson and Bouchard, PFIT and BA10, Wai, Benbow, Lubinsky, Rex Jung, and Arthur Jensen: Retired Nuclear Physicist (5)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: With schizotypal traits and temperament as an association with creativity, is it possible to parse schizotypal traits into the individual traits to associate with some common, accepted definitions of creativity?

Bob Williams[1],[2]*: Schizotypy is associated with verbal and artistic creativity. There are presumably some who have, nonetheless, shown a more technical form of creativity. John Nash, comes to mind. The form of schizophrenia known as Introvertive Anhedonia is negatively associated with creativity. The commonly found association between schizotypy and creativity is that there is a reduced latent inhibition.

Measuring and predicting outcomes relating to creativity is more difficult than doing those things relative to intelligence, because intelligence is a very general trait that is well understood structurally (as in a hierarchical factor analysis). The thing that schizophrenia and intelligence have in common is that they are both additive polygenic traits and, therefore, can be measured via polygenic scores. The best material I have seen on the genetics of traits is Robert Plomin Blueprint: How DNA Makes Us Who We Are, Penguin Books Ltd., 2018. Plomin mentioned that today schizophrenia, like autism, is treated as a spectrum. In this book, Plomin commented: “In several diverse populations the researchers found that people with high polygenic scores for schizophrenia were more likely to be in creative professions.”

It is my understanding that the ratio of highly creative people with schizophrenia to noncreative people with schizophrenia is small. Even so there is a clear link.

Jacobsen: Following from the previous question, if we do so, what do particular parsed aspects of schizotypal personality traits and temperament tell us about their association or correlation with creativity?

Williams: As I mentioned in the first answer, most important link is a lowered inhibitory function. This particular trait is discussed repeatedly in The Cambridge Handbook of the Neuroscience of Creativity (2018) Rex E. Jung (Editor), Oshin Vartanian (Editor). But, if you ask a psychologist about the traits associated with schizophrenia, he will probably list other behaviors, such as hallucinations, disorganized thinking, extremely disorganized or abnormal motor behavior, thought and movement disorders, etc.

This is a related, side topic: In the book referenced above, Kyaga mentioned that people majoring in technical fields, more often than others, had siblings with autism. This suggests a path from a spectrum behavior that involves shared genes that lead to elevated ability in those who share the genes, but where the spectrum disorder prevents it from showing up in the affected (autistic) person. There may be a similar finding relative to creativity and schizophrenia. In fact there may be good studies of such a relationship, but I have either not seen them or have forgotten the source.

I think the best way to describe the relationships between schizophrenia and creativity is to note that among true geniuses, elevated levels of schizophrenia are helpful or even essential. But if one observes the presence of schizophrenia in an individual, there is not the same high probability (the presence of high creativity). To me, the zones between the elevated levels of psychosis and neurosis (per Hans Eysenck) and elevated standing on the schizophrenia spectrum seem to be either overlapping or identical.

Jacobsen: Do any of the prominent tests of creativity truly measure creativity? Are these reliable and valid, or simply leaving more questions unanswered?

Williams: The answer to that question strikes me as depending on the perspective of the observer. In the most basic sense, the tests of creativity consist of tests of remote association, fluency, divergent thinking, etc., which are not direct measures of creativity. From the perspective of a researcher who wants a wide range of abilities shown (low to high ability), the Torrance Tests of Creative Thinking (and similar tests) produces this kind of measurement. This is where the issue of artistic creativity and scientific creativity can be seen. A test, such as the TTCT will produce similar results for people in science or in arts, so the researcher may be quite happy with the results as measuring “creativity,” even when the kinds of creativity are very different.

Although some researchers argue that intelligence is a factor in creativity, the more important factor is personality, as measured by the Big Five. The most important of these five is Openness to experience and Conscientiousness (a negative indicator).

For the record, a few of the other tests that are used for measuring creativity:

Divergent Thinking (a general category)

Remote Associations Test (a general category)

Creative Personality Scale

Creative Achievement Questionnaire (CAQ; a selfreport)

Jacobsen: If someone is impulsively nonconformist and prone to divergent thought patterns, do these necessarily imply a higher creativity?

Williams: I think the answer is “not.” As with other behavioral relationships, there is a statistically higher probability of the cooccurrence of nonconformity and creativity, but I doubt that this is a necessary pair. Sometimes we see the unusual behavior and tend to generalize it, while we simultaneously ignore normal behavior paired with creativity (or another variable). When ability increases to the point of astonishing achievement (creativity), I expect that the odds of seeing very unusual behaviors increases to the point that there is at least some present. It is difficult to reach a confident conclusion about such trait correlations without proper statistical studies to show how strong an effect is and how it may vary between groups and life conditions. Most educated people are familiar with a lot of the names of artistic and scientific geniuses, but may not know the details of their lives.

Another aspect of behaviors is that, if we look closely at individuals we would consider to be not extreme, everyday folks, we would still find lots of unusual behaviors, including some that might happen more often among highly creative people. My take on Plomin’s comments about spectrums of traits is that these apply to many of the things we observe in both exceptional and “normal” people.

Jacobsen: If experts are measuring creativity or proposing measurements for creativity within the human population, technically, these could be scaled for comparison, not necessarily a Gaussian curve or something like this, but this seems like a natural consequence. Some people score higher on a creativity measurement than others, whether quantitative or qualitative, so would count as more creative. Yet, the question arises about lifespan effects. In that, some aspects of creativity may decline over time, remain stagnant, or may increase over time. In principle, is ranking creativity a prospect before us?

Williams: Any test that has some validity in measuring creativity will produce a distribution. The exact shape of the distribution may vary as a function of how the test is designed and the population to which it is applied. I have never seen a creativity distribution curve, such as the ones that are commonly shown in intelligence literature. If we think about the likely output of a biographical list of honors received for creative work, I would expect that it would show a near zero value for most people and only show positive results for people who are obviously creative. In the sense that we can see creativity, it mirrors intelligence in the sense that it is not hard to identify someone who is shockingly brilliant or who is obviously retarded. Tests are not needed and even middle level effects (above or below average) are obvious enough that our observations are unlikely to vary much from measurements. In the case of creativity, I think someone can easily see brilliant composition and see that most people show much less ability.

Jacobsen: What happens to creativity over the lifespan?

Williams: Age effects presumably show up in various categories of creativity. It certainly happens in scientific creativity. As for artistic creativity, I am less confident that it is a strong effect. It is easy enough to recall conductors who continued to perform with little decline in quality, up to near the end of their lives. I can think of some classical music performers who did much the same. The things that the brain has to do to create art are certainly different than the things it has to do to write and solve equations that describe the physical universe. We see that Nobel Prizes (in science) are overwhelmingly given for work that was done early in life. Einstein’s Miracle Year (1905) included four profound papers that changed physics; he was 26 years old.

Jacobsen: Who does Piffer count as BigC (true genius)? What are his examples of ProC via professions and creative people in them?

Williams: I recall a mention of a few true geniuses in a paper that was probably Piffer, but I don’t know if I still have it or not. The ProC category includes both the arts and the sciences. Most people are more familiar with the true geniuses in the arts and sciences. ProC, as I understand his meaning, is a category that is not about genius, but about people who are able to have successful careers that are based on their high levels of creativity. The names of these people will be known to many of their career peers, but not to the general public. Those who are widely known are usually those who were closely covered by the news media (various reasons, often unrelated to their actual creative output).

Jacobsen: Akin to Johnson and Bouchard’s work showing the top 5 g loadings, does a similar factorization exist for creativity within measurements of creativity? This is a helpful representation of an advancement on the research of g, as 1) a factor in life and 2) a consistently measurable phenomenon in global information processing within the remit of the human nervous system.

Williams: As we discussed in an earlier set, Piffer has argued that a general factor is unlikely. Researchers have done principal components analysis and factor analysis relating to creativity, but I have not seen claims that they have found and shown expert agreement that there is a general factor. These have clusters of related traits that might define a factor that is common to the clustered components. Certainly, there is little mention of a general factor in the creativity literature. There is more support for a general factor of personality (Rushton was writing about this near the end of his life.), but papers on personality are not focused on a general factor of personality in the same way as is common in intelligence research.

Intelligence is powerfully related to quality of life and achievement. At low IQ, life outcomes can be harsh, but this doesn’t happen for low creativity. A person with very little creative ability may still have a happy and productive life, unless that lack of creativity is the direct result of low intelligence. Creativity matters when it is high enough to sustain a livelihood or to produce an eminent artist, engineer, or scientist (as we previously discussed). Below the Pro-C level creativity is much less important at the individual level.

Relating to Johnson and Bouchard’s work, I learned something from Wendy Johnson that I had previously overlooked. The loading of a given factor is dependent on the structure of the test from which it was extracted. For example, if there are more or fewer test items that relate to a given broad ability, that broad ability will show a higher or lower g loading. This explains some of the differences that are reported for the g loadings of various factors. In their work, Johnson and Bouchard used the largest battery of tests that has ever been reported and extracted a structure of intelligence that is probably the most true to nature that exists. The reason I was discussing this with Wendy was that I was curious about the high g loading of the Pedigrees test. Bouchard mentioned the test multiple times as the highest g loading of any test. I later discussed it with him and learned how the test works and that it dates back to the relatively early days of intelligence test development.

Jacobsen: Could there be a negative correlation between very high levels of creativity and very high levels of intelligence in brain efficiency? Where, a highly intelligent brain uses less energy than a less intelligent one to come to a more parsimonious answer to a problem. Whereas, a highly creative person may require more resources burned in their brain to construct more elaborate novel constructs. If so, this would imply a disjunction between high intelligence and high creativity. Unless, a highly intelligent brain with high creativity, somehow, does require less energy than a highly intelligent and less creative person, but still would need less to get a creative result than an unintelligent person with high creativity.

Williams: That’s an interesting thought. I don’t think there are any studies of glucose metabolism as a function of creative output. I think the problem lies in the nature of the end product. In the case of intelligence, Haier’s work shows that more efficient brains are more intelligent. This initial hypothesis has turned out to be a general condition in which various measures of brain efficiency show that high efficiency (in networks, tissue integrity, etc.) is an indication of high intelligence. These observations necessarily apply to narrow tests, such as doing a puzzle, and not to complex end results, such as designing a rocket engine or writing artificial intelligence software. Such tasks happen over long time periods. But we can relate the lab experiment (efficiency measurement) to the very long task because the task is strongly related to a latent trait (g). Without efficiency measurements (they may exist, but I haven’t seen them) for creativity, we have the relationship between established creative ability and multiple end products, but the efficiency part is missing. A number of relatively recent papers have argued that there is a connection between intelligence and creativity, which may provide an indirect link to brain efficiency.

My impression is that some creative people work very fast and some plod along with lots of revisions, but both manage to reach finished works that meet the face value of high level creativity. I once watched a film of Picasso painting and was amazed at the speed with which he created a painting, but he would then overpaint it multiple times (also quickly). We occasionally read about symphonies and novels that were produced over long spans of time and those (Mozart) that were done quickly. It is not obvious that brain efficiency is a factor in these, but it may account for such differences. Curiously, Jensen described how Beethoven started the composition of a symphony from a simple structure, then went over it repeatedly, making changes that increased its complexity and appeal, until the final version was achieved. This is similar to what Picasso was doing, except that Picasso did not add complexity but simply changed the impact of the painting repeatedly, until he had a result that suited his intent.

The efficiency hypothesis may, in fact, be reversed for creative output. It is the inefficient brain that is likely to bring in more remote associations because of low tissue integrity, less efficient networks, and low inhibition. These are probably going to cause increased glucose uptake rates in the brain.

Jacobsen: With the PFIT network as important for intelligence and problem solving, could there be a generic partially diffuse network rather than a singular structure (a lobe, etc.) responsible for much of the conscious problem solving determined as intelligence or I.Q., where much of the rest of the brain is devoted to sensing, motor skills, and feeling? Something like a diffuse network functioning outward from BA10 for conscious discrimination and associational matrix problem solving making sense of the data fed through BA10 through a field of conscious thought.

Williams: Network study is a big thing now that researchers have tools to study white matter tracts (diffusion tensor imaging in particular). The network that I have seen mentioned repeatedly, in connection with creativity, is the default mode network. It clearly plays a role in creativity. Some studies have focused on the interplay between networks, suggesting rapid switching from one network to another, in much the same way as early computers used task switching when they did not have preemptive multitasking. My guess is that, with increasing study and improved imaging tools, there will be models based on networks, switching, and interplay. These presumably will also involve creative task execution. Given the central role of BA10 in intelligence, I would assume that it is also central to creative processing and performs the same integration function.

Jacobsen: How important are Wai, Lubinsky, and Benbow, currently, to the higher study of intelligence?

Williams: They have a near monopoly on the topic. Most intelligence research is focused on the middle of the IQ spectrum. Julian Stanley started the Study of Mathematically Precocious Youth when Camilla Benbow was working with him (probably a student). SMPY became a longitudinal study that had 5 cohort groups. Benbow inherited ownership of the ongoing study from him and it continues today as the most productive study of very bright individuals. It has been ongoing for about 50 years, so there are data for important life outcomes. One of the most significant findings of the study is that there is a large difference within the top 1% of intelligence, favoring increasing intelligence. Among the variables that increase with increasing intelligence are the number of doctorates, peer reviewed publications, STEM publications, STEM doctorates, income, and STEM tenure.

Jacobsen: How does Rex Jung see the different forms of creativity scientific and artistic emergent from a single source in creativity, so fundamentally the same?

Williams: When I asked him if he thought that artistic creativity and scientific creativity are the same, he said “yes.” I think this was based on the two things he used as primary markers: the alternative uses test and the Creative Achievement Questionnaire. With those two items, the difference (scientific/artistic) is presumably not evident.

Jacobsen: How did Arthur Jensen see intelligence as more integral to scientific creativity than artistic creativity, so, in a sense different from Jung, something more fundamental to scientific endeavours than artistic?

Williams: As I recall, Jensen believed that intelligence was not a significant factor in artistic creativity, but was probably a significant factor in scientific creativity. My perspective on this is that the depth of knowledge of a scientific discipline is strongly correlated with intelligence and that knowledge is an essential ingredient in manipulating scientific ideas. Creativity in science is often seen in the formation of an unlikely hypothesis, followed by the task of validating it from experiments and mathematical models. If we compare that to the creativity of an artist, we see that art demands idea generation that makes a subjective impression on the viewer. This is quite different from the scientific product that is supported by testing, replication, modeling, etc. In science, there is nothing subjective about getting something right; there is a subjective zing to seeing the brilliance of new insight.

Jacobsen: Based on your speculation, how would individual flashes of creativity integrated over time with non-creative activity provide a basis for comprehension of creativity regarding output? In this sense, intelligent integrative activity would be necessary, not for creativity but, for unifying the original creative insights into a unified work.

Williams: As a speculation, I would say “yes.” In any case, “intelligent integrative activity” would be necessary for combining the “multiple flashes of creativity.” This idea would be an interesting one for someone to pursue as a study. I doubt that it has been done and imagine that it would at least be possible, using an approach such as interviews, self-reports, etc.

Jacobsen: What about developmental cascade effects? Where, a singular large change in a brain network or structure in early life alters overall brain structure and processing through development into full maturity leading to a much more novel neurology compared to the general population. I would assume this happening in dysfunctional ways more than functional ways as a matter of the law of averages.

Williams: It certainly makes sense that this would turn out badly most of the time. One way that such developmental issues can be observed is via fluctuating anisotropy (FA). This is commonly used in biological sciences as an indicator of developmental instability. It is simply a measure of nonsymmetry, based on bones in the wrists, ankles, etc. The idea is to measure where there is little fat. More FA means lower IQ (and other issues). The correlation with IQ varies widely from about zero to 0.40. One reason for the range of correlations is that head size is a confound. There is a similar relationship between facial symmetry and IQ. Various studies have found that people can guess IQ from photographs of faces. And one study showed that childhood environmental factors are associated with SES. These generally support the notion of early developmental problems having longterm impact on the individual.

Jacobsen: Are there drugs, prescription or not, that, in fact, increase creativity for the duration of efficacy in the body?

Williams: Yes. One of the well known factors is alcohol. I even recall a study of creativity among people who were evaluated when they were drunk. In The Cambridge Handbook of the Neuroscience of Creativity there are discussions of particularly strong drinking problems among writers. This book also discusses clinical drugs that have some impact (positive and negative) on creativity. These generally fall into categories of dopaminergic drugs, sedatives, serotonin reuptake inhibitors, antidepressants, moodstabolizing drugs, and the often mentioned recreational drugs (remember the 60s). This category is an example of an inverted U distribution, where more of the drug is initially beneficial, but a point is reached when the impact of the drug (on creativity) declines because the individual becomes impaired.

Jacobsen: Why does true genius tend to isolation?

Williams: Various researchers have written about the personalities of true genius. These rare creative people typically suffer from nasty dispositions. Jensen: “In many creative geniuses, this potential for actual psychosis is usually buffered and held in check by certain other traits, such as a high degree of ego strength. That psychoticism is a constellation of characteristics that persons may show to varying degrees; such persons may be aggressive, cold, egocentric, impersonal, impulsive, antisocial, unempathic, toughminded, and creative. This is not a charming picture of genius, perhaps, but a reading of the biographies of some of the most famous geniuses attests to its veracity.” [Benbow, C. P., & Lubinski, D. J. (Eds.). (1996). Intellectual talent: Psychometric and social issues. Johns Hopkins University Press.]

Jacobsen: Why does true genius tend towards no progeny?

Williams: The personality traits of true geniuses (discussed above) do not bode well for a social life and may be at least part of the explanation for why they often do not marry. There is a well established negative correlation between IQ and fertility rate (measured relative to women) which has been argued in the literature as the cause of a slow but real decline in mean IQ in developed nations. In the case of geniuses, this is presumably a factor.

Jacobsen: If you could pick only one high intelligence or high creativity, which would you choose?

Williams: For me, the answer is simple: intelligence. The reason is simply that the baggage that accompanies high creativity is not appealing. In general, higher intelligence leads to mostly desirable life outcomes, while high creativity often does not.

Jacobsen: What are the cold hard truths known about intelligence research and about theoretical constructs proposed to explain intelligence now?

Williams: I love this question as it hits directly at the things that are widely not understood, even by bright, educated people.

Mother Nature did not create brains according to a PC project plan. Instead, she opted to make intelligence hugely important and did not compensate people who happen to fall at the low end of the spectrum. I think a good way to view intelligence is by a list of correlates. There is at least one positive correlate that does not imply a desirable outcome: myopia, correlated at about r = 0.20 to 0.25 (given by both Jensen and Storfer). It is not the result of “nearwork.” Jensen: “Children in classes for the intellectually gifted (IQ > 130), for example, show an incidence of myopia three to five times greater than the incidence among pupils in regular classes.” [from The g Factor]

Otherwise, positive correlations are beneficial, while negative correlations are not. The “cold hard truth” of this is that life is increasingly more favorable at higher and higher levels of intelligence and is increasingly more difficult at lower and lower levels. I made the list below a couple of years ago, to illustrate the unfair nature of the IQ spectrum:

positive (+) correlation with intelligence

income

longevity

general health

life satisfaction

body symmetry

vital capacity

grip strength

educational achievement (grades, years completed, difficulty of major)

SES (a product of intelligence, not a cause of it)

speed of mental functions, including response to a stimulus and sensitivity to a short stimulus

memory

learning rate

number of interests (held with competence)

job performance

brain efficiency (relative to glucose uptake rate)

sperm quality

negative (-) correlation with intelligence

smoking

HIV infection

crime

time incarcerated

school dropout

teen pregnancy

fertility rate

illegitimate births

unemployment

At the national level, mean national IQ correlates positively with per capita GDP, economic growth, economic freedom, rule of law, democratization, adult literacy, savings, national test scores on science and math, enrollment in higher education, life expectancy, and negatively with HIV infection, unemployment, violent crime, poverty, % agricultural economy, corruption, fertility rate, polygyny, and religiosity.

The correlates I listed range from moderate to small, but are important because small effects can coexist and are usually small because of the presence of large amounts of noise. When very large groups are considered, noise tends to cancel out, which is why national level comparisons typically have high correlations. An examination of the lists reveals that several factors relate to physical wellbeing. This is frequently discussed in the literature as relating to an overarching fitness factor that encompasses physical health, mental health, intelligence, and physical robustness.

These correlates are all the more cold and hard, when we consider that intelligence is determined at the moment of conception [Using DNA to predict intelligence; Sophie von Stumm, Robert Plomin; Intelligence 86 (2021) 101530.]; the environmental impacts are negative (lower intelligence); and the range of intelligence is huge. Group differences in mean IQ (or g) account for group differences the factors I listed for national outcomes.

Jacobsen: What countries leaders take these seriously without ideological commitments to distort them?

Williams: Some years ago, a friend loaned me a book about Indonesia. There was a fair amount of discussion in it about the highly diverse population and the realistic understanding of how intelligence was a factor that differed between the internal groups. I unfortunately cannot recall the title of the book and am not sure if it was discussing the time Sukarno was president. I think that was the case.

Otherwise China is very much aware of the importance of intelligence and in conducting intelligence research on a large scale. This huge effort is discussed in Haier, R. J. (2017). The Neuroscience of Intelligence, Cambridge University Press. Western nations have gone in the wokePC direction of denial and counter productive policies. I don’t see a path towards rational, factual thinking (about this issue) in the West.

Footnotes

[1] Retired Nuclear Physicist.

[2] Individual Publication Date: July 1, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/williams-5; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

*High range testing (HRT) should be taken with honest skepticism grounded in the limited empirical development of the field at present, even in spite of honest and sincere efforts. If a higher general intelligence score, then the greater the variability in, and margin of error in, the general intelligence scores because of the greater rarity in the population.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Bob Williams on Schizotypy, Creativity, Genius, Johnson and Bouchard, PFIT and BA10, Wai, Benbow, Lubinsky, Rex Jung, and Arthur Jensen: Retired Nuclear Physicist (5)[Online]. July 2022; 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/williams-5.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, July 1). Conversation with Bob Williams on Schizotypy, Creativity, Genius, Johnson and Bouchard, PFIT and BA10, Wai, Benbow, Lubinsky, Rex Jung, and Arthur Jensen: Retired Nuclear Physicist (5). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/williams-5.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Bob Williams on Schizotypy, Creativity, Genius, Johnson and Bouchard, PFIT and BA10, Wai, Benbow, Lubinsky, Rex Jung, and Arthur Jensen: Retired Nuclear Physicist (5). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A, July. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/williams-5>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Bob Williams on Schizotypy, Creativity, Genius, Johnson and Bouchard, PFIT and BA10, Wai, Benbow, Lubinsky, Rex Jung, and Arthur Jensen: Retired Nuclear Physicist (5).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/williams-5.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Bob Williams on Schizotypy, Creativity, Genius, Johnson and Bouchard, PFIT and BA10, Wai, Benbow, Lubinsky, Rex Jung, and Arthur Jensen: Retired Nuclear Physicist (5).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (July 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/williams-5.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Bob Williams on Schizotypy, Creativity, Genius, Johnson and Bouchard, PFIT and BA10, Wai, Benbow, Lubinsky, Rex Jung, and Arthur Jensen: Retired Nuclear Physicist (5)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/williams-5>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Bob Williams on Schizotypy, Creativity, Genius, Johnson and Bouchard, PFIT and BA10, Wai, Benbow, Lubinsky, Rex Jung, and Arthur Jensen: Retired Nuclear Physicist (5)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/williams-5.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Bob Williams on Schizotypy, Creativity, Genius, Johnson and Bouchard, PFIT and BA10, Wai, Benbow, Lubinsky, Rex Jung, and Arthur Jensen: Retired Nuclear Physicist (5).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): July. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/williams-5>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Bob Williams on Schizotypy, Creativity, Genius, Johnson and Bouchard, PFIT and BA10, Wai, Benbow, Lubinsky, Rex Jung, and Arthur Jensen: Retired Nuclear Physicist (5)[Internet]. (2022, July 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/williams-5.

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Conversation with Luis Ortiz on Family, Intelligence Scores, and Views: Member, Glia Society (1)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: July 1, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,587

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Luis Ortiz is a Member of the Glia Society. He discusses: growing up; an extended self;’ the family background; peers and schoolmates; the purpose of intelligence tests; high intelligence discovered; geniuses; the greatest geniuses in history; a genius from a profoundly intelligent person; some work experiences and educational certifications; the idea of the gifted and geniuses; some social and political views; the God concept; science; some of the tests taken and scores earned; the range of the scores; and ethical philosophy.

Keywords: family, Glia Society, intelligence, I.Q., Luis Ortiz, self.

Conversation with Luis Ortiz on Family, Intelligence Scores, and Views: Member, Glia Society (1)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: When you were growing up, what were some of the prominent family stories being told over time?

Luis Ortiz[1],[2]*: Nothing interesting. I only remember anecdotes about myself only. For instance, when I was about two years old. It had recently been Christmas and in the living room of the place where I was living at the time there was a Christmas tree with the lights disconnected. I remember getting up in the middle of the night to go to the Christmas tree and plug it in. My parents mention that they were scared because at some point in the night they woke up and realized the tree was on and thought maybe someone had broken in. When they checked, it turned out to be me looking at the tree.

I remember this fact myself but somewhat vaguely.

Jacobsen: Have these stories helped provide a sense of an extended self or a sense of the family legacy?

Ortiz: No.

Jacobsen: What was the family background, e.g., geography, culture, language, and religion or lack thereof?

Ortiz: I come from a Catholic family that was very religious back then when I was a child. Nowadays they are not so religious anymore but they are still very spiritual. Regarding the geographical origins I do not know many details. I only know that part of the family is of Spanish origin. This is quite common in Mexico, actually. I guess it is still remarkable because I can tell that the phenotype of my family, in terms of appearance and personality, tends to differ a lot from the typical one here in Mexico.

Jacobsen: How was the experience with peers and schoolmates as a child and an adolescent?

Ortiz: Bad, I would add. I recall being a somewhat eccentric child but still remarkably normal for the first 5 years of my life. In primary school, around 6 years old, things started to get bad. I recall feeling extremely bored. I never payed attention. The vast majority of time it was me playing with my school utensils. Strangely, this habit lasted until about the age of 9 years, and I recall getting bullied for that. I recall people making fun of me because I was an eccentric child talking alone while playing with whatever was within my reach. I remember this myself. Everything was more or less normal and when I entered to primary school, some months thereafter I began to feel school so boring and decided to distract myself doing other things.

I had to receive attention from a psychologist from that school because I suddenly became from normal to a bad student. The psychologist in question succeeded in helping me improve my performance, but then my mother decided to just move out from the city I was living in back then and I got transferred. From there on, none of the schools I went (yes, there were more transfers) had any psychologist and never went to see any despite the obvious abnormalities. My performance declined so badly that I repeated third grade and almost fourth. But this is irrelevant to the point of the question.

Even though I made some friends I was alone most of the time. And the fact that I transferred many times did not helped.

Basically, during my childhood, my experience consisted of some loneliness in school, being occasionally accompanied by one friend. I tried to play soccer with other kids in order to be more “normal” and incorporate but I was too bad for that. I guess it was my lack of practice, the fact that soccer is a mainstream sport practiced almost daily for years by almost anyone going to school, and some lack of talent from me.

I remember there was a mate in a Christian school I went who liked to feign being possessed by the devil. He boasted so much about being evil itself and being the son of satan. Curiously, this kid was actually a Christian. He was joking, obviously, but the way in which he did so was far unusual. I do not remember any other religious Christian being anywhere close to reassemble that.

Around my teenage years I stabilized more towards normality but still was very abnormal and could not fit as expected. These were terrible years for me. I had problems with my family and had to transfer many times again from one school to another. I lost contact with the few friends I made like 3 times.

In sum, my general experience is characterized by being someone abnormal with a small group of friends and occasionally trying to fit in with normies. Nowadays I am surprised by the fact that it took me years to realise how different I was from normies and the obvious fact that I was never going to fit.

I could go on but I guess this is enough to show that it was a bad experience generally speaking. This left me some deep psychological wounds, because whenever I see references on memes and jokes about usual school situations, or anything related, I tend to feel uncomfortable and furious. I developed a deep hatred towards school, the way in which basic education is taught here and some behaviours displayed by mexican teens.

I confess I would love to have a regular school experience or something better, like the stuff you see on movies, TV shows and anime series, but I guess I was too abnormal for that. Not to mention the problems with my parents and the fact that mexicans really need something like 15 additional I.Q. points.

Jacobsen: What is the purpose of intelligence tests to you?

Ortiz: They are useful tools for assessing people’s intellectual potential. Although imperfect, they are still informative and useful for detecting high I.Q.’s. If someone is intelligent enough to deserve special education, it should be mandatory to receive it. Forcing highly intelligent people to pass through the regular curriculum could bring severe problems. I suspect that was a strong reason behind my failure at school, besides my deviant personality.

As for high range I.Q. tests, I think they are entertaining and challenging. I enjoy the feeling that comes when a solution to a hard and tough problem comes. They also help people in gaining insight into their aptitude profile.

Jacobsen: When was high intelligence discovered for you?

Ortiz: Around 11 years old. I never suspected that I was intelligent before that. Actually it was the opposite. I had the idea that I was a little bit mentally retarded. This was because I never fitted in in school and spent most of my free time playing videogames, watching t.v., playing alone, surfing the web and so on. It never occurred to me that I could be an intelligent individual mainly because I never gave myself the opportunity to manifest my potential, and neither school nor my family did so, I was a problematic child and never fitted in well in school. Because of this, my self-esteem got a little bit undermined. Actually, at some point I recall feeling totally useless. So I thought I was simply not suited for anything related using the brain.

I recall surfing through Youtube until finding, by accident, a video which showed a comparison between the sizes of different planets and stars. For some reason I liked that video and watched it many times. After that I found a documentary about the sun and found it interesting. I watched many documentaries eventually. At some point I watched so many documentaries that I became very well articulated and informed about many arcane subjects which no one cared, then changed my mind about my capacity. Something bizarre about this is the fact that my high intelligence was so obvious that everyone was very well aware of it, but no one did absolutely anything. This is when my psychological wounds emerge again, whenever I see those prodigy children on the media sometimes I can not avoid feeling bad for never receiving any proper education and attention (prodigy children are recognized because they often receive proper attention early in their lives). Rather, I got forced to pass through regular school with its obvious shortcomings.

Jacobsen: When you think of the ways in which the geniuses of the past have either been mocked, vilified, and condemned if not killed, or praised, flattered, platformed, and revered, what seems like the reason for the extreme reactions to and treatment of geniuses? Many alive today seem camera shy – many, not all.

Ortiz: A genius, in my view, is a highly creative person, a person who makes outstanding contributions to a given field. Someone who brings up new brilliant ideas and fundamental changes in a discipline, someone who makes actual advances. It is hard for me to define what constitutes actual advances but at least they are not hard to recognise, specially in the case of exact sciences. Creativity, by its very nature of bringing something new, often breaks down the usual beliefs, old ideas and dogmas, that people hold. Therefore it tends to offend vested interests and people who like to believe in lies, the irrational and often unprincipled; at the same time, tends to gain respect from those more predisposed towards accepting and appreciating real advance. Hence, a genius, being a supreme manifestation of creativity, will tend raise extreme reactions.

Paul Cooijmans mentioned that creativity is the expression of awareness. This does make sense to me. Being creative requires both inner drive and novel insights. Only an aware brain would arrive at novel ideas and have the self-drive required to develop these ideas. Edward Dutton and Bruce G. Charlton in their book “The Genius Famine” mention that genius is an Endogenous personality, a combination of innate high ability, inner motivation and intuitive thinking. They put some emphasis on the fact that Endogenous personality is an inner oriented, self driven kind of person. I receive the impression that this is the result of something special happening inside the head of a person with creative potential. It could be that extreme reactions are the result of people perceiving something unusual regarding the individual in question.

Jacobsen: Who seem like the greatest geniuses in history to you?

Ortiz: I would mention anyone who is considered a scientific genius and who has achieved extraordinary feats in advancing science, philosophy and arts. Beyond that, it is hard to identify who would undoubtedly qualify as genius as already defined here. To name some examples include Isaac Newton, Christiaan Huygens and Galileo Galilei.

Jacobsen: What differentiates a genius from a profoundly intelligent person?

Ortiz: A profoundly intelligent person is someone with a very high I.Q., say, something like being three standard deviations above the mean (145 points; the top 0.135% of the population). While having a high I.Q. is a necessary condition for the outstanding creative achievements that characterizes a genius, it is not sufficient. Therefore, the main difference lies in personality and the way in which genius is predisposed to see and perceive the world. A profoundly intelligent person may be very well creative or just normal, whereas a genius is a very rare kind of individual whose personality comprises some traits which are very rare to find strongly expressed in the very same individual. I refer the reader to Cooijmans’ articles about genius, Edward Dutton’s book “The Genius Famine”, Hans Eysenck’s “Genius. The natural history of creativity”, and Arthur Jensen’s (this appears in the book Intellectual Talent: Psychometric and Social Issues) “Giftedness and Genius: Important Differences”.

The latter provides a good illustration of what is a genius and what is a profoundly intelligent person. It draws a distinction by describing the case of Ramanujan and Hardy.

Jacobsen: What have been some work experiences and educational certifications for you?

Ortiz: Menial and uninteresting jobs only. No remarkable credentials for the moment. I only finished what is the equivalent of high school here.

Jacobsen: What are some of the more important aspects of the idea of the gifted and geniuses? Those myths that pervade the cultures of the world. What are those myths? What truths dispel them?

Ortiz: One important aspect is the distinction already made here between intellectual capacity and potential for creative achievement.

“Genius” is used in a lightly way often. People showing talent, prodigy childs and profoundly intelligent people in general are sometimes labeled as geniuses. I would not put in doubt the value of these kinds of people, but I think “genius” should be reserved for something more elevated. Supremely creative people, of course.

As for using the word gifted, I refer the reader to Cooijmans’ article “Reasons to avoid the term “gifted””. It is helpful in providing an understanding of the importance of an accurate employment of words, not just in regards to high intelligence.

Jacobsen: What are some social and political views for you? Why hold them?

Ortiz: I am not decided yet on this matter. But, for the moment, I would mention that classical liberalism seems attractive to me. Classical marxism, in contrast, and anything deriving from it, seems terribly loathsome.

But leaving that aside. I strongly support some specific measures. For instance, Cooijmans’ idea of vote weighting based on intelligence; Wim Rietdijk’s idea of interviewing with lie detectors relevant politicians, journalists, business people, etc. Interviews with very specific and straightforward questions: “what is your actual interest? Are you working for someone else? Do you have an interest in destroying our current democratic society?”. A reason to support this is to make it hard for bad and incompetent people to ascend and occupy any position of power and significance in society, and easier for naturally competent, good, intelligent people with a genuine interest in advancing society.

Also I think eugenics is vastly important. Intelligence and good character are among the pillars of civilization. Without these things a successful society in perpetual advance is not possible. Since these things are mostly genetic, some measures should be taken to make them abound. There should exist policies encouraging intelligent and good natured people to procreate more, and procreation from criminals should be banned completely. Unfortunately, it has become heresy to talk about eugenics in this way. This is so sad. Without it, societies are condemned to rise and fall endlessly with the constant risk of losing everything with every decay. Not to mention the constant threat of natural disasters with the potential to end life as we know it. Without a powerful civilization able to survive or counter these disasters, humanity is at risk of disappearing forever leaving little or no trace. For these reasons, and more, I think eugenics is among humanity’s most powerful weapons against life’s cruelties.

Jacobsen: Any thoughts on the God concept or gods idea and philosophy, theology, and religion?

Ortiz: I think this matter is very complicated. First, on the concept of god: I am skeptical about the existence of any god or “superior intelligence”. I suppose god must have a mind or a kind of awareness not dissimilar from the kind of awareness we have. Otherwise probably there would not exist the need to call it god. I do not see any “mind” acting out there. I see structure in the universe of course, and minds are complicated structures themselves, but it must be reminded that not all structures are minds!

It could be said that god is acting from some kind of unconditioned reality, but how the heck am I supposed to believe that? I wonder. I care about the real world and its natural causes among things and phenomena, not about supernatural unverifiable things. The rejection of only existing natural causes and events introduces supernatural causes to the world. That is to say that there are things for which there cannot exist any logical explanation working in terms of our world. Any observed potential supernatural phenomenon should be seen as natural because it is acting in our world of natural causes and effects, and as such, constitutes a cause or an effect itself that comes from somewhere. Seeing potential supernatural causes in the world and not giving them any proper explanation, or not seeking one if there is not any available, is a matter of faith, of reasoning errors. You are renouncing, partly at least, to rationality as a medium to derive explanations about the empirical datum and make sense of the world.

As for religion, I am not the kind of atheist who despises religion. I believe people should be left free to choose their religion, as far as it concerns something not dangerous, or choose whether they should be spiritual or not. I do not think it is necessarily bad. Religion often provides people an ethical framework, a meaning of life and the satisfaction of accomplishing an elevated end, of existing for something greater. Provides a sense of leading a meaningful life.

Most humans are unable to make sense of the world logically. They employ supernatural causes in their vision of the world as a consequence. They also need a meaning of life. Religion is what provides these things, a meaning for life and a (crude) model of the world, to them. It is what naturally follows given their limitations, both intellectual and in regards to life’s cruelty.

Jacobsen: How much does science play into the worldview for you?

Ortiz: It is fundamentally important as it helps to grow knowledge about real world. It helps to provide some understanding about the real physical world and myself. I am not competent enough to evaluate scientific theories and models at a technical level yet but I am working on that. I strive to be a polymath proficient in many areas.

Jacobsen: What have been some of the tests taken and scores earned (with standard deviations) for you?

Ortiz: Below are some scores expressed on a scale with the standard deviation being equal to 15, next to the name of the test:

PIGS 2, 155;

Numina4D, 154;

INRC 2018, 146;

Cogitatus Logicae 30, 156;

These are some performances on tests which I consider good. Also, I consider them strongly representative of at least my non-verbal ability. I am planning to take verbal tests on the future to get a better picture.

Jacobsen: What is the range of the scores for you? The scores earned on alternative intelligence tests tend to produce a wide smattering of data points rather than clusters, typically.

Ortiz: About 80 points. My lowest score ever is about 80, if I recall correctly. It was on a test which I decided to finish prematurely. My highest is 164.

Yes, such enormous difference between the lowest and highest score is possible, and perhaps common. The tests are not perfect and always capture something else besides general ability. And even if they could capture the whole of general ability only, people vary in their mental ability across lifetime. You will not perform equally well on a test when old and decaying than when younger and at your peak of general ability. Sometimes I.Q.’s, as is often the case in mainstream psychology, express people’s performance relative to other people of the same age and sex. Even then, people develop and decay at different rates, so again there are no reasons to expect scoring the same even on a hypothetical test measuring general intelligence only, unless abandoning such comparisons and using some absolute scale of intelligence.

Jacobsen: What ethical philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Ortiz: I am not decided about this, too. I work intuitively, as I am aware that both strong reasoning ability and interest in being a good person provide almost instantly and naturally what is needed in order to act ethically. Being ethical is easy when you actually care about it and have high intelligence. I think it is possible to develop universal and objective ethics, and have some access to them. But that requires high intelligence. And as far as I know, I have both an interest on being a good person and a high intelligence.

I normally try to think if what I will do will cause any harm or if there will be any negative consequences. Of course, “negativity” is judged based upon the specific situation and its context. One important thing to keep in mind is the existence of awareness and suffering. A distinction between good and evil makes sense because of these things. Good people act in such a way that perpetuates awareness’ existence and avoids adding as much as possible to the total suffering in the universe.

Something I noticed many people do is putting too much emphasis on protecting others’ feelings. I do not like this. Life is full of uncomfortable situations. Life is essentially, and in part, uncomfortable. Sometimes it is necessary to tell people the most uncomfortable things. Indeed, it is quite usual to get involved in uncomfortable situations with people whom you appreciate.

Actually, I hate this kind of approach. Why should I be forced to consider others’ feelings constantly? It is annoying and to some extent constraining. If people lack any maturity to take whatever I am saying, that is not my problem. It could be argued that my logic could be used to intentionally seek any harm to others’ feelings and then excusing oneself with not doing anything bad. But I am merely arguing that putting too much emphasis on others’ feelings is annoying, unnecessary, something I would not do. Obviously, I would not try to freely annoy people unless they deserve it.

Footnotes

[1] Member, Glia Society.

[2] Individual Publication Date: July 1, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ortiz-1; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

*High range testing (HRT) should be taken with honest skepticism grounded in the limited empirical development of the field at present, even in spite of honest and sincere efforts. If a higher general intelligence score, then the greater the variability in, and margin of error in, the general intelligence scores because of the greater rarity in the population.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Luis Ortiz on Family, Intelligence Scores, and Views: Member, Glia Society (1)[Online]. July 2022; 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ortiz-1.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, July 1). Conversation with Luis Ortiz on Family, Intelligence Scores, and Views: Member, Glia Society (1). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ortiz-1.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Luis Ortiz on Family, Intelligence Scores, and Views: Member, Glia Society (1). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A, July. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ortiz-1>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Luis Ortiz on Family, Intelligence Scores, and Views: Member, Glia Society (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ortiz-1.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Luis Ortiz on Family, Intelligence Scores, and Views: Member, Glia Society (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (July 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ortiz-1.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Luis Ortiz on Family, Intelligence Scores, and Views: Member, Glia Society (1)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ortiz-1>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Luis Ortiz on Family, Intelligence Scores, and Views: Member, Glia Society (1)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ortiz-1.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Luis Ortiz on Family, Intelligence Scores, and Views: Member, Glia Society (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): July. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ortiz-1>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Luis Ortiz on Family, Intelligence Scores, and Views: Member, Glia Society (1)[Internet]. (2022, July 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ortiz-1.

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Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

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Justin Duplantis and Matthew Scillitani on I.Q. and the Young: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society; Member, Giga Society (1)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.D, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: July 1, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,185

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Justin Duplantis is a Lifetime Member of Triple Nine Society. Matthew Scillitani is a member of The Glia Society and The Giga Society. They discuss: the education of the young and the role of education; the importance of parents; Boris Sidis; mental illnesses; individuals who have higher I.Q.s and struggle with mental illness; and highest I.Q. scores.

Keywords: Giga Society, Glia Society, Justin Duplantis, Matthew Scillitani, Triple Nine Society.

Justin Duplantis and Matthew Scillitani on I.Q. and the Young: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society; Member, Giga Society (1)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: You both have overlapping interests in education and psychology, respectively. High intelligence, as measured by I.Q. tests, has been established as mostly hereditary. Recent studies seem to indicate 80% or more genetic contribution to the expression of I.Q. as a metric of intelligence, which seems staggering based on the general poor levels of definite knowledge in psychology. This one seems more so than others. If so, so if taking an evidence-based approach with the most updated scientific findings, what does this mean for the education of the young and the role of education in assistance to the gifted and talented?

Justin Duplantis: It comes down to predisposition. If there is a likelihood that gifted parents will have gifted offspring, there should be ownership taken to pursue this and ensure their children are properly educated.

Matt Scillitani: This result provides some evidence for just how wasted our resources are on mentally handicapped children. If intelligence is 80% or more genetic then there is little point in dedicating so much attention to intellectually disabled kids since there won’t be much improvement anyway. My suggestion is to change the IEP to focus on the smartest rather than the most disabled children and to minimize the resources given to the children in an IEP today.

Jacobsen: What does this mean for the importance of parents and providing a program of enrichment, whether structured advanced guidance or free-roaming with plentiful resources for the kid?

Duplantis: As you referenced through providing various outlets, it is important to understand that there is no one size fits all solution for the education of any group of children and gifted youth are no different. It is about encouraging them to pursue their areas of interest and providing them the proper resources to enable that pursuit.

Scillitani: Schools should probably be well structured and not free-roaming. We can’t trust that children will act in their own best interest and actually learn any material if they’re in a laissez-faire learning environment. Parents should also have little or no voice in how schools are run, by the way. Just because they have a kid doesn’t mean they know anything about child psychology or education. It was always absurd to me how the school system allowed parents to waste so much of their time and have such strong (and ignorant) voices.

Jacobsen: Bill Sidis is, often, pointed out as either a failure, a social outcast, a genius, or a self-isolating intellectual. Whether the myth can be entirely separated from the mythos, he was smart. He was separated from wider society. Was Boris Sidis’ highly structured education appropriate, or not? Would maintaining contact with same-age peers be advisable?

Duplantis: What a loaded question. As indicated above, there is no generalization that can be made, rather assessments need to be individualized. Whilst some children would flourish among their peers, others would feel intellectually stunted. As a child, I enjoyed playing games with my great-grandmother and her friends, rather than going to friend’s house. The intellectual stimulation and adult conversation was refreshing and a dynamic shift from school.

Scillitani: This is a very sad story of how a brilliant young man’s future can be ruined by too ambitious parents and teachers. Of course his education was not appropriate since it stole his childhood and put him under crippling life-long stress. At the very least he should have had some classes with children his age.

Jacobsen: You two may have different opinions on this one. It has been a while, and opinions change. Nonetheless, how much do mental illnesses affect individuals with giftedness compared to the general population?

Duplantis: I suppose it depends upon what one defines as mental illness. There are certain afflictions, if you will, that are more prevalent in the high IQ community. The individuals have to face the feelings of solitude brought on by characteristics of high IQ as well as those of their given afflictions.

Scillitani: Intelligent people tend to handle psychiatric illness better and are diagnosed less often than in the general population. It’s usually that if two people have the same psychiatric illness the smarter of them will have less expression of that illness than the dumber of the two. Severe psychiatric illness combined with intelligence can also sometimes produce genius but such does not happen with a psychiatrically ill idiot. Every genius has a touch of madness as they say.

Jacobsen: What seems to happen with individuals who have higher I.Q.s and struggle with mental illness, psychiatric diagnoses?

Duplantis: Although much is similar, the variance comes in the ability to rationalize not taking medication. Due to the high intellect, they are often able to persuade themselves and others that they are able to handle their govern afflictions free from the oppression of prescribed medications.

Scillitani: It is hard for them. It’s harder for someone who’s not so smart but there is a whole different kind of struggle when you’re intelligent and have a psychiatric disorder. The smart person with depression, anxiety, autism, or whatever is usually going to find it much harder to get help because (1) they’re used to solving problems on their own and (2) they usually know more about themselves than any mental health professional ever could, so why even bother? The therapist will also find it hard to relate with the brilliant patient since it’s much easier to empathize with someone at or beneath yourself than it is to empathize with someone above. Therapists, counselors, and clinical psychologists know what it’s like to make dumb decisions, everyone does, but they can’t understand how we think, and that’s a big issue when you’re trying to help someone change their patterns of thinking and behavior.

Jacobsen: Also, people, may be curious if they don’t know. What were the highest I.Q. scores earned by the two of you? What were the tests (even test plus statistical methodology for extrapolation) used for acquisition of such a high score? T.N.S. and the Giga Society are difficult to enter.

Duplantis: MAT – 548 – just shy of 6SD.

Scillitani: From highest to lowest: Psychometric Qrosswords (190+ 15 S.D.), The Marathon Test – Verbal (176 15 S.D.), Rhyming Riddles (173+ 15 S.D.), Addagrams (173 15 S.D.), The Marathon Test – Numerical (167+ 15 S.D.), The Marathon Test (166 I.Q. 15 S.D.), A Relaxing Test (165 15 S.D.), Splice (164+ 15 S.D.), Dicing with death (162 S.D. 15), and The Piper’s Test (161 15 S.D.) are my ten highest scores to date I believe. I may have a few more 170+ scores but I can’t remember at the moment. I’ve also taken some “mainstream” tests like the W.A.I.S. and have maxed them out since they don’t have very high ceilings. My lowest score of all time was on one of Paul Cooijmans’ Netherlandic tests where I scored 123. I later taught myself Dutch and took another Netherlandic test where I scored 158 to redeem myself though. As for the norming method used in these high-range tests, it’s most often simply “anchoring” one’s scores on other I.Q. tests to their raw score on the object test.

Footnotes

[1] Justin Duplantis works in computational biology and will complete his MBA specializing in data analytics this month. A lifetime member of the Triple Nine Society, he served as an Executive Committee member and Editor of their journal, Vidya. He is a father of two profoundly gifted boys, whom joined him in Mensa membership at the ages of two and three. Justin has interests in high IQ communities, intelligence, and intelligence research, as measured by IQ tests. Beyond that, he is a former professional billiards player and is currently playing in Israel in the Israeli Elite Hockey League (IEHL).

[2] Matthew Scillitani, member of The Glia Society and The Giga Society, is a web developer and SEO specialist living in North Carolina. He is of Italian and British lineage, and is predominantly English-speaking. He earned his bachelor’s degree in psychology at East Carolina University, with a focus on neurobiology and a minor in business marketing. He’s previously worked as a research psychologist, data analyst, and writer, publishing over three hundred papers on topics such as nutrition, fitness, psychology, neuroscience, free will, and Greek history. You may contact him via e-mail at mattscil@gmail.com.

[3] Individual Publication Date: July 15, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-scillitani-1; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

*High range testing (HRT) should be taken with honest skepticism grounded in the limited empirical development of the field at present, even in spite of honest and sincere efforts. If a higher general intelligence score, then the greater the variability in, and margin of error in, the general intelligence scores because of the greater rarity in the population.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Justin Duplantis and Matthew Scillitani on I.Q. and the Young: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society; Member, Giga Society (1)[Online]. July 2022; 30(D). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-scillitani-1.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, July 1). Justin Duplantis and Matthew Scillitani on I.Q. and the Young: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society; Member, Giga Society (1). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-scillitani-1.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Justin Duplantis and Matthew Scillitani on I.Q. and the Young: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society; Member, Giga Society (1). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.D, July. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-scillitani-1>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Justin Duplantis and Matthew Scillitani on I.Q. and the Young: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society; Member, Giga Society (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.D. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-scillitani-1.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Justin Duplantis and Matthew Scillitani on I.Q. and the Young: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society; Member, Giga Society (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.D (July 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-scillitani-1.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Justin Duplantis and Matthew Scillitani on I.Q. and the Young: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society; Member, Giga Society (1)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.D. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-scillitani-1>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Justin Duplantis and Matthew Scillitani on I.Q. and the Young: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society; Member, Giga Society (1)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.D., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-scillitani-1.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Justin Duplantis and Matthew Scillitani on I.Q. and the Young: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society; Member, Giga Society (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.D (2022): July. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-scillitani-1>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Justin Duplantis and Matthew Scillitani on I.Q. and the Young: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society; Member, Giga Society (1)[Internet]. (2022, July 30(D). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-scillitani-1.

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The Greenhorn Chronicles 12: Erynn Ballard on Canadian Equestrianism

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.E, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 22, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 5,720

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Canadian Show Jumping Team veteran Erynn Ballard is one of the top-ranked female show jumping athletes in the world. Her career began with great success in the hunter, jumper, and equitation rings as a junior rider, including becoming only the second Canadian to ever win the ASPCA Maclay National Championships in 1998. One year later, Ballard won the individual gold medal at the 1999 North American Young Riders’ Championship. In 2006, Ballard made her Nations’ Cup debut at the Spruce Meadows ‘Masters’ tournament and helped Canada win for the first time in the event’s history. That same year, she was named ‘Equestrian of the Year’ by her National Federation. Since then, she has accumulated numerous wins at the five-star level. Renowned for her impressive catch-riding abilities, Ballard currently rides for Ilan Ferder Stables, an internationally-respected training and sales operation. She discusses: becoming interested in equestrianism; highly accomplished in several platforms and earning awards in the industry; earliest articles; Maclay Finals; competition; great mentors; influence; a uniform training style; repetition and feel; picking a horse for the body build; Europe; the change; socioeconomic issues of haves and have-nots; career highlights post-Maclay; Canada; sit-down discussions; competitions, events, or speaking engagements; not really doing anything differently; riding; pragmatism and realism; endurance; working; an internal halt once; and career choices.

Keywords: 2024 Paris Olympics, ASPCA Maclay National Championships, Canada, Canadian, equestrianism, Erynn Ballard, Europe, FEI, Geneva, Grand Prix, horse, Kim Kirton, Leslie Reid, Milton, Nations Cup, North America, Ocala, Palm Beach, Pan Am Games, Spruce Meadows, U25.

The Greenhorn Chronicles 12: Erynn Ballard on Canadian Equestrianism

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations after the interview.*

*Interview conducted January 10, 2022.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Let’s start from the beginning, naturally, what were some of the earlier experiences for you, which stood out in terms of becoming interested in equestrianism?

Erynn Ballard[1],[2],[3]: I have been doing it for so long. I don’t know if there is one thing that stood out over another. It was my parents’ business. Before I turned 5, we lived in town, in a small house. Around my 5th birthday, we moved to the farm where I grew up. That was probably the turning point, which was living on the farm with the horses.

I grew up in Milton. It wasn’t until 2005 when my parents moved up North. The farm that we owned was right on the 401. So, it was time to sell the land, then we moved North.

Jacobsen: Obviously, you’re the number 1 ranked equestrian in Canada [Ed. At the time of the interview, now, one of the top-ranked women equestrians in the world]. You’re highly accomplished in several platforms and earning awards in the industry. Was this precocity with horses noted early? Or were you an ordinary rider who worked very hard, or some combination of the two?

Ballard: I don’t know. I don’t know how you become good. I was always good. I won from a very early stage, but I don’t know if people noticed me, at the time. Certainly, I never felt like I was any sort of prodigy. I was just a kid who liked to ride horses and won a lot of classes.

Jacobsen: What were the earliest articles written about you when you started becoming noticed? Do you recall any of those?

Ballard: Probably, the biggest most notable win was when I won Maclay Finals. I was 17 and just turned 18. It is a big equitation final in the U.S. That would have given me, for sure, the most publicity. It is one of the biggest accomplishments you can have as a junior.

Jacobsen: How many juniors take part in that competition in particular?

Ballard: You have to compete at the regionals before you go to the Finals. That year, it was at the Gardens, maybe 185. I don’t know – around there.

Jacobsen: All these ~185 have gone through their own filtration to train, go through competitions, to compete at the ASPCA Maclay Finals. So, when you’re getting trained early on and winning competitions, who do you mark as great mentors for you, trainers?

Ballard: I grew up with my parents. When I was quite young, I went on the road. When I was 10- or 11-years-old, I went on the road to ride ponies with Kim Kirton, who is a trainer in Canada. Then I went into equitation to do it properly in the United States. Missy Clark was my trainer. Still, to this day, those two people are very influential in my life.

Jacobsen: What would you attribute each individual’s influence on you? What particular quality stands out to you?

Ballard: For both of those people, they teach a very individual style. They let each rider be their own selves. Some trainers, you can see. You can pick out that rider rides with that person because they pick up a characteristic of that stable. Missy, certainly, each of her riders; she works on their own strengths. She focuses on those. You become less uniform and more individual if that makes sense.

Jacobsen: Are there areas in which a uniform training style is beneficial?

Ballard: I’m sure. Maybe, people with less natural feel excel in a more uniform training environment, where everything is done the same way. You work solely on repetition. Basically, any good trainer works on repetition, but specific to body type. How you sit on a horse, the first time you sit on a horse; it will be the way you look on the horse, for the most part, for the rest of your life.

I am lucky for this sport. I have a shorter upper body, longer legs, and longer arms. So, it is easier for me to sit in the center of a horse. Missy would work on my individual style as far as how I physically looked on the horse rather than conforming me to a different position. That’s where you have to work on repetition for training, but how you sit on a horse for the first day is how you’re always going to sit on the horse because it’s your place of balance.

Some people with shorter legs and longer upper bodies may have a harder time staying in balance. They can become heavier at the top. People with shorter arms may have a harder time if they are riding lower with a low horse because they may be restricted in their ability to bend their elbows to go with the horse’s balance. They may get stuck because their arm doesn’t give them the freedom to go with the balance.

So, when you’re working on training, and when you’re working with kids developing, you have to focus on their physical build. You have to focus on a horse suitable for them, suitable for their physical build. Then you can focus on their abilities.

Jacobsen: You mentioned repetition and feel. What is the importance of repetition regardless of the training style in equestrianism, generally? What is the importance of feel? I have heard this term a lot as a greenhorn.

Ballard: Feel, you can’t teach. It would be comparable to a golf swing. You can’t teach somebody feel. That’s where repetition comes into place. Feel, you would have to associate that with pure natural ability. Some people have more. Some people have less. You include the repetition. So, maybe, those with less understand how to work a horse’s movements.

So, take, for example, I work on a pole line. Two poles on the ground, not even a jump, every time, I walk my own 22 steps. I do that so every single horse that I ride; I know how they make what should be 5 strides in between those 2 poles feel good. Then I can make 6 strides feel good. The repetition of doing that, making me understand the horse’s stride, also helps with the feel. A feel for 5. A feel for 6.

What do I need to do to make it do 5 strides? What do I need to do to shorten it to make it do 6 strides? So, when I do it, I am, specifically thinking, “What do I need to make the horse do to make it feel good?” When the kids are doing it, the horse should already know how to do it. So, I’m teaching them how to feel how 5 feels good and how 6 feels good.

If I change the distance, if I make it 25 steps or 27 steps, you can still do 5 or 6 strides in between those two poles, but it is not consistent. The repetition of keeping it the same every single time, for me, when I am training a horse or when a kid is doing the same exercise; I am trying through exercise to teach them feel.

Jacobsen: The idea of picking a horse for the body build. I’m intuiting picking the horse with the psychology of the person, so understanding the psychology of the horse as part of the feel. Is that part of the feel?

Ballard: Horses have independent thoughts. That’s a problem. We can’t always control them. So, when I pick a horse for a kid, I do think their body types have to be suitable. If a person has shorter legs, I don’t want to put them on a very wide horse. The shorter their legs are, the wider the horse is, the less comfortably their legs will sit on that horse’s body. In a shorter person, I need to create more length. So, it would be more suitable to put them on a normal-bodied horse. So, from their hips, they have the ability to make their legs longer rather than wider if that makes sense.

If a person has short arms, I don’t want to put them on a horse that has a very long neck. Because like I said earlier, otherwise, they don’t have the ability to bend their elbows. Then they get stuck. If they get stuck, a term we’d use is “hanging” on the horse’s mouth. They can’t take or give. They get stuck there. I do think in order to make a good match; their body types have to match.

They have to suit each other. You have to look at each other together and say, “Those two look good.” If you look at a kid on a horse, and from the get-go it looks awkward, then it will probably feel awkward. It is up to the trainer and up to the person as well. They have to say, “I don’t feel that comfortable on this horse. He is too big (or too small) for me.” If the horse has a shorter front end, and if it is a taller person, they will not feel comfortable because they will be looking over its ears.

The taller person needs a horse out in front of it to control their upper body and help them with their balance. So, I’d say, “That’s education.” It is a feel for training and for finding a horse for somebody.

The psychology of it; we don’t have that much control over the thought of horses. I’ve picked out horses for someone before. In that trial, with a horse, you have two or three times to try it.

Say, from the first day to the third day, the horse is jumping higher and giving more air, and looking more careful. You’re thinking, “Wow! I’m doing a great job.” However, what that horse, actually, told me, I didn’t know. The horse was jumping higher and with more care because he was scared. That fear turned into a bad match. So, sometimes, we pick a horse that doesn’t work. It isn’t necessarily our fault.

That horse couldn’t tell us, “What you see is not what I’m thinking.” For the most part, if a horse goes well, for a rider, then you should be able to manage it in a program. I am always, when I sell a horse to a kid, there to ride it. If the kid makes a mistake, or a horse is green or makes a mistake, I have the ability to get on it and fix it. Even myself, the horse’s I jump in the biggest classes; Ilan (Ferder) trains them. He is bigger and stronger.

He instructs them. Then he puts me on them for the final result. It is the same for the kids. We ride them. The professionals ride them. The bigger, the stronger, person manages the horse. The owner should be able to produce the horse. The better the owner gets, the more they are able to do on their horse. The one thing with equestrianism or horse riding, there is no one way better than another.

There are books on horsemanship, but there are no books on individual styles in training. Each rider picks a person that they want to ride with because they believe in them. Each person that they pick to ride with has their own style and their own program; that’s what makes everyone a little different.

Jacobsen: How is this kind of upbringing, thinking about training, and suitability of a horse to a rider, different from Europe? I’m told in some conversations, though early in the series, granted, about the difference between the Western European and North American mindset about training and selection of rider to horse. It is a little bit different. Is this something that you note as someone more experienced in the field?

Ballard: In the last 20 years, Europe has, definitely, caught up to the North American style of riding. They, certainly, have an edge on the buying, selling, breeding, and the development. So, at your highest level, when you’re talking about the best 100 riders in the world, I don’t think there’s much difference between your European training and North American style training, maybe below that.

The startup, our education is much more sophisticated with the pony-hunters and the equitation, and the customer service. A long time ago in Europe, there weren’t customers. Even individual riders had their own barns, they weren’t involved in a specific training program. Now, even in Europe, the biggest trainers, the biggest dealers, they all have people who work under them as trainers. They have developed our style of training the amateurs, the 1.20, the 1.30, the FEI children.

Even in South America, the best are the best; and it is comparable around the world. North America has a little edge on development. Everyone is developing very fast.

Jacobsen: What convinced them in the last 20 years to make the change (the Europeans)?

Ballard: They saw our success.

Jacobsen: [Laughing] Fair enough.

Ballard: Especially with the amateurs buying expensive horses, the U25 has opened a market for sales. The Europeans always had the horses. It was always the Americans going to Europe to buy the expensive horses. Now, it is hard to go to buy the expensive horses because they are keeping them for their own U25 riders. So, they learned from us.

Jacobsen: Do these socioeconomic issues of haves and have-nots, increasing income disparity, wealth disparity, in many countries in the world, impact this sport from the bottom level and up, as a follow-up to that question?

Ballard: There are a lot of people who gain from it. A lot of professionals and dealers who gain from it, who can sell horses more expensive, who are able to have more opportunities because we are working with wealthier clients. Does it make it harder for the average, middle-class family to keep up? Yes. But I think the world always works itself out and always finds a balance. You take Palm Beach and Ocala. Palm Beach is the best of the best.

It is the most expensive. I could go on and on, and on. In Ocala, they have the World Equestrian Centre, which is – literally – the best facility ever made in all of the world. That man offers free stalls. So, you get to go to Ocala and show at the best facility that has ever existed at, maybe, a 1/3rd of the cost of Palm Beach.

You are gaining opportunity. Maybe, you are not riding against the best people in the whole world, but he is offering ridiculous amounts of prize money, beautiful stables. People can go there as a source of income because the overhead, for once in your lifetime, is less than the money offered in prize money. So, that is giving a huge opportunity to people that, maybe, can’t be here. Maybe, if they win enough there, and if they get seen, and if they are in the spotlight, then they have the chance to go work for somebody or to come to Palm Beach for a week and show off what they have.

There is always a way. I am not really a believer in the idea that if you don’t have the means, then you don’t have the chance. I think there’s always a way. You may have to work harder than some other people. But if you want it bad enough, then you are going to do the work anyways.

Jacobsen: What would you consider some of your career highlights post-Maclay?

Ballard: I mean, so many, but the biggest ones would be winning the Nations Cup in Spruce Meadows twice. For a Canadian team, it has only won the Nations Cup there three times. I was on the first winning team; I was on the third winning team. I was double clear in the Nations Cup in Lima for Canada at Pan Am Games. I got to show in Geneva two weeks ago.

I didn’t have my best results [in Geneva], but it is one of the hardest shows to get into. I had the opportunity to show. Sometimes, it is not always based on results, but on opportunities. At the moment, I am the second highest ranked female rider in the entire world. That’s massive. Every year gets better than the last. On Friday, I won the last Grand Prix in 2021. On Sunday, I won the first Grand Prix of 2022.

In three days…

Jacobsen: …[Laughing] feeling pretty good.

Ballard: [Laughing] that’s pretty cool. Not major classes, but to put that on your resume or to talk about, “I won two Grand Prixes in three days and in two different years.”

Jacobsen: I asked some of the young ladies who I work with, some of whom compete. I said, “Is Erynn Ballard a big thing in your industry?” They paused, and then said, “Yeah.” So… [Laughing].

Ballard: [Laughing].

Jacobsen: Even bigger!

Ballard: Your background is not horses.

Jacobsen: 3 months into it, maybe, I’m working 7 days a week. Basically, landscaping, gardening, basic stable hand work, anything they need. There’s always work to do. I transitioned out of restaurants because it was supporting the independent journalism. I was thinking, “I’m working ~91hrs/week in restaurants. I want to see what it was like working with horses.”

I sent some resumes out. In a week or two, I was transitioned into working at a stable. So, taking a step back, if I am doing these interviews with the small ranches to trail rides to those who do dressage to those who do hunting or jumping, the whole range of equestrianism starting with Canada. I am sending emails out. In some of the preliminary conversations and interviews, including your own, people are in this industry as a lifestyle.

100%, they are in this as a lifestyle. Or if they aren’t, they weren’t intending it as such. It was a foot in the door phenomenon. They slowly ended up sinking into the industry. Now, they’re here. Reflecting on it more, I am getting more information from different perspectives in the industry.

The issues of those running farms or stables. The issues of land cost, property costs rising; and this causing an issue for some being able to survive. For instance, Leslie Reid sold her property who was a big name in dressage.

Is this something on your radar or something who you have conversations with in Canada about some areas of Canada having rising property prices or bylaw restrictions preventing the full flourishing of the sport in their area of Canada?

Ballard: I think the sport in Canada is not in a great way. I think Ontario is struggling without having The Royal and the creation of this Silver Series. I have done an interview about it before. I think the Silver Series offers more for less. As far as showing at the same venues, it costs you less money. Ontario survived for so long with the idea of The Royal.

Without The Royal, people are looking at different ways to spend their money. They may not be looking to buy a second horse or a better horse. I think the Ontario circuit is struggling. I am a little lucky because my parents own a farm. They have the farm in Tottenham. I am not there anymore because I am here full-time, at least while I have this job. This job could last forever. You never know with a job.

I hope it lasts forever. However, you don’t know. Have there been conversations if their upkeep of the farm is worth having? I don’t know the ultimate answer. We are fortunate. We have a beautiful farm. We can run a business off it. I don’t know what the long-term is for ourselves, personally, or for the long-term of the industry in Ontario.

Without me as a full-time presence out there, will the business be enough to balance the overhead? There’s a lot of businesses in Ontario doing quite well because they have nice properties and the locations. The Silver Series is making offers for lower-level stables to do more. So, in a way, there’s growth, but I don’t know if it is the growth that we are looking for to be stronger.

For a while now, the West Coast has had a stronger presence as far as the higher level of the sport. That’s probably because of what Thunderbird has; they’re so close to Washington state and offer the U.S. ratings. So, pre-Covid, I know it was a huge show for Americans to go to; the West Coast has Spruce Meadows, where Vancouver does quite well in the Hunters and Equitation because of their proximity to the U.S.

Spruce Meadows is Spruce Meadows. It is the coolest place to show and everyone wants to go there. I think the West Coast is stronger than the East Coast. I think Ontario is suffering.

Jacobsen: Do the higher ranked performers in hunter and jumper ever have sit-down discussions and meals to discuss these issues?

Ballard: Not really, we’re quite a diverse group of people. We have our own strengths and weaknesses. I am not afraid to talk. People have asked my opinion. If they ask me my opinion, I’ll give it. But some people don’t want to hear it.

The supporters of Silver Series don’t want to hear that, I think; it is doing more harm than good to the highest level of the sport. They’ll come at me with disbelief, which is fine. Maybe, I’m wrong. But I do know there is a gap with what the Silver Series is creating. It is an industry. It is a business. That, I don’t take away from it. It is thriving. I don’t see them taking those riders and turning them into U25 riders and 5-star riders, and riders for Canada.

I see it like being in a club, like a camp. I’ve said many times. Ontario, when it was The Royal, especially, it was an exclusive riding camp. You went to x amount of horse shows a summer to go to The Royal. The way that the layout is in Toronto. Very few people have to pay hotels. They live in Toronto and the shows are quite close and their stables are quite close. They keep the overhead quite low. They know how much it will cost from April to November.

If they have the ability, they go to Florida from December to April, and then go back to camp for the Summer.

Jacobsen: Looking at 2022, what competitions, events, or speaking engagements if you have them, are you looking forward to?

Ballard: Right now, if you’re talking about high performance, we’re working backwards from the 2024 Paris Olympics. So, Paris is the ultimate goal in three years. The easiest way to qualify for Paris is to get a result at the World Championships this year. So, working backwards from Paris, we need to be good enough at the World Championships this year, so we can take some pressure off ourselves at the Pan Ams to qualify for the Olympics this year, and then build for the next two years for Paris.

So, this is probably the most important year moving forward, in terms of high performance. Past that, I simply really like showing. I am looking for more experience in Europe if that comes my way. Right now, I am an employee. I have a great job, but, at the same time, I have to do what I’m told. I don’t necessarily not get to go to pretty cool places. So, I don’t have any complaints.

Jacobsen: Hypothetical, in some future, if you had the freedom to not have to do what you’re told, and only had to do what you wanted to tell yourself to do, what would you do?

Ballard: I’m not really sure if I would do anything differently.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Ballard: I believe you have to go where you are the strongest. You make a plan, accordingly, for the horses that you have with you. If you don’t have the best horses in your string, you don’t go to Spruce Meadows. You stay where you’re competitive. If you have a 1.45m horse, you jump 1.45m. You win at 1.45m. If you have a 1.45m horse, and try to jump 1.55m, and if you’re not making your result, you can’t be mad.

You signed up to not be good. I think that that’s something hard in our sport as far as wherever I go I want to feel like I have the chance to win. I never want to go in over my head. Even going to Geneva, I didn’t have my best horse show, but I had my best horses. My best horses in 5-star, in Mexico, in Spruce Meadows, in Sacramento.

So, I went with my best horses and didn’t have my best show, and that happens too. But I would never go to the biggest show of my life without my best horses. I’d pick another show. There are so many. There are five horse shows every single week. So, you have to make smart choices. Five years from now, it depends on the horses.

If I’m going to not have Grand Prix horses, then I go back to riding hunters. Then I want to ride the best hunters. I want to go to Derby Finals and want to be champion in The Royal in the hunters. The thing about me, I like riding so much. It doesn’t matter where I ride. But wherever I go, I don’t want to lose.

Jacobsen: What’s the feeling of love while you’re riding? Can you add more tone to it?

Ballard: I just don’t think there’s anything else I would do. You meet a lot of people in this sport who are good at riding or, ten years later, as you said, fell into this. Maybe, they are unhappy. Trust me, there are plenty of people. If you talk to everybody, everybody in the whole world, there would be more people who feel like they have to ride or have to be in the industry, because there’s nothing else they can do, rather than people who feel lucky to be in the industry.

There will be a group of people who are lying if they tell you; that they feel lucky to do it every single day. Because not everybody does, but I do.

Jacobsen: My sense of you is two things. One is a pragmatism. Another is a realism. Where you don’t go to a competition ill-equipped, ill-prepared, or with the wrong expectations, the expectations seem accurate and proportional to the reality of the situation. It’s not pessimistic. It’s not pollyannish. Have you noticed other riders who make it – so to speak – who have a different outlook, or are most, at this very high level of competitiveness, pragmatic and realist?

Ballard: I don’t know, actually. I don’t know. That would be up to you, to talk to enough people.

Jacobsen: [Laughing] When I finish with Canada, I will move to other areas to see about the findings. It’s interesting. I am learning along as I do this series. It is very educational. 

Ballard: Also, if you’re only talking to people about horses, then you also have to have a passion for horses. It is not something you can understand if you don’t like them. It’s so foreign to a normal 9-5 job. Because it is a lifestyle. If you didn’t have a sense of the passion people get when they’re around horses, then you wouldn’t enjoy this. Equally, there are people who start out with a passion and get burned out, or get stuck.

They thought that they really wanted to do this. Maybe, they didn’t, but they don’t know what else they can do. They got in over their head. It cost too much money. It is a hard industry to make money, very hard, because the overhead is so high. You make $25,000 a month. But it costs you $35,000 to get to the end of the month.

If you’re talking about a boarding stable, what is the right way to do it. How do you charge enough? So that, at the end of the month, you are not losing money. Where are you making your money? Where do you gain to make it worth your while? When does the lifestyle [Laughing] part kick in? There’s not many Canadians who have the opportunity that I do.

So, I think that that, maybe, is something. I have seen both sides of it. I won my first Nations Cup at Spruce Meadows when I was 25. I didn’t ride on another team for 10 years. I stayed home, made a business, rode hunters, and taught riding lessons. That’s all I could do. That’s all the opportunity I had. I couldn’t go to the horse shows because my horses weren’t good enough.

So, practice what you’re good at and work on the opportunity given to you, it is not a job for the faint at heart. It is not for someone who doesn’t work 24 hours a day.

Jacobsen: Every person who I met who competes and works in the stables, or as a full-time in the stables, have all been incredibly impressive in their own ways. Some have tragic personal histories and have overcome them. The work ethic is there.

Ballard: People are drawn to horses, maybe, if they aren’t good with people.

Jacobsen: That’s an interesting hypothesis, maybe.

Ballard: A connection with the horse that they can’t have with the person. The turnover in my life, as far as clients who ride with me – and people who work for me, is very high, very. Grooms come and go, there’s students, young kids, even riders. A lot of girls ride until they turn 15 or 16. Then they have a choice to make. Are they going to keep riding, to go skiing, to go hang out with boys, to go to university? At the younger age, it is mostly girls.

If a teenager sticks through that stage, maybe, they’re not that social. They don’t love going to the parties on the weekend. Or they struggle with being in a school, in girl gangs. They like horses. They hang out with horses. Then they create a friend group, which they didn’t think they could have in school because they have a common interest with other kids in horses. Maybe, they don’t want to go to university.

They have to work for a living, so they become a groom. Maybe, they want to go to law school, but they don’t have enough money. So, they groom on the weekends. The turnover of people who work in the industry versus me is high, because not everyone is a lifer.

Jacobsen: What do you attribute the endurance to?

Ballard: Mine?

Jacobsen: Yes!

Ballard: I think I’m a crazy person. I just have more energy than most people.

Jacobsen: How many hours a week are you working?

Ballard: Oh! I don’t even want to count!

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Ballard: October, November, December, all of October, all of November, first two weeks of December, I was never in the same place for more than one week.

Jacobsen: That’s a lot.

Ballard: I was back in Florida for a week at a time before I went somewhere else. For three months, basically, I was never in one place for more than a week. By the time I came home from Geneva, I had 7 suitcases packed. I sent one home from California. I sent one home from Vegas. I sent this one with the horses. My garage was an explosion of suitcases.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Ballard: I unpacked every suitcase, but one. I don’t know where all these clothes are going to go. We are gypsies. We live on the road. I went from California to Geneva. I had a bathing suit and the Lululemon puffy jacket that went to my ankles. You never know where you’re going to be. You take your passport with you everywhere.

Because, at a moment’s notice, you can go to Europe and not expect to, “You need to try a horse.” We are high energy people in general.  We don’t need the structure of 9-5 and weekends off. We thrive on this crazy lifestyle. We get to see the world. But yes, most of us are a little bit crazy.

Jacobsen: In spite of the endurance and the affirmation of doing it, whatever “it” is at the time, what moments in your career have you ever felt a halt internally, almost as if, ‘I can’t do this,” or a feeling of “I don’t have enough in me”?

Ballard: I think just the summer I got hurt, which was 2013. I broke my collar bone and my shoulder joint. I shattered my scapula. I was out for 16 weeks. There was a minute, where I was walking around; I was teaching riding lessons. I was going to the horse shows. It is the only time in my life where I hadn’t.

There was a minute. I was like, “I don’t need to ride to make money. I don’t need ever need to get back on a horse to make money. I can teach. I can give clinics. But I don’t have to do that. If I don’t do that, then I won’t ever be hurt like this again.” That lasted a minute until I got back on a horse again. Then it was over.

I think, any time you’re hurt. You’re down anyways. I came back from that stronger than ever. I came back from the injury. Two years later, I was on a team. I hadn’t been on a team in 10 years. Maybe, it was the reset that I needed to figure out what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. I don’t feel that, not yet, anyways.

Jacobsen: When you were a kid, as many Canadian kids do, they write careers that they wanted when they were younger, what they thought they wanted to pursue in the maturity of a child’s mind. Do you recall what those career choices would have been for you?

Ballard: I don’t think there was ever a question.

Jacobsen: Why did you focus on jumping, by the way?

Ballard: That’s the sport that my grandpa was captain of the Canadian team. So, I guess, it is in my blood.

Footnotes

[1] Canadian Show Jumping Veteran.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 22, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ballard-1; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightpublishing.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Image Credit: Jump Media.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 12: Erynn Ballard on Canadian Equestrianism[Online]. June 2022; 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ballard-1.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 22). The Greenhorn Chronicles 12: Erynn Ballard on Canadian Equestrianism. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ballard-1.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 12: Erynn Ballard on Canadian Equestrianism. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E, June. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ballard-1>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 12: Erynn Ballard on Canadian Equestrianism.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ballard-1.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Greenhorn Chronicles 12: Erynn Ballard on Canadian Equestrianism.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E (June 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ballard-1.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 12: Erynn Ballard on Canadian Equestrianism’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ballard-1>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 12: Erynn Ballard on Canadian Equestrianism’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ballard-1.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 12: Erynn Ballard on Canadian Equestrianism.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.E (2022): June. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ballard-1>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 12: Erynn Ballard on Canadian Equestrianism[Internet]. (2022, June 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ballard-1.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

The Greenhorn Chronicles 11: Kailin Howard on Horse Ownership and Care

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.E, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 22, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,759

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Kailin Howard is a horse owner and assistant trainer at Reaching Strides Equestrian Centre. She discusses: horses; first horse; factors to consider when buying a first horse; get a horse to learn the basics; earliest dreams; the importance of the social activity; build rapport with a client and with clientele; important lessons; bottom-up care; the industry; the stewardship of Nadine Bollig; student-teacher relationship; the competitions; horse trainer for a living; and involved with equestrianism.

Keywords: equestrianism, equine, horses, Kailin Howard, Nova Scotia, Reaching Strides Equestrian Centre, trainer.

The Greenhorn Chronicles 11: Kailin Howard on Horse Ownership and Care

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations after the interview.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: How did you get interested in horses?

Kailin Howard[1],[2]*: I’ve loved horses for as long as I can remember. They were my favourite animal as a child and even as an adult I get that excited feeling when I drive by a field and see them grazing. The little girl inside me still goes “Look, horses!” My parents made my dreams come true when I was 8 and put me in lessons and I’ve been hooked ever since. I’m 29 now and the dream is still very much alive.

Jacobsen: When did you purchase your first horse?

Howard: I bought my first horses when I was 21. I had been leasing and showing one of my coach’s horses for a few years at that point and he was the horse I had always wanted. I ended up purchasing him and his pasture companion, a miniature, as a package.

Jacobsen: What are the factors to consider when buying a first horse compared to a second, third, etc., horse? Things like financials, age, quality, breed, pedigree, etc.

Howard: Some major things to consider are just the environment you are providing. Do I have adequate shelter, food, water, and space for them to move? Horses are also a herd animal; they don’t thrive when they are alone. So, when buying that first horse, you also have to consider the fact that you’ll need companionship for it. Or will you board it at a facility? A huge issue we’re having in Nova Scotia right now is that there is a major vet and farrier shortage. So, is there access to emergency medical care? Can my horse get regular trimmings? Finances are, of course, a big consideration; horses are not a cheap animal to have. The older they get the more care they’ll obviously need so in the long term; can you support that horse through every stage of its life and through the problems those stages may have? Pedigree is absolutely something great to search through if you have access to that information. Medical histories, neurological issues you may encounter, all better to know that ahead of purchasing. Picking the right horse for you and where you are at or want to be is crucial. For example, I wouldn’t purchase a horse trained for show jumping to be my cattle penning horse. Get the horse that’s suited to your level of horsemanship. Consult with your coach, trainer, vet, farrier. Use the resources available to you and get those professional opinions.

Jacobsen: How do you get a horse to learn the basics of what a rider needs them to do?

Howard: The basics in getting a horse to understand what I need them to do for me always starts on the ground. Horses rely a lot on body language and reading energy. They’re a flight animal, so training them to go against those natural instincts is not started by throwing a saddle on and climbing up. They react to pressures and a feeling, they’re extremely intuitive. You’ve likely heard the term “horse whispering,” which is both comical and kind of accurate. You can say “go to the right” all day and a horse is not going to move, so you have to communicate with a language they understand, which sort of looks like you’re ‘whispering’ to them. I use a series of exercises on the ground to get them to understand the give and take of pressure, so that when I get to the saddle and I ask them to go to the right with my body; they have an idea of what it is I’m asking them to do. That’s very summarized! Training some takes longer than others, even the basics, can vary greatly from horse to horse.

Jacobsen: What were your earliest dreams with horses as an early equestrian?

Howard: Just being around these animals was enough for me, I never had specific dreams in mind. I was just obsessed with all thing’s horses. My biggest goals once I started riding were mainly jumping related. I thought the older girls were so cool and had no fear when they were doing a course and I wanted to be able to do what they did. They were always riding multiple or different horses as well and I remember wanting that confidence and that knowledge to adjust to each horse just like them.

Jacobsen: What is the importance of the social activity and aspect of equestrianism? I notice this with women equestrians, trainers and clientele. When tacking up, just small chit-chatter is huge, it’s not only a hobby or preparation for competition. It’s a social club.

Howard: It really is! My closest friends are all horse people. The equestrian world in Nova Scotia is fairly small, so everyone pretty well knows everyone; and it’s not hard to get connected to others if you start asking around. You’ve got friends near and far so when we meet up at shows or events it could be the first time you’ve seen that person in years; and it’s like you talked to them yesterday. It’s very timeless in that sense. It’s also a great way to bounce ideas around business wise or for your own personal equestrian journey. Horse people are a different breed; it doesn’t really matter what might necessarily be going on in your personal lives, when equestrians get together you all have a huge common interest that connects you, regardless of even what discipline you are in. We also can’t seem to stop talking about horses. You throw a couple horse people in a room and they’re going to be going on and on for the next few hours.

Jacobsen: How do you build rapport with a client and with clientele as an assistant trainer?

Howard: Staying open, honest and friendly to questions, concerns or any discussions they may want to bring up. Having just as much patience to the learning experience with the clients as we do the animals, a lot of the clients I’ve met over the last few years need to learn the questions I’m asking the horse just as much as the horse does. We don’t believe in just training the horse, but the clients as well.  We can teach the horse how to carry the rider or work on whatever the issue may be but if the client doesn’t understand how to ask the question, how does the horse know how to answer? Like having all the power tools you need to build a house, but no idea how to use them. If the horse has all the answers, but the rider isn’t asking them correctly then that leads to frustration; and you could be taking more steps back than you did forward. Which then leads to an upset client, it comes back on the trainer. Having the client be a part of the training process is critical in my opinion, it sets both horse and rider up for a more successful relationship in the future.

Jacobsen: What are some of the more important lessons taught by the more senior trainers?

Howard: To have patience no matter how you’re feeling. Your feelings don’t matter, you have to leave them outside the ring. Horses can feel your emotions by reading your energy and body language. If you’re already frustrated or anxious, the horse thinks they have a reason to feel the same thing, they mimic us. They look to us for security; this comes back to the herd mentality. If I’m worked up, then they think they should be as well. The old saying goes, “If you act like you have all day, it will take 5 minutes. If you act like you have 5 minutes, it will take all day”. All horses have a learning curve, just like people do. One horse might catch on faster to what it is I’m asking than another horse will, and where one is better at math, the other is better at science, you know? You also may need to ask the question differently, because that horse doesn’t understand even though the last 10 horses did. And just when you think you know it all or you’ve seen it all, a horse comes along to remind you that you haven’t. Stay humble! The learning never stops, there is always something new to learn or a different method to acquire.

Jacobsen: For those who don’t know, what is the bottom-up care required for taking care of a horse? I’ve most consistently heard of equestrianism as a “lifestyle.” In that, one must live this day-in, day-out to properly care for the horse(s) and maintain standards as a rider.

Howard: There is more maintenance in taking care of horses than people realize but there are 3 basic things they need. Food, water, shelter. Some horses are what we call more easy keepers than others. Some just have that more fit physique no matter how much they eat and others just breathe on grass and they’ll be on the thicker side. Having good hay or forage is the most important, horses are grazers, so they eat constantly, having access to forage 24/7 is the most ideal to prevent health issues, such as ulcers and colic. That’s also considering a horse is getting exercise as well, because eating too much can also create health issues. You may need to supply a grain regiment if the quality of your forage isn’t fantastic because they’ll be lacking on a lot of nutrients and vitamins. Access to lots of fresh water, helps keep their guts moving and processing that food, so they don’t colic. Finally shelter, horses are tough, but they need that shelter to get a reprieve from the elements. Depending on the climate of your location they may need to be blanketed if they don’t grow the best coat. It’s more desired to let the horse live as naturally as possible, but human intervention over the last 100 years has changed that and some horses are just not built for that ‘natural’ way of life. They need their feet trimmed around every 6-8 weeks, some grow a better foot than others, so depending on that and the level of exercise they are getting; they may need to be trimmed less or more often and some may need shoes. Medical checkups every year for teeth and vaccinations. This is all just the base essentials that they need.  The tip of the horse care iceberg.

Jacobsen: How does the industry look to you, at the moment?

Howard: The horse world can be sort of “cliquey”, there are a lot of equestrians that think their equestrian lifestyle is the one and only lifestyle, but I find that’s slowly changing. The world is getting bigger and there are more options for equestrians in NS to choose from. As in what kind of relationship or discipline they want to embark on, people are becoming more open to trying different things. I’m hopeful for what’s to come in the future in that aspect. Something I’m seeing a lot of unfortunately are people buying horses with almost none or very little prior horse experience. It sounds like a lovely dream to own a horse, but it’s not just a matter of giving them food and water every day. You could have a horse that is harder to handle and end up getting seriously hurt. You panic, sell the horse, and the next person gets hurt or the horse gets hurt, or that horse gets shuffled around for the next 10 years and has a very erratic life. It’s a story I’ve seen too many times over the last couple years: Getting a horse is not like getting a dog. They NEED training and if you don’t have any, then you need training too. That’s such a no brainer for me. To not only keep people safe, but to keep the horses safe as well.

Jacobsen: Also, how did you come under the stewardship of Nadine Bollig?

Howard: I’ve known Nadine since I was 11, when I started taking lessons at her stable just outside Antigonish. When I became a more advanced student, I rode a few ‘green’ horses for her to help them further along with their training, mostly putting some miles on them. I also worked for her as a farm hand from age 16-20. When she relocated to her new place about 10 years ago, I ended up buying my show horse from her and we stayed in contact even though at the time I couldn’t be a full time student or employee anymore. In 2020 she asked me if I wanted some part time work putting some exercise rides on a couple horses for her and now here we are!

Jacobsen: How has your student-teacher relationship evolved over time?

Howard: We work really well together. I’ve known her for so long and she’s been a friend to me for years; we really balance each other out and we pride ourselves on being honest with each other. Over the last year, we’ve been reinventing the business plan and the goal is providing a facility for what we’re calling horse lessons as opposed to just riding lessons. Helping people build relationships with horses whether that’s something they want to do in the saddle or just on the ground. Nadine’s biggest passion is training and when I started riding those greenies for her at 15, I found a passion for it as well. It’s come full circle, the horses taught me and now I’m teaching them. It’s very rewarding! Nadine has been passing all of her knowledge onto me ever since I was little and we’re also gaining some new skills together, she’s given me this opportunity to learn more and she has pushed me to really believe in my abilities, so I’m very grateful for her.

Jacobsen: What have been some of the competitions you’ve taken part?

Howard: I’ve been showing since I was 12, mostly competing in local shows and fairs. I’ve done a few higher-level jumping competitions, but nothing seriously on the circuit. Mainly hunter/jumper shows. I have a healthy fear of jumping, but also a love for it. It’s quite addicting holding on for dear life on the back of a 1500 lb animal running at obstacles.

Jacobsen: How do you intend to become a long-term horse trainer for a living?

Howard: Living in rural Nova Scotia and trying to live the dream of an equestrian takes a lot of balance. It’s not easy. Stables are far in between, and every facility offers something different. Training and looking after horses is my dream job and I still have that, but living where I live you have to have a job that supports the dream job. Nadine’s given me that chance by letting me become a part of her business, letting me work with a few of her clients and helping me build up my skills and methods. She wants to see me succeed and she’s very supportive. She’s always thinking of the horses and if there’s another trainer out there available to the horses and the people who need them than she’s happy to help me on my journey. I’m also always open to learning, you have to be, I think, to be a reputable horse trainer. There’s ALWAYS something new to learn. I hope one day, further down the road, to open my own little barn and facility where others can come to learn.

Jacobsen: How can people get involved with equestrianism or with you?

Howard: Research a stable that has a program that works for you. Ask around, find out what different barns offer and decide based on your level and what you want to learn. Be honest about what you know and what you want to learn, even if you’re starting from scratch, there’s no shame in it! Everyone starts somewhere. If it’s something you really want, the enthusiasm is very appreciated. I operate mainly out of Reaching Strides, but I have travelled locally to help people with small issues out of their own backyards. I’m not an expert by any means, but I have a strong intuition. I’ve worked with many, many different horsey personalities, so I have confidence in my own skills and if I don’t know the answer; I’m not shy to admit it, and I’ll work on it and get back to you.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Kailin.

Howard: Thank you for the opportunity, Scott! 

Footnotes

[1] Horse Owner, Assistant Trainer, Reaching Strides Equestrian Centre.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 22, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/howard; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightpublishing.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 11: Kailin Howard on Horse Ownership and Care[Online]. June 2022; 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/howard.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 22). The Greenhorn Chronicles 11: Kailin Howard on Horse Ownership and Care. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/howard.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 11: Kailin Howard on Horse Ownership and Care. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E, June. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/howard>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 11: Kailin Howard on Horse Ownership and Care.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/howard.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Greenhorn Chronicles 11: Kailin Howard on Horse Ownership and Care.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E (June 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/howard.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 11: Kailin Howard on Horse Ownership and Care’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/howard>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 11: Kailin Howard on Horse Ownership and Care’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/howard.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 11: Kailin Howard on Horse Ownership and Care.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.E (2022): June. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/howard>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 11: Kailin Howard on Horse Ownership and Care[Internet]. (2022, June 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/howard.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

Actuarial Sciences 1: Erik Haereid, M.Sc., on Actuarial Sciences and Actuaries (1)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.E, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 22, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,653

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

 

Erik Haereid, born in 1963, grew up in Oslo, Norway. He studied mathematics, statistics and actuarial science at the University of Oslo in the 1980s and 90s, and is educated as an actuary. He has worked over thirty years as an actuary, in several insurance companies, as actuarial consultant, middle manager and broker. In addition, he has worked as an academic director (insurance) in a business school (BI). Now, he runs his own actuarial consulting company with two other actuaries. He is a former member of Mensa, and is a member of some high IQ societies (e.g., Olympiq, Glia, Generiq, VeNuS and WGD). He discusses: Actuarial Sciences; an actuary; the risks calculated by an actuary; a governmental or an individual basis; the requirements for becoming an actuary; the requirements for maintaining certification as an actuary; organizations; and the reputation of Actuarial Sciences.

Keywords: Actuarial Sciences, actuary, Erik Haereid, mathematics, statistics.

Actuarial Sciences 1: Erik Haereid, M.Sc., on Actuarial Sciences and Actuaries (1)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: You are the only person who I know with an expertise in Actuarial Sciences, except a distant family member, apparently, if I remember vaguely correctly. Anyhow, I reached out to do an educational series on this because I like working you. You’re knowledgeable and give solid responses to questions. You think about things. So, first session, is boiler plate stuff, defining terms in an accessible manner: What are Actuarial Sciences?

Erik Haereid[1],[2]*: As you say, I don’t like one or two sentence answers if I have more on my mind. Actuarial science could be defined by a few words, because the essence is mathematics and theoretical statistics on an M.Sc.-level, with additional education into insurance-related mathematics, relevant probability theories, some economics and finance theory, and computer science. The latter two is “new”; I didn’t study finance theories or computer science when I did this in the 1980’s. Before the 1980’s there were, at least in Norway, more economics and insurance business-related topics included in the education. The actuaries’ task or aim was not only to know about the fundamental math behind the many calculations of premiums and reserves, but also to manage to drive an insurance company as consultants and executives. Since this seemed to be a too big task for one education and profession, one focused educationally on the foundation of the insurance business; learn how to assess the right premiums and reserves.

I have to add that in many countries, actuarial sciences are also connected to the asset-side, creating statistical models that maximizes pension funds and other types of investments. Traditionally, and especially in my country Norway, actuarial science has primarily been about the liability-side of the business. Since actuarial science is about analyzing risks, actuaries are also used in other types of businesses than the insurance business, e.g., in general risk management.

So, actuarial science is primarily about insurance engineering. It’s the evolution of different mathematical methods used to create the best possible premiums and reserves. It’s also about stability; no one wants the premiums to deviate too much from a standard. It’s about trust. It’s about setting the premiums as right, i.e., low, as possible to meet the customers need. And it’s about sharing risks; dividing the insured into decent and political accepted groups, which both are acceptable for the people but also subject for optimal mathematical structures. E.g., it’s both political accepted and mathematical possible to divide cars into “expensive, new ones” and “not so expensive, old ones”, and people concerning life insurances into “people with low risk for death” and “people with high risk for death”. A 52 year old accepts that a 25 year old pays less for his life insurance. And because of enough data (experience) and good mathematical structures we can draw a life table with good estimates of probability for death, for each age.

The challenge has not only been finding the best mathematical methods, but to satisfy dramatic changes into certain risks (e.g., that people live much longer now than only a few decades ago) and establishing new risk factors where one so far has operated with assumptions (e.g., making interest rates stochastic within the insurance products).

For example, the old saving products (pensions, annuities and the like) contained some kind of death risk in the annuity. E.g., if you saved money to your pension, and died before you got some or all your savings, the insurance company kept the money or some of it (other saving products were the other way around; you got more than your savings if one died, and for that you paid a higher premium). This was a part of the product; in return the insured paid less premium. Most people didn’t accept this reverse insurance business, and wanted the bereaved to get exactly the savings if the insured died. But this is not insurance; this is bank without any economic risk if death. To label it “pension”, you have to include some kind of economic risk that you as an insured want to share with others. Then the insurance business constructed products that was close to bank savings, but had a small (but big enough for the authorities) internal risk factor that qualified them as “pensions” or the like; not a clean bank product.

If you don’t have any clue about the risk, you will for sure raise the premiums to an unacceptable level for the customers, avoiding bankruptcy. But then you don’t have a business; then people would create some sort of self-insurance. Insured events are in their nature random, or stochastic, which is a more common used word in probability theory, which is the basis of actuarial science. Its purpose is to find procedures for setting the optimal probability for an event you don’t know where, when and if will occur, and through that give it a value. Remember, insurance is usually (excludes annuities and saving products) about paying money which you hope you don’t get back.

Jacobsen: What is an actuary?

Haereid: An actuary is an insurance engineer; a person that have studied actuarial science and has some qualifications (usually nearby a Master of Science); an expert in building and use the mathematical framework to assess risks.

Actuaries are traditionally involved in the liability-side of the insurance business, ensuring that the single premiums and the total reserves are enough to fulfill the insurance unit’s obligations towards the insured. It’s basically two types of actuaries (two branches); actuaries that specializes in life insurance, annuities, pensions and so on (persons) and those whose discipline is casualty insurance (non-life).

My impression is that actuaries traditionally are more involved in the total insurance business in countries like UK and USA, than in Norway and many other countries, where specialization is more common. I think this has to do with the specific culture. In USA, the actuary profession is seen as one of the most important and desirable ones, while in Norway most people don’t know what an actuary is.

Jacobsen: What are the risks calculated by an actuary, often? Those most concerning or pertinent to the public with an interest in determining risk.

Haereid: There are different kinds of insurance-related risks, depending of which country you live in and what kind of insurance company you use. There are several risk classes and risk types, and one can read about these elsewhere. I will mention a few types, that may be of public interest.

Usually, the risks are as mentioned divided into two segments; life and non-life risks. Life risks, or person-related risks if you want, are typically death, disability, health-related risks, injuries, survival. Non-life risks are everything else; insured things or actions; property like buildings, vehicles, ships and so on, and actions like job-related mistakes (e.g., advices, consultant services, lawyers etc.) with economic consequences. A risk is linked to what kind of damage the life/thing is exposed to, the cost, and the probability behind that occurrence. Obviously, we always talk about a stochastic, uncertain future event. But the layman can use empirical data to say something about any such risk; you don’t have to use complex methods to say something about the risk for car damage or house fire. There is a lot of information on the Internet that would give everyone some ideas about risks. Life tables are probably possible to find and download (I haven’t checked) from different countries and segments of people (like men/women). Then you can say something about the risk part of the premium you pay to your life insurance.

E.g., risk as to car accidents and repair costs. There are several factors and aspects into account, like the model of the car (which steers parameters like how expensive the parts of the car are, and who drive that model (e.g., young risk-taking men drives certain types of cars; in my youth Golf GTI!), where the car is driven (in rural or urban areas), what it is used for (in business or to domestic use) and so on. As to buildings it’s risk factors like location (is it more or less danger for natural catastrophes like wind, water, avalanches and earth quakes), and fire (how are the buildings secured as to electricity and fire), costs (size, material, where and when and so on). You may also take into concern who lives there or uses it, how many and what type of use of the building and so on.

In insurances connected to one’s life, it’s relevant with risks like death, survival and health (e.g., disability). Life tables (death-probabilities) are usually divided into sex and age (risk classes); a woman has less probability dying than a man, and since it’s uncontroversial dividing premiums between men and woman, women pay less for their death insurance than men. The same with age; old people accept that they pay higher premiums for death benefits than young people. You could obviously divide the risks into more and smaller groups and classes, within decent statistical models, but of political and other reasons, one usually doesn’t. E.g., dividing into professions and lifestyles would be mathematically right (it’s clearly a statistical difference in risks for death (like it is for accidents and disability) between certain professions and lifestyles, as showed, e.g., in the movie Along Came Polly).

The risk I am most involved in is risk for survival. That’s the most obscure and amusing one, because it turns the business upside down. Normally you pay a premium in case of an unexpected event where you receive some money. Here you get a discount because the insurance company keep your savings in case of an event (death). It’s about annuities and pensions, and especially important as to lifelong payments (longevity insurances). People live longer, and this is a risk concerning pension payments. In Norway, in the insurance business, we strengthened the premiums and risk formulas in 2013, adapted to the fact that people live much longer now. The social security system “Folketrygden” (Norway) has gone through severe changes the last few decades, taking into account that people live longer.

In pensions related to employees and work, most companies (worldwide) go, and have gone from, Defined Benefit Pension plans (DBP) to Defined Contribution Pension plans (DCP); to ensure that the company (employer) has cash to fulfill their obligations towards the employees. As to pensions, it’s a huge challenge that we live much longer now than before.

Jacobsen: Are actuaries more often used on a governmental or an individual basis?

Haereid: Most on an individual basis.

Outside the private sector, actuaries are used in developing social security programs and pension schemes for the public, in institutions that supervises the insurance business, they are employed in special governmental institutions like the Financial Supervisory Authority of Norway (Finanstilsynet) and the Norwegian Public Service Fund (Statens Pensjonskasse). In UK you have institutions like the Government Actuary’s Department, and in USA the Social Security Administration, where actuaries are involved.

But most actuaries are employed in the insurance business; in insurance companies or as actuary consultants (as I am).

Jacobsen: What are the requirements for becoming an actuary, e.g., educational attainment/qualifications, formalized tests for certification, etc.?

Haereid: In my and some other countries the basic are mathematics, theoretical statistics (probability theory) and insurance-related mathematics on an M.Sc.-level (in some other countries you need less math and statistics (on a bachelor-level), but more diverse topics like computer science and finance-related mathematics and economics). In addition, there are some economics, financial economics and computer science. The education is comprehensive, and differs some between countries.

In Norway, the education is at universities. Before the 1980’s (when I studied), it was less math and probability theory, and more practical disciplines like economics and business administration. In my time, in the 1980’s, there was primarily mathematics, theoretical statistics and insurance-related mathematics. I have a M.Sc. in math/statistics from the University in Oslo. I didn’t know much about practical insurance before I learned it in my first jobs. But I knew something about how one created the insurance premiums and reserves.

Jacobsen: In Norway, and other countries if applicable, what are the requirements for maintaining certification as an actuary?

Haereid: There are some loose requirements about evolving educationally within topics like computer programming and finance mathematics, but one doesn’t lose one’s actuary title if one drops further education late in life and career; in Norway. (I am not sure about other countries’ practice.) One just loses work opportunities. Old actuaries, like me, fit into other parts of the actuarial realm. We know a lot, which younger actuaries don’t. We have some skills both as to our education and experience through a lot of years, that young actuaries need and don’t get through education or limited practice.

Jacobsen: In Norway, and other countries if applicable, what organizations coordinate, regulate, and standardize, the national and local actuaries, e.g., punish frauds, update community on standards, etc.?

Haereid: The local national actuary associations (e.g., The Norwegian Society of Actuaries; Den Norske Aktuarforening) make guidelines and standards that actuaries should follow. You also have global actuary umbrella associations, like AAE (the Actuarial Association of Europe) and IAA (the International Actuarial Association), which set global standards.

Beyond these there are some variations between countries as to standards, regulations, punishment procedures and so on. In Norway, the overall finance business is supervised by the Financial Supervisory Authority (Finanstilsynet). There are strict rules of what to do and not, including how the mathematical framework shall look like, and that the actuaries fulfill their obligations. E.g., in the early 1990’s I contributed to the mathematical groundwork for a new pension product in Norway, created by the insurance company I then worked for. It was based on old framework, but a lot of the structure was new. Then we had to get acceptance from the Financial Supervisory Authority to sell the new product with its mathematical framework.

If the political environment wants to change any laws concerning insurances, the actuaries are involved both as a consultative body (mainly through the national actuary association) and as contributors to mathematical structures.

Jacobsen: I’m told Actuarial Sciences are highly difficult. A lot of people can’t take the cognitive demands. Is this true? Whether so or not, why is this the reputation of Actuarial Sciences?

Haereid: You have to have the cognitive ability to understand mathematics and statistics up to a certain level (M.Sc.), but you don’t have to have any high IQ beyond that. If you have a dyscalculia but hold a 130 or 150 IQ, you can’t be an actuary, but maybe a genius in other areas.

The reputation is kind of a romantic perception; insurance is quite aware in most adult’s heads. People talk and think about it a lot. Everyone have ideas about sharing risk, and that there has to be some principles behind the procedures that evolves into what they pay. Because people know something about this, they tend to admire or respect even more those who knows this area fully. Maybe it’s something like that. It’s the same as when students look up to their professors, but the professors’ children don’t. It awakes the curiosity about what is on the other side of the mountains you see in front of you, but not about what you don’t see behind you. And because it’s quite difficult and one need time to evolve this kind of knowledge, and it’s not possible to explain in a simple way to the laymen, people tend to admire it even more. Another reason could be that most actuaries emphasize their theoretical background when they work and deal with ordinary employees and customers in the insurance realm, in the sense that actuaries seem like boring and dry human types, and that this is expressed by actuaries as an identification they get some positive from. Most actuaries are less boring and theoretical than most people think, but the actuaries themselves don’t want to reveal this “normal” trait!

Footnotes

[1] Member, World Genius Directory. Actuary.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 22, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/actuarial-sciences-1; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

*High range testing (HRT) should be taken with honest skepticism grounded in the limited empirical development of the field at present, even in spite of honest and sincere efforts. If a higher general intelligence score, then the greater the variability in, and margin of error in, the general intelligence scores because of the greater rarity in the population.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Actuarial Sciences 1: Erik Haereid, M.Sc., on Actuarial Sciences and Actuaries (1) [Online]. June 2022; 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/actuarial-sciences-1.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 22). Actuarial Sciences 1: Erik Haereid, M.Sc., on Actuarial Sciences and Actuaries (1) . Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/actuarial-sciences-1.

Brazilian Natio0ffffffnal Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Actuarial Sciences 1: Erik Haereid, M.Sc., on Actuarial Sciences and Actuaries (1). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E, June. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/actuarial-sciences-1>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Actuarial Sciences 1: Erik Haereid, M.Sc., on Actuarial Sciences and Actuaries (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/actuarial-sciences-1.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Actuarial Sciences 1: Erik Haereid, M.Sc., on Actuarial Sciences and Actuaries (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E (June 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/actuarial-sciences-1.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Actuarial Sciences 1: Erik Haereid, M.Sc., on Actuarial Sciences and Actuaries (1)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/actuarial-sciences-1>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Actuarial Sciences 1: Erik Haereid, M.Sc., on Actuarial Sciences and Actuaries (1) ’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/actuarial-sciences-1.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Actuarial Sciences 1: Erik Haereid, M.Sc., on Actuarial Sciences and Actuaries (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.E (2022): June. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/actuarial-sciences-1>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Actuarial Sciences 1: Erik Haereid, M.Sc., on Actuarial Sciences and Actuaries (1) [Internet]. (2022, June 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/actuarial-sciences-1.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

Conversation with Olav Hoel Dørum on Philosophies, Love, Life, and Meaning: Former Ombudsman, Mensa Norway (2)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: July 22, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,502

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Olav Hoel Dørum was the Ombudsman for Mensa Norway. He discusses: social philosophy; economic philosophy; political philosophy; metaphysics; worldview-encompassing philosophical system; meaning in life; meaning externally derived; an afterlife; the mystery and transience of life; and love.

Keywords: economics, life, love, Mensa Norway, metaphysics, Norwegian, Olav Hoel Dørum, philosophy.

Conversation with Olav Hoel Dørum on Philosophies, Love, Life, and Meaning: Former Ombudsman, Mensa Norway (2)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

*Interview conducted January 2, 2021.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What social philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Olav Hoel Dørum[1],[2]*: Since this is the first question I will explain how I understand these topics so the reader has a reference throughout the interview. Various directions in philosophy, economy and political ideologies each represents a complete set of instructions on how to relate to the world. While many have elements highly valuable for different cultures and states, each model is in itself insufficient as humans are too diverse in personality, intelligence and motives to fit in to the often narrow and homogenous mindset and behavior described in the various thought systems.

Almost every philosophy, economical theory and political ideologies are self-referring, meaning that the concept of wrong exists as a contrast to other thought systems. There is no such thing as a defined saturation point in which we have enough capitalism or communism to use those as examples. The only way to validate an idea is to have an external criterion with measurable properties such as longevity, health care, stability and progress – even if this is limited and a somewhat subjective perception of what constitutes a good life. Handling complexity such as moral contradictions requires a level of academic discipline which often is too demanding. People are generally not good at simultaneously holding multiple ideas and values. My focus is on what type of people a mindset produces, rather than the moral and ethical foundation of that mindset. Even when there are no logical incompatibilities one value usually ends up as dominant.

To answer the first question, I would look to the East-Asian cultures which are more organized and collective in nature. They score lower on the both press freedom- and individual choice index, but it does not mean that the society feels unsafe or limiting for the individual. Interesting enough, there are reports suggesting that the perceived social pressure is higher in Norway than in Japan, which sounds contradicting since we have more focus on individual rights. It is easier to implement policies that are for the common good in a culturally and socially homogeneous population. Their culture is more resilient to change, which impedes progress in example LGBT-rights. But as a whole, their work ethic, social conscience, structure and reaction to crisis is admirable.

Jacobsen: What economic philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Dørum: Since income is moderately to strongly related to mental and physical health, including decision-making abilities, we should offer social programs and other benefits to those worse off – offering a predictable and available safety net. Most of the studies are correlation studies, so we cannot say if the variables are a result of a common underlying factor. We know intelligence and personality accounts for a significant proportion of economic success, but the cause is irrelevant in this matter. Poverty, including relative poverty which is a perception rather than objective criteria for wealth, is connected to crime. Income differences could lead to more political instability, segregation and lack of trust in a culturally diverse country. Hence, the social democratic platform seems the most reasonable. I do not advocate socialism, which is governmental controlled means of production, but capitalism with social programs known as “welfare capitalism”. The culture must come first, then the economic model. When a new economic model is introduced, there will be a gradually transition until it comes at a halt and the result will inevitably be a corruption of the ideal. After the fall of the Soviet Union, Russian capitalism became oligarchy. In America, capitalism has grown into corporatism. A political ideology alone is not enough.

Jacobsen: What political philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Dørum: Distribution of power through democracy. I do not argue from an enlightened mass, but solely as a preventative measure against the centralization of power. It’s tempting to see the advantages of the Chinese one-party-state, but they are also a highly advanced dictatorship. John Rawls idea of “Justice as fairness” is inspiring, but goes too far in his pursuit of inequality by disruption the distribution of wealth in such a way that we get a bloated bureaucracy and a too slow growing economy. To build a society we all would like to live in if we in advance do not know who we will be, is an excellent mantra. Most people seem to approach such questions with the assumption that their success would be within reach with a different set of abilities.

Jacobsen: What metaphysics makes some sense to you, even the most workable sense to you?

Dørum: I have a weak spot for Immanuel Kant. Kant argues that our cognition has two components, one sensory and one of the rational mind. True cognition is only possible by combining these two. It sounds like the diplomatic middle road doesn’t it, but it’s not hard to find branches that put too much emphasis on, or relies on, the concept of free will – such as laissez-faire capitalism and objectivism. The concept of not having free will is foreign for many of us. I like the part of Hume’s thinking that unites freedom, moral responsibility and soft determinism. Philosophical systems that speak highly of free often disregards, or do not seem to understand, how perception is shaped by ideology. Even our ability to tell colors apart, time perception and simple numerical understanding (multitudes and magnitudes) are influenced by language, three abilities we assume are determined by biology and not language. There is no conflict between lack of free will and responsibility, just as an action often leads to a predictable effect. Choose your environmental input and parents with care.

Jacobsen: What worldview-encompassing philosophical system makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Dørum: I’m so boring it’s unbelievable, humanism. Most animals that form packs seem to have a sense of fairness. Our amygdala, a cluster of nerves, which is a part of the limbic system – responds quite similar to psychological and physical threats. Sense of vulnerability, even purely philosophical, can trigger a fight, flight or freeze response. We get a more harmonic and stable world that way if people’s sense of safety is kept intact.

Jacobsen: What provides meaning in life for you?

Dørum: There is a Norwegian poem called “Livsveven” (The loom of life) by an anonymous writer. “Not until the loom has stilled, and the shuttle has come to a halt, will God pull the drapes aside, and let us see. That the dark threads so as well as the bright ribbons, together formed the patterned in our Masters mighty hand”. It is difficult to translate the poem in such a way that it recreates the feelings I get when I read it in Norwegian. I get filled with a warm darkness that fills me with peace. My answer would be “depth and dimension”. With age, I can appreciate the difficulties I have gone through, and the painful experiences I have had. I do not know if a more streamlined life would be a happier one. I now feel a deeper contentment. I have a job I love, well established and an active social life. To come to the point where you no longer fear death too much.

Jacobsen: Is meaning externally derived, internally generated, both, or something else?

Dørum: Internally generated. If someone has found a meaning with life it seems like they either have genes that promotes development of a certain mindset, or that they have, unknowingly or deliberate, practiced some form of cognitive therapy or metacognition. Most people do as they are genetically instructed and socially encouraged to do, be reasonably successful, socially accepted and find a partner. It doesn’t seem to give them any form of meaning.

Jacobsen: Do you believe in an afterlife? If so, why, and what form? If not, why not?

Dørum: I do not believe in an afterlife. There is no reason why our consciousness would somehow be transferred when the biological processes are terminated. Maybe in a parallel universe as a copy, but nothing religious.

Jacobsen: What do you make of the mystery and transience of life?

Dørum: Life as we define it are chemical reactions and neural activity. Our perception of time is adjusted to our biological life span. One day we might reach and average lifespan of 120-140 years and that would seem normal, or centuries using various technology to keep our consciousness intact. I am sure our perception and understanding of time will adjust accordingly. If anything, I would say our current time span is highly convenient. It’s long enough for humans to achieve ground-breaking discoveries, while not so long that social and political changes stagnates.

Jacobsen: What is love to you? 

Dørum:  A rare and deep emotional connection with another person. Usually a form of completion and with the desire to form a partnership. It’s a part of our emotional spectre. Some people rarely feel love, and some may never have truly experienced it.

Footnotes

[1] Former Ombudsman, Mensa Norway.

[2] Individual Publication Date: July 22, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dorum-2; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Olav Hoel Dørum on Philosophies, Love, Life, and Meaning: Former Ombudsman, Mensa Norway (2)[Online]. July 2022; 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dorum-2.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, July 22). Conversation with Olav Hoel Dørum on Philosophies, Love, Life, and Meaning: Former Ombudsman, Mensa Norway (2). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dorum-2.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Olav Hoel Dørum on Philosophies, Love, Life, and Meaning: Former Ombudsman, Mensa Norway (2). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A, July. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dorum-2>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Olav Hoel Dørum on Philosophies, Love, Life, and Meaning: Former Ombudsman, Mensa Norway (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dorum-2.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Olav Hoel Dørum on Philosophies, Love, Life, and Meaning: Former Ombudsman, Mensa Norway (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (July 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dorum-2.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Olav Hoel Dørum on Philosophies, Love, Life, and Meaning: Former Ombudsman, Mensa Norway (2)In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dorum-2>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Olav Hoel Dørum on Philosophies, Love, Life, and Meaning: Former Ombudsman, Mensa Norway (2)In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dorum-2.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Olav Hoel Dørum on Philosophies, Love, Life, and Meaning: Former Ombudsman, Mensa Norway (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): July. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dorum-2>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Olav Hoel Dørum on Philosophies, Love, Life, and Meaning: Former Ombudsman, Mensa Norway (2)[Internet]. (2022, July 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dorum-2.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

Conversation with Fengzhi Wu (邬冯值) on Tokyo, MIT, Technology, INTJ, God, and Iron Man: Founder & President, God’s Power (1)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 15, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,755

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Fengzhi Wu (邬冯值) is the Founder & President of God’s Power Society & The Chosen One High IQ Society and the author of the Mystery Intelligence Test. He discusses: Ph.D. at MIT; doctoral research question; the findings in the doctoral research; be like “Iron Man”; astrology, horoscopes; a “Meteor Hunter” and “IMCA #3268”; BB and ‘Crackberry’; patents; white-hat hacking; Karate; a genius; “smart is the New Sexy”; high-I.Q. societies; Tokyo; move to Japan; studying and researching at MIT; Japanese academics; the Chinese educational system, the American educational system, and the Japanese educational system; amplify the signal of the electrons; technological advancement use; an image showing full visual bandwidth to the user; God; the word of God; INTJ; Iron Man; Nikola Tesla, Howard Hughes, or Elon Musk; the next invention; and the vector of alteration.

Keywords: educational system, electrons, Fengzhi Wu, God’s Power, intelligence, INTJ, night vision, Tokyo.

Conversation with Fengzhi Wu (邬冯值) on Tokyo, MIT, Technology, INTJ, God, and Iron Man: Founder & President, God’s Power (1)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

*Updated June 16, 2022: “Dr.” removed as the Ph.D. is incomplete, according to Wu.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Why pursue a Ph.D. at MIT over other institutions?

Fengzhi Wu (邬冯值)[1],[2]*If I hadn’t been accepted to MIT, I would have pursued my Ph.D. at the University of Tokyo (Just kidding) because I knew I would be offered. As the interviewer said, I deserve it. But yes, I admire the rigor of Japanese academics, so I came to Japan as my initial study abroad choice. I learned a lot in Japan, but I wanted to explore other areas of the world outside of Asia.

Jacobsen: What was the doctoral research question or research questions for you?

Wu: The traditional micro-light night vision device uses the image intensifier to convert the weak light into electrons. And then amplify the signal represented by these electrons thousands of times. Eventually, it hit the electrons on the fluorescent screen like the old TV to form the image.

The subject of my research is to hit the electron stream on a special low-light CMOS after the amplification. Then, the high-speed analog-digital circuit converts the electron stream into a digital signal. And eventually, using noise reduction and other algorithms by the central processor to form a full-color, high-resolution picture. The final image is the same apparent effect regardless of day and night.

Jacobsen: What were the findings in the doctoral research?

Wu: I can proudly say that the problematic parts of the above topics were all conquered, and a new micro-light night vision device will change the world.

Jacobsen: Do you strive to be like “Iron Man”? Isn’t the Marvel character based on Elon Musk or something?

Wu: God created the world, but someone designed it, and that’s the INTJ. They are thoroughly farsighted and stray from the organization. That’s why people like INTJ are also called designers. Whether the universe is designed or not is another story. Still, in this world, INTJs always take on the role of innovation and revolution. They provide the theoretical support for the functioning of the world, whether it’s Nikola Tesla, Howard Hughes, Elon Musk, or me in the future.

So, as you asked if I was trying hard to be Iron Man, my answer is a definite yes. And I know I’m going to be the next Iron Man. I do know it.

Jacobsen: Do you believe in astrology, horoscopes, and so on? You list a sign as Libra. 

Wu: Yes, and I’m happy being a Libra. The laws of the universe relate to the numbers 3, 6, and 9, while I was born on the 30th of September. And I find it interesting that the more powerful a person is, the less he behaves like his sun sign. Otherwise, he can completely overcome the shortcomings present in his sun sign.

Jacobsen: I need help on these two. What are a “Meteor Hunter” and “IMCA #3268”?

Wu: Meteor Hunter is to hunt meteorites, as a very cool profession. The treasure hunter is someone who looks for the treasure left in the world. The meteorite hunter looks for meteorites that have fallen to the earth and have been observed.

IMCA stands for The International Meteorite Collectors Association, the world’s most professional association for collecting and identifying meteorites. Just as there is a GIA association of diamonds, IMCA represents the authority of meteorites. 3268 is my IMCA number. IMCA currently has 424 expert panel members worldwide.

Jacobsen: Why choose BB and ‘Crackberry’ over another device?

Wu: Blackberry was my first mobile phone, a very handsome device in my junior high school days. It was a pure device that felt great to type on and was very protective of privacy. My goal used to be the CEO of Blackberry. Blackberry has slowly retired from the stage of history, and it seems that there will be no release of a new phone. Still, it has accompanied me throughout my entire youth. It has given me many insights into business competition and life.

Jacobsen: You design, invent, and, in turn, hold patents. What have you designed?

Wu: Well, I have designed and improved a lot of things, including steamers, knives and forks, fruit plates in the kitchen, tables, chairs, children’s cars, toys, umbrellas, professional instruments and equipment, forklifts, various robots, electric picks, precision instruments for experiments, etc. I have won hundreds of design awards at domestic and international, including the iF Design Award, Reddot Product Design Award, A’ Design Award, European Product Design Award, Spark International Design Award, Genis International Design Award, LITEON Award, DFL International Design Award, DNA Paris Design Award, IDC Award, TEDA Cup Award, BIEAF Award, Goldreed Industrial Design Award. GBA Award, SSR Award, YDSJ Design Award, TAIHU Award, ICVA Award, ADCJ Award, GBDO Award, IAA Award, Golden Crown Award and so on.

Jacobsen: What have you invented? 

Wu: As follows.

Jacobsen: What are the patents held by you?

Wu: Underwater salvage robot,

Automatic ultrasonic flaw detection and coupling agent spray cleaning equipment,
A kind of air cleaning unit for intelligent buildings,
One type of intelligent building that sound insulation and noise reduction effect is good,
A kind of fixed-wing uncrewed plane auxiliary takeoff apparatus,
A kind of Household floor-sweeping machine device people with anti-collision,
One type of high-accuracy mechanical arm of convenient operation,
A sort of CCD camera of cranial nerve cell Calcium imaging,
Mechanical triggering power assisting device,
A kind of sweeping robot with a warning function,
Multifunctional umbrella renting and commodity selling all-in-one machine based on the Internet of things,
A kind of Sewage treatment reuse means intelligent building,
A kind of dishwasher with water-saving function for large hotels,
A kind of intelligent building that sound insulation and noise reduction effect are good,
A heat dissipation power distribution cabinet with anti-soaking function,
A kind of cleaning equipment based on experimental equipment,
A type of connecting terminal of electrical equipment,

An electronic lock with facial recognition function for easy installation,
One type of Portable sweeper device people,
Microgrid grid-connected and off-grid smooth switching current and voltage phase compensation method,
A method to analyze the reliability of distribution network operation based on the four-dimensional index system,
The rotor shaft adjustment mechanism and the uncrewed plane of multi-rotor uncrewed aerial vehicle,
A kind of spliced water channel,
One type of computer host box pedestal,
The gearbox of wind driven generator,
One type of force value counts the mouse Mechanical Pain stimulation detection device of a display……

Jacobsen: What makes white-hat hacking “white-hat” rather than black-hat?

Wu: It is the same reason as choosing to be a superhero instead of a villain.

Jacobsen: Any specialization within Karate for the black belt?

Wu: The black belt represents the beginning of karate’s “Dao” or “Way”.

Jacobsen: Do you consider yourself a genius?

Wu: Of course, I am. I knew from a young age that I was a genius. (I’m a straightforward person who doesn’t like the way that someone lives the life of a whore and expects a monument to the chastity)

Jacobsen: You have a quote listed, which states, “Smart is the New Sexy.” How did smart become the newest form of sexy, though simply a tagline? The Americans with the Kardashians may disagree. They don’t necessarily pay as much attention to Prof. Edward Witten, but may pay attention to Sheldon Cooper or a fictional character. Although, only a moderate amount as far as I can tell. 

Wu: I think smart has always been an expression of sexy. There is a term called “Sapiosexual. ” For me, sexy has never been defined. People are always attracted to what they appreciate or instinctively. I don’t like to see people show off, but if someone who is indeed awesome is showing off, I feel cool with that. For example, after learning about Nikola Tesla’s patents on electricity, I consider him very sexy, even if I haven’t met him. His intelligence formed an attraction to me that is strong enough to ignore his looks, age, and physique as external image features.

Jacobsen: You have joined a number of high-I.Q. societies: “Shenghan Club ITTP Society & DBC Society, Nano Society, Silent House, Silver Hawk High IQ Club, Power Lion, Obelisk, Elegant Attic, SpaceTime Society, SuperNova Society, Misty Pavilion, Hidden Position Society, Secret Society, Dark Pavilion Society, TC Society, Hide The Word High IQ Association, Meditator high IQ society, SYRUP Society, Music Genius Society, The ENIGMA Society…” Which ones are the most interesting or unique to you?

Wu: I’m writing this in the order I joined. In terms of names, I like Nano the most because I’m obsessed with physics and Occultism. In terms of chatting, I have met some great people and made friends in Catholiq, Shenghan DBC Society, Silent House, Silver Hawk High IQ Club, and so on. Each one has its characteristics and is different from each other. Of course, I also have some insights about high IQ societies, so I also created my high IQ society ——-God’s Power Society.

Jacobsen: What makes Tokyo such a fascinating place to you?

Wu: First, Tokyo is the world’s largest and most populous city, with the world’s highest GDP. It has the largest metropolitan area in the world. Tokyo has no clear city center because Shinjuku, Shibuya, Ginza, and Ikebukuro can all be called city centers. They all have extremely high population densities and are unforgettable prosperous. If you stay in Tokyo for just a day or two as a tourist, you cannot get to know the city.

Secondly, Japan is a country that combines classical and modern, and it is also the first oriental country to westernize by absorbing the best cultures from all over the world. Tokyo epitomizes Japanese culture. In Tokyo, you can see business people dressed in suits and traditional women in kimonos.

Third, Japan is dedicated to creating the comfort and convenience of life. For example, the train seats are comfortable and automatically heated, without feeling cold in winter. Each public restroom is equipped with free toilet paper. There are convenience stores and vending machines just a few meters away.

Fourth, Tokyo is not only a bustling city but also a beautiful tourist destination. Much beautiful scenery, such as Kamakura, Hakone, and Fuji Mountain. Moreover, Tokyo is in the Tokyo Bay of the Kanto Plain, which is considered a beach city, and you can take a train to Tokyo Bay to see the night view. Even with the population density of such a large city, the ocean in Tokyo Bay is still so blue, which shocks me a lot.

Such a flourishing, lively, modern and beautiful, no fakes, no queue jumping, bowing, and respect is the norm, thoughtful service city; who would not like it.

Jacobsen: When did you move to Japan?

Wu: About seven years ago.

Jacobsen: How Was studying and researching at MIT?

Wu: It’s exhausted but happy.

Jacobsen: What makes Japanese academics so rigorous?

Wu: The Japanese people’s rigor is not only in their academics but is engraved in their bones and reflected in all aspects of their lives.

Jacobsen: How would you compared the Chinese educational system, the American educational system, and the Japanese educational system?

Wu: This question is a bit broad. In my opinion, education in China is more about grades; in Japan, the ability to work together, and in the US, creativity (in terms of admissions). The Chinese college students, as I know them are worried about exams and papers; likewise, they work harder on their studies. Most of my Japanese classmates don’t pursue a master’s degree. They are offered by the companies early in their junior year. According to my observation, they study less seriously than the Chinese, and there is no explicit requirement of EI or SCI for graduation. Collaborative experiments and writing papers are the regular patterns. American students have the most daring ideas and hands-on ability but pay the highest tuition fees. Of course, it is not difficult to get a scholarship as long as you are not exceptionally playful. In terms of scholarships directly proportional to tuition fees, China has the least amount of scholarships, Japan is the second, and the US has the most.

Jacobsen: How do you amplify the signal of the electrons several thousand times in the night vision?

Wu: Are you asking about the traditional micro-light night vision device? It uses an image intensifier to convert the weak light into electrons and then amplify the signal represented by these electrons thousands of times through an intermediate discharge circuit as required to get the needed signal. Finally, like the CRT TV, the fluorescent screen is bombarded by a stream of electrons and emits a spot of light corresponding to the brightness and color to form an image.

Jacobsen: How might this, or is this, technological advancement used now? Is it commercial, military, or another use?

Wu: Our technology is essentially a new algorithm for image formation, and night vision is just the most representative carrier. So it’s like, although all named TVs, like CRT TVs and LCD TVs, they are essentially totally different things. It’s not easy to predict where will apply this technology. Still, I think the military will first apply it in the military. Our initial purpose is not for an armament upgrade. But if it is available for commercial use, it will also be applied to the military.

Jacobsen: Is the final result an image showing full visual bandwidth to the user, whether in the daytime or the night-time?

Wu: Yes, it is no longer like the infrared thermal night vision because it is based on image algorithms instead of light imaging. If it’s not for real-time data transmission back but just for observation, it doesn’t even need network coverage. It can theoretically handle all harsh environments as long as its battery works.

Jacobsen: How did God create the world?

Wu: That’s a good question. I believe in the existence of a Creator, but I don’t believe he has a specific appearance.

Jacobsen: Who created God?

Wu: Personally speaking, Man created the word of God. But he definitely exists, in some form or force, I think.

Jacobsen: How might an INTJ design a world? 

Wu: INTJ’s inner monologue is like that the world is a product. The way the product should be is right there. But it looks nowadays that there are problems everywhere, and it is up to me to solve them all. If I can’t do it well, I’ll do it again. If I persevere, I’ll be able to do it eventually.

Jacobsen: What does Iron Man represent to you – other than “theoretical support for the functioning of the world”?

Wu: Talk about this movie. I would watch it whenever I was sad. So far, I have watched it no less than dozens of times. Of course, I have a different feeling every time I watch this movie. He makes me understand what is the most important and what is called “the man who has everything but nothing.” He helped me find a determined goal and the ideal in my life. And I have been trying to move toward my ideal since the first movie in 2008 until now.

Jacobsen: Why so confident in becoming Nikola Tesla, Howard Hughes, or Elon Musk, in the future?

Wu: I think every successful man has a set of reasons to convince himself. No matter how much people laugh at you or make fun of you, you can convince yourself to keep going. My reasons are because I see the same traits in them as I do in myself. Like, INTJ, paranoia, perfectionism, and there is never a word for giving up in the dictionary of life unless I die.

Jacobsen: What will be the next invention from you, Dr. Iron Man?

Wu: A new kind of indoor lighting component. (Nearly perfect natural light and won’t cost you a penny in electricity after installation)

Jacobsen: One can state, “I will change the world. I will be the next Iron Man,” etc. The next question becomes, “How?” What will be the direction of change, the vector of alteration, of the world by you?

Wu: Everyone is changing the world with any small thing that they can do. My idea of changing the world is to improve people’s existing lives by designing and producing more functional, more convenient, and environmentally friendly products for them. Making money solves current problems, while having money makes it even easier to solve the issues and solve more.

Footnotes

[1] Founder & President, God’s Power Society & The Chosen One High IQ Society; Author, Mystery Intelligence Test; Member, Nano Society; Member, EsoterIQ Society; member, 6G High IQ Society; Giga Society 190 (formerly United Giga Society); Member, The Core IQ Society; The POINT Society; Member, NOUS High IQ Society; Member, Sidis Society; Member, Relic Society (遗迹).

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 15, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/wu-1; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

*High range testing (HRT) should be taken with honest skepticism grounded in the limited empirical development of the field at present, even in spite of honest and sincere efforts. If a higher general intelligence score, then the greater the variability in, and margin of error in, the general intelligence scores because of the greater rarity in the population.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Fengzhi Wu (邬冯值) on Tokyo, MIT, Technology, INTJ, God, and Iron Man: Founder & President, God’s Power (1)[Online]. June 2022; 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/wu-1.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 15). Conversation with Fengzhi Wu (邬冯值) on Tokyo, MIT, Technology, INTJ, God, and Iron Man: Founder & President, God’s Power (1). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/wu-1.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Fengzhi Wu (邬冯值) on Tokyo, MIT, Technology, INTJ, God, and Iron Man: Founder & President, God’s Power (1). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A, June. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/wu-1>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Fengzhi Wu (邬冯值) on Tokyo, MIT, Technology, INTJ, God, and Iron Man: Founder & President, God’s Power (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/wu-1.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Fengzhi Wu (邬冯值) on Tokyo, MIT, Technology, INTJ, God, and Iron Man: Founder & President, God’s Power (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (June 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/wu-1.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Fengzhi Wu (邬冯值) on Tokyo, MIT, Technology, INTJ, God, and Iron Man: Founder & President, God’s Power (1)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/wu-1>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Fengzhi Wu (邬冯值) on Tokyo, MIT, Technology, INTJ, God, and Iron Man: Founder & President, God’s Power (1)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/wu-1.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Fengzhi Wu (邬冯值) on Tokyo, MIT, Technology, INTJ, God, and Iron Man: Founder & President, God’s Power (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): June. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/wu-1>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Fengzhi Wu (邬冯值) on Tokyo, MIT, Technology, INTJ, God, and Iron Man: Founder & President, God’s Power (1)[Internet]. (2022, June 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/wu-1.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

The Greenhorn Chronicles 10: Kathy Asseiro on Symatree Farm (1)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.E, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 15, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,550

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Kathy Asseiro’s biography on Symatree Farm’s website states: “Kathy is an Advanced Equine Assisted Learning (EAL) facilitator and the Program Director for Symatree Farm. A lifelong respect for horses, combined with a strong belief in the value of experiential learning and an intense desire to help others, naturally led her to EAL. From operating heavy equipment, to earning a couple of university degrees, partnering in a three-generation family business, and achieving certification as an elementary Montessori teacher, she now draws upon her training, skills and experiences to head up the programs at Symatree Farm. Whether she’s facilitating a session, tending the herd, working on curriculum design, greasing farm machinery, or swinging a hammer, it all comes together in fulfilling her dream… bringing horses and people together.” She discusses: horses; Symatree; youth, teens, and adults; Advanced Equine Assisted Learning (EAL) facilitator; issues come with horses; people; coordination with Dr. Kelly Penner Hutton; main things horses tell; partnership between Piece of Mind and Symatree; the majority of clientele; the bigs, the mids, and the littles; and Sarah Guillemard – Minister of Mental Health and Community Wellness and Uzoma Asagwara.

Keywords: Advanced Equine Assisted Learning, Kathy Asseiro, Program Director, Sarah Guillemard, Symatree Farm, Uzoma Asagwara.

The Greenhorn Chronicles 10: Kathy Asseiro on Symatree Farm (1)

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations after the interview.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, today, we are here with Kathy of Symatree Farm. We will be talking about your background and then have a little bit of an introduction of the work of intrigue. Yourself, how did you get involved in horses, in ponies, in equestrianism in general?

Kathy Asseiro[1],[2]: So, this is going to be one of those stories to when I was 4-years-old! [Laughing]

Jacobsen: Every story! [Laughing]

Asseiro: It wasn’t there, except for a few generations back on a home. I was 4-years-old being asked by my dad. He’d go on a business trip. I’d ask for a pony. I wouldn’t get it. Fast forward 40 or so years, I have 1, 2, 3, and then 22. [Laughing] Also, the other side of it, I remember being 6-years-old and being really, really driven to do what I could to have people be joyful. I wanted people to be joyful and happy. Life choices and circumstances took me to the point where the horses and bringing the joy converged. I was able to get the property. Things fell in to place. With a little bit of work, this is what we now have today.

Jacobsen: Why decide to create Symatree in the first place? Because it’s one of those industries that is plural. So, you can do a lot of things with it. A lot of people in popular culture will know dressage. They’ll call it, ‘Horses dancing.’ There’s show jumping. They’ll know it as horses jumping over rails. Yet, why focus on gathering the types of horses and ponies that you do? Why focus on mental health and things on that nature?

Asseiro: I’ve got to say, “It is where my heart has always been.” So many people who I run into over the years, they have needed something. There wasn’t something always there for them. The rescues that we have brought in. They have so much heart and so much personality. They are deserving of a second, third, or fourth chance. Same with the people. I was wired to do whatever I can to help people find the place of joy in themselves. Then they can go on and be the best version of themselves.

Jacobsen: A lot of Canadian society, or, maybe, more, at least, has been focusing on the phrase “mental health” and its varying concepts and implications, particularly around young or the veterans or LGBTI communities. Who are individuals – youth, teens, and adults – coming to you, to work with your team?

Asseiro: It’s right across the board. Our team, we have a lead facilitator who is in charge of the youth programming. We have a lead facilitator in charge of team programming. I am in charge of the adult programming, which is something beginning to be developed in a unique way. We have taken the COVID years to transition a bit. We were working with a local school division. They would send 100 or so children a year. We’ve been an approved provider for Child & Family Services.

So, the children that we see are on the spectrum, have ADHD, etc. They have all these letters. We don’t focus on the letters. We focus on who the child is. Our youth facilitator is phenomenal. There is a lot of angst in kids nowadays. She loves to work with those because she sees beyond the angst. She sees what is behind it, which is fear or sadness. It is this remarkable human being doing the best that they can do with the horses to bring that out.

A lot of those behaviours that they were exhibiting before simply fall away. For teens, it is about identity. Who they are? Who they want to be? We will do overnight workshops with them as well. It is a ot of fun. We design to be fun. Nobody wants to do heavy work, especially teens. There is enough of that already. With the adults, I call them the phoenix.; The person who has been knocked down. The flame has not been extinguished. They still have a dream.

They are still seeking. They don’t know which way to look. Those are the adults that I like to work with. If the person is looking to better themselves in some way, we are open to working with them.

Jacobsen: You Advanced Equine Assisted Learning (EAL) facilitator. What is an EAL facilitator?

Asseiro: So, my training was done at Cartier Equine in Saskatchewan. They were one of the first, maybe the first, approved by Equine Canada to do this type of training. It was about 12or 13 years ago now, when I got the training. So, we would be equine experts. We understand horses really, really well. We create programming either one-on-one, to address specific needs, or groups, to gather and think. This age group, these are the typical challenges faced by them.” It will be a program based in a story that is imaginative and playful.

They are characters within th story. As they interact with the horses, they build their emotional vocabulary, learn to collaborate, how to problem solve, how to use common sense, how to make decisions. All these things that they struggle with in real life. As a facilitator, we are taught how to take that programming. For the delivery of the programming, it is not like teaching, where we are the ones with the answers. Facilitating is different, it is creating the environment with having the experience and the child, teen, or adult engaging in the experience, and finding their own answers.

Our horses are so used to all kinds of different energies and behaviours. So, if a person behaves in a particular way, and if the horse is uncomfortable with it, the horse will leave., They are allowed to do that. The person will look to us. We tend to look away at that point. You will find your own best answer. We trust everybody here that they will find that. They go back and try again. Then they find the success is theirs. Facilitators set the experience and letting it play out, but making it safe. We have never had an issue with that. The prime role of the facilitator is to let the person have their experience, learn what they need to from that.

After that experience, we give a place for them to be aware of what just happened. They may think, “I took a horse over a barrel or under a curtain.” We help them see their gifts in having that happen and how they can carry that into the world outside of the arena.

Jacobsen: What issues come with horses who may have been malnourished, may have forms of physical or mental trauma? How do you work with horses that may have those kind of issues in a herd.

Asseiro: So, the herd is the magical part of it. We keep between 3 and 4 herds. Horses have hierarchies, naturally, out in the wild. They have hierarchies here. We don’t want to put them all together in one. We have natural herd bosses and natural herd mares. We make sure the composition of our herds is healthy. If a horse is creating trouble in a herd or having a hard time settling in, we will pull them from that herd and into another herd, shifting them until they are as comfortable as they can be.

When we first bring a horse in, there is a good chance it will have some challenges and difficulties. We brought in a 4-year-old, our youngest. His hooves hadn’t been trimmed in 4 years, probably. Maybe, he’d seen a farrier once. The front feet weren’t too bad. The back feet were terrible, really, really long. We have an outstanding farrier. She put the nippers to it, super carefully. She showed the worst. The bad feet had abscessed. We kept him in the stall for 7 months. Every second day, his feet would be soaked in Epsom salts. We would pack them with powder. We would have the farrier out every 2 weeks to trim them and working away at it. After 7 months, we got permission to put him into the herd. That’s what we did. \When you put a new horse into the herd, they will get chased a bit.

We put him into the herd, made sure that he had a separate pile of hay. We knew the herd would push him away. We made sure that he knew the hierarchy and knew his place. We will keep them separated for as long as we need to get them well. The best we can do to get them well mental and emotional wellbeing is to get them into a balanced herd. We wouldn’t take in 5 at a time and stick them in one herd. It is overwhelming for the herd. We take, maybe 2, at a time, and get them to that point. With this little guy, we put him into the herd. His presence in that herd created some angst within the herd. Some of the other horses, like Sawyer, were really unhappy. A couple of the mares were joining up with the little guy. The three of them were being belligerent.

I pulled this tiny out. I put him in with the bigs because the big herd is so well balanced. So, he spent probably a month and a half or two with the big herd. They really helped him because horses understand horses. We can understand them to a degree, but our communication is not as subtle or immediate. So, the big guys helped him to learn how to be a good friend. Now, he is back out. We are doing special treatment for his feet. He will go out into a new herd and will settle in really well. The first thing for the mental and emotional health is to get them into a healthy herd and let the horses help them with that.

Depending on how much their trust or respect has been shattered when they came, it will determine how long they stay in the herd without human interaction. We are in the herd interacting with them every day. So, the new horse will see us interacting with all of the others. They start to see how the others are trusting us, and helps the new horse understand that this person is different other people who I have been with before. Some times, in some cases, it cane take years before a horse is healed enough to let even us comfortably approach.

Spartacus is one of those. One of the most damaged we’ve ever received. His trust was absolutely shattered. Now, he is absolutely golden. He is such a good mentor for people. If you ave a child with ADHD with the big energy, then he will leave. A child almost has the horse as a barometer. We don’t have to do anything. They do it themselves. The child learns they can rate their energy up or down because they so badly want to get to that horse. So, it is pure magic.

Jacobsen: How attuned are horses, ponies, and so on, to people?

Asseiro: My goodness, it would be hard to describe it in words, I guess. I’ve got a number of clients who I am working with now. The client will be interacting with the horse, even walking. The horse is on loose lead line walking beside the person. All of the sudden, the horse will drop back and start creating a bit of tension in the lead line or the horse will push/move into the person I’ve got one horse that will speed up a little bit, turn 90 degrees, and stop in front of the person, creating a road black. This is with more adult people. I will ask the clients, “What happened in you right there?”

They will say, “I was questioning myself. Thinking you don’t think I’m good enough.” Their old stories come up. Every time their stories come up. The horse would walk in front of them and cut them off. I am 200 feet away. I have no idea what is going on, except I see the horse change. They walk mores stiffly. Something changes in them. I mention this to the person. They start to watch the horse. Now, they are walking along, a horse cuts them off or walks back. The horse reminds them. “You can do what you want to do, but I am aware. I noticed a shift in you and am aware.” It is remarkable.

Jacobsen: How is the coordination with Dr. Kelly Penner Hutton of Peace of Mind?

Asseiro: I have been working with her for about 6 years now. She comes out 1 day a week bringing her clients, who are children, teens, adults, as well. We have done a couple of group sessions together for nurses and that sort of thing. When she is in the arena, she is the mental health expert. I am the equine expert. We will be collaborating completely and allowing the person to interact. She will move in to processing something if it is a complex trauma. Or she will do her EMDR. She is phenomenal at it. She will help them with the coping skills on the psychological end of things. I will be on the equine end of things setting up the activities and the experiences.

Also, I will identify when the horse is telling us something.

Jacobsen: What are the main things horses tell you?

Asseiro: One of the biggest things is if a person is not being congruent. If their inside and outside aren’t matching, then the horse will be really uncomfortable with that. If they are out of their body, too much out of their head, starting to replay old scripts and stories, then the horse allows us to know it. I’m sure you’ve heard of the Heart Math Institute.

Jacobsen: No, I have not.

Asseiro: They have done a lot of research on the electromagnetic field of the heart and of horses. They talk about the field put out by the heart of the horse, where the field of the heart is much stronger than the brain. They have small brains and big hearts compared to us, who have big brains and small hearts compared to the size of out bodies. Our electromagnetic field will extend about a foot and a half or two feet, so they figure, from our body. I don’t recall. It may 10 to 30 to 40 feet for a horse’s EMF being detected. So, when a person is standing in a herd of horses, if they come in agitated, then the horses are generally okay with that.

What will happen, the person’s rhythm will just start to fall into a relaxed rhythm being around the horses because the horse’s modulates the human’s. Even if they aren’t doing that much around the horses, they will begin to experience that relaxation. What they tell us, if they lay down and roll, they will only do that if they are comfortable. Although, a client may feel angsty. The horse isn’t worried about that energy. We will always know from the horse’s behaviour if the horse is feeling comfortable or uncomfortable. I was working with the 13-year-old a few years back who was having issues with emotional regulation.

She wanted to get up to Spartacus. She walked up to him. He leaves. She looks back at me. She had some struggles. Every time, she had a “no” from a teacher. She would have a temper tantrum and would walk off. Because he was giving her a “no.” I asked, “Are you feeling comfortable or uncomfortable inside?” She said, “Uncomfortable.” I said, “Breathe in, until at a comfortable spot, see if you can relax it a bit.” She did. I said, “Go ahead, try again.” I have no idea what Spartacus is going to do, if he is going to stay or leave. She felt more comfortable. He allowed he to come up because, for him, you have to work a bit to get to him. So, he was letting her and me know. Something is about her that is not as uncomfortable as before. As soon as she sorted it out, he allowed her to approach.

Jacobsen: How did you form this partnership between Piece of Mind and Symatree?

Asseiro: It was interesting. A woman just joined our team two weeks before. She is such a go-getter, Barb. She is on our website. She asked me, “Would you mind if I started calling?” At that point, we were working child divisions and individuals. She asked me if I minded if she just did cold calling. I said, “Yes, go ahead.” [Laughing] I didn’t think much would come of it. Dr. Kelly was one of the calls. Dr. Kelly was one of the only ones interesting. She came. It has been a great 6-year growing relationship. Being at the right place at the right time.

Jacobsen: Would you say the majority of clientele are youth, teen, or adults?

Asseiro: The majority are children, still. We are looking to build the teen and adult more. We, naturally, fell into the youth because we were working with the schools and Child & Family Services. Children and through CFS some teens. That had been the focus for the first 9 years. It was natural for a lot of these children to be coming. When 2020 hit, and things slowed down a bit, it gave reason to pause. “Where do we want to go with this rather than simply taking any calls? Where is the passion focused?” Through that time, our team was growing. After we picked up a person who loves working with teens and youth, it freed me up.

I have been developing an adult program, always based on imagination and play and finding that in wisdom. Because a lot of the kids coming to us. They have said, “I don’t want to be involved in talk therapy. I don’t want to talk to anybody.” Why don’t they want to focus on problems that aren’t theirs anyway?” So, at this point, youth is still the dominant one. Adults would be second. Teens would be third.

Jacobsen: Which of the bigs, the mids, and the littles, are more popular?

Asseiro: I really couldn’t say because it depend son the person who comes. If they feel a fit… there is always one horse. Her name is Kitani. She is a good little pony. We always joke. She would not be the first one I would go to, but a lot of kids really, really love her. I can think about every single one of our horses having a fan in somebody or in a group of somebodies. Again, people who are more extroverted are going to like the more rambunctious horses. The introverts will like the quiet horses. Those task-oriented will take the serious horses, just wants to get the job done. For those playful people, the horse that will let them put on clothes and paint them. They will be happy with that.

It is more about the person than the horse in that case. People tend to like the bigs once used tom the smalls because it feels like more of a challenge for them. Yet, it is great to have the smalls, when working with as many children as we do. Proportionately, a pony is a good size for an 8-year-old compared to a quarter horse or something.

Jacobsen: How did the Sarah Guillemard – Minister of Mental Health and Community Wellness and Uzoma Asagwara find Spartucus, Sawyer, and Kiwi?

Asseiro: [Laughing] Everything is pre- and post-COVID. I am thinking 3 or 4 years ago. Her people reached out to us as part of equine facilities because she had put forth the bill for service and animal day. So, we were invited down to the legislative buildings three years ago to participate in this day. Of course, we went down. They contacted us again this past year to see if we could bring some horses down. We said, “Absolutely, we love bringing our horses to people.” We chose Spartacus because he had never been to the city because. We knew he was ready. Kiwi and Sawyer were the others that we took. They were on a television show too. They are pretty resilient, very smart and very experienced.

So, the three of them came together. Then Uzoma came up towards the end, said they never really touched a horse before. I said, “Here’s your opportunity!” They came up and gave Spartacus a pat. It was getting towards the end of the time when trying to get everyone inside to see the police service dog there as well. So, I just said to them, “Are you ready for a challenge?” I love bringing people to those growth edges. I said, “Here is Spartacus, take him on the lead line.” The smile was remarkable and off they went. I stayed close by in case anything. But there was nothing to worry about at all.

Spartacus was content and Uzoma was a natural – really good calm energy, helped him feel amazing.

Footnotes

[1] Advanced Equine Assisted Learning (EAL) Facilitator and Program Director, Symatree Farm.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 15, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/kathy-1; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightpublishing.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 10: Kathy Asseiro on Symatree Farm (1)[Online]. June 2022; 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/kathy-1.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 15). The Greenhorn Chronicles 10: Kathy Asseiro on Symatree Farm (1). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/kathy-1.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 10: Kathy Asseiro on Symatree Farm (1). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E, June. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/kathy-1>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 10: Kathy Asseiro on Symatree Farm (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/kathy-1.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Greenhorn Chronicles 10: Kathy Asseiro on Symatree Farm (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E (June 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/kathy-1.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 10: Kathy Asseiro on Symatree Farm (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/kathy-1>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 10: Kathy Asseiro on Symatree Farm (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/kathy-1.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 10: Kathy Asseiro on Symatree Farm (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.E (2022): June. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/kathy-1>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 10: Kathy Asseiro on Symatree Farm (1)[Internet]. (2022, June 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/kathy-1.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

The Greenhorn Chronicles 9: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Issues in the Industry (3)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.E, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 15, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,280

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Leann (Pitman) Manuel’s bio states: “Leann was as good as born on a horse, and has been fortunate to work with them daily since her very early twenties. From Pony Club and 4H as a child, through national level competition and several World’s Show qualifications with her Quarter Horse as a teen, to some Dressage tests, a few Cowboy Challenge clinics, and the daily operations at Riding 4 Life today, Leann’s horsemanship practice continues to seek out anything and everything she may be able to learn or experience with horses. Leann is passionate about helping others realize the value of having horses in their lives – no matter the breed or creed – and she hopes to continue to grow and nurture the horsemanship community in her region well into the future.” She discusses: the individual level of standards; experiential knowledge transfer; a standard teaching regimen; and issues.

Keywords: Equine Canada, Keremeos, Leann Manuel, Penticton, Riding 4 Life.

The Greenhorn Chronicles 9: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Issues in the Industry (3)

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations after the interview.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: This raises questions about standards. This would, probably, be an analysis at two levels: 1) organizational, 2) individual. So, let’s start with the one that’s probably more straightforward, the individual level of standards. How do you embody the standards for the company to make individuals within it, or coming to it, align with it, inasmuch as possible? Also, what are those values?

Leann (Pitman) Manuel[1],[2]: So, I’ve listed values on my website. They’re words. Things like “Community,” “Inclusion,” “Leadership.” I’m looking for those words that will satisfy the world out there [Laughing]. Hopefully, it will orient them to my way of doing things. My standard is: I am open to anything. But if you’re going to bring me something that isn’t what we do, you should show its benefit and cost to us. We go from there. I’m open to explaining to people if there is a very certain way that I want everyone to put the bridals on the horses. It is a fairly complex procedure. It seems like overkill to a lot of people.

Until, they spend a half of an hour with me. Then I explain all the whys. Same with mounting a horse. I am very particular about how you use the mounting block, how you approach, how you ask your horse to come pick you up, how you stand, and how you get on. Because it is never about just putting the bridal on. It is never about just mounting up. It is horsemanship, warm-up, orienting your horse, a safety check. It is a really complex thing. The most important thing horsemanship-wise, I want all my clients to do is to assess themselves and their horse correctly. “At my skill level, is it safe for me to get on the horse like this?”

I’ve done certifications with the Certified Horsemanship Association or Equine Canada, have been in Pony Club, and all of these different organizations. They have different protocols for different reasons. I find them all lacking because none of them can address that piece. “How do you know if you as an individual have the skillset to handle the horse in front of you?” There is the thin slice again. All the things that can’t necessarily be put into words.

So, what I end up doing with my clients is asking, “How do you feel? What is your nervous system saying to you?” That is really important. I have teens, for example, who are incredibly skilled. I would hand them all kinds of fire-breathing dragon horses. If they don’t believe that they can, that means that they can’t. Because they don’t believe that they have the skill, yet. As soon as I put the lead rope in that teen’s hands, their nervous system will be activated. They will be in fight-flight-freeze. It will not be good. It is hard to put into words.

My husband asked me this. I met him. He was a novice horseman. His mom had horses. He rode a pony as a kid. He hadn’t owned horses since. We were dating. He asked, “How involved do you want me to get into your horse habit?”

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Manuel: We were dating. He realizes this is pretty serious. It would be nice if I start competing again, etc., and some big deal thing; and you’re there to support me. He is a musician. When COVID hit, his whole world collapsed. Now, he is working full-time here. [Laughing] So, how involved are you, honey? He came from novice to a competent beginner instructor. He is especially good at ground work because he has been riding alongside me doing my thing.

He said the other day, “You always joke about when you’re connecting with teenagers and how the adults are talking, and the adult sound like, ‘Womp, womp, wah, wah, wah.’ I’m still in that stage. All these people are talking, talking, talking. I’m not listening to them. I’m watching where they’re at emotionally, their behaviour. Because behaviour is communication. Behaviour in this horseman world is much more meaningful as far as I am concerned.” So, I am teaching these young people, unfortunately, to ignore their elders sometimes [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Manuel: To get a good sense where they’re at and where their horse is at, horses are pretty safe over, under, around them, when they are relaxed, calm, at ease, even blind spots, spook spots, danger zones, are only dangerous if a horse is elevated. The same is true of humans. If I can give that skillset to people, then I am pretty sure I am giving them the skillset that doesn’t show up in a lot of books or a lot of standards that they can practice in a lot of ways. I tend to not care if they are not holding the reins exactly right, or if the equipment is mis-matched with an English bridal and a Western saddle, or vice versa. I don’t really care [Laughing].

Are they safe? Are they having fun? Are they able to pursue whatever the next question is? I am good with that.

Jacobsen: This experiential knowledge transfer is non-standardized in a way. How could it be standardized?

Manuel: Right?

Jacobsen: The thin line between the verbal and the non-verbal. In journalism, the verbal is everything when integrated with the non-verbal, but the presentation of the verbal is everything. In the equine industry, a greenhorn, myself, or an experienced person, yourself the non-verbal is everything, and the verbal, couldn’t care less, by the sounds of it. Same time, it raises questions to the other portion of that question, originally, outside of the individual into the organizational. So, Equine Canada was mentioned. There are federations, societies, associations, provincially and otherwise, in the country, or international with FEI, to try to set a standard, to attempt to set a standard. I have heard mixed opinions about these organizations.

Manuel: Yes.

Jacobsen: What are the efforts to make a standard teaching regimen, so everyone, at least, has an acceptable minimum when training?

Manuel: Yikes. I’m going to ask you. I’ve been working on this problem as long as I have had the formalized business because, as soon as you formalize business, then you have to contend with public perception, personal standards (and why), communication with the outer world (because there is a world beyond my herd), insurance (a massive one) and how do we do that. I argue all the time with insurance brokers every year when I have to pay that bill.

Yes, this isn’t anywhere as dangerous as they purport because of the experience, because of my approach. They don’t deal with it that way. They quote all this data and evidence. I say, “Yes…. No.” [Laughing] I challenge the evidence because there is no comparison between overseeing Riding 4 Life and someone who bought a horse, who they can manage to catch, saddle up, and ride. Who invites their friend to get on it, they end up in the E.R.

These are different things altogether. As far as insurance companies gather their data, they don’t distinguish between the two. Immediately, I have a problem with the data because those people will not purchase business insurance. I do. I don’t want to suffer for their mistakes. That’s one example of the organizational issues facing us. The other one, I talk about it, when it comes up. We compare the horse industry to other industries. Like healthcare, healthcare says it’s evidence-based. It has a leg to stand on because it doesn’t select data democratically.

There is scientific method behind it. There is a whole lot of education behind what data, how that data is collected, how that data is used. There are a lot of checks and balances. I have yet to find an organization in the equine industry on this planet based on postsecondary education who meets this criterion of evidence-based. These are all member driven organizations. There are very few criteria that you have to meet to be a member. In most cases, you don’t have to own a horse or prove that you’ve ridden one ever. You just purchased the membership.

Jacobsen: It seems like a massive gap.

Manuel: My father-in-law, he takes pictures. He says, “You guys are doing great and goes home.” He could purchase a membership. Now, he is a voting member. So, right there, stop, guys! These membership driven associations produce a standard, a watered-standard, unspecific standard that those who are exercising their franchise in that organization can’t agree on, by simple majority. I’m like, “This is not adequate.” I don’t have a better answer at this point.

There are a whole bunch of cultural and historical things leading us to this place. Healthcare in the Western world has grown and improved for the – let’s say – last 100 years. It is the best technology, best practice, professionalism, education, and standardization. Our government is involved in it. The notion of peer-reviewed, where there are folks who hold PhDs holding others accountable.

When I was a teenager coming up, there was a woman who ran a large ranch who sat on the committee for the curriculum and standards for Equine Canada’s Western program. The advice given to me by my mom, when I was 10, 11, 12, 13, was: If you go there, don’t tie your horse to anything, don’t let it drink out of the water troughs, there were practices happening there. Even my amateur experienced horse owning mom knew, she didn’t want our horses exposed to it. This is a person who was at the forefront in the ‘80s and ‘90s developing the standardized Western curriculum for Equine Canada. So, yes, there are big problems. How do you vet those people?

Jacobsen: This is the divisiveness (positives and negatives) in conversation on the record and off the record coming my way, even in the earliest portions of this series.

Manuel: What? I am not alone?

Jacobsen: [Laughing] It is extremely common.

Manuel: We cannot change the problem if we don’t correctly identify it first.

Jacobsen: People want change. Then there are differential issues. So, not organizational, but survivability, so, you have a growing business. Others have a stale business, which is pretty good. It’s stable. Others have declining businesses. Others have closing businesses. It could be weather issues. It could be hyper-rural problems. It could be rising land prices. It could be agricultural land reserve bylaws or restrictions that apply to farms and stables, and ranches, and so on, which create issues particular to that geography, then impacting the business. For Riding 4 Life, what issues are coming up for you, in Penticton?

Manuel: Land, the cost of real estate, land use availability, proximity of it to my target market.

Jacobsen: How far are clients travelling to you?

Manuel: To me, I operate on the Penticton Indian Band. The channel running through the Penticton River. One side of the channel is City of Penticton. The other side is Penticton Indian Band land. I could almost throw a rock and hit City of Penticton land. I couldn’t be more ideally located. The trouble is, I just paid board to a larger facility. So, I operate on Green Mountain Equestrian Centre. There are probably 50 horses set up at peak.

It is not well set up for that at all. There are no resources, no help, no community planning on our side or acknowledging us. We are surrounding by industrial stuff. We are under the flight path of the airport. There’s B.C. Hydro stuff coming through the property. We are really faking it until we make it here. The only win is our location to a fairly large urban population for the only facility located in Penticton that is accessible to beginners. So, land is a problem. I could probably lease some acreage in Keremeos.

That’s 45 minutes away. Most of my clientele, their families cannot cope with that big of a drive time to get to their weekly session. I probably lose half of my target market. Would I survive? Yes, I could pick up different clients. I would be resourceful. I would be okay. It is not my passion. Also, it is not the biggest need that I see. I want to get more people into this industry because I recognize that it is a quickly shrinking industry.

It is not for lack of people wanting to get in. Horse people are horrible for advocating for themselves in the wider world. We really are. There is not a lot of political will or are not a lot of political agencies who know what to do with us. We are not really on the radar screen. Here’s the other question, which you have probably already run into, “Are we part of the agricultural industry or the recreational industry? What are we?”

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Manuel: This whole business of trying to figure out what guidelines to follow. Are we an essential service because half of my clients are accessing me for therapeutic services? Now, Sport B.C. was the one I ended up following because they are the only ones returning my call [Laughing]. “Yes, we think you are with us, but nobody knows for sure.” Even boarders who own the horses weren’t allowed to go on the property and see their horses under COVID lockdown for a month or two, part of the change there needs to be people who are in the horse industry down to one hobby horse.

We are not well-organized that way and need to advocate for ourselves in some organized fashion. Far be it from me to figure out how to do that.

Footnotes

[1] Instructor & Founder, Riding 4 Life Equine Enterprises.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 15, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-3; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightpublishing.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 9: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Issues in the Industry (3)[Online]. June 2022; 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-3.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 15). The Greenhorn Chronicles 9: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Issues in the Industry (3). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-3.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 9: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Issues in the Industry (3). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E, June. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-3>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 9: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Issues in the Industry (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-3.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Greenhorn Chronicles 9: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Issues in the Industry (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E (June 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-3.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 9: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Issues in the Industry (3)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-3>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 9: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Issues in the Industry (3)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-3.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 9: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Issues in the Industry (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.E (2022): June. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-3>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 9: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Issues in the Industry (3)[Internet]. (2022, June 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-3.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

Conversation with Scott Durgin on Roman Catholicism, Science Fiction, Humour, and Jobs: Member, Giga Society (2)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 15, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 8,703

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Scott Durgin is a Member of the Giga Society. He discusses: Roman Catholics; non-Roman Catholic Christians; Christian theology; the most prominent family origin; “observant” as a youth; science fiction; Ray Bradbury; Arthur Clarke; Isaac Asimov; Ray Bradbury; social ineptitude; outdoor activities; music; drifting of friends every year; social deficits until high school; “IEEE, SBE, ASME, Pi-Mu-Epsilon”; General Studies in an AA program; the appeal of Engineering Physics; the single hardest puzzle; problems remain unsolved; Vitruvius, Al-Hazen, Mozart, Maxwell, Feynman and daVinci”; the mark of genius; digging graves; a bank proof operator; the shift hours as a security guard; RF engineer position; teacher of physics; a marketing and sales manager; engineering manager and business manager; an engineering consultant; Founder and President; mix of humour, polymath, and paradox; science; and the hardest high-range test.

Keywords: Giga Society, Roman Catholicism, science fiction, Scott Durgin.

Conversation with Scott Durgin on Roman Catholicism, Science Fiction, Humour, and Jobs: Member, Giga Society (2)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Why consider the Roman Catholics authoritarian Christians?

Scott Durgin[1],[2]*: First off anything I say here and below is not to be taken as absolute truth but rather what I have learned. I’ll be more expository, less terse than last time. An advanced education does not primarily bestow an expertise in a particular subject, this is not the most important thing, which is rather HOW TO LEARN. One who achieves a masters degree has mastered the art of learning. And one with a doctorate is truly a doctor of LEARNING. Their field of study may be economics, world history, fine art, geo-politics, physics, philosophy or whatever. But that is secondary to the fact that what one has truly done with an education is learn how to learn. Most people without this don’t know, typically lack critical thinking skills and rely on others for knowledge. This doesn’t have to be true though. A great starter kit is the book by Sagan: The Demon Haunted World.

Regarding the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) or the Holy See, my focus is always the small hierarchy, not the priests or laity: The Holy See has been brutally and ignorantly authoritarian for 1000 years+ and they will continue to be authoritarian, and love/prefer authoritarian governments over all others. The reason why they love authoritarian countries (true monarchies, dictatorships, etc) is because it is very easy to control laws and people in a country by simply attempting to control one man. This is why they loved Hitler, this is why they liked even Stalin (despite having few inroads), Mussolini, Franco, Perron, etc; this is why they like any authoritarian. It is not about whether that country is Catholic, Christian, Orthodox, Muslim, other non-Christian, atheist or whatever. What matters is in a democratic country with a people owned government the RCC has an extraordinarily difficult time enforcing their ideology on everybody else. The creation of the United States has slowed down the aspirations of the RCC (again, leaders only) causing them to be much more patient in their goal of global Christianity. (Took them decades to finally infiltrate SCOTUS and now they are getting aggressive). It is much easier to take one dictator out and replace him with another dictator to eventually gain control of a country. This occurred countless times throughout  Europe for 500 years until the United States finally shut that notion down (if gradually). Very simple. After Luther, England got it started though, making Queen Elizabeth a political hero while a monarch. The Jesuits loathed her with visceral hatred.

Jacobsen: Conversely, why consider non-Roman Catholic Christians anti-authoritarian?

Durgin: The original definition of protestant is a PROTEST against the pretended temporal authority of the Roman Catholic Church. Little to do with theology. So Protestant by definition is anti-authoritarian. Or used to be. One’s conscience dictates, not the church. One’s civil life is sovereign, untouchable by the church. PERIOD. Freedom is absolute, separation of Church and State is absolute, as Kennedy said. Unfortunately today in the United States very few Protestants remember this; they are just as interested now in developing an authoritarian (and religiously based) government as the Catholics used to be. They would love to send the country back 100’s of years or more into the dark ages. These dominionists are waiting for a political Jesus Savior, apparently oblivious to the fact it would be Hitler all over again, and the RCC (their theological “enemy”) would benefit most. A publicly owned government stops them though, and they cry “tyranny” when not allowed to act like tyrants themselves. Here’s the 1948 version of ridiculous RCC contempt for USA principles of liberty: “The Roman Catholic Church, convinced, through its divine prerogatives, of being the only true church, must demand the right to freedom for herself alone, because such a right can only be possessed by truth, never by error. As to other religions, the church will require that by legitimate means they shall not be allowed to propagate false doctrine. Consequently, in a state where the majority of the people are Catholic, the church will require that legal existence be denied to error, and that if religious minorities actually exist, they shall have only a de facto existence without opportunity to spread their beliefs….” -from the Civilta Cattolica.

There are many in America today (some “protestants” no less) who still harbor such thoughts, mostly religious and mostly in the Republican Party. Trump supporters want to return to 1950. But that kind of intolerance needs to be literally stamped out; with a boot. Sorry, not sorry.

Jacobsen: What parts of the Christian theology appealed to the European heritage if known?

Durgin: My father’s mother recalled she was a descendent of the Huguenots in France. My fathers great grandfather was a preacher, and 12 generations back were pilgrims. Study the Huguenots: St Bartholomew’s day 1572, Edict of Nantes and it’s revocation, etc. you’ll see why there is the appeal. They were basically the philosophical descendants of the Cathars, and other proto-protestants who sometimes worked passively, sometimes actively to expose the enemy of the human race that is the Holy See. As far as the specific theological heritage of the family I am not aware of any, despite having two or three preachers in the background. Two of my ancestors are William Brewster (who was the spiritual head of the pilgrims on the Mayflower) and also Robert Cushman who supposedly delivered the first sermon in the New World in November 1621. My immediate family however was not theological at all; we did not treat any lessons from scripture or from church to be anything other than practical and moral, otherwise loosely based on the guide that is Old Testament and New Testament scripture. Learning Greek and Hebrew eventually solidified a largely non-religious outlook for me.

Jacobsen: Is France, the U.K., or Germany, the most prominent family origin?

Durgin: Depends on how far back we go. If the 8th-10th centuries, it’s fairly evenly distributed but for the past 400 years or so the primary origin was UK. There’s a link to 12th century Fulk V of Jerusalem (from Anjou) and Henry II through the bastard sons of Richard, too.

Jacobsen: What do you mean by “observant” as a youth? What memories exemplify this self-assessment?

Durgin: Before 10 years old, I watched others interact, make mistakes and succeed. Purpose was to learn, sometimes to avoid catastrophe and also to succeed myself. One example of avoiding catastrophe was watching a boy run after a runaway bouncing soccer ball and leap over it attempting to stop it with his grounded heel; he didn’t leap far enough, landed most temporarily on the ball and nearly broke his ankle, not to mention his head; lots of pain. Watching boys fight was also instructive, disappointing and depressing. Other than that, generally speaking I was deeply observant of the physical world as well. Watching a basketball in the distance bounce, listening to the sounds occur out of sequence from what I could clearly see, fascinated me and made me realize that the speed of sound must be slow, same thing with lightning preceding thunder. I wondered about ways to see how fast light actually was but failed to get anywhere experimentally until high school; then great strides at university.

Jacobsen: Why was science fiction the main interest for you?

Durgin: Science fiction evoked imaginative thought in a practical, non magical way; caught my attention when I was young. I stopped reading fiction by 18 or 19 because so-called history/nonfiction is much more interesting if one studies deeply enough. Unimaginable things are possible with the schemes of men. What is not forbidden is mandatory.

Jacobsen: What stood out about Ray Bradbury?

Durgin: Bradbury was appealing; very colorful and descriptively imaginative, this broadened my English language knowledge: reception and perception but not yet expression. Many dreams were fantastical probably because of Ray Bradbury’s work. I began to appreciate dense storytelling which minimized number of words. Short stories; giving the same experience to the reader in much less time relative to a 500 page uber-wordy novel with way too much character development. Admirable. Only a few authors were capable though. Appreciation increased as I aged. Time is MOST precious; finding a way to expand time is worth more than tons of gold treasure.  Arthur C. Clarke was the master of masters despite being poor at descriptive storytelling involving human interrelations, especially females. Did not notice this or care about it when I was a teenager. By far his book with the most profound effect on me was Childhoods End. Over the top psychological mind bender for its time. I did not understand half of what I was reading because the concepts were above my head. But I kept reading and re-reading and I probably read that book 10 times over the subsequent 10 years and it still presented as one of the most elegantly written and compelling stories ranging over an epic timescale while bridging psychology, religion and science. I still buy copies and give them away. Asimov and Heinlein really didn’t stand out so much per se, but they each had their own skills. Because of Asimov’s skill in presenting very short essays on a wide range of different topics I graduated very quickly from fiction to his nonfiction, which was helpful to a boy who was mildly interested in electricity, chemistry, astronomy and physics. Heinlein just tried too hard. Levi and P.K.Dick were better writers. Lovecraft even better. I read a few Heinlein stories and liked them but the moreI read the more I realized his stories were puzzles; they were more interesting as a puzzle …so both authors Asimov and Heinlein provided me with small stepping stones to help me graduate from “learning to read” toward problem-solving (reading to learn): learning facts quickly and solving puzzles. As and adult, I was introduced to Borges, and everything stopped, changed; LURCHED forward. Borges combined everything interesting into 15-20 page erudite labyrinthine masterpieces. Brilliant writing. I should qualify this with the fact that mostly James Irby and Donald Yates translated him to English, so they deserve much credit here.

Jacobsen: What stood out about Arthur Clarke?

Durgin: See above, and tersely: combination of scientific accuracy with imaginative and creative storytelling.

Jacobsen: What stood out about Isaac Asimov?

Durgin: see above. His short non-fiction essays were instrumental. I now have near 1500 books and texts in my small library. Have read and studied them all, many of them multiple times; all non-fiction. More than 100 are grad level physics texts and monographs. 

Jacobsen: What stood out about Ray Bradbury?

Durgin: Writing as art, as if Van Gogh in another life.

Jacobsen: Any examples of the social ineptitude of young life? 

Durgin: Ages 10-13 no ability to express myself verbally; blank stare when asked to explain what I just read, or give a book report. Girls liked me but I couldn’t respond unless one on one. Group activities I would freeze up. I did not learn colloquial language quickly. The language I learned came from books, so was much more interesting and in-depth than the nonsense communication occurring verbally between the other children (and even adults) around me. What I mean by nonsense are the “local” languages – dialects, innuendo, misused words, sound byte speed and idiosyncrasies. Most of the time people expected rapid response (still do) and while I can do that now very well, when a child my thoughtfulness took time, so communicating verbally was slow. This stopped a lot of conversations cold because I didn’t “get things” rapidly. Nonsense insubstantial symbolism and innuendo were no use to me. Real symbolism and deep communication appealed to me, starting about 14-15 years old. This was probably the beginning of my fascination with RARETIES. I just now recall one friend and I developed a language wherein we annunciated English words backwards (early high school); of course this sounded like gibberish to everyone with an ear, but we knew what we were saying by translating in our heads every backwards word, but phonetically off. For instance the word spider was pronounced “Reedips” while the word time was “eemit” both with emphasis on first syllable. A verbal code remotely akin but opposite to the “green language” (langue-verte, language of the birds) of the French, unknown to us youngsters of course, but much less sophisticated. I also sucked at acting, debate team and other social communication ruses for the same reason. I preferred chess: one on one. The ability to manipulate and persuade others into changing their minds is typically not based on fact, reason or rationality, but instead emotion; the ability to TEMPORARILY win an argument or debate by being clever or distracting – maneuvering around the conversation – was not interesting to me, so I initially failed at it, especially verbally. Chess is apt example: one does not win by sneaking a good move your opponent doesn’t see. One instead forces your observant opponent to make his/her best move a losing one. Both should know what the best move is. That’s the kind of engagement I wanted. I was interested in permanent knowledge (which is rare). This served as pre-preparation for becoming a scientist and an engineer I suppose. Effective communication is not rapid, but takes thought, effort and time. An engineering drawing contains a library of information and a great many logical processes, manufacturing limitations that are mathematically coded, dimensionally coded, etc. are inherent, which can only be understood by those trained to read them. It would take many pages of standard verbal phrases to explain what is on ONE page of an engineering drawing. What is otherwise written down is therefore OFFICIAL, and can be read and studied over and over again so that the reader can grow in order to understand it. But a verbal conversation is often over before it’s over; a conversation can never be repeated; it’s never the same twice. Emotions change rapidly. “Dammit I had something for this!” days Archer.

Jacobsen: What kind of outdoor activities took up youngster Durgin’s time?

Durgin: Winter time skiing and sledding and trekking through the woods. Camping. Throwing inanimate objects at cars and each other. Snow soccer was also fun I remember that from 8-9-10 years old. Climbing trees and attempting to leap out, grasping the top of a limb and letting go at the right time to drop to the ground. Hardly ever worked. In summer any number of things depending on what age I was: neighborhood baseball, basketball and football I often played on a daily basis. I preferred baseball over the others because it was not timed. Beating the clock or beating your opponent because of the clock is a temporary win, not a real one; Illusory rather than substantial. One summer I experimented with rockets, another with foolishly shooting arrows straight up and then feeling angst. My father carved his own hunting bows, so I could launch arrows upward beyond eyesight. Quite possibly my favorite outdoor pastimes were cycling, hiking and digging for old bottles. I would bike 100 miles through the hilly New England countryside at 14 years old. Started racing at 16. Also hiking through thick woods randomly getting lost just for the purpose of finding my way out again. Not smart after dark. In doing so I was able to come across many old burial grounds (where antiques and housewares rather than dead bodies were buried). I would find old bottles or cans, tools, things like that, learning that old glass bottles were certain treasure. Digging deeper than others became my desired activity, this is so important in every field, really. Early American glass bottles were attractive because: all one-of-a-kind handmade; to find one still fully intact by digging 3 to 4 feet underground in a particularly remote wooded area was an amazing un-duplicatable experience. Glass is easily damaged; very rare to find a whole bottle. Early American whiskey bottles, medicine bottles and masonic flasks were my focus; rare treasures I could find, especially if looked deep. I have found throughout my life one difference between me and most others: I am the one who apparently focuses, obsesses and digs the deepest; this goes for literal digging in the ground, archaeology and other similar activities but also metaphorically digging into history and literature, psychology and religion or consciousness. Once one digs deeply enough in their own religion they see it is Myth. My current favorite text is The Mythical Origin of the Egyptian Temple (by Eve Reymond), which brilliantly explores myth as origin. It’s very disappointing to see current archaeology lingering in a state of lasting ignorance about our history due to simply not digging deeply enough. In addition, no serious archaeologist or anthropologist appears to be willing to learn astronomy, necessary in order to understand prior cultures. Fear of Math is most irrational.

Jacobsen: What music did you like?

Durgin: Eclectic interests which only deepened with time. Orchestral rock, classical jazz; music which contained an inherent depth and uber-strength of effort was what I gravitated to, even at 13-14 years old. The best examples of this are Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, Yes, Rush, also classical baroque like Mozart. Later on I gravitated toward angelic instrumental blends. Was enthralled with Enya. Then David Arkenstone; Deuter was especially contemplative and relaxing. The soundtracks to the games Riven and Exile were fantastic; thus my interests evolved to more moody, atmospheric and mind expanding pieces. These helped my brain not spend too much time in turbid maelstroms of fugue-like expeditions and vortices. Deuter’s work and Enya’s enchantments truly felt healing. One memorable record was Echoes of Egypt by David & Diane Arkenstone, which reminds me of Echoes by Pink Floyd Live at Pompeii, amazing piece.

Jacobsen: Did you become used to loss with the drifting of friends every year or few as a young person?

Durgin: Yes, didn’t consider it a loss, just kept going and kept growing. My desire for mental and philosophical growth eventually separated me from others every few years. I’ve learned not to blame others. No one else dares to go very deep, even into their own interests. I believe this to be psychological and seems to have a relationship to fear of what is deeply located in every human being’s psyche. A psychological barrier then. Conquering deep-set fear became a staple for me, but not at first. At 7 or 8 I overcame my crippling fear of the ominously dark occasionally rumbling cellar; entering a dark cold cave was next. Unimaginably horrific creatures lurked there of course. Fear of heights took a little longer; did all this alone. Fear of the unknown was a strong pull, and I learned early how to dream what I intended, so was able to experiment mentally. Terrified me at times…the mind is the worst horror.

Jacobsen: Though alone, often, due to social deficits until high school, did you feel alone? The common divider between being alone, but not necessarily a feeling of lonely comes to mind for you – just an intuition.

Durgin: Accurate….Never felt alone, probably never will unless something changes chemically. Thoreau and Frost come to mind. Pretty women became my focus later on, these treasures can be truly deep mysteries. Like the Zohar. I feel the entire universe is my playground; my field of exploration where so many things are waiting for me to explore, interact with and discover. I feel connected to the entire world (even the stars) probably because I WILL MYSELF to be connected. It worked back then, still works now. My next 500 years could be dedicated to continued exploration should I live that long. Discovery is not possible without exploration. Sideways discovery is often more satisfying. My home is located in a wooded sanctuary (forest bordering me on 3 sides) and serves as a mental sanctuary. A geometric labyrinthine necropolis is not far away. If I am eventually buried there at the southwestern apex of a 72 foot stone triangle, resting deeply below a cold running stream, I feel like I will live forever.

Jacobsen: Can you, please, unpack those for me, “IEEE, SBE, ASME, Pi-Mu-Epsilon”? Regis, I’d like to use a lifeline.

Durgin: Easy to look up, globally known. The first three are Engineering Societies: electrical, broadcast communication and mechanical respectively. Pi mu epsilon is an honors math society. All great resources. I’ve used the transactions of each in my research as an engineer, countless times.

Jacobsen: Why General Studies in an AA program?

Durgin: The degree was automatic because I had already spent four years of school at three different Universities while studying psychology and history as a matter of course (in addition to physics and engineering) so I took the associate degree first.

Jacobsen: What was the appeal of Engineering Physics for the BS? 

Durgin: Before University, I was highly interested in understanding the physical world; the laws nature followed fascinated me. In high school physics I did well without expecting to, but that’s partly because I actually spent the time attempting to learn it. I was interested. The fact that nature obeys mathematical laws is a very powerful, useful and fascinating notion. The very pinnacle of this notion is encapsulated in Noether’s theorem, which I did not fully learn or appreciate until decades after the degrees. This theorem ties together Relativity, Electrodynamics and quantum field theory by way of the principle of least action, gauge invariance and the conservation laws. Astoundingly important but a bit beyond what undergrads typically absorb. One very hard lesson I learned while earning my degree in science was that such labor and research requires multiple sources in order to understand even the most basic concepts. You cannot just study one textbook to learn electrodynamics or thermal physics. One must read and study at least five or six textbooks in every subject to get it. When I say study I mean you read every page in a textbook over and over again at different times in different weeks and in different months. And then you go through the exercises on paper with pencil; you draw pictures, you experiment with different equations and different relationships. You cross-correlate. So it actually takes years of overlapping study and practice in order to understand what it is you’re doing. Engineering Physics was an undergraduate program that was somewhat elitist and only for those apparently who can survive a very rigorous study program; nearly killed me. Engineering itself was bad enough, but to pursue a six year-double degree program in engineering and physics required an insane amount of effort and work for me; it actually took me more than seven. Like 160+ credits. But I loved physics and wanted to become an engineer so it was an ideal program. Superconductivity, magnetohydrodynamics, optical polarimetry, Dye Lasers, holography, these were all projects I dove into. Difficult paths produce the best learning experiences for me. I wanted to become an expert in physics because I considered it the master discipline. Additionally, one must know physics well in order to become an effective engineer, whether it’s bridge design, communications, transportation, materials, chemical or electrical. In Science education, there is no better match of complementary subjects than electrical engineering and physics. The best pairing for physics and engineering in general was/is electrical engineering, for the primary reason that nearly all familiar phenomena we experience as human beings are electromagnetic in origin. Waves. Understanding waves, whether transverse or longitudinal requires the mastery of differential equations and exponential functions, as well as complex functions, and in some cases four dimensional tensors. 95% of the important every-day measurable properties of materials are electrical. Because I was so interested in a high challenge and because I wanted to understand the way the world worked (first-hand for real without having to rely on others) I chose physics. I wanted to be that expert. I wanted to see Newton’s reasoning. I wanted to understand how Einstein forged together knowledge of electrodynamics and motion to arrive at Relativity and the non-absoluteness of time. And I knew that engineering would also bestow a relatively solid and stable financial footing in society: Practical. Engineers are indispensable and they are also the best fit for an advanced entrepreneurial career. As stated before, Engineering is the heart of problem solving: Scientific economic diplomacy.

Jacobsen: What has been the single hardest puzzle to solve out the puzzle of life for you?

Durgin: 1. Women. Glorious and fun, like cats. 2. Slowing time down, expanding it so five minutes seems like an hour; some progress here, surprisingly.

And….Lately two projects I’ve been working on for more than 15 years. One of them involves learning enough about the past in order to predict the future; this has by far been the most challenging because it requires an enormous amount of time, study, focus and retention, in addition to the other things I’m doing. It requires learning and re-learning and yet EVEN MORE relearning of the subject matter I have attacked throughout my life. Extraordinarily cerebral and physical challenge. And it has allowed me to indeed gain SOME MINUTE upper hand on ability to predict the activities of certain people and groups; in effect predicting the future. The period 2034-2041 will see a most distressing time for rational non-religious people in the West if I’ve come to correct conclusions. Studying the most influential organization in the past thousand or 1500 years provided a short circuit to understanding most of European history. Pattern recognition has been the skill I possessed since a young boy; have used it to my advantage whenever possible. With “learning about the past to predict the future” the pattern to recognize has been a combination of natural cycles and fabricated man-made events. The natural cycles are astronomical in nature (basic solar system orbital mechanics) and the man-made events have to do with the development of the calendar, coupled with the seeking of political power. My second project involves the ancient necropolis of geometric form in the middle of the woods mentioned above: not far from New England but I’ve been able to spend some time in it. An enormous amount of curiosity, fascination and subsequent satisfaction has resulted, such that this may have surpassed the first project in importance, not sure yet. Coincidentally it also involves simple geometric patterns and the astronomy based calendar. I’ve had to re-learn Euclid as a result. There have been other small problems in physics I have been working; involving the design of a prototype solar system sized (Interferometric) telescope which can directly view the earth’s past. Will take 500-1000 or so years to actually build. Need warp drive and a stable wormhole to eventually communicate data back. Physics allows it but the engineering challenge is overwhelming. I did mention humor didn’t I? At some point we need to send a group back tasked with building the moon and bringing into stable orbit a billion years ago; we’ll need to be Type II Civilization by then. Also unique problems in propulsion and transportation have been a focus of mine. The book Geometry and Light was a great find because I would have written it myself had I the skill and inclination. Ulf Leonhardt is genius and he certainly beat me to it. Communicating with my future self was a project involving self-Hypnosis combined with the art of practicing other unusual mental and psychological activities. Aside from that, I can now call to mind a third GIANT project I’ve been working for many years: simply understanding people, human nature. The best way is to spend time with them, travel, understand different languages, learn ANCIENT LONG DEAD languages, different modes of thinking, different modes of communication and different modes of living, etc. Carl Jung’s works and my strong intuition have been instrumental as guides, also many other authors focusing on mythology. So I have travelled over the past 10 years or so, using my profession as an RF & Microwave Engineer as leverage, solving difficult challenges in the world of electronic communication, mostly in the defense and aerospace markets all over the world; from Tel Aviv, Germany, other points in Europe and the United States and U.K.

Jacobsen: What will problems remain unsolved, as in mysteries without apparent graspable solutions?

Durgin: The power of the human brain in a word. If we master that as a grand society then many conflicts and world problems will resolve themselves, but this will take many hundreds of years. Removing and stamping out authoritarianism has been a big distraction for hundreds of years. That MUST be accomplished, coupled with freedom and a people-owned globally scoped government before we can get to exploring the universe and the brain in depth. Possibly the two greatest things to solve in the world today I think requires great and profound increases in the study of the brain, coupled with a correspondingly great and profound increase in the study of the universe beyond Earth. I am also interested in these things but I have not been able to spend as much time and effort with them as I would like. Not enough clones.

Jacobsen: So, this is a big list, “Plato, Euclid, Vitruvius, Confucius, Hypatia, Proclus, Roger Bacon, Al-Hazen, Dante, Those who composed the Zohar, those who composed the Hermetic philosophy, John Dee, Leonardo, Mozart, Newton, Maxwell, Goethe, Gödel, Einstein, Emmy Noether, Dirac, Feynman. My favorites in there are probably Vitruvius, Al-Hazen, Mozart, Maxwell, Feynman and daVinci.”  With “Vitruvius, Al-Hazen, Mozart, Maxwell, Feynman and daVinci,” why those six, individually, and then collectively? Your thought seems individual-sequential and then collective-whole.

Durgin: Yes if one studies each of those figures, a common thread binds them, if loosely; to describe that would take a few books. Brutally brief and partial summary:

Vitruvius was a polymath, he understood the importance of blending many other disciplines and realize that a physicist (by which he meant architect) must understand all those other subjects (MASTERY) in order to be successful. Al-Hazen also was a polymath: collected knowledge from all corners, some likely from the Alexandrian library not destroyed by the Catholic Church. His interests in alchemy and physics are notable. He sought to unify knowledge… to synthesize all known forms of life and knowledge into a cohesive whole. This is an underlying theme of the people I consider genius. Atrociously, I neglected to mention Carl Jung in that list. His work is monumental, no question. Roger Bacon was amazing, The Zohar will lose you, daVinci was unstoppable, Feynman could elegantly explain post grad physics to undergrads; something Einstein couldn’t. Those who spend an enormous amount of time looking and searching, then spend an equally enormous amount of time analyzing and seeking to understand what was found, and then FURTHER spend an enormous amount of effort attempting to link everything back together into the WHOLE IT WAS IN THE FIRST PLACE, these are genius. Analysis is not the end, synthesis is. Those who see and understand that the physical universe is like a wheel with many spokes and those who search for and study the HUB are the leaders we need to follow. Dividing knowledge and history and experience into segments like the spokes on a wheel is a useful exercise, but to forget the fact they are all linked together by the hub is ignorant. So the geniuses I chose throughout history seemed to me to reflect the importance of that notion. I’ve studied all available notebooks of Leonardo; he broke the mold, fantastic individual. Manly Hall divided true philosophy into a bunch of developmentally graded concepts, each more focused than the last, each with greater scope than the last: Perception, Examination, Reflection, Knowledge, Exploration, Understanding, Discovery, Wisdom. Some of the individuals above mastered all levels it seems. Note without Freedom, many of these are impossible. Freedom is thus the superior overarching theme; the highest ideal.

Jacobsen: Why is humour the mark of genius?

Durgin: Not the only mark. Understanding how to deliver humor exudes a hint of understanding the human brain better than anything or anyone else. Subtle humor exposes a deep understanding of the learning process. This is why I consider people who have the ability to do this and who are themselves uniquely intelligent, who seek knowledge and understanding, etc. to be genius. Humor is an advanced connection. 

Jacobsen: What was digging graves like for you? That’s a fascinating job.

Durgin: Solitary, somewhat interesting and on some rare occurrences, terrifying. Salem’s Lot.

Jacobsen: What the hell is a bank proof operator?

Durgin: One who processes incoming checks to a bank’s vault. Using typewriters or adding machines one must simply encode all the numbers on the check and the amount of the check. Accounting. Mostly computers do this now today.

Jacobsen: What were the shift hours as a security guard?

Durgin: Mostly daytime. I worked at a Civic Plaza/ convention center where various different conventions and forums occurred, technical, hobby, special interest, futuristic, industrial, etc.

Jacobsen: Is the RF engineer position one in which the BS degree came in handy?

Durgin: Necessary minimum. One cannot be responsible for the design of communication components in defense and aerospace industries (what the serious RF Engineer does) if one does not have a solid background in electrical engineering and physics, in addition to four or five years of practice beyond that. High power RF design engineering requires an exceptional aptitude and mathematical background in mechanical, electrical, time varying-spatial varying wave physics and thermal concepts. This over a broad range of materials science too. The design of practical RF and microwave components involves consideration and mastery of a large variety of disciplines and factors. These include electrical, architectural (like topology, materials and realizability) thermal and wave principles of resonant circuits, coupled structures and elements as well as field theory. In addition one must marshal the resources associated with manufacturing processes and engineering materials & toolsets required for fabrication and proper tolerancing…this involves machining etching, casting, forging, extrusion, welding, plastics film deposition and others. One must also fully understand cost factors Such as labor and overhead, assembly, adjustment, test, quality control etc. Effective communication is therefore critical. Engineering is problem-solving at the direct level and so an entrepreneurial spirit is necessary. If you are not using differential equations to solve these physical problems then you are not an engineer, much less an RF engineer.

Jacobsen: You would be a colourful teacher of physics. How did you approach teaching physics? Also, what levels?

Durgin: Years ago, sophomore level only. I was engaging and brought various levels of mechanical activity and fun to the classroom. I was inspired by Feynman to do this. And my own understanding of the synthesis that physics brings to understanding the world also inspired me. I wanted others to know this and learn it. Learning advanced mathematics is not that difficult because mathematics is pure logic; when applied to the physical world it provides a solid understanding of why things work the way they do, from light to magnetism to stellar formation and evolution, to biological processes and organic chemistry, to all other forms of physical interaction. The most challenging applications to learn mechanics are associated with rotary motion, the orbital motion of planets, gyroscopes, gravitational fields and forces. The Foucault pendulum is remarkably elegant. I set up small and large apparatus in the room. One of my favorites was a solar collector set up as a curved mirror, which could spontaneously burn anything placed at its focal point when the mirror collected basic sunlight. Wood plastic etc. just by pointing at the sun. Painting things black accelerated the effect. I threw things around the room, hung stuffed animals in one corner and had an air gun that fired tennis balls at them from the other corner. We dropped things from third story windows, rotated bicycle wheels and carried them around the room to experience torque, Used lasers to develop the concept of relativity, etc. I had a great experience in college at one University as well, we had a lab that produced holograms using lasers, and a machine shop where we were tasked with designing and creating industrial hand tools like C-Clamps, slotted microwave lines, etc. U Maine and Arizona State were great experiences.

Jacobsen: Where were you a marketing and sales manager?

Durgin: After the first decade I worked for two US electronic component manufacturers over 20 years time, managing product and accounts world-wide, the first company in Rhode Island with about $10M annually, the second company about $100M annually located in Florida, NY and SC. Both times serving Defense, aerospace, industrial, optical communication industries. Products were RF, microwave, millimeter wave components primarily.

Jacobsen: Were the engineering manager and business manager roles, in any way, associated with one another – other than through you working them?

Durgin: Not at first, the business manager was for my ex-wife’s private school she founded. When I was running the books for that, I was working as RF engineer designing high power TV transmitter equipment and had a third job teaching college physics.

Jacobsen: Where were you an engineering consultant? What does an engineering consultant do? (Please, for the love of anybody’s God, don’t say, “Consults on engineering.” Unless, you want eye-rolls from high-IQ society members who happen upon this interview.)

Durgin: Best is by way of a short example. Over the past 20 years I cultivated and developed hundreds of business contacts. I have also developed my own skills in design, manufacturing, test and development of electronic components and equipment for the communication industry – primarily operating at RF and microwave and millimeter wave frequencies. I now entertain projects for certain customers, and a typical transaction is a phone call or a face-to-face conversation facilitated by my travel to a company like Northrup Grumman or Lockheed or BAE or Boeing or Raytheon. I would meet three or four engineers or project engineers and managers in a room and they would ask me questions regarding a problem or challenge they have with one of their systems. Like “We have radar transmitter functioning at 14Ghz with a 1-5% bandwidth that generates harmonics whose energy is too high (thus interfering with other communication systems); can you design a 20 Watt 14 GHz low pass filter in microstrip transmission line form that suppresses the second and third harmonic below 40-50dB and keep passband insertion loss below 1dB?” I then must assess the manufacturability of such a product, but I cannot always do this without spending some time researching how large and what materials and what architecture with which to build the product. Many other issues typically come up, mostly to do with manufacturability, cost and time. The customer and I then must negotiate price, quantities over the next 2 to 3 years etc. Great variability occurs from customer to customer, from project to project and from product to product; but my job is to solve all these types of problems as a consulting engineer. Sometimes it involves bringing in other experts. Sometimes the project occurs only once: customer doesn’t call me again….sometimes they call me again six months later with a second project. If I’m lucky I get a short or long term contract and work with them every month on a number of projects. Occasionally on the first time around enough information can be gleaned from the nature of the problem that the customer completely changes their mind about the direction. Perhaps some of their engineers could actually design it and farm it out to a familiar manufacturer. It’s really no different than any other forum where a salesman or builder architect attempts to sell something to somebody who can use the product or skill. One difference is that in my world the business people I work with are not only engineers but RF engineers, likely doing design work or business for years prior. And further this exposes the fact I learned long ago that no matter how much experience a businessman might have there is no way he will never learn enough about the engineering process on the job….one must have the degree. The other side of that coin is any degreed engineer, advanced or not…..that engineer can learn business on the job just by doing business, one doesn’t need to go to college to get a business degree. Much more difficult or impossible to teach a businessman engineering skills outside of university, but very easy to teach an engineer business skills outside of college.

Jacobsen: Founder and President, what business or enterprise?

Durgin: D.E.E., My consulting business as RF/Microwave design engineer.

Jacobsen: What is this mix of humour, polymath, and paradox, for a genius? Are geniuses, in some sense, paradoxes in the form of a living Hegelian dialectic blossoming as “Synthesis”?

Durgin: Not sure I can explain that in less than a year, but it takes an extraordinary amount of effort to work on a great paradox, often leading to unexpected discoveries and illuminations. Only hard word produces valuable discovery. If one is not already a genius one certainly can become a genius just by doing this. Being a polymath really helps because working on two or three or five separate projects not directly related to one another allows the brain to rest on one project but also unconsciously work on the others. Helmholtz discussed this. Just study all of the work the physicists were doing at the end of the 19th century and see how Einstein put together a great many known conflicts and paradoxes to then work for nearly 20 years before he came up with the brilliant theory to explain it all. Electromagnetism led to Relativity. But he also worked on other things, inspecting patents for work, but publishing 4 papers in one year (1905) on different subjects. Kinetic motion of atoms, the photoelectric effect, electrodynamics and the energy content of matter. That’s genius. Electrodynamics was first synthesized by Maxwell 30 years earlier, but Einstein used those conclusions to discover that Relativity also dictated the rules of Electromagnetism. It turns out that relativity essentially dictates the rules of all physics, even physics not yet discovered. Monumental, without question. Depending on how willing the individual is to step outside of one’s philosophical and experiential comfort zone the paradox may or may not be solved but a lot of other problems never considered could be. In my view a genius must walk in the shoes of more than just a few others in order to truly understand the world and to understand oneself. One must master the current scientific state of the art. This means constantly reassessing the knowledge one has gained and constantly seeking MORE knowledge in order to reassess all that prior knowledge. This is similar to building a pyramid, it’s an extraordinary amount of work in the beginning. Once one nears the top the work becomes easier and easier…..affecting much more with less effort, except if one finds imperfections in the bottom layers (invariably one WILL and I have) one cannot simply go down there and adjust it….one must completely disassemble the pyramid and build it again. This seems disheartening at first but doing it causes one one’s knowledge too deepen very rapidly. I would consider anyone willing to do that and stay sane is at least partly genius. And I would also consider anyone who is willing to go through with all this? At some point one must learn to be acquainted with a lot of cosmic humor. Inevitability in a nutshell. Working in the woods for three days straight pulling a 2 ton rock out of a 15 foot deep hole with two chains or three wrapped around it with the other ends wrapped around two trees….and inch by inch by inch moving the stone up and having it catch on other stones every five minutes so that a crowbar is necessary to nudge it free, eventually nearing the top of the hole on that third day to then have one chain slip off and the other chain snap due to the immense force, and the boulder bounce back down into the hole. How does that feel? What is anger? No matter how careful or patient one was, one needs humor at that point. What utter moron would want to do this?

Jacobsen: What makes science “the true and final method of finding things out; finding THE truth”?

Durgin: Cannot be answered simply or quickly. Many many books and texts have already been written addressing this question, harkening all the way back to the 13th century with Roger Bacon. To say nothing of Aristotle who started it all. The essence of why science is superior is because science changes its conclusions when more data comes in and enough overwhelming evidence arrives. Science is also a collective exercise that is self checking. A scientist must disclose all one’s resources and experimental methods so that others can perform them and see if they get the same answers/conclusions. Once a great many near identical experiments have been performed by a great many people, then mistakes are eventually eliminated, variances accounted for and the experiment gives way to accepted FACT. This makes science superior to any other method of finding the truth because it’s a collective effort, carried out by individuals. Science is ruthlessly rigorous in its approach, eliminating all but one variable in order to find the foundational physical law; Mathematics its most useful tool. Religion on the other hand never changes; its truths are asserted from the beginning and then no matter what evidentiary data comes in, those “truths” are still stubbornly clung to. This is the opposite of rationality and success. Backward in a bad way. In addition any physicist or scientist defending a hypothesis must include all forms of contradictory evidence before coming to a conclusion. Nowhere in religion or in any other irrational fact-gathering exercise is contradictory evidence used as a means of finalizing the truth. This is one of the reasons why the body of knowledge based on scientific inquiry is slow to change. The full truth may never be known, but the sure way to MOST CLOSELY APPROACH IT is through the method of Science, no question. Aside from the above, the best way to communicate my ideas about the importance of the question is to simply list some interesting ~90 books from my collection, through which I have voyaged over 25 years of study, related work and contemplation. Many of these are game changers:

#548 Relativity by Einstein

#1321 Euclids Elements

#2338 Enoch 3 by Hugo oberg

#567 Genius by James Gleick (on Feynman)

#1165 The song of Roland by D. Sayers

#1211 Nicolas Flamel by Laurinda Dixon

#1704 Isaac Newton by Gleick

———-

# 680 Electrodynamics by Melvin Schwartz

# 709 General theory of relativity by Paul Dirac

# 700 Gravitation by Misner, Thorne and Wheeler

#1113 Primer for Gauge Theory by Moriyasu

#1114 Emmy Noether’s Wonderful Theory by Dwight Neuenschwander

#1426 Mechanics by Lev Landau and Lifshitz

#1433 Variational Principles of mechanics by Cornelius Lanczos

———-

#688 Mysterium Coniunctionis by Carl Jung

#718 Psychology and Alchemy by Jung

#113 Cosmic Code by Heinz Pagels

#801 Gödel’s Proof by Newman and Nagel

#195 Gödel, Escher, Bach by Hofstadter

#741 Labyrinths by Jorge Luis Borges

#3 lost keys of freemasonry by manly hall

#6 morals and dogma by Albert pike

———-

#1209 The Zohar by Daniel Matt

#1100 Sacred Vault of Enoch by John Yarker

#752 Infinite world of MC Escher by Abradale

#701 Sacred Geometry by Robert lawlor

#730 the Bahir by Aryeh Kaplan

#642 the Iliad and the odyssey of homer

#312 Dante’s divine comedy in Italian

#315 virgils Aeneid

#909 the grail legend by Emma Jung

#1127 the grail by Loomis

#1224 the holy grail by Norma Goodrich

#703 theatrum chemicum brittanicum by ashmole

#296 serpent in the sky by John west

———-

#769 Plutarch in 5 volumes by Goodwin

#969 Themis Aurea by Michael maier

#711 Heptameron arbatel of magic by Abano

#705 Greek myths by Robert graves

#217 Demon haunted world by Carl Sagan

#402 Uriels machine by Robert lomas

#99 Holy blood holy grail by Baigent Lincoln and Leigh

#122 the abc of relativity by Bertrand Russell

#452 Wholeness and the implicate order by David Bohm

#324 Freemasonry, it’s hidden meaning by George steinmetz

#5 Secret destiny of America by manly hall

#408 Alchemy by manly hall

#294 second messiah by Knight and lomas

#512 Pythagorean sourcebook by Guthrie

#444 divine pymander by shrine of wisdom

#1083 magicians of the gods by Graham Hancock

———–

#576 Engineering and the minds eye by Eugene Ferguson

#578 thermal physics by kittel and kroemer

#887 transmission lines by Robert chipman

#610 microwave engineering by Pozar

#866 microwave measurements by Montgomery

#607 waveguide handbook by n. Markuvitz

#865 microwave transmission circuits by Ragan

#587 microwave filters, impedance matching networks and coupling structures by matthei, young and Jones

#569 lasers by Jeff Hecht

#552 invention and evolution by French

#110 physics of immortality by Frank tipler

#190 liber 777 by Crowley

——–

#1111 the comacines by ravenscroft

#1094 secrets of the Phoenicians by Sanford holst

#1095 Greek science by Sarton

#2617 new materials for the history of man by RG Haliburton

#2618 exposition of the mysteries by John Fellows

#2619 landmarks of freemasonry by George Oliver

#423 book of Enoch by Charles Laurence (transl)

#159 the temple and the lodge by baigent & Leigh

#100 messianic legacy by baigent & Leigh

#125 Duncan’s ritual

#2339 cleopatras needles by EHW Budge

———

#2137 Childhoods End by Arthur c Clarke

#788 dwellings of the philosophers by fulcanelli

#1771 parzival by wolfram von eschenbach

———

#672 mathematicall praeface by John Dee

#852 ninth century and grail by Walter stein

#330 holy grail by manly p hall

#285 Phoenician origin of the Scots Britain’s in Anglo-Saxons by Lawrence Waddell

#1069 solving Stonehenge by Anthony Johnson

#46 Evolution of civilizations by Caroll Quigley

#318 paradise lost by John Milton

#777 hermetica by Walter Scott

#1019 golden game by stanislas k. De rola

#422 tower of alchemy by David Goddard

#731 Sefer yetzirah by Aryeh Kaplan

#1357 geometrical foundation of natural structures by Robert Williams

#1098 Chartres cathedral by Louis charpentier

——–

If one studies only half of these diligently and repeatedly over 5 to 10 years your mind will be transformed in unpredictable ways. I say it’s worth it, I’ve done it repeatedly with 15 times as many books over 30 years, changing my head each time. One good book read 20 times will change a man. 10 good books read 2 or 3 times is enough to question and doubt everything. 100 good books read and re-read perhaps 6, 7 or 20 times is enough to transform one’s thinking, and further brings the realization a thousand more should be read. 1000 books is enough.

Jacobsen: What has been the hardest high-range test taken by you? Why that one?

Durgin: By far the most difficult, most elegant and the most mentally rewarding was my attempt at the Isis test by Cooijmans about 15 years ago or so. This required me to research in many different directions in order to approach the solutions. Only 5 problems total (the essence of its elegance and superiority) and it took 3 months + of my time. I was eventually able to solve four out of the five problems but I submitted the test too soon: in my excitement and eagerness I had only really partially solved the other three. It wasn’t until I submitted the test, received a score of “1” and then reviewed the test again that I realized I needed to go further. Nevertheless this did not matter to me in the end because I was quite satisfied knowing I had solved all of them or nearly all of them. In real life one does not completely solve any problem the first time around. Not even close. This never happens in engineering or physics, surgery or psychology or anywhere; one must always go back to one’s work and improve upon it. Multiple times. Development by definition is never instantaneous. Perfection never attained. The Grail is never found, never intended to be found.

Footnotes

[1] Member, Giga Society.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 15, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/durgin-2; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

*High range testing (HRT) should be taken with honest skepticism grounded in the limited empirical development of the field at present, even in spite of honest and sincere efforts. If a higher general intelligence score, then the greater the variability in, and margin of error in, the general intelligence scores because of the greater rarity in the population.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Scott Durgin on Roman Catholicism, Science Fiction, Humour, and Jobs: Member, Giga Society (2) [Online]. June 2022; 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/durgin-2.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 15). Conversation with Scott Durgin on Roman Catholicism, Science Fiction, Humour, and Jobs: Member, Giga Society (2). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/durgin-2.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Scott Durgin on Roman Catholicism, Science Fiction, Humour, and Jobs: Member, Giga Society (2). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A, June. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/durgin-2>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Scott Durgin on Roman Catholicism, Science Fiction, Humour, and Jobs: Member, Giga Society (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/durgin-2.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Scott Durgin on Roman Catholicism, Science Fiction, Humour, and Jobs: Member, Giga Society (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (June 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/durgin-2.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Scott Durgin on Roman Catholicism, Science Fiction, Humour, and Jobs: Member, Giga Society (2)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/durgin-2>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Scott Durgin on Roman Catholicism, Science Fiction, Humour, and Jobs: Member, Giga Society (2)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/durgin-2.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Scott Durgin on Roman Catholicism, Science Fiction, Humour, and Jobs: Member, Giga Society (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): June. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/durgin-2>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Scott Durgin on Roman Catholicism, Science Fiction, Humour, and Jobs: Member, Giga Society (2) [Internet]. (2022, June 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/durgin-2.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

The Greenhorn Chronicles 8: Rachael Dent-Flynn on Flar Equine Experience

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.E, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 15, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,099

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Rachael Dent-Flynn is the Owner/Lead Facilitator of Flar Equine Experience. Flar Equine Experience facilitates life skills and relationships alongside horses. Dent-Flynn’s background is having a lived experience of trauma, coming out into the LGBTQ2+ community, & PTSD from volunteer firefighting. Knowing the lack of effective affordable resources for her own mental health journey, she wanted to be able to offer a healing experience that could help someone along their journeys. She discusses: experiences and training; horsemanship in Nova Scotia; Owner and Senior Facilitator of Flar Equine Experience; tasks and responsibilities; horse industry in Nova Scotia; resources; a mental health service; facilitate life skills and relationships; anxiety, depression, PTSD, impatience, and building trusting relationships; working on the aforementioned personal difficulties; people become involved in the horse industry in Nova Scotia; equine therapy; assisting veterans; statistics on veterans in Nova Scotia; clinical research and popular feedback; narratives coming to Flar Equine Experience; meaningful narratives; and support and/or become involved in Flar Equine Experience.

Keywords: Equine Assisted Learning Facilitator, Equine Assisted Personal Development Coach, Flar Equine Experience, Nova Scotia, Rachael Dent-Flynn.

The Greenhorn Chronicles 8: Rachael Dent-Flynn on Flar Equine Experience

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations after the interview.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What sorts of experiences and training were part of becoming a more mature and experienced equestrian?

Rachael Dent-Flynn[1],[2]: I got certified as an Equine Assisted Learning Facilitator & Equine Assisted Personal Development Coach; however, with horses, I’m always learning & growing as new methods are presented.

Jacobsen: How prominent is horsemanship in Nova Scotia? Most of Canadian equestrianism seems centralized in British Columbia, Alberta, and Ontario.

Dent-Flynn: It’s way behind the other provinces you’ve mentioned…however for no other reason than education and awareness of the effectiveness on mental health being in the presence of horses.

Jacobsen: You are the Owner and Senior Facilitator of Flar Equine Experience. Did you create it, too?

Dent-Flynn: Yes.

Jacobsen: What are the tasks and responsibilities involved with the ownership and senior facilitation work of Flar Equine Experience?

Dent-Flynn: Absolutely everything from horse care, welfare, and maintenance to running all the programs/sessions and then all the business side of things. 

Jacobsen: Flar Equine Experience is based in Hubley, NS. What is the state of the horse industry in Nova Scotia?

Dent-Flynn: It’s in need of provincial or federal recognition just like the other provinces. We have enough organizations doing it all for the right reasons, and for the best life for the horses and humans alike.

Jacobsen: What resources exist in Hubley to help with the maintenance, even growth, of Flar Equine Experience?

Dent-Flynn: Not many at all.

Jacobsen: On social media, Facebook specifically, it is listed as a mental health service. Why focus on mental health as the equine-based service of Flar Equine Experience?

Dent-Flynn: Absolutely, because now more than ever everyone needs to know the true empowering effectiveness skills you can gain from being in the presence of the horse that can then transfer into your own challenges in struggling away from the arena. 

Jacobsen: You facilitate life skills and relationships at Flar Equine Experience. How is this done, in a rather unique way?

Dent-Flynn: Yes, we sure do, through objectively driven skill based structured obstacles that you & your horse will navigate through together.

Jacobsen: If we can talk about it, please, the horses have helped with your anxiety, depression, PTSD, impatience, and building trusting relationships. How do animals speak to this for you?

Dent-Flynn: They have a natural ability to have us look within in the present moments as we navigate through the obstacles in the arena. While doing so, it brings all these challenges to the forefront where I couldn’t hide or bullshit my way through it or shut down and try and avoid it. So, in those instant moments, I had to recognize what was going on with me, name it, and then navigate differently through the obstacles with the horses. When I did that, it was both successful for my own confidence of doing it with a 1,200lb animal, but it was instant validation from the horse’s willingness to be right alongside me! Holy shit, totally empowering, and for me, that was my break-awake because years of talk therapy never provided that opportunity or feeling.

Jacobsen: How have horses, particularly, helped with working on the aforementioned personal difficulties?

Dent-Flynn: The skills learned alongside in the arena while navigating through challenges with a 1200lb teacher are able to be gained in a safe, non-judgemental, healing environment….which in turn transfers into challenging situations away from the arena, where I caught myself taking a second to breath, remembering how I dealt with it in the arena, and then navigating through it differently in daily life situations to live a more positive, confident overall better life.

Jacobsen: How can people become involved in the horse industry in Nova Scotia?

Dent-Flynn: Many ways, volunteering is always amazing, can never have too many hands helping around the barn. Fundraising for local equine organizations as we aren’t funded currently, get the word out there by word of mouth and lastly is education and awareness of all the places doing phenomenal healing with horses.

Jacobsen: What is equine therapy?

Dent-Flynn: Simply, it is experiential learning providing life skills and personal development opportunities alongside horses that transfers into all other avenues of daily life.

Jacobsen: How does Flar Equine Experience apply this to assisting veterans?

Dent-Flynn: Call, email, social media or drop by! 

Jacobsen: What are the statistics on veterans in Nova Scotia?

Dent-Flynn: 1,300 are war service veterans, 385,000 are Canadian Armed Forces, regular & primary veterans.

Jacobsen: What has been the clinical research and popular feedback on equine therapy from veterans coming into and out of Flar Equine Experience?

Dent-Flynn: That they have never felt so safe, not judged & that they can still be hyper vigilant, but it’s in a different more positive way & they have something to continuously look forward to.

Jacobsen: Veterans remain an interesting portion of Canada. Both honoured and venerated, though neglected and impoverished in numerous ways. We honour them with ceremonies and days of celebration. We venerate them with medals and words of affirmation. We neglect them with lack of various resources. We impoverish them with lies about honour and dignity in, in truth, having them as hired killers for the State, who have PTSD, damaged bodies and minds, and tensions on their social and familial ties in the midst of service – even after service. How do you navigate these various narratives coming to Flar Equine Experience?

Dent-Flynn: We couldn’t agree more & we love this question because we are doing everything we can at FLAR to be the “catcher” of those who feel they have been failed by everyone else. This is a common theme to this day and many times the first session conversation. However, the beauty of the horses that ends up most times in the vet becoming very emotional is that the horses can’t lie (they aren’t made up to) and they don’t judge, which instantly is overwhelmingly positive because most haven’t felt that supported directly or indirectly in many, many years.

Jacobsen: What are the more meaningful narratives of success coming out of equine therapy through Flar Equine Experience for you?

Dent-Flynn: When individuals can feel totally confident in articulating their once seen as weak challenged stories of struggles into telling their journey in hopes to help someone else not feel alone in their struggles.

Jacobsen: How can people support and/or become involved in Flar Equine Experience?

Dent-Flynn: Many ways, share all the social media things, volunteer, help fundraisers or find sponsors, help with marketing & promotions for awareness and keep the conversations going!

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Rachael.

Dent-Flynn: Thank you so much. 

Footnotes

[1] Owner/Lead Facilitator, Flar Equine Experience

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 15, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dent-flynn; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightpublishing.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 8: Rachael Dent-Flynn on Flar Equine Experience[Online]. June 2022; 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dent-flynn.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 15). The Greenhorn Chronicles 8: Rachael Dent-Flynn on Flar Equine Experience. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dent-flynn.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 8: Rachael Dent-Flynn on Flar Equine Experience. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E, June. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dent-flynn>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 8: Rachael Dent-Flynn on Flar Equine Experience.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dent-flynn.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Greenhorn Chronicles 8: Rachael Dent-Flynn on Flar Equine Experience.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E (June 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dent-flynn.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 8: Rachael Dent-Flynn on Flar Equine Experience’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dent-flynn>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 8: Rachael Dent-Flynn on Flar Equine Experience’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dent-flynn.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 8: Rachael Dent-Flynn on Flar Equine Experience.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.E (2022): June. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dent-flynn>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 8: Rachael Dent-Flynn on Flar Equine Experience[Internet]. (2022, June 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dent-flynn.

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Hindemburg Melão Jr. and Tor Arne Jørgensen on A.I., I.Q., and the Future: Founder, Sigma Society; 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (1)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.D, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 15, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 11,062

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Hindemburg Melão Jr. founded the Sigma Society and the Sigma Test. Tor Arne Jørgensen is a member of 50+ high-I.Q. societies. They discuss: high-level IQ; Elon Musk; a multiplanetary race; NASA and SpaceX; the next 100 years; AI; the future prospects of man; genius; and the basis of AI.

Keywords: A.I., Elon Musk, Hindemburg Melão Jr., I.Q., Leonardo da Vinci, NASA, Sigma Society, Sigma Test, SpaceX, Tor Arne Jørgensen.

Hindemburg Melão Jr. and Tor Arne Jørgensen on A.I., I.Q., and the Future: Founder, Sigma Society; 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (1)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

*Updated June 17, 2022.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Can high-level IQ tests be legitimized to the same extent as professional supervised tests?

Hindemburg Melão Jr.[1]*: I think this question was partially answered in the preamble to the interview, but there are a few details I would like to add.

International Mathematical Olympiads use relatively primitive methods of assessment compared to psychometric methods, but the content of the questions is sufficiently difficult for the levels at which they are intended to assess. The types of problems are not the same as what a mathematician would need to solve, but they do share some necessary cognitive processes. Under these conditions, scores proved to be good predictors of intellectual production in the future, including for important awards such as the Fields Medal. The charts below summarize this situation:

Source: https://ramanujan.xyz/read-our-imo-research/

Psychometric tests use sophisticated standardization methods, much superior to those used in the IMO, and have good construct validity up to 2 standard deviations above the mean, and an adequate level of difficulty up to 2 standard deviations above the mean. But for higher levels the construct validity and the difficulty level are not adequate. As a result, Terman’s studies showed good predictions for academic and professional/financial production, but failed at the highest levels, even showing a negative correlation.

This suggests that while the quality of standardization is important, it is less important than the quality of items in terms of “appropriate difficulty” and “appropriate construct validity” at the levels at which it is intended to be measured.

So for the 70 to 130 range, clinical tests are actually better than hrIQts because they use larger samples and the standardization methods are generally more sophisticated. However, for scores above 130, hrIQts better meet the questions about level of difficulty and construct validity, which are apparently more important criteria for predicting remarkable results in real-world problems.

In addition, some hrIQts are standardized with higher quality than clinical tests, although this is not the most important issue, it can be a differentiator.

Tor Arne Jørgensen[2],[3]*: Not in the state of being accepted as reliable as the test base in most cases does not reach what is viewed as acceptable. Most High range tests vary from low 20 attempts to high 300-400 attempts in most cases per test, whereby the professional test is based on 6000-20000 attempts per test. Some of course have a larger test base but not many, so the outcome will not be nuanced enough to be validated as real. Furthermore, it is not a team of professional test developers with a psychological background who develop these high range tests, they are thus of debatable value to estimate.

It should be added that even amateur designed logic tests, hit quite close to the certified tests in most cases in my experience, where deviations of around 2-3 IQ points have been found regarding my own tests, and it must be said that I am not a certified phycologist by any means, but from the 400 attempts I have had on my own high range tests, then the results is quite clear as norm go…

Jacobsen: Is Elon Musk the Leonardo Da Vinci of today?

Melão Jr.: Musk is very smart and very creative, his IQ is somewhere close to 155 (σ =16) and his creativity level is perhaps equivalent to something like 180.

In Leonardo’s case, if his IQ were put on the same scale, it would be close to 250 to 260 (σ =16, T). Obviously this is only possible because the true distribution of the scores is not normal, otherwise in a historical population of 100 billion the maximum possible rarity would be 10^-11, corresponding to 207.3 (σ =16). To better understand how the determination of scores should be done, I suggest reading this article: https://www.sigmasociety.net/escalasqi

Some people are especially skilled at figuring out what questions need to be asked to solve important problems. Other people are especially skilled at finding answers. Leonardo was exceptional at both, asking the “right” questions and finding efficient and creative answers, perhaps 9 to 10 standard deviations above the mean (in a dense-tailed distribution, as noted above). Musk is very good at asking important questions (perhaps 5 standard deviations above average), but (for now) he needs his army of geniuses to find the answers Leonardo found on his own. Musk is also very good at solving problems (perhaps 3 to 4 standard deviations above average) and has a huge net worth, which boosts his production by outsourcing the work of many others.

Musk’s financial resources, he would probably have built working helicopters in the 15th century, but with animal traction (it would be unlikely to invent an engine at that stage in which the Technology was), and many other things even more extraordinary than what he did, actually did.

On the other hand, in a short time Musk “will be able” to implant computer prostheses in the brain and will surpass Leonardo. It might, but it probably won’t anytime soon, because it won’t be safe at first, it will need to be tested on monkeys, then human volunteers, etc.

Jørgensen: Comparing these two people is not easy by any means as they on both parts are quite unique in any sense, whereas they are driven by a regiment of absolutes. Your inherent qualities are what have helped to shape their outcome into the history books. Brilliant to be woad, where qualities of both the creative and logic-based intellect are above the norm as to the general population. To look at these two individuals as fortified settlers, paving the way forward for innovation and development through quantum leaps for humanity in all its rejuvenation of renewal. Intellectually, these two guys are not so different in the bare nature and their continuous strives towards future innovations, one more hopelessly lost and barred by his contemporaries regards to Leonardo Da Vinci, even more so than the later Elon Musk. Leonardo’s, in some way desperate attempt at fame and fortune trapped by the ancients’ dogmas and frigates in his heyday.

Leonardo Da Vinci an intellect of contemporary currents, intentionally shaped for the individual’s right to be recognized as real and genuine. A man whose brilliance is still increasing in his hardening, is to be regarded as Elon Musk’s superior as to both intellect and creative output. Elon Musk is brilliant in all his glory, but still he is not to be painted with the same statuettes as Leonardo. That said, only time will tell who will be viewed with the greatest influence of these two exemplified giants perceived by utopian framework conditions by and for the artistic innovation and common enrichment of utilitarianism.

Jacobsen: We can certainly see ourselves as a multiplanetary race in the near or distant future, and is that something we want to be then?

Melão Jr.: The technology necessary for terraforming planets or other astronomical objects should be achieved in a short time, perhaps it is already available, although it has not yet been applied. But the time it takes to make another star habitable depends a lot on how big the differences between that star are compared to Earth, in addition to the size of the star, the star’s evolution rate, etc. We still don’t know whether the most promising venture would be terraforming Venus, Mars or the Moon. I would bet on the Moon for the short term and Venus for the long term, but there is still not enough data to decide. Alternatives like Europa, Titan or Enceladus are very cold, perhaps this is more difficult to resolve.

No Solar System object, other than Earth, appears to be sufficiently suited for the development and/or maintenance of complex life as they are now. Perhaps extremophiles like tardigraphs can live on Mars, without the need for major changes to the planet. However, to colonize Mars with humans it would be necessary to solve some very difficult problems:

  1. Mars’ magnetic field is very tenuous, insufficient to deflect lethal radiation. To increase the intensity of this magnetic field naturally and without needing a continuous supply that consumes energy, Mars would need a rotating metallic core of a certain size. It would be an incredibly difficult engineering process to change that and far removed from our current technology.
  2. The atmosphere of Mars has 0.6% of the pressure of the Earth’s atmosphere and is composed of 95% CO 2, with only 2.8% nitrogen and 0.2% oxygen. Earth’s atmospheric pressure at the top of Mount Everest is about 30% of the pressure at sea level, and breathing is already very difficult at the top of Everest, with high risks of nose and ear bleeds. So it would need to increase 100 to 200 times the total mass of gases on Mars and increase 10,000 to 15,000 times the mass of oxygen. How to do this? Musk commented on the possibility of generating more gases in the atmosphere of Mars through nuclear explosions, a completely speculative hunch, to “test and see what happens”. I think it’s a reasonable guess, despite not being supported by anything concrete. Perhaps an interesting alternative to this strategy is to develop genetically edited plants to transform soil nutrients into oxygen. Simply changing CO 2 from the atmosphere to O 2 would not solve it because there is not enough CO It would need to increase the atmospheric mass a lot, in addition to the change in composition, and even then it would be complicated because as the gravitational acceleration on the surface of Mars is 0.37 times that of Earth, so if the density of the air were equal to that of Earth, the pressure would be 0.37, just slightly higher than the pressure at the top of Everest. If I increased the pressure 2.5 to 3 times to make it equal to Earth’s, then I would need to investigate the health effects of having 3x the air density.

There are several other negatives, but less serious than the first two. Mars’ orbital eccentricity is 0.0934, while Earth’s is 0.0167. As a result, the range of thermal variation on Mars is vastly greater. On Earth, the seasons of the year are predominantly determined by the inclination of the axis of rotation, but in the case of Mars the predominant factor would be the variation in the distance from the Sun, which would also be added to the variations related to the inclination of the axis. It would not be a prohibitive range of variation for life, but it would create serious problems for humans. The photos below show the variation in the size of the South polar ice cap in just 2 days. Nothing similar happens in Antarctica (not to the same extent). This sublimated ice cap material is added to the atmosphere, substantially increasing the average total pressure. Weather stations on Mars would be much more marked than on Earth, not only with much greater temperature variations, but also with changes in CO 2 concentrations in the air, relative humidity, etc. And it would be useless to try to “fix” this in the ice caps, because it is a process related to the temperature variations inherent to orbital motion and axial tilt.

Despite these difficult points to resolve, Mars has several positives: the length of the day is very similar to Earth’s day, so it would not require much adaptation. In the cases of the Moon and particularly Venus, day length could be a big problem. The fact that Mars’ albedo is much lower than Earth’s contributes a little to its not being so cold, even though it is 50% farther from the Sun than Earth.

Venus has a very tenuous magnetosphere as well, but this is largely due to its very low rotation speed. Accelerating its rotation would be less difficult than introducing a giant metallic core to Mars, but it would still be immeasurably difficult and would require a much higher level of propulsive energy production than we currently have. When such technology is available, connecting suitable thrusters and with sufficient fuel, this process of accelerating rotation could take a few thousand years. Solar energy itself could serve as a complementary fuel source for the thrusters. At the same time, it would be possible to drain or condense part of the atmosphere. The components of the atmosphere are not very “friendly”, but H 2 SO 4 includes H 2 and O 4, which can produce water, oxygen and ozone. The amount of nitrogen is 3 times greater than on Earth, so I would just need to figure out how to produce the proper chemical reactions. Perhaps in 10,000 to 100,000 years it will be possible to make Venus habitable, with an atmosphere similar to ours, a 24-hour day, a sufficient magnetic field. The current albedo of Venus is 0.76, while that of Earth is 0.39, so although Venus is closer to the Sun, as it absorbs less light, its temperature could be maintained at a level similar to that of Earth, at least in the regions of higher latitudes. When the atmosphere is changed, the albedo must also change, but it must be possible to reasonably control this parameter in order to leave the appropriate temperature. The length of the day time doesn’t seem to me to be an issue in itself, but modifying this would be useful for the magnetic capo reason. In the case of Mars, whose mass is 1/8 that of Venus, it might also be possible to shorten the day from 24 hours to 6 minutes, in which case perhaps Mars’ magnetic field would also reach a level suitable for deflecting harmful radiation, but it would produce many other problems, because the flattening of the planet caused by the pseudo-centrifugal force would be 250 times greater, that is, the planet would be elongated more than an egg, changing several fundamental parameters at the equator and poles, and it may not even be possible to maintain balance hydrostatic effect of an object with these dynamic characteristics, the lithosphere might rupture, or melt due to the heating caused by friction with the magma of the lower layer, the Coriolis effect would be very intense and there would be hurricanes all the time in high latitudes, not to mention the difficulty that it would be to live on a planet where the sun rises and if it could every 3 minutes, the tidal effects would also have a very short cycle etc. So, although the mass of Venus is much greater than that of Mars, it seems more plausible to me to reduce a rotation from 243 days to 1 day, as in Venus, than to reduce a rotation from 1 day to 0.004 days, as in Mars. Both would likely increase the magnetic field by increasing the rotation speed of the core, but the side effects on Mars would be catastrophic.

Anyway, these terraforming processes I believe will only serve as “experiments”, because there will be no advantage in moving to Venus, Moon or Mars. It will be important to use these astronomical objects as “laboratories” to learn how to terraform other astronomical objects, as there will be many unforeseen issues that will need to be resolved during this process, and the first attempts will be very likely to fail. Thus, for a few million years there will be an opportunity for learning, correcting errors, etc. and then apply the process to terraform some exoplanet to meet the real need to leave the Solar System before the Sun leaves the main sequence. If you were to learn how to do it only when necessary to switch to another system, and failed in the attempt, it would be disastrous. That’s why it’s important to test on neighboring planets first, although the objective is not to occupy them, per se. Although the sun is predicted to take 5 billion years to run out of its hydrogen fuel, along this process there will be several major changes in a few hundred million years, both in size and in temperature and luminosity. A 10% increase or decrease in brightness would be a very serious problem. The current model of evolution for G2-V class astronomical objects like the Sun predicts that in 1 billion years the Sun’s luminosity will be about 9% greater than today, so we won’t have several billion years to move into a star system. more stable, maybe around a red dwarf or something. It’s also debatable whether a red dwarf would be an option, because if our main energy source is starlight, with a Dyson sphere or something, maybe a red dwarf wouldn’t be able to meet our energy demand. Another problem is that the current model of evolution is based on many hypotheses that may be wrong or inaccurate. Recently, the Sun’s metallicity was found to be about 43% higher than previously thought, which has several implications for the pace of evolution and how long it will take before we need to move due to the overheating of our region. If there are other parameters revised, the 1 billion-year timeframe can be reduced to a few hundred million (or extended, if we’re lucky).

Perhaps the planets and other astronomical objects within the Solar System are used for tourism, or for the escape of some “privileged” people in case a war renders Earth uninhabitable, although it is probably less difficult to “fix” the Earth after a nuclear war than to make another planet welcoming enough. Even after a devastating nuclear war, Earth would hardly be as inhospitable as Mars, for example. If in the next decades or centuries weapons even more destructive than the current ones emerge, and if they are used, then perhaps they will be able to make Earth more uninhabitable than other planets, in which case migration would be an alternative for some. It is also important to consider that future inhabitants of the Earth may have different needs than the current ones, perhaps the brains will be preserved, but the rest of the body may be replaced by something more versatile, which can withstand higher and lower temperatures and other more hostile conditions, keeping the brain thermally insulated so that it does not suffer damage, with adequate protections also for radiation, etc. Or simply swapping the brain for a homologous structure that is more robust to adverse weather conditions.

It is also likely that “humans” will not move to just one planet, but to several, as the terraforming tests will not work every time, so we will need a reasonable sample of trials to have a good chance that at least some tests “work”. And once the new planets are available for occupation, they are likely to be occupied. It is also possible that genetic and prosthetic changes are made to make humans, animals and plants adapted to other astronomical objects, rather than just altering the astronomical objects to adapt to us. This should make the whole process faster and promote a better harmonization and integration of beings with the planets on which they will live, since some planetary and stellar parameters will probably be very difficult to adjust, such as the amount of UVB rays emitted by the star, necessary for the synthesis of vitamin D, which is currently important for our immune system, but if we happen to inhabit a planet around a red dwarf, the UVB emission will be much lower. In short, it is a question that could be written in a book about it, because it is very complex. But this is an outline of some possibilities.

Jørgensen: The future as a multiplanetary race is for me an inevitable scenario that one cannot get away from.

But it must be said to what extent we as humans would be able to look at ourselves as a human being in today’s biological sense. This with reference to some of what is being referred to by Mr Melao, about being able to adapt to the planetary conditions that you will encounter. What does one mean by this, well that we as humans are more easily served by transformation our structural set-up by order to adapt to what we may face of climatic challenges, etc., on the planet on which we visualize being able to build our new societies upon. If we as a human species are to ensure our continued existence, then it will not be in our current capsules, but in an alternate state trough adapted evolution, whereby the human biology must interphase with technological innovation, thus resulting as a preformation of a bionic entity.

This adaptation is far more realistic compared to the alternative method by way of terraforming new planets to alter the climatic environment to suite us as humans. So, to the question “do we want to be a multiplanetary species?” Yes, I believe so with all my heart, to not prevent the demise of our very existence is unfadeable to me. We as humans are still in our infancy state, our story has not been told and certainly not being lived in full yet. No, there is too much to be lost if we do not consider ourselves as preservable into this alternate state as an multiplanetary race in the future to come. We must ensure survival through conformance towards preservation of the biological galactical imprint by all cause.

What I think about our own planet becoming smaller and smaller is in the sense of feeling that the earth is becoming more and more narrower, due to the simplification of travel methods and a normalization of the fact that everyone is now in one sense or another a globetrotter, with reference to a global traveler. Hundreds of years ago, the earth was a huge place that could take several months to travel from one corner of the world to another, later it took weeks, then days, and now hours. Our planet is not big enough nor exciting enough that we are now just starting to feel the ever-growing urge to move beyond our own palatial comforts to other more worldly endeavors beyond, out there somewhere beyond the heavenly stars.

If one is to put the human existence in the following perspective:

Man, and its existence do not extend over a very long time.

Our total existence in relation to a single human being has so far reached the age of 14-15 years, in the sense that our race of homo sapiens is now as I see it in the stage of a normal teenager. In the very early stages, thousands of years ago we were pondering about the world and all its content with stat at point in time, the marvelous and confusing grandeur, we began to explore our nearby surroundings as on a par with a baby exploring his own crib. Then as time went on, we humans evolve further and forward in time to a few hundred years ago, we could explore not only our nearby areas, but also explore across borders and continents during several weeks on expeditions.

This again can be seen as a young child at the age of 7-8, who is now moving away from the safe surroundings of the house and exploring his immediate environment.

Forward in time again, to the age where we were introduced to general aviation, which meant that we could now travel anywhere in the world within days and finally hours in the present time. This can be compared to the teenagers who again travel further, beyond now on much longer journeys across national borders etc.

The meaning of this is that we are now soon ready to take the next step towards the age of majority to move out of our safe surroundings, as human urge to move further out away from our own planet towards something new and unknown. I firmly believe that we are still in an early stage of our total existence and have about three quarters and a bit again to live, in the relation to the normal human life expectancy of around eighty years+.

Jacobsen: What could be the reason why NASA did not intend to reduce rampant spending and did like SpaceX and reuse the rockets in the same way as when SpaceX does today?

Melão Jr.: I haven’t followed the evolution of this, so maybe my answer doesn’t make sense. But I think that NASA didn’t have the technology for that, nor was it interested in using part of the budget to try to develop this technology. If they used money for that and couldn’t solve the rocket reuse problem, the money would be lost. SpaceX took the gamble and it worked. After SpaceX has solved the problem and the technology is now available, NASA doesn’t have to risk the venture until it learns how to do it. Just repeat what SpaceX has already shown to work. So my guess is that maybe that’s the main reason or at least one of the reasons.

Jørgensen: The basis for NASA lack of reusability or the mere thought about it by imprudent intent, as to not make it its task to take upon this type of innovation of thereby speculative content is not yet clear to me. What is certain, is that now everyone sees what SpaceX has successfully managed, and in a shared note of what Blue Origin has also done to some degree with reference to SpaceX technology advances regarding concept of reusability and space travel. This must make NASAs executive leaders think back and grimly reconsider its previous fallacies of galloping spending costs and their taxpayer’s later mistrust in return. At one point, it seems that NASA was about to give up all hope of looking towards other planets in the faintest of possibility as to human space travel and the hope of colonizing other nearby systems.

Fortunately for us all, we are now led by Elon Musk’s brilliancy and persistency, so now the hope burns brighter the ever before, a beacon to be behold.

But back to the insane approach of the galloping costs for NASA’s space program. The US state’s belief in what one would assume to be the most competent people in the relativity of space odyssey and its particularities, must then also be governed by the most competent economists by spending such astronomical sums as NASA seizes from the US state’s budgets each year. It is conceivable that one must get a type of divine revelation of a new ingenious shooting star, with which can reignite those most impertinent innovations beyond that oneself is unable to imagine in order to rekindle that all important flame within us all.

A type of remnant of a gone by era whereby a new state of mind initiatives that only the most brilliant intellectuals can enable us to understand in a never-ending alternate state such as Elon Musk has now installed and by with which we the benefactors can thus reap the benefits of taking all those educational lessons with us for further study within the field of notation.

Jacobsen: Can we expect that in the next 100 years we humans will encounter new extraterrestrials races?

Melão Jr.: I’m assuming the question is about living extraterrestrials or that at some point were already alive (fossilized, for example) and whose ancestors are also extraterrestrials. Otherwise the answer would be easy, because if a couple of humans go to a lunar base and they have a child there, the child will be a selenite (or lunarian), or something, or a martian if it’s on a base on Mars, and that should happen in less time, of 100 years. But I imagine you would like to rule out this type of extraterrestrial. So if we’re talking about extraterrestrials whose ancestors have also been extraterrestrials for over 100 years, the probability goes down, but it’s still likely, in my opinion. Objects like Oumuamua probably pass through the Solar System frequently, but are rarely detected because there are no monitoring programs for this. When a systematic project is developed to study objects of this type, then our range in a few decades will be much greater than the current one, reaching far beyond the objects of the Solar System, not because we will be able to go to other astronomical objects in such a short time, but because we will better take advantage of opportunities to study interstellar objects that pass in our vicinity, but which are not currently being studied with due attention.

The answer to this question will also depend a lot on some semantic and etymological details, related to the classification of an organism as “living”. Our current concept of life is very limited, to the point that if we found living organisms with certain properties very different from those we know, we might not recognize them as “living”. The evolution of the concept of “life” should play an important role in this process, expanding the scope of this concept and making it more inclusive. Robots, for example, may be considered “alive” if they meet certain criteria.

In reaction to communicating with intelligent life, in projects like SETI, I think it’s less likely, because our current technology based on radio signals didn’t exist 100 years ago and should become obsolete in 100 years, so it’s very unlikely that alien civilizations are precisely at a stage compatible with ours. Another problem is that the signal strength, even if it is very collimated, would not have a very long range (10 kpc, for example). More advanced communication technologies are more likely to use something like quantum tunneling or some other faster method, and not only would there be no loss in signal strength, this would extend the range to the entire universe and allow for delay-free responses. I’m not saying that this technology will necessarily come from tunneling, but from something equivalent in terms of speed, preservation of “cleanliness” (no noise) and signal strength. But I don’t know if in 100 years it will be available. Maybe so, but I think less than 50% probability.

Jørgensen: As I think it will just be an inevitable fact to be behold in the near to far future, as to the possibility of interaction of new planetary species, the answer is yes. I find myself puzzling as to when this will happen, not if it ever will happen. But it should be noted as to what state, shape or form this alien encounter will be presented in…

Jacobsen: What can we humans expect from AI, according to health, war, space travel etc… in the near future?

Melão Jr.: It depends on some factors. If there are enough investments from now on, in 10 to 15 years we could have some people immortal, or at least have some people with the aging process dramatically slowed down and then stopped, while advances continue to later reverse this process and arrive at immortality. and then resuscitation. The strategy for this already exists, but to be put into practice it would need computational resources and a qualified team dedicating time to it.

Some of the important recent technological leaps have encountered barriers that the researchers involved are failing to overcome. AlphaZero was able to go up from -3000 (negative 3000) rating to 3500 rating with 9 hours of training, learning more in those 9 hours than all of humanity combined has been able to learn about chess in over 500 years. However, AlphaZero’s evolution curve bumped into an asymptotic limit and if it kept training for 100 years it wouldn’t be able to climb from 3500 to 3900, maybe not even 3800 or 3700. This effect also happens with Shogi, Gô, Atari games and probably almost all board games and other types of problems if addressed by this solution strategy.

If you use more processing power, yes, it can reach 4000, but in terms of improving heuristics, it has stagnated. A similar problem happens with Lc0 and StockFish. Stockfish shows no real improvement since version 13, the difference from version 15 to 13 is 4 points, while the uncertainty in the measurement is 17 points.

Source: https://ccrl.chessdom.com/ccrl/4040/rating_list_all.html

Demis Hassabis’ idea for using reinforcement deep learning the way he did was important in getting to this stage, but there is no prospect of moving forward until the issues that make the next step possible are resolved. In the case of AlphaZero I don’t know exactly what they did other than what they make available on the site, but in the case of Lc0 there is more public information and the system itself is available to be tested extensively, and there are many errors in Lc0 and optimization details inadequate that need improvement, and I suppose there are a lot of similar problems in the case of AlphaZero, maybe not quite the same problems as Lc0, but just as serious, certainly.

Jørgensen: If one looks at what we today experience regarding artificial intelligence, then for me it will be regarded towards optimism, this based on the extensive help that one can now receive in so many ways. Going forward, when a self-perception will be duly important for AI and its denotative constructs, can then quickly be turned witnessed by genuine concern of the unknown. One even hopes that the help that we all enjoy and know today for example by what Google Search, Google Translate, Google Maps etc., does for each of us every day all around the world. So, the way forward I hope, will address the preconception of securing humanity further for a common coexistence, with the fusing of our biological matter with the technological artificial intelligence into a higher form for symbiotic existential awareness, as an all-important first step to further human advances in the hope of preservation of our existential survival.

Regards to the topic of warfare, we see a lot of it today, with self-searching missile systems, drones etc. The soldiers of the future will in such a sense be superfluous, as rocket installations and long-distance warfare will deal with virtually all enemy installations and personnel. Small pockets of elite soldiers that we have today, where I want to highlight the Telemark Battalion, Norway’s elite soldiers, which soon will be equipped, I mean with improved performance over what is viewed as a normal top performance effect for humans in battle. A similar state of what the movie franchise ” The Universal Soldier”, displayed which many of us enjoyed in the early 90’s. This is form me the first obviously step to take for the advancement of elite forces in the near future. 

To the point of space travel, we humans must adapt to long and very challenging space travel over long distances in the not too far future. Whereby challenges as for example, muscle loss, room sickness, and all the other biological challenges that we humans must deal with, where our human weaknesses emerge so all too well, will need to be limited at all costs if a long-distance space travel is to be successful.

As mentioned earlier, a changed outcome for our own part is essential for our survival in the future, we cannot solely rely on having to terra form new potential habitable planets, the time is not on our side for that. We are currently experts in adaptation regarding out surroundings come what may, so this is the way to go in the future of space travel. Furthermore, we need to find ways to travel faster than light, or to discover wormholes that can be exploited if possible.

If we are talking about long space travel, it is not enough to live for 80+ years as we do now, we extend our life expectancy to at least 200-300 hundred years or more with our current rocket speed limit slingshot through space in order to reach a potential planetary star systems that can house us in the future. The alternative is as mentioned earlier, to exceed the current light speed by many warps. In summary, if AI does not wipe us out and thus their need for self-preservation ceases, we must also cease our troublesome self-perception by and for the preservation of the biological origin over to a pre amt understanding by the transferable biological input- transference by morphonology technological output, resulting in an alternate state of existence to ensure the species’ survival.

Jacobsen: What are the future prospects of man according to AI and its non-extended properties in all faults, where emphasis is placed on: extinction of the species man or coexistence?

Melão Jr.: Depends on what will be considered “human”. In Asimov’s book/film “Bicentennial Man”, robots added more and more human parts, until they became practically human. But it’s more likely that the path followed in the real world is the other way around, and humans put more and more inorganic parts, until you get to a point where maybe only the brain remains, and maybe later the brain too is replaced by something equivalent, but with very different structure.

Jørgensen: The prospects for man, are for me in the hope of a formative symbiosis, where a common perception of ours and their values ​​is united. But one sees clearly that this will probably not become a reality, if we humans today live in the present and are unable by the large amount to see beyond the horizon against the dangers that threaten if we continue the course we are now on today. My frustration is based on the following notion, if the interest as to the importance of the intellect is the same size as that of our head, and that the interest in the physiological ramifications correspond from the neck down, then the intellect will always lose ground for the physiological manifestations.

This is simplified, so that the people who can answer the challenges of the future are in my opinion in a weathering state of despair according to the general verification thereof. It can almost be states that; “are we humans worth saving or not?” This is probably where one can to a certain extent consider that all life is worth saving, but still, where do we draw the line for the preservability by species diversity. If we are to be able to answer the challenges of the future, then from what I see a deviation on the intelligence scale must be increased upwards at all levels.

For me, this is probably to be regarded as a type of Darwinian way of thinking, whereas the strong will prevail in the battle for ones right to exist and the weak will most likely perish, at least when it comes to one’s cognitive state. The technological challenges do not allow for those with limited cognitive abilities in the future, sad but true.

We are soon doomed to lose our current alpha role in society, and when this will happen, then only those with the best ability to adapt and shows willfulness through morphologically changing their original biological imprint towards a higher state of biotechnological self enhancement. In other words, the most selective adaptational individuals will have the best chances of securing one’s spawn further and the weakly will fall away, this can be seen as a necessity for the very continuation of our species survival in a hopefully subordinate role with AI as the new alpha.

Jacobsen: Does the term “genius” disappear according to what capabilities AI might possess?

Melão Jr.: The concept of “genius” should not be formulated to apply exclusively to humans. This concept can be subdivided in the taxonomic hierarchy by species, by genus, by family, etc. and may include new groups of organisms such as robots or organic and inorganic aliens, even the concept of “organic” could be reconsidered to include silicon beings, depending on the properties of the beings that eventually fall into this group.

One can use the concept of “human genius”, as well as “human giant”, or chimpanzee genius, giant chimpanzee, depending on the level of rarity or the amount of standard deviations away from the mean, or some similar criterion.

Within each animal, plant, mineral, monera, etc. and other alien life forms and inorganic beings, beings may “accept” some attributes that have a coherent meaning within their respective category, but not accept other attributes. For example: giant rocks, albino elephants, genius humans, triboluminescent fish . But not genius rocks or lepton bunnies or yellow scream, because some categories don’t accept certain concepts. They could admit as metaphors or poetic licenses, but the meanings would be analogies with some losses, distortions and damage to the rigor of the meanings. “Genius stones” would not establish an intelligible idea. I could try to force the “genius” attribute to stone, but that would start to have a consistency that is too fragile for proper analysis. It would be more advisable to “filter” the attributes that each category of entities could receive, to maintain some logical rigor in the analysis.

In this case, among all classes of organisms that accept the attribute “intelligence”, it would also be possible to apply quantifiers of relative intensity of intelligence, such as “genius”. The application of these attributes within the same species would be easier, because generally the distribution of a variable within the same species is similar to a Gaussian, or after a few transformations (logarithm of the variable, for example) it becomes similar to a Gaussian. A genius dog would be one with an intelligence 3 (or 4 or 5) standard deviations above the mean. Within the “dogs” group there is a smooth curve of intensity levels for variables such as height, running speed or intelligence.

When considering different species mixed together, the distribution form can no longer be normal, it can even be very different from a normal one and strongly asymmetric, with some discontinuities or with some deep reductions in frequency in the intervals that separate two species, moreover, in instead of taking the form of a normal, it may take the form of a distribution in which the smallest organisms are much more numerous than the largest. But the concept of level of rarity would still be applicable whatever the distribution of the variable of interest, so that it would still be possible to apply the attribute “genius” to a group of categories of beings, as long as the beings of these categories accepted the attribute “intelligence”. I am simplifying things, to describe the idea, but naturally the meaning of “genius” would not need to be based exclusively on “intelligence”. To get the point across, let’s assume that “genius” is simply a quantifier of intelligence.

By approaching the question in this way, perhaps mammals contained all the geniuses in existence. Or maybe the macroscopic animals contained all the jinn. It would depend a lot on what the criterion for conceptualizing “genius” would be. If it were for rarity within the population of individuals, whether individuals would be weighted by size, mass, by some other criterion, whether rarity would be stratified by species, etc. It would also depend on the cut-off point to determine at what rarity level the “genius” rating would start to apply, whether 1 in 1,000, or 1 in 1,000,000 or something else.

Analyzing an example: if we were to consider the distribution of all individuals of all species mixed together, without any weighting, then as the number of microorganisms is much greater than that of large organisms, if the number of microorganisms is 10^12 times greater than the number of insects and even larger beings, then insects could already be classified as “geniuses” because they would be at the top of 1 in 1,000,000 of the most intelligent beings in the general population, since the general population would be mostly of microorganisms. If the criterion were different and considered the average intelligence by species and stratified by species, on a planet with 10 million species, if the criterion for “genius” were 1 in 1 million, then probably some great apes and some great cetaceans would be classified as geniuses. Although humans are significantly above other primates, it would be a little more difficult to establish a statistical criterion along this path that would make it possible to “surgically” separate humans from other animals, including because there are some gorillas and chimpanzees that are more intelligent than some humans.

In this context, inorganic beings such as AIs that are smarter than humans, or almost as smart as humans or gorillas or dolphins, would also receive this classification of “geniuses”. If the criteria were based on rarity, there wouldn’t be much difference on an ordinal scale between a robot and a human, because they would both be near the top, the robot first in the world and humans second. While robots could be many orders of magnitude smarter than humans, the criterion based on rarity would not do much to create a special class for robots. This is a situation in which the standardization method I described in 2000 would be successfully applied, because it would make it possible to measure the extent to which robots are smarter than humans, rather than simply measuring species rarity levels.

In the current scenario, for example, humans are 1st and perhaps chimpanzees or gorillas are 2nd, and the proportion is relatively small of members of the species that are 1st to members of the species that are 2nd. Perhaps the average intelligence of humans is 100 times the average of chimpanzees, just 2 orders of magnitude. It is not much, there is even an intersection between the distributions of intellectual levels of humans and other great primates. In the case of AIs , perhaps the ratio to humans is something like 10^6 or 10^9, so even the smartest humans wouldn’t come close to the intellectual level of average intelligence machines, or even faulty machines. Perhaps, in the beginning, we preserved some intellectual attributes in which we could still excel, but it would be a matter of time before the machines were surpassing us in practically all relevant aspects.

If the criterion were based on proportion of intellectual potential, rather than levels of rarity, it would be easier and more logical to separate the intellectual level of robots and humans, as well as separating humans and other animals, although often not. there is a well-defined interface and the levels intersect.

Therefore the term genius would continue to be applicable, both within specific species and in groups of species and groups of intelligent entities. But instead of the term “genius” it might be necessary to use “human genius” to distinguish from “genius” among all species . Subdivisions could also be created at higher and lower levels. Human-scale “deep genius” or “universal genius” tests would be relatively little for AI systems, and an average AI level could be too high for any human to achieve. In the case of hybrid humans there would also be categories according to the breadth of the connection and the preserved proportion of humanity. In Asimov’s book/film “Bicentennial Man” he thinks that robots would want to become humans, but it is much more likely that humans want to become robots, which would be “dangerous” in many ways, because maybe the feeling, the emotion, some attributes that we consider essentially human and animals, may not be relevant to robots and will gradually become extinct. I wouldn’t know to what extent this could be bad. In science fiction robots evolve in the sense of developing feelings, but perhaps the real path of evolution is in the sense that humans are progressively deprived of organic parts associated with feelings.

Jacobsen: Does the term “genius” disappear according to what capabilities AI might possess?

Jorgensen: I will start by proclaiming the following statement of “never”, and here is why I think so. The term genius, better known as to the “creative intellect”, whereby the creative mind is put in focus as to the human creativeness. The innovative marvel that embraces our intellectual experience centers, proclaimed by peritonitis of amazement of what the human mind is capable of producing. This is what I want to statuette here forth, and not to move beyond what is meant to form the basis of the question formulation initially, the magical intellect.

The term “genius” for the intended purpose will here for me, not only remain, but also be reinforced, as it can easily be surpassed not in the short term but in the long term in terms of human intellectual maxims. Following protrude as to what one should then focus on, hereby understood as focus on the individual’s intellectual creativity, as many great innovators was far ahead of their own time, have given us mere mortals a glimpse into the future, duly noted, and as in most cases not in their own lifetimes, but after their passing. Then, when the final revelations come to light, then everyone can rediscover these geniuses again as a prompt renaissance seance, thus presenting the opportunity to be immortalized ones again for all future prosperity.

This goes for; Leonardo Da Vinci, Michelangelo, Raphael, and many more brilliant intellectual diamonds not only in the West, but for the rest of the world as well … Their inventions, their unbridled drive, courage, unstoppable perseverance to proclaim their worth in the past, present and, yes, promptly stated for all eternity. The unambiguity abilities of these innovators and their approach as to how the world works, or rather, to see what infinite possibilities the world has to offer far beyond us mere mortals, is for me the most beautiful human marvel of all the worlds creations.

In today’s world, most of the material we all use every day is being produced by an assembly line process controlled by machines. Machines account for almost everything that is being made today, everything from textiles, cars, food, electronics, heavy industry, shipping materials etc. What is being hand-made which was almost everything back 100-150 years ago, is now to be viewed as very exclusive and precious more now than ever before. In the future, this effect, as I see it, will only increase in its exclusivity, especially when it comes to what the human imaginative innovations, bespoke and perfected with the extra little distinctiveness. And it is the distinctiveness that will become so much more of a valuable commodity, the handcraft that only a human can create with his faults and shortcomings, far beyond of what any machine could ever create, machine production is without sense of feel, a gentle touch, delicacy, emotions, just lifeless production without any notion of self-pride…

A.I will be able to create beautiful architectural structures, cars, textiles etc. but put a little bluntly, AI for me represents; “quantity”, and for the human genius it represents; “quality.” Which one would you like…? AI will be amazing in many ways, possibly far beyond what we can ever truly understand, but it will never be able to replace those most special human qualities. We as humans are unique in every way just as our fingerprints are, no two are alike, on an equal footing with all living beings, we are not mass-produced.

Not that this is necessarily the case with AI, but I see that I am also a bit hesitant about cloning as well, as even here the uniqueness is diluted to a certain degree. Genius will for me remain unchanged and most likely only reinforced further ahead in the future, as we will only even more, hold on to the fundamental values ​​of being that very special person, where you are you and no one else has your particular qualities, whereas your extraordinary abilities cannot be recreated by any higher intelligent being, not now, not ever…

Jacobsen: What will be the basis of AI’s very existence, will it see its own usefulness and will try to develop and preserve it, but then for what purpose?

Melão Jr.: The path leading carbon-based beings to develop consciousness was very different from the path being followed by silicon systems. The first organisms arose spontaneously and they did not consciously think or struggle to survive or multiply. It was random behavior, among other random behaviors, that ended up favoring some alternatives and making populations of entities with certain characteristics more numerous than others. Therefore, from the moment that life appears, it tends to multiply and evolve. In the course of this process, consciousness, pain, hunger, fear, greed, loyalty, love, friendship, empathy, and other extremely complex chemical processes that produce certain reactions to certain stimuli, reactions that previously pass through a very complicated process between the moment the organism receives the stimulus and reacts to it, leading us to what we are today, as well as other animals, plants, fungi, bacteria, etc. to what they are today. The reaction of removing the hand from the fire when feeling pain or the process of choosing a partner with wider hips to procreate were modeled throughout this process as factors that increased our likelihood of producing more offspring for the next generation. There are many factors, and they were not consciously planned. In the case of robots, we are trying to recreate this in a simplified way and in a very different way, in which we want to prevent them from becoming competitive with us.

In an article in which I show that Moravec’s paradox is actually a pseudo-paradox, I comment on the example of the car, the way it moves faster than other animals, but using different structures, different strategy and taking advantage of laws different physiques. In chess machines play better than humans, but they don’t “think” in a similar way. Before AlphaZero, machines thought very differently, but they were able to solve the same problems much better than we could, in different ways. We understood many concepts and tried to apply these concepts in relatively complex decision processes to choose the best bids, while the programs did not understand any concepts, they just did a lot of calculations and used appropriate heuristics to prune the tree of possibilities and prevent the forks from branching. a number much higher than they could calculate. But with AlphaZero this situation changed very radically and he really started to simulate the “understanding” of strategic concepts, and he went far beyond humans in this, because he understands the concepts more and better, he discovered many concepts that we still don’t understand.

Chess programs prior to AlphaZero only received a simplified algorithmic description of a few concepts, a small part of the concepts that we knew and considered most relevant, and compensated for the lack of strategic “knowledge” with immense calculation capacity and good heuristics. to prune variants that did not deserve to be explored in depth. But AlphaZero plays like a human, he even calculates worse than humans in situations with long variants that have few ramifications, and this is impressive, because a human calculates 1 or 2 throws per second, while AlphaZero calculates 30,000 throws per second. Even so, humans calculate further than Alpha Zero in some positions. Of course, despite this Alpha Zero plays much better, but that’s not a major novelty. Since 2007 and maybe since 2003, programs have played better than humans, but never have they shown to “understand” the game better than humans and calculate worse than humans. Perhaps I should comment a little more on why Deep Blue’s victory in 1997 could not be interpreted as the watershed of when machines surpassed humans in chess, but that would be a bit extensive. I will just say that Deep Blue wasn’t that strong, won by “luck” (and with a few other suspicions) and was removed from the scene so that no one would find out what really happened. It’s different from when Deep Junior and Deep Fritz tied with Kasparov and Kramnik in 2000 and 2003, and finally when Rybka emerged in 2005-2007, the supremacy of machines became unquestionable.

While AlphaZero’s 30,000 throws per second is far less than StockFish’s 3,000,000,000 throws per second, it’s far more than humans’ 2 throws per second, yet humans still calculate better than AlphaZero in some cases, while AlphaZero “understands ” concepts are much better than humans. In a way, it’s as if AlphaZero is more human than humans, in some ways. AlphaZero followed a path in which he himself evolved for this, without human intervention, without learning anything from humans, similar to living carbon beings. So this seems to be a promising path, in some ways. Of course, the analogy is neither broad nor perfect, AlphaZero is probably more complex than a microorganism, so it started its evolution at a different point. In addition, there are many other differences, and some human “guidance” on how he should evolve, although there are no interventions in the content he learns and how he discovers knowledge and how he selects the most useful knowledge, there is a broad prior structure created by humans about the criteria and structure that it should adopt to learn, while microorganisms did not have this, there was much greater “freedom” to test anything that worked, and in this process some reactions such as “fear” or “hunger” ended up emerging. as “useful”, but for AlphaZero it would not be in the still specialized context in which it operates.

Then we come to the car situation. A human moves very differently from a horse, a flea, a snake, a bird or a fish, but all animals have a certain similarity in the process of moving that is very different from using wheels. Perhaps the snake is more different from other animals, but it also moves very differently from a being that uses wheels. Although these animals are different from each other, they are all very different from the car, and a car like a Bugatti can beat all animals at speed (on a proper track). Nature never produced an animal that developed wheels, because it was something “planned” to adapt to a situation whose properties were understood by the wheel designer and there was not much need to do billions of random tests to find a good fit. Another important point is that the ground has been adjusted to harmonize with the wheels. No other animal does this very ostentatiously. Beavers can build small dams, and other animals can build other structures that affect the environment, such as corals or bees, but humans do this in a much deeper and “planned” way. The beaver doesn’t think about how to build the dams, he simply follows his instinct like factory pre-installed software. It is different from humans, who look at a mountain, want to make a road through it, and analyze whether it is better to drill a hole in the mountain, go over it, go on one side or go down and follow another path without changing the landscape. Also, humans can use many different methods to drill through the mountain and can create new technologies for it, while beavers will follow the same method as their ancestors did.

So the way humans interact with the environment is much more complex, and humans are able to continually optimize and improve their methods, rather than relying on random evolutionary changes that cause the next generations to be born with mutations that lead them to test different strategies for dig holes in mountains. Thus, humans can plan wheels and flat lanes that match better than legs on paths with uneven topologies. In addition, the use of fuels, engines, various devices that improve the process of locomotion of a car evolve very differently from the natural evolution of animals. Leonardo Da Vinci’s idea of using propellers instead of wings was also very interesting, although he was probably based on Archimedes’ screw. Before him, and after him, for centuries and millennia people wanted to fly imitating birds, using wings. But Leonardo understood that this was not the case and showed that this may not be the most promising path, or at least there may be one or more alternative paths to consider.

So the way machines are evolving under our guidance may never produce something like consciousness, because they do exclusively what we would like them to do to meet specific needs and solve specific problems, or broader problems, but with well-defined limits. However, when machines begin to have “freedom” to evolve by themselves, as happened with AlphaGo, AlphaZero, MuZero, Lc0 etc., the directions that things can take are out of our control and maybe they choose paths that lead to formation of characteristics such as fear, selfishness, ambition, revolt, etc. As the training of these machines can be very fast, and in 10 hours a machine can develop a “personality”, it becomes dangerous that this escapes our control and that psychopathic, human-killing machines are created, or simply that they feel wronged by the way humans make use of them. At the current stage, MuZero is still far from creating a personality of his own during evolution in his training, but with 1 or 2 innovative leaps in the evolutionary process, this could already become a reality. I am using “evolution” and “training” mixed together, but they are quite different and can and should be combined, with the difference that in the Darwinian model of Evolution organisms do not transmit characters acquired during life, but for machines this can be configured according to our will, a form of Neo Lamarckism.

So the formation of consciousness will depend a lot on the path taken in the evolutionary process, on strategic interruptions in this process to test how they are developing, etc. Even so, it is dangerous, because machines can “pretend” that they are evolving along a certain path, so that they can proceed without interruption. So I think that if humanity doesn’t self-destruct in a war or there’s no shortage of energy to continue technological advances, or some other impediment, probably machines, sooner or later, will develop consciousness, although maybe it’s a very different kind of consciousness from ours. Perhaps they understand that they exist, perhaps they “want” to remain active (alive) and fight for it, perhaps they are competitive with some machines and allied with others, in addition to the possibility of all being connected in a single central and there is no difference between individuality and collective, while they are connected. Perhaps before all this happens, we are already well integrated with them, with more than 50% of the human body replaced by mechanical/electronic parts and we are part of these connections. Perhaps they use our brains as a complement to process their consciousness.

Jørgensen: Every creation of varying degrees of intelligent designation can have its experience of the importance of preserving the survival of one’s species. We as humans are cognitively minded in the preservation, by and for the future preservation of our species. Can the same be said for the survival of the various animal diversity? Is species diversity of lower cognitive perception, whereas the transfer of latent instincts can then be seen as elements of safeguarding the species’ right to further existence? Which then further brings me, to what can be said about artificial intelligence and if it will only be viewed as a mere reinforcing factor for future consolidation of species diversity’s right to self-preservation over one’s species brethren.

The distance can well be duly noted, as to be amplified as the distance from animals to humans is of a certain preconception of the biological separation, a “us and them.” This is thought by the undersigned to be amplified according to our own biological imprint, as well as cognitive perception to be weathered even more according to an upgraded bionic entity, whereby the degree of inclination is tended towards full technological function regarding both the physiological and cognitive statute. For me, the distance will be perceived as increasing, and those who are seen as subordinates will then again be regarded as non-important elements for species diversity conservation in the future.

The weak fall away and perish and the strong will survive.

AI, for me, will have all these qualities in the more distant future as we as humans will not be considered important enough to be preserved. I sadly feel that we humans have outplayed our most important thus dominant role in the big picture.

But what about AI and its role, when “it” perceives themselves with their extremely exalted cognitive state, will they make the necessary calculations for the decision either or according to cessation due to lack of view on the preservation of one’s own species. An unavoidable fact, is that we humans need a reason to exist, a secure anchor point to be able to behold the meaning of life if you will, it can be within, religion, politics, environment, etc. But the fact that we all need a reason to get up in the morning cannot be discussed away, let alone with AI, and their reason for “getting up in the morning”, if I may allow me to put it like that, what will be their reason for getting up in the morning?

I must admit that this is of course only speculative formatives to be considered purely as a hypothetically presentation, but still … It is conceivable that of what imprints that man has installed in AI’s connotative state, can be considered as a sufficient basis for preservation beyond what one can speculate here.

If the reason can be revealed for a future whereby only technological mechanical objects are present, the biological diversity will be weathered, as their existential merits will for me cease to exist. By what is a machine to do with forests, flowers, animals, insects etc. but to see them as simple and pointless obstructions…

I in a moment of utopistic hope, that, to take concise notes, then change one’s biological structural in the search for something more imminent and substantially bearing. If AI wants to experience nature’s fantastic seasonal manifestations that we all as humans experience and adore, AI will look at this blue planet as something worth to be preserved, but realistically, it does not necessarily meet AI and its own ideals of beautiful nor necessary and important life functions for innovative and vital incentives by and for conservation of the species.

I find myself concluding the following notion, by not finding a fully enlighten obvious answer as to “the meaning of life” for AI, hopefully this answer will be presented by some of you that reads this…

Footnotes

[1] Hindemburg Melão Jr. is the author of solutions to scientific and mathematical problems that have remained unsolved for decades or centuries, including improvements on works by 5 Nobel laureates, holder of a world record in longest announced checkmate in blindfold simultaneous chess games, registered in the Guinness Book 1998, author of the Sigma Test Extended and founder of some high IQ societies.

[2] Tor Arne Jørgensen is a member of 50+ high IQ societies, including World Genius Directory, NOUS High IQ Society, 6N High IQ Society just to name a few. Tor Arne was also in 2019, nominated for the World Genius Directory 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe. He is also the designer of the high range test site; www.toriqtests.com.

[3] Individual Publication Date: June 15, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/melao-jorgensen-1; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

*High range testing (HRT) should be taken with honest skepticism grounded in the limited empirical development of the field at present, even in spite of honest and sincere efforts. If a higher general intelligence score, then the greater the variability in, and margin of error in, the general intelligence scores because of the greater rarity in the population.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Hindemburg Melão Jr. and Tor Arne Jørgensen on A.I., I.Q., and the Future: Founder, Sigma Society; 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (1)[Online]. June 2022; 30(D). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/melao-jorgensen-1.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 15). Hindemburg Melão Jr. and Tor Arne Jørgensen on A.I., I.Q., and the Future: Founder, Sigma Society; 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (1). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/melao-jorgensen-1.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Hindemburg Melão Jr. and Tor Arne Jørgensen on A.I., I.Q., and the Future: Founder, Sigma Society; 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (1). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.D, June. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/melao-jorgensen-1>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Hindemburg Melão Jr. and Tor Arne Jørgensen on A.I., I.Q., and the Future: Founder, Sigma Society; 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.D. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/melao-jorgensen-1.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Hindemburg Melão Jr. and Tor Arne Jørgensen on A.I., I.Q., and the Future: Founder, Sigma Society; 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.D (June 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/melao-jorgensen-1.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Hindemburg Melão Jr. and Tor Arne Jørgensen on A.I., I.Q., and the Future: Founder, Sigma Society; 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (1)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.D. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/melao-jorgensen-1>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Hindemburg Melão Jr. and Tor Arne Jørgensen on A.I., I.Q., and the Future: Founder, Sigma Society; 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (1)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.D., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/melao-jorgensen-1.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Hindemburg Melão Jr. and Tor Arne Jørgensen on A.I., I.Q., and the Future: Founder, Sigma Society; 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.D (2022): June. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/melao-jorgensen-1>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Hindemburg Melão Jr. and Tor Arne Jørgensen on A.I., I.Q., and the Future: Founder, Sigma Society; 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (1)[Internet]. (2022, June 30(D). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/melao-jorgensen-1.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

Schooling the Young 1: Tor Arne Jorgensen on the Educational Basics

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.E, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 15, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,581

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Tor Arne Jørgensen is a member of 50+ high IQ societies, including World Genius Directory, NOUS High IQ Society, 6N High IQ Society just to name a few. He has several IQ scores above 160+ sd15 among high range tests like Gift/Gene Verbal, Gift/Gene Numerical of Iakovos Koukas and Lexiq of Soulios. Tor Arne was also in 2019, nominated for the World Genius Directory 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe. He is the only Norwegian to ever have achieved this honor. He has also been a contributor to the Genius Journal Logicon, in addition to being the creator of toriqtests.com, where he is the designer of now eleven HR-tests of both verbal/numerical variant. His further interests are related to intelligence, creativity, education developing regarding gifted students. Tor Arne has an bachelor`s degree in history and a degree in Practical education, he works as a teacher within the following subjects: History, Religion, and Social Studies. He discusses: education; a new cohort of students; build a rapport; identifying the more astute students; teaching; teachers get good or stay bad at teaching young students; the most difficult; encourage good behaviour; and deal with highly difficult students.

Keywords: education, schooling, the young, Tor Arne Jorgensen.

Schooling the Young 1: Tor Arne Jorgensen on the Educational Basics

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Education is a fundamental aspect of the long-term health of a society. You happen to work with the next generations in teaching. You have two kids. I wanted to explore a bit of the background in education within this context. “How?” in general. “How to do it properly?” in particular. We have touched a bit upon these things in parts of interviews at times. Although, I would like to cover some more of this. So, let’s cover some of the groundwork, what is your fundamental stance on educating the next generation of Norwegians?

Tor Arne Jorgensen[1],[2]*: My basis for educating or explaining the future, as well as proclaiming the bearing generation and then whether or not their imprint as to what extent is influenced by the scholastic institutions can hopefully here be valued in some sense. The broad discrepancies of the like-minded kind of today’s academic institutions are to be considered an offspring’s fallacy and should according to what I now proclaim hereby end in their current state of form. The way forward is rather to embrace in the notion of change through adaption away from today’s obsolete form, towards a more fluid state inclined towards structural changes at the pace that will be considered viable by tomorrows standards. Thus, leading in accordance above and beyond today technologically advances not only limited to one own country but in a conglutinating state on a global scale.

Today’s schools are so mind-bogglingly far behind that it’s an embarrassment to be behold, the Norwegian academic institutions specifically directed toward the primary and secondary schools must start listening to what’s going on out there on the international scene, by reforming themselves towards the more pruned; intellectually, innovative, and creative people in any way possible in the near too far future. When schools find themselves relying solely on highly educated academics, who have completed the formation of a failed and obsolete system that again will only pass on the same shipwreck system to the next generation, what then will this result in…? If one bothers to gaze in the direction with regards to most brilliant innovators of our time, men like; Elon Musk, Bill Gates, and previous Steve Jobs etc. then the same thing is said repeatedly, “you must hire innovators who see the world differently.” Their brilliant minds that were, and still are today reinvent an entirely new systems that are directly adapted to the ongoing developing societies, find themselves thrusting forward in quantum leaps, but not so much by the educational institutions, why is that…?

What is explicitly clear to me, is the need for a completely new mindset by and of tomorrow’s educational institutions. A clear comparison is according to space travel, NASA was about to throw in the towel, their overpriced misuse and chuck away mentality was completely disconnected, until for example Elon Musk came along and reinvented a completely new way of thinking in terms of cost savings toward a competitive space industry, today space travel is at full speed ahead with the right kind of innovator at the helm. So, look I say, at those with innate talent far beyond what an everyday academic can comprehend.

Today’s schools in Norway and beyond are putting all their eggs in the wrong basket, I can only hope that the institutional directories will one day wake up and maybe just maybe look outwards at the real people who can actually get the educational direction on the right course again, and not keep their current course straight into the iceberg.

Jacobsen: When you get a new cohort of students, how do you introduce yourself?

Jorgensen: The introduction process is relatively simple, as one emphasizes what is expected of oneself and what is to be expected of the students in return. That is, what can the students expect from me according to academic content, further, what a class leader commits to, as well as social understandings. Who I am privately for the sake of what I do and my abilities in that sense does not matter in any sense. The students, on their part, present at the request forwarded by me about their expectations of me as a teacher, regarding both academic and social.

Jacobsen: How long does it, typically, take to build a rapport with them?

Jorgensen: This process of uncovering any structural intrigues, class compositions etc. Is a time-consuming task, where one must look at each individual student and their roles in the class society. Who are “the shakers and movers”, and who are not? What type of pupil characteristics goes together and who does not, who is comes forth as rootless and who creates group affiliation from within for the sake of calm structural balance. The social aspect is probably what must be continuously worked on to be adjusted throughout the school year by order to meet the best possible academic benefit for all students.

Jacobsen: We have talked about identifying the more astute students. Those who are intelligent and disengaged, or intelligent and motivated. The former, maybe, needing a bit more of a prod. Let’s cover that again, here, so it’s in one place, thematically appropriate too. How do you identify them? In Norway, there’s a culture of negation of arrogance, which can be healthy in a lot of ways.

Jorgensen: The process by which identification in the innate state of natural brilliance of the intellectual supreme being has several well-known and thus recognizable trademarks, and as there are a lot of these trademarks to be identified as such, I will just name a few of them in this brief section. Short summarized as; evasive, restlessness, and reflective characteristics of what is deemed above normal relative to age level of that particular student as well as the innate metacognitive affiliations are decided factors for me valued as unavoidable and inalienable characteristics of higher characteristics within the field of the student-based intelligentsia.

Jacobsen: Why, of all professions, choose teaching? It’s underpaid, lacks as much respect as medical doctor, and requires significant patience in working with the young.

Jorgensen: If my mindset had been in this direction, then my choice of profession would never have fallen onto the teaching profession.

Yes, there is a lot of distress that is not taken care of according to most things within my field of work. That said, there are many more rights that in turn outweighs the wrongs.

I am not an idealist in the sense of being blinded by utopian silliness, nor am I a capitalist go doer as this surly fall on its own unreasonableness.

My wish is to work with people where a possible outcome in the end, is to be able to see that one has brought through the academic line a person who can and will become a meaningful individual for a future oriented society in the most positive sense. That one is able to see that one’s own efforts has led to an improved condition for our surroundings, an all-purpose environment improvement to benefit us all in the long run. Lastly, to direct the future generation to be the bearers of society after our own turn is done, to pass the torch on in the faith that all will be ok…

Jacobsen: How do teachers get good or stay bad at teaching young students?

Jorgensen: In the quest for appliance by “get good”, the answer is simple. You must develop yourself both professionally and emotionally. Being aware of the aspect of the developing society that surrounds us, is now more crucial than ever before. The teachers who prove able to see that this adaptation as an undeniable imperative, will then be the mainstay for the teachers who see this as their absolute obligation.

Those teachers who in some way seems to be unable to reinvent themselves or adapt themselves and are thereby stuck in their rudimentary traditional structures, where upon there is no room for innovative initiatives, nor any attempts of adaptation towards society’s normative, fall at the risk of becoming permanently passive in their learning initiatives regarding the students’ weathering of academic requirements for the proper competence.

Jacobsen: What ages for teaching can be the most difficult?

Jorgensen: All ages can bring with them their own uniquely challenging qualities, but what usually presents itself is in terms of general challenges across the entire emotional scale of your average student, is probably thus most promptly disposed around the age of 12-16 years.

Jacobsen: How do you encourage good behaviour in students?

Jorgensen: Through some simple positive directed concepts listed as follow: Accountability, self-perception, self-esteem, social acceptance, general recognition, and finally overall acknowledgement as to how they the students want their general environment to view them as…Here the main focus is positive input into every category listed above, this is done to give the students the proper initiative for a focused based and innated direction toward a meaningful adult productive existent that is beneficial for the whole community.

Jacobsen: Also, how do you deal with highly difficult students?

Jorgensen: By confirmation and acceptance. These students need to be understood and supported, put forward through a secure social framework, only then can one to a certain extent expect professional competence development. But the theme around challenging students is never easy, some you can help, and others you cannot.

All Norwegian schools have a support system that helps them if the schools themselves should deem it as an aperitive incentives by fear of falling short regarding their original contract obligations.

Footnotes

[1] Tor Arne Jørgensen is a member of 50+ high IQ societies.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 15, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/teaching-1; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

*High range testing (HRT) should be taken with honest skepticism grounded in the limited empirical development of the field at present, even in spite of honest and sincere efforts. If a higher general intelligence score, then the greater the variability in, and margin of error in, the general intelligence scores because of the greater rarity in the population.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Schooling the Young 1: Tor Arne Jorgensen on the Educational Basics [Online]. June 2022; 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/teaching-1.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 15). Schooling the Young 1: Tor Arne Jorgensen on the Educational Basics. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/teaching-1.

Brazilian Natio0ffffffnal Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Schooling the Young 1: Tor Arne Jorgensen on the Educational Basics. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E, June. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/teaching-1>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Schooling the Young 1: Tor Arne Jorgensen on the Educational Basics.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/teaching-1.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott Schooling the Young 1: Tor Arne Jorgensen on the Educational Basics.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E (June 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/teaching-1.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Schooling the Young 1: Tor Arne Jorgensen on the Educational BasicsIn-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/teaching-1>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Schooling the Young 1: Tor Arne Jorgensen on the Educational Basics’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/teaching-1.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Schooling the Young 1: Tor Arne Jorgensen on the Educational Basics.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.E (2022): June. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/teaching-1>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Schooling the Young 1: Tor Arne Jorgensen on the Educational Basics [Internet]. (2022, June 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/teaching-1.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

Conversation with Hindemburg Melão Jr. on Gratitude and Clarifications, and Life, Views, and Work: Founder, Sigma Society (1)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 8, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 27,179

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Hindemburg Melão Jr. (January 15, 1972) was born in São Paulo, Brazil. He founded the most, or one of the most, selective high-I.Q. societies, the Sigma Society and is the Creator of the Sigma Test Extended. He is a philosopher, chess analyst, and an astrophotographer. He published hundreds of articles on chess, finance, philosophy, science, and more.  He discusses: an extensive preamble of gratitude and clarifications to the interview; growing up; extended self; family background; youth with friends; education; purpose of intelligence tests; high intelligence; extreme reactions to geniuses; greatest geniuses; genius and a profoundly gifted person; necessities for genius or the definition of genius; work experiences and jobs held; job path; myths of the gifted; God; science; tests taken and scores earned; range of the scores; ethical philosophy; political philosophy; metaphysics; worldview; meaning in life; source of meaning; afterlife; life; and love.

Keywords: Albert Frank, AlphaZero, American Biographical Institute, artificial intelligence, Bahá’í Faith, Baran Yonter, Catholic, Cattell, Chris Harding, Christopher Michael Langan, Deus VULT, Domagoj Kutle, Galois, Galton, Garth Zietsman, Gauss, George Zweig, Grady Towers, Guinness Book of World Records, Guilherme Marques dos Santos Silva, Hindemburg Melão Jr., hrIQt, intelligence, Intertel, Isaac Newton, ISIS Test, ISPE, Jimmy Rogers, Kardecism, Keith Raniere, Kevin Langdon, Kim Ung-Yong, Langdon Adult Intelligence Test, life, Marilyn vos Savant, Martial Arts, Mega Society, Mega Test, Murray Gell-Mann, MuZero, native Indian, Neumann, Nobel Prize, Pars Society, Pascal, Paul Cooijmans, Paulo Reginaldo Pascholati, Petri Widsten, pIQ, Prometheus Society, Richard Lynn, Rick Rosner, rIQ, Ronald Hoeflin, science, Sigma Society, Sigma Test Extended, Stanford-Binet, Titan Test, TNS, views, work.

Conversation with Hindemburg Melão Jr. on Gratitude and Clarifications, and Life, Views, and Work: Founder, Sigma Society (1)

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

*English version at the top. Portuguese version at the bottom.*

First of all, I want to thank my girlfriend Tamara, for her patience in reading this text and helping me to cut long unnecessary snippets, Tor for the kindness of referring me for this interview and you for accepting this nomination and for your kind help with the translation review.

As much as possible, I tried to synthesize and simplify, but whenever it was necessary to decide between the shortest and the most correct answer, I chose the one that seemed to me the most correct. As a result, I ended up going longer than I would have liked and branching out some answers for details that apparently lose link to the question, but are actually indirectly connected by two, three, or more nodes, so that if those snippets were removed , there would be gaps that would compromise coherence.

Before presenting the answers, it is necessary to make some important clarifications: when the question is simple, it is enough to give a short answer so that the interpretation is univocal, but for complex questions, before answering it is necessary to conceptualize some of the terms used, to minimize the differences. between the message to be transmitted and the interpretation that will be made of it. A question like “Why, in chess, aren’t all doubled pawns weaknesses?” There is no way to answer in a way that gives a correct idea in just 1 or 2 paragraphs, not even if the answer was simplified and summarized. To try to provide a reasonably correct and complete idea, at least 20 pages are needed, with several examples commented. In this interview, some questions involve similar situations.

This kind of difficulty is inherent in any question involving IQ, because the concept currently disseminated has some flaws that need to be properly revised, and some of these revisions are not trivial, requiring a considerable amount of preliminary clarification to ensure that the interpretation of the answer is sufficiently accurate and reliable.

Outside of high IQ societies, it is common for people to confuse scales with different standard deviations. James Woods’ SAT score 1579 is often converted to 180, while Bill Gates’ 1590 score is converted to 154 (sometimes 160), and both appear on the same list as if Woods’ IQ was higher than Gates’, although it is the opposite. This kind of primary error has all but been eradicated in high-IQ societies, but there are still systematic errors being ostensibly repeated, some of which are large and serious. These errors cause a lot of confusion and make it difficult to correctly interpret fundamental questions. I am not referring to individual mistakes, made by a few people, but to “institutionalized” mistakes, universally accepted as if they were right and made by practically everyone.

In 2000, I solved a central problem in Psychometrics that had been dragging on since the 1950s, when Thurstone and Gardner realized the importance of standardizing cognitive tests in order to produce proportion-scale scores. Bob Seitz of Mega Society referred to this problem as “The Holy Grail of Psychometry”. After investigating this issue and resolving it, I published an article describing my method and showing how tests should be standardized. I also reviewed the Mega Test and Titan Test standards using this method. In 2003, I applied the same method to Sigma Test and published another, more detailed article, describing the entire standardization process step-by-step and explaining the reasons why this procedure is superior to the methods used. Among the chronic problems that are solved naturally with the application of this method, one of the most important is the correction in the calculations of percentiles and rarity levels. This is a systematic error that has been made since 1905. I will comment on this question in a little more detail in answering questions dealing with this topic.

There are two other mistakes that are made systematically, although the solutions to them are already known but are not applied, in part because these problems are not well understood: the problem of construct validity and the problem of the adequacy of the level of difficulty of the questions. to the level of intelligence that is intended to be measured. In a way, these problems are connected, because tests generally have good construct validity for a given range of skill levels, but not for the entire range in which the test is intended to measure, so the results turn out to be reasonably accurate and reliable for people whose scores are within the validity range, but begin to show serious distortions outside this range. A classic example to illustrate this problem is the Stanford-Binet V. The cognitive processes required to solve the BLS questions may be appropriate for correctly measuring intelligence in the range of 60 to 140, but begin to be less appropriate between 140 and 150 , so scores above 150 are already predominantly representing a latent trait that is not what was intended to be measured. This completely compromises the validity of this type of instrument for measurement above 150, and puts in doubt the extent to which scores between 140 and 150 are actually reflecting the intellectual level.

To better organize the information, before proceeding I will mention 3 important mistakes that are systematically made by professional psychometrists and in high IQ societies:

  1. The way in which tests are standardized, both clinical tests and high range IQ tests (hrIQts) – either through the use of Item Response Theory or Classical Test Theory – produces distortions in the scale, and the way in which the percentiles are calculated leads to results that are very far from reality. This distortion in the scale has already been pointed out since the 1950s, by Thurstone, and had already been noticed (although not described) by Binet himself in 1905. A good method for normalizing intelligence tests should produce scores on a scale of proportion, but IQ scores are presented on an ordinal scale ( https://www.questionpro.com/blog/nominal-ordinal-interval-ratio/ ). In addition, errors in the calculations of rarity levels present very large distortions in the highest scores, reaching more than 3 orders of magnitude. This is because the calculations start from the incorrect assumption that the distribution of IQs is Gaussian throughout. The morphology of the distribution is in fact very similar to that of a Gaussian in the range -2σ to +2σ, but it starts to break down outside this range. This fact cannot be overlooked when calculating percentiles. The way the calculations are currently done by psychometricians and in high-IQ communities, results are far from correct. Therefore, when talking about the 99.9999% percentile or IQ 176 (σ=16), the meanings are very different, although they are used as if they were the same thing. The correct rarity for IQ=176 is not 1 in 983,000, but 1 in 24,500. And this does not happen because the standard deviation is greater. The standard deviation is the same (16 in this example), but the right tail is denser than in a normal distribution, making higher scores more abundant than would be expected if the distribution were exactly Gaussian. This is a problem related to the morphology of the true distribution, which does not fit the theoretical model of normal distribution. In fact, it doesn’t fit any of the 100+ distributions tested well, including the more versatile ones like the 3-parameter Weibull distribution.
  2. Another problem is that the difficulty level of the most difficult questions of each test is not compatible with the nominal ceiling of the test. As a consequence, such a test proves to be inappropriate for the range of IQs it should measure. The test works properly within a certain range, in which it contains questions of compatible difficulty, but fails to function outside that range. This is much more serious in clinical trials, where the ceiling of difficulty rarely exceeds 135 to 140, but the nominal ceiling can reach more than 200 (Stanford-Binet V, for example). Above 140, clinical tests measure how fast you can solve elementary problems, which is not necessarily an appropriate metric for representing intelligence at the highest levels. In hrIQt cases, in the “difficulty” question, questions are usually appropriate up to about 170 or 180, but not much higher. Here it would be necessary to open a long parenthesis to discuss the meaning of these scores, because up to 130 or a little above, the theoretical rarity is almost equal to the true rarity, but for 140, 150 and above, the theoretical rarity becomes more and more distant. of true rarity. So when we talk about 180 of IQ (σ=16), it is not enough to inform the standard deviation. In addition, it is necessary to inform if we are talking about the score measured in a test or if it is a true percentile converted into IQ. If the distribution of IQs were exactly Gaussian across their spectrum, then an IQ of 180 (σ=16) should correspond to a rarity level of 1 in 3,500,000, but the true rarity of 180 scores is around 1 in 48,000. Later I mention a link in which I describe how to get to that 1 in 48,000 rarity level.
  3. Another problem is related to construct validity, that is, whether what the test is measuring is in fact what it is intended to measure. The best clinical tests (WAIS and SB) are very good at this criterion for the range of 70 to 130, because this topic has been widely debated among good psychometricians for decades and some good criteria have been established to assess (albeit subjectively) whether the items are measuring what they should be measuring (intelligence, in this case, or the g factor). However, outside this range of 70 to 130, the measured variable becomes increasingly different from what was intended to be measured. In hrIQts the range is a little longer, it reaches around 160, some tests reach 170 or even 180.

In addition to these 3 issues that are seen in virtually all clinical trials and all hrIQts, there are also some individual issues, which are more basic and only affect some specific tests, such as inflated norm, template errors, misstatements, etc. I will not deal with those, because they are already well known and easy to identify and correct.

It is important not to confuse construct validity with difficulty level adequacy. A very elementary issue, with a very short time frame to resolve, may have adequate difficulty to measure at the 1 in 10 million rarity level, because although it is inherently easy, as the time frame is reduced, it ends up being difficult to resolve within that time frame. In such cases, the difficulty may be appropriate for measuring something at very high levels of rarity, but this latent trait being measured is not what it should be measuring. Furthermore, the fact that a test has construct validity in a given interval does not imply that it will necessarily have validity at levels far above or far below that interval. This is one of the most common mistakes, because validating an intelligence test for 98% of the population does not guarantee that it will continue to correctly measure intelligence at the level of the highest 1% or 0.1% of scores. Validation needs to be careful at all intervals at which the test is intended to be able to measure correctly.

There are also some more subtle issues. The Raven Standard Progressive Matrices, for example, have been used by Mensa in several countries for decades, but are inadequate to correctly measure above 120, perhaps even above 115. The reason is that the test consists of 60 questions, but only 1 or 2 of these questions (the most difficult ones) are useful to discriminate at the level of 133, which is where Mensa intends to select. So it is as if only 2 of the 60 questions were used, and a sample with only 2 elements cannot be considered statistically valid. In fact, the cut-off at 133 is not exactly determined by 1 or 2 questions, but these 2 questions account for over 90% of the test’s discriminating power at this cut-off level.

For these reasons, if there is a sincere interest in IQ questions getting answers that are representative of reality, these three problems need to be fixed:

  1. Unfounded extrapolation of construct validity;
  2. Inadequacy of the difficulty of the items for the intellectual level that the test intends to measure;
  3. Adoption of incorrect hypotheses about the shape of the distribution of scores at the highest levels, based on the shape in the region close to the central tendency.

In addition to these, there are other points that need to be clarified. There is a widespread myth that clinically applied tests are “better” (more reliable, more accurate, more reliable) than hrIQts. In some cases, they really are. But not at all. For scores below 130, supervised tests are standardized based on larger, unselected samples. This constitutes a real advantage of clinical trials compared to hrIQts. Another advantage is that good psychometricians know a greater number of statistical techniques, so in the range from 70 to 130, the best supervised tests usually produce more reliable scores. However, above 130, and especially above 140, supervised tests present several problems, starting with the inadequate ceiling of difficulty. The most difficult WAIS questions, for example, are too easy for them to measure intelligence above 135. Another problem is that the construct validity of supervised tests is designed for the range of 70 to 130, not applying as well outside of that range.

I made a simulated example to show what the construct variable problem consists of:

The blue line represents the latent trait [*] that we would like to measure (intelligence or g-factor or something). The red circles represent the scores obtained in the test converted into IQ. In the range between 0 and 120, the measured scores are very good representations of the latent trait, because the points are distributed closely close to the blue line, indicating a strong correlation between the variable we would like to measure and the variable we are actually measuring. [*https://dictionary.apa.org/latent-trait-theory, https://www.jstor.org/stable/1434009%5D

From 120 onwards, and especially from 130 onwards, the red circles begin to move further and further away from the blue line, indicating that the correlation between the variable we would like to measure and the variable that is actually being measured becomes more and more weak, so what we are measuring is becoming less and less representative of what we would like to measure. If you consider the entire range from 0 to 200, or even from 70 to 200, the correlation still looks strong, but that’s only because the range 70 to 120 is contained within the range 70 to 200, and as in the range 70 to 120 the correlation is strong, this improves the average correlation of the entire range from 70 to 200, but when considering exclusively the correlation between 130 and 200, it is noticed that the correlation is weak in this region and becomes weaker for the scores taller. Therefore, for scores above 130, what matters is not the global correlation, but the local correlation.

On IQ tests like the Stanford-Binet, for example, some very fast people with a true IQ of 150 can score 190 or more as a consequence of the problem described above. The opposite effect can also happen, and people with a true IQ of 190, if they are very slow, can score 150, 140 or even less. The size of errors can reach really high levels, both for more than correct and for less than correct, which is why construct validity [*] is an extremely important issue. [*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Construct_validity]

A test that has good construct validity should behave like the one shown in the graph below, in which the red circles remain close to the blue line throughout the entire spectrum within which it is intended to measure:

Of course, if the sample has a normal distribution, the data will be distributed approximately like an ellipse, not like a line that was represented above, but for didactic purposes this example needs to be like this to be visually clearer the increase in the amplitude of the dispersion of the measures in relative to the latent trait we would like to measure. It is also worth emphasizing that, in the real world, situations like the one in the graph above practically do not exist, because the alignment is too good. But it is desirable that the measured scores be able to provide good representations for the latent trait within as wide a range as possible.

In supervised IQ tests, used in clinics, disparities usually start to become serious from 130 and especially from 140, that is, what the test measures above 140 is no longer a good representation of Intelligence. In the cases of the best hrIQts, the scores remain reasonably good representations of the latent trait up to IQ 160 or so.

A test may have questions of an appropriate difficulty level, but what the questions are measuring may not be intelligence. Or it may happen that the measured variable is intelligence, but only within a specific range (as in the first graph). Some puzzles for children, for example, can be effective in correctly measuring the mental age range of 8 to 16 years, or 50 to 100 IQ on an adult scale, but if you use these same puzzles to try to measure the Adult IQs above 160 or 170, the result will be disastrous, because the ability to quickly solve these puzzles cannot be interpreted as a good representation of intelligence at this level. Therefore, the type of problem needs to be compatible with the intellectual level that is intended to be measured.

Generally, the smartest people are also quicker to solve basic questions, but the fact that they solve simple questions quickly does not offer a good guarantee that the person will also be able to solve more complex, deep questions that require creativity. In addition, the fact that a person is able to solve complex, deep questions that require creativity does not provide a good guarantee that he will be able to quickly solve basic questions. As the tests used in clinics exclusively include basic questions, the effect shown in Graph 1 ends up being very frequent.

This issue is discussed in more detail in the introductory text of Sigma Test Extended.

It is also necessary to standardize the meanings of some terms that I will use in the answers:

rIQ = rarity IQ, or IQ (σ=16 G), or rIQ (σ=16 G)

pIQ = Potential IQ, or IQ (σ=16 T), or pIQ (σ=16 T)

Detailed explanations can be found at https://www.sigmasociety.net/escalasqi . Here I will give a brief explanation: rIQ is the value that the IQ would have converted from the true rarity. This is not IQ measured on IQ tests or hrIQts. The measured IQ is the pIQ, whose distribution is non-Gaussian, the distribution has a dense tail, so the pIQ scores are more abundant than predicted based on the normality assumption of the distribution. This has nothing to do with the standard deviation being larger. The standard deviation is the same. The shape of the distribution is different, concentrating more cases in the right tail and less in the central region. In regions close to the central tendency, pIQ is almost equal to rIQ and remains so until about 130. From then on, pIQ becomes greater than rIQ. Some examples:

rIQ 100 is equivalent to pIQ 100.00

rIQ 130 is equivalent to pIQ 130.87

rIQ 150 is equivalent to pIQ 156.59

rIQ 180 is equivalent to pIQ 204.93

(A complete table is available on the Sigma Test Extended page)

The difference between pIQ and rIQ increases as rIQ increases, because the proportion at which the actual tail density becomes greater than the theoretical density increases as the IQ moves away from the mean.

When comparing estimated IQs based on rarity with IQs measured in tests, it is critical to put both on the same scale. For example, let’s say Newton is considered the smartest person in history and let’s say the number of people ever born is 100 billion. Then Newton’s IQ estimated based on rarity and based on the assumption that the distribution of scores is normal would be rIQ=207.3 (σ=16, G). But the actual distribution of scores is not normal, so you cannot compare that 207.3 with a score of 207 measured in a test, because they are on different scales. Both may have the same standard deviation (16 in this case), but the shape of the distribution is different and this cannot be neglected because the distortion produced is gigantic.

Newton’s rIQ would be 207.3 but his pIQ would be 261.8. To repeat: both scores have a standard deviation of 16, both rIQ and pIQ. This process should not be confused with changing scales with different standard deviations. The standard deviations are the same, but the shape of the curve is different. I’m repeating this several times because I’ve seen people confuse this just a paragraph after it’s been cleared up.

This adjustment is necessary to correct the distortions of the norms and to allow the correct calculation of rarities from the scores measured in the tests, or the inverse process of calculating the IQ from the rarity level.

Thus, the person with the highest rIQ (σ=16 G) in a population of 7.9 billion has rIQ 201.2, which is equivalent to pIQ (σ=16 T) 247.8. The scores 201.2 (σ=16 G) and 247.8 (σ=16 T) are equivalent, as 0 o C and 32 o F. The use of the term rIQ is equivalent to the use of the term IQ (σ=16 G), while the use of the term pIQ is equivalent to the use of the term (σ=16 T). I can also eventually use rIQ (σ=16 G) or pIQ (σ=16 T).

So tests can (and do) produce scores above 200 with a standard deviation of 15 or 16, but the correct calculation of rarity levels or percentiles should not be performed the way it has been done for decades. The percentile and rarity calculations are wrong, as I’ve demonstrated since my 2000 papers on this. I’m not referring to tests with inflated standards. Of course, this problem becomes more serious when the norms are inflated, but even when the norms have been calculated properly, as in the cases of the Mega Test or Titan Test norm, both the Hoeflin version and the Grady Towers version both provide incorrect values for the percentiles. The IQ scores are very close to the “correct” values, which would be the values adjusted to a well-standardized range scale. The problem is not with the measured IQs, but with the percentiles calculated based on the incorrect assumption that these scores are normally distributed. This topic will be analyzed again at other times, in more detail, when the topics covered require it. For now, this introduction should be enough to clear up much of the confusion that occurs with the indiscriminate use of the term “IQ”, without making the correct distinction between pIQ and rIQ.

When Chris Harding was registered in the 1966 Guinness Book with an IQ of 197, based on his Stanford-Binet results, this was a relatively primary and serious error because it incurs all 3 problematic items I cited above: SB does not include questions difficult enough to correctly measure above 135; the cognitive processes required in the solutions are not appropriate for IQs above 150; the calculated rarity level is incorrect.

In 1966, the world population was 3.41 billion people, and the theoretical level of rarity for scores 197, assuming the distribution of scores was a Gaussian with a mean of 100 and a standard deviation of 16, was 1 in 1.49 billion. So it seemed plausible that a person with that score could be proclaimed the smartest person in the world, or at least the person with the highest IQ in the world. However, a correct analysis of the situation reveals that the SB score of 197 does not indicate a rarity level of 1 in 1,490,000,000, but 1 in 870,000 (about 2000 times more abundant). Also, the variable measured at the rarity level of 1 in 870,000 is not intelligence. At this juncture, the most that could be said on the basis of a SB score of 197 is that the person showed consistent evidence of having an intellectual level above 135 IQ, and as their nominal score was well above 135, there is a good chance that their The correct IQ is greater than 150, perhaps greater than 160, but it would be necessary to prescribe a complementary exam, with more difficult questions and with appropriate construct validity, to investigate the real intellectual level of this person, since scores above 135 are outside the range at which the test is able to measure correctly.

In the following years, several other people began to emerge claiming the same record, with scores of 196-197. This continued until 1978, when the situation worsened, first with Kim Ung-Yong scoring 210, then Marilyn vos Savant scoring 230, corrected to 228, then corrected to 218, and finally Keith Raniere , in 1989, scoring 242. All based on clinical tests that are not suitable for correctly measuring above 135.

A similar problem happened to Langan in the Mega Test. The difficulty level of the Mega Test questions is suitable for correctly measuring up to about pIQ 194, equivalent to about rIQ 177, which corresponds to a rarity level of 1 in 1,340,000. This is the realistic rarity level corresponding to the Mega Test ceiling. In 2000 I had calculated a ceiling of pIQ 186 for the Mega Test, equivalent to rIQ 169, hence a rarity level of 1 in 124,000, but I was basing it on the sample of 520 tests available on Miyaguchi’s website. However, this sample is not representative of the set of more than 4,000 people examined with the Mega Test. This sample is stratified by 10 out of 10 (10 people with each IQ when possible). That is why there is a concentration of high scores above the “correct”, causing the difficulty of the items, especially the most difficult items (which is determined by the proportion between errors and hits) to end up being lower than the correct one, since there are more people with higher scores, there will be a higher percentage of hits than if the entire sample had been considered. Another factor is that even considering all the more than 4,000 people evaluated by the Mega Test, there is a self-selection that produces a higher concentration of people with high scores than that observed among the general population. With these two complementary adjustments, I redid my calculations for this standard and arrived at the numbers I cited above.

Therefore, with a raw score of 47/48, obtained by Langan on his second attempt, the corresponding rIQ is 176, equivalent to pIQ 192, that is, a rarity level of approximately 1 in 983,000. The actual rarity level of Mega Society is around 1 in 62,000 and Prometheus 1 in 8,000. In the cases of ISPE, TNS, etc., as they are in a range where the distortions are smaller, the true rarity is also closer to the theoretical rarity. 1 in 600. And in the case of Intertel and Mensa, they are practically unaffected. The theoretical percentile 98.04% for pIQ 133 score is equivalent to rIQ 131.8, therefore percentile 97.66%.

There are two other points I would like to comment on in this introductory text, before proceeding: on the meaning of “intelligence” and on the meaning of “certificate”, but the text has become too long and it is perhaps better to remove it, as well as other parts of some answers. Anyway, I’ve saved the full text in a separate file, in case it has any additional use or to be used on another occasion.

Having made these clarifications, we can now begin the answers.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: When you were growing up, what were some of the prominent family stories being told over time?

Hindemburg Melão Jr.: I’m not very interested in stories.

Jacobsen: Did these stories help give a sense of an extended self or a sense of family legacy?

Melão Jr.: My grandparents were very poor, my father only studied until the second year of elementary school (2nd year). He was exceptionally intelligent, creative, had hypermnesia and a wide range of intellectual and kinesthetic talents. This allowed him to lift himself out of extreme poverty and provide a satisfying environment for his children, but not much else. My parents’ legacy is almost exclusively genetic.

Jacobsen: What was the family background, eg geography, culture, language and religion or lack thereof?

Melão Jr.: My maternal great-grandfather was a native Indian of Brazil, my paternal great-grandfather was Portuguese. My family was Catholic at the time I was born, but later they converted to Kardecism, preserving some Catholic habits. I became an atheist at approximately 11 years old, then an agnostic at 17 and a deist at 27. I was interested in the Bahá’í Faith for some time, but did not participate in any activities. I am writing a book dealing with Science and Religion, in which I cover some of these topics in more detail.

Jacobsen: How was the experience with peers and schoolmates as a child and teenager?

Melão Jr.: It was reasonably quiet, I had no problems with bullying that could be associated with discrimination on cognitive grounds. I was bullied for other reasons, because I had my eyebrows together, but nothing that caused me great embarrassment, even because I had been practicing martial arts since I was 7 years old, so if I thought they were crossing the line, I reacted in a different way. energetically and that kept them from bothering me again

My problems were with some teachers more than colleagues, because I had the incorrect view that teachers couldn’t make mistakes in their discipline, but in the real world it’s very different from that. Virtually every teacher made several mistakes every day, and I used to point out the most serious mistakes. Most of them reacted positively to it, some were grateful for the corrections and revised it immediately, but others did not accept this type of correction, especially when it came from a 7 or 8 year old. A remarkable episode occurred in a Geography class, when I was 9 years old, and the teacher asked the students to calculate the size of the Brazilian coast. When I started to perform the task, I realized that it didn’t make sense, because the measurement would depend on the level of detail of the map, so there was no possible answer. So I explained the problem to her, but she didn’t understand my explanation. She thought I was referring to the map being on a different scale than its actual size. So I explained again, but it didn’t help, she still didn’t understand, got angry and ended up acting oppressive, ordering me to shut up, and continued to “teach” incorrectly. It was a very unpleasant episode. Usually the errors that I identified were errors of the professors, but in this case it was much more serious, because it was an institutionalized error and accepted as if it was correct by the “authorities” in that discipline, it was wrong in the book and probably in all other books, being incorrectly taught to all students. In fact, this remains wrong to this day, 40 years later, in virtually every source on the subject, including Wikipedia, Encyclopedia Britannica, IBGE, Cia World Factbook, US Bureau of Labor Statistics, etc. The problem is not that the measurement number is wrong. The problem is that the question does not make sense because there is no “length” of the coastline, there is no possible answer with dimension 1, because the perimeter has a dimension greater than 1 and less than 2. Although it was unpleasant, it was also a problem. event that I remember with pride, for having deduced one of the fundamentals of Fractal Geometry, impromptu, at the age of 9.

Jacobsen: What are some of the certifications, qualifications and professional training you have obtained?

Melão Jr.: The primary purpose of certifications should be to certify that a certain person or entity fulfills requirements that would not be easily verifiable by a person from the general population. For example, an uneducated person would find it difficult to correctly assess whether a doctor is capable of treating their health, or to decide whether it would be better to receive treatment from an allopathic method or from a healer. That is why there are regulatory bodies, made up of experienced and supposedly competent specialists, which establish norms that theoretically should be necessary and sufficient to distinguish between qualified and unqualified professionals, protecting the less educated population against the provision of unsatisfactory or even unsatisfactory services and products. harmful. This is nice in theory, but in practice it doesn’t work so well, and the certification industry ends up serving other purposes, including market reserve, nepotism, the cult of vanity and egolatry.

Certificates often do not fulfill the function for which they were created, either approving insufficiently skilled people/entities , or failing to approve overqualified people. For this reason, it would be more important and fairer to examine actual achievements, competences and merits, rather than examining certifications that would recognize these merits, because merits have intrinsic value, while certifications are mere appearances that they sometimes try to represent. the merits, but they don’t always get it right.

There is even a large industry for trading fraudulent certificates, and little enforcement over it. The American Biographical Institute (ABI) is famous for selling worthless certifications, and has been operating since 1967. There are many similar bodies that specialize in printing beautiful certificates, promoting certification ceremonies, and so on. Usually people who consume these products are naive victims, but it is also possible that some people buy these certificates knowing what they mean (or don’t mean).

Wikipedia has the following description for the ABI:

“The American Biographical Institute (ABI) was a paid-inclusion vanity biographical reference directory publisher based in Raleigh, North Carolina which had been publishing biographies since 1967. It generated revenue from sales of fraudulent certificates and books. Each year the company awarded hundreds of “Man of the Year” or “Woman of the Year” awards at between $195 and $295 each.”

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Biographical_Institute

There are currently several PO Box universities handing out Ph.D. Like water. I watched some statements from people who bought these titles, the vast majority of these people really believed they had some value and were excited, happy and proud to receive the title. But maybe not everyone is naive and some understand that these titles don’t represent something real, but use it for obscure purposes. There is a member of mensa brasil who has more than 50 academic titles from a PO Box university, founded in 2021, but on the “institution” website he claims to have been founded in 2006. I find it funny, and at the same time sad, that journalists who publish the articles about this do not suspect that a 40-year-old person, who only had 1 B.Sc. by 2020, it suddenly had more than 50 academic degrees in 2022, including several Ph.Ds. and postdocs. In addition to the certificates purchased, this person also claims that TNS is the most exclusive high-IQ society in the world, he uses his IQ with a standard deviation of 24 to compare with a fictitious “IQ” of 160 attributed to Einstein, among other things, and journalists publish everything without checking.

There are also people who buy these certificates, knowing they are worthless, with no intention of making dishonest use, perhaps as a table decoration or something. For example, Chris Harding is a customer of ABI, he has acquired several titles from that company, as he declares in his profile on the OlympIQ Society. Harding has some real merits, because even though the SB doesn’t correctly rate above 140, it is recognized that this test assesses some sort of skill mixed with intelligence, and few people achieve Harding’s score on this exam. So while some certificates are purchased from him, others are based on real merit and issued by serious institutions, such as those related to his IQ records and his affiliations to high-IQ societies. However, even reputable certificates, which try to represent true merits, often attest to something that is not a good representation of reality. As I mentioned at the beginning, the SB score of 197 or 196 could not be interpreted the way it was, and the official reports and certificates issued are saying something that represents a collective belief, but very different from concrete reality.

Harding is very smart, but not based on the score he got in the SB, but based on his various opinions on different subjects. His real merits are in his essence, in his actions, in his thoughts, not in pieces of paper.

From the moment a person channels his thoughts and actions to produce something concrete, he begins to share his essence with the world, disseminating knowledge and wisdom, or disseminating futility and misinformation, depending on the quality of what he shares. And the perception that other people have of what she shared will depend not only on the quality of what she externalized, but also on the sensitivity and insight of the person receiving the information. If a brilliant person disseminates knowledge of a very high level among a very futile audience, the value of that knowledge will not be recognized and he will have no certifications, no awards, nor any recognition, while other people who are disseminating vulgar and shallow knowledge, compatible with the public that receives it and issues the certifications, that person will be acclaimed and glorified.

People are not rewarded or certified because their achievements are great, but because their achievements are perceived as great by the members of the committees responsible for the approval of awards and certifications. In addition, there are a number of other political, social, racial, etc. biases that interfere with the decisions of committee members, making certifications and awards even more inconsistent with the objective they should have.

This effect occurs, for example, in some Cooijmans tests, where the test does not measure IQ, but rather how similar the person’s IQ is compared to the Cooijmans IQ. If the person has the same IQ as Cooijmans, he will have a maximum score. If she has an IQ much higher or much lower than Cooijmans’ IQ, her score will be low. In the question about IQ tests, I comment in more detail on this problem.

I will cite a few striking examples, some quite well known, but they are worth recalling. I believe that one of the most tragic and striking is that of Galileo, who instead of being rewarded for his remarkable contributions to the understanding of the Universe, he was severely punished. In fact, his daughter Celeste ended up being punished in his place. In more recent times, one of the cases that I find very sad is that of George Zweig, who developed his Theory of Aces at the same time that Murray Gell-Mann developed the Theory of Quarks. Both were essentially the same, however the journal to which Zweig submitted his paper refused to publish it, while Gell-Mann’s paper won him the Nobel Prize in Physics. There are at least 45 known cases of controversial Nobel prizes, of people who received undeserving or deserved it but did not. The world’s most respected award is desecrated by dozens of injustices, perhaps hundreds if you consider the ones that have not been discovered. Even Einstein is one of the biggest victims, since he deserved to have received 5 Nobel prizes, however he received only 1, for racial, xenophobic, Nazi reasons etc.

I believe that now I can answer this question by dividing it into two parts:

  1. Awards and certifications.
  2. Merits so far not recognized.

I have few certificates. When I was young, I was in the habit of putting trophies and medals in Chess, Martial Arts, Arts Education, etc. on a shelf, but during one of the changes of address, one of my trophies broke. Initially I was sad, because they were important to me. But as I thought more about the “disaster,” I realized that they really didn’t matter. What really mattered were the merits that led me to win those awards, as well as some merits that were not awarded. There were also cases in which I had no merit, but had been awarded due to some fateful fate. That doesn’t mean I’m not a vain person. I am, but I’ve learned that most of the time you get nothing or almost nothing for something valuable, while other times you get more than what’s fair for something of little or even worthless. Unfortunately, the world rewards appearances much more than essence.

One of my few certificates is the world record holder for longest announced mate in simultaneous blind chess, recorded in the 1998 Guinness Book. Perhaps some people are not familiar with the meaning of “blind chess” and “announced mate ”. This video helps to understand the dynamics of a blind simultaneous: https://youtu.be/LUo89Cl9FPY . It’s an old, low quality video, but to exemplify the mechanism of the event, I think it’s appropriate:

I will give a brief description: in a simultaneous, one person (simultanist) plays at the same time against several opponents (simultaneously), each of which has its own board. It is different from a consultation game, where several players can consult each other on a single board and decide on the best move by voting. In a simulcast, each simulcast has its own board and each game follows its own course.

In this case, as it is a blind simultaneous, the simultanist does not have visual access to any of the boards, nor to the pieces, nor to the summaries, nor to any type of record of moves or positions. At no time may the simultanist look at any of the boards, nor request any information that helps him to remember the positions of the pieces, nor any specific piece, nor that helps him to remember the order of the moves, nor any other type of information that can in some way help with the matches. The position of each of the pieces on each of the boards is registered exclusively in the simultanist’s memory and these positions are mentally updated with each move. In addition, at each move the simultanist needs to make the calculations of the variants and sub-variants necessary to make his decisions about the move to be executed, taking care not to confuse the memories of the calculated variants with the memories of the variants actually played, among others. care.

The game develops as follows: the simultanist stands with his back to the boards and communicates his moves to an assistant (speaker), who executes each simultanist move on the respective board. Then, the simultaneous player on that board executes his answer on the board and the speaker verbally communicates to the simultaneous player which move was executed by that simultaneous player. Then the speaker moves to the next board, where again the simultaneous player declares his move and this is executed on that board by the speaker, etc.

There are easier (or less difficult) versions, in which the player can blindly access a list with all the moves noted, as in Melody Amber’s tournaments, in which, in addition to being individual games, instead of simultaneous , competitors can also see an empty board, which facilitates calculations and reduces the risk of forgetting the position of a piece. But under the strictest rules, as in my 1997 Guinness record, it was not allowed to have access to the move history, nor to see an empty board, nor any other similar kind of aid. It is equivalent to being blindfolded all the time, from start to finish of the event.

That record set in 1997 was a blind simultaneous to 9 boards, in one of which I announced mate in 12 moves. The average rating of my opponents was estimated at around 1400. I got 7 wins, 1 draw and 1 loss.

Previous record holders were: Joseph Henry Blackburne (mate in 8 moves in a 10-board blind match in the year 1877), Samuel Rosenthal (mate in 8 moves in a 4-board blind match in the year 1885) and Garry Kasparov (mate in 8 moves in a blind simultaneous to 8 boards, in the year 1985). There was also an event in 1899, in which Harry Nelson Pillsbury announced mate at 8 in a 10-board blind simultaneous, but there was a miscount. Following the sequence dictated by Pillsbury, mate took place in 7 moves.

In the case of Kasparov, there are some details that need to be clarified: he played a blind simul against the 8 best computers of the time, including the world champion Mephisto Amsterdam 68000 RISC 12MHz. The average rating of these machines was about 1500 and the best reached 1800. The best computer in the world in 1985 was precisely the Mephisto Amsterdam, whose rating published by the manufacturer was 2265, but later measured by SSDF in 1827 (based on 1020 matches). In the match against Mephisto Amsterdam, Kasparov played a beautiful combination with an 8-moves mate streak, but there is no record of him having announced the mate. In any case, as he sacrificed a Rook and two pieces at the start of the combination, it is clear that he correctly calculated the entire sequence.

In 2005, Rede Globo did a report for the program “Fantástico” celebrating 100 years of IQ tests, and I was nominated as the person with the highest IQ in Brazil, at the level of 1 in 200 million. This is an example of “recognition” that I’m not sure was correctly assigned. In the question about IQ, I discuss this subject in more detail.

Recently, my friend Domagoj Kutle honored me with a kind invitation to publish in his excellent magazine Deus VULT, and requested that I also send a short biography. My girlfriend Tamara kindly helped me craft this material, including some of my accomplishments. I think this would fit here, so I’ll paste the text:

Melao mini-bio, by Tamara Rodrigues:

Hindemburg Melao Jr. was born in Brazil, in a family with few resources, and only attended school until the 11th grade, having learned almost completely as self-taught.

In 1998 he was registered in the Guinness Book as the holder of the world record for longest announced checkmate in blindfold simultaneous chess games.

Between 2006 and 2010 he developed an artificial intelligence system to trade in the Financial Market; in 2015, his friend and partner Joao A.L.J. incorporated a hedge fund to use this system and started to be registered in fund rankings (BarclayHedge, IASG and Preqin), winning 21 international high performance awards.

In 2007, Melao solved a problem that had been unsatisfactorily solved for 22 years, by creating an index to measure performance adjusted at risk that was more accurate, more predictive and conceptually better founded than the traditional indexes of William Sharpe (Nobel prize 1990) and Franco Modigliani (Nobel 1985).

In 2003 he solved a 160+ year old problem by proposing a new formula for calculating BMI, superior to the traditional one and superior to the formula proposed in 2013 by Nick Trefethen, Chief of the Dept. of Numerical Analysis at the University of Oxford, Leslie Fox Prize(1985), FRS prize, (2005), IMA Gold Medal (2010). Trefethen’s 2013 formula is an incomplete version of Melao’s 2003 formula.

In 2000 Melao developed the first method for standardization of intelligence tests that produces scores in scale of ratio and in 2003 he applied this method in the Sigma Test norm (he also calculated new norms for Mega and Titan tests using the same method), thereby solving a problem of Psychometry that exists more than 90 years ago and was pointed by Thurstone and Gardner as a central question of Psychometry more than 45 years ago.

In 2002 Melao found the best solution to a problem that has existed for more than 520 years and had been attacked for more than 65 years, the Shannon Number, which was only matched in 2014 by Stefan Steinerberger, professor of mathematics at Yale University.

In 2015 Melao showed that the method recommended by the Nobel Prize in Economics Harry Markowitz, for portfolio optimization, has some flaws, and proposed some improvements that make this method more efficient and safer.

In 2021 Melao pointed out flaws in the recommendation of the 2003 Nobel Prize in Economics, Clive Granger, regarding the use of the concept of cointegration, and presented a more adequate solution to the same problem.

In 2022, Melao solved a problem that had been open for 16 years, in which he established a method for calculating chess ratings based on the quality of the moves. Also presented an improved version of the Elo system, applying both methods to calculate the ratings of more than 100,000 players between years 1475 and 2021, the results were published in a book, along with the description of the two methods.

At 9 years old Melao deduced one of the fundamentals of Fractal Geometry and at 13 he developed a method to calculate logarithms. At age 19 he developed a method for calculating factorials of decimal numbers without using Calculus.

Also at the age of 19 (1991) he developed an invisibility machine project, which in 1993 he inscribe in a contest of ficction Literature (although the project is consistent with Scientific Method), but did not win. In 2003 Susumu Tachi, Emeritus Professor at the University of Tokyo and guest Professor at MIT, created (independently) a simplified version of this project and built a prototype.

In 2020 Hindemburg presented a study showing that Jupiter’s Great Red Spot cannot be 350+ years old, as was believed. The correct age is around 144 years old.

In 2000 Melao had a chess theoretical novelty elected one of the 10 most important in the world by the Sahovski Informator jury, the world champion Anand was one of the judges and Anand’s vote was that this novelty should be the 8th most important.

In 2004 Baran Yonter, founder of Pars Society (IQ>180, σ=16), estimated that Melao IQ should be above 200 (σ=16).

In 2005 the production of the program “Fantástico”, from Globo (second-largest commercial TV network in the world), made a special report on intelligence, celebrating the centenary of the creation of IQ tests, and Melao was nominated as the person with the highest IQ in Brazil, with a rarity level of 1 in 200 million.

In 2009 Melao was nominated by Albert Frank to participate in a John Hallenborg project with people whose IQ is at the rarity level above 1 in 1 million.

In 2000 Melao updated and extended his “Alpha Tests” that he had created in 1991, added new questions, and created the Sigma Test.

In 2022 he extended the Sigma Test by creating the extended version.

Melao is author of more than 1700 articles on Science, Statistics, Psychometrics, Econometrics, Chess, Mathematics, Astronomy, Physics, Cognitive Science, Ethics, Philosophy of Science, History of Science, Education etc.

Detailed bio of Melao (documents, videos, interviews, articles, reports etc.) at: https://www.sigmasociety.net/hm

Although I practiced Martial Arts for several years (maybe ~11 years if you add up all active periods), I didn’t get any certification, because the time was distributed among many different disciplines and I didn’t reach black belt in any of them. But I reached a reasonable technical level. For handguns, maybe I’m in the 99.9% percentile and in the specific case of nunchaku, maybe 99.999%. This is a video from 2016, I was already kind of old and rusty https://youtu.be/jCw–5H34x4 . On the same channel there are also videos with other weapons (sword, tonfa, kama, sam-tien-kuan, etc.).

In 2020 I was invited to a group of the 26 best planetary astrophotographers in Brazil. Although there is no certificate for it, I was very happy because it is one of my favorite hobbies. I would like to take this opportunity to thank my friend Vinícius Martins, who taught me almost everything I know about planetary image processing, I believe that in a short time he will be one of the 5 best astrophotographers in the world, he combines 3 fundamental extraordinary talent, an immense love for this activity and a deep knowledge that is constantly expanded and updated.

Among the certifications that I do not have, one of the most interesting is the CFA, granted to investment managers. It is interesting because between 2006 and 2010 I developed an artificial intelligence system to operate in the Financial Market that between 2015 and 2020, when it was used by a European fund, won 21 international high performance awards in the Barclay’s Hedge, Preqin and IASG rankings, being also the second best investment system in the world between 2011 and 2016. However, I was banned by the CVM from providing management services because I do not have the CFA certificate. In 2014, a petition was made to request that the CVM (Brazilian Capital Markets Regulator) issue me a certificate on an extraordinary basis. The claim was based on the wording of CVM Instruction 306 and on the fact that my system had accumulated more than double the profit of the fund that occupied the first place (ahead of 282 other funds, all managed by certified managers) in the ranking of the InfoMoney, the largest ranking of funds in Brazil. Among the people who signed the petition on my behalf were several university professors, several professional managers, and several members of high-IQ societies, including Dany Provost of Giga Society. However, the claim was not accepted and I still do not have this certificate. By the way, the two most famous managers in the world, Warren Buffett and George Soros, also don’t have a manager certificate, so I’m in good company. Buffett solved this problem by incorporating a company that buys other companies, rather than running a fund. Soros solved the problem by putting his friend Jimmy Rogers as gestures (Jimmy had the necessary certification), I solved the problem by trading licenses to use my system, with a volume limit of application for each license and a renewal period.

Among the certifications I don’t have, I can also include CNH, although I drive outside the law (I’m practically a gangster). I stopped going to school in the 5th grade, then I went back a few times, due to pressure from my parents. I would come back, I would continue enrolled for a few months, I would run out of patience, I would stop again, my parents would pressure me to come back, I would come back again, etc. I finished high school (11th grade) and entered the Physics faculty, but I didn’t like the course and I stopped for good after 2 months. In the first week of class, I reviewed the Physics I textbook and pointed out over 200 errors, sent my comments to the author, with an introductory note trying to be tactful so he wouldn’t be offended, but he never responded. I also pointed out two serious conceptual errors in the methods used in the Physics laboratory, which should impact the results of the experiments; one of them, on the crumpled paper balls, is the same “experiment” carried out in the Mathematics Department at Yale University, where they also make the same mistake. In that case, Prof. Dr. Paulo Reginaldo Pascholati had an honorable conduct, he received my criticisms with humility, he did some experiments to investigate whether the error I indicated was justified, he found that I was right and, in the next class, he publicly admitted the error. I found his conduct exemplary in this regard, however the handout was not corrected and they continued to do the experiment incorrectly.

Anyway, I decided that university was a waste of time and it would be more productive to study on my own, but it’s not that simple, and this decision proved questionable on some occasions. The distance from the academic career has some positive aspects, some negative ones. One of the positive aspects is that I can select my own curriculum, go at my own pace, and delve as deep into each topic as I want. One of the negative aspects is that it becomes more difficult to have access to satisfactory bibliography and even more difficult to publish in indexed journals. In doing so, I practically ostracized myself.

Therefore, certificates are useful, but it is important to understand the limitations and distortions they may present, so as not to run the risk of dealing with them in a bureaucratic way, to the point of being placed above the real capacity verified empirically on a continuous basis. Certificates reflect the opinions of people or institutions that are often not qualified enough to make correct assessments on the merits and to decide impartially. In the example of the CFA, certifications are literally distributed based on excessively condescending criteria, which are far from sufficient to select qualified people to exercise the role of manager, which is why more than 95% of certified managers generate losses for their clients. Perhaps this effect is more noticeable in the Capital Markets than in any other activity, but it also frequently occurs in Journalism, Advertising, Administration, etc., where some people without training in these disciplines may eventually be more qualified than certified people, but for protect the less competent, laws are created that prevent companies from hiring the most competent, using certificates as an instrument of discrimination and apology for mediocrity.

I wrote an extended version of this answer, in which I discuss some failures in the education system in Brazil and in the world, justifying why I moved away from academic life. I also point out and analyze the mistakes made by Richard Lynn in his study of IQs in different countries and explain why it would not be correct to try to justify the educational problem in Brazil based on the supposedly low average IQ of the population, as well as revise the estimate for the IQ average for some countries, including Equatorial Guinea, Israel and Brazil. The text was 10 A4 pages, so I thought it best to put it as an appendix.

Jacobsen: What is the purpose of intelligence tests for you?

Melão Jr.: the most important attribute of living beings is intelligence. Without intelligence there would be no Ethics, Laws, Science or Art. In order to correctly delegate the most important tasks to the most qualified people, it is necessary to correctly identify and rank people according to their abilities. That is why correctly measuring intelligence and using the results as a criterion for assigning positions and tasks, according to the level of competence, is extremely important, but unfortunately this is not what happens. There are two big problems:

  1. The first is that the world is dominated by nepotism;
  2. The second is that there are no appropriate intelligence tests to correctly measure at the highest levels.

In the late 19th century, the first tests by Galton and Cattell failed to satisfactorily measure intelligence, but it was an interesting attempt. The hypothesis that the speed of reflexes, visual acuity, auditory acuity, etc. could be relevant indicative of the intellectual level proved to be inadequate. In 1904, Binet and Otis managed to solve this problem by using questions that required the combined use of various cognitive skills – rather than trying to measure primary aptitudes, as Galton did – but Binet’s tests only measured correctly up to about 140. Terman’s attempts in 1921 to use Binet’s tests to select future geniuses failed. Among the 1528 children selected with an IQ above 135 (more than 70 with an IQ above 177), none won a Nobel or any similar prize, while two of the unselected children won Nobel prizes. The test worked very well until about 130, the selected children published more books, more articles, had a higher average income than the children in the other group, but at the higher levels, the test failed and missed some of the brightest children. The results of this study had an extremely deleterious effect, undermining the credibility of IQ tests in the eyes of the general public and in the eyes of many intellectual exponents from scientific, technological, cultural and educational fields, so it would be important to clarify the limits of until point these tests can measure correctly, so that unrealistic expectations are not created and so that they are not applied incorrectly outside these limits.

In 1973, Kevin Langdon created the LAIT (Langdon Adult Intelligence Test) and with that he managed to raise the difficulty level to close to 170 and the construct validity to 150; In 1985, Ronald Hoeflin took another important step forward with the Mega Test, raising the difficulty level to about pIQ 190 and construct validity to 170, and these contributions broadened the horizons of application of intelligence tests, which previously worked well until the approximate level of 1 in 100, while the new tests started working up to 1 in 100,000. On the other hand, from the 1990s onwards, some fantasy tests began to appear with nominal ceilings that reached 250, although the real ceiling of difficulty did not reach 180 and the ceiling of construct validity was around 150, as the ISIS Test by Paul Cooijmans. Some of these fantasy tests keep popping up to this day, and this exacerbates the prejudice many people have against IQ tests, because if a person has refined critical thinking and a skeptical attitude, he realizes that there are inconsistencies in results like Feynman’s ( 123) and Rosner (193, 196, 198 etc.). Both are very intelligent, and the problems that Feynman solved are more difficult than the problems that Rosner solved, which could be interpreted as indicating that Feynman was more intelligent, so how is it possible for a serious standardized system of evaluation to assign 190+ to Rosner and 123 for Feynman? Something is obviously not right about this, and people often don’t identify exactly where the error is, so they generally conclude that all IQ tests don’t work, or they don’t even know that there is more than one type of IQ test. IQ That’s why clarifying the range in which each type of test works contributes to combating this type of prejudice. If Feynman’s true IQ, based on the difficulty, complexity, and depth of the problems he solved on quantum electrodynamics, superfluids, etc. were put on the same scale that Rosner’s IQ is represented, Feynman’s correct IQ would be close to 235. And to explain this number above 200, I would first have to show that the distribution of scores is not Gaussian, etc. etc. Then that apparent initial inconsistency would disappear and everything would become clearer and more logical. The same is true for Einstein’s fictitious IQ of 160, whose correct value, if placed on the same scale as the scores measured by the tests, would be close to 250.

In 2000, the Sigma Test brought solutions to the 3 problems cited in the introductory text, with the main focus on construct validity, using questions based on real-world problems that require a combination of convergent and divergent thinking at different levels of difficulty, complexity and depth, consistent with the IQ levels to be measured. More recently, the Sigma Test Extended raised the ceiling on difficulty to about pIQ 225 and construct validity to about 210. However, in a population of 7.9 billion, the smartest adult person in the world must have an rIQ of around 210. 201, equivalent to about pIQ 245, thus far outside the limits that STE can measure. Nevertheless, for some of the smartest 100 or 200 people alive, STE could provide reliable measures of real intelligence, with good construct validity at this level, in addition to offering a stimulating intellectual challenge. This would fix some urban legends disseminated in various sources, such as that the average IQ of Nobel laureates in Science is “only” 154. With the use of a properly standardized test, with an appropriate difficulty level and good construct validity, the The average IQ of Nobel Prize winners in Science should be between 170 and 190. With the use of appropriate tests it is possible to correctly reposition the scores, both up and down. This would also overcome some prejudices against IQ tests, because one of the reasons for rejection is precisely due to the bizarre results for Feynman (123), Fischer (123*), Kasparov (123, 135), Shockley (<135), Alvarez ( <135), Feynman’s sister (124), etc., because that takes away the credibility of the tests, as these scores are far more likely to be wrong than these people having IQs below the 1 in a thousand level, when in fact they should be above 1 in 1 million (and Feynman close to 1 in 1 billion). When we can show that tests are able to measure correctly even at very high levels and provide realistic results, consistent with the achievements of these people in real-world problems, we can restore credibility to intelligence tests as serious and reliable instruments capable of to perform one of the most important functions, which is precisely to make early predictions of genius. [*Although many sources mention an IQ of 187, 181, or 180 for Fischer, his 1958 reports show a score of 123]

So while there are no tests capable of correctly measuring at the level needed to pinpoint the smartest person alive, or rank the 10 smartest, there has been substantial progress since Binet’s first tests, and if Terman were alive today and developing the same study from 1921, but starting in 2000, and if he used the STE instead of the SB, most likely the smartest children would all (or almost all) be selected in his group, and the subsequent results would have been confirmatory even at the highest levels, corroborating the thesis he defended, that it is possible to predict genius early, but not with the tests that existed at that time. The thesis itself was correct, as was Leonardo Da Vinci’s helicopter, but the technology still needed to advance a little further for the thesis to have the necessary subsidies to be tested properly.

Jacobsen: When was high intelligence discovered for you?

Melão Jr.: I find it difficult to determine this precisely. The first time I was examined in a clinic, I was 3 years old, but at 6 months of age I was able to speak reasonably fluently, so there was some earlier evidence.

Jacobsen: When you think about the ways in which the geniuses of the past were mocked, vilified and condemned, if not killed, or praised, flattered, plagiarized and revered, what seems to be the reason for the extreme reactions and treatment of geniuses? Many alive today seem camera-shy – many, not all.

Melão Jr.: I don’t think it’s a problem of the past. It is still present in many primitive cultures, such as in Brazil and in several African countries. The vast majority of the population adopts a posture of hostility, envy and boycott not only against geniuses, but against anyone who may be having any kind of success. Recently my girlfriend showed me a video of Ozires Silva, who was Minister of Infrastructure and president of Petrobras. He comments that during a dinner attended by some members of the Nobel committee (link to the video: https://youtu.be/m3u-E5XdzZ4 ) he asked why they thought Brazil had no Nobel laureates, since several Latin American countries with lower population and lower GDP even had more than one Nobel Prize. One of the committee members commented “you Brazilians are hero destroyers”. Unfortunately, this is a fact that is still present in our daily lives.

At the time I got to know high IQ communities, 1999, some famous names were William James Sidis, Marilyn vos Savant, Chris Langan, Rick Rosner, Grady Towers etc. Langan was a security guard at a nightclub, Rosner was a nudist model and also worked for a time as a security guard, Grady Towers was a security guard at a park and died a tragic and untimely death in 2000. Sidis spent the last decades of his life in underemployment and collecting license plates. Marilyn was a columnist for a magazine and got a reasonable standard of living out of it, as well as good prestige and recognition outside of high-IQ communities, as well as a lot of hateful envious. With the exception of Marilyn, the other people I mentioned earned minimum wage and still spent part of their time without a job, while many people are hired to fill positions that they are not even qualified, earning small fortunes as well as prestige and recognition.

This situation is very sad. Although Langan was not the smartest man in the Americas, as he claimed in 2000, or in world history, as he began to claim some time later, he is arguably a much smarter and more competent person than 99% of Ph. Ds. in any area and more than 99.9% of the CEOs of companies. He may not have had such a vast culture and expertise needed to solve major scientific problems, but he certainly would have given better administrative and political solutions than any president the US has ever had. I don’t know if he would be the best president, because being a great president isn’t just about solving problems. He would also need to have sensitivity, empathy, kindness, honesty and other attributes. But generally many people have these attributes at the required level. What they usually lack is precisely intelligence. I’m not saying that Langan or Rosner should be presidents. But, pondering the positives and negatives, I would bet on them as better presidents than the average of recent presidents.

Persecution and oppression can sometimes happen silently, and this is often even worse because it is harder to detect and combat. How is it possible that a person with Langan’s intellectual potential was not discovered by a large company that hired him for a millionaire salary so that he would solve internal problems in a way that generates more profit for the company than other less competent people working in the same role? There are grotesque errors in this. The vast majority of companies are contaminated by mobs of incompetents and cheats, who instead of hiring and promoting based on merit, do almost exactly the opposite, because they feel threatened by those who are more competent than themselves. This is a complete disaster not only for the companies they work for, but for the entire harmony of civilization. In Norway, Sweden, Holland, Finland, Switzerland, Denmark, etc. these problems are very rare, but in brazil this is a constant that sinks the country. In the USA, the problem may not be as serious as it is in Brazil, but when we look at the cases of Langan and Rosner, it is clear that there are serious flaws in the performance of the headhunters, failing to hire some of the most qualified people in the country, who started to most of their lives in sub-professional activities. I have cited the examples of Langan and Rosner, but the same is true of a large number of people with far above average IQs, who are working in incompatible activities, with incomes far below what they deserve, producing less than they should, while people very less capable are in high positions, making absurd mistakes and sinking companies or even sinking entire nations. My girlfriend is an environmental engineer and exceptionally smart, she worked at a large company where she solved problems that saved tens of thousands of dollars monthly by cutting waste, as well as contributing to reducing pollution. One of the solutions involving the replacement of a pipeline generated savings of a few million. If she were placed in a higher position, where her performance had greater reach, it could save the company tens or hundreds of millions. However, she was invited to participate in a corruption scheme, she refused, the person who made the invitation was afraid that she would denounce them and fired her.

In “The Republic”, Plato commented on the importance of kings being philosophers and philosophers being kings. This seems to me the most natural, substituting “philosophers” for “competent” which is usually almost synonymous with “intelligent”. And replacing “kings” with an equivalent modern meaning, which can be CEOs of big companies, mayors, governors and presidents. In the US there are several mechanisms to discover and mentor talented children and young people, there are several specialized programs. According to Eunice Maria Lima Soriano de Alencar, in the 1970s there were over 1200 educational programs for gifted children in the US. How is it possible that these programs “missed” Langan and Rosner? How could a respected entity like Hollingworth Institute not discover them? It’s not possible that they didn’t excel at school. In Brazil I would think this is normal, Brazil lets almost all the great talents go down the drain. But in the US I find it surprising that this has happened. There are records that Langan scored perfect on the SAT and received scholarships at two universities, but it appears that he lost his scholarship because he was late one day because his car broke down. This is pretty ridiculous. Even if he missed every class, he would probably learn more and better than 99% of his classmates who were present in every class. The universities did not award scholarships in recognition of his genius, but as a “handout”, with restrictive conditions to withdraw the handout if he did not meet certain criteria.

This waste of great talent is one of the main reasons that leads a country to ruin. China is catching up and surpassing the US in large part because China has invested more seriously and more heavily in special education for gifted children, while the US is making gross mistakes like this, letting great minds like Langan, Rosner, Towers are wasted on jobs like nightclub or park security, while less-skilled people lead big companies, govern cities and states.

Nepotism is not an exclusively family phenomenon. It is much broader, leading to the placement of underqualified people in positions that should be filled by others with more merit. There is no optimization in the delegation of positions, responsibilities, tasks, incentives, awards, etc. And this lack of optimization is obviously penalized. Competitors who optimize this best take the lead.

In Brazil the situation is much more serious, because there are no such programs. There were a few isolated initiatives, which reached a few dozen children, but they did not last long.

Intelligence tests are extremely important to be used in these talent discovery processes. Although the tests have several flaws, it is better that they are applied as far as possible, with errors and patches, than if they were not applied and this calamity was perpetuated. Some of the tech giants create their own tests to select their collaborators, usually these tests are not as good as the hrIQts, but at least they demonstrate that they understand the need for it. Although they are patching up the problem badly, at least they are trying to do something to identify young talents and engage them in relevant projects, in which they can contribute to the development of Science, Technology and the common good, so these companies do better than the government in this regard.

Jacobsen: Who seems like the greatest geniuses in history to you?

Melão Jr.: Leonardo, Newton, Aristotle, Gauss, Ramanujan, Archimedes, Euler and Einstein.

It is difficult to judge the cases of Hawking, Galois, Faraday, Al-Hazen and others, because Hawking had to face extreme hardships, it is difficult to know what the magnitude of his legacy would have been had he not fallen ill . It is possible that Hawking is one of the 5 or 10 smartest people in history, although his effective work is not one of the 100 most expressive, as it is not a fair representation of his potential, as he unfortunately did not have the opportunity to “compete” in equal conditions with other great geniuses. Galois was born in a very privileged situation culturally, intellectually and economically, but unfortunately he died very young. This does not mean that he would have produced much more if he had lived to be 90 or 100, because looking at the lives of other great mathematicians and scientists, most of the most important work they did was before the age of 25, eventually between 25 and 30. In addition, there are many cases of people who produced almost everything they could before the age of 20, then showed no advance or accumulation of production (Paul Morphy, for example, or Arthur Rubin). So Galois’ remarkable precocity does not necessarily indicate that he would have produced more than Gauss or Euler had he lived much longer. But even if he had not reached Euler’s level, it is likely that he would have left a monumental legacy. Faraday – like Edison, Leonardo and me – did not receive a formal education, which could be interpreted as a disadvantage, although perhaps it is not. Academic life can get in the way, in many cases, it is difficult to judge with certainty. To find out whether people with IQs above a certain level would have an advantage or a disadvantage studying as self-taught, it would be necessary to carry out experiments with several pairs of twins with an IQ in the desired range, in which one of each pair of twins would be forced to pursue a career in academia and education. another forced not to follow. There would be several problems in running such an experiment, because twins are rare and twins with IQs above a certain level may simply not be an example case, and the study would require a sample of at least a few dozen. Another problem is the ethical issue, of forcing a person to attend the unit and forcing another not to attend. This is especially serious in the case of monozygotic twins, because both would likely have similar preferences, and one of them would have to be “sacrificed” in this situation, forced to do something different than they would like.

At the time I got to know the high-IQ communities, there was a lot of talk about Sidis as the greatest genius in history, a genius wronged and misunderstood. There’s some truth to that, but there’s also a lot of exaggeration and distortion. Sidis is an unusual case and very difficult to judge, because his story is mixed with legends and fantasies. My first contact with Sidis’ “story” was through an article by Grady Towers in 1999, which he later modified in 2000. I now know that there was a lot of incorrect information in that text, but at the time I believed what was there, and I even considered the possibility that Sidis really was the smartest person in history. I now see Sidis as a victim of his parents, a forced prodigy with maybe 180 to 200 IQ, who could have been a good researcher and led a pleasant, productive life, but has been turned into a circus attraction. The 250-300 IQ that for years has been attributed to him appears to have been his sister’s invention, the 54 languages he was claimed to speak have been reduced to 52, then 40, then 26, and currently it appears he is considered to have perhaps spoken of fact 15 to 20 languages. The legend about him being able to learn 1 language in 1 day seems to be simply false. He didn’t get a Ph.D. Cum Laude at Harvard at 16, but rather a B.Sc., which is still an impressive accomplishment, but not quite. About 12% of Yale students graduate Cum Laude, Magna Cum Laude or Summa Cum Laude. In some years (like 1988) these percentages can increase quite a lot, reaching more than 30%. I don’t know the percentages at Harvard, but I suppose it’s not that different. So it is indeed expressive, but not as impressive as would be expected by someone with a supposed 250-300 IQ.

His sister’s tendency to exaggerate just about everything ends up increasing skepticism about which claims about him are true. The fact is that he did not leave a scientific or mathematical legacy that justifies the overestimation that is usually made of him. His ideas about black holes were preceded by more than 100 years by Laplace and Michell, his ideas about Evolution had already been better developed by Darwin and Wallace, in fact, Sidis’ approach is much more superficial than Darwin and Wallace’s. , being more similar to that of Anaximander and Aristotle. However, the question remains about the level of intellectual production that he could have reached if he had not withdrawn from academic life, or even withdrawn from academic life, but producing Science and Mathematics outside the university.

In terms of precocity, Gauss, Galois, Neumann and Pascal seem to me more remarkable than Sidis, not least because Gauss was a natural prodigy, while Sidis was a mixture of natural prodigy and forced prodigy. Galois, Pascal, Neumann were also natural and forced prodigies, but not as forced as Sidis. This pressure to which Sidis was subjected may have harmed him and provoked the outcome that this telenovela ended up having. I find it difficult to assess.

So if I had been asked this question in 2000, maybe I would have done a less critical and more superficial analysis and singled out Sidis as the greatest genius. Currently I would have doubts even if he would have a very high score in the hrIQts, maybe he would reach 190 in some tests, but in others he would not exceed 180. As far as intellectual production is concerned, the records do not show anything so extraordinary.

Jacobsen: What differentiates a genius from a deeply intelligent person?

Melão Jr.: The concept of “genius” is usually used to indicate exceptional ability in different scientific, artistic, sports, cultural areas, etc. In this context, one of the main differences would be the level of specificity, as the genius could indicate a remarkable talent in any area of activity (Music, Football, Ballet, etc.), including activities in which high-level intelligence is not required. In contrast to this, the profoundly intelligent person would have his talent exclusively linked to activities in which notability requires a very high intellectual level (physics, mathematics, literature, chess, etc.).

But this concept is inappropriate, in my opinion, because with the development of machines that outperform the best humans in different modalities, it becomes important not to mix “smart” machines with other machines. It might seem acceptable to say that Usain Bolt is a track and field genius, but it would be strange to say that a Bugatti Chiron is a genius, even though what the Chiron does exceptionally is the same as Usain Bolt does. It is therefore necessary to determine objective classification criteria that are equally applicable to all organic and inorganic entities, without discrimination, a criterion that works well and does not produce bizarre classifications. It would be unreasonable to say “ah, Chiron is a car, so criteria don’t apply to it”. That would be shallow and incorrect discrimination, because in a few decades there will be cars capable of talking about philosophy and demonstrating mathematical theorems, including hybrids that are part human and part cars, and if one of the criteria for being considered genius is “it can’t be a car”, there would be a serious inconsistency. A serious and fair criterion needs to be well planned, it cannot be a naive guess that does not contemplate possible exceptions.

Talents for intellectual modalities, when they reach a certain level of excellence (something like 5 standard deviations above average) can be considered “geniuses”, but for activities in which the intellectual level does not play an important role (Boxing, Football, Athletics etc. ), I believe that the correct term should be chosen more carefully, to avoid that non-intellectual machines are incorrectly classified as “geniuses” (a fast car being classified as a “genius” because it is fast seems to me to be an etymological error, but if this car is could perform intellectual tasks, the situation would change). In some circumstances, machines need to be recognized as geniuses, otherwise there will be serious inconsistencies in the syntax of the language, based solely on prejudice against machines. AlphaZero or MuZero, for example, in my opinion they (especially MuZero) are in a “grey zone” that is difficult to assess. MuZero can learn by himself to play Chess, Go, Shogui, Atari games, and reach very high level, superior to the best humans in the world in some of these games, which are recognized as intellectual games. So an attempt to adjust the criteria post facto, with the sole purpose of disqualifying MuZero as a genius, would seem to me to be a sign of unfair discrimination. Even because, the next generations of MuZero tend to present better and better what we understand as “general intelligence”, and at some point there will be no way to avoid recognizing that some machines also need to be classified as “intelligent”.

The question is whether MuZero would be better classified as “idiot savant” or “genius”. In my opinion, “genius” would be better, because idiot savants are usually not very creative and don’t excel in activities that require deep, sophisticated problem solving. They are very good at memorizing and repeating, whether mental calculations or playing songs, but I don’t know of any idiot savant who has excelled as a chess player or as a scientist. Perhaps it would be possible to reformulate the meanings of genius and idiot savant so that MuZero would be better classified as a savant, without compromising the essence of these meanings. A proper classification could not “push” Bobby Fischer or Kasparov into the savants group, for example. The classification would need to be careful, so as not to create inconsistencies with the sole objective of removing MuZero from the group of geniuses, nor presenting other types of arbitrariness.

In some other pursuits where there is no need for exceptional intellect, with an IQ of close to 120 being sufficient together with exceptional talent in a particular area, I believe the term “genius” should not be applicable. Mike Tyson or Usain Bolt don’t need much more than 120 IQ, and some vehicles without any trace of intelligence, who don’t think, can beat Bolt in the sport he excelled in, so excellence in that sport perhaps shouldn’t be seen as ” genius”.

In some cases it is more difficult to assess whether or not the term “genius” is applicable. Artificial Intelligence Systems like AIWA, which specializes in composing music, and does it at a very high level, in my view, shouldn’t be classified as “genius” either, in which case great human composers shouldn’t be classified as ” geniuses” based solely on their talent for songwriting. If this talent for songwriting was accompanied by an intellectual level commensurate with the intellectual criterion of genius, then the classification as “genius” would apply on that basis. The same would be true for boxers, farmers or professionals in any field, who would not be classified as “geniuses” based on their talents for their most prominent activities, but on their intelligence.

In this sense, there could be latent geniuses and effective geniuses. The latent genius would be in the intellectual potential to produce relevant contributions to expand the horizons of knowledge, revolutionize scientific paradigms, etc. While the effective genius would be the one who concretely does these things. A profoundly intelligent person, who has not made outstanding contributions, could be a latent genius, having the constant opportunity to become an effective genius, from the moment he uses his potential for scientific development, or for innovations in mathematics or science. in some important field of knowledge.

Some people consider the fundamental difference between a genius and a profoundly intelligent person to be creativity, but creativity is one of the components of intelligence. People often confuse logical reasoning (which is also one of the components of intelligence) with intelligence itself. But intelligent behavior is a broad combination of many cognitive processes, including memory and creativity.

The difference between “genius” and “deeply intelligent” is more quantitative and is associated with the proportions in which certain attributes are present. Creativity appears in the genius as a fundamental element, but not because the genius is creative and the profoundly intelligent person is not (both are), or even because the genius is always more creative (although he usually is). In the set of attributes, considering logical reasoning, creativity, working memory, long-term memory, etc., the genius has and uses this set of latent traits in solving novel problems with greater efficiency. As creativity is usually one of the most important requirements for this, it ends up being natural to associate genius with creativity.

Jacobsen: Is deep intelligence necessary for genius?

Melão Jr.: For the concept of genius I described, yes. In the previous answer I ended up answering this one.

Jacobsen: What were some work experiences and jobs you’ve had?

Melão Jr.: Since 2006 I have been working on the development of artificial intelligence systems to operate in the Financial Market. I am currently interested in solving the problem of prolonging life indefinitely, preserving memory and identity in inorganic devices that have a proper communication interface with the brain, resuscitating people, restoring severely damaged bodies, and other minor problems that are subsets of these and pre -requirements for these.

Jacobsen: Why pursue this particular work path?

Melão Jr.: The development of automatic systems to operate in the Financial Market is an intellectually challenging activity and offers a reasonably fair monetary reward, although the absence of a business network imposes many obstacles. The level of difficulty, complexity and depth of the problems that need to be solved to make consistent long-term profits from long-short trading is extremely high. There are some easy ways to earn 3% a year or a little more by practicing Index Buy & Hold or Blue Chips, where the gain is small but very easy. But if one wants to strive to earn profits close to 30% a year or above, the challenge is extraordinarily difficult and few people in the world actually manage to do so. As part of that work, I’ve made some interesting advances in Econometrics and Risk Management. In 2007, I solved a problem that had been unsatisfactorily resolved for 22 years by creating an index to measure risk-adjusted performance that was more accurate, more predictive, and conceptually better informed than traditional William Sharpe Nobel 1990) and Franco Modigliani (Nobel 1985). In 2015 I showed that the method recommended by the Nobel Prize in Economics Harry Markowitz, for portfolio optimization, has some flaws, and I proposed some improvements that make this method more efficient and safe. In 2021, I pointed out flaws in the recommendation of the 2003 Nobel Prize in Economics, Clive Granger, regarding the use of the concept of cointegration, and presented a more adequate solution for the same problem. Among other contributions in processes of optimization of genetic algorithms, ranking and selection of genotypes, pattern recognition, etc.

Jacobsen: What are some of the most important aspects of the gifted and genius idea? These myths that permeate the cultures of the world. What are these myths? What truths dispel them?

Melão Jr.: There seem to be different myths among different intellectual strata. For the majority of the population, with an IQ below 130, it seems that they think of the genius as a crazy, reclusive, antisocial, physically fragile person, and every physical and psychological flaw they can imagine, as a morbid need to push down. the person for not tolerating the fact that he excels at something and has little advantage in almost everything. Many movies, books and magazines try to reinforce this stereotype. But there are other incorrect ideas that are pervasive in other IQ bands. At the 130 to 180 level, for example, there seems to be an overestimation of results on IQ tests, without a correct understanding of the limits of the extent to which these tests produce accurate and reliable scores.

Another myth is related to the rarity level. People who have no concept of Psychometrics (almost all outside of high IQ societies) think that gifted people are very rare, something like 1 in a million or even rarer. They are also generally unaware of the difference between “gifted” and “genius”, including some who think gifted is smarter than genius.

Jacobsen: Any thoughts on the concept of God or the idea of gods and philosophy, theology and religion?

Melão Jr.: My family was Catholic. I became an atheist at age 11 after studying some religions. In a transition process that lasted a few years between the ages of 17 and 25, I ended up becoming agnostic. I became interested in the Bahá’í Faith at the age of 27 and at 28 I became a deist and wrote an article in which I present serious scientific arguments for the existence of God. I say “serious arguments” because all the pseudoscientific arguments I know of on the subject are desperate attempts to “prove” an a priori belief. It is different from an impartial analysis that leads to a conclusion that had not served as an initial motivation. I’m still a deist, I even founded my own religion, and I’m writing a book on the subject.

Jacobsen: How much does science influence your worldview?

Melão Jr.: Science is the only way we know of through which adequate models can be developed to represent sentient reality, functional models, capable of making generalizations and predictions, in which the results obtained are reasonably in accordance with the predictions, without predictions depend on luck for chance hits. Science is essential in the process of acquiring knowledge and technological development. On the other hand, it is important to understand the limitations of Science, as a body of disciplines that offers us a valuable method, but that is not immune to failures. The great differential of Science is not in the knowledge it produces, but in the method that allows it to correct itself and to do this constantly, updating itself, refining itself, expanding itself, etc., so that all the Scientific knowledge, even if it is fundamentally incorrect, has some practical use and works reasonably well within the limits set by Measurement Theory. Ptolemy’s cosmological model, for example, even though it was fundamentally wrong, allowed for very accurate predictions. Sometimes scientific theories may not structurally accurately represent natural phenomena, but even if the theoretical explanations are not the most correct, they work. Knowledge obtained through other means, such as philosophy, religion or popular culture, is generally less likely to “work”, and even when they do work, it is difficult to regulate the parameters that determine their functioning, due to the absence of an underlying theory that be organized by a mathematical model.

Jacobsen: What were some of the tests performed and scores obtained (with standard deviations) for you?

Melão Jr.: There is no simple answer to this question. In fact, among all the questions in this interview, this is perhaps the most difficult, because in addition to giving a correct answer, I need to try to be diplomatic so I don’t seem too arrogant. My girlfriend has asked me dozens of times what my IQ is, Tor has asked me this at least 5 times, and I usually shy away from the subject because it takes time to explain everything. But I’ll answer it here and when other people ask me again, I’ll provide the link to that answer, including because in previous questions and in the introductory text I commented a little about clinical trials, hrIQts, estimates and comparisons. With that, I believe it will be possible to express my opinion on this topic in a reasonably complete and accurate way in less than 50 pages, taking advantage of the previous answers as prerequisites.

I was examined for the first time at 3 years of age, and I even got to the tests for 9 years, because they were not above 9 years old for children who could not read. I don’t know what the tests are called, but the standard deviation was probably 24. There are several complex points that need to be examined about this, because the evolution of intelligence as a function of age is not linear, as in Stern’s simplified formula, the deviation default is not 24 in all age groups under 16, most very young children examined are forced prodigies that parents tried to teach a lot since they were born but it was not like that in my case, my father went out to work before When I woke up and came back after I was asleep, my mom worked most of the day, so none of them even had time to spend much time with me, let alone train me like a forced prodigy. Other points to consider are that intellectual development does not end at age 16 (nor 17 or 18 or 19), nor does it reach the limit at a fixed age for all people, nor does it remain stable when reaching a certain age. Therefore the interpretation that the mental age of 9 years to 3 years corresponds to an IQ ratio of 300 is grossly incorrect and naive. Even after converting the scale with standard deviation from 24 to 16, reaching 233, it is still incorrect. The evolution curve of intelligence as a function of age also varies from one person to another. Therefore, it is not reasonable to use tests applied in childhood as a basis to try to estimate what the adult IQ will be. There are several cases of IQs measured in childhood that prove to be very far from correct in adulthood, although some may “get it right”, as in the case of Terrence Tao, who had an IQ measured at 230 and, luckily, really had an IQ. his is close to it. In my case, it is also possible that the measured IQ came close to the correct value “luckily”, but the tests used, the method used, etc. are not appropriate.

Another detail is that I don’t know if I would continue to solve typical tasks for children over 10 years old, but it is possible that I would, but the precocity in solving typical tasks for older children says almost nothing, or says very little, about the intellectual level that will be reached in adulthood, because the skills measured do not provide useful information for this type of prognosis. The type of skill that would indicate a very high intellectual level (200+) in adulthood is not related to the same type of task that an 8, 9 or 10 year old, or even 20 year old child could perform, but with the problem solving that indicated traits of creativity and deep thinking for that age. The event in Geography class at age 9, for example, was a much more relevant indicator than the test result at age 3, not only because at age 9 he had already reached greater maturity and was closer to the potential he would have as an adult. , but also, and mainly, because the type of problem involved was more closely related to the cognitive processes needed by genius adults.

As I mentioned in the introductory text, in other answers, in some articles and in some forums, IQ tests and hrIQts have problems in construct validity, errors in the calculation of the norm, and inadequacy of the level of difficulty. I already had a very bad experience with Paul Cooijmans in 2001 and I don’t plan on wasting time on it again. Cooijmans’ Space, Time & Hyperspace (STH) proposed measuring IQ up to 207 (σ=16), although the real difficulty of the hardest questions on this test is not much higher than 170. But that’s not the main problem. STH contains several primary errors that completely invalidate the test and the norm, although many people consider it to be one of the “best” hrIQts. In 2001 I wrote to Cooijmans about this and pointed out one such mistake to him, but he refused to talk about it and did not admit his mistake. I don’t have the patience to deal with people who act like him. I’ll describe exactly what the problem is using an example:

The general wording for all STH questions was as follows:

a : b :: c : d

Meaning: “a” is to “b” as “c” is to “d”.

Given “a, b, c” determine “d”.

The statement, along with the test, can be accessed at https://web.archive.org/web/20040812113534/http://www.gliasociety.org/

Here’s a print of what’s in the link above:

Question 10 is:

The general statement says that there is a relationship from the 1st figure to the 2nd figure that must be discovered and then that same relationship must be applied to the 3rd figure to produce the 4th figure. This is the only general statement for all questions in this test, presented at the beginning of the test, and it works like this in questions 1 through 9, but not so in question 10 or 16 other questions out of the 28 that make up this test.

He wanted question 10 to discover the relationship of the 1st figure to the 3rd figure and then that same relationship to be applied to the 2nd figure to produce the 4th figure! But at no time did he ask for this in the statement. What the statement asks for is exactly what I described above. If the person answers exactly what the utterance is asking for, the person loses 1 point!

There are several other issues in STH with this same basic logic error. In this surreal situation, if the person hits all 28 questions exactly in accordance with what the test statement asks for, the person will receive only 11 correct answers and score 135 instead of 205 by the current norm, or 140 instead of 207 by the norm. old.

As Cooijmans did not agree to talk about it, I talked (at the time) with 3 other people able to give an opinion: Petri Widsten, Albert Frank and Guilherme Marques dos Santos Silva.

Petri Widsten scored highest on the Sigma Test, STH and was champion in several logic and IQ contests, including http://www.worldiqchallenge.com/rankings.html , where Petri scored nearly twice the raw score of Rick Rosner. Petri quickly agreed with me on this, even to the detriment of his own answers, because he had answered what he thought Cooijmans would like to receive as an answer, not what would be the most correct answer. Every time I think about this subject, I get stressed, because Cooijmans is a very stubborn person. I don’t think Cooijmans is stupid or dishonest; I think he’s smart and he tries to do what he believes is right, but his stubbornness is greater than his intelligence.

Albert Frank was a professor of logic and mathematics at the University of Brussels, a veteran champion of chess in Belgium. Albert also agreed with me and made some comments on Formal Logic that categorize the type of mistake made by Cooijmans.

Guilherme Marques dos Santos Silva is a member of Sigma V and was champion in the IQ contest “Ludomind International Contest IV”, he also agreed with me and “gave up” to finish doing the STH after he saw this absurd error. He said there were few questions left to finish, but due to the serious bias in the correction, he had no interest in proceeding.

In addition to the people I talked to back then, I also recently talked to Tianxi Yu about this kind of issue. Yu scores 196, σ=15 on Death Numbers, which is considered a serious test with a deflated norm. He commented that he has already found bugs in several tests, and he has posted an extensive and detailed public critique of this in a group, citing the various types of bugs that bother him. There are several points where I disagree with Yu’s opinions, but in terms of testing, our opinions are very similar.

As soon as I had my first contact with high IQ societies and discovered Miyaguchi’s website (1999), I became interested in taking the Power Test, which I consider one of the best in terms of construct validity and with an adequate level of difficulty. At the time I was 27 years old and with a different opinion than I do now, I had three goals with the Power Test: one was fun, another was to beat Rick Rosner’s IQ~193 record, and the third was to get into Mega Society. At that time, the standard calculated by Garth Zietsman for the Power Test was used, with a ceiling of 197, but before I finished solving all the questions, the Power Test was no longer accepted in Mega Society and the ceiling was “revised” to 180. So I completely lost interest.

Garth Zietsman is a competent statistician and the norm he calculated , probably using Item Response Theory, is consistent and very well grounded. If the same items used in Mega, Titan, and Ultra were in Power, then the individual difficulties of those items were maintained and determined the norm for Power. So when the Power Test ceiling was changed to 180, it was a mistake. The more than 4,000 applications of Meta, Titan and Ultra, which served as the basis for the norm calculated by Zietsman, were simply disregarded, and a new norm was calculated based on a few dozen people. The correct procedure would be to add the new data (about the results of each item answered by the people examined with the Power) to the item bank that contained the Mega, Titan and Ultra questions, recalibrate the parameters of difficulty, discriminating power and casual accuracy (if applicable) of each item, then review the norms of the 4 Hoeflin tests that shared those items. Thus, the difficulty levels would be preserved equally in all tests, maintaining a unified scale.

But the way it was done, the Power norm was skewed downwards relative to the other three Hoeflin tests. To better clarify the problem, I will cite an example: in the Power Test the question about the Moebius tape is being treated statistically as if it had parameter b = +2.81, that is, 50% of people with IQ 145 (σ=16) should get this issue right. However, the same question about the Moebius tape, when applied in another of the Hoeflin tests, is being treated statistically as if it had a parameter b = 3.88, that is, 50% of people with IQ 162 (σ=16) must get this right. question. This is a serious inconsistency, because either the question has a difficulty of 2.81 on all tests in which it is used, or 3.88 on all tests. The question cannot have difficulty 3.88 on some tests and 2.81 on others. Zietsman’s norming is consistent in this regard, so the Power roof produces a norm on the same scale as the Mega, Titan, and Ultra norms.

One of the reasons that caused this reduction in the Power ceiling is because some people had already taken one or more of the other Hoeflin tests in which the Power items were present, so the probability of hitting those items on the second try was higher, increasing even more on the third and fourth attempts. But the correct way to deal with this would be to adjust all the norms of all the tests that contained those items, depending on the number of times those items had already been solved by the person examined, with norms customized for each person, or based on how many and which of the three other tests the person had already solved (an equation for this could easily be determined using cluster analysis, for example).

It could also simply look at the scores of people who had taken more than one test (or the same test more than once) and the effect that had on the probability of getting each repeated item right on the second, third, or fourth test that contained the same item. While this global adjustment to the itemset was not as accurate and refined as analyzing this effect on each individual item, as I suggested above, this would already help to improve the norms across all 4 tests, rather than distorting the Power norm in relative to everyone else.

Anyway, there is a worrying amount of errors in the hrIQts, both in the calculations of the norms and in the answers accepted as correct, among other problems. That’s why Sigma Test has always adopted a policy of transparency, being open to debates, if the person had a score above 180 in any test and they believed that some of their answers were right and they thought they received an incorrect evaluation, they could contest the correction of a question she chose. If she was right, she could challenge the correction of one more question, and so on, until her challenge was unfounded. The Moon Test and Sigma Test Extended have a similar transparency policy, but the minimum score on other tests to have this right to challenge is 190 on both the Moon Test and Sigma Test Extended. This allows reviewing any errors, as well as allowing the person being examined the opportunity to defend what they believe is right, in the event that they feel they deserved more points than they received. In my opinion, all tests should adopt a similar policy.

If there were any tests with appropriate characteristics, I would consider doing another test, even though I am older and dumber. Basically it should be a test with good construct validity at the highest levels, appropriate ceiling, and appropriate difficulty. In addition, it should have a formal “grievance” system that allows contesting the result. Without that, I see no reason to waste time on these things. An hrIQt can easily take up to 50 hours and if it’s a really hard test, with the right level of difficulty, it can take over 500 hours. It is time that could be spent on more interesting and productive activities. So unless the test brings together a number of notable virtues that justify the effort, I wouldn’t be interested. In fact, there is a test that, in my opinion, meets these requirements, but I cannot solve it because I am the author. This reminds me of a topic that was discussed a few weeks ago in a group:

In fact, some problems I’ve already solved are more difficult than the more difficult problems in Sigma Test Extended. So there are some useful clues in that.

Some people have already estimated my IQ and made some comparisons. In 2004, Pars Society founder (IQ>180), Baran Yonter, estimated my IQ to be over 200 (σ=16, G), this is equivalent to over 240 pIQ (σ=16, T). I thought he was being nice, but in 2005, when I was nominated for the production of the Globo TV show “Fantástico” as the smartest person in Brazil, I discovered that other people had similar opinions to Baran about me. I was flattered by the nominations, but I don’t know if I’m really the smartest person in Brazil and I told the journalist that, but he insisted, and as I had been the most nominated, and also for the sake of vanity, I ended up accepting to do the article, whose video is available on my page and my channel.

It is necessary to make an important caveat regarding the correct determination of the most intelligent person in Brazil, because there is a Brazilian who won a Fields medal (Artur Ávila) and there is a Brazilian who made fundamental contributions to the development of paraconsistent logics (Newton da Costa), both are very smart people, but with different profiles than mine, so it would be difficult to make a proper comparison to know for sure who is the smartest in Brazil, because each of them is deeply specialized in a very specific area, while my talents and achievements span a wide variety of different areas. As a result of greater specialization, the level of depth they have reached is greater, but this greater depth does not reflect greater depth of reasoning, but greater depth of knowledge. Also, I only studied until the 11th grade, while they did PhDs and postdocs with excellent advisors, which puts me in a “running with legs tied” situation compared to people who run on horseback. The people who worked on the same problems I worked on were equipped with more sophisticated mathematical tools, access to much more powerful computers, access to a vast, high-quality bibliography, received much more prolonged, intensive formal training under the guidance of experienced scientists, while all my “training” was self-administered, with virtually no bibliographic resources and modest computational resources. I often had to create my own statistical tools before using them to solve problems, and later I found that there were ready-made tools for the same purposes. During the development of my system to operate in the Financial Market, situations like this were repeated many times.

A detail that is important to clarify: I commented (in the appendix) that the average quality of education in Brazil is terrible, so what would be my disadvantage for not having attended this terrible environment? And the answer is simple: many of the best Brazilian academics will study at the best research centers and universities in Europe, the USA, Canada, Australia, Japan, etc. Also, there are a few really good researchers in Brazil, and when a young talent receives guidance from a first-rate researcher, it makes a huge difference. So there is a substantial advantage in Artur and Newton da Costa’s opportunities compared to my situation, because they had access to many more resources, in addition to the advantages in mentoring and training.

As for other people who have worked on the same problems as me, and I solved those problems before them or better than them or both, almost all of them are from other countries: Nick Trefethen is Head of Dep. in Numerical Calculus at Oxford University and collects some international Mathematics prizes (Leslie Fox Prize 1985, FRS Prize 2005, IMA Gold Medal 2010), Susumu Tachi is Professor Emeritus at the University of Tokyo and Guest Professor at MIT, Stefan Steinerberger is Professor of Mathematics at Yale, William Sharpe is a professor at the University of California and a Nobel Prize in Economics in 1990, Franco Modigliani is a Professor at the University of Rome and a Nobel Prize in Economics in 1985, Clive Granger was a professor at the University of Nottingham and a Nobel Prize in Economics in 2003, among others. So the people who worked on some of the problems that I solved constitute a “heavy competition”, in addition to having access to more resources, more advisors, etc. relevant before them, perhaps represents some merit to me, I have no false modesty in admitting it.

The fact is that the correct determination of the smartest person in a country is not something so simple, it is not a game of egos and vanities. There needs to be a real basis for this. For example, I think Petri Widsten has excellent chances of being the smartest person in Finland, not only because of his excellent result in the Sigma Test, but also because his doctoral thesis, besides being very innovative, was awarded as the best thesis. of the country in the 2002-2003 biennium and he won several logic contests. The aggregate of these results, and other minor details such as him being fluent in more than 10 languages, suggest a real intellectual level with rarity above 1 in 5 million, which is the population of Finland. However, there are other very smart people in Finland, like Rauno Lindström or Bengt Holmström. Although Finland is a culturally more homogeneous country, so that there is not as great a difference in opportunities as in my case, even so, the comparison is still difficult, so it would not be wise to categorically state that a certain person (Petri or Rauno or another) is the smartest in Finland. The most appropriate would be to assign a probability to each one. Petri would have around a 95% probability of being the smartest person in Finland, Maybe Rauno 2%, Bengt 1% and someone among other people 5 million people 2%. In the case of Brazil, my advantage would be much smaller than Petri’s in relation to the other strong candidates.

In 2005, friend Alexandre Prata Maluf, a member of Sigma V, Pars Society and OlympIQ Society, estimated that my IQ should be similar or slightly above that of Marilyn Vos Savant. I think he meant it as a compliment, because Marilyn is an icon in high-IQ societies, but I didn’t like the comparison, because it’s not a fair comparison. The real-world problems I’ve solved are much more difficult than the problems she’s solved. I don’t exclude the possibility that she might have an IQ similar to mine, but she would need to prove it with concrete results, solving problems with a compatible degree of difficulty.

I recently learned that in 2018, in a private group, my name had been mentioned in a post titled “Name the top 5 people (alive) with the highest measured IQs in the world today! Name, IQ and Test.” I found it surprising that I was quoted, because since 2006 I had been away from high IQ societies and only returned a few months ago, in February 2022, yet Rasmus Waldna from Sweden very kindly remembered me and suggested my name, and his nomination received more likes than the names of Terence Tao, Chris Hirata, Rick Rosner, Marilyn and Langan. The names of friends Tor and Iakovos were also indicated. I understand that it was an informal topic, and people’s positive reactions may have been influenced by factors extrinsic to intellectual capacity, some people may have liked it out of sympathy, for example, or because they like my hair, but I was still happy with the memory and recognition, and also happy to see some friends on this list.

In 2001, David Spencer compared me to Leonardo Da Vinci and Pascal. In 2016 my friend Joao Antonio LJ compared me to Newton and Galileo, and the way he wrote and the context in which it was said, I found it a touching and sincere compliment. In 2017, I was again compared to Leonardo (by Aurius). In 2020, Empiricus magazine published an article by Bruno Mérola on risk management, in which the author compared my Melao Index with the Sharpe index (1990 Nobel), and in the analysis he did, he presented facts and arguments demonstrating that my index is higher than the Sharpe index. In fact, my index is also superior to that of Modigliani (Nobel 1985), Sortino and all the others, but in the article he only mentioned the Sharpe index because it is the most used in the world, because it is more traditional and better known, and cited mine for being the most efficient. In 2021 I was compared to Feynman and again to Leonardo, in an interesting situation, where the person (Francisco) did a reasonably detailed analysis of the comparison to justify his opinion. In 2021, I was again cited as possibly the smartest person in Brazil by Luca Fujii, one of the greatest precocious talents in Brazilian Mathematics, but as he is still very young, he has not yet manifested all his intellectual brilliance and that is why he is not yet so famous, but it will be soon. Luca is a person with many moral virtues, as well as intellectual ones, just like Joao Antonio LJ, so I feel really honored that these people have high opinions about me, and also because I know they don’t say that just to please me, but based on deep criteria, very well-founded and well-considered criteria. Joao has read over 1000 of my articles, Luca has read my two books and has surely read hundreds of my articles. So, in addition to being exceptionally skilled, they were also knowledgeable about what they were talking about.

Anyway, I think the real world problems I’ve solved, the people who have tried to solve the same problems and the awards these people have won and other problems they’ve solved, the opinions of some exponents of high IQ societies about me maybe answer a little about my IQ, certainly more and better than a standardized test could tell.

Jacobsen: What ethical philosophy makes any sense, even the most viable sense to you?

Melão Jr.: I know of no author who represents my views on any subject sufficiently accurately and completely. There are always details where disagreements occur. In my book on the existence of God, one of the chapters deals with Ethics, in which I set out my views on this. There are some articles in which I discuss issues related to Ethics, this is one of them: https://www.saturnov.org/liberdadeedireitos

Jacobsen: What political philosophy makes any sense, even the most viable sense to you?

Melão Jr.: There is a Polish proverb that says “In capitalism, man betrays man. In socialism, the opposite occurs. In theory, almost all political systems try to be reasonably good, with different priorities, but each aiming, in its own way, at noble and lofty goals, although utopian and superficial in basic points, so when they are implemented in practice, it becomes clear that human vicissitudes corrupt any system, because theoretical systems do not make adequate predictions about how to deal with real humans. I believe that in the not too distant future, if we do not destroy each other by war, the political leadership of the planet will be “in the hands” of intelligent machines, and there will be a system much more logical and fair than any system that currently exists. It will be far from a perfect system, but it will be vastly superior to anything we know of, as these systems will be able to analyze much more complex and profound interactions of human relationships between large groups and how those relationships evolve over the long term in much the same way. that the best chess programs far surpass the quality of analysis of humans, “seeing” much more accurately and deeper and making more accurate predictions than any human. The problem is that there is a high risk that we will be enslaved by machines, or something, or there will be a symbiotic union between humans and machines, or parasitic, it is difficult to predict, it will depend on some decisions we make in the coming years and decades.

Jacobsen: What metaphysics makes any sense to you, even the most viable sense to you?

Melão Jr.: The theory of the multiverse is on the threshold between Physics and Metaphysics. The word “multiverse” is an inadequate construction, but the meaning is plausible and even probable.

Jacobsen: What comprehensive philosophical system of worldview makes any sense, even the most viable sense to you?

Melão Jr.: What I describe in the book I cited above, in which I present arguments that seem conclusive about the existence of God, and I address other philosophical and scientific topics.

Jacobsen: What gives you meaning in life?

Melão Jr.: I don’t think there needs to be something that gives meaning to life beyond itself. Life has an intrinsic meaning. But I can say that protecting my mother and providing the best possible for her was something that gave me joy. She passed away in 2016. I didn’t eat properly and didn’t sleep properly for a few months. I had already researched cryogenics and knew that this technology does not offer realistic prospects of bringing a person back to life, because the membranes of trillions of cells are ruptured in heat shock, leaving the cytoplasm to leak out, a process that is unlikely to be reversed. I started to think of a way to resuscitate her, but I find it very difficult that the resurrected person could have restored the exact same personality and memories, so it wouldn’t be the same person. If her memories and personality had been stored entirely on an HDD or SSD, or some device with similar properties, then perhaps it would be possible to restore the same person, in a genuine process of resuscitation. The joy of living was gone with her death. In 2018 I met my girlfriend Tamara who has been living with me ever since and I can say she has been my joy of living, my life would be very small and discolored if it wasn’t for her. It is an honor for the human species that there are people deeply committed to doing what is right and fair, like her, who elevate human dignity to a level close to perfection.

Jacobsen: Is meaning externally derived, internally generated, both, or something else?

Melão Jr.: In deduction the meaning is attributed, ultimately, arbitrarily. One determines what a triangle is and that will be a triangle. In finite induction, meaning is inferred from the analysis of the amplitude of variation of properties observed in entities of the same class compared to the dispersion of the same properties observed in entities of different classes.

The evolution of the concept of “planet”, for example, illustrates well how this happens. The Greeks classified the Moon, Sun, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn as planets. Not all Greeks, actually. Aristarchus, Seleucus, Ecphantus (assuming that Ecphantus actually existed) and Philolaus did not adopt the same criteria. With Copernicus, the Sun was no longer considered a planet, while the Earth was classified as a planet, because the criterion of the Greeks was that the planets moved. When Uranus was discovered in 1781, it also came to be classified as a planet, because its general properties fit this class of objects better, and the same happened when Ceres was discovered in 1801. However, shortly afterward, Pallas was discovered, Vesta, Juno and other objects with orbits very similar to those of Ceres, all much smaller than the other planets and sharing almost the same orbit. Within a few years there were more than 10 objects with these characteristics , which led to reconsidering whether the criteria used to classify planets were appropriate. Then came the concept of “planetoid” later modified to “asteroid” to include this class of objects. At the time Pluto (1930) was discovered, as it was far outside the asteroid zone and its size was originally estimated to be similar to that of Earth, it was classified as a planet. In a few years it was found to be much smaller than previously thought. The first estimates from 1931 assigned Pluto 13,100 km in diameter, then 6084.8 km, then 5760 km, then 3000 km, 2700 km, 2548 km, 2300 km, 2390 km and the latest data indicate about 2376.6 km . So, at the time it was discovered, it was plausible that it was classified as a “planet”, but when it was found that it was much smaller and less massive, the situation changed. This issue is discussed in more detail in my book on the subject. When other trans-Neptunian objects were discovered, it started to be considered that perhaps Pluto would be better classified as one of those objects, rather than being considered a planet. The terrestrial planets (Mercury, Venus, Earth and Mars) had a rocky surface, average density approximately between 4 and 5.5 times that of water, diameter approximately between 5,000 and 13,000 km, while Jovian planets (Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune) they had a fluid “surface”, average density approximately between 0.7 and 1.7 times that of water, diameter approximately between 50,000 and 140,000 km. But Pluto was far outside these two groups, its density 1.9 was similar to that of the Jovians, but its size was smaller than that of the tellurics. It was not known if the surface was rocky, but in principle it was believed that it was. When Eris was discovered – whose mass is similar to Pluto and maybe a little larger – they finally decided to promote a debate about it and reconsider the criteria for classifying planets. In 2006, the IAU decided to create a new class of objects, the “dwarf planets”, and Pluto entered that category.

I skipped some important events, such as Galileo and Simons’ discovery of the 4 large satellites of Jupiter, which were initially considered “planets” because the concept of a “satellite” didn’t exist until Kepler suggested it. Galileo sometimes referred to these objects as “small stars”, as it was not really known what stars were, although Giordano Bruno already had a promising hunch.

The meaning of “planet” was and continues to be determined by comparison with other objects that show different levels of similarity. In cases where there are large numbers of objects to compare, such as the taxonomy of animals, classifications can be made at many hierarchical levels, with different levels of similarity, and meanings are assigned according to properties common to all elements. of the same class, while trying to select criteria that allow distinguishing from elements of other classes. In classifications of dogs and cats, for example, it is not useful to consider the fact that they have 2 eyes, a tail and a snout, because this does not help to distinguish one species from the other. Average size would help if the size spread were narrower, but as different dog breeds vary over a very wide range, this criterion wouldn’t help much either. In these cases, more subtle and specific criteria, such as facial morphology, tooth morphology and number of teeth, turn out to be more useful. The size of the snout can help, but the number of teeth has a similar meaning, as it is related to the size of the snout, with the advantage of being more objective and quantitative.

Anyway, these are the two main ways of determining meanings. One is arbitrary, it allows one to impose what characteristics the entity must have. The other tries to discover which characteristics are common to all entities of the same class and, at the same time, are different from the characteristics of entities of similar classes, in order to make it possible to distinguish between entities of one class or another. These meanings are often incomplete, uncertain and subject to revision as new discoveries are made about other entities whose characteristics are borderline in a given class, leading to broadening, narrowing or reconfiguring the criteria to include or exclude the new entity in one of the classes. known, or, more rarely, create a new class inaugurated by that entity.

Jacobsen: Do you believe in life after death? If yes, why and in what way? If not, why not?

Melão Jr.: The concept of “death” is a disconnection, which for now we don’t know how to reconnect, but soon it will be possible in different ways. This is one of the topics analyzed in more detail in my book. The concept of “soul” also needs to be examined in detail to answer this, and the size of the answer would be immense.

Jacobsen: What do you think of the mystery and transience of life?

Melão Jr.: I don’t think it’s transitory. It has been for now, but that should soon change.

Jacobsen: What is love to you?

Melão Jr.: It is a desperate attempt to invent a word to represent an indescribable feeling.

Appendix: Educational System in Brazil and Richard Lynn’s study on IQs in different countries

The education system is usually bad all over the world, but in Brazil it is much worse than the average of countries with similar GDPs. I estimate that Brazilian education is one of the worst in the world. University of Ulster Professor Emeritus Richard Lynn offers a simplistic explanation for this in his article “IQ and Wealth of Nations”. It does not deal with Education. It deals with Economics, but the argument he uses to justify differences in income would be equally (and better) applied to Education, as long as the argument is valid. But the argument starts from a false premise. There are many errors in Lynn’s work. The central idea he defends is right, but quantitatively he forces exaggerated results. The thesis he defends – that there are ethnic and regional differences – is correct, but the differences are not as big as he wants to make it out to be. According to Lynn, the average IQ in Equatorial Guinea is 56. If this were right, the country would be expected to be a large tribe of nomads, they would not have mastered the technique of producing fire, they would not have built plows, spears, etc. But there is an urban civilization there. In addition, people with an IQ below 60 have a hard time learning to read and write, even though they live in countries with extensive infrastructure and literacy incentives. If more than 91% of the population of Equatorial Guinea can read (assuming this information is not made up), even in an environment with less incentive to learn, it would be very difficult to explain how this population with an average IQ of 56 is predominantly literate. Lynn tries to spread his neo-Nazi beliefs and uses this scientific research to try to gain credibility for his views. The average IQ of Ashkenazi Jews is around 114, the highest average in the world, but Lynn was able to manipulate the data from her meta-analysis so that the average IQ for the state of Israel was 94.

In the case of Brazil, Lynn’s results indicated an average IQ of 87 and, in a more recent review, they indicate 83.38. If this were correct, it would be a good explanation for the low quality of Brazilian scientific production and the terrible quality of teaching. But the real problems that predominate in Brazil are a combination of student laziness, teacher laziness, low leveling in classes and bad “pedagogical” methodology.

A more serious analysis of the situation shows that the average Brazilian’s real IQ is not as low as Lynn’s studies suggest. Many people turn in IQ quizzes without answering, or they “guess” all the alternatives, or they answer some and “kick” the others.

In a post of mine on the profile of our friend Iakovos Koukas, I made a reasonably detailed comment about this, which I also reproduced in the IQ Olympiad group and reproduced here again:

There are indeed cognitive differences based on ethnicity, just as there are in relation to average height, average penis size, average concentration of melanin under the skin, etc., but the cognitive differences are much smaller than what he tries to “sell”.

On the one hand, there is the problem of naive egalism, defended by some pseudo-ideological groups, and this finds no support in the facts. At the opposite extreme, there are groups of people like Richard Lynn, Tatu Vanhanen and Charles Murray who try to exacerbate racial differences and use them to justify the misery of some peoples. Both the radical eugenicists and the radical egalitarians are wrong, but between one extreme and the other there are some truths.

Just as there are marked cognitive differences between species, there are differences between ethnicities, but less marked because the range of genetic variation within the same species is smaller. Pretending that these differences do not exist is a mistake, because the correct knowledge about the particularities of each ethnicity helps to make more accurate diagnoses of several diseases whose symptoms are not the same in all ethnic groups, the adequate time of exposure to the Sun for the synthesis of vitamin D is not the same, and many characteristics that would be interpreted as “healthy” in some ethnicities are not in others, so the correct use of this information helps to more effectively interpret the results of blood counts, analyze bone, dermatological and other anomalies. muscle. Knowing the physiological, cognitive and behavioral differences of each ethnicity is important; the problem is to use these differences for the purpose of tyrannizing, oppressing or diminishing the merits of a people, this is unethical and unscientific, and Lynn ostensibly tries to do this.

In the case of Brazil, there seems to be a distortion close to 10 to 15 points in the numbers presented by Lynn, so the correct average Brazilian IQ should be around 95, a little below average, but not so much as to justify the bad results. of Brazil in Science. The real problems seem to be laziness and other items I mentioned above. There are recent studies that question whether apparently lazy behavior should be classified exactly as “laziness” or not, but I won’t go into that discussion either so as not to make this text even longer.

In the 1950s and 1960s, Richard Feynman was in Brazil a few times and made severe criticisms of the Brazilian education system, he did some impromptu social experiments and showed that Brazilian doctoral students often did not understand the basics of what they were doing, they acted mechanically , without the slightest idea about the fundamentals. Brazilians wrote some nice words in relation to Feynman’s criticism, saying that they intended to improve something, but the current situation is perhaps even worse than it was when Feynman was in our country. In addition to the shameful situation of education in Brazil, there are still other problems in this episode, because Brazilian “educators” showed surprise and perplexity with the problems pointed out by Feynman, as if they were in a house on fire, but they were not seeing that the fire was devouring. everything, until a neighbor comes in and shows them the fire. So they thank you, look shocked, make a speech of mea culpa, but do nothing concrete about the fire, which is still devastating … It ‘s unbelievable that they weren’t seeing the fire before the neighbor pointed it out to them and unbelievable that they continue without taking any action after the problem was pointed out.

Although scientists and educators have not mobilized to try to solve the problem, some Brazilian exponents of Mathematics, who had some experiences in Europe and the United States, decided to try to reproduce a small oasis, bringing to Brazil some of what they had experienced in developed countries. In 1952, IMPA (Institute of Pure and Applied Mathematics) was founded. At that time, Brazil was in Group I of the IMU (International Mathematical Union), the lowest level. For 70 years, IMPA has been the only place in Brazil where there has been a sincere attempt to identify and support some outstanding talent, trying to escape the bureaucracy and inefficiency of the Educational System. But IMPA is only 1 institution located in Rio de Janeiro. Brazil is a large country, with 8,500,000 km^2, so people who live far from RJ are often unable to enjoy what IMPA offers. Therefore, IMPA’s reach is still small. With the popularization of the Internet, this has improved, but the number of beneficiaries is still very limited, including because there is relatively little publicity about IMPA events, most schools do not enroll their students in OBM (Brazilian Mathematics Olympiad), most of the students do not even know that OBM exists. There are some professors spread across Brazil linked to IMPA, who try to contribute to the identification of talents, but it is a difficult process, they do not receive incentives from the government or companies. Even with these obstacles, between 1952 and 2015 IMPA raised Brazil from Group 1 to Group 5 (the highest), which only 11 countries are part of: Germany, Brazil, Canada, China, USA, France, Israel, Italy , Japan, UK and Russia.

I don’t know what the criteria for being included in Group 5 of the UMC are, but I suppose it’s a combination of merit and politics, perhaps more merit than politics. I say that there is a bit of politics because there are countries with two Fields medals or two Abel awards, but they are not part of this group, such as Australia, Belgium, Iran and Sweden, while Brazil has only 1 Fields medal. Of course, these awards should not be the only criterion, but they are very reasonable indications of the cream of mathematics produced in each country. There are also several countries with 1 Fields medal and a longer mathematical tradition, which are also not in Group 5. Perhaps the criterion takes into account the pace of growth, and in this regard Brazil is perhaps, along with China and India, one of the fastest growing in the production of high-level Mathematics.

The fact is that if the average Brazilian IQ were really as low as Richard Lynn claims, and the main problem in Brazil was really the low average IQ of the population, then IMPA actions would not have been able to substantially modify the quality and quantity. of high-level mathematical production. If the problem were low IQ, the solution would come from other actions, such as nutritional improvements, for example. IMPA actions did not change the average IQ of the population; they only changed the efficiency in the identification of talents that already existed in the country, and after the identification, opportunities and incentives began to be offered to these talents.

The numbers pointed out by Lynn, that the average Brazilian IQ would be 87, are inconsistent with the results achieved by IMPA. Even with a population of 213 million, it would be difficult for some of these people to reach the world top with rarity close to 1 in 300 million if Brazil was 1 standard deviation below the average, even because IMPA cannot extend its benefits to more than 1% to 5% of the most talented population. Of course, other hypotheses would apply, such as a higher standard deviation in the IQ distribution among the Brazilian population or a more platykurtic distribution. But generally what you see in groups with a smaller mean height is a narrower rather than a wider standard deviation. This happens with virtually all variables. The standard deviation in diameter for larger screws is wider than for smaller screws. In other words, the percentage standard deviation is usually maintained, so it would be strange for a population with a lower IQ to have a higher standard deviation. Furthermore, it would be an ad hoc adjustment to try to salvage a theory that has other problems, making it more plausible to pass Occam’s razor and accept that Lynn is wrong about this. The average Brazilian’s correct IQ is substantially higher than he says, just like the IQs of most other non-Aryan peoples he tries to push down are also higher than the numbers he presents.

Examining the facts objectively, what the data suggests is that the average Brazilian IQ is probably much closer to 95 than to 87. A little below average, but not as low as Lynn suggests.

The IMPA results also show that perhaps laziness is a reflection of the poor education system. If laziness were a widespread problem in the country, the solutions implemented by IMPA would not have been enough to solve it either; other complementary measures would be necessary. Perhaps laziness is a striking problem that affects more than 99% of the population, but about 1% could not be labeled as “lazy”, but as a victim of a very bad education system. As more than 99% of intellectual production comes from that 1%, we have a huge problem there, and a complete lack of attention to this problem, because politicians are not very concerned about making great efforts to win 1% of votes, since with less effort they can get more votes by pretending to please a less demanding, easier to deceive and much more numerous audience.

One of the big problems is that the 99% of the population are also harmed, but they don’t see this themselves and don’t demand from the government measures that can contribute to long-term improvements, measures that are good and fair for all. Each just wants the government to adopt measures with immediate results that benefit their own navels. In this way, the problem tends to perpetuate itself, as it has for decades.

Many Brazilian academics often complain about the lack of funds and attribute the low scientific production to this. Others do worse, pretending that there is good quality scientific production in Brazil, despite the lack of funds. But what the concrete facts show is that really very poor countries, in which most of the population lives in poverty, such as Ethiopia, Nigeria, Congo, Kenya, Ghana, etc. had citizens Nobel laureates, while in Brazil there has never been a Nobel laureate. Furthermore, when Einstein developed his major works, for which he deserved 3 Nobel prizes (and 2 more for later works), he was not receiving any funding for his research, not even in previous years. Therefore, although the lack of resources imposes severe limitations, it cannot be considered an absolute impediment, much less be used as a pretext in a situation like this. Great works were carried out practically without money, as was much of Newton’s work during 1665.

[Here, perhaps, a small caveat fits, because as I mentioned in the part about awards and merits, it is possible that some Brazilians have performed works with merit to receive a Nobel, but were not laureates for political, bureaucratic reasons, etc. My work on Econometrics and Risk Management, for example, is more expressive than most of the work of Nobel laureates in Economics in recent decades. The discovery of the π meson, although predominantly an operational work, had a Brazilian as the protagonist (César Lattes), but as the team leader was Celil Powell, Lattes only had a B.Sc. and at the time (1950) the award was only given to the head of the team, Lattes ended up not receiving the award, although he was perhaps primarily responsible for this work and was the main author of the article. After the detection of π mesons in cosmic rays (1947), Lattes was one of the few in the world with the necessary knowledge to identify the signatures left by these particles on the emulsion plates, so he was invited to collaborate at CERN (1948) and verify if they were also able to produce π mesons, as the energy needed for this was easily exceeded by the particle accelerator used, so they were probably already producing pions for a long time (since 1946), but they didn’t know exactly what to look for in the chambers bubble as being signatures of the π mesons. Lattes went to CERN and made the identifications. Again the work was distinguished with the Nobel and again Lattes was excluded from the award. In all, Lattes was nominated 7 times for the Nobel, but was never awarded. Oswaldo Cruz was also nominated for the Nobel Prize in Medicine, but was not awarded. Perhaps Machado de Assis would also have merit for a Nobel Prize in Literature. So, although there are 0 Brazilian Nobel laureates, maybe some have merit for that. There is a detailed text in which I analyze the case of Lattes, without the usual exaggerations and nationalist distortions of most articles about him, but at the same time acknowledging the merits he had that were not properly recognized.]

On the one hand, the low scientific production reflects the lack of funds, on the other hand, the lack of funds reflects the low scientific production, because if there really was scientific and technological production of good quality, large national and international companies would be interested in funding this research. , as they would profit from it. If private companies do not invest in Brazilian science, it is because such “investment” does not generate an expectation of profit, because the level of production is below what could justify some serious interest from entrepreneurs. I usually use the term “donation” for Brazilian science instead of “Investment”, because the meaning of “investment” is different. What Brazilian researchers demand is basically this: donation.

It is important to make it clear that I am not against funding Brazilian science, whether in the form of investment or donation. If I were against it, it would be stupid. I am against the bad management of the budget allocated to Science, combined with the terrible educational system and the complete lack of incentive for intellectual production. Intellectual production is not writing 50,000 useless papers to pretend that it is being produced and continue “sucking” on the grants of “research” funding agencies. Real intellectual production is serious effort to solve real and important problems. Therefore, instead of whining about lack of funds, the correct procedure would be a complete reformulation of the clowning that takes place in Brazilian Education and in Brazilian “scientific” research, they would need to start producing real, with high quality, as happens at IMPA , and then present substantial facts and consistent arguments to claim investments. Without it, the tearful speech to ask for donation is fragile. Certainly a crowd of unproductive researchers will stone me for this comment, but the few serious researchers will agree with me, although they may not have the courage to publicly acknowledge the position they defend, lest they be lynched by their colleagues.

Perhaps there are less than 1% of serious researchers in Brazil, among which I had the opportunity to meet some, such as Renato P. dos Santos, Roberto Venegeroles, André Gambaro, José Paulo Dieguez, Luis Anunciação, Antonio Piza, André Asevedo Nepomuceno, Herbert Kimura, Cristóvão Jacques, George Matsas, Doris Fontes among others. But unfortunately they represent a small fraction, and they do not always openly admit the disastrous situation in which Brazilian science finds itself, because the pressure is great for them to pretend to believe in the staging of which most of the others are part. When the person takes a fair position on this and tells forbidden truths, he begins to be cowardly boycotted on all sides, so it is understandable that many prefer to remain silent, avoiding manifesting, or simply pretending to agree with the fantasy. that try to propagate the situation of Science and Education in Brazil. Many criticized Copernicus because of the preface to his book Revolutionibus, for not having faced the dominant beliefs openly, but when analyzing the problems faced by Galileo, it is clear that the defense of the truth that goes against the interests of certain groups can be very onerous . And it would be naive to believe that the entities that dominate the world today (media, companies, universities, politicians, etc.) are more scrupulous than the medieval ecclesiastics were. There are certainly some entities that are more reputable and more sincerely committed to defending what is right and fair, but they are exceptions, unfortunately. “Ironically” the same people who are outraged by the persecution of Galileo are the people who today practice the same type of abuse, injustice and persecution.

This is a delicate situation, because if the immense majority builds a hoax and pretends that it is real, it becomes difficult for a small minority to restore the truth. For example: Roberto de Andrade Martins is a serious researcher, with post-docs in Cambridge and Oxford, with good knowledge and good understanding of Physics, Logic and Epistemology. He is completely rejected by his colleagues and by those who call themselves “scientific” disseminators, because Roberto tells undesirable truths. Roberto has never been invited to the major channels of scientific dissemination in Brazil, although he is by far more qualified than the overwhelming majority of those invited to these channels. This happens because in these channels, the most “commercial”, more “charismatic” figures are preferred in the eyes of those who pretend to be interested in Science, instead of serious scientists who tell forbidden truths about the tragic reality of science in the country and education in the country. country. YouTubers who call themselves “scientific promoters” in Brazil have to choose between truth and popularity, and almost always prefer the second option. In this way, they are dragging a farce that at some point will cause the country’s collapse, as happened with the former USSR in 1991, or with the Lehman Brothers bank in 2008. They were sweeping the dirt under the rug, until a point where the situation became untenable and the shack collapsed. There are a few serious scientific disseminators in Brazil, but these generally reach a much smaller, more enlightened audience that already sees the problem without it being necessary for someone to show them. The public that would really need to be informed remains “armored”, to serve no one’s interests, since no one will profit from the sinking of the nation. Chomsky once declared that “the purpose of the media is not to report what happens, but to shape public opinion in accordance with the will of the dominant corporate power.” In this case it is worse, because they are not shaping public opinion according to anyone’s will. They are just acting stupidly for everyone’s harm.

Hypocrisy is another terrible problem that affects a large number of Brazilian academics and pseudo science disseminators. When a foreigner comes to Brazil and says that Brazilian science is a joke, as Feynman did, he stomps and spits on Brazilian science, Brazilian academics certainly don’t like it, they are embarrassed, but even so they applaud the alpha male, like sycophantic primates. But when another Brazilian points out the same problem, they growl and rant at the heretic and try to keep him from talking about it.

There are a few more complications that cannot be overlooked: most cutting-edge science has no immediate application and can take decades or centuries to produce any return for the investor. The director of the Department of Mathematical Physics at USP, Ph.D. from MIT and Post Doctoral from MIT, Antonio Fernando Ribeiro de Toledo Piza, who in 1994 wanted to meet me in order to talk to me about a work I developed at age 19, about a method for calculating fractional factorials, in the middle of the conversation he mentioned an occasion in which Faraday was asked what the discoveries he had made about electricity and magnetism were for. Faraday responded with another question: “What good is a child who has just been born?” This phrase expresses a complex problem in the treatment of science as an “investment”, because the current human life expectancy is too short for some investments in science to be seen as attractive to private investors. These are investments that will only bring a return in 50 years, 100 years or more, for the following generations, for our children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, it is a tree that we will have the cost and work of planting, fertilizing, cultivating, protecting, but they are our grandchildren who will reap the rewards. For this reason, even in countries where science is prolific, it may not be attractive to private investors, whose time horizon for which they are willing to wait for results is usually shorter.

Having made this important caveat, it is necessary to emphasize that this discourse would be fallacious if used to try to save the terrible reputation of Brazilian science. What is produced in Brazil can rarely even be called “Science”. Data tabulation and descriptive reports are made about the task. To use Faraday’s argument I cited her above, in defense of investment in Science, it would first be necessary for Brazil to start producing real Science.

Real science involves innovation, paradigm shift, real improvement, critical, in-depth analysis that goes beyond the obvious and adds some new and useful knowledge to the legacy of humanity. In Brazil this is rarely done. In fact, this is rarely done in the world, but the level of scarcity of innovations is worse in Brazil than in other countries with a similar economic situation or with a similar HDI.

When I say “paradigm break” it doesn’t have to be something as grandiose as a new cosmological system or a unification theory. It could be something basic, like adding a little boron to photographic emulsion plates to preserve the records of π mesons all the way down from the mountains, as César Lattes did, or solving a homomorphic encryption problem that was open for 15 years, as he did Joao Antonio LJ, or develop a new educational system that allows teaching 1-year content in 40 days to a child who had below-average grades and after those 40 days the child starts to have the best grades in school, as Tamara PC did Rodrigues, or revise the BMI formula, as I did. They are small contributions, but they reveal scientific facts still unknown, or correct knowledge that has been incorrectly repeated for a long time, or in some way contribute to broadening the horizons of knowledge or to redirecting knowledge to a path closer to the truth. It is not a complete deconstruction and reconstruction of knowledge, as Newton did, but it is a brick added to the right place, or removed from the wrong place and repositioned in the right place. This is the minimum that would be expected of a scientist, but most of the time this minimum is not met, and Ph.D. they are distributed almost like a ritual, in which the candidate only has to show that he knows how to write and knows how to interpret a little of what is on some graphs – with several misinterpretations, by the way. Depending on the discipline, it is enough to show that you can write, you don’t even need to know how to read a chart. After performing the ritual, the person receives the Ph.D. label. and begins to receive money to continue with this nonsense, pretending to be producing Science.

The vast majority of doctoral theses and scientific articles do not present anything innovative. These titles are awarded to inflate egos and satisfy people’s vanity, but they are not associated with any intellectual merit or original scientific production. A person does elementary research, purely mechanical, to corroborate some results on which there are already hundreds of other similar studies, and receives a Ph.D. therefore, and the State pays these people to pretend that they are producing something relevant and they call it “Brazilian science”, but the correct name, at best, would be “data tabulation” and “descriptive reports”. I say “at best” because there are usually several blunders in these procedures, which makes the situation even more vexing.

The central problem is that there is no culture of producing innovations. It just repeats itself endlessly. There is no incentive for innovation, there is no charge for innovation, no reward for innovation and, worst of all, there are even penalties for innovation. In 1998, a friend (Patrícia EC), who was completing her doctorate at USP, found that some experimental data on dwarf galaxy morphology was inconsistent with expectations. Instead of her advisor helping her try to understand what could be causing it, he told her to redo the measurements because she must have made a mistake in the measurements or calculations. Up to this point, I agree with him, because these mistakes are often the most common. She redid and obtained results statistically equivalent to the first measurements. At this point the yellow alert turns red and her advisor should have paid more attention to the case. However, he told her to redo it again! This is complete nonsense. It’s unscientific. It is to destroy “evidence” that could contribute to expanding, revising, improving what was known until then. This is the level at which the so-called “Brazilian science” sect finds itself. If any discovery is contrary to established dogmas, it needs to be adjusted in some way until it conforms to the dogmas. In addition to the fact that there are no incentives for discoveries, when there is any indication that something new may be ahead, we try to erase the traces of the possible discovery! People are trained not to produce, not to innovate, not to discover!

Part of the education problem in the country is not the fault of teachers, students and researchers. They just dance to the music. But a big part of the problem is their fault, because they determine the music that should play. In addition, they can refuse to dance to the music, they can put on headphones with better music, and they can create their own center of excellence, as in the case of IMPA.

The academic community’s resistance to admitting these facts exacerbates the situation, because instead of trying to fix the problems, they pretend the problems don’t exist, sweep the dirt under the rug, and move on as if everything is fine. Recently, the president of Brazil made a brutal cut in funds destined for “science”. It is a delicate situation, because the problem of scientific unproductivity is not resolved in this way. The budget cut only exacerbates the situation. It is bad to allocate money to a sector that does not generate satisfactory results, but being a fundamental sector, the correct procedure is to restore that sector and ensure that it works as it should, instead of killing it, taking away its bread and water. It would need to exchange bread and water for a richer diet, increase investment in science and simultaneously reformulate the criteria for granting scholarships, granting funds, reducing the bureaucracy of importing books and scientific and technological products, promoting exchanges with qualified researchers, creating prizes for real merit related to excellence in the original production of relevant works, rather than the political front awards, among many other changes from basic education to the titles of professors emeritus.

In the 1970s, China, India and Thailand were much poorer and less developed countries than Brazil, but they made massive investments in identifying talented children and offered differentiated conditions to encourage these children. Thailand stopped the project. China and India did. In less than two decades, they began to reap the rewards, after one generation, these children became highly skilled teachers, who provided the next generation with an even more exquisite education, and today China is on its way to becoming the greatest economic power, cultural, scientific and technological world, and India follows closely. There was a serious and profound overhaul of the education system so that they could get to where they are now. Instead of pretending they were doing science, they admitted the unproductiveness and low quality of what they produced, and started to fix what was wrong. One of the great problems in Brazil is precisely this inability to admit mistakes.


Portuguese Version

Entrevista para Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Preâmbulo:

Em primeiro lugar eu quero agradecer à minha namorada Tamara, pela paciência de ler esse texto e me ajudar a cortar longos trechos desnecessários, a Tor pela gentileza de me indicar para essa entrevista e a você (Scott) por aceitar essa indicação e por sua amável ajuda com a revisão da tradução.

Na medida do possível, procurei sintetizar e simplificar, mas sempre que foi necessário decidir entre a resposta mais curta e a mais correta, optei por aquela que me parecia a mais correta. Como resultado, acabei me estendendo mais do que gostaria e ramificando algumas respostas por detalhes que aparentemente perdem o vínculo com a pergunta, mas que, na verdade, estão indiretamente conectados por dois, três ou mais nós, de modo que se esses trechos fossem removidos, ficariam lacunas que comprometeriam a coerência.

Antes de apresentar as respostas é necessário fazer alguns esclarecimentos importantes: quando a pergunta é simples, basta dar uma resposta curta para que a interpretação seja unívoca, mas para questões complexas, antes de responder é necessário conceituar alguns dos termos utilizados, para minimizar as diferenças entre a mensagem a ser transmitida e a interpretação que dela será feita. Uma questão do tipo “Por que, no Xadrez, nem todos os Peões dobrados são debilidades?” Não há como responder de modo a proporcionar uma ideia correta em apenas 1 ou 2 parágrafos, nem mesmo se a resposta fosse simplificada e resumida. Para tentar proporcionar uma ideia razoavelmente correta e completa, são necessárias pelo menos 20 páginas, com vários exemplos comentados. Nessa entrevista, algumas perguntas envolvem situações semelhantes.

Esse tipo de dificuldade é inerente a qualquer pergunta envolvendo QI, porque o conceito atualmente disseminado apresenta algumas falhas que precisam ser devidamente revisadas, e algumas dessas revisões não são triviais, exigindo um volume considerável de esclarecimentos preliminares para garantir que a interpretação da resposta seja suficientemente acurada e fidedigna.

Fora das sociedades de alto QI é comum que façam confusão entre escalas com desvios padrão diferentes. O escore 1579 de James Woods no SAT é frequentemente convertido em 180, enquanto o escore 1590 de Bill Gates é convertido em 154 (às vezes 160), e ambos aparecem na mesma lista como se o QI de Woods fosse maior que o de Gates, embora seja o contrário. Esse tipo de erro primário foi praticamente erradicado nas sociedades de alto QI, mas ainda há erros sistemáticos sendo repetidos ostensivamente, alguns dos quais são grandes e graves. Esses erros provocam muitas confusões e dificultam a correta interpretação de questões fundamentais. Eu não me refiro a erros individuais, cometidos por algumas pessoas, mas sim a erros “institucionalizados”, universalmente aceitos como se fossem corretos e cometidos por praticamente todas as pessoas.

Em 2000, resolvi um problema central da Psicometria que vinha se arrastando desde os anos 1950, quando Thurstone e Gardner perceberam a importância de padronizar testes cognitivos de modo a produzir escores em escala de proporção. Bob Seitz, da Mega Society, referiu-se a esse problema como “O Santo Graal da Psicometria”. Depois de investigar esse problema e resolvê-lo, publiquei um artigo descrevendo meu método e mostrando como os testes deveriam ser normatizados. Também revisei as normas do Mega Test e Titan Test utilizando esse método. Em 2003, apliquei o mesmo método ao Sigma Test e publiquei outro artigo, mais detalhado, descrevendo passo-a-passo todo o processo de normatização e explicando os motivos pelos quais esse procedimento é superior aos métodos utilizados. Entre os problemas crônicos que são solucionados de forma natural com a aplicação desse método, um dos mais importantes é a correção nos cálculos dos percentis e dos níveis de raridade. Esse é um erro sistemático que vem sendo cometido desde 1905. Comentarei essa questão com um pouco mais de detalhes ao responder a questões que tratam desse tema.

Há dois outros erros que são cometidos sistematicamente, embora as soluções para eles já sejam conhecidas, mas não são aplicadas, em parte porque esses problemas não são bem compreendidos: o problema de validade de constructo e o problema da adequação do nível de dificuldade das questões ao nível de inteligência que se pretende medir. De certo modo, esses problemas estão conectados, porque geralmente os testes apresentam boa validade de constructo para determinado intervalo de níveis de habilidade, mas não para todo o intervalo no qual o teste pretende medir, assim os resultados acabam se mostrando razoavelmente acurados e fidedignos para pessoas cujos escores estejam dentro do intervalo de validade, mas começam a apresentar sérias distorções fora desse intervalo. Um exemplo clássico para ilustrar esse problema é o Stanford-Binet V. Os processos cognitivos exigidos para solucionar as questões do SBV podem ser apropriados para medir corretamente a inteligência no intervalo de 60 a 140, mas começam a se mostrar menos apropriados entre 140 a 150, por isso os escores acima de 150 já estão representando predominantemente um traço latente que não é o que se pretendia medir. Isso compromete inteira a validade desse tipo de instrumento para a aferição acima de 150, e coloca em dúvida em que medida os escores entre 140 e 150 estão de fato refletindo o nível intelectual.

Para organizar melhor as informações, antes de prosseguir citarei 3 erros importantes que são cometidos sistematicamente pelos psicometristas profissionais e nas sociedades de alto QI:

  1. A maneira como os testes são padronizados, tanto os testes clínicos quanto os high range IQ tests (hrIQts) – seja pelo uso de Teoria de Resposta ao Item, seja pela Teoria Clássica dos Testes –, produz distorções na escala, e a maneira como os percentis são calculados conduz a resultados muito distantes da realidade. Essa distorção na escala já foi apontada desde os anos 1950, por Thurstone, e já havia sido notada (embora não tivesse sido descrita) pelo próprio Binet em 1905. Um bom método para normatização de testes de inteligência deveria produzir escores numa escala de proporção, mas os escores de QI se apresentam numa escala ordinal (https://www.questionpro.com/blog/nominal-ordinal-interval-ratio/). Além disso, os erros nos cálculos dos níveis de raridade apresentam distorções muito grandes nos escores mais altos, chegando a mais de 3 ordens de grandeza. Isso acontece porque os cálculos partem da hipótese incorreta de que a distribuição dos QIs é gaussiana em toda sua extensão. A morfologia da distribuição é de fato muito semelhante à de uma gaussiana no intervalo -2σ a +2σ, mas começa a degringolar fora desse intervalo. Esse fato não pode ser negligenciado quando se calcula os percentis. Da maneira como os cálculos são feitos atualmente pelos psicometristas e nas comunidades de alto QI, chega-se a resultados muito distantes dos corretos. Por isso, quando se fala em percentil 99,9999% ou QI 176 (σ=16), os significados são muito diferentes, embora sejam usados como se fossem a mesma coisa. A raridade correta para o QI=176 não é 1 em 983.000, mas sim 1 em 24.500. E isso não acontece porque o desvio padrão seja maior. O desvio padrão é o mesmo (16 nesse exemplo), porém a cauda direita é mais densa do que numa distribuição normal, tornando os escores mais altos mais abundantes do que seria esperado se a distribuição fosse exatamente gaussiana. Trata-se de um problema relacionado à morfologia da distribuição verdadeira, que não se ajusta ao modelo teórico de distribuição normal. Na verdade, não se ajusta bem a nenhuma das mais de 100 distribuições testadas, inclusive as mais versáteis, como a distribuição de Weibull com 3 parâmetros.

  2. Outro problema é que o nível de dificuldade das questões mais difíceis de cada teste não é compatível com o teto nominal do teste. Como consequência, tal teste mostra-se inapropriado para o intervalo de QIs que deveria medir. O teste funciona adequadamente dentro de certo intervalo, no qual contenha questões com dificuldade compatível, mas deixa de funcionar fora desse intervalo. Isso é muito mais grave nos testes clínicos, cujo teto de dificuldade raramente ultrapassa 135 a 140, mas o teto nominal pode chegar a mais de 200 (Stanford-Binet V, por exemplo). Acima de 140, os testes clínicos medem a rapidez para resolver problemas elementares, que não é necessariamente uma métrica apropriada para representar a inteligência nos níveis mais altos. Nos casos de hrIQt, no quesito “dificuldade”, as questões geralmente são apropriadas até cerca de 170 ou 180, mas não muito acima disso. Aqui seria necessário abrir um extenso parêntesis para discutir o significado desses escores, porque até 130 ou um pouco acima, a raridade teórica é quase igual à raridade verdadeira, mas para 140, 150 e acima, a raridade teórica vai se tornando cada vez mais distante da raridade verdadeira. Então quando falamos em 180 de QI (σ=16), não basta informar o desvio padrão. Além disso é necessário informar se estamos falando do escore medido em um teste ou se é um percentil verdadeiro convertido em QI. Se a distribuição dos QIs fosse exatamente gaussiana em todo o seu espectro, então um QI 180 (σ=16) deveria corresponder ao nível de raridade de 1 em 3.500.000, mas a raridade verdadeira de escores 180 fica em torno de 1 em 48.000. Mais adiante, menciono link no qual descrevo como chegar a esse nível de raridade de 1 em 48.000.

  3. Outro problema está relacionado à validade de constructo, isto é, se aquilo que o teste está medindo é de fato aquilo que se pretende medir. Os melhores testes clínicos (WAIS e SB) são muito bons nesse critério para o intervalo de 70 a 130, porque esse tema tem sido amplamente debatido entre bons psicometristas ao longo de décadas e se conseguiu estabelecer alguns bons critérios para avaliar (ainda que subjetivamente) se os itens estão medindo o que deveriam medir (a inteligência, nesse caso, ou o fator g). Entretanto, fora desse intervalo de 70 a 130, a variável medida vai se tornando cada vez mais destoante daquilo que se pretendia medir. Nos hrIQts o alcance é um pouco maior, chega a cerca de 160, alguns testes chegam 170 ou até 180.

Além desses 3 problemas que são observados em praticamente todos os testes clínicos e todos os hrIQts, há também alguns problemas individuais, que são mais básicos e afetam apenas alguns testes específicos, como norma inflada, erros no gabarito, erros nos enunciados etc. Não tratarei desses, porque já são bastante conhecidos e fáceis de identificar e corrigir.

É importante não confundir a validade de constructo com a adequação do nível de dificuldade. Uma questão muito elementar, com um prazo muito curto para ser resolvida, pode ter dificuldade adequada para medir no nível de raridade 1 em 10 milhões, porque embora seja intrinsecamente fácil, como o prazo é reduzido, acaba se tornando difícil resolver dentro daquele prazo. Em casos assim, a dificuldade pode ser apropriada para medir alguma coisa em níveis muito altos de raridade, mas esse traço latente que está sendo medido não é o que deveria ser medido. Além disso, o fato de um teste ter validade de construto num determinado intervalo não implica que terá necessariamente validade em níveis muito acima ou muito abaixo daquele intervalo. Esse é um dos erros mais comuns, porque ao validar um teste de inteligência para 98% da população, isso não garante que ele continue medindo corretamente a inteligência no nível dos 1% ou 0,1% de escores mais altos. A validação precisa ser cuidadosa em todos os intervalos nos quais se pretende que o teste seja capaz de medir corretamente.

Há também alguns problemas mais sutis. O Raven Standard Progressive Matrices, por exemplo, tem sido utilizado pela Mensa em vários países durante décadas, mas é inadequado para medir corretamente acima de 120, talvez até acima de 115. O motivo é que o teste é constituído por 60 questões, mas apenas 1 ou 2 dessas questões (as mais difíceis) são úteis para discriminar no nível de 133, que é onde a Mensa pretende selecionar. Então é como se fossem utilizadas apenas 2 das 60 questões, e uma amostra com apenas 2 elementos não pode ser considerada válida estatisticamente. Na verdade, o corte em 133 não é determinado exatamente por 1 ou 2 questões, mas estas 2 questões respondem por mais de 90% do poder discriminante do teste nesse nível de corte.

Por essas razões, se há interesse sincero em que perguntas sobre QI recebam respostas representativas da realidade, esses três problemas precisam ser corrigidos:

  1. Extrapolação infundada da validade de constructo;

  2. Inadequação da dificuldade dos itens para o nível intelectual que o teste pretende medir;

  3. Adoção de hipóteses incorretas sobre a forma da distribuição dos escores nos níveis mais altos, com base na forma na região próxima à tendência central.

Além desses, há outros pontos que precisam ser esclarecidos. Há um mito amplamente disseminado de que testes aplicados em clínicas são “melhores” (mais confiáveis, mais acurados, mais fidedignos) do que hrIQts. Em alguns casos, realmente são. Mas não em todos. Para escores abaixo de 130, como os testes supervisionados são normatizados com base em amostras maiores e não-seletas, isso constitui uma vantagem real dos testes clínicos em comparação aos hrIQts. Outra vantagem é que os bons psicometristas conhecem maior número de técnicas estatísticas, por isso na faixa de 70 a 130 geralmente os melhores testes supervisionados produzem escores mais fidedignos. Porém acima de 130 e, principalmente, acima de 140, os testes supervisionados apresentam vários problemas, a começar pelo teto inadequado de dificuldade. As questões mais difíceis do WAIS, por exemplo, são excessivamente fáceis para que possam medir a inteligência acima de 135. Outro problema é que a validade de constructo dos testes supervisionados é planejada para o intervalo de 70 a 130, não se aplicando tão bem fora desse intervalo.

Fiz um exemplo simulado para mostrar em que consiste o problema da variável de constructo:

1.png

A linha azul representa o traço latente[*] que gostaríamos de medir (inteligência ou fator g ou algo assim). Os círculos vermelhos representam os escores obtidos no teste convertidos em QI. No intervalo entre 0 e 120, os escores medidos são representações muito boas do traço latente, porque os pontos se distribuem estreitamente perto da linha azul, indicando forte correlação entre a variável que gostaríamos de medir e a variável que estamos realmente medindo. [* https://dictionary.apa.org/latent-trait-theory, https://www.jstor.org/stable/1434009]

A partir de 120, e principalmente a partir de 130, os círculos vermelhos começam a se afastar cada vez mais da linha azul, indicando que a correlação entre a variável que gostaríamos de medir e a variável que está sendo realmente medida se torna cada vez mais fraca, portanto aquilo que estamos medindo está cada vez sendo menos representativo do que gostaríamos de medir. Se considerar o intervalo inteiro de 0 a 200, ou mesmo de 70 a 200, a correlação ainda parece forte, mas isso só acontece porque o intervalo de 70 a 120 está contido dentro do intervalo de 70 a 200, e como no intervalo 70 a 120 a correlação é forte, isso melhora a correlação média do intervalo inteiro de 70 a 200, mas quando se considera exclusivamente a correlação entre 130 e 200, percebe-se que a correlação é fraca nessa região e vai se tornando mais fraca para os escores mais altos. Por isso para escores acima de 130 o que importa não é a correlação global, mas sim a correlação local.

Em testes de QI como o Stanford-Binet, por exemplo, algumas pessoas muito rápidas com QI verdadeiro 150 podem obter escore 190 ou mais, como consequência do problema descrito acima. Também pode acontecer o efeito oposto, e pessoas com QI verdadeiro 190, se forem muito lentas, podem ter escore 150, 140 ou até menos. O tamanho dos erros pode chegar a níveis realmente muito altos, tanto para mais que o correto quanto para menos que o correto, por isso é que a validade de constructo[*] é um quesito extremamente importante. [* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Construct_validity]

Um teste que tenha boa validade de constructo deve apresentar comportamento como o do gráfico abaixo, em que os círculos vermelhos permanecem próximos à linha azul ao longo de todo espectro dentro do qual se pretende medir:

2.png

Naturalmente, se a amostra tiver distribuição normal, os dados se distribuirão aproximadamente como uma elipse, não como uma linha que foi representada acima, mas para fins didáticos esse exemplo precisa ser assim para ficar visualmente mais claro o aumento na amplitude da dispersão das medidas em relação ao traço latente que gostaríamos de medir.  Também convém enfatizar que, no mundo real, situações como a do gráfico acima praticamente não existem, porque o alinhamento está excessivamente bom. Mas é desejável que os escores medidos sejam capazes de oferecer boas representações para o traço latente dentro de um intervalo tão largo quanto possível.

Nos testes de QI supervisionados, utilizados em clínicas, geralmente as disparidades começam a se tornar graves a partir de 130 e principalmente a partir de 140, ou seja, aquilo que o teste mede acima de 140 deixa de ser uma boa representação da Inteligência. Nos casos dos melhores hrIQts, os escores continuam sendo representações razoavelmente boas do traço latente até QI 160 ou um pouco mais.

Um teste pode ter questões com nível de dificuldade apropriado, mas aquilo que as questões estão medindo pode não ser a inteligência. Ou pode acontecer de que a variável medida seja a inteligência, mas apenas num intervalo específico (como no primeiro gráfico). Alguns quebra-cabeças para crianças, por exemplo, podem ser eficientes para medir corretamente no intervalo entre idade mental de 8 a 16 anos, ou 50 a 100 de QI numa escala para adultos, mas se utilizar esses mesmos quebra-cabeças para tentar medir os QIs de adultos acima de 160 ou 170, o resultado será desastroso, porque a habilidade para resolver rapidamente esses quebra-cabeças não pode ser interpretada como uma boa representação da inteligência nesse nível. Por isso o tipo de problema precisa ser compatível com o nível intelectual que se pretende medir.

Geralmente as pessoas mais inteligentes também são mais rápidas para resolver questões básicas, mas o fato de resolver rapidamente questões simples não oferece uma boa garantia de que a pessoa também será capaz de resolver questões mais complexas, profundas e que exijam criatividade. Além disso, o fato de a pessoa ser capaz de resolver questões complexas, profundas e que exigem criatividade não oferece boa garantia de que ela será capaz de resolver rapidamente questões básicas. Como os testes utilizados em clínicas incluem exclusivamente questões básicas, o efeito apresentado no gráfico 1 acaba sendo muito frequente.

Essa questão é analisada com mais detalhes no texto introdutório do Sigma Test Extended.

Também é necessário padronizar os significados de alguns termos que vou utilizar nas respostas:

rIQ = QI de raridade, ou QI (σ=16 G), ou rIQ (σ=16 G)

pIQ = QI de potencial, ou QI (σ=16 T), ou pIQ (σ=16 T)

Explicações detalhadas podem ser encontradas em https://www.sigmasociety.net/escalasqi. Aqui darei uma explicação resumida: rIQ é o valor que teria o QI convertido a partir da raridade verdadeira. Isso não é o QI medido nos testes de QI nem em hrIQts. O QI medido é o pIQ, cuja distribuição não é gaussiana, a distribuição tem uma cauda densa, por isso os escores de pIQ são mais abundantes do que o previsto com base na hipótese de normalidade da distribuição. Isso não tem relação com o desvio padrão ser maior. O desvio padrão é o mesmo. A forma da distribuição que é diferente, concentrando mais casos na cauda direita e menos na região central. Nas regiões próximas à tendência central, pIQ é quase igual ao rIQ e se mantém assim até cerca de 130. A partir de então, pIQ vai se tornando maior que rIQ. Alguns exemplos:

rIQ 100 equivale a pIQ 100,00

rIQ 130 equivale a pIQ 130,87

rIQ 150 equivale a pIQ 156,59

rIQ 180 equivale a pIQ 204,93

(Uma tabela completa está disponível na página do Sigma Test Extended)

A diferença entre pIQ e rIQ aumenta conforme o rIQ aumenta, porque a proporção em que a densidade real da cauda fica maior que a densidade teórica é cada vez maior à medida que o QI se afasta da média.

Quando se compara QIs estimados com base na raridade com QIs medidos em testes, é fundamental colocar ambos na mesma escala. Por exemplo: digamos que Newton seja considerado a pessoa mais inteligente da História e digamos que o número de pessoas que já nasceram seja 100 bilhões. Então o QI de Newton estimado com base na raridade e com base na hipótese de que a distribuição dos escores é normal seria rIQ=207,3 (σ=16, G). Mas a distribuição real dos escores não é normal, por isso não se pode comparar esse 207,3 com um escore 207 medido num teste, porque estão em escalas diferentes. Ambos podem ter mesmo desvio padrão (16, nesse caso), mas a forma da distribuição é diferente e isso não pode ser negligenciado porque a distorção produzida é gigantesca.

O rIQ de Newton seria 207,3 mas seu pIQ seria 261,8. Repetindo: ambos os escores são com desvio padrão 16, tanto o rIQ quanto o pIQ. Não se deve confundir esse processo com a mudança de escalas com desvios padrão diferentes. Os desvios padrão são iguais, mas a forma da curva é diferente. Eu estou repetindo isso várias vezes porque já vi pessoas confundindo isso apenas um parágrafo depois de isso ter sido esclarecido.

Esse ajuste é necessário para corrigir as distorções das normas e possibilitar o cálculo correto das raridades a partir dos escores medidos nos testes, ou o processo inverso de calcular o QI a partir do nível de raridade.

Desse modo, a pessoa com maior rIQ (σ=16 G) numa população de 7,9 bilhões tem rIQ 201,2 que equivale a pIQ (σ=16 T) 247,8. Os escores 201,2 (σ=16 G) e 247,8 (σ=16 T) são equivalentes, como 0ºC e 32ºF. O uso do termo rIQ equivale ao uso do termo QI (σ=16 G), enquanto o uso do termo pIQ equivale ao uso do termo (σ=16 T). Também posso eventualmente utilizar rIQ (σ=16 G) ou pIQ (σ=16 T).

Por isso os testes podem produzir (e de fato produzem) escores acima de 200 com desvio padrão 15 ou 16, mas o cálculo correto dos níveis de raridade ou dos percentis não deve ser realizado da maneira como tem sido feito há décadas. Os cálculos de percentis e de raridade estão errados, conforme já demonstrei desde meus artigos de 2000 a respeito disso. Eu não estou me referindo a testes com normas infladas. Claro que esse problema se torna mais grave quando as normas estão infladas, mas mesmo quando as normas foram calculadas adequadamente, como nos casos da norma do Mega Test ou do Titan Test, tanto a versão de Hoeflin quanto a versão de Grady Towers, ambas fornecem valores incorretos para os percentis. Os escores de QI estão muito próximos dos valores “corretos”, que seriam os valores ajustados a uma escala de intervalo bem padronizada. O problema não está nos QIs medidos, mas sim nos percentis calculados com base na hipótese incorreta de que esses escores teriam uma distribuição normal. Esse tema voltará a ser analisado outras vezes, com mais detalhes, quando os tópicos abordados exigirem isso. Por enquanto, essa introdução deve ser suficiente para desfazer boa parte das confusões que acontecem com uso indiscriminado do termo “QI”, sem fazer a correta distinção entre pIQ e rIQ.

Quando Chris Harding foi registrado no Guinness Book de 1966 com QI 197, com base em seus resultados no Stanford-Binet, isso foi um erro relativamente primário e grave, porque incorre em todos os 3 itens problemáticos que citei acima: o SB não inclui questões suficientemente difíceis para medir corretamente acima de 135; os processos cognitivos exigidos nas soluções não são apropriados para QIs acima de 150; o nível de raridade calculado é incorreto.

Em 1966, a população mundial era de 3,41 bilhões de pessoas, e o nível teórico de raridade para escores 197, assumindo que a distribuição dos escores fosse uma gaussiana com média 100 e desvio padrão 16, era 1 em 1,49 bilhões. Então parecia ser plausível que uma pessoa com esse escore poderia ser proclamada a mais inteligente do mundo, ou pelo menos a pessoa com maior QI do mundo. Entretanto, uma análise correta da situação revela que o escore 197 no SB não indica nível de raridade de 1 em 1.490.000.000, mas sim 1 em 870.000 (cerca de 2000 vezes mais abundante). Além disso, a variável medida no nível de raridade de 1 em 870.000 não é a inteligência. Nessa conjuntura, o máximo que se poderia afirmar com base num escore 197 no SB é que a pessoa apresentou evidência consistente de possuir nível intelectual acima de 135 de QI, e como seu escore nominal foi muito acima de 135, há boas probabilidades de que seu QI correto seja maior que 150, talvez maior que 160, mas seria necessário prescrever um exame complementar, com questões mais difíceis e com validade constructo apropriada, para investigar qual o nível intelectual real dessa pessoa, já que os escores acima de 135 ficam fora do intervalo no qual o teste é capaz de medir corretamente.

Nos anos seguintes, começaram a surgir várias outras pessoas reivindicando o mesmo recorde, com escores 196-197. Isso prosseguiu até 1978, quando a situação se agravou, primeiramente com Kim Ung-Yong com escore 210, depois Marilyn vos Savant com escore 230, corrigido para 228, depois corrigido para 218, e finalmente Keith Raniere, em 1989, com escore 242. Todos baseados em testes clínicos que não são apropriados para medir corretamente acima de 135.

Um problema similar aconteceu com Langan, no Mega Test. O nível de dificuldade das questões do Mega Test é apropriado para medir corretamente até cerca de pIQ 194, equivalente a cerca de rIQ 177, que corresponde a um nível de raridade de 1 em 1.340.000. Esse é o nível de raridade realista correspondente ao teto do Mega Test. Em 2000 eu havia calculado para o Mega Test um teto de pIQ 186, equivalente a rIQ 169, portanto nível de raridade de 1 em 124.000, mas eu estava me baseando na amostra de 520 testees disponível no site do Miyaguchi. Porém essa amostra não é representativa do conjunto de mais de 4.000 pessoas examinadas com o Mega Test. Essa amostra está estratificada de 10 em 10 (10 pessoas com cada QI, quando possível). Por isso há uma concentração de escores altos acima do “correto”, fazendo com que a dificuldade dos itens, especialmente os itens mais difíceis (que é determinada pela proporção entre os erros e acertos) acabe sendo menor do que a correta, já que havendo mais pessoas com escores mais altos, haverá maior porcentagem de acertadores do que se tivesse sido considerada a amostra inteira. Outro fator é que mesmo considerando todas as mais de 4.000 pessoas avaliadas pelo Mega Test, há uma self-selection que produz uma concentração de pessoas com escores altos maior do que a observada entre a população em geral. Com esses dois ajustes complementares, refiz meus cálculos para essa norma e cheguei aos números que citei acima.

Portanto, com um escore bruto 47/48, obtido por Langan em sua segunda tentativa, o rIQ correspondente é 176, equivalente a pIQ 192, isto é, nível de raridade de aproximadamente 1 em 983.000. O nível de raridade real da Mega Society fica em torno de 1 em 62.000 e da Prometheus 1 em 8.000. Nos casos de ISPE, TNS etc., como estão numa faixa em que as distorções são menores, a raridade verdadeira também fica mais próxima da raridade teórica. 1 em 600. E no caso da Intertel e Mensa, praticamente não são afetadas. O percentil teórico 98,04% para escore pIQ 133 equivale a rIQ 131,8, portanto percentil 97,66%.

Há dois outros pontos que eu gostaria de comentar nesse texto introdutório, antes de prosseguir: sobre o significado de “inteligência” e sobre o significado de “certificado”, mas o texto ficou muito extenso e talvez seja melhor remover, bem como outras partes de algumas respostas. De qualquer modo, salvei o texto integral num arquivo separado, caso tenha alguma utilidade complementar ou para ser utilizado em outra ocasião.

Feitos esses esclarecimentos, agora podemos dar início às respostas.

Entrevista

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Quando você estava crescendo, quais eram algumas das histórias familiares proeminentes sendo contadas ao longo do tempo?

Hindemburg Melão Jr.: não me interesso muito por histórias.

Jacobsen: Essas histórias ajudaram a dar uma noção de um eu estendido ou uma noção do legado da família?

Melão Jr.: meus avós eram muito pobres, meu pai só estudou até o segundo ano do Ensino Fundamental (2º ano). Ele era excepcionalmente inteligente, criativo, tinha hipermnésia e uma grande variedade de talentos intelectuais e sinestésicos. Isso permitiu que ele saísse de uma situação de extrema pobreza e proporcionasse um ambiente satisfatório para os filhos, mas não muito além disso. O legado de meus pais é quase exclusivamente genético.

Jacobsen: Qual era a origem familiar, por exemplo, geografia, cultura, idioma e religião ou a falta dela?

Melão Jr.: meu bisavô materno era índio nativo do Brasil, meu bisavô paterno era português. Minha família era católica na época que nasci, mas posteriormente se converteram ao Kardecismo, preservando alguns hábitos católicos. Eu me tornei ateu, aproximadamente aos 11 anos, depois agnóstico aos 17 e deísta desde os 27. Tive interesse na Fé Bahá’í por algum tempo, mas não cheguei a participar de nenhuma atividade. Estou escrevendo um livro que trata de Ciência e Religião, no qual abordo alguns desses tópicos com mais detalhes.

Jacobsen: Como foi a experiência com colegas e colegas de escola quando criança e adolescente?

Melão Jr.: foi razoavelmente tranquilo, não tive problemas com bullying que pudessem ser associados a alguma discriminação por motivos cognitivos. Sofri bullying por outros motivos, porque eu tinha as sobrancelhas unidas, mas nada que chegasse ao ponto de me causar grandes constrangimentos, mesmo porque eu praticava artes marciais desde os 7 anos, por isso se eu achasse que estavam passando dos limites, eu reagia de forma enérgica e isso evitava que voltassem a me importunar.

Meus problemas foram com alguns professores, mais do que com colegas, porque eu tinha a visão incorreta de que os professores não podiam cometer erros na disciplina deles, mas no mundo real é muito diferente disso. Praticamente todos os professores cometiam vários erros todos os dias, e eu costumava apontar os erros mais graves. A maioria deles reagia positivamente a isso, alguns agradeciam pelas correções e revisavam imediatamente, mas outros não aceitavam esse tipo de correção, especialmente quando vinha de uma criança de 7 ou 8 anos. Um episódio marcante ocorreu numa aula de Geografia, quando eu tinha 9 anos, e a professora solicitou aos alunos que calculassem o tamanho do litoral brasileiro. Quando comecei a executar a tarefa, percebi que aquilo não fazia sentido, porque a medida dependeria do nível de detalhes do mapa, logo não havia uma resposta possível. Então expliquei o problema a ela, mas ela não entendeu minha explicação. Ela achou que eu estivesse me referindo ao fato de o mapa estar numa escala diferente do tamanho real. Então expliquei novamente, mas não adiantou, ela continuou sem entender, ficou irritada e acabou agindo de forma opressiva, ordenando que eu me calasse, e continuou a “ensinar” incorretamente. Foi um episódio muito desagradável. Geralmente os erros que eu identificava eram erros dos professores, mas nesse caso era muito mais grave, porque era um erro institucionalizado e aceito como se fosse correto pelas “autoridades” naquela disciplina, estava errado no livro e provavelmente em todos os outros livros, sendo ensinado incorretamente a todos os alunos. Aliás, isso continua errado até hoje, 40 anos depois, em praticamente todas as fontes sobre o assunto, inclusive na Wikipedia, Enciclopédia Britânica, IBGE, Cia World Factbook, U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics etc. O problema não é que o número da medida esteja errado. O problema é que a pergunta não faz sentido porque não há um “comprimento” do litoral, não existe uma resposta possível com dimensão 1, porque o perímetro tem uma dimensão maior que 1 e menor que 2. Embora tenha sido desagradável, foi também um evento do qual me lembro com orgulho, por ter deduzido um dos fundamentos da Geometria Fractal, de improviso, aos 9 anos.

Jacobsen: Quais foram algumas certificações, qualificações e treinamentos profissionais obtidos por você?

Melão Jr.: a finalidade primordial das certificações deveria ser atestar que determinada pessoa ou determinada entidade cumpre quesitos que não seriam facilmente verificáveis por uma pessoa da população em geral. Por exemplo: uma pessoa sem muita instrução teria dificuldade para avaliar corretamente se um médico está capacitado para tratar da saúde dela, ou decidir se seria melhor receber tratamento de um método alopata ou de um curandeiro. Por isso há entidades reguladoras, constituídas por especialistas experientes e supostamente competentes, que estabelecem normas que teoricamente deveriam ser necessárias e suficientes para distinguir entre profissionais qualificados e não-qualificados, protegendo a população menos esclarecida contra a prestação de serviços e produtos insatisfatórios ou até mesmo nocivos. Isso é bonito na teoria, mas na prática não funciona tão bem, e a indústria das certificações acaba servindo a outros propósitos, entre os quais a reserva de mercado, o nepotismo, o culto à vaidade e egolatria.

Os certificados muitas vezes não cumprem a função para a qual foram criados, ora aprovando pessoas/entidades insuficientemente capacitado, ora deixando de aprovar pessoas sobrequalificadas. Por essa razão, mais importante e mais justo seria examinar as realizações, as competências e os méritos reais, em vez de examinar as certificações que reconheceriam esses méritos, porque os méritos têm valor intrínseco, enquanto as certificações são meras aparências que algumas vezes tentam representar os méritos, mas nem sempre acertam.

Há inclusive uma ampla indústria para comércio de certificados fraudulentos, e pouca fiscalização sobre isso. A American Biographical Institute (ABI) é famosa pela venda de certificações sem valor, e continua atuando desde 1967. Há muitas entidades similares, especializadas na impressão de certificados bonitos, promoção de cerimônias de homologação etc. Geralmente as pessoas que consomem esses produtos são vítimas ingênuas, mas também é possível que algumas pessoas comprem esses certificados cientes de que eles significam (ou não significam).

Na Wikipedia consta a seguinte descrição para a ABI:

“The American Biographical Institute (ABI) was a paid-inclusion vanity biographical reference directory publisher based in Raleigh, North Carolina which had been publishing biographies since 1967. It generated revenue from sales of fraudulent certificates and books. Each year the company awarded hundreds of “Man of the Year” or “Woman of the Year” awards at between $195 and $295 each.” Fonte: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Biographical_Institute

Atualmente há várias universidades de P.O. Box distribuindo títulos de Ph.D. como água. Eu assisti a algumas declarações de pessoas que compraram esses títulos, a grande maioria dessas pessoas realmente acreditava que tinham algum valor e se mostravam emocionadas, felizes e orgulhosas ao receber o título. Mas talvez nem todos sejam ingênuos e alguns compreendam que esses títulos não representam algo real, mas usam isso com finalidades obscuras. Há um membro da mensa brasil que possui mais de 50 títulos acadêmicos por uma universidade de P.O. Box, fundada em 2021, mas no site da “instituição” alega ter sido fundada em 2006. Acho engraçado, e ao mesmo tempo triste, que os jornalistas que publicam as matérias sobre isso não desconfiam que seja estranho uma pessoa de 40 anos, que tinha apenas 1 B.Sc. até 2020, de repente passou a ter mais de 50 títulos acadêmicos em 2022, inclusive vários Ph.Ds. e pós-doutorados. Além dos certificados comprados, essa pessoa também afirma que a TNS é a sociedade de alto QI mais exclusiva do mundo, ele usa o QI dele com desvio padrão 24 para comparar com um “QI” fictício 160 atribuído a Einstein, entre outras coisas, e os jornalistas publicam tudo sem conferir.

Há também pessoas que compram esses certificados, sabendo que não têm valor, sem a intenção de fazer uso desonesto, talvez como um enfeite de mesa ou algo assim. Por exemplo, Chris Harding é cliente da ABI, possui vários títulos adquiridos dessa empresa, conforme ele mesmo declara em seu perfil na OlympIQ Society. Harding tem alguns méritos reais, porque mesmo que o SB não avalie corretamente acima de 140, é reconhecido que esse teste avalia algum tipo de habilidade misturado com inteligência, e poucas pessoas alcançam o escore de Harding nesse exame. Portanto, embora alguns certificados dele sejam comprados, outros são baseados em méritos reais e emitidos por instituições sérias, como os relacionados a seus recordes de QI e suas filiações a sociedades de alto QI. Entretanto, mesmo os certificados idôneos, que tentam representar méritos verdadeiros, muitas vezes atestam algo que não é uma boa representação da realidade. Conforme comentei no início, o escore 197 ou 196 no SB não poderia ser interpretado da maneira como foi, e os laudos oficiais e os certificados emitidos estão dizendo algo que representa uma crença coletiva, mas muito diferente da realidade concreta.

Harding é muito inteligente, mas não com base no escore que ele obteve no SB, e sim com base em várias opiniões dele sobre diferentes assuntos. Os méritos reais dele estão em sua essência, em suas ações, seus pensamentos, não em pedaços de papel.

A partir do momento em que a pessoa canaliza seus pensamentos e suas ações para produzir algo concreto, ela passa a compartilhar com o mundo sua essência, disseminando conhecimento e sabedoria, ou disseminando futilidade e desinformação, dependendo da qualidade daquilo que ela compartilha. E a percepção que as outras pessoas têm sobre aquilo que ela compartilhou dependerá não apenas da qualidade do que ela exteriorizou, mas também da sensibilidade e perspicácia de quem recebe a informação. Se uma pessoa brilhante disseminar conhecimentos de um nível muito elevado entre um público muito fútil, o valor desse conhecimento não será reconhecido e ela não terá certificações, nem prêmios, nem qualquer reconhecimento, enquanto outras pessoas que estejam disseminando conhecimentos vulgares e rasos, compatíveis com o público que o recebe e que emite as certificações, essas pessoas serão aclamadas e glorificadas.

As pessoas não são premiadas ou certificadas por suas realizações serem grandiosas, mas sim por suas realizações serem percebidas como grandiosas pelos membros dos comitês responsáveis pela homologação de prêmios e certificações. Além disso, há uma série de outros vieses de caráter político, social, racial, etc., que interferem nas decisões dos membros dos comitês, tornando as certificações e os prêmios ainda mais destoantes do objetivo que deveriam ter.

Esse efeito ocorre, por exemplo, em alguns testes de Cooijmans, em que o teste não mede o QI, mas sim quão semelhante é o QI da pessoa examinada em comparação ao QI do Cooijmans. Se a pessoa tiver o mesmo QI de Cooijmans, ela terá escore máximo. Se ela tiver QI muito maior ou muito menor que o QI de Cooijmans, o escore dela será baixo. Na questão sobre testes de QI, comento mais detalhadamente esse problema.

Citarei alguns poucos exemplos marcantes, alguns bastante conhecidos, mas vale a pena rememorá-los. Creio que um dos mais trágicos e marcantes seja o de Galileu, que em vez de ser premiado por suas notáveis contribuições à compreensão do Universo, ele foi severamente punido. Aliás, sua filha Celeste acabou sendo punida em lugar dele. Nos tempos mais recentes, um dos casos que acho muito tristes é o de George Zweig, que desenvolveu sua Teoria dos Ases na mesma época em que Murray Gell-Mann desenvolveu a Teoria dos Quarks. Ambas eram essencialmente iguais, entretanto a revista para a qual Zweig enviou seu artigo se recusou a publicá-lo, enquanto o artigo de Gell-Mann lhe rendeu o prêmio Nobel de Física. Há pelo menos 45 casos conhecidos de prêmios Nobel polêmicos, de pessoas que receberam sem merecer ou mereciam, mas não receberam. O prêmio mais respeitado do mundo está profanado por dezenas de injustiças, talvez centenas, se considerar as que não chegaram a ser descobertas. Inclusive Einstein é uma das maiores vítimas, já que merecia ter recebido 5 prêmios Nobel, entretanto recebeu apenas 1, por motivos raciais, xenofóbicos, nazistas etc.

Creio que agora eu possa responder a essa questão, dividindo-a em duas partes:

  1. Prêmios e certificações.

  2. Méritos até o momento não reconhecidos.

Tenho poucos certificados. Quando eu era jovem, tinha o hábito de colocar troféus e medalhas de Xadrez, Artes Marciais, Educação Artística etc. numa estante, mas numa das mudanças de endereço, um de meus troféus quebrou. Inicialmente fiquei triste, porque eram importantes para mim. Mas ao refletir melhor sobre o “desastre”, percebi que na verdade não tinham nenhuma importância. O que realmente importava eram os méritos que me levaram à conquista daqueles prêmios, bem como alguns méritos que não chegaram a ser premiados. Havia também casos nos quais eu não tinha mérito algum, mas havia sido premiado devido a alguma fatalidade da sorte. Isso não significa que eu não seja uma pessoa vaidosa. Eu sou, mas aprendi que na maioria das vezes não se recebe nada ou quase nada por algo valoroso, enquanto outras vezes se recebe mais do que o justo por algo de pouco valor ou até mesmo sem valor. Infelizmente o mundo recompensa muito mais as aparências do que a essência.

Um de meus poucos certificados é o de detentor do recorde mundial de mate anunciado mais longo em simultâneas de Xadrez às cegas, registrado no Guinness Book de 1998. Talvez algumas pessoas não estejam familiarizadas com o significado de “Xadrez às cegas” e “mate anunciado”. Esse vídeo ajuda a entender a dinâmica de uma simultânea às cegas: https://youtu.be/LUo89Cl9FPY. É um vídeo antigo e de baixa qualidade, mas para exemplificar o mecanismo do evento, creio que seja apropriado.

Farei uma descrição resumida: numa simultânea, uma pessoa (simultanista) joga ao mesmo tempo contra vários oponentes (simultaneados), cada um dos quais com seu próprio tabuleiro. É diferente de um jogo em consulta, em que vários jogadores podem se consultar mutuamente num único tabuleiro e decidem sobre o melhor lance por votação. Numa simultânea, cada simultaneado tem seu próprio tabuleiro e cada partida segue seu próprio rumo.

Nesse caso, como se trata de uma simultânea às cegas, o simultanista não tem acesso visual a nenhum dos tabuleiros, nem às peças, nem às súmulas, nem a qualquer tipo de registro dos lances ou das posições. Em nenhum momento o simultanista pode olhar para nenhum dos tabuleiros, nem solicitar qualquer tipo de informação que o ajude a se lembrar das posições das peças, nem de qualquer peça específica, nem que o ajude a se lembrar da ordem dos lances, nem qualquer outro tipo de informação que possa de algum modo auxiliar sobre as partidas. A posição de cada uma das peças em cada um dos tabuleiros fica registrada exclusivamente na memória do simultanista e essas posições são atualizadas mentalmente a cada lance. Além disso, a cada lance o simultanista precisa fazer os cálculos das variantes e sub-variantes necessários para tomar suas decisões sobre o lance a ser executado, tomando cuidado para não confundir as lembranças das variantes calculadas com as lembranças das variantes efetivamente jogadas, entre outros cuidados.

O jogo se desenvolve da seguinte forma: o simultanista permanece de costas para os tabuleiros e comunica seus lances a um assistente (speaker), que executa cada lance do simultanista no respectivo tabuleiro. Em seguida, o simultaneado daquele tabuleiro executa sua resposta sobre o tabuleiro e o speaker comunica verbalmente ao simultanista qual foi o lance executado por aquele simultaneado. Então o speaker passa ao tabuleiro seguinte, onde novamente o simultanista declara seu lance e este é executado nesse tabuleiro pelo speaker etc.

Há versões mais “fáceis” (ou menos difíceis), nas quais o jogador às cegas pode ter acesso a uma lista com todos os lances anotados, como nos torneios de Melody Amber, em que, além de serem jogos individuais, em vez de simultâneos, os competidores podem também visualizar um tabuleiro vazio, o que facilita os cálculos e reduz os riscos de se esquecer da posição de alguma peça. Mas nas regras mais rigorosas, como no meu recorde de 1997 que foi registrado no Guinness, não era permitido ter acesso ao histórico dos lances, nem ver um tabuleiro vazio, nem qualquer outro tipo de auxílio similar. É equivalente a estar todo o tempo com os olhos vendados, do início ao fim do evento.

Esse recorde estabelecido em 1997 foi numa simultânea às cegas a 9 tabuleiros, num dos quais anunciei mate em 12 lances. O rating médio de meus oponentes foi estimado em cerca de 1400. Obtive 7 vitórias, 1 empate e 1 derrota.

Os recordistas anteriores eram: Joseph Henry Blackburne (mate em 8 lances numa simultânea às cegas a 10 tabuleiros, no ano 1877), Samuel Rosenthal (mate em 8 lances numa simultânea às cegas a 4 tabuleiros, no ano 1885) e Garry Kasparov (mate em 8 lances numa simultânea às cegas a 8 tabuleiros, no ano 1985). Houve também um evento em 1899, no qual Harry Nelson Pillsbury anunciou mate em 8 numa simultânea às cegas a 10 tabuleiros, mas houve erro de contagem. Seguindo a sequência ditada por Pillsbury, o mate se produzia em 7 lances.

No caso de Kasparov, há alguns detalhes que precisam ser esclarecidos: ele jogou uma simultânea às cegas contra os 8 melhores computadores da época, inclusive o campeão mundial Mephisto Amsterdam 68000 RISC 12MHz. O rating médio dessas máquinas era cerca de 1500 e os melhores chegavam a 1800. O melhor computador do mundo em 1985 era justamente o Mephisto Amsterdam, cujo rating divulgado pelo fabricante era 2265, mas posteriormente foi medido pela SSDF em 1827 (com base em 1020 partidas). Na partida contra Mephisto Amsterdam, Kasparov jogou uma bela combinação com sequência de mate em 8 lances, mas não há registro sobre ele ter anunciado o mate. De qualquer modo, como ele sacrificou uma Torre e duas peças no início da combinação, está claro que ele calculou corretamente a sequência inteira.

Em 2005, a rede Globo fez uma reportagem para o programa “Fantástico” celebrando os 100 anos dos testes de QI, e fui indicado como a pessoa com QI mais alto do Brasil, no nível de 1 em 200 milhões. Esse é um exemplo de “reconhecimento” que eu não tenho certeza se foi corretamente atribuído. Na pergunta sobre QI, comento esse assunto com mais detalhes.

Recentemente, o amigo Domagoj Kutle me honrou com um amável convite para publicar em sua excelente revista DEUS VULT, e solicitou que eu enviasse também uma pequena biografia. Minha namorada Tamara gentilmente me ajudou a elaborar esse material, incluindo algumas de minhas realizações. Creio que isso se encaixaria aqui, por isso vou colar o texto:

Melao mini-bio, by Tamara Rodrigues:

Hindemburg Melao Jr. was born in Brazil, in a family with few resources, and only attended school until the 11th grade, having learned almost completely as self-taught.

In 1998 he was registered in the Guinness Book as the holder of the world record for longest announced checkmate in blindfold simultaneous chess games. (video)

Between 2006 and 2010 he developed an artificial intelligence system to trade in the Financial Market; in 2015, his friend and partner Joao A.L.J. incorporated a hedge fund to use this system and started to be registered in fund rankings (BarclayHedge, IASG and Preqin), winning 21 international high performance awards.

In 2007, Melao solved a problem that had been unsatisfactorily solved for 22 years, by creating “Melao index”, an index to measure performance adjusted at risk that was more accurate, more predictive and conceptually better founded than the traditional indexes of William Sharpe (Nobel prize 1990) and Franco Modigliani (Nobel 1985). (video)

In 2003 he solved a 160+ year old problem by proposing a new formula for calculating BMI, superior to the traditional one and superior to the formula proposed in 2013 by Nick Trefethen, Chief of the Dept. of Numerical Analysis at the University of Oxford, Leslie Fox Prize(1985), FRS prize, (2005), IMA Gold Medal (2010). Trefethen’s 2013 formula is an incomplete version of Melao’s 2003 formula.

In 2000 Melao developed the first method for standardization of intelligence tests that produces scores in scale of ratio and in 2003 he applied this method in the Sigma Test norm (he also calculated new norms for Mega and Titan tests using the same method), thereby solving a problem of Psychometry that exists more than 90 years ago and was pointed by Thurstone and Gardner as a central question of Psychometry more than 45 years ago.

In 2002 Melao found the best solution to a problem that has existed for more than 520 years and had been attacked for more than 65 years, the Shannon Number, which was only matched in 2014 by Stefan Steinerberger, professor of mathematics at Yale University.

In 2015 Melao showed that the method recommended by the Nobel Prize in Economics Harry Markowitz, for portfolio optimization, has some flaws, and proposed some improvements that make this method more efficient and safer.

In 2021 Melao pointed out flaws in the recommendation of the 2003 Nobel Prize in Economics, Clive Granger, regarding the use of the concept of cointegration, and presented a more adequate solution to the same problem.

In 2022, Melao solved a problem that had been open for 16 years, in which he established a method for calculating chess ratings based on the quality of the moves. Also presented an improved version of the Elo system, applying both methods to calculate the ratings of more than 100,000 players between years 1475 and 2021, the results were published in a book, along with the description of the two methods.

At 9 years old Melao deduced one of the fundamentals of Fractal Geometry and at 13 he developed a method to calculate logarithms. At age 19 he developed a method for calculating factorials of decimal numbers without using Calculus. (more details)

Also at the age of 19 (1991) he developed an invisibility machine project, which in 1993 he inscribe in a contest of ficction Literature (although the project is consistent with Scientific Method), but did not win. In 2003 Susumu Tachi, Emeritus Professor at the University of Tokyo and guest Professor at MIT, created (independently) a simplified version of this project and built a prototype.

In 2020 Hindemburg presented a study showing that Jupiter’s Great Red Spot cannot be 350+ years old, as was believed. The correct age is around 144 years old. (interview)

In 2000 Melao had a chess theoretical novelty elected one of the 10 most important in the world by the Sahovski Informator jury, the world champion Anand was one of the judges and Anand’s vote was that this novelty should be the 8th most important.

In 2004 Baran Yonter, founder of Pars Society (IQ>180, sd=16), estimated that Melao IQ should be above 200 (sd=16).

In 2005 the production of the program “Fantástico”, from Globo (second-largest commercial TV network in the world), made a special report on intelligence, celebrating the centenary of the creation of IQ tests, and Melao was nominated as the person with the highest IQ in Brazil, with a rarity level of 1 in 200 million. (video1, video2)

In 2009 Melao was nominated by Albert Frank to participate in a John Hallenborg project with people whose IQ is at the rarity level above 1 in 1 million.

In 2000 Melao updated and extended his “Alpha Tests” that he had created in 1991, added new questions, and created the Sigma Test.

In 2022 he extended the Sigma Test by creating the extended version.

Melao is author of more than 1700 articles on Science, Statistics, Psychometrics, Econometrics, Chess, Mathematics, Astronomy, Physics, Cognitive Science, Ethics, Philosophy of Science, History of Science, Education etc.

Detailed bio of Melao (documents, videos, interviews, articles, reports etc.) at: https://www.sigmasociety.net/hm

Embora eu tenha praticado Artes Marciais por vários anos (talvez ~11 anos se somar todos os períodos ativos), não cheguei a obter nenhuma certificação, porque o tempo foi distribuído entre muitas modalidades diferentes e não cheguei à faixa preta em nenhuma delas. Mas cheguei a alcançar um nível técnico razoável. Para armas curtas, talvez eu esteja no percentil 99,9% e no caso específico de nunchaku, talvez 99,999%. Esse é um vídeo de 2016, eu já estava meio velho e enferrujado https://youtu.be/jCw–5H34x4. No mesmo canal há também vídeos com outras armas (espada, tonfa, kama, sam-tien-kuan etc.).

Em 2020 fui convidado para um grupo dos 26 melhores astrofotógrafos planetários do Brasil. Embora não haja certificado para isso, fiquei muito feliz porque é um de meus hobbies favoritos. Eu gostaria de aproveitar essa oportunidade para agradecer ao amigo Vinícius Martins, que me ensinou quase tudo que sei sobre processamento de imagens planetárias, creio que em pouco tempo ele será um dos 5 melhores astrofotógrafos do mundo, ele combina 3 elementos fundamentais para isso: um talento extraordinário, um amor imenso por essa atividade e um profundo conhecimento que se amplia e se atualiza constantemente.

Entre as certificações que não possuo, uma das mais interessantes é a de CFA, conferida a gestores de investimentos. É interessante porque entre 2006 e 2010 desenvolvi um sistema de inteligência artificial para operar no Mercado Financeiro que entre 2015 e 2020, quando foi utilizado por um fundo europeu, conquistou 21 prêmios internacionais de alta performance nos rankings da Barclay’s Hedge, Preqin e IASG, sendo também o segundo melhor sistema de investimentos do mundo entre 2011 e 2016. Entretanto, eu fui proibido pela CVM de prestar serviços de gestão porque não possuo o certificado CFA. Em 2014, foi realizado um abaixo-assinado para pleitear que a CVM (entidade reguladora do Mercado de Capitais no Brasil) emitisse para mim um certificado em caráter extraordinário. A reivindicação se apoiava na redação da Instrução 306 da CVM e no fato de que meu sistema tinha acumulado mais que o dobro do lucro do fundo que ocupava o primeiro lugar (à frente de 282 outros fundos, todos administrados por gestores certificados) no ranking da InfoMoney, maior ranking de fundos do Brasil. Entre as pessoas que assinaram a petição em meu favor, houve vários professores universitários, vários gestores profissionais e vários membros de sociedades de alto QI, inclusive Dany Provost de Giga Society. Entretanto, a reivindicação não foi aceita e continuo não possuindo esse certificado. Aliás, os dois gestores mais famosos do mundo, Warren Buffett e George Soros, também não possuem certificado de gestor, então estou em boa companhia. Buffett resolveu esse problema incorporando uma empresa que compra outras empresas, em vez de administrar um fundo. Soros resolveu o problema colocando seu amigo Jimmy Rogers como gestos (Jimmy possuía a certificação necessária), eu resolvi o problema comercializando licenças de uso de meu sistema, com um limite de volume de aplicação para cada licença e um período de renovação.

Entre as certificações que não possuo, posso incluir também CNH, embora eu dirija fora da Lei (sou praticamente um gângster). Eu deixei de ir à escola no 5º ano, depois eu retornei algumas vezes, por pressão de meus pais. Eu voltava, continuava matriculado alguns meses, esgotava minha paciência, parava novamente, meus pais me pressionavam a voltar, eu novamente voltava etc. Cheguei a concluir o ensino médio (11º ano) e entrei na faculdade de Física, mas não gostei do curso e parei definitivamente depois de 2 meses. Na primeira semana de aula, eu revisei o livro de Física I e apontei mais de 200 erros, enviei meus comentários ao autor, com uma nota introdutória tentando ser diplomático, para que ele não se sentisse ofendido, mas ele nunca respondeu. Também apontei dois erros conceituais graves nos métodos utilizados no laboratório de Física, que deveriam impactar nos resultados dos experimentos; um deles, sobre as bolas de papel amassado, é o mesmo “experimento” realizado no Departamento de Matemática da Universidade de Yale, onde também cometem o mesmo erro. Nesse caso, o Prof. Dr. Paulo Reginaldo Pascholati teve uma conduta honrada, recebeu com humildade minhas críticas, fez alguns experimentos para investigar se o erro que eu indicava era procedente, constatou que eu tinha razão e, na aula seguinte, ele assumiu publicamente o erro. Achei a conduta dele exemplar, nesse aspecto, entretanto a apostila não foi corrigida e continuaram a fazer o experimento incorretamente.

Enfim, decidi que universidade era perda de tempo e seria mais produtivo estudar por conta própria, mas não é tão simples assim, e essa decisão se mostrou questionável em algumas ocasiões. O distanciamento da carreira acadêmica tem alguns aspectos positivos, outros negativos. Um dos aspectos positivos é que posso selecionar minha própria grade curricular, seguir meu próprio ritmo e me aprofundar o quanto quiser em cada tópico. Um dos aspectos negativos é que se torna mais difícil ter acesso a bibliografia satisfatória e mais difícil ainda publicar em periódicos indexados. Com isso, praticamente coloquei a mim mesmo numa situação de ostracismo.

Portanto certificados são úteis, mas é importante compreender as limitações e as distorções que podem apresentar, para não correr o risco de tratá-las de forma burocrática, a ponto de serem colocados acima da real capacidade verificada empiricamente de forma contínua. Certificados refletem as opiniões de pessoas ou de instituições que muitas vezes não estão suficientemente qualificadas para fazer avaliações corretas sobre os méritos e para decidir com imparcialidade. No exemplo do CFA, as certificações são literalmente distribuídas com base em critérios excessivamente condescendentes, que nem de longe são suficientes para selecionar as pessoas qualificadas ao exercício da função de gestor, por isso mais de 95% dos gestores certificados geram prejuízos a seus clientes. Talvez esse efeito seja mais notável no Mercado de Capitais do que em qualquer outra atividade, mas também ocorre frequentemente em Jornalismo, Publicidade, Administração etc., em que algumas pessoas sem formação nessas disciplinas eventualmente podem ser mais qualificadas do que pessoas certificadas, mas para proteger os menos competentes, são criadas leis que impedem as empresas de contratar os mais competentes, usando certificados como instrumento de discriminação e de apologia à mediocridade.

Escrevi uma versão extensa dessa resposta, na qual discuto algumas falhas no sistema educacional no Brasil e no mundo, justificando porque me afastei da vida acadêmica. Também aponto e analiso os erros cometidos por Richard Lynn em seu estudo sobre os QIs em diferentes países e explico porquê não seria correto tentar justificada o problema educacional no Brasil com base no suposto baixo QI médio da população, bem como reviso a estimativa para o QI médio de alguns países, inclusive Guiné Equatorial, Israel e Brasil. O texto ficou com 10 páginas A4, por isso achei melhor colocar como um apêndice.

Jacobsen: Qual é o propósito dos testes de inteligência para você?

Melão Jr.: o atributo mais importante dos seres vivos é a inteligência. Sem inteligência não existiria Ética, Leis, Ciência ou Arte. Para delegar corretamente as tarefas mais importantes às pessoas mais qualificadas, é necessário identificar e ranquear corretamente as pessoas de acordo com as habilidades de cada uma. Por isso medir corretamente a inteligência e utilizar os resultados como critério para atribuir cargos e tarefas, conforme o nível de competência, é extremamente importante, mas infelizmente não é o que acontece. Há dois grandes problemas:

  1. O primeiro é que o mundo é dominado pelo nepotismo;

  2. O segundo é que não existem testes de inteligência apropriados para medir corretamente nos níveis mais altos.

No final do século XIX, os primeiros testes de Galton e Cattell não conseguiam medir satisfatoriamente a inteligência, mas foi uma tentativa interessante. A hipótese de que a velocidade dos reflexos, a acuidade visual, a acuidade auditiva etc. poderiam ser indicativos relevantes do nível intelectual se mostrou inadequada. Em 1904, Binet e Otis conseguiram resolver esse problema, utilizando questões que exigiam a o uso combinado de várias habilidades cognitivas – em vez de tentar medir aptidões primárias, como fez Galton –, mas os testes de Binet só mediam corretamente até cerca de 140. As tentativas de Terman, em 1921, de utilizar os testes de Binet para selecionar futuros gênios falharam. Entre as 1528 crianças selecionadas com QI acima de 135 (mais de 70 com QI acima de 177), nenhuma ganhou um Nobel nem qualquer prêmio similar, enquanto duas das crianças não selecionadas ganharam prêmios Nobel. O teste funcionava muito bem até cerca de 130, as crianças selecionadas publicaram mais livros, mais artigos, tiveram maior renda média do que as crianças do outro grupo, porém nos níveis mais elevados, o teste falhou e deixou escapar algumas das crianças mais brilhantes. Os resultados desse estudo tiveram um efeito extremamente deletério, prejudicando a credibilidade nos testes de QI aos olhos do público em geral e aos olhos de muitos expoentes intelectuais de áreas científicas, tecnológicas, culturais e educacionais, por isso seria importante esclarecer os limites de até que ponto esses testes podem medir corretamente, para que não se crie expectativas irreais e para que não sejam aplicados incorretamente fora de desses limites.

Em 1973, Kevin Langdon criou o LAIT (Langdon Adult Intelligence Test) e com isso conseguiu elevar o nível de dificuldade até perto de 170 e a validade de constructo até 150; em 1985, Ronald Hoeflin deu mais um passo importante com o Mega Test, elevando o nível de dificuldade até cerca de pIQ 190 e validade de constructo até 170, e essas contribuições ampliaram os horizontes de aplicação dos testes de inteligência, que antes funcionavam bem até o nível aproximada de 1 em 100, enquanto os novos testes passaram a funcionar até 1 em 100.000. Por outro lado, a partir dos anos 1990, começaram a surgir alguns testes de fantasia com tetos nominais que chegavam a 250, embora o teto real de dificuldade não chegasse a 180 e o teto de validade de construto fique em torno de 150, como o ISIS Test de Paul Cooijmans. Alguns desses testes de fantasia continuam surgindo até hoje e isso agrava o preconceito nutrido por muitas pessoas contra os testes de QI, porque se a pessoa tem um pensamento crítico refinado e uma atitude cética, ela percebe que há inconsistências em resultados como o de Feynman (123) e Rosner (193, 196, 198 etc.). Ambos são muito inteligentes, e os problemas que Feynman resolveu são mais difíceis que os problemas que Rosner resolveu, o que poderia ser interpretado como indicativo de que Feynman fosse mais inteligente, então como é possível que um sistema padronizado sério de avaliação atribua 190+ para Rosner e 123 para Feynman? Alguma coisa obviamente não está certa nisso, e as pessoas geralmente não identificam exatamente onde está o erro, por isso concluem, de forma generalizada, que todos os testes de QI não funcionam, ou sequer elas sabem que existe mais de um tipo de teste de QI. Por isso o esclarecimento sobre qual é o intervalo no qual cada tipo de teste funciona contribui para combater esse tipo de preconceito. Se o QI verdadeiro de Feynman, com base na dificuldade, complexidade e profundidade dos problemas que ele resolveu sobre eletrodinâmica quântica, superfluidos etc. fosse colocado na mesma escala em que é representado o QI de Rosner, o QI correto de Feynman estaria perto de 235. E para explicar esse número acima de 200, teria antes que mostrar que a distribuição dos escores não é gaussiana etc. etc. Então aquela aparente inconsistência inicial desapareceria e tudo ficaria mais claro e mais lógico. O mesmo acontece para o QI fictício de Einstein de 160, cujo valor correto, se colocado na mesma escala dos escores medidos pelos testes, seria perto de 250.

Em 2000, o Sigma Test trouxe soluções aos 3 problemas citados no texto introdutório, tendo como foco principal a validade de constructo, utilizando questões baseadas em problemas do mundo real que exigem uma combinação de pensamento convergente e divergente em diferentes níveis de dificuldade, complexidade e profundidade, compatíveis com os níveis de QI a serem medidos. Mais recentemente, o Sigma Test Extended elevou o teto de dificuldade até cerca de pIQ 225 e de validade de constructo até cerca de 210. Entretanto, numa população com 7,9 bilhões, a pessoa adulta mais inteligente do mundo deve ter rIQ em torno de 201, equivalente a cerca de pIQ 245, portanto bastante fora dos limites que o STE pode medir. Apesar disso, para algumas das 100 ou 200 pessoas mais inteligentes vivas, o STE poderia fornecer medidas fidedignas da inteligência real, com boa validade de constructo nesse patamar, além de oferecer um desafio intelectual estimulante. Isso consertaria algumas lendas urbanas disseminadas em várias fontes, como a de que o QI médio dos ganhadores do Nobel em Ciência é “apenas” 154. Com o uso de um teste adequadamente padronizado, com nível de dificuldade apropriado e boa validade de constructo, o QI médio dos ganhadores do Nobel em Ciência deve ficar entre 170 e 190. Com o uso de testes apropriados é possível reposicionar corretamente os escores, tanto para cima quanto para baixo. Isso também venceria alguns preconceitos contra os testes de QI, porque uma das razões para rejeição se deve justamente aos resultados bizarros para Feynman (123), Fischer (123*), Kasparov (123, 135), Shockley (<135), Alvarez (<135), irmã de Feynman (124) etc., porque isso tira a credibilidade dos testes, já que é muito mais provável que esses escores estejam errados do que essas pessoas terem QI abaixo do nível de 1 em mil, quando na verdade devem estar acima de 1 em 1 milhão (e Feynman perto de 1 em 1 bilhão). Quando podemos mostrar que os testes são capazes de medir corretamente também nos níveis muito altos e fornecer resultados realistas, consistentes com as realizações dessas pessoas em problemas do mundo real, consegue-se restaurar a credibilidade para testes de inteligência como instrumentos sérios e confiáveis, capazes de desempenhar uma das funções mais importantes que é justamente fazer prognósticos precoces de genialidade. [* Embora muitas fontes mencionem o QI 187, 181 ou 180 para Fischer, seus laudos de 1958 mostram um escore 123]

Assim, embora não haja testes capazes de medir corretamente no nível necessário para apontar a pessoa mais inteligente viva, ou ranquear as 10 mais inteligentes, houve um progresso substancial desde os primeiros testes de Binet, e se Terman estivesse vivo hoje e desenvolvesse o mesmo estudo de 1921, mas começando em 2000, e se ele utilizasse o STE em vez do SB, muito provavelmente as crianças mais inteligentes estariam todas (ou quase todas) selecionadas em seu grupo, e os resultados subsequentes teriam sido confirmatórios inclusive nos níveis mais altos, corroborando a tese que ele defendia, de que é possível prever precocemente a genialidade, mas não com os testes que existiam naquela época. A tese, em si, estava correta, assim como o helicóptero de Leonardo Da Vinci, mas a tecnologia ainda precisava avançar um pouco mais para que a tese dispusesse dos subsídios necessários para ser testada adequadamente.

Jacobsen: Quando a alta inteligência foi descoberta para você?

Melão Jr.: Acho difícil determinar isso com precisão. A primeira vez que fui examinado em clínica, tinha 3 anos, mas aos 6 meses de idade eu conversava com razoável fluência, então havia algumas evidências mais precoces.

Jacobsen: Quando você pensa nas maneiras pelas quais os gênios do passado foram ridicularizados, vilipendiados e condenados, se não mortos, ou elogiados, lisonjeados, plagiados e reverenciados, o que parece ser a razão para as reações extremas e o tratamento de gênios? Muitos vivos hoje parecem tímidos diante das câmeras – muitos, nem todos.

Melão Jr.: não creio que seja um problema do passado. Continua presente em muitas culturas primitivas, como no Brasil e em vários países da África. A grande maioria da população adota uma postura de hostilidade, inveja e boicote não apenas contra gênios, mas contra qualquer pessoa que possa estar obtendo algum tipo de sucesso. Recentemente minha namorada me mostrou um vídeo de Ozires Silva, que foi Ministro da Infraestrutura e presidente da Petrobrás. Ele comenta que durante um jantar no qual estavam presentes alguns membros do comitê do Nobel (link par ao vídeo: https://youtu.be/m3u-E5XdzZ4) ele perguntou por que eles achavam que o Brasil não tinha nenhum ganhador do Nobel, já que vários países latino-americanos com menor população e menor PIB tinham inclusive mais de um Nobel. Um dos membros do comitê comentou “vocês, brasileiros, são destruidores de heróis”. Infelizmente isso é um fato que continua presente em nosso cotidiano.

Na época que eu conheci as comunidades de alto QI, 1999, alguns nomes famosos eram William James Sidis, Marilyn vos Savant, Chris Langan, Rick Rosner, Grady Towers etc. Langan era segurança numa boate, Rosner era modelo nudista e também trabalhou algum tempo como segurança, Grady Towers era segurança em um parque e teve uma morte trágica e prematura em 2000. Sidis passou suas últimas décadas de vida em subempregos e colecionando placas de carro. Marilyn foi colunista de uma revista e conseguiu um padrão de vida razoável com isso, bem como um bom prestígio e reconhecimento fora das comunidades de alto QI, e também muitos invejosos odiosos. Com exceção de Marilyn, as outras pessoas que citei ganhavam um salário mínimo e ainda passavam parte do tempo sem emprego, enquanto muitas pessoas são contratadas para ocupar cargos que elas nem sequer estão qualificadas, ganhando pequenas fortunas, além de prestígio e reconhecimento.

Essa situação é muito triste. Embora Langan não fosse o homem mais inteligente das Américas, como ele reivindicava em 2000, ou da história do mundo, como ele começou a reivindicar algum tempo depois, ele é indiscutivelmente uma pessoa muito mais inteligente e mais competente do que 99% dos Ph.Ds. em qualquer área e mais do que 99,9% dos CEOs das empresas. Ele talvez não tivesse uma cultura tão vasta e os conhecimentos especializados necessários para resolver grandes problemas científicos, mas certamente ele daria melhores soluções administrativas e políticas do que qualquer presidente que os EUA já tiveram. Eu não sei se ele seria o melhor presidente, porque ser um excelente presidente não se resume a resolver problemas. Ele precisaria também ter sensibilidade, empatia, bondade, honestidade e outros atributos. Mas geralmente muitas pessoas têm esses atributos no nível necessário. O que normalmente falta a elas é exatamente a inteligência. Eu não estou dizendo que Langan ou Rosner deveriam ser presidentes. Mas, ponderando sobre pontos positivos e negativos, eu apostaria neles como presidentes melhores que a média dos presidentes recentes.

A perseguição e a opressão algumas vezes podem acontecer de maneira silenciosa, e isso costuma ser até pior, porque é mais difícil de detectar e combater. Como é possível que uma pessoa com o potencial intelectual de Langan não tenha sido descoberto por uma grande empresa que o contratasse pagando um salário milionário para que ele resolvesse os problemas internos de modo a gerar mais lucro para a empresa do que outras pessoas menos competentes trabalhando na mesma função? Há erros grotescos nisso. A grande maioria das empresas está contaminada por multidões de incompetentes e trapaceiros, que em vez de contratar e promover com base nos méritos, fazem quase exatamente o contrário, porque se sentem ameaçados por quem é mais competente do que eles. Isso é um completo desastre não só para as empresas nas quais eles trabalham, mas para toda a harmonia da civilização. Na Noruega, na Suécia, na Holanda, na Finlândia, na Suíça, na Dinamarca etc. esses problemas são muito raros, mas no brasil isso é uma constante que afunda o país. Nos EUA talvez o problema não seja tão grave quanto é no brasil, mas quando olhamos para os casos de Langan e Rosner, fica claro que há falhas graves na atuação dos headhunters, deixando de contratar algumas das pessoas mais capacitadas do país, que passaram a maior parte da vida em atividades subprofissionais. Eu citei os exemplos de Langan e Rosner, mas o mesmo vale para um grande número de pessoas com QI muito acima da média, que estão trabalhando em atividades incompatíveis, com rendimentos muito abaixo do que merecem, produzindo menos do que deveriam, enquanto pessoas muito menos capacitadas estão em cargos elevados, cometendo erros absurdos e afundando empresas ou até mesmo afundando nações inteiras. Minha namorada é engenheira ambiental e excepcionalmente inteligente, ela trabalhou numa empresa de grande porte onde ela resolvia problemas que economizavam mensalmente dezenas de milhares de dólares cortando desperdício, além de contribuir para reduzir a poluição. Uma das soluções envolvendo a substituição de um duto gerou uma economia de alguns milhões. Se ela fosse colocada num cargo mais elevado, no qual a atuação dela tivesse maior alcance, poderia poupar dezenas ou centenas de milhões para empresa. Entretanto, ela foi convidada para participar de um esquema de corrupção, ela se recusou, a pessoa que fez o convite ficou com receio de que ela os denunciasse e a demitiu.

Em “A República”, Platão comentava sobre a importância de que os reis fossem filósofos e os filósofos fossem reis. Isso me parece o mais natural, substituindo “filósofos” por “competentes” o que geralmente é quase sinônimo de “inteligentes”. E substituindo “reis” por um significado moderno equivalente, que pode ser CEO de grandes empresas, prefeitos, governadores e presidentes. Nos EUA há vários mecanismos para descobrir e orientar crianças e jovens talentosos, há vários programas especializados. De acordo com Eunice Maria Lima Soriano de Alencar, nos anos 1970 havia mais de 1200 programas educacionais para crianças superdotadas nos EUA. Como é possível que esses programas tenham “deixado escapar” Langan e Rosner? Como uma entidade respeitada como instituto Hollingworth não os descobriu? Não é possível que eles não tenham se destacado na escola. No brasil eu acharia normal isso, o brasil deixa quase todos os grandes talentos escorrerem pelo ralo. Mas nos EUA acho surpreendente que isso tenha acontecido. Há registros de que Langan teve escore perfeito no SAT e recebeu bolsas de estudo em duas universidades, mas parece que ele perdeu a bolsa porque chegou atrasado um dia, porque seu carro quebrou. Isso é bastante ridículo. Mesmo que ele faltasse em todas as aulas, provavelmente ele aprenderia mais e melhor do que 99% dos colegas que estivessem presentes em todas as aulas. As universidades não concederam bolsas como reconhecimento pela genialidade dele, mas como uma “esmola”, com condições restritivas de retirar a esmola se ele não cumprisse determinados critérios.

Esse desperdício de grandes talentos é um dos principais motivos que leva um país à ruína. A China está alcançando e superando os EUA em grande parte porque a China tem investido mais seriamente e mais pesadamente em educação especial de crianças talentosas, enquanto os EUA estão cometendo erros grosseiros como esse, deixando que grandes mentes como a de Langan, Rosner, Towers sejam desperdiçadas em trabalhos como segurança de boate ou de parque, enquanto pessoas menos capacitadas lideram grandes empresas, governam cidades e estados.

O nepotismo não é um fenômeno exclusivamente familiar. É muito mais abrangente, levando à colocação de pessoas subqualificadas em cargos que deveriam ser ocupados por outras com mais méritos. Não há otimização na delegação de cargos, responsabilidades, tarefas, incentivos, prêmios etc. E essa ausência de otimização é obviamente penalizada. Concorrentes que otimizam melhor isso, assumem a liderança.

No Brasil a situação é muito mais grave, porque não existem tais programas. Houve algumas poucas iniciativas isoladas, que chegavam a atender poucas dezenas de crianças, mas que não duraram muito tempo.

Os testes de inteligência são extremamente importantes para serem utilizados nesses processos de descobertas de talentos. Ainda que os testes apresentem várias falhas, é melhor que sejam aplicados na medida do possível, com os erros e remendos, do que se deixassem de ser aplicados e essa calamidade se perpetuasse. Algumas das gigantes de tecnologia criam seus próprios testes para selecionar seus colaboradores, geralmente esses testes não são tão bons quanto os hrIQts, mas pelo menos eles demonstram compreender a necessidade disso. Embora estejam remendando mal o problema, pelo menos estão tentando fazer algo para identificar jovens talentos e engajá-los em projetos relevantes, nos quais possam contribuir para o desenvolvimento da Ciência, da Tecnologia e para o bem comum, portanto essas empresas agem melhor que o governo em relação a isso.

Jacobsen: Quem parece ser os maiores gênios da história para você?

Melão Jr.: Leonardo, Newton, Aristóteles, Gauss, Ramanujan, Arquimedes, Euler e Einstein.

É difícil julgar os casos de Hawking, Galois, Faraday, Al-Hazen e outros, porque Hawking teve que enfrentar dificuldades extremas, é difícil saber qual teria sido a magnitude de seu legado se ele não tivesse adoecido. É possível que Hawking seja uma das 5 ou 10 pessoas mais inteligentes da História, embora sua obra efetiva não seja uma das 100 mais expressivas, por não ser uma representação justa de seu potencial, pois ele infelizmente não teve a oportunidade de “competir” em condições de igualdade com outros grandes gênios. Galois nasceu numa condição muito privilegiada culturalmente, intelectualmente e economicamente, mas infelizmente morreu muito jovem. Isso não significa que ele teria produzido muito mais se tivesse vivido até os 90 ou 100 anos, porque analisando a vida de outros grandes matemáticos e cientistas, a maioria dos trabalhos mais importantes que realizaram foi antes dos 25 anos, eventualmente entre 25 e 30. Além disso, há muitos casos de pessoas que produziram quase tudo que puderam antes dos 20, depois não apresentaram avanço nem acúmulo de produção (Paul Morphy, por exemplo, ou Arthur Rubin). Então a notável precocidade de Galois não indica necessariamente que ele teria produzido mais do que Gauss ou Euler, se tivesse vivido muito mais tempo. Mas mesmo que ele não alcançasse o nível de Euler, é provável que ele teria deixado um legado monumental. Faraday – assim como Edison, Leonardo e eu – não recebeu educação formal, o que pode ser interpretado como uma desvantagem, embora talvez não seja de fato. A vida acadêmica pode atrapalhar, em muitos casos, é difícil julgar com segurança. Para saber se pessoas com QI acima de determinado nível teriam vantagem ou desvantagem estudando como autodidatas, seria necessário realizar experimentos com vários pares de gêmeos com QI no intervalo desejado, em que um entre cada par de gêmeos seria forçado a seguir carreira a acadêmica e o outro forçado a não seguir. Haveria vários problemas para executar tal experimento, porque gêmeos são raros e gêmeos com QI acima de determinado nível talvez simplesmente não exista nenhum caso como exemplo, e o estudo exigiria uma amostra com pelo menos algumas dezenas. Outro problema é a questão ética, de forçar uma pessoa a frequentar a unidade e forçar outra a não frequentar. Isso é especialmente grave no caso de gêmeos monozigóticos, porque provavelmente ambos teriam preferências semelhantes, e algum deles teria que ser “sacrificado” nessa situação, forçado a fazer algo diferente do que gostaria.

Na época em que conheci as comunidades de alto QI, falava-se muito em Sidis como o maior gênio da história, um gênio injustiçado e incompreendido. Há um pouco de verdade nisso, mas também há muitos exageros e distorções. Sidis é um caso incomum e muito difícil de julgar, porque a história dele está misturada com lendas e fantasias. Meu primeiro contato com a “história” de Sidis foi por meio de um artigo de Grady Towers, em 1999, que depois ele modificou em 2000. Hoje sei que havia muitas informações incorretas naquele texto, mas na época eu acreditei no que estava lá, e cheguei a considerar a possibilidade de que Sidis realmente fosse a pessoa mais inteligente da História. Atualmente vejo Sidis como uma vítima de seus pais, um prodígio forçado com talvez 180 a 200 de QI, que poderia ter sido um bom pesquisador e levado uma vida agradável e produtiva, mas foi transformado numa atração circense. O QI 250-300 que durante anos foi atribuído a ele parece ter sido invenção de sua irmã, os 54 idiomas que se afirmava que ele falava foram reduzidos para 52, depois 40, depois 26 e atualmente parece que se considera que ele talvez falasse de fato 15 a 20 idiomas. A lenda sobre ele conseguir aprender 1 idioma em 1 dia parece ser simplesmente falsa. Ele não obteve um Ph.D. Cum Laude em Harvard aos 16 anos, mas sim um B.Sc., o que ainda é uma realização expressiva, mas não tanto. Cerca de 12% dos estudantes de Yale se graduam Cum Laude, Magna Cum Laude ou Summa Cum Laude. Em alguns anos (como 1988) essas porcentagens podem aumentar bastante, chegando a mais de 30%. Eu não sei as porcentagens em Harvard, mas suponho que não seja tão diferente. Então é de fato expressivo, mas não tão impressionante quanto seria esperado por alguém com supostos 250-300 de QI.

A tendência da irmã dele em exagerar quase tudo acaba aumentando o ceticismo sobre quais alegações sobre ele são reais. O fato é que ele não deixou um legado científico nem matemático que justifique a superavaliação que se costuma fazer sobre ele. As ideias dele sobre buracos negros foram precedidas em mais de 100 anos por Laplace e Michell, as ideias dele sobre Evolução já haviam sido mais bem desenvolvidas por Darwin e Wallace, aliás, a abordagem de Sidis é bem mais superficial que a de Darwin e Wallace, sendo mais semelhante à de Anaximandro e Aristóteles. Contudo, permanece a dúvida sobre o nível de produção intelectual que ele poderia ter alcançado se não tivesse se afastado da vida acadêmica, ou, mesmo afastado da vida acadêmica, mas produzindo Ciência e Matemática fora da universidade.

Em termos de precocidade, Gauss, Galois, Neumann e Pascal me parecem mais notáveis que Sidis, inclusive porque Gauss foi um prodígio natural, enquanto Sidis foi uma mistura de prodígio natural e prodígio forçado. Galois, Pascal, Neumann também foram prodígios naturais e forçados, mas não tão forçados quanto Sidis. Essa pressão a que Sidis foi submetido talvez o tenha prejudicado e provocado o desfecho que essa novela acabou tendo. Acho difícil avaliar.

Por isso se essa pergunta me tivesse sido feita em 2000, talvez eu fizesse uma análise menos crítica e mais superficial e apontasse Sidis como o maior gênio. Atualmente eu teria dúvidas inclusive se ele teria escore muito alto nos hrIQts, talvez ele chegasse a 190 em alguns testes, mas em outros não passaria de 180. No que diz respeito à produção intelectual, os registros não mostram nada tão extraordinário.

Jacobsen: O que diferencia um gênio de uma pessoa profundamente inteligente?

Melão Jr.: habitualmente o conceito de “gênio” é utilizado para indicar capacidade excepcional em diferentes áreas científicas, artísticas, esportivas, culturais etc. Nesse contexto, uma das principais diferenças seria o nível de especificidade, pois o gênio poderia indicar um talento notável em qualquer área de atuação (Música, Futebol, Ballet etc.), inclusive atividades nas quais não seja exigida inteligência em alto nível. Em contraste a isso, a pessoa profundamente inteligente teria seu talento ligado exclusivamente a atividades nas quais a notabilidade exija nível intelectual muito elevado (Física, Matemática, Literatura, Xadrez etc.).

Mas esse conceito é inadequado, em minha opinião, porque com o desenvolvimento de máquinas que superam os melhores humanos em diferentes modalidades, torna-se importante não misturar máquinas “inteligentes” com outras máquinas. Poderia parecer aceitável dizer que Usain Bolt é um gênio do atletismo, mas seria estranho dizer que um Bugatti Chiron é um gênio, embora o que o Chiron faz excepcionalmente seja o mesmo que Usain Bolt faz. Por isso é necessário determinar critérios objetivos de classificação que sejam aplicáveis igualmente a todas as entidades orgânicas e inorgânicas, sem discriminação, um critério que funcione bem e não produza classificações bizarras. Não seria razoável dizer “ah, Chiron é um carro, portanto critério não se aplica a ele”. Isso seria uma discriminação rasa e incorreta, porque em poucas décadas haverá carros capazes de conversar sobre Filosofia e demonstrar teoremas matemáticos, inclusive híbridos que sejam parte humanos e parte carros, e se um dos critérios para ser considerado genial for “não pode ser um carro”, haveria uma grave inconsistência. Um critério sério e justo precisa ser bem planejado, não pode ser um palpite ingênuo que não contempla as possíveis exceções.

Os talentos para modalidades intelectuais, quando atingem determinado nível de excelência (algo como 5 desvios padrão acima da média) podem ser considerados “gênios”, mas para atividades nas quais o nível intelectual não desempenha um papel importante (Boxe, Futebol, Atletismo etc.), creio que o termo correto deveria ser escolhido com mais cuidado, para evitar que máquinas não intelectuais sejam incorretamente classificadas como “gênios” (um carro veloz ser classificado como “gênio” por ser veloz me parece um erro etimológico, mas se este carro pudesse realizar tarefas intelectuais, a situação mudaria). Em algumas circunstâncias, as máquinas precisam ser reconhecidas como gênios, caso contrário haverá inconsistências graves na sintaxe do idioma, apoiadas exclusivamente em preconceito contra máquinas. AlphaZero ou MuZero, por exemplo, em minha opinião eles (especialmente MuZero) se encontram numa “zona cinza” de difícil avaliação. MuZero pode aprender sozinho a jogar Xadrez, Go, Shogui, jogos de Atari, e alcançar nível muito alto, superior ao dos melhores humanos do mundo em alguns desses jogos, que são reconhecidos como jogos intelectuais. Por isso uma tentativa de ajuste post facto nos critérios, com o único propósito de desqualificar MuZero como um gênio, isso me pareceria um sinal de discriminação injusta. Mesmo porque, as próximas gerações de MuZero tendem a apresentar cada vez melhor o que entendemos como “inteligência geral”, e em algum momento não haverá como evitar reconhecer que algumas máquinas também precisam ser classificadas como “inteligentes”.

A dúvida é se caberia melhor a MuZero a classificação de “idiot savant” ou de “gênio”. A meu ver, seria melhor “gênio”, porque idiot savants normalmente não são muito criativos e não se sobressaem em atividades que exijam resolver problemas sofisticados e profundos. São muito bons em memorizar e repetir, sejam cálculos mentais ou execuções de músicas, mas não conheço nenhum caso de idiot savant que tenha se destacado como enxadrista ou como cientista. Talvez fosse possível reformular os significados de gênio e de idiot savant de maneira que MuZero ficasse mais bem classificado como savant, sem comprometer a essência desses significados. Uma classificação adequada não poderia “empurrar” Bobby Fischer ou Kasparov para o grupo de savants, por exemplo. A classificação precisaria ser cuidadosa, para não criar inconsistências com o único objetivo de remover MuZero do grupo de gênios, nem apresentar outros tipos de arbitrariedades.

Em algumas outras atividades nas quais não há necessidade de um intelecto excepcional, sendo suficiente QI perto de 120 aliado a um talento excepcional para uma área específica, creio que o termo “gênio” não deveria ser aplicável. Mike Tyson ou Usain Bolt não precisam de muito mais que 120 de QI, e alguns veículos sem qualquer traço de inteligência, que não pensam, podem vencer Bolt na modalidade que ele se notabilizou, então a excelência nessa modalidade talvez não deva ser encarada como “genialidade”.

Em alguns casos é mais difícil avaliar se o termo “gênio” seria ou não aplicável. Sistemas de Inteligência Artificial como AIWA, que é especializada em compor músicas, e faz isso num nível muito alto, a meu ver, também não deveria ser classificado como “gênio”, e nesse caso os grandes compositores humanos também não deveriam ser classificados como “gênios” com base exclusivamente em seu talento para compor. Se esse talento para compor músicas estivesse acompanhado de um nível intelectual compatível com o critério intelectual de genialidade, então a classificação como “gênio” seria aplicável com base nisso. O mesmo valeria para lutadores de Boxe, agricultores ou profissionais de qualquer área, que não seriam classificados como “gênios” com base em seus talentos para suas atividades de maior destaque, mas sim por sua inteligência.

Nessa acepção, poderia haver gênios latentes e gênios efetivos. A genialidade latente estaria no potencial intelectual de produzir contribuições relevantes para ampliar os horizontes do conhecimento, revolucionar os paradigmas científicos, etc. Enquanto o gênio efetivo seria aquele que concretamente faz essas coisas. Uma pessoa profundamente inteligente, que não tenha realizado contribuições notáveis, poderia ser um gênio latente, tendo em aberto a constante oportunidade de se tornar um gênio efetivo, a partir do momento que utiliza seu potencial para o desenvolvimento científico, ou para inovações em matemática ou em algum campo importante do conhecimento.

Algumas pessoas consideram que a diferença fundamental entre um gênio e uma pessoa profundamente inteligente está na criatividade, mas a criatividade é um dos componentes da inteligência. As pessoas muitas vezes confundem o raciocínio lógico (que também é um dos componentes da inteligência) com a própria inteligência. Mas o comportamento inteligente é uma combinação ampla de muitos processos cognitivos, inclusive memória e criatividade.

A diferença entre “gênio” e “profundamente inteligente” é mais quantitativa e está associada às proporções em que estão presentes determinados atributos. A criatividade aparece no gênio como um elemento fundamental, mas não porque o gênio seja criativo e a pessoa profundamente inteligente não seja (ambos são), ou sequer porque o gênio seja sempre mais criativo (embora geralmente seja). No conjunto de atributos, considerando raciocínio lógico, criatividade, memória de trabalho, memória de longo prazo etc., o gênio possui e utiliza esse conjunto de traços latentes na resolução de problemas inéditos com maior eficiência. Como a criatividade geralmente é um dos quesitos mais importantes para isso, acaba sendo natural associar a genialidade à criatividade.

Jacobsen: A inteligência profunda é necessária para o gênio?

Melão Jr.: Para o conceito de gênio que descrevi, sim. Na resposta anterior acabei respondendo a essa.

Jacobsen: Quais foram algumas experiências de trabalho e empregos que você teve?

Melão Jr.: Desde 2006 trabalho no desenvolvimento de sistemas de inteligência artificial para operar no Mercado Financeiro. Atualmente estou interessado em resolver o problema de prolongar a vida indefinidamente, preservar a memória e a identidade em dispositivos inorgânicos que tenham uma interface adequada de comunicação com o cérebro, ressuscitar pessoas, restaurar corpos severamente danificados e outros problemas menores que são subconjuntos desses e pré-requisitos para esses.

Jacobsen: Por que seguir esse caminho de trabalho específico?

Melão Jr.: o desenvolvimento de sistemas automáticos para operar no Mercado Financeiro é uma atividade desafiadora intelectualmente e oferece uma recompensa monetária razoavelmente justa, embora a ausência de uma network empresarial imponha muitos obstáculos. O nível de dificuldade, complexidade e profundidade dos problemas que precisam ser resolvidos para obter lucros consistentes a longo prazo com operações long-short é extremamente elevado. Há algumas maneiras fáceis de ganhar 3% ao ano ou pouco mais, praticando Buy & Hold do índice ou de Blue Chips, em que o ganho é pequeno, mas muito fácil. Porém se a pessoa quiser lutar para obter lucros perto de 30% ao ano ou acima, o desafio é extraordinariamente difícil e poucas pessoas no mundo conseguem isso de fato. Como parte desse trabalho, fiz alguns avanços interessantes em Econometria e Gerenciamento de risco. Em 2007, solucionei um problema que havia sido resolvido de forma insatisfatória durante 22 anos, ao criar um índice para medir o desempenho ajustado ao risco que era mais acurado, mais preditivo e conceitualmente mais bem fundamentado do que os índices tradicionais de William Sharpe (prêmio Nobel 1990) e Franco Modigliani (Nobel 1985). Em 2015 mostrei que o método recomendado pelo Prêmio Nobel de Economia Harry Markowitz, para otimização de portfólio, apresenta algumas falhas, e propus algumas melhorias que tornam esse método mais eficiente e seguro. Em 2021 apontei falhas na recomendação do Prêmio Nobel de Economia de 2003, Clive Granger, quanto ao uso do conceito de cointegração, e apresentou uma solução mais adequada para o mesmo problema. Entre outras contribuições em processos de otimização de algoritmos genéticos, ranqueamento e seleção de genótipos, reconhecimento de padrões etc.

Jacobsen: Quais são alguns dos aspectos mais importantes da ideia de superdotados e gênios? Esses mitos que permeiam as culturas do mundo. Quais são esses mitos? Que verdades os dissipam?

Melão Jr.: parece haver diferentes mitos entre diferentes estratos intelectuais. Para a maior parte da população, com QI abaixo de 130, parece que pensam no gênio como uma pessoa maluca, reclusa, antissocial, fisicamente frágil, e todos os defeitos físicos e psicológicos que eles conseguem imaginar, como uma necessidade mórbida de empurrar para baixo a pessoa por não tolerarem o fato de que ela se sobressai em alguma coisa e ainda por cima ter pequena vantagem em quase tudo. Muitos filmes, livros e revistas tentam reforçar esse estereótipo. Mas há outras ideias incorretas que são disseminadas em outras faixas de QI. No nível de 130 a 180, por exemplo, parece haver uma supervalorização dos resultados em testes de QI, sem uma compreensão correta sobre os limites de até que ponto esses testes produzem escores acurados e fidedignos.

Outro mito está relacionado ao nível de raridade. Pessoas que não tenham noções de Psicometria (quase todas fora das sociedades de alto QI) acham que superdotados são muito raros, algo como 1 em 1 milhão ou até mais raros. Eles geralmente também não têm noção da diferença entre “superdotado” e “gênio”, inclusive alguns acham que superdotado é mais inteligente do que gênio.

Jacobsen: Alguma opinião sobre o conceito de Deus ou a ideia de deuses e filosofia, teologia e religião?

Melão Jr.: minha família era católica. Eu me tornei ateu aos 11 anos, depois de estudar sobre algumas religiões. Num processo de transição que durou alguns anos entre os 17 e 25 anos, acabei me tornando agnóstico. Eu cheguei a me interessar pela Fé Bahá’í aos 27 anos e aos 28 me tornei deísta e escrevi um artigo no qual apresento argumentos científicos sérios sobre a existência de Deus. Digo “argumentos sérios” porque todos os argumentos pseudocientíficos que conheço sobre o assunto são tentativas desesperadas de “provar” uma crença a priori. É diferente de uma análise imparcial que conduz a uma conclusão que não havia servido como motivação inicial. Continuo sendo deísta, cheguei a fundar minha própria religião e estou escrevendo um livro sobre o assunto.

Jacobsen: Quanto a ciência influencia na visão de mundo para você?

Melão Jr.: A Ciência é o único caminho que conhecemos por meio do qual se pode desenvolver modelos adequados para representar a realidade senciente, modelos funcionais, capazes de fazer generalizações e previsões, em que os resultados obtidos são razoavelmente conforme as previsões, sem que as previsões dependam da sorte para acertos casuais. A Ciência é imprescindível no processo de aquisição do conhecimento e desenvolvimento tecnológico. Por outro lado, é importante compreender as limitações da Ciência, como um corpo de disciplinas que nos oferece um método valioso, mas que não está imune a falhas. O grande diferencial da Ciência não está no conhecimento que ela produz, mas sim no método que permite que ela se corrija a si mesma e faça isso constantemente, atualizando-se, refinando-se, ampliando-se etc., de modo que todo o conhecimento científico, mesmo que seja fundamentalmente incorreto, tem alguma utilidade prática e funciona razoavelmente bem dentro dos limites que a Teoria da Medida estabelece. O modelo cosmológico de Ptolomeu, por exemplo, mesmo sendo fundamentalmente errado, permitia fazer previsões muito acuradas. Algumas vezes as teorias científicas podem não representar estruturalmente de forma acurada os fenômenos naturais, mas ainda que as explicações teóricas não sejam as mais corretas, elas funcionam. Os conhecimentos obtidos por outros meios, como a Filosofia, a Religião ou a cultura popular, geralmente têm menor probabilidade de “funcionar”, e mesmo quando funcionam, é difícil regular os parâmetros que determinam seu funcionamento, devido à ausência de uma teoria subjacente que esteja organizada por um modelo matemático.

Jacobsen: Quais foram alguns dos testes realizados e pontuações obtidas (com desvios padrão) para você?

Melão Jr.: não há uma resposta simples a essa pergunta. Aliás, entre todas as perguntas dessa entrevista, talvez essa seja a mais difícil, porque além de dar uma resposta correta, preciso tentar ser diplomático para não parecer muito arrogante. Minha namorada já me perguntou dezenas de vezes qual é o meu QI, Tor já me perguntou isso pelo menos 5 vezes, e eu geralmente me esquivo do assunto, porque é demorado ter que explicar tudo. Mas eu vou responder aqui e quando outras pessoas me perguntarem novamente, eu vou fornecer o link dessa resposta, inclusive porque em questões anteriores e no texto introdutório comentei um pouco sobre testes clínicos, hrIQts, estimativas e comparações. Com isso, creio que será possível expressar minha opinião sobre esse tema de forma razoavelmente completa e acurada em menos de 50 páginas, aproveitando as respostas anteriores como pré-requisitos.

Fui examinado pela primeira vez aos 3 anos de idade, e cheguei até os testes para 9 anos, porque não tinham acima de 9 anos para crianças que não sabiam ler. Eu não sei qual o nome dos testes, mas o desvio padrão provavelmente era 24. Há vários pontos complexos que precisam ser examinados sobre isso, porque a evolução da inteligência em função da idade não é linear, como na fórmula simplificada de Stern, o desvio padrão não é 24 em todas as faixas etárias abaixo de 16 anos, a maioria das crianças muito jovens examinadas são prodígios forçados que os pais tentaram ensinar muita coisa desde que nasceram, mas não foi assim no meu caso, meu pai saía para trabalhar antes de eu acordar e voltava depois que eu já estava dormindo, minha mãe trabalhava quase o dia todo, por isso nenhum deles tinha sequer tempo para ficar muito comigo, quanto menos para me treinar como um prodígio forçado. Outros pontos a considerar são que o desenvolvimento intelectual não termina aos 16 anos (nem 17 ou 18 ou 19), nem chega ao limite numa idade fixa para todas as pessoas, nem permanece estável ao chegar em determinada idade. Portanto a interpretação de que a idade mental de 9 anos aos 3 anos corresponde a um ratio IQ 300 é grosseiramente incorreta e ingênua. Mesmo depois de converter a escala com desvio padrão 24 para 16, chegando a 233, continua incorreta. A curva de evolução da inteligência em função da idade também varia de uma pessoa para outra. Por isso não é razoável tomar como base testes aplicados na infância para tentar estimar qual será o QI em idade adulta. Há vários casos de QIs medidos na infância que se mostram muito distantes dos corretos em idade adulta, embora alguns possam “acertar por sorte”, como no caso de Terrence Tao, que teve o QI medido em 230 e, por sorte, realmente o QI dele está perto disso. No meu caso, é possível que também o QI medido tenha chegado perto do valor correto “por sorte”, mas os testes utilizados, o método utilizado, etc. não são apropriados.

Outro detalhe é que eu não sei se eu continuaria resolvendo as tarefas típicas de crianças com mais de 10 anos, mas é possível que sim, porém a precocidade em resolver tarefas típicas de crianças mais velhas não diz quase nada, ou diz muito pouco, sobre o nível intelectual que será alcançado em idade adulta, porque as habilidades medidas não fornecem informações úteis para esse tipo de prognóstico. O tipo de habilidade que indicaria um nível intelectual muito alto (200+) em idade adulta não tem relação com o mesmo tipo de tarefa que uma criança de 8, 9 ou 10 anos, ou mesmo 20 anos, poderia realizar, mas sim com a solução de problemas que indicassem traços de criatividade e pensamento profundo para aquela idade. O evento na aula de Geografia aos 9 anos, por exemplo, foi um indicativo muito mais relevante do que o resultado do teste aos 3 anos, não apenas porque aos 9 anos já havia alcançado maior maturidade e estava mais perto do potencial que teria quando adulto, mas também, e principalmente, porque o tipo de problema envolvido estava mais estreitamente relacionado aos processos cognitivos necessários a adultos geniais.

Conforme comentei no texto introdutório, em outras respostas, em alguns artigos e em alguns fóruns, os testes de QI e os hrIQts apresentam problemas na validade de constructo, erros no cálculo da norma e inadequação do nível de dificuldade. Eu já tive uma experiência muito ruim com Paul Cooijmans em 2001 e eu não pretendo voltar a perder tempo com isso. O Space, Time & Hyperspace (STH) de Cooijmans propunha medir o QI até 207 (σ=16), embora a dificuldade real das questões mais difíceis desse teste não seja muito maior que 170. Mas isso não é o principal problema. O STH contém vários erros primários que invalidam completamente o teste e a norma, embora muitas pessoas o considerem um dos “melhores” hrIQts. Em 2001 escrevi para Cooijmans sobre isso e apontei a ele um desses erros, mas ele se recusou a conversar a respeito disso e não admitiu o erro dele. Eu não tenho paciência para lidar com pessoas que agem como ele. Vou descrever exatamente qual o problema usando um exemplo:

O enunciado geral para todas as questões do STH era a seguinte:

a : b :: c : d

Significando: “a” está para “b” assim como “c” está para “d”.

Dados “a, b, c” determine “d”.

O enunciado, juntamente com o teste, podem ser acessados em https://web.archive.org/web/20040812113534/http://www.gliasociety.org/

Segue um print do que está no link acima:

3.png

O enunciado geral diz que há uma relação da 1ª figura para a 2ª figura que deve ser descoberta e, em seguida, essa mesma relação deve ser aplicada na 3ª figura para produzir a 4ª figura. Esse é o único enunciado geral para todas as questões desse teste, apresentado no início do teste, e funciona assim nas questões 1 até 9, mas não é assim na questão 10 nem em 16 outras questões entre as 28 que constituem esse teste.

Ele queria que na questão 10 fosse descoberta a relação da 1ª figura para a 3ª figura e, em seguida, essa mesma relação fosse aplicada na 2ª figura para produzir a 4ª figura! Mas em nenhum momento ele pediu isso no enunciado. O que o enunciado pede é exatamente o que descrevi acima. Se a pessoa responde exatamente o que o enunciado está pedindo, a pessoa perde 1 ponto!

Há várias outras questões no STH com esse mesmo erro básico de lógica. Nessa situação surreal, se a pessoa acertar todas as 28 questões exatamente em conformidade com o que pede o enunciado do teste, a pessoa receberá apenas 11 certos e terá escore 135 em vez de 205 pela norma atual, ou 140 em vez de 207 pela norma antiga.

Como Cooijmans não aceitou conversar a respeito disso, eu conversei (na época) com 3 outras pessoas capacitadas para opinar: Petri Widsten, Albert Frank e Guilherme Marques dos Santos Silva.

Petri Widsten teve o escore mais alto no Sigma Test, no STH e foi campeão em vários concursos de lógica e de QI, inclusive http://www.worldiqchallenge.com/rankings.html, onde Petri teve quase o dobro do escore bruto de Rick Rosner. Petri rapidamente concordou comigo sobre isso, inclusive com prejuízo para as próprias respostas dele, porque ele havia respondido o que ele achava que o Cooijmans gostaria de receber como resposta, não o que seria a resposta mais certa. Todas as vezes que me lembro desse assunto, fico estressado, porque Cooijmans é uma pessoa muito teimosa. Eu não acho que Cooijmans seja estúpido ou desonesto; eu acho que ele é inteligente e ele tenta fazer o que ele acredita ser certo, mas a teimosia dele é maior do que a inteligência dele.

Albert Frank foi professor de Lógica e Matemática na Universidade de Bruxelas, campeão veterano de Xadrez na Bélgica. Albert também concordou comigo e fez alguns comentários sobre Lógica formal que categorizam o tipo de erro cometido pelo Cooijmans.

Guilherme Marques dos Santos Silva é membro de Sigma V e foi campeão no concurso de QI “Ludomind International Contest IV”, também concordou comigo e “desistiu” de terminar de fazer o STH depois que viu esse erro absurdo. Ele disse que faltavam poucas questões para terminar, mas devido ao grave viés na correção, não teve interesse em prosseguir.

Além das pessoas com as quais conversei naquela época, também conversei recentemente com Tianxi Yu sobre esse tipo de problema. Yu tem escore 196, σ=15 no Death Numbers, que é considerado um teste sério e com norma desinflada. Ele comentou que já encontrou erros em vários testes, e ele postou uma extensa e detalhada crítica pública sobre isso em um grupo, citando os diversos tipos de erros que o incomodam. Há vários pontos nos quais discordo das opiniões de Yu, mas em relação aos testes, nossas opiniões são muito semelhantes.

Logo que tomei meu primeiro contato com as sociedades de alto QI e conheci o site do Miyaguchi (1999), cheguei a me interessar em fazer o Power Test, que eu considero um dos melhores em termos de validade de constructo e com nível adequado de dificuldade. Na época eu tinha 27 anos e uma opinião diferente da atual, eu tinha três objetivos com o Power Test: um deles era a diversão, outro era bater o recorde de Rick Rosner de QI~193 e o terceiro era entrar em Mega Society. Naquela época era utilizada a norma calculada por Garth Zietsman para o Power Test, com teto 197, mas antes de eu terminar de resolver todas as questões, o Power Test deixou de ser aceito em Mega Society e o teto foi “revisado” para 180. Então eu perdi completamente o interesse.

Garth Zietsman é um estatístico competente e a norma que ele calculou, provavelmente utilizando Teoria de Resposta ao Item, é consistente e muito bem fundamentada. Se os mesmos itens utilizados no Mega, Titan e Ultra estavam no Power, então as dificuldades individuais desses itens foram mantidas e determinavam a norma do Power. Por isso quando o teto do Power Test foi modificado para 180, isso foi um erro. Simplesmente foram desconsideradas as mais de 4.000 aplicações do Meta, Titan e Ultra, que serviram de base para a norma calculado por Zietsman, e foi calculada uma nova norma baseada em poucas dezenas de pessoas. O procedimento correto seria somar os novos dados (sobre os resultados de cada item respondido pelas pessoas examinadas com o Power) ao banco de itens que continha as questões do Mega, Titan e Ultra, calibrar novamente os parâmetros de dificuldade, poder discriminante e acerto casual (se aplicável) de cada item, então revisar as normas dos 4 testes de Hoeflin que compartilhavam aqueles itens. Assim os níveis de dificuldade seriam preservados igualmente em todos os testes, mantendo uma escala unificada.

Mas da maneira como foi feito, a norma do Power ficou distorcida para baixo em relação aos outros três testes de Hoeflin. Para esclarecer melhor o problema, vou citar um exemplo: no Power Test a questão sobre a fita de Moebius está sendo tratada estatisticamente como se tivesse parâmetro b = +2.81, ou seja, 50% das pessoas com QI 145 (σ=16) devem acertar essa questão. Entretanto, a mesma questão sobre a fita de Moebius ao ser aplicada em outro dos testes de Hoeflin está sendo tratada estatisticamente como se tivesse parâmetro b = 3,88 ou seja, 50% das pessoas com QI 162 (σ=16) devem acertar essa questão. Isso é uma inconsistência grave, porque ou a questão tem dificuldade 2,81 em todos os testes nos quais ela é utilizada, ou 3,88 em todos os testes. A questão não pode ter dificuldade 3,88 em alguns testes e 2,81 em outros. A normatização de Zietsman é consistente nesse aspecto, de modo que o teto do Power produz uma norma na mesma escala em que estão as normas do Mega, Titan e Ultra.

Um dos motivos que provocou essa redução no teto do Power é porque algumas pessoas já haviam levado um ou mais dos outros testes de Hoeflin nos quais os itens do Power estavam presentes, por isso a probabilidade de acertar esses itens na segunda tentativa era maior, aumentando ainda mais na terceira e quarta tentativas. Mas a maneira correta de lidar com isso seria ajustando todas as normas de todos os testes que continham aqueles itens, em função do número de vezes que aqueles itens já haviam sido resolvidos pela pessoa examinada, com normas personalizadas para cada pessoa, ou com base em quantos e quais dos três outros testes a pessoa já havia resolvido (uma equação para isso poderia ser facilmente determinada com o uso de análise de clusters, por exemplo).

Também poderia simplesmente verificar os escores de pessoas que haviam feito mais de um teste (ou o mesmo teste mais de uma vez) e o efeito disso sobre a probabilidade de acertar cada item repetido no segundo, terceiro ou quarto teste que continha o mesmo item. Embora esse ajuste global no conjunto de itens não fosse tão acurado e refinado quanto a análise desse efeito sobre cada item individual, como sugeri acima, isso já ajudaria a aprimorar as normas em todos os 4 testes, em vez de distorcer a norma do Power em relação a todos os outros.

Enfim, há uma quantidade preocupante de erros nos hrIQts, tanto nos cálculos das normas quanto nas respostas aceitas como corretas, entre outros problemas. Por isso o Sigma Test sempre adotou uma política de transparência, sendo aberto a debates, se a pessoa tivesse algum escore acima de 180 em qualquer teste e ela acreditasse que alguma resposta dela estava certa e ela achasse que recebeu uma avaliação incorreta, ela podia contestar a correção de uma questão que ela escolhesse. Se ela tivesse razão, ela podia contestar a correção de mais uma questão, e assim por diante, até que a contestação dela fosse improcedente. O Moon Test e o Sigma Test Extended adotam uma política semelhante de transparência, mas o escore mínimo em outros testes para ter esse direito a contestação é 190 tanto no Moon Test quanto no Sigma Test Extended. Isso permite revisar eventuais erros, além de permitir que a pessoa examinada tenha a oportunidade de defender o que ela considera certo, na hipótese de ela achar que merecia mais pontos do que recebeu. Em minha opinião, todos os testes deveriam adotar uma política semelhante.

Se houvesse algum teste com características apropriadas, eu consideraria a possibilidade de fazer outro teste, embora eu esteja mais velho e mais burro. Basicamente deveria ser um teste com boa validade de constructo nos níveis mais altos, teto apropriado e dificuldade apropriada. Além disso, deveria ter um sistema formal de “reclamação” que permitisse contestar o resultado. Sem isso, não vejo razão para perder tempo com essas coisas. Um hrIQt pode facilmente consumir 50 horas e se for um teste realmente difícil, com nível adequado de dificuldade, pode consumir mais de 500 horas. É um tempo que poderia ser aplicado em atividades mais interessantes e produtivas. Por isso, a menos que o teste reúna uma série de virtudes notáveis que justifiquem o esforço, eu não teria interesse. Na verdade, há um teste que, na minha opinião, atende a esses quesitos, mas eu não posso resolver porque eu sou o autor. Isso me faz lembrar de um assunto que foi discutido há poucas semanas num grupo:

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Na verdade, alguns problemas que eu já resolvi são mais difíceis que os problemas mais difíceis do Sigma Test Extented. Então há algumas pistas úteis nisso.

Algumas pessoas já fizeram estimativas de meu QI e já fizeram algumas comparações. Em 2004, o fundador de Pars Society (QI>180), Baran Yonter, estimou meu QI em mais de 200 (σ=16, G), isso é equivalente a mais de 240 pIQ (σ=16, T). Achei que ele estivesse sendo gentil, mas em 2005, quando fui indicado para a produção do programa de TV “Fantástico”, da rede Globo, como a pessoa mais inteligente do Brasil, descobri que outras pessoas tinham opiniões semelhantes à de Baran sobre mim. Eu me senti lisonjeado com as indicações, mas eu não sei se realmente sou a pessoa mais inteligente do Brasil e eu disse isso ao jornalista, mas ele insistiu, e como eu havia sido o mais indicado, e também por uma questão de vaidade, acabei aceitando fazer a matéria, cujo vídeo está disponível em minha página e meu canal.

É necessário fazer uma ressalva importante em relação à correta determinação da pessoa mais inteligente do Brasil, porque há um brasileiro que ganhou uma medalha Fields (Artur Ávila) e há um brasileiro que prestou contribuições fundamentais ao desenvolvimento das lógicas paraconsistentes (Newton da Costa), ambos são pessoas muito inteligentes, mas com perfis diferentes do meu, por isso seria difícil fazer uma comparação adequada para saber com segurança quem é o mais inteligente do Brasil, porque cada um deles é profundamente especializado em uma área muito específica, enquanto meus talentos e realizações se distribuem por uma grande variedade de áreas diferentes. Como resultado da maior especialização, o nível de profundidade que eles alcançaram é maior, mas essa maior profundidade não reflete uma maior profundidade de raciocínio, e sim maior profundidade de conhecimento. Além disso, eu só estudei até o 11º ano, enquanto eles fizeram doutorado e pós-doutorados com excelentes orientadores, o que me coloca numa situação de “correr com as pernas amarradas” em comparação a pessoas que correm montadas em cavalos. As pessoas que trabalharam nos mesmos problemas nos quais eu trabalhei estavam equipadas com ferramentas matemáticas mais sofisticadas, acesso a computadores muito mais potentes, acesso a vasta bibliografia de alta qualidade, receberam treinamento formal muito mais prolongado, intensivo e sob orientação de cientistas experientes, enquanto todo o meu “treinamento” foi auto-administrado, praticamente sem recursos bibliográficos e com modestos recursos computacionais. Muitas vezes precisei criar minhas próprias ferramentas estatísticas antes de usá-las na resolução dos problemas, e depois eu descobria que já existiam ferramentas prontas para as mesmas finalidades. Durante o desenvolvimento de meu sistema para operar no Mercado Financeiro, situações como essa se repetiram muitas vezes.

Um detalhe que é importante esclarecer: eu comentei (no apêndice) que a qualidade média do ensino no Brasil é péssima, então qual seria minha desvantagem por não ter frequentado esse ambiente péssimo? E a resposta é simples: muitos dos melhores acadêmicos brasileiros vão estudar nos melhores centros de pesquisa e universidades da Europa, dos EUA, Canadá, Austrália, Japão etc. Além disso, há alguns poucos pesquisadores realmente bons no Brasil, e quando um jovem talento recebe orientação de um pesquisador de primeira magnitude, isso faz uma diferença muito grande. Portanto há uma vantagem substancial nas oportunidades de Artur e Newton da Costa se comparados com a minha situação, porque eles tiveram acesso a muito mais recursos, além das vantagens em orientação e treinamento.

Em relação às outras pessoas que trabalharam nos mesmos problemas que eu, e eu resolvi esses problemas antes delas ou melhor do que elas ou as duas coisas, quase todos são de outros países: Nick Trefethen é Chefe do Dep. de Cálculo Numérico na Universidade de Oxford e coleciona alguns prêmios internacionais de Matemática (Leslie Fox Prize 1985, FRS Prize 2005, IMA Gold Medal 2010), Susumu Tachi é Professor Emérito na Universidade de Tóquio e Professor Convidado no MIT, Stefan Steinerberger é professor de Matemática em Yale, William Sharpe é professore na Universidade da Califórnia e Nobel de Economia em 1990, Franco Modigliani é Professor na Universidade de Roma e Nobel de Economia em 1985, Clive Granger foi professor na Universidade de Nottingham e Nobel de Economia em 2003, entre outros. Então as pessoas que trabalharam em alguns dos problemas que eu resolvi constituem uma “concorrência de peso”, além de eles terem acesso a mais recursos, mais assessores etc., portanto acho que eu ter realizado trabalhos melhores que os deles, ou ter solucionado problemas relevantes antes deles, talvez represente algum mérito para mim, eu não tenho falsa modéstia em admitir isso.

O fato é que a determinação correta da pessoa mais inteligente de um país não é algo tão simples, não é um jogo de egos e vaidades. É necessário que haja embasamento real para isso. Por exemplo, eu acho que Petri Widsten tem excelentes chances de ser a pessoa mais inteligente da Finlândia, não apenas pelo excelente resultado dele no Sigma Test, mas também porque a tese dele de doutorado, além de muito inovadora, foi premiada como a melhor tese do país no biênio 2002-2003 e ele venceu vários concursos de lógica. O conjunto desses resultados, e outros detalhes menores, como ele ser fluente em mais de 10 idiomas, sugerem um nível intelectual real com raridade acima de 1 em 5 milhões, que é a população da Finlândia. Entretanto há outras pessoas muito inteligentes na Finlândia, como Rauno Lindström ou Bengt Holmström. Embora a Finlândia seja um país culturalmente mais homogêneo, de modo que não há uma diferença de oportunidades tão grande quanto no meu caso, ainda assim a comparação ainda é difícil, por isso não seria prudente afirmar categoricamente que determinada pessoa (Petri ou Rauno ou outro) é a mais inteligente da Finlândia. O mais apropriado seria atribuir uma probabilidade a cada um. Petri teria em torno de 95% de probabilidade de ser a pessoa mais inteligente da Finlândia, Talvez Rauno 2%, Bengt 1% e alguém entre as outras pessoas 5 milhões de pessoas 2%. No caso do Brasil, minha vantagem seria bem menor que a do Petri em relação aos outros fortes candidatos.

Em 2005, o amigo Alexandre Prata Maluf, membro de Sigma V, Pars Society e OlympIQ Society, estimou que meu QI deveria ser semelhante ou pouco acima do da Marilyn Vos Savant. Creio que a intenção dele foi fazer um elogio, porque a Marilyn é um ícone nas sociedades de alto QI, mas não gostei da comparação, porque não é uma comparação justa. Os problemas do mundo real que eu já resolvi são muito mais difíceis do que os problemas que ela resolveu. Não excluo a possibilidade de que ela talvez tenha um QI similar ao meu, mas ela precisaria provar isso com resultados concretos, solucionando problemas com grau de dificuldade compatível.

Recentemente, tomei conhecimento de que em 2018, num grupo privado, meu nome havia sido indicado numa postagem com título “Name the top 5 people (alive) with the highest measured IQs in the world today! Name, IQ and Test.” Achei surpreendente eu ter sido citado, porque desde 2006 eu estava afastado das sociedades de alto QI e só retornei há poucos meses, em fevereiro de 2022, mesmo assim Rasmus Waldna, da Suécia, muito gentilmente se lembrou de mim e sugeriu meu nome, e a indicação dele recebeu mais curtidas do que receberam os nomes de Terence Tao, Chris Hirata, Rick Rosner, Marilyn e Langan. Também foram indicados os nomes dos amigos Tor e Iakovos. Compreendo que foi um tópico informal, e as reações positivas das pessoas podem ter sido influenciadas por fatores extrínsecos à capacidade intelectual, algumas pessoas podem ter curtido por simpatia, por exemplo, ou porque gostam do meu cabelo, mas mesmo assim fiquei feliz com a lembrança e o reconhecimento, e feliz também por ver alguns amigos nessa lista.

Em 2001, David Spencer me comparou a Leonardo Da Vinci e Pascal. Em 2016 o amigo João Antonio L.J. me comparou a Newton e Galileu, e a maneira como ele escreveu e no contexto em que foi dito, achei um elogio comovente e sincero. Em 2017, novamente fui comparado a Leonardo (por Aurius). Em 2020, a revista Empiricus publicou um artigo de Bruno Mérola sobre gerenciamento de risco, no qual o autor comparou meu Melao Index com o índice de Sharpe (Nobel de 1990), e na análise que ele fez, apresentou fatos e argumentos demonstrando que meu índice é superior ao índice de Sharpe. Na verdade, meu índice também é superior ao de Modigliani (Nobel de 1985), Sortino e todos os outros, mas no artigo ele só mencionou o índice de Sharpe por ser o mais utilizado no mundo, por ser mais tradicional e mais conhecido, e citou o meu por ser o mais eficiente. Em 2021 fui comparado a Feynman e novamente a Leonardo, numa situação interessante, em que a pessoa (Francisco) fez uma análise razoavelmente detalhada da comparação para justificar sua opinião. Em 2021, novamente fui citado como possivelmente a pessoa mais inteligente do brasil por Luca Fujii, um dos maiores talentos precoces da Matemática brasileira, mas como ele ainda é muito jovem, não chegou a manifestar todo o seu brilho intelectual e por isso ainda não é tão famoso, mas será em breve. O Luca é uma pessoa com muitas virtudes morais, além de intelectuais, assim como o João Antonio L.J., por isso me sinto realmente honrado que essas pessoas tenham opiniões elevadas a meu respeito, e também porque sei que não dizem isso só para me agradar, mas sim baseados em critérios profundos, critérios muito bem fundamentados e bem ponderados. O João leu mais de 1000 de meus artigos, o Luca leu meus dois livros e seguramente leu centenas de meus artigos. Portanto, além de serem excepcionalmente capacitados, também tinham conhecimento sobre o que estavam falando.

Enfim, acho que os problemas do mundo real que resolvi, as pessoas que tentaram resolver os mesmos problemas e os prêmios que essas pessoas já ganharam e outros problemas que elas já resolveram, as opiniões de alguns expoentes das sociedades de alto QI a meu respeito talvez respondam um pouco sobre meu QI, certamente mais e melhor do que um teste padronizado poderia dizer.

Jacobsen: Que filosofia ética faz algum sentido, mesmo o sentido mais viável para você?

Melão Jr.: Não conheço nenhum autor que represente minhas opiniões sobre qualquer assunto de forma suficientemente acurada e completa. Sempre há detalhes nos quais ocorrem divergências. Em meu livro sobre a existência de Deus, um dos capítulos trata de Ética, no qual exponho minhas opiniões sobre isso. Há alguns artigos nos quais discuto questões relacionadas à Ética, esse é um deles: https://www.saturnov.org/liberdadeedireitos

Jacobsen: Que filosofia política faz algum sentido, até mesmo o sentido mais viável para você?

Melão Jr.: há um provérbio polonês que diz “No capitalismo o homem trai o homem. No socialismo ocorre o contrário”. Em teoria, quase todos os sistemas políticos tentam ser razoavelmente bons, com diferentes prioridades, mas cada um visando, a seu próprio modo, objetivos nobres e elevados, embora utópicos e superficiais em pontos básicos, por isso ao serem instaurados na prática, fica claro que as vicissitudes humanas corrompem qualquer sistema, porque os sistemas teóricos não fazem previsões adequadas sobre como lidar com humanos reais. Creio que num futuro não muito distante, se não nos destruirmos por uma guerra, a liderança política do planeta estará “nas mãos” de máquinas inteligentes, e haverá um sistema muito mais lógico e justo do que qualquer sistema existente atualmente. Estará longe de ser um sistema perfeito, mas será muitíssimo superior a qualquer coisa que conhecemos, pois esses sistemas serão capazes de analisar interações muito mais complexas e profundas das relações humanas entre grandes grupos e como essas relações evoluem a longo prazo, aproximadamente do mesmo modo que os melhores programas de Xadrez superam por larga margem a qualidade de análise dos humanos, “enxergando” de forma muito mais correta e mais profunda e fazendo previsões mais acuradas do que qualquer humano. O problema é que existe um risco elevado de que sejamos escravizados pelas máquinas, ou algo assim, ou haja uma união simbiótica entre humanos máquinas, ou parasitária, é difícil prever, vai depender de algumas decisões que tomarmos nos próximos anos e décadas.

Jacobsen: Que metafísica faz algum sentido para você, mesmo o sentido mais viável para você?

Melão Jr.: a teoria do multiverso está no limiar entre a Física e a Metafísica. A palavra “multiverso” é uma construção inadequada, mas o significado é plausível e até mesmo provável.

Jacobsen: Que sistema filosófico abrangente de visão de mundo faz algum sentido, mesmo o sentido mais viável para você?

Melão Jr.: o que eu descrevo no livro que citei acima, no qual apresento argumentos que me parecem conclusivos sobre a existência de Deus, e abordo outros temas filosóficos e científicos.

Jacobsen: O que dá sentido à vida para você?

Melão Jr.: não acho que haja necessidade de haver algo que dê sentido à vida além dela mesma. A vida tem um sentido intrínseco. Mas posso afirmar que proteger minha mãe e proporcionar o melhor possível a ela era algo que me dava alegria. Ela faleceu em 2016. Fiquei sem me alimentar adequadamente e sem dormir adequadamente durante alguns meses. Eu já havia pesquisado sobre criogenia e sabia que essa tecnologia não oferece perspectivas realistas de trazer a pessoa de volta à vida, porque as membranas de trilhões de células são rompidas com o choque térmico, deixando o citoplasma vazar, um processo com baixa probabilidade de ser revertido. Comecei a pensar numa forma de ressuscitá-la, mas acho muito difícil que a pessoa ressuscitada pudesse ter restaurada exatamente a mesma personalidade e mesmas memórias, portanto não seria a mesma pessoa. Se as memórias e a personalidade dela tivessem sido armazenadas integralmente em um HDD ou SSD, ou algum dispositivo com propriedades similares, então talvez fosse possível restaurar a mesma pessoa, num genuíno processo de ressuscitação. A alegria de viver se foi com a morte dela. Em 2018, conheci minha namorada, Tamara, que está morando comigo desde então e posso dizer que ela tem sido minha alegria de viver, minha vida seria muito pequena e descolorida se não fosse por ela. É uma honra para a espécie humana que existam pessoas profundamente empenhadas em fazer o que é certo e justo, como ela, que elevam a dignidade humana a um patamar próximo da perfeição.

Jacobsen: O significado é derivado externamente, gerado internamente, ambos, ou algo mais?

Melão Jr.: em dedução o significado é atribuído, em última instância, arbitrariamente. A pessoa determina o que é um triângulo e aquilo será um triângulo. Em indução finita, o significado é inferido a partir da análise da amplitude de variação das propriedades observadas em entidades de mesma classe em comparação à dispersão das mesmas propriedades observadas em entidades de classes diferentes.

A evolução no conceito de “planeta”, por exemplo, ilustra bem como isso acontece. Os gregos classificavam a Lua, o Sol, Mercúrio, Vênus, Marte, Júpiter e Saturno como planetas. Nem todos os gregos, na verdade. Aristarco, Seleuco, Ecfanto (supondo que Ecfanto tenha de fato existido) e Filolau não adotavam o mesmo critério. Com Copérnico, o Sol deixava de ser considerado um planeta, enquanto a Terra passava a ser classificada como planeta, porque o critério dos gregos era que os planetas se moviam. Quando foi descoberto Urano, em 1781, também passou a ser classificado como planeta, porque suas propriedades gerais se ajustavam melhor a essa classe de objetos, e o mesmo aconteceu quando foi descoberto Ceres, em 1801. Porém, pouco depois, foram descobertos Palas, Vesta, Juno e outros objetos com órbitas muito semelhantes às de Ceres, todos muito menores que os demais planetas e compartilhando quase mesma órbita. Em poucos anos havia mais de 10 objetos com essas características, o que levou a reconsiderar se os critérios utilizados para classificar os planetas eram apropriados. Então surgiu o conceito de “planetoide” depois modificado para “asteroide” para incluir essa classe de objetos. Na época em que Plutão (1930) foi descoberto, como ele estava muito fora da zona de asteroides e seu tamanho foi originalmente estimado como sendo semelhante ao da Terra, foi classificado como planeta. Em poucos anos se verificou que ele era muito menor do que se pensava. As primeiras estimativas de 1931 atribuíam a Plutão 13.100 km de diâmetro, depois 6084,8 km, depois 5760 km, depois 3000 km, 2700 km, 2548 km, 2300 km, 2390 km e os dados mais recentes indicam cerca de 2376,6 km. Por isso, na época em que foi descoberto, era plausível que fosse classificado como “planeta”, mas ao constatar que era muito menor e menos massivo, a situação mudou. Essa questão é analisada com mais detalhes em meu livro sobre esse tema. Quando foram descobertos outros objetos transnetunianos, já se começou a considerar que talvez Plutão ficasse mais bem classificado como um daqueles objetos, em vez de ser considerado um planeta. Os planetas telúricos (Mercúrio, Vênus, Terra e Marte) tinham superfície rochosa, densidade média aproximadamente entre 4 e 5,5 vezes a da água, diâmetro aproximadamente entre 5.000 e 13.000 km, enquanto planetas jovianos (Júpiter, Saturno, Urano, Netuno) tinham “superfície” fluida, densidade média aproximadamente entre 0,7 e 1,7 vezes a da água, diâmetro aproximadamente entre 50.000 e 140.000 km. Mas Plutão ficava muito fora desses dois grupos, sua densidade 1,9 era semelhante à dos jovianos, mas seu tamanho era menor que o dos telúricos. Não se sabia se a superfície era rochosa, mas em princípio se acreditava que sim. Quando foi descoberto Éris – cuja massa é similar à de Plutão e talvez um pouco maior –, finalmente decidiram promover um debate sobre isso e reconsiderar os critérios para classificação de planetas. Em 2006, a UAI decidiu criar uma nova classe de objetos, os “planetas anões”, e Plutão entrou para essa categoria.

Eu pulei alguns eventos importantes, como a descoberta de Galileu e Simons dos 4 grandes satélites de Júpiter, que foram inicialmente considerados “planetas”, porque não existia o conceito de “satélite” até que Kepler sugeriu isso. Algumas vezes, Galileu se referia a esses objetos como “pequenas estrelas”, já que não se sabia muito bem o que eram as estrelas, embora Giordano Bruno já tivesse um palpite promissor.

O significado de “planeta” foi e continua sendo determinado pela comparação com outros objetos que apresentem diferentes níveis de similaridade. Em casos nos quais há grande números de objetos para comparar, como a taxonomia de animais, pode-se fazer as classificações em muitos níveis hierárquicos, com diferentes níveis de similaridade, e os significados são atribuídos de acordo com as propriedades comuns a todos os elementos da mesma classe, ao mesmo tempo em que se tenta selecionar critérios que permitam distinguir de elementos de outras classes. Nas classificações de cachorros e gatos, por exemplo, não é útil considerar o fato de terem 2 olhos, rabo e focinho, porque isso não ajuda a distinguir uma espécie da outra. Tamanho médio poderia ajudar, se a dispersão nos tamanhos fosse mais estreita, mas como as diferentes raças de cachorro variam numa amplitude muito grande, esse critério também não ajudaria muito. Nesses casos, critérios mais sutis e específicos, como morfologia do rosto, morfologia dos dentes e número de dentes acabam sendo mais úteis. O tamanho do focinho pode ajudar, mas o número de dentes tem significado semelhante, por estar relacionado ao tamanho do focinho, com a vantagem de ser mais objetivo e quantitativo.

Enfim, essas são as duas principais maneiras de determinar os significados. Uma é arbitrária, permite que se imponha quais características a entidade deve ter. A outra tenta descobrir quais característicos são comuns a todas as entidades de uma mesma classe e, ao mesmo tempo, são diferentes das características de entidades de classes semelhantes, de modo a possibilitar a distinção entre entidades de uma classe ou de outra. Esses significados são frequentemente incompletos, incertos e sujeitos a revisões, conforme se faz novas descobertas sobre outras entidades cujas características sejam limítrofes em determinada classe, levando a ampliar, estreitar ou reconfigurar os critérios de modo a incluir ou excluir a nova entidade em uma das classes conhecidas, ou, mais raramente, criar uma nova classe inaugurada por essa entidade.

Jacobsen: Você acredita em vida após a morte? Se sim, por que e de que forma? Se não, por que não?

Melão Jr.: o conceito de “morte” é um desligamento, que por enquanto não sabemos como religar, mas brevemente será possível de diferentes maneiras. Esse é um dos tópicos analisados mais detalhadamente em meu livro. O conceito de “alma” também precisa ser examinado com detalhes, para responder a isso, e o tamanho da resposta seria imensa.

Jacobsen: O que você acha do mistério e da transitoriedade da vida?

Melão Jr.: não acho que seja transitória. Por enquanto tem sido, mas isso deve mudar em breve.

Jacobsen: O que é amor para você?

Melão Jr.: é uma tentativa desesperada de inventar uma palavra para representar um sentimento indescritível.

Apêndice:

Sistema Educacional no Brasil e estudo de Richard Lynn sobre QIs em diferentes países.

O sistema educacional costuma ser ruim no mundo inteiro, mas no Brasil é muito pior do que a média de países com PIB similar ao nosso. Estimo que a educação brasileira seja uma das piores do mundo. O Professor Emérito da Universidade de Ulster Richard Lynn oferece uma explicação simplista para isso em seu artigo “QI e riqueza das nações”. Ele não trata da Educação. Trata da Economia, mas o argumento que ele utiliza para justificar as diferenças de renda seria igualmente (e melhor) aplicado à Educação, desde que o argumento fosse válido. Mas o argumento parte de uma premissa falsa. Há muitos erros no trabalho de Lynn. A ideia central que ele defende está certa, mas quantitativamente ele força resultados exagerados. A tese que ele defende – de que existem diferenças étnicas e regionais – está certa, mas as diferenças não são tão grandes quanto ele quer fazer parecer. De acordo com Lynn, o QI médio em Guiné Equatorial é 56. Se isso estivesse certo, seria esperado que o país fosse uma grande tribo de nômades, eles não teriam dominado a técnica de produzir fogo, não teriam construído arados, lanças etc. Mas existe uma civilização urbana lá. Além disso, pessoas com QI abaixo de 60 têm muita dificuldade para aprender a ler e escrever, mesmo vivendo em países com ampla infraestrutura e incentivo à alfabetização. Se mais de 91% da população de Guiné Equatorial sabe ler (supondo que essa informação não seja maquiada), mesmo num ambiente com menor incentivo ao aprendizado, seria muito difícil explicar como essa população com QI médio 56 é predominantemente alfabetizada. Lynn tenta disseminar as crenças neonazistas dele e usa essas pesquisas científicas para tentar ganhar credibilidade para suas opiniões. O QI médio dos judeus Ashkenazi é cerca de 114, a média mais alta do mundo, mas Lynn conseguiu manipular os dados de sua meta-análise para que o QI médio do estado de Israel ficasse em 94.

No caso do Brasil, os resultados de Lynn indicavam QI médio 87 e em revisão mais recente indicam 83,38. Se isso estivesse certo, seria uma boa explicação para baixa qualidade da produção científica brasileira e a péssima qualidade de ensino. Mas os problemas reais que predominam no Brasil são uma combinação de preguiça dos alunos, preguiça dos professores, nivelamento por baixo nas aulas e péssimo metodologia “pedagógica”.

Uma análise mais séria da situação mostra que o QI real médio do brasileiro não é tão baixo quanto os estudos de Lynn sugerem. Muitas pessoas entregam os questionários dos testes de QI sem responder, ou “chutam” todas as alternativas, ou respondem algumas e “chutam” as demais.

Em uma postagem minha no perfil de nosso amigo Iakovos Koukas, fiz um comentário razoavelmente detalhado sobre isso, o qual também reproduzi no grupo IQ Olympiad e reproduzo novamente a aqui:

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Realmente existem diferenças cognitivas em função da etnia, assim como existem em relação à altura média, tamanho médio do pênis, concentração média de melanina sob a pele etc., mas as diferenças cognitivas são muito menores do que ele tenta “vender”.

De um lado, existe o problema do igualismo ingênuo, defendido por alguns grupos pseudoideológicos, e isso não encontra nenhum respaldo nos fatos. No extremo oposto, existem os grupos de pessoas como Richard Lynn, Tatu Vanhanen e Charles Murray que tentam exacerbar as diferenças raciais e usá-las para justificar a situação de miséria de alguns povos. Tanto o grupo dos eugenistas radicais quanto o dos igualistaristas radicais estão errados, mas entre um extremo e outro existem algumas verdades.

Assim como há diferenças cognitivas marcantes entre espécies, há diferenças entre etnias, porém menos marcantes porque a amplitude de variação genética dentro de uma mesma espécie é menor. Fingir que essas diferenças não existem é um erro, porque o conhecimento correto sobre as particularidades de cada etnia ajuda a fazer diagnósticos mais acurados de diversas doenças cujos sintomas não são os mesmos em todos grupos étnicos, o tempo adequado de exposição ao Sol para a síntese de vitamina D não é o mesmo, e muitas características que seriam interpretadas como “saudáveis” em algumas etnias não são em outras, por isso o uso correto dessas informações ajuda a interpretar com mais eficácia os resultados de hemogramas, analisar anomalias ósseas, dermatológicas e musculares. Conhecer as diferenças fisiológicas, cognitivas e comportamentais de cada etnia é importante; o problema está em usar essas diferenças com o propósito de tiranizar, oprimir ou diminuir os méritos de um povo, isso é antiético e anticientífico, e Lynn tenta fazer isso de forma ostensiva.

No caso do Brasil, parece haver uma distorção perto de 10 a 15 pontos nos números apresentados por Lynn, então o QI médio correto do brasileiro deve ser cerca de 95, um pouco abaixo da média, mas não tanto a ponto de justificar os péssimos resultados do Brasil em Ciência. Os problemas reais parecem ser a preguiça e outros itens que mencionei acima. Há estudos recentes que questionam se o comportamento aparentemente preguiçoso deveria ser classificado exatamente como “preguiça” ou não, mas não vou entrar também nessa discussão para não tornar esse texto ainda mais longo.

Nos anos 1950 e 1960, Richard Feynman esteve algumas vezes no Brasil e fez críticas severas ao sistema educacional brasileiro, ele fez alguns experimentos sociais de improviso e mostrou que estudantes de doutorado brasileiros muitas vezes não compreendiam o básico sobre o que estavam fazendo, agiam mecanicamente, sem a menor noção sobre os fundamentos. Os brasileiros escreveram algumas palavras bonitas em relação às críticas de Feynman, dizendo que pretendiam melhorar alguma coisa, mas a situação atual é talvez até pior do que era na época em que Feynman esteve em nosso país. Além da situação vergonhosa da educação no Brasil, há ainda outros problemas nesse episódio, porque os “educadores” brasileiros demonstraram surpresa e perplexidade com os problemas apontados por Feynman, como se estivessem numa casa pegando fogo, mas não estivessem enxergando que o fogo estava devorando tudo, até que um vizinho entra e mostra o fogo a eles. Então eles agradecem, mostram-se chocados, fazem um discurso de mea-culpa, mas não fazem nada concreto em relação ao incêndio, que continua devastador… É inacreditável que não estivessem enxergando o fogo antes de o vizinho indicar a eles e é inacreditável que continuem sem tomar qualquer providência depois que o problema foi apontado.

Embora os cientistas e educadores não tenham se mobilizado para tentar resolver o problema, alguns expoentes brasileiros da Matemática, que tinham algumas experiências na Europa e nos Estados Unidos, decidiram tentar reproduzir um pequeno oásis, trazendo para o Brasil um pouco do que haviam experimentado em países desenvolvidos. Em 1952, foi fundado o IMPA (Instituto de Matemática Pura e Aplicada). Naquela época, o Brasil estava no Grupo I da IMU (International Mathematical Union), o nível mais baixo. Ao longo de 70 anos, o IMPA tem sido o único lugar no Brasil onde houve uma tentativa sincera de identificar e apoiar alguns talentos notáveis, tentando escapar da burocracia e da ineficiência do Sistema Educacional. Mas o IMPA é apenas 1 instituição situada no Rio de Janeiro. O Brasil é um país grande, com 8.500.000 km^2, de modo que as pessoas que moram longe do RJ muitas vezes não conseguem desfrutar o que o IMPA oferece. Por isso o alcance do IMPA ainda é pequeno. Com a popularização da Internet isso tem melhorado, mas o número de beneficiados ainda é muito limitado, inclusive porque há relativamente pouca divulgação dos eventos do IMPA, a maioria das escolas não inscreve seus alunos em OBM (Olimpíada Brasileira da Matemática), a maioria dos alunos nem sequer sabe que existe OBM. Há alguns professores espalhados pelo Brasil ligados ao IMPA, que tentam contribuir para a identificação de talentos, mas é um processo difícil, eles não recebem incentivo do governo, nem de empresas. Mesmo com esses obstáculos, entre 1952 e 2015 o IMPA elevou o Brasil do Grupo 1 para o Grupo 5 (o mais alto), do qual fazem parte apenas 11 países: Alemanha, Brasil, Canadá, China, EUA, França, Israel, Itália, Japão, Reino Unido e Rússia.

Não sei quais os critérios para ser incluído no Grupo 5 da IMU, mas suponho que seja uma combinação de mérito e política, talvez mais mérito do que política. Digo que há um pouco de política porque há países com duas medalhas Fields ou dois prêmios Abel, mas não fazem parte desse grupo, como Austrália, Bélgica, Irã e Suécia, enquanto o Brasil tem apenas 1 medalha Fields. Claro que esses prêmios não devem ser o único critério, mas são indicativos bastante razoáveis sobre a nata da matemática que se produz em cada país. Também há vários países com 1 medalha Fields e uma tradição matemática mais longa, que também não estão no Grupo 5. Talvez o critério leve em consideração o ritmo de crescimento, e nesse quesito o Brasil talvez seja, ao lado da China e da Índia, um dos que mais tem crescido na produção de Matemática de alto nível.

O fato é que se QI médio do brasileiro fosse realmente tão baixo quanto alega Richard Lynn, e o problema principal no Brasil fosse realmente o baixo QI médio da população, então as ações do IMPA não teriam sido capazes de modificar substancialmente a qualidade e a quantidade da produção matemática de alto nível. Se o problema fosse baixo QI, a solução viria de outras ações, como melhoras nutricionais, por exemplo. As ações do IMPA não alteraram o QI médio da população; apenas alteraram a eficiência na identificação de talentos que já existiam no país, e após a identificação passou a existir oferta de oportunidade e incentivo a esses talentos.

Os números apontados por Lynn, de que o QI médio do brasileiro seria 87, mostram-se inconsistentes com os resultados alcançados pelo IMPA. Mesmo com uma população de 213 milhões, seria difícil que algumas dessas pessoas chegassem ao topo mundial com raridade perto de 1 em 300 milhões se o Brasil estivesse 1 desvio padrão abaixo da média, mesmo porque o IMPA não consegue estender seus benefícios a mais do que 1% a 5% da população mais talentosa. Claro que outras hipóteses seriam aplicáveis, como um desvio padrão maior na distribuição de QI entre a população brasileira ou uma distribuição mais platicúrtica. Mas geralmente o que se observa em grupos com altura média menor é um desvio padrão mais estreito, em vez de mais largo. Isso acontece com praticamente todas as variáveis. O desvio padrão no diâmetro de parafusos maiores é mais largo do que em parafusos menores. Em outras palavras, o desvio padrão percentual geralmente é mantido, então seria estranho uma população com QI mais baixo ter desvio padrão maior. Além disso, seria um ajuste ad hoc para tentar salvar uma teoria que apresenta outros problemas, sendo mais plausível passar a navalha de Occam e aceitar que Lynn está equivocado sobre isso. O QI médio correto do brasileiro é substancialmente maior do que ele diz, assim como os QIs da maioria dos outros povos não-arianos, que ele tenta empurrar para baixo, também são maiores do que os números que ele apresenta.

Examinando objetivamente os fatos, o que os dados sugerem é que o QI médio do brasileiro provavelmente está bem mais perto de 95 do que de 87. Um pouco abaixo da média, mas não tão abaixo quanto Lynn sugere.

Os resultados do IMPA mostram também que talvez a preguiça seja um reflexo do péssimo sistema educacional. Se a preguiça fosse um problema generalizado no país, as soluções implementadas pelo IMPA também não teriam sido suficientes para resolver isso; seriam necessárias outras medidas complementares. Talvez a preguiça seja um problema marcante que atinge mais de 99% da população, mas cerca de 1% não poderia ser rotulada como “preguiçosa”, mas sim como vítima de um sistema educacional muito ruim. Como mais de 99% da produção intelectual vem desse 1%, temos aí um gigantesco problema, e uma completa falta de atenção sobre esse problema, porque os políticos não estão muito preocupados em empreender grandes esforços para conquistar 1% de votos, já que com menos esforço eles podem conseguir mais votos fingindo agradar a um público menos exigente, mais fácil de ludibriar e muito mais numeroso.

Um dos grandes problemas é que os 99% da população também são prejudicados, mas eles próprios não enxergam isso e não cobram do governo medidas que possam contribuir para melhorias a longo prazo, medidas que sejam boas e justas para todos. Cada um quer apenas que o governo adote medidas com resultados imediatos que beneficiem seus próprios umbigos. Desse modo, o problema tende a se perpetuar, como tem acontecido há décadas.

Muitos acadêmicos brasileiros costumam reclamar de falta de verbas e atribuir a baixa produção científica a isso. Outros fazem pior, fingem que há produção científica de boa qualidade no Brasil, apesar da falta de verba. Mas o que os fatos concretos mostram é que países realmente muito pobres, nos quais a maior parte da população vive na miséria, como Etiópia, Nigéria, Congo, Quênia, Gana etc. tiveram cidadãos laureados com o Nobel, enquanto no Brasil nunca houve um ganhador do Nobel. Além disso, quando Einstein desenvolveu seus principais trabalhos, pelos quais ele merecia 3 prêmios Nobel (e mais 2 por trabalhos posteriores), ele não estava recebendo nenhuma verba para suas pesquisas, nem nos anos anteriores. Portanto, embora a falta de recursos imponha limitações severas, não pode ser considerada um impedimento absoluto e muito menos ser usada como pretexto numa situação como essa. Grandes trabalhos foram realizados praticamente sem verba, como boa parte da obra de Newton, durante em 1665.

[Aqui talvez caiba uma pequena ressalva, porque conforme comentei na parte sobre prêmios e méritos, é possível que alguns brasileiros tenham realizado trabalhos com méritos para receber um Nobel, mas não foram laureados por questões políticas, burocráticas etc. Meus trabalhos sobre Econometria e Gerenciamento de Risco, por exemplo, são mais expressivos do que a maioria dos trabalhos dos laureados com o Nobel de Economia nas últimas décadas. A descoberta do méson π, embora tenha sido predominantemente um trabalho operacional, teve um brasileiro como protagonista (César Lattes), mas como o chefe da equipe era Celil Powell, Lattes tinha apenas um B.Sc. e na época (1950) o prêmio só era concedido ao chefe da equipe, Lattes acabou não recebendo o prêmio, embora tenha sido talvez o principal responsável por esse trabalho e foi o autor principal do artigo. Depois da detecção dos mésons π nos raios cósmicos (1947), Lattes era um dos poucos no mundo com o conhecimento necessário para identificar assinaturas deixadas por essas partículas nas placas de emulsão, por isso ele foi convidado a colaborar no CERN (1948) e verificar se eles também estavam conseguindo produzir mésons π, pois a energia necessária para isso era ultrapassada com folga pelo acelerador de partículas utilizado, portanto eles provavelmente já estavam produzindo pions há muito tempo (desde 1946), mas não sabiam exatamente o que deveriam procurar nas câmaras de bolha como sendo assinaturas dos mésons π. Lattes foi ao CERN e fez as identificações. Novamente o trabalho foi distinguido com o Nobel e novamente Lattes ficou fora da premiação. Ao todo, Lattes foi indicado 7 vezes para o Nobel, mas nunca chegou a ser premiado. Oswaldo Cruz também recebeu indicação ao Nobel de Medicina, mas não foi premiado. Talvez Machado de Assis também tivesse mérito para um Nobel de Literatura. Então, embora haja 0 brasileiros laureados com Nobel, talvez alguns tenham méritos para isso. Há um texto detalhado no qual analiso o caso de Lattes, sem os habituais exageros e distorções nacionalistas da maioria dos artigos sobre ele, mas ao mesmo tempo reconhecimento os méritos que ele teve e que não foram devidamente reconhecidos.]

Por um lado, a baixa produção científica reflete a falta de verba, por outro lado a falta de verba reflete a baixa produção científica, porque se houvesse realmente produção científica e tecnológica de boa qualidade, grandes empresas nacionais e internacionais teriam interesse em financiar essas pesquisas, pois teriam lucro com isso. Se empresas privadas não investem na ciência brasileira é porque tal “investimento” não gera expectativa de lucro, porque o nível de produção fica abaixo do que poderia justificar algum interesse sério dos empresários. Eu costumo usar o termo “doação” para a ciência brasileira em vez de “Investimento”, porque o significado de “investimento” é outro. O que os pesquisadores brasileiros reivindicam é basicamente isso: doação.

É importante deixar claro que não sou contra o financiamento da ciência brasileira, seja na forma de investimento, seja na forma de doação. Se eu fosse contra isso, seria uma estupidez. Eu sou contra a péssima gestão da verba destinada à Ciência, aliada ao péssimo sistema educacional e a completa falta de incentivo à produção intelectual. Produção intelectual não é escrever 50.000 papers inúteis para fingir que se está produzindo e continuar “mamando” nas bolsas das agências fomentadoras de “pesquisa”. Produção intelectual de verdade é se empenhar seriamente para resolver problemas reais e importantes. Por isso, em vez de ficar choramingando por falta de verba, o procedimento correto seria uma reformulação completa na palhaçada que acontece na Educação brasileira e na pesquisa “científica” brasileira, precisariam começar a produzir de verdade, com alta qualidade, como acontece no IMPA, e então apresentar fatos substanciais e argumentos consistentes para reivindicar investimentos. Sem isso, o discurso choroso para pedir doação é frágil. Certamente uma multidão de pesquisadores improdutivos me apedrejará por esse comentário, mas os poucos pesquisadores sérios concordarão comigo, embora talvez eles não tenham coragem de reconhecer publicamente a posição que defendem, para não serem linchados pelos colegas.

Talvez haja menos de 1% de pesquisadores sérios no Brasil, entre os quais tive a oportunidade de conhecer alguns, como Renato P. dos Santos, Roberto Venegeroles, André Gambaro, José Paulo Dieguez, Luis Anunciação, Antonio Piza, André Asevedo Nepomuceno, Herbert Kimura, Cristóvão Jaques, George Matsas, Doris Fontes entre outros. Mas infelizmente representam uma pequena fração, e nem sempre eles admitem abertamente a situação desastrosa em que se encontra a ciência brasileira, pois a pressão é grande para que finjam acreditar na encenação da qual a maioria dos outros faz parte. Quando a pessoa assume uma posição justa em relação a isso e diz verdades proibidas, ela começa a ser covardemente boicotadas por todos os lados, por isso é compreensível que muitos prefiram permanecer em silencia, evitando se manifestar, ou simplesmente fingir que concordam com a fantasia que tentam propagar a situação da Ciência e da Educação no Brasil. Muitos criticaram Copérnico devido ao prefácio de seu livro Revolutionibus, por ele não ter enfrentado de peito aberto as crenças dominantes, mas quando se analisa os problemas enfrentados por Galileu, fica claro que a defesa da verdade que contraria os interesses de determinados grupos pode ser muito oneroso. E seria ingênuo acreditar que as entidades que dominam o mundo atualmente (mídias, empresas, universidades, políticos etc.) sejam mais escrupulosos do que eram os eclesiásticos medievais. Certamente há algumas entidades mais idôneas e mais sinceramente empenhadas na defesa do que é certo e justo, mas são exceções, infelizmente. “Ironicamente” as mesmas pessoas que se mostram indignadas com a perseguição a Galileu são as pessoas que hoje praticam o mesmo tipo de abusos, injustiças e perseguições.

Essa é uma situação delicada, porque se a imensa maioria constrói uma farsa e finge que ela é real, torna-se difícil para que uma pequena minoria restabeleça a verdade. Por exemplo: Roberto de Andrade Martins é um pesquisador sério, com pós-doutorados em Cambridge e Oxford, com bons conhecimentos e boa compreensão de Física, Lógica e Epistemologia. Ele é completamente rechaçado pelos colegas e pelos que se dizem divulgadores “científicos”, porque Roberto diz verdades indesejáveis. Roberto nunca foi convidado para os grandes canais de divulgação científica do Brasil, embora ele seja de longe mais qualificado que a esmagadora maioria dos convidados para esses canais. Isso acontece porque nesses canais prefere-se as figuras mais “comerciais”, mais “carismáticas” aos olhos de quem finge se interessar por Ciência, em vez de cientistas sérios que digam verdades proibidas sobre a realidade trágica da ciência no país e da educação no país. Os youtubers que se dizem “divulgadores científicos” no brasil precisam escolher entre a verdade e a popularidade, e quase sempre preferem a segunda opção. Desse modo, vão arrastando uma farsa que em algum momento provocará o colapso do país, assim como aconteceu com a ex-URSS em 1991, ou com o banco Lehman Brothers em 2008. Foram varrendo a sujeira para baixo do tapete, até que chegou a um ponto em que a situação se torneou insustentável e o barraco caiu. Existem alguns poucos divulgadores científicos sérios no brasil, mas estes geralmente atingem um público muito menor, mais esclarecido e que já enxergam o problema sem que seja necessário que alguém mostre a eles. O público que realmente precisaria ser informado permanece “blindado”, para atender aos interesses de ninguém, já que ninguém lucrará com o naufrágio da nação. Certa vez Chomsky declarou que “o propósito da mídia não é o de informar o que acontece, mas sim moldar a opinião pública de acordo com a vontade do poder corporativo dominante”. Nesse caso é pior, porque não estão moldando a opinião pública de acordo com a vontade de ninguém. Estão apenas agindo estupidamente para o malefício de todos.

A hipocrisia é outro problema terrível que atinge grande número de acadêmicos brasileiros e de pseudo divulgadores da Ciência. Quando um estrangeiro vem ao brasil e diz que a ciência brasileira é uma piada, como fez Feynman, pisa e cospe na ciência brasileira, os acadêmicos brasileiros certamente não gostam, ficam envergonhados, mas mesmo assim eles aplaudem o macho alfa, como primatas bajuladores. Porém quando outro brasileiro aponta o mesmo problema, eles rosnam e vociferam contra o herege e tentam evitar que ele fale sobre isso.

Há mais algumas complicações que não podem ser negligenciadas: a maior parte da Ciência de ponta não tem aplicação imediata e pode levar décadas ou séculos até produzir algum retorno para o investidor. O diretor do departamento de Física Matemática da USP, Ph.D. pelo MIT e Post Doctoral pelo MIT, Antonio Fernando Ribeiro de Toledo Piza, que em 1994 quis me conhecer para conversar comigo sobre um trabalho que desenvolvi aos 19 anos, sobre um método para calcular fatoriais fracionários, no meio da conversa ele citou uma ocasião na qual perguntaram a Faraday para que serviam as descobertas que ele havia feito sobre a eletricidade e o magnetismo. Faraday respondeu com outra pergunta: “para que serve uma criança que acaba de nascer?” Essa frase exprime um problema complexo no tratamento da Ciência como “investimento”, porque a expectativa de vida humana atual é curta demais para que alguns investimentos em Ciência sejam enxergados como atraentes aos investidores particulares. São investimentos que só trarão retorno daqui a 50 anos, 100 anos ou mais, para as gerações seguintes, para nossos filhos, netos, bisnetos, é uma árvore que teremos o custo e o trabalho de plantar, adubar, cultivar, proteger, mas são nossos netos que colherão os frutos. Por esse motivo, mesmo em países nos quais a ciência se mostra prolífica, pode não ser atraente aos olhos dos investidores particulares, cujo horizonte de tempo que estão dispostos a aguardar por resultados costuma ser mais curto.

Feita essa ressalva importante, é necessário enfatizar que esse discurso seria falacioso se utilizado para tentar salvar a péssima reputação da ciência brasileira. O que se produz no brasil raramente pode sequer ser chamado “Ciência”. Faz-se tabulação de dados e relatórios descritivos sobre a tarefa. Para usar o argumento de Faraday a citei acima, em defesa do investimento na Ciência, antes seria necessário que o Brasil começasse a produzir Ciência de verdade.

Ciência de verdade envolve inovação, quebra de paradigma, aprimoramento real, análise crítica, profunda, que ultrapassa o óbvio e agrega algum conhecimento novo e útil ao legado da humanidade. No Brasil raramente se faz isso. Na verdade, no mundo raramente se faz isso, mas o nível de escassez de inovações é pior no Brasil do que em outros países com situação econômica similar ou com IDH similar.

Quando digo “quebra de paradigma” não precisa ser algo tão grandioso quanto um novo sistema cosmológico ou a uma teoria de unificação. Pode ser algo básico, como adicionar um pouco de boro às placas de emulsão fotográfica para preservar os registros dos mésons π até descer das montanhas, como fez César Lattes, ou resolver um problema de criptografia homomórfica que estava em aberto há 15 anos, como fez João Antonio L. J., ou desenvolver um novo sistema educacional que permite ensinar em 40 dias o conteúdo de 1 ano a uma criança que tinha notas abaixo da média e depois desses 40 dias a criança passa a ter as melhores notas da escola, como fez Tamara P. C. Rodrigues, ou revisar a fórmula de IMC, como eu fiz. São contribuições pequenas, mas que revelam fatos científicos ainda desconhecidos, ou corrigem conhecimentos que vinham sendo repetidos incorretamente há muito tempo, ou de algum modo contribuem para ampliar os horizontes do conhecimento ou para redirecionar o conhecimento para um caminho mais próximo da verdade. Não é uma completa desconstrução e reconstrução do conhecimento, como fez Newton, mas é um tijolo adicionado ao lugar certo, ou removido do lugar errado e reposicionado no lugar certo. Isso é o mínimo que seria esperado de um cientista, mas na grande maioria das vezes esse mínimo não é atendido, e os títulos de Ph.D. são distribuídos quase como um ritual, em que basta o candidato mostrar que sabe escrever e sabe interpretar um pouco do que esteja em alguns gráficos – com várias interpretações erradas, diga-se de passagem. Dependendo da disciplina, basta mostrar que sabe escrever, nem precisa saber ler um gráfico. Depois de cumprir o ritual, a pessoa recebe o rótulo de Ph.D. e começa a receber verba para prosseguir com essa palhaçada, fingindo que está produzindo Ciência.

A franca maioria das teses de doutorado e dos artigos científicos não apresenta nada de inovador. São títulos conferidos para inflar os egos e atender à vaidade das pessoas, mas não estão associados a nenhum mérito intelectual nem à produção científica original. A pessoa faz uma pesquisa elementar, puramente mecânica, para corroborar alguns resultados sobre os quais já existem centenas de outros estudos similares, e recebe um Ph.D. por isso, e o Estado paga a essas pessoas para fingir que estão produzindo algo relevante e chamam a isso “ciência brasileira”, mas o nome correto, na melhor das hipóteses, seria “tabulação de dados” e “relatórios descritivos”. Digo “na melhor das hipóteses” porque geralmente há vários erros crassos nesses procedimentos, o que torna a situação ainda mais vexatória.

O problema central é que não existe uma cultura de produzir inovações. Apenas repete-se interminavelmente. Não há incentivo à inovação, não há cobrança de inovações, não à recompensa para inovações e, o pior, há inclusive penalidades para inovações. Em 1998, uma amiga (Patrícia E. C.), que estava concluindo seu doutorado na USP, verificou que alguns dados experimentais sobre a morfologia de galáxia anãs era inconsistente com as expectativas. Em vez de seu orientador ajudá-la a tentar compreender o que poderia estar causando aquilo, ele disse a ela para refazer as medições, porque ela deveria ter errado nas medidas ou nos cálculos. Até esse ponto, concordo com ele, porque esses erros costumam ser os mais comuns. Ela refez e obteve resultados estatisticamente equivalentes aos das primeiras medições. Nesse ponto o alerta amarelo se torna vermelho e o orientador dela deveria ter dado mais atenção ao caso. Entretanto, ele disse para ela refazer outra vez! Isso é um completo absurdo. É anticientífico. É destruir “provas” que poderiam contribuir para ampliar, revisar, aprimorar o que se conhecia até então. Esse é o nível a que se encontra a seita chamada de “ciência brasileira”. Se alguma descoberta se opõe aos dogmas estabelecidos, precisa ser ajustada de alguma maneira até que fique em conformidade com os dogmas. Além de não haver incentivos às descobertas, quando há algum indício de que se pode estar diante a algo novo, tenta-se apagar os vestígios da possível descoberta! As pessoas são adestradas para não produzir, não inovar, não descobrir!

Parte do problema da Educação no país não é culpa dos professores, alunos e pesquisadores. Eles apenas dançam conforme a música. Mas uma grande parte do problema é culpa deles, porque eles determinam a música que deve tocar. Além disso, eles podem se recusar a dançar conforme a música, podem colocar fones de ouvido com músicas melhores e podem criar seu próprio centro de excelência, como no caso do IMPA.

A resistência da comunidade acadêmica em admitir esses fatos agrava a situação, porque em vez de tentar consertar os problemas, fingem que os problemas não existem, varrem a sujeira para baixo do tapete e seguem em frente, como se estivesse tudo bem. Recentemente o presidente do Brasil fez um corte brutal nas verbas destinadas à “ciência”. É uma situação delicada, porque o problema da improdutividade científica não se resolve assim. O corte de verba apenas agrava a situação. É ruim destinar verba a um setor que não gera resultados satisfatórios, mas sendo um setor fundamental, o procedimento correto é restaurar esse setor e assegurar que ele funcione como deveria, em vez de matá-lo, tirando-lhe o pão e a água. Precisaria trocar pão e água por uma dieta mais rica, aumentar o investimento em Ciência e simultaneamente reformular os critérios de concessão de bolsas, concessão de verbas, desburocratizar a importação de livros e de produtos científicos e tecnológicos, promover intercâmbios com pesquisadores capacitados, criar prêmios por mérito real relacionado à excelência na produção original de trabalhos relevantes, em vez dos prêmios políticos de fachada, entre muitas outras mudanças desde a educação de base até os títulos de professores eméritos.

Nos anos 1970, a China, a Índia e a Tailândia eram países muito mais pobres e menos desenvolvidos que o Brasil, mas fizeram investimentos massivos na identificação de crianças talentosas e ofereceram condições diferenciadas de incentivo a essas crianças. A Tailândia interrompeu o projeto. China e Índia mantiveram. Em menos de duas décadas, começaram a colher os frutos disso, depois de uma geração, essas crianças se tornaram professores altamente capacitados, que proporcionaram à geração seguinte uma educação ainda mais primorosa, e hoje a China caminha para se tornar a maior potência econômica, cultural, científica e tecnológica do mundo, e a Índia segue de perto. Houve uma reformulação séria e profunda no sistema de ensino para que pudessem chegar onde estão agora. Em vez de fingir que estavam fazendo Ciência, admitiram a improdutividade e a baixa qualidade do que produziam, e começaram a consertar o que estava errado. Um dos grandes problemas no Brasil é exatamente essa incapacidade de admitir os erros.

Footnotes

[1] Founder, Sigma Society; Creator, Sigma Test Extended.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 8, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/melao-1; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

*High range testing (HRT) should be taken with honest skepticism grounded in the limited empirical development of the field at present, even in spite of honest and sincere efforts. If a higher general intelligence score, then the greater the variability in, and margin of error in, the general intelligence scores because of the greater rarity in the population.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Hindemburg Melão Jr. on Gratitude and Clarifications, and Life, Views, and Work: Founder, Sigma Society (1)[Online]. June 2022; 30(A). Available from: https://in-sightjournal.com/melao-1.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 8). Conversation with Hindemburg Melão Jr. on Gratitude and Clarifications, and Life, Views, and Work: Founder, Sigma Society (1). Retrieved from https://in-sightjournal.com/melao-1.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Hindemburg Melão Jr. on Gratitude and Clarifications, and Life, Views, and Work: Founder, Sigma Society (1). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. June. 2022. <https://in-sightjournal.com/melao-1>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Hindemburg Melão Jr. on Gratitude and Clarifications, and Life, Views, and Work: Founder, Sigma Society (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. https://in-sightjournal.com/melao-1.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Hindemburg Melão Jr. on Gratitude and Clarifications, and Life, Views, and Work: Founder, Sigma Society (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (June 2022). https://in-sightjournal.com/melao-1.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Hindemburg Melão Jr. on Gratitude and Clarifications, and Life, Views, and Work: Founder, Sigma Society (1)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <https://in-sightjournal.com/melao-1>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Hindemburg Melão Jr. on Gratitude and Clarifications, and Life, Views, and Work: Founder, Sigma Society (1)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., https://in-sightjournal.com/melao-1.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Hindemburg Melão Jr. on Gratitude and Clarifications, and Life, Views, and Work: Founder, Sigma Society (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): June. 2022. Web. <https://in-sightjournal.com/melao-1>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Hindemburg Melão Jr. on Gratitude and Clarifications, and Life, Views, and Work: Founder, Sigma Society (1)[Internet]. (2022, June 30(A). Available from: https://in-sightjournal.com/melao-1.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on Research and God’s Power: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (3)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 8, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,347

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Tianxi Yu (余天曦) is a Member of God’s Power, CatholIQ, Chinese Genius Directory, EsoterIQ Society, Nano Society, and World Genius Directory. He discusses: balance; supporting the talented and supporting the innately disadvantaged; communication range; professional options; finances; love; redefine the idea of a successful life; women; individuals who flaunt or brag about their I.Q.s; inability to take personal responsibility for one’s destiny tied to the laziness; basic research question; scientific discovery and research; a good lesson to take from individuals seeking 15 minutes; A.I. or other future technologies; infinite funding; blockchain; oxidative stress; deep learning; vanity or the flaunting; mindset to a more positive one; a smart person; wealth gap; collectivistic; fools confrontational about facts; society get better at the bottom; beauty in the world; the shortcomings of the world; ethics; encryption and distributed architecture; human progress; rare Earth metals; spheres of geopolitical influence; longevity research; deep-learning systems; intuitive capacities; balance between showing off and not boasting; God’s Power; Chen Ning Yang; and maintain quality control on membership and on discussions of God’s Power.

Keywords: CatholIQ Society, Chinese Genius Directory, EsoterIQ Society, God’s Power, Nano Society, research, science, Tianxi Yu, World Genius Directory.

Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on Research and God’s Power: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (3)

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Should there be a balance between the development of the most talented into creative and scientific endeavours, and the devotion to helping individuals on the opposing side of the scale with various levels of mental and physical disabilities? Or should there be a skew of some form of resources devoted to the more talented due to the return on investment in this particular population?

Tianxi Yu (余天曦)[1],[2]*: I think the care for the weak should not be downgraded. The civilization of society is not the position of the strong, but more the posture of the weak. Many people with disabilities also make great contributions to the world.

Jacobsen: What are the considerations in Chinese society regarding supporting the talented and supporting the innately disadvantaged? Those natural variations in mental character?

Yu: Relative subsidies exist.

Jacobsen: Leta Stetter Hollingworth, apparently, proposed a communication range of 30 I.Q. points, unsure of the standard deviation, for effective communication. If true, and many in the high-I.Q. communities seem to accept this, then this would imply a truth to individuals of similar mental talent capable of equal comprehension, while geniuses, to non-geniuses, may appear as idiots, morons, or childlike. Although, simply claiming, “A lot of people believe this,” doesn’t make this more correct or even right in the first place. Regardless, does this seem true to you, as in “only people at the top of the world can understand each other”?

Yu: Yes, people at the relative bottom will never be able to understand the people standing at the top in their lifetime, and at best they can only be jealous and catch the lace. The top is often lonely because only a very small number of people can reach the top, and those who can’t understand are at the bottom for the rest of their lives.

Jacobsen: You have many professional options before you, especially in an international context, having talent, and in an era where personal and professional reinvention are necessities rather than options. What professions, at the moment, appeal to you, even if only temporarily?

Yu: Graduate student? At the moment, I am probably more interested in upgrading my education. but if I have to say a career, trader is more suitable for me at the moment. Although I said before that I like to do research work, but undergraduate degree in research work not many opportunities for promotion, may not even be a researcher for life.

Jacobsen: I remember the focus on the finances for you. It makes sense when not coming from money to want plentiful Yuan. Canadians are the same. If lacking family connections and monies, then they desire lots and lots of dollars. So, if you’ve shifted from financial focus to academic activities, what academic disciplines interest you?

Yu: Blockchain, oxidative stress, deep learning, etc.

Jacobsen: I have read about these trends in China, where the individuals do not want love because love gets mixed with obligations and responsibilities tied to extensive financial burdens over decades. Burdens in numerous areas in life. It shows structural issues in contradiction to individual sensibilities and values. People value love. Whereas, society continues to adjust to globalization, impacts from Covid-19 (and variants), and the wedge of economic inequality. Love fails in this environment. Partnership becomes practical oriented rather than intimacy oriented. Individuals revolt from this, East and West. Does this seem to reflect the issues mentioned about education costs, mortgage costs, and so on?

Yu: Yes, love is originally an act of mutual solicitation, people are self-interested animals, if the cost of love is much higher than the pleasure they can get, people will also give up courting.

Jacobsen: Following from the previous question, what if societies began to redefine the idea of a successful life? Similar to yourself, you shifted from a focus on money to academics.

Yu: I’d love to see that happen, that means we’re moving in a good direction

Jacobsen: Why do women make you weak in the legs?

Yu: Hahaha, that comes from a movie called “Rocky”, I just used that as a tease.

Jacobsen: Is it common among the high-I.Q. communities, more in interpersonal conversation rather than in public, to resent individuals who flaunt or brag about their I.Q.s? Is it similar to individuals who boast about professional associations (or professional associations that they claim to have) or individuals who they know (or claim to know)? Some will claim – and I’ve seen this in public fora – intelligence is simply the most important human trait.

Yu: It is very common, similar to the phenomenon you mentioned. Many people are in reality a loser, nothing professional skills, and the IQ community is the only relatively higher level circle they can access, so it is easy to inspire their vanity.

Jacobsen: Is inability to take personal responsibility for one’s destiny tied to the laziness, lack of motivation, procrastination, and so on? Even the idea, since so smart, people should simply hand them things in life, i.e., entitlement.

Yu: I do think that, for whatever reason, in the end it is the negativity that causes them not to take responsibility for this, and these negative factors are often the result of laziness, procrastination, etc.

Jacobsen: What is the basic research question asked in “Infectious disease risk calculation and storage system based on 3-tier network system”?

Yu: A 3-tier network system proposed for current information security and anonymization to address risk assessment of various infectious diseases.

Jacobsen: With scientific discovery and research as a core interest for you, what 5 streams of research are the most interesting to you? 

Yu: Hard to answer this question… I usually pay attention to the scientific achievements mainly to read what breakthroughs and representative papers inside the latest journals, not according to the direction I am interested in, only reading what I am interested in will make my vision become narrow. If I have to say, life science, magnetic structure, energy, blockchain, materials may be relatively more interested.

Jacobsen: You resent IQ boasters. Individuals who flaunt their IQ, whether real or fake. What seems like a good lesson to take from individuals seeking 15 minutes, or less, of fame?

Yu: Showing off can only look empty inside, just like when you say “you look like a fool” to Einstein, he has no ripples in his heart, but when you say “you look like a fool” to a fool, he will often argue with you.

Jacobsen: Do you think A.I. or other future technologies may narrow the gap between those at the top and those at the bottom?

Yu: No, gap will only get bigger, but the life of the bottom will also get better, but they are less likely to become the upper class.

Jacobsen: If you had infinite funding, so money was not an issue, what would like to do most?

Yu: First go around the world and see its beauty and shortcomings, then try to fill those shortcomings (charity, grants, foundations, etc.), and finally invest the money in disciplines that can make the world better: life sciences, information sciences, interdisciplinary disciplines, etc.

Jacobsen: What aspects of blockchain seem the most interesting to you?

Yu: Encryption technology and distributed architecture. The history of mankind is the history of the pursuit of security, of which cryptography is crucial because it is relatively abstract and therefore easily overlooked. But it is undeniable that it has been closely related to human progress.

Jacobsen: Is oxidative stress a solid foundation of research for longevity?

Yu: Correlation exists, and ROS is strongly associated with longevity. The relationship between oxidative stress and longevity is complex. In general, oxidative stress causes aging, but it has also been found that oxidative stress early in life prolongs lifespan.

Jacobsen: How is deep learning advancing?

Yu: Deep learning is the process of learning the intrinsic laws of sample data so that machines can have the same analytical learning ability as humans. The internal principle is also complex, let’s say a two-layer neural network, the first layer is called the coding layer and the second layer is called the decoding layer, input samples to train the first layer of RBM units and use their output to train the second layer of RBM models, stack the RBM models to improve the model performance by adding layers.

Jacobsen: Are there any controls on the vanity or the flaunting within the communities?

Yu: No, but generally no strength to show off will also be despised by others.

Jacobsen: How might they change their mindset to a more positive one? As they age, those thought and behaviour patterns simply become more fixed.

Yu: I have posted related my reflections on CHIN web and also admonished others not to be too impatient in the usual chat, hoping it would help them. I can reveal a little bit, the only Chinese society I am currently in-God’s Power (the president is Wu), will soon be joined by Chen Ning Yang, and there will be a lot of great people to follow, I hope these people will join to bring more positive influence, so that members can focus more on their own improvement. 

Jacobsen: Once a smart person knows of their smarts, you point out an equanimity. Not necessarily an internal calm, a simple self-knowledge, something unable to knock them off their feet, as in the Einstein example. Is the boasting and the look of emptiness inside of showing off more internally developed or externally influenced? Is this lack coming from inside or the pressure to perform coming from outside? 

Yu: I think the internal development of more general flaunting is a manifestation of low self-esteem and emptiness, in the case of not being recognized by the external environment internally affected, thus giving rise to low self-esteem or emptiness.

Jacobsen: If the wealth gap widens, how will this impact the structure of societies?

Yu: The situation is more complicated, in the case of insufficient resources, the gap between the rich and the poor will widen to make the society more unstable; if the resources are sufficient and the people at the bottom can live a very easy life, then the gap between the rich and the poor will not have too much impact on social stability.

Jacobsen: From the last question, how will this change the values of societies, whether individualistic or collectivistic? Although, the terms “individualistic” and “collectivistic” are, in a way, inaccuracies, approximations.

Yu: I hope it is collectivism, the individual can only go to promote the collective, but the result is not how the individual can influence.

Jacobsen: Why are fools confrontational about facts – making a fight where a dialogue or acceptance would be more useful?

Yu: Because they themselves do not know what the other side is talking about, what they say is not thought through, only want to tell others in the momentum he is not to be messed with.

Jacobsen: How will society get better at the bottom?

Yu: Depends on the level of social development and how it is developed.

Jacobsen: What is beauty in the world?

Yu: Beautiful scenery, beautiful people, pleasant acts of kindness, and feeling the care from the community.

Jacobsen: What are the shortcomings of the world?

Yu: Not big enough.

Jacobsen: The disciplines emphasized to make the world better seem devoted more to sciences: “life sciences, information sciences…” Science remains morally neutral, directly, and ethically informative, derivatively. What ethic should guide the findings of science to “make the world better”?

Yu: Philosophy.

Jacobsen: How are encryption and distributed architecture crucial to human progress?

Yu: Removing the traditional credibility so that the people can also enjoy affirmative action, also provides protection in terms of information security and personal safety.

Jacobsen: What factors determine human progress?

Yu: Human curiosity about the unknown.

Jacobsen: This distributed architecture, more or less, can refer to electronic infrastructure in nations, between nations, and orbiting the Earth. Rare Earth metals are crucial to their operation: lanthanum (57), cerium (58), neodymium (60), samarium (62), europium (63), terbium (65), and dysprosium (66). What could future shortages or attempts at monopolization of rare Earth metals by powerful geopolitical players make of global security with more for one group over others?

Yu: Unless we enter a period of extreme war, the impact of rare earth monopoly or not is not significant.

Jacobsen: Lee Kuan Yew spoke of the world of the 21st century as one transitioning from a unipolar world to a multipolar world with spheres of geopolitical influence. Does this seem like the future for 21st century?

Yu: Yes, I think so too.

Jacobsen: Which longevity research seems the most legitimate to you?

Yu: Inhibition of kidney-type glutaminase-dependent glutaminolysis in eliminates senescent cell; Immune drivers that induce aging in the organism’s brain; Prevention of mitochondrial damage or decline in mitochondrial function with age; NAD+ can restore age-related muscle degeneration; Small molecule ISR inhibitors hold promise for rejuvenating the brain…and so on

Jacobsen: As humans have variation in analytical ability, computers have differences in analytical capability. How close are deep-learning systems from achieving average-level human generalized intelligence in analytical domains?

Yu: Soon.

Jacobsen: How might intuitive capacities be built into machines?

Yu: Information between neurons is transmitted by electrical signals, which are detected and interpreted for the purpose of guiding the machine. However, the skull blocks/distorts the electrical signals, making this technique more difficult to implement.

Jacobsen: What is the proper balance between showing off and not boasting?

Yu: Whether it turns others off.

Jacobsen: Why join God’s Power?

Yu: Because I think God’s Power will become the No.1 high IQ society in China.

Jacobsen: How did Chen Ning Yang become part of it (soon)? Did he come to God’s Power? Or was he asked to join it?

Yu: Wu and Yang will have an interview in mid-June, and Yang has also accepted Wu’s invitation.

Jacobsen: How will you maintain quality control on membership and on discussions of God’s Power?

Yu: Lead them to struggle, stimulate their desire to struggle, and make them work harder for reality rather than for IQ scores.

Footnotes

[1] Member, God’s Power; Member, CatholIQ; Member, Chinese Genius Directory; Member, EsoterIQ Society; Member, Nano Society; Member, World Genius Directory.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 8, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/yu-3; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

*High range testing (HRT) should be taken with honest skepticism grounded in the limited empirical development of the field at present, even in spite of honest and sincere efforts. If a higher general intelligence score, then the greater the variability in, and margin of error in, the general intelligence scores because of the greater rarity in the population.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on Research and God’s Power: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (3)[Online]. June 2022; 30(A). Available from: https://in-sightjournal.com/yu-3.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 8). Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on Research and God’s Power: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (3). Retrieved from https://in-sightjournal.com/yu-3.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on Research and God’s Power: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (3). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. June. 2022. <https://in-sightjournal.com/yu-3>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on Research and God’s Power: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. https://in-sightjournal.com/yu-3.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on Research and God’s Power: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (June 2022). https://in-sightjournal.com/yu-3.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on Research and God’s Power: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (3)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <https://in-sightjournal.com/yu-3>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on Research and God’s Power: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (3)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., https://in-sightjournal.com/yu-3.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on Research and God’s Power: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): June. 2022. Web. <https://in-sightjournal.com/yu-3>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on Research and God’s Power: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (3)[Internet]. (2022, June 30(A). Available from: https://in-sightjournal.com/yu-3.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

Conversation with Justin Duplantis on Updates, Ordinary Education, Boys, Development, Reverse Classroom, and Fatherhood: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society (6)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 8, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,049

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Justin Duplantis works in computational biology and will complete his MBA specializing in data analytics this month. A lifetime member of the Triple Nine Society, he served as an Executive Committee member and Editor of their journal, Vidya. He is a father of two profoundly gifted boys, whom joined him in Mensa membership at the ages of two and three. Justin has interests in high IQ communities, intelligence, and intelligence research, as measured by IQ tests. Beyond that, he is a former professional billiards player and is currently playing in Israel in the Israeli Elite Hockey League (IEHL). He discusses: the big change in life; ordinary education; boys; the development of the child who hit the ceiling at 150; learning styles; a reverse classroom; the possible deviancies; relationship with executive positions and membership within the Triple Nine Society; developments in thoughts on fatherhood; the Ph.D.; and overall intellectual giftedness, as defined by IQ.

Keywords: Bill Nye, computational biology, data analytics, Justin Duplantis, No Child Left Behind, Triple Nine Society.

Conversation with Justin Duplantis on Updates, Ordinary Education, Boys, Development, Reverse Classroom, and Fatherhood: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society (6)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Apparently, a lot has changed since the last interview. So, first things first, what has been the big change in life for you?

Justin Duplantis[1],[2]*: So many things… I have diverged from my PhD pursuit and will complete my MBA in Data Analytics in just a few weeks. My son was diagnosed with medulloblastoma and went through nearly a year of treatment at St Jude Childrens Research Center. I am currently in Israel playing hockey in the IEHL. 

Jacobsen: We talked about giftedness and humane considerations last time. The idea of ‘human first, and gifted second,’ to paraphrase you. What is the range of intelligence best suited for ordinary education in America now?

Duplantis: One SD on either side should be considered normalized education. The key is the need for even more segmentation than one group below and one group above. At minimum, 3+ SD on either side should have specialized education beyond. Although statistically the population that would fall into these categories would make fielding a class impractical/improbable, the potential for bussing to a regional facility would be the optimal option.  

Jacobsen: Boys seem to be failing in numerous areas of education. Are there particular characteristics of asynchronous development amongst gifted boys even further exaggerated within this trend in education?

Duplantis: Speaking from a personal, rather than research-based perspective, males and females are stimulated by different things. This is not meant to be all-encompassing, rather a general rule. Regardless of intellect and age, males tend to be more boisterous and silly. The eye rolling from females begins early and follows us into old age. There are exceptions to every rule, but I am not one. My spouse has become an expert eye roller and her amusement for my dad jokes waned quickly.

Jacobsen: How is the development of the child who hit the ceiling at 150 now?

Duplantis: Both of my sons are in this range. They are now five and six years of age and are homeschooled. After much debate between my wife and I, we determined that was the best option for our family. They are both completing third grade work, at the moment. This puts my eldest a year or so ahead, with my youngest three.

Jacobsen: Is different learning styles a euphemism for excusing poor cognitive performance in general? Or are differing styles of learning a legitimate phenomenon, empirically?

Duplantis: Empirically! Homeschooling our boys has been a welcomed challenge in our home. When teaching concepts, especially mathematics, the way in which a concept is grasped is not necessarily the same for both boys. They are of relatively equivalent intellect, yet their minds work in much different ways.

Jacobsen: What is the proper way to draw a thread and set bounds for the educational pathway for the young? Bill Nye spoke of a reverse classroom, not his idea, probably, where students spend time learning more in their own time rather than more with teachers. I do not know if this will work in conditions with more dependent thinkers rather than more independent students. By “independent,” I do not mean bold morons who think without acting; I mean individuals who think things through more methodically prior to making decisions for themselves or before integration of information into their knowledge networks.

Duplantis: The fact of the matter is that it is vital for parents and loved ones that surround children to enhance and cultivate the learning experience and process. A classroom is only going to teach so much. The true learning, as Bill Nye is referencing, is done outside those walls. It comes down to supporting and cultivating the interests of your children. When they latch on to an interest, provide them with the proper resources, outings, and conversations to allow them to dive deeper. In early development, it does not matter what your child is reading, as long as they are learning to love it. 

Jacobsen: What are the possible deviancies, the pathways, for ‘troubled’ gifted youth? Any famous cases to exemplify some of these?

Duplantis: Idle hands…. The gifted often find themselves sitting in a class listening to a teacher repeat the same information over and over so the remedial students will grasp the concept. The passing of No Child Left Behind only exacerbated this by placing a strong emphasis on test scores. Teachers now, more than ever, need to ensure that all students are grasping the concepts prior to moving forward. The gifted are left thinking of ways to entertain themselves, which is oftentimes outside of the guidelines of the classroom rules. This is not a new phenomenon. In fact, pop culture has pointed to this for nearly 100 years. It is called evil genius after all….

Jacobsen: What is your relationship with executive positions and membership within the Triple Nine Society now?

Duplantis: Very little. In the most recent election there ended up being vacancies. I advised the Regent, Thorsten Heitzmann, that I would be willing to take up post. He opted to go with alternative volunteers.

Jacobsen: Any further developments in thoughts on fatherhood?

Duplantis: With my son having to go through cancer treatment it really put life into perspective. The most important thing is time. We will never get it back so one must cherish each moment. Hold your children, talk to them, spend time with them. They are only the age they are today, today. 

Jacobsen: Have you received the Ph.D., or not? Whether yes or no, what is the status of the research answer(s) to the original question(s)?

Duplantis: As mentioned previously, I have opted to go down a different route and am only pursuing research on a personal level for the enrichment of my children.

Jacobsen: How have you defined “overall intellectual giftedness, as defined by IQ” in the research?

Duplantis: To be clear, intellectual giftedness and IQ are different items, although oftentimes utilized interchangeably. One can be intellectually gifted in a certain subject without having an overall IQ that is noteworthy. My key interest are not in the general intellectually gifted, rather those with IQs in the 3+ SD range. This is where the commonality of characteristics shine through most. I care not only about the education of these individuals, but their mental fortitude in a world that is not built for their speed.

Footnotes

[1] Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society; Former Editor, Vidya; Former Executive Committee Member, Triple Nine Society.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 8, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-6; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

*High range testing (HRT) should be taken with honest skepticism grounded in the limited empirical development of the field at present, even in spite of honest and sincere efforts. If a higher general intelligence score, then the greater the variability in, and margin of error in, the general intelligence scores because of the greater rarity in the population.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Justin Duplantis on Updates, Ordinary Education, Boys, Development, Reverse Classroom, and Fatherhood: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society (6) [Online]. June 2022; 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-6.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 8). Conversation with Justin Duplantis on Updates, Ordinary Education, Boys, Development, Reverse Classroom, and Fatherhood: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society (6) . Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-6.

Brazilian Natio0ffffffnal Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Justin Duplantis on Updates, Ordinary Education, Boys, Development, Reverse Classroom, and Fatherhood: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society (6). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A, June. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-6>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Justin Duplantis on Updates, Ordinary Education, Boys, Development, Reverse Classroom, and Fatherhood: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society (6).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-6.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Justin Duplantis on Updates, Ordinary Education, Boys, Development, Reverse Classroom, and Fatherhood: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society (6).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (June 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-6.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Justin Duplantis on Updates, Ordinary Education, Boys, Development, Reverse Classroom, and Fatherhood: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society (6)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-6>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Justin Duplantis on Updates, Ordinary Education, Boys, Development, Reverse Classroom, and Fatherhood: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society (6)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-6.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Justin Duplantis on Updates, Ordinary Education, Boys, Development, Reverse Classroom, and Fatherhood: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society (6).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): June. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-6>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Justin Duplantis on Updates, Ordinary Education, Boys, Development, Reverse Classroom, and Fatherhood: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society (6) [Internet]. (2022, June 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-6.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

Conversation with Entemake Aman (阿曼) on the Chinese, Chinese Culture, and Chinese Schooling: Member, OlympIQ Society (3)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 8, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,025

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Entemake Aman ( 阿曼 ) claims an IQ of 180 (SD15) with membership in OlympIQ. With this, he claims one to be of the people with highest IQ in the world. He was born in Xinjiang, China. He believes IQ is innate and genius refers to people with IQ above 160 (SD15). Einstein’s IQ is estimated at 160. Aman thinks genius needs to be cultivated from an early age, and that he needs to make achievements in the fields he is interested in, such as physics, mathematics, computer and philosophy, and should work hard to give full play to his talent. He discusses: the Chinese of today; other interests of Chinese people of the older generations; “good learning” as high I.Q.; basic philosophical premise of Chinese education; Mensa stopped testing in China; Wayne Zhang; Qiao Han Sheng; known Chinese high-I.Q. community members in OlympIQ; Sheng Han’s I.Q. Society; the answers of “slseii, slse48 and numerus”; Wen-chin su; the best universities in China; Chinese education and intensive study; exam oriented style of education; the division between science and liberal arts; English emphasized in the education; get into the top university; fate; exam oriented educational system; key middle schools; Chinese education; unlikely to do well in Chinese education; and the major math and physics competitions in China.

Keywords: China, Chinese Culture, Chinese Schooling, Entemake Aman, OlympIQ Society.

Conversation with Entemake Aman (阿曼) on the Chinese, Chinese Culture, and Chinese Schooling: Member, OlympIQ Society (3)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: If I.Q. doesn’t interest the Chinese of today, or “only a few people,” what interests modern Chinese people of the young generation? What interests Chinese people of the older generations?

Entemake Aman (阿曼)[1],[2]*: Young people in China are interested in online games, mobile Tiktok apps and other projects. The old man is interested in chess and playing cards.

Jacobsen: Following from the previous question, what are other interests of Chinese people of the older generations?

Aman: The older generation of Chinese are interested in chess, playing cards and the entertainment equipment in the nursing home. In China’s IQ circle, I haven’t seen anyone with an IQ of more than 160 (SD15) and over the age of 60.

Jacobsen: How do Chinese nationals interpret “good learning” as high I.Q., or as a proxy for higher intelligence?

Aman: In China, the IQ of those who study very well is generally between 120 and 130. They often get close to full marks in physics and mathematics. This gives ordinary people the impression that they are geniuses.

Jacobsen: Why has Mensa stopped testing in China?

Aman: Because the former chairman of Mensa didn’t run it well. And British Mensa won’t let it be held in China again.

Jacobsen: What makes Wayne Zhang known in Chinese high-I.Q. culture?

Aman: Wayne Zhang is very low-key. He is the first Olympiq member in China. He is from Shanghai. I haven’t heard anything about him for 10 years.

Jacobsen: What makes Qiao Han Sheng known in Chinese high-I.Q. culture?

Aman: He is the founder of HRIQ (the threshold is 146.3, SD15) association and is well-known.

Jacobsen: Who are the other known Chinese high-I.Q. community members in OlympIQ now?

Aman: Olympiq has several Chinese who cheated in, but there is no evidence. Because some test answers leaked. I hope you can contact Jon and tell him about it. There is also Wang Peng, a well-known member of Olympiq. He once published a book about Mensa

Jacobsen: How is Sheng Han’s I.Q. Society building membership? What are the tests taken for membership into the society?

Aman: Chen Wen Jin is the founder of Sheng Han. His association accepts IQ tests designed by him.

Jacobsen: Who leaked the answers of “slseii, slse48 and numerus”?

Aman: Some people with strong vanity and insufficient IQ leaked it. Anyway, some super high scores in China can’t be trusted. China has 15 people with an IQ of more than 170sd15.

Jacobsen: What was the test Wen-Chin Su scored highest on?

Aman: Numerus Classic 36/36.

Jacobsen: How does Chinese education and intensive study for 12 years differ from other countries of the world?

Aman: Anyway, I feel very hard. I’m not very clear about education abroad, but I heard that education in the United States as a child focused on interest, talent and happiness.

Jacobsen: Is the exam oriented style of education good or bad, in your opinion?

Aman: For most ordinary people (those with IQ below 130, SD15), exam oriented education is good, but it’s too hard. I don’t think it’s good for people with an IQ of more than 130, SD15, because I think we should pay more attention to the talents and interests of people with high IQ, rather than just reciting a lot of knowledge.

Jacobsen: Why the division between science and liberal arts?

Aman: Because universities need to choose majors that pay attention to liberal arts and science when choosing majors, and liberal arts majors pay more attention to recitation.

Jacobsen: Also, why is English emphasized in the education?

Aman: Because English is an international language, some college graduates will study abroad after graduation.

Jacobsen: What score does one need out 750 to get into the top university in the country?

Aman: Most of the top universities in the United States do not accept China’s college entrance examination.

Jacobsen: You mentioned, “Fate.” Why does education determine one’s fate in Chinese society?

Aman: Only when you enter a good university can you have the opportunity to enter a high paying company. Large companies pay attention to college entrance examination scores and the university popularity.

Jacobsen: When does this exam oriented educational system begin for Chinese youth, e.g., age, grade, etc.?

Aman: First grade at the age of 6 to 7 and high school at the age of 15 to 18.

Jacobsen: Why are key middle schools and good teachers the most important for the trajectory of one’s life in Chinese society?

Aman: It’s hard to get high marks in China’s college entrance examination. You must have good teachers to teach you. My personal experience tells me that if the teacher doesn’t teach well, probably there will be no good results in the college entrance examination.

Jacobsen: How does Chinese education fail geniuses?

Aman: Among the 15 Chinese with an IQ of more than 170 (sd15), none of them went to Tsinghua University and Peking University. Most of them went to ordinary universities. China’s education pays great attention to recitation and the application of knowledge. The requirement of g factor in the college entrance examination is 120. The rest depends on non intellectual factors such as effort, teachers and luck. And there are only four to six Chinese universities in the world’s top 100.

Jacobsen: Why are I.Q.s above 140, in your opinion, unlikely to do well in Chinese education (and so society)?

Aman: China’s college entrance examination system pays more attention to recitation and the ability to use knowledge. Smart people from 120 to 130 can go to Tsinghua University and Peking University through efforts, but it is very difficult and needs to work very hard. 1 3000 students can go to these two universities. IQ over 140 (SD15) doesn’t have much advantage in the college entrance examination. IQ over 140 (SD15) is more active in thinking. I think we should pay more attention to their innovative thinking and imagination can make them become talents.

Jacobsen: What are the major math and physics competitions in China?

Aman: Only students from key senior high schools are eligible to participate in the physics competition and mathematics competition of Chinese senior high school students.

Footnotes

[1] Member, OlympIQ Society; Member, Mensa International.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 8, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/aman-3; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

*High range testing (HRT) should be taken with honest skepticism grounded in the limited empirical development of the field at present, even in spite of honest and sincere efforts. If a higher general intelligence score, then the greater the variability in, and margin of error in, the general intelligence scores because of the greater rarity in the population.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Entemake Aman (阿曼) on the Chinese, Chinese Culture, and Chinese Schooling: Member, OlympIQ Society (3)[Online]. June 2022; 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/aman-3.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 8). Conversation with Entemake Aman (阿曼) on the Chinese, Chinese Culture, and Chinese Schooling: Member, OlympIQ Society (3). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/aman-3.

Brazilian Natio0ffffffnal Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Entemake Aman (阿曼) on the Chinese, Chinese Culture, and Chinese Schooling: Member, OlympIQ Society (3). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A, June. 2022. <http://www.in-sfffffightpublishing.com/aman-3>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Entemake Aman (阿曼) on the Chinese, Chinese Culture, and Chinese Schooling: Member, OlympIQ Society (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/aman-3.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott Conversation with Entemake Aman (阿曼) on the Chinese, Chinese Culture, and Chinese Schooling: Member, OlympIQ Society (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (June 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/aman-3.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Entemake Aman (阿曼) on the Chinese, Chinese Culture, and Chinese Schooling: Member, OlympIQ Society (3)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/aman-3>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Entemake Aman (阿曼) on the Chinese, Chinese Culture, and Chinese Schooling: Member, OlympIQ Society (3)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/aman-3.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Entemake Aman (阿曼) on the Chinese, Chinese Culture, and Chinese Schooling: Member, OlympIQ Society (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): June. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/aman-3>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S.  Conversation with Entemake Aman (阿曼) on the Chinese, Chinese Culture, and Chinese Schooling: Member, OlympIQ Society (3)[Internet]. (2022, June 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/aman-3.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

Conversation with Matthew Scillitani on the Giga Society and the Realizations: Member, Giga Society (7)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 8, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,135

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Matthew Scillitani, member of The Glia Society and The Giga Society, is a web developer and SEO specialist living in North Carolina. He is of Italian and British lineage, and is predominantly English-speaking. He earned his bachelor’s degree in psychology at East Carolina University, with a focus on neurobiology and a minor in business marketing. He’s previously worked as a research psychologist, data analyst, and writer, publishing over three hundred papers on topics such as nutrition, fitness, psychology, neuroscience, free will, and Greek history. You may contact him via e-mail at mattscil@gmail.com. He discusses: the Giga Society; the point; the main cautionary notes about high-I.Q. communities; the benefits; self-knowledge; education; exciting developments; major disappointments; and having children.

Keywords: Giga Society, Matthew Scillitani, realization, self-knowledge.

Conversation with Matthew Scillitani on the Giga Society and the Realizations: Member, Giga Society (7)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Do you think the Giga Society has fulfilled its function as an incentive for taking high-range tests?

Matthew Scillitani[1],[2]*: Yes, absolutely. Many people have told me they’ve taken several (sometimes dozens) high-range I.Q. tests to try to qualify. Qualifying for the the Giga Society wasn’t something I even considered as a possibility for myself until I finished Psychometric Qrosswords though, the test I eventually qualified with.

Jacobsen: A question sitting in the backs of a lot of people’s minds, “What is the point?” Why take part in the societies? Why take these tests? What purpose do these fulfill in personal terms and in practical benefit outside of the provision of some fun puzzles to solve?

Scillitani: Well, joining high-I.Q, societies used to be one of the few ways to actually correspond with other intelligent people in the pre-internet era. With how many internet forums there are now, societies are largely unnecessary for that purpose though I think. The main reasons I’ve joined high-I.Q. societies was to either take free I.Q. tests or for some minor recognition. It’s not an achievement to have a high I.Q. but it’s always nice to be recognized for having some positive quality about you, like being freakishly tall or abnormally handsome or whatever. Something else I get out of these societies, most notably Paul Cooijmans’ Glia Society, is lots of communication with other members on topics like STEM, politics, religion, and so forth. Some members who have very bright ideas also present them to the society for feedback, which is another benefit of membership. There are other benefits too, like being able to publish papers, puzzles, and play games like chess against wickedly smart opponents, to name a few.

As for taking the tests, I took my first high-range I.Q. test after seeing an interview of Rick Rosner and thinking, ‘I wonder how I’d score on one of those tests.’ After I got my results I had the typical dopamine rush one gets when they do well on something and was immediately hooked and took even more tests. The benefit of test-taking outside of learning about your own intellectual capabilities and for fun is the most important reason of all: to contribute to the research of intelligence and genius. If we can learn which qualities make a genius and can accurately measure them then that’ll go a long way in discovering potential geniuses when they’re young. Maybe there are 500 geniuses on Earth right now but 450 of them have been tossed aside and are working jobs far below their ability level. Very few geniuses are “charismatic” so it happens very often that their geniusness is mistaken for stupidity and they go unnoticed their whole lives. With accurate testing, this can be avoided and we’ll have many more geniuses to aid in the advancement of mankind.

Jacobsen: What are the main cautionary notes about high-I.Q. communities for you?

Scillitani: Hmm, so far I haven’t had many bad experiences in any high-I.Q. communities I’ve been in. There are a few members with weak egos who are quick to anger but aside from that I’d say people with high I.Q.s are more respectful, polite, mentally stable, ethical, and kind than in the general population. If someone ever founds a town of only high-I.Q. society members I’d move there.

Jacobsen: What are the benefits to those who take part in healthy high-I.Q. community life?

Scillitani: The benefits I listed in a previous question apply here too but I’ll add that it is also a great way to make high-quality friends.

Jacobsen: How has self-knowledge, at least, of a higher I.Q. than the norm of the population influenced personal decisions to pursue higher education?

Scillitani: It hasn’t influenced my decisions too much regarding education. I was enrolled in a university before I ever took a high-range I.Q. test or joined any societies, although I considered dropping out several times because I have an extreme dislike of school. I would say on a positive note that it definitely boosted my confidence to know my I.Q. score and be a member of high-I.Q. societies. In terms of education, nothing seems off limits or scary to deal with for me. I passed Calculus I and II collectively in under two months after teaching them to myself, and I wouldn’t have had the confidence to do that prior to knowing my I.Q. score.

Jacobsen: It’s been a hot minute since we last chatted. How is education going, by the way?

Scillitani: I’ve moved away from psychology and business and am now pursuing a degree in Computer Science! I’m hoping I can find a stable day job and make some cool apps in my spare time so I can hopefully retire at an early age.

Jacobsen: Any new, fun, or exciting developments on the educational front?

Scillitani: There’s nothing too exciting going on aside from being somewhat close to getting another degree. I think I’m just ten or so classes away from that.

Jacobsen: What are your major disappointments with the high-I.Q. communities? I’ve had two people, recently, comment on this to me. One left a high-I.Q. society. Another wanted all listings online completely removed from them. So, in this light, people can be disillusioned from prior expectations or considerations about those communities. Many gain some modicum of benefit. While, at the same time, I get those stories, too. The question seems apt with the two recent cases.

Scillitani: My biggest disappointment by far is from something I’ve learned from high-I.Q. communities and not something regarding those communities themselves. Maybe this will come across as arrogant but what I learned is that most people, the extreme majority even, have incredibly weak mental powers. If you do well on an I.Q. test there will be many problems that you solve instantly and think even a toddler could get but when you learn that most people get every single answer wrong or can only answer one or two problems correctly it shatters the illusion that everyone around you is able to actually form coherent thoughts.

Jacobsen: Do you think having children influenced the perspective on getting things more right the next time around with proper facilitation and education of the gifted young?

Scillitani: I don’t have any kids yet (aside from my dachshund, who I treat like a child). I was a child myself once though, and I definitely want to have my future children I.Q. tested at an early age to help figure out how to best accommodate their educational needs. I’d like them to be with children their own age so rather than skipping grades there may be private school options for gifted children that my wife and I can look into. They could always be intellectually average though; we’ll just have to wait and see.

Footnotes

[1] Member, Giga Society; Member, Glia Society. Bachelor’s Degree, Psychology, East Carolina University.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 8, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/scillitani-7; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

*High range testing (HRT) should be taken with honest skepticism grounded in the limited empirical development of the field at present, even in spite of honest and sincere efforts. If a higher general intelligence score, then the greater the variability in, and margin of error in, the general intelligence scores because of the greater rarity in the population.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Matthew Scillitani on the Giga Society and the Realizations: Member, Giga Society (7) [Online]. June 2022; 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/scillitani-7.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 1). Conversation with Matthew Scillitani on the Giga Society and the Realizations: Member, Giga Society (7) . Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/scillitani-7.

Brazilian Natio0ffffffnal Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Matthew Scillitani on the Giga Society and the Realizations: Member, Giga Society (7). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A, June. 2022. <http://www.in-sfffffightpublishing.com/scillitani-7>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Matthew Scillitani on the Giga Society and the Realizations: Member, Giga Society (7).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/scillitani-7.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Matthew Scillitani on the Giga Society and the Realizations: Member, Giga Society (7).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (June 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/scillitani-7.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Matthew Scillitani on the Giga Society and the Realizations: Member, Giga Society (7)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/scillitani-7>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Matthew Scillitani on the Giga Society and the Realizations: Member, Giga Society (7) ’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/scillitani-7.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Matthew Scillitani on the Giga Society and the Realizations: Member, Giga Society (7).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): June. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/scillitani-7>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S.  Conversation with Matthew Scillitani on the Giga Society and the Realizations: Member, Giga Society (7) [Internet]. (2022, June 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/scillitani-7.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–2022. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

Conversation with Tomáš Perna on German Nazism, God, Virtue, Freedom of the Will, and Scientific Discourse: Member, World Genius Directory (2)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 8, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,408

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Tomáš Perna is a Member of the World Genius Directory and United Giga Society. He discusses: the family fight against German Nazism; the heroic stories; theology; simple countrywoman; police inspection; the emotional sense of aloneness; denomination of Christianity; the 4D-differential structure; commercial software; the common sense of quantum theory and relativity; the fundamental definition of philosophy; maths; I.Q. tests; the administered test in the design office; isolation; Socrates; Shakespeare; Newton; Euler; Poe; Mácha; Einstein; the natural or organic aesthetics of parsimony; mastery of the norms of an environment; numerical and logical capacities of computers; the explanatory gap between the human Central Nervous System and digital computational systems; the soul; God; symbolic parables; non-denominational, non-religious theism; scientific research; the prime virtues; Nature; Theologians; free will; human possibilities and natural limitations; Entities-Identity searching; Idealism; and our identities.

Keywords: freedom of the will, German Nazism, God, science, Tomáš Perna, United Giga Society, virtues, World Genius Directory.

Conversation with Tomáš Perna on German Nazism, God, Virtue, Freedom of the Will, and Scientific Discourse: Member, World Genius Directory (2)

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: How did the father of your mother and his brothers fight against German Nazism?

Tomáš Perna[1],[2]*: Well, it was in the framework of intelligence service and resistance activities organized by the group called Clay Eva in North Moravia (a part of Reichsprotektorat Böhmen und Mähren). Two brothers of my grandfather were directly involved in the leadership of the organization. My grandfather had contacts and was trying to use and activate them for the group´s goals. The whole group was finally betrayed by one of its closest cooperators. 

Jacobsen: What were some of the heroic stories, if the family stories can be told in a public forum, in fighting against the National Socialists of Weimar Germany?

Perna: As I have mentioned above, it was in the Reichsprotektorat, not in Weimar Germany in its concrete sense. As to your question – I feel that I cannot highlight some particular act, there were many “everyday acts” of their heroism. I admire that (during their arrest by Gestapo) they withstand horrible tortures without betraying of any person or contact of the group. It is already very hard to imagine it.

Jacobsen: As an admixture of Czech, Polish, and Italian, Christians, was theology or doctrine discussed much in the family home?

Perna: Not directly, my parents, especially father, explained to me that the world gives no sense without a deep belief in God.

Jacobsen: What was the story of this “simple countrywoman”? It has been said: Intelligence is passed matrilineally. Maybe, not so simple after all, perhaps.

Perna: If it is really the case, then I can express the term “simple countrywoman” in other words: despite her hard destiny, she accepted it without any word of complaint or some “babbling”. She prayed for all people every evening, not only for family members.

Jacobsen: What was the era of police inspection like for your mother’s father? He wouldn’t have had the kinds of technology and techniques available now. Ingenuity may have been an asset.

Perna: Maybe. I know very little about his “criminal cases”. In so far as I know, he would have had to be promoted into one of the highest positions of the police as a young man yet. But … returning home from the service everyday, there were three pubs on the way. He successfully missed them all, but not always the last one … the only contraindication of his promotion, as it was used to say. 

Jacobsen: How did you cope with the emotional sense of aloneness?

Perna: Many of the very sensitive people can feel themselves as being emotionally alone. I am not an exception. However, if these are your basic feelings that are not understood or accepted, even partially at least, then your heart becomes alone. The resulting deep sadness cannot be explained out of the heart´s tears.

Jacobsen: What denomination of Christianity, if any, for both parents?

Perna: If any, then a catholic one I would say.

Jacobsen: Does this echo into any views for you, today?

Perna: Of course. In no resignation on a deep sense of things that could seem to be absurd at the first look.

Jacobsen: What is the 4D-differential structure?

Perna: From the calculus we know, how to differentiate functions up to 3D and only locally in 4D. The 4D-differential structure is a way of how to differentiate symmetry related functions in 4D globally.

Jacobsen: How is this applied to commercial software?

Perna: Hard to answer shortly – Roughly speaking, commercial software, mostly based on the finite element modelling method (FEM), should make a job of numerical simulations of some problems of physical reality prevailing. The goal is to understand the problems in more detail. The shortcoming is that you can never know what is an underlying mathematical model (if it exists) of the simulated problem. Using 4D, you can design a mathematical model of the problem at first and solve it subsequently, or solve existing one. Then you design a mathematical model of the FEM-simulation-process itself and by comparing the real and FEM-mathematical models, you can optimize parameters of how the FEM-simulations can be most effectively employed (calibrated). It saves a lot of computational hours and helps to avoid a non-existent phenomena emergence at FEM-simulation-results.

Jacobsen: What is, in short, the common sense of quantum theory and relativity?

Perna: Considering a moving particle, I would say that relativity is more affine to its mass-behavior, while quantum theory to its charge configurations. Charge conjugate solutions of problems are basically connected with the wave associated with a particle, so, without a charge, there were no wave-particle complementarity, or vice versa respectively. Thus, a wave-particle complementarity implies a fundamental quantum-relativistic feature of the physical problems on the elementary level. Common sense itself is mediated via the Golden mean, now slowly emerging in quantum theory. What is an elementary level, however?

Jacobsen: What is the fundamental definition of philosophy to you?

Perna: Oh, Jesus! So, I think that philosophy is an instrument of how to find a sense of existence and being within a finiteness of limitations and explains the difference between both.

Jacobsen: How did maths win over your heart (sorry, philosophy)?

Perna: I can only repeat one point of view, according to which maths is an applied philosophy. When you practice a philosophy, then after a little time, maths starts to emerge itself and perhaps together with vibrations of poetry within your concepts, if meaningfully grasped. 

Jacobsen: How are I.Q. tests trickily addictive for you? How did you cut the habit – so to speak – if, indeed, you did?

Perna: Like any “winning game” which need not to be naturally rooted, but is requiring an engagement of a promising thinking process. You must not become a “gambler”, retrying to solve the problems that are unsolvable for you or that are unsolvable at all, being not correctly posted. Fortunately, due to a complete lack of time, I have almost stopped IQ-testing.

Jacobsen: Why didn’t the administered test in the design office state the I.Q. to you? It seems like a common thing, and unfortunate. Any idea as to the rationale behind it?

Perna: I have taken 2 administered IQ tests, 160 and 172 in SD15. However, independently of their origin, I like deep symbolical problems as a basis for any IQ testing; and I don´t like working memory tests.

Jacobsen: What if loners confuse their self-isolation or socially imposed isolation as a mark of genius for themselves when, in fact, they happen to be ordinary or morons with a tendency to self-isolate/with poor social skills?

Perna: If poor social skills, then an isolation regarded by them as a mark of genius brings only more suffering for themselves. I regret to say that many outsiders are suspected to have poor social skills, including people without a home. That is unacceptable either for IQ 90, or 150+, e.g., since it carries a leading feature of ignorance.

Jacobsen: It was a short answer. However, I’ll have to parse it into some more depth, even singular statements or opinions on each. Why/how was Socrates a genius?

Perna: I guess that Socrates had revealed moral patterns that inspired Plato to consider the deep role of archetypes as “generators” of a common sense of things.

Jacobsen: Why/how was Shakespeare a genius?

Perna: Hamlet.

Jacobsen: Why/how was Newton a genius?

Perna: Calculus.

Jacobsen: Why/how was Euler a genius?

Perna: As one of the personifications of great natural science.

Jacobsen: Why/how was Poe a genius?

Perna: Deep sensitiveness together with great analytical skills and ideas covered ingeniously by popular forms.

Jacobsen: Why/how was Mácha a genius?

Perna: He wrote the poem “Máj” (May) that is a very basis of romanticism in poetry itself. More strong than Byron´s works.

Jacobsen: Why/how was Einstein a genius?

Perna: Relativity.

Jacobsen: Is the attribute of new ideas with beauty a means by which to describe the natural or organic aesthetics of parsimony seen in some novel concepts?

Perna: One of the most fundamental properties of beauty is symmetry of revealed forms of Nature. If the symmetry is not an illusion, then it is coupled together with the least action principle at manifesting a dance of phenomena. A tendency to reduce a possible meaning of things to be graspable by rational languages can be a very dangerous parsimony substituting this least action in some novel approaches to the understanding of Nature.

Jacobsen: How do so many with profound intelligence become rock solid ordinary rather than other than this? Is it a mastery of the norms of an environment becoming ossified?

Perna: Yes, completely.

Jacobsen: How do numerical and logical capacities of computers far outstrip human capabilities?

Perna: What should I say? – The comparison itself is nonsensical; otherwise, the answer could be primitive: like a Ferrari is faster than Bolt. Nevertheless, some guys got mad and declared that they have found out an artificial consciousness 🙂 :).

Jacobsen: What is the explanatory gap between the human Central Nervous System and digital computational systems in the realm of the symbolic?

Perna: None in general. There could be some metaphysical approaches to this problem yet, but it is a pure waste of time. The consciousness condition is an existence of neurons. So, if you want to consider the explanatory gap, then you should be able to construct a language learnable and usable by conscious zombies.

Jacobsen: What is the substance vis-à-vis the soul of a human being, i.e., the relation of this substance to God and the God to the substantive of a human being, the soul?

Perna: I would have to be God to be able to answer your question. I think that the human soul cannot be self related or self-dual, respectively, because there arises the question, within which such self-duality could be able to exist to be recognized. Paradoxically speaking then, the fact that God is the essence of our souls (in “vis-à-vis” way, if you want) as parts of Him, is or can be experienced only via the belief in God.

Jacobsen: As God gives identity to me, as a substantive impression of the soul upon me for me – the persona, person, or identity, “Scott Douglas Jacobsen” – to exist in the first place, is this eternal manifestation something in which the temporal manifests as my identity in my lifetime while embedded in this fundament of the eternal? If so, what is cut between the eternal and ‘aeternal’ – so to speak, or the atemporal and the temporal? Where does this truncation or demarcation take place?

Perna: The individual identity given by God is a miracle. I only feel that God, being completely conscious of your consciousness, provides you with your individual identity over all times. Otherwise, you can become one Smith of all Smiths due to the above-mentioned self-duality. On the other hand, a temporarily unique measure in which you personally can be conscious of your consciousness can be called as “Scott Douglas Jacobsen”.

Jacobsen: Do symbolic parables delimit consciousness and permit a mental landscape beyond the numeric and the logical for a “chance to touch God”?

Perna: Yes, the richer the above-mentioned measure, the greatest chance to be conscious of a touch of God. Only symbolic parables out of any rational languages can be generated by this measure; Rationality is limited by itself.

Jacobsen: Does non-denominational, non-religious theism make the most sense of you – with “humility and deepness of heart”?

Perna: Yes. At the same time, we should be aware that Christ does not belong to any denomination or religion. If owned by any such system, then he cannot be the Son of God and the “owning system” suffers from superiority.

Jacobsen: Does scientific research play a role in the theism/deism or the God-substance-soul discourse? If so, how so?

Perna: Of course. Take “only” Gödel´s incompleteness theorems. You namely don´t know, which relevant truth is represented by those true statements (that can be neither proved nor disproved within the considered system). Therefore, you should try to work more with the symbolical solutions of natural problems (like with the wave function in the quantum theory up to its physical measurement) in order to get a perspective, from which they can be perceived as being possibly logically rooted. And, with symbols, you are close to what is discussed above. 

Jacobsen: What are the prime virtues in virtue ethics for you? Is this in connection with the role of values leading to non-religious theism for you?

Perna: Yes.

Jacobsen: As Nature continues to become revealed more in the course of time and mental effort, and experiment, what can be said about it?

Perna: If you can really preserve such a great process, you reveal new and more horizons and perspectives. More and more beauty will be revealed to you, until possible manipulations and conscious lies.

Jacobsen: Theologians talk of deism, theism, duotheism, henotheism, monotheism, pantheism, pandeism, panendeism, panentheism, holopanendeism, holopanentheism, et cetera. Any thoughts on each of these while God is on the menu of the conversation, good sir?

Perna: None.

Jacobsen: What is free will or freedom of the will here?

Perna: I think that free will is a unique property of harmonic connections to others. No freedom for the will, where harmony destroyed, cheated or betrayed.

Jacobsen: How should considerations about human possibilities and natural limitations set bounds on discussion about the structure and function of human societies?

Perna: I partially answered this question. But, who will calibrate these considerations such that they could lead to the convergence of (still) human societies to configuration of harmonic relations between its members? If, for example, a constant economic growth does, then you miss constants of nature, obtaining either global collapse in its possibly many forms, or animal society.

Jacobsen: Can you expand on Entities-Identity searching, please?

Perna: Search for beauty!

Jacobsen: What kind of Idealism?

Perna: That any idea cannot be connected with any matter pattern only then, when it is connected with symbols as the objects of existence and with objects as the symbols of being. In any opposite case, the idea collapses into some kind of existence/being-malformations.

Jacobsen: Is this sense of a non-afterlife afterlife an identification of eternal transformation as a law of Nature? What does this mean for our identities?

Perna: Your identity is not connected with the death of your material body. You will “only” obtain a further opportunity to make your temporarily unique measure of being conscious of your consciousness richer. I believe that this is the law of Nature.

Footnotes

[1] Member, World Genius Directory; Member, United Giga Society.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 8, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/perna-2; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

*High range testing (HRT) should be taken with honest skepticism grounded in the limited empirical development of the field at present, even in spite of honest and sincere efforts. If a higher general intelligence score, then the greater the variability in, and margin of error in, the general intelligence scores because of the greater rarity in the population.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Tomáš Perna on German Nazism, God, Virtue, Freedom of the Will, and Scientific Discourse: Member, World Genius Directory (2)[Online]. June 2022; 30(A). Available from: https://in-sightjournal.com/perna-2.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 8). Conversation with Tomáš Perna on German Nazism, God, Virtue, Freedom of the Will, and Scientific Discourse: Member, World Genius Directory (2). Retrieved from https://in-sightjournal.com/perna-2.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Tomáš Perna on German Nazism, God, Virtue, Freedom of the Will, and Scientific Discourse: Member, World Genius Directory (2). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. June. 2022. <https://in-sightjournal.com/perna-2>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Tomáš Perna on German Nazism, God, Virtue, Freedom of the Will, and Scientific Discourse: Member, World Genius Directory (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. https://in-sightjournal.com/perna-2.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Tomáš Perna on German Nazism, God, Virtue, Freedom of the Will, and Scientific Discourse: Member, World Genius Directory (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (June 2022). https://in-sightjournal.com/perna-2.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Tomáš Perna on German Nazism, God, Virtue, Freedom of the Will, and Scientific Discourse: Member, World Genius Directory (2)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <https://in-sightjournal.com/perna-2>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Tomáš Perna on German Nazism, God, Virtue, Freedom of the Will, and Scientific Discourse: Member, World Genius Directory (2)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., https://in-sightjournal.com/perna-2.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Tomáš Perna on German Nazism, God, Virtue, Freedom of the Will, and Scientific Discourse: Member, World Genius Directory (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): June. 2022. Web. <https://in-sightjournal.com/perna-2>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Tomáš Perna on German Nazism, God, Virtue, Freedom of the Will, and Scientific Discourse: Member, World Genius Directory (2)[Internet]. (2022, June 30(A). Available from: https://in-sightjournal.com/perna-2.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

The Greenhorn Chronicles 7: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Wisdom, Intuition, Disabilities, and Elitism (2)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.E, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 1, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,667

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Leann (Pitman) Manuel’s bio states: “Leann was as good as born on a horse, and has been fortunate to work with them daily since her very early twenties. From Pony Club and 4H as a child, through national level competition and several World’s Show qualifications with her Quarter Horse as a teen, to some Dressage tests, a few Cowboy Challenge clinics, and the daily operations at Riding 4 Life today, Leann’s horsemanship practice continues to seek out anything and everything she may be able to learn or experience with horses. Leann is passionate about helping others realize the value of having horses in their lives – no matter the breed or creed – and she hopes to continue to grow and nurture the horsemanship community in her region well into the future.” She discusses: prospective employee interviews; intuitive sense; make a greenhorn not a greenhorn; developmental disabilities outside of the autism spectrum; narrative of trauma; elitism; and industry’s interactions with outsiders and with one another.

Keywords: developmental disabilities, elitism, employees, intuition, Leann Manuel, Riding 4 Life, wisdom.

The Greenhorn Chronicles 7: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Wisdom, Intuition, Disabilities, and Elitism (2)

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations after the interview.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: When you’re doing prospective employee interviews, how do you evaluate individuals knowing the difficulty of the job?

Leann (Pitman) Manuel[1],[2]: So, I have yet to hire somebody who I am not already familiar with. They have already been a client. I have been their foundation of horsemanship from the get-go. Or I’ve seen them with their horse or other horses and, at a distance, been able to see their horsemanship.

Jacobsen: Is it an intuitive sense when observing them over a long period of time?

Manuel: Some would say, “It is intuitive.” It is not as if I have this conscious thinking template. Every time, my eyes are on a horse. I’m with a student training. It is this mindful awareness. I don’t have to put words or language to understand everything. There are ways of knowing and being, and skills that I have; I don’t necessarily have them written down. I’m trying to write part of my curriculum down because there are opportunities to get some course credit for some of the teens.

Of course, I have to play nice with the school system and demonstrate on paper. It is not my favourite thing to do. I would much rather drag someone out to the riding arena and the round pen, and let’s do this thing. You are going to get better by doing. I can help you do that. So, yes, how do I really know? I don’t know if I have adequate words for that. I can give people words if they really need them. Like any other funder, if I need to prove outcomes, show me the funder requirements, I’ll get it done.

I don’t know if you are familiar with any of Malcolm Gladwell’s work. His book Blink offers something I appreciate. I appreciate many of his books. He talks about the thin, slicing look at something. Folks who become masters or professionals at what they do begin to trust their whole selves. That’s a big part of what I have done over the years. It is a skill and a competence, and teaching people to trust themselves. I am actively pursuing this here.

Jacobsen: It’s difficult translating wisdom and intuition based on experience to a formal curriculum. I could imagine the difficulty in that.

Manuel: Oh, man! Sometimes, staring at the screen, “How do I describe this in three well-written paragraphs?”

Jacobsen: What if someone doesn’t have a lot of experience, though they want to become a part of riding for life? How do you make a greenhorn not a greenhorn?

Manuel: That’s the bulk of what we do. I shouldn’t say everybody. But client-wise, the vast majority of our clients haven’t really ridden a horse before, maybe a pony ride. I almost do this on purpose. When I originally started in 2004, when I started Riding 4 Life formally, I made a point of not re-recruiting the same horse people. Those were not my clients. If you had already been a client at several other places, the ne hottest thing, I don’t want you.

I want beginners, pretty please, because there is a lot of unlearning that has to happen. A lot of habits, preconceived ideas, “cognitive bias” would be one of the academic terms for it. I have got to do battle with a lot of that first. I think I have it easy as far as clients because most of the clients are 8,9, or 10, years old. They are open, curious, in school, skilled in growth and learning. It is their number one job in life.

So, it is super easy to get them started. Our curriculum, some of the core skills, I put under the heading, “Leadership.” Four or five parts of that are abundantly important. One is lead by example. Courage is another one. Those are two things to go to in the curriculum. Never expect students to do things you are not willing to do; you can’t teach something you can’t do. We do it. I learn really well by seeing it, hearing it, and being in the environment, and letting it soak it, without having to focus on having to take the write notes, study, spit it out on the test.

I’ve been there, done that. Let’s get them near a horse, on a horse. One of the other important things, I think, which works well here, anyway. We have the curriculum written down in written form with skills and expectations. Our staff know what the skills look like and what they can get you with a horse. But we are not going to make you read a text about it. We are not going to make you memorize it. We might not even mention that vocabulary.

Somehow, we will get you going through the motions of the skills. We might tell you later what we did. I have a newcomer to our staff who is a parent of a client. They have experience. They own a couple of horses. She is starting to teach beginner teachers with us. She has been certified as a beginner instructor elsewhere. She’s like, “Leann, where is the book? What is the vocabulary? I need to teach them the right word for things.” I’m like, “No, you don’t.” Some of our clients are non-verbal.

I don’t care what it is called. I want them to learn it firs.t The way we encode, the way memory works, we memorize or learn things by hanging them on other experiences. It is useless to tell them what a billet is. “What is the point pocket on your saddle?” Is this useful to their horsemanship journey at this point? Well, no, honestly, the only time “point pocket” has been useful has been saddle fitting at a high-end competition with my fancy horse deciding if this saddle might be costing me a half-pointing on one point on my dressage test at medium level or in a Pony Club test.

Otherwise, I could go my life not knowing what the point pocket was, so we try to keep it down to earth that way. Also, remove those barriers of overwhelm, so many beginners hit them.

Jacobsen: What other developmental disabilities outside of the autism spectrum come forward for some of the clientele?

Manuel: Oh, gosh, a whole range, another thing, I should mention. Autism is such a high percentage of my clients because there is funding. As a social worker, in my past life, I am accustomed to dealing with government legislation, systems, and being able to do the language bit. So, I’ve been a service provider with the Ministry of Family and Children for a number of years. That’s the most available funding pocket, which is autism funding. We get a lot of requests.

We struggle to get those kids’ services paid for, sometimes. But I’d say, “If it weren’t for funding, the number one thing is mental health.” Kids and teens with, usually, anxiety disorders, depression, etc. There are all kinds of labels that come with this. Through my eyes, they come through trauma. They’re all trauma related. Trauma growing up in a family that isn’t the idyllic family, never need a therapist. There are so many people going through so many traumas in our culture.

Our society isn’t good at recognizing them and healing them. Trauma is common. We could normalize it in a lot of cases. We don’t, by and large. We fail at that. That’s one of the things that I’ve been successful at here. “Oh, you have trauma. Welcome to the club! [Laughing] Here’s how we incorporate that.”

Jacobsen: Do you incorporate your narrative of trauma when talking to clientele or staff to normalize the conversation?

Manuel: When it comes up, yes, definitely, I have a staffer who I am thinking of in this moment. They are having overwhelming anxiety attacks. It tends to happen as a new client is showing up. They have to meet the client and been the superhero instructor. All these expectations and intrusive thoughts come, ‘I am going to suck. I am like, “Yeah, you might. But that’s okay. You are just starting and learning. I am here for you. If you suck and somebody complains, then I will have a conversation with that parent. I will remind them what it is like.”

I want to normalize it and bring it back down to Earth. One of my criticisms for my own industry and my own colleagues in the horse industry. There is a certain measure of elitism running rampant.

Jacobsen: Is it worse in different sectors?

Manuel: No.

Jacobsen: It is a thread throughout everything?

Manuel: Yes. It doesn’t matter if you are on the $50,000 dressage horse. You’re hoping to compete in Kentucky. Or you’re on the shining spark show horse… it doesn’t matter at that level. You run into elitism in every discipline everywhere.

Jacobsen: How does this change the industry’s interactions with outsiders and with one another?

Manuel: I have a lot of thoughts about why that is. It would an entirely different interview on colonialism and all that jazz. It is everywhere. I’ve worked in a lot of different disciplines, worked with a lot of different breeds of horses, been to a lot of different horse shows. After a while, they all start to look the same. So, here I am, in my muck boots, with very few brand name pieces of clothing anymore, which you could find at a tack store, most of mine come from Value Village because it does the same job at this level.

Once upon a time, when I was qualifying for the World’s, it did matter that I had the particular piece of equipment for that horse doing that job. For the vast majority of people who want to compete in the industry, if it is, basically, safe, adequate, and not hurting anybody, I don’t want to hear about it. There are more important things to worry about.

Footnotes

[1] Instructor & Founder, Riding 4 Life Equine Enterprises.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 1, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-2; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightpublishing.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 7: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Wisdom, Intuition, Mental Illness, and Developmental Disabilities (2)[Online]. June 2022; 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-2.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 1). The Greenhorn Chronicles 7: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Wisdom, Intuition, Mental Illness, and Developmental Disabilities (2). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-2.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 7: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Wisdom, Intuition, Mental Illness, and Developmental Disabilities (2). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E, June. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-2>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 7: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Wisdom, Intuition, Mental Illness, and Developmental Disabilities (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-2.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Greenhorn Chronicles 7: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Wisdom, Intuition, Mental Illness, and Developmental Disabilities (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E (June 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-2.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 7: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Wisdom, Intuition, Mental Illness, and Developmental Disabilities (2)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-2>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 7: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Wisdom, Intuition, Mental Illness, and Developmental Disabilities (2)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-2.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 7: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Wisdom, Intuition, Mental Illness, and Developmental Disabilities (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.E (2022): June. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-2>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 7: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Wisdom, Intuition, Mental Illness, and Developmental Disabilities (2)[Internet]. (2022, June 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-2.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–2022. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

Conversation with Brandon Feick on Intelligence and Philosophy: Member, Glia Society (1)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 1, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,089

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Brandon Feick is a Member of the Glia Society. He discusses: the purpose of intelligence tests; the God concept; an afterlife; genius; science; ethical philosophy; social philosophy; political philosophy; metaphysics; philosophical system; meaning; a genius from a profoundly intelligent person; the mystery and transience of life; and love.

Keywords: Brandon Feick, genius, intelligence, I.Q., Glia Society, life, love, metaphysics.

Conversation with Brandon Feick on Intelligence and Philosophy: Member, Glia Society (1)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What is the purpose of intelligence tests to you?

Brandon Feick[1],[2]*: I believe the purpose is to test for certain capabilities within a person. IQ tests can be used to identify people with a specific type of problem-solving capabilities.

Jacobsen: Any thoughts on the God concept or gods idea and philosophy, theology, and religion?

Feick: I believe in the light of Good. Not all people know of a God, and what God is varies in different parts of the world. I believe that God is Good in that God = Good. First and foremost, I believe in Good in the world. Good has brought us this far, and so I believe we must continue to have faith in Good.

Jacobsen: Do you believe in an afterlife? If so, why, and what form? If not, why not?

Feick:  Unfortunately, I do not believe in an afterlife. I believe my self and my brain would be no longer and that I would no longer have conscious thought. Perhaps in ways that I am entangled with the world I may continue onward at some level, but I do not think too hard beyond that.

Jacobsen: Is profound intelligence necessary for genius?

Feick: I do not think profound intelligence is required to do something that can be described as genius, whether it be/is an achievement in a short series of moments in time or the cumulation of a longer series of moments. However, in cases where someone is described as a genius in fields like music, literature, science, etc., I think that profound intelligence is necessary.

Jacobsen: How much does science play into the worldview for you?

Feick: Science is an integral part of humans being an intelligent species.

Science is a result of the evolution of human intelligence.

Without science, we wouldn’t have many of the things we do that help to make us comfortable living in the world.

I cannot see a way to stop technological advance. For this reason, science must play a significant role in anyone’s worldview…

Unless, they do not dwell on such things as human life…

Jacobsen: What ethical philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Feick:  The most important thing is that people consider what is right and what is wrong, what is good and what is bad. Let the question resonate, and over time, it becomes more natural to consider this question in our actions. Sometimes, people do what would be considered a good thing, and what results from it would be considered bad, and vice versa. People can easily do things that are bad or wrong without realizing it initially. It is hard to predict the long-term outcome of events. The best we can do to achieve the most good is to ask ourselves the question of what is good, what is bad, what is right, and what is wrong.

Jacobsen: What social philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Feick:  Smile often.

Jacobsen: What political philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Feick:  I live in bubbles. If you are in politics, it makes sense to achieve your goals. Philosophically, achieve your goals. It will build a strength which will aid you alongside others who don’t play fair.

Jacobsen: What metaphysics makes some sense to you, even the most workable sense to you?

Feick:  I believe that all is one, and by this I am referring to evolution. If you keep going back through time far enough, it would suggest all of life began at a single point, even if there were multiple occurrences of that point. It suggests we are all interconnected, but I guess in that same thought we’d be just as connected to a tree as a person.

Metaphysics… the first principle of things, time, space, etc.

Jacobsen: What worldview-encompassing philosophical system makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Feick:  I do not think I can answer this question without consideration of my personal wants, and then I find comes in the idea of ideology.

I am not studied on such matters. If I felt inspired to read about such systems, I would probably end up developing my own.

Devote oneself to nature of one’s being, to contribute to evolution as nature through time reveals itself through intelligent beings.

Jacobsen: Is meaning externally derived, internally generated, both, or something else?

Feick:  I am internally driven, although in a different day and time, such as if I lived in a world where there was no external motivation, then perhaps I would not be as internally motivated.

Jacobsen: What differentiates a genius from a profoundly intelligent person?

Feick: Sometimes, nothing at all. Sometimes, experience. Sometimes, …

Then begin writing.

I think a profoundly intelligent person has more limitations.

Jacobsen: What do you make of the mystery and transience of life?

Feick:  Life is only as mysterious as we can imagine it being.

Transience of life I will have to Google…. Lasting for a short time

It is just the self that is transient. I imagine that in nature, the self produces another self because it must… a being produces another being because it must. I imagine that it is inherently tied to the process of evolution. I don’t mind the transience of life… it’s the pain I don’t like. A feeling of ecstasy won’t last forever, but some pains last a lifetime, so it’s a bit lopsided in my opinion, and then there’s the pain of dying. Nobody wants that. Nobody wants the pain of living.

I get excited about the mystery of life. I find it interesting that in a way, life is one continuous being throughout all of evolution. Every human that ever walked the earth, born, lived, reproduced repeat, and I imagine this process goes all the way back to beginning of evolution. I’ll never understand the greatest mysteries of life and the universe, and that’s ok, because it might even be beyond human comprehension, and if somehow humans did unravel the mystery… one would still then have to ask, would that result in good or bad in the world?

Jacobsen: What is love to you?

Feick: Definition: Intense feeling of deep affection. Connected to one’s being, sense of purpose.

It becomes a food, a source of energy, a thrivingness.

Besides the feeling of what is love, I think it incorporates something more. You strongly desire for the wellbeing of what you love. We want the best for those we love.

Footnotes

[1] Member, Glia Society.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 1, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/feick-1; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

*High range testing (HRT) should be taken with honest skepticism grounded in the limited empirical development of the field at present, even in spite of honest and sincere efforts. If a higher general intelligence score, then the greater the variability in, and margin of error in, the general intelligence scores because of the greater rarity in the population.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Brandon Feick on Intelligence and Philosophy: Member, Glia Society (1)[Online]. June 2022; 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/feick-1.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 1). Conversation with Brandon Feick on Intelligence and Philosophy: Member, Glia Society (1). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/feick-1.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Brandon Feick on Intelligence and Philosophy: Member, Glia Society (1). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A, June. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/feick-1>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Brandon Feick on Intelligence and Philosophy: Member, Glia Society (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/feick-1.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Brandon Feick on Intelligence and Philosophy: Member, Glia Society (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (June 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/feick-1.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Brandon Feick on Intelligence and Philosophy: Member, Glia Society (1)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/feick-1>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Brandon Feick on Intelligence and Philosophy: Member, Glia Society (1)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/feick-1.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Brandon Feick on Intelligence and Philosophy: Member, Glia Society (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): June. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/feick-1>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S.  Conversation with Brandon Feick on Intelligence and Philosophy: Member, Glia Society (1)[Internet]. (2022, June 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/feick-1.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

Conversation with Kate Jones on Life, Views, and Work: Diplomate, International Society for Philosophical Enquiry (1)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 1, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 4,640

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Kate Jones is a “bemused and kindly traveler of this world” with a Type A personality, high energy, and a philosophical bent. She was born at the dawn of WWII in Budapest Hungary. She is member of the International Society for Philosophical Enquiry and American Mensa, and a Lifetime member of the Imperial Society of Teachers of Dancing and a Member of the Libertarian Party. She discusses: growing up; a sense of an extended self; the family background; the experience with peers and schoolmates; some professional certifications; the purpose of intelligence tests; high intelligence discovered; the extreme reactions to and treatment of geniuses; the greatest geniuses in history; a genius from a profoundly intelligent person; profound intelligence necessary for genius; work experiences and jobs; particular job path; the gifted and geniuses; God; science; the tests taken and scores earned (with standard deviations); the range of the scores; ethical philosophy; social philosophy; economic philosophy; political philosophy; metaphysics; philosophical system; meaning in life; meaning externally derived, or internally generated; an afterlife; the mystery and transience of life; and love.

Keywords: Budapest, Germany, Hungarian, International Society for Philosophical Enquiry, Kate Jones, Mensa, Russians, World War II.

Conversation with Kate Jones on Life, Views, and Work: Diplomate, International Society for Philosophical Enquiry (1)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: When you were growing up, what were some of the prominent family stories being told over time?

Kate Jones[1],[2]*: My parents were Hungarian and didn’t tell children much. I heard how my mother’s sister was a beautiful and famous ballerina in Hungary and Germany, and my father, divorced at the time and a classical pianist, was interested in her until my mother, 22 years younger than my father, somehow managed to divert his attention to where he ended up marrying her. They used to kid about how she stole her sister’s suitor. My mother was only five years older than my father’s daughter from his first marriage. The only person severely disapproving of his marrying again was his sister, a bit of a religious hardnose who didn’t approve of the divorce. Many years later, when the ex-wife died, my parents got married again, so I was born while they were “in sin”. Since I was born an atheist, none of that bothered me at all.

When I was five years old, World War II happened and we had to flee as the Russians came into Hungary, getting out on the last train to Germany before they closed the borders. In Germany we stayed with my mother’s sister (the ballerina/dance teacher), and no stories were told in my hearing. For a few years our stories were about the war and bunkers and no food except cabbage, and hiding out in farm house attics and waiting for the Americans to win the war. The reason we had to flee was not that we were targets for the Nazis but because my father, in WWI, had been a prisoner-of-war in Russia, and he managed to escape through Siberia and get back to Hungary. He figured the Russians would have his number and if they captured him, that would be the end of him, So he got us into the “American sector” of Germany and offered his services to the Americans as an interpreter, since he spoke 7 languages and there were many foreigners piling in from every side.

One of his stories was how, in WWI, he and his troop were in one small airplane and encountered a Russian group, and someone asked, “Do you have any tennis balls?” And they did, so the two officially enemy groups got out of their planes and got a tennis game going out on the field, then parted cordially and went back to their alleged duties. That was my father’s story. His other story was how he escaped from Russia, because his captors found out that he was a pianist and invited him to come and play in their salons. On a couple of such “concerts”, he met Rachmaninoff, who also played. One evening my father played Beethoven and Rachmaninoff performed his own works. The next concert they switched, with my father playing Rachmaninoff’s music.

It was playing at these concerts that gave the alleged prisoner the chance to make his escape. My father was born in 1894. He died in Connecticut in 1968. We ended up in the US because the Germans were trying to get foreigners out, and although they offered my father emigration to Australia, he held out for a chance to emigrate to America. His original profession was as a mechanical engineer, and they found him a job in Connecticut in a small engineering firm owned by a Hungarian. We arrived in America on Christmas Day 1951. I was 12 years old.

Jacobsen: Have these stories helped provide a sense of an extended self or a sense of the family legacy?

Jones:  No, because they were not MY stories. In Budapest where we lived until we had to flee, my parents were what you’d call upper middle class, with a live-in servant to do the housework and other tasks, like cutting the throat of a live goose to get it ready for cooking (I got to watch). I was not allowed to play with her, though I liked her, because she was a lower-class person. I felt betrayed and deprived, not quite understanding that I was supposed to be upper class and treat others from that vantage point. Actually, I think my mother was just jealous that I liked this other person and wanted to be with her, even though my mother ignored me most of the time.

The only family legacy I learned of was that my father’s father was a famous Latin teacher, one of whose students was a famous Hungarian author and my grandfather’s picture is in a museum as the founder of that schooling system. He died the month I was born. None of these stories made any difference in how I regarded myself. I was never given to feel that I was somehow important or valuable; there was little affection shown to children, only scolding. If family culture had any effect, it was to drive down my self-confidence and sense of self. My mother evidently felt that her job was to come up with all kinds of cruel punishments for me for the slightest transgression.

One of my stories from the Budapest years is the time my half-sister visited us with her suitor, and they taught me how to tell fortunes by reading palms. I seemed to have a talent for that and it was a skill I professed for years, informally and for entertainment. Because of how our lives were torn up by being war refugees, not much family “legacy” prevailed. Refugees who survived is the main story.

Jacobsen: What was the family background, e.g., geography, culture, language, and religion or lack thereof?

Jones:  Hmm. I think I covered most of that above:  Budapest, Hungary; upper middle class; Hungarian and German; Roman Catholic. My father did not profess or show any religious tendencies. My mother tried to make me say prayers when going to bed from about the age of three, telling me my guardian angel was sad when I was bad or didn’t want to say the prayers, but I never believed a word of it, anymore than I believed when she tried to tell me about the Easter Bunny. I just didn’t have the vocabulary with which to argue back at that young age. My father never spoke of such things and left it to my mother. She tried to tell me about churches and God, and I never believed any of it, either, though I had to obey when she made me say prayers, which were just meaningless noise to a young, reality-focused mind. My parents took me to Sunday mass, which always made me feel dizzy. They forced me through the ritual of Confession and Communion, all meaningless activities that were part of life I had to go along with.

Leading up to that, at age 6, I was diagnosed with tuberculosis and had to spend 7 months in a children’s sanatorium in Garmisch, Germany, where the fresh mountain air cured me completely. The schooling I missed was made up for when I returned home and had a private teacher for about two weeks, who caught me up in that time with almost a year’s regular schooling. I seemed to learn everything instantly.

Jacobsen: How was the experience with peers and schoolmates as a child and an adolescent?

Jones:  Because of the war years, I did not have regular schooling. After the Americans won, they still occupied school buildings, which left my first year of school to be held in a tavern, with the huge tables and chairs, and they brought in some blackboards. It was in that first year that I was sent to the sanatorium, so after I returned, I was in second grade in a school to which I had a long walk by myself. Relations with my “peers” were not pleasant, as I was picked on by the other kids for not speaking German as well as they did (I was still learning), and I was a little younger, so got slapped around a lot. The only thing that helped was that I was always the best student in the class.

My parents would not allow me to be friends with anyone, so I was pretty much of a loner. Also by now I had had German measles which left me partially blind and I had to wear glasses, which in those days were always a target to be made fun of. I went to a different school every year, so never was a “joiner”, always the outsider, and no continuity of classmates from year to year. Then when I was 10, my mother wanted another child, and when he was born, I was sent to a boarding school run by Franciscan nuns at a nunnery on an island in the river Rhine. In it. It was close to where my aunt had her ballet school, so she must have suggested it. She visited me once a year and ignored me the rest of the time, though she was supposed to see me more often, as I found out later. To attend that school I had to learn French (instead of the Latin that was used in the school I had attended before). German schools followed one of two systems: Gymnasium and Lyceum. Gymnasium had nothing to do with gym. It was a classical Latin-based system, whereas Lyseum was more a liberal system derived from the French. My aunt sent me to a local private tutor, who, in about three weeks, brought me up to date on the French that the other students had done for a year and a half. My aunt didn’t want to believe it but tested me herself and found that I had, indeed, learned all the vocabulary and grammar. I think I had a good teacher, not giving myself credit for being smart or quick to learn. I accepted that that was just way I was.

My grades were always the highest, which made me somewhat of a teacher’s pet. I was not aware of the other kids being jealous here (at the convent school). I was very good athletically, and that did get some respect. Being away from home and with the same group of kids, there were a couple of friends who were steady buddies.

By now it was expected that I would always get the highest grades. I never paid attention to what others thought of me or whether they liked me, in that environment. After a while they even stopped making fun of my clothes, which were made from discarded stage costumes at my aunt’s school. Those clothes had made me very self-conscious and embarrassed. I should include here that the upscale life of Budapest vanished when we fled, and for many years we were very poor.

Nunnery—yes, deep daily indoctrination, mass every morning, none of which took, though I had to go along with it in a very tightly disciplined setting. We all had some favorite nun among our teachers, also one who was much disliked. I wrote an unflattering poem about her, and when the nuns found out, I was afraid of being expelled. That was the time my father accepted a job in America, and so I was taken home and escaped retribution for the insulting rhymes.

Jacobsen: What have been some professional certifications, qualifications, and trainings earned by you?

Jones: Diploma from the Imperial Society of Teachers of Dancing (England) for passing their professional teacher exam with a Highly Commended grade in both divisions, Latin and Modern Ballroom. Won Rising Star trophy with a professional partner in Modern Ballroom competition in 1973. Won over 30 First Place trophies for amateur partner (my student, later my husband) in dance competitions from 1968-1975. Advanced to Diplomate level over six earlier grades in the International Society for Philosophical Enquiry over 1984-2022 of membership. Over 50 prize ribbons in art shows for my playable art over 40 years. Games Magazine selected my puzzles 52 times for their annual “Games 100” list of the 100 best games from 1981 to 2013, the last year the list was published; obviously, some years more than one game was featured. Member of Mensa since 1982. Oh, and salutatorian at high school graduation, 1957, Bridgeport, CT.

Jacobsen: What is the purpose of intelligence tests to you?

Jones:  At the time I took them, the first one for Mensa, it was at the recommendation of a friend to get in with smart people as possible customers for my new business of puzzles (for the joy of thinking®). I passed the test and joined, but found very few customers, even when I exhibited at their Annual Gatherings. A fellow Mensan invited me to try out for the ISPE, as those were more philosophical and I might enjoy them more, and they were allegedly smarter. I qualified there, too. I have no interest in taking more tests or joining more groups. I am too busy with the business to have time for Mensa social activities. With ISPE I am more involved, since I am their journal’s senior proofreader. The older I get, the stupider I get, and I would not want to have to drop out for flunking a retest.

Jacobsen: When was high intelligence discovered for you?

Jones:  Never. I was just good at taking tests. And my father had instilled something in me about that when he took me to the first school (the tavern) on my first day and said, “Now you must always be the best student.” That’s all he said. I’m not aware of trying for that, only of working at it diligently and always doing my homework.

Jacobsen: When you think of the ways in which the geniuses of the past have either been mocked, vilified, and condemned if not killed, or praised, flattered, platformed, and revered, what seems like the reason for the extreme reactions to and treatment of geniuses? Many alive today seem camera shy – many, not all.

Jones:  There is a bug in the human software that is more active in rejecting anything that is too different from themselves, whether in talent, ability, good looks, ideas, beliefs, interactions with others, even styles of clothes and cultural habits. Envy takes over on the one hand, and that is not just emotional but can take the form of predatory hostility, like animals. Carried to a higher level, it gets groups to connive and collude, to turn into mobs and then to war-making, ending in genocide. Any pretext will do for creating excuses and justifications for killing fellow humans. Geniuses are not an exception to being targeted if their ideas are too different or may make them too rich. The schemers and conquerors grab power, since “might makes right”. Might implies physical control and violence. The top dog may be very smart for ruling strategy, while blocking off any policy of universal peace and non-aggression. So your geniuses who don’t have power don’t want to be too visible, lest they become targets.

Jacobsen: Who seems like the greatest geniuses in history to you?

Jones:  Aristotle, Newton, Galileo, Tesla, Pythagoras, Kepler, Da Vinci, Archimedes, Beethoven, Franz Liszt, Charles Darwin, Shakespeare.

Honorable mentions:  Richard Dawkins, Albert Einstein, M. C. Escher, Richard Feynman, Ayn Rand, Voltaire, George Carlin, Carl Sagan.

There are many others that I can’t think of this minute. I’m listing only the good ones. Evil geniuses don’t belong here.

Jacobsen: What differentiates a genius from a profoundly intelligent person?

Jones: His or her output, effect in the world, originality, the good luck of intersecting a particular point in a culture where a change was needed with the unique combination of mind and vision to open new vistas. A true genius does not go around claiming to be one. A genius may not even be recognized during his or her lifetime. They do what they are inspired to do by the need or opportunity in their field. Their “spark” grows more.

Jacobsen: Is profound intelligence necessary for genius?

Jones:  Not necessarily, just enough to make an original breakthrough in the human software. It’s nature’s crapshoot to find the right combination. A total idiot might not be enough. And then there was Forrest Gump… a fiction, but with billions of people in the world, who knows how many fit that picture.

Jacobsen: What have been some work experiences and jobs held by you?

Jones: Started working 1957, selling scarves in a department store; Girl Friday in advertising dept. of that store; copywriter for ads for that store; graphic artist and ad dept. manager for another store; proofreading and document production for Remington Rand Electric Shaver; librarian; copywriter for shoe store; report editor for engineering company; freelance editor/proofreader; self-employed with own Custom Graphics company with private clients; ballroom dance teacher, 1966-1980; overseas assignment (1975-1978) as secretary for Engineering Manager of Westinghouse expatriates in Shiraz, Iran, plus graphic artist for an Iranian print shop; upon return to US, co-founder (1979) and President of Kadon Enterprises, Inc., to produce wooden puzzles and later lasercut acrylic puzzles. Mostly self-employed since 1969. Continue proofreading for authors and publications. Website manager, producer, and graphic artist for Kadon. Puzzle creator, designer, writer of puzzle manuals for Kadon. Selling puzzles on the road at art shows from Florida to Minnesota, some international.

Jacobsen: Why pursue this particular job path?

Jones: Somewhere around 1998 I realized this was my purpose in life, creating unique objects the world can benefit from and drawing on all the skills I had learned through all those other jobs. Intellectually, emotionally, artistically, even physically, this work is soul-satisfying and fulfilling. And it lets me be different from everyone else in the world with no fuss. I have the freedom to do what I want, when I want, and see that it is beautiful. It’s a strange combination of free-spirited artist and practical business entrepreneur. But nothing I’ve done and want to do would be possible without the help of my devoted husband.

Jacobsen: What are some of the more important aspects of the idea of the gifted and geniuses? Those myths that pervade the cultures of the world. What are those myths? What truths dispel them?

Jones:  Ancient cultures lived on myths because the primitive people did not have enough knowledge to understand reality, so fictitious characters and creatures could easily develop in their imaginations. When the brain evolved enough to develop abstract functions, call it an operating system that came with the DNA, imagination was enabled. Ideas acquired almost an independent existence in the cells of the brain. Gifted and genius are just words we now use to describe how some individuals operate differently, on a “higher” or more advanced level, thus capable of functioning in a way the ordinary members of the tribe could not. So the other members either admired them and accepted them as leaders, or resisted and rejected them. Brute strength was still a plus over brains. Smart strength won out over dumb brute force, and thus evolved all the ruling classes and war heroes of ancient times, like Attila the Hun and Genghis Khan and their ilk.

How did humans get infected with the idea of gods as superior specimens? Which early humans thought up the notion of gods who interacted with humans in various ways? Hallucinations? Visiting aliens? Child-like gullibility and uncontrolled fantasies? And the word spread and mythical ideas dug in to the population’s impressionable minds.

One of the brain’s algorithms is to learn what is imparted, right or wrong, as with children who automatically imitate everything. Those who knew more, or seemed to, became the superiors, the respected senior members of the clans. Clans and tribes stuck together, but at some point “otherness” became suspect and rejected. Every group developed a culture of preference and rejection, through evolution of the fit. Every moment had an effect on the mental development of each member, just as all snowflakes are different.

It’s amazing that the world now has over 200 countries, even more than that many languages, endless and different belief systems, and close to 8 billion individual humans. And at any moment, some individuals will have some aspect of themselves wake up and become active in their minds, and from that their actions will interface with the other members and drive their evolution forward, or result in destruction.

Jacobsen: Any thoughts on the God concept or gods idea and philosophy, theology, and religion?

Jones: I have lots of thoughts, some alluded to above. Once abstract thought became possible, early man realized that some were bigger or stronger, or smarter. That established thinking on scales, in effect Zero to infinity. Anyone or anything more powerful than oneself became revered and feared and personified. It’s fun to imagine, though, that some magical species visited and planted ideas in natives’ heads, just as some more advanced cultures made more primitive cultures think of them as gods. I personally don’t believe in any of those beings nor in magic or miracles. There is only one Reality (ha ha, like only one God), and only real things exist, subject to how they can exist. I pretty much go along with the laws of causality. Human intellects are still in babyhood. I’m OK with that, confident that in time we will learn more and more how and why things are as they are and how they evolve.

Jacobsen: How much does science play into the worldview for you?

Jones: Totally, if by science is meant the study of Reality without contaminating with unfounded beliefs.

Jacobsen: What have been some of the tests taken and scores earned (with standard deviations) for you?

Jones:  SAT, 792 out of 800.  Mensa, 167.  ISPE, 181. I’m not smart enough to know what “standard deviations” means.

Jacobsen: What ethical philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Jones: Objectivism comes close. I want to see humanity cure that bug in the program that allows mutual destruction, but not by self-sacrifice.

Jacobsen: What social philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Jones:  Individual rights, equality of rights (not equality of results), freedom of speech (spoken, written, communicated in any form), freedom of assembly and movement, and absolutely no initiation of force or violence by anyone against anyone. The US Constitution comes close but leaves too many openings for government to become tyrannical by elevating some to rule others. The right to property honestly acquired (a libertarian principle) is paramount. Mutual consent in all relationships. Freedom to conduct private enterprise with division of labor, reward for constructive and productive work. Social contract without cheating and exploiting others.

Jacobsen: What political philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Jones: See previous paragraph. No rulers, no dictators, no subjugating anyone. All interactions for mutual benefit by mutual agreement. No cause for envy that leads to internecine hatreds, envy, and rationalization for enmities and strife. The golden rule: do no harm; treat others as you want to be treated. Galt’s oath will do. Ethical, social, political—they are not separate things. And they are of interest and value only to human beings.

Jacobsen: What metaphysics makes some sense to you, even the most workable sense to you?

Jones: “Existence exists”. Everything has a cause, or combinations of causes; and everything contributes to effects, in whatever combinations. The Universe–meaning all that exists—operates on what mathematicians call combinatorics. As my slogan states, “From the Singularity to Infinity, how forms combine and grow.”

Jacobsen: What worldview-encompassing philosophical system makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Jones: The book I’m going to write. The key word is “system”, even if its structure and process are not yet fully understood. The Libertarians are close to it in their principles. Humans fighting against humans must absolutely stop. It is a disease.

Jacobsen: What provides meaning in life for you?

Jones: Being aware that I can think, and how I think, and how I choose values and act to attain them, and that I can contemplate answering questions like these. By “meaning”, I assume you mean “value”–the positive end of the magnet.

Jacobsen: Is meaning externally derived, internally generated, both, or something else?

Jones: “Meaning” (or “value”) has meaning only for living, thinking beings who recognize in their environment the elements that coincide with their inner and outer needs. Everyone’s values are unique to themselves, a unique combination of factors, though there may be close resemblances with those of others. The search for meaning (value) is internally directed, part of the survival kit. It is fulfilled within the conditions of the external reality, which may well be an infinite combination of factors.

Jacobsen: Do you believe in an afterlife? If so, why, and what form? If not, why not?

Jones: No, not in an individual, conscious form. Physically, you may pass on your DNA, which contains much of the DNA of all your forbears mixed with the branch of your mate. Your intellectual material—every thought you had, every word you spoke, every action you took, has left a mark on the grand scheme of human life and is woven into the future if only in a tiny way. Every value you held and imparted lives on after you, for good or ill. So better make it good. And as for your material remains, they become reabsorbed eventually into the stuff of which the Universe is made, whether as fossils or as food for worms and microbes. What pulled together to be YOU goes back to be recycled in infinite ways forever. If you won’t be conscious of it, enjoy it while you live.

Jacobsen: What do you make of the mystery and transience of life?

Jones: In the hierarchy of existence, it is still evolving as part of the energy in the Universe or of the Universe. There is no divine plan, and no divine planner, and all the stuff that exists will mix and match, push apart and recombine as its energy is able to make it. I’m content to see it as an infinite process. Someday science will have a better definition of what makes existence exist and work. Or do we want to fantasize that the entire Universe is a single atom in the next size up?

Jacobsen: What is love to you?

Jones:  To answer that, let me give you an excerpt from one of my poetic ventures, the last few stanzas of a long piece by the title of “A Periodic Table of Polyform Puzzles” – www.gamepuzzles.com/periodic.pdf. It wants to say that love is the function of energy that seeks to nurture and preserve a continuity of existence in all its forms, in all its synergy, from physical reproduction to mental persistence. After showing a variety of geometric examples, it concludes:

This enumeration is not the fullest score.
Geometry leaves lots more of every level to explore.
The essence is to find a starting point and grow,
Expanding ever up and outward by algorithmic flow.

Each chain becomes a Universe, a periodic drive,
Ascending and continuous, its energy alive.
Each step combines from previous stages—evolution’s code,
And at each step we can dissect it back to its first node.

Something there is in human minds that cherishes the new,
That sees the beauty of emerging order, that it’s good and true.
That’s how we build a consciousness, no end in sight,
And how we build the future in growing wisdom’s light.

Every singularity longs for an endless goal,
So mathematics models the Universe’s soul.
Now let us trace one further, wider mega-thought above
And call the Universe’s combinatorial joinings—love.

Footnotes

[1] Lifetime member, Imperial Society of Teachers of Dancing; Member, American Mensa; Diplomate, International Society for Philosophical Enquiry; Member, Libertarian Party; Member, Future of Freedom Foundation; Member, The Planetary Society; Member, SETI@Home; Member, The Atlas Society.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 1, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jones-1; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

*High range testing (HRT) should be taken with honest skepticism grounded in the limited empirical development of the field at present, even in spite of honest and sincere efforts. If a higher general intelligence score, then the greater the variability in, and margin of error in, the general intelligence scores because of the greater rarity in the population.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Kate Jones on Life, Views, and Work: Diplomate, International Society for Philosophical Enquiry (1) [Online]. June 2022; 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jones-1.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 1). Conversation with Kate Jones on Life, Views, and Work: Diplomate, International Society for Philosophical Enquiry (1) . Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jones-1.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Kate Jones on Life, Views, and Work: Diplomate, International Society for Philosophical Enquiry (1). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A, June. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jones-1>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Kate Jones on Life, Views, and Work: Diplomate, International Society for Philosophical Enquiry (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jones-1.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Kate Jones on Life, Views, and Work: Diplomate, International Society for Philosophical Enquiry (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (June 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jones-1.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Kate Jones on Life, Views, and Work: Diplomate, International Society for Philosophical Enquiry (1)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jones-1>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Kate Jones on Life, Views, and Work: Diplomate, International Society for Philosophical Enquiry (1) ’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jones-1.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Kate Jones on Life, Views, and Work: Diplomate, International Society for Philosophical Enquiry (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): June. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jones-1>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S.  Conversation with Kate Jones on Life, Views, and Work: Diplomate, International Society for Philosophical Enquiry (1) [Internet]. (2022, June 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jones-1.

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Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on Some Intellectual Interests: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (2)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 1, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,135

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Tianxi Yu (余天曦) is a Member of CatholIQ, Chinese Genius Directory, EsoterIQ Society, Nano Society, and World Genius Directory. He discusses: Chen-Ning Yang; Paul Seymour; the “greatest”; more serious thoughts on the fundamental nature of reality; Russell; your own thoughts; school examinations; investment; writing; a Nobel prize a good indicator of a great thinker; focus on the people at the top of the world; want to be recognized; focus on academic activities; thoughts on love; love; tests; identify individuals who can solve complex problems; an anti-intellectual; an intellectual; waste; writing; some projects; some social problems of interest; and development of science and technology.

Keywords: CatholIQ Society, Chinese Genius Directory, EsoterIQ Society, Nano Society, Tianxi Yu, World Genius Directory.

Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on Some Intellectual Interests: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (2)

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: We’re back after 16 months. Let’s continue, my friend. Why Chen-Ning Yang?

Tianxi Yu (余天曦)[1],[2]*: Because his contribution to his discipline is greater than anyone else’s, even if he is also a Nobel laureate, Yang’s contribution is greater than the vast majority of Nobel laureates. Among the scientists currently alive, Yang is undoubtedly the most radiant.

Jacobsen: Why Paul Seymour?

Yu: Don’t know much about him, hahaha, I read his proof of the strong perfect graph conjecture, it is very interesting.

Jacobsen: Why do you want the world to think you’re the “greatest”?

Yu: I don’t need to be recognized by everyone, I just want to be recognized by the people at the top of the world. Getting recognition is kind of socially satisfying, and the work I’m doing now is definitely something I want to be recognized for.

Jacobsen: What are your more serious thoughts on the fundamental nature of reality? What is reality?

Yu: I would have given an answer to this question 16 months ago, but I can’t give it now.

Jacobsen: What are your thoughts on Russell?

Yu: It is difficult to describe in a few words… When I saw this question, my brain was flooded with very complicated and huge emotions… I first learned about Russell near the end of elementary school, and it struck me as I read it, because I felt that Russell’s thoughts were similar to many of mine… “An austere soul burns in the agony of loneliness”, except that I have a different perception of love than he does, and I have little desire for it, and even rather resent it.

Jacobsen: What makes your own thoughts dismiss those, since established, as meaningless?

Yu: It is a wrong idea that everything that has been established is useful. Useless use is also a use. Although on a social level, there are high and low values, but creating beauty and pleasing ourselves has no value.

Jacobsen: Do you mean the school examinations as the “tests” making you feel disgusted?

Yu: Yes, I hate tests, I think they are obsolete. Put in the past, the test is undoubtedly useful, because human social development is just starting, and needs a lot of fast talent to meet the needs of society. But today’s social development is very slow, and can even be described as stagnant, it is time to discover people who can solve complex problems, which is often referred to as “high IQ” talent in the community. I am more of an anti-intellectual, but I have to say that the IQ of the high ability to solve complex problems is stronger, of course, not gaining expertise, still a waste.

Jacobsen: What kinds of investment?

Yu: Cryptos, but now no more investment, mainly in writing papers and doing projects.

Jacobsen: What are some papers that you’re writing to “earn bonus”?

Yu: Not to go to “earn bonus”, now write papers more inclined to interest. Because I found that some of my knowledge and insights can actually solve some social problems and contribute to the development of science and technology in a small way.

Jacobsen: Is a Nobel prize a good indicator of a great thinker to you?

Yu: From a historical perspective, these Nobel Prize winners have greatly advanced the world and have all made great contributions to the world. And creating these results also requires very deep thinking, and from this perspective, I think it is.

Jacobsen: Why focus on the people at the top of the world compared to others when hoping for proper recognition in the world?

Yu: Only people at the top of the world can understand each other.

Jacobsen: What is the work you’re doing now? That which you “want to be recognized for.”

Yu: Hard to describe, although I want to say “technology”, but not sure.I don’t know if my works really have meaning or what I will do in the future.

Jacobsen: Why the change in the ability to answer some questions compared to 16 months ago?

Yu: 16 months ago I was focused on making money, so I only wanted to think about money-related things. But now money is not as useful as before, so I focus on academic activities.

Jacobsen: What are your different thoughts on love now?

Yu: I now believe that love is useless. Thinking this has to do with the country I live in. Love should be something that brings pleasure and draws pleasure from the other person. But nowadays, there are high mortgage payments (the average person struggles for about 30 years to afford a house), huge education costs (school district, tuition fees), and lack of medical assistance. Not to mention that 715 (9:00 to work, 25:00 to leave work, lasting seven days) is now popular, and society is still in the process of massive layoffs and pay cuts. With so many burdens there is still time to fall in love?

Jacobsen: Why do you “rather resent” love in a sense?

Yu: Women weak my legs.

Jacobsen: What should replace tests now?

Yu: Not yet, existing resources are not sufficient to support a more complex testing approach.

Jacobsen: With social development as very slow now, even stagnant, what can help identify individuals who can solve complex problems in this societal environment?

Yu: Large area for universal high range testing? lol

Jacobsen: Why consider yourself “more of an anti-intellectual”?

Yu: I don’t like to over-emphasize the importance of intelligence, of course it’s more important, but there’s no need to deify it. I also rather resent people who flaunt their IQ.

Jacobsen: In this context, following from the previous question, what makes someone an intellectual?

Yu: Born in an intellectual family has been a big part of success, if not, only by their own desire for knowledge.

Jacobsen: How do the talented, typically, waste their talents, not use them fully?

Yu: Laziness. Although I know that some people may feel that, for example, the family of origin, or school bullying and other reasons, but it all boils down to laziness.

Jacobsen: What are some things you’re writing now?

Yu: “Infectious disease risk calculation and storage system based on 3-tier network system” -Tianxi Yu, first author

Jacobsen: What are some projects you’re doing now?

Yu: “Research on rapid risk assessment, precise early warning and prevention and control countermeasures for major outbreaks of acute infectious diseases”-Major Science and Technology Project on Public Health of Tianjin [grant numbers 21ZXGWSY00010] and the Tianjin Key Medical Discipline (Specialty) Construction Project (2021)

Jacobsen: What are some social problems of interest to you?

Yu: Covid-19 epidemic, economy, corruption, etc., but it’s not convenient to start the discussion.

Jacobsen: What are things in the development of science and technology of interest to you, now?

Yu: Every major scientific advancement interests me.

Footnotes

[1] Member, CatholIQ; Member, Chinese Genius Directory; Member, EsoterIQ Society; Member, Nano Society; Member, World Genius Directory.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/yu-2; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

*High range testing (HRT) should be taken with honest skepticism grounded in the limited empirical development of the field at present, even in spite of honest and sincere efforts. If a higher general intelligence score, then the greater the variability in, and margin of error in, the general intelligence scores because of the greater rarity in the population.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on Some Intellectual Interests: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (2)[Online]. June 2022; 30(A). Available from: https://in-sightjournal.com/yu-2.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 1). Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on Some Intellectual Interests: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (2). Retrieved from https://in-sightjournal.com/yu-2.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on Some Intellectual Interests: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (2). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. June. 2022. <https://in-sightjournal.com/yu-2>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on Some Intellectual Interests: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. https://in-sightjournal.com/yu-2.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on Some Intellectual Interests: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (June 2022). https://in-sightjournal.com/yu-2.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on Some Intellectual Interests: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (2)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <https://in-sightjournal.com/yu-2>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on Some Intellectual Interests: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (2)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., https://in-sightjournal.com/yu-2.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on Some Intellectual Interests: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): June. 2022. Web. <https://in-sightjournal.com/yu-2>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on Some Intellectual Interests: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (2)[Internet]. (2022, June 30(A). Available from: https://in-sightjournal.com/yu-2.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/“MayTzu”/“Mayzi”) on “More and Less Than Stardust,” “Sound of Morning Light,” and “Braille Shadows”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (11)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 1, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 836

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Richard May (“May-Tzu”/“MayTzu”/“Mayzi”) is a Member of the Mega Society based on a qualifying score on the Mega Test (before 1995) prior to the compromise of the Mega Test and Co-Editor of Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society. In self-description, May states: “Not even forgotten in the cosmic microwave background (CMB), I’m an Amish yuppie, born near the rarified regions of Laputa, then and often, above suburban Boston. I’ve done occasional consulting and frequent Sisyphean shlepping. Kafka and Munch have been my therapists and allies. Occasionally I’ve strived to descend from the mists to attain the mythic orientation known as having one’s feet upon the Earth. An ailurophile and a cerebrotonic ectomorph, I write for beings which do not, and never will, exist — writings for no one. I’ve been awarded an M.A. degree, mirabile dictu, in the humanities/philosophy, and U.S. patent for a board game of possible interest to extraterrestrials. I’m a member of the Mega Society, the Omega Society and formerly of Mensa. I’m the founder of the Exa Society, the transfinite Aleph-3 Society and of the renowned Laputans Manqué. I’m a biographee in Who’s Who in the Brane World. My interests include the realization of the idea of humans as incomplete beings with the capacity to complete their own evolution by effecting a change in their being and consciousness. In a moment of presence to myself in inner silence, when I see Richard May’s non-being, ‘I’ am. You can meet me if you go to an empty room.” Some other resources include Stains Upon the Silence: something for no oneMcGinnis Genealogy of Crown Point, New York: Hiram Porter McGinnisSwines ListSolipsist SoliloquiesBoard GameLulu blogMemoir of a Non-Irish Non-Jew, and May-Tzu’s posterousHe discusses: “More and Less Than Stardust”; “Sound of Morning Light”; and “Braille Shadows.”

Keywords: Alan Watts, Buddha nature, Erwin Schroedinger, Jacob Needleman, Katha Upanishad, Krishnamurti, Max Planck, May-Tzu, Richard May, The Beatles.

Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/“MayTzu”/“Mayzi”) on “More and Less Than Stardust,” “Sound of Morning Light,” and “Braille Shadows”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (11)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: “More and Less Than Stardust” makes the distinction between subject and object, internal external. Ultimately, are these distinctions valid? In that, what makes a subject “a subject” and an object “an object,” and “a subject” different from “an object”? 

Richard May[1],[2]*: No, these distinctions are not ultimately real, the ‘mystics’ and some scientists agree. This was one of my points.

“Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature… because… we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.” — Nobel laureate Max Planck

Jacobsen: If subjectivities are in the universe, is the universe awake, in, at least, this micro-localized aspect of its existence? If so, can we state unequivocally that the universe has self-awarenesses?

May: We are part of the universe. All intelligent sentient beings anywhere are also parts of the universe. AI units will be or are parts of the universe. If we have at least some very incomplete awareness of the universe, including ourselves, then this would seem to be the universe observing itself. The universe is awake only when little sentient beings within it are awake, unless stars and galaxies also have conscious minds, which they may. Rupert Sheldrake has written about this possibility. — Macro Buddhas and nano Buddhas, mostly sleeping Buddhas.

Jacobsen: What makes some “states of ‘consciousness’” “useful”?

May: Survival of the organism until reproduction is useful from the perspective of evolutionary natural selection. After generating progeny we are food for worms. We could potentially have other higher purposes also, I suppose.

Jacobsen: If subjectivities are in the universe, is the universe awake, in, at least, this micro-localized aspect of its existence? If so, can we state unequivocally that the universe has self-awarenesses? As “we are the universe observing itself,” is it possible to expand the idea of self-awarenesses or consciousnesses in the universe to the concept of self-awareness or consciousness of the universe? Italics make things look serious and impactful, so italics!

May: Consciousness with knowledge and understanding of the universe is empirical science. Consciousness of the universe is empirical science, I think. Self-awareness in the universe is an emergent phenomenon corresponding to a certain level of neurological development of an organism. I don’t know about self-awareness or consciousness of the universe. Maybe … Perhaps the universe can achieve ‘enlightenment’ or ‘awakening’ of its consciousness, if any. I don’t know.

Jacobsen: What are the various levels of “the One” in its withins and withouts?

May: I do wish that I knew!

Jacobsen: How is “‘our’” separate experience a delusion in this light?

May: “Consciousness is a singular for which there is no plural.” — Erwin Schroedinger. Maybe think of quantum entanglement of ‘particles’ and the Katha Upanishad.

Jacobsen: Why use the phrase of Alan Watts, “skin encapsulated egos,” as the descriptive phrase for this?

May: I didn’t know that this was an Alan Watts phrase. I found it somewhere and liked it, so I used it.

Jacobsen: How is the universe a hologram?

May: The universe may not be a hologram. This was speculative; a possibility.

Jacobsen: How is this hologrammatic universe embedded in human consciousness too (and vice versa)?

May: The universe may not be holographic. This was speculative.

Jacobsen: Are there any other binaries to relate the ideas presented with station and state, being and knowledge, and “makam” and “hal”? 

May: I don’t know. I didn’t think of any other binary pairs. (Wave is to Particle) as (Knowledge is to Being)?

Jacobsen: Quoting Krishnamurti, are there any true distinctions between observer and observed?

May: In the case of certain politicians a “rectal-cranial inversion” could give the phrase an additional layer of meaning, I suppose.

Jacobsen: “Sound of Morning Light” is funny. A spring robin, it’s supposed to dance that darned haiku to a 5-7-5 beat, but missed the haiku beat. What was the robin thinking? How did it miss it?

May: The robin was probably thinking about the problem of unifying quantum gravity with general relativity or the cute girl robin next door. Hard to say.

Jacobsen: “Braille Shadows” is terse. A satori moment for a buddha. Zen riddles riddle the landscape. Does morning dew scattering light onto falling petals have the buddha nature?

May: Dew, light and flower petals have the Buddha nature; My writings, as paper and ink, have the Buddha nature and a piece of dung has the Buddha nature.

Jacobsen: There’s some content at the end of the book for No One with this Jacobsen fellow. Who the hell is the damned stupid, annoying, petulant, inconsistent, idiot nobody asking so many gosh dang questions? I heard he has cooties. 

“I am he as you are he as you are me

And we are all together.” — The Beatles

“The question ‘Who am I’ and the question ‘What is God?’ are the same question.” — Jacob Needleman.

If I don’t know who or what I am, how can I know who or what another person is?

Maybe we are both just food in a cosmic food chain.

Footnotes

[1] Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society.”

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 1, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/may-11; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

*High range testing (HRT) should be taken with honest skepticism grounded in the limited empirical development of the field at present, even in spite of honest and sincere efforts. If a higher general intelligence score, then the greater the variability in, and margin of error in, the general intelligence scores because of the greater rarity in the population.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/“MayTzu”/“Mayzi”) on “More and Less Than Stardust,” “Sound of Morning Light,” and “Braille Shadows”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (11)[Online]. June 2022; 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/may-11.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 1). Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/“MayTzu”/“Mayzi”) on “More and Less Than Stardust,” “Sound of Morning Light,” and “Braille Shadows”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (11). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/may-11.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/“MayTzu”/“Mayzi”) on “More and Less Than Stardust,” “Sound of Morning Light,” and “Braille Shadows”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (11). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A, June. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/may-11>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/“MayTzu”/“Mayzi”) on “More and Less Than Stardust,” “Sound of Morning Light,” and “Braille Shadows”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (11).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/may-11.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/“MayTzu”/“Mayzi”) on “More and Less Than Stardust,” “Sound of Morning Light,” and “Braille Shadows”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (11).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (June 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/may-11.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/“MayTzu”/“Mayzi”) on “More and Less Than Stardust,” “Sound of Morning Light,” and “Braille Shadows”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (11)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/may-11>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/“MayTzu”/“Mayzi”) on “More and Less Than Stardust,” “Sound of Morning Light,” and “Braille Shadows”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (11)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/may-11.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/“MayTzu”/“Mayzi”) on “More and Less Than Stardust,” “Sound of Morning Light,” and “Braille Shadows”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (11).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): June. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/may-11>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S.  Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/“MayTzu”/“Mayzi”) on “More and Less Than Stardust,” “Sound of Morning Light,” and “Braille Shadows”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (11)[Internet]. (2022, June 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/may-11.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–2022. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

Conversation with Tomáš Perna on Life, Views, and Work: Member, World Genius Directory (1)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 1, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,296

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Tomáš Perna is a Member of the World Genius Directory and United Giga Society. He discusses: growing up; extended self; family background; youth with friends; education; purpose of intelligence tests; high intelligence; extreme reactions to geniuses; greatest geniuses; genius and a profoundly gifted person; necessities for genius or the definition of genius; work experiences and jobs held; job path; myths of the gifted; God; science; tests taken and scores earned; range of the scores; ethical philosophy; political philosophy; metaphysics; worldview; meaning in life; source of meaning; afterlife; life; and love.

Keywords: Czech Republic, life, Tomáš Perna, United Giga Society, views, work, World Genius Directory.

Conversation with Tomáš Perna on Life, Views, and Work: Member, World Genius Directory (1)

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: When you were growing up, what were some of the prominent family stories being told over time?

Tomáš Perna[1],[2]*: Especially, how my grandfather and his brothers were fighting for their homeland in conspiracy against German Nazism as the heroism pattern.

Jacobsen: Have these stories helped provide a sense of an extended self or a sense of the family legacy?

Perna: Not directly.

Jacobsen: What was the family background, e.g., geography, culture, language, and religion or lack thereof?

Perna: We have not only Czech roots, but Polish and Italian ones as well. Christians. My father came from teacher´s family, my mother’s mother was a simple countrywoman, her father was a police inspector, both Christians.

Jacobsen: How was the experience with peers and schoolmates as a child and an adolescent?

Perna: The best as a child. And as an adolescent, hmm, I sometimes felt myself very emotionally alone.

Jacobsen: What have been some professional certifications, qualifications, and trainings earned by you?

Perna: I have found the 4D-differential structure. Now, as the mathematical modeller I am using it not only to design the models themselves, but to control some used commercial software as well 🙂 :). (Crazy, isn´t it?) I have written one book about common sense of relativity and quantum theory. I should note, however, that I like especially philosophy: to maths I had an indifferent relation, until “she started to like me”:).

Jacobsen: What is the purpose of intelligence tests to you?

Perna: Yes, your question is a little rhetorical one. For me, they are themselves strongly purpose dependent. Like in music, where you must train and train, doing math modelling or doing any other “diagnostic work”, you must train and train… :). However, one can also see that many items of IQ tests are subjectively overconstructed or “tricky”, which are attributes not “being used in the problems of nature”. Furthermore, the IQ tests are addictive. One must be careful…

Jacobsen: When was high intelligence discovered for you?

Perna: After the industrial (high) school, I started to work in one design office, where they proposed to administer an IQ test to me. I was found to be a highly intelligent person, without knowing the corresponding IQ concretely.

Jacobsen: When you think of the ways in which the geniuses of the past have either been mocked, vilified, and condemned if not killed, or praised, flattered, platformed, and revered, what seems like the reason for the extreme reactions to and treatment of geniuses? Many alive today seem camera shy – many, not all.

Perna: Extremes have extreme reactions in their surroundings. Both in a positive and negative sense naturally. However, if geniuses demonstrate some superiority and pride towards others, their (either implicit or explicit) isolation is then a healthy phenomenon, evidently deserved by them.

Jacobsen: Who seems like the greatest geniuses in history to you?

Perna: Socrates, Shakespeare, Newton, Euler, Galois, Poe, Mácha, Einstein…

Jacobsen: What differentiates a genius from a profoundly intelligent person?

Perna: Original new ideas possessing beauty.

Jacobsen: Is profound intelligence necessary for genius?

Perna: Yes, one should not consider idiotic geniuses. But profound intelligence can be owned also by “simple”, not particularly educated persons, who are not geniuses.

Jacobsen: What have been some work experiences and jobs held by you?

Perna: I think that I have partially answered this question above. One´s loneliness (“we don´t understand neither it, nor you, but do it!”) could have a devastating effect. Financially as well. Everything is a matter of course in the job, automatically quickly solvable, so why money for such a guy? He (she of course too) is after all not hard working like We (!) are…

Jacobsen: Why pursue this particular job path?

Perna: One feels not only its sense, but it satisfies one’s curiosity as well.

Jacobsen: What are some of the more important aspects of the idea of the gifted and geniuses? Those myths that pervade the cultures of the world. What are those myths? What truths dispel them?

Perna: Possessing a finer mental and emotional charge to perceive a common sense. The myths are connected (about geniuses you mean?) with tendencies to assign the genius properties which can be substituted by properties of artificial intelligence. For example, extreme computational abilities, extreme memory, etc.  You have, roughly speaking, 3 levels of problem solving. – Numerical, logical and symbolical. Machine has a chance to find the pattern in the first two levels. The third level with patterns requiring a very deep sense of feeling and understanding is unreachable for it. Therefore, the genius should be attracted by the symbolic level first of all.

Jacobsen: Any thoughts on the God concept or gods idea and philosophy, theology, and religion?

Perna: God is the very substance of the soul of human being. He provides you with your own identity, as being Scott Jacobsen e.g. 🙂 now, namely within the framework of your eternal manifestations. As to philosophy and theology: I am persuaded that without symbolic parables you have no chance to touch God at all by any language. Concerning religion, the role of humility and deepness of the heart should be the leading features. However, being gifted by these properties, you leave all religions to serve God directly.

Jacobsen: How much does science play into the worldview for you?

Perna: If science, then profound.

Jacobsen: What have been some of the tests taken and scores earned (with standard deviations) for you?

Perna: RAPM 35/36. Then max score of 160 sd15 in one Czech-Mensa supertest, designed specially for persons with IQ 140+. Then 170+ in Tonny Sellen´s Spat1, 180 in one test designed by the professional psychologist and 190 in Betts ZEN. Also some lower scores in more “schulmeistern” tests, mostly 135-150 (working memory requiring, but sometimes only very simple ideas extended within big space).

Jacobsen: What ethical philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Perna: Virtue ethics, I could say. Any action trying to reach harmonic connections.

Jacobsen: What social philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Perna: Any interpretation of a collective or society in terms of free will applied within harmonical possibilities and limitations of the revealed nature.

Jacobsen: What political philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Perna: None.

Jacobsen: What metaphysics makes some sense to you, even the most workable sense to you?

Perna: Entities-Identity searching.

Jacobsen: What worldview-encompassing philosophical system makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Perna: Idealism.

Jacobsen: What provides meaning in life for you?

Perna: To serve in the sense of an engaged compassion.

Jacobsen: Is meaning externally derived, internally generated, both, or something else?

Perna: The sense of life is inherently presented in the human´s soul. Meaning of anything that exists should be searched in a connection with this sense. Such an action will find then its form of internal and external manifestations within duality-phenomena especially.

Jacobsen: Do you believe in an afterlife? If so, why, and what form? If not, why not?

Perna: Yes. Or more expressively said: there is no afterlife, since life can not evolve towards its end called the death. This would be an existential contradiction and therefore as a nonsense immediately destroyed in a furnace of entropy.

Jacobsen: What do you make of the mystery and transience of life?

Perna: Allow me to say that I am convinced (as indicated above) that transience of life is transient sub specie aeternitatis. To avoid a cliche, I accent simultaneously that moments of eternity can be directly perceived via a beauty felt as involving a mystery of life, which is for me the Presence of God in everyone.

Jacobsen: What is love to you?

Perna: What I desire to give and to get more than anything else.

Footnotes

[1] Member, World Genius Directory; Member, United Giga Society.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/perna-1; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

*High range testing (HRT) should be taken with honest skepticism grounded in the limited empirical development of the field at present, even in spite of honest and sincere efforts. If a higher general intelligence score, then the greater the variability in, and margin of error in, the general intelligence scores because of the greater rarity in the population.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Tomáš Perna on Life, Views, and Work: Member, World Genius Directory (1)[Online]. June 2022; 30(A). Available from: https://in-sightjournal.com/perna-1.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 1). Conversation with Tomáš Perna on Life, Views, and Work: Member, World Genius Directory (1). Retrieved from https://in-sightjournal.com/perna-1.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Tomáš Perna on Life, Views, and Work: Member, World Genius Directory (1). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. June. 2022. <https://in-sightjournal.com/perna-1>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Tomáš Perna on Life, Views, and Work: Member, World Genius Directory (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. https://in-sightjournal.com/perna-1.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Tomáš Perna on Life, Views, and Work: Member, World Genius Directory (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (June 2022). https://in-sightjournal.com/perna-1.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Tomáš Perna on Life, Views, and Work: Member, World Genius Directory (1)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <https://in-sightjournal.com/perna-1>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Tomáš Perna on Life, Views, and Work: Member, World Genius Directory (1)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., https://in-sightjournal.com/perna-1.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Tomáš Perna on Life, Views, and Work: Member, World Genius Directory (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): June. 2022. Web. <https://in-sightjournal.com/perna-1>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Tomáš Perna on Life, Views, and Work: Member, World Genius Directory (1)[Internet]. (2022, June 30(A). Available from: https://in-sightjournal.com/perna-1.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

Conversation with Dr. Ricardo Rosselló Nevares on Policies in Governance, Negotiation, Faith and Science, and Fatherhood: Former Governor, Puerto Rico (5)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 1, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,024

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Ricardo Rosselló Nevares holds a PhD in Bioengineering and Biotechnology. He graduated from Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) with a Bachelor’s degree in Chemistry and Biomedical Engineering with a concentration in Developmental Economics. Rosselló continued his academic studies at the University of Michigan, where he completed a master’s degree and a PhD in Bioengineering and Biotechnology. After finalizing his doctoral studies, he completed post-doctoral studies in neuroscience at Duke University, in North Carolina, where he also served as an investigator. Dr. Rosselló was a tenure track assistant professor for the University of Puerto Rico Medical Sciences Campus and Metropolitan University, teaching courses in medicine, immunology, and biochemistry. Dr. Rosselló’s scientific background and training also makes him an expert in important developing areas such as genetic manipulation and engineering, stem cells, viral manipulation, cancer, tissue engineering and smart materials. He discusses: progressive moves; the status of Roman Catholicism amongst the population; a man of science and a man of faith; and being a father.

Keywords: faith, fatherhood, governance, Puerto Rico, Ricardo Rosselló Nevares, science.

Conversation with Dr. Ricardo Rosselló Nevares on Policies in Governance, Negotiation, Faith and Science, and Fatherhood: Former Governor, Puerto Rico (5)

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

*Interview conducted January 21, 2021.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: You mentioned equal pay for equal work. You did work for LGBT+ issues while in office. What were some of these other progressive moves that were not necessarily part of institutionalized culture prior to your government?

Dr. Ricardo Rosselló Nevares[1],[2]*: Here’s a reality. The parties in Puerto Rico are different than others in the United States. If you were trying to superimpose your Canadian system into the United States, there would be things that are similar and things that are different. Even though, we are part of the United States. And it’s not that different. It is still different. One difference, my party tends to be more conservative. Although, if somebody had to describe me, they’d describe me centre-left, probably.

Where I think it misguided analysis, anyway, how I see myself, I am fiscally conservative. I was very much a fiscal hawk. Not because I like to cut or not to spend, but because the initial conditions in Puerto Rico demanded it. By the same token, I felt Puerto Rico was very behind on the times in terms of equal rights. My argument, which I must confess was not successful verbalizing it effectively, was, “Statehooders such as ourselves. Our main argument is that we want equal rights. How can we not? Equal rights can’t be for one thing and not for another. It is conceptual. How can you be for equal rights and then not be for equal rights for women, for example, or for equal pay or for equal rights for LGBTQ?”

I’m not going to say it was smooth. My views evolved throughout the whole process. To give you a few examples of policy, I put into plan for Puerto Rico the elimination of conversion therapies. Everybody signed it. Because they weren’t even looking at it. Their oath was already there. At the beginning, they went with it. Then they started to battle it a little bit. We created a bill. We sent it out to the House and the Senate. It didn’t pass.

So, I looked for the best legal minds I could find and said, “Can I do this by Executive Order?” While it is not as strong, it, certainly, was stronger. I made 13 policy promises for the LGBTQ community and 13 policy promises for the faith-based community. Bear with me for a second, here’s how I made them, I think my story is a convoluted story of success and failure because the success in actually doing all of this was saying, “Okay.” This is from what I told you a little bit about seeing people divided and not knowing why they are divided.

I went to sit people at the table. I took leaders from the LGBTQ community and the faith communities. I said, “Hey, you might not agree with some of these things. But which of these things can you live with? What can you not live with? What do you need on your side?” Try to hash those things. It seems like an incremental approach, but it was working. From my 2.5 years in office, I fulfilled 11 of the 13 for the LGBTQ community and, I think, 10 out of the 13 for the faith-based communities.

The problem was that as we were making progress with everything; they wanted more. Each community wanted more, naturally. Then it became a fist-fight. So, here’s what happened, I sent the bill over to the Senate and the House. They declined it. I signed the executive order. Immediately, they decided to create a bill over there that’s a restrictive abortion bill. Not part of our plan, nowhere near it.

Very much, they knew it was against my vision with this anyways. We weren’t going to tackle it one way or another. I think Puerto Rico had a pretty liberal position relative to the States, at least, with abortion. They wanted to restrict it. It was like a response to me on the other side. They passed the bill. They sent it to me. I veto it. You see all of these things. It starts getting angry. A lot of these folks are the base of my party. I’m actually, on principle, fighting for some of the things that I had agreed upon for a community.

It’s the truth. I was not likely to get the majority of the votes because of the party I was from.

But in the list of things, we created the first LGBTQ council for the governors that would establish policy. We changed – on LGBTQ off the top of my head – the administrative actions for equal treatment on most of the agencies, including healthcare. We established civil rights training on LGBTQ for the police and other forces. There were housing projects that were initiated. One of my concerns was the elderly LGBTQ community. It was sort of a niche. They had to go through the harder times – let’s put it that way. It is still very challenging. Many of them were alone. We were trying to create these concepts of housing for LGBTQ elderly. There was a no bullying policy as well.

We created a pilot program called “The Co-Educational Schools.” Let me step back, my policy in Puerto Rico was to establish a choice schooling system within the island. The reason is: The educational system in Puerto Rico has collapsed. The way I saw it. It’s not that I necessarily want or don’t want private or other sectors in it. We needed to shake the system up, somehow. We open it up, Charters come in.

These co-educational schools come in, which mean, essentially, that they teach without assigning gender roles to work. It is unfortunate. It is true. In schools, at least when I was there, they would think about an engineer as a guy; when they think about cooking, they would think of a girl. These schools are designed as a pilot program of 20 schools across the island to break them completely.

On the other side, we allowed the churches to be part of what are called school churches, which is, essentially, a Catholic school or a Protestant school. But it is part of the educational system. Then you would allow parents to go wherever they wanted, where they chose the place for the kids. That is another policy. Being able to adopt for LGBTQ couples who went through our administration, being able to change your birth certificate for trans, those are, in general, off the top of my head, policies.

It was driven by the idea of having an LGBTQ council. I did the same with women. I created a women’s council. I’m a man. I think I know some of the things. I’m sure I am missing others. I am sure I am missing other things I am not feeling; I need their advice to guide policy moving forward. A lot of it came from those two councils. Those are some of the policies. Of course, the vetoing of the abortion restriction bill was a big one.

They almost went over the veto. They missed by one vote. But they almost passed that, as a rage response after some of the other things that were happening. While getting people together worked for me, in establishing policy, it also inevitably created this chaotic environment at the end. Where, if you moved an inch for somebody else, they would see it as an attack on their essence. Both sides would battle it out. I ended up being attacked by both sides.

That’s the cautionary tale. I would still do it that way, as I think that is the way to do it. I wouldn’t have as much hubris as I had – of thinking I could manage it. There are some things that can spiral out of control. As you said, you need to be more vigilant and not think that you can solve everything.

Jacobsen: Going to these Catholic schools as a youngster, what is the status of Roman Catholicism amongst the population, amongst the hierarchs there, as you’re growing up compared to now? Also, many of these positions would seem boiler plate against many of the standard positions of the hierarchs of the church. I understand there are some differences, sometimes vast, between hierarchs and the laity.

Nevares: I consider myself a man of faith and a man of science. This is something I bring to the equation. I don’t think those two points contradict themselves. I think that science allows us to keep looking forward. Similar to an ant in my backyard not knowing Africa exists and has no idea. There are physiological limitations to our brain capacity. They’re likely to enhance as time moves into the future, if we’re sustainable as humanity.

I respect religion. I see the downfalls of it as well. I respect people having faith and diversity in faith. I was never very much too in tune with just being a Catholic or not. It was the school I went to; my parents didn’t really thrust it upon me, either. I was very independent, luckily, with that sort of thing. So, yes, a lot of positions that I took would fly against the establishment, with those things.

Particularly, my origin from a more conservative-leaning party. The thing is, the conservative nature was more on the fiscal and economic rather than on the social. However, I was open about it. Even though, I confess some of these views evolved. You could get angry at it, but you knew where I was going. It was not just said, but written in a document. I said what I wanted to do. My naïve mentality was that there are some things that both faith-based community and LGBTQ are at odds with, but there is a lot of space where we can progress.

At least, let’s get those out of the way, in Puerto Rico, the Catholicism now compared to then; I can’t give you the numbers. I can recall a Time magazine article that was stunning to me. It shows where Catholicism was growing in the world. Some countries in Africa had the most growth. It was dipping the most in some places. Puerto Rico had like a 23% dip if memory serves, in a span of 20 years.

The reason: Puerto Rico opened a lot of Evangelical churches as well. Obviously, aligned with Christianity, but not with Catholicism, I would say Catholicism has dwindled while these other churches have dwindled. There is, particularly among the young, a growing number of folks who identify as either atheists or agnostics. It is, certainly, more diverse.

Again, the Catholic upbringing, before we were the U.S. colony, we were a Spanish colony. Catholicism was baked into it. Yes, it has fallen down. But again, there’s the environment right now, which is similar to the States. It is unfortunate. Sometimes, you have these two sides metaphorically killing each other, where the vast majority of people on a non-charged situation would agree with a lot of the policy. I’ll give you an example.

I think on a neutral basis. 90% of the people in Puerto Rico would agree with me: Conversion therapy needed to be prohibited. I think, by the same token, 90% of the people believe in religious freedoms. The detail is how you define it, of course. The way I define it. We have a diversified faith-based community in Puerto Rico. We have Muslims. We have Jewish faith. We have Evangelicals and Catholics. One of the activities made after Hurricane Maria. We had all of them represented.

The idea behind that concept of religious freedom was more directed to the following: “Nobody can discriminate against you because of your faith.” Not the other side, “Hey, I can’t bake a cake for you.”

Jacobsen: [Laughing] I remember that.

Nevares: I think 90% of the people would agree. When put into a head of these sides, they become these symbolic victories to either avoid or moved forward some of these things. It gets murky and problematic.

Jacobsen: Now, you consider yourself a man of science and a man of faith. What are the attributes of God?

Nevares: It’s simple. It’s just, “I don’t know.” For me, it’s as challenging to claim there is a bearded man in the clouds as to claim there is absolutely nothing; and it’s just randomness. Could be, I’m not saying they’re not. I’m saying, “I don’t have the foresight or the wherewithal to make those claims. What I do see is there is complexity in the universe, we don’t understand most of it. So, do I think it’s a man who is pulling the strings? Probably not. Do I think there are other forces, which we don’t fully grasp now and might explain or might never understand like consciousness, and so forth? My position: I assume there is a purpose. I don’t think about it necessarily in terms of an afterlife or gods. I just say, “I have faith in that broad definition of what that means to me. That I can’t claim that I understand everything. I can’t claim everything is deterministic, which may or may not be true.”

I do not claim, taking the analogy of the ant, the emergent properties of our consciousness – right now, to us, is the apex in terms of what we analyze. Why should we think rational or logical thinking or scientific thinking, or the analytical basis, is the top tier and the defining element of it all? Again, it’s not taking anything away from science. I think science, as we have been discussing, is a necessary tool to evaluate everything. As with everything, it has its limitations. A lot of it spawned from Newton and his approximations.

Then Einstein made it better, more broad. Yet, Newton’s approximations really run 99.9% of the world around us. I’m saying, in order to achieve some of these higher questions, “I don’t know if some of the tools that we have now are sufficient to get good answers to that.” Obviously, some of those questions are the questions of consciousness, the questions of purpose, afterlife, ‘gods’ if you will.” It is an open-ended book. I see it as something exciting. It is exciting to know and to not know, as there is still a lot to figure out and still a lot to identify.

That’s more or less my worldview. You see it like an onion. You keep peeling layers and information keeps coming. I’ll give an example. I worked on the Human Genome Project, when it was starting at MIT. We thought that we had the road map for humanity. “That’s it! We have the genes. We will be able to solve everything else.” There is a lot more complexity now. You have your proteome. You have interactions. You have junk DNA. All these other things, we are trying to decode that.

We’re figuring out ways to decode all of that. If you ask me, my sense in seeing what has transpired in just my lifetime. We’ve been able to enhance the coding significantly in your and my lifetime. Not to say, in 30 years, we’ll have this conversation, “Wow! Those things talked about back then were outdated and obsolete.” My hunch says, “We’re in an accelerated pace of these things happening with artificial intelligence, with genetic engineering, climate change and the necessity to innovate with it, space travel. Things are going to take a quantum leap forward and have novel systems to survey the landscape.”

Jacobsen: You mentioned having early warnings, then having a gap, then having a late morning for work. What does being a father mean for you?

Nevares: It is a blessing. I’ll tell you. I confess like every father. When you’re in the middle of it, it is grinding.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Nevares: It is tough. From my perspective, when I ran for governor, I had my baby girl in 2014. I was already on the road 20 hours a day. Then I had my son. My wife was pregnant the hurricane came. She was 7 months pregnant when it came. I, practically, never saw them. The silver lining to all of this. You try to make sense and think about the good things that you have as well. I have been able to spend more time as a father. It’s not all rosy all of the time. It is frustrating right before.

Today, I woke up at 4 in the morning. I did some work. Then my kids wake up, then I’m with them for a little bit. My daughter has class. Today, the first part of the class, I wanted to be with her. She’s in first grade. The attention span of not only her, but all the other first graders is impossible to teach a class to first graders. I don’t know how they do it, but God bless a teacher’s patience. I cherish it.

You see – with kids – all of this potential. To me, again, even though, the world is getting more complicated in all these things. I think my role as a parent is just to help them identify something that makes them happy, lead them, give them advice. My eventual goal is, whether it be becoming a scientist or becoming a painter or a dancer or a builder – whatever they want to be, to try to lead them to make their own decisions and to be happy.

I think the two areas, which I think are most important. Which is sort of in the face of traditional education, two qualities that I see that are very important for humanity moving forward is your capacity to adjust to a lot of the changes. Parallel to that, your ability to critically think, to learn and to unlearn. It is weird. I don’t think that was said 40 years ago. But one’s capacity to unlearn is almost as important as one’s capacity to learn because of all of the changes occurring. They are good kids. I am enjoying tis time. Whatever happens, I hope they can lead happy lives. That’s really the crux of it.

Footnotes

[1] Former Governor, Puerto Rico.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/rossello-5; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

*High range testing (HRT) should be taken with honest skepticism grounded in the limited empirical development of the field at present, even in spite of honest and sincere efforts. If a higher general intelligence score, then the greater the variability in, and margin of error in, the general intelligence scores because of the greater rarity in the population.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Dr. Ricardo Rosselló Nevares on Policies in Governance, Negotiation, Faith and Science, and Fatherhood: Former Governor, Puerto Rico (5)[Online]. June 2022; 30(A). Available from: https://in-sightjournal.com/rossello-5.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 1). Conversation with Dr. Ricardo Rosselló Nevares on Policies in Governance, Negotiation, Faith and Science, and Fatherhood: Former Governor, Puerto Rico (5). Retrieved from https://in-sightjournal.com/rossello-5.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Dr. Ricardo Rosselló Nevares on Policies in Governance, Negotiation, Faith and Science, and Fatherhood: Former Governor, Puerto Rico (5). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. June. 2022. <https://in-sightjournal.com/rossello-5>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Dr. Ricardo Rosselló Nevares on Policies in Governance, Negotiation, Faith and Science, and Fatherhood: Former Governor, Puerto Rico (5).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. https://in-sightjournal.com/rossello-5.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Dr. Ricardo Rosselló Nevares on Policies in Governance, Negotiation, Faith and Science, and Fatherhood: Former Governor, Puerto Rico (5).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (June 2022). https://in-sightjournal.com/rossello-5.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Dr. Ricardo Rosselló Nevares on Policies in Governance, Negotiation, Faith and Science, and Fatherhood: Former Governor, Puerto Rico (5)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <https://in-sightjournal.com/rossello-5>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Dr. Ricardo Rosselló Nevares on Policies in Governance, Negotiation, Faith and Science, and Fatherhood: Former Governor, Puerto Rico (5)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., https://in-sightjournal.com/rossello-5.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Dr. Ricardo Rosselló Nevares on Policies in Governance, Negotiation, Faith and Science, and Fatherhood: Former Governor, Puerto Rico (5).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): June. 2022. Web. <https://in-sightjournal.com/rossello-5>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Dr. Ricardo Rosselló Nevares on Policies in Governance, Negotiation, Faith and Science, and Fatherhood: Former Governor, Puerto Rico (5)[Internet]. (2022, June 30(A). Available from: https://in-sightjournal.com/rossello-5.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links June be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

The Greenhorn Chronicles 6: Sandy Bell, B.Sc., M.A. on Windhorse Retreat, Horse Sense, and Resources (2)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.E, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 1, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,099

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Sandy Bell’s personal biography states: “Windhorse Retreat was born in early 2014 when I transitioned from the urban to the rural lifestyle to pursue my dream of living with horses and offering equine facilitated personal development.  My goal was to establish Windhorse as a place where ‘horses help us reach our full potential,’ and that included my own life-long learning.  At my day retreat in central Alberta, horses and humans come together in deeply meaningful ways for unique learning experiences.  As well as providing equine assisted learning opportunities with horses as your guides, I host related workshops and clinics, so you can learn to help your equine friends or deepen your relationships with them. Community development and volunteerism is core to my lifestyle, so you’ll find me volunteering on committees or boards as the opportunities arise.  Currently, I serve the Alberta equestrian community as the President of the Board of Directors of the Alberta Equestrian Federation. I hold a B.Sc. (Psychology), a M.A. (Communications & Technology) and am an alumnus of EAL-Canada.  I’m a member of the Alberta Association of Complementary Equine Therapy as a Craniosacral Practitioner and Energy Based Practitioner.” She discusses: Windhorse Retreat; Covid impacting the industry; some misconceptions about the economic feasibility of owning horses or having a facility; the equestrian world of a century ago compared to now; gigantic puppy-dogs; horse sense; elected president; separation economically in Canadian society; books, documentaries, or interviews; and final thoughts.

Keywords: Alberta, Alberta Equestrian Federation, equestrianism, Ian Millar, Sandy Bell, Windhorse Retreat.

The Greenhorn Chronicles 6: Sandy Bell, B.Sc., M.A. on Windhorse Retreat, Horse Sense, and Resources (2)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What kind of activities are provided at Windhorse Retreat?

Sandy Bell[1],[2]: Currently, we are shut down because of Covid. Before then, we offered equine facilitated personal development for individuals and for groups. We also offered workshops that were related to horse wellness. So, for example, equine for first-aid or Reiki for horses. Things of that nature. We would consider special events. For example, if the Girl Guides wanted to come for a day to learn about horses, then we would set up something custom designed for them. All of those things, we found impossible to do with the changing landscape of Covid. We have just quietly shut our doors for now – so to speak, and are in the wait-and-see mode.

Jacobsen: How is Covid impacting the industry in the same way?

Bell: Yes, but, maybe, more of a negative impact than I’ve felt, I’ve always been able to have other income coming in, so I could feed my horses, for example. I think some people have had a terrible time in that regard. Last year, the Alberta Equestrian Federation set up a special emergency fund for horses. They supported people’s requests for funds for short-term needs for food and medications in Alberta. Some of the stories of hardship were rather heartbreaking. People lost their jobs. They had a horse that they cared deeply about, and were wondering how they could keep them. We helped them a little bit to make that happen.

Jacobsen: What are some misconceptions about the economic feasibility of owning horses or having a facility for most people? Those who are not in the industry and don’t know.

Bell: I think some of the misconceptions are based on what people see in the media, in terms of the Spruce Meadows kind of events. They might think everyone who has a horse is rich [Laughing] and can afford to show at that level. I think that’s pretty common. I think that might even deter some people from becoming involved because it’s like, “Oh boy, I couldn’t do that. It would be costly, cost too much.” There is a misconception that they couldn’t learn to ride or to drive a horse. Those are the two that come to mind. “It’s not for me because of my aptitude barriers, talent, or finances.”

Jacobsen: How would you compare the equestrian world of a century ago compared to now in Canadian society? How is it different with the combustible engine being completely ubiquitous compared to a time when it wasn’t necessarily so?

Bell: People knew horses then because they lived with them intimately. They worked with them every day. They were their partners in the economy. Imagine managing a city with stables right downtown and horses all over, people riding them, driving them, pulling wagons. People were very comfortable with horses because of that. Life was paced differently because it was by horsepower. Of course, then came the 1900’s first World War, the horses were an integral part of the war effort. You read the accounts of how many millions of horses died in battle. So, horses were part of that as well. Very possibly, that’s the reason why things turned out the way they did in the wars because the Allied forces could win with the horsepower behind them. The farms and the ranches here in Alberta who gave horses, shipped them overseas to the war effort, is an extraordinary thing to think about now.

For example, Bar U Ranch in the south of Calgary had, at the time, a world-renowned Percheron breeding program and Percherons from Alberta were a significant contributor to the war effort. After that, people came back home. As you say, the engine took over and slowly work horses on the farm were phased out for tractors. The world changed for horses. We thought of them in a different way. They became a day-to-day, not partners, companions for sport and for recreation. I’m fortunate to live in the country, where around me; there are still some people who use horses in their ranch work, still in very traditional ways. That’s pretty neat to see.

So, they still have that kind of partnerships with horses. I think we might be missing something not having a broader intimate relationship with the horse, but I don’t know that we can [Laughing]. I don’t know if we can introduce them back into the cities [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing] Maybe downtown carriage tours in cities.

Bell: Yes. Someone like yourself who was recently thrown into the horse world. You, probably, are feeling some of that going, “Wow. This is interesting how I feel whenever I am around horses.”

Jacobsen: It is fascinating, the feeling they give you. You can’t, as someone new to it, put a word to it, yet. What’s the word coming to mind for you as someone who has been part of it much more than me?

Bell: You begin to see them as individual beings and appreciate the wordless, or the unspoken, power that they have, and to humbled by their willingness to work with and put up with people. They’re quite remarkable creatures.

Jacobsen: I’m surprised in the stalls how goofy some of them are.

Bell: Yes!

Jacobsen: They’re like gigantic puppy-dogs. You clean the stall, put in fresh shavings, and they go hog wild. They roll around. It’s very funny to see.

Bell: Yes, “The majestic equine, the majestic horse,” has some very goofy sides, sometimes.

Jacobsen: The elegance of them comes when they are out of the stall and doing something as simple as lunging. Let’s say they’re doing a canter or a trot in circles, like a light jog, they’re extraordinarily rhythmic in the innate pace that they have, then they get in the stall and do all these goofy things. When I first got into the industry, it was hard to put those two pictures together. It was like two animals in one.

Bell: They are complex, for sure. We should not underestimate them. Surely, we know their brains are different from us. They must have a different way of thinking and being. But it is quite a remarkable brain, nonetheless. I came across an article, recently, about the differences between the horse brain and the human brain are part of the magic or the foundation for the relationship that we can have with them.

So, if you’re really connected with your horse when you’re riding, and you can feel, if you can think that thought, “Let’s canter now,” the subtle changes in your body can communicate to them. You can get it. You can seamlessly, like a centaur, just fly on. The neuroscience behind the horse-human relationship is starting to fascinate me a lot. I need to read more about it.

Jacobsen: This is a new field, where, for a long time, it was more of an intuitive grasp of it rather than a formal empirical study of the human mind in relation to the horse mind.

Bell: They talked about this. Now, there is the neuroscience explaining it. It is not just woo-woo. These people are not just a little off [Laughing]. It’s not, “No, this is real.” [Laughing].

Jacobsen: When I first talked about entering the industry, people would say things like, “All horse people are crazy.” I said, “Great! I’m crazy too. I’ll fit right in.”

Bell: [Laughing].

Jacobsen: Ian Millar, actually, in some footage, some video footage, I don’t recall the source of it, having source amnesia. However, the content was very similar to other things, which I’ve heard from equestrians. Which is, the idea of “the feel” or “feel.” The idea of simply having an intuitive sense with a horse based on experience or innate talent of feeling animals, of just knowing how to work a horse, get it to go left, get it to go right, get it to do what you want, to have the relationship built, but based on the sense, that horse sense, developed over time.

Bell: Whatever you want to call it, is it intuition? Is it some gift you’re born with? Are you feeling their body with your body and vice versa? Because it is all non-verbal. It’s very complex. So, when we horse people get together and talk to each other, and non-horse people hear us, they think we’re crazy.

Jacobsen: There is a symbiotic relationship there for sure. What was the feeling when you were elected president?

Bell: I was very honoured to have people put their faith in me to steward the organization. My goals were to strengthen government, governance, and financial accountability. That resonated with people. So, that was a nice endorsement of how I thought I could contribute to the organization. I previously held the position of treasurer. So, I had a solid grasp of the finances of the organization. I thought I could contribute to the governance structure. Yes, it was really an honour, humbling really, to have people say, “Yeah, we believe you can lead the organization in this way.”

Jacobsen: Do you think a separation economically in Canadian society in some places at some levels can prevent entrance into equestrianism, whether founding a facility, owning the horse, or getting lessons?

Bell: Most definitely. It is something that I think all the equestrian societies or federations should take a look at because involvement in equestrianism is declining. The barriers to becoming involved are part of that reason. What can we do about that? From my own personal circumstance, though as a girl with a passion of horses, I was on the wrong side of the tracks to do anything about it. I’m very sure. There are inner city kids who would love to connect with horses. You have to figure out ways to make that happen. It is a good thing. I don’t know if you have heard of the Urban Cowboys in Philadelphia.

Jacobsen: No, I haven’t.

Bell: Yes, it has been something that’s been part of inner city Philadelphia forever, sounds like. It is people who actually board or stable and ride their horses in inner city Philadelphia. They are giving back to the community by engaging youth that would never have an opportunity to be with a horse. It would be really neat to do something like that, like in Calgary or in Edmonton. Not sure how we’d do it. They have such a longstanding history of being there physically present in inner city Philadelphia. It’d be pretty hard to move them out. We would just need to find a space in inner city Calgary to set something up.

Jacobsen: Would you recommend any books, documentaries, or interviews for individuals who would want to get involved in equestrianism in Alberta?

Bell: I would recommend all the resources on the Alberta Equestrian Federation website and to follow our social media feeds. There’s lots of entry-level and little bit above information, programs, at Equine Guelph – University of Guelph’s equine program. Personally, I like to read about horses. So, anything I can get my hands on from a book about basic grooming to something that’s a little more nuanced like Zen Mind, Zen Horse by Allan Hamilton who is a neuroscientist. There are lots of different kinds of books out there. So, go visit your library and talk to your librarian about whatever your interests are, at whatever level, people who have horses or have a collection books are always to happy share or pass them on.

They could even be exercises to do with your horse if you have one of your own, or more about understanding your horse. So, the body language of horses and communication with horses, that sort of thing. Movies and things like that, there are some good ones out there. You will find horse people watching a Western movie and critiquing the riding [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Bell: Hidalgo is an interesting movie about someone who did a race across Africa and their experience. Of course, for all the younger people, all the oldie but goldy ones, like Black Beauty, The Black Stallion, The Black Stallion Returns.

Jacobsen: Any final thoughts on the interview today?

Bell: I want to thank you, Scott. It’s been fun. I’m really excited for your personal horse adventure. How you’re growing and exploring, and figuring out what fits for you.

Jacobsen: Thank you.

Bell: So, thank you for giving us a ring and allowing me the opportunity to talk about my personal experience and the Alberta Equestrian Federation, and just horse stuff in general.

Jacobsen: It’s been lovely, Sandy, thank you.

Footnotes

[1] President, Board of Directors, Alberta Equestrian Federation; Principal, Windhorse Retreat.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 1, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/bell-2; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightpublishing.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 6: Sandy Bell, B.Sc., M.A. on Windhorse Retreat, Horse Sense, and Resources (2)[Online]. June 2022; 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/bell-2.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 1). The Greenhorn Chronicles 6: Sandy Bell, B.Sc., M.A. on Windhorse Retreat, Horse Sense, and Resources (2). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/bell-2.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 6: Sandy Bell, B.Sc., M.A. on Windhorse Retreat, Horse Sense, and Resources (2). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E, June. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/bell-2>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 6: Sandy Bell, B.Sc., M.A. on Windhorse Retreat, Horse Sense, and Resources (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/bell-2.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Greenhorn Chronicles 6: Sandy Bell, B.Sc., M.A. on Windhorse Retreat, Horse Sense, and Resources (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E (June 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/bell-2.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 6: Sandy Bell, B.Sc., M.A. on Windhorse Retreat, Horse Sense, and Resources (2)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/bell-2>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 6: Sandy Bell, B.Sc., M.A. on Windhorse Retreat, Horse Sense, and Resources (2)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/bell-2.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 6: Sandy Bell, B.Sc., M.A. on Windhorse Retreat, Horse Sense, and Resources (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): June. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/bell-2>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 6: Sandy Bell, B.Sc., M.A. on Windhorse Retreat, Horse Sense, and Resources (2)[Internet]. (2022, June 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/bell-2.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links June be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

The American Medical System and Physicians 3: Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI on Burnout, Quack Medicine, and Litigious American Culture

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.E, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: May 22, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,781

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI is an Ivy League academic physician and scientist at the University of Pennsylvania. He is a member of the Mega Society, the OlympIQ Society and past member of the Prometheus Society. He is the designer of the cryptic Mega Society logo. He is member of several scientific societies and a Fellow of the American College of Radiology and of the American Heart Association. He is the co-Founder of the Arrhythmia Imaging Research (AIR) lab at Penn. His research is funded by the National Institute of Health. He is an international leader in three different fields: cardiovascular imaging, artificial intelligence and cybersecurity. He discusses: cruelty; burn out; treatment of physicians; ‘alternative’ medicine; ignorance; masquerading as knowledge; Dr. Oz-ification of culture; scientific illiteracy; deceased or now-disabled colleagues; UDHR; International Labour Organization; Dr. Oz; defense mechanisms or infrastructure to protect themselves from the litigious patients; and those with fewer means and less authority in medical institutions.

Keywords: American, Benoit Desjardins, Medicine, physicians, quack medicine, science, United States.

The American Medical System and Physicians 3: Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI on Burnout, Quack Medicine, and Litigious American Culture

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

*This interview represents Dr. Desjardins’ opinion, combined to the current content of the published medical literature, and not necessarily the opinion of his employers.*

On the medical-legal system in the U.S.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: How is the U.S. comparable to the Middle Ages with patients blaming physicians for illness?

Dr. Benoit Desjardins: It is often taught that the U.S. has been the only country since the Middle Ages in which people blame physicians for their diseases. There is no personal accountability anymore in the U.S. Every problem Americans face is someone else’s fault. They blame most problems on immigrants or rich people, but they blame healthcare problems on physicians. If a woman delivers an imperfect baby, she blames it on the physician and tries to extort money. If a man develops lung cancer after chain-smoking for 50 years, he will often go over his past medical record with lawyers to see if a physician could be blamed for his cancer. Sometimes they discover early imperceptible evidence about cancer and then try to extort money from physicians. Most U.S. courtrooms in medical-legal trials are like the courtroom from the movie “Idiocracy,” where massively ignorant, scientifically illiterate people try to blame top physicians for patients’ diseases. The U.S. medical-legal system has been the laughingstock of the entire planet for more than fifty years.

Jacobsen: Outside of individual violent reprisals by former or current patients, what about the legal repercussions? Where, individual patients may have legitimate claims and may not. However, in a litigious culture, as in the U.S., this can be a major issue. The general litigious culture may become magnified in a context of life-and-death, and general illness, issues. So, what happens?

Desjardins: An entire sector of the U.S. “justice” system has been created to blame physicians for patients’ diseases. There are thousands of primarily frivolous lawsuits filed against physicians in the U.S. every year. Corrupt prosecutors use four well-known techniques of deception to extort money: (1) they suppress published scientific evidence supporting the correct actions by physicians, (2) they commit massive perjury against physicians, (3) they use flawed reasoning techniques from con-artists to fool jurors, and (4) they pay unqualified “experts” to misrepresent the standards of medical practice in court. In addition, U.S. judges threaten physicians with jail time if they try to prove in court that they followed correct science, after corrupt prosecutors suppress published scientific evidence. In other countries, using deception to extort money is a crime. In the U.S., it is the modus operandi of a 55-billion-dollar financial extortion industry against physicians and hospitals, affecting up to 80% of U.S. physicians in some specialties.

Jacobsen: Also, how is the court system in Pennsylvania?

Desjardins: In the past ten years, Philadelphia has been exposed in the medical literature and at medical conferences as having one of the most corrupt, scientifically illiterate medical-legal systems on Earth. The Philadelphia “justice” system frequently commits crimes against innocent physicians.

Jacobsen: What are some fallouts or likely outcomes from this idiocy?

Desjardins: It has led to a severe shortage of physicians in Philadelphia. Physicians have left the city by the boatload, sometimes more than 50% of entire divisions resigning en masse, and we experience significant difficulties recruiting. Several city hospitals have permanently shut down in recent years, and many more are on the verge of shutting down.

Jacobsen: How does this impact the future of the field to recruit sufficiently qualified, even talented, individuals? Where do they go? What about those better physicians in the field who can hack it – the workload and the B.S., but don’t want to deal with the sheer tonnage of nonsense and risks to livelihood?

Desjardins:  In the past ten years, my clinical section, which is in desperate need of more radiologists, has not been able to recruit any radiologists. We have even offered some promising recruits the possibility to work remotely. By never setting foot in Philadelphia, this eliminates their chances of getting assaulted or stabbed in the face by patients. Still, they refused as they do not want to be associated with the city of Philadelphia for the reasons described above.

Jacobsen: How do U.S. physicians keep one another in check, too, in case of malpractice – so back to higher levels of healthcare education and authority?

Desjardins: A tiny portion of lawsuits against physicians are genuine cases of malpractice due to poorly trained or incompetent physicians. Checks and balances are in place to either address the educational shortcomings or remove the practice license if necessary. Most lawsuits are crimes committed against excellent physicians by corrupt prosecutors in cases of bad outcomes or complications, which are part of expected outcomes in medicine. There is no lesson for physicians to learn from these cases. They are discussed in the literature and at conferences to educate physicians about the corruption and scientific illiteracy of the U.S. “justice” system and prepare them to become crime victims.

Jacobsen: Have physicians built any defense mechanisms or infrastructure to protect themselves from the litigious patients, when they inevitably arise, or the top-heavy bureaucratic culture?

Desjardins: There is a malpractice insurance system for physicians, a 55-billion-dollar industry. When physicians become victims of too many frivolous lawsuits, the cost of their malpractice insurance rapidly increases until, at some point, they cannot afford to pay the exorbitant fees and are forced to abandon their medical careers. Physicians practicing in cities with the most corrupt medical-legal systems tend to leave their medical profession early, worsening the massive shortage of physicians.

Jacobsen: How does this – the litigious patients out there and the maltreatment of healthcare professionals by institutions – impact those with fewer means and less authority in medical institutions, e.g., nurses, nurse-practitioners, and the like?

Desjardins: Nurses and nurse-practitioners have their own malpractice insurance system, although physicians and hospitals are the main targets of prosecutors. Nurses also have difficult working conditions, including forced overtime. But they cannot be exposed to working conditions as poor as physicians, as nurses have a union. For example, nurses are “officially” not allowed to work more than 12 consecutive hours in most states. It does not include occasional forced overtime. Some physicians are required to work up to 72 straight hours. It would be illegal and inhumane to make nurses work as long as physicians.

On medical quackery in the U.S.

Jacobsen: What are common cases of individuals able to use the term “doctor,” “physician,” etc., by law, or not, when, in fact, no legitimate training or grounds for the claims to the titles exist?

Desjardins: Many professions outside medicine use the term “doctor.” Any Ph.D. in any field has the right to be called a “doctor,” for example, Dr. Jill Biden has a doctorate in educational leadership. Dr. Phil McGraw (Dr. Phil) is not a physician but provides medical advice on T.V. He has a Doctorate in Psychology but is not a licensed psychologist. In the healthcare field, Doctors of Osteopathy (D.O.s) have the right to be called “doctors” and practice medicine in the U.S. but cannot practice medicine in some other countries. Chiropractors and naturopaths are called “doctors” and practice healthcare but are not physicians. They constitute a hazard to healthcare and are not allowed to practice in most countries. There are cases of individuals pretending to be physicians who practice medicine without training until they are exposed.

Jacobsen: There’s plenty of bullshit remedies out there in the public sold by the boatload. What about medical institutions who buy into them and begin to practice them? What are cases of this? Are there any consequences for individuals engaged in giving out known ineffective treatments?

Desjardins: The medical community scientifically assesses remedies to determine their effectiveness. If they are proven ineffective, respectable institutions will not adopt them. Some physicians dispense some ineffective or dangerous therapy and can lose their license. Recently U.S. judges forced physicians to administer ivermectin (horse deworming medicine) to COVID patients, an act of pure idiocy. It reflects the mindboggling scientific illiteracy of the U.S. justice system. Physicians who have administered such medication have been fired for incompetence and stupidity.

Jacobsen: Also, what are the problems with ‘alternative’ medicine, naturopathic medicine, and so on?

Desjardins: They don’t work. Just look at the late Steve Jobs.

Jacobsen: I wrote a short article critical of Naturopathy in British Columbia, Canada, a while ago – a quickie. A while goes, I received a lengthy email or digital letter from the President of the British Columbia Naturopathic Association (B.C.NA.) at the time. Obviously, the person was displeased. I responded with the same so-called baseless critiques towards this individual, once, saying I would only do it a single time, but covered the territory well.

It was enough to deal with the issue. They were orthogonal to the evidence-based claims, so wrong, pointless – by my estimation, and such lightweight critiques, even a young independent journalist could deal with them. Yet, these forms of alternative practice are present, proliferating, and have been with cultures forever, though more complex in the nonsense with technology.

It’s simply less excusable as medicine and meta-analytic studies’ powers give, not deep insight but, a modicum of reasonable thou-shalts and thou-shalt nots of good health guidelines in general, as you stipulated earlier.

People seem entitled. Professionals who spend their time thinking and researching narcissism claim a rise in narcissism over decades. Entitlement is a facet of narcissism. How is the Dr. Oz-ification of culture and medicine halting progress on the front of proper treatment of dis-ease in American society?

Desjardins: Some individuals with top credentials in a specific field sometimes become self-appointed experts in entirely different fields. Dr. Mehmet Oz is one of those. He is a retired Ivy League Professor and cardiothoracic surgeon fro Columbia University. He is a scholar with top credentials in a highly specialized field, who has become a television personality and started providing general health advice. He has promoted pseudoscience, alternative medicine, faith healing, and paranormal beliefs. Dr. Scott Atlas, a prominent neuroradiologist from Stanford, was appointed by Trump as a coronavirus advisor, an area in which he had no expertise. He then spread massive misinformation about COVID and advised against the official policy of the CDC. Pseudo-experts are tools that ignorant, corrupt people use to spread misinformation in the U.S. These pseudo-experts halt progress of good evidence-based medical policy and affect the quality of care.

Jacobsen: Other than Dr. Oz, who are other ignorance-mongers becoming rich off offering fake medicine?

Desjardins: There are several, especially given the rapid growth of social media. But the most prominent media personalities doctors are Dr. Andrew Weil, a physician and expert in integrative medicine, and Dr. Phil McGraw, a T.V. unlicensed psychologist. Weil has a net worth of $100 million (similar to Dr. Oz). McGraw has a net worth of $460 million. They both offer good and bad advice and are both very entertaining.

Footnotes

[1] Academic Physician; Member, OlympIQ Society; Member, Mega Society.

[2] Individual Publication Date: May 22, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/american-medicine-3; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightpublishing.com/insight-issues/.

*High range testing (HRT) should be taken with honest skepticism grounded in the limited empirical development of the field at present, even in spite of honest and sincere efforts. If a higher general intelligence score, then the greater the variability in, and margin of error in, the general intelligence scores because of the greater rarity in the population.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. The American Medical System and Physicians 3: Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI on Burnout, Quack Medicine, and Litigious American Culture[Online]. May 2022; 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/american-medicine-3.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, May 22). The American Medical System and Physicians 3: Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI on Burnout, Quack Medicine, and Litigious American Culture. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/american-medicine-3.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. The American Medical System and Physicians 3: Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI on Burnout, Quack Medicine, and Litigious American Culture. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E, May. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/american-medicine-3>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “The American Medical System and Physicians 3: Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI on Burnout, Quack Medicine, and Litigious American Culture.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/american-medicine-3.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The American Medical System and Physicians 3: Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI on Burnout, Quack Medicine, and Litigious American Culture.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E (May 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/american-medicine-3.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The American Medical System and Physicians 3: Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI on Burnout, Quack Medicine, and Litigious American Culture’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/american-medicine-3>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The American Medical System and Physicians 3: Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI on Burnout, Quack Medicine, and Litigious American Culture’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/american-medicine-3.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “The American Medical System and Physicians 3: Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI on Burnout, Quack Medicine, and Litigious American Culture.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): May. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/american-medicine-3>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The American Medical System and Physicians 3: Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI on Burnout, Quack Medicine, and Litigious American Culture[Internet]. (2022, May 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/american-medicine-3.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

Conversation with Masaaki Yamauchi on Thoughts About I.Q., Time, Consciousness, and Metaphysics: Administrator, ESOTERIQ Society (3)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: May 22, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,425

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Masaaki Yamauchi is the Administrator of ESOTERIQ Society. He discusses: mother; the town of 14,000 people; the spirit; acquisition of a graduate degree; the high-IQ communities now; the concept of IQ increasing or decreasing in cultural importance; high-IQ societies self-destruct; life; math; manufacturing industrial jobs; the WIN seven league; no religious dogma; social sensitivity; metaphysics; a miracle; time; and consciousness.

Keywords: administrator, ESOTERIQ, intelligence, IQ, Japanese, JAPANIQ Society, Masaaki Yamauchi.

Conversation with Masaaki Yamauchi on Thoughts About I.Q., Time, Consciousness, and Metaphysics: Administrator, ESOTERIQ Society (3)

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What was the “heavy disease” killing your mother?

Masaaki Yamauchi[1],[2]*: Sorry, that is a confidential information between my family and relations. My mother`s soul will be reborn at next body in the future. Then, I will meet her again someday.

Jacobsen: Did the town of 14,000 people on the countryside make life simpler for you, growing up?

Yamauchi: Yes, It was a simple life. Just I usually read many books in the library at the high school student. I had never felt that life was bored.

Jacobsen: What is the spirit to you?

Yamauchi: There are plenty of meaning about it, but it mainly implies non-physical existence in my definition.

Jacobsen: How are your studies progressing towards acquisition of a graduate degree?

Yamauchi: I wish I would go to a graduate school of Mathematical physics (almost same as theoretical physics) after just graduating from my college with Math major and Physics minor. I hope acquisition of a Master`s degree in social science or humanities, not natural science any more at the present.

Jacobsen: What do you think is needed from the high-IQ communities now?

Yamauchi: No needs. Just I keep my societies (ESOTERIQ and EVANGELIQ) by the end of my life.

Jacobsen: Is the concept of IQ increasing or decreasing in cultural importance? In that, are people taking it more or less seriously, and why?

Yamauchi: In 1996, one famous book, the Bell Curve by Richard J. Herrnstein and Charles Murry, was disputed in U.S.A. It does not make sense about the controversy because IQ is just a psychometric tool psychologically and statistical distribution mathematically. IQ is not factor of human intelligence. All current 8 billion people belong somewhere between 5 and 195 on normal distribution at any time. I am strongly certain that 195 scorer does not imply smarter than 5 scorer.

For example, there are two persons who won 33 times and lost 33 times in Rock-Paper-Scissors-world population championship respectively.

Is really the 33 times winner much luckier than the 33 times loser?

The answer is no because luckiness of both of them is absolutely equal to

1 in 2^33 = 1 in 8.5 billions.

The frequency is just a statistical necessary on binomial distribution.

Let me say again.

“Supposing it never happens to anybody subjectively, it always happens somebody objectively in the world”

I have mentioned before about relationship between normal distribution and binomial distribution on the first interview.

195 scorer (highest IQ person) and 5 scorer (lowest IQ person) are to what 33 times winner (luckiest person) and 33 times loser (unluckiest person) statistically.

Somebody says “Albert Einstein`s IQ was 160, 180 or 200 over!”

So what?

All historical geniuses were recorded by great academic performance, not IQ score itself.

All people can have each own absolute luckiness and intelligence as in 1 in 80 billions.

Jacobsen: Why do most high-IQ societies self-destruct?

Yamauchi: Each founder has each own reason to sustain a society.

Jacobsen: What do you hope to get out of life?

Yamauchi: Living itself. I will leave from this planet and go back to my mother star Sirius after end of my reincarnation on the Earth.

Jacobsen: What kinds of math have you tutored?

Yamauchi: Elementary algebra to high school calculus.

Jacobsen: What are the manufacturing industrial jobs for you?

Yamauchi: Several kinds. Haulage, auto parts, pharmaceuticals, electronic components and semiconductor.

Jacobsen: What most impresses you about the WIN seven league?

Yamauchi: The EVANGELIQ society I founded for Dr.Evangelos Katsioulis‘s 37th birthday gift was admitted to the 37th society. It made me so happy and it was such an honorable.

Jacobsen: Even though, you have no religious dogma. What religious dogma seems reasonable to you?

Yamauchi: Almost all religion has a founder and scripture, but my dogma does not keep neither. My reasonable belief follows to my own inspiration, loving myself and enjoying life everyday.

Jacobsen: What is “social sensitivity” to you?

Yamauchi: Social sensitivity is one of emotional intelligence, an ability to detect the emotions of others. There is no correlation between succeed at project and team`s average IQ.

Jacobsen: Why define metaphysics as a kind of spiritualism?

Yamauchi: Metaphysics is separated into two words “Meta (over)” and “Physics (matter)” which imply inquiring non-physical. Spirit is always non-physical life, so metaphysics is a kind of spiritualism to me.

Jacobsen: How would define everything as a miracle?

Yamauchi: I really love Albert Einstein`s quote which is “There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle.”

One second, one minutes, one hour and one day are filled with a miracle at the given mechanical moment.

The minimum unit of quantum time is made from plank time (5.391*10^-44 s).

Therefore, every moment is momentarily created by the infinite series from the time.

Jacobsen: In our first interview, you stated, “Time will come from future to past, not past to future. All causes occur by a reason from future, not a past event.” Can you expand on this reasoning, please?

Yamauchi: Every event in our life is just a neutral fact even if war, terrorism murder, massacre and pandemic like corona virus on the Earth. A word “Responsibility” comes from combination of “Response” and “Ability”. We have nothing to fear because we can have responsibility to response all events by our ability. Our future will be created by our responsibility, not events themselves. We always hold two choices “Reaction” and “Response” which define negative judgement and positive judgement respectively when one event happens to our life.

For instance, getting a new job after dismissing from a company means what getting a new job is cause, not effect. Dismissing from a company is effect, not a cause.

Jacobsen: How does our consciousness fall into the brain? In this way, how are you technically defining consciousness?

Yamauchi: I suppose brain is to consciousness what matter is to mind. Bertrand Russell said “What is matter? Never mind. What is mind? Doesn`t matter” This is the best joke I like.

By the way, let me ask seriously. Does a line really exist?

According to the Euclid`s elements, “A line is length without breadth”

If so, nobody can see it!

We cannot prove the existence of line in this way.

Therefore, a line exists imaginary, but does not exist actually.

As well as a line, consciousness exists imaginary, but does not exist actually since brain is almost everything as far as our physical body sustains life activity.

However, consciousness separate from brain in a moment when we die (after brain disappear) then move to non-physical world (imaginary world).

I can tell you one pragmatic example in neuroscience field.

There was one famous man named H.M (a man without hippocampus).

https://www.npr.org/2007/02/24/7584970/h-m-s-brain-and-the-history-of-memory

The person had no concept about past and future because he was not able to keep any episode memory.

His consciousness was always on now and today when he woke up every morning, no yesterday`s memory, no tomorrow`s plan.

He was able to know how to ride a bicycle and use some tools even though he had no hippocampus.

That is, past training skill was recorded in different part whose name was basal ganglia and cerebellum as procedural memory.

Same as H.M story, almost all people can never keep past life memory since past life episode memory always disappears before hippocampus cell creates while we are growing up in mother`s uterus, but past life skill can succeed to next body`s basal ganglia and cerebellum as procedural memory.

Brain is to consciousness what egg-york is to egg-white in my theory. Brain itself (the York) as a matter disappears, but only consciousness (the white) as a non-physical matter inherits to next difference body (Reincarnation) when we die.

It sounds impossible to separate the York and white without cracking the cell, but we can temporally separate brain and consciousness by some specific religious ritual like meditation, long time fasting and psychoactive drug (LSD or cannabis)

Let me introduce strongly recommend two safety tools I have experienced before.

Isolation tank by John C. Lilly (origin of the movie, Altered States)

https://www.samadhitank.com/

Hemi-Sync by the Monroe Institute (founded by Robert Monroe)

https://www.monroeinstitute.org/

Furthermore, the beginning of our consciousness is introduced in Voyage to curiosity`s further by Bruce Moen.

https://www.bookdepository.com/Voyage-Curiositys-Father-Bruce-Moen/9781571742032

In a nutshell, we all human came to the Earth to seek unconditional love energy, then we will leave from this planet to each home star like Sirius, Pleiades, Vega, Arcturus and Orion after we are sufficiently filled with it.

Footnotes

[1] Administrator, ESOTERIQ Society.

[2] Individual Publication Date: May 22, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/yamauchi-3; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightpublishing.com/insight-issues/.

*High range testing (HRT) should be taken with honest skepticism grounded in the limited empirical development of the field at present, even in spite of honest and sincere efforts. If a higher general intelligence score, then the greater the variability in, and margin of error in, the general intelligence scores because of the greater rarity in the population.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Masaaki Yamauchi on Thoughts About I.Q., Time, Consciousness, and Metaphysics: Administrator, ESOTERIQ Society (3)[Online]. May 2022; 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/yamauchi-3.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, May 22). Conversation with Masaaki Yamauchi on Thoughts About I.Q., Time, Consciousness, and Metaphysics: Administrator, ESOTERIQ Society (3). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/yamauchi-3.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Masaaki Yamauchi on Thoughts About I.Q., Time, Consciousness, and Metaphysics: Administrator, ESOTERIQ Society (3). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A, May. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/yamauchi-3>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Masaaki Yamauchi on Thoughts About I.Q., Time, Consciousness, and Metaphysics: Administrator, ESOTERIQ Society (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/yamauchi-3.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Masaaki Yamauchi on Thoughts About I.Q., Time, Consciousness, and Metaphysics: Administrator, ESOTERIQ Society (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (May 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/yamauchi-3.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Masaaki Yamauchi on Thoughts About I.Q., Time, Consciousness, and Metaphysics: Administrator, ESOTERIQ Society (3)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/yamauchi-3>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Masaaki Yamauchi on Thoughts About I.Q., Time, Consciousness, and Metaphysics: Administrator, ESOTERIQ Society (3)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/yamauchi-3.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Masaaki Yamauchi on Thoughts About I.Q., Time, Consciousness, and Metaphysics: Administrator, ESOTERIQ Society (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): May. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/yamauchi-3>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Masaaki Yamauchi on Thoughts About I.Q., Time, Consciousness, and Metaphysics: Administrator, ESOTERIQ Society (3)[Internet]. (2022, May 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/yamauchi-3.

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Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on Western Europe, Russian Aggression, Putin, Zelensky, China, and India: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (8)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: May 22, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,512

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Tor Arne Jørgensen is a member of 50+ high IQ societies, including World Genius Directory, NOUS High IQ Society, 6N High IQ Society just to name a few. He has several IQ scores above 160+ sd15 among high range tests like Gift/Gene Verbal, Gift/Gene Numerical of Iakovos Koukas and Lexiq of Soulios. Tor Arne was also in 2019, nominated for the World Genius Directory 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe. He is the only Norwegian to ever have achieved this honor. He has also been a contributor to the Genius Journal Logicon, in addition to being the creater of toriqtests.com, where he is the designer of now eleven HR-tests of both verbal/numerical variant. His further interests are related to intelligence, creativity, education developing regarding gifted students. Tor Arne has an bachelor`s degree in history and a degree in Practical education, he works as a teacher within the following subjects: History, Religion, and Social Studies. He discusses: European interpretation of the Russo-Ukrainian war; the major losses and wins for the Western countries in this war; Putin; Zelensky; the massive disagreement with the Russian Federation’s actions from the United Nations General Assembly; other major players on the world stage; China; African states; the post-colonial states with large economies; this conflict on 1 to 10; reactive commentary; nuclear weapons; the Nordic countries; the U.N. condemnation; the “neutral zone”; health; bold moves and a legacy; a bilateral conflict; a war in the economic sphere; cyberwarfare; democratic development; Sino-Russian relations; and any sympathetic statements by Western European leaders.

Keywords: China, India, NATO, Russia, Tor Arne Jørgensen, United Nations, Western Europe, Zelensky.

 Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on Western Europe, Russian Aggression, Putin, Zelensky, China, and India: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (8)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What is the European interpretation of the Russo-Ukrainian war at the moment?

Tor Arne Jørgensen[1],[2]*: The general view that we in Europe have, and with that I mean the Nordic countries bordering Russia in particular, is that with this war and the possibility for aggression that Russia poses against us, especially against Sweden and Finland which are not included as per today into the NATO alliance are viewed as grave to say it mildly.

An imminent accession into NATO for these two Nordic countries will not be an easy decision by the two nations leaders to make, as the border with Russia and an ever-increasing narrowing of the “neutral zone” if one can call it that between NATO alliance and Russia. Thus, it is not an easy decision to make, as this neutral zone and its weathering can accelerate an all-out escalation of the conflict between the West and the East. Russia and the West do not benefit from such a direct neighborhood, a neutral zone must be established so that the war does not become global.

Here in the West and especially Europe, we must hold back, send the proper signals to the United States, not to push more than necessary, by that I mean, purposely to create stability and going forward to perhaps put an end through acts of diplomacy and dissolving warring between Russia and Ukraine. This sums up what we in Europe now hope for in my view.

Jacobsen: What have been the major losses and wins for the Western countries in this war?

Jørgensen: The losses are clear, with the intention of looking at oil and gas, but not nearly as bad as for Russia, as this has so far been a disaster for its economy. Western military victories are probably not something to be viewed, as any territories have not been taken or given over by eastern states. So the losses are seen only in economic terms so far, while the victories are noticed by increased support against dictatorial tyranny, and the advance of democratic values.

Jacobsen: What did Putin underestimate?

Jørgensen: The Ukrainian leadership and the will of the Ukrainian people to resist Russian aggression.

Jacobsen: What did Zelensky underestimate?

Jørgensen: He was probably not aware of the role he was to play during this war, in which the similarities with England’s greatest statesman of all time, Winston Churchill has been made openly. Furthermore, the West’s enormous support as to both humanitarian and military, and as well as an overall global compassion and support from all generations young and old.

Jacobsen: How has the massive disagreement with the Russian Federation’s actions from the United Nations General Assembly changed the international discourse on the war?

Jørgensen: The fact that the Russian Federation has a permanent seat at the Security Council and thus cannot be removed indefinitely by allowing the current government to continue to govern as they please. But the suspension from the UNHRC and the symbolic significance it has is possibly a sign of a shift in the balance of power, or the influential effect that the Russian Federation has in its executive mandate.

Whether this will then be what it takes to create a new or alternative direction through changed attitude towards the United Nations and its Security Council, or whether new guidelines should be considered of what a member state can allowed itself to do in accordance with human rights violations in wartime remains to be seen. That a change in membership conditions should be brought up for debate is clear.

The UN’s reputation as a peacekeeping organization during peacetime or not is being put to the test more now than ever before since the organization first began just after WWII and the foundation from which it was built on. Sees now a change of organizational absolutes as an inevitably necessity, viewed from the current situation regarding the Russian-Ukraine war and the powerlessness in which the United Nations finds itself in the same manner as during the time of the League of Nations.

Jacobsen: What about other major players on the world stage either by economy or population size, or both? How is India taking this wartime issue? 

Jørgensen: India’s economic implications resulting from the war between Russia and Ukraine have their clear effect as to the fall in the global market, prompt from the fall in the stock market, specifically with reference to India’s dependence on oil in various forms, including sunflower oil coming from both countries (Russia-Ukraine). Furthermore, technological implicit in the tech sector, not to forget the pharmaceutical sector.

India can certainly adjust towards a more independent policy line, where a rather marginalized strategy, result to a reducing of outsourcing, may in the long run prove to be beneficial not only for India, but for most countries whereas their independence or promos must be reconsidered as these the type of conflicts as we now see will probably not remain isolated in the future. The protection of one’s natural resources, and upscaling of and for one’s close bilateral relations across close neighbors, can break outstretched and more insecure imports of the most vulnerable of resources.

Jacobsen: What is China doing now in reaction if any?

Jørgensen: It seems to me that China keeps a low profile still and cleverly so, because one must keep in mind that China has here a unique opportunity to observe the West’s and its reaction with reference to the Russia -Ukraine ongoing conflict. How stable and structured is NATO today, where is the community’s trust, and to what extent is NATO’s military might view today. One must not look at today’s NATO in the same manner as to its military capabilities as the former League of Nations and to what it had in its arsenal nor its lack of a tight alliance. NATO is probably stronger today than ever before. But I must admit, that to what extent NATO’s role had to play after the fall of the Iron Curtain back in -89, when the need of such an alliance was no longer so pressing in what seemed to be peacetime and added in the Warsaw Pact’s dissolution during the summer of -91.

But back to China and the role of the Chinese government now, is I think, to sit tight, wait, stay calm, take notes regarding, strategically, materially, economically, and finally the key most important thing, honor, to keep their honor and not lose face, something that Russia has so solemnly now done perhaps irrepealably damage its own role as an historically important powerhouse. This is probably what will be mostly important for China to do now, furthermore, its role ahead in terms of the China -Taiwan controversy and adding NATO’s role in its support of Taiwan and thus resistance from the Chinese government of the probability of an extended formation of a NATO pacific alliance.

Jacobsen: How are African states, e.g., Nigeria, taking this into account in terms of impacts on their economy?

Jørgensen: What cannot be avoided in this context is the importance that Ukraine attaches to the world’s food supply, as Ukraine is the main grain stock for many of us. African northern states feel this even more, as many of these states are daily dependent on the supply of stable and secure grain delivery from Ukraine in particular, the same can be said with regards to food oils which then constitute an increased importance in the supplement in grain / food exported from Ukraine to the world.

For those countries that are completely dependent on the safe supply of grain to feed their compatriots, this is a very unfortunate situation to be in, far worse than many of the western countries that have alternative solutions to consider ensuring stability of a stable grain stock etc.

Jacobsen: What about the post-colonial states with large economies, e.g., the United States of America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and Israel (and South Africa)?

Jørgensen: If one considers the United States, as they are not dependent on Russian oil to the same extent of what Europe is, with Germany as the most dependent state in Europe of Russian oil and gas. Nor when it comes to access to stable business routes to ensure food deliveries to its own population.

The same could be said at least to some extent regarding Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa as well, where one should take certain restrictions in the requirement for stable energy sources regarding fossil fuels, and to a certain extent again in the degree of self-sufficiency of food supply, and the availability of various grains and oils directed towards the food industry. It should probably also be added that Australia’s atomic political foundations, are self-supported through sufficiency by and for one’s own omittance of the import need prompt to the state’s existence, is thereby marked to be define as self-sufficient in accordance with the Australian statutes of sustainability.

Jacobsen: If we scale this conflict on 1 to 10 with 10 being WWI and WWII, and 1 being global peacetime, where does this conflict sit on this spectrum?

Jørgensen: From what you suggested as to what scale to use, I will probably lean towards 3 or 4 out of 10 as of current time, where a upscaled to a clear 4 out of 10 within the next 2 months, for then to be scaled down again to 2 out of 10 within the next 8-12 months.

Jacobsen: There was reactive commentary immediately on social media about WWIII. How much of this is simply hysterics rather than realistic appraisal about the situation in the earlier parts of the war and now?

Jørgensen: A changed state in and around the theme of World War III, is for me not from the state one sees as of today nor what was at the start a realistic picture to form or take in. Why do I say this, probably because Russia’s interests do not, even if Putin and his state may impromptu us to believe, that an end war is a possible comprehend rum? That a long-term planning as it is then described regards to the world media, one quickly sees that his plan (Putin) and his cabinet failed miserably.

For me, when one lays a plan A, then one lays plan B-C-D… In the early stages of the war, the long supply lines regarding the 6km long convoy that was to make Russia and its immense power for the “world to fear,” resulted in a complete ridicule for all of us to watch. After this rather embarrassing mockup by the dreaded Russian war machine, one thinks and sees that this cannot be well planned. If well planned, Russia would have had to be aware of which corner they would paint themselves into when they started their war campaign.

Now Russia is almost looked upon as a global outcast, the Russian leadership is detested completely by a united West. The Russian leader has destroyed the pride of his country and what trace of honor that must be left should now not remain permanently destroyed. A third world war seems to me to be impossible for Russia’s people, internal government, nor for Russia’s allies. Even the participation of Syrian mercenaries will probably not change the outcome of this war, nor will Sweden’s and Finland’s incorporation into NATO’s safe embrace.

Finally, I would like to point out that the West is a greater threat to a third world war with its constant tightening of the net around an ever increasingly pressured Russia, whereby their allies can counteract NATO’s patronage of Russia’s autonomy.

Jacobsen: Would Putin use nuclear weapons? Would NATO nations consider the use of their nuclear weapons if so? In either case, these seem insane, as this is “mutually assured destruction.” 

Jørgensen: We only have this one planet, we all play in the same sandbox, the world has too much to lose. Look at China and all the developments that they are now experiencing, they are one of the world’s strongest economies. They and India will not let Russia end the world in the quest to acquire lost lands. Everyone realizes that the Soviet Union and its heyday are over, and the President of Russia must realize this once and for all.

Jacobsen: Will this grave picture from the Nordic countries create a necessity for wartime participation from most of them on the side of Ukraine? If so, which nation-states?

Jørgensen: If one looks with regards to the application for NATO membership for both Sweden and Finland, thus marking a possible historic Nordic shift, then the Nordic alliance in addition to the alliance with NATO as an extra boost security against Russian aggression. By that said, will then Russia remain a lasting threat for the Nordic countries to deal with, do not think so. Separate we are small and maybe few, but united we are strong and somewhat plentiful.

Finland alone has previously shown the world that they can certainly hold their ground, for example during the Russo-Finnish war back in 1939 -40, where Russia invaded Finland, the Finnish forces not only held their stand, but also manage to push back the invading forces for quite some time. But at the same time, it should be duly pointed out that Russia’s in that sense increased cooperation in every sense with China, as well as North Korea, where Russia’s support in a military sense has been marked in China as well as North Korea’s military with reference buildup after the end of World War II.

One should further keep in mind that the Cold War was never really over, but forever-expanding regards to NATO expansion, the NATO alliance has been eating away more and more of territorially sovereignty on its way towards the Eastern Front, whereby the current tense situation now runs counter to everyone’s astonishment?!

It should also be said that the United States and its status as the world’s only superpower, can no longer be stated as factual.

Iran, Russia, North Korea, and USA, yes, all countries that have nuclear weapons capabilities for use in their arsenal are now to be considered a superpower as their nuclear armaments can reach all targets across the globe. The quintessential question to be asked now is, by what purpose is it to use these weapons, aren’t we all still live in the same sandbox?? If we were to start a third world war, then the outcome would be very possible, as Albert Einstein once said, If, this becomes a reality, that is, World War III, then “the next one will be fought with sticks and stones.” The idea of ​​being bombed back to the Stone Age, where all hope of restoration is to be regarded as utopian wishful thinking, think of a Mars-like scenario, and end of civilization as we know it, the reality hits you.

Jacobsen: Does the U.N. condemnation, overwhelming, of this situation, justify legal ramifications and an investigation into the crimes and human rights violations by Russia against civilians and Ukrainian sovereignty?

Jørgensen: Undoubtedly yes, although one can ask questions of a more investigative position, so yes, here there is no doubt about its legality nor one’s legitimacy.

Jacobsen: How has the “neutral zone” evolved over time?

Jørgensen: The expansion of the “neutral zone” between the West and the East, where a constant invasion, or rather a narrowing of territorial sovereignty based on one’s origins after World War II as it is hereby put forth, regards to the eastern part, and then the expansion of territorial sovereignty in pictorial sense, in a more recent historical perspective indisputably proven with reference to Western NATO alliance due presence.

Jacobsen: Putin is old. Is his health an issue?

Jørgensen: When it comes to age, one would say no, Putin’s age is not a decisive factor in this context.

Jacobsen: Is there a sense, by him, of wanting to make bold moves and a legacy through the invasion? Or is his concern more geostrategic, or both?

Jørgensen: Simply put, to speak of a person who was despairing of the weathering powerlessness that arose in the following days after the Cold War when the Iron Curtain fell. The dissolution of the Soviet Union, a disintegrating nation where total chaos reigned, no one would nor could respond when a desperate Putin asks for advice of his leaders; “what happens now?” A former KGB agent, who has his special field within spreading misinformation promoted for the desire to create fear and control by the few over the many.

A brilliant bureaucrat, where a rapid rise after the end of the Cold War, in which former President Boris Yeltsin at the very beginning of the 21st century, puts Putin as his appointed prime minister and further heir to the presidency at the very beginning of a new millennia. One now sees, at least in some way a clear comparison with the Nazi leader during World War II.

What can be speculated about now is, will we then see a similar demise likes the one we teach our children in schools regarding Hitlers last days in his private bunker or not, will history repeat itself or not once again…?

Jacobsen: What is the process, historically, of other nations being drawn into a wartime scenario, and then a bilateral conflict becoming regional if not global?

Jørgensen: Extensions of alliances, inaugurations of warlords, decisions by and for the incorporation of territorial sovereignty, where a “safe haven” of a supreme guardianship calls out to you. A confident big brother who takes care of the little man, whereby the suppressing duty for little brother is to do everything that big brother says he must do or else, similar to the whim of a madman.

This is a short, but all so true description of the Western alliance, and it does not improve in any way with reference to its eastern counterpart. This is what we (the people) must endure by our wants or not. So yes, the small ones are eaten up by the big ones, the powerful ones rule the impaled ones. Expansions have been made, are now being made, and will in the future be leading for world politics where give and take every day, controls the outcome for peacetime or not …

Jacobsen: Is this primarily a war in the economic sphere at this point?

Jørgensen: The economic implications that we all see and feel in our everyday lives are palpable. What leads in the future can quickly overshadow the financial consequences. As they are the first to emerge, and what is experienced the longest after the actual warfare is over in accordance with clean-up and all the humanitarian work in the aftermath.

Jacobsen: What about the current forms of war found online with digital technology, espionage, hacking, surveillance, and cyberwarfare in general? Have these been much of the conflict?

Jørgensen: Yes, based on Russia’s history of cyber warfare, manipulation, and attempts to gag neighboring states according of their rule of law, democracy, and freedom of speech regarding the general population both abroad and at home. So yes, this is a well-known tactic from the Russian government, historically as well as to current time conflict between Russia and Ukraine.

Jacobsen: How many countries, in varying degrees of democratic development, count as “democratic” globally compared to autocratic? I am aware of a march towards more democratic, secular, and Enlightenment views globally – unsure as to how much, though.

Jørgensen: The democratic index points in the direction of an expanded perspective, with a downward spiral for the autocratic forms of government. If you look at the index today, full democratically governed countries would be around 6.4% and countries with fully autocratic rule would then be around 37% but take these numbers with precaution as they can vary.

Jacobsen: How will, or are, Sino-Russian relations impacting the war? Has the Chinese Communist Party made any formal statements or motions regarding this war?

Jørgensen: The camaraderie between China and Russia is better than it has been for a long time, the border conflict that took place back in spring of -69, has today by no means no remnants of any lasting disputes between these two countries. So no, it does not mean that a consequence of that past tense historical conflict in any regards has been a major factor to calculate into the current wartime conflict between Russia and Ukraine. China and its position now have been all about keeping calm, looking at what is happening by observing the situation in anticipation of its outcome pro-con.

Jacobsen: Have there been any sympathetic statements by Western European leaders towards Putin, as in understanding the aggression against Ukrainian people and the annexation of Ukrainian territory?

Jørgensen: Believes and believes that most Western leaders dissociate themselves from what Putin has now messed up. A clear response in a statement of support for what is happening now, would be met with disgust by a united NATO alliance and a united European population led by the United States. My reply to the initial question is then clearly presented.

Footnotes

[1] Tor Arne Jørgensen is a member of 50+ high IQ societies.

[2] Individual Publication Date: May 22, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/Jørgensen-8; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightpublishing.com/insight-issues/.

*High range testing (HRT) should be taken with honest skepticism grounded in the limited empirical development of the field at present, even in spite of honest and sincere efforts. If a higher general intelligence score, then the greater the variability in, and margin of error in, the general intelligence scores because of the greater rarity in the population.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S.  Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on Western Europe, Russian Aggression, Putin, Zelensky, China, and India: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (8)[Online]. May 2022; 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/Jørgensen-8.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, May 22).  Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on Western Europe, Russian Aggression, Putin, Zelensky, China, and India: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (8). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/Jørgensen-8.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S.  Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on Western Europe, Russian Aggression, Putin, Zelensky, China, and India: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (8). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A, May. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/Jørgensen-8>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “ Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on Western Europe, Russian Aggression, Putin, Zelensky, China, and India: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (8).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/Jørgensen-8.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “ Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on Western Europe, Russian Aggression, Putin, Zelensky, China, and India: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (8).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (May 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/Jørgensen-8.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘ Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on Western Europe, Russian Aggression, Putin, Zelensky, China, and India: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (8)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/Jørgensen-8>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘ Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on Western Europe, Russian Aggression, Putin, Zelensky, China, and India: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (8)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/Jørgensen-8.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “ Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on Western Europe, Russian Aggression, Putin, Zelensky, China, and India: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (8).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): May. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/Jørgensen-8>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S.  Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on Western Europe, Russian Aggression, Putin, Zelensky, China, and India: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (8)[Internet]. (2022, May 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/Jørgensen-8.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links May be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on His Life, Scores, and Views: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (1)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: May 22, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,186

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Tianxi Yu (余天曦) is a Member of CatholIQ, Chinese Genius Directory, EsoterIQ Society, Nano Society, World Genius Directory. He discusses: growing up; family legacy; family background; experience with peers and schoolmates; certifications, qualifications, and trainings; purpose of intelligence tests; high intelligence; geniuses; greatest geniuses; a genius from a profoundly intelligent person; profound intelligence; work experiences and jobs; particular job path; myths; the God concept; science; the tests taken and scores earned; the range of the scores; ethical philosophy; social philosophy; economic philosophy; political philosophy; worldview-encompassing philosophical system; ethical philosophy; meaning in life; various disciplines of family member; a particular area of medicine; digital currency theory; the two SCI papers; Japanese; time spent on each test on average; achieve in life; high creativity; “God” the first in a certain field; religion; Mahir Wu; mainstream intelligence tests; money; a life with meaning; pursue “all areas in different subjects”; medicine; proposed immortality; oxidative stress; anime; Comiket; hardest test; easiest test; imagination; attitudes, personally, about religion; the “beauty of logic”; a meaningful life; focus on meaning; immortality; finiteness of human life; the “spirit immortal”; “spirit immortal” seem convincing; an atheist; alternative tests; exhibits at Comiket; Death Numbers; “Death Numbers”; solved all items on Numerus Classic in one week; the first place; Death Numbers; developing numerical alternative tests; find a meaning in life; some of the kings/bosses; great achievements in the world; particular thinkers or philosophers from the West; particular thinkers or philosophers from the East; American President Trump; CCP Leader Xi Jinping; world leader who impresses; and money.

Keywords: China, intelligence, I.Q., Tianxi Yu.

 Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on His Life, Scores, and Views: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (1)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

*Interview conducted December 23, 2020 to December 31, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: When you were growing up, what were some of the prominent family stories being told over time?

Tianxi Yu (余天曦)[1],[2]*: 1999/10/13. Nothing impressive.

Jacobsen: Have these stories helped provide a sense of an extended self or a sense of the family legacy?

Yu: No, all the experiences happened at the right time and place.

Jacobsen: What was the family background, e.g., geography, culture, language, and religion or lack thereof?

Yu: My family are all intellectuals, and they work in various fields. No other background.

Jacobsen: How was the experience with peers and schoolmates as a child and an adolescent?

Yu: Not very good, bad sometimes.

Jacobsen: What have been some professional certifications, qualifications, and trainings earned by you?

Yu: I don’t even have a college diploma hhh. I am a medical student, and studying electrowetting technology, digital currency theory and economics, biochemistry, physical medicine and so on. After I publish two SCI papers, I intend to study mathematics. I am also studying Japanese and intend to take the JLPT examination next year.

Jacobsen: What is the purpose of intelligence tests to you?

Yu: Having fun! I like to do intelligence tests when I’m resting. It’s relaxing for me. So I only do interesting tests.

Jacobsen: When was high intelligence discovered for you?

Yu: A year and a half ago.

Jacobsen: When you think of the ways in which the geniuses of the past have either been mocked, vilified, and condemned if not killed, or praised, flattered, platformed, and revered, what seems like the reason for the extreme reactions to and treatment of geniuses? Many alive today seem camera shy – many, not all.

Yu: Maybe they didn’t meet other people’s expectations or come to different conclusions. The second situation is the opposite. I don’t dare to tell others that I have high IQ now, because I haven’t made corresponding achievements.

Jacobsen: Who seem like the greatest geniuses in history to you?

Yu: I don’t know.

Jacobsen: What differentiates a genius from a profoundly intelligent person?

Yu: Genius has high creativity, profoundly intelligent person has high understanding.

Jacobsen: Is profound intelligence necessary for genius?

Yu: No.

Jacobsen: What have been some work experiences and jobs held by you?

Yu: What experience can an undergraduate have…Can working in the laboratory be an experience?hhh

Jacobsen: Why pursue this particular job path?

Yu: For postgraduate.

Jacobsen: What are some of the more important aspects of the idea of the gifted and geniuses? Those myths that pervade the cultures of the world. What are those myths? What truths dispel them?

Yu: Gifted. I don’t know much about myths, and I don’t believe in them.

Jacobsen: Any thoughts on the God concept or gods idea and philosophy, theology, and religion?

Yu: “God” for me is the first in a certain field, I am an atheist.

Jacobsen: How much does science play into the worldview for you?

Yu: 100%.

Jacobsen: What have been some of the tests taken and scores earned (with standard deviations) for you?

Yu: Death Numbers, Mahir Wu,28/30,IQ 200 SD15

NISA128, Mahir Wu,121.5/128, IQ191.5 SD15

N-World, Mahir Wu, 48/48, IQ190 SD15

Numerus, Ivan Ivec, 29/30, IQ190 SD15

Jacobsen: What is the range of the scores for you? The scores earned on alternative intelligence tests tend to produce a wide smattering of data points rather than clusters, typically.

Yu: IQ180~200.

Jacobsen: What ethical philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Yu: Ethical philosophy that make me money.

Jacobsen: What social philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Yu: Social philosophy that make me money

Jacobsen: What economic philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Yu: Economic philosophy that make me money.

Jacobsen: What political philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Yu: Political philosophy that make me money.

Jacobsen: What worldview-encompassing philosophical system makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Yu: Well provided.

Jacobsen: What ethical philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Yu: Ethical philosophy that make me money.

Jacobsen: What provides meaning in life for you?

Yu: Living.

Jacobsen: What are some of the various disciplines of family member? Those places of work and/or study. 

Yu: No family disciplines.

Jacobsen: Do you intend to specialize in a particular area of medicine?

Yu: I’m going to try all areas in different subjects.

Jacobsen: What areas of medicine most interest you?

Yu: Immortality.

Jacobsen: Why does digital currency theory interest you?

Yu: It’s the future.

Jacobsen: What will be the research in the two SCI papers? 

Yu: Oxidative stress and digital currency, maybe.

Jacobsen: Why choose to study Japanese? 

Yu: しゅみです, I like watching anime, going to Comiket.

Jacobsen: How much time do you spend on each test on average?

Yu: Depend on the authors and difficulties. Most tests take two or three days, and the most difficult tests may take about one year.

Jacobsen: What do you hope to achieve in life?

Yu: Have enough money.

Jacobsen: What factors make up the “high creativity” required for genius?

Yu: Imagination.

Jacobsen: How is “God” the first in a certain field?

Yu: Far exceed the second place.

Jacobsen: As an atheist, what reasons make the most sense of this?

Yu: Our country is not affected by religion.

Jacobsen: Why focus on Mahir Wu’s tests?

Yu: I think his test is the best in the world. He expressed the beauty of logic to a very high level. I didn’t find this in the tests of other well-known authors.

Jacobsen: Have you taken mainstream intelligence tests? For example, the WAIS, the Stanford-Binet, the RAPM, etc. 

Yu: No, our country doesn’t advocate IQ, so we haven’t tested it in hospital. And the thinking depth of those tests are quite low. They don’t have deep thinking like high-range tests.

Jacobsen: Why care mostly about money regarding ethics, social philosophy, economics, and politics?

Yu: Economic base decides the superstructure.

Jacobsen: How do you intend to live a life with meaning?

Yu: Happiness is the core of a meaningful life.

Jacobsen: Why pursue “all areas in different subjects” rather than specialize?

Yu: Because I haven’t found the area I’m interested in.

Jacobsen: Why “immortality” regarding medicine? 

Yu: Medical technology may make human body immortal

Jacobsen: What are some ways in which proposed immortality can be attained to you?

Yu: I can’t say this casually. As far as I know, many directions about immortality can’t be achieved at present. I understand “immortality” in three ways: the body immortal; do not need the body as a carrier, through physical means to achieve thought immortal; the spirit immortal.

Jacobsen: Why focus on oxidative stress?

Yu: I have no choice, I’m just an undergraduate. It’s not easy to find a tutor. I can only write whatever direction the tutor gives me.

Jacobsen: What anime do you like most?

Yu: 君の名は.

Jacobsen: What is Comiket?

Yu: Japan’s largest animate exhibition, コミケ.

Jacobsen: What was the hardest test taken to date?

Yu: Death Numbers by Mahir Wu, and it’s the best test I think.

Jacobsen: What was the easiest test taken to date?

Yu: Numerus Classic by Ivan Ivec. It took me one week to solve all items.

Jacobsen: Anything else other than “imagination”?

Yu: Yes, but it’s not worth mentioning under the imagination.

Jacobsen: Any attitudes, personally, about religion?

Yu: I agree, but I don’t accept. If I am the worshiped person of religioner, please forget my previous sentence hhh.

Jacobsen: Can you explain more the “beauty of logic”?

Yu: It’s hard to describe. Simply, it is the numbers beauty that reflected in the case of concise and rigorous logic. Take a simple example: 8127, 2187,1827,? (Mahir Wu’s question,got his permission).Many people’s first reaction is shift, but they can not get the correct answer. But through observation, we can find that: 81×27=2187,21×87=1827. From this we can get the answer. First, if you find this logic, you will be very sure of the answer, the logic is very rigorous and concise. Then, isn’t it beautiful that the numbers of product doesn’t change?

Jacobsen: What else is important for a meaningful life?

Yu: I don’t know. I haven’t found the meaning of life now.

Jacobsen: Why focus on meaning, as in a meaningful life?

Yu: I don’t know. It’s too difficult for me.

Jacobsen: What if medical technology fails in this immortality endeavour? Is it wasted time?

Yu: This process is enough for me to enjoy, even if I fail.

Jacobsen: Do you think the finiteness of human life gives it meaning?

Yu:  I’m not the creator. I don’t know the specific answer, but you can think about it: is the life of bacteria meaningful?

Jacobsen: What do you mean by the “spirit immortal”? 

Yu: Be remembered by the world.

Jacobsen: Does this “spirit immortal” seem convincing to you, or not?

Yu: Not.

Jacobsen: Doesn’t an atheist position, typically, mean only the first two options? The body immortality and not needing the body as a carrier. 

Yu: The atheists that I understand is not believe in Christian God or Catholic Jesus, the unexplained God of science. What I mean is to do it in a scientific way. For example, quantum computers can be used to connect neural networks to carry human thoughts.

Jacobsen: Are the alternative tests a way to exercise the mind when it’s “not easy to find a tutor”?

Yu: You can think so.

Jacobsen: What exhibits at Comiket most interest you?

Yu: Buy my favorite painters’ works and my favourite anime’s unique souvenir.

Jacobsen: How long did Mahir Wu take to develop Death Numbers?

Yu: If you mean propaganda, in my impression, he didn’t deliberately do it.

Jacobsen: Why is it called “Death Numbers”?

Yu: Because it’s very difficult.

Jacobsen: What was the response from the high-range testing community when you solved all items on Numerus Classic in one week?

Yu: No much response. Because I didn’t show it off.

Jacobsen: I asked, “Any thoughts on the God concept or gods idea and philosophy, theology, and religion?” You said. “God” for me is the first in a certain field, I am an atheist.” I asked, “How is “God” the first in a certain field?” You said, “Far exceed the second place.” I asked, “As an atheist, what reasons make the most sense of this?” You said, “Our country is not affected by religion.” I asked, “Any attitudes, personally, about religion?” You said, “I agree, but I don’t accept. If I am the worshiped person of religioner, please forget my previous sentence.” Can you expand on the responses and meanings in those responses, please? What ties them together as an atheist?

Yu: I mean atheists don’t believe in virtual gods. I use the concept of God to refer to the first place. Besides “God”, I can also use other expressions to address the first place, such as “king”, “boss” and so on. It’s a tribute to those who have made great achievements in the real world.

Jacobsen: Logic manifested in complex symmetries seems beautiful to me, too. How long did Mahir Wu take to create Death Numbers?

Yu: He said he didn’t remember. NIT is the predecessor of DN, maybe one year?

Jacobsen: When did Mahir Wu begin developing numerical alternative tests?

Yu: He said from 2014, when he was in junior high school. From then on, he began to set tests.

Jacobsen: Do you think that you have to find a meaning in life, fundamentally? Is it necessary?

Yu: Yes, very necessary, otherwise it’s boring.

Jacobsen: Who do you consider some of the kings/bosses? Those who have “made great achievements in the real world.” 

Yu: Chen-Ning Yang, Paul Seymour, etc.

Jacobsen: What great achievements in the world do you consider the greatest?  

Yu: Let the world think I’m the greatest.

Jacobsen: Do any particular thinkers or philosophers from the West influence you?

Yu: When I was a child, I read some people’s books, such as Russell, Freud, Descartes and so on, but later I didn’t read them. After one’s own thoughts are established, the thoughts of others are meaningless.

Jacobsen: Do any particular thinkers or philosophers from the East influence you?  

Yu: No, but I often do it in exams, such as Confucius, Lao-tzu, Zhuangzi and so on.To be honest, I was still interested in them at the beginning, but when I immersed in their tests, they made me disgusted.

Jacobsen: What do you think of American President Trump?

Yu: He is an undercover agent sent by the great People’s Republic of China. He has accomplished the task very well. I hope he will be re elected.doge

Jacobsen: What do you think of CCP Leader Xi Jinping?

Yu: He is a great president and will lead China’s Renaissance.

Jacobsen: What world leader impresses you?

Yu: Abraham Lincoln.

Jacobsen: How do you hope to make a lot of money?

Yu: Investment, stock speculation, writing papers to earn bonus, founding a company and so on, all of which I have been implementing.

Footnotes

[1] Member, CatholIQ; Member, Chinese Genius Directory; Member, EsoterIQ Society; Member, Nano Society; Member, World Genius Directory.

[2] Individual Publication Date: May 22, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/yu-1; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightpublishing.com/insight-issues/.

*High range testing (HRT) should be taken with honest skepticism grounded in the limited empirical development of the field at present, even in spite of honest and sincere efforts. If a higher general intelligence score, then the greater the variability in, and margin of error in, the general intelligence scores because of the greater rarity in the population.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on His Life, Scores, and Views: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (1)[Online]. May 2022; 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/yu-1.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, May 22). Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on His Life, Scores, and Views: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (1). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/yu-1.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on His Life, Scores, and Views: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (1). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A, May. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/yu-1>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on His Life, Scores, and Views: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/yu-1.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on His Life, Scores, and Views: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (May 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/yu-1.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on His Life, Scores, and Views: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (1)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/yu-1>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on His Life, Scores, and Views: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (1)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/yu-1.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on His Life, Scores, and Views: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): May. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/yu-1>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on His Life, Scores, and Views: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (1)[Internet]. (2022, May 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/yu-1.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links May be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/”MayTzu”/”Mayzi”) on “Fragments,” “Yaldabaoth is Dead,” “Don’t Take Your Life Personally. It’s Not About You!”, “Event Horizon,” and “Klein-bottle Clock”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (10)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: May 22, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,477

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Richard May (“May-Tzu”/“MayTzu”/“Mayzi”) is a Member of the Mega Society based on a qualifying score on the Mega Test (before 1995) prior to the compromise of the Mega Test and Co-Editor of Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society. In self-description, May states: “Not even forgotten in the cosmic microwave background (CMB), I’m an Amish yuppie, born near the rarified regions of Laputa, then and often, above suburban Boston. I’ve done occasional consulting and frequent Sisyphean shlepping. Kafka and Munch have been my therapists and allies. Occasionally I’ve strived to descend from the mists to attain the mythic orientation known as having one’s feet upon the Earth. An ailurophile and a cerebrotonic ectomorph, I write for beings which do not, and never will, exist — writings for no one. I’ve been awarded an M.A. degree, mirabile dictu, in the humanities/philosophy, and U.S. patent for a board game of possible interest to extraterrestrials. I’m a member of the Mega Society, the Omega Society and formerly of Mensa. I’m the founder of the Exa Society, the transfinite Aleph-3 Society and of the renowned Laputans Manqué. I’m a biographee in Who’s Who in the Brane World. My interests include the realization of the idea of humans as incomplete beings with the capacity to complete their own evolution by effecting a change in their being and consciousness. In a moment of presence to myself in inner silence, when I see Richard May’s non-being, ‘I’ am. You can meet me if you go to an empty room.” Some other resources include Stains Upon the Silence: something for no oneMcGinnis Genealogy of Crown Point, New York: Hiram Porter McGinnisSwines ListSolipsist SoliloquiesBoard GameLulu blogMemoir of a Non-Irish Non-Jew, and May-Tzu’s posterousHe discusses: “Fragments”; “Yaldabaoth is Dead”; “Don’t Take Your Life Personally. It’s Not About You!”; “Event Horizon”; and “Klein-bottle Clock.”

Keywords: C.G. Jung, G.I. Gurdjieff, God, May-Tzu, Nietzsche, P.D. Ouspensky, Richard May, Rupert Sheldrake, Seth Lloyd.

Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/”MayTzu”/”Mayzi”) on “Fragments,” “Yaldabaoth is Dead,” “Don’t Take Your Life Personally. It’s Not About You!”, “Event Horizon,” and “Klein-bottle Clock”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (10)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Hi! Okay, we’re back-ish. “Fragments” is a complex piece, though brief. In “dances dreams of the dead,” I imagine the dead being nothing, with nothing to dance to or about, and so stillness and emptiness of the ‘howling’ void as the dreams danced about the dead. What are you really getting at there?

Richard May[1],[2]*: ROFL! This little writing epitomizes some of my misunderstandings of G.I. Gurdjieff’s cosmology.

Jacobsen: What is the “devouring moon”?

May: LOL! Gurdjieff said that we were “food for the moon.” Go figure.

Jacobsen: There was an old 20th century science fiction author who tried to speak to a universe with conscious suns and such. I forget the name off the top of my mind. However, the term “star mind” brings this to – ahem – light for me. Is this, in any way, an allusion to this author?

May: no  Read some of Rupert Sheldrake’s works for discussion of possible star minds and galactic minds. Some of Dr. Sheldrake’s material has been banned from TedTalks. He must have a dangerous mind, I suppose.

Jacobsen: Do you know those videos or images of the light from the Sun reflecting less off the Moon as the Moon becomes darker, as the line of light recedes from its surface? The star mind devouring the Orphean strains of the devouring moon with the soul-eyed shadows reminds me of these. The “Endless sun” cycles over billions of years off the surface of the moonscape, the ‘food.’ Throw me a bone because I’m howling at the Moon!

May: The “Endless sun” is a reference to ‘God’ at one of the levels physicality in the cosmos and levels of symbolism. The sun has symbolized God in virtually every culture, as psychologist C.G. Jung has noted. This surreal little writing is based up my misunderstanding of the cosmology of G. I. Gurdjieff. Gurdjieff taught that what he meant literally was taken as an allegory and what he taught as allegory was taken literally. It gets a bit confusing. Some of what he taught is preposterous, e.g., that the moon is going to become another sun. But maybe preposterous was sometimes the point. E.g., “Believe nothing not even yourself.” — G.I. Gurdjieff

Jacobsen: Why title this “Fragments”? 

May: The original title of P. D. Ouspensky’s book In Search for the Miraculous was Fragments of an Unknown Teaching. The publisher preferred the former. Ouspensky, Gurdjieff’s foremost pupil, thought that he did not posses the complete teaching and/or that it was not entirely extant and the teaching was at least to him partially unknown. I repeat, he was Gurdjieff’s foremost pupil.

Jacobsen: “Yaldabaoth is Dead” opens with the line of perpetual unknowability of our ‘inner’ and ‘outer.’ Any statements on the great unknown inner and outer worlds?

May: This little writing is my rendering of the Lord’s Prayer. It begins, perhaps somewhat unconventionally, with Nietzsche’s “God is dead,” using one of the Gnostic names for the God of the Bible, i.e., the Demiurge, a sort of unintelligent, blundering Cosmic Builder.

Jacobsen: Also, “Our Unknown” is not “our unknown,” which seems more accurate. It’s a subtle and important distinction on “Yaldabaoth is Dead.” What is the “Unnameable” set apart from here? (Where is “here,” Scott? I don’t know anymore; I know nothing.)

May: “Our Unknown” is ‘God.’ “The Unnameable” is ‘God’. I think “set apart” is the original meaning of “sacred” in Hebrew.

Jacobsen: “Presence” is, as the others, capitalized, while in the context of “here and now.” The now seems like an interesting one to me. You’re, obviously, a scientifically literate and intelligent person and utilize scientific know-how in the context of poetic statements, where space and time are space-time. “Presence” is “here and now,” in the here-now, ya dig? Are you consciously making these distinctions, or is this more automated based on the rich background in reading about modern physics?

May: Presence is capitalized at the beginning of an almost sentence. I’m not conscious of what is done by me consciously and what unconsciously. I’m rather ignorant of modern physics.

Jacobsen: “As above, so below” is a famous statement, and the “doing” in lower and higher reflects this for me. Do you see a relation between these ideas in “Yaldabaoth is Dead” and the phrase from Hermeticism?

May: Yes, sure, a relationship, but also a rendering of “on Earth as it is in Heaven.”

Jacobsen: What is “transubstantial food”? Is it the insubstantial Catholic form of “transubstantial”?

May: Oh, I don’t know, maybe impressions of something higher than my own illusory-ego identity. I don’t know enough about Catholic dogmas to answer.

Jacobsen: Forgiveness is important. What’s been an important moment of forgiveness in life for you?

May: I forgive you for asking these questions. I forgive entropy and gravitation, for existing. I forgive ‘God’ for sinning against me and my family. I forgive Mother and Father for being f*cked-up human beings, like everyone else. — But can I forgive myself for not forgiving?

Jacobsen: I love the last two lines, quoting you:

And led not into distraction,

but delivered from sleep.

Can you forgive me for being distractible and falling asleep before sending more questions to you, until the next morning, please?

May: Yes, certainly, I can. But you will probably burn in the Hell of the Loving Father for Eternity or at least for the duration of one commercial break.

Jacobsen: “Don’t Take Your Life Personally. It’s Not About You!” has a title almost as long as the content. Bravo! It speaks, to me, to the limits of self-knowledge from recollection, reflections, even contemplative practices. We’re a mystery to ourselves, ultimately. Why does one’s existence preclude publicity of knowledge to oneself and the conveyance of this to others?

May: I first wrote this as irony. What can you take personally, if not your life? Then I realized that it also perfectly embodied certain esoteric ideas; We are food in a cosmic food chain. We may have a purpose in the cosmos that transcends our illusory ego-identity. 

Jacobsen: “Event Horizon” plays with terms referencing past and present, and future, and the references to the past and the future. We hope for the future. Yet, the hopes are placed in the past in it. We have a present, “Now,” and it’s placed “too far in the future.” Time’s an illusion, a persistent one; I have it on good authority. Anyhow, is this your physics seeping into the poetry once more, my friend?

May: MIT physicist Seth Loyd thinks that retro-causality from the future to the present can occur and that the past can be changed, I think. But we are rarely present here and now. Now is an imagined future state, ironically. But there is also sarcasm. As ordinarily conceived, we cannot have hope for the past. So how can we have hope for the present? … So this combines ‘physics’, esotericism, and sarcasm. It’s very straight forward.

But actually Event Horizon is the brand name of a delicious high gravity beer!

Jacobsen: “Klein-bottle Clock” is surrealistic, certainly. How many cups of coffee can you make with these eternity-measuring coffee spoons in a tablespoon, even a teaspoon?

May: This writing was inspired by a certain illustrious member of the higher-IQ community who was among those interviewed by a certain well-known publication. When asked what he was doing, he said among other things that he was building an “inside-out clock.”

Doubtless because I have a warped, non-Euclidean mind, this struck me as ridiculous. So as not to be outdone I wrote “Klein-bottle Clock.” The outside of such a clock would be identical with its inside!

Jacobsen: You quote Arthur Schopenhauer in relation to time as one’s life-time and eternity as one’s immortality, which presumes an embedded identity in eternity living out ‘simultaneously’ in the time of one’s life. So, how many coffee cups can you get from this?

May: Not even one at Starbucks.

Jacobsen: How is identity embedded in eternality and terminality?

May: Beats me! Ordinary psychology explains at least to a degree the the origin of our illusory egoic identities. The psychology of Buddhist philosophy and that of G.I. Gurdjieff also deal with this. I doubt that what we regard as our identity is preserved eternally.

Jacobsen: What kind of infinity is eternity?

May: No kind. Eternity is not an infinity, it is not infinite time. Eternity is the condition of being outside of time, e.g., the present moment.

Jacobsen: What kind of finite is a lifetime?

May: The Buddha compare a human lifetime to the duration of a flash of lightening.

Jacobsen: Have you had any difficulties measuring out a mornings cup o’ joe in a lifetime measurement using an eternal coffee spoon? Or is the embedment making it easy to just, you know, reduce the quantification of the grounds in the eternal coffee spoon? 

May: Sorry, I don’t understand the question.

Footnotes

[1] Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society.”

[2] Individual Publication Date: May 22, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/may-10; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

*High range testing (HRT) should be taken with honest skepticism grounded in the limited empirical development of the field at present, even in spite of honest and sincere efforts. If a higher general intelligence score, then the greater the variability in, and margin of error in, the general intelligence scores because of the greater rarity in the population.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S.  Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/”MayTzu”/”Mayzi”) on “Fragments,” “Yaldabaoth is Dead,” “Don’t Take Your Life Personally. It’s Not About You!”, “Event Horizon,” and “Klein-bottle Clock”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (10)[Online]. May 2022; 29(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/may-10.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, May 22).  Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/”MayTzu”/”Mayzi”) on “Fragments,” “Yaldabaoth is Dead,” “Don’t Take Your Life Personally. It’s Not About You!”, “Event Horizon,” and “Klein-bottle Clock”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (10). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/may-10.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S.  Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/”MayTzu”/”Mayzi”) on “Fragments,” “Yaldabaoth is Dead,” “Don’t Take Your Life Personally. It’s Not About You!”, “Event Horizon,” and “Klein-bottle Clock”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (10). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 29.A, May. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/may-10>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “ Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/”MayTzu”/”Mayzi”) on “Fragments,” “Yaldabaoth is Dead,” “Don’t Take Your Life Personally. It’s Not About You!”, “Event Horizon,” and “Klein-bottle Clock”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (10).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 29.A. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/may-10.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “ Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/”MayTzu”/”Mayzi”) on “Fragments,” “Yaldabaoth is Dead,” “Don’t Take Your Life Personally. It’s Not About You!”, “Event Horizon,” and “Klein-bottle Clock”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (10).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 29.A (May 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/may-10.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘ Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/”MayTzu”/”Mayzi”) on “Fragments,” “Yaldabaoth is Dead,” “Don’t Take Your Life Personally. It’s Not About You!”, “Event Horizon,” and “Klein-bottle Clock”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (10)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 29.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/may-10>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘ Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/”MayTzu”/”Mayzi”) on “Fragments,” “Yaldabaoth is Dead,” “Don’t Take Your Life Personally. It’s Not About You!”, “Event Horizon,” and “Klein-bottle Clock”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (10)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 29.A., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/may-10.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “ Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/”MayTzu”/”Mayzi”) on “Fragments,” “Yaldabaoth is Dead,” “Don’t Take Your Life Personally. It’s Not About You!”, “Event Horizon,” and “Klein-bottle Clock”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (10).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 29.A (2022): May. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/may-10>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S.  Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/”MayTzu”/”Mayzi”) on “Fragments,” “Yaldabaoth is Dead,” “Don’t Take Your Life Personally. It’s Not About You!”, “Event Horizon,” and “Klein-bottle Clock”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (10)[Internet]. (2022, May 29(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/may-10.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–2022. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

Debunking I.Q. Claims Discussion with Chris Cole, Richard May, and Rick Rosner: Member, Mega Society; Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society”; Member, Mega Society (3)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.D, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: May 15, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,464

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Chris Cole is a longstanding member of the Mega Society. Richard May is a longstanding member of the Mega Society and Co-Editor of Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society. Rick Rosner is a longstanding member of the Mega Society and a former editor of Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society. They discuss: fraudulent activity; messianic posing; criminal behaviour; the three interpenetrating cubes problem; above 4 standard deviations above the norm; the hardest IQ test; and IQ.

Keywords: Chris Cole, IQ, Richard May, Richard Rosner, Mega Society, Mega Test, Titan Test.

Debunking I.Q. Claims Discussion with Chris Cole, Richard May, and Rick Rosner: Member, Mega Society; Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society”; Member, Mega Society (3)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

*Rosner section transcribed from audio.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What would you define as fraudulent activity in a high-IQ community or an individual?

Rick Rosner[1]*: Making claims that you know aren’t supported by your performance on tests.

Chris Cole[2]*: Fraud takes many forms just as it does in common law. Because of the Internet, tests with fixed questions are particularly vulnerable to cheating.

Richard May[3],[4]*: I have nothing to add.

Jacobsen: What would you define as messianic posing in a similar regard?

Rosner: If you end up with a cult, that’s messianic posing.

Cole: The common language definition of messianic behavior will serve. 

May: I have nothing to add.

Jacobsen: Similarly, what about criminal behaviour?

Rosner: If you end up in jail for the rest of your life, if the FBI has a thick dossier on you because you are considered a potential threat in certain ways, that’s criminal behaviour. The FBI has dossiers on lots of people because, historically, the FBI has done good things and asshole things.

So, if they have a dossier on you, because you’re a legitimate psycho who has the potential to do bodily harm to people for some weird political reason, then there you go.

Cole: Again I have nothing to add here to the common language definition of criminal behavior. 

May: I have nothing to add.

Jacobsen: On the Mega Test, why was the three interpenetrating cubes problem seen as the most difficult?

Rosner: It is widely agreed that the three interpenetrating cubes problem was the hardest problem on the test. So, the problem that is agreed upon as likely being the correct answer has not, as far as I know, been proven to be the correct answer.

Interestingly, you can look it up. It depends on what shit is online. But at various times since the ‘90s, it has been agreed upon that the correct answer is floating out there. But you can’t be sure that you’ve found the consensus correct answer.

But the figure, the geometric figure, that corresponds to the consensus correct answer can be found in popular culture, but I won’t tell you where.

Cole: It’s the only problem on the test where the answer that Ron accepts has not been proven. There are a few of these on the Titan.

May: It was the certainly most difficult, but my spatial ability is not sufficiently high to understand why this is so.

Jacobsen: Above 4 standard deviations above the norm, why should there be more scrutiny more than any other cutoff?

Rosner: Isn’t there some claim that “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”? You could argue that because claiming to have one of the world’s highest IQs gets you more than claiming to have a 120 IQ.

In practical terms, not so often, it can get you on a quiz show. It can get you on the cover of Esquire magazine. It can get you interviewed. It can get you on TV. It kind of got me laid once. I was going to get laid anyway. But it was part of that package that got me laid, I guess.

Cole: A credible high range score requires credible high range test questions, which are hard to formulate and norm.

May: I have nothing to add.

Jacobsen: What was the hardest IQ test you’ve ever taken in the high-range? What lesson can be learned for test-makers from this?

Rosner: I say that I’ve had a lot of success, but I’d say that I’ve had the most difficulty with Cooijmans’ tests. Because he brings in stuff from a lot of areas. I don’t want to say too much about his tests because he doesn’t want people talking about his tests and helping other people.

But by the time the Mega Test had been published in Omni, it had been through a number of revisions with hinky problems getting knocked out or revised until they were clear and bullet-proof. The answers were tight. I think Cooijmans talks about the pleasure of when an answer clicks into place. That click of satisfaction of when you know you found the answer.

I would say that on some of Cooijmans’ problems. The click is, maybe, not as loud as on some Hoeflin problems. On Cooijmans’ problems, you can find some really good answers that aren’t as good as the intended answer. That’s, maybe, the mark of one type of really good ultra-high-IQ test.

That there are stopping points. On multiple choice tests, those are called distractors. There are answers among the choices that seem right for various reasons if you’re taking desperate stabs at an answer.

On high-IQ tests, you can come up with answers that make a lot of sense. But do they make as much sense as the intended answer? No. But you’ve fallen for an inferior answer. On tough tests, a lot of problems on hard tests are finding the signal among the noise.

I’m writing a book in which somebody or the recipient of what he thinks is a coded message, thinks that it is a true message because it is based on the first letters of four consecutive sentences. That spell out a word.

The odds that this would happen by chance are 26 to the 6th power, which is 676 squared, which is 400,000 to 1. Then you have to knock that down because there are a zillion four-letter words. So, anyway, the odds are tens of thousands to one that it’s not a coded message, especially since it is specific to the character situation.

So, the character reasons that it is likely a true signal. And on a tough IQ problem, you’d like the numerical coincidences to have an unlikelihood of, at least, 1 in a 1,000. When you look at a number sequence, you see a pattern. Then you say, “What are the odds that this pattern would arise by chance?”

On some super-hard IQ problems, there are more than one pattern to be found. Again, you have to ask yourself, “Was this intentional or accidental?” A tough-ass IQ problem really pushes the limit in finding the signal among the noise.

Cole: The only high range test I took was the Mega. 

May: The Mega Test and the L.A.I.T. are the only high range tests I’ve ever taken.
I did not distinguish myself on the latter.

Jacobsen: Is IQ declining in importance now?

Rosner: IQ as IQ is declining in importance because it is a product of the middle of the 20th century when people really believed in it and used it to skip kids a grade, or not, to put them in gifted classes, get admission to magnet schools.

At some point, probably in the ‘50s, you might be able to get laid by your IQ. Since debunked, it has a greasy feeling about it, weirdo, creepazoid. The Cal. State schools, today, decided to get rid of the ACT and SAT altogether and the SAT is an IQ surrogate.

They decided it is not helpful, not worth the shit people go through to prepare for the tests. We can see enough about a student without some IQ surrogate in their admission packet. I’d say intelligence is increasing in importance because we are tiptoeing up to artificial intelligence.

That when we talk about AI – and AI is a misnomer right now; AI means “machine learning.” Eventually, AI will mean “Artificial Intelligence.” We will need ways to mathematicize and to come up with metrics of the power of thought in brains and in other stuff.

So, old school IQ declining; new school AI shit increasing.

Cole: IQ seems to be about as important now as it was when I was young. The SAT has some problems because it has become easy to improve a score via tutoring, but that is being addressed.

May: There is a theoretical possibility that Nature, specifically natural selection might not be entirely “politically correct.” Theoretically there could be differences among human groups that evolved under different conditions. E.g., If only females could bear children, then males would be the expendable ‘gender’. A small number of healthy males could impregnate a large number of females and the group would survive. A large number of males, if males did not bear children, and a small number of females would not allow the group to survive. Hence, there could be more variability among males, including cognitive variability, because males would be more expendable, than among females, i.e., there would be more male ‘geniuses’ and more male idiots.

Fortunately we now realize that there are no biological differences between males and females. Gender is a purely social construct. We now realize that men can menstruate and have babies too, if given a chance. The only important differences are among large numbers of pronouns, all referring to identical nouns.

Footnotes

[1] According to some semi-reputable sources gathered in a listing hereRick G. Rosner may have among America’s, North America’s, and the world’s highest measured IQs at or above 190 (S.D. 15)/196 (S.D. 16) based on several high range test performances created by Christopher HardingJason BettsPaul Cooijmans, and Ronald Hoeflin. He earned 12 years of college credit in less than a year and graduated with the equivalent of 8 majors. He has received 8 Writers Guild Awards and Emmy nominations, and was titled 2013 North American Genius of the Year by The World Genius Directory with the main “Genius” listing here.

He has written for Remote ControlCrank YankersThe Man ShowThe EmmysThe Grammys, and Jimmy Kimmel Live!. He worked as a bouncer, a nude art model, a roller-skating waiter, and a stripper. In a television commercialDomino’s Pizza named him the “World’s Smartest Man.” The commercial was taken off the air after Subway sandwiches issued a cease-and-desist. He was named “Best Bouncer” in the Denver Area, Colorado, by Westwood Magazine.

Rosner spent much of the late Disco Era as an undercover high school student. In addition, he spent 25 years as a bar bouncer and American fake ID-catcher, and 25+ years as a stripper, and nearly 30 years as a writer for more than 2,500 hours of network television. Errol Morris featured Rosner in the interview series entitled First Person, where some of this history was covered by Morris. He came in second, or lost, on Jeopardy!, sued Who Wants to Be a Millionaire? over a flawed question and lost the lawsuit. He won one game and lost one game on Are You Smarter Than a Drunk Person? (He was drunk). Finally, he spent 37+ years working on a time-invariant variation of the Big Bang Theory.

Currently, Rosner sits tweeting in a bathrobe (winter) or a towel (summer). He lives in Los AngelesCalifornia with his wife, dog, and goldfish. He and his wife have a daughter. You can send him money or questions at LanceVersusRick@Gmail.Com, or a direct message via Twitter, or find him on LinkedIn, or see him on YouTube.

[2] Chris Cole is a longstanding member of the Mega Society.

[3] Richard May (“May-Tzu”/“MayTzu”/“Mayzi”) is a Member of the Mega Society based on a qualifying score on the Mega Test (before 1995) prior to the compromise of the Mega Test and Co-Editor of Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society. In self-description, May states: “Not even forgotten in the cosmic microwave background (CMB), I’m an Amish yuppie, born near the rarified regions of Laputa, then and often, above suburban Boston. I’ve done occasional consulting and frequent Sisyphean shlepping. Kafka and Munch have been my therapists and allies. Occasionally I’ve strived to descend from the mists to attain the mythic orientation known as having one’s feet upon the Earth. An ailurophile and a cerebrotonic ectomorph, I write for beings which do not, and never will, exist — writings for no one. I’ve been awarded an M.A. degree, mirabile dictu, in the humanities/philosophy, and U.S. patent for a board game of possible interest to extraterrestrials. I’m a member of the Mega Society, the Omega Society and formerly of Mensa. I’m the founder of the Exa Society, the transfinite Aleph-3 Society and of the renowned Laputans Manqué. I’m a biographee in Who’s Who in the Brane World. My interests include the realization of the idea of humans as incomplete beings with the capacity to complete their own evolution by effecting a change in their being and consciousness. In a moment of presence to myself in inner silence, when I see Richard May’s non-being, ‘I’ am. You can meet me if you go to an empty room.” Some other resources include Stains Upon the Silence: something for no oneMcGinnis Genealogy of Crown Point, New York: Hiram Porter McGinnisSwines ListSolipsist SoliloquiesBoard GameLulu blogMemoir of a Non-Irish Non-Jew, and May-Tzu’s posterous.

[4] Individual Publication Date: May 15, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/debunking-3; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

*High range testing (HRT) should be taken with honest skepticism grounded in the limited empirical development of the field at present, even in spite of honest and sincere efforts. If a higher general intelligence score, then the greater the variability in, and margin of error in, the general intelligence scores because of the greater rarity in the population.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S.  Debunking I.Q. Claims Discussion with Chris Cole, Richard May, and Rick Rosner: Member, Mega Society; Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society”; Member, Mega Society (3)[Online]. May 2022; 30(D). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/debunking-3.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, May 15).  Debunking I.Q. Claims Discussion with Chris Cole, Richard May, and Rick Rosner: Member, Mega Society; Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society”; Member, Mega Society (3). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/debunking-3.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S.  Debunking I.Q. Claims Discussion with Chris Cole, Richard May, and Rick Rosner: Member, Mega Society; Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society”; Member, Mega Society (3). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.D, May. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/debunking-3>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “ Debunking I.Q. Claims Discussion with Chris Cole, Richard May, and Rick Rosner: Member, Mega Society; Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society”; Member, Mega Society (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.D. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/debunking-3.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “ Debunking I.Q. Claims Discussion with Chris Cole, Richard May, and Rick Rosner: Member, Mega Society; Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society”; Member, Mega Society (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.D (May 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/debunking-3.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘ Debunking I.Q. Claims Discussion with Chris Cole, Richard May, and Rick Rosner: Member, Mega Society; Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society”; Member, Mega Society (3)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.D. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/debunking-3>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘ Debunking I.Q. Claims Discussion with Chris Cole, Richard May, and Rick Rosner: Member, Mega Society; Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society”; Member, Mega Society (3)’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.D., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/debunking-3.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “ Debunking I.Q. Claims Discussion with Chris Cole, Richard May, and Rick Rosner: Member, Mega Society; Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society”; Member, Mega Society (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.D (2022): May. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/debunking-3>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S.  Debunking I.Q. Claims Discussion with Chris Cole, Richard May, and Rick Rosner: Member, Mega Society; Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society”; Member, Mega Society (3)[Internet]. (2022, May 30(D). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/debunking-3.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

The American Medical System and Physicians 2: Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI on the Poor Working Conditions for American Physicians

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.E, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: May 15, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,056

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI is an Ivy League academic physician and scientist at the University of Pennsylvania. He is a member of the Mega Society, the OlympIQ Society and past member of the Prometheus Society. He is the designer of the cryptic Mega Society logo. He is member of several scientific societies and a Fellow of the American College of Radiology and of the American Heart Association. He is the co-Founder of the Arrhythmia Imaging Research (AIR) lab at Penn. His research is funded by the National Institute of Health. He is an international leader in three different fields: cardiovascular imaging, artificial intelligence and cybersecurity. He discusses: the poor working treatment of physicians in the United States; exposing the treatment of physicians; the biggest inroads in sheer viewership or consumption; productions; other proposals at every medical center hypothesized to help with the issue of overwork; the simple and obvious solution; working 36 hours in one period; working 90-100 hours in a week; the social life of the physicians; cruelty; patients kill their physicians; the level of burn out; some of the more egregious examples of (mis-)treatment of physicians; deceased or now-disabled colleagues; human rights violations; International Labour Organization; common statements from physicians; humane working conditions; and the future of the American healthcare system.

Keywords: American, Benoit Desjardins, death, Medicine, physicians, science, United States, working conditions.

The American Medical System and Physicians 2: Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI on the Poor Working Conditions for American Physicians

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

*This interview represents Dr. Desjardins’ opinion, combined to the current content of the published medical literature, and not necessarily the opinion of his employers.*

On the work conditions of U.S. physicians

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What was the earliest known, to you, exposure to the poor working treatment of physicians in the United States?

Dr. Benoit Desjardins[1],[2]*: I realized it as soon as I started my training in the U.S. when I was forced to work 68h without sleep. I had been on call at the hospital two nights in a row, had worked 58 consecutive hours without rest, and was driving back home. As I crashed into my bed, I received a phone call from my chief resident asking me why I was not at the hospital as I was on call again for a third night in a row. I was unaware of it and explained the situation. He ordered me to get back to work. I drove back exhausted to the hospital and could have easily been killed in a car accident. I worked ten additional consecutive hours until I crashed on the call room floor. They found me unconscious later that morning. It was my first exposure to the poor working conditions of U.S. physicians.

Jacobsen: Who have been the most vocal people about exposing the treatment of physicians from 50 years ago to 10 years ago?

Desjardins: In the U.S., it was common for post-MD medical trainees (called “residents”) to work 90-100 hours per week and up to 36 hours without rest. In March 1984, 18-yo Libby Zion died at a New York hospital from a prescription error by a resident doing a 36h shift. It led to an investigation on the effect of resident fatigue on patient safety. New regulations were passed in 1987 limiting residents in New York to work no more than 80h per week and no more than 24 consecutive hours. In 2003, the ACGME (the body regulating medical training in the U.S.) extended the rule to all residents. They also limited resident calls to once every third night and implemented one day off per week. For comparison, in Europe, residents cannot work more than 48h per week. Note that these new rules only apply to residents in training, not to the U.S. practicing physicians who regularly work up to 120h per week and up to 72 consecutive hours without sleep.

Jacobsen: Of various productions about the issue, what ones seem to have made the biggest inroads in sheer viewership or consumption?

Desjardins: Around ten years ago, some physicians started to expose the poor working conditions of U.S. physicians. Dr. Pamela Wible noticed an epidemic of suicide among physicians, and she began accumulating data. So far, she has documented 1620 suicides of physicians caused by their poor working conditions, a clear underestimate of the true incidence of the problem. She publicized her results in a TED talk (“Why doctors kill themselves,” March 23, 2016), maintains a blog, and wrote books on the poor treatment of U.S. physicians. Since then, many articles, blogs, books, medical conferences, and documentary movies have covered the poor treatment of U.S. physicians. As a result of these initiatives, physician wellness is now a topic addressed by every U.S. hospital and medical school.

Jacobsen: There will be variations on a theme with the presentation of the same legitimate complaint of overwork and poor working conditions for U.S. physicians. However, some will ‘get’ it more. In that, they’ll hit the message and the reality, correctly. Which productions have been the most incisive and factually accurate?

Desjardins: On April 8, 2019, the New York Times published the op-ed article “The Business of Health Care Depends on Exploiting Doctors and Nurses” by Dr. Danielle Ofri. The op-ed discussed how the U.S. exploits healthcare workers with poor working conditions that would be unacceptable in other fields and countries. In June 2019, Dr. Pamela Wible wrote a book entitled “Human Rights Violations in Medicine,” tabulating and illustrating with real examples 40 different ways in which the U.S. violates the fundamental human rights of its physicians. It includes sleep deprivation, food deprivation, water deprivation, overwork, exploitation, bullying, punishment when sick, violence, no mental health care, etc. In 2018, Robyn Symon produced a documentary movie on physician suicide and poor working conditions entitled “Do no harm” (donoharmfilm.com). It is available for rent on Amazon and Vimeo. In 2004, Dr. Kevin Pho created a blog (KevinMD.com) on physician issues. Several recent articles and interviews on his blog have focused on the poor working conditions of U.S. physicians.

Jacobsen: What are other proposals at every medical center hypothesized to help with the issue of overwork akin to yoga mats?

Desjardins: The U.S. lacks interest in identifying and solving real problems. It goes well beyond healthcare and applies to poverty, violence, corruption, gun control, climate change, etc. Band-Aid solutions are proposed, and the root causes of problems are rarely addressed. Physician working conditions are treated similarly. Every hospital and medical school is now addressing physician wellness, given the massive levels of physician burnout. They discuss yoga mats, meditation, eating healthy, exercising, and sleeping well. But they don’t address 120h work weeks, 72 consecutive hours call shifts without rest and lack of access to food and water, physicians dying on the job, getting strokes on the job, destroying their health.

Jacobsen: Have any tried the simple and obvious solution by taking issue with the prefix “over-” in “overwork” to deal with overwork of physicians? 

Desjardins: No. There is a lack of interest in identifying the real problems and offering needed solutions. There is only one solution to the overwork of U.S. physicians: getting more physicians (or physician equivalent healthcare workers). The U.S. has 2.6 physicians per 1000 people (WorldBank data). The European Union has 4.9, ranging from 3.7 in the Netherlands to 8.0 in Italy, with much healthier populations. Despite the smaller number of physicians in the U.S., the country has the highest healthcare costs globally: $11K per capita in the U.S., compared to $5K per capita in the European Union. If the U.S. increased its population of physicians, the costs would rise since U.S. medicine is a business with unlimited spending. Hospitals have started to explore substituting physicians with less qualified healthcare workers to decrease costs. The frightening consequences of this approach have been well documented in the 2020 book by Dr. Al-Agba and Dr. Bernard, “Patients at Risk: The Rise of the Nurse Practitioner and Physician Assistant in Healthcare.” The book provides examples of poorly trained N.P.s and P.A.s, allowed to perform physician-level decisions and actions, resulting in preventable patient deaths.

Jacobsen: If working 36 hours in one period, what are the impacts, known in medicine and psychology, on the human brain?

Desjardins: Lack of sleep for 24h is, according to the CDC, equivalent to having a blood alcohol content of 0.10, higher than the legal driving limit of 0.08. Among the many side effects, it creates drowsiness, impaired judgment, impaired memory, reduced coordination, increased stress level, and the brain shutting down neurons in some regions. Lack of sleep for 48h affects cognition. The brain enters brief periods of complete unconsciousness known as microsleep, lasting several seconds. Lack of sleep for 72h will have more profound effects on mood and cognition and can lead to paranoia. Chronic sleep deprivation has a lasting impact on general health and creates high blood pressure, obesity, diabetes, heart disease, and depression.

Jacobsen: If working 90-100 hours in one week, what are the impacts, known in medicine and psychology, on the human body?

Desjardins: In a 2021 study by WHO and ILO, long working hours (> 55h/week) led to 398 000 deaths from stroke (35% risk increase) and 347 000 deaths from ischemic heart disease (17% risk increase). Dr. Maria Neira from WHO stated that “Working 55 hours or more per week is a serious health hazard“. Now imagine how much worst of a hazard for physicians forced to work more than 55 consecutive hours without rest. I cannot find any studies specifically looking at the health effects of 90-100 hours workweeks. Japan has the term “karoshi” to describe death by overwork, and employers are held criminally responsible for such deaths. No such laws exist in the U.S.

Jacobsen: Obviously, when everyone is stressed out and overworked in, sometimes, life-and-death circumstances, it is difficult to make an argument for consistent civility and reasonable social engagement. How do these working conditions – and work expectations – impact the social life of the physicians amongst one another, and the physician-to-patient interaction?

Desjardins: Overwork increases the divorce rate in female physicians, not in male physicians. Many physicians do not have much social life since they work constantly. They mainly interact with other physicians at work, not outside work. Sometimes burned-out overworked physicians have been rude to their patients, especially surgeons.

Jacobsen: Something easily wading beneath the surface here: Cruelty. People aren’t going to behave nicely, sometimes, in high-stress environments, where their life and livelihood are under question, including the health care worker. Although, it’s asymmetrical on oath alone.

Physicians take the Hippocratic Oath; the general public’s patients don’t. Also, a larger aspect is institutions. How were physician friends killed in the midst of maltreatment due to working conditions in medical institutions? How have physician friends been permanently disabled due to the work conditions?

Desjardins: Thousands of U.S. physicians have been killed or disabled because of poor working conditions. It has been extensively described in the literature. In my circle of colleagues, which extends beyond my current institution, three of my close radiology colleagues have been killed, all in their 30s, and many have been disabled for life. One was killed at work under circumstances that are still hidden. Two were killed in car accidents after driving back home in the middle of the night after their workday, completely exhausted. A colleague developed a stroke during his workday resulting in a permanent physical handicap. Another colleague was on his 97th hour of work on a week in which he was not allowed to sleep much or eat much. His body failed under these poor working conditions, and he became blind during work. He was rushed to the E.R., where they diagnosed a work-condition induced hypertensive urgency with bilateral optic nerve damage. They pumped him full of medication until part of his vision returned. But he remains physically disabled for life due to the poor working conditions.

Jacobsen: How many patients kill their physicians every year in the United States? How does this compare to other countries with metrics if any?

Desjardins: There are, unfortunately, no statistics on that. In my city, physicians are frequently assaulted by their patients. Some have been stabbed in the face, and some have been killed. The local news media almost always downplay it. Physicians are killed in other countries, too, notably in China. Physician suicides from the poor U.S. working conditions are also downplayed. When a physician jumps from the roof of their hospital, the local authorities simply throw a tarp over the body and don’t report it in the news media. Hospitals simply do not want the bad publicity from having a series of physicians jumping to their death from the roof of their hospital due to poor working conditions, like what recently happened in some N.Y. hospitals.

Jacobsen: What is the level of burn out in your field? What is the formal definition of “burn out” – whatever terms people want to use to describe physicians simply being taxed beyond reasonable limits and – not even requested – demanded to work more, as in your case?

Desjardins: The current level of burnout in my field is up to 70%. There has been a debate on whether physicians experience burnout, moral injury, or basic human rights violations. Burnout means physical and mental collapse from overwork. Moral injury indicates damage to one’s conscience when witnessing horrible conditions violating one’s moral beliefs or code of conduct. In 1948 the U.N. General Assembly adopted a Universal Declaration of Human Rights, a standard for properly treating human beings. Human rights violations are violations of the rules in this declaration. Physicians experience all three categories of injuries: burnout, moral injury, and human rights violations. It is a symptom of a toxic healthcare system, with working conditions massively out of compliance with safe labor laws from all other industries.

Jacobsen: What are some of the more egregious examples of (mis-)treatment of physicians?

Desjardins: There are many examples in the literature. Some U.S. physicians are forced to work up to 72 consecutive hours without rest. In my circle of colleagues, which extends well beyond my current institution, many of my colleagues experienced mistreatment. A physician friend recently started a new job in breast imaging. At the end of her first workday, which included a half-day orientation, they put her on probation for not reading her daily quota of 100 studies. At the end of her second workday, she became more proficient with her new work tools and read 98 studies, two studies short of her daily quota. They fired her immediately. Another physician friend was starting a new radiology job and went to lunch at the hospital cafeteria on her first day. She was forcibly dragged back to her work cubicle before eating a single bite, yelled at by administrators, and told physicians in her practice are not allowed to eat during the workday. Many physicians are required to work non-stop with no breaks for eating and no bathroom breaks and finish their regular workday in the middle of the night. They sometimes must sleep on the floor of their office at the hospital as there is not enough time to return home before their next shift. Dr. Pamela Wible identified several extreme examples of mistreatment: physicians being forced to work during a miscarriage or a seizure, surgeons collapsing on their patients because of dehydration and hypoglycemia because of their lack of access to food and water during work, and physicians falling asleep on their patient during medical rounds due to massive exhaustion.

Jacobsen: When speaking of your deceased or now-disabled colleagues, what happens to a body as parts of it simply shut down, especially in, basically, peak health years, e.g., the 30s?

Desjardins: For deceased colleagues, their body gets cremated or eaten by worms. For disabled colleagues, their health remains affected by the damage to their bodies for the remaining of their lives and deteriorates faster as they get older. They develop chronic diseases, such as high blood pressure, sooner than other workers, making their bodies deteriorate faster and increasing morbidity and mortality.

Jacobsen: For the UDHR, what human rights violations are discussed the most in the literature?

Desjardins: I would say violations of Article 23 (Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favorable conditions of work), Article 24 (Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours), and Article 25 (Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food).

Jacobsen: Is the International Labour Organization, in any way, involved in rectifying these working conditions? Are there any countries anywhere with comparable working conditions, though, perhaps, lacking the advanced expertise and technological sophistication of the U.S.?

Desjardins: Among the risks for physicians identified by the ILO is “Physical and mental fatigue stemming from the specific conditions of this work” and “Danger of being violently attacked by unsatisfied patients.” So, the ILO has identified some of the risks and has proposed some solutions (Improving employment and working conditions in health services, 2017). In that paper, they discuss the European Union 2003 Working Time Directive, setting work limits to 48h per week, minimum daily rest periods of 11h, weekly rest of 35h, and allowing derogations for some doctors. They do not discuss the working conditions of U.S. physicians. Every country has different working conditions for physicians. India, China, and African Countries have difficult working conditions, given limited access to medical technology and the low physician to population ratios. But among the most industrialized countries (G-20), the U.S. and China have the worst working conditions for physicians.

Jacobsen: What are common statements from physicians about the working conditions? The emotional and psychological states rather than the facts and figures of the situation from colleagues who have survived, and continue survive, the insufferable work environment expectations.

Desjardins: The physician workforce has undergone a progressive zombification as it evolved within the current system. Physicians develop learned powerlessness to affect the system and deference to authority. They understand that working 72 consecutive hours without sleep is illegal and inhumane in every other profession except their own but are forced to do it by their hospital administration. They know that they will continue to become victims of crimes committed by corrupt prosecutors. They understand that the U.S. population is strongly anti-physicians and anti-science and will never be their ally. They know that the U.S. healthcare system is collapsing faster than anyone predicted. So, they bear the insufferable work environment and count the days until they can afford to abandon their medical careers or die on the job.

Jacobsen: Have American physicians simply left states to other states, even to other countries for humane working conditions?

Desjardins: Definitely. Physicians frequently move out of state because of working conditions. In some departments, large portions of several divisions leave en masse to practice elsewhere or abandon their medical career. Most would like to move out of the U.S. into countries with better working conditions for physicians, such as Canada, the U.K., or European Union countries, but immigration and licensure issues prevent them from moving abroad.

Jacobsen: What does this bode for the future of the American healthcare system?

Desjardins: The American healthcare system is collapsing. A massive shortage of healthcare workers is rapidly worsening, made even worse by the treatment of U.S. healthcare workers during the recent pandemic. The three-year probation time recently imposed by a judge on a massively overworked nurse for a fatal mistake will likely have a massive negative impact. These factors decrease the interest of foreign healthcare workers to move to the U.S., reduce the appeal of Americans to enter the medical field and make healthcare workers retire earlier. They have caused the development of healthcare deserts in 80% of the counties in the U.S., which lack access to the medical workforce, hospitals, or pharmacies. The present situation is bleak, but the future will be even more dismal.

Footnotes

[1] Academic Physician; Member, OlympIQ Society; Member, Mega Society.

[2] Individual Publication Date: May 15, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/american-medicine-2; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightpublishing.com/insight-issues/.

*High range testing (HRT) should be taken with honest skepticism grounded in the limited empirical development of the field at present, even in spite of honest and sincere efforts. If a higher general intelligence score, then the greater the variability in, and margin of error in, the general intelligence scores because of the greater rarity in the population.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. The American Medical System and Physicians 2: Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI on the Poor Working Conditions for American Physicians[Online]. May 2022; 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/american-medicine-2.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, May 15). The American Medical System and Physicians 2: Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI on the Poor Working Conditions for American Physicians. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/american-medicine-2.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. The American Medical System and Physicians 2: Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI on the Poor Working Conditions for American Physicians. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E, May. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/american-medicine-2>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “The American Medical System and Physicians 2: Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI on the Poor Working Conditions for American Physicians.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/american-medicine-2.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The American Medical System and Physicians 2: Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI on the Poor Working Conditions for American Physicians.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E (May 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/american-medicine-2.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The American Medical System and Physicians 2: Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI on the Poor Working Conditions for American Physicians’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/american-medicine-2>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The American Medical System and Physicians 2: Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI on the Poor Working Conditions for American Physicians’In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/american-medicine-2.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “The American Medical System and Physicians 2: Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI on the Poor Working Conditions for American Physicians.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): May. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/american-medicine-2>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The American Medical System and Physicians 2: Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI on the Poor Working Conditions for American Physicians[Internet]. (2022, May 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/american-medicine-2.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–2022. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

Joyce Arthur on New Reproductive Rights Updates in Canada

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2022/01/10

Joyce Arthur is the Founder and Executive Director of the Abortion Rights Coalition of Canada. She has been an abortion rights and pro-choice activist since 1998. Arthur worked for 10 years running the Pro-Choice Action Network. In addition to these accomplishments, she founded FIRST or the first national feminist group advocating for the rights of sex workers and the decriminalization prostitution in Canada. Here we look into recent updates in Canada regarding reproductive rights.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen:  What are the current risks to reproductive rights in Canadian society at the moment? Primarily, I presume legal and social attitudes are the main ‘thumbs’ to keep tabs on the pulse of the cultural moment.

Joyce Arthur: The legal right to abortion is safe in Canada, at least for now. Even a future Conservative government would be unlikely to challenge that. But we see from the example of the U.S. and other increasingly autocratic countries around the world, that we can never take our rights for granted. Right-wing forces are ever-present and determined, and they don’t care about truth, evidence, rule of law, or human rights. Once those values are jettisoned, democracy is lost and we could easily find ourselves in the Handmaid’s Tale. Let’s hope that the global lurch to authoritarianism can be contained before it gets worse!

In our current reality, the main reproductive justice issues in Canada we still need to work on are improving access to abortion and sexual healthcare, especially for marginalized and rural populations, and destigmatizing abortion and reducing misinformation. Access is generally more difficult in smaller and more conservative provinces. New Brunswick is still in violation of the Canada Health Act by enforcing a regulation that denies funding for surgical abortions at Clinic 554. And the anti-choice movement is very active at reinforcing stigma and spreading false propaganda.

Jacobsen: What have been setbacks to reproductive rights activism?

Arthur: I think reproductive rights activism has been very strong in Canada, with no setbacks. Since 1988, it’s mostly been a string of victories – legal, social, political. The reproductive justice movement in Canada is vibrant, diverse, and determined. They have stood up strongly against past threats to reproductive rights, pretty much defeated them all, and I’m confident that will continue. A recent example happened in June 2021 – it was discovered that the University of Saskatchewan’s College of Medicine was sending medical students to a local anti-choice “crisis pregnancy centre” for practicums. Public outrage, grassroots activism, and pressure from the Gender Engagement Medical group at USask resulted in the College of Medicine ending their association with the CPC.

That’s not to say things are perfect or the anti-choice movement never wins, despite our advocacy. For example, I used to be able to say that the anti-choice movement has never won a court case in Canada in over 30 years, but that’s no longer the case. They recently prevailed in two cases in Alberta – a 2020 case allowing anti-choice events on University of Alberta campuses, and a 2021 case allowing inaccurate anti-choice advertising on buses in Lethbridge. But other similar bus advertising cases are pending (in Guelph and Hamilton) and we hope to prevail. 

Jacobsen: Politician Sam Oosterhoff is an interesting case. What have been the ‘highlights’ of the political career for the young man, regarding reproductive rights, so far?

Arthur: On a personal note, Sam Oosterhoff was raised in the same fundamentalist church as me (Canadian Reformed). While I left the church and became an atheist, he became more radicalized. Or maybe he’s just an example of a young privileged white man who’s never had to think about the realities of life for women and gender minorities.

I invite readers to check out my March 2021 article at Rabble.ca, which goes into detail on all the lowlights (not highlights!) of Oosterhoff’s career against human rights and women’s rights. As I wrote in the piece, he’s an example of how open misogyny is still acceptable in the Ontario Conservative party. In 2019, Ontario NDP Leader Andrea Horwath reacted to Oosterhoff by saying: “We are horrified that Doug Ford continues to refuse to denounce his MPP’s dangerous, anti-choice and anti-women position.”

Jacobsen: Which politicians, without regard for party label, have made the greatest impression upon you? Those individuals who simply agree with and act out a political trail of equal rights.

Arthur: They have almost all been NDP politicians. Some Liberal politicians do the talk, but not the walk – or maybe just baby steps until being stopped at the next election call. Some past and current NDP politicians I respect and have worked with – people who really care about advancing human rights and equality – include Svend Robinson, Libby Davies, Lyndsay Mathyssen, Don Davies, and Niki Ashton. On the Liberal side, I admire Chrystia Freeland and would love to meet her someday. Even Justin despite his flaws! At least he speaks up for reproductive rights, which other leaders rarely do.

Jacobsen: What other social figures have been creating havoc for the women’s rights landscape?

Arthur: There’s many anti-choice groups and individuals out there, but three groups come to mind that are trying quite hard to attack and undermine human rights – the Canadian Centre for Bio-Ethical Reform (CCBR), the Association for Reformed Political Action Canada (ARPA), and Right Now.

The CCBR inflicts much harm and upset onto communities via their display and distribution of graphic images of aborted fetuses. ARPA Canada tries to influence government policy and law with Christian and Biblical values. Their legal work is mostly targeted at protecting right-wing interpretations of freedom of expression and religion. RightNow works to get anti-choice politicians elected with the hope they will pass laws against abortion. They’ve been successful at getting several politicians elected, including Erin O’Toole as Conservative Party leader.

Notably, Erin O’Toole claims to be pro-choice, but Abortion Rights Coalition of Canada has listed him as anti-choice since 2016 because he voted in favour of an anti-choice bill. During the Sept 2021 election campaign, I wrote about how O’Toole is still not pro-choice.

Another politician to highlight is Leslyn Lewis, who narrowly lost the federal Conservative Party leadership contest in 2020 despite her extremist anti-choice views. But she won a seat in the 2021 election as MP for Haldimand–Norfolk in Ontario. Her latest campaign is to stop the government from revoking the charitable status of anti-choice groups, even though the Liberal promise was only to decline new applications from anti-choice groups, not revoke existing ones. A few other anti-choice hardliners in the Conservative Party include Cathay Wagantall who has introduced two anti-choice private member bills since 2016, as well as Garnett Genuis, Rachael Harder, Cheryl Gallant, and Arnold Viersen.

Jacobsen: What have been the major inroads for equal reproductive rights in the last couple of years in Canada?

Arthur: The pandemic has brought challenges but also opportunities. The biggest has been a major switch to telemedicine abortion. Most people in Canada can now have a phone call or video call with a provider to get a prescription for abortion pills, which they can then fill at their local pharmacy for free. That has been a real game changer. Telemedicine care must continue to expand because Canada is a huge country and people in rural areas and the North have major barriers in accessing care otherwise. Of course, the pandemic has created many hardships too, primarily difficulties with travelling, including to the U.S. for later abortions.

You asked about the last couple of years, but ARCC produced lists of “Pro-choice Victories” that occurred in 2018 and 2019. We paused because of the pandemic but hope to publish another list for 2022!

Jacobsen: How did the 2016-2021 period in the United States change the discourse for Canadian reproductive rights law?

Arthur: It certainly created fear, in terms of what might happen in Canada. When Trump was first elected in 2016, ARCC’s website crashed because so many Americans were worried about abortion access and if they could come to Canada.

But the issue became especially relevant when Alabama passed its 6-week ban in May 2019 (that law was blocked and is still not in force) and when Texas started enforcing a similar ban in September 2021 – with the added feature of outsourcing enforcement to bounty hunters. In both cases, the global media coverage resulted in a huge public outcry with protests, including in Canada, and much alarm over whether our rights were at risk in Canada too. I believe they are not because the political dynamics and systems in the U.S. and Canada are so different.

For example, the U.S. is demographically much more religious and right-wing than Canada. Another aspect is that provinces don’t have the jurisdiction to pass laws to restrict abortions in the way that many U.S. states have, while our federal parties take a hands-off approach to legislating on abortion. But we must always remain vigilant.

Jacobsen: What options exist now for people who need to access abortion or sexual healthcare? What associations, societies, and organizations can give options to people who happen to scroll across this – for themselves, friends, or colleagues?

Arthur: There’s several good resources people can check:

Jacobsen: Are there any pieces of legislation or facilities coming in 2022 to help even the landscape more?

Arthur: I hope that provincial and municipal laws can be passed to limit the damage caused by the display or distribution of graphic images of aborted fetuses. The cities of Toronto and London are deciding whether to pass bylaws limiting graphic signage in public and prohibiting flyer delivery to homes (respectively). Ontario and BC may pass provincial laws that require graphic flyers to be placed in envelopes with identifying information on the outside, so the resident can choose not to open.

I also hope that the federal Canada Health Act can be strengthened to clarify that abortion care must be fully funded in all cases, regardless of where it’s done – hospitals, private clinics, or doctors offices. This was a Liberal promise in the fall 2021 election campaign. Besides New Brunswick not funding surgical abortions at Clinic 554, Ontario does not fully fund some abortion clinics.

A further Liberal promise was to amend the Income Tax Act to preclude anti-choice groups from becoming charities. Yet another Liberal promise – for which ARCC had been lobbying for years – is a new Health Canada website portal with accurate information on abortion. I’m excited about that, because a central repository of accurate and reliable info on abortion could really help to defuse anti-choice misinformation and reduce the influence of “crisis pregnancy centres”.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Joyce.

Arthur: My pleasure!

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Jon 42: Excelsior!

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2022/01/07

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the former President of the Secular Humanist Society of New York and a still a board memberHere we talk about the positive impacts of assertive government interventions and social consciousness improving conditions for all, for a sense of normalcy – even blues music(!).

*Interview conducted October 11, 2021.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: We’re back with Ask Jon. We’ll be talking about the New York state situation with respect to COVID vaccinations and restrictions and public policy. On the other hand, we will be talking about the case in Texas as a comparison. Then we’ll look at the unified situation between a secular humanist point of view and a religious point of view vis-a-vis evidence-based public policy. So with New York State, you went out to an event. What was that event? What were the conditions under which you could attend in the current COVID situation in New York?

Jonathan Engel: Well, my wife and I on Saturday, this past Saturday night, went to a concert at the Beacon Theatre on the Upper West Side, which, as New York is a great place to see a concert. It’s got an occupancy of about 2,000 people, and you can see well from anywhere and the sound is really good. Anyway, we saw a band, the Tedeschi Trucks Band, led by Susan Tedeschi and Derek Trucks. If you don’t know them, again, a recommendation, to your readers, they are fantastic blues and soul, and that type of thing – really wonderful show. Whether it was the first time my wife and I had been to a big indoor venue like that, and I wouldn’t have gone at all, except for the fact that they had enforced the rules, which is that you had to show proof of vaccination to get in, so, we got to the front. The first thing they did was checked proof of vaccination, which, for me, is what New York state issues: the Excelsior Pass. But you can bring just your vaccination card, your Centers for Disease Control with that vaccination card. Then they checked my photo ID, my driver’s license against the name that was on my cell phone, or on my Excelsior Pass. So, that was the rule for everyone. They said: If you were under 12, then you had a note to bring a child under 12 to the show and that the child would have to wear a mask throughout the performance.

You didn’t have to wear a mask, otherwise, but you had to show – you had to prove – you were vaccinated to get it. That made me feel a lot more comfortable. I did wear a mask through most of the show. Some other people did. Most people didn’t. But it really made me feel better, and that’s the only way I would go. I’m not going to any venue that doesn’t insist and in New York City; it’s the law, anyway. So, this is the way it is these days here in the city, but it’s really helping us get back to normal. These mandates: You want to go to the show, then you got to show proof of vaccination. That’s saying that if they want to go to the show, they have to get vaccinated. That means a person like me feels comfortable going to a show knowing that I’m sitting around only other vaccinated people.

Of course, I, myself, am vaccinated. I couldn’t have done it, otherwise. So I think that’s really helping us. Right now, also, it’s helping just in general, the city. For example, there is no city mandate that all people work in health care and all people who work in education have to be vaccinated. In the week before that mandate went into effect, the vaccination rate of health care workers in New York City went from 82 percent to 90 percent. So, it is working. Those mandates are indeed working. But there is a cloud on the horizon because there is a lawsuit that has been filed to create a religious exemption and that is in the courts right now. I’m not sure exactly what the status is, but if that were to go through. If the courts were to agree and to say that health care facilities in New York and also schools in New York had to give a religious exemption, it really has the potential to set us back, which is the last thing we need right now.

So we’ll see where that case goes. But right now, you can go out to places. You can go to restaurants, et cetera, but concerts – like I went to Saturday night and for a fantastic show; but you have to prove that you’ve been vaccinated. There are no exceptions. So, we’re doing better. The city’s coming alive a little bit, which is great because that’s what this city is all about. But again, if religion is allowed to, like it does in some other places in this country, the United States, if religion is allowed to sort of take precedence and religious beliefs are going to Trump – pun intended –  the ability of us to get back to normal, then we could be in trouble again. So, we’re doing better. It’s looking better. But we have to keep it up, and we have to. Hopefully, again, we have this possibility that a religious exemption will set us back in our ability to go forward and back to some kind of normalcy.

Jacobsen: With regards to the Texas situation, there’s an issue with continual fundamentalist religious, typically Christian, efforts to restrict the rights of individuals on behalf of that larger theological framework. Particularly, these restrictions in the American context for the last half century or 50 years: Focus on women’s bodies. These can focus around autonomy rights. They can focus around individual choice rights. They can focus around freedom of conscience rights. How ever they are framed, the main idea is restriction of women in choice, about reproduction and about their bodies. So, about their long term well-being and their short term choices of well-being, with respect to either of those, how is this case in New York related in terms of Secular Humanism and religious views to the other one?

Engel: What’s going on in Texas is something that is very frightening for a lot of people, obviously, people in this country still remember if they’re old enough. I mean my age or older. A time when Roe v Wade, where in certain states abortion was illegal, certain states it was not. Again, mostly in the Bible Belt, what we call the Bible bBelt, the South through the lower Midwest of this country. So, the question, it’s very much a constitutional question because women in this country have the right to abortion. There are certain guidelines and rules forwithin a certain time. But clearly, this Texas law violates the constitution, as set forth in the case of Roe versus Wade. So, we have, in Texas, now, women fleeing to neighboring states to get abortions because they can’t get one in Texas. That’s endangering their health. That’s endangering their well being. The purpose behind a lot of this is to enshrine religious beliefs in this country. To enshrine religious belief at the detriment of all others, if a person believes that getting an abortion is against their religion, they don’t have to get an abortion. I mean, nobody’s forcing it, that on anyone. But the bottom line is that, the culture and the right wing politics have come together with religion in a way that is dangerous to the United States.

And you see that in New York, “I want a religious exemption to vaccine.” Not everybody who wants a religious exemption is really, really religious. I mean, they can’t go to their holy book and point that, ‘Well, here’s where it says this,’ or, ‘Here’s where it’s bad or something.’ A lot of this has been wound up in this cultural kind of fight that, that essentially it’s not only,, from religion, but also against any sense of the common good. So, you see in Texas religious freedom and religious beliefs have been used to restrict the women’s right to choose. here in New York, there are those who are trying to cripple our ability to come back from the COVID vaccine. Again using religion as an excuse.

But in my view, as an attorney, I see this as being unconstitutional because which religions are going to be prioritized, which religious beliefs? There are a lot of references the the Bible. Certainly, the Christian Bible says nothing about contraception or abortion, but has become a cultural sort of touchstone that that’s my entwined with religion. So that’s my religious beliefs. government can’t be in the business of deciding whose religious beliefs are to be accepted and whose aren’t. So you can have your religious beliefs and you can say, I’m not going to get an abortion because of my religious beliefs. But once you start saying they can’t get an abortion because of my religious beliefs, or I should be able to go work in a hospital even though I haven’t been vaccinated because of my religious beliefs.

Once you start accepting that kind of thing, which again, in my view, is against the Constitution, because what the Constitution permits the free exercise of religion, mandates of the provision of free exercise of religion, it also says that government cannot establish religion. So the idea is that government stays away from the religious business, including, when it comes to decisions about health, when it comes to decisions about health care and vaccinations, government stays out of it with regard to religion. But you can go ahead and practice religion, if you want to. If you really believe that your religion says that you shouldn’t get vaccinated, you don’t have to get vaccinated. Nobody is forcing people to get vaccinated, but you can’t work in a hospital and you can’t work in a school with kids who are under 12 and can’t get vaccinated. This is all reasonable to me, but religious beliefs are being used to chip away at these common sensical health and educational beliefs and systems. That, to me, is what is a tremendous danger here in this country. You see it with the vaccines. You’re seeing it in Texas. By the way, people who are against abortion or frequently against the types of things that lower abortion rates. Because I can tell you from research, because I’ve done research on it that making abortion illegal doesn’t lower abortion rates; it just makes it more dangerous.

Women still get abortions, but they do it, illegally. They do it, as we used to call “back alley abortions.” It becomes unsafe, but it doesn’t stop. It doesn’t stop them from abortion. So what happens is that there are a lot of people in this country who want abortion to be illegal. But, are not interested in doing the types of things that actually lower abortion rates, myself as a secular humanist, I want to look at the evidence. I want to look; because again, I once saw a study that looked at a couple of countries where abortion is absolutely illegal in all circumstances in South America and they compare that to a couple of countries in Europe, where abortion is legal and is paid for by government health insurance and the abortion rates are high in the countries where abortion was illegal more than where it’s legal.

So what I’m looking for is an evidence base and determining what’s best for the common good of the people, as a secularist and as a humanist. But we have a lot of religious people who are doing kind of the opposite; that it’s still my religious dogma that should determine what the law is not, not research based evidence. Again, we see that in Texas; and we see that here in New York with the lawsuit looking to create religious exemptions to a vaccine policy that is helping us to get better to get more healthy.

Jacobsen: Jon, as always, thanks so much for your time.

Engel: Well, it’s a pleasure, Scott, as always.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Jon 41: Altered Altars and Jones to Pick

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/11/14

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New YorkHere we talk about Bob Jones University and uncovering historical moments in religious fundamentalism encroachments into political spheres, where things begin decades prior.

*Interview conducted September 13, 2021.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: The topic today is going to be about hidden parts of secular history in the United States. One of them being the ongoing war, more or less, between Evangelical Christians and much of the rest of the nation. A traditional idea is women’s bodies legal battles, where there is the start of a lot of these attempts to bring Evangelical protestant movements to political power. However, that’s not entirely true. Although, it’s partly true. What’s the more complete story there? What happened before Roe v. Wade?

Jonathan Engel: Well, the lies of the religious right politically in the United States — which is traced usually to about the early 70s — it came about for a number of different reasons. But, most people assume its origins was with the Roe v. Wade case on legalized abortion. It’s kind of reasonable that people would think that’s really where the origin was because it’s become such an overwhelming part of the Evangelical movement. If they’re smart, which I guess some of them are and some of them aren’t. They would know that ending legalized abortion will not end abortion. Ending legalized abortion has become such a huge rallying cry. It has been for many years of the religious right Evangelicals – that it is assumed; it was the Roe v. Wade decision that started it with the people who eventually led that movement, especially early on. People like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell Sr. and Phyllis Schlafly and Ralph Reid. and others as well.

Most historians — there’s been some interesting articles published recently in historical journals about this — look back at that era and say it was a different Supreme Court case that — actually I’m not sure if it was Supreme Court, it was a different court case — that actually led Evangelicals to start up a much more politicized kind of movement. And that was a case of Bob Jones University in South Carolina. Now, Bob Jones University had a policy: no black people allowed here. That was it. But they did have non-profit status under the federal internal revenue service. That’s very essential because that means people can give them money as a donation and deduct it from their income tax. If they weren’t formally recognized by the IRS, you could still give money, but you couldn’t deduct it from your income tax.

Not to mention the fact that they would be subject to things like real estate taxes, if they weren’t an official non-profit. The thing is though, the IRS also has rules that say that non-profits can not discriminate on the basis of race, so the IRS said to Bob Jones University, ‘We are cutting off your non-profit status because you do not comply with our rules against racial discrimination.’ It was upheld in the courts, and that sent white Evangelicals around the bend. They were crazy about this decision. And that’s what really started them in their quest for political power, or increased political power. Roe v. Wade was something that they really used and continue to use as a vehicle, as something that really gets the base of their Evangelicals all excited to go out and vote and everything else like that. It’s been a very important part of the Evangelical political movement in this country, but it started with Bob Jones University. It was not started to save unborn babies, as crazy as that all is; it was the Evangelical political movement in this country started in order to enforce segregation. And it was important to them beyond Bob Jones University, because what happened in the 60s and 70s. You started to get court rulings saying that discrimination in public schools was not going to be tolerated.

Of course, the schools would say, ‘Oh, we’re not discriminating, it just kind of worked out this way that all the black kids in our district go to this school and the white kids go to this school.’ It was in the late 60s and early 70s that courts started saying , ‘No, no, no, no, that’s not good enough. We’re going to integrate your schools.’ At which point, there were a lot of whites, primarily upper middle class and wealthy whites, who started their own schools, which were, once again, they never had any formal statements, ‘No black kids allowed,’ but they were all whites! It just happened to work out that way. They were afraid. They were very afraid from the Bob Jones case. I mean this was the whole point. They started these schools because they wanted their kids to go to all-white schools, just like they did when segregation was approved by southern states.

They wanted to continue that. And then all of a sudden, they were afraid that the ruling in Bob Jones University would mean they would lose their non-profit status and that parents who were shoveling money into them and deducting that money from their income taxes could no longer deduct the money, it was going to hurt them financially. And that was really the start. Again, the moral majority, Jerry Falwell, et cetera., all that political power that we see still today, from right wing Christian Evangelicals, the reason they started to get involved — again, Roe v. Wade was an accelerant and it pushed it forward — but the start of the fire was the desire to have their kids go to segregated schools.

Jacobsen: For these kinds of movements, do they evolve much over time, or do their essential drivers stay the same?

Engel: Well, they don’t believe in evolution, so [Laughing]…

Jacobsen: [Laughing] That was good.

Engel: But yeah, of course, they take up certain causes. You see this with COVID. One of their causes now is against any kind of mandate, mask mandate, vaccine mandate. Anything that they think will whip up the people that constitute their base. They are always on the lookout for a new issue to go crazy for. Now, especially if the Supreme Court really does overturn Roe v. Wade, it’s like the dog that catches the car. What’s he gonna do with it? Now what? And they will, obviously, go looking for something else. Some other way to preserve their political power, which is largely part of a racial type of thing. Something like 85% of CEOs in this country are white Christian males. They want to keep it that way. They will glom onto anything. Now, it’s mask mandates. It’s vaccine mandates that they’re really against. They do evolve in that sense. They find new issues, et cetera, but as for their actual thinking — if you could call it that, which is a stretch — their thinking is basically the same. And again, it’s all about maintaining white, Christian male power in this country.

Jacobsen: Do you think that some of the attitudes have changed in terms of the significance of race and racial politics within Evangelical movements?

Engel: It doesn’t look like it has. I don’t really think it’s changed all that much. I mean, every once in a while, there is a semi effort to bring in black or Hispanic Evangelicals who may be socially conservative too, but there’s too many things that give away the ghost. They can sort of talk about those sorts of things and make little efforts toward it, but this is a white movement. This is a white Christian movement. And that’s one thing that a lot of Liberals and Democrats have a difficult time with; as you would imagine, it pisses me off, but they have a difficult time with it. They have a difficult time saying the Christian part. When January 6th happened, you had a lot of Liberal commentators talking about the white nationalism of the people who are invading the Capitol. But it’s not just white nationalism. It’s white Christian nationalism. They just shy away from saying that. There are so many people who are afraid of criticizing religion.

That they will shy away from saying that. The truth of the matter, there it is: yes, it is white Christian nationalism. Other people on January 6th, you see these lunatics including the ‘QAnon Shaman’ or whatever this guy is who has now pleaded guilty to charges. What did they do as soon as they got inside the chambers? They said ‘w, ‘We are here to sanctify this chamber in the name of Jesus Christ.’ That’s what they said! And it’s on film. It’s on tape. There was a lot of Christian symbolism and imagery in the crowd as well. This is a white, Christian, male-dominated movement. Even though, there are Liberals who are nervous about saying anything negative about religion. The truth is still there and this is what it is.

Jacobsen: So, Bob Jones University is still in existence. What does this mean in terms of the continuing part Evangelical Christianity is playing within American politics and post secondary education, at least at the private level?

Engel: Well, it’s interesting because Bob Jones University has sort of fallen off of people’s radar. I bet if you ask the majority of Americans, “What do you think of Bob Jones University?” They’ll say, “What’s that? Never heard of it.” They’ve used it for their purposes, and then they’ve sort of tossed it away. There are other Christian colleges in this country that are hotbeds for right wing teaching, right wing think tanks. You look at Liberty College which is in Virginia. It was founded by Jerry Falwell, and then it was run by Jerry Falwell Jr. who got into — oh my god, you’re never going to believe this — a sex scandal, and he was tossed out. There’s an old saying that patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel, but I really think it’s religion. Religion is the last refuge of the scoundrel. And so, you have this guy who’s basically Jerry Falwell Jr.… I don’t care what he did, that’s between him and his wife, his shenanigans, as they’re sometimes called. I don’t care. I don’t think it makes him a good person. It’s still established law, though,. You can’t openly discriminate and have 501(c)(3) non-profit status. The Bob Jones case is still good law. It has been all the time, but even though nobody talks about Bob Jones anymore, you still see the effects of that bringing together of people to say, “We are going to…” — again they don’t say it explicitly — “…have a white power dynamic in this country to hold on to,” and it’s still there.

Jacobsen: What about the end game? What is the trajectory of this playing out in politics? Because the demographics for Evangelical Christians does not look good. In other words, they are declining. They have been declining for years and years, and the younger populations in the United States are much more secular. Whether by name or by content of belief, they are more secular humanist than any prior generation in the United States. So how does this change as things move forward?

Engel: That’s a very good question, and it’s a very frightening question, because the answer is frightening. We’re seeing how this plays out. They know the demographics are against them. They know the cultural shifts are against them. It’s so funny. You hear right wingers say, ‘Corporations… Hollywood is trying to influence the way we think about race.’ No, they’re not. They’re trying to make money. They want to stay ahead of the culture. They want to stay right where the culture is, or a little bit ahead. But that’s because they see if that’s where the culture is going, then that’s where the money is going to be. So, what’s frightening so much about your question is that all around this country right now — and this could be a topic for a long conversation but I’ll try to nutshell it — but all around this country right now you’re seeing attempts by state legislatures and states that are basically Republican, try and really defeat democracy.

Voter suppression, trying to have rules that will hurt people’s ability to vote, so there will be fewer voters. But also, and this is the scariest part, they really are looking to find ways to pass laws that say, essentially, ‘If the state legislature doesn’t like the way the people voted in, say a presidential election, that instead of the electors in that state going toward the person who won the most votes, the state legislature can decide where to send their electoral votes.’ So, there is an actual effort in this country to counter the demographic trends you were talking about. The demographics are there, this country is becoming less Christian, less white and the way they want to counter that — and again you would look to say, ‘Well shit, that must mean that they’re not going to do well in the elections going forward’ — and they say, ‘Well, yeah, we’re gonna fix that. And the way we’re going to fix that is we’re going to fix our elections.’ And that’s really a very frightening thing.

Democrats have a couple of bills that they would like to pass, certainly out of the House, or they have past out of the House, that protect voting rights and protect democracy, but the problem is that they can’t get it past in the Senate, and it’s not going to become law, and therefore there’s real dangers of losing democracy, and that’s where the end game is right now for the white Evangelical extreme right. They see that those demographics work against them. So, they’re trying to change the structure of our democracy to keep power, despite the fact that they know they are in the minority when it comes to what the overall view of the people is.

Jacobsen: Jon, as always, thank you very much for your time and the opportunity today.

Engel: My pleasure, Scott. Listen, take care.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Jon 40: Transcendentalist Ethics, or Moral Truncation in Practice

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/11/07

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New YorkHere we talk about ongoing problems with religious ethics in practice in critical times.

*Interview conducted August 30, 2021.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, today we’re going to be focusing on mandates around COVID, and religious institutions and the State. With regards to COVID in America now, one: what are some of the numbers or general census around the country? Also, what’s the impact of exclusions for religion when it comes to mandates from the State? How does this play out in New York State along religious and non-religious lines? 

Jonathan Engel: Well, good question. Basically, in the United States as a whole right now, you’re seeing very high spikes and very difficult circumstances surrounding COVID in certain states. And not surprisingly, the states that are having the worst uptick of COVID tend to be those states that have the lowest vaccination rates. And they also happen to be states that — for the most part — are in the south and the middle of the country. You have Florida, Mississippi, Alabama, Louisiana, Missouri, Arkansas, Texas, and Tennessee as well. Now, this is what we in this country call the ‘Bible Belt’, not surprisingly. It’s very conservative, very religious, and those are the areas that are seeing really bad COVID spikes. We’re talking about hospitals that are absolutely full. We’re talking about affecting younger and younger people.

Some young people who are in their 20s and 30s or whatever, are somewhat cavalier about COVID at first. But the Delta variant, it was thought that this affects old people, but the Delta variant is hitting young people, sometimes very young people. It’s also just absolutely overwhelming. We’re talking about one hospital in Mississippi, University of Mississippi Medical Centre, the biggest hospital in the state, turned their parking garage into an extra intensive care centre because they just didn’t have any space. They’re really being overwhelmed. Here in New York, things are not that bad. But again, New York is one of the more highly vaccinated states. We have managed to keep things fairly manageable, not saying people aren’t still getting COVID here, but also remember we’re kind of scared.

I know I am, because every day in this country, there are buses going from every city and small town in the country to New York City. ‘If you can make it there, you can make it anywhere.’ We’re nervous. I’m nervous, about people coming from other states and not being vaccinated and spreading the Delta variant here. I think that’s a real fear. So, that’s really where things stand in the country right now.  Now, here in New York City, unfortunately — again, things are going not too badly — but there’s a lot of confusion about what you’re allowed to do, and not allowed to do, where you have to prove vaccination, and where you have to wear a mask. Fortunately in the schools — my wife is going back to teaching in a couple of weeks — they have mandates for all adults in the building must be vaccinated and everybody has to wear a mask. So, you feel a little bit better about that. But houses of worship are having an interesting time.

You have different religions and different denominations of religion. They seem to be dealing with the COVID crisis differently. For example, I read recently how reformed Jewish synagogues — which is, of course, the least religious — a lot of them are having vaccine mandates. You want to come to the High Holy Days, Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur are coming up. You want to go to the service. You have to show proof of your vaccination. I actually have an Excelsior pass. You go online and get the petition by the state. I keep one on my phone that shows that I’m vaccinated. On the other hand, the ultra orthodox, the Hasidic are fighting against any kind of mandates for vaccination. The city is sort of taking both sides.

The city government doesn’t want to offend the ultra religious and on the other hand doesn’t want a spike in COVID, so they’re sort of running into each other without knowing what the heck they’re doing. The Catholic Church is sort of leaving it up to individual perishes. The Pope is saying people should get vaccinated, but then you have some very conservative Catholics in this country and in the city who are emphasizing ‘it should be a matter of personal choice, there shouldn’t be any mandates.’ One of the interesting things that you’re seeing is that with some churches and houses of worship in general, they lost money when they had to shut down because of COVID. Because a lot of them rely on people coming every Sunday or Saturday, depending on what religion it is, and putting money into the collection plate.

On the one hand, they know that if there’s an outbreak centered on their community it’ll be devastating. On the other hand they know if they say they require vaccinations, people who are anti-vaccination-mandates won’t come, and they’ll lose money. They don’t really know what the heck to do with regard to the COVID situation. As an individual — well I don’t go to houses of worship, I guess, except for, maybe, a wedding or a bar mitzvah once in a while — I would not go if it wasn’t mandatory vaccine, any indoor event. Outdoors, I would be a little less wary of, but any indoor event, if they don’t require vaccines, I ain’t going. How this is all gonna play out? We’re not sure. This is some of what’s going on with the local churches and synagogues. The less religious they are, the more progressive they are politically, the more likely they are to have a vaccine mandate to come inside and participate in services or mass or whatever it is.

The more religious they are, the less likely they are to agree to those kinds of mandates, and it leaves everybody else, including me, nervous about a big outbreak. You can’t confine a big outbreak. If someone goes to an Orthodox synagogue, with no masks, no vaccine requirements, they’re gonna leave that neighborhood. They’re going to get on the subway. I ride the subway. Right now, everyone’s keeping their fingers crossed, and kind of nervous. Organized religion, again, the less religious among us seem to be doing their part, more or less. The more religious among us are not, and as we all know, when it comes to COVID, there’s no confining it to one place.

Jacobsen: How are the non-religious discussing some of these issues? Is this coming up at all? Or is it mainly coming through commentary in the New York Times and through leaders noticing this but not having a formal discussion in public about it?

Engel: I think that there’s such a taboo about saying something against religion in this country. You see in Bangladesh, from people who are vaccinated against people who aren’t vaccinated, people who refuse to get vaccinated. We’re getting pissed off that we could be so much better and safer than we are, if people would just roll up their sleeves, it’s free! Hell, in a lot of places, they’ll give you something to do it. Very few make the connection between that refusal to get vaccinated and religion, but the connection is there. Obviously, it’s not 100%. There are a lot of people who refuse to get vaccinated where it doesn’t have anything to do with religious beliefs, but it is a very strong indicator, like we were just talking about.

If you meet a person who refuses to get vaccinated, there is a very good chance that they belong to a religion or a sect that is more fundamentalist and more extreme in their religious beliefs. People don’t want to say it — hell, I’ll say it — a lot of people don’t want to say it and they don’t want to admit it. There is backlash against the unvaccinated in a lot of places and some anger brewing, but the connection to the religious beliefs has been a lot of people don’t want to make it. They can see the connection is there, the correlation is there. There are a lot of ministers out there saying, ‘We will not wear their masks. It’s the sign of the devil.’ I don’t understand a lot of this stuff. ‘The vaccine is a sign of the antichrist,’ or something, I don’t even understand any of that. People are not making that connection, and they really should, at least not in public. I would like to think that in our movement away from heavy duty religiosity in this country, which is being spearheaded by young people — young people tend to be much less religious than their parents — that they are saying, ‘We want to go back to normal. We want to solve this COVID crisis.’ We can see that organized religion, especially extremist organized religion is something that’s getting in the way in our fight against COVID.

Jacobsen: How do you think this is changing demographic attitudes about supernatural ideas, not just religion in general?

Engel: Well, let’s put it this way. From a theoretical point of view, I think it is changing attitudes. It would make sense that we change attitudes. That people would see how many religious people who prayed, et cetera, got COVID and died from it. Not just that, but also at a time when it seems like it’s a public good or a common good for everybody to get vaccinated, I think that they can see that extremist religion is a force against that. Not just a force against that, but also, it’s not helping anybody. There are religious people all over the place who are falling dead from COVID. I would think, at least theoretically, that you’d make that connection, especially a young person who might be open to new ideas, and say, ‘If that doesn’t work, if praying has not saved people from dying from COVID, maybe, we should rethink this whole prayer thing in general,’ and make that sort of connection. In many places, there is obviously a very big reluctance to look at things in that logical sense.

Remember, this is something I always ask, “Where do kids learn that believing in something for which there is no evidence is not only okay, but a great virtue?” And that’s in church. And it’s breaking that area of beliefs that, I think, can help advance the concept of secularism and rejection of the supernatural, which is there. With young people especially, if they can escape that belief that somehow believing in something for which there is no evidence is a sign that you’re a good person, and if you don’t believe that, you’re a bad person. I think that’s a poor concept of how we break the stranglehold of religion and anti-science in this country, which is destroying that concept that we should always believe that if someone has faith; they believe in something for which they have no evidence; that’s a sign of them being a good person, as opposed to it being a sign that they’re a delusional person, a non-scientific person. A person who has some sort of mental illness, perhaps. It doesn’t make sense. It doesn’t do you good, or anybody any good, to believe in something for which there is no evidence.

Jacobsen: Many of these ideas are coming out of the idea of an interventionist God to save them from the Coronavirus. Fundamentally, this is around how we behave with ourselves and towards others. That’s ethics. So, this ethic is grounded in divine intervention. By definition, that’s an ethic of transcendentalism, or supernaturalist ethics. 

Engel: That’s a fascinating concept.

Jacobsen: With a majority concept to the world around ethics probably 84% of the world is religious, something like this so, what is this saying about supernatural ethics? It doesn’t do anything. Yet, most of the world has a moral map built on that. Is this saying that most Americans, for instance, most of the population, is not grounding their ethical decision making, their ethical decision tree, in the real world?

Engel: Yeah, and you see what happens when that is the case, but absolutely, that’s a very strong point. You do not get a vaccine because you think God is going to protect you. What is that saying to the rest of your community? You are not acting as an ethical person in that case because you are putting other people’s lives at risk. It’s interesting how many people say, ‘Well, people just don’t want the government telling them what to do.’ They want anarchy? I don’t think they want anarchy. The government in this country tells us that we have to drive on the right hand side of the road. So, we’re going to have someone say, ‘I don’t want the government telling me what to do. I’m going to drive on the left-hand side of the road.’ This is the nature of not just an ethical society, but of any society. We have rules. How did we come to those rules? Well, by common consensus.

The rules are necessary for us in order to live our lives in any kind of safety. To have any kind of decency and common good in a county, we need to have certain rules. There’s no problem questioning the rules. You can ask a question, but that doesn’t mean that the rules shouldn’t apply to you or shouldn’t exist. When you put yourself in God’s hands… I remember a few years ago, reading a story about a very religious woman in Florida who was driving in her car, and she lost control of the car. Fortunately, she was not hurt and nobody else was hurt, but boy did she demolish a house. And afterward, she said, ‘I sort of lost control, and then just I closed my eyes and put my faith in Jesus, and that’s what I did.’ I think it’s a strong point that you’re making that not only is that deluded and crazy, but it’s also unethical. When she did that, what she said was ‘You are putting your beliefs which are not supported by any evidence, and not only risking your own life but risking the lives of other people.’ That is unethical.

To not get vaccinated is unethical, because it’s putting at risk other people in your community, especially children, who can’t get vaccinated, it’s funny; there used to be a saying that people talk about that your right to swing your fist ends at my nose. You have your rights, but you can’t hurt me. And now, today, it seems like there are people in this country whose idea is more like your getting punched in the nose is the price we pay for the right to swing my fist. That is not ethical. I don’t care if you base that on religion or on anything else. That is simply not ethical. And that is something that is worrisome and frightening and hopefully something that at least most Americans would be against. The idea that I can do whatever I want and it doesn’t matter if it hurts. Individual freedom is great, but I go back to the old one. You have your right to swing your fist around, but that right ends at my nose. You have the right to be a little crazy, but if it puts other people in danger… including being religious, you have the right to believe in the great sky deity, and all the rest of that stuff, but you do not have the right to act in an unethical way that puts other people in danger. I think that’s another important point.

Jacobsen: Good sir, thank you as always, I have to run off to another meeting.

Engel: You take care, now.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Jon 39: “That person’s religious beliefs are hurting him and his community.”

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/10/21

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New YorkHere we talk about changes in the secular New York community with COVID.

*Interview conducted July 25, 2021.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Okay, we are back after an approximately three month and three week hiatus with Ask Jon. So, the Biden/Harris administration has been in for about six months or so, since inauguration. With that transition — and six months seems like a reasonable time to begin asking some of these questions — what has been the feeling in New York state over time? What has been the change in the conversation within the secular community there?

Jonathan Engel: Well, a lot of it is just ‘wait and see.’ Although, yes, it has been six months and the Biden administration started off kind of like gangbusters, because one of the first things they did — it was a real emergency they were responding to — was a big package of relief. Economic relief for small businesses and for individuals who had all taken big economic hits due to COVID. So, that started off really well. They did it without any Republican votes. They did it by a process in the Senate that’s called Reconciliation. The United States Senate has a lot of really weird rules. Included in those rules is the filibusters. Which means, if a bill is proposed, essentially, if 40 members of the Senate were opposed to the bill, vote to cut off the bait on the bill, the bill just goes away. It gives the minority a tremendous amount of power. Since they passed that through a budget process called Reconciliation, which means a straight 50 or 51 votes is good enough. Only budget matters can be passed that way. Right now, one of the things we’re sitting on here; we’re sitting on a lot of different things. There’s two different voting rights acts that Democrats want to pass. There’s immigration reform. There’s this whole infrastructure package. The bottom line is: things seem stalled right now. It got off to a fast start. Part of the issue has been that Biden and some other top democrats — for some reason I can’t quite figure — they’re looking for what they call bipartisanship. “Oh, we want to get some Republican votes.” This is essentially Charlie Brown, Lucy and the football.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Engel: It’s what it is. It happens all the time. The Democrats are Charlie Brown. They probably keep saying, “Yeah, if you just talk to us, and give us some of the things we want, we’ll vote for this bill and we’ll have this bill that’s bipartisan.” And then they negotiate and they negotiate, and the negotiations drag on, because Republicans are just trying to run out the clock anyway, and then when it comes time to actually vote on the bill, it’s time to pick up the football, and leave the Democrats flat on their backs, just like Charlie Brown. There’s also some question here. I know as a democrat and a liberal in New York. I’m wondering: What the heck is going on? Why is it that only Democrats have to be bipartisan? When Trump won in 2016, the Republicans had the House and the Senate, and Mitch McConnell didn’t say, ‘Oh, we wanna get bipartisanship,’ on anything. What he said was, “Elections have consequences.” Which was his way of saying, “We won, so we’re going to do whatever we want.” And then Democrats get in and it’s like, “Oh, we need to have some Republican support,” et cetera. So, right now, there’s a lot of frustration among people like me, on a number of fronts. In terms of the Biden administration, a lot of people like me are kind of frustrated. I understand how tough his situation is, but I’m tired of him thinking that Lucy is going to hold that football this time. This time she’s gonna really hold it. And it never happens that way, and it’s time to stop trying to make it happen that way. It’s time to take the Mitch McConell attitude, “We won, we’re going to do whatever we want.” As time passes, it gets a little bit and a little bit more frustrating. I think they got off to a good start and he’s done a number of really positive things, but he’s hung up on this “Oh let’s try and get some Republican votes” thing. And again, it’s like Charlie Brown, “I’m hung up on: I’m gonna kick that football, one of these days she’s gonna hold it and I’m gonna kick it,” and to the best of my knowledge that’s never happened. And since Charles Schultz has been dead for the last ten years or so, I don’t think it’s going to.

Jacobsen: What have you been impressed with by Biden? Those particular things that he’s done in policy, or in actions or in statements beneficial to the equality of the Secular community. I want to emphasize the idea is never superiority of any Secular group. It’s about equality, because there are so many areas in which Secular Americans, either by the attitude of the public or policy that is explicit, are discriminatory against the Secular community in the United States.

Engel: I haven’t seen very much to be honest. For people like me for whom secularism is really important, where separation of church and state is really important, I think some of us are just caught on the really huge issues. I mean, we’ve got life and death issues here. In case anybody hasn’t noticed, the world is on fire. Half of it. Half of it is flooded, half of it is on fire. Which is amazing to me, I’m always saying this to my wife, we’re always talking about how 15 years ago we saw the movie An Inconvenient Truth. Everything they said is happening. Everything. The extremes of heat. We’re focused on that. That’s life and death. We’re focused on the COVID situation, which is not on a good path right now. It is not getting better, it is getting worse. Focusing on that, and voting rights. There are so many hair-on-fire things going on that I think we are reluctant to come to Biden and say, “Look, it would be nice if you mention the phrase ‘separation of church and state’ a couple of times.” Everybody in the country right now knows what a devout guy Joe Biden is. He’s a devout Catholic, he’s a devout Catholic! They use that as a shield, when Republicans call us ‘Godless,’ which is something that we should be proud of, but that’s not the way it works here. And they use that as a shield, “Oh look at Joe, he’s so devout, he’s so devout!” And I don’t really give a damn, but he has not been good on secular issues so far, but I’ve been crowded out by all the hair-on-fire emergencies we’ve got going now. So that conversation really isn’t happening all that much, unfortunately. It’s an important issue to me. I know it’s an important issue to a lot of the people I know, but it’s just been crowded out. A lot of us are on the horns of a dilemma because on one hand, we think, “Yeah, it’s important to us, it’s an important issue, and we’re an important constituency to Biden and to the Democratic party, I’m talking about secular people. But a lot of us are like, “Well, you know, I’ve got to give the guy another grape now,” because he has all this other insanity to deal with. So, that’s really where it is, and it’s a little bit frustrating and a little bit disappointing, but I also find it a little bit understandable, considering again, the huge crises in climate and COVID that are happening right now in the country.

Jacobsen: What is John Rafferty saying about all this?

Engel: Oh, that’s an interesting question. In the Secular Humanist Society, we’re just trying to keep our heads over water. We lost membership over the course of the COVID lockdown. A lot of people kept touch with us by our live events, and I’ve been conducting a Zoom happy hour every Sunday at 5:00 for a while now to try and keep base with people. And of course, I’m in touch with John. I talk to him a lot, and right now as an organization we’re just trying to keep ourselves together and keep ourselves viable. And at the same time, we’re dealing with something a lot of people are dealing with right now, we’re going back tentatively, gingerly, to live events, et cetera, and we’re sitting here trying to plan for the next number of months. My feeling is that we should plan, we have to, but have to do so with the understanding that “the best laid schemes o’ mice an’ men, gang aft agley.” We really don’t know. I mean, my wife is a schoolteacher. What’s going to happen in September? Well, right now, the plan is all schools open, all schools in-person. This is all dependent on where the disease goes, and right now I don’t know where the disease is going, and nobody does. For me, it’s a feeling of very great uncertainty. I’ll give you an example. I love music, I love live music. One of the things I miss the most during the lockdowns was going to concerts. I usually go to ten or twelve live concerts a year, plus club dates and stuff like that, and I have to tell you. I’m buying tickets to shows, but I’m saying to myself, “I’m honestly not sure I’m going to be going to them.” Fortunately, most of the venues I’m buying at are very clear that you must show proof of vaccination to get in, but even so I’m saying to myself, “Am I actually going to be going to the show in October that I have tickets for?” And the answer is, “I don’t know.”

Jacobsen: Have you had any correspondence with any of the other leadership of the other secular organizations in New York? What have been the other concerns for them?

Engel: Not that much. I mean, it’s funny because John Rafferty suggested we do a panel with some of the other secular organizations in New York. I’ve gotten in touch with Gotham Atheists quite a bit. We’re all just trying to feel our way back into our live events. We always used to do, once a month, a Sunday brunch and conversation at a local restaurant. Last Sunday, a week ago, we had our first one that we’ve had in a year and a half. We had pretty decent attendance, we had somewhere between 20 and 25 people, so that went pretty well. We’re planning to do it again in August, we just hope that we’ll be able to. That’s basically what’s going on. Everyone’s taking tentative baby steps toward beginning to open up, looking and seeing what’s happening. Of course, the issues are still there, the issues are for us: separation of church and state, being one of the most important, recognizing the right to be secular, and also believing in science and not in dogma. This is really tough in this country and it’s come out a lot in the COVID issues. Here we are, the richest country in the world, vaccines are available for every single person in this country, not a problem, you can get it easily. Yet, we’re only at maybe 15% vaccinated, which is absolutely frightening, and a lot of it has to do with religion and religious beliefs. I read an article in The Times yesterday — and by the way, one of these days we’ll talk about Staten Island, Staten Island is the weirdest of the New York City boroughs by a large margin — there’s a story, and because it’s also a mostly politically conservative borough, whereas all the rest of boroughs in Manhattan are very politically liberal. I mean Trump only got 30% of New York City vote in 2020, but almost all of that came from Staten Island. Here’s a guy who actually works swabbing people at a testing site, who has not been vaccinated in Staten Island, he’s not vaccinated, he said, “I need more results. If the FDA is still studying it, that means it’s a conversation. Until it’s 100%, you don’t have my vote. I believe in Jesus, I pray a lot. I’m going with that.” This is still New York City. I know it’s Staten Island, but it’s still New York City. If that’s what it’s like here, what do you think it’s like in the Bible Belt, in Arkansas and Tennessee where their infections are exploding? We live in this society where it’s taboo to say, “That person’s religious beliefs are hurting him and his community.” It’s absolutely taboo… I’ll say it, I don’t care. For any person who is a person of influence, an elected official or whatever, that type of talk, although it is patently true, is still taboo. Again, that’s the religiosity of the United States and the American people is another thing holding us back from our recovery from COVID.

Jacobsen: Jon, as always, thank you so much.

Engel: Oh, it’s a pleasure, stay cool!

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Dr. P.B. 5: Permissive Tax Exemptions

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/08/04

Dr. Teale Phelps Bondaroff has been a community organizer for more than 15 years. He has been active in Saanich municipal politics. He earned a PhD in Politics and International Studies from the University of Cambridge and two BAs from the University of Calgary in Political Science and International Relations, respectively. He is a Board Member of the Greater Victoria Placemaking Network. He owns and operates a research consultancy called The Idea Tree. He is a New Democrat, politically, and is the President of the Saanich-Gulf Islands NDP riding association. He founded OceansAsia as a marine conservation organization devoted to combating illegal fishing and wildlife crime. Here we talk about taxation and its context around places of worship and permissive tax exemptions.

— 

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: The first issue: Why do people need to care about taxes more than they are at the moment?

Dr. Teale Phelps Bondaroff: That’s an interesting question. I think the theme that underlies our entire report [A Public Good? Property Tax Exemptions for Places of Worship in British Columbia] is that it is important that government be responsible with our taxes. So, we always care about governments having equitable, fair, reasonable, and responsible policies that pertain to our taxes.

This is one of the issues that exists around the topic covered in the report – specifically tax exemptions being granted to places of worship.  For every penny that’s not collected by the government as a result of such exemptions, represents money that the government needs to find elsewhere, and that vey often falls on the taxpayers. So, if you have municipalities giving out hundreds of thousands of dollars in tax exemptions, they need money to balance their books. It needs to come from somewhere else, and that somewhere else tends to be the pockets of taxpayers.

Jacobsen: Yet, I can hear commentary now. So, what’s the big deal with taxing churches or places of worship? Why should this be a thing? Is it that big of a deal? What’s the dollar value we’re looking at here?

Phelps Bondaroff: A couple of summers ago, our research teams started looking into tax exemptions for places of worship in BC. It is a good idea to start with some explanation about what we are talking about here. First, there are two kinds of tax exemptions that are offered to places of worship in British Columbia:

1) Statutory tax exceptions are exemptions that are automatically granted to places of worship. These are granted exclusively to the place of worship itself – to the building itself.

2) Permissive tax exemptions are tax exemptions that can be granted to a place of worship by a municipality. These cover all of the property around the specific place of worship, and any improvements. For example a parking lot, out buildings, that kind of thing.

While a place of worship received a statutory tax exemption automatically, permissive tax exemptions can be granted by a municipality, and municipalities have a diversity of policies across the province. Some municipalities will grant permissive tax exemptions [PTEs] automatically. Some municipalities will grant them with benefits tests or on the basis of some set of criteria or requirements.

When we ran the numbers, we determined that municipalities gave out $12.2 million in permissive tax exemption in 2019. When it comes to statutory tax exemptions [STEs], we used a different set of numbers as reported by the CRA. We determined that the value of statutory exemptions in 2019 amounted to $45.9 million for places of worship.

I’m always trying to be careful with my language here because these exemptions are granted as a cash grant. They’re a grant, basically. But no money is being given, however, the state is declining to collect a potential debt it would otherwise be owed. The language used when discussing this can be challenging and we try to be very clear about what we are talking about.  We are in essence talking about values of money the state is not collecting.

Let me briefly outline how we calculated these numbers.

For permissive tax exemptions, our research team went through the annual reports of every single municipality in BC, all 162 of them. Most municipalities report on whether they have tax exemptions and the value of exemptions they grant. Some provide a total number, while others will disaggregate the data by recipient.

With respect to statutory tax exemptions, we had to go through a slightly more complicated process. The full process is outlined on page seven of the report. Basically, we got data from CRA, data on aggregate property values, for all properties classified as churches and Bible schools under Code 652. Then we ran some math, determine the value of those properties and how much taxes those properties were anticipated to pay, if there were to pay taxes.

Jacobsen: What does that translate into in a township with an equivalent project or thing they could do with that kind of money?

Phelps Bondaroff: It depends from municipality to municipality. In our report, we break it down by municipality. But if you average out the value out the value of both tax exemptions [in 2019], it works out to twelve dollars per British Columbian. So, twelve dollars of taxes are going to support places of worship in your community. But it does vary considerably.

For example, the municipality with the highest estimated value of statutory tax exemptions is the City of Vancouver. They are not collecting, an estimated $8.8 million dollars. That is quite high.

When you break it down on a per capita basis, the highest per capita tax exemptions to places of worship was the city of Powell River, with thirty-three dollars per capita allocated to statutory tax exemptions.

Jacobsen: Was it $45.9 million?

Phelps Bondaroff: Yes, that is the total value that we calculate for STEs.

The numbers are quite high in some municipalities. For example, the city of Delta allocated $1.3 million in PTE’s in 2019. The highest, on a per capita basis, was the village of Grand Isle, which granted twenty dollars per capita in PTEs.

You can see how these become significant percentages of municipality budgets. Some municipalities recognize this and have passed bylaws limiting size of permissive tax exemptions to a specific percentage of their budget. This was necessary, because the size of PTEs in some instances was creeping up to over one or two percent of municipal budgets. And that means that a significant amount of that municipality’s budget is going to permissive tax exemptions for places of worship. I should note that we’re not talking about other places, other recipients of tax exemptions, which can include things like hospitals, schools, charities, and so on.

Jacobsen: Let’s go with the definition of a place of worship within British Columbia or even within Canada as a whole. What is the definition there? How are nonreligious groups not necessarily getting the same break?

Phelps Bondaroff: That’s a good question. Canada doesn’t have a definition of what constitutes a religion. There isn’t a firm definition, and there is good reason for this. Quite simply, it is very difficult to pin down what religion is and often a lot of biases come into effect.

Religion is often seen as having a holy book, or having a god or gods, or it is some kind of organized faith tradition. Any kind of definition that could be come up with, we could likely imagine a group that we might consider a religion that would be excluded by from that definition. For example, there was a case recently [The Church of Atheism of Central Canada vs. CRA]. In this case, the judge ruled against the person who was challenging CRA regulations around tax exemptions for churches/places of worship. While I won’t get into the specifics, one thing that was salient was that the judge did note that under the definition they were using, the definition of CRA at that time, Buddhism wouldn’t be considered a religion.

Definitions tend to be based on ‘conventional’ Judeo-Christian interpretations – for lack of a better term – of what constitutes religion. However, this does mean that a lot of new religious movements, or less mainstream religious groups, may be excluded from such a definition.

So to return to your question, what we find is that places of worship are being treated differently than non-places of worship. I’ll give an example: The way that the tax exemptions work in British Columbia, the Community Charter says that places of worship will be granted a permissive tax exemption in perpetuity, whereas other recipients receive a PTE for 10 years. So in this sense, places of worship are being treated differently than other applicants.

Here’s another way in which different tax exemption recipients are treated differently. The reason we give out permissive tax exemptions is to support organizations that are providing a public benefit. This makes sense. Take an organization like the Boys and Girls Club, or a local service club – if they needed to pay $20,000 in property taxes a year, a significant percentage of their income, budget, and time might be used to raise money to pay for these taxes, rather than supporting the services that the club provides to the public. If one of these service organizations can demonstrate they are providing a benefit to the community as a whole, then it makes sense that a municipality would waive these taxes, as doing so would support that organization’s efforts to provide a benefit to community members.

But with the places of worship, with the way the laws are written, there’s an assumption that they’re providing a benefit, but this may not necessarily be the case.  

We can see this reflected in elements of bylaws and the law as they relate to duration. As I mentioned, places of worship are granted the permissive tax exemption in perpetuity, as opposed to others, who receive them for a limited time.

This is a problem, because without the need to re-apply, it’s possible that an organization could change its practices and no longer engage in practices that are in line with the goals of the municipality. Asking recipients of permissive tax exemptions to regularly re-apply and to pass a benefits test is another check and balance on how tax dollars are being spent, and one that is very reasonable.

Without a regular application process, there’s no way of knowing that the recipient will continue to provide a benefit to the community.

Now, I’m not saying that there should be an application every year, but it is not unreasonable to ask that a recipient of generous tax exemptions demonstrate their ongoing benefit to the community at large on a regular basis.

All of this differential treatment is a problem. It certainly violates the state’s duty of religious neutrality. To assume that one recipient benefits the community, while another must apply and demonstrate a benefit, is not fair treatment.

I wanted to talk briefly as to why checks like benefits tests are necessary. The reason why you need checks benefits tests, is that the assumption that places of worship necessarily provide a public benefit is not always the case.

When we look through different tax exemption recipients, and in particular places of worship, we found that some of them are operating as private clubs. What that means is that they are only catering to their parishioners or co-religionists – they are not inviting members of the public to participate. If this is the case, then they aren’t benefiting the public. They’re only benefiting their members.

Permissive tax exemptions are designed to support organizations that provide a benefit to the public. If you are operating a private club, then you should not be receiving a permissive tax exemption.

We also found that recipients were delivering ‘contingent services,’ by which I mean that you only get the service they provide – like a soup kitchen or shelter for the night – if you participate in their religious practices.

Here’s an example: We found an Anglican Church [in Parksville] that for a while was running a ‘Pray and Stay’ program, where people who were experiencing homelessness could spend the night in their church, after the city declined to build the shelter. However, people would have to participate in a religious service before they were able to get shelter. So the Church is offering help, but there are strings attached.

We need to ask the question, should the state be subsidizing a private organization that is engaging in an activity that is advertising and proselytizing and promoting the organization? This again violates the state’s duty religious neutrality. It is also not benefiting members of the public, because not all members of the public benefit from the service, because not all of them can participate in the religious service for a host of reasons. Maybe they’re non-believers, maybe they have a different religion. A service is not available to the public if accessing that service is contingent upon the participation in a religious practice.

Some religious groups, and the services they provide, are not accessible to the public for other reasons, notably because they are insular. For example, if you want to be a member of the Exclusive Brethren (and the exclusivity is in the name), that’s fine. That’s your own personal choice. However, this is an organization that practices of ‘doctrine of separation,’ a doctrine that makes it necessary for members to insulate and isolate themselves from society at large as much as possible.

So, again, if a permissive tax exemption is designed to support the work of an organization that provides a benefit to the public, but the public can’t participate in these religious services or practices because they are exclusive to members, then it does not make sense for that organization to receive a tax exemption.

The Exclusive Brethren is a good example of an insular organization that is still receiving permissive tax exemptions but does not provide a benefit to the community at large. They don’t want to be a part of the public, part of the community, and, therefore, giving them tax exemptions that are intended to support an organization that provides benefit to public seems problematic, to say the least.

And numerous Exclusive Brethren places of worship receive permissive tax exemptions. For example, the Abbotsford Park View Gospel Hall received $4,400 in permissive tax exemptions and the West Richmond Gospel Hall in Richmond received $8,869 in tax exemptions in 2019. This is a significant amount of money going to an organization that doesn’t want to benefit the public.

There’s a side point that I thought I’d mention relating to religious participation, which is on the decline. As a result, municipalities may want to allocate tax dollars somewhere else. So, even assuming that some places of worship do benefit the public, and many do, it might be the case that the municipality has a limited amount of money that they’re able to allocate for tax exemptions, and they may want to allocate it in another way in order to maximize the benefit to the public.

Not only are some that these recipients acting as private clubs or are insular, but some are actively discriminating and excluding people. Some religious groups continue to discriminate against people on a number of bases. The [Canadian] Charter says that the government can’t discriminate on the basis of race, national origin, color, religion, sex, age, or physical ability. Consistent with this is the fact that the government can’t subsidize organizations that discriminate on these grounds either.

We know this because there are examples of the federal government stepping up not funding organizations that violate certain human rights. For example, with the Canada Summer Jobs Grant, the government said “We won’t fund organizations that oppose a woman’s right to choose. Why? Because that’s a fundamental right, and we as a government can’t oppose such a fundamental right because of the Charter.”

If you extend that logic to places of worship that discriminate, then if a place of worship discriminates, they should not receive a permissive tax exemption, or statutory tax exemption, for that matter. They should not be receiving a subsidy from the state.

There are, unfortunately, examples of a place of worship that discriminate. For example, and we explore this in more detail in the report, there was a gay couple that tried to book the Knights of Columbus Hall in the City of Coquitlam. The Knights of Columbus didn’t realize that they were a lesbian couple, and the two women didn’t realize the Knights of Columbus were a Catholic organization.

When the Knights found out that the couple were both women, they cancel the booking and refunded them their booking fee or deposit. The couple took the Knights to court and the case went back and forth. Eventually, the court ruled that the Knights had the right to discriminate against these two women, but also required the Knights to pay compensation because the couple had incurred a significant cost having to reprint of their wedding invitation.

One thing that was interesting about this case was that the Archdiocese of Vancouver, which operated the Hall, and is a Catholic organization, didn’t argue that they did not discriminate. Rather, they argued they had a right to discriminate, in essence declaring, “Yes, we discriminate.” So they are fully committed to discriminating, and as a private entity, they have the right to discriminate in this way.

But then we have a City money to the Archdiocese of Vancouver, which has five properties in Coquitlam. At the time, those five properties, received around $72,000 in permissive tax exemptions in 2004, and in 2005, they received about $75,000 in permissive tax exemptions. What we then have is, in essence, the City of Coquitlam subsidizing places of worship that are overtly discriminatory. That’s a problem.

This is another issue that we wanted to raise with our report, which is the state should not be subsidizing discriminatory activities, either directly or indirectly, through state tax exemptions.

And then there are places of worship that are overtly violating COVID health regulations. There were recently a bunch of places of worship challenging the provincial health regulations in court, and a number of these places of worship have received tax exemptions. What this is then, is the state subsidizing organizations that are endangering lives during a pandemic.

Large religious gatherings in places of worship have been identified as potential super spreaders during the pandemic. There was one church in Korea that was responsible for 36% of all the cases in that country!

Places of worship are particularly susceptible as potential super spreaders because they’re enclosed spaces, with large groups of people in close proximity, meeting for a long duration time. During a religious service, people are talking, singing, and using masks inconsistently. Critically, you also have a large percentage of older folks, who are already at risk of COVID, participating in services.

And yet, there were a number of places of worship arguing for their right to endanger the lives of their congregations in court, all the while they were receiving tax exemptions. For example, in 2019, the Riverside Calvary Chapel received an $11,997 in permissive tax exemptions. They were twice fined for violating COVID regulations. Similarly, the Immanuel Covenant Reformed Church in Abbotsford, received $5,463 in permissive tax exemptions in 2019. The list of recipients who have also violated COVID regulations include the Oaklands Bible Chapel in Victoria.

If the goal of permissive tax exemptions is to support the work of organizations that provide a benefit to the public, it is not in the public’s interest (or benefit) to support private clubs, or organizations that are discriminatory, or to support organizations that overtly undermine public health by violating health orders during a pandemic.

There is a good solution to the issues of permissive tax exemptions that I’ve mentioned.  The BCHA is encouraging municipalities to adopt public benefits tests, such that only grant tax exemptions to recipients who provide a benefit to the public. A good benefits test would, among other things, include questions about whether the recipient operates as a private club, or discriminates, or violates health orders and other laws.

We want to make sure that municipalities have been responsible with tax dollars. Statutory tax exemptions are applied automatically, which means that municipalities don’t have a say in them. That’s significant, as these taxes encroach on a municipalities ability to make choices about their community – to have a say in how they raise funds, and even the size of tax exemptions, that is the percentage of the overall budget that is allocated to tax exemptions,

Many municipalities will, when given the choice with PTEs, cap the size of tax exemptions that they grant. For example, the City of Victoria, property tax exemptions can be no more than 1.6% of their budget. That’s the cap. That’s a lot of money. In 2019, PTEs amounted to $640,554 in Victoria.

This is ultimately a question of government autonomy. The automatic nature of STEs strips municipalities of autonomy, of the ability to make choices about how they collect and allocate taxes. Municipalities are in the best position to make decisions about how to best benefit their communities, but automatically applied STEs do not give municipalities the opportunity to decide how best to levy and spend taxes.   

I would be remiss if I did not mention commercial operations. When we were doing the research for this report, we found a couple of examples of places of worship that were operating commercial operations. These tended to be things like for-profit parking garages. In these situations, you have a place of worship that’s receiving a tax exemption, but they’re running a business and shouldn’t be receiving such an exemption. After all, the exemptions are designed to support not for profit organizations, not commercial operations.

That’s another example where a good benefits test will serve as a way of catching potential recipients who are operating. We always recommend a benefits test would, including a question that asks something like “are you running a commercial operation? Show us your books or, at least, outline some of your budget, so we know how you operate.”

If folks are interested in learning more, or seeing the scale of permissive and statutory tax exemptions in their municipalities, I would encourage them to read the full ‘A Public Good?’ report. Thanks for chatting.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Dr. Phelps Bondaroff.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Takudzwa 33: 2020/2021, Bala, and Zimbabwean Humanists

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/09/08

Takudzwa Mazwienduna is the informal leader of Zimbabwean Secular Alliance and a member of the Humanist Society of Zimbabwe. This educational series will explore secularism in Zimbabwe from an organizational perspectiveand more.

Here we talk about developments for secularism in Zimbabwe in 2020/2021, Mubarak Bala, and Zimbabwean humanists.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What have been the developments in 2020/2021 for secularism in Zimbabwe?

Takudzwa Mazwienduna: 2020 and 2021 have been difficult years for secularism in Zimbabwe. The African Apostolic Church is a denomination of fundamentalist Christianity that has the majority of rural Zimbabweans who are 70% of the population. They forbid members to get medical help and discourage scientific medicine in favor of prayers from their leaders. They also conduct child marriages with 11 to 14 year old brides getting married into polygamous marriages every year. The worst part is that they are the ruling party ZANU PF’s biggest support base and so they get endorsed by the government, especially during election time and that’s the biggest threat to Zimbabwean secularism.

Jacobsen: What is the growth of the Nones — the atheists, agnostics, and nothing in particulars — in Zimbabwe in 2020/2021?

Mazwienduna: The Zimbabwean secular community continues to grow steadily, with more people joining our online forums every year.

Jacobsen: How are Zimbabwean humanists viewing the case of Mubarak Bala?

Mazwienduna: Zimbabwean Humanists and Atheists are enraged by his arbitrary arrests. They also feel the frustration and helplessness of not being able to do something about it.

Jacobsen: What are some similar cases — less prominent — happening with Zimbabwean humanists as we speak?

Mazwienduna: Fortunately, there are no cases of Humanists getting persecuted or censored in Zimbabwe thanks to our country’s secular law. The only case that poses a threat to secularism is the government’s support for and association with the fundamentalist African Apostolic Church.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Takudzwa.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Mandisa 70: Celebration and a Growth Mindset

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/08/25

Mandisa Thomas, a native of New York City, is the founder and President of Black Nonbelievers, Inc. Although never formally indoctrinated into belief, Mandisa was heavily exposed to Christianity, Black Nationalism, and Islam. As a child she loved reading, and enjoyed various tales of Gods from different cultures, including Greek and Ghanaian. “Through reading these stories and being taught about other cultures at an early age, I quickly noticed that there were similarities and differences between those deities and the God of the Christian Bible. I couldn’t help but wonder what made this God so special that he warrants such prevalence today,” she recalls.

Here we talk about a growth mindset, in 2020.

*This was conducted December 14, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, this is an Nth to the Nth Power interview with Mandisa Thomas. So, when are we talking about just ordinary facts of organizational life, people come and go. You run out of supplies, certain things. People need to maintain their talents and skills. Organizations go through fluctuations, in other words. So, what are some things that you’ve learned? Coming up on your tenth anniversary, what are some of the things that you’ve noticed both in the negative, in terms of upkeep of an organization, and in terms of the positive, in terms of seeing that growth trajectory, regardless?

Mandisa Thomas: Yes. So, BN is approaching 10 years as an organization. And wow – it is exhilarating, but also exhausting, because there is a lot of work that goes into running an organization that centers around practical engagement. And when dealing with a community that prides itself on being so intellectual, the organizing and support aspects tend to be overlooked, and even outright ignored. However, a really good part of being in this community, is the people. It’s has also been a great learning journey with fine tuning my people skills. I already have extensive customer service experience, and when I realized that the same principles apply, it wasn’t too hard.

Now, from a nonprofit standpoint, it was definitely a learning lesson for me. Having worked at the CDC (which is a government agency) in addition to my customer service background, I was able to parlay both of those experiences into developing the organization. The challenge after that is maintaining it, and trying to retain dedicated organizers and members. We have people who are initially excited, and are ready to jump in and get involved. But once that excitement wears off which has been the case for quite a few people, then who is left to keep it going? So it can be a challenge at times; for those of us who are bit seasoned as organizers, and who are used to dealing with both the general public and also working on the back end. It can be a challenge for us in dealing with people who don’t have that experience, as well as training them on how to work with us. But overall it really shows, as you said before in our chat; endurance, and long-term commitment.

Jacobsen: Do you think part of that is a growth mindset in the idea that who you are, and what is, are always provisional and, therefore, can be changed, improved, according to context?

Mandisa: Oh, absolutely. Because we’re in a community where change is inevitable, and should be embraced. And in order for our community to grow, we have to know how to engage with people on certain issues, and also just on a basic human level. And there should always room for us to grow as individuals with our connections, however it also teaches you how to set boundaries. You learn who is in it for good reasons and who is not. community-minded reasons. And staying strong and healthy is important for running the organization, where much of the work is on a volunteer basis. And you have to love it in order to do it. I didn’t realize how life-changing my involvement would become. However, I’ve embraced it, and I’m glad I did, because it has helped so many other people.

Jacobsen: What are some other qualities that you keep in mind of a person?

Thomas: Charisma is an important quality to me. I do think that people, especially potential organizers, should be personable in order to engage in this movement. You also have to know how to work with people, and work with them as a team. I am also a person who likes to be exact and punctual, and prefer to work with people who will meet me at least halfway. Those are also qualities/characteristics that I think make a good leader.

Also, I look for reciprocity. I like people who aren’t all about themselves, that they’re doing this work and helping people because it’s the right thing to do. Not because they’re not looking to gain anything significantly over anyone else. Their actions usually match their words, and they tend to go above and beyond as well.

Jacobsen: Mandisa, thank you so much for your time, as usual.

Mandisa: Thank you.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Mandisa 69: No Higher-Order Reliance

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/08/22

Mandisa Thomas, a native of New York City, is the founder and President of Black Nonbelievers, Inc. Although never formally indoctrinated into belief, Mandisa was heavily exposed to Christianity, Black Nationalism, and Islam. As a child she loved reading, and enjoyed various tales of Gods from different cultures, including Greek and Ghanaian. “Through reading these stories and being taught about other cultures at an early age, I quickly noticed that there were similarities and differences between those deities and the God of the Christian Bible. I couldn’t help but wonder what made this God so special that he warrants such prevalence today,” she recalls.

Here we talk about personal issues and realistic dealing with them, in 2020.

*This was conducted November 16, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, you took a trip to New York. You went to kind of deal with some personal issues. And one of the things that are important about the way you are living your new life is one in which you’re just taking the moments as they are, owning them, and then dealing with them head on, as opposed to kind of a lot of North Americans, which is referring to some higher order power to just offset any of their troubles, to keep it off their mind. In other words, they don’t deal with it. So, what are the things you were dealing with in New York in more general terms? How are you dealing with those head on?

Mandisa Thomas: Yes, I was asked by one of my aunts to accompany her for a visit with my mother (her sister), after one of their brothers recently passed away. Apparently at the funeral, my mother approached my aunt, gave her a hug, said she was sorry and finally invited my aunt over to her house. Now, this is significant because there has been a 30-year “feud” between them, mostly on behalf of my mother to work. And so while my aunt was pleasantly surprised by this, she wanted said invitation to be a sit down so that she could ask my mother some questions, and possibly iron out their differences. The main questions being, what exactly is she sorry for, and why did she feel all of this hatred towards her sister for all these years? Since this aunt and I are very close and remained so against my mother’s wishes, She reminded me that I promised to accompany her if that moment of reckoning ever came.

When she brought that up, I asked myself, did I REALLY agreed to this??? But I decide to go through with it. We scheduled this past weekend because that was my best availability. In addition to supporting my aunt, this trip gave me an opportunity to see how I would interact with my mother after all of the work that I have done for myself to overcome the trauma that I endured growing up. Finally, I wanted to see, along with my aunt, if my mother would take responsibility for the mistreatment. Because for years, she has blamed my aunt for the bad relationship between her and I, and we wanted to se if she would own up to any of it.

So, this was a good way to help my aunt get closure. And if there was also an opportunity for them to rebound as sisters, that was even better. I also had a chance hone my leadership skills, and be there as somewhat a neutral party as a mediator. I wasn’t there to bringing my issues with my mother to the forefront, because I wasn’t there for me; I was there for my aunt. So, it was a good opportunity to see if there was truly some change on all of our parts, demonstrate how I’ve been able to move forward in my life, and also how I can help my aunt and other family members.

Jacobsen: And nowhere in the explanation there did you point to a higher order power. You didn’t pray, you didn’t reference some God concept to kind of get you out of it. How do you notice this in the membership, Black Nonbelievers? And we’ve talked about issues of people bringing patriarchal ideas from the religious traditions as attitudes and expectations into Black Nonbelievers. What about the more subtle and soft areas of emotional life that can be tender, hard to get through as you’re going through right now? What do you notice and others who are going through similar circumstances, when they’re still bringing those kind of religious sensibilities into community?

Thomas: What’s happening is there are simply too many people refusing to do that work and take accountability for their actions. Even among many nonbelievers, somehow all of their problems are someone else’s fault. This tends to go hand in hand with religious indoctrination, where there is little to no resolution for that sort of trauma. One of the reasons why I organize around the support aspect and what people go through personally is because, these institutions shape our outlook. They shape our actions. And trying to recover from them is a LOT of work.

So, it can be a challenge for people to recognize when they are projecting and avoiding accountability. And it is hard for many to say, “I was wrong. I acknowledge that I played a part in this,” because it can be seen as a sign of weakness. But I was actually learned at an early age that this was something that I needed to change; that I had to be the one to do it (with the help of me peers and licensed professionals). But this not an example that was set by my mother. She was quick to tell me and my brothers to take responsibility for our actions, but didn’t do it herself.  So as an adult with a family, and still overcoming childhood trauma while taking responsibility, I strongly advocate for all parties in any disagreements to do the same. I don’t sit on a pedestal trying to preach to someone about what they should do. I try to help because I’ve been through it. And I’m still going through it, so that peer to peer experience does help.

And again, we don’t encourage looking to divine intervention, because it’s never that simple. Constantly looking to a god, and projecting and placing the blame onto someone else leads to a vicious cycle, and nothing gets better. But when you actually confront the issues head on, get help through other people and other clinical means, it is much more meaningful and rewarding. 

And that once you accomplish that, it it hard to go back to accepting the harmful actions of others. I know that my own patience with people like that is now extremely short. You are allowed to remove people from your life who will not do that work, and are not trying to make things better. And sometimes, that can be very difficult. But once you discard the notion that god will heal and put the people in place to do that work, you can actually make sufficient changes to improve your life, and also the lives of people around you.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Mandisa 68: Religious Carryover Into Secular Community

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/08/20

Mandisa Thomas, a native of New York City, is the founder and President of Black Nonbelievers, Inc. Although never formally indoctrinated into belief, Mandisa was heavily exposed to Christianity, Black Nationalism, and Islam. As a child she loved reading, and enjoyed various tales of Gods from different cultures, including Greek and Ghanaian. “Through reading these stories and being taught about other cultures at an early age, I quickly noticed that there were similarities and differences between those deities and the God of the Christian Bible. I couldn’t help but wonder what made this God so special that he warrants such prevalence today,” she recalls.

Here we talk about religious identities and privileges brought into the secular communities from those who have left religion in 2020.

*This was conducted October 19, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Ok, so, let’s focus today on difficulties, personal and professional, individuals or organizations, who have not invested in you or your own organization hoping to get some kind of support, financial, media, volunteer, expertise, you name it. Yet, they have had no history prior to that of helping you in any way. I think that’s a really powerful topic. So, you can relate personal experiences if you want, or you can simply speak in general terms. What are the feelings that come up? What do you do? How do you sort boundaries if you need them?

Mandisa Thomas: There is a certain expectation for people to ask for help when establishing a community-based organization. And even though BN provides mostly networking and peer support, because we are a nonprofit, there are opportunities for people to get involved and volunteer. And it’s definitely important to donate so that we can expand our resources. However, because we are an organization that focuses on black people, we get a lot of folks coming from religious backgrounds, still maintaining a religious mindset and a patriarchal mindset, which leaves us at an imbalance of working harder to sustain ourselves.

Recently, I had an experience with someone who is coming out of religious leadership as a pastor. They are still trying to keep their pastor’s status, but now in the secular community. They have never financially contributed to us (though they do have their own source of income), yet they’re looking to the organization – me in particular – to boost their profile for their own personal gain. And this has always been very difficult and exhausting, because we often have to do deal with people who ask for more than what we can provide and definitely more than what they’ve invested in us. And I completely understand that everyone isn’t able to contribute financially. But what needs to known is that in order for us to provide these resources and support, we also need it in return. And even the smallest financial donations help a lot. Also, we often ask for our members who have benefitted from us to give back so that we can continue to help others in the same way. In fact, that’s how many organizations frame their fundraising efforts. It can be a tough because again, we want to provide that support. But we must also consider some individuals’ motivations and their intentions carefully.

Jacobsen: What about if it’s hard to discern that motivation?

Thomas: Sometimes, it can be difficult because the approaches are very subtle. It starts with those individuals asking how can they help, and say what they think are the right things. But I discern by actions, or lack thereof. If people are constantly asking this question with no follow up, that is a red flag. Also, when people lead with the “how can I be ‘put on'” questions, and requiring all of the labor from you, that is suspicious as well.

And, I feel bad at times, because again, we want to help as many people as possible. However, it is necessary, but as someone in leadership full time, we have to eliminate those who don’t have the best intentions. There are a lot of things that we can take from the religious community when it comes to engagement, but something that we can do differently is set important boundaries and limits. We can be as welcoming as possible, but if people are not reciprocating, and adding more to your workload than absolutely necessary, then letting them go is the right decision.

Jacobsen: When people give up the God concept, especially as traditionally defined, they’re giving up a supernatural helper that leaves them vulnerable to other influences. But it also can empower them if they take that responsibility on board. But by taking on the responsibility, they have all that extra uncertainty too. Do you think that might be both a loss and a strength of the secular communities when that happens? So, they give up the magical thinking, the childish thinking, and the ‘support’ that didn’t really support while having to take on that extra responsibility individually to gain that experience, and trust their kinds of observation and critical thinking skills, for people to discern those who have good motivations. Those who don’t, and where mutual benefit might lie in the one that’s reaching out for some kind of support.

Thomas: Indeed, there are many people who leave religion, yet still carry that with notion of divine intervention with them. And as a result, they still look for others to solve their problems, instead of either doing it for themselves, or even meeting people halfway. On the flip side, compels some to feel as if they have to be one leading people to that “promised land” and therefore, being a god themselves. It’s unfortunate, because it is a byproduct of the conditioning, and there are certainly those who don’t want to let that go. And I think the secular community sometimes models this unintentionally; when it comes to having “holy” figures who are incapable of being and doing any wrong. Or there’s still very little accountability for these individuals. We have indeed come a long way with correcting that, but we still have a long way to go. Also, it’s an learning/unlearning and healing process for people overcoming religious trauma. Which can be hard, but carrying that baggage can actually be harmful to others.

So, it’s important that we offer a caring and nurturing environment, while also holding people accountable to work on themselves. There are no magic solutions; it takes work. The most important thing is to let those people know that they have support, and that they don’t need to go at it alone. 

Jacobsen: Mandisa, thank you so much for your time today.

Thomas: Thank you.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Mandisa 67: Symbols and Systems

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/08/18

Mandisa Thomas, a native of New York City, is the founder and President of Black Nonbelievers, Inc. Although never formally indoctrinated into belief, Mandisa was heavily exposed to Christianity, Black Nationalism, and Islam. As a child she loved reading, and enjoyed various tales of Gods from different cultures, including Greek and Ghanaian. “Through reading these stories and being taught about other cultures at an early age, I quickly noticed that there were similarities and differences between those deities and the God of the Christian Bible. I couldn’t help but wonder what made this God so special that he warrants such prevalence today,” she recalls.

Here we talk about symbols, systems, and controversy in 2020.

*This was conducted July 6, 2020.*

Scott Jacobsen: So, you came across a quote. So, I will give a colloquial backing of that. I will let you do the proper quoting of it. So, I mean, the issue in America is landmarks are being defaced, taken down. But there are different issues, more substantive, fundamental issues rather than symbolic to be addressed. So, what was the quote? What’s the context? And why is that distinction between the symbolism as opposed to the socioeconomics infrastructure important?

Mandisa Thomas: Yes, I’m looking at it on Twitter now. It says, “We are moving racist symbols, but we aren’t asking to remove a racist system. We are not having the conversation right now.” This is significant because there are now a number of companies that are signing on to the Black Lives Matter campaign. They’re looking to make changes that shows that they care about the black community, and show that they are listening to the demands that are being made – all across the country, and around the world. We are witnessing symbols and monuments to racism being removed; for example, the University of Pennsylvania has taken steps to remove the statue of George Whitfield, an evangelical, pro slavery minister. So, there is now a lot of reconsideration about these symbols, especially in the United States, that are reflective of oppression the black community.

Now, while this is a start, it also doesn’t address the fact that the racist institutions that those people are responsible for are still in place. There is still a severe imbalance of power in place against the black community, and it is going to take time to rectify that. It seems like removing symbols is a quick fix; putting a band-aid on a problem that has been long-standing and the solution has not provided in full.

Jacobsen: Now, if we dig a bit deeper, especially within the American context, where Black Lives Matter was started by three black women and where the majority of the protests are ongoing. There are issues of people simply taking a symbolic approach. On the one hand, you have people who are socio-politically left. They’re tearing down or questioning tearing down or defacing statues of Teddy Roosevelt or something like this, then that gives an excuse to not always, but typically, more regressive forces on the sociopolitical right who then will say, “Okay, if you can do that to someone we revere, we will do that to someone you revere.” Then there’s a tearing down of, recently, a statue of the abolitionist and women’s rights activist, former slave, the late Frederick Douglass. So, if we’re digging deeper into this issue, taking a bigger bite out of it, what’s the importance of making sure everyone is clear that we’re focusing on these less visible, non-landmark structural issues?

Thomas: Of course, whenever there’s an action, there’s a reaction. Many people, mostly Americans who are not as well informed about the history, will take offense and look to retaliate. So they start thinking, “Well, maybe WE can take down black statues!” So, the fear kicks in, and unfortunately we’re still dealing with people who are reactive when it comes to history and heritage. And the example of Frederick Douglass, who was an abolitionist as you said, is hardly the in the same category, because worked with a number of anti-slavery organizations.So, monuments to Douglass don’t deserve to be torn down, because he was not responsible for any oppressive regimes. But what I think those people are really scared of is the fact that they need to be honest with themselves about the issues at hand, which are correcting racist policies, and socio-economic conditions. There were a lot of black folks, who lost their lives and livelihoods at the hands of the American system. So, on the surface, while people are looking at things like the current administration, we see those particular statements made on Twitter, and we take those into account. Whether we laugh or get outraged, it is important that we are not completely distracted by said administration. These things can be worked on simultaneously. Digging deeper at the roots and attacking them will be a lot for work, but it is necessary.

Jacobsen: Mandisa for our millionth conversation, thank you so, so much.

Thomas: Thank you.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 10: The Human Rights Skyfall

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/08/17

Omar Shakir, J.D., M.A. works as the Israel and Palestine Director for Human Rights Watch. He investigates a variety of human rights abuses within the occupied Palestinian territories/Occupied Palestinian Territories or oPt/OPT (Gaza and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem) and Israel. He earned a B.A. in International Relations from Stanford University, an M.A. in Arab Studies from Georgetown University’s School of Foreign Affairs, and a J.D. from Stanford Law School. He is bilingual in Arabic and English. Previously, he was a Bertha Fellow at the Center for Constitutional Rights with a focus on U.S. counterterrorism policies, which included legal representation of Guantanamo detainees. He was the Arthur R. and Barbara D. Finberg Fellow (2013-2014) for Human Rights Watch with investigations, during this time, into the human rights violations in Egypt, e.g., the Rab’a massacre, which is one of the largest killings of protestors in a single day ever. Also, he was a Fulbright Scholar in Syria.

Language of the oPt/OPT is recognized in the work of the OHCHRAmnesty InternationalOxfam InternationalUnited NationsWorld Health OrganizationInternational Labor OrganizationUNRWAUNCTAD, and so on. Some see the Israeli-Palestinian issue as purely about religion. Thus, this matters to freethought. These ongoing interviews explore this issue in more depth.

Here we continue with the 10th part in our series of conversations with coverage in the middle of middle of July, 2020, to the middle of September, 2020, for the Israeli-Palestinian issue. With the deportation of Shakir, this follows in line with state actions against others, including Amnesty International staff member Laith Abu Zeyad when attempting to see his mother dying from cancer (Amnesty International, 2019; Zeyad, 2019; Amnesty International, 2020), United States Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib and United States Congresswoman Ilhan Omar who were subject to being barred from entry (Romo, 2019), Professor Noam Chomsky who was denied entry (Hass, 2010), and Dr. Norman Finkelstein who was deported in the past (Silverstein, 2008). Shakir commented in an opinion piece:

Over the past decade, authorities have barred from entry MIT professor Noam Chomsky, U.N. special rapporteurs Richard Falk and Michael Lynk, Nobel Peace Prize winner Mairead Maguire, U.S. human rights lawyers Vincent Warren and Katherine Franke, a delegation of European Parliament members, and leaders of 20 advocacy groups, among others, all over their advocacy around Israeli rights abuses. Israeli and Palestinian rights defenders have not been spared. Israeli officials have smearedobstructed and sometimes even brought criminal charges against them. (Shakir, 2019)

Now, based on the decision of the Israeli Supreme Court and the actions of the Member State of the United Nations, Israel, he, for this session and some prior sessions, works from Amman, Jordan. Originally, he worked from Tel Aviv, Israel.

*Interview conducted on September 25, 2020. The previous interview conducted on July 23, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: With regard to some of the activists, there were some issues regarding arbitrary arrests by the Hamas Authority in the use of the freedom of expression rights (Rasgon, 2020). What is the current status of the case? How did it escalate over time?

Omar Shakir: In early April, a group of Gaza activists engaged in a Zoom chat with Israeli citizens (United Nations Human Rights Council, 2020).[1] They were speaking about the situation in Gaza and some of the challenges they face. A few days after when news of this event became public in Gaza, there was some pushback on social media. Hamas authorities detained seven of the activists, who participated in that Zoom chat (Palestinian Centre for Human Rights, 2020). Several of the activists were released in a matter of days. Two have remained detained for over five months, as of this recording. The men were being held largely in this period in pre-trial detention facing interrogations. Last week, in around mid-September, Hamas authorities charged the two activists who were detained, as well as one who was released on bail, with a charge under the PLO’s revolution code, military law, for weakening the revolutionary spirit. This is a charge that Hamas authorities have used before as a way of detaining critics and opponents over their peaceful expression. The arrests of these activists and the ongoing detention of two of them is a part of Hamas’ practice of systematic detaining of individuals based on their peaceful free expression (Human Rights Watch, 2016; Human Rights Watch, 2018a; Harkov, 2011).

Jacobsen: Other larger news had to do with the Israel-United Arab Emirates normalization agreement (Keleman, 2020) or the Abraham Accords (Goldberg, 2020) peace agreement. How did this come about? How is this being discussed in some of the areas you’re covering?

Shakir: Israel has long had long relations with a number of Arab states, particularly in the Gulf. This agreement with the UAE makes the more secretive relationship public. It was marketed as a step in normalized relations in return for freezing annexation (U.S. Department of State: Bureau of Near East Affairs; Bowen, 2020; Fishere, 2020; Al-Jazeera, 2020a; Al-Jazeera, 2020b; Holland, & Spetalnick, 2020). Prime Minister Netanyahu immediately made clear that the deal is only a temporary pause on plans for annexing additional parts of the West Bank (Krauss, 2020). Of course, the UAE as well as Bahrain, who signed their own agreement with Israel, have had de facto relations with Israel, but, of course, much of their region – with the exception of Jordan and Egypt – had been part of a consensus to hold off on formally normalizing relations with Israel until there was an end to the occupation and a solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Obviously, this agreement broke that consensus. Of course, there are reports of additional agreements. On the ground, the impact has been limited. Annexation has been frequently raised by the Israeli government, but we have a reality where the Israeli government has been in control for over 50 years across the oPt, de facto annexing these areas, and exerting control (Human Rights Watch, 2017). Formal annexation would likely have meant little change on the ground, at least in the short-run. But for the Israeli government, it is a diplomatic achievement; in the sense, Prime Minister Netanyahu and his supporters can say, as opposed to previous agreements, that we were able to reach an agreement with an Arab state in the absence of having made any sorts of concessions or changes to their practices with regards to Palestinians on the ground.

Jacobsen: There is a Palestinian doctoral student in engineering who needs to leave from the Gaza Strip to Tel Aviv to receive a visa for a European state where he is meant to conduct research (Hass, 2020). The research would begin on October 1st. What are some of the difficulties around the case?

Shakir: Israel, for decades now, have kept sharp restrictions for travel on Palestinians in Gaza (Human Rights Watch, 2020a). For 13 years now, the Israeli government has maintained a closure on the Gaza Strip (Ibid.). The closure entails a generalized travel ban, which means, presumptively, Palestinians cannot leave Gaza through the Erez Crossing, their main crossing to the other point of the oPt, the West Bank, and abroad, unless they fall with a list of narrow humanitarian exceptions (Ibid.). Egypt has contributed to the closure with its own restrictions on its border crossing with Gaza. There is no formal exemption for students that are seeking to travel abroad. Sometimes, students manage with, say interventions of European embassies, to secure rarely issued permits. Sometimes, Palestinians leave by Egypt, who sometimes opens its crossing with Gaza (Human Rights Watch, 2017). But there are many instances where Palestinians are unable to leave and are delayed in starting semesters or missing it altogether. Human Rights Watch has documented cases of this sort. Israeli authorities bar Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank from using Ben Gurion Airport without a rarely issued permit from the Israeli army. The primary outlet for Palestinians to travel abroad is via Jordan. But to get there from Gaza, you need a permit to exit, as well as a Jordanian “No Objection” letter, which states that Jordan does not object to using their territory for transit. Of course, the closure has become even more restrictive with the pandemic. Whereas in 2019, travel via Erez was a small fraction, 1% to 3%, of what it was before the June 2007 tightening of the closure, we’ve seen, since March 2020, that fraction of a number reduced to a further fraction, 1% or 2% of before March 2020, which itself was 1% or 2% of 2000 (Gisha 2021a; Human Rights Watch, 2018b; Gisha, 2021b). The few that are being permitted to exit are those in need of urgent medical care and their companions, largely to go to East Jerusalem or to Ramallah, but almost none outside of that. This case is part of these larger restrictions on movement.

Jacobsen: What is the progress on the annexations as well as the building of further illegal settlements?

Shakir: In terms of annexation, as part of an agreement with the UAE, the Israeli government has put plans to formally annex additional parts of the West Bank on hold (al-Mughrabi & Williams, 2020; Miller, 2020). There have been media reports as to how long that hold will take place that vary from a few months to a few years (Landau & Reuters, 2020; Kaplan, 2020). But as of now, annexation doesn’t appear imminent. Certainly, we will wait until U.S. elections and potentially another round of Israeli elections. In terms of settlement expansion, that is, of course, a trend that has continued in 2020 (Shapiro, 2020). We saw in early 2020, in January and February, the government issue plans, issue tenders, as well as announce plans for a range of different settlements (ACAPS, 2020). The figures from the first two months of 2020 almost reached – in fact, exceeded in publishing tenders and advancing plans – all of the plans of 2019, according to the NGO Peace Now (Ibid.).[2] Israel continues to entrench its illegal settlement enterprise. Those plans have not stopped during the pandemic.

Jacobsen: There was or is an academic who specializes in human rights named Dr. Valentina Azarova (Bard College Dublin, 2021). This is more close to home for me in terms of the University of Toronto or in Canada. One of the leading institutions of higher learning and research. There are some reports that she was denied a job. There are other reports that the job was there and then it was an offer that was rescinded. Those have different implications in terms of how they’re framed (CAUT, 2020; MEE Staff, 2020; B’nai Brith Canada, 2020). The controversy appears to centre around the fact that Azarova was documenting human rights abuses by Israel as a state (Deif, 2020; Page, 2020). As well, apparently, she has a strong human rights law background and reputation. What is the status of this particular case? What seems to be the fact of the matter?

Shakir: For full disclosure, one of my colleagues at Human Rights Watch is a partner of the person in question. What the press reports appear to indicate, the University of Toronto withdrew, rescinded, an offer that was made to a scholar to take over the position of heading their international human rights clinic. They apparently did so at the behest of a donor who objected to the candidate’s scholarship, which included work on the Israeli government’s violations of international law (Gessen, 2021). If this is true, it, certainly, goes to the heart of the university’s integrity and the space for academic freedom. Human Rights Watch has worked with this program before (Ibid.). We’ve had a number of interns that were, in fact, coming from the university. We have partnered together with them on a number of projects. Certainly, this is something of significant concern to all of us who care about academic freedom, including those of us at Human Rights Watch. There have been significant letters of support on behalf of this scholar, including a letter with 1,200 signatures including current and former special rapporteurs. It is concerning to all of us. It is important to see that this is handled transparently, that there is accountability and that the university conduct an independent external review and make its findings public. Universities should stand guard against attacks on academic freedom and should not take part in silencing scholars. No one should pay a price for exposing human rights violations by any country, including Israel.

Jacobsen: Ahmad Erekat was killed at a checkpoint (Najah, 2020; Human Rights Watch, 2020b; Masri, 2020; Adalah, 2020). What happened at the checkpoint? Why is the family not able to bury him?

Shakir: Israel has a long track record of using excessive force in policing situations (Human Rights Watch, 2019a). Human Rights Watch investigated a particular instance that took place in late June of this year in which a Palestinian vehicle at a checkpoint in the West Bank, as it approached, sharply swerved into a booth, where several Israeli soldiers stood (Human Rights Watch, 2020b). An individual emerged from the car, unarmed and, as soon as he did and apparently not approaching the officers, he was fatally shot and killed (Ibid.). The Israeli government has characterized this as a car ramming attack (Patel, 2020). The family has denied that account and said that it was likely caused by a malfunction of the car or an accident (Ibid.). Human Rights Watch investigated the killing (Human Rights Watch, 2020b). We determined that, when he emerged from the vehicle, he did not pose a significant threat to the life of the officers, making the killing apparently unlawful. The Israeli government has not indicated that it is investigating the case. In fact, now, since the killing for a period of three months, the Israeli government has held the body (Ibid.). The Israeli government has held the bodies of Palestinians killed in what they consider security incidents. There was a lawsuit filed on behalf of the family requesting the body be returned for burial. The Israeli government in return announced a decision that they will be withholding the bodies of all Palestinians killed in security incidents, as a form of leverage to secure the bodies of two Israeli soldiers who, apparently, have been held by the Hamas authorities in Gaza, since they were presumed to be killed in the 2014 hostilities (AFP, 2020). A Palestinian human rights group says that about 67 bodies of Palestinians are being held by the Israeli government (B’tselem, 2019). Of course, withholding bodies marks a serious violation of international law, both the bodies of Israeli soldiers held by Hamas and those held by the Israeli government of Palestinians, including those who had involvement in any armed group (Al-Haq, 2018).

Jacobsen: What is the status of lockdowns with regards to Covid within Israel?

Shakir: The Israeli government had an initial lockdown that took place from about late March until May (Ayyub, 2020). The government, for most of the summer, largely opened up things inside Israel. They maintained, of course, restrictions on travel into the country, but the number of cases within Israel has been on the rise (Goldenberg & Heller, 2020). So, over the last week and going forward, the Israeli government, in the context of a number of Jewish holidays, they have instituted a lockdown, which includes a variety of restrictions in terms of venues that are open (BBC News, 2020a). Obviously, there are exceptions to those restrictions, but a number of businesses are closed (BBC News, 2020b). There are some restrictions, as well, in terms of activities that can place (Heller, 2020). There are now also cases of community transmission of the coronavirus in the Gaza Strip with the first cases of community transmission emerging in August (MacLeod, 2020). We have seen Hamas authorities institute a lockdown as well—broad-based at first, but more targeted of late (Akram, 2020). In the West Bank, Palestinians have been dealing with the community transmission of the coronavirus (Al-Jazeera, 2020c). The PA has taken a series of measures focused on more localized restrictions and lockdowns (OCHA, 2020).

Jacobsen: The United High Commissioner, Michelle Bachelet, made a statement about the lifting of the blockade of Gaza imposed by Israel, “The blockade, which contravenes international law, has conclusively failed to deliver security or peace for Israelis and Palestinians, and should urgently be lifted” (OHCHR, 2020).[3] Although, this is helpful and noteworthy and adds to the many, many years of speaking out against the blockade. Does this form of public statement, by even the U.N. High Commissioner, make any inroads or impact on how the discussion proceeds?

Shakir: Absolutely, I think statements are quite important. I think it is easy for folks to forget that Israel has, essentially, reduced Gaza to an open-air prison exacerbated by Egyptian restrictions (Amnesty International, n.d.). It is easy, years later, to accept that as normal. Every time there are armed hostilities, people forget about the context of closure, in which the majority of the population are barred from traveling unless they fit within a range of narrow exemptions, for example, if they manage to get a permit for urgent medical treatment. I think statements are important, because it is easy to forget in the day-to-day, with the annexation or escalation of particular hostilities, about the context of closure, which is really at the heart of the violations of the rights of Palestinians, not just to freedom of movement, but also to access to health (Human Rights Watch, 2019b; Human Rights Watch, 2021). Also when it comes to restrictions in terms of goods entering the country, they underly the economic woes of the population, where 80% of Gaza’s two million residents rely on humanitarian aid (UNRWA, n.d.). At the end of the day, the keys are in Israel’s hands. Egypt has some ability to help alleviate the situation with its crossing, but Israel, as the one that controls the movement of people and goods, the airspace, and access to the territorial waters, blocks the building of an airport and seaport for those in Gaza, continues to manage the population registry responsible for issuing I.D. cards, controls even the VAT, controls the no-go zone between Gaza and Israel, has effective control (Middle East Policy Council, n.d.; Al-Jazeera, 2021; The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica, 2021). It is important that statements continue to be issued and that countries prioritize this in their bilateral relations with Israel and push for ending the closure. Because until these unlawful and sweeping restrictions are lifted, we are going to continue to see tensions and hostilities there. The closure is really the central fact that accounts for the core of the misery of people in Gaza, effectively caged in an open-air prison.

Jacobsen: How has Israel, recently, in September halted some projects for Palestinians (Agence-France Presse, 2020)?

Shakir: Israel controls the entry and exit of people and goods to Gaza. Israel is able to control everything from how much fuel enters to how power plants run and how far fishermen can fish in the sea. Israel, for example, restricts entry of what it calls “dual-entry goods,” which are goods that, essentially, could be used for military purpose (International Trade Administration, 2020). But, under the Israeli definition, that includes x-ray technology, communications technology, gas tanks, construction material, which are essential for the everyday functioning of society. Israel sometimes decides to accelerate those restrictions (Gisha, 2020). For example, in August after some Palestinians launching incendiary balloons into Israel, Israel punitively restricted access for fishermen off the sea and reduced the entry of many goods, food and medicines (Shehada & Mahmoud, 2020). They have long been limiting the exports of those, including fuel important for the operation of Gaza’s one power plant, whose capacity has been significantly reduced by Israeli bombardment (Khoury & Zikri, 2020). The already limited quantity of electricity was further reduced amid these measures that were taken for a period of several weeks in August (Ibid.). As such, international projects all effectively require Israel’s approval. Egypt also plays a role, particularly on movement, but, even there, Israel plays the central role, for example controlling movement between Gaza and the West Bank, which are part of a single territory, as even the Israeli government has recognized.

Jacobsen: If we take a step back on Israel and Palestine, what are some of the more positive progressions since July towards resolution of parts of the conflict?

Shakir: It is difficult, in the circumstances we’re facing–not only the closure of Gaza, but the daily reality of entrenching a separate and unequal reality for Palestinians, a system of discrimination across the entire area Israel controls–it is difficult on the ground to see much, in terms of the situation and in the midst of the pandemic, to see signs of the situation improving. Certainly, one recent development that bears importance is Hamas and the Fatah-led PA have been in negotiations around some sort of reconciliation, but, again, those of us have seen these reports periodically (Al-Jazeera, 2020d). They have not led to changes on the ground. But certainly, any agreement between the two rival leading Palestinian factions could spell a significant step in reducing separation between the West Bank and Gaza. They also underlying tensions and arbitrary arrests between both authorities (Human Rights Watch, 2019c). While formal annexation would not likely have changed things on the ground, at least, initially, the fact that that is, at least, temporarily off the table helps protect against some of what that move could have meant. But I don’t see these as necessarily signs of hope. I think the hope that one might take is more looking at the ways in which human rights activists on the ground continue to do documentation and the way everyday people continue to challenge the deep oppression, especially by the Israeli government of Palestinians. But those are processes not likely to lead to changes in the short-term, but, one would hope, maybe in the medium to long run.

Jacobsen: From the U.S., there were sanctions against the International Criminal Court. How does this make the context of prosecuting international crimes more difficult and reduces capacity in which to call out violations and prosecute them properly, to enact justice in other words?

Shakir: I think the International Criminal Court, since its creation and establishment in 2002, has played a critical role as a court of last resort. It’s there particularly for situations where there are longstanding, serious abuses taking place and where the outlets for justice in-country have been blocked. Certainly, that’s the case with Israel and Palestine. There has been serial impunity for serious crimes by both Israeli and Palestinian authorities. When you look at the expansion of illegal settlements, when you look at use of force, excessive force, indiscriminate force at times by both Israelis and Palestinians, particularly in Gaza, when you look at policies in the West Bank, e.g., home demolitions, or the discrimination that underlies everyday life for Palestinians, it is quite clear that there are very serious crimes. The Israeli government has, at the highest level, sanctioned these policies. There is a whitewash machinery when it comes to investigating these crimes in Israel. It is the exact situation the International Criminal Court was created to combat. Of course, in response to the Court’s initial steps towards investigations in Palestine, by both Israelis and Palestinians, and in Afghanistan by the U.S., the U.S. has taken steps to attack and even sanction the prosecutor herself, as well as other members of the team of the International Criminal Court (United Nations, 2020). These are very dangerous moves. It highlights the contempt for the rule of law by the Trump Administration. We have seen many statements of support by other countries for the Court, highlighting the importance of the independence of the prosecutor and the ICC’s role as a court of last resort. With cases like this, involving abuses by strong states, they go to the heart of the credibility of an institution like the court. If the ICC can’t pursue these cases, every country that doesn’t want to face accountability at the International Criminal Court or bodies, will have a good argument. They can say, “If you’re making a special rule for powerful states, why should I have to play along with this institution?” I think it is important the Court continues to do its job and states concerned about the rule of law internationally should support the Court.

Jacobsen: Omar, as always, thank you so much.

Shakir: Take care, Scott, talk soon.

Previous Sessions (Chronological Order)

Interview with Omar Shakir – Israel and Palestine Director, Human Rights Watch (Middle East and North Africa Division)

HRW Israel and Palestine (MENA) Director on Systematic Methodology and Universal Vision

Human Rights Watch (Israel and Palestine) on Common Rights and Law Violations

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 1 – Recent Events

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 2 – Demolitions

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 3 – November-December: Deportation from Tel Aviv, Israel for Human Rights Watch Israel and Palestine Director

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 4 – Uninhabitable: The Viability of Gaza Strip’s 2020 Unlivability

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 5 – The Trump Peace Plan: Is This the “The Deal of the Century,” or Not?

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 6 – Tripartite Partition: The Israeli Elections, the International Criminal Court (ICC), and SARS-CoV-2/COVID-19

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 7 – New Heights to the Plight and the Fight: Covid-19, Hegemony, Restrictions, and Rights

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 8 (w/ Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967) – Annexation, International Law, Occupation, Rights, and Settlements

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 9 – When Rain is Law and Justice is Dry Land

Addenda

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) Addendum: Some History and Contextualization of Rights

Other Resources Internal to Canadian Atheist

Interview with Dr. Norman Finkelstein on Gaza Now

Extensive Interview with Gideon Levy

Interview with Musa Abu Hashash – Field Researcher (Hebron District), B’Tselem

Interview with Gideon Levy – Columnist, Haaretz

Interview with Dr. Usama Antar – Independent Political Analyst (Gaza Strip, Palestine)

Interview with Wesam Ahmad – Representative, Al-Haq (Independent Palestinian Human Rights Organization)

Extensive Interview with Professor Richard Falk – Fmr. (5th) United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967

Extensive Interview with Professor John Dugard – Fmr. (4th) United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967

Extensive Interview with S. Michael Lynk – (7th) United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967

Conversation with John Dugard, Richard Falk, and S. Michael Lynk on the Role of the Special Rapporteur, and the International Criminal Court & Jurisdiction

To resolve the Palestinian question we need to end colonialism

Trump’s Colonial Solution to the Question of Palestine Threatens the Foundations of International Law

Dr. Norman Finkelstein on the International Criminal Court

References

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Hass, A. (2020, March 15). The Stubborn Ph.D. Student From the Gaza Strip. Retrieved from https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-the-stubborn-ph-d-student-from-the-gaza-strip-1.9619285.

Heller, J. (2020, September 3). Israel announces partial national lockdown after coronavirus surge. Retrieved from https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-israel-idUSKBN25U2T1.

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Human Rights Watch. (2020a). Israel and Palestine Events of 2020. Retrieved from https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2021/country-chapters/israel/palestine.

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Human Rights Watch. (2019c, May 29). Palestine: No Letup in Arbitrary Arrests, Torture. Retrieved from https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/05/29/palestine-no-letup-arbitrary-arrests-torture.

Human Rights Watch. (2019b, December 17). Q&A: Born Without Civil Rights. Retrieved from https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/12/17/qa-born-without-civil-rights.

Human Rights Watch. (2018a, October 23). Two Authorities, One Way, Zero Dissent. Retrieved from https://www.hrw.org/report/2018/10/23/two-authorities-one-way-zero-dissent/arbitrary-arrest-and-torture-under.

Human Rights Watch. (2017, April 2). Unwilling or Unable: Israeli Restrictions on Access to and from Gaza for Human Rights Workers. Retrieved from https://www.hrw.org/report/2017/04/02/unwilling-or-unable/israeli-restrictions-access-and-gaza-human-rights-workers.

International Trade Administration. (2020, September 14). Israel – Country Commercial Guide. Retrieved from https://www.trade.gov/knowledge-product/israel-us-export-controls.

Kaplan, F. (2020, September 15). A Big Deal but Not a Peace Deal. Retrieved from https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/09/trump-israel-uae-bahrain-deal.html.

Keleman, M. (2020, September 15). Abraham Accords Fall Short Of Becoming ‘The Deal Of The Century’. Retrieved from https://www.npr.org/2020/09/15/913246520/abraham-accords-fall-short-of-becoming-the-deal-of-the-century.

Khoury, J. & Zikri, A.B. (2020, August 18). Gaza’s Only Power Plant Shuts Down After Israel Cuts Fuel Imports. Retrieved from https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-gaza-s-only-power-plant-shuts-down-after-israel-cuts-fuel-imports-1.9082294.

Krauss, J. (2020, August 14). Netanyahu insists Israeli annexation halt under diplomatic deal with UAE is only temporary. Retrieved from https://www.adn.com/nation-world/2020/08/14/netanyahu-insists-israeli-annexation-halt-under-diplomatic-deal-with-uae-is-only-temporary/.

Landau, N. & Reuters. (2020, August 13). Israel Suspends West Bank Annexation in Deal to Normalize Relations With the UAE. Retrieved from https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/with-trump-s-help-israel-and-the-uae-reach-historic-deal-to-normalize-relations-1.9070687.

MacLeod, M. (2020, August 13). Massive outbreaks in Israeli schools a ‘cautionary tale’ for Canada. Retrieved from https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/massive-outbreaks-in-israeli-schools-a-cautionary-tale-for-canada-1.5062834.

Masri, D.A. (2020, August 3). Ahmad Erekat, Eyad al-Hallaq: The Latest Victims of Israel’s Shoot-to-Kill Policy. Retrieved from https://www.palestine-studies.org/en/node/1650427.

MEE Staff. (2020, September 17). University of Toronto rescinds job offer to academic over Israel criticism. Retrieved from https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/university-toronto–job-offer-academic-Israel-criticism.

Middle East Policy Council. (n.d.). Egypt Criticized for Gaza Blockade. Retrieved from https://mepc.org/commentary/egypt-criticized-gaza-blockade.

Miller, A.D. (2020, August 19). Opinion: Israel And UAE’s Accord Is A Big Win, But Don’t Overplay It. Retrieved from https://www.npr.org/2020/08/19/903887415/opinion-israel-and-uaes-accord-is-a-big-win-but-don-t-overplay-it.

Najah, E. (2020, August 14). I Lost My Son in a Hail of Bullets at an Israeli Checkpoint. Retrieved from https://www.thenation.com/article/world/ahmad-erekat/.

OCHA. (2020, September 22). Occupied Palestinian Territory (oPt): COVID-19 Emergency Situation Report No. 18. Retrieved from https://reliefweb.int/sites/reliefweb.int/files/resources/sitrep_18_covid_19.pdf.

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Patel, Y. (2020, July 30). Ahmad Erekat’s family is still trying to get his body returned. Retrieved from https://mondoweiss.net/2020/07/ahmad-erekats-family-is-still-trying-to-get-his-body-returned/.

Rasgon, A. (2020, September 24). Gaza Peace Activists Face Prison for Holding Video Call With Israelis. Retrieved from https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/24/world/middleeast/gaza-zoom-activists-palestinian.html.

RefWorld. (2017, November 1). Freedom of the Press 2017 – West Bank and Gaza Strip. Retrieved from https://www.refworld.org/docid/59fc67afa.html.

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Shakir, O. (2019, April 18). Israel wants to deport me for my human rights work. Retrieved from https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/04/18/israel-wants-deport-me-my-human-rights-work/.

Shapiro, D.B. (2020, August 11). Annexation Isn’t Dead. A Desperate Trump Could Bring It Back to Life.. Retrieved from https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/08/11/annexation-israel-palestinians-trump-netanyahu/.

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Footnotes

[1] “Report of the Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories occupied since 1967*” or A/HRC/44/60 stated:

21. Cases of arbitrary arrest and detention by the de-facto authorities in Gaza continued to be reported, particularly of journalist, human rights and political activists. On 9 April, a number of Palestinian activists were arrested and detained by the de-facto authorities after being accused of engaging in “normalization activities with Israel”. A small group of activists had organized a zoom call with young Israeli activists to discuss living conditions in Gaza.30 Many continue to be arrested because of their political affiliation and perceived opposition to the Hamas authorities. Serious restrictions on freedom of expression continue to be in place particularly in the context of reporting on the socio-economic impact of the COVID19 pandemic.31 In June, a number of persons were arrested by the de-facto authorities in Gaza, as they expressed opposing political views and attempted to organize events that were banned by security forces.

22. A number of arrests by Palestinian Security Forces continued to be reported in the West Bank. Many of those arrested were accused of using social media platforms to criticize the Palestinian authority or expressing opposing political views.32 Limitations on freedom of expression remain a concern for journalists. A number of allegations of ill-treatment of those arrested also continue to be received.

United Nations Human Rights Council. (2020).

[2] “State of Palestine: Annexation Plan of the West Bank” (2020) states:

According to OCHA (2020), around 250 Israeli settlements have been established in the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) with some 633,000 Israeli settlers; over 400,000 reside in the West Bank and around 200,000 in East Jerusalem. According to the latest figures by NGO Peace Now, there are 132 settlements officially recognised by the Israeli Military of Interior (excluding East Jerusalem), and about 124 built by Israeli settlers without official authorisation — but with governmental support and assistance — known as “illegal outposts”. These settlements cover almost 10% of the West Bank.

ACAPS (2020).

[3] “In her global human rights update, Bachelet calls for urgent action to heighten resilience and protect people’s rights” (2020) states:

In the Occupied Palestinian Territory, the escalating tragedy in Gaza is of particular concern. Although temporary truces are welcome — including the latest agreement to end hostilities between armed groups in Gaza and Israel — Gaza’s two million people desperately need long-term and sustainable solutions. The blockade by sea and land, which Israel has imposed for 13 years, has brought Gaza’s main economic and commercial activities to a complete halt. As a direct result, more than 38% of Gazans live in poverty; 50% are unemployed; and more than 90% of the water from aquifers is undrinkable. Last month’s decision to ban the entry of fuel into Gaza creates even deeper suffering and humanitarian burdens. With sharply rising COVID-19 cases in Gaza, the health sector now faces total collapse, unless aspects of the blockade are lifted. The blockade, which contravenes international law, has conclusively failed to deliver security or peace for Israelis and Palestinians, and should urgently be lifted.

OHCHR (2020).

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Mandisa 66: Performative and Substantive Activism

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/08/17

Mandisa Thomas, a native of New York City, is the founder and President of Black Nonbelievers, Inc. Although never formally indoctrinated into belief, Mandisa was heavily exposed to Christianity, Black Nationalism, and Islam. As a child she loved reading, and enjoyed various tales of Gods from different cultures, including Greek and Ghanaian. “Through reading these stories and being taught about other cultures at an early age, I quickly noticed that there were similarities and differences between those deities and the God of the Christian Bible. I couldn’t help but wonder what made this God so special that he warrants such prevalence today,” she recalls.

Here we talk about performative and substantive activism in 2020.

*This was conducted July 13, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Okay, so, Mandisa, there are two types of activism. One is substantive. The other is performative. What irritates you? What bugs you about performative activism?

Mandisa Thomas: Performative activism is when people have a tendency aggrandize, and to appear to be doing more than they really are. Because activism is often perceived as public protesting and speaking, it is way too easy for others mimic via their personal platforms. Which irritates me greatly. The people who are behind the scenes are doing much of the hard work, and when you have some who come on the scene talking big, yet doing little to nothing else, it takes away from away from those who are truly dedicated the cause(s).

Jacobsen: Now, the people who tend to work behind the scenes, who tend not get as much play. We see this in the secular communities. We see this in every other community, typically, as a rule of thumb. We see more women doing the groundwork. I mean, we see this in the black church. It is the black church, as has been said, which was built on the backs of women, black women in particular. So, how does this diminish the legacy efforts, the intergenerational efforts? Because these things take time of a lot of the women and some of the men who are behind the scenes doing the hard work and making the emotional, financial, and physical sacrifices to make things move forward.

Thomas: There are a couple of factors that we need to consider here. The first is that we are still in a patriarchal society where women are still fighting to get proper compensation and credit for our work. Secondly, there is a gross assumption and expectation that changes happen overnight – which has never been the case, and never will be. I am well aware of the hardships that those who came before me faced, and give the utmost respect. It is easy for activists now to offer critiques about what used to happen back in the day, or what people may have endured. Not that it should be exempt from critique, but I can acknowledge that I may have been unable to deal with it as they did.

For many others, there’s a disconnect to the history. So, while the future generations shouldn’t be required to be mired in it, the struggles that our ancestors faced had tended to be lost on them. When people look to what happened in the past, they tend to generally think that it was so long ago. Because they’re not dealing with those issues so much now, so, it gives the perception that things are over. However, on the other side of that disconnect, there’s still a lot of the same rhetoric being spewed today from back then.

And while we understand that there’s still a long way to go, there HAS been progress. But there does need to be a more education and information available, so that more young people truly understand what it took to get here, and how it also needs to be maintained for future generations. This, along with showing humility and respect, can make a huge difference.

Jacobsen: What do you note as some of the issues of the younger generations when going out and attempting to move the dial a little bit more towards a just and fair society? And I should note to those who are potentially tuning into this series for the first time, the community organizing and the hospitality industry work for you. So, you’ve had to deal with people and people’s problems for a long time. What are some of the issues that you’re noting from younger generations of activists when they’re having to come across people and people problems in intense situations for the first time in their lives, potentially?

Thomas: Yes. So, I see that there are some good things happening, and some other things that need improvement. With the technology being more advanced now, it is easier for people, younger folks in particular, to communicate. What tends to get lost is formality, and people understanding that they must still maintain common courtesy and respect for others, whether online or in person, but especially in person. There are some people who think that the more education they have, that they may not necessarily have to exhibit those people skills as they should. That’s definitely something that I see is lost on the younger generations.

But the good thing is, they’re not falling for the old “fire and brimstone” tactics. There’s a lot of younger folks that are doing away with religious beliefs, and they are not going to be forced into silence or complicity. Which has always been the case for younger people in movements historically.  Also, if we can strike that balance between understanding the older generations and vice versa, then it will create a better team-building opportunities, and remain objective and balanced while working towards the future.

Jacobsen: Mandisa, thank you so much. It is always lovely.

Thomas: Thank you.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Mandisa 65: Billboard Ads

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/08/16

Mandisa Thomas, a native of New York City, is the founder and President of Black Nonbelievers, Inc. Although never formally indoctrinated into belief, Mandisa was heavily exposed to Christianity, Black Nationalism, and Islam. As a child she loved reading, and enjoyed various tales of Gods from different cultures, including Greek and Ghanaian. “Through reading these stories and being taught about other cultures at an early age, I quickly noticed that there were similarities and differences between those deities and the God of the Christian Bible. I couldn’t help but wonder what made this God so special that he warrants such prevalence today,” she recalls.

Here we talk about some posters in 2020.

*This was conducted August 10, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: We’re going to be talking about posters. That’s going to tie into, I think, the “black family.” That is, technically, a broader term and more general than the term the African-American family, because, though, some could come could be recent immigrants to the United States of African heritage, but are not African-American in the sense of a long term, here’s the most people who would be understanding. So, what’s going on with the posters? What’s the larger context?

Mandisa Thomas: Following the Black Family Discussion, we decided to erect some billboard ads that encouraged people to consider their beliefs as being a factor in white supremacy and preventing people from having true liberation. As we are experiencing both the pandemic as well as a rise in actions against racial injustice, there has been a call for monuments that upholds these ideals and institutions to be removed. But the one institution that is overlooked is Christianity and its roots in particular, because it has been a huge culprit in the enforcement in racism – ideals and all.

So, the purpose is to get the black community to reassess their relationship with religion, especially Christianity. Because as we call for justice, they’re going to need to take a hard look to this belief system and how it hinders those efforts. As more people shed those beliefs, they start understanding how problematic they are. We want to let people know that it is okay for them to let it go, if justice is truly to be served.

Jacobsen: So, let’s say, I’m an individual believer. I’m a Christian. I label myself a religious person. I consider myself a moral person. I walk ‘bearing the Cross,’ to use the language, in my life. Then someone comes along and critiques it, in that language used by you, they might be thinking or asking, “What do you mean by Christianity in relation to black Americans? What do you mean by its role in oppression?”

Thomas: There is documentation proving Christianity to have been instrumental in establishing the laws that instituted systems of oppression of black people and other marginalized groups in the country. So, in talking to believers, when they ask the question, “What do you mean by that?”, we in turn ask them about their religion and its language of servitude, of subjugation, and ‘obey your masters,’ and how that was historically a catalyst for the enslavement of our ancestors. We’re asking them to reconsider that, especially given this history – all while not discounting the role of the church at that time. It has been thoroughly documented whether people have researched it or not.

We are challenging people to think beyond those beliefs, because they have hindered the state of our communities physically, economically, and psychologically. And some may have actually thought about it. They may have questioned those beliefs previously, but afraid to openly do so due to potential consequences. That is unfortunately, a byproduct of believing in a religion that “curses” you for having the courage to think for yourself. So, what we are encouraging people to do is confront those fears, and even let them go.  

They may still choose to believe at the end of the day. And we’re not going to tell them that they should stop. But those who might be on their way out need to know that there are more out here. And there are going to be more in the future. Whether believers like it or not, at some point, they’re going to be confronted with more people who are challenging their beliefs – and either they need to be prepared to either properly defend them or fully assess, and/or let them go.

Jacobsen: Mandisa, thank you, as always.

Thomas: Thank you.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Mandisa 64: Juneteenth and Jim Crow

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/08/12

Mandisa Thomas, a native of New York City, is the founder and President of Black Nonbelievers, Inc. Although never formally indoctrinated into belief, Mandisa was heavily exposed to Christianity, Black Nationalism, and Islam. As a child she loved reading, and enjoyed various tales of Gods from different cultures, including Greek and Ghanaian. “Through reading these stories and being taught about other cultures at an early age, I quickly noticed that there were similarities and differences between those deities and the God of the Christian Bible. I couldn’t help but wonder what made this God so special that he warrants such prevalence today,” she recalls.

Here we talk about Juneteenth and Jim Crow in 2020.

*This was conducted June 22, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: We are back with another “Ask Mandisa.” Now, you grew up on a steady historical diet, in terms of knowing history. So, one of those mentioned to me was a knowledge of and recognition of Juneteenth. This was recently celebrated over the weekend. What is the importance of this particular historical moment in the context of the United States? How does this have larger implications about recognizing history for much of the population in the United States who can have historical amnesia?

Mandisa Thomas: So, in this current climate of recognizing that Black Lives Matter and having a better understanding of racism and injustice, the holiday of Juneteenth takes on a new significance. More people are learning that in this country, black folks have never been truly free, and that there is still a systemic effort to oppress black folks and other people of colour. Juneteenth is a celebration of what was ultimately bad communication on behalf of the state of Texas. Abraham Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation, declaring slavery illegal in 1863. But it wasn’t until June 19th of 1865 that the slaves in Texas and other Southern states were informed that this was the case. And so, this is an acknowledgement of a celebration that the slaves were freed, but also the significance of the disregard for black people in this country. And as we see more resistance and protests not only around the country, but around the world, being so close to the Juneteenth holiday makes it more significant. Hopefully, there will be more concerted efforts to make Juneteenth a national holiday or part of national recognition in the wake of it being ignored for so long.

Jacobsen: What are some of the fallout even after the end of slavery and Jim Crow laws and, basically, that, at least, the 60s version of the Civil Rights movement? And what are some of the fallouts that we’re seeing in some of the current moments of that? I mean, in terms of its explicit, dramatic moments of activism or protest.

Thomas: Of course, we’re seeing a response in the form of “All Lives Matter” and “Blue Lives Matter”, with a lot of white people asking, “What about OUR ancestral struggles?” On social media, we are seeing a rise in white people openly using racial slurs against black folks and becoming irate about the resistance movements. Someone put a noose in Bubba Wallace, a Black NASCAR driver’s vehicle, in response to the commemoration of the Black Lives Matter movement. NASCAR also banned the Confederate flag in 2020, which most likely fueled the flames of anger for many fans. However, we’ve seen quite a few white people who want to help, and try to do better. But even their privilege and upbringings are racist in nature, which is compelling them to try to get more black folks to educate them and do more work at our expense – which isn’t helpful at all.

So every time something like this occurs and there is a push for policy changes, whether in the private or public sector, there will be pushback, and people feeling like their rights are being infringed upon. But I think it’s because they’ve been used to things being a certain way for so long, that they are scared. Change is hard, but it is necessary. 

Jacobsen: Mandisa, thank you so much for your time.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Mandisa 63: African Americans for Humanism

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/08/10

Mandisa Thomas, a native of New York City, is the founder and President of Black Nonbelievers, Inc. Although never formally indoctrinated into belief, Mandisa was heavily exposed to Christianity, Black Nationalism, and Islam. As a child she loved reading, and enjoyed various tales of Gods from different cultures, including Greek and Ghanaian. “Through reading these stories and being taught about other cultures at an early age, I quickly noticed that there were similarities and differences between those deities and the God of the Christian Bible. I couldn’t help but wonder what made this God so special that he warrants such prevalence today,” she recalls.

Here we talk about secular communities and current issues (2020).

*This was conducted June 29, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, we’ve got some fantastic news. It has to do with mainly finance, but also, maybe, a change in some of the winds in terms of support for – let’s call it – African-American Humanism, if it is American based or black humanism. What happened?

Mandisa Thomas: Yes. So, in the month of June, BN and other black organizations have seen a surge in support, which I’m sure is in light of the tension that culminated with the tragic murder of George Floyd. We’ve attracted new donors, and people inquiring about supporting our work. Also, a couple  – fellow atheists – contacted us at our website looking to directly support one of our members financially. After careful consideration, including a potential suggestion for them to route this through BN, I put them in touch with one of our members, who is a struggling single mom. I wasn’t sure significant their support would be, but I learned later that it will benefit her and her family tremendously. In addition, my virtual speaking schedule has increased. So, I appreciate the enhanced support; hopefully, it maintains its momentum.

Jacobsen: When you get this support, I think we can all understand the overwhelming emotion that can wash over someone, especially in the midst of a pandemic. When an organization is running through some tough financial times, when you get that money, and you get the guarantee or have the promise of such finance, what do you do in terms of start running through your mind, plans? How many steps do you start looking ahead and then start filling in the details of what you can do?

Thomas: Oh, my gosh, I know my mind goes all over the place! Thanks to a generous grant from the Stiefel Freethought Foundation, BN will go host an online event in July, which will have some prominent names attached, as we discuss religion in the black community. I always look to see how we can improve operations as well as our supplies. I think of new collaboration opportunities for the organization, and ways to better utilize and combine the resources that we already have. Overall, it is a matter of ensuring that we have enough that we’re not struggling, from year to year or month to month. Making sure that we are in a position where even when we fundraise, it doesn’t feel like a matter of life or death. We’ve also seen an increase in our online store sales, which has been great as well. So, all across the board, this gives us a boost.

Jacobsen: Now, you have a significant amount of experience and expertise in the hospitality industry. The hospitality industry is notoriously stressful and at times chaotic. So, you have the experience to know to buttress excitement here when it comes to the long-term planning of some of these financial contributions. So, when you’re looking at that plan forward: How are you making certain, as the founder and president of Black Nonbelievers Inc., to make sure the finances last a long time, are used with prudence and on projects that will have benefit to the community, and as outreach to a wider secular community?

Thomas: Yes. My background in hospitality and as well as management and administrative work, we save on overhead. So, in addition to representing the organization, I also do many things on the backend. While I know that I will want to eventually delegate and hire for some of those responsibilities, as long as I have the ability, then I will manage all of the things that are within my purview. This may be a little self-congratulatory here, but I am proud of my ability to communicate and work as hard as I do. I also pride myself on my ability to explore different various development avenues with the organization. And that’s the way I’ve always worked, even when I was employed by other companies. I am able to work independently, and also as a team, learning from what other people do. So, if I need to step in for someone, then I can. With BN still being so small, we’re able to keep things fairly manageable. It takes skill, time, and determination, but it is worth it.

Jacobsen: Mandisa congratulations, thank you so much for your time.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Jon 38: Dichotomous Dialogues and Decorum

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/24

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New YorkHere we talk about a recent dialogue between Jon and a Christian pastor in New York.

*Interview conducted April 5, 2021.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, here’s the ‘Cliff’s Notes’ of the story before getting into it, I got an email from a pastor in New York State. They wanted to do an interview with me. They had seen; I had been doing interviews with pastors in the Lower Mainland of British Columbia and elsewhere as an educational effort, as an interbelief and dialogue effort[1]. They liked it. Presumably, they approved of the effort. They reached out to me to get an interview with me. However, they were from another country. They’re from another side of the continent. They were from New York State. So, with very different cultures, countries, and sides of a continent, it seemed more apt to reach out to someone I know in New York State. That happens to be the wonderful Jon. So, I offered to get you two in touch. You proved it. You actually got together. I was on the emails to make sure things were respectful, and so on. The interview went forward. So, what happened?

Jonathan Engel: Well, it was very interesting. He was a very nice man. Our conversation was very cordial, so that was good. He had said to me in the emails that we went back and forth. He wasn’t really interested in anything confrontational or debate, the formal debate. Although, he did mention when we talked; he might be interested in the future in a debate. I’m not sure if I would be or not, but we’ll see. But in any event, this was not that. This was just a conversation. Again, it was very cordial. He was true to his word. It was not in any way confrontational. We did disagree on a few things. At one point, he talked about the Constitution of the United States being based on Judeo-Christian values. I disagreed.

I said at the heart of the Constitution of the United States is democracy. Democracy is not a Judeo-Christian value. Democracy is an enlightened value. Again, I was, at the time, when I said that, I thought to myself, “I don’t remember anything in the Bible about Jesus saying to the apostles, ‘OK guys, now we’re going to take a vote on what we do next.’” So, we had a few things. Obviously, we don’t exactly agree on the nature of how human beings came to be on this planet. We also disagree on the age of the planet, which I pegged at about 4.6 billion years, give or take a year or two. He believed that it was significantly less old than that, which is not all that surprising.

But there was something I have to tell you, Scott. It was something I found very interesting and surprising about our conversation. Which afterwards, I talked about it with my wife. She said: Maybe, the reason that I counted this thing – I came to this in a second, surprisingly, which is that I’ve never really spent a lot of time around a true fundamentalist religious person, which is basically true. But here’s what surprised me, it seemed to me that my worldview was a secular humanist, was much more positive, optimistic, and life-affirming than was his. That surprised me. Maybe, it may have been because I was a little around a fundamentalist believer.

But I thought that they were more in terms of God’s Gospel and Jesus Christ superstar when I was a kid or something. Because I thought Jesus was peace and love and all the rest of that stuff. But there seemed to be a very underlying worldview with belief in things like punishment and obedience to authority. I said, “You’ve got to question authority.” I wouldn’t say, “If a cop says, ‘It’s dangerous to go this way,’ go that way.” I’m not going to stand there and argue with him. But when it comes to things that don’t involve the immediate need to make a decision or something, I was talking about questioning authority. He was talking, “Well, it depends on the authorities.”

So, he was very big on obedience. He talked about Adam and Eve. Adam could have been perfect. Adam could have had this great life forever and ever and ever. But he took that apple. He disobeyed. In a lot of ways, I was talking about how he was asking me about what I think and what I believe in my worldview, etc., and what’s my purpose in life. I said, “Well, essentially, my purpose in life is to make myself in whatever small ways I can a better person.” Again, in whatever small ways I can to make the world a better place, I said, “We can do so much better than we do now if we care about each other more, if we love each other more, if we value each person like a secular humanist and are committed to each person reaching their potential.”

I said, “These are the things that bring you joy in life. That brings you to make the world a little bit better to help another person. These are wonderful things that bring joy to life.” I talked about how sometimes people who think that someone who’s an atheist like me, “Well, how do you feel wonder around and awe?” And I said, “I feel wonder all the time. I feel wonder just that there are people who are different than me and they’re interesting. The fact that we’re all here. I find it to be an amazing thing.” I think it was Richard Feynman, the physicist, who said, ‘Just because you know what makes a rainbow doesn’t make it any less beautiful.’ But I think one of the biggest things to take away from this is that; from my world view, human beings have to make the world a better place.

We have the ability to do it. This is something that needs to be our goal going forward. Being secular humanists, every chance we get to make the world a little better; that’s what we have to do. His world view on that kind of issue was more like, “We, as human beings… I’m not God and, therefore, I don’t have the power to do that. Instead, I know that Jesus will come back and he will make the world perfect.” So, he seemed more okay with just letting things be as they are. I pointed out to him. Robert Kennedy once said, “Some people look at things as they are and say, ‘Why?’ I look at things as they could be and say, ‘Why not?’” I think that’s more of a secular humanist point of view.

But his point of view was more like, “Jesus is going to come and then everything will be perfect. So, it’s foolish for human beings to try and make the world better because they’ll never succeed. That’s not the way it works. Human beings don’t have the power to do that. Only Jesus does. When He’s ready, He will come back and make the world perfect,” which to me was fatalism of the way the world is today. That, for me, as a secular humanist is absolutely unacceptable. I just find that completely unacceptable. I don’t mean that he’s not allowed to think what he thinks. Of course, people have to believe what he believes. But for me, I find that unacceptable. That we just sit around and wait for somebody. That, in my view, is never is going to come to make the world perfect.

Forget about “perfect,” there’s an old saying in politics, “Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of good.” We can do better. To me, I have an obligation to every other human being to try to make it better and they’re more like, “No, it’s just a matter of what we must believe. We must obey. We must be obedient to authorities and our religious authorities and to what they believe, which is being obedient to God. Then when we’re really good and obedient, God will make things perfect.” I’m like, “Man, you guys are sitting around waiting for something that ain’t going to happen.” I’m not willing to wait for that. I’m going to try to make the world better right now as it is; and that’s part, again, of the secular humanist viewpoint that we have to work. That we can’t wait for somebody else to make this world better and that burden is on us right here and right now and what you do each day to make the world a better place.

Jacobsen: What were the parts that you agreed on fundamentally?

Engel: There wasn’t a lot. I got the sense that I certainly believe that he has the right to his beliefs. He believes that I have the right to my beliefs. So, I think that was a good thing. I mentioned to him. It’s the case. I’m a big believer in the Constitution‘s First Amendment, which includes both the establishment clause and the free exercise clause. Listen, for me, it would be: I would demonstrate. I might talk to somebody just like I asked him if he was an evangelical. But then he laughed and said, “But I don’t expect that you’re going to join my congregation.” I said, “Well, listen, I also would like to persuade people to give up religion. But I would never force and never expect him to join the secular humanist society when the call was over either.”

But I would like to persuade people to give up religion. I said, “I would never coerce somebody to do so for two reasons. Number one, it’s unethical and simply wrong. Number two, it doesn’t work anywhere. You try to tell people not to do something, then they’re going to do it. If you said, “You can’t do this anymore,” then that’s the first thing they want to do. So, it’s ineffective and it’s wrong. We both agreed on that that people should not be coerced in religious beliefs in any way. We really didn’t get into what he felt was the role of religion in public life in government or politics. But I didn’t get the sense that he thought that that was where he was in terms of what he sees as God.

I respect that he wasn’t thinking that he was going to convert me; any more that I was thinking that I was going to convert him. So, I think that was one of the things we agreed on in terms of the ground rules. That we both have the right to our own beliefs and neither one of us would try to coerce the other one into changing what their belief system is.

Jacobsen: Do you have any recommendations for individuals who are going to have a conversation themselves in the future?

Engel: For a part of me, the second humanists are going to speak to someone who is a fundamentalist religious person. Personally, I would say to them, “One of the things I tried to do in this call, and I think that it’s important for us to do, is that I establish a personal thing.” We talked for about 20 minutes about stuff. I asked him exactly, “Where is your place located? Where do you live, your town?” I know a little bit because I went to college in Buffalo. I used to drive up through upstate New York and western New York to get there. my son went to college in Binghamton, which is not too far from where he is. So, we talked about that. He said he was going to some homeschooling, I think, conference or something like that in Buffalo.

I told them where to get the best wings in Buffalo. I think that would be one thing I would tell people. Establish just a little humanity and human communication that you would talk to any person that you didn’t really know and then would talk with, “Well, what’s life like in your town? I’ll tell you what life is like where I live.” He mentioned how he’s been to the city. He said that one of the things that he really liked about the city was all the different kinds of food. He said, “Up here, it’s like basic American food or Italian pizza places are Italian. But anything else, it’s really not too much.” I said, “Yeah, well, one of my favourite restaurants, which was unfortunately closed by Covid down here, was a Tibetan restaurant that I really liked.”

So, we established that. The other thing I would say is a given; that you want to establish a personal relationship and you want to be polite, as much as possible. I would also say, “Don’t roll over, frankly.” when he said something about, “Well, of course, you understand that the Constitution was based on Judeo-Christian values. I said, “No.” I didn’t say it nastily or anything. Never call them names or something because of a disagreement. But I also didn’t just let it slide. I say, “It’s okay when someone says something that’s fundamentally at odds with what you believe, to point that out.” That’s what I would recommend to somebody to establish a personal connection, be unfailingly polite. But by the same token, if you hear something that you just think is wrong, it’s OK to say, “Hey, no, I don’t believe that. I believe something different.”

Jacobsen: Jon, thank you so much.

Engel: It’s my pleasure, Scott, as always. Thank you for setting me up with this guy. Actually, it was interesting and illuminating for me.

Jacobsen: Yes, I thought it more appropriate with two New Yorkers rather than a Vancouverite and a New Yorker.

Engel: Yes, so, I appreciate it. It was interesting. I think, I learned something from it.

Jacobsen: Excellent, to me, that’s the end goal, was the ultimate goal.

Footnotes

[1] See Jacobsen (2018a), Jacobsen (2018b), Jacobsen (2018c), Jacobsen (2018d), Jacobsen (2019a), Jacobsen (2019b), Jacobsen (2019c), and Jacobsen (2020a).

References

Jacobsen, S.D. (2019a, December 26). Canada: Interview with Pastor Josh Loeve – Lead Pastor, Centre Church. Retrieved from https://www.newsintervention.com/loeve-jacobsen/.

Jacobsen, S.D. (2018a, October 9). Conversation with Pastor Brad Strelau – Pastor, CA Church: Town Center. Retrieved from https://www.canadianatheist.com/2018/10/strelau-jacobsen/.

Jacobsen, S.D. (2018c, July 26). Interview with Andy Steiger – Pastor, Young Adult Ministries, Northview Community Church & Director, Apologetics Canada. Retrieved from https://www.canadianatheist.com/2018/07/steiger-jacobsen/.

Jacobsen, S.D. (2019b, September 28). Interview with Pastor Clint Nelson – Lead Pastor, Parkside Church. Retrieved from https://www.canadianatheist.com/2019/09/nelson-jacobsen/.

Jacobsen, S.D. (2018b, September 22). Interview with Pastor Dave Solmes – Lead Pastor, Living Waters Church. Retrieved from https://www.canadianatheist.com/2018/09/solmes-jacobsen/.

Jacobsen, S.D. (2019c, June 26). Interview with Rev. Helen Tervo – Vicar, St. Andrew’s Anglican Church. Retrieved from https://www.canadianatheist.com/2019/06/tervo-jacobsen/.

Jacobsen, S.D. (2020a, September 1). Pastor Bob Cottrill on Christianity, Faith, and Intuition. Retrieved from https://www.newsintervention.com/pastor-bob-cottrill-on-christian-faith-and-intuition/.

Jacobsen, S.D. (2018d, May 2). Pastor Paul VanderKlay on the Christian Reformed Church. Retrieved from https://www.canadianatheist.com/2018/05/vanderklay/.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Jon 37: Universal Vaccination and Rugged Individualism

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/23

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New YorkHere we talk about the collision between the value of rugged individualism and the need for universal vaccination in the moment of a pandemic.  

*Interview conducted March 22, 2021.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Vaccines really touch on or show by population experiments, natural experiments, the outcomes of American values. When I look at them, I am seeing distinct lines drawn between humanistic values and American values. American values around a lot longer within American discourse; humanist values in the American form grew out of that American context. So, the hemisphere is “be an individual person plus social responsibility.” So, there’s a sense that the interpersonal is secondary, the collective is tertiary, but the individual is primary. But those are all connected, and you can’t make them separate in any way. In American values, the exceptional American individual can be separated in that ideology.

And it has certain outcomes in terms of how some political or social philosophies play out. I think this is playing out in real-time in the vaccine context throughout the country in different ways to different degrees in different states. In New York, what’s your experience with regards to this value dichotomy? How is it worsening the situation or the well-being of Americans?

Jonathan Engel: It seems to me that we’re going to reach an interesting tipping point probably in a couple of months. Because right now the United States is doing a lot of vaccinations. Over the weekend, I think it was nearly three million a day. I myself have gotten my first vaccination and I need to go back to get my second. I’ve got the Pfizer at the Jacob K. Javits Convention Center in New York, which is this huge building. They’ve been doing about 10,000 shots a day there. They say that they’re ready to ramp up as more vaccines become available for 20,000 shots a day. We’re still in the stage right now where not everybody can get it. There are still eligibility requirements in the state of New York. You have to be over 60 or have a specific pre-existing condition or have a specific job that you do, like a medical worker or teacher that puts you at the front of the line.

So, I still know people who are trying to get vaccinated who haven’t been able to yet. Then, of course, there are people like my sons, who are 32 and 28, and who have no particular condition and they’re not even eligible yet. But eventually, of course, they’re doing lots of shots. Eventually, you’re going to get to a situation where everybody who agrees to be vaccinated and wants to be vaccinated has it, then comes the question, “What do you do with everybody else?” Because we have to get to about 80% to 90% vaccinated to get herd immunity. What happens with the people who don’t?

And you’re right, this country does not have a great history of collective action. It’s something that is really more “every man for himself.” Although, here in the United States, we like to refer to that as Rugged Individualism. It doesn’t sound quite so selfish, but it is. In my view, that viewpoint has been escalating. It’s almost been on steroids for several decades at least, or maybe as long as I’ve been alive. I think, maybe, I’m just viewing this nostalgically. But I think that there used to be a little bit more of a concept of the common good in this country. But that’s gone. It seems to have gotten lost. This individual thing has become more like, “I can do whatever I want. Who are you to tell me what to do? Who are you to tell me to wear a mask? Who are you to tell me to get vaccinated?”

There are people in this country who don’t want to get vaccinated, not even that so much as a medical thing; although, I don’t even know what the medical excuse would be to not get vaccinated. But just to say, “Hey, if you’re telling me to get vaccinated, I won’t get vaccinated because I don’t like people telling me what to do.” The problem, of course, is that that kind of selfishness is hard to counter. That kind of belief that “I can do what I want” is hard to counter. You try countering it with logic as a humanist. That’s what I would try to do. But it’s not easy. You can say to people, “Hey, you’ve been in resort towns in the summertime. That sign that says, ‘No shirt, no shoes and no service.’ Well, you obey, right? You accept it. So, if it says, ‘No mask,’ why not the same acceptance?”

Of course, there’s the possibility that certain public institutions or certain things are open to the public. If you think about flights or airlines, they are going to say, “You have to get vaccinated in order to get on our plane and show proof of vaccination.” I hope they will. But there’s a strong attitude against that kind of thing, so from a humanist perspective. Where we look at that, we have to consider the needs and well-being of the people we share this planet with. That is a very frightening thing. It’s a real challenge to us to try to get people to understand that we need to all get vaccinated for this to work or a large proportion of us to get vaccinated in order for this to work.

And again, you try to use logic and say, “Hey, you say you don’t want to wear a mask. You say you want to get together with your buddies. You say that you want to go to bars and restaurants and movies and all the rest of that stuff. Well… this is the way we can achieve it if we all get vaccinated.” So, that’s the interesting counter. On the one hand, these people say, “Well, I don’t want to, so, why should I have to?” And the answer is: Because if you want to get back to that, this is what it requires and it’s going to take a huge public relations push. I honestly don’t know how, in the end, it’s going to work. I don’t know if it’s going to, if we’re going to be able to do it or not. It’s very frustrating to think that we have the technology, we have the science, and we are producing huge amounts of vaccines.

We’re getting it out there. We will have the ability to get everybody vaccinated before the fall comes. We could do that in the United States. But whether people will agree to it or not is something that’s kind of up in the air, again, it really is; I don’t know how things are going to go. I wish I had a crystal ball, but I don’t. I don’t know if we’re going to get this really under control, so that we can have a semblance of normalcy or we’re going to slide back. There’s always the possibility of sliding back to things like forced closures, etc., if we don’t take care of it when we can.

Jacobsen: Jon, thank you as always.

Engel: Ok, thank you, Scott. Listen, take care of yourself.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Jon 36: The ‘Truth’ and Abuse of Stature

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/22

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New YorkHere we talk about religion as a political tool in the United States.

*Interview conducted March 8, 2021.*

Jacobsen: So, for New York State and some of its political contexts, insofar as religious pluralism and non-religion are concerned, how do individual people in politics, in the United States, in New York, try to violate that by calling for the “truth,” by quoting the Bible? Or how do they attempt to make a point using religious scripture where the context in a political situation should be a-religious – in that it’s politics, not religion?

Engel: Well, it’s used quite a bit. This is a very religious country. I wish it wasn’t the case, but that’s the way it is. So, frequently, we’re talking about elected representatives who will go onto the floor of whatever their legislature is, whether it’s the state legislature in Albany or the federal Congress and say, “This is the way this should be,” or, “We should vote against this bill,” or, “We should vote for this bill because…,” and then pull out some quote from a passage of the Christian Bible. Say, “Well, therefore… and therefore, since this is what God’s Word is,” which is just absolutely dumbfounding to me. But what happens is, you get a lot of quiet in response to that, where you frequently get counterarguments made biblically.

In other words, you are responding, “Well, wait a second, I know that that passage said that. But what about this passage from the Bible?” Of course, they’re always talking about the Christian Bible. This is still the United States; and then Muslims, we’re talking about what the Quran says, or didn’t say, or anything else like that. So, it’s about, “Look at this passage from the Bible that contradicts it.” They’re saying that they are having this theological argument, which is absolutely ridiculous and, more importantly, has no place in deliberations by a public body that represents all the people of all religions and no religion. So, what happened recently, there was a debate going on in the United States House of Representatives on the Equality Act, which would ban discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity.

And the representative, Republican, from Florida, Steube, I don’t know how to pronounce the name. They got up and read a passage from the Bible saying, ‘A man must not wear women’s clothing. No man wears women’s clothing for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this.’ Anyway, he went on to say, ‘Therefore, you’re not supposed to, if God assigned you. It is wisdom to be in particular sex or gender. That’s all you can ever be, because that’s what God intended.’ Again, there were reactions. Some people stood up and defended this as an assault on transgender people. ‘They have as much right as anybody to happiness.’

Absolutely, I agree with that. It’s nice someone said it. But somebody said something else, and that was Representative Jerry Nadler, who is a member of the United States House of Representatives from New York City. He’s chairman of the House Judiciary Committee. What he said was, ‘What any religious tradition describes as God’s will is no concern of this Congress.’ And, boy, I have to tell you, Scott; I’ve been waiting years to hear somebody respond to one of these so-called biblical arguments with something along those lines, ‘Hey, look, we’re not going to argue with you about what the Bible says and what the Bible means. And, of course, when you say the Bible, we’re only talking about your Bible, I understand, but I don’t care what it says. We’re not going to have that argument because what it says and what you think that dictates has no place in this Congress. It’s not a concern of this Congress. What you think your particular God’s will is?’ I thought that was fantastic and unusual, unfortunately, but I think it was just so great that he said it.

Jacobsen: How did the public react when this came out?

Engel: It was kind of buried a little bit. I found it online. I verified that’s what he said. But it really is in New York City where he’s from, especially on the west side, which is even thought to be more liberal than East sides. I live on the East side. But anyway, he’s not going to get blowback on that in New York City. People in New York City expect this to be the case. We’re not as religious as other places. There are plenty of religious people and small enclaves. There are enclaves of ultra-orthodox Jews in New York City. But for the most part, he’s not going to get any pushback here in the city for saying this. This is something that most people in New York City just accept as being a matter of course.

We have no choice in some ways, but to reflect on New York City. Because we’re the most diverse city in the world. We have lots of Protestants and Catholics and Jews and Hindus and Muslims and Buddhists and people of no religion at all – thank you very much, including me. So, in New York, you can’t really get away with it in New York City. I’m not talking about the rest of New York State. But New York City, you really can’t get away with that kind of thing very much. So, the only mention, I haven’t seen a lot of mentions of what Nadler said, but the only mentions I’ve seen of it were part of people being very appreciative of it, especially in the secular community.

But other people as well, being appreciative that he would say, “Listen, your Christian Bible has no place here.” Not that people can’t read it and follow it and do whatever they want with it in their private lives. But on the floor of the House of Representatives, “When we’re sitting here making law and making policy, what you think your God’s will is, is unimportant to what we’re doing. It is irrelevant to what we’re doing right now,” which was a fantastic thing.

Jacobsen: Jon, thank you so much for your time and we’ll talk to you next week.

Engel: Ok, Scott. Listen, take care of yourself.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Dr. P.B. 4: “The Arbiters of Faith”

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/18

Dr. Teale Phelps Bondaroff has been a community organizer for more than 15 years. He has been active in Saanich municipal politics. He earned a PhD in Politics and International Studies from the University of Cambridge and two BAs from the University of Calgary in Political Science and International Relations, respectively. He is a Board Member of the Greater Victoria Placemaking Network. He owns and operates a research consultancy called The Idea Tree. He is a New Democrat, politically, and is the President of the Saanich-Gulf Islands NDP riding association. He founded OceansAsia as a marine conservation organization devoted to combating illegal fishing and wildlife crime. Here we talk about “The Arbiters of Faith: Legislative Assembly of BC Entanglement with Religious Dogma Resulting from Legislative Prayer” and recent research work of the BCHA.

— 

*Note, this interview occurred before the ‘Arbiters of Faith’ article was published and before the Clerk of the BC Legislature completed their review of prayer in the BC Legislature. The article discussed in this interview has subsequently been published in the journal of Secularism & Nonreligion.*

Scott Jacobsen: So, you submitted a report entitled, “The Arbiters of Faith: Legislative Assembly of BC Entanglement with Religious Dogma Resulting from Legislative Prayer.” What was the purpose of this paper and what are some of the general overview points of this paper report?

Dr. Teale Phelps Bondaroff: A lot of people are not familiar with the fact that each daily sitting at the B.C. legislature starts with a prayer and it is delivered by a member of the Legislative Assembly, or on days there’s a speech from the throne, by a guest from the public. So, the BCHA did a comprehensive analysis of these prayers. People can read about our interview and the content of that report in the House of Prayers Report.

One of the things that’s interesting is that in BC, MLAs are asked to deliver a prayer. They have the option of either delivering a prayer of their own devising or reading a prayer from a list of sample prayers that is provided by legislative staff. When we did the analysis in the House of Prayer study, we found that the MLAs were selecting a prayer from the list of sample prayers 50 percent, half, of the time,

So, this got us wondering about the list of sample prayers. When you look at the list of sample prayers, you see three that are ‘nonsectarian’ and two that are ‘secular.’ By this I mean that three of them are overtly religious — they mention “God,” and other religious language. And the two secular ones seem religiously affiliated, but they do not mention gods and they’re more of a thanksgiving thing.

The background in this article is … at the end of 2019, the Office of the Clerk of the Legislative Assembly in British Columbia was conducting a review of the process and procedures around prayers in the legislature. We submitted a comprehensive 138-page report, the House of Prayers Report. In it, we suggested that a starting each session of the BC Legislature with a prayer is not a good idea. The report outlines a lot of reasons why we shouldn’t be doing this: It is unconstitutional, potentially. It excludes people. It diminishes and otherwise trivializes the sacred act, and other arguments along these lines. We submitted the report as our input to the Clerk’s review process.
 
 We are aware that the sample prayers were part of the review process conducted by the office of the clerk. The Clerk was reviewing the sample list likely because these five prayers were not representative of the views of British Columbians, or reflected the views of only a narrow band of British Columbians. And so part of the process that the Office of the Clerk is currently undertaking is a revision of this list.

After we submit our report, we got to thinking: Is it possible for the Office of the Clerk to create a list of sample prayers, both practically and constitutionally? So, the Arbiters of Faith article seeks to answer this question. 
 
 I suppose that this is a really long preamble to a shorter answer, which is we wanted to know whether it is possible, both practically and constitutionally, for the Office of the Clerk to create a list of sample prayers that they provide to MLAs to deliver at the beginning of each sitting of legislature. 
 
 In the article, we identified practical and constitutional hurdles that we do not think could be overcome, which suggests that A) you shouldn’t have a sample list of prayers because it would violate the state’s duty of religious neutrality, and B) making that list is an incredibly complicated and complex process.

Each decision throughout the process has both constitutional and practical hurdles to overcome. That’s why I thought I might walk you through some of those challenges so that people will get an idea of how difficult it is for the state to amend practices around legislative prayer, rather than simply abolishing the practice.

So here’s a summary of the concerns we raise in the article. The Clerk faces challenges and decisions at every stage of the process. There are challenges of identifying religions and religious groups in British Columbia and challenges with selecting a reasonable number of religious groups to ask to add a prayer to the list. Then, even at that point, it is incredibly difficult and problematic to identify which prayer should be included on the list. And even who in particular to ask to submit a prayer. Ultimately there are practical and constitutional problems at every stage of the review process. 
 
 To begin with, there is the question of what constitutes a religion. This is a question that is debated heavily in academia, anthropology, and religious studies. There’s no real answer to this question. What you often see in legal jurisprudence is the “I know it when I see it” approach. Unfortunately, this is prone to bias.

When people say ‘they know it when they see it,’ they tend to be biased towards religions with which they are familiar. This makes sense, but there is a lot of potential bias there and some religion will be oversampled. In doing this, on relying on this possible approach, you’re validating one religion at the possible expense of others.

It puts the government, and individual bureaucrats making decisions about what is or is not a religion, saying something like “Okay, Baptist, that’s a religion. Protestantism, that’s a religion. But Eckankar, Scientology, those aren’t religions.” So, some are validated over others.

That’s a problem, because the state has a duty of religious neutrality, as established in 2015 [in the Saguenay descision]. You’re not being neutral when you’re saying this belief system is a religion, and this one isn’t.

And there are also really no grounds for this basis, or any laws in Canada, that establish a clear definition of what religion is. We explore some complicated aspects of this in the article. A lot of people aren’t aware of this: Canada doesn’t have a definition of what a religion is.

As a result, you get this weird situation where, for example, CRA [Canadian Revenue Agency] says that it has a rough definition of what religions are: It is quite circular, and it excludes non-theistic religion.

For example, there was a court case a little while ago [the Church of Atheism of Central Canada v. MNR], where the judge admitted that the current usage and practices around definitions of religion in Canada exclude the non-theistic religions like Buddhism or other religions that do not have a defined ‘god.’ That’s a bit of a problem if you’re trying to say, “We’re neutral,” but you’re not being neutral when you do that. You’re saying, “We’re neutral, but only for only a narrow band of faith traditions,” which is not neutrality.

So, you have a situation where the state is put in the position of having to try to arbitrate religious dogma. In a 2004 decision, a court decision around some of these issues [Syndicat Northcrest v. Amselem], the judge decided that it is not the role of the state, nor should it be the role of the state, to arbitrate on religious dogma. Otherwise the state becomes overly entangled in these religious issues, to the point where they could be put in the position of arbitrating matters relating to religious practices or theology.

Imagine a situation where parishioners at one church might take other parishioners from that same church to court because the practice of delivering communion was changed. One group might want to be kneeling when they receive communion, the other group might want to be standing when they receive communion. It is not the role of courts to be adjudicating this kind of matter. People can probably see how this unnecessarily entangles the government with religion.

So, the first problem is that we do not know what religion is. It’s unclear in law, and there are a lot of examples of this in jurisprudence. Again, there’s no legislation defining what religion is in Canada.

Let’s say we could overcome that first hurdle, the next question comes down to which religions make the cut for inclusion in the consultation process and in the final list of sample prayers. Because there is a vast number of religions and some people would say, quite accurately, that given the diversity of beliefs out there, every single person has a slightly different religious belief. Two people sitting in the pews of the same church, for example, likely don’t agree entirely on every aspect of that religion, and their views may differ in minor or significant ways. Ultimately, we have a situation where every single person’s religion is unique.

But this aside, you also have other complicating factors. Let’s pretend we’re going to try to pick which religions to ask to submit prayers for the sample prayer list. How does the state go about picking which religions/religious groups to approach?

The government could try reaching out to the religious groups with which they are most familiar. The state knows a couple of religions are common, and members of the bureaucracy are likely familiar with a decent number of religions. So they could call representatives of the religions that they are familiar with, and ask to get their input.
 
 The first issue here is, are they asking non-religious groups? Now in this case, the office of the Clerk asked the BCHA to submit sample prayers and to participate in the review process, and this is not a common practice. It’s very often the case that when there’s a consultation with faith leaders, that leaders of nonreligious groups are not consulted. This may make sense on first blush, if the consultation is with members of various faith traditions it could seem strange to include the nonreligious, but then a huge swath of the population is excluded and the results would be biased in favour of religious believers. This is particularly relevant here, as the risk would be that there would be no non-religious or secular invocations on the list. There is an inherent faith bias.

The approach of just reaching out to faith traditions with which the government is familiar is very subjective. Here is an interesting fact that a lot of people may not be aware of. The federal government, and provincial government, has an ‘order of precedence’ list, which is basically a list of how do you introduce people at a banquet or a state funeral. For example, it starts with the Queen and it works its way down through other heads of state. Strangely, this list puts representatives of faith communities above judges, senators, and members of parliament. This is in and of itself an interesting bias in favor of religious groups. This list also doesn’t include details on which religions make the cut and which religious figures would be introduced before judges, senators and MPs, so it doesn’t offer much guidance as to helping the government decide which religions make the cut.

Instead of using ‘familiarity’ the government could instead use demographics, but this approach is also fraught with challenges. There has to be some cutoff, so the government ultimately has to decide how many believers are needed for a religion to make the cut. Could the government set a threshold of 0.5% of the population? So in other words, if 0.5% of the population follow a religion we include them as one of our sample prayer list.

But there are problems with this approach. There’s the issue of how we go about asking questions about religion and religious affiliation in the census. So, for example, in the census, they will ask people, “Which religion are you affiliated with?” But that doesn’t necessarily track with beliefs — with people’s actual beliefs. It just identifies their affiliation.

A while ago there was a survey of Quebecers, for example, which is cited in the paper: 75% of Quebecers were identified as Catholic and only 28% said they strongly believe in a God. So, this is a bit of a problem. People can culturally affiliate with a religion, even if their beliefs don’t track with all the beliefs of that religio. Secular Jews are a good example of this.

But there are other complications and problems with the Census as well. There are 70 sects of Christianity included in the census, and some estimates suggest there are 33,000 Protestant denominations. However, in the census there are no subcategories for Judaism, Buddhism, and Islam. But, for example, there’s a huge difference between Orthodox Judaism and Reformed Judaism. And this is also the case with different sects in Islam or Buddhism. So there are different levels of granularity; is the Clerk going to include one prayer from every Protestant sect and one Jewish prayer? You can start seeing how this really breaks down both practically and constitutionally.

Because the government is also making a lot of problematic choices: “This is a valid religion and this isn’t a valid religion,” or, “This is a group worthy of recognition. This is a group that is not worthy of recognition.” “This sect difference should be considered. This sect difference should not be considered.” And the government lacks a basis for making any of these choices.

So instead of familiarly or demographics, the Clerk could look at the demographics of the legislature. So, for example, the Clerk could say, “Okay, 12% of the legislature identify as Christian. We’re going to have 12% of the sample prayers being Christian prayers,” and so on, and so forth.

The problem there, of course, is that this is incredibly invasive and an issue with privacy, as the Clerk would have to ask personal questions of MLAs about their religious beliefs. And second of all, the Clerk would have to ask MLAs constantly, because people’s religious views change over time. It is not like someone is born a Christian and remains a Christian, or is born of reformed Jew and stays a reformed Jew their whole life. People’s views change over time. So the Clerk would have to be constantly asking MLAs, or at the very least do so after every election or by-election.

So these are some of the challenges associated with selecting which religions you solicit prayers from, but there are further complications. The next question that needs to be tackled it “Who do we ask to submit prayers?” Now, it is somewhat easy, for example, with religions like Catholicism, because you could ask a archbishop for prayer, but for less centralized and hierarchical religions, the situation is more complicated.

If you have religions that do not have a hierarchy, then the question of who you ask to submit a prayer is a challenge. If multiple members of a religious tradition submit prayers, the government/Clerk have no ability to decide between them, because, as we’ve discussed, the state has no ability to arbitrate matters of dogma and it can’t pick one subset over another without violating its duty of religious neutrality.

Consider, for example, a Reform Jewish Congregation from Victoria submits a prayer and then the Reform Synagogue in Vancouver also submits a prayer. The state would have no ability to arbitrate between those two prayers. How could it? The BC Government is in no position to say which sample prayer best captures the beliefs of Reform Judaism, and short of issues relating to punctuation and grammar has no basis for electing one prayer over the other, and if it did so, it would violate its duty of religious neutrality.

Moving beyond differentiating between congregations, you have other problems relating to who you actually ask to provide a sample prayer — do you ask people in positions of leadership within a congregation or members? A prayer selected by a priest, for example, may not be the same prayer selected by a lay person of the same faith. For many faith traditions, asking people in positions of leadership means asking men, as many faith traditions restrict or prohibit women from holding certain forms of priesthood or positions of their clergy. This excludes a wide range of perspectives, to say the least, and is strongly biased in favour of prayers favoured by men in positions of leadership within a faith tradition.

Assuming that all of these problems can be addressed, both practically and constitutionally, there is the outstanding matter of deciding who to ask to submit non-religious invocations.

A 2016 Insights West survey found that 69% of British Columbians claimed to not practice or participate in a particular religion or faith. Of those, 44% believed in a higher power or said they believed in a higher power. How do we possibly survey this group to ensure that their views are reflected in the sample list of prayers that are being offered by MLAs and delivered in front of the B.C. legislature? You have atheists, you have humanists, you have agnostics, but you also have people who have ‘spiritual beliefs’ or religious practices. It is a Herculean task.

As we argue in the paper, it is virtually impossible for the Office of the Clerk to derive a list a prayer for nonbelievers. First, because some of them probably won’t contribute it; second, because this is such a diverse group and the government would struggle to identify organizations that capture all of this diversity of views.

Due to the myriad of different religious sects and the diversity of beliefs among the nonreligious, the government could revert to soliciting prayers from the general public. This is one possible solution to some of the issues we outline in the paper, but it still comes with the problem of how the government could possibly pick which prayers to use from any submissions it receives, as doing so would again violate the state’s duty of religious neutrality and its prohibition on arbitrating matters of dogma.

The sheer volume of sample prayers that would likely be submitted would further complicate the ‘public submission’ approach. When the Ontario Legislative Assembly explored the issue of no longer starting their daily sessions with the Lord’s Prayer, they received 11,000 responses from the public and it basically broke their internet and their email system.

Handling any volume of public submissions would be a challenge for the Office of the Clerk, which only has a few staff and has other responsibilities to the BC Legislature. With this approach, we would basically be asking them to first sift through thousands of emails submissions while they lack the ability to choose between any of them.

Ultimately, as we argue in the paper, the Office of the Clerk faces practical challenges to selecting and drafting a list of sample prayers.

In addition to these practical issues, you have a huge constitutional challenge at every single step. Every time a bureaucrat tries to make a decision about who to ask, what to ask, what to include, they’re making choices that violate their duty of religious neutrality. This is a huge problem.

In the paper, we strongly advocated that legislative prayer be abolished for a wide range of reasons, but if is to continue, the idea of having a sample prayer sheet is problematic and should be abolished.

The BC Legislature should not have a sample sheet of prayers because that violates the state’s duty for religious neutrality.

Jacobsen: How do you define a religion?

Phelps Bondaroff: I do not think I would. I tend to define it more broadly, but any time you set up a barrier or criteria, you can find a counterexample of a religion that does not meet that criteria. If you say that a religion need a god or gods, for example, one need only point to a non-theistic religion that challenges this criteria.

I do not think it is worth noting is there are some states that have set definitions of religion. Obviously, there are problems with this approach as well. Having a set definition does allow you to hold up a belief system to it and ask “does this meet the definition,” however there are still problems. Presuming that your definition is not biased, which I think would be quite impossible to do, a set definition would allow you to at least overcome some of the hurdles that we present in the paper. But you would end up excluding many faith traditions that do not meet the definition, and I could foresee the situation arising whereby the definition would be either so broad as to render it useless, or too narrow such that it excludes too many belief systems. There are many hurdles and challenges when it comes to defining what constitutes a religion.

Jacobsen: Will there be some criteria at a minimum for inclusion as a religion without a formal set, complete comprehensive definition of religion?

Phelps Bondaroff: I can tell you with some of the legal cases I’ve talked about. But I think that the problem is that you can always find it outliers, and too many of the definitions I’ve seen become circular.

Jacobsen: And that’s why we have typing and editing.

Phelps Bondaroff: So, for example, the Canada Revenue Agency’s definition can be found in some of their policies on charities. They say that to ‘advance religion in a charitable sense,’ means to promote the spiritual teachings of a religious body and maintain doctrines and spiritual observances on which those teachings are based. There must be an element of theistic worship, which means the worship of a deity or deities in the spiritual sense.

Okay, so, let’s explore the problems of that definition. First of all, ‘the spiritual teachings of a religious body,’ that implies that there must be some organization or entity that organizes the religious teachings. This would exclude a lot of different faith traditions that don’t have central organized structures and that just follow teachings. Or the term body refers to an informal group, in which case determining the limits of that group could be a challenge.

This brings up the question of belief versus practice. We can’t see inside people’s heads. We can look at how they practice religion and then use this as an example of their beliefs, but people practice religions in different ways.

There’s been some really interesting American court cases on this front. There was a case concerning the wearing of religious symbols in prisons and the idea of folk religion. The court case was about prisoners who wanted the right to wear a cross. There were lots of concerns by the prison officials about whether this should be allowed, as they saw the wearing of religious symbols as potentially leading to violence and potentially serving as a gang sign.

there is no provision within the Bible that says, “You have to wear cross around your neck.” But a lot of people do. It is an important part of their faith tradition. Thus, wearing a cross around your neck isn’t a religious requirement written down in a book — like dietary or clothing requirements — but it is part of what is often referred to as ‘folk religion.’

So, if you were simply interpreting the Canada Revenue Agency’s policy, it is unclear what is meant by “the spiritual teachings of the religious body” and where we might find these. Do we only look at things that are written down in religious books? There’s no requirement, for example, Christians wear a cross around their neck. But that’s a common practice.

There are other questions that flow from this, like how does one interpret what is actually written down in a religious book? And who gets to make this interpretation? Which books should be consulted? Which text do you pick?

And then, of course, why rely on texts at all. Relying on rules written in religious books is necessarily biased in favour of text based religions at the exclusion of ones that might rely on oral traditions.

There are other problems with the CRA definition as well — it emphasized theistic worship. Whether this refers to a deity or deities is beside the point that it is biased in favour of theistic religions over non-theistic religions or religious practices and faith traditions.

Another problematic aspect is that there must be an element of ‘theistic worship,’ which means that worship of a deity or deities in a spiritual sense. What does that even mean? This is basically creating a more complex definition by introducing terms that are even less well-defined. I think most people would agree that defining what is ‘spiritual’ is even more complicated than defining ‘religion.’

I think there are many more papers to be written about definitions of religion, so not to go on for too long, but the idea is that any time you try to establish these kinds of criteria, to define what constitutes a religion, you can find an outlier and at a certain point a definition either includes everything or includes too narrow a range of things.

So I do not know if I would hazard a definition of what constitutes religion, because I think anything I would offer would have limitations and it would necessarily be based on my own personal biases and interests. I have looked at various religions around the world, but I’m sure I’ve missed many and have not had a chance to study others in any depth. As a result, any definition of religion I could come up with would be incomplete. I should add that it’s okay for an academic to toy with different definitions while trying to explore an issue, or to explore and establish parameters in order to present a coherent argument in a paper, but it is not okay for the state to do this because there are constitutional prohibitions on the state doing so.

Jacobsen: And so, what are some of the next steps from Arbiters of Faith paper at this point?

Phelps Bondaroff: From a practical perspective, we’re finishing up the peer review. I wanted to underscore how important peer review can be. Peer review is an amazing way of producing more rigorous research and strengthen existing work and really engaging other scholars.

When it is done, it will be published in the journal of Secularism & Nonreligion. I also hope that we have made a sufficiently strong case such that we are able to convince the Office of the Clerk to abandon their practice of creating and offering a list of sample prayers to MLAs. I hope that the B.C. legislature to completely abandons the use of sample prayers in the first place.

I would prefer, obviously, that the practice of opening sessions of the BC Legislature with prayer would be ended, but if it must continue there shouldn’t be a sample list, because any use of a sample is a further violation of the state’s duty of religious neutrality.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Dr. Phelps Bondaroff.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Jon 35: The ‘Fuck You’ Stance

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/17

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New YorkHere we talk about cult-infused politics.

*Interview conducted March 1, 2021.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, Trump came out. He’s given his first speech since his second impeachment, failing to win at the election, and the inauguration of the Biden-Harris administration. What are some thoughts on that speech? And how does this impact the secular community, especially around New York, where he’s a native?

Jonathan Engel: He’s a native of New York, but he’s really not one of our own. New York City voted overwhelmingly twice against him. So, we don’t really like him. He moved out of New York State. Technically, now, he’s a resident of Florida, which, of course, they can have him. But the nature of the speech is very interesting. It’s putting the Republican Party in an interesting position, which they all deserve, by the way. But this has become a Trump party. It is more of a cult at this point than it is a political party. You can see that at CPAC. You can see the cold nature of it. I’m not even getting into the golden statue, which is a little bit frightening, actually. But there’s not a single person who could get up on that stage without risking their life potentially and say, “Look, Joe Biden won this election, the 2020 election.”

He just did. Now, the dogma that was required to seemingly to stay in the Republican Party is that Trump really won. They have lots of people going, “Well, Trump wasn’t the only one who got up there and said, “I won.” When he lost, and lost quite decisively, one of the interesting things about the Republican Party is that they did something highly unusual this year that got some attention, but not as much as I think it should have, which is that they never bothered to put out a party platform. They never bother, which is something that political parties, the Democrats and the Republicans, do every year at their conventions. They put out a platform. This is sort of like, “Well, this is, basically, what we believe.” There are different segments of a party that some would want this and some would want that.

And there’s usually some fighting over the platform. Of course, it’s not a binding document or anything. It’s more of a statement of principles. But this year, the Republican Party did not put out a platform. They just had, basically, Donald Trump, and that is a cult. That is what we’re talking about here. People who are simply away from any kind of reality and the entire party is about worshipping one person. Like all cults, people are immune who are in a cult, or frequently immune, from any kind of rational discussion about issues or truth or anything like that. That is very frightening. But as for what it means for not just people in New York, but for this country, etc., and for what it means for, especially for a secular humanist like, me, it is very disconcerting because as a secular humanist: I believe in facts.

I believe in using the scientific method to come to our beliefs. If you’re in a cult, if whatever the great leader says, “We love him, and will bow down to him,” thenou’re going to be immune from that type of thing. So, I think it’s the eve of Trump’s speech. Again, it’s interesting he attacked more Republicans than he did Democrats in that speech because it’s all about following him. There’s no independent thought allowed and independent thought is the heartbeat of Secular Humanism of deciding for yourself, but not following the dogma, not following any particular set of beliefs. But rather thinking for yourself, using science, using evidence and coming to your own conclusions, that’s so much at the heart of Secular Humanism, what we saw at CPAC was a repudiation of that.

We saw the idea of “facts and evidence don’t matter.” The big lies are coming faster and faster. We saw the big lie. Of course, the big, big lie is that Trump actually won the election. But there are other lies that are coming to the fore as well. That are pushed at a place like CPAC and the requirement is that you believe it, whether it’s true or not; it doesn’t matter. You were required to believe it. I think that does not bode well for the country going forward.

Jacobsen: Is the individual Freethought stance more or less the New York stance, the ‘fuck you’ stance?

Engel: It’s an interesting question. Yes, I think so. I think New Yorkers are known for being brash and opinionated and feel we can say what we want. I think that is a kind of very much a New York City thing. I don’t know about New York State, but that’s a New York City thing. There are religious fanatics in New York City, but not a lot of them. That is a New York City attitude that, “I’m going to say whatever the hell I want.” There are very few sacred cows to people in New York City. It’s like if you want to call the president a jerk, call him a jerk. That’s sort of our ethos here. So, I think what went on at CPAC, which is basically the Republican Party at this point; if there’s anybody in the Republican Party who opposes these people, they’re few and far between.

And they see what happens to people who oppose Trump and his cult. So, I think that what we’re seeing here, again, from people in a New York City standpoint and a Freethought standpoint, which are, as you mentioned, similar with free speech and saying whatever the hell we want. That’s just part of it. We’re very opinionated. We tend to be a little bit on the brash side and a little bit on the brisk side. But you say what you feel and you say what you want. that we have a party that is opposed not only to get a free inquiry and where it will go, but it’s opposed to science, is opposed to facts in general, that it certainly is an anti-Freethought attitude. I would want to consider it an anti-New York City attitude. That facts don’t matter; this is all we have. It’s like, “Facts do matter. They matter and when they stop mattering”; that’s when you really get into a totalitarian mindset. It’s not the type of thing that people in New York City are going to accept.

Jacobsen: Thank you for your time today, Jon.

Engel: Speak to you next week, Scott.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Professor Burge 24: Hispanic Evangelicals, White Atheists, and White Evangelicals

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/16

Professor Ryan Burge‘s website states: “I am an Assistant Professor of Political Science as well as the Graduate Coordinator at Eastern Illinois University. I teach in a variety of areas, including American institutions, political behavior, and research methods. My research focuses largely on the intersection between religiosity and political behavior (especially in the American context). Previously, I have completed an appointment as a post doctoral research fellow at the Paul Simon Public Policy Institute in Carbondale, Illinois. While there I was an adviser on issues of survey methodology and polling, as well as providing data collection and analysis.

I have published over a dozen articles in a number of well regarded peer reviewed journals including Politics & Religion, the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, the Review of Religious Research, the Journal of Religious Leadership, RepresentationPoliticsGroupsand Identities, the Journal of Communication and Religion, the Journal of Religion, Media and Digital Culture and the Social Science Computer Review. 

In addition, my research has been covered in a variety of media outlets including The New York Times, The Washington Post, CNN, NBC, Vox, 538, BuzzFeed News, Al-Jazeera, Christianity Today, Religion News Service, The Daily Mail, Deseret News, World Magazine, Relevant, and C-SPAN. I am the co-founder and frequent contributor to Religion in Public, a forum for scholars of religion and politics to make their work accessible to a more general audience.

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about the religious self-identification, age period cohort analysis, Hispanic Evangelicals, and white atheists versus white Evangelicals.  

*Interview conducted October 12, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, as I noted, the obvious trend of an increase in self-identified Nones in surveys, also that’s the less interesting part. That’s the obvious answer to a lot of questions. Another non-obvious idea was differences in the gaps between generations who identify as Nones. Yet, another aspect that is interesting is if you stretch the timelines of generations over time, so you take cross-sections of those slices. So, when you look at these different generations, Gen X, Millennials, what’s the gap there between, 12 years ago and one year ago in terms of self-identification? Some of the days that I was noting: Gen X is 25% 2008, then 36% in 2019; Millennials 33% in 2008, then 43% in 2019. How is this slicing up as well in terms of a differentiation of self-identification in regards to religious identity?

Professor Ryan Burge: So, there’s this thing called age period, cohort analysis. It is like a whole way to think about the way we move through life because we all turn 18, but we all don’t turn 18 at the same time. And that doesn’t mean the same thing to each of us when we turn 18. So, I turn 18 in 2000. That’s a lot different from a kid turning 18 in 2020. So, what we need to do is compare 18 -year-olds from 2000 or 18-year-olds to see what the difference is that those are called birth cohorts. So, what we do is we break people into groups of five years of birth. So, like 1980-1985, 1986-1990. And we tracked those cohorts and how their religiosity changes as they age through the life cycle, and what we find is that people do become more unaffiliated as they age through. But it is not as much as you would think it is. It doesn’t go up dramatically as they age, at least until the last couple of birth cohorts with any increase as they age through. But what we see instead is where they start when they’re 18, keeps going up and up and up when it comes to religious disaffiliation.

So, every birth cohort is like two or three points more None by the birth cohort before them. And that number just keeps going up and up and up and up. And it rises slightly as they age, too. So, what’s happening is people are not disaffiliating as they age as much as they are. Every successive birth cohort is becoming less religiously unaffiliated as the prior birth cohort. And that’s just moving through, moving through, moving through. So, what we’re going to see is, not a lot of new conversions as adults, but you’re seeing the shift. Their kids are going to be more religiously unaffiliated than the next generation kids, the next generation kids, and on and on and on, until, as we just talked about, there will be a plateau where there’s going to just be a level where it hits and stops and stays there for a long time. I don’t know where that number is, but it seems like we’re coming up on it, at some point.

Jacobsen: So, Hispanic Evangelicals in this group. Why are Hispanic Evangelicals so much more Republican than non-Evangelical Hispanics?

Burge: The reality is on social issues, Hispanic Evangelicals are more conservative on social issues than white Evangelicals are. For instance, 45% of Hispanic Evangelicals think abortion should be illegal for any reason. It is only 32% for white Evangelicals and gay marriage are just as likely to oppose gay marriage. Hispanic Evangelical versus white Evangelical, however, what’s interesting about Hispanic Evangelicals is they are more conservative than Hispanics as a whole. But they’re more liberal than white Evangelicals are. They live between two identities, let’s say, of the Evangelical piece and racial piece. Immigration, they’re actually pretty moderate. And, in terms of things like the Dream Act, they’re much more moderate than your white Evangelicals are. So, they’re stuck between two worlds. What identity pulls them to the right and what identity pulls them to the left, they stay in the middle. And they could be an important voting bloc in 2020 because they’re located in some key states. It might matter. States like Ohio, states like Texas, states like Florida, states like Arizona, all these states could matter in 2020 and they could sway the election depending on how they do change their vote dramatically in 2016.

Jacobsen: What is the most conservative cross-section of America, religiously and ethnically? So, for instance, you had white Evangelicals that are conservative, who have many issues. Hispanic Evangelicals are more conservative than them. And even though Evangelicals as a category are conservative, what other variables can one add into a sociological category or set of them to make like the most conservative group in the United States?

Burge: Yes, so, the most conservative group in America, is easily white Evangelicals across the board. They’re not as concerned on social issues. They’re more concerned with things like racial issues or even economic issues, things like taxation, government programs like Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, things like that. But the most liberal group would be atheists. And I think it would be white atheists who have looked at that recently. But I would think that white atheists tend to be even more to the left of all of these, which aren’t large groups we’re talking about. Atheists are only 6% of the population and they’re predominantly white. So, you’re talking about non-white atheists, probably 2% of the population in total. But I would think that I know that atheists are most likely to identify as liberal on a spectrum from liberal to conservative more than any other group. For instance, black Protestants are primarily Democratic. Like 88% of black Protestants vote for Democrats, but they don’t identify as liberals as much. Atheists identify as Democrats, but also identify as liberal. So, it makes them more liberal than your black Protestants because black Protestants are somewhat conservative on things like views of the Bible, abortion, gay marriage, things like this. And while atheists are obviously way farther to the left on those issues. So, I think the two polar opposites are atheists. White atheists on one side and your white Evangelicals on the other side.

Jacobsen: Thank you so much for your time, as always, informative.

Burge: Always a pleasure, Scott.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Jon 34: Vetting Process for Secularist Interviews

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/15

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New YorkHere we talk about conspiracy theories and the substantial denial of the scientific method in American society.

*Interview conducted February 22, 2021.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: This is ‘Ask John 726.’ So, when you’re getting invitations for interviews, as I sometimes do, how would you approach vetting those? In particular, how would you approach vetting invitations to various religious groups, conservative, liberal, moderates, etc., for your community that you’re a leader of – in New York for the secular humanists?

Jonathan Engel: Well, my default going in is that, generally speaking; I’m willing to talk to anybody. I like the idea of discussions. But I also get the sense – because I can hopefully, I think, have a certain amount of charm – that it’s good for people who are religious to talk to somebody like me. Because afterwards, maybe, they come away with saying, “Hey, I now know an atheist who is not a really bad guy. He seems like he’s OK.” So, generally speaking, that’s just general. Generally speaking, I am open to conversation. But, of course, I want to make sure that the people I’m talking to have some sort of positive agenda in mind. I mean in this day and age, I think and say these words, but in this day and age; you’ve got to worry about your own actual physical safety.

But barring that someone’s going to get so mad at me and now they know who I am and they’re going to come after me, which is a concern, I think the other point that you want to look at is: Are you really looking to have a conversation with me, or is this like I’m going to be the featured event in a stoning? If you want to talk to me, great. If you want to yell at me, well, I have a fairly large family. I don’t need to speak to you to get yelled at. My brothers and sisters do it all the time. So, that’s the way I approach it from a general viewpoint. Generally, I’m positive about such things. I welcome speaking to anybody. But yes, I do try to be a little bit wary, just to make sure of safety concerns.

And again, what are your intentions? Do you really want to just have a nice talk and dialogue, where we can discuss our differences and, maybe, even hopefully, some similarities? Or are you looking for a bogeyman so that your parishioners can play pop the bear or something? If that’s what you’re after, then I’m not interested. But I also reserve the rivals; sometimes, you go into it and you don’t know. So, I reserve the right, if I go into it, and if that’s what it seems like it’s turning into, then I can say, “You know what folks, I don’t think this is productive. Good night,” just turn them off.

Jacobsen: Where would you draw the line on having a conversation? What groups would you not have a conversation with?

Engel: Well, any group that is in any way involved in violence, promotes violence in any way, shape, or form. I can’t see where I could find common ground with a group like that. It’s hard to say. There was a group called the Westboro Baptist Church. These people were as wild as you can get. they would go to funerals during the AIDS crisis. They would go to funerals for people who are homosexual and with signs up that say, “God hates fags.” I can’t imagine having a conversation with anybody like that, even if they’re not directly violent; it’s just there’s just no way that we can even say two words to each other without it becoming a brawl.

So, I think there are some limits. However, I don’t necessarily know that those limits involve just how religious you are. I guess even if you were really fundamentalist religious; I think that we could still potentially have a conversation. So, I wouldn’t cut that off automatically, but I would be wary about it.

Jacobsen: Where have you been in a situation in which you have had to actually do that?

Engel: I do know that I have. I’ve been in some interesting situations. I was at a high school, a little over a year ago. I was invited to a high school where they had all sorts of people from different religions, and they wanted a secular person to engage with students and things like that. Everyone, my comfort level there was medium. But the kids were great. That was the best part of it. Some of the religious leaders looked at me slightly askance. But it didn’t really bother me. They were, again, basically polite. So, that was an interesting day. But I don’t think that I’ve ever been in one before where I had to say, “Okay, I’m cutting this off because it’s gotten so far out of hand.” I think if anybody has got questions; I think I can handle them/

As I have mentioned before, I’m a lawyer. I’ve gone into court and had judges asking me questions that were completely out of left field. That hadn’t been briefed and whatever. So, I can think pretty quickly on my feet. I believe what I believe. Part of it is the confidence that comes from that, too. My position, to be honest with you, I think it’s a correct one. So, I don’t think I’m likely to be too much thrown by questions. I’ve kind of heard them all by now. A lot of them come down to the “no atheists in foxholes” thing. “What are you going to do when you’re in the final hour of life?”, “What do you think when you’re just about to die, when you’re on the death bed?”, “What are you going to say? What are you going to do?” I think I’ve handled that kind of stuff enough to go into something like that and be reasonably confident that it’ll come out okay.

Jacobsen: Yes, I’ve gotten some interview requests. Ironically, the one that I permitted was when I was writing for some fashion organizations. This is true, Jon. I was writing for them. An Icelandic fashion designer who’s now got involved with fashion design with artificial intelligence – really fascinating stuff. They asked, “Can I interview you?” I said, “Sure.” So, somewhere in Iceland, this fashion company, there’s an interview with Scott Jacobsen for her publication there now. But it seems more appropriate to send a recommendation to someone else who’s appropriate. So, for instance, what I received recently was from New York, that’s another country and on the other side of the continent. So, for me, I figured I can email someone like yourself and say, “Here’s someone appropriate. Would you be interested?” I think, maybe, that might be a reasonable policy because someone who lives in that area in New York City, the greater New York area, New York State, they can speak to those cultural concerns within an American secular New York context better than a Canadian, in a small village, in British Columbia. It’s just different, but they’re similar.

Engel: I could definitely see that. I’ll tell you. I think I told you this story before about a couple of years ago at a small dinner party with my wife and invited by people who live in my building. A couple in my building and the other people, some of whom also live in my building, but nobody I really knew. When someone asked, “Well, I think these people all kind of knew each other. We were sort of the new people who had been invited.” Someone asked me what I do. And I throw out the usual. Then I said I’m also the president of the Secular Humanist Society of New York. A woman who was there said like sort of half out of her breath, but I certainly heard it.

“I hope you’re not one of those God-haters.”

 I played it right.

I said, “Well, to be honest with you,” I said, “I don’t hate anybody.”

I certainly try not to hate anybody. I don’t think hates a good thing to carry around with you, for a person to have. The rest of that evening, the issues of secularism or religion did not come up. But I chatted with this woman. After that, every time she goes through the building, she’s like, “Oh, hi, how are you?” So, I hope that I accomplished with that. Something that I would want to accomplish with an upstate church or something, which is just show, “Here, you’ve just met an atheist. A nice guy, likable,” maybe you even like him. So, in a way that sort of normalizes our viewpoint, that’s just a different viewpoint. You have your people who believe in the Holy Trinity. You have your people who believe in Allah. You have people who believe in Buddha. You have your people who do not believe in any of those particular things.

And to be considered just another one of those groups, and that you don’t really know a person, I think any reasonable person would say, “This person may be a Buddhist. This person may be a Hindu, but I don’t know them until I get to know them. I can’t place a judgment on whether or not I like them and think they’re a good person.” It’s the same thing all along trying to get people to feel the same way about an atheist. That “he’s an atheist, but I don’t know him. Could it be that I would like him if he’s a good person?” If you can get just a few people to alter that way of thinking, I think that’s accomplishing something.

Jacobsen: John, thank you so much for your time.

Engel: It’s always my pleasure, Scott. you take care now.

Jacobsen: Take care.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Professor Burge 23: Born-Again Catholic

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/14

Professor Ryan Burge‘s website states: “I am an Assistant Professor of Political Science as well as the Graduate Coordinator at Eastern Illinois University. I teach in a variety of areas, including American institutions, political behavior, and research methods. My research focuses largely on the intersection between religiosity and political behavior (especially in the American context). Previously, I have completed an appointment as a post doctoral research fellow at the Paul Simon Public Policy Institute in Carbondale, Illinois. While there I was an adviser on issues of survey methodology and polling, as well as providing data collection and analysis.

I have published over a dozen articles in a number of well regarded peer reviewed journals including Politics & Religion, the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, the Review of Religious Research, the Journal of Religious Leadership, RepresentationPoliticsGroupsand Identities, the Journal of Communication and Religion, the Journal of Religion, Media and Digital Culture and the Social Science Computer Review. 

In addition, my research has been covered in a variety of media outlets including The New York Times, The Washington Post, CNN, NBC, Vox, 538, BuzzFeed News, Al-Jazeera, Christianity Today, Religion News Service, The Daily Mail, Deseret News, World Magazine, Relevant, and C-SPAN. I am the co-founder and frequent contributor to Religion in Public, a forum for scholars of religion and politics to make their work accessible to a more general audience.

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about the Born-Again Catholics and the rest.

*Interview conducted October 12, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Something interesting is a 2019 CCS report looking at the number of Nones – atheists, agnostics, and nothing in particulars. The Silents were sitting at 15% Boomers at 25%, Gen X 38%, Millennials are 43%, Gen Z are 47%, identifying as Nones. Now, I’m less interested in the obvious trend. I’m more interested in the gap between the Silents and the Boomers, Boomers and Gen X, because those gaps are much bigger than between Gen X and Millennials, and Millennials and Gen Z identifying as Nones. Why those big gaps of 10% and 13% compared to 5% and 4%?

Professor Ryan Burge: Yes, I think there is a plateau happening. You can see a shadow of it in the data. There’s a hard cap on how big the Nones can get in America. But I think it is right about 40%, maybe a little bit higher, 45%. But I just think there’s a strong contingent in America that is not going to give up. But the other part of this, too, we have a lot of immigrants, the younger generations who are Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and those groups too. So, if you add those groups together, then you get close to 50%. So, what’s going to happen is your Nones can never go above that; unless you get a lot of hardcore religious people to give up their faith and become Nones. I think what you’re getting right now is the low-hanging fruit. That’s what the younger Boomers and Gen X are doing. You get a lot of those people becoming Nones. But once you get to that 40, 45% threshold, I think you get a lot of resistance.

And I don’t think those numbers are going to continue to climb into the ether. They’re not going to go like 55%. I just don’t see any future in America where, at least in my lifetime, 55% of Americans are Nones because there’s just this large and strong bloc of Americans who are going to be faithful people no matter what. About half of Americans have not just a little bit more. So, I think that’s why you’re seeing that increase is slow and the generations get younger because you’re bumping up against that ceiling that’s going to be there for a long, long time.

Jacobsen: Within Catholic news or Catholic circles, there’s been a literal crisis of faith for many. Not in traditional terms, it is in real terms based on what they sincerely believe, the idea of the particular incantations during baptism being wrong for prior generations, for decades, even using the wrong words and, therefore, their baptisms becoming illegitimate in the eyes of the Catholic Church. In other words, they’re going to hell, not heaven, in their theology. Mike Pence had another situation, in which October 7th, was talking about himself as self-describing as a Born-Again Catholic. As Jerry Seinfeld would say, “What’s the deal with that?” Why is that so problematic when there is an increasing sentiment among conservative Catholics of being “devout”?

Burge: Yes, so, the Catholics, I call it the Evangelicalization of all of Christianity. The whole born again idea was an Evangelical idea rooted in Evangelical culture, Evangelical theology, Evangelical history. But I think other groups have begun to – I don’t want you to co-opt it – borrow that language. When they talk about their own faith tradition. I think for some Catholics, I don’t even look at Evangelicals and say Evangelicals are devout. They’re serious about their faith. And I’m a Catholic. I’m serious about my faith too, where a lot of people are just cultural Catholics. They’re Catholic by default. They want to say to people, “I’m Catholic. I go to Mass. I believe in the doctrines. I practice a certain lifestyle.” So, they take on that Evangelical moniker because it is a way to differentiate themselves from just the casual Catholics they see around. So, what we’re seeing is more and more people now, almost 40% of Catholics are saying they’re born again, which is crazy in some surveys.

It just doesn’t make any theological sense. And even here is the one that I look at, I saw that almost 20% of Catholics said they were born again or Evangelical in 2016. So, the numbers are increasing when it comes to these “Born-Again Catholics.” I think for Mike Pence as a way for him to say, “I like you. I know I’m Catholic, but I’m one of you. So, you don’t see me as being different or other. We’re fighting for the same causes and playing on the same team.” And I think we’re seeing more and more of that in Catholicism, this divergence between the Evangelical Catholics and the non-Evangelical Catholics. I think it poses a real problem for a church because they can’t split like many churches do. They have to fight out their differences and try to keep it all together.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Jon 33: Scientific Method Rejection and Conspiratorialism

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/13

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New YorkHere we talk about conspiracy theories and the substantial denial of the scientific method in American society.

*Interview conducted February 1, 2021.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, Canada has its own share of conspiracy theories, its own sources of spreading it. A lot of them have a lot of overlap with the United States. I’m not just talking about Bigfoot or Yeti. For the United States, those that were on the fringe entered a bit of the mainstream, got a bit of steam, impacted politics, even ended up in the deaths and murders of people. So, conspiracy theories, irrationalism, have real consequences on people’s lives. The United States, there is more freedom of thought than anywhere else in the world, by far.

So, there’s going to be a lot fewer boundaries in terms of a lot of positive things about free thought, but also a lot of the bad things about free thought in terms of the following: you can piece together any hodgepodge of materials cognitively and come up with weird theories and, hence, can become conspiracy theories. So, what are the origins of QAnon? How is this related to standard religions, as you define them in the United States, as people are taught in church and mosque and synagogue?

Engel: Well, I was curious when we watched a film, which, of course, I’ve watched so much of what happens at the Capitol on January 6. We see that there were, of course, people out there with their Trump flags, etc., and all sorts of different flags. But included, you had people, a lot of people wearing QAnon symbols and carrying QAnon banners. You also had people with banners, etc., talking about Christianity. We’re hearing the name of Jesus. I saw a film of the guy who has become known as the QAnon Shaman. Anyway, the guy with the horns and then with the fur pelts.

And the thing is he and a bunch of others of these mob mobsters, these thugs went into the Senate chamber and immediately started off with a prayer that ‘we are here in the name of Jesus Christ.’ But it’s interesting, you don’t see too many people making that connection. Because you look at QAnon which started, maybe, five years ago. It started with this idea that there was a pizza parlour in Washington D.C., where in the basement, Democrats and liberals and a worldwide conspiracy of globalists were abusing, sexually abusing, and murdering children, eating them, cannibalism, drinking their blood. Hillary Clinton, how could anybody in the world possibly believe that?

But people did. By the way, that particular pizza parlour is just a little offside the building it’s located in doesn’t have a basement. But of course, it’s in the basement where all this stuff is happening. Some died right after, in 2016, I think about the height of that insanity. Some guy drove to North Carolina to this pizza parlour with a rifle and shot into the ceiling and said, “Show me where the kids are being held.” Of course, he’s in prison now. You can almost feel bad for him because he was brainwashed. Obviously, he was not the sharpest knife in the drawer, to begin with. But you think about it, they said, “Well, how can people possibly be susceptible to believing something so out there, so insane?”

And of course, it goes without saying, so evidence-free. What I think part of the answer is, “Well, where do people learn to believe in something that they have no evidence for?” My answer to that is in church, in the synagogue, in the temple, in the mosque, because that’s where they’re taught that it is not only okay to believe in something with no evidence, but it’s a sign of virtue.

“Yes, you’re a great believer. You have faith.”

You hear a choir and go, “Oh, that’s right.”  

“So, you are. Aren’t you a good person? You’re a God-fearing person. That’s a good thing, right?”

Although, I always thought if God is as merciful and just as they say: Why should anybody be afraid?

But in any event, that’s where they learn the idea. I don’t see this outside of real secular circles in this country. I don’t see that being acknowledged that the problem starts there. That if anybody’s going to believe this craziness; that they become susceptible to believing things that are evidence-free, things that are really fantastical and evidence-free. They believe it. They’re taught from a very young age by religion that that’s a virtue. That it’s not only OK, but it’s a virtue to believe in such things. So, we shouldn’t be surprised that when they get older that they’re susceptible to believing things that are evidence-free, like ‘Donald Trump really won this election’ and ‘there’s widespread voter fraud.’

“Show me the evidence,” but that’s what I say; of course, they don’t have any. It doesn’t make any sense. Rudy Giuliani can go ahead and say, “I’ve got boxes full of evidence. But if he had them, why didn’t he show them to the courts that throw them out of court for the fact that he wasn’t producing any evidence? So, that connection in this country, that religious connection, of believing in things for which you have no evidence. As I said, it is not only okay, but a virtue. I think to me this needs a sociological standpoint. We should be investigating and thinking about, “Why are we susceptible to that?”

And I think that answer points to religion, but a religion in this country is so sacrosanct that very few people, not even liberal commentators, are willing to even broach that subject and talk about it. But I think, until we do, we’re in trouble because we’ve seen how these conspiracy theories do not lead anywhere good.

Jacobsen: What’s the percent of people in the United States who are, more or less, detached from a lot of the real world, detached from real information, so they can make valid judgments? If they don’t have accurate information, they can’t make valid judgments. I’m assuming an ability to make a rational discourse, even with the evidence. But just assuming that ability to rational discourse for them, individually, why is there so much disinformation around sufficing to make a large cohort of people believe en masse online?

Engel: Well, it’s interesting. When Trump was impeached for the first time, a lot of people were talking, making comparisons, and thinking about how this was similar to or different from the Nixon situation where he was actually impeached. But he resigned. He was headed toward impeachment. It’s pretty clear history believes they send him into impeachment, then quite possibly, or even probably, removal. I took offence to one of the things. That’s different today than back then; back then, if you got your news from TV, it was essentially ABC, CBS, and NBC News. They all played it pretty straight. They were not ideologically inclined to watch people, trusted Walter Cronkite with the news.

They did play it pretty straight. But today, of course, as we all know, there are many people who live within Fox News, Breitbart, Newsmax, etc., which is their bubble. That’s all they hear when they turn on their news at night. They’re looking at Sean Hannity and Laura Ingraham. That’s a lot different than Walter Cronkite. So, if you want to believe in these types of things, and if you are susceptible to it, it is not that hard to live within a bubble. You don’t go anywhere else. That’s where you get your news from, “I watch Sean Hannity. I go online to Breitbart. That’s where I get my news.”

So, we’re in that situation, which is very perilous for us. I do believe because people who are, again, susceptible to magical thinking almost from birth with their indoctrination into religion, then they’re susceptible to magical thinking. Then they go into an information bubble that feeds them only extreme rightwing talking points. They’re already susceptible to believing in things that have no evidence or etc. This is what you wind up with. You wind up with a whole bunch of QAnon believers. Although, I do think one thing that’s a little help is how these people really believed that Trump had some sort of magical power and that there’s no way that Biden was going to be inaugurated.

I read a few people. QAnon believers saying things like, “I was duped, wrong the whole time.” Here’s a hint. You were. But they were wrong the whole time. “I believe,” but Joe Biden gets inaugurated and right up until the moment he said “so help me God,” which, by the way, he doesn’t have to say to be inaugurated. But that’s another issue. But right up until the point, you said it, “I believe that something was going to happen, literally believe that police are going to swoop down and arrest them before he can take the oath of office and carry them away.” When it didn’t happen, some of them actually were like, “Did I?,” a little self-reflection. But it’s the type of thing that happens with the end of the world cults.

The world will end on this day. The day comes and goes, it doesn’t end. There are some people in the cults who say, “I was wrong. How did I believe this?” But there are others who will continue to press even further on, “Oh, what happened was…”, as if they have an explanation. “It didn’t end that day because we got a calculation wrong. But now, we know what the real calculation is and people who will hold on to it.” I think that’s what we’re seeing now in this country. We’re seeing some former QAnon believers realizing that; maybe, this was wrong all along. But we have a lot of others who were simply, as they say, “doubling down” this, that they’re not open to the cognitive dissonance of finding out that something they believed in so strongly was a bunch of bull is too much for them.

And so instead of acknowledging that and dealing with that dissonance, they’re just saying, “No, no, no, no, no, this is still right. It didn’t happen this way because…” and they just go further into it. But again, to circle back a little bit, I think that the religious, the extremely religious, practices in this country make people susceptible to believing in things that are fantastical and have no evidence. Until we can fight us – humanity, not just this country, but the whole world can fight its – way out of that, we’re going to have these types of outbreaks of completely irrational thinking.

Jacobsen: How have you been combating this in your tenure as the president of the Secular Society of New York? There are the skeptic communities, the humanist communities, the secular humanist communities, and the religious humanist communities. But how are you combating this in New York, which is a skeptic Golden State within a secular humanist framework in particular?

Engel: It’s interesting. Politically speaking, secularists don’t have a lot of power. There’s a lot of talk among us. I was just at an event with a bunch of other humanists in the New York area, some from New Jersey, some from Connecticut, etc. There’s a lot of talk about “How do we combat this?”, and also about the idea of us as a political bloc. There’s an old, old joke that organizing atheists is like herding cats. We’re free thinkers and, therefore, we’re not likely to be in some pigeonhole and march in lockstep together, which is what you need for political power in some ways. So, there’s a lot of talk about that.

One of the things we’re doing is we’re supporting the Congressional Freethought Caucus with donations to their members, etc. It’s only 13 members so far, but we’re hoping there’ll be more. Because one of the things, one of the tenets, is just the various types. One of their tenets is that government action should be based on evidence, evidence-based and not on dogma. I think if we can get that; the scientific method is so important. I wrote an essay on this last week or something about how we talk about science denial in this country. We largely talk about the denial of hard science like climate change.

But I think one of the real problems is not just the denial of hard science, but the denial of the scientific method. The scientific method, which says, “You have a hypothesis. You’re testing. You actually try to prove it wrong, because the only way you can know if it’s right, is that you’ve tried to prove it wrong and you couldn’t. We don’t believe things without proof and evidence.” So, I think one of the ways we try to fight with that is for people to let them know “we’re here”; “we’re a bloc looking to get our votes,” but also talking about one of our primary beliefs in our belief system: The scientific method.

Then saying, “Listen, government decisions should be based on good science, and that’s it.” So, you test. You may have a hypothesis. You try it out somewhere. You see if it works, even as much as you might believe that this is the thing, “I’m sure of it. I feel it in my gut.” If the evidence shows you that it doesn’t work, then you say, “I was wrong. It didn’t work. We have to try something different.” So, what we try to do is make that idea more widely known and talk about it, and also put it on newsletters, also in our letters to our elected representatives, “We as a bloc expect you, no matter what your personal religious beliefs are, when it comes to acting on behalf of the community in your governmental jobs, we expect you to abide by science and the scientific method, and to have policies that reflect good evidence and not preconceived beliefs.”

So, that’s one of the ways we do that. Another thing is just trying to be open about who you are. So, people can understand that it’s acceptable to not have supernatural beliefs. That the person next door could be me. He’s a nice guy who will help you with this or help you carry your packages and whatever, but has no supernatural beliefs. Hopefully, that could lead a few people to start questioning their own; I can only hope. But that’s how we roll about. We try to live a life based on reason and evidence and try to do that publicly, so that people, other people, can, hopefully, understand that that’s possible. You can live a very good life without believing in things for which you have no evidence and that really aren’t there.

Jacobsen: Jon, as always, thank you so much.

Engel: It’s my pleasure, as always Scott. Listen, you take care of yourself.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Professor Burge 22: Skin Tone, Racialism, and ‘Bible Banning’

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/12

Professor Ryan Burge‘s website states: “I am an Assistant Professor of Political Science as well as the Graduate Coordinator at Eastern Illinois University. I teach in a variety of areas, including American institutions, political behavior, and research methods. My research focuses largely on the intersection between religiosity and political behavior (especially in the American context). Previously, I have completed an appointment as a post doctoral research fellow at the Paul Simon Public Policy Institute in Carbondale, Illinois. While there I was an adviser on issues of survey methodology and polling, as well as providing data collection and analysis.

I have published over a dozen articles in a number of well regarded peer reviewed journals including Politics & Religion, the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, the Review of Religious Research, the Journal of Religious Leadership, RepresentationPoliticsGroupsand Identities, the Journal of Communication and Religion, the Journal of Religion, Media and Digital Culture and the Social Science Computer Review. 

In addition, my research has been covered in a variety of media outlets including The New York Times, The Washington Post, CNN, NBC, Vox, 538, BuzzFeed News, Al-Jazeera, Christianity Today, Religion News Service, The Daily Mail, Deseret News, World Magazine, Relevant, and C-SPAN. I am the co-founder and frequent contributor to Religion in Public, a forum for scholars of religion and politics to make their work accessible to a more general audience.

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about the skin tone, racialism, and religious freedom issues in a religiously diversifying country.

*Interview conducted October 12, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: When talking to biologists or reading of them, they’ll talk about species. They will not talk about race. But if you look at sociological conversations, they’ll talk about ethnicities. So, this is a folk, psychological, sociological reasoning coming out to the public in terms of how they’re identifying white, black, Hispanic, etc. So, when individuals in America are thinking of the category “white,” category “black,” etc., how are they identifying this? Is it just skin tone, then the assumption follows? How is this being reasoned through for most Americans?

Professor Ryan Burge: I would think it is the skin tone. I think Americans are blunt instruments. So, when they see someone, we go, “They look like me.” But also, I think, unfortunately, it goes down to like how they dress, how they talk, how they carry themselves. All those things tie into identifying racial identity. But I also think it is just, there’s this thing in American politics, especially Republicans. There’s a lot they talk about a real America, fake America, and rural America. But rural America, like small towns and villages across the middle part of the country, that don’t get a lot of play on the media, and fake America is like New York City and Philadelphia and Chicago and Los Angeles, California. There is a special divide in America.

And I think when you think of white, what they mean by “white” is “real America,” which means small-town values, Second Amendment rights, religion. It is about racial identity. It is about how they see the world. A lot of Americans just want to be around people who share their world, which makes sense to me. I believe that has to do, by the way, with how you see a lot of people who are comfortable with a more diverse climate moving to a more and more diverse climate, moving to a big city with racial diversity. People who are just comfortable and what they’re comfortable with, staying in small towns across America. And that’s what they’re comfortable with, right or wrong. So, I think it is more about “people like me.” People are good at figuring out who “people like me” are, who “share my values.” So, they just want to be around people who share their own values.

Jacobsen: So, 22% of Americans believe that a Democrat, presumably president, would ban the Bible. And 3, approximately, out of 10 Christians in America or 3 out of 10 believe that Christians’ religious freedoms are under a similar or the same circumstance. Why is this showing up in the data?

Burge: I think it is a totem pole more than anything else. It represents something. In that, I think it represents something that is not actual. I don’t think that many Republicans believe that Democrats are going to come in their House and scoop up their Bibles or put barricades on the church door. I think what they mean is that if a Democrat gets elected, they feel like they’re going to have less religious freedom and they’re going to be able to not do everything they’re used to doing. Okay, I think that’s what it is about. It is about a battle over ideas for the actuality and the idea that the Republican Party is the party of white Christians and the Democratic Party is the party of the Nones, the others, and, oftentimes, the non-white Christians.

And so, Republican politicians have been good about saying, “If you elect a Democrat, you’re going to have less religious freedom. You’re not going to read a Bible in public school, for instance, or have prayer in public school all the time. I think it is more about a symbol than it is about reality. I don’t think many Christians believe that Democrats are going to lock them up or whatever. I think what they believe is they’re going to have less freedom to practice their religion. And religious freedom is a big, big area of conflict in American politics today, things like in a Catholic school via a teacher coming out as LGBT or “do I have to make a cake for an LGBT couple if I don’t approve of that lifestyle?” These actually are really, difficult things to pass through. A difficult debate to have in a country with a lot of religious diversity.

And so, I think that the Bible thing is part of that bigger constellation of issues around religious liberty, where white Christians would have a lot of religious liberty to basically discriminate against whoever they want discriminated against. While most Americans are saying, “Yes, we believe in religious freedom, but you can’t treat other people poorly because of that.” And where those two things rub up against each other is where the conflict exists, I think those questions just happen at this larger idea about religious freedom versus pluralism and diversity.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Jon 32: To be Witnessed to Witness Change

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/09

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New YorkHere we talk about the need for the secular to stand up (and out).

*Interview conducted January 25, 2021.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, we had the inauguration with newly elected and appointed, or newly elected and put into a formal place, President Joe Biden and Vice President Kamala Harris. Now, the language is different than the language of former President Trump. Yet the current language, especially the inauguration, has more reference still to a God in a proposed secular state or country, the United States. What are some of your concerns, even still with the inauguration of Joe Biden as a devout Catholic, making references to God in his speeches now?

Jonathan Engel: Well, it is concerning. First of all, let’s start with the fact, it’s a great sigh of relief when Joe Biden was inaugurated, he, I think, is a decent person. I think he’s reasonably smart. He’s surrounded himself with good people and considering where we were; I do think that if Donald Trump had somehow managed to stay president for another four years, then it could have been, seriously, the end of American democracy. So, I’m thrilled with Joe Biden like many Americans. But, yes, the references to God all over the place at the inauguration. It made me feel uncomfortable. I wish there would be some sort of reference, at least to the separation of church and state, and the right of secular people to be free from religious influence.

I know that he is a very religious person. But secular people in this country have rights, too. It’s not right that people like me should watch the inauguration with great pride in so many ways that we’ve overcome somehow, at least, for now, four years of horror. But I shouldn’t be meant to feel in any way unwelcome. Nobody should be meant to feel unwelcome at our country’s inauguration. This is an inauguration that’s supposed to be for everybody and the constant mentions of God. I don’t think from Biden’s part that he was intentionally trying to be exclusive or anything like that. I just think he probably didn’t think of it, which is an issue for secular people. There are a lot of secular people in this country.

There’s almost certainly more secular people in the United States than there are Jews, Muslims and Hindus put together. But I know that Biden would be careful to fight for the rights of Jews and Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists. Many members of the Democratic coalition are sure he would stand up for black people and Asian people and LGBTQ people and First Nations people. But what about us? And I think part of the answer to that is something I’ve been talking about with a lot of my secular friends, which is our need to be more open and forthright and to be more visible. I liken that in some ways to the gay rights movement where gay people, in council, they’d became visible. They were never going to get their rights without visibility.

In the Civil Rights era with black people advocating for rights and for the gay rights era, where gay people were advocating for rights, there were always others who probably meant well. But who said to them, “Go slowly, you don’t want to rock the boat too much. There are allies that we have in the white community or the straight community, depending on what we’re talking about, who are uncomfortable with militant agitation,” and stuff like that. The truth of the matter is until you stand up and come out, say who you are, and demand your rights; you’re just not going to get them. So, while many of us are very reluctant to press Biden at this point to make statements in favor of the rights of secular people, we should do it. Because he’s got so much stuff to do to try to save this country from ruin. On the other hand, I think that’s when we’re going to get that acknowledgement or our seat at the table – if we stand up for who we are and what we believe.

Jacobsen: Do you think that there’s a certain amplification effect based on the sounds of many secular people? So, maybe, one out of five secular people speak out and every one of three religious people speak out, as a hypothetical. Then, even though, there’s a growing number of secular people in the United States. The number of Christians who speak out and demand the rights more forcefully with more finances have much more of an amplification per capita because more people are active and more people are speaking for their particular religious freedoms than secular people in the United States.

Engel: Yes, absolutely, one of the things that I’ve been talking about, again, with my secular friends here in New York is that we’ve probably had a discussion with a bunch of people, recently, of Islam. We were talking about how someone brought up as anybody ever in a social situation felt uncomfortable, either because somebody said something about your secularism or somebody, or you were put into a position, “Okay, everybody, let’s pray.” Pretty much everybody in the group said, “Yes, that’s happened to me, at least once.” One guy that I know, a secular friend who has a hobby of cars, like vintage cars and stuff, he belongs to the Vintage Car Association and went to a meeting with like a national meeting of vintage car lovers.

When they started, the leader of the group said, “Okay, we’ll let start with a prayer.” He felt very uncomfortable about it. He said something to somebody. It was an uncomfortable situation. I understand that. I’ve had that happen to me, too, where I mentioned that I was a secular humanist.

“You’re an atheist…”

“…Oh my, you’re an atheist…”

“…You’re what?”

This assumption that I’m a horrible person. So, it’s difficult to speak out. I don’t know why the word “atheism” or “atheist” is so frightening and negatively weighted for so many people. To many, it means “bad person.” Logically, why should that be a bad person? Well, Of course, it shouldn’t happen in mind, logically; it makes no sense. But yes, it does inhibit us. So, since we are inhibited from speaking out for our mates, I think that it does hurt us from achieving the things that we want to achieve from a secular standpoint.

There are a lot of things I would like to achieve in our society, which have nothing to do with secularism or religion. But other things, I’d like to be in a country in which they observe the separation of church and state, especially in the government, very strictly; in which there’s an understanding that not everybody is religious, therefore, when we have rituals like an inauguration, it should be inclusive of people like me. I got to tell you. As much as I felt a lot of good feelings about this inauguration, I also felt a little bit like the outsider looking in because of all the mentions of God. Which every day, anything we’re talking about, when anybody mentions God, they’re always talking about their own. But it’s not right. It shows that we’ve got work to do.

Jacobsen: John, thanks so much for your time, as always.

Engel: Ok, Scott, listen take care, make sure you keep getting some sleep. [Ed. This is a common comment from friends – ‘get some sleep and stop working so much.’ To all of them, I love you – much, and noted.]

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Professor Burge 21: The Death Penalty and the Decline of a Majority

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/08

Professor Ryan Burge‘s website states: “I am an Assistant Professor of Political Science as well as the Graduate Coordinator at Eastern Illinois University. I teach in a variety of areas, including American institutions, political behavior, and research methods. My research focuses largely on the intersection between religiosity and political behavior (especially in the American context). Previously, I have completed an appointment as a post doctoral research fellow at the Paul Simon Public Policy Institute in Carbondale, Illinois. While there I was an adviser on issues of survey methodology and polling, as well as providing data collection and analysis.

I have published over a dozen articles in a number of well regarded peer reviewed journals including Politics & Religion, the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, the Review of Religious Research, the Journal of Religious Leadership, RepresentationPoliticsGroupsand Identities, the Journal of Communication and Religion, the Journal of Religion, Media and Digital Culture and the Social Science Computer Review. 

In addition, my research has been covered in a variety of media outlets including The New York Times, The Washington Post, CNN, NBC, Vox, 538, BuzzFeed News, Al-Jazeera, Christianity Today, Religion News Service, The Daily Mail, Deseret News, World Magazine, Relevant, and C-SPAN. I am the co-founder and frequent contributor to Religion in Public, a forum for scholars of religion and politics to make their work accessible to a more general audience.

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about the death penalty, declining numbers, immigration, and identity.

*Interview conducted October 12, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, 40% of Catholics oppose the death penalty since the late 80s, 90s. That’s up 25%. Is the 25% up out of a total or 25% higher than the prior number?

Professor Ryan Burge: So in the end, around a quarter of Catholic supporters were opposed to the death penalty in 1990. So, that means 75% were in favor. And now by 2018, it is 40% oppose and 60% favor of the death penalty. That’s actually a pretty significant shift because they’re getting close to like 50/50. I think the death penalty is one of the most interesting aspects of American religion or politics, because it used to be an issue where if you’re a conservative, you were opposed to the death penalty. But now I think with the advent of DNA evidence, it is the things like the Innocence Project, where if you were wrongly accused of crimes and put in prison for a long time, I think you are realizing a lot of people in America are wrongly accused and wrongly jailed. And that’s giving people a lot more hesitation when it comes to the death penalty, realizing they have probably killed innocent people before.

Now, it is still an issue where most Americans do favour the death penalty. But it is an issue that’s changed, which I think it’ll be interesting to monitor that in 10, 15, 20 years as we hear more stories about this. If people of faith especially, and I think Catholics, are interested because they believe in what’s called a Consistent Ethic of Life, which means that life should be protected at the beginning, the middle, and the end; which means they’re opposed to abortion, but, they’re also opposed to the death penalty. So, if they believe the teachings of the church, they should be opposed to the death penalty as much as, if not more than, they’re opposed to abortion, which we actually don’t see. So, if you see the Catholic teachings, they are amongst Catholics going forward.

Jacobsen: Why do 55% of white Evangelicals in November of 2019 think there should be a reduction in legal immigration by 50%, with half of white Catholics agreeing with the same proposal? And atheists only sitting at 13%, agnostics at 18%, and Jewish peoples and Buddhist people sitting at 23% and 24%, respectively. What’s the reasoning there? How do ethnic and religious identities coincide there?

Burge: OK, so, there are two ways to look at this. One is that it is about conservative politics and conservative politics or anti-democratic across the board, both legal and illegal. There’s been a lot of discussion in America that immigrants are taking jobs away from Americans, are driving down wages for Americans, especially unskilled labour, things like factories. But I think it is pretty hard to ignore the fact that a lot of white Christians are xenophobic and potentially racist. They just don’t like America becoming less white. I think one of the important narratives in American politics is that America is becoming less and less white every year and less and less Christian every year. We’re up to the point now where in probably the next two or three years, less than half of Americans are going to be white Christians when we used to be a country of 75% or 80% white Christian.

So I think the reality is a lot of white Christians are scared about that future and they think if they stop immigration, it will slow that decline of white Christians and will allow white Christians to keep the majority in America, keep the power in America. So, that’s what Trump was about. Make America great again is what harkening back to a time of white Christians, held a lot of sway in American politics. And they don’t as much anymore. They’re losing power every year. So, I think a lot of this is tied up with power politics and realizing at some point they’re not getting a majority. They’re not going to run the country as they used to. And they want to keep it as long as they can. So, yes, that’s the reality, which is that white Christians did not want to see brown faces in their country.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Jon 31: Capitol Jacquerie

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/08

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New YorkHere we talk about the attack on Capitol Hill.  

*Interview conducted January 11, 2021.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: It has been a few weeks since our last session. There have been some drastic events, some expected events. Most drastic was January 6th. There was more or less an insurrection or a rampage against and in Capitol Hill by members of a Trump supporting group, squad. So, what seems to be the case around the instigation for all of this? Why didn’t Trump join them, even though he said he would join them?

Jonathan Engel: A couple of things. I’ll answer the second question first. Why didn’t Trump join them when he said he was going to join them? He is a coward. I think he’s a very, disturbed human being. And he is someone who is a malignant narcissist. And I worked for years at the New York State Office of Mental Health. And I’m not a mental health professional, but I learned enough to know that personality disorders are extremely difficult to treat. And he is one of the most severe and malignant people, (malignant) narcissistic personality disorder. So, not only is he a narcissist; he is also a sadist. He likes seeing violence. He likes his people beating them up. And if you don’t believe me, all you have to do is hear a set of clips from his rallies talking about “beating this guy up” and “throw them out” and “don’t be too nice” and all the rest of that thing. So, you have that personality disorder. And again, he likes the violence, but he’s a coward. He would never personally, actually, talks a big game, but he would never actually lead them in that march. That was never going to happen.

But as to the lead up to this, it is something that is absolutely astonishing to me as well as makes me nauseous. Is that the entire objection that is now being voiced by millions of Americans, by hundreds of members of the United States Congress, are all based on his disturbed personality? There’s never been any evidence or proof that there was any problem with this election. Not a single iota that’s mentioned. But Trump says that, they believe it; and that’s it. It is one of the things that as a secular humanist that bothers me so much about this. And there’s so many. But one of them is the idea that we should be living in some evidence free world where “I believe” and “I think” and “I feel,” “in my opinion,” substitutes for actually gathering evidence and presenting that evidence in a reasoned way. So, you had that Trump, remember this too; Trump has never lost at anything that he didn’t say was fixed against him. In 2016, the Iowa caucus was the first Republican primary. He lost to Ted Cruz. And immediately after, Ted Cruz ‘stole’ it. ‘You stole it from me.’ When? Before the election against Hillary Clinton in 2016, Trump said if it is rigged, it is rigged against me. He was hedging his bets so if he lost; he just said, ‘That’s why I lost.’ This is a sick man. You can’t just say, “I lost, it happens.”

And then, of course, even after the 2016 election, he was saying, “We lost the popular vote.” ‘The only reason I lost, the vote was rigged. And then before this election, same thing happened. The only way I can lose, if it is fixed and rigged against me. So, we’re talking about an evidence free person with a personality disorder, but his followers have become conditioned to living in an evidence free conspiracy theory world. And some people bought it. But that Trump has a damaged personality, I know. And he has followers. Yes, it is depressing.

But one of the worst is that; you have people in Congress saying, “Yes, I’m going to vote against certifying this election.” People like Josh Hawley and Ted Cruz and Kevin McCarthy: Don’t tell me that they don’t know that this was all a joke. It is the cynicism of voting to not certify this election. Because you think it can somehow benefit you down the road politically, or maybe, ‘Trump supporters will support me for president in 2024,’ when there’s no evidence supporting this, is detestable. Certainly, there’s a lot of talk now. What’s going to be done? I mean about the people who voted to contest the election without having any evidence or proof, etc. What is going to be done with these people? Remember this thing about counting the electoral votes on January 6th? I saw Senator Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota, who has been in the Senate for quite some time now. She was saying someone asked her in previous years, when you every four years we’ve experienced this, the counting of electoral votes. What was that like? And Klobuchar replied, ‘I don’t know. I don’t even remember.’ It took 20 minutes. It was nothing – it seems – at the ministerial level, clerical. It is counting the electoral votes, and just confirming nothing. It is supposed to happen here, but it didn’t. So, this is where we are in uncharted territory right now, and whether pieces should be going to be put back together again does remain to be seen.

Jacobsen: Do you think there’s going to be another violent act, large scale event, similar to what we saw on Capitol Hill, whether on Capitol Hill or off in another part of the country? Or do you think this will merely be a manner of online virulent conversation and ranting? So, more of an online thing rather than offline thing.

Engel: Boy, that’s right. I don’t know which is an easy answer, but I think part of me said that I’m just questioning myself. Because my initial reaction when you ask the question will be to say, “I don’t think this is going to happen again.” For a number of reasons, I think people are repulsed by this. I think there are some repercussions that are already happening. I think something like close to 100 people have already been arrested. Again, these geniuses not wearing masks. Not only are they spreading Covid, they’re also saying, “Hi, FBI, here I am, come and get me.” So, I’m hoping; that’s the hopeful part of me.

But then I look and say, “Man, I never would have guessed that this would happen in the first place. And then, every state is going to have a heightened security for the next couple of weeks around important state buildings, around all federal buildings, so you’d better be prepared. There was not an excuse for the lack of preparation on January 6th. There’s certainly no excuse for any lack of preparation over the next week or so. And it all culminates, of course, in the inauguration of Biden. And think about it, who’s going to be there? Because Pence saying he’s going to be there. Now, of course, Trump is not going to be there. He will be wobbling around the golf course somewhere, I assume. But you’re going to have Biden and Harris, the incoming president, the vice president. You’re going to have Pence. McConnell will be there. McCarthy will probably show his ugly face [Laughing], is going to be there. Chuck Schumer is going to be there. President Clinton is going to be there. President Bush is going to be there. President Obama is going to be there. I don’t know if President Carter is well enough to travel there, but, this is essentially like a real test of where we’re going forward and if this inauguration is going to go off the way it is supposed to. If I had to guess, I would say that it is because I think that the people who are organizing, and certainly those from the incoming Biden administration, know the importance of this. This isn’t just a regular inauguration. This is showing the world that we’re going to reckon with this and move forward as the United States of America, as a democracy, as a constitutional republic. That is so essential. And I think that people understand that. I’d have to think the Secret Service understands that. And so, they’re going to do what it takes to make sure that this goes off, and it goes off safely.

Because if it doesn’t. Boy, oh, boy, I don’t want to think about the ramifications of if it doesn’t, the future of this country. So, I’m going forward saying, “Yes, this is going to go off and it is going to happen and it is going to be what it should be.” I think that that’s going to be the case again, because the ramifications of not being the case are frightening to contemplate. And by the way, if for some reason these lunatics were able to – at noon on January 20th – disrupt the inauguration, so that Biden couldn’t be inaugurated: Who is the president? Nancy Pelosi. It is a terrible thing, right? But that’s all it is, because Trump will not be president at noon on January 20th, no matter what happens. Pence will no longer be vice president. If he doesn’t inaugurate a new one, then you go down the chain and the third person in line for the presidency is the speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi. I don’t think that’s what the Trump aides particularly want. But these people are not famous for their deep thinking. But I would say, “Yes, I think it is going to go on as it should.” And then hopefully, we will slowly but surely start to get our way back to some sanity.”

Jacobsen: John, thank you as always.

Engel: Ok, Scott, thank you much. And I’ll speak to you in a week and see what I’m saying then.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Jon 30: Secular Humanism, Accountability, and the Scientific Method

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/07

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New YorkHere we talk about the cusp between administrations.

*Interview conducted January 18, 2021.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Ok. Let’s consider this a cusp interview between one administration and another. What would you have to say about the country coming together in the midst of its massive levels of separation on pretty much every metric?

Jonathan Engel: Well, it’s interesting. There are a number of people who are pointing out that you can’t have unity without, first, accountability, and that’s important. But I also think as a humanist, and this is something that’s important to me. I also think that there has to be some concept of the common good. One of the things that I have seen that has been most distressing, again, is this whole idea that we’re all in this for ourselves, every person for themselves. And I understand that there’s sort of a cultural history of that in this country, in the United States, with the ironic concepts of rugged individualism, etc. But there are certain things that just require community involvement and require looking at the good of everybody. I am sure that there are other countries where wearing a mask to prevent the spread of Covid has been at times contentious.

But this country has been saying it’s been really contentious, etc. And why would that be? And it’s one of the things as a humanist that’s frustrating to me, which is: Listen, if I knew you can do a blood test to tell me tomorrow that I knew that I was immune to Covid, but that I could still pass it. I would like to think that I would still wear a mask, even though I couldn’t get it. But I would, “But I’m going to wear a mask because I have to protect the people around me.” And just too many Americans don’t think this way. By the way, here in New York City, which has done better with the virus, probably than many other places in the United States. When I go outside, I wear a mask and pretty much everybody’s wearing a mask. But there are lots of parts of this country where that’s not the case, where people say, “I don’t want to,” and that’s it.

And for those people in that situation, one of the things as a humanist that distresses me the most is that lack of the feeling of the common good. Lack of saying, “Well, I don’t want to wear a mask. I don’t really think I need it, but I don’t want to potentially hurt somebody else. Because we’re all in this together. I don’t want to hurt anyone. I just don’t want my actions to hurt anybody else,” as opposed to, “Well, I like my actions. I’m going to take them. And if they hurt you, too bad.” That is something I find very distressing. Again, as a humanist.

Jacobsen: What do you make of the amount of security, militarized security required for this upcoming inauguration? And what do you make of the effective seeing of this as a stolen election? Therefore, this inauguration is fundamentally ‘illegitimate.’ On the other hand, individuals who see this as a struggle since the November election coming to a head on January 20th with an inauguration that was punctuated on January 6th with what some have termed a “riot” or a “protest, while others have deemed it an attempted “insurrection”, which, I may add, came with open prayers right in the center of the Capitol building.

Engel: I want to address these things. Yes, that was what we saw there, which was white Christian nationalism. That’s what we saw. A belief that the United States is for white Christian straight men and white Christian straight women who are willing to be subservient to those men. And so, we’ve been seeing a lot more video coming out of them, “We do this in the name of Jesus Christ,” and things like that. So, I think that’s an important element of it. In terms of militarization, it is distressing. Yet I am in favour of it. For one thing, I think it’s critically important that we have an inauguration, as usual, that goes safely and proceeds the way it has always proceeded on January 20th. And if it takes this many troops to make sure that everything goes peacefully and smoothly, then I think that that’s what we need to do.

It’s very distressing. I mean this is not a country that’s used to do that kind of thing. We’ve seen it in other countries, of course. But we’re not used to it. But I would say if that’s what it’s going to take, then we should go ahead and do it. Just a touch, on one more thing we talk about, one of the things that I see as a long-term problem in this country is science denial. And I see that in a couple of different ways. But you look at one of the things about science denialism is a denial of the hard science like climate change. But another thing that I think is even more insidious in some ways is the denial of the scientific method, which is to say you have a hypothesis, you gather evidence to test the hypothesis. You try to see if it’s right or wrong.

And so, when you’re talking about the election and all those people in this country who are still saying the election is stolen, it in some ways as a humanist; I see that as a denial of the scientific method because of their beliefs and accusations are evidence-free. So, if you believe in science, when someone says this election was stolen, you’re going to say, “Well, what evidence do you have of that? What proof do you have of that? Why should I believe that? Have you really tested it?” And of course, the answers you get are, “Well, that’s where I think,” “That’s what I believe.” And to paraphrase the late great writer Isaac Asimov, ‘Democracy doesn’t mean that your ignorance is as good as my knowledge.’ If you want me to believe that, then you have to come forward with proof.

Trump wants all sorts of lawsuits. 60 lawsuits he filed to overturn this. And they were all thrown out of court. Why they were thrown out of court? Not on procedural matters. [Ed. Engel is a professionally trained lawyer.] They were thrown out of court because the court said, “Well, if you want me to entertain this, you have to give me some reason to think that this might be true.” And they didn’t give anything because they didn’t have anything. So, if there’s no evidence for it, a secular humanist will say, “Well, then I don’t believe it.” But there are so many people in this country who deny the scientific method for many of them, for religious reasons. Not all, but many of them for religious reasons. And for them, if whatever it is someone tells them or they hear or whatever, then it is ‘as good as my knowledge.’

And truth be told, it really isn’t that I see this as a great challenge for this country or society going forward. The two ideas are key, one that I mentioned before, the need for the common good; and the other, the need for the scientific method and not believing things, because they support your underlying beliefs or they support your dogma or whatever. But believe in things because there’s evidence for that. And that’s what I believe. And if there’s no evidence for it, then I’m not going to believe it.

Jacobsen: John, thank you very much for your time.

Engel: It’s always a pleasure, Scott. Listen, you take care now.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Professor Burge 20: Education and Religiosity, LDS and Women, and Romney

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/06

Professor Ryan Burge‘s website states: “I am an Assistant Professor of Political Science as well as the Graduate Coordinator at Eastern Illinois University. I teach in a variety of areas, including American institutions, political behavior, and research methods. My research focuses largely on the intersection between religiosity and political behavior (especially in the American context). Previously, I have completed an appointment as a post doctoral research fellow at the Paul Simon Public Policy Institute in Carbondale, Illinois. While there I was an adviser on issues of survey methodology and polling, as well as providing data collection and analysis.

I have published over a dozen articles in a number of well regarded peer reviewed journals including Politics & Religion, the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, the Review of Religious Research, the Journal of Religious Leadership, RepresentationPoliticsGroupsand Identities, the Journal of Communication and Religion, the Journal of Religion, Media and Digital Culture and the Social Science Computer Review. 

In addition, my research has been covered in a variety of media outlets including The New York Times, The Washington Post, CNN, NBC, Vox, 538, BuzzFeed News, Al-Jazeera, Christianity Today, Religion News Service, The Daily Mail, Deseret News, World Magazine, Relevant, and C-SPAN. I am the co-founder and frequent contributor to Religion in Public, a forum for scholars of religion and politics to make their work accessible to a more general audience.

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about college, the LDS, and Mitt Romney.

*Interview conducted October 12, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Now there is a myth, semi-myth, in the secular communities, the idea of entrance and completion of college-level education leading to fewer people identifying with a religious belief system. This isn’t entirely true. Individuals who go into college are more likely to both become atheist/agnostic and/or Protestant/Catholic. The main difference is that those who do not have college are more likely to be nothing in particular. Is there a phenomenon of more crystallization of the belief structures more than anything there?

Professor Ryan Burge: I think the things that are making people atheists, agnostics are not the college experienced. I think for a lot of these people who are already believing that way before they go to college and then they go to college. They find themselves because they break from the structures that they were raised in the church, their family and their community and their parents and all these things. So, I think that being more likely to go to college also means you’re more likely to be exploring your faith, exploring your values, exploring your sexuality, exploring your gender identity, exploring all of these things. So, I don’t think it is college necessarily. And by the way, I had other scholars, coming by that I published on this, and they showed the same thing, that it does not make people more religiously liberal or more likely to be unaffiliated. In fact, it is not the college. We’re starting to believe that it is not that going to college that causes people to become more liberal. It is because people are already liberal. They want to go to college.

So, it is something before all this. Some deep held belief or values that you have are more likely make people go to college, but also more likely to be politically liberal and more likely religiously unaffiliated. It is not that college accelerates any of that. If it does, it doesn’t do it by a lot. Instead, it just reinforces this journey that you’re already on by putting you in rooms with people who are diverse from you politically, religiously, racially, all of these things. I think that helps you on that journey. But you are going to get there anyway. They’re being turned into atheist long before they go to college and going to that philosophy class, gives them ammunition. But they already were trending that way anyway. You can’t blame college for any of that stuff.

Jacobsen: What is the gender gap among the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints members?

Burge: Yes, so, the gender gap is really important in this election because there’s been some polling that shows the gender gap is larger now than at any point in which we have polling data for, which means that, typically, women are more likely to vote for Democrats and men are more likely to vote for Republicans. But now, it is larger and larger. And I think data said the gender gap now is 20 points, which means that women are more likely to vote for Democrats and men for Republicans. But if you look at LDS, there’s this discussion of female LDS. What are they? Are they different than their male counterparts? And the reality is, it does look like there is a gender gap there that men are stronger for the president, President Trump, than are women. Female Mormons are about 10 or 15 points less supportive of President Trump. And if you believe the data for June, which is the latest data we have, only half of female Mormons said they were going to vote for Trump or approved of Donald Trump in June of 2020, which is bad.

You would expect it to be a lot higher from LDS, typically Republican, conservative. So, to see those declining numbers means that Trump is losing with LDS. And he’s also had a problem with LDS, by the way, only got 55% of the LDS vote in 2016, a lot of which has been polling to Hillary Clinton. But, 80% voted for Romney and only 55% voted for Trump in 2016. So, he’s got a weakness there and it can hurt in places like Arizona. So, he needs to do better, especially with Mormon women.

Jacobsen: During the impeachment process, Mitt Romney voted against him.

Burge: Yes, that is correct. Mitt Romney has been one of the few voices of judicial independence or partisan independence in American politics, which means that sometimes he went to a Black Lives Matter rally, which I thought was interesting. And when someone asked, a reporter asking, why he goes, because the “black lives matter.” And like – whoa, most Republicans wouldn’t even say that, let alone go to a rally. So, he is somewhat independent. But when it comes to the Supreme Court, he has decided he wants to go vote with their person for the Supreme Court. So, he’s not completely independent on the Republican Party, but he’s definitely bought the old style like maverick Republican that would break with party ranks on certain issues. But he’s still pretty far to the right on a lot of issues as well.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Interview with Dr. Michael Friedman on Hardcore Humanism

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/05

Dr. Michael Friedman is a Co-Founder of Hardcore Humanism. Here we talk about his personal story, ideas, and development of Hardcore Humanism.

*Interview conducted June 6, 2020.*

Scott Jacobsen: So, what’s in the family’s personal story to set a ground framework for some of the discussion today?

Dr. Michael Friedman: Yes. So, I think that there are two strands of the story that are relevant to developing Hardcore Humanism as a concept. For me, one was as a trained clinical psychologist. I was struck by the times, frustrated by how almost every approach to understanding and treating people started with the same fundamental premise that: if you come into our office, there’s something wrong with you and we have to figure out what it is and we’re the only ones who can do it. So, maybe it was a psychodynamic approach and you have this deep, dark, unconscious conflict that happened, maybe, before you were in cognitive therapy where you have these cognitive distortions or irrational flaws that was a lot of a language. Or maybe, it is a behavioral approach where your reinforcement systems were done incorrectly or whatever it was.

It all was some fundamental way of saying that you’re crazy for lack of a better way of saying it, except for humanistic psychology. Humanistic psychology, a quarrel with this notion that people have fundamental value. The approach to treatment which depending on who you look to as the philosopher or therapist for unconditional, positive regard, which is acknowledging the working people and helping them actualize. They could become the person that they wanted to be. I think that one of the things that happened as I was training, humanistic psychology had fallen out of favour in terms of research and things like that, because they fundamentally disagreed with the concept of any scientific approach. They didn’t think it captured the human experience. So, they rejected that.

And so, I think that in terms of studies or grants, or anything like that. It didn’t lend itself to that world. So, it became marginalized as far as more of the more popular theories at the time, e.g., cognitive behavioural therapy and interpersonal therapy, which became more popular because they took an empirical approach. So, I was working with people. I started to notice that those models didn’t seem to work for me, personally. I didn’t like applying them. I didn’t like sitting, having someone lay down on a couch, and sitting behind them or being a blank slate, where I was only nodding and withholding any reaction, I didn’t enjoy pointing out their logical errors. It didn’t feel right to me.

And so, what I noticed, there was this rhythm that started to happen where it was basically, “How do I pull away the things that interfered with people’s development? How do I help them understand and find their purpose? And how to help them really work hard to get it?” Those seem to be like the three ingredients that needed to happen for somebody to get better. What happened on the separate side was that on a personal level, I started in my 30s. I started playing music for the first time. I never had done that before. I had always seen a band that was a cover band. I thought it was like the greatest thing in the world because I have never seen that. So, I said to my friend, “I want to sing a song in a bar band, like once. That’s like a goal of mine.”

So, I tried out before a band that was like an alternative rock band. I can’t sing. So, what happened, I went into the audition. I thought they are all going to be people like me who didn’t have experience. But they sounded like professional musicians. They asked me to jam with them and sing based on what they were doing. I was like, “I do not even know how to sing, like I can’t.” I thought I might be able to sing like a track with a couple of songs and then I will excuse myself. So, it was so upsetting. I was sitting there for like a half-hour. He didn’t say anything. The audition was only a half-hour, so I read it to the end. I got so upset that I started screaming into the microphone and then the audition was over.

And so the guy called me back, he said, “We’re going to do an alternative rock band. But I think with your voice, I was thinking, maybe, we could do more of a thrash or a hardcore band.” I remember saying to him, “This is awkward. I do not know what those words mean. I feel bad because I appreciate what you’re saying, but I do not know what you’re talking about.” So, eventually, I learned about the genre. I learned that my style was a little bit more appropriate for that. I’d never listened to that music growing up. But then we wound up playing together for about ten years in a band that was called out Zero, which was basically a local band. But we played together for about ten years and we did three records. We would like to play.

And we had these little moments, where we got to Boston; we went to Chicago. It changed my whole way of looking at things for a couple of reasons. One was that I hadn’t been so excited about something in a long time. I have always grown up loving music and listening to music over and over and over again. But I do not have any talent for it. So, the idea of playing music was not something that ever occurred to me. But all of a sudden my playing shows at these places that others have been playing at like Continental or going up to Boston and then playing with these bands that I had heard of before that were on the radio – opening for them. It was really special.

What I noticed happened when I did that, the world split into two parts. There were the people who were either super psyched for me or, at least, supportive, even if they didn’t get it or dig it. Then people who were like, “Huh?” I had people who I had been friends with for decades. It is like people who came and asked, “Are you that disturbed? I do not get what you’re doing.” I got all the screaming and the thrashing and the jumping around, and you’re on the floor and all this stuff. It was powerful for me because what I realized was that there was something happening in my life that was similar to what was happening with my patients, which was I had this thing in India. It was like a little bit different from how I came into the world. it was like I did grew up in the world with hardcore punk and thrash metal. I grew up in a world with I listen to rock and I listen to hip hop.

But it was much more mainstream to a certain degree. it was interesting how upsetting it was, like the way different people treated me. Those things and sifting through that and being like, “I want to play this music.” Then all the things that went into being an independent band, like writing songs, recording them, playing shows, and promoting, and contacting labels and contacting radio stations. It was an exhilarating experience. But I realized that I was starting to play out a lot of what I was doing clinically. I didn’t even realize I was doing that clinically. I didn’t know. When I started seeing at myself, I said, “Oh, maybe, that’s what I should do even more,” and fast forward a little bit, I’d always done more academic work.

And so, I do grants. I’d study depression, treatments for depression, and people with chronic disease, doing anything in the pop world was a, “No, you never do it. You do not write pop books. You write articles for science, peer-reviewed scientific articles.” When I got out of academics, which coincided with when I was playing music, I worked with this company that, basically, was a preventative health care company. They basically said, “Listen, it is our 100-year anniversary as a publicist, go out there and write as many articles as you can, put our name under it on topics having to do with health.” So, I did that for a while. Then I was writing an article on the LGBT community. What happened was the guy who produced our second album, the guy, Joey Z., from the band called Life of Agony, which was like a New York metal hardcore band.

Their singer was the first heavy metal transgender singer and had come out as transgender. So, instead of me talking about the LGBT community, I’d written a couple of articles on that topic. I was like, “Maybe, I should talk to her.” When I talked to her, and I got her perspective, I was like, “This is a lot more fun than what I was doing before.” So then, I started calling up anybody who I knew, who was a hero of mine. So, I would look up online. I’d be like, “Here’s Barry Beck,” who was a hockey hero. I grew up with Barry. I was a Rangers fan of Barry Beck, who was a famous Ranger hockey player; or Theo Fleury and others, then I would contact different musicians.

So all of a sudden, I started doing it a lot. Then I noticed that almost all of those people who were successful went through that same process. They had a point in their life where people thought they were weird people, thought they were different people, thought that their ideas were unconventional. They had that choice point, “Do I succumb to this pressure, or do I move forward?” And they would move forward and then they would figure out, “What is it that I want to do in my life? What’s my purpose?” And then they would work intensely for it. So, all of that came together. So, now, what was happening in my clinical world and my personal life and then in my writing was all lining up, that’s where we came up with the idea of Hardcore Humanism. Because there was originally this thing called Hardcore Punk, and there was Punk.

We’re going to be more intense. We’re going to be more revolutionary. We’re going to be more aggressive, more confrontational. So, “We’re not Pop. We’re Hardcore Pop.” So, the idea was like, “We’re not going to be humanists. We are going to be Hardcore Humanism.” So, old school Humanism, I think it did a great job in helping people feel like unconditional, positive regard and the freedom to go and do what they wanted. But I have learned a lot doing behavioural medicine where there’s a lot of stuff that you could do that still helps you along the way, which I do not think robs you of your sense of who you are as a human being.

And I think that from most of the things that I worked with, whether it was sleeping better, eating healthier, exercising, any of those things, it was a lot of work. So, we developed the Hardcore Humanism philosophy, which is, basically, three things. It was not so nuts, which is the idea that people might tell you you’re weird. You might think you’re weird. You might think you’re off crazy. You do not fit in. But our view is like, “No, that’s you. That’s your uniqueness. That’s something special about you. What is that purpose-driven health, which is the idea, you want to organize your life in the context of your purpose, which helps a lot. We can talk about that more later, which helps a lot in terms of how to move forward and understand the choices that you make.

And then what we call “heavy fundamentals,” which is most of the things that you have to do in life are simple, but difficult. There’s nothing that I’m going to be able to tell you about your relationship with your mother that’s going to change the fact that the donut is better than the carrot. like, it is nothing that we’re going to do in therapy that’s going to help that. It is hard, until it is not at some point. You getting healthy eventually feels better. But in the beginning, going to the gym hurts, stopping smoking hurts, giving up drinking hurts, finding yourself in unhealthy relationships hurts because they’re usually gratifying at the beginning.

There are all kinds of things like that. So, the idea is: How can you put those elements together? And that’s the same with Hardcore Humanism. So, what we have is this philosophy and treatment program, but then we’re also going to do weekly interviews with an artist. We’re going to talk about having a podcast. We’re going to have them write articles about them. We do a video about them, so we can learn their process and particularly those three concepts, because, again, they almost always go through that cadence. It is a bit of a long story, but there it is.

Jacobsen: How does pushing the boundaries of the inherent goodness of people in a therapeutic context bring about a wider range of possibilities in which people can actualize their goodness?

Friedman: I do not know why we do this to ourselves, because nobody likes it. It is like bullying or like talking about people behind their backs or gossip in general. Like, we do not like any of these things. Nobody likes to be made to feel weird. Nobody likes to be made to feel that they’re bad. But somehow, there’s this process that we go through, where we always seem to be looking for the way that other people are caught. There’s this lingo for it, like “off” or “odd.” What it does is interrupts that fundamental sense of music, as in, you do not write the songs. You discover the song. It is like people can’t discover their song because there are all of these barriers that are put up.

And so, if you see, it is not about the inherent goodness of people, but that’s a big part of it. It is celebrating the uniqueness of people. The idea that differences can be special, that opens up a whole new approach to life. So, for example, in my life, if I had listened to a lot of the people who were looking at me, “God, why are you like that?” There are all these people growing up who are called the “Wallers” in my high school. There are all these people who they dressed all in black, their earrings and their tattoos. They listen to the music that, at that point, I thought was weird. I stayed away from them for the most part. In doing so, I probably made them feel bad about who they were; I got that done to me later on.

And if I had listened to those people, I wouldn’t have discovered this world, where, now, it drives my wife crazy. If I see somebody who’s dressed all in black, or if I see somebody who’s wearing a metal shirt or a hardcore shirt, my wife says, “Do you want to go talk to them?” I’m like, “Yes, I do.” I would have lost this thing that was so important to me. I would have lost this culture that’s important to me. I would have lost this world that gets me excited. I would have felt much like a drone. I would have felt like the dead in The Walking Dead. I wouldn’t have even noticed. Because looking back, I think about all the weekends that I didn’t have as much to do. Because when I started playing music, I, all of a sudden, always had something to do.

Because you always could be working on starting. You could always be going and seeing shows. You could always be passing out flyers. You’d always be in a query. You could always be working. You could always hang out with your friends, too. But this was something that was abstract. So, I think that if you allow that for people; they can figure out what’s organically the best thing for them to actualize. Because you do not know what actualization looks like for an individual. You may think, “I think you should be a doctor,” “I think should be a lawyer,” “I think you should marry this person,” “I think you should play this music,” “I think you should follow this religion,” but you do not know necessarily that’s the right path for that person. So, I think that the idea for us is to create that space. We’re not coming in with “this is who you are.” We’re coming in and asking, “Who are you?” If you do not know yet, then we can figure out how to peel away some of the layers that have gotten in the way, so that you can figure that out.

Jacobsen: Who’ve been some important precursors to some of this philosophy?

Friedman: I think Carl Rogers was probably for me in terms of a psychological standpoint. Victor Frankl with a lot of it. We call it Hardcore Humanism, but I think it has a strong central element to it. Sometimes, I struggle with the distinction between meaning and purpose. For me, meaning is often, “Let me look around at what I’m doing and give it a name, or give it a reason.” A purpose is something that drives behaviour more. I do not know if that’s a relevant distinction. But those are probably two; Maslow’s hierarchy for sure. I think that there’s a lot of people who influenced me later, like Martin Seligman was my advisor as an undergraduate, who founded Positive Psychology.

It is different how we do things. I think the orientation towards striving rather than surviving. Kelly Brownell, who was my advisor in graduate school, a lot of the things that behavioural medicine and integrating different theories came from him. Also, Howard Leventhal, I think he was a colleague of mine when I was doing academics, who made me think a lot about the concept of purpose in people’s lives. Quite frankly, if I were saying it, I think my parents were influential in the sense that they, in retrospect, had some things. The hard-working part, I think in retrospect that came from them because I saw them.

Day-in and day-out, they were focused on what they wanted. They were focused. They came from Brooklyn and didn’t necessarily have a lot of money in their pocket. We moved to a suburb right outside of New York City. They were about work hard, “Let’s make money, let’s save money.” We had a lot, but that was part of the point, and “let’s get money so that the kids can go to college.” Those are things that, I think, in retrospect would have resonated with me because I saw how diligent they had to be over the years to make that dream come true. They were very, very, direct about they didn’t have to have that. They could have been like, “Listen, we got out of the suburbs. We got out of the city. You’re in the suburbs now. You’re on your own.”

Their dream might have been, “We want to relax now,” which is totally fine if that’s who you are. So, I think that those have been some of the different influences over the years. Actually, probably, one thing I should say. So, this is the story. My wife without realizing it. I think this was set in motion. Because when I was transitioning out of academic work, we had started dating. I was telling her. I’m trying to figure out, “What am I going to do professionally?” I eventually wanted to practice. But she had come to our first shows. I started dating her a week before our first show. So, she came to one of our second or third shows, I think.

She sat down and was like, “Okay, so, let’s read it all out. What are your options?” She was like, “You can go into another academic psychology job. You can go to a medical and academic medical center,” which is where I was originally doing research. “You could go into a private practice, or you can become a professional musician.” I was like, “I’m sorry. What was the last one? Why don’t I become a professional musician?” I’m like, “Why are you saying that?” She said, “No, I saw you perform. I think that if you put in the time and the effort, then you could do that.”

I was like, “Oh, man. She must love me to think that.” What she saw was worthy of that praise. So, what I find, here’s a person in whose mind, it was like, “Oh, I’m supporting you.  I could imagine that.” Now, I do not think that was justified on her part. Probably, now, she’d look back and say, “I think I was wrong.” But the point for me, in my marriage, she’s left me to pursue a lot of different things. Quite frankly, I’m not sure that a lot of other spouses would put up with it. She let me pursue doing Brazilian jujitsu.

She let me pursue being in a band. She let me like pursue this thing called Hardcore Humanism. She’s open-minded to Hardcore Humanism. We’re doing together. We co-founded, which is part of the reason why. We co-founded it together because she got a lot of the content and also the business stuff, which is more of the practical merging. But I think that she had that philosophy in a way that was different for me. It was different for me from other people I have known in my life. So, yes, those are all my influences.

Jacobsen: And that’s interesting, too. Because one of the main tropes in North American culture is the band dream of a guy, which is the opposite of the way that she saw it for you. So, the dream of pursuing a band in our popular culture is seen as a highly negative and immature thing. Whereas in your own marriage, it was seen as something to grow and explore and, therefore, was supported in a proactive and constructive manner rather than the opposite.

Friedman: Yes. I think that what was interesting was that the hardcore punk community. One of the things that’s interesting now. We have rock stars who are 70 or 80, but those are people who have been rock stars forever. But what you had in that community, in the hardcore punk community and to a certain extent, the metal community, especially in New York City, there are so many people here who come to be creative, and so few people can make a living on it. So, it is not a hobby. It is not a job, but it is a passion. You take it seriously. You do serious things with it. Even though, it is not like a big moneymaker, which had come from Hardcore Punk. That was a world that I didn’t know about, that DIY – put on your own shows. So, I was getting that experience and philosophy and reading about that in books like American Hardcore – all of that stuff. Then, yes, you’re right. When I was talking to her about it, she could see. It wasn’t about, “You have to do this for three months. If you’re not making a million dollars and a young star…” It was, as you said, “This can be part of a subtle way.” We read in a fairly conventional way. We’re married. We have kids. We have a house. I have a practice,

But there’s this other piece, or pieces in a way. I still have a new band, which I’m working with now. As I said, I am training in different martial arts. I do this thing. It is like the fact that she has been known to accept that, and in many cases, directly support it. Yes, it would have been a horror. I wouldn’t even have known it, but it would have been a horrible life for me if I didn’t have a wife who did that. I do not know. Again, I wouldn’t even have known what was wrong because I wouldn’t have been able to explore that stuff.

Jacobsen: If I look at some of the history reflecting on it, of Humanism, a lot of it is quasi-liturgical, almost like someone’s in academia or reading a homily. It is dry and academic, in white collars, often. This Humanism, along with a few others that I could think of off the top, they’re more grounded. They’re more blue-collar. They require more, your body is involved in embodying that Humanism. A lot of the Humanism – that I have seen through – is bookish. It is of the head. So, it is a different flavour of Humanism that I think should get a lot more attention.

Friedman: I appreciate that. Yes, I do not think I ever explored other than reading that. That might be the parallel of what you’re saying, and why it didn’t resonate with me fully. Yes, I always felt as if I was reading it. As you said, it is academic. Also, it comes from me, personally. I do not particularly find happiness. I feel like there’s a lot of things in society that are about reducing anxiety and being happy. Those seem like the priorities. For me, I do not know. It never resonated with me. I remember seeing Billy Corgan from the Smashing Pumpkins, who were saying in an interview: It didn’t seem like you guys were having fun as a band.

He was always like, “The fun for us was making that album. The fun was playing a good show.” He was like, “A lot of other bands had a lot more fun than we did.” But, of course, they all sucked. I think that that was because I remember seeing sex, drugs, and rock & roll bands. I do not have anything against that. But that’s who you are, and that’s authentically who you are. But I remember, I do not know if you have ever seen Bruce Springsteen in concert. I have never been a huge Bruce Springsteen fan, but I saw him on the “Rising” tour about 20 years ago. He was probably like in his 40s, 50s. But he got on stage. He’s got millions of dollars. He has top records. He’s already in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame.

And this guy was playing shows like he was 17. If he didn’t get it right, he was never going to get out of Jersey. So, when people would ask me in the future, “What music do you like?” I was like, “I like jazz music.” I like the music where the person understands the power of that moment. It is how important it is. For me, how important my rock stars have been for me, it wasn’t even one of them at that point, quite frankly. The shows were important for me, the pulsating energy. If you do not get down, and if you do not appreciate that, I do not know what you’re doing.

And it was interesting because I interviewed someone from The Lumineers, which I do not know how they are in Canada, but they’re a big band here. They’re on the radio. I do not know if he heard directly or there was a story where Bruce Springsteen would say to his band, “For every show, you didn’t earn this.” I was like, “Yes, this is not about reducing anxiety. It is not about happiness. It is about the power of purpose.” That’s about touching in. So, for me, getting back to your question, it is that heat.

It is like when you have therapies. It is clinically interesting. You want to go with the passion, and where the heat is. I feel like, “What’s the point of all this if that’s not where you’re at?” Look, another person’s passion may be being completely chill. But if that’s you, and if that’s your passion, that’s the thing that you crave, fantastic. If your vision is being on a beach, and sitting and, basically, doing nothing and watching the waves, then that is you. You feel like that’s fantastic. I love that. It is not for me. But I want it for what you’re saying about that heat, that intensity. I do not know for me is what makes it particularly human. To me, it’s what we’re here for. That’s the same thing, “What’s ultimately good in people? What’s special about people? What makes us human?” We have that capacity. So, to me, if it is not focusing on that, “What’s the point?”

Jacobsen: One band that stands out, in that regard, without any formal identification with that humanistic philosophy would be the Red Hot Chili Peppers. Their way of approaching, the way they play the music, what they sing about, and the way they seem much more in the heat, they seem much their authentic selves rather than some false self.

Friedman: Yes. It is always one of the things. When there’s someone who’s in a band that I find has that a lot of times, not all the times, but someone in the band or multiple people came out of that hardcore punk scene. We definitely did come out of that. He has that intensity when he plays. You can’t imagine him playing a show without sweating profusely. There’s no way. Usually, the Red Hot Chili Peppers with that funk, rock, and punk.

But I appreciate their more mellow side, because I think you’ve got another thing, as an example. I always found it odd, which is not particularly humanistic. When we have this abusive relationship with the rock stars, we want them to go out on limbs for us, so we want them to take all the risk. We want them to put in all the effort or whatever, when we find something that they do right, which is: We grab onto it. We freeze-dry it. We repeat it. What I do, I listen to the same songs over and over again. I love it.

And then if they go off, and if they do something that’s different, “What the hell? They do not care about their audience.” We didn’t understand. The way that we got that special thing was not because they dressed, basically, as if we’re walking in line. They were creative. They were going to love it. Sometimes, they find something, that formula, which they love. And it works. There are bands like Rage Against the Machine and Foo Fighters. So, I think it covers it a little bit with some of the stuff. But it is always striking to me how that chance will like “turn”. Where the media will turn on a band, that’s the reasons why I like doing interviews.

Because I want people to see the process. Why on earth would you want your musicians to walk in a straight line? Go to the factory and do the same thing every day, so, it has always been striking to me. If someone’s experimental, or if their heart changes, the Chili Peppers 30 years ago, may be different than the Chili Peppers now, what’s authentic to them now may be different. If people do not let them do that, or if they do not appreciate that, I feel like you lose all the richness of the artist. You lose all the lessons that you can learn about the artist. It can apply to your own life.

Jacobsen: Where can people learn more about Hardcore Humanism?

Friedman: I got a http://www.HardcoreHumanism.com. We’ve got all the stuff up there. The podcast and videos are not; we’re recording them right now, so they’re going to be live in about six weeks. But the articles that we’ve done in the past are different topics that we talked about. There’s a philosophy that people want to get in touch and they want to do coaching or therapy or whatever it is, depending on the situation. They can get in touch with us there, but it is pretty much all there.

Jacobsen: Any final feelings or thoughts and conclusion based on the conversation today?

Friedman: No. Honestly, I appreciate you reaching out. It is always great. I always enjoy talking about the stuff. I love it when people share whatever it is that they’re doing with me. So, I would say that everybody is thinking about those three principles. If you’re sitting there, and if there are people calling you weird or calling you off, obviously, people are pointing out that there might be something that’s a little bit different if it is harmful. But a lot of times it is something that other people do not like. It is the type of music or the way you dress or the way that you approach religion or the way that you approach your work or what field you want to go into and think to yourself, “Watch out for that.” Listen, it is, “Is this helping me grow?”, or, “Is this harmful for me?” “Someone is helping me figure out who I am,” or, “Is this something imposing on me what I should be onto you.?”

And so, similarly, think, “Who am I, and what am I trying to do in this world?” Know that as you figure that out, you’re going to have to work hard for it – do not be concerned. If you come upon your purpose, you can’t find your dreams. It is not easy because everyone is in a league of their own. If it was easy, everybody would do it, but keep at it. Because, if who you are, and if what you’re trying to do, and if you’re working hard for it, you’re either winning or you’re learning. You’re getting closer, or you’re learning the ways that are not getting closer. Over time, it is difficult for that not to work.

Jacobsen: Sir, thanks so much.

Friedman: Ok, great. Thanks again.

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Ask Professor Burge 19: White Evangelical Christian Voting Bloc

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/04

Professor Ryan Burge‘s website states: “I am an Assistant Professor of Political Science as well as the Graduate Coordinator at Eastern Illinois University. I teach in a variety of areas, including American institutions, political behavior, and research methods. My research focuses largely on the intersection between religiosity and political behavior (especially in the American context). Previously, I have completed an appointment as a post doctoral research fellow at the Paul Simon Public Policy Institute in Carbondale, Illinois. While there I was an adviser on issues of survey methodology and polling, as well as providing data collection and analysis.

I have published over a dozen articles in a number of well regarded peer reviewed journals including Politics & Religion, the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, the Review of Religious Research, the Journal of Religious Leadership, RepresentationPoliticsGroupsand Identities, the Journal of Communication and Religion, the Journal of Religion, Media and Digital Culture and the Social Science Computer Review. 

In addition, my research has been covered in a variety of media outlets including The New York Times, The Washington Post, CNN, NBC, Vox, 538, BuzzFeed News, Al-Jazeera, Christianity Today, Religion News Service, The Daily Mail, Deseret News, World Magazine, Relevant, and C-SPAN. I am the co-founder and frequent contributor to Religion in Public, a forum for scholars of religion and politics to make their work accessible to a more general audience.

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about white Evangelical Republicans as a voting bloc.

*Interview conducted October 12, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, some of the more recent research over the last two weeks. You notice that the largest religious voting bloc in the United States are the Evangelical white Republicans or white Evangelical Republicans. Why are they the largest voting bloc? Is it because they are larger demographically or is it because they simply vote more? They take the democratic process for themselves. More importantly, what’s the reason?

Professor Ryan Burge: There is a combination of things. The white Evangelicals are pretty large anyway. They are about 17% of the population. So, they’re already pretty large. But what makes them a large voting bloc is that 75% of them are Republicans. So, you take 17%, you get 75% to 17%. You get 13% of all Americans are white Evangelical Republicans, 13%. Which is the largest religious voting bloc, the next closest is nothing in particular Democrats, which are 9% of the population. But I don’t think you can count on nothing in particular, because they have low levels of education. They are low on the participation scale in terms of going to a board meeting, putting yard signs up, and doing all those things. They can’t bank on this doing a lot. You can bank on Evangelicals. So, there’s actually been data, recently; that says that even though they were becoming a smaller and smaller portion of the population, that they are still turning out at relatively high rates. And will continue to do that until they die off, which is probably in your next 20 years or so, they’re going to be in decline.

So, I talk about this all the time because I get so many people like me. All this talks about white Evangelical Republicans, because they’re the largest voting group in America., there’s no other group that’s the same size. For instance, 6% of Americans are white Catholic Republicans. That’s half the size of white Evangelical Republicans. So, we should talk about white Evangelicals twice as much. And even atheists, even Democratic atheists, are only four and a half percent of the population. So, really, that’s much smaller than your white Evangelical Republicans. So, there’s a reason why I talk about white Evangelicals all the time because they’re large and are super important to American politics. So, that’s the key to understand the Republican Party, too by the way, if that’s their base. Like that’s the biggest chunk of their voters are white Christians, especially white Evangelicals. And they got to play to that base, continue to play to that base as well as they can.

Jacobsen: Now, the only religious group with diversity in friends is Biden supporting white Evangelicals. Why?

Burge: Yes, so, that comes from a poll I didn’t have access to, but Pew Research Center asks an interesting question, which is, “What do you think your friends are? Are they a majority Republican, majority Democrat, mix, or whatever?” It was 81% of Nones have friends who are also for Biden. So, 81% of Nones have friends who are for Biden too. So, basically, you have no political diversity there. 87% of Nones who are going to vote for Trump, also say that their friends are going to vote for Trump too. So, even there, you don’t have diversity. Look at Evangelicals with a lot of diversity, the only religious group that has any diversity are white Evangelicals for Biden. And the reason that is, is because there’s not a lot of white Evangelicals for Biden. So, if you’re going to have friends who are white Evangelicals and you’re for Biden, you’re going to have to have friends who are more Trump and for Biden. If you have white Evangelicals for Trump, you can literally have 50 friends tomorrow that are all believing the same way you do religiously and politically.

So really, the only group that’s out of step with their partisanship are white Evangelicals who vote for Biden because it is so hard to find a white Evangelical that’s for Biden in America. You’re going to find more diversity of opinion in there, which shows you how religion sorts itself out, e.g., your Nones or your Democrats or your Christians or your Republicans. And those people hang out with people who are like them politically and religiously. And you don’t get a lot of diversity anymore in the pews or in friendships or even on social media. I think that’s part of why the polarization in America is so bad, is because people don’t hear the other side, the people they trust much. They only hear the same side echoed over and over and over again. So, I think that’s a bad sign for the future of American politics and religion. Is there an echo chamber for everybody now?

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Jon 29: “If I prayed…”

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/04

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New YorkHere we talk about the Biden-Harris presidency.  

*Interview conducted November 16, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, you had an election in the United States. So, basically, statistically, it is ultimately going to be a Biden presidency and Kamala Harris vice presidency. So, you talked to your mother. As the first question, what happened in the New York streets? What was her comparison for that uproar? How has that played over or played out over the last week?

Jonathan Engel: I’ll tell you, when the election was more or less called for Biden by my news services, etc. They call results that they get from each individual state that runs its own election. For days, there was nothing worth watching in the news, simply hoping we’d get a call and finally go forward from Saturday morning. And I was busy doing other things. And we started to hear it out on the street. From my apartment, on the 18th floor, I started to hear people cheering and honking and people ringing bells and things like that. And I’m like, “What’s that all about?” And then we said, “Maybe, they called it for Biden.” So, we turned on the TV and sure enough. I found out it had been a call for Biden.

And in cities all over the country, I know that from keeping the TV on, but also in New York City, which I knew from both had seen on TV and just walking around outside. There were these huge spontaneous, not demonstrations, but they were celebrations. People just so happy. I think it was a combination of things. People taking a lot of news stories in the United States over the past number of years about how much people call Trump supporters love, and they go to rallies and so on. But you haven’t seen quite as much as we saw happened in the news about the people that don’t like Trump, hate him. And that’s especially in New York City, we hate Trump. I think it is because we know him better than anybody else. He is from here. And we never liked this guy.

And so there was that fear about, “Oh my God, he might win again.” And it was such a big relief when it was actually called, “Okay, no, Biden’s going to win.” So, you had that. I think it was people also partially had just a beautiful day and people hadn’t been outside in so long. And, yes, when you saw the pictures, I saw myself. I went to Union Square in New York. That’s like a place where there’s a lot of history of protest. So, it is going to be something going on probably in the Square. But also, I saw pictures. I knew it was happening in Washington Square and in Times Square, too.

But, we hadn’t been outside and people did wear masks. Something, I have not stepped foot outside my apartment door since March without a mask on, even when I’m walking down the hallway. I’m just staying in the hallway in my building to go to the room where we could throw out the garbage. Even that I have not, I always put a mask on. As I said, I haven’t stepped outside the front door of my apartment since March without a mask on. And there were people. People who were celebrating, where only 90%, at least, had their masks on. So, that was a good thing. But everybody had been so caught up, being nervous about this election and terrified that if Trump won another term, it would be the end of our democracy. And I don’t think that’s hyperbole. I think that people felt this way. I felt this way. I thought it was potentially true. So, it was just this outpouring of emotion.

Now, my mother, you mentioned, my mother’s 96-years-old. She was born in 1924. She lives in a retirement home on Long Island, but she said as far as she could tell – and I asked her about it and she said – there has been nothing like this in the United States since the end of World War Two, especially the D Day. It was a little different, I think, because people were coming out because of the use of atomic weapons, which I think creeps people out. Even if they were glad the war is over, when the war ended in Europe a few months earlier in Europe with D-Day, people just ran out to the streets to celebrate. This iconic picture of this sailor kissing a woman in Times Square. Just because everybody was just celebrating the end of the war, also, there has not been anything like that spontaneous celebration, not just in New York, but all over the country since the D Day, since the war in Europe ended in 1945.

Jacobsen: Now, I heard some of the clips. You aren’t kidding. There is uproar and honking of horns throughout the day in New York on that day. Yes, that’s amazing. It was quite startling. How has the opposite side of the political aisle, the Republican aisle, in the United States reacted to the current well-substantiated projections of a Biden presidency and Kamala Harris vice presidency? The overwhelming projection or extrapolation from the current vote count.

Engel: How Trump has reacted not surprisingly, this is not a guy who would ever say he lost fairly. In fact, if you go back in history, not only has he never admitted that he lost anything fair and square, but he also tends to sow that idea before the thing actually happens. Remember, before the 2016 election, when most people thought he would lose, including probably him, he was complaining about the election being rigged against him, so that if he lost, he would have his, “Oh, I told you it was rigged against me. “And this year’s election was no different. And of course, Trump has refused to concede and refused to acknowledge defeat. And he’s got a bunch of lawyers who are making some money. Although, some of them have decided to get it. And we’re not doing this anymore. Drop them on the plane and drop his re-election campaign as claimed, but going into court and losing and losing and losing and losing, trying, you can’t just go into court and say, “There was a fraud.” You can see that on the news. You can see that on Twitter. But when you go to court, they want to have evidence. I have been on the wrong end of that judge’s time, where I really didn’t have much going on. The judges don’t like that. They don’t like you to come in and just make conclusory claims. To just say in a conclusory way, “It is this, your honour. And they did this so well.” Where’s the proof? Where’s the evidence? And so, that’s when the case from Trump, Trump supporters, have been largely following Trump’s lead, and grassroots supporters following Trump’s lead, and saying, “Oh, it must have been rigged, it must have been, etc.” Meanwhile, Trump’s own head – this is the head of cybersecurity at the Department of Homeland Security, said, “This is a most secure election the United States has ever had.”

But the interesting thing comes from Republican officeholders, the Republicans in the Senate and the House, not so much on a state level, but on a federal level – the members of Congress. They have largely said nothing. Out of four senators, Republican senators, out of whatever it is, the total number is right now 50 or something like that. And there are two reasons that are going to be runoffs. But of the 50 and several hundred in the House of Representatives, only four members of the Senate, have said, “Congratulations to Biden, and said, “Okay, Biden is going to be the next president.”

And this week, I was watching Meet the Press and Chuck Todd. The Sunday talk shows where usually members of Congress always want to get on there. It is great publicity. But he invited all 50 Republican members of the Senate to come on today to talk about the election and not one of them agreed to. And in fact, there was little Republican presence on the shows, on these shows, because they knew that if they went on the show, they had, basically, a choice of two things. They could either back up Trump and say, “Oh, it was rigged, was fraudulent,” etc., in which case they look ridiculous. And nobody likes that. Or they could say, “Trump lost,” in which case they’ll have the fury of Trump and his supporters again.

So basically, John Kennedy, President John Kennedy, once – not to be confused with the Republican senator from Louisiana, John Kennedy, but President John Kennedy – wrote a book called Profiles in Courage about times when people were put against their own interests, put themselves on the line to do what was right. And what we’re seeing here are profiles in cowardice of these people, it is funny because I see it routinely on television where we have a reporter. NBC or MSNBC will have a reporter outside Congress. They’re in a place where Republicans are going to lunch or something, and then ask them to comment, “Do you think Biden won?”, etc. They just all walk by without saying a word because they’re afraid to either tell the truth, which is Trump lost; in which case, they’ll be hurt politically. Or, they don’t want to look ridiculous by telling lies, by saying, “Yes, Trump won.” They don’t want to make them look ridiculous. So, they, basically, say nothing.

And that’s what we’re getting out of Republican elected officials. I saw Mitch McConnell the other day saying, “I don’t know. But I certainly know the president has the right to challenge this election in court,” which is not exactly true. As a lawyer, I can tell you that is not exactly true. Because anytime you go into court to start a lawsuit for the plaintiffs, the plaintiff’s lawyer has to certify that they have a belief that they have a legitimate claim. Yet, they’re getting all the cases thrown out of court. You can go into court. You can file a lawsuit and the judge looks at you, and says, “What’s your basis for your belief that this is a legitimate claim?” And right now, the lawyers who are going in there are basically saying the judge is giving him the old Ralph Kramden – because they don’t have any evidence. And at some point, judges will, I believe, start to sanction this, fine lawyers and will fine Trump’s election committee, which is bringing these cases. Because unlike what Mitch McConnell says, you can’t just walk into court and say, “This is a fraud, your honour. I want to stop this vote.” The judge will say, “Where’s the proof?” And if you don’t have any, you get thrown out of court. And again, you can get fined by the judge for bringing this claim.

So, that’s what we’re seeing right now. The followers are basically either bewildered, “I can’t believe he lost,” or believing that nonsense they were told that if he lost that must mean that there was some chicanery. But the Republicans, federal elected United States representatives in the Senate and in the House of Representatives, they’re basically just hiding in a hole because they’re, again, a profile in cowardice.

Jacobsen: So, what will happen on January 20th? What will happen in the United States based on the premise of a transition of powers, peacefully?

Engel: I think basically what’s going to happen – I think most people think of this – is that Joe Biden will be inaugurated as the 46th President of the United States. I guess that’s what’s going to essentially happen. But the damage is still being done in terms of sowing discord, sowing disbelief in our electoral system. And also, a big problem that’s happening is that the transition is not happening in terms of Biden getting funds to help him get his transition up and running. Those funds are not flowing because the Trump administration refuses to provide them. And also, he’s supposed to be getting security briefings. He’s supposed to be getting what they call the President’s Daily Brief (PDB). He’s supposed to be getting that by now. But Trump is refusing to cooperate. We see video of the day after the 2016 election, Hillary Clinton conceded; she gave a speech in which she conceded and said, “Let’s all help President Trump to do the best he can, which is the type of thing that happens, supposed to happen, on a regular basis.”

When President Obama invited Trump into the White House, they started giving him security briefings, which, by the way, he didn’t read. He didn’t want to transition in 2016. If he had learned anything or knew anything, he just wanted to go out to more rallies to stroke his ego. But they were there, and they were awesome. Now, Biden is getting those reasons; and there are people, serious conservative Republicans in the intelligence establishment, like John Bolton who was for a while national security adviser under Trump, but who also is a long time, hawkish rightwing guy and Republican guy. And he’s out there saying Biden has to get these briefings. They can’t come in not knowing what’s going on. But this is exactly what is right now happening. But on January 20th, I can tell you; I think most people think that what’s going to happen on January 20th is that Joe Biden is going to be inaugurated as president. There’s a deadline that all states have to give their certified results to the American Electoral College. And then sometime in mid-December, the Electoral College certifies that the winner is Joe Biden. So, that’s the next step that’ll happen, which I do believe also will happen. And then on January 20th, simply, Biden will be inaugurated.

Now, I saw Michael Cohen. The famous Trump lawyer/fixer who has turned on Trump and served time in prison for committing crimes on behalf of Trump. He said what he thinks is going to happen. What he thinks is going to happen is that sometime around Christmas or New Year, Trump will go to a resort in Florida and just simply not come back. I hope that will be the case. And I see why he thinks so. But regardless, I do believe that on January 20th, Joe Biden will be inaugurated as the next president. He will be operating, stepping in, on a handicap, because unlike every other transition before this, in which the new incoming president was given briefings and knowledge and said about what’s happening, “Looks like he’s not going to be getting there.” But he will be inaugurated on January 20th. If I prayed, I would say, “I’ll pray.”

Jacobsen: Jon, thank you for your analysis as always.

Engel: Pleasure, Scott, as always, to think about that. Take care.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Jon 28: American Democracy and Historical Cycles, and Breakthroughs

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/03

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New YorkHere we talk about Election Day and American democracy.

*Interview conducted November 2, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: This will be published after the election, so consider this something like an in-the-moment interview with a retrospective publication date. So, we are on the cusp of closing elections in the United States. It is an exciting time for some and a terrifying time for others. It is a time of potential celebration, depends on your political orientation and social views. In New York, in the secular community, how are the conversations happening around President Trump, around presidential candidate Joe Biden, and around the election at this time?

Jonathan Engel: In terms of the secular community, say yesterday, I had a meet-up with a bunch of secularists here in New York. And in fact, the week before, I had a Zoom meeting with a bunch of people from the secular network of New Jersey. And clearly, people who are secular tend to favour Joe Biden, even Joe Biden is religious himself. And Democrats pay lip service to a lot of religious malarkey, as I would say. By the same token, they are not the extreme religious fanatics, generally speaking, that you find on the right that you find among Republicans. And Trump, of course, has no religion whatsoever. But he said, there is religious right in this country who have supported him. So, he’ll give them anything he wants, including Justice Amy Coney Barrett on the Supreme Court, who is a real religious fanatic. You look at Trump, the Trump administration, serious religious fanatics, the attorney general, the vice president, the secretary of state. You’re not going to get anything like that under a Democratic presidency.

So I’m sure, almost all secularists that I know are supporting Biden. But as for our apprehensions, we have the same apprehensions that every other person who’s not on the Trump team has, as well as the Trump Kool-Aid has, in this country. If I could know that this was going to be your relatively free and fair election tomorrow and that every vote would be counted as in a normal election, I’d be feeling pretty confident right now that Biden would win. And I feel that way. But I just don’t know what you can call it – mischief, except mischief is what my five-year-old kids get into. I don’t know what criminality would be more like it that could happen with Trump. Again, there’s one thing about Trump. There is absolutely nothing you can say about him in which a rational reply would be, “Oh, no, he wouldn’t do that.” So, people here are apprehensive, even those who feel that Biden is going to win and then feel fairly confident about that, there’s still a lot of apprehension because of what Trump might do in order to win the election. Also, a lot of people are still traumatized from four years ago going into the elections thinking, “Wow, I’m going to watch it here, the first female president of the United States,” and wound up, shell shocked. So, that feeling doesn’t go away in four years. In fact, you get flashbacks of it because then you’re reminded of it. So, there is a lot of fear and apprehension in many ways here in the secular community.

We know that separation of church and state is in many ways on the line. Again, it is so ironic because it is unlike Trump himself, religious – he doesn’t care. I can’t imagine him worshipping God; he would think that God should be worshipping him. So, he doesn’t care. But he has thrown the keys to the kingdom, so to speak, to the religious fanatics in this country. And what they will do with it, if he gets four more years, then it is very frightening.

Jacobsen: Even though Joe Biden is a Catholic, what is the form of his Catholicism making secular people more comfortable with him than another candidate who would not have been Trump while still religious in a way less appealing to them? Because I’m aware that differences exist between, on the one hand, hierarchs and laity in the Roman Catholic Church, as well as between the laity in the Catholic Church; something like ordinary believers on the one hand, versus more hardcore adherence to the faith, on the other, which comes with different social and political consequences because the faith is so marginalized even in such a long and large history in the United States as a whole.

Engel: As a secularist myself, I feel fairly comfortable with Biden. My understanding is that he’s a pretty religious guy. Does he go to church every Sunday? I don’t know. Which is in a way reassuring, he’s not throwing that in anybody’s face or anything else like that. I go back to thinking about this country when Jon Kennedy was running for president in 1960. He became the first then, as far as I could think of, still the only, Catholic; the only non-Protestant to be president of the United States. When he was running, one of the things that was being used much against him at the time was, “Oh, he’s a Catholic. He’ll be a tool of the Pope.” There weren’t so many secularists worried about him being a tool of the pope, and turning this into a theocracy or something. It was more like Protestants who were anti-Catholic and anti-papacy at the time. And they were worried about it. It is interesting, just as a quick aside, because in modern America right now, extreme right-wing Catholics and extreme right ing Protestants make common cause for the most part. But that wasn’t so much the case back then. But in any event, Kennedy gave a famous speech in which he said, ‘I’m Catholic, but I’m not taking orders from the pope. I take orders from the American people.’ And he very much strongly affirmed the separation of church and state in that speech.

So as for Joe Biden, my understanding is he’s somewhat religious. But I also know that, for example, he favours legalized abortion rights. So, that is a big litmus test for a religious person, especially a Catholic; he is in favour of legalized abortion rights. And I don’t think he’s in favour of forcing religion on anybody. I think he understands the separation of church and state. It is interesting. I would have looked at any one of those debates if someone had asked the question about the separation of church and state, but they didn’t. And generally speaking, I’m more comfortable even with some of the more religious members of the Democratic Party. I think they understand that this is a wide-ranging party. Not only, but there are also a lot more non-Christians, either Catholics or Protestants, in the Democratic Party than in the Republican Party. The Democratic Party has Muslim members of Congress and many more Jewish members of the House and the Senate. There are a few Republicans in the House or the Senate who are not Protestant or Catholic. But as for Democrats, there are lots of them. So, it is a more diverse base of support. And I think Biden understands that.

There is a, for example, just giving people; there is a Freethought Caucus in the United States Congress, which has 13 members. All of them are Democrats. And only one of them, the guy who started it, Jared Huffman from California, is an outright non-theist. The rest of them, either they don’t talk about it or whatever, and I was pleased. A woman who I don’t always agree with, a Muslim woman who in Congress from Michigan, her name is Rashida Farid, she joined the Freethought Caucus, which I thought was fantastic. And she said, ‘Listen, I’m a Muslim. I’m still a practicing Muslim. But I believe in the separation of church and state. I believe in using science and research and evidence in order to for us to devise solutions to our challenges.’

So as long as a person believes that: separating church and state, belief in science, if they’re religious themselves, I can live with that. I’m going to have to live with that topic. I don’t have much choice. So, I don’t even know what religion Kamala Harris is. I know that her mother was Hindu and her father, I believe, was Protestant. He was from Jamaica. And I know she’s married to a Jewish man, so I don’t even know if she practices or what she practices. I don’t know. And to me, that’s a wonderful thing. I don’t want to know, that’s a your-own-time thing. When you’re in the government representing me, your religion, I don’t want to hear about.

Even though, yes, Joe Biden is a practicing Catholic, etc., but me, as a secular person, I am comfortable with him. I am comfortable with the Democratic Party. Yes, they could do better, but I’m fairly comfortable with them. But then you look at the other side, you realize there’s no choice at all. And again, the irony there is they are led by a totally non-religious person. But it doesn’t matter because, Trump, anybody who likes Trump, Trump will do anything for them. All they have to do is say nice things about him and that’s it, even during the Election in 2016. He was asked, ‘Why are you saying such amazing things about Putin? The guy’s a KGB thug, who’s a dictator. Why are you saying such nice things about him?’ And Trump’s reply, basically, ‘He says good things about me.’ So, that’s it. If Trump has the support of the extreme religious people in this country, which includes Jews too, he extreme religious Jews in New York City, then they tend to support Trump. So, Biden is a religious person. But I am comfortable with him being president, that he will observe and defend the separation of church and state.

Jacobsen: After the election, we have another issue. The issue being, or the deal is, a significant chunk of the American population 10 fingers, 10 toes supported policies, behaviours, and speeches of current President Donald Trump. Those often were against many of the standards, attitudes, and standards of evidence of the secular community – human rights activists, of humanists across the country. Yet this has been whipped up over four years. The kettle will not turn to ice right away. It is still at a boil. So, the question, after election, what now?

Engel: Boy, nervous about that. I was watching – I wish I could remember her name – a reporter. I think she’s with Showtime. Jon Heileman is the guy who produces it; he’s one of the reporters there. But in any event, she was talking to some guy who was in a militia in Georgia, a rightwing militia. And basically, what he said, he was expecting and prepared for violence no matter who wins, because he said: If Trump wins over the left – who are so violent, which they’re not, but they’ll probably start something. And if Biden wins, then it is illegitimate. Biden can’t win and this is what Trump has been telling these people and some of them believe him and that he cannot lose by any legitimate means. If he loses, it means it was stolen. And this guy, standing there with this assault rifle, because this is the glorious United States of America where everybody has an assault rifle, not me, by the way, but in New York City in that year. In lots of other places, they’re saying, “We’re ready to march.”

Now that we’ve got a lot of tough talk from guys like that, it was one of these guys at the end who said, ‘I was a free man yesterday. I’ll be a free man tomorrow.’ But when they actually come up against armed cops who are trained and who are serious, it does tend to peter out, but there is reason to be concerned about the immediate aftermath of there being violence. And then there’s the long-term answer of this, that we still haven’t confronted. Some people say, “Oh, the problem is Trump. And when he’s gone, we can go back to normal.” But I think a lot of people, including me, are apprehensive about that, because the problem isn’t just Trump. I’ll tell you one thing. I have been shocked. And again, there are so many things that have shocked, but not surprised, me about the last four years. And one of those things is that, right now, I am shocked that there has been not a single Republican leader who has stood up and said, “OK, look, folks, we’re going to have a free and fair election because that’s what we do here. And then the winner will be the winner. And that’ll be that.” They’re not saying this.

And so, the long-term prospects for this country are uncertain, even if Biden wins, because there are 40%  of the people who have been drinking the Kool-Aid for the last four years. People who believe either he’s done a great job or that this is a hoax, not real. I honestly don’t know. But the fact that those people will still be here, even if the state of New York manages to put Trump into an orange jumpsuit, those people will still be here in this country. And that’s a long-term problem that I don’t know the solution to. And in some ways, I’m not even thinking about that much because I’m like, “Let’s get through the next couple of days, let’s get through it.” Because, Trump could just even some way legitimately win re-election, in which case, give me a bit of liberty under the doormat because I’m going to be sleeping in your bathroom pretty soon (in Canada).

Jacobsen: How are you feeling personally about it?

Engel: Nervous, I pay something for last time, because every day is felt like it has taken a year, to get to this point. It has been such a slow drag. I am nervous about it. On the one hand, it is easy to fall into, “Oh, that can’t happen here.” I’ll tell you a little story. I’m a big jazz fan. I have been going to concerts. I have had a subscription to the Jazz at Lincoln Center Orchestra for over 20 years. And right after the 2016 election, I was at one of the concerts. I was sitting next to a gentleman from Germany. We were chatting before the show and at intermission. And this is not that long, maybe a few months after the 2016 election. First of all, I was like apologizing, “I’m so sorry that we’re flipping this person on the world, including you.” And he said, “Oh, it’ll be OK. It is America. America always comes through, it’ll be OK.” And then he said, “Hey, listen, any country that could produce music like this, is always going to be OK. And I just said, “Thank you. I appreciate your good wishes.” But in my mind, I thought back to 1935 or so. It is like, “Hey, there are a lot of people in Germany,” but then we’re like, “OK, this is the land of Beethoven. We’re civilized people. We’re not going to fall into barbarity.” And to the best of my recollection, they did.

So, personally, I do feel nervous. I’m wondering, where the people are going to wind up taking a stand here. We’ll find out within the next couple of days, even wind up speaking to you next week from today. And there won’t be a world anymore, in which case, that’ll be that. I don’t think anything like that quite yet, but I do think so much is on the line. In 4 years, you can do a lot of damage, which he has. In four more years where he feels unrestrained, the damage would only multiply.

Jacobsen: Jon, thank you so much for your time today.

Engel: Thank you, Scott. Listen, you take care of yourself and hopefully we will right the world at least a little bit in the next couple of days. Take care, Scott.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Professor Burge 18: Electorate Political Party Space

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/02

Professor Ryan Burge‘s website states: “I am an Assistant Professor of Political Science as well as the Graduate Coordinator at Eastern Illinois University. I teach in a variety of areas, including American institutions, political behavior, and research methods. My research focuses largely on the intersection between religiosity and political behavior (especially in the American context). Previously, I have completed an appointment as a post doctoral research fellow at the Paul Simon Public Policy Institute in Carbondale, Illinois. While there I was an adviser on issues of survey methodology and polling, as well as providing data collection and analysis.

I have published over a dozen articles in a number of well regarded peer reviewed journals including Politics & Religion, the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, the Review of Religious Research, the Journal of Religious Leadership, RepresentationPoliticsGroupsand Identities, the Journal of Communication and Religion, the Journal of Religion, Media and Digital Culture and the Social Science Computer Review. 

In addition, my research has been covered in a variety of media outlets including The New York Times, The Washington Post, CNN, NBC, Vox, 538, BuzzFeed News, Al-Jazeera, Christianity Today, Religion News Service, The Daily Mail, Deseret News, World Magazine, Relevant, and C-SPAN. I am the co-founder and frequent contributor to Religion in Public, a forum for scholars of religion and politics to make their work accessible to a more general audience.

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about Nones, politics, and electorate political space.

*Interview conducted on November 23, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: In a previous session with a previous question, I remember or recall a review of atheists or the Nones in general having an increasing share of the voting base for Republicans and therefore, by implication, Trump, in the last two elections. However, in the 2020 election, compared to the 2016 election, there has been a decline for atheists, agnostics, and nothing in particular. So, the Nones in general, do you think that’s just a blip, a regression of that trend in terms of a reduction of those who support Republican Party policies and politicians? Or do you think that that is more of a trend? This is more a sign of a decline or long term erosion of support among the Nones for Republicans.

Professor Ryan Burge: I think that Trump was good at driving away that less than a million, like insanely good at it because of his pandering to Evangelicals and some of his policies were focused on shoring up the base of white Evangelicals, which he did. They got that. You got to think that white Evangelicals. So, he succeeded in that effort. But I do wonder if he gave away a lot of religious folks that he could have won, if he would have reached out in any way at all instead of pandering to the Christian Nationalists. So, I did a presentation for the American Atheists organization where I, basically, walked everyone through the data they have for 2020, so far. And it does look like that the Nones abandoned Trump even more, this time. Atheists were 15% for 2016, then it was 10%. Agnostics are right about the same. In particular, an even bigger number, 6% or 7% of adults together, you get about 2% of the vote that switched from Trump in 2016 to Biden in 2020. That, by itself, is enough to get the win for Joe Biden in 2020. But I think you make a good point. I think this election would be what we talked about. It is a sorting election, clean the electorate and in a severe way. I don’t know. Other Republicans are going to be less controversial than Donald Trump. I do wonder if those Republicans can get back to 15%. Then it becomes a lot more competitive for Republicans, which is Trump was unable to play the base in 2020. And that’s, I think, one of the reasons he lost what he was able to make become any bigger than everybody got in 2016, again. And he just wasn’t able to do that. So, that’s enough for him to lose.

Jacobsen: Democrats, the white Evangelicals are not budging aggregately. Republicans have this in their favour. Why is this so? And what is an extended commentary for Democrats? What is an extended commentary for Republicans?

Burge: Yes, so, for years, like clockwork, there is this thing, which is an industrial complex that the Democrats are going to win back some white Evangelicals. They’re going to raise a bunch of money and put up these organizations and try to win over enough white Evangelicals to show, “Oh, we can win back the religious vote every year or every presidential election cycle.” It is the same thing: white Evangelicals, 78% of Republicans. That goes back to John McCain four years ago. There’s no reason to believe the white Evangelicals are going to move. They are committed to Republicans as black pastors are to Democrats. There is no switching there. There’s no movement there. There’s no daylight there. So, all these things that the Democrats have been trying to do to win over these white Evangelicals has, basically, been a waste of time and resources. At the same time, though, I would argue that one of Trump’s major flaws was he pandered to white Evangelicals the whole time. Which was why Evangelicals vote 78%, whether moving the capital to Jerusalem or whatever else he did because they love Donald Trump, so, I think for Trump, the Democrats should focus their attention somewhere else. The Republicans should also focus their attention somewhere else to try to win groups like white Catholics and Hispanic Catholics and Evangelicals, other groups that actually can swing and they’ve shown a propensity to swing a little bit from election to election and that’s where the election is decided. Not the blocs, the concrete blocks on both sides, it is the middle of the electorate where all this stuff work outs. It seems like, especially most Republicans, that they ignored that fact this time. And just luckily for Joe Biden, he was likable enough to win them over at this time.

Jacobsen: How do people view the electorate in a political party space?

Burge: So, it is fascinating, I think, where you get to see how people view the electorate. They like how they view the anchors in political space. And what I think is fascinating are atheists, atheists from 2012 to 2016 for themselves are in lockstep with the Democratic Party. They place themselves right in the same spot, which they place the Democrats. But for 2016, obviously, before the interesting happened, atheists saw themselves drifting further and further to the left of the ideological spectrum, but then they saw the Democratic Party basically moving further and further to the right of the ideological spectrum. And now atheists see themselves as being more liberal than the Democrats, which is the only religious group in America today to see themselves as being more liberal than the Democrats. And there’s not a single religious organization that sees himself as being more conservative than the Republicans. So, atheists see themselves as a way out for the left. Even past the Democratic Party now, which I think tells you a lot about how the Democrat Party is becoming moderate when everyone else is becoming more liberal.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Jon 27: “Superstition ain’t the way”

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/02

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New YorkHere we talk about the superstition, Covid, and the American problems when they come together at the same time.

*Interview conducted October 12, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, I want to frame this particular session around paranormal beliefs. There are the supernatural beliefs, paranormal beliefs. Maybe, they can be categorized largely as extra-normal beliefs or some larger set of nonsense beliefs and non-empirical beliefs, generally. So, in a 2017 survey by Chapman University in Orange, California, they looked at seven, at least, paranormal beliefs. I want to list those quickly to frame this conversation today. 55% of Americans believe ancient advanced civilizations such as Atlantis once existed. 52% believe places can be haunted by spirits. 35% believe aliens have visited Earth in our ancient past. 26% believe aliens have come to Earth in modern times. 25% believe some people can move objects with their minds. 19% believe fortune tellers and psychics can foresee the future. 16% believe Bigfoot is a real creature. The punchline to all of this, 5% of Americans hold all seven of those beliefs and only 25.3% hold none of those. Again, this is from Chapman University in 2017 on paranormal beliefs. So, let’s talk about untouchability as one of the reasons for the prevalence or the ubiquity of these beliefs, why, and also how, does this tie into a New York Times article that you read?

Jonathan Engel: It is clear. That’s frightening to think that that many people believe these things. Although, I would say that one of the things that’s interesting is that a lot of everyday Americans would look at something like that, at least the ones who don’t believe those kinds of things. And I know it is only 25% who don’t believe any of them, but many of that 25% would look at those things and say – and laugh and chuckle, “Oh, boy, I can’t believe the things people believe. But how different is any of that then to believing in literal religious beliefs, mainline religious beliefs.” But taking them literally, as fundamentalist Christians do, as ultra-Orthodox Jews do, it is not that there’s no difference, but simply believing in something for which there was no evidence and that absolutely defies the laws of nature. And recently, we’ve seen the harm that can be done. I’m thinking about the situation with Covid in this country. And it is pretty clear by now that the United States has had the worst response and continues to have the worst response to Covid of any Western nation. And there’s any number of reasons for this.

But I think one of the reasons that people are afraid to say it, hesitant to say it, is because religion is so sacrosanct in this country, by which I mean fundamentalist religious beliefs. And we’re seeing that just this past Saturday, there have been several articles in The New York Times and there have been articles going for the last few days about an outbreak of Covid in Orthodox Jewish areas. Both in Brooklyn and in New York City and in some small communities that are just a little bit north of New York City. And in response to those outbreaks, Governor Cuomo, for the state, and Mayor de Blasio, for New York City, have imposed some new restrictions. Like many places, when you get an outbreak, there are restrictions, then we slowly come out of those restrictions. But then when you get an outbreak, you have to re-impose them. So, almost reimposing restrictions on areas, many of which are home to large ultra-Orthodox Jewish communities. They have gone crazy. They sued Cuomo. They’re yelling, “It is anti-Semitism.” And believe me, I’m sensitive to anti-Semitism [Ed. Engel is Jewish.], but I know it when I see it. And this isn’t it.

Anti-Semitism certainly exists. It is a terrible problem still in this world and this country and this city. But like I said, I know when I see it and this isn’t it. They’re not being targeted because they’re Jewish, no matter how much they want to say they are. They are being targeted because they’re not following the basic guidelines and, therefore, they’re having an outbreak. And that outbreak affects, endangers, everybody, everybody in the USA, every single person. My wife, kids, and I, my 96-year-old mother and everybody in New York City. Everybody in the state is endangered when people don’t follow these rules. And the thing that’s interesting is, I find, mainstream news sources like The Times don’t want to come right out and say this. They’re saying, “We need to follow the science. We need to follow the science,” but they don’t take it to the next step and say, “Why aren’t some people following the science?” And the answer is: Some people don’t believe in it. People believe that there’s this sky deity that protects them, which will protect them from Covid or doesn’t reward them. For being, I don’t know, selfish assholes. They were down here on Earth in the next life.

We’ve seen these super spreader events. In fact, one of the first outbreaks in the United States, in North America, was around the Orthodox community just a little bit north of New York. And of course, we’ve seen many fundamentalist preachers saying, “We will not shut down our churches. We will have our church meetings,” etc. In defiance not only of laws and of regulations put out by their governors, but in defiance of any common sense, and clearly, in my view, I have seen that fundamentalist religion is contrary to science. And I don’t understand that there are people who are going to church or synagogue or mosque, but they still believe in science. They compartmentalize. That’s fine for them. It is absolutely their way. When it comes to fundamentalist religion, it is simply not compatible with science. So, the response in some of these communities has been anti-science. I think it is one of the things that has caused us to have this response to Covid that has been the worst in the Western world.

Jacobsen: Now, is it Tom Friedman?

Engel: Yes.

Jacobsen: Yes. He’s the writer for The New York Times. And if he’s writing some articles and he can’t even touch his ‘sacrosanct’ beliefs in the United States, in The New York Times of all publications, where does this leave even mainstream discussion on religious issues? If you can’t openly, even gently, critique some of the fundamentalist religious ideas pervasive in the United States, especially based on the Chapman University survey, why aren’t even fringe paranormal beliefs able to be critiqued? This, by implication, only leaves neutral or positive commentary on fundamentalist religious beliefs or personal beliefs? I think that’s a natural implication of that conclusion of those two premises in the argument. If you have a pervasive set of fundamentalist religious beliefs and personal religious beliefs in the United States, and if you can’t speak opposingly to them in public fora, then you can only speak neutrally or positively about them. So, this becomes a self-reinforcing cycle, which is a problem. It emboldens an anti-intellectualism in a negatively ignorant culture.

Engel: Yes, I think that that’s absolutely true. And it is a big problem. Talking about Tom Friedman, who, by the way, is a smart guy, it is not like I don’t think he knows. Last Wednesday, they are talking about Covid. So, it is like speaking of “Mother Nature.” So, it is one of the things for the questions you have. The answer is: It is your adaptive response to the virus. Grounded in chemistry, biology and physics, because that is all I am, if it is grounded instead in politics, ideology, markets and an election calendar, you will fail and your community will equally pay. Now, what’s interesting, in his response, you’re going to have to pay a price for your response to Covid if it is grounded in politics or ideology or markets or an election calendar, but he doesn’t mention religion.

And I think he knows that if your Covid response is grounded in – I think it is like Stevie Wonder – profound superstition, if you believe in things you don’t understand, you’re going to suffer. This is the same thing with this country again. It is religious beliefs that are so sacrosanct that they wouldn’t touch them. Now, listen, if you want to believe certain aspects of nonsense things, and if they don’t hurt anybody else, then go right ahead. I’m a big believer in the First Amendment, but like all the rights that are enumerated in the Constitution.

It is not absolute freedom of religion. Freedom to practice is not absolute free exercise of religion and not an absolute. Things can go right to swinging your fist at my nose, when you start hurting people. And this whole thing is the perfect proving grounds for that because nobody gets Covid in isolation. You have Covid. You have the disease. You are a danger to everybody else. And there’s the danger. Everything comes close to them. I actually see these Trump rallies with thousands of lunatics without masks, which I think, by the way, we’re going to get another glimpse of today. It is one thing to say, “What? They want to go there and endanger their lives. Go right ahead.” The problem is that the same guy who goes to a Trump rally on the way home when he stops at the 7-Eleven to buy himself a soda. He’s endangering the folks and anybody else within that 7-Eleven. So, this is not the type of thing that’s restricted to you. So, your religious beliefs. You can go ahead and have all in your life.

If you want to think that God will protect you from Covid, you can go ahead and take the job of protecting people. But if you don’t wear a mask, you’re endangering me. And I don’t think God will protect me from Covid. So, you have your right to your religious beliefs, but you don’t have the right to put me into danger. And you’re putting me in danger. You can’t, or at least you shouldn’t, be able to hide behind, “This is my religious belief,” in order to just go ahead to leave dangerous practices that endanger me. But again, we talk about the importance of following the science. You see so many people talk about following the science, but in this country, only few of them. I’m talking to people that you see on TV, the politicians and pundits or whatever, few of them are willing publicly to make that connection that we have to follow the science. And if you’re not following the science, whether it is because you think Trump is Superman, or whether it is because you think your religion is going to stamp out Covid. You’re not following the science. That’s a danger. But they won’t be connected to the religion. And I think that, in and of itself, is a real danger and a real problem.

Jacobsen: There is some research by people who are serious and sober into the subject matter of critical thinking and working to combat these beliefs openly in public. Apparently, a more aggressive and assertive and firm approach to individuals who harbor these beliefs does the opposite. They go home. They simmer, maybe. They become more entrenched in non-reality-based beliefs. If not the overarching non-reality-based belief structures, in fact, if they become more entrenched in individual beliefs, they become more entrenched in the overarching structure that holds the individual beliefs. So, the gentle, slow approach is the most effective. However, it is difficult to maintain when there’s so much nonsense around in the United States. What is it you find that works?

Engel: Yes, I hear you. And I believe in research and evidence. And if that’s what the research evidence shows, and I can make some common sense, then I think that’s the way we have to go; it brings up two problems. One is what is just in my head. My head may want to explode. I want to scream at these people, but I won’t outside of our conversation, because I understand what you’re saying. But the problem with Covid is that that’s a slow process and Covid kills people quickly. So, yes, and listen, I give a lot of props, because they are taking a firm stand now with the ultra-Orthodox Jews. The fact that they are taking a firm stand now. And that’s not going to help them politically. I understand what you’re saying, but the problem that they are facing again is the immediacy of this. And I can see we are taking the gentle, slower approach just saying, “Hey, let’s talk about what you think.” The idea is to get people thinking. You can’t yell at people, “You have to change. You’re an idiot. You can’t do that,” but I can understand that. But they don’t effectuate change. But again, the difficulty that we’re seeing here is that that’s a wonderful long term project, but Covid is with us in the short term and it kills quickly. So, whereas I see the point that we are trying to change the minds of people who are in fundamentalist religion, it is going to be a slow and gentle process and one that has the best chance of working. I also say that right now; someone like Governor Cuomo doesn’t have the luxury of doing this slow process directly, not necessarily in terms of beliefs, but in terms of practices he had to confront this directly and quickly. He had no choice; because, otherwise, we could be back in a second wave seeing thousands of people dying again.

Jacobsen: Jon, as always, thanks so much for your time.

Engel: My pleasure, Scott.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Professor Burge 17: Interethnic Marriage, Racism, Exit Polls, and QAnon

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/01

Professor Ryan Burge‘s website states: “I am an Assistant Professor of Political Science as well as the Graduate Coordinator at Eastern Illinois University. I teach in a variety of areas, including American institutions, political behavior, and research methods. My research focuses largely on the intersection between religiosity and political behavior (especially in the American context). Previously, I have completed an appointment as a post doctoral research fellow at the Paul Simon Public Policy Institute in Carbondale, Illinois. While there I was an adviser on issues of survey methodology and polling, as well as providing data collection and analysis.

I have published over a dozen articles in a number of well regarded peer reviewed journals including Politics & Religion, the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, the Review of Religious Research, the Journal of Religious Leadership, RepresentationPoliticsGroupsand Identities, the Journal of Communication and Religion, the Journal of Religion, Media and Digital Culture and the Social Science Computer Review. 

In addition, my research has been covered in a variety of media outlets including The New York Times, The Washington Post, CNN, NBC, Vox, 538, BuzzFeed News, Al-Jazeera, Christianity Today, Religion News Service, The Daily Mail, Deseret News, World Magazine, Relevant, and C-SPAN. I am the co-founder and frequent contributor to Religion in Public, a forum for scholars of religion and politics to make their work accessible to a more general audience.

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about interracial marriage, religion, vote switching, exit polls, and conspiracy theories.

*Interview conducted on November 23, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Now, on the subject matter of interracial marriage or interethnic marriage, white Evangelicals and Muslims and to some extent Jewish people agree with the statement, ‘I prefer that my closer relatives and my spouses are from the same race.’ Atheists are down at 6%, nothing in particular at 7.5%. So, it’s a pretty big chasm in terms of attaching one’s religious identity to an ethnic identity to some degree.

Professor Ryan Burge: Yes, that’s a good question. So, I think atheists are just more pluralist overall, but I also think it is a matter of scarcity, too. When you consider the fact that 6% of Americans are Atheist, 6% of Americans are Agnostic, they’re a small group anyway, bring race and the picture becomes even smaller. So, let’s say you are a black atheist, or a Hispanic atheist, if you want to marry a spouse from another race, you also probably want your religion to match; your partisanship to match. There’s other data out there that people are becoming less and less willing for their kids to marry someone from a different political party. And we know how well that leads to religion, with partisanship. So, we put all those three things together with people. What happened is they want their family unit to be cohesive politically, so, what you just want to do: You want to marry someone who’s got the same race and the same affiliation to the party. I think race is tied up with partisanship, too. So, we talk about atheists, agnostics. We know they’re much more pluralistic when it comes to things like multiculturalism, multiracialism, also different places are much more urban. There’s a much higher likelihood they could find someone of another race in America.

It is like white Evangelicals. A lot of them are from rural areas or suburban areas, where it is predominantly white. So, it is easier to marry someone who’s white. I do think it is obvious there’s a racial component of this – straight up racism. That’s why you don’t want to fix the racism issues and things like that. But I also think, and this is an important part, this is tied up with age, too, because we know that atheists are younger. Average atheist Americans are only 41-years-old. The average mainline Protestants, 58-years-old. So, when you bring it into the equation, you see that younger generations are much more multiracial, much more open to other races. Older people aren’t. So, it is combining a bunch of stuff together on this question. I think it bears in an interesting way.

Jacobsen: Now, a white Evangelical is twice as likely to switch their vote from Clinton to Trump rather than Trump to Biden. What’s going on, man?

Burge: I like where we are going there right now. Look, the exit polls are still trying to figure out what the heck happened with the white Evangelical vote. I am convinced that religious sorting, religious/political sorting, has hit its absolute peak in the 2020 election. What you’re seeing is, people who have aligned with their political ambitions as much with their religious ambitions as humanly possible now. And what we’re seeing more and more, I think, people don’t want to live lives of incongruence. They want everything in their life to match up to this scheme. To religion, politics, race, even things like suburban, urban, rural, that geography is part of it, too. So, they’re just realigning themselves in a specific way to match up with this consistency. So, politics is another one of those things where we’re seeing sorting. I don’t know if we can get any further sorting. It seems like, there’s not much left to sort now. When you see a group like 80%, 20%, that’s almost as much sorting as you could possibly see in nature. So, I think we’re seeing more and more of that with Trump. Trump is one of those polarizing figures. I can’t imagine a more polarizing figure in American politics in my lifetime than Donald Trump. So, either you love him or you hate him, I think he’s actually accelerated things quite a bit by making it so hard to like him. You can’t just be on the fence about Donald Trump. You love him or hate him. There’s no in-between. I think he accelerated the sorting too.

Jacobsen: So, why don’t you trust exit polls on religions? All races, Trump 68%. The AP vote cast all races, Trump 46%. NBC white only, Trump 66%. However, Trump doing worse in rustbelt states with a ton of Catholics. What’s going on?

Burge: Yes, I think exit poll numbers are going to be right now probably all over the place on the stuff. Exit polls are bad. They can be good because the way they work is they just grab people as they exit the polls and say, “Here you get the short survey talking about who you voted for.” It is a basic demographic survey and then they go either way. The problem is that they pull people from the line in inconsistent ways, in ways that are not truly relevant, because we know that there’s no response bias from certain groups of people who are low income and to not answer because they have to go back to work. We know that women are more social than men. So, when you did get exit polls, you’re already getting a biased sample. So, it has never been that good anyway. But now, over half the vote in 2020 did not exit the poll because they never went to the polls, they voted by mail. So, you’re getting a bad version of a half a sample, which we know that the sample of the exit polls was biased towards Trump because when the mail is available; it was overwhelmingly blue, but the walking vote was overwhelmingly red. So, from that, you can’t get a full sense of what actually happened until we get with the voter verified data, which has come out for months and months and months. Like I have been telling people, I didn’t know the real story of 2020 until probably March or April. So, it is still early.

But the problem is, is your people that the media has report, they haven’t told these stories about religion. So, it is bad. People are using these stories from exit polling and don’t know what the real story is yet. I have not got my hands on the data, yet. So, I don’t trust exit polls. They are bad and they have never been worse.

Jacobsen: For those who like theodicy, who have a deep need for closure in terms of explanations, they are going to look at teleology in the world. They’re going to look at some purpose in the world. It is going to be some battle between good and evil. It is an American general view, but many people’s ideas about phenomena in their view of the world, too, of a cosmic battle between good and evil. This has various effects. So, with regards to QAnon, which I note is this highly American phenomenon, though spreading. As a conspiracy theory, it has twice as much support, roughly, amongst Evangelicals compared to the Nones, in particular Atheists and Agnostics. Why is that true? Why is that particularly acute among them?

Burge: That’s actually interesting, like the theory for that myself. If you talk to people about religion and you, you get to a completely different takes on it. There’s a whole group of people that think that Q is what happens when we don’t have religion, that people go out in search of something to fill that void and things like QAnon are ways to fill that void. Now, there’s another way of thinking, “No, no, no, listen. Q Works amongst religious people because Q is reliant on some pretty magical, fantastical, miraculous thinking, which is what Evangelicals are prone to do, because frankly they do that when it comes to Jesus in the Bible and things like that.” So, those theories seem plausible and, in a lot of ways, is a replacement for religion or is make religious people more susceptible to it.

So, we did a survey. We actually found that Evangelicals are twice, nearly twice as likely to believe a Q as religiously unaffiliated people, but just think about Q and this creates difficulties. Is Q only a phenomenon on the right, not of a non-partisan conspiracy theory? It is definitely a right wing conspiracy theory. Atheists, agnostics are typically much more left leaning and Evangelicals much more right leaning. So, hard to pick apart, how much of that has to do with their political partisanship versus conspiratorial thinking in general? So, that’s something we’re certainly working on with a paper about in the future – how those pieces are apart and figure out what’s politics doing in the work or if it’s religion or lack thereof doing the work. But no one’s done work on QAnon, yet. We wanted to be one of the first. So, that was our effort to be one of the first.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Professor Burge 16: Family Separation, “Protestant,” and Secularization

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/06/29

Professor Ryan Burge‘s website states: “I am an Assistant Professor of Political Science as well as the Graduate Coordinator at Eastern Illinois University. I teach in a variety of areas, including American institutions, political behavior, and research methods. My research focuses largely on the intersection between religiosity and political behavior (especially in the American context). Previously, I have completed an appointment as a post doctoral research fellow at the Paul Simon Public Policy Institute in Carbondale, Illinois. While there I was an adviser on issues of survey methodology and polling, as well as providing data collection and analysis.

I have published over a dozen articles in a number of well regarded peer reviewed journals including Politics & Religion, the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, the Review of Religious Research, the Journal of Religious Leadership, Representation, Politics, Groups, and Identities, the Journal of Communication and Religion, the Journal of Religion, Media and Digital Culture and the Social Science Computer Review.

In addition, my research has been covered in a variety of media outlets including The New York Times, The Washington Post, CNN, NBC, Vox, 538, BuzzFeed News, Al-Jazeera, Christianity Today, Religion News Service, The Daily Mail, Deseret News, World Magazine, Relevant, and C-SPAN. I am the co-founder and frequent contributor to Religion in Public, a forum for scholars of religion and politics to make their work accessible to a more general audience.

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about “Protestant” as a term, family separation, and secularization.

*Interview conducted on November 23, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: To begin, how unaware are young people of this term, “Protestant”? What is implied in that term first? And why are young people not aware of it as much?

Professor Ryan Burge: “Protestant,” it’s a funny word because it’s a word that if you are a researcher of religion, everyone understands what it means. But if you’re a lay person, you’re an average human being, American bopping around population; you don’t really understand what the word means. You might have heard it a few times, but it’s a term that most people haven’t. Christians in America are Protestant because they’re Episcopalian, Lutherans, Methodists, or Baptists or whatever. They’re not Catholic. If you’re Christian and not Catholic, then you’re by definition a Protestant, including non-denominational people. And that’s the thing with a lot of Christianity now, which has moved away from labels and even the denominational labels. Things like Baptists, let alone terms like “Protestants.” The survey that I have access to asks the question, “What is your present religion, e.g., Protestant, Catholic, Mormon, Orthodox…?” It has an option that says, “Christian other than above.” And what’s really interesting, is lots and lots of young people pick that option. A quarter of people aged 18 to 25 say they’re “Christian other than above.” Less than 7% say, “Protestant,” which really means that 30% are Protestant, but only seven percent know they’re Protestant, which means that almost three quarters of Protestant young people don’t know they’re Protestant. Which makes it incredibly difficult for us to classify people religiously, if you don’t even know what the heck you are, it adds a wrinkle to like religious measurement in America or across the world. How can we hit a moving target when I don’t understand the target?

Jacobsen: Why does no one support family separation? Why is family integration and maintenance incredibly popular?

Burge: I think American civic religion, which is beyond and above religion, puts a lot of emphasis on family as an important part of American life. Even monotheist, even your humanists, or secularists, these kind of people still put a great deal of emphasis on having a strong family structure. And they think that Americans especially put a lot of emphasis on protecting children and keeping children in a safe, warm, loving environment as much as they can. Definitely separation cuts to the heart of all that stuff because it takes children away from their parents. And I think most of us, when it comes to immigration, understand that it’s a crime, but only in a way that the crime of people trying to make a better life for themselves. So pulling kids away from their parents, for that crime specifically, just seems like a tremendous, tremendous amount of overreach and a lot of variability over you. If you could commit a crime to go to prison, you’re away from your family. But I think most Americans understand there’s a tremendous difference between, rape or murder or robbery than it is with jumping across the border to try to go work and trying to make a better life for your family. So I think it’s a punishment that doesn’t fit the crime for a lot of people when it comes to family separation.

Jacobsen: Now, I want to turn back to the first question before about defining Protestant as a general statistical matter, demographic matter. How do you get around these issues of getting to the facts of the matter when individuals themselves, by and large, may not necessarily know the ideas you have in mind when you’re trying to catalogue things? So, people use the word “Protestant.” They don’t know what the word Protestant means, but people who are studying it professionally to try to get the right answers have a precise definition. That which the public may or may not know about.

Burge: So it’s not easy, but there are ways around it. And one of them is we typically ask for self-identification questions, which is, “What do you consider yourself, Born Again or Evangelical?” And so if you say, “Yes,” to that question, you say you’re a Christian, then we’re going to assume you’re an Evangelical Christian. So, it’s actually about a whole lot of other people who do this kind of stuff and say, “Let’s move away from religious tradition as an idea, and let’s just ask you what you are.” So, if you say you’re Evangelical, we’ll just go, “Okay, you’re Evangelical.” It does work reasonably well. I think it’s a very good question. I think we are struggling, with religious education, religious knowledge goes to the general population. It makes our job harder and harder. But I do think that we can use other kinds of proxies, like going to church live is a pretty good proxy for Protestant, Catholic. Most people who are Catholic know they’re Catholics. That sorts that out pretty quickly. So, I think that because Christianity is the default religion in America and people know that part of it. We can use some identification standards, certain ways that backdoor our way into what like an Evangelical is, for instance.

Jacobsen: Now, 40% of evangelicals in the pew on Sunday were under 40 in the 1970s. In the 2010s, it was 29%. That is the loss of about a quarter. Why?

Burge: Because there’s a generational replacement thing where the older generation is still pretty Christian, overwhelmingly Christian. Actually, very few and probably less than 10% identify religious and political people over the age of 75. But then, they’re being replaced when they die. They’re being replaced by a younger generation where we’re seeing data analysis. Generation Z, which if you’re born in 1995 or later. 40%+ of them are religiously unaffiliated. And that is because they grew up in a culture, America, for a generations was a default Christian country. You were just Christian by your very upbringing. Now, if you grew up, you grew up in a world of religious pluralism. You could go online and research Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, or being Atheist or Agnostic. So, it’s become more culturally acceptable, religiously unaffiliated. It’s when you do that, what happens to the people; they just tick what they really are, People who are Nones 40 years ago actually said it. It’s because there’s been no way they can really take that option, because it is not socially acceptable. And so, it’s become more socially acceptable. We do see more and more people not going to church. And, really what you’re seeing, secularization coming to America like it came in Europe, for instance.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Mandisa 62: Secular Communities and Current Issues

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/01

Mandisa Thomas, a native of New York City, is the founder and President of Black Nonbelievers, Inc. Although never formally indoctrinated into belief, Mandisa was heavily exposed to Christianity, Black Nationalism, and Islam. As a child she loved reading, and enjoyed various tales of Gods from different cultures, including Greek and Ghanaian. “Through reading these stories and being taught about other cultures at an early age, I quickly noticed that there were similarities and differences between those deities and the God of the Christian Bible. I couldn’t help but wonder what made this God so special that he warrants such prevalence today,” she recalls.

Here we talk about secular communities and current issues (2020).

*This was conducted June 15, 2020.*

Scott Jacobsen: What is the state of things, now, in secular communities and in those with an interest in non-intellectual stuff, in the activism? What is the state of things now?

Mandisa Thomas: There is a huge focus on what’s happening right now in the world – current events. There’s a lot of interest in the black community, and what was going on with the systemic problems of racism and economic injustice. People wanting to know what they can do: how do they support organizations that are working specifically in these areas. Also, they want to know how they can better support organizations like BN that are on the front lines. So, it is very interesting to see that shift; to better understand how they all connect beyond church-state separation. 

Jacobsen: And what do you make of more prominence for the voices who have always been there, but have not been noticed as much because they’ve been living in the shadow of what, more or less, has become an echo chamber? People like yourself for community organizing. People like Dr. Hutchinson for a lot of the intellectual sociological commentary. We could go to list some relative to numbers within that particular demographic, as you say, for instance, a secular bloc in the United States. What do you make of this not massive rise, but a modest attempt in light of recent protests to reach out, to fund, to platform some of these voices who have always been there but just were not used properly before?

Thomas: So, of course, I think it is always great when we activists, authorsand organizers finally get the support that we deserve. We understand that even though it can be frustrating, that it takes some time for the importance of our work to catch on. But sometimes, we cannot help but wonder: Why all of the interest now? Is it because these issues are trending, or are people truly looking to be part of long-term solutions? But of course, we are optimistic, and are confident that people will continue to support our work for years to come.

Jacobsen: I noted this to you before. My own assumption: It is going to spike now and dip back down, but remain above baseline moving forward. That seems to be the general trend. And it is kind of a spike.

Thomas: Yes, we are definitely seeing a spike at this time. And we want it to continue, because this fight is not over. These changes need to go beyond the cycle and not go back to where they were before. The key is to support us consistently. 

Jacobsen: Ma’am, thanks so much for your time.

Thomas: Thank you.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Jon 26: Statolatry, Religiosity, Democracy, and Secularism

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/01

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New YorkHere we talk about the Supreme Court and religious threats to public health and democratic norms.

*Interview conducted December 30, 2020*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, today, we are back with our good friend Jon. We’ll be talking about some interesting, inadvertent, indirect alliances in terms of the outcomes of a court case. So, there were two situations, one of which regards the Catholics. Another was with regards to a large Jewish gathering and then the result with a 5-4 decision, the Supreme Court of the United States. What happened? What was the outcome? What does this mean for secular communities?

Jonathan Engel: Basically what happened was that Governor Andrew Cuomo of New York issued executive orders that limited large gatherings in order to fight Covid, including religious gatherings, an example of the type of thing that Cuomo was looking to fight. And the reason why issues were ordered was a number of weeks ago, I think was about three weeks ago. Something like that. There was this huge wedding in Brooklyn among the Ultra-Orthodox Jews. You understand weddings like this. Thousands of people attended these weddings. Because it is the wedding. It is like the grand rabbi’s son or daughter getting married and like the entire community is invited. And they had this huge wedding with thousands of people. By the way, at those weddings, men and women are strictly separate and there’s tons of dancing. But men dance with men and women dance with women. The implications of any of that, we’re going to skip over for now.

But in any event, so Cuomo, that congregation was fined and Cuomo issued this order limiting these religious gatherings for purely secular reasons, for health reasons. So, two lawsuits were brought against Cuomo’s order by disparate groups. It was the Roman Catholic Diocese of Brooklyn versus Cuomo. And the other suit was the Agudath Israel of America, which is a big Ultra-Orthodox umbrella group vs Cuomo.

Jacobsen: Right there. It is the setup for a good Jerry Seinfeld joke.

Engel: Yes, I would think so. I would think so. But strange bedfellows, right? I guess politics makes strange bedfellows, but religion makes even stranger bedfellows. And they sued and the cases were consolidated in the Supreme Court. And last Wednesday, on the night before Thanksgiving, the Supreme Court, this is one of their first cases, argued with Amy Coney Barrett, who was just appointed. Another very, very, extremely religious person who was just appointed to the court by Trump. And in a 5 to 4 decision, they ruled that the foremost order violated the First Amendment’s free exercise clause, thereby freeing this to spread a deadly virus throughout New York City.

And that’s where we are right now. Right now, Cuomo is basically asking, talking to religious communities and saying, “Look, I can’t force you to obey social distancing and to help us keep everybody safe. But I’m asking you to. If I can put the Supreme Court that they can’t force you to, but I’m asking you to.” And I want to emphasize here that most religious mainstream religious congregations are doing what Cuomo has asked. But the Catholic Church in this one case, and again, this umbrella group of Ultra-Orthodox Jews have no intention of following what Cuomo has asked them to do. So, my life as a resident of New York City; my life is now more in danger than it was last Wednesday because of the Supreme Court ruling. And it is frightening both for the immediate public health issues and the more public health damage that could be done. But it is also frightening, in my view, from what this Supreme Court is willing to allow religion to do, as opposed to following civil law.

Jacobsen: Now, I mean the subtext there of both the Jerry Seinfeld jokes, the fact of longstanding centuries old anti-Semitism of the Catholic Church at the same time; the larger issue is the fact of anti-secular sentiment in the United States being at a high pitch. So, I want to take another lesson for the Canadian audience here today from the New York situation, also from the larger American context. So, if you look at Statistics Canada or StatsCan, which is the official federal statistics division or information gathering of Canada, in 2011, which is the recent census that we have on total religious numbers by self identification and household. Christians are at 67.3% of Canada. So, you’ll see these numbers at around 70%, 67%, 2/3rds. These sorts of rates will come around. If you look at Pew Research, also good research organization as well, Michael Lipka published an article in 2019 and he was noting, I may have this wrong doing at the top, but I had an article in which, as a side note, as a comment, not as the focus of the article about a survey that was done in 2018. So, an article for 2019 with a survey mentioned from 2018 in which they identified Canadians as only self identifying as 55% Christian.

And so within a span of seven years, 2011 to 2018, between StatsCan and Pew Research, you have a difference from 67.3% to 55%, which is a massive drop. So, if you do the math, 2021 should be the year in which Canadian Christians self-identified as such should be fewer than half of the total population of Canada, with margins of error for fluctuation based on different organizations doing the research and questions asked. But in general, those have been self-identifications.

The American context, it does show a decline, not as rapid, and still having more Christians in the country and in more positions of power. At the same time, the last 10 years have definitely shown an increased belligerence in light of that reduction in total numbers. What can Canadians take as a lesson from that? What can we expect in terms of just political involvement and belligerence on the part of those who feel as if they’re being compressed, when in fact they’re just reducing in numbers and then being put in the same place as everyone else, which is to seem in an equal status?

Engel: I’ll tell you. I hope it is not a harbinger of things to come from my Canadian friends and relatives. I think this is part of what’s going on in the United States with regard to that type of things. You see it from a political nature in terms of the Republican Party, which is clearly shrinking in terms of its percentage of Americans who identify as Republicans. And certainly they are a minority, but they’re looking to do things to lock in minority rule. And that’s, I think, one of the scary things that I would suggest that the people of Canada be alert for in that sense. And it is Christian, but it is also white Christians in the United States. They see that the demographics are not in their favor. As you said, fewer people are identifying as Christians. There are more non-white people in the United States than there were. So, the Republican Party as the vehicle for white Christendom in this country, they’re looking to, and they have been somewhat successful, which is scary, to lock in minority groups, so that, even though, we’re supposed to be a democracy, that they can still have the political power – even though they’re in the minority.

Now, how are they doing this? One way they have done this is their manipulation. I won’t get into the details of it. Probably, a lot of people know. But their manipulation of Supreme Court appointments, so that right now, Donald Trump just appointed 3 of the 9 United States Supreme Court justices, this is someone who lost the popular vote twice. How was that majority rule? How was that democracy? It is. But if you have a lock on the Supreme Court, you’ve got a lot of power to decide what the laws in this country will be.

And the same thing applies with what we call gerrymandering, where they create certain districts in such ways that they can wind up. And you see it a lot of times, not only in federal elections, but also in state elections, where, say, for example, I think this was recently the case in North Carolina where the Republicans had gerrymandered districts in such a way that it turned out that in an election for the state legislature, something like 53% of the people in the state voted for Democratic candidates. But of something like 50 positions available, Republicans won 30. So, wait a minute, you’re not getting the most votes. How are you winning? And the answer is the way they draw the districts in such a way, so that you have a lot of Democrats lose here. Let’s make that one district for tons and tons vote for Democrats. If there are more Republicans in other districts, then it will make that a separate district. Even though, it is much fewer people, so that they can win those Republican districts. So, what we’re seeing, again, is the threat, what I would advise mostly about is the threat to democracy that comes from white Christian people believing that their seat at the table, as the foremost people, the people with the most power fading away, that they will try to institute non-democratic norms in order to keep their power.

Jacobsen: Sir, thank you so much for your time today.

Engel: It is absolutely my pleasure, Scott.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Mandisa 61: American Elections and the Black Freethought Political Movement(s)

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/06/30

Mandisa Thomas, a native of New York City, is the founder and President of Black Nonbelievers, Inc. Although never formally indoctrinated into belief, Mandisa was heavily exposed to Christianity, Black Nationalism, and Islam. As a child she loved reading, and enjoyed various tales of Gods from different cultures, including Greek and Ghanaian. “Through reading these stories and being taught about other cultures at an early age, I quickly noticed that there were similarities and differences between those deities and the God of the Christian Bible. I couldn’t help but wonder what made this God so special that he warrants such prevalence today,” she recalls.

Here we talk about Election Day, voting, and Black secularism in the United States.

*This was conducted November 2, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, we are back with another “Ask Mandisa.” This will be an in-the-moment commentary, basically, the day before the elections close, the United States for the presidential federal election. Also, it will be published after. So it will be something like a retrospective in the moment. So, we can take that as a caveat to the entire conversation. Today, I wanted to focus on black, secular American views of elections in general. What are the conversations that tend to happen around these times? What’s the general attitude?

Mandisa ThomasSo, Election Day in the United States, particularly the Presidential election that takes every four years, is pretty tense in general. However, many of the conversations that take place in Black communities surround the candidates prioritizing our causes and interests. We are also checking for these officials to hold up their process once they are elected (or re-elected). Because far too often, we’ve seen campaign promises fall to the wayside. Also, the Supreme Court striking down parts of the Voting Rights Act in 2013, still hits a nerve. Because if we remember, historically blacks were denied the right to vote. And so many in our communities scrutinize the representatives on this basis.

There is also a heated debate in Black communities about the effectiveness of voting. While it is very important and I think we all should be doing so, the history of the United States and its dubious treatment of black folks has created serious skepticism. Ironically, there’s less skepticism of religion and how it seeps into politics, but the conversations definitely do vary. We look at things from a historical perspective, the candidates who they’re running, and whether or not they are actually aware of the issues that affect the black community, and what they’re going to do about them.

Jacobsen: How does that kind of conversation differ from religious black Americans perspective on these things?

ThomasActually, many of us share the same type of skepticism when it comes to politics and the voting, etc. But I think a major difference is that many secularists like myself don’t just vote strictly down party lines; we research our candidates more thoroughly. We like to look beyond the rhetoric, make sure that the candidates aren’t just saying what they think people want to hear, and that they’re actually going to work on behalf of the people. 

We are also mindful of the religious backgrounds of those who are running for elected offices, and if that will affect their job. I have connected with a number of candidates as a representative of Black Nonbelievers, who were actually intrigued by the fact that our organization existed. And I remember telling them that we’re a part of the voting bloc, and that we are concerned about whether or not our voices will be heard. And in true politician style, they were willing to listen. But it’s always interesting to see how that plays out when they’re not on the campaign trail anymore. But more often than not, we tend to share many of the same views.

Jacobsen: Now, there are some interesting individuals who are prominent. Yet, they would not be expected to support an individual candidate like Trump. It’s unusual people like 50 Cent, Kanye West, on face value, it would seem extremely unusual for these individuals to support Donald Trump, President Trump. However, they do. So how is that conversation had in the community? If it’s had in the community, extremely prominent people, wealthy people who are black and Americans, who support Donald Trump, when in general, many black Americans did not support Donald Trump.

Thomas: So that’s been a very interesting conversation as well. Many, believers and non-believers share many of the same views regarding classism. Because Donald Trump has shown himself to favor those who are wealthy, and there are Black celebrities who fit into that category. So, he will pander to them, which is sad, because they have no idea, or they’ve forgotten what it’s like to be a regular citizen. They are not speaking for the entire black community, and to see them portrayed a doing so, many believers or non-believers alike do not agree with them at all.

It’s quite astounding to see these particular celebrities side with Trump, especially on matters pertaining to money, and not on behalf of your average citizen. And we ask ourselves, “Wow, is it really worth it?” It’s almost as bad, if not worse, than being an open atheist, because ultimately it appears as if they are ACTUALLY betraying our communities on behalf of the mighty dollar, and also on behalf of someone who really doesn’t seem to give a crap about most people in general. And so, when they are so far removed from what’s going on every day, ultimately, they only seem to care about themselves – and definitely not the communities that many of them come from.

Jacobsen: Any final thoughts on tomorrow, Election Day?

ThomasI encourage everyone to definitely take part in the voting process. Hopefully, you would have researched your candidates and that you’re also voting on behalf of progressive and evidence-based principles. Scientific, humanistic values over self serving or corporate interests. We are the ones who make a difference. We need to realize that we can get through this pandemic if we can get through all of these other obstacles that we’re dealing with. So, I will close by saying, “Vote your values, vote your conscience, and vote on behalf of the collective and the community – not just yourself.”

Jacobsen: Mandisa, it’s a pleasure, as always.

ThomasThank you.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Professor Burge 15: The Crystal Ball for American Republicans

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/06/17

Professor Ryan Burge‘s website states: “I am an Assistant Professor of Political Science as well as the Graduate Coordinator at Eastern Illinois University. I teach in a variety of areas, including American institutions, political behavior, and research methods. My research focuses largely on the intersection between religiosity and political behavior (especially in the American context). Previously, I have completed an appointment as a post doctoral research fellow at the Paul Simon Public Policy Institute in Carbondale, Illinois. While there I was an adviser on issues of survey methodology and polling, as well as providing data collection and analysis.

I have published over a dozen articles in a number of well regarded peer reviewed journals including Politics & Religion, the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, the Review of Religious Research, the Journal of Religious Leadership, RepresentationPoliticsGroupsand Identities, the Journal of Communication and Religion, the Journal of Religion, Media and Digital Culture and the Social Science Computer Review. 

In addition, my research has been covered in a variety of media outlets including The New York Times, The Washington Post, CNN, NBC, Vox, 538, BuzzFeed News, Al-Jazeera, Christianity Today, Religion News Service, The Daily Mail, Deseret News, World Magazine, Relevant, and C-SPAN. I am the co-founder and frequent contributor to Religion in Public, a forum for scholars of religion and politics to make their work accessible to a more general audience.

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about developments of faith and non-faith and their influenc on political affiliation.

*Interview conducted on August 4, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Now, if we look at some of the stronger points of this trajectory of developments of faith and non-faith in the United States or religion/religious affiliation in the United States, do you think that this will then change the ways in which political life is represented in the United States? So, we have Republicans and Democrats with a fraction as Independent. However, in the 2016 election, the libertarians came forward and the Green Party came forward a little bit. So, do you think that might be an augury of some of the things to be coming forward in the future?

Professor Ryan Burge: To me, I think what the big shift in American politics is going to be is that the Republican Party is going to have to find ways to reach out to the Nones. You can’t keep winning elections with white Christians because they’re losing market share every single year. That is not a winning strategy long term. Might be well now, but it is going to lose you in 20 years. I think the Republican Party has to find a way to reach out to Nones who are, maybe, more moderate politically, let’s say, or even conservative to the right of center politically and say, “Listen, we do not hate you. There’s a place in our party for you.” But at the same time, they’re going to have to be opened to doing what the Democrats do, which is speaking to the black Protestants. They’re going to speak to the Nones were also speaking to the Evangelical Protestants at the same time. So, they’re going to have to start thinking about messaging going forward that doesn’t alienate their base of white Evangelicals. But also seems at least palatable to moderates or slightly right of center Nones, especially nothing in particular, which is the most interesting category in American religious life. It is 20 percent of all Americans. Over the last three elections, they’ve trended toward the Republican Party. That’s the group the Republicans need to win elections going forward.

Jacobsen: Why do Americans individually leave religion? What are the big reasons? And also, what are the big reasons they join religion in later life? I mean, people are born into it. Two thirds stay, one thirds leave. We all know that. But as adults, why do people leave religion or why do people join religion?

Burge: So the leaving thing is really hard. Sociologically, we’re still trying to figure it out. We think that there’s this big macro level stuff like secularization theory that argues that over time you become more prosperous, economically prosperous, educationally advanced, then people want religion aside. This is not something that we talked about a lot. So, the macro reason, you feel like you believe in science more, religion less. That becomes almost your ‘God.’ Science becomes your God and your belief system in a lot of ways. So, you do not need religion to explain things. You’ve got science to do it for you. That’s part of it. I mean, but there’s also things like politics, for instance. We do know that liberals in America; 40% of them are Nones now, used to be 5%. All conservatives, the number of Nones is under 10% among conservatives in America. So, it also may be politics pulling you away, but it could be we might be caught up in a larger thing in America where we’re less social anyway.

We do not go to the Elks and the Moose, and the fraternal organizations. We do not do the community service events like we used to, because we’re less social. We do not have to be social because of the Internet. That may be part of it as well. In terms of why people come back to religion, it’s more often for social reasons, not theological reasons or spiritual reasons. You come back as you are lonely, especially amongst older Americans. We know that loneliness is an absolute epidemic. Amongst the oldest Americans today most of them spend most of their time alone, which is a real tragedy, and the church becomes a social outlet for them. They can go and have friends there and those friendships they make at church can lead to the social events and social gatherings that give them a sense of purpose again. So, I think a lot of people in America come back to church for social reasons. That also extends, by the way, to young people who have kids who want them to have a moral center, and they think the church is a good moral center. So, they bring them back to church because that’s how they were raised too. So, it is all the same thing. It is more often for social reasons. I think, though, then strictly like saving your soul type of reasons.

Jacobsen: Why do only the Evangelical Christians have their numbers as the majority Christian group to be against or to oppose same-sex marriage? Every other group does not have a majority opposing same sex marriage.

Burge: Americans’ whole world shifted dramatically in favor of same-sex marriage in the last ten years. It has been unbelievable. Looking at the polling data, it is like, “Oh, my gosh, it is an aberration.” We’re talking 10 points in four years. So, I guess part of their identity is: You want to be persecuted. You seek out persecution because the Bible says if you’re persecuted you are blessed by God, that means you’re doing the right thing. So, by holding in these extreme positions, you are getting the blessing of God because it is like, “No, we do not listen to a man’s laws. We do not care what society wants. We do what the Bible says is right. The Bible says that gay people can’t get married. So, we’re not going to allow them<’ if they stand on principle, even to their own detriment sometimes. I think that is what is an Evangelical greatest strength in some ways, which is also their greatest weakness now because they’re facing a generation of people, younger people – young Evangelicals – even now who are 55% in favor of same-sex marriage.

So, even people in their own pews, they do not support the theology being taught from the pulpit. They’re trying to reach out to the generation. The younger generation was not Evangelical already. I’ve got to say: Young people are in favor of same-sex marriage. So, it is boxing them in a lot of ways because they’re not being attracted to this potential audience, because the things they believe are antithetical to what a lot of young people grew up with. So, it is there. As I said, it is their greatest strength to hold it together because it gives them this distinctive idea or distinctive identity. But at the same time, it is their greatest weakness because it will make them incredibly hard to be attractive to young people who can’t go to a church where gay people are seen as less than straight people. So, that’s why Evangelicals are what they are. For good or for ill, that’s who they are.

Jacobsen: Ryan, again, thank you so much for the wealth of information and interview today.

Burge: It is always a pleasure, Scott, appreciate it.

Jacobsen: All right, take care. Have fun at the baseball game.

Burge: Bye-bye.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Mandisa 60: Protests Matter

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/06/11

Mandisa Thomas, a native of New York City, is the founder and President of Black Nonbelievers, Inc. Although never formally indoctrinated into belief, Mandisa was heavily exposed to Christianity, Black Nationalism, and Islam. As a child she loved reading, and enjoyed various tales of Gods from different cultures, including Greek and Ghanaian. “Through reading these stories and being taught about other cultures at an early age, I quickly noticed that there were similarities and differences between those deities and the God of the Christian Bible. I couldn’t help but wonder what made this God so special that he warrants such prevalence today,” she recalls.

Here we talk about social movements and rhetoric.

*This was conducted June 1, 2020.*

Scott Jacobsen: So since we last talked, so it’s June 1st now, I think making an explicit timestamp is important. There are issues to do with what to do. Obviously, most of the media is focusing on individual stark events along with the protests, some minor riots. But there’s also, it’s happening throughout the country. This is expanding around the world based around at least one branch of it, a movement founded by three queer women. The United States for Black Lives Matter, there has been some in Toronto and in Vancouver as well. And so other than responses, people obviously are looking for solutions. And so let’s talk about the legitimate rage today and constructive pragmatic solutions to a lot of the issues that this is just a flashpoint of things that have been going on for an extremely long time in the United States. What are your thoughts when it comes to constructive pragmatic solutions here?

Mandisa ThomasYes, so as we know, there has been another string of murders of black people at the hands of law enforcement. And in one case, former law enforcement. Sadly, the black community has endured this level of terrorism for years, and we are really getting tired of hearing the same rhetorical calls for justice. Along with the justifications for the actions on behalf of the police officer(s), which usually results in them being found not guilty due to their positions of authority.

So now, there are rising levels of resistance. And the latest incident, which involved the death of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN, really sparked off unprecedented levels of global protests. While civil unrest is not uncommon throughout history, this is now a opportune time to make some serious institutional changes. For example, there needs to be an overhaul of law enforcement, especially their training tactics for hostile situations. Because deadly force isn’t always necessary, like in the case of Floyd, who died as a result of an alleged counterfeit $20 bill, and definitely Breonna Taylor, who was killed by law enforcement in Louisville, KY, as a result of a no-knock warrant. And in THAT case, the police had incorrect details about who they were supposed to be apprehending.

So there is much that many state, local and federal law enforcement agencies need to change. But as far as what the people can do, one important thing is expressing outrage as much as possible. This doesn’t affect just black folks, it also affects our entire country and communities. And it’s important to talk to to your local officials, and also contribute by either volunteering and/or donating to organizations that focus on, and are run by people of color. Whether their work ranges from direct action like protesting, to providing various support services, contribute substantively instead of just trying to get educated on these matters.

Jacobsen: And in Atlanta, we have T.I. using his fame for good, while also informing us Atlanta is Wakanda. What is being done at ground zero at home for you?

ThomasI didn’t have the opportunity to go to the protests in downtown Atlanta. But there are so many organizers who are doing wonderful work, and organizing peaceful protests. Unfortunately, the first night there was severe violence and destruction of property, including some black businesses. I know that Atlanta Mayor Keisha Lance-Bottoms, a black woman, spoke out against that part (i.e., the destruction of property and damage of property), as well as some other noted celebrities like T.I, like you mentioned,  But I think one of the worst things that people can do is JUST tell people to calm down and act like they don’t have the right to be angry.

And it’s interesting; that kind of statement implies that a utopian black society is far more advanced than any other. Which isn’t out of the realm of possibility, but it also a loaded premise. This shows that we as Black people don’t agree on everything. And honestly, there’s nothing wrong with calls for calm in a very tense situations. However, painting the protesters as the ONLY aggressors in unfair. But I know that there have been individuals and organizations who have supported the protesters with bail, and providing supplies during the protests as well. Both in Atlanta, and around the country.

I prefer foundationally supporting the activists that are directly doing the protest work. Indeed, I have attended protests in my life, and I think they are important. But right now, Atlanta is in a similar situation like many other cities.  City officials are trying to process and deal with this as much as possible – hopefully, while understanding that the people absolutely have justified anger, especially within the black community.

Jacobsen: Is it a fundamental attitude of arrogance on the part of some American citizens to dismiss the rage felt by other Americans across the board?

ThomasAbsolutely. And it is not only arrogant, it is inhumane to be dismissive of the plight of those who have been affected by police brutality. Those who have witnessed the over-policing of their neighborhoods, and the blatant disregard for the people. There are a lot of people who think that if it doesn’t happen in their area, then it doesn’t affect them. And unfortunately, it tends to be a lot of white people who are guilty of this, and we just have to be honest about that.  And it also adds to why these things don’t seem to go away. 

And just as there are reactions to those protesting the actions of law enforcement, we also witness the reactions of the citizens who side with them. Even in cases where they were excessive, which is absolutely mind-boggling to me, because there should be no unnecessary loss of life especially at their hands. Because they should be properly trained to deescalate these situations. And I do understand that many police officers are affected by the job, and that they deal with a lot of violence on many levels. That being said, there also needs to be better mental health support for law enforcement. Because if they are expected to do this job day in and day out with little to no preparation, and excessive force actions are just swept under the rug, then nothing changes. And these incidents will continue to take place.

Jacobsen: President Trump, as of yesterday at some of the heights of protest at the White House, went into the White House bunker. First, I didn’t know the White House had a bunker. Second, it is indicative as to a stance of fear of general public protest on the part of those in leadership. It appears to show an acknowledgement of doing wrong and then just hiding from the consequences. Is this fundamentally the problem since November 2016 with this current administration, with the creation of problems and then the deflection of blame and then hiding from any kind of responsibility for any problems that are caused?

Thomas: We are seeing an egregious case of a person in office who avoids responsibility and accountability as much as they possibly can. And this, unfortunately, has trickled down to the attitudes of administrators on the local levels. And years of mistreatment have left people feeling let down, and fed up.

And so, to this horrendous behavior we have witnessed, it’s important for us to take notes and action. And hopefully, we’re able to track not just this incident, but also how this president and this current administration has mistreated others, especially during the pandemic. This is not only important for the American people, but also the world.

Jacobsen: Mandisa, as always, thank you so much.

ThomasThank you.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Professor Burge 14: Projections, Demographics, and a Hunch

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/06/11

Professor Ryan Burge‘s website states: “I am an Assistant Professor of Political Science as well as the Graduate Coordinator at Eastern Illinois University. I teach in a variety of areas, including American institutions, political behavior, and research methods. My research focuses largely on the intersection between religiosity and political behavior (especially in the American context). Previously, I have completed an appointment as a post doctoral research fellow at the Paul Simon Public Policy Institute in Carbondale, Illinois. While there I was an adviser on issues of survey methodology and polling, as well as providing data collection and analysis.

I have published over a dozen articles in a number of well regarded peer reviewed journals including Politics & Religion, the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, the Review of Religious Research, the Journal of Religious Leadership, RepresentationPoliticsGroupsand Identities, the Journal of Communication and Religion, the Journal of Religion, Media and Digital Culture and the Social Science Computer Review. 

In addition, my research has been covered in a variety of media outlets including The New York Times, The Washington Post, CNN, NBC, Vox, 538, BuzzFeed News, Al-Jazeera, Christianity Today, Religion News Service, The Daily Mail, Deseret News, World Magazine, Relevant, and C-SPAN. I am the co-founder and frequent contributor to Religion in Public, a forum for scholars of religion and politics to make their work accessible to a more general audience.

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about percentages and projections, and a hunch.

*Interview conducted on August 4, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: I should at least take a step back. There is an issue in which agnostics and atheists differ. This is with regards to support for abortion, but it is more to do with support for abortion on demand. How do they differ and on what lines?

Professor Ryan Burge: Yes, so, I was really interested in what conservative atheists, like the most politically conservative atheists, agnostics: How are they politically active in the world? Politically because, I’m a political scientist. So, for us, everything is downstream of politics. So, I want to see if a politically conservative atheist or agnostic sees the world in the same way that a politically conservative Evangelical or Catholic does. Come to find out, a politically conservative agnostic, even a conservative agnostic, only 28.8% of them are in favour of abortion on demand, compared to 55% of the conservative atheist. So, they’re even more agnostic from way more pro-life, twice as pro-life as a conservative atheist. It is super interesting because it shows you something about atheists. To them, being able to get an abortion whenever you want is like sacrosanct even to conservative members of that community.

Both liberals, it’s above 90%, but even among conservatives, 55% of agnostics go from 95% to 28%. I mean, that’s a huge drop. So, it is telling me something about agnostics, how they see the world ethically and morally, and they’re not morally liberal, let’s say, as your atheists are. You shouldn’t see daylight between the two groups.

Jacobsen: So, 1978 and 2018 is a significant time with four decades looking at the ethnic grouping of whites and the timeline of going to church per week. What was the shift there between 1978 and 2018 for the three major political categories and states? That’s fascinating.

Burge: So, this is super important. Because if you look at white Democrats versus white Republicans, that’s really where the difference shoots out because black Democrats go to church a lot because of black Protestant Christianity. Black Protestants are as religiously faithful as white Evangelicals are; they go to church as much. So, you pull them out of the mix. What you see is really the difference, so, you look at a white Democrat and a white Republican. 43% of white Democrats never go to church, then another 23.7%. So, you’re talking about a total of like 2/3rds of white Democrats going to church less than once a year. Amongst white Republicans, it is only 36%. So, almost half, half as much. So, about a 1/3rd of white Republicans go to church less than once a year, compared to 66% of white Democrats.

So, half of white liberals in America today identify as religiously unaffiliated. Half of white liberals, which tells you a lot about what the future of the party. The Democratic Party to me is going to get harder and harder over time to be the party that appeals to black Protestants who are religiously active, but politically active and also theologically conservative, are cool with gay marriage and abortion. At the same time, they will need to appeal to white liberal Nones who are extra liberal on policy issues. That’s a hard circle to square to try to appeal to this group, and that group, at the same time. The Republican Party is much easier because, like we talked about, it is the party of white Christianity, which can hit those high notes. You’re going to hit 80% of the people with one message. You do not have to try mixed messages based on your audience like the Democratic Party. If I was going to campaign politics, my own views aside, it’d be a lot easier to run a campaign for a Republican candidate than a Democrat candidate. Because of that, you only have that one note. You hit it every single time. A Democrat is much more versatile with different groups.

Jacobsen: We’re looking at the trajectory of the ratios of each particular denomination or non-denomination or non-religion in the United States. If we project those 50 years forward, what will the larger groups become in the United States?

Burge: Yes, so, 50 years for denominational Christianity is going to be a small portion of America. So, your Baptists, United Methodists, Episcopalians, all those are going to be a small portion of America. Maybe, 20% of Americans are going to be part of a denomination. I still think the Catholic Church is going to hold strong. But then, I think what you’re going to see is another 20%. They’re going to be non-denominational Protestants. I think there’s going to be a day in my lifetime when non-denominational Protestants outnumber denominational Protestants. I mean, so, American Christianity, we’re going to look like a 1/3rd denominational Protestants, a third non-denominational Protestants, and a third of Catholics. That’s really what it means to some philosophizing like that. The Nones, they’re going to be made a 30% to 35% by themselves. The last 5% is going to be your atheists, Hindus, Muslims, Mormons, Buddhists – everybody else is going to fall in that category. So, I do think there’s a future where American Christianity looks much different than it does today.

Jacobsen: How big will the Nones be?

Burge: Oh, I think they’re going to peak around 40%. That’s the plateau that I see in the data. Because if you look at millennials, they hit this peak at 40%, put a hold there. So, I think that somewhere upper 30s or low 40s is where I see that stopping. I get asked about that a lot, and that’s a hunch. That’s not really based on any data. I mean, obviously, projections can change for a bunch of reasons. But I do think that I do not see a future where 50% of Americans are religiously unaffiliated, at least not in my lifetime. So, probably 40% where they’re going to peak, then America is going to be 50% people of faith, almost all of them, maybe 5%, are going to be something else. 55% are going to be your Christians probably.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Professor Burge.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Professor Burge 13: Christianity on Bleach in the Middle East

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/06/10

Professor Ryan Burge‘s website states: “I am an Assistant Professor of Political Science as well as the Graduate Coordinator at Eastern Illinois University. I teach in a variety of areas, including American institutions, political behavior, and research methods. My research focuses largely on the intersection between religiosity and political behavior (especially in the American context). Previously, I have completed an appointment as a post doctoral research fellow at the Paul Simon Public Policy Institute in Carbondale, Illinois. While there I was an adviser on issues of survey methodology and polling, as well as providing data collection and analysis.

I have published over a dozen articles in a number of well regarded peer reviewed journals including Politics & Religion, the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, the Review of Religious Research, the Journal of Religious Leadership, RepresentationPoliticsGroupsand Identities, the Journal of Communication and Religion, the Journal of Religion, Media and Digital Culture and the Social Science Computer Review. 

In addition, my research has been covered in a variety of media outlets including The New York Times, The Washington Post, CNN, NBC, Vox, 538, BuzzFeed News, Al-Jazeera, Christianity Today, Religion News Service, The Daily Mail, Deseret News, World Magazine, Relevant, and C-SPAN. I am the co-founder and frequent contributor to Religion in Public, a forum for scholars of religion and politics to make their work accessible to a more general audience.

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about higher levels of social forgiveness for pastoral leadership, Jordan Peterson, Mark Driscoll, and Eric Metaxas, and the nature of American Christianity.

*Interview conducted on August 4, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Does this bubble phenomenon reflect something akin to the rapid growth of Mark Driscoll – Mars Hill Church, followed by its scandal, popping, and collapse? He came in with the infinite forgiveness given within some of these communities. Of course, he’s starting again in a different state. However, is this a common phenomenon also tied to that? You use the term “guy” many times. Why are guys given all the authority, as well, in most of these churches?

Professor Ryan Burge: Because the Bible says so. It is really clear that they take their cue from Epistles, and it says women can’t be pastors. They have to be silent in the church. I mean, very few Evangelical churches allow women anywhere close to the pulpit. I mean, almost none. Like that is the distinction in the sort of conventional ways you can never be a woman pastor. So, I think guys because, most of these non-denominational pastors, I would say 95% or more are men as well. Even though they don’t have any sort of the doctrinal statements that the Baptists do. The only outlier I can think of was Willow Creek in Chicago. The pastor was going to retire. His church managed to appoint two people to replace him as the senior pastor. And what was the matter? One was a woman. That was scandalous for a lot of Evangelicals. That just doesn’t happen. But in Evangelicalism, 98% of pastors are men, especially preaching pastors because women can’t preach. It is just not theologically allowed. So, that’s why I say men because it is just always men.

Jacobsen: What explains the phenomenon of individuals, including Francis Chan, Matt Chandler, Rick Warren, Mark Driscoll, and others, at times, with this very belligerent presentation of church theology? How people should act, what their roles are in society, and the ways in which they should live out the religious life, often, comes in a very proselytizing form, sometimes abusive.

Burge: People are drawn towards certainty and surety and confidence. They want to be told what to believe. They want to be told how to act and why that’s important. They want that. Not everybody, but a lot of people are drawn to structure, they’re drawn to order. They’re drawn to clear guidelines of what the community wants and what it demands and what it requires of you. They don’t want to have to work things out themselves. They are sort of want to be told what to believe. And actually, that’s precisely what makes it easy to hold a group together because you’re all on the same page theologically. Not to excite over things like, “Well, we’ve got a woman here who wants to preach. What do we do? No, we’re not going to let her preach.” Like, that’s great from a sociological standpoint, a group dynamic standpoint, because you don’t have debates over every little thing.

So, there’s an old John Wesley quote, who is the founder of Methodism. He said, ‘If you set yourself up on fire, people will come to watch you burn.’ And I think that’s a lot of it. These people like these pastors who are so sure of themselves. It becomes viral. You hear Mark Driscoll yelling at young men to grow up, stop being kids, take care of your wife, be a man. You’re like, “Yes, let’s do that.” Those are the kind of services that go viral and grow your audience bigger. So, I think it is all tied up in the sensationalism of the whole thing. Mark Driscoll would preach for an hour every Sunday like that. It would go on forever. And people just like that. They like that he was bold and courageous and said what he thought. And he said some stuff that was outside the mainstream. It was like, “Jesus loves you, get saved.” It was like, “Men be men, and women be women, and be a good father.” The sort of masculinity project that a lot of people like because they felt like young men were not being as masculine, as responsible as they could be. And they sort of aspired to be what Mark Driscoll was. Come to find out the dude was like abusive to his staff and really was not a great leader in a lot of ways, but that’s beyond the point for them because he helped them get to be in a better place.

Jacobsen: Do you think this explains some semi-secular, semi-religious phenomenon, including the clinical psychologist from the University of Toronto, the mythologically-oriented Christian-in-the-closet Jordan Peterson?

Burge: I don’t know. I don’t understand Jordan Peterson. I don’t get the of this appeal man. It’s crazy. As you were talking, I was thinking. There is this book that just came out called Jesus and John Wayne by a Christian from Calvin College, which is actually a pretty conservative Evangelical school in Grand Rapids, Michigan. She talks about Christianity’s very odd relationship with masculinity. In the 2000s, there was a book called Wild At Heart by John Eldridge, which basically argues men want to be like heroes. They want to go on conquest and they want adventures and all this kind of stuff. And those women want to be rescued, like this very like gender roles thing that happened. Evangelicalism has always been tied up with masculinity. Even American conservative politics has been tied up with same thing too, “We don’t apologize. And I don’t care about your feelings, and I don’t care what you think.” That kind of confidence is what a lot of people like, especially on the conservative side, theologically, and politically too. They don’t want to have like, “Well, let’s talk about it. Let’s discuss viewpoints, and we are going to be right.” They don’t want that.

They want to be told what’s right. And they want to say, “You know what, Donald Trump is the greatest thing ever for us because he says the quiet part out loud.” They’ll say, “Listen, you’re somewhat forgetful for black and brown people. We don’t like that. You re-elect me. We’ll get them right out of there.” It’s more like, “Democrats are going to destroy Christianity.”  He said that as point one. They like that. They want that straight talk because that’s how they talk. I don’t like locker room talk. We’ll get a little rough over there because we’re just getting more racially diverse. So, that kind of talk works from the pulpit. It also works from the political lectern because people want to be. They want to have you say what they say just directly and straightly without any of the nuance of political correctness. And that’s makes pastors successful and the politicians successful too.

Jacobsen: Now to the original tweet from Eric Metaxas, “Jesus was white.” Now, if I pose to you a geography of two thousand years ago or so in the Middle East, or in a heat and blistering sun, of a Jewish person who is described as having skin of bronze and hair of sheep’s wool, would you describe this person as blond haired, blue eyed and white?

Burge: No, I don’t know how you came up with a Norwegian fella, but like there he is. And that’s tied up the whole idea of how we create God in our own image. We create Jesus in our own image. And if you just have a cursory understanding of geography and ethnicity and how all these things play together with demography, Jesus wasn’t white. Even if he was white, he sure as hell wasn’t white like Americans are white. He was dark skinned. There’s no way in the world he wasn’t dark skinned either, like olive covered, Middle Eastern. There’s just no way. But it is posturing. It is all posturing because, listen: Jesus is white because American Christianity is white. That’s the way it is. And so, what you’re really getting is a conflation between theological identity and political identity and racial identity, the American Republican Party is the party of white Christians. The American Republican Party is the party of white Christianity and the Democratic Party is the party of everybody else. That means Christians of color, but it also means atheists, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, everybody else. There’s sort of a catch-all.

And in order for the Republican Party to stay what it is, it has to keep mustering the troops in and the discussion about Jesus being white is like bread and butter for the Republican Party because they are the party of white Christianity. But you have to keep in mind that, Jesus was white. Systemic racism does exist. Because that’s the world you live in, because ‘white people don’t do anything wrong.’ So, all those things are tied together: conservative theology, conservative politics, but also whiteness is intimately tied to American Christianity. A great book called The Cross and the Lynching Tree, by James H. Cone really tied all this stuff together, talking about how American Christianity has been intimately tied up with slavery, racism and all the things that go with that since the very beginning. And you can almost not pull one thing for another. They are intertwined in such a way that you can’t extract one from the other to our own detriment.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Professor Burge.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Professor Burge 12: Local Versus National-International

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/06/06

Professor Ryan Burge‘s website states: “I am an Assistant Professor of Political Science as well as the Graduate Coordinator at Eastern Illinois University. I teach in a variety of areas, including American institutions, political behavior, and research methods. My research focuses largely on the intersection between religiosity and political behavior (especially in the American context). Previously, I have completed an appointment as a post doctoral research fellow at the Paul Simon Public Policy Institute in Carbondale, Illinois. While there I was an adviser on issues of survey methodology and polling, as well as providing data collection and analysis.

I have published over a dozen articles in a number of well regarded peer reviewed journals including Politics & Religion, the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, the Review of Religious Research, the Journal of Religious Leadership, RepresentationPoliticsGroupsand Identities, the Journal of Communication and Religion, the Journal of Religion, Media and Digital Culture and the Social Science Computer Review. 

In addition, my research has been covered in a variety of media outlets including The New York Times, The Washington Post, CNN, NBC, Vox, 538, BuzzFeed News, Al-Jazeera, Christianity Today, Religion News Service, The Daily Mail, Deseret News, World Magazine, Relevant, and C-SPAN. I am the co-founder and frequent contributor to Religion in Public, a forum for scholars of religion and politics to make their work accessible to a more general audience.

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about the national-international versus the local focus of various Christian denominations.

*Interview conducted on August 4, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, Eric Metaxas seems like a nice and reasonable guy, stated, “Jesus was white. Did he have ‘white privilege,’ even though he was entirely without sin? Is the United Methodist Church covering that? I think it could be important.” So, you were mentioning that conservatives like to beat up on their perception of liberal mainline denominations.

Burge: Yes.

Jacobsen: What’s the reality there?

Burge: Yes, the reality is the mainline Protestant churches have always been right in the center. By going back to 1972, they got data. 46 years of data and not a single year, have they moved to the left of Independent? Never. Now it seems like they are drifting more towards the left side. They still have not crossed the midpoint. Yet, they are not. I wrote this post one time. I think American Christianity actually balanced American conservative denominations and liberal denominations, but that’s not true. It’s factually untrue. And there’s no way you can get there in the data. There’s just no way because, if you think about it, the largest denomination in America today, established denomination, is the Southern Baptist Convention. And they are like 75% Republicans.

Jacobsen: They have been declining for a decade too.  

Burge: Yes, correct. Actually, I was just doing work on that today, looking at their numbers over time, checking their future and things like that. But yes, they were 10% of the population in 1988 and now 5% of population in 2018. So, they are half the size. But here’s the thing. Evangelicalism as a whole is basically a point or two smaller today than it was 20 years ago. So, Evangelicals for the whole have not declined that much because this nondenominational Evangelical Christianity has exploded in size. In 1998, five percent of Americans were non-denominational Evangelicals. It is 11% today. So, for 20 years, they’ve doubled in size. And indeed, nondenominational churches now are larger than the SBC ever was. And guess what? They are just as Republican as the SBC was. They are actually in some ways more conservative than the SBC ever was. So, the SBC has basically declined, but they’ve been replaced by nondenominational Evangelical Christianity, which is just as conservative now and growing larger than the SBC never was. So, your counterbalance is the United Methodists. United Methodists are majority Republicans, actually trending more Republican over time.

The Episcopal Church, that’s a liberal church. I’ll buy it. But only 40% of people there are Republicans today. So, there’s no counterbalance. There’s no large denomination in America today that is the size of the SBC and is as one sided to the left as the SBC is to the right. It just doesn’t exist. And so, there’s no balance there. So, the mainline, the liberal. I call it the liberal mainline. I’m like, what are you talking about? Find it for me. I don’t see in the data, because what they do is they look at it like what seminary presidents say, what the national leaders say, and what the people like this say. The average person filling the pews at the center in this church. They don’t buy that stuff. So, there is no large, coherent left leaning group, a Christian group in America today. It does not exist. And I don’t think people understand that.

Jacobsen: Now, the managing editor of Canadian Atheist, has some hesitations and critiques of the term “the Nones” for a variety of reasons[1],[2],[3]. I won’t cover that. However, I want to touch more on what was mentioned, which is the term “non-denominational.” What is meant by it? Because I was reading between the lines in conversations with people who have highly individualized meanings.

Burge: Non-denominational?

Jacobsen: Yes. What is meant by that?

Burge: It just means you’re Protestant, but you don’t align with an established denomination like down here, e.g., Lutheran, Episcopalian or whatever else. But you know what’s funny? Theologically, they’re basically Southern Baptists. We have a book myself. When I call others, we have a good book out now, about non-denominational Christianity. There’s very little difference between a born again non-denominational and a born-again Southern Baptist. They are exactly the same on issues of the Devil and the Bible and gay marriage and abortion and everything else. So, they’re just Evangelicals who don’t like the label Baptist, to be completely honest with you. Very few of them I would even classify as moderate because they’re not moderate. They’re far from the right of center and they look like full Baptists in terms of economics, demography, political ideology and all that stuff.

Jacobsen: It sounds like some pastors and preachers who tapped into some of the anti-religious sentiment in the United States that has grown over time when they’ll say, “That’s not Christianity. That’s religion.” And they use this kind of avoidance language in order to prop up the same ideological or the same theological and sociological commitments while distancing themselves from that which has been critiqued. Although, it is the same thing that has been critiqued. It simply goes by a different name in so far as they’re proposing it.

Burge: Yes. So, there’s something else that goes on there that we’re really into this question of authority in religion: Who do we listen to? Who do we follow? And the reality is that what we found is that most Americans are very reluctant to follow the authority of some national headquarters of your denomination that you’ve never seen before, and you don’t know those people. So, that kind of authority is very weak. Most Americans don’t like that, but they are very willing to accept the authority of their local pastor to tell them what to do. So, if I know the guy and I see the guy and I believe the guy because I see him all the time, I have to follow that guy to hell because that’s where he wants me to go. But if it is some nameless, faceless bureaucrat in some national office thousands of miles away, I don’t want my money to go there because they’re going to waste my money. Right? So, it is not that the non-denominational Protestants are anti-authority. They just like their authority to be right there in their face every day. And they like the fact that no one tells him what to do except the person they see every Sunday. The United Methodist Church in America. Your pastor is decided by the denomination, and they will move your pastor every couple of years without your input, usually at all.

A lot of Americans hate that idea. They want their pastor. They want to choose their pastor, choosing to come, choosing to leave. You know that kind of stuff. So, it is authority. It is just local, local authority. Our thesis is the idea that these known denominations; they have a small radius of concern. They really only care about their church family and then maybe their larger community, but their local community, not state interest or national interest or, God forbid, international interest. They just care about what’s going on in their little bubble. And they want that to devote all their time to that bubble. And actually, we found that they are not doing other political stuff because they spend so much time with church stuff. They’re not as political, let’s say, as an active Southern Baptist because they’re really stuck in this bubble. A lot of non-denominational churches have a very local community focus. And I think that’s a real distinction between them. Non-denominational and Southern Baptist is where the focus of that, local versus national-international.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Professor Burge.

Footnotes

[1] “Ask Mark 1 — Somethin’ About Nothin’: The Nones Ain’t Nothin’” (Hyperlink)

[2] “Ask Mark 2 — Squeezing More Some Things from Nothings” (Hyperlink)

[3] “Ask Mark 3— Peeves, to Nones, and Back Again: A Tale of Marko Gibbons” (Hyperlink)

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Professor Burge 11: Sentiments, Prejudices, and Attitudes Over Time

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/06/04

Professor Ryan Burge‘s website states: “I am an Assistant Professor of Political Science as well as the Graduate Coordinator at Eastern Illinois University. I teach in a variety of areas, including American institutions, political behavior, and research methods. My research focuses largely on the intersection between religiosity and political behavior (especially in the American context). Previously, I have completed an appointment as a post doctoral research fellow at the Paul Simon Public Policy Institute in Carbondale, Illinois. While there I was an adviser on issues of survey methodology and polling, as well as providing data collection and analysis.

I have published over a dozen articles in a number of well regarded peer reviewed journals including Politics & Religion, the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, the Review of Religious Research, the Journal of Religious Leadership, RepresentationPoliticsGroupsand Identities, the Journal of Communication and Religion, the Journal of Religion, Media and Digital Culture and the Social Science Computer Review. 

In addition, my research has been covered in a variety of media outlets including The New York Times, The Washington Post, CNN, NBC, Vox, 538, BuzzFeed News, Al-Jazeera, Christianity Today, Religion News Service, The Daily Mail, Deseret News, World Magazine, Relevant, and C-SPAN. I am the co-founder and frequent contributor to Religion in Public, a forum for scholars of religion and politics to make their work accessible to a more general audience.

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about sentiments and attitudes in the United States over time, and the nature of the ubiquitous hatred of atheists in the United States – a hate that unifies all.

*Interview conducted on August 4, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Now, you did a short clip. If America was 200 people, the biggest category is Protestants at 78 people, 36 Catholics, 11 atheists, 11 agnostics, etc. If we look at some of the other data around forms of bigotry and hate, the three that came to mind when I looked at the data from Canadian statistics, StatsCan. There was a rise in what has been termed Islamophobia or anti-Muslim sentiment, anti-Semitism, as well as anti-Catholic prejudice. Those are the three big ones. What is it? What are the rises and falls of this in America? Which is to say, who is experiencing things better in the recent history of the United States? Which ones are experiencing things worse in terms of just the way those trend lines are going?

Professor Ryan Burge: Yes, so, I think anti-Catholic sentiment especially in America, used to be much higher, 30 or 40 years ago than it is today. And there’s a bunch of reasons for that. There’s a lot of anti-Catholic sentiment in America going back to immigration. Let’s say even one hundred years ago in New York, Jews are not just the ones experiencing prejudice and discrimination. Italians and Irish people came to America, and they were Catholic. And America was largely across the country at the time. So, it was like, “Wait, wait, wait, if you’re going to come to America, you need to assimilate to our religion. And we are Protestant. So, you need to be Protestant.” So the Catholic priest was actually tied up into an immigrant piece where it wasn’t they are necessarily against Catholics. They were anti-other and just all the others were Catholic. Now, I think in a lot of places in America that has sort of waned dramatically, especially post Vatican II.

So here’s what I think happened in America. For a long time, Protestants had an enemy and that was Catholics. They were the outsider. They were the different one. But then in the last 20 or 25 years or so, the ‘other’ becomes Islam; and now, Protestants and Catholics look at each other and go, “Wait, we’re a lot closer than we thought we were. Islam is the enemy.” So, now, it is like, “Okay, we’re on one team now and the ‘other’ now is not Catholics. The other now is Muslims. So, there’s a lot, even like I said, in Vatican II as well, the Catholic Church, basically, said, “The Protestants are not the enemy. We are going to get to heaven, just like Catholics will.” So, there was an acceptance there, both sides that “you’re okay, we’re okay,” but somebody needs to go down. Even though, there are a lot of Protestants who do not like the Pope and are anti-Catholic in theological orientation. Sociologically, they still see Catholics as sort of cousins, distant cousins, that are still a part of our team and the enemy more than is Muslim.

So, we’ve seen a decline in anti-Catholic sentiment, but a rise in anti-Muslim sentiment. But I think that’s actually waning in America over the last couple of years because 9/11 has sort of faded into the background and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have also faded into the background. And I think it is still there, but it doesn’t have that fever pitch that it did – let’s say 10 years ago. We’re still fighting in both places. And 9/11 isn’t very fresh. So, I think it is waning as well. The group Americans don’t like the most actually is atheists, even Democrats. People are amazed by that. But it is Democrats. I have a poll somewhere, where I say, “Why don’t more Americans like atheists?” And honestly, it is: Democrats don’t like atheists either. It is not just like a faith versus no faith thing. It is just not a very palatable need to be an American today.

So, if I looked at the thermometer score, which is a score from zero to one hundred, 100 meaning like very warm, 0 being very cold, 50 meaning not hot or cold. Atheist’s score among Evangelicals below 30. For Catholics, they score 42 for Democratic Catholics and 33 for Republican Catholics. But here’s what’s even more fascinating among the religiously unaffiliated atheist score, a 54 among Democrat’s Nones. A 45 among Republican Nones. So, there’s not even a warm feeling there among Nones towards atheists. So, they are a very disliked groups.

Jacobsen: What is the source or set of sources for this ‘not liking them’?

Burge: Why don’t they like atheists?

Jacobsen: Yes, I mean the general statement there. Why don’t Americans like atheists? Why are they the other?

Burge: Because America is like inherently a Christian country. Okay, so, there’s this thing called civic religion in America. And we’ve got a long history in American social science. If the idea that the flag is sacred, like Arlington Cemetery is a place of reverence, going to the Lincoln Memorial and the Washington Monument and walking around Washington, D.C. is walking in a sacred space, like a mosque, a religious site, then that American national identity is deeply intertwined with American religious identity and that the default in America is: You are a Christian. That’ is to say, every president we’ve had, at least as far back as we can tell, has aligned themselves with American Christianity. And I think that is just how we see ourselves, even like we said even amongst the Nones, they still kind of defer to an idea that Christianity is still the default in America, right or wrong.

So, I think a lot of it is tied up in this idea of civic religion. like we say, “God bless America,” or, “So help me God.” And we swear on Bible. People swear on Bible; even though, they don’t believe the Bible, because it is just a thing that we do. Because we believe in it so much. And atheists just don’t. They reject all that stuff. So, that’s a tough pill to swallow. They might not be devoutly Christian themselves, “But I don’t hate Christianity.”

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Professor Burge.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Professor Burge 10: Academia and Religion

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/06/03

Professor Ryan Burge‘s website states: “I am an Assistant Professor of Political Science as well as the Graduate Coordinator at Eastern Illinois University. I teach in a variety of areas, including American institutions, political behavior, and research methods. My research focuses largely on the intersection between religiosity and political behavior (especially in the American context). Previously, I have completed an appointment as a post doctoral research fellow at the Paul Simon Public Policy Institute in Carbondale, Illinois. While there I was an adviser on issues of survey methodology and polling, as well as providing data collection and analysis.

I have published over a dozen articles in a number of well regarded peer reviewed journals including Politics & Religion, the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, the Review of Religious Research, the Journal of Religious Leadership, RepresentationPoliticsGroupsand Identities, the Journal of Communication and Religion, the Journal of Religion, Media and Digital Culture and the Social Science Computer Review. 

In addition, my research has been covered in a variety of media outlets including The New York Times, The Washington Post, CNN, NBC, Vox, 538, BuzzFeed News, Al-Jazeera, Christianity Today, Religion News Service, The Daily Mail, Deseret News, World Magazine, Relevant, and C-SPAN. I am the co-founder and frequent contributor to Religion in Public, a forum for scholars of religion and politics to make their work accessible to a more general audience.

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about religion and Academia, and research into religion.

*Interview conducted on August 4, 2020.*

Scott Jacobsen: So there are private universities in Canada, there are private university in United States. Often, they are going to be of a particular religious denomination. Given the demographics of North America, they are most likely to harbor a status, denominational status, as some form of Christian. So, there’s another question there, though. It has to do with academic freedom. What is the intersection there between academic freedom and religious status for university? Is there a conflict there in general in the United States of America?

Professor Ryan Burge: I would say that most Christian schools are of two minds about academic freedom, especially the administration, because they realize that they want to get the best faculty they want to get. But at the same time, they realize that to keep the donor base happy a lot of these schools, are attached to national denominations that are pretty wealthy, a lot of them. So you have to sort of hold the line of what denomination you want. And that means oftentimes saying these lifestyle statements or covenant statements about how you’re going to behave not just on campus, but also off campus. And, I’ve heard even a couple of these schools. I mean, early in my career when I didn’t really know where I was going to end up, I was just sort of casting a wide net. I interviewed at several schools. Many of them would be the first by Canadian audience, which would seem to be very conservative. Definitely, conservative Evangelical, not like Bob Jones or Liberty or places like that, but definitely like one step away from that.

And the conversation I had about tenure was an interesting one because, I mean, they would say things like, “Okay, we do have tenure here, but it can be revoked. It has never happened or it is very unlikely to happen….” They use language like that, that you would have to do something that clearly was a violation of the covenant, the doctrine and theology of our university. But, there are many examples of times when universities have actually revoked the tenure of tenured professors. Wheaton College opened in Chicago, which a lot of people called the Evangelical Harvard and actually a lot of very prominent Evangelicals in America went to Wheaton College. They make you sign a lifestyle statement that also said that homosexuality is incompatible with the gospel and things like that. But one of their political science professors, interestingly enough, one year on Facebook said that Christians and Muslims worship the same God and believe in the same God. And that caused quite an uproar. And eventually, she left Wheaton. It is one of those things where, “I didn’t say that she got fired. They got her to say that she quit.” They separated it. That’s the language they would use, and she got some kind of settlement that was never disclosed.

So, there are instances where you really don’t have as much freedom. It was actually, I think, super interesting because it is like way under covered by the media. For a long time, American religion to politics, especially people who are Evangelicals in America. The vast majority of those scholars were Evangelicals themselves, teaching at Evangelical institutions. So I think there was some pressure there, maybe just internally or institutionally that said, “Don’t try to put Evangelicals in too bad of a light for a bunch of reasons.” So, I think for a long time, American research on Evangelical political behavior and policy was sort of stunted. It was sort of held back because there wasn’t a diversity of opinions, beliefs and backgrounds among those studying Evangelicals. I will say today that is much better. There are Evangelicals who are studying Evangelicals, but there are atheists, studying Evangelicals. There are people of other faith groups. It is really the full spectrum.

Now, I think Evangelicals get a fairer reading, meaning a more honest reading now today than they got 20 years ago because the diversity of scholarship around Evangelical beliefs and in their voting behavior. So I think it is better now, but for a long time it was very one sided because of the makeup of academia.

Jacobsen: And for clarity of the audience, you did, in a prior portion of life, identify as Evangelical Christian.

Burge: I grew up Evangelical. I do not identify as Evangelical any longer. I am clearly mainline Protestant Christian, which is a tradition that has United Methodist and American Baptist; which is what I am, the Presbyterian Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, the Episcopalians, the Anglicans, and places like that. So our church, we allow women to preach. We allow them to all sorts of leadership positions. Many of the churches in our denomination do welcome and affirm LGBT lifestyle. We are socially progressive. Our church gave a pension to Coretta Scott King, Martin Luther King Jr.’s widow, after he was assassinated. You really don’t have to do that. They did that because of racial justice work for them. So we are the more moderate flavor of American Christianity. Sort of the polite Christianity, that a lot of people grew up with. It doesn’t seem to exist anymore in a lot of places. I did grow up Evangelical, but I don’t identify as Evangelical any longer.

Jacobsen: What denominations of Christianity have an explicit orientation towards political involvement as in wanting that conflation of political life and religious life?

Burge: That’s a good one. I don’t think there was. I thought the black church. Okay, so, the African Methodist Episcopal Church in America, a lot of black Pentecostals are very politically active, and unabashedly so. There are all kinds of historical reasons for that, because they grew up at a time and their churches were formed at a time when black politicians could not get an audience in a white church or white community center or white group at all. So, the black church became sort of their safe haven. So that’s why they were so politically active. They really had no other choice. They couldn’t be politically active in any other way because they had no access to institutions like white people did. So, the black church, for sure. And there are pockets of American Evangelical denominations that are politically active. But by and large, most churches, speaking broadly at the aggregate level, are very resistant to being overtly political. I mean, there’s always examples that we can point to, like Robert Jeffress, the first church of Dallas, Texas, who was incredibly political and really become a Trump supporter on every issue it.

Those guys are very rare, though. The average Baptist, Southern Baptist, even the Southern Baptist preachers, are not overtly political from the pulpit because they realize that the vast majority of the American public does not want pastors and denominations to be overtly political. And so that kind of a certain denomination, there are certain churches in denominations or pastors in denominations who are our political, but they are definitely not the norm. They are the outlier cases where they just get focused on a lot in the media.

Jacobsen: And what ones are the most hesitant? We can recall certain cases where individuals like Billy Graham were burned in their political dealings. So, there was a very prominent, if not the most prominent, example of an individual who was clearly a very religious man, a Christian religious man, who took a step back in a number of ways due to being burned around Nixon.

Burge: Yes. I would say that denominations that are the least likely to speak about politics are the ones that are most divided politically. For instance, the United Methodist Church in America is very divided politically. So the United Methodist Church is the largest mainline denomination in America. They’re sort of the counterpart to the Southern Baptists. But United Methodist are like 50 to 55 percent Republican and 40 percent Democrats or so. So that’s a pretty good mix for a church. And so that denomination has tried its best to try to navigate these differences in opinion by trying to be as noncommittal as possible. So what you’ve seen, though, this is sort of the downside of trying to be everything to everybody in the last year. They’ve decided they’re going to split. The conservatives are going to form a new denomination where they’re not going to affirm the LGBT lifestyle and the United Baptist Church is going to stay to what it is and be open and affirming to LGBT people. So, there is a huge downside to being noncommittal like that because it does fester discontent and division just at the lower levels.

And so, I think churches like that; churches that are more divided; you’re going to see less commitment; you’re going to see less overt politics. Churches that are unified, 80 percent Republicans, 80 percent Democrats. You’re going to see a lot more overt politicking. The pastors know while they’re talking about politics. They’re just goosing their base. They’re not making anybody mad and they’re not going to lose the support because of that. So that’s really what pastors are thinking about the most as well, to keep my job safe and to do that.

Jacobsen: Now you use the term “lifestyle” or the “LGBT lifestyle.” This has a lot of meanings, even though it comes in the same term or phrase. What are the different interpretations of this in general?

Burge: Yes, so, there’s a clear delineation in Evangelical thinking about homosexuality. Okay, you don’t say that one standard is created equal to the other standard. No one said, “It is worse than another.” But when they talk about homosexuality, there are homosexual thoughts. Then there are homosexual actions. And I think a lot of Evangelicals have come down on the side that you might have. You only have homosexual proclivities. You might be attracted to someone of your own gender, for instance. But if you don’t act on that, you live a celibate lifestyle, then you aren’t sitting because you’re not acting on that. However, what’s interesting about that, though, is Evangelicals also at the same time will say that if you hold lustful thoughts for someone who is not your partner, then you have sinned.

So this is this really weird gray area where they don’t know what to do with homosexuality? A lot of Evangelicals think that homosexuality is just a simple thought pattern, like alcoholism or something like that. Like you can work your way through it, that your brain has basically been kind of deluded with sin. And that’s what makes you attractive to someone of the same sex as you. And if you turn yourself over to Jesus, then those thoughts will go away; and you’ll be returned back to right thinking, which is, heterosexual attraction, heterosexual activity. So the Evangelicals have a lot of them come down and say, “If you do have homosexual thoughts, or if you feel like that’s the lifestyle you want to live, if you don’t act on that, then you can still be a member of one of those churches because you’ve never done anything that’s sinful.” It is a weird way to get around the issue, but that’s where a lot of Evangelicals come down now.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Professor Burge.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Jon 25: Hope for the Best, Expect the Worst

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/06/03

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New YorkHere we talk about Election Day 2020.

*Interview conducted on October 26, 2020.*

Scott Jacobsen: Off tape, you said something. Was it an older Yiddish phrase. Okay, Jon, why did we come to you stating that particular quote?

Engel: Well, obviously, we’re talking about the election a week from tomorrow. And that’s Election Day already, this election is different than past elections in the United States because so many people are voting early. In fact, my plan: I have my ballot. I plan on, depending on the weather, one day this week. But Election Day is still Election Day and there’s still a lot of people who are going to vote on Election Day. And, the tradition is to stay up, watching TV to see who won. Although, again, with all the absentee ballots and voting by mail that’s going on with the chances; we don’t really know on election night. But why “hope for the best and expect the worst”? It’s because the “hope for the best part “comes from, obviously, just generally speaking, hoping for the best. But also there is reason from an objective viewpoint to feel pretty decent that Biden’s going to win. The polls are showing pretty well the early voting has been tilting democratic. There are a lot of constituencies like young people and African-Americans who seem to be voting in very large numbers, who tend to vote for Democrats.

So, that’s the hope for the best. And if I was being objective about it, there are a lot of people like me in this country who were absolutely traumatized four years ago. And I just couldn’t imagine that this election is going to go for Donald. I just couldn’t. And when I was watching the returns that night, when it looked like, “Yes, it looks like Trump could win.” I was floored when it looked like he was going to win. The horror of this was incredible. And I know some fellows.

In fact, yesterday, I was doing a Zoom presentation for a group in New Jersey. There were people telling me, “I’ve already ot it in my mind that Trump is going to win again.” And I was like, “Why?” And they were like, because if I don’t sort of prepare myself for this; I don’t know how I’m going to be able to take it. I never felt this way, again. Maybe, it’s different. I, recently, lived through a lot of elections. I’m 62 years old. My candidates have lost, which has happened a fair amount of the time. I felt terrible. I was upset. But I don’t think it would be anything like this. It was bad enough the first time for a couple of reasons. Number one, the idea that so many American people could say, “Yes, I like this. This looks good to me. People dying left, right and center of Covid,” but he wasn’t saying, “I wish we’d stop thinking about it.” That’s a fear in and of itself.

But there’s really more to it than that. It’s also that if he gets another term, when he’s like a couple of days after Election Day in 2016. I heard that the public and political commentator Bill Maher saying: From now on, the next four years, he says this is more talking about himself. He’s a fierce critic of Trump. He said, ‘I’m going to have to keep looking behind me because this guy lives for revenge.’ And he’s right. If Trump doesn’t have to think about more and more, ever running again, he will be unleashed to. And first thing he will do is go where every person he perceives as an enemy. He will fire William Barr. Who, believe it or not, he doesn’t think of the love of that sycophant as attorney general and may replace him with, God knows, Rudy Giuliani or somebody.

And the next thing we’re going to see is Barack Obama being perp walked in handcuffs into the FBI and this could really happen. So the stakes couldn’t possibly feel any higher at all. And so, I’m hoping for the best and even expect the worst part; I don’t know if I can even bring myself to do… Oh, by the way, do you have, like, a spare bedroom?

Jacobsen: Yes.

John: I’m just asking.

Jacobsen: Yes…

John: Because I may get the hell out of here, if Canada would take me.

Jacobsen: Bring your winter coat.

John: If Trump gets re-elected, I think, if he manages to hold on power, I’m not so certain about staying here. His continuing as president would be a matter of being re-elected or rather just a matter of finding a way to nullify the will of the people and to stay in office.

Jacobsen: Do you think Dave Chappelle is right, in his interview with David Letterman, where he states racism should be seen as a national security issue? The fact of reducing hate and tensions in the country as a matter of national security because of the threat to the nation-state called the United States. Is this something crucial to consider when walking to the voting booth?

John: Oh, yes, I think so, because people take a narrow view, in my opinion, of national security, of the phrase “national security.” What is the biggest national security threat facing the United States today? Right now, it’s climate change. And interestingly enough, who will tell you that? The Pentagon, the Department of Defense, the Joint Chiefs of Staff or the top Army generals, will tell you that the biggest security threat to the United States today is climate change. So I guess it is a threat. Think about this. The American Armed Forces is one of the most integrated institutions in our country. We have a large proportion of our armed forces that are African-American or Hispanic or Asian. And we have people in this country who are not citizens, who are serving, not in the United States, but our residents in the United States who are serving in our armed forces.

So something like racism, is that a threat to our security? You bet it is, and so is climate change. So people think that our national security is just about having a bigger army. And the truth of the matter is our national security pivots on a lot of other issues that are extremely important, not just the size of our army or the power of our army, as Bill Clinton used to say. But the point isn’t just the example of our power. But the power of our example and there are so many things that are intrinsic. People don’t realize: How do you get a big army as you want? But we also need alliances. We also need allies. And so, diplomacy is part of national security. There are so many things that are essential to us that are part of our national security that people aren’t necessarily looking at, that I think, really are threats existential threats to this country.

Jacobsen: Do you think Biden truly provides a solution to the problems created by Trump or the persistent long term issues in the United States, or do you think Biden provides more of a far better alternative to current President Trump further into four years? In the sense, it’s not an ideal situation. It’s more of a settling for a candidate because the alternative is grotesquely abhorrent to secularism, to human rights, and to science standards and respectability of the United States on the international stage.

John: That’s kind of a yes, and no. Sometimes, when I had discussions with friends who are progressive, they’re worried that Biden isn’t progressive enough and will institute systemic change. I understand where they’re coming from. But my analogy is: the house is on fire. We can talk about how we’re going to redecorate it after we put the fire out. So, yes, I think for a lot of people, part of it is just we have to stop the bleeding. We have to stop the destruction of our country and our democracy. And so I think that does appeal to a lot of people with regard to Biden, because he’s a normal person which would be nice. But also he’s obviously a decent human being.

Now, I think the Democratic Party has pushed somewhat to the left. And so, I think he will be more open. He’s talking about a trillion-dollar environmental policy or environmental injection into the country in order to fight climate change. I think that there will be some change. And I think what’s really needed in this country is systemic change. Republicans at this point are not even bothering with democracy. In fact, I heard Senator Mike Lee of Utah, Republican of Utah, said the other day, “Oh, we’re a constitutional republic. Democracy really doesn’t matter, which is enough.” I went to grade school in the United States of America and here in the United States Senate to say, “That is enough,” makes me fall off my seat. Biden will help to make those really systemic changes.

But at first, on his own, he barely can do anything. If Democrats don’t take the Senate, get the House and win the presidency, he really won’t be able to do much of anything. Except, again, stop the bleeding, which right now looks like something that’s at least somewhat of a positive outcome. But the answer, of course, to that is, I’m not sure, but I’m not too worried about him being too centrist in the middle of the road. I know he’s talking about reaching across the aisle. And still, what he’s talking about there, there are a lot of people in this country who just want to say, “Oh, can’t everybody get along sort of thing.” But I hope he realizes that the Republican Party, whatever’s left of it. If he does win, it is not going to be helping; it’s not going to be willing to work with him. And that’s what happened with Obama a little bit because, he watered down the Affordable Care Act in and of itself. Thinking, “All this will help me get some Republican votes because I’ll be more along the lines of what they want.” And in the end, they didn’t. None of them voted for it, anyway.

So, I think I’m cautiously optimistic that some change can be done. But I’m realistic to know that if the obstacles to change this country needs today are more a matter of the system rather than a matter of the individual. Joe Biden, he tends to be somewhat more centrist, is going to be the kind of obstacle to making the sort of changes that this country really needs in its foundation as much as just the arcane rules that much of what we still have in this country. So, like the Electoral College, this is getting too crazy. You get most votes, but you don’t win. But changing that will require changing the Constitution, which will mean that some voters in some states would have to say, “Yes, I’d rather have democracy than have sort of a system tilted in my favor.”

So I think that’s more of an issue than Biden himself. I don’t think Biden will be an obstacle to significant change. Especially since, he’s got his voter. I want to see these kinds of changes, and I think he will move along with that. But what he can accomplish, given the structure as it stands for me, is the bigger question.

Jacobsen: Jon, thanks so much for your time.

John: My pleasure, Scott. Take care now.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Dr. P.B. 3 – History and History-Making: Public Prayers & Land Acknowledgements

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/05/27

Dr. Teale Phelps Bondaroff has been a community organizer for more than 15 years. He has been active in Saanich municipal politics. He earned a PhD in Politics and International Studies from the University of Cambridge and two BAs from the University of Calgary in Political Science and International Relations, respectively. He is a Board Member of the Greater Victoria Placemaking Network. He owns and operates a research consultancy called The Idea Tree. He is a New Democrat, politically, and is the President of the Saanich-Gulf Islands NDP riding association. He founded OceansAsia as a marine conservation organization devoted to combating illegal fishing and wildlife crime. Here we talk about the recent research work of the British Columbia Humanist Association on prayers and land acknowledgements.

Scott Douglas: Jacobsen: What were some of the numbers regarding prayers and land acknowledgements?

Dr. Teale Phelps Bondaroff: I can run down those numbers. As I mentioned before, the BCHA Research Team was looking at 871 prayers delivered at the start of sessions of the BC Legislature from October 6, 2003, to February 12, 2019. We found that 42 of them included a single Indigenous word.

A vast majority of those were ‘sabaxsa’ which is a Gitxsan term, and it was used most often by the MLA’s from Stikine and Skeena, as well as ‘Hych’ka,’ which is a “thank you”-like term in SENĆOŦEN. These were almost all delivered BC NDP MLAs.

We had one sentence in an Indigenous language, one instance of several sentences, and then five entire prayers were delivered in Indigenous languages. It is noteworthy though that the prayers that were delivered completely in Indigenous languages were delivered by people who were guests of the BC legislature.

The way that the prayer works in the BC legislature is on a day-to-day basis, MLAs are invited to deliver a prayer of their own devising or a prayer off a sheet of sample prayers. But on days when a Speech from the Throne is being delivered, a member of the community is invited to deliver a prayer. On five occasions, these have been delivered by Indigenous leaders – three of these occasions were Chief Albert George, and the other two were prayers were delivered by Delphine Armstrong and Shirley Alphonse.

Overall, we found that about 5.6% of all prayers being in the legislation containing at least one word in an Indigenous language, and we did find that there’s been an increase over time. In the timeframe we studied, we noticed a gradual increase in Indigenous content, which is promising. Although, it’s still dismally low. And then the other aspect that we noticed was that there was a huge disparity between the use of indigenous content by political parties in the legislature.

Jacobsen: If you take the activism around equality in prayers and invocations, or not, if you take equality and human rights applications across the board, if you look at permissive tax exemptions in another case, or if you look at land acknowledgements as not merely symbolic to the Aboriginals throughout Canadian society, what is the hope for the impact with these? How will this develop in the 2020s?

Phelps Bondaroff: The research we’ve been doing on legislative prayer has already had an impact. We released the House of Prayers Report last year, and shortly thereafter members of the BC Legislature unanimously voted to amend their standing orders. So, daily routine business now begins with ‘prayers and reflections,’ whereas they previously began with prayers. This is a small terminological change, but it does have some impact.

We’re actually doing another study to look at whether changing the name of the standing order will actually impact the content. The reason we think it might be the case is because when you’re asked to deliver a prayer, even though you have the option of doing anything, e.g., you could read poetry, something from your favourite book, call for a moment of silence… But when you’re asked to deliver a prayer, you typically colour within the lines.

While we identified some totally secular statements – reading poetry, or songs, or thoughtful commentary that was not religious at all – but still the vast majority of MLAs still ended their prayers with the word ‘amen.’ Why? Because they felt constrained by the structure imposed upon them by being asked ‘to lead us in prayer’ by the Speaker.  

So our research has already had an impact. Our hope is with this supplementary report is that it provides information to members of the legislature, but also to members of the community who might want there to be a territorial acknowledgement at the beginning of sessions of the BC legislature.

One notable change that we’ve seen occurred on March 23rd, 2020: the deputy speaker of the House did start the session with a territorial acknowledgement – he started by acknowledging that the BC Legislature is founded on the traditional Indigenous territories. To our knowledge, that was the first time this has been done, or at least it was the first time we have seen this being done, and we’ve looked at the beginning of every session since 2003. We don’t know if that’s going to be an ongoing change, or if it was because the deputy speaker just wanted to recognize the importance of being on Indigenous territory that one time.

Moving forward, I think the goal behind this research is to produce information that brings to light hidden practices that otherwise would be invisible. So, for example, when we started looking into prayer for the House of Prayer study, one of the reason why we started doing this was every time we talked to someone about prayer in the legislature, they would say: “Oh no, it’s super diverse. Lots of different groups are represented. We had a Jewish prayer a little while ago, and there was a Sikh prayer or a Muslim prayer.” We didn’t have enough knowledge or data to see whether that was actually the case – it was anecdotal.

When we crunched the numbers, we found that “No, the prayers are disproportionately religious.” And when we could identify their religion, they were disproportionately Christian. And so this told us what the actual practice is.

Our goal in this supplementary report is to highlight what’s going on in the BC Legislature, with a hope that more information – better information – will help encourage change.

Jacobsen: Why a territorial knowledge in the first place?

Phelps Bondaroff: That’s a great question. Ultimately, it’s not for you or I to say, right? We think it’s an option that could be considered. A lot of places that have meetings and gatherings will start with a territorial acknowledgement. It can be an important part of reconciliation if done properly. So that’s one of the recommendations in the report, which is to have the Legislature work with Indigenous stakeholders to develop protocols around a potential territorial acknowledgement, if Indigenous people wanted one.

The reason that you do a territorial acknowledgement is to show recognition and respect for Indigenous peoples. It recognizes the past and the present, and it establishes a basis for respect and recognition. This is important if you’re going to develop some healthy reciprocal relationships with different communities, right? Acknowledging past harms is important for reconciliation to happen. And this can be an important part of reconciliation if done in a meaningful way.

Jacobsen: Dr. Bondaroff, thank you so much for your time.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Jon 24: Unions and Humanism on Labour Day

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/04/22

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New YorkHere we talk about labor rights and Secular Humanism.

*Interview conducted on September 7, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, there are some – I wouldn’t call them – peripheral issues. It’s just not-covered-as-much issues because other things take up the news cycle, especially in the last few years.

So, there are labor rights. What are some issues that, maybe, some New Yorkers have gotten involved in and some other secular groups might want to consider in regards to labor rights as a secular issue?

Jonathan Engel: Today’s Labor Day in the United States. It’s a good day to talk about this. But of course, not that much, the labor movement and the participation in labor unions in this country have gone way down in the last 50 years at the same time that income inequality and wealth inequality has gone way up.

And I don’t think that that’s any coincidence. And New York City is kind of a labor town. There are labor unions. In New York City, a higher percentage of workers are unionized than in other parts of the country. My wife is a member of a union, proud member of the United Federation of Teachers (UFT), which has done quite a bit of good for her. And quite a bit of good for her and for its members.

New York City schools were supposed to open on September 9th. In terms of when the kids come back teachers go back tomorrow, but the kids are supposed to come back on Wednesday. And what happened was representatives of the UFT went and inspected the schools and came back to the mayor and said, “No, these schools are simply not ready in the age of COVID to be receiving kids.”

There are too many schools that don’t have plans in place for what happens to kids who test positive. There are too many schools that don’t have proper equipment, proper cleaning equipment or proper personal protective equipment for teachers and other school personnel. And therefore, they go back.

So now the kids are due to come in on September 21st in order to get schools more time to get the classrooms ready for kids and teachers. And that wouldn’t have happened without the UFT. That wouldn’t have happened without the labor union, because the city was just going to say, “Okay, that’s it.”

“Teachers go?”

“Yes, that’s it. This is when we’re starting and that’s it.”

And it was up to the union, the city, the Department of Education, they weren’t going in and looking at every school and saying, “Well, are we really ready for this?” They were just like, “Okay, the mayor wants to open up. So, we’re opening up.”

And it was the labor unions that went in and said, “No.” They had the clamp. They had the power to say, “Listen, we’re not going if we don’t do something to better prepare the schools for the kids and for the teachers, in terms of COVID. So, we’re not going if you don’t do that.

Only the union was going to do that. Only the union was going to step in and say, “We’re not coming back unless better steps are taken to protect our members.” Nobody else was going to do that. And of course, individual teachers would not have any clout because what’s one teacher, right?

But when you have thousands of teachers, all belonging to the United Federation of Teachers saying, “We’re not going until you fix this,” then all of a sudden there’s power. All of a sudden, management has no choice, but to negotiate with labor in order to find a common ground; so that they can allow the schools to reopen again.

But protecting the teacher’s health and not just teachers, I think of teachers because my wife’s a teacher, but it’s also the kids themselves.

And of course, the families or everybody you’ve come in contact with; it’s teacher. It’s administrators. It’s everybody in the building, a school building, but it’s also everybody when they go home to everybody else – who they come in contact with.

And the only people who were going to protect them, was the labor union, the United Federation of Teachers. They are the ones who went in and looked at the situation to see if it was ready, determined it wasn’t.

And then went back to the city and said, “We’re going to strike. If we’re not going, we’re going to strike.” And that’s every teacher in the city, right? You can’t have a little here and a little there. They’ll replace you. Every teacher in the city, we’re going to strike. If we don’t come to some accommodation, that gives us more time to make sure the schools will be ready in a safe way. For teachers, again, it’s a UFT, but for really everybody in the school.

Jacobsen: What about the individual who identifies as secular in some manner but who disagrees on the idea of unions? Any thoughts about that?

Engel: There’s no question that the unions have done much to shoot themselves in the foot, between mob infiltration of some unions, embezzlements, that was rampant in some unions. Featherbedding, racism has been endemic in certain unions, especially the trade unions for years.

So, I can understand. I can understand that people sometimes have negative views of unions. Back from the movie On the Waterfront, the negative views of unions. I can understand that. But hey, if you want a movie, why don’t you go look at Norma Rae? Those are just taking slices of what has gone on; I can understand why some people have negative views of unions.

And I think that all those things are correctable: the embezzlement, the mob infiltration, the feather bedding, things like that are all correctable. But bottom line stays the same, which is that with corporate power so strong in the world and in the United States in particular, they are the only vehicle for power, for the average person, for the average guy, for the average man, woman worker.

The only protection they’re going to get is from the union, because management is not going to look out for them and government being so under the thumb of big business; they’re not going to look out for the average workers.

So, they certainly haven’t been doing so for the last, I don’t know how many years. And so, yes, I can understand some negative views of unions. If somebody else has a better idea of how workers can even the playing field with corporations, I’d like to hear it, but I don’t know of any.

Jacobsen: Jon, thank you for your time.

Engel: Okay, Scott, thank you so much. And one more thing I want to add, I think I’ve mentioned it to you before, but just to show you that government’s not taking care of union members. Representative Eric Canter, who was representative from Virginia, he was a high up guy in the Republican Party.

He had a pretty high title among congressional Republicans and about five years ago or so; he put out a tweet on Labour Day celebrating small business owners and all they do for the country. And it’s like, “Listen, Hey, yo buddy, this is not Management Day. It’s Labour Day.”

But that was the best that a government official could do on that particular Labour Day, which is to say how honoured management is as opposed to labor.

So, again, I think that the only people who are going to stand up for rights of workers right now, and if you care about humanism, if you care about each individual person as having worth and value, their rights are only going to really be protected by unions.

So, thank you, Scott, and have a good week.

Jacobsen: Thank you. You too.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Dr. P.B. 2 – Public Prayers: Inclusion, Exclusion, and Decolonization

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/05/26

Dr. Teale Phelps Bondaroff has been a community organizer for more than 15 years. He has been active in Saanich municipal politics. He earned a PhD in Politics and International Studies from the University of Cambridge and two BAs from the University of Calgary in Political Science and International Relations, respectively. He is a Board Member of the Greater Victoria Placemaking Network. He owns and operates a research consultancy called The Idea Tree. He is a New Democrat, politically, and is the President of the Saanich-Gulf Islands NDP riding association. He founded OceansAsia as a marine conservation organization devoted to combating illegal fishing and wildlife crime. Here we talk about the recent research work of the British Columbia Humanist Association on prayers and the secondary/supplementary report to the House of Prayers report.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, we got a big prayer project for the non-religious [Laughing]. That’s a weird way to put it. It’s a sub-report dealing with decolonization regarding prayers. What was the entire purpose of the secondary report?

Not to say it’s less important, but to say it’s a significant enough hunk to build off another major report from the BCHA. What was the other report?

Dr. Teale Phelps-Bondaroff: Yes, the BCHA is describing this as a supplementary report. It supplements our bigger study, House of Prayers, which was a comprehensive analysis of all the prayers in the BC Legislature from October 6, 2003, to February 12, 2019.

In total, that study looked at 873 prayers that were delivered in the BC Legislature. We did quantitative analysis of those looking for different features like religiosity and analyses around who said what and when, looking for trends overall.

It extends arguments as to why we should abolish legislative prayer. A lot of the report builds on the analysis, which, basically, found the prayer were not representative of the population of British Columbia. This supplementary report flows directly from the House of Prayers study, wherein, we noticed a tiny number of prayers contained Indigenous language and content. We wanted to do a separate report that explored Indigenous content in BC Legislature prayers, and explored and contextualize the issue in more detail.

We thought it was a significant enough issue worthy of highlighting in its own report, and that’s the background of ‘Decolonizing Legislative Prayers.’

Jacobsen: What is the historical context around colonization linked to religiosity and the rejection of Indigenous claims necessitating this form of human rights and justice reportage?

Phelps Bondaroff: So, we are in a time of truth and reconciliation, where we’re trying to address some of the historical wrongs of colonialism in Canada, and tied closely with that is religion. So, you look at, for example, the truth and reconciliation reports that came out from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, and they note that Christian teachings were fundamental aspect of residential schools, and that religion was used as a weapon in this overarching attempt to genocide Indigenous peoples. And so, a lot of times you can see religion and colonialism go hand-in-hand.

That’s one of the aspects that you see with legislative prayer. Likewise, we also have the historical exclusion of Indigenous people from the BC legislature. So, one of the aspects we highlight in the report is not the content and prayers, but also the participation of Indigenous people in the BC legislature.

A lot of folks may not know this, but up until 1949 Indigenous people were not allowed to vote in British Columbia elections, and even more worrisome was Indigenous peoples were not able to vote in federal elections until 1950, but many places didn’t receive ballot boxes until 1962!

So, you have an ongoing history of exclusion of Indigenous peoples, and that’s often reflected in low voter turnout. It is one of many reasons for Indigenous folks not to participate in electoral politics, which is a separate issues and debate.

In the BC Legislature, there was only one Indigenous MLA prior to 2005, from what we could find. This was Frank Arthur Calder. And since then, we’ve had an additional five individuals with Indigenous ancestry.

Jacobsen: What is decolonization?

Phelps Bondaroff: Decolonization does mean different things to different people, but, overall, it’s an attempt to repudiate concepts and practices that were used to justify European sovereignty over Indigenous peoples and lands. And to break down the structures that were involved in colonialism. It recognizes that colonialism was a harm – that it was a significant harm to cultures and peoples – and it tries to rectify the harm.

Jacobsen: What if individuals look at a report, analyze the contents, look at the larger context of decolonization, then take this in a theoretical frame of mind and simply say, “Who cares?”? In other words, why should people care from those who would be the strongest detractors from among those who are in it, see it as a form of reconciliation rather than a trivial signaling?

Phelps Bondaroff: That’s a good point. We will to back up a few steps before I answer that question. One of the things that motivated this report were some of the broader recommendations around prayer in the BC legislature. However, many of the other reasons why we thought it needed to be its own separate report is that territorial acknowledgements and prayers are two totally separate issues.

So, when we were submitting articles flowing from our House of Prayer study to several journals, we found that some of the comments we were receiving was that including a territorial acknowledgement in the BC Legislature was one of our recommendations, but that territorial acknowledgements were adjacent to the question of prayer because they could start a session BC legislature with a territorial acknowledgement and a prayer.

We had three recommendations in our original report: 1) abolish legislative prayer, 2) replace it with a minute of silence or quiet reflection, and 3) include a territorial acknowledgement. The territorial acknowledgment again is a separate question, so, we wanted to look at it separately.

Our chief recommendation was that if there was a desire amongst Indigenous people in British Columbia to have a territorial acknowledgement at the beginning of the sessions at the BC legislature, that any protocols and procedures around the acknowledgement be established working with Indigenous communities and stakeholders. It’s not for the BCHA or the BC legislature to say how the protocols around that should work. Instead, it should be up to the large Indigenous community in British Columbia to discuss whether they want to have a territorial acknowledgement or not.

The point that you raised is a good one insofar as, sometimes, here in Victoria, we start a lot of meetings with territorial acknowledgements. But it can become pro forma, people going through the motions and not understanding the purpose of a territorial acknowledgement, except for checking a box on the “to do” list – with the agenda as it were. We wouldn’t want that either. And I don’t think a lot of Indigenous folks would want that – if at all, they would likely want a meaningful statement.

But as you pointed out in your question – obviously, symbolic things, like starting sessions at the BC legislature, are less important than substantial changes that impact people’s lives on a daily basis. Starting a session of the BC Legislature with a territorial acknowledgement would be a symbolic change, a way of recognizing Indigenous peoples, but, at the same time, we need to take active and tangible steps to rectify past harms and dismantle ongoing structures that continue to perpetuate these harms.

So, I can also see why if we were to ask Indigenous folks if they wanted to do this, a significant percentage might say, “No,” because they would prefer more substantial changes. I think that’s a respectable position to take as well.

Our goal overall in releasing this supplemental report was to provide information to people, so they could use that if they chose to push for a territorial acknowledgement and also to inform the government of the current situation. The current situation is that Indigenous content is much underrepresented in prayer in the BC legislature.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Dr. Phelps Bondaroff.

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Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 9 – When Rain is Law and Justice is Dry Land

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/05/03

Omar Shakir, J.D., M.A. works as the Israel and Palestine Director for Human Rights Watch. He investigates a variety of human rights abuses within the occupied Palestinian territories/Occupied Palestinian Territories or oPt/OPT (Gaza and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem) and Israel. He earned a B.A. in International Relations from Stanford University, an M.A. in Arab Studies from Georgetown University’s School of Foreign Affairs, and a J.D. from Stanford Law School. He is bilingual in Arabic and English. Previously, he was a Bertha Fellow at the Center for Constitutional Rights with a focus on U.S. counterterrorism policies, which included legal representation of Guantanamo detainees. He was the Arthur R. and Barbara D. Finberg Fellow (2013-2014) for Human Rights Watch with investigations, during this time, into the human rights violations in Egypt, e.g., the Rab’a massacre, which is one of the largest killings of protestors in a single day ever. Also, he was a Fulbright Scholar in Syria.

Language of the oPt/OPT is recognized in the work of the OHCHRAmnesty InternationalOxfam InternationalUnited NationsWorld Health OrganizationInternational Labor OrganizationUNRWAUNCTAD, and so on. Some see the Israeli-Palestinian issue as purely about religion. Thus, this matters to freethought. These ongoing interviews explore this issue in more depth.

Here we continue with the 9th part in our series of conversations with coverage in the middle of middle of May, 2020, to the middle of July, 2020, for the Israeli-Palestinian issue. With the deportation of Shakir, this follows in line with state actions against others, including Amnesty International staff member Laith Abu Zeyad when attempting to see his mother dying from cancer (Amnesty International, 2019a; Zeyad, 2019; Amnesty International, 2020), United States Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib and United States Congresswoman Ilhan Omar who were subject to being barred from entry (Romo, 2019), Professor Noam Chomsky who was denied entry (Hass, 2010), and Dr. Norman Finkelstein who was deported in the past (Silverstein, 2008). Shakir commented in an opinion piece:

Over the past decade, authorities have barred from entry MIT professor Noam Chomsky, U.N. special rapporteurs Richard Falk and Michael Lynk, Nobel Peace Prize winner Mairead Maguire, U.S. human rights lawyers Vincent Warren and Katherine Franke, a delegation of European Parliament members, and leaders of 20 advocacy groups, among others, all over their advocacy around Israeli rights abuses. Israeli and Palestinian rights defenders have not been spared. Israeli officials have smearedobstructed and sometimes even brought criminal charges against them. (Shakir, 2019)

Now, based on the decision of the Israeli Supreme Court and the actions of the Member State of the United Nations, Israel, he, for this session, works from Amman, Jordan.

*Interview conducted on July 23, 2020. The previous interview conducted on May 13, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: With regards to Israeli politics, what is happening there as to the human rights violations happening on the ground?

Omar Shakir: The Israeli coalition government was formed earlier this year (Katkov, 2020). The government is in place with ministers across the board. They have begun to implement policies. Of course, much of the attention, particularly around July 1st, was around the prospect of whether the Israeli government would annex additional parts of the West Bank (Federman, 2020a). At the same time, the COVID-19 crises returned with a vengeance with an uptick in cases in Israel and in the Occupied Palestinian Territory (Goldenberg, 2020). Much of the focus has been on the government’s response to the public health crisis, as well as what it means in terms of schools, education, etc., across the country, as well as travel (Zion, 2020).

So, much of the attention has been there. At the same time, the Israeli government has been debating to pass the budget. If not passed, and if certain events transpire, it could trigger fourth elections, potentially even later this year. That’s really been where most of the public discourse has been focused.

Jacobsen: What about Gaza Strip, East Jerusalem, West Bank?

Shakir: Yes, I think also we have seen, in particular, in East Jerusalem and the West Bank, that the COVID crisis has been quite significant (Akram & Krauss, 2020). In the West Bank, it has been centered around Hebron (Goldenberg, 2020). As a result, the Palestinian Authority has taken a series of measures. They imposed closures in much of the parts of the West Bank where they manage affairs (Associated Press, 2020a). They have also put in place curfews and restrictions on movement. That’s really taken much of the public conversation. We also have continued to see some of the same abuses take place by the Palestinian Authority and the Hamas authorities (Daraghmeh, 2020; Toameh, 2020). In the West Bank, for example, in June, a journalist was detained after a video he had produced, a political video, on the sale of watermelons in Tulkarm, which is the town where he is from, was posted to a Facebook page considered critical of the Palestinian Authority (Committee to Protect Journalists, 2020; Committee to Protect Journalists, 2019).

He spent several weeks in detention and was released on bail earlier this month, earlier in July. We’ve seen other examples in the West Bank. In the Gaza Strip, you continue to have, as of now, two Palestinians detained for participating in a Zoom chat with Israelis, which took place several months ago (United Nations Human Rights Council, 2020).[1] Of course, this is in addition to Israeli government abuses in these areas.

Jacobsen: With some of the coronavirus pandemic focus for many, many governments around the world now, it can reduce the amount of coverage on various relations, international relations. So, some of the major players with regards to the players you’re centrally covering, including European allies of Israel as well as America and other North American allies. What are some of the updates on the international edge of things regarding human rights violation or support of them?

Shakir: I think much of the focus on the international community has been on the prospect of annexation (Associated Press, 2020b; Heller, 2020a; Cook, 2020; Federman, 2020b). You saw many governments in June, early July, issue statements, sometimes speaking directly to Israeli audiences, as to what annexation might mean for their bilateral or multilateral relationships. We have seen the EU, for example, and some European states refer to consequences for Israel if they were to proceed in that direction (Heller, 2020a; Krauss, 2020a). German officials were in Israel in June (Krauss, 2020b) and the UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson wrote an article in a Hebrew language newspaper making pitches around annexation (Heller, 2020a; Halbfinger, 2020a). So, much of the international community’s focus has been around annexation given the July 1st date, the date the Israeli government could, if it chose to, annex part of the West Bank. With the International Criminal Court, we have to await a decision by the pre-trial chamber about whether or not they will confirm jurisdiction over the State of Palestine, a ruling that would allow the Prosecutor to proceeding with a formal investigation (Rubeo & Baroud, 2020; TOI Staff, 2020a). We continue to see statements at the UN regarding developments on the ground (United Nations Human Rights Council, 2020).

Jacobsen: What have been any indications or open statements of Fatou Bensouda as this process has been going forward with the International Criminal Court?

Shakir: The prosecutor has made her position clear (Corder, 2020). The elements for a formal investigation have been met (Middle East Monitor, 2020). Her office put forward a submission for the pre-trial chamber that made clear their position that there is jurisdiction (International Criminal Court, 2020a; International Criminal Court, 2020b). In December (2019), in announcing that her preliminary inquiry had concluded, she said there was reasonable basis to believe that serious crimes committed in the State of Palestine and therefore to proceed with a formal investigation (Carvosso, 2020).

Jacobsen: In other contexts, there have been defamation campaigns against individuals with status and can actually harm the image of Israel as a state, not necessarily the people but as a state. What could be some potential backlash given historical precedent in particular cases towards individuals such as the Chief Prosecutor?

Shakir: Already, the United States and the Israeli government have unleashed an array of attacks against the International Criminal Court (Ravid, 2020). There have been restrictions by the United States, for example, on travel to the U.S. by senior ICC officials (Ibid.). An Executive Order was issued by President Trump that put in place consequences of those who work on investigations that touch on the United States or its partners, including Israel. There have also been bellicose statements coming from the Israeli government, including threats against the ICC (MEE and agencies, 2020). We have also seen a number of states across Europe and the world really defend the ICC as an important institution in the fight against impunity and highlighting the importance of its independence and neutrality (Euractiv, 2020). I think it has been very much a concern in the international community and, certainly, should a decision be made to confirm jurisdiction, it can be expected that those attacks will escalate.

Jacobsen: Now, with regards to some more specific issues, there was a list of Knesset members who gave a statement. These were members of the Joint List. Was it the Yesh Din legal opinion (Yesh Din, 2020)?

Shakir: Yes, Yesh Din.

Jacobsen: So, what were those statements? Why did those particular Knesset members take part in this?

Shakir: Yesh Din is an Israeli human rights group that has been working in the West Bank for 15 years now on a range of issues involving land confiscation, settler violence, etc. Their legal advisor, Michael Sfard, who – full disclosure – also represented me in my legal challenge against the Israeli government’s decision to deport me (Kershner, 2019), wrote a legal opinion finding the Israeli government is carrying out the crime of apartheid in the West Bank (Iraqi, 2020; Sfard, 2020a). The opinion looked at particular serious abuses and the kind of regime of systematic discrimination in place in the West Bank, as well as the intent of Israeli officials (Sfard, 2020b). Several Knesset members, particular members of the Joint List, one of the larger parties in Israel representing a significant percent of the Palestinian population in Israel, but which also has a Jewish MK and has attracted a number of votes from Jewish Israelis, read excerpts of the legal opinion in the Knesset this week. In so doing, they highlighted their significant concern about the effectively permanent occupation and the systematic repression of Palestinians.

Jacobsen: Haaretz has reported on some suicide cases (Shehada, 2020). This is in Palestine (Sharir & Gontarz, 2020). What were some of those cases, not necessarily in particular but, as general trends based on the lives that are being forced on them?

Shakir: There, certainly, have been reports on an uptick in suicides (Shehada, 2020; Sharir & Gontarz, 2020). It is always difficult to speculate why or what leads someone to take their own life. Certainly, when you look at the situation in Gaza, many people feel a lack of hope. Gaza, for the last 13 years, has been facing a closure (Al Mezan, 2020a; Al Mezan, 2020b), a policy by the Israeli government, supported for much of this time by the Egyptian government (Chick, 2010; Middle Est Policy Council, n.d.), of caging the 2,000,000 people of Gaza in, of turning Gaza into an open-air prison, where there is a generalized travel ban robbing 2,000,000 Palestinians of their free movement outside of narrow exceptions (OCHA, 2021). That closure has affected the entry and exit of goods and this has had a drastic effect on the economy (United Nations: The Question of Palestine, 2016). Eighty percent of the population depend on financial support from international organizations (Asharq Al Awsat, 2018). Young people face increasingly high unemployment rates of well over 50% (UNCTAD, 2019).

Where you have significant parts of the population who have few opportunities, you also have a repressive Hamas government there that is quashing dissent (Daraghmeh, 2018). So in a 25 x 7 mile or 45 by 11 kilometre area, you have 2,000,000 people locked into a dire economic situation, few opportunities, frequent power cuts, the vast majority of water is unfit for human consumption (Anera, 2020). With all of these things going on, you have seen a number of people who have decided to take their own life (Shehada, 2020; Sharir & Gontarz, 2020). Each situation is different, but, certainly, the overall situation of Gaza is vital context.

Jacobsen: What about cases that exemplify this, not necessarily direct deportation cases such as yours, but those of Laith Abu Zeyad (Shakir, 2020; Amnesty International, 2020) who has had a travel ban imposed on him since October of last year (2019)?

Shakir: Absolutely, one doesn’t realize how important the freedom of movement is until it is taken away from you. The ability to travel to the next town, visit family, to go on vacation, to study abroad, etc. I think some people have experienced a taste of this amid COVID closures, but it pales in comparison to the daily reality for millions of Palestinians (Arab News, 2020; Kenny, 2020). Laith Abu Zeyad is a human rights defender, a colleague, a representative of Amnesty International who received a travel ban by Israel for undisclosed security reasons. He lives about 3 kilometres away from a hospital in Jerusalem, where his mother was receiving cancer treatment. He sought a permit to be by her side. She died in December, a couple months after the travel ban was imposed. He was also denied the ability to head to Jordan, which is the only outlet for Palestinians in the West Bank if they want to travel abroad unless they receive a rare permit to use Israel’s Ben-Gurion Airport. He missed a relative’s funeral in Amman. This is a human rights defender for one of the world’s most prominent human rights organizations, Amnesty International (Zeyad, 2020). It gives a window into some of the restrictions many Palestinians face.

Jacobsen: Back to Israel with a particular focus on Israeli politics, what is the status of the Netanyahu and Gantz alliance (Halbfinger, 2020b)?

Shakir: It is a day-to-day process that varies. It was never, certainly, an alliance in which there was much love lost between the two main protagonists (Associated Free Press, 2020). Gantz said he joined to fight the coronavirus (Mualem, 2020a). There are some differences of policies on several issues. Reports in the Israeli press, from July 22nd, indicated that Netanyahu was contemplating early elections (TOI Staff, 2020b). There’s a context now, discussions over the budget (Scheer, 2020). There have been some disagreements around responses to the COVID crisis, annexation (Williams, 2020; Heller, 2020b; Heller & Williams, 2020; Reuters Staff, 2020a). In any coalition, there are disagreements and it is unclear what will transpire, but, in the meantime, disagreements between the two main coalition partners will remain a near-daily fixture.

Jacobsen: With respect to May of 2020, into the current period, late July, what have been some of the updates on recent criminal proceedings for Benjamin Netanyahu, Bibi (Lubell, 2020; Reuters Staff, 2020b; Lubell, 2020)?

Shakir: There have been several preliminary hearings on the case. The most recent one set a schedule for further hearings (Reuters Staff, 2020b). The evidentiary part of the proceedings will not really get started before January 2021 (TOI Staff, 2020c). The hearings thus far have been very preliminary, formally kicking off the process. It is likely that the heart of the proceedings will take place next year.

Jacobsen: Now, what do you think are going to be some of these processes moving forward regarding the legal context for Benjamin Netanyahu? How do you think this might impact, based on the facts that we have on the ground, the tenuous nature of this Gantz and Netanyahu political alliance?

Shakir: I think there still remains a lot to be seen. Benjamin Netanyahu stands as the longest serving Israeli prime minister (BBC News, 2020a; BBC News, 2020b). It is unprecedented for a prime minister under indictment to remain in power. Certainly, Netanyahu’s fate has been at the center of Israel’s political instability that we’ve seen over the last year and a half (OHCHR, 2020a). It is difficult to prognosticate how things might change. Netanyahu still seems quite strong in the polls (Mualem, 2020b). Meanwhile, Benny Gantz has dropped in the polls with the dissolution of the Blue & White Party (Caspit, 2020). There aren’t many challengers that have naturally emerged (Ferber, 2020). It seems we are stuck with this reality, probably, for some time, even if there are elections. It is difficult to see a prospect for a different trajectory.

Jacobsen: With the focus of the international community and the regional community on both coronavirus and the prospects for this full-blown annexation, particularly on the West Bank, I want to touch on one thing in particular. How much would be projected, the West Bank, outright annexed?

Shakir: There have been many different proposals floated. As much as there have been discussions about annexation (Krauss, 2020c), the details have not been laid out. According to some press reports, they have not been discussed at the senior governmental level. I would say: at one end of the spectrum, annexation could encompass everywhere encompassed by the Trump Plan (Lederer, 2020), up to 30% of the West Bank (Heller, 2020a), including the Jordan Valley and much of the areas where settlements lie or areas under the control of settlements, to, on the other end, a more symbolic annexation, which would apply to some of the settlements closer to the Green Line (Bateman, 2020) that are larger and more well-established as settlement blocks as they are sometimes referred to as. I think that’s part of the internal conversation, the scale of annexation. While this was on the front of everyone’s minds around July 1, amid the uptick of corona cases and other global developments, it has sort of fallen out of the discussion. I think a lot remains to be seen as to what will take place and when.

Jacobsen: This cybercrime law (Kuttab, 2020), how is this limiting Palestinian freedom of expression in particular?

Shakir: Palestinians have had for a couple of years a law, a cybercrime law, that includes many restrictions on free expression (Civicus, 2020). It is important to note that many of parts of the cybercrime law were already in the Palestinian Penal Code. There were already laws, for example, that made it illegal to insult “higher authorities,” or otherwise imposed criminal sentences based on peaceful free speech (Human Rights Watch, 2016). The cybercrime law clarified that some of these provisions also applied to online speech (7amleh – Arab Center for Social Media Advancement, 2018). We have seen some of the provisions applied to, for example, criticism on Facebook (Nofal, 2020; Fatafta, 2020). According to PA statistics given to Human Rights Watch, in 2018, 815 people were detained under the cybercrime law (Human Rights Watch, 2019). So, certainly, the cybercrime law gives additional tools to a government that has a systematic practice of arbitrary detaining critics and opponents (Human Rights Watch, 2018).

Jacobsen: What is the political stability in each portion of Palestinian territory?

Shakir: It is difficult to assess that. Governments that look unstable have a way of hanging on. Certainly, the situation in Gaza is tense with closure, but it has been 13 years without major change since 2007 (OHCHR, 2020b). In the West Bank, there’s certainly a lot of questions that annexation has brought to the fore about the future of the Palestinian Authority (Rahman, 2020). We have already seen security coordination between the Israeli government and the Palestinian Authority decrease significantly, if not stop altogether, amid talk of annexation (OCHA, 2020). I think there’s a lot hinging on what happens to annexation, as well the future of Mahmoud Abbas, the President of the Palestinian Authority. Those two things could trigger things changing quickly.

Jacobsen: A lot of commentary has focused on the death knell or the outright death of the two-State solution. Some have been claiming that it has been dead for a long time and the Trump-Kushner plan merely made it more explicit. What are some of the commentaries happening on the ground now among either political elites or ordinary people, on either side of the territories?

Shakir: One sign of someone who has spent a lot of time on the ground in Israel and Palestine is that they focus on the reality on the ground and not their preferred solution. Whatever one might prefer as a solution, we have in effect a one-state reality on the ground (Beinart, 2020), where the Israeli government is the dominant power inside the Green Line and throughout the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip, and systematically represses Palestinians and discriminates against them in favour of Jewish Israelis (Human Rights Watch, 2020). For most people on the ground, the question is about how you get beyond this discriminatory reality today and force a change in the status quo. Given this context, discussions around solutions feel academic and a bit far removed. That has been in certain quarters, in particular in the United States among political elites, more conversation on the one-State/two-State solution triggered in part by annexation, but also by a piece written by Peter Beinart (Ibid.), an American Jewish thinker and academic, earlier this month that touched on his personal shift of opinion towards a one-state solution founded on equality for all people living in Israel and Palestine. For Beinart and others, the concern animating them is to move beyond the current ugly reality.

Jacobsen: The oldest human rights issue is the Israel-Palestine conflict. With regards to the foundation of the United Nations, so, if this annexation goes full bore, what does this state about the efficacy the legitimacy of an international rights based order?

Shakir: There are many other longstanding conflicts out there that date back to the end of WWII and the post-colonial moment. But I think annexation should trigger change in the international community’s approach here. It is quite clear what annexation means in terms of international law. A move towards annexation wouldn’t change the reality of occupation or the protections that Palestinians enjoy under the law of occupation. But it should put to rest the notion that Israel considers its occupation temporary (Shafir, 2017). It is fully intent on ruling in perpetuity Palestinians and depriving them of their fundamental rights. So, it should trigger a shift in the international community’s approach.

Jacobsen: Also, in late June, Belgian and Dutch parliaments adopted motions to look at various measures that could be taken on the premise of Israel annexing Palestinian territory (Ahren, 2020). How is this proceeding along the lines of taking real accountability measures, nation by nation, if annexation moves forward?

Shakir: It is long overdue. I think Israel has maintained for years now a discriminatory system against Palestinians and committed serious abuses. It is beyond time for the international community to take action and hold Israel accountable. Those measures shouldn’t turn on annexation. Annexation may or may not change the reality on the ground. In East Jerusalem, which has been annexed for more than 50+ years, you have separate and unequal rule for decades over Palestinians, who face many of the same abuses as they face elsewhere in the West Bank. The focus should be on the current reality on the ground. Annexation may make things worse, but things are quite dire as we speak. It is encouraging to see movement in some countries towards accountability. More is needed.

Jacobsen: Last question for this particular session for July, should there be any focus to documents or reports that might be coming out of Human Rights Watch?

Shakir: We’re working on research on a range of issues. I will happily discuss those when they’re out. But I suspect that you’ll be hearing from us in the coming weeks and months with some pretty significant reports. I did neglect to mention one thing in response to one of your earlier questions, which I wanted to add before we conclude. There have been several examples in recent weeks of killings of Palestinians by Israeli security forces that have received significant attention because they are emblematic of the systematic pattern of excessive force by Israeli security services against Palestinians. Two examples in particular have received significant attention. One is the killing of Eyad Hallaq, a Palestinian man with disabilities who was gunned down in Jerusalem in circumstances that, certainly, suggest that he did not pose any sort of imminent threat to life or serious bodily injury to officers (Hasson, Khoury, & Breiner, 2020). The police acknowledged that he did not have a weapon and did not pose a threat at the time. Similarly, a Palestinian man, Ahmad Erekat, was shot and killed at a checkpoint in the West Bank on the weekend of his sister’s wedding (Reuters Staff, 2020c). His car crashed into a checkpoint. He emerged from the vehicle with his hands up as video evidence showed. Again, in circumstances in which he did not appear to pose an imminent threat to the lives of the officers, he was gunned to death and died there. These cases are two of many that take place on a regular basis, where Palestinians are gunned down and killed when Israeli forces open fire on Palestinians in circumstances in which they do not pose an imminent threat to life and serious bodily injury, which is the standard in international human rights law.

Jacobsen: Omar, as always, thank you.

Shakir: Thanks, Scott!

Previous Sessions (Chronological Order)

Interview with Omar Shakir – Israel and Palestine Director, Human Rights Watch (Middle East and North Africa Division)

HRW Israel and Palestine (MENA) Director on Systematic Methodology and Universal Vision

Human Rights Watch (Israel and Palestine) on Common Rights and Law Violations

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 1 – Recent Events

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 2 – Demolitions

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 3 – November-December: Deportation from Tel Aviv, Israel for Human Rights Watch Israel and Palestine Director

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 4 – Uninhabitable: The Viability of Gaza Strip’s 2020 Unlivability

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 5 – The Trump Peace Plan: Is This the “The Deal of the Century,” or Not?

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 6 – Tripartite Partition: The Israeli Elections, the International Criminal Court (ICC), and SARS-CoV-2/COVID-19

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 7 – New Heights to the Plight and the Fight: Covid-19, Hegemony, Restrictions, and Rights

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 8 (w/ Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967) – Annexation, International Law, Occupation, Rights, and Settlements

Addenda

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) Addendum: Some History and Contextualization of Rights

Other Resources Internal to Canadian Atheist

Interview with Dr. Norman Finkelstein on Gaza Now

Extensive Interview with Gideon Levy

Interview with Musa Abu Hashash – Field Researcher (Hebron District), B’Tselem

Interview with Gideon Levy – Columnist, Haaretz

Interview with Dr. Usama Antar – Independent Political Analyst (Gaza Strip, Palestine)

Interview with Wesam Ahmad – Representative, Al-Haq (Independent Palestinian Human Rights Organization)

Extensive Interview with Professor Richard Falk – Fmr. (5th) United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967

Extensive Interview with Professor John Dugard – Fmr. (4th) United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967

Extensive Interview with S. Michael Lynk – (7th) United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967

Conversation with John Dugard, Richard Falk, and S. Michael Lynk on the Role of the Special Rapporteur, and the International Criminal Court & Jurisdiction

To resolve the Palestinian question we need to end colonialism

Trump’s Colonial Solution to the Question of Palestine Threatens the Foundations of International Law

Dr. Norman Finkelstein on the International Criminal Court

References

7amleh – Arab Center for Social Media Advancement. (2018, June 5). Has the Palestinian Cybercrime Law really been amended?. Retrieved from https://www.apc.org/en/news/has-palestinian-cybercrime-law-really-been-amended.

Ahren, R. (2020, June 30). Dutch MPs urge list of possible sanctions in response to Israeli annexation. Retrieved from https://www.timesofisrael.com/dutch-mps-urge-list-of-possible-sanctions-in-response-to-israeli-annexation/.

Akram, F. & Krauss, J. (2020, May 22). Friday prayers resume in Gaza despite new virus fears. Retrieved from https://apnews.com/article/20dfe9d65b9120e816c2323a9d6ced5b.

Al Mezan, (2020b, June 28). Joint Press Release: Civil Society Submit Appeal to UN Special Procedures Urging Access for Gaza Patients. Retrieved from https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/joint-press-release-civil-society-submit-appeal-un-special.

Al Mezan. (2020a, July 20). 13 Years of Illegal Closure with Impunity. Retrieved from https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/13-years-illegal-closure-impunity.

Amnesty International. (2020, May 15). Israel/OPT: Court sets hearing seeking to lift travel ban on Amnesty campaigner. Retrieved from https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2020/05/israelopt-court-sets-hearing-seeking-to-lift-travel-ban-on-amnesty-campaigner/.

Anera. (2020). Addressing the Water Crisis. Retrieved from https://www.anera.org/what-we-do/water/#:~:text=Gaza’s%20water%20resources,levels%20of%20salinity%20and%20nitrates.

Arab News. (2020, July 12). Palestine imposes curfew, bans travel as COVID-19 cases soar. Retrieved from https://www.arabnews.com/node/1703696/middle-east.

Asharq Al Awsat. (2018, June 13). 80% of Gaza Strip Population Depends on Aid. Retrieved from https://english.aawsat.com//home/article/1299166/80-gaza-strip-population-depends-aid.

Associated Free Press. (2020, May 17). Israel ends 500-day political crisis with inauguration of Netanyahu-Gantz unity government. Retrieved from https://www.dw.com/en/israel-ends-500-day-political-crisis-with-inauguration-of-netanyahu-gantz-unity-government/a-53470338.

Associated Press. (2020a, May 26). Bethlehem Nativity Church reopens after coronavirus closure. Retrieved from https://apnews.com/article/ca4d8befe2e97b99c91b1abe99653f50.

Associated Press. (2020b, June 4). Netanyahu and settlers clash over West Bank annexation plans. Retrieved from https://apnews.com/article/fef216bbfc30edfe50c910521fad6e3d.

Bateman, T. (2020, June 25). Israel annexation: New border plans leave Palestinians in despair. Retrieved from https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-53139808.

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Sfard, M. (2020a, July 9). Yes, It’s Israeli Apartheid. Even Without Annexation. Retrieved from https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-yes-it-s-israeli-apartheid-even-without-annexation-1.8984029.

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Footnotes

[1] “Report of the Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories occupied since 1967*” or A/HRC/44/60 stated:

21. Cases of arbitrary arrest and detention by the de-facto authorities in Gaza continued to be reported, particularly of journalist, human rights and political activists. On 9 April, a number of Palestinian activists were arrested and detained by the de-facto authorities after being accused of engaging in “normalization activities with Israel”. A small group of activists had organized a zoom call with young Israeli activists to discuss living conditions in Gaza.30 Many continue to be arrested because of their political affiliation and perceived opposition to the Hamas authorities. Serious restrictions on freedom of expression continue to be in place particularly in the context of reporting on the socio-economic impact of the COVID19 pandemic.31 In June, a number of persons were arrested by the de-facto authorities in Gaza, as they expressed opposing political views and attempted to organize events that were banned by security forces.

22. A number of arrests by Palestinian Security Forces continued to be reported in the West Bank. Many of those arrested were accused of using social media platforms to criticize the Palestinian authority or expressing opposing political views.32 Limitations on freedom of expression remain a concern for journalists. A number of allegations of ill-treatment of those arrested also continue to be received.

United Nations Human Rights Council. (2020).

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Faye 11: Bucket Lists to Fill With Flights

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/04/22

Faye Girsh is the Founder and the Past President of the Hemlock Society of San Diego. She was the President of the National Hemlock Society (Defunct) and the World Federation of RTD Societies (Extant). Currently, she is on the Advisory Board of the Final Exit Network and the Euthanasia Research and Guidance Organization. Here we talk about bucket lists.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Getting what we want out of life comes naturally clipped to the wants of others, some never even get what they need out of life, while most possible people never had one. 

North Americans use the phrase “Bucket List” to refer to the wants out of life. A complete itemized inventory of ‘what one wants out of life.’ For those with terminal illnesses, these can become the most important parts of the final journey.

Do you note any consistencies in the bucket lists of individuals pursuing a rational suicide in the light of a terminal illness?

Faye Girsh: I don’t know if I “pursue” rational suicide. I may be content to die “naturally” or with good hospice care, or inhaling Nitrogen, if it comes to that. My “bucket list” includes a trip to Pakistan and fun, enriching things like that.

And, I guess I would add somewhere that I do not want a prolonged and difficult death and, especially, I do not want to lose my marbles with a stroke or one of those horrible dementias. But it’s easier to control my Pakistan trip (which isn’t too easy these days) than how my death will be.

I am glad to have a few options but mostly it’s out of my hands, except maybe to shorten the ending by my own hand or use some very restrictive legal means. I should be more of an optimist about that, having worked in this field for 30+ years but I mostly see death happening to people. If they pursue their bucket list vigorously enough what happens at the end will not be so bad.

Jacobsen: If you have seen some, what have been some of the more touching items on the list?

Girsh: I am lucky to have had love, two fulfilling careers (as a psychologist and then in the right to die movement), enough money to not worry about it, wonderful children (whom I hardly ever see), friends, and — my special enrichment — travel.

I have arranged to live in Japan, Egypt, China, London and visited, in some depth, about 150 countries. One reason to keep on living is to visit more places and learn their cultures. If I could magically learn Chinese and Arabic, life would be even better. I am 88 next month and have no complaints about how my life is going, or went, and am not ready to give it up yet.

Jacobsen: You’re in retirement now. What would you recommend people consider getting done while in young adulthood and in middle age to avoid some obvious regrets? When six feet under, the grass won’t care much for the silence, anyhow, or the ‘losses’.

Girsh: Everyone has a passion. I don’t regret not learning the cello or writing poetry but I am so grateful that I had the determination to travel. I might join the foreign service the next time around but, short of not having done that, I am happy with the decisions I made.

Being in the right to die movement for the past 30+ years has been stimulating and rewarding. Though the pace seemed glacial it is amazing to see the progress in this time — and to realize how much there is left to do and how many bad deaths there still are.

Courage and perseverance are qualities needed to move the needle. I am grateful for my colleagues around the world who have demonstrated those characteristics, especially Derek Humphry (founder of the Hemlock Society) and Jack Kevorkian, of whom I was a great admirer.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Faye.

Girsh: Thanks, Scott, for your thoughtful and provocative questions.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Dr. P.B. 1 – Religious Privilege in Practice in Canada: Municipal Prayers & Permissive Tax Exemptions

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/10/10

Dr. Teale Phelps Bondaroff has been a community organizer for more than 15 years. He has been active in Saanich municipal politics. He earned a PhD in Politics and International Studies from the University of Cambridge and two BAs from the University of Calgary in Political Science and International Relations, respectively. He is a Board Member of the Greater Victoria Placemaking Network. He owns and operates a research consultancy called The Idea Tree. He is a New Democrat, politically, and is the President of the Saanich-Gulf Islands NDP riding association. He founded OceansAsia as a marine conservation organization devoted to combating illegal fishing and wildlife crime. Here we talk about the recent research work of the British Columbia Humanist Association.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What are you doing in general terms now? How are you progressing through each of them?

Dr. Teale Phelps Bondaroff: I thought I would talk about some of the research the BC Humanist Association is working on now.

The research team is working on two separate areas of focus. One is tax exemptions for places of worship, and the other looks at legislative prayer.

Our work on legislative prayer has two broad areas: prayer in municipal council meetings and prayer in the BC Legislature. [Ed. See interview with Ranil Prasad, “Interview with Ranil Prasad on Municipal Prayers.”]

In 2015, in the Saguenay case, the Canadian Supreme Court ruled that prayers in municipal councils were unconstitutional. This practice represented an unconstitutional violation of the separation of religion and government. Prayer in this context privileged some views over others. It excluded many individuals, and fundamentally, it violated the state’s duty to religious neutrality.

That decision was really critical. It said, “You cannot start a municipal council meeting with a prayer.” Last summer, the BCHA research team did a survey of every municipality in British Columbia to see if they were in compliance with Saguenay, 23 were not in compliance – they were starting the inaugural sessions with a prayer. Look for a report on this research coming out soon.

Now, the research team is looking at municipal prayers across the country. We have already encountered a number of municipalities that start regular sessions with prayer. This is something we didn’t find this in B.C.

Our research team looked at the top 50 municipalities in each province (by population) and we are now looking at the more than 3,000 municipalities in Canada, all to see which ones are following the Saguenay decision. We have already completed Manitoba and are working through Ontario. We decided to start on these provinces as our preliminary survey of the first 50 municipalities identified a significant number that were not in compliance.

The reason this work is important is because the court decision is robust and well-argued. However, if it is not followed, the decision is less impactful on people’s lives. Our goal is to identify municipalities violating the law and remind them they should not start their sessions with a prayer, and monitor them to see if they comply with the ruling.

Our other work on legislative prayer is in the B.C. Legislature. We have been studying this issue for a number of years. We started looking at prayers in the B.C. Legislature going back to 2003 [as part of the House of Prayers Report and accompanying study]. We have been analyzing data and releasing a lot of research on our findings.

We have the original House of Prayer Report, this looks at prayers in the BC Legislature in a comprehensive +130-page document.

This summer we released a supplement to this report that specifically considered Indigenous content in prayers in the BC Legislature and explored the possibility of starting sittings of the B.C. Legislative Assembly with a territorial acknowledgement – our Decolonizing Prayer report.  

We are also planning on looking at the history of legislative prayer in British Columbia, tracking how the processes has changed over time and what caused changes to occur. This project is currently on pause until the legislative library opens up again.

We also just submitted a draft of a book chapter. This piece is an update of the House of Prayers study, and it looks at prayers since the B.C. Legislature changed its policies.

One outcome of the House of Prayer’s report (and the broader review of legislative prayer conducted by the Office of the Clerk) was that the procedures around prayers in the BC Legislature have changed. In November 2019 the practice changed so that now daily sittings begin with ‘prayers and reflections’ rather than just ‘prayers,’ and the list of sample prayers provided to MLAs has been updated.

Our book chapter looks at how these changes have impacted the content, structure, and religiosity of prayers delivered in the BC Legislature. In other words, we wanted to determine the extent to which changing the name of the standing order changed the content of the prayers.

The assumption is that there will be some small change, because if you are asked to deliver a prayer, then you’re more likely to give one. It could be secular. You could read poetry or read an inspirational quote, but because you were asked to deliver a prayer, you are much more likely to adopt some kind of prayer-like structure, at the very least. And we saw this in our previous work, where even when an MLA was reading a poem or delivering an otherwise secular statement, the MLA was still ending the prayer or statement in “Amen.” So we thought that the procedural changes from prayers to ‘prayers and reflections’ would encourage people to be more expansive in their acknowledgements, less likely to adopt a religious structure, and perhaps less likely to deliver a prayer. This chapter is currently being reviewed.

The BCHA has yet another piece of research out on legislative prayer, and this one is a peer reviewed article in the Journal of Secularism and Nonreligion that I wrote with Ian Bushfield, our Executive Director, This article explores the challenges that the Office of the Clerk faced when attempting to revise the list of sample prayers that are provided to MLAs.

Every day an MLA delivers a prayer in the B.C. Legislature at the start of the session. They are given two choices: They can read a prayer off a sample list or deliver a prayer of their own devising. We found exactly half of the MLAs were delivering a prayer off the sample list, or a combination. The sample sheet is a very narrow range of options. Half of them are sectarian, overtly religious, though vaguely non-denominational. The other half are vaguely secular, but still follow a prayer form. The Office of the Clerk went about updating this list last year, and the BCHA submitted 6 humanist options, along with the full House of Prayers Report. The Office of the Clerk was basically looking to update the list, given that it represented only a very narrow range of faith traditions.  

What is interesting about that the active review of the list of sample prayers, is that this process may be unconstitutional, and it is certainly impractical. That is what we argue in our paper. Basically, the state is unable to adjudicate on cases of religious dogma, which has been upheld by various court decisions, and the state has a duty of religious neutrality, as stipulated in the Saguenay decision. It may impossible, therefore, for the state to generate a set of sample prayers, because every time the state selects a prayer for this list, it is, in a sense, arbitrating dogma. Selecting one prayer over another entails the state making a decision that it is incapable of making, both from a constitutional and from a practical perspective.

In our paper, we argue that the state can’t offer a sheet of sample prayers because, in so doing, it is necessarily favouring some religions over others, and it has no basis for doing so.

For those interested in what legislative prayer is like across the country, the BCHA recently released a report surveying ‘Legislative Prayer Across Canada.’

Jacobsen: What about taxes and legal exemptions?

Phelps Bondaroff: One research project that the BCHA started last summer was a survey of legislation that grants religious exceptions, where an individual or group is treated differently on the basis of religious belief or a lack of religious belief.

One component of this project is looking at permissive tax exemptions at the municipal level. A lot of municipalities under the Municipal Charter and other legislation in B.C. can exempt other actors from tax exemption. The goal of granting permissive tax exemptions is to encourage or reward, or help along, some group that is providing a benefit to the community. Some of the recipients of permissive tax exemptions are places of worship. We are looking at this policy and also calculating the overall figure for how much money municipal governments are granting in the form of municipal tax exemptions.

The question is: “Is a place of worship necessarily benefitting a community or is it acting as a private club?” There are differences between a rowing club that is open to anybody, versus a place of worship only open to members, for example. Should we be treating them the same, or giving one greater privilege?

Some places are being treated differently than non-religious recipients, e.g., a local boat club or historical society, or secular soup kitchen, would have different timelines and protocols for approval for a permissive tax exemption, than a place of worship around the corner. Places of worship may receive a tax exemption in perpetuity; whereas, a Boys and Girls Club, for example, has to apply every X number of years.

In many jurisdictions, places of worship may be granted an exemption automatically, and other would-be recipients must apply. In fact, places of worship are automatically granted statutory tax exemptions for their actual place of worship, and municipalities can choose to grant permissive tax exemptions for the rest of the land and improvements surrounding the actual place of worship.

Also, there are often no benefits test in municipalities that grant permissive tax exemptions. There is a tacit assumption that places of worship should receive a tax exemption without considering the question of public benefit. They may be providing one; some host a soup kitchen or offer some programming or services for the public. That’s great, and they may warrant permissive tax exemptions in these cases. However, some may be acting like a private club, offering services only to members. This these cases, a permissive tax exemption would not be justified.

The BCHA is working on developing sample legislation, policies, and bylaws that would provide a robust benefits test, basically saying: “Hey, if you are going to receive public tax money intended to support activities that benefit the community, then we want to check in to make sure you actively working to benefit the community.”

We are looking at various ways of measuring community benefit, and seeing if there are reasonable questions municipalities can ask to make sure tax money is going to organizations that are inclusive and provide a general benefit to the public.

We should have a backgrounder coming out on this shortly, which explains the difference between permissive and statutory tax exemptions, and a more detailed comprehensive report coming out in the near future.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Dr. Phelps Bondaroff.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Professor Burge 9: Religion as Behaviour, Belief, and Belonging

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/04/22

Professor Ryan Burge‘s website states: “I am an Assistant Professor of Political Science as well as the Graduate Coordinator at Eastern Illinois University. I teach in a variety of areas, including American institutions, political behavior, and research methods. My research focuses largely on the intersection between religiosity and political behavior (especially in the American context). Previously, I have completed an appointment as a post doctoral research fellow at the Paul Simon Public Policy Institute in Carbondale, Illinois. While there I was an adviser on issues of survey methodology and polling, as well as providing data collection and analysis.

I have published over a dozen articles in a number of well regarded peer reviewed journals including Politics & Religion, the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, the Review of Religious Research, the Journal of Religious Leadership, RepresentationPoliticsGroupsand Identities, the Journal of Communication and Religion, the Journal of Religion, Media and Digital Culture and the Social Science Computer Review. 

In addition, my research has been covered in a variety of media outlets including The New York Times, The Washington Post, CNN, NBC, Vox, 538, BuzzFeed News, Al-Jazeera, Christianity Today, Religion News Service, The Daily Mail, Deseret News, World Magazine, Relevant, and C-SPAN. I am the co-founder and frequent contributor to Religion in Public, a forum for scholars of religion and politics to make their work accessible to a more general audience.

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about academic freedom, Christianity, political involvement of some religion, and religion as primarily belonging.

*Interview conducted on August 4, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, there are private universities in Canada. There are private universities in the United States. Often, they’re going to be a particular religious denomination. Given the demographics of North America, they are most likely to harbour a denominational status as some form of Christian.

There’s another question there. It has to do with academic freedom. What is the intersection there between academic freedom and religious status for a university? Is there a conflict, in general, in the United States of America?

Professor Ryan Burge: I would say that most Christian schools are of two minds about academic freedom, especially the administration because they realize that they want to get the best faculty that they can get.

At the same time, these schools are attached to national denominations that are wealthy. You have to toe the line of what the denomination wants, which means signing lifestyle statement or covenant statements about how you’re going to behave not only on campus but off campus.

I’ve interviewed at a couple of these schools early in my career when I didn’t know where I would end up. Many of them would be, especially by a Canadian audience, very conservative, even by an American audience.

They are, definitely, conservative Evangelical, not Bob Jones or Liberty, but one step away from that. The tenure concept is an interesting one. They would say, “We have tenure here,” but it can be revoked. “And it has never happened or it is unlikely to happen.”

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Burge: They would use language like that. You would have to do some clearly a violation of the covenant or the doctrine of the university. There are counterexamples when universities have revoked tenure from tenure professors, Wheaton College.

Some called it the Evangelical Harvard. Many prominent Evangelicals went to Wheaton College. They sign a lifestyle statement that says ‘homosexuality is incompatible with the Gospel.’ Something like that. One of their political science professors during Ramadan on Facebook said, ‘Christians and Muslims worship the same god, belief in the same god.’

It caused quite an uproar. She left Wheaton. She wasn’t fired; she didn’t quit. They “separated.” That’s the language that they would use. She got some kind of settlement that was never disclosed. There are instances where you don’t have as much freedom.

Which is super interesting and way under covered by the media. Especially for people studying Evangelicals in America, the vast majority of those scholars were Evangelicals themselves teaching at Evangelical institutions.

I think there is some pressure there internally or institutionally about not trying to put Evangelicals into too bad of a light for a number of reasons. I think a lot of Evangelical behaviour research in policy was stunted because there wasn’t a diversity of opinions, beliefs, and backgrounds, among those studying Evangelicals.

I can say it is much better now. There are Evangelicals, atheists, and people of other faith groups, studying Evangelicals. I think Evangelicals get a more fair reading, meaning a more honest reading, today than they did 20 years ago – on their political beliefs and voting behaviours.

For a long time, I think it was very one-sided because of the makeup of Academia.

Jacobsen: For clarity of the audience, you did, in a prior portion of life, identify as Evangelical Christian.

Burge: I grew up Evangelical. I do not identify as Evangelical any longer. I am clearly a Mainline Protestant Christian, which has United Methodists and American Baptists (which is what I am), Presbyterians, Evangelical Lutheran Church of American, Episcopalians, Anglicans.

Our church allows women to preach, to lead. Many of the churches in our denomination welcome and accept LGBTQ lifestyle. We are socially progressive. Our church gave a pension to Coretta Scott King, Martin Luther King’s widow, after he died.

Even though, they didn’t have to do it, but racial justice was important to them. We are the more moderate version of American Christianity, polite Christianity, which doesn’t seem to exist anymore in a lot of places.

I don’t identify as Evangelical any longer.

Jacobsen: What denominations of Christianity have an explicit orientation towards political involvement, as in wanting that conflation of political life and religious life?

Burge: That’s a good one. I find the black church. The African American Methodist Episcopal Church in America – a lot of black Pentecostals – are political. There are historical reasons for that. Their churches were formed at a time when black politicians could not get an audience at a white church, white community centre, etc.

The black church became a haven. That’s why they became active because they didn’t have access to many institutions like white people did. There are pockets of Evangelical denominations active.

But most churches at the aggregate level are very resistant to being overtly political. There are always the examples like Robert Jeffress. A guy who is extremely politically active. A guy from Dallas, Texas who supports Trump on every issue and had Pence at his church on July 4th.

Those guys are very rare, though. The average Southern Baptist preacher is not overtly political from the pulpit because they realize the vast majority of the American public does not want pastors to be overtly political.

You cannot make statements about specific denominations, but can about particular pastors in specific denominations who get focused on a lot in the media.

Jacobsen: What ones are the most hesitant? People like Billy Graham were burned in their political dealings. There is a prominent example of an individual who was clearly a very religious man, a Christian religious man, who took a step back in a number of ways due to being burned around Nixon.

Burge: Yes, I would say that the denominations that are the least likely to speak about politics are the ones that are most divided politically, e.g., the United Methodist Church in America. The United Methodist Church is the largest mainline denomination in American.

They are the counterpart to the Southern Baptists, but they are 50%-55% Republican and 40% Democrats. That’s a pretty good mix for a church. They have tried their best to navigate these differences by trying to be as non-committal as possible.

What you see as a downside of trying to be everything to everybody, they decided to split in this past year. Conservatives are going to form a new denomination where they are not going to affirm the LGBT lifestyle and the United Methodist Church is going t stay what it is, which is open and affirming to LGBT people.

There is a downside there. It festers discontent and division at the lower levels. I think churches like that, churches that are more divided; you are going to see less commitment, less overt politics. 80% Democrat or 80% Republican churches will talk politics, goosing their base, not making anybody mad, because of that.

That’s what pastors are thinking about the most. What will keep my job safe? What will not?

Jacobsen: You used the term “lifestyle” or the “LGBT lifestyle.” This is where a lot of meanings come but with different terms or phrases. What are the interpretations of this in general?

Burge: There is a clear delineation in even the thinking about homosexuality. Evangelicals say that one sin is created evil for another. No one sin is worse than another sin. When they talk about homosexuality, there are homosexual thoughts and homosexual actions.

I think a lot of Evangelicals have come down on the side of “you might have homosexual proclivities. But if you live a celibate lifestyle, don’t act on it, then you aren’t sinning.” However, what is interesting, Evangelicals will also say, ‘If you have lustful thoughts for someone who is not your partner, then you have sinned.

It is a grey area, where they don’t know what to do with homosexuality. A lot of Evangelicals think homosexuality is a sinful thought pattern like alcoholism or something like that. You can work your way through it. Your brain has been deluded with sin.

That’s what make you attracted to someone with the same sex as you. If you turn yourself over to Jesus, then those thoughts will go away. You will return to right thinking, which is heterosexual thoughts and activity.

Evangelicals have said, “If you have homosexual thoughts or feel as if that’s the lifestyle that you want to live, if you don’t act on that, then you can still be a member of one of those churches because you have never done anything that is sinful.”

It is a weird way to get around the issue, but it is where a lot of the Evangelicals get down on this issue now.

Jacobsen: If American religion was 200 people, you have some big categories with Protestants and then Nothing in Particular, then Catholics, atheists, agnostics, etc. If we look at some of the other data around forms of bigotry and hate, the three that came to mind when I looked at Statistics Canada.

There was a rise what has been termed Islamophobia or anti-Muslim sentiment, anti-Semitism, and anti-Catholic prejudice. Those are the three big ones. What are the rises and falls of this in American society? Who is experiencing better in the recent history of the United States? Which ones are experiencing things worse in terms of the ways those trend lines are going?

Burge: So, anti-Catholic sentiment, especially in America, used to be higher 30 or 40 years ago compared to day. There is a lot of anti-Catholic sentiment in America going back to immigration. 100 years ago in America, Italians and Irish people came to America. They were Catholic. America was largely a Protestant country at the time.

It was like, ‘If you are going to come to America, you need to assimilate to our religion. We are Protestant.’ So, the Catholic piece was tied into the immigrant piece. They were anti-Catholic, but anti-‘Other,’ where the ‘Other’ is “Catholic.”

Post-Vatican II, there is a weird détente. For a long time, Protestants in America had an enemy, Catholics. They were outsiders. Then the next 20 or 25 years, the enemy has become Islam. Now, Protestants and Catholics look at each other saying, ‘We are a lot closer. Islam is the real enemy.” We are one team now.

The ‘Other’ is not Catholics, but Muslims now. Like I said, in Vatican II, they said Protestants are not sinners. They get into heaven just like we will, “You’re okay. We’re okay.” Even though, many Protestants don’t like the Pope in theology.

Sociologically, they see Catholics as distant cousins who are still part of the team. The enemy is Muslims. We are seeing a rise in anti-Catholic sentiment, but a rise in anti-Muslim sentiment. But I think is actually waning in America over the last couple of years because 9/11 has faded and the same with Iraq and Afghanistan, but it still doesn’t have the same fevered pitch as before.

I think it is waning as well. The group Americans don’t like the most is atheists, even Democrats.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Burge: People are amazed by that. I ask, “Why don’t more Americans like atheists?” Honestly, Democrats don’t like atheists ether. It is not faith versus no faith. It is not a palatable thing to be in America today.

Jacobsen: What about Independents?

Burge: Independents are weird. They hate everybody.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Burge: They don’t even wear masks now. They’re weird. They are disconnected from society or people who are really weird. When I look at the thermometer score – 1 to 100, 1 being cold, 100 being hot, atheists score amongst Evangelicals score below 30.

For Catholics, they score 42 for Democratic Catholics and 33 for Republican Catholics. Here is what is even more fascinating, amongst the religiously unaffiliated, atheists score a 54 among Democrat Nones and a 45 among Republican Nones.

So, there’s not even a warm feeling there among Nones towards atheists. So, they are a very disliked group.

Jacobsen: What is the source or set of sources for this “very disliked group”? Why do Americans dislike atheists or hate them?

Burge: Because America is inherently a Christian country. Okay, so, there is this thing call Civic Religion in America. This has a long history in America and in social science. It is the idea that the flag is sacred. Arlington Cemetery is a place of reverence.

Going to the Lincoln Memorial and the Washington Monument is like walking in a sacred space, it is almost like a religious site. American national identity is deeply intertwined with American religious identity.

The default in America is “You are a Christian.” Every president that we have had, at least as far as we can tell, has aligned himself with American Christianity. It is how we see ourselves, even amongst the Nones. They still defer to the idea of Christianity as the default, right or wrong.

I think a lot of it is tied up in this idea of civic religion. We say, ‘God help America. So help me God.” There are people who swear on the Bible who don’t even believe in the Bible. Atheists don’t. They reject all of that stuff. It is tough.

They might not be devoutly Christian themselves. “I don’t hate Christianity. You hate it.” I think that’s what that is about.

Jacobsen: You commented on Andrew Sullivan who is a prominent commentator in American life. He has done the rounds of various media. He was noting, ‘You can’t be a Christian and an atheist at the same time. Black Lives Matter defines itself as atheist and neo-Marxist. Fundamentally incompatible worldviews.’

You replied with a contextualization of the interesting phenomenon among self-identification and then some of the apparent conflicts in the content, typically, associated with the identification. What was the response? I think was an interesting part of the research by you.

Burge: Most people don’t think as much as I do or like I think about it. They think about religion as what you believe in your head. I don’t think that’s how religion works at all. I think the beliefs in your head are downstream from other stuff. They are called the Three Bs. Religion is behaviour, belief, and belonging.

Behaviour is going to church, praying, giving a tithing or offering, or a religious activity. That’s behaviour. Belief is “Do you believe in Jesus?”, “Do you believe in the Virgin Mary?”, “Do you believe in thePope?”, “Do you believe in Allah?”, “Do you believe the Bible is literally true?”. Those are belief measures.

I think the last is most important called belonging or affiliation. It is on a survey when I ask, “What is your present religion if any?” You saying that you are Catholic, Protestant, Buddhist, atheist, etc. It is a meaningful statement, to me, as a social scientist.

Because what it says, ‘I am publicly declaring on this survey that those people who I am associating with are people like me.’ For instance, I wrote a post two or three months ago. People always give me a hard time on Twitter, “How can you be an Evangelical that never goes to church?”

I showed that Evangelicals that never go to church are more conservative than Catholics who never go to church. By casting your lot with Evangelicals on a survey, it says you affiliate with them for good or for ill.

Evangelicals have gotten more rightwing and caught more flack from the American public and the general public. It is to say, ‘I still see the world like that. Even though, I don’t think Jesus is the Son of God and don’t go to church. I still cast my vote with those people over there.’

To me, religion is more about how you orient yourself in social space. To me, those are material that you still choose to be Evangelical. It tells me something about you as a person. It tells me you’re different than a Catholic who doesn’t believe in the Bible and doesn’t go to church.

Belonging is first and the others are below it. Going to church, it makes you more of that thing. So, if you are part of a liberal denomination and go to church more often, it should make you more liberal; if you are part of a conservative denomination and go to church often, it should make you more conservative.

But you are still casting your line, your vote. That’s how I think about religion as behaviour, belief, and belonging, and belonging is most important by a long shot.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Professor Burge.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Jon 23: Magical Thinking By No Name

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/04/21

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New YorkHere we talk about magical thinking.

*Interview conducted on October 5, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, what is magical thinking? And how does this apply to advanced industrial societies, with highly educated people in various parts of the society still extant? It’s just there. It is present. It affects everyone’s lives. In fact, it affects policymaking, and politics all the time in the United States, far more often than a lot of the other advanced industrial economies.

Jonathan Engel: Well, I think it’s interesting because it came up. I was speaking with some fellow humanists recently, and that thing came up in a tangential way, but it was the heart of the matter. We were talking about Donald Trump’s COVID diagnosis, whether or not it’s okay. How should a humanist feel about this, and talk about this?

With regard to schadenfreude, the taking pleasure in the misfortune of others. Because if there was anybody who deserves it, it’s him. We’re talking about 210,000 Americans dead. And some of these people were real heroes. People who went to work in hospitals. They were risking their lives. And they died just trying to save others.

And Trump has not shed a single tear for any of them. But on the other hand, we humanists do believe, generally speaking, that we should endeavour to enhance human happiness and decrease human suffering. We feel this way about trust. So, is it okay to feel glad, and take some pleasure out of the fact that this S.O.B. is getting sick?

And I can tell you that yesterday’s New York Times; there were op-eds by Frank Bruni and Nicholas Kristof. In which both of them admonished Liberals, “Do not take pleasure in this, and you’re not supposed to.” Also, you hear Nancy Pelosi, the Speaker of the House, and all sorts of democratic politicians, e.g., Joe Biden, of course, saying that they’re praying for Trump.

They never wanted this to happen to him. They’re praying for him. Although I think they’re politicians, some of that might just be for public consumption, in order to contrast themselves with Trump’s callousness towards people who have been sick and might get sick.

Not to mention the fact that he’s caused some people to get sick. Almost certainly, at the Democratic Convention this year, there was a woman who spoke whose father died of COVID. She said the only pre-existing condition my father had was that he believed Donald Trump. So, if this causes Trump to change his ways, or maybe, hopefully, but that’s impossible. But some Trump supporters need to possibly take this more seriously and wear a mask, etc. You could look at it as a positive that way. So, it’s okay. You’re excusing yourself from those feelings of: this is a good thing – because you rationalize it.

Well, it has good practical effects. Even though, I shouldn’t be engaging in this kind of thinking, but I think you don’t have to get to the heart of the matter, what you were talking about; that this is magical thinking. ,

The idea that somehow, if I say, “I’m glad you got COVID,” or, “I hope he gets COVID,” and then he does. “Oh, that’s terrible” What do you mean “might be glad” or ‘hoping he gets it’? It has nothing to do with what actually is going to happen any more than the prayers of Nancy Pelosi or Joe Biden are going to make it well.

You’re right to phrase it that way. It comes to magical thinking. That’s something that seems to be a large part of American society, even for people who aren’t religious. Some don’t even identify with the religion.

There’s a part of the magical thinking. They’re very hesitant to give it up. And you see it here with the idea that somehow you shouldn’t take pleasure and say, “Oh, if you’re happy because he gets COVID, then you might get COVID.” Well, I might get COVID anyway.

But what the hell has it got to do with me being happy that he got it? And the answer is, of course, “Nothing.” I think it’s the people who don’t necessarily believe in a personal God, think there’s some force in the universe that punishes you for bad things.

I think it helps people make sense of the universe that punishes you for thinking bad things. Not just necessarily doing them, but thinking what would the bad things be, or what would be considered bad things. That somehow, you’ll get punished for it.

If you hope that Trump gets COVID, and then he does; you’re in trouble. Now, the cosmic universe, karma, or whatever you want to call it. It may punish you for feeling that way, by giving you COVID. Let’s face it, Trump didn’t get COVID because he’s acted like a bastard.

In terms of what he’s done, the lack of empathy for anybody else who’s suffering, or any of that kind of thing. He got COVID because he acted like a jerk. He acted like a moron. He wouldn’t wear a mask. They wouldn’t take the basic precautions that need to be taken. That’s why he got COVID.

Jacobsen: Do you think over the last four years, the United States has decreased in its level of critical thinking? Or the current administration’s approach to press, media, and public relations has created an environment more conducive to bringing out that which was already there?

Namely, the lack of a critical thinking culture, and a widespread series of poor critical thinking subcultures. For example, Conspiracy Theorists, Cults, QAnon, Religious Fundamentalism, various forms of anti-science, and so on?

Engel: I think that’s an interesting question. And I’ve been thinking about that a lot, wondering when the United States comes out of this, will we realize that the scientific method is the way for us to discover the truth about our world.

On the critical thinking, and critical reasoning part, I don’t remember. A number of weeks ago, I read an essay by a professor at Harvard law school who was bemoaning the fact that they teach critical reasoning in law school. That’s a lot of what they teach. But he was saying in his essay that we should be teaching in grade school, and high school.

Because people don’t have it. So, what happens when we come out of this? And to tell you the truth, I’m a little down on human nature. Because you see things happening. I don’t know. I just don’t see that people are getting it that much.

I’m hopeful. I, certainly, am hope that people would look, and I think there’s a chance that, at least, some people would realize, “Wow, what the scientists told us turned out to be true. And they were basing it on their research and their science. And what the preachers, politicians were telling us, ‘Oh, it will magically disappear by Easter,’ which is a great date for it to disappear. Don’t you think? That was Trump. They were wrong. And so, he said, ‘Well, listen, maybe, we need to look at things critically. Maybe, we need to trust science. And that’s the way for us to learn about ourselves, about our planet and our environment rather than engaging in wishful or magical thinking. That things are controlled by some strange forces that we can’t see.’

I hope so, but I don’t know. The history in this country, isn’t great on that. It’s a very religious country. Which again, I swear, I think this is where a lot of this comes from. Where do people learn that it’s a positive character trait to believe in things for which there is no evidence?

Of course, in Church, in Mosque, and in Synagogue, that’s where they learned that. And they learned it from a very young age. And they see it reinforced all through their lives, and breaking through that is a hard task. I have no illusions about how difficult it is.

Jacobsen: In particular, I would take this as a personal moral stance or obligation. Because I don’t consider organizational humanism the be-all and end-all. I consider humanism at the root about an individual recognition of science, human rights, and democracy in many ways, along some other values.

Where the individual organizations devoted to humanism or humanistic orientations, by and large, they exist for those individuals who find that recognition in part or in whole, and then join those organizations as members of staff, as boards, as executive directors.

So in terms of combating these forms of magical thinking by no name, we can look to historical examples of people who aren’t necessarily acknowledged as much by ordinary humanists.

Those without stature, those without prominent standing or authority within the community. So, someone like Martin Gardner had a vast influence on the culture of critical thinking, and skepticism in the United States without necessarily going by such a name.

In the same way, Bill Nye does a similar task, but goes by that title. In fact, he’s derided. I think by Ken Ham as Bill Nye the Humanist Guy with a sneer.

Engel: If you think he gets a bad wrap by referring to himself as humanist, try referring to yourself as an atheist.

Jacobsen: Yes, exactly, that’s right. In fact, I had talked to professor Burge in one recent interview session. And he noted Democrats, Republicans, and Independents of the United States all view Atheists as among the people they’re coldest to – and many think this is only among Republicans, but this is among all major political party identifications in the United States.

All three view Atheists as among the lowest, we’re talking in the 30% to 40% range of likeability. People are very cold towards atheists, self-identified atheists in the United States. It’s probably similar on a values variable to the magical thinking variable, where individuals have the atheist identification.

They are seen as not having a moral center. Because morality is implicitly connected to a religious identification or religious sensibility in the United States. If there is a morality, there must be a morality giver.

Similarly with magical thinking, all of this kind of karma, horoscopes and prayer, stuff. People still believe in these things without giving a proper name to them in the United States. And it’s just infused in the culture, and people don’t question things as much anymore. I think it leads to not even be able to label things.

Engel: Yes, I think you’re right. And I think that’s where it comes in. We were talking about people who have called themselves spiritual, but not religious. They see these religious hypocrites all the time. What’s his name, the guy Liberty University?

Jacobsen: Jerry Falwell Jr.

Engel: They see these people who are trying to themselves be reasonably ethical people. And they are telling a congregation of poor people, send me lots of money, and that’s how you’ll make money too. And you’ll get into heaven, and then I’ll have a private plane. They see that kind of thing. They say wow, that’s terrible. I can’t come against that. If that is what religious is, I’m not religious, I’m not religious then.

But the pull of the magical thinking, the pull of the groups thing, when it comes to that way. That will, of course. When you say a prayer for people who are sick, or something like that, it’s a decent thing to do. That pull is very strong.

I think people don’t even want to put their critical analysis to this. I think people who are religious certainly don’t want to. I think even the people, again, who are not affiliated with any religion, but claim to be spiritual.

It’s their way of dipping a toe in the water without actually jumping in. Because it’s like, “Well, I don’t believe that, but I have to say something to make me sound not so bad.” The way atheists are looked at, the way atheists are thought about etc. It’s part of that.

Nobody wants to be looked down on, like the statistics you just cited. Nobody wants to be looked down on anywhere and things like that. So, you find the middle ground. But I think that has much more to do with our social structures, than it has to do with any critical thinking.

They’re not applying critical thinking to this. You have someone like that. You think me sitting in my room, hoping that Trump gets better, will mean that he increases his chances of getting better? I’m sitting in my room in New York City.

He’s sitting in his hospital in Washington, DC. Do you think the other way around? Do you think, “Man, I hope this bastard suffers,” is going to change what happens to him?

I think not so much; that they think the answer to that question is “Yes.” Is that more to the point? I think they don’t want to even consider that question. Because it brings out certain truths, which can be frightening. If you think that, within the social structure of this country, which tends to be very religious.

“I can’t possibly believe in a lot of this nonsense. But if I give it up all the way, it’s not because intellectually. I can’t give it up all the way. It’s because I’ve been so socialized to believe that’s a positive thing. It’s just uncomfortable to consider it. So, I’ll put it that way and put it to bed that way, put it to rest that way saying, ‘Well, I’m not religious. I don’t belong to a religion or anything, but I am spiritual.’”

And that is the social comfort zone without the necessity of doing real rational analysis. That’s a different term. A figure of speech, we all say stuff like that. Although, I tend to substitute “Zeus” for “God.”

Hey, he’s a guy. Like, there’s an old saying, when someone says something that they hope happens. They used to say, “From your mouth to God’s ears.” I would more likely say, “From your mouth to Zeus’s ears. And I don’t believe he is up there listening.”

But I wonder, what do people think of their religion, especially in this country? What do they think of it as? And one of the things that I think about, we’re now into October and pretty soon the Christmas movies are going to start coming out. Not that long from now, but when you look at these movies, the companies churn out thousands of them. And they roll the same movie.

Like charging career woman in the big city, has to go to her hometown to help out her father’s store, which looks like it may go under, when she’s there, she runs into her old high school flame who was a widower with two or three children.

And she realizes, “Oh, but the small-town things are best, it takes place around Christmas. And trees, and the lights, and the snow falling.” But what? it doesn’t have anything to do with Jesus, or religion or anything else like that.

And that’s what people want you to think about. What are the most popular Christmas movies? Movies like a Miracle on 34th Street, It’s a Wonderful Life. Jesus will make no appearance. In fact, TV channels run the Jesus movies like King of Kings and things like that on Christmas day itself, because Christmas day itself was the day when nobody’s watching.

And where they don’t need advertisers all that much because everybody’s already bought their Christmas stuff. So, it’s interesting. It’s an interesting study of religion, because I think what most people want are what I want. Yes, there are the super, super religious people.

There are ultra-Orthodox Jews who tried to live their best, as if it’s the 14th century. Something for some reason that I can’t figure out. But for a lot of people in this country, they just want to have that karmic glow to them.

Without wanting to delve into the religious part. What do people like about Christmas? And what they like is the presents, and Santa Claus, and the trees, and the lights, and the big meal, that’s what they like about it. A feeling of goodwill, maybe once in a while, between people, as if you have to believe in the supernatural to feel goodwill towards fellow people.

But when it could be actually religious with the part of ‘meeting Jesus,’ you mean dragging that cross around and stuff? Oh, that’s a bummer. That’s a downer. I don’t want that.

Jacobsen: Okay, Jon, thank you so much.

Engel: Take care, Scott. I will see you next week.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Professor Burge 8: Religious Identity and Political Warmth (or Lack Thereof)

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/04/19

Professor Ryan Burge‘s website states: “I am an Assistant Professor of Political Science as well as the Graduate Coordinator at Eastern Illinois University. I teach in a variety of areas, including American institutions, political behavior, and research methods. My research focuses largely on the intersection between religiosity and political behavior (especially in the American context). Previously, I have completed an appointment as a post doctoral research fellow at the Paul Simon Public Policy Institute in Carbondale, Illinois. While there I was an adviser on issues of survey methodology and polling, as well as providing data collection and analysis.

I have published over a dozen articles in a number of well regarded peer reviewed journals including Politics & Religion, the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, the Review of Religious Research, the Journal of Religious Leadership, RepresentationPoliticsGroupsand Identities, the Journal of Communication and Religion, the Journal of Religion, Media and Digital Culture and the Social Science Computer Review. 

In addition, my research has been covered in a variety of media outlets including The New York Times, The Washington Post, CNN, NBC, Vox, 538, BuzzFeed News, Al-Jazeera, Christianity Today, Religion News Service, The Daily Mail, Deseret News, World Magazine, Relevant, and C-SPAN. I am the co-founder and frequent contributor to Religion in Public, a forum for scholars of religion and politics to make their work accessible to a more general audience.

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about attitudes, politics, and religion.

*Interview conducted on September 28, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: With regards to American Muslim identity in the United States, what are identities cross-linked between American Muslim identity and political identity in regard to the United States?

Professor Ryan Burge: With Muslims, first, it is important. They are not a large portion of the United States. They are in the media a lot. A lot of stories about them, especially in the post-9/11 world.

The reality, they are less than 1% of the population. I don’t see a lot of evidence of a lot of growth. They are geographically located in certain places in the United States like Dearborn, Michigan. They have a huge Muslim population, but they are only 3% of the population of Michigan as a whole.

So, it doesn’t matter as a whole for the state. Interestingly enough, 80%+ of them voted for Hillary Clinton. They are a strong Democrat backing coalition. You would think this translate into labels. Muslims don’t get into labelling themselves liberals.

In fact, only about 30% of Muslims identify as liberal and 50% identify as independents. All independent liberals voted for Clinton, but they don’t see themselves liberals. They are strong Democrats, but not strong liberals. They are a sold blue vote, but are not far left on policy.

Jacobsen: This is an interesting part of the research. So, quoting you, “If transgender is subbed for abortion, the gap narrows quite a bit,” n terms of Trump approval among white Evangelical Republicans. Can you break that down for me?

Burge: I hear people say, “White Evangelicals vote for Republicans largely because of abortion and hold their nose, and aren’t for all the other policies of the Republican Party.” I have been toying with the idea that it isn’t abortion. Maybe, it is immigration.

That is one that comes to mind because Trump brought immigration to the front of what the Republican Party is about. So, I published a bunch of stuff recently showing that an Evangelical who disagrees with Trump on abortion, but agrees with him on immigration, has a much higher approval rating than the opposite.

So, abortion is doing less work there than immigration is. I had a question about transgender. Do you agree or disagree? ‘There is two genders: only male or female?’ If you take abortion out and put transgenderism in, then the gap between immigration and transgender is smaller than the gap between immigration and abortion.

I think abortion is less important than the views on transgenderism among Evangelicals, which shows you where it lands in the pecking order. It is a social issue, but it is not nearly as important as other issues in the Republican constellation of issues.

I think we need to stop talking about abortion as Evangelicals’ single issue vote. It is not about abortion. It is about the whole suite of Republican ideas and abortion as one of them. They’d still vote for Republicans if they were more moderate on abortion.

Jacobsen: This is a less nuanced question. Which has an amusing angle on it, you called it a ‘weird little nugget,’ where 66% of Evangelicals or Catholics who tend to vote for Biden think that Jesus would vote for Biden.

Only 53% of Trump supporters thought Jesus would vote for Trump. What is going on?

Burge: [Laughing] I don’t know. I found this nugget in a private advocacy group. I love the idea. Am I voting for what the Bible tells me to vote for or for what my politics is telling me to vote for? It is figuring out how that matrix of decision-making happens. Does politics come first or religion come first?

It adds a weird angle. You’d think a lot of Evangelicals would say, “I would vote for Trump. Jesus would vote for Trump. I want to vote for who Jesus would vote for.” It is clear. That’s not true. Half of people who are going to vote for Trump go, “The Jesus of my religion wouldn’t vote for Trump. I will vote for Trump anyway.”

It is not “the Bible tells me who to vote for.” It is “my party tells me who to vote for and I justify it later.” So, I think it’s really an indictment of what American religion has become, especially American conservative religion.

They don’t think Jesus would vote for who they’d vote for. But they will still vote for him anyway, because it is not really about Jesus at this point anyway.

Jacobsen: There’s so much interesting research. Some really crucial points of contact in the United States. These are reiterations of things we’ve discussed in other sessions. When I look at some of the identifications of how people look at sex and gender issues, something that you did not expect was that transgender identities would have less support from older Evangelicals.

Yet, 65% of 40-year-olds think there are only two genders, but drops to 60% among 70-year-olds. My first question: Is that statistically significant? That 5% or just within the margin of error.

Burge: It is interesting. That’s a huge sample. It’s like 300,000 people. So, margins there are very small. I don’t know if it is substantively significant. The thing that jumps out to me. The expectation is agreement with the statement would happen with older and older people.

I think that’s the assumption we all have. The oldest Americans are, typically, the most conservative, especially on gay marriage, abortion, and transgenderism. The fact they don’t go up from a 40-year-old. It is something interesting about old people.

If you look at older people, they tend to moderate, become more soft, less dogmatic, even on abortion. Older people are not more opposed to abortion than young people. At 40-year-olds, you’re still thinking about it because you might still get pregnant. At 70, you’re more in a live-and-let-live mentality.

I think transgenderism is more current and gay marriage is more 15 years ago when the public was more divided. We are still in the moment around 2004/06 when big swathes of America really have conservative views about transgenderism like they did about gay marriage.

I am curious, in the next 15 or 20 years, if this becomes an issue, or if this moves to the progressive side, or if this moves to the abortion side and has a lot of stability over a long period of time. Transgenderism follow the track of “I’m not changing my mind. I don’t care what happens…” It is too early to know, to test that.

Jacobsen: This is interesting as a piece of research. 2/3rds of Jews know John Roberts is the Supreme Court Chief Justice. ½ atheists and 40% of Mormons, now, these are quite different numbers with Evangelical Christian, non-Evangelical Christian at the lowest.

Why are we seeing these differences in knowledge about the political-legal landscape of the United States?

Burge: It is, basically, a proxy for education. Political knowledge questions are always fun. You can see who pays attention and who doesn’t. You can ask, ‘How much attention do you pay attention to politics?’ There’s not a whole lot.

But down to brass tax, you have to ask substantive questions. A lot of people get them wrong. Jewish people have very high levels of education. That’s part of their culture. We know almost half of atheists have a 4-year college degree.

People with 4-year college degrees are atheists. It is noteworthy people continue to exist and do not have a basic knowledge of American politics. They don’t know how long a Senate term is, which is a basic civics question.

Only 4 religious groups actually got more than half of the people in those groups getting it right, which means more than half of the people in 12 groups got it wrong. It is amazing how democracy can function with so many people voting and not knowing how it functions and voting every 4 years.

Jacobsen: Approximately 25% of Protestants of the Greatest Generation consider their church non-denominational, 30% among Boom, 60% among Millennials, 60% among Gen Z. So, why the explosion of non-denominational churches?

Burge: My co-author and I wrote a book about the rise of non-denominational Christianity and the future of religion. We have come down to the idea of Americans of rejecting labels and institutions more and more, especially when the institutions are far away from them.

We see these non-denominational churches started by a local pastor without much help. They are all local. The pastor grew up in that community. Most of the people in that church are from that community rot hat town. They grow well because they don’t have all the baggage that Southern Baptists, Methodists, or Presbyterians have had for years.

They can start from ground zero without the history that ties them down. They have the new, shiny factor of growth feeds growth. More people talk about it, come to it. Growth means growth means growth. The churches have gone out of their way to not be controversial and not have this long history on race issues, gender issues, and sexuality.

You avoid all that stuff. People come to them as almost a blank slate. They have sights, sounds, and a place where other people go to. I think American Protestant Christian will have over half of the people who are Protestant will be non-denominational in the future.

Most Protestants will decline, even the Southern Baptist Convention has had a decade of decline in size – even more relative to the size of the population. When they’re declining, everyone is. The United Methodists, the Episcopalians are declining.

When we see all these declining, and when we see the Evangelicals not declining, it is because a lot of them have shifted from being denominational to non-denominational. I think that’s what a lot of American Christianity is beginning to look like.

Jacobsen: So, the thermometer score of various groups like party identifications. “Atheists,” “Congress,” “federal government,” “Tea Party,” “Christian fundamentalists,” “feminists,” these labels tend to rate very low on metrics of party identification, Democrat, Republican, Independent.

Why are these related to being significantly less liked among different political groups in the United States?

Burge: You would think Republicans wouldn’t like atheists because Republicans are the party of white Christians and white Christians don’t like atheists. Atheists are, obviously, antagonistic towards that. But Democrats don’t like atheists that much.

On a scale of 1 to 100, Democrats rate atheists at 41. It is the second lowest. The only group lower were the Tea Party at 30. So, 20 points lower than unions. Christians among Democrats rank 70.5 and atheists rank 41.4. That’s about 30 points.

It shows you how American, even though we have such a rising group of religiously unaffiliated; we still have a civic religion in America. That’s religion is Christianity. Being an atheist, it is being out of step with what most Americans think American should be about.

Even though, they don’t go to church and couldn’t care less about church. They think you need to be Christian to be a good person. This is one more piece of good evidence: Atheists are discriminated against as much as, if not more than, any other religious group in America because they are ut of step with what it means to be a “Real American.”

Jacobsen: An addendum: this is regardless of political label.

Burge: Yes, even if you look at Independents, it is 40 out of 100. Republicans, it is 33, which is slightly above the federal government and slightly above liberals. Muslims are 37 rather than 33 (atheists). So, Republicans like Muslims more than they like atheists, which tells you a lot.

Jacobsen: [Laughing] I wish we could talk some more. Ryan, Professor Burge, thank you for your time.

Burge: Thank you, Scott, I appreciate it.  

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Jon 22: Justice for All

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/04/17

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New YorkHere we talk about the law.

*Interview conducted on August 31, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Okay, so, today, we’re back with another wonderful Ask Jon. We’re going to talk about the law. Also, speaking of the law, you ever hear the joke; it’s a line that goes, “If in-laws are outlawed, only outlaws will have in-laws!”

Engel: [Laughing] No, that’s the first time for me.

Jacobsen: Here goes another one. “How many Freemasons does it take to plug in a light bulb? That’s a craft secret.”

Engel: [Laughing].

Jacobsen: Anyhow. Okay, so, the law. You are a trained Lawyer, a juris doctor. As has been noted before, but for those who are just tuning in, this is important. So what have been some interesting issues, if not concerning issues, arising in the United States, based on the recent Republican National Convention?

Last week, you critiqued the Democratic National Convention based on the fact that faith became a major part of it. When in particular, the Nones are a growing group of the Democratic Party, as opposed to the Republican Party. So what happened at the Republican National Convention? How does this contrast to the Democratic National Convention?

Engel: Well, the Republican National Convention reminded me why I’m a Democrat. Despite some misgivings, just as a quick aside, it was interesting. I was on a call yesterday, in Zoom meeting, with a bunch of people from my organization, the Secular Humanist Society of New York.

And a lot of them were saying, “John, don’t say that. Don’t criticize the Democrats, because if they don’t win, this country is in some huge trouble.” And I said, “Listen, you’re right. I’m just talking to you guys.” And I certainly support the Democratic ticket in a lot of ways. And I agree with them on much of the Democratic ticket. I was just complaining, grousing a bit, that they take secular votes for granted, which they do.

But I understand that the need to win after looking at the Republican coronation or whatever the hell you want to call it. We have a law here in the United States, which is called the Hatch Act. And what the law says, it is illegal, criminal, for a government employer, Federal Government Employee to use their position for political gain.

And the Republican convention being held at the White House was, the whole thing was one big violation of the Hatch Act. And Mark Meadows, Trump’s Chief of Staff was asked about that, “Hey, didn’t that violate the Hatch Act?” His response was ‘nobody cares. Nobody outside the beltway cares,’ is what he said. So, wait a minute.

We’re supposed to have a rule of what here. What is he saying? When he says, ‘Nobody cares,’ what he means is ‘no Republicans care.’ I’ll get a little bit more back in a minute. What happened to the bullet point?

It’s a law. You’re not supposed to say, “Well, on our side, we don’t care about that law in this particular instance. And so, therefore, we’re not going to enforce it.” I mean, that’s astonishing that the President’s Chief of Staff was saying that. It wasn’t any kind of defense that “we didn’t break the law” or anything like that.

It wasn’t any kind of defense or saying, “Well, no, no, technically, that wasn’t the violation of the Hatch Act because it was nothing like that.” It was just ‘who cares?’ The kicks that the rule of law has taken throughout this regime have been very serious. And again, what my thinking is that as a lawyer is that, the rule of law is pretty much everything.

You have to be able to enforce the law in a neutral tribunal. And if you don’t have that, everything else you have is meaningless. I look at countries that in recent years have turned toward authoritarianism. Countries like Hungary and the Philippines. These countries, they don’t get rid of their constitution.

They don’t get rid of their courts. They don’t get rid of their elections. They just rig everything so that they always win. The guy in Belarus who now has got people for weeks in the streets demanding he leave. He said he won 80% of the vote. Because if you control the testing of the votes and it’s not free and open, then it doesn’t matter what happens in the election. You win. And so, what happens if your opponent then goes to court to say, “Hey, wait a second”?

The constitution of Belarus says that they have free and fair elections. And this guy just stole it. Well, if the courts are controlled by the ruler and by the ruling party, then you can have all the niceties in the constitution you want. But if the court says, “Go away, no, we rule against you,” for no particular reason, it doesn’t matter. “Just go away. We rule against you.” Then you don’t have anything. You don’t have anything to stand on. Did you know that Americans are somewhat arrogant? Are you aware of that, Scott?

Jacobsen: [Laughing] No, I never heard of this in my entire time living North of the border. I swear, even during the times of the border as the Orange Line.

Engel: [Laughing] Yes. Well, Americans with, “Oh, of course, we can have it here.” But I can tell you. As a student, I have a juris doctor, a law degree, that’s my graduate degree, but my undergraduate degree was 20th century European history.

And I can tell you a lot of Germans, a lot of German Jews and German liberals. This is a civilized country; this can’t happen here. One of the great societies who has these great thinkers. We’re the land of Beethoven. It can’t happen here. And it did. One of the things that scared me a lot over the weekend, which were a number of things, is that I read a book review in the New York Times, it was a review of a book.

The review was by Jennifer Szalai, “In the Second Volume of ‘Hitler,’ How a Dictator Invited His Own Downfall,” as the book was about Hitler’s downfall 1939 to 1945. Now the review mentions nothing. I read the whole review. There’s nothing in it about contemporary times, no allusions, no references to contemporary times.

And yet I pulled out a whole bunch of quotes from the review that are so resonant about what’s happening with Trump in the United States today. That it’s terrifying. So, between that and Trump saying, ‘Let’s have a civil war here.’

Once his powerful military troops go into places where there is protest and civic unrest to prevent violence, there were so many echoes of Nazi Germany. I’m not saying that it’s going to be a direct parallel.

If I knew that there was going to be a direct parallel, I’d be on my way up to your small town right now. But it is very, very frightening. And again, maybe, this is my legal training, but, to me, it’s all about the rule of law. A real independent judiciary that we’re losing right now.

Especially with William Barr in charge of the Justice Department. You would think, “Yes, Mark Meadows, the Chief of Staff, can say, ‘Who cares? Nobody outside the beltway cares that we violated the Hatch Act.’” But you would think that the Department of Justice would care.

But Bill Barr is in charge of the Department of Justice and he has shown himself to be simply a Trump acolyte. And so, what’s going to happen? Nothing. So, you have this great law on the book, the Hatch Act. It’s a really wonderful law. And it’s broken.

B if nobody will enforce it, if the people who are in charge of the law say, “We’re not going to enforce it, because that is a benefit to our side.” You’re on a slope down to somewhere that you really do not want to go.

Jacobsen: What are other legal mechanisms for the separation of religion and government in the United States being violated?

Engel: Well, basically, it’s the courts. That’s how you know when there’s a violation of the constitution. That’s how you enforce it. Listen, in 1958, that was the year I was born. But my older brother was seven years older than me. He was in school. And the local school district instituted a prayer that said, “Okay, every morning we’re going to start with this prayer.”

And my brother came home one day, told my father about it. And Mike, we had next door neighbors who were upset about it, too. And so, my father and our next-door neighbors, and some other neighbors started a lawsuit. And it went all the way to the United States Supreme Court. And the United States Supreme Court held in 1962 that organized prayers in public schools are a violation of the constitution.

And the name of the case was Engel v. Vitale, 370 U.S. 421 (1962). So, what do you do? You go to court. That’s how you enforce the constitution. That’s how you enforce the constitutional separation of church and state. It’s through the courts, but you have to trust that the courts are neutral arbiters of the law.

And right now, it’s questionable. I would say that we’re moving into waters where that sort of thing becomes… it’s work. “What is the deal the leader wants?” as opposed to “What does the law say?” And once you get into that area, then you’re marching towards a place that you don’t want to go.

Jacobsen: What groups tend to become early victims of this violation in which some can see reflection in the mandates as interpreted of the largest religious segments of the country?

Engel: Well, that’s an interesting question. Because you never know, and that’s why you want to enforce civil rights, and our bill of rights, and our constitution for everyone. Martin Luther King very famously said, “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.” Because you never know which group, whose ox is going to be gored.

I said that about Michigan. I forget exactly where in Michigan, but there are parts of Michigan that have had the Islamic representation. There are a lot of people who are Muslim. You imagine them saying, “Oh, we want to put prayer back in school.”

We want to get rid of Engel v. Vitale. We’ve been defending Engel v. Vitale since 1962. Prayer in school and there’ll be non-sectarianism; and it’ll be fine. Could imagine what these people would say? If their little Christian child went to school, and the teacher said, “Okay, children, here are your prayer mats. Get down on it, we all going to face East toward Mecca, get down on your knees, bend your head to the floor and recite this non-sectarian prayer.” And Christian parents would go, “No way.”

They always think that when they say, “Oh, religion is okay in the public sphere, and in government, etc.” They always think it’s going to be their religion, but you never know who it’s going to be.

Now, of course, the first people who usually are impacted are secularists. People who are atheists, who have no religion. Which is by the way, one of the fastest growing segments of the American public. Not that you would know it from popular culture or from our leaders, but it is.

Those are the first ones to usually feel the brunt of it. But it’s not always that. I tell you. When my father, neighbors, and my mother brought this lawsuit, there was a lot of anti-Semitic attacks on us. Because I grew up Jewish. A lot of the attacks were anti-Semitic in nature.

And culminated in my next-door neighbor, having a burning cross on his yard. So, I think that it so important for everyone to realize. You think it’s not going to be you. “Oh, well, I don’t mind, I’m Christian. I don’t care at all.”

It doesn’t really bother me to say prayers in school or something like that. But once you established that there is not a separation of church and state, which can’t be breached by anybody. You better watch out because you don’t know what you think. You think you’re always going to be the one in the majority, but it’s not the case.

Very interestingly, I think it was in 1785. James Madison wrote a well-known essay called “Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments.” And what it was, he was arguing against the tax that was proposed. That would benefit only the Anglican clergy.

And he said, ‘Once you say that, that’s the way you think it’s always going to be: You in the majority, but it’s not. Things change. And my fellow Anglicans, if you think that it’s always going to be us, next thing you know, there’s going to be an influx of anybody, Quakers or whatever.’

I think back in 1785; they probably weren’t thinking Muslims, the Jews, and Hindus. But it could be an influx of people, e.g., Methodists or Unitarians, etc. And all of a sudden, the money’s being used for their clergy. And your tax money is going to that clergy.

I said, “Hey, wait a minute, you can’t do that. But you already established that you could. And that again, brings me back to Martin Luther King, that “injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.” If you will allow this to go on, it’s going to hurt you, potentially… eventually. You don’t think it will. But once you establish: that’s okay to be done to somebody else. It will be okay to be done to you.

Jacobsen: Jon. Great note at the end. I’ll talk to you next week.

Engel: Okay. Sounds good, Scott.

Jacobsen: Okay. Take care.

Engel: Take care. Don’t work too hard. If you’re going to listen to me and keep your couch open.

Jacobsen: That’s right. Yeah. All right. Cheers.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Professor Burge 7: The Pandemicon, Pedagogy, and Politics

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/04/15

Professor Ryan Burge‘s website states: “I am an Assistant Professor of Political Science as well as the Graduate Coordinator at Eastern Illinois University. I teach in a variety of areas, including American institutions, political behavior, and research methods. My research focuses largely on the intersection between religiosity and political behavior (especially in the American context). Previously, I have completed an appointment as a post doctoral research fellow at the Paul Simon Public Policy Institute in Carbondale, Illinois. While there I was an adviser on issues of survey methodology and polling, as well as providing data collection and analysis.

I have published over a dozen articles in a number of well regarded peer reviewed journals including Politics & Religion, the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, the Review of Religious Research, the Journal of Religious Leadership, RepresentationPoliticsGroupsand Identities, the Journal of Communication and Religion, the Journal of Religion, Media and Digital Culture and the Social Science Computer Review. 

In addition, my research has been covered in a variety of media outlets including The New York Times, The Washington Post, CNN, NBC, Vox, 538, BuzzFeed News, Al-Jazeera, Christianity Today, Religion News Service, The Daily Mail, Deseret News, World Magazine, Relevant, and C-SPAN. I am the co-founder and frequent contributor to Religion in Public, a forum for scholars of religion and politics to make their work accessible to a more general audience.

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about coronavirus, religion, and politics.

*Interview conducted on August 17, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So well, let’s start with COVID. What are some of the cross-sections with this coronavirus, religion, and politics, in American life?

Professor Ryan Burge: What’s actually surprising to a lot of people in America is, if you look at social media, the assumption here is that Democrats are being a lot more compliant. Not going out in public, wearing masks, social distancing, all those kind of things.

And Republicans are just doing whatever the hell they want. Not following the rules. They’re actively flouting the rules, essentially. If you look at the data, especially on the issue of mask wearing, compliance has never been higher for both parties right now.

Democrats are in the mid-90s. And Republicans aren’t far behind that. They’re like 88 percent. So, the perception in the public of this resistance to mask-wearing, especially in the case of the loudest voices, are the minority voices. And the more moderate, sensible, practical, reasonable voices are the quietest voices because they don’t yell about it.

So what we’re seeing actually is that the public is there. They’re realizing that their behavior is actually having an impact on Covid cases. And in some cases, people are actually responding to that in acting in a more compliant way.

Obviously, that cuts across religion because Evangelicals are more likely to get their information about Covid from the Trump administration. They’re actually less likely to get information from places like the CDC and public health experts.

The Democrats are just the opposite of that. They write the Trump administration low in the list. And the group that they look to, most scientists at the CDC. So you can see that this partisan divide not just overemphasizes, but the partisan divide has probably killed some people in America.

The Republicans, especially see this as government control and government trying to run your life. And you’ve been sheep wearing a mask; and it’s all made up and Democrats are much more science based. And I would say that Democrats are much more fearful of Corona and Republicans are not fearful enough in a lot of ways.

Jacobsen: Now, what about some of the more recent research on race and religion in politics? Now, I know you’ve covered some of the aspects of the metric of racial resentment. What are some other ways in which one can cut up this idea? This categorization of race in regards to politics and religion.

Burge: So when we talk about Protestants in America, we actually divided Protestants into three separate groups. There are Evangelicals, which sort of everyone knows about. The most famous religious group in America, I think in a lot of ways. And then there’s your mainline Protestants and the mainline Protestants are almost always white.

But they are much more moderate politically. They’re sort of center politically just because of taxation and things like that, not because of social issues. So those are groups like United Methodists, Presbyterians, etc. Now, there’s a third group. But this is where it gets interesting, a race standpoint called black Protestants and that’s what we call them. That’s what one of the categories called. When I use that terminology a lot of people are like, “That’s racist.”

Like, “Why are you dividing up a group of people based on their race? When they look a lot like evangelical Protestants in terms of behavior?” And that’s absolutely true. If you look at things like church attendance, black Protestants attend church at basically the same level as the Evangelical Protestants do. Their view of the Bible is very similar to black Protestants and Evangelical Protestants.

But on issues of politics, they could not be more different. 80% of Evangelicals, white Evangelicals are Republicans – vote for Donald Trump. Bottom line: immigration, gun control, taxation and everything else.

And then your black Protestant. 90%of them voted for Barack Obama in 2012 and then for Hillary Clinton in 2016. So, the main cause was, actually, the Democratic group in America, large democratic group in America.

So they are very similar on the issue of religiosity, but they’re very different on measures of politics and political ideology. And a lot of people don’t understand that the black church is a completely different phenomenon than the white church in America, because during the Jim Crow South, during segregation, Reconstruction Era, a lot of communities in the South that were black. You did not have access to social clubs.

You couldn’t go out to local restaurants and hang out with your friends or the next company. You could go to the fraternal organizations. You got locked out. Labor unions often post their labor union in your area.

So if you were a politician and you wanted to run for office, especially if you are a black politician, they would like even go to get an audience with the black church because that’s where white people basically stayed away from – because they had their own churches.

So the black church is a completely different phenomenon in American life because the black church is not just a religious center. It’s a social center; it’s a political center; it’s an economic center.

The black church is a sort of gathering place for the entire black community. And so they’re sort of different institutions on the outside. They look very similar in terms of religious beliefs and behaviors. On the inside, it’s a lot different. And so, we talk about being Protestant, being white or black. It’s dramatically different based on the color of your skin.

Jacobsen: You’ve also been posting about educational levels and religion itself, self-identified religious identification. So with the non-religious identification, individuals who have no high school. Other individuals who have the highest levels of education with postgraduate. How does this split up along different religious categorizations and non-religious categorizations?

Burge: Yeah, so interestingly enough, the more education you have, the less likely you were to vote for Donald Trump in 2016. That’s the case for white people. For non-white people, there’s no relationship between an amount of education and a Trump vote. Whether you never graduate high school or you have got post graduate degree, you’re just as likely to vote for Trump at very low levels – by the way, 30% or less.

Now, for white people, there’s a strong negative relationship between education and a Trump vote. So, for example, a white Evangelical who did not graduate high school, 80% of those people voted for Trump in 2016. But a white Evangelical who has a graduate degree, only 55% voted for Trump in 2016.

So a huge difference. And that actually holds up for the larger question. Even if you hold up for atheists too, 35% of atheists who did not graduate high school voted for Trump in 2016. But if you look at atheists who have a graduate degree, it’s below 10%.

And that downward trend is consistent for every religious group, higher levels of education, lower likelihood of a Trump vote amongst white people, amongst people of color. There’s no difference based on education.

Jacobsen: Also, in terms of sexual orientation, people’s religious identification does influence the public statement of their sexual orientation, or these identifications attract certain kinds of sexual orientations. That doesn’t seem plausible, but it is an open category of possibility as a hypothesis. So what are the numbers on religious and non-religious identification and sexual orientation? What are some hypotheses as to why these numbers are coming out this way?

Burge: Yes. So actually, I’m going to make this graph to look at the sexual orientation of about 13 different religious groups. Because I was talking to a lot of people who work in atheist organizations in America. And I came to find out that a lot of them are not straight – LGBTQ, non-cisgender. And I thought that was interesting because I know that atheists are said to be more liberal and more affiliated with the Democratic Party.

But I guess I didn’t think carefully about that piece of sexual orientation or gender orientation. So I just found an analysis about that. 95% of white Evangelicals identify as straight, which is not surprising. Right? But then you go over the Bible list and the group atheists.

Only three-quarters of atheists identify as straight and 10% of atheists identify as bisexual, 8% identify as gay, and about 2% identify as lesbian or gay women.

So atheists, about a quarter of all atheists today are not straight people. They’re LGBT. So to me, I think those two things are like chicken and egg. It’s hard to figure out the cause. A lot of stories of the conversion that people tell are directly related to their sexual orientation. Growing up, the gender orientation they grew up in a church community that was so accepting of either of those two things.

And so, they left a faith community because they felt so oppressed and so isolated by being part of that community. And so they left and became an atheist and many of them they were actively opposed to church when they thought church with them was an impediment to life and hurt them, caused trauma in their lives.

So, another sort of active campaigning against religion in America because of their personal experience. I do think those two things run hand in hand. I think atheists are a good place to land for them. Gays in conservative small communities felt bad for being gay. They were made to feel bad for being gay largely by church people. And so they’re having this sort of reaction, a justifiable reaction to that. And that’s why we’re seeing so many atheists not being on the LGBT spectrum.

Jacobsen: Now, what about the general population? What are the numbers in terms of LGBT?

Burge: Yeah, so, it depends on how you ask the question. This is actually a huge topic going to people who study sexuality, because there’s all kinds of survey things that pop up in here. We think there’s somewhere around 8% of Americans, adult Americans, who are not straight.

But we also know that when we ask people that question on a survey, they’re going to probably lie, or at least some of them will lie, especially older people. Who maybe are married to someone of the opposite gender or have kids, have an established relationship with the church, they don’t want to publicly say that they are not straight in orientation.

What we do know is, younger people are much more likely to say they’re not straight. Like I have data that says the kids, college age kids 18 to 22, at least 15% to 20% of them say, they’re not straight. But that could be experimentation. We know that a lot of people are sexually experimenting in their early years.

But now, the interesting thing is the stigma against that has gone away dramatically in the last 10 years or so. And so now, maybe, we’re seeing the true number, which is, maybe, 15% to 20% or of under-22-year-olds experiment with someone of the same gender. But then, it goes down over time.

And then once you get into the 50-year-olds, 60-year-olds, it’s 5%. So, it’s definitely a downward slide as people age, but we don’t know for sure because there’s still some stigma there that we can’t fully pull out of the survey or we won’t even see the true number for the next 10 or 15 years.

Jacobsen: Why do half of liberals, white liberals, identify as Nones?

Burge: Oh, because the God gap in America is huge. The thing is, the Republican Party, I tell everybody this. The Republican Party in America today is a white Christian party.

75% of Republicans in America today are white and Christian. Which is staggering because 50% of America is white and Christian. Only 38% of the Democratic Party is white and Christian. you can not have two diametrically opposed parties.

Now, we go back to this argument of what came first, the chicken or the egg. And the reality is we don’t know if your politics drives your religious affiliation or your religious affiliation drives your politics. There does seem to be some evidence emerging now that politics is the first cause and that it is changing people’s religion versus the other direction, which is your religion impacts your politics.

Because we do have some data that people, for instance liberal Evangelicals, left their churches or were more likely to leave their churches during the 2016 campaign than Republican Evangelicals were. Because we think it’s a bad fit for them politically.

So, we think that white liberals are being attracted to the Democratic Party, that non-white liberal Nones like the Democrats because that’s become the party of non-Christianity and racial diversity and openness. I don’t want to go too far here, but the left in America, especially white liberals in America, have sort of developed their own spirituality around progressive politics of being as liberal as humanly possible.

There’s some data now. There’s this term called “.” I don’t know if you have heard it.

Jacobsen: Yeah, there’s been some comedy sketches within some of the Latin American community around different Latin American countries. Reactions to the term “Latino” and then the introduction of “Latinx,” because so much effort was taken to even get general community support for “Latino” as a general term. And it’s a whole series. It’s very funny how this all plays out in terms of these sketches.

Burge: What’s funny to me is that I love that term “Latinx,” if you’re going to write a paper about Hispanics, you’re going to use that term in your paper. I just saw a survey in which like only 2% of Latinos would like that term.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Burge: They don’t want to be called that. But it’s like academics like have this paternal thing, “No, no, no, you are being oppressed. I can tell you. You’re being oppressed. We’re going to call you something you don’t want to be called. So, you don’t feel oppressed.”

It’s very hard. It goes on with the left in America in some ways because, for instance, there was a recent survey that said that white liberals were more bothered by the fact that Joe Biden was an old white guy than black liberals were, which tells you a lot about what’s going on in American politics. I think, which has a lot of virtue signaling.

Jacobsen: Well, it seems like non-dialogical activism. There’s no discourse in terms of “What do you see as most important, and to what degree?” And then using that information, you can build concretized activism. If you don’t have that, then it becomes very hard to represent a community in general.

Here’s one I haven’t asked you. If you have an individual who is poor, what is their most likely religious identification in America? If the person has a doctorate or the highest level of educational status in the United States, what is their most likely religious identification? Then those same questions for political identification.

Burge: So here’s the thing. People don’t realize this, but like when we talk about the Nones. There’s actually three types of Nones: atheists, agnostics, nothing in particulars. The three different groups of people.

Atheists and agnostics have incredibly high levels of education. They’re near the top now. They’re not as high as, for instance, Hindus. There’s a ton of education because a lot of them come here from the country to get education here, because in places like India, Pakistan. They’re places where Hinduism is strong.

Here’s what’s super interesting. So they’re high on the education spectrum, the highest in America. And then at the bottom of the spectrum, the group that has the lowest level of education in America is that nothing in particular. Less than a quarter of nothing in particulars, have a four-year college degree, lower than black Protestants. They’re lower than every other group.

Jacobsen: Why?

Burge: When we match the Nones together, you’re mashing together two groups with one group, and the one group is completely different than the two other groups because most people pick atheist and agnostics – because they’ve gone through some sort of intellectual pursuit of those terms of understand what “atheism” means and “agnosticism” means, what “secularism” means.

All those things. They’ve read about Karl Marx and all this kind of stuff. Nothing in particulars for a group of people go, “I don’t know.” It’s not the same thing. So nothing in particular group is this is key demographic too. This particular group is 20% of all Americans.

The atheists are about 6% of all Americans. The agnostics are about 6% of all Americans. So together, atheists and agnostics are just over half the size of the nothing in particular group. So we mash all those groups together. Look at the education of the Nones, it’s going to skew downward because of the nothing in particular group.

Usually, agnostics downward would have a high level of education. So there’s this debate going on amongst academics who study these people. “What are the Nones? Who are they? These three groups together are not a model.

They’re so different in characteristics. We don’t consider Protestant Christianity a monolith. We divide it up. We talked about mainline Protestant and Evangelical black. We probably should do the same thing with the Nones because they’re 30% of the population. They’re completely different.

Evangelicals are the middle. Mainline classes are near the top. Jews are also near the top. So, Evangelicals have gained a lot of education over the last thirty years. That used to be more true, but not less true, because a lot of them are going to college working ahead – working at white collar jobs.

Now, in terms of education, here’s something super interesting, I didn’t know until last week when I got asked by a reporter about this – to look it up. It used to be for a long, long time, as far back 1972. The average Republican had more education than the average Democrat.

And sometimes, it was significantly more like a year and a half or so, or two years, more school back in the ‘60s, ‘70s. Now, that begins to narrow beginning in the 1980’s. And now in the last two years, the lines have crossed. Now, the average Democrat has more education than the average Republican. And that’s largely because the average Republican educational attainment has stalled over the last twenty years or so around the millennium.

It’s up right about fourteen years of education, the associate’s degree, the Democrat education is continuing a trend upward. And in five years, Democrats might clearly have more education than Republicans do.

Jacobsen: Now, in other words, if someone is of Jewish ethnic background, atheist, non-religious identification as a None subcategory and a Democrat, then this individual will have far more education than any other categorization in the United States.

Burge: At the aggregate level, sure, I would definitely look to get their education level. I would say they have at least a bachelor’s degree, if not more. But obviously, there are always outliers.

So, maybe, if you never graduate high school, there are so many good jobs. It’s all over the board. But in the aggregate, you would figure someone, a Jewish person anyway, could have a higher base level of education because that’s the culture of the Jewish community. But then there are a lot of atheists that you talked about, which I think give a different level of Judaism.

But you can always have outliers. I love a plumber who reads. That’s great. But those people don’t exist very much. People sort of follow the tropes surrounding their religious and social groups.

So for Evangelicals, you, typically, read the Bible. So, that’s kind of how that works.

Jacobsen: Why are white Evangelicals the single most conservative group on immigration?

Burge: A lot of Evangelicals are living in very homogeneous communities. They live in racially homogenous communities, even politically homogenous communities. And they don’t have a lot of interaction with immigrants.

They live together like a Mexican restaurant, where there are immigrants. But beyond that, they don’t have a lot of interaction with them. And so, it’s just good old nationalism. A lot of it. Christian nationalism, which is a whole term, it’s emerging in American politics today.

The idea that America is a Christian nation and we need to defend Christian values. So, white and Christian go together. And so when we see brown people coming here, they’re making America less white. And that’s scary because that means whites won’t be the majority and lose their rights.

White people in America have a privilege that they don’t recognize, a lot of them. A phrase I use often is “when you’re used to privilege equality feels like oppression.” And white Evangelicals in America are used to privilege. And now they’re going to have to face a world where they’re equal with other racial groups, other religious groups. They don’t want that.

So what you’re seeing in America is sort of the last gasp or backfire effect of a group who knows that the end is near. Their reign in American politics is slowly coming to an end. It probably will be in the next 10 to 15 years.

And so what you’re seeing is they are like gasping and grasping and trying everything they can to hold onto the power for as long as they can. And immigration is part of that. They realize by slowing immigration, they’re actually slowing the browning of America, which is good for them.

Now, what’s super interesting is to go down the rabbit hole quick, Evangelicals have always been pro immigration for the issues of Christian persecution in other countries. We used to let in about 100,000 people in this country every year who were being persecuted for their religious beliefs in countries across the world.

For instance, Christians are being persecuted in China a lot. That’s factual, not just Evangelicals. And we’ve let them come to our country and give them safe haven here. During the Trump administration, the number of immigrants coming for religious persecution had dropped from 100,000 to less than 20,000, which is the lowest it has ever been.

Most Evangelical organizations are completely opposed to the idea and think it should go back to the 100,000 threshold that it has been for a long time. But the average rank and file Evangelical doesn’t know that. But if they did know that, they would not change their position and still would say, “Yes, we need less immigrants in America.”

So, this is an interesting disconnect going on amongst the Evangelical community, between the elite Evangelicals, the ones who run the publications and run these organizations Evangelicals care about, what the rank and file Evangelicals think, which is that “immigration is bad.” And in reality, there are some instances where it is not bad.

Jacobsen: Ryan, thank you so much once more, and I will talk to you again in two weeks.

Burge: Always a pleasure, Scott. Appreciate it.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Faye 10 – Taboos to the Final Trip: Sail Away, Eh, or Nay?

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/04/14

Faye Girsh is the Founder and the Past President of the Hemlock Society of San Diego. She was the President of the National Hemlock Society (Defunct) and the World Federation of RTD Societies (Extant). Currently, she is on the Advisory Board of the Final Exit Network and the Euthanasia Research and Guidance Organization. Here we talk about culture keeping the ship anchored at the dock.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Even with the availability of the means by which to kill oneself in desperation or to commit an act of rational suicide, the taboos in the culture can prevent this, extending possible human suffering beyond reasonable timings. 

One, what are those cultural barriers?

Faye Girsh: We talked earlier about religion and the value of Life itself, quality notwithstanding. Suicide is a taboo in both religious and secular circles. Religion sees it as an act against God who gives life and takes it away. In society generally it connotes some kind of mental illness or irrational, even selfish behavior. It is inexplicable that, if life is the supreme value (as we see in the education many doctors get) then not preserving it as long as possible is stupid or evil, but certainly not laudatory. In Ernest Hemingway’s recent biography John McCain is seen as saying that Hemingway’s suicide is understandable because of his inability to do what mattered to him. That is a pretty enlightened perspective. One wonders if McCain contemplated suicide as his brain tumor was progressing, much like Brittany Maynard did. People would argue that aid in dying, because of a terminal or incurable illness, is not suicide since the person would, absent their illness, want to live. A suicidal person wants to die, though I think this is simplistic. You raise the issue that these cultural taboos and stigma may serve to prolong suffering. The reason we have some of these restrictions on suicide is that, for some people, their suffering does ease (e.g., from the death of a loved one or being bullied by peers) and life continues. For others, whether from a chronic psychiatric condition or a medical one from which there is no recovery, indeed the suffering continues and worsens. Not providing an honorable and peaceful way out is cruelty.

Jacobsen: Two, why are those cultural barriers intimately tied to the legal structure, or lack thereof, around issues of rational suicide?

Girsh: Good question! In most civilized countries, ours included, suicide is not unlawful and is considered a medical condition that should be treated. Thus, when someone is talking about ending their lives, or makes an attempt, they are encouraged to voluntarily commit themselves for psychiatric treatment or they are committed involuntarily on a temporary hold. The assumption, realistically, is that the urge to die is a result of a treatable situation. Lives have been saved because of this enlightened position. But, assisting a suicide IS a crime which can carry a long sentence — even when the deceased person has requested — nay, begged — for the remedy. Such was the case when Dr. Kevorkian was found Guilty of Manslaughter and sentenced to 10 to 25 years in prison. Millions of people watched Tom Youk, in the final throes of ALS, begging to die and Dr. Kevorkian asking if he was sure or wanted to wait. The legal doctrine is something like, consent to be killed does not exonerate the person who “kills.” It is also not legal to tell someone how to end her life despite her pleading. This interference by the legal system has prevented doctors from doing what they — and their patients — think is appropriate and merciful. Even an act like administering morphine before removing a breathing tube to let a person die is feared by many to be a prosecutable act. The prospect of a legal complaint or judgment when working with a sick patient who dies is enough to fail to treat that patient with enough pain relief. Even civil cases are brought against nursing homes when a 98-year-old patient die. Much suffering is caused by overly broad reaches of the law where death is concerned.

Jacobsen: Three, how do culture and law relate to one another in a feedback process in change in culture leading to change in law, alteration in law bringing alteration in culture, and so on?

Girsh: As in the example above, suicide used to be thought of as a crime, albeit one hard to punish. It was done by penalizing the family, taking money from the estate, and not allowing the person to be buried in a regular cemetery, or even driving a stake through the body. These were the punishments wrought by the Church and embodied in civil law. As religious explanations were supplanted by medical theories mental illness became the explanatory concepts and the punitive measures became medical ones. Similarly it was religious concepts that dictated that pain during childbirth and at the end of life were redemptive, modern theories of anesthesia took over and suffering was relieved instead of endured. But that idea still exists around dying. There isthe religious stigma that suicide is against God’s will. It is the reason given for the millions of dollars poured into anti-assisted dying campaigns around the country. As religion plays a diminishing role in Americans’ lives, people see that the choice of how life can end may be an acceptable cultural option.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Faye.

Girsh: Thank you, Scott.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Jon 21: “The New York Times” and Secular Reportage

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/04/13

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New YorkHere we talk about The New York Times and reportage on the secular and the religious.

*Interview conducted on August 10, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So periodically, as this comes out in several of these sessions with you, and other (informal) conversations with you, you’ve talked about writing letters to the editor or sending in submissions to your “hometown paper” or The New York Times, otherwise known as the most influential newspaper in the English speaking world.

So, what was your recent submission to them? And why this area of focus based around all the conversations that are just simply taken for granted and happen all the time, especially in the exclusion of, at least, one viewpoint in very popular, mainstream, robust news coverage in the United States?

Jonathan Engel: Well, yes, it’s interesting. I wrote a letter to The Times this weekend. I submitted a manuscript to them. I also sent a separate letter along with my manuscript. And what I was telling The Times was that I was disappointed by the fact that The New York Times – and we’ll get to this, also much of the mainstream media in the United States even what was considered the liberal mainstream media – fails to consider secular points of view.

Now, of course, most of the articles that are written in The New York Times are secular in the sense that they’re not about religion at all. But I’m talking about something different. Because some writings prompted me to send that letter to The Times editorial board.

I was leafing through the paper, both the main news section and the reviews from Sunday, which has the bad in it. And I saw all sorts of things about people of varying religions and their points of view on things. There was an article, for example. There was an op ed in the review section, a woman who was African American, Catholic, talking about the need for Catholicism to acknowledge, sometimes, racism in the United States, and the need to be more welcoming to African-Americans and how important it is as part of Catholic theology to not be biased.

There was also an article by a woman who is Hindu about arranged marriages in an Indian culture. And again, this touched on Hinduism and various aspects of Hinduism. And of course, there was an article about Evangelicals because they’re always talking about evangelicals in this country, Evangelical Christians.

But as I was looking through it, I’m saying to myself. The New York Times, which is considered, at least to some, a liberal media outlet, and the paper of record, as they like to call themselves; they very rarely print anything from a secular point of view. So, I sent them that letter to encourage them.

So one of the things I mentioned to them is that there is now a Freethought Caucus in the United States Congress. But I found that out online. I never saw that in The New York Times. Why aren’t they talking about that? Why aren’t they talking about secular people at least once in a while?

I’ve never seen an article in The New York Times that says something along the lines of “What are secularists thinking about this election? How do they view? How do they view things in any way differently than a religious person?” And then again, I almost never see an article in The Times or an op ed in The Times that’s directly from a secular point of view on these issues.

And I’ll give you an example of a recent issue that’s come up that involves religion and public life. That was Donald Trump, who at this point is president of the United States. It’s like a fever dream. But apparently, Trump is saying stuff, antireligious stuff, about Joe Biden.

That antireligious stuff would say, “Joe Biden if he’s elected, he will destroy the Bible, who will hurt God,” which is kind of a funny thing. I didn’t realize Biden had those kind of superpowers. But of course, Trump is just babbling. But what I’m interested so much in there is Trump, who just wants to scare Americans, that if Joe Biden is president things will be even worse than they are, which is hard to imagine.

But the response of the media, especially when I was considering the response of what’s considered the liberal mass media in this country, or at least the somewhat liberal like The New York Times, like MSNBC, like The Washington Post. By my way of thinking, they missed the point and missed the mark.

Because a lot of the response was, “Oh, that’s an outrage that Trump should say this, because Joe Biden is a devout Catholic.” You see pictures of Biden in church and Biden on his knees praying, and “how dare Trump say that about Biden where Biden is a devout Catholic.”

Now, okay, I get that. It’s a lie about who Biden is, and that’s wrong and should be pointed out for what it was. But nobody seemed to point out the fact that it doesn’t matter. There is a provision of the United States Constitution.

It’s Article Six, Paragraph Three. And what it says, there shall never be a religious test for public office or any public trust under the United States. So, the framers of the Constitution specifically said there can never be any religious test for public office.

You don’t to have evolve. But a local state or counsel, whatever, says a person must swear to God. In fact, that same provision of the Constitution says that when someone takes an oath of office that it doesn’t have to be enough. That it could be an affirmation. The courts of the oath end with “so help me God.”

But an affirmation is “I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.” And that’s it or you can add to it: ‘And I make this statement with full knowledge of the penalties of perjury.’ But you don’t have to mention God.

And I felt like this would have been a perfect time for the time sought for MSNBC. Somebody on MSNBC took that it was like a teachable moment for the country. Yes, it’s wrong for Trump to lie about Biden’s religion. But let’s also keep in mind that the Constitution says that there’s no religious test for public office.

That would have been a perfect time to do it. But if anybody did either directly holding the Constitution or just talking about the spirit of it, “oh, I didn’t see it.” And I read The New York Times pretty much every day. And I listen to MSNBC a lot. I go on all kinds of liberal websites like Raw Story.

And I didn’t see anybody make that point. “What did Trump say?” Of course, again, it was a lie about Biden. But also, let’s keep in mind, Biden’s religious beliefs, the framers of the Constitution specifically told us that what Biden or anybody else running for public office believes regarding religion are not relevant.

There’s no religious test for public office and nobody said that. And that bothered me. You wouldn’t expect this view on Fox News, but you would think on MSNBC or The New York Times. Somebody would mention, “Hey, but either way, this isn’t supposed to be relevant.”

When John Kennedy was running for president, all those many years ago. There were a lot of people who were against him for various reasons, including his being Catholic. “John takes his orders from the Pope.” And he gave a fairly well-known speech in which he talked about, ‘No, I am just running for president of the United States and my religion doesn’t enter into it.’

And he affirms the separation of church and state in that speech. And, boy, all these years later, and nobody seems to have learned anything from it. So get getting back to my local hometown newspaper, The New York Times, which is kind of a funny way to think of it, I do live in New York. The New York Times should be including the secular viewpoint and for the most part they’re not.

Jacobsen: When it comes to other papers in the United States of a similarly prominent view, few even come close to staking that claim. Is the conversation the same?

Engel: I think so. As far as I know, and I don’t want to speak out of turn because, obviously, it’s a big country, a lot of viewpoints, etc. But in media outlets that we consider pretty mainstream, I would say, “Yes.” If they’re not printing a specifically secular point of view in The New York Times or talking about it on MSNBC, then I can’t imagine that there are too many outlets that are doing that.

And again, the reaction from looking all over the place about the Biden incident with Trump and calling him anti-religion was, “No, no, that’s not true. That’s a lie. Biden is religious.” And as far as I know, if it’s out there, I haven’t seen it.

I am looking for somebody to show it to me. Maybe, some small local newspaper somewhere printed something about, “Hey, wait a minute, this isn’t supposed to matter. The framers of our Constitution state that it is not supposed to matter.” But if it’s out there, I haven’t seen it. And again, this is New York. As America goes, we’re a pretty secular place.

So, I didn’t see this in The New York Times. And I didn’t see it in the Daily News. And believe me, it wasn’t in the New York Post. I write something about it. That’s going into my newsletter for the Secular Humanist Society of New York. But that’s hardly a mainstream outlet, which is read by, maybe, two or three hundred people every week.

And that’s it. And so, I haven’t seen that about this issue in particular debates. But generally, The Times, I’ll give you an example. There’s a Times columnist, Nicholas Kristof, who writes every once in a while. He does a column, which is basically an interview with a faith leader.

And he makes very sure that he puts Muslims and Hindus and Jews and Buddhists and Catholics and Protestants and Evangelicals and non-Evangelicals into the interviews. To the best of my knowledge, he’s never had an interview with a secular leader to talk to them about secularism. It’s not considered.

One of the things I said to The New York Times in my letter was that The Times should not participate in perpetuating this particular form of discrimination by treating atheists and other secularists as if we didn’t exist. And that’s kind of the way they treat us, the way we get treated. And we’re a lot of votes; we’re a lot of people.

And the basic way of treating that in the mainstream media, even in The New York Times, is to ignore us and pretend that we don’t exist. It’s like when people say something like, “We all worship the same God.” Many liberals will say this. Of course, we don’t, because some of us don’t worship any gods at all.

But they say it because they think that’s a liberal point of view. And it’s just ignoring millions of people of this country, people like me. And it’s about time, I think, that stopped.

Jacobsen: When there’s some of the language used on interbelief panels or discussions on some of these similar issues, it’s hidden in the language, too. One thing I’ve noticed for a long time is the use of the term “interfaith.” To make this truly equal, it would be an interbelief framework. Some beliefs have few premises.

But particular beliefs, or in general, we’ll have some kind of framework. Some of those will require faith. A small minority of them won’t. So when I look forward to the future of these discussions, I try to pitch, sometimes, very gently about “interbelief” panels, discussions, etc., rather than interfaith.

Because interfaith, especially in the post Bush Jr. Era with “Faith-Based Initiatives,” implies religion in theism or deism rather than agnosticism or atheism or otherwise. So, do you notice this as well? Some of these other small terminological issues that do kind of belie a certain hidden culture.

Engel: Yeah, I, definitely, see that all the time. You can see “interfaith.” The whole point is curious, because the whole point where people say, “We’re going to have it,” and say it. An interfaith meeting to discuss police brutality or an interfaith meeting to discuss racism or something like that, they are leaving out seculars.

I think their intent is to include everybody. But there’s just this blind assumption that interfaith includes everybody. And, boy, it sure as heck doesn’t. Because it doesn’t include me. And I think it doesn’t include you. But I want to tell you, something that gave me a little bit of hope.

In the beginning of this year, I participated in a panel in a high school, a public high school in New York City; they had a panel of religious people, religious points of view. And there was an imam and there was a rabbi and there was Catholic priests and there were several Protestant denominations and also like Universalist type things.

But they also included me. They had reached out to me. I guess they found the Secular Humanist Society, our website or something. And they reached out to me and I participated. And I was with the kids, high school kids. And I was able to express my points of view. And it was pretty cool, and it was very interesting.

But I thought that was a great step. It’s not the type of thing you see very much. But you got to hope for it, every once in a while. And that in that case, they didn’t just say, “OK, we have the Muslim, the Jew, the Catholic, the Protestant, the Hindu, the Buddhists, we’re covered.”

They also brought in an atheist speech and I thought that was a little bit of a ray of hope. But I do think you’re right. I think you see this idea of interfaith things all the time as being, “Oh, that’s such a good thing because it involves everybody. That’s the whole point. And the truth of the matter is, you and I know: if you’re doing an interfaith anything, it doesn’t involve us.

Jacobsen: And there’s always the critical question that comes to mind for me: “Why is faith a virtue?” By what you mean, why do most Americans consider faith a virtue? Or why are most Americans talked into the idea that faith is a virtue, belief without evidence is a virtue?

Engel: Boy, that is a great one. That’s one of the things that drives me a little crazy once in a while. The assumption that a person of faith and a religious person is what I would call that, because I have faith in something. And if I get into a cab, I have faith the guy knows how to drive.

If I go to the doctor, I have faith in the doctor that she’s a board certified physician and that if they’re looking at my eyes or they’re looking in my gut or whatever part of my body is looked at, I have faith that they know what they’re doing. So the word “faith” was turned into religion.

The word “religion” was turned into the word faith. I think it was in order to bamboozle open talk about the faith based initiatives. That if Bush wants to open up an office of religious based initiatives, somebody might have said, “Hey, you can’t do that.”

But faith based initiative, somehow, that’s okay. This is the idea that somehow because the person believes in something that isn’t there; they’re a better person than me. I’ll tell you. I always think about the movie Miracle on 34th Street. There’s a scene in the movie where the lawyer played by John Payne is talking to the little girl played by a very young Natalie Wood.

And she’s talking to him about common sense. And he said to her, ‘Don’t you see, faith is believing in something and common sense tells you not to.’ And whenever I see it on TV, I yell at the screen, “No, that’s delusion!”

One of the things that I talked about fairly recently, where did Americans learn not to believe in science? Because we’re having this terrible disaster with Covid, and a lot of it comes from people’s refusal to believe in science.

And I said, “Well, where did we learn? Where would Americans learn not to believe in science?” The answer to me is in church, in synagogue, in temple, in mosque. That’s where they learned that believing in something for which there is no evidence; it’s one of the best things a human being can aspire to.

Jacobsen: Yeah. I can echo that with the Canadian example. I wrote the most comprehensive article by a long shot. I’m examining pretty much every personality or organization or coverage of creationism in Canada. If you look at the “creation science” associations in Canada per province or otherwise, all of them or like 99% of the presentations that the individuals who are part of these organizations give, where do you think they have their all or 99%+ presentations? It’s in the churches.

So, this isn’t religious in general. This isn’t simply a religious framework of things, where people are generally believing with these faith-based belief systems. It happens in particular with one religion. It happens with the Christian religion. And I think that’s a pretty strong branch. It’s not all of it, but it’s a big branch of it.

But it’s not just the temples and the synagogues and the churches. Another branch, that is the New Age stuff, or “newage” as James Randi calls it to rhyme with “sewage.” And a lot of that stuff that just happens in general culture. In British Columbia, there’s the initialism about the spiritual but not religious (SBNR) people.

They are part of the formal academic repertoire now in terms of research. And they have a lot of the nonsense beliefs, but at the same time; they don’t have a formal religion.

Engel: I take this back to The New York Times. Many years ago, I suppose this is about 20, 25 years ago. A spy was caught. A guy name who is actually an American. This wasn’t a foreign spy; this was an American. His name was Aldrich Ames. And he was spying for Russia.

And if we catch the Russian spies spying, we usually exchange them for an American spy that we have over there. But you got an American spy for Russia and you’re going to prison for a long time. Everybody knows the guy’s still there. But the reason I bring him up is because after he had been caught, it was all over the newspapers.

There was an article, front page article in The New York Times that said “U.S. Charges Present a Paradox: the Pious Spy.” And they were saying, “Oh, he attended church every Sunday and he was a deacon in his church,” or something like that.

And they interviewed the church members and they say, “Oh, we can’t believe that our friend Aldrich Ames was spying for the Russians.” And the whole point that the article was how incredible it was that someone who could be so religious and still betray his country.

Why do you automatically think that a person who was religious wouldn’t do something that most of us consider really ethically wrong? Where is the connection between how pious a person is and how ethically and morally they act?

Because when you look at it and realize there is no connection between those things. And yet the article wasn’t even making the point that there is a connection. The article made the assumption that there is that connection, which is not only just factually wrong. But what’s going on is, you’re wrong in your own eyes.

But it also is denigrating to people like you and me, who I know – and I’m sure you know – like to consider ourselves as being good people and having morals and ethics. And yet the assumption is that somehow somebody who’s religious and has religious beliefs, that automatically they get the head start.

Or what we automatically assume there, they may find out that they’re not really ethical and moral. But we give them that head start that is not given to any secular person.

Jacobsen: I want to expand it a bit more to the idea of ethics as simply how one human being or operator interacts with another human being or operator. So, an ethic is by its nature social. Unless, one of the only creatures alive in the universe or the last person on Earth that one has to consider, then solipsism makes sense where only ego is ethical, so (Ethical) Egoism makes sense.

Outside of that, it’s a variety of other ethics being taken into account or it becomes pathological. So this is the old question about ethics as a larger framework on that idea, where it’s not about “if ethics…” It’s fundamentally a question of “What ethic?”

And so when it comes to even murderers or members of the KKK or members of the Nation of Islam, who will say or do egregious things in their own respective ways. They’re not going to define themselves as a bad person. They’re going to define themselves as, and the things they do generally as a, good. They won’t say, “I’m a murderer,” or, “I’m a white racist,” or, “I’m black supremacist.” These sorts of things.

They’ll put it in the best of terms in regards to how they see the world. So, they will see themselves as ethical people, as in good people. And I think that’s the generous view of looking at a religious person when they state, “I am a religious person.”

What they are trying to convey to people, who are not of their religion or who are non-religious, is, “I am a moral person. I am a good person.” So, I understand what they’re trying to say. I don’t think they understand how they are being heard and understood. That’s the big difference, I think.

But certainly I think you’re right on that other frame. It comes across as highly offensive to many people who define themselves as secular humanist or otherwise, when someone says, “I am a religious person,” as in “I am a good person.” Because the logical implication, non-religious people, secular people, etc., become non-moral, non-good, and that’s offensive.

Engel: Yes, absolutely. And there are also practical considerations for that. Someone who gets convicted of a crime. Maybe, we’ll have, at sentencing, someone speak for them. That now, “Yeah, he made a mistake. But we should be lenient because he or she really is a good person.”

The court generally will accept the kind of testimony that says they go to church every week. [Laughing] ‘they go to church.’

And we also know, and we’ve made a little progress in this area. But we also know that frequently when a crime is committed that involves drugs or alcohol. If you go to Alcoholics Anonymous, which is a religious organization, one of the steps is acknowledging a God, acknowledging a higher power.

They’ll say, “Okay, if you go to Alcoholics Anonymous, or if you go to Narcotics Anonymous, meetings, as long as you keep attending those meetings, I will meet you. So, that you keep your parole,” or something like that.

There are now some groups that have started around the country that are like, alcohol support groups or more narcotics support groups for people who are not religious. Now, I haven’t done the research, so I don’t know if courts will accept that.

But only as much as they would accept the traditional Alcoholics Anonymous. But again, you get that privilege. It is an area of privilege. It’s funny. We talk a lot about how it’s important to have the conversations that we’re having in the United States now about white privilege when it comes to race.

But there is a religious privilege to that, I think. And people think, “If, at least, some white people are looking at their privilege in the United States and saying, ‘Well, that really should be the case rather than this.’”

But it hasn’t shifted to religion, yet, where people who are religious are saying, “I have a privilege as a fact of being religious. Religion gives me a privilege in this country, which isn’t deserved.” And nobody’s talking about that, except, apparently, you and me.

Jacobsen: John, it’s been a longer session. And I have another session coming up.

Engel: It was a good one this week.

Jacobsen: Hey, thanks so much, sir. Appreciate it.

Engel: Take care now. Bye.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Faye 9: Moirai, or the Allotter, the Spinner, and the Inflexible

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/04/10

Faye Girsh is the Founder and the Past President of the Hemlock Society of San Diego. She was the President of the National Hemlock Society (Defunct) and the World Federation of RTD Societies (Extant). Currently, she is on the Advisory Board of the Final Exit Network and the Euthanasia Research and Guidance Organization. Here we talk about death, dying, and image versus reality.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What comes to mind when people who have outwardly good lives kill themselves?

Faye Girsh: When a person seems to have everything to live for: health, love, money, stability, an interesting life. Anthony Bourdain comes to mind. His death seemed to be a tragedy. So did Robin Williams’ death until his Lewy Body Dementia came to light and then it was easy to understand how he must have been suffering from confusion, brain fog, and depersonalization.

His brand of quick humour must have been impossible to continue. He apparently never discussed it with anyone nor did he belong to a right to die organization that could have informed him of a “better” way to die. I have two good friends who killed themselves, one by jumping off our tallest bridge and one by shooting himself in the head.

Both were attractive, bright people in what seemed like perfect marriages and loving families. One in the care of a very capable psychiatrist. It may be that Robin Williams’ case illustrates how little we know about what goes on in people’s heads and hearts and how much suffering they have endured before making the decision.

We use the term “unbearable suffering” as the criterion for eligibility to get an assisted death (in most countries, not the US) but I would have to imagine that these people, like Robin Williams, did find their lives unbearable.

They had the idea that there was no way out and no treatment or solution other than death. These, to me, are suicides that don’t make sense and are tragic — but I must reserve judgment since it is easy for me to say.

I also had a friend who killed himself and his demented wife for whom he was the caregiver, somehow that seems rational and understandable, though terribly sad and a waste. Two other older friends killed themselves because they were so deeply in debt — as we later found out — that they would have been evicted and homeless.

Another couple wanted to leave a large sum to their church, so they ended their lives. These deaths seem “elective” and do not, on the surface, make sense to most people but then some people put a higher priority on other things than living.

Jacobsen: How can different circumstances and groups suffer from suicidality differentially?

Girsh: This recent year where all of us were isolated was not good for mental health, whether children’s or old people’s. We caused one public health crisis in the service of preventing another. Losing your job and not being able to feed or house your family is another situation leading to despair.

We know in India when crops were failing many farmers drank fertilizer and died. The latest stimulus bill in the US had the express purpose of preventing a public health crisis of depression and suicide. Another group at high risk of suicide are people with gender dysphoria who see themselves at odds with their families and society.

When attitudes change and they can be comfortable with who they are they are no longer at risk. In the past few years, the stigma of homosexuality was lifted probably resulting in many lives being saved. In some other countries such is not the case.

Veterans in the US have a high suicide rate and it does appear to lower when their health, housing, and vocational needs are addressed.

Jacobsen: Some fear mass suicides or increases in suicides if legalization of dying with dignity moves forward. Does the evidence support this claim?

Girsh: We do see an increasing use of assisted dying in places like Canada or the Benelux countries but these are people who would have died a natural and difficult death or people who would have “committed” suicide because of long-standing psychological problems.

When the book Final Exit came out, with explanations of methods of humane “self-deliverance”, the author, Derek Humphry, said that the number of suicides did not increase but the number of violent, lonely deaths went down.

In countries like Japan where suicide is an acceptable, if not honorable, way to die the rate is fairly high and is lower in Catholic countries where it is a sin.

Jacobsen: Thank you, Faye, for the opportunity and your time.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Jon 20: Gratitude, Thanks, Good Tidings, and Cheer

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/04/10

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New YorkHere we talk about Thanksgiving.

*Interview conducted on November 23, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Ok, so, this will be a session for Thanksgiving. So our topic today is gratitude, not towards some thing, but about things. In particular the basics of life in most societies being food, we can add shelter and in a modern society, the ability to read, literacy. So, what are your thoughts about Thanksgiving as a time for gratitude without the need for faith? Just a nice time to enjoy life and be grateful.

Jonathan Engel: Yeah, it’s always been and still is my favorite holiday. Partly because it’s not really a religious holiday. I mean, some people make it so because they say they give their thanks to a deity or something like that. But there’s no requirement for that.

And certainly, didn’t stand from any religious, particular religious, tradition, more like a harvest’s tradition where you celebrate the harvest. Now, of course, most people like me, I live in the middle of the biggest city in North America. I’m not a farmer.

But there’s still a certain it’s still nice to have that day where you take a step back and eat. And you think about again, I like giving; I don’t have gratitude to a deity because I don’t believe in any deities.

But I do understand quite well that I am fortunate. That I have a roof over my head, and I have enough food to eat, and a few bucks left over for this and that. And I have an understanding that not everybody does. And so to me, it’s nice to intertwine those things.

Those on the one hand, yes, I do feel fortunate for what I have, etc. But also, it’s a good time to remember the people who don’t have much. And to do what you can, maybe, it’d be a donation or something like that to a group that helps people. There are various other ways that you can give back.

But also remembering, part of it is just trying, I don’t want to be political about this necessarily. But trying to elect people who understand that that’s an issue, that’s a problem. And that this is something that, in my name, I want addressed.

The number of people who lack literacy skills in this country is large. So, basically, that means people can’t read and write. Essentially, it’s what you would call a shanda, a shame for our country that we allow such things to happen.

And that we don’t care enough about our fellow people. And that’s not a religious thing. It bothers me that a lot of people who are religious and assume that they care about other people. And that sort of benefit of the doubt is not given to a secularist, an atheist like me. But I do.

I think it’s important, again, to take a step back and say to yourself, “What can I do to make this place better?” Because not only if you help your fellow person, especially in something like this, especially when you talk about children, you’re talking about nutritional needs and educational needs. You do that.

And not only will you be a good person, and help the individual, but society benefits so much from having people who reach their own potential because when they reach their potential; it helps everybody else. And so, I think it’s part of the reason why I really like Thanksgiving.

But it’s not necessary for me. I don’t give thanks to a deity. I can give thanks to people I know. Like my wife, for my kids, they help make my life really worthwhile and help make it what it is. But there’s no artificial deity up there whose doing these things.

You want to thank God for the food, while I can thank the farmers for the food. And I can thank everybody else in the food supply chain for the food. And I’m just grateful that I have the money to buy the food. But I also understand that there are people who don’t have that.

And it’s important to remember them. And so, like I said, do what we can to try to ensure that this doesn’t happen anymore, that every child in this country gets a quality education. Every child in this country has enough food. Because kids, the lack of nutrition is a serious, serious problem in this country.

And a lack of nutrition means that a child won’t be able to learn. You can’t learn if you’re hungry. You can’t learn if you live in this homeless shelter, it’s very difficult. My wife teaches some kids whose families are living in shelters. It’s very chaotic and very difficult.

And it’s something that we as a people should commit ourselves to change. That’s how I feel about it. In this country, Lyndon Johnson started what he called the war on poverty in the 1960s. But at some point, I guess, maybe in the Reagan 80s, it seems like we just surrendered.

And said, “Oh, well, we can’t do anything about that.” That’s a load of nonsense. It takes a will and a belief that it’s important to do it. And if Thanksgiving is the day that reminds me of that, then I think that’s a good thing. I think every so often we should be reminded of something like that.

But I don’t want to get too austere about it. I like Thanksgiving, too. I don’t overeat. Maybe, at least a little bit, but also just spending the time with family and all the rituals that we go through.

There’s certain music we listen to on Thanksgiving. There were TV shows we watch on Thanksgiving. Because it’s just Thanksgiving and that’s what we do. And there’s a certain continuity that has a kind of nice feel to it and doesn’t have to be associated with religion.

Jacobsen: John, thanks so much.

Engel: It’s my pleasure, Scott. Listen, you take care.

Jacobsen: Thank you. You, too. Take care. Talk to you next week.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Mandisa 59 – Americans and Autonomy

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/02/19

Mandisa Thomas, a native of New York City, is the founder and President of Black Nonbelievers, Inc. Although never formally indoctrinated into belief, Mandisa was heavily exposed to Christianity, Black Nationalism, and Islam. As a child she loved reading, and enjoyed various tales of Gods from different cultures, including Greek and Ghanaian. “Through reading these stories and being taught about other cultures at an early age, I quickly noticed that there were similarities and differences between those deities and the God of the Christian Bible. I couldn’t help but wonder what made this God so special that he warrants such prevalence today,” she recalls.

*This was conducted May 25, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Some points to cover today. One of those would be values differences in America that can lead to far more negative outcomes compared to a lot of other countries in the world. There can be outliers in some countries with other values.

In generally, though, if we are looking at trends, the high value Americans place on autonomy can lead to negative outcomes for the population compared to other countries that have an emphasis on equity. What is the feel?

What is the sensibility of Americans around the value of autonomy? How does this not prepare Americans, when everything is privatized, when a calamity, a catastrophe, or a pandemic make the God concept something people lean on more heavily?

Mandisa Thomas: There are a lot of people who are still struggling. There are people who are either completely out of work, or their places of employment are at decreased capacity. Also, you have many whose jobs are deemed essential, and are still engaging the general public – which is stressful at this time. Sadly, there are quite a few people who, in typical American fashion, only care about what is best for themselves. And with little to no regard for the safety and social distancing measures.

What is important to them is being able to get the things they want at their convenience – which puts the rest of the population significantly at risk. Because we are still in a state of emergency when it comes to the pandemic, these folks don’t take into consideration that there are other people whose lives are at stake.How it plays into religion and the God concept: it is the sense of being superior, and that this being made these individuals so special that they will not be affected by this epidemic. So, it gives this overinflated sense of importance.

Considering the number of religious folks who have succumbed to this virus, this notion proves false.  And it definitely compels a general lack of disregard for other people’s lives.It is unfortunate that there isn’t more of a community based mindset. It’s like we’re dealing with a sink-or-swim as a mentality, which accounts for why the United States, in addition to not taking proactive measures, is seeing among the highest numbers of COVID-19  in the world.

Jacobsen: What is some of the commentary from members of the public? Are there any news clippings, quotes, or stories that tend to come across more often than not?

Thomas: Well, the New York Times ran a story of the 100,000+ people who have died from the virus in the United States. While it seems like a small number compared to the rest of the population, it’s still a lot of preventable deaths.

It is impactful because we see the current administration ONLY looking at numbers. And these are actual people. Whether they went through the healthcare system or not, contracted the virus, and didn’t make it, these are family members and friends. They still mattered at the end of the day. 

These are people who deserve to not be viewed simply as a statistic because of either the administration and/or the general public’s limited scope. We can take lessons from certain officials, like the Governor Cuomo of New York, who wants the spread of the virus curtailed, and is actively taking the steps to do so.He says, ‘God didn’t do this. The people did it.’ We are also ironically seeing a number of religious organizations taking to online platforms to host services. The pandemic has impacted their fundraising, as is the case with most organizations.

However, it is important for most of them to understand that safety is the primary issue here. Also, they need to consider that those few bad apple ministers and churches not following the safety guidelines makes them ALL look bad.

If they were a little more conscious of that, then they would, and should, be speaking out against them too.

Jacobsen: Now, there is an argument if we’re taking a several centuries long view. That livelihoods have improved for most people. I think that’s a valid argument. At the same time, there’s another argument looking at ethnic disparities and sex and gender disparities, in the access to resources, job opportunities, and quality of life from cradle to grave.

If we look at both of those narratives together in this context as well, we know in the African American community, in the black community; there are disparities, critical disparities compared to other subpopulations in the United States.

Now, religion, as you noted to me, is a big part, in particular Christian religion, is a big part of the black community, the African American community. How is that conversation amplified in that subpopulation, especially the subpopulation who are Christian impacted by deaths and despair by the coronavirus?

Thomas: So, I HAVE noticed a lot of organizations catering to the religious population, and are now trying to tailor their products to state, “Hey, God wants us to be saved”, and similar phrases. There’s an unfortunate irony here when we’re dealing with an institution so prevalent within the black community, and an increase in the COVID-19 related deaths.

It is as you mentioned before. It is due to a lack of resources and inequities in the healthcare system, along with many people’s mistrust of the medical field, and wanting to pray the problems away. This type of change cannot happen overnight.

What we’re seeing are attempts to catch up with technology in such a short amount of time. If this had been the focus for churches at least ten years ago, then perhaps it may not have been so severe. And there is a lot to be said about how they could have definitely availed themselves to technology way before then. But this means possibly having to admit that their God is not as powerful as they once thought.I DO want to be mindful about shaming people about what they may not have know before. Because when you’re dealing with populations and people who are highly religious, which is common among white populations as well, you’re dealing with the concept of change being difficult. It is best to take objective steps and showing care, empathy, and concern, and framing it in a way that is best for the entire community as opposed to a few individuals.

The churches are going to have to set the the divine intervention premise to the side for the moment, and say “Hey, safety first.” Even if you want to believe or pray to God,  your personal safety and the safety of your families and the general public are crucial, and should be prioritized.

Jacobsen: Mandisa, as always, thank you.

Thomas: Thank you.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Mandisa 58 – Capacity Limits and a Social Conscience

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/02/17

Mandisa Thomas, a native of New York City, is the founder and President of Black Nonbelievers, Inc. Although never formally indoctrinated into belief, Mandisa was heavily exposed to Christianity, Black Nationalism, and Islam. As a child she loved reading, and enjoyed various tales of Gods from different cultures, including Greek and Ghanaian. “Through reading these stories and being taught about other cultures at an early age, I quickly noticed that there were similarities and differences between those deities and the God of the Christian Bible. I couldn’t help but wonder what made this God so special that he warrants such prevalence today,” she recalls.

*This was conducted May 18, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What are some things people should keep in mind around reaching out to secular organizations about having a sensitivity about people being on the other side and organizations having certain capacities?

Mandisa Thomas: It is important to understand many secular organizations, like Black Nonbelievers, are still recent and growing. We are still trying to build solid foundations, particularly with community, and visibility. We understand many who leave the church may feel “burned” by those experiences and are jaded by the fact that they contributed a significant amount of financial resources without much in return.However, we cannot do our work without the support of the people. It doesn’t come out of the sky, and we still need more people to donate regularly. For BN in particular, it is harder to tap into those who have deeper pockets (five figures or more). We hope to reach that point and, receive some substantial endowments in the future.In addition to financial support, volunteering time and efforts helps us provide a more solid foundation for our organization.

Jacobsen: You do have discounts for students without particular resources, e.g., students. What do you not have discounts for, even though people may think that you do?

Thomas: For our events, we do offer student rates. This is because students are usually on a limited income and budgets. Their means are not as great as someone who may be working full-time, or may have more disposable income.Recently, I was asked about a senior citizen’s discount for our 10th Anniversary Celebration. I understand many senior citizens are also living on a limited income, however, in order for us to provide that subsidy, we would need more people supporting our events and the organization.Like students, we want more senior citizens (or as I say, folks of a more “mature” age) to attend our events and seek to be more accommodating. But that depends on who is willing to help in that area more, including as individuals of said age group. Far too often, we have people who utilize our resources and utilize our community, but still overlook the fact that we still need financial support in order to operate at a level that will be enjoyed by everyone.

So. we hope that EVERYONE is mature enough to understand this and prepare, especially since we send out the information within a considerable amount of time. If someone automatically asks for those types of discounts, we hope that they take into consideration the amount of time, monies, and other resources placed into our events, and our overall work.

Jacobsen: Is this a bigger problem for organizations that are appealing to populations in the United States who don’t have a significant pool to draw from, e.g., organizations like Sikivu Hutchinson runs, Women of Color Beyond Belief Conference, or Black Nonbelievers?

It’s a different context when as per the demographics of Pew Research and others. The number of black nonbelievers is increasing, but is still a superminority within that relevant demographic group. Is that exacerbating ordinary problems that you’re noting?

Thomas: That’s part of it, but I also think it’s where priorities are placed. People from minority groups who are so used to embodying suffering think (at least it appears), that when we create organizations and events, that they automatically come with enough resources to accommodate free admission. As much as I hate to say it, there are enough black atheists and enough members of Black Nonbelievers to sufficiently contribute to the point where we can have a working budget of five figures and more.No one is trying to get rich off this organization – definitely not me, and I will not allow anyone working directly with to “cash in” off of us. However, if the representation and the work that we do is truly appreciated, then this SHOULD be paid work. Oftentimes, we see a number of black atheists who come out of religion, and are looking to emulate the same style of leadership. They want to be the next atheist “Messiah”, the next spokesperson. To them, it seems that organizations like BN are so easy to get off the ground, and the teambuilding and teamwork is severely underscored and overlooked.Also, one does not need to be rich to support our organization. Even if you are of a limited means, contributing a few dollars a month or even a year helps a lot. 

Certainly, we appreciate those who donate, and make up for those who don’t/can’t. But there are definitely more people who need to step up. I never write us off as being incapable of support or coming together, but more people need to understand why it is crucial to support us on a regular basis. We can truly uplift each other – especially through this religious climate.

Jacobsen: Mandisa, thank you as always.

Thomas: Thank you.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Interview with René Grigori: Media Liaison (Spokesperson), Southern California Chapter of The Satanic Temple

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/02/05

René Grigori is the Media Liaison (Spokesperson), Southern California Chapter of The Satanic Temple. Here we highlight the work and activities of the Southern California Chapter of The Satanic Temple.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What is the story of coming to TST for you?

René Grigori: I was born into, and raised by, a Catholic family. Most of my schooling was in Catholic schools. Religious studies were paramount in High School where we were being trained as though we were in seminary. All throughout this time I was constantly questioning and doubting the doctrine of the religion.

Throughout most of my life I dabbled with the esoteric. I’ve always felt drawn to those things I was told are forbidden. I studied a number of esoteric matters: Theosophy, Order of the Golden Dawn, Ordo Templi Orientis, Laveyan Satanism, and Buddhism among many traditions.

As an adult I’ve been a staunch Atheist. I joined one Atheist group and, due to internal conflicts, I founded another group called the Riverside Atheists and Freethinkers (RAFT). Throughout much of this time I noticed a lot of cliques forming within the Atheist community. After some time the fractures I saw led me to consider altering where I stood on certain matters. In time I turned the group over to a triumvirate leadership allowing me to step out of the grind and give more thought to how I wanted to develop as a person.

Prior to turning the group over I had been hearing about The Satanic Temple(TST), and a number of their escapades so I decided to look into their religion a bit more. I was also checking out something called Secular Buddhism at the same time. Sadly, the folks promoting Secular Buddhism kept getting into the supernatural (something that I tend to avoid). However, everything I saw in TST just clicked for me: their mission statement, the 7 tenets, the literary perspective of Satan as the noble hero, etc…. Eventually, I decided I had to join and get in this religion. So far, it seems this was the best decision, aside from marrying my wife, that I ever made.

Jacobsen: How do most in Southern California tend to come to TST?

Grigori: I think every person’s introduction to TST is unique. Some have come, initially, out of curiosity (like myself), others may have seen the documentary: “Hail Satan?”, still others may have been involved in other Satanic traditions and migrated to TST because it better aligned with their values/mindset.

Jacobsen: For The Satanic Temple Southern California, you are the authorized spokesperson. The first thing standing out about TST Southern California is the logo remains much the same with some variation in the overall design. Why this particular design for TST SoCal’s logo? Who designed it?

Grigori: Our logo design was a group effort. We were provided guidelines by TST’s International Council (IC), and one of our Division leaders worked on crafting rough drafts for the rest of us to comment on. Eventually we arrived at something we were all happy with.

Side note: due to the large geographic area our Chapter covers we have broken areas down into Divisions. There are five Divisions corresponding to Ventura County, LA County, Orange County, San Diego, and the Inland Empire. The Chapter leadership and each of the Divisions are run by triumvirates.

Jacobsen: The seven tenets of TST non-theistic Satanism are as follows:

1.  One should strive to act with compassion and empathy toward all creatures in accordance with reason.

2.  The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions.

3.  One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone.

4.  The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo one’s own.

5.  Beliefs should conform to one’s best scientific understanding of the world. One should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit one’s beliefs.

6.  People are fallible. If one makes a mistake, one should do one’s best to rectify it and resolve any harm that might have been caused.

7.  Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word.

When you first came to TST, what were some of the appealing aspects of the tenets guiding the core philosophy of non-theistic Satanism?

Grigori: So prior to joining TST I was quite discouraged by the fracturing I saw in the Atheist community. I think that fracturing was due to nobody having a concise set of guiding principles; Atheism simply a matter of not believing in any gods. I realized that being part of a group with guiding principles was important. When I initially read the tenets all I could think was: “Wow, these tenets encapsulate my thinking perfectly.”. The tenets advocate for compassion and empathy, respecting the autonomy and freedoms of others, they advocate a science based approach to beliefs and knowledge, and there is an emphasis on being responsible for one’s own actions. This all thrilled me.

Jacobsen: TST SoCal has the following as a description:

The mission of The Satanic Temple is to encourage benevolence and empathy among all people, reject tyrannical authority, advocate practical common sense and justice, and be directed by the human conscience to undertake noble pursuits guided by the individual will. Politically aware, Civic-minded Satanists and allies in The Satanic Temple have publicly opposed The Westboro Baptist Church, advocated on behalf of children in public school to abolish corporal punishment, applied for equal representation where religious monuments are placed on public property, provided religious exemption and legal protection against laws that unscientifically restrict women’s reproductive autonomy, exposed fraudulent harmful pseudo-scientific practitioners and claims in mental health care, and applied to hold clubs along side other religious after school clubs in schools besieged by proselytizing organizations.

Obviously, these are more highly active forms of combatting theocratic mentalities and encroachment in schools, in politics, in disciplines in mental health, and scientific literacy in the public sphere. This differs from a number of other groups in which the emphasis remains on base community building and having a sense of common cause, internally. TST takes this externally. What have been some of the forms of activism externally by TST SoCal?

Grigori: So, we do foster community building within our Chapters and associated Friends of Groups (FoGs). Also, because of our tenets we have a sense of common cause. Our external efforts are simply a manifestation of our community’s shared values.

TST SoCal’s primary external focus has been on charitable works. Recently we wrapped up our Toasty Toes campaign where we collected socks, toiletries, and other items to help the homeless during the winter months. We ultimately contributed over $2,000 worth of goods to a variety of charities with that campaign.

Currently, we are focused on another charity drive we are calling: “The Devil’s Food Pantry”. So far we have raised over $1,000 in food goods that we will be donating to St. John’s Episcopal Church in San Bernardino. We collaborated with them in the past with great success and we hope to keep this relationship thriving.

That being said, we are certainly open to any national campaigns sanctioned by the IC. However, charitable works are something we can do all of the time.

Jacobsen: For those things not tackled, yet, what are the concerns in SoCal in regards to the encroachment of theocratic mentalities and activities in the public sphere? Are reproductive rights a big one?

Grigori: Yes, reproductive rights are incredibly important to us. Not only matters like access to abortion, but also the general care and welfare of people which is often overridden by religious objectors. As an example: a cis woman who may want a hysterectomy might be told by her Christian doctor that she should consult with her husband first before the doctor will proceed with any surgery. It should be that person’s decision alone and not anyone else’s; it’s her body after all.

Additionally, we strongly support the LGBTQ+ community which has been marginalized and outright attacked by more evangelical groups. The first event we did as a newly formed Chapter was a march in the San Diego Pride parade. During COVID, this past year, we hosted a virtual Pride for our members. People who respect the autonomy and freedoms of others should always feel accepted; gender identity and sexual orientation should have nothing to do with how we treat, and care for, our fellow human beings.

Jacobsen: There are a number of rules for TST SoCal members. These are great, pragmatic, and common sense solutions to some issues for minority religions, especially non-theistic ones, who already have enough stigma in the United States and don’t need infighting or (more) bad reputation/bad assumptions about them. I have to ask, “What necessitated the creation of the SoCal formulation of rules to you?”

Grigori: Many of our rules are derivative of our tenets. However, there are a number of rules which are there simply to protect our community. The act of identifying ourselves as Satanists can oftentimes lead to scorn and ridicule. So, we work to provide our members with a safe and loving community both online and off.

Jacobsen: The current coverage for TST SoCal: San Diego, Inland Empire, Los Angeles, Ventura County, and Orange County. With those covered, what was the chronology of formation? What are the general demographics, even a qualitative analysis of them?

Grigori: Each of our Divisions started out as Friends of Group (FoG), which are basically groups aligned with TST, but are not officially recognized as Chapters. The long story short is: the IC decided that it might be best if all of the FoGs in SoCal organized under one Chapter. We all agree to that and when the IC granted us Chapter status each of the individual FoGs became a Division within the Chapter.

Our Chapter is incredibly diverse with BIPOC members, LGBTQ+ members, members living either in chronic pain or disabled. I don’t have a breakout of percentages because it is not our objective to manage quotas, however, it is our goal to accept people who align with our tenets and consider themselves to be non-theistic Satanists regardless of their unique makeup; to that end we have a Diversity Committee responsible for ensuring we are open, welcoming, and mindful of the varying mix of members within our community.

Jacobsen: What seem like the next reasonable steps in a) expansion into new divisions and b) combatting other forms of anti-science and theocratic mentalities acted out in the public sphere?

Grigori: With regard to expanding into new Divisions: there are always ongoing discussions as groups outside of our coverage become interested in joining. At this time, there is nothing officially in the works for TST SoCal, but that could change in the future. Our Chapter Heads act as liaisons for several FoGs and our Chapter has good relationships with other Chapters; especially those in Northern California.

As far as combating “anti-science and theocratic mentalities acted out in the public sphere”, we address those on a case by case basis. At the moment, we are all abiding by the best scientific guidance regarding COVID-19. We keep the majority of our discussions online and we’ve had to adapt our rituals to conform to an online format. However, when and where it is safe and makes sense to do so, we will be there to fight the good fight for science based practices and religious plurality in the public sphere.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, René.

Grigori: Thank you. I appreciate the thoughtful, and well researched, questions. It has been a pleasure.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Takudzwa 32 – Freer Expression and the State in Zimbabwe

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/01/31

Takudzwa Mazwienduna is the informal leader of Zimbabwean Secular Alliance and a member of the Humanist Society of Zimbabwe. This educational series will explore secularism in Zimbabwe from an organizational perspectiveand more. Here we talk about Article 61(4) of the Zimbabwean Constitution.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Article 61(4)(a) of the Zimbabwean Constitution (2013) states, “All State-owned media of communication must… be free to determine independently the editorial content of their broadcasts or other communications…”

How does this influence some of the editorial decisions of the “content of their broadcasts or other communications”? In short, is there a boundary between finances provided by the State and the broadcasting content freedom of the producers of content?

Takudzwa Mazwienduna: There is a fair degree of freedom of the press in Zimbabwe. State owned media does give a platform to diverse worldviews and it has never stood in the way of secularist opinions.

Jacobsen: Article 61(4)(b)-(c) states, “All State-owned media of communication must… be impartial… and c. afford fair opportunity for the presentation of divergent views and dissenting opinions.” Are there any other legal or infrastructural frameworks providing the stipulated impartiality and fair opportunity for Zimbabweans?

Let’s say an issue on secularism was being presented to the public, and then the religious leaders and spokespersons were provided the opportunity to come forward and present their case, would a divergent and dissenting view be permitted or sought, e.g., an atheist or a humanist group?

Mazwienduna: The government has actually encouraged secularists to speak out both on national radio and in newspapers. The only instance where freedom of the press is compromised is when it comes to criticism of the government itself. The ruling ZANU PF party has a totalitarian approach to governance such that they crush any opposition with every means possible.

Journalists who criticize the government might go missing or face arbitrary arrest without being given proper legal representation as the current case of Hopewell Chon’ono who is in jail for exposing the government’s corruption or cases like Jestina Mukoko and Patson Dzamara who were abducted and never found again back in the Mugabe days. Other than that, freedom of press is allowed as long as it does not compromise the ZANU PF establishment.

Jacobsen: How does this level of free expression compare to adjacent States: South Africa in the South, Botswana in the West and Southwest, Zambia to the North, and Mozambique to the Northeast and East?

Mazwienduna: Our Northern neighbor Zambia however is not as tolerating to secular views. They even have a ministry of religious affairs. The president of the Zambian Humanists Association Larry Mukwemba Tepa has talked about how Zambian government transitioned from a Humanist approach when Kenneth Kaunda the Civil Rights icon was president in the 1960s and 70s to the theocratic approach it takes today under Edgar Lungu.

The state of secularism in Zambia is at an all time low and it is the worst case scenario in the SADC region. South Africa and Botswana on the other hand are beacons of light upholding both secular and liberal approaches. They are successful democracies not only in the SADC region, but in Africa.

Mozambique on the other hand is an interesting case. The main religion in our Eastern neighbor; the Zimbabwean border town to which I’m native to and grew, is African Traditional Religion. Unlike the totalitarian nature of monotheistic religions like Christianity or Islam, animist traditional beliefs encourage more tolerance.

They have an understanding of how everyone has different beliefs and so embrace diversity. Secularism has never been a problem in Mozambique because of this lack of organized religion and so different views face no opposition in the papers.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Takudzwa.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Interview with Hari Parekh: Volunteer Regional Coordinator, Europe Regional Committee, Young Humanists International

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/01/29

*Interview conducted October 2, 2020*

Hari Parekh, has worked in the field of psychology for over four years. He obtained his BA (Hons) degree in Psychology and Criminology at the University of Northampton in 2015, and his MSc in Forensic and Criminological Psychology at the University of Nottingham in 2016. He has worked for the student sector of Humanists UK, holding roles of President and President Emeritus. Following this, he is the current European Chair/Volunteer Regional Coordinator for Young Humanists International, and the Volunteers Manager for Faith to Faithless. He is consistently invited to universities to talk about the psychological difficulties relating to apostasy. Here we catch up and reflect on Humanism in the UK and in Europe.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Okay, so, we have done an interview before. We have known each other for, at least, a couple of years or of each other for a few years now. We are both deeply involved in our own national humanist and skeptic communities and scene. There’s a lot of context and interwoven networks.

I thought I’d reach out and get a retrospective of Humanists International and Young Humanists International happening virtually this year due to the current pandemic. You are the European Working Chair or the Regional Committee Coordinator. What were some things that have stood out in the youth humanist scene in Europe?

Hari Parekh: So, Europe is very lucky in relation to activism within Humanism. In that, there are a lot of fabulous people doing a lot of great work from Germany to Norway to Italy to Spain to Lithuania, Poland, even parts of Russia are calming down.

There’s a lot of good work in relation to nationalistically highlighting injustices within one’s own nation and then being able to highlight it. The rights of people who are LGBTQ+ in Poland and Lithuania at the moment are quite stark at the moment.

There is a lot of good work happening by activists to highlight the issues that then causes. The reason why we’re lucky, though, within Europe, we are able to work or act, or demonstrate, or do things in activism, without the worry of being sentenced or killed, or abused, as a result of it.

The legal consequences are much lower than the ramifications in places like Africa, Asia, and the States to be fair. As a result, there are pockets in Europe and the UK who are doing formal good work. I think in a country like mine. The issue: How do you bring unity to people that aren’t able to come to together in that way?

A lot of activism done in Europe or singularly are the way things have been. What are we going to rally towards? Because it is a difficult question about purpose and the point of activism in Europe. If we’re not having the stresses of being killed, it creates a problem with people doing good work uniformly while creating a different question.

A lot of work is being done that’s good. It is doing more together; we have only just started.

Jacobsen: In regards to some of the political landscape and social landscape seen in different areas in Europe, they do stand out to someone coming from North America because the news sources continually report on issues around LGBTI equality in various areas, in other words regression.

We can think of Orban in Hungary with direct attacks on some of these fundamental tenets of not only human rights, but also Humanism. As well, the political instability around Brexit and the kind of impacts this has on young people’s futures, not only in the United Kingdom, but other countries impacted by the detachment of a major country connected to the European Union, previously.

Parekh: I think what we’re seeing from a bird’s eye view is a lot of the way things are or the politics of the way things are people becoming more and more jaded by the way establishments or organizations have acted when they are in power.

As a result, the growing sense of concern creates a growing sense of “What about me?” and this has filtered itself within the consciousness of European nations and people within it. You can see where that comes from in relation to the difficulties people have now, e.g., inequality is high.

People below the poverty line are increasing daily. What is going on about it? People need to understand why that might be, where that comes from, and how that becomes a thing. Interestingly, therefore, politics and the consensus of public opinion has moved to become a lot more individualistic and nationalistic to protect one’s own before looking after others.

I think that’s, technically, where the culture and the themes of this are going. Interestingly, on top, nationalism, itself, isn’t a bad thing; individuality, in itself, isn’t a bad thing. It has just been used by people of certain dispositions to inculcate hatred, annoyance, further hatred and violence against people of the other.

It has been usurped by people in that way. It creates a climate of unrule and unrest, and ultra-swarthiness within society. You only have to look at the way leaving the European Union from the UK’s perspective has marginalized people, marginalized families, marginalized people beyond its dreams and still continues to do so.

Again, the issue politically, socially is a very sad one, which is, basically, the argument. When we’re in that sensitive climate among people in that sense of frustration, the values of human nature or the values of human roles, or the values of anything like that, then also struggle in itself.

It’s like, “What is going to happen now? What are European nationals going to do in the UK now?” I think it is a very sad state of affairs for anybody involved. Interestingly, there used to be a rise with that.

You only have to look at Poland to reasonably see what’s going on. From a really specific perspective, it is going through a transition one can only lament.

Jacobsen: Now, how is Humanism in the United Kingdom managing this political unrest, internally? For the United Kingdom, internally rather than the region, how is British Humanism managing the political and social unrest in and of itself?

These are factors impacting people’s lives, impacting on the status of respect for science, respect for human rights, and trying to build a culture of scientifically and compassionately informed public policy.

These are a lot of issues that are being just ignored, basically, in public life or in the larger public life in the United Kingdom. I could imagine a lot of British Humanism is taken very seriously. Although, it has been a whirlwind.

Parekh: Even moving through Humanism, I think it provides non-religious people in itself, in the greatest respects, with the perspective of something to hone in on. I think it provides a lot of normal religious people with the perspective that there is an issue here relating very strongly to the values that we hold dear, whether scientifically, rationally, etc.

I think the concern, from an outsider looking in, is the bottleneck of the people that are involved in that at the moment. The diversity and the way that those groups function and run at the moment. There’s a certain type of non-religious person that goes to those local groups at the moment.

The older generation of, generally, white religious aren’t going to it. So, there’s still a lot of work for non-religion in relation to reaching out to a wider audience of people and being more involved to get those people’s views in, but the current climate has provided a greater opportunity for non-religion in the UK to be more understandable rather than being a bit hooey.

In that, rather than being seen as being on the circumference of society, for example, there has been a real good point of putting those values cherished of science and ethical standpoints at the heart of these debate to really understand what is going on.

Now, whether those views are taken as serious, whether those views are understood by others, whether the views are accepted by others, the point: as long as those values are represented in the conversations, then that’s half the battle there.

Strength through the Brexit debate; strength through the coronavirus pandemic. Those are the values coming through about a sense of community, support. That seems to be where I’d put it at the moment.

Does it give us a bigger role to play? Yes. Does it give us more scope to do more stuff? Yes. Are we in a position where we are doing all we can do with it? Slowly, we’re getting there. As you know, non-religion within nations has a very push-and-pull relationship.

As it peaks, we will take advantage of the peak. As it troughs, we build ourselves back up again. That is the peak when it comes to it. I think we’re in a good place for it. It’s not as invisible as it used to be. There are more and more people talking about these issues.

There are more and more people of a diverse nature talking about these issues as well. That always helps. We’re moving non-religion or Humanism from its stereotypical view of being a Westernized, white agenda, when it isn’t. It is hardly that.

Jacobsen: I should note. Humanism and Ethical Culture, and similar philosophical orientations, are much, much older in the United Kingdom than in other countries. It has a longer tradition there.

So, it has real roots in a lot of modern thought becoming a legitimate tradition in that sense. It has a lot more ability to catch in the culture because it has been around in the culture. It has steeped in the stew longer.

Do you think that has helped alongside some of these divisive figures and divisive ideologies coming forward, ethnic or otherwise, political, etc., in the United Kingdom? In terms of people looking at them, “I don’t want that,” and looking for more universalistic and naturalistic viewpoints with Humanism and the like.

Parekh: It does help. If a perspective is always able to intertwine itself in a culture, then it will always do better. You only have to look at the way an organized religion like Hinduism seeped itself into the culture to see it.

You can, therefore, see its popularity within that nation-state (India). Humanism here in the UK is a notion of people know it exists. People know that it is around. People know that a lot of the public figures these days are aligned to those values and ethical principles.

Those public figures do a good job, at times, of talking about those views to get them out there. What I think is still an issue is the threat response to non-religious people in general anyway, I don’t think that really changes.

Threat response to a non-religious person within Nigeria or within Lagos, or in the Philippines, to here. It may not be as extreme. However, the reaction and the threat is still not that different. That is something even with the longstanding traditions of British Humanism, and how long it has been there; I think that will sadly still be a part of its acceptance and judgment on it.

So, yes, does it help? Of course. Does it allow people to understand or allow public figures to talk about it freely and get the word out there? Yes, it does. Does it still have the issues the other nations have? Yes, it does, but just not as extreme.

It is still a stress response to be a None. I think what I am trying to say is being somewhat morphed into the traditions of a nation doesn’t make it accept you within the culture of the nation. I think there is still a long ways to still being accepted, perhaps.

Jacobsen: What about the 18-to-35-year-olds? The youth culture of Humanism. Because if you look at the old guard, who are no longer with us, in fact, people like Bertrand Russell. People like Albert Einstein in some respects.

Figures who are seen as towering philosophical or scientific, or political, figures really imbibe humanist principles without necessarily wearing that badge at all times and all places. For instance, Einstein is quoted as an agnostic, as an atheist, as a pantheist.

It depends on the person he is talking to and the point in his life. That is a very different Humanism, the old guard Humanism, compared to the newer brand of Humanism. There’s just a lot of different people from different types of backgrounds coming into the fray, which is showing its universalism in practice.

Now, that the principles have been more established and have more of a traditional stance. How do you see this playing out in the next few years for youth humanists?

Parekh: The 18-to-35s are an interesting bunch because we’re the ones pushing those boundaries. I think that really there is an argument there. I was talking to someone not too long ago. The discussion was, “Do they want a society in which religion is no longer a thing? It is just Humanism or non-religion, then it runs its course. The way the 18-to-35s are making it.”

As is shown, my research is showing non-religiosity is increasing. Is that the kind of trajectory that we’re going with religion? Religion not dying out per se, but becoming less of a feature, for example. I don’t think so.

I don’t think that’s the way Humanism or non-religion should be hoping for or expecting. It is a very personal view. My view: So long as non-religion or Humanism, or people leaving their faith, has acceptance (for that perspective), that’s all that one could ask for.

There are more and more and more religious people who are quite happy with the view or quite soothed or stable or alright with the view of people in relation to faith and non-faith, etc. I think it’s that acceptance that we should be working towards, not just domination of the landscape.

With the acceptance that we can engender, again, there’s no issue with being religious at the end of the day. It is an ideology the way non-religion or Humanism is. It’s what you do. If you have an ideology used for hate, that’s the issue.

If we can reduce the level of threat people find within religious communities, then there won’t be much of the same issue in relation to blasphemy. It won’t be seen as such a bad thing. Therefore, we’re progressing from the old guard of religious people threatened by people leaving.

That’s where my view is where things can go. For the 18-to-35s, more people are able within that age range, for example, to identify the way that they want to or share the way that they think their beliefs are.

To be fair, that’s a great thing. It is a very Nawaz-ian view of things, where religion needs to adapt itself as we go along rather than sticking to its guns. So, that’s the projection, I think. The more acceptance we get; the more likely we are to have a standing within society and to be okay with that.

That’s part of the battle at the moment: Are we represented? Are we not? Are we heading into a bottleneck? Are we not? The more we are accepted than we are at the moment. That’s when those discussions dissipate because we’re alright with it.

That’s where those religious people have gotten. Because we’re all waiting for acceptance. I think it’s exciting, definitely.

Jacobsen: I have a worked a bit in terms of having some dialogues, some interbelief dialogues, with individuals who work as ordinary theologians, moderate people, who take their ideological stances and belief structures in a serious way, but not in an externally imposing way.

The proselytizing, the fundamentalism, isn’t truly part of just the way that they act in the world and believe in regards to their religion. Those people and individuals in Canada and elsewhere are extremely important in combatting very serious issues of extremism, whether along political-ethnic lines such as white supremacism and neo-Nazism or in the forms of religious fundamentalism, as such, including more extreme versions of things like Jihadi terrorism.

These kinds of outgrowths of extreme ideologies that lead to bad behaviour. What do you think are some of the importance(s) of taking those middleground(s) of belief leaders – let’s say – of religious communities to build a network, a safety network, to kind of put up a wall and prevent young people, traditionally men, from entering into these toxic ideologies – ethnic, political, or religious?

Parekh: I think it’s really important for non-religious and humanist people to take part in those discussions. Not just for the soul reason of being included, but also for the opportunity to show: We’re still human.

I think at the grounding of all the faiths out there, all the religions out there, etc. The need for humanity and the need for that principle, usually, comes out and trumps a lot of stuff within the religious faiths as well.

We only have to look at the way communities have joined together during this pandemic to see humanistic values, from the Dawkins perspective, trump the differences of religion and non-religion.

If we take that perspective, then it’s imperative to involve all those groups in the discussion. It is not simply supporting and taking part, which are all good things. We are role modelling the fact that just because you’re non-religious or humanist; it doesn’t mean that you’re not a good person or a bad person.

We’re, basically, taking a step to argue that we don’t fit that narrative of what religious ideologies have idealized non-religious people to be like. The moment we’re able to do that. Then we’ll be able to work with those community leaders in how non-religious people are seen, treated, and shunned, and see how non-religious people are treated as a result.

So, if we can change the religious people to reach the level of threat of non-religious people, then we can, hopefully, support the community leaders when they talk with their communities and see how non-religious people are all bad.

Some people when they leave their religion take a lot of stuff with them. It is not as though they become the embodiment of Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens. With regard to extremism and things like that, again, it is one of those where humanity needs to prevail.

So, whatever perspective you hold, religious people, community leaders, and co., will be against anyone who wants to harm anyone else anyway. They do a lot of work now, anyway, to stamp that out.

From my perspective, it is reducing the level of perspective of the threat of non-religious people at the moment. It is getting to the point of non-religiosity as being quite acceptable. Once it is normalized, that’s part of the issue.

Jacobsen: What has been your experience with the youth humanist community, on an individual level, on a social, communal level?

Parekh: Lovely, there’s such a broad range of people with different experiences and different perspectives. You’ve got people who are going to university. You’ve got people brought up in the same way, who are passionate and driven to do amazing things and incredibly intellectually bright and fabulously driven.

Young humanists throughout Europe, for example, are all really dedicated, enthusiastic, and really interesting, lovely people to be around to be fair. They’re quite a bunch [Laughing].

Jacobsen: Will we be seeing more of you in the coming years?

Parekh: We’ve got the first conference. You’ll have seen me through that. I’ve got a campaign. I think with the research head and apostasy. I don’t think I’m going far.

Jacobsen: What should people keep in mind for this conference coming up? What happened at this inaugural European Humanist Month with the lovely, wonderful, and great, Young Humanists International?

Parekh: So, the issue with Europe, as I said at the start, with the activism is it’s very hard to get people together with “What do we do together as a whole?” There is a consensus of being in a good position of activists not getting killed. We are not in those positions.

Therefore, it creates a bit of apathy with respect to activism as a whole. When I started in Young Humanists International for the European sector, the problem was “What do you do?” I struggled for a year toying with this: “What is the point of activism in Europe as a whole when we don’t have these issues?”

When I released my research in January, 2020, I realized there are many nations in Europe still holding blasphemy laws. The problem with that is that’s seen as hypothetical when we challenge other nation-states, especially within the Middle East in relation to their blasphemy laws.

Because the response given often right away is, “What leg do you have to stand on when you still have them?” I think that’s a poignant point. People aren’t being killed. They are being fined. “It’s just a fine. What’s the big deal?”

The issue is it matters in principle. In Europe, we have talked about the traditionalism of Humanism. With all of that history, the fact that we had these outdated laws is a real principle issue. What I then did, I was talking to the UK branch of Humanism saying, “Guys,” when the pandemic started, “We don’t need to ruin it. Let’s just push it online.”

Every Wednesday in October, on the 7, 14, 21, and 28, we have a speaker on LGBTI+ issues, apostasy issues, and looking at blasphemy as a campaign, which we are running now. Hopefully, we can hand this onto the next nation of Humanism, e.g., Belgium and then Norway.

So, every nation-state annually holds an online conference with speakers that matter to them. It is really important that we do it and are sharing that young people doing good in these areas. So, we can get people excited about doing things that matter to us.

It is the first thing that we did in Europe as a whole for 5 or 6 years together. It makes it even more special.

Jacobsen: What helped bring these groups of individualists, as a culture, to an individual event for a month?

Parekh: “What helps is showing these are issues important to young people now, why wouldn’t you want to be a part of this?” It worked. The last event was on a campaign. On the first point, I realized that in Northern Ireland; they still have a blasphemy law.

Basically, the last event of the conference is informing our members that this is a campaign young people in Europe can support or run against. I think in 2008 Gordon Brown did it. Northern Ireland are still lagging in that.

My argument is if we can run a campaign this year, then there are other nations with these issues anyway. It gives Europe a purpose to stand behind. Whoever takes after me, at least, it gives them a standpoint and a purpose to do the job and to have a portfolio and template for Europe rather than being told, “Good luck.”

There is an annual conference. There is a campaign against blasphemy laws. It is enough for anyone taking this position within a year. I am very proud and happy with the support among Humanists UK for all of the work that they have done.

Hopefully, we have set a template. Basically, this is a 5-year plan for European Young Humanism, “How are we going to do it? How are we going to manage it? This is what the next person is going to do.”

When the next person of YHI comes in, then they can know what to do. It is a really good way to leave Europe rather than passing the buck. 

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Extensive Interview with Jade Webber and Chalice Blythe of The Satanic Temple: Co-Chapter Head, TST Albany; Former Member, International Council

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/01/23

*Interview conducted June 6, 2020.*

*A number of interviews have had processing delays for a number of reasons. Apologies to both audience and interviewees in advance. These interviews, in terms of the information & crystallized views of the period – and the respect to the individuals taking the time to converse with a stray Canadian, will be progressively published now.*

Chalice Blythe is a former Member of the International Council of The Satanic Temple (TST). Jade Webber is Co-Chapter Head of The Satanic Temple Albany (TST Albany). It is a “non-theistic Satanic religious organization and IRS-recognized church.” Its fundamental principles amount to seven, as follows:

  1. One should strive to act with compassion and empathy towards all creatures in accordance with reason.
  2. The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions.
  3. One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone.
  4. The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo one’s own.
  5. Beliefs should conform to our best scientific understanding of the world. We should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit our beliefs.
  6. People are fallible. If we make a mistake, we should do our best to rectify it and remediate any harm that may have been caused.
  7. Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word.

Here we talk about the personal stories and views of Webber and Blythe, including the Albany Chapter of TST (TST Albany), various forms of activism, Christian Nationalism, and resources available online and in community.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Jade or Chalice, what is some background in religion for you, whether individually or within community? How does this tie up with The Satanic Temple?

Jade Webber: We were not theistic to begin with. My mom let me find my own way. I have tried literally every religion. I got books from the library. Nothing really fit with me. I ended up falling on atheism for a long time.

Then I want to say around 2017. I, accidentally, found myself at the headquarters in Salem at The Satanic Temple. I went back to Albany and thought, “Man, I hope something like that is around here.”

That’s when I joined TST. That’s my story.

Chalice Blythe: Yes, my backstory is pretty basic. I was generic Christian. I don’t even know what sect we were, very generic. We followed the New Testament. It was, “Meh, we don’t care about it.” So, I didn’t learn about the Old Testament until much later in life.

I came into TST later in my teen years. I knew I wasn’t a Christian since I was 11. I stuck with atheism for a while. I looked into other religions. I was very familiar with Satanism by reading The Satanic Bible by Anton LaVey [Ed. Anton Szandor LaVey, born Howard Stanton Levey], who founded the Church of Satan.

I read that when I was a teenager, in fact a few times over the years. I didn’t identify as a Satanist until TST came along in 2014. The reason for that was I knew the foundations of Satanism. I agree with a lot of Anton LaVey had set up with The Church of Satan.

For me, I had hesitated identifying as a Satanist because the way The Church of Satan had some political views and antiquated views towards women. It didn’t flesh well with me. What we understood to be modern Satanism was understood at that time was how the Church of Satan was defining it, so, I was fine with being an atheist.

Discovering The Temple of Satan in 2014, and reading the tenets, and knowing the way in which they evolved what we understood as modern Satanism, and how this was applied to not only how we were affirming out rights in society, but also taking away the restrictions and the views from antiquated times, it spoke to me.

I like to say, “Satanism was my coming home religion.” It just made sense.

Jacobsen: What about the current context of religion in the United States? Religion in the United States has been an outlier in all developed nations. Its level of religiosity. Its kind of religiosity. It has been so powerful as a social and political force.

One could look at it as an economic force simply looking at the wealth with the megachurch pastors, for instance, and the Prosperity Gospel preachers and other grandiose personalities or outright charlatans. What is the response of The Satanic Temple to this political context of many people’s lives in the United States?

Blythe: Our response has been that we’re obviously against the encroachment, and abusing the separation of church and state. They’ve, essentially, violated that. What we have found, people are very much about this encroachment with a mentality of us versus them.

People’s rights being over others until the Satanists demand their rights be respected as well. What you’ll see TST has done, we are not being trolls. We are not demanding special rights. We are demanding our rights are respected as well.

What happens as a minority religion, especially one such as Satanism, you remind people as a religious group, as a religious people, that you have the same rights as others. Then it makes people think about what rights.

They’ve been sitting on privilege. That their rights are better or their ideas about the world. They have the majority. So, it means that they’re the law of the land. But the way of our country should be based on the Constitution.

There shouldn’t be any person ruling over another. So, when you have Evangelicals claiming that they should get special treatment, they think that they’re the majority; so, it should benefit them. It does benefit them. They don’t realize that it should benefit us, as Satanists, too.

It is asking people whether they want those special treatments to be upheld and go into effect because what will benefit an Evangelical Christian will benefit a Satanist. A good example is the invocations campaigns.

At city council meetings, they have a moment of silence or a prayer before council meetings. When we ask to partake in that, that’s when everyone had their foot out, “How is this possible? A Satanist wants to come and give an invocation. This is just for Christians.”

Jacobsen: Ha!

Blythe: It’s like, “No, no, this is not what this should be about. You don’t get exceptions or special treatment, especially under the law.” That’s not what it should be. We have been challenging that concept and that encroachment, not only highlighting the encroachment happening, but also showing their tactics and how they go about it.

Because they can’t get around it. They want to insert themselves in the public forum. We can do that with them.

Jacobsen: What is the interpretation when you’re making an equal rights argument? To me, it makes perfect sense. In the United States, religious privilege is enormous. So, if someone is saying to a Christian, fundamentalist Evangelical Christian, for instance, “I believe Satanists deserve equal rights with Evangelical Christians, whether for invocations or otherwise,” how is that interpreted?

Both in the responses Evangelical leaders are giving or in the rhetoric they bring to the pulpit regarding “Satanists.”

Blythe: Usually, they state we are not a religion. This becomes an argument about what constitutes a religion. For those of a theistic viewpoint, first, they try to get us on the fact that “you don’t get rights because you believe in a literal Devil and eat babies.”

Then you tell them, “That’s not at all what we’re about.” When you say you’re atheistic, then they state that since you’re atheistic; you aren’t a religion. They try to argue their way out. It is never about their response to the equal opportunity/equal rights argument.

It is always about “you aren’t a religion” argument. Because we are atheistic Satanists. They want to point to us as a hoax; and, atheism isn’t a religion. Atheism is not a religion; it is the lack of.

But because we have an atheistic viewpoint, we use the literary figure of Satan, which doesn’t make us any less of a religion. Going back to the invocation example, in Scottsdale, Arizona, we, recently, just got in a case.

A case went before the court. The court established that we are, in fact, a religion. We didn’t get the outcome that we wanted as far as Scottsdale getting away with what they did. One of the things that court established was that we are a religion.

In addition to getting our tax ID status, we are a religion. They can no longer use that tactic. It will be interesting to see how that goes moving forward. The court system with Jane Doe and reproductive rights.

Now, they can no longer have that tactic. I don’t know what tactic they’ll use since we’ve been affirmed. We are not only affirmed because we say we are affirmed. Now, we have the courts validating that as well.

Jacobsen: How is this played out in micro in Albany, Jade? The conflict between the way you’re making arguments for equal rights based on recognized federal status, for instance, and then the way this is heard by those they would deem the opposition either by themselves or others.

Webber: For the most part, our community has been fairly open. Albany is kind of forward thinking. So, when we interact with the public, we haven’t had pushback for a lot of conflict as far as that. It hasn’t been a real effect for us.

Jacobsen: What are the issues in Albany, even in a progressive area?

Webber: Our issues: The one that we are currently facing. I’m not sure if I am supposed to speak on it, as it is currently ongoing. Other than that, there haven’t been major issues.

Jacobsen: Chalice, you did a famous interview with Jim Jeffries. You have interviews elsewhere. Also, you’ve had longstanding work, which is almost unique with direct opposition, in an area where there isn’t a lot of pushback – which is the minds of children.

So, you ran the After School Satan program. Two questions there: What is the After School Program or programs? What is the development of them now?

Blythe: So, After School Satan clubs are meant to contrast with what is going on in the school system now with the church groups coming in and establishing a presence as an after school club in utilizing their placement there to evangelize children.

They use those children to recruit and proselytize to other kids. When you have something like that, when you look at the purpose of having after school clubs, there is a lot of need for there to be activities through the schools. No matter what that is.

It is also a form of childcare as well. A lot of parents rely on after school programs to take care of one extra half hour or 45 minutes for after the school day to go to work and then come and get their kids.

What we have been seeing with the Good News Clubs, the childhood evangelism fellowship has a goal. They have a goal to get into the school system. It is where children see things as “I go here to learn. Anything that I learn here is true.”

They also use these school teachers the children are dealing with during the day and then they have them as the teachers leading the Good News Club at night. The kids are not differentiating between school fact and what they are learning at the Good News Club.

We are talking about old school people who believe in fire, hell, damnation. They are teaching the concept of sin. If you disobey or if you don’t do something that you’re supposed to, then it is a sin. You can go to hell for sinning.

These are the things children are learning. That was made possible by the Supreme Court because the school grounds are a limited public forum and these groups have every right to be there to express for their First Amendment rights.

The After School Club is meant to contrast and provide a program based on science, logic, reason, and to teach the curriculum developed by people who have Master’s degrees in education. One of them through Harvard University.

It is meant to not be a religious teaching program, but one developing kids’ ability to understand empathy, reason, critical thinking, logic, science, and learning about the world. We feel that by being able to provide that; it is something the parents have the ability to decide, “I want my kid to be in an after school program, but not evangelized and taught that they will burn in hell forever if they sin.”

They can have a kid in a program like ours, which teaches the opposite and is the opposite. We are not proselytizing. We are merely providing an alternative.

Jacobsen: In the United States, the major fault line is not stated as often as it should be, especially around the efforts to repeal things, e.g., primarily women’s bodies. It is particularly women’s rights that are under attack. They have been for a long time.

I note a lot of the attacks in the United States with the Trump Administration have been attempts to restrict the access women have to abortion clinics and the various forms of reproductive healthcare, especially the women who tend to most need it: Native American women, African American women, and poor white women, in general.

I know there are clinics that are more plentiful than abortion clinics, for instance, which are, essentially, Christian centres that work to talk women out of getting abortions in the first place or to provide misinformation, so an individual woman can make an informed consenting decision about what to do with her body.

What are same counter forms of activism TST is providing along these lines as well? Because this is a very serious area of human rights violations.

Webber: They had this court case going back-and-forth with this one member (TST). They were standing up for a girl who was giving out pamphlets, which she had to review. They would not give her care. Unless, she reviewed these documents, which were stating their values, e.g., “Life begins at conception,” etc.

Blythe: What TST has done in the realm of reproductive rights is utilizing our own tenets of our body as inviolable subject to our own will alone and basing our care based on the best scientific knowledge available, we have exempted ourselves from some things our state has mandated onto us and for our ability to have access to this medical care, which we feel is not only scientifically illiterate but unnecessary for that care, so violating our religious tenets.

So, in the case of Missouri, where we had the two cases for reproductive rights, they have a 72-hour mandatory waiting period. Plus, they have to give anybody seeking an abortion a reading of state propaganda (basically) with life beginning at conception and that getting an abortion is against “Creator.”

It is shaming women out of making a decision. This is what you were talking about earlier with these pregnancy crisis centres. They pose themselves as being medical centres. They provide ultrasounds.

They say that they’re a clinic for anyone who is pregnant, but they’re truly set up of people of strong religious persuasion. Their entire goal and mission is to prevent women from making informed decisions.

They shame them into making a different decision about their medical care, which they would otherwise would not if they had access to actual medical information. Essentially, it is state-mandated ‘information,’ giving scientifically illiterate information.

We don’t need the 72 hours to contemplate this information, which we know to be false. We should not be subject to reading the information. We should not be subject to have the 72-hour mandatory waiting period, which is the excuse they use to have it.

Saying, “No, I am making a medical decision for myself. You are going to give me this procedure now.” We had two members of TST who gave the exemption letter. We have the exemption letter. It is available online and anyone can review those if you want to see what those look like.

But we’re saying, “Because of our religious views, we are exempt from these rules.” So, one of them is a case still in the court system delayed because of coronavirus. It is in legal limbo. Everyone is in legal limbo.

Also, there are fetal burial laws. I’m not sure if you’re familiar with those. Indiana and Arkansas have passed laws requiring healthcare facilities to bury or cremate fetal remains. That would be any fetal remains, even an ectopic pregnancy or a miscarriage.

They are requiring at the women’s expense or the care facilities expense to treat this tissue as an individual and requiring us to treat the tissue as an individual to get burial or cremation rather than seeing it as medical waste and being disposed of as such.

We’ve created an exemption [Ed. many exemptions extant here: https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/rrr-campaigns] to that as well. Because it violates our religious beliefs that this tissue is separate from our bodies and treat it based on the best scientific knowledge that we have rather than treating it as a religious ritual, acknowledging it as fetal tissue.

For a fetal burial, it is fetal tissue. We will treat it as medical waste. Also, the State cannot make mandates that we have a religious ritual for something that we aren’t acknowledging or otherwise wouldn’t do so.

Those are some things that we have done about this encroaching or this barrage of these Evangelical senators and lawmakers coming in and telling women, and people of childbearing potentia,l what they can and cannot do with their bodies and medical care.

Jacobsen: This is a remarkable level of encroachment.

Blythe: Oh, it’s more, a violation not encroachment.

Jacobsen: The mentality sounds as if not only that women are lesser than, but the idea that women are unable to make an independent choice. It’s the idea that women aren’t rational, moral independent actors. It requires all this infrastructure, “Are you sure?”

All of these are the question, “Are you sure?”, in various forms.

Webber: I experienced this for the past five years trying to get my tubes tied. They keep telling me that I’m too young. I should wait. I said to them, “People younger than me can make the decision to have a child, which is a lifelong decision.”

Jacobsen: [Laughing] That’s a brilliant response.

Webber: I’m 30 now. I’m going to go back and give it another try.

Blythe: I had a really bad health emergency. Essentially, I was growing a tumour the size of my fist inside of my uterus. For the longest time, I said, “Get the hysterectomy, I don’t want children. I’ve been saying it for years.”

I’ve known this since I was in my 20s. Every single time, I go to my gynecologist. I make sure that he noted every single time when I got my annual, “I do not wish to have biological children. I will, at some point, when you guys allow me to, make me permanently unable to have children. I made this choice. I know what I’m talking about.”

They refuse. It is always age. It is always, “You’ll change your mind.” I started developing a tumour. I started to bleed to death leading to hemorrhage. I wanted them to do a procedure, a hysterectomy. They refused. They did an embolization, which ended up saving my life.

The reason they did that because “You’re still so young. You may want childrens ome day.” It’s like: The embolization was killing part of my uterus. The tumour is no longer growing, but I still will develop cancer.

I’ll have to get examined for a very long time for the tumour to grow back. Then they will eventually let me get a hysterectomy. But when I was in a state of actively dying, I asked them to save my life with a hysterectomy.

But they did it so I kept some of my uterus. With the embolization, I can get pregnant, but the damage to my uterus is so bad. I could get a miscarriage and bleed to death from that. Again, whether it’s our decisions to end a pregnancy or to make it so we do not have a pregnancy, it’s too full.

You cannot make these decisions when you get to this state, a pregnancy. But we are not going to provide any education in the system and make it difficult to get contraception or sex education.

It is a disservice and even more of a disservice of whatever community; the racial disparity and access in education is absolutely devastating.

Jacobsen: This ties very well – and thank you both for sharing – into an entertaining and effective of activism to combat these that, I think, The Satanic Temple does better than anyone in the United States. One has to do with the Ten Commandments in big old stone tablets followed by a statue of Baphomet. We’ll cover that next.

But the representation of the fetus as a fetish or a fetish item, or an object of fetishization. This was a brilliant presentation around adults who are members of TST or friends of; I’m not sure who was who.

They were dressed up with baby faces, diapers, pouring milk on one another, and making whining noises that would simulate something like a crying baby or a newborn, for instance.

These are dramatic. These are artistic. These are very effective because they force the question. “Why do they do this?” I think Chalice, you were part of it.

Blythe: Those were two demonstrations by the former Detroit chapter. Those were the brainchild of the Detroit chapter. It is no longer a chapter. They are a friend of. With the departure of Jex Blackmore, that chapter went dormant and no longer existed.

It was a collective effort of a chapter that no longer exists. I could get you in contact with the person who created those, Shiva Honey. She was the mastermind behind those demonstrations. They are more localized chapters that made demonstrations.

They were incredibly effective. So when we talk about activism, especially with what TST has done in the past or what we are currently doing, I think we are very good at having two different types of conversations.

It is making a point in two different ways. One is making a point via the theatricals. You have the women and milk. These are shocking. They shock your senses and make you ask, “What the fuck are they doing?”

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Blythe: [Laughing].

Webber: [Laughing].

Blythe: Whether you like the answer or not, it paints another type of imagery onto an issue that makes people uncomfortable. It makes them, maybe, not see their righteous standpoint on something as pure as they think it is; the fetishization of babies, the idea behind them, Shiva could probably speak more eloquently about it.

The results of having that image, especially because there were counter-protests to the events, like at Planned Parenthood. You have these demonstrators who say, “Killing babies is wrong.” They are putting up these images of fetuses.

They are exalting them and fetishizing them. They are turning them into something that they are not. They are facing the reality of what they were doing not from their view or just our view. They were distraught and didn’t like it.

They saw what they were doing to people just trying to get access to reproductive care. Also, another thing of activism or asserting our rights with the exemption letters, our members asserting rights, and affirming their beliefs in the tenets, and having the ability to not be as subjected to State or federal mandated violation of our rights based on another person’s viewpoint.

That’s how we do it. It is the visual and the practical fields to it.

Jacobsen: You only hope you could save some costs by living near to a dairy farm or something.

Blythe: [Laughing] It’s very expensive.

Jacobsen: It’s not only a violation of women’s bodies. I think you’re right to correct me earlier. It’s not just an encroachment. It’s a violation.

Also, it is making the State a tool of a particular religion and only one interpretation of that particular religion in order to violate women’s rights.

Blythe: That’s part of Project Blitz. I don’t know if you’re familiar with it.

Jacobsen: What is Project Blitz?

Blythe: It is a group effort by people of the Evangelical persuasion to institute laws, bills, basically through the legal system, to advance their point of view. So, why are all these bills being passed?

States are taking each others’ bills, “This bill was able to get passed.” It is, basically, a playbook of benign measures of getting things passed and under the radar. So, people aren’t aware this is happening

All of a sudden. They try to do something like have access to certain medical care. Women need access to abortion or contraceptives. Then it becomes an “In God We Trust” thing. They add up. You Google “Project Blitz.” It is a real thing.

These are commonplace. They are religious people affecting everyday Americans, even people of a Christian or theistic viewpoint and aren’t even Evangelical. It is very smart, viciously smart, by making America theocratic bit-by-bit, piece-by-piece.

Jacobsen: That’s the theocratic impulse.

Blythe: Yes, so, they pass bills to gain foothold in states and then mis-use religious freedom to justify discrimination and use this to tear down separation of church and state. Then they establish America as a Christian nation. That’s the goal.

Jacobsen: It’s easy to tear down a wall when you’re playing Jenga and taking it down bit-by-bit. I’m not surprised. When you look at the Discovery Institute, they had the Wedge Strategy document.

It was to try to ram through a (battering) ram to skip all academic procedure by going from expert professorial research down to graduate and undergraduate students and down to high school level in order to develop robust educational programs, in this case biology.

They decided to go straight to the high schools with Intelligent Design or Intelligent Design Creationism. Some of the big names on that were Philip Johnson who died last September, William Dembski who formed the information theoretic form of it, and Michael Behe who formed the molecular biology form of it.

It seems as if the same form with the attempts to ram through and make a lot of these moves a lot easier. I think this is a very effective and insidious form of imposing theocracy. It can go down to the community level too with members of community googling your name and stuff like this.

Blythe: The reason this violation exists is because we have this saying; we’ve come to know of this Project Blitz, “It is a very subtle and very slow-moving, but effective, way to create supremacy where we live.”

You pass things. You use your religious freedom; you mis-use it. It is using it to justify discrimination, then you tear down the separation of church and state to establish the Christian nation. Part of the reason we do the things we do – and to some of the history, we are Satanists and are a religious group.

When we see these things and it affects us, our ability to be religious people and to practice our religion freely, and to be able to live our lives according to our tenets. We can’t do nothing. So, that’s what separates us from other satanic organizations.

We get compared to the Church of Satan all of the time. But we are more active; Project Blitz is a good reason why we fight things the way we do. If it is the law, then it doesn’t mean it is holy, right, or just.

It doesn’t mean that it isn’t a violation of our freedoms and our right to be religious people. So, when religious people are asserting their religious rights and the “right” religious people, then you come in to re-evaluate if you want to open those doors.

Because they will do anything to keep us out. In that, they also start to affirm the separation between church and state. That’s why they coined the term “Lucien’s Law.” It is the idea of when you see a certain group coming in and trying to break down the doors of church and state.

Then you bring in the Satanists. Then they will re-evaluate if they want that privilege under the guise of religious freedom because that means freedom for everyone. You talked about the Baphomet statue. That’s a good example.

Seeing the encroachment on the public square, Satanists say, “All or nothing. Either representation of all creeds, colours, religions, faiths, representing the people in their differences and nuances, or you don’t allow for that representation to be there at all. Then you do your thing, which is not the business of religion.”

So, we try to erect a Baphomet statue. All of the sudden, everyone is wondering, “Do we want religious symbols on state property?”

Jacobsen: How much did the Baphomet statue cost?

Blythe: Wow – it was a lot. It is a full bronze statue. I can give you a ballpark. I don’t have an exact figure. It was well over $100,000. It is beautiful. I don’t know if you have been able to see it. Once the headquarters in Salem open up, I would recommend seeing it.

It is a big beautiful bronze statue. It is a sight to see. That much bronze is expensive [Laughing]. You have to pay the artist too.  

Jacobsen: For any millionaires wanting to donate money, there are many states needing more statues of Baphomet.

Blythe: Yes, I was going to say. We have the mold still, so we could probably create replicas a little bit cheaper than the original.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Blythe: So, if we want, we could make more.

Jacobsen: What was the reaction from Christians and fellow Satanists about the statue of Baphomet? I think it’s great.

Webber: I loved it. I remember when it was behind in the shed. You could go out back. They open the shed doors. There was Baphomet sitting behind a shiny door. The art is gorgeous. It is impressive. You can see it. You can sit on its lap!

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Blythe: You can do a lot of things on that lap.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Webber: [Laughing].

Blythe: I remember seeing the original drawings and the concept art that they were releasing prior to it being on the bill. I am really upset that I couldn’t make it to the unveiling, because being unable to see it in public for the first time and for what it represented.

It is one of the most unique pieces of art that exists, but it is a unique piece of art that has so much power behind it. It is not just appreciating the art itself. It is appreciating what it represents. The first time I got to see the Baphomet statue was in Salem.

Not to sound corny, it made me cry a bit. Not only was I seeing this beautiful piece of art by Satanists, I was also seeing the symbol of the struggle Satanists go through in society in the era of Evangelical violation.

To know, the reaction of the Baphomet statue since it was unveiled. In Detroit, there was death threats. There were people harassing people going to the unveiling. There were bomb threats. All these folks descending upon where the first checkpoint was; they were crying.

They were seeing this as some symbol of the End Times. They had to fight as if us versus them, Christians versus Satanists, because they built a statue. Still, people are absolutely horrified. They see Baphomet as this symbol of evil.

Not based on our actual beliefs, but based on their preconceived notion of what a Satanist is, if they are confronted by a goat figure; people have always associated goats with evil and it’s an icky animal.

They are so besides themselves that there are children. It justifies, in their mind, that there is some kind of overall conspiracy that we’re trying to come after their children and stuff like that. They put so much of their own viewpoints and their own biases, and their own views of the world onto this piece of art.

Whereas, from a Satanist point of view, it is just beautiful. It is a representation of seeing this and the craftsmanship going into it. It is these children seeing this and not being afraid. It is what we see in the world.

Just being different doesn’t mean it is bad, because I am a Satanist, it doesn’t mean that I am bad. Obviously, there were very stark differences to the reactions to it. But it’s a fucking amazing piece of art [Laughing], at the end of the day.

In Arkansas, there is a lawsuit going on right now. We’re part of that. We could always get you in contact with our legal people who could talk about the legal nuances of the lawsuits.

Jacobsen: Please do, that’s where the rubber hits the road.

Blythe: Same thing, they erected – Arkansas – a Ten Commandments statue. We applied to erect our own Baphomet. That’s been a headache. People see it. They don’t like the statue.

Jacobsen: I remember talking to Stu de Haan and Michelle Shortt [Ed. also, Sebastian Simpson of another chapter] a couple to a few years ago. One thing stands out from the interview, surely. It had to do with this notion that when Christian nationalists of various forms try to impose something on the rest of the population.

They get rejected or the proposal or policy is denied. They don’t get what they want or only get 99% of what they want: They play the victim. I believe I posed this as a question. Michelle and Stu responded, ‘100%, if they don’t get immediately what they want, they immediately play the victim.’

It is one of the ultimate ironies because it is coming out of a social and political persuasion that demonizes anyone taking a victim stance. It becomes a political and social platform, and theology, and projecting that victim status outward. Have you come across this as well?

Blythe: Yes, of course, we see it all the time. Other people asserting their rights see it as an attack against the majority. I don’t really know how much more I could add to that. So, they’ve had this position upholding this supremacy.

Then you have a minority utilizing this to uphold their own rights. But since the worldview is different, it is not right or wrong here. It’s about different. They see themselves as a victim. They want to see themselves as a victim and us affirming our rights as an attack, when we have been the ones attacked the entire time.

It is as though they are seeing how their own tactics are seen from the other viewpoint. Where, they have created this infrastructure where they benefit. But when someone else benefits from it, they say, “No, no, no, that wasn’t supposed to happen.”

So seeing what we’re doing as an attack, they’re not actual victims. Nothing is being taken away from them. By their own framework and by their own actions, because they want to inhibit us, whatever they want to put in place for us to be equals in whatever instance, they want to take that away.

They become victims. They do whatever they can to keep us from having our rights. Sometimes, this means taking away what they put in place to give them an advantage. It is this weird thing. They are not victims. They are not being attacked.

Whatever victimhood, whatever viewpoint that they have, it is not in reality. It is of their own choosing. They are choosing to be upset. It is not based on anything that we’re doing against them. We’re not doing anything against the Christians or those with a Christian viewpoint.

We are standing up for ourselves and things that would inhibit our ability to enact equality.  

Jacobsen: The overall framework that I’m getting from that: If you have all the ordinary rights everyone should have set up while others do not have equal rights in every domain, then the attempts to get equal rights in those domains lacking, like the Satanists and others; that move towards equality can feel like an attack.

Blythe: We’re seeing that with the Black Lives Matter movement.

Jacobsen: Right, it is interpreted as only black lives matter. That’s where these phrases like All Lives Matter come out or these weird takes like Blue Lives Matter, as we all know it is a professional suit and not a skin or ethnic marker.

So, on that note, how are the Satanists part of some of the social movements we’ve been seeing active?

Blythe: So, TST came out with a statement on that. We’re not making this about us. We get asked, “What is TST doing about Black Lives Matter?” The answer is, “We’re not making this about us.” We’re not making this about religion.

As an organization, the things that we get involved with in any legal issues or matters has to do with the fact that it has to do with religious people. We keep it within that framework. But Black Lives Matter is not a religious issue, but a human rights issue.

It is something affecting black communities. We don’t want to be a distraction or to paint more targets on the backs of members of the black community, and other Satanists. It is not TST specific. Satanists as a whole are doing what they can to uplift voices in the black community, whether showing up at the protest or contributing funds to some of the legal aids or some of the victim funds to some who lost their lives.

They are doing it in a way that is not a distraction. That’s why you’re not seeing big banners of “TST!” at the protest because it is a distraction and makes it about our identity rather than what this is about, which is the black community and police brutality and their right to not be killed indiscriminately.

Jade and I can talk about what we have personally done. I don’t know if Jade wants to share.

Jacobsen: Please do.

Webber: Albany, there have been the protests happening nearby. We’re going to go out nearby and provide cleanup to any of the businesses needing cleanup after the fact. Because there has been some destruction.

Speaking on All Lives Matter, when we had the Boston Marathon bombing, they used to say, “Boston city strong.” They didn’t say, “Oh! All cities strong.”

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Webber: That’s my biggest argument back when it happens. It is just because it is black lives that it is offensive. In a sense, it is racist.

Blythe: Saying, “All Lives Matter,” is more silencing of their voices, it is more of an insult. It is one more thing, and it’s not the point [Laughing]. We have different members and different chapters. One of the reasons behind that, this comes to why we recruit and don’t proselytize to people.

You have this event, Black Lives Matter. What they are trying to accomplish and what they are trying to talk about is unique to them, this is their discussion. This is their crying out, “Stop killing us.” They already have targets on their backs.

This is part of the overall problem. They already have targets. What benefit would it be with Satanists that we’re trying to deal with on the side? We have our own issues. People believing in ritual Satanic abuse. That we do terrible things.

We’ve got our baggage. None of these things are true. But these are things we fight in our own territory, on our own time, in our own way. The last thing that this community, which is already dealing with discrimination and loss of life, needs is for us to bring our baggage into it.

Anyone who is trying to find an excuse with “All Lives Matter.” Or, they are trying to say, “You’re just a bunch of thugs, who want to destroy property.” Black Lives Matter is this event. They want something simple.

They want to let the world know something is affecting this community, how unjust it is, and want it to change. They don’t want the distracting conversation of “We saw Satanists over here. So, you guys must be this, and this, and this.”

We have asked the black community. What we have been told, “Don’t be a distraction. Do not point more targets on our backs. Be an effective ally. Do what you can to uphold our voices and be known.”

That’s why you see a lot of us sharing things on social media. We have individuals and chapters going out to help with cleanups and even showing up to protests. Putting themselves between them and the police, as body guards.

We are doing the same stuff, but not under the Satanist banner. Otherwise, it would be making it about us and our identity, not about them and the issue that they’re trying to talk about. I’ll send you the statement.

Jacobsen: What are other areas that we have not quite explored or that you have not had explored in an interview?

Blythe: [Laughing] It depends. I’ve done so many different types of interviews and covered so many different types of things. It is nice doing an interview with someone who is a self-identified Satanist [Ed. card-carrying]. I haven’t had to justify why we’re a religion during this conversation, which is nice.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Blythe: Jade was talking about Albany. Albany is doing a bunch of other cool things. Because they’re a great fucking chapter. My history with TST. I have been with TST since 2014. I founded the chapter in Utah.

Then I became a member of the International Council. Then I was doing that for four years. I have been a part of a lot of chapters. I have been the spoiled brat of International Council, as I have been over some of the most amazing chapters that TST has ever seen or will see.

Albany is one of them. They do a lot of good things. They’ve got leadership and Jade here, and Shannon who you’ve talked to. Some of the most brilliant leaders we have; you guys, they get shit done. I would like to give her the opportunity to talk about Albany and what they’re doing.

Webber: We run the Menstruatin’ With Satan, where we collect feminine hygiene products for those who menstruate and donate them to Equinox, which is a women’s shelter down our way. They distribute the products to those in need.

Also, we do a toys for children drive during the Christmas months. We did the Brimstone Initiative, which is distributing care packages to the homeless. So, they have the essentials that they would need living life without a home.

Those are part of the projects. We are trying to get a strip of highway. They don’t want to say The Satanic Temple is part of the highway.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Webber: We’re getting a little pushback from New York [Laughing].

Jacobsen: If one looks at the United States, it’s an outlier. Most every other advanced economy, industrial society, provides either healthcare or pharmacare, or these sorts of things.

The universal access is standard in most industrialized societies, wealthy ones. If the United State provided to such universal access, would these kinds of drives be needed?

Blythe: That’s an excellent question. Maybe, you can tell us about living in Canada.

Jacobsen: Ah, yes!

Blythe: [Laughing]

Jacobsen: I forgot about that.

Blythe: I think the problems we face in America are uniquely American. It doesn’t mean it is necessarily a good thing. We have our struggles. I think that there are other societies as well. We have chapters all over the world now. Different chapters, we have one in Ottawa.

Jacobsen: That’s right! I did read about that.

Blythe: One of the things that we learned being international and crossing American borders. The Satanic Temple is a uniquely American organization because our founders are American. A lot of things that we do are based on the struggles in our American setup.

Our struggles are not only our identities as Satanists, but also asserting our rights in everyday life. It depends on where you’re at. I think that would be a really good question for people who run chapters outside of the US.

Because they can give an example of things outside of the US, “Those are their struggles. Here are our struggles.” Being a religious minority as a religious Satanist is a struggle no matter where you are, no matter how secular or religious the country is.

Even in Ottawa, there is pushback. When the Ottawa chapter did an event, they got so much pushback. They had a really strong reaction, strong negative reaction, by the people in Ottawa.

Jacobsen: You have to bear in mind. In Canada, so, it is somewhere between the United Kingdom and America, even on particularized beliefs dependent on larger structures, e.g., thinking human beings and all things in the world were created less than 10,000 years ago.

~¼ of Canadians believe this. There is a hunk, probably smaller than Americans, who believe in UFOs, ghosts, a literal Devil. Some of my favourite, they find one number believes in heaven, which is significant.

Yet, a smaller percent believe in hell. So, it is a very selective, positive theology. It reflects the demographics of the country. Some 2/3rds of the country [Ed. number statistically found has less now.], even in Indigenous (Inuit, First Nations, Metis) communities, identify as Christian of some form.

That’s the legacy of colonization. It is infused in the culture here as well. I do not see as virulent a form of it as in the United States. Part of it is probably the corporate backing. We have places like Rebel Media and Ezra Levant who pose themselves as journalists, but amount to propagandists for various rightwing arms of things.

It is the same for Fox NewsBreitbartStormfront, and others. They tie themselves to religious ideologies. I know in the United States. A guy who was connected with Jim Jones, actually. I have done some interviews with people who have left.

It is about the tragedy and triumph through healing of some of their lives. It was around the WWII Healing Revival Movement. The Western world collapsed, people were looking for answers. White dudes came in to give them answers proposing themselves as prophets of God.

His name was William Branham [Ed. See Triumph Through Tribulation: William Branham’s Theology In and Out (2020) with former member and author John Collins].

So, he had deep ties to the KKK. He was a main influence on Jim Jones, therefore the People’s Temple. We know how that turned out. Similarly, we see those ideologies turning out. But they have been exported.

I think, in Canada, we have some of that around white supremacist, neo-Nazi groups. They are particularly virulent in the United States because of the political power a lot of the times. They have a history of making their ideology policy.

You can have semi-/demi-/hemi-black supremacists like Louis Farrakhan, but he talks big. He doesn’t really have the power to make policy or have a history of lynching. So, it’s a lot more virulent of an ideology tied to religious faith.

It is a big stew that a lot of this is in, but, at the end of the day, I think the major marker or divide is a battle over women’s bodies or women’s bodily autonomy. Because that’s how they pass on all of their values.

Women are to have lots of kids and only be in the home raising the kids by religious force or coercion, or fear of hell. In Canada, it is less like that, but it’s still a problem. I’m not surprised about the Ottawa chapter of TST.

It is a big porous, huge border. It is the orange line, at this point.

Blythe: Yes, we’re unique. That’s for sure. Given everything, I can say, “We’re unique.”

Jacobsen: So, the obvious question, “How can people get involved?”

Blythe: They can go to our website, which is www.thesatanictemple.com. They can find all sorts of information about how to locate chapters, can find out what we’re doing in the big national campaigns such as Grey Faction, Religious Reproductive Rights, After School Satan.

They can go to www.shopsatan.com. They can get some cool swag and support our legal efforts because lawyers are not cheap. There are also places there where they can help donate as well. If they like our cause, if they like what we’re about, even if they are not a Satanist, Jade, how do they get ahold of the Albany chapter?

Webber: So, we’re right at the top of the list.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Webber: We get a lot of interesting emails. We are right at the top of the list. On www.thesatanictemple.com, we have a list of the chapters. You can find the different ones posted there. We have all our contact information there. We can’t pay the Illuminati, sorry! [Laughing]

Blythe: Yes, sorry, we can’t even pay ourselves.

Jacobsen: Any books, authors, speakers, to recommend?

Webber: A book came out on how TST is changing religion and how we look at it. I just got it. It is pretty interesting.

Blythe: There’s also the Hail Satan? documentary that came out. It is accessible via Hulu or Netflix depending on where you’re at. But if people are more interested in where The Satanic Temple gets its framework of not only the religious identity, the tenets, and the background, if you go to Albany’s website, they have a book list.

It is probably one of the most comprehensive book lists I’ve seen compiled for TST. It covers TST and Satanism in general. It has videos or books relating to certain campaigns. There’s stuff in there about what Grey Faction does, or After School Satan.

You can get yourself acquainted with that. There’s a great book by Katherine Stewart called The Good News Club: The Christian Right’s Stealth Assault on America’s Children. You can find out everything about Good News Clubs and why After School Satan exists.

Albany would be the most comprehensive book list for things that we generally recommend for people.

Jacobsen: Thank you, it was lovely.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Interview with Anya Overmann – President, Young Humanists International

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/10/14

Anya Overmann is the President of Young Humanists International and has held multiple roles in the American Ethical Union. Her roles have mainly been in the youth sections of these organizations. She was raised in the Ethical Culture movement and attended the Ethical Society of St. Louis as a child to the present. She received her Bachelor’s degree in Communication from Truman State University. Overmann is a freelancing writer currently living as a digital nomad. Her passion lies in advocating vigorously for humanist and progressive values both within and beyond the United States.

Here we discuss the former role as the Communications Officer of Young Humanists International, expectations at the start, rebranding in tenure, Marieke Prien, time since Oslo general assembly, Humanist Voices, African Humanism, and science.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: To start off, how long have you been Communications Officer for Young Humanists International?

Anya Overmann: I started in 2015. That will make it about 5 years.

Jacobsen: Now, when you started, what were you expecting?

Overmann: Because the Americas had such a lacking presence, the US had little to no presence in the youth section. I didn’t know what to expect at all. That was the first engagement that any youth US organization had with IHEYO, at the time, and, now, Young Humanists International.

It is the first time that we had in-person interaction with the organization ever. It was back in 2015 back when I attended the general assembly in Oslo (Norway). I did not know what to expect. I ran for that position to get more involved.

Because it more aligned with my passions and where I wanted to go. I did not know what to expect because from the US perspective. We were not involved at all. I really glad to lead that charge to get us more involved, particularly because I believe that – like many American things – the humanist organizations tend to be American-centric.

I was glad to lead the charge in breaking away from that mentality.

Jacobsen: Now, what have been some of the outcomes of the outreach of the communication officer efforts from IHEYO to YHI?

Overmann: Obviously, we went through a massive rebranding over the last couple of years. A lot of that was based on simplifying things and making it appear more open and progressive as an organization.

Because, as you know, secular and non-religious communities are, often, majority white men, Western white men. So, the effort was not only considered simplifying the very complicated acronyms we have in place [Laughing]…

Jacobsen: …[Laughing]…

Overmann: …but also opening it up to being more feminist, more inclusive, less Western-centric – generally more inclusive and moving in that direction of not being so Western white male focused.

That was really the direction I saw it going. I was glad to be part of the effort of this playing out. This was the major transition aside from the visual changes to the logo, the branding. A change from a dark red to humanist raspberry [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing] I remember something like that. Yes.

Overmann: It is a softer colour. I don’t want to say, “It is more feminine.” But it does have an impact, visually. Aside from all that, I think the symbolism behind the rebrand was key. I am hoping the policies and the movements that we make as an organization reflect the branding.

Jacobsen: What do you think was the importance of the work that Marieke Prien did as the president in terms of service, in terms of leadership, and in terms of setting a tone for the leadership of the organization?

Overmann: Where do I begin? Marieke, she has done so much over the past several years. First of all, bridging the gap between the youth section and the parent organization, I think this has been really challenging.

There is this autonomy that we want to maintain as young people. But, at the same time, we don’t want to get too far away from the parent organization, who we are, and, frankly, the resources that they have.

I think she did a fantastic job in building the relationships with Humanists International and setting the stage for where we are headed next, which is to be a more integrated organization and removing some of the bureaucratic hurdles, which have been established.

I would say, “It was unintentional how those hurdles were erected.” When you are an organization establishing your own bylaws, she was key in seeing these hurdles for what they were and making moves in the direction of taking those down, so we as a youth section can do the work that we want to do.

It is in the respective communities having humanist perspective, having youth, and bringing youth in, without all the paperwork and hoops to jump through to get it done. She worked really to do that.

I think one of the most admirable things that she has done over the last few years is being a representative for young humanists at the Humanists International board level without having a vote.

She has attended these board meetings for a number of years now without, technically, having a vote. But because of the relationships built, and the advocacy done by her; she was really able to get – metaphorically – our foot in the door: to be heard, to be more considered.

She set us up for where we are headed next. I am so grateful for the work that she has done. She has done so much.

Jacobsen: When it comes to the parent organization and the youth section of the parent organization, what have been some of the more poignant parts of collaboration of a unified interest? The general organization will have some overlap with the youth organization interests.

It isn’t always the case. It may not have to be the case. Because a general demographic has some different concerns than youth. What has stood out in terms of the collaborative efforts to you, outside of individual admirable work of, for instance, the former president – since Oslo?

Overmann: I think the funding that has been put into the humanist grants, for example. That’s, maybe, the most substantial thing that we can point to – the overlapping interests. Those grants have been issued. People have used them to create events and workshops in communities that do not have a strong humanist presence or community presence.

So, particularly in Latin America and in Asia, and in Africa too, those grants have been put to use. I think that’s super important because building the youth community is an invaluable investment, especially right now.

Because if we want to build a stronger parent organization, we have to invest in youth now. That’s how you ensure a movement of humanists who will push the movement forward. I think the grants are probably the most powerful example of the parent organization really supporting the youth section.

Jacobsen: Humanist Voices, what are some highlights for you?

Overmann: We started that 2016/17. It was such a cool effort because it was such an unofficial thing. It came together as a sort of rough – let’s get some perspective out there, which isn’t officially attached to our name., but we support it.

I think that that was a really cool effort that we made. The content that we can put out has so much more potential there. We have put out – I mean, thanks to you. You have put out the majority [Laughing] of content with your interviews and the work that you have done.

We have been able to get a lot of different perspective just from the project, which has been entirely youth led. There’s been no funding put into that whatsoever. I think that’s the most impressive aspect of that entire project. It was youth-led and completely unfunded.

Humanist Voices is a really cool effort on its own. I will say this on the record. I do think that developing it into a podcast format or, at least, developing something similar that has an audiovisual component is going to really step up the exposure that we have and has the potential to bring in a lot more interest from both youth and older people interested too.

I think there is a lot of potential there.

Jacobsen: In terms of the diversification of the community base for young humanists, I think you’re right. I don’t think there has been a lot of emphasis, especially African Humanism or Eastern European Humanism. They’re there.

They have fewer resources, so they may not be as developed in having those fundamental aspects of infrastructure. But they have grounded ideas in the long-term traditions that they come from, the cultures. I think they have valuable contributions to the overarching humanist ideals.

Two examples come to mind, or one with two different titles is Ubuntu and Unhu, which is ‘I exist because you exist.’ In other words, it is an interpersonal sense of things. It is more communal while still saying there are individual people within the society who have their own rights.

That social responsibility and communalism is fundamental to Humanism. A lot of African humanists will talk about Ubuntu or Unhu prior to Arab-Muslim colonialism or European-Christian colonialism as really the core of a lot of African values.

Some termed it “African Humanism.” It’s there. That’s only one example. What are thoughts on some of these different areas of the world with young humanists coming up?

Overmann: I think it is very important and vital that those are highlighted, featured, and given exposure. Because, again, we are moving towards this global humanist organization. It means moving away from this exclusively Western focus with an emphasis on the individual more than the communal aspects of Humanism.

I think a unique perspective that I, specifically, can provide coming from an ethical humanist group is that there can be a lot of really important cultural aspects. These aspects are in religion too, which focus on community. There are pages out of the book of religion. Which we can take and apply in a humanistic way, I think Western humanists tend to shy away from that.

In that, they are entrenched in this Western mindset and believing so many aspects of religion are bad. They tend to miss out on the aspects that can really help us move forward. I think bringing in these different takes on Humanism, especially the African one.

Like you hit the nail on the head with that one, it is a really strong case for looking at Humanism differently and seeing how we can be more inclusive and communal. I think that’s super vital. Ethical culture does the same thing back in the States.

It is a different approach to Humanism. It doesn’t necessarily sit well with secular humanists because it is so inclusive. But at the end of the day, the motto is “deed before creed.” So, what it is saying, ‘We don’t care what your beliefs are. If you believe in a God, it’s not a big deal. You values and execution of the values are what matters.’

It is still so humanistic. I know secularists don’t necessarily like that. Because it looks like it includes religious people, but it does. But I think that opening ourselves up to those types of thinking help us excel, especially when we are trying to get away from the classic Western, secular humanist view of Humanism.

Jacobsen: Do you think the fact that Humanism is more empirical permits it to more consistently refine itself?

Overmann: Yes! [Laughing] I think it might be easier with my background and being a young person to be able to incorporate that into my view of Humanism. But I can see how someone who has been a humanist for a number of decades and is used to what you described as this empirical approach.

I can see how it might be challenging for them. It is really interesting because it is really reflective of these very white, male driven societies. We become entrenched in “this is how we will do it, and this is how it is” [Laughing].

I think humanists don’t want to believe that we fall into that mindset, but we do. I think that it just reinforces why it is so important to have these other approaches to Humanism, which are steadily gaining more of a voice and as a reminder: Our worldview should be more malleable, especially if we are seeking to be more inclusive every day.

As a movement, we are going to have to incorporate more views. I think that that’s totally part of it. I think science doesn’t necessarily go agaist that because science is learning new information, take that into account, and then you move forward.

So, it is not too far away from the scientific approach either. We don’t have to take spirituality and make it a part of Humanism because that is the way forward. I think there is a way to do that in a thoughtful and calculated way, which is both inclusive and considerate of where we are coming from.

Jacobsen: Science studies one unified reality. So, if anything is studying a human being, then it is studying human nature. So, to any anthropological study into any other way of looking at the world that we would fit into a humanist framework, it would be more revealing of what Humanism is truly about, because it is incorporating more and more aspects of what is possible for a human being to flourish, what is possible in human nature.

Overmann: Absolutely, I totally agree.

Jacobsen: What humanist value is the most important, stands out the most, of the declarations or manifestos formalized?

Overmann: That’s a good question. I think the one on climate change is really important. Right now, I think the Auckland Declaration is important denouncing the politics of division. I think that is so critical right now with the US in this really critical time of teetering on the edge of a fascist regime. I think having denounced that back in 2018; I don’t want to say, “We were ahead of the curve.”

But we were on top of it. The U.S. isn’t the only place in this circumstance. The UK is too. They are separating from Europe. The Philippines have been in that position for a while. Brazil is another example of that. I think that declaration was really important.

That one sticks out for me as being one of the most important values that we as an organization have publicly announced.

Jacobsen: Anya, thanks so much for your time.

Overmann: You’re welcome. 

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Professor Burge 6 – Income and Religious Disaffiliation, and Modern Republican Party

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/10/19

Professor Ryan Burge‘s website states: “I am an Assistant Professor of Political Science as well as the Graduate Coordinator at Eastern Illinois University. I teach in a variety of areas, including American institutions, political behavior, and research methods. My research focuses largely on the intersection between religiosity and political behavior (especially in the American context). Previously, I have completed an appointment as a post doctoral research fellow at the Paul Simon Public Policy Institute in Carbondale, Illinois. While there I was an adviser on issues of survey methodology and polling, as well as providing data collection and analysis.

I have published over a dozen articles in a number of well regarded peer reviewed journals including Politics & Religion, the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, the Review of Religious Research, the Journal of Religious Leadership, RepresentationPoliticsGroupsand Identities, the Journal of Communication and Religion, the Journal of Religion, Media and Digital Culture and the Social Science Computer Review. 

In addition, my research has been covered in a variety of media outlets including The New York Times, The Washington Post, CNN, NBC, Vox, 538, BuzzFeed News, Al-Jazeera, Christianity Today, Religion News Service, The Daily Mail, Deseret News, World Magazine, Relevant, and C-SPAN. I am the co-founder and frequent contributor to Religion in Public, a forum for scholars of religion and politics to make their work accessible to a more general audience.

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about modern political party religious affiliation and income.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, here we are again with Professor Ryan Burge, we’ve had the Democratic National Convention. We’ve had the Republican National Convention. So, something new has to do with income in the research for you. How do the religious versus the Nones [Ed. Sorry, Indi] compare in incomes?

Professor Ryan Burge: The perception people have is individuals who have more incomes are religiously unaffiliated or those who have no religion are less likely to be poor. The image of poor hillbillies. In fact, the reality is there is no real relationship between income and disaffiliation. There is some evidence that more higher income people are more likely to be religious. You have to think about it in terms of the vertical versus the horizontal.

When people think about religion, a lot think about the vertical, which is the relationship between a higher power and you. But religion has a strong social relationship too. It’s you and other people. People who get farther in life, economically, in terms of careers and things. They tend to have large social networks. Where is the place to have the social network? It is in the church. That’s where people make connections and move things forward. People are religious tend to be plugged in.

They aren’t necessarily funding anti-abortion clinics or things like that. They put a few hundred dollars in the offering plate, and want to see and be seen, and be part of the social scene. If you own a car lot, people are more likely to buy a car from you because they think you’re reputable and know you. It is practical and want to have a good business. It’s one way to have a good business. So, yes, there’s no real association become income and disassociation.

Jacobsen: The Greatest Generation had about 75% believing in God absolutely. 35% in Generation Z, why the 40% drop, approximately?

Burge: Yes, it is generation replacement – a lot of it. I don’t want to lay things at the altar of the internet too much. The internet did have a big impact on beliefs. Because if you were a kid growing up in rural Alabama in 1950, your only opportunity to hear about Judaism, Buddhism, or Hinduism was to go to the local library and find one or two books there talking about these things. Now, a 12-year-old can go on the internet and learn about the Five Pillars of Islam in 5 minutes, or Mormonism, or Hinduism, or learn about being an atheist or a humanist. 

I think access to more and more information makes people more doubtful of the things that they currently because they see the buffet of beliefs in the world, “Maybe, I was not as right as I thought I was.” I think the internet has a lot to do with it, and secularization. We know America has become a much more secular country. Here’s what interesting: 40% of Gen Z claim themselves as religiously unaffiliated – agnostic, atheist, and nothing in particular, but only 18% hold an agnostic or atheist belief system. So, half of the people who identify from a belonging perspective as Nones do not from a believing perspective. Belief is the last thing to go. Attendance is the first thing. Belonging is the second thing. Belief is the third thing to go for most people.

Jacobsen: Why are retired atheists so prominent on social media, as in posting a lot?

Burge: This is conjecture from me. I think it’s an interesting question. I think a lot of retired atheists are retired, and bored.

 Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Burge: If you were an atheist, you grew up when 85-90% of America was Christian in the 1960s and 70s. A lot of atheists grew up in culturally conservative households and communities. They really had to navigate a difficult space, where they couldn’t say what they really were politically or religiously. Once you get to retirement age, you don’t care what people think. I think you become more passionate. You don’t worry about getting your boss mad and getting ahead.

Atheists tend to have high levels of education – more than half of them have a bachelor’s degree. A lot of them have idle time, education, and make politics their hobby. Boom! Here it goes, they have nothing to lose. They want to post about politics a lot. It is overcorrection for their upbringing, “Look how liberal I am now compared to the religious town I grew up in.”

Jacobsen: Why were so Americans before saying that American atheists were a drain on the economy?

Burge: I have a theory. I don’t have strong data to back this up, yet. The arguments people make in public are the most socially respectable version of the argument that they really want to make. So, when it comes to immigration, it is a lot better socially to say, “I am opposed to immigration because I think they take good jobs from good, hardworking Americans and drive down wages.” It sounds palatable in a lot of ways. It is not about skin color, religion, or xenophobia. It is about cold, hard economics.

If you see the data, the age group most worried about immigration are people over the age of 65, which tells you pretty clearly. It is not about economics, “They are going to take our jobs.” It is about xenophobia and fear of the other. Once you look at the data, it lays bare this reality. It is not about “taking our jobs”; it is about “we don’t like brown and black people coming to our country. People coming here should be white and Christian. We just don’t like that.” Of course, nobody is going to say that at the dinner party because people will respond, “You’re racist.”

They couch this in economic terms. But it doesn’t pan out. Evidence is clear. Immigrants don’t make the economy worse. They make it better in a lot of ways.

Jacobsen: In August, 2019, you “scraped” 58,000 tweets from all democratic primary candidates. 0.2% – 2 in 1,000 – of them contained the word “God.” It doesn’t have to do with sentences, but with a word. Why that? Why more references to Islam than to Christianity?

Burge: Because the Democratic Party has become the party of non-white Christians. 38% of the Democratic Party is white and Christian. 75% of the modern Republican Party. The modern Republican Party is one that styles itself as a party that caters to white Christian people and white Christian values. The Democratic Party has to cater to everyone else, including the Nones, and religious pluralism. “America is not a Christian country, but a country that has a lot of Christian people.” It is a lot of virtue signalling.

“Listen, we’re open to every religion. If we talk about Islam, then it looks like we’re open to all religion.” It becomes a key to speaking about all religions. You’ve got to appeal to one group while not making the other group mad. Democrats tend to not speak about God too much, except in vague terms. Republicans are more open about it because it’s their base.

Jacobsen: Why does knowing someone with COVID-19 decrease support for Trump among white Evangelicals?

Burge: It makes it real. This happened in America, especially where I live in the rural southern part of the state of Illinois. When COVID-19 broke out in March and April, it was primarily a Chicago thing. Almost all the cases in the state were in Chicago. We might have 5 cases a week, which is almost none. The resurgence of COVID-19 now happens in rural counties. More people in Illinois got COVID-19 outside of Chicago than outside of Chicago. It has become more and more real.

For a long time, a lot of people in rural America were convinced this was a hoax. A lot are still convinced by the way. When you see someone die, you realize: This isn’t a messaging campaign by Democrats, or a hoax, or a conspiracy. People are sick and dying because the Trump Administration has done a terrible job handling the pandemic in every way. The risks are high. It is not politics. It is people’s lives on the line.

Jacobsen: How has the Republican Party changed in demographics from mainline Protestants, Evangelicals, and Catholics?

Burge: Yes! This is a big shift, not a lot of Americans understand. Mainline Protestants used to be 40% of all Republicans in 1978. 4 in 10 were Mainline Protestants, e.g., United Methodists, Episcopalians, non-Evangelical Protestants or moderate Protestants who do not want higher taxes, who have higher incomes and higher levels of education. Today, they went from 41% of the Republican Party to 14% of the Republican Party. Evangelicals went from 25% to 32%. So, they’re growing, but Catholics have grown as a share of the Republican Party too.

The Catholic vote used to be a solid blue vote, especially at the national level. You can think of Kennedy, New England Catholics. Over time, they have moved towards the Republican Party, especially among white Catholics. No religion, the Nones, used to be less than 5% of Republicans. Now, 13.6% are Republican. They are a small group and growing in size. As the Nones grow in size, you will get more. You would not get all Catholics.

The modern Republican Party is 1/3rd Evangelical, ¼ Catholic, and 13-15% Mainline Protestants, then those of other faith groups, and then No Religion.  That’s what the modern Republican Party looks like.

Jacobsen: Thank you so much for your time, today.

Burge: Always a pleasure, Scott.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Jon 19 – Quelle Surprise

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/10/17

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New YorkHere we talk about the case of Elizabeth Newman.

*Interview conducted on September 14, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, what is going on with this Newman case?

Jonathan Engel: It is very interesting. There is this woman named Elizabeth Newman. She worked for many years in government. She is a pretty high-up individual in the Department of Homeland Security. In April, she quit. She cited a reason as the Trump Administration not taking the most serious internal terrorist threat as a threat, which is white supremacist terrorist violence. She said, ‘I couldn’t get anyone to take it seriously. So, I quit.’ She has been vocal about it. I don’t know if she is writing a book.

I have see her on T.V. She spoke eloquently, ‘After a while, I had a to leave. Right now, I feel as if I have to sound the alarm. This government, as I know from being inside of it, doesn’t take it seriously.’ Then she was asked about Trump. They asked, ‘Did you vote for Trump?’ She said, ‘Yes.’ I am shocked about this. I am curious as to how many people support this guy. She didn’t fit the profile of a Trump supporter. She seemed generally reasonable, concerned about the public, intelligent, educated.

I was wondering what about the next question. They asked, ‘Why did you vote for Trump in 2016?’ Because there were so many things known about Trump in 2016. The settlement of Trump University for fraud to settle civil suits. It was known about the Central Park five young men who were accused of a heinous crime and then were exonerated with DNA evidence. Trump still wants them executed. We knew about that. We knew about the pussy-grabber-in-chief. We knew about all this.

How did somebody like Elizabeth Newman, a seemingly intelligent and decent person, vote for Trump? By the way, she says that she will vote for Biden in 2020. When asked, ‘Why did you vote for Trump in 2016?’ The first words out of her mouth and afterwards, ‘I was raised in a Christian household.’ She went on to talk about how he was supported by all the Evangelicals, ‘I don’t believe in abortion. I’m pro-life.’ The fact that the abortion rate has been going down steadily under democratic presidents didn’t influence that much.

It was almost as if this intelligent woman had a switch in her head called “Religion.” When the switch went on, critical thinking went out of the window. Trump supporters have this hate, ignorance, and xenophobia. I don’t like it. I see what it is, though. But it is the people who say, “I voted for Trump in 2016, but, now, I see it.” It is interesting to see. I am glad Elizabeth Newman is saying she is going to vote for Biden.

But again, I see her voting for Trump. It is as if the religion switch was turned on and the critical reasoning switch went off in her head. I don’t think that we look carefully enough at how religion turns off people’s critical thinking. If you believe in miracles, and if you believe in that kind of stuff generally, then it can hinder your ability to believe in science and the evidence of what you see.

I hope there are lot more people like her around who have seen the debacle Trump has been and will change their votes, but there are still a lot of people who for religious reasons will continue to support him. I think it is an existential struggle for the world, which is the ability to rely on science and reasoning being inhibited by people’s taught religious beliefs. They get these from the time they are little children. It is hard for them to give this up.

Jacobsen: John, thank you.

Engel: Thanks, Scott, see you next week. Take care.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Jon 18 – The Times They Are a-Changin’

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/10/02

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New YorkHere we talk about the demographic projections influencing current political reactionary moves.

*Interview conducted on September 21, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, you’ve been reading your hometown newspaper, which is regular for those who have been reading this series on the regular. Let’s talk about the political divides happening now, at a particularly acute clip, what comes to mind? What articles are standing out from the New York Times as of our last discussion?

Jonathan Engel: The issue of the day, these things go with such speed in the modern culture. The biggest item of the today is the United States Supreme Court. Ruth Bader Ginsburg passed away this week. There are four conservatives, four liberals. It may be five because Chief Justice Roberts is conservative by nature, but has shown some liberal ideas in recent decisions.

So, this all goes back to 2016 when Antonin Scalia, a conservative justice, died in February of 2016. Many liberals like me thought, “Oh boy, we can get somebody picked by Obama.” Obama being Obama picked someone acceptable to Republican senators who were a majority. He wanted to get this picked through. So, he picked Merrick Garland. He is not liberal, but more center left and is an older person because these are lifetime appointments. All appointments to the federal Supreme Court are lifetime appointments.

So, someone not that young and not that liberal. As we all know, as what happens, Mitch McConnell, the leader of the Republicans in the Senate, said, ‘We don’t even find him acceptable. We are not going to give him a hearing. It is only 9 months to the election. Let Americans decide in the election, who the next president will be, then we will let that person pick the next justice.” Now, we are only 6 weeks from the election.

What do you know? What a shocker, McConnell has changed his tune and said, ‘No, no, no, we will have somebody elected by Trump before the election and too bad. Are we hypocrites? I don’t know. And who cares?” What can Democrats do anything about it? One of the big political issues ongoing here right now. Probably the single biggest now, Democrats have certain things that they can do. Will they or won’t they? It is an interesting question. Again, they could impeach Trump again because impeachment hearings take precedence over everything else, including Supreme Court justice selection.

Charles Blow in the New York Times wrote about this, in an article called “Conservatives Try To Lock in Power.” He talks largely about the things that are obvious and a lot of people are talking about; you have demographic shifts in the country that make it unlikely Republicans will win in terms of actual number of votes. Young people tend to be more liberal, especially about social issues like homosexuality and abortion.

Also, you have the country becoming less homogeneous. There is a rising Latinx population in this country. There is a rising Asian-American population in this country. So, it looks like demographically Republicans are in trouble. Therefore, they are trying to lock in power in the courts in order to preserve their power in a non-democratic way because they are not going to be able to win elections.

Here’s what is interesting to me, that is pretty standard stuff. Blow also talks about, not just that the country is becoming less white and younger people are somewhat more liberal with the primary concern being climate change, how the country is becoming less religious and, specifically, less Christian.

I thought that was worth noting because that is something many liberals and democrats are very hesitant to talk about. They are, at times, very defensive about religion, ‘No, no, no, we’re religious too. We’re religious too!’ They are very defensive about religion and fail to acknowledge the country is becoming more secular. Charles Blow, in his column, talks about this. A little quote from it, “As America becomes less religious and less white, more galvanized to find climate change, more open to legalizing marijuana, and more aware of systemic racism, the religious conservative spine of the Republican Party is desperate for a way to save a way of life that may soon be rendered a relic.” Then he goes on to talk about how the country is becoming less Christian according to surveys, less religious in general.

Just that fact that he points that out in terms of the demographic change in the country, it was a tremendous breath of fresh air. So many liberals are afraid of even just pointing out that we are becoming a less religious country, somehow, scares them. Somehow, it makes them feel like it is something that we just can’t say.

I was happy to see Charles Blow talking about the demographic changes in the country. That’s one of those changes.

Jacobsen: Jon! Thank you so much for your time and the commentary today.

Engel: It’s my pleasure as always. Take care of yourself.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Gary 2 – “Humanism supports democracy and human rights.”

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/09/27

Gary McLelland is the Chief Executive of Humanists International: “Gary joined Humanists International in February 2017. Before this he worked for the Humanist Society Scotland since 2013 as Head of Communications and Public Affairs. He has also previously served as a Board member of the European Humanist Federation based in Brussels, as well as a board member of the Scottish Joint Committee on Religious and Moral Education. Before working in Humanist campaigning, Gary worked for a global citizenship project at the Mercy Corps European headquarters in Edinburgh, and also in policy and service delivery in education and social work. He has a BSc (hons) in psychology, a diploma in childhood and youth studies and master’s in human rights law, in which he researched the approach of the European Court of Human Rights and the United Nations’ approach to so-called ‘blasphemy laws’.”

Here we talk about vetting those in need, and international diplomacy.

*Interview conducted on September 4, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Let’s talk about some filtering secular organizations, international and national, can do to vet asylum claims based on some form of fear of anti-secular reprisal, or religious fundamentalist violence against them, or legal actions against them. What are preliminary things to look for when vetting some of these cases?

Gary McLelland: Yes, one of the best ways to verify a case if it is possible is by referral. So, we have a matrix system, where we assign people scores based on different criteria. One of the criteria that we ranked very heavily is whether they are referred by another organization. Let’s take a hypothetical case of a humanist in India facing persecution because of some local incident, if that person can be referred to us by a member in India who knows them, has met them, can understand the context, can verify the level of threat that this person is facing, or, indeed, intervene and help them in some way. That goes a long way to establishing the credibility of the person.

Often, we don’t have that. We have people referred to us by a non-member. A lot of organizations will face this issue. As the public awareness of them providing support grows, because of news articles or more successful cases, the number of cases that get referred to it grows as well. It is happening to us as well. We have seen a massive growth in the number of referrals. One way is by the referral link. We can use the local members to help in another way. Sometimes, when we go through the verification process, we have said approximately 40% of the people who request help do not pass the verification stage. Often, this is because we can’t verify who they are or the risks that they are facing.

Sometimes, if they contact us, we will redirect them back to a local member, or another local contact in the region, to see what is the context, and if the story makes sense – a sense test. Another factor is the urgency of the case. Sometimes, it may be the case that someone may be seeking relocation because of some long and chronic issue. There are cases as in Mubarak’s because we had to jump on this immediately because we only knew that he had been apprehended. We didn’t know where to or why. The next thing is to get some level of verification from another form of contact in the region, which makes a lot of sense. Today, we were lucky to confirm another consultant on our staff, Kacem El Ghazzali. He is a Moroccan guy who has been working with us since 2013 t the United Nations. He came on board as a consultant for case work, specifically, for the MENA region. Kacem speaks Arabic and French.

So, also, he has a knowledge of the issues humanists face in the region. So, he is able to get in touch with people in different languages with some cultural sensitivity and awareness as to what is going on. These things can help having a conversation in their native language for 10 minutes versus an email exchange to understand the depth and the contexts for somebody who is genuinely in need. There is no one size fits all approach. The different requests that we get are very, very different. In many cases, it does require a lot of backwards and forwards. As I said in the article in The Friendly Atheist¸ the contact tends to move to an encrypted source, e.g., Signal, WhatsApp. That allows us to have a more in-depth conversation with a bit more understanding as to what is going on. The short answer is that it takes a lot of time. There is a lot of pressure when we get these referrals . They may often be in a heightened state of stress. The emotional reaction is to act as quickly as possible. However, the systems that we have in place and the policies that we  have in place protect everybody. In that, we only protect people we can verify.

That process takes a lot of time. We ask for two. One is identification of the individual, identification documents. Another is verifying claim of being at risk, whether threats or harassment. So, we will request screenshots of credible threats, testimony of other people, so on and so forth. It can take a long time. Of course, a very, very stressful thing or the staff to review this stuff. We work as a team. We have a coordinator, Emma (who you should speak to at some point, actually), who has been doing this work for over 7 years. She worked on the writers at risk program at PEN International with some of the Bangladeshi bloggers. She has a real depth of knowledge about these issues. She coordinates not only our staff team, but our members, to respond to these cases and requests.

Basically, she will do this on an ongoing basis with my support. Every two weeks, we convene a case conference where the staff and I will discuss or go through the caseload to check what is happening with each case. Do we need to close a case or re-prioritize it, e.g., approve different levels of funding?

Jacobsen: As we should note, as a side point, Emma started the position on the Bala case.

McLelland: [Laughing] That’s true.

Jacobsen: Which is extraordinary [Laughing].

McLelland: She started the day before the Bala case started. I said this to Emma, “I know this is one of the most stressful jobs that you can do, which is to be in contact with people in a life or death situation. It is incredibly stressful. Inevitably, some things will not go the way you them to.” I wanted to have as long and as slow an introduction as possible to know the organization, the people, the history of the organization. Within 24 hours, Mubarak’s case began. She acted as professionally and diligently as anyone could have expected. She continues to be in daily contact with the lawyers and Leo. It was an incredible baptism of fire, you could say.

Jacobsen: [Laughing] We should take an educational point, as well, from extraordinary cases coming out of exceptional people like Gulalai Ismail. Those cases take years and extensive networks. We can’t go into depth there on some things. However, in general, what do organizations need when tracking, covering, and helping/assisting these extraordinary cases, singular?

McLelland: Like you said in the question, one is having a mind on the long game. I said this to some people when Mubarak was kidnapped in April, “Look, I know the urgency people feel about this. I feel it as well. If you allow yourself a few moments to reflect on Mubarak’s case now, where he is creamed in some prison in Nigeria worried about COVID-19, crammed with mosquitoes, wondering if people know where he is, not know what condition he is in (e.g., beaten up) without access to his lawyer. If you reflect on it, then you can understand why people feel a strong sense of urgency, why they want things to happen now, why they want people to get involved, why they tweet. It is important to channel the energy somewhere positive. However, what I think our experience, training, and policies also kick in, which is, perhaps, not a very natural response; a sense of calm, a sense of the long game, based on the experience with Gulalai. We know these cases take months, years. We know there will be back channel communications, negotiations, diplomacy, and a whole different set of layers of campaigning, not just the surface level that the public will see. There are a whole lot of challenges about that.

Not just from the management point of view, another case, Mohamed Cheikh Ould Mkhaitir, we did campaigning. We got support from Amnesty International on this case of a humanist anti-slavery campaigner from Mauritania. It was a win for us, in a sense. Amnesty can muster far more resources and change than us with our smaller size. From a management point of view, it is a tricky thing. You have to balance between getting public support to management to campaigning to taking action and standing outside of embassies. Also, you need to respect the other twin track diplomatic channel. We at Humanists International, our reputation is something that we value very highly. Many governments and international agencies around the world, because we practice the restraint and the long-term and quiet diplomatic approach, when we do ask for help on the rare occasions; people do respond.

When Mubarak went missing, within 48 hours, our briefing was read by over 25 governments around the world. We had direct contact with foreign ministers, U.N. officials, because we don’t jump on every single case without verification. Because people know that when we ask for help; it is urgent. We have checked for facts. It can be the real challenge. The challenge of what you can say publicly and what you can say privately. As you rightly said, we can’t go into too many details, because it is a core part of diplomacy that you respect the confidentiality of the process. If you think about Mohamed Cheikh Ould Mkhaitir’s case, his release came after months of negotiations with the Mauritanian government. We know some central government authorities would be more than happy to release prisoners of conscience, e.g., Mkhaitir, Gulalai, Mubarak, etc., because the international backlash impacts trade, tarnishes the image of the country. It is an awkward thing for global leaders to have to answer these questions during trade missions.

So, in many cases, we know that they would be far happier to see them released. However, there is also the internal politics in the country. Many, many times, they can’t be seen to lose face with the reactionary extreme religious elements in their country or rival political candidates. There can be so many different layers to what is going on here. Understanding that, and having some input into that process, it can be very helpful. That I an extremely frustrating thing. Because we rightly see someone like Mubarak as a friend and a colleague, as an individual; however, it is difficult to put yourself into the mind of having him as a pawn in some political game playing out in Nigeria. The sad truth is that for some people there; that’s the way that they see it. We have to be able to be willing to have some input. It takes so much trust to have meetings with foreign ministers, U.N. officials, have off the record briefings, and so on. It takes a lot of trust because people have to trust that we will not divulge the details of this communication. It is a very interesting process.

With many cases, you want to shout from the rooftop [Laughing] about all of the amazing work that you’ve been doing; it is very frustrating when you can’t. You have to ask people to trust you that you’re working on it. I can tell you. There are active updates in the last few days. Some certainly positive ones, but we can’t share them publicly, because it would put people at risk to divulge it; it is a very frustrating thing. Because we want people to know what we know. We have to have our eye on the long game. Breaching the trust of some contacts now, it comes with the risk that they won’t tell us things in the future; that’s a risk that we can’t take, frankly. It is a very frustrating line to walk, as I said.

Jacobsen: Gary, thanks so much for your time.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Professor Burge 5 – The Trump Administration, Atheists and Jewish Peoples, and Sexual Partners

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/09/22

Professor Ryan Burge‘s website states: “I am an Assistant Professor of Political Science as well as the Graduate Coordinator at Eastern Illinois University. I teach in a variety of areas, including American institutions, political behavior, and research methods. My research focuses largely on the intersection between religiosity and political behavior (especially in the American context). Previously, I have completed an appointment as a post doctoral research fellow at the Paul Simon Public Policy Institute in Carbondale, Illinois. While there I was an adviser on issues of survey methodology and polling, as well as providing data collection and analysis.

I have published over a dozen articles in a number of well regarded peer reviewed journals including Politics & Religion, the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, the Review of Religious Research, the Journal of Religious Leadership, RepresentationPoliticsGroupsand Identities, the Journal of Communication and Religion, the Journal of Religion, Media and Digital Culture and the Social Science Computer Review. 

In addition, my research has been covered in a variety of media outlets including The New York Times, The Washington Post, CNN, NBC, Vox, 538, BuzzFeed News, Al-Jazeera, Christianity Today, Religion News Service, The Daily Mail, Deseret News, World Magazine, Relevant, and C-SPAN. I am the co-founder and frequent contributor to Religion in Public, a forum for scholars of religion and politics to make their work accessible to a more general audience.

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about some particularized questions within the research, in brief, on why people voted for Trump, atheists and Jewish peoples, and the number of sexual partners in the last 5 years.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, some quick questions based on the recent research. This is an interesting question. So, when you’re looking at what is more acceptable to say at a dinner party, “I voted for Trump because I want to end abortion,” or, “I voted for Trump because I wanted to end immigration.” Why did people vote for Trump?

Professor Ryan Burge: They’re Republican. He’s a Republican. That’s the simple answer. Aside from anecdotes, the reality is American society; we all understand is more based in religious belief than philosophy, logic, or science. If someone says, “I think Roe v Wade should be overturned and abortion should be illegal in America.” Most people will say, “Okay, I am not going to argue that position with you because you probably got that position from the Bible. You believe what you believe. I believe what I believe.” So, if people say they voted for Trump because of abortion, people will say, “Okay, I understand that.” Then the conversation moves onto something else.

If it is on immigration, like ending the “visa lottery” or something, even moderates or even slightly conservative Republicans will look at you like, “You want to end immigration too?” Evangelicals have gotten really smart at saying the thing that is kind of true, but not exactly true. Because they don’t want to have the conversation at a dinner party or a company party. Because if it is abortion, they know this will end the conversation. If you talk about immigration, you will get, “You’re a racist. You’re a xenophobe.” They are good at posturing themselves. They are really good at PR. This is how they manage to justify their own vote choice. Immigration is more consequential than abortion is for white Evangelicals.

Jacobsen: Why do atheists and Jewish people follow government and public affairs more than anyone else?

Burge: [Laughing] Because they have really high levels of education. Matters like that are tied to education; education is tied to income. Income is tied to following the news. If you own a business, then you will follow the news for business interests. I think it is highly correlated with overall levels of education. Especially for Jewish people, they are heavily populated in highly educated areas, like New England. They are news heavy people. It is who is the locus of where the information is coming from, which is the metropolitan areas. You have to soak into it for Jewish people.

It is all around you all the time. For atheists, 25% of atheists have a bachelor’s degree. It is really, really high, up there with Hindus and Buddhists. People care about education. It is more about demography and education, and less about the religious beliefs or the philosophical beliefs or structure that went into understanding the world. Jewish people have high levels of education as well. It is probably not religion there, and probably demography. 

Jacobsen: What about number of sexual partners in the last 5 years?

Burge: [Laughing].

Jacobsen: How has that trend looked from 1991 to 2018? What is the summary statement there?

Burge: I think very stable. That’s the thing for people who don’t follow this very closely. If you look at sexual behaviour in Americans, it is down. For instance, 70% of adults in the last 12 months have had 1 or no sexual partners. That’s a huge – and these are adults too – number. Also, other data show high school students, of them, only 40% of them have had vaginal intercourse in the last 12 months, when it was 55% 20 years ago. That’s a 15-point drop in 2 decades. The number of abortions in America is lower than it has ever been, according to the Guttmacher Institute.

So, when you look at all of these things that tie into sex and sexual behaviour, America is, actually, not nearly as promiscuous as lots of people think it is. Probably, less than 10% of people have had more than 5 sexual partners in the last 5 years. So, when we see these archetypes of these guys who are out being promiscuous with lots of different partners, the reality is that just not true. It is very small percentage of Americans. The reality: Most Americans are monogamous or celibate.

Jacobsen: And that’s a wrap.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Jon 17 – Synonymization Fit for Political Purposes

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/09/21

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New YorkHere we talk about the National Democratic Convention.

*Interview conducted on August 24, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, it’s hot over there. It’s rainy and muggy over here, hence the British part. There was the Democratic National Convention, recently. You noticed something a lot of other people didn’t notice. Let’s start in brief. What was the thing that you noticed? What was the importance of this Democratic National Convention?

Jonathan Engel: As a secular person, I noticed. On the positive side, the Democratic platform includes a plank on freedom of religion that mentions the freedom to be non-religious, which is a great step forward. But the problem was, nobody reads the platform, but they do tune in to the convention. There are some who I know are secular and are featured speakers like Bernie Sanders,  but they do not talk about secularism. It’s only in the platform. On the fourth night, the night Biden gave a speech, which I thought was pretty good.

Overall, I thought the convention went pretty well. I have been a democrat for many, man years. To say, ‘It went pretty well,’ means it wasn’t a total disaster [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Engel: But there was a lot of talk about Biden’s “faith.” Why they don’t talk about religion? I don’t know. The word “faith” is interesting. What does it actually mean? That’s an interesting question. They were talking a lot about faith. As a quick aside, I think a lot of the talk using the word faith came in during the second Bush Administration, George W. Bush. It started as an office of faith based initiatives in the administration, in the White House. I remember thinking, “If he had called it an office of religion-based initiatives, people would say, ‘No, you can’t do that.’ So, they call it: ‘Faith.’” What does the word “faith’ mean at that point?

In any event, on the fourth night, last night, they had a nun, a Catholic un, giving a benediction talking about religion, God, and Jesus. I am sitting there saying to myself, “You belong to an organization that covered up tens of thousands of instances of child abuse. You didn’t resign from that organization. Why are you being given a respected slot in the Democratic National Convention?” To me, if I was a member of an organization where the higher-ups covered up child abuse, I’d quit. In any event, we had senator Chris Coons, who I know is very religious because I have heard him speak before, talking about Biden being a man of faith, etc.

Again, I am not sure exactly what that means. I was turned off by it. I flipped on the basketball game, actually, at the time, because I don’t want to listen to this anymore. The Democratic Party, it is not like I am going to become a Republican or anything. Republicans would be happy to put somebody like me in concentration camps, “Move over immigrant children, and bring in the heathens.” It is not like I have anywhere else to go. I feel the progress has been made in the Democratic Party a little bit. But again, the platform being the evidence of that and the webinar from the secular democrats being part of that.

But when it comes to the big events, they are still squeamish about us. I think that hurts our attempt to be seen and heard in the greater community because here is a place; they would never say anything that that thought was even inadvertently offensive to many of the constituent groups of the Democratic Party, e.g., women, blacks, Latinx people, the LGBTQ community, but they feel comfortable saying things that are somewhat offensive to their secular part of their constituency.

That was problematic for me. Again, I support Biden and Harris. I actually like them both. But I don’t want to be ignored; I would like to get a little respect.

Jacobsen: Something as well, you pointed out something about the United States Constitution. You are a trained lawyer. You do have a J.D., a juris doctor.

Engel: I do. A few weeks ago, Trump, who will say anything [Laughing], was attacking Biden and said, “Biden is anti-God, anti-religion, and anti-Bible.” When democrats responded pretty uniformly, it was by pointing out Biden is a regular Catholic who goes to church. So, it’s not true. What I didn’t here democrats say, except for me, and my platform is pretty limited, “Article VI, Paragraph 3 of he Constitution says, ‘There shall never be any religious test for any office or trust under the United States.’ That’s in the Constitution. It was put there for a reason.

There was a perfect time to say that. It was a perfect time to say, “Look, he is wrong on the facts. Joe is religious. But it really doesn’t matter. Look at the Constitution.” It is a perfect teachable moment. I can tell you. I strongly doubt that there are many Americans who know about that provision in the Constitution. It was a time to say, “Hey, there is no religious test.” That is what the Founding Fathers put on the founding document. So, it doesn’t matter what Joe’s beliefs are. I didn’t here that. It was also disappointing to me. It was a great opportunity to teach people about the Constitution. You have so many people who think that this country was founded as a Christian religious nation, when it was clearly not. It was a great opportunity, in my view, missed to educate the general public about true freedom of religion from the Constitution. If freedom of religion doesn’t include the right to be free from religion, then it’s really pretty much worthless.

Jacobsen: Jon! Thank you for your time.

Engel: Oh, it’s my pleasure, Scott, as always. You take care of yourself.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

An Interview with Gayle Jordan – Executive Director, Recovering From Religion

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/08/28

Gayle Jordan is the Executive Director of Recovering From Religion. Her biography states: “Gayle is a former Southern Baptist who left the faith 10 years ago when her then-teenagers began asking questions she could not answer. Her research led her (and her children) into the light of reason and rationality. Years later, she still feels the effects, both positive and negative, of that dramatic shift in perspective and attitude. It is this sympathy and compassion that drives her to reach out to help others navigate the emotional and physical process involved in leaving one’s faith. Gayle is an attorney and former personal trainer. She lives on Freethought Farm in middle Tennessee, where she spends her days amongst her longhorns, goats, donkeys, chickens, and dogs. She blogs about life on the farm, endurance event training, and secularism at Happy. Healthy. Heathen.

*Interview conducted on June 6, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So! Today, we are with one of my favourite women secularists who I have been waiting a long time to interview. Happily, Dr. Darrel Ray of Recovering From Religion and the Secular Therapy Project gave the recommendation to me. Another person doing the work that needs to be done that hasn’t gotten enough coverage. I want to bring forward something the public may not know about, at least, in Canada, which is a quote or statement from a politician, male politician, who said, “In my 40+ years in politics, I’ve seen few candidates as dangerous as Gayle Jordan. We need to strongly reject her assault on faith and our Tennessee values.”

Gayle Jordan: [Laughing].

Jacobsen: Before we get into the other stuff, what was the context around that? How were you using that quote from that particular male politician?

Gayle Jordan: Thank you for remembering that. I ran for the state senate here in Tennessee in 2016 and in 2018. In 2016, it was a different era. If you remember, it was before the hard times for the U.S. [Laughing]. I didn’t get a lot of attention. It was my first time running for office. When I ran in 2018, it was unique circumstances. It was a special election. We were the only thing on the ballot. Trump had been elected. Things were a little bit different. I have been an atheist activist in my community for about 10 years. There was no getting around the fact that I am an out and vocal and visible atheist, nor did I have any desire to do that. So, when I ran for office that time, all of a sudden, it became an issue.

When we released the first campaign announcement, we said nothing about my beliefs. I was neither going to run on being an atheist, not was I going to run from it. A particular politician tweeted and attached the campaign video – thank you very much.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Jordan: That I was the most dangerous woman he had seen in his 40 years of politics. That person, the politician, was the Lieutenant-Governor of the State of Tennessee. It was a small state senate race. He felt the need to tweet that I was the most dangerous woman he had seen in his 40+ years in politics. I have highlighted that when telling my experience of running as an atheist. There is a talk available on the internet somewhere. I talk about, “Am I that dangerous?” I follow that up, “It depends on what you’re afraid of.” If you analyze it, if you are afraid someone will call you out for the Christian nationalism or the violation of church and state, then I might be the most dangerous woman in politics for you. Thank you for asking about that.

Jacobsen: If we take a long view, I have had some correspondence with some believers along a fundamentalist spectrum from Christian nationalist to end-timers. In corresponding with them, they have this notion, which is unusual as a Canadian. We don’t have this kind of social or political discussion as much if at all, at least in the mainstream media. In America, there is a mainstream discussion, which is illegitimate in my opinion. It comes down to America was founded as a Christian nation. If we look at the Treaty of Tripoli with John Adams stating, “America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.” The Constitution of the United States of America has no mention of the resurrection, of Christ, of Christianity. It has a firm bound between church and state. Where, then, is this coming from? Even around minor points of “In God We Trust” on the money, but I looked at that too, it didn’t come from 1776. It was imposed in 1956. So, where is this discourse coming from?

Jordan: Goodness sake, that’s the question of the hour. Isn’t it? Especially with the evangelical support of Trump and all of his policies, I can help but plug my friend’s, Andrew Seidel’s, book, The Founding Myth: Why Christian Nationalism Is Un-American. It gives so much background on how we have come here and the propensity for people, if you believe that the country was founded on Judeo-Christian values. It was the greatest motivator. Those two things are connected. The debate is overwhelming. I think it is a combination of the Dominionism of wanting to have control. I think it is the demographic freight train bearing down on a certain political party in our country. They see it the light at the end of the tunnel, as the freight train is bearing down on the. I think a lot plays into it. It is the question of out time. The belief on the part of those evangelicals that to be a Christian is to be a patriot. It is so entwined. Those of us who don’t share that belief are having to make our voices heard, “Really, really, no, that’s not what makes a patriot.” Here’s how I try to bring it around, it is to ask if our Founding Fathers/Founders wanted to make this a Christian nation; how would the Constitution read if they intended it?

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Jordan: The Constitution is so secular. So when you ask the question that way, maybe, it helps people to think. If they wanted this to be a Christian nation, imagine if they wanted the language, then they simply didn’t.

Jacobsen: In the inception of the country, I agree with George Carlin in one of his last interviews. When he noted, of course, there were the crimes against the Native Americans with genocide and stealing of territorial land, enslavement of black Africans into North America, as well as annexation of Mexican land, but the ideas were good. That’s the story of America. Its narrative is a lot of civil and social rights movements, including the emancipation of women. So, at the same time, it is almost as if there has been a lost voice in the freethought community. We hear from Black Nonbelievers of Mandisa Thomas. We hear from Dr. Sikivu Hutchinson in a recent book, Humanists in the Hood. We hear from Hispanic freethinkers. We hear from general community in different categories of atheist, agnostic. All more or less on the same page.

But there’s one group not talked about as much or at all. I am talking about Native Americans in America or Aboriginals in Canada. For clarification of those reading this later on, in Canada, this means First Nations, Metis, and Inuit, where Metis is French-First Nations mix. If you look at the Vice-President of Humanist Canada, he’s Metis. If you look at the Freedom From Religion Foundation of the great Annie Laurie Gaylor and Dan Barker, Barker has Lenni Lenape or the Delaware Tribe of Indians heritage. So, they’re around in community, but I don’t see this discussed as much. Have you noticed this as much?

Jordan: I’m so glad that you brought this up, Scott. I haven’t put a voice to it, quite so much. But as you talk it through and as you identify that, I agree with you. I think that’s a miss on our part if we neglect that. In theory and in the abstract, I think we’d all say, “Yes, let’s reach out, this would be part of the greater secular community.” I don’t think there would be any disagreement about that. But as we have learned through the ages, it takes effort and elevating those voices. I think you’re correct about that. Perhaps, it’s an area where we all need to focus and give some attention and resources to.

Jacobsen: Now, one note, I have heard from some who don’t want mention. But within community, if they’re Aboriginal or Native American, whatever the particular band that they might be from, if they come out as a freethinker – in other words, they reject the supernaturalist claims, though having the ethnic heritage, when they told me, it was the same narrative, I heard, from African Americans who come out of the Baptist Church or the Methodist Church. If they leave, the idea of African American identity being connected to the black church is so entwined. That to leave the black church is to be considered not as much African American anymore or to have “thrown away the black card.” You lose all of the communal and collective resources, e.g., social, financial, etc., within the community, when you reject that supernaturalism. It appears to be the same, at least in some small sample that I’ve heard from, in some of the Aboriginal or Native American communities. That would be something that I would want the public to be sensitive about if they were to do any of this form of outreach. It will not be easy.

Jordan: Clearly, and unfortunately, as we have discovered through the African American community, and through others who have struggled with this, there appears to be one way out of that. That is visibility and breaking free of it. Those folks who are leaders, e.g., Mandisa, and others in the African American community. It takes taking the pushback and getting all of the negative comments, the negative feedback, and everything associated with that seems to help a way out. We have to help those people show that it’s not true. That just because we have rejected supernatural beliefs, and because we have rejected this cultural tradition, this church or whatever belief system, doesn’t take away from us, our heritage. I think you’re right. I think we need to go into that kind of outreach with that kind of sensitivity, as in every cultural movement. Those leaders, those folks who lead the way. They have to take so much of that pushback. I think that’s, tragically, the way out of it. It is to become visible, to become vocal, to become seen.

Jacobsen: Now, you are the executive for Recovering From Religion. First things first, how did you get involved?

Jordan: I am a formerly religious person. When I made my transition, it was 10 or 12 years ago now. Recovering From Religion was nothing but a germ of an idea in the brain of the brilliant Dr. Darrel Ray. As I began to transition, as I began to become familiar with the secular community, when the opportunity became available for this, it was such a wonderful experience. Our mission statement is so straightforward, Scott. We provide hope, healing, and support for folks who are struggling with issues of doubt and non-belief. We zealously guard mission drift. Everything we do has been focused around that statement. In such alignment with my own experience, it was a pleasure and a privilege for me to join the organization and to have the opportunity to lead it forward. It has been one of the greatest joys in my life.

Jacobsen: What are some of the heartening stories?

Jordan: As you know, we have a 24-hour telephone chat and 24-hour internet chat. The reason is we’re international. Not only are out clients around the world, our volunteers are as well. As folks reach out to us, we have a spectrum of where people originate. They might just be having doubts. They might be highly religious and just have doubts, and feel as if they can reach out with a question as we are a non-judgmental place. They may be very far in their journey, but they may need a little support. The stories that we’ve heard. Some of them start arduously. They are starting to have doubts and working through them. We ask questions and give feedback to help them process what they’re thinking and feeling. Some of those conversations, even in the course of a chat or a telephone call, you can see the person, not make progress to discount their beliefs but them, develop their critical thinking skills, developing their own skepticism. So, they can look squarely at what they embraced and have been taught to believe, and apply their minds to whether or not this is a reasonable, scientific evidence-based logical belief to embrace.

To me, that is the heartwarming stories. Of course, there are always stories of people who have always come through some pretty fundamentally damaging experiences and have come through the other side, but, for me, the gratifying phone calls are when people learn, “Okay, why do I believe this? Where did this come from? Let me examine it. Is there evidence for it?” That’s the process. We don’t want to tell people what religion does. It is not healthy anyway. We want them to tap into their own ability to be skeptical and critical of their beliefs. From my perspective, those are the heartwarming stories.

Jacobsen: Where are you getting most of your calls?

Jordan: Most of them start in the United States. But we, recently, added unique numbers for Australia and the United Kingdom. So, they can use our phone system. Before, they were limited because they were limited to the internet. With the addition of the other numbers, there is an increase. Let’s say there is a call from Australia, but it is ringing into an actual Australian volunteer, we see this beautiful picture happening with the clients and the volunteers coming from all over to provide this hope, healing, and support to those folks who are having these questions.

Jacobsen: What are some of the most common concerns brought to you?

Jordan: If you think this question through yourself, then you can probably do pretty good. One is, “How can you be a moral person without religion?” It seems to underly a lot of things. That seems like a big one. Another is the lingering fear of hell. The underlying stuff of the belief system, you should because it is such a horrifying concept. Another reason people reach out to the helpline because of the fractured social relationships. When you disassociate with a faith, there are people in community who cannot manage that any other way than saying, “You’re discarding me, this community, by rejecting what we commonly believe.” It is not the truth because people leave a religion, not the family, but the rest of family is in the grips of the religion. It is difficult for those folks to reject the belief without rejecting the family. The fracturing, it is the main reason for the internet and the phone line.

Jacobsen: Are there different kinds of questions men and women bring forward when they are looking to find a way out of a religious community? I can give an example as a trend. If you look at some of the former Muslim communities coming out of theocratic or outright theocracy countries, they, often, note the men have a lot more social freedom, a lot more access to financial resources. The men have a lot more leeway in terms of freedom in their lives. The women don’t. They are stuck in the home and don’t have control over the financial situation. Also, they don’t have any training to become independent in any way. Women would have more concerns, concrete and actionable, based on more degrees of freedom for the men and the fewer degrees of freedom for the women.

Jordan: What an astute analysis of the gender issue that would arise in the helpline, you’ve already identified from the surface, so many religions are so patriarchal. The restrictions on the men are so vastly different, particularly in the fundamentalist versions of all the religions. The role restrictions for men and for women, another thing is the women are often stuck with the childrearing. It feeds into their questions. Let’s say a young mother having concerns about that, it will reflect directly on her parenting. She will be terrified of this. She is applying critical thinking skills. At the same time, she has the burden, “I am going to have an impact on my children if I come out.” The men do too. But I think the women, particularly in traditional relationships, traditional families, which is another thing. Women have to deal with this as they come to us. It is not just gender roles. It is sexuality as well. Religion is so intrusive into our management – so to speak – of our sexuality. It is another entire layer, which has to be dissected and examined, relearned, and unindoctrinated, to come to conclusions about one’s gender and sexuality. Those issues are heavy with the religious community as people come to us to work with their struggles.

Jacobsen: Also for the DMS-V, in 2013, sex or sexual addiction was proposed for inclusion. It was rejected. Therefore, it is not a formal psychological condition, syndrome, or disorder. However, as I have done some research on many of these, many Christian counsellors will specialize in what they term ‘Sexual Addiction.’ They’re coming out of these training institutes or universities, private. They will specialize or do treatment in ‘Sexual Addiction.’ At the same time, they probably will know as well. It is not included in any DSM sections. In a manner of speaking, they are broadly doing malpractice to the general public when they are proposing this as a psychological construct. It is, actually, Dr. Darrel Ray pointed out to me. It is a theological construct posed as psychological.

Jordan: What a perfect segue into The Secular Therapy Project, we have a professional staff of colleagues and counsellors. Advocates who only provide evidence-based therapy. When a client reaches out, they are able to find them in their community. Secular therapists are at a disadvantage. If they hang out a shingle saying, “Only secular therapy here,” America is so heavily religious. In a lot of religious areas, this would decimate their practice. Even though religious people want a secular therapy, oftentimes, they will have an adverse reaction to “secular.” They’re in a catch-22. Recently, we’ve helped our 20,000th client because we have done the groundwork in making sure therapists only provide that (evidence-based therapy). The expression, “Sex Addiction,” the language, itself, implies sex is a bad thing. You have too much of it. It is going to be a problem. You’re right. It hasn’t been included as a diagnosis. However, often, therapists who are not secular therapists and who are not as scrupulous about providing secular therapy will go about treating, thinking, “This is a thing.”

Dr. Darrel Ray, the founder of Recovering From Religion and the president of the board of directors, if you look online, has a massive amount of lectures, which he as done on this. He has studies he has done on this. This is something Recovering From Religion supports through The Secular Therapy Project is ensuring that you do not walk into a therapist’s office who doesn’t look remotely religious on the outside. Yet, you open up in the sessions. You reveal personal information to them. Then in the 3rd, 4th, or more sessions, and then they begin to hear about finding a church community and about ‘sex addiction.’

Jacobsen: Now, I have done some educational sessions with Dr. Caleb Lack. Who are some other individuals people should keep in mind, support, signal boost in other words, on behalf of The Secular Therapy Project and Recovering From Religion?

Jordan: I appreciate you giving the opportunity to say that. Dr. Caleb Lack was the director of The Secular Therapy Project for about four years. He stepped down last December. He serves as emeritus and gives us counsel. Dr. Eric Sprankle is now the director of The Secular Therapy Project. He and his staff, all of the information can be found at our website: www.recoveringfromreligion.org and https://www.seculartherapy.org/. The work that they’re doing on what you mentioned earlier about academics. The people coming out of training with licenses and degrees. Yet, they are providing religious therapy to people. That’s a problem. Because people lean into this. It is not legitimate therapy. He and his staff, Dr. Sprankle and his staff are working to educate folks and help clients who reach out to us understand. It matters. Evidence-based therapy matter in the long-term mental health in everyone who needs some kind of mental health assistance.

Jacobsen: Is this part of another long-term trend in the United States, Canada, elsewhere, or religious individuals consciously being told by religious leaders to reach out to vulnerable people to spread the Gospel or whatever it might be?

Jordan: I think so. In trying to give them every benefit of the doubt, and trying to see them in the best light possible, perhaps, they are doing that consciously or their indoctrination coming through. Or perhaps, it is a little more insidious and intentional. They do see the value of exploiting folks who need a little bit of support and assistance. Drilling down on those doubts and fears, and supplanting and furthering religious doctrine, so, people can stay longer in the religion. I mentioned the demographic freight train with young people leaving religion. I would hate to think that religious mental health practitioners are doing this intentionally. Unfortunately, religion has the power to do that to people. I think the answer is it is probably more intentional than we would like for it to be.

Jacobsen: There is a lot of talk, appropriate at the moment, around forms of institutional discrimination. There is a long-term one, as long as many others, which is anti-freethought-ism, or something like this, where individuals, by the nature of legal apparatus and the policy and law framework, are left out of the power structures of the society. Dr. Herb Silverman made a record in South Carolina when he challenged a case around atheists not being allowed to run for public office. Many of those laws are on the book. That’s one case among many. How could we, potentially, for instance, alongside your own efforts, make a public effort of identifying these discriminatory policies and frameworks?

Jordan: That’s a good question. There are seven states whose state constitutions prevent an atheist from running for office. I think the language is something like a ‘belief in a higher power.’ They are archaic. Yet, they exist. They are still there. We have learned from LGBTQ brothers and sisters, and other social movements, that visibility is everything. It is the way we normalize it whenever we’re visible. Every time we get blowback. It is less if they have seen a series of freethinkers. You can almost gauge a person’s exposure to this thing [Laughing] by how strong their reaction is.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Jordan: Because the next person is a little bit less, and the next a little bit less. It is the key to letting people know. I am not the first person to think of this. As secular organizations, we all recognize visibility normalizes us. It makes people realize, even in the most religious of communities, that there are freethinking people among us. Whether you are running for state senate or just a member of your community, or volunteering on your local animal control board, or whatever it is, it is not that you have to wear an atheist shirt every time that you show up. Each person has to make a determination as to how they are going manage who they are, but not keeping it a secret that you are a freethinker, going with the flow, not disabusing someone of the notion that you’re a religious person. These are things that we need to get away from. Let us be visible, let us be vocal, let us be verbal, and agree, that kind of thing does more to further what we’re doing.

You don’t have to be outstanding or a high achieve, just a normal member of community who happens not to be a member of the community. As we make progress as a society, the more we can show that we are happy, healthy, functioning, contributing members of a society, and do not have religious belief. I think that is where the progress will come from. We need the big dogs. We need the big visibility. But not everyone can do that or wants to do that. Your family, your small neighbourhood, “I am a normal person like everyone else. I have struggles. I have issues. My kids are involved in this. Yet, I am not a religious person.” That on the granular level is as important as the high achievers.

Jacobsen: Now, on the gender and sex point, I wrote a several ten thousand word article incorporating several interviews over a significant amount of time of women in the secular community in terms of disproportionate negative treatment cases with some noteworthy news cases or a lack of representation of women of color in some of the organizational leadership, or the void in coverage on the history of women who have been very powerful moral forces in the history of secular activism across the freethought spectrum. It can even come to the case of people like Frederick Douglass being the first African American man part of a congress or a conference of women’s suffragists. And so, we see these areas of just below the surface, not hidden history, just overlooked history. What do you think are some things in the 2020s secular organizations could do to better cover the history that is there, and then to provide better representation for women in leadership? Some are doing this. It is not a concern for them. It is area of newer emphasis.

Jordan: Sure, it is a good question. My answer will not surprise you. The number one thing our secular organizations can do is to model this and to bring in women in positions of leadership, not just women, e.g., people of color. The modelling is the very first step. There is value to campaigns to try to educate people. The Freedom From Religion Foundation does a good job, highlights the voices in history. I think we all need to do that. At least as important as that, it is modelling. It is elevating them to positions of leadership, so they can be heard, can be highlighted. I think our movement is not perfect. I think as a secular movement as a whole; if we’re not succeeding at it, at least, we’re recognizing it. Of course, we can always do better. Out of all of the areas of our society, we have a responsibility because we understand the value in recognizing the lesser heard voice, to highlight them and bring them to the front. I think it takes an active intention on the part of our organizations – implementing and doing it is another thing. Modelling is the most important part of it.

Jacobsen: And this is a moral or an ethical question, which leads to something I wanted to talk about as well. A split in philosophical discourses in America and the United States, far more in the United States than in Canada. One is a transcendental traditional religious ethic, where morality gets outsourced to a transcendent object, which asserts grounds this morality more. Another is an international (secular) human rights framework for deciding or deliberating on various ethical questions. Now, the former does not permit equal status for the other part, while the latter does permit freedom of religion, belief, and conscience, which implies equal status for all. So, if we’re going to have an equal future together, religious/non-religious, then it will have to be an international human rights framework rather than a transcendental religious framework as nations and individuals. What are some risks in the United States with the rise of President Trump, Evangelical Christian nationalism, even Dominionism, into areas of decision-making power, policy-making power, with extraordinarily devout movements who simply want to have a religious framework on the world placed into political power and legal structures, which is not theocracy outright but is a theocratic orientation, certainly?

Jordan: What a profound question [Laughing], and what a profound topic, that’s everything. It has been the desire of the secular movement. We go through phases. We go through progressions, “What is our focus?” Sometimes, we focus on the right to not be religious, which is great. We fight for it. Sometimes, we fight for current cultural issues, racism, sexism. All of them are valid. What underlies all of that, and, maybe, the conversation fundamental to all of it is, “What does it mean to us, to be a good, moral person?” That is fundamentally the conversation. What do we mean by those words? What is a fundamentally good person? How do we dissect what religion teach and what a secular worldview gives us? Let’s first talk about, what does it mean to us to be a good, kind, moral person?

When we define that, it may be a little more subjective. It may not be entirely objectively because of regional and cultural differences. But if we can lay the groundwork for respecting other people’s human rights, respecting other people’s civil rights, giving people to follow their conscience, first, we have to decide that. What does it mean? Then, now, we can move onto the conversation. What most fosters that? What most fosters people being good members of the community, of the society? What are the activities one needs to take?  DO we embrace universal education for all citizens? Let’s define what we mean by being a good human being, being a good citizen, how do we have that happen? Do religions foster that? Any religion of any kind, do they do that? Does a secular worldview do that? I think religious folks, as they struggle through this, as they work against their indoctrination; this authoritarian, Dominionist attitude, let’s not make it too personal, yet, on particular religions.

First, let’s talk about caring about fellow human beings, what does it take for a village or a society to thrive, for everyone to thrive? Then let’s see how we do that, I have gotten a little far afield. Your question is profound. I wish I had the answer to it. Fundamentally, backing away from “Is religion good?” or “Is there a God?”, those are great and theoretical. But first let’s identify, what makes for a healthy, thriving society, which, of course, is made of healthy and thriving individuals? Then we can go forward from there. Maybe, that is the conversation that we’re not having enough of; it may help reach the religious brothers and sisters more rather than bringing religion into it from the beginning.

Jacobsen: Looking to the final question for our denouement, on the note we started, for the woman seen as the most dangerous woman in 40+ years of this politician’s political life, what are the most effective pivots, pressure points, for secular activism in America now?

Jordan: I think, in the United States, it is a shit show. We have so many issues, which are critical “pressure points,” “pivot points,” as you call them. Secular people need to lead the way on this, whether criminal justice, economic equality. All of the components of that. We have sexism. We have such foundational inequality in economics. We have educational inequality. All of these, we are in a mess right now. We’ll get through this. Right now, instead of seeing this as a tremendous difficult time, we can see this as the secular worldview in which there is not the decisiveness of religion. It may not be a way to solve these issues, but to better resolve these issues. Let’s model the way that secular thought and embracing, we’re all human beings, faulty human beings. The secular worldview of there’s no chosen people. There’s not a blessed people. When we get away from that, we will see that we are all in this together. We will all thrive when we work take care of one another, build our communities, work together, when we try to resolve some of these issues, the secular worldview has a greater ability to bring us out of this. It is not an easy task. It will not be solved in one generation, or even two or three. It is our best avenue out of these cultural issues that we are beset by, as we go through this difficult time in our history. I think all of these are potential pivot points. I think all of us need the attention of the secular community and the explanation of how a secular worldview can bring us closer to resolving this issue than any kind of religious worldview ever has.

Jacobsen: Gayle, it’s been lovely. Thank you so much for your time.

Jordan: Oh! It has been lovely. I am so grateful for being able to do this. It has been wonderful, Scott. Not only am I grateful for it on behalf of Recovering From Religion, but I have thoroughly enjoyed it, I appreciate you reaching out to me.

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Conversation with Jennifer Herrera – Vice President, External Affairs, National Women’s History Museum (U.S.)

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/08/25

Jennifer Herrera, M.A., vice president of external affairs, is the chief communications officer for the National Women’s History Museum, where she oversees all public affairs, marketing, and media relations efforts.

On August 26, 2020, the National Women’s History Museum will celebrate the 100th anniversary of the ratification of the 19th Amendment with a full day of free programming and the launch of its new non-partisan voter engagement initiative, Women Vote, Women Win.  Programming includes  two virtual “Determined to Rise” panels, several film screenings, and a concert and rally to increase votes by and for women before the November election.

*Interview conducted on August 25, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: This is from the National Women’s History Museum. We’re going to be taking a programmatic perspective, an organizational perspective, on women’s history, women’s rights, in the United States. As many have noted, I am not original on this. This is a crucial moment in American rights history. What are some of the flagship programs of the National Women’s History Museum in regards to reminding individuals of the importance of fighting for women’s rights? In addition, how do you convey some of the histories of women’s rights to the next generations who are standing atop those rights? So, they may not understand the history of the rights or the time before the rights being established. 

Jennifer Herrera: We exist as a museum because, traditionally, have been left out of the history books. We know that so many women’s history, voices, and stories remain uncovered and unshared. So, we feel a great responsibility to bring these stories to the light of day. That’s our responsibility as an institution. We do this through programming and events and providing resources to learners of all ages. So, that way, they can take away a broader and more complete understanding of history that includes the many contributions and accomplishments of the women who helped write it.  In terms of conveying to the next generation, history is now. History is the past, but it is also the present. It is looking at history with the imperative lens of, not only uncovering the voices of the past but, also documenting the stories as we go. So, that way, in the future, we don’t have to construct the stories in hindsight. We have narratives. We know what the many accomplishments of women are. That’s our charge. We want to make sure that historic stories and contemporary stories are being told, so women are not left behind. 

We do this through a lot of programming and events. For example, a few months ago, we launched the project, in the wake of the pandemic, called “Women Writing History.” The coronavirus journaling project, we asked women to share their experiences with us – of living through Covid-19. We asked them to do that in a variety of ways. We talk about the concept of journaling. What is journaling? It is not writing in a physical journal; it could be keeping an online diary, photographs, art, videos, iPhone recordings, and so on. Any way we can get women to document their experiences. We wanted them to do for this project. We asked women to journal in whatever way fits their preferences. To date, we have over 900 women to participate in this coronavirus journal project. Since we have asked them to submit physical copies or electronic copies for 30, 60, 90 days, or more, we are starting to collect the submissions from over the last several months. Because women want their voices heard. They don’t want to be left out of the Covid-19 story.

Jacobsen: Now, with the previous election in the United States and the current Trump Administration, following it, there was a very rapid series of forms of activism on the parts of men and women for women’s rights. How does the history look in the United States? Is this a common theme? A theme where there is either a representative, a movement, or a change in the legal structure that would either threaten or pull back the women’s rights gains in the United States, then there is a massive or a reasonably large pushback to re-instantiate and further some of the progress for women’s rights in the United States? Is this a common theme? 

Herrera: Yes, time and time again, we have seen women at the forefront of social change. Often, they are under-represented in the narrative about the change. As a museum dedicated to the representation of women, it is really exciting to us to see such historic progress being made in terms of the representation of women across all political spectrums, across all levels of government. Women stepping off the sidelines and engaging in politics in whatever form. It is exciting to see women are working to support other women. They are creating organizations to ensure women can run for office and ensuring women can be elected to office. I am not sure if that answers the question. Women continue to be at the forefront of social change. We saw historic levels of participation in 2016, in 2018. Again, we see it this year, where so many women are running for office and breaking the barriers that still have yet to be broken, fighting to break these barriers.

Jacobsen: What is the importance of the recent news about Kamala Harris in the United States?

Herrera: Kamala continues to break barriers. So, the significance is how truly incredible it is – to have a woman running on a major party ticket. It speaks to women running at all levels of government. The urgency and the need to have this representation in the highest levels of government. It is historic. She is the first black woman and first Asian-American woman to run for Vice-President on a major party ticket. That is groundbreaking. That shouldn’t be a one-off. It should be every year. We continue to see women represented at the highest levels of government, whether a gubernatorial race or even on the down-ballot races. Women continue to be under-represented in politics. But we are making change, progress has been made. Kamala’s inclusion on this ticket speaks volumes because it is another place where women have made progress. What we hope to see moving forward, women are included on other tickets. This representation should happen in every election.

Jacobsen: We should cover something, which I received this morning. It is a new initiative coming out of the National Women’s History Museum. It is called “Women Vote, Women Win.” What was the inspiration for the initiative or the ways people can attend?

Herrera: On the 26th of August, it is the celebration of the ratification of the 19th Amendment. It is a pivotal moment in American history and women’s history. We recognized, for so many women, the fight continues, so many women of colour, Native American women, Asian American women, black women, Hispanic women. It is really important to highlight all of the women who worked so hard for the right to vote. Not just up until 1920, but beyond, there were so many women involved in this fight. The history routinely covers very few of them. It was the inspiration for how we celebrate the centennial and recognizing that this fight was so extensive and continues today with voting rights. We need to make sure. What better way to honour all of the women who fought bravely for the right of women to vote than asking women today to become active, engaged citizens in democracy by voting themselves? So, we really wanted to recognize the hard work and the tremendous sacrifices women have made for the right to vote by encouraging participation in this fundamental right. 

Jacobsen: If we are looking at the election and after the election coming up, on the assumption that it runs, what are some of the plans for initiatives, events, after that point – forms of activism after that election?

Herrera: In terms of the initiatives, we’re doing. So, we’re in the middle of planning right now. Our focus is to ensure there is a greater representation of women and women’s stories heard, included in the history books, as we continue to write history today. How are these stories and narratives shared? What we plan to do after the election, it is still coming together, as you can imagine. The pandemic has changed a lot of things that we were planning on doing in person. It has opened up a lot of possibilities in terms of the content. We continue to deliver, virtually. We are going to continue to mark the centennial, the ratification of the 19th Amendment with more programming, e.g. “Determined to Rise” series, additional panel discussion, additional publications, and sharing the content from the panel discussions that we’ve already had before. We’re looking to explore opportunities with women, trail-blazing women, as they related to their work primarily in politics, advocacy work. The next issue of our magazine will look at women and the pandemic to share the stories of women on the front lines and explore how women are being disproportionately affected by Covid-19. Our late Fall issue/early Winter issue, will come out in December is about the centennial and the fantastic organizations, which exist to support women running for public office and holding elected office. We are continuing to develop content and programming that really shows the power of women voting, shows the power of women engaging in the political process at all levels of government. It is the power of what happens when a woman steps off the sidelines and decides to become engaged.

Jacobsen: Jennifer, thank you so much for your time today.

Herrera: Thank you, Scott, I really appreciate it.

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Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 8 (w/ Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967) – Annexation, International Law, Occupation, Rights, and Settlements

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/08/18

Omar Shakir, J.D., M.A. works as the Israel and Palestine Director for Human Rights Watch. He investigates a variety of human rights abuses within the occupied Palestinian territories/Occupied Palestinian Territories or oPt/OPT (Gaza and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem) and Israel. He earned a B.A. in International Relations from Stanford University, an M.A. in Arab Studies from Georgetown University’s School of Foreign Affairs, and a J.D. from Stanford Law School. He is bilingual in Arabic and English. Previously, he was a Bertha Fellow at the Center for Constitutional Rights with a focus on U.S. counterterrorism policies, which included legal representation of Guantanamo detainees. He was the Arthur R. and Barbara D. Finberg Fellow (2013-2014) for Human Rights Watch with investigations, during this time, into the human rights violations in Egypt, e.g., the Rab’a massacre, which is one of the largest killings of protestors in a single day ever. Also, he was a Fulbright Scholar in Syria.

Professor S. Michael Lynk is the current (7th) United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967 (March, 2016 to Present). He is an Associate Professor at the Faculty of Law, Western University, in London, Ontario, who works in one of the most important legal and investigative positions in the history of rights and law reportage for the United Nations on this issue of Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories. 

Language of the oPt/OPT is recognized in the work of the OHCHRAmnesty InternationalOxfam InternationalUnited NationsWorld Health OrganizationInternational Labor OrganizationUNRWAUNCTAD, and so on. Some see the Israeli-Palestinian issue as purely about religion. Thus, this matters to freethought. These ongoing interviews explore this issue in more depth.

Here we continue with the 8th part in our series of conversations with coverage in the middle of March to the middle of April for the Israeli-Palestinian issue. With the deportation of Shakir, this follows in line with state actions against others, including Amnesty International staff member Laith Abu Zeyad when attempting to see his mother dying from cancer (Amnesty International, 2019a; Zeyad, 2019; Amnesty International, 2020), United States Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib and United States Congresswoman Ilhan Omar who were subject to being barred from entry (Romo, 2019), Professor Noam Chomsky who was denied entry (Hass, 2010), and Dr. Norman Finkelstein who was deported in the past (Silverstein, 2008). Shakir commented in an opinion piece:

Over the past decade, authorities have barred from entry MIT professor Noam Chomsky, U.N. special rapporteurs Richard Falk and Michael Lynk, Nobel Peace Prize winner Mairead Maguire, U.S. human rights lawyers Vincent Warren and Katherine Franke, a delegation of European Parliament members, and leaders of 20 advocacy groups, among others, all over their advocacy around Israeli rights abuses. Israeli and Palestinian rights defenders have not been spared. Israeli officials have smearedobstructed and sometimes even brought criminal charges against them. (Shakir, 2019)

Now, based on the decision of the Israeli Supreme Court and the actions of the Member State of the United Nations, Israel, he, for this session, works from Amman, Jordan. Similarly, Lynk remains prevented from carrying out the full capacities of the position based on barring from entry.

*Interview conducted on May 13, 2020. The previous interview conducted on April 19, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: To begin, this is a 3-way conversation with S. Michael Lynk and Omar Shakir. We are going to talk about annexation and an overview of the Israel-Palestine issue (Jacobsen, 2020a). On May 1, Michael, you released a press release (United Nations Human Rights Office of the High Commissioner, 2020) that was based around some of the annexation ongoing, which is based on a proposal from the White House (White House Staff, 2020). Also, the outcome would be akin to, or would be, Bantustans (The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica, 2019). The terms used by you, phrasing, “Palestinian Bantustan, an archipelago of disconnected islands of territory” (United Nations Human Rights Office of the High Commissioner, 2020). Can you expand on some of that and the implications for the lives of Palestinians and rights?

Professor Michael Lynk: This stems, most immediately, from the proposals in the Trump Peace to Prosperity plan (White House Staff, 2020) released at the end of January 2020, which calls for, among other things, the annexation by Israel of 30% of the West Bank, including much of the Jordan Valley and all of the 240 or more settlements (BBC News, 2020a; United Nations Human Rights Office of the High Commissioner, 2019). Obviously, the ones already in East Jerusalem are annexed, but 225 to 230 in the West Bank (Collard, 2012). This includes not only those who are close to the Israeli border, the seamline, and the separation wall, but also those who are quite deep into Palestinian territory. They create fingers of annexation and sovereignty, which would make an archipelago of what the Palestinians would be left with – to have a “state.”[1]

The important point to make about the annexation – that is, the formal de jure[2] annexation by Israel as outlined in the Trump plan and, apparently, as agreed to by the coalition agreement between Mr. Netanyahu and his new partner, Benny Gantz – is that it changes everything and it changes nothing (BBC News, 2020b).

It changes everything in the sense that Israel is now planning to step forward and make a formal annexation of about 1/3rd of the West Bank including all of the settlements in the occupied territory (Federman, 2020a; Zion, 2020; Federman, 2020b; The Associated Press). Eventually, this would mean the application of Israeli domestic law to the settlements instead of the formulation of the forms of special laws applying to the settlements (Amnesty International, 2019b).[3]

So, this changes everything in the sense that it is another form of annexation in East Jerusalem in 1980 and the Syrian Golan Heights in 1981 (UNISPAL, 1997; Jacobsen, 2020c; ECF, 2019).[4] Neither of which were recognized by the international community.[5] Both annexations were condemned in U.N. Security Council resolutions (United Nations, 1980a; United Nations, 1980b).[6],[7] This new annexation will now require the international community, particularly Europe and other powerful players in North America and other places in the Western world, to express a stance and, ideally, to take sanction measures[8] against Israel in the same way with sanction measures applied to Russia and its annexation of Crimea in 2014.[9],[10] This changes everything, as I said, in the formal renunciation of the Oslo process[11] and the end to any meaningful Palestinian state[12].

But it also changes nothing. The lives of Palestinians either in Area C (OCHAOPT, n.d.) under Israeli civil and security control or the Palestinians in Areas A and B in the towns and cities primarily in the center of the West Bank don’t change at all (BBC News, 2019). As before, they won’t have access to settlement roads (B’Tselem, 2004). As before, they will continue to lose land to settlement and military use by the Israeli occupation (Tahhan, 2017). As before, they still will not be able to vote in elections to form the government that ultimately controls their day to day decisions of their lives, i.e., the Israeli government (Krauss, & Daraghmeh, 2019).[13] What has happened over the last 50 years has been the steady process of a de facto annexation, where Israel took many different steps to alienate property from the Palestinians in the West Bank and offered enormous incentives for Israelis and immigrants to Israel to move into these settlements, which geographically hemmed in the Palestinians (El-Ad, 2020).

What the Palestinians have been left with are archipelagos of fragmented lands, there are 165 different islands of land in the West Bank, meaning that the Palestinians have very restricted freedom of movement (B’Tselem, 2017). When you have restricted personal freedom of movement, it also means restricted freedom of movement with respect to trading, importing goods, and finding external markets for their products as well (European Commission, 2020). So, you have a stunted economy with the restricted freedom of movement (B’Tselem, 2017; European Commission, 2020). All in all, what may happen or probably will happen sometime after the first of July will be a seismic change in the Middle East with the endorsement of a formal annexation. Yet, in many other ways, it will remain a continuation of life as it has been for the Palestinians as it has been.

Jacobsen: Omar, from the point of view of Human Rights Watch, how is this continuation going on without much or any consequences for the Israeli government?

Omar Shakir: In many ways, the Israeli push for annexation stems from the failure of the international community to sufficiently use its leverage to stop systematic Israeli rights abuse.[14] The reality here goes back decades. Israel has continued to build settlements, which are a clear violation of international humanitarian law[15], and have continued to further entrench a discriminatory system that treats Palestinians living in the same territory separately and unequally in virtually every aspect of life from legal status, to freedom to move, to freedom to build, to security of the legal status, to their ability to access water and electricity (Human Rights Watch, 2010). Annexation, in many ways, would merely formalize what has been the de facto reality where the Israeli government controls the entire area between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River and rules over Palestinians unequally compared to Jewish Israelis and systematically suppresses them (Human Rights Watch, 2019b; Human Rights Watch, 2018; Human Rights Watch, 2019a; Human Rights Watch, 2020a). The reality is the peace process for half the life of the occupation has effectively become a fig leaf for this discriminatory Israeli rule. The international community allowed itself to be sucked into the narratives of temporary occupation, Palestinian self-governance, Israeli egalitarian democracy, and the peace process; all of which are smoke screens to a very apparent reality, where 6.6 million or so Palestinians live in this area between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea, as do 6.6 or so Jewish Israelis, with Palestinians treated unequally in virtually every aspect of life.

The international community should use annexation as a wake-up call to both understand the reality of what is going on, on the ground, as well as to adopt the human rights based measures regularly taken in other parts of the world with abuses this grave. A peace process assumes that the problem is one that negotiations, as opposed to human rights measures, can cure. It is the wrong diagnosis for the underlying problem here. I think it’s beyond time in the international community to shift to action and accountability in holding Israeli authorities, as well as Palestinians when they abuse rights, to account for their serious abuses (Human Rights Watch, 2020b; Human Rights Watch, 2017).

Lynk: If I can add to that.

Jacobsen: Please.

Lynk: I don’t think that we would be here today discussing annexation here in 2020 if the world had imposed meaningful accountability measures in 1980 with the annexation of Jerusalem or in 1981 with the annexation of the Syrian Golan Heights (ECF, 2019; UNISPAL, 1997; Jacobsen, 2020c). We have virtually all the laws that we need to be able to assess that this occupation is illegal. The settlements are illegal.[16],[17],[18] The human rights violations – the various forms of collective punishment[19],[20], the blockage of Gaza[21],[22], the denial of self-determination[23] – are illegal; the location of the separation wall, is illegal. What we need is not more laws, we need accountability (The Palestinian Information Center, 2019; Jacobsen, 2020d; United Nations General Assembly, 2019).[24] It has been sorely missing in all of this. What I often note, particularly in the last weeks when discussing the issue of annexation with international audiences, is how swift the international community was to bring in meaningful and significant sanctions against Russia in 2014 with respect to its annexation of Crimea[25] and Sevastopol[26] (European Council/Council of the European Union, 2020; Popovici, 2018). Even though, these sanctions didn’t have the endorsement of the United Nations because of the Russian veto[27] in the Security Council (Chappell, 2014). Yet, there was a very swift movement to degrade political relations with Russia, to bring in targeted sanctions on specific individuals, to bring meaningful collective sanctions which significantly impacted on the Russian economy, and to ban goods coming out of Sevastopol and Crimea going to the world market (Gutterman, Grojec, & RFE/RL’s Current Time, 2018). It was done quickly. And it wasn’t done without cost to countries in Europe, particularly Eastern Europe, based on their dependence on Russian aid.

Here, we are talking about Israel, a country with 6% of the Russian population[28], which is heavily dependent on trade and with cultural ties to Europe and many parts of the world, including the United States. There have never been meaningful sanctions brought in to oppose Israeli policy. Even though, there are volumes of Security Council and General Assembly resolutions against the various forms of illegality that are integral to this 53-year-old occupation. As a result, there is a strong sense of impunity among the Israeli political leadership.

Today, we have come the point where almost 10% of the Israeli Jewish population are living in settlements in East Jerusalem and the West Bank, which has led to the pro-annexation lobby, a critical mass of the population (Myre, & Kaplow, 2016). When I did a nose count of the 120 Knesset members elected in the April election, I could only count 18 members of the Knesset who are opposed to the settlements and who would end them if they were in a position of power. 18 out of 120 are in that particular position. So, there is enormous domestic political support. Primarily because the ordinary Israeli doesn’t wake up and worry, “Will I get a travel visa if I wanted to travel to Europe or somewhere else?” Or, “Are goods all of the sudden more expensive?” Because there are many trade privileges that Israel enjoys. Israel has had the best of both worlds to continue with the annexation and all the while mouthing the words of a peace process and “let’s negotiate.” All the while extending the occupation because of the enormous number of settlements and settlers now in the occupied territory.

No Occupying Power engaged in creating civilian settlements, particularly at the pace that Israel has, can be serious about wanting to end its occupation and realizing the self-determination of the occupied population.

Jacobsen: How does the lack of accountability internationally degrade international institutions like the United Nations when particular principles are proposed and then not acted upon? This is to both of you.

Shakir: I think it is a universal pattern. When impunity reigns and states commit serious violations of international law without consequence, it is not only a green light for them to double down on the policies, but also signals to other actors that the principles that undergird the international system are selective and apply differently based on how much power you wield. The experience in Israel and Palestine, as well as the more universal phenomena, show that this really poses a fundamental challenge to international institutions, including U.N. bodies and international courts. A litmus test for any international institution is how principled they are and whether they are able to apply the same standards universally to all actors (Jacobsen, 2019). For example, the High Commissioner of Human Rights earlier this year took a strong step in releasing the database given the mandate to her through the Human Rights Council.[29],[30],[31] Similarly, I think the prosecutor of the International Criminal Court took an important step in concluding her examination into the situation in Palestine with a recommendation for a formal investigation to be opened. I think it is incumbent upon states and others that are concerned about the credibility of international law and institutions to ensure these a sorts of measures, of the variety that were foreseen by some of the foundational treaties when it comes to failure to comply with international norms, are adhered to. Otherwise, they are not worth the paper that they are written on.

Lynk: What I think is very damaging is the concept of legal exceptionalism, when the whole body of laws that we have created for the modern world after 1945 are ignored, our modern rules-based international order was meant to create a dense network of rights and responsibilities that international states had towards one another as one of the surest guarantees to prevent the repetition of annexing land, creating wars, and producing great human suffering.[32]

The world has not been perfect in the aftermath of 1945. However, we have had a much greater, longer run of political and economic stability thanks to this strong network of rules and responsibilities that the international community has signed onto. If a country that belongs to the rules-based order says, “These particular rules do not apply to me. The Fourth Geneva Convention does not apply to the occupied territories,” then this is cherry-picking international law; and, international law is not a menu a la carte. We have to listen to the 2004 Advisory Opinion of the International Court of Justice[33], and what the Security Council[34] has said in numerous resolutions with respect to our occupation.

What we are winding up doing – particularly in the eyes of those who pay close attention to the Israeli and Palestinian conflict – are two parallel ways in which state defiance is dealt with, when other would-be renegades of international law see that state exceptionalism is being tolerated for Israel, they will want to see if they can have the same incentives and the same legal exceptionalism applies to them as well. There are very few things that are as uncontroversial in international law as the legal fact that Israeli rule over the Palestinians is occupation and, therefore, the Fourth Geneva Convention applies. Accordingly, based on Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention, the Israeli settlements created in the occupied territory are profoundly illegal under international law.

Indeed, the Israel settlements are a presumptive war crime under the 1998 Statute of Rome (Amnesty International, 2019c; International Criminal Court, 1998).Also, annexation is illegal under international law. The vast majority – I’d say over 99% – of international lawyers, international legal scholars, and for the diplomatic ministries of almost all states around the world accept that. But the difficulty, the refusal, has been the unwillingness to hold Israel accountable to all the standard norms that apply to an occupation.

We see this in the backsliding on international legal norms applying to an occupation on the part of the United States. In early November 2019, Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo, stated that the US State Department came to the conclusion that the Israeli settlements were not illegal under international law (Lee, 2019).[35] He said, ‘We have done a 40-page study.’ To the best of my knowledge, this study has not been released publicly. I certainly think it would be a document that international lawyers and scholars would have a field day in picking apart its findings and reasoning, which may be why it is not publicly released. He made the point that in other cases, ‘Settlements in occupied territory may be illegal or the annexation of occupied territory may be illegal, but not in this case involving Israel.’ You can see how the growth of international law exceptionalism[36] becomes a malignant stain on the whole body of a rules-based international order when clear rules can be undermined by powerful parties saying that they no longer apply to them.

Jacobsen: Some of the premises floating around are the non-transparency with Mike Pompeo in the 40-page report. Another is in the language used around some of the titles of things. So, Judea and Samaria rather than Area C (Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs, 2015; BBC News, 2009). It is both the non-transparency and the part of actors for states and then the labelling things only among one’s own party and national group, where there is a well-established set of titles and terms with specific meanings based on a consensus internationally. That’s another important issue to touch upon for this too. For Human Rights Watch, what has their take been on some of this labelling unique to Israel and some allies compared to the generally accepted international community consensus?

Shakir: I think the shifts and changes in terminology are a reflection of underlying policies on place on the ground. One example to take is Israel has a formal separation policy between the West Bank and the Gaza Strip aimed at ensuring minimal travel between the two areas (Human Rights Watch, 2019a). It has resulted in significant changes. Part of it is an effort to break apart the idea of what is a single territorial entity under international law, to make Gaza its own stand-alone entity, not part of the larger equation in dealing with Israel-Palestine. Even the term “Gazans,”[37] often not with malintent, is part of the practice, it is reducing the people who live there to being tied to their specific geographic areas as opposed to having an identity common with those in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Similar with terminology when it comes to the West Bank, part of Israel’s strategy to maintain settlements in the West Bank in perpetuity is to convey the idea of this area as the core part of their idea of Israel (Human Rights Watch, 2017). The change in the terminology is part of advancing that strategy. You see this in Jerusalem with the Temple Mount[38] as a reference to Al-Aqsa Mosque compound[39], which is, again, underlying a certain narrative.[40] A valid historical one, but it is only a part of the entire story there (Hammer, 2011). I think terminology is, of course, always contested everywhere, but, certainly, is used by the Israeli government as a way to muddy-up what are relatively straightforward notions of Palestine being a single territorial entity in terms of its connections between different areas and its historical roots (United Nations, 2012a; United Nations, 2012b).

Lynk: One of my most favourite passages on political terminology comes from George Orwell who wrote in the late 1940s on the necessity of those in power of finding euphemisms and bland words that will diminish the scar or the tragedy unfolding before our eyes.[41] When you look to uncover modern terminology being used by Israel with respect to the occupation, they don’t use the word occupation; they will use the word “administered territories” or “disputed territories” (BBC News, 2009; Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs, 2015b). Settlements are no longer “settlements” in the phraseology at the Fourth Geneva Convention. They are Jewish neighbourhoods on biblical land. It is not the West Bank. It is Judea and Samaria. It is not an apartheid wall built largely in the West Bank. It is a fence. All of these choices of terminology are meant to diminish the horror of the scale of human rights abuses that are going through an occupation, where one national group is clearly dominant over another.

Where it has annexationist tendencies, and where there is no link between what they are doing and what international law requires them to wind up obeying, so, the use of this selective terminology in everyday political discourse and, certainly, in the arguments that they make legally to international diplomatic capitals or to courts such as the International Court of Justice or the International Criminal Court. It is all meant as a way to mask, to minimize, or to disguise the horror that we as civilians in democratic societies in the 21st century would normally want to feel if the true reality of what is unfolding in the occupied territories was said in immediate, urgent, and truthful adjectives and verbs.

Jacobsen: Another sociological variable, often, on the periphery of the commentaries, though central to the lives of many is religious identity and ethnic heritage. On the issue of religious identity, something that we note in Michael and I’s own country, Canada, is anti-Muslim sentiment or Islamophobia.[42],[43] On the ethnic heritage front, there is simply anti-Arab sentiment in addition to anti-Semitic sentiment as well. How do these points of contact play into the media portrayals from the occupied Palestinian territories and from Israel when there are certain flare-ups in the overall conflict?

Shakir: Look, I think there is a tendency when looking at conflicts around the world to reduce it to intrinsic ethnic, religious, or other sorts of intrinsic differences, and less of a desire to see conflicts for what they often are at core: access to land, resources, and rights, often, between different groups of people with various political leaders who often use difference to bolster their standing. I think the reality in Israel and Palestine is one such conflict. This is not some thousand-years-old ethnic and religious conflict, but one about land, resources, and rights, primarily. The other elements are certainly not irrelevant. Some policy positions can be informed by views that are bigoted or racist. We’ve certainly heard in the last rounds of Israeli elections statements by political parties that were bigoted. We have seen some anti-Semitic statements by Palestinian officials (Schrader, 2020; Nirenstein, 2020; Algemeiner Staff, 2020). But that is not what the heart of the conflict is about. There’s a significant underlying issue of discrimination and very severe discrimination and repression on account of identity, but, at the core, it is less about how the groups view one another and more about securing rights and privileges to land and resources by one group over another. While it manifests in one group having more of those things than another group, it is less about the tensions or animosities between members of those groups and more about struggles over rights, land, and resources.

Lynk: I would echo what Omar has said. For many people in the world, it reflects some of the reporting coming from the region. It has the appearance of being a religious or an ethnic conflict, or simply a neighbourhood squabble between irreconcilable people living next to one another. Often, the conflict is being presented as being intractable. In some of the reporting, it is seen as a tragedy of two people having equal rights to the land. In my view, I think this is what Omar was saying as well. Ultimately, this is a struggle over land and over justice. The ethnic veneer and the religious veneer explains some of the conflict, but the best explanation of the conflict goes to your understanding of the lack of rights and the lack of justice by one side caused by one side subjugating the other.

Yet, I am heartened when I am asked, “Is there any hope for the future?” I am heartened by the civil society efforts: Israeli civil society actors, Palestinian civil society, regional civil society, and international civil society. They want the same rights. They rely on the same international documents to proclaim the importance of human rights as a measuring stick to determine what is going on with that. I think Israeli and Palestinian civil society organizations are one of the important bridges to the future to building two societies living side-by-side, where there will be prosperity, reconciliation, equality; that they can wind up living productively with each other. It is the best hope and, in many ways, the only hope for the conflict being resolved. As Omar said earlier on, there is an equal number of Palestinian Arabs and Israeli Jews living between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River. They are going to have to find some way to live in equality, whether two states or one state as a confederation. I do not purport to have a blueprint for that. It will have to be anchored on human rights law and democratic institutions to enable them to live side-by-side or an end to this conflict to occur. Any forms of a future depending on subjugation or domination with one group over another will sooner or later fall apart simply because people will not live under subjugation or domination for long periods of time.

Jacobsen: Any closing statements – either of you?

Lynk: Only this, I don’t think Omar would be doing this work – I don’t think I would be doing his work – without feeling some ingrained optimism amid all the struggles that we wind up seeing in front of us for this particular conflict. What gets us up every morning is our belief that international law and international morality can play, should play, and, ultimately, will play a decisive role in bringing justice and peace and prosperity to the 14 million Palestinians and Israeli Jews who live in the area. Through that lens, we can see a meaningful path to get to the future. Otherwise, I think that we would slit our wrists a long time ago. Let me speak for myself, although, I think Omar may agree with this as well; it is only going to happen through actively bending the arc of history towards justice; which means a meaningful peace and finding a modus operandi where the two people can live in harmony and equality via the decisive action from the international community. All by itself, this 53-year-old occupation will not die by old age. Israel can probably sustain the status quo long into the future. Only though the international community becoming motivated by international civil society to take decisive steps that would wind up bringing this subordination and domination to an end. Until that happens, we will see more of the same and more of these bitter human rights violations occurring, which are a credit to no people and, certainly, not to the Israeli leadership and, in its own way, the Palestinian leadership either.

Jacobsen: Omar, Michael, thank you for your time.

Shakir: Thanks so much, Scott.

Lynk: Thank you, Scott.

Previous Sessions (Chronological Order)

Interview with Omar Shakir – Israel and Palestine Director, Human Rights Watch (Middle East and North Africa Division)

HRW Israel and Palestine (MENA) Director on Systematic Methodology and Universal Vision

Human Rights Watch (Israel and Palestine) on Common Rights and Law Violations

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 1 – Recent Events

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 2 – Demolitions

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 3 – November-December: Deportation from Tel Aviv, Israel for Human Rights Watch Israel and Palestine Director

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 4 – Uninhabitable: The Viability of Gaza Strip’s 2020 Unlivability

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 5 – The Trump Peace Plan: Is This the “The Deal of the Century,” or Not?

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 6 – Tripartite Partition: The Israeli Elections, the International Criminal Court (ICC), and SARS-CoV-2/COVID-19

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 7 – New Heights to the Plight and the Fight: Covid-19, Hegemony, Restrictions, and Rights

Addenda

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) Addendum: Some History and Contextualization of Rights

Other Resources Internal to Canadian Atheist

Interview with Dr. Norman Finkelstein on Gaza Now

Extensive Interview with Gideon Levy

Interview with Musa Abu Hashash – Field Researcher (Hebron District), B’Tselem

Interview with Gideon Levy – Columnist, Haaretz

Interview with Dr. Usama Antar – Independent Political Analyst (Gaza Strip, Palestine)

Interview with Wesam Ahmad – Representative, Al-Haq (Independent Palestinian Human Rights Organization)

Extensive Interview with Professor Richard Falk – Fmr. (5th) United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967

Extensive Interview with Professor John Dugard – Fmr. (4th) United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967

Extensive Interview with S. Michael Lynk – (7th) United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967

Conversation with John Dugard, Richard Falk, and S. Michael Lynk on the Role of the Special Rapporteur, and the International Criminal Court & Jurisdiction

To resolve the Palestinian question we need to end colonialism

Trump’s Colonial Solution to the Question of Palestine Threatens the Foundations of International Law

Dr. Norman Finkelstein on the International Criminal Court

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Jacobsen, S.D. (2020c, March 20). Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) Addendum: Some History and Contextualization of Rights. Retrieved from https://www.canadianatheist.com/2020/03/ask-hrw-israel-and-palestine-addendum-jacobsen/.

Jacobsen, S.D. (2020, March 26). Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 5 – The Trump Peace Plan: Is This the “The Deal of the Century,” or Not?. Retrieved from https://www.canadianatheist.com/2020/03/ask-hrw-israel-and-palestine-5-jacobsen/.

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Jacobsen, S.D. (2020a, May 6). Extensive Interview with Professor John Dugard – Fmr. (4th) United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967. Retrieved from https://www.canadianatheist.com/2020/05/dugard-jacobsen/.

Jacobsen, S.D. (2020d, August 4). Extensive Interview with S. Michael Lynk – (7th) United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967. Retrieved from https://www.canadianatheist.com/2020/08/lynk-jacobsen/.

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Footnotes

[1] “Dr. Norman Finkelstein on the International Criminal Court” (2020) in which Finkelstein stated:

On the UN question, Palestine is officially defined as a non-member observer state. That’s its status. So, it is not a member of the General Assembly, but it is classified as a state: non-member observer state. I think the only other entity that has that definition is the Vatican. The Vatican also has non-member observer state status. Whether or not Palestine is a state, the essence comes down to the following: technical, under what is called the Montevideo criteria, a state has four characteristics. It has a territory. It has a population. It has an effective government. And it has the capacity to engage in foreign relations to sign treaties and things like that. Those are the four technical criteria of a state. The issue that has been the most contentious between the two sides is the effective government. 

See Jacobsen (2020b).

[2] “Legal English: “De Facto/De Jure”” (2012) states:

Today’s phrases, “de facto” and “de jure,” (Pronunciation: dee fak-toh/di joo r-ee: Origin: Latin) are closely related concepts. De facto means a state of affairs that is true in fact, but that is not officially sanctioned. In contrast, de jure means a state of affairs that is in accordance with law (i.e. that is officially sanctioned). Most commonly, these phrases are used to describe the source of a business or governmental leader’s authority, but they apply to a wide variety of situations. Here are some example sentences that use the phrases:

  • “Our country is going through some very difficult times. We have an elected prime minister, but he has no actual power. Instead, the general who sits at the head of the military is the de facto ruler of the nation.”
  • “I know that, de jure, this is supposed to be a parking lot, but now that the flood has left four feet of water here, it’s a de facto swimming pool.”
  • “We understand that these are the de facto bounds of your manufacturing facility, but what do the official land records and surveys show? Is that mountain of scrap rubber over there encroaching on anyone else’s property?”
  • “The rest of the world considers your company to be a U.S. corporation, but where is your de jure jurisdiction of incorporation? If it’s somewhere offshore, we might have a P.R. issue on our hands.”

As you can see, de facto refers to situations that are true for practical reasons, whereas de jure refers to formal, official status of the matter.

See Washington United in St. Louis: School of Law (2012).

[3] “Chapter 3: Israeli Settlements and International Law” (2019b) states:

Israel’s policy of settling its civilians in occupied Palestinian territory and displacing the local population contravenes fundamental rules of international humanitarian law.

Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention states: “The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.” It also prohibits the “individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory”. 

The extensive appropriation of land and the appropriation and destruction of property required to build and expand settlements also breach other rules of international humanitarian law. Under the Hague Regulations of 1907, the public property of the occupied population (such as lands, forests and agricultural estates) is subject to the laws of usufruct. This means that an occupying state is only allowed a very limited use of this property. This limitation is derived from the notion that occupation is temporary, the core idea of the law of occupation. In the words of the International Committee of the Red Cross, the occupying power “has a duty to ensure the protection, security, and welfare of the people living under occupation and to guarantee that they can live as normal a life as possible, in accordance with their own laws, culture, and traditions.”

The Hague Regulations prohibit the confiscation of private property. The Fourth Geneva Convention prohibits the destruction of private or state property, “except where such destruction is rendered absolutely necessary by military operations”.

As the occupier, Israel is therefore forbidden from using state land and natural resources for purposes other than military or security needs or for the benefit of the local population. The unlawful appropriation of property by an occupying power amounts to “pillage”, which is prohibited by both the Hague Regulations and Fourth Geneva Convention and is a war crime under the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court and many national laws.

Israel’s building of settlements in the West Bank, including in East Jerusalem, does not respect any of these rules and exceptions. [Emphasis added.]

See Amnesty International (2019b).

[4] “The Status of Palestine” (1997) states:

The 1967 war, which resulted in the occupation by Israel of East Jerusalem and the Palestinian territories, ended the armistice demarcation line between the eastern and western sectors but reopened with new vehemence the debate over the two competing claims. Israel, which annexed East Jerusalem in 1980, considers that “Jerusalem, whole and united, is the capital of Israel”, and wants the City to “remain forever under Israel’s sovereignty.” Its de facto control on the ground has enabled it to invest vast resources and efforts into changing the physical and demographic characteristics of the City. The Israeli claim to Jerusalem, however, has not been recognized by the international community which rejects the acquisition of territory by war and considers any changes on the ground illegal and invalid. On the other hand, the Palestinians have claimed East Jerusalem as the capital of a future independent State of Palestine to be established in the territories occupied since 1967. [Emphasis added.]

See UNISPAL (1997).

[5] Lynk, here, references the overwhelming consensus of the international community of the status of illegality of the Israeli settlements, of Israeli occupation, of Israel defined as an Occupying Power, and annexation in the West Bank and East Jerusalem as illegal under international law. Thusly, the international community does not recognize the 1980 and 1981 annexations by Israel.

[6] U.N. Resolution 478 came with 14 votes in favour, none against, and 1 abstention (The United States of America), and states, in full:


The Security Council,

Recalling its resolution 476 (1980),

Reaffirming again that the acquisition of territory by force is inadmissible,

Deeply concerned over the enactment of a “basic law” in the Israeli Knesset proclaiming a change in the character and status of the Holy City of Jerusalem, with its implications for peace and security,

Noting that Israel has not complied with resolution 476 (1980),

Reaffirming its determination to examine practical ways and means, in accordance with the relevant provisions of the Charter of the United Nations, to secure the full implementation of its resolution 476 (1980), in the event of non-compliance by Israel,

1. Censures in the strongest terms the enactment by Israel of the “basic law” on Jerusalem and the refusal to comply with relevant Security Council resolutions;

2. Affirms that the enactment of the “basic law” by Israel constitutes a violation of international law and does not affect the continued application of the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, of 12 August 1949, in the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since June 1967, including Jerusalem;

3. Determines that all legislative and administrative measures and actions taken by Israel, the occupying Power, which have altered or purport to alter the character and status of the Holy City of Jerusalem, and in particular the recent “basic law” on Jerusalem, are null and void and must be rescinded forthwith;

4. Affirms also that this action constitutes a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East;

5. Decides not to recognize the “basic law” and such other actions by Israel that, as a result of this law, seek to alter the character and status of Jerusalem and calls upon:

(a) All Member States to accept this decision;

(b) Those States that have established diplomatic missions at Jerusalem to withdraw such missions from the Holy City;

6. Requests the Secretary-General to report to the Security Council on the implementation of the present resolution before 15 November 1980;

7. Decides to remain seized of this serious situation.

See United Nations (1980a).

[7] United Nations Resolution 476, in full, states:

The Security Council,

Having considered the letter of 28 May 1980 from the representative of Pakistan, the current Chairman of the Organization of the Islamic Conference, as contained in document S/13966 of 28 May 1980,

Reaffirming that acquisition of territory by force is inadmissible,

Bearing in mind the specific status of Jerusalem and, in particular, the need for protection and preservation of the unique spiritual and religious dimension of the Holy Places in the city,

Reaffirming its resolutions relevant to the character and status of the Holy City of Jerusalem, in particular resolutions 252 (1968) of 21 May 1968, 267 (1969) of 3 July 1969, 271 (1969) of 15 September 1969, 298 (1971) of 25 September 1971 and 465 (1980) of 1 March 1980,

Recalling the Fourth Geneva Convention of 12 August 1949 relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War,

Deploring the persistence of Israel, in changing the physical character, demographic composition, institutional structure and the status of the Holy City of Jerusalem,

Gravely concerned over the legislative steps initiated in the Israeli Knesset with the aim of changing the character and status of the Holy City of Jerusalem,

1. Reaffirms the overriding necessity to end the prolonged occupation of Arab territories occupied by Israel since 1967, including Jerusalem;

2. Strongly deplores the continued refusal of Israel, the occupying Power, to comply with the relevant resolutions of the Security Council and the General Assembly;

3. Reconfirms that all legislative and administrative measures and actions taken by Israel, the occupying Power, which purport to alter the character and status of the Holy City of Jerusalem have no legal validity and constitute a flagrant violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War and also constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East;

4. Reiterates that all such measures which have altered the geographic, demographic and historical character and status of the Holy City of Jerusalem are null and void and must be rescinded in compliance with the relevant resolutions of the Security Council;

5. Urgently calls on Israel, the occupying Power, to abide by this and previous Security Council resolutions and to desist forthwith from persisting in the policy and measures affecting the character and status of the Holy city of Jerusalem;

6.Reaffirmsits determination in the event of non-compliance by Israel with this resolution, to examine practical ways and means in accordance with relevant provisions of the Charter of the United Nations to secure the full implementation of this resolution.

See United Nations (1980b).

[8] Lynk argued for this before. “Special Rapporteur on Situation of Human Rights in the oPt Presents Report to Third Committee – Press Release (GA/SHC/4273) (Excerpts)” (2019) states:

One of five mandate holders to present their findings, Michael Lynk, Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories occupied since 1967, focused on the deepening humanitarian crisis in Gaza.  “This would properly be labelled a tragedy if I was reporting to you about a natural catastrophe and the ensuing scale of human suffering,” he said.  However, this is a human‑made disaster.  Israel’s now 12‑year blockade of Gaza is expressly prohibited under the Fourth Geneva Convention.

The will of the international community does not seem strong enough to compel Israel into compliance, he said.  “No country is as dependent on the support of the international community as Israel, yet Israel allows itself to defy the world as few dare.”  To ensure accountability, he advocated a complete ban on exports from illegal Israeli settlements, coupled with flight bans, refusing arms transfers and using universal jurisdiction to bring violators of international law to justice…

… Yet, Israel has demonstrated no accountability to address these actions, despite calls by the international community, by the 2019 Commission of Inquiry and by civil society.  Describing the 53‑year‑old occupation as the longest belligerent occupation in the modern world, he said the international community has demonstrated “great unwillingness” to impose any meaningful accountability on Israel for its permanent occupation and its serious violations of international law.

He said Israel has rightly assessed that the international community — particularly Western industrial nations — lacks the political will to compel an end to its impunity.

See UNISPAL (2019).

[9] In reference to “Europe and other powerful players in North America and other places in the Western world,” this contains a historical context important for comprehension here. The United Nations formed after the collapsed efforts of the League of Nations. With this, at the foundation of the United Nations on October 24, 1945, the Israeli-Palestinian issue set forth, which came in the wake of the Second World War, as primarily a war with involvement of the Western world and the Europeans. In fact, the issue runs back farther. See UNISPAL (n.d.).

[10] “Crimea profile” (2018) states:

In early 2014 Crimea became the focus of the worst East-West crisis since the Cold War, after Ukraine’s pro-Moscow president Viktor Yanukovych was driven from power by violent protests in Kiev.

Kremlin-backed forces seized control of the Crimean peninsula, and the territory, which has a Russian-speaking majority, voted to join Russia in a referendum that Ukraine and the West deem illegal.

See BBC News (2018).

[11] See Stone, R.S., Elath, E., Ochsenwald, W.L., & Sicherman, H. (2020).

[12] “67/19. Status of Palestine in the United Nations” states:

Reaffirming its resolution 3236 (XXIX) of 22 November 1974 and all relevant resolutions, including resolution 66/146 of 19 December 2011, reaffirming the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination, including the right to their independent State of Palestine

Reaffirming also its resolutions 43/176 of 15 December 1988 and 66/17 of 30 November 2011 and all relevant resolutions regarding the peaceful settlement of the question of Palestine, which, inter alia, stress the need for the withdrawal of Israel from the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem, the realization of the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people, primarily the right to self-determination and the right to their independent State

emphasizing the need for a way to be found through negotiations to resolve the status of Jerusalem as the capital of two States

Recalling also its resolution 43/177 of 15 December 1988, by which it, inter alia, acknowledged the proclamation of the State of Palestine by the Palestine National Council on 15 November 1988 and decided that the designation “Palestine” should be used in place of the designation “Palestine Liberation Organization” in the United Nations system, without prejudice to the observer status and functions of the Palestine Liberation Organization within the United Nations system,

Taking into consideration that the Executive Committee of the Palestine Liberation Organization, in accordance with a decision by the Palestine National Council, is entrusted with the powers and responsibilities of the Provisional Government of the State of Palestine

Reaffirming its commitment, in accordance with international law, to the two-State solution of an independent, sovereign, democratic, viable and contiguous State of Palestine living side by side with Israel in peace and security on the basis of the pre-1967 borders,

Bearing in mind the mutual recognition of 9 September 1993 between the Government of the State of Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization, the representative of the Palestinian people,

Affirming the right of all States in the region to live in peace within secure and internationally recognized borders,

Commending the Palestinian National Authority’s 2009 plan for constructing the institutions of an independent Palestinian State

…Recognizing also that, to date, 132 States Members of the United Nations have accorded recognition to the State of Palestine

…1. Reaffirms the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination and to independence in their State of Palestine on the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967;

2. Decides to accord to Palestine non-member observer State status in the United Nations, without prejudice to the acquired rights, privileges and role of the Palestine Liberation Organization in the United Nations as the representative of the Palestinian people, in accordance with the relevant resolutions and practice;

3. Expresses the hope that the Security Council will consider favourably the application submitted on 23 September 2011 by the State of Palestine for admission to full membership in the United Nations… [Emphasis added.]

See United Nations (2012).

[13] “Unable to vote, Palestinians shrug off Israel’s elections” (2019), in part, states:

MAS’HA, West Bank (AP) — Barhoum Saleh’s town is surrounded by Jewish settlements, the sign above his roadside mechanic shop is in Hebrew, most of his customers are Israeli and he needs an Israeli permit to visit the beach a half hour’s drive away.

But unlike his Jewish neighbors, he can’t vote in next week’s elections.

Saleh is among the 2.5 million Palestinians in the West Bank who have no voice in choosing Israel’s next government and no control over whether it decides to annex part or all of the occupied territory, as Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has vowed to do . With the peace process having sputtered to a halt a decade ago, they also have little hope of getting a state of their own anytime soon. [Emphasis added.]

See Krauss & Daraghmeh (2019).

[14] One of the, or the, fundamental violation of international law comes in the form of Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention. The Fourth Geneva Convention deals specifically with the protection of civilians in war zones as a humanitarian matter. You can observe some of the common phraseology defined within the context of the occupation in the Fourth Geneva Convention, which gets used throughout the discourse, e.g., “Occupying Power,” where the means “Israel” in the context of Israeli annexation and settlements. Article 49 states:

Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive.

Nevertheless, the Occupying Power may undertake total or partial evacuation of a given area if the security of the population or imperative military reasons so demand. Such evacuations may not involve the displacement of protected persons outside the bounds of the occupied territory except when for material reasons it is impossible to avoid such displacement. Persons thus evacuated shall be transferred back to their homes as soon as hostilities in the area in question have ceased.

The Occupying Power undertaking such transfers or evacuations shall ensure, to the greatest practicable extent, that proper accommodation is provided to receive the protected persons, that the removals are effected in satisfactory conditions of hygiene, health, safety and nutrition, and that members of the same family are not separated.

The Protecting Power shall be informed of any transfers and evacuations as soon as they have taken place.

The Occupying Power shall not detain protected persons in an area particularly exposed to the dangers of war unless the security of the population or imperative military reasons so demand.

The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.

See International Committee of the Red Cross (1949).

[15] See United Nations Security Council (2016).

[16] “Resolution 2334” states:

… Condemning all measures aimed at altering the demographic composition, character and status of the Palestinian Territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem, including, inter alia, the construction and expansion of settlements, transfer of Israeli settlers, confiscation of land, demolition of homes and displacement of Palestinian civilians, in violation of international humanitarian law and relevant resolutions…

…Reaffirms that the establishment by Israel of settlements in the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem, has no legal validity and constitutes a flagrant violation under international law and a major obstacle to the achievement of the two-State solution and a just, lasting and comprehensive peace…

See United Nations Security Council (2016).

[17] “Resolution 465” states:

Taking note of the reports of the Commission of the Security Council established under resolution 446 (1979) to examine the situation relating to settlements in the Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem, contained in documents S/13450 and Corr. 1 and S/13679…

Deploring the decision of the Government of Israel to officially support Israeli settlement in the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since 1967,

Deeply concerned over the practices of the Israeli authorities in implementing that settlement policy in the occupied Arab territories, including Jerusalem, and its consequences for the local Arab and Palestinian population…

…Drawing attention to the grave consequences which the settlement policy is bound to have on any attempt to reach a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East…

… 6. Strongly deplores the continuation and persistence of Israel in pursuing those policies and practices and calls upon the Government and people of Israel to rescind those measures, to dismantle the existing settlements and in particular to cease, on an urgent basis, the establishment, construction and planning of settlements in the Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem;

7. Calls upon all States not to provide Israel with any assistance to be used specifically in connexion with settlements in the occupied territories;

8. Requests the Commission to continue to examine the situation relating to settlements in the Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem, to investigate the reported serious depletion of natural resources, particularly the water resources, with a view to ensuring the protection of those important natural resources of the territories under occupation, and to keep under close scrutiny the implementation of the present resolution…

See United Nations Security Council (1980).

[18] “Resolution 446” states:

Determines that the policy and practices of Israel in establishing settlements in the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since 1967 have no legal validity and constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East…

…Establishes a Commission consisting of three members of the Security Council, to be appointed by the President of the Council after consultations with the members of the Council, to examine the situation relating to settlements in the Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem…

See United Nations Security Council (1979).

[19] See International Middle East Media Center (2019).

[20] See Al-Haq (2015).

[21] “Gaza Strip: Blockade” (2020) states:

In autumn 2007 Israel declared the Gaza Strip under Hamas a hostile entity and approved a series of sanctions that included power cuts, heavily restricted imports, and border closures. In January 2008, facing sustained rocket assaults into its southern settlements, Israel broadened its sanctions, completely sealing its border with the Gaza Strip and temporarily preventing fuel imports. Later that month, after nearly a week of the intensified Israeli blockade, Hamas’s forces demolished portions of the barrier along the Gaza Strip–Egypt border (closed from Hamas’s mid-2007 takeover until 2011), opening gaps through which, according to some estimates, hundreds of thousands of Gazans passed into Egypt to purchase food, fuel, and goods unavailable under the blockade. Egyptian Pres. Hosni Mubarak temporarily permitted the breach to alleviate civilian hardship in Gaza before efforts could begin to restore the border.

In the years after the Israeli blockade on Gaza was instated, an organization known as the Free Gaza Movement made a number of maritime efforts to breach it. The first such mission—which consisted of a pair of vessels bearing medical supplies and some 45 activists—was permitted to reach Gaza in August 2008, and four missions in subsequent months were also successful. In May 2010 a flotilla bound for Gaza was the scene of a clash between activists and Israeli commandos in which 9 of the more than 600 activists involved were killed.

Under Mubarak, Egypt’s cooperation in enforcing the blockade was deeply unpopular with the Egyptian public. In May 2011, four months after a popular uprising in Egypt forced Mubarak to step down as president, Egypt’s interim government announced that it would permanently reopen the Rafah border crossing, allowing Palestinians to pass between Egypt and Gaza. About 1,200 people were allowed to cross the border daily, though it remained closed for trade. However, in the turmoil following the ouster of Egyptian Pres. Mohamed Morsi in the summer of 2013, traffic through the border crossing was reduced to 50 people per day because of security concerns and was later closed altogether.

After the PA took control of the Rafah border crossing in late 2017, Egypt began allowing 200 people per day to cross the border in May 2018. The border was closed briefly after the PA quit the Gaza Strip in January 2019, but it was reopened weeks later by Hamas. During this rare and prolonged easing of the border, tens of thousands of Gazans were reported to have permanently emigrated from the Gaza Strip.

After months of violence between Israel and Hamas in mid-2018, Israel began to ease restrictions on its blockade as a part of an effort to incentivize a more long-term cease-fire agreement between the two. In 2019 Israel allowed the flow of additional goods into and out of the territory, expanded the permitted fishing zone for Gazans to its largest extent in more than a decade, and began allowing thousands of Gazans to cross the border to work in Israel.

See The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica (2020).

[22] See Federman (2019).

[23] See UNISPAL (2006).

[24] “Situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories occupied since 1967” (2019) states:

…The key issues raised during the mission included the continued shrinking of civic space, the pervasive lack of accountability, especially in relation to the investigation and prosecution of hostilities in Gaza in 2014, home demolitions in the West Bank, in particular in East Jerusalem, the ongoing use of administrative detention and the detention of children, and the impact of various practices on the environment…

…Israel has demonstrated virtually no accountability for these actions despite calls by the international community and civil society for independent and transparent investigations into the incidents…

…Far too often, accountability has been applied by the international community in a selective and partisan fashion to many serious issues, reflecting a dispiriting mixture of design and indifference, collusion and apathy. On too many occasions, defiance has been ignored and outliers have been excused or appeased. This deficit of accountability erodes popular trust in the efficacy of international law, thereby jeopardizing a precious common good…

…The 52-year Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territory – Gaza and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem – is a bitter illustration of the absence of international accountability in the face of the systemic violations of Palestinian rights under human rights and humanitarian law. Accountability is the key to opening the titanium cage that is the permanent occupation, and its principled application is the best path to a just and durable settlement…

…The Court then elaborated upon the duty of accountability of the international community when a competent organ of the United Nations had issued a binding decision on the illegality of a situation…

…In a variety of forums, the United Nations has frequently called upon the international community to ensure accountability and to end impunity with respect to the Israeli occupation…

…In four major independent reports commissioned by the Human Rights Council since 2009, the constant theme has been the serious violations of human rights and humanitarian laws by Israel, the necessity to ensure Israeli accountability and the prevailing culture of exceptionalism…

…The General Assembly and the Human Rights Council have both accentuated the necessity for accountability by Israel, the occupying Power, in recent years…

…Impunity and the lack of accountability by Israel in its conduct of the occupation have also been addressed by the Secretary-General…

…The lack of accountability has also been a central concern of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights…

…Of the 178 recommendations issued regarding accountability and access to justice, Israel had implemented 2, had partially implemented 8 and had not implemented 168 (90 per cent)…

…Much more can be said about the range of appropriate countermeasures that the international community has at its disposal to ensure accountability and an end to impunity regarding the Israeli occupation…

…It would realize that bold measures and the determination to enforce accountability in these circumstances would greatly improve the chances that the next obstinate occupier would not likely want to test its resolve…

See United Nations General Assembly (2019).

[25] See BBC News (2016).

[26] See Gragg & Volochine (2019).

[27] A single negative vote from one of the permanent members – China, France, Russia, the United Kingdom and the United States – of the Security Council would block a draft resolution. “Charter of the United Nations – Chapter V: The Security Council” states:

  1. Each member of the Security Council shall have one vote.
  2. Decisions of the Security Council on procedural matters shall be made by an affirmative vote of nine members.
  3. Decisions of the Security Council on all other matters shall be made by an affirmative vote of nine members including the concurring votes of the permanent members; provided that, in decisions under Chapter VI, and under paragraph 3 of Article 52, a party to a dispute shall abstain from voting.

See United Nations (1945).

[28] Approximately 9,000,000 Israelis divided by about 145,000,000 Russians comes to about 6%.

[29] The illegal settlements database provided an insight into the contexts for a number of the illegal settlement-dealing businesses. This comes from another portion of the international effort for a transition from statements or reminders of rights and abuses of said rights, and more into the firm transition into the world of accountability tied to action, so as to make the statements of rights and abuses of said rights substantive rather than null and void. This became part of a previous session with Shakir, in which we stated:

Jacobsen: The U.N. also recently released a list of companies, 112 [Ed. Countries with companies on the listing (number of companies in parentheses per country): France (3), Israel (94), Luxembourg (1), Netherlands (4), Thailand (1), United Kingdom (3), United States of America (6) (U.N. Human Rights Council, 2020).], who are doing business on Israeli settlements in the West Bank (Nebehay, 2020; Federman, 2020; Federman & Keaten, 2020). What does this mean for this similar discourse of rights violations through the annexation of land? What are the particular types of rights violations in this reportage?

Shakir: The long-awaited release of the U.N. Database of Settlement Companies should really put companies on notice: to do business with illegal settlements is to aid in the commission of war crimes (U.N. Human Rights Council, 2020). Companies have hid for too long behind the idea of these issues as too controversial or complex as a way to excuse their direct contribution to rights abuses. The underlying reality is that settlements are not only a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention and a war crime (Diplomatic Conference of Geneva, 1949; Amnesty International, 2019b). They also entail systematic abuses to the rights of Palestinians. Settlements are built on land confiscated, stolen, from Palestinians (Amnesty International, 2019b). In order to maintain the settlement enterprise, Israel has erected a two-tiered discriminatory system in the West Bank that treats Palestinians separately and unequally (Human Rights Watch, 2010). Companies that do business in settlements not only further entrench the illegal settlement enterprise, but they actually profit from the theft of Palestinian land and contribute to the further dispossession of Palestinians.  I think the release of this database is an important step towards ensuring transparency around these activities, but also towards protecting human rights, not only of Palestinians, but setting a precedent that can be used in other contexts to improve the standards around business and human rights.

See Jacobsen (2020e).

[30] See Federman (2020c), Federman & Keaten (2020), and Nebehay (2020).

[31] You can find the complete 112 out of the 188 companies who formally met the requirements for inclusion as follows:

Business enterprises involved in listed activities
No.Business EnterpriseCategory of listed activityState concerned
1Afikim Public Transportation Ltd.EIsrael
2Airbnb Inc.EUnited States
3American Israeli Gas Corporation Ltd.E, GIsrael
4Amir Marketing and Investments in Agriculture Ltd.GIsrael
5Amos Hadar Properties and Investments Ltd.GIsrael
6Angel BakeriesE, GIsrael
7Archivists Ltd.GIsrael
8Ariel Properties GroupEIsrael
9Ashtrom Industries Ltd.GIsrael
10Ashtrom Properties Ltd.GIsrael
11Avgol Industries 1953 Ltd.GIsrael
12Bank Hapoalim B.M.E, FIsrael
13Bank Leumi Le-Israel B.M.E, FIsrael
14Bank of Jerusalem Ltd.E, FIsrael
15Beit Haarchiv Ltd.GIsrael
16Bezeq, the Israel Telecommunication Corp Ltd.E, GIsrael
17Booking.com B.V.ENetherlands
18C Mer Industries Ltd.BIsrael
19Café Café Israel Ltd.E, GIsrael
20Caliber 3D, GIsrael
21Cellcom Israel Ltd.E, GIsrael
22Cherriessa Ltd.GIsrael
23Chish Nofei Israel Ltd.GIsrael
24Citadis Israel Ltd.E, GIsrael
25Comasco Ltd.AIsrael
26Darban Investments Ltd.GIsrael
27Delek Group Ltd.E, GIsrael
28Delta IsraelGIsrael
29Dor Alon Energy in Israel 1988 Ltd.E, GIsrael
30Egis RailEFrance
31Egged, Israel Transportation Cooperative Society Ltd.EIsrael
32Energix Renewable Energies Ltd.GIsrael
33EPR Systems Ltd.E, GIsrael
34Extal Ltd.GIsrael
35Expedia Group Inc.EUnited States
36Field Produce Ltd.GIsrael
37Field Produce Marketing Ltd.GIsrael
38First International Bank of Israel Ltd.E, F  Israel
39Galshan Shvakim Ltd.E, DIsrael
40General Mills Israel Ltd.GIsrael
41Hadiklaim Israel Date Growers Cooperative Ltd.GIsrael
42Hot Mobile Ltd.EIsrael
43Hot Telecommunications Systems Ltd.EIsrael
44Industrial Buildings Corporation Ltd.GIsrael
45Israel Discount Bank Ltd.E, FIsrael
46Israel Railways Corporation Ltd.G, HIsrael
47Italek Ltd.E, GIsrael
48JC Bamford Excavators Ltd.AUnited Kingdom
49Jerusalem Economy Ltd.GIsrael
50Kavim Public Transportation Ltd.EIsrael
51Lipski Installation and Sanitation Ltd.GIsrael
52Matrix IT Ltd.E, GIsrael
53Mayer Davidov Garages Ltd.E, GIsrael
54Mekorot Water Company Ltd.GIsrael
55Mercantile Discount Bank Ltd.E, FIsrael
56Merkavim Transportation Technologies Ltd.EIsrael
57Mizrahi Tefahot Bank Ltd.E, FIsrael
58Modi’in Ezrachi Group Ltd.  E, DIsrael
59Mordechai Aviv Taasiot Beniyah 1973 Ltd.GIsrael
60Motorola Solutions Israel Ltd.BIsrael
61Municipal Bank Ltd.FIsrael
62Naaman Group Ltd.E, GIsrael
63Nof Yam Security Ltd.E, D  Israel
64Ofertex Industries 1997 Ltd.GIsrael
65Opodo Ltd.EUnited Kingdom
66Bank Otsar Ha-Hayal Ltd.       E, FIsrael
67Partner Communications Company Ltd.E, GIsrael
68Paz Oil Company Ltd.E, GIsrael
69Pelegas Ltd.GIsrael
70Pelephone Communications Ltd.E, GIsrael
71Proffimat S.R. Ltd.GIsrael
72Rami Levy Chain Stores Hashikma Marketing 2006 Ltd.E, GIsrael
73Rami Levy Hashikma Marketing Communication Ltd.E, GIsrael
74Re/Max IsraelEIsrael
75Shalgal Food Ltd.GIsrael
76Shapir Engineering and Industry Ltd.E, GIsrael
77Shufersal Ltd.E, GIsrael
78Sonol Israel Ltd.E, GIsrael
79Superbus Ltd.EIsrael
80Supergum Industries 1969 Ltd.GIsrael
81Tahal Group International B.V.ENetherlands
82TripAdvisor Inc.EUnited States
83Twitoplast Ltd.GIsrael
84Unikowsky Maoz Ltd.GIsrael
85YESEIsrael
86Zakai Agricultural Know-how and inputs Ltd.GIsrael
87ZF Development and ConstructionGIsrael
88ZMH Hammermand Ltd.GIsrael
89Zorganika Ltd.GIsrael
90Zriha Hlavin Industries Ltd.GIsrael
Business enterprises involved as parent companies
No.Business EnterpriseCategory of listed activityState concerned
91Alon Blue Square Israel Ltd.E, GIsrael
92Alstom S.A.E, GFrance
93Altice Europe N.V.ENetherlands
94Amnon Mesilot Ltd.EIsrael
95Ashtrom Group Ltd.GIsrael
96Booking Holdings Inc.EUnited States
97Brand Industries Ltd.GIsrael
98Delta Galil Industries Ltd.GIsrael
99eDreams ODIGEO S.A.ELuxembourg
100Egis S.A.EFrance
101Electra Ltd.EIsrael
102Export Investment Company Ltd.E, FIsrael
103General Mills Inc.GUnited States
104Hadar GroupGIsrael
105Hamat Group Ltd.GIsrael
106Indorama Ventures P.C.L.GThailand
107Kardan N.V.ENetherlands
108Mayer’s Cars and Trucks Co. Ltd.EIsrael
109Motorola Solutions Inc.BUnited States
110Natoon GroupE, DIsrael
111Villar International Ltd.GIsrael
Business enterprises involved as licensors or franchisors
No.Business EnterpriseCategory of listed activityState concerned
112Greenkote P.L.C.GUnited Kingdom

See U.N. Human Rights Council (2020).

[32] “International law: Jurisdiction” (2019) states:

Jurisdiction refers to the power of a state to affect persons, property, and circumstances within its territory. It may be exercised through legislative, executive, or judicial actions. International law particularly addresses questions of criminal law and essentially leaves civil jurisdiction to national control. According to the territorial principle, states have exclusive authority to deal with criminal issues arising within their territories; this principle has been modified to permit officials from one state to act within another state in certain circumstances (e.g., the Channel Tunnel arrangements between the United Kingdom and France and the 1994 peace treaty between Israel and Jordan). The nationality principle permits a country to exercise criminal jurisdiction over any of its nationals accused of criminal offenses in another state. Historically, this principle has been associated more closely with civil-law systems than with common-law ones, though its use in common-law systems increased in the late 20th century (e.g., the adoption in Britain of the War Crimes Act in 1991 and the Sex Offenders Act in 1997). Ships and aircraft have the nationality of the state whose flag they fly or in which they are registered and are subject to its jurisdiction.

The passive personality principle allows states, in limited cases, to claim jurisdiction to try a foreign national for offenses committed abroad that affect its own citizens. This principle has been used by the United States to prosecute terrorists and even to arrest (in 1989–90) the de facto leader of Panama, Manuel Noriega, who was subsequently convicted by an American court of cocaine trafficking, racketeering, and money laundering. The principle appears in a number of conventions, including the International Convention Against the Taking of Hostages (1979), the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Crimes Against Internationally Protected Persons (1973), and the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (1984). The protective principle, which is included in the hostages and aircraft-hijacking conventions and the Convention on the Safety of United Nations and Associated Personnel (1994), can be invoked by a state in cases where an alien has committed an act abroad deemed prejudicial to that state’s interests, as distinct from harming the interests of nationals (the passive personality principle). Finally, the universality principle allows for the assertion of jurisdiction in cases where the alleged crime may be prosecuted by all states (e.g., war crimes, crimes against the peace, crimes against humanity, slavery, and piracy).

See Shaw (2019).

[33] “International Court of Justice Advisory Opinion Finds Israel’s Construction of Wall ‘Contrary to International Law’” (2004) states:

The International Court of Justice (ICJ), principal judicial organ of the United Nations, has today rendered its Advisory Opinion in the case concerning the Legal Consequences of the Construction of a Wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory (request for advisory opinion).

In its Opinion, the Court finds unanimously that it has jurisdiction to give the advisory opinion requested by the United Nations General Assembly and decides by 14 votes to 1 to comply with that request.

The Court responds to the question as follows:

“A. By 14 votes to 1,

The construction of the wall being built by Israel, the occupying Power, in the occupied Palestinian territory, including in and around East Jerusalem, and its associated regime, are contrary to international law”;

“B. By 14 votes to 1,

Israel is under an obligation to terminate its breaches of international law; it is under an obligation to cease forthwith the works of construction of the wall being built in the occupied Palestinian territory, including in and around East Jerusalem, to dismantle forthwith the structure therein situated, and to repeal or render ineffective forthwith all legislative and regulatory acts relating thereto, in accordance with paragraph 151 of this Opinion”;

“C. By 14 votes to 1,

Israel is under an obligation to make reparation for all damage caused by the construction of the wall in the occupied Palestinian territory, including in and around East Jerusalem”;

“D. By 13 votes to 2,

All States are under an obligation not to recognize the illegal situation resulting from the construction of the wall and not to render aid or assistance in maintaining the situation created by such construction; all States parties to the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War of 12 August 1949 have in addition the obligation, while respecting the United Nations Charter and international law, to ensure compliance by Israel with international humanitarian law as embodied in that Convention”;

“E. By 14 votes to 1,

The United Nations, and especially the General Assembly and the Security Council, should consider what further action is required to bring to an end the illegal situation resulting from the construction of the wall and the associated regime, taking due account of the present Advisory Opinion.”

See International Court of Justice (2004).

[34] See United Nations Security Council (2016), United Nations Security Council (1979), and United Nations Security Council (1980).

[35] “U.S. backs Israel on settlements, angering Palestinians and clouding peace process” (2019) states:

Pompeo said U.S. statements about the settlements on the West Bank, which Israel captured in 1967, had been inconsistent, saying Democratic President Jimmy Carter found they were not consistent with international law and Republican President Ronald Reagan said he did not view them as inherently illegal.

“The establishment of Israeli civilian settlements is not, per se, inconsistent with international law,” Pompeo told reporters at the State Department, reversing a formal legal position taken by the United States under Carter in 1978.

His announcement drew praise from Netanyahu, who said it “rights a historical wrong,” and condemnation from Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat, who said Washington was threatening “to replace international law with the ‘law of the jungle.’”

Palestinians argued the U.S. stance flouted international law. The international community views the transfer of any country’s civilians to occupied land as illegal under the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949 and U.N. Security Council resolutions.

“The United States is neither qualified nor is authorized to negate international legitimacy resolutions and it has no right to give any legitimacy to Israeli settlement,” said Nabil Abu Rudeineh, a spokesman for Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas.

The United States said its stance could prompt violence, warning Americans in the region to exercise greater vigilance because those opposing the move “may target” U.S. government facilities, private interests and citizens.

Jordan’s foreign minister, Ayman Safadi, said the policy change would have “dangerous consequences” for the prospects of reviving peace talks and called settlements “a blatant violation of international law.”

See Mohammed, Spetalnick, & Pamuk (2019).

[36] As noted by Lynk, one of the prime issues comes in the opposition to the universalism or universal application of international law to all member states of the United Nations without exception – hence, exceptionalism as a concern and universalism as a necessary ideal – to the actions of any Member State, wherein one exception creates the basis for other borderline ill-actors within the international community asking, “Why not me?” Universalism must be universal without exception to be “worth the paper that they are written on.”

[37] If you search this term in any of the search engines available, then you will find such use of the term as a common occurrence.

[38] For one example, see Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs (2015a).

[39] For an opposing example, see United Nations Security Council (1982).

[40] Now, these discrepancies can raise questions about historicity of the titular claims or the reality of the claims to appropriation of a site based on particular historical narratives. BBC News in “Unesco passes contentious Jerusalem resolution” reported in 2016 on this issue:

Unesco’s executive board approved the Arab-sponsored resolution, which repeatedly refers to only the Islamic name for a hilltop complex which is also the holiest site in Judaism.

The site is known to Jews as the Temple Mount and Haram al-Sharif to Muslims.

The resolution caused Israel to freeze co-operation with Unesco last week.

The stated aim of the text was “the safeguarding of the cultural heritage of Palestine and the distinctive character of East Jerusalem”.

It criticises Israel’s activities at holy places in Jerusalem and the occupied West Bank.

But it is how it refers to the sites which prompted Israel to act against the cultural body.

While acknowledging the “importance of the Old City of Jerusalem and its walls for the three monotheistic religions”, the document refers to the sacred hilltop only by the name “al-Aqsa Mosque/al-Haram al-Sharif” (Noble Sanctuary).

It is the location of two Biblical Jewish temples and is flanked by the Western Wall, venerated by Jews as part of the original supporting wall of the temple compound.

Haram al-Sharif is also the place where Muslims believe the Prophet Muhammad ascended to Heaven, and is the third holiest site in Islam.

The draft refers to the precinct in front of the wall as “al-Buraq Plaza ‘Western Wall Plaza'” – placing single quote marks only around “Western Wall”, giving the name as it is known to Jews less weight than the one by which it is known to Muslims.

Unesco’s executive board chairman Michael Worbs said on Friday he would have liked more time to work out a compromise.

He told Israeli television network Channel 10: “It’s very exceptional what happened yesterday, and I’m sorry for that.”

On Tuesday, Israel’s Unesco ambassador, Carmel Shama Hacohen, accused the Palestinians of playing “games”.

“This is the wrong place to solve problems between countries or people,” he told AFP.

But Palestine’s deputy ambassador to Unesco, Mounir Anastas, welcomed the adoption of the resolution, saying he hoped it would put pressure on the Israeli authorities to “stop all their violations”, particularly the excavation of sites in and around the Old City.

See BBC News (2016).

[41] Not sure if this is the correct quote, however, George Orwell, in Politics and the English Language (1946), states:

In our time, political speech and writing are largely the defence of the indefensible. Things like the continuance of British rule in India, the Russian purges and deportations, the dropping of the atom bombs on Japan, can indeed be defended, but only by arguments which are too brutal for most people to face, and which do not square with the professed aims of the political parties. Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness. Defenceless villages are bombarded from the air, the inhabitants driven out into the countryside, the cattle machine-gunned, the huts set on fire with incendiary bullets: this is called pacification. Millions of peasants are robbed of their farms and sent trudging along the roads with no more than they can carry: this is called transfer of population or rectification of frontiers. People are imprisoned for years without trial, or shot in the back of the neck or sent to die of scurvy in Arctic lumber camps: this is called elimination of unreliable elements. Such phraseology is needed if one wants to name things without calling up mental pictures of them. Consider for instance some comfortable English professor defending Russian totalitarianism. He cannot say outright, ‘I believe in killing off your opponents when you can get good results by doing so’. Probably, therefore, he will say something like this:

‘While freely conceding that the Soviet regime exhibits certain features which the humanitarian may be inclined to deplore, we must, I think, agree that a certain curtailment of the right to political opposition is an unavoidable concomitant of transitional periods, and that the rigors which the Russian people have been called upon to undergo have been amply justified in the sphere of concrete achievement.’

The inflated style itself is a kind of euphemism. A mass of Latin words falls upon the facts like soft snow, blurring the outline and covering up all the details. The great enemy of clear language is insincerity. When there is a gap between one’s real and one’s declared aims, one turns as it were instinctively to long words and exhausted idioms, like a cuttlefish spurting out ink. In our age there is no such thing as ‘keeping out of politics’. All issues are political issues, and politics itself is a mass of lies, evasions, folly, hatred, and schizophrenia. When the general atmosphere is bad, language must suffer. I should expect to find — this is a guess which I have not sufficient knowledge to verify — that the German, Russian and Italian languages have all deteriorated in the last ten or fifteen years, as a result of dictatorship. [Emphasis added.]

See Orwell (1946).

[42] Statistics Canada reported 429 hate crimes based on religion in 2014, 469 hate crimes based on religion in 2015, 460 hate crimes based on religion in 2016, 842 hate crimes based on religion in 2017, 639 hate crimes based on religion in 2018. This averages 567.8 hate crimes per annum over a five year period based on the years of 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, and 2018. See StatsCan (2018).

[43] See Ferreras (2018), where one can see coverage of anti-Muslim and anti-Jewish hate crimes, defined as such, in about equal measure in the number of the respective raw occurrences. Although, more Muslims, by a large comparative amount, live in Canada than Jewish peoples. Thus, per capita, Jewish peoples, at a minimum, report more if not experience more. In this context, anti-Jewish means anti-Semitic, and vice versa.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Dr. Norman Finkelstein on the International Criminal Court

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/08/13

Dr. Norman Finkelstein remains one of the foremost experts and independent scholars on the Israeli occupation and the crimes against the Palestinians. His most recent book is I Accuse!: Herewith a Proof beyond Reasonable Doubt That ICC Chief Prosecutor Fatou Bensouda Whitewashed Israel (2020). Professor Emeritus John Dugard at Leiden University, former Special Rapporteur to the UN Human Rights Council on Human Rights in the Occupied Palestinian Territory and member of the International Law Commission, gave an endorsement, to the previous text Gaza: An Inquest into Its Martyrdom, “Norman Finkelstein, probably the most serious scholar on the conflict in the Middle East, has written an excellent book on Israel’s invasions of Gaza. Its comprehensive examination of both the facts and the law of these assaults provides the most authoritative account of this brutal history.”

Here we talk about the International Criminal Court.

*Interview conducted on July 27, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, we’ve done some interviews before. I have done some interviews with some others with some recommendations from you, or others who are journalists or dealing directly with the human rights violations regarding Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories. You have published another book. It is entitled I Accuse!. So, it is focused around the ICC Chief Prosecutor Fatou Bensouda. For those who are not aware of the developments happening at the International Criminal Court, what are some of the pieces of the image that can help sketch things out with regards to the development of the case on rights violations, rights abuse, in regards to Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories, or the Israelis and the Palestinians?

Dr. Norman Finkelstein: Well, the first point to make is it is a little bit confusing. So, I have to go slowly. Also, I have to clarify. At the outset, there are not one but two cases before the International Criminal Court pertaining to the Palestinians. The first case was referred to the court by the Union of the Comoros. The Union of the Comoros is a small country. It happened to be the country to which the Mavi Marmara, which was the flagship of the flotilla that went to Gaza in May, 2010, and came under Israeli assault. By the end, 9 passengers had been killed. A 10th died later, he was in a coma and died from his wounds. That case, as I said, was referred to the court by the Union of the Comoros. There are a lot of technicalities about the court, which, unfortunately, I have to go through in order to clarify the status of the cases. The first technicality is the International Criminal Court is not a universal court or does not possess universal jurisdiction. In order to bring a case before the court, you have to be a state. Effectively, what a state does, it says, “We will join the court or we’re requesting that the court take over criminal jurisdiction for this or that situation.” So, the Union of the Comoros is a state party to the ICC, the International Criminal Court. So, it had the option, which it exercised, to refer the case of the Mavi Marmara to the ICC.

The case sat in the ICC for quite a long time. Fatou Bensouda, the Chief Prosecutor, was trying to drag out the case. In the end, let me just clarify, there are several stages to any case that comes before the court referral. There are several stages to each situation that comes before the court. The first step is called the preliminary examination. In the preliminary examination, the Chief Prosecutor decides whether there is enough evidence to support an investigation. And then, after an investigation, there is, again, another stage. Is there sufficient evidence for an indictment? Then after the indictment, there is the actual prosecution, and the decision, whether or not the party or parties are guilty of the crimes. So, we’re talking about a very early stage, which is called the preliminary investigation. Fatou Bensouda decided that the case or the referral was, to a technical term of the court, of ‘insufficient gravity’ [Ed. “…the situation would not be of sufficient gravity to justify further action…”] to warrant stage two, an investigation. To now go through, quickly, because I think the basics are now clear for your listeners [Ed. readers], there was a lot of pushback in the court because it was clear the Chief Prosecutor was engaging in a whitewash and cover up. She, basically, simply appropriated all of the arguments and all of the effectively fake evidence that Israel presented in order to justify her refusal to move on to stage two, an investigation.

As I said, there was a lot of pushback in the court. A lot of people inside the court were not happy with the way Bensouda was conducting the case. There was sufficient pushback that she had to reconsider her decision. She alleged that she reconsidered it, but came to the same conclusion. For a second time, she declared the case closed. Then there was pushback again. The case, she was forced to reconsider. The third time, she declared it closed. Now, it is in a new stage of appeal by the lawyers for the victims in the case. So, that case, she’s attempted three times to kill it. She closed the case three times. However, now, it’s under appeal again. Simultaneously, with that case, the state of Palestine has referred a separate/distinct case to the court. Basically, its essence is the Israeli settlements in the West Bank, which are illegal under international law and a war crime under the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court and the murderous Israeli assault on Gaza in 2014 Operation Protective Edge. Now, what happened there is, to make a long story short, Bensouda switched sides.

Where before, she carried out a whitewash and a cover up for Israel. In this new situation, as it is called, she has fiercely championed the Palestinian side. Now, it is coming under attack from the U.S. and Israel. Where we currently stand is, there are two technical issues in the case currently referred to by the state of Palestine. Each of the technical issues will be very clear to your listeners. So, it doesn’t require extensive elaboration. Issue number one, I said it earlier to you. In order to present the case to the court, you have to be a state. Basically, you’re delegating to the state. Your sovereign right to prosecute war crimes. You’re saying, “We’d rather you prosecute this case.” So, the issue arose, “Is Palestine a state?” If it is not a state, it doesn’t have the right to refer any situation to the court. So, question number one, “Is Palestine a state?” Question number two, if a court is going to prosecute, it has to know, “What is the territorial extent of the court?” So, you have to know. If a state refers a case, let’s say Canada refers a case to the ICC, Canada is a Member State.

Let’s say, for arguments sake, the United States launched an unprovoked attack on Canada. So, they attacked Canadian territory. Canada refers the case to the ICC. So, the first thing the ICC has to decide is, “Was the attack on Canadian soil?” Because Canada can only refer cases that occur in its state. So, the court has to know whether or not the attack occurred on Canadian soil or something under Canadian jurisdiction, e.g., a Canadian vessel or a Canadian plane. So, the second issue before the court is, “Even assuming Palestine is a state, what is the territory of that state?” Because, as you know, Israel insists the West Bank including East Jerusalem and Gaza are disputed territories. That there is no Palestinian territory. So, where that second referral now stands is, it has to be determined a) whether Palestine is a state; and b), if it is a state, what are the territorial demarcations of the state?

Jacobsen: With regards to the definition of a state within the United Nations, and as it is being presented to the court, and for the readers today, the terminology for a state within the United Nations is a “Member State,” as many are aware, for perfect clarity. With regards to the definition of occupied Palestinian territory or the state of Palestine, how is this proceeding in regards to the evidence being presented on a) status as a state and b) the territorial demarcations of said state, if defined as such?

Finkelstein: Okay, I’ll give you the principal arguments on both sides. On the UN question, Palestine is officially defined as a non-member observer state. That’s its status. So, it is not a member of the General Assembly, but it is classified as a state: non-member observer state. I think the only other entity that has that definition is the Vatican. The Vatican also has non-member observer state status. Whether or not Palestine is a state, the essence comes down to the following: technical, under what is called the Montevideo criteria, a state has four characteristics. It has a territory. It has a population. It has an effective government. And it has the capacity to engage in foreign relations to sign treaties and things like that. Those are the four technical criteria of a state. The issue that has been the most contentious between the two sides is the effective government. Israel and its supporters say, “Palestine does not have an effective government. It is under Israeli occupation. The governmental rights of the state, in particular the criminal rights of a state, were handed over to Israel in the Oslo Accord.”

So, the Oslo Accord says, ‘The Palestinians have no criminal jurisdiction over Israelis in the West Bank.’ The Oslo Accord says, ‘The Palestinians have no criminal jurisdiction over Area C,’ which is where most of the settlements are located. So, the argument of Israel is, “In the Oslo Accord, the Palestinians handed over already all criminal jurisdiction to Israel. Having done that, it cannot go and say it will hand over criminal jurisdiction to the ICC. They can’t do it because they signed over the jurisdiction in the Oslo Accord to Israel.” The main argument on the Palestinian side is, “If Palestinians don’t have an effective government, it is because of Israeli criminality. In particular, the building of the settlements, the building of the wall. All of these illegal undertakings are the reason why Palestinians don’t exercise effective government.” So, the argument is, “If you say, ‘Palestinians can’t refer a case to the ICC because they don’t have effective government,’ you’re, in effect, rewarding Israel for illegal behaviour.” The argument being, “It is Israeli illegal behaviour that is responsible for the fact that Palestinians aren’t able to exercise effective government.” So, those are the main arguments on both sides.

After the issue of territory, the main Israeli argument is, “The Palestinians agreed that territorial issues would be resolved in the course of negotiations. So, the Palestinians agreed to defer into the future the question of whose territory is it.” The main argument on the Palestinian side is, “It has already been decided by the International Court of Justice, for example, that the West Bank, including East Jerusalem and Gaza, constitute – to use the nomenclature of the UN including the ICJ, the International Court of Justice, which is the principal judicial body of the United Nations – occupied Palestinian territories.” So, they say, “The issue of territory has been resolved. You want to know what the territorial jurisdiction of the ICC in this case. All you have to do is look at UN resolutions, look at the advisory opinion of the ICJ (the International Court of Justice). They all agree that the West Bank, including East Jerusalem and Gaza, are occupied Palestinian territory.”

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Dr. Finkelstein.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Interview with Donna Lent – President, National Women’s Political Caucus

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/08/11

Donna Lent is the President of the National Women’s Political Caucus. Her profile states: “Donna Lent, a member of NWPC for twenty-five years, was elected to an unprecedented third term as President at the NWPC Biennial Convention in 2019. Donna has successfully reduced overhead for the National office by 62%. Prior to this position, she was First Vice President of the National Board and Vice President of Political Planning for four years. She has also served as President of the New York State Caucus.

Before entering public service, Donna enjoyed a successful career as a Law Office Manager and small business owner. In 2001, Donna left the private sector and joined an NYS Assemblywoman as the Chief of Staff, where she played a crucial role in the passage of important legislation protecting and expanding women’s rights. After serving the constituents of the Third Assembly District, she was appointed Chief Deputy Town Clerk for the Town of Brookhaven in 2010.  Donna is currently the elected Town Clerk of Brookhaven, NY, a role she assumed in 2013 with 60% of the vote and elected to a second four-year term in 2017.

In 1992 Donna was one of the principals spearheading the nearly three year effort to create the NY State Choice Party; a counter to the NY State Right to Life Party.”

Here we talk about American politics and women’s rights.

*Interview conducted on August 3, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, this is the National Women’s Political Caucus. For those who do not know, what is the National Women’s Political Caucus in the United States? Also, how can some in Canada learn from such an effort and build on this to make sure Canadian concerns around these issues are more robustly supported as well – akin to this for the Americans?

Donna Lent: That is a very interesting point that you’ve made. Let me start out by saying, the National Women’s Political Caucus was formed in 1971. It is the oldest multi-partisan grassroots women’s organization dedicated to increasing women’s participation in the political process at all levels.

Our acronym, NWPC, refers to how we recruit, train, and invite pro-choice women at all levels of government. Also, we seek to put more women in appointed office. So, we have been doing this since 1971. Our founders include Americans Stella Adler, Shirley Chisholm, Gloria Steinem, Betty Friedan, Dorothy Height, these were great wonderful women who saw an opportunity that was not being addressed. They took the opportunity to getting more women involved in political office.

Because if we do not have a seat at the table, then you don’t have anything. That is what we’ve been doing. We have been doing trainings. We have trained many of the leaders of the country. We do training across the country. We have a “train the trainers” program.

I remember a few years back sitting in a training a few years back in Seattle, Washington. There was a woman from Canada for this. I cannot remember the name. People endorse us. The prospect of talking to somebody in Canada and doing something similar there; I would welcome it.

Jacobsen: How do American women’s rights campaigners, on the political level, look at the Canadian example? So, what is Canada doing right? What is Canada doing wrong?

Lent: I would say the first thing you are doing right is having the right kind of Prime Minister.

Jacobsen: Right [Laughing].

Lent: For one, it is is not really a discussion being had, but, maybe, it is an interesting topic to explore. It is not something to explore to me. We are so busy taking care of chapters across the United States. Not much thought is given to what is going on in other countries.

Sometimes, there will be comparisons to what happens here or other events at different locations when it comes to equality.

Jacobsen: As the NWPC President, the big picture view, what are your major concerns? Other than some of the daily putting out of small fires.

Lent: The reason, and 25 years ago when I got involved in the NWPC, is simply because my interest is in the political side. We are the NWPC. We grew out of the National Organization for Women. They are known as NOW and are more issue oriented. The caucus grew out of the political.

Jacobsen: One of the major political issues with social, economic, and policy implications in the United States has to do with the upcoming election with some caveats around some commentary around delays, as of recent.

However, given the erratic nature of the current Trump Administration, it could change. It could change in a number of ways. It could be worse. It could be better. You never know. However, assuming the election will run later this year, and with some of the candidates proposed now, what is the central concern outside from particular political candidates – we’ll get to those soon – for women who are of a progressive orientation looking at this very crucial election? What is the big “must” moving towards this election?

Lent: The big “must” is we must oppose Donald Trump [Laughing]. I do not know if the country will survive another 4 years. He has attacked the system, whether de-regulation, climate control, women’s rights, immigrant rights.

He has really methodically, methodically, been tearing down the fabric of what we have been building for years by trying to become a more progressive nation. In 4 short years, look at what he has done, there is nothing more important than removing him from office for us.

We were on board and behind Hillary Clinton before. To say we were disappointed, you cannot put that in words. There is no way to really express how devastating it was to women across the country. Not all women, I get that.

I remember the following day. I was getting calls from people who had worked with us, e.g., interns, staff person, etc. We realized that we had to pull it together because we had to show the younger women how to get into the fight again and continue working.

That is what we have been doing. In 2018, the women we endorsed for office, the campaigns that we helped, the trainings that we did. We have record numbers of women running in the United States. We have an assurance or a promise from Joe Biden that he is choosing a woman as his vice presidential choice.

We do not really care. It could be anyone. You see the different women who we profiled in the Imagine series. It could be any one of them. One thing is sure. If Biden is running, then there will be a capable woman running who will have our endorsement.

As an organization, we have already voted to endorse whoever is elected because when women show up; women win, and everyone wins. That is what we’re working for. We are really excited about the announcement that is going to come next week.

There is no proof as to who it is going to be. However, as I said, any one of them will be, certainly, someone who we will be proud to get behind and to help support, and to help this ticket win in November. That was our goal in the Imagine campaign.

It was to highlight the women being considered because we don’t want it to be a situation where once Biden chooses his vice presidential running mate; that the other women are forgotten. My sense is probably every one of those women will somehow be chosen to work at a high level in the Biden administration, if not even a Cabinet position.

We want to be sure. Even if they are not chosen to be the vie presidential nominee, we really did want to highlight them and to say, “We’re behind each and every one of them.” It is a great opportunity for a woman to be in the second command of this country.

Jacobsen: Who are the main threats in terms of organized groups in the United States to issues very much touchstones for women’s rights, i.e., reproductive healthcare, women’s free access to opportunities in education or employment, and the freedom to pick one of the three choices in life – in terms of free choice – in the home, a mix between home and professional life, or purely professional life?

Lent: When the announcement finally happens, I am looking to having, at least, one day of celebration.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Lent: And to feel some joy, because I know shortly thereafter the misogyny will begin and go on the attack. We have to be prepared for that. I think one of the things that we need to have in this country, and which Joe Biden supports, is the Equal Rights Amendment. We do not have one in this country.

Other countries are democracies. The United States will require the imagination that they have an equal rights amendment in their constitution. Yet, we do not have one in ours. I know many people are not aware. Women are not equal here.

The Equal Rights Amendment is for all people. It is not codified in the Constitution. So, a lot of the things mentioned by you. There is a lot of activity in the United States right now surrounding it. We are one of the lead organizations in another group called the ERA Coalition.

We have gotten hearings in Congress. We have assurances from the Senate minority leader. There is going to be a push for the ERA. The initial law requires 30 states. They have extended the time limit. Virginia became the 38th state to ratify.

The other 13 had time expire. We joined and filed an amicus brief in a case to do away with the time limit. We are hoping that that will be heard in next year’s session.

Jacobsen: As a side question, what state in the United States has the worst reputation and status for women’s rights?

Lent: Oh! There are so many.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Lent: Mostly, it is the southern states: Louisiana, Alabama, Tennessee. Even though, I have chapters in Tennessee to get women elected. Mississippi has never had a woman serving in Congress. There are other areas in regards to education.

There are so many. You have South Carolina. North Carolina, now, has a new governor. There is an effort in North Carolina to pass the ERA too.

Jacobsen: If Joe Biden is elected, and anyone of the women from the Imagine campaign is put forward and made the vice president, how would you rank order the top three asks as an organization, as NWPC, for improving the status of women’s rights? This will be time-bound because of the shredding of some facets of the institutions and the policies built in the past for the stabilization and implementation of women’s rights in the United States.

Lent: The first step would be passing tan Equal Rights Amendment. That would go a long way. Then we have healthcare. We have childcare. Those are really important issues, which are really compelling and deserve a lot of attention.

Then you have climate control. We have gun control. There are so may issues. Women bring a different perspective. I think that very often, especially in some of the states or the more [Laughing] red states with gun rights and fun ownership, families, and God; the gun rights can become more important than the making sure every child has a meal before they go to bed at  night.

We have a Equal Rights Amendment. We  have childcare. For example, here in the United States with the Covid issue, Trump is pushing to opening up the schools. However, we cannot have schools on part-time. Women are working. How are they going to care for their children?

You can’t have a job and work two days a week because, then, you’re not going to have a job. Yet, there has been no talk about provision to provide financial assistance with childcare to get women through this healthcare crisis. It is a healthcare crisis.

Jacobsen: In the general demographic cut up, according to experts in the United States, the categories that tend to come forward are white Americans, black Americans, Asian Americans, Hispanic Americans, Jewish Americans, Arab Americans, and Native Americans.

Each has different issues, different privileges, etc. What are the issue particular to women of colour in the United States? How is this reflected in some of the demands made upon politicians by women of colour who are ordinary citizens who happen, in general and on average, tend to lead more precarious lives than women who are not?

Lent: What is important in that, it is to be able to hear from women in each of those communities, to include those women in the discussions, policy discussions. How do you do that? You have them fill positions.

Maybe, it is not the woman struggling and working three jobs. But maybe, there are other women who understand the plight they are going through. Maybe, they women have chosen a path that is political and policymaking.

It is important to have voice for women of colour. It is important that we do not have one person, whether white or brown, speak for such a rainbow of people. Everybody needs to have their authentic voice heard. That is why women need to be at the table.

You cannot assume because you have put a woman in the position or that she wanted the position; that she will understand, at her core, what a Native American woman is going through. So, that is why it is important.

We have a diversity committee. I have a Vice-President for Diversity and Outreach, where a lot of attention is paid to this topic. When I was elected as president of this organization in 2015, I set out to have one of the most diverse boards that the caucus has ever seen.

“Diversity” does not mean black or white. It leads to disabled people, younger people, economic diversity. There are some women that have done very well for themselves. They serve on our board. But you also have to have the voice of a woman who can’t write the big cheque.

Because if you close yourself off to that, then you are really not serving.

Jacobsen: What is the most tragic story that you have ever heard?

Lent: We hear about women who really do struggle with a lot of issues. We hear from women because of an economic situation have lost their children. We have been involved in cases where the father of the house has taken the child back to another country.

I had a case in Florida who tried to get her child back. There is so many. A lot of people will contact her. They are grabbing at straws and looking for help. But because we, for the most part, as a political organization; we try to help by referring them out to other services that may able to help them.

I had one case. I will not say, “This is tragic,” by any means, but I want to give an idea of what we do. It was someone ex-military. Her husband was still on active duty. She had two children. One was a newborn. He had chosen – the husband – to work in the Trump Administration.

So, it was an open seat. That is what we call it when it is an incumbent running. She wanted to run, but she was out of the service for 2 to 2.5 years going against another very wealthy male candidate and was having trouble putting us together to run a campaign.

We arranged to get her complete professional wardrobe. We shipped it down to South Carolina. So, she could have more confidence and present herself professionally to help with the campaign. It was the primary. She was still involved politically.

I remember her first campaign video. She did the video breastfeeding her baby. That was new, only three years ago, roughly. That is our mission: to get women, find them, train them, recruit them to run, and have them cross the finish line.

Jacobsen: I am told of a growing academic literature rather than even a sociological commentary on the phenomenon of Christian Nationalism. This ties to the same idea as Dominionism or Reconstructionism within a particular brand of theocratically oriented theology coming out of Christianity.

What is the cross-section there between some of the work you’re doing, and some of the organizations or personalities that are grounded in this notion of the providence of the Christian god, for having a Christian nation and having their particular idiosyncratic reading of Christian theology placed into political life, policy, and the wider culture of the United States?

Lent: I am not by any means think I am an authoritative voice on this. I ma here to tell you. Here in the United States, Christianity is used in a way that, in the end, I believe, ends up hurting women and families, e.g., Betsy DeVos, the U.S. Secretary of Education.

She is definitely education here. Her and her husband made their money with for-profit prisons and charter schools. She is responsible for making policies for schools in this country. For the caucus, that is something.

For example, our board members, I have Jewish women. I am sure; I have agnostic women. I have Christians within the membership. I have Muslim woman on the board from Tennessee. The organization is based in politics. Religion is not the forefront of that.

Jacobsen: My final question: Any recommended books, authors, organizations, or speakers for the readers today?

Lent: There are so many books written on this topic. We have a little known book by one of our founding members. She is not even a well-known founding member. But she was featured on the recent Hulu series called Mrs. America. Although, I appreciate bringing some attention, certainly, to our organization.

I was not appreciative of the way in which they portrayed some of our founding women. It is called, the book, Not One of the Boys: Living Life as a Feminist by Brenda Feigen. It is not philosophical thought.

It is more a personal accounting of living during the 60s and the 70s trying to live life as a feminist. Many times, people start with Betty Friedan’s Feminine Mystique. There are a lot of works looking at the first wave, second wave, of feminism.

Personally, I am the person who does not want to sit around the table and talk about the philosophy of the feminist person. I am the type of person who wants to make it happen. That is why the caucus was good for me.

Because you work and then have a result. You find a woman who you think would make a good public official. You recruit her, train her, and then get her elected. Then you move on to the next. So, you can fill the table in every locality with a woman’s voice. That’s how change is made.

Because you need the perspective. The book I happen to be reading now is by Robyn DiAngelo called White Fragility: Why It is So Hard for White People to Talk about Racism if you want to talk about social impact.

Jacobsen: Donna, thank you for your time today.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

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© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 7 – New Heights to the Plight and the Fight: Covid-19, Hegemony, Restrictions, and Rights

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/08/10

Omar Shakir, J.D., M.A. works as the Israel and Palestine Director for Human Rights Watch. He investigates a variety of human rights abuses within the occupied Palestinian territories/Occupied Palestinian Territories or oPt/OPT (Gaza and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem) and Israel. Language recognized in the work of the OHCHRAmnesty InternationalOxfam InternationalUnited NationsWorld Health OrganizationInternational Labor OrganizationUNRWAUNCTAD, and so on. Some see the Israeli-Palestinian issue as purely about religion. Thus, this matters to freethought. These ongoing interviews explore this issue in more depth. He earned a B.A. in International Relations from Stanford University, an M.A. in Arab Studies from Georgetown University’s School of Foreign Affairs, and a J.D. from Stanford Law School. He is bilingual in Arabic and English. Previously, he was a Bertha Fellow at the Center for Constitutional Rights with a focus on U.S. counterterrorism policies, which included legal representation of Guantanamo detainees. He was the Arthur R. and Barbara D. Finberg Fellow (2013-2014) for Human Rights Watch with investigations, during this time, into the human rights violations in Egypt, e.g., the Rab’a massacre, which is one of the largest killings of protestors in a single day ever. Also, he was a Fulbright Scholar in Syria.

Here we continue with the 7th part in our series of conversations with coverage in the middle of March to the middle of April for the Israeli-Palestinian issue. With the deportation of Shakir, this follows in line with state actions against others, including Amnesty International staff member Laith Abu Zeyad when attempting to see his mother dying from cancer (Amnesty International, 2019; Zeyad, 2019; Amnesty International, 2020), United States Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib and United States Congresswoman Ilhan Omar who were subject to being barred from entry (Romo, 2019), Professor Noam Chomsky who was denied entry (Hass, 2010), and Dr. Norman Finkelstein who was deported in the past (Silverstein, 2008). Shakir commented in an opinion piece:

Over the past decade, authorities have barred from entry MIT professor Noam Chomsky, U.N. special rapporteurs Richard Falk and Michael Lynk, Nobel Peace Prize winner Mairead Maguire, U.S. human rights lawyers Vincent Warren and Katherine Franke, a delegation of European Parliament members, and leaders of 20 advocacy groups, among others, all over their advocacy around Israeli rights abuses. Israeli and Palestinian rights defenders have not been spared. Israeli officials have smearedobstructed and sometimes even brought criminal charges against them. (Shakir, 2019)

Now, based on the decision of the Israeli Supreme Court and the actions of the Member State of the United Nations, Israel, he, for this session, works from Amman, Jordan.

*Interview conducted on April 19, 2020. The previous interview conducted on March 16, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: With regards to Israel and Israeli society, what have been some human rights violations against Israelis since we last talked (Jacobsen, 2020a)?

Omar Shakir: I think the major issue that’s dominated the world for the past six weeks or so has been the coronavirus and the way in which different governments have responded to it (Schalit & Zion, 2020; The Associated Press, 2020; Akram, 2020a; Daraghmeh & Krauss, 2020; Akram, 2020b; Akram, 2020c; Federman, 2020; Reuters, 2020a; Ganeyeh & Shakhshir, 2020; Reuters, 2020b; Reuters, 2020c; Najib & Halbfinger, 2020). On the Israeli side, of course, that’s necessitated significant restrictions, including limitations on movement between towns and cities inside Israel, as well as closures of entire neighbourhoods (TOI Staff, 2020; Jerusalem Post Staff, 2020) where there has been significant exposure to the virus (al-Mughrabi, 2020). We have seen limitations on travel into and out of the country necessitated by the virus (Nimeh & Sawafta, 2020). So, a lot of the focus has been on both efforts to contain the virus as well, as on some of the restrictions brought about as a result of it (Toameh, & Ahronheim, 2020). Of course, the fact of restriction does not automatically connote rights abuse. It has to be taken holistically into account given the situation in the country. Certainly, there have been numerous ways in which the Israeli government’s response to the Covid-19 pandemic has manifested the institutional discrimination at the core of the system (Federman, 2020; Magdy & Krauss, 2020). For example, we have seen the Israeli government shut down testing centers in East Jerusalem for claiming that it was being supported by the Palestinian Authority (Hasson, 2020).

We have also seen areas in which the Israeli government has not provided sufficient testing of populations such as areas in the Jerusalem municipality, but outside the separation barrier, including Shuafat and Kafr ‘Aqab, where you have well more than 100,000 residents (Abraham, 2020; Al-Waara, 2020a). In these areas, there was no testing for several weeks until after the human rights group Adalah filed a lawsuit (Ibid.). We’ve also seen concerns raised about surveillance (Melman, R., Fatafta, M., & Berda, Y., 2020). The Israeli government, as part of its Covid-19 response, passed regulations that widened the scope of surveillance that Shin Bet and the government was allowed to carry out in response to the health crisis (Bajak & Winefield, 2020; Heller, 2020). Of course, there have been lawsuits filed by Israeli human rights organizations who fear this could widen the scope of surveillance conducted by the government and remain in place after the crisis wanes down.

Jacobsen: If we are looking down at one of the areas where people are most fearful of calamity, how are cases looking there?

Shakir: Gaza Strip, the number of cases remain low, but there is significant concern about what would happen should the virus enter (Akram, 2020d; Akram, Aji, & Krauss, 2020). The Israeli closure has weakened considerably the healthcare system in the Gaza Strip (United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs: Occupied Palestinian Territory, 2020). The local health ministry has reported on a shortage of ventilators and ICU beds (Relief Web/Physicians for Human Rights Israel, 2020). Of course, should the crises continue and there are more cases there, there is a question to what extent Gaza can handle such a situation amid closure (al-Qedra, 2020). At the same time, there is concern about the number of testing kits and a question as to the efficacy of the strategy of the Hamas authorities to largely focus on restricting those who re-enter Gaza and putting them in quarantine centers (Toameh, & Ahronheim, 2020). There isn’t widespread testing being done on the rest of the population (Reuters/Jerusalem Post, 2020). There is concern about number of testing kits received based on the restrictions by Israel, potentially the PA, and other actors (Ibid.; United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs: Occupied Palestinian Territory, 2020; United Nations Office of the High Commissioner, 2018). So, the Hamas authorities like others have shut down much of life in the Gaza Strip. There is a lot of concern given Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on Earth. Social distancing, which has been a central response around the world, is much more difficult in Gaza (BBC News, n.d.).

There is a concern about the possibility of an outbreak. It still yet has to take place; if this is to happen in the coming weeks and months, then the prospect for a humanitarian disaster, unfortunately, would be quite high.

Jacobsen: What about the West Bank?

Shakir: In the West Bank, the Palestinian Authority has very quickly, when this crisis began, taken measures in the areas where it exercises a degree of control (Haaretz, 2020). The outbreak began in Bethlehem there with a number of cases and spread to other parts of the West Bank (Zeidan, 2020). The PA has also declared lockdowns throughout (Ragson, 2020). As part of those efforts, it has been particularly concerned regarding Palestinian workers who have permits to work in Israel or settlements and have increasingly returned (Xinhua, 2020). Many of them came back with symptoms of the coronavirus (Al-Waara, 2020b). The government is taking a very proactive position because it faces limitations like in Gaza when it comes to healthcare capacity and ability to response, as well as the nature of Israeli hegemony and domination throughout the West Bank (Jacobsen, 2020a; Jacobsen, 2020b). These dynamics limit the degree to which the PA is able to take a robust response. Of course, there is concern again there about what could happen should things escalate. We have seen the PA and Israel take sharper measures to restrict movement within the West Bank and, of course, and between the West bank and inside Israel – and between East Jerusalem and the rest of the West Bank.

Jacobsen: With regards to East Jerusalem, is the situation more or less the same with hegemonic restrictions with the capacity to deal with the crisis?

Shakir: Israel annexed East Jerusalem in 1967 in a move no other country except maybe the Trump Administration in the U.S. acknowledges, but the municipality has in its planning document a commitment to maintaining the Jewish majority (Jacobsen, 2020c; Jacobsen, 2020b). It maintains deeply discriminatory systems. It has manifested itself in regards to the coronavirus, both in terms of availability of testing and the ways in which authorities have dealt with the different populations and communities. There have been more cases as of late. There have been efforts by the PA to help build the capacities of different neighbourhoods. Those efforts have resulted in the shuttering of testing centres, arrest of authorities linked to the PA trying to mount a response, at the same time the Israeli government has failed to meet its duties in regards to the communities there. In many ways, the Covid pandemic has exposed the deep discrimination at the core of Israel’s regime of control of Palestinians throughout the territories (Human Rights Watch, 2019).

Jacobsen: What about the relieving of the elderly and the sick, or otherwise, in Israel?

Shakir: I assume we’re talking about places of detention.

Jacobsen: Yes.

Shakir: There has been concern over the plight of prisoners about the spread of the virus in places of detention (The International Committee of the Red Cross, 2020; Nassar, 2020). We have seen places around the world shutter prisons and release prisoners (Radio Farda, 2020). On the Israeli side, we have seen the release of some detainees, particularly Jewish prisoners. We haven’t seen much movement to date in terms of Palestinian political prisoners, or what Israeli authorities consider “security detainees.” We do know that there were at least four Palestinians exposed to an interrogator who was infected by the coronavirus (Samidoun Palestinian Prisoner Solidarity Network, 2020). Of course, there has been concern about a potential outbreak in places of detention. Human Rights Watch has universally called on governments, including the Israeli government, to release detainees, particularly those who are vulnerable to the virus in addition to aggressively guarding against spread and ensuring quality healthcare for all in detention.

Jacobsen: Some have been making some commentary with Covid-19, the reactions to Covid-19, in terms of the governmental or state measures to restrict its measures throughout territories or societies. The comparison has been made on the restrictions on the lives of Palestinians imposed in part now in those in more free or the freer societies. Is this a window into seeing the situation through the eyes of Palestinians in terms of the restrictions on their lives when those restrictions, some of them, are imposed, for health reasons, on freer societies’ citizens’ lives?

Shakir: I would say Covid-19 restrictions offer a glimpse into the Palestinian experience. At the end of the day, it is only a glimpse because Palestinians have faced for decades far worse restrictions (Human Rights Watch, 2019). Covid-19 restrictions pale in comparison to what Palestinians have faced for decades. Take, for example, movement restrictions, the Israeli government inside its own government has imposed restrictions on inner city travel for short periods and has imposed closures on entire neighbourhoods, but Israel for the past 13 years has closed the Gaza Strip – effectively caged, alongside Egypt, 2 million people as per a generalized travel ban vastly disproportionate to any security threat, where people cannot travel or leave Gaza, including to the rest of the occupied Palestinian territory, with only narrow exceptions. Israel also for the 2.5 million Palestinians in the West Bank imposes severe travel restrictions, including blocking their access to the rest of the occupied West Bank, and having them face hundreds of checkpoints inside the West Bank where a routine drive to school, work, to family can turn into an hours-long humiliating ordeal (United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs: Occupied Palestinian Territory, 2020). Covid-19 has also resulted in family separation worldwide, but this has been Israeli policy with regards to Palestinians for many years. Israel passed a law in 2003 that prohibits Israeli citizens or spouses from bringing their spouse to live with them in Israel or in occupied East Jerusalem or to grant them long-term legal status if they are Palestinian from the West Bank or Gaza (Human Rights Watch, 2005). Israel since 2000 has largely frozen the process that would allow Palestinians in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip to confer status to a spouse that is not living in the same area. But unlike the coronavirus restrictions, which are temporary and meant to protect one’s citizens, the restrictions on Palestinians have been in place for over half of a century with no signs of ending any time soon and they’re not meant to protect Palestinians.

Jacobsen: What happened with the Gaza activists who were jailed by Hamas based on a video chat with Israelis?

Shakir: Sure, Hamas authorities in Gaza Strip have detained for over a week now 7 activists for participating in a Zoom call or video chat with Israelis (Akram, 2020e). They have charged them or have accused them with engaging in “normalization” or activities with Israelis not rooted in challenging Israeli repression. These detainees remain in detention. They have been subjected – some of them, at least –to mistreatment in detention. There is no justification for detaining people for their peaceful free expression, whether or not you agree with that political speech. Hamas authorities should immediately release these men. It is part of a systematic, longstanding process of arbitrarily arresting individuals based on their free expression and mistreating and torturing them in detention.

Jacobsen: What about the clinic in Silwan that was raided and then activists were arrested?

Shakir: As I mentioned, I think, it manifests part of the discriminatory system in Jerusalem and throughout Israel and Palestine. It seems that the Israeli government has failed in many areas to meet its obligation of providing testing and health care to Palestinian communities. When other actors try to provide that, instead of actually dealing with the underlying issue, which is the access to healthcare for the community, it has gone ahead and detained those who are trying to provide that service.

Jacobsen: Why does Saudi Arabia have a mass trial and arrests of Jordanians?

Shakir: I would refer you to a publication we just issued on the subject, which you can find online: “Saudi Arabia: Abuses Taint Mass Terrorism Trial.”

Jacobsen: Take care, Omar.

Shakir: Alright, Scott, take care and stay healthy.

Previous Sessions (Chronological Order)

Interview with Omar Shakir – Israel and Palestine Director, Human Rights Watch (Middle East and North Africa Division)

HRW Israel and Palestine (MENA) Director on Systematic Methodology and Universal Vision

Human Rights Watch (Israel and Palestine) on Common Rights and Law Violations

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 1 – Recent Events

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 2 – Demolitions

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 3 – November-December: Deportation from Tel Aviv, Israel for Human Rights Watch Israel and Palestine Director

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 4 – Uninhabitable: The Viability of Gaza Strip’s 2020 Unlivability

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 5 – The Trump Peace Plan: Is This the “The Deal of the Century,” or Not?

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 6 – Tripartite Partition: The Israeli Elections, the International Criminal Court (ICC), and SARS-CoV-2/COVID-19

Addenda

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) Addendum: Some History and Contextualization of Rights

Other Resources Internal to Canadian Atheist

Interview with Dr. Norman Finkelstein on Gaza Now

Extensive Interview with Gideon Levy

Interview with Musa Abu Hashash – Field Researcher (Hebron District), B’Tselem

Interview with Gideon Levy – Columnist, Haaretz

Interview with Dr. Usama Antar – Independent Political Analyst (Gaza Strip, Palestine)

Interview with Wesam Ahmad – Representative, Al-Haq (Independent Palestinian Human Rights Organization)

Extensive Interview with Professor Richard Falk – Fmr. (5th) United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967

Extensive Interview with Professor John Dugard – Fmr. (4th) United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967

Extensive Interview with S. Michael Lynk – (7th) United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967

Conversation with John Dugard, Richard Falk, and S. Michael Lynk on the Role of the Special Rapporteur, and the International Criminal Court & Jurisdiction

To resolve the Palestinian question we need to end colonialism

Trump’s Colonial Solution to the Question of Palestine Threatens the Foundations of International Law

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Reuters. (2020a, March 25). Palestinians report first death from coronavirus. Retrieved from https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-palestinians/palestinians-report-first-death-from-coronavirus-idUSKBN21C2U9.

Reuters. (2020c, April 16). U.S. gives $5 million to Palestinians amid pandemic, after years of aid cuts. Retrieved from https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa-palestinians/u-s-gives-5-million-to-palestinians-amid-pandemic-after-years-of-aid-cuts-idUSKBN21Y38E.

Reuters/Jerusalem Post. (2020, April 8). Gaza runs out of coronavirus tests, Palestinian health officials say. Retrieved from https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/gaza-runs-out-of-coronavirus-tests-palestinian-health-officials-say-624070.

Romo, V. (2019, August 15). Reps. Omar And Tlaib Barred From Visiting Israel After Trump Supports A Ban. Retrieved from https://www.npr.org/2019/08/15/751430877/reps-omar-and-tlaib-barred-from-visiting-israel-after-trump-insists-on-ban/.

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Schalit, A. & Zion, I.B. (2020, April 3). After ignoring warnings, Israeli ultra-Orthodox hit by virus. Retrieved from https://apnews.com/4896e6623e4200b927b935b647f401bd.

Shakir, O. (2019, April 18). Israel wants to deport me for my human rights work. Retrieved from https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/04/18/israel-wants-deport-me-my-human-rights-work/.

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Toameh, K.A. & Ahronheim, A. (2020, March 22). Coronavirus spread in Gaza would be a ‘catastrophe’. Retrieved from https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/gaza-two-residents-diagnosed-with-coronavirus-621837.

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Zeyad, L.A. (2019, December 16). Facebook Twitter Why is Israel preventing me from accompanying my mother to chemotherapy?. Retrieved from https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2019/12/why-is-israel-preventing-me-from-accompanying-my-mother-to-chemotherapy/.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Jon 16 – American Exceptionalism: or, “You don’t know everything.”

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/08/07

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New YorkHere we talk about American exceeptionlism.

*Interview conducted on August 3, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Okay! This is another Ask Jon. You wanted to talk about the concept or the claim of American exceptionalism. A) What is American exceptionalism typically directed towards? B) What are some obvious critiques?

Jonathan Engelman: We should talk about what it is. American exceptionalism is a belief held by many Americans that the United States is somehow – with a religious orientation to it, and a political one too – having God anointing America the greatest country ever and, therefore, then it shall always be so. Many Americans believe it. Many Americans are afraid to say that they don’t believe it.

You would find it hard to see a politician say it. I will say it because I am not looking for everyone’s vote. But with the idea of America as always great and as always the best is, from the point of non-Americans, is arrogant and conceited, if you look at it from the view of an American, it is arrogant and conceited, foolish and wrong, but also dangerous. I think it is dangerous because it brings an air of complacency. That, somehow, the United States is untouchable.

Because we will always be great because that is the way that it is, then you don’t have to look at your faults, get better, improve as a society. That’s not true. We’re seeing this right now. The United States has handled Covid worse than anywhere else in the world. Trump and others tell us that we’re handling it better. There’s a receptive audience for him.

They will believe this without evidence and, in fact, contrary to what they see with their own eyes if they will only open them and take a look. Yet, they will believe it, because he says, ‘America is the best.’ So, they think, “America is the best.” You see this happening with Covid while having a ridiculous death rate, which is not going away.

That concept, again, has some religious overtones, as to how it developed, but that concept is very dangerous to us as a country. I was reading something, recently, about the view of the United States from foreign countries from around the world.

There was a time when the United States, for years, has been alternately hated, envied, and admired. Now, we’re being pitied. Just wrap you head about that, Americans who believe in our inherent exceptionalism. We’re being pitied by the rest of the world.

You are really a disgrace. But that’s the concept. That’s what a lot of people believe. You go back. People talk about the Founding Fathers of this country, as if they were gods. They weren’t gods. In fact, many of them were deists. They believed some creator started the world, but believed that’s it. It is all humans. Most importantly, deists believe that everything that you see on Earth has a reasonable, logical, and scientific explanation.

No supernatural explanation, they do not believe God is doing anything to direct affairs of human beings. Remember that the Founding Fathers of this country, I do not even like the sound of that phrase because it sounds so godly. They borrowed quite a bit from Enlightenment thinkers in Europe. They were very open about it. Jefferson was open about it. Hamilton was open about it.

They learned and borrowed from Enlightenment thinkers about it. Today, you have Americans saying, ‘The Founding Fathers brought the ideas originally,’ as if Moses coming down the mountain with the Ten Commandments. There’s no thought processes involved. It is very dangerous for our country. We are seeing how it is playing out here. We have got to get with the program.

We have one shot. It comes in November. For us to get back on track, with an understanding that the United States is only one country in the world, we have allies who pursue many of the same values, at least generally, that we do, which are liberal democratic society values believing in human rights, believing in basic freedoms, believing in justice and a system of justice.

And that we need to coordinate and be a part of that community. We need to advance those values, which under Trump we have stopped doing. We don’t seem to care much about values like justice and human rights. This is what we will need to do to rebuild our country. But we have got to think about this from the standpoint of “we have a lot of work to do.” It won’t happen magically because we are the United States of America.

We have seen how this virus has exposed that our infrastructure is crumbling and needs to be repaired. It has exposed that our healthcare system, if you can call it that, leaves too many people behind. It is going to be one of the big questions moving forward; obviously, only if, we get rid of Trump. What are we going to do moving forward to learn our lessons that we should be learning to grow from this crisis? To learn and grow, you have to acknowledge that you don’t know everything.

Jacobsen: Sir, thank you.

Engelman: Alright, Scott, take care of yourself.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Gary 1 – What is Humanists International?

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/08/07

Gary McLelland is the Chief Executive of Humanists International: “Gary joined Humanists International in February 2017. Before this he worked for the Humanist Society Scotland since 2013 as Head of Communications and Public Affairs. He has also previously served as a Board member of the European Humanist Federation based in Brussels, as well as a board member of the Scottish Joint Committee on Religious and Moral Education. Before working in Humanist campaigning, Gary worked for a global citizenship project at the Mercy Corps European headquarters in Edinburgh, and also in policy and service delivery in education and social work. He has a BSc (hons) in psychology, a diploma in childhood and youth studies and master’s in human rights law, in which he researched the approach of the European Court of Human Rights and the United Nations’ approach to so-called ‘blasphemy laws’.”

Here we talk about the #HumanistsAtRisk campaign, #EndBlasphemyLaws campaign, and the annual report.

*Interview conducted on August 7, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: You are the Chief Executive for Humanists International, formerly International Humanist and Ethical Union, which is a major international humanist body. E talk about the Humanists At Risk campaign, the End Blasphemy Laws campaign, and the annual report. All three are touchstones and important for an international secular community. What is the Humanists At Risk campaign?

Gary McLelland: Thank you, Scott, the Humanists At Risk campaign is something that we launched in 2017. At that time, we were receiving an increasing number of requests from humanists and atheists around the world who were looking to relocate through letters of support for asylum to national authorities, or money support. Over the years, the number of requests have gone up over the years. The number of requests that we have received have gone up every year. To the end of 2019, we received about 96 requests.

As of this year, we’ve received – 2020 – over 100 already. That’s more than double in the space of the year. Over 2020, we have been able to hire a full time Humanists At Risk Coordinator. Her name is Emma Wadsworth-Jones. She’s fantastic. She joined us from PEN International, the writer’s charity, where she ran the Writer’s At Risk program. She has a lot of experience in helping people targeted for artistic expression

Often, those people are the same s humanists. There is an overlapping Venn diagram of human rights campaigns with an intersect with humanist campaigner, LGBT campaigner, democratic rights campaigner, artistic expression campaigner. If you understand the values underpinning humanism, it isk not a surprise that this is the case. Emma brings a wealth of experience. Overt he past few months since she started, we have instituted guidelines and rank the level of urgency of cases.

Even with saying what I’ve said, we are still a small organization with 8u members in the staff. It is difficult to maintain. We don’t ave that much money. Our annual budget is under half of a million U.S. dollars per year. It is hard to prioritize the monies. It means saying, “No,” which is not easy sometimes. We published an article on the Humanists International website today about how we provide the support and a breakdown of the ages and locations of the people and the countries that they come from.

It is something that we have been doing. We have been working with a range of partners behind the scenes. We have been looking to introduce a trusted partners scheme to flag individual cases and governments, and NGOs, to fast-track them for funding. Hopefully, this will help us to get them the help that they need.

One of the ones that I worth mentioning is the emblematic case of Mubarak Bala, the President of the Humanists Association of Nigeria. He was detained on the 28th of April. Yesterday, on the 6th of August, he has been detained for 100 days without trial, without charge, or contact for the lawyer, in spite of a  court instruction or court order for the lawyer to have access. It is still not being granted by the police.

That is still emblematic of what we’re dealing with. It is important that Mubarak’s case is getting the attention. But it is still not enough. We have 100 or more cases without nearly this attention. As you know, there are also many cases that we can’t talk about; there are so many amazingly brave people in very brave circumstances that we know about but can’t talk about, because this would put them more at risk to be affiliated with an organization like ours.

It’s heartbreaking. There are some times that you make good progress on cases. This is one of the more difficult cases of the work for sure.

Jacobsen: Some of them get into trouble for particular reasons. This leads to the next campaign. What is the End Blasphemy Laws campaign?

McLelland: So, the End Blasphemy Laws campaign is a coalition that we lead and started back in 2015. Humanist Canada was one of the founding members of the End Blasphemy Laws campaign. It is a global coalition of humanist and other organizations. It comes together on this single issue of blasphemy laws and tries to make the coherent and easy argument: Blasphemy laws in themselves as bad, inherently bad, and don’t make sense, are inconsistent with principles of free speech and critical inquiry. Often, they are used in a discriminatory way against people who are minorities including humanists, atheists, and minority religious beliefs.

Ahmadiyya Muslims, Christians in Pakistan, etc., we have had charges of blasphemy against ex-Muslims in Britain. There was a case in Britain. But it has been repealed in Britain, as in Canada. As it was, it was understood to only apply to the Church of England or the majority historical religion, as it is around the world. It is meant to protect “incumbent interests” [Laughing].

This is a number of problems. One of them you’ve noted, which is humanist campaigners whose inherent expression and values can seem blasphemous. But also, it is for people who are progressive reformers within religious groups. Their views can be seen as heretical or beyond the pale, according to orthodox religious beliefs. That’s very dangerous, but very dangerous in a different category than atheists and humanists expressing themselves because we know that big ideas like religion.

They only reform and liberalize, and move forward, because of the courage of individuals to speak out and question taboos and orthodoxies. History is littered with victims who tried to do that in the past to varying levels of success. Blasphemy laws are a blockage in that process of group questioning and openness in ideology. That’s the End Blasphemy Laws campaign. It has a more succinct page, much more succinct than my explanation.

What we do, on that website, we record every country that had a blasphemy law at 2015 or onwards and every country that has repealed its blasphemy law in 2015 or onwards. You’ll see a colour coded map of green and then varying darknesses of red, according to whether it has been repealed and the harshness of the punishments up to 8 countries in which it is a capital offense. That is the End Blasphemy Laws campaigns as a coalition founded in 2015 with mainly humanist organizations.

We have updated it, added some new branding. What we’re doing at the moment is contacting other NGOs, even religious organizations, we have an idea that we want to make this idea much more broad-based. We genuinely think that the issue of blasphemy is one that can unite basically every right-thinking person. There’s no reason.

I should state. Many rights organizations are against blasphemy laws. Most religious organizations that I’ve spoken to realize that when they’re in the minority; they’re against blasphemy laws. As I said, sometimes, the majority or incumbent position make it more difficult. Especially in Western countries, when religion is becoming less and less influential, they see their trappings of establishment and state support as something that they need to hold onto in a defensive way.

However, the Church of England will support the right of Christians in Pakistan to practice without fear of blasphemy accusations. Of course, they will, and so on and so forth. We’re trying to appeal to religious NGOs to join our campaign to eliminate blasphemy laws.

Jacobsen: Lastly, the annual report, what can we expect?

McLelland: Yes, our annual report is strange because we run our reporting years January to December, which is not unusual. However, our AGM is held at various times throughout the year, not at a regular time each year, because we move the AGM around the world. You have hemispheric differences and cultural differences, etc. The AGM floats around the year from March to November. [Laughing] So, since we’re having a late AGM this year, it means that probably some time in August or September; we’re going to publish the 2019 report.

It is going to look very out of date. However, this year’s repot will look at humanists at risk because, partly, the reviewing and recapping the year of 2019. One of the big things for me, personally, and for the organization was the persecution of Gulalai Ismail who is one of our board members. She was detained in October 2018 on her way home from a board meeting in London. It will always strike me as one of the weird moments in life.

We had been out for dinner in London, trendy nice place. We had a nice dinner and three days of very intense discussions at the board meeting, enjoying and relaxing conversation. Gulalai is my friend. To get the call on the Monday/Tuesday morning on WhatsApp, she was being detained by the Pakistani intelligence services. I received a bunch of rambling calls and then some voice notes that she had been recording secretly under the desk when she was being interrogated.

From that point on, it was incommunicado for almost a year. That was a very difficult moment because I think it was the juxtaposition from being out and enjoying a meal in London to a few days later being detained without any information by the authorities in Pakistan. It was very, very difficult. Everyone in the organization was working incredibly hard alongside other organizations to get contacts, briefing people, and getting people in government to give statements of support.

In December of 2019, she made it safely to the U.S., where she claimed asylum. It was an incredible thing. However, that was an experience for us. It made us realize that if we are going to support humanists at risk like Gulalai or Mubarak; we need to do it seriously, because, in the past, the support was provided on an ad hoc basis

It was staff working on this as an adjunct to their workday rather than dedicated staff positions. One downside is lacking a development of specialized skills. People asked for legal advice. We were anxious to give legal advice to people in those dire legal circumstances because you want to make sure that it is correct. We decided in 2018 to make more support for it, which is the reason fro more funding and staff. 2018 made us aware of it.

It precipitated a bit of the moving around of the staff and some of the things to make this position possible. That’s one thing. Another thing, in 2019, we reported a 79% increase in our financial income based on 2018, which is quite a significant one. As an organization and as a movement, we are doing a lot of really good work to stabilize and grow our financial position and to professionalize. This is really good. At the same time, we have managed to more than 10x increase the amount given in growth and development.

We managed to give out around 10,000 pounds in 2018. In 2019, we gave out more than 100,000 pounds. This is wholly in grants, not staff costs. We talking about monies given to other organizations from us for capacity building and other things. With a small budget, we have been able to squeeze a lot of good outcomes out of it.

Of course, I hope this report will reassure members that we are spending their money in the best way that we can, like development agencies or government agencies, that Humanists International is an organization doing good work to protect human rights defenders and protect good liberal values as well as being an organization that they can partner with or fund.

So, that’s my advertisement.

Jacobsen: Gary, thank you.

McLelland: My pleasure.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Conversation with John Dugard, Richard Falk, and S. Michael Lynk on the Role of the Special Rapporteur, and the International Criminal Court & Jurisdiction

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/08/06

As far as I know, this is the first live group conversation between Professor John Dugard, Professor Richard Falk, and Professor S. Michael Lynk. As such, the subject matter became narrowed to the positions held by Dugard, Falk, and Lynk, and the current context before the International Criminal Court regarding jurisdiction.

Professor John Dugard is the Fmr. (4th) United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967 (2001 to 2008). He is Professor Emeritus at the Universities of Leiden and the Witwatersr, who remains one of the most important legal and investigative voices in the history of rights and law reportage for the United Nations on this issue of Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories.

Professor Richard Falk is the Fmr. (5th) United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967 (26 March 2008 – 8 May 2014). Professor Falk is Albert G. Milbank Professor of International Law and Practice, Emeritus, at Princeton University, the Director of the Climate Change Project, and an Advisor on the POMEAS Project in the Istanbul Policy Center at Sabanci University. He is widely revered as one of the great legal minds in the world today, especially on the issue of Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories, and reviled in other circles as well.

Professor S. Michael Lynk is the current (7th) United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967 (March, 2016 to Present). He is an Associate Professor at the Faculty of Law, Western University, in London, Ontario, who works in one of the most important legal and investigative positions in the history of rights and law reportage for the United Nations on this issue of Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories.

Their – Dugard’s, Falk’s, and Lynk’s – importance in the legal and rights history of this subject matter cannot be understated. In many ways, they set the tone and calibre of human rights and international humanitarian law reportage to this day. As well, this exists as a conversation with the current United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967 and two of the former special rapporteurs. The position of the United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967 isn’t, and shouldn’t, be taken lightly based the depth and length of the human rights issue, and on the level and extent of state and other actions one can encounter against oneself in the position devoted to this long-standing human rights catastrophe seen on the Israel-Palestinian issue. With great pleasure and honour, I present the extensive and narrowed live group conversation with Professors Dugard, Falk, and Lynk.  

Here we talk about the role of the United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967 and the International Criminal Court in regards to jurisdiction.

*Interview conducted on May 1, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, let’s begin, this is a 4-way conversation with John Dugard, Richard Falk, and S. Michael Lynk discussing some narrow topics concluding on the International Criminal Court jurisdiction question based on some recent news put out by Fatou Bensouda. Starting with John, beginning, how do you view your prior role as a special rapporteur?

Professor John Dugard: I placed this question on the agenda because my role was so very different from both Richard and Michael because I was allowed to enter the occupied Palestinian territories. So, my role was that of a factfinder. I visited the occupied Palestinian territories twice a year for ten days each. I spent all of the time travelling around the country visiting not only the cities, but also the rural areas and taking evidence from people whose homes had been destroyed. In 2002, for instance, I was shown the beginnings of the Wall. There were stones marking the beginning of the Wall. I alerted the United Nations that the Wall was about to be constructed. My role was very much that of a fact finder on the ground. My reports were, in large measure, reporting what I had seen, and what conversations I had had with ordinary people in both urban and rural areas. Of course, I saw the political leaders too. I had access to the leaders of the Palestinian Authority. Yasser. Arafat gave me an open door as most foreign diplomats were boycotting him at the time. He was delighted to see me. Many members of the small communities I visited liked to see me as representing the United Nations. They tended to believe that I could remedy their situations. I always felt it embarrassing because many Palestinians believed I could change their lives but I could not. The United Nations was fairly oblivious to the reports from me. I also saw my role as that of advocacy, which I suspect is the way Michael and Richard have seen their roles. I reported on the violation of human rights and international humanitarian law. I argued strongly that the occupied Palestinian territory was subject to a system of apartheid. So, this was my role, as I saw it.

Jacobsen: Richard, how about yourself?

Professor Richard Falk: I did my best to continue in the spirit very successful tenure as Special Rapporteur. I had the disadvantage from, more or less, the outset of being a target of opposition by the governments of Israel and of the United States, and by the fiercely Zionist NGOs in Geneva and New York. This produced a situation in which my first attempt to enter, as John had done previously without incident, the occupied Palestinian territories resulted in my expulsion, and detainment in a prison near Ben Gurion airport. It seemed clearly, not so much a personal attack on me but, a signal to the United Nations that if they appointed someone to whom Israel had objections, there would be adverse consequences, including signals of non-cooperation. They objected to me from the outset. Not only would they refuse to cooperate with the United Nations, but they would make life as difficult as possible for whoever tried to carry out this investigative role on behalf of a UN agency, which they were bound by treaty to respect. My expulsion was at the time a particularly newsworthy event that surprised UN officials because we had submitted our itinerary to the Israel ambassador in Geneva advance without encountering opposition. Visas had been granted to the two people accompanying me. So, the people in Geneva were convinced that I would have no trouble entering Israel for purposes of carrying out the UN mission. As I had been so viciously attacked when appointed, I was more skeptical and hesitant to come from California only to be expelled. So, I am convinced that my impression is correct– Israel wanted to send a signal of non-cooperation with the United Nations to the extent that individuals perceived as critics who were appointed to be Special Rapporteurs in the occupied Palestinian territories would encounter endless difficulties. As a result, my missions were lacking the direct experience with people and conditions on the ground in occupied Palestine that were such an important aspect of John’s contributions. In contrast, I, and Michael after me, was confined to the neighbouring countries. I listened to the testimony to those who resided outside Palestine, or could cross the border and meet with me in Jordan, Egypt, and Lebanon.

My tenure coincided with the Arab Spring that unfolded in my last few years as SR. After the peaceful overthrow of the Mubarak government in 2011, it became theoretically possible to enter Gaza by way of Egypt, although obstacles of various sort remained. After several failed attempts, I managed to do this in 2012. It was the only time during the six years that I was able to set foot in the occupied Palestinian territories as a representative of the UN. This was my only experience of direct access to the occupied Palestinian territories. I had been throughout the occupied territories previously in my role as academic and public intellectual, but never while I was Special Rapporteur. To reiterate, my contribution substantively was an endeavor to continue the work John initiated so effectively. My central intention, aside from reporting on development bearing on human rights, was to alter somewhat, the parameters of discourse on the occupied Palestinian territories within the United Nations and among civil society NGOs. I reinforced John’s influential characterizing of the situation in Palestine by indirect, although explicit reference to apartheid, not as in South African but as descriptive of the manner by which the West Bank was being administered under occupation. John also introduced the concept of settler-colonialism to describe the overall relationship between Israelis and Palestinians living under occupation. Combined with some subsequent developments with which I was involved, the allegation of apartheid became normalized in discussion of the essential nature of the occupation. It was a more realistic way of talking about the relations of Jews and Arabs. This was a change in mainstream debate. Previously charges of apartheid were rarely encountered outside of radical student activism supporting the Palestinian. Even when I became SR it was not acceptable to refer to apartheid within diplomatic circles when talking about Israeli wrongdoing as an occupying power within the provenance of public international law. The United Nations has an unappreciated role as legitimating certain ways of describing controversial situations. This role continues to have an impact during the period that Michael has been dealing with so effectively. It is what I have written about in the past under the heading of ‘legitimacy wars,’ which are often resolved in the meeting rooms of the UN rather than on the battlefield.

Professor S. Michael Lynk: As you can tell, I do my work on the shoulders of two giants. Both in human rights law, generally, and as special rapporteurs who were exemplary in their analysis with respect to what was happening in the occupied Palestinian territories. I, like Richard, have been granted access to the occupied Palestinian territories. Unlike Richard, I do not even get to go to Gaza. Any requests made to get to Gaza through Egypt has been strongly discouraged by the United Nations and by Egypt with respect as to how to travel across the Sinai with respect to the unstable security situation there. So, I go once a year to Amman (Jordan) and a number of officials from the Palestinian Authority, the various United Nations offices in the occupied Palestinian territories, and various Israeli and Palestinian human rights groups will meet me, in Amman. Or, I will Skype them. I am also constantly in touch with a number of civil society organizations in Israel and Palestine, regionally and internationally, with respect to their analysis of what is happening in the situation. Often, I have said to people who talk about my inability to enter the occupied Palestinian territories.

I have two answers. I lived there six months a long time ago in 1989 working for the United Nations during the first Palestinian Intifada working out of Jerusalem while going to all of the refugee camps. I have a feel for the topography and the human rights conditions there, albeit somewhat dated. Secondly, I have kept constantly in touch with that since; I think Richard and John would agree with this. There is probably no long-lasting conflict in the world that is as so well covered, so well reported upon, and so well advocated about by civil society as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. While my Plan A, as with all of us, would have been to spend time in the occupied Palestinian territories, a close Plan B has been to work with the civil society organizations to give me the benefits of their advocacy and to use it, which I use throughout all my reports, comments, and statements. It means, I think, that the human rights situation, which I can work on today, is reflective of the events on the ground in Israel and Palestine with respect to the occupied Palestinian territories.

Falk: One point, I have to mention. One advantage I had as a result of not being able to get to the occupied Palestinian territories and thus spending time each year in Egypt, Jordan, and elsewhere in the region, was the opportunity to meet several Hamas leaders. It was interesting because of their way of expressing their condemnation of the human rights situations in Gaza and the West Bank, coupled with their seemingly strong support for negotiating a long-term ceasefire lasting up to 50 years. Unlike public dismissal of Hamas as nothing more than a terrorist wing of the Palestinian struggle I found the individuals I met with to be thoughtful, informed, and given to reasonable proposals that moved in the direction of a peaceful resolution, not of the ultimate disposition of Palestine, but of working toward some alternative to the confrontational relationship that has existed, especially in Gaza ever since 2006 elections, which were followed by a harsh and unlawful blockade that has lasted almost 13 years and further inflamed by periodic massive military incursions and almost continuous military harassment.. These contacts were important for me, personally. It enabled me to understand more fully the complexities shaping the overall politics of the situation, which included, at that time, sharp tensions between the Palestinian Authority leadership and the Hamas leadership, and a resultant international projection of Palestinian disunity.

Dugard: To Richard and Michael, did you have any difficulties meeting with the leaders of Hamas from the perspective of the United Nations? I say this because when I was in Gaza on one occasion I met with the Prime Minister of Gaza, Ismail Haniyeh, the head of Hamas in the territory at that time. There were strong objections from the United Nations based on meeting an official from Hamas. It was the policy of the United Nations not to speak to a leader of Hamas. I ignored this. I was surprised the United Nations tried to pressure me not to meet with the leader of Hamas.

Falk: I did not seek permission from the UN, and the meetings were arranged outside of my itinerary at the initiative of Hamas, and were not reported on in my official presentations at the UN. I do not recall direct objections from the United Nations. There was strong pushback from the Palestinian Authority. They tried to suppress my early reports. They urged me to resign too. They spread some rumours about my non-existent medical problems, which were supposedly preventing me from carrying out the work of the mandate – and a series of other things. My problem resulting from the meetings, which were as I say informal meetings. Unlike John, I did not try to meet the formal leadership in Gaza although I had some friendly and helpful contact during my 2012 visit. I did meet with Mashal, who was, in some ways, at that time, considered the most important Hamas leader, but this happened in Doha where I was a speaker at a conference, and not in any way part of my work as SR. There was a second person in Cairo who was considered, at least, as important as Haniyeh, who was the actual lead administrator in Gaza. The United Nations people accompanying me did not try to interfere with these meetings. Also, it would not be accurate to say that, they encouraged them.

Lynk: I have not had the opportunity to go to Gaza in my capacity as the special rapporteur. I have not met with Hamas nor had to seek a meeting with Hamas. In my dealings with respect to Gaza, I am exclusively dealing with either Israeli or Palestinian civil society organizations. I have not tried to reach out to Hamas.

Falk: In my case, they reached out to me. I did not have to take the initiative. They arranged rather complicated logistical ways of making contact, particularly in Cairo, and in Qatar while I was in Doha.

Jacobsen: John, what was the main focus when entering into the special rapporteur role during tenure?

Dugard: My primary role was that of factfinder. I was the special rapporteur during the Second Intifada. I was, to a large extent, caught up in much of the violence when I visited the occupied Palestinian territories. I attempted to report on what I had seen there. My focus of attention in the West Bank was largely on the construction of settlements and the demolition of houses, especially for political reason. The restrictions of movement were particularly severe during the Second Intifada. When I was in Gaza, there were still Israeli settlements there at the time. I spent a lot of time speaking to Palestinians who had complaints about settlers and talking to people who had been subjected to violence. On one occasion when I visited an UNRWA school in Gaza city I listened to the counselling of young girls whose friends has been shot in one of the many of IDF attacks on Gaza city. My focus was on international humanitarian law in respect of the attacks on civilians and civilian targets, and then, in the West Bank, on settlements and demolition of houses and restriction of people’s movement.

Jacobsen: Richard, when gathering that baton, what was the central focus carrying forward for you?

Falk: It was not much different from John. However, I did not have much occasion for direct witnessing or experiencing conditions on the ground. Similarly to Michael, the way I gathered information was to make comprehensive use of public sources and accessible knowledgeable persons in relation to the main issues in tension. In this period, 2008 to 2014, there were two major military incursions, 2008/09 and 2012, into Gaza. (the 2014 incursion, perhaps the most devastating of the three occurred after my term expired in May), which were very important international developments with all kinds of ramifications for the way in which security was being pursued by Israel, and perceived internationally. After 2005, in Gaza, there was a big dispute as to whether the Israeli disengagement meant Israel no longer was in a position under international humanitarian law of being an occupying state (“Occupying Power”). I tried to address this by agreeing with the international and United Nations consensus that concluded that the idea and implementation of ‘disengagement’ did not alter the status of Israel as the Occupying Power with its attendant legal responsibilities. Elaborate assessments about the degree of effective control Israel exercised over activities both within Gaza and at the border that rigidly regulated the entry and exit of people and goods, as well as exerting direct control over Gaza airspace and access to Gaza from the sea.

So if on balance, the intrusion on the normal existence of the population living in Gaza was greater after this disengagement in 2005, which was mispresented, in my view, to the international community as a step toward peace and the failure to achieve a peaceful relationship with Gaza. It was more like, in my judgment, a flagrant and continuous violation of Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention that unconditionally prohibited ‘collective punishment.’ There were disputes about the rockets. Were the rockets retaliatory? Were the rockets fired at the initiative of Hamas and provocative in that way? Were Israeli responses proportionate and discriminatory? In any event, the indiscriminate firing of rockets and other weapons by both side definitely violated international humanitarian law, but were not a fraction as damaging as the massive incursion of 2008/09 by Israel that led to the “Goldstone Report”; that was a very controversial phase in how to view Israeli and Hamas accountability during that period of the military incursion in 2008/09. I was rather involved with the controversy over the interpretation of the “Goldstone Report.” Again, I had trouble with the Palestinian Authority, which surprised me by objecting to my strong endorsement of the report and encouragement of the implementation of its recommendations. To my surprise and regret the PA was politically persuaded for tactical reasons to bury the report and not seek its implementation; this created problems for me as I was trying to exert what pressure I could, so as to have the recommendations of the report taken seriously. They included a potential reference to the international criminal court, which finally to have occurred ten years later, but still in a preliminary and inconclusive form.

Jacobsen: Michael, in your particular case, the one individual prior to you resigned. So, less of a smooth transition as from John to Richard inasmuch as one can have a “smooth transition” on this issue. Carrying forward on the legacy that they brought forward, what is the main focus now?

Lynk: To start off, my own appointment was controversial. It was raised in the Canadian Parliament. The Minister of Foreign Affairs had made several statements against my appointment. Even though, Canada has nothing to do with the appointment by the United Nations or by the Human Rights Council of the special rapporteur. To my great relief, both Richard and John were extremely supportive of my appointment and gave great advice during the early weeks and months of my appointment, and how to react to that. Also, the way to do the job. Whatever contributions I have made with respect to this, a great deal is owed to both the predecessors with respect to this (Richard and John). With respect to the role as the special rapporteur, there are two themes. One is what happens on the ground, in particular, with the respect to the events beginning in end of March in 2018 with Gaza with the Great March of Return and the shooting deaths of Israel troops at the Gaza frontier, including the shooting and killing of around 60 Palestinians around the middle of May of 2018. At that time, I was calling for the appointment, by the Human Rights Council, of a commission of inquiry. There was a special convening of the Council. At that point in time, after the shooting of the 60 Palestinian protestors, the High Commissioner of Human Rights made the same call. This was accepted.

The Commission of Inquiry released the report in February of 2019, which was a very strong report. I thought it was a very good report. Notwithstanding, the fact, I do not think any of the three commissioners had much of a background with respect to the Middle East about Gaza or the occupied Palestinian territories in general. They repeated the claim in the “Goldstone Report” in 2009 and the “Davis Report” in 2015 about lifting the siege on Gaza. All three reports made this present. The immediately retired Secretary-General of the United Nations made the call to lift the siege on Gaza. None of that has happened. While, I think, you may find polite statements emanating from Europe, there was not effective pressure on Israel by the international community to do anything about the full state of the living conditions in Gaza caused overwhelmingly by the siege. The other point or theme in the work is to try to locate aspects of the occupation and provide them a legal framework within international human rights law and international humanitarian law. My report in October, 2017, dealt with the concept of illegal occupation. At some point, an occupation may be legal. I would leave this to the historians to decide at what point the red line may be crossed. Surely, now, an occupation has been on for five decades with every sign given by the Occupying Power; it intends to annex all or some of the occupied Palestinian territories is surely a violation of international law.

Also, I have issued reports in 2018 on annexation. Both the illegal framework and the events on the ground. Most recently, in October, 2019, I focused on the issue of accountability or the duties owed diplomatically, politically, and, particularly, legally to unite or bring to an end an obvious hotspot with respect to human rights violations. What we see, this is what both Richard and John would have confronted during their tenures as special rapporteurs and continuing into mine. The international community will, sometimes, be willing to make rebukes of Israel’s behaviour or conduct in the occupation, or plans to further entrench in its claim of sovereignty in the occupied Palestinian territories while no willingness to do anything about it. There is criticism without consequences; there are resolutions without rebukes. It always astonishes me. The international community, particularly, with respect to Europe could bring about wide sanctions in regard to Russia and its annexation of Crimea in 2014, but can do nothing and remains paralyzed with respect to a much smaller country and over an issue with worldwide attention. So, this, I think, has become the issue of the day for all of the illegal steps Israel has taken and, now, plans to take; to what degree will the international community, particularly the most powerful players, want to hold Israel to account.

Falk: I want to make one point, which, I think, is important. The focus on the emergent unlawfulness of the occupation. There is a real deficiency in international humanitarian law, which does not put a time limit on the temporal extent of occupation. I argued during my mandate that prolonged occupation is incompatible with the underlying objectives of international humanitarian law. I received very little support for these contentions despite trying my best to get the International Committee of the Red Cross to back a call for reform. The ICRC did not want to touch the international humanitarian law framework, or be seen as engaging with controversial criticisms of Israel’s behavior. It is a real deficiency of the international humanitarian claims made on behalf of the Geneva Conventions. Occupied Palestine has endured five decades or more of occupation reducing the population to a condition of rightlessness and still allow this to remain subject to such an abusive form of militarized administration and, as Michael points out, to be further victimized further by Israel’s annexationist intentions; both de facto annexation by imposing control in a variety of ways, e.g., the settlements, the Wall, and other measures, and, now, a fallacious de jure push for annexation with a strong geopolitical green light given by the United States Trump Administration.

Jacobsen: I want to take this into fewer individuated responses and more groups discussions. What do you consider the main issues confronting Palestine now?

Dugard: I think; we would all agree. The main issue facing Palestine is the very real threat that Israel will annex large portions of the West Bank, a portion of Area C, and the Jordan Valley. We have to focus on this. We must distinguish between de jure annexation, as happened in the case of East Jerusalem and may happen in the case of the West Bank, and de facto annexation. It is really clear that over the last few decades, Israel has, in effect, been extending its authority over the West Bank in such a manner that it has annexed large portions of the West Bank. So, this is the reason for liking Michael’s focus on the illegality of the occupation. It is clear to me that this is not an ordinary occupation. It is one rendered illegal by reason of the prolonged nature of the occupation, as Richard pointed out, and the acts taken by the Israeli government such as the construction of settlements, the Wall, the establishment of the system of apartheid, and, overall, an annexation de facto and de jure of large portions of Palestine. This should be our principal focus at present.

Falk: I would completely agree with the statements by John. I would only add that a secondary focus seems, to me, a recognition of the non-viability of a two-state outcome to any future diplomacy. The extent of de facto annexation and the whole way in which Israel has taken advantage of the occupation makes the prospect of a viable, independent sovereign Palestine state no longer a feasible political project, and it may never have been a desirable solution. This is why I have been emphasizing, since I ended my role as Special Rapporteur, the importance of dismantling the apartheid structures by which the Palestinian people as a whole have been both victimized and subjugated within the occupation and beyond the occupation through fragmentation of their identity as a unified people. So, I participated in a study under the auspices of ESCWA (2017), which examined apartheid in relation to the claim of Israel practices and policies subjugating the entire Palestinian people to an apartheid regime. I know John has some differences with the enlarged view of the relevance of the apartheid analysis. His South African lineage gives him a special authority to talk on it, not only authority, but experience to speak about it. In our academic study for ESCWA, we were convinced that Israel was responsible for deliberate political fragmentation of the Palestinian people as a principle mode of discriminatory subjugation. Unless, apartheid is dismantled as a precondition for racial peace, as was the peacemaking process in South Africa itself. Until the Afrikaner leadership decided to dismantle Apartheid and release Nelson Mandela as a signal of the genuineness of its intention, there was no genuine prospect of reforming this kind of system in some gradualistic way through incremental measures. In other words, thinking constructively about real peace for the two people, for Jews and for Palestinians, it depends, in my judgment, on the centrality of apartheid as an obstacle to a solution more fundamental than even the continuing occupation of the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and Gaza.

Lynk: I may build on it. I may be anticipating something you are going to ask us, Scott, which is the Trump plan. It encapsulates everything that has gone wrong over the last 20-30 years in the making of peace in the Middle East. The Trump plan, in my view, changes everything and changes nothing. It changes everything; in that, it is a crack, a substantial crack, maybe, a fatal crack in the continuation of the Oslo process. That there would be a two-state solution in the end. No matter the difficulties of the international community would have in bringing two recalcitrant leaderships to this. More fundamentally, it changes nothing. It is the formal blessing by the American patron of this peacemaking process of the culmination of separation. What both Richard and John have described as apartheid in the making, it, probably, shows how ineffectual the international community, particularly the most powerful players, have been in trying to hold a flicker of hope. That some strong American bias towards Israel’s position, acting as Israel’s lawyer – as has often been reported, would result in a satisfactory solution for the Palestinians. This is what the Trump plan has brought to an end. It, certainly, appears little hope exists for a two-state solution. The only hope is a one-state apartheid reality or a one-state democratic reality. That’s where, I think, the future is going to lie.

Jacobsen: Some of the remarks by Gideon Levy and Norman Finkelstein have been on a lack of viability of a two-state solution or settlement to the issue or the conflict.

Dugard: Richard remarked on the apparent disagreement on the scope of apartheid. I have always taken the position that if one looks at the definition of apartheid in the Rome Statute, it is a very narrow definition. It would not cover discrimination against Palestinians in Israel itself and in the diaspora because the element of gravity is probably lacking. I am looking at this from the point of view of international criminal law and the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court. Whereas, Richard has looked at this from the broader perspective of apartheid in general. That’s how I see it. It is important to stress that the International Criminal Court has the issue of apartheid before it and the Prosecutor clearly feels uncomfortable with this referral on the part of Palestine. Although, she is clearly prepared to accept jurisdiction, she seems determined to restrict crimes to war crimes and not crimes against humanity, which would include the question of apartheid. The reason for this is, frankly, the West, particularly the European Union, is opposed to the suggestion Israel practices apartheid if only in the occupied Palestinian territories. One has to work hard to persuade the Western states on this score We are facing a situation of apartheid, which is very similar to what happened in South Africa and, in many respects, is worse.

Jacobsen: Any final thoughts on this particular subject matter before the final question?

Falk: I would briefly reiterate my view of the scope of apartheid. Also, the sense that a more imaginative jurisprudence would incorporate the deliberate Israeli policy of fragmentation as a mode of racist subjugation into its understanding of apartheid and, thereby, extend the scope beyond occupation to the various domains within which the Palestinians have suffered, which looked at independently wouldn’t constitute apartheid. However, if you look at the fragmentation of the Palestinians as a whole which is what we did in our ESCWA study, then the fact that the Palestinian minority in Israel does not seem victimized by a compartmentalized view of apartheid, but it is indirectly being victimized to the extent that its national identity is part of a discriminated ethnicity subject to comprehensive repressive control. It is very important to conceptualize apartheid that include this Israeli combination of discriminatory subjugation and fragmentation of all Palestinians, including refugees and involuntary exiles whose identity had previously been existentially actualized as a unity.

Dugard: I agree with you, Richard, entirely. However, the contextualization does not fall under the definition of apartheid in the Rome Statute. That is where the difference lies. I am looking at this from the perspective of the Rome Statute.

Falk: A more sociological jurisprudential interpretation supports my approach. In my view jurists less attached to positivist conceptions of law would have little difficulty arguing that the Rome Statute of the ICC can be interpreted in the way that I favor conceptualizing apartheid.

Dugard: Let us agree to differ and leave it at that.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Falk: Not the first time.

Jacobsen: The final question around the recent update, yesterday, through the International Criminal Court with the Chief Prosecutor Fatou Bensouda around commencing investigations into alleged crimes. Any thoughts on this, concisely?

Lynk: Start with John.

Falk: Maybe, John has the closest familiarity.

Dugard: Scott, I think, we all agree that the fact that the Prosecutor has reaffirmed the reasoning in her request for the pre-trial chamber to exercise her jurisdiction is encouraging. She was not persuaded by other state parties, in particular, as well as some powerful supporters of Israel who made submissions. By and large, I am very encouraged by the developments in the International Criminal Court at present.

Falk: I also feel encouraged by this dramatic development. I have not read the Chief Prosecutor’s response in any careful way. I note, she excludes the exclusive economic zone off the Gaza coast from the territory of Palestine, which seems, to me, to be a questionable interpretation of the responsibilities and rights of a territorial state. It leaves, in a kind of anarchic way, the situation of Palestinian fisherfolk, who fish beyond the territorial waters off Gaza and whose mistreatment by Israeli coastal patrols forms part of the grievances put forward to justify jurisdiction. It may not be the core issue. Yet it is a disappointing way of confining jurisdiction, but less so than the arbitrary refusal of the Prosecutor to include Crimes Against Humanity in her recommendation to open investigations.

Lynk: For me, I am more positive today than two days ago from the perspective of the pre-trial chamber regarding the territorial jurisdiction question. The fact that the Chief Prosecutor made such a strong statement, well-reasoned and very coherent, gives me a lot more optimism that this will turn out successfully. When you think of how few areas there are for accountability presently, there are accountability measures for the CERB. There are accountability measures regarding the database. Although, that is relatively weak with the actions of the International Court of Justice. The most important action would be a positive outcome of the International Criminal Court. This will take a long time to wind its way if the pre-trial chamber agrees with the arguments of the Chief Prosecutor. It does give hope that issues on Palestine and accountability will be positively dealt with by important international forums.

Jacobsen: Gentlemen, thank you for your time.

Lynk: Thank you very much, Scott.

Dugard: Thank you very much, Scott.

Falk: Thanks, Scott.

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Extensive Interview with S. Michael Lynk – (7th) United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/08/04

Professor S. Michael Lynk is the current (7th) United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967 (March, 2016 to Present). He is an Associate Professor at the Faculty of Law, Western University, in London, Ontario, who works in one of the most important legal and investigative positions in the history of rights and law reportage for the United Nations on this issue of Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories. As with the interviews with Professor Richard Falk (5th United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967) and Professor John Dugard (4th United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967), who held the positions prior to Lynk, this became another humbling experience because of the living reality of the human rights abuses Lynk investigates in a professional capacity. Their – Dugard’s, Falk’s, and Lynk’s – importance in the legal and rights history of this subject matter cannot be understated. In many ways, they set the tone and calibre of human rights and international humanitarian law reportage to this day. In addition, this exists as a conversation with the current, as opposed to a former, United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967. He has not been permitted access while the United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967 for first-person analysis of the human rights violations and breaches of international law in Israel and in the occupied Palestinian territories (the Gaza Strip, East Jerusalem, and the West Bank).

Here we talk about why he took this position, the very specialized form of human rights advocacy, what has happened to some in the past in the same position when they tried to get into relevant territories or nations, phrases including “occupied Palestinian territory” or “occupied Palestinian territories,” the Fourth Geneva Convention “Occupying Power” phrase and settler-colonial states, a Canadian national self-critical reflection or examination, United Nations report published on companies in illegal settlements, a short-term economic benefit from business finances and goods coming from Israeli settlement businesses, a trust or hope rather than stepwise extension of a solution, countries with settler-colonial histories, moves being made by the Chief Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court (Fatou Bensouda), the unlivability of the Gaza Strip in which 2,000,000 live, a global pandemic, attempts to simplify the entire Israeli-Palestinian issue or the entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict to religion, advice given by Richard Falk and John Dugard, appropriate responses to both of those charges, the alliance of Benny Gantz of the Blue and White Party and Benjamin Netanyahu of the Likud, some of the violations that we’re seeing from Fatah, Hamas, or the Palestinian Authority, terms from Israel including “terror tunnels,” “Iron Dome, or “rockets,” the reality on the ground of the efficacy of the Iron Dome for Israel, etc., the “hugging” of international law, and some of the more robust authoritative organizations, authors, or speakers on the Israeli-Palestinian issue.

*Interview conducted on April 6, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: This is the second U.N. Special Rapporteur interview, S. Michael Lynk. Let’s start with the length of time that you have been in this position, and why you took this position, I ask because this position has a checkered history in what comes at people when they do this very specialized form of human rights advocacy.

Professor S. Michael Lynk: I was voted unanimously to the position by the U.N. Human Rights Council in March of 2016. It is a 6-year unpaid position. So, I keep my day job as a Law Professor at Western University’s Faculty of Law, where I teach Labour Law and Constitutional Law. I will have been in the position for exactly four years on May 1, which is when the position officially started. As part of my work, I draft two substantive reports each year. I deliver them to the Human Rights Council in Geneva, Switzerland. I deliver the second to the U.N. General Assembly in New York, the Third Standing Committee of the General Assembly in New York. My reports are usually on specific themes. My report in 2019 in New York was on the issue of accountability and the responsibility of the international community to confront Israel with respect to its serial violations of human rights. My report in March 2019, a year ago, was on the Israeli exploitation of water and natural resources in the occupied Palestinian territories, which are forbidden to be done by an Occupying Power. I choose specific themes. I try to rely on work both the U.N. does, and work done by civil society. I have to say; my work is made an awful lot easier by the top-drawer civil society organizations, human rights organizations, that exist both in Israel and in Palestine, and internationally. Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, activists and organizations in Europe, and human rights defenders – both Israelis and Palestinians, produce excellent reports, high-level advocacy. I sit on their shoulders in being able to write my reports to the international community.

Jacobsen: What has happened to some in the past in the same position when they tried to get into relevant territories or nations in the area to make sure that they can get the most accurate feel for the areas that they’re doing human rights reportage on?

Lynk: Sure, my prior two predecessors as Special Rapporteur; both were denied access by Israel into the occupied Palestinian territories. Richard Falk flew into Israel with an understanding that he was being permitted to enter and to go through a week or two-week long schedule visiting the occupied Palestine territories. He was arrested and detained overnight and sent back to North America. The same thing happened with my immediate predecessor. An Indonesian, Makarim Wibisono, who took the position with the presumption that Israelis would let him in. He resigned after 20 months because the Israelis would not let him in, and did not fulfill their promise. So, I’ve been obstructed in the ability to do my work. I think I would be able to do a better job if I was able to be let in and meet with Palestinians and Israelis, and with Israeli governments and with the Palestinian Authority as well, to do my work. But if I am not allowed in, as I am not, I have a pretty decent Plan B, which is to rely on the top-drawer work being done by civil society with their work and analyses, when I issue reports, commentary, and press releases on Israel and more specifically the occupied Palestinian territory.

Jacobsen: Following from the last phrase, “occupied Palestinian territory” or “occupied Palestinian territories,” as well as one of the earlier phrases “Occupying Power,” what is the contextualizations for those terms, for those who may not know when reading this?

Lynk: It is an important question that you ask. The world community has, since the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and Gaza Strip, among other territories, were occupied by Israel in the June 1967 war. The international community reflected through the United Nations has been very clear. In that, the Fourth Geneva Convention applies to these territories. The Fourth Geneva Convention is, of 1949, designed to protect civilians under occupied territory. It learned from the bitter lessons of the first and second world wars. That there has to be a detailed codified regime that spells out the extensive responsibilities that an Occupying Power has when they take a territory, not their own sovereign territory. These kinds of responsibilities focus on a range of issues. But the most important issue reflected in the Fourth Geneva Convention and in international humanitarian law is that an Occupying Power is ​s​imply a temporary sovereign over the territory. It gives the Occupying Power no right to annex even a square inch of the territory occupied. It must return the territory in as reasonable and as speedy a time as possible back to the people who are being occupied.

So, when we examine the very strict measures outlined in international humanitarian law and the Fourth Geneva Convention to how Israel has conducted its occupation. The international community has been very clear. There has been a range of violations of fundamental tenets of international law, including, obviously, the transfer or encouragement of civilian populations, Israeli-Jewish civilian populations, to settle in settlements in East Jerusalem and the West Bank and once upon a time in Gaza as well. Israel has annexed East Jerusalem and parts of the West Bank in 1967 and reaffirmed that in 1980. The annexation of East Jerusalem is illegal under international law. An Occupying Power cannot do that. The creation of 240 or so settlements in East Jerusalem or the West Bank, where approximately 650,000 to 680,000 Israeli settlers now live is illegal under international law. In fact, it has been a war crime for the last 20 years under the 1998 Rome Statute, which set up the International Criminal Court. The conduct of its occupation such as diverting water from the West Bank into Israel’s water resources, building quarries in the West Bank, using West Bank land to dump sewage and other environmental waste, the range of human rights violations through curfews, through the unequal treatment of Palestinians under occupation. There is a range of different violations that the international community, primarily through the United Nations have been identifying, those are the responsibilities given to me during my tenure as a Special Rapporteur: to comment on, to issue reports on, to investigate to the best of my ability, and to work with civil society and universities, and other international organizations to bring these human rights violations to an end.

Jacobsen: Some commentary will focus on the settler-colonialism. In the sense that, Israel will be defined, as per the Fourth Geneva Convention “Occupying Power” phrase, as a settler-colonial state. That’s a larger context and terminological issue of settler-colonialism. One of the ironies when colonialism was being discredited in the ‘30s and ‘40s. This was a time when Israel was formally being defined by its formal geographic boundaries and instantiated and then was passed off from the British to the United Nations, not necessarily in the cleanest of ways [Laughing]. So, this makes it one of the longest-standing human rights issues for the bureaucratic juggernaut known as the United Nations. Is this one of the last remnants of settler-colonialism from the 20th-century into the 21st?

Lynk: I am aware of the literature that talks about Israel being a settler-colonial society or a settler-colonial state. I’ve read a variety of commentary that, obviously, dates that beginning with the Balfour Declaration continuing to today. Certainly, wherever else that debate may lead us with Israel before 1967, Israel’s creation of settlements, colonies. The settlement and the encouragement of them, this has to be the biggest economic enterprises initiated by Israel. The creation of the 240 settlements in East Jerusalem and the West Bank, maintaining them, sustaining them, growing them. This would be a classic example of settler-colonialism. Settler-colonialism is the movement of people from the metropole, from usually a European nation. Although, in this case, it comes within Israel into the conquered or colonialized territory. In order [Laughing] not to benefit the Indigenous people being displaced, but in order to establish a colonial sovereign claim or an independent sovereign claim over that territory, certainly, when you look at the patterns of Dutch and British settlement in South Africa, British settlement in Rhodesia and in other parts of Africa, Spanish settlement in Latin and South America, these differ in some ways from what’s going on since 1917, particularly 1967. But I think there probably are different branches of the same tree going on. Certainly, I know in the academic literature on settler-colonialism. Israel’s settlement of colonies in East Jerusalem and the West Bank is commonly referred to as a classic modern example of a 20th-century problem that was, by and large, done and resolved in the 20th-century to allow colonies to become independent nations. You’re certainly right with respect to your location of timelines. Just at a time when decolonization was sweeping the world, particularly in the Caribbean, in Africa, and in Asia, in the 1960s and 1970s, Israel was launching upon a colonization project by initiating these settlements within a few months after it conquered the territories in the June, 1967 war.

Jacobsen: In terms of some of some of the war crimes, and the violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention mentioned before, how, as a national self-critical reflection or examination, is Canada complicit in this?

Lynk: There was once a quote from an unnamed – never got the name – Liberal Cabinet Minister who said, ‘We would aspire to be Israel’s best friend. We realize someone else has that title. I would be quite happy to be Israel’s second-best friend.’

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Lynk: Certainly, our policy since the 1940s with having a Canadian, the first dean of my law school actually, Ivan Rand, sitting on the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine in 1947, which recommended the partition of a very small country. Not only was the partition against the wishes of the majority Indigenous population at the time, it was also, even on the elements of partition, a very unfair partition with a third of the population assigned 56% of the territory, including some of the very best agricultural land and, certainly, most of the coastline. From Canada’s initial support in 1947, through Ivan Rand’s participation on the UNSCOP committee, to the 1947 vote in November of that year and Canada’s vote in favour of partition, to its early recognition of Israel, through or since 1967. Canada has been articulating a 15-year statement, it believes there should be a Palestinian and Israeli state. It believes in a two-state solution. It believes that there should be a Palestinian and Israeli state. That annexation and settlements are against the Fourth Geneva Convention and against international law. It won’t agree to any change in the boundaries, except for those agreed to by the parties. That statement is actually quite good.

But when you compare this to the Canadian actions, whether the United Nations General Assembly every year in the basket of resolutions that come up to vote every December by every Member (State) of the United Nations or others. Canada, beginning with Paul Martin’s regime, certainly, intensified under Stephen Harper and really left unchanged under Justin Trudeau. Our voting record has been to vote in a very tiny minority in 6 to 9 nations.

Jacobsen: Right.

Lynk: Israel, the United States, sometimes the Czech Republic, Canada, and then a handful of the island (Member) States in the Pacific that were once ruled by the United States: the Marshall Islands, for example, or Vanuatu. These countries are a very small minority who end up voting “No” to these resolutions. Even though, these resolutions offer a fair, balanced approach to wanting to solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in a manner that is consistent with international law. When our former Foreign Secretary, Minister of Foreign Affairs Chrystia Freeland, made an official visit to Israel in November of 2018, she spoke to the Israeli Council on Foreign Relations, a very prestigious body. Prime ministers, presidents, top diplomats, top academics, who are routinely invited to speak to that council. She delivered an address in Israel. It is a matter of public record, where she spoke about the relations between Israel and Canada. She was only a few kilometres from occupied Palestinian territory. She never used the word “occupation,” never criticized Israel for its settlement policy, or for its annexation. She was very brief in her speech, in the delivery of her speech, with respect a two-state solution. Essentially, what foreign ministers over the past 17 to 18 years have said in Canada, Conservative and Liberal alike, is to urge the parties to go back to the negotiating table. That’s the only solution they say.

It will not be achieved through the International Court of Justice (ICJ) or through the International Criminal Court (ICC), or through votes in the United Nations. It has always struck me as very similar to a policeman at a complaint entry desk at a police station having a battered woman, a battered wife, come in to complain about the beating that she is receiving from her husband or partner and asking for police action, and the police asking her to go back and settle things by herself. It has the very same ring to it. I think, in many ways, when Canada says it is a defender of human rights. That it believes in a global-based, rules-based system. That is standing by international law as a means to resolve international conflicts. It has a blind spot when it comes to Israel-Palestine. That, when it was meaningfully meant, it was going to apply international law. It would not have signed a new free trade agreement with Israel in the last 15 months, which did not have a human rights clause in it. Unlike, the European free trade agreement with Israel. It would not allow Israeli settlement goods to enter into the Canadian market as if it were Israeli goods. Those are two examples of the assistance Canada winds up giving to Israel, winds up deepening the occupation, not helping it to redirect on a path that will bring the occupation to a complete end.

Jacobsen: A United Nations report was published on companies in settlements, illegal settlements. 188 were reviewed. 112 met the criteria for inclusion in the formal database. Some consider this a conservative database. Nonetheless, it is coming from the United Nations Human Rights Council. So, it is coming from a reliable, authoritative, international human rights body. Canada was not in that listing. Ones that were: Luxembourg, the United States, the United Kingdom. Israel with 94 of the companies, naturally. What is the importance of such a database? What, in practical terms, can be done?

Lynk: Sure, think of it this way, the issue that we have with Israel and Palestine is not a lack of international law. International law has been pronounced by the International Court of Justice, the United Nations Security Council, the United Nations General Assembly, among other bodies for years and years with respect to the violations of international law that is going on predominantly by Israel in its conduct of the occupation. The issue is not the lack of international law. The issue is the lack of international accountability. When we think of the mechanisms we have presently, the countermeasures the international community could use; that’s available to it, in order to bring Israel back into line with international law and to end the occupation. There hasn’t been that many initiated. Those that have been initiated have been by primarily the Palestinians themselves. The data is one. The International Criminal Court proceedings are an important second part or accountability measure. The database is important because it sheds a spotlight on the settlement economy. We know, given Israel’s small size, heavy dependence upon international trade, that if the international community was serious about its pronouncements on international law and their application to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It could with effective use of countermeasures, particularly economic or diplomatic countermeasures; Israel would very quickly realize that the international community meant what it had been saying all along and bring the occupation to an end. I see the database as one small step.

If we shed a spotlight on the companies, Israeli and international companies, involved in furthering the entrenchment of the settlement economy and then international action is taken to consider sanctions against those companies, prohibitions against those companies, boycotts against those companies, then we will have done a great deed towards slowly reversing the entrenchment of the settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. I think you’re right regarding the database. I don’t think the database had a broad enough mandate in terms of the companies that you could wind up looking at. To name a couple of examples, there is a major German company, Heidelberg Construction, which has a number of quarries in the West Bank for housing materials. They are meant for housing developments in the settlements (West Bank and East Jerusalem) and for housing and construction in Israel itself. Heidelberg was not mentioned in the database. There are two Israeli companies, which operate wineries in the West Bank: Psagott and Shiloh. They, among other places, ship their settlement wines into Canada tariff-free under the free trade agreement as products of Israel. There is presently litigation ongoing in the federal court, in the Federal Court of Appeal, seeking to mandate that those settlement products coming into Canada, namely the settle wines, should be labelled as products of Israeli settlements, not Israel. The Canadian government is leading the litigation to defend the practice of allowing these goods to come in tariff-free with the label “Products of Israel.”

This probably gives you an indication of where Canada lies in terms of drawing a line in the sand. My most recent report calls for – and I will call for – is the international community to focus on accountability measures. I think the database is an important first step. It has to be continued. It has to be a living tool. It has to be properly resourced financially and staff-wise. It has to have a broader mandate, so it can look at any significant contributor to the settlement economy to be able to give out an accurate economic picture of foreign and Israeli companies; that is giving economic oxygen to the Israeli settlements.

Jacobsen: By analogy, if individuals want to relieve some anxiety or gain some temporary pleasure, they will take a toke of the cigarette. They will smoke in spite of the warning labels on the package. Similarly, if a short-term economic benefit from business finances and goods coming from Israeli settlement businesses, illegal settlement businesses, are these statements on the packaging, in practical terms, effective? Will they just be ignored?

Lynk: That’s up to civil society to determine. If Israeli wines coming in from the settlements have a more accurate label on them in terms of their origin, then civil society’s next step is to bring to attention discerning wine connoisseurs as to the political problems of buying Israeli settlement wine. Certainly, that worked – you’re not old enough to know this, but this worked 35 years ago with respect to South African wines. Many wine connoisseurs like South African wines. Once it was pointed out what they contributed to, the installment of the Apartheid regime in South Africa, we first boycotted them. They wound up not being allowed into Canada. As a constitutional law professor, I finished teaching my class several cases with respect to the constitutionality and government legislation requiring mandatory health warnings on tobacco products.

We don’t probably give enough credit. But the effect of the work done by any tobacco activist over the last 35 or so years to bring health warnings into society with respect to what it means to consume tobacco products. We have significantly cut the use of tobacco in Canadian society in a substantial fashion. In part, not because we banned cigarettes, but because we introduced significant healthcare measures together with the banning of tobacco advertising, and putting graphic warnings on tobacco products, over time, they all had a significant impact, significant positive impact, on the levels of Canadians who wound up smoking. That was a major governmental effort to try to bring down smoking rates. It will have to be left to civil society on Israeli products coming into Canada from Israeli settlements. But if we get the proper labelling on the wines, it opens the door for civil society to begin to take positive action around settlement products coming into Canada.

Jacobsen: I see a split there. On the one hand, civil society comes in national forms described before. So, that’s one example. We have evidence of it. ​​ International, we’re talking civil society in terms of a lot more countries. That’s a massive scaling of that type of solution to this. It is a statement, basically, based on trust or hope rather than, maybe, a kind of stepwise extension of that kind of solution.

Lynk: When you do polling of Canadians, or polling of Americans as well, you’ll find, certainly in Canada, a significant degree of Canadians expressing the sympathy of the Palestinian aspiration to self-determination and a significant proportion of Canadians expressing criticism towards Israeli policy towards occupied Palestinian territories. That’s not reflected in elite government opinion in what our government ends up doing. I think there is a latent empathy or a sympathy towards the injustice going on in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. What we need is more mobilization in civil society and civil society organizations that would in Canada ensure that we hold governments to account with respect to their policies towards Israel and Palestine, certainly, that’s what you see in Europe. I am impressed with activists in some of the countries that I deal with, say in Belgium, or in the Netherlands, or in Ireland, or in Great Britain, with respect to their influence on high-level political and diplomatic decision-making with respect to Israel and Palestine. Certainly, they are more effective than we are in Canada. They even have large “C” “Conservative” governments more willing to criticize Israeli settlements in the occupied territories than the Canadian government.

Jacobsen: Do countries with settler-colonial histories – New Zealand, Australia, the United States, Canada – harbour the possibility, as they, at least, develop some reconciliation efforts – New Zealand has done more than the other three? Could this then potentially be an extension from the sympathy you’re noting in some of the survey data towards the Palestinians and, maybe, a change of policy at elite levels?

Lynk: One can be hopeful. The fact that in New Zealand, as you point, and we’re going through the early parts of the conversation for the last 5 or 10 years here in Canada. There’s a greater recognition that we are a settler-colonial population. I hear terms, particularly when I hear Indigenous leaders in Canada talk about the history and politics today that they’re confronting, about the settler-colonial background or the harms of colonialism. In a way, the people who are interviewing them, generally white, do not challenge them anymore. We have moved the needle in Canada on the hugely adverse impact European colonialization had on the Indigenous population and continues to have today. At some point, I would like to think that as we make stronger and stronger links here in Canada between European settlement and Indigenous populations and the harms done to the Indigenous populations; that we will make the same parallels with respect to European colonization in Palestine in the first part of the 20th century and the harm done there to the Palestinian population, and particularly with respect to the harm being done to the Palestinians in the occupied territory since 1967.

Jacobsen: What is the status at present of the moves being made by the Chief Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, Fatou Bensouda? How are things proceeding?

Lynk: Right now, we are at an interesting stage. She is finished her preliminary review. She thinks there is enough evidence to move forward with a formal war crimes investigation, into the Israeli conduct in the 2014 war on Gaza with respect to the Israeli shooting of largely unarmed Palestinians since March, 2018 at the Gaza frontier, with respect to the settlements, and with respect to the conduct by Hamas and other armed groups within Gaza in shooting rockets into populated Israeli civilian areas. She said there is one procedural question, the jurisdictional question, which needs to be answered by the pre-trial chamber. It is about whether Palestine is a state for the purposes of the 1998 Rome Statute in order to be able to join the Rome Statute and to be able to initiate a request for an investigation of war crimes committed in occupied Palestinian territory. Because of the coronavirus, there has been a delay in the submission of various written arguments to the pre-trial chamber. So, what we were hoping for was an answer by May, it may well be delayed into the Summer. But there is a hope that it will be the Summer when the pre-trial chamber may issue a ruling on the jurisdictional question.

If it rules in favour of what the Chief Prosecutor has asked for, i.e., there is jurisdiction at the International Criminal Court to investigate. Then it will proceed to the formal investigation stage. If she says at some point down the road, “I have enough evidence to proceed to trial. We’re going to charge these individuals.” Remember, the International Criminal Court’s focus is on individual war crimes, not states. If she says, “I will identify these military leaders, militia leaders, or political leaders.” Then it will proceed to the third and final stage, which is trials before the International Criminal Court. That’s the other major accountability measure actively in place at the present time. Certainly, I think it will have military and political leaders worried in Israel. Certainly, Israel has been trying to coordinate, the government of Israel has been trying to coordinate, its reaction to the Chief Prosecutor’s stance towards the United States. The United States, presently, has made it very clear. Even though, it is not a member of the International Criminal Court; that it will do what it can do to thwart the ongoing proceedings involving the Palestinian complaint against Israel. To me, what is going on at the International Criminal Court, perhaps, at the moment, the most important accountability measure. We won’t be expecting the cavalry coming in from the General Assembly [Laughing] or from the Security Council to bring a positive end to the occupation.

It will have to come from the Palestinians themselves on the international diplomatic and judicial front and/or by civil society organizations, such as the launch, in Canada, of the wine labelling case. Those are the kinds of initiatives that we wind up needing to hold Israel up to the full extent possible for its ongoing defiance of international law and international consensus.

Jacobsen: Even if all of these measures are put in place, come to fruition, e.g., labelling of goods in the wine case, the court case going through the charging of particular individuals through Fatou Bensouda at the International Criminal Court, more reportage with more straightforward commentary with shooting at the kneecaps of journalists, medical personnel, civilians, children, and so on, there have been reports, for some​ ​time, at least 2015, probably earlier, about the unlivability of the Gaza Strip in which 2,000,000 live. Is there enough time even if these are put in place for some form of sustainable dignified livelihood?

Lynk: Gaza, in 2012, the United Nations released a report raising the question as to whether Gaza would be livable by 2020. We are there now. It released a subsequent report in 2017 on Gaza, saying, ‘Almost all of the social and economic and health markers had gotten worse since 2012.’ So here we are, 2020, I think, probably, somebody could make a very good argument that Gaza has become rather unlivable. No, there isn’t starvation there. Yes, there probably would be hunger and starvation if it weren’t for the international community. The money support from UNRWA’s operations. Money coming in from Qatar. Money coming in from the European Union. The money coming in from Turkey, which just built a brand-new hospital in Gaza. These are all important humanitarian gestures, but these are not bringing the Gazan-Palestinians any closer to salt land. They are keeping its head above water and not allowing it to go underwater with respect to this. Gaza has a collapsing healthcare system. It has regular supplies of power for only 10 to 14 hours per day. It has among the very highest unemployment rates of any economic unit that the World Bank winds up following. That’s despite having a fairly well-educated population, particularly well-educated younger population. It is ruled by Hamas with other Palestinian militias there, which are cruel and wind up ignoring human rights issues – have serious human rights violations of their own. But the primary issue has to be the almost 13-year-old massive blockade that Israel imposes on the Gaza Strip. It blockades Gaza by land, by sea, and by air. Nothing and nobody gets in, and nothing and nobody gets out of Gaza, except without Israeli permission.

That means with a collapsing healthcare system. Palestinians who are too sick to get care in Gaza, e.g., may get sick from cancer, have to seek permission from the Israelis to travel from Gaza to Palestinian hospitals in East Jerusalem or the West Bank to wind up dealing with those particular issues. Israel has had a recent record documented by the World Health Organization that it winds up denying a significant number of those applications. I believe the year was 2017, may have been 2018. But there were 54 Palestinians from Gaza who had applied to have travel permission from the Israelis to go to Palestinian hospitals in East Jerusalem or the West Bank who needed treatment and winded up dying. It is impossible to say whether their lives would have been lengthened had they received permission to go. But certainly, it is an indictment that those people couldn’t go in the first place when they, obviously, were making applications based on the fairly serious nature of their health. There has been an inability of Palestinians in Gaza to import high-tech machinery to conduct some of the high-level healthcare. Because the Israelis would refuse to allow some of the healthcare equipment in because it may be used for “dual-use.” It may have a military use as well. So, the Palestinian hospitals are not only relatively ill-equipped due to a shortage of doctors and nurses, but also ill-equipped due to a shortage of equipment to do diagnostics. Equipment to do radiation. Drugs to do a wide variety of health treatments. Basic health equipment, as well, such as gauzes and masks. These have all, at one time or another, been in short supply in Gaza in recent years in large part due to the blockade and the need to obtain Israeli permission for every single item that winds up coming into Gaza.

Jacobsen: Also, we’re in the midst, based on the World Health Organization statement, of a global pandemic. Something comparable, apparently, to the Spanish Flu of 1918/1919. In other words, this is a once-in-a-century occurrence. It is surprising to many, but ongoing. This is SARS-CoV-2 giving symptoms of COVID-19 or C-19. With this verge of collapse or extraordinarily inadequate healthcare system situation for the Palestinians in general, if SARS-CoV-2 does spread in the occupied Palestinian territories, what would be a predictable outcome?

Lynk: Sure, keep in mind, we talk about the occupied Palestinian territories. We’re talking about three different geographic areas ruled by three different authorities and have three different standards of living. But all of them all well, well, well below the Israeli standard of living: Gaza, East Jerusalem, and the West Bank. There are hospitals in East Jerusalem. There are hospitals in the West Bank. They can give care comparable to a lower-middle-income country. They don’t have the budgetary resources or the staff resources, or the equipment resources, to handle a large-scale pandemic. If COVID-19 ends up getting a deep grip into West Bank society, things are even worse in Gaza, where the annual per capita income the West Bank would be somewhere, probably, in the range of $3,000 or more than $3,000 per year American. It is probably a little more than $1,000 in Gaza and has been declining over the last number of years, ever since the blockade was imposed. The big worry, in Gaza, is the 2,000,000 with a small stretch of land with an entirely inadequate healthcare system that is extraordinarily under-resourced. That, in terms of the specifics of COVID-19, the inability to be able to test, let alone effectively treat, let alone effectively isolate, let alone have enough ICU beds, that would wind up managing a crisis if there was a stampede going to the hospitals. Gaza has had weeks and weeks of preparation.

Keep this in mind, the international community still considers Gaza to be occupied territory. Even though, Israelis, actually, left or moved its army more than 15 years ago. It is still occupied territory. Israel still has a number of responsibilities under the Fourth Geneva Convention, including significant health responsibilities to ensure that epidemics don’t take hold and that there is a satisfactory level of healthcare provided to the people there. That means Israel would have responsibilities that there are adequate treatment facilities there, adequate drugs, adequate materials such as gloves and masks, and of other forms of equipment and, maybe, even ensuring that there are adequate numbers of staff who are there to, maybe, respond to COVID-19, should it take hold in Gaza. So, the worries, I have read a fair amount on COVID-19 and Gaza. All of them are expressing concern or alarm as to what would happen there. It hasn’t happened yet. But we do know COVID-19 doesn’t obey boundaries. We know the persons with COVID-19 have already appeared in Gaza. All we can do is hold our breath and make sure that it doesn’t find itself entrenched in there. Also, that pushes Gaza and the international community to make sure there are enough people and medical goods to deal with COVID-19 should it attack Gaza.

Jacobsen: Some of the secular community, in spite of ​that is ​all said and in other interviews and in publications over decades, attempt to simplify the entire Israeli-Palestinian issue or the entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict to religion. This seems, if I am frank​,​ extremely ignorant​​ and​…​ other things. When talking to Richard Falk, who held the position before, as we both know, he speaks of a notion of “biblical entitlement” as part of the issue. What role does religion or even biblical entitlement play in this overall issue?

Lynk: I think he is probably correct in the identification of that term. Certainly, Jews who have been part of the movement to Israel and the establishment of the state of Israel and the occupation after 1967. Some Israeli-Jews have used religion as a justification that the Bible is a form of real estate deed to be able to claim sovereignty over the mandate Palestine and, perhaps, beyond those boundaries. At the end of the day, I think religion winds up being a smokescreen or an argument to use, but what is fundamentally at work here is human rights and the denial of human rights. I remember when I first became aware of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict when I was going to McGill for graduate work in the mid- to late-1970s. I encountered young, very liberal American Jews studying at McGill in those days who were joining committees in support of Palestinians. To me, that was an eye-opener. It was an astonishing revelation that this wasn’t a struggle over ethnicity, ultimately. It wasn’t a struggle over religion. If young American Jews could wind up thinking through the particular issue and identify what was missing as the bottom-line harbinger of conflict was, then it was a struggle over rights. Then it seemed to me anybody could wind up identifying that. Certainly, I feel reinforced by that today in my role as Special Rapporteur when I deal with progressive and liberal Israeli organizations and individuals who wind up spending a large part of their professional life or their personal life agitating against the occupation and wanting to seek some kind of just, fair, equitable settlement based on international law and based on mutual respect between Israelis and Palestinians. Let’s face it, there are approximately 13,000,000 predominantly Israeli Jews and Palestinian Arabs, Muslim and Christian, who live between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. Neither is going anywhere.

The only long-term hope for any of them is to find a way of living equitably under the rule of law with a deep respect for human rights and a finding a way of developing a constitutional order, whether a two-state or a democratic one-state, for them to live in prosperity and harmony with one another. I think when there finally is a respect for human rights in Israeli society, in Palestinian society, and between Israelis and Palestinians; you have the basis for a cooperative society or a cooperative two societies living either with each other or side-by-side each other. It would probably be a model for the rest of the Middle East. That’s where my hope winds up going to, probably because I am so immersed in the issue of human rights. I see that as a primary issue that supersedes what religious differences there are and what ethnic issues there wind up being. Because at the end of the day, in a world that’s divided by religion, by class, by ethnicity, it is a human-made phenomenon, human rights and international law, that have the best chance of bringing us together. International rights and international relations, the spine of these are international law. The heart of this international law is international human rights law and international humanitarian law. If those wind up being respected and wind up putting curbs on avaricious behaviour on either Palestinians or Israelis, then they have a chance of finding themselves in an orderly, equitable, and just society or just societies. That will learn to use whatever tensions are between them in a cooperative and positive way rather than in an almost entirely negative way as it is right now.

Jacobsen: Some of the advice given to you, prior to entering the position, from others who held the position before, e.g., Richard Falk and John Dugard, etc. They mentioned one thing in particular, which is to be fearless. Why?

Lynk: [Laughing] They, actually, said two things to me. I would be curious where you found that.

Jacobsen: One was fearless. The other one was to make sure that, basically, what you say is as robustly substantiated as possible.

Lynk: Right, that was given to me by Richard Falk. Richard said to me. It’s the best. He and John Dugard gave me lots of words of very wise advice. But the best advice of all was to be fearless on the one hand. That I should stand up for human rights when I see them violated. That I should be outspoken in my defence and my advocacy for that. But he said the other thing was to be responsible. In that, to make sure that when you make a criticism or make a defence of human rights, I’m basing it on well-documented events and evidence. That I can back up what I wind up saying. That’s the best advice for a whole range of different things that you want to do in life that Richard wound up giving me. When I sit down to write a report, to give a press statement, to sit down to speak to governments, to sit down with civil society organizations, or other academics with respect to my work as Special Rapporteur, “fearless” and “responsible” govern virtually everything that I wind up saying.

Jacobsen: In terms of the responsibility and in terms of the fearlessness, granted, many have come before. Many have come under a lot of pressure. I’m sure. We’re both aware of several cases on that front. To those who document human rights violations and advocate human rights violations, in this particular issue, if someone critiques Israeli policy as a violation of international human rights or of international humanitarian law, they can be charged as an anti-Semite. In other words, they are given the charge of anti-Semitism. Or if someone is not of Jewish background, they have an Arab background. Then they can have a charge of being biased because of having an Arab background. What are the appropriate responses to both of those charges?

Lynk: I think it is to hug international law as much as possible. I am not saying this just because I am a lawyer. Because there are many people who do very good work on law, international law, with respect to Israel and Palestine who are not lawyers, but who understand the legal framework is the one common human-made platform that we’ve all wound up creating; that every country, at least on paper, is committed to wind up obeying and putting into practice. If you can show that you are operating from international law, and in particular human rights law and humanitarian law, you apply that in the analysis that you wind up conducting on Israel-Palestine. Then you end up putting yourself in as irreproachable a position as you can with respect to the inevitable criticism that will come back. John Dugard has been heavily criticized for his claim for apartheid. Boy, there are not many people on the planet, given his background (South African), who would know better what apartheid looks like than him. Richard Falk, particularly Richard Falk perhaps, because he is Jewish as well as a phenomenal human rights lawyer and scholar. He gets inevitably attacked for his views and because he is probably seen as defying organized Jewish community – not consensus because the Jewish community in Canada, the United States, and elsewhere (in particular on Israel and Palestine) – and institutions have been fierce in their criticism of him. [Laughing] I can only imagine how much that winds up hurting. Myself, I was criticized when I was first given this appointment by the current government, the new liberal government in Canada by the Foreign Minister.

Jacobsen: Also, this is in spite of unanimous voting from the United Nations Human Rights Council.

Lynk: Look, I wouldn’t have taken this position without knowing what the blowback could potentially be. I am not naïve to wind up thinking that you could criticize Israeli practices in the occupied territories without some people have a strong contrary view to who you are, what you’re saying, and what your motivations may wind up being. As long as I can attach myself to excellent Palestinian civil society and Israeli civil society, and international civil society reports and advocacy on this, as long as I can document my critical commentary with respect to the growth of the settlements, with the rise of annexation in the air, with respect to the lack of accountability being demonstrated by the international community towards Israeli practices, and base that all on what we commonly agree is out litmus test – international human rights law and international humanitarian law, then I have gotten thicker skin, certainly, in the last four years, but I can wind up living with what I wind up putting up. Obviously, I want to find language that will get the greatest number of people to pay attention to what I am writing. I try to do that. But I also try to do this in a manner that doesn’t downplay the very real patterns of human rights violations that are ongoing there. They have to be called out in that way.

I am lucky. Certainly, when I go to Europe, when I go to Geneva to the United Nations, or New York and meet people from the United Nations, doors open for me. I get to meet high ranking diplomats, civil society organizations, and top scholars, with respect to this. I get fairly prominent platforms to speak at universities and through the media on this. It’s a wonderful privilege that I have to be able to do this. But as we find out a few minutes ago, I get to do this. I try to be as fearless [Laughing] and responsible for putting forth what I think is the truth and the stance of international law to examine Israeli practices and, sometimes, Palestinian practices as well.

Jacobsen: Israel had an election.

Lynk: Had many elections [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing] Right, I was about to say, “Another election.” A surprise to many was the alliance, coalition, joining of Benny Gantz of the Blue and White Party and Benjamin Netanyahu of the Likud. Also, the Joint List had more seats than ever before with 15 out of 12, which is 2 more than before. What is the stance of this new partnership on oPt?

Lynk: If you’d asked me last week, and if you ask me a week from now, the politics in Israel seem exceptionally fluid, even more than regular Israeli politics.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Lynk: All I can say, as to the latest of what I’ve wound up reading; Benny Gantz has been tempted into a coalition government with Benjamin Netanyahu. It split his own party. It split the other minor Jewish party on the left, which is the coalition between the Labour Party and Meretz. Where two members, I believe, of the Labour Alliance are going over into the government as well, the issue, right now, seems to be everyone using the argument, ‘Oh, we need an emergency national government because of the COVID-19 challenge to Israeli society.’ But, certainly, Prime Minister Netanyahu is saying, ‘As a condition for joining the government, you have to agree to some form of annexation coming up. It was part of my promises in the last 3 elections. Certainly, it is within my own party and the parties right of Likud. They all expect annexation measures to be taken for this coalition government.’ Who wouldn’t expect that? He not only has his own 58 seats all expecting annexation. But certainly, there are annexation drives by other parties to the left of Netanyahu that were elected. Also, he has the American government on the annexation side as well. We will see in the next couple of days what the ongoing negotiations are to complete a government.

There are subtle issues still left to be resolved. But the pressure from the Israeli right, which is substantial – has a substantial size in the Israeli Knesset – is saying, ‘Look, we may not have this chance again for the next foreseeable future, where with an American president who has endorsed a plan named after him, substantial annexation of parts of the West Bank for all of the Israeli settlements, all or almost all of the Jordan Valley. After January 2021, we cannot waste this singular opportunity to be able to go forth and annex.’ My sense is how Benjamin is a much more skilled political operator than Benny Gantz, than any Israeli politician in government now. We are getting very close to annexation now. That’s what I am expecting will be the final core in the agreements among all the different parties. I know one thing is who gets what Cabinet post. The policies that will guide this government over the next 18 to 24 months; I would be surprised if immediate annexation was not part of the agreement.

Jacobsen: What about the oPt side? What are some of the violations that we’re seeing from Fatah, from Hamas, from the Palestinian Authority?

Lynk: Sure, some of them have to do with torture, arbitrary arrest, with respect to the degree of surveillance on their own populations, with respect to probably or particularly the need for democracy. They lack democratic institutions. They are 14 years into a 4-year mandate. They haven’t had elections. I want to acknowledge the difficulty in trying to organize elections when you don’t have control over East Jerusalem and don’t have control over Gaza and don’t have control over large parts of the West Bank. The Palestinian Authority has control, full military and civil control or security control, over 18% of the West Bank. Basically, the large Palestinian cities, they share security control with the Israelis over another 22% over Area B. Over Area C, which is 60% of the West Bank, that’s over sole Israeli military and security and political control. So, holding elections, it is a great challenge and a great difficulty. I think the reason why you don’t see a greater international push for Palestinian elections is that they might wind up being content with the leadership that’s there now. You have a Palestinian leadership that wants to see a resolution. You have a Palestinian leadership in the West Bank not engaging in violence against Israeli settlers and the Israeli military. Yet, also, you have a Palestinian Authority, which is pretty much hemmed into a pretty very area. Not unlike Gaza in the 18% of the West Bank that they wind up controlling, keep in mind, the West Bank is 165 different islands of control under the Palestinian Authority. It is completely surrounded by Israel. They have no ability to be able to go into Israel.

Palestinians in the West Bank, they have no ability to go into Jordan across the border, except with Israeli permission. Many of the blockade measures mentioned about Gaza also exist in the West Bank as well. But as much as they can, you would expect the Palestinians would have greater international legitimacy and greater legitimacy with respect to their own people if they were able to have bona fide elections to be able to renew their political leadership. That seems, to me, as a significant issue with respect to human rights and democracy going to the Palestinians. With respect to Hamas, it is worse. They hold no elections. Even though, there is nothing preventing them from holding elections in the Gaza Strip. They are blockaded externally, but do have some control within Gaza. They have some control to hold elections if they wish. It diminishes their ability to be able to claim to speak on behalf of the Palestinian population by not having elections either. To me, those are basic democratic rights; the Palestinians, in soccer, it is an “own goal” by not trying to pursue the establishment of elections and democratic institutions and popular control over their political leaders.

Jacobsen: Other phrases or terms coming to the public, come in more dramatic statements or news, or press releases, etc. In the media, we will see phrases like “terror tunnels,” “Iron Dome.” We will see terms like “rockets.” What is the reality on the ground, for instance, of the efficacy of the Iron Dome for Israel? What is the reality of terror tunnels? Are these rockets coming from Gaza, for instance, being launched at Israel truly rockets in any conventional military sense?

Lynk: Sure, with respect to the rockets, whether or not they’re – and you say, ‘Rockets in a conventional sense,’ certainly, they have the power to damage. A lot of them are being shot into, and this is part of the negligence of this, from Gaza into Israel. Some of them reach Israeli civilian territory. You could argue that these are the places that these are meant or intended to land. If you send military shells or rockets onto a civilian population indiscriminately, that, certainly, is a war crime. I do not have a hesitation using the same standards to say, “Those are wrong. Those should be investigated by the International Criminal Court. They should be tried. If convicted, they should be punished because of that.” We also have to acknowledge that there is an extraordinary asymmetrical relationship militarily, economically, and politically between the Israelis and the Palestinians, more specifically between Israel and Gaza. Whenever damaging rockets can be launched from Gaza and can land in Israel, and have the potential to do harm for Israeli citizens, the Israeli military’s ability, in terms of their possession of advanced state of the art rockets, planes, artillery, tanks, and so on, far outnumbers what the Gazans can wind up doing in return.

We have seen that in the wars in 2008/2009, 2012, and 2014, and the periodic retaliation Israel may launch against Palestinians when rockets come out of there. Their firepower, their ability to cause huge civilian tolls in terms of wounded and dead, and damage and destruction of civilian centers such as homes and organizations and hospitals, is extraordinary in comparison to what the Gazans are capable. We have to keep this in mind with respect to this. Anyone who ends up firing in a disproportionate way at civilians is guilty or likely guilty of a war crime. That’s whether or not you are a Palestinian Hamas Jihad supporter or an Israeli military/political leader conducting that as well.

Jacobsen: This would be the “hugging” of international law. What have we not covered?

Lynk: If you have one more question, I am happy to cover it.

Jacobsen: Who/what would you consider some of the more robust authoritative objective, in as much as that is possible, organizations, or authors, or speakers on the Israeli-Palestinian issue?

Lynk: When I think of civil society organizations that I work with; this is not an exhaustive list. I think extremely highly of B’Tselem and Gisha. I have regard for the work that they wind up doing. On the Palestinian side, I think of Al-Haq. I think of the Palestinian Human Rights Center. I think of Al-Mezan. I think of many others. In Israel, I think of Adalah, which fights for Palestinian-Israeli citizens of Israel to fight for their human rights. The Israel Association for Civil Liberties is an organization whose work I follow and admire internationally. Obviously, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch do extraordinarily good work with regards to Israel and Palestine. If someone was interested in wanting to explore the issues of human rights and how leading organizations apply those standards to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, I cannot think of better organizations for exploring their advocacy, and their reporting, then the organizations that I’ve just listed.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Michael.

Lynk: Very well, Scott, thanks very much for this, you’re obviously well, well informed on this. I rarely come across an interviewer as deeply informed, and to have the pleasure to be given such thoughtful and wide-ranging questions as you’ve done. I am really pleased that you’re interviewing people like Richard Falk, John Dugard, among many other people. If I can do 1/10th of the quality of the work that they have done as Special Rapporteurs, I will have this on my tombstone and be very happy. They are extraordinary people. You are aware of the other organizations as well. It is all the people’s work who I end up cheering on. So, I’ll cheer on your work as well.

Jacobsen: Thank you, sir.

Lynk: [Laughing].​

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Professor Burge 4 – Overlap and Separation of Religion and the State

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/07/31

Professor Ryan Burge‘s website states: “I am an Assistant Professor of Political Science as well as the Graduate Coordinator at Eastern Illinois University. I teach in a variety of areas, including American institutions, political behavior, and research methods. My research focuses largely on the intersection between religiosity and political behavior (especially in the American context). Previously, I have completed an appointment as a post doctoral research fellow at the Paul Simon Public Policy Institute in Carbondale, Illinois. While there I was an adviser on issues of survey methodology and polling, as well as providing data collection and analysis.

I have published over a dozen articles in a number of well regarded peer reviewed journals including Politics & Religion, the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, the Review of Religious Research, the Journal of Religious Leadership, RepresentationPoliticsGroupsand Identities, the Journal of Communication and Religion, the Journal of Religion, Media and Digital Culture and the Social Science Computer Review. 

In addition, my research has been covered in a variety of media outlets including The New York Times, The Washington Post, CNN, NBC, Vox, 538, BuzzFeed News, Al-Jazeera, Christianity Today, Religion News Service, The Daily Mail, Deseret News, World Magazine, Relevant, and C-SPAN. I am the co-founder and frequent contributor to Religion in Public, a forum for scholars of religion and politics to make their work accessible to a more general audience.

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about some of the areas of overlap and separation of religion and the government.

*Interview conducted on July 7, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, we’re looking at an intersection of finances from taxes distributed by the American government and religious institutions. In general, how do Americans see this kind of cross-section? Do they see it as a hot button issue or more as a lukewarm issue?

Professor Burge: I feel this is one of the issues sitting in the background of religion and politics. One, it is never at the top of the list. Two, I think the American public think the government should not get involved with religion and proselytizing or supporting one religion or another or no religion.

When we talk about he separation of church and state, it is not about the government giving money to churches. It is about the constellation of issues revolving around the Sun of the issue of separation of church and state. It will flare up. Then it will go away. George W. Bush had faith-based initiatives, where the government wanted to give money to churches to feed the hungry, cloth the hungry. It was an issue for a while.

It went away. Now, we see a new thing. It will go away. There will be another thing in the future. Definitely, right now, it is a hot button issue.

Jacobsen: How does this split in terms of the three major political affiliations in the United States – Republican, Democrat, and Independent?

Burge: Christians are generally Republican. Republican Party is the party of white Christians generally. Don’t get me wrong, The Democratic Party has half of its members identifying with Christianity. When we think of giving money to churches rom the government, Republicans are more supportive of it than Democrats.

If you ask, ‘Do you think if churches are given money by government that this will increase religious division?’ Democrats are more likely to say, “Yes,” than Republicans. Democrats are more likely to say that people shouldn’t be forced to engage in religious practice than Republicans. So, there’s always this divide.

The Democrats are very wary of using tax dollars to try to grow churches, to try to proselytize, evangelize, etc. This kind of stuff. They think the two spheres should be separate. There is a whole growing literature politics science called Christian Nationalism. It is this insidious belief that America is a ‘Christian nation’ founded on Christian principles and, therefore, the government should advocate for those Christian principles to the detriment of people who are non-Christians.

For example, Muslims, things like Sharia Law. Things like the Ten Commandments up. That’s a big deal for Christian nationalists. It is almost always a Republican idea; that America is a Christian nation, while most Democrats disagree and consider America a pluralistic nation of all religious groups and backgrounds and should celebrate that. Christian nationalists think we should celebrate Christianity and almost always conservative Protestant Christianity.

Jacobsen: Is another term for this Dominionism or Reconstructionism?

Burge: Yes, there’s this thing called the Seven Mountains. This is all part od Dominionism. If you get way down the rabbit hole of all this stuff, a lot of people who write about his stuff will write about America pre-destined by God, chosen by God; ‘we are the new Israel.’ Ron Reagan even used the language of John Winthrop calling us ‘a shining city upon hill.’ Like, ‘Everyone will come to us.’ It is exactly the language of the Old Testament of Israel being a shining city on the hill.

It goes back to saying, “We are not another nation. We are a special nation called on, by God.” I don’t think any other nation on Earth believes that, like we do in America. It is a big part of conservative politics in America in seeing us as special and themselves as part of it.

Jacobsen: When it comes to government and religion, what are the ones that come to mind now?

Burge: Yes, so, the one that’s really on everyone’s mind is the Paycheque Protection Program, which when Covid took hold and many businesses in America had to close shop; the idea was to give money to employers to keep people employed by their employers. It could be tens of millions out of work and on unemployment lines. The government strategy was, “Let’s give money to employers to keep those people employed by their employers, so, when Covid is over, it is easier for them to go back into the workforce. So, they don’t have to go on unemployment insurance and don’t have to be rehired.”

Basically, they would give you money to pay 10 weeks of payroll expenses. It was a loan. But if you filled out the forgiveness documents, you get all the money refunded or forgiven. It would be a forgivable loan, so a direct grant. The Trump Administration made the PPP loans available to religious organizations and churches. Many of them received funds with over $7 billion of federal money given to religious organizations and churches.

For a lot of constitutional scholars, especially on the left, they considered this a violation because it was state supported religion with paying clergy salaries. That’s clearly, for those people, a violation. For others, it says, “Other people got it. If churches didn’t get it, then it is a violation. It might also be a violation of the First Amendment.”

It is a big discussion in the secular communities. They are very upset that churches do not pay property taxes, don’t pay income taxes, and are enjoying the PPP loans. The reason for the flare-up now is the small business association released a list of everyone who received the loans of $150,000. It was 661,000 organizations. About 12,000 were religious organizations.

So, lots and lots of churches got lots and lots of money from the government to keep the doors open.

Jacobsen: What would happen without the funding to those churches?

Burge: Good question, mass layoffs in a lot of cases. When people think of churches in America, they think of thousands of people and 20, 40, 60, staff members. The average church is very small, less than 100 people. A lot of them were so vulnerable. The downturning in given would have to close the doors, couldn’t employ staff. It would have lead to the closure of many churches.

For bigger churches, like megachurches with 75 or 100 staff, it would lead to mass layoffs. You have to think from an economic standpoint. Is it good that these people were laid off for the economy as a whole, forgetting that fact that they work for churches? We don’t know the full effects of PPP yet.

According to the document that I saw, 31,000,000 Americans’ jobs were retained because of PPP, which is a huge chunk. We have 160,000,000 adult Americans. We’re talking about 20% of all adult Americans. Overall, I think it was a good program.

Jacobsen: When it comes to other forms, some of the aforementioned with tax exemptions for places of worship in general. How do Christian nationalists reconcile the idea of a separation of religion and government while also seeing the tax exempt status for their places of worship? Also, the other side as well, how do the ordinary believers and the secular believe this?

Burge: The thing about Christian nationalism, they do not want a separation of church and state. They want an integration of church and state as long as the church is the Evangelical Protestant Church. They want America to be a Christian government used for advocating Christian principles aimed for proselytizing Christian principles. They want the Ten Commandments up in the court rooms.

They want the Ten Commandments up as monuments. They want prayer in schools, public schools. It is all part of Christian nationalism as an idea. PPP is an idea. It should support the church because it is a Christian thing, but not to mosques, synagogues, and all these other groups. They might bristle at that idea. In the case of more moderate Christians, I think a lot of them take a pragmatic view of things like this.

They see churches need money to keep the doors open and do not necessarily see this as encouraging religion of a specific type. There has been a huge backlash from the secular community saying, ‘This is all a sham. Churches don’t pay taxes and should not get money back.” What is interesting, American Atheist, Freedom From Religion, the Humanist Society, Center for Inquiry took money too. They’re non-profits as well. It has been really funny.

Even the Ayn Rand Foundation…

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Burge: …they even took a payout from the PPP. So, it goes to show you. Your ideals are one thing. When they are handing out cheques, everyone puts their hand out and tries to justify it on the backend while trying to justify it as they see fit. It has been an interesting exercise in seeing how theoretical policy meets real policy. We are seeing most Americans do not stick to their guns theologically or politically.

When the money comes around, they stick out their hands.

Jacobsen: What organizations did stick to their guns and not giving ad hoc rationalization?

Burge: It is hard to know. Some places did apply and didn’t get it, for whatever reason. We don’t know who didn’t apply. For instance, I look for the Southern Baptist Convention on the list. They weren’t on it. They may have had theological reasons or didn’t need the money or under a different name.

So, it is hard to know who didn’t do that. Tons of Catholic dioceses did that. This is what makes Catholic diocese more difficult. They have clergy, teaching schools. The money went to pay for teachers who work in the school systems too. It is hard to know out of the $7.3 billion went to clergy versus teachers, janitors, and others who do not do a clergy function while taking care of the building

We’ll never know the answer to that question.

Jacobsen: So, how much does America truly separate government and religion?

Burge: Some [Laughing], I think that’s the answer. I could go for an hour on instances where we give religion to wide of a range today. The court system in America has been incredibly deferential to religious groups.

A pastor can be fired at any time for any reason without any legal recourse. There are some states: If you run a private daycare, you are inspected several times a year. If you are a Christian daycare as part of a church, then you are never inspected because no politician in America wants to seem like they are antagonistic to religion or Christianity.

So, Christianity in America gets free range, in a lot of ways, because people are afraid to check them – politicians and bureaucrats as well. So, I think the answer is that Christianity does get a wide girth. I don’t think there are many instances where it is explicitly supported by money. However, churches are non-profits who don’t have to pay taxes or even file much paperwork.

If you are a non-profit in America, secular non-profit, you have to file a form every year listing how much is raised, how much is spent, who is on the board, and the salaries. Churches in America do not need to file any of this. It is an opacity in the report filing. It is an instance of American religion insulated from politics.

I think that’s the way most people like it – staying far away from it. However, I will say this. There are many churches who want to be political. There is something called Pulpit Freedom Sunday that happens every year. Some members of the clergy will give speeches in which they explicitly endorse political candidates for parties, which is a violation of the Johnson Amendment; it allows all these churches to have all this freedom to not pay taxes as long as they don’t endorse candidates.

These churches will endorse candidates as a means to thumb their nose at the IRS to see if they will revoke their tax exempt status. It never happens; it has never happened. Because again, the IRS is scared to death of seeming antagonistic to religion. They will never shut down a church, even if they are not only violating the spirit but the letter of the law of the Johnson Amendment.

So, churches in America have a lot, a lot, a lot of latitude in how they behave and the government doesn’t want to intrude on them.

Jacobsen: What would you consider the greatest area of separation? What would you consider the greatest area of overlap?

Burge: The biggest area is in hiring and firing. If you run a private business and fire or hire someone, you have to justify this. Churches have to justify none of this. They can fire anyone, anytime, for any reason. There are churches that have fired people for coming out as gay.

There was a Catholic church that fired a schoolteacher that had in vitro fertilization because it is a violation of Catholic doctrine. The courts have nothing to say about it. They intentionally will not mess with that at all. It is outside their purview.

When it comes to when they are really close together, I don’t think there are any really strong instances of that, except for the fact that there are times when churches will do things like voter registration drives in the lobby of the church. Even some churches in America, typically black churches, will have political candidates come speak at the pulpit, that’s a collide. White Evangelicals tend not to do that.

They tend to bristle at that. What they tend not to understand, the Black Church in America came up during Jim Crow and discrimination where the church became the meeting place in all aspects of life for African Americans because they did not have access to the Moose Lodge, the Elks’ Club, or a social club.

If you wanted to meet together in a big space, e.g., in the South during Jim Crow, the church became the place for that because it was easy. You didn’t think about the implications of a politician speaking from the pulpit. Mike Pence spoke from a church in Dallas a little while ago, predominantly white Evangelical church.

I think those are the times religion and politics are really, really close, when politicians try to reach out to religious demography while trying to win over votes.

Jacobsen: Professor Burge, thank you for your time.

Burge: Always a pleasure.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Jon 15 – Evidence-Based Policy-Making

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/07/30

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New YorkHere we talk about evidence-based policy.

*Interview conducted on June 22, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, you’ve been doing some reflection on evidence-based policy making and some research on the numbers of guns in the United States. What is your general reflection on evidence-based policy making? What are some of the numbers cropping up in the midst of the research on the staggering number of guns in the United States and the fallout from that?

Jonathan Engel: In the United States, there has been an outcry, of course. It has been well-known and publicized about police and policing with force and about black people. There has been a lot of thought and talk about restructuring policing in this country. It seems like a good idea. Many things don’t seem to be working. We have too many people in prison in this country. We have, obviously, crimes rates, generally, speaking, that are too high.

People do not feel protected by the police. In fact, there are many people of colour in this country who quite understandably feel afraid of he police. So, we have a situation ripe for rethinking policing. What are we going to do? What will do differently? What changes can we make to public safety? Again, not just policing, even public safety as an idea: What do we do to enhance our public safety?

Now, there are a lot of ideas going around, e.g., defund the police. It seems like a slogan meaning different things to people. One of them is taking resources used for policing and see if you can take some of those resources and put them in other areas, e.g., mental health resources, social service delivery, mental health delivery, substance abuse delivery, housing, and see if this can enhance public safety.

I’ll tell you something interesting. I saw it. I want to do some research on it. I find it fascinating. One way to reduce crime is to ameliorate lead paint in housing. We know that lead is one of the most poisonous substances on earth and affects the mind. There is some research indicating that one of the reasons why the crime rate has been slowly but steadily down in the United States is that we’ve worked, but not enough, to ameliorate lead paint. If we put resources into that, it could be successful.

It is important that what we do is evidence-based. You can’t just think about what you want to see, what feels right. To say, “It sounds like a good idea.” An example is a lot of the police departments in the last 10 or 20 years have had mandatory racial training in terms of racial sensitivity training for the police. It doesn’t appear to be working. Recent research shows that it doesn’t work.

We really need to make sure that whatever it is that we do is consistent with the evidence. You mentioned firearms in this country. It is one of the things that has to be looked into in terms of de-escalating confrontations between police and citizens. Right now, I am talking without having done the research, but I would like to do it. I run this as a hypothesis, not as a fact.

I would think that police in this country, when they stop somebody; when they interact with the citizen, there’s a legitimate concern of them being armed. The reason for this being legitimate: There are almost 400,000,000 firearms in public hands in the United States, which is incredible [Laughing]. It is over 120 firearms per 100 people.

So, what are the odds that when a policeman stops someone that they are armed? Pretty good. What happens? Again, I am not saying this from research, but research should be done on this. I would think that this would result in police in being a little more fast to reach for their own firearm. If you are thinking, “This person is quite possibly armed,” and in this country, it is true.

I recently saw a letter to the editor saying, ‘The U.S. should be more like the U.K.’ In this sense, many of the police officers on the beat in the U.K. do not routinely carry a firearm. It seems like a great idea. At the same time, the populace does not carry firearms for the most part in the U.K. In the U.K., there are a lot of people who own shotguns. There is a lot of hunting in the U.K. Apart from the shotguns, there are only 500,000 or so for 67,000,000 (500,000 firearms). Whereas, in the U.S., there are 400,000,000 for 320,000,000 or so people. It is a much higher rate.

It doesn’t seem realistic to ask the police to not carry firearms. Until, we start enforcing and enacting real guns laws that will reduce the umber of firearms in private hands to lessen the need for police to carry firearms.

Jacobsen: How is this conversation taking place in the secular society? What were some of the responses to some of the policy changes and plans until April of next year by Cuomo?

Engel: People are taking a “wait and see” approach. People do want change. That’s out there. I caution myself, “Let’s make sure the changes are evidence-based rather than knee-jerk and only sounds good.” Most seem pretty open. Some are more radical than others. I hear some people, ‘Defund the police,’ meaning, “Defund the police, no more police.” I think that’s the type of thing that is not going to be accepted by most citizens in this country.

You are walking towards your car at night and someone walks towards it. You don’t want to send a social worker.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Engel: And I have a lot of respect for social workers. It makes sense to look at the research and take some police resources, for the police too, so the police do not have to deal with situations in which they shouldn’t and aren’t trained for, e.g., mental health issues with a mental breakdown or something like that. It would be good for them too – to not be in a situation in which they were not trained for.

Cuomo has put forward some proposals. However, New York has a strange legislature – let’s see what gets enacted. I think this has really been a real time for rethinking. I hope we do it right, use evidence, use evidence-based research to make decisions; I do think that for a lot of people, certainly people of colour, the policing and public safety are not what they should and could be. We can do better; we can use the research to show us what we can do.

I do think that you’re making a mistake if you’re leaving anything that might have an effect off the table. One oft hose is the ubiquity of guns in private ownership. Also, the lethality of the guns and the assault rifles. It is all kinds of issues related around gun ownership. If you are going to rethink public safety, then this has to be on the table.

Jacobsen: Last question, is the policy here with a focus on evidence-based reasoning completely at odds with the proposals around faith-based reasoning? In that, as we talked about before, the “thoughts and prayers” culture is taking a whooping.

Whereas, the evidence-based stuff is becoming more and more accepted because people pray, unfortunately people die, and the reality test of death of those around oneself simply comes to the fore, whether one is watching the Floyd video or the Trayvon video or in some critical ward with coronavirus ravaging the lungs. A reality becoming more unavoidable for citizens in developed societies who take more faith-based reasoning in America on average.

Engel: Yes, I was talking to someone about this in the morning. I saw an article or a front-page article in The New York Times on the Trump supporters who went to his rally in Tulsa – the few [Laughing] – on Saturday. There were interviews with some of thee people who are saying things like, ‘I don’t believe this Covid stuff. I think it is all done to hurt President Trump,’ etc.

One of the things that came to mind, ‘Where did these people learn to believe things for which there was no evidence?’ In church, you are taught when little to believe things without evidence. It is the highest virtue that you can have to believe stuff without evidence. Faith, the belief in something without evidence. People are taught from when they are little kids in church and synagogue, and mosque, and Hindu temples, etc.

It is one of the greatest virtues to believe something for which there is no evidence. It is a very difficult chain to break. Hope springs eternal, I am hopeful that we can turn a corner. Are there people out there who pray for aunt Mary or someone who winds up dying of coronavirus anyway who will say, “The evidence shows, it doesn’t work”? I hope we’re moving forward.

However, civilization is not a straight curve upward. It zig-zags around. I would hope one of the results of this terrible pandemic is that there prayers simply didn’t work and, therefore, based on that evidence, “Let’s try something that the evidence does show works,” for example, wearing a mask.

Jacobsen: Sir, as always, thank you.

Engel: Thank you, Scott, you take of yourself! I’ll speak to you next week.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Jon 14 – ‘It’s not then. It’s today.’

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/07/28

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New YorkHere we talk about American social issues.

*Interview conducted on June 15, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are going to talk about a letter to the editor of The New York Times by you. What was the instigation for it? What did you state in regards to rage?

Jonathan Engel: I was talking about the Bible more. There was an opinion piece in The New York Times called “What the Bible has to Say About Black Anger” by Esau McCaulley. He is an Assistant Professor of the New Testament at Wheaton College and a priest in the Anglican Church. He talked about the anger African Americans and others feel in the United States around police brutality and racial discrimination.

But The New York Times is kind of my hometown paper. Although, it considers itself to be an international media outlet as opposed to a local media outlet. It is the local paper for me. So, again, this person talked about what the Bible says about rage. It was a communication to Christians. It didn’t have a bad intent.

The intent, I think, was to talk to Christians and have them understand the rage that many of their fellow citizens are feeling right now involving issues around policing, racism, etc. So, in and of itself, I don’t think or consider this a bad person or what he wrote bad, but I don’t understand why anybody would look that particular book about anything that’s happening today – for inspiration about anything happening today.

One of the first things I look at it. Which Bible? When the phrase, “The Bible,” is used by a Christian, they assume their Bible is the Bible used by everyone. The Jewish Bible is different than the Christian Bible. Other holy texts are different. With the title of the article, what the Bible says about rage, it assumes everybody, “Yes! The Christian Bible…” The version of the Protestants is different than the Catholics. I am not sure what he is getting at there.

Also, something more pertinent, the ongoing racial problems that the United States has had over… always had, since Europeans came to these shores. The issues regarding, specifically, black people or African Americans stem from slavery. That’s how black people from African descent got to this country. They were brought here as slaves.

My question, “Why would you look for inspiration about how to deal with an injustice that was ignited by slavery or the belief that it is okay for one human being or own another human being? Why would you look for inspiration on how to deal with that to a book that says in many cases, ‘Slavery is okay’?” That’s illogical. It doesn’t make sense.

I wrote to the Times today. Again, it goes into the entire idea that somehow religion is a positive thing as opposed to sometimes a positive and sometimes a negative thing while looking at it objectively. There is no objective looking at religion, except for you and me [Laughing]. That’s why we do this. There’s no objective looking at religion as to whether it is good or bad because it is an assumption that it must be for the good. For what reason? I don’t know.

That’s the point. Why would you look to a book saying, “Slavery is okay,” when the book endorsed it?

Jacobsen: How has slavery played itself out into the current day? In that, American society has it off the books. It is no longer formalized. Yet, the manifestations of different outcomes over generations comes forward to the present day.

Engel: You can see it in how post-Civil War race relations in the United States played out. There is one of my favourite books of all time. The name of the book, winning a Pulitzer Prize for history, was called The Warmth of Other Suns by Isabel Wilkerson. In that book, the author talks about the Great Migration of African Americans from the South to points North and West from about 1900 through about 1975 or so, 1970 or so. So, the book is fantastic. You get a real picture of what life was like in the Jim Crow South for African Americans during that period, because you’re talking about the story of people leaving.

You start with ‘Why?” What made them make ths journey, which for many of them was very perilous in many ways, also, it was to places where blacks weren’t exactly welcome. Even in the North and in the West, it wasn’t as bad as the Jim Crow South, but it wasn’t a panacea of racial brotherhood either. So, you see for a lot of black people living in the South during this period. There was no more slavery. The Constitution had outlawed it.

However, life was not a whole lot better for them compared to under slavery.

There is the use of the police to enforce racial discrimination. All of this is post-slavery and early 1900s in the U.S. Many former slaves became sharecroppers, essentially staying on the land in the South where they had been slaves or their parents had been slaves – and having some sort of deal, not a very good one, with the person who owned the land who was always white.

So, the sharecropper, they were allowed to be on the land. The owner of the land would give them certain seeds to plant and things like that. In exchange for that, they would take a whole bunch of the crops with barely enough to subsist on. At the end of the year, they would total it all up asking, “Who owes who what? I gave you those crops and this stuff.”

Interestingly enough, it was always the black sharecropper who owed money. If they thought, “I want to leave. I have had enough of this.” The police would come, “You can’t leave.”

Jacobsen: That’s crazy.

Engel: This is a civil matter. This shouldn’t be a legal matter. But the police were a tool to enforce racism. This is post-slavery, etc. I think in coming forward to today; that’s what a lot of African American people in this country believe is happening in this country with good evidence. That the police are still being used as an instrument of the racial order, which keeps them at the bottom.

I think that’s an important factor to keep in mind when we looking at the unrest and the protests in cities today with regard to the police – all over the country too. It has been a function of the police for those sharecropping days in the country. The police have been used to enforce racial segregation and in hiring, etc.

That’s where you see this coming from slavery, where slavery is still something that affects this country. If it wasn’t for religion, for the fact that it was a religious term in many ways, I would echo what many say when they say slavery is America’s “original sin.”

Jacobsen: Two points of contact there for me. One is the comedy special entitled “8:46” released by the prominent American comedian Dave Chappelle who is carrying the torch from Richard Pryor. Richard Pryor’s opinion, not mine. He produced an unpolished and much shorter special covering police brutality, murder, protests in the streets, and so on, in the special.

This became a moderate cultural commentary piece amongst individuals including Candace Owens, Don Lemon, without much or any commentary by Laura Ingraham, where he mentioned all three in the special.

He made the same note as you. ‘It’s not then. It’s today.’ To the Cuomo point, he made a first and firm change in New York, which will come tied to funding for the police in New York with substantial reforms incorporating community transparency, community involvement, and deepening the degrees to which community in New York State communicate with the police and the police communicate with the public while having transparency and accountability on a level not seen for some time.

He was noting – Cuomo – that this was an issue for the last 40 to 50 years. Whether from leadership or popular truthtellers in American society, there’s been a limit hit to which the issues can’t be ignored as much. What are some other commentaries are changes in New York, for instance, that you notice, which would be considered of note for the conversation today?

Engel: Just what you just mentioned in terms of Cuomo, I think we’re seeing something changing and, hopefully, a harbinger of continuing growth and change with regards to race relations. If you look at the demonstrations about the Black Lives Matter, etc., a lot of white people out there and a lot of young white people out there. It gives me a lot of hope.

Not that this isn’t an African American movement, it should be led by them; it is led by them. But one thing I think people are realizing is that they don’t want to live in a society in which people are judged by the colour of their skin in any way, shape, or form. It’s white people saying this too, “We aren’t interested in privilege. We want to live in a society where everyone is treated equally.”

Also, I think we’re seeing a willingness to be open about the need for police reform. Being a cop is a hard job. There’s no question about it. But the police have been idolized in some ways for a long time, like the military. So, any ideas about how we can do public safety better have been quashed in the sense of “oh my god, you’re against the police!”  It ends the conversation.

Hopefully, we aren’t seeing tis anymore. We are seeing a possibility of questioning the ways we go about achieving public safety. They don’t seem to be working well, especially for people of colour. Today, it seems as if you can question it, even a politician, without an immediate shutdown of the discussion because “you’re not a supporter of the police.”

This is something that I hope is coming out of this entire movement as a possibility because this way; it will enable us to move forward. The discussion isn’t shut down. It moves forward instead. Rather than say, “All police are monsters.” We still have to look at what they’re doing, how they’re doing it, and how we can be more equal in how we are policing people.

Jacobsen: Jon, thanks, man.

Engel: Scott, no problem, you take care.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Professor Burge 3 – “Power is not a means; it is an end.”

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/07/28

Professor Ryan Burge‘s website states: “I am an Assistant Professor of Political Science as well as the Graduate Coordinator at Eastern Illinois University. I teach in a variety of areas, including American institutions, political behavior, and research methods. My research focuses largely on the intersection between religiosity and political behavior (especially in the American context). Previously, I have completed an appointment as a post doctoral research fellow at the Paul Simon Public Policy Institute in Carbondale, Illinois. While there I was an adviser on issues of survey methodology and polling, as well as providing data collection and analysis.

I have published over a dozen articles in a number of well regarded peer reviewed journals including Politics & Religion, the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, the Review of Religious Research, the Journal of Religious Leadership, RepresentationPoliticsGroupsand Identities, the Journal of Communication and Religion, the Journal of Religion, Media and Digital Culture and the Social Science Computer Review. 

In addition, my research has been covered in a variety of media outlets including The New York Times, The Washington Post, CNN, NBC, Vox, 538, BuzzFeed News, Al-Jazeera, Christianity Today, Religion News Service, The Daily Mail, Deseret News, World Magazine, Relevant, and C-SPAN. I am the co-founder and frequent contributor to Religion in Public, a forum for scholars of religion and politics to make their work accessible to a more general audience.

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about some of the religious diversity of America and growing concern on polarization across generations and within generations, and a threat to a democratic society in America.

*Interview conducted on July 20, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Let’s talk about Christianity in general with the research for you. We’ll be talking about Evangelicals and Catholics. What are some interesting variables where you can parse these sub-demographic populations of the religious population in the United States?

Professor Ryan Burge: So, a lot of people don’t realize. We are religiously diverse and regionally diverse inside that diversity as well. For instance, places like New England are highly Catholic and highly mainline Protestant with Episcopal and United Methodist churches. If you go to the South, it is almost impossible to find a church in the counties. You will find a Southern Baptist church on every corner and a megachurch. If you go out West, Seattle and Portland and the Pacific Northwest, they are incredibly religiously unaffiliated.

With America, we are religious as a country, but not every state is religious and not every region is religious in the same way. People in SoCal, you can have a mix of Hispanic Catholics, White Evangelicals, Buddhists, Hindus, and Mormons who migrate from Utah. America is religiously diverse. The other thing, Catholic is New England is not the same as a Catholic in the South or in California or in the Midwest.

Regional influence plays a role in doctrine, theology, and partisanship. A Baptist living in Alabama will be a MAGA hat wearing Trump supporter. An Evangelical in New England will be more moderate on immigration and same-sex marriage. If you go out West, you will get a special type of Evangelical one might find in Colorado or Montana. Those Evangelicals are more Libertarian.

They don’t care about abortions or two guys getting married. They want a government staying out of the way and as small as possible. It is hard to create equivalences between this or that Evangelical or this or that Catholic. So, you can’t really make those equivalences.

Jacobsen: Millennials have more liberalized opinions. At the same time, there are islands or pockets of some of these demographics of Millennials who can be conservative and ultra-conservative in contrast to the general trends that we see over generations in America. What are those trends?

Burge: A piece came out in Social Forces, which is a sociology journal. On the issue of abortion, they found that Millennial Evangelicals and Millennial Protestant Christians as a whole are more conservative on abortion than Gen X when they were the same age or the Boomers when they were the same age. What is even more interesting to me, Millennials as a whole are more liberal on abortion than Gen X when they were the same age and Boomers when they were the same age.

So, we are seeing a polarization among Millennials. I think we will see this with Gen Z, but they are too young for the data so far. If you are Christian and young, you are incredibly conservative. If you are young and not a Christian, you are pretty liberal. The gap between religious and non-religious people is getting bigger with every generation. It is pretty scary. It makes it harder to govern and navigate social media, even relationships.

If you want to be a Christian and get along with people, good luck, your positions are now very far from their positions. It portends a scary future for America with polarization getting bigger with each successive generation.

Jacobsen: Is it an even weight in terms of the bifurcation?

Burge: So, younger people, we know are trending towards being not religiously affiliated. The data that we have shows Millennials and Gen Z are 35 to 40% religiously unaffiliated, which is much higher than Boomers at 20% or so. Gen X falls in the middle. What I think we are seeing here, for younger people, there’s a fusion in their minds between conservative politics and Christianity.

If you are going to be Christian, mainline or Evangelical, you’re going to have to be conservative because that’s what the predominant voice is in those traditions. If you aren’t conservative politically, then you are defaulted into being a None or religiously unaffiliated. Older generations did not grow up that way. You can be  Democrat and a Catholic or a Democrat and even a Protestant 30 or 40 years ago.

Today, you can’t be those things. It is the fusion of conservative politics and Christianity with those two images fusing to the point of young people not realizing liberal Evangelicals out there, not many, but they’re out there. You don’t have to vote for Donald Trump if you want to go to church and want to believe in things.

That is drawing a lot of young people away from the church. It is the politics. They are okay with the theology, Jesus, the smells, and tbe bells. They just can’t deal with the religion because they see religion tied with conservative political ideology.

Jacobsen: What are some unexplained phenomena?

Burge: There are so many weird little things that I see. I constantly look at how Evangelicals behave by level of church attendance. A lot of people will say, “The Evangelicals who elected Trump are the Evangelicals who never go to church.” That is patently false. There is a clear positive relationship between church attendance and Trump voting amongst Evangelicals. Meaning, the more that you go to church; the more likely you are to vote for Trump in 2016 in the general election.

There is a weird thing happening, recently, where Evangelicals who go monthly, which is the middle category of 6. They consistently show lower levels of support for Trump than people who go one category less, which is once or twice every couple of years or who go multiple times a week. To me, those are the Evangelicals who are like, “Yes, I’m Evangelical. I’m not going to give up my Republican-roots.” I take it as a protest vote.

They back away from going to church. They are a weird aberration. I am still trying to figure out. Why haven’t they gone to church, yet? Why wouldn’t they walk away from that identity, yet?

Jacobsen: What do you think is the scariest trend of Millennials and Gen Z coming behind them with increasing polarity on religion and politics?

Burge: I think everything feeds back up to that. We talk about policy and things like that. Everything is downstream from partisanship now. I think the average person underestimates how important and how strong partisanship is in the lives of everybody. You pick a side. You pick a team. You pick a team on policy across the board. I know people who I grew up with who were not religious at all.

If you invited them to church, they got mad. Now, they post Christian memes on Facebook because they have become hardcore Republicans. They know to become Republican is to be hardcore Christian. The issue is how to navigate a society in which you think your party is all that’s good about America; and if the other party is elected, then that’s the end of America. I find this so poisonous in America.

Both sides do it, but especially Donald Trump. ‘If Joe Biden is elected, then there will be chaos in the streets. You won’t survive four years of that.’ We had four years of Obama. It is continual. How do you turn up the volume and raise the stakes every four years? People have gotten so entrenched; there is no way through.

Here is my bigger worry, the one thing that I worry about is when Donald Trump says things to questions like, “If you don’t get enough votes and lose the electoral college, will you recognize that?” He says, ‘We’ll see.’ That’s the scariest rhetoric that exists today.

Because the peaceful handing of power from one party to another party is literally the hallmark of democracy. Without it, you don’t have democracy. When George Washington willfully gave the presidency up, it was the most important point in the history of American democracy, because never do leaders willingly give up their power.

No one assumed that that would happen. For him to cling to power when it no longer belongs to him anymore, it would tear at the foundations of what American democracy is. It would put us in a very bad place, where people will be stuck with a cult of personality versus what they know to be right and the rule of law.

That’s not a place where I want to be.

Jacobsen: Professor Burge, thanks so much.

Burge: Always a pleasure, man!

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Jon 13 – A Story About U.S.: It’s All About Me, Me, Me

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/07/27

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New YorkHere we talk about America now.

*Interview conducted on July 20, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What’s new with America in the midst of its pandemic now?

Jonathan Engel: I think there’s a lot of talk about states that open too quickly with this new surge of viruses in so many states here. A lot of them did, something else that is problematic. It is not only opening too quickly, but too many people to this as, “Oh, we don’t need to do anything. We can go out and have good times, open churches, bars, restaurants, with everyone going in.” Obviously, this isn’t the case.

Once you open, you have to be so careful. Otherwise, the spread will happen again. Here in New York City, we have done pretty well. We are still doing pretty well. Over the weekend, there were reports of young people congregating in bars and restaurants and without masks and being to close to each other without social distancing. It is a possibility of closing down again if we start to see cases rising. It is amazing to me that so many Americans are out there talking about not wanting to wear a mask, “It is about my freedom.” Look what your freedom has gotten you.

You cannot go to Europe. You cannot go to Canada. You want to come to the state of New  York. You have to quarantine for 14 days when you get here. Does that sound like freedom? It doesn’t sound like freedom to me. Freedom isn’t lack of responsibility. To me, Fat Donny, out esteemed president is out there talking about how important it is about the anarchists.

People say, “I don’t have to obey the rules, obey the law.” If that is now anarchy, what is? He is out there saying, “They are a bunch of anarchists.” You cannot believe a thing that the man says. You have to figure this out. I do not want New York City to become like the rest of this country. We are in a spot now. I am still being very careful. I allowed myself a little leeway. I have been out to a couple supermarkets.

We are wiping out food when it gets here, not prepared from restaurants, but ordering from supermarkets with wiping the cans and the bottles with alcohol wipes before putting it away. We are still doing it. But I have allowed myself to go to a couple supermarkets. Everyone is wearing a mask. But you have to be careful. You have to be careful and follow the rules.

It seems so strange. In this country, for years, the Republican Party since Reagan or before have been pushing the line that government is bad. Reagan famously said, “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: I’m from the government and I’m here to help.” It is about government as part of the problem rather than the solution. Sometimes, you need government. You really do.

What is government? When you think about it, it is our collective selves. We are all together. When the second Bush was elected president, he inherited a big budget surplus from Clinton. The first thing he said was, ‘I am going to do a tax cut and give this money back to the people. This isn’t our money. It is your money.’ I was upset. It is our money. The surplus is our collective money.

It was your job, Bush, to use it in a way that benefits the most people. We really have ignored our infrastructure in this country for way too long. Why not use that money on infrastructure project? It would take a belief and an understanding that government is a reflection of the entire population of all the people, not just a bunch of individuals. I’m sorry.

No matter how much you believe in freedom, we are not just a bunch of individuals. This is not the dark ages as a peasant with a plot of land and never having to see people. This is the 21st century, as far as I can tell. You can talk about all the individual rights. Without an understanding of the collective good and having to participate in the collective good, and having to contribute to the collective good, you have individual rights, but your individual right isn’t permitting yourself to go out and kill other people. This is the big thing happening in this country.

We have done better in New York now. We have to be careful. Part of this is an understanding of living in a society and having an obligation to your fellow people, fellow Americans, fellow human beings, we all have an obligation like that. I think too many Americans put that aside and don’t even consider it. All they are interested in is “I have a right to…” It’s like, You have certain rights, and obligations too.”

Someone may say, “I love driving on the left side of the road. I lived in the UK. Why can’t I use my freedom?”” That is no more crazy than “Why do I have to wear a mask to protect people, potentially, if I have Covid-19 and give it to them?” How is this different than driving on the left side of the road? You could kill people. It is the lack of consideration of the needs of the many with those of the few.

Jacobsen: Jon [Laughing], thank you, you answered this with one question.

Engel: [Laughing] Well, I guess I had a lot to say.

Jacobsen: [Laughing] You’re welcome for the question.

Engel: [Laughing] Well, you know, it’s upsetting!

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Interview with Ranil Prasad on Municipal Prayers

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/07/22

Ranil Prasad “is a fourth year political science student at UBC, where he studies the relationship between party platforms and legislative activities. In his spare time, he is the Premier of the non-partisan BC Youth Parliament, a youth service organization in which youth engagement and community serviced are emphasized. He also hosts (extremely exclusive!) dinner parties and is an avid Canucks fan. From July to October he worked on campaigns with the BCHA.” Here we talk about municipal prayers.

*Interview conducted on June 17, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, when we are talking about municipal prayers, what is defined as a prayer in this context? Why focus on municipal in particular?

Ranil Prasad: First, the definition of a prayer is much looser than one would expect. In that, it is more of a pornography definition of “I know it when I see it.” It is important for municipalities because they do not have parliamentary privilege. They do not have the privilege to say what they want pretty much. For example, in a council meeting, they can be sued compared to the federal and provincial levels of government. It is one of the reasons for suing the City of Saguenay, which applies at the municipal level.

Jacobsen: You are doing this through the BCHA and at the nation-wide level. What is the importance of organizational backing? What is the importance of doing this study across Canada to challenge this unfairness?

Prasad: So, something we like to say, “Humanism doesn’t end at the Rocky Mountains.” It is not in our interest or the members’ interests to not deal with these things or egregious violations of religion and government in other cities. We know there are some local people who would like to challenge it. It is our rationale for it. Also, we want to know what is happening in the rest of the country because it is in our interest as well. On institutional or organizational backing, we have built a reputation for ourselves based on the research output and legitimacy. We have a good reputation with other humanist organizations and with the media. So, we have added legitimacy through these.

Jacobsen: What are some of the – in terms of the research at it stands now – more egregious cases of violations of the Saguenay decision, for instance?

Prasad: Yes, it is interesting. This is urban bias coming through. However, I thought smaller municipalities were the ones violating it, and the larger ones were at the forefront. I have noticed a lot of large municipalities are the ones violating it and trying to use mental gymnastics to get over it. The most egregious is Hamilton, Ontario. They are a workers’ city with a strong progressive history. But they started off in a prayer. Interestingly, Hamilton prayers are overwhelmingly Christian and overwhelmingly by men. They did try to protect it. It is interesting. They know it is wrong. Frankly, they were trying o get out of it.

Jacobsen: What are some of the mental gymnastics, some of the excuses?

Prasad: They invite guests into the Council [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Prasad: I don’t think the court would agree this is a way to get out of the responsibility [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing] What are some phrases or terms used in some of the prayers, which make them more or less Christian in terms of the output?

Prasad: A lot of this is based on key words. Things about Jesus, the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. These are key words to see if these are Christian are not, in other words. They invite ‘Pastor Smith’ from the ‘Second Baptist Church.’ These are signals.

Jacobsen: What are suggestive alternatives that would not make them in violation of the Saguenay decision?

Prasad: Number one, do not begin the meeting with a prayer, they should follow the law. Otherwise, it is illegal. If you want to follow the law, they can begin the meetings in a moment of silence. It can mean something different for everyone else. Also, we can give land acknowledgements. It is not something as in vogue in other parts of the country as in Vancouver. It is a good conversation to have; one of us should be leading it, for Indigenous voices regarding colonization. It is something for them to consider.

Jacobsen: When it comes to the number of municipalities studied, how many are we talking about here?

Prasad: So, there’s a lot [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Prasad: We’re doing the top 50 municipalities in every province across the country. It can be weird sometimes. Nova Scotia only has 48 municipalities in the entire place.

Jacobsen: When it comes to the magnitude of the number of municipalities studied by others and yourself, what are some of the most egregious cases, but the trend lines noticed throughout the country too?

Prasad: Cities like Hamilton and Halifax are violating the Saguenay decision.

Jacobsen: What about other than Ontario as the worst and Hamilton as the most egregious?

Prasad: There are differences with the inaugural council meeting session. Inaugural sessions are the first council meeting happening after an election. They’ll have a bagpiper bagpipe people into a room with much pomp and circumstance. You have people talking about different things. That’s what is interesting because most of the prayers happen at inaugural sessions. It is a way people can solemnize the occasion to add to the pomp and circumstance of the meeting. So, the vast majority of them happen in inaugural sessions.

Jacobsen: What about challenges to those majority inaugural session municipal prayers? In other words, what has been the reaction to challenges? What is the success rate if you happen to know it?

Prasad: I do not know if any municipalities have been challenged. Most quietly stopped doing it. They recognized that it was illegal, and should stop. I don’t know if any have had a Human Rights Commission challenge or lawsuit against them.

Jacobsen: Would citizens be able to take those formal challenges to court?

Prasad: I am pretty sure. If they want to bring a court case to directly challenge Saguenay through a formal lawsuit, then the municipality would have to stop.

Jacobsen: To be clear, the Saguenay decision set a precedent putting the challenge on the side of people who would be more freethought oriented. It places the side of the court, in general, or the side of the law on the side of freethinkers.

Prasad: Yes, absolutely. So, it was stated as a democratic imperative.

Jacobsen: Wow.

Prasad: [Laughing] If we do not have the state neutrality, then we don’t really have a true democracy. From Ontario, I have the list. The real big ones, Markham, Kitchener, Richmond Hill, Burlington, and Hamilton are the big ones.

Jacobsen: For the readers who may not know, who are the worst in all of the other provinces and the territories as a shorthand of the research for them?

Prasad: Most of them are small towns. It would be, in British Columbia, Victoria, for sure. That’s the most relevant. All of the big cities in Alberta with the worst as Wetaskiwin. Population like 12,000 or something. Saskatchewan, it is pretty good – mostly small towns. And most small towns do pretty good. The big place is Kindersley. In Manitoba, it is definitely Winnipeg. The biggest, as noted, in Ontario is Hamilton. We skipped Quebec and went to Nova Scotia. We are looking for French-speaking volunteers.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Ranil.

Prasad: No problem!

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Professor Burge 2 – Research Questions and Answers, and Themes

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/07/21

Professor Ryan Burge‘s website states: “I am an Assistant Professor of Political Science as well as the Graduate Coordinator at Eastern Illinois University. I teach in a variety of areas, including American institutions, political behavior, and research methods. My research focuses largely on the intersection between religiosity and political behavior (especially in the American context). Previously, I have completed an appointment as a post doctoral research fellow at the Paul Simon Public Policy Institute in Carbondale, Illinois. While there I was an adviser on issues of survey methodology and polling, as well as providing data collection and analysis.

I have published over a dozen articles in a number of well regarded peer reviewed journals including Politics & Religion, the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, the Review of Religious Research, the Journal of Religious Leadership, RepresentationPolitics, Groups, and Identities, the Journal of Communication and Religion, the Journal of Religion, Media and Digital Culture and the Social Science Computer Review. 

In addition, my research has been covered in a variety of media outlets including The New York Times, The Washington Post, CNN, NBC, Vox, 538, BuzzFeed News, Al-Jazeera, Christianity Today, Religion News Service, The Daily Mail, Deseret News, World Magazine, Relevant, and C-SPAN. I am the co-founder and frequent contributor to Religion in Public, a forum for scholars of religion and politics to make their work accessible to a more general audience.

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about some of the research questions, the answers, and the themes following from them.

*Interview conducted on June 17, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: We will focus on three things. The research question, the research question and some of the outcomes of it, and then some of the deeper meanings of some of those thematic elements of it. What were the main research questions asked in the set of research on the various religious and non-religious groups with an emphasis for the audience today on the Nones or the non-religious?

Professor Ryan Burge: Social science is just starting to tackle the idea that the Nones are not a monolithic bloc. We break them into 3 groups. There are different types of Nones. This is based on a survey question about present religion with 11 options: Protestant, Catholic, Mormon, Orthodox, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, and Jewish, and the last 3 options are Atheist, Agnostic, and “Nothing in particular.” So, how you respond to the question puts you in the None group, if you say, “Atheist,” “Agnostic,” or “Nothing in particular,” then you’re in the None category. They’re in the None category. But when we look at the differences between “Atheist,” “Agnostic,” or “Nothing in particular,” we find those groups are dramatically different from political partisanship, views of abortion, political activity, a lot of those are different on those things. Yet, we see them as a bloc as N-O-N-E-S, but they have differences based on the identification within it.

Jacobsen: Some of these demographics will have political view fallout. In that, if someone takes a religious stance, it is seen as a moral stance. That will impact social issues, political issues, and human rights issues. What were some of the findings around those differences of social, political, and human rights opinions in this research between, for instance, the atheists, agnostics, and the nothing in particulars, and, as far as I could tell, with White Evangelicals and Mormons?

Burge: Yes, on almost every measure, if we look at a public opinion question White Evangelicals are the furthest right in the religious spectrum; atheists are the furthest left on the religious spectrum. If we say to White Evangelicals, “Racial problems in the U.S. are rare, isolated situations,” 38% say this is the case. 9.6% of atheists say this is the case. You see this breakdown often. White Evangelicals take the more conservative positions with abortion, marriage, racism, and the police. White Evangelicals are the most conservative and Republican groups. Atheists are the most liberal. Agnostics are one or two steps away from them. Nothing in particular fall in the middle of the spectrum on many of the issues. Atheists are liberal; White Evangelicals are conservative.

Jacobsen: Does this play into the political context of the United States now?

Burge: The Democratic Party has a big problem now. It is the party of everyone else. Republicans are the party of White Christians. While the Democratic Party is none of the above, you’ve got Black Protestants who are theologically conservative and politically liberal. Atheists are theologically liberal and politically liberal. The theological unions are just mashed together. It is easier to be a Republican today. You only have to hit “Christian, White.” If Democrat, you have to hit all these different things. A democrat has to appeal to a wider demographic; it is harder than simply appealing to White Evangelicals.

Jacobsen: For those who are in Canada, there is a large contingent who are fans of Margaret Atwood. The first president of Humanist Canada was Dr. Henry Morgentaler almost singlehandedly won the reproductive rights for women. This is a tradition here. Also, it is a subtle and highly intelligent author’s literary works with Margaret Atwood, who has been hugely impactful. How is a religion of the various views mentioned – White Evangelical and Mormons versus atheists and agnostics – on women’s bodily autonomy and abortion? This is a political issue. Fundamentally, it is a human right issue.

Burge: In the United States, we had this interesting thing happen. In the 1970s, abortion was something Republicans and Democrats agreed on it. Even religious groups agreed, for instance, the Southern Baptist Convention is the largest Evangelical organization in America today. They said, ‘We don’t love the ruling. But it is a decision a woman needs to make with her doctor.” It has been ‘weaponized’ or utilized as a wedge to push Evangelicals to the edge with the ‘powers that be.’ With abortion, we se an interesting thing. Religious people are less willing to extend abortion rights. But the share of Republicans who are in favour of abortion in the case of rape and incest is lower than it has ever been. It used to be 85%. It is still relatively high at roughly 70%. While at the same time, the Democratic Party driven by irreligious people without any religious affiliation have become more permissive of abortion in any circumstance, e.g., doesn’t have the money, doesn’t like the man, etc. We have seen them become more supportive of abortion across the board. It is important to understand this across political life in America. A lot of Evangelicals are pro-life. Very few Americans, only 1/3rd of Evangelicals in American want to make abortion completely illegal. So, the majority of White Evangelicals are okay with abortion in some circumstances. It is the loudest voices on abortion are the most extreme voices on abortion. Those ones opposed to abortion in any circumstance are the ones making the most noise. The reality: White Evangelicals are opposed to abortion. The caveat is they have a nuanced view, while being right of center. While your atheists and agnostics are in favour of abortion across the board, even for not having enough money or not wanting more kids, things like that.

Jacobsen: How does this 1/3rd compare to atheists, agnostics, and Black Protestants?

Burge: [Laughing] Super interesting, Black Protestants’ views on the Bible are almost the same as White Evangelicals. The Democratic Party is so interesting because it has to appeal to Black Protestants who are also opposed to same-sex marriage while appealing to atheists and agnostics who are in favour of same-sex marriage. It is hard to appeal to Black Protestants who are important in Democratic politics, while saying to atheists and agnostics, “We are the party for you.” Groups vote for the democrats because the Republicans are a worse option for them, whether Black Protestants, atheists, or agnostics. The Democratic Party doesn’t do this perfectly on every party, whether economics or social justice, because it becomes the party of default; they’re not Republicans. It makes it hard to run for president.

Jacobsen: What does this mean in terms of the deeper themes coming out of this research? What are we taking home if this was an academic presentation, as the message?

Burge: Speaking academically, we need to sit down and think carefully as to what it means to be an atheist and to be an agnostic. They are relatively small, about 6% of the population each. To take on the “atheist” label, it means to take on all the baggage. Americans have very negative views of atheists. In fact, there are on the most disliked groups in America today. Americans like Congress more than they like atheists.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Burge: To take on the label, it means that you’re willing to take on all the junk going on with the negative things. In America, I have not seen polls on this. My thinking would be agnostics are disliked, but not as disliked as atheists are, for instance. We need to think carefully about what makes people go all the way and say, “I am an atheist.” We know; they are a very special American. They are very educated, have high incomes, are very engaged politically, and are very liberal. I would say this is a potent cocktail if you’re a Democrat in America today running in an urban district with a lot of atheists. It becomes a voting bloc for you. You can rely on it. As they grow in size, and as the stigma goes away, as it is, it means those people will have an easier time getting elected saying that they are atheist and getting people to vote and campaign for them. It is not something that we have seen before in American politics. Not a single politician has ever run for Congress and won on the backs of atheists and agnostics. We will see this moving forward because they are more vocal, larger, more active. We will see candidates realize this is the way that they get there. It is big from an academic standpoint and a policy standpoint. We will see a shift in American politics with openly atheist candidates who will try to appeal to atheist voters. Something that we haven’t seen before.

Jacobsen: Sir, thank you for your time.

Burge: Absolutely.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Takudzwa 31 – Time Capsule to “Cornelius Press”

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/07/20

Takudzwa Mazwienduna is the informal leader of Zimbabwean Secular Alliance and a member of the Humanist Society of Zimbabwe. This educational series will explore secularism in Zimbabwe from an organizational perspectiveand more. Here we talk about Article 61(3) of the Zimbabwean Constitution.

*Interview conducted on July 20, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Article 61(3)(a) of the Zimbabwean Constitution (2013) states, “Broadcasting and other electronic media of communication have freedom of establishment, subject only to State licensing procedures that…” I want to break some of this down some more. What are the main forms of “electronic media of communication” in Zimbabwe?

Takudzwa Mazwienduna: These would include radio stations that were once underground because they wouldn’t get licenses and online news publications.

Jacobsen: What does “freedom of establishment” mean here?

Mazwienduna: It means the right to get a license and legally exist as a media company in Zimbabwe. This was impossible before the 2013 constitution making process.

Jacobsen: How were “electronic media” and the “freedom of establishment” important for the foundation of Cornelius Press and for the media relevant to the Zimbabwean Secular Alliance and the Humanist Society of Zimbabwe?

Mazwienduna: We started Cornelius Press in South Africa which is a lot more liberal when it comes to media policy than Zimbabwe.

Jacobsen: Article 61(3)(a) of the Zimbabwean Constitution (2013) states, “…are necessary to regulate the airwaves and other forms of signal distribution; and…” If the government is a military state, what does “regulate the airwaves and other forms of signal distribution” mean in Zimbabwe? How are the rights and freedoms of expression curtailed in the context of a military state and then in a country with a renewed constitution (2013) as an effort to escape its colonial history?

Mazwienduna: The Zimbabwean military seldom respects the law. This regulation is one of those loopholes that the government loves pointing to after abused journalists take it to court.

Jacobsen: If still leaving the colonial history, what does this mean for the differential application of military force against protesting white Zimbabweans and black Zimbabweans if at all?

Mazwienduna: The 2013 constitutional reforms were a sham for the most part. They respect military force in Zimbabwe now rather than the law. Even the soldiers usually let you know when you try to refer to the constitution while they are abusing you, “The law doesn’t work here. You go to the police if you want to talk about the law, not here.”

Jacobsen: Article 61(3)(b) of the Zimbabwean Constitution (2013) states, “…are independent of control by government or by political or commercial interests.” Regarding (61(3)(a) and (b), how are the “State licensing procedures” fair and unfair?

Mazwienduna: The bureaucracy and corruption surrounding the licensing process make it very unfair. Nothing is that straight forward with the Zimbabwean government.

Jacobsen: What do you see as a way forward to bring the reality closer to the constitution of 2013?

Mazwienduna: Civic awareness should be raised and Zimbabwean citizens should unapologetically inquire about constitutionalism with every government policy or operation. They should pressure government institutions to be accountable and daily atrocities by the military should be reported and condemned

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Takudzwa.

Mazwienduna: It’s always a pleasure Scott.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Takudzwa 30 – If You Can Hear Me, Then You Can or Can’t Heed Me, But Don’t Silence Me

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/07/18

Takudzwa Mazwienduna is the informal leader of Zimbabwean Secular Alliance and a member of the Humanist Society of Zimbabwe. This educational series will explore secularism in Zimbabwe from an organizational perspectiveand more.

Here we talk about the freedom of expression within the context of the Zimbabwean 2013 Constitution.

*Interview conducted on July 18, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: The fundamental right to the freedom of expression comes from several important documents and formed, naturally, as a consequence of international (‘globalist’) integration with many nations coming together, which can be influenced by intra-national social dynamics and political life – as the American case shows now, live. What have been some of the intra-national contexts in which Zimbabwe struggled to attain the rights for freedom of expression?

Takudzwa Mazwienduna: The most notable intra national context that has been an impediment to the freedom of expression in Zimbabwe has to be repressive legislation from the colonial times that is still used today. The Zimbabwean constitution has since been reformed but it is more or less irrelevant today since we are literally a military state. The government typically sends soldiers to terrorize citizens who protest or oppose it.

Jacobsen: How were the international contexts, e.g., the United Nations, important for providing a recipe or a framework for provision of the fundamental right of freedom of expression to the Zimbabwean people?

Mazwienduna: They pressured for the 2013 constitution reform. They however have no control on the abuse of these constitutional rights by the state using the military today.

Jacobsen: Article 61(2) of the Zimbabwean Constitution (2013) states, “Every person is entitled to freedom of the media, which freedom includes protection of the confidentiality of journalists’ sources of information.” What is this reflecting in the life of the media of Zimbabwe?

Mazwienduna: Those were some of the constitutional reforms of 2013. The government seldom respects them today and journalists continue to be abducted or arbitrarily arrested. A famous case is that of Itai Dzamara.

Jacobsen: You noted some of the problems for journalists in the past. How about now? What are the issues facing journalists in Zimbabwe now?

Mazwienduna: While their rights have been acknowledged in the constitution, the military force throws it all down the gutter. Journalists continue to be terrorized and victimized today.

Jacobsen: Even with Article 61(2) of the Zimbabwean Constitution, the confidentiality of the journalists’ sources is paramount; unless, one is doing an expose and the source wants to, as someone said recently to me, “Go nuclear.” I find this inclusion in Article 61 subsection (2) interesting because I note the precision of the statements targeting journalists and confidentiality, as well as “sources of information,” i.e., the individuals who are providing information and the data itself. What were the prominent cases involved in the inclusion of this part of the Zimbabwean Constitution? I am fascinated by this inclusion above.

Mazwienduna: There was a case of Baba Jukwa who was like the Zimbabwean version of wikileaks during the Mugabe era. He was a government insider leaking a lot of sensitive information and his court case made media waves when they finally captured him. He might have been working with some government factions however which is probably the reason he got off easy.

Jacobsen: How do journalists in Zimbabwe protect their sources?

Mazwienduna: They seldom mention their sources, but it has a downside with relation to fake news. It is common to hear several unverifiable claims citing anonymous government sources in a single week.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Takudzwa.

Mazwienduna: Always a pleasure Scott.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Interview with Rebekah Woods – Former Message Believer

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/07/15

Rebekah Woods is a Canadian writer, settled on the coast with her spouse and beautiful toddler who fills the hours with challenges unequaled by the healing his life brings. Originally from Ontario, her father moved his family near a large Message Believer’s church when she was ten months old. Her siblings include five brothers and one sister. The struggle to sort memories on paper began in early 2012, but addiction held her back. Clean living away from illicit drugs started November 16, 2016, and continues this present day. She completed a memoir in February 2020. Now her goals are to publish her work, uplift others, publicly speak and build the role of Human Rights Activist. Woods is spiritual/agnostic. You can follow her blog www.rebekahcwoods.ca. Here we talk about The Message of William Marrion Branham in regards to women.

*Interview conducted on July 15, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Let’s focus on the theistic aspects of justification of abuse within the cult of The Message of the late William Marrion Branham. Many will ask themselves, including myself earlier, “What is The Message? Who was William Branham?” Well, dear readers, he’s dead, while The Message theology continues. No need to give a fully outlined account here. What is the relevant theology of The Message and attitude of Branham towards women?

Rebekah Woods: Hi Scott. Thanks for having me. The Message theology states that a woman is below a man, and caused him to sin. They may speak well of their obedient wives, but as a female and a member, should you err for a moment, you could suffer severe consequences. There is little hope crossing the line of mercy. Like me, they could abuse you, shame you, and cast you out. 

Jacobsen: Can you provide some examples in the theology?

Woods: Eve, the first woman, committed sin by seducing a Serpent, the fruit reference just a metaphor. She’s by nature evil and perverted. Also, Jezebel wore makeup and God fed her to the dogs. Branham envisioned souls lost in Hell, moaning, tormented, and wearing green eye shadow. That’s the punishment for modern femininity.

Jacobsen: Can you provide some examples in the speeches, homilies, or statements of Branham? 

Woods: In his words, no one is designed to stoop so low and filthy. He’s encouraged his followers to call women Dog Meat to their faces. He’s been quoted saying that any woman who comes home drunk to her husband isn’t worth a good clean bullet. Branham disapproved of alcohol but I don’t recall such harsh suggestions for the men. He suggested beating his daughter with a 2 by 4 til her hide fell off though I’m afraid in this case, boys suffered equally. 

Jacobsen: Branham taught a doctrine called the Serpent Seed. What was the personal experience for you?

Woods: My cult experiences began as a child and ended in my mid-teens when a Message preacher snapped scissors in my face, yelling Dog Meat! and came at me with his crutches; I heard the doctrine preached but because of my age, was only expected to obey. Upon reading John Collins’ newest book, The Preacher Behind The White Hoods, I’m able to scope its Klan origins and shocking purpose. Growing up, it disturbed me we couldn’t marry any race we chose, and that mixed children were frowned upon. 

Jacobsen: How did this life experience limit worldview inside of The Message about women, girls, and yourself?

Woods: The Message limited worldview in complex ways, more so than a single doctrine. There’s too many to count. Yes, we were the Chosen Seed, we were Bride, yet born female had its disadvantages. There was a general feeling of male superiority. Women could not make life decisions without a man – either her father or her spouse. I didn’t experience the racial side of it because I am Caucasian.

Jacobsen: How did you liberate yourself?

Woods: I’ve always had a curious mind and even from a small child, knew something didn’t seem right. As a girl, my mother told me leaving meant the world would abduct me, rape me, or that I’d sell my body. Part of what she said was right, seeing that I was vulnerable, broke, and uneducated. That being said, I’d already experienced Hell inside the cult and at least the Hell outside had a taste of freedom. So I jumped. I dialed a radio show host in the middle of the night and explained that my family held me hostage with baseball bats. She directed me to Battered Women’s Services.

Jacobsen: What is life like for you now?

Woods: Life is beautiful, imperfect, and safe. I made a life-changing decision in November 2016 to get clean and keep my pregnancy. I am blessed with a loving spouse and father of my child who also grew up in the same Message Church. My toddler son has healed my deepest wounds in ways I can’t describe. Then, I completed a memoir of my secluded childhood and the dangers I faced thereafter. It was the wildest ride! PTSD can sometimes impede my everyday life; however, I believe I have a purpose. I host a small blog, strivetoinspire others on my journey and update those who are interested. They can follow me at www.rebekahcwoods.ca

Jacobsen: How many women and girls simply never get out and remain bound to the rantings and theology of a dead preacher?

Woods: To my knowledge, a fair majority. I’m very grateful to the ladies who left and have joined together. We’ve found our voices and reclaimed our power. Now I deeply wish that Message women will feed their curiosity and hear us!

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Rebekah.

Woods: Thank you very much, Scott.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Jon 12 – The Fourth of July

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/07/07

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New YorkHere we talk about July 4th, public safety and health, religion (naturally), education, and more.

*Interview conducted on July 6, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: We finished the July 4th celebration for America’s Independence Day. We finished Canada Day on July 1st. Some celebrate it. Others do not. I want focus more today on the American context. What is it?

Jonathan Engel: A quick thing talking about some people not celebrating Canada Day in Canada. In the United States, there are many people who do not celebrate July 4th in America. Frederick Douglass, the great philosopher and orator, talked about how the 4th of July does not represent freedom for black people in this country. That was pretty interesting. Yes, here in New York City, beautiful New York City, they were different than they usually are. I live near Union Square in New York City in Manhattan. I have lived in the same building for the last 35 years. Every one of those 35 years until this year, my wife and I, kids, and friends go to the roof and watch the Macy’s 4th of July fireworks. They didn’t do that this year. Primarily, they didn’t want people to watch them. New York was really the first place to get clobbered by coronavirus. One, it is the crossroads of the world. We get so many visitors from so many places. Before we knew what was happening, we were infected. Also, because we live on top of each other, we are millions of people [Laughing] living in a pretty small area. We jam together on buses, on subways, and jam together in stores. We live in apartment buildings that have people constantly in contact on elevators and hallways and lobbies. It was understandable that we got hit before anyone else did. But New York, right now, is one of the few places in the United States has really “flattened the curve.” That’s because we’ve done what we were supposed to do, what the science says you need to do.

What Europe found out, we should wear masks and practice social distancing. We’ve stayed inside. In fact, we are still not fully open. Many states opened up a month ago. We still don’t have indoor dining, indoor bars, allowed. Even though, we have flattened the curve. We are going to go very slowly to reopen these things, as we have seen what happened in other places. I got the sense of this on the 4th of July. There is a green market, a local farmer’s market, in the middle of New York City. Believe it or not.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Engel: Vendor from Long Island, Westchester, or New jersey, who come in 5 days a week and sell their stuff. My wife and I went into the green market to buy some stuff. They used to put out their stuff. If you wanted apples, then they would have crates. You pick the ones that you want and go out and pay for it. Now, they don’t let you do that anymore. You tell them, “I want 5 Granny Smith apples.” They put them in a bag. You pat for them. Everyone in the green market had masks. All vendors had a sign, “No masks, no service.” We have stayed pretty good. There have been a few times that I have seen people without masks on the street. For the most part, a solid 90% of people wear masks. I read something the other day. A guy from South Carolina, where it is spiking, the virus. He said that he lives near the resort area of Hilton Head, South Carolina and let him take a walk around. He didn’t go out for long, about 90% of the people were not wearing masks. So, we take it seriously here. New York is one of the least religious states in the country. New York City is not a very religious city, as cities go. Here in New York, we like to do what Tom Friedman said, which should be Biden’s motto: respect science, respect nature, and respect each other.

It requires a belief in science and nature, “No amount of prayer will protect anybody from it.” We need to respect science, and each other, when you live on top of each other. Paul Simon had a song, “One man’s ceiling is another man’s floor”:

It’s just apartment house rules
So all you ‘partment house fools
Remember: one man’s ceiling
Is another man’s floor
One man’s ceiling
Is another man’s floor

It’s true. You have got to respect people who are right next to you. You can’t say, “I can do whatever I want.” You don’t want to be blasting music and doing step-dancing at 3 o’clock in the morning because there is somebody underneath you. Our belief and freedom encompass responsibility to those around us. It is so necessary and required, but not in many states. Yesterday, in The New York Times, in Texas, it is much more religious and much more conservative. The governor of Texas who is a Republican and conservative recently put out an edict saying, ‘Everybody, you have to wear a mask outside in Texas.’ He is getting pilloried, “How dare you stomp on my freedom!”

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Engel: “You can’t tell me what to do.” Government tells you all the time. It is good that it does. Government tells you to take a hunk of your money in the form of taxes. Government tells you you can’t speed in a residential area. Government says it’s not your right o drive if you’re blind drunk. Even the most elemental things, if you walk into the store, you can’t walk out of the store without stuff that you didn’t pay for, ‘What about my freedom?” No! If we are going to have any kind of civilized society with respect for other people, respecting each other, we are going to have to have certain rules. In a pandemic, one rule might be wearing a mask if you go outside. HERE IN New York, we have, for the most part, most people, not all, in New York City understand that. When I live in an apartment building with 30 stories and 270 apartments in it, there are signs when you walk into the elevator. One side says, “Two people per elevator only.” For a while, it was only one. The other side says, “Please respect neighbours and building staff and wear a mask in all common areas.” I have not seen a single person disobey that. I am pretty sure. People in New York City love freedom as much as people in Texas. Like Freidman said, though, “Respect science, respect nature, and respect each other.” That’s why I think even with the worst outbreak in the country; we have it under control. While in other parts, it has skyrocketed.

Jacobsen: What other factors are we not taking into account when we think about the impacts of religious faith on some of the issues within a pandemic? We were noting with Massachusetts. It is the most educated and the least religious; Mississippi, it is the most religious and the least educated. Those don’t seem like accidents or coincidences. Although, they are only correlations. We have situations in which people will replace knowledge of the world, facts, with sensibilities, with unevidenced belief structures. When crises happen, they will invoke them. When they invoke them, it leaves them adrift in dealing with the real situation. To take on the garbs of faith, it is, in many cases, equivalent, in terms of actual good, to doing nothing.

Engel: Yes! Absolutely, what they are doing is tending to their emotions and not to their intellect, because it might make them feel better to think, “God will protect me.” It is tending to the scariness, ‘I do not want to be scared anymore. So, I am going to fall back on the things that do not make me scared anymore.’ It is using the emotions and not the intellect. It is easier to just believe, but it is not going to help you. Yes, you see this. Some of this is anecdotal. I would love to see real research done on this. From the anecdotes, so many religious people have died or have had loved ones died because they said, “Of course, we are going to go to our church service.” By the way, church services are one of the biggest superspreader events. People are sitting close together, a large group of people. There’s a lot of singing and chanting, etc. Yet, the pressure to open up in so many parts of the United States has been from religious groups saying, “It is essential. We are an essential service. People need this. They need their comfort.” Of course, people need to be comforted and need to see positive things, but they need reality. They need to be told the truth. I finished reading a book by Erik Larson, The Splendid and the Vile: A Saga of Churchill, Family, and Defiance During the Blitz.

It is about Churchill and the Battle of Britain, when Churchill spoke to the British people. He told them the truth when the blitz was underway. Hi oratory was underway. ‘We will fight them on the beaches. We will fight them on the streets.” He inspired people while telling them the truth, ‘This si going to be really bad. This is going to be really hard. It is going to take all our resources, emotional and physical, to combat.’ But he told them the truth. People may need comfort. But when you say, “Don’t worry, go out there, don’t wear a mask, don’t social distance, sing out here in the choir, God will protect you.” They are not telling them the truth. So, people are dying. This country, now, is pitiable. It is really depressing. We really are pitiable because we don’t have the level of critical thinking and critical analysis that you need. That human beings need to make the decisions in order to protect themselves and protect everybody else from this illness.

Jacobsen: What do you think about this re-funnelling of finances to religious institutions in the United States instead of the intended good of public services to slow the spread of coronavirus?

Engel: Oh, it’s horrible. It is a never-ending fight. My father was one of the plaintiffs in the court case in 1972, which outlawed prayer in public school. It was a fight to maintain the separation of church and state ever since. To look back at the founding documents of the country, if you look at the people who founded this country, James Madison wrote the Bill of Rights, the first ten amendments to the Constitution; so, he wrote the First Amendment in which it says, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…” Back in the day, he said the separation of church and state is to keep forever from our shores the bloody battles that have poured blood on the soils of Europe for centuries. He said, ‘Here’s the reason for separation of church and state.’ People now say, ‘What are you talking about separating church and state? I don’t see this in the Constitution.’ These are, basically, Christian nationalists who want this to be an avowedly Christian country against our founders. Pouring resources into churches and religious schools, you can see how this hurts us in a situation like this because people don’t understand science. If you don’t believe in evolution, you can’t understand biology. If you can’t understand biology, then you can’t understand science at all. In a way, it is going backwards. It is a tremendous battle in this country. I belong to an organization called Americans United for the Separation of Church and State. It exists because there are people who see: when government puts money into religion, society goes backwards.

Jacobsen: Jon! Thank you so much for your time.

Engel: Okay, Scott, speak to you soon!

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Interview with the G.D. Basson – Administrator, “The Angry African Atheist”

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/07/01

G.D. Basson is the Administrator of “The Angry African Atheist.” Here we talk about the background, religion, and how to become involved in some of the community in South Africa.

*Interview conducted on July 1, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What was geographic, cultural, linguistic and religious personal and family background?

G.D. Basson: I was born and raised as a white, English speaker in South Africa, mom is Methodist and dad is a bad catholic. Sunday school was rather short-lived and I didn’t even get to my first holy communion, mostly due to my parents being sick of having to get up early on Sunday mornings with a hangover. The church was then relegated to Easter and Christmas until that eventually fell away too.

Jacobsen: How did these influence you growing up?

Basson: Privileged is probably the most accurate word to use, I grew up in a loving home and was taught to be fairly critical in my thinking. Thanks to my parent’s lazy religious outlook I was able to explore religions from a relatively early age.

Jacobsen: When did religion become less tenable as a life philosophy for you?

Basson: I started questioning religion in early high school, having understood that it was my eternal soul that was at stake I spent a fair amount of time researching different religions, from the Abrahamic to Zen Buddhism and everything in between. At the time I settled on LaVeyan Satanism though can honestly say that this was more to be different than actual honest belief. From there I had some issues with drugs and was sent to rehab, as tends to be the case in South Africa their “treatment” was very much based off of the narcotics anonymous program and I found myself becoming a bible bashing young-earth creationist. This continued for around 2 or 3 years before realising that I had simply replaced one unhealthy obsession with another. I re-evaluated the evidence and came to the same conclusion I had as a teenager, namely that there is not sufficient evidence in any deity to allay my doubts.

Jacobsen: What are some benefits of having an online community page for atheists?

Basson: Living in a country where the vast majority of the population believes in the Christian doctrine in one form or another, along with the persecution that comes with that situation can leave one feeling alone and unappreciated. communities online are a way to join like-minded people together.

Jacobsen: Why found “The Angry African Atheist”? What is its current purpose, scope of operation, and reach?

Basson: The purpose of founding The Angry African Atheist is to promote healthy discourse surrounding current events affecting Africans in general and South Africans specifically using satire and humour to engage with members. In terms of scope, I am the only person working on this project, unfortunately having to juggle a day job has made this a lot more difficult than anticipated. In terms of reach, the page currently has 74 likes but would obviously like to expand that exponentially. The long term plan is to make a career out of writing about current events in a funny, satirical and engaging way in order to highlight injustice and impart the truth.

Jacobsen: What do you hope for its growth and extension in reach as we move into 2021?

Basson: This is a difficult question to answer. what I’d like is the opportunity to write full-time, producing content on a daily basis and assisting the atheist community in Africa in a meaningful way. unfortunately juggling a day job makes this an exceptionally difficult task. realistically I’d like to produce more content and be able to at least start earning a fair income from ads etc. once I am able to do that I would be more comfortable looking at the possibility of quitting the day job and committing myself full time to this.

Jacobsen: How can people get involved in the freethinking African community?

Basson: We tend to be a friendly bunch, unfortunately, there isn’t much of an offline support structure in this country. The best place to start would be to join a few Facebook groups.

Jacobsen: What are other recommendations of webpage, groups, or people to keep an eye out for?

Basson: South African Atheist Movement https://www.facebook.com/groups/SAAM1 is a good resource with a diverse and amicable membership. The Angry African Atheist also has a blog, which can be found here: http://theangryafricanatheist.blogspot.com.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Mr. Basson.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Jon 11 – A Misstake

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/07/01

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New YorkHere we talk about Mississippi, the Confederacy, Reconstruction, and more.

*Interview conducted on June 29, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, this is going to leave New York a bit, not only New York City, but New York State. You had some considerations of confederate representation in a flag and then the representation of religious language or the God concept in association with those. What is going on in the state of Mississippi? Why is this a problem?

Jonathan Engel: The state of Mississippi was the last state in the union to retain a piece of the Confederacy on its state flag. In the early 20th century, people in the South who never got over the Civil War started carrying and showing the confederate battle flag. I am not sure as to why it is that flag as opposed to the Confederacy, but this was a flag brought into battle when confederates fought American troops. It has become a big symbol of oppression for a lot of people and white supremacy for a lot of people. So, it has become really controversial. A few years ago, the state of South Carolina agreed that they would no longer fly the flag in the state capital alongside the American flag. They took it down. It was a big deal. The last state that kept doing this was Mississippi, which had a quarter of its state flag that confederate battle flag. So, every time an African American walks into the Mississippi state legislature. They see the state flag and think, “Great, I am a member of this state. Yet, they are flying a flag in a positive way the enslavement of my ancestors.” Obviously, it is an affront, but, to me, as an American. I regard the Confederacy as a treasonous organization. That tried to destroy the United States. It took up arms against American soldiers.

There has been pressure, a lot of rethinking in this country, regarding the Black Lives Matter movement and in terms of racial equality, etc. So, they had a vote over the weekend in Mississippi. They voted that that would no longer be their flag. That, from now on, that flag would no longer be their flag. They would design anew one. The law that passed was saying the new flag only not contain the confederate flag and somewhere on its design, “In God We Trust.” Now, in God we trust, it became the United States national motto in the 1950s as an anti-communist thing, as opposed to the original motto of the country, which is E Pluribus Unum. It means “Out of many, one.” So, they’ve done that. This is the law. I heard about this. I said, “Is it really progress? A lot of liberals and progressives, I understand why, but I think they’ve forgotten something. They are celebrating, “Oh boy, the state of Mississippi is finally getting with the program by getting rid of the confederate flag.” I go, “But yeah, they’ve gone from disrespecting African Americans to disrespecting freethinkers like me.”

Not everybody trusts in some mythical deity. There are quite a few people in this country who don’t trust in it. Unfortunately, we don’t – as the saying goes – punch our weight. There are a lot of people who are secular nonbelievers in this country, but it is kind of taboo to come out and say it. So, we don’t punch our weight in terms of, for example, the discussion happening now. It is about Joe Biden and who the Vice President will be in the coming election. Some African Americans are saying, “It should be an African American.” He has already promised that it will be a woman. I don’t hear anybody looking to say, “We need to get our base of freethinkers.” Part of this is due to atheists not being too organized. They say organizing atheists is like herding cats. There’s not too much organization, but, still, this bothers me. That my fellow progressives, my fellow liberals, would look at a law like that and say, “Hey, wait a minute, okay, great. You’re getting rid of the battle flag. But why are you disrespecting the fellow freethinkers in this country?”

Jacobsen: If you take an individual who harbours the amount of pride, not in the sense of hubris, but a personal sense of worth in a confederate history for them, they engage in the various re-enactments or the inverse history imaginary re-enactments in which the confederates win. What does this kind of representation in a flag mean to you? Furthermore, if they are religious or have an adherence to some form of God concept, what does that mean to them? In other words, this is taking the other point of view.

Engel: It is very important for people to know and remember that many of the confederate symbolism, which people say is important to them, etc. Those things became popular among the average people in the South long after the Civil War ended. This was post-Reconstruction. When the Civil War first ended, the United States of America put in place a number of reforms in southern states to enforce the rights of black people to vote. Black people were elected to public office. Then a massive backlash took place, the northern states decided it was better placating the South and allowing them to overturn Reconstruction, so began the era of Jim Crow. The use of the confederate flag and the monuments came from that era, not immediately post-Civil Era, but more like the early 20th century, when the Klu Klux Klan formed and whites in the South said, “We are moving back to the way it was.” Many northern whites decided, “It is more trouble than it’s worth. Let them do what they want.” When people say, “This is my heritage.” I want to know, “Heritage for what?” Heritage from the time of the early 20th century when black people got lynched on a regular basis. That’s what you’re really defending here. Even the defence of the South, I don’t see how you can come up with any kind of defence of slavery as an institution.

In Nazi Germany, after WWII, West Germany after WWII, Germans did a real self-reflection about the horrors, but that never happened in the American South. It was, ‘No, we’re proud.” If you saw people with a Nazi flag, you’d collapse, but with a confederate battle flag, ‘It’s common. It’s their heritage.” To people who say, ‘It is my heritage,” I say, “Take a look inside yourself, do you want part of the heritage of ancestors who were slaveholders? Break free of that, you don’t have to endorse that.” There’s something that all of our ancestors did that we were probably ashamed of it, but my ancestors [Laughing] weren’t in this country until after slavery was abolished. But still! Acknowledge that those are wrong, I’m not saying that you have to take personal responsibility. You weren’t alive then, but, by the same token, you have to take personal responsibility for your actions now. Flying a confederate battle flag says to the American neighbour, you’re still under the thumb. It’s not your country; it’s not for you. There’s no way of getting around that. Find something else for heritage, I love southern food. Don’t fly the flag, when you fly that flag, you’re saying to black people, “This country isn’t yours.” We have been struggling with this since day 1 of this country. It is time that we made greater progress, at least, in overcoming that.

Jacobsen: If we take the class or set of all minds, then it is not a mind. Similarly, groups are statistical artifacts. In that, you can find very strong general trends if not weak general trends amongst common groupings. To take the opposing view once more, what if an individual African American or someone who comes later as a black American in general doesn’t care about a confederate flag or is a secularist or secular humanist who doesn’t care about statements about the God concept or statements utilizing the God concept in flags or elsewhere? What, in the cases of individuals, of those types who would amount to, probably, statistical outliers to those classes or groupings? What would be their point of view? What would be a reasonable response to them?

Engel: A reasonable response might be – and I don’t presume to speak for anyone, I think their point of view, “Listen, I live my life. I do what I want. Why do I care about some stupid flag or what it says on some stupid flag?” My answer, “Somebody might be offended.” It violates my rights. You should care that my rights are being violated even if you don’t care that your own rights are being violated. I’ll tell you a story where I learned that once. I went to school on Long Island. It was getting to December. By the way, as a little aside here [Laughing], I love Christmas. I love the lights and the trees. I love how the city lights up. I love going to Rockefeller Center and seeing the big tree. When I went to high school, I had a lot of friends who were Jewish. But I also had friends who weren’t. Somebody said, ‘Hey! Let’s go get a tree and put it up in the courtyard. It’ll be fun.” I thought, ‘It’ll be harmless.” I was speaking to a teacher who I knew and respected, a really good guy.

I said, “Some kids are going to do this.” He said, “You shouldn’t. If one person in this school, if one student, or teacher for that matter, in this school is made to feel that they don’t belong here because of that tree, then that’s the reason why you shouldn’t do it.” It doesn’t have to be everybody or you. Okay, you’re not offended by it. Fine, but if one person is offended to the point, “This is not me, doesn’t represent me, or this school.” I thought about it for a bit and said, “You know what, you’re absolutely right.” And he was. So, a person can feel like they don’t care or doesn’t matter much. Think about the atheist or freethinker who does care, or the black person who does care about the battle flag, you’re defending their rights. I don’t have to be black to think black lives matter. I don’t have to be gay to say, “Gay rights are civil rights.” I don’t have to be an immigrant to say, “No hate, no fear, immigrants are welcome here.” You don’t have to be personally offended by this to defend the rights of people who are.

Jacobsen: What is it like in the state of New York for some of this stuff?

Engel: It depends on where you go. New York City and the rest of New York State [Laughing] are very different. Although, I think atheists and agnostics are still like the last people who it is the last people to dump on. You can’t dump on gay people anymore. But people think – even liberals – it is okay to dump on atheists and agnostics. In the city, it is better because it is a very cosmopolitan place. There are a lot of different viewpoints here. When you go upstate, it is different. A Supreme Court case from about 5 years ago was from New York state that was a horrible decision. It drives me crazy. It was called Town of Greece v. Galloway, where they started every town hall meeting with a Protestant minister. The Supreme Court upheld it, saying, ‘That’s okay,’ as long as different religions can give the prayer. It devolved into different arguments. Then the mischievous Satanists who are really freethinkers wanted to give a prayer or invocation before the meeting. Then some preacher comes and says, ‘If you do not have by Jesus, then you’re going to hell!’ That came from upstate New York. It is much more conservative and much less pluralistic. I think one of the things for this being in New York is so many different people being here, languages spoken, etc. You better respect everybody’s rights or nobody will respect yours. Upstate where it is more homogeneous, it is a little bit dicier, I think, for freethinkers and atheists.

Jacobsen: Jon, sir, it’s been a pleasure.

Engel: Sir, you’re very welcome, Scott.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Interview with Rev. Tet Gallardo – President & Executive Minister, UU Church of the Philippines

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/06/20

Rev. Tet Gallardo is the President & Executive Minister of the UU Church of the Philippines (National Office). Here we talk about Unitarian Universalism within the context of the Philippines.

*Interview conducted on June 19, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Was Unitarian Universalism part of earlier life in any way?

Rev. Theresa (Tet) Gallardo:  Indigenous values and princples were much more radical to our colonizers. Our radical hospitality, tolerance to diversity, and beloved communities were generally peaceful (we did not have constantly warring communities) and had a sophisticated order that was covered by cultural covenants. UU values resonated with our deepest concerns and that’s how we affiliated ourselves as part of a larger global tapestry of various legacies of resistance to oppression and struggle for justice.

Jacobsen: When it comes to the Philippines, it is a majority Catholic country. How does this influence the internal dynamics of the Unitarian Universalist Church of the Philippines?

Gallardo:  The Vatican City and the Philippines are the last two remaining countries without divorce. Perhaps that’s how tight these two states are. This, despite that we have a now-corrupted culture of philandering husbands, rape jokes, and machisomo and yet we have one of the least gender gap in the world.  Before Duterte disrupted our Western-loving narrative, Western bodies ranked us on top of the world as one of the most close-to-equal in rights between males and females, including the World Economic Forum ranking us 5th in the world in 2016.  You would think we could muster to get a divorce bill through law, but no. That is the influence of the Catholics here, still in control of the narrative of right and wrong with women expected to be sacrificial as the Virgin Mary.  In the UU churches, many women members still feel hijacked by that narrative, athough through the steadfast work of the UU women’s association and liberated women ministers, including LGBTIQA members, we see a mainstream questioning of such narratives and only a few victims are left in the margins. We do not shun Catholic practices like doing the sign of the cross, praying ”in the name of Jesus”, and participation in fun Catholic fiestas, we are still open to all beliefs. 

Jacobsen: How does the Unitarian Universalist Church of the Philippines work with the wider culture in the Philippines while securing its own space and place in the society?

Gallardo:  We do not evangelize about our theology, we work loud and proud on social justice issues and in correcting oppressions we see around us. That is our faith in action, and we don’t do it for show but because we like to work on our own personal integrity.  Every UU has to come to a juncture where they need to clarify their own personal theology as they get exposed to many others.  One doesn’t need church to be called spiritual, one doesn’t need to borrow a common creed to validate one’s own experience, one doesn’t need religion to be religious about humanitarian and ecological justice. UUs have a special calling to be in covenanted community helping one another become kinder.

Jacobsen: What is the general theology of UUism within such a populated nation-state as the Philippines?

Gallardo:  UUs in the Philippines generally believe in covenants, conversations, and causes. Perhaps the fourth C is coffee!. All are welcome to come in covenant to uphold our principles espousing love, justice, equality, liberty and interconnectedness.  We believe that our conversations need to be fearless, genuine, constructive and forgiving.  We believe what Dr. Cornel West said, “Justice is what love looks like in public.” We try to work for a society where everyone is free to pursue, life, liberty and happiness while constructing systems that are just and equitable because our communities are not isolated, we are part of an interconnected web.  As Dr. Martin Luther King said, “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.”  We work on causes that seek to dismantle racism, sexism, and colonialism, among others. In the Philippines, we state our belief in God as ,”God is love.”  Church members are free to interpret that as they deem necessary for their coherence of reality and their experiences.

Jacobsen: How do you translate those principles and sources into activism, community service, and regular services within the UU congregation throughout the year? What are the biggest events?

Gallardo:  This is the only sect that has 90% of its members being farmers in Negros and people living in the shanties of Manila.  We cannot be sustained by our own internal donations, but are sustained by the co-investment of members in the future of the church through labours in worship, community work, and leadership.  Our church structure is formally integrated with an LGBTIQA organization, a women’s organization, a farmers association, and soon an indigenous peoples and artists association. We go and support Pride, HIV/Aids Day, Climate Strike, and Women’s marches.  Our best community services are in providing scholarships to struggling students and loan access for small entrepreneurs.

Jacobsen: What are the general demographics and orientations in theology and philosophy of the Unitarian Universalist Church of the Philippines community/congregation now?

Gallardo: Majority of us are theists, believing in God a a conscious being merciful and loving – the Universalists; panentheists, believing in the force of God as love in all things; and humanists, believing that God works through people’s motivations and interests – the Unitarians.  These three may not be mutually exclusive.  These are from strongly embedded Asian roots with strong pagan and Taoist influences even now.  

Jacobsen: Has the Duterte political context changed some of the issues of immediate social and economic import for ordinary UU community members in the Unitarian Universalist Church of the Philippines?

Gallardo:  Duterte has helped shift the rhetoric away from American colonialism where you needed to love all things white while leaving us culturally bankrupt except for the intense consumerist culture of imperial neoliberal capitalism with corrupt corporate cultures.  He hasn’t helped in the least bit deconstruct our Chinese ties.  The Philippines has the oldest Chinatown in the world and its culture is well-loved among Filipinos who are highly exposed to Hong Kong, Taiwanese and some Southern China cultural threads.  On the other hand, the founder in the Philippines has died by extrajudicial killing in 1988 during the honeymoon phase with Cory Aquino’s budding democracy after kicking out the dictator Ferdinand Marcos, so you can imagine how much we have learned early on that the lifting of dictatorship in the Philippines does not equate to the human security of farmers and poor folk.  Farmers here have always felt the coercion and intimidation of the extreme Left who are in armed struggle against the government.  No one can say for sure who killed our founder Rev. Toribio Quimada as he had made a few enemies.  Every president of this country has had to come under the mercies of the Catholic Church, the oligarchy, and the military – this is known as the triangle of power.   Duterte has managed to defuse the hold of the Catholic Church by exposing its corruption and connivance with government corruption; defang the oligarchy by showing political will in punishing tax evaders and exposing corrupt deals with past administrations; and gain the loyalty of the military with incentive schemes.  Every president has had to come to the juncture of extending their terms through Charter Change courtesy of military ambitions, but as with every president before him, he’s toed the line and refrained from initiating a process that could perpetuate his power.  The church will continue to dissociate with seditious forces and any anti-state armed struggle in creating new ways of focusing the discourse on the oppressed.   In Negros Island where the National Office of the UUCP is located, there have been eight (8) extra-judicial killings only in my first year in office as president.  These persons were mostly pro-Duterte – 2 journalists, 2 lawyers, and 4 government officials.   There’s a very different view of Duterte on the ground.

Jacobsen: What are some of the most meaningful times for you, as a leader of and within the community?

Gallardo:  I feel like an outsider most times.  I am Tagalog-speaking holding office in a Cebuano-speaking Island. I am the first lesbian minister in the Philippines to come out.  I am not from the families who built this church from the ground — I serve 3rd or 4th generation UUs, but I am the first of my family.  So to be welcomed in this faith and elected as its President speaks volumes on who are the church members I am serving.  They are people who live their faith and believe in the principles with their whole hearts.  It is heartening, humbling, and inspiring.  I still remember being the first ordained out lesbian minister in the nonWestern world, and that was a powerful moment.  Everytime I feel the acceptance of my being, my imagination, and my vision in leading this church, I am made better as a person, not just by the affirmation that can be rewarding, but by the promise of commitment that each moment holds in which members willingly invest as much as I do.  

Jacobsen: What are some interbelief/interfaith community activities for you?

Gallardo:   We attend interfaith meetings whenever we are invited but there is no particular organization in which we are a member. I have an online Buddhist sangha that meets daily except Sundays.  We pray in ways that do not alienate people of certain faiths.  We invite Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, and others to our church pulpit.  I myself served in the Peacemakers Circle for a number of years. It’s an interfaith group promoting greater peace and understanding. But that was when I was still based in Manila before my election.

Jacobsen: How are the current crop of Filipino/Filipina leaders of the UUs leading the way for LGBTI rights and women’s leadership in the Philippines amongst all religions and faiths?

Gallardo:  We are very visible in Pride marches.  I am about to launch the first Pride Cooperative in the Philippines as its president with some co-founders outside of the UU church.   And I am constantly in touch with LGBT members of various churches all over the world.

Jacobsen: Any recommended books or speakers on UUism?

Gallardo:  UUism is currently undergoing a lot of anti-racism work as a result of the great fallout of 2017 when many of its top leaders resigned from the white supremacy scandals.  So most of our books are undergoing some decentering from white theologies.  But very new books have been written that hold promise in better articulating our narrative:  (1) Widening the Circle of Concern by the UUA Commission on Institutional Change; (2) Centering: Navigating Race, Authenticity, and Power in Ministry, edited by Mitra Rahnema; (3) UUs of Color: Stories of Struggle, Courage, Love and Faith by Yuri Yamamoto (4) Spriit’s Breath by Tet Gallardo (available on Amazon). 

Jacobsen: How can people get involved with the Unitarian Universalist Church of the Philippines or with UUism in general?

Gallardo:  People can start engaging by attending online zoom services or watching streaming services on FB or Youtube.

Jacobsen: Any final feelings or thoughts based on the conversation today?

Gallardo:    UUs in the Philippines are different from many other UUs in the world in that we are more likely to listen and read nonUU readings and presentations in order to better understand our own personal theology.  We are more likely to invite nonUUs in our pulpits and are open to lively spontaneous debates in any assembly.

Jacobsen: Rev. Gallardo, I appreciate the time and the insights.

Gallardo:  Thanks for this opportunity.  Conversations help me filter my own thoughts as well. 

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Interview with Marr Duk – Media Liaison, The Satanic Temple – West Michigan

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/06/19

Marr Duk is the Media Liaison for The Satanic Temple – West MichiganHere we talk about his story and The Satanic Temple.

*Interview conducted on June 9, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Let’s contextualize this, what is the story of coming to TST or The Satanic Temple for you? These origin stories, as superhero movies are prominent now, are helpful in providing a different lens on how people come to different freethought views.  

Marr Duk: Sure, myself, I was a black Southern Baptist growing up. I am originally from Detroit, Michigan. I grew up really strict Baptist, fire and brimstone, sinners are going to hell. I even went to a Christian college when I was younger.

Jacobsen: [Laughing] Which one?

Duk: I’d rather not say. It is a certain black Christian college. I won’t say to protect identity.

Jacobsen: Sure thing.

Duk: I went there, specifically to get closer to God and to study my theology from people that I thought were well-versed in the idea of forgiveness and the idea of Gospel as the New Testament might describe. In going there, it turned me around. I saw people who I did not agree with. I began to think for myself. I embarked on a journey to find the truth. I started to take truth more seriously and decided, “Maybe, I don’t believe this.” I broke away from the Christian church. I was only an atheist for about fours years and then found The Satanic Temple in early 2016. I joined The Satanic Temple in late 2016.

Jacobsen: So, this is a good point as well. Oftentimes, there’s a confusion between various branches of non-theism connected to ethical philosophies or political activism as opposed to a non-theist or atheist view as a neutral standpoint of rejection of, more or less, the supernatural, but in the guise of gods. A satanic temple as an advancement or building on the foundation. What tenets stood out to or for you? I should have this on the record. I do identify as a Satanist. It is a home team interview here. This is an important philosophy, especially in the context of America, with a lot of politically motivated religious fundamentalists.

Duk: You are a Satanist?

Jacobsen: Yes.

Duk:  Of The Satanic Temple or a different branch?

Jacobsen: The Satanic Temple given the commitment to non-theism and around the orientation of some of its political activism with the After School Satan club or the statue of Baphomet to do protestation along the lines of church-state separation in terms of symbolism. Also, the stronger commitment around reproductive health rights for women. I think this is very important. I am a member of Humanist Canada. With Humanist Canada, our first president over 50 years ago was the one individual, almost, who set forth a lot of the rights revolutions and wins for reproductive rights for women, so, I think there’s a common theme in Canada with some of the women’s rights advancements farther along than in America while having some consistent threads in some of these freethought forms of philosophy building off of a non-theist framework. I mean, there’s flavours of non-theism. There’s flavours of atheism. But, more or less, those are splitting hairs. They do not have a direct impact on most people’s lives who have those kinds of stances. Unless, they develop an additional ethical framework around it. It could be the American Humanist Association, Black Skeptics Los Angeles, Black Nonbelievers, the Unitarian Universalist Association, the American Ethical Union, and so on. Those are accepting of non-theist views, if not affirming, while having an ethical or moral framework around them. They don’t agree on everything. They don’t take the same orientation on everything, but they have a lot of overlap. That’s the part that I’m interested in.

Duk: Right, good to know, it is interesting that you point that out. I do not have much background on women’s rights and different aspects of civil rights in Canada. There’s a lot going on here.

Jacobsen: [Laughing] Right.

Duk: [Laughing] I do not have a whole lot of time to look at Canada.

Jacobsen: You have my full sympathy as a Canadian looking at the context.

Duk: [Laughing].

Jacobsen: I mean, where do you start? Where do you start? The good thing, people could use this obvious series of injustices converging on this singular movement, probably the largest protest in American history, into real criminal justice reform, real economic equality. Also, the work towards bringing about better lives for those who are more or less at the bottom in proportion to the increase of productivity of the general population, which has been the problem for 40 or more years in the United States with explicit, conscious policy to drive inequality farther along. Which, people become disgruntled with: African Americans, Native Americans, Hispanic Americans, especially women in those categories, get the shit end of an already shorter stick.

Duk: Correct, correct.

Jacobsen: That’s why I think the activism is important. And besides, why not? What is the actual counterargument if we are talking about the well-being of American citizens across the board?

Duk: The bottom line.

Jacobsen: Yes [Laughing].

Duk: The bottom line of individuals would be the only counterargument there.

Jacobsen: So, with the particular chapter of The Satanic Temple, what are some social activities in the context of a) the current moment, which is inflammatory, and b) before and after this moment? This is only a moment in time. There is going to be an ordinary life before and after for these various chapters. For yours, as a media liaison, what are some of the activities – political, communal?

Duk: Our chapter focuses a lot on the communal activities. I’m not sure how much you know about Michigan, but Michigan is a really, really conservative state. Even though, it is in the North. We are victim of the stereotype of the North as so much better than the South. Things of that nature. Michigan is really conservative. We focus a lot on being a safe haven for people who want to hear opinions; that are not conservative. Most of the members have family members who are really, really conservative and have very different ideas than their own. We act as a place where they can, basically, for lack of a better term, let the fruit flies fly. They can come and be whoever they are; we provide activities. Our biggest activity is usually Pride. It takes place in June. It is where we shine. We provide ritual for bystanders to be able to be themselves, act Pride, and be able to do things like destroy their names for people in the trans community or destroy identities assigned to them. Also, we started an annual camping trip called Camp Satan in Michigan here. We like to get together and hang out. What we have been doing lately with mostly virtual meetups, we have a happy hour every Sunday. We sit, talk, and try to be together in some way.

We have our meetings virtually. We plan different events. Our ways of activism are, usually, knowledge and education here. We have a book drive for prisoners. We do this all throughout the year. We make several drops to several prisons here. We give books on philosophy. We tend to stay away from religion. We provide books on different skills, history. Anything that we can provide to give prisoners some connection to the outside and a way to feel as if they are using their time wisely. Also, we do different clothing donations to a local shelter for homeless teenagers here. It might be different materials for reading, writing. We provide clothes to the shelter. We do a good mix of communal and activism-style activities. We try to make a really good set of activities for the members and the affiliates. So, when they come here, they get a break from the world around them. I think, we do a really good job of that.

Jacobsen: Do the texts coming to the prisoners come from dialogue within the Michigan chapter or within the desired texts that the prisoners suggest or want themselves, or both?

Duk: It is a little bit of both. One of our members here has a connection to a prison guard. They came up with the idea, “Hey, let’s donate these books.” They knew for a while that there was a need for books and getting subjects to the prison. This guy went and got the guidelines as to the kinds of books. We went through friends, family, and libraries and donated hundreds of books over the last year. It is thousands by now, to various prisons here in Michigan.

Jacobsen: What are some statements coming from prisoners getting books to enhance a) philosophical understanding and b) technical knowhow?

Duk: I have not heard directly from prisoners. However, we work with the Unitarian Universalist church to distribute these books to different places. They said themselves that they see the surprise on the faces on the people receiving the books. I wish I had a better grasp on personal speeches with prisoners, as to what came out of these books. Sadly, I don’t have that. As you might imagine, it would be hard to track down the books and the effects on prisoners.

Jacobsen: In a conservative state, what difficulties arise around extreme stereotypes about Satanists in general and TST in general?

Duk: The sterotypes comes on an individual basis, we try to go with the moment. You will find us in places really open to us. Different bars, restaurants, and bookstores are open to us. As individuals, though, even today, I had a shirt on today. It was a shirt from the camping trip last year, had a pentagram on it, and said, “Camp Satan,” and the date of the strip and the state of Michigan. All I got was scowls. Some people look at me sideways, pretty evilly.

Jacobsen: [Laughing] I can imagine.

Duk: [Laughing] I find it interesting. I enjoy it. Maybe, people may comment, scowl, etc., but it makes them think about different views. At events, we have no problems. At Pride, people are really happy to see us. It is a place where we are accepted. At the meetups, we are accepted pretty well. Most of the weirdness comes from the internet. People who message the page with prayers, etc. People try to infiltrate the group online. Online, it is connecting with people. Things like that. Locally, we don’t go where we are not wanted. We accept people’s choice to not have us around; that’s really it. Oh! I shouldn’t skip over this. The most interesting time of interaction with conservatives in the state with the stuff getting in the news was the goat monument at the state capitol in Michigan. It was on the holidays around Christmas. We left it for about a week. It is interesting the reactions that we get. There have been a lot of news stories. People say, “We should burn it down! We should vandalize it!” People went out and attempted to vandalize it. People send death threats. We have an affiliate member who works around a police station in some capacity and heard death threats. We anointed it with blood every day while it was there.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Duk: People made death threats. That they would do stuff when we went to the hotels. We took it down and put it up every day as the law requires. It was interesting the different threats received. That was the only time that I felt the conservatives really came out to play for whatever reason. It really bothered them for us to put out a nativity scene and perform rituals there. They referred to it as a nativity scene.

Jacobsen: Christmas is a pagan holiday. It was co-opted by the Christians, but, at root, it is a pagan holiday. This is a widespread misunderstanding, coming my way, listening to both Canadians and Americans. In many ways, the secular groups using the iconography of and images antithetical to a lot of the Christian iconography in the United States and Canada are more right.

Duk: Right, we think the whole idea of having religious iconography on the state capitol is [Laughing] ridiculous. They’ve spent a lot of time on rules for this and magic paperwork for it. If everyone is going to have their message on the capitol lawn, we will as well. [Laughing] People didn’t agree with that. Our goal was to get the message across. If someone is there this year, we will be there as well.

Jacobsen: What are the demographics of the local chapter?

Duk: I don’t get too much into the membership of the chapter. I will say, “It is diverse and represents every racial and sexual/gender representation in Michigan,” for the most part. We do a good job reaching out to different people in different walks of life. I am actually pretty proud of that.

Jacobsen: What have been the points of political activism over the two weeks or so of protests over the murder of George Floyd or others?

Duk: We have not taken a position as a chapter. In fact, The Satanic Temple National Council has the same position of the local chapter. It is not the time for Satanists to be present as Satanists. It is not our place to wave our banner and sticking our nose in this matter. As individuals, we participate in a number of levels. There are worries of Covid-19, etc. There are provacateurs of violence who frequently show up to the protests. Many members of chapters, affiliates, and so on, have gone to various protests, rallies, and be vocal with various ally groups. I have been pleased in that regard. As a chapter, we have decided to stay out of it. We asked, certain members have asked, various groups, e.g., local BLM groups and other affiliate groups how they’d like us to help. Individuals help where they can in that regard. As individuals, we are always involved in helping various minority groups, as far as donations to the teenage homeless shelter. Most of the homeless kids here are LGBTQ of some stripe and/or minority. That’s usually the case with statistics in Michigan. A lot of our efforts go to helping these individuals.

With the prison population here, a lot of the efforts go to individual prisoners. We try to spread the activism around in that way. But, as far as these protests as Satanists, we try to help wherever we are at.

Jacobsen: What principles tend to bring individuals into TST?

Duk: It is a broad spectrum of principles. It is really hard to say. TST, as you may know, is really sex positive. It brings a lot of people in, LGBTQ of all stripes. It brings a lot of people in. People who are humanist and want to say more about what they do believe rather than don’t believe. You find them coming into TST. You find individuals coming into TST who are sick of the scientific illiteracy running rampant in the country, and like to join TST to support efforts such as Grey Faction. So, you find a lot of people joining TST around many different ideals. Our chapter here, we have a lot of people who are LGBTQ of some stripe. We have a lot of people here who are here for sex positive reasons. Pride is the big event for us and people feel comfortable with us there, at the Pride booth. It is sad that we weren’t able to be there this year, obviously, as it was cancelled. Being present in the community around women’s rights stuff, we plan to do women’s rights stuff. We have a lot of abortion clinics, Planned Parenthood protestors locally.

Jacobsen: How can people get involved with the chapter local to the themselves or the main national organization?

Duk: If individuals go to www.satanictemple.com, they can find a list of different chapters and prism groups in the area. Prism groups are in the beginning stages and do not have the full chapter structure, but are the way to the full chapter structure. They can go online and find chapters on Facebook. Chapters function in different ways. Ours is mainly Facebook. We may be getting away from this soon. Facebook, though, is the main way. Chapters have different membership structures. We allow pretty much anyone to join the Facebook page, as long as they pass a basic quiz. Then from there, membership is decided by the members. Other chapters have different rules and regulations around each chapter. That is the best way to get involved – go to the website, find the local chapter, every state has a chapter or a prism group, even internationally, e.g., in the UK. Go there, find out what your local chapter does, how to find them, and contact them.

Jacobsen: Marr, thank you so much for your time.

Duk: Yes, anytime.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Jon 10 – Say a Prayer for Me, Mr. Cuomo

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/06/18

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New YorkHere we talk about God and the Governor of New York.

*Interview conducted on May 11, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: I want to touch on two points, as covered before. Prime Minister Trudeau, son of the late Pierre Trudeau, made statements on the coronavirus. His remarks were, more or less, on the idea of Canadian citizens deserving more than thoughts and prayers. He did not denigrate those who wish to use the language and have the sensibility. He was making the argument that the general population – religious and non-religious, in other words – need more than this in times of crisis, especially in a shooting. In New York, Cuomo impressed you, others, and me, stating God did not reduce the numbers of deaths and incidences of coronavirus, but people did. This is along the same line of thinking that we’re seeing more and more with Iceland under Katrín Jakobsdóttir. She speaks to mass testing. Same with South Korea. New Zealand under Jacinda Ardern, an agnostic. It is a foundational common element of non-religion’s general focus on science. It is an operationalism as foundational. So, with New York, what is more likely to make most of New York operationalistic, naturalistic about the world, scientific?

Jonathan Engel: I think, New York is a big state in terms of geography. About half of the population or more lives in New York City. When you include the suburban areas of New York and New York City, I went to college at the University of Buffalo. Obviously, Upstate is its own thing. But New York State is dominated by New York City. New York City is a cosmopolitan place. It is a place with a lot of different people from a lot of different places. We call ourselves a city of immigrants. We are! My father was an immigrant born in Canada. We are a city of immigrants. So, a lot of people come here. We are more like, in New York City, other Western countries than other states in the United States. Because the United States has a very heavy level of religiosity among the people more so than other Western countries, but New York City, in particular, and New York State as well. Andrew Cuomo is a child of New York City. His father was the Governor of New York too. He spent part of his time growing up in Albany, but a lot of time in Queens before Mario Cuomo became governor of New York.

So, he’s a New York City guy in a lot of ways too. He wouldn’t say this because he feels the need to represent New York State. He is a New York City guy. In New York City, there is less of that kind of religious influence, especially the extreme religious influence. There are pockets of it because there are pockets of Hasidic Jews, but they tend to be very insular. They don’t affect the rest of the culture as much as Evangelicals as somewhere in the Midwest. In, again, the city, it’s very cosmopolitan. It is more influenced as if by Europe. When people talk about socialism in parts of Europe, it is not something people in New York will be bothered by, as much as people in other parts of the country. This has helped us. The cosmopolitan aspect of the city is why it got hit so fast. So many people come into the city for business, for tourism with 40,000,000 tourists per year. We live – literally – on top of each other. It is not surprising that New York City was one of the first places to get hit so hard in the United States. Right now, if you look at the trends of coronavirus in America, the only place where it is going down is New York. Everywhere else is going up. Cuomo has been very good person to listen to, because he tells the truth, doesn’t sugar coat things. You get the real deal from him rather than listening to the Task Force from the federal government from Trump and Pence.

Who knows what you’re going to hear from these people? Partly, it seems like the nature of New York. We are not going to engage. You don’t have to convince that many people that if you have to social distance; that that’s going to be something to help solve the problem. Whereas, saying, “We have to get in a church and pray this away.” You have pockets of ultra-Orthodox Jews, but you don’t have the kind of religious fervour, as in other parts of the country. With people – literally – saying, “Jesus will save. I will hug my congregants. Jesus will protect them.” You have people with this form of magical thinking. But is not as prevalent in New York, again, I am a New Yorker [Laughing]…

Jacobsen: …[Laughing]…

Engel: …So, take that with a grain of salt. Some, they may want to go to church or synagogue for various reasons because that’s what they’ve always done. They love the community. They will turn around and say, “As long as we pray, the coronavirus will stay away from us,” which will obviously make it worse. It has not happened. We have 80,000 people dead, even so, and rising. Just as we’re talking about the magical thinking of religion, in the Trump White House, you have Trump saying, “I believe this is going to go down to zero. When it is April, and it gets warmer, it will go down.” ‘I believe…,’ ‘I think…,’ what do you mean? “That’s what I think.” That’s nothing. It is what you want, but what you want and what’s real aren’t the same thing. Again, Trump uses the language of religion, even while not religious. Even though, he panders about religion. In some ways, it is the same thing. What is its basis? With religious people, it is based on a book written thousands of years ago, who did not know the germ theory of disease. With Trump, it is just “I am smarter than everyone. So, what I say must have value, because, I am so much smarter than anyone else. I do not have to bother with research and learning.” A lot of people buy into it.

A lot of people in this country say, “You know, I like a guy who knows what he thinks and knows what he believes, and that’s that.” You get less of this in New York than other parts of the country. I am saying, “That’s what I believe,” right? You don’t see protests in churches saying, “We demand churches open up and get packed,” in New York City. So, I do know that for a fact. It has helped New York. In New York, the rate is going down. If you look at the country without New York, then the rate continues to climb, to go up.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Jon.

Engel: Okay, thank you!

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Jon 9 – Rage Within the Green Machine

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/06/16

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New YorkHere we talk about the the health of the socioeconomic status of America and the constructive channelling of legitimate rage.

*Interview conducted on June 1, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, today, based on some pre-talk, I want to focus on what you were terming “hate.” I want to scale that up to more “rage” that could be channelled constructively or destructively. At present, it is an admixture. As an American, as someone living in New York City, as someone seeing the developments of 2020 so far, what are you seeing in terms of the destructive channelling of this hate or rage? What are you seeing in terms of its constructive manifestations as well?

Jonathan Engel: On the destructive side, it is a distraction and an excuse for people who don’t want change. What we’re seeing, one of the things most destructive about the violence is ‘the powers that be’ will use it and are using it to attack any ideas of constructive change. If you can say, “These are destructive violence thugs,” it hides the real issue. There are weaknesses in this country in police violence, obviously, and in income inequality and health inequality. This Covid-19 shows the health inequalities based on health insurance and other individuals who are middle and upper class and can stay home. However, the people flipping burgers, the transit workers, etc., they have no choice; they have to go in and work and have to subject themselves to this. Yet, for many of them, they cannot make a living wage based on the pay. They don’t get health insurance. They don’t get paid sick days. From the negative point of view, this stuff is being distracted from, by the violence. Our so-called president is saying, ‘Get tough! We have the most amazing weapons. If they reach this place, the Secret Service has the best dogs and the most amazing weapons!’ What is he talking about, ray guns? Is this Star Trek? That’s the problem in terms of the rage, the violence, and the destruction.

It can be an easy distraction for the ‘powers that be.’ In fact, it is one of the ways that Richard Nixon got elected. Trump’s advisors are hoping that he can do the same with “Law and Order.” They never talk about law and order in the Board rooms.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Engel: They never talk about law and order on tax returns; it is only when it is a black guy. He is losing. But he is hoping to win as the “Law and Order” guy, ‘I am not namby-pamby. I am a tough guy.’ When the rage is channelled into the destruction, it is something bad for the goals, I think, of most of the people who are protesting, but channelling the rage in a positive direction means keeping on public officials, keeping on them constantly like white on rice, as they say, to make sure these concerns are dealt with; also, to me, the biggest thing is get out and vote. In fact, today, I heard George Floyd’s brother. It is a very moving speech. He said exactly that, ‘Tearing down the neighbourhoods is not a memorial to my brother.’ He also said, and this is important too. He gave a very inspiring talk. ‘Get out and vote, not just for president, but also about district attorney, attorney general, these are all of the important people in bringing about change in this country in both policing, which is the immediate, and in terms of the basic inequality finding black and brown folks at the bottom of the heap.’

Jacobsen: Killer Mike made similar statements or sentiments when providing his own reluctant speech to some of the public of Atlanta. He made the notion or motion towards voting rather than violence against property or destruction of property. This, he meant as a democratic norm and a constructive proposal for the sincere rage of many American citizens across the board over the murder of George Floyd and others. It didn’t happen in a vacuum. It didn’t happen all at once. It happened throughout this presidency, but rooted in a long history of American society. If we take the 30th of May, there was the launch of the joint SpaceX and NASA astronauts to the International Space Station, which was the first time since 2011. While, at the same time, there have been the single largest protests for women’s rights, for the protection of civilian people of colours’ lives in the United States with disproportionate state violence on them. Also, acknowledging the general trend line of a reduction of violence in the United States over the last decades, it is a strange dichotomy. It has been seen before with riots with strange figures heading up technology for advancements in different aspects of what human beings can be and can do together. Richard Pryor had an old sketch with the first black president in the 70s [Ed. 1977]. He was noting, ‘It’s about time black people went space. There’s a been a lot of white people who have been going to space. And you could say, ‘They’ve been spacing out on us.’

Engel: [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing] I think it’s similar. Most of the people focused on the SpaceX-Nasa joint venture. How ever positive with the advancement of the species, and a first since 2011 for Americans, it does represent a disconnect with what is happening on the ground socially, politically, and economically for most Americans, in terms of who has access to get an education in STEM or who have the finances for such expensive projects.

Engel: I agree with you. One of the issues here is the democracy is broken. I could give you lots of examples. We have this ridiculous Electoral College with one candidate winning three million more votes than the other candidate, and then the loser wins the presidency. That doesn’t look like democracy to me. You have gerrymandering in some states. One party can win 60% of the vote in general legislative elections and only get 40% of the representation because of the ways in which the districts are drawn cleverly to ensure democracy does not reign. The part who draws the districts wins. There is all sorts of voter suppression in this country. Since 2018, or January, 2019, when the now House of Representatives was sworn in, in the democratic house, they passed hundreds of bills that have gone to the Senate. It goes to the Senate. Some of those bills have bipartisan support. If you vote, then they would have passed. But if one person, and not a particularly decent one, Mitch McConnell, who is the leader of the majority in the Senate, if he decides no vote on the bill, then there is no vote. The House passes the bill. The Senate would pass the bill, but Mitch McConnell says, ‘I don’t like it. So, I’m not bringing it up for a vote. That’s that.’ That doesn’t feel like democracy.

If people feel as if they do not have a stake in society, then they are more willing to tear it down. Everyone needs some skin in the game. If you are walking down the street full of rage, and if you feel the society isn’t for you, if it works for the richest people and white people, and if it doesn’t “work for me” as a black or a brown person, then “this society is not for me. I do not have a stake in it. If it burns down, then it doesn’t mean anything to me.” That’s when I think rage gets translated into violence, “What do I care if this burns down? There’s nothing here for me. No one will listen to me. My vote won’t care, anyway.” That’s when rage gets channelled into violence. When people feel as if they have a steak in society. They will be heard. There is a reason “why I do not want this burned down, seeing a future for myself, seeing a job paying enough to live on and raise a family, and have a decent and middle-class life.” You say, “I don’t want this burned down. I am somebody. When I make demands, that we have a fair system in this country, then they will be heard.” If you don’t feel that way, “Nothing here is for me. It is for somebody else. What the hell? I might as well burn it all down.”

Jacobsen: Is the core of the argument: a bulky middle class is a buttress against self-destructive impulses towards a society, when I am making a conflation between the individual middle class person and the society?

Engel: I think so. I think the middle class is the bulwark. But we have been losing the middle class. People have been finding it harder to move into the middle class. The cost of higher education is too high. We are losing that. We have been losing that for years. Yes, the middle class, a reasonable middle class aspirations are important. I’ll tell you an anecdote Mitt Romney has become everyone’s favourite Republican down here. He stands up to Trump, the one Republican. Back in 2012, when he was running against Obama, he paid a visit to this guy John H. Schnatter. He went to the home of him. He was the founder of Papa John’s Pizza. He is no longer affiliated, but he founded it. He went to this guy’s house. This huge complex and mansion with the golf course; Romney looks around and says, ‘This, my friend, is the American dream.’ I saw that. I said, ‘You know, if that’s the American dream, then 99.999% of Americans will never reach it.’

How do you expect them to care about society? How do they expect people to care about society if you’re saying that is the American dream? How many people will reach it? In my opinion, the American Dream is start with nothing, get a good public education, work hard, get a decent job that pays you something to live on, has healthcare, can take a vacation once in a while. That’s the American Dream. It is reachable. It is, basically, a description of the middle class, which has been eroded in this country because the rights of workers have been taken away. There has been an effort to destroy unions. The tax rate keeps going lower, and lower, and lower. People can only talk about lowering taxes towards the richest people in the country. You end up with people who think they were middle class and slip into poverty themselves. A good middle class that is reachable and having the ability to reach aspirations for the average person, reasonable aspirations, not John H. Schnatter mansion, but a decent place to live with decent schools. That’s the type of thing; I think it is a bulwark against violence.

If you’re in the situation, then you can see how you have a stake in an orderly society. But also, if you feel, ‘If I say something, my vote counts, my vote matters.’ If gives you a stake in society and a stake in non-violence, we don’t want things burned down. We want them improved; we will be listened to. I think that’s a bulwark in steering the rage into constructive change as opposed into destruction and nihilism.

Jacobsen: Jon, thank you for your time.

Engel: Hey, Scott, take care of yourself.

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Interview with Professor Steven Pinker – Johnstone Family Professor, Psychology, Harvard University

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/06/10

In a prior job at Conatus News in the United Kingdom, I conducted an interview with the prominent and respected author and philosopher of science, Dr. Rebecca Newberger Goldstein, who agreed to the interview and made some thoughtful comments about the idea of the “conatus” or the idea of an “effort or willing of something in order to improve itself.” This came with a context. She understood the intellectual environs and inspiration of the “conatus” coming from deceased philosopher Baruch Spinoza and others. Goldstein has a sentiment towards Spinoza, akin to Bertrand Russell’s when he said, “Spinoza is the noblest and most lovable of the great philosophers. Intellectually, some others have surpassed him, but ethically he is supreme.” As serendipity presents itself, sometimes, one can get the opportunity to interview an individual of similar intellectual calibre within many of the same philosophical traditions and ethical outlooks. Serendipity came through financial and social media assistance on the part of Professor Pinker towards an initiative to combat a particular form of superstition and supernatural belief in Africa. As it so happens, also, Pinker and Goldstein have been married since 2007. Professor Pinker is the Johnstone Family Professor of Psychology at Harvard University. His most recent book is Enlightenment Now: The Case for Reason, Science, Humanism, and Progress. With great pleasure, I present the interview with Professor Pinker from yesterday here, where we discuss current events in the United States in a larger non-pollyannaish context, journalism, cognitive biases, supernatural beliefs, creationism, global democratic movements, the language faculty, sex and gender differences, and Humanism.

*Interview conducted on June 9, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Let’s start from the top with some of the current events in the United States, and some of the things happening in the world as well, if we look at some of the more current events in the United States over the last two weeks, it can given the impression of things being quite negative, in terms of the apparent destruction of property and violence against some citizens and authorities. Your recent work has been based around cataloguing long-term trends happening around the world, including in the United States. One of the caveats that you tend to give is that it is not pollyannaish in its perspective as well. So, what would be a broader perspective, even in the midst of some of the sociopolitical upheaval happening in the United States now?

Professor Steven Pinker: The overall levels of violence, including police shootings of civilians, were worse in the past. It’s unfortunate that this has been a long-simmering problem, particularly in the United States, where police kill far too many civilians. We should be grateful. Finally, this problem is going to be addressed. It is unavoidable. However, our impression of the present moment compared to other times should not be compared to the news of the day because the news is a highly non-random sample of the worse things happening on the planet on any given day. They can give a highly misleading picture of the trajectory of the world. The things that go right tend to be non-newsworthy. The country is not at war. That’s not news.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Pinker: Things that tend to get better creep up a few percentage points per year, which can then compound and transform the planet. However, if they don’t take place on a Thursday in February, then we will never read about them. While not denying terrible things can happen, indeed, an acknowledgement of human progress is not the same as the belief that nothing bad ever happens or things get better by themselves. We’re apt to underestimate progress when our source of information about the world comes through the news.

Jacobsen: Does this make a general statement about journalism and reportage, even in prestigious Western publications such as The New York Times, coming to the phrase, “If it bleeds, it leads”?

Pinker: Indeed, this is not to cast aspersions on the essential role of the mainstream media in our understanding of the world because it is the reporters who have the commitment to disinterested search of information. It is the institutions of fact-checking and editorial responsibility that are the only window to the world. It is not an accusation of any sinister, or even commercial, motive, but, rather, a kind of innumeracy. A kind of failure to appreciate the distortions coming about by sampling. In particular, the sample of the worst things taking place anywhere on the planet. The insensitivity to time scales. Something can go wrong very quickly. Something going right tends to be protracted over time. Also, a part of our psychology is unduly affected by the images, anecdotes, and narratives. Cognitive psychologists call this the Availability Bias/Heuristic. Events available in memory – because of vividness, recency, and concreteness – will tend to distort estimates of risk likelihood and probability.

Jacobsen: Even if we take the research of distinguished professors like Elizabeth Loftus at the University of California, Irvine, there is a robust phenomenon of False Memories and Rich False Memories. If we are taking social activism and political events over the scale of decades, does this further compound the cognitive biases with information recalled and observed and brought to the news?

Pinker: It is an additional source of distortion of our perception of the world. Above and beyond the fact, we are overly influenced by events and narratives. There is the problem: we don’t particularly remember them accurately, as Elizabeth Loftus’s work has shown. We tend to tidy up the details of our memories. So, they fit a coherent narrative. Our memories can be edited retrospectively by the way we think about them, the occasions of recollection. After we recall a memory, the filing back of the memory can be distorting once more. It is an additional source of cognitive impairment. All educated people should be aware of it, including journalists.

Jacobsen: Are there particular types of biases coming forward in more established mainstream institutional news organizations compared to more independent journalism?

Pinker: There can be. Overall, large journalistic institutions can afford editors and fact-checkers, and reporters to be sent out to remote and inhospitable locations. Plus, they have a reputation to defend. So, if they are caught on record with egregious distortions, then that will subtract from the reputation. There are some reasons for the big institutions needing to be more accurate. On the other hand, there are some reasons for reduced accuracy`. If there is a particular worldview, ideology, or mindset, often, it is hard to recognize them in yourself. There’s a quote, which I love, from the economist Joan Robinson, “Ideology is like breath. You never smell your own.”

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Pinker: [Laughing] If an institution, including a journalistic institution, is captured by a political faction, whether on the left or the right, we know from a body of psychological research of a third type of distortion. Namely, the desire to filter evidence, so it reinforces beliefs held already by you. With Confirmation Bias, we tend to subscribe to themes and commentaries affirming beliefs rather than challenging them. We tend to be hardnosed methodological purists when it comes to research contradicting personal beliefs. Whereas, we tend to give an easy pass when it comes to research that confirms them. Indeed, political biases, almost a tribalism where the tribes are not ethnographic units or sports teams, are ideologies on the left or the right. They can be a major source of misunderstanding. Again, there is a biased bias. Where everyone is willing to admit this is true about the other side, their side is seen as completely objective and clear-eyed. There is reason to believe this is not true. In fact, we can find distortions in the factual understanding on both the left and the right.

Jacobsen: In the United States more so than Canada, and the United Kingdom much less so than Canada, there are a lot of supernatural beliefs across the board, whether devils, ghosts, all sorts of things. How do these then creep into some of the perceptions of a lot of the general public, even if they are reading decent, reliable, and validated reportage in the news?

Pinker: Yes, I am not aware of data comparing countries. What you say doesn’t surprise me, in a lot of measures of wellbeing and rationality, the United States punches well below its wealth.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Pinker: It is among the world’s wealthiest countries. It ought to be the healthiest, happiest, and the smartest in the world. It does okay.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Pinker: In many ways, it trails Canada and other affluent democracies. I wouldn’t be surprised if supernatural belief is one. Certainly, religious belief is one. Americans are more religious than any affluent democracy. The United States is an outlier. There are beliefs, which we don’t categorize as religion. They are supernatural or New Age. They are surprisingly prevalent in a lot of countries. Why would this be more the case in the United States assuming the science shows this? The scientific and pseudoscientific beliefs do not come from a first-hand knowledge of the relevant scientific literatures. Frankly, I am not enough of a population geneticist, climate scientist, or neuroscientist to defend all personal beliefs about the brain, the soul, the climate, and evolution. However, I know the way science works. They are the tribe for me. I know the intellectual ecosystem. It is peer review. It is open debate. If someone were to come up with a really good refutation of some dogma, then this would be a good career move because the upstart is often rewarded. I tend to believe: If something is in the scientific mainstream, then it is, typically, a better source of objective understanding than some random thing forwarded from Twitter or email.

On the other hand, there are people without this belief. They treat the scientific consensus, the consensus of institutions such as government and academia and hospitals and mainstream media, as another opinion. No more reliable than something retweeted. Tests of scientific knowledge when it comes to climate show people who accept the scientific consensus are not necessarily more informed than others who do not accept it. For those who accept manmade climate change, they think this has something to do with plastic straws and holes in the ozone. Climate change dealing with a sense of greenness. Their own not-so scientific beliefs happen to align with the scientific consensus because they tend to follow, more or less, the consensus. However, for people alienated from mainstream institutions, they have no reason to take this any more seriously than pronouncements of President Donald Trump. In the United States, assuming a greater degree of belief in the paranormal, pseudoscience, and so on, in addition to the well-documented level of religious belief, it may lead to greater alienation from mainstream institutions, which tend to be more trusted in other wealthy democracies, I assume.

Jacobsen: Skeptical Inquirer published a good article, recently. It had to do with Nobel Prize winners, some, who held not exactly the most robustly validated positions. In other words, it was a comparison between individuals who would very likely score very high on general intelligence while having certain forms of irrational beliefs. It is not directly related, but it is along the same line of thinking of some of the research into people who score very high on intelligence tests, general intelligence tests, having particular kinds of tendencies in irrational thinking. Is general intelligence a factor here when it comes to pseudoscientific beliefs, supernatural beliefs, and various forms of fundamentalist religious beliefs?

Pinker: It is a factor, but it is like anything in psychology or social science. There are correlations. They are significant, but well below 0.10.

Jacobsen: [Laughing] Right.

Pinker: [Laughing] People who score higher on IQ tests. They are more likely to be atheists. Also, they are more likely to get education, less likely to fall prey to fallacies of statistical reasoning. However, there are no shortage of exceptions to the correlations.

Jacobsen: In the United States, there has been a longstanding effort to try to combat the perceived encroachment of an atheist worldview or a secular frame of mind, especially in regard to evolution via natural selection. So, organizations like the Discovery Institute. Philip Johnson died last year in November. He is the legal mind of the orientation. The other two are Michael Behe and William Dembski for the molecular biology and information theoretic foundations of Intelligent Design creationism, respectively. They have been working for decades to try to impose creationist thought in the education system by skipping all manner of regular modern scientific procedure with peer review, debate, experiment, etc. Instead, they attempted to go straight to the high school system in the textbooks. So, when it comes to some, not simply errors in reasoning or correlations between general intelligence and certain forms of supernatural and pseudoscientific beliefs, what about these direct efforts to try to reduce the level of correct scientific and empirical theories, most substantiated theories, of the world seen today?

Pinker: Indeed, though, the Discovery Institute and the smarter creationists have been clever at insinuating what are disguised religious beliefs in the guise of scientific controversy. On two occasions, my hometown paper, the Boston Globe, one of the prestigious papers in the United States, published op-eds by people from the Discovery Institute trying to sew confusion about evolution. I complained in both instances to the editorial page. The editor was tricked by a fairly clever campaign to make this seem as if it was in the realm of ongoing scientific controversy. In that, it was a secular argument for Intelligent Design. Whereas, as the Kitzmiller case in Dover in 2005 established, there’s no question: This is disguised religious propaganda. Knowing the separation of church and state, at least in the United States, they realize the need to work around it. They were given a stunning defeat in 2005, but, certainly, they have not given up.

Jacobsen: Some of the earliest work was on an innate capacity of language. When it comes to a lot of the innate capacities, I, often, think of the cognitive biases, which appear, more or less, hardwired in how human beings evolved. When it comes to some of the attempts to educate along the lines of critical thinking, science, and empiricism, general rationality, even if there was pervasive critical thinking education, science education, logical reasoning education, and so on, from elementary school through to the end of high school, would there be an asymptote at some level in terms of the level of rationality to inculcate in the society, including among the wealthiest?

Pinker: Humans, certainly, are a rational species. In that, we have taken over the planet, even long before the Industrial Revolution and the age of colonization. From a homeland in Africa, humans outsmarted plants and animals in a variety of ecosystems because they could develop mental models about the ways the world worked. They were not so superstitious to not know when it could get cooler, how to track down an animal, and how to detoxify a plant. We have an innate capacity for reason. It seems rooted in the physical world, the concrete world, or the cause-and-effect arrows determining our survival. When it comes to history before we were born, when it comes to parts of the world where we don’t live, when it comes to things too small to see, or places too far away to live, we are susceptible to myths and fairytales. Probably, it’s because most of the history of the species existed before the era of science, statistics, and modern education. It didn’t matter much. On the creation of the cosmos, you could believe anything.  

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Pinker: A lot of beliefs were not in the realm of truth and falsity. Our modern attitude states, “We ought to apply this to all of our beliefs.” Rather, we look for narrative appeals of the story and the moral utility. That is, is this good for galvanizing people to do the right things? Whether it is true or false, it a secondary concern for a lot of our beliefs. I think this is true of a lot of religious beliefs. It is not even clear, whether religious beliefs for religious people are deep down believed to be true. In that, this is seen as an important belief to hold, or not, in spite of its truthfulness. I believe our cognitive systems have these two different kinds of belief. Modernity has seen the expansion and encroachment of the factual, scientific, logical, and historical, over the mythological, the narrative, the fable, and the morality tales. However, human nature makes the myth, the narrative, and the fable always pushback. We need, in the education system, political discourse, and journalistic discourse, an affirmation of the idea: some things are true; some things are false. We do not know, at any given time, what they are because we are not omniscient. We are not infallible. We have methods, which steer us on a path to greater truth, including the scientific method. We ought to valorize attempts at objectivity, even when they tug at our moral narratives or moral convictions.

Jacobsen: One of the approaches endorsed by you, which, I believe, comes from the late Hans Rosling: “factfulness.” What is factfulness? How does this reorient a lot of the discourses, whether floating in online spaces or some professional circles?

Pinker: Yes, I wish I came up with the word “factfulness.”

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Pinker: It is an excellent addition to the English language suggested by a native speaker of Swedish, the late Hans Rosling, and his son, Ola Rosling, and daughter-in-law, Anna Rosling Rönnlund. Factfulness is the mindset of basing beliefs on the best vetted facts. In their case, and in mine, e.g., the book Enlightenment Now coming out shortly before Factfulness and partly based on Rosling’s data, it is the sense of the arc of history, of the state of the world now, should be driven by the best and most comprehensive data rather than by the headlines. Indeed, Rosling showed, in a number of surveys in The Ignorance Project, most people are out to lunch on knowledge of basic world developments such as people becoming richer or poorer on the whole, the percentage of kids who are vaccinated, the percentage of kids who are educated and literate. The majority of people believe things continue to get worse. People have not escaped poverty. Most people are illiterate. When in most cases, it is the great majorities.

Jacobsen: One of the big metrics, I believe the late Christopher Hitchens noted this in a debate with Tony Blair. The single best metric for the development of society is probably coming under the guise of the phrase: “The empowerment of women.” If women have equal rights on a variety of measures, whether reproductive health rights, economic access, educational access, and so on, the societies tend to be much healthier, and wealthier. What are some other metrics having an overall positive correlation with the health and wealth of a society?

Pinker: Yes, I think that is the essential question. To the frustration of social scientists, when you make comparisons across countries, across American states, across time periods, a lot of things get confounded. So, when you search for a cause and effect story, you need to be a really clever statistician or econometrician because countries with more empowered women are healthier, wealthier, more democratic. The questions: Which one is the cause? Which ones are the beneficial effects? The answer may be each of them reinforces each of the others. In countries with greater wealth, they will be less likely to imprison women in the kitchen and the nursery. Yet, when you have 50% of the population to apply their brainpower to the society’s problems, then this will likely make them richer moving forward. Likewise, richer countries tend to be able to afford schools and keep kids out of the fields and the factories. When you have a generation of kids who are better educated, they tend to be more receptive to the empowerment of women. It is an irrefutable idea [Laughing]. The idea of keeping half of the population in a state of oppression doesn’t make sense, when you observe the outcomes of societies empowering women. Other progressive belief systems such as the value of democracy over tyranny, the value of peace over conflict. These tend to correlate with better, more educated populaces.

I think Hitchens is right. In that, the empowerment of women is one driver. Although, it is hard to say, “It is the first driver.” In that, in any given society, if you simply educated girls, and if there were no other changes in health and infrastructure, then the society would improve. Certainly, it is a contributor. One way to think about this. Francis Fukuyama once said the key problem in human progress or human development, “How do we get to Denmark?” In this sense, Denmark is a lot like many countries. It has poverty. It has crime, but much less. In many ways, you could pick Norway. However, there are many, many better places to live than others. We can see how people vote with their feet. People, literally, want to get to Denmark via immigration there. It gives a benchmark for, at least at present, the highest places to aspire. Ideally, we would get the rest of the world to a state of happiness, health, and education, as Denmark. A lot of things differentiate Denmark from Togo or Bangladesh. Women’s empowerment would be one of them.

Jacobsen: What about the number of democracies in the world now? What about the strengths of the democracies? Is it fewer or more? Even if we take the total count, how robust are these democracies?

Pinker: In the past decade, the world has been more democratic than any other historical period and decade. There has been some backsliding in the past few years. Russia, Turkey, Hungary, and Brazil, for example, have slid back, including the United States and India. However, there is no comparison to the 1970s, when I was in the university system. There were experts predicting democracy would go the way of monarchy. A nice arrangement while it lasted.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Pinker: It is good to remember. Even with the alarming regression in democracy, we are seeing it. It is slight compared to the previous times of the world. Half of Europe was behind the Iron Curtain until 1989, living under totalitarian communistic dictatorships. Most of Latin America was under rightwing or military dictatorships. In East Asia, you had South Korea, Taiwan, and Indonesia under rightwing military dictatorships. All of them more or less democratic today. It is true. You cannot dichotomize the world into democratic and autocratic because a lot of crappy democracies exist. In that, people have the right to vote, but the government manipulates the vote. Either by outright fraud, by penalizing/outlawing opposition parties, by using the government organs as propaganda for the regime in power, by harassing journalists and opposition leaders on trumped up corruption charges, and so on, by dismantling civil society institutions like universities as Hungary did with the Central European University. That’s why a number of organizations give countries a grade. Sometimes, it is from minus 10 to plus 10 on an autocracy to a democracy scale.

Jacobsen: To the earliest work for you, as far as I know, it was language. You built off a lot of the work by Noam Chomsky or highly inspired by the work of Noam Chomsky. What is language, fundamentally, in terms of the modern research?

Pinker: My interests, in fact, were in all of human nature and human behaviour. I worked in visual imagery, auditory perception at McGill University before venturing into language. I did research into behaviour of rats and pigeons while a student as McGill. My first research was on excessive drinking in rats – of water, that is.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Pinker: My interest in language comes from a more general interest in human nature. Language is the most distinctively human trait. Although, it would not have evolved if not for other more distinctively human traits. Zoologically unusual features of homo sapiens including technological knowhow, figuring out how to outsmart plants and animals, how to develop tools and technologies, and social cooperation. We are unusual in the degree of social cooperation with members of the species who we are biologically unrelated. Language, it would not have evolved if we were not on speaking terms. Why share information or knowhow, or say anything to the enemy? The fact of the development of recipes, algorithms, and technologies and tools mean an interest in saying something to one another. We do not talk to merely amuse ourselves. In turn, it makes us valuable to other people as sources of information. It makes us more curious about our relations with other individuals. Language helps negotiate partnerships, spread gossip about partnerships to avoid, and so on. The three abilities – language, knowhow, and sociality – co-evolved. My original interest in language came from an interest in baby’s acquisition of it. This was a question for Chomsky. He did not study children’s language. He set a central theoretical problem in understanding language: How do we develop language in the first place? People need to learn to read, but not to speak.

All human societies have language without the benefit of some central committee with everything planned. The development and acquisition of language is part and parcel of the essence of human nature. For Chomsky, he implied a rich innate structure to language. Obviously, we can’t come into the world knowing anything about English, Japanese, Yiddish, or Swahili, but Chomsky proposed an innate universal grammar. That is, computational machinery optimized for language. Now, it is very hard to pin down what would go into this universal grammar. There is an enormous controversy around it. There is by no means a consensus in the researchers studying language. The challenge of explaining how kids learn language. It led me to being sympathetic to the idea of innate constraints or pre-programming of the possibilities of a language. Kids did not approach language as pure cryptographers trying to decode the probabilistic sequences of one sound after another. They come into the world expecting other people will communicate with them using arbitrary signs arranged by rules. They look for units of sounds. They listen for words. They are sensitive to the ways of combining them. Unless, you have a circuitry programmed to do it. Then kids would flounder around producing sounds approximating language without ever getting the point that a language is a bunch of signals.

Jacobsen: When we look at the various facets of human nature, one of the philosophical assumptions for humanists, like you and I, is human nature is fundamentally good. There are outliers among us. However, in general, human nature is fundamentally a good set up. As a philosophical assertion, how supported is this, empirically?

Pinker: Yes, I wouldn’t put it that way, myself. I stole a phrase from Abraham Lincoln for the title of a book I published, The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined, in 2011. Of course, putting aside the angels, it is a lovely metaphor. As it captures, human nature is complex. It has parts. I would not say, “Humans are fundamentally good.” I’d say, “There are subsystems in the human brain, which allows us to be good, e.g., empathy, a moral sense, a capacity for self-control, the power of reason.” However, it is not everything in the skull. We can be callous toward others. We can exploit them, whether exploitative labour, in sex, or through property. Some genders more than others have a stronger sense of dominance.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Pinker: We have a thirst for revenge. Sometimes, it is called justice. We can cultivate a sense of sadism. Depending on the social milieu, different parts of human nature can come to the fore. The challenge is setting up the norms, the institutions, the beliefs, and the laws calling out the better angels and suppressing the inner demons.

Jacobsen: What setups, empirically speaking, tend to bring the subsystems producing behaviours and thoughts, moral sentiments, bringing out the “better angels of our nature”?

Pinker: Democracy is one of them. The idea, no one has the right to dominate anyone else. There is a provisional, circumscribed, and temporary power granted to some individuals subject to recall and oversight to protect us against each other or to maximize public goods. That’s one of them. Cosmopolitan mixing of people and ideas. It becomes harder to demonize others if you know the state of the world in their shoes or from their point of view. Ideas such as human flourishing as the ultimate good rather than national glory or the propagation of dogma or adherence to scripture. The cultivation of a sense of fallibility, corrigibility, knowledge of human limits and human nature. So, we set up our institutions, not because any one of us can claim to be angelic or moral, or infallible or omniscient. Precisely the opposite, we set up rules of the game, so we can approach the truth or the morally best way of arranging our affairs. Even though, no one of us is good or wise enough to attain it. We have mechanisms with democratic checks and balances. We do not empower a benevolent despot because the despots are a guy or a gal complete with human infirmities. We do not allow scientific authorities to legislate a dogma. We have peer review. Even a Nobel Prize winner can’t get his or her stuff published without other people anonymously vetting it, it is part of the norm of science. Anyone can raise their hand and point out a flawed argument of anyone else. We don’t always implement them in as effective a form as desirable. However, those are aspirations. The fact of setting up rules allowing better states of knowledge, better forms of cooperation despite our limitations is a way in which we can outdo ourselves.

Jacobsen: You’ve done a debate or several debates on sex and gender differences. What are the differences between men and women, which are significant? What are some caveats to some of those significant differences?

Pinker: Yes, I consider myself a feminist. I celebrate the incomplete advancement of women’s rights and interests in all walks of life. However, I don’t think feminism demands sameness or interchangeability. In fact, I think it’s rather insulting to women.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Pinker: To say, it makes them worthy of rights, so they’re exactly like men. Because men and women have plenty of bugs, shortcomings, and flaws. Among the differences, the differences in sexuality. Men have a greater taste for sex for its own sake without consideration for emotional commitments. Perhaps, the most recent sign of this comes from the growing industry in sex robots.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Pinker: It is exclusively male. There are others. Men are the more violent gender. The homicide rates tend to be more than 10 times greater for male on male compared to female on female. Men tend to be more interested in things. Women are more interested in people. On average, in cognitive abilities, the differences are smaller and measurable. Men tend to be better at 3-dimensional spatial rotation. Women tend to be better at verbal fluency and arithmetic calculation. Men tend to be greater risk-takers, including stupid risks. There are others. Those are some of the major ones. Two major caveats, we are talking about two overlapping bell curves. For any difference in the averages, there are going to be plenty of women who are better than the average male and plenty of males who are better than the average female in spatial ability, in sexuality, in risk-taking, in interest in gadgets, etc. You name it. Also, we shouldn’t confuse the existence of observed differences amongst the averages or the central tendencies with political or moral rights/obligations. Namely, every individual should be treated as an individual and should have the opportunity to do whatever he or she finds is best for them. Florynce Kennedy once said, “There are very few jobs that actually require a penis or vagina. All other jobs should be open to everybody.”

Jacobsen: [Laughing] That’s a good quote. There’s another facet of this as well. It has to do with the factor of variance. If we look at the extreme levels of either end of the curve, the Gaussian normal distribution, the bell curve, let’s say 4 standard deviations on either side of the average, so, the profoundly gifted or the profoundly not, what shows up in the population of the profoundly gifted or not? For instance, the ratio of men to women at those levels. Also, if we look at the various standardized tests measuring at those levels, insofar as they do, what about the subtest scores in terms of the amount of sameness on all the subtests and the variability on all of the subtests too?

Pinker: There are a number of robust sex differences. There is more variability in men than in women. So, when you go out to the tails in either direction, the sex ratio is different. With the caveat, the farther and farther out one looks at the tails of the distribution, then the smaller and smaller are the sample sizes. So, the data get fuzzier. The other caveat is variance never reaches zero. So, no matter how far out one goes or not, you will see specimens of both sexes. However, in general, there are more men proportionately at the high and low end of most continua for which we have data.

Jacobsen: What are some of the socially predicted outcomes of this kind of variability? How does this manifest itself in society?

Pinker: One of them, if in a completely fair system, let’s say one utterly gender blind, you would not expect a 50/50 ratio in any profession. This has been long obvious to me based on the early career in childhood language acquisition. There was a statistical imbalance in favour of women. Both in sheer numbers and most of the intellectual superstars. In other fields, it may go another way, e.g., mechanical engineering, theoretical physics. Again, people tend to confuse the observation of the numbers as “not 50/50” with the claim of “no women.” It is preposterous. Only a madman would think women aren’t in physics or mechanical engineering. It doesn’t mean the numbers will be 50/50. In turn, it means departure from 50/50 is not, itself, a proof of sexism. Although, there may be sexism. Certainly, there is sexism. We can have any target, any aspiration. We can decide: It is an important social goal for 50/50 outcomes in mechanical engineering. I think this is a dubious goal. It means that we would not achieve the goal merely by a completely fair system. We would have to tilt this in the other direction with affirmative action policies in favour of women. Maybe, this is a social goal. Certainly, it must be a social goal. There should be no discrimination or harassment. Even in a utopian world in which discrimination and harassment fell to zero, we would not automatically end up with 50/50 ratios.

Jacobsen: If we look at a humanist philosophy, by the very nature of it, it is not merely atheism or agnosticism. In that, atheism is, as we know, simply a rejection of the supernatural in the form of gods. Agnosticism is a form of “I don’t know” about it. Humanism takes an ethical approach. At the same time, it incorporates science into its philosophical meanderings. So, it is open to revision. I think this is probably the reason for a moderately amusing thing among humanists, which is to make a lot of declarations (or manifestos) since 1933 forward.

Pinker: [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing] I wrote an article for a column for the Humanist Association of Toronto. I counted probably about 12.

Pinker: [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing] There’s, at least, that many. Some saying the same things. Others saying not the same things. You see variations between “ethical humanism” or “humanism.” You see an alternate religious philosophy and then non-dogmatic philosophy without incorporating religious terminology. When I frame this to myself, I look at Humanism as an empirical moral philosophy. By that nature, it will continually evolve as our best scientific understandings of the world evolve through the standard procedures of science mentioned before. If we take into account an ethical philosophy that evolves and will be ever, hopefully, improving based on improvements in our scientific understandings of the world, what do you think will be some of the next steps based on the richer understanding of science and very deep scientific sensibilities for Humanism as an ethical philosophy? What will be a reasonable next step?

Pinker: Yes, I think you’re right in differentiating and linking atheism per se. That is, atheism as the rejection of supernatural beliefs and Humanism has human flourishing as the ultimate moral good, and the scientific worldview states that we ought to base our beliefs on empirical verification and explanatory depth. They reinforce one another. Even though, they are not identical. Next steps, good question, I think some are a deeper understanding of human nature, of the sources of belief, sources of morality, and the conditions in which we are, more or less, rational. Why smart people can believe stupid things or, at least, irrational things? What are the social conditions allowing both humanistic and rational beliefs to bubble up, to become second nature? We have seen some this, particularly since WWII, where institutions are more secular and humanistic on average. However, we have seen the rise of authoritarian nationalism and populism. There are forces pushing against the Enlightenment cosmopolitan humanist worldview. What are the components of human nature allowing us to eke out a more humanistic worldview? What are the parts dragging this nature back down? What are the circumstances allowing human beings to flourish, as another line of inquiry? How come with all the improvements in objective human wellbeing, many countries do not have a commensurate rise in happiness? The United States is, by all measures, better off than 70 years ago. It is not much happier, if at all. Many countries are happier than the United States. Why is there so much grievance and anger despite the measurable improvements in people’s objective wellbeing? These are all fascinating empirical questions, which would reflect back on our moral worldview as well.

Jacobsen: Last question tied to a comment, so, Dr. Leo Igwe and I have been working through Advocacy for Alleged Witches (AfAW) to combat a big issue in the African continent around allegations of witchcraft and disbelief in witchcraft. You’ve made a donation and helped with social media on some coverage of this. So, thank you. There’s still a wide range of rationality and irrationality throughout the regions of the world. There will be wide disparities in the regions of the world based on the education systems, the wealth of the society, the rights implemented and not just stipulated. What do you believe or think needs the most pressure now, in the next few years, to move the dial towards Enlightenment Humanism and scientific rationality more than not?

Pinker: One is a rise in education. We know societies with more education are less vulnerable, though not immune, to supernatural beliefs, not least with witchcraft. An extraordinarily dangerous belief and prevalent across societies being more of a rule than an exception.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Pinker: It has to be singled out as a source of evil. Reminding people of the history, the accusers used to be the accused. Also, there is a need to promote a humanistic enlightened view as an alternative source of values and morality. You alluded to this before in tallying up the number of humanistic declarations. There is a need for them. Not, maybe, the declarations, but, certainly, the moral energy, it is not enough to debunk toxic beliefs. There has to be the promotion of moral values, which we can defend and strive towards. Humanism, for lack of a better word, is that belief system. It is one needing promotion in different guises. That is, it is not a question of appealing to superstitions and supernatural beliefs to be moral. In that, there is a coherent value system; namely, making people wealthier, happier, and healthier, more stimulated and safer, these are good things, moral things, and noble things. We haven’t found the right marketing, the right packaging, in order to promote them as a positive alternative to the toxic beliefs that we’re vulnerable to.

Jacobsen: Professor Pinker, thank you for your time, it was lovely.

Pinker: Thanks so much, Scott, it was good to talk to you.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Jon 8 – ‘We don’t want your thoughts and prayers. We want action.’

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/06/09

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New YorkHere we talk about the notion of thoughts and prayers in the context of Canada and America.

*Interview conducted on May 11, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, we are back with another Ask Jon. This time, we are going to be talking about an intersection between political leaders, whether at the state level or the national level, and then the chiselling away at some of the faith-based notions held in cultures, by and large. One of those deals with thoughts and prayers or the notion of an intervening God helping in the affairs in operating a state, city, or country. Let’s start with your case in New York, what was Cuomo’s comment or statement on coronavirus not too long ago?

Jonathan Engel: One thing that he said got a little bit of coverage, not a tremendous amount. He said, ‘Listen, prayer is not going to solve this for us. We have certain steps. That we have to take: stay at home orders, social distancing, wear a mask, wash your hands.’ He came out and said that. Which, in the United States, in many ways, it is a very religious country. It was extraordinary coming from him. He is not only the governor of the state that has the biggest city in the country. He is also the governor of the state that has the biggest coronavirus infection. It is not surprising given how many people come here. We get 40,000,000 tourists a year. People coming in and out. We live on top of each other in big buildings crammed into subways, which you can barely get into. It is not surprising. It is interesting that Cuomo has become quite an interesting figure in the United States. Because while Trump was doing his fact-free and knowledge-free daily coronavirus updates, Cuomo was doing them as well. People started to watch Cuomo more than Trump, even if not from New York state because Cuomo was giving the real deal and the truth: prayer is not going to stop this. It is not going to do it.

It said it in a matter-of-fact way. He was not saying it in a way to attack religion or anything. He said it in a matter-of-fact way. It is interesting because it is true and something that is unusual in this country, where people tend to give lip service to religious beliefs, whether they really believe them or not – especially political leaders. They feel that there’s never been much of an atheist political movement in this country. But religious politics – oh yes, very much so, it is to the fore. You will be more dangerous for a politician. “Dangerous” for being re-elected. It is more dangerous as a perception to say what he said rather than the Vice President Mike Pence thing with the picture of the Task Force kneeling in prayer prior to doing anything. Basically, they didn’t do much, so it didn’t really matter.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Engel: The words from Cuomo were very interesting. Perhaps, it is seeing a sea change in these types of things.

Jacobsen: In the Canadian case, we had one coronavirus unrelated, but a similar sentiment, with a case of a killing of more than 22 Canadians, or at least 22 Canadian, which amounts to the deadliest in the history of Canada of its kind. Our prime minister, and quoting now, said, “They were nurses and teachers, correctional officers and RCMP officers. They were someone’s child, someone’s best friend, someone’s partner. Their families deserve more than thoughts and prayers. Canadians deserve more than thoughts and prayers.” So, this followed an “effective immediately” banning of the buying, selling, import, or transport or use of military-grade assault-style weapons. It applies to 1,500 makes and models. So, that kind of statement came around one of the most dramatic murder sprees in Canadian history, which is, at least, 50% more than the one before it. It took an extreme event, more than the previous one. When it comes down to brass tax, even at the national level, there is a sensibility in Canada to have, at least, a boundary between what is reasonable and unreasonable, but it takes extreme circumstances to bring reality to bear upon the situation. I think this is an interesting commentary on North America, as we both know, with the Nones. I know people [Ed. Indi!] have problems with the term, so I won’t go into that.

Engel: I just wanted to comment on what you said. Something similar happened with the Parkland High School killings. A bunch of people were killed. After it happened, a lot of young people themselves – their parents too, but the ones who survived became very active for the movement for sane gun laws. One of the things that they were saying, ‘We don’t want your thoughts and prayers.’ It was the go-to for the politicians who had no intention of strengthening American gun laws or making them saner or anything like that. They had no intention of doing anything. What did they say? They would say, “Our thoughts and prayers are with the victims.” Then you had these kids. These high school kids who survived and saw their classmates have their heads blown off say, “We don’t want the thoughts and prayers. We want action. We want action on gun laws.” Which, by the way, we haven’t had much, except in Florida where this took place. They did pass some laws, not on the federal level, though. What they were saying to these sons of bitches politicians, who said, ‘We give our thoughts and prayers.’ Those who simply give thoughts and prayers, but don’t have to do anything and can get the sympathy of the public, “Oh, he’s a good guy.”

They’re coming out and saying, ‘We don’t want the thoughts and prayers. We want action.’ There is a subtext to that. The subtext is thoughts and prayers don’t do anything. Once you get into that, you think, ‘Wait a minute, thoughts and prayers don’t do anything?’ It is around the corner or a sideways, almost, assault on religion. They’re saying, “Prayers don’t do anything.” They’re talking about a context of gun violence. But if that is the case with regard to gun violence, then, heck, it is the case with pretty much everything. When things happen, when the gun massacre happens in San Antonio, Dayton, or wherever the hell, you are seeing fewer politicians hiding behind the thoughts and prayers fig leaf. The kids want something that actually works. It is an acknowledgement that prayers don’t work. So, I feel like, in this country, there is a little bit of a sea change. But how many people are making the connection? Some will say, “Of course, prayers work. I want new laws.” But if prayers worked, you wouldn’t need new laws. To me, that’s what I saw. Of course, I am an atheist. But I do think, and certainly hope, that this is a change: If they don’t work with gun violence, then they don’t work with anything else. Maybe, this can become a basis for questioning things. This is down the road.

This can apply to coronavirus too. There are a lot of religious people who said, “Jesus is protecting me,” “Allah is protecting me,” etc. Now, many are dead. Will people see the connection and see that this doesn’t work? If it doesn’t work with coronavirus or gun violence, then, maybe, it is time to question whether it works at all – and why or why not.

Jacobsen: Have you ever seen the “God Is Not Dead” series?

Engel: I have never seen it. I have heard of it, though.

Jacobsen: It has people like Kevin Sorbos in it.

Engel: [Laughing] I heard of him. He was Hercules or something like this.

Jacobsen: That’s right. He was a popular television star in the United States for the Hercules series among other things. I think he played the part of the atheist for it. I have seen clips and trailers, and some of the contexts and the script of it. Some of the commentaries on the film talks about a whole genre of Christian film with a consistent theme of a “Christian persecution complex.” This is coming out of American film or cinematography. It makes me think. When you have these kids coming out and saying these things in America, when at the same time there is a reaction of feeling under siege in America, how did the prominent Christian community who would be within the culture of a Christian persecution complex react to kids saying, “No more thoughts and prayers,” after several of their friends had been murdered in daylight before them?

Engel: Basically, they tied themselves in knots. There were some on the far-right, not necessarily religious leaders per se. My recollection, there were some who came out and attacked. There are the absolute far-right QAnon lunatics who said, “The whole thing was faked. No kids died. It was actors.” But then, you have people attacking them, “What do they know?” Going after them personally.

Jacobsen: They were going after kids?

Engel: A lot of the mainstream religious leaders, it was too fraught for them to come after these kids. For crying out loud, the things these kids went through. Even if they didn’t realize it would be wrong to go after these kids, they understand from a public relations standpoint. There is no attacking these kids, except for the extreme, extreme lunatic right. There is no attacking the kids and getting away with it, after what they had been through, especially after they said, ‘We don’t want your prayers.” They want action. As I said, there is a basic underlying understanding there; prayers aren’t action because they don’t do anything. The mainstream has gone farther and farther to the right in this country. It is one of the things, maybe, why young people are so powerful. They did manage to change some laws in Florida. Federally, they are still working on it. But are you going to attack these kids for saying, “Prayers don’t work”? It was too fraught, except for the most extreme lunatics to go after them.

Jacobsen: What is the long game here for thoughts and prayers culture in America?

Engel: These culture wars in the United States. I’m not sure. Nobody knows for sure how it will turn out. But the long game in a lot of ways is being out there and being an out atheist, having people know who you are – having people see you, etc. To get to the point where being an atheist is no different than being a Protestant, a Catholic, or a Jew, it is that type of basic understanding and basic acceptance of people who have different views. I don’t know how we get to that. I’m not really sure. But I think that’s the long game. Things like this. There are things like talking about Christian leaders and people who are saying, “We are giving up our safety, etc.” There has been a lot of backlashes. There will be a lot of backlashes. Awakenings here and there of religious fervour, but, hopefully, the further that we get down the track, the more people understand and can see for themselves. It is a matter of having to think for yourself. People will support you. But you have to think for yourself. We have to go ahead and teach our children to think for themselves. Once people feel more comfortable with it, I would hope that they would not need to have somebody telling them how to think because they understand that they can think for themselves. We are a long way from that, but people like you and I are fighting for it every day. We have to keep up the fight. Hopefully, as these things happen, they are gradual. Gradually, people will see thinking for themselves is liberating as opposed to being frightening.

Jacobsen: Jon, thank you!

Engel: Okay, Scott, thanks!

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Interview with Rev. Rob MacPherson – Minister, Unitarian Church of South Australia

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/06/06

Rev. Rob MacPherson is a Minister of the Unitarian Church of South Australia. Here we talk about coming to Unitarian Universalism, community, and philosophy.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Let’s start with some background questions quite naturally, what was some religious, or non-religious, background?

Rev. Rob MacPherson: I was raised a working class Catholic in a parish in the Archdiocese of Baltimore, the oldest Diocese in the country.

Jacobsen: How was religion talked about in the home, approached in the community, and established as a factor in friendships in earlier life?

MacPherson: The parish, and the parish school we went to, and the Boy Scout troupe the church sponsored, amounted to a sub-culture within our wider locality. Most of our friends and associates were in some way affiliated with the parish. It was more like a cult hiding in plain sight. My parents were very devout–my sister played the organ, my father was a cantor, my mother taught Sunday school and was involved in women’s groups like Sodality, and my brothers and I were altar boys. The nuns were to be feared, the priests were gods, and a visit from the bishop was like the second coming. It was total indoctrination through social manipulation, psychological pressure, and the epistemic authority of the Church.

Jacobsen: What was the point of affirming Unitarian Universalist values for you?

MacPherson: A free and responsible individualized spiritual journey.

Jacobsen: If you think about the ways in which Unitarian Universalism lives out its principles and is like by most people, except various forms of fundamentalists, what brings people into community? Because a large number of people exist in these churches and communities than they may realize at this time.

MacPherson: They come because they are seeking a genuine, non-mediated experience of spirituality that makes sense to them. If they stay, it’s because they find they like to be around fellow religious misfits, and can sit with people with whom they fundamentally disagree about important things.

Jacobsen: When did you decide to become a reverend?

MacPherson: I had ‘the call’ in 2006. 

Jacobsen: What is the process for becoming a reverend?

MacPherson: There are a few pathways, but none of them in Australia. I applied for training with the UK Unitarians (I am also a UK citizen). After the paper application filtering stage, they invited 6 of the applicants to their school at Harris Manchester Oxford for a weekend’s in-person interviews and auditions. Of the 6, 5 were accepted for training. 4  became Ministers, and now only 2 of us are left in full-time ministry. I was sent to Unitarian College Manchester to train. I took a Postgrad Dip in Contextual Theology (accredited by Uni Manchester) after one year living there on a 10k bursary and my own savings. I was set to do a second year as an student pastor of a small congregation somewhere in the UK, but my Adelaide congregation was in crisis and called me back to take the pulpit prematurely in mid-2011. As a result I am what’s called ‘locally ordained’ as I never finished the apprenticeship in the UK. I have since applied to the UUA for full accreditation after nearly ten years on the job full time. That process should be completed by the end of this year and I will be accredited by the UUA.

Jacobsen: Now, you’re at Unitarian Church of South Australia. What does a typical service look like before coronavirus?

MacPherson: About 60-75 minutes of singing, music, storytelling, sharing check-ins, preaching and mediations/reflection, all supported by a projector AV system.

Jacobsen: What does a typical service look like during coronavirus restrictions?

MacPherson: They vary according to who’s taking the service–since March this year, I stepped down to part-time status to take up a full-time chaplaincy at the Pembroke school, so am only offering one service a month. Mine is an uploaded ppt slideshow with hotlinks for music singalongs and reflection music, plus a YouTube version of the same service. There’s a children’s story, a guided meditation, a reading, some invocations, and an address.

Jacobsen: With services moving online and with the podcast running, what have been some of the more popular themes and ideas?

MacPherson: Not sure I understand this question–themes and ideas of services or of the move to digital?

Jacobsen: You were preceded by Rev. Jo Lane from 2006-2011 and have been the Rev. for the Unitarian Church of South Australia since 2011. What has been learned while part of the community for such a long time?

MacPherson: Too much to say on this, but here are a few scraps–That everyone you meet has something to teach you, so they must be welcomed with a joyful and humble heart. That continual transformation is the purpose and path of ministry, and so keeping your own soul still and still moving is far more critical than trying to influence or shape that of others. That ministry of the word is a slow process of accretion. That the medium of the Spirit (the minister) is the message–it matters more what sort of person you are with them, than what you say. That church is at its best when it’s not a debate society, nor a book club, nor a ladies-of-a-certain-age gardening and knitting circle. Church is at its best when it provides a safe space for worshippers to travel deep into themselves, bear up others with whom they have little in common, be radically open to the world outside its walls. 

Jacobsen: You have a focus on social justice and community outreach. Some of the programs and areas of focus include Australian Churches Refugee Taskforce (ACRT), Australian Religious Response to Climate Change (ARRCC), The Welcoming Congregation Program, and with a focus on asylum seekers, marriage equality, and poverty alleviation. Can you expand on some of the manifestations of the programs and areas of focus in community, please?

MacPherson: Mainly advocacy. We go to demos as a visibly branded church group, thus sending he message that our theology is in accord with human rights. I have spoken at public gatherings, written journalism, done TV interviews to offer a liberal religious response to things that matter in contemporary life. As a church, we divested from non-ethical investments and are now a model small church for the ARRCC. We have invited guest speakers to our hosted public talks on a range of such topics. We have collected for related charities, petitioned, and offered our meeting house free for non profit social justice groups.

Jacobsen: Who are the Kaurna people? What is the importance of land acknowledgement for the Unitarian Church of South Australia?

MacPherson: They are the traditional indigenous owners of the land of the Adelaide Plains where the church has drawn its life and livelihood since 1854. They are part of the oldest continuous human culture on the planet, and their experience is of a strong spiritual bond with the land itself. This land was conquered, but has never been ceded, and it is of continuing spiritual importance to the many living Kaurna people today. The least we can do as recent settlers is to acknowledge this and pay our respect. It is a way of humbling ourselves, seeking reconciliation, and ultimately justice.

Jacobsen: What is Lectio Divina?

MacPherson: I means “divine reading”, and is an old Catholic mystical practice which I’ve adapted to the UU theology. Basically it uses (not a Bible but) a book of crowd-sourced readings, anything people associated with the church have turned to for inspiration, consolation or guidance. We read, reflect, and allow ourselves to free associate about it with the question–‘what is this trying to say to me here and now.’ We do not debate each others’ responses, but allow each their own experience of the words.

Jacobsen: How are the principles of sources of wisdom lived out in the life of a UU member?

MacPherson: That’s up to each individual. We are non-doctrinal and reject coercion.

Jacobsen: If people want to become involved, how can they do so?

MacPherson: Contact the church, follow us on our many digital platforms, attend Sunday worship. Get involved in some of our groups. A good place to start is to chat to me about what you’re seeking and what your expectations are.

Jacobsen: Any recommended books or speakers on the subject?

MacPherson: Leading contemporary voices in our movement include Rev Forrest Church and Rev Marylin Sewell. There are introductions and UU ‘pocket guides’ available a uua.org.

Jacobsen: Any final feelings or thoughts in conclusion based on the interview today?

MacPherson: Nope, thanks for the chance to talk about our movement!

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Rev. MacPherson.

MacPherson: You are very welcome.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Jon 7 – Mammon: Religion as a Political Currency

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/06/05

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New YorkHere we talk about Bill de Blasio and ultra-Orthodox political currency.

*Interview conducted on May 4, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Bill de Blasio, Mayor of the “Big Apple,” what is the case with some of the Orthodox Hasidic community and the change in tone over the last week with him?

Jonathan Engel: He finally took a stand on something. The ultra-Orthodox community in New York City concentrated in Brooklyn has, historically, had a lot of political power because they are a powerful voting bloc. They tend to be a powerful voting group and vote as a bloc. The top rabbis will say, “This is who I am supporting.” The congregations will go out and vote for them. The politicians will court them, “If you can get the rabbi to say you’re the guy, then you’ve got the bloc.” De Blasio has been different than his predecessor Bloomberg. He has really bent over backwards. I will give some quick examples of him not doing what he should have done. With the ritual, believe or not, of the bris, Jewish boys are born. There is a ceremony involving the circumcision. So very few, but some ultra-Orthodox, part of the ceremony, it is going to sound weird, because it sounds weird to me. And I grew up Reformed Jewish. The mohel, the guy who does the circumcision puts his lips to the penis to suck out some of the blood. It is weird. Yes, okay, it also raises the chances of the mohel passing herpes to the child if the mohel has herpes. It can lead to devastating effects, including death.

So, when Bloomberg was mayor, the Department of Health issued an edict, “You cannot do this.” A small amount of Hasidic people were up in arms. De Blasio says, “Okay, we’re going to give you advice not to do it. We won’t issue an order, but just advice.” It’s like, “Man, you are putting the public health over this. You are putting the health of small children at risk over this.”

Jacobsen: The elephant in the room is a religious practice, a religious cultural practice.

Engel: That’s right. Another example is in the Department of Education with ultra-Orthodox kids raised in religious schools called yeshivas. There have been reports. I have heard it from people who graduated from yeshivas. A woman said that she graduated and could barely do high school mathematics and science. All she was taught was about religion.

Jacobsen: I have heard from friends who left.

Engel: Yeah! The state education department, there are some things for every private school, whether religious or not. You still have to follow state guidelines. When reports were coming out, de Blasio was supposed to have the city Department of Education investigate. He really, really dragged his feet. It was left to the state education department to do real legwork to get this stuff done. With that kind of background with Bill de Blasio, I was pleased that he took a different track on a similar issue. It was a senior rabbi who died. When a senior rabbi dies, it is a big deal. They are attended by hundreds and thousands of people with streets blocked off. During the pandemic, you can’t do that. People did organize the funeral to try to make it so people would social distance. They lost control of it. So, you had a whole bunch of people mostly not wearing masks crowded shoulder to shoulder. De Blasio, this time, said, “I cannot allow this. We’ve got thousands and thousands of people dying in New York City.” He said, “Enough,” and sent in the police to break it up. The Police Commissioner was upset by the whole thing. 10% of the police force was out recovering from coronavirus to risk their lives while trying to break this thing up. It’s been interesting.

Jacobsen: To a fair point question, are there any other religious or non-religious groups not only in Brooklyn but in New York state where this happened? A large gathering grounded in a belief system, religious or cultural, where there was required or a need for breaking it up.

Engel: Not that I know of, I am not going to say, “It hasn’t happened,” but not that I know. The churches and synagogues have been doing virtual stuff. This is a very small minority of Jews, even in New York City. Most Jews are not ultra-Orthodox or Hasidic. Jewish congregations are doing the same things as churches and mosques, which is holding their services online, doing virtual services, and so on. I have not heard of anything. One of the reasons for this being an interesting question is the Hasidic and non-Hasidic groups of being borderline anti-Semitic for doing this or for what he said afterwards, which, in my view, was really ridiculous. He said, ‘You can’t do this. I am not going to make some separate exemption for Jewish people. You can’t do this.’ Some said, ‘Oh! You lumped all Jewish people together. We are only a small group.’ De Blasio said, ‘No, I didn’t!’ He’s right in this case. I am attuned to anti-Semitism. I can tell you, “This wasn’t it.”

Jacobsen: In the United Kingdom, mostly women running this particular campaign, but it’s also some men too. All are mostly around the identity of former Muslims. They have the campaign One Law for All. They have the issue around separate Islamic courts in the U.K., which creates a secular law for all, as per standard issue of the legal system, and then a distinct secondary legal system based on some interpretations of “religious law.” I believe the same campaign spirit of interpretation can be applied to New York. It is one country, one state. It’s one law for all. If you exclude yourself, then you are considering yourself above the law as a religio-cultural group.

Engel: It is fascinating. If you applied that to the United States, we have freedom of religion, but there are restrictions on it. This is coming up mostly in the most religious parts of the country, like in Brooklyn in Borough Park where Hasidic Jews dominate the area. But some states in the South in the United States; you have some Christian denominations that are larger swathes of those states. You have some pushback by some people saying that they want to hold a service. There was one guy named Tony Spell in Louisiana, who has been under house arrest!

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Engel: Because he has been telling congregates to “come on out!” It is a very interesting thing, in my view, because a lot of this comes down to “How much do you really believe this stuff?” I supposed: if you are really a true believer, why not come out?! “Jesus and God will protect me.” We are hearing this all the time here. “God will protect me, and us. Why shouldn’t we go into church and have our services?”

Jacobsen: If God is always open for business, why the need to close the buildings?

Engel: That’s a good question.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Engel: “If they go out, they’re only risking their own lives.” Yeah, but they are going to go home and go to the store! If only adults of age could go there and only risk their own lives, I still wouldn’t like it. But that’s the problem. Because you’re risking a lot of people’s lives when you do that, including hospital workers and medical workers. They are already overwhelmed. If you get sick, then you will want them to treat you, right? We have a First Amendment, which allows freedom of religion. Yes, we do. It does allow freedom of religion. There are always limits. In a national emergency, that’s when you see real limits nationally. In our country, it is a very religious country in spots. You are seeing people saying, “Our freedom of religion says…” or similar to what you say about Sharia, “I answer to a higher authority than the civil, secular law.” The problem is, you get to pick the authority and what it says – don’t you? If it says to kill someone, are we supposed to follow that too? No, you can worship in synagogues and mosques, but not many follow the law. Once again, your right to believe in your religion ends when my health is involved. Your right to swing your arm around ends at my nose.

Jacobsen: Jon, thanks as always.

Engel: Okay, and thank you too, Scott, and stay healthy!

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Interview with Rev. Jim Parrish Minister – UU Fellowship of Fayetteville, AR

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/06/04

Rev. Jim Parrish is the Minister of the UU Fellowship of Fayetteville, AR. Here we talk about coming to Unitarian Universalism, community, and philosophy.

*Interview conducted on June 3, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, my line of questions tend to set a tone about a story. We are our stories. Our stories will live on after us. Therefore, as a species, narrative is more important than anything in our lives. We build our sense of self around them. In your own family background, was there any sense of Unitarian Universalism? Or was this something that developed as you grew up and became more independent?

Rev. Jim Parrish: I came across Unitarian Universalist philosophy early in life. I grew up on a farm in Kansas. The upbringing was that of equity and caring for people. The small town that I grew up in had a Methodist Church and a Mennonite Church too. Probably, the largest population was Mennonite. We were part of the Methodist Church. I went through the classes and everything to join the church. To me, the classes, in some ways, created more questions, especially when it came to learning creed. I read a lot. I was a child of the World Book Encyclopedia. I went through it several times. This was back in the 60s and 70s. Looking for information, it was a time of change. It was a time still of the space race. We were going to the moon, which was a huge thing. I was a science and, probably, theology nerd. I read a lot of literature. When it came time to ask the questions between the two, theology and science, for example, I used my barn on the farm. If I laid down in front of my house and looked south, back in the day, the clear Kansas sky in the night, the Milky Way would be shining. I would be looking at Sagittarius in the south. We were learning more and more about the universe that we lived in. It was the center of our Milky Way. It was set towards Sagittarius.

The question came to me, “If the God of my Methodism, the Methodist Church, was the God of all of this too, what I was being taught and narrowly sold, was not big enough, the God was not holding onto all of the people of the planet. There were wars. There were famines. There was a conflict in Northern Ireland. My best friend who wasn’t Methodist meant we couldn’t be friends. Religion was not stepping in and saying, ‘No, no, wait, this is about one thing.’ Why are we are war with each other? Why aren’t we stopping wars?” It wasn’t what was being taught. I was going to have to find out what religion was all about because, obviously, it was not good enough for me at that time. I kept reading. I would go to school. Eventually, I did find Unitarian Universalism mentioned in a book in the libraries. I continued to search. I thought, “The description of UU, this is probably what I am. But in Kansas, I have little in the way of resources.” I went to college, eventually, in engineering. I went to the Unitarian Universalist fellowship in Manhattan, Kansas. They were the liberal, where you could ask questions about religion, folks. The fellowship was full of professors. I didn’t hang out with professors. They were pretty boring. it would be later on when I would finish university. 

Also, in college, I found a book called The Gnostic Gospels by Elaine Pagels. These were the gospels rejected by Constantine’s church, who, basically, formed a church because he wanted the power to wield. These books were rejected because they would not provide a platform for that. Religion had another dimension. It was like, “This is a very human power and politics thing. Religions are intermixed.” It answered a few other questions. Going to getting out of school, going to get a job in Rockford, Illinois, where I went to and found a modest to large-sized Unitarian group of 500 or so people, this was home. This was where I found my religious self. I went to classes there. I did engineering for 25-ish years in Rockford. I decided it was a young person’s game. I had been through the hierarchy in the Unitarian church there. I decided to become a UU minister. I retired from engineering. I went to the seminary at Meadville Lombard Theological School in Chicago. I was ordained and graduated there in 2012. I have been ministering since. I went to interim ministry in Topeka, Kansas for two years. Then I was called to the UU Fellowship of Fayetteville, AR. That’s the mini-bio [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing] Now, if you’re talking all of this life experience and training in the philosophy and lifestance of Unitarian Universalism, what does a service look like? In other words, the important points of contact and the ways of conveying this philosophy to a community who make a conscious choice to attend a service and listen intently to a rendition of communal values, where they agree, fundamentally, with the ideas and concepts, and the feeling, coming from said values.

Parrish: Let’s step back into the central piece of Unitarian Universalism, the principles, they are our history evolved. Have you seen the book on the principles? It is a small book. Track it down, if you haven’t seen it, it’s about the history of the principles. Basically, the principles, every decade or longer will change. We will have a new set of principles. The principles were formed in the beginning when the UUA formed. They were going to be creeds to declare who they were. As Unitarianism and Universalists had their own thing going, until they joined with us in 1961, Unitarians, as they evolved, would change the principles. Transcendentalism changed Unitarianism early on. Transcendentalism about thinking outside of the box to a degree where that’s our opening to developing Humanism, eventually, allowing feminist philosophy joins with Unitarianism, allow Universalists and others, and the movements for abolition and suffrage. We were open to it. We had the good. We had the principles. What can change the world for the good, people are good. We have to embrace more and more ways of being. We did it badly sometimes, but we were always trying to do it. I will jump ahead to when Humanism came along. It was quite the fight of Liberal Christianity and the non-theism of Humanism and way of being and religion. 

The ability to survive that and to create a space for more feminism, who created the sources and insisted: after the Unitarians and the Universalists came together, the principles formed at the time were still not respecting women, children, and men. It was all very patriarchal. The principles were hammered out over several committees and general assemblies. To me, they are still open. In fact, what is happening today, it tells me. There is a huge opening again. Circling back to the meaning of the sources, it is fascinating and wonderful. One of the things that I and other worshippers try to do is worship around the meaning of the principles, “How do we understand them? How do we practice them?” We vary the sources within the services. We leave open spaces. So, people of different sources. I have pagans. I have humanists. I have mostly those two. I have Buddhists who practice Asian philosophy, including Daoism, etc. 

There are some who I am missing. Others who do not want to state while accepting the principles. For me, and for my community of worship, we have a message that “here’s what is happening in the world. Here is how Unitarians might look at that.” We bring people in to speak on different areas like Islam. What is happening in Islam? Someone who lives out the religion. The other spaces around it are left neutral for folks to be who they are within them based on choices and concerns. We have a silent prayer. The music from our hymnal, we try to create a worship that allows folks to be who they are, where they are, within Unitarian Universalist religious being. Also, it is to challenge then within the source as well. I ask, “Do you know as a UU Christian has meaning to a lot of UUs? It helps inform their lives as a UU humanist. Do you understand how that works? Are you in conversation with that?” I believe religious naturalism is a development of Humanism and Paganism coming together. The pagan world is about the natural world and science. I love science. But it can be kind of dry and uninspiring. So, paying attention to the evolutions is fascinating.

Jacobsen: There is an interesting phrase from a deceased writer-philosopher. He said, paraphrasing, ‘If we are alone in the universe, or if there are extraterrestrial civilizations in the universe, then either is a terrifying fact’ [Laughing].

Parrish: [Laughing].

Jacobsen: Similarly, we live in a very big place at any reasonable scale relative to human beings. So, a religious sensibility, by which I mean one in which you either imply a sense of awe and wonder about the universe or a basis for moral and ethical teachings, can provide a foundation for more communal solidarity more than the dry quasi-liturgical statements coming from a scientific textbook. Outside of the works of Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson or the late Carl Sagan with a gift for words. It can be a dry presentation. Sometimes, or many times, individuals who accept all of the foundational facts and theoretical frameworks for understanding the natural world, adding a sense of awe in a formal communal framework can be a lovely addition to one’s life. 

Parrish: Yes.

Jacobsen: If I look at the decline in a lot of fundamentalist religion in some of the developed world, then I believe the Satanists, the Ethical Culturalists, the Ethical Society people, the Humanists, the Unitarian Universalists, and others, are important for providing an alternative, a healthy and productive alternative, for a social species. So, for individuals who might be looking, searching, in transition out of a traditional religious framework or questioning one, or out of one and just floating, how can they get involved and find a Unitarian Universalist online group or physical space from which to build a new and conscious community for themselves?

Parrish: If they’re looking for one, it is oddly more accessible, as it is all over Facebook and social media, and the UUA website. It is really a great resource for connection, especially to the churches nearby. Church of the Larger Fellowship is an online version, which does great work of allowing folks to tap in. Right now, all of our services are online. You can find out how to join the services. You don’t have to try; you can be in Oklahoma, Missouri, anywhere. You don’t have to be in Arkansas. That’s the way it is for a lot of places now. I would say all of those are really good resources. 

Jacobsen: If individuals have a change of mind about the religious upbringing or the religion in mind for them, what about books or authors who articulate the Unitarian Universalist vision well? Any recommendations along those lines?

Parrish: It is interesting. As a youth, I read a lot of science fiction. There was a lot of Unitarian Universalist philosophy in science fiction. It has changed. Science fiction has evolved too. I am reading a lot more science fiction from women of colour and other cultures. It is fascinating. The answer is, “Books” [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Parrish: I look on my shelf here. If you want to try an African American humanist, Anthony Pinn, he’s a little academic, The End of God-Talk: An African American Humanist Theology. The book which I have dragged with me for decades. It is The Values of Belonging: Rediscovering Balance, Mutuality, Intuition, and Wholeness in a Competitive World of Carol Flinders. What that gave me, it was a sense of what religion was about. Religion, if you go back beyond the agricultural era, agriculture is where you had the religion of the kings and queens as a handmaiden for control. Religion to a hunter-gatherer society was how they lived, how they were in relationship to one another and the world around them. Unitarian Universalism and Religious Naturalism are trying to get to that. That’s what religion should be about. But it has been co-opted for power and greed for way too long. An odd one has an interesting view: A God That Could be Real: Spirituality, Science, and the Future of Our Planet by Nancy Abrams. Have you seen that one?

Jacobsen: No, what is the content?

Parrish: She is a quantum physicist. She’s a writer for science. She needed a sense of God, but because of addictions. She was searching for a God that might be real. She was looking to quantum physics, neuroscience, and things, to kind of come up with an idea of God, which is more like an idea of a God that is like the riots that break out o hold human culture accountable for its failures. It is a God that happens between people and is created as needed, as life changes. That’s a simple way of putting it. Her book is complicated. So, there are some books, I suppose. 

Jacobsen: My final question: Any final feelings or thoughts in conclusion based on the conversation today?

Parrish: [Laughing] In the end, Unitarian Universalism is relatively simple. It comes down to the sources, which are brilliant in bringing together people in relationships in all these different ways. Looking at the principles and saying, “They evolved. How do we sort that out?” It is putting them up into the air and saying, “Our principles and sources are open for revision. They aren’t frozen in time. You don’t recite them. You, actually, incite them. You say, ‘I am going to evoke them. If they don’t work, then I will go back to pragmatic experimentation and try something different to see if it is, hopefully, approved,’ then see how that goes for a while.” It is an open-source religion. It is the only way that I think it should be.

Jacobsen: Rev. Parrish, thank you very much for your time.

Parrish: Well, thank you!

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Jon 6 – Ode to a National Ideological Dichotomy: All for All or All for Themselves

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/06/02

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New YorkHere we talk about collectivist and individualist trends in America and the modern health of the nation.

*Interview conducted on March 30, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, we may be entering a once in a century issue. A pandemic that has been compared to, maybe not with the same severity but certainly compared to, the Spanish Flu in 1918/19. In the United States, New York state is where the pandemic disease is leading. What are some of the preliminary thoughts on that fact? That New York state in the United States is leading the pack in cases of coronavirus?

Jonathan Engel: New York City is the center of the world. As I sit here in New York City, in my apartment with nowhere to go, it is not surprising to me in a lot of ways. Because it makes some sense. Not trying to sound too arrogant about it, but we get a lot of visitors. We get a lot of visitors. People came here to work, people for meetings, people for conferences and, of course, millions upon millions of tourists. Of course, the other thing is we live on top of each other. I was talking to a friend of mine who lives in South California, near San Diego yesterday. I was thinking. Then he goes out to do something. He gets to his car. He has bought himself. He goes there. I go out to do something. I get into the subway. I am packed like a sardine.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Engel: Because we live on top of each other, in terms of our homes, of course, we have apartment buildings. My sister the other day, she lives in a house in the suburbs. I said, “Do you want to go out and take a walk? You don’t have to go down the elevator and share with the other people going into the lobby, where there might be other people.” It is harder. Because we have so many visitors, and so many people coming out of the city, and because we live so right on top of each other. It is not surprising that New York would be the epicenter, with New York City, generally. It’s not at all surprising. Whenever that may happen or does not happen, or whatever it is, I am not surprised by it. I do not think this is God trying to punish the evil New Yorkers who live for being liberals, for not hating homosexuals. I think there is a more rational explanation for why New York is the epicenter. That is what I said because we have so many visitors coming in and out of the city.

Jacobsen: How is this pandemic being exploited by some religious leaders in the United States?

Engel: It’s an interesting question because I think every time there’s some disaster; there’s always some religious leaders saying, especially the orange conservative’s ones, saying, “Oh! This is all punishment because we allowed gay marriage, we allowed abortion,” or whatever else it may be. So, there’s always that case. It happens again, plenty of preachers are out there saying, “This is God punishing us for this or that or whatever.” Then, it occurs to them, and then it crosses their mind that this may be God’s punishment for us putting little 5-year-old South American kids in cages. They are Mexican born. I mean, maybe, God is punishing us for that or utterly ridiculous things, but there’s people out there and will always be out there. The danger is some of these people believe this stuff and that become even dangerous because there are pastors holding churches. I think it’s going down the number because they’re starting to see what’s going on but there are still some out there that are, “Oh, come on in. Everyone, come on in. We are not going to let these people tell us. We are not going to let government tell us that we can’t pray.”

Of course, you can pray. You can pray anytime and anywhere you want. You cannot gather, but there are still some saying that and that is a tremendous danger in this country. I mean, it’s not only religions. We have thousands of 20-year-old knuckleheads found on the beaches of Miami saying, “Oh, it’s Spring break. We’re going to party and we’re not afraid of that coronavirus.” So, it is not all religions, but it is a big factor. Jerry Falwell Jr., who is the president of Liberty University in Virginia, the son of the evangelical leader Jerry Falwell Sr., he reopened the school. There are universities across the country. I mean, all schools but also universities that closed. My older brother’s a professor at the University of Oklahoma in Norman, Oklahoma. He is teaching via video, a video link, etc. That is how he is doing his lectures and that is how pretty much everybody is doing it, but Jerry Falwell Jr. decided, ‘President Trump wants us open; I’m going to be open.’ So, Liberty University is open and now. People at Liberty University are starting to test positive.

So, yes, there are definitely people who are looking to take advantage. Not to mention, there are religious people. It’s a better, nicer phrase than nut jobs, but they’re not “nut jobs” because they’re businessmen who are selling, handling fake cures. Jim Bakker, the famous Jim Bakker from the PTL network, he was involved in scandalous stuff. He is making a comeback with some crap that he saw on TV that he says will cure the coronavirus. So, there is another way that there are some. It is always holy water, words, whatever. Again, not all those conmen are religious in nature, but a lot of them are. Why? If you want to get people to believe in something that’s not real, religious people tend to be susceptible for that. So, that is another aspect of “you can do this” or “you can do that,” or “you can send me a hundred dollars” types of evangelists, whatever. It will protect you from the coronavirus. Some guy is saying in Florida, ‘I want my community coming on Sunday. It’s not killing my church. I will destroy the coronavirus. I destroyed it.’ It’s like, “Oh! That was you who did it? I should know that.” So, you got that thing going on. It’s extremely dangerous.

Jacobsen: Is this scummy, snake oil salesmanship simply more naked during the pandemic?

Engel: You would think so, but there’s always money to be made. I think it was P.T. Barnum who said this, “There’s a sucker born every minute.” Maybe, there was H.L. Mencken. I think he is the one who said, “You would never go broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.” So, there is always going to be somebody out there. It is sad in so many ways because you are going to give people hope and what you’re peddling is not going to help.

Jacobsen: In the United States, after the Second World War, there was the Healing Revival Movement. It has been called this in retrospect by historians. This was a collective movement of several prominent, eventually men, fundamentalist Christian men, who led large numbers of people. Often, they based themselves on fear. Others, they based themselves on the presentation as God’s main modern-day prophet. William Branham in The Message (Branhamite theology) portrayed himself as some last prophet of God, basically, the last prophet. With a lot of these cases of religious fundamentalism tied to snake oil salesmanship in the United States in the midst of the pandemic, is there a possibility, a real possibility, of something like a revivalist movement, as there has been a large number of religious revivals in the United States through its history at turbulent points when people are looking for answers?

Engel: Sure, it is possible. Of course, I hope not, but, of course, it is possible because when many people get overwhelmed with things that are difficult to understand, etc. They want some answers when it is a complicated world. During a tragedy, you said, after World War II, or now, sure, there are some people who will be more drawn. “Give me a simple answer. This is horrible. I lost a loved one. I have lost whatever, and I feel loveless. Please, give me something that I do not have to think for myself. I do not have to work things out to myself. Somebody or some institution that will tell me how to live, what to do and promise me heaven because right now, Earth looks hell. So, promise me that I’ll be in heaven someday.” There is an appeal to that. I understand that, but I do not know. I am pessimistic, but I am wondering. Hoping, that maybe, it will flip the other direction. I mean, listen, look at it this way, a couple of things that are the right wing’s way of looking at things. Both religious and nonreligious, certainly, question to people who are willing to view a possibility that is not supernatural.

For example, obviously, there has been a lot of praying going on that does not seem to be working. There was no effect. It was 2 weeks ago that Trump called for a day of prayer in the United States to fight coronavirus. A couple of days later, I read in a magazine, Patheos, a headline that said, “Prayer vs. Coronavirus. We have a winner.” And it was not prayer. So, people see that that is not the way out. That is not going to work. Do people say, “Hmm, maybe, that doesn’t work”? But also, in this country, it has been an anti-government. The right wing has been anti-government since the days of Ronald Reagan. Ronald Reagan used to say things, ‘The scariest things in the English language are ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help,’’ or something like, ‘Government is not the solution, it’s the problem.’ So, there has been a desire among the right in this country to dismantle the federal government. What they do is, when they are in power, they enact people in the country. So, when democrats are in power and say, “Okay, I want to propose the Affordable Care Act or Medicare,” the response is, “We do not have the money. We’re going to run out of money.”

“You passed a trillion dollars for the richest people in the country. That is why we don’t have the money.” “I don’t know, but we don’t have the money.” Maybe people are starting to realize, I hope, that there are some things requiring not only the government as a solution, but a federal government’s solution. This one of them. I mean, we have states right now, out there competing, driving up the price of ventilators, which are desperately needed to save people’s lives because there is no federal coordination of it. I mean, the federal government could. This is an emergency. The federal government could say, “Okay, states, we are going to buy all the ventilators. There will be no competition and we will allocate them to the states. We will have expected that if we give ventilators to say, New York City, right now, then they start coming down while other areas of the country are going up. Then New York City will then pass the ventilators along to other places that needs them more when New York City doesn’t need them. Federal government is going to do that.” I mean, there is no private enterprise that is going to ensure that each day gets a fair proportion of the supplies etc. They are not going to do that, and in states where government can’t do that by themselves. So, I’m hoping that people will see that sometimes; we need a federal government response or something that only the federal government can do and then you bridge over to health care. I am hoping that people get a look and say, “Listen, we have to have every person covered in this country.”

We can’t have a situation where people are like, ‘Oh, I can’t go to the hospital. I do not feel good. I have got a fever. I have been coughing. But if I go to the hospital, they may admit me and then I am going to get a bill for a hundred thousand dollars. Then, I ain’t got it. I ain’t going to the bank. I ain’t losing any penny I have. I’ll try to wait it out.” That will pass the infection further. I’m hoping that, at least, some people realize, who have been against the federal government and against ObamaCare. Because they didn’t like Obama and were against Medicare for All because of the perception of socialism. It is seen as socialism. Give me a freakin’ break. I’m hopeful that people will look at this at the least and say, “Okay, we got to have a system where everybody’s got covered, where everybody’s got access to health care that’s not going to bankrupt me.” I do not know; I always think of myself as a pessimist. I am not optimistic about that, but I do hope. I do hope that people will come to that light and, at least, look back even if they do not give up their religion, which would be nice too. But we have to get off this nonsense about socialism, medicine, and all the rest of that nonsense and realize, “It’s 21st-century America. We must have, must have, must have a health care system that is for everyone. Every person in the country. You get sick. You will get covered. You will not go bankrupt. We are all going to pay to that together.” Do you have something like that in Canada?

Jacobsen: By accident of history, we do not have national pharmacare. If we had national pharmacare, then we could have a national bargaining system, in other words, with large pharmaceutical companies. We do not have it. We are worse for it, in terms of a value in Canadian society around equity rather than autonomy. If you talk to a leading medical expert, in terms of what do nation’s value in their medical system, Canada and most other Western countries place the value on equity. Hence, they have national health care; and in other cases, they even have national pharmacare systems to help with the general health of the public. In other words, everyone gets a reasonably comprehensive package of medical care. This is part of something akin to a John Rawlsian social contract.

Engel: Right.

Jacobsen: In the United States, they have a value of autonomy, of freedom, of “my way or the highway,” and then ‘government ain’t going to tell me what to do.’ This is autonomy. So, if you take an objective evaluation of values, then the United States and its emphasis on the individual where people can be free to speak their minds, more or less, and write what they want more than any other country in the world, as per the First Amendment of the United States Constitution. This bleeds in to values of freedom that influence things in terms of what people want in a health care system. Of course, this is probably going to change as values shift overtime, but in the short term, at least, Canadian society values equity over autonomy and the United States values autonomy over equity. This value difference is one of the big differences in the reasons for the types of health care systems. This came in through Tommy Douglas provincially, and then this was quickly seen as reasonable thing among Canadian province to province, and then it went to federal level with Lester B. Pearson. Now, since the 1970s, we have a national health care system for the better. At the same time, the Humanist Association of Canada, Humanist Canada, was formed 51 or so years ago with Henry Morgentaler, who almost singlehandedly brought about freedom for women in this country around reproductive rights. He was a medical doctor. So, that idea of a national health care system and Humanism; all these other things are intimately tied up with one another.

Engel: Yes, I think that is a good point. One of the things that I have said for a while is that, one of the things that troubles America is that Americans have seen too many John Wayne movies.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Engel: And they think that the answer to the problem is one guy coming into town and taking care of all the bad guys.

Jacobsen: Or the occasion of Uma Thurman Kill Bill.

Engel: Yes, [Laughing] okay, the American thinking is the guy sitting on a horse. New York City’s police department still has horses. So even though, I am a city guy. I think of the horse.

Jacobsen: That is not surprising to the Canadian police forces, to have horses. Some will wear the same costumes during parades and stuff. Those big red-and-brown costumes.

Engel: Yes, for parades and things, it is a good idea for the horse because they are both mobile, give a police officer of view of everything that is going on around them that they would not see if they’re staying on the ground. But I do think that is true, though. I think that there is such a history in this country. Of the rugged individualism, is what we call it, you can be drowned. That is the thing too. For a number of years now, you see happy stories about some guy who’s sick and couldn’t pay his $50,000 medical fees, so, maybe, a charity steps in or, maybe, they did a GoFundMe page for the guy. You see all these stories, or all of people who contributed to the GoFundMe to the help a person who was sick and didn’t have health insurance and didn’t have money to pay for it. It is all great on a micro basis. But now, we are seeing the whole damn country getting sick on a macro basis. We cannot set up a GoFundMe page to help everybody who’s going to need help in this situation. You can talk about charity. Charity is wonderful, but, sometimes, the response that needed in this situation is so huge and so overwhelming. Charity not going to do it; GoFundMe is not going to do it.

The only thing that can do it is a federal government. The only thing that can do it. It is the only thing that can address a problem like this. If an individual, what are you going to when a person shows up with symptoms of coronavirus who has no health insurance and no way to pay for care? So, when it was not coronavirus, what do you do with a person who shows up with cancer? What do you do with a person who shows up with a broken leg? You are going to turn them away? And there are people in this country who would say, “Yes,” to that, “That’s their problem. They didn’t do what they needed to do,” or whatever it is or etc. There is that rugged individualism, which can work into callousness easily and quickly. But this situation that we have now, if you could take that paper and show up at the hospital, and if they’re coughing and a high fever, you can’t say, “You are on your own. Go ahead! Sorry.” Because you are going to send them back out there. How many more people are they going to infect? This is a nationwide problem. They require us all to work together. Rugged individuals are not going to do it. Again, my hope, maybe, in there is that people look and say, “Yes, there are times that challenges to the United States of American require a collective response rather than the rugged individualism alone because the rugged individualism is not going to do it.” If we’re prepared to do things only for ideological reasons or whatever else it may be, we’re going to suffer for it.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Jon.

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Ask Jon 5 – Darkness Trumped by a (Lit) Candle

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/05/26

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New York. Here we talk about science, Trump, Fauci, and anti-intellectualism.

*Interview conducted on March 23, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, there has been a lot of things going on around Covid-19. In the United States, it is having rapidly increasing numbers as we are going after the expansion of the curve. It is March 23rd, at the date of recording. While I looked at the statistics yesterday, New York is, probably, half of the numbers in the United States.

So, it will be the first to, probably, cap out of all states in the United States. From a secular humanist perspective, what are some of the issues that are concerns that you have been having through this entire process in the United States?

Jonathan Engel: It is interesting because what I am hearing or what I am seeing. I live in New York City, which I may call ground zero for the epidemic here. I mean, it is not surprising we have so many. We have lived so much on top of each other. That is not surprising. The mayor of New York City is Bill de Blasio and the governor is Andrew Cuomo.

I mean they are okay. They are not, maybe, my favorite politicians, but they are alright. They have handled this in the way it needs to be handled. In a sense that, they are viewing this as a public health emergency, and they are taking the steps, whatever steps they can take, on a local level to try to stem the tide of the virus.

I have been pretty much inside my apartment. Last time I left, it was Friday. I do not plan on leaving again until I need to and “need” means I am out of food or whatever it is.

Fortunately, I get the New York Times online. With Trump, we all know. We’ve known for a long time that his only concern is himself. He’s afraid that the economy will plummet. Yes, there’s good reason of being afraid about the economy.

I mean, nobody wants a depression or recession, no less than depression. There are good reasons to be concerned about it, but the number one issue must be keeping people alive. He does not seem him to be concerned about that at all. He sees that as, “This is making me look bad.” We do not care about how you look. We care about the lives of our friends, families, and fellow Americans and not to mention everyone around the world.

At least, I do. That, again, is a sort of a secular humanist way of looking at things because one of the principles of secular humanism is that every human being in the planet matters and has a right to a decent life. So, I am concerned as a secular humanist about people getting sick and dying. Trump is most certainly not a secular humanist.

He would only be qualified as a humanist if he is the only person left behind because the only person he cares about is himself. He is using that to scare people. To get people above the economy and to contradict the scientists. That is something that is remarkably interesting because the scientists are the ones who bring the scientific method to a problem such as this and they know.

They look at the facts. They look at the research. They do the research themselves. They will go with the research. Whereas you have a lot of people in this country, especially, on the right – certainly, none of them are secular humanists, who believe in their dogma. They believe in certain things. I will give you an example. The United States has a law that was enacted during the Korean War.

A law that says that the president has the authority to get the United States manufacturing sector working towards alleviating a national emergency as opposed to what they already do. An example of that, this is before the law was passed so this was voluntary, but in 1940, a year and a half before the United States ended World War 2; FDR was negotiating with the car manufacturers in Detroit. He got them to stop making cars and start making tanks and war planes and that’s what this law is all about.

It’s like going to a dress manufacturer and saying, “Look, we need you to manufacture gowns and masks, right now, and the government will compensate you for whatever loss you have eventually. But right now, we need you to stop making dresses and start making gowns and masks.” That is the law, but Trump will not use that law.

I mean, he has sort of said something about it. But he has not actually used it. The reason why is because of conservative dogma is that, “Government is bad,” and the free market rules everything and let the free market manufacture the gowns. Now, the researchers telling us there are not enough gowns, there are not enough masks, what they call PPE, Personal Protective Equipment.

It is getting bad down in the trenches, in all hospitals and clinics, but he will not use that because the right-wing dogma is “Government is bad.” Government should never tell industry what to do despite the nature of this emergency. So, as a secular humanist, I am looking at it from the science and what is out there.

We have people running our country, unfortunately, not a state or city but the country, who believe that, “No, my underlying beliefs are always right, and I don’t care what the evidence shows. I do not care what I am seeing before my eyes. I believe what I believe.”

Jacobsen: How long until maybe 40% to 80%, as per one of the news reportages of New York, gets an infection?

Engel: I do not know exactly, but I know that I am taking this seriously and my family is taking this seriously. But I do not know how long it will be. It is terrifying. Especially, since one of the things that Dr. Fauci said early on that our health care system, such as it is, that you can’t even call it a system. It is not geared towards this kind of emergency. The reason it’s not geared is that it’s all in private hands even when it’s non-profit. It’s still in private hands.

If you are running a private business, for profit or nonprofit, you are gonna look at this situation and say, “I have to keep my fill.” So, I am not gonna increase my capacity, so that I can handle an emergency because most of the time that increase capacity will be empty and that is a bad business model. So, we are in that situation where I know here in New York City, the hospitals are overwhelmed.

Hospitals are simply overwhelmed. That’s, obviously, a huge problem. It will be as bad or worse in rural areas because in rural areas, a lot of hospitals have been closing for number of years because one thing is in states that did not accept the Affordable Care Act’s Medicaid Expansion; hospitals are going under. They view them not as public necessities, but, rather, another business.

So, when they do not have enough business, paying business, people who can afford to pay, who have insurance, they go under. What’s gonna happen to rural communities when their hospitals are gone? It’s frightening and right now, it seems so much so that we’re in a battle between the scientists and the medical health professionals and Trump and his minions. There are still people in the United States who believe that this is some sort of liberal plot designed to get Trump out of office.

“Oh, if we pretend that there’s a big health emergency, it’ll hurt the economy, and then Trump will lose the election.” So, they think that this is somehow being made up by the liberal media. Those people need to shut themselves into their houses and shut up, but that’s where the fault line is between people who believe in science like secular humanists or a few religious people who, obviously, believe in science, too, compared to the people who believe, “This is dogma. This is what I believe. This is what I think and that’s it.”

If science does not win here, we are in the even worse trouble than we think, but I will tell you something else. Me, personally, I am following the scientists. I am following what Dr. Fauci is going to say. It’s Trump. People are wondering about in a week. If he says, “Okay, everybody, go back outside. Go back to work. Go back to school.” I ain’t going. I am not going to listen to him. I am not going to risk my life. I do not want to risk anybody else’s life either. I am going to follow the science and, hopefully, a lot of people in this country will. But when will it be solved? I do not know.

Jacobsen: How is this being handled by the individual who is put in charge of it by the current president, Vice President Mike Pence?

Engel: Well, Pence is an empty suit. You know what I mean? [Laughing] People on the coronavirus task force that Pence is running. They are scientists. They know. Dr. Fauci knows, but Trump is such a damaged person, such a defective individual. The scientists sit around and talk about, “What could we say that will get the truth out to the public but so he won’t fire all of us?” It is an exceptionally fine line. Fauci has talked about that himself, sometimes.

By the way, the scientists who are on the committee have been trying to tell Pence to tell Trump that he should not be in these hearings; these daily press conferences. He should not be there, but he does not have his rallies because his rallies have been cancelled. He must be in front of everything, so he is there. He stands up there saying things that are clearly not the case and are dangerous for people’s belief, and then Fauci gets up there on a nice edge, tries to say, “I gotta make sure that the public gets the truth, but I gotta try it in such a way that doesn’t make this man child angry.” Otherwise, he will shut down the whole thing.

There will not be any scientists up there talking to the people and it is an exceedingly difficult thing for them to try to handle. Most of them, they get up there and say, “Oh, how do you deal with Trump?” “Oh, you have to praise him. You must praise him.” You have to say, “Oh, the president is doing such a wonderful job,” and then turn around and tell the truth.

It’s not easy for them and a lot of people, including me, are worried that Trump is – if he keeps hearing things from Fauci that aren’t anything other than, “Yes, what the president said was 100% true and isn’t he a tremendous leader?” Then Trump will fire Fauci. This guy is a guy who worked on the AIDS epidemic, Ebola, and H1N1.

I mean, this guy is, when it comes to infections, the leading public health authority in the United States. We’re sitting here terrified that when the country needs him. I mean, the man is 79 years old, he can be sitting back in retirement, and say, “Let somebody else do it,” but when the country needs him. He’s willing to come forward and to work and to help the country get through this terrible crisis. He might get fired.

Which is, absolutely, one of the most extraordinary things you could imagine. If I want to hear the truth, I do not care. That’s what I want to hear. So, as far as I’m concerned, again, living in New York City, the governor of the state in New York, Andrew Cuomo, my opinion of him, in general, is up and down. But when it comes to this, he’s doing a good job of talking to the people and telling them the truth about how bad it is and what we need to do and also being a little bit inspiring.

I bought a new book about Winston Churchill by Erik Larson. The name of it, I cannot remember. I am about to start it. It is about Winston Churchill in World War II and how much his communication to the people of England meant. He did not lie to them. He did not say, “Oh, the Nazis will be gone in a couple of weeks, don’t worry about it.” He told the truth, but he also inspired people to keep going. Cuomo is giving us a little of this. But from the president, you are not getting anything like that at all.

Jacobsen: What has been a conversation among New Yorkers about some of the reportage around individuals of infamy in jail getting coronavirus?

Engel: Purely capitalist society, now, I’m a capitalist in a sense that I don’t think government ownership of all business works well and that planning from the top works well, but I think that the capitalism needs to be tempered with the pubic good because you can talk about, “Oh, we want this company to do some public good.”

Kind of like, “Don’t expect them to do some public good because they won’t.” So, you gotta keep an eye on them. You gotta regulate them. You gotta make sure that the public good, at least, comes in to play. Even though, it is not the primary motivating factor. The reason I am talking about stuff like this is because the people who are the least among us have only suffered the most in tragedies like this, which is wrong.

Talking about people who have the least, people in prison, have the least. I have heard a lot of talk about, “Geez, what can we do about that?” But I have not heard quite much in the way of answers. They’re not the top priority, which is, again, an anti-humanist way of looking at things. A humanist would say, “Well, they’re human beings. Human beings are important.”

Yes, I have heard that they are worried about outbreaks. Think about it, people living on top of each other. I mean, some people are worried about that. In a way, it is the same kind of things with the nursing homes and senior living places. My 96-year old mother lives in a senior living place. She is locked down in her room.

They locked the whole place down. Not only can I not go visit her, but she cannot even go out anymore. She cannot go to the dining room and have dinner there. They bring the food to her. She cannot go out even to take a walk around the hallways. That is, probably, the way it should be. But is anybody doing that in the prison setting? I hate to say this, but as a society; I do not think we care enough about those people to be intervening.

It does not look that way. Hopefully, at least, here in New York City, that will change, but that is a frightening thing. Imagine yourself being and knowing that this disease is around, it is like, “Well, that’s the way it goes.” Time for breakfast and everybody in the prison marches into the same huge table room and it is like, “Well, that’s the way it is.”

My mother, at least, there is some caring in the sense, “Okay, we’re going to bring your meals to you.” But in prison, it seems that we do not, in many ways, care enough about people who have broken the law. Yes, they have broken the law and many of them belong in prison. Not all of them, in my view, but many of them belong in prison, but that does not mean that they should be thrown away. At least, I do not think so. I do not think any humanist thinks so.

We know that in a purely capitalist society that it does not have the same sensibility. People are going to be deemed disposable. That goes against anything humanism believes, but, unfortunately, that is kind of the way it is now. Sometimes, I have been keeping my eye on that, but I have not seen any measures put in place to protect people who are in prison.

Not to mention, the prison’s staff; I mean, if you cannot get enough humanity to care about offenders, at least, care about the staff. There still must be guards and medical personnel, clerical personnel, all the rest of that stuff in the prisons. At least, care enough about that. I do not know what exactly is being done. I hope that it is going to be something that will help stop the spread in prison and, basically, everywhere else too.

Jacobsen: Are some of these statements around the treatment of prisoners, around the lack of respect for scientific knowledge and expertise, as per the Fauci example, indicative of significant portions of American culture encouraging, if not, being anti-humanist?

Engel: I think so. I mean, I have not seen research on that, so I would say I am talking about my own opinions forged by my own experiences, but, yes, I think so. They call it the cultural wars here in the States. It tends to be a little bit crazy. “There are people who talk about expertise and science. They think they know better than I do.”

Several years ago, when Jon Stewart was still doing The Daily Show, he had a segment on hearings that were held in Congress, where Republicans invited these people to come up and talk about education. They advised people, “I know better than teachers who went on teaching school. Who knows better what my children should be learning than I do?” And Jon Stewart then, in that clip, said, “We might as well be having hearings bringing in people saying, ‘I know better than airline pilots how to transport my family to the air.’”

Jacobsen: [Laughing]

Engel: For expertise, “Oh, those liberal colleges where you learn this, you learn that, you don’t learn about God. Your religious kids, send them to college, and then they find out that the Earth is 4.6 billion years old, not thousands of years old. How can they teach them that stuff that contradicts me?” There’s anti-intellectual, anti-thinking about something, in this country. It is impacting on this disease.

No question about it. I saw pictures last week from Wednesday of last week of these idiots in Florida on spring break. Hundreds and hundreds of young people doing what they usually do on spring break. I am looking at that saying, “This is insane.” But I think part of that comes from people.

They are a bunch of liberals. Things like that. As far as the science, President Trump is there telling me that it is okay to do this, it is okay to do that or that anybody who wants to get tested can get tested. I am not going to follow the science. I do not listen to that and whatever they hear that this is a liberal thought.

Up until about a week and a half ago, Fox News especially, the people who say, ‘This is a plot by Democrats to take down Trump. That is what it is. Hundreds of people were dying every day in Italy. What are you? You do not believe that? You do not think that is true? That is not happening. All the pictures that we are seeing on the news. They are all made up. It is manufactured. We never landed on the moon.’

It is incredible that there is this vent. I read a book a while ago called Idiot America. He was saying that the United States has always been a great place for crackpots because we have freedom of speech, etc. He said, ‘We used to laugh at crackpots. Now, we send them to the Congress.’

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Engel: He is right. I mean, we have a senator from Oklahoma, which is where my older brother lives. He always roll his eyes at his own senators.

Jacobsen: Oh, is this the “Snowball and, therefore, no climate change guy?” Oh my gosh.

Engel: Snowball. It was a cold day in Washington. I thought of climbing up at him, “Hey, idiot, it’s hot somewhere in the world today, you know? It’s global warming, not Washington D.C. warming” [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Engel: We can laugh at it. We should because I do think the humor is so important to get through anything. We can laugh at it, but it is serious. This is part of that anti-science, anti-intellectual strain in this country that a United States senator can do that.

But he is a United States senator. He will not follow the science. You saw that right there. I mean, it is on climate change. On a lot of things, I think the future depends on climate change. Before this virus came around, climate change, the future depends on our ability to convince people to follow the science, and not superstitions and gut feelings and things. Mainly, Trump has said it several times, ‘I have a feeling, I don’t know. It’s what I think,’ but ‘I think’ as opposed to some guy who’s been studying it all his life.

Yes, that is a real danger in this country for many of these things. Of course, it is the virus right now. Thinking that, “What I believe is what’s true,” as opposed to, “This is what the science shows, and if it shows something antithetical to what I believe, then I guess what I believe was wrong.” Think about that, to try to even get a religious person to say, “Here’s the evidence, so I guess what I believe was wrong.”

But I feel that myself in my own life, there are times when the evidence shows this. I thought it was something else. I say, “Well, I guess I was wrong.” It is not the worst thing in the world to think that you were wrong. In fact, it is a sign of a healthy mind to believe that you were wrong about something about whatever. It is a sign of a mind that can learn.

It is the ability to adapt and to learn. Part of that comes from the amazingly simple ability to say, “I used to think that, but now that I’ve seen more evidence. I know that I was wrong then.” It does not mean that you are a stupid person, in fact, quite the opposite. It means you are a smart person because it means you can learn and take in information, data, and conclude based on that data.

That is a good thing. That is not a bad thing. On the last debate, I saw between Bernie Sanders and Joe Biden. They spent a lot of time attacking each other on votes that were taken. These are all guys, like 20-30 years ago.

“Yeah, I made that vote. It was wrong, I was wrong. I’ve seen evidence since then and it shows that I was wrong. Now, I’ve changed my mind.” People think, “Oh you’re a flip-flopper,” when they should be thinking, “Oh, you’re an intelligent person who learns things.” It’s so much of it here. It is about dogma. It’s about what I believe as opposed to, “It’s okay to believe things. But hey, if somebody shows me that I’m wrong, I’m going to change it.”

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Jon.

Engel: Okay. Thank you, Scott. Stay healthy, my friend. Wash your hands.

Jacobsen: On it [Laughing].

Engel: Okay.

Jacobsen: Take care.

Engel: Take care. Take it easy. Ba-bye.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Jon 4 – “You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children”

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/05/22

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New YorkNew Yorkers are great conversationalists. Here we talk about prayer in the time of coronavirus.

*Interview conducted on March 16, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: This one is a little more time stamped. So, it is March 16th. The reason for the time stamp is because of Covid-19 or SARS-CoV-2. We are going to see a rapid trajectory around the world as we are, especially in the United States, with the level of mitigation. So, you wanted to talk about the inefficacy of prayer against Covid-19. So, what are some of your thoughts along these lines? Give some examples.

Jonathan Engel: I am not sure. It is an interesting question about, whether anybody is going to learn anything from this, but we will get there in a minute. One of the first mass type gatherings, where it was reported in the United States that people were contracting the virus was the CPAC Convention. That is the Conservative Political Action Committee Convention where they are all religious. They are virtually all Christians, not all, but virtually all Christians. They are all religious and this is where it hit, at CPAC. So, you wonder, “Well, why didn’t God protect CPAC?”

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Engel: These are God fearing people. A few members of Congress including Senator Ted Cruz. Representative Mark Meadows who is now going to be the Chief of Staff in the White House. Representative Ted Collins, they have self-quarantined themselves after CPAC. They are doing the responsible thing; I do wonder why they do not simply pray the virus away. I would love for them to be able to do that. If they do, I will say, “I was wrong.” But it does not seem to be happening. Although, one person should be singled out, specially; Representative Matt Gates from Florida, big Trump supporter. When the news of the coronavirus first started coming out, he thought he would mock people who were nervous about this by going on to the floor of Congress with one of those big gas masks [Laughing]. See? I am joking about this. But he is now self-quarantining after being at CPAC. It is not something that looks so funny now. These people are all true believers and so it makes you wonder. Their own well-being is at stake. Suddenly, they are following the science. It is a good thing, but it also makes you wonder, “How much did you believe?” Which brings me to the Bethel Church in Redding, California, it is a mega church with over 6,000 members. Bethel Church followers believe that prayer can heal the sick and raise the dead. I am not sure I believe that, but okay.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Engel: So, members of the church go to local hospitals, pray for patients’ recoveries. That is a shame. They are people minded, community minded. They want to help people. They spend time doing something that is not going to help anybody. They have now suspended this practice. They are not going to the hospitals anymore. I am glad that they are not because they should not be. But I must wonder, “Why?” If they honestly believe that God heals people from whom prayers are said, why are they afraid of this coronavirus? I mean, they should be afraid of it. The reason is because God does not heal people. There is no God and what heals people are either naturally recoveries or it is a medical intervention. So, it makes you wonder. Now, I know there are some true believers. People who attend some church in Indiana saying, “We are all going to show up and we’re all gonna be here because Jesus will protect us.” It is something. Good luck with that. I do not think I am going, but alright. There are some true believers, but there seems to be a lot of people who talk about it. They talk, but they don’t necessarily mean it. I have always wondered about that. How many of the people, who are saying that they are believers who say, “Of course, prayer cures people,” believe that? Now, it is coming to show. We are seeing that, at least, some of them don’t. I am not sure. Is that a good thing? Because they do kind of believe in science and not in superstitions. Or is that a bad thing because it shows you what hypocrites they are? I am not sure I know the answer to that.

Jacobsen: Do you remember the George Carlin line about prayer? If God has a divine plan, and if you’re a rundown shmuck with a two-dollar prayer book, trying to come around and fuck up his plan, then don’t pray in the first place because it’s part of the divine plan.

Engel: [Laughing].

Jacobsen: God will do what he wants to, anyway, and so your prayer will be wanting to intervene in that divine plan. So, A, it is arrogant and B, people often say, “Well, that’s God’s will. Thy will be done.” In other words, God is going to do what he wants to do. He has this divine plan. Therefore, why bother praying in the first place?

Engel: That is right. It is gonna happen, anyway, whatever it is that his plan is. It is going to happen. Now, that you mentioned it. I remember that it was when Carlin talks about somebody in a driveway and hit the kid accidentally and the kid dies and people say, “Well, it’s God’s will. He envisions the town’s people taking up pitchforks and torches,” and saying, “God’s will? God did this? Go get that God guy.”

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Engel: It is an interesting phenomenon that does not have any logical explanation or logical endpoint because logic is not what they are all about, reason and logic, but boy, we need it now more than ever. I mean, we are in a medical emergency.

Jacobsen: In a pandemic emergency.

Engel: Yes, a pandemic emergency. We need reason and logic. Again, it’s a good thing. I suppose to some people who say they believe that they can pray this whole thing away or who actually are taking steps to make sure that they stay healthy. Real steps, but, it also points out the hypocrisy. Also, you got some people who are going to believe that God is going to help them. This is one of the things I thought was funny. In France, the town called Lourdes where people go to pray for miracles or medical miracles, go there. If you are sick, God can heal you. They closed it down to all visitors. Now, that make sense from a medical point of view, but from a religious point of view; it does not make any sense at all. It is a place that heals and must close because people get sick? Unless, of course, you believe that, maybe, it doesn’t heal anybody. Maybe, that water from Lourdes, or whatever it is, doesn’t work. It’s an interesting phenomenon. I would hope that it would force people to maybe question their supernatural and superstitious beliefs to say, “Look, I didn’t rely on praying, but, maybe, that’s not a safe thing to rely on.” But I will not hold my breath. Because the human capacity for hypocrisy seems to be endless so, I am not going to hold my breath. But maybe, a couple of people will realize that this type of thing does not work. It does not mean anything. From now on, I am going to follow the science instead of the superstitions. But again, I am not that hopeful, but, maybe, at least a few people.

Jacobsen: What do you make of the, let’s say, strong reactions many individuals within, not all, but certainly several, dominant religious communities have to critical and, sometimes, harsh humor about things they think work but do not in any empirical sense? So, those who pray, think it is efficacious. If they go to Bethel Church, they think it raises the dead. If a secular humanist from New York comes along and asks a critical question, “Does this work?”, or maybe changes the tone like, “Does this work?” It is meant as a joke. What do you make of the sometimes-aggressive reactions, even bullying reactions, in response to that? Because it almost seems like a ‘tell’ in poker language, as to a not-insignificant proportion of believers in the efficacy of intercessory prayer that it does not work, but they still want to believe. In Daniel Dennett’s terms, it is that, “They believe in belief,” in intercessory prayer.

Engel: Yes. I mean, there was a line from Golda Meir, the Prime Minister of Israel, when asked whether she believes in God, she replied, “Well, I believe in the Jewish people and the Jewish people believe in God.”

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Engle: Okay, thank you for that straight answer. [Laughing] I see you were a Prime Minister; I did not know that you were a tap dancer as well.

Jacobsen: That is a secularist with like a Phantom of the Opera half mask on. They are tap dancing around that one for sure.

Engel: Again, going back to what we were talking about earlier, about the people believe because of the idea of blasphemy etc., “Oh, you are saying bad things about my religion. Then you are out of bounds.” If you believe, what do you care what I think? What do you care what I say? You know the truth. I mean, I do not care what you say. You can say what you want about atheists. It does not bother me if you leave me alone. As long as you don’t physically attack me or something, but my asking the questions causes you so much upset, maybe, you want to look in the mirror and say, “Do I believe this?” Because I do think that my asking the questions would not bother you if you were at ease with your beliefs. When my asking the question or the fact that a non-belief bothers you that much, I think it tells me that you are shaky on your own beliefs. So, instead of getting mad at me for making me question your beliefs, go into it. Look in the mirror. Go into it. Question your own beliefs. See what answers will come out, but that is not a bad thing. That is a good thing.

Jacobsen: When you take the world at face value as a religious one as many North Americans do, they believe in a cosmic battle. They believe there is a God and a fallen angel who departed from God by choice and was cast out of heaven. So, in their mind, an ongoing battle between the forces of good and the forces of evil, and the forces of good are of God and the forces of evil are of the devil or Satan or Beelzebub.  So, to someone who affirms non-belief or have a rejection of their God, but in a context in which they only think of their God, you will become a force of evil in the world by your mere existence. So, you are a negative aspect of existence or rejection of God incarnate by choice because you are using the free will, freedom of the will, given by God’s grace. You have made a free choice to reject this wonderful gift that God has given you. So, there is a story and narrative, a theological backing, to what I deem legitimate feelings. I do not think they are valid in terms of the content, but they are feeling those feelings towards you as a non-believer.

Engel: I would respond to that if I were having a real conversation. Listen, I do not blow my horn too much or at all, but let us look at that hypothetically. What if hypothetically, you looked at me and you looked at the kind of person I am, and the kind of life I lead and decided, “He does good things. He does not hurt people. He is charitable. He tries to help people.” You look at that. I mean, I worked at a non-profit sector. I help get housing built for homeless, mentally ill people. So, I think I can pretty much say – Perfect? Of course, nobody is. Close to perfect? No, it is not there either, but I think it is not exulting myself to say, “Oh, I’m a good guy.” So, you look at that and say, “Well, if I am a source of evil, has it come out that my actions are for the most part, good?

Jacobsen: Basically, not all, there will be a strong contingent of the belief community. This is based on reading and hearing and talking with people, to kind of hear them out, get their views. From their view, you can do good, but you still rejected the sacrifice of the cross. So, to them, even though you could do all this good, you are still bound for eternal damnation.

Engel: [Laughing].

Jacobsen: So, from that point of view, you are still, in spite of potentially being used by God for whatever good you are doing, an enemy that should be treated with a certain level of caution, if not suspicion, at any deviation from the good. That which comes directly from God by his nature, using their language, you will then, potentially, need an aggressive countering in some capacity.

I think this is where we then get cases of individual stories that you and I have heard of individuals having trouble getting employment, having trouble getting bound into a religious community because it is a highly religious community in a fundamentalist sense.

Engel: Right.

Jacobsen: So, these beliefs, once integrated, though not connected in any empirical sense but only to a set of kind of ideas and premises, then lead to behavioral consequences. That is where I think we hear the stories of, not terrible but, certainly bad treatment of many non-believers in North America, especially in places like in the United States. I mean, it comes up in South Carolina before. The inability of atheists to run for public office and countless other number of states as well.

Engel: I think that is certainly true. Although, hopefully, things are beginning to change a little. I think I mentioned in a previous call that there is now a Congregational Free Thought Caucus in the United States Congress. It is getting a little bit more open. The rise of presidents for democratic participation has been interesting because I do not think Bernie Sanders is religious at all, but he will not come out and say that he is not religious. Maybe, he is not making that part of his campaign.

Jacobsen: Maybe, he does not believe in God, but the Jewish people believe in God and he believes in the Jewish people.

Engel: There you go. [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Engel: That is one of my favorites. That is tap dancing in full speed.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Engel: It is frustrating to me a little bit.

Jacobsen: Yes.

Engel: Yes, there are all those communities that would look at me and skeptically, because I am not a believer and it is like, “Boy, we have so many other things in common.” As Richard Dawkins said, when he talks about something like that, “Look, we’re talking to a believer. We’re both atheists when it comes to almost every God that is worshiped or has been worshiped in the history of the world.” I take my idea of one God one step further, right? I mean, if you believe, and believe that somehow I am an agent of evil and something like that, without knowing me, without seeing what kinda person I am, etc., I can simply point to the larger number of people dying in the world since the beginning of human history. It is not in my view, obviously, a positive thing. It is letting your superstitions get behind you. It is one of the things that you think about, too, in terms of how it is so much harder to hate people that you know. So again, I think that’s comparable to the gay liberation movement, where once people started coming out of the closet and more people got to know someone who is gay or got to know that someone they knew, they like, turns out was gay that they never knew. I think that can sort of change attitudes. So, I would hope that people who are Christian or religious, before they would condemn me, would, hopefully, get to know me a little bit. Suddenly, if they thought, “Okay, he’s a pretty good guy.” Maybe, it is possible that someone who does not believe can be a good guy, can be a good person. If we are going to turn that into their heads and creating that kind of positive distance, I think it is a step in the right direction. I mean, it is so silly when you think about it. What is the difference between me and someone who is a believer? We could believe in also some things that are the same. We have a disagreement. To me, it is not that big of a deal. But, of course, that is to me and a lot of religious people it is. I think religion needs to be open about who we are, etc., and hopefully, that can change a few minds. That can change a few people. It is not easy. I mean, there is still a little stick in the throat when I say, “I am an atheist.” What I usually say, “I don’t believe in Gods.” We will try to always make it plural or I say, “I don’t believe in the supernatural.” Then they ask me if I believe in God.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Engel: I’ve had that happen to me. But they ask if I believe in God. I say, “I don’t believe in anything supernatural.” They want to be modern people. Yet, they have this ancient belief. Hopefully, that will someday allow them to break free from the superstition. We can only hope.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Jon.

Engel: Okay. Thank you, Scott. Take care now and wash your hands.

Jacobsen: Oh, yeah. 

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Mandisa 57 – Early Comments on Covfefe-19 Mismanagement

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/05/18

Mandisa Thomas, a native of New York City, is the founder and President of Black Nonbelievers, Inc. Although never formally indoctrinated into belief, Mandisa was heavily exposed to Christianity, Black Nationalism, and Islam. As a child she loved reading, and enjoyed various tales of Gods from different cultures, including Greek and Ghanaian. “Through reading these stories and being taught about other cultures at an early age, I quickly noticed that there were similarities and differences between those deities and the God of the Christian Bible. I couldn’t help but wonder what made this God so special that he warrants such prevalence today,” she recalls.

Mandisa has many media appearances to her credit, including CBS Sunday MorningCNN.com, and Playboy, The Humanist, and JET magazines. She has been a guest on podcasts such as The Humanist Hour and Ask an Atheist, as well as the documentaries Contradiction and My Week in Atheism. Mandisa currently serves on the Board for American Atheists and the American Humanist Association, and previously for Foundation Beyond Belief, the 2016 Reason Rally Coalition, and the Secular Coalition for America. She is also an active speaker and has presented at conferences/conventions for the Freedom from Religion Foundation, Secular Student Alliance, and many others.

In 2019, Mandisa was the recipient of the Secular Student Alliance’s Backbone Award and named the Freedom from Religion Foundation’s Freethought Heroine. She was also the Unitarian Universalist Humanist Association’s Person of the Year 2018.

As the president of Black Nonbelievers, Inc., Mandisa encourages more Blacks to come out and stand strong with their nonbelief in the face of such strong religious overtones.

“The more we make our presence known, the better our chances of working together to turn around some of the disparities we face. We are NOT alone.”

Here, we talk about managing chaos with a pandemic example.

*This was conducted near the start of the pandemic.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, we are beginning to see an uptick in some of these cases of the virus, COVID-19. At the same time, we are seeing a number of inadequate actions as well as leadership in terms of speech. How can or should, in these kinds of cases, leadership improve? How can some of the secular communities voice their own concerns around somebody’s issues because this will be something impacting all communities in the United States?

Mandisa: We are indeed seeing a rise in the number of COVID-19 cases in the United States. Which is due in part to our current presidential administration’s failure to communicate how infectious this disease could be, and enact safety measures within a time period where it could’ve been controlled more effectively. It is alarming that this pandemic wasn’t taken as seriously as it should have been, because many thought that it was something that only affected other countries. Now, we’re seeing an enormous rise of cases in the United States, which has chaos, and has also resulted in unnecessary deaths. In any situation of this magnitude, even if people fear what is to come, the best thing to do is to be honest about the circumstances, and what we can do to help. In all fairness, early on, there was still very little information about this virus and how to try and contain it. But as that changed and more became available, then it should have been shared, and safety measures put in place as soon as possible. Many companies/organizations have cancelled or postponed their spring 2020 events. American Atheists, for example, made the decision to postpone their national convention that takes place Easter weekend until 2021. Even though I personally was apprehensive about this (and dare I say disappointed), I understood the need to do so. And now we’re seeing that there are a number of major events that are being cancelled or postponed in the meantime, it shows the level of forward-thinking on their behalf. The risk that having large in-person gatherings is too great right now. And as always, I think establishing open communication, answering as many questions possible, and pointing people to the most valid sources for information and actions will be crucial in turning this thing around.

Jacobsen: What about boundaries? You had some comments there as well.

Mandisa: Yes, so with the COVID-19 virus, it is now mandatory for people to establish necessary boundaries with others because of its respiratory and airborne nature. Large in-person gatherings are now prohibited (no more than 10 ppl at a time) until this can be controlled. Also the 6-foot rule, and wearing masks and gloves when going outside, has been advised. To enter certain premises, it is now required. We need to make sure that we are protecting ourselves and others – especially if we are sick. And not just with COVID-19; there are still other illnesses that we need to be concerned with. Oftentimes, we do not think about how we affect other people when in the general public, so now there must be some limits imposed. This isn’t just about ourselves, it’s for the well being of our loved ones, and the general public. It’s important now that we do this in order to reduce the spread of the virus. Most states have enacted mandatory stay at home orders, with the exception of essential needs and outdoor activities (within reason), which I think everyone should be complying with accordingly.

This is a good lesson for us in general, for thinking about and improving how we engage each other, especially during times like this. What measures we should take to protect ourselves and those around us. It starts with good communication and boundaries, and I am convinced that they will really help in containing this illness and our overall health.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and the PSA, Mandisa.

Mandisa: Thank you.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Jon 3 – William Barr and Gender Equality: Smoke from Fire and Ice

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/05/16

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New YorkHere we talk about William Barr more, and gender equality.

*Interview conducted on March 2, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: We are back with another session of Ask Jon without an “h.” Two prominent Johns I know from New York. One has an “h,” and one does not, in their name. So, you have some family background in some legal struggles. I think we kind of touched on some of those in some earlier interviews, but in this series, we are going to be going down that path. Before we do, you wanted to focus on some of the statements by a man named, William Barr. So, my first question is to kind of set a preference for that. Following as a primer from the last session, who is he?

Jonathan Engel: William Barr is the Attorney General of the United States. That makes him the chief legal officer in the United States, presiding over the United States’ Department of Justice. He was the Attorney General in the end of the George H. W. Bush administration. After Trump decided that Jeff Sessions was not enough of a part of a loyalist for him, he decided to bring in Will Barr as his attorney general (Jeff Sessions).

Now, a lot of people thought, Will Barr, he is a kind of what they call an institutionalist. So, he will defend the institution against Trump. He has not defended the institution’s Department of Justice against Trump, in fact. But one of the things that I can say this much; I followed Barr’s congressional hearing on his appointments, etc.

I never knew that he was a real religious fanatic, an extreme Catholic. It is said, I don’t know if it is true that he is a member of it. The reason that we don’t know if that’s true is that it’s a secret organization of right-wing institutionalist Catholics. People who want to turn back the Vatican to people who want to make sure that math is given only in Latin and not in English because having it in English; people might actually understand it.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Engel: He’s religiously oriented. Lately, he’s made several speeches, like the most well-known, was last year at Notre Dame University, in which he went after the idea of a secular person or a secular country, etc., of secularism, in general. It was the old, “We can’t have morality if we don’t have religion.” Talking about things like that, social dysfunction in this country.

Things like drug abuse, violence, and things like that, are a result of an increase in the secularism of the people and of the government. Arguing against it in any kind of way including looking at the constitution of the United States and founding fathers and what they thought of religion and government should be in this country, but also another thing, “Is he, right?”

I mean, he does not cite any research or any hard data on his views. So, the question is what there is, but there is research and some hard data out there. The question is, “Does it show he is right, or does it show that he is wrong?” I think, basically, that is wrong. I can go through a few things here.

First of all, it shows that in the United States, which is what he was basically talking about. The worst quality of life tends to be among the most God-fearing or God-loving, or the most religious, states like Mississippi and Alabama. While most states with the best quality of life tend to be among the least religious states like Vermont and New Hampshire, you can go to the Pew Forums of Religious Landscape Survey. They will show you that the correlation is clear.

The more secular tend to better than the more religious on a vast host of measures including homicide and violent crime rates, poverty rates, obesity and diabetes rates, child abuse rates, educational attainment levels, income levels, unemployment rates, rape and sexually transmitted diseases, teen pregnancy, etc.

On almost every sociological measure, you are most likely to find that the most secular states with the lowest levels of belief and the lowest rates of church attendance; they’re the best. The most religious states with the highest levels of belief and rates of church attendance; they’re the worst.

So, when we look at the actual statistics, when we look at the research, it shows that the states in the United States, regardless of what Attorney General Barr says, that have the lowest level of religion tend to be the states that have the highest level of social commitment and positive societal outreach.

Jacobsen: Do you think this matches international statistics as well when you go nation by nation and then you rank all of them among similar metrics of wellbeing?

Engel: Yes, I do. But not just because I am thinking, but also because, again, that is what the statistics show. If you look at the 10 countries with the highest percentage of religious people, which are countries like Columbia, Jamaica, El Salvador, Yemen, Pakistan, Philippines, you look at the 10 countries with the lowest with countries like Scandinavian countries, Japan, Australia, etc.

In the 10 countries with the lowest level of religious participation, the homicide rate is 5 times lower, life expectancy is 25% higher, infant mortality is a thousand percent lower. Not to mention the fact, that gender inequality is 400% lower, so you see that when we’re looking at these countries that are non-religious countries, they tend to have better social outcomes; now, they also tend to be richer.

So, that may be part of the reason why they have better social outcomes, but I do not know. Correlation and causation are not necessarily the same thing. I do not know if the countries that are poorer if religion is a factor in that. It may be; it may not be. I do not want to say if I do not know, but I do know that countries with the lowest levels of religious participation tend to have better social outcomes.

Jacobsen: What do you make of the one metric mentioned around gender equality? Places like Iceland are the most gender-equal in the world. They still have many individuals who self-identify as religious with the state religion; however, they have a lot of metrics around gender equality. They have Siðmennt (Icelandic Ethical Humanist Association), which is the ethical and humanist organization there – which is doing good work.

I met some of the lead executives of that organization in May, June of 2019. So, if we’re looking at the countries that are most gender-equal like Iceland and many Western-European countries, can this treatment of women as full participants in society and as full human beings help with equal rights to men? Can women’s equality be considered a core metric, probably the most important metric, when looking at the wellbeing and health of societies? Those societies where these rights are the strongest, then you have the most secular-leaning and the free thought values truly inculcated.

Engel: Absolutely. The treatment of women around the world is a key factor in social development. I mean, think about it, you have countries in the world, many of them religious, where girls do not go to school and they don’t get advanced degrees and they don’t participate in the work force, etc.

When you have that, you are taking 50% of your brainpower, 50% of your initiative and just throwing it away and saying, “We’ll just operate on 50% brain capacity because the brains of women are not gonna be used in order to benefit in society. Things like inventions by women, discoveries by women, women starting new businesses, and things like that. Well, that’s out.”

I think that makes sense that countries who do not treat their women with equality will have lower standards of living and generally speaking, be less wealthy and be less healthy, and less wise, if you want to look at it that way. But I think that’s definitely the case. I think that correlates a lot, again, to religion. There is a lot of religious tradition that says that women are not equal, right?

The Ultra-Orthodox Jewish man, one of his prayers of the day is like, “Thank God that you didn’t make me a woman.” In terms of Christians in the United States who are religious and adhere to the Bible and what it says, etc., there’s a lot of people in this country who still believe that a woman’s place is in the home, the man makes the supervision, the man takes care of the woman.

“So, I will take care of you and in exchange for that, you don’t say anything, you don’t have any opinions, you just let me do all the thinking and you can do all the work.” Again, when that happens, you are taking half of the ability, half of the brain power. What kind of a message does it send to young girls in school who want to grow up to be a doctor, or an engineer, or a scientist or a teacher?

What does it say to her when in her own household, her own mother has to be quiet and just obey whatever the man says? It says to her that your abilities are not valued. You will not be valued to your abilities or intelligence like a man would. If he has the same brain as you, you would be thinking, “Oh, maybe I’ll go to medical school someday.”

But with you, “Oh, she’ll get married, and have children and she’ll do with her husband the same thing that her mother did with her father which is to obey unquestionably.” That could certainly lead to lower social outcomes that we think are important. Again, it just takes out from society; people who can contribute but do not because they do not see the value in their contribution to society based on religious doctrine.

Again, it is not that it is not a contribution to society to have people who are home taking care of kids or whatever it is. Of course, they contribute to society, but you can contribute in many ways and many can contribute in that way too. I have myself.  Although, I do some things for a living, etc., but I work from home.

My wife is out. She is a teacher every day. I’m contributing to our household. I am contributing to her; the kids she teaches are getting a great education. I’m contributing to that because I’m at home taking care of the shopping and the cooking and the laundry and other things as well, but in a traditional religious household. Oh my god, I could never be “I’m a man. I can’t be doing those things. It should be the other way around.” But that’s not what suits me and my wife and you have to do what suits you and what is best for the world.

Jacobsen: When we are looking back then, in the United States situation, how is America leaning away from what we would see as secular humanist values, or at least humanist values, and more towards sort of William Barr’s vision of the world?

Engel: I am not sure where we are. Research shows that the fastest-growing religious denomination in this country when people ask what your religion is “none of the above.” So, I am not sure. I think what is happening is that the deeply religious in this country are now seeing that happening and they are using their power within society to fight it in a louder way, etc.

I think that is what is going on, becoming more religious in terms of each individual person in the United States, but I think the people with the power are using religion like the Orange Menace in the White house using religion in order to further their grasp on power because religion can be a potent concept for a lot of people. “Oh, come with us and we’ll respect your religious traditions and you’ll vote for us.”

I think there’s been a lot of that and, again, I think the people are seeing the rise of secularism among average people. It scares them and angers them. So, they’re trying to push religion even harder. I think you are seeing a more religious aspect in this country from its leaders hopping on it more, etc. I hope I am right, but I do not think necessarily that it means that, in general, American individuals are becoming more religious.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Jon.

Engel: Okay, I just want to add one quick thing here.

Jacobsen: Go ahead.

Engel: There was a picture that went around recently on the news, etc., of the coronavirus task force praying in the White House. Of course, that is a violation of the separation of church and state. I mean, how can you assume that every person wants to pray or wants to pray to the same God or whatever it is? But also, what a useless waste of time and energy. That is not going to do anything to help us to be prepared and to fight against this pandemic. But that is for another week and it has been, as usual, a pleasure, Scott. I will speak to you soon.

Jacobsen: Thank you so much, Jon.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Mandisa 56 – Flack

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/05/15

Mandisa Thomas, a native of New York City, is the founder and President of Black Nonbelievers, Inc. Although never formally indoctrinated into belief, Mandisa was heavily exposed to Christianity, Black Nationalism, and Islam. As a child she loved reading, and enjoyed various tales of Gods from different cultures, including Greek and Ghanaian. “Through reading these stories and being taught about other cultures at an early age, I quickly noticed that there were similarities and differences between those deities and the God of the Christian Bible. I couldn’t help but wonder what made this God so special that he warrants such prevalence today,” she recalls.

Mandisa has many media appearances to her credit, including CBS Sunday MorningCNN.com, and Playboy, The Humanist, and JET magazines. She has been a guest on podcasts such as The Humanist Hour and Ask an Atheist, as well as the documentaries Contradiction and My Week in Atheism. Mandisa currently serves on the Board for American Atheists and the American Humanist Association, and previously for Foundation Beyond Belief, the 2016 Reason Rally Coalition, and the Secular Coalition for America. She is also an active speaker and has presented at conferences/conventions for the Freedom from Religion Foundation, Secular Student Alliance, and many others.

In 2019, Mandisa was the recipient of the Secular Student Alliance’s Backbone Award and named the Freedom from Religion Foundation’s Freethought Heroine. She was also the Unitarian Universalist Humanist Association’s Person of the Year 2018.

As the president of Black Nonbelievers, Inc., Mandisa encourages more Blacks to come out and stand strong with their nonbelief in the face of such strong religious overtones.

“The more we make our presence known, the better our chances of working together to turn around some of the disparities we face. We are NOT alone.”

Here, we talk about getting flack.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: You have gotten some flack. In getting some of that flack, it has been around people or commentaries looking at one small output of BN. Something as simple as a pamphlet or poster. Then there is a taking of this, a conflation with the seeing of the entire organization in a negative way. How should this be corrected? What is a more responsible form of commentating even if someone is critical and views BN negatively? What would be a fair analysis?

Mandisa Thomas: As with any organization that has been around for a few years or more, I always think there’s room for improvement. We take suggestions into consideration, and we always try to keep the well being of our members in mind. But one thing that we always hold true as an organization is the liberation of multiple kinds, especially sexually. We’ve always been pro bodily expression, and for people to tap into that sexier side – within themselves, and with others. With the consent of course, I’ve also led by example with said expression. In 2012, I took some sexy pictures for a calendar project. It never came to fruition, so I ended up posting them on my Facebook page. There were a few people who criticized me for doing this – basically saying, “How dare you expose your body like that?!” But most of the feedback was positive, especially from other women.

Now, I understand that people will not always agree with the things that we do, and that public criticism is a given.  However, if the commentary is abusive and overly judgmental, then that’s where we draw the line. I also take other important factors into consideration – such as regular participation and support. And I’m happy to say that most who fall into that category agree with our approach. Over the years, we’ve refined our approach to those who disagree with us. We try to establish reasonable dialogue, and also find common ground. But again, If it’s determined that anyone is being unfair in their initial approach and/or in their responses, then we will cut the conversation short and say, “Buh-bye.”

Jacobsen: When is it appropriate when they are doing a broad-based negative critique against black non-believers or even BN? Maybe, it’s a church group that doesn’t like it. They don’t like the representation of African American non-believers. They don’t like sexy photos on posters that are used for some of the advertisements as a means of expression of the group in terms of some of the women of the group, being self-expressive. They disagree on the principle of the matter, but you can respect them in the sense of taking a wider view.

Mandisa: First and foremost, I always recommend that people view our website as well as research other information about us, so that they’ll (hopefully) understand our mission and work better. I’d like to think that we outline this very clearly, and that there are no misunderstandings. However, that isn’t always the case. Religious groups, of course, may not like us because we clearly represent atheism, especially in the black community. 

I have personally told some religious folks where to go and not necessarily in the nicest way. Because they don’t have the right to come at us in a disrespectful manner. As for fellow nonbelievers who may be critique us,  I may challenge them on the origins of their viewpoints to see if they may be valid. I’ve made a practice of looking at the social media accounts of said folks before deciding to respond. It helps with understanding where they’re coming from, and why they may say such things. I also try to be as diplomatic as possible. However, sometimes the way people come at us, it’s hard not to respond in kind. Again, we understand that people might not like what we do, or certain aspects at least – which is fine. But it is NOT okay for anyone to knock us over in the head with a hammer. Because we may swing that hammer right back.  We always hope for the best possible outcome when it comes to disagreements and differences. However, we prepare and respond accordingly, with self care in mind.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Mandisa.

Mandisa: Thank you.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Jon 2 – Freedom Fest 2020 (for Institutional Religion)

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/05/14

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New YorkHere we talk about work to diminish the separation of church and state in the United States.

*Interview conducted on February 24, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, with regards to the current political situation in the United States, religion is having a freedom fest in The White House. Who are some of the main personalities who appear the most egregious in their open statements and actions for violation of the traditional separation of church and state that is idealized in the United States?

Jonathan Engel: It seems like pretty much almost everyone who is surrounding Trump. Start with some of the people who have, not only in this administration but people that he chose to defend him in the impeachment hearing, I would call them extreme religious believers. These are not your average everyday churchgoer. These are people with extreme views, especially when it comes to separation of church and state.

Which is a subject that is especially important to me, extremely near and dear to me, it is endangered in this country. From Trump and then from the people around him who Trump is happy to please, he does not care. He is not religious. He has no beliefs other than the greatest Trumpists. It is hard to believe that Trump would think that there is a God who is any better than he is because he does not think anything is any better than he is.

But you (Trump) are letting them have their way, letting them have their sway over the government, talking about some of the people we’re talking about here, we can start with Pat Cipollone. He is part of the White House Counsel. People talk a lot about the right-wing evangelical protestants, but they are surrounding Trump. There are a lot of extreme right-wing Catholics as well. He is one of them.

He is on the board of the Catholic Information Center, which, in some ways, prioritizes anti-LGBTQ activism. He is a spiritual leader and godfather to much anti-gay-rights stuff. So, start with him, right there, then we are going on to some of the other people who suspended Trump’s impeachment.

We have Ken Starr. The famous Ken Starr from the Clinton investigation. From the Clinton impeachment who is also an extreme person when it comes to religion, he was fired as president of Baylor University, which is a devout Baptist school in Texas. He was fired as president for covering up a sex scandal among the football players.

So, there’s religion and then there’s football. I mean, come on, this is America, you know what I mean? Football is, basically, a religion itself. So, you have Ken Starr. You have Vice President Mike Pence who again, anti-gay rights, a believer that God has appointed him to be a politician.

Then, we have Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, who is a protestant fundamentalist, believes strongly in the rapture and the apocalypse that is coming when Jesus will come back to Earth. Well, first, we must have Israel. Established in the Middle East and, again, that is why so many fundamentalist protestants are pro-Israel because that’s part of the prophecy.

Israel has a war and then Jesus comes back, and the people throw all the non-Christians into the pits of hell including the Jews, by the way. Thank you for being pro-Israel. And Christians float up to him. This guy believes this is going to happen. As far as I’m concerned, all I want to see is, “Oh, if you want to throw me to the pits of hell, that’s okay, but let me see these people float up to him.” I got to think that would be something to see.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Engel: But you also think about, “How do you plan?” I mean, “Why plan for climate change when in 50 years, the world is going to be gone, anyway, with this rapture? Why plan for anything?” Then, of course, the idea of the support for Israel, which is favouring war because again, it is part of the prophecy.

So, that’s Pompeo. But the guy I want to talk, a little bit, the most about is William Barr. William Barr, the Attorney General of the United States. Hard to believe that is true, but it is. He gave a speech at Notre Dame University in the fall, in which he blamed, basically, all the problems of this country on secularism.

That secularists are these horrible people who are destroying the moral backbone of the country, as if religion has anything to do with morality. Again, he talks about a campaign to destroy secularists like me or who are out to destroy the traditional moral order.

The traditional moral order is gay people staying in the closet and blacks staying at the back of a bus and women staying in the kitchen, etc., destroying that traditional moral order, but I don’t think that’s what he was talking about. This is what Barr is looking to do now. Why would Barr continue to be part of Trump’s campaign?

Because Trump will let him do what he wants and this is scary, especially, for me.

A couple of examples of speeches Barr has made in the past. He keeps complaining about public schools failing to provide moral instruction. ‘The moral, the bottom public schools have been based on extremist notions of separation of church and state, on theories of moral relativism which reject the notions that there is such a thing as right and wrong to which the community can demand adherence. There can be no right or wrong without religion.’ I would say that comes as news to me.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Engel: He gave another speech when it was a previous term of the secretary of state in which he said, ‘Because human nature is fallen,’ whatever that means, ‘we will not automatically conform God’s law because we can know what is good. We are not going to be slaves to our passions and wants to the extent that the society’s moral culture is based on God’s law, you will guide men towards the best possible way.’

Okay, as if it should not be a choice or anything, ‘The secularists today are clearly fanatics and their actions are producing soaring rates of crime. Widespread drug addictions, 1.5 million children aborted each year.’ Okay, so, I’m getting into a little bit of what William Barr is all about, but one of the things. In terms of trying to get rid of the separation of church and state, that I find so alarming myself and part of it is my personal background, which is to talk about school prayer.

Like somehow, schools are the problem with kids today, where they do not pray in school. I do not know if I have mentioned it to you before. I do not know if you anything about me, but my father was one of the plaintiffs in these court cases here in the states in 1962 about school prayer.

Jacobsen: That is right.

Engel: So, to me, this is important, but you look at what people like Barr believe that, somehow, if you don’t pray in school, if you don’t have organized prayers in school, that somehow this is going to be a moral blight on the country. That you cannot have morals unless kids are forced to pray in school which I find ridiculous.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Jon.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Takudzwa 29 – Freedom of Expression’s Matrioshka: Member State to International States of Rights

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/05/13

Takudzwa Mazwienduna is the informal leader of Zimbabwean Secular Alliance and a member of the Humanist Society of Zimbabwe. This educational series will explore secularism in Zimbabwe from an organizational perspectiveand more.

Here we talk about the freedom of expression within the context of Zimbabwe and its important to humanists there.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Article 1 and 2 of Zimbabwe’s Constitution of 2013 make the important point of the democratic nature of the society and the supremacy of Zimbabwe’s Constitution of 2013 as the law of the land, people, and institutions of Zimbabwe. Therefore, all considerations of the freedom to express oneself remain grounded in the statements of Zimbabwe’s Constitution of 2013. Article 61(1) of Zimbabwe’s Constitution of 2013 functions in a context of the freedom of expression and the freedom of the media. I find the expressed emphasis on the media an important note to this conversation on freedom of expression within a, in principle, humanist document or constitution. What seems like the overarching rationale for the inclusion of the media and expression rather than expression alone with media implied in Zimbabwe’s Constitution of 2013?

Takudzwa Mazwienduna: The Zimbabwean independent media had carried out a lengthy campaign leading up to the 2013 constitution making process. The previous constitution had unconstitutional amendments limiting the media and making it so that only propaganda from state run newspapers was tolerated. A lot of independent journalists were arrested under the repressive legislation that included AIPPA which I talked about in the last interview. So the emphasis on media was a win pushed for by the opposition and activists calling for the journalists who were arrested to be released.

Jacobsen: Article 61(1)(a) states, “Freedom to seek, receive and communicate ideas and other information.” Where does this become particularly consequential for individual humanists who have been questioning and require the ability to research and substantiate questions about the household religion?

Mazwienduna: That section was also in relation to previous repressive legislation like AIPPA, mostly targeted to journalists rather than humanists. Prior to the 2013 constitution, there hadn’t been really any laws that protected church privilege or infringed on secular rights. Since independence, Zimbabwe was a legal heaven for religious minorities.

Just not a social heaven for them, but a legal heaven nonetheless.

Jacobsen: Article 61(1)(b) states, “Freedom of artistic expression and scientific research and creativity.” To the humanistic sensibility or philosophy, or more fundamentally the defining characteristic of human nature as in the instinct to creatively construct or to create, artistic expression and empirical research seem like different manifestations of truth through metaphor and truth through fact mediated through the evolved organism called a human being. A peculiar creature with certain needs and freedoms. How is this particular article important to creating a more rounded human being through a fulfillment of instinctual requirements for the flourishing of human beings? How does this further make this document humanist in its orientation?

Mazwienduna: Again, the context was mostly political and referred to how artists had been arrested for criticizing or even subtly insulting the regime. The likes of Thomas Mapfumo; a Zimbabwean Jazz legend had been in exile in the United Kingdom for decades all because a song of his criticized the then president Robert Mugabe. Oliver Mtukudzi, another Afro Jazz legend had his fare share of trouble for singing a song suggestive of Mugabe’s old age. So this came after years of campaigns against this tyranny. To the Zimbabwean government, politics is more important than religion and this was surprising yet relieving progress with regards to freedom of expression and speech where politics were concerned.

Jacobsen: Article 61(1)(c) stipulates academic freedom as a necessity within the freedom of expression article. What have been the most controversial parts of science and academic life for Zimbabweans in its history leading to the necessity for this freedom in spite of the offensive, factually incorrect, racist and xenophobic, or otherwise, research? How does freedom to research make an academic culture better rather than not, and a democratic society more democratic than not?

Mazwienduna: This gave freedom for university students to criticize the government in their academic theses or dissertations, something that was not allowed before. Robert Mugabe was the chancellor of all state university and I particularly remember when he caped us during the 2016 graduation ceremony, capping some students who had written theses criticizing him. This was unheard of before the 2013 constitution, and it was a big win for progress.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Takudzwa.

Mazwienduna: It’s always a pleasure Scott.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Mandisa 55 – BN SeaCon and More

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/05/12

Mandisa Thomas, a native of New York City, is the founder and President of Black Nonbelievers, Inc. Although never formally indoctrinated into belief, Mandisa was heavily exposed to Christianity, Black Nationalism, and Islam. As a child she loved reading, and enjoyed various tales of Gods from different cultures, including Greek and Ghanaian. “Through reading these stories and being taught about other cultures at an early age, I quickly noticed that there were similarities and differences between those deities and the God of the Christian Bible. I couldn’t help but wonder what made this God so special that he warrants such prevalence today,” she recalls.

Mandisa has many media appearances to her credit, including CBS Sunday MorningCNN.com, and Playboy, The Humanist, and JET magazines. She has been a guest on podcasts such as The Humanist Hour and Ask an Atheist, as well as the documentaries Contradiction and My Week in Atheism. Mandisa currently serves on the Board for American Atheists and the American Humanist Association, and previously for Foundation Beyond Belief, the 2016 Reason Rally Coalition, and the Secular Coalition for America. She is also an active speaker and has presented at conferences/conventions for the Freedom from Religion Foundation, Secular Student Alliance, and many others.

In 2019, Mandisa was the recipient of the Secular Student Alliance’s Backbone Award and named the Freedom from Religion Foundation’s Freethought Heroine. She was also the Unitarian Universalist Humanist Association’s Person of the Year 2018.

As the president of Black Nonbelievers, Inc., Mandisa encourages more Blacks to come out and stand strong with their nonbelief in the face of such strong religious overtones.

“The more we make our presence known, the better our chances of working together to turn around some of the disparities we face. We are NOT alone.”

Here, we talk about events in 2020 (previously expected with certainty and more with uncertainty now, but there’s a host of great community events and facets available through Black Nonbelievers).

*Interview conducted in early 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, we’re writing in 2020. We’re hitting the ground running with a whole suite of new topics. What are some things people should keep in mind in terms of sign-ups and being ahead of the ballgame for the events of Black Non-Believers?

Mandisa Thomas: Absolutely. One of our major events is the second Woman of Color Beyond Belief conference at the end of September, but we are also hosting BN SeaCon 2020 aboard the Carnival Magic cruise ship. It will be a seven-night cruise this time, and we’ll have more interactive sessions this year. We start promoting the event in December of 2019.

Deposits were originally due on January 10th, but due to a technical glitch, (WordPress constantly changing/updating their functions) we extended the deadline date for registrations to January 15th. Now, that doesn’t necessarily mean that registration will stop, but the initial deposit was due January 15th. That opposed to January 10th. We’re excited about it because we have the opportunity to update folks as the year goes on what they should prepare for and what we have to offer, what the ship has to offer and everything.

Jacobsen: What are we looking at in terms of prices?

Mandisa: The prices start at $800 USD per person for double occupancy, which includes cabin fare, convention registration, port fees and taxes. Carnival, like most cruise lines, offer special amenities for group bookings, such as a cocktail reception and onboard credits. Also, for non profit organizations, Carnival donates a portion of the revenue generated from the group back to it. This gives us an opportunity to raise funds to help pay for our speakers and also to offer guests more perks that come along with being with our particular group – like T-shirts, and other items that we may provide.

Jacobsen: How many people are expected to sign up within the first little bit?

Mandisa: For BN SeaCon 2019, we had 33 people, which was on par with previous years. We’re expecting about 40, hopefully, 50, people this year. There are usually about 20 to 25 people who sign up initially. So, if people miss the initial deadline, it’s still fine for people to sign up afterwards. However, there may be a larger payment required. Cruises are usually paid in increments, and it’s no different when you register for BN SeaCon. But we try to announce the deposit dates early to allow for people to prepare for them, as well as payments down the line. But of course, the more deadlines missed, the more one has to pay in lump sums. So, if you’re prepared to do that, then great. But it’s usually best to stay on schedule with the payments.

Jacobsen: Any further notes with regards to what people should do after they’ve signed up, if they want to go for preparatory work?

Mandisa: Yes. Once you register, you are placed in our email database. So we start communicating monthly, including sharing tips to prepare for the cruise, and payment reminders. We also encourage budgeting for extra things that aren’t included, like drink and internet packages. These items can be prepaid, or onboard the ship.

We don’t want anyone being blindsided, so we try to provide as much information as possible. Again, it’s a trip where you have to be prepared, and should be comfortable, and not struggling at the last minute. It’s a huge part of the community building piece that we offer as an organization.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Mandisa.

Mandisa: Thank you.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Takudzwa 28 – The Rights-Based National Order

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/05/09

Takudzwa Mazwienduna is the informal leader of Zimbabwean Secular Alliance and a member of the Humanist Society of Zimbabwe. This educational series will explore secularism in Zimbabwe from an organizational perspectiveand more.

Here we talk about the rights for the non-religious in Zimbabwe.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: The rights and freedoms enshrined in the Zimbabwean Constitution provide a context for things secularists (properly understood as Zimbabwean constitutionalists, as Zimbabwe is a constitutional republic) can do and can’t do in Zimbabwean society within the stipulated rights and freedoms. What is an important point for comprehension of the times when Zimbabwe transitioned from Rhodesia?

Takudzwa Mazwienduna: The Zimbabwean government practices the rule by law instead of the rule of law in colonial fashion. This is not the only instance in the constitution that contradicts the principles of constitutionalism. That part in the 2013 constitution however was a little progressive, an improvement from the previous law POSA (Public Order and Security Act) and AIPPA (Access to Information and Protection of Privacy Act) which made freedom of speech completely non existent. A lot of people who criticized the government or formed unauthorized meetings were arrested under these laws until 2013.

Jacobsen: To clear out the cobwebs and the dust in the attic here, Zimbabwe’s Constitution of 2013 in PART 9: GENERAL MATTERS RELATING TO PARLIAMENT 148. Privileges and immunities of Parliament 1 states the “President of the Senate, the Speaker and Members of Parliament” have, more or less, full freedom of speech privileges for the purposes of the elected or appointed roles. To Canadians, and the United Nations, this contrasts with “Freedom of Expression” as the utilized phrase in the case of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in Article 19 and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms in Article 2(b). We see “Freedom of Speech” language acutely in the Constitution of the United States of America in Amendment 1. Any idea as to the language differences seen in this particular section of Zimbabwe’s Constitution of 2013?

Mazwienduna: When Zimbabwe transformed from Rhodesia, most of the old laws were retained except those that preserved white privilege. Equality was the order of the day and the 1980s were characterized by reforms that sought to uplift the formerly subjugated black Zimbabweans.

Civic awareness however remained and still remains a big problem. It explains how the government manages to get away with so many violations to the constitution.

Jacobsen: Zimbabwe’s constitution limits the freedom of expression, in an earlier section devoted to the more generalized form of communication terminology, in the case of hate speech. This becomes another time in which the term “speech” emerges in the constitution. Only in relation to the particularized idea of hate speech rather than speech in and of itself. Have any cases arisen relevant to humanists on the subject matter of hate speech against them?

Mazwienduna: The Humanist society in Zimbabwe has benefited from this law in 2017. In one particular instance, a government official who was the Master of Ceremonies at the former president Robert Mugabe’s birthday talked down on non Christians and asserted that Zimbabwe is a Christian nation before leading everyone into prayer. After some members of the Humanist Society of Zimbabwe raised their concerns referencing his stunt as hate speech, the government official wrote an official apology setting an example for other politicians never to do the same. It was one of those rare moments where the law was upheld and it brought hope to all of us.

Jacobsen: Any particular cases of hate speech without consequences while a common occurrence against non-believers in Zimbabwe?

Mazwienduna: The Non Believers in Zimbabwe have generally been safe as far as the law and government is concerned. It is the individual families and society that is ultra religious that is the problem for most.

Jacobsen: A rights-based order represents a humanistic or Humanist enterprise in ethics concretized in print for legal structure of a society compared to a Holy Law-based framework grounded in religious belief structure, text, authorities, and sentimentalities. Any rights-based moral structure separates the divine from the mundane. Thus, secular constitutions become Humanist constitutions in the most fundamental way. The rest becomes details. Zimbabwe, in this manner, wrote a humanist constitution. How does a humanist constitution and a secular society permit the religious and non-religious to live in more harmony together than a religious/theocratic one?

Mazwienduna: The Zimbabwean constitution has given humanists and non religious people the security of legal protection should they face persecution from the religious. This has also protected minority religions, notably African Traditional religions, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists and even Neo Pagans. The Zimbabwean society however remains mostly conservative fundamentalist Christians who break these secular laws a lot by praying in public spheres or holding church meetings in schools and continue to as long as no one reports them. There should be more enforcement of the country’s secular laws and individual humanists have done a great job bringing a lot of such cases to the attention of the authorities.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Takudzwa.

Mazwienduna: It’s always a pleasure Scott.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Mandisa 54 – Pick Your Spots, Be More Sure

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/05/08

Mandisa Thomas, a native of New York City, is the founder and President of Black Nonbelievers, Inc. Although never formally indoctrinated into belief, Mandisa was heavily exposed to Christianity, Black Nationalism, and Islam. As a child she loved reading, and enjoyed various tales of Gods from different cultures, including Greek and Ghanaian. “Through reading these stories and being taught about other cultures at an early age, I quickly noticed that there were similarities and differences between those deities and the God of the Christian Bible. I couldn’t help but wonder what made this God so special that he warrants such prevalence today,” she recalls.

Mandisa has many media appearances to her credit, including CBS Sunday MorningCNN.com, and Playboy, The Humanist, and JET magazines. She has been a guest on podcasts such as The Humanist Hour and Ask an Atheist, as well as the documentaries Contradiction and My Week in Atheism. Mandisa currently serves on the Board for American Atheists and the American Humanist Association, and previously for Foundation Beyond Belief, the 2016 Reason Rally Coalition, and the Secular Coalition for America. She is also an active speaker and has presented at conferences/conventions for the Freedom from Religion Foundation, Secular Student Alliance, and many others.

In 2019, Mandisa was the recipient of the Secular Student Alliance’s Backbone Award and named the Freedom from Religion Foundation’s Freethought Heroine. She was also the Unitarian Universalist Humanist Association’s Person of the Year 2018.

As the president of Black Nonbelievers, Inc., Mandisa encourages more Blacks to come out and stand strong with their nonbelief in the face of such strong religious overtones.

“The more we make our presence known, the better our chances of working together to turn around some of the disparities we face. We are NOT alone.”

Here, we talk about the picking spots and being more sure when, or if, contacting authorities.

*Interview conducted in early 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, there is a reasonably or sufficiently common occurrence of people, often white, calling the police for people living out their lives when they’re black in America. There can be instances in the humanist community. There can be instances outside the humanist community, regardless. What are some things people should be taking into account before they escalate straight to calling the authorities, the police, which is a serious deal?

Mandisa Thomas: Lately, there have been a number of instances where white folks now who are rightfully receiving backlash for calling authorities on black people who are minding their business. In general, When it comes to a situation, and you think it may , I would ask myself a couple of questions. One, “Is anyone being harmed by these actions? Is there anyone in immediate danger?” If there isn’t, then it is best to leave people alone.

There can be dire consequences for black folks once law enforcement gets involved, and can possibly make a benign situation worse. If the situation is harmful, especially is children are involved, then yes, call the authorities, and let them handle it from there. Do not take it upon yourself to call the police or any type of authority if it isn’t absolutely necessary, and definitely don’t take it upon yourself to intervene directly. 

Jacobsen: What are some common occurrences of this?

Mandisa: Well, there’s the ongoing issue of white people – women in particular – who will claim they’re not racist. The most recent was a woman who called on the black family who was barbecuing in a park. A couple of years ago, there was another incident where Yale graduate student who called the authorities on a student who was sleeping in a common area at the school. There are probably far more of these instances that are reported in the news. But upon reading up on these particular situations, I thought “If you receive backlash, you got what you deserved.” One of the women claimed that her life was ruined because of the backlash she got for calling authorities. But ultimately, we don’t have to show sympathy for people who potentially put other innocent people in danger.In this society where people are “colour blind”, they are inconsiderate of possible danger for people of colour when authorities are called. And there should be accountability for White people who continue to do this, because it reeks of privilege. We don’t need to “hear your side to clear you.” – a claim that many White people in these situations have made.  Especially when you did not take the time to engage the subjects objectively. It’s ridiculous to me, to think that they deserve the benefit of the doubt.

Jacobsen: What about the overall situation?

Thomas: For overall situations, it depends on how close you might be. If there may be some resolution without having to call the authorities, then by all means, that’s best. However, it doesn’t mean that you should put yourself in danger. It may be hard to walk away from a situation that potentially could be dangerous. And the colour of one’s skin does NOT validate such a determination. And if there isn’t any imminent danger, I would either leave it alone altogether, or leave it to any authorities that may be passing by. Also, we must consider that eyewitnesses can be fallible. They can possibly be mistaken about something that they’ve seen. So it is best to remain objective and responsible in these situations, and check any biases in the process.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Mandisa.

Mandisa: Thank you.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Takudzwa 27 – Those ‘Before’ Before: 61 Years to Eternity

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/05/07

Takudzwa Mazwienduna is the informal leader of Zimbabwean Secular Alliance and a member of the Humanist Society of Zimbabwe. This educational series will explore secularism in Zimbabwe from an organizational perspectiveand more.

Here we talk about legacy in African freethought.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: In spite of the extensive record of secularism and humanism being built on the backs of some prominent figures in the history of African freethought, including, as Dr. Leo Igwe remarked in the past to me (credit where credit is due), Tai Solarin, Sheila Solarin, Mokwugo Okoye, Beko Ransome Kuti, Wole Soyinka, Steve Okecha, Nkeonye Otakpor. Of course, we can see a current crop:

  • Leo Igwe (Founder, Nigerian Humanist Movement; Founder, Advocacy for Alleged Witches),
  • Mubarak Bala (President, Humanist Association of Nigeria)
  • Alex Mwakikoti (Tanzania)
  • Gayleen Cornelius (Co-Founder, Cornelius Press; Africa Regional Committee Southern Region Representative, Young Humanists International)
  • Viola Namyalo (Uganda, Chair, African Regional Committee, Young Humanists International)
  • Payira Bonnie (President, Humanists of Northern Uganda (Humanists NUg)
  • Jani Schoeman (Former President, South African Secular Society)
  • Rick Raubenheimer (President, South African Secular Society)
  • Wynand Meijer (Vice-President, South African Secular Society)
  • Haafizah Bhamjee (Executive-Administrator, “Ex-Muslims of South Africa”)
  • Karrar Al Asfoor on Atheism (Co-Founder, Atheist Alliance – Middle-East and North Africa & United Atheists of Europe)
  • Roslyn Mould (Board Member, Humanists International)
  • Kwabena “Michael” Osei-Assibey (President, Humanist Association of Ghana)
  • Immoh Obot (Nigeria)
  • Abdulrahman Aliyu (Nigeria)
  • Edward Seaborne (Administrator, “The African Atheist”)
  • Kate Bukulu Sman (Uganda)
  • Larry Mukwemba Tepa (President, Humanists and Atheists of Zambia)
  • Nsajigwa I Mwasokwa (Nsajigwa Nsa’sam) (Founder, Jichojipya/“Think Anew”)
  • Thasiyana Mwandila (Vice President, Humanists & Atheists of Zambia)
  • Prosper Mutandadzi (Zimbabwean Author, Filmmaker, Freethinker, & Humanist)
  • Kamugasha Louis (Executive Director, Freedom Center-Uganda)
  • Kiketha Tadeo (Director, Kyangende Secular Services)
  • Alton Mungani (Co-Founder, Editor, & Curator of Zimbabwean Atheists)
  • Susan Nambejja (Malcolm Childrens’ Foundation)
  • Bwambale Musubaho Robert (School Director, Kasese Humanist School – Rukoki/Muhokya/Kahendero)
  • Abiodun Sanusi (Nigeria)
  • Kenneth Kaunda (African Humanism)
  • Norm R. Allen, Jr. (Former Executive Director, African Americans for Humanism)
  • Lucas Isakwisa (Tanzania)
  • Adeyemi Ademowo Johnson (Nigeria)
  • George Ongere (Center for Inquiry in Kenya)
  • Kato Mukasa (Former Board Member, IHEU/Humanists International)
  • Chiedozie Uwakwe (Nigeria)
  • Alex Kofi Donkor (Ghanaian Human Rights Advocate & LGBTQ Activist)

There are so many others, too, who I cannot even remember off the top. Some we have lost including Deo Ssekitoleko (Representative of Center for Inquiry International – Uganda), Ali A. Mazrui, J.K. Nyerere, George Ayittey, or Kingunge Ngombale Mwiru (Tanzanian politician). On the global community loss, as well, of Ssekitoleko, the idea of the average lifespan hovering around 61 years for Zimbabweans makes the regional community coming together on common problems a necessity, so as to provide a trajectory and sensibility of passing off something worth handing down to the next generations who will inevitably have more energy and less wisdom to comprehend the contexts around them. Why choose a path of secularism, of humanism, of freethought?

Takudzwa Mazwienduna: The cultural evolution in Zimbabwe was disrupted to a large extent by the disenfranchisement of Shona and Ndebele culture by the London Missionary Society. They committed mass genocide killing off natives who refused to convert to Christianity and demonized the local culture and this colonial legacy characterizes religion in Zimbabwe today. This is why religious relativism or progress is unheard of and most people are fundamentalists. There is no room for progress or evolution unless humanism and secularism is emphasized.

Jacobsen: What are the more effective mentoring strategies and development of community sensibility whilst retaining an independence mentality of autonomy and intellectual rigour in younger community members?

Mazwienduna: The most effective method would be to push for this conversation into the mainstream. The more people talk about it at a national level, the more the ideas become mainstream. Most Zimbabweans have never thought about secularism or humanism because they have never heard of it despite our efforts over the years.

Jacobsen: How should the shortness of life in all of our contexts make for a mentoring strategy incorporating of a sense of temporality, where temporality include the self, the larger communal self, and the legacy of those before and how one will become “the legacy of those before” too?

Mazwienduna: The shortness of life is for the most part a development issue particularly in Zimbabwe. 70% of the population lives in underdeveloped rural areas without adequate health facilities and dependant on communal farming, while the urban population has a higher life expectancy. This calls for us to value human development, particularly education, sustainability and health. It is a reminder that the human is the most important in any society and any idea should be given value in relation to how well it advances human wellbeing.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Takudzwa.

Mazwienduna: It’s always a pleasure Scott.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Extensive Interview with Professor John Dugard – Fmr. (4th) United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/05/06

Professor John Dugard is the Fmr. (4th) United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967 (2001 to 2008). He is Professor Emeritus at the Universities of Leiden and the Witwatersr, who remains one of the most important legal and investigative voices in the history of rights and law reportage for the United Nations on this issue of Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories. As with the interview with Professor Richard Falk, this remained another humbling experience because of the depth of history, knowledge, subject matter expertise, and the South African heritage and nationality relevant for the instigation of the comparison with and discourse on apartheid on this topic. Their importance in the legal and rights history of this subject matter cannot be understated. In many ways, they set the tone and calibre of human rights and international humanitarian law reportage to this day. In addition, this exists as a conversation with the last United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967 with extensive access for reportage on ground zero, i.e., setting foot and observing, of Israel, Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem. He was the last permitted this form of access while the United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967 for first-person analysis of the human rights violations and breaches of international law in Israel and in the occupied Palestinian territories, as the subsequent three were not permitted entrance into the occupied Palestinian territories in any significant capacity. Indeed, former (6th) United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967, Makarim Wibisono, resigned/quit from the post, while Falk (5th) and Professor S. Michael Lynk (7th) only remain (Lynk), or only remained (Falk), able to report mostly or completely from surrounding territories and Member States with world-class coverage, fact-finding, and analysis from INGOs, NGOs, CSOs, and others in Israel, the occupied Palestinian territories, and internationally, to support the experiential lack grounded in denial of access.

Here we talk about the counter-responses to serious human rights advocacy and formal charges with documentation of human rights violations, non-criticism ‘criticisms,’ “frank criticism” as a problem for European representatives, individual organizational representatives mouthing state propaganda and not believing the propaganda themselves, South African heritage and nationality as a factor in analysis, common themes in some of these settler-colonial states or domains of European-Christian settler-colonialism, white supremacy as backed by religion in South Africa and the transition from this, Falk’s concept of “biblical entitlement” among some Israeli settlers, the Law of Occupation and the Fourth Geneva Convention in relation to an Occupying Power, distraction from political engagement, creationism, anti-evolutionism, apartheid, and the Evangelical movement, and apartheid discourse, the case of Dr. Norman Finkelstein, Palestine Non-Member Observer State status in regards to Canadian hypocrisy and Canadian complicity in the occupation, and the diverse nature of influences on the conflict or the Israeli-Palestinian issue.

*Interview conducted on April 9, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Let’s start on some of the issues of when individuals historically to the present have critiqued human rights violations in the occupied Palestinian territories or in Israel, and the responses individuals have gotten for those, what came your way? What do you know comes people’s ways when they engage in serious human rights advocacy and charges, formal charges, with documentation, of human rights violations?

John Dugard: At the outset, you must distinguish between my role as special rapporteur and of the role as special rapporteurs of Richard Falk and S. Michael Lynk. That’s because I was allowed to visit the occupied Palestinian territory.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Dugard: I think that’s a very important distinction. I was appointed after 3 or 4 previous special rapporteurs who were sympathetic to Israel and resigned because they were opposed to the office of the special rapporteur. They thought; it was one where Israel was singled out for special attention. I think the Israeli government felt that they were on safe ground when I was appointed. I, recently, together with Richard Falk and Kamal Hussein compiled a report on the Second Intifada in 2001. Looking back at it, it was, generally, a very kind report – very kind to Israel. In the following sense, we were not sharply critical of select issues. We did not question, whether Israel practiced apartheid in the occupied Palestinian territories or not. Israel had reason to believe I was not going to be much of a threat coupled with the fact that ties between Israel and South Africa were very good. Certainly, the ties were very good before the end of South African Apartheid. So, the Israeli ambassador to Geneva, at the time, said to me, “We will not cooperate with you at all as special rapporteur. But as a South African, you will not require a visa and are very welcome to visit Israel and occupied Palestine territories.” I was allowed into the occupied Palestinian territories throughout my term as special rapporteur for seven years, which meant I was able to report the facts on the ground. Both Richard and Michael have had to take evidence in neighbouring countries. In this manner, I was very different from Richard and Michael. My reports were based on what I had observed in occupied Palestine territories.

Jacobsen: What about non-criticism ‘criticisms’ coming to individuals who point out human rights violations of all parties? For instance, some might get charges of anti-Semitism if they critique policy or the illegal settlements.

Dugard: First of all, I was the special rapporteur at a time when the charge of anti-Semitism was not as developed as today. For instance, I was never accused of being anti-Semitic by the Israeli government. I was accused of anti-Semitism by the American Anti-Defamation League, U.N. Watch, and other pro-Israeli NGOs. However, the Israeli government never went that far. You must bear in mind that when I started, I focused very much on violations of human rights and violations of humanitarian law. It was only near the end of my term as special rapporteur in 2007 that I said, ‘I have a sense of déjà vu being in the occupied Palestinian territory,’ because apartheid is practiced there. Then I made the comparison with South African Apartheid. Thereafter, I became heavily criticized, particularly by the Israeli government and United States in the Human Rights Council and the United Nations in New York. They never levelled a charge of anti-Semitism at me. Although, they were heavily critical of my reports. The vitriolic criticism came from NGOs and individuals. I had a very strange experience on one occasion. I was at a protest in Bil’in when the IDF fired a tear gas canister in my direction, which exploded fairly near to me. I got a whiff of tear gas and moved away. But it was misreported in the Palestinian press that the ‘special rapporteur was hit by a tear gas canister.’ I got a profuse apology from the Israeli Foreign Ministry. I had to write back, “I was not injured at all.”

It was a very strange relationship. The Israeli Foreign Ministry kept a watch over us. If we had a difficulty with the IDF, for instance, if we were held up for several hours at a checkpoint, we would phone the Foreign Ministry. It would intervene on our behalf. I can’t say that I was well-treated, but I was treated in a fairly civil fashion. I was, of course, regularly criticized by the Israeli government, by pro-Israeli NGOs and other governments. One representative of the European Union said I was not part of the solution; but part of the problem. Europeans didn’t like my reports because they didn’t like frank criticism of Israel or the European States.

Jacobsen: When you say, “Frank criticism,” what, in general terms, constituted “frank criticism,” which amounted to a problem for the European representatives?

Dugard: Most of my reports were from observations of the situation in the West Bank, Jerusalem, and Gaza, where I travelled freely until the end of 2007. I reported very frankly on what I had seen involving violations of human rights and humanitarian law; and, in later years, I described it as apartheid, which was embarrassing to some European states. Others were more supportive. I consulted frequently with diplomats from the European Union and got a mixed response. Of course, the Israelis and the United States were equally critical. Once, in the Third Committee of the General Assembly in New York, the U.S. delegate savagely criticized me, accusing me of bias and distorting the facts. During the coffee break, she came up to me and quietly apologized. She said that she had been obliged to read a speech prepared by the State Department.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Dugard: [Laughing] She clearly didn’t believe the statement read aloud by her.

Jacobsen: Is this common? In that, an individual United Nations special rapporteur dealing with one of the more difficult contexts. They acquire criticism from representatives of governments or organizations who do not even believe the criticism coming from them. They’re reading a script.

Dugard: That’s true. Many diplomats will carry out their government’s instructions of what to say in public. Others will inject personal opinions. It is important to bear in mind. I received a lot of criticism from the U.N. Secretariat. There is a tendency to think the U.N. is united in its response to the situation in Palestine with the exception of the Security Council, where the veto prevails. The U.N. Secretariat has been heavily infiltrated by the state of Israel. For instance, when I spoke to some of the senior officials during the proceedings before the International Court of Justice on the Wall, they were highly critical of the fact that the court was considering the matter at all. In fact, the Deputy Secretary-General for Political Affairs, Kieran Prendergast, from the United Kingdom, told me quite frankly; he had never been in favour of the advisory opinion. The Deputy Legal Counsel of the United Nations gave an opinion advising Kofi Annan, Secretary-General, that he was not obliged to follow the advisory opinion. I don’t think one can underestimate the influence of members of the Secretariat who are very sympathetic to Israel.

Jacobsen: When did the charge of anti-Semitism become more politically useful and, indeed, powerful against those who critiqued Israeli actions as a state?

Dugard: I would identify two reasons. First of all, I think the charge that Israel practices apartheid is very serious. Israel does not like to be accused of being an apartheid state. Although, one must bear in mind; that it kept very close relations with Apartheid South Africa. So too, its supporters abroad. The attempt to define anti-Semitism in terms of the International Holocaust Alliance definition of anti-Semitism has given rise to the present situation in which there is a determination to expand the scope of anti-Semitism to include vigorous criticism of Israel’s practices. For instance, one of the provisions of the International Holocaust Alliance definition provides that it is anti-Semitic to demand of Israel a higher standard of behaviour than other states. But that’s what was the precise problem with the Apartheid South African regime. Here it was, a white regime professing to aspire to Western values, which was behaving badly. So, the international community clearly demanded of the South African government a higher standard of conduct than other States, particularly developing States. However, now, in the case of Israel, we are told if you do so that it is anti-Semitic. The definition of anti-Semitism has been widely expanded. The problem is, of course, most public figures – and ordinary persons – do not like to be accused of being anti-Semitic. So, if one starts to talk about Israel-Palestine, it is much wiser to change the subject and talk about the weather. Otherwise, you will get into trouble. If you say anything highly critical of Israel, then you will be accused of anti-Semitism.

Jacobsen: Also, as a footnote to the commentary to Apartheid South Africa – two footnotes, it was a minority white population dominating the rest of the population. Another footnote to that. You are South African. So, how does this influence personal opinion and professional substance?

Dugard: I was part of the struggle against apartheid in South Africa. I directed a human rights NGO in South Africa. No one questions my credibility or my credentials as an opponent of apartheid, or someone who knew what apartheid was or wasn’t in South Africa. At the same time, I was allowed into occupied Palestinian territory for seven years by the Israeli government with permission to examine and observe the situation. So, I was given a rare opportunity to compare and contrast the two situations. I enjoy a special status when it comes to comparing apartheid in occupied Palestine territories with South African Apartheid.

Jacobsen: If we look at the history of Canadian society, of the four major settler-colonial societies – New Zealand, Australia, United States, and Canada, there was a long history of anti-Indian, in terms of the former phrasing, or anti-Indigenous peoples ideologies, actions, and policies within Canadian society. It was endorsed by the state and carried out by the churches in the cases in the Residential Schools. Our first colony in New France. There were slaves. 2/3rds were Indigenous. If we look at the educational outcomes, formal educational outcomes, of the Indigenous or the Aboriginal population today, it is different, on health, in both lifespan and healthspan. This is echoed in New Zealand, Australia, and the United States. Although, I am aware New Zealand moved farther in reconciliatory efforts with the Maori. If we look at these countries, it seems similar to the situation in South Africa Apartheid. In that, it was white racists, who were the settler-colonialists in many ways. What are some common themes in some of these settler-colonial states or domains of European-Christian settler-colonialism, which was carried out in a long-term, significant, and comprehensive manner?

Dugard: I think there were similar features in all those societies, so-called white dominions – Australia, Canada, New Zealand, and South Africa, until the end of World War Two. It was accepted that their policies were in line with the behaviour at the time. The first criticism of South Africa came from India with the treatment of the Indian minority in South Africa, not the treatment of black South Africans. Mistreatment of black South Africans came later in 1952. So, yes, there are common features. Today, it is no surprise to me that Israel claims its strongest support from Australia and Canada, apart from the United States, because these are both settler-colonial societies. New Zealand, thankfully, dissociates itself.

Jacobsen: Some commentary in the United States and in Canada media caters to certain sensibilities from previous eras. The demographics were different. The racist and sexist ideologies were ascendant. When examining some of the commentary, we’re seeing in the rise of ethnic nationalism (or white nationalist movements) as one form of strongmanism. How is the diminishment of that ideology akin to some of the things in Apartheid South Africa? These have been catalogued by the Canadian Anti-Hate Network or the Southern Poverty Law Center in the United States. Often, it is tied to some fundamentalist interpretations of Christianity alongside the ethnic supremacist ideological leanings. How was this combatted in South Africa?

Dugard: After the 1960s, one seldom heard justification for Apartheid in terms of religion or in terms of racial superiority. This is another thing, which I find very troubling. We are seeing the opposite happening in Israel. Israeli society is becoming more and more racist in terms of beliefs and racial superiority. That is what seems to drive the likes of Benjamin Netanyahu. One looks at the behaviour of Israeli settlers, Israelis. They are clearly guided by religious sentiment into believing in racial superiority. So, they are, in fact, practicing apartheid as originally practiced in South Africa in the first ten or fifteen years of Apartheid, when it was openly a policy of racial domination.

Jacobsen: Does the concept proposed by Professor Richard Falk of “biblical entitlement” come into play with ethnic supremacism as a bubbling or rising phenomenon among Israeli settlers?

Dugard: Yes, I would agree with Richard. That clearly was the position in South Africa in the first ten or fifteen years of Apartheid. Many white South Africans believed in Apartheid as a policy of racial domination. They got some comfort from religion. However, government spokesmen were clear about “Separate Development” not being a policy of racial domination. Apartheid in South Africa was terrible. There was racial discrimination. There was oppression. But at the same time, there was a sense of idealism in that the South African government wanted Bantustans to exercise self-determination. Thus, the government established schools, clinics, and industries to encourage blacks to move to the homelands. In my opinion Israeli apartheid, at present, is, in many respects, worse than South African because there is no idealistic element to it. The Israeli government unashamedly leaves all of the humanitarian work in Palestine to foreign donors. UNRWA and individual European states have projects in the West Bank and Gaza. So, they do take the place of Israel’s obligations. They are fulfilling an obligation, in which, under the Law of Occupation, rests with Israel.

Jacobsen: The Law of Occupation here, we’re referencing the Fourth Geneva Convention about Occupying Powers or the Occupying Power. In terms of something mentioned earliest in the interview, the United Nations Security Council, the use of veto power, and in the highly biased use of veto power in the favour of Israel as a Member State of the United Nations.

Dugard: The United States has cast over 40 vetoes in favour of Israel. So, it effectively ensured the Security Council is unable to act against Israel. That’s why Resolution 2334 on settlements adopted in 2016, in the last years of the Obama regime, was so important because the United States government decided to withhold its veto. However, as a footnote, one is led to believe Joe Biden was strongly opposed to the United States dropping its veto on that occasion. The United States was much stronger in its resolutions after the 6-Day War. It gave its approval to Resolution 242, which provided the parameters for peace. Thereafter, the United States became very pro-Israel. It has become even more so today. Now, we have the strange situation. The United States promoted the establishment of the Quartet comprised of the United States, the Russian Federation, the U.N., and the E.U. to further the peace process in the Middle East. The Quartet made a number of half-hearted attempts at formulating some policy for the Middle East. However, today, it no longer operates because the United States ensures its inoperability. The United States has managed to change the attitude of member States of the Security Council towards Israel. The US has furthermore encouraged States, including Canada, to reject the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court in respect of the Palestinian issue.

Jacobsen: There’s a phenomenon probably in all developed nations. It has social and political consequences most seriously seen in distraction tactics as a cultural phenomenon. For instance, there are very large followings of conspiracy groups, conspiracy theory groups. There are very large followings of fundamentalist religious groups who think the End Times are coming, or ghosts are haunting them, or demons and the Devil will be coming after them, or some secret cabal is coming to destroy the way of life for them. Does this perform a particular function with distracting some publics away from serious political engagement on issues?

Dugard: You’re talking about strange religious beliefs. I don’t think one needs to go that far. I think that the United States Evangelicals have gone a long way in formulating policy towards Israel. The Jewish community in the United States is divided, but the Evangelical community is not. Of course, the Evangelicals in America have the most anti-Semitic view of all. They believe: if the Messiah comes again, the Jews will be exterminated if they do not accept him.

Jacobsen: To clarify, we’re talking about tens of millions of Americans.

Dugard: Oh, exactly.

Jacobsen: Even as a peripheral comment, I read all – literally all – of the commentary and organizations, and articles, on creationism in Canada, and some in the United States and North America. If you look at this stuff in general, especially Intelligent Design and some others, they will say, “It is not about God or the Christian God,” and so on. It is obvious, even from leading proponents. They still state this is based on John 1:1 or the God of Intelligent Design is, ultimately, the Christian God, etc. It is the presentation of a neutral orientation. Then when one reads formal publications of the individuals coming out of these organizations, they have an explicit Christian bias. If you look at the leadership, almost all are middle-aged to elderly white males who are Christian. You see rhetorical flourishes, dissimulation, and misrepresentation to the public. It is mendacious. I think some of this rhetoric around white nationalism and religious fundamentalism is similar.

Dugard: I think there is a pretty close correlation between creationism, anti-evolutionism, and apartheid, and the Evangelical movement. Let me, by way of digression, mention, the Apartheid regime was bitterly opposed to evolution, to the teaching of evolution. It was not allowed to be mentioned in schools. So, one sees the same creationist attitude replicated in the Evangelical movement in the United States. It is the same in many of the religious communities. There is a close relationship between creationism and support for apartheid. However, that’s your subject.

Jacobsen: We see this in the United States with voter disenfranchisement, poorer schools, and stark differences in levels of poverty. These have lifelong and intergenerational effects. It may be a convenience factor to ignore the issues or to demonize particular pockets of a population, or keep people distracted with various forms of fundamentalism, whether ethnic, religious, or secular – worship of the state. Anyhow, how does this conversation around apartheid apply, not in the abstract but, in the concrete to Israeli society, Israeli settlers?

Dugard: Apartheid is, today, designated as an international crime in the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court. It is a species of crime against humanity. It is carefully defined. So, it is, in that context, important to the International Criminal Court because the Government of Palestine has referred the practices that prevail in occupied Palestinian territories to the International Criminal Court for examination with a view to investigation and prosecution. The Government of Palestine argues that the practices of Israel in occupied Palestine meet the necessary requirements for the crime of apartheid. Basically, there are three requirements. In the first case, there should be two ethnic or racial groups, the Jewish-Israelis and the Palestinian-Arabs. So, there’s no question about two racial groups. Second, there should be certain very serious inhumane acts such as murder, extermination, torture and persecution. Third, these inhumane acts should be carried out by one racial group with the intention to suppress and dominate the other group. When one looks at the policies of Israel in occupied Palestinian territories, it is easy to find that these requirements are met. That’s why Palestine has asked the International Criminal Court to investigate the crime of apartheid. Of course, the Court has other crimes before it for examination. The most obvious of these is the war crime of transferring Israeli civilians into the occupied territory of Palestine and the construction of settlements. Today, there are between 700,000 and 800,000 settlers in occupied Palestine that provide the basis for the policy of apartheid.

You have two racial groups with Jews in settlements and Palestinians who are treated differently, in much the same way blacks were treated in South Africa. The International Criminal Court is required to confront crimes of this kind – apartheid, the war crime of construction of settlements and violations of international humanitarian law. It is a difficult decision for the International Criminal Court. When one thinks about the European countries that provide the major funding for the International Criminal Court, they are very hesitant to give support to the label of apartheid being applied to Israel and Palestine because Israel may retaliate and label them as anti-Semitic. Many states and the Israeli government have sought to deflect attention from Israel’s crimes by arguing that Palestine is not a state and, therefore, has no right to bring this case before the International Criminal Court. I want to look at the whole question of apartheid in a broader perspective and to raise the question, “Why it is that Western states are unwilling to confront the evidence that apartheid is applied in the occupied Palestinian territory?” That is really what concerns me. These states are prepared to accept that Israeli settlements are unlawful; that Israel acts disproportionately in its attacks on Gaza. Even though such states are prepared to accept that Israel practices torture and demolishes Palestinian houses, they are not ready to confront the question of whether Israel practices apartheid.

I think that once most Western states accept that Israel practices apartheid that will be the end of occupation of the Palestinian territory.

Jacobsen: If we take a step back and zoom out from some of the commentary so far, with the U.N. Security Council, we have the United States using, potentially abusing, veto power 40 or more times. We have UNRWA, the European Union, various individual Member States of the United Nations, and organizations (NGOs, INGOs), funding or giving humanitarian aid to Palestinians in the occupied Palestinian territories. Also, we have a deflection of criticism with charges of anti-Semitism or, in prior times, during your tenure as the U.N. Special Rapporteur, of “strong bias.” In a sense, this is a context in which Israel occupies Palestinian territory since the June, 1967 war followed by attempts to bring formal critiques and then the United States blocking in the U.N. Security Council, then the European Union, individual Member States, and NGOs and INGOs, funding through humanitarian aid the individuals who are most in need. Another side of that coin being the funding of the results of the hemorrhaging of human lives and an occupation, and then using charges of a particular type of racism to deflect any form of formal criticism. Is this a unique situation in the setup to favour of occupation for Israelis against Palestinians in the Palestinian territories?

Dugard: I think one has to recognize that Israel occupies a very special position in today’s world. The South African Apartheid regime after some time lost the support of Western states completely. It had no Godfather, so to speak, to wave the magic veto wand. Ultimately, the United Nations did impose sanctions and an arms embargo. That was the situation in South Africa. In the case of Israel, there are a number of factors, which provide full protection for Israel. First, the fear of the label of anti-Semitism. Second, Holocaust guilt. Many Western European nations believe, rightly, that they behaved badly during the Second World War, as they could have done more to protect Jews. So now, they are doing their best to protect Jews in Israel. Norman Finkelstein is the expert here.

Jacobsen: As a small note for readers today, the Holocaust Industry, by Dr. Norman Finkelstein, is a seminal and important text, which Professor Noam Chomsky, formerly at M.I.T. and, currently, at Arizona State University, warned him against making any moves forward there. Although, he left him open to freely do it. If he did, he would have pissed off people in high places. It would not come consequence free.

Dugard: And that happened.

Jacobsen: Yes, Noam Chomsky wrote an article called “The Fate of an Honest Intellectual.” It was a similar case with the Joan Peters book. He went through the citations, showed it was a fraud, and this was when Chomsky was particularly warning him, ‘If you point this out, you’re going to show the American intellectual community as frauds. They’re not going to like it. They’re going to come after you. And they’re going to destroy you.’ He listened, didn’t take the advice. Now, someone who should be Professor Norman Finkelstein is a Dr. Norman Finkelstein with a doctorate from Princeton University in Political Science, who has, for his intellectual integrity, and really solo adventure and careful scholarship, paid the price for his entire life.

Dugard: I know Norman well. There is another fact that I have not mentioned. In addition to Holocaust guilt and anti-Semitism, there is the strength of the Israeli lobby. Not only in the United States, but also in other Western countries. It is very powerful and has strategies in order to advance its cause ranging from outright bribery to blackmail. Those three factors ensure that Israel is protected. South Africa tried desperately to get lobbies in foreign countries. It had no arguments such as anti-Semitism, and Holocaust guilt to fall back on. In short, the South African regime was unprotected while Israel is very, very strongly protected. It is difficult to see how Israel will ever be held to account. That’s why apartheid is important because once it is accepted that Israel applies the policy of apartheid in the occupied Palestinian territory; it will become untenable for some Western states to support it.

Jacobsen: In 2012, there was a resolution to give Palestine Non-Member Observer State status. 130+ Member States were for, 9 were against. 1 of those was Canada. So, Canada says the right things in terms of alignment with international consensus, international morality, international law, and international rights, it does the opposite based on the voting record. How are Canadian government and policy complicit in the occupation? There is a consensus in the international community on the existence of an occupation.

Dugard: The Canadian government is complicit in the sense that it supports Israel completely. The attitude of the Canadian government in the case of Palestine before the International Criminal Court (ICC) is unusual, confusing and duplicitous. Seven states have made submissions to the pre-trial chamber of the ICC stating that they are opposed to the exercise of jurisdiction by the International Criminal Court in respect of Israel’s crimes against Palestine. These countries are Germany, Austria, Czech Republic, Hungary, Uganda, and Brazil. Canada has not made such a submission. But Canada has written a letter, a confidential letter, to the pre-trial chamber giving its reasons for not supporting the exercise of jurisdiction. No one knows what is in that letter; there is a suggestion that is largely circulated that Canada has said, ‘Look, we are one of the major financial contributors to the International Criminal Court. If you proceed, you might not get a contribution from us.’ That is pure speculation. However, we know that Canada has written this letter to the pre-trial chamber opposing the exercise of jurisdiction by the Court. This is a very devious approach on the part of the Canadian government. It would be good if you could find out what that letter contains.

Jacobsen: If the occupation ends, how will this change the discourse in settler-colonial societies, settler-colonial states?

Dugard: I think one must see the ending of the occupation as the first step because this will lead to the acceptance of Palestine as a separate state. Then, of course, the relation between Israel and Palestine will be the next step. Settler-colonialism will be brought to an end when the occupation is brought to an end, as far as Palestine is concerned. The Palestinian minority in Israel is another question, which we have not mentioned. But I do think the ending of the occupation is the important issue one needs to address.

Jacobsen: There are members of the secular community, even prominent ones, who make extremely ignorant commentaries and statements. In other words, they boil down all the contextualizations, all the history, all the human rights violations, all of the issues, down to one variable: religion. What would be the response to the argument or representation of the entirety of the Israeli-Palestinian issue or the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?

Dugard: On the subject of religion, it is important to stress that different religions pose a particular problem in the case of the Middle East. This was not a problem in the case of South Africa because the black South African community is predominantly Christian and the white elite was Christian too. Islam was never accepted on a large scale in South Africa. There’s a relatively small Islamic community, largely Indian. So, religion was not a divisive factor in South Africa. The liberation struggle was led by Christian leaders. Whereas in the case of Israel-Palestine, we have two different religions. It only complicates the issue, which is another story.

Jacobsen: Mr. Dugard, thank you so much for your time, sir.

Dugard: I’ve enjoyed the conversation.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Humanist Canada calls for release of Nigerian Humanist President

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/05/05

VANCOUVER, British Columbia May 5, 2020 PRLog — Canadian Humanists are supporting calls from Humanists International to have Mubarak Bala released from a Nigerian jail. Bala, who is president of the Humanist Association of Nigeria, was arrested by Nigerian police April 28 following a complaint the had insulted the prophet Mohammed in a social media post. Bala, who is a former Muslim, has been arrested without formal charges. Bala’s lawyer has not been allowed access to his client.

“The right to be charged within 24 hours of arrest and the right to legal counsel are enshrined in Nigerian law. In addition, we would request: if Mr. Bala is charged with a crime, then the charge is, or those charges are, heard in a secular as opposed to an Islamic court, as he is a humanist, atheist, and former Muslim,” said Scott Jacobsen, international rights spokesman for Humanist Canada. Humanist Canada Vice-President, Lloyd Robertson, said Canadians can support Mr. Bala’s defence campaign organized by Humanists International by visiting:

https://www.gofundme.com/f/free-mubarak-bala

He added that international support is important for the protection of minorities.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Jon 1 – Secular Humanism in New York State

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/05/04

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New York

Here we talk about Reasonable New York, the Freethought Caucus, and Darwin Day.

*Interview conducted on January 27, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What is Reasonable New York? Why was it necessary to found another organization apart from some of the other secular humanist organizations in New York?

Jon Engel: Reasonable New York is a consortium of secular organizations in the city. The members include the Secular Humanist Society of New York (of which I am a member and the President), the Center for Inquiry-New York City, the Center for Inquiry-Long Island, Feminist Freethinkers of New York, New York City Brights, New York City Skeptics, New York Society for Ethical Culture, Secular Coalition of New York, and the Stoic School of Life. Sometimes, it is funny. It sounds like the scene from Monty Python’s Life of Brian, where they are all arguing for the Judean People’s Front or the People’s Front of Judea. Sometimes, it sounds that way. One of the reasons that we started this organization, Reasonable New York, is to stay out of each other’s way. We check each other’s calendars to make sure that nobody is doing an event on the same day as somebody else. But also to exchange, “Where is a good place to hold an event?” This is a large reason as to why we did it. We do some things together. Twice a year, we do an event, a Summer Solstice party and a Winter Solstice party. It is a big get together to invite people from all the groups to talk and then exchange information.

Jacobsen: How does this extend into the political arena through the Freethought Caucus?

Engel: Reasonable New York is interesting. Some of these groups are very much non-political, but not us. We have some members of the Secular Humanist Society who are part of a national group that has created a PAC, political action committee, to help fund candidates who are either in or willing to be in the Freethought Caucus. The Freethought Caucus has 12 members in Congress. I think this is a fantastic thing. Religious groups are so represented. In April, in Washington, there is something that they call the Day of Prayer, which, actually, my group decided to counter with our own Day of Reason. But seculars, secularists, are not really represented very much in Washington. It is still difficult o get people to accept a nonbeliever and an atheist can be a good citizen. Of course, I know it’s true [Laughing]; I think you know it’s true.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Engel: The Freethought Caucus does a couple of things. One, it lets people know that we’re out there. Some members of the National House of Representatives include Jared Huffman (D-CA), Jamie Raskin (D-MD), Jerry McNerney (D-CA), Dan Kildee (D-MI), and Rep. Pramila Jayapal (D-WA). These are fairly normal people in the states. These are the people who you see on the T.V. if you watch the news shows. It is wonderful to have them out there. But also, they, from an issue point of view, have a mission statement through the Congressional Freethought Caucus to advance the use of science in Washington, which we could use more in the decision-making process, etc., for the government. They also champion the rights of freethinkers and nonbelievers to say, “They shouldn’t be discriminated against.” We have some contact with them. I have written a letter. Even though, it has not worked so far [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Engel: Suggesting that my own representative join. I am going to try to get a meeting with my representative Carolyn Maloney, simply to remind her, “You have constituents who are not religious.” You want our votes. Also, you want the loyalties of all your constituents, including us. That’s the thing that I like about the Freethought Caucus. We vote. We are citizens. When they pass laws and say things, it is good to think of us, and not just the more religious members of the community.

Jacobsen: What is Darwin Day, by the way? What is Darwin Day Dinner?

Engel: Darwin was born on February 12th. I don’t have it in my head. Although, he was, interestingly enough, born on the exact same day as Abraham Lincoln. We celebrate his birthday with a dinner and a lecture about something to do with Darwin’s work. This year we are very pleased to have Dr. Isabel Behncke who is a primatologist, ethologist, who studies animal behaviour. She is one of the few people in the world who has followed up close great apes in the wild. She will talk to us about primate journeys, our primate origins. It is important that we celebrate Darwin. One of the greatest scientists who ever lived, of course, but also a person who put in motion in a lot of ways into where we came from. The religious idea, especially the Christian religious idea in the West, of how human beings came into being; that a deity shot some lightning bolts down and then caused human beings to come into being. That was considered science because nobody knew any better. With Darwin, of course, things changed. A literal interpretation of the Bible was no longer believed with science. This was controversial, even for some of the great thinkers of the day. It was very difficult for them to grasp the thing. To say, “Wait a minute, am I going to have to give up my religious beliefs to still be a scientist?” Because this was to contrast with the Bible, certainly the literal reading of the Bible. We are still going through that today. People who actually believe that the Bible is literally true. We feel that it is very important to celebrate Darwin and to celebrate the idea of freethought. As a concept, freethought, Darwin was the man. He grew up in a religious household. He, at one time, was studying for the ministry. But what he was saying, he found things in his research and in his science that contradicted a literal interpretation of the Bible. He was a freethinker. That’s the definition of it. He didn’t say, “I can’t believe this because this goes against my beliefs.” He said, “No, I have to believe this because this is what my research shows. This is what the science shows. There was, a few years ago, the T.V. presenter, Bill Nye “The Science Guy” had a ‘debate’ with Ken Ham who started the creationist museum. The most telling question at the debate: What would get you to change your mind? Ken Ham rambled on about being a Christian and this is what he believes. Bill Nye said evidence. If enough, and if good evidence, then that would be enough. That’s the difference between a freethinker and a non-freethinker. A non-freethinker will always look at the evidence. A person with dogma will not, “This is what I believe. Frequently, it is religion, but not always.” It still comes into play today. That is why we have for the large part celebrate Darwin. Someone who was willing to stick his neck out and say, “This is the evidence. It doesn’t matter that the dogma around religion. I have to go with the science.” We have this fight, this argument. It is far from over. We still have them today. Sometimes, it feels as if it waxes and wanes. Sometimes, science is more pre-eminent, but there are backlashes as we are seeing now with the denial of the science behind climate change. Really, there’s been a decimation of the scientific community in Washington since Trump came to power because he is backed by Evangelical fundamentalist Christians who do not want to see the science. We celebrate Darwin for what he did then; we celebrate Darwin for what he means for us now.

Jacobsen: Thank you very much for the opportunity and your time again, Jon.

Engel: You’re very welcome, Scott.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Extensive Interview with Professor Richard Falk – Fmr. (5th) United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/04/24

Professor Richard Falk is the Fmr. (5th) United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967 (26 March 2008 – 8 May 2014). Professor Falk is Albert G. Milbank Professor of International Law and Practice, Emeritus, at Princeton University, the Director of the Climate Change Project, and an Advisor on the POMEAS Project in the Istanbul Policy Center at Sabanci University. He is widely revered as one of the great legal minds in the world today, especially on the issue of Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories, and reviled in other circles as well. The position of the United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967 isn’t, and shouldn’t, be taken lightly based the depth and length of the human rights issue, and on the level and extent of state and other actions one can encounter against oneself in the position devoted to this long-standing human rights catastrophe seen on the Israel-Palestinian issue, as Professor Falk and others encountered in their tenures. An individual with a clear sense of human rights, humanitarian law, and the range and character of history. This was a humbling experience. With great pleasure, and a deep sense of honour, I present the extensive interview with Professor Richard Falk to you.

Here we talk about the “Israeli Practices towards the Palestinian People and the Question of Apartheid,” apartheid discourse and sustainable peace, settler–colonialism and the Indigenous in Australia, Canada, the United States, and the United Kingdom, and the Golan Heights and Area C of the West Bank.

*Interview conducted on April 3, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: The topics to be discussed today based on the recommendations of Professor Falk were the relevance of apartheid discourse to a sustainable peace, the Great March of Return, and the annexation of the Golan Heights and Area C of the West Bank. Let’s start at one of the larger conversational pieces around discourse, when you’re phrasing things as “apartheid discourse” and “sustainable peace” as a particular type of peace, what are you intending by apartheid discourse and sustainable peace?

Richard Falk: That’s an important issue, I believe. The way in which language is used in trying to approach the preconditions of a settlement or a solution, and the nature of what one is trying to achieve is often conveyed by a choice of words. Part of my use of “sustainable peace” rather than the naked word ‘peace’ as in ‘peace process’ is to signal a critique of the Oslo diplomacy. I wanted to call attention to a series of failed negotiations and more specifically, to the way in which the United States Government tried to impose a framework of what was misleadingly being called ‘peace’ on negotiations between Palestine and Israel. The diplomatic dynamic was almost explicitly partisan in favour of the stronger side and would have introduced had it ‘succeeded’ – what I would call – a one-sided peace that over time would be little other than a ceasefire between phases of an ongoing struggle. Such an outcome reflecting the geopolitical disparities between the negotiating parties would not have been sustainable even if the Palestinian Authority was persuaded to accept what was being offered. Since it was not a genuine peace agreement it would be inevitably resisted and repudiated at some point. For this reason, it is more realistically understood and interpreted as a ceasefire. As suggested, even if the Palestinian leadership could have been induced to swallow such a one-sided peace arrangement, future generations of Palestinians and young Palestinians, and, maybe, Arab neighbours, would surely reject it when an opportune moment arrived, and then proceed to resume a politics of struggle with the goal of sustainable peace. A fundamental precondition of genuine peace is to treat the parties on the basis of equality and on this basis seek an outcome that embodies a fair compromise. To my mind, that cannot be achieved, so long as present structures of the domination and fragmentation of the Palestinian are maintained. This has made the apartheid discourse responsive to the realities of the diplomatic impasse that has kept the conflict alive decade after decade. It also makes it crucial to challenge, discredit, the alternative paradigm or narrative of liberal Oslo critics, which insists that “ending the occupation” is the vital precondition for reaching peace between Palestinians and Israeli. I believe there are several difficulties with any perspective that concentrates on territory rather than people.

Among other concerns, focusing only on the occupation marginalizes the grievances and rights of the several million Palestinians living in refugee camps in neighbouring countries, and those other Palestinians who are living around the world as involuntary exiles. Also, it doesn’t address the issue of discrimination within Israel itself as between Jews and non-Jews. My view is that this kind of hegemonic relationship between the Jewish/Israeli form of governance and the Palestinian people seen as a whole are, in different ways constitutive of the interaction. This embedding of inequality has to be removed for restorative diplomacy to be able to fulfill its stated purpose of lasting accommodation reflecting widely endorsed views of fairness to both sides. So, my view, and the view that is embodied in the UN study [Ed. “Israeli Practices towards the Palestinian People and the Question of Apartheid” or the Economic and Social Commission for Western Asia (ESCWA) Report.] I prepared in collaboration with Virginia Tilley [Ed. Professor of Political Science at Southern Illinois University]. In our report to the UN, we agreed that the indispensable precondition for diplomacy leading to what I am calling a “sustainable peace” needed to be based on existential equality of the peoples, and this could not be achieved without the prior dismantling of Israel’s apartheid structures of control. The further point is: unless, equality is established between the peoples there will be resistance to the status quo exerted both by Palestinians living under occupation and by a global solidarity movement that is guided by diaspora Palestinians. In turn, continued resistance by Palestinians will lead Israel to respond by a variety means designed to crush, demoralize, and discredit resistance. If this transpires, the likely prospect is a cycle of violent and non-violent confrontations, possibly aggravated by ethnic cleansing of the weaker Palestinian side. This combination of different modes of struggle has characterized the whole century during which this conflict has unfolded. More or less, this analysis of why peace has eluded the parties arises from the contradictory agendas of the two sides, even as they both claim a dedication to a negotiated agreement. This interpretation of failed diplomacy expresses my personal view as to why the apartheid discourse is a preferable and necessary precondition for reaching a genuine peace while endorsing the slogan ‘ending the occupation’ is not. Ending Israeli apartheid clears a more credible realistic path, at least this is so if we assume that the goal of this diplomacy is what it claims to be—the search for a sustainable peace. This assumption is somewhat questionable as the evidence seems to support the view of Rashid Khallidi, and others, that Israel never sought a diplomatic solution, at least after Rabin’s assassination in 1995, and that the U.S. was complicit in acting as if Israel was ready to accept an independent Palestinian state.

Jacobsen: How would Israeli citizens and Palestinian citizens integrate with one another within this “sustainable peace,” early on, given the history?

Falk: Underlying this issue is the anti-colonial movement, which gained strength after World War II, that is, after 1945. One of the perplexing peculiarities of this conflict is that Israel established its political independence at the very time that colonialism around the world was discredited and in a condition of free fall. In one way, the Zionist project was facilitated by the historical context. Zionism overcame many formidable obstacles on the path to its goals by gaining a great deal of sympathy and support as a consequence of the Holocaust and the failure of the liberal democracies to take action that might have prevented genocide against the Jews. This failure produced a post-war sense of liberal guilt. It allowed a myopic sense of Palestine to dominate the political imagination. This land of Palestine was open to settlement by a people dispersed around the world who had a strong historical attachment and strong biblical feelings of entitlement, to be sure, that could be traced back to ancient times. Yet Jews, despite a huge effort to encourage immigration remained a relatively small minority, even as late as 1945 – with about 30% of the population of Palestine being Jewish. This demographic imbalance remained despite the feverish Zionist efforts since the issuance of the Balfour Declaration in 1917 to encourage and subsidize Jewish immigration. This included striking a series of Faustian bargains between the Zionist movement and anti-Semitic governments – Poland, Germany, Ukraine, and others – relating to receiving aid in exchange for settling expelled Jews in Palestine often against their will.

Zionism was also assisted in establishing its military capabilities and arrangement for the removal of Jews from the various European countries. It was understandable to rescue Jews from these very crude forms of persecution, but the process also served the pragmatic priorities of the Zionist movement by increasing the Jewish demographic presence in Palestine. This Zionist Project also served the interests of these European governments that welcomed the removal of Jews from their societies. These developments largely preceded the genocidal phase of Nazism, which didn’t begin to occur until midway through World War II. There was earlier persecution and concentration camps. However, the deliberate and systematic killing of Jews came later and before that the favoured anti-Semitic policy during the 1930s was ethnic cleansing, achieved through some form of voluntary expulsion. That served the world Zionist movement, which was trying to create a sufficient Jewish presence in Palestine. Zionism was totally committed to fulfilling its statist ambitions that included a commitment to establish a democratic political framework, which was understood to require an assured Jewish majority. It is important to understand both of the elements were posited as essential goals in this dominant tendency of Zionism to attain Jewish statehood and legitimacy through being democratic. It sought to attain sovereignty by dominating the political realities of Palestine.

As earlier observed, it was remarkable from a Zionist point of view and tragic from a Palestinian point of view, that a settler colonial polity could be established and gain international acceptance in the middle of the last century. A utopia on one side, a catastrophe on the other side. In this period all forms of European colonialism were being discredited and collapsing in the response to anti-colonial movements dedicated to national independence. This has always created part of the puzzle confronting the state of Israel. How could Israel become internationally legitimate when its origins entailed the cruel displacement of the resident majority population? Several troubling elements accompanied the birth of Israel.

First, the way the 1947/48 War was conducted, including the denial of any right of return to the Palestinians who had been dispossessed and displaced and numbered anywhere between 700,000 and 800,000 from many peasant villages. During the fighting Palestinian civilians were encouraged or forced to flee and many were so frightened that they left their villages just to escape the ravages of combat. Several hundred of these villages were later bulldozed and destroyed by Israel to send a message that those Palestinians who left had no future in Israel and were not welcome to return. This meant the creation of a permanent refugee and dispossessed population that coincided with the establishment of Israel as a sovereign state. These flaws or crimes associated with the establishment of Israel were overlooked by most of the non-Arab members of the international community. Israel received the most important symbol of international legitimacy early in its existence by being admitted as a full member of the United Nations while the Palestinian fate was left unresolved, a huge and unforgivable mistake by the UN.

Combining this failure to find a solution prior to granting Israel UN membership was made that much worse by recommending a partition of Palestine to satisfy the irreconcilable claims of these two peoples. Such a proposed solution was put forth in defiance of the dominant trend toward regarding self-determination as the fundamental and inalienable right of a people, Palestinians and the Arab neighbours overwhelmingly rejected the idea of an imposed partition on the territorial entity governed as a unity during the period of the British Mandate. The British, as was their custom in a series of countries once colonially administered, were the original sponsors of a partition approach, which they had imposed on India, Ireland, Cyprus – a whole series of countries—in part, the outcome of their ‘divide and rule’ approach to colonial administration. This partition policy produced a series of disastrous results, with the worst outcome inflicted on the Palestinian people with no end in sight. The British were not solely responsible for the adoption for this partition approach. The British came to the conclusion that they could no longer govern Palestine effectively as the mandatory power, a role entrusted to them after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in World War I. In frustration, the British gave the UN the responsibility for determining the future of Palestine, a role for which it was not able to discharge in an equitable and fair manner. The United Nations, as became its practice, appointed an international commission dominated by a Euro-American outlook, which came up with this partition proposal. As might have been predicted, it was accepted by the Zionist leadership and rejected by the Palestinians.

I believe the Zionist Project always had on its agenda–which was then a prime goal of Israeli public policy, the recovery of the so-called “Promised Land,” the cultural/secular conception of Palestine as a biblical entitlement of the Jewish people. This sense of biblical entitlement produced an additional kind of tension, which is very often overlooked in commentary on why the political impasse has never been broken. Feelings of entitlement to the land are a fundamental part of the self-justifying narrative affirmed not only by Israel, but also by Jews around the world. This claim of right is not one of self-determination or rooted in international law, or even international morality, although these elements are not entirely ignored in Israeli legitimation discourses. Read the Israeli proclamation of independence and the relevant provisions of the Basic Law of Israel as formulated in 1948 makes evident this emphasis on the Jewish return to a land that was contained in a sacred promise to the Jewish people.

Even after 1967, when Israel first occupied Jerusalem and the West Bank, it never accepted the international language of “West Bank” or “occupied territory.” Israeli politicians of all political persuasions consistently referred to the West Bank by its biblical names of “Judea” and “Samaria” (provinces of the original ancient Jewish state). I believe that calling the West Bank Judea and Samaria was a signal that this land is part of the biblical entitlement, and hence is part of the incomplete Zionist project, and always been part of the unacknowledged political agenda, and not subject to negotiation with the Palestinians. If this is correct is means that the image of a two-state solution was never accepted on the Israeli side and the diplomatic impasse was a convenient way to gain time to establish reinforcing facts on the ground, which is one way of interpreting the settlement movement.

After the 1967 ceasefire Israel almost immediately declared Jerusalem as the eternal capital of Israel and by its law enlarged the area of the city. This contradicted the UN partition resolution, General Assembly Resolution 181 that proposed Jerusalem as the joint capital of Israelis and Palestinians and\ as an international city. There were many changes in expectations reflecting changing power balances and due to the fact that the Zionist Project publicly revealed its full extent only gradually. With tactical ingenuity Israel took what it could get away with at any moment in time, while not treating the last phase of expansion as satisfying the overall vision of the Zionist Project. In reaction, the Palestinians seemed innocent and naïve, and were consistently outmaneuvered, yet helpless. To some extent, the Palestinians didn’t seem to realize that Oslo diplomacy was basically a trap, giving Israel time to alter realities on the ground, mainly through the expansion of the settlement process and the building of the separation wall.

A number of developments created a new set of expectations. The failure o the Oslo diplomacy to find the sustainable peace played very strongly into the favour of Israel and very much to the detriment of Palestine. That, to me, is part of the recent story. One thing I have emphasized throughout is the degree to which the Zionist movement successfully swam against the anti-colonial current and managed to create this, essentially, colonial-settler state in a historical period, where colonialism was discredited and collapsed. This discrediting was reinforced by the United Nations, which was, originally, neutral about colonialism. Gradually, the UN adopted an anti-colonial posture. Partly, this was a result of the outcome of the colonial wars and the anti-colonial movements. Partly, the Soviet pressure always hostile to colonialism, ever since the Russian Revolution, and partly because the United States was ambivalent towards European colonialism, despite its own imperial background, having a certain national pride in being the first movement to an anti-colonial war in its War of Independence. Looked at more critically, the victory was rather hollow. It was the settlers repelling the colonizers, not the native or resident population.

Jacobsen: Regarding expulsions and colonialism, two things come to mind from the history and the description there. You mentioned “colonial-settler state” in a time in which colonialism was in a state of discrediting.

Falk: And collapsing, as well as delegitimizing the whole project of colonizing a foreign people.

Jacobsen: Within some of the anti-colonialist movements or adaptations, and modernizations, to the present, they may not use the phrasing of “colonial-settler state.” They will use the phrase “settler-colonialism.” In other words, they will look at societies like Canada or the United States with some or much of their history as settler-colonialism playing out. If there is a discrediting and collapse in the 20th century of colonial-settler states or settler-colonialism, by and large, yet, we have the Israeli-Palestinian issue grounded in that history since the inception of the United Nations. Does this make that issue, in particular Israel, the state of Israel, the last remnant of a colonial state, settler-colonial state, from the 20th century in the 21st?

Falk: I think, Israel is the last important remnant of the settler colonial political dynamic. What you raise leading up to that issue is interesting because, as you point out, Canada, Australia, the United States, New Zealand, are all settler-colonial states, that have essentially, established their international legitimacy and de facto control long before colonialism was delegitimized. They established kind of closure with respect to their legitimacy essentially by effectively neutralizing the native populations in their respective countries. One way of looking at Israel-Palestine: Israel, despite the ethnic cleansing of 1948 and again in 1967, hasn’t been able to establish that kind of sufficient control to be able to dispose of the native population, that is, the Palestinian population. Also, the historical context was different. When these successful settler-colonial movements occurred, colonialism did not have a negative connotation; in national or international law, or even from most ethical perspectives. Colonialism up to and including World War I was endorsed by the international legal system, reflecting the self-interest of the colonial powers themselves. So, the separation of these countries – United States, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand – was something ambiguous from a de-colonization perspective. These countries were treated as independent sovereign states with only ritualistic ties to their mother country, and spared a colonialist taint. In one respect these countries that broke with colonialism were ironically the most abusive toward the native populations. Their hegemonic control over the native population was sufficient to result in marginalizing the native population, which enabled the erasure of both the discrediting settler and colonialist identity.

The issue hasn’t disappeared altogether in any of these countries. I have been to all of them at one time or another, and have been academically interested in supporting the rights of Indigenous peoples, as they are generally called, there have been different strategies emerging in each of these countries. You could say, “Israel is trying to find some kind of strategy for dealing with the Palestinian people without acknowledging their equality, yet without the ability to marginalize the Palestinian presence. Yet they are being denied the benefits of belonging to their own country of residence, their own homeland.” Of course, such a denial is something in the anti-colonial international atmosphere existing now that is hard to imagine the Palestinian people swallowing without resisting to the extent of their capacity. Indigenous people, as you know in Canada, the United States, Australia, and New Zealand seem a lost cause politically, yet still challenge the established order culturally and socially. The representative voices of the Indigenous communities refuse to accept the legitimacy of the arrangements that exist. These indigenous movement are helpless to challenge, except emotionally and in terms of expressing their sense of being victimized by the historical process by which these states have consolidated their power. Their self-assertion is an expression of spiritual resilience, a refusal to surrender of identity despite an acceptance of powerlessness.

Jacobsen: Different countries will have different ‘outcomes.’ In Canadian society, we have had protests around pipelines. In the United States, they had protests at Standing Rock, which became violent to some degree with militarized police coming into the situation. In general, since you have been to these places, read more, seen more, had more authoritative positions, and had conversations with the individuals who would have authoritative synoptic judgments about these issues, if you’re looking at the Aborigines in Australia, the Maori (in New Zealand), the First Nations, the Metis, the Inuit in Canada, or just any of the number of Native American tribes in America (e.g., Iroquois, the Hopi, etc.), what cases come to mind that mirror some of the issues of the Palestinians and the ways in which there was some leverage of equality for that “sustainable peace”?

Falk: Yes, we are on territory that I have not explored very much recently. However, these experiences are certainly very interesting and somewhat relevant. I think, the Palestinians, unlike the Indigenous peoples of the white settler-colonial countries, were not pre-modern. There was a difference in their political consciousness, an identity that was aligned to modernity. The Palestinians had a sophisticated intellectual class. Palestine was considered the most educated Arab population when the Balfour Declaration was issued in 1917. There was intellectual concern and a sense of foreboding within Palestine from the beginning of the Zionist penetration at the beginning of the 20th century. Although there are similarities, there are important differences. This made it more difficult for Israel to address the resident population in the ways these other governments managed to do prior to the decline of colonialism, which partly reflected the changed historical situation and increased support for self-determination. These values precluded the methods used in the United States, Australia, Canada, and, to a lesser degree, in New Zealand, as far as I know. I spent some time in New Zealand talking with some of the Maori. They, interestingly, said, “We are able to preserve our way of life to a greater extent than the Australian aboriginal people have done because we are like the Vietnamese. We were never defeated in war. We retreated to the mountains. We signed a treaty.” The dominant white population in New Zealand acknowledged the cultural equality of the Maori. I remember, when I was there, even the Prime Minister was studying the Maori language. There were something like 18 Maori language schools in Auckland alone. This does not alter the reality of political marginalization, but rather expressed cultural resilience.

There was a different kind of feeling, as recently as the end of the last century. There could be a cultural accommodation, and a sense of mutuality and equality between settlers and indigenous people. In Australia, you get this feeling that meetings and conferences begin with almost an apology and a prayer. It is a gesture, an expression of guilt. It seems a little hypocritical, but is very much a part of the living sense of how the excesses of the colonialist background should be addressed. You could never imagine this kind of acknowledgement of guilt happening in the United States in the manner of Australia and New Zealand. Americans have written and talked movingly about the injustice done to the Native Americans, there are important Indigenous leaders who have articulated the injustice and founded movements seeking some kind of self-determination within the modern political landscape. I was a friend of Russell Means who was one of the leading voices of the Sioux people and a major figure in the American Indian Movement that captured the nostalgic moral imagination of many Americans projecting a different image of the past than that portrayed in cowboy and Indian movies that often disclosed genocidal patterns of thought and behaviour.

Jacobsen: If you look at the amount of land the Hopi kept, contiguous land, one hunk (surrounded by the Navajo), if you count the square mileage there, it’s about as much as 1/5th of all the land combined that Canadian Aboriginals kept. So, there was something in the history of the dynamic that played out much differently, at least in Canada compared to the United States, in the case of the Hopi compared to the 600+ bands in Canada. So, another topic on the agenda is the Great March of Return or the Great Return March. Depending on the person that you talk to, the phrasing will be different. The most frequent one that I have heard is the “Great March of Return.” So, with regards to it, there is a day, for those who may not know reading this, called Nakba day. For the Great March of Return, what has been the reaction of the international rights community?

Falk: First of all, the Great March Return should be perceived and understood as a largely non-violent movement among the people Gaza who are claiming the right to return to their homes from which they, their parents, or their grandparents were expelled or fled decades ago. The basic image of “return” is a sense of legal, moral, and political entitlement. They are not trying to enter a society in which they have no legitimate claims. They have many serious grievances, painful experiences, and long records of having rights denied. These Palestinians sought to dramatize those grievances so long denied by confronting Israel at its border. Israel responded with live ammunition, use of snipers that targeted medical workers and others, and, definitely, engaged in or relied upon tactics that were excessive from the perspective of international humanitarian law by reference to Israel’s right to defend its borders and prevent unauthorized individuals from breaking the fence and crossing into Israel. On the Palestinian side is the issues related to seeking visibility and international support for unacknowledged grievances that have persisted over such a long time and have been accompanied by the blockade of Gaza for more than twelve years, accompanied by a very harsh form of confinement and occupation. It is misleading to separate the protest activity from the overall oppressive conditions: an overcrowded living space, an impoverished population with the great majority of inhabitants jobless and dependent on humanitarian assistance just for survival. Gaza has been the target of periodic military incursions or armed operations by Israel in 2008/09, 2012, and 2014, as well as pervasive daily uses of force that have traumatized the entire society; a civilian population confined in these very difficult circumstances, which I have witnessed. I was able to travel to Gaza via Egypt before al-Sisi limited access in 2012. It is difficult to imagine living in for a week, much less a lifetime.

This initiative was not started by Hamas, which is in control of the administrative processes of Gaza. The Great March was at the start a spontaneous civil society initiative of coming together every Friday to protest. This was an impressive movement because it mobilized a large number of Palestinians in spite of the violent Israeli response by way of sophisticated weaponry and excessive uses of force directed at basically unarmed demonstrators who lacked any means of self-defence. These Palestinian protestors continued to show up on successive Fridays for more than a year in spite of enduring heavy casualties and the deliberate crippling of protestors caused by snipers shooting at and below the knees. A very shocking pattern of Israeli response that wasn’t responsibly dealt with by the international community, especially if proper account is taken of Israel’s obligations as an Occupying Power in relation to the civilian population of Gaza. The Palestinians have long been lectured by liberals in the West: Since Israel is a democratic society it would be responsive to non-violent protests by Palestinians. This experience once more showed Israel’s iron fist tactics as applied to the Palestinian people no matter how their opposition was manifested. Despite these concerns, as far as I could tell, there was virtually no sympathetic coverage of the Great March in the mainstream media. What attention was given was devoted to reporting on how many people were killed, what happened week-to-week as to the size of demonstrations. So, it’s a very dispiriting outcome, which reinforces the conception that Israel thinks it can defeat militarily the Palestinian challenge and, basically, create a situation not so unlike the situation that exists in these other settler-colonial states that are no longer criticized because of their treatment of the natives. Once the native population becomes so demoralized, humiliated, and defeated, Israel can then govern the whole of Palestine as part of an apartheid one-state solution.

This kind of Israeli endgame was set forth in the Trump-Kushner so-called peace proposals, which incorporated the persistent advocacy of Daniel Pipes who is one of the prominent Zionist militant intellectuals who had been developing an argument for an Israeli victory scenario during the past several years on his website Middle East Forum: diplomacy had been attempted in relation to the conflict and failed to reach agreement. In light of this, the only way for this conflict to end if diplomacy fails is to allow one side to win and the other side to lose. The challenge to Israel, according to Pipes, is to make the Palestinians accept the reality that their struggle had become a lost cause. Pipes urged Israel to increase its coercion so as to convince the Palestinians of the futility of their further resistance. Of course, the Great March of Return was defying that defeatist attitude. That Pipes approach is adopted, in my view, in the extremely one-sided proposals contained in this Trump-Kushner plan endorsed by both Gantz and Netanyahu who together represent the large majority of Israeli public opinion. One of the things that has happened over the course of this prolonged struggle is that Israeli internal politics have move steadily to the right. By “to the right,” I mean embracing the maximal Zionist vision to a solution is more or less uncontested in Israel, although there are ambiguities, including an Israeli majority that still favours a two-state solution if it were viable. This move toward a victory scenario amounts to an annexationist approach to the West Bank, which has been, from an international law and United Nations perspective, occupied territory. Over the years, especially Area C that is 60% of the West Bank, has been treated more and more as de facto Israel. Again annexation has been given, more or less, a green light by the Trump presidency. Although such encouragement by Washington has no legal status, it exerts a political influence that reinforces Israeli expansionism.

I think, the Israeli leadership, the Likud leadership, and even the Blue and White opposition to the Likud, see the Trump presidency as a time-limited opportunity to complete the Zionist Project by proclaiming that the conflict is over. Some Palestinian communities will be somewhat self-governing, a policy comparable to what South African tried to do in the last phases of South African apartheid. Israel, facing different conditions, has shaped its own form of apartheid. It is helpful to recall that in South Africa a minority elite created structures of racial domination to subjugate the large majority African population. One can learn, in several ways, from this earlier apartheid experience, particularly the connection between dismantling apartheid and achieving racial peace. South Africa only moved toward ending the struggle when it decided to release Nelson Mandela from prison as a symbolic step toward the dismantling apartheid. Without that dismantling, that struggle would still be happening. That’s my central point with respect to Israel: If Israel wants peace, then it must get rid of apartheid. There’s no other way for these two peoples to live together in some coexisting and peaceful manner.

Jacobsen: The last two points were the Golan Heights and Area C of the West Bank. Any points for the audience there?

Falk: I think, the Golan Heights and Area C are part of the expansionist vision of the Zionist Project. Israel feels it is now strong enough that can incorporate these territories into its state control in ways that will bring it to some kind of new reality. In other words, the Golan Heights has already been annexed with the explicit approval of the Trump presidency, which is appropriating Syrian territory going against the basic rules of post-1945 international law: no territory can be acquired by uses of force. As for the West Bank, specifically Area C, as I said earlier, is part of the Zionist sense of biblical entitlement. This was part of the Promised Land. Israel feels that it’s entitled to include within its sovereign domain. In this sense, I think, religion as fused with cultural traditions has been relevant to the modern Jewish political sensibility, including even the secular political class. Jews worldwide generally assume that respecting their religious and cultural roots should take precedence over Palestinian claims based on law, secularism, and modernity. So, it is an odd thing. On the one side, Israel is claiming to bring the benefits of modernity to Palestinians and the Arab population. If only the inhabitant would accept benevolent Israeli governance, they would benefit from this Europeanized way of organizing social and economic life. At the same time, Israel’s claims ultimately rest on this pre-modern idea that they, on the basis their religious and cultural tradition, have a superior claim to consider the land their homeland to that of the people living there. That’s the radical nature of the Zionist claim. In effect, the Jewish diaspora deserves precedence over the claims of the native population, the resident population, when it comes to delimiting national homelands. In that way, the period before World War II, the Zionists turned against their original colonial sponsors, the British, and succeeded in making the British regard Palestine ungovernable. Zionism then claimed to be an anti-colonialist movement of the Jewish nation. When you read the influential Exodus narrative that glamorized Zionism and erased the Palestinian you understand the process better by which fiction became fact. The Zionist Project succeeded in appropriating the anti-colonial ethos as the core event of their emancipatory history while persuading much of the world to overloo the cruelty of the Nakba and the displacement of the Palestinians.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Professor Falk.

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Ask Mandisa 53 – Decade in Review

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/04/24

Mandisa Thomas, a native of New York City, is the founder and President of Black Nonbelievers, Inc. Although never formally indoctrinated into belief, Mandisa was heavily exposed to Christianity, Black Nationalism, and Islam. As a child she loved reading, and enjoyed various tales of Gods from different cultures, including Greek and Ghanaian. “Through reading these stories and being taught about other cultures at an early age, I quickly noticed that there were similarities and differences between those deities and the God of the Christian Bible. I couldn’t help but wonder what made this God so special that he warrants such prevalence today,” she recalls.

Mandisa has many media appearances to her credit, including CBS Sunday MorningCNN.com, and Playboy, The Humanist, and JET magazines. She has been a guest on podcasts such as The Humanist Hour and Ask an Atheist, as well as the documentaries Contradiction and My Week in Atheism. Mandisa currently serves on the Board for American Atheists and the American Humanist Association, and previously for Foundation Beyond Belief, the 2016 Reason Rally Coalition, and the Secular Coalition for America. She is also an active speaker and has presented at conferences/conventions for the Freedom from Religion Foundation, Secular Student Alliance, and many others.

In 2019, Mandisa was the recipient of the Secular Student Alliance’s Backbone Award and named the Freedom from Religion Foundation’s Freethought Heroine. She was also the Unitarian Universalist Humanist Association’s Person of the Year 2018.

As the president of Black Nonbelievers, Inc., Mandisa encourages more Blacks to come out and stand strong with their nonbelief in the face of such strong religious overtones.

“The more we make our presence known, the better our chances of working together to turn around some of the disparities we face. We are NOT alone.”

Here, we talk about the decade in review.

*Interview conducted in early 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, this is ambiguous because this is a little bit after because we’re working through a lot of material. But this is the Decade in Review or the 10-year review of Black Nonbelievers Inc. Let’s do some highlights, what have been those developments and successes of Black Nonbelievers Inc. over the last almost decade, from 2011 to 2019 end?

Mandisa Thomas: I remember my youngest son, Miles, was still an infant. He was about nine months old. my other children were much younger. I was completing the first year of my job. I completed it. I was successful in reducing the overtime that was a problem at the job.

I remember my boss at the time saying that; I was able to accomplish something that the other managers before me couldn’t. I remember during that time. I wasn’t a believer, but I was still spiritual if you will. But I simply remember within that decade, from 2009 to 2010 onwards; it was when I simply started strengthening my non-belief and my descent with religion.

That was in 2010. I formally identified or re-identified as an atheist in 2010, in the end, Christmas Day. It was within that time that my atheism was reaffirmed. My desire to become more involved with the secular movement increased. When I discovered that there was work that was still needed, regarding the black community and atheism, that was when the Black Nonbelievers was born. Our official 10-year anniversary will be in 2021.

But within this decade, the 2010s, I think we’ve accomplished a lot. I know that in between that time. I have left that job because developing the organization became a full-time responsibility. It was my family as well. Certainly, there are dynamic, better changes. My daughter graduated from college. She is now in Shanghai teaching English as a second language.

So, my youngest son, who was still a baby, Ken. He’s in the 5th grade. He’s competing in the Georgia State Technology competition. My youngest son is now a teenager at 14. It’s simply amazing to see not simply my family grow, and spouse, if you will, but the organization and within the decade how things had turned out.

Jacobsen: What about organizational milestones? What are those been?

Thomas: So for Black Nonbelievers, we started in 2011. We officially became a 501©3 nonprofit organization in 2014 and that’s when we became a member organization of the Secular Coalition for America. So, we started expanding our organization the same year we were founded.

All of our milestone features in the media. We were on CNN twice, CBS Sunday Morning, Humanist Magazine, NPR, National Geographic, Playboy, and many others. Those have been major for us. That’s when we launched our Change of Life Campaign, in which we started sharing the testimony of our members. So, there has been a lot that we’ve done. We’ve expanded the organization now to multiple cities, double digits.

Those are what I consider big milestones for us because of the visibility and, of course, the community building and support have always been important to our mission, has been crucial. In the past few decades, I’m happy that we were able to reach not simply ordinary people, but simply a number of outlets that can become more connected and acquainted with our work.

Jacobsen: Has it been changing some of the conversations within the black community and the United States?

Thomas: I mean, it has. Even in 2009, even before then, I’ve always known folks in the black community to challenge religion. We talked about that, how religion was challenged through black comedy and literature, but over the decade, there is definitely part of this whole conversation surrounding the institution of the church, the black church in particular, how relevant it is to our community and to people’s lives.

There have been more critics over the years and the things that you are more are open, not only to expressing their discontent but to become one understanding and tolerance of atheism. Even if we don’t always agree and they remain believers.

One thing we understand that not all atheists are bad or, as a matter of fact, most of us tend to be good. Even though, there is still a huge negative stigma. There are more people who are getting a better understanding of the opposition. In fact, there are a lot of things that we could probably work on, as opposed to simply being an enemy.

Jacobsen: Have any particular stories stood out of an ordinary American who was part or became a part of Black Nonbelievers who went through a hard time coming out as a non-believer?

Thomas: Yes. One of our featured testimonies was from a member who came from a family that was full of vegans and church leaders. She was molested. It was often like a family secret. She had to keep that silent. She had suicidal thoughts. Of course, we always encourage people in those situations to seek clinical help. But it was finding Black Nonbelievers. That was so validating to her position about the non-existence of God.

That helped to reaffirm and help bring her from that dark place. We always have peer support and support from those who understand and know where they’re coming from. This is hugely important, in addition to clinical help. So, yes, this person has said that we saved their life.

This was what prompted us to launch that campaign because we have heard this from people that it wasn’t simply life-changing or life-saving. To know that we were a part of that world and that process, it confirmed that what we do is needed because simply our presence as non-believers, atheists, etc., can simply be very polarising. They can simply be ostracising.

We want to make sure that we continue to do it. Not simply those who are atheists or those who have faith, but again, for those who are looking for information for those who are questioning and for good engagement with the community.

Jacobsen: How has this been observed and commented on by religious leaders, pastors, ministers, deacons, bishops, etc.?

Thomas: It’s interesting because we haven’t had much push back from many religious leaders. So, I now have a good friend that is a pastor who spoke at our fifth-anniversary celebration in 2015. I do recall when he first reached out and wanted to interview me. I remember being so skeptical, “Why do you want to talk to me if you’re a pastor?”

He has shown himself to be such an ally. Even though, he is still very much a believer and those are the types of connections that we want to maintain and develop. But I will say something about the members of the Congressional Freethought Caucus, which was formed in 2017. I had the opportunity along with other secular leaders to meet with them, probably this year, in February.

When I spoke, I introduced myself and to open for the organization that I was representing. The members were like, “Wow, you have a huge five-minute view.” They understood the challenges that we face within our community, to see us and to see our organization represented like, “Wow. Oh my gosh, I’m so glad you’re here,” because it’s definitely needed.

I would consider that to be one of the most monumental reactions to us. We have religious folks try us. They call us, telling us that we’re wrong and such, but it’s good when we have a representative understand our mission and the work that we do. Because, oftentimes, we need to get push back from within the secular community about liability for Black nonbelievers.

No matter how hard time gets, no matter how they become, we know that we have support because of the visibility and representation supports the advocacy, which has simply all played a huge part in what we do.

Jacobsen: In spite of the name-calling or past traumas that are coming to you, personally, how do you stand tall?

Thomas: There are times that it becomes very, very difficult. There were times when I would feel, with my previous job, that I thought about quitting and simply staying at work because it felt like at the time that job allowed me more stability with my family and travel schedules and such I was able to have some flexibility when I became involved in the movement.

But there are times where I wish I could have simply hung it up because for the people who say they need us, they don’t necessarily support us the way they should. But it is through the steady participation, we’ve been able to get involved in other leadership roles and simply the camaraderie and the friendship and bond that I have formed in this community have simply kept me going.

It’s been engaging people on the ground in person, and knowing what they go through and realizing that seeing those transitions, seeing those changes in folks have simply been inspirational to me. Because of the fact that you don’t know when people are in simply because we don’t see success right away.

Most of the time, human beings, we want things to be spontaneous, we want things to come to us almost immediately and the work comes in where- when you least expect it, the reward. I had to remind me that this isn’t an overnight process, it isn’t an overnight process for people to overcome their beliefs and to leave to those communities behind.

It isn’t an overnight process to get people to understand why supporting us, especially financially, is important. Because I know, I can only speak for myself when I say that this isn’t something that I’m trying to get rich off. Sure, should it get to a point where it can be completely paid for, absolutely, but I know that there is a service that is being provided for the people who need us and that is worth supporting.

I know that we will eventually get there. It has been coming because the more we persevered, the more support we have generated I know we will continue to generate support in the future. that is what keeps me going, in addition to all the people that we have engaged and held in one way or another.

Jacobsen: When 2021 comes around and you’re looking forward from this standpoint, what do you see as most needed for the non-belief community in the United States amongst African Americans in particular or black Americans in general (the diaspora in the United States) who, again, simply it doesn’t take for them?

Thomas: It’s definitely more visibility, more exposure, more opportunities for us to sufficiently engage the communities and folks that we’re trying to reach. This is starting to happen through a number of projects and one of them I mentioned previously, was the project with the National Museum of African American Culture and the fact that we now have institutions that are looking to us because we have provided that visibility and community.

I think that once it is placed on almost this national platform, I think that we will be able to generate the support that we need to sufficiently become that institution that people automatically see or recognized. Not that it isn’t happening now but it will be on a much wider scale and that is what is needed for the future. There is simply no one grand design or one big thing that will happen. It will happen through consistency and maintaining the organization and continuing to do what we do.

Jacobsen: Thank you for your service, Mandisa.

Thomas: Thank you.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Mandisa 52 – 2019 Year in Review

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/04/23

Mandisa Thomas, a native of New York City, is the founder and President of Black Nonbelievers, Inc. Although never formally indoctrinated into belief, Mandisa was heavily exposed to Christianity, Black Nationalism, and Islam. As a child she loved reading, and enjoyed various tales of Gods from different cultures, including Greek and Ghanaian. “Through reading these stories and being taught about other cultures at an early age, I quickly noticed that there were similarities and differences between those deities and the God of the Christian Bible. I couldn’t help but wonder what made this God so special that he warrants such prevalence today,” she recalls.

Mandisa has many media appearances to her credit, including CBS Sunday MorningCNN.com, and Playboy, The Humanist, and JET magazines. She has been a guest on podcasts such as The Humanist Hour and Ask an Atheist, as well as the documentaries Contradiction and My Week in Atheism. Mandisa currently serves on the Board for American Atheists and the American Humanist Association, and previously for Foundation Beyond Belief, the 2016 Reason Rally Coalition, and the Secular Coalition for America. She is also an active speaker and has presented at conferences/conventions for the Freedom from Religion Foundation, Secular Student Alliance, and many others.

In 2019, Mandisa was the recipient of the Secular Student Alliance’s Backbone Award and named the Freedom from Religion Foundation’s Freethought Heroine. She was also the Unitarian Universalist Humanist Association’s Person of the Year 2018.

As the president of Black Nonbelievers, Inc., Mandisa encourages more Blacks to come out and stand strong with their nonbelief in the face of such strong religious overtones.

“The more we make our presence known, the better our chances of working together to turn around some of the disparities we face. We are NOT alone.”

Here, we talk about the year of 2019 in review.

*Interview conducted in early 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, Mandisa Thomas round-up for 2019. What are some of the highlights? What are some fun things that happened?

Mandisa Thomas: Yes, 2019 has been an amazing whirlwind of a year. In January, I wrote an article for a Black digital travel magazine called Griots Republic. This was for their “faith exploration” issue, and I wrote about Black Nonbelievers as an organization. Our beginnings, what we do, why we do it and the events that we have coming up. I also wrote my first ever grant proposal for the Soros Foundation along with the help of some of our members who are more skilled in that area. One of our members from BN’s Atlanta affiliate will be featured in a production with the Smithsonian Museum and the Museum of African American Culture. It’s their six-part series called “god-Talk,” which will eventually be turned into a documentary. It focuses on religious perspectives in the Black community – millennials in particular. And we were contacted for an atheist/nonreligious representative.

That was just the beginning. In February, I had the opportunity to meet with some of the researchers at Pew. They’re crafting a new study on religion in African American life. They wanted to speak with me and others from the organization about questions and other areas that they could consider adding in order to generate more participation from black atheists, agnostics, non-religious, etc.

From there, there’s just been a slew of speaking engagements. I’ve travelled pretty much all over the country this year with my last appearance in the Phoenix, Arizona area. And among the events was the first ever Women of Color Beyond Belief conference that was produced by BN, Black Skeptics Los Angeles, and the Women’s Leadership Project. In November, we finished our third annual cruise – complete with a new title, and aboard a new ship. That among other things, has just made it an amazing year. There were some the first time visits too – the cities of Phoenix (as mentioned earlier), New Orleans and Pittsburgh.   I tend to document my travels on social media, and this year has been confirmation why I resigned from my full-time job the year before. The number of places I’ve “checked” into are almost exhausting, lol!!! Also, before I forget, I also received two awards this year: the Backbone Award from the Secular Student Alliance and the Freethought Heroine Award from the Freedom From Religion Foundation.

So, it has also been a year of recognition. As I’ve said before, it seems weird that I would even receive awards, and it almost seems unbelievable that the work is being recognized in such a way, but again, I’m glad it is.

Jacobsen: How does that make you feel?

Thomas: Now, I know that what I’m doing is important. It’s work that I’ve come to love, growing the black atheist demographic in particular and community in general. It’s showing our growth of the organization. We launched our Columbus, OH, and New Orleans affiliate this year. It’s a challenging process, and we carefully vet new organizers. They don’t have to be as dedicated as me, but at least committed to staying involved. That’s the best way we make sure that we reach the people efficiently. I tend to suffer from Imposter Syndrome quite a bit. If you aren’t familiar with the term, it’s a fear that people will find out that you’re a fraud or you’re not really doing as much work as you say you are. It tends to be common among folks who actually are doing a lot of work, but feel like we’re still not doing much at all. So while I KNOW there are a lot of great things going on, that I know I’m doing great work, and that the accolades are deserved – the syndrome makes things weird. 

Jacobsen: What criteria should be used when recognizing others for their activism, or for the community organizing, or for their written popular or academic works for secular communities?

Thomas: So, I know that we’ve discussed this previously. I tend to look at a person’s ability to communicate – whether it’s punctual, reciprocal, and if it’s considerate of all aspects and people who are involved.

Also, for certain types of activism – church and state separation for example – front line for protesting or picketing and such, tends to get a lot of recognition. There’s also lots of credit given to speakers with academic credentials, and perhaps a body of literary work under their belt. But how people are treated on the back end is a HUGE factor for me. I could care less about what you have written and what you say in the public realm. If you treat people badly privately, in my eyes, that negates all of your public work.

I think this is also how leaders and organizers should communicate and work together. If we are actually practicing what we preach, and putting their money where their mouths are, this is a very important piece to what we do. Because much of the organizing work tends to go uncredited, especially for women in the movement. This speaks to values, and how you develop teamwork. It doesn’t mean that it’s going to be perfect, but as long as you’ve done your part, then that speaks to your ability to build that community and the support and the visibility that people need.

Jacobsen: What about your final thoughts for 2019? The wrap-up.

Thomas: 2019 is when I completely went into activist mode. I am definitely now full-time. It has been a test of my skills, as well as my ability to remain as level headed as possible. That part can be challenging, and having been involved in a number of projects this year, it takes a lot of multitasking. It has taken a lot of re-evaluation, and reflection on what I need to prioritize. This year has definitely pushed the boundaries of my organizing abilities, and what I can do for the future. Now, that we have certain things in place at the organization, we can focus on improvement in other areas. So while it has been daunting at times, I am proud to say that we have the foundation to keep moving forward.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Mandisa.

Thomas: Thank you.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Interview with Abdulrahman Aliyu on Nigerian Humanism Now

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/04/22

Abdulrahman Aliyu is a Nigerian Humanist and Freethinker involved in the community and movement in Nigeria.

Here we talk about Nigerian humanism now.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Nigeria is the most populous country in Africa. It is one of the most populated nations on earth. Its politics impact the rest of Africa and set a mark for the progress or regress for all of Africa. Many in the African diaspora, I would assume, look at the marvel at the developments in much of post-colonial (Arab-Muslim and European-Christian) Africa while in horror at some of the facets of their culture. It’s mixed. What do you, as a humanist, find are the best things about Nigeria?

Abdulrahman Aliyu: Yes, you are right, Nigeria could be the most vital country in Africa in terms of impacting either a progressive Africa or regressive one. In other words, if Nigeria prospers, we do so along with our brothers and sisters across the continent. As a humanist, I find that the best things about Nigeria are our diversity and the potential we hold in all the various spectra of life. So, we can explore those potentials to challenge wrong ideas such as dogma and superstition and campaign for good ones like humanism.

In summary, the best thing about Nigeria is that there is lots of untapped potential that we are attempting to bring out with our campaign for humanism. I strongly believe this will make us a more compassionate, tolerant, and prosperous society.

Jacobsen: What are the worst things about Nigeria as a humanist?

Aliyu: As a humanist, I must say it’s quite unfortunate and very frustrating that one cannot challenge or critique dogmatic beliefs that are clearly anti-human without watching one’s back. Imagine, as a humanist one has to be subtle in condemning ills and notions that are clearly against humans like child marriage, genital mutilation, sex slavery, and the oppression of women. Clearly, Nigeria is a deeply religious culture, so when one says that religion promotes anti-human ideals; one is expected to respect the boundaries of that religion. Well, in my view, we ought not be soft on bad ideas that are clearly anti-human. We have to devise ways and strategies to combat ideas that are anti-human. But we must do so in ways that do not endanger our lives. In other words, we must do so carefully.         

Jacobsen: What are your thoughts on the “leaving things to God” attitude of many Nigerians in the midst of coronavirus pandemic?

Aliyu: God should be left out of issues that are clearly medical in nature. God might be real and alive for many but not in our medical or science labs. There simply no evidence of God’s presence in the way nature works. God, in my opinion, is a thing of faith. And right now, we need to listen to medical expert’s advice, not some pastor or imam. Leaving things to God is very destructive, I strongly advise against it, especially in the midst of the coronavirus pandemic.

Jacobsen: What would be a contextually appropriate Nigerian humanist response to this pandemic given the culture, the resources, the peoples, and the politico-social environment?

Aliyu: Campaign. Campaign. Campaign. We need to inform our neighbours and countrymen in general about the coronavirus. And we have to recognize the fact that religion is crippling the campaign against the virus, hence the need to find ways to bring religious leaders into the fold.

Jacobsen: In your (recent) essay on coronavirus and the pandemic, you noted the reactions of the communities in Nigeria closing down or calling to close down churches, temples, mosques, and the like. How are these measures important for the prevention of the spread of the virus? What has happened in some documented reportage?

Aliyu: These measures are very important. We cannot afford to let mass gatherings continue while we are facing a huge public health crisis. Since the virus cannot travel alone, it needs us to spread the disease. Simply abiding by medical advice is the only way forward, and right now, closing mass gatherings and maintaining social distancing are critical in controlling the spread of the disease. The sad thing about what is really happening here is that some authorities are clearly not following the medical advice, such as the wearing of face masks, avoiding public gatherings, and maintaining social distancing. As for documented reportage, we have seen reports on how churches and mosques are ignoring the authorities by gathering in their respective worship centres. Also, lots of people are gathering to worship at resident’s houses, especially in the northern part of the country.

Jacobsen: Dr. Leo Igwe has been studying and working on witchcraft in Nigeria. How have his efforts been important in the advancement of human rights, scientific skepticism, and the protection of the vulnerable, i.e., elderly women targeted for illegitimate accusations or allegations of witchcraft (because witchcraft in the sense of the supernatural does not exist at all, at all)?

Aliyu: Yes, of course witchcraft holds no supernatural powers. But sadly, many here in Nigeria believe in it and become the targets of exploitation because of their belief. I respect Dr. Igwe for doing a wonderful job in that regard. I think we need so many more like him in Nigeria to help in that battle.

Jacobsen: Which politicians have been most helpful in the advancement of secular and humanist values in Nigeria?

Aliyu: I’m not sure about the politicians. But there are definitely some brilliant Nigerians who have contributed immensely to secular and humanist values, to the movement. People like; Wole Soyinka, Femi Falana, Professor Attahiru Jega, and many more.

Jacobsen: I like Falz, the Nigerian artist. I like the social commentary in his music— frank, direct, and compelling. As he notes, many Nigerians, many people in general, can be carried away with entertainment and not be conscious enough of the political message. What importance do some Nigerian artists place upon making people more conscious of the serious issues facing Nigerians in the political and social spheres? He expands the controversial and social commentary to Africa as a whole, especially when he stresses the importance of needing to vote and how young people can help change the social, political, and economic context for many Nigerians by voting. Many of the problems facing Nigerians are issues facing Africans in general.

Aliyu: Artists are crucial in raising consciousness regarding serious issues. That’s right, I like Falz too, we need many more of his like in Africa. Yes, we have many who are also addressing serious social issues.

Jacobsen: As a humanist, how are you coping in Nigeria in the midst of the pandemic?

Aliyu: It’s been very difficult. It’s hard to cope here, most people don’t seem to believe in the truth of the pandemic. Sometimes I find it frustrating attempting to rebut the various conspiracy theories about coronavirus being a political disease and not an actual one. Can you imagine? How deluded can one be?

Jacobsen: Is the humanist community becoming stronger in weaker recently, what is the progress report in general?

Aliyu: Let me tell you something. The campaign for humanism may not be moving as fast as we would like, but it is definitely growing day by day.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Extensive Interview with Dr. Jon Cleland Host – Managing Editor, Humanistic Paganism

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/04/21

Dr. Jon Cleland Host is a scientist who earned his Ph.D. in materials science at Northwestern University & has conducted research at Hemlock Semiconductor and Dow Corning since 1997. He holds eight patents and has authored over three dozen internal scientific papers and eleven papers for peer-reviewed scientific journals, including the journal Nature. He has taught classes on biology, math, chemistry, physics and general science at Delta College and Saginaw Valley State University. Jon grew up near Pontiac, and has been building a reality-based spirituality for over 30 years, first as a Catholic and now as a Unitarian Universalist, including collaborating with Michael Dowd and Connie Barlow to spread the awe and wonder of the Great Story of our Universe (see www.thegreatstory.org, and the blog at evolutionarytimes.org). Jon and his wife have four sons, whom they embrace within a Universe-centered, Pagan, family spirituality. He currently moderates the yahoo group Naturalistic Paganism and posts videos on his YouTube Channel. Jon is also a regular columnist at HP. His column is called Starstuff, Contemplating.

Here we talk about his views, projects, and life, and extensively about Naturalistic Paganism and Humanistic Paganism.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: You host a super-minority and intriguing view within the Humanist community, internationally. I haven’t seen much like it. So, I wanted to get the view out there, as another consideration. Often, there can be grazing the orbit of this manner of looking at the world in some popularizations of agnosticism, Humanism, and science, in à la carte manner. For example, the late Carl Sagan and Sagan’s intellectual descendant, Neil deGrasse Tyson (Frederick P. Rose Director of the Hayden Planetarium at the American Museum of Natural History), speak of the awe, majesty, power, and wonder of nature qua nature for them. This amounts to the sensibility without the formal personal identification and philosophical affirmation of Naturalism and Paganism, i.e., Naturalistic Paganism, where Tyson, for example, mightily identifies as an agnostic based on the not-knowing of certain things, trained as an astrophysicist, earned Humanist awards, gets coverage in the Humanist press, while never identifying as a Naturalistic Pagan or a Humanistic Pagan. Something like an Agnostic-Humanist with Pagan sensibilities. Let’s define some terms. What is paganism in this context? 

Dr. Jon Cleland Host: I’m glad that the term “Paganism” has evolved from its earlier use as a derogatory term applied by Christians to non-Christians (those out in the “country” – “paganus” in Latin) to a more accepting use now. Today, “Pagan” is an umbrella term encompassing many different spiritual paths. I think that the international Pagan Federation’s definition of “Pagan” is helpful:

“Pagan: A polytheistic or pantheistic nature-worshipping religion.

Source: https://www.paganfederation.org/what-is-paganism/.

This includes a huge range of Pagan paths, including the Goddess worshipping Wiccan, the Atheist who knows how she is enmeshed in our vast web of life, the Odin worshipping Asatru, the follower of Bast, and so many more. Much of the reason for our diversity of belief is our rejection of the Christian idea of eternal torture for having the wrong beliefs. Because Pagans don’t expect anyone to be tortured for having different beliefs, it’s much more common (though not universal) for Pagans of different beliefs to accept each other. Our diversity gives us strength.

What’s most important, and what unites us Pagans, is that we Pagans explicitly celebrate our world, our Universe. We openly embrace the wonder, joy and awe we feel from being connected to, indeed being part of, our natural world. We don’t need an excuse or a reason, we feel the deep power of the atoms and cycles of which connect us. There is no embarrassment, and we don’t care if society doesn’t like it. Paganism gives us permission to dance under a waterfall, to be overwhelmed by a starry sky, to be in love with our world. We proudly proclaim that this is one F**ing awesome universe, to the point of worship, and if someone thinks that we shouldn’t say that, and that we should be worshipping only their imaginary sky daddy instead, then they can go jump in a (wonderful, awesome) lake.

Jacobsen: What is Humanism in this context?

Host: Humanism is an ethical approach to life that is based on reason, naturalism and making the best of this one life we know we have, for ourselves and for everyone. Though originally focused on humanity, Humanists today include our whole Earth, our whole web of life, recognizing that we are not separate from the web of life, so we can’t have a flourishing humanity without a flourishing web of life. Humanists want to help build a just, healthy and sustainable world for everyone, and know that decisions based on reality and focused on this world are the best way to do that. I love the Humanist community. We do a lot of good. But I’ve found that Humanist based celebrations and rituals feel stilted at best. It’s really hard for us rational people to let go of the analysis and live in the moment – more on that below.

Jacobsen: What is naturalism in this context?

Host: By “Naturalism”, we are referring to philosophical naturalism – the belief that the universe is governed by natural laws, and that there aren’t any disembodied spirits, ghosts, deities, magic, or other supernatural. This is not a claim or assumption, but is rather a conclusion – the result of simply trying to be unbiased. Why do I say that?

Well, consider the opposite. Imagine that I was to say that supernatural things are real. Well, how would I support that? Perhaps by pointing to sacred scripture, such as, say, the Amitabha Sutra. But if I accept the Amitabha Sutra as describing reality, then that means that I have to reject other sacred scripture (say, the Pearl of Great Price), because they contradict each other. In fact, the same thing happens with any supernatural belief source. Oh, I talked firsthand with a person who had a personal vision of the supernatural? But then why would I accept that over another person’s personal revelation, which contradicts it?

Should I believe one over the other simply because I randomly happened to meet one person and not the other? OK, how about I apply some critical thinking to the other revelation? I would soon find that the other revelation is not supported by the evidence. So does that mean I should just believe the first person’s revelation – hook, line and sinker? Of course, that’s not being fair. And as soon as I apply the same critical testing to the revelation from the first person, I see that it also is unsupported by the evidence. In fact, realizing that people “remember” things that didn’t happen (big topic – look it up), or that humans can and do hallucinate (with or without the aid of drugs), and that literally thousands of people have described supernatural revelations, shows that even if I myself remember having a revelation, that it too might not survive a look at the evidence. If a revelation does survive a look at the evidence, then I can just go by the evidence and then I don’t need the revelation anyway. In fact, if I accept my own memory of a revelation as a way to know what’s true, then what possible basis could I have for rejecting someone’s revelation telling them to kill people in a terrorist attack?

Additional examples of supernatural beliefs are all around us – in religions and pop culture. Looking at any of them shows pretty quickly that people believe in supernatural things for often random or emotional reasons, such as which country they happened to be born in, or what their parents believed, or who one’s friends are. If we are to fairly look at beliefs, then it’s hard to avoid a conclusion of naturalism (as explained above). Perhaps the clearest evidence for this the fact that we naturalists can say to nearly everyone (to Muslims, Asatru, Christians, Hindus, etc) that “you already believe in practically everything that we believe in”. Nearly everyone already believes in things like atoms, like gravity, sound, rockets, cooking, animals, and so on. The things that everyone agrees are real are very likely real – because the overwhelming evidence is why there is nearly universal agreement on their reality. For us naturalists, those are our beliefs (more at https://humanisticpaganism.com/religious-naturalism/). For me at least, my naturalism gives me profound meaning and purpose (link https://humanisticpaganism.com/2014/03/12/starstuff-contemplating-by-jon-cleland-host-a-naturalistic-credo/).

This means that naturalism is not an arbitrary choice among equals, and is certainly not dogmatically believing what one is told. The demographic patterns, the evidential justification, the robustness to testing, and so much more show that we naturalists are not picking naturalism willy-nilly from a menu of equally likely worldviews, listed after, say, “Catholicism, Zoroastrianism, …” and just before “Jainism, Crystal Healing, Judaism, etc.”. Unlike the others, naturalism is the only path which says that because our world is what is important, and because real understanding is most likely to give the best results, finding the most likely truth is more important than following tradition, obeying dogma or believing things for arbitrary reasons. Instead, naturalism means that we look at the evidence, form hypotheses, test them, revise them based on the evidence, and repeat. It means that we look at the tested and predictive consensus of the experts in areas we can’t test ourselves, and it means that all conclusions are tentative, getting us closer to the likely truth.

Because believing wrong things leads to taking wrong actions, and because taking wrong actions hurts real people (others, ourselves and/or future generations), naturalism seems to me to be the only ethical approach to knowledge. There are, of course, a wide range of consequences to different beliefs. I’m certainly not saying that all non-naturalistic belief systems are horrible. It’s quite clear that the Judaism of Anne Frank makes the world a better place compared to the religious belief system of the KKK. Also, all of us have been influenced by our life history, and I’m grateful for being brought to the point where I could choose to test my beliefs against the evidence (many people never get that opportunity). I’d like to think that believing things based only on evidence is simply a matter of self-respect and respect for everyone, but, of course, our life histories are more complicated than that.

Jacobsen: Following the last three questions, what knits these together in two sets of two as either Humanistic Paganism or Naturalistic Paganism?

Host: Naturalism brings hard-headed scrutiny of the evidence. While not always fun (like most humans, none of us enjoy the slow realization that one of our beliefs is likely wrong), it gives us the wonderful gift of being wrong a little less often. Like other forms of honesty, it is overall a small price to pay for the benefits to us and our world. Naturalism means that we are a little more likely to have the positive effect on the world we intend, and by at least trying to use critical thinking in every area of our lives, we are a little more likely to avoid the lies, and resulting harm, from a demagogue.

But there is another huge benefit – one that is perhaps a surprise to some. At least for me – and I’ve heard this from other too – naturalism brings an amazement, an awestruck wonder, to our lives. To see the marvels all around us, and especially to learn about the workings of each through the incredible wealth of information we now have though science, fills me with a joyous astonishment. It’s impossible to describe. I’ve tried to do so in a post (https://humanisticpaganism.com/2014/06/11/starstuff-contemplating-by-jon-cleland-host-the-wonder-amplifier/). Simply put, learning more about the scientific details of every aspect of our Universe makes them each all the more rapturous. At first, I really wasn’t sure this would continue – but it never stops. Every year I learn more and find more incredible things, and they seem to feed on each other, maybe squaring the wonder over and over as I learn more. Even after a half-century of life, there is no end in sight. I’m especially grateful to Carl Sagan for helping open this door for me.

This joy could be trapped inside. But it’s not. Raising kids helps – kids, like Pagans, don’t need permission to revel in the joy of a waterfall, forest ridge or science experiment, and neither does their Dad! Paganism also provides a life-changing, a life-giving, outlet for this joy given by our universe. The rituals, the daily practices and especially the recognition that our real universe is deeply, powerfully sacred, are things that enrich my life.

Naturalism and Paganism are knitted together in my life with the universe supplying a deep well of inspiration, and Paganism providing the tools that help me live this inspiration, to drink it in and weave it into my life. Together, they are so much more than either could be alone.

Jacobsen: How did you enter the world as a Catholic (imposed) and come to the point of Unitarian Universalism, Humanistic Paganism, and Naturalistic Paganism?

Host: My own history starts out with the very common story of one leaving Catholicism. I was raised Catholic, and unlike some, was still solidly Catholic in my teens. But then I started to see contradictions. Logical problems, like “if God is just, why are non-Catholics sent to Hell, if they are raised in another religion?” etc. I even booked a time with a priest to discuss them. I thought that since the Catholic church had been around for well over 1,000 years, with tons of top-notch scholars, these silly questions must have been figured out many centuries ago. The priest offered trite sayings that didn’t answer the questions. It began to dawn on me that there the “answers” *didn’t exist*! Such a huge shift takes time, and it was years before I could look at things based mostly on evidence instead of how I had been taught to see things. Looking at the evidence, it became clear that the traditional religions had grown from real needs, and been invented by people, partially to gain power over others. I also realized that many religions have been, and continue to be, harmful in many ways, including fighting against women’s rights, the abolition of slavery, LGBT rights, scientific advancement, and evidence-based problem-solving. I became the stereotypical Atheist, eschewing all religious observations because they weren’t based in reality. I found this to be too empty. I’m human – I need emotional connection, colour, vibrancy. I realized that humans for well over five thousand years, and probably much more, have been finding deep significance in the yearly cycle of the Sun, and especially the sunrise moment of the Winter Solstice. So I started a simple practice – watching the sunrise on the Winter Solstice. I found that it is invigorating to be celebrating, noticing, and being deeply moved by, this one moment in time when our Ancestors stood in fear and hope, and when we, with understanding given by science, can stand in confidence that the Sun will return. These powerful moments gained strength every year, connecting me to billions of lives of people who, like me, strove to attach meaning to the best and most reliable understanding out of the world around us.

I met my wife around that time, and with that powerful connection growing every year, it was only natural for us to add the Summer Solstice. The others were added over time, until we’re celebrating the Wheel of the Year. We realized how moving, how awe-inspiring, we found this approach to be – drawing on the grand Universe as revealed to us by science, and celebrating that connection with the Wheel of the Year and other Pagan metaphors. We discussed a lot of names, and settled on Naturalistic Paganism because it both described what we were (instead of what we were not, as in the term “Atheist”), while also being clear (“naturalism” has a clear philosophical definition – “no supernatural”). That was 2003. We started a webpage (Naturalpagans.org), and a yahoo group followed (Naturalistic Paganism). Later (2011), B. T. Newberg created the Humanistic Paganism website (having arrived at the same idea independently). B.T. explains this history and the longer-term history of Naturalistic Paganism in this post. https://humanisticpaganism.com/2015/06/09/exploring-the-historical-roots-of-naturalistic-paganism-by-b-t-newberg/ I joined the team around 2015, and it has been wonderful seeing this (and other) forms of Naturalistic Paganism continue to grow (such as Atheopaganism, see below).

Throughout all of this, It’s been wonderful to connect with other Pagans in the wider Pagan community, and join in many different rituals and celebrations. It can be a tricky balance at times between my own hard-nosed naturalism/atheism and the prevalence of pseudoscience/woo in the wider Pagan community. I sometimes have to remind myself to consider if a supernatural belief is very harmful or not, but overall it’s been great to simply enjoy a ritual with others, even if we personally think of the language used differently – such as if many others see a deity as literal and I see a metaphor. After all, no one thinks anyone is going to hell for being a heretic.

Jacobsen: How does materials science training help with developing a clearer picture of the world rather than one clouded by mystery assuming a form of non-technical operations to the world? I separate this form of mystery from an empirical mystery point of view standard in all or most great scientists, or the epithet used against some others as in “the New Mysterians.”

Host: The most important part of my Materials Science background has been learning critical thinking and logical skills, which are universal to the sciences and needed for avoiding common errors in thinking. These include treating evidence as more reliable than tradition, testing hypotheses (and especially being able to change one’s view if unsupported), looking for logical fallacies, and so on. A good overview of these can be seen in Carl Sagan’s “Baloney detection kit”.

Being aware of the most often abused ways to deceive people is especially important. There are too many to go into here, but one that I’ve seen a lot of, especially today, is when a single case is used to make a point, often hiding the real picture. For instance, a shared video of a single mild case of Covid-19 used to say that the whole pandemic isn’t a concern, or the voice of a black Trump supporter shown to suggest that most black people support Trump, or the case of someone who prayed and then their cancer went into remission, etc. An understanding of large and small numbers allows one to see how we are fooled and make responsible choices.

Though I personally learned these guidelines of clear thinking through science, they are much more universal than that. Nearly all of us need this to be beneficial to those around us, to ourselves, to wider society, and to future generations. These aren’t “just for scientists”. All of us make choices about our own medical care, our own lifestyle, our own votes for our leaders, our environment, how we teach the kids in our lives, etc. Clear thinking is essential for all of those and so much more.

These are at least as important today as ever. With a US president who routinely lies, pseudoscience appearing online and on the TV, and a rise in evidence denials such as the anti-vaxxer and flat-earth movements, our world needs clear thinking to reduce the damage around us.

Jacobsen: How have the working relationships with Michael Dowd and Connie Barlow developed into the present? Any particular fun and funny stories to share in the midst of collaboration?

Host: Sure! Once, we were recording an interview and suddenly Connie stopped Michael in mid-sentence. She said “wait, there – look! There’s a bald eagle going for fish on the lake!”. We turned and sure enough, there was an eagle who had swooped down to the lake surface and was working to regain altitude. We couldn’t tell if the eagle had a fish or not. Connie quipped “Yeah, life is tough not havin’ a home!” (they don’t have a permanent house, but rather are constantly travelling to different speaking engagements). We were recording the interview rather quickly before the rest of my family arrived, after which it would have been difficult due to my four rambunctious kids.

You can hear this interview (including the eagle part) here. It’s great for those of us interested in a naturalistic lifestyle. http://inspiringnaturalism.libsyn.com/4b_jon_cleland_host_it_s_all_really_there.

(the other interview recorded that day is also relevant for a naturalistic lifestyle) http://inspiringnaturalism.libsyn.com/4a_jon_cleland_host_inspiring_naturalism_for_families.

Jacobsen: You have 4 children. Can you clarify, please? What is “Universe-centered, Pagan, family spirituality”?

Host: Yes, let’s break that down.

“Universe-centered” – Focused on this real world, not on some imaginary afterlife, or any other supernatural idea. While this seems like a minor point (“why not live this life while imagining a possible heaven?”), it turns out that it’s a huge shift. If we are focused on this world, then we work to make this world better, instead of treating this world as unimportant, as one might do if they thought there were going to another world in a few short decades. If we are focused on this world, we work to make everyone’s life better, instead of trying to please this or that imaginary space ghost.

Pagan: We Pagans celebrate our Earth, its cycles, its seasons, and our universe. We do so often using the Wheel of the Year, the four directions, and Pagan metaphors, often in the Pagan community. The many practices we do have become a fulfilling part of my life, and covering all of them would be a book in itself. Here are some of them.

The Wheel of the Year: The Wheel of the Year is simply the calendar year mapped onto a circle, with 8 holidays. These are the Solstices, Equinoxes, Thermstices, and Equitherms (the peaks and midpoints of the yearly cycle of light and warmth). These are described in detail here, along with the specific celebrations we hold in our family. (https://humanisticpaganism.com/2015/03/09/starstuff-contemplating-our-powerful-sabbats-by-john-and-heather-cleland-host). We hold many of these in our stone circle – a place the has stones for the directions (the four cardinal points plus the directions halfway between them). Over time, repeatedly using this place as sacred has helped make it a special place for us all.

Ritual: We usually attend or hold a ritual for each holiday and at other times. These vary over a huge range. As humans, we feel more group energy with more people – at least more than just a single person, and over 10 is even better. Most of these are with a few other Pagan families, and are often simple enough to include the kids. Pagan rituals often start with casting a circle to designate sacred space, and then calling each direction to connect us to the Earth. Our Ancestors for millennia lived and died depending on knowing the directions, and so there is a reason they touch our hearts. To get a feel for the power and poignancy of Pagan rituals, finding one and attending it is much more effective than any words I can put down here (some rituals are much better than others). But I can give a summary of the most recent large ritual I was at (which had around 200 people, at Convocation in Detroit, February 2020). This was a ritual to honour our Ancestral mothers. In a darkened room lit by candlelight, we formed a (very large!) circle. After a basic start to the ritual, the person leading the ritual led us through a story like a description of our Ancestors, leading back through time, with a melodic, rhythmic, ritual voice. The floor had six large paintings of Ancestral mothers from our past. By this time I felt distinctly out of my day to day life, as if I was in a timeless place. A chant was raised, and with the slow chant, we formed lines, slowly walking past the images, taking time to look at each one and thank them. A mirror gave us each a chance to look at ourselves, seeing who we have become and who these mothers have given us. At the front of the darkened room was a large, dimly lit painting of the Lascaux cave bull painting. We each pressed our hand into a bowl of paint, and put our handprint on the painting, as if we were in Lascaux, 17,000 years ago. The ritual continued with more time for meditation on what we had felt, and steps to bring us back to normal time and a normal state of mind. This was a deeply centring experience – the kind of experience I would not want to be absent from my life. Similarly, even the simple rituals for the eight points of the Wheel of the Year greatly help in feeling connected to our Earth, to feel like I’m not missing watching the seasons pass.

There are a lot more Pagan practices in our family life – many are described in the links.

Family: My kids are the most important aspect of my life, and any spirituality which is completely self-centred is not healthy, so it’s not a surprise that our family is centrally important in my spirituality. As described in the link above (and here https://humanisticpaganism.com/2014/12/14/starstuff-contemplating-by-heather-and-jon-cleland-host-celebrating-meaning-in-our-lives-through-family-holidays/), there are specific, fun ways that we celebrate each holiday with the kids. If you want to find out what is important to someone, asking them is not necessarily the best way to find out. Instead, look at two things: their calendar and their chequebook. Where we put our time and money will show what is important to us – and likely what our effect on future generations will be. Holidays are no different – they teach our kids (and ourselves!) what is important. If holidays are empty consumerism, or worse, “celebrate” things we don’t believe or support, then what do the kids learn from that? This is why we make sure that our holidays teach the kids that we are part of the Earth, that our Universe is awesome, and that having fun is both important and can be done in a reality-based way. For this reason, what we do with the kids is at least, if not more, important than me personally being moved by a ritual. It’s a delicate balance to make our family celebrations honest and real, while still being similar enough to the surrounding culture so that none of this becomes too hard to maintain over many years. For instance, for Yule, we do have gifts and a tree. The gifts are opened on Winter Solstice morning, and the tree is fully reality-based.

Jacobsen: Any upcoming projects to announce for us?

Host: Yes! Though everything is shut down now with the pandemic, when life returns to normal I hope to continue discussions in the Detroit area Pagan community about an outdoor sacred ritual location. One cool thing about Pagan ritual is that we like to hold them outdoors. A ritual at sunrise or under the moonlight, in a forest or clearing, taps into environments that put our brains into a different state due to millions of years of evolution.

Also, a good friend of mine in the Naturalistic Pagan community just started a nontheistic Pagan podcast, called “The Wonder: Science Based Paganism”. The plan is for a podcast every week! Here is the link. https://thewonderpodcast.podbean.com/.

Jacobsen: Any recommended, authors, organizations, or speakers?

Host: For the wonder of Naturalism, I highly recommend the original Cosmos Series by Carl Sagan. It’s on Netflix and other outlets. Even after decades, the only thing out of date is Dr. Sagan’s turtleneck sweater. The recent second Cosmos Series by Neil DeGrasse-Tyson is a very close second. These are both perfect for family viewing and discussion except for the youngest kids. For the youngest kids, start them off with the first and second seasons of Scooby Doo (where all supernatural claims turn out to be a fake money making scam), Grandmother Fish (by Jonathan tweet), and walks in the woods.

Though our Naturalistic Pagan community is still small, we are growing, and already have resources out there. I edit the Humanistic Paganism blog (https://humanisticpaganism.com/, also on Facebook), there is a rapidly growing Atheopagan community (https://atheopaganism.wordpress.com/, also on Facebook) which Mark Green started, and two books have also just come out – “Atheopaganism” by Mark Green and “Godless Paganism” Edited by John Halstead. I’m available to speak, as are probably others. I’d also recommend checking out your local Pagan or CUUPS (Covenant of Unitarian Universalist Pagans) group. It’s hit or miss, but many of us are out there, and we are growing every day. There is a reason, after all, that myself, B. T. Newberg, Mark Green, John Halstead, and many others realized this same idea of Naturalistic Paganism independently.

Also, my wife (Heather) and I wrote a book about some of our family practices – specifically about how we celebrate birthdays by atomic number (so a 6th birthday is has a carbon theme – the 6th element, an 8th birthday has an oxygen theme, etc.). The book is “Elemental Birthdays” by Jon and Heather Cleland Host, and it has birthday party plans, science experiments for each birthday, etc. It’s available at (http://www.solstice-and-equinox.com/elementalbirthdays.html).

Jacobsen: Any final feelings or thoughts in conclusion based on the conversation today?

Host: Sure. There is an important concept that I haven’t touched on yet. I’ve explained why naturalism is not just another belief system among all the different superstitions out there, but instead is the simple result of trying to be as least biased as possible when looking at the world. I haven’t explained why Paganism is important, at least to me.

Understanding the literal mountain of evidence from geology, biology, anatomy, cladistics, genetics, and more makes it clear that we have evolved from non-human Ancestors. The evidence shows that our brains have evolved, just as our arms, livers, feet and ears have evolved. We can better understand those organs by looking at their evolutionary history and resulting structure. People often shy away from doing the same with our brains, I think due to the cultural prevalence of philosophical dualism, itself a hangover from Christianity (which is fully dualistic). Dualism is beyond the scope of this interview, but the point is that we can look at our brains the same way we look at any other part of our bodies – in light of the reality of evolution.

Looking at our brains in the light of evolution, we see that they have evolved from the inside out, with primitive, basic functions deepest down, at the brain stem, and subsequent additions on top of that. Of course, this is a model, and is not perfect. Evolution doesn’t make anything perfect, but jury-rigs everything, making connections here and there, and some happen to survive. This gives us a roughly four-part brain, with the deepest part, the brain stem, governing basic survival. This is our Lizard brain, in control of the four “F’s” – Feeding, Fleeing, Fighting, and Mating. The next part out is the mammal brain (the limbic system), which is where our emotions, “gut feelings” and feelings of love, connection, and bonding come from. The biggest part is the neo-cortex, our “monkey mind” or primate brain – able to figure out complex puzzles, handle language, and analyze data. Lastly, in the front, we have the Frontal Lobes – our “higher human”, which can make long term plans, think about the future or even the time long after we die.

We need to feed and satisfy all parts of that brain which we all have (notice that Maslow’s hierarchy is simply the brain structure described above). Religion taps into the needs of the limbic system – the mammal brain which needs community, needs ritual, and needs feelings of purpose and bonding (and hopefully the parts above that too). Religion activates many of our most powerful motivators and response centers, guaranteeing the person’s attention and devotion. This means that humans, with rare exceptions, need a spirituality/religion. Humans will seek one out, and even build one themselves (often only a temporary solution). If a healthy, reality-based, beneficial religion is not available, millions of people will join harmful religions, harming our future world. If we are to have any hope of building a just, healthy, sustainable world for ourselves and future generations, we need to build a spiritual approach that is both reality-based and still includes ritual, symbolism, practices, and community. Carl Sagan recognized this too, when he said:

A religion, old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the Universe as revealed by modern science might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.

Building such a religion is not easy. Building anything like that is a lot of work, and this is even more difficult because many of the most effective survival tools of supernatural religions (thought control, supernatural threats, etc.) are harmful, and so avoiding them is needed, but makes our task harder. Our own evolved brains require the emotion, connection, and feelings of rituals and ceremonies, while at the same time, Humanist rituals and ceremonies are often stilted and uncomfortable (as I alluded to earlier), if they happen at all. That’s a huge topic, which I’ve written a 15,000-word essay on (maybe I should clean it up and publish it as a book?). I won’t be able to cover it well, but here is a summary.

Why and how are Humanist (and any new, reality-based) rituals often stilted and uncomfortable? Two of the main reasons are because they lack emotion, and because they are unfamiliar.

Humanist rituals often lack emotion because we Humanists are often very rational, evidence-based, people who care what is really, literally true. We know that to keep from being fooled (especially by ourselves!), we need to control our emotions and instead use evidence and logic to determine what is most likely real. In addition to this, we see the immense harm of emotional thinking around us every day – from nationalism, racism, devotion to lying leaders, religious wars, quack health “cures”, and so much more – usually preying on the most vulnerable. Emotion is like fire – it’s very useful, and essential to our lives – yet it can be intentionally abused or accidentally released out of control, and in either case, real people suffer. This can make us uncomfortable when we try to harness it in even healthy ways when those are in a context (ritual or ceremony) so similar to the ways it is usually abused. Effective ritual and ceremony draw on the power of our emotions which requires that we mute the rational, analytical parts of our brains. We Humanists don’t easily mute that part of our brain (for good reason).

The other reason might be harder to see. A major part of the power of a ritual or ceremony is the feeling of familiarity and comfort it brings (do you remember the warmth from rituals of your childhood?). It feels safe and familiar because you’ve been doing it over and over for years. But hold on. Humanists don’t have rituals we’ve been doing for years! The familiarity isn’t there, and so you feel “unnatural” and self-conscious instead of comforted and secure. Worse, we can’t do the Christian rituals many of us are familiar with, because they are based on a false and harmful worldview which we don’t want to promote. It’s a catch-22: it takes repetition for the rituals to fully work, but it’s hard to repeat them when they aren’t fully working. With repetition, the rituals eventually begin to fully work, but it’s a big enough barrier (like an activation energy in chemistry) that prevents most people from getting to the other side. This is doubly true for a small group seeking new people, because everything we do will be new to a new person, and hence will not feel as natural as rituals done around longtime friends or family.

Both of these reasons are why rites of passage rituals are so much easier for us Humanists than seasonal or other rituals. With a baby blessing (previously called a baptism), wedding or funeral, the powerful emotions make easy for us to let the emotion take over – so that essential step is accomplished. Similarly, the situation gives us a clear and unquestioned focus (a baby, couple, or deceased loved one), and also provides a lot of familiarities – both from the many dear friends and family often present as well as with known parts to the ritual (such as vows, rings, etc.). It seems that a good path forward for any reality-based religion, whether Humanism or Naturalistic Paganism, is to first hone our ritual skills by celebrating these rites of passage rituals, while slowly adding the repetition and practice needed to get similar power from other rituals. Other components and methods of effective ritual are too big a topic for this interview, but my earlier description of a ritual contains many of them, and you can also learn them both by reading on this topic, and even better – by attending rituals, which is part of why I attend Pagan rituals.

I can’t know if Naturalistic Paganism will be the religion that succeeds in both rituals and overall. However, attempts at Naturalistic Islam or Christianity are chained to the anchor of their vicious, flat-earth “holy” books, as are many other religions. Any religion that rejects naturalism sets us up for the wars of “whose supernatural revelation is right” that have already killed literally dozens of millions of people. I’m sure there are other ways too. We’ll have to see how things go, but I know that for me, Naturalistic Paganism gives me hope for the future, and joy, meaning and purpose for today.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Jon.

Host: Thank you!

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Interview with Wesam Ahmad – Representative, Al-Haq (Independent Palestinian Human Rights Organization)

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/04/13

Wesam Ahmad works for Al-Haq. He is a Palestinian-American born and raised in the U.S. He earned a B.A. in Political Science and Sociology, and a J.D., from Louisiana State University. Also, he completed an LL.M./M.L. in International Human Rights Law from the National University of Ireland – Galway. Al-Haq is an independent Palestinian human rights organization based in Ramallah, West Bank (occupied Palestinian territories). It was founded in 1979 devoted to documenting human rights violations of “parties to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict” or Israeli-Palestinian issue with the continual production/issuance of reports and detailed legal studies.

Here we talk about the blockade, the Question of Palestine, humanizing the issue, the Great March of Return/Great Return March, illegal settlement businesses in the West Bank, and more.

*Interview conducted on April 1, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Okay, so, let’s start with some of the more perennial issues well past a decade since their inception to do with the blockade, what is the current status of this? What have been some of the impacts? Some people may not know, but the serious impacts on the lives of Palestinians due to this. The blockade and how this affects Palestinian society in general in the oPt.

Wesam Ahmad: The situation in Gaza has been dire for an extremely long time. Even U.N. agencies addressed the issue, the current situation, about Gaza being an uninhabitable place with extreme population density and lack of access to resources, and various other factors like water and electricity, it makes the situation very difficult. This has been the result of concerted efforts by the Israeli occupation to confine and punish the Palestinian population living in the Gaza Strip as part of its broader policy of occupation toward the entirety of occupied Palestinian territory (oPt). The impact is having a very dire impact on Palestinians living in the Gaza Strip. The ability to pursue the most basic elements of a dignified life are stripped away. They are unable to access one of the greatest resources, which is the Mediterranean Sea, whether for fishing or, in a larger sense, the access to natural gas reserves. So, Israel controls the entirety of the occupied Palestinian territories, but, in many ways, takes advantage of the resources there, as well.

Jacobsen: In regard to some semblance of justice, this has been marginally acquired for Palestinians and Palestinian society in general. This is one of the longest-standing issues in the United Nations entitled the Question of Palestine. Also, it is one of the major, last colonial facets of the 20th-century spanning into the 21st. There have been some developments with regards to the International Criminal Court, the ICC, with Fatou Bensouda (Chief Prosecutor of the ICC). What, from the perspective of Al-Haq, are some of the updates there?

Ahmad: I mean, like you said, Scott. The issue is very much a connection between the colonial past of the world and the present situation Palestinians are facing. It is a test for international law in terms of its development to stop these colonial practices. Practices the world has deemed as inappropriate behaviour in international relations. We see the ICC as a manifestation of the development of international law as an institution to hold perpetrators accountable who are involved in the breach of international law and various crimes. The test is for the ICC to stay true to its principles and show the revolution of international law, and the institutions associated therewith, are principled and withstand even politically sensitive issues. Otherwise, it would only be another institution in which only the weak are subjected to account.

Jacobsen: In the Gaza Strip, in the West Bank, and in East Jerusalem, what are the conversations among civilians? How do they view it? Their attitudes and feelings to humanize the issue, where the abstract legal and other aspects are covered along those lines.

Ahmad: In one sense, it is about trying to control that segment of the population and ensure the costs do not outweigh the benefits of the control. So, Israel is able to benefit from the captive population therein, in terms of sales of products. Also, it is able to exploit the natural gas reserves off the coast of the Mediterranean preventing Palestinian access to it. So, it becomes part of the broader matrix of control, where Israel is trying to manage the colonial practices and the people under its control while, at the same time, exploiting whatever resource are available, whether natural resources or the people themselves, in order to maintain this cost-benefit calculus.  

Jacobsen: Every week, for some time (March 30, 2018, to December 27, 2019) [Ed. Originally, these were planned from Land Day (March 30) in 2018 to Nakba Day (May 15) in 2018.], there was the Great March of Return/Great Return March. What were some of the communities’ reactions to this and the international community?

Ahmad: Look, the Great March of Return, like any developments in a Palestinian context, is part of a much bigger issue. We can’t look at that in isolation. It is very much connected to the ongoing blockade and the creation of this uninhabitable situation. You don’t have to be Palestinian. You don’t have come from Gaza in order to understand human nature and the reaction to a horizon of an uninhabitable society before you. The ability to see how people would react to this prospect. It is against human nature to simply sit back and accept this kind of demise. We are seeing this around the world today. Even the freest societies have fights over toilet paper, so, we have to look into the nature of the human being. What makes them react in a particular way within a particular context? Then you can very much see the parallels.

Jacobsen: Regarding some of the issues in some of the freer societies, and in some of these societies with more abundant resources, for example, the mentioning of the hoarding of toilet paper hitting the newsstands in some of these more abundant countries. How is COVID-19 impacting Israeli society and Palestinian society?

Ahmad: A dramatic impact on everyone in the world. Given the Palestinian context, the inability of the Palestinians to decide their own fate because so many things are under Israeli control. It highlights how interconnected we are and how important it is for us to have freedom. Not simply for the purposes of determining our fate, but the ability to ensure our survival, these things are very much becoming more acute in the developments with regards to the pandemic. Even more so in the current moment than before, there is an opportunity for the world to, not only sympathize with the Palestinians but, empathize and relate more than before.

Jacobsen: As you were noting, many of the issues Palestinians are facing, which are numerous and enormously impactful in their daily lives. The issue around COVID-19 and the lack of resources – intensive care beds, masks, testing kits, etc.; the lack of these can be largely attributed to the blockade.

Ahmad: With regards to the Gaza Strip, absolutely, the blockade exists in different manifestations and different parts of occupied Palestinian territory. It is the sea access, which gives it a unique dimension with regards to Gaza. Anything Palestinians want to import or export is subject to Israeli discretion, whether it is in Gaza or in the West Bank. It is much more difficult when you’re dealing with the situation in Gaza.

Jacobsen: In fact, there was another thing. The U.N. Human Rights Council released a list of businesses dealing internationally – Israel, Luxembourg, France, Netherlands, Thailand, the United Kingdom, and the United States. Countries doing business, basically, on illegal settlements in the West Bank with the number coming out as 112. Is this a healthy first step in moving things towards justice rather than not in this domain of businesses in the illegal settlements in the West Bank?

Ahmad: It is an important positive development. It is a U.N. body providing affirmation to this issue. However, at the same time, it is a very conservative document, which does not take into account the much broader scope and engagement of multinational corporations within the Israeli settlement enterprise. For us, it is about keeping the U.N. involved in this issue, but, also, to not forget the information in the U.N. database does not cover everything. We have to ensure all actors are not involved in violations of international humanitarian law and not profiting from the conflict.

Jacobsen: From the point of view of Al-Haq, what would be the scope required to more accurately represent, not only the businesses listed in the U.N. Database but also, the aforementioned multinational corporations and others?

Ahmad: I can direct you to a fellow organization, which is an Israeli human rights organization. It has a much more extensive listing of corporations. It gives a sense of the scope because there is direct and indirect involvement. There is a supply chain. There is a benefit. All of these things. If you really want to address the issue of fatality, then you have to look at this in a more holistic manner. As they say, “Follow the money.”

Jacobsen: What other organizations would you recommend for readers today?

Ahmad: There are many great organizations working very hard, even within the current situation. I’ve mentioned “Who Profits.” B’Tselem, some of the Israeli organizations, Adalah (Palestinian organization in Israel), some other great Palestinian organizations in the Gaza Strip (Al Mezan, Palestinian Center for Human Rights). You have a lot of other great Palestinian organizations here in the West Bank focused on specific issues, e.g., Defense for Children International – Palestine (DCI-P) focused on children. Anyone who wants more information can go to Al Haq’s website and see the various organizations, which we work with, to get more information.

Jacobsen: Will there be any upcoming reports or reportage that will be particularly prescient and important for some of the topics covered today, including the ICC, COVID-19, and the blockade?

Ahmad: The pandemic has had an impact on a lot of the work that we’ve been doing. It is a question of balancing the things that were in the pipeline before and addressing the current situation. I think a lot of the timelier work will be related to the current situation and the COVID-19 outbreak, and how that plays out within the dynamics of the conflict. Other issues will be continuing to address the ICC, which is really within the hands of the Court because we’ve already submitted necessary documentation. Only last week, we had involvement in issues regarding the blockade in Gaza with other organizations. So, it is a very fluid situation, which we try to continue to balance more short-term issues and more long-term issues.

Jacobsen: Any final feelings or thoughts in conclusion based on the conversation today?

Ahmad: No, I think it’s great to have your readers interested in the situation here. I hope that as the situation develops over time; that we come to see our interconnectedness, to see ourselves as a collective of humanity rather than individual states competing with one another. Hopefully, this will lead to positive change for all.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Wesam.

Ahmad: Thank you, Scott, take care.

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Extensive Interview with Dr. Darrel Ray on Secular Therapy and Recovering From Religion

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/04/10

Dr. Darrel Ray is a Former Clinical Psychologist in Practice (30 years) and an Organizational Psychologist, Speaker, and Activist, as well as one of the Founders of Recovering from Religion. Recovering from Religion is a 501(c)3 non-profit dedicated to helping people leave religion. He earned a B.A. in Sociology, an M.A. in Religion, and an Ed.D. in Counselling Psychology from the Peabody College of Vanderbilt University. Also, he founded the Secular Therapy Project in April of 2012 providing support for those who are leaving or have left religion.

Here we talk about, once more, religion and work Dr. Ray does in supporting individuals who happened to have had highly bad, traumatic, experiences with religion and chose to leave it, with a connection to formal therapeutic interventions provided by Recovering from Religion in general as a resource and the Secular Therapy Project as a means by which to connect with secular therapists in particular.

*Interview conducted on March 20, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, some of the issues that we are seeing now. They have been a World Health Organization declaration of a pandemic with the symptomatology of COVID-19 produced by, SARS-CoV-2. It is, basically, the sequel that no one wanted from the 2002/2003 movie SARS-CoV-1. When we are looking at some of the services to those who are leaving or who have left the negative impacts of a traditional fundamentalist religion, what are some of your concerns, as someone who has studied this, looked into this, over time?

Darrel Ray: I am concerned that not only is the virus being spread biologically in normal ways. But that humans are facilitating the spread. So, you get ministers refusing to quarantine and having services anyway. You have priests, in Italy, going to visit people and, probably, spreading the virus themselves. Calvinists say that you can all drink out of the communion cup. And if they come to this particular religious group, God will protect you. Others will say that God will protect you, if you believe in their God virus. I call this a virus. People are taking advantage of people’s concerns to get more and more money for their religious organizations. I also see people coming to us. “Us” being Recovery From Religion. Those who are trying to suck people back into religion based on normal fears of this invisible virus. It is invisible as humans. We only know about it because we have molecular biology [Laughing], to back us up.

Jacobsen: Psychologically, for someone who might be on the fence around some of their fundamentalist upbringing, those believing in apparitions, miracles, efficacy of intercessory prayer. How do they, in times of crisis or in crises, get pulled back into that world of supernatural, magical thinking, wishful thinking?

Ray: Scott, we always go back to childhood. That is when you get infected with religious ideas. At the age of 3, 4, or 5 years old, I am guessing that you were taught English.

Jacobsen: Yes.

Ray: Somebody in Germany was taught German. You just accept it. You imbibe what is in your environment. Now, it would be nice to learn German or French. However, this is in retrospect. You did not have a choice. If you were raised in a very religious environment like Iran, Pakistan, a Jehovah’s Witness home in Colorado or a Mormon home in Utah, you would have not – at the age of 3, 4, or 5 – have thought, “Why aren’t my parents teaching me Catholicism or Buddhism?” It would not have occurred to you. While you are learning the language, you are learning a religion. Parents are very important to a child. You live or die based on the protection your parents give you. Your parents, let us go back to the old times, 100,000 years ago; you’re in the Savannah of Africa. Your parents say, “Don’t go over there in the bushes. There are lions that will eat you.” The next day, the parents say, “Don’t go over by that tree because there are demons that will infect you, or get you.” As a child, you have no way to know which to believe. So, you believe both. The same is true today. Parents say, “Don’t read that book or the Devil will get you. Don’t watch that television or Satan will infect your mind.” It is the same as “don’t go play outside in the street.” The children do not know which is true, so believes both. It is the way in which you imbibe language at that time in your life. Now, you are 30, 40, or 50 years old. You have believed this stuff as a child. You realize it was all bullshit.

There are no demons over there. Yet, your pre-conscious mind still harbours those fears and those ideas, and those beliefs. They are something that you learned right away. Certainly, you cannot unlearn them just as you could not unlearn the language learned at 3-years-old. You got language at 3-years-old. You got religion at 3-years-old. It is very difficult to unlearn something like that. What we are doing is to help people build strategies for bypassing those, it is not like you are going to unlearn it. I drive down the street. I see the “Love Jesus” signs.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Ray: It pisses me off now. It is probably based on some learning from my grandmother many years ago. That is the reason people have a hard time leaving the religion. And why after leaving it, the draw is there. Literally, last night, I had an extended conversation with a former Baptist minister. Now, he has been out of the ministry for 5 years. He was up there preaching fire and brimstone as recently as 5 years ago. Now, he realizes it was all a con game. He is out. He talked about how difficult it is now with the coronavirus stuff going on, and the fear with it. Even though, he knows the science. He did not know before. He wants to go back to church. He still wants to pray. He wants to feel as he felt as a child when they sang children’s religious songs. I want the feeling of safety within my family, within my tribe. That is what your tribe did. Your tribe sang. Here is how we know that; the hymns of the Baptist church will make you feel comfortable. If you raised in a Baptist church, then you will feel comfortable with Baptist kinds of music. But if you wanted to get the religious music fix by going to a Catholic or an Anglican church, then those songs will not make you feel comfortable. In fact, they will make you feel uncomfortable. To this former Baptist preacher, I said, “You need to sing religious songs, sing them in a Lutheran church, see what happens.” He laughed. He laughed at me, “That won’t work. It has to be Baptist songs and stuff” [Laughing]. Therein lies the secret for how religion works, you are so young that you cannot reasonably understand what is going on. You feel secure with your tribe. But it can only be Baptist tribal stuff. You can be a full-on atheist and still get the comfort of singing Baptist songs.

Jacobsen: What about some of these multimillionaire mega-church pastors in the United States who are beginning to and will continue to abuse crises, epidemics, for personal financial gain? Do any particular examples come to mind?

Ray: Yes, Kenneth Copeland is probably the wealthiest mega-church minister out there. Joel Osteen is another major mega-church minister who is very wealthy. A good friend of mine, Hector Garcia, wrote an excellent book called Alpha God. It helps us understand how our primate nature to follow an alpha leader is so strong in us. That those people are simply taking advantage of a deeply embedded, probably almost instinctual, desire to find the alpha male and follow the alpha male. I do mean male. Because it does not work as well with the females of our species. As we all know, every species has a pattern and behaviour with regards to sex and sexuality and how people respond to sexual dominance, and sexual submission. So, you watch a troupe of chimpanzees. The top two or three males dominate the sexuality of all of the females. The females themselves do not present themselves to beta males. They only present themselves for sex to the alpha males. It is easy to understand as primates because every primate has this kind of pattern. They differ by species, of course. But we have the same pattern. We can see this in bonobos. We can see this in chimps. We can see this in gorillas. We can see this in ourselves. So, you have the sheikh who has four wives in Saudi Arabia, but then you have Mohammed who had fourteen wives as the alpha male. In Christian culture, you have the same things happening. Even if a male cannot have more than one wife, many, many ministers have been caught with his pants down with the wrong female.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Ray: Because Christian mega-church ministers very well have groupies, like rock stars. Mick Jagger has groupies. We have women who will go to bed with him anytime. Chances are Kenneth Copeland does too. Same with Joel Osteen. They get caught. Then they seem to always get forgiven. They are forgiven because they are so valuable to the spreading of their particular God virus. You cannot fire a Catholic priest. It took 8 years or more to train that priest. You are not just going to throw him out because he raped a few children. They will send him to a new parish. The same thing happens with Baptist ministers. A Baptist minister rapes a 14-year-old girl in his congregation. They overlook it. They overlook it two or three times. Until, they send him off or send him to prison. What I am trying to illustrate, I am not saying this is about sex alone. I am talking about dominance and dominance hierarchies. Humans have an incredible need to follow the dominance hierarchy. That is why our current President got elected. He acts more dominant than just about anyone since Teddy Roosevelt. It is the way that he acts. It is attractive to a certain sector of the population that craves that form of leadership. It is how you get Hitler or Mao Zedong. These people have a way of tapping into the human need for dominant alpha males in our society. It makes them feel comfortable, even at the risk of their own life. This is what you see in alpha males, whether it is a great Assyrian ruler, or Julius Caesar. You name it. They know how to tap into the alpha male. The alpha male in any culture. That is what Kenneth Copeland does. That is what religious leaders do. People need to feel safe. That is what these people provide. A very visceral sense of safety under this alpha male. The biggest one in this framework is Yahweh, God, or Jesus. These guys represent that alpha male. That alpha male says that he protects you. There’s evidence that he can because the police and the army all follow the same alpha God, “In God we trust,” is on our license plates.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Ray: It is all there and ties into alpha males, dominance hierarchies, and sexuality. You cannot divorce these things. We are animals, like chimpanzees.

Jacobsen: When you are having conversations with former religious leaders, in your country, it will be Christian of various forms. What are some of their transition points? What were the lynchpins? Because, in my experience in talking with people, not in a clinical way or with the background of knowledge you may have, it is the general sense of not all at once. Because the entire system of belief was built piece-by-piece and so falls away piece-by-piece. You noted this in an earlier response with an individual who may not believe in any god, but may still feel comfortable in the music or the community, or the worship aspect of faith while not believing any of it. Similar to those who may have left an abusive religious upbringing, do not believe in any of it, while has a visceral fear of hell, this sort of thing.

Ray: We see this a lot with people who come to us for help. That is, the journey is generally fast. Some people will say, “I can tell you the night that I figured it all out.” They can name the night or day. However, they bring with them the residuals of the former religious structure. The residuals hide. They are hard to find sometime, but they are there. For example, it comes out often in waking up in cold sweats over a nightmare of hell. We get thousands of chats per year – literally thousands, many may deal with the fear of hell. I mean 50% or, maybe, more of things that we deal with: the fear of hell or the fear of punishment in the afterlife. It may not be hell in the Christian sense. It may be hell in the Hindu, Muslim, or Buddhist sense. They all have a kind of punishment. Some kind of consequence if you don’t live the life prescribed by them in life. Fear of hell is #1. It comes up over, and over, and over, again. There are other indicators of them bringing religious residuals into their new secular life. It often centres around sexuality. So, #2 behind the fear of hell are issues around their sexuality and things like, “I know it’s not wrong to masturbate, but I still feel guilty,” “I am a sex addict because I look at porn.” There’s tons of evidence that the most religious people self-identify the most as “sex addicts.” Not to mind, there is no such thing as sex addiction. There’s no way to define it. I have argued with atheists that have been atheists for 20 years who say that they are sex addicts. Help me understand, how did you get that diagnosis? “My mother-in-law diagnosed me” [Laughing]. “I look at porn once or twice a week.” I do not care if you look at porn once or twice an hour. You are still not a sex addict. So, get over that. You may have other issues. You may have some compulsions. You may have some fear of driving the issue. But it almost always comes down to early childhood religious training, as we spoke about earlier. So, people are simply responding to the programming. Even though, they are atheist, secular, agnostic. I do not care what you call yourself. You are still dealing with the programming. Sometimes, you can go an entire lifetime with a guilt, a shame, a fear, rooted in religion. You do not even know it is there. You may not even know that your inability to have good, positive sexual relationships with somebody is directly related to being spanked by your mother or father for touching yourself when you were 6 years old. All of that stuff that people get programmed with. It is a journey. It may be a lifelong journey. It may be 10 months. It is rarely, rarely under 2 or 3 years. Unless, you were raised in something like Episcopalians or Unitarians. Those people do not have much to get over. The Baptists, the Catholics, the Muslims, the Hindus, and the Buddhists, all of those religions. Do not let anybody tell you, “Buddhism is not a religion.” It is a fucking religion just like any of the others. It teaches as much shame and guilt about your body. It is as misogynistic as any patriarchal religion. That is my lecture on Buddhism.

Jacobsen: What are some examples of Buddhist sexism?

Ray: First of all, they take 9-year-old boys and put them in a monastery. There, they are victims of monks who could do whatever they want to do; the sex scandals in Thailand are as bad as any Catholic sex scandal. It is not just in Thailand. Although, this is the place where this has most clearly been exposed. Another thing is the theology: women are second-class citizens. It is harder for women to get the rewards of the so-called afterlife – nirvana, etc. – than a man. Also, women are second-class citizens within the hierarchy. Have you ever heard of a Dalai Lama who is female?

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Ray: [Laughing] There is no such thing. Because men are always dominant in Buddhism. It is a patriarchal religion down to its founding. So, people are always saying, “Buddhism is different.” No, it is not. Maybe, California Buddhism is different. But how many female Buddhist gurus are there? How many female gurus in Hinduism are there? There are few if any. It is, basically, misogynistic and patriarchal.

Jacobsen: When individuals make a transition, there are points that can be little mini-phase changes for them. When they start to do this within a community that may be highly religions, so, the ones that hit the newspaper stands and the online media outlets for Canadians when looking at the United States in the current moment would be the Evangelical Christians. In other cases, it is going to be Catholics. In general, it is two: the Evangelical Christians and the Roman Catholics taking the media time when Canadian secular people are looking at the United States, probably. Similarly, in Canada, it is about the same. It is, typically, the Evangelicals in certain areas of the country. In other cases, it is going to be Catholics. I think the Roman Catholic example is due to demographic dominance similar to the United States. When it comes to communities that are particular to the jot and tittle of Catholicism and Evangelicalism in the United States, and I would extend this to the Canadian landscape as well, what are typical things individuals can expect from that community when they find that they are not believers or are questioning their belief? How does this impact social life? Then how does this impact professional treatment, when they are talking with colleagues or at their workplace?

Ray: Wow – there are two big questions there. A third thing that I want to address right off the bat. You have a big problem in Alberta and in Manitoba because we get a lot of calls from them. We know it. Not very highly populated provinces of Canada, they are more like Alabama in some ways, Mississippi. They may not like me saying it [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Ray: I also want to expand the question. It is a universal pattern. It is not whether it is Catholic or Evangelical. We see the same pattern coming out in Mormonism and the same pattern coming out Jehovah’s Witnesses. We see the same pattern coming out of highly Islamic families in America as well as Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. It is more a matter of degree than religion. If the religion is extremely fundamentalist, then the degree is going to be a hell of a lot more in terms of how they will be treated upon leaving that religion. We see a whole lot of Southern Baptist families disowning their children at any age, whether still teenagers at home or adults, over simply not believing their doctrine anymore. Even if the person leaves Baptists and becomes a Methodist, they may still be disowned. It is not just leaving the religion. We know of Catholic families who have disowned their children because they became Evangelical Christians. That pattern is a tribal thing: “You are no longer a part of our tribe. We are not going to protect you anymore. We are not going to give you the benefit of our largesse. You are not going to get a casserole when you are sick. You are no longer a part of us. You are ex-communicated socially if not theologically from our religion.” The pattern is the same whether Westboro Baptist Church, which is only 45 miles from my house, by the way. Or a Mormon polygamist [Laughing], if you will, family from Salt Lake City, Utah. The patterns are almost identical.

First, they get a rather strict warning and an offer to get back under Jesus’ protection. If they do not follow that warning, then they will be ostracized and put out of the community. They will be allowed back into the community in the case of the Mormons or the Jehovah’s Witnesses only if they show certain penances. With the Evangelicals, they cannot control people quite as much. But you are still not going to get back in as easy. Also, the Evangelicals do not have the formal structure that one sees in Mormonism or Catholicism being put out or being brought back in. You ask about the professional. There are two professional things that I want to talk about. If you are in a community dominated by a particular religion, such as Mormons in Utah or Baptists in Alabama, your boss is probably Mormon of Baptist too. You may not go to the same church. But once the boss finds out that you are now an atheist, your job may not be secure in the future. They will find ways to fire you. We get lots of examples, “I tried to hide my atheism. I did it for three years. My boss found out and fired me.” Even if you are fired for illegal means, who is going to sue him? What Lawyer is going to take his case? There is a whole structure for supporting and forcing people to stay inside of the religion or, at least, to keep their mouth shut. That is the crime. Scott, the crime is not necessarily becoming an atheist or becoming secular. It is opening your mouth about it. That is the crime.

Jacobsen: That is a very good point.

Ray: I told my parents at 16, “I don’t believe in this stuff anymore.”My parents said, “Okay, just keep your mouth shut and don’t tell anyone, because it will be a disgrace to the family. By the way, you still have to go to church, still have to sing in the choir, etc.” If the child agrees to not talk about their atheism, then they may be able to survive. We have many college kids saying, “I don’t believe any of this shit anymore. My parents said, ‘As long as you keep your mouth shut, we will keep paying your college bills. The minute that you open your mouth. We are cutting you off.’” That is a real thing that we see a lot.

Jacobsen: The parents are afraid of social opprobrium.

Ray: That is exactly right. Religion teaches, bring up your child in God’s name and nothing will go wrong. When the child questions or leaves, it becomes a judgment on the parents, “You must have done a bad job as a parent. Otherwise, your child would not have strayed.” It is a reflection of the parents. That is what they are afraid of suffering. That they were a bad parent. There is a scripture. But I cannot quite it right now – ‘Bring up the child in the ways of the Lord, and he will never go astray,’ which is bullshit. Children have a mind of their own.

The second thing that I want to talk about. When people leave, there are enormous mental health and emotional consequences for leaving a religion that dominates an entire community. Let us just give a radical example, which is not really that radical, a girl in Iran tells her family that she no longer believes. She may find herself being stoned to death. In Saudi Arabia, she may get her head cut off. She will, certainly, be abused by her family. It is no wonder that somebody leaving a religion under those circumstances might experience depression.

A mental condition, I am hesitant to call it a mental illness because it really is not. You may become depressed in that environment. But that is probably a pretty reasonable response to that environment. An illness denotes a problem or some internal problem. The internal problem in this case is the structure does not parallel the internal belief system. So, the cognitive dissonance that you are having to deal with every single day is difficult. It would cause emotional distress and, finally, depression. Back to the second part of that question. What will that parent do when their child is depressed, the child knows, “I am depressed.” They do not know the psychological component. The child knows, “I do not believe in this stuff anymore. Mom and dad are making me go to church and read the Bible. I don’t want to do that.” The conflict is causing cognitive dissonance and the child does not know how to deal with that, which causes depression. The parents say, “Our child is not acting right, Our child has flunked out of school and was a good student.” They send this person to a counsellor or a therapist. When the child gets there, it may be a Christian counsellor. Therein the professional piece, which I want to talk about, is being sent to a fucking Christian counsellor to deal with the depression brought on by the religion of Christianity.

We are seeing a massive number of schools training and graduating Christian counsellors who are licensable in many states. Liberty University is graduating licensable Christian marriage and family counsellors. Regents University, Oral Roberts University, Pat Robertson, George Fox University, all these universities are graduating people. Brigham Young University too, they teach that gayness is a disease and God will judge you, put you in hell, for being anything except straight, missionary position. There is another professional issue there. There is very little help for people leaving religion, even children, in the mental health world. There is a hell of a lot of apparently qualified counsellors, psychologists, psychotherapists, psychiatrist. I say, “Apparently qualified,” because their underlying belief structure is one of supernaturalism. If you pray good enough, then you will get over your depression. I have literally heard psychiatrists. This is an M.D. person. They say, “Yes, I will pray with my client.” They themselves have a religion “because I think prayer helps people get over depression.” The depression was caused by the thing that you were praying to in the first place.

That is why I created Recovering From Religion in 2009. We are 11 years old now. In 2012, I created the Secular Therapy Project because there are so damn many religious counsellors. You cannot find a counsellor who does not bring Jesus into the therapy session. To diagnose the depression and relate this to the non-belief, it is practically illegal in the therapy world because we are taught as therapists: You cannot challenge somebody’s religion. Religion is the cause of a hell of a lot of mental illnesses. If it is not the cause, then it, certainly, exacerbates. You are a child with a tendency towards depression. Your religion tells you that you are a worthless piece of shit and you are going to hell; and your body is your enemy. Is it any surprise that you will experience intense depression? That is just not allowed in many training programs, even secular – so-called secular – programs at state universities. They teach, “Don’t challenge someone’s belief system. Don’t challenge someone’s religion.” I am calling bullshit. We need to challenge them. But we need to challenge them in a respectful way. The job of the therapist is not deconversion. The job of the therapist is to help deal with the dysfunctional beliefs underlying the issue.

Jacobsen: If someone comes to a counsellor, and if someone has done their homework, then they may come to someone who is a highly religious oriented and trained counsellor or therapist while being a secular person reaching to someone for some psychological help, whatever the help might be. If someone has not done their homework, they made that mistake. What can they do in terms of reporting malpractice of a highly religious counsellor attempting to convert a client themselves, in sessions, for one? For two, what are the ways in which those highly religious counsellors who are trained at these highly religious universities use these ideas to help people through real psychological problems with supernatural ‘therapies’?

Ray: It is very hard for somebody who has a fundamental supernatural belief structure to have a well-formed, well-trained therapeutic approach. I will tell you why. Right now, we call this evidence-based practice, EBP. If you are using evidence-based practice, and if you are well-trained, the fundamental foundation for all EBP is rational-behaviour therapy, cognitive-behavioural therapy. It is the same thing, different name. Let me say, the inventor or the developer of cognitive-behavioural therapy, which virtually every EBP therapist will have been trained in was founded by Dr. Albert Ellis. My mentor, I studied with him back in the 70s. Dr. Albert Ellis founded the whole school of cognitive-behavioural therapy. He was a fucking out atheist, big time. He was named Atheist of the Year by American Atheists back in 1981 or something like that. There are no ifs, ands, or buts, Using cognitive-behavioural analysis, you are analyzing belief structures and your rational /irrational ideas. If you use that effectively, there is not a single religious idea that will stand up to that examination. It is almost – I won’t say this 100%, but will come real damn close to it – I can’t see how you can be a good therapist and hold any kind of supernatural beliefs because, by definition, those supernatural beliefs are irrational. How can you help somebody else deal with an irrational belief that you believe? That is my question.

That is a fundamental problem of any therapy training program that graduates people that have supernatural beliefs. I am pretty strong about that. That is why I started the secular therapy project. If someone has not done their homework, before seeing a religious therapist. I am sorry. You have wasted the first 4 hours of sessions on that therapist who is a Jesus believer. What I would suggest, first thing, you can tell your therapist, “I am an atheist. I expect you to use evidence-based practices with me. Period.” You have to be assertive because they may not respect your boundaries. That is a boundary that you need to put in place, as soon as you find out the therapist has any supernatural beliefs, e.g., New Age, crystals, chakras. Anything like that. There is no scientific evidence for this stuff. If they cannot respect the boundary, you have got a problem and need to get out of there. Here is the thing, Scott, poor therapy is frequently worse than no therapy. You may feel better because they are a good listener. There are many therapists who are good listeners. But listening is different from therapy. So, you need somebody who really know show to guide you into the place that you want to go. You cannot do that if they don’t know how to do good therapy. Second thing, if you want help beforehand, you contact us. People can chat into Recovery From Religion has a chatline at the website. Ask, “Can you give me guidelines for finding a good therapist?” We have a whole set of guidelines.

You can sign onto the Secular Therapy Project and find if there is a therapist near your zip code. These days, you will need to schedule a teleconference with them because of the pandemic. If you find a therapist that is violating their own ethics, trying to convert you, or to bring religion into it. If a client brings religion into their session, then the therapist can work with the client working in their framework. The therapist should never bring their religious framework into a session, ever. If that happens, then they should report that person to the licensing office of their particular state. I would love it if they would contact us: www.seculartherapyproject.org. You can ask for Dr. Travis McKie-Voerst. We have to challenge illegal and unethical practices in the United States. There are ethical guidelines against these violations. The legal entities and the associations are ignoring those guidelines when it has to do with religion. Religion is getting a pass. Even though, it is illegal and unethical.

Jacobsen: What is the state of the peer-reviewed evidence on teletherapy versus in-person therapy?

Ray: Oh! Good question, there is a growing amount of evidence that teletherapy or distance counselling is almost as effective. We won’t say, “As effective.” But it seems almost as effective as face-to-face. I do not know how you would put a percent on it. There have been a few studies comparing the two. It is hard to do. It is really hard.

Jacobsen: Let us say someone is having some issue, in an in-person session, it takes, on average, 10 weeks of therapy to work through and process that issue for an average person. Averaged over a general population, etc. We do all the proper controls – p-values, effect sizes, and so on. We look at the tele-help. It takes 12 weeks. Then we can say, “It takes 20% longer with teletherapy compared to in-person therapy for this particular issue for an average North American in Canada, America, or Mexico.” What I am getting from you, the evidence still needs to poor in, in addition to some form of metanalyses of efficacy.

Ray: We are not there, yet. I am not an expert here. What I have seen and heard, and read, there has been very few studies. What we do know, it is still in its infancy. There is a big problem with legality. It is hard to do a study. It is almost like, “Let’s do a study of the efficacy of marijuana in Kansas versus California.” It is fucking illegal. So, it is hard to study the stuff as openly if it is against the law. This is what we are facing here. Teletherapy is – literally – illegal in some states. It is prohibited across state lines in virtually all states. I can do counselling in Kansas. But if someone wants me to call them, or wants to do a Skype session over the internet in Massachusetts, Kansas will not allow it. Insurance will not pay for it. Medicare will not pay for it. By the way, my professional insurance will not cover me if I get sued. So, there are enormous obstacles to providing teletherapy in the United States. There is not in Canada. Thankfully, you guys do not have this level of regulation. However, also, this means people do not have the level of security in the people providing therapy. It has its ups-and-downs, pluses-and-minuses. That is a big problem for us, now.

We have this gigantic crisis with the coronavirus. People are desperately in need of mental health support. They cannot get out of their house to see the therapist. What is the therapist supposed to do, it is illegal to provide it. I live just outside of Kansas City, Kansas. If I had a client living in Missouri 25 miles away, I could not provide tele-help for them. They would have to drive in their car over to Kansas to get therapy in my office. But I am retired. I do not practice anymore. I do not want anybody calling me. So, those are some of the obstacles that we are facing. This crisis is going to force the world of psychology and psychotherapy, as a legal structure, to re-examine how we deliver services. We have been pitching for teletherapy for a long time, called tele-health, because a doctor has the same problem. Going across state lines, the licenses do not necessarily protect you. If you mis-diagnose something, or provide less than whatever the quality of care is, you are not protected. It is not just psychology. It is also medicine. But medicine is solving some of those problems. I think psychology will have to solve them too. We depend more upon the spoken word and face-to-face contact. A physician can look at tests, interview you while looking for symptoms. They are not necessarily looking if you have depression or bipolar. There is a real difference in how a physician and a psychologist would practice tele-health. Gosh! We got off pretty far on that tangent. Man-oh-man [Laughing].

Jacobsen: A few things will not be affected at Recovery From Religion. One will be the blog. Another will be the podcast. Another – ding-ding – will be donations. They will not be impacted because you can do them online. When it comes to the Fall Excursion, what is the status of that? Because I know some secular event shave put question marks up around their happening based on the SARS-CoV-2 crisis.

Ray: Wow – Scott, that is a great question. You know more about our organization than I probably thought that you did. Fall Excursion is, literally, still up in the air.  We had a conversation yesterday. Even if the crisis is over by September when we scheduled it, people’s financial issues may be difficult. We are not sure people will be able to afford it. So, this is not official. It is not looking good. However, we are working really hard to make some lemonade out of the lemons that we have been given. We have meetings. These are local meetups for Recovering From Religion. We have gotten meetings here in Kansas City, in San Diego, in Columbus, Ohio. They meet once or twice per a month. People can come and sit down in a library or in somebody’s coffee shop and talk about their recovery with a trained facilitator. They are not a psychologist or a therapist, but are trained to help people process their emotions in leaving religion. We cannot have those, anymore, at least until the crisis is over. We’re rapidly transitioning into an online format. We believe this will allow us to serve a lot more people. We are also transitioning the Secular Therapy Project into some psychoeducation programs, which will be online, free. We charge nothing for any of our services. Everything at Recovering from Religion is free.  So, we are going to be putting together a team of therapists to put together some psychoeducation.

Basically, we are not doing therapy, but educating people on things that might help them to help themselves. In fact, I did a talk for Atheists United in Los Angeles by Zoom. I will be doing three more talks on Monday evenings by Zoom and we will have more over the coming months by other people and therapists. We have 100 placements available on Zoom. We are looking to do more of that stuff. We think that we can provide a lot of support to people online. Since a lot of people are sitting at home with nothing to do…

Jacobsen: …[Laughing]…

Ray: …we recently had two online events, where we would normally expect 20 people to show up. 29 showed up to one and 50 at the other. So, I think people are hungry for this. They want to have a connection back to their group. They want to have the support of someone who is competent and willing to listen. Also, they want education. How many people know how to deal with this kind of a situation? I confess. I am probably as well trained as anybody. I am still trying to figure out what is the best approach to things. That is what we are doing at Recovering From Religion. Unfortunately, it may mean we have to cancel the Fall Excursion, which was a success beyond our wildest dreams. We were amazed at how well things went for us. This is coming from someone who was skeptical at first. However, our social media person, Shannon Nebo, convinced us to give it a shot. I am glad that she did.

Jacobsen: What do you see as the main service, non-tangible service, of the Secular Therapy Project and Recovering From Religion?

Ray: Our premier service is the chatline and the phone line. You can call from anywhere in North America, Australia, or the UK and get a human being to talk to. There are no robots. It is human beings. They will talk to you. We are hoping to open phone lines to  South Africa, New Zealand and other countries in the future. There is a big market. Our premier program, at this time, serves probably 1-on-1 somewhere between 3,000-5,000 people per year. However, behind that, we have our resources. Our resources website is massive. It is by far the biggest resource page for any kind of recovery stuff on the planet. I have never seen anything that even comes close to it. You name it. The gay kid in the Mormon home. We have a whole set of resources just for you. Or, you are Catholic, Buddhist, etc. We have a lot of resources for ex-Muslims. I dare say our resources are second only to the Atheist Republic or Ex-Muslims of North America. I am not sure. We do not compete with any other organizations. We’re sending people all the time to their organizations. The big thing is the resource webpage. It is the heart and soul of Recovering From Religion. Even though, you would not know it. When you call into us, and tell us about your problems, we will not do therapy with you. We will say, “We have this page. We have this website. This book to read.” We will be pointing to very, very targeted resources that fit your particular needs. To me, this is amazing. That is our real service. It is helping people get connected with resources for their particular needs and conditions.

We will help you to find a therapist. You can do this yourself or tell us the postal code, to help find a therapist in your community. The Secular Therapy Project is 30% of our program. We are connecting people with therapists. However, it is an extension of our resources if you think about it. If you look at the resources, then a big part is finding a therapist. We have 427 (Ed. April, 2020 numbers) registered, evidence-based therapists in the Secular Therapy Project (STP). Over 19,000 people have registered as clients to find therapists over the years. The STP is growing about 28% per year, in clients, but only about 9 or 10% per year in therapists [Laughing]. We need more therapists, a lot more therapists, in other words. So, if that is what you are asking, the other program I told you about earlier – the meetup program, where we have face-to-face meetings in coffee shops. That program is growing. We will continue this when the crisis is over. Right now, that one is transitioning into online support rather than face-to-face. We have a bunch of other things, which we are working on now. For example, before the crisis, we were about ready to launch ourselves into South America. We have been looking to launch into Germany for over a year now. We may not go as fast as we wanted now, due to the crisis. We do not have the bandwidth to process everything we want to do. The Recovering From Religion blog; we will be opening this for the Spanish-speaking world with a Spanish-speaking blog and resource page. Golly! Is that what you are asking, or did I go off it?

Jacobsen: This is good. I think a question in terms of not only what you are providing with the Secular Therapy Project. But, what do you need?

Ray: Money! [Laughing] Money, the bottleneck for any organization is the funds to expand and grow. We started 11 years ago without a dime. We built this whole thing to over 120 volunteers and over 420 therapists. All of the webpages, the development, software development, for the Secular Therapy Project – alone! – was massive, just gigantic. To the degree that we have funds, we can expand. For example, I told you. We have been thinking about opening phone lines. We will only be able to open those phone lines in Australia and the United Kingdom if we have the funds to back those up. When we get grants, we are happy to get grants every now and then. They get you started. They do not keep you going. If we open a program, we want to be able to sustain it. It takes a long time to build a program. If it goes offline as it takes a lot of time and effort to bring it back online. If we know people are giving $5, $10 or $50 per month, then it helps us plan what we want to do. The big grants that come in every one or two years help us get started, but we need to know how to keep things going. Small donors giving us money each month. We love it. A lot of those people got services from us, or volunteer for us. What else do we need? Volunteers, we always need volunteers, Scott. We have a 24-hour helpline, phone line. We are every time zone on the planet. We are always looking for more volunteers both inside North America, and outside. We are looking, potentially, into getting some Spanish-speaking volunteers too. We think there is a real possibility in expanding into the Spanish-speaking world and into the Arab-speaking world. That is where we are now with the programs and the plans.

Jacobsen: Any final feelings or thoughts in conclusion based on the conversation today?

Ray: I think as a secular person; you are stuck with making your own meaning. As a religious person, it comes from a god. A secular person, meaningfulness comes from actions. That is why we are here and started Recovering From Religion. I see Recovering From Religion as a way for people to give back to the community and to help other people who are in the same place that they were five years ago. Actually, Scott, it is highly therapeutic for our volunteers. I just listened to a conference between our volunteers recently. I realized, these people are really dumping their hearts out to one another. It is very therapeutic for them. I think that is the big part that  I discovered. I did not start Recovering From Religion to be therapeutic for the volunteers. I intended this as therapeutic for our clients. As it turns out, this is creating a sense of purpose and meaning among our volunteers. This is where I come from. I like to make meaning and feel like what I am doing has an impact on other people’s lives.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Darrel.

Ray: Yes! You went a lot farther than I thought you would [Laughing]. Catch you later.

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Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 6 – Tripartite Partition: The Israeli Elections, the International Criminal Court (ICC), and SARS-CoV-2/COVID-19

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/04/09

Omar Shakir, J.D., M.A. works as the Israel and Palestine Director for Human Rights Watch. He investigates a variety of human rights abuses within the occupied Palestinian territories/Occupied Palestinian Territories or oPt/OPT (Gaza and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem) and Israel. Language recognized in the work of the OHCHRAmnesty InternationalOxfam InternationalUnited NationsWorld Health OrganizationInternational Labor OrganizationUNRWAUNCTAD, and so on. Some see the Israeli-Palestinian issue as purely about religion. Thus, this matters to freethought. These ongoing interviews explore this issue in more depth. He earned a B.A. in International Relations from Stanford University, an M.A. in Arab Studies from Georgetown University’s School of Foreign Affairs, and a J.D. from Stanford Law School. He is bilingual in Arabic and English. Previously, he was a Bertha Fellow at the Center for Constitutional Rights with a focus on U.S. counterterrorism policies, which included legal representation of Guantanamo detainees. He was the Arthur R. and Barbara D. Finberg Fellow (2013-2014) for Human Rights Watch with investigations, during this time, into the human rights violations in Egypt, e.g., the Rab’a massacre, which is one of the largest killings of protestors in a single day ever. Also, he was a Fulbright Scholar in Syria.

Here we continue with the 6th part in our series of conversations with coverage in the middle of February to the middle of March for the Israeli-Palestinian issue. With the deportation of Shakir, this follows in line with state actions against others, including Amnesty International staff member Laith Abu Zeyad when attempting to see his mother dying from cancer (Amnesty International, 2019; Zeyad, 2019; Amnesty International, 2020), United States Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib and United States Congresswoman Ilhan Omar who were subject to being barred from entry (Romo, 2019), Professor Noam Chomsky who was denied entry (Hass, 2010), and Dr. Norman Finkelstein who was deported in the past (Silverstein, 2008). Shakir commented in an opinion piece:

Over the past decade, authorities have barred from entry MIT professor Noam Chomsky, U.N. special rapporteurs Richard Falk and Michael Lynk, Nobel Peace Prize winner Mairead Maguire, U.S. human rights lawyers Vincent Warren and Katherine Franke, a delegation of European Parliament members, and leaders of 20 advocacy groups, among others, all over their advocacy around Israeli rights abuses. Israeli and Palestinian rights defenders have not been spared. Israeli officials have smearedobstructed and sometimes even brought criminal charges against them. (Shakir, 2019)

Now, based on the decision of the Israeli Supreme Court and the actions of the Member State of the United Nations, Israel, he, for this session, works from Amman, Jordan.

*Interview conducted on March 16, 2020. The previous interview conducted on February 17, 2020[1].*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Since February, middle of February (Jacobsen, 2020), what have been some of the updates in terms of rights abuses within the Israeli-Palestinian issue?

Omar Shakir: Of course, we had Israeli elections on March 2nd (Federman, 2020a; Federman, 2020b; Zion, 2020; Goldenberg, 2020a).[2] A lot of the attention has been taken up by the elections and what that might mean for the human rights situation on the ground. As of now, there are still ongoing negotiations (Federman, 2020c). Benny Gantz[3], the leader of the Blue and White Party (2020), has been tasked with the first opportunity to form a government.[4] He will have some time now to do that.[5] The impact on rights remains to be seen. Another significant development as part of a global environment has been the spread of the coronavirus in Israel and Palestine (Federman, 2020d). Israel has recorded hundreds of cases (Ibid.). We have a few dozen cases in the West Bank as well (Daraghmeh, 2020). Of course, those numbers will continue to likely increase.[6] The spread of this virus has brought about a series of measures taken by both Israeli and Palestinian governments that intersect with a range of human rights issues (Daraghmeh, 2020; Federman, 2020d).

Jacobsen: When we’re looking at some other nations, some will go into complete national or provincial/state lockdown (Barry & Calanni, 2020; Barry & Geller, 2020; The Associated Press, 2020a). Others will deal with things bit-by-bit by closing down schools (Neumeister & Villeneuve, 2020), closing down sporting events (Reynolds, 2020a; Reynolds, 2020b), telling the public not to go into public spaces (Khalil, 2020), because there is no major immunity in the population at large[7]. What are some of the measures being taken in Israeli society and Palestinian society?

Shakir: The Israeli and Palestinian authorities have taken different steps (Federman, 2020d; Daraghmeh, 2020). On the Israeli side, of course, we have seen a series of restrictions on travel (Gambrell, 2020). Most significantly, the Israeli government requires all Israeli citizens and residents returning from travel to go into home quarantine for a period of 2 weeks (The Associated Press, 2020b). So, obviously, this effects thousands of people. The Israeli government is not actively enforcing this, though there have been press reports of folks being questioned, even arrested, for violating that order. The Israeli government has also announced surveillance measures that they are taking against those suspected of having the virus (Mitnick, 2020). That has been a policy that has raised significant rights concerns on the intrusion on the right to privacy (OHCHR, 2020). It also opens the door to discrimination and other rights abuse (Ibid.). In addition, on the Israeli side, there has been a policy that all non-citizens and residents, all foreigners, will be denied entry if they cannot prove that they have the ability upon arrival to self-quarantine (The Associated Press, 2020b).[8] We have also seen, of course, measures taken with regards to Palestinians on the Israeli side.

Among them has been the virtual closure of Bethlehem, once Bethlehem reported a number of coronavirus-related cases (Daraghmeh, 2020). We have also seen a restriction on Israel’s land borders, in terms of entry to Gaza being restricted to humanitarian cases. So, certainly, a lot of these preventative measures have been quite wide. We have seen schools and other institutions closed (Federman, 2020e). Israel hasn’t gone to the point of complete lockdown, as have some countries (Gambrell, 2020; Barry & Geller, 2020). Of course, these policies affect many, but most drastically affect, vulnerable communities. On the Palestinian side, we have seen in the West Bank, authorities have instituted restrictions (Vahdat & Kullab, 2020; Akour & Karimi, 2020). They first imposed some restrictions around access to Bethlehem. Of course, they have limited authority, but their security forces have set-up more checkpoints to monitor movement by Palestinians. Just today, we have seen the Hamas authorities, apparently, closed their side of the border with there’s crossing with Israel. They have announced measures on the Rafah Crossing, where they were putting folks arriving into a quarantine, an institutional quarantine, at a school (Vahdat & Karam, 2020). There have been reports of there being abuses there, having taken place.

Jacobsen: What about issues around conflict increases or decreases along borders? Have there been escalations in conflict before some of these quarantine measures were being more taken into account since we last talked along the border between Israel and Palestine, or (occupied) Palestinian territory?

Shakir: With respect to the Gaza Strip, there was a period earlier in the year with low-grade hostilities between both sides (Federman, 2020f; The Associated Press, 2020c; The Associated Press, 2020d). There were some explosive devices being sent off from Gaza (U.N. News, 2020) and measures by the Israeli’s being taken on restrictions on a fishing zone and a number of permits being given (Federman & Akram, 2020). We have seen those sorts of actions being taken. But there have been on-and-off situations, interim agreements reached, reportedly reached between the sides. Those took place earlier in the year. Things have, obviously, shifted, now, with some of the restrictions taken around the coronavirus.

Jacobsen: What will be the likely policy and political outcomes over the term of, another term of, Benjamin Netanyahu?

Shakir: It is quite clear. Over the course of over a decade of Prime Minister Netanyahu’s rule, his government has pursued a policy seeking to only further entrench and make permanent Israel’s rule over millions of Palestinians in the West Bank and control over the populations in Gaza (Goldenberg, 2020b; Goldenberg, 2020c). In the elections, he made crystal clear his intention to annex settlements to Israel, all settlements, and to continue and maintain restrictions in place against Palestinians (Goldenberg, 2020b). Over the course of the decade, we’ve seen increasing attacks on human rights groups and on critics of Israeli government policy (Human Rights Watch, 2018; Human Rights Watch, 2019a; Human Rights Watch, 2019b; Human Rights Watch, 2020). It is quite likely that those will continue and potentially intensify.[9] There have been several election cycles now, where the Netanyahu government, their coalition partners, and even other parties, have engaged in regular race-baiting and expressed a total disregard for international law and norms (Weiss, 2020; Hodgkins, 2019; Dugard, 2019). All indications are that these abusive policies could very well continue under a Netanyahu government.

Jacobsen: There’s been much commentary around the “Deal of the Century” of the Trump Administration (White House Staff, 2020; Heller & Lee, 2020; Daraghmeh & Akram, 2020). There has also been counter-commentary comparing setup, the eventual setup that would be the setup on this, to the Bantustans of apartheid South Africa (Jabari & Smith, 2020). What are some of your thoughts on this “Deal of the Century” (Jacobsen, 2020)?

Shakir: Look, the Trump plan seeks to make permanent Israel’s discriminatory rule over Palestinians (Ibid.). It is presenting the repressive status quo as a final solution. It is quite clear the Israeli policy towards Palestinians has been about boxing them into dense population centers and maximizing the land on the West Bank for illegal Israeli settlements (Ibid.). This policy would, essentially, put the United States’ stamp, which has already been firmly placed through decades of support and decades of unwillingness to use leverage to stop policies on the one-state reality on the ground today where Israel effectively rules the entire area from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea, and discriminates institutionally against the Palestinians, treats them unequally in all these areas, and ensures the control and domination by Jewish-Israelis, this would lock in that reality (Ibid.).

Jacobsen: In the case of an outbreak of COVID-19 or SARS-CoV-2, what will be the political fallout of that over time, potentially?

Shakir: I think it is difficult to predict. This is, in many ways, a fast moving and unprecedented sort of development. There have been efforts by some Israeli political forces to use the outbreak of COVID-19 as a way to establish a unity government between the Blue and White Party and the Likud Party (Heller, 2020c). Those efforts, at the time of recording, have not yet materialized. It is certainly possible that the imperative of dealing with this situation could, particularly if things continue to escalate, create a situation in which it facilitates a unity-type government. Certainly, with regards to human rights situation the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, the poor state of healthcare, in particular in the Gaza Strip as a result of decades of restrictions on movement of people and goods and the occupation more generally, makes Gaza more susceptible to a large-scale type crisis should the virus make its way into the Gaza Strip, particularly in its refugee camps (The Associated Press, 2019; The Associated Press, 2018). There are, obviously, some in the West Bank as well. In many cases, the virus around the world has affected vulnerable populations, be they minorities, elderly or refugees. Certainly, it raises the real risk that these communities would face heightened challenges should this virus continue to spread.

Jacobsen: What should we be paying more attention to between March and April looking forward?

Shakir: I think right now the world’s attention is around containing this virus. I think the key things to look for in this period, obviously, will be Israeli government formation and what that might mean for the human rights situation for Palestinians, annexation, and the situation in Gaza. Will we see COVID-19 make its way into Gaza? Will the crisis continue to develop across the world and in Israel and Palestine? Also, of course, we have the International Criminal Court studying the question of jurisdiction over Palestine in light of the prosecutor’s request. A decision on jurisdiction could come in the spring, although that could very well drag out further.   

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Omar.

Shakir: Alright! Thank you.

Previous Sessions (Chronological Order)

Interview with Omar Shakir – Israel and Palestine Director, Human Rights Watch (Middle East and North Africa Division)

HRW Israel and Palestine (MENA) Director on Systematic Methodology and Universal Vision

Human Rights Watch (Israel and Palestine) on Common Rights and Law Violations

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 1 – Recent Events

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 2 – Demolitions

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 3 – November-December: Deportation from Tel Aviv, Israel for Human Rights Watch Israel and Palestine Director

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 4 – Uninhabitable: The Viability of Gaza Strip’s 2020 Unlivability

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 5 – The Trump Peace Plan: Is This the “The Deal of the Century,” or Not?

Addenda

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) Addendum: Some History and Contextualization of Rights

Other Resources Internal to Canadian Atheist

Interview with Dr. Norman Finkelstein on Gaza Now

Extensive Interview with Gideon Levy

Interview with Musa Abu Hashash – Field Researcher (Hebron District), B’Tselem

Interview with Gideon Levy – Columnist, Haaretz

Interview with Dr. Usama Antar – Independent Political Analyst (Gaza Strip, Palestine)

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[1] For more information, the 5th session in this educational series seems the aptest for updates up to and including the middle of February. See Jacobsen (2020).

[2] Election results showed the following outcomes by the party and the parenthetical numbers of seats won, given by the most recent (of several) elections:

  1. Likud (36)
  2. Blue & White (33)
  3. Joint List (15)
  4. Shas (9)
  5. Yisrael Beiteinu (7)
  6. United Torah Judaism (7)
  7. Labour-Gesha-Meretz (7)
  8. Yemina (6)

Central Elections Committee. (2020, March 2). Elections for the 23rd Knesset. Retrieved from https://bechirot23.bechirot.gov.il/election/english/Pages/default.aspx.

[3] There has been substantial and strong rhetoric in the midst of this interim period, circa the time of the interview:

“Netanyahu: The public atmosphere and the threats worry every national leader,” he said, pointing his finger forward. “The incitement is raging everywhere and you are silent.”

“I won’t allow you to sow fear. I won’t allow you to turn man against his brother. I won’t allow you to bring about modern Israel’s first civil war in return for a ticket out of your trial,” he added. “Your regime has trampled all norms.”

Also, Netanyahu remains in difficulties in terms of criminal charges and legal issues:

Netanyahu is scheduled to go on trial next week to face corruption charges of fraud, breach of trust and accepting bribes. Israel’s longest-serving leader is desperate to remain in office, because installing a new government would give him an important political boost and potentially allow him to legislate his way out of the legal quagmire.

On Monday, Amit Haddad, one of Netanyahu’s lawyers, said he would seek a delay in the start of the trial. He said the request was “technical” and meant to give the defense time to review investigative materials that it still has not received.

The main question, at the time of the Heller reportage, remained who would lead the coalition between the Blue & White Party and the Likud, and the specific length for the initial leadership. See Heller (2020a).

[4] Duly note, there have been significant issues with the security for Benny Gantz of the Blue & White Party because of the continual and growing acrimony between the Blue & White Party and the Likud with each successive election. Gantz faced death threats and received increased security. See Heller (2020b).

[5] With ongoing issues around the charges against Benjamin Netanyahu, the death threats against Benny Gantz, human rights violations with the illegal settlements in the West Bank, the perilous potential for a calamity with SARS-CoV-2 entering Palestinian society, and the ongoing negotiations for the joining of the parties, the situations for human rights and for respect for international law may remain at its current standstill until the context becomes more stable.

[6] All countries once having a few cases continued to increase for some time with many on exponential, or worse, increases or curves in the number of the cases and, thus, the numbers of deaths due to the novel coronavirus.

[7]Harvard University (2020) stated:

COVID-19 will be defeated forever only when enough people develop immunity to it so that it can no longer spread easily from person to person, according to experts. This so-called “herd immunity” can happen in one of two ways. A vaccine—the preferred way—is at least a year away. The other way happens naturally, when a large percentage of the population becomes infected and develops antibodies to the disease that protect from reinfection. The problem with the second way is that many will die in the process. In addition, it’s unknown what percentage of the population needs to become infected to provide herd immunity. Even for those who have developed immunity, “we don’t know how effective it is or how long it will last,” said William Hanage. He said that, until a vaccine is available, repeated rounds of physical distancing may be needed.

See Harvard University T.H. Chan School of Public Health (2020).

[8] Israel stopped entry, at the time of the interview, to all internationals. See MEMO: Middle East Monitor (2020).

[9] That is to say, with the continual assault on international human rights, international humanitarian law, and the like, the trendline appears strongly in favour of the argument of a continuation of the breach of international law and the disregard for international human rights disproportionately by the Israeli government.

License

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Interview with Sigurður Rúnarsson on Icelandic and Norwegian Humanism

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/04/06

Sigurður Rúnarsson was born in Iceland in 1974 and works as a humanist officiant for both Siðmennt (The Icelandic Ethical Humanist Association) since 2013 and HEF (The Norwegian Humanist Association) from 2015. He was on the board of HEF in Drammen and Lier (Norway) local affiliate and served as a board member alternate for Buskerud county affiliate in Norway. He now lives in Oslo, Norway, but works both in Iceland and Norway.

Here we talk about some of the cultures of Norway and Iceland, and the ways in which this can be influential on the forms of humanism, gender equality progress, and the like.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: I went to Iceland last year in the Summer. All light during the day; mostly light-ish during the night with pubs and bars open until 4:00 am or later – completely baffling and incomprehensible to a North American and, as I was told by Europeans, to Europeans. Also, a super gender-equal country by most metrics, as I found out based on conversations with many Icelandic women and looking at the real statistics. The public opinion matches the statistical rankings of gender equality – truly a remarkable achievement. How does this gender equality and openness of the people and tourism create the basis for a global, internationalist outlook on the world in Iceland?

Sigurður Rúnarsson: We have been going from Christian opening hours to more normal humans [Laughing]…

Jacobsen: …[Laughing]…

Rúnarsson: …opening hours for restaurants and bars. So, that’s what really has been happening in Iceland for the last 30 years because we have been so tightly connected to the church, the state church. We cannot have restaurants, bars, and clubs open on Good Friday. We cannot have them open on Easter Day, and so on. Because we have been very tightly connected with the Christian religion and the church. So, to address that, it is the state furthering itself from the Christian values in many ways. Because when I was younger, we had to close at 2 o’clock or 3 o’clock. But it is getting longer and longer opening hours for the clubs. Things are changing. We are distancing ourselves from the religion.

Jacobsen: How is this influencing the way young people talk about religion?

Rúnarsson: In Iceland, and, actually, in Norway too, young people do not talk that much about religion. They’re not very connected with religion. Until, it comes to the age of about 14 years old, when they are supposed to be confirmed. Religion, for young people, if that’s the question, is not something people talk about or practice in Iceland. So, in many ways, it is like a private club somewhere in the background. There are some people practicing the religion. But many people who are doing that; they are doing this very privately. They don’t boast about it, don’t tell others about, even if they go to young Christian camps, which we still have. It is not very much spoken about. People don’t talk about it in school. It is a private thing. It is getting more and more unusual or special to be very religious in many ways. Young people try to steer away from talks.

Jacobsen: I want to focus on gender equality too. Because most religions through most of the last several thousand years have had an emphasis on not being fair or equal to women. Iceland, according to the World Economic Forum, has been the most gender-equal country in the world for many years, probably almost a decade straight. Obviously, this is a conscious move and affects culture. I can give a personal example. When I was in the pubs in Iceland, it was a common and casual thing: if a guy likes a gal, he buys her a drink, which is normal in North America and expected, but the reverse was also the case. If a girl liked a guy, she would buy him a drink. So, it was less a gender thing and more, “Do you like this person? Do you make an offer to them?” It was different. Is gender equality part of the erosion of religious traditionalism?

Rúnarsson: I think the short answer is, “Yes.” I think the long answer is, “Women don’t want to be owned anymore.”

Jacobsen: Right.

Rúnarsson: They don’t want to be in debt or get the feeling that they owe a man something because of all of the drinks. I think we have come so far in equality in Iceland. It is not about religion anymore. It is about the independence of the woman. The women, they are exactly the same free spirit as men. They can do what they like with their mind, body, and soul. They can have boyfriends and lovers. They can choose to buy a guy a drink. They don’t owe anybody anything. This is more to do with the independence of the woman. In the last years with the Me Too revolution, but it started much sooner in Iceland, women went out and fought for equal pay. They fought for an equal pension. All of those things. We have gone through them for the lost 30 or 40 years. You are seeing something today at the bars; a process that has been boiling for 40 or 50 years in Iceland. You are seeing very strong, independent women who take matters into their own hands. They go by the Iceland women’s strong spirit. Definitely, Iceland women possess it.

Jacobsen: At the University of Iceland bookstore, one of the gentlemen behind the counter recommended a book to me. I think it was called Independent People. I did buy it. It was by Laxness.

Rúnarsson: [Laughing] By Halldór Laxness, yes, winner of the 1955 Nobel Prize in Literature.

Jacobsen: I was told this was the most famous or prominent late/deceased author in Iceland. He told me, “This particular author really got the heart of what Iceland is, Icelandic people are, truly about.” I think it goes right to the point that you’re making in terms of the evolution over the last 30 to 40 years of independent people.

Rúnarsson: Yes.

Jacobsen: That really encapsulated a lot of my experience there. It really did.

Rúnarsson: I think, without being a book critic, and I have read this book, but not in recent years, that he is writing about how the men and the fathers control everything. In the book, in a clever way, he is talking about how the mothers and the women control a lot without it being at the forefront. So, women’s equality, he is dipping his toe into it. This is very early, the last century. So, he is, actually, describing the beginning of women’s evolution or revolution. I think, in many ways, Iceland as in other countries, like in Africa, and so on, the mothers have always controlled things a lot, e.g., the ‘big mommas’ or whatever you call this – when the mother controls the home, the food, the food supplies, the children, and the men are more outside working. This is very early 1920 to 1935, where this book is written and taking place in Iceland in the early 20th century. You can probably see this in the book. But I don’t have the details. This is starting there. I don’t know if this is the same feeling that you get. When we Icelanders read it, we definitely see a man writing the book. But he is definitely talking about how the mothers and grandmothers are teaching their children and grandchildren how to do their job, how to do the work of the farm, even speaking the Icelandic language correctly.

Jacobsen: Fishing still is a big, but was a much bigger, part of the economy.

Rúnarsson: Fishing hasn’t really reduced in the last 50 years. But we have had other export industries that have grown bigger. Fishing is as big as it was before. But we have had other IT, medical, and, of course, tourism, starting to be bigger than fishing export. Fishing is, definitely, as big as before. At least, we are catching as much cod as before. We have had other technological advantages, as well as tourism being much bigger in Iceland than it was.

Jacobsen: How about tourism? Is this a big industry and a way in which there’s an internationalist view of the world, but by Icelanders?

Rúnarsson: I don’t think so. I really don’t think so. I think Icelanders are very well informed. They watch a lot of foreign TV. We have always watched TV in the original language and with text instead of dubbing. We have seen a lot of TV from the States. We have seen a lot of TV from the UK. We have seen a lot of TV from the Nordic countries, from Germany. We are very well informed about international politics. I am not sure how big the tourism industry has done for us. I think this comes from within the Icelandic soul and from within the Icelandic culture. We’ve always been explorers in many ways. Before, we got a lot of our international information from Denmark because Denmark used to be our mother country until 1944. We had a Danish crown over us until 1944 in the Second World War. Copenhagen used to be our capital city. That’s just in recent years. For example, with my grandparents, they remember that. So, before, we got all the information from Scandinavia, mainly from Denmark. After the information revolution, we started to see Sky News, CNN, and Al Jazeera. We have Icelandic News Television. In many ways, we are interested in the world. We have always looked for information. We have never been closed in our small country.

Now, I am talking about the last 30 years. Before, we only got the information from the capital city of Copenhagen in Denmark. In the last 50 years, we’ve been educating our students abroad. We sent them to universities; or, they have chosen to go to universities abroad. They go on to academic teaching and working, e.g., doctors, historians, and whatnot. We are very interested in what’s happening in the world. We have always, some percentage of us, been up to date in everything in international politics. For example, let’s just say, India, everyone was watching what was happening when she was running for office or Putin when he was going from the presidency to be the prime minister and from being prime minister to being president. We were always watching international politics, of other countries. Let’s not forget the States, we are very interested in what happens in the States, in the pre-caucuses, and have been for many years. So, tourism is only expanding in the last 10, 15, or 20 years. I don’t think that we get our information from tourists or because of the tourists. I think we started much earlier doing that.

Jacobsen: What do you consider the sensibilities of Iceland that are easily aligned, now, with Humanism? What values of Iceland are similar to the values of Humanism?

Rúnarsson: I think, in many ways, my previous answer to the interest with international things, international politics and discussions, are also a primer to this. In many ways, we are very taken by technology, very taken by science in everything, of course, nature, and religion. You could say, “Where science deepens the theories of Christianity,” for example, “about the Earth, the weather, the plagues, medicine, and many things.” So, I think when you have a nation, which is much better than before. People start to wonder, “Why are we believing in a book – Bible (New Testament, Old Testament)?” It is just storybooks, like Hansel and Gretel. It is just storybooks. After they grow up, you could say; they grow out of this – we call it – “children’s belief in God.” Somehow, the children believe in God, but not the parents. But the parents allow them. I think many parents have, in many ways, relaxed about it. Because the parents found out when they grew up. They just went away from this religious belief and thing. Children, somehow, do this when they get older.  I think the answer is that people are aligning with the humanist take on life, the human, and the world – the mind, science, not least all the beautiful things in the world like music and art. We have a relaxed attitude against everything.

The humanists in Iceland are not very extreme. They take part in public talks about the church and religion, but not very extreme. They do a lot of services to the people or to their congregation. They do naming conventions, confirmations (coming of age), weddings and do funerals. They are providing these essential services and ceremonies to the people, where people can relax and go on with, if you can say, a typical ceremony without the burden of religion. I think, in many ways, Iceland started the humanist revolution in Iceland with – we call it – “a citizen confirmation,” where a 14-year-old girl. What do you call this in English, “Coming of age”? Many people were enlightened. They didn’t need to go through the church system or back to the church. Their parents hadn’t been in their church for many years. A part of the success of the humanists in Iceland and the reason that people are aligning with them is that they have a relaxed attitude against procedures and religion. But they are still doing ceremonies in a way that the people want to have them done. Siðmennt humanists have taken a position in some cases on assisted death, opening hours of public places that I mentioned at the beginning of the interview – opening hours of restaurants and bars, how we are not able to play Bingo on Friday and such.

They have been trying to take part in public discussions and telling the governments to relax a little bit with the old law that banned this and that on Easter days and Christmas days. For example, there are not many years since we weren’t allowed to have restaurants open on Christmas Day. Then we had already started Christmas trips to Iceland for foreigners. We have had problems finding a restaurant for travellers.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Rúnarsson: Because out of religious belief, we are not allowed to be open on Christmas Day, Long Friday, and Easter Day, and so on. So, it was very strange, very old-fashioned thinking. We needed to correct it; and, we did. So, it is much better now. The humanists have been taking a lead in some or, actually, many of the discussions, where rules and regulations are still built on church rules or religious rules. I think humanists are aligned with the thinking of many people in Iceland. I think that’s part of the magic that has happened with the humanists in the later years.

Jacobsen: How is the humanist community in Norway?

Rúnarsson: The humanist community in Norway is big and well known amidst the Norwegian people. The Norwegian Humanist Association has, as of 2018, over 90,000 members registered in the organization.

Jacobsen: How is the humanist community in Iceland? How do these two compare to one another?

Rúnarsson: In March 2007 a giant step towards this goal was taken when Baard Thalberg, one of the leaders/trainers at the Norwegian Humanist Association’s ceremonies service came and held a training program for Icelandic celebrants. The course was aimed primarily at training celebrants for secular funerals but also covered baby namings and weddings. Of the 10 Icelanders who undertook this training, 6 of them became the first official Siðmennt celebrants when our ceremonies service was inaugurated in May 2008. Siðmennt has run several training programs in recent years and now has 25 celebrants.

Jacobsen: How does one become a humanist officiant?

Rúnarsson: I got to know of humanist ceremonies through my upbringing in Reykjavik. Siðmennt  – the Icelandic Ethical Humanist Association was founded in February 1990, a year after a group organized the first coming of age education program or civil confirmation (Icel. borgaraleg ferming) in Iceland.

Even though, I did not take part in their ceremony; I always found this new approach to teenagers fascinating and heard of many that went through their course.

Later, Siðmennt started offering celebrant for civil funerals and weddings. And it was in 2010 that my brother and his fiancée where married in a humanist ceremony at Geysir in Iceland by a humanist celebrant on behalf of Siðmennt.

In 2013 I was working at a funeral home as a funeral director as I hade done from 1990 when I was 16 years old in my family business.

That year we got surprisingly many requests for funerals without priests or a church being involved. We arranged for that and some ceremonies were conducted by a humanist celebrant and somewhere just conducted by us, the funeral directors and family member. After this experience, I contacted Siðmennt and met with them. I signed up for the course they were starting for new humanist celebrants in the fall of 2013 and graduated a few months later with a diploma and a license from the Icelandic government, arranged for by Siðmennt as a registered secular life stance organization, to officiate weddings. The following week I got my first chance to conduct a funeral for a woman and soon after that, I had my first naming convention for a young girl. This was the start of my career as a humanist officiant both in Iceland and Norway.

I’m still doing humanist ceremonies today. 2019 was a very busy year for me as I conducted over 20 humanist ceremonies in Iceland and Norway, both wedding and naming conventions, where over 70 children got a name. 2020 is already looking to be the busiest as I have 10 weddings already booked until Christmas 2020.

More ceremonies will follow, but naming ceremonies in Iceland tend to be booked with very short notice.

The custom in Iceland for naming ceremonies is to hold one ceremony for every child, and they are either held in the home of the parents or family member or in a small venue like a hotel or community halls.

In Norway the procedure is different. There the parent’s book in advance on one of the prearranged naming convention days of one of the local branches of the Human-Etisk Forbund (The Norwegian Humanist Association) and up to 10 children are joined with parents and family in a public ceremony in one of the community halls.

Jacobsen: What makes a humanist ceremony aligned with the principles of Humanism? What are the necessities and negotiables of humanist ceremonies?

Rúnarsson: People can choose ceremonies, which are purely secular or those which also contain Humanistic values. Our naming conventions do not involve inducting the child into our life stance organization, the way baptism involves induction into a religious organization. Siðmennt discourages people from enrolling babies and children into life stance organizations until the age of 16. For this reason, our civil confirmation program does not require joining Siðmennt and is open to everyone. Neither our naming conventions nor our confirmations require any oath or commitment to follow any leader or accept any dogma, as is done in Christian confirmations.

Siðmennt supports human dignity, human rights, and a broad-minded diverse secular society.

Jacobsen: What have been some intriguing requests and outcomes for some humanist ceremonies?

Rúnarsson: The vast and changeable nature of Iceland, the venues in Iceland, the clothes we the celebrants wear. Standing on a stone or a cliff, near bubbling volcanic waters and blue lagoons, the gazing wind, the rain and snowstorm, performing and conducting the ceremonies in sync with the magnificent nature and unpredictable and ever-changing weather.

Over 50% of weddings conducted by Siðmennt, in 2019, was for foreign citizens travelling for the sole purpose of getting married there. Many of them only travel alone and have nobody from their family or friends circle.

Jacobsen: Any final feelings or thoughts in conclusion based on the conversation today?

Rúnarsson: Many of the things that I have already said also apply with Norway. I think, in many ways, this is Scandinavian thinking. Of the four Nordic countries, Denmark and Sweden have not gone as far as Iceland and Norway. So, but there is more to be done in this part of the world, the humanists in Scandinavia and the Nordic countries need to work more together and put pressure on governments to relax in the same way that the governments in Norway and Iceland have done. That’s probably my special take on the matter because I worked in Norway and Iceland.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Sigurður.

Rúnarsson: Sure! You can find more information here: https://Siðmennt.is/english/history/.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Extensive Interview with Gideon Levy

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/04/03

Gideon Levy is an Israeli Author and Journalist, and a Columnist for Haaretz. He has earned several awards for human rights journalism focusing on the Israeli occupation of the Occupied Palestinian Territories or the OPT (or oPt). Language recognized in the work of the OHCHRAmnesty InternationalOxfam InternationalUnited NationsWorld Health OrganizationInternational Labor OrganizationUNRWAUNCTAD, and so on. Some see the Israeli-Palestinian issue as purely about religion. Thus, this matters to freethought. These ongoing interviews explore this issue in more depth.

Here we talk about coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2)/COVID-19, Israeli elections, medical infrastructure or lack thereof, coronavirus on the ground, and a lot more.

*Interview conducted on March 28, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Last time we talked was May​ (2019)​​​​, there have been some general changes. Some have been game-changers with coronavirus giving symptoms of COVID-19. Perhaps, we can start with that as the most pressing thing based on its global scope and hitting the general territories (oPt) as well as Israel. With regards to the coronavirus with Israel, what is the situation on the ground? What has been some of the reaction of the authorities?

Gideon Levy: I think there has been confusion and some sense of fear. A lot is unknown, like any other place. With some more hysteria, which is typical to Israelis and going from one extreme to the other, we are really in the middle of it. So, no one can really judge. What is it? What will be the outcomes? What will be the consequences? It is too early to judge. The government and the politicians​ are using it for their own purposes. Obviously, for me, personally, it was a reminder for the Israelis to the conditions that we are enforcing on the Palestinians, because, now, we are in a kind of closure, which, in many cases, is the best that the Palestinians can dream about in many times in history. But maybe this, but this is just a sidekick. Maybe, this will make more Israelis understand how the Palestinians live under our occupation.

Jacobsen: Have you heard or read anything in terms of the reaction on the oPt side, whether through some of the work, brave work, of Amira Hass or others?

Levy: First of all, Amira Hass is not in the country now. I know very little, but I understand that everything is very similar there. They are also living under fear, in many ways. There is isolation. There is some kind of closure. The big issue is Gaza, not the West Bank. Because if God forbid, if it happens in Gaza, then it might develop into an unbelievable catastrophe, unbelievable disaster because, in Gaza, you cannot isolate anybody. You don’t have ventilators. You don’t have anything. You don’t have the infrastructure for fighting the coronavirus. Right now, things are on hold. I don’t think much is happening.

Jacobsen: Is one of the main reasons for the lack of infrastructure, medical infrastructure, in Gaza due to the blockade?

Levy: It’s not one of the reasons. It is the reason. Undoubtedly, it is almost 13 years of closure​.​ After 13 years of remarkable brave behaviour of the medical teams there, ​those ​who​,​ don’t forget, had to deal with bloodshed in certain periods and with very, very little means. For sure, anything that happens today in Gaza is due to the closure. Gaza is a cage. Life in a cage can be only like life in a cage.

Jacobsen: Last time we talked, also, you were very explicit about: the two-state solution is dead. And that the main orientation from your own professional opinion is that it should be a one-state perspective, and then a question as to what kind of state it will be. Have you had any developments in that opinion since May of 2019?

Levy: Unfortunately, not, because the issue is totally off the table, we had some time when there were some talks about the “deal of the century,” which just ​​enforced me. Because the “deal of the century” was the final funeral of the two-state solution. If anybody needed proof of the fact that there is no chance for a two-state solution, ​then ​came the American plan, it showed it clearly. This was a clear plan for annexation. But all this is now off the table because nobody talks about it. Nobody deals with it. Right now, everything is about the coronavirus.

Jacobsen: What about the numbers on the ground for the coronavirus? How is the testing? How are the cases in terms of critical/serious cases or mortalities?

Levy: It is growing like any other place. I think the coming days are very critical because, if it will not be stopped, they will have to take more serious measures. Namely, to tighten the closure even more than it is, it will, obviously, have a lot of economical and other effects. We have already within weeks. We are facing 21% [Ed. circa March 27, 2020] unemployment from a figure of 4% or 5%. We are having over 700,000 unemployed, declared unemployed, people. It all goes to very dangerous directions. The question is, “What will be in those days?” Right now, there are 11 death cases, which is rather low. But the figures of those who got the disease is tripling every 2 or 3 days.

Jacobsen: You mentioned the known “unemployed.” What about those who are not registered as unemployed? They are not necessarily on the books – so to speak. Would things be worse if they were taken into account – if there are such numbers on that?

Levy: No, they ​are not taken into account. They will not be compensated. Here, again, we fail the weakest parts of society. Namely, the asylum seekers, African asylum seekers, who have no rights. Obviously, tens of thousands of Palestinians who came to work here every day. Most of them are prevented now. No one will compensate them. Over the long run, this could become a catastrophe.

Jacobsen: You have been reporting on the African asylum seekers for some time now. From their perspective, what is their attitude about the institutional treatment around compensation before the coronavirus became an issue, and leading up to it?

Levy: First of all, the figures, Israel has really minimized their numbers to something around 30,000 asylum seekers. It’s much less than ever before. We had 60,000, 70,000, and 100,000. They succeeded to deport, to convince, anything possible to get rid of them. Really, it is only about 30,000 people who are really nothing. It is a tiny minority. For those people, even for those people, Israel is not ready to be generous and human enough to take some minimal measures like giving them possibilities to make their living. They deposit some of their income. They are obliged to deposit some of their income at the government until they’re leaving. Now, when they are unemployed, the most natural things are to freeze some of those. It’s their money. They should get it. Until now, the government didn’t do anything about it.

Jacobsen: Any issue following from the economics is the issue around businesses. The United Nations Human Rights Council, as you know, released its report on 112 businesses around the world who are doing business on illegal settlements. 94 of which or of whom have been listed as Israeli. Others including places like Luxembourg, United Kingdom, United States, and so on, have companies doing business on that list. How is this impacting, in a positive manner, moving the dial towards justice and respecting international law rather than not?

Levy: It is still a very, very long way to go, but it is the first step. It is very hard, first of all, to separate companies making business in the occupied territories and companies making business with Israel​​ because occupied territories are part and parcel of Israel. You never know. Who doesn’t do business in the occupied territories? I can think only about McDonald’s, which decided not to have any branch in the occupied territories. But they are almost the only big company that I can think about; that wouldn’t work in the occupied territories directly or indirectly. This separation is very at issue. Finally, Israel is invested in the occupation project. All Israel, all Israelis, all Israeli companies, in one way or another, indirectly or directly, even my newspaper Haaretz (which is fighting the occupation like no other) sells the newspapers for the settlers. Even us, we are not completely clean because we have to survive somehow. It is a good beginning, though. I don’t want to underestimate it. It is a good beginning, but it is one way. Above all, it is not enough to have a list. It is enough to take measures.

Jacobsen: Has Amos Schocken given any statement on this?

Levy: No, not that I know, but Amos also has other troubles because if this situation goes on. Then we are all afraid about the future of the newspaper. This coronavirus will kill many institutions. I don’t know exactly the situation. I do not see any advertisement whatsoever. I don’t know how long it can survive in those conditions. I can just tell you. Amos Schocken, in the past, wrote an article favouring international pressure on Israel and international economical pressure on Israel, which are responsive. I am not sure if he is supporting BDS.

Jacobsen: I think this leads naturally to, not only social and political commentary but also, politics and governance. Israel had the election, recently, with the Blue and White Party and the Likud, basically, having an alliance set up with the front person, now, going to be Benny Gantz. What seems to have been the reasoning around this? What are the consequences for ways​ ​in which governance will be running forward through 2020 and some of 2021?

Levy: Gantz declared that he will join the Netanyahu government. This was very surprising for many people. Not least surprising, that I am supporting it, because I don’t see, now, any alternative except for more elections, which is really unbelievable. I mean, we cannot go for fourth elections. We have to pass this period of coronavirus with some kind of government. Therefore, I think he did the right step joining the Netanyahu government, because he had no option to create a government by himself. Above all, I am not sure if I see many, many dramatic differences between Netanyahu and Gantz when it comes to the major issues, like the occupation. Both are equally supporting the occupation. For me, the rest is much less important.   

Jacobsen: Is there any political party, whether they have a chance or not, that has any policy or platform piece that is favourable to the human rights and dignity of the Palestinian peoples in the occupied Palestinian territories?

Levy: Yes, there is one. This is the Joint List, which is mainly Palestinian, Israeli-Palestinians, Israeli citizens who are Palestinians. I must tell you. They are the third party in the Parliament. They had great success in the last elections. They have 15 seats out of 120. The only problem is, until now, that they were quite excluded from the political game. The influence is, therefore, very limited.

Jacobsen: You used the phrase “political game.” How, or in what ways, was this third party kept out of this political game?

Levy: They were treated as non-legitimate partners by almost ​all ​of the other parties. Netanyahu incited against them and called them “terrorist supporters.” Also, the other parties did anything possible to delegitimize them.

Jacobsen: What was the reference for “terrorist supporters” of Benjamin Netanyahu, when making that charge against them?

Levy: First of all, it doesn’t need any references. When you incite, you incite. You don’t need any facts for it. They have one section because it is a combination of 3 or 4 parties. One section is more nationalistic. Among them, there was one new member of Parliament who once posted or ​tweeted​​ some sentences that might be construed as supporting terror. It is all ridiculous, but it is incitement where facts are not relevant.

Jacobsen: Also taking another pivot into the international rights realm and the advocacy for rights realm, there are a few cases in, maybe, 2007/08 to present with either deportation​s​, travel bans, or restricted entries. Some individuals coming to mind would be Noam Chomsky, Norm Finkelstein, Laith Abu Zeyad, and Reps. Rashida Tlaib and Ilhan Omar. They’ve had, at least, one of those applied to them, in that period of time. Since our last conversation, in November, the Human Rights Watch Israel and Palestine Director, Omar Shakir, had his work permit revoked, what was the media conversation outside of Haaretz regarding this particular event? Basically, it resulted, at present, ​in ​Shakir working from Amman, Jordan.

Levy: It was mainly hardly covered, which is ​in ​many cases more criminal than being covered in a biased way. Because ignoring it is saying, “It is not important,” “not interesting,” or both​. It is the same, like with many other things concerning the occupation. The Israeli media just prevent any coverage by self-censorship, not that anyone pushes us to do so. But those issues, if not Haaretz, it is hardly discussed. When it comes to more famous figures like congresswomen who were banned here so obviously, it was also in the other media. But when it comes to the activists, even a Human Rights Watch representative, the coverage was poor. And it was a non-issue.

Jacobsen: Will this kind of action be extended into the future if there are no consequences for restriction on those who are either reporting on human rights violations or advocating for human rights?

Levy: Like many other things, it depends on one thing. Will the world let Israel go like this? If the American, the Canadian, or other governments don’t take measures, because this is the right of their citizens, if they don’t treat Israelis in the same way, then Israel will continue to do so. The day that it will change will be the day that Israelis will be treated the same and banned by entering the United States, Canada, or elsewhere. Until now, the governments in the West couldn’t care less about those cases. None were really protested or took any kind of measures. As long as this will continue, Israel will continue. Why not?

Jacobsen: If we look at a self-critical examination of the North American case, even, in particular, in the Canadian case, what is Canadian society, at least as you are aware, have read, have heard, doing right and doing wrong in regards to the human rights and international law norms in Israel or the occupied Palestinian territories?

Levy: I think there’s no argument about the fact that Israel is ignoring international law, maybe like ​no ​other country​ in the world: systemically, over a long, long period of time, just ignores international law. This really is the world’s fault, not less than Israel’s fault. Because by the end of the day, the world knew very well how to treat violations of human rights in other places on Earth. If the population of the West ​did not go ​against the apartheid system in South Africa, then the apartheid system in South Africa would last until this very moment. The question is, “Why, what was so evident in South Africa, is not existing when it comes to Israel?” Almost, the same kind of violation of human rights; the same kind of regime; the same kind of thinking. That there are two kinds of peoples. One has all the rights. The other should not get any rights. You see the world either apathetic, indifferent, or even continues to hug Israel, to see Israel ​as an ​outpost of the West, of Western values, in the Middle East. As long as this continues, as long as Israel is not punished, as long as Israel will not pay for the occupation, the occupation will last.

Jacobsen: If we look at American history, as we both know, it started – or recent pre-American history started – with a near-genocide of Native Americans, annexation of territorial lands, annexation of Mexican land, enslavement of different tribes of Africans forced to come from Africa to North America. In addition, in the Canadian case, with our first colony in New France, we had slaves. 2/3rds were Indigenous. There’s a long history of both the state sanction and church carrying out of things like Residential Schools as an extension of colonization. Is part of the national reluctance, of several countries to criticize the very obvious parallels in the Israeli-Palestinian issue, a reluctance based on the fact that a country or a nation has that history itself is applying the rights standards externally in the particular case that is ongoing, live, for more than half of a century then imply having to apply the same standards to their own situation and rights record that runs back farther?

Levy:  I am not sure. Because if this would be the case, how did the world react against South Africa? Why this didn’t appear then, emerge then? I think it has to do with history, but more with Jewish history. I think that guilt feelings of the world and, mainly, of Europe, obviously, toward the Jewish people have a bigger role, and the way Israel is manipulating those guilt feelings; together with the belief that Israel is a special case. Together with the unbelievable strategy of Israel. Namely, to convince the world – that is a normal success in recent years, to convince the world that any critique of Israel is anti-Semitism, and once you identify or label any criticism of Israel on the occupation as anti-Semitism, you paralyze almost ​any ​criticism of Israel. This was really successfully implemented in recent years. So, altogether, it has more to do with more than what you mentioned. Also, we cannot ignore Islamophobia, which is growing in the last decade playing into Israel’s hands. Because Israel says, “You see. We are facing those Islamists in our backyards.” Altogether, there are many, many factors because the question still stands, “How come the world continues to let the last colonial country continue?” How the world does so little? If you ask civil society, there is a clear majority all over the world resisting or being against the Israeli occupation. But when it comes to governments outside of lip service, you get nothing.

Jacobsen: Also, internationally, external to Israel, there was the issue around charges of rampant anti-Semitism within the Labour Party within the United Kingdom under Corbyn. That’s quite past some of our previous interview. However, just as a retrospective, what do you think can be learned in terms of how the public was told about this particular case and the reality of the case?

Levy: Look, I don’t live in the UK. I really don’t know how far anti-Semitism is in Labour. But I have no doubt knowing the actors. I have no doubt Israel, and the Jewish establishment and the Jewish lobby, did manipulate even this to the service of the Israeli propaganda. Corbyn, who had really a chance of changing the international discourse about Israel or, at least, to be the first important Western leader who would change the discourse throughout Israel, had no chance once Israel, the Zionists, the Jewish establishment, labelled him and his party as anti-Semitic, as an anti-Semitic party. Unfortunately, it was very, very effective. By this, I don’t mean to say that there is no anti-Semitism in The UK or in Labour. I guess​,​ there is. The first question is, “How deep, and how spread, is it?” The second question is, “Are you really convinced that what you call anti-Semitism is not just pure criticism about the Israeli occupation?” Those questions are not very clear.

Jacobsen: In your own opinion, what is a proper definition of anti-Semitism? What might be improper ones, where, for example, there’s an extension, as you were noting, to any criticism of Israeli policy then becomes tied to a charge of anti-Semitism, which would ignore the fact that there are Arab-Israelis?

Levy: So, first of all, it is very clear anti-Semitism should be fought and should be condemned. There is anti-Semitism. There was anti-Semitism. It brought, maybe, the ugliest phenomena in human history. No doubt about this. No doubt about the role of anti-Semitism in World War II, in the Holocaust. Even after, having said this, this does not mean that any criticism of Israel or even on Jews is not legitimate. When it gets to generalization or prejudice, like any racism, then it is unacceptable, like any other kind of racism, like Islamophobia, but when it comes to criticism about Israel, about Zionism, what is more legitimate than criticizing Zionists? What does this have to do with anti-Semitism if someone thinks that Zionism is a form of colonialism? What is legitimate? What is illegitimate in fighting against the Israeli occupation in any way, which is a non-violent way, like calling for boycotting Israel? What is not legitimate in this? What does this have to do with anti-Semitism? You have the right to boycott sweatshops in far East Asia because of their morality, or lack of morality. You have the full right to boycott the meat industry because you believe animal rights are violated. Why don’t you have the full legitimacy, right, and, in my view, duty​,​ to fight against the Israeli occupation?

Jacobsen: Also, on another note, we were talking before, in May, I think, about 12 or 11 months out of some of the therapies, which you had for​ another instance of cancer. How is your health now?

Levy: I am okay. As far as I know, there are no checkups. But I hope I am okay.

Jacobsen: Good, I’m glad. Have there been any individuals or books that have shed an interesting and unique, or simply a novel, light on the Israeli-Palestinian issue or on Israeli society that have come out since 2019 to now?

Levy: Not that I know. Not enough is written. Not enough is published, for sure not in Israel. Even Ilan Pappé’s classical book, The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, it was never published in Israel. So, not that I know.

Jacobsen: For those reading this when it eventually comes out, Gideon did correct me, last time. That the Israeli press is free, and so it’s private interest when beginning to have a bias. There’s no complicated situation there, in terms of the influence on media. Are there any topics that I’m not quite covering today?

Levy: Same as one year ago, and even worse. The occupation is not covered. The asylum seekers, their struggle is hardly covered. Anything which might bother the readers or the viewers will not be covered because of economical considerations, not because of any ideology. The Israeli media is very courageous when it comes to fighting corruption, when it comes to fighting the Israeli politicians, very independent, very powerful. When it comes to certain topics and above all the occupation, Israel is living in denial. This denial has a lot to do with the way that the occupation is covered by the Israeli media.

Jacobsen: Another thing, on the 28th of January, there was a press conference with ​(Israeli) ​Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and​ (U.S.)​ President Donald J. Trump without any Palestinian representatives at the time. There is an optics matter there, as well as simply how things play ​out ​matter as well. The Trump peace plan, the mid-east plan, or the “Deal of the Century,” what is its status within the Israeli political scene? What will be the outcome of this? As far as I know, I think, one The Associated Press article reported 94% of Palestinians based on a survey rejected the plan, which is overwhelming.

Levy: I don’t know about the 6% who is supporting it. I am sure there is some error. Because there is not one single Palestinian who can support this plan. It is not a peace plan. As I said before, it is an annexation plan. But in any case, it is off the table right now. If Donald Trump will not be re-elected, then it will be totally forgotten. If he will be re-elected, then it will be back on the table, but not before the upcoming elections in the United States. Anyhow, this would not lead to anything but annexation.

Jacobsen: Something I hear and read a lot of in some of the secular communities are the influence of the fundamentalist Evangelical Christians – some – within the United States of America, and different factions of those with somewhat similar ties in Canadian society. What is the real influence of, broadly speaking, some sectors of fundamentalist Christianity with political aims on Israeli society?

Levy: You mean Christian religious movements.

Jacobsen: Yes, fundamentalist in particular.

Levy: They have very little ties with Israel. In Israel, they are quite involved in the settlement project. They are even sending all kinds of lunatic volunteers to help the settlements, even in settlement work and in the fields. Their main influence is within the United States and, maybe, even Canada. Their main influence is there, not here. They are one of the main powers, which shape the American policy toward Israel.

Jacobsen: Who are the other ones?

Levy: I guess, the evangelists, the military establishment, the weapons industry, and, obviously, the Jewish community.

Jacobsen: In some prior commentary, if I recall correctly, you were making some mentions in an interview in late 2019 about Benjamin Netanyahu evading justice in various ways, but, inevitably, this would not be an indefinite evasion. What – if I am completely misrepresenting, please just tell me, but if I am remembering this right – was meant by those just general sentiments? And what would be the timeline in non-indefinite evasion?

Levy: For Netanyahu, look, for me, this is a minor issue. But he has to go to court. No doubt about it, like any other citizen. He does anything possible, and even more so, to avoid it. He did so much until now. Right now, I am not sure if he will get to court at all. He is really a magician, super-magician – manipulations, of political maneuvers. Until now, he was very successful in postponing his trial, including this coronavirus, which, by all means, he has nothing to do with it. But he is using it so well for his own personal interests. Until now, very successfully.

Jacobsen: There have been some cases of coronavirus, I believe, in Palestinian territories. Have these​ raised hairs for you?

Levy: Look, there are no borders to the coronavirus. There is even one dead person already in the West Bank. I didn’t get into it because I can’t go there, ever since it started with isolation and closure. Also, I have to take of myself. But by the end of the day, there are no borders here. The only difference is that the conditions there are much, much poorer. My main, main, main concern is Gaza. I do not want to think about Gaza under epidemic. This will be a catastrophe. I really cross my fingers that the 2, maybe 3, cases found in Gaza are the last ones. Because if it is there, then we will see something that we didn’t see anywhere else. Because there isn’t any other cage anywhere else in the world.

Jacobsen: If I recall ​some commentary on a report on Gaza, for the 2,000,000 people there, they have only 60 intensive care beds. That’s nothing.

Levy: Right, and, therefore, the concern is so great.

Jacobsen: Any final feelings or thoughts in conclusion based on the conversation today?

Levy: No, except for being interesting, nothing more.

Jacobsen: Sir, thank you so much, I’m glad you’re doing well.

Levy: I’m very happy. And we’ll do it again if you wish.

Jacobsen: I’d be pleased and honoured.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Interview with Arantxa León on Central American Religious Experiences – Master’s Student, Socioreligion, Genders and Diversities

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/04/01

Arantxa León is a Master’s student in socioreligion, genders and diversities. Here we talk about the research on religion in Central America.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What is the main question within the research for you?

Arantxa León: I will give some information to make this easy to understand why I asked this specific thing [Laughing]. I was in university. It was six years ago. Something like that. We were doing research about how teenagers stick with his or her mother. So, we asked some things like, “What was the main thing that you discussed with your mother?” Things like that. They said, “My mother is so annoying, she doesn’t let me go to parties,” or something like that. We were really surprised that they said, “My mother doesn’t let me go to church.” We say, “Okay?” [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

León: One says, “My mother drinks beer on Fridays. I don’t like it.” You are 17. So, maybe, this is weird for us. We began to think about this. I remember that in the history. Sometimes, you have the concept circling back. You go far, go back, go far, and then go back. It is like a circular trip. I think, “Maybe, this generation is thinking to go back to church, back to religion, again. Because we have a period of time, where people went far away.” That’s why I started thinking, “I will see why young people are going to church.” I gathered 12 young people. 6 are going to different churches, 3 Roman Catholic and 3 Evangelical. I began to ask them some things about their experience. When the research came to an end, they all go to churches and have a religion. I chose 4 of them, who I realized have real trouble in this society. They have real ideas about human rights, abortion, marriage, etc. They said, “I am okay with it. My church is not.” I am sure how to deal with that information. I choose from the 6 people who have these characteristics. I started to see their past few years, how they understand that, and their thoughts about that.

Some of them realized that their religion was not the best for them. Yet, they still believed something different while attending the church. Others, 2 of them, decided, “No! I am okay with my religion. My religion gives me things that I want. But I am not okay about everything in my religion.” It was really interesting. My main question was to understand how people face these different thoughts between what they believe on a personal ground and what the church said to them; that they had to believe. It was about human rights. That’s some of the research.

Jacobsen: In your undergraduate work, you looked at religious phenomena through the lens of psychological science, as well as taking into account the political context of Costa Rica. What is the significance of religion in Central America?

León: I think it is really difficult to think of Central America as a homogeneous region because we are really different. Costa Rica really stands out in the region. Costa Ricans, we are a confessional state. I don’t know if you know that.

Jacobsen: No, I don’t.

León: So, we are the only one in all of Central America. It means the country has a state religion. In our case, it is the Catholic Church. It is about in vitro, abortion, and so on. Those are opposed by the Catholic Church. For example, until last year, there was the day after pill. Even in the case of rape, you could not take it. We are different than other countries in that specific way. We are like 100 or more years behind other countries in Central America. It is different in other cases. Things like education, like health. We are very advanced in those, but we are not in terms of human rights. I cannot talk about Central America in its entirety. But also, something that we are speaking about now. The recent political parties have been allied with really radical Evangelical courts. Partisans and populists are really Evangelical. This is something that is happening more in the region. It is happening more in Guatemala, El Salvador, Colombia, even Brazil in South America. So, that is something that is really dangerous. We are trying to figure out how that happened [Laughing]. Costa Rica is part of that. So, my hypothesis, in that case, is that the Evangelical churches arrived where the government hasn’t, in some of our countries. That’s because the church has a really foundational role in our communities. They have free social activities and provide them with food, sometimes a house. Things like that. So, I think the church and, specifically, the Evangelical church has reached where the government hasn’t, doesn’t want to, or have the goal to give it.

Jacobsen: What about Costa Rica, in particular, as it regards religious experience? So, you have a political context in Central America. You have a unique context with a confessional state. Then you have a religious population that identifies with the tenets of Catholicism, by and large, and then have them bolstered by something that cannot be questioned through scientific, objective inquiry for most people. By which I mean, they have a personal experience. They label this as proof for their religion. This becomes a motivation for their social and political views as well. When people have religious experiences in a Costa Rican context, how does this influence how they see the world, how they vote, how they live their lives?

León: In Costa Rica, it is different than other countries, as I told you. The other reason is in Costa Rica, I think, the vast majority of the people believe in a God. Like, everybody has to have the religious approach. Even if you do not believe, you will be around people who believe. You can, maybe, say, “I don’t believe.” People gasp. Maybe, you have to hide that part of you. There are people who are trying to say, “Yes, I believe. However, I have my own beliefs about some stuff.” People can be unsure about you while not knowing the religion for you. These religious values are important for the society. They think: if you are religious, then you are an honest person. You will be willing to help other people and will be a good person. If you do not believe, then you will be seen as a person who does not have the right values. Maybe, not a bad person, but a person who you can not believe in, or have confidence in them. It is difficult in Costa Rica here to say that you do not believe and do not have a religion. People are not doing activism about it. Maybe, most activists and those who do not believe exist in the feminist groups who are thinking about human rights, e.g., abortion, sex education, and things like that. That’s like the nearest approach for activism. Otherwise, you have to hide it. It is important to believe in Costa Rica, in our country. It is okay if people do not go to church ever. If you say, “I’m Catholic.” People think, “Okay!” But you have to say it, “I believe.” They think, “Yes, that’s good.” It is all of these things. It is different and is really interesting in the universities. As part of my research at the universities, if you believe, it can be something really bad; but out of the universities, if you believe, it is really okay. There are few places that you can be you if you do not believe. Most of the places, you cannot be yourself. It is difficult for young people.

Jacobsen: Another follow-up to that would be: if someone says, “I don’t believe in Catholicism. I am agnostic. I am a freethinker. I am a humanist. I am an atheist,” whatever it might be, how are they seen by the general culture?

León: Someone who does not have values. Someone who is not honest. Someone who is a person that you cannot trust. Someone who can’t be a friend because he will try to change your mind and your religion. Some people do not want to be near them. That’s why people do not identify as those as much. It is even more difficult in a social context. At work, maybe, or with family, it will be like, “Oh!” No one may be your friend. No one will talk to you. It is changing. But here in Costa Rica, it is very little steps. As I said, there are some places where it is okay. But I just heard a really sad story about a girl who is 14 or something like that. She said, “I do not believe in God,” in her school. People were like, “You are so bad,” and then bullied her. So, that’s what happens here in Costa Rica. You cannot say it.

Jacobsen: There’s different social treatment depending on what you believe.

León: Of course, of course, it will be tricky in some spaces or some places. Maybe, if you are going with your family, please don’t tell them, they might not want you back. People will say, “Please don’t tell dad or mom, or my friends,” because you will be treated differently. It is a bad thing here.

Jacobsen: I have heard that same story all over the world. It doesn’t matter if a rich country or a poor country. It is the same phenomenon. It depends on the laws and the social privileges of the religious. In general, though, there is always a backlash. The kind of it and the strength of it depends on the culture and the laws. What are religious experiences from a scientific view? What are religious experiences from a cultural, Costa Rican view?

León: As I understand religious experiences, they are an individual experience. But it is collective, as it is understood collectively. Here in Costa Rica, they are seen as good experiences, which help people in some way. I believe in an objective way: religion is here for a reason. There is a reason why. If religion doesn’t work, then the religion wouldn’t be there. For some people, it is an important part of their lives. It gives them hope and some material things. Maybe, if you are a poor family, then the church will help you. It is important for them. If you are a teenager, then there is a space for culture and art, as it is expensive to do anything here. So, for young people, it is like, “Wow! There is a space near my house where I can go and see other people.” They do parties, the way they do them, but they do them. I can talk with other people, meet with other people. Maybe, I can play an instrument or help with a younger child. Something like that. There’s a really good experience for them because the church and the religion gives them the kind of things that they can’t have in other spaces. Also, there are really bad experiences about feeling bad about themselves because religion says they are wrong. That you will never be liked. That you are really a bad person. But at the same time, it is like, “God loves you,” but you are a bad person. You don’t deserve anything in your life. It depends on the individual experience. It depends on the religion and the church, specifically, where you are going. Also, it depends on individual experience before. So, it is different for everyone. I can’t tell you, “Religion is all good or all bad,” because it is a personal thing based on researching.

Jacobsen: When you are looking at these 4 individuals in the graduate research, what are their demographics? What is a common theme in their stories?

León: They are young people. They are between 18 and 23. Their life experience is emerging adulthood. They are at the university. Same, I think, as in other countries. Here in school, you have to be in religious classes (Catholic religious classes). You have to believe. If you do not believe, then you still have to attend all of the classes. It is still very difficult. Then you go to the university. There are a lot of professors who say, “I am a freethinker. I am a humanist.” Something like that. You open your mind to other things. For people who went to the universities, some of them went to the public universities. Some of them went to the private universities. They are different from each other. They are like middle-class people. They are women and men. I think that’s the graphic. They are from San Jose, too. The common theme is that they have issues about inclusion and human rights. It has to do with their careers and their group of friends too. They have issues about it. Because, of course, the Catholic Church, “You can’t include everyone,” for example, homosexual people, or people in the LGBTIQ community, etc., or some groups. You can’t have an abortion or something like that. It is like the common theme in the stories. They are not sure about what to do with what they’re doing because they believe in god. It is really interesting because some of them believe in god because of his/her father or mother, or even their grandparents. Also, 2 of them, it was something that they started to believe when they were teenagers. Their close group of friends, at the moment, believed. They started to attend the church, even when the mother or the father was more like a part of that. One of their mothers is an atheist. She is at the point in life, where church is not that good for her. That’s the main topic. That they don’t know if one way or another, or just to be in the middle. They have really different stories. They started different things in different universities. Everything is different [Laughing] from one person to the other, but the common thing is them being in the middle and then trying to decide.

Jacobsen: Other than impressions, what are the emotions or thoughts that these people are telling or conveying in their transition from religion to non-religion?

León: First, there is a lot of confusion because they free thinking about what they thought that they believed. It is a really confusing time of their lives. Also, there is the position that to not believe is fully against what they learned over several years. It is like, “Well, maybe, I was just thinking that this was the right thing for me, for like 5, 6, 11 years. Now, I am thinking, ‘It isn’t for me.’ It was a dogma moment of life.” Also, they experience a lot of fear, for different things. First, they are not sure what will happen to them because they are not sure if there is a life after this life. So, it is like, “Oh, maybe, I will go to hell because I do not believe. They told me for 20 years that I will go to hell. I was never sure of that. I will never be sure of that.” They experience a lot of fear and, also, have a lot of fear about what the other people will say to them. The people in the church who they grew up with. They will feign saying, “Oh! I am going to another church.” Because they don’t want people to think, “Oh, he/she is a bad person.” They cannot be real with the people around them. Also, with their families, they say, “Oh! I cannot go to church because I have a lot of homework.” The family will say, “Oh, yes, you haven’t gone in like 2 years” [Laughing]. They have experienced these kinds of things. Also, they have a fear of being alone. But also, when the time passes, and then they start to believe in realizing what is happening, and start to read about it, and get more information, they feel satisfaction about the decision that they are making. They feel more free to really have their own thoughts and to do those things that feel right rather than the things that other people say are right. I think everyone will have a happy ending, I hope. Some of them are experiencing this in this moment. Some of them aren’t. I always think one of the them may return to church because I see this as always a possibility; because it is really difficult for them. Maybe, the easiest way for them is simply to return. It will be right for them.

Jacobsen: Those will be common stories. I have seen them. Individuals will leave a faith, then will have difficulties professionally and personally. In the professional sphere, they experience lack of promotions, harassment, condescending comments. In personal life, a lot of the same stuff, but without the boundaries of discourse and conduct that professional life puts on others. So, they are subject to more visceral forms of prejudice, bigotry, hate, bias, appeals to emotion, evangelism, and then the ironic claim that they themselves are not allowed to talk to the people who are evangelizing about their faith. It becomes a one-sided issue. That steadfastness becomes an important marker, I think. It becomes a marker of being solid in oneself. I noticed the dropping of fear in the commentary there. It becomes an important point at which people do not have to fear others or, from their view, now, an imaginary realm of hellfire and demons and angels, and blessings and curses, and so on.

León: I feel like it’s really important that I was reading a lot of papers. There is something that happened at this point in their lives, their journeys. But when they have a real couple or even kids, they return to that because it is the way that society tells them. They are only a good couple or a good dad in this way. It is always tricky. You will never be like in a comfortable situation in society, as someone who does not believe.

Jacobsen: How can someone challenge a confessional state to make it not a confessional state?

León: That’s really difficult. 51% or 52% of the people think that things will be better without a confessional state. But it is only half of the people. There is a reason. That is, people don’t understand what is a confessional state and do not realize what is happening. It is believed 1 or 2 years ago. The statistics would be like 20% of the people. There is really good work by some feminist groups, collectives. Also, some universities that are talking to people about it, and what that means. The percent of people who give to state go to church. For the Catholic Church, maybe, if you are idealistic, then it might not be that good for you. The kids have to have Catholic classes in their schools or something like that. I think the main topic here is to make the people understand what we want as changes. The Catholic Church says, “Oh no! They will be really upset about it.” It’s like, “No, we won’t be upset about it.” Let’s talk about it first, it is about a political thing and do not be mad because 5,000,000 people don’t make their choices about what the Catholic religion says. I don’t know if I am making the point clear. It is making the point that it’s not about them not being able to attend church, have faith activities, and so on. It is just that not all people in Costa Rica are the same as you, and that’s okay. You should be open to other beliefs and just let the people in the society decide in a political way, in a democratic way, not just what the Catholic Church says. That’s why in Costa Rica; there’s a lot of false information.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Arantxa.

León: No! Thank you.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 5 – The Trump Peace Plan: Is This the “The Deal of the Century,” or Not?

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/03/26

Omar Shakir, J.D., M.A. works as the Israel and Palestine Director for Human Rights Watch. He investigates a variety of human rights abuses within the occupied Palestinian territories/Occupied Palestinian Territories or oPt/OPT (Gaza and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem) and Israel. He earned a B.A. in International Relations from Stanford University, an M.A. in Arab Studies from Georgetown University’s School of Foreign Affairs, and a J.D. from Stanford Law School. He is bilingual in Arabic and English. Previously, he was a Bertha Fellow at the Center for Constitutional Rights with a focus on U.S. counterterrorism policies, which included legal representation of Guantanamo detainees. He was the Arthur R. and Barbara D. Finberg Fellow (2013-2014) for Human Rights Watch with investigations, during this time, into the human rights violations in Egypt, e.g., the Rab’a massacre, which is one of the largest killings of protestors in a single day ever. Also, he was a Fulbright Scholar in Syria.

Here we continue with the 5th part in our series of conversations with coverage on regular updates, the American context for the Israelis and the ongoing human rights issues, the release of the American peace plan, the reactions of the international community, the release of the U.N. Database of Settlement Companies, and some clarification on claims about relations between HRW and Interdisciplinary Center (IDC) Herzliya. As a note, Shakir’s work permit revoked based on the decision of the Israeli Supreme Court in late 2019 (Krauss, 2019). One can see similar actions with travel bans, ongoing, against others, including Amnesty International staff member Laith Abu Zeyad (Amnesty International, 2019a; Zeyad, 2019; Amnesty International, 2020). Reps. Rashida Tlaib and Ilhan Omar were subject to being barred from entry (Romo, 2019). Dr. Noam Chomsky was denied entry, previously (Hass, 2010). Dr. Norman Finkelstein was deported in the past (Silverstein, 2008). With the deportation of Shakir based on the decision of the Israeli Supreme Court, Shakir, for this session, works from Amman, Jordan.

*Interview conducted on February 17, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: In the previous session, Session 4, we covered some of the feedback and responses coming my way (Jacobsen, 2020a; Jacobsen, 2020b). However, I can see some of these coming probably to others covering similar human rights abuses and violations of international law [Ed. Shakir noted, in “Human Rights Watch (Israel and Palestine) on Common Rights and Law Violations,” the following, “It is a similar pattern everywhere. Israel-Palestine, we have seen the same dynamic. The Israeli government says that we are biased against them. When we released reports, as we have done for more than two decades, on arbitrary arrests by the Palestinian Authority or Hamas, or the unlawful use of force by them, we are accused… of being part of an agenda of Israel and the United States to undermine them. Even in the last year, we have seen accusations from both Israelis and Palestinians” (Jacobsen, 2019)]. Now, people can reference that if any concerns regarding some of these secondary concerns. For February 17th, what are some updates on the Israeli side? And then we can move into some other questions, basically, in a logical progression here.

Omar Shakir: Sure, I think, the most significant newsworthy development has been the release of Trump’s “Deal of the Century” and reactions for what it might mean in terms of the human rights situation on the ground affecting Israelis and Palestinians (White House Staff, 2020; Heller & Lee, 2020; Daraghmeh & Akram, 2020).[1] That plan unveiled in late January (White House Staff, 2020). Of course, it elicited a wide range of responses in the international community.[2] And, of course, within Israel and Palestine, that in conjunction with statements made by the Palestinian Authority, as well as the build up to the Israeli election, has been among the more significant developments (Krauss, & Daraghmeh, 2020).[3] Obviously, while these are political considerations, the ramifications for human rights are rather significant (Jacobsen, 2020b).

Jacobsen: Has the American context for relations with Israel, basically, since the inception of this particular human rights issue (Ibid.) been central to human rights issues down the line, whether indirectly or directly in other words?

Shakir: Sure, Americans for much of the past quarter century have played a leading role in negotiations between the Israelis and the Palestinians. The United States has never been an honest broker.[4] It has always taken the Israeli side and frequently turned a blind eye to its human rights abuses or would underplay their prominence (Jacobsen, 2020b). Under this U.S. Administration, we have seen a shift in the United States, as it has greenlighted and, in some cases, is complicit in Israeli human rights abuses on the ground (Lederer & Sanminiatelli, 2019). This plan, while departing from U.S. positions on a number of issues, lays bare what the peace process has become: a fig leaf for Israel’s discriminatory rule over Palestinians from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea (White House Staff, 2020; Lederer & Sanminiatelli, 2019). There are many possible paths to peace that ensure a better future for Israelis and Palestinians, but none that are not rooted in the dignity and rights of those on the receiving end of any peace deal (Jacobsen, 2020b).

Jacobsen: When this was released on the 28th of January, no Palestinian representatives were present (Heller & Lee, 2020). However, the Prime Minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, was present in terms of a press conference with President Donald Trump (Ibid.). Is this in line with the obvious message being sent?

Shakir: Of course, the United States government under the Trump Administration has taken a series of steps that are intended or have the effect of utterly decimating organized Palestinian politics, and the institutions that work on issues related to Palestinians, as well as the issues themselves, but it goes beyond the optics of having only one side present (Lederer & Sanminiatelli, 2019). I think this plan takes the status quo, which is a reality that can be characterized by institutional discrimination, systemic repression of Palestinians, and serious human rights abuses, and calls it its final solution (Human Rights Watch, 2019a; Human Rights Watch, 2019b). It strives to make permanent a one-state reality in which 14 or so million people, about half of whom are Israeli or Palestinian, live in the area between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea with Palestinians treated unequally.[5] This would make permanent this reality and facilitate Israeli annexation of the West Bank and allow it to, in essence, maintain full domination and control over Palestinians and its abusive system of control over them (The Associated Press, 2020a; Krauss & Daraghmeh, 2020).

Jacobsen: How are American allies reacting to the release of this? Is it complacency or explicit support in many cases?

Shakir: There has, of course, been a mixed response in the international community (Daraghmeh & Akram, 2020). I think, on one hand, there is a desire by many states for a political process in a context where for a number of years in which there has been little movement. I also think there has been a widespread rejection of the way in which this proposal undermines international law (Lederer & Sanminiatelli, 2019; Daraghmeh & Akram, 2020). Of course, any process should be open to different and new ideas, but this proposal does nothing more than entrench an abusive, discriminatory status quo. But I think you have seen some interesting developments. You have seen a rejection of the plan by significant blocs of states, including the European Union (Emmott, 2020), the League of Arab States[6] (Fahmy, el-Din, & Laessing, 2020), the Organization of Islamic Cooperation[7] (Kalin & Abdullah, 2020), among others. You have also seen the European Union and some states in Europe make clear that any future resolution should be rooted in the equal rights of all people[8] (United Nations, 1948; Jacobsen, 2020b), which, while a straightforward notion, has not been the sort of language and framing that has been used in this context. I think it underlies the basic reality that Israel cannot continue to use the logic of occupation to justify the mass suspension of basic Palestinian rights (Jacobsen, 2020b). There have been some states (Daraghmeh & Akram, 2020) that have reacted more positively to this initiative, but, at the same time, I think the overall trend has been a rejection of the attempt to liquidate core rights for Palestinians (Human Rights Watch, 2019a; Human Rights Watch, 2019b; Jacobsen, 2020b).

Jacobsen: How are the conversations taking place over time since the 28th[9] in the Gaza Strip, in the West Bank?

Shakir: Look, I think for many Palestinians this plan is nothing new. [Laughing] It is the reality that they have lived under for more than half of a century of ugly occupation characterized by entrenched discrimination and serious rights abuse (Human Rights Watch, 2019a; Jacobsen, 2020b). Polling data indicates that 90%+ of Palestinians reject the plan (The Associated Press, 2020b).[10] There have, certainly, been demonstrations and uses of force by Israeli security forces against demonstrators (Daraghmeh & Akram, 2020; Goldenberg, 2020). There have also been more violent attacks by Palestinians against Israeli security forces and civilians (Akram, 2020; Krauss, 2020a; Krauss, 2020b; The Associated Press, 2020c). We have seen a range of different reactions (Lederer & Sanminiatelli, 2019; Krauss & Daraghmeh, 2020; Daraghmeh & Akram, 2020; Heller & Lee, 2020). I think Palestinians understand this plan for what it is: an attempt to make permanent the discriminatory status quo (The Associated Press, 2020b).

Jacobsen: The U.N. also recently released a list of companies, 112[11] [Ed. Countries with companies on the listing (number of companies in parentheses per country): France (3), Israel (94), Luxembourg (1), Netherlands (4), Thailand (1), United Kingdom (3), United States of America (6) (U.N. Human Rights Council, 2020).], who are doing business on Israeli settlements in the West Bank (Nebehay, 2020; Federman, 2020; Federman & Keaten, 2020). What does this mean for this similar discourse of rights violations through the annexation of land? What are the particular types of rights violations in this reportage?

Shakir: The long-awaited release of the U.N. Database of Settlement Companies should really put companies on notice: to do business with illegal settlements is to aid in the commission of war crimes (U.N. Human Rights Council, 2020).[12] Companies have hid for too long behind the idea of these issues as too controversial or complex as a way to excuse their direct contribution to rights abuses. The underlying reality is that settlements are not only a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention and a war crime (Diplomatic Conference of Geneva, 1949; Amnesty International, 2019b).[13] They also entail systematic abuses to the rights of Palestinians. Settlements are built on land confiscated, stolen, from Palestinians (Amnesty International, 2019b). In order to maintain the settlement enterprise, Israel has erected a two-tiered discriminatory system[14] in the West Bank that treats Palestinians separately and unequally (Human Rights Watch, 2010). Companies that do business in settlements not only further entrench the illegal settlement enterprise, but they actually profit from the theft of Palestinian land and contribute to the further dispossession of Palestinians.[15] I think the release of this database is an important step towards ensuring transparency around these activities, but also towards protecting human rights, not only of Palestinians, but setting a precedent that can be used in other contexts to improve the standards around business and human rights.

Jacobsen: Is there a project ongoing with the Interdisciplinary Center Herzliya (2020a)? Is there a partnership between HRW and IDC Herzliya in terms of a rule of law project called “Reconnect” (Cronin, 2020)?

Shakir: No, there isn’t. The RECONNECT project is a multidisciplinary research project focusing on rule of law in Europe (2020b). It involves several universities and academic institutions. The international advisory board, on which one Human Rights Watch staff member serves in her private capacity, is solely linked to the RECONNECT project (IDC Herzliya, 2020c), and it does not involve any dealings with the individual academic institutions and their individual programs, curricular, research etc.

Jacobsen: Have there been any force or military engagements in the last month as well?

Shakir: There have been, of course, in the aftermath of the U.S. plan. There have been demonstrations. There have been instances, certainly, of Israel in keeping with its practice of apparently using excessive force and policing operations in East Jerusalem and along the fences separating Gaza and the West Bank. Those practices, certainly, have continued. There have also been instances in emanating from Gaza and the West Bank of Palestinians using violence that affected civilians. So, those have continued in line with the practices that have been documented before.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Omar.

Shakir: Bye now.

References

Akram, F. (2020, January 21). Israeli army kills 3 Palestinians after attack at Gaza fence. Retrieved from https://apnews.com/dc0239c088f22d3f5a6639b171a3f181.

Amnesty International. (2019b, January). Chapter 3: Israeli Settlements and International Law. Retrieved from https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2019/01/chapter-3-israeli-settlements-and-international-law/.

Amnesty International. (2019a, October 31). Israel/ OPT: Amnesty staff member faces punitive travel ban for human rights work. Retrieved from https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2019/10/israel-opt-amnesty-staff-member-faces-punitive-travel-ban-for-human-rights-work/.

Amnesty International. (2020, March 25). ISRAEL/ OPT: End cruel travel ban on Amnesty staff member. Retrieved from https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2020/03/israel-opt-end-cruel-travel-ban-on-amnesty-staff-member/.

Cronin, D. (2020, January 27). Why has Human Rights Watch teamed up with Israeli warmongers?. Retrieved from https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/david-cronin/why-has-human-rights-watch-teamed-israeli-warmongers.

Daraghmeh, M. & Akram, F. (2020, January 28). Palestinians angrily reject Trump Mideast peace plan. Retrieved from https://apnews.com/0dcb0179faf41e1870f35838058f4d18.

Emmott, R. (2020, February 4). EU rejects Trump Middle East peace plan, annexation. Retrieved from https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-eu/eu-rejects-trump-middle-east-peace-plan-annexation-idUSKBN1ZY1I9.

Fahmy, O. el-Din, M.S., & Laessing, U. (2020, February 1). Arab League rejects Trump’s Middle East plan: communique. Retrieved from https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-arabs/arab-league-rejects-trumps-middle-east-plan-communique-idUSKBN1ZV3QV.

Federman, J. (2020, February 13). Pompeo ‘outraged’ by UN list of firms with settlement ties. Retrieved from https://apnews.com/c0ec6c0a8ebb1b68b4d233a894634b51.

Federman, J. & Keaten, J. (2020, February 12). UN list targets firms linked to Israeli settlements. Retrieved from https://apnews.com/5c4eb3c4dd04a1ea0880dd735ebb0544.

Goldenberg, T. (2020, February 6). Mideast violence flares as anger mounts over Trump plan. Retrieved from https://apnews.com/c3ce0c94b262b60fe3fc0ce317450aa1.

Hass, A. (2010, May 16). Noam Chomsky Denied Entry Into Israel and West Bank. Retrieved from https://www.haaretz.com/1.5121279.

Heller, A. & Lee, M. (2020, January 28). Retrieved from https://apnews.com/f7d36b9023309ce4b1e423b02abf52c6.

Holland, S., Williams, D., & Mohammed, A. (2020, January 28). Trump leaps into Middle East fray with peace plan that Palestinians denounce. Retrieved from https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-plan/trump-leaps-into-middle-east-fray-with-peace-plan-that-palestinians-denounce-idUSKBN1ZR1SR.

Human Rights Watch. (2019a). Born Without Civil Rights: Israel’s Use of Draconian Military Orders to Repress Palestinians in the West Bank. Retrieved from https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/report_pdf/palestine1219_web_0.p.

Human Rights Watch. (2019b). Israel and Palestine. Retrieved from https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2020/country-chapters/israel/palestine.

Human Rights Watch. (2010, December 19). Separate and Unequal: Israel’s Discriminatory Treatment of Palestinians in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. Retrieved from https://www.hrw.org/report/2010/12/19/separate-and-unequal/israels-discriminatory-treatment-palestinians-occupied.

IDC Herzliya. (2020a). About IDC. Retrieved from https://www.idc.ac.il/en/pages/home.aspx.

IDC Herzliya. (2020c). International Advisory Board: Lotte Leicht. Retrieved from https://reconnect-europe.eu/project-info/iab/.

IDC Herzliya. (2020b). RECONNECT: Interdisciplinary Centre Herzliya. Retrieved from https://reconnect-europe.eu/partners/idc/.

International Committee of the Red Cross (Diplomatic Conference of Geneva of 1949). (1949, August 12). Convention (IV) relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War. Geneva, 12 August 1949. Retrieved from https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl.nsf/Treaty.xsp?documentId=AE2D398352C5B028C12563CD002D6B5C&action=openDocument.

Jacobsen, S.D. (2020a, March 20). Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 4 – Uninhabitable: The Viability of Gaza Strip’s 2020 Unlivability. Retrieved from https://www.canadianatheist.com/2020/03/ask-hrw-israel-and-palestine-4-jacobsen/.

Jacobsen, S.D. (2020b, March 20). Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) Addendum: Some History and Contextualization of Rights. Retrieved from https://www.canadianatheist.com/2020/03/ask-hrw-israel-and-palestine-addendum-jacobsen/.

Jacobsen, S.D. (2019, May 25). Human Rights Watch (Israel and Palestine) on Common Rights and Law Violations. Retrieved from https://www.newsintervention.com/human-rights-watch-israel-and-palestine-on-common-rights-and-law-violations/.

Kalin, S. & Abdullah, N. (2020, February 3). Organization of Islamic Cooperation rejects Trump peace plan: statement. Retrieved from https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-oic/organization-of-islamic-cooperation-rejects-trump-peace-plan-statement-idUSKBN1ZX1BH.  

Krauss, J. (2020b, February 7). Palestinians deny US charges of incitement, blame Trump plan. Retrieved from https://apnews.com/b6504c5c673c656b233657655b6fe8c1.

Krauss, J. (2020a, January 31). Palestinians protest Trump plan, Gaza militants fire rockets. Retrieved from https://apnews.com/8b1e187b73181b12f29f5709a95b8f9b.

Krauss, J. (2019, November 24). Rights researcher deported by Israel vows to continue work. Retrieved from https://apnews.com/0affecdba13e41afbdeb9be9825f97b5.

Krauss, J. & Daraghmeh, M. (2020, February 6). Anger at Trump plan could mobilize Arab voters in Israel. Retrieved from https://apnews.com/37982cbe5f3596249c70b907ec87aee2.

Lederer, E.M. & Sanminiatelli, M. (2019, September 26). Abbas slams US for ‘depriving peace process of credibility’. Retrieved from https://apnews.com/c865a01d924542caa0aac0607ba8a63c.

Nebehay, S. (2020, February 12). U.N. report names 112 companies doing business with Israeli settlements. Retrieved from https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-un-companies/u-n-report-names-112-companies-doing-business-with-israeli-settlements-idUSKBN206234.

Romo, V. (2019, August 15). Reps. Omar And Tlaib Barred From Visiting Israel After Trump Supports A Ban. Retrieved from https://www.npr.org/2019/08/15/751430877/reps-omar-and-tlaib-barred-from-visiting-israel-after-trump-insists-on-ban/.

Silverstein, R. (2008, May 27). Shut out of the homeland. Retrieved from https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/may/27/shutoutofthehomeland.

The Associated Press. (2020b, February 12). 94% of Palestinians Reject Trump’s Plan; Support for Armed Struggle on Rise, Poll Says. Retrieved from https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/poll-94-of-palestinians-reject-trump-s-plan-support-for-armed-struggle-on-rise-1.8527500.

The Associated Press. (2020c, January 16). Israel hits Hamas target in Gaza as balloon attacks resume. Retrieved from https://apnews.com/ebebb6d4bdf31c9f7a004a86326ff4a1.

The Associated Press. (2020a, January 28). Netanyahu to ask Cabinet on Sunday to endorse plan to annex parts of West Bank. Retrieved from https://apnews.com/c253924f9bd9c5e0d385cb5f8bed5305.

U.N. Human Rights Council. (2020, February 12). Database of all business enterprises involved in the activities detailed in paragraph 96 of the independent international fact-finding mission to investigate the implications of the Israeli settlements on the civil, political, economic, social and cultural rights of the Palestinian people throughout the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem. A/HRC/43/71.

U.N. News. (2020, February 14). Database of businesses linked to Israeli settlements ‘important initial step’ towards accountability: rights expert. Retrieved from https://news.un.org/en/story/2020/02/1057451.

United Nations. (1948, December 10). The Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Retrieved from https://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/.  

White House Staff. (2020, January). Peace to Prosperity: A Vision to Improve the Lives of the Palestinian and Israeli People. Retrieved from https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a6/Peace_to_Prosperity.pdf.

Zeyad, L.A. (2019, December 16). Facebook Twitter Why is Israel preventing me from accompanying my mother to chemotherapy?. Retrieved from https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2019/12/why-is-israel-preventing-me-from-accompanying-my-mother-to-chemotherapy/.

Footnotes

[1] In terms of the presence at an announcement or an unveiling of the “Deal of the Century,” the Mideast plan, the Trump peace plan, or the release of the publication entitled “Peace to Prosperity: A Vision to Improve the Lives of the Palestinian and Israeli People,” it was reported by the Associated Press:

“It’s going to work,” Trump said, as he presented the plan at a White House ceremony filled with Israeli officials and allies, including evangelical Christian leaders and wealthy Republican donors. Representatives from the Arab countries of Bahrain, Oman and the United Arab Emirates were present, but there were no Palestinian representatives [emphasis added].

See Heller & Lee (2020).

[2] The Associated Press stated:

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas said “a thousand no’s” to the Mideast peace plan announced Tuesday by President Donald Trump…

…“We are certain that our Palestinian people will not let these conspiracies pass. So, all options are open. The (Israeli) occupation and the U.S. administration will bear the responsibility for what they did,” senior Hamas official Khalil al-Hayya said as he participated in one of several protests that broke out across the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip…

…EU foreign policy chief Josep Borrell said Trump’s initiative “provides an occasion to re-launch the urgently needed efforts towards a negotiated and viable solution” to the conflict…

…U.N. Secretary-General Antonio Guterres said the United Nations supports two states living in peace and security within recognized borders, on the basis of the pre-1967 borders, according to his spokesman…

…Saudi Arabia said it appreciated the Trump administration’s efforts and encouraged the resumption of direct talks between Israel and the Palestinians “under the auspices of the United States…”

…Jordan, meanwhile, warned against any Israeli “annexation of Palestinian lands” and reaffirmed its commitment to the creation of a Palestinian state along the 1967 lines, which would include all the West Bank and Israeli-annexed east Jerusalem…

…Egypt urged Israelis and Palestinians to “carefully study” the plan and said it appreciates the administration’s efforts.

See Daraghmeh & Akram (2020).

[3] The Associated Press stated:

The Palestinian Authority in the West Bank also has adamantly rejected the plan [emphasis added], which would allow Israel to annex all of its settlements and large parts of the West Bank, leaving the Palestinians with limited autonomy in an archipelago of enclaves surrounded by Israel.

See Krauss & Daraghmeh (2020).

[4] The Associated Press stated:

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas took to the world stage on Thursday to slam the United States for “depriving the peace process of any credibility” and undermining prospects for a two-state solution to the decades-old Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

In a speech before the U.N. General Assembly, Abbas also criticized the U.S. for recognizing Jerusalem as Israel’s capital, for saying that Israeli settlements in the Palestinian territories are legitimate and for cutting development aid to the Palestinians.

U.S. policy, he said, is “pushing large segments of the Palestinian people to lose hope in the possibility of long-awaited peace,” and renewed his call for an international peace conference.

See Lederer & Sanminiatelli (2019).

[5] This differs from the United Nations stance up to the U.N. Secretary-General making the stance explicit as recent as early 2020. The Associated Press stated:

U.N. Secretary-General Antonio Guterres said the United Nations supports two states living in peace and security within recognized borders, on the basis of the pre-1967 borders, according to his spokesman.

“The position of the United Nations on the two-state solution has been defined, throughout the years, by relevant Security Council and General Assembly resolutions by which the Secretariat is bound,” the spokesman, Stephane Dujarric, said.

See Daraghmeh & Akram (2020).

[6] Reuters stated:

The Arab League rejected U.S. President Donald Trump’s Middle East peace plan [emphasis added] at a meeting of foreign ministers in Cairo on Saturday, saying it would not lead to a just peace deal.

The Arab League will not cooperate with the United States to execute the plan, a communique said. Israel should not to implement the initiative by force, it said.

See Fahmy, el-Din, & Laessing (2020).

[7] Reuters stated:

The Organization of Islamic Cooperation said on Monday it rejects U.S. President Donald Trump’s Middle East peace plan [emphasis added].

The 57-member organization which held a summit to discuss the plan in Jeddah said it “calls on all member states not to engage with this plan or to cooperate with the U.S. administration in implementing it in any form”.

See Kalin & Abdullah (2020).

[8] The United Nations stipulated:

…recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world…

…THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY proclaims THIS UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS as a common standard of achievement for all peoples and all nations… 

…All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood… 

…Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty…

…All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

See United Nations (1948).

[9] The “Deal of the Century” or the “Peace to Prosperity: A Vision to Improve the Lives of the Palestinian and Israeli People” released on this date. See Holland, Williams, & Mohammed (2020).

[10] The Associated Press (in Haaretz) stated:

Ninety-four percent of Palestinians reject President Donald Trump’s Mideast initiative according to a poll released Tuesday, which also found plummeting support for a two-state solution with Israel and nearly two-thirds backing armed struggle [emphasis added].

The Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research was published the poll as thousands of Palestinians rallied in the West Bank and Gaza to reject the Trump plan and express support for President Mahmoud Abbas in his efforts to gain backing at the UN Security Council for a resolution opposing it.

The survey, the first of Palestinian public opinion to be released since Trump’s plan was announced, undercuts the administration’s claims that opposition to the plan is largely confined to the Palestinian leadership, and raises concerns that the implementation of the proposal, which heavily favors Israel, could ignite a new round of violence.

Trump’s Mideast plan, announced at the White House on January 28, sides with Israel on virtually all of the most contentious issues of the decades-old conflict…

…The Palestinian leadership, which cut off ties with the United States after Trump recognized disputed Jerusalem as Israel’s capital in 2017, have adamantly rejected the plan.

The opinion survey found that an overwhelming majority of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza also oppose it.

“I don’t think we’ve ever seen such a level of consensus among the Palestinian public,” said Khalil Shikaki, the head of the polling center…

…“All Palestinian people and all the factions, national and Islamic, are standing behind President Mahmoud Abbas,” Prime Minister Mohammed Shtayyeh told the crowd in Ramallah. “All the streets are full,” he said. “This is the Palestinian response.”

See The Associated Press (2020b).

[11] U.N. News stated:

A database of 112 businesses connected to Israeli settlements in the occupied Palestinian territory has been hailed by an independent human rights expert as “an important initial step towards accountability and the end to impunity”. 

Ninety-four of the businesses are domiciled in Israel and the rest are in six other countries. 

“While the release of the database will not, by itself, bring an end to the illegal settlements and their serious impact upon human rights, it does signal that sustained defiance by an occupying power will not go unanswered”, Special Rapporteur Michael Lynk said on Friday…

…“Without these investments, wineries, factories, corporate supply and purchase agreements, banking operations and support services, many of the settlements would not be financially and operationally sustainable. And without the settlements, the five-decade-long Israeli occupation would lose its colonial raison d’être”, he stated. 

The rights expert urged UN Member States to implement laws banning the import of goods produced in illegal settlements located in any occupied territory. 

“The international community has rightly condemned the illegal status and harmful impact of the Israeli settlements,” the Special Rapporteur said. “But by engaging in trade and commerce with the settlements, the international community sustains their viability and undercuts its own pronouncements”. 

Special Rapporteurs are appointed by the Geneva-based UN Human Rights Council to examine and report back on a specific human rights theme or a country situation. The positions are honorary and the experts are not UN staff, nor are they paid for their work. 

See U.N. News (2020).

U.N. Human Rights Council lists the companies in this footnote below the rest of this contextualization text. The report stated, “OHCHR found that 112 of the 188 business enterprises considered for inclusion in the database met the required standard of reasonable grounds to believe that they were involved in one or more of the listed activities (see table below). The remaining 76 business enterprises did not meet the standard of proof and were not included in the database.” The classifications for the “Category of listed activity” in the table of the 112 businesses references II. Mandate 6. (a) through (j), as follows:

(a) The supply of equipment and materials facilitating the construction and the expansion of settlements and the wall, and associated infrastructure;

(b) The supply of surveillance and identification equipment for settlements, the wall and checkpoints directly linked with settlements;

(c)  The supply of equipment for the demolition of housing and property, the destruction of agricultural farms, greenhouses, olive groves and crops;

(d) The supply of security services, equipment and materials to enterprises operating in settlements;

(e)  The provision of services and utilities supporting the maintenance and existence of settlements, including transport;

(f)  Banking and financial operations helping to develop, expand or maintain settlements and their activities, including loans for housing and the development of businesses;

(g) The use of natural resources, in particular water and land, for business purposes;

(h) Pollution, and the dumping of waste in or its transfer to Palestinian villages;

(i)  Captivity of the Palestinian financial and economic markets, as well as practices that disadvantage Palestinian enterprises, including through restrictions on movement, administrative and legal constraints;

(j) The use of benefits and reinvestments of enterprises owned totally or partially by settlers for developing, expanding and maintaining the settlements.

OHCHR noted, “With respect to three listed activities (see para. 6 (c), (i) and (j) above), OHCHR did not find any business enterprise satisfying the standard of reasonable grounds to believe involvement consistent with the definitions set out above.” Please find the complete 112 out of the 188 companies who formally met the requirements for inclusion as follows:

Business enterprises involved in listed activities
No. Business Enterprise Category of listed activity State concerned
1 Afikim Public Transportation Ltd. E Israel
2 Airbnb Inc. E United States
3 American Israeli Gas Corporation Ltd. E, G Israel
4 Amir Marketing and Investments in Agriculture Ltd. G Israel
5 Amos Hadar Properties and Investments Ltd. G Israel
6 Angel Bakeries E, G Israel
7 Archivists Ltd. G Israel
8 Ariel Properties Group E Israel
9 Ashtrom Industries Ltd. G Israel
10 Ashtrom Properties Ltd. G Israel
11 Avgol Industries 1953 Ltd. G Israel
12 Bank Hapoalim B.M. E, F Israel
13 Bank Leumi Le-Israel B.M. E, F Israel
14 Bank of Jerusalem Ltd. E, F Israel
15 Beit Haarchiv Ltd. G Israel
16 Bezeq, the Israel Telecommunication Corp Ltd. E, G Israel
17 Booking.com B.V. E Netherlands
18 C Mer Industries Ltd. B Israel
19 Café Café Israel Ltd. E, G Israel
20 Caliber 3 D, G Israel
21 Cellcom Israel Ltd. E, G Israel
22 Cherriessa Ltd. G Israel
23 Chish Nofei Israel Ltd. G Israel
24 Citadis Israel Ltd. E, G Israel
25 Comasco Ltd. A Israel
26 Darban Investments Ltd. G Israel
27 Delek Group Ltd. E, G Israel
28 Delta Israel G Israel
29 Dor Alon Energy in Israel 1988 Ltd. E, G Israel
30 Egis Rail E France
31 Egged, Israel Transportation Cooperative Society Ltd. E Israel
32 Energix Renewable Energies Ltd. G Israel
33 EPR Systems Ltd. E, G Israel
34 Extal Ltd. G Israel
35 Expedia Group Inc. E United States
36 Field Produce Ltd. G Israel
37 Field Produce Marketing Ltd. G Israel
38 First International Bank of Israel Ltd. E, F   Israel
39 Galshan Shvakim Ltd. E, D Israel
40 General Mills Israel Ltd. G Israel
41 Hadiklaim Israel Date Growers Cooperative Ltd. G Israel
42 Hot Mobile Ltd. E Israel
43 Hot Telecommunications Systems Ltd. E Israel
44 Industrial Buildings Corporation Ltd. G Israel
45 Israel Discount Bank Ltd. E, F Israel
46 Israel Railways Corporation Ltd. G, H Israel
47 Italek Ltd. E, G Israel
48 JC Bamford Excavators Ltd. A United Kingdom
49 Jerusalem Economy Ltd. G Israel
50 Kavim Public Transportation Ltd. E Israel
51 Lipski Installation and Sanitation Ltd. G Israel
52 Matrix IT Ltd. E, G Israel
53 Mayer Davidov Garages Ltd. E, G Israel
54 Mekorot Water Company Ltd. G Israel
55 Mercantile Discount Bank Ltd. E, F Israel
56 Merkavim Transportation Technologies Ltd. E Israel
57 Mizrahi Tefahot Bank Ltd. E, F Israel
58 Modi’in Ezrachi Group Ltd.   E, D Israel
59 Mordechai Aviv Taasiot Beniyah 1973 Ltd. G Israel
60 Motorola Solutions Israel Ltd. B Israel
61 Municipal Bank Ltd. F Israel
62 Naaman Group Ltd. E, G Israel
63 Nof Yam Security Ltd. E, D   Israel
64 Ofertex Industries 1997 Ltd. G Israel
65 Opodo Ltd. E United Kingdom
66 Bank Otsar Ha-Hayal Ltd.        E, F Israel
67 Partner Communications Company Ltd. E, G Israel
68 Paz Oil Company Ltd. E, G Israel
69 Pelegas Ltd. G Israel
70 Pelephone Communications Ltd. E, G Israel
71 Proffimat S.R. Ltd. G Israel
72 Rami Levy Chain Stores Hashikma Marketing 2006 Ltd. E, G Israel
73 Rami Levy Hashikma Marketing Communication Ltd. E, G Israel
74 Re/Max Israel E Israel
75 Shalgal Food Ltd. G Israel
76 Shapir Engineering and Industry Ltd. E, G Israel
77 Shufersal Ltd. E, G Israel
78 Sonol Israel Ltd. E, G Israel
79 Superbus Ltd. E Israel
80 Supergum Industries 1969 Ltd. G Israel
81 Tahal Group International B.V. E Netherlands
82 TripAdvisor Inc. E United States
83 Twitoplast Ltd. G Israel
84 Unikowsky Maoz Ltd. G Israel
85 YES E Israel
86 Zakai Agricultural Know-how and inputs Ltd. G Israel
87 ZF Development and Construction G Israel
88 ZMH Hammermand Ltd. G Israel
89 Zorganika Ltd. G Israel
90 Zriha Hlavin Industries Ltd. G Israel
Business enterprises involved as parent companies
No. Business Enterprise Category of listed activity State concerned
91 Alon Blue Square Israel Ltd. E, G Israel
92 Alstom S.A. E, G France
93 Altice Europe N.V. E Netherlands
94 Amnon Mesilot Ltd. E Israel
95 Ashtrom Group Ltd. G Israel
96 Booking Holdings Inc. E United States
97 Brand Industries Ltd. G Israel
98 Delta Galil Industries Ltd. G Israel
99 eDreams ODIGEO S.A. E Luxembourg
100 Egis S.A. E France
101 Electra Ltd. E Israel
102 Export Investment Company Ltd. E, F Israel
103 General Mills Inc. G United States
104 Hadar Group G Israel
105 Hamat Group Ltd. G Israel
106 Indorama Ventures P.C.L. G Thailand
107 Kardan N.V. E Netherlands
108 Mayer’s Cars and Trucks Co. Ltd. E Israel
109 Motorola Solutions Inc. B United States
110 Natoon Group E, D Israel
111 Villar International Ltd. G Israel
Business enterprises involved as licensors or franchisors
No. Business Enterprise Category of listed activity State concerned
112 Greenkote P.L.C. G United Kingdom

See U.N. Human Rights Council (2020).

[12] By the statements from Shakir’s expert evaluation, and the personal analyses above, France, Israel, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Thailand, the United Kingdom, and the United States of America are actively engaged in aiding “in the commission of war crimes” based on “business with illegal settlements” to the tune of 3 companies, 94 companies, 1 company, 4 companies, 1 company, 3 companies, and 6 companies, respectively.

[13] Amnesty International states:

Israel’s policy of settling its civilians in occupied Palestinian territory and displacing the local population contravenes fundamental rules of international humanitarian law.

Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention states: “The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.” It also prohibits the “individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory”. 

The extensive appropriation of land and the appropriation and destruction of property required to build and expand settlements also breach other rules of international humanitarian law. Under the Hague Regulations of 1907, the public property of the occupied population (such as lands, forests and agricultural estates) is subject to the laws of usufruct. This means that an occupying state is only allowed a very limited use of this property. This limitation is derived from the notion that occupation is temporary, the core idea of the law of occupation. In the words of the International Committee of the Red Cross, the occupying power “has a duty to ensure the protection, security, and welfare of the people living under occupation and to guarantee that they can live as normal a life as possible, in accordance with their own laws, culture, and traditions.”

The Hague Regulations prohibit the confiscation of private property. The Fourth Geneva Convention prohibits the destruction of private or state property, “except where such destruction is rendered absolutely necessary by military operations”…

… The settlements have been condemned as illegal in many UN Security Council and other UN resolutions. As early as 1980, UN Security Council Resolution 465 called on Israel “to dismantle the existing settlements and, in particular, to cease, on an urgent basis, the establishment, construction and planning of settlements in the Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem.” The International Committee of the Red Cross and the Conference of High Contracting Parties to the Fourth Geneva Convention have reaffirmed that settlements violate international humanitarian law. The illegality of the settlements was recently reaffirmed by UN Security Council Resolution 2334, passed in December 2016, which reiterates the Security Council’s call on Israel to cease all settlement activities in the OPT. The serious human rights violations that stem from Israeli settlements have also been repeatedly raised and condemned by international bodies and experts.

See Amnesty International (2019).

[14] Human Rights Watch reported:

This report consists of a series of case studies that compare Israel’s different treatment of Jewish settlements to nearby Palestinian communities throughout the West Bank, including East Jerusalem. It describes the two-tier system of laws, rules, and services that Israel operates for the two populations in areas in the West Bank under its exclusive control, which provide preferential services, development, and benefits for Jewish settlers while imposing harsh conditions on Palestinians…

…It is widely acknowledged that Israel’s settlements in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, violate international humanitarian law, which prohibits the occupying power from transferring its civilian population into the territories it occupies; Israel appears to be the only country to contest that its settlements are illegal…

…Since 1967, when it seized the West Bank from Jordan during hostilities—and under a variety of governments, since the right-wing Likud party first came to power in 1977—Israel has expropriated land from Palestinians for Jewish-Israeli settlements and their supporting infrastructure, denied Palestinians building permits and demolished “illegal” Palestinian construction (i.e., Palestinian construction that the Israeli government chose not to authorize), prevented Palestinian villages from upgrading or building homes, schools, health clinics, wells, and water cisterns, blocked Palestinians from accessing roads and agricultural lands, failed to provide electricity, sewage, water, and other utilities to Palestinian communities, and rejected their applications for such services. 

 See Human Rights Watch. (2010).

[15] Human Rights Watch stated:

Israeli and multinational corporations and their subsidiaries profit from settlements in a variety of ways, including by receiving, producing, exporting, or marketing settlement agricultural and industrial goods, and by financing or constructing settlement buildings and infrastructure. Companies have directly contributed to discriminatory rights violations against Palestinians, for example through business activities based on lands that were unlawfully confiscated from Palestinians without compensation for the benefit of settlers, or activities that consume natural resources like water or rock quarries to which Israeli policies provide settlement industries preferential access, while denying equitable access to Palestinians. These businesses also benefit from Israeli governmental subsidies, tax abatements, and discriminatory access to infrastructure, permits, and export channels; Palestinian businesses deprived of equitable access to these government-provided benefits are sometimes as a result unable to compete against settlement-based companies in Palestinian, Israeli, or foreign markets.

See Ibid.

Previous Sessions (Chronological Order)

Interview with Omar Shakir – Israel and Palestine Director, Human Rights Watch (Middle East and North Africa Division)

HRW Israel and Palestine (MENA) Director on Systematic Methodology and Universal Vision

Human Rights Watch (Israel and Palestine) on Common Rights and Law Violations

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 1 – Recent Events

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 2 – Demolitions

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 3 – November-December: Deportation from Tel Aviv, Israel for Human Rights Watch Israel and Palestine Director

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 4 – Uninhabitable: The Viability of Gaza Strip’s 2020 Unlivability

Addenda

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) Addendum: Some History and Contextualization of Rights

License

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Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 4 – Uninhabitable: The Viability of Gaza Strip’s 2020 Unlivability

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/03/20

Omar Shakir, J.D., M.A. works as the Israel and Palestine Director for Human Rights Watch. He investigates a variety of human rights abuses within the occupied Palestinian territories or oPt (Gaza and the West Bank) and Israel. He earned a B.A. in International Relations from Stanford University, an M.A. in Arab Studies from Georgetown University’s School of Foreign Affairs, and a J.D. from Stanford Law school. He is bilingual in Arabic and English. Previously, he was a Bertha Fellow at the Center for Constitutional Rights with a focus on U.S. counterterrorism policies, which included legal representation of Guantanamo detainees. He was the Arthur R. and Barbara D. Finberg Fellow (2013-2014) for Human Rights Watch with investigations, during this time, into the human rights violations in Egypt, e.g., the Rab’a massacre, which is one of the largest killings of protestors in a single day ever. Also, he was a Fulbright Scholar in Syria.

Here we continue with the fourth part in our series of conversations with coverage of some of the real responses to this and prior work with Shakir, and then some updates on the end of December of 2019 and the first half of January of 2020 for Israel and Palestine. As a note, with the deportation of Shakir based on the decision of the Israeli Supreme Court, Shakir, for this session, works from Amman, Jordan.

*Interview conducted on January 12, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Based on some of the interviews we’ve done (Jacobsen, 2019a; Jacobsen, 2019b; Jacobsen; 2019c; Jacobsen, 2019d; Jacobsen, 2019e; Jacobsen, 2019f), and some of the more extensive work you’ve done through Human Rights Watch (HRW) on Israel and Palestine regarding human rights violations on all sides (Human Rights Watch, 2019c), you can get peripheral critiques, or ad hominem, i.e., “Ad hominem: This is an attack on the character of a person rather than his or her opinions or arguments,” or red herrings, i.e., “Red Herring: This is a diversionary tactic that avoids the key issues, often by avoiding opposing arguments rather than addressing them” (Purdue University, 2020). One can be standard. For instance, if you critique human rights violations by Israel or Israeli policy, you can be labelled anti-Semitic. What is generally the context for that charge? What is an appropriate response?

Omar Shakir: Anti-Semitism is a serious problem around the world, but to conflate criticism of Israeli policy or human rights documentation with anti-Semitism is to undermine what is a really serious societal ill (United Nations, 2019b). The reality is Human Rights Watch covers human rights abuses in over 100 countries around the world [Ed. HRW states, “Our researchers work in the field in 100 some countries, uncovering facts that create an undeniable record of human rights abuses” (Human Rights Watch, 2020b)]. We use the same methodologies in every country in which we work in. Often times, abuse of governments and their supporters instead of dealing with the substance of our work and our documentation will instead attack the messenger and assert claims of bias, as a way to attempt to shift attention from the underlying human rights abuse.  But this strategy has failed around the world. Folks understand that concerns about human rights abuse stems from a desire to improve the lives and the respect for the human dignity of all peoples.

Jacobsen: How does this cheapen real charges of anti-Semitism against those who are victimized by that kind of prejudice?

Shakir: It undermines the fight, the necessary fight, against all forms of racism, including anti-Semitism, to conflate Israeli policy with that societal ill. The reality is that human rights documentation in any context and advocacy for protection of human rights is an attempt to protect the rights of all people, including the right to be free from discrimination of all forms, including anti-Semitism.

Jacobsen: Another one that came my way. The idea that you have Arab ethnic heritage and, therefore, you are biased against Israel or likely to be biased. Is this along the same lines of a red herring-ad hominem?

Shakir: Absolutely, we have researchers of diverse backgrounds at Human Rights Watch. Often, we have a person from the country who is covering that country.  Of course, I’m neither Israeli or Palestinian. My predecessor was Jewish Israeli. Our methods are the same regardless of the identity of the particular researcher. To assert that someone because of their background is more or less able to do the research is a real reductionist argument. It is important to also note the research of Human Rights Watch is not the work of one person. We are an organization with a review process that goes through, at least, four other people. So, everything that goes out of the organization has been vetted to ensure that it meets the rigorous research standards, and that it applies through all the work of Human Rights Watch.

Jacobsen: For others, they mentioned not referencing Hamas attacks or other attacks against Israelis. I think that one is straightforward. They can look at other content that we have produced [Ed. Shakir stated, “Armed Palestinian groups also fired hundreds of rockets towards Israeli population centres that injured more than 75 Israelis. These are indiscriminate attacks that are war crimes. Those hostilities, of course, raised a number of other human rights issues” (Jacobsen, 2019f). Also, Shakir, in another session, stated, “It is a similar pattern everywhere. Israel-Palestine, we have seen the same dynamic. The Israeli government says that we are biased against them. When we released reports, as we have done for more than two decades, on arbitrary arrests by the Palestinian Authority or Hamas, or the unlawful use of force by them, we are accused… of being part of an agenda of Israel and the United States to undermine them. Even in the last year, we have seen accusations from both Israelis and Palestinians. I think the way to respond to that is to be methodologically consistent, to use the same tools, and to document the abuses of all parties” (Jacobsen, 2019c)]. They’re pointing to the idea that people reading this series will only come out with the idea that Israel is a colonialist, racist nation. I think we have covered this is in other sessions.

Shakir: Our documentation looks at abuses committed by all actors in Israel and Palestine. Take 2019, we issued a report that called the firing of indiscriminate rocket attacks by Palestinian groups war crimes (Human Rights Watch, 2019c). Also, we released a report documenting systematic, arbitrary arrest, mistreatment, and torture of people in detention by both the Palestinian authority and the Hamas authorities in the Gaza Strip. We regularly do this. Not because we are trying to create a “balance,” but because the reality of human rights abuse on the ground is that it is committed by a range of actors – not solely Israelis, not solely Palestinians. Our work covers the range of different actors involved in human rights abuse.

Jacobsen: The last one on the list was labelling some of the work you’ve been reporting on to me as irresponsible propaganda [Ed. “irresponsible propaganda” against Israel]. Maybe, we can focus on the ways in which many international respectable rights organizations are coming to the same conclusions as Human Rights Watch.  

Shakir: Human Rights Watch regularly does thorough, meticulous investigations speaking to a range of different witnesses of different backgrounds, consulting and seeking to corroborate all our findings with physical evidence and video evidence, a range of different sources, opinions of all stakeholders. Our research and conclusions, often, are reaching similar results as those reached by Israeli, Palestinian or other international human rights organizations.  I think, an easy way to dismiss an argument instead of dealing with the substance is to attach a label on it rather than delving into the substance in depth.

Jacobsen: Thank you, let’s delve more substantively into current events. As we are moving close to the second half of January in 2020, what are some of the important updates on the Israeli side and the Palestinian side?

Shakir: Let’s start with the Gaza Strip. The United Nations put out a report a few years ago saying that Gaza would be unlivable by 2020 (United Nations Relief and Works Agency, 2012; Macintyre, 2019; Belousha & Berger, 2019; Baroud, 2020). As we turn the page into a new decade, Gaza continues to be on the brink. Economically, 80% of the population relies on humanitarian aid (United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, 2015), unemployment figures hover around 50% (Estrin, 2018), and are even higher for women and for youth. Gaza continues to be in a process of de-development with a GDP per capita lower than it was 25 years ago [Ed. “Since 1994, Gaza’s per capita GDP has shrunk by 23 per cent” (United Nations Conference on Trade and Development, 2017). That reality continues. In the West Bank, of course, we are in the 53rd year of the occupation [Ed. “It is the longest occupation in recent history” (Ibid.)]. We see, now, a new Defense Minister [Ed. The Minister of Defense for Israel is Naftali Bennett (Knesset, 2020).] who has reiterated the desire to not only continue the systematic abuses, but, in fact, accelerate the construction of illegal settlements in the West Bank, as well as to facilitate and increase demolition of Palestinian homes and other structures (Kubovich, 2020; Lazaroff, & Toameh, 2020; Japan Times, 201). In 2019, we saw alarming figures regarding demolitions of homes in East Jerusalem and elsewhere in the occupied West Bank (Jacobsen, 2019e). I think these are among the significant developments. Of course, while much of the focus is on Israeli elections (Jerusalem Post, 2020), we continue to see the government double down on abusive policies (Human Rights Watch, 2019a). None of the major political parties are articulating an alternative vision.

Jacobsen: On the issues of unlivability in 2020, what are the most significant issues regarding that? What are the most pressing ones, e.g. around clean water?

Shakir: I think the most significant are limited access to clean water, limited or restricted access to electricity, and the larger humanitarian considerations that come with caging 2 million people in a 25 x 7 mile or 40 x 11 kilometre strip of land for more than a decade (Human Rights Watch, 2019c; Human Rights Watch, 2020a). That creates environmental and other issues. It is not a sustainable model. Much less, one that safeguards the rights entitled to the Palestinian population living in Gaza.

Jacobsen: Are there any comments or updates on the blockade?

Shakir: The blockade continues into its 12th year (The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica, 2019b). The Israeli government continued in 2019 a policy, where punitively in response to actions by armed groups or hostilities will, at times, further tighten the noose, e.g., restricting the access of fishermen off the coast of Gaza, access to the sea, or closing its crossing for the movement of people and/or goods, occasionally restricting export and import of goods. Otherwise, the ongoing policy, which is, in essence, a generalized travel ban of the people in Gaza outside of a narrow set of exemptions, continues to be in place (Human Rights Watch, 2019c; Human Rights Watch, 2020a). As well, there are restrictions on what goods can be exported out of Gaza, including to the occupied West Bank, which is part of the singular territorial entity, or to the outside world.

Jacobsen: What has been reported as the single most significant thing that could be done to improve the livelihood and the livability of Gaza?

Shakir: I think there’s no question. The single thing that must be done is to end the sweeping, unlawful restrictions on the movement of people and goods. The reality here is that movement of people and goods is key to developing the economy of Gaza and increasing the capacity of Gaza’s population, which is urban, highly educated. There are, of course, many other steps that can be taken by the Egyptian government, which controls one of the crossings out of Gaza, and the Palestinian Authority and Hamas, which have a degree of control. The single most important thing would be to end the closure. That does not mean to open the borders to all goods and traffic into Israel. Of course, Israel can enact some restrictions in the name of security, but a broad, sweeping, generalized ban that only lets people on an exceptional basis is unlawful. Rather, the baseline should be free movement with restrictions on individual movement on specific cases, where Israel has demonstrated a legitimate security concern.

Jacobsen: What about North American and Western European backing of Israel that permits the continuance of things like the blockade or the rights violations?

Shakir:  I think the international community has failed to use its power and leverage to restrain Israeli rights abuses. Of course, we have the U.S. Administration under President Trump that has gone even further from the historic U.S. position of failing to use its leverage to stop rights abuse, to greenlighting and, in some cases, even being directly complicit in rights abuse. With Europe, there have been, at times, strong statements of concern, but a failure to take or support actions that would, in fact, deter rights abuse. Not only by the Israeli government, mind you, but also with regards to its support to Palestinian security agencies. There is a need for concrete action, including supporting efforts around accountability through the International Criminal Court, actions such as at the U.N. with a database of businesses being compiled the U.N. High Commissioner of the businesses operating in settlements (Zeyad, 2019). These are the sort of actions that are needed for there to be real change in the systematic rights abuse that we see year and after.

Jacobsen: As I am speaking from Canadian response, what has been the Canadian response?

Shakir: I think the Canadian government’s response has shifted and changed through different governments (Government of Canada, 2019).  Canada has of late often voted alongside the United States, making it among the handful of nations that will fail to support resolutions that reiterate basic principles of international law or call for common sense statements or actions regarding unlawful policies. Canada is among that governments that sometimes fail to even endorse consensus international positions on a range of issues; much less, taking action on Israeli abuses.

Jacobsen: Where do you think things are going for the rest of January?

Shakir: With the focus on Israeli elections on the Israeli side, we will likely continue to see sharpened rhetoric, particularly around annexation, settlement expansion, home demolitions, as we have seen in the previous election cycles. The one-upmanship among different political forces at the expense of Palestinian lives. On the Palestinian side, there is clearly pressure around holding elections, but there appears to be lack of will by both Hamas and the Palestinian Authority to move to elections. Stagnation, as has been the case for some time now, will likely continue.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Omar.

Shakir: Thanks, Scott.

Previous Sessions (easier access than References, in chronological order)

Interview with Omar Shakir – Israel and Palestine Director, Human Rights Watch (Middle East and North Africa Division)

HRW Israel and Palestine (MENA) Director on Systematic Methodology and Universal Vision

Human Rights Watch (Israel and Palestine) on Common Rights and Law Violations

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 1 – Recent Events

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 2 – Demolitions

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 3 – November-December: Deportation from Tel Aviv, Israel for Human Rights Watch Israel and Palestine Director

Addenda

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) Addendum: Some History and Contextualization of Rights

References

Baroud, R. (2020, January 7). Gaza is now officially uninhabitable. Retrieved from https://gulfnews.com/opinion/op-eds/gaza-is-now-officially-uninhabitable-1.68839655.

Belousha, H. & Berger, M. (2020, January 2). The U.N. once predicted Gaza would be ‘uninhabitable’ by 2020. Two million people still live there.. Retrieved from https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2020/01/01/un-predicted-gaza-would-be-uninhabitable-by-heres-what-that-actually-means/.

Estrin, D (2018, December 29). Desperation In Gaza, Where Over Half Of Work Force Is Unemployed. Retrieved from https://www.npr.org/2018/12/29/680882575/desperation-in-gaza-where-over-half-of-work-force-is-unemployed.

Government of Canada. (2019, March 19). Canadian policy on key issues in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Retrieved from https://www.international.gc.ca/world-monde/international_relations-relations_internationales/mena-moan/israeli-palistinian_policy-politique_israelo-palestinien.aspx?lang=eng.

Human Rights Watch. (2020b). About Us: What We Do. Retrieved from https://www.hrw.org/about-us

Human Rights Watch. (2019b). Born Without Civil Rights: Israel’s Use of Draconian Military Orders to Repress Palestinians in the West Bank. Retrieved from https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/report_pdf/palestine1219_web_0.pdf.

Human Rights Watch. (2019a). Israel and Palestine: Events of 2018. Retrieved from https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2019/country-chapters/israel/palestine.

Human Rights Watch. (2020a). Israel and Palestine: Events of 2019. Retrieved from https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2020/country-chapters/israel/palestine.

Jacobsen, S.D. (2019d, May 23). Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 1 – Recent Events. Retrieved from https://www.canadianatheist.com/2019/05/ask-hrw-israel-and-palestine-1-recent-events/.

Jacobsen, S.D. (2019e, October 29). Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 2 – Demolitions. Retrieved from https://www.canadianatheist.com/2019/10/ask-hrw-israel-and-palestine-2-jacobsen/.

Jacobsen, S.D. (2019f, December 25). Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 3 – November-December: Deportation from Tel Aviv, Israel for Human Rights Watch Israel and Palestine Director. Retrieved from https://www.canadianatheist.com/2019/12/ask-hrw-3-jacobsen/.

Jacobsen, S.D. (2019b, May 23). HRW Israel and Palestine (MENA) Director on Systematic Methodology and Universal Vision. Retrieved from https://medium.com/humanist-voices/hrw-israel-and-palestine-mena-director-on-systematic-methodology-and-universal-vision-a223d598f703.

Jacobsen, S.D. (2019c, May 25). Human Rights Watch (Israel and Palestine) on Common Rights and Law Violations. Retrieved from https://www.newsintervention.com/human-rights-watch-israel-and-palestine-on-common-rights-and-law-violations/.

Jacobsen, S.D. (2019a, May 6). Interview with Omar Shakir – Israel and Palestine Director, Human Rights Watch (Middle East and North Africa Division). Retrieved from http://www.canadianatheist.com/2019/05/shakir-jacobsen/.

Japan Times. (2019, December 2). After U.S. drops opposition, Israel plans new Jewish-only settlement in Hebron flash-point. Retrieved from https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/12/02/world/social-issues-world/u-s-drops-opposition-israel-plans-new-jewish-settlement-hebron-flash-point/#.Xh-qCchKhPY.

Jerusalem Post. (2020). Israel Elections. Retrieved from https://www.jpost.com/Israel-Elections.

Knesset. (2020). Naftali Bennett: The New Right. Retrieved from https://www.knesset.gov.il/mk/eng/mk_eng.asp?mk_individual_id_t=864.

Kubovich, Y. (2020, January 9). Defense Chief Bennett Announces Task Force to Strengthen Israeli Settlement Activity. Retrieved from https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-defense-minister-announces-plan-to-strengthen-settlement-presence-in-west-bank-1.8375453.  

Lazaroff, T.& Toameh, K.A. (2020, January 9). Bennett doubles down on Palestinian demolitions. Retrieved from https://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Bennett-doubles-down-on-Palestinian-demolitions-613714.

Macintyre, D. (2019, December 28). By 2020, the UN said Gaza would be unliveable. Did it turn out that way? Retrieved from https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/dec/28/gaza-strip-202-unliveable-un-report-did-it-turn-out-that-way.

Purdue University. (2020). Logical Fallacies. Retrieved from https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/general_writing/academic_writing/logic_in_argumentative_writing/fallacies.html.

The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica. (2019, March 27). Gaza Strip: Blockade. Retrieved from https://www.britannica.com/place/Gaza-Strip/Blockade.

United Nations. (2019, October 17). United Nations Organizations’ Joint Event Calling on Member States to Address Global Rise in Antisemitism, at Headquarters, 18 October. Retrieved from https://www.un.org/press/en/2019/note6530.doc.htm.

United Nations Conference on Trade and Development. (2017, September 12). Fifty years of occupation have driven the Palestinian economy into de-development and poverty. Retrieved from https://unctad.org/en/Pages/PressRelease.aspx?OriginalVersionID=423.

United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs. (2015, July 2). The Gaza Strip: The Humanitarian Impact of the Blockade | July 2015. Retrieved from https://www.ochaopt.org/content/gaza-strip-humanitarian-impact-blockade-july-2015.

United Nation Relief and Works Agency. (2012, August). Gaza in 2020: A liveable place?. Retrieved from https://www.unrwa.org/userfiles/file/publications/gaza/Gaza%20in%202020.pdf.

UNODC. (2017, March 6). Amendment No. 28 to the Entry Into Israel Law. Retrieved from https://www.unodc.org/res/cld/document/law-no–5712-1952–entry-into-israel-law_html/Entry_Into_Israel_1952.pdf.

Zeyad, L.A. (2019, September 20). UN database of companies operating in Israeli settlements could help prevent human rights abuses. Retrieved from https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2019/09/un-database-of-companies-operating-in-israeli-settlements-could-help-prevent-human-rights-abuses/.

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Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) Addendum: Some History and Contextualization of Rights

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/03/20

Adaptations and changes made based on feedback from some readers with the Addendum, here, as one supplementary piece to the educational series with Human Rights Watch. Other materials can be found through keyword search on the Canadian Atheist website for “Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine).”

Duly note, as some history and contextualization of rights, Palestine, “formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire” (League of Nations, 1922), existed as a former “Ottoman” territory within the United Kingdom’s administration in 1922 under the League of Nations (United Nations, n.d.). All former Ottoman territories became independent, eventually, except for the Palestinian territory. This was part of the British Mandate (League of Nations, 1922) incorporating the 1917 Balfour Declaration (Rothschild et al, 1917). In 1947, the United Kingdom relinquished complete control of the problem of Palestine over to the United Nations, which took the place of the League of Nations after its dissolution on April 19, 1947 (United Nations, n.d.; The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica, 2020). That is to say, this remains one of the longest unresolved problems or questions – the Question of Palestine – in the history of the United Nations harkening back to its inception as an international human rights institution and bureaucratic juggernaut.

Upon which, the United Nations proposed a, and in November of 1947 voted for the, partitioning of the Palestinian (British) mandate territory/mandate Palestine into two independent states with one as an Arab state and another as a Jewish state (United Nations, n.d.; United Nations General Assembly, 1947). Jerusalem became internationalized in 1947 in Resolution 181 (II). From 1948 to 1949, this was the time of Israel’s War of Independence and The Palestinian Nakbah [Ed. “Nakbah” means “catastrophe” or “disaster.”], where combat began “almost immediately between Jews and Arabs in Palestine” (The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica, 2019). With the May 15, 1948 withdrawal of British troops, Israel declared independence. Nakba (“Nakbah”) Day is commemorated on the Gregorian calendar as the “Day of Catastrophe” on May 15; Yom Ha’atzmaut or the “Day of Independence” is celebrated on May 14. Each in reference or correspondence to the “Day of Catastrophe,” on the one side, and the “War of Independence,” on the other side, respectively. The 1948 Arab-Israeli war led to over half of the Arab Palestinian territory fleeing or forcefully being expelled (United Nations, n.d.). Israel, following the vote and the war, expanded to 77% of mandate Palestine (Ibid.). Resolution 181’s stipulated territory for the Arab state (Palestinian territory) alongside the Jewish state (Israel) went under the aegis of Jordan and Egypt (United Nations General Assembly, 1947; United Nations, n.d.).

Another pivotal war broke out in 1967, from June 5 to 10 in an event called the Six-Day War, in which Israel controlled the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem. This war resulted in a second expulsion of Palestinians estimated at half of a million Palestinians (United Nations, n.d.). The United Nations Security Council resolution 242 (United Nations Security Council, 1967) “formulated the principles of a just and lasting peace, including an Israeli withdrawal from territories occupied in the conflict, a just settlement of the refugee problem, and the termination of all claims or states of belligerency” (United Nations, n.d.). Further conflict in 1973 led to the United Nations Security Council resolution 338 (United Nations Security Council, 1973), which made an open call for peace negotiations. On November 22 of 1974, in resolution 3236 (XXIX) of the United Nations General Assembly, the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people were “reaffirmed” with specifications on the “right to self-determination without external interference; the right to national independence and sovereignty; and the right of Palestinians to return to their homes and property, from which they had been displaced and uprooted” (United Nations, 2019; United Nations General Assembly, 1974a). On the same day – November 22, 1974, the United Nations General Assembly conferred Observer Status on the Palestinian Liberation Organization or the PLO (United Nations General Assembly, 1974b). With November 10 of 1975 resolution 3376 (XXX), in the United Nations General Assembly, there was the establishment of the Committee on the Exercise of the Inalienable Rights of the Palestinian people with a request for a systematic set of recommendations on the implementation of the enabling of the rights of the Palestinian people (United Nations General Assembly, 1975).

Circa June, 1982, Israel aimed to eliminate the PLO through aggressing against Lebanon, where a ceasefire was arranged, eventually, as the PLO left Beirut and transferred to “neighbouring countries” with Israeli forces completely leaving Lebanon in June of 1985 (United Nations, n.d.; The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica, 2019). The International Conference on the Question of Palestine (ICQP) adopted some principles including “the need to oppose Israeli settlements and Israeli actions to change the status of Jerusalem, the right of all States in the region to existence within secure and internationally recognized boundaries, and the attainment of the legitimate, inalienable rights of the Palestinian people” in September of 1983 (United Nations, n.d.; United Nations, 1983). In 1987, a mass uprising took place against the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories (occupied Palestinian territory or the oPt) in an event known as the Intifada/Intifadah, or the “shaking off,” with the “methods used by the Israeli forces” creating “mass injuries and heavy loss of life among the civilian Palestinian population” (United Nations, n.d.; Araj, B. & Brym, R.J., 2018). The Palestine National Council in Algiers, in 1988, “proclaimed the establishment of the State of Palestine” (United Nations, n.d.) with the proclamation of independence on November 15, 1988 relayed by ambassador Abdullah Salah and (in Annex I) Dr. Riyad Mansour, Deputy Permanent Observer (United Nations Security Council, 1988). In Madrid, Spain in 1991, there was a Peace Conference convened for the purpose of the direct negotiations for a peaceful settlement of disputes between Israel and Arab States and Israel and Palestinians (United Nations, n.d.) because of resolution 242 (United Nations Security Council, 1967) and resolution 338 (United Nations Security Council, 1973), which resulted in the “mutual recognition between the Government of Israel and the PLO, the representative of the Palestinian people” in the signing of the Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements, the DOP, or the Oslo Accord from 1993 (United Nations, 1993). These lead to partial withdrawal of Israeli forces, and the elections of the Presidency of the Palestinian Authority and the elections to the Palestinian Council (United Nations, n.d.), with, importantly, the “establishment of a functioning administration in the areas under Palestinian self-rule.”

The Oslo Accords deferred some issues until permanent status negotiations held at Camp David in 2000 and at Taba in 2001 with inconclusive results at the time (Ibid.). In Jerusalem in 2000, Ariel Sharon of the Likud Party of Israel travelled to and visited Al-Haram Al-Sharif (Temple Mount), the second intifada or the Al-Aqsa Intifada followed this event and then Israel began construction of the separation wall of the West Bank with locations “mostly within the Occupied Palestinian Territory” (Beauchamp, 2018; United Nations, n.d.). An action ruled as illegal by the International Criminal Court. The United Nations Security Council affirmed an Israel-Palestine two-States solution to the issue (United Nations Security Council, 2002). The Arab League (2020) adopted the Arab Peace Initiative in 2002 (Agence France-Presse (AFP), 2002) followed by, on May 7 of 2003, the European Union, Russia, the United Nations, and the United States of America, also known as the Quartet (United Nations, 2020) – who follow the principles of “non-violence, recognition of Israel, and acceptance of previous agreements” (Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs, 2008; United Nations, 2020), publishing “A Performance-based Road Map to a Permanent Two-State Solution to the Israeli-Palestinian” (United Nations Security Council, 2003a). The United Nations Security Council resolution 1515, on November 19 of 2003, endorsed “A Performance-based Road Map to a Permanent Two-State Solution to the Israeli-Palestinian” proposed “a three-phased performance-based strategy to move the peace process towards a final resolution of the conflict.” The Israelis and the Palestinians widely promoted an unofficial Geneva peace accord in 2003, too (United Nations, n.d.). Israel, in 2005, withdrew both “settlers and troops” from Gaza while maintaining control over the airspace, borders, and seashore (Ibid.). With the Palestinian legislative elections in 2006, the Quartet ensured support on a conditional basis to the Palestinian Authority with requisite commitments to nonviolence, a recognition of Israel, and an acceptance of previous agreements, i.e., the affirmed guiding principles as endorsed in United Nations Security Council resolution 1515 (United Nations Security Council, 2003b; United Nations, 2020; United Nations, n.d.).

However, with an aggressive/armed takeover of Gaza by Hamas in June of 2007, Israel imposed a blockade, which followed a series of restrictions on Gaza by Israel in the 1990s onwards with the culmination of the blockade with approximately 1.8 million or more Palestinians in Gaza “locked-in” to the Gaza Strip (Oxfam International, 2019; United Nations, n.d.; United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, n.d.). November 27, 2007 to about the end of 2008 exemplified another attempt at a peace process with the Annapolis process (Canadians for Justice and Peace in the Middle East (CJPME), 2017). Operation “Cast Lead” in Gaza by Israeli forces followed escalations in rocket fire and air strikes in late 2008, where Human Rights Watch reported Israel violated the Fourth Geneva Convention regarding “wanton destruction” (Institute for Middle East Understanding, 2012).  Resolution 1860 was adopted by the United Nations Security Council with reiterations on Palestinian territory and eventual statehood, and the importance of a ceasefire (United Nations Security Council, 2009). In 2009, the Goldstone report resulted from the investigation into violations of international law during the recent Gaza conflict (United Nations General Assembly, 2009). The Palestinian Authority in 2009 developed a programme for the development of State institutions, which “received wide international support” (United Nations, n.d.). More peace negotiations happened in 2010, which broke down following the patterns of previous meetings following an “expiration of the Israeli settlement moratorium” (Ibid.). President Mahmoud Abbas submitted a 2011 application for the membership of Palestine in the United Nations (United Nations Security Council, 2011) with United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) admitting Palestine as a member and exploratory Israeli-Palestinian talks being held in early 2012 in Amman, Jordan (United Nations, n.d.). Following more combat breaking out in November of 2012 between Israel and Palestine, Egypt managed to get a ceasefire between all parties (United Nations Security Council, 2012). November 29, 2012, marks the granting to Palestine of non-member observer State status at the United Nations (United Nations General Assembly, 2013) with the United Nations General Assembly stating 2014 as the International Year of Solidarity with the Palestinians/“Palestinian People” (United Nations, 2014). New negotiations started in 2013 with a suspension of the talks by Israel in April of 2014 with the announcement of a “Palestinian national consensus Government” with further fighting occurring between Israel and Gaza between July and August of 2014 (United Nations, n.d.) with the adoption of resolution 2334 on settlements by the United Nations Security Council (2016).

Human Rights Watch, for some more recent coverage, provided reportage on the 2017 and 2018 contextualizations of events (Human Rights Watch, 2018; Human Rights Watch, 2019a). More recent coverage for 2019 from Human Rights Watch covers the closure or blockade imposed on the Gaza Strip by the Israeli government, the injuring of 11,453 and killing of 71 Palestinians in Gaza circa November 11, 2019 (with another 114 injured and 33 killed between November 12 and 14) by Israeli forces, the injuring of 123 and killing of 4 Israelis and firing of 1,378 rockets towards Israel by Palestinian armed groups, unlawful Israeli settlements in the West Bank and East  Jerusalem, discriminatory policies and demolition of Palestinian homes by Israelis, “onerous” restrictions of movement imposed by Israel on Palestinians, arbitrary detention and the detention of children by Israel of Palestinians, Palestinian Authority’s “in effect” criminalization of dissent through detention of Palestinians based on insulting “higher authorities” and the creation of “sectarian strife” including 752 detainments for “social media posts,” the upcoming Israeli elections (March, 2020) and the National State Law or the Basic Law: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People (State of Israel, 2018) impacts on inequality in the prioritization to construct homes and revocation of Arab as a state language in Israel, the Israeli government attempts to and Supreme Court decision for the expelling of a Human Rights Watch official, i.e., Omar Shakir, (Human Rights Watch, 2019b; Ayyub, 2019; Democracy Now!, 2019; Conley, 2019) or the prevention of a Palestinian staff member of Amnesty International, Laith Abu Zeyad, from traveling outside of the Occupied West Bank (Amnesty International, 2019; Middle East Monitor, 2019) or entry into Israel of United States Congresswomen Ilhan Omar and Rashida Tlaib (BBC News, 2019; The Associated Press/CBC News, 2019), the non-legal status of same-sex marriage in Israel, acknowledgement of the ongoing issues related to the annexation of the Golan Heights and other bounded geographic areas, issues around global tourism centered on Airbnb, the conclusion of the prosecutor (International Criminal Court, n.d.), Fatou Bensouda, for the International Criminal Court (ICC) for meeting the criteria to move forward with a formal investigation into these issues, and some more (Human Rights Watch, 2020a). For a more comprehensive look, please examine the publication “Born Without Civil Rights: Israel’s Use of Draconian Military Orders to Repress Palestinians in the West Bank” by Human Rights Watch (2019c). Now, since Session 3 of this educational series, Shakir worked outside of Israel based on expulsion from Israel because of the decision of the Israeli Supreme Court about Shakir.

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License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Kwabena 5 – Newsletters, Podcasts, and Outreach

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/03/20

Kwabena “Michael” Osei-Assibey is the President of the Humanist Association of Ghana. We will be conducting this educational series to learn more about humanism and secularism within Ghana. Here we talk about newsletters, podcasts, outreach, and media.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Has there been work for the development of print materials like newsletters, blog posts, and so on, for the Humanist Association of Ghana?

Kwabena “Michael” Osei-Assibey: Yes. However, we do not have any in print. As part of reducing our carbon footprint as an organization, all our resources are online. Our monthly newsletter, the Hagtivist Report is subscription-based and it features stories, news, articles and links to other interesting multimedia. The newsletter also introduces subscribers to entries on our blog. Our blog is on our website and features a range of stories and articles written by members. 

Jacobsen: Why form a podcast? How has this been helpful in providing another angle of outreach for humanism in Ghana?

Osei-Assibey: The podcast was initially just another outlet for members to express themselves. The initial format was that of a newsroom, discussions around topics in the news and of interest to the podcast team. It evolved to a space to discuss ideas and now as a vehicle to tell humanist stories, and share humanist values. Although the listener-ship of the podcast is small, it is growing. The way I look at it, all these resources are more for future generations of freethinkers and humanists, a way of ensuring that they have access to our ideas and thoughts as African freethinkers from this space and time. Our stories, values, ideas, hopes, plans; all become valuable resources to anyone trying to find their way to humanism.  

Jacobsen: What other medium be covered for the Humanist Association of Ghana? I am aware of some feminist audiovisual materials.

Osei-Assibey: Yes! The feminist videos were great. It was part of a series trying to humanize feminism. It was called Feminist Voices. We took part in Atheist Voices with a subgroup from the Humanist Association of Ghana called Atheists in Ghana. We have plans of releasing Queer Voices as well. Some materials will also be released from our Honest Discussion Series where we discuss issues pertaining to beliefs with some believers and atheists. In all this, the goal is to create as much content as possible, showing our ideas as Freethinkers and humanists from an African perspective. 

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Kwabena.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Minister Poppei 3 – Open Reflections and Thoughts Through “Opening Word”

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/03/20

Minister Amanda Poppei is a Senior Leader & Unitarian Universalist Minister at the Washington Ethical Society (Ethical Culture and Unitarian Universalist). Here we talk about some of the Opening Word and Opening Song

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: How is the Opening Word important for setting a tone of the service? What have been some recent contents of opening words for the Washington Ethical Society?

Minister Amanda Poppei:
I try to choose words that will not only introduce the theme or core message of the platform service, but will also set the tone. If we are having a platform that is about grief, the opening words will be more comforting or thoughtful. If a platform about justice, then I’ll choose words that exhort or inspire. Most of my opening words are poems, some are quotes or readings. I write them myself sometimes, but mostly share words from someone else. 

Jacobsen: Why have those topics been focused on, in the recent opening words? How do these provide a context to transition into an Opening Song, which, as you noted, is a sing-along format?

Poppei: Sometimes I get lucky and find a poem or reading that really leads into the opening song perfectly, but most of the time it’s about having a similar tone. 

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Minister Poppei.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Interview with Mark A. Yuskis (with Jeanette Carter and Caryl Lyons): Co-Founder/Coordinator, UUSIC Secular Humanists (Iowa City, Iowa)

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/03/17

Mark A. Yuskis is the Co-Founder/Coordinator of the UUSIC Secular Humanists from Iowa City, Iowa. Jeannette Carter and Caryl Lyons are part of the same community.

Here we talk about some of their lives, and much of their work and community.

*Please see Appendix I for the Mission Statements, Appendix II for the Vision Statements, Appendix III for the “A Secular Humanist Considers Our Fourth Principle” transcript, Appendix IV for the reason behind the comments by Yuskis, “Scott, you were so very generous and supportive in your comments to me…” and Appendix V for an image of a flyer for the Andrew L. Seidel Event. I tend not to share private correspondence in such a direct manner. Same with interactions, as I continue to see these as such, as per the title, as private. However, given the gentleness and respectfulness of the request, I am obliging here.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What is family background? What are some pivotal moments in personal history important for the development of humanistic sensibilities and a humanist outlook for you?

Caryl Lyons: I was raised as a Presbyterian, regular attender every Sunday throughout elementary and high school. Then became a Methodist with my husband-to-be in college. We co-taught Sunday school to elementary students. I sang in choirs at both churches and attended Presbyterian youth groups through high school.

Mostly the fact that my father was a political science professor and sponsor of the International Relations Club. We often had people from many countries and of various religions in our home. Very early on, I knew that there was more than one way to envision the world, and that good people came from everywhere. I first questioned Presbyterianism as a 5th or 6th grader, realizing that I didn’t think I believed in God. I kind of buried that for a long time since my family, especially my father, was so religious, though very accepting of people from many backgrounds. But as we taught Sunday school, the other teachers began pressuring us to try to get money from our “students” to send Bibles to places that were not Christian, and we decided we couldn’t do that. So we stepped away from that sort of evangelical Christianity. After we married, we went to church exactly once and then took a 25-year hiatus from religion until we, almost by accident, discovered Unitarian Universalism.

Mark A. Yuskis: I grew up in NW Illinois, the son of a Catholic father and Church of Christ mother; so, I was raised Methodist. President of our Intermediate Youth Fellowship in Jr. High and then President of our Methodist Youth Fellowship in High School, I took this religion stuff very seriously. Why would adults proffer untruths? If this was true, it was nothing to “mess around” with; I kicked kids out of our popular yard for swearing! Those years of happy, religious “fake news” lasted until University studies in Biology, when Biochemistry, Comparative Vertebrate Anatomy, Embryology, and Evolutionary Biology made clear an evolutionary path from beginning to present that needed no supernatural help. Ideas like Virgin Birth, Resurrection, Heaven, Hell, Soul, and all that supernatural stuff made no sense and Eternal Life…how boring that would be after a hundred, a thousand, a million, and especially 5 billion years when the expanding sun engulfed our burnt crisp of a cinder Earth. I was an Atheist! An atheist who eventually became the whole Biology Department at Mount St. Claire College along the Mississippi River in Clinton, Iowa with a host of dear, delightful, liberal Franciscan Sisters who thought I was St. Francis reincarnate. They’d sit in on some of my classes and had no problem with evolution or the long history of Earth; they were bright and very progressive. They rarely showed their contempt for the Patriarchy of their religion, but it was there. My discovery of organized Humanism came when I moved to Iowa City and found the Unitarian Universalist Society there. A UU Society member, Betty McCollister, was also on the Board of the American Humanist Association. She took me under her wing, mentored me, and showed me that Humanism was much more than atheism; it affirmed Social Justice for all humanity across the planet, Democracy and Equality in human affairs, Moral Education of children, Rights of reproductive choice and sexual preference, Skepticism of untested claims, and an Optimistic viewpoint, and so on. I was on a path now of Humanistic Unitarian Universalism. The two philosophies wove together quite well for me. Though as UUism started to further embrace Spiritualism and the Language of Reverence around the turn of this century, we atheistic humanists started to feel somewhat marginalized in our formerly staunchly Humanist UU Society. Thus, we established our Secular Humanist group at UUSIC. We chose “secular” to distinguish ourselves from the UU Religious Humanists. We didn’t feel religious. We didn’t come to/join UUSIC for “religious growth,” rather we joined for the Humanistic Principles and Community. For us, it wasn’t a perfect fit, but it was the “best game in town.”

Jacobsen: How did you find the UUS Secular Humanist Community in Iowa City?

Lyons: We went to the funeral of a young man, adopted son of friends and a classmate of our daughter, who had committed suicide at age 14. He left a letter blaming a girl. We heard the then-minister of UUSIC give a humanist funeral, where there was no talk of God or heaven or angels or any of the trappings of a Christian funeral (“I go to prepare a place for you.”). Instead, the sermon was addressed to the teenage friends of the young man, telling them that they were not responsible for his death, that parents and teachers and counselors and everyone had tried to help him without success, and that this was a decision that the young man had made for himself. We mourned him but could not blame ourselves.

Hearing the UUS minister say these things was a life changing moment for me to realize that there were people who thought as we did. Then we read the 7 principles and knew we had found something special. We didn’t yet even know the concept of humanism, but when we read the principles, we knew they represented us. We attended the society within the next several weeks and joined by the fall after the summer funeral. That was 33 years ago.

When we first joined in 1986, UUS was quite a humanist group, I now know. Nearly 15 or so years later, it was becoming somewhat less so, enough that my husband and I wondered if it still was fitting in with out beliefs or lack of them. That was when Mark and a few others started the Secular Humanist group. We joined it almost immediately and its existence has kept us happily in the UUS community for another nearly 20 years. Being more accepting of those with views that fit more into the religious than the secular mode has been possible for me because I have had the UU Secular Humanists to relate to and work with for all these years. There is a rather large group of secular humanists but there is also an even larger group of people whose beliefs seem to be only a little more like those of members of mainstream religions, and then there is a group who are focused on spirituality, unlike most of us Secular Humanists.

Yuskis: New to Iowa City and seeking “community but not church,” noting that the Unitarian Universalists (who I’d never heard of before) called themselves a Society and not a Church, I was curious. I visited, read their Principles, met several members and stayed. And, as I shared above, we eventually felt the need to organize a Secular Humanist Group at UUSIC. I’ve been the Coordinator/Facilitator for most of the group’s 16 years.

Jacobsen: As the Co-Founder and Coordinator of the UUS SecHum Group Iowa City, what tasks and responsibilities come with the position, how have these change over a decade and a half of service to the community?

Yuskis: My role as Coordinator over the years has been basically two-fold: plan programs and facilitate meetings. Our Secular Humanist group meets on the 3rd Tuesday, monthly between September through May, following the Academic Calendar of the University of Iowa and the Liturgical Season of UUSIC. Facilitating meetings is the easier responsibility; it involves setting an Agenda, including a Welcome/Introduction, Announcements, Old Business, Upcoming Events/Meetings, and Introduction of our Speaker or Topic for Discussion or Program/Video. A very important responsibility is ending the formal meeting on time – some of the looks or tapping on watches are subtle reminders that “it is time!” We then adjourn to informal conversation, chatting with the speaker, and sharing of treats and beverages. Planning programs, lining up speakers, and coordinating special events are the real challenge to sustaining an active, well-attended SecHum group. It is also the most satisfying, especially when all goes well and as planned. (Later responses go into examples of special speakers, presenters, and special moments that perpetuate interest in our group.) One very significant change over the years is that for the last 5, or so, years SecSI (the Secular Students at Iowa (University of)) have continually attended our monthly meetings. Around 15 students generally join us, adding a fresh, youthful perspective to discussions. SecSI often prepares and presents one meeting during the year. One memorable meeting they prepared was a Video Compilation of Irreverent, Off-Color videos and cartoon clips. Not shocked or appalled, but rather thoroughly entertained were we by their creativity and unabashed sharing. They are very bright and add to our SecHum experience. Another change over the years is that we no longer set out a contribution basket for Wine Money. With some of the students being underage and with UUSIC formulating all sorts of new rules about this and that, we don’t have the autonomy to do these things “under the radar.” We no longer have our own independent checking account; it’s amazing we ever did! But we did, and it was very convenient and expeditious.

Jacobsen: What are the demographics of the community of 20-40 members who attend at regular events and 150 members who attend at special events?

Yuskis: As stated earlier, UUSIC has historically been a very Humanist UU Society. When I first discovered UUSIC about 1995, I felt a kinship and real philosophical “home” among like-minded folks. That has changed somewhat over time (emphasis on Spirituality and the Language of Reverence mentioned before) and our group has steadily aged. The UU makeup of our group is typically older, most in their 60s through 90s. I just turned 70 and am probably younger than the average age of the UU folks in the group. Now the advent of SecSI, ages 18 -24, into our group has greatly reduced our average age. The problem, not actually a problem, is that unlike us, they never get older; they are just replaced by newer students, the same age. The special event that attracted around 150, mostly UU, people was An Evening with Walt Whitman (see poster advertisement attached). Sponsored and planned by our Secular Humanist group, it celebrated the first anniversary of UUSIC being in our newly constructed, beautiful, “greenest” church in Iowa. With the University of Iowa so close, we were able to enlist two internationally respected/celebrated Whitman scholars, Ed Folsom, the Editor of the Whitman Quarterly Review, and Christopher Merrill, the Director of the International Writing Program at Iowa. One UU member called the “Evening” the best program he had seen at UUSIC. We’d like to think it WAS one of the best. We’ve also sponsored Dinner/Theatre and other events at UUSIC, on Campus, and soon at the celebrated Prairie Lights Bookstore, downtown Iowa City, where we’ll host Andrew Seidel of the Freedom From Religion Foundation in Madison, WI as he presents/reads from his new book Founding MYTH: Why Christian Nationalism is Un-American. Andrew is currently on a coast-to-coast tour promoting this book.

Jacobsen: How do these demographics change the characteristics and possibilities of the events?

Yuskis: Because we are now joined by SecSI for our meetings and so cherish their presence and contributions, we no longer meet at UUSIC, where we met when we had our 100+-year-old building downtown next to campus (easy for students to walk to). Now, we meet at Old Brick, another old church building saved from demolition years ago and now serving many agencies and as a meeting place, wedding site, etc. Our new UU building is over in Coralville now, too far for students to travel, thus Old Brick. The students rarely attend Sunday Services at the UU, most find it too “churchy” for their tastes (as Secular Humanists frequently do). Our programming also benefits from opportunities to join in some SecSI events for an occasional monthly meeting of ours. Recently, we joined them on campus for a presentation by Dan Barker, Co-President of Freedom From Religion Foundation. Dan spoke about his new book Life Driven Purpose: How an Atheist Finds Meaning. Our group is familiar with Dan and Staff Attorneys from FFRF, as they have presented for us over the years. Our members share FFRF memberships and a few are Life Members of FFRF.

Jacobsen: What have been the more special moments in community for you? Why?

Jeannette Carter: Some of the special moments have been when we heard from our UI group of students about their struggles growing up as atheists; having programs presented at our UU Society by Mark and others to the general UU congregation on Sundays, and “spreading the word” about secularism; working on being a secular, atheist member of a general society which doesn’t look favourably on such beliefs; seeing the commercial by Ron Reagan on national T.V. promoting the Freedom from Religion Foundation.

Yuskis: A very special moment of this Secular Humanist community had to be the inaugural meeting of August 21, 2003. I opened the meeting with a reading from that “Good Gray Poet” and my gay, atheist comrade Walt Whitman:       

I think I could turn and live with animals,

they’re so placid and self-contain’d,

I stand and look at them long and long.        

They do not sweat and whine about their condition,

They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins,   

They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God,       

Not one is dissatisfied, nor one is demented with the mania of owning things,

Not one kneels to another, nor to his kind that lived thousands of years ago,

Not one is respectable or unhappy over the whole earth,     

So they show their relations to me and I accept them.

Interestingly, after this start with Walt Whitman, we had our “biggest” event 15 years later with our Evening with Walt Whitman, featuring Whitman scholars Ed Folsom and Christopher Merrill (see above). I gave a Summer Service talk June 16, 2006: “Secular Humanists Add to the UUSIC Experience.” The talk was part of the summer theme This I Believe. I joked that they asked a confirmed atheist to speak thinking “maybe it would be a SHORT talk?” Well, I used my full time. Starting with some personal background and various past and future programs as our “contributions.” I ended with a “match that quote with its author” game. With names of historical figures posted on the wall in front, folks had a handout with 12 quotes to match. After they finished their “quizzes,” I read the quotes and gave the authors. There were many “oos” and “ahs” as they got them right or not. Since claiming that our group added to the UU experience, we have sponsored several special events:            

In November, 2007 we invited Dan Barker, Co-President of the Freedom From Religion Foundation to share his story of From Boy Evangelist to Adult Atheist. We held a Chili Dinner prior. After dinner we retired upstairs to the Sanctuary where Dan played our baby grand and sang familiar melodies, but with altered, irreverent lyrics from his CD. Over 60 attended. We’ve maintained a close relationship with FFRF ever since.

While in Hawaii, I met Gary Anderson at the Honolulu UU. He toured the country doing a One-Man Theatrical Performance of CLARENCE DARROW: THE SEARCH FOR JUSTICE. We booked him for April 11, 2008. Fortunately, our UU’s Susan Boyd, wife of Univ. of Iowa’s President Emeritus, Sandy Boyd, for whom our Law School Building is named, made it possible for this event to be held in the Law School’s Supreme Court Chambers (Levitt Auditorium). Gary was marvellous; it was the most memorable performance in the perfect setting.     

In September, 2014 SecSI (Secularists at Iowa at that time) invited Sean Faircloth of Secularity USA to speak at the Iowa Memorial Union on his new book Attack of the Theocrats: How the Religious Right Harms Us All – and What We Can Do About It. The night before, our Secular Humanist group sponsored a Reception for Sean in Channing Hall at our old UUSIC building on 10 S. Gilbert. More than 50 attended, including UUs, Students, and others interested. This event marked a turning point in the development of a close relationship between our UU Secular Humanist group and the Secular Students at Iowa. We had over 50 attend our reception and the students’ IMU event with Sean was very successful.

In March of 2015 the UU Secular Humanists hosted Floyd Sandford, retired Biology Professor at Coe College in Cedar Rapids, for a Dinner/Theater event. Floyd travels the country performing his One Man Show: Darwin Remembers – Recollections of a Life’s Journey, in two acts. I set the stage in Channing Hall at the UU as Darwin’s Study, complete with plants, and ancient zoological specimens in glass containers (from the Coe College Biology Department where I was hired after Floyd retired). We began the evening with a Chili Supper. Floyd was convincing as his Darwin character and shared much of Darwin’s personal life and struggles. Around 75 people filled Channing Hall. It was another night to remember at UUSIC. We raised $725 of which $225 went to support SecSI, $100 went to the UU Young Adults group, and we sent $400 to the Southern Poverty Law Center.    

On Saturday, October 27, 2018 we presented An Evening with Walt Whitman in the Sanctuary of the beautiful, new UU Society building, our most ambitious venture to date. After commitments from Ed Folsom, world renown Whitman scholar and Editor of the Whitman Quarterly Review, and Christopher Merrill, Director of the Univ. of Iowa’s prestigious International Writing Program and driving force in Iowa City gaining UNESCO City of Literature status, we partnered with the UU Board to make this a First Anniversary Celebration of being in our new building. Ed and Chris shared reflections on Whitman’s democratic epic “Song of Myself” and on Whitman’s recently discovered “Lost Book” The Life and Adventures of Jack Engle. We had nearly 150 in attendance. Cake, coffee, book sales and signing followed in the Fellowship Hall. A great evening for all who attended.

Maybe more to the question asked, Jeanette Carter, UU Secular Humanist since its establishment, shared: “One of the special moments in community with SecSI was when they shared their struggles growing up as atheists.” I’ll add to that by saying there is a mutuality in our relationship with SecSI; I believe it is comforting to those students who could not “come out” to their, especially religious, families to find a community of like-minded folks their parents’ (make that often their grandparents’) age. And, of course, we have benefitted from these young students’ enthusiasm and curiosity and deep questioning of so much. We have also found great comradery in meeting, interacting, sharing, and supporting other area Atheist and Humanist groups; such as, Humanists of Linn County (Cedar Rapids) with whom we’ve joined in some of their events and they in ours. We met and conferred with a delegation from the Des Moines UU who wanted advice on the Freethinker Friendly Congregation designation (granted through the UUA’s UU Humanist Association), which we had just completed working on with our congregation and that they were just considering. More on our process and results and feelings of the FFC next) (Also, please see comments from Jeanette Carter and Caryl Lyons on special moments) Another important recent event was a Sunday Service I presented August, 2018: A Secular Humanist Considers Our 4th Principle: a Free and Responsible Search for Truth and Meaning. It was the highest attended service of the summer, a full house. I’ll attach the text of my Talk [Ed. Please see Appendix III.]

Jacobsen: What are the challenges of community for you? What are the benefits of community for you? What makes sense of a UU and a Secular Humanist view on the nature of the world and the ethics of human relations to you?

Carter: The greatest challenge is to find like-minded people who can come together for discussion and reflection (besides our Secular Humanist group); trying to fit in to Sunday services at our UU Society, which carries the trappings of traditional Christian churches in their services; feeling comfortable in a “Christian” nation.

Lyons: UUS gives a place from which to operate within the broader community, supporting many forms of social justice and social activism. The larger UUS community is very involved in terms of social activism, both as a congregation and as individual members. Some of our ministers have been extremely active within the Iowa City community in terms of giving a face to UUism, which makes me happy. The UU community also provides enrichment benefits individually, such as a book discussion group I have been part of for 30 years. Also, we, as almost all “faith” organizations do, provide support for each other at times of crisis in our lives—providing food, rides to appointments, conversations, or whatever is needed. It seems to me that the 7 principles are what ties secular humanists to the rest of the society. They are what we all basically agree on. Other differences sometimes seem like basic differences and sometimes seem to be mostly semantic. But words do make a difference.

Our secular humanist focus on books such as “Good without God” speaks to our beliefs that ethics are centered in how we treat other human beings and how we live our lives based on our UU 7 principles rather than on any “divinely inspired texts” or any kind of creeds. Something I like best about UUS services are these words we say each Sunday: “Love is the doctrine of this church, the search for truth is our sacrament, and service is our prayer.” This, to me, is secular humanism, and no one seems to be objecting to saying these words regularly.

Yuskis: Probably our greatest challenge in being in “community” within our UU congregation came after our year-long effort working with our congregation to become a designated Freethinker Friendly Congregation. We held forums, had informational tables during coffee hours, handed out brochures we made describing all facets, criteria, and benefits of becoming an FFC. All went “swimmingly” for 11 months and we thought we’d done so well and it would easily pass a congregational vote. In the last month, we started to hear concerns and doubts from members of our UU Society. Prior to the vote at the Congregational Meeting there were many surprisingly negative comments and one member passionately exclaimed, “this is so divisive, this is so divisive.” The vote tally was 78 yes, 42 no, and 18 abstain, not sufficient support to proceed with our application to the UU Humanist Association. This was the most disappointing time of our 16 years as part of our UU community. Our minister is now conducting 8 monthly forums designed to “bridge the gap in our Theological Diversity.” [Please see also comments by Jeanette and Caryl on “challenges and benefits” I’ve emailed] To me the benefits of being humanists/atheists in a UU community include being mostly accepted within the broad reach of UUism, having a community whose Principles are very humanistic, and affording an opportunity to be in community with other thoughtful, liberal people eager to serve and work toward a better world. Early in my UU years, I had the pleasure of serving on the Welcoming Congregation committee, which was successful in getting the UUA designation that specifically welcomes GLBT+ people. I also headed up our Free Lunch committee for nearly a decade. So yes, the two sets, UUism and Secular Humanism, I feel greatly overlap and atheists, agnostics, skeptics, and other freethinkers fit somewhat easily in that intersection, can find meaningful community, and feel very much at home (maybe with ignoring some of the supernaturalism, mysticism, and “bad science” embraced by some at the other end of the Theological Spectrum of UUism).

Jacobsen: Any recommended authors, organizations, or speakers?

Yuskis:

Authors we’ve read/discussed:                        

  • Four Horsemen of Atheism (Christopher Hitchens, Daniel Dennett, Sam Harris, and Richard Dawkins)                          
  • Steven Pinker.
  • Susan Jacoby.
  • Michelle Goldberg – Kingdom Coming.
  • Greg Epstein – Good without God.
  • Hector Avalos – Bad Jesus.

Organizations:

  • FFRF of Madison.
  • WI.
  • AHA.
  • UU Humanist Association.
  • Americans United for Church and State Separation.
  • Council for Secular Humanism.
  • Secular Student Alliance.

Speakers:

  • Dan Barker and Staff Attorneys from FFRF.
  • Andrew Seidel – Founding MYTH (FFRF).
  • Robert Cargill (He is a wonderful presenter) – University of Iowa Department of Classics and Religious Studies, a CNN contributor for Finding Jesus, and author of Journey through the Archeology and Cities that Built the Bible.

Jacobsen: Any final feelings or thoughts in conclusion?

Yuskis: Scott, you were so very generous and supportive in your comments to me about my concerns of being such “small potatoes” in comparison to the Big Guys and Large Organizations who you cover/interview and who support atheist, secular, and humanist thought, values, and concerns here in North America and internationally. Those words meant a lot to me and to our group. Thank you. I think if you shared that comment some way in your postings that it would mean a lot and resonate and give an uplift to other small groups like ours in Canada, the US, and beyond. If all this rambling doesn’t merit any type of posting, that’s cool. It’s been an important exercise for me (and others) to reflect upon all our years as a UU Secular Humanist Group here in Iowa City, to think of all the good people who found kindred mentalities with a science-, reason-, and evidence-based take on the nature of the world around us and our part there within, and to be in deep, appreciative community together in a world ripe in superstition and supernatural beliefs.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Mark.

Appendix I: Mission Statements

As Secular Humanists we welcome atheists, agnostics, freethinkers, and other non-theists who desire a community that embraces reason, science-based inquiry, humanist values, and the separation of church and state.

As Secular Humanists we take a life stance that embraces healthy relationships, reason, rational ethics, and scientific naturalism as bases for morality, decision making, emotional well-being, social justice, and graceful living.

As part of a strong and altruistic Secular Humanist movement, we take responsibility for finding personal purpose and fulfillment in life, and work to benefit humanity through using free inquiry, reason, science, critical thinking, and compassion.

Guided by reason, inspired by compassion, and informed by experience, we affirm our ability and responsibility to lead meaningful, ethical lives of personal fulfillment that aspire to the greater good of humanity.

To provide to the greater Iowa City area a secular community, free from religious dogma and supernatural beliefs, that promotes the greater good of society based on science, reason, and moral and ethical thinking.

Appendix II: Vision Statements

We offer social interaction, education, and programs that explore and promote secularism, social justice, non-theistic advocacy, and compassion, free from supernaturalism, pseudoscience, and superstition.

We provide a socially active and involved community of atheist, agnostics, and other non-theists for UUS members, Secular Students at Iowa, and the Johnson County area.  We strive to promote secular values and enrich the lives of members and visitors through meaningful programs, expert speakers, and special events of interest to secularists.

We provide a community for non-theists, eschew supernaturalism, educate members and visitors via programming, discussions, and interaction to promote secular values and reduce the stigma of non-belief. We strive to move secular humanism from intellectual exercise to true social movement.

Through our activities and discussions, we hope to educate the public about secular ethics, speak out as advocates for the separation of church and state, and promote a philosophy that reliable knowledge is best obtained when we use the scientific method, seek to develop and improve ethical principles by examining the results they yield in the lives of real men and women, stand for human rights and social justice, and assert that humanity must be responsible for its own destiny.

In our individual and collective relationships with religious humanists at UUS and with the congregation as a whole, members of UUSSH practice radical acceptance of one another’s beliefs, and we greatly value the opportunity to join with UU religious humanists for social action based on our shared humanistic values.

Within our UUS Secular Humanists group, members of UUSSH practice scientific skepticism as our means of seeking truth and meaning regarding or own and others’ beliefs, and we focus on promoting separation of church and state and the use of scientific rationalism as the basis of ethics and a just world.

A secular community that provides to members and to the public the opportunity to understand, enhance, enrich, and promote secular values through meaningful programs, expert speakers, and special events to bring about social justice for all.

Appendix III: A Secular Humanist Considers Our Fourth Principle

*Presentation of the text given on August 26, 2018.*

Good morning, I’m here today representing our UUS Secular Humanist Group, and we are dangerous! The late (thank…goodness) Sen. Jesse Helms of N.C. wrote that, “When the U.S. Supreme Court denied children from participating in voluntary public school prayers…it also established a national religion in the United States – the religion of Secular Humanism.” Jesse had a few details wrong about the ruling, but details or the “truth” weren’t things to deter his, or others’, zeal and rhetorical flourishes!

 In “A Christian Manifesto,” the evangelical theologian Francis Schaeffer claimed that: the humanist worldview includes many thousands of adherents and today controls the consensus in society, much of the media, much of what is taught in our schools, and much of the Law being produced… (he continues)… The Law, especially the courts, is the vehicle to (force) this total humanistic way of thinking upon the entire population. I think he underestimates our numbers and overestimates our powers, but he, and his ilk, would likely be pleased to see the direction that the Courts may now be heading.

I’d like to share with you the UUS Secular Humanist’s recently adopted Mission Statement, and let you be the judge of just how “dangerous” we are. After a year’s work with much member input, our Mission states:

We are a secular community promoting the use of reason, scientific inquiry, humanist values, and church/state separation as the bases for a just world.

You may wonder why we use Secular Humanists, rather than just Humanists, or Religious Humanists? Well, that’s been commonly asked of us. When we organized 15 years ago, our then minister at our initial meeting argued that we needn’t form a new group, because there was a UUA sanctioned Huumanist organization (with 2 Us in Humanist, of course), and it had a publication called Religious Humanism. Frankly, we didn’t and don’t feel “religious” and we concurred that “secular” described better our take on Humanism. One interim minister even called us an “oxymoron.” Our choice of Secular was a conscious decision, much like the decision in -1961- when the Unitarians and Universalists merged, to call ourselves the Unitarian Universalist SOCIETY of Iowa City, instead of a church.

Even in 1841 when first established in Iowa City, they chose to be called…First Universalist Society. Now, we’ve pretty much let that church/society issue go…it’s just awkward saying “I’m going to Society meeting today at our new Society building.” Now for complete disclosure, for a while in our earlier history, we did call ourselves: “All Souls” and I couldn’t find if we finished that with Church or Society of Iowa City. Jeanette or others on our Historical Records Committee could likely settle that question for us.

I’m here in Title today to consider our 4th Principle as a Secular Humanist. I could make this real brief by acknowledging Mary Loesch’s talk and just say “ditto.” Or similar for Kim and Lula’s talk earlier this month. Lula shared with me after their talk: “I think I’m a secular humanist,” I responded “I think so.”

I’ll start briefly with the notion of a Free search, and finish with a personal comment on Meaning, but focus mainly on, from my perspective, what a Responsible search is, and what makes a reasoned Truth. I often say I’ve been the most and least religious person in my family…you can guess which of these I am now! As a kid I took all my Methodist instruction VERY seriously…hell or heaven, eternal salvation or damnation… this was nothing to mess with or take lightly…I even kicked kids out of our yard for swearing… if they could only hear me now, especially when the Orange Man appears on TV (and he’s always on TV)!

I guess I was Free to question or doubt (love that word doubt, wish there were more of it), but I wasn’t as precocious as others I know, and I was thoroughly soaked in my familial, cultural, and religious milieu. I didn’t have enough doubt or skepticism in those early years to question that which adults around me seemed to believe.

Finally, as a Biology Major at ISU (the one in Illinois), I started to see the light, and it cast broad shadows on my former thinking and beliefs. Oh my g..gosh, I’m an atheist! But I didn’t just toss out God, I cleaned house…no ghosts, no spirits, no soul, no miracles (I really don’t like the abuse of that word), and… no one watching all those pointing skyward after touchdowns, pins, or homeruns.

In actuality, I’m an asupernaturalist…it indeed covers way more ground. Like virgin birth (if they’d only known any reproductive biology) and resurrection (Occam’s Razor suggests the body was grave robbed, physics tells us it didn’t pass up through the cave ceiling…no two objects can occupy the same space at the same time. And, “asupernaturalist” doesn’t immediately precipitate all those negative connotations that seem to run through people’s thoughts when they hear the word “atheist.”

In the description of my talk, I suggested “the bases of our beliefs are more important and more significant than our actual beliefs. Beliefs are only as good as the ‘data’, the reasoned and open inquiry, and the facts that they’re based on. This describes a Responsible search for truth .. for me. Myth, superstition, comfort and wishful thinking, and unverifiable religious claims, including escaping death and seeing those who have “passed” before us (sometimes even our pets) … do not. You’ve heard in politics that “you can have your own opinions, but you can’t have your own facts.” I believe it’s similar that you can have your own personal subjective beliefs, but they may not be grounded in facts or a more objective universal truth.

Historically, Truth came from scriptures, whether Christian, Jewish, or Islamic. In John 14:6 of the Christian Bible, Jesus says: “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life.” Jesus also, supposedly, said: “The Truth Shall set you Free.” Well, I agree with that one.

Fortunately, this basis for Truth began to crack in the well-named 17th/18th century’s Enlightenment, when the introduction of the scientific method transformed society by using science and reason rather than political or religious dogma to explain natural phenomena. Frank O’Gorman in his book, The Long Eighteenth Century, identifies and describes this period as from 1685 to 1815. This process of enlightenment (little e) is still ongoing, while theistic religions around the world still hold sway and radical religious extremists make life intolerable and dangerous for far too many.

Though not named until Friedrich Niethammer in the early 1800s, Humanism or human centered thought has been germinating since recorded history with the Catholic Church suppressing it all along (think Galileo). Then after the Reformation this suppression was joined by the Protestants, and the evilness of Humanism is voiced viciously now by conservative and evangelical Christians. Again, I reiterate we’re really not dangerous or evil.

The Enlightenment, Humanism, and Unitarianism and Universalism have been part of a long continuum and have much historical connection.

As early as the 1830s both Unitarianism and Universalism were studying religious texts other than the Bible; and, by the early 1900s, humanists in both groups were advocating that people could be religious without believing in God… saying: no one person, no one religion, can embrace all truths.

So, from the Enlightenment, through the rise of Humanism, and its advance thru Unitarianism and Universalism, with the concomitant decline of Christian influence, we’re at a point now where UU congregations around the country (and world) have differing flavors of belief… from liberal Christian to a large congregation in London with an openly atheist, non-supernaturalist minister who puts up a sign saying “We believe in Good.” UUS falls in between these, historically leaning Humanist.

And, then comes along Postmodernism; I never appreciated Postmodernism. Just as we were developing many reasoned, objective truths about the world around us, Postmodernism casts doubts upon them, calling them relative and subjective.

Some have even called Unitarian Universalism the Postmodern religion. You’ve heard the response some have given to the question of what do UUs believe, they, unfortunately, too often respond: “Whatever you want.” But, that isn’t true; you just have to look at our 7 principles for what we Do believe in.

Daniel Dennett, famous American philosopher, is no fan of Postmodernists either; he believes (quote) “They are responsible for the intellectual fad that made it respectable to be cynical about truth and facts.”

MEANING, on the other hand, is more subjective to the individual. Some get meaning in life from the comfort of a loving, beneficent, god and the promises accorded. I totally get it, just don’t buy it.

Others, embrace a Higher Power, which may be Nature, the cosmos, a kindred community, an inter-connected humanity, or that which gives enrichment and meaning to their lives.

As for many of us, my Meaning comes from here and now, especially here at UUS. This Society has given me so much: like opportunities to contribute in ways such as:

  • Serving, and at times, leading our Welcoming Congregation effort in my earlier years and the Interweave Group that followed for GLBT folks and our amazing allies.
  • Leading the Free Lunch program for many years at the Wesley Center, when we still called to arrange for food and volunteers. I very much enjoyed those friendly chats. The funny part of that time was that the attendees thought I was the Minister. 😊 Yep, Rev. Mark…an interesting word pairing!
  • Then, 15 years ago sipping wine with Harry Kane, we decided we needed a Humanist group. UUSIC had a long, noted Humanist history. Things were changing: we were embracing the “language of reverence,” we were becoming more “churchy,” and many of us were feeling marginalized.

Thus began the Secular Humanist Group. I’ve had the privilege to lead this group for at least 10 of its 15 years. Most proudly, in the past several years we’ve been joined in our meetings with 10-20 Secular Students at Iowa, or SecSI for short.

  • In this last year, out of the Secular Humanist group has come the Freethinker Friendly Congregation Committee, working toward an official designation from the UUA’s UUHumanist Association for UUS. Just like we were welcoming to GLBT folks prior to becoming a designated Welcoming Congregation, we have been welcoming to atheists, agnostics, and other non-theists throughout our history. If approved, we will openly welcome Freethinkers of all stripes through our website, literature, and advertising.

But most importantly, the UUS has given me a wonderful community to be part of, and my dearest, closest friends.

So, you see this Society is a very special home for me and has given great Meaning to my life. And, I hope you support the Freethinker Friendly Congregation effort, so some other person like me can more easily find a life-enriching, Meaningful home and community like our UUS.

Thank you.

Appendix IV: Opening Correspondence and Response by Scott

Yuskis opened with some comments recognizing the group and the requests for emails in addition to the celebration of the 16th year as an acknowledged focus group within the Unitarian Universalist Society of Iowa City/Coralville. He noted being a co-founder and the current coordinator of the group. He described interacting, as a focus group, with most of the atheist, humanist, and secular groups in Iowa, especially from Des Moines eastward. In addition, he described being one of the oldest such groups in Iowa, by their examination of the histories and assessments of the group. They have had guest speakers including Dan Barker and Staff Attorneys from the FFRF, Madison, ISU’s Hector Avalos, David Breeden at FUS, Minneapolis, and some experts from the University of Iowa. The Andrew Seidel reading event flyer can be seen in Appendix V. He noted this is what he could share and wanted to wait to see if I wanted to proceed more. My response was probably what Yuskis intended with the final response in the interview:

Scott, you were so very generous and supportive in your comments to me about my concerns of being such “small potatoes” in comparison to the Big Guys and Large Organizations who you cover/interview and who support atheist, secular, and humanist thought, values, and concerns here in North America and internationally. Those words meant a lot to me and to our group. Thank you. I think if you shared that comment some way in your postings that it would mean a lot and resonate and give an uplift to other small groups like ours in Canada, the US, and beyond. If all this rambling doesn’t merit any type of posting, that’s cool. It’s been an important exercise for me (and others) to reflect upon all our years as a UU Secular Humanist Group here in Iowa City, to think of all the good people who found kindred mentalities with a science-, reason-, and evidence-based take on the nature of the world around us and our part there within, and to be in deep, appreciative community together in a world ripe in superstition and supernatural beliefs.

Here’s the response to the early correspondence from me:

This is great. Keep sharing, I want as many voices as possible. I noticed a dearth of ordinary voices, who, I think (and feel), should be the ones on the forefront of the entire media landscape and, often, are not there.

Next, I stated:

To use an American cliché, though Canadian while feeling like Vonnegut as a “man without a country,” size does matter to some; to others, size does not matter. In this context, size does not matter. Those larger voices would not exist except in the light of the smaller voices. I disagree with individuals who attempt to characterize the smaller groups as not as substantial as the larger groups in size, import, and influence, as this characterization seems dishonest. The larger groups are comprised of the smaller groups and the prominent voices rely on the acceptance and propping-up of the smaller groups. So, I agree, however, with the idea of the focus needing to be on the smaller groups because this puts the attention where it’s more needed for democratic decision-making and providing a voice to the oft-ignored. It comes down to the small groups at the end of the day. Furthermore, and to a deeper dream for me, the smaller groups should have some democratic command over their movements and their communities, including, even especially, in freethought movements and communities. A-women.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Interview with Edd Doerr – CEO, Americans for Religious Liberty

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/03/17

Edd Doerr was the CEO of Americans for Religious Liberty. He was in this position since 1982. He was the author of a number of books including My Life as a Humanist. He was a member of the Unitarian Universalist Church of Rockville, Maryland.

Here we talk about his life and work in brief.

*I have been informed Mr. Doerr died on February 6, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What was early life like for you, e.g., geography, culture, language, religion or lack thereof, education, and family structure and dynamics?

Edd Doerr: Grew up in Catholic schools. Made the easy change to humanist by age 18. Married. Two children. Served as president or vice-president of the American Humanist Association 14 years between 1985 and 2003. A columnist in humanist journals for over 50 years. Writer for nearly 70 years.

Jacobsen: What levels of formal education have been part of life for you? How have you informally self-educated?

Doerr: B.S. in Education, Indiana University, 200+ credit hours. Taught school in Indiana and South America for about 9 years.

Jacobsen: What were the main takeaways from those 9 years of teaching? What were the core differences that you noticed between teaching in Indiana and South America, e.g., the students and the expected educational methodology?

Doerr: In South America I taught in a private school, in the US in public schools. I came away with an appreciation for the importance of good secular education for all children and have spent the last 50-plus years defending public education and church-state separation.

Jacobsen: How did you get up to 200+ credit hours? That seems quite high. Why pursue so many credits?

Doerr: Working and going to evening classes to work on a master’s degree, which I did not quite finish.

Jacobsen: As a writer for more than 70 years and, especially, for humanist audiences, what have you seen as the main objections against humanism? What has been your standard response? Also, you debated the late Christopher Hitchens. Several years after his death, what do you consider his legacy in writing and in impact on secular culture?

Doerr: The objections to humanism by traditional religionists are too numerous to list and of course are easily refuted. A great many people in the US, Canada, Europe, and other developed countries have lost interest in religion but simply have either not heard of humanism or have given the matter little thought. Hitchens and I agreed on many things; our disagreement seemed to be over my view that humanists need to work with religious folks on issues of common interest, such as climate change, religious liberty, public education, reproductive choice. I might add that I was long a friend and admirer of Dr. Henry Morgentaler, and that I was the person who proposed Margaret (“Handmaid’s Tale”) Atwood for the Humanist of the Year award.

Jacobsen: As the President of the Americans for Religious Liberty, what tasks and responsibilities come with the position?

Doerr: Writing and editing Voice of Reason quarterly journal for 36 years. Published over 20 books. Testified at congressional hearings. Guest on hundreds of radio and TV talk shows. Lectured in over 30 states.  Plus, Canada, Mexico, Norway, Colombia.  Involved in over 70 church-state legal cases. Sadly, after 36 years ARL finally ran out of resources and had to cease operations.

Jacobsen: Founded in 1981, what have been the real victories and honest failures in the efforts of Americans for Religious Liberty for secularism, the separation of church and state?

Doerr: Hard to judge total impact, but believe that our efforts had some effect in defending secularism, public education, women’s rights, and church-state separation.

Jacobsen: Who have been integral individuals and organizations that you have collaborated with on secularism in America? What were those battles?

Doerr: Far too many to list. American Civil Liberties Union, teacher organizations, assorted coalitions, Paul Kurtz, Francis Crick, Leo Pfeffer, and many many others.

Jacobsen: What continue to be the perennial issues of the separation of church and state for the United States?

Doerr: Defending public schools, abortion rights, church-state separation, working on climate change are the major ones.

Jacobsen: What are the newer and ongoing issues? Why are these crucial issues under the current administration?

Doerr: Same as above. The Trump administration has of course been the worst in memory.

Jacobsen: Who are important voices in the combatting of these regressive forces on each of the issues listed above?

Doerr: Civil libertarians, liberal Democrats, teacher unions. pro-choice organizations, concerned citizens across the religious spectrum.

Jacobsen: What relevant books, and activists, artists, authors, philosophers, public intellectuals, scientists would you recommend for readers here?

Doerr: Among many others – Paul Kurtz, Bertrand Russell, Leo Pfeffer, ACLU, Council for Secular Humanism and Free Inquiry magazine, Isaac Asimov, Richard Dawkins.

Jacobsen: Who would you consider the greatest humanist in history?

Doerr: Many of them – Epicurus, Lucretius, Tom Paine, Darwin, Jefferson, and many more too numerous to list.

Jacobsen: How can people become involved with the donation of time, the addition of membership, links to professional and personal networks, giving monetarily, exposure in interviews or writing articles, and so on?

Doerr: Support humanist, abortion rights, environmental, public education, women’s rights, church-state separation groups. Be active on the internet where it can be useful. Write letters to editors.

Jacobsen: What are organizations dealing most effectively with those issues, specifically?

Doerr: Too many to list in the US and I am not familiar with those in Canada other than the Ontario group that defends public education.

Jacobsen: Any final feelings or thoughts based on the conversation today?

Doerr: With Trump in the White House and political and religious extremist conservatives in positions of power in many countries, we all need to work harder than ever to keep our world safe.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Edd.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Interview with Musa Abu Hashash – Field Researcher (Hebron District), B’Tselem

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/03/17

Musa Abu Hashash is a Field Researcher (Hebron District) for B’Tselem/ The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories. The organizational name, “B’Tselem,” comes from the Member of Knesset, Yossi Sarid, as an allusion to “And God created humankind in His image. In the image of God did He create them” from Genesis 1:27. B’Tselem aims to achieve democracy, equality, human rights, and liberty as a future for all people. Founded in 1989 devoted to documenting Israeli violations of Palestinians’ human rights in the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip. They have published eyewitness accounts, reports, statistics, testimonies, and video footage. After more than a half of a century of occupation, B’Tselem as a human rights organization unequivocally demands an end to the occupation.

Here we talk about his story and his work.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Let’s start with some brief background to provide a context of development for you. What are some family and personal backstory for you? Only have to provide that which you feel comfortable divulging at this time.

Musa Abu Hashash: First things first: I am Musa. My parents were refugees from a Palestinian village called Iraq Almansheyyah north of Gaza and close to the Israeli town Kiryat Gat. The village was wiped out and no marks have been left to tell about the history of the people who lived there for hundreds of years. My parents fled to Hebron district and lived in a refugee camp called Fawwar camp south of the city of Hebron where I was born and brought up in a tent for five years before UNRWA built small rooms for the families where I continued my life together with my brothers and sisters. I am the eldest. I have 26 brothers and sisters. Life in a small overcrowded house in an overcrowded refugee camp was not easy for me. I had to leave the camp when I got married. I am a father of 5 children who live in Ramallah with their mother.

Jacobsen: As we are here today, you work in the occupied Palestinian territories (oPt). In particular, you are a Field Researcher in the Hebron District of oPt. It is the work for B’Tselem. What is B’Tselem? How did you find B’Tselem? What was the development of becoming the Field Researcher for the Hebron District?

Hashash: I joined B’Tselem in the year 2,000, the very day of the start of the second Intifada, B’Tselem thought that they might hire me for a short time, hoping the Intifada would stop in a week or so, but it has been 20 years now. I still work for them. My work in B’Tselem changed my life as it gave me the chance to meet and listen to thousands of victims who were from the poor Palestinians. Despite the sadness and anger, I have experienced; I would say that working for Human Rights was interesting and rewarding, unlike other jobs.

Jacobsen: What is the real history of the Palestinians in the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem?

Hashash: The history of the Palestinian territories, West Bank (including East Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip refer to the early fifties of the last century, when the West Bank including East Jerusalem was annexed to the kingdom of Jordan and when Gaza was annexed to Egypt. In 1967, these territories were occupied by Israel in the 1967 war. Israel immediately annexed Jerusalem and declared the united Jerusalem (East and West) as its capital.

Jacobsen: What is the emotional and physical toll on refugees? What is the same toll on their children during critical moments of development?

Hashash: The Palestinian refugees’ issues for me are the core of the struggle. Without solving it, the struggle will continue. In 1948, 60,000 Palestinians were forced to leave their homes in Palestine and took refuge in West Bank, Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan. They settled in refugee camps and most of them still, including my family. Life in camps has never been stable and comfortable and refugees felt it was temporary till 1967 when many of them lost hope and when hundreds of thousands of them fled to Jordan and became refugees for the second time in new refugee camps. The number of refugees increased by birth and statistics tell about more than six million Palestinians living abroad around the world. Most refugees still stick to their right of return and Israel and the other hosting countries did nothing to change their lives and kept them in miserable refugee camps much worse than the camp where my family still live (Fawwar refugee camp), where 12,000 people live in an area of one square kilometre in overcrowded houses and with a high rate of unemployment. In general, refugees were excluded from development in the hosting countries, especially in Lebanon.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Musa.

Some Background Resources on Musa

B’Tselem [btselem]. (2016, July 31). Inhuman conditions for Palestinian workers entering Israel: Checkpoint 300, June 2016. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi-XXYmIm_c.

Benton, S. (2014, February 22). Palestinians unite to demand ‘Open Shuhada Street’. Retrieved from www.jfjfp.com/palestinians-unite-to-demand-open-shuhada-street/.

Dudai, R. (2001, June). NO WAY OUT: Medical Implications of Israel’s Siege Policy. Retrieved from www.derechos.org/human-rights/mena/doc/nowayout.html.

Dudai, R. (2001, March). TACIT CONSENT: Israeli Policy on Law Enforcement toward Settlers in the Occupied Territories. Retrieved from https://www.btselem.org/sites/default/files/publications/200103_tacit_consent_eng.pdf.

Hashash, M.A. (2014, August 15). An Open Letter to His Colleagues at B’Tselem from the Most Decent, Honorable, Good, Humble Person I Have Had the Honor to Know: Musa AbuHashash of Fawwar Camp, Hebron. Retrieved from www.normanfinkelstein.com/2014/08/15/an-open-letter-to-his-colleagues-at-btselem-from-the-most-decent-honorable-good-humble-person-i-have-had-the-honor-to-know-musa-abuhashash-of-fawwar-camp-hebron/.

Hass, A. (2016, August 21). One Killed and Dozens Wounded at a Palestinian Refugee Camp, All for Two Pistols. Retrieved from https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-palestinian-killed-dozens-wounded-all-for-two-pistols-1.5427113.

Kate. (2016, August 22). Amid mass hunger strike, UN deplores number of Palestinian detainees, now at an eight-year high. Retrieved from https://mondoweiss.net/2016/08/deplores-palestinian-detainees/.

Levy, G. & Levac, A. (2013, March 2). What Killed Arafat Jaradat?. Retrieved from https://www.haaretz.com/.premium-what-killed-arafat-jaradat-1.5232055.

Mutar, H. (2014, February 21). Palestinians demand Shuhada St. reopened after 20 years. Retrieved from https://www.972mag.com/palestinians-demand-shuhada-st-reopened-after-20-years/.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Terry 1 – The Heart and Mind of a Secular Jewish Life

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/03/12

Terry Waslow, M.B.A. Executive Director is the Executive Director (former Board Chair) of the Congress of Secular Jewish Organizations and a Board Member of the International Institute for Secular Humanistic Judaism. Terry’s Master’s degree in Business Administration is focused on Nonprofits, while her undergraduate degree is in Human Services/Counseling.  She has worked for over 25 years with individuals and families impacted by physical, intellectual and/or economic challenges to build fully inclusive communities.

Here we talk about the heart and mind of secular Judaism, and the Congress of Secular Jewish Organizations.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: As the Executive Director of the Congress of Secular Jewish Organizations, and even before, you work with individuals and families of the secular Jewish community. So, you know it. You know the people, intimately. What is the heart of secular Judaism?

Terry Waslow: I like to think of it as the heart of Jewishness, distinguishing it from the religious rituals and theistic doctrine of Judaism. At the heart is our identity as a people with a culture and history that binds us as a family. Jews have lived in just about every country in the world and have adapted to and adopted elements of the local culture. Yet Jews have always identified as a unique people separate from the main culture that surrounds them wherever they reside. It is incorporating a global and particular view simultaneously: identifying as a separate community within a country and yet assimilating aspects of the locale. You find this in every aspect that defines a culture, from food, language, music and other aspects of everyday life. As an example, all Jews celebrate the holiday known as Passover. We may say the name differently based on the Jewish language that is the tradition of our particular family; pesach (Hebrew), peysekh (Yiddish), pesah (Ladino), and we may have different foods on our seder table. However, we will all eat matzo and we will all celebrate freedom. This is our Jewish family as both universal and unique.

The other major part of the heart of Jewishness is our strong commitment to Tikkun Olam, repairing the world. Secular Jews have historically and continue to be extremely active in progressive social movements. Some identify Jewishly, such as the many groups working on issues regarding hunger, environmental issues, refugee resettlement and any number of other social justice issues. You also find a large proportion of Jews belonging to secular progressive organizations. In the recent past Jews were at the forefront of the labour movement, helping to create safe working conditions, weekends and child labour standards. Tikkun Olam is what keeps us involved and working to constantly improve conditions not just for Jews but for the world. Here we have the particular working for global betterment.

We have a concept, l’dor v’dor, literally from generation to generation. It is our responsibility to pass on our Jewish traditions to each succeeding generation. As secular Jews, we take this responsibility very seriously as we have created schools and community groups and family traditions that teach the essence of secular Jewishness.

Jacobsen: What is the mind of secular Judaism?

Waslow: Judaism focuses on books and laws and the constant questioning and studying to increase our knowledge. This comes from a religious tradition. As secular Jews, we also see our Jewishness tied to lifelong learning. We have secular supplementary Jewish schools for our children and adult study groups. We prize education and delving into the laws and traditions to better understand the relevance for our lives today.

Clearly, as secular Jews, we do not understand our traditions and history as the word and works of god. However, we do see the value in understanding what these words are and what the teachings can tell us about our history and how to live our lives. I’ll use the holiday of pesach again as an example. Secular Jews definitely do not believe that Moses parted the sea or god smote the first born Egyptians. However, we celebrate freedom and we understand the idea that no one is free unless everyone is free. We honour the traditions of understanding the suffering of slavery and acknowledge the cost to the slave holder during the righteous fight for freedom. The Seder, the traditional holiday meal honours the idea of questioning and spells out the various types of learners. Even as this holiday reaches to the depths of our hearts we are challenged to expand our knowledge and enhance our mind as we repeat these traditions year after year, generation to generation.

Most important is that we realize that the heart and mind work together. Our love of our culture and heritage goes hand in hand with our learning about our history and traditions. I mentioned Tikkun Olam earlier and it is just one example of how concepts and learning (the mind) can be meaningless without the care and actions (the heart) that contribute to the well-being of all people. The concept of repairing the world is empty if we do not struggle to ensure the rights of all living beings. Our survival depends on it.

Jacobsen: How do these, the heart and the mind of secular Judaism, define the ordinary lives of followers of secular Jews within the remit of the Congress of Secular Jewish Organizations?

Waslow: There is no question that for those of us engaged in the activities of the Congress of Secular Jewish Organizations our identity is infused with our connection to our Jewish heritage. Our members function outside the traditional religious framework and develop schools and study groups and traditions that lead us towards understanding our people’s past and enriching our present Jewish lives. Our philosophy as an organization is to stress the cultural, historical and ethical aspects of our Jewishness in an effort to create an identity that is relevant to contemporary life that is committed to justice, peace and community responsibility. Through educational, cultural, and social activities we strive to instill in our members an ever-deepening sense of Jewish identity and pride in being Jewish.

Gerry Revzin, the first Executive Director of CSJO said it very well; “The pluralistic nature of our movement gives us a unique opportunity for creativity. We come together from all walks of life with a single purpose, to spread our message of secular humanistic Jewish life to those unaffiliated Jews who cannot accept the philosophy of the established Jewish community, but who don’t know what we offer. Herein lies our greatest challenge: the creation and development of new groups, schools, clubs in all parts of the United States and Canada and the world, where children and adults can explore the meaning and joys of their Jewish peoplehood, their ethnic identity; where Jewish interests and human concerns do not conflict; where thoughtful, even critical approaches to Jewish issues are welcomed; where holidays and traditions are observed with understanding, with creativity – out of choice, not obligation.”

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Terry.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Interview with Dr. Peter Singer – Ira W. DeCamp Professor of Bioethics, Princeton University & Laureate Professor, Centre for Applied Philosophy and Public Ethics, University of Melbourne

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/03/04

With long-awaited and great pleasure, I am introducing or bringing one of the most well-known and controversial ethicists (and atheists) in the (current) modern world, Professor Peter Singer, to Canadian Atheist. Singer is the Ira W. DeCamp Professor of Bioethics in the University Center for Human Values at Princeton University & Laureate Professor at the University of Melbourne, in the School of Historical and Philosophical Studies. He has been termed the “world’s most influential living philosopher” by some journalists. His work dealing with the ethics of the human treatment of animals has been credited with the foundations of the modern animal rights movement. His writing assisted in the development of Effective Altruism. He has made a controversial critique of the sanctity of life ethics in bioethics. He co-founded Animals Australia, formerly the Australian Federation of Animal Societies. Australia’s “largest and most effective animal organization.” He founded The Life You Can Save (see interview for ebook and audiobook options for a book by the same name as the organization). Other important writings include his 1972 essay “Famine, Affluence, and Morality” and books entitled The Life You Can Save (2009) and The Most Good You Can Do (2015). He has done a TED talk entitled “The why and how of effective altruism” garnering nearly 2,000,000 views.

Here we talk about Effective Altruism and The Life You Can Save.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What is the development of the formal ethical system by you? How has this evolved over time into Effective Altruism?

Singer: My ethical system is utilitarianism: the right act is the one that will lead to the best consequences, for all affected. Utilitarianism leads to Effective Altruism, because EA is about doing the most good we can, and using reason and evidence to find out what choices will do the most good — choices like donating to the most effective charities and also your choice of career. But you don’t have to be a utilitarian to be an EA.

Jacobsen: Who do you consider the most significant intellectual precursors to the development of Effective Altruism? Who are some lesser-known names who deserve due credit for their contributions to this ethical system?

Singer: As I have said, utilitarian thinking is a kind of precursor to EA, so the founders of utilitarianism can be seen as precursors of EA — Jeremy Bentham, John Stuart Mill, and Henry Sidgwick, in particular. But with regard to the birth of EA itself, around 2008 and in the following years, young philosophy students like Toby Ord and Will MacAskill played a crucial role.

Jacobsen: What do you consider the most significant and powerful argument in favour of Effective Altruism?

Singer: It’s the simple idea of getting value for your money, or your time. We all want to do that when buying something for ourselves. Imagine impulsively buying a new laptop, and paying twice as much as your friend — who did some online research before deciding what to buy — paid for hers, and ending up with a laptop that isn’t even as good as hers! Wouldn’t you feel stupid? But that’s exactly what people do when they impulsively give to a charity that has an appealing picture of a child on its website. A little research could often show you that some charities do not just twice as much good per dollar spent as others, but 10 or 100 times as much good.

Jacobsen: What do you consider the most significant and powerful argument against Effective Altruism?

Singer: EA research points to the interventions that do measurable good, and this tends to mean that it encourages people to donate to charities that save lives cheaply, say by distributing bednets against malaria, or that restore sight in people with cataracts, or eliminate internal parasites. It’s much harder to measure bigger, long-term interventions, like attempts to eliminate agricultural subsidies in rich nations that hurt smallholder farmers in poor countries, because the subsidised crops undercut their ability to earn income on the global market. 

Jacobsen: What have been the most controversial positions following from the ethics of Effective Altruism for you? How has the general public reacted to them? How have the community of ethicists reacted to them? What do you consider the appropriate responses to said reactions from both the general public and the community of ethicists, professional moral theorists?

Singer: In some circles, it’s controversial to say that we should not donate to art museums or opera houses, because we can do so much more good by donating to charities helping people in extreme poverty in low-income countries. Most ethicists agree with that, but not people involved in the arts.

The most appropriate response is, in my view, just to state the obvious: for the cost of, say, a $500 million renovation of the main concert hall at the Lincoln Center in New York, it would have been possible to restore sight, or prevent blindness, in 5 million people. What’s more important? Giving wealthy concert-lovers a nicer venue, or enabling 5 million people, in countries where there is no support for people with disabilities, to see?

Jacobsen: What do you consider the most significant derivative from Effective Altruism?

Singer: Substantial amounts of money — billions of dollars — flowing to organizations that do a lot of good with it. 

Jacobsen: You are an atheist. How does this build into the system of Effective Altruism?

Singer: EA fits well with atheism because it’s not about obeying moral rules handed down by a divine being, nor about following sacred texts, or religious leaders. It encourages us to focus on what we all value for ourselves and those we care about — reducing pain and suffering, increasing happiness, giving people more fulfilling lives — and to recognize that just as these things are important for us, they are important for everyone else capable of experiencing them — and not only humans, but all sentient beings.

On the other hand, you don’t have to be an atheist to be an EA. In fact, Christians who believe that the gospels are true accounts of what Jesus said should all be EAs, because he told them, in many different passages, to help the poor. It’s surprising, really, how many rich Christians there are who just ignore all of that.

Jacobsen: Is traditional religion and fundamentalist religion a net negative or a net positive in this ethical system?

Singer: That’s a very big question, and not easy to answer. The major religions do emphasize obligations to give to the poor, and that’s good. But they do lots of other things that are bad — the terrorism perpetrated by some Islamic fundamentalists is the most obvious example, but opposing contraception, abortion, same-sex relationships, and medical aid in dying are other examples. 

Jacobsen: You debated on the purported resurrection of a supposed divine figure called Yeshua ben Josef or Jesus Christ. What place do supernatural, metaphysical, and naturalistic claims have in Ethical Altruism? Most atheists would probably dismiss the first, might consider the second, and would place much emphasis on the third category.

Singer: I think EAs would agree with the atheists you describe, except perhaps that as many of them are interested in philosophy, they would spend more time discussing metaphysics than non-philosophers might do.

Jacobsen: Any upcoming exciting projects, recommended authors/organizations/speakers?

Singer: I’ve recently completed a fully revised and updated 10th-anniversary edition of my book The Life You Can Save, and I’m delighted to tell all your followers that they can download a completely FREE eBook or audiobook from www.thelifeyoucansave.org. Print copies can be bought from online booksellers or your local bookstore.

Jacobsen: Any final feelings or thoughts in conclusion based on this long-awaited interview?

Singer: Sorry I kept you waiting so long! My final thought is: if you agree with me, please make it practical! Check out www.thelifeyoucansave.org and see what you can do.

Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Professor Singer.

Singer: Thanks and all the best to you.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Bwambale Musubaho Robert Discusses Humanism and Schooling in Uganda

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/02/29

Bwambale Musubaho Robert is the School Director of the Kasese Humanist School (Rukoki/Muhokya/Kahendero). Here we talk about his life, views, and work.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: How do Humanists get stereotyped in primary and second schools?

Robert Bwambale: People think humanists are devilish, satanic, devil worshipper, ritualistic, non-believers, worshippers of science, Illuminati, homosexuals and are going to hell and perish in the fires.

Jacobsen: Following from the previous question, how do the pupils get impacted by this stereotyping?

Bwambale: It all takes enlightenment to debunk the lies or misconceptions. We encourage our students to learn more about humanism and what it actually means, teach them humanist values, ethics and the moral code and point out famous secular minds both living and past ones.

Of course, the stereotyping is a bad blow to our initiatives but since they are all lies and ignorant statements made by our enemies we encourage the pupils to dispel and ignore them and be in a position to defend Humanism or Atheism in that regard as per their understanding.

Jacobsen: When it comes to funding in Uganda, do the religious nursery, primary, and secondary schools get preferential treatment by the government?

Bwambale: Yes, most schools in Uganda are religiously funded or having an attachment to a particular religion. We have government-aided schools which are helped by the government and these get enormous funding ranging from classroom constructions, essential textbooks, paying staff salaries, school furniture, latrine constructions to mention but a few.

Jacobsen: There is a larger context surrounding any educational system for the young. When the children go home, and if they have a Humanist education, obviously, the parents have made a conscious choice for the future of their children, in spite of the potential backlash from their community. Why do parents make this choice? What do they or the kids say to you?

Bwambale: Some parents are knowledgeable especially those who understand better the waves between science and religion, such as who question religion would feel safer having their kids educate through our schools.

The agnostic parents too would enjoy educating with us.

Those other parents who look at a school as a place for knowledge and not a preaching ground would mindless about what goes on, after all, they know that what we offer is knowledge. 

Most parents give us children after seeing the variety of what we can offer ranging from the curriculum subjects, humanist studies, computer knowledge and vocational skills subjects. Our strong commitment to promoting science is another good attraction for why parents love our school.

The generosity and compassionate nature of our school and its exposure to the international community also put us at an added advantage. Our parents need a helping hand to give them a boost.

Some parents comfort and encourage me not to listen to the lies or smears against my campaigns.

Some school children do report to me some pastors who say bad words against our schools but all I say to them is that the pastors, too, are promoting their businesses by encouraging more people to come to churches so that they can reap big in the baskets at each end of service, so it’s a win-win game.

Some kids have ever told me that each time I take a photograph, I take them to witch doctors to attract fortunes and favours, but I tell my children at the school that this is part of ignorant statements religious fanatics continue to make that are baseless for am against all forms of superstitions and beliefs in magic.

Jacobsen: This is something not asked much, but as something of advice for other Humanist school headmasters and teachers. When it comes to the parents in a religious schooling context, what seems to work in assuaging fears of Humanism and schools devoted to its educational endeavours?

Bwambale: Am assuring parents who educate in religious schools not to fear bringing their children to humanist schools because our schools are centers for knowledge which an average student is entitled to attain, our schools are the best in the present setting as the country cherishes globalization, democracy, human rights and the need for a fair and just world.

The world right now needs no segregation, discrimination, hate or divisions. A school is in no way a preaching place or a worship center but a place that offers knowledge.

Those serving in humanist schools especially the staff and school managers, should be able to defend Science, Logic and reason and enlighten the masses about the goodness of rational living.

Jacobsen: Following from the previous question, what tends to be the sequence of events in the reduction of stereotyping and fear of Humanist schools for parents of prospective pupils?

Bwambale:  Sensitization and awareness about humanism campaigns on radios, home visits and outreach missions.

Holding debates on science and religion

Encouraging critical thinking to students and parents of the school

Educating parents of the school about what it means to be a humanist and his or her mode of life.

Jacobsen: Also, how are cost comparisons now? Does Kasese acquire more governmental or any government funding comparable to the local religious schools?

Bwambale:  There no feasible government funding to the Kasese Humanist School, Local religious schools are however helped big in some way.

Jacobsen: What the demographics of pupils and staff now?

Bwambale: Rukoki School – Primary section = 214 pupils

Staff = 14

Rukoki School – Secondary section = 54 students

Staff = 12

Bizoha School – Muhokya = 280 pupils

Staff = 12

Kahendero Humanist School = 205 pupils

Staff = 10

Jacobsen: What are some of the positive outcomes from its educational endeavours?

Bwambale: Some of our graduates are trained teachers, doctors, engineers, nurses while others are farmers, carpenters, drivers to mention but a few.

Jacobsen: What are the hoped-for outcomes for 2020/2021?

Bwambale: We are optimistic our candidates will pass with flying colours in their terminal exams.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Robert.

Bwambale: Welcome.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Interview with Immoh Obot on Losing Faith

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/02/29

Immoh Obot is a certified fire officer. He is also a computer programmer and a freelance creative writer. Here we talk about his story, his life.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What is family and cultural background? Some of the relevant details to provide a rounded perspective on you.

Immoh: I was born in a small village in Southern Nigeria in 1978. My first spoken language was the Ibibio tongue. My parents were Orthodox Christians and so was every one of my five elder siblings. As I became more conscious of my environment, I realized that there were lots of cultural constructs. Some of these constructs were age long traditions the church earnestly was striving to contain.

The idea of traditional belief systems, festivals, and masquerades and some other indigenous cultures were considered devilish and Christians were warned by their clergies and other leaders in their places of worship not to associate with them.

My family was a sweet place to be. I could remember my father and two elder sisters worked in Lagos, the capital of Nigeria at the time. Papa visited us back home as often as he was on vacation. In the house there were several primary, secondary school and religious literatures, one of them was My Book of Bible Stories from which my elder brother read and interpreted to me in my indigenous language especially when I troubled him to do so.

Other things made life in the village and family quite interesting. The traditional evening folklores, riddles and games, especially whenever there was the glittering full moon. Stories were often told in the evenings after the day’s last meal, it was considered a mild taboo to engage in story telling during day time. Of course, only lazy bones who wouldn’t go to the farms or school could afford the leisure of day time stories. These tales were usually intertwined with moral lessons, and I love them a lot. One of the tales was a legend – the couple in the moon. I made up my mind then I was going to learn how to read and understand English very quickly, so I could read up as many Bible stories and other literatures as I wanted. After all, my elder brother wasn’t always at my disposal to read to me as much as I would love to.

Most kids who grew up with me in the village had better eyes than I did. Many of them talked about the picture of a couple in the full bright moon. They claimed the image was that of a man whose head was severed apart by the very axe head he was using to cut a dead tree limb in his farm on a Sunday. The myth had it that the stubborn couple had gone to their farm on a Sabbath, i.e., on a Sunday, which is observed in my community as the day of rest, to fetch fire wood when the misfortune befell the male spouse. The axe head broke off its handle while he was cutting and burst his head in pieces. The accident was permitted by God and he (God) subsequently placed the stubborn couples’ picture in the moon to serve as a deterrent to all who disobeyed his holy laws, especially violating the holy day of rest. Of course, the kids were merely repeating a myth the elders peddled. Whoever composed this tale, we never knew, yet its influence was strong as the farms were deserted by believers and heathens on Sundays. Only churches thrived on our supposed Sabbaths.

In my personal struggle to convince myself of the ill-fated moon couple, I tried so often to see this picture but all my vision could capture was some formless cloudlike patches on the big bright yellow ball that sometimes hung in our night sky. Well, I had to concede to what the grownups and majority of my mates saw. They were too numerous to be wrong about the picture of the stubborn man in the moon. All these happened while I could barely read and write, I was probably 4 or 5 years old then. I remembered I was eager to get enrolled in school but I couldn’t as my right hand placed over my head couldn’t touch my left ear. That meant I wasn’t old enough to start elementary 1 with slate and chalk. I had to wait a little more, albeit very impatiently.

Jacobsen: What were some pivotal moments in early life critical to the development of critical capacities and the ability to think rationally and scientifically about the claims of adults who may not know or who may not have the best interests of the youth in mind, at the time?

Immoh: My early life was basically a flow along the tide. I believed what my people believed. However, there were a few things that I sometimes skeptically mused about: the teaching that an almighty God was going to someday punish Satan and some evil people, including the good ones who fell short of some few Bible injunctions, in hell. The teaching that Jesus would return ‘soon’ and, of course, the man with a broken head whose picture was pasted in the moon for all to see. I did feel there were more to be learnt about these popular beliefs and notions. Sometimes, I was too scared to keep my doubtful thoughts. At other times, it was simply the life and pleasure of childhood that matters. Life went on just normal until I began learning to read and write.

By the time I was enrolled in school, I would hear more stories from my parents and teachers even during day time. Stories were permitted in school once it was its time. While I relished these narratives of the Bible stories and other stories I heard at home, in school and church, I was quite uncomfortable with the tale of the couple in the moon.

Still on things that pushed my deep thinking, I recall feeling so uneasy about the Noah’s Ark story where even babies outside the ark were not spared from death by an overwhelming flood from God. It really scared me then that as a child I could suffer such a disaster from an all knowing being. I sometimes really felt bad about it. I was also unsettled by the fact that so many good people in the Bible stories read to me were often found wanting in one way or the other by the same God they loved and served so dearly. As a way of consoling myself, I sometimes agree that it wasn’t God’s fault after all. If they were upright at all times, he (God) wouldn’t inflict pains on them; and, if I lived a perfectly upright life, I sure won’t suffer the fate of those Bible figures.

Whereas my whole community were predominantly Christians and watched by God, people still hurt others a lot. Some adults could still take what never belonged to them. Even some good God lovers in my community still suffered loss of loved ones, illness and other ill fortunes that really shouldn’t befall children of God. It seemed then to me that it really mattered little or nothing what people believed. But again, I had to wait till I grew older and could know better.

Still, I had several other concerns. Worried, I was, about the fact that some of my age mates could still get quite naughty and troublesome right after walking out of church, Sunday School, Catechism or a moral classes, it seemed I was about the only one who gave these stories and prayers some serious attention. Why didn’t my friends care much once the moral conditioning sessions were over? Perhaps I was too scared? Again, I resolved back then not to mind my age group but to follow the rules in the Bible and school so strictly more than all the good people I’ve heard about in the Bible, but then my human nature often got in my way, I also did get naughty and sometimes kept long malice in spite of my firm resolve not to. All the same, I was going to be a very righteous man when I grow up; I would read up every bit of the word of God and pray so hard till nothing bad or evil could be found in me and then I wouldn’t suffer any ill fate. I would assure myself.

Looking back today, I really do think those ‘uncomfortable tales’ from the Bible and the legend of the ill-fated couple in the moon somehow reinforced my resolve to read the Bible and the desire to know more about our world. The troubles within my community in spite of the daily devotions also primed my mind to desire more knowledge on why things were that way. The corresponding action in my growing years and adult life led me to some long personal studies on the Bible and Science and that I can say led me to the discoveries that turned me around from a faith-based life to a fact based life. Those childhood resolutions to read about our world and humanity would eventually demystify so many myths and convinced me to give more attention to reason rather than sheer belief and superstition.

It is important to point out that the school in my village was more or less an extension of the church. Upon my enrollment into elementary 1, I found out morning assembly was a mandatory morning prayers session. Afternoon assemblies were irregular. In any case, each class said closing prayers or sang a doxology before dismissal. Some of our head teachers and class teachers often spoke condescendingly of our cultures and traditional belief system. They warned us to attend churches and to stay away or even report boys who don the masquerades. Ironically, they seem to dread stuff like witchcraft, evil spirits, and other traditional phenomena. But then my elder brother was a science student and when I questioned him about our natural world, he gave me some insights and science perspectives. This also made me resolve to study sciences; that way I would be able to understand the Bible all the more and have a well-rounded knowledge of God and the Universe I thought he created.

Jacobsen: Who were important authors or public figures as your views on the world matured?

Immoh: From the age of 6 or so, I spent more of my life in Lagos state, a very large and busy urban center compared to my first community. Here my life continued with my innate quest to understand the world. I read literatures. While I paid rapt attention to science documentaries on TV, I also really admired some popular televangelist I often watched on television or listened to on radio.

On books: religious books to start with, the Bible was and perhaps remains one of my most read books. Once I knew how to read, I took it as a point of duty to read it cover-to-cover. By the time I’d read it through and through for more than ten times, beside random readings and studies, I began seeing the flaws in its authorship, logic and claims. But I needed to be sure of my discoveries, so set out to learn a bit more on how the Bible was written.
I read many other theological works from my pastors’ library and took several correspondence Bible courses.

I read God’s General. I read Charles G.Finney’s, E.M. Bounds’, Rick Joyner’setc

English literatures: Chinua Achebe, Wole Soyinka, Cyprian Ekwensi, Nguggi Wa Thiong’o, Rosemary H. Uwemedimo, Kola Onadipe,Nkem Nwankwo, T.M. Aluko, John Pepper Clark, Ayi kwei Arma etc

Politics: Awolowo’s, Azikiwe’s, Ray Ekpu’s,Nkurima’s,

Science literatures: A.F.Abbott, P.N.Okeke, Nelkon and Parker, O.Y Ababio, etc.

Others: Stephen Hawking, Robert Ingersoll, Sam Harris, Brian Tracy, John Grisham, Jeffrey Archer, etc to mention but few.

Like I mentioned earlier, the public figures I looked up to were more of the popular pastors in Nigeria. They came across to me as very perfect and honest people who were speaking nothing but the truth. But as my investigation deepens and my studies broadened, I found so many glaring flaws and even deliberate deceptions in some of the things some of these men of faith said and tenaciously held on to and their hitherto strong influences on my person began diminishing rapidly

Secular authors and advocate like Achebe, Soyinka, Fela Kuti etc began making more meanings in their book, public positions and advocacies than the clergies and their sermons. I also found a number of very interesting free thinkers on line who were quite spot on in their stance for humanism and free thinking.

Jacobsen: What have been important organizations for the development of networks of Humanist activism in Africa now?

Immoh: Honestly I’ll say the world wide web, and social media. Top organizations like Humanist Association of Nigeria, West African Humanist Network, etc., are also great factors in the development of network for humanist activism in Africa and their effort is seriously aided by the internet. 

Jacobsen: Who have been leading the charge – women and then men?

Immoh: I’m relatively new in the fold of Humanist associations, so I wouldn’t know so many names here, but I think the likes of Professor Wole Soyinka and Dr. Leo Igwe have definitely made some indelible marks.

Jacobsen: What will be significant actions to solve the problems of fundamentalist religion and superstition in Africa?

Immoh: Deeper and holistic education. More critical thinking exercises in our primary, secondary and higher institution curriculums.

More humanist based organizations. More science institutes and science research. All these leading to more activism for reason based living over superstitious ones will sure go a long way.

Jacobsen: What organizations are you involved in now? What is your role – or are your roles – there now?

Immoh: There are a number of them. At the moment, I’m more involved with Humanist Association of Nigeria (HAN) and presently one of the interim officers in the Lagos Chapter.

I run other small groups on social media, e.g. Beyond Religion, which is more of a meeting point for people to think, question, and investigate some of our beliefs, myths, and superstitions.

I earnestly desire to find or set up groups that can proffer science based solutions to our socio economic challenges in small and large scales. Projects in rural areas that can bring people to understand the ‘miracle’ and power of science and critical reasoning over mere ancient beliefs, doctrines, and dogmas.

Jacobsen: How can the international Humanist community help the local African Humanist communities and organizations take charge of their lives?

Immoh: The international humanist community needs to aid Africans to look inwards and know their history very well. So many Africans barely know that there were (and still are, though few) several humanist cultures on the continent. Many Africans see Humanist call for an egalitarian society as strange and foreign; whereas, these values have been there and only need to be expanded, so the people may be at peace with it. For instance, I personally don’t fancy a tattoo. I have none and have absolutely no problem with those who cherish it. People should be free if they want to tattoo their skin, but there are many African homes who abhor their children or adults wearing tattoos. They often think it’s a borrowed culture and a taboo. They forget or are completely ignorant that these artificial skin markings are as old as Africa itself.

My very brief studies of African histories reveal several things, including a culture of civilization and egalitarianism. Of course, this is not to say that Africa had it all from the onset rather it goes to show that were the African-self-developmental process allowed to grow without brute intrusion and subsequent muscling by the colonialists the continent would have evolved more naturally and definitely developed more rapidly.

The international humanist community needs to encourage humanist hubs on African soil. They should seek to host and hold more international humanist conferences right here in Africa.

The Humanist international community should seek to establish strong rapport with the government of African countries to educate the citizenry on the ethos of humanism. Same should be done through the United Nations.

The international humanist community should aid critical reasoning projects in urban and rural African communities. This approach will further aid acceptability of humanist ideas and would in the long run bring about a large scale of enlightenment of its course as well as improve the lots of our humanity.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Immoh.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Interview with Dalton McCart – President, Missouri State University-Springfield Secular Student Alliance

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/02/19

Dalton McCart is the President of the Missouri State University-Springfield Secular Student Alliance. Here we talk about his story and work on secular activism.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What is family background, e.g., geography, culture, language, and religion or lack thereof?

Dalton McCart: My family background is from the American South/Midwest. I grew up in Southern Missouri to a white English speaking family who at large was rather poor. The main religious influences in my life were Pentecostal, Baptist, Lutheran, and one Wiccan grandmother.

Jacobsen: How did this influence personal background?

McCart: Growing up, my immediate family wasn’t very religious, but my extended family was severely so. I tried to become a better Christian in my youth which put me at odds with a lot of my personal beliefs and eventually I left it. This lead to a lot of hostility towards me and my parents, and ultimately the person I am is a direct result of the negative treatment I was given by the people who claimed to be loving and tolerant.

Jacobsen: When did secularism and freethought become more of a philosophical stance for you?

McCart: Early in my teens I experimented with various religious practices to see if something fit for me. After about 2 years, I came out explicitly as an atheist and since then secularism and humanism have been my guiding principle.

Jacobsen: Following from the previous question, did this change the characteristics and interactions with friends and family?

McCart: This changed my entire social and familial dynamic. I lost contact with the majority of my family and a good amount of my friends who rejected me for not following their beliefs. I learned to be more careful about who I let into my life, and spent a long time being angry and closed off because of this treatment.

Jacobsen: How is the secular and freethought community on the Missouri State University-Springfield campus?

McCart: We are still in the bible belt, that aside MSU as an organization has been very understanding and welcoming to our group and like-minded students. The student culture allows us to express ourselves without too much push back. The only other point that I have to say is that we are the only organization on our campus focused on secularism in schools and communities among the probably 30+ religious organizations.

Jacobsen: What are demographics and targeted objectives of the Missouri State University-Springfield Secular Student Alliance? Why those goals?

McCart: Our primary goal is to provide a community for secular students. We strive to give students a place to freely express themselves and engage in discourse on subjects of secularism to help work through their own stories. We are the family that many of us lost on our journey. Secondly, we focus on activism. We try to be involved in local and state communities and politics to help create a better society so that future secular people don’t go through the same struggle we have.

Jacobsen: Missouri State University-Springfield Secular Student Alliance won the December 2015 – “Outstanding Activism” from the Secular Student Alliance. What does this mean for the Missouri State University-Springfield Secular Student Alliance?

McCart: The award is an honoured acknowledgement from our parent organization. They support us incredibly well and we attempt to honour them for doing so. This award tells us that we are making an impact in the lives of students and community members which is what SSA wants us to be doing.

Jacobsen: As the President, what tasks and responsibilities come with the position?

McCart: The job descriptions for our organization tend to get blurred. We help each other out with duties as needed. Ultimately my job as President is to inspire and guide my students. I look at this position as the position of leadership that it is, which means my main goal is to take care of the people in our community, whether or not they are members, and to act in a way that represents the good people they are. My day to day duties are as mundane as any officers. I handle a majority of the planning and execution of all of our meetings and events and most of the networking we do on and off-campus, but I receive tremendous help from my team of dedicated officers and even regular members.

Jacobsen: What are the ways in which people can become involved with the Missouri State University-Springfield Secular Student Alliance? How can other groups or organizations support and bolster the capacities of the Missouri State University-Springfield Secular Student Alliance?

McCart: Anyone who is interested can feel free to contact us at ssa@missouristate.edu or on our Facebook page facebook.com/msufreethought. We are open to membership from students and community members alike.

Jacobsen: What are the controversies involving issues for secularists and humanists on campus and the surrounding area? How does this influence the discussions and activities of the group?

McCart: The main controversies we deal with on campus is the continued struggle to increase awareness about secular students and our values. Trying to convince a majority religion in an area that the people they were told from childhood are evil are not is a struggle. We do receive pushback for some of what we do, but I believe most of that comes from individuals not campus groups. In the surrounding area it is a constant battle to keep religious founded legislation from taking hold. Missouri has terrible laws allowing the discrimination of lgtbq+ individuals and women’s bodily rights which are a huge focus for us.

Jacobsen: What are the upcoming activities for the group? What do you see as the important things for the future of the organization, including passing the torch to the next leadership?

McCart: This semester we are co-sponsoring a debate between a Ph.D. in theology Dr. Kirschner and Dan Barker from the Freedom From Religion Foundation, bringing in Dr. Marty Klein to give a talk on sex and sexuality, and hosting a screening of Hail Satan? With the local Satanic Temple. These events will be listed on our Facebook page, and are free and open to the public.

Jacobsen: Who have been crucial mentors and supports for the organization?

McCart: In the time I have been here 2 names come to mind. Damon Bassett, our faculty adviser, and Dr. Suzanne Walker-Pacheco, a professor of anthropology have been instrumental in supporting us and helping us get involved with connections outside of campus and on-campus alike.

Jacobsen: Any final thoughts or feelings in conclusion?

McCart: I just want to emphasize that students are the future of this nation, and we need to be open and encouraging to all students to express themselves healthily so that when this generation starts to replace the politicians in office now they can help reinforce a better society for the generations to follow. Secularism isn’t about the abolishing of religion, but instead enforcing religious freedom for all which is often skewed to look like taking down the religious majority. This is only because the religious majority tends to legislate against religious freedom, but instead toward religious exclusion and the rise of their own agenda.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Dalton.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Takudzwa 26 – Helping Adolescents

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/02/18

Takudzwa Mazwienduna is the informal leader of Zimbabwean Secular Alliance and a member of the Humanist Society of Zimbabwe. This educational series will explore secularism in Zimbabwe from an organizational perspectiveand some more.

Here we talk about helping adolescents.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Teenagehood is a tough time of life. Lots of physical changes. A lot of new thoughts and feelings coming online, in more mature forms. It is a literal time of “Storm and Stress” or “Storm and Drive,” or Sturm und Drang. Just as a fun starter to this session, what are some of the colloquialisms in Zimbabwean culture for the transition from childhood into adolescence and then for adolescence itself?

Takudzwa Mazwienduna: That period of time is known as ujaha or umhandara which translates to young manhood or young womanhood.

Jacobsen: How do religions operate at this stage of life from the point of view of the parents and the general adult culture regarding their teenagers?

Mazwienduna: The default for most societies or families in Zimbabwe is that teenagers should be in Youth clubs at their churches. It’s rare to come across a Zimbabwean youth who is not in one of those. At the church I grew up in, they even had two buildings, one for the adults and another one for youths.

Jacobsen: From the point of view of the adolescents, how can they view the adult establishment (sorry, making it sound like a criminal syndicate) and the religious leaders in their communities in Zimbabwe?

Mazwienduna: The Zimbabwean youths usually supports the adult establishment mainly because those are their meal tickets. Even the ruling party has an army of Youths that are known for terrorizing people on their behalf in rural areas.

Jacobsen: What is the central claimed purpose of the religious leaders in Zimbabwe in inculcating their values in young Zimbabweans? How is this claim true? How is this claim false?

Mazwienduna: Religious leaders in Zimbabwe usually hold the most important social roles in most communities in Zimbabwe, they are believed to be the moral authority and they are guidance counsellors to the youths. They impart biased religious perspectives however and the most harmful aspect of this arrangement is the advice they give to teenage girls, encouraging them to be docile and subservient.

Jacobsen: How do the adult establishment and the religious establishment (only half-sorry this time) coordinate to bring about the religious personal identification in the youth to make the young the new representatives of the religions – whatever religion?

Mazwienduna: In most religious denominations, the youth clubs are designed to groom them for religious leadership, even I passed through these and aspired to excel at it like everyone else during that time in my life. They have merit-based systems in most of these youth clubs and excelling at them gains as much status and dignity in Zimbabwean society, just as much as graduating from university would.

Jacobsen: What are the stories of teenagers coming to the Humanist Society of Zimbabwe?

Mazwienduna: The Humanist Society of Zimbabwe hasn’t had teenagers joining particularly because it is extremely rare to find a teenage Atheist. The one member who joined when he was 18, however, was McArthur Mkwapatira. He is an exceptional young man who used to be in the junior parliament too, and he is in his early 20s and one of the founding members of the HSZ.

Jacobsen: How can, and do, you help them?

Mazwienduna: As we get more established, efforts will be made to reach out to that age group and support teenage Atheists wherever they could be. With the nature of religiosity in Zimbabwe, most of them are probably in the closet.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Takudzwa.

Mazwienduna: It’s always a pleasure Scott.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Faye 8 – Socrates and Hemlock: Punishment Versus Choice

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/02/14

Faye Girsh is the Founder and the Past President of the Hemlock Society of San Diego. She was the President of the National Hemlock Society (Defunct) and the World Federation of RTD Societies (Extant). Currently, she is on the Advisory Board of the Final Exit Network and the Euthanasia Research and Guidance Organization. Here we talk about the proverbial hemlock.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What are some of the common means by which people kill themselves in moments of desperation? 

Faye Girsh: Firearms are the most used in the U.S. Although, there is a 15% failure rate. I’m not sure about Canada where it’s harder to get a weapon. Hanging is used often, e.g., Robin Williams.

It is apparently hard to succeed if the windpipe is injured but the carotid arteries are intact. In India people, especially farmers, swallow fertilizer. It is unfortunate that these unreliable, often painful, lonely ways to die are used by desperate people. Jumping, from tall buildings or in front of trains, is a frequent means. This almost always works but traumatizes train engineers or bystanders.

Ingesting medications that are not necessarily lethal can make one severely ill, but rarely result in death. The inhalation of Helium was an easy and reliable method, but not since the gas was diluted with 20% air. Nitrogen and other inert gases do work, but good supervision is important.

Jacobsen: What are the most common means by which individuals commit suicide in a controlled, pre-planned setting in the form of a Rational Suicide?

Girsh: In Canada, now, a qualified patient can request either orally ingested medication or a lethal injection. The latter is chosen as the vast majority of the time. This method is also available to qualified patients in the Netherlands, Luxembourg, and Belgium. In the US, an organization, Final Exit Network, teaches eligible clients the use of the Nitrogen method which is quick, painless and certain.

It used to be that some organizations recommended ordering secobarbital (Seconal) or pentobarbital (Nembutal) from China, but these websites are no longer reliable and are often scams. It is not easy to die well.

Jacobsen: In your time at the Hemlock Society of San Diego in the past and in the World Federation of RTD Societies, what are some of the discussions around the future technologies utilized for the minimization of pain and suffering for individuals who wish for a Rational Suicide?

Girsh: An informal organization called NuTech, founded by Derek Humphry and Canadian John Hofsess, has been meeting for the past 15 years to discover and develop new technologies for self-deliverance. Currently, Philip Nitschke is the leader of the group which is open to doctors, engineers, divers, anyone with ideas. The Helim and Nitrogen methods emerged from the ideas of this group.

There is some interest in sodium nitrites but there is little data on this method. We all agree that the method should be quick, certain, painless, and easy to use without help. Many things are lethal but produce an unpleasant, uncertain, often grotesque death. We believe people should not die alone which precludes measures like jumping, shooting and hanging.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Faye.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Mubarak 7 – Et Tu? Two: How Bad Could Things Get?

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/02/13

Mubarak Bala is the President of the Humanist Association of Nigeria. We will be conducting this educational series to learn more about humanism and secularism within Nigeria. Humanists in Nigeria and some other African states have some of the toughest sensibilities built on real hardship unseen by much of the rest of the humanist movement. I like them, a lot. This makes their writing, often, cutting, direct, and no-nonsense with a sharp wit to boot. Here we talk about some more history of personal and professional punishment, imprisonment, even torture, based on the rejection of the supernaturalisms of the dominant cultures and communities, of Bala.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What was the reason for the punishment by the religious fundamentalists against you?

Mubarak Bala: I was mostly threatened in the hope I recant and convert, the punishment was largely medical, with false diagnosis; I was administered epileptic drugs even as I was not.

The other punishments meted were isolation, boycott, seizure of assets by parents, and disinheritance, in hope that the elements get me. Several times I had nothing, and no friends, but other times, a few loyal friends and relatives come to the rescue. 

The cultures are never tainted nor refined by the colonists here in the north. So, they are in their pristine forms, with all the accompanying misogyny and patriarchy, as well as elements of slavery and archaic punishments.

But I was lucky to be economically above the mob class, the middle class are mostly respected, as they have something to offer financially, which I did at most times, to be safe from those around me, of the lower socioeconomic class, which produces most of the mob.

Jacobsen: More on the state and punishment of nonbelievers. How did religion and state converge for the punishment of you?

Bala: The Kano government practices sharia, and when I left Kano, they announced that I have converted back, and that I have apologized for my blasphemy. The laws of the Federation are secular, and superior to the state’s laws, and as such, secular cities such as the capital, provided an escape.

The society mostly copies from the cultures of the Middle East and North Africa, and even though these cultures have long weaned off Islamism and are fighting it, in many fronts, the region here, makes sure no one wakes up, by tagging any progressive ideas as alien, western, satanic, bound for hell, and dangerous. 

The real emancipation came with the internet, for this landlocked region, with the highest number of out of school children, highest birthrate globally, and the highest poverty rate.

The internet, not only brought home the information catalyst; no, it also allowed for secularists and rationalists to come together, form a community, socialize, help each other, befriend and network, as well as safely debate without actually meeting people, or jeopardizing their location and privacy. 

Although, the big media locked us out; and the social media shuts down many of our accounts, based on the number of complaints over blasphemy and anonymity for those who could not really reveal their real identity. We endure, and forge ahead. 

Atheist, agnostic and humanist ideals are now normalized even if not accepted. Instead of threats of actual violence, over the years, all we now endure is hate speech and threats of imagined monsters supposedly after we die naturally. A lot has been done, and there is progress…

Jacobsen: What were the justifications for the punishment of a nationally leading humanist with some international renowned?

Bala: Honor, prestige, conservatism, puritanism, narrow mindedness, fear of imagined gods, lessons to be set so others would not tread such path of apostasy. 

In the end, they succeeded in only earning the cause more publicity, embarrassing themselves and rubbishing the system since they actually are corrupt, and also do such sins they caution against, sins they fear would be normalized, such as adultery and fornication, even as videos of their sexual escapades emerge online, with even little children. 

In the end, though, something good happened, even theists now tilt aware from the hitherto trendy fanaticism, jihadism and fundamentalism, online, on-air and even in town hall gatherings.

It is all a new phenomena, a new social revolution, overturning the age-old system on itself. Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter trends from northern Nigeria, is now awash with #MeToo like narratives, #NewIdeas as well as #SocialChange tags which most importantly, is led by young ladies, under 30, defiant and progressive. There is hope for the next generation. 

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Mubarak.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Faye 7 – The Big Countdown Clock: A Universal Chrono-Headcase

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/02/11

Faye Girsh is the Founder and the Past President of the Hemlock Society of San Diego. She was the President of the National Hemlock Society (Defunct) and the World Federation of RTD Societies (Extant). Currently, she is on the Advisory Board of the Final Exit Network and the Euthanasia Research and Guidance Organization. Here we talk about time, meaning, and wills.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: As a species, we appear driven a teensy bit mad by thinking about the passage of time. From hopes or assertions of an ever-after to considerations of an extended legacy in the memories of loved ones, we fret. 

I see this in the elders around me. I see this in myself. A sense of the impending – either far off at the ultimate ultimatum of life or some assignment due for a course. I think about the individuals coming forward with living wills. 

How far in advance of a typically expected death are wills produced by people? How is this will timing production different from a sudden or creeping illness with poor recovery prospects landing onto a person’s conscious life? I may be wrong, but I would assume a difference in the timelines.

Faye Girsh: In the event of the proverbial being hit by a truck, an advance directive is recommended for anyone over 18. No doubt our wishes would change if we had a lingering illness and pain and weren’t able to do the things we enjoy. In my retirement community, I am impressed (and surprised) at how people cling to life when they are dependent on caregiving, medication, and even a loss in cognitive functioning.

Sometimes younger people say they would not want “anything” if they were in a dependent situation. But once there people do change their minds. You can always change your document but it’s important to have one.

Jacobsen: Observationally, experientially, time seems intuitively hooked to a sense of the significance of things, of meaning, and gets all the more amplified with digital technology. Stuff that counts units of time. 

Sometimes to the accuracy of the radiative tick of a Caesium 133 atom – truly astonishing, almost miraculous. Is this ever remarked upon or written within the books, journals, or newsletters of the societies in which rational suicide, dying with dignity, and so on, are central premises of their vision and mission?

That is to say, is there lengthy conversation on a sense of time and its relation to a sense of meaning/significance in life?

Girsh: This may be above my pay grade. I don’t know any research on this point. Time is a variable that markedly changes depending on what’s happening during the passage of it.

Steve Jobs, in a speech before he died, expresses his gratitude to death. “Death is very likely the single best invention of life…It clears out the old to make way for the new.”

Time is the gift we take for granted. How we use is our legacy: what we accomplish, what we do for humanity, what we leave for our loved ones. As it gets shorter it does seem to pass more quickly.

Jacobsen: Following from the previous question, does this change the quality or reflective quality of the wills?

Girsh: As I speculated above, younger people are more careless about time and often ready to say “enough” if their quality of life is at all compromised. As we age, that time shrinks and we do everything possible to hang on to what’s left.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Faye.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Takudzwa 25 – Columns

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/02/08

Takudzwa Mazwienduna is the informal leader of Zimbabwean Secular Alliance and a member of the Humanist Society of Zimbabwe. This educational series will explore secularism in Zimbabwe from an organizational perspectiveand some more.

Here we talk about written and video productions.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What is the publication for Shingai Ndoro? What have been some of the themes and topics covered by him?

Takudzwa Mazwienduna: Shingai Ndoro’ s column is called Chiseling The Debris, and it is published in the country’s best selling Sunday newspaper; The Sunday Mail. It scrutinizes the accuracy of religious claims and attitudes, planting seeds of doubt into the religious establishment.

Jacobsen: What is the publication for Miriam Tose Majome? What have been some of the themes and topics covered by her?

Mazwienduna: Miriam Tose Majome contributes articles for Newsday, the biggest anti government newspaper in the country. The newspaper is always critical about the misgovernance in the country and it talks about the rule of law most of the time. Miriam writes about the constitutional importance of secularism in the same regard.

Jacobsen: How did Shingai and Miriam secure the columns in some of the largest publications in Zimbabwe?

Mazwienduna: They did so by pitching their ideas to the authorities in these publications. Miriam is a prominent lawyer in Harare while Shingai is a prominent member of the Harare business community, they both had the significant influence with the relevant authorities to land these columns.

Jacobsen: What have been the central contents developed – so far – for Prosper Mtandadzi via YouTube?

Mazwienduna: Prosper Mtandadzi has made a series of cartoons revisiting the Humanist foundation of precolonial culture. His content is usually aimed at reconstructing African values, and fostering a sense of progressive cultural pride to counter the acculturation that has made most Zimbabweans superficial Christians.

Jacobsen: Can you provide some of their resources for the audience here today, please?

Mazwienduna: Definitely, You can find Shingai’s content here: https://www.sundaymail.co.zw/tag/Shingai-Rukwata-Ndoro.

Miriam’s content here: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsday.co.zw/2019/06/our-growing-infatuation-with-first-ladies/amp/.

And Prosper’s content: https://youtu.be/rmFZ-j4U2hY.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Takudzwa.

Mazwienduna: It’s always a pleasure Scott.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Faye 6 – The Soot of Former Moral Authority: or, Smoke, and Dying the Deaths of a Thousand Crimes Made Public

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/02/06

Faye Girsh is the Founder and the Past President of the Hemlock Society of San Diego. She was the President of the National Hemlock Society (Defunct) and the World Federation of RTD Societies (Extant). Currently, she is on the Advisory Board of the Final Exit Network and the Euthanasia Research and Guidance Organization. Here we talk about the extensive and deep loss of moral authority.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: One of the main perceived moral authorities – and sometimes, rightly – have been hierarchical and patriarchal (supremely male-run, male-owned) institutions bound to assertions of transcendent, if not divine, powers of ethical judgment.

These continue to die with the onslaughts of modernity, not explicitly perceivable in the raw numbers but, observable in the rights afforded to women against the dictates of their divinely-ordained domineers, protections provided for children from robed predators, science applied to technology to ease life in ways only excused by former sacerdotalism, and… streaming television. 

How has the weakening of the moral authority of religious institutions permitted an opening for questions about individual choice in the most profound topic of human life, death, only equalled by its opposite, conscious life?

Faye Girsh: Wow, what a question!!! Surely the response is that with the increasing power of Humanism, in art, theology, music, literature, etc. the individual is more reliant on their own decisions and judgment. I am not sure it is the authoritarian structure that forms the opposition to assisted dying as much as tradition, unfounded fears, and the tendency to not change things. The U.S. is struggling with this much more than Canada which has taken so many progressive steps forward, and is moving rapidly, toward a rational system of assisted dying. Canada is not hidebound by the reactionary forces we have and is providing people with choices we may never get to in the U.S. By the way, I do think the ancients had doctors who did not allow them to suffer and took matters in their own hands. It is the amazing progression of modern medicine that has reinforced the ethic of Do Everything — Death is a Failure.

Jacobsen: What nuanced qualms around death have most waned in the blazing trails of individual freethought?

Girsh: The idea of an AfterLife has been a constraint to all kinds of behaviour, with the Big Court in the Sky deciding if you will burn in Hell for your Sins. Without this very successful form of social control humans have more freedom to make their own choices with consequences being governed by natural law. Now many are coerced into living by “loving” relatives and a medical system that sees death as defeat.

Right now in our country, we are trying to find a morality that should govern human behaviour even when man-made laws are being flouted. Many people feel it is consistent with their morality to determine the time and manner of their death. They are constrained only by lacking the means to do it.

Others still cling to the idea that they should not be in control of Life, that there is a cosmic order determining when and how we die. Those who reject ending their suffering often do so because they cling to the pleasures of living, or the difficulties of finding a peaceful death while others are still bound by the ideas of Sin and God and the Final Judgment.

Jacobsen: Some theologians, in the past, have, to their credit, emphasized individual conscience as the final arbiter in ethical decisions. How has this influenced the growth and development of theologies for dying with dignity religious groups, rational suicide faith-based organizations?

Girsh: Some supporters of the right to choose your own death have been respected theologians, albeit they are in the minority. One such person has been Episcopal Bishop John Shelby Spong who has openly supported self-determination and the futility of suffering. In a plea to the U.S. Congress, he stated, “I come to these conclusions as a Christian…My personal creed asserts that every person is sacred. I see the holiness of life enhanced, not diminished, by letting people have a say in how they choose to die….

Many of us want the moral and legal right to choose to die with our faculties intact, surrounded by those we love before we are reduced to breathing cadavers, with no human dignity attached to our final days…Life must not be identified with the extension of biological existence…..”

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Faye.

Girsh: Thanks, Scott.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Faye 5 – Do You Know What That’s Like?: To Not Exist, But to be Alive.

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/02/05

Faye Girsh is the Founder and the Past President of the Hemlock Society of San Diego. She was the President of the National Hemlock Society (Defunct) and the World Federation of RTD Societies (Extant). Currently, she is on the Advisory Board of the Final Exit Network and the Euthanasia Research and Guidance Organization. Here we talk about suffering and death.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Future generations, if they exist at all in a viable manner and with enough oxygen to think, may reflect with modest pity over the chief characteristic of the newest incarnation of the Technocratic Golden Age. To echo the remarks of late Glenn Gould, the Canadian pianist, about golden ages, there’s been quite a lot of them. We left off on the note of irrational reasons for suicide, in which Rational Suicide becomes interpreted, more properly, as Irrational Suicide or (Ir)Rational Suicide. When does suicide not make much sense to most people, most of the time?

Faye Girsh: When there is hope. For a cure, for better living conditions, for better relationships, for greater enjoyment of life. But it’s impossible to put ourselves into the minds of people who seem to feel their suffering is unbearable, permanent, and getting worse. We hate to see it in healthy people without visible or treatable causes of suffering.

Jacobsen: What mental health problems can feed into suicide as a public health issue rather than an end-of-life planned ceremony with proper ratiocination about it?

Girsh:  Loneliness, the expense of being old and sick, expansion of mobility and communication aids, easier access to good longterm care. Mental illness and concussion-related brain injury. Continuous, irrational wars.

Jacobsen: Some fear mass suicides or increases in suicides if euthanasia, dying with dignity, rational suicide, physician-assisted suicide, and so on, become legal and accepted throughout cultures. Does this hold empirical weight? What does science tell us – the statistics?

Girsh: Certainly, the rate of assisted dying in those countries that make it legal shows an annual increase. But that is not mass suicide, merely a choice between methods of dying. In the U.S. it is really hard to get help to die for most people and our suicide rate is soaring. If those people had more peaceful ways to end their lives — and some oversight and help — it would lower the high suicide rate of people using violent and uncertain means. I don’t think there is good scientific data on this issue. 

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Faye.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Takudzwa 24 – A New Spring

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/02/03

Takudzwa Mazwienduna is the informal leader of Zimbabwean Secular Alliance and a member of the Humanist Society of Zimbabwe. This educational series will explore secularism in Zimbabwe from an organizational perspectiveand some more.

Here we talk about project statuses and cultural updates.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Let’s talk more specifically about some ongoing events for 2020 in the Spring. What are some of the projects more fully developed or in progress?

Takudzwa Mazwienduna: The only projects so far have been efforts by members to raise awareness about secularism in national media and government platforms.

Jacobsen: What ones are the closest to completion?

Mazwienduna: It’s hard to determine what would signal the completion of these campaigns, but as long as there are Secular concerns, HSZ members are going to continue fighting the good fight.

Jacobsen: What ones, with some more time, appear as if they will take several years to unfold?

Mazwienduna: Some members like Shingai Ndoro and Miriam Tose Majome have secured weekly newspapers columns in the biggest national newspapers while other like Prosper Mtandadzi have started making animations on YouTube. These projects might go on for years.

Jacobsen: What are the current shortfalls in institutional resources for the Humanist Society of Zimbabwe?

Mazwienduna: The only limitation is financial resources. That has led to the main initiatives being mostly individual efforts because attempts to mobilize the whole society have been futile for financial reasons.

Jacobsen: On the same tack of the previous question, where are they not? In other words, where should people focus their efforts and not focus their efforts in supporting the Humanist Society of Zimbabwe?

Mazwienduna: People should focus on mobilizing the community because at the moment, it’s not easy keeping track of individual efforts that could be amplified if the community was mobilized.

Jacobsen: By the end of the Spring, what will, most certainly, have been completed since the beginning of the formalization of the Humanist Society of Zimbabwe?

Mazwienduna: There is no specific project that is expected to end any time soon.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Takudzwa.

Mazwienduna: It’s always a pleasure Scott.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Takudzwa 23 – Ubuntu-Unhu

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/02/02

Takudzwa Mazwienduna is the informal leader of Zimbabwean Secular Alliance and a member of the Humanist Society of Zimbabwe. This educational series will explore secularism in Zimbabwe from an organizational perspectiveand some more.

Here we talk about a small adjunct on Ubuntu and Unhu, and Humanism.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: How does Ubuntu translate into Unhu and vice versa?

Takudzwa Mazwienduna: Ubuntu and Unhu both mean Humanism. Ubuntu is Swahili and Unhu is Shona.

Jacobsen: How does Humanism advance the notions of Ubuntu and Unhu?

Mazwienduna: The transition can be facilitated for by a cultural reform campaign, or capacity building programs in communities, strengthening the role traditional leaders who represent such values already strive for.

Jacobsen: What will be the transition from current Zimbabwean culture to an Ubuntu-Unhu-Humanism culture? How will this take place?

Mazwienduna: Humanism has the same outlook on life as Unhu or Ubuntu. Both words literally mean Humanism, or goodness, the highest virtue anyone can have in Bantu cultures.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Takudzwa.

Mazwienduna: It’s always a pleasure Scott.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Interview with Charles D. Miller – President, Kahal Chaverim, NJ Congregation for Humanistic Judaism

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/01/30

Charles D. Miller is the President of Kahal Chaverim. Here we talk about his life, work, and views.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What were some moments impactful on worldview development?

Charles D. Miller: I am the youngest of 4 kids. We went to a conservative temple when I was younger, to a Jewish temple. Then, as I grew older, my folks moved to a Reform temple, where I was Bar Mitzvah’d. I had a traditional, Northeastern American Jewish experience with being Bat Mitzvah’d, did all the holidays, we were NOT kosher, it was cultural.

My parents never had ham growing up, which meant that we never had ham in the house. So, I grew up never having ham. Not because it is not kosher, but because we just never had it. Even though, I like a good cheeseburger with bacon. It is that kind of cultural Jew without the orthodoxy side of it.

From an early age, I questioned pivotal concepts. I’ll leave it at that. When I got older, my trade: I have graduate degrees in both history and in religious studies – the secular study of religion. As I dove deeper into history, I realized human beings defined themselves with or without religion as part of their identity.

I thought, “Wow, if I want to understand history better, then I better study how people view religion.” I studied religion from a secular viewpoint. As I dove deeper and deeper, the ideas of capital “T” truth got further and further away from things that made sense to me on a more personal level.

So, I had moved away from traditional Judaism, not feeling comfortable in Reform or Orthodox, certainly not Orthodox temples, with what people said and how they lived their lives – what they did and said in the temple during the holidays. So, you were having particularly intelligent scientists who understood the world through science, logic, and reason.

Yet, they would be saying prayers that went away from that. What they said and what they believed, it seemed to not really connect. I always find that people will find great workarounds when their personal beliefs do not necessarily mesh with their metaphysical beliefs.

They do a bunch of mental gymnastics, which I was not able to do. When I dated, it was not of interest of me to marry someone in the faith, but I was not opposed to it. I married someone who was not Jewish. Although, our kids are being raised Jewish, but in a secular humanistic congregation.

So, I don’t know if that answers the questions, or if that overkills the question.

Jacobsen: That is a great lead-in, actually. When it comes to parenting in a secular or humanistic Judaism, how do you bring this about while rejecting the supernaturalisms?

Miller: It is interesting. In the American context, now, you will get the academic side of my head. In the American context, in the absence of – and I am saying, “The United States,” not North American as Mexicans are in North American, which is a snobbery of Americans – anything in your home, in the absence of any belief system, children will end up adopting a worldview that is Christian-based, not Jesus-based.

But they will understand the world through Christian concepts. What are those concepts? There is a dichotomy: good and evil. They are just the concepts. They will wrap their heads around holidays. Winter is not a “Winter holiday.” It is a “Christian holiday” for school. It is “Easter break.”

If you do not have anything in the house, I will not do anything. It will not be in the house. The worldview is based on Christian morality because the United States is based on Christian moralities. We are founded on Enlightenment philosophy, but based on Christian morals. All the Founding Fathers were Christian of some sort.

How do we do that in the house? One of the things my wife and I decided early on. My wife said, “Look, I don’t care how we raise the kids. But I want them to have something. Then they can decide on their own later on, when they do.”

So, when they talk about things, and they go to school, my wife ends up being co-chair of our congregation’s education program, as she is a teacher, too, which made things easy. We talk about Jewish culture, Jewish history. Our congregation has been celebrating our 20th anniversary at Kahal Chaverim.

When we talk about things in our Sunday school, and when we talk about things in the holidays, we have people in the congregation who are somewhat theistic or spiritual, but they are humanistic. We have others on the other extreme who are secular and do not see an existence of a metaphysical power in the universe or who sees human beings do everything.

We talk about it. We speak about this from a young age. We have always spoken about, “What does it mean if you say, ‘There is an afterlife or not an afterlife. Do Jews believe in an afterlife? Is it the same as other afterlives?’” It is an amazing conversation to have with children.

I understand kids take on their parents’ biases. All kids do this. In a Buddhist town, the kids will have a Buddhist perspective. Until, they decide to reject it or continue in it. So, my kids, unlike their cousins who are more traditional Jews, are generally of the age and say, “I do not believe in a God. When we say our prayers, why would I thank God for everything in the universe when it is not how I view things?”

My kids, over time, say, “Okay, I get that. What about ghosts?” They say, “Yes, of course, it makes sense.” I am having this conversation with a 5-year-old and a 7-year-old. It interesting to where they got to. They got to the concepts of ghosts and spirits, and an afterlife. It is not metaphysical. It is because the cartoons have ghosts.

I used to collect comic books. Comic books have an afterlife. You come back from it. Someone’s dead. My kids are familiar with mythology from school. For them, there is no incongruity between the theology of the afterlife, which may simply be spirits that are unhappy or not able to pass on to the right place and to come back as ghosts.

They do not worry about the theological side of the question. They say, “Sure! You see this in cartoons all the time. Ghost form and not ghost form.” I have to laugh. Because here, I am thinking my kids are missing the intellectual side of it. However, my kids nailed it on the head.

Sure, the stuff exists, we talk about this stuff in books and movies all the time. Charles Dickens and all that stuff. But as they have gotten older, I don’t press the conversation as much. We do have conversations. I hear them talking with their friends who may be Jewish, “How can you be Jewish if you cannot believe in God?” My sons said, “I am Jewish because I am Jewish. There is a whole history of Judaism. I do not believe God split the Red Sea. I do not think these things make sense.”

So, as he has gotten older, he has gotten more sophisticated thought processes. But it circles back to the concept that in the United States, in absence of anything, then the kid sees the world through those Christian mores. I am thinking, even in the T.V. shows.

It always cracks me up. There is the T.V. show BewitchedSupernatural WitchesCharmed, and so on. What’s interesting, I always thought about this. The conservative or religious conservative groups are appalled by these things, by Harry Potter, because it talks about witches.

I have had these conversations with very devout faith-based or theistic-based people. They say, “I would prefer my kids to not talk about witches and not see Harry Potter.” They go through this whole thing. I do not argue with them. But we have some generally good conversations.

I always tell them, “I think you’re missing the point. By having the conversation that there are demons and witches, there is already an assumption of a Christian-based worldview because Buddhism and Hinduism, even most Americans, do not have that kind of worldview. Jesus doesn’t even have that kind of worldview, unlike Christianity.”

Just by their existence and the way they present the heroes and the villains, they are very much already assuming that Christian perspective. Again, it circles back to having to present something. So, in our household, we present Jewish culture, Jewish history.

I am going to go out tonight and get some bread with some wine. I will light the Shabbat candles. But our prayer is not, “Thank you, God, for bread.” We went through the prayers. They were humanistic prayers that SHJ has had. That Rabbi Sherwin Wine who started humanistic Judaism had done them.

I tweaked his a little bit because they didn’t resonate with me as well as I would have liked. We took out any mention of God. We talk about how we are glad for wine because it represents something – and bread represents something. The light of candles represents something.

It is a connection between us and our Jewish heritage, and our ancestors who lit candles for various reasons. Not having food meant something to them. So, bread, being able to share bread on a Friday night, was very important to them. All of these things.

We count these things in those terms.

Jacobsen: What are some other Kahal Chaverim in terms of Sukkot, Yom Kippur, and so on, when you’re not taking part in the large culture of Christian mass media?

Miller: In Kahal Chaverim, we share in all of the Jewish holidays. We just went through with the high holidays. We did Rosh Hashanah. We had the two nights of it. The night and then the day, there is a ceremony of a leader who is not a rabbi, but just a ceremonial leader and a founding member of the congregation. There is a point at which people stand up. It is the remembrance of all those who one has lost. They say, “I remember…”

They go through a list of everyone special to them: their father, their mother, a child, a dear friend, who has passed way.  We are a small congregation. [Laughing] we are a very small congregation. I should be fair about that.

Everyone got a chance to say something (everyone who wanted to). My comment, to circle back, about in absence of anything in the home; children will see the world through more Christian eyes, not Jesus, but in those kinds of things.

Judaism is what people present. So, if you have a Jewish home, whether it’s Reform, Orthodox, Conservative, Reconstructionist, Humanistic, by having that in your home, you are already presenting something very different than what the mass culture is.

There’s not much you can do with Christmas or Easter, when everything around you is celebrating Christmas and Easter. With the lights, the commercials, Santa Clauses on the corner of every street…

Jacobsen: …[Laughing]…

Miller: …all of those things. You cannot really do anything about it. I don’t think that we need to do anything about it. My kids know that they are Jewish and don’t celebrate Christmas. Although, if they want to go to their friend’s house, then they go to their friend’s house and can celebrate their holidays.

I have no problem if they go to their friend’s house as long as they are invited.

Jacobsen: We are in a time of strongman-ism across cultures, including North American and American. This comes, sometimes, tied with openly prejudiced and bigoted attitudes and remarks, and treatment, of sub-groups or sub-ethnic groups in the United States.

How do larger cultural phenomena impact sub-cultural phenomena found in humanistic Judaism and its communities?

Miller: Explain to me, define if you would, “strongman-ism,” so that we’re on the same page.

Jacobsen: Male-based, patriarchal demagoguery, something like that.

Miller: It is funny. Is there a rise of it, or is it a re-assertion of those who feel that they lost something? That is an interesting question in and of itself. It sounds like you’re asking that, “In modern culture, right now, especially in the United States but this is a worldwide phenomenon, is there a re-assertion of this patriarchal, male-dominated worldview with a resurgence and re-assertion of male perspective that also is denigrating others that are not like that person?” Is that close to it?

Jacobsen: That’s true. Yes.

Miller: Am I pretty much hitting the question correctly?

Jacobsen: Yes.

Miller: I think one of the things in humanistic Judaism. It is a very accepting worldview. People are people. I am trying this apart from the broader secular humanistic movement and its perspective.

Let’s say less as President of Kahal Chaverim, and the spokesperson of the congregation, and more as Charlie Miller, they are very close. However, the way see it in the world is people are whoever they are.

Therefore, the idea of a right type of human being and a wrong type of human being; a better type of human being and a worse type of human being. That my group is better than your group, just doesn’t work for me.

I just don’t see human beings that way. Historically, we are very much like that. Historically, human beings love to make groups and think, “My team is better than your team.” We see this all the time in tribes in how they interacted with one another.

They would define “human” as their group. It is interesting. In Indonesia, in the headhunting societies, you could kill someone else outside of your tribe and under certain conditions because it wasn’t murder. Because the others weren’t real humans. That is how people can treat others.

Why could whites treat blacks so badly? Because blacks were not considered human by many whites. The slaves were not considered human by their white owners. They were considered sub-human by many whites. Therefore, it made it easier on the dominant culture to say, “Oh, I am not treating a human being poorly. I am treating this sub-human poorly, which is okay.”

I am not saying that it is okay. I am saying that it is abhorrent. But people justified their actions in their psyche by re-making blacks sub-human. Christianity supported this idea. People would trace back human roots to Cain and Abel, and Seth, or something like that, to scripture and justify their actions in biblical terms.

People will do mental gymnastics to say, “You’re not co-equal with me. Therefore, I can treat you this way.” Literally, I was teaching, yesterday, a history class to students, colonial laws and women, and how women were not allowed, in colonial America, to own land, have a job, to inherit property.

Basically, it was legal to beat your wife. Interesting, the laws that we had in the 13 colonies. It is not the same across the board. So, there is human history where we do this. I think it’s incumbent upon people today to say, “Yes, we used to do this. Time to move on. Now, we treat people for who they are and their actions, and my interaction with them. They do not get a pass because of the color of their white skin or their male gender.”

For me, personally, how you behave is more important than any other attribute that you may have, it took a long time to get to that statement. I think I would try to impart that on my kids. I know my kids were far better boys than I was.

Not that I was bad. I see them interacting with people. They are just good people and good kids. I think that is partly based on the congregation, in how we are accepting of people. They are, for example, accepting of same-gender parents. To them, it is not different than any other parent relationship.

Jacobsen: Does this make the perspective on humanistic Judaism and secular Judaism as more oriented around a life as an ethic lived out? So, in other words, getting ridding of the supernaturalism and focusing on how one deals with people day-to-day in an ordinary way.

Miller: I, definitely, think that’s part of it. That’s it, somewhere, in its very essence. “We say what we mean, and we mean what we say.” It’s an expression that I’ve heard when I went looking for this type of congregation and met this type of congregation.

We don’t say, “Thank you, God, for creating the universe,” because I don’t believe in God. Human beings created the problems in the world. We are the ones who are going to fix it. We are the ones who created it. I think secular humanistic Jews look to science, logic, and reason to understand the universe.

A response to that comment is science eliminates beauty by making everything rational or not. I disagree, it doesn’t mean there is no beauty. I think a sunrise or sunset is stunning. But I don’t need a powerful God or other to make it even more beautiful. So, it is beautiful. It is stunning, especially if I am on the beach. I am a beach person.

But when we look at global patterns right now, when we look at issues of weather and how things have changed from records of 100 years ago, I think humanistic Jews tend to say, “Alright, there is science behind the fact that human beings are at cause here. Guess what? Science says that or demonstrates that if our understanding is off, then we will adjust the understanding with newer science, newer data, and newer information.”

“We will not be held bound by, ‘This was passed down from generation to generation and, therefore, we cannot change this scientific theory.’ No! If a better one comes along, and if it makes better sense, and if it explains the universe in a more realistic way, then fantastic!”

By “realistic,” I mean what is truthful. If our understanding is enhanced by the new theory, great, we will use that. Also, in our congregation, we have very social and political views. We have some who are slightly conservative, while many others are more centrist or liberal.

I know there are more humanistic congregations that have everything from a political perspective to Republicans, to Democrats, to fiscally conservative Republicans to fiscally conservative liberal Democrats. At the core, wherever you go in humanistic Judaism, based on personal interaction with other humanistic Jews, the burden is on the human being to better him or her self and the world around them.

It is our job to make a better world. We can’t just put our hands together and then hope for something better to happen. We have to, actually, do the work to make it happen. That will end up in our relationships with human beings. Our relationships between men and women.

Our relationships with LGBTQ. Our relationships with people of different colour. Our relationships with people of different political views, different social views. How we interact with them, it is all on us, the human being.

It is not on a metaphysical being. But it is interesting. It does not mean that we don’t have people who have a spiritual connection. I even know some logical, intelligent, articulate humanistic Jews who have a relationship with God.

They believe in God, in a way that I do not. But they are comfortable within the humanistic environment because humanistic Jews do not preach, “This is the way that you have to be.” I think we are far more open to people working on their own, dealing in their own relationships, believing in their own evolution that way.

Jacobsen: Thank you very much for the opportunity and your time, Charlie.

Miller: Sure, I hope I was helpful with that.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Interview with Ming-Feng Chen – HPT Director, Elementary School Science Teacher

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/01/25

Ming-Feng Chen is an HPT Director and an Elementary School Science Teacher, and a Freethinker in the tradition of Yiguandao. Here we talk about nonbelievers in Taiwan as part of an ongoing effort of collecting Asian region freethinker voices.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: In short, what was a point of becoming a freethinker for you?

Ming-Feng Chen: Surprisingly, my religion is the point how I enlightened and became a freethinker.  My religion is Yiguandao, which mainly inherits from Manichaeism and claims inclusivism from the top 5 religions (It’s a Chinese centrism term, means Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Daoism and Confucianism).  Although Yiguandao emphasizes religious authority and tradition, I and those ex-believers all agree the humanistic values and multi-theism from Yiguandao help us evolve into freethinkers.

Jacobsen: When did you find the community of nonbelievers in Taiwan?

Chen: Mainly found the non-believers from the internet. An atheist is not so common in Taiwan, most of the mid-age people and elders have faith. Non-believers are usually radical. Yet, rather than discrimination, people tend to label atheists as” not yet- believers”. Folk belief, witchcraft, Buddhism and Daoism traditions allow people find their own faith at least before mid-age. Scientists and science teachers are usually agnostics with sorts of beliefs. The youth are usually unfaithful believers. Nonbelievers are difficult to hold a community but not be oppressed by the society. 

Jacobsen: How is Taiwan for nonbelievers, freethinkers?

Chen: The agnostics in my generation are usually participating in some religious events but don’t take them as truth. I think it’s related to the scandals of religions that are revealed by the press. However, some of the believers and freethinkers will critic the new religious movement which participates deification of religious leaders together.

Jacobsen: What are the current problems for nonbelievers, freethinkers, in Taiwan now?

Chen: Family issues are their hugest problem, especially in our generation

Taiwanese non-believers and freethinkers are facing generational conflict and gay marriage issues. Generational conflict means no descendant inherits ancestor worship. No matter in Buddhism, Daoism or other folk religions, spiritual world is parallel from the material world and the clan is the core of Eastern Asian society. Thus, elders will get happiness and wealth in the spiritual world from their descendant’s worship. Having children inherit worship is one of the most important social values. Ironically, this conflict originally comes from Christians. Protestants refuse idolatry and ancestor worship, but Catholics make some compromise to this tradition. What we worry about is that Christians make a “united front” with these elders by the gay marriage issue. This strategy increases the influence of conservative churches in Taiwan (most of them are influenced by American evangelists). Moreover, the elders may hate atheists more than before.

However, I think it’s also an opportunity for freethinkers, more people will ask:” gods exist or not, “Do gods support anti-gay ideology” by those societal debates. Anti-gay and anti-abortion movement makes more people have a negative view toward religions.

Jacobsen: Finally, what would be your idea for an event or a political activist initiative for Taiwanese nonbelievers, freethinkers in the 2020s?

Chen: I feel like to be a freethinker is more possible than to be an atheist in Taiwan. I’m not sure that I use the term “freethinker” as same as other countries, but I think freethinker may believe some deities and supernatural beings existing. Freethinkers should emphasize reason and human efforts, taking supernatural force only as a sidekick, not a hero. Directly preaching atheism will make hopeless people convert to the extreme cult and charismatic worship (for example communism).

I know some youth left Christianity because of the conflict between social issues and religions. Although they are still believing in God, the ways they against church authority are similar to freethinkers. It’s the reason why I suggest not to narrow freethinker definition as atheist in Taiwan.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Ming-Feng Chen.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Takudzwa 22 – I am Africa: My Africa, My Zimbabwe, My Future

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/01/23

Takudzwa Mazwienduna is the informal leader of Zimbabwean Secular Alliance and a member of the Humanist Society of Zimbabwe. This educational series will explore secularism in Zimbabwe from an organizational perspectiveand some more.

Here we talk about African cultural embedment.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What is Africa to you?

Takudzwa Mazwienduna: Africa to me is home. I grew up in the culture and amongst the people, and the society shaped me. There is always a strong sense of familiarity whenever I’m in any African country.

Jacobsen: What is Zimbabwe as a culture embedded in the wider African culture(s) to you?

Mazwienduna: Zimbabwe like most African countries, is a young nation with a dark past of colonialism, still battling its demons from that era. The borders of the country were drawn by Otto Von Bismarck at the Berlin Conference in 1888, with no single African in attendance, so it’s not a nation that defines a people. A lot of Karanga, Ndau, Tonga and Manyika people can also be found in Mozambique, Malawi, South Africa and Zambia; other countries that should have been one with ours. They all used to be part of the Mutapa empire: a 14th century post Great Zimbabwe empire that defeated Portuguese invasions several times before British colonization 400 years later. I like most nationalists identify with that older establishment, we are the same people with the same history split in 5 countries by the Berlin Conference. The concept of nationalism is that complicated in most African countries which explains the Civil Wars and endless coups in countries where borders were drawn with various opposing tribes like Nigeria or Rwanda.

Jacobsen: What in Africa embodies a humanist state of mind, in terms of the ethics and practices found throughout Africa?

Mazwienduna: There is a common cultural doctrine in every Bantu society from West Africa right down to Southern Africa called Ubuntu (Unhu in my language). It basically translates to humanism or humane manners. It is the ethics that guide human interactions in Bantu culture and most African kingdoms were sort of Utopias because of that until colonization disrupted the cultural progress, replacing it with dogma. Humanism for Africa is a matter of claiming that cultural heritage back and discarding redundant notions that have come with colonial culture.

Jacobsen: How do these grounds make for fertile soil for humanist values to take root in Zimbabwe more in this – what we hope is a – post-colonial context?

Mazwienduna: Most Zimbabweans just like most Africans can relate to Ubuntu, it’s the principles our grandparents used to teach us before our parents took us to church. They simply have to reconnect with that narrative.

Jacobsen: How is the future of Zimbabwe linked up to the future of science, technology, human rights, and, indeed, an African humanist future orientation in political and social life?

Mazwienduna: There is a lot to be done to promote a culture of enlightenment in Zimbabwe. With the rise of the internet, the society is radically transforming and catching up to science and progress. If the conversation goes mainstream, we will be having a different discussion in a decade.

Jacobsen: How can the Humanist Society of Zimbabwe be a frontrunner in this wave?

Mazwienduna: The Humanist Society of Zimbabwe has to get the conversation going, and increase civic awareness amongst the people. They have to create a platform for religious dialogue.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Takudzwa.

Mazwienduna: It’s always a pleasure Scott.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Interview with Kuan-Yu Chiang – Freethinker from Taipei, Taiwan

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/01/23

Kuan-Yu Chiang is an HPT Chief Supervisor and Medical Doctor and a Freethinker from Taipei, Taiwan. Here we talk, in brief, about nonbelievers in Taiwan as part of an ongoing effort of collecting Asian region freethinker voices.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: In short, what was a point of becoming a freethinker for you?

Kuan-Yu Chiang: Don’t want to be restrained, and will not be run and suppressed by narrow Internet opinion.

Jacobsen: When did you find the community of nonbelievers in Taiwan?

Chiang: In the battle against cyberbullyers with progressive values, I finally found a group of like-minded people who can have friendly discussions on the Internet.

Jacobsen: How is Taiwan for nonbelievers, freethinkers?

Chiang: It can’t be recognized on the surface, but it is actually the common aspiration of every core idea that has not been examined by religion and specific groups.

Jacobsen: What are the current problems for nonbelievers, freethinkers, in Taiwan now?

Chiang: Still weak.

Jacobsen: Finally, what would be your idea for an event or a political activist initiative for Taiwanese nonbelievers, freethinkers in the 2020s?

Chiang: Promote more friendly and inclusive discussions, reduce bullying, return to rational and horizontal communication, criticize the mainstream hegemony of the Internet, and gain more recognition. This may be the common goal that non-believers in Taiwan can do at this stage.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Interview with Professor Alice Roberts – President, Humanists UK & President, British Science Association

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/01/21

From her website: “I’m an academic, writer and broadcaster. I’m interested in the structure of humans, how we function, and our place in the wider environment.

I make programmes and write books about human anatomy, physiology, evolution, archaeology and history. I passionately believe that universities are about generating and spreading knowledge to the widest possible audience.

I’m a medical doctor, and went on to become a university lecturer. I taught human anatomy to students and doctors, and did research into human origins and disease in ancient skeletons – which formed the basis for my PhD. But all the time, I felt that it was important to engage with people outside universities, of all ages and backgrounds. I’ve been Professor of Public Engagement with Science at the University of Birmingham since 2012.

I made my television debut back in 2001, as a human bone specialist on Channel 4’s Time Team. I went on to present Coast on BBC2, and then to write and present a range of television series for BBC2, including The Incredible Human Journey, Origins of Us and Ice Age Giants, as well as several Horizon programmes. I’ve presented five series of the popular Digging for Britain series, looking at the freshest, most exciting archaeology in the UK. We’ll be returning with Series 6 later this year.

I’ve written seven popular science books. My book The Incredible Unlikeliness of Being, was shortlisted for the Wellcome Book Prize 2015.”

Source: https://www.alice-roberts.co.uk/.

Here we talk about her life, work, and views.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Let’s start from the top. What is your story of finding humanism, finding science, and becoming one of the most prominent people in the community?

Professor Alice Roberts: I think, for me, it’s about an extension of a scientific worldview. I was interested in science from a young age – and I was interested in biology in particular. I went on to study medicine at university, and became a medical doctor, before taking a side-step into academia – as an anatomy lecturer.

I was brought up as an Anglican – in the Church of England. My parents were very religious, and went to church every Sunday. As a child, I went to Sunday School and then to church later. I was even confirmed at age 14. I think that sharpened my mind a bit – it makes you look hard at your belief.

The following year, I decided that I simply didn’t believe in enough of the dogma to call myself a Christian any more. There was just far too much that seemed to be unsubstantiated claims.

Jacobsen: You were ‘disconfirmed.

Roberts: Yes [Laughing], my confirmation lessons were interesting. We didn’t talk about God that much. I was doing Ancient Greek GCSE at school, and my local vicar was a classicist – so we had a great time translating bits of the Bible. I approached it like any other text – something which was wonderfully ancient, but not the ‘word of god’.

The following year, I thought about this more deeply. I had conversations with my father over the year. He was quite sanguine about most of the bible, seeing it as rich in storytelling and metaphor. Anglicanism does seem pretty much as close to agnosticism as you can get, as a Christian, anyway!

Modern Anglicanism does allow for that critical approach to the texts. My father approached it like that, seeing the Bible as a collection of stories – particularly the Old Testament, which is a collection of stories put together by people over perhaps thousands of years. They are legends and myths – fact and fiction intertwined.

But when it comes to the New Testament – as a Christian, you have to believe in the veracity of that, or at least some of it. Even if you don’t believe in the miracles of Christ, even if you think most of it is storytelling and not factually accurate – you have to believe in something, if you call yourself a Christian. You have to believe in Jesus as the son of God – and you have to believe in God.

So I got to the point with my questioning of my own belief, where I realised I simply didn’t believe in God. For me, Anglicanism as a form of Christianity contained the seeds of its own destruction – as it gave me permission to be critical, to question the dogma. If you start seeing some of the ancient texts as essentially mythological, that can expand to include the entire bible.

For me, the endpoint of the critical enquiry was that I didn’t see any real evidence for God, and didn’t see a reason to believe in something just because other people think it might exist, with no way of testing or proving that.

So, aged 15, I stopped believing (if indeed I ever really had) and I stopped going to church. It was a difficult decision at the time – my whole family was religious. When I’d gone to church on a Sunday, it was quite social – I’d see my grandparents there – so there was a strong social element that I missed. I definitely felt a feeling of separation from that community I’d been brought up with.

Jacobsen: But having rejected religion – what did atheism – and humanism – mean to you?

Roberts: Well, I actually remember feeling a bit uncomfortable with the definition of atheism. The fact that atheism is defined as an absence. I find this really odd – to be defined by something you don’t believe in. I don’t believe the Earth is flat – but I wouldn’t describe myself as an un-flat-earther. It is an odd cognitive and descriptive problem, I think. It comes from the historical hegemony of religion, I suppose – at one time, most people were religious. But now more than half the UK population is not religious, it seems out of date to define anyone by a lack of religion.

Later on, when I came across humanism, I found that fitted very well with my personal philosophy on life. In fact, I think that’s true for a lot of people. I’ve certainly found that when I’ve explained to people – in person and on social media – what humanism’s about. You often get the response: “Oh, ok, I probably am a humanist, then.” It does seem quite natural and uncomplicated – you approach the world rationally, and value empathy and kindness too.

Quite importantly, humanism is about believing in the capacity of humans to create goodness in the world. The fact that goodness comes from people. I am on very friendly terms with my local vicar, and we’ve had some interesting conversations about religion and humanism. When I first tried to explain humanism to her, I said I thought it might ultimately boil down to this question of the source of goodness, of morality. That the religious perspective is that goodness comes from some external, divine source. But the humanist perspective is that it simply comes from us, from inside humans. That doesn’t mean I think good morals are somehow innate – it’s something that has to be worked on, as individuals and as a society.

I am a great fan of Steven Pinker. He’s argued in The Better Angels of Our Nature that, over time, we’ve been able to increasingly employ the better aspects of our human nature, and that we’ve emerged with better morals than our ancestors had in the past. We’ve mostly done that through the application of reason to moral problems. A combination of logic and empathy underpinned the rights revolutions, from the 19th century, into the 20th century, and into the 21st century. I think most people would agree those rights revolutions represent moral progress. I think Pinker’s right – they really happened through the application of reason and the infallibility of the logic – that says, “You’re not worth more than anyone else. So – you must have equality.” That was a long-winded answer!

Jacobsen: It was a very good answer. How did you get interested in anatomy?

Roberts: I cannot remember a time not being interested in it. I remember being absolutely fascinated with finding little skeletons of rats and birds, and coming home with little bird skulls.

I was particularly fascinated by human anatomy, and I really enjoyed studying biology at school. I went to university in the early 90’s in Britain. At that point, anatomy was a big part of the medical course. I spent 9 hours a week dissecting human bodies. I thrived on it. I was absolutely fascinated by the intricate machinery of the human body. I did an extra degree in the middle of my medical degree, where I specialized in anatomy and embryology.

I qualified as a doctor, worked as a junior doctor in South Wales, and then did what I thought would be a 6-month teaching job at Bristol University. It’s quite a standard thing for young surgeons to take some time out to teach medical students, and it helps you brush up on your own anatomy. But I ended up staying for 11 years!

I think that I would have been perfectly happy as a surgeon. In some parallel universe, there I am – as a paediatric surgeon. I didn’t really make a conscious decision to leave medicine and surgery; I just got delightfully sidetracked into academia.

So I entered academia as a clinical doctor, but not with a PhD. I then did a long-winded, long-drawn out PhD, which took me 7 years, looking at shoulder disease in ancient skeletons, and in apes, from an evolutionary perspective.

Jacobsen: Do you think religion affects how people look at the human body, and the ethical debates such as the pro-life/pro-choice debate?

Roberts: Yes, absolutely. Those important ethical questions are, I think, issues where there does tend to be a difference of opinion between the majority of people who are religious and the majority of people who are not religious. But I don’t think it is across the board. I know plenty of religious people who are pro-choice. I know some non-religious people who are pro-life. But religious attitudes to the human body – and human life – can make a huge difference in a country or state where a particular religion holds sway.

There you have a religious institution or a church, essentially telling people what they should do with their bodies. I think similar debates then play out at the end of life as well. Your religion may tell you that life is sacred, and that you would be committing an ultimate sin by deciding to take your own life – even if you were terminally ill.

Jacobsen: Both cases – assisted dying and abortion – touch on the topic of individual autonomy. Is that the crux of it – that the humanistic ethic promotes individual autonomy whereas the religious ethic says, “You don’t have a choice over ending your life because you don’t, ultimately, own your own life. You are God’s child,”?

Roberts: I think you’re right – it is about autonomy. That harks back to what I talked about earlier too – that idea of an external arbiter of morals. The idea that you cannot depend on your own reason to reach a decision about whether to end the life of an embryo or the right to end your own life. It is can never be right because an external arbiter has already decreed that it is not right.

Jacobsen: If we look at the human body, what are good cases for seeing ourselves as evolved organisms?

Roberts: I did a program on this for the BBC last year. We had great fun with it. It started because I had said, on numerous occasions, that I thought – despite the human body being a marvellous machine, intricate and beautiful, and detailed – it was also riddled with flaws. It is a bit of a hodgepodge in places – because of both evolutionary development and embryonic development. Obviously, when you’re developing in the womb, that embryo, that fetus, has to work as a body. And that’s a very different physiological challenge to when you’re born – and become an air-breathing, independent organism. The way things form in the embryo also leave some baggage behind as well. Some things form more quickly than other things. You get wires to develop with muscles and then migrate elsewhere, so the nerves have to migrate with them. Then you will get another structure intervening and pushing the nerve, until it becomes much longer. There’s a great example of this in the throat: the recurrent laryngeal nerve. It supplies the voice box, which I am using right now. It branches off its parent nerve high in the neck here – then it should have a journey of a couple of centimeters to the voice box. Instead, it goes all the way down to the chest, under the subclavian artery on the right and the aorta on the left, then goes right back up again. It is a ridiculous thing. You could certainly tidy it up.

There are lots of other bits of anatomy, where you think, “I could design that better!”

For instance, I wouldn’t have gone for the 5 lumbar vertebrae; I would go for the original ape spine, which, we think was just 4 lumbar vertebrae – less flexible but more stable. It would eliminate the problem of slipped discs, brilliant! Bad backs – one of the most common reasons people attend a physician. You could get rid of that very easily, if you were God, if you were an ‘intelligent designer’!

On that BBC programme, we collided science and art. I worked with an amazing artist named Scott Eaton. He scanned my body and then tweaked it in all sorts of ways, that I suggested, to make it ‘perfect’. Of course, every tweak had a knock-on effect – and one of the take-home messages was that – the body might be a bit of a hodge-podge, but it all works, taken together.

I’ve looked at anatomy and development in my writing too. I wrote a book weaving together embryology and evolution called The Incredible Unlikeliness of Being. It also touches on humanist, atheist ideas throughout, without explicitly saying, “This is a book about atheism, and why I am an atheist.”

One of those ideas is the sheer unlikeliness of your being here. Obviously, you are a unique genetic individual. That relied on a chance meeting. Then, that month for your mom’s egg – and one single sperm among millions. When you were conceived, it could have easily been another egg, another sperm. Each one has a different complement of DNA – so ‘you’ would have ended up being a completely different individual than you are now.

That unlikeliness of existence makes me think, “Yes, it is highly unlikely for me to be here. But as an atheist and a humanist, I am lucky to be here. I might as well enjoy it and make my life meaningful.” Humanists don’t believe in any divine purpose behind our existence. There is no external meaning: we have to create the meaning in our own lives.

I find that a positive philosophy. A joyful philosophy. You are not put here for a reason. But you make a reason by the time that you die.

Jacobsen: In your latest book, Tamed, you’ve written about later human history – particularly the start of farming – and how that ties in with religion. What can we learn about the emergence of religion from archaeology?

Roberts: Well, one of the most interesting sites that I have ever been to was in Southern Turkey, about 30 miles from the Syrian border. It’s called Gobekli Tepe. I was lucky enough to visit there 11 years ago, when Klaus Schmidt, the original director of the excavations, was digging there.

He took me on a tour. It is an utterly astonishing site with huge stone T-shaped pillars arranged in circles. It doesn’t seem to be a settlement. There doesn’t seem to be any evidence of people living there. So – it seems to be a ritual site, perhaps we could even call it a temple. It certainly looks like some form of ritual activity bringing people together on a large scale.

The iconography on the pillars is utterly mind-blowing. There are images of birds, mammals. Some are carved in relief, others in the round. It is 11,500-years-old. When it was first discovered, I think a lot of people didn’t believe the date because it seems to be too early for anything that sophisticated in terms of the craftsmanship.

I don’t think we will ever know what those images mean – though we know they mean something. They seem to be stories – but again, we will never know the details of those stories.

In that storytelling, we may be seeing the beginnings of what could be called a religion. And that turns our ideas about when and how religion appeared on its head. We used to think organised religion came after farming – but Gobekli Tepe is pre-agricultural. Perhaps, religion is emerging first as a system of thinking, a system of belief, which brings people together on a large scale and influences them to be involved in the collaborative projects like building Gobekli Tepe. And then that’s what leads into the Neolithic Revolution – because you need to provide food for all those people. They’ve also recently found early evidence of beer from Gobekli Tepe [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing] it could have been – I don’t know – a cave club.

Roberts: Yes, some kind of beer cult [Laughing].

Jacobsen: Are you worried about the rise of nationalistic problems, xenophobic problems and even threats to human rights in the world right now? Do you think humanism can provide answers?

Roberts: I think a lot of people here in Britain and throughout the world would recognise the phenomenon you’ve described: nationalism, a rising authoritarianism, and a possible reversal of some of the rights revolutions that have happened from the 19th into the 21st centuries.

If this is true, it is immensely worrying. I don’t think many of us would want to go back to a world when particular people in our societies were oppressed. From a humanist perspective, going back to the infallible logic, logic does not recognize a difference between you and me. There should be no difference between you and me: so we should strive for equal rights.

But I think the big elephant in the room is the economic disparity around the world. We’ve come a long way with human rights. But I wonder if – when people will look back on us in, say, 500 years – if we are still here as a species (which I hope we are) – whether they will as relatively still medieval, in terms of our ability to distribute wealth evenly and to give people equal life chances.

If we should be treated equally in terms of the law in an individual country, then you can extend that argument globally. You can say, “We should be striving for equal life chances across the world.” I don’t think that’s even dimly on the horizon, yet.

Having said that, most countries in the world saw an increase in the quality and longevity of life over the 20th century. So we’re heading in the right direction. But we still have a long way to go.

I think that is the business of the immediate future. We should make sure that hard-won rights are not reversed. The first thing to do is to make sure they’re translated into law. Once they are translated into law, it becomes harder to dismantle.

This has always been part of what Humanists UK does. They are constantly lobbying government to make sure that progress on rights are enshrined in law – making sure that same sex marriage is legalised, that weddings for non-religious couples are legalised, for instance.

Jacobsen: In personal life, what role are you most proud of? In professional life, what role have you been most proud of?

Roberts: In my personal life – I think most parents would say this: “my kids.” Becoming a mom, a parent, completely transforms you. I have found it a really amazing journey – and a fulfilling, and satisfying, journey. It is interesting going from being a person in a couple, without children – wondering if you have it in you to be unselfish enough to have children. And then you do – and it certainly makes you less selfish.

You have to change your life, in ways that you cannot even imagine before you have children. And it’s wonderful. They are wonderful. My two are 9 and 6 now.

Professionally, I have been very lucky to receive lots of or various accolades over the years. I feel privileged to the current President of Humanists UK. And this year, I’m also President of the British Science Association.

Ten years ago, I would not have imagined I’d be in these roles today – I feel really humbled and honoured. But in terms of what I’m proudest of, professionally, I think it has to be about my Ph.D.

It went on, and on, and on, and on, and on. I nearly gave up on a few occasions. And I bloody got it! [Laughing]

Jacobsen: What traits do you identify as most valuable in human beings?

Roberts: The two things which I think are fundamental are reason and empathy. You can see that going back into prehistory, from the dawn of our species, even.

I think the empathy comes from being sociable animals. We exist in large groups. There’s good reason to believe that much about the evolution of the large human brain is about sociality.

That is certainly what we see among other animals. The more social animals are, then the bigger the brains. Then I think that what we have seen going through human history, and what we see clearly now, in terms of a kind of moral-ethical approach – is that we are at our best when we cooperate with each other.

When I say, “At our best,” I mean, we have our best chance of improving lives for everybody when we cooperate with each other. That has to be a reasonable aim.

And I think this moves us beyond moral relativism. I think cooperation, which depends on traits like empathy, has been really important throughout human history. Reason, which we see in a problem-solving approach to the world, working out cause and effect, and being able to modify the world around you, by applying reason to problems – provides us with the cognitive tools to overcome real world challenges. I think those two together – reason and empathy – make us the best that we can be.

Jacobsen: Softballs, what book or books are you reading now?

Roberts: I just finished – it was amazing! – Naomi Alderman The Power, which is a bit of a mind-bending book about women developing the power to electrocute people – and how that might change society. I loved the ending. It’s a brilliant book.

I am also reading Pavaliland Cave and the ‘Red Lady’ by Stephen Aldhouse-Green – about the oldest burial in Britain, 30,000 years ago. There is always an academic book on the go at the same time as a novel!

And I am also reading a book to my children as well, written by my very good friend, Janina Ramirez, called Way of the Waves. It’s her second novel for children about a Viking girl who is also a detective, and it’s excellent.

Jacobsen: Last question, for the next generation, even your children when they become adults, what do you want them to know?

Roberts: I want them to know themselves. I want them to be confident that they can approach the world out there and the world of human learning. I want them to know that they can make the world a better place.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Professor Roberts.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Takudzwa 21 – The Nature of Activism with Fewer Resources

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/01/18

Takudzwa Mazwienduna is the informal leader of Zimbabwean Secular Alliance and a member of the Humanist Society of Zimbabwe. This educational series will explore secularism in Zimbabwe from an organizational perspectiveand some more.

Here we talk about making headway with humanist organizations.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Things in Zimbabwe are complicated. Including its history, From 1898 to 1964, “Zimbabwe” was called “Southern Rhodesia,” or until 1980 based on British law, “Rhodesia from 1964 to 1979, and, for – literally – a few months, “Zimbabwe Rhodesia” between June, 1979 and December, 1979. This represents the complicated work of extrication from colonial institutional and legal rule. Its economy is largely mining and agriculture. Its GDP at PPP (Purchasing Power Parity), circa 2017, is $34.27 billion or 127th in the world. This is, internationally speaking, a relatively poor context. In turn, fundamentalist religion can be more likely to flourish and secular activism can be more difficult to enact. What would be a restriction on an individual working to found a group, financially, in Zimbabwe?

Takudzwa Mazwienduna: Founding a group in Zimbabwe indeed has a lot of financial obstacles. It’s costly to mobilize people who are scattered across the country, let alone getting all the clearance needed for that in the corrupt military/ police state that Zimbabwe currently is.

Jacobsen: Why would making a new humanist group make less sense than simply joining the one for yourselves in this financial context – as citizens may struggle without independent wealth?

Mazwienduna: That is because the resources and red tape needed to pull that off is astronomical. It is also important to have connections with the establishment which already existing organizations have.

Jacobsen: What is the status of informal groups in Zimbabwe now? Because these were the touching points before the humanist society launched as the inaugural, only, and groundbreaking humanist organization recognized by the government of Zimbabwe in Zimbabwe.

Mazwienduna: Informal groups in Zimbabwe today are usually just individual initiatives by members of the already established Humanist Society of Zimbabwe. Some members may have found issues that they feel need attention that are not covered by the established organization such as the secularism and cultural reform awareness campaign; Zimbabwean Atheists. They are individual efforts that could break into the mainstream movement one day of they are successful or gain traction.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Takudzwa.

Mazwienduna: It’s always a pleasure, Scott.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Melissa 2 – Territorial in the Provinces, Provincial in the Mental Territory: The Provinces’ and the Territories’ Biology Education Contexts

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/01/14

Melissa Story lives in Eastern Ontario with her husband and three cats. She studied Advertising & Public Relations at St. Lawrence College in Kingston. She worked in the events industry for a few years, before returning to post-secondary to pursue a degree in Psychology. She received her psychology BA from the University of Waterloo in 2010 and continued her studies at Carleton University until 2013 when she graduated with a double honours BA in psychology and religion. She was the recipient of the Robert E Osbourne memorial scholarship for excellence in the study of religion in 2012 and 2013. Melissa currently works from home as a writer, blogger, and social media marketer, while also pursuing her artistic passions. She shares her perspective on religion and public life on her social media feeds and on her blog: https://thefeed.blackchicken.ca/.  

Here we talk about provinces and territories, and creationism.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Provinces and territories differ in Canadian society in some ways. One comes from the creationist efforts. The territories see much less or none compared to the provinces. Why the differential between the provinces and the territories? It cannot be the weather alone.

Melissa Story: I’m not familiar with the current rates of creationist efforts in the territories or across the country, however, it’s safe to assume that creationist efforts are concentrated in populations that can sustain the movement. Much like any movement, it’s centered where it’s going to be fed in order to maximize success of surviving and growing.

Jacobsen: What makes the provinces better suited for creationist theological ideologies to flourish in the churches, the home schools and associated home school efforts, the private institutions of higher learning, and the spread of the false notion of controversy amongst scientists on the fact and theory of evolution via natural selection? As we both know, the ‘controversy’ does not amount to a scientific one, but to a socio-cultural and educational curriculum one.

Story: I don’t think they are necessarily better suited. I think we see more creationist activity in provinces because we see more diversity, and thus more people challenging worldviews. I think you will see more creationist activity in the future in the territories as creationist groups who are already mobilised spread the movement into untapped areas. In my own community, one local ministry aligned with the apostolic reformation has plans for a mission to Nunavut. They are collecting cash donations, gas cards, and non-perishable items to drive to Nunavut. We’ve seen these kinds of evangelical missions before. We know they come with a heavy dose of attempted indoctrination. We are also seeing more people identify as non-religious and this threatens the very notion of a Christian society. For those who take the world of God literally, this can present an existential crisis. I think that is why we are are seeing the resurgence of some of these groups and indeed splintering of these groups occurring. The next few years are going to be interesting.

Jacobsen: Sometimes, those who believe in a flat Earth get accused of reading the Bible in too literal a fashion for the young Earth creationists who in turn get seen as reading the Bible in too fundamentalist a manner for old Earth creationists, into the progressive creationists and theistic evolutionists, and so on and so forth, in North America. What in-fighting seems quintessentially Canadian in this regard within the creationist communities found in this country? One would assume a lot of non-Apologetics apologetics, in traditional Canadian fashion. I recall a recent interview with Margaret Atwood, in which she notes Canadians don’t do pride very well – very true.

Story: I’m not sure there is a quintessential Canadian attribute because I see this as a worldwide movement. In particular, there is a lot of influence from some of the megachurches down south. What is quintessentially Canadian is our politeness around the subject of religion. As a multicultural nation, we try and respect all cultures, that includes various Christian cultures, and indeed Creationist ideology. As a Canadian, you are free to believe. The challenge is to bring religion into a public debate about its influences on our institutions. Canadians don’t talk much about religion and therefore they don’t believe we have problems with religion influencing the public sphere. It’s a very slippery slope.

One example I like to point out is that it is very rare for Canadian politicians to talk much about their religion. They usually don’t advertise it on their political pages. Contrast that with our neighbours to the south and you’ll see that a politician’s religion is proudly announced on their political pages. Canadians put forth the appearance of a separation between church and state, but I fear that as that line becomes less and less clear, that Canadians may not even notice it happening. As I’ve mentioned in a previous interview, Canada does not have a strict separation of church and state enshrined into its Charter. Canadians don’t like to talk religion, but the fact is – there IS religious privilege in this country. One only needs to look at ongoing funding of the Catholic School Board to see how Canada is anything, but religiously neutral.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Melissa.

Story: Thanks, Scott.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask SASS 11 – Who Wants to be a Marriage Officer, South Africa Edition?: “Cancel my application, I am a Christian and I believe in GOD!”

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/01/13

This is an ongoing and new series devoted to the South African Secular Society (SASS) and South African secularism. The Past President, Jani Schoeman, and the Current President, Rick Raubenheimer, and the current Vice-President, Wynand Meijer, will be taking part in this series to illuminate these facets of South Africa culture to us. Rick and Wynand join us.

Here we talk about marriage officer applicants in South Africa.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Let’s talk about some of the formal opposition to SASS. As you were noting to me, some of them comedic, and educational at the same time. What have been some of the oppositions to SASS? How have you dealt with them? How have you learned from them?

Rick Raubenheimer: Let’s talk about our experience with the Department of Home Affairs in trying to register as an organization that can designate marriage officers. We originally were prompted by one of our members who wanted to become a marriage officer.

We discovered that he needed an organization to back him. Being a secular person, he asked if SASS could back him. He had already got the information that Home Affairs needed to Home Affairs, but then he needed a recommendation from an organization.

So, we inquired of Home Affairs. They said that they wanted a list of 250 members with their signatures to prove that we were an existing organization. The fact that we were a non-profit organization registered with the Department of Social Development didn’t cut any ice for them.

They were keen on knowing that we were a national organization. We went to quite a lot of trouble because we are a national organization for members to sign online. We would send them electronic proof of an electronic signature, which we duly did.

And they rejected it [Laughing]. We did a bunch of to-ing and fro-ing. We asked them, “What do you really want?” They appeared to be moving the goalposts for a while. I had a quite sharp conversation with Mr. Gunning’s superior, “sharp” from his side.

The next day, he was quite reconciliatory. It was amazing. It was as if he had a bad day and then had a good night’s sleep and felt better the next morning. The goalposts came to rest on giving a list of 250 member names with South African Identity numbers.

We have identity numbers that start with our birthday in the form of 2-digit year, 2-digit month, 2-digit day. Then there is a number below 5,000 if you are female and above 5,000 if you are male, and then with digits at the end. Those mean a variety of things.

The ID number can be verified as being a valid ID number. So, we then created a whole campaign again. We emailed all the people who signed up for the first time. We put the thing up on the website.

We ended up with something like 320 if I remember correctly after publicizing this on social media and phoning a few people. Then the two aspirant marriage officers phoned their contacts. We sent more to them.

They did duly approve of us. That was our experience with Home Affairs, as far as that was concerned.

Then as we mentioned in the preamble, now, that we can register marriage officers. We have had various applications from theists. We point people at the SASS mission statement and ethos, which includes the naturalist worldview.

We say very early on, “Do you support the SASS mission and ethos?” The only choice is, “Yes.” We say, “Are you prepared to do marriage ceremonies free of supernatural content?” The only answer is, “Yes.”

We say, “Are you prepared to do same-sex and heterosexual sex marriages?” The only answer is, “Yes.” There is, “Are you prepared to do counselling?” It is an optional one. Anyway, people will blithely skim through these, “Yes, yes, yes, carry on, no problems.”

Then we ask for motivation, “Why do you want to become a secular marriage officer?” At that point, we can quite easily get things like, “Oh, I am a pastor at so-and-so congregation. I wanted to marry my congregants.”

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Raubenheimer: We also get, “I am a prominent member of x, y, z church.” We don’t see it is in the motivation, but we also ask them for sample ceremonies.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Raubenheimer: For example, in fact, we had one very recently. I hadn’t gone through the ceremony when we copied it in. We put this one on Google Docs, so the whole team could see it. But I started reading it.

And oops! This chap is mentioning God!

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Raubenheimer: He has 4 citations of God! He has got several references to several biblical verses.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Raubenheimer: Now, in fact, Wynand can tell you more about how this one got through the cracks. He set up various protections. But due to technical website issues, he turned it off. So, the person had got through right to that point.

I emailed him to say, “I noticed that you’ve ticked all the boxes saying you’re a secular person and everything else. You’ve agreed to the terms and conditions and everything else. But I see that you’re citing God and making biblical references in your marriage ceremonies. Can you clarify for us?”

He writes back and says, “Cancel my application, I am a Christian and I believe in GOD!”

[Wynand’s Meijer’s wife laughing in the background – not part of the conversation, but listening into it, obviously.]

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Raubenheimer: I wrote back saying, “Please tell us how you got that far through our form, so that we can make it easier and waste their time.” I didn’t mention wasting our time, which was obvious as well.

I did not hear back from him. The interesting thing is, this man is an attorney.

Jacobsen: Oh my goodness.

Raubenheimer: So, you can understand a lot of these people who are pastors or ministers have started a church, read a bit of the Bible, are good speakers in the vernacular, have a congregation, have some people who support them, and so on.

They are not what you and I would call educated people. So, we can understand them not understanding terms like “secular,” even “applications of the supernatural” or what have you, but here’s an attorney!

You would think, first of all, that he understands the concept about not lying on an official document. He understands the concept – you would hope – of reading a document before you put your name to it.

Yet, here he is, he has gone through the whole process and didn’t stint on the ceremony. He, actually, did quite a lot of work on it: writing it out, putting out the details, and much better than others who give us a few lines, which is not acceptable.

Someone gave us a one-liner for each of the ceremonies [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Raubenheimer: So, it is puzzling where his head was. Maybe, it is a case of the idea of being secular and not believing in God was so far out of his frame of reference; that it didn’t feature anywhere in his consciousness.

That’s all I can think was the case for him. I don’t think he was deliberately trolling us. One of the ones who has come through more recently may be doing that now.

Another question included is paying for SASS membership in becoming a marriage officer, as long as they are a marriage officer.

Jacobsen: What is the big takeaway for some other organizations that want to set up a marriage ceremony program/officiant program?

Raubenheimer: You have to be very clear on what you mean by “secular.” Even now, I can screen share if this will be of interest to you. I have a big block on a yellow background above the application saying, “Please STOP NOW and STUDY the SASS Mission Statement and Ethos.  Kindly note that we have a rational, science-based worldview.  That supports Humanism, freethought, “Brights”, non-religion, atheism and agnosticism. SASS will NOT accept you as a Marriage Officer if you promote belief in the supernatural. This includes a god (or gods), devils, angels, fairies, tokoloshe, witchcraft, astrology, psychics, homeopathy, Creationism, crystal healing, and similar non-science.”

Jacobsen: What is tokoloshe?

Raubenheimer: That is a local…

Wynand Meijer: …Leprechaun.

Jacobsen: [Laughing] what is its power?

Raubenheimer: It is supposed to be a very little creature that steals people when sleeping.

Jacobsen: A little person steals big people.

Raubenheimer: Perhaps, they come in numbers. We’re not sure because no one has ever captured one.

Jacobsen: That’s unfortunate. What’s their colour?

Raubenheimer: Again, this is not obvious. A comic strip of ours ran a series on them for a while. But it was probably not related to the mythology. Interestingly enough, as a result of the superstition, if you go into the homes of a lot of black people (in South Africa), you will find that their beds are up on bricks, to get them higher off the ground so the tokoloshe can’t reach them.

Jacobsen: What’s the equivalent in the Afrikaaner community?

Raubenheimer: I don’t think there is one.

Meijer: We don’t have one, really. There are things we do have; it is more like karma based. die blinde sambok, the blind sjambok 

Raubenheimer: A sjambok is a type of whip.

Meijer: Yes, it is a type of whip. If you do something, and if it is not really up to standard, then die blinde sambok will come and get you. It is more karma. If you do something bad, then it will come and get you.

Raubenheimer: I don’t recall that one. And I grew up in an Afrikaans community.

Meijer: Yes, die blinde sambok. Others scare their children with the sakabula, like the Boogeyman. You say it once or twice. But there is not a whole mythology behind the thing.

Jacobsen: In some of Canada, you can do ‘ghost’ tours. In my own province, they have several. We have several. Is there something like that in South Africa like tourism for supernatural claims?

Raubenheimer: Yes, in Johannesburg, there is a ghost bus tour that runs occasionally.

Jacobsen: A real ghostbuster!

Raubenheimer: No, a vehicle, a bus, they take a tour visiting graveyards and visit houses where there have supposedly been murders.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Raubenheimer: Things like that. I don’t know great details of it. There was, for example, a famous murderer called Daisy de Melker who murdered her husbands for the insurance money. She had something like 4 husbands whom she murdered for the insurance.

Eventually, she was caught.  And hanged.

Jacobsen: That’s morbid.

Raubenheimer: I think her house might be one of the items on the tour.

Jacobsen: Oh my gosh.

Raubenheimer: Yes, someone who you would not like to marry.

Jacobsen: [Laughing] following from those, are there any other moments in SASS history along those lines when accidents really happened, and you learned from them?

Raubenheimer: Yes, in fact, we didn’t finish saying what we did on the website to try to eliminate the theists. So, I’ve got this big yellow block. I finish by saying, “If you practice any religion, please do not waste your time and ours by applying. Please return when you have taken reason and reality as your guide, and abandoned superstition. Thank you for your interest!”

Apparently, people go straight past that. No problem.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Raubenheimer: They carry on with the form. So, Wynand has put in the Dawkins Scale right near the top.

Jacobsen: Good.

Raubenheimer: If anyone is near theist side of the scale, the form says, “Sorry, we can no longer continue with this application.” We also have a question, “Are you a minister, pastor, spiritual advisor, or leader of your community?”

“Yes” is the default for carrying on.

Meijer: We have seen people who bypass by selecting the right answer on the Dawkins Scale. But then, you sit with “Are you a minister?…” We have found how to better navigate. It is to stop people from entering details.

I would say that we, generally, get 3 to 4 applications a week without these stops in place.

Raubenheimer: Yes, there were, of course, technical issues. There, Wynand turned off the code preventing people from going further. We do get people saying, “I do not believe God exists,” then they are able to carry on.

Meijer: Something else came up. This is, essentially, where the Dawkins Scale came from. We would get individuals who claim, “I am spiritual, but I am not religious,” which poses some very difficult and weird things. It doesn’t really fit in.

There was a lot of debate on it, among the leadership. As well, we posed this to our community in establishing it. Where is that line to allow somebody? Where is it when somebody is spiritual, in the sense of “I have an acknowledgement and an appreciation for that around me, and being mindful,” versus, “I am spiritual because I like crystals”?

Jacobsen: [Laughing] yes, in some sense, some people just mean “communal.”

Raubenheimer: Some people do, yes. For instance, we have turned down people where it was clear that they did not follow any established religion, but then they were practicing Reiki and crystal healing. That’s why I mention it explicitly.

So far, where we have not picked up any red flags from the application, we seem to have picked them up during the interview.  Wynand, Wilhelm, Jani and Judith have been most dedicated in helping with the online interviews, which can take up to an hour each.

Another odd thing is those who seem to lose interest: I have about a dozen applicants who went to the trouble of putting in the application, which included two sample marriage ceremonies, and then doing the interview; now I cannot get them to give me the details we need for the Department of Home Affairs.  They just don’t respond to emails or WhatsApp messages, and don’t answer their phones.  I will probably have to lapse their applications.

Jacobsen: Returning to our subject, has there been any other formal opposition to SASS?

Raubenheimer: Not really.  That probably means that we have not made enough waves yet.

OGOD, which we discussed in an earlier interview, got a lot more publicity.

Our main opposition, although they don’t oppose us directly, would probably be the ironically-named “Freedom of Religion South Africa”, which gives them the catchy acronym of “FOR-South Africa”.  They are actually a right-wing Christian organisation, opposing secularism, abortion, same-sex marriage, and so on.

Amusingly, they ran a few “surveys” on their website on their issues.  Various atheist Facebook groups I participate in directed members to those surveys, and we roundly outvoted them on their own site, even though they worded things deceptively.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Rick and Wynand.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Mandisa 51 – December, 2019

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/01/12

Mandisa Thomas, a native of New York City, is the founder and President of Black Nonbelievers, Inc. Although never formally indoctrinated into belief, Mandisa was heavily exposed to Christianity, Black Nationalism, and Islam. As a child she loved reading, and enjoyed various tales of Gods from different cultures, including Greek and Ghanaian. “Through reading these stories and being taught about other cultures at an early age, I quickly noticed that there were similarities and differences between those deities and the God of the Christian Bible. I couldn’t help but wonder what made this God so special that he warrants such prevalence today,” she recalls.

Mandisa has many media appearances to her credit, including CBS Sunday MorningCNN.com, and Playboy, The Humanist, and JET magazines. She has been a guest on podcasts such as The Humanist Hour and Ask an Atheist, as well as the documentaries Contradiction and My Week in Atheism. Mandisa currently serves on the Board for American Atheists and the American Humanist Association, and previously for Foundation Beyond Belief, the 2016 Reason Rally Coalition, and the Secular Coalition for America. She is also an active speaker and has presented at conferences/conventions for the Freedom from Religion Foundation, Secular Student Alliance, and many others.

In 2019, Mandisa was the recipient of the Secular Student Alliance’s Backbone Award and named the Freedom from Religion Foundation’s Freethought Heroine. She was also the Unitarian Universalist Humanist Association’s Person of the Year 2018.

As the president of Black Nonbelievers, Inc., Mandisa encourages more Blacks to come out and stand strong with their nonbelief in the face of such strong religious overtones.

“The more we make our presence known, the better our chances of working together to turn around some of the disparities we face. We are NOT alone.”

Here, we talk about December, 2019 and some lighter activities.

*Interview conducted in early December, 2019.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: In December, with the Sunday Assembly, to wind down post-yachting was a community, what will be done?

Mandisa Thomas: [Laughing] yes, the month of December will be lighter for me after my trip to Phoenix to speak with Secular Coalition for Arizona and the Humanist Society of Greater Phoenix. 

Black Nonbelievers will host a special guest, Chris Cameron, who will be discussion his new book Black Freethinkers: A History of African American Secularism. And on the day recognized as Christmas, we will be hosting a secular celebration/potluck along with the Sunday Assembly Atlanta. 
This will be our third year hosting this event. The holidays tend to be quite challenging, especially for nonbelievers.

Oftentimes, many of us are dealing with religious family members, which can be very stressful and isolating. It is a nice way to engage those who need a break from their religious counterparts and are looking for a place – even if for a little while – to kick back, have a good time, get to know new people, and see some folks they may not have seen all year.

It is a good way to continue to build that community for those who need and want it. 

Jacobsen: Why is Christmas not an issue for this community effort in December? Where for others, it can be an issue. What is the dividing line there for you?

Thomas: Many humanists, atheists, and freethinkers recognize Christmas as, ultimately, a secular holiday. It has pagan roots; nothing about Christ included. However, it has become being very commercial, and the images of Santa are Eurocentric in nature. 

A lot of people will go into debt buying Christmas gifts for loved ones. I know there are some secularists who have an issue with that from a societal perspective. I think one of the reasons why the holiday season isn’t much of an issue for us in Atlanta is because many of us enjoy it.

Personally speaking, it is still a great way to be with family. Also, there are other holidays that people can celebrate. There is Human Light, Winter Solstice, Hanukkah (for the culturally Jewish) and Kwanzaa (primarily African American). We like being festive. We want to continue in that community celebration to, at least, bring people together in a positive manner.

It doesn’t always have to be downtrodden for us. We can turn that around and create new traditions. There’s no need to reinvent the wheel, and the communities we have established have been really helpful for us.

Jacobsen: Also, for some, hearing that, the idea Christian rooted in a pagan holiday, “What do you mean? This is not a pagan holiday. It is meant to celebrate our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.” Things of this sort. It can be jarring. What would be a response to many Americans who see Christmas as a purely religious and, therefore, non-secular celebration?

Thomas: Well, I always recommend that people do their research [Laughing]. It is important to understand the Christmas being rooted in the birth of Jesus Christ on December 25th is, in fact, borrowed from older religions whose gods were born on that particular day. All of them are fictional anyway.

I try to refer people to sources where they can read more on it themselves. Of course, people may choose to do what they want with that information, which is either continuing the celebration as they’ve been indoctrinated, or they can take it all into consideration and make revisions. Some do both. They do both Santa and Jesus, which I find odd. The history of the holiday is more rooted around gift-giving, food, and having a really good time. 

It is always good to incorporate education and information with celebration. Edutainment, the term that the great rapper KRS One coined, (also was the name of one of his albums) [Laughing]. I would recommend this for someone who is so hardcore in wanting to emphasize Jesus Christ and God during this holiday. 

Jacobsen: What are your opinions on the popularization of this holiday as marketing and salesmanship or salespersonship ploy in the United States, where it becomes about applying the biggest, newest, baddest toy someone can find

Thomas: Unlike what some people have said, particularly in the Black community – Black Friday,  is NOT about enslaved being sold. It is the time of the year where companies’ project their profits to go “in the black”. 

It is actually a boost to the economy. But again, it can have a down side, and I do think that Christmas has indeed become over-commercialized. 
While growing up, I recall that my mother stopped celebrating Christmas. Our household started celebrating Kwanzaa, which does incorporate gift giving, but not to the excessive point of Christmas. 

It can be overwhelming pressure for people to buy gifts that they cannot afford. There is also the reinforcement of guilt if you do not buy presents. Or if someone (mainly children) does not have a gift during the holidays, there is potential pressure and ridicule. 

I think that’s another reason why the holidays can be depressing for many folks. And it takes a strong will to resist that. 

Recognizing that part of the holiday while enjoying the Christmas lights, the celebrations, the gingerbread houses, food, etc. is very beautiful to me. I enjoy that very much.

Most people’s “spirits” tend to be joyous during this time of year. And I enjoy seeing people have a good time. While it is good to acknowledge the history and how polarizing it can be for some, it’s also good to partake in the festivities, and make the most of the season.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Mandisa.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Extensive Interview with Andrew James William Copson – President, Humanists International & Chief Executive, Humanists UK

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/01/12

“Andrew is Chief Executive of Humanists UK (formerly the British Humanist Association). He became Chief Executive in 2010 after five years coordinating Humanists UK’s education and public affairs work. Andrew is also President of Humanists International.

Together with A C Grayling, Andrew edited the Wiley Blackwell Handbook of Humanism (2015) and he is the author of Secularism: Politics, Religion, and Freedom (Oxford University Press, 2017) and Secularism: A Very Short Introduction (Oxford University Press, 2019). He has written on humanist and secularist for The Guardian, The Independent, The Times, and New Statesman as well as for various journals.

Andrew has represented Humanists UK and the humanist movement extensively on national television including on BBC, ITV, Channel 4, and Sky, as well as on programmes such as Newsnight, The Daily Politics, Sunday Morning Live, and The Big Questions.

He has also appeared on BBC radio programmes such as the Today programme, You and Yours, Sunday, The World Tonight, The World at One, The Last Word, and Beyond Belief as well as on other local and national commercial radio stations.

Andrew is a former director of the European Humanist Federation (EHF) and is currently a trustee of the International Humanist Trust. He has previously served as head of the Humanists International delegation to the Council of Europe in Strasbourg and has represented humanist organisations at the United Nations and the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE).

He has advised on humanism for the Qualifications and Curriculum Development Authority, the Department for Children, Schools, and Families, the BBC, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, and the Office for National Statistics. For ten years, Andrew was a member and then Chair of the Westminster Standing Advisory Council on Religious Education. He was a member of the Advisory Group for the Humanist Library at London’s Conway Hall and, in a previous post in the office of Lord Macdonald of Tradeston in the House of Lords, he provided the secretariat for the All Party Parliamentary Humanist Group (APPHG).

Andrew served for many years as a director and trustee of the Religious Education Council, the Values Education Council, and the National Council for Faiths and Beliefs in Further Education.

Andrew was born in Nuneaton. He studied Classics and Ancient and Modern History at the University of Oxford and was a member of the winning team of the 2005 Young Educational Thinker of the Year Programme. He is currently studying for an MBA at the University of Warwick.

Andrew is a Member of the Chartered Institute of Public Relations, a Fellow of the Chartered Management Institute, a Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts, and an Associate of the Centre for Law and Religion at Cardiff University.”

Source: https://andrewcopson.net/about/.

Here, we talk about news and updates in Humanism.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What is the most exciting thing happening for Humanists International aside from rebranding as IHEU?

Andrew Copson: [Laughing] I think one of the most exciting things is our growing impact and presence in the international institutions. This week, as we are discussing here, the second international ministerial on freedom of religion or belief is taking place in the U.S. in Washington, hosted by the United States government. Humanists International has been invited to participate in a couple of sessions. I think that new international recognition gained for humanism as a non-religious worldview and not just a negation of religion provides an opportunity for greater international presence.

In Europe, national humanist organizations are working with their governments in a respected partnership, not just protesting outside of their doors, but helping with policy formation and that is exciting regionally, but with Humanists International, the most exciting thing is the new access that we are getting in the human rights world.

Jacobsen: If we are looking at some of the campaigns, there has been some funding for Humanists At Risk. What are some instances of Humanists At Risk? How can people become involved in their locale and in terms of fundraising?

Copson: Humanists are at risk in an increasing number of countries. The rising persecution of humanists is something noted by the United Nations Special Rapporteur and by many national governments and NGOs.

Now, to some extent, there is a good news story hiding way underneath that fact, which is that humanists around the world are increasingly organizing. They are emerging in countries where they have never emerged before. They are speaking out in countries where they have never spoken before. They are putting their heads above the parapet in new ways in countries where that has not happened historically.

The downside to that is that they are immediately lined up for persecution. They are visible. They can be found. They can be chased. They can be effectively quashed. There is scarcely a country in Asia and Africa where either systemic discrimination or active persecution is not in place.

As you probably know, Humanists International produces an annual Freedom of Thought Report on every country in the world. It shows clearly that there are increasing instances of persecution and bias against humanists.

We all know the example of the Bangladeshi bloggers. Effectively, it is a death list or death target list created by Islamists leading to a great number of the humanist bloggers on the list being killed, even in countries where the bad situations are less likely for them, including India.

We see rising persecution for humanist activists over the last three years – murdered with impunity. We have vigilante lynching in Pakistan. People having to go underground in countries like Egypt or fleeing from Saudi Arabia.

What the Humanists At Risk project does, as part of Humanists International’s work, is provide direct case support to those people, now, there is a lot that individual humanists can do to stand in solidarity with their fellow humanists around the world.

Obviously, the most important thing is donating their money if they have anything that they can spare to support that work. If they have no funds but are in strategically positioned countries – like Nepal, for example – then they can help in getting people across the borders and to provide safe havens to people in the region.

If they are in Western European countries, especially if they worked with a humanist organization, they can provide training and support to humanist organizations in countries that are less stable. They can also arrange things like student visas for people who might be at risk of persecution and might need to escape their countries of origin.

It is a good idea for people to sign up as individual supporters of Humanists International. Individuals can sign up and get involved in our work and can volunteer to do that. They should do so.

Jacobsen: What about a prominent case of Gulalai Ismail? What is the status of it? How can individuals bring more coverage to it, in a respectful light?

Copson: Gulalai’s situation is, of course, extremely serious. She is a young woman who already has an impressive C.V. around human rights activism. She is an activist for self-determination regionally and for women and girls to run a program that trained Malala Yousafzai – who, of course, has come to international prominence as a human rights campaigner for the rights of girls and women.

Gulalai has been subject for a couple of years now to petty official harassment. However, this has escalated rapidly in the last year and a bit. When she arrived home in Pakistan from her last speaking engagement abroad in the UK with the governing Conservative Party conference at the end of last year, when she went back to Pakistan, she was immediately arrested.

Her passport was confiscated. She was placed on an Exit Control List. It is a list or mechanism to stop critics of the government from leaving the country, preventing the freedom of movement of people who leave the government voluntarily.

After many months of campaigning and hard work in Pakistan by her own team, her passport was restored to her. Her name was removed from the Exit Control list. She proceeded to fly for Canada. She had a speaking engagement. Her passport was currently in the Canadian High Commission.

She was speaking out mostly a couple of months ago about the lack of justice for crimes against young women on one case. A warrant was issued for her arrest. It is quite difficult at this distance to know the circumstances.

Although, we are in touch with her family and her sister in the United States. It is difficult to know why she is being pursued by the authorities, what their real motivation is. She has an accusation of blasphemy against her once before.

She successfully managed to defend herself against it. But she got such a broad range of activism on human rights issues. It is hard to know what the government is going after her for. The current situation is that she is in hiding.

Her family is in hiding. They cannot leave their house. They are now threatened with imprisonment and with arbitrary torture that Pakistan enforces. What we’re trying to do at the moment is raise awareness of her case with Western governments and other governments in the region to the Pakistani government to prevent this unfair and arbitrary treatment of her, and to allow her to leave the country, it is very difficult to know what the situation on the ground is right now.

[Ed. Subsequent to this interview, Gulalai escaped to the U.S.]

Jacobsen: In Iceland, there was an addition of a significant number of organizations into the Humanists International MO listing. It was a significant growth. What was the reaction, internally, to this massive growth? What were the regions of emphasis for more growth than others?

Copson: Recently, we have been prioritizing certain global regions for growth. We have established a new growth and development program under our growth and development officer Giovanni, who has been working for us for a couple of years now.

He has managed that program incredibly capably with additional funding from generous donors and from MOs including Norway and the UK. We have established quite a substantial growth and development fund to move organizations – even from before becoming organizations as groups of people who want to create some humanist movement in their country on the ground – from the emergent beginnings to the state of an organizational development where they can stand together as a cohesive organization in their country.

One of the things that we have done with this growth and development program is prioritize some regions including Latin America and Africa. So, it was very gratifying to see new organizations come from those regions.

Hopefully, in the next couple of years, they will be joined by just a large of a group or more groups from Asia, which is a future priority. This is something that happened. In the last 70 years, Humanists International went from an almost white Western European or Anglo, or American and Western European organization to being genuinely global.

We have members from every continent. We have member organizations from every region in the world. This reflects the growth of humanism globally as a way of looking at the world and approaching life, but also the hard work of Humanists International – who themselves have grown over the last couple of years. 

Jacobsen: What about some of these grant programs that Humanists International is running now? What have been prominent cases? What have been some benefits to some of those involved in them?

Copson: I think the best overall scheme that has been running is this Café Humaniste, which is a way of stimulating organization or bringing people into the same place in a less formal way than we have in the past.

In the 1950s when the International Humanist and Ethical Union, which is Humanists International’s former name, there was this almost 19th century feeling in which there needed in every country to have an organization with a constitution and a chair, and well-governed rules. Then over time, they would be federated into a sort of global union. That model never really applied to more than a few organizations. Like I said, those in Western Europe. It, certainly, does not apply to things today when things are much more networked than they were in the past.

Today, we have been trying to stimulate things in terms of organization in terms of the connections between people and the connections between organizations internationally. One of the things that we have done, recently, is this Café Humaniste project.

We used to provide funding so people could get their organizations going: training in rules, how to have management, and so on. Now, we stimulate  activities like this. They can get together. They can discuss certain topics. This has been quite productive.

That, I think, has been the most effective use of growth and development money so far. We are still open for bids for that sort of money. They next thing that is of a piece with this idea in seeing the global humanist movement as a network as Humanists International’s role in strengthening those connections.

The idea is regional hubs in which you could have regional hubs for funding some standout activity that can be visible best practice for everyone else in the area. This has worked in Latin America. They have not only spread personal context in the region and build those up.

But also, examples of what has worked for some groups and other groups in their early stages can work from. In Guatemala, they really managed to spread some good ideas across the region. It does not take much money from Humanists International’s point of view to get those things going.

Jacobsen: In our prior contacts, in terms of publications last year [Ed. 2018], it was April 1st in Canadian Atheist. We did a short interview. Then on April 7th [Ed. 2018] in The Good Men Project, we covered some of the history of humanism work that you have presented on and written on.

Copson: Did we? You are very prolific, aren’t you?

Jacobsen: [Laughing] if we are looking at the early 21st century, who are some individuals who stand out in the humanist tradition, or who may not identify formally as humanist but, certainly, harbour humanistic values, principles, and ideals?

Copson: I think it is far too early to say that if you want to take a historical view.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Copson: Do you mean politicians or people in the world?

Jacobsen: Within the framework of the interview and the position today in Humanists International, I am framing globally. So, for instance, if we look at Humanist Canada, one of the first patrons was Bertrand Russell.

Copson: Oh really?

Jacobsen: Yes, often, people point to him. This is in the 20th century. Often, the early part of the 20th century. If we are looking at the 21st century, maybe, we could look to people who are doing good work in their respective countries for the work through, for instance, Aware Girls with Gulalai with women’s and girls’ rights.

Copson: Those are the people who we have given international awards to, in the last few years. Gulalai Ismail received Humanist of the Year. Narendra Nayak received Humanist of the Year. I think the work that activists against superstition in India are doing extremely important work from that view.

You are looking for grassroots people.

Jacobsen: Yes.

Copson: I suppose the thinker equivalent are people like Stephen Pinker or A.C. Grayling. Narendra and Gulalai are stand-up people. The 2014 World Humanist Congress had such amazing presentations from people who ran grassroots organizations, humanist organizations, in so many different countries in Uganda, Nigeria, or Ghana.

I think they would be the sort of heroes or unsung heroes that you are talking about. Otherwise, only time can tell. Don’t you think? Of course, Bertrand Russell was a legend in his own lifetime. We might have to wait a bit longer for others like that.

Jacobsen: What books have you been reading?

Copson: I have been mostly reading novels because I have been on holiday, including the latest by Madeline Miller, Circe. She wrote a wonderful reimagining of the Achilles story a few years ago and this latest novel from her is just as good. Other than that, it’s just trashy detective novels. I am afraid.

Jacobsen: [Laughing] if we’re looking at the advancements of humanism, as science advances, as societies develop, as we get new intellectuals, new books, new lectures, new framings of different topics within the aegis of humanism as a general worldview, life stance, and philosophy, what have been some interesting, or at least intriguing, proposals or developments in the Humanists International community?

Copson: I think some of the most challenging questions have been those raised by Stephen Pinker’s recent books, where he is attempting to defend the idea of progress and enlightenment – as a real phenomenon. I think that what is really interesting, to me, about that is some self-described humanists in the Western world saying, “Oh! This is outrageous.” And somewhat decrying the idea of progress. Then you see other humanists predominantly from Africa or Asia, but also, I think, to some extent Latin America or the global south in general with whom his books have resonated, saying, “Of course, progress is possible. It is part of the humanist agenda. It is what we stand for.”

That tension between the optimistic and not-so optimistic has been an interesting, not fault line as yet, but a potential fault line for humanists internationally. I think that is been interesting.

I think there has been an interesting tail end to the New Atheism where people in the liberal, Western world say, “This is over the top and aggressive now. We should all calm down now. We should be more courteous, and not, potentially, whip up hostile feelings towards minorities living in Western countries.” On the other hand, again, in the global south, they are energized by this new intellectual radicalism and iconoclastic approach of people like Richard Dawkins. It is another interesting tension that exists in the world.

Jacobsen: What region in the world probably has the longest road to go in terms of the advancement of humanist values?

Copson: The Arab world – obviously, we cannot stereotype the whole of the Arab world – but the Gulf region is so far from this, at the elite level anyway. There are also countries with things going backwards like Russia and China. Then there are countries in which progress might be occurring beneath the radar, but you are not quite sure. That is many countries in the Arab world. Old orders are very – although, they look robust – much more fragile than they appear. Populations have begun to become connected to the outside world, especially through the English language.

That great secularizing force of Anglo culture, which just spills out wherever English is spoken increasingly. The Arab world might surprise us. It would be – not amusing but – funny if the Arab world became a more humanist region before China.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Copson: It could happen. Places like China and Russia are going backwards.

Jacobsen: If we take some of the issues for and opposition to the humanist community globally, what are the opposition and issues?

Copson: There are several tendencies that stand against humanism and the growth of humanist values globally. One, obviously, is the oldest one, which is religion – especially, of course, more extreme manifestations of religion, whether that is in the Islamic world or in global Protestant NGOs or in the global reach of the Catholic Church.

All three of those forces in their own quite different ways stand against either liberal values or human rights, or equality of people or human beings of different types. It is the same as it ever was in terms of the source of opposition to humanism.

There is also a rising ethnic nationalism, which is against humanist values in a different way. It is a cultural conservatism that puts the idea of progressive aspects of the humanist vision in jeopardy. I think particularly in the Western world, but also in Russia and Middle and Eastern Europe, and the United States, and in some Western European countries where this idea of peculiar traditional values, or cultural values, as opposed to universal human rights, is gaining ground. Wherever that idea gains ground, the humanist idea that universal human rights should be the basis of that  sort of discussion, that we are one species, that it is possible to answer the question, “What is a good human life?” in a universal way rather than in a culturally specific way – all that is in jeopardy as those movements or trends gain ground. That would be the one to watch.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Andrew.

Copson: Thank you!

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Takudzwa 20 – The Outside World

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/01/11

Takudzwa Mazwienduna is the informal leader of Zimbabwean Secular Alliance and a member of the Humanist Society of Zimbabwe. This educational series will explore secularism in Zimbabwe from an organizational perspectiveand some more.

Here we talk about communication and the outside world.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Often, in the WhatsApp group, of which I am a part, there is commentary and reference to secular relevant events outside of Zimbabwe. How does this show the commonality of the experiences and troubles experienced for humanists around the world?

Takudzwa Mazwienduna: Contemporary issues affecting secularism and humanism around the world more often than not relate to our own experience as Zimbabwean Humanists and Secularists. They inspire us and the thought that we are not alone is consoling.

Jacobsen: What’s the importance of humour in commentary on stupidity, non-sense, and cruelty on the part of mostly religious hierarchs?

Mazwienduna: Humor and ridicule in such instances usually influences emotional responses that can shutter cognitive dissonance or faulty ways of thinking. The more a faulty idea is ridiculed, the less popular it becomes.

Jacobsen: Have you considered other safe communications methods including Signal and Telegram?

Mazwienduna: We do have a telegram group. Most people however prefer using WhatsApp because there are cheaper internet bundles given by service providers for it. Signal on the other hand is not so popular in Sub Saharan Africa, very few people have heard of it.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Takudzwa.

Mazwienduna: It’s always a pleasure Scott!

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Interview with Vince Hawkins – Author on Secular AA

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/01/10

Vince Hawkins is a writer and published author on Secular AA.

Here, we talk about his life, work, views.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What is family background, e.g., geography, culture, language, and religion or lack thereof?

Vince Hawkins: I was brought up in Kent in the south of England as the eldest of three boys by a former Regimental Quartermaster Sergeant who was at the battle of Alamein in the 8th army – a desert rat – and a grammar school / land army girl from Wiltshire. My parents devoted their resources to the family and my own cultural seeds were sown by the English grammar school system. At school I studied Advanced Level English, History and Art, but left home at 17 before sitting the exams to avoid parental control over my drinking. Religious background was Church of England. How could the product of a King of England’s lust for a young girl be taken seriously? One can have any belief or none in the church of England. It provided me with a tiny income as a choirboy, supplemented by a paper round and, later, supplanted by a more lucrative window-cleaning round. My parents allowed me to make my own decision as a young teenager about being ‘confirmed’ and I opted out. I could always apply more serious consideration later.

Jacobsen: Following from the last question, how have these factors influenced personal life and views?

Hawkins: I suppose self-reliance was the big factor. Some things seemed to be lucky or unlucky like a roll of the dice. Others seemed to be the product of hard work and applying one’s talents which, in my case, was an ability to write. After my first job, spending a summer at a holiday camp, I went to London where I became a financial journalist. Later I worked for stockbrokers and banks writing reports on commercial sectors and companies’ share price prospects. I once turned down a job on the Daily Telegraph because it was for a temporary summer appointment and at the time I had a permanent job on a magazine. When I found out this was a common route to a permanent newspaper job I thought my decision could have been an unlucky one. But by my late 20s I was writing freelance for The Times, Financial Times, Telegraph and Irish Independent and still had the magazine job when a stockbroking company doubled my income in a trice, taking me on as a gold mining investment analyst. From this point there was a long downward slide until I was 48 and stopped drinking. Since then there has been a recovery in my  fortunes. Some would say a ‘miraculous’ recovery, but not me. At the time I was deputy editor on a trade magazine based in a provincial town, basically running the creche containing young aspiring journalists who needed knocking into shape. Three months after I stopped drinking I wrote to a company in London that produced business reports on retail sectors, saying that I could contribute to its success. I was hired as managing editor to run the production half of the company; the other half being the sales function run by the sales director. Later I went self employed and continued the editorial function at this company but added freelance journalism as well. It was as though the last 20 years hadn’t happened. There had been a lot of fun moments, but the darker side had got much worse towards the end when my second wife said: “I’d rather you didn’t comeback to the house until you’ve done something about your drinking.” It was a life-saver. I would have been dead in six months.   

Jacobsen: What is the essence of addiction, e.g., alcoholism? How does this provide an explanatory framework for the comprehension of the issues facing numerous members of every community?

Hawkins: No control over the consumption/habit. Can I quote from one of my books Everyone’s an Addict: For the inquisitive drinker asking the question ‘Am I an alcoholic?’ the question is: Do you have trouble stopping drinking once you have started? If so, you are most likely an alcoholic. Is it the same for you with drugs, eating, gambling or violent behavior? Did you indulge in it when your intentions were dead set against it? Do you have other disorders around eating, like bulimia? Is sex something that preoccupies you unduly? Do you have behavioral problems in other directions such as anger, over-dependence on other people, hiding away from the world, lying, bullying and so on? Sometimes it is a multiple problem and the prime addiction needs to be identified.

Addicts themselves can gain comprehension of what they face by joining a 12-step program, taking a course in a clinic, or joining alternative self-help organisations like SMART Recovery. If you are asking how non-addicts can gain comprehension of the issues, it is extremely difficult for them to put themselves into the shoes of the addict, but there are some rules to follow like; Don’t enable the addict in any way. Don’t obtain their substances for them. Don’t clear up after them. Make them face the consequences of their actions. This may bring them to the point of helping themselves earlier than would otherwise have happened. But if it gets too much there must be ‘detachment with love’ to save the relative or partner from unbearable unnecessary anguish. There are organisations that help non-addicts affected by addiction such as Al-Anon, an organisation parallel to Alcoholics Anonymous (AA). 

Most 12-step programs have a list of questions that an addict can use to identify themselves. In AA if you answer yes to as few as three questions, you have a problem. Here are the questions in Narcotics Anonymous (NA): Do you ever use alone? Have you ever substituted one drug for another, thinking that one particular drug was the problem? Have you ever manipulated or lied to a doctor to obtain prescription drugs? Have you ever stolen drugs or stolen to obtain drugs? Do you regularly use a drug when you wake up or when you go to bed? Have you ever taken one drug to overcome the effects of another? Do you avoid people or places that do not approve of you using drugs? Have you ever used a drug without knowing what it was or what it would do to you? Has your job or school performance ever suffered from the effects of your drug use? Have you ever been arrested as a result of using drugs? Have you ever lied about what or how much you use? Do you put the purchase of drugs ahead of your financial responsibilities? Have you ever tried to stop or control your using? Have you ever been in a jail, hospital, or drug rehabilitation center because of your using? Does using interfere with your sleeping or eating? 

Does the thought of running out of drugs terrify you? Do you feel it is impossible for you to live without drugs? Do you ever question your own sanity? Is your drug use making life at home unhappy? Have you ever thought you couldn’t fit in or have a good time without drugs? Have you ever felt defensive, guilty, or ashamed about your using? Do you think a lot about drugs? Have you had irrational or indefinable fears? Has using affected your sexual relationships? Have you ever taken drugs you didn’t prefer? Have you ever used drugs because of emotional pain or stress? Have you ever overdosed on any drugs? Do you continue to use despite negative consequences? Do you think you might have a drug problem?

Jacobsen: As an atheist, how does this present a problem for standard AA content, especially at the time of its founding? 

Hawkins: The founders of AA were deeply influenced by a Christian group called the Oxford Movement. A peculiar aspect of this movement was that it called itself non-religious when what it really meant was that it was non-denominational – a ruse to maximise membership. The group’s members were meant to walk in the footsteps of Jesus Christ. Forgive me, another quote: Founded by American Christian missionary Frank Buchanan in 1921, his basic tenet was that at the root of man’s problems were fear and selfishness. The solution was to surrender to God’s plan. The Oxford Group was  a social gathering seeking to be led by a Christian God, building on the work of Jesus. Participants should share their thoughts and test their intentions against honesty, purity, unselfishness and love. However, when the founders of AA met, Bill Wilson explained two non-Oxford ideas to Bob: that he had kept himself off drink by trying to help others, and that he believed alcoholism was a disease instead of a sin. Then Dr Bob stopped drinking, too. From its Christian roots the Oxford Group is now an informal, international network of people of many faiths and backgrounds seeking world peace. Now known as Initiatives of Change, it encourages the involvement of participants in political and social issues. One of the Oxford Group’s core ideas was that change of the world starts with seeking change in oneself. While AA also acknowledges the importance of change, ironically this does not apply to its basic textbook.
So Christian members of AA see a belief in god as essential to treating alcoholism successfully. This leads to plainly dishonest practices such as advising non-believers to “fake it to make it”. The idea is that new non-believing members will eventually come to believe in a god and so, save themselves. It is no less than religious conversion, missionary work on the side. These religious nutters effectively expel members who refuse to accept their god ideas. Can you blame any atheist addict for refusing help from the likes of these nuts?

Jacobsen: How does a secular point of view provide room for accommodation of the inclusion of religious content in the methodologies, for the religious?

Hawkins: Thanks for the opportunity to plug my books. They are not the only secular books for addicts, of course, but my other two are: An Atheists Unofficial Guide to AA and An Atheists 12 Steps to Self-improvement. All three of my books re-write the 12 steps for the non-religious. They encourage addicts to construct their own individual programs with the help of more experienced members and, eventually, to re-write their own version of the steps. Also, being an atheist does not exclude a spiritual side as some religious members claim. There is a spiritual aspect to members having a special understanding with each other of their shared problem. And it is easy to name “greater powers” that are not gods. They just have to be something bigger than oneself to help keep ego down to a “right” size. Examples might be evolution, energy, the universe and so on. 

In no way are religious members excluded from this process. When I look at the science of addiction I use the conclusions of a professor I met at a convention. He said that the key to the door of treating addiction and producing a healthy human of use to others was abstention. A belief in god was not a requirement, though it helped addicts of a religious bent. In AA, each meeting is autonomous so secular and standard Christian meetings can be accommodated in the same organisation. Religious members are welcome at secular meetings but after completion of the 12 steps, in whatever kind of meeting, members are supposed to help others, first other addicts and then other people in the wider world. At that stage, say after a couple of years, I think religious people will find it difficult to help the atheists or agnostics because preaching is definitely not a part of any AA meeting. It is completely beside the point of treating addictions. Having said that, there are plenty of other places in which to exercise their religions.     

Look at it another way. Until the recent mushrooming of secular AA meetings (more than 500 now), atheists who attended standard meetings had to find their own way by constructing a DIY program that shut out the religion and absorbed all the good stuff that was left. Other 12-step addiction programs are much less religiously orientated than AA so the problem is not as marked. 

But in AA, for religious members in a secular meeting, they will simply think of god as their greater power and, hey presto, the meeting will work for them, too. We find that they don’t have to bang on about god all the time, though, like religious members in some ‘standard’ meetings. 

Jacobsen: How does being an atheist gives a better, more scientific and naturalistic, account of dealing with addictions? 

Hawkins: I think you’ve just made the point yourself there, Scott

Jacobsen: What are some of the main nuggets of advice for those who have alcoholic family members/friends or have succumbed to alcoholism themselves?

Hawkins: For the non-addicts, it is don’t enable the drinker. Don’t buy drink for them. Make them face the consequences of their own actions. Don’t phone up work for them. 

For the alcoholic, get treatment in a clinic or at an AA meeting, or both. If you try to stop on your own it’s a miserable existence.  

Jacobsen: Who are some recommended speakers, authors, or organizations?

Hawkins: Go to conventions from your earliest time in a 12-step or other addiction treatment organisation. You will always find a speaker or two, or many more, that you like. And the camaraderie is tremendously uplifting. I don’t know if I would have found the amateur live podcasters on Facebook of interest when I first started but, sorry, now that I have a few years under my belt I find them so full of pretentious claptrap.

I only promote my own books on my website vincehawkins.com but provide links to other sites that do recommend many others:  

AA Agnostica is a treasure trove of secular literature, regular articles and information for recovering atheists, agnostics and freethinkers. (Type ‘Everyone’s an Addict’ or ‘Guide to AA’ under SEARCH FOR ARTICLES and click on the relevant picture.)  aaagnostica.org

AA Beyond Belief is a continually growing library of podcasts and sound recordings in the secular genre. It also invites submission of articles. (Click ‘literature’ and scroll down to An Atheists Unofficial Guide to AA.)    https://aabeyondbelief.org

ICSAA, the International Convention of Secular AA has been held three times to date, at two-yearly intervals, in Santa Monica 2014, Austin 2016 and Toronto 2018. The next one will be in Washington DC in 2020. (Click ‘secular aa/links’/scroll down to click on ‘Vince Hawkins’.) secularaa.com 

Rebellion Dogs Publishing is an online magazine for, and about, the secular AA community in printed and sound formats. (click ‘Reading Room’ and scroll down to the Amazon link for An Atheists Unofficial Guide to AA.) rebelliondogspublishing.com

Secular AA is a constituent of Alcoholics Anonymous. It runs ICSAA and has its own website with a list of secular AA meetings and its own resources for members. (Click on ‘Links’ and scroll down to click on ‘Vince Hawkins’.) secularaa.org

A word of warning on clinics. The ones that are set up like five-star hotels can provide a very comfortable detox but may be more interested in seeing you for another detox later, rather than treating your addiction. I get the strong impression that the ones that are set up like boot camps are far more effective. You can look up 12-step organisations online, and I list them in my books, and there are non-12-step organisations like SMART Recovery that you can also look up online. Where organisations have incomplete geographical coverage, they often run meetings online. 

Jacobsen: Any final feelings or thoughts in conclusion?

Hawkins: Atheists are ‘coming out’ in AA, just as gays did a while ago and I’m so pleased about the global march away from religion. Another issue that remains under the carpet is overpopulation. How much more sensible it would be to give sex education and free condoms to everyone on the planet rather than listen to the non-contraception mantra of the Catholic church. Addicts need to be selfish at first to get well, but then they can turn their minds to saving the planet. Can I repeat my favourite quote? It is from Einstein: “To help each other. That is the answer to the question ‘why are we here’? ” 

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Vince.

Hawkins: No, it’s my pleasure, thanks very much to you, Scott.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Interview with Larry Bode – Choir Organizer, Greater Manchester Humanist Choir

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/01/07

Larry Bode is the Choir Organizer for the Greater Manchester Humanist Choir. This is an interesting depiction of the admixture of the arts and humanities and a secular life philosophy (Humanism).

Here, we talk about his life, work, views.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What is family background, e.g., geography, culture, language, education, and religion or lack thereof?

Larry Bode: I am the eldest of two boys born to ‘lower middle class’ parents in a leafy Cheshire suburb of South Manchester. My mother, especially, insisted on impeccable manners and behaviour. Our somewhat strict upbringing probably awakened a rebellious spirit within me. Religion was not high on the family’s agenda.

We occasionally attended Sunday School and our mother would take us either to the local Anglican or United Reform Church on special days in the Christian calendar. The weather dictated which church we attended; if it was raining, we would go to the nearer United Reform church. I was fortunate to pass the ‘11 plus’ examination and therefore enrolled at the prestigious local state Grammar School for Boys which had an outstanding academic record.

I was only the second member of both sides of the family to go on to University. On leaving University I pursued a career in Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery.

Jacobsen: What is personal background including the discovery or development of a secular outlook on life and philosophy?

Bode: At school, I hated sports. A childhood illness of poliomyelitis meant that my sporting prowess was somewhat limited. I particularly hated cross-country running. I just could not understand what the point of it was. Along with a few like-minded boys, I would run just out of sight and wait there until we felt it was appropriate to return to base.

Three or four of us would congregate beneath an oak tree and discuss the meaning of life. I remember vividly showering after ‘exercising’ when one of my peers shouted: ‘Bode!’ (in my traditional school none of us had first names). ‘Bode! You’re a Humanist’. This was the first time I had heard the word ‘Humanist.’

I was fifteen. I consulted various books and my colleague was indeed correct. I was a Humanist. I wanted to share the humanist worldview with others, so wrote an article for the school magazine. It was titled “Humanism…..intellectual twaddle?” Shortly after publication, the father of a first-year pupil contacted me and invited me to join a local Humanist discussion group.

Singing at the Sheldonian Theatre Oxford at the 2014 World Humanist Congress.

Jacobsen: As the Choir Organiser for the Greater Manchester Humanist Choir, what tasks and responsibilities come with the position?

Bode: In 2013, following the success of the London Humanist Choir (formerly the British Humanist Choir), it was thought worthwhile setting up a Humanist Choir in the North West of England. Having difficulty uttering the word “no,” I agreed to oversee the administration of choir activities. Duties include engagement of musical directors, attracting new members, finding suitable and affordable practice spaces, and keeping a lookout for opportunities to perform. I also deal with the finances.

Jacobsen: Many see “choir” and assume “religious choir” or “spiritual music.” What is the status of the humanist music genre? Who were the first pioneers in humanist music or, at least, humanistic music?

Bode: I must say that when I first heard that there was a Humanist choir based in London. I thought the concept was a bit odd. I thought it would be a parody of a religious choir. It is not. On reflection, I realized that there are many types of choirs that have no religious connotations e.g. blues choirs, pop choirs, male voice choirs, and so forth.

Perhaps, a choir dedicated to Humanism was not so odd. In the UK, there are currently 3 Humanist choirs that I am aware of. I understand the hope is that further choirs will spring up. Music with Humanist sentiments has been around since time immemorial. For example, we enjoy singing a Karl Kramer arrangement of Seikilos Epitaph which is said to be the oldest piece of music for which we have both the words (Ancient Greek) and musical notation. This dates from around the 1st century CE. The rough translation is: Be joyous and dance and seize the day. We are only here until we are gone. And time demands to be paid. This is in keeping with the Humanist ideal that we should aim for happiness in the one life we have.

More singing at the Sheldonian Theatre Oxford at the 2014 World Humanist Congress.

Jacobsen: What principles and values undergird humanist choir music? In other words, much of the classical music may have religious content, which, in some sense, may have interpretations as humanistic, or simply religious music performed by a humanist community of singers. Nonetheless, I wonder as to an expert on the nature of humanist music and humanist choir performances. Same tools of musicology and the same theory behind it, but different sensibilities and different interpretations (if not creations) of music.

Bode: Our Humanist choir’s repertoire is influenced by many different musical genres. Essentially the lyrics often refer to the many aspects of the human condition; love, joy, mutual caring, loneliness and so on. A few examples follow. ‘Imagine’ by John Lennon is popular with Humanist/Atheist audiences especially with the words ‘and no religion too’. We are happy singing the Jewish ‘Shalom Havayreem’ -‘Glad Tidings we bring of Peace on Earth’. The Shakespeare sonnet ‘Fear No More’ provides the lyrics for a beautiful arrangement by William Morris. This piece was specially commissioned by the British Humanist Association. ‘If I can dream’ by Walter Earl Brown was popularized by Elvis Presley and takes the famous Martin Luther King ‘I have a Dream’ speech as its inspiration. ‘All Things Dull and Ugly’ a Monty Python parody on the hymn ‘All Things Bright and Beautiful’ is a popular item in any Greater Manchester Humanist concert. ‘Streets of London’ by Ralph McTell is a contemporary folk song which asks, ‘How can you tell me you’re lonely’ and relates the dire straits of the London homeless and dispossessed. Just a few examples from our repertoire.

Jacobsen: How large in the Greater Manchester Humanist Choir? What are the demographics of the Greater Manchester Humanist Choir?

Bode: We are a small choir of around 8 to 10 members. We have members spanning a wide range of ages (20 to 70 years old). Despite our hard efforts it has proven difficult to recruit new members. We are working on this problem.

Jacobsen: What makes the Greater Manchester Humanist Choir unique in its dynamics and performance style compared to other choirs of the area?

Bode: This is a difficult one to answer. I suppose the very name ‘Humanist Choir’ is intriguing. Apart from the choir’s aim of producing entertaining performances we hope to encourage discussion and thought about Humanism. We hope the choir stimulates an interest in Humanism and perhaps our audiences might be inspired to investigate further the concepts of Humanism.

Jacobsen: Where has the Greater Manchester Humanist Choir performed in the past? Who have been distinguished performers or guest-listeners to performances of the Greater Manchester Humanist Choir?

Bode: We have performed at local and national Humanist gatherings. We have been invited to sing at Sunday Assembly meetings. Sunday Assembly is a non-religious organization meeting to celebrate life with songs, readings and words of wisdom. We have also sung in Unitarian chapels as part of Sunday services. (Curiously I am also a Unitarian lay preacher who likes to give a Humanist take on life; I am often surprised how accepted my atheist views are). At Christmas, the choir sings at the Manchester Christmas Markets and raises money for charitable organizations. Our proudest performance was singing at the 2014 World Humanist Congress which took place in Oxford. We sang in the 17th century Sheldonian Theatre in front of an audience of around 900 which included many world-renowned Humanist leaders.

Jacobsen: Who are some humanist composers to listen to now?

Bode: We particularly like the humorous but often profound songs of the Australian Tim Minchin. Songs such as ‘White wine in the Sun’, ‘Thank you, God’ and, ‘Pope Song’, are popular but somewhat irreverent.’

Jacobsen: Any final feelings or thoughts in conclusion?

Bode: I feel the concept of a Humanist Choir is in its infancy. We have much to learn. The London Humanist Choir is already making great strides and we hope to follow their example. Thanks for asking me to talk about the Greater Manchester Humanist Choir. It is been a pleasure speaking to you.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Larry.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Interview with Patrick Gray – Secretary, The Radical Party

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/01/06

Patrick Gray is the Secretary of The Radical Party. The rendering of secular orientations into political life may be the more important, in practical terms, parts of enacting secular philosophies.

Here, we talk about his life, work, views.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Why was The Radical Party formed?

Patrick Gray: The Radical Party was established to define and promote a fresh, social market vision for the British left of centre, which has virtually disappeared from sight as the Labour Party has fallen under the influence of old style, Marxist inspired, socialism. The Party believes that growing inequality is fundamental to the social ills facing our country and that tackling it demands not just a redistribution of wealth, but also of power through electoral reform (something the Labour Party is unwilling to endorse). This puts the Party firmly in the tradition of the British Radical Movement, which has campaigned to bring about greater equality and individual freedom for much of the last two hundred years.

The efforts of those who followed in the footsteps of the founders of Radicalism helped make Britain, after the war, one of the most democratic and economically egalitarian societies in the world, with laws which provided an effective safety net for the less well off in housing, health care and employment rights. As such, Britain fitted into a group of nations including Germany, Canada, the Netherlands, Sweden and Denmark, which combined social market economies with strong democratic institutions and labour legislation. But with the Labour Government of the time crippled by internal disputes and chaotic industrial relations, all that ended abruptly with the election in 1979 of Mrs Thatcher, who came to power armed with a ready-made, neo-conservative agenda imported lock stock and barrel from Ronald Reagan’s US Republican Party.

Since then, the foundations of social Britain have been eroded by successive Conservative Governments, while the Labour Party has oscillated between adopting much of Mrs Thatcher’s agenda under Tony Blair and periods promoting old-style socialism, which no longer has much resonance with working people. As a result, Britain has become a laboratory for policies championed by the Reagan, Trump and those around them. This change has now been crystalized though the decision to leave the European Union, following intense campaigning by the right-wing press motivated by the aim of disengaging the UK from social Europe and integrating our economy with US capitalism.            

Jacobsen: How does that change the character of politics in the United Kingdom?

Gray: The decision to leave the EU and the election of Boris Johnson, a right-wing conservative, as Prime Minister with a huge majority in December 2019 has profoundly altered the shape of British politics. This has come about because of our first-past-the post electoral system and the bone-headed tribalism of the leaders of the established progressive parties, who refused to work together to achieve real influence over our future.  With an 85 seat majority in Parliament, the Conservatives can now happily ignore the 56% of the electorate who voted against them and continue their long-term drive to reshape society in the interests of big business and the better off. Granted that they are virtually certain to be in opposition until at least 2024, the question for progressives must be what can be done in the meanwhile to prevent the Conservatives consolidating their hold on power for a second five years? Certainly, some sort of alliance to bring about electoral reform will be essential, but so too will be a clear intellectual alternative to neo-conservatism, which at the moment is sorely lacking. In the Radical Party, we believe that such a vision should reflect a modern social market economy along the lines of countries such as Finland and Sweden, which have very successfully combined democratic institutions, egalitarianism and a prosperous market economy. 

Jacobsen: Does an understanding of causes of the collapse of the Soviet Union help to identify solutions to the problem of increasing inequality facing ordinary people in Britain and other Western countries?

Gray: It is important to remember that the Soviet Union emerged from a society that was profoundly different from those of Western Europe and North America. Until 1861, almost 40% of the population of Russia were serfs, who could be bought and sold like slaves, and the lives of the people in Russia were tightly controlled by the Orthodox Church and in the future Southern Republics by Islam. Communism triumphed because many millions of people believed that it would bring them freedom, dignity and prosperity. Their hopes were betrayed because Marxist doctrine became a straightjacket and did not reflect fundamental features of human nature, such as the desire for autonomy and the right to be different, to better oneself and to take one’s own decisions as to how one’s children are brought up. And then of course, the whole system became fossilised and dependent for its survival on a huge repressive structure designed to deny the public access to just the kind of new ideas and information which would have been essential if the system were ever to evolve.  So, one clear lesson from the demise of the Soviet Union is that a plural media and free exchange of information will be essential if we are to build a dynamic, democratic and open society. This, of course, is extremely relevant in Britain, where and we have just emerged from a disastrous campaign to divorce the UK from our friends and allies in Europe and where 80% of the newspapers that are affordable for people on modest incomes are controlled by six right-wing billionaires.     

Jacobsen: In Canadian society, there is growing discussion around gender equality, even among ordinary people. How does the Radical Party orient itself around such issues?

Gray: We recognise that many elements in society are involved in the ongoing struggle against discrimination and in favour of full equality, and these objectives are central to our aims. The demand for full equality in terms of gender, ethnicity and belief goes right back to the origins of Radicalism and developed through the 19th century in the campaign to abolish restrictions in public life and education on people of Catholic and Jewish religion. In the UK, as in Canada and other parts of the World, the last few decades have seen an enormous change in attitudes, which has opened the way to important legislative reforms. Who would have thought, even a few years ago, that a Conservative Prime Minister, David Cameron, would be instrumental in carrying though legislation to permit gay marriage? Popular campaigns and a positive approach from the BBC, in particular, have played a very important role in changing public attitudes and the legislative changes are now pretty much entrenched. The challenge now is to ensure that the law is enforced effectively, not least in areas of life where forms of discrimination (such as denying young people freedom in their choice of life partner), are still widespread and are defended by many religious leaders.

Jacobsen: When you’re looking at the history of the Radical Movement in the United Kingdom, who have been some bright lights in it?

Gray: In the early days, Charles James Fox played a big part in the campaign against the slave trade and for freedom of belief; Mary Wolstenholme championed the rights of women; and Tom Paine opposed colonialism and fought for civil rights for all. More recently, those engaged in the women’s suffrage movement were part of the same drive to bring about real democracy and equal rights through constitutional change, which is at the core of what the Radical Party stands for.

Jacobsen: Do you think income inequality is the centrepiece for many derivative problems that we see around much of the West?

Gray: Yes, particularly in Britain, which has diverged sharply from international best practice over the last 40 years. Indeed, on some measures the UK is now the third most unequal of the major OECD member states after the United States and Singapore. This remarkable change has largely come about as a result of piecemeal changes, whose significance was not properly recognized at the time, even by politicians. The removal from elected local government bodies of the means to provide social housing, the adoption of the US system of tuition-fee funded higher education, cuts in public support for poorer people in the justice system, the soaring prison population are all examples of how both main parties have progressively eroded the social market system since Mrs Thatcher came to power.

Jacobsen: Around the world, we see a clamour for easy answers and short-term solutions expressed through demagoguery and strongman politics. That kind of nationalism is extremely concerning. What hopeful signs can you see in terms of an increase in democratic participation as a means for tackling negative populism and nationalism?

Gray: That’s a very interesting question. It must be said that, in Britain, populist nationalism has largely been expressed through hostility to the European Union rather than through the overt racism that has emerged in some other European countries. That’s partly because our Conservative Party has swung to the right and partly because the explicitly anti-European UK Independence Party and the Brexit Party, have avoided the issue of race to avoid being tarnished the eyes of the electorate through association with thuggish extremists. The Brexit issue has brought people who didn’t previously vote into politics and challenged longstanding loyalties, but what influence they will have in future is hard to predict. On the other hand, opposition to Brexit has also encouraged millions of young people to voice strong opposition to populist nationalism – and they too will be a significant element in future debates on issues such as immigration and our relations with our neighbours. Unfortunately, as Britain leaves the European Union, we will lose a number of important legislative protections against extreme nationalism, which is a matter of deep concern.

Jacobsen: Where do you think things will go in the next 5 years?

Gray: Much will depend on choices made by the incoming Prime Minister, which are currently impossible to predict as he appears to be basically opportunistic and, within the Conservative Party spectrum, to have no very clear and stable views of his own. He has surrounded himself with minsters drawn almost exclusively from the anti-European right wing of his party and appears keen to cuddle up to Donald Trump. But if he maintains this line, he will inevitably run up against the fact that the working class voters who put him into power are very attached to the National Health Service and the remaining elements of the welfare state. He will also be confronted by the fact that Trump’s view of America’s economic interests proses a grave threat to the large positive balance in manufactured goods that the UK currently enjoys in its trade with the US.    

Jacobsen: What is the position of the Radical Party on freedom of conscience, freedom of belief and of religion?

Gray: Freedom of belief has been one of the central demands of the Radical Movement, right since its beginnings. As part of that, we strongly believe that the state should not promote one religion or the another. In Britain, we have a state religion in the form of the Church of England. Twenty-two seats in the House of Lords are reserved for Anglican bishops and the law requires all schools to provide education within a “broadly Christian” framework, except for “free schools” which can choose another religious framework – which in practice in almost all cases means either Islam or Judaism. Explicitly secular education is not allowed, whatever parents may feel, though in practice, in a country where only 14% of the population identify with the state religion and over half say they have no religion at all, the legal position has become increasingly irrelevant. The former Prime Minister, Mrs May, appointed education ministers who sought to facilitate the promotion of religion in state schools but on present showing it seems unlikely that the present incumbent will prioritise this approach. In the Radical Party, we believe that parents should decide the philosophical framework in which their young children are brought up and that the public education system should respect diversity of opinion, and not promote any one system of belief or other.

Jacobsen: What rights enshrine this within the United Kingdom and within the European Union that the Radical Party would explicitly affirm and promote?

Gray: We strongly affirm the founding principles of the United Nations and the ideals embodied by the European Union regarding issues such as freedom of belief, equality of opportunity and gender rights and equality. Freedom of movement within the Europe is important for creating a tolerant and open society. We strongly support the strengthening of the international community based on international, democratic structures. We believe that, in future, Britain should re-join the European Union and increase its support for the United Nations and its agencies. A disturbing aspect of elements of the right-wing press and the anti-European movement is a dismissive attitude towards international engagement and the work of the United Nations. It is too early to say whether these attitudes will take root in the Conservative Party under Boris Johnson, but I think that it is unlikely that we will see prominent political figures openly promoting such views in the way that Donald Trump regularly does.  

Jacobsen: Has the Radical Party worked in any campaigns, activism, or outreach with organizations in the United Kingdom such as Humanists UK or similar organizations internationally but located in the UK such as Humanists International?

Gray: We seek to promote the aims of a number of like-minded organisations, notably The Secular Society, whose policies we strongly support.

Jacobsen: Thank you very much for the opportunity and your time, Mr. Gray.

Gray: It’s been a pleasure.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Mandisa 50 – Archives and Legacy

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/01/05

Mandisa Thomas, a native of New York City, is the founder and President of Black Nonbelievers, Inc. Although never formally indoctrinated into belief, Mandisa was heavily exposed to Christianity, Black Nationalism, and Islam. As a child she loved reading, and enjoyed various tales of Gods from different cultures, including Greek and Ghanaian. “Through reading these stories and being taught about other cultures at an early age, I quickly noticed that there were similarities and differences between those deities and the God of the Christian Bible. I couldn’t help but wonder what made this God so special that he warrants such prevalence today,” she recalls.

Mandisa has many media appearances to her credit, including CBS Sunday MorningCNN.com, and Playboy, The Humanist, and JET magazines. She has been a guest on podcasts such as The Humanist Hour and Ask an Atheist, as well as the documentaries Contradiction and My Week in Atheism. Mandisa currently serves on the Board for American Atheists and the American Humanist Association, and previously for Foundation Beyond Belief, the 2016 Reason Rally Coalition, and the Secular Coalition for America. She is also an active speaker and has presented at conferences/conventions for the Freedom from Religion Foundation, Secular Student Alliance, and many others.

In 2019, Mandisa was the recipient of the Secular Student Alliance’s Backbone Award and named the Freedom from Religion Foundation’s Freethought Heroine. She was also the Unitarian Universalist Humanist Association’s Person of the Year 2018.

As the president of Black Nonbelievers, Inc., Mandisa encourages more Blacks to come out and stand strong with their nonbelief in the face of such strong religious overtones.

“The more we make our presence known, the better our chances of working together to turn around some of the disparities we face. We are NOT alone.”

Here, we talk about archival works.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: We have some really, truly exciting history for Black Nonbelievers and secular African-American history. What happened recently? Who contacted you? What instigated their contacting you?

Mandisa Thomas: I was contacted by Teddy R. Reeves, who is one of the researchers and directors at the Smithsonian Museum of African-American Culture. He contacted me to start sending them archives of Black Nonbelievers’s work.

What facilitated this was cultivating a working relationship based on the 6-part “gOD-Talk: A Black Millennials and Faith Conversation Series” on Black Millennials who are leaving religion. I had the opportunity to work with his staff when they shot the Atlanta segment.

He also wanted to circle back around to interview me, and others in the organization. He reached out on October 16th about starting the process of collecting the archived work.

This is major for us. Because, as we talk about the trajectory of the Black community, especially with the role that religion plays, now that BN is representing black atheists, they want to document us.

It is amazing because we have had people interview us, previously. There has always been good interest. But to have this interest from a major institution like the Smithsonian, is groundbreaking.

Jacobsen: In a way, the work of the Smithsonian reaching to you. It sets a tone of the importance of secular and freethought history of African-American history within American history. How do you see this moving forward?

Thomas: I think it is going to move forward and be progressive because of the detailed history that the Smithsonian Museum of African-American Culture provides. It goes all the way back to the 16th century, when my African ancestors were brought [E.d non-consensually/by force] to this part of the world, and the horrific treatment and enslavement.

It also speaks to Black accomplishment. It speaks to our community. Certainly, the secular piece has been omitted for a large part. Now, there are organizations like Black Nonbelievers, and individuals who are now detailing not just our experiences and making new history, but revisiting parts of African-American history that have taken a back seat for so long.

We are not just making history. We are also reshaping the historical narrative and rewriting history in the process. It is not just important for our community know, but for everyone to know and understand this information.  

Jacobsen: What do you want to be the main takeaway for individuals who visit and see this aspect of African-American history – freethought and secular history – at the Smithsonian?

Thomas: The main takeaway that I want them to have is that atheism and secularism isn’t foreign to African-American community. It has always been a part of our history; in fact, we have always been part of making history within our community. Whether it has been critique about religion and the church as well as those who are letting go of these God concepts, we have always been here. However, there are now more of us who are becoming visible and open about our perspective.

It is important that we acknowledge all of the history – good and bad. It is important to emphasize the Black community is not, and never has, been monolithic.

There are many schools of thought and perspectives that have nothing to do with belief in God. The church does not define all of us. And with time, this is changing even more. And our communities need to be prepared.

Jacobsen: Will this go out in phases or stages planned so far? or is that still up in the air?

Thomas: Because we haven’t had the initial call (at the time of this writing), I am hoping that it will be done in stages. There will be time needed to gather the materials.

I know that we’ve done so many interviews. Although most of them are chronicled and cataloged in a centralized database, the information will still need to be complied. So hopefully, we can all put this together and make sure that it is a fantastic project. One that will resonate with the visitors of the Smithsonian if our work is ever on display.

It will not be an overnight process However, it is something that I am anticipating and preparing for.

Jacobsen: Will other secular African-American organizations help you?

Thomas: At this point, I am not too sure. I know the Center for Inquiry still has some archives from the African-Americans for Humanism program, which just went defunct. I will need to contact the researchers over there.

Also, some of the Black secular organizations that were around when we got started, should be able to help. 

So hopefully, it will be a collaborative project. I still have a good relationship with the other African-American secular leaders, so we should be able to work together. 

Jacobsen: Could other organizations, like the Secular Coalition for America, assist in the effort with compiling the history?

Thomas: I hope they can. Our resources are limited, so assistance from other organizations would be welcome. However, WE (i.e., Black Nonbelievers) are the ones that need to ensure proper representation and information. Although I would love the Secular Coalition for America’s (and others’) help, it is important that we spearhead the project.

I know the Freedom From Religion Foundation has an amazing archive of African-American freethinkers. We will be contacting them as well. That is work that I willing to do because it is part of what I have taken on as part of the demographic. 

Jacobsen: What other museums or organizations would be good to catalogue this aspect of American history?

Mandisa: Definitely, the Schomburg Center for Research in Black Culture in New York City. There’s also the National Civil Rights Museum/Civil Rights Memorial in Montgomery, which I visited in 2016. There’s a lot of information on the Civil Rights Era of the 1950s and 1960s. Additionally, there’s the Auburn Avenue Research Library in Atlanta.

Since this research is so new, we are paving the way for those facilities to have catalogues of African-American humanists, freethinkers, nonbelievers, etc. And I am happy to be breaking ground on it.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Mandisa.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Interview with Ann. L. Watzel – Humanist Forum, UU Church of Bloomington, Indiana

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/01/04

Ann L. Watzel is a member of the Humanist Forum of the UU Church of Bloomington, Indiana.

Here, we talk about her life, work, views, and some more.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, where are you at here? How did you move into atheism and humanism?

Ann. L. Watzel: The Humanist Forum is a prepared topic by one person with discussion and questions following it. That is how we work here with an alternation between two groups.

It seems, to me, that I have withdrawn from the church-y activities in our group. I still take part in the reading group. However, I have withdrawn from the church Sunday services. I only go there for this humanist group, which meets in the same place on Mondays.

At least, I can rub elbows with the same people in the congregation.

How I got to be more of a humanist person and atheist person, that’s because of the Hubble Telescope. Friends with physics degrees who I talk with, where the world got bigger, and bigger, and bigger around me. I became much more atheistic in my outlook.

Jacobsen: Have you noticed similar transitions in others who are in the UU community towards a more atheistic and humanistic lens, at times?

Watzel: In the UU community, I am not sure. I feel that our church has gotten more church-y and much less oriented towards humanistic topics. That just may be with our church. I do not know about the larger community.

I have withdrawn from the groupings that happen across districts and multiple states. Although, I can only speak to what I see here at Bloomington.

Jacobsen: When you’re in community for the humanist portion of, basically, the UU community there in Bloomington, what are some discussions had at a lay level – ordinary conversations among members important in daily lives and in their philosophy?

Watzel: If you looked at or opened any of our topics, you would see what we talk about over the years. It would be the best. Some of it is very personal. Here, someone speaking about something current in the church, right now.

Maybe, it is something about childhood education or something else local. A couple weeks later, we are talking about something unrelated to UUism, at all [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Watzel: We are staying current with the world and looking at where the world is going, and where the human population is gaining new knowledge.

Jacobsen: I did look at all of the topics spoken of. The range is quite wide and the topics are quite varied.

Watzel: Yes, they are.

Jacobsen: Some of the more recent ones, I think, were around death and dying.

Watzel: Yes, we did have an interesting discussion on that. It was interesting to see some in the group never told the immediate family their views. They simply knew that their views were much different from an older, religious outlook.

I was curious at how in the world they would handle the decisions handled within a family, when the family doesn’t know the person has a totally different viewpoint, currently. That was a fascinating discussion after the initial presentation.

Jacobsen: How do the demographics of the UU community and the humanist community in Bloomington, Indiana community split up?

Watzel: We are [Laughing] right on the edge of Indiana University. So, a large portion of our population is university oriented. We have a number of ex-professors. We have a number of ex-ministers from other religions.

I don’t know if it is oriented to a particular age group. Certainly, they are focusing on the interested of the younger generations. But I don’t think they are focused on the younger populations. It is a range of people who we serve – younger people, older people, and everyone in between.

Jacobsen: How does this compare to Indiana in general in educational levels?

Watzel: Bloomington is an oasis in the middle of a big, red state. That includes some very old-timey religion. [Laughing] yes, Bloomington is an interesting town in the middle of Indiana. Even in the coffee shops, they are more cosmopolitan.

People stay around. We have all sorts of restaurants. It is very different than general Indiana community. That’s reflected in the UU church as well, in the humanist group. It is interesting. We have a variety of people in our humanist group.

We have happily attracted a couple of new young men who were very new in their careers. They are not university people, not university professors. We’re glad that we’re, at least, able to connect on that score.

Jacobsen: With the rise of some forms of very strong right-wing politics, how has this impacted some of the discussions and surrounding community dynamics for those who are in Bloomington and part of the humanist community, the UU community, and entangled in a larger state that is, as you noted, is largely red?

Watzel: We have had the issues some other communities have had in that regard. You could probably Google: “Farmer’s Market White Supremacy Bloomington.” You could see the confrontation in the community with it.

Antifas, protest groups, all involved and making national headlines [Laughing]. It is different. We do face those problems here in Bloomington like every place else.

Jacobsen: Do you see the Bloomington orientation of White Nationalism mixed up with religion as well?

Watzel: The woman most affected by this white supremacist situation in Bloomington was someone who identified herself as a naturalist. That was a new term to me. I didn’t quite understand what that meant. I don’t know how it connects religiously.

I really don’t have any idea on that one. But she has been part of the farmer’s market for years, and years, and years. Evidently, she was never proselytizing for a particular viewpoint. Someone found her views on social media.

That raised a big question for, at least, group of people, saying, “We don’t want the white supremacists here.” I am quite sure that they exist all around us.

Jacobsen: Sure.

Watzel: So, even though, she didn’t do anything within the social setting that we have here in Bloomington with the farmer’s market, didn’t do anything wrong. She was, evidently, “found out,” I guess, because of verbiage on social media.

So, that’s lead to questions about what kind of farmer’s market. There were divisions around it. People showing up in black masks and black t-shirts. It has been interesting to follow it.

Jacobsen: How does knowledge of extreme views on social media impact a person’s placement or position within a community, especially communities that are smaller and more quaint, like those including a farmer’s market?

How does the community find and discuss this information about preventative measures on negative behavioural consequences on such views enacted in public?

Watzel: I am not a Facebook user. A whole lot of people are talking about these things on Facebook. Within my Unitarian community, I know quite a lot of people are involved in a lot of active groups, where the purpose is to create Facebook meetings across these kinds of divides.

We hope to understand each other better, a little bit. It has worked for those who have been involved with the discussions with the proviso that some discussions will never have people on the same page. Or, they don’t accept me; and I don’t accept them.

That feeling between the two parties. I think there’s hopefulness because enough people are involved in those planned activities, where the idea is to, indeed, know someone better. There is hopefulness that that will continue.

We have a good group in the church, in the civil rights area, very supportive of the Black Lives Matter group. Both in town, in the community, and in the church. It is a lot of crossing from one idea to another. There is a good bit of cross-stimulation between the two.

At least, from my viewpoint, if that is true across the larger community, I don’t know.

Jacobsen: When it comes to Indiana proper, the state, who are prominent people in history or now? Those who advance notions of ways of life apart from traditional organized and fundamentalist religion.

Watzel: I can’t tell you that. I don’t really know. I think we’ve had some really good people in the state. However, I am not sure how that relates to Humanism or religion, or advocacy, in that regard. We’ve got some people who, I think, politically are very much oriented towards total civil dialogue coming from Indiana.

It is wonderful. I am thinking of Lugar who is still terribly well-respected and is a sensible human being [Laughing] with sensible ideas, and community back-and-forth. There are others who are in the same boat as that.

I don’t know about a broad range, whether writers, artists, or others. We have a few of those. However, I don’t think that any of them are out there advocating a particular way of living.

Jacobsen: Thank you very much for your time, by the way.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Interview with Gerardo Miguel Rivera – Leadership Council, Latinx Humanist Alliance, & Vice President, Secular Humanist Association UPRM

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/01/02

Gerardo Miguel Rivera is part of the Leadership Council for the Latinx Humanist Alliance and the Vice President for the Secular Humanist Association UPRM (University of Puerto Rico – Mayagüez University Campus). Rivera is an undergraduate student at the University of Puerto Rico – Mayagüez University Campus. He is on the Board of Directors of Secular Humanists of Puerto Rico and the Youth Advisory Council of Americans United for Separation of Church & State (AU), as well as the National Leadership Council of Secular Student Alliance. In addition to this, he is a representative of Puerto Rico to Humanists International.

Here, we talk about his life, work, views, and some more.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, with regards to secular humanist and similar values, what was the early development of those for you?

Gerardo Miguel Rivera: It is a kind of intermediately long story. Since I was very small in Puerto Rico, I was born in a city called Mayagüez. Ever since I was pretty small, I have always enjoyed science and biology in particular, studying animals and plants.

My family, though my father, from a small boy until about 13 or 14 years old or a young teen, took me to temple. The only good thing was studying the Bible in detail. Even though, I got the pretty detailed study of thr Bible and Christianity in general.

I was never extremely keen on participating in the religious activities. After that subsided, and he stopped taking me to his temple for whatever reason (which is still unclear to me), my mom saw this as a golden opportunity to decide to take her son to a church, a Catholic Church.

Interestingly enough, my mom and dad got married and, obviously, divorced. Even though, they were from different religions at the time. They ended up getting married in a Presbyterian church [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Rivera: They figured, “Since we’re from different religions, let’s just get a middle ground and pick some other religion.” That is liberal enough from either of their churches. They decided to get married in the that Presbyterian church.

Ironically, I became an atheist, right?

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Rivera: We’ve got everyone’s perspective in the spectrum in our family. Even after my mom started taking me all to her Catholic activities, Confirmation and studying the Catholic bases, (before I continue, I should say) when my father took me to the temple, I already had Catholic Baptism from the start because Jehovah’s Witnesses baptisms are when you’re old enough to accept Jesus into your heart.

As I was saying, I was never, ever extremely religious. I remember, since I started in the temple and then going to Catholic masses and studying Catholicism, having stronger questions and criticism.

I remember when taking confirmation classes. I would ask the Catholic teacher, “Why is so and so like this? This doesn’t make sense. Science says this.” It was always an inner battle that things did not make sense.

I was always, in that sense, very open-minded. I think stuff is lucky for me. I lived mostly with my mom. Even luckier, in the sense that my family was never, my mother was never conservative enough to ingrain religion in my mind.

I always had the choice to criticize and be open-minded, not like in other families, which my girlfriend may have been stunted by religious “oppression.” I consider myself very lucky in that sense.

When people ask me about my mother, I say, “I am lucky that she was Catholic. She was pretty laid back.” I call her a “Light Catholic,” because, now, she is more liberal on the stances on religion.

She thinks there is this general being that exists that controls good and bad, but she is criticized, a lot, the Catholic Church, particularly for their obvious cover-ups of a sexual nature. She is very keen to criticize organized religion.

She likes to, sometimes, criticize the various aspects of why religion may not be that great. She still believes in this general deity up there. She accepts my being an atheist and a humanist. I have had these questions over various times.

Because sadly, the only person who doesn’t know that I am an atheist is my father. I do not have a very good relationship with my father. Because he is not a great dad, since I was a teen. Even though, I really had a chance to tell him. I didn’t.

I regret not telling him because he is more fundamentalist in a sense. I can’t fathom him. What would be his reaction if he found out that I do not believe in God? Years ago, I criticized his religious hypocrisy. It was not a good result in a conversation, to say the least.

Any further questions? [Laughing]

Jacobsen: What is your involvement with the secular and the humanist community in Puerto Rico now?

Rivera: You might find this interesting. Specifically, when I started using the label atheist, it was when I was in high school. When I started high school, here it might be slightly different, I started in 10th grade. Now, it is 9th here.

I did start using the word “atheist” to refer to myself. I noticed, in my high school, they were tending to do these religious activities. The main one was one occasion when my school started organizing, in the middle of the school, religious activities.

You could not argue that they were not religious.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Rivera: These students lead, and organized by two teachers, and started these masses in the middle of the school with drums, musical instruments, and then they’d talk about religion. I was not happy.

Specifically, here in Puerto Rico, the Constitution here says, ‘There will be a separation of church and state…’, which is something I am proud of – having a constitution that is fairly nuanced on this specific issue.

Interestingly enough, it is because of the religious minorities on the island asked for this to be put in the Constitution because of the fear of the Catholic majority potentially discriminating against them and then using the Constitution against them.

I remember being mad, because after I realized it was an inappropriate action from the school and by these teachers to be organizing such an activity during school hours. I entered the school’s library pretty upset and talked to some of my friends.

Now, when I think about, there was a friend who was an atheist, too. Now that I think about it, I am surprised there was another outspoken atheist in my school [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Rivera: I was explaining being upset at such actions in a school. I remember the librarian – a lovely and very helpful woman – coming to me and saying, “Maybe, if you do not like what happens in the school, perhaps, you can go to another part of the school where it is far away, so you do not get upset.’

[Laughing] I told her straight up, “This shouldn’t be happening in the first place. So, I shouldn’t have to be moving because this is an inappropriate activity on school grounds and during school hours.”

She didn’t like that answer to say the least. That is when I decided to write a letter to the school and the administration to collect the signatures for myself and from fellow students. They were, mostly, for being from another religion.

For example, I remember a girl who was Jewish. She was not very religious. Now, I know: she is agnostic. It is interesting to note people who studied religion with you were less religious than thought [Laughing].

I wrote this letter. I have it. I still keep a copy of the signed letter. I talk to this teacher who was a Catholic. She was my biology teacher. She happened to be a lawyer. I remember her telling me. Even though, I am religious. I know these activities should not be happening.

They completely violate church and state separation. They are coercing students to participate in an activity that should not happen in the first place. I was pleased to have her and another teacher – the history teacher – to lend their help to me, in these endeavours.

I wrote the letter. I went to the school director. Whoever I deemed necessary, I ended up having a meeting with all of them. I explained why it was that this was incorrect [Laughing]; that they were potentially risking getting sued if something happened.

The school director completely agreed with me. The only she said, “I am from a minority religion.” I don’t remember the specific religion. But it was very minority [Laughing] here on the island.

“Even though, I agree with you. I don’t know what to do. You’re right. But the majority of the school is participating in this and taking part in this. I don’t know what to do. I don’t want to break up this lovey-dovey moment, as they’re happy about it.”

She didn’t know what to do. I told her, “You have to find a way to make these activities stop or to allow them to continue doing them that is more neutral, does not mention a god, and are less cultish” [Laughing], in a sense.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Rivera: If you can tell them to do this in a more neutral way, I do not have a problem in doing this in a more reflectionary way. I do not have a problem with it. I remember going to the teacher who is one of the organizers of the activities.

I told her why I think it is inappropriate. She was not happy. She was very, very, very religious, devout Christian. She said that if she was not allowed to continue these on school grounds; she would move them to a public space across the school.

I told her, “Isn’t that correct? It isn’t that moral of you, right? It means you’re willing to move the activity during school hours across the street in which students are not allowed to leave school grounds during that time. Are you encouraging students to cut classes and participate in this activity? If they cross the street and, let’s say, they tragically get hit by a car. Are you willing to take responsibility for influencing them?”

She denied that she would take responsibility for any of that. I told her, “I don’t know if Jesus would approve of that” [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Rivera: That was clearly the first instance of trying for church-state separation. I think it is a common thing for most newcomers, the young students in this movement, right? It is becoming more and more common for students to be finding that their schools, or whatever, are church-run spaces or are becoming more religiously incorrectly influenced.

Because my stance will always be that I am not against religion. I completely pro-people being able to manifest their religious rights. But we want the government to be neutral, but towards believers and non-believers alike.

Some of my best friends are religious. They understand that clearly. That’s what I see as, for now at least, my goal in life, to be the best example for my younger peers. That we can, actually, live a moral life without religion.

Luckily enough for me, as we all know, the younger you are; the more receptive you are to these secular values. So, at least in Puerto Rico, we are gaining substantial ground with the youth. They may not know or do not know they are an atheist.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Rivera: Because they have not been confronted with the word “atheist.” I have interacted with people in conferences for the Secular Humanist Association UPRM. Sometimes, they tell their stories. It is always thrilling for me.

People are trying to get help and saying, “I am experiencing this at my school. I don’t know what to do. They are trying to push religion down our throats, practically. I have this awesome opportunity to work with people who are awesome.”

Working with people who are awesome, like Shirley, or my group or a campus diversity group, even students who come with all of these different viewpoints, something that I am very, very keen on, currently.

It is something that I think the movement should focus on. Sometimes, I criticize the secular movement because I, personally and most of us, tend to be very, very liberal. Knowing most of us have progressive values, I think, sometimes, we should act in such a way, so we can make sure people who are not necessarily that progressive or liberal-leaning are more conservative and find themselves more comfortable.

Because it is never going to be an easy battle to get more people on our side if they do not, actually, start acting within us. There are people. Specifically, those who come from religiously regressive families.

They do not know how to interact with those who are not religious. They are scared. They are getting this complete image of what being a secular humanist is. They can be overwhelmed at times. I try to be as politically neutral as possible.

In my group, I am happy to be as inclusive and open as I can. We want as much of the social, political, and economic spectrum as we can. Secularism is not just a closed box. It is more complicated than it is for a lot of people.

So, yes, Scott, any further questions? [Laughing]

Jacobsen: [Laughing] what are the major secular policy and political issues in Puerto Rico now?

Rivera: I can only speak for the Secular Humanist Association UPRM. It is practically the same for Shirley’s group too. Currently, in Puerto Rico, from the secular humanist group, we are, mainly, the first active group fighting for church and state separation.

Specifically, LGBT rights, we are very keen on social justice in lots of aspects. We try, our work specifically is against the legislative actions that are currently happening. We always have them happening.

If I can be more specific on more recent events happening here, just yesterday, the House of Representative has been dancing around and considering, since 2017, these bills to apply here a more aggressive version of the Religious Restoration Act, which Bill Clinton signed in 1993.

It has been an uphill battle fighting against this bombardment of things being fought against here because, sadly, Puerto Rico, even though, we have a very, very bad situation with secular issues and with trying to maintain our wall of separation; sadly, we have, practically, a non-existent, except for a few, lawyers and policy activists.

Those willing to fight against these forest policies trying to be pushed. Normally, in the U.S. and in other states, you have the ACLU, and other groups, willing to help. Here in Puerto Rico, the ACLU and other groups including us as a secular humanist organization are in over our heads.

We have so much to do, so little funds. We are sparsely staffed most of the time. We, sometimes, have to depend on U.S. organizational help with more capacity than us. Sometimes, even that, it doesn’t help because we need somebody who is locally based to help us.

Luckily, we have some magnificent lawyers who give more than an arm and a leg to be constantly in this uphill battle. Normally, in the U.S., it is easier to get the documentation that you have. But here, there’s way too many violations in how documents are stored, if they are available to the public, which [Laughing] most of the time they are.

[Laughing] sometimes, in an illegal way, they are not. There is currently some construction being done on this plaza completely motivated by religion. It is a religious construction. It is going to have a religious statue in the middle, apparently. We are having trouble accessing some documents that we need to prove that some impropriety is happening.

Above the senate, the president and the house speaker are [Laughing] trying to, or toying with us, prevent us getting those documents. We focus on those issues. Because, luckily, Puerto Rico tends to be socially progressive, at least.

In my opinion, but if you ask people like Eva Quinones, she will say, “Puerto Rico is very socially conservative, but economically not” [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Rivera: Maybe, I have a more optimistic view of Puerto Rico. Besides that, something that I got instantly inspired from. I have wanted for a long time to start doing humanist ceremonies here in Puerto Rico.

To my unhappy reality, and for Eva’s and others’, Puerto Ricans can’t have humanist weddings because our civil code does not make this possible. We hope to be campaigning in the future. Already, we are. That is one of my focuses.

I am very keen on that. Our fellow friends who are atheists, obviously, from the Pastafarian Church can, and often do, perform these ceremonies. We do not want to necessarily register our organization as a church.

We do not think this is appropriate for us or our members. But hopefully, we can manage to change the laws. So, it can be open enough to allow us to perform, in the future, our humanist ceremonies. Any other specific questions? I hope I am answering your questions as best I can [Laughing].

Jacobsen: They are good answers, thank you. Another question, who are infamous political and policymaking actors who stand against secular reform progression and change in Puerto Rico?

Rivera: [Laughing] that’s a great question. That is what I call my “Black List.”

Jacobsen: Ha!

Rivera: In Puerto Rico, mostly nobody knows about our political state here. Obviously, we have the Lower house and Upper House, our Senate and House. The President of the Senate is called Thomas Rivera Schatz. The President of the House, as we call it, is called (the chair) Carlos Johnny Méndez, so Johnny Mendez or Johnny.

They are both from the New Progressive Party, ironically called. It Spanish it is called Partido Nuevo Progresista, PNP. It is one of our three main longstanding parties here. The New Progressive Party is only progressive in the sense that it wants Puerto Rico to be a state, as it is a state party.

Interestingly enough, our political parties are based not on necessarily normal policies on economics and stuff like that. It depends on whether you want Puerto Rico to be a U.S. state or an independent nation, or just be the current territorial status with the U.S.

So, these political representatives mostly belong to the PNP, which, as I already explained, is only progressive in Puerto Rico only being a state. Its policy is not socially progressive. Those leaders of the House and of the Senate are from that party.

They have constantly, constantly, manifest that they want to push more religious fundamentalist bills. They have stated this constantly in the past; that they are willing, they are willing, to put religion over our Constitution.

They have stated that clearly in the past. We have another, specifically, a member of that party. Her name is María Milagros Charbonier Laurean. We call her Tata. No [Laughing], when I say, “Tata,” there is no connotation to breasts, obviously.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Rivera: It is a word that people here use to refer to a mother figure or mother figures, sometimes. She is extremely, extremely religious regressive. She has constantly been, if there is somebody that comes to mind when you speak about religion in Puerto Rico, the figurehead.

She has been the main promoter of bills in the House. She is a Member of the House of Representatives. She has constantly worked to make religious exceptions to government workers. So, they have an excuse to discriminate.

She has gone every chance on T.V. and radio, as an outspoken person for any religious regressive bill. She is the curse to most of the things that happen here, Scott. Another helper from this Black List of mine is a senator from the city of – here we have 78 cities and senators for each region, obviously – Carolina, which is a city here. Her name is Nayda Venegas Brown. Besides being a senator, she is also leading a church.

She leads a church. She is outspoken within her religion, as he has a right to do it. When we combine her with Maria Charbonier, and the leaders of the House and the Senate constantly grouping to group these legislations, it is a horrendously hard hill to be battling against.

Then we add to that, these horrendously regressive, conservative religious groups here on the island. One of them is called Puerto Rico for Family, or Puerto Rico por la Familia. It is a very conservative group led by people like Dr. César A. Vázquez Muñiz and another pastor from the south of Puerto Rico called Pastor Venida. I call him “The Minion.”

They are the main religious voices who are not Catholic in most of the legislations, where they work to ban abortion. They want these exceptions for religious workers in government. So, they are able to discriminate to their citizens.

Practically, they represent everything, which I don’t. Luckily or unluckily, I have never had the chance to meet Dr. Vasquez or Pastor Venida in person. But we have more than interacted online or on radio. Eva is constantly having to retract what they say online and on the radio.

It is horrendous. Just today, after the governor decided not to push or give his approval to a bill that happening, which is the one that I refer to in regards to religious exceptions to the Religious Restoration Act in Puerto Rico.

Even though, the original bill was submitted in the house and then he decided to veto it. He would not approve of it. He then decided to submit his own version, where he was trying to get some consensus between the religious community and the LGBT community.

What our stance is, there is no need to get consensus when the purpose of the legislation is to discrimination; there is no consensus on discrimination. The only consensus we can get is no discrimination against anybody.

This bill that we have been talking about. The governor, just yesterday, decided to withdraw his own bill. So, it is hilarious. You see a government that is constantly saying that it is pro-LGBT rights and pro-non-discrimination, but then decides to promote its own legislation in these regards.

It is an obvious political play. My speculation is the governor may not be against LGBT rights. He is pretty young, actually. My interpretation of what tends to happen is most of these politicians know that their constituency approved of these legislations.

But they want to secure the voters who are very fundamentalist and religious. So, they, at least, try to push for these bills. Even though, they might not be sure if they can pass them or not. They gave us quite a scare because, sometimes, they get very close.

Maybe, my interpretation: they try to play this charade to get the impression to make their fundamentalist and religious voters think that they are, actually, doing something for them. So, that’s, more or less, our main pushers of religion into politics.

We do have some other Catholic priests who do come out and push for these legislations, too. Surprisingly, the Catholic Church [Laughing] in Puerto Rico is less of a problem than these Protestant groups or churches, which is surprising me.

I don’t know why. Interesting fact, in the past, when Puerto Rico after the 1950s, it did have a political party for a few years, which was a Catholic political party by name and by policy, right? The leaders were Catholic. Interestingly enough, the governor at the time entered into these battles or political battles with the Catholic Church. He managed to win. I suspect this is why the Catholic Church tends to be more apolitical in Puerto Rico.

Rarely, you see them doing something very, very clearly political here in Puerto Rico. For example, something against abortion. They are more neutral than we would think, here.

Jacobsen: What seems like the largest wins in the history of Puerto Rico for secularism?

Rivera: [Laughing] that’s a good question. I am trying to think of any. Scott, I have to be very honest. I do not necessarily think that Puerto Rico has had very many. In my mind, at least, there have been some wins, in the sense of progressing in some sense.

I can mention them soon enough. Honestly, Puerto Rico has been lucky – or lucky and unlucky. I do not mean this as a political or personal stance on Puerto Rico being a U.S. territory. For better or worse, what I mean, Puerto Rico has been applied as a U.S. territory rather than a state.

So, we do not have the freedom to push these legislations like a state. We do not have the right of a state with a constitution, which would be normal states’ rights advocates would want. At most, the Supreme Court decides something, obviously, makes things way more easier to apply here because we do not have the states’ rights argument for what the Supreme Court of things that happen.

Automatically, our application of U.S. federal law is easier here. We avoid most of that states’ rights argument here, which a lot of states have in the U.S. What I would say, a lot of the changes have come because the Supreme Court has done that here.

You will never find a Puerto Rico Supreme Court case in which things have been done in a nuanced way for secular purposes. Courts here are scared. They tend to say, “Let’s leave this to the Supreme Court.”

They tend to be very scared to take action in that sense. We have had various ways in which our organization has gone to court. Our judges are afraid – our interpretation. You cannot argue a federal judge is afraid, right?

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Rivera: Yes, they try. They are more hesitant to act. When they themselves admit that it is clear that this is a violation of church-state separation, I would not chuck off our Supreme Court or our courts to be the leaders of change.

Any change done locally for the Supreme Court has been when the court has done something. We have been successful with being more inclusive and for pushing legislation that has made, for example, giving marriage licenses to couples – same-sex couples.

There was some very progressive legislation that had been pushed here with a lot of success. Some applications, some local judges, have been progressive and open-minded enough to fight some federal cases for giving LGBT members of the community some more equality.

But purely, purely, purely church-state separation, we don’t have a lot of change. I will mention a specific case soon. For example, now, one of our worries is that schools are being privatized and being made religious or private religious schools during this government’s and administration’s funding periods.

They’ve been greatly funded. It is something U.S. organizations like Americans United have been fighting against. Puerto Rican public school system is something that I take very dearly leading a product published from the U.S. school system, which I am very proud of.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Rivera: It is Church School Legislation in which schools can be teamed up with churches. It has become very, very bad to fight these laws, which were made possible with schools being private while still funded by the state to promote religion and used for religious purposes.

There are vouchers for students. Vouchers, sometimes, are more complex as a debate. But we do have our stances against some parts of vouchers being used for religious education here. So, in that regard, we are not being very successful in fighting that.

People do not see the secondary consequences of giving the state funds being given for religious education. The expenses for such education being a violation of the Constitution. Our Constitution here is very progressive here.

It clearly states that we will not give any funds for private purposes. It is a complex situation here in most of these cases. But one of the prime cases was when, in 2016, the President of the House of Representatives introduced with Maria Charbonier and another representative a bill in which they would declare.

There was a declaration of 40 days of fasting and prayer on the island because they felt that they needed to give thanks to God through prayer and fasting, but throughout Puerto Rico. This was a declaration signed by the House of Representatives.

This was a clear, clear, violation of our Constitution. There is no doubt about that. No doubt. Eva sued the House of Representatives. It was a costly suit. When we sued the President of the House, it was a long proceeding.

At the end of the day, the judge decides that we had no standing because, apparently, there was no harm being done. The whole point of our argument was “no harm” was not an argument against our case because the harm being done couldn’t be done necessarily to people because the first stance that the harm was being done by violating the Constitution.

There was not a need to argue that there needed to be harm done to a specific person to be able to bring the suit to court. That ended up like that. They have not done such a declaration again. We are very sad that, even though successful in stopping a lot of it, the declaration still took effect in some of its parts.

If we actually had judges that weren’t clearly scared on a clear violation, we would have won the case. If there is something I can ask my U.S. based colleagues, it is that we, here, in Puerto Rico need more help from lawyers, from people who can fight this unbelievable brunt, which is most of the world.

We have a saying, “Half of the battle is just showing up and doing something.” Because most people don’t. The reality is that we need people who are willing to take these cases to court. We need more people who can help us with that.

One of my goals in life is that, hopefully, if I have the chance; I can study law. So, I can help out however I can in fighting these legislations in court. We really, really drastically need people who can do that.

Jacobsen: If you are looking at the latter half of 2019 and into 2020, how can people become politically involved in Puerto Rico as well as helping from the outside?

Rivera: [Laughing] I would hate to say something cliché. Obviously, we should always work from the place of everyone needing to donate for our members to keep our members, as these legal battles cost a lot.

Sometimes, these lawyers do this pro bono most of the time. But we need funding to fight these battles in court to do what we need to do. We always have activities around the island. We are always, at least in my campus, trying to recruit people, especially youth who will be the next voters.

We are trying to convince people because, obviously, in politics. This is a common thing. People vote for a few or a single policy. Then they don’t see these politicians simply lying to them in regard to the social and secular aspects.

We need people to be more conscious when they vote. We need someone who is honest and representing them, appropriately – and their beliefs on non-discrimination and treating everyone the same.

We try to convince people to come and participate in our activities. Normally, we have these conferences and invite people to donate, to give some time too. When we tell people, “Hey, this bill is being considered by the Senate. We need you to go with us at such and such a place and at such and such a time, because representatives and senators do not respond to only a couple of people showing up.”

We need to show up when the people show up at the committees. So, we can show that there is no consensus on these bills breaking church-state separation. We find that most of the citizenship does not necessarily know what to do.

That’s mostly what we need people to do. It is to show up when we say, ‘We need your help. We need you to speak out at these committee meetings, as to what our stances are.” With regards to that, as I asked, if there is anybody out there, we are [Laughing] campaigning on this now.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Rivera: We need people just graduating from law school working pro bono, or if we can pay any way possible, then we need those people who are passionate about the separation of church and state to donate some of their time and some of their cash to combat some of the issues faced here in Puerto Rico.

That is what we really, really need right now. For citizenship, we need them to speak louder now. The donating and showing up when we need them during these hearings. We need people, like I said, who are starting law or are studying something, or have relevant experience (that you think might be helpful.

Our arms are always welcome to those who would help us. I know there are a lot of talented people out there. Whatever it is, they are just not getting here to us, for whatever reason. That is practically what I would suggest now.

I am more practical in that sense.

Jacobsen: Any recommended or speakers, or organizations, that are within the Puerto Rican diaspora?

Rivera: Diaspora, surprisingly, I, personally, don’t know of a lot of people. I, actually, talk about this with people recently. We do not have a lot of people who are necessarily distinguished Puerto Ricans who are publishing a lot of stuff like that.

It is commonplace in Latin American culture. For whatever reason, we are not very keen to publish or write things about these issues for some reason. We have very few publications on this in Puerto Rico.

We do not have a lot of publishers or those who are experts on this. Eva and I commonly find ourselves being the only people we can trust to speak on these issues. We have a lot of colleagues who do now and believe in church-state separation.

They may be activists from the LGBT and other communities. But I would hate to call ourselves “experts.” However, they are not necessarily experts in arguing from a separation of church and state stance, from arguing from secular humanist and a secular stance.

There aren’t a lot of people who I can point out and say, “Here in Puerto Rico, we have such and such a person.” I do have a good friend, who I mentioned to you, Scott. His name is Pedro. If you want, you can share his Facebook profile. I can share his blog with you later.

He runs a very, very nice blog that is against pseudoscience and, obviously, these religious issues. He is very well written and spoken in Spanish. He is extremely underrated and a [Laughing] very, very good writer.

He is a Professor of History at the University of Puerto Rico in Cayey. I would highly recommend people to read his blog. If anyone is interested in reading some of his blog publications, I would happily share them with you.

Right now, though, there aren’t really a lot of publications in Puerto Rico in that sense. I don’t know about a lot of people in the diaspora. I don’t know. I do not hear about a lot of people. There probably is, but these are not stories that we hear about here.

They may be active in their locale, but not here. So, I won’t comment on that, as I really don’t know. Sadly, I don’t know.

Jacobsen: Any final feelings or thoughts in conclusion based on the conversation today?

Rivera: Scott, it has been an extremely good opportunity. I thank you for giving me this opportunity to speak with you. It was great talking to you also [Laughing]. If anything, I hope this might help people and, hopefully, young Puerto Ricans, specifically, who find themselves in whatever situation they are – to be more open, happy, and comfortable that they are atheists, or whatever label they wish to use in the secular spectrum.

What I want, I want people to be happy and for them to live in a society in which they then say, “I am not religious,” and this doesn’t get pointed at as immoral. I really want to shout out and give thanks, to you for this opportunity, and to all my national and international colleagues in the secular space.

I know they do a lot. I am here. Eva is always here. Puerto Rico is always here. Our secular community will always be here with open hands to help out and greet you all. If you have an opportunity to come down here, I invite you guys to just come and experience Puerto Rico for yourself.

Like I said, if you want, Scott, to take a vacation here, we are always keen to have you, to be host. Like I said, Scott, I hope – I really, really truly hope – to help how ever much time I have on this earth to fulfill what I see as one of my main duties, which is to make sure Puerto Rico becomes a truly secular society in which we can have everybody, religious or not, manifest their will as they see fit within the parameters of the law.

How many years I have to give to this movement, and to this passion that I have for secularism, I will truly and without a doubt dedicate to that.

So, I leave you with those final thoughts [Laughing].

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Gerardo.

Rivera: Thank you, Scott.

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Interview with Steve Bowen – Chair, Kent Humanists

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/01/01

Steve Bowen is the Chair of the Kent Humanists. Here, we talk about his life, work, views, and some more.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What is family background, e.g., geography, culture, language, education, and religion or lack thereof?

Steve Bowen: I was born in the late fifties an only child to an engineer father and stay at home mother. I grew up and went to school in South London where I had a typical Church of England centred education with morning acts of worship and religious instruction as part of the curriculum. My parents were not overtly religious, more apatheist than atheist so I did not attend a church until I joined the scout movement when again Anglican Christianity was very central. Nevertheless I never really believed in or warmed to the idea of God, I had Catholic friends and their outward expressions of religiosity frequently made me uncomfortable. I was always interested in Science and Nature and eventually went on to read Biology at university.

Jacobsen: What is personal background including the discovery or development of a secular outlook on life and philosophy?

Bowen: The first time I heard the word atheist was from my scout master. At the age of nine I was trying to get out of the closing prayer to carry on with the game we had been playing. I told the pack leader I didn’t believe in God and was told in no uncertain terms that atheists weren’t welcome… I left soon after. Consequently, I always had a suspicion of religion after that. I was not aware of the concept of Humanism until I went to university. As a biology student, I was familiar with Dawkin’s “The Selfish Gene” ( He hadn’t of course written “The God Delusion” by then) and argued with Christian friends for a Darwinian view of ethics. A Baptist friend dubbed me a “Humanist” during one of those conversations. However, I did not self-identify as such until much later in life. My active involvement in any sort of atheist movement began online following 9/11 and reading the well known four horseman books as well as commenting on atheist blogs. I started my own blog http://stevebowen58.blogspot.com/ Atheist MC in 2010 which I kept up for a few years. In 2012 I went to a British Humanist Association convention where I met people from Kent Humanists and joined them that year. I was elected Chair in November 2018

Jacobsen: As the Chair of Kent Humanists, what tasks and responsibilities come with the position?

Bowen: Very few really – I am responsible for sourcing and booking speakers for monthly meetings, chairing and moderating events if necessary and being the point of communication with the public and media. I am also a Humanists UK school speaker and represent Kent Humanists in local secondary schools when invited to speak on Humanism to students.

Jacobsen: Why meet at the St. Stephens Church Hall on the third Sunday of each month? 

Bowen: The irony of using a church hall is not lost on us… we used to be based at the local university but this became increasingly difficult to book reliably so we were forced to find alternatives. St Stephens is convenient for many of our members and the church is actually very accommodating of us. We do get occasional members of the congregation at our meetings.

Jacobsen: Why fund The Canterbury Foodbank this year?

Bowen: We adopt a different charity each year. Recent ones have been The Red Cross, a women’s shelter and a riding school for the disabled. At the last AGM, it was decided that a local food bank would be appropriate. It is a church-run charity but one of our members volunteers there. It does have the secondary benefit of keeping Humanism visible.

Jacobsen: What have been more impactful social and political activities of the Kent Humanists?

Bowen: Kent Humanists has for a long time been as much about a local humanist community and meeting place for like-minded people. It has a rather “philosophical” bent which is reflected in many of the topics we cover in meetings. As individuals we have members who take part in interfaith dialogue, act as humanist pastoral carers in hospitals and provide educational support to schools.

Jacobsen: What are the demographics of the Kent Humanists? How does this impact the nature of the provisions for the community and the capacities for the community, e.g., giving to the foodbank?

Bowen: Hmmm! We are reliably white, middle class and middle-aged although fairly well gender-balanced. I would tentatively say we are a largely left-leaning bunch politically which may have some bearing on where we concentrate our outreach.

Jacobsen: Who have been integral individuals to the work of the Kent Humanists? Who have been important people to the advancement of the humanist community in the United Kingdom in general? Why them?

Bowen: Undoubtedly the biggest contributor to Kent Humanists was its founder member Professor Richard Norman who remains active with the group after 25 years. I took over from him as Chair. Richard is a VP of Humanists UK and has published several books on ethics and humanism. He is also the founder of “Humanists for a better world” which campaigns on environmental issues.

Jacobsen: Any recommended authors, organizations, or speakers?

Bowen: We’ve had so many. We draw quite heavily on Humanists UK for resources and have had presentations from Jeremy Rodell on interfaith dialogue and most notably a contributor from “Faith to Faithless” an affiliated charity that helps people leave coercive religions. Another popular speaker was Ann Furedi CEO of BPAS who spoke on her book “The Moral Case for Abortion”.

Jacobsen: Any final feelings or thoughts in conclusion?

Bowen: My association with Kent Humanists has undoubtedly made a difference to the way I approach my long-standing atheism. I don’t think I’m any more “ethical” as a result as I hope I would be that anyway but it has enabled me to frame my ethics in a more coherent way.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Steve.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Takudzwa 19 – Zimbabwean Religion as, Fundamentally, Political

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2019/12/31

Takudzwa Mazwienduna is the informal leader of Zimbabwean Secular Alliance and a member of the Humanist Society of Zimbabwe. This educational series will explore secularism in Zimbabwe from an organizational perspectiveand some more.

Here we talk about religion as politics in Zimbabwe.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: We have talked about religion and politics in Zimbabwe. How has the idea of a religious political personality created a basis of someone who is, functionally, better off because of the Halo Effect around being a religious individual & a public servant?

Takudzwa Mazwienduna: Definitely, all the leading politicians in Zimbabwe have appealed to the religious with even the most progressive of them all claiming to be a pastor towards election time. This has affected their stance on the legalization of homosexuality. They have all vowed to keep homosexuality illegal because of their religious personas.

Jacobsen: What political figures in Zimbabwe are religious and work for the public good who are better known?

Mazwienduna: Pastor Evan Mawarire is one of the most significant political activists that came up in Zimbabwe this decade. He launched a political campaign on social media, calling for the rule of law and government accountability in what is now known as the #ThisFlag movement. The campaign inspired demonstrations and strikes against the government that were met with brutal violence. The state-sponsored reign of terror on the campaign ended up shutting the whole movement down and pastor Evan who has been in exile in the United States of America for a while has been silenced for good. His fight for the rule of law is worth noting however. It is exactly what Zimbabwe needs to start moving forward.

Jacobsen: What political figures in Zimbabwe are religious and work for self-interest who are better known?

Mazwienduna: That would be every other politician who views religion as a political vehicle. Unlike Pastor Evan; an already religious figure who decided to stand up for the rule of law, Zimbabwean politicians do religious stunts especially towards elections to garner support profiting of the Christian majority in the country. The President appeals to African Apostolic sects, the most popular one in the rural areas: the same people who deny their children medical care and do child marriages. These are the John Marange and John Masowe sects. Their leaders, in turn, command their followers to vote for the dictator and it always works since the majority of the Zimbabwean population is from the communal rural areas where these sects are dominant. The opposition leader Nelson Chamisa also conveniently became a pastor in a pentecostal evangelical church towards the elections making his whole campaign centred in a religious mantra. Unfortunately for him, the urban population that goes to Pentecostal churches is not as big as the rural one that follows the African Apostolic Church.

Jacobsen: What political figures in Zimbabwe are religious, are intoxicated with supernatural ideas, and propose crazy policy or state bigoted things against ethnic groups, against the non-religious, and against women who are better known?

Mazwienduna: While religion is used for political mileage, it hasn’t been used against the non-religious community. Zimbabwean politicians understand very well that the constitution protects none religious people and Atheists, so they don’t attack us. Both the ruling and opposition party leadership have however condemned the LGBTQ community countless times and people’s sexuality is still criminalized because of it, even in the constitution. When confronted about it by LGBTQ activists former president Robert Mugabe said, “Gay people are dogs, they don’t deserve any of my attention.” He later on apologized saying that he realized his comments were insensitive… to dogs. He went on to say gay people are worse than dogs, “…at least dogs know the reproductive roles God gave them, not this Sodomites.”

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Takudzwa.

Mazwienduna: It’s a pleasure Scott.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Mandisa 49 – BN SeaCon 2019

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2019/12/31

Mandisa Thomas, a native of New York City, is the founder and President of Black Nonbelievers, Inc. Although never formally indoctrinated into belief, Mandisa was heavily exposed to Christianity, Black Nationalism, and Islam. As a child she loved reading, and enjoyed various tales of Gods from different cultures, including Greek and Ghanaian. “Through reading these stories and being taught about other cultures at an early age, I quickly noticed that there were similarities and differences between those deities and the God of the Christian Bible. I couldn’t help but wonder what made this God so special that he warrants such prevalence today,” she recalls.

Mandisa has many media appearances to her credit, including CBS Sunday MorningCNN.com, and Playboy, The Humanist, and JET magazines. She has been a guest on podcasts such as The Humanist Hour and Ask an Atheist, as well as the documentaries Contradiction and My Week in Atheism. Mandisa currently serves on the Board for American Atheists and the American Humanist Association, and previously for Foundation Beyond Belief, the 2016 Reason Rally Coalition, and the Secular Coalition for America. She is also an active speaker and has presented at conferences/conventions for the Freedom from Religion Foundation, Secular Student Alliance, and many others.

In 2019, Mandisa was the recipient of the Secular Student Alliance’s Backbone Award and named the Freedom from Religion Foundation’s Freethought Heroine. She was also the Unitarian Universalist Humanist Association’s Person of the Year 2018.

As the president of Black Nonbelievers, Inc., Mandisa encourages more Blacks to come out and stand strong with their nonbelief in the face of such strong religious overtones.

“The more we make our presence known, the better our chances of working together to turn around some of the disparities we face. We are NOT alone.”

Here, we talk about BN SeaCon 2019.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, you finished the cruise. What were some of the highlights?

Mandisa Thomas: Yes, we completed BN SeaCon 2019 aboard the Carnival Horizon, which sailed out of Miami, Florida on Sunday, November 10th and returned on Saturday, November 16th. 

It was a longer cruise this time (6 nights almost a half day), and was our best to date. We had a lot of great speakers, including Dr. Darrel Ray from Recovering From Religion, Bridgett Crutchfield, one of BN’s board members, and the Detroit affiliate lead organizer, Phil Session from the Freethinker’s Association of Central Texas and Austin Atheists Helping the Homeless, (formerly with the Atheist Community of Austin). We also had Brandi Alexander from Compassion & Choices, who discussed death with dignity, and end of life preparation.

It wasn’t just a fun trip, it was educational and full of outreach. And it is indeed a very aggressive event. Because doing a convention on a cruise can intimidating for some. You have to prepare financially for sure; because we advertise a year ahead and cruises can be paid in deposits, we try to assist with as much information as possible. But it can still be overwhelming.  
However, it was a great way to bring people together. For many of our attendees, it’s their first time on a cruise. This is an awesome opportunity for everyone to get to know their fellow nonbelievers in an enclosed space for an extended period of time.

It builds the camaraderie and community that we so often seek.

Jacobsen: When you get the feedback from participants and from people who have been invited as speakers, how do you incorporate that into your decision-making processes for the next year, for an improved cruise?

Thomas: I start thinking about the next year while already on board for the current year. My mind is never at rest; I am always in planning mode. And while we receive feedback throughout the cruise, the last day of the convention portion is when the decision to proceed for the following year is cemented. Because that is our “BN Changes Lives” session. 

Attendees stand up in front of the conference room, and share their “testimonies” and experiences. We share, we laugh, and we cry. Sure, it tends to coincide with the all you can drink (alcoholic beverages) cocktail reception that is reserved for all on board groups, but that is beside the point [laughing].

Everyone there remarks that they had such a wonderful time, and how important BN is. In that space, in that time, we already know that we’re going to plan this for the following year. 

There are some amazing pictures that have already been shared. Which helps with our communication and seeing feedback during the event. And of course, we solicit feedback once it has concluded. 

One thing that has improved from the first year to this is our communication with each other. No matter the problems, they are usually resolved before leaving the cruise, which has been great. 
There may be some feedback that we don’t receive right away, or not until the event approaches. But we can use the information to plan for the following year.

Jacobsen: Life is unpredictable, even for the best of plans. Accidents can arise given the size of the events. What happened on the Friday of the cruise?

Thomas: Before I get into that – during the cruise, we went to Hell [Laughing]. There is a town called Hell on Grand Cayman Island that we visited; it’s centered around a black limestone formation in the area.  

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Thomas: One of our attendees was accidentally left behind as we were preparing to leave the port. For my part, I was trying to keep track of everyone in our group, including my youngest son and my husband, who has a serious medical condition. Plus, it was very hot that day, so our minds slipped.

She did get back to the ship on time, and was understandably upset. However, we were able to hash that out, which was great. So, we left someone in Hell by mistake [Laughing].  Also, there were a few people that were treated for heat exhaustion at that port. As you said, things can get unpredictable, and good preparation is key.

On that Friday night, completely unrelated to our group, there was a man who attempted to hand someone his room key from a deck above and fell! There was immediate attention to the situation, but he ended up dying from his injuries. There was even a story in the New York Daily News about this. 
While this was very tragic, it most likely could have been avoided. I can only speculate, but due to the abundance of alcohol available on cruises, it can factor into people making unwise decisions.

Security immediately blocked off the area, and were able to get witness statements. A few of our group members were near the area when the incident occurred; I’m not sure if they witnessed it entirely. Ironically, some of us were on the same deck around that same time, but on the other side of the ship. So we were completely unaware of what happened until we were back home. 

I have to commend the high level of care that Carnival took to make sure that this wasn’t widespread before our departure. 

Jacobsen: What can people hope and expect for 2020?

Thomas: I already booked our group for 2020; we will be sailing on the Carnival Magic. I will be writing a public Patreon post about the “magic” of BN SeaCon 2019. 

The cruise will be longer, 7 nights this time. We will start promoting shortly. And we expect more interactive engagement, and of course, we would like more people to attend. 

Because this was a transitional year for this event, I did all the of planning this time. I spearheaded logistics for the attendees, getting their cabins assigned, and making sure everything was set in proper order. 

Also, the fundraising and programming was done the way I really wanted, but with input from others. This was significant because I’ve expanded my horizons as an organizer, and my focus is always in the best interest of the group, and how we can all achieve a great experience.

And this was not lost on the attendees and speakers; they had a really great time. In 2020, there will be expanded programming, and not just in speaker presentations. This year, we introduced Salsa lessons from one of our attendees; he is a dance instructor.

It was well received, We will include them in 2020. Others on the cruise who aren’t officially a part of the convention may also want to attend on the hush-hush [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Thomas: Some attendees may not want to exit on the ports of call, as is quite common. There will be 4 next year, so hopefully everyone will have a well rounded experience. But if the choice is made to stay onboard, there are some great activities that people can partake in – both with the cruise line and part of BN SeaCon 2020. 

That is part of the overall experience that we want to provide.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Mandisa.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Faye 4 – Age Wins: It Always Wins

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2019/12/31

Faye Girsh is the Founder and the Past President of the Hemlock Society of San Diego. She was the President of the National Hemlock Society (Defunct) and the World Federation of RTD Societies (Extant). Currently, she is on the Advisory Board of the Final Exit Network and the Euthanasia Research and Guidance Organization. Here we talk about age, time, and death.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: We get old. We die. Whether now or in the future, we will hit limits. We will realize or have realized physical or mental decline – how ever subtle through the wear of time. When does this realization hit people?

Faye Girsh: For some it’s when someone they care about declines, suffers, dies from a difficult condition. There are more ways to expose people now to the problems with prolonged dying — movies, books, public exchanges — are helping to bring people out of denial. But it is very slow.

Jacobsen: Does this never hit some people?

Girsh: And their loved ones. Though grief and loss are painful, some families are so unwilling to acknowledge that death is natural and unavoidable that when sickness, disability and death come they are in despair, shock, rage, denial. Religion and a belief in the afterlife can be a great comfort to help people “pass” since they know they will be “in the arms of Jesus” that there is “eternal life” and the loved ones will be reunited. Of course, religion which preaches the value of life — regardless of quality — or in the power of prayer, or that miracles will happen — does not make death easier to face.

Jacobsen: Are there sex and gender differences here? I note some nation-states where men die dramatically earlier than women, for instance.

Girsh: I don’t know any studies on gender differences in accepting death or on actual mortality. 

Jacobsen: What are the first plans for individuals considering death in a rational manner?

Girsh: Start talking about in the home, around the death of pets, grandparents. Teach about how/why people die in the schools. Take kids to nursing homes, ICUs, hospices and see how fighting death vs accepting it can make a difference. Never deny that losing a person to death can be painful, heart breaking, disruptive, life-shattering. People should experience these emotions and go to grief support groups for help but still be able to have a rational attitude toward the inevitability of death. 

Jacobsen: What reasons for Rational Suicide are completely irrational?

Girsh: I think it is not rational to consider ending a life where there is no long term physical or mental suffering, that it is done on impulse when life looks hopeless for a short time. It would be good to have suicidal people know they can help with a more peaceful, rather than a violent lonely one, if they could talk to someone who could present alternatives to their situations and also offer help for a peaceful death. I’m not sure we could agree on what’s rational although we are expanding our criteria for who is eligible for help to die. I live with old people, many of whom feel their lives are over and would be thankful for help and for acceptance but society is not ready to provide that. Dementia is the worst problem facing us now and a rational ending means taking your own life while it still has quality — really a sad thing to have to do. Someone said: May you live as long as you want to and may you want to as long as you live. Maybe too simplistic: it is complex question. Shakespeare dealt with it eloquently: To be or not to be…

Jacobsen: We can cover some more of this in the next session, perhaps, Faye.

Girsh: Sure.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Faye.

Girsh: And thanks for the little push. It’s helpful to ponder these profound questions.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Interview with Simone Krüsi – Office Manager/Secretary General, Secretariat of the Freethinkers Association of Switzerland

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2019/12/30

Simone Krüsi is the Office Manager/Secretary General in the Secretariat (National Committee) of the Freethinkers Association of Switzerland. She studied German language and literature, ethnology, European history, and Balkan Studies at Universities of Freiburg i. Ue., Zurich and Vienna. She worked for the “Tagesschau” or a news programme of the Swiss broadcasting company SRF.

Here we talk about her life, work, and views.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What are some of the facets of family and personal background important for personal growth over time?

Simone Krüsi: If I talk about my own background, I’ve always read a lot since I was a kid. Especially literature. That helped and helps me to understand life better and better. Salman Rushdie, whom we recently awarded this year’s Swiss Freethinker Award, said at our event: “In an age of lies – which I think is the age we live in – paradoxically, it may be a valuable thing to have literature around, trying desperately to tell the truth.” With these words, he echoed my exact sentiments.

Jacobsen: If we look at some of the community events for freethinkers one Switzerland, what are they? How are these impacted the size and the mandate of the Freethinkers Association of Switzerland?

Krüsi: The Freethinkers are organized in eleven regional sections under the national umbrella organization, the Freethinkers Association of Switzerland (FAoS). The FAoS and its regional sections regularly organize talks, panels, cultural events, and the like. The World Humanist Day (21st June) and the Human Rights Day (10th December) form an inherent part of our calendar. Once every two years we host the science festival Denkfest that extends over several days. In addition, several of our sections host social meet-ups, usually on a monthly basis, and organize talks and debates. Of course, we are always happy when non-members visit our events and thus become aware of us and as a consequence perhaps join or subscribe to our magazine. 

Jacobsen: How does the Freethinkers Association of Switzerland impact the political and social scene of Switzerland? 

Krüsi: Our goal is clear: to influence in political decision-making. Specifically, we participate in consultations on legislative changes that affect our core concerns. Occasionally, we launch referendums, if a change in law runs counter to the aims of a secular state. Last year we passed a resolution calling for the abolition of the ban on blasphemy, which still exists in Switzerland.

As far as the social scene is concerned, we want to show people that you can also be happy and joyful without God. We get involved in ethical-philosophical debates. And we also offer very concrete things: We train humanistic celebrants who organize funerals, weddings or naming ceremonies for newborns. In doing so, the focus is not on gods, but always on the human being. 

Jacobsen: As the General Manager of the Freethinkers Association of Switzerland, what tasks and responsibilities come with the position?

Krüsi: I take care of a lot of things. I have an open ear and a helping hand for everyone – for members as well as for outsiders. These are often media representatives, or even people who come to us with specific questions, for example about leaving the church. I am also active as an editor and help with the organization of our numerous events. I want to be there for everyone – which is not always easy because I only work part-time. Fortunately, however, we can take additional part-timers on board in 2020 and hopefully make our presence even more visible.

Jacobsen: What are some activities of community for young people? What are some activities of community for old people?

Krüsi: Every summer we organize Camp Quest, a scientific-humanistic summer camp for children and youths between nine and 15 years of age. We try to encourage them to think for themselves in a playful way. The regular meetings of the individual sections are certainly interesting for older people. In addition, we are in the process of introducing a humanistic counselling as an alternative to confessional pastoral care. It will not be tailored specifically to the elderly, but we certainly want to service them, for example in old people’s homes or hospitals.

Jacobsen: Who are currently opposed to the work of freethinkers in Switzerland? Why them? How are they acting this opposition to Freethought?

Krüsi: “Opposition” may not be the right term to use. But our national parliament, for example, is lagging behind social developments in certain aspects: a good quarter of the Swiss population is non-religious – but there are not many politicians who are decidedly committed to secular concerns. That being said, things have improved a little recently: we had national elections this autumn and the parliament has become younger, which in this case also means that it has become more secular.

Also at the cantonal level (Switzerland consists of 26 cantons and has a federal structure), there are some worrying tendencies: The Canton of Zurich (the most populous canton in Switzerland), for example, intends to finance education for imams. And the Government is also examining a bill, which would allow the State to enter contractual agreements with currently non-recognized religious communities. We are observing this process very carefully and are prepared to bring the bill to the polls through a referendum if it runs counter to the aims of a secular state.

Jacobsen: How is Freethought different in Switzerland than in other European countries? Why is this the case?

Krüsi: We see ourselves as a part of the international humanist community. We, therefore, share many interests and aims with our sister organizations in the European Humanist Federation and Humanists International. One thing, however, differs from country to country: the degree of overlap of church and state. Depending on local conditions, humanist organizations strive for different changes to the status quo. The Humanistische Verband in Germany aims to become state-recognized as a life stance organization across the country. Switzerland also has state-recognized and «free-floating» faith groups. We, however, strive for a clear separation of church and religious entities, i. e. our position is that faith groups should not be granted any privileges that are out of reach for other civil organizations.

Jacobsen: What are your hopes for the community of freethinkers moving forward?

Krüsi: To some degree, our aim is to become redundant as a lobby group for the nonreligious – this could be the case once state and churches have become properly disentangled, ethics has replaced religious education in public schools, and social care is no longer outsourced to religious organizations. But for the time being, we’re not exactly out of work. And even in a more secular Switzerland, we’d probably continue to organize talks, debates, science festivals, summer camps and the like.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Simone.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Mandisa 48 – Music and Pop Culture

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2019/12/30

Mandisa Thomas, a native of New York City, is the founder and President of Black Nonbelievers, Inc. Although never formally indoctrinated into belief, Mandisa was heavily exposed to Christianity, Black Nationalism, and Islam. As a child she loved reading, and enjoyed various tales of Gods from different cultures, including Greek and Ghanaian. “Through reading these stories and being taught about other cultures at an early age, I quickly noticed that there were similarities and differences between those deities and the God of the Christian Bible. I couldn’t help but wonder what made this God so special that he warrants such prevalence today,” she recalls.

Mandisa has many media appearances to her credit, including CBS Sunday MorningCNN.com, and Playboy, The Humanist, and JET magazines. She has been a guest on podcasts such as The Humanist Hour and Ask an Atheist, as well as the documentaries Contradiction and My Week in Atheism. Mandisa currently serves on the Board for American Atheists and the American Humanist Association, and previously for Foundation Beyond Belief, the 2016 Reason Rally Coalition, and the Secular Coalition for America. She is also an active speaker and has presented at conferences/conventions for the Freedom from Religion Foundation, Secular Student Alliance, and many others.

In 2019, Mandisa was the recipient of the Secular Student Alliance’s Backbone Award and named the Freedom from Religion Foundation’s Freethought Heroine. She was also the Unitarian Universalist Humanist Association’s Person of the Year 2018.

As the president of Black Nonbelievers, Inc., Mandisa encourages more Blacks to come out and stand strong with their nonbelief in the face of such strong religious overtones.

“The more we make our presence known, the better our chances of working together to turn around some of the disparities we face. We are NOT alone.”

Here, we talk about music and pop culture.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Sometimes artists can do 180s or 100s or some turning that’s quite dramatic from their standard repertoire, or what’s seen as their standard repertoire of music. What happened in the culture, recently? Why is this surprising in some ways and not in others?

Mandisa ThomasMusic tends to be fluid, and many artists have their creative streaks. Some may change the direction of their music depending on personal and societal factors. This has been the case with the music and visual arts as well.

However recently, Kanye West, who’s now considered a controversial artist, released an album called Jesus Is King. He seems to have gone sort of full right-wing, which has aligned with his now-political views, and being an open Trump supporter.

Now, he’s on what appears to be an evangelical tear with his beliefs. He’s even established a “church” service, which is mostly about music. But it still reinforces belief in some way. I’ve seen a change in Kanye and his musical direction, as well as how he carries himself, ever since the mid-2000’s. He’s always been pretty arrogant, but he was also a good producer of not only his own, but other people’s music. His first three albums were really good in my opinion. But he started shifting and become more of a caricature. This new album appears to be no different. He’s just now gone almost completely right, if you will. Not left, but right [Laughing], it’s very interesting to observe his antics, and how it’s been reflected in his work. It’s not indicative of a person with a sound mind, and this has been confirmed by a number of media appearances and reports over the years.

Jacobsen: Is this a common trend in American music, where people seem edgy and question some of the status quo of the culture, eventually, some, do a complete turn to, more or less, the standard in the society while seeming revolutionary?

Mandisa: I wouldn’t say it’s standard. There are quite a few artists who expand their creative horizons, and it reflects in their music. Some of them may switch gears from time to time. There have also been American artists who have used their music to challenge the political status quo. They’ve totally discussed controversial topics in their lyrics. Take some Christian artists, for example. Most of the time, they stick with the traditional “I love the Lord” format. However, during the 1990’s, a gospel group called The Winans (from the prestigious Winans gospel music family) started speaking more about the atrocities that were taking place throughout the world, and making change for the betterment of humanity. This has been true for the hip-hop genre as well. Music, as well as comedy, have always been those places to challenge ideas and express dissent with what’s going on in society. But for artists to do a complete 180, as we described in Kanye’s case, tends to be very rare.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity in your time, Mandisa.

Mandisa: You’re welcome. Thank you.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Takudzwa 18 – Prayers in the Public Organizations and in Political Offices

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2019/12/29

Takudzwa Mazwienduna is the informal leader of Zimbabwean Secular Alliance and a member of the Humanist Society of Zimbabwe. This educational series will explore secularism in Zimbabwe from an organizational perspectiveand some more.

Here we talk about prayers in public organizations.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Other countries have prayers in some public organizations. Is this a problem in Zimbabwe?

Takudzwa Mazwienduna: It is definitely a problem in Zimbabwe. Meetings in any professional place always start with an opening prayer and it has become a norm, people would think something is wrong if a prayer wasn’t part of any formal agenda.

Jacobsen: Other nations have prayers done by political officials, public servants. Is this a problem in Zimbabwe?

Mazwienduna: Definitely a problem. The Humanist Society of Zimbabwe has managed to get apologies from some public officials after some of our members complained about it, but the problem is persistent and religiosity is generally understood as political goodwill and mileage in Zimbabwe. Even our president wears robes from churches he has never attended before just to ensure that he gets their votes

Jacobsen: What could be an equivalent, if desired, in a secular setting such as in the Humanist Society of Zimbabwe?

Mazwienduna: The purpose of prayer is supposedly to solve problems and foster hope. As the Humanist Society of Zimbabwe, we can do that without bending our knees, clasping our hands or mumbling to invisible people. The ritualistic essence of prayer is irrelevant to the community.

Jacobsen: Also, we’ve been on this for some time now. Any review updates for progress in 2019 as a whole?

Mazwienduna: 2019 has been a tough year for Zimbabweans. Most people are trying to survive really given the severe economic crisis and gloomy political climate. The situation is probably a lot worse than Venezuela and we are almost in the same place as we were in 2008 when a loaf of bread cost ZW$5 trillion because of hyperinflation. The Humanist Society of Zimbabwe has not been able to mobilize primarily because of that. On the bright side however, we managed to register the society as a formal organization and it has been the biggest development this year.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Takudzwa.

Mazwienduna: Always a pleasure Scott.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Mandisa 47 – Timing Secular Conference Outreach

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2019/12/28

Mandisa Thomas, a native of New York City, is the founder and President of Black Nonbelievers, Inc. Although never formally indoctrinated into belief, Mandisa was heavily exposed to Christianity, Black Nationalism, and Islam. As a child she loved reading, and enjoyed various tales of Gods from different cultures, including Greek and Ghanaian. “Through reading these stories and being taught about other cultures at an early age, I quickly noticed that there were similarities and differences between those deities and the God of the Christian Bible. I couldn’t help but wonder what made this God so special that he warrants such prevalence today,” she recalls.

Mandisa has many media appearances to her credit, including CBS Sunday MorningCNN.com, and Playboy, The Humanist, and JET magazines. She has been a guest on podcasts such as The Humanist Hour and Ask an Atheist, as well as the documentaries Contradiction and My Week in Atheism. Mandisa currently serves on the Board for American Atheists and the American Humanist Association, and previously for Foundation Beyond Belief, the 2016 Reason Rally Coalition, and the Secular Coalition for America. She is also an active speaker and has presented at conferences/conventions for the Freedom from Religion Foundation, Secular Student Alliance, and many others.

In 2019, Mandisa was the recipient of the Secular Student Alliance’s Backbone Award and named the Freedom from Religion Foundation’s Freethought Heroine. She was also the Unitarian Universalist Humanist Association’s Person of the Year 2018.

As the president of Black Nonbelievers, Inc., Mandisa encourages more Blacks to come out and stand strong with their nonbelief in the face of such strong religious overtones.

“The more we make our presence known, the better our chances of working together to turn around some of the disparities we face. We are NOT alone.”

Here, we talk about the timings of outreach for running secular conferences in fast and slow ways.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: There are times to reach out fast and slow with conferences. What are some considerations here?

Mandisa Thomas: It depends on the time frame of each event, and also when you start advertising and promoting. There are some events that launch a few months before the date. Others, like the ones that I plan, tend to be approx. about a year in advance. There’s usually plenty of time to contact folks, and to follow up if you receive no response. For a shorter time frame, say 3 to 6 months, it’s good to follow up within the initial 2 to 3 weeks. With shorter term planned events, the details should be firmly in place. And one should request a 24 to 48-hour response time for speakers, volunteers and exhibitors.  If the event is a further out – a year, for example, you can probably give yourself about 2 to 3 months before reaching out again. There is still enough flexibility in the planning phase at that point, and changes can be made with fewer penalties if done well in advance. And as a general rule, quicker response times can show commitment and efficiency. Another major factor is how quickly one works. I use myself as an example all the time. I tend to have a million things going on at once, which can often trigger anxiety –  something that admittedly I struggle with. However, I set the expectation that a good planner, at least one who has entry-level skills, should be following up 2 to 3 weeks after initial contact. There should be a rapid turnaround time for the first month or two, especially with the event planned further out. Afterwards, there can be some leeway with communication until the date (or dates) come closer.

Jacobsen: If someone was expecting you to reach out to them again, and if someone was angry when you reached out when reaching out much later when reaching out past expected, how do you mediate the emotions there and manage that difficult reaction?

Thomas: That is an interesting one. If you are a speaker, and we need information, sometimes, one or both parties may drop the ball. I always try to start with an apology, and err in favour of the invited. I always try to clarify whether I am going to be the one to follow up or if they should get back to me within a certain time. In many cases, it can be both.

Of course, as being human beings, we do not always read things in detail. However, it is always good to try and review all correspondence to see who was supposed to follow up with whom, while not placing blame.

Once you point the finger, it never goes well [Laughing]. As the organizer, though, it is good to put your best foot forward and say, “I will review my notes. I will make sure that I will respond in a more timely manner,” just to take that pressure off.

If something falls through the cracks, then that is not the fault of the person. If it is an attendee or a vendor, then, if they want your business, they should be following up with you, and not the other way around. The expectation is that the person who wants the business should respond in a certain time period.

It is always formalities, “My apologies…. Such and such a thing happened,” if some tensions are there. You are acknowledging that something has faltered, and that hopefully, we can resolve the issue and move forward.

Jacobsen: What about a case, more difficult, of further belligerence and forfeiting commitment to the organization and just want to vent now? Something akin to a soliloquy argument.

Thomas: No one should be subjected to unreasonably rude, or even abusive behaviour, especially if apologies and resolutions have already been introduced. There are limits. 

You can always try to make things right. And hopefully, that will move the conversation forward and alleviate any tensions. But if that is not the case, and if the person is obstinate, then it might be just best to sever that relationship and then just move on to another vendor, speaker, or if another person has paid a certain amount of money for attendance – depending on the terms – then you can issue a refund and say, “Have a nice day.”

No one should have to endure abuse for someone being angry. Perhaps one can always ask, “Why don’t we come back to this another day? When things have calmed down.” That is not always realistic in the business world [Laughing]. But it is always best to try to resolve these things as quickly as possible and then hopefully maintain a positive working relationship.

Jacobsen: I am reminded of one of your topics. It was either titled or quoted, ‘Everyone ain’t goin’ to make it.’

Thomas: That’s correct [Laughing].

Jacobsen: That applies to some of our conversations including this one.

Thomas: That’s true. In my professional capacity, I have always found that it is best to err on the side of caution regarding what is best for all parties. If there is a way to resolve conflicts amicably, then that’s always best. However, it is not always possible. We should be prepared to say, “Hey, this is not something that I will or can deal with.” Some people think that you should just take whatever they give you. It is not only unfair, again it is abusive. 

No one in a service capacity should have to endure abuse by a customer, boss or other authority. Yes, there are some folks who cannot resolve things in an amicable manner. In those cases, you may have to simply end things amicably, yet immediately. It is possible to keep one’s peace of mind in the process of working on intense projects – that’s what I try to remind myself.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Mandisa.

Thomas: Thank you.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Interview with Eric Townson – Co-Organizer, Humanism With Heart

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2019/12/27

Eric Townson is one of the organizers for Humanism With Heart. Here we talk about some of his family and personal background, Unitarian Universalism, Humanism, and Humanism With Heart.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: A brief backdrop for some people reading this today. What is some brief family background, some personal background, or some context as to your personal journey into this world view, life stance, and so on?

Eric Townson: I grew up in a remote Appalachian town in Western North Carolina where most people held conservative views that were in stark contrast to my family’s progressive views. My father was an architect and my mother was an English teacher. I feel fortunate that they taught me to rise above the bigotry, homophobia, and sexism I faced daily as a child. I’m also grateful that they gave me a lot of freedom to explore ideas and culture.

At age 13, I went through formal education in Episcopalian doctrine, and was confirmed in the Episcopal church. Sometime after that, on a Sunday morning on the way to church with my mom and sister, I expressed to my mom that I wasn’t enjoying the services. I described to her the intense feelings of what I now know as cognitive dissonance. She said that I had been instructed in the church’s teachings and I was old enough to decide whether I wanted to attend. She turned the car around, and after that we rarely went to church.

This set me on a journey to develop a worldview that could help me make sense of life. I was compelled to be a seeker of truth and meaning because my parents were unhappy alcoholics even though they had attained much of “The American Dream”. As a child I would sometimes experience wonderful feelings of inner peace when I was consumed by the gorgeous nature of Appalachia. I yearned to feel connected to something much larger than my individual self. And yet, I was also deeply inspired by science and technology starting from when I watched the Apollo 11 moon landing at age 7.

Trying to reconcile my spiritual feelings and desires with a scientific perspective was a difficult process because I found so little support. I came across and explored a lot of things that promised to make me happy, only to be disappointed when it became clear that it was yet more unfounded nonsense. I didn’t fit well with most hardline atheists, and even less so with most religious people, and this left me philosophically isolated much of my life.

At age 15 I was exposed to Alan Watts, a humanistic thinker who presented Buddhism as a spiritual undertaking to “lose oneself” in the here and now. His depiction of Buddhism was stripped of supernatural concepts such as reincarnation, and I found myself coming back to his teachings over the years.

When I was in college I was “proselytized” atheism by the head of the philosophy department. He argued that trying to conceptualize a god was deeply problematic and ultimately provided no helpful purpose. This made sense to me and after that I started formally referring to myself as an atheist.

Soon after I came out as an atheist, a religious friend countered me by saying “there has to be something bigger than us”. And that also made sense to me and stuck with me all these years.

I often jokingly refer to myself as the world’s worst atheist because I spend so much time contemplating all the things that I have no control over that are utterly essential to “me”. For example, I cannot claim responsibility for my genetics, all the culture that has been absorbed into me, my respiration, the beating of my heart, how my brain works, my mostly privileged upbringing, and on and on. I see myself, not as a fixed thing, but a continual, ever-changing process.

I am still a seeker of truth and meaning, but at this middle-aged point in life, I am finally content with my worldview and the answers I have found that are based in science. I’ve loosely adopted Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) as a personal spiritual framework, and I highly recommend it to anyone trying to reconcile science and spirituality.

ACT depicts the human condition as a double-edged sword dealt to us by evolution. We are the only animals that possess language beyond rudimentary elements such as simple vocalizations. The power of language is enormous. We now know that it is the basis for most of memory and our sense of identity. It also enables us to record and communicate recipes for everything from how to bake a cake, to how to sequence a genome. It enables us to coordinate in extremely sophisticated ways as we collectively pursue things like science. And yet, it is also what enabled the Holocaust and the nuclear bomb. And, it is what causes us to be the most anxious animal on the planet because we are the only creatures that are aware of our own mortality. We constantly seek meaning, and yet even deeply religious people like Mother Teresa, can experience the “dark night of the soul”.

ACT attempts to help us by teasing out the “active ingredients” in Buddhism and other philosophical systems and practices. For example, it advocates developing a slight detachment from our thought streams in order to stop fueling harmful levels of anxiety. And yet, ACT also urges us to embrace and judiciously exercise the immense power that language affords us.

Jacobsen: So, let’s talk about Humanism with Heart, which is the name of the group. Why found it? What is its purpose? And what are some of the activities?

Townson: I became a Unitarian-Universalist (UU) about 10 years ago because UU has a deep connection with humanism and is very accepting of atheists and agnostics. I joined the Unitarian-Universalist Fellowship of Winston-Salem (https://uufws.org) because over half of our congregation, including our minister, identify as humanists, and many others are humanistic in their outlook.

I started Humanism with Heart because I wanted a forum to explore, through the lens of natural philosophy, all kinds of topics, including the deepest questions in life. I also wanted a way to make social connections with other humanists.

We have the full support of our UU congregation and are affiliated with the UU Humanist Association. We are aligned with the American Humanist Association (AHA) and take much of the group’s description from the most recent Humanist Manifesto. We often have AHA speakers present to our group through web conference.

We have found social media such as Meetup to be a great way to attract attendees. Our group will often be people’s first exposure to UU and humanism.

Our meetings typically have 10 to 20 attendees, which is a good size to keep things from getting stale, and yet small enough to afford meaningful connections to form.

I chose to use heart in the name to signal that we weren’t a bunch of angry atheists railing against religion, and were, for example, much more interested in exploring why religion is so pervasive in human culture. And, in fact, we now have several regular attendees with divinity backgrounds. The co-organizer for the group had attained two divinity degrees before having a crisis of faith that led him out of Christianity. Other regulars include a 30-year Mennonite missionary to Africa, a retired Moravian minister who was the first Moravian since the 1700’s to be convicted of heresy, and an ex-Anglican priest.

My wife suggested we call it Humanism with Heart and not Humanists with Heart, because she likes to give herself freedom to evolve, and avoids labeling herself. This also makes it fit well with UU because we are non-doctrinal and call ourselves to support one another in our unique, personal development.

Jacobsen: Does religious humanism seem like the identical principles of humanism plus the sensibility of just community, ritual, and something other than oneself? That certain instinctual feeling one gets in community and ritual.

Townson: Yes. That’s really a nice way to put that. For me, it’s a reminder to every now and again, look away from the gizmos and gadgets I’m so glued to,  and remember, “Holy cow … existence!” [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Townson: I think this ability to be struck by awe and wonder is available to all of us. UU for me, when it is at its best, helps me experience moments of transcendence in ways that are still compatible with the scientific materialism at the core of my worldview.

Community is the other crucial component of religious humanism. Coming together in community is difficult, because even when we are mostly like-minded, we will always find ourselves splitting philosophical hairs until we reach points of disagreement. And yet, I feel it’s been psychologically healthy for me to be part of a community.

I think the truly scientific mind is one that’s open and even ready to challenge things that you might cherish. You’re probably familiar with the notion that there are parts of our brain that are aware of our intention to make a decision before becoming consciously aware of that ourselves.

Jacobsen: Yes, this is Benjamin Libet’s research. I remember asking one of the leading psychologists. Actually, the leading Canadian psychologist living or dead, Albert Bandura, during a book signing once.

He noted that there are some flaws in the research, but this was years ago when he put out his book, Moral DisengagementI know that Benjamin Libet’s research has been under more scrutiny as of recent.

Townson: Yes. That’s exactly where I was going with bringing this up. Sam Harris and others see much of our behavior as highly deterministic. I find this very appealing because it helps me be more compassionate with myself and others – a very UU compatible sentiment. So, it was a bit difficult for me to have some of the scientific basis for this view called into question. That’s the tough thing about being a scientific skeptic. We must be open to modifying previously accepted ideas as new information becomes known, and this is often a somewhat difficult process. Being in a community with others, brings me into contact with lots of different ideas, and this similarly causes me to stretch and challenge things I hold dear, but in the end, I feel like I’m better for it.

Jacobsen: How are you hoping to develop Humanism with Heart into the future?

Townson: At this stage we’re focusing more on facilitating discussion in our meetings as opposed to being so much about presentation and education. We find that our members prefer this approach and I think we’ll continue to see some growth in our attendance. We still provide a good bit of education, but it’s working better to open up to allow for more participation.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Eric.

Townson: Thank you.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Shirley 6 – Modern Social Movements

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2019/12/27

Shirley Rivera is the Founder and President of the Ateístas de Puerto Rico. The intent is to learn about Puerto Rican atheism and culture, as an educational series.

Here we talk about modern social movements.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, we are a couple of years or more into the more prominent #MeToo movement starting with Tarana Burke. Also, it took off with some boost from Alyssa Milano. Now, this is a general cultural problem indicating some social pathologies, where women did not feel heard. Therefore, they spoke out.

At the same time, there can arise other issues. In general terms, what are some of those other issues? How are we finding this out in real-time?

Shirley Rivera: Basically, since this #MeToo movement came up, it is taking more of an irrational side, avoiding, naturally, the way we are, how we relate, how couples relate, how male and female relate. I think when you touch that, when you cut that natural flirtation. The way males and females interact.

It is the way people start. They approach each other in a certain way. In this, it comes to #MeToo. You go on a date with someone. You meet them on the internet. They are not having this natural way in life in which people interact. So, all types of interactions become bad, become harassment.

I see a male tell me a compliment. That’s harassment. What is harassment? What type of compliment is harassment? What type of compliment is not harassment? I cannot tell someone that they have pretty hair because this means that I want to fuck her. [Laughing] where do you put that line?

I am confused. I am a female. In the #MeToo movement, I think it is not working. I think it is coming into how male and female interact in a natural, proper way. You make a date and discover, and meet, that person. It is as if all types of approach are wrong.

I wish that I can know which is the right way to approach somebody and the wrong way to approach somebody. It looks like all forms of approach are wrong. Because you have to ask for consent. How will I know? Will I have to call my lawyer to say, “Good morning”? Do I need to call my lawyer to say, “Your hair is beautiful”? What is harassment? What is not harassment?

We have to start with that. What is harassment? Because a white male said something to you. What if a Mexican or Dominican, or Puerto Rican? If a white guy, you have a 90% probability of being burned. If you say any type of normal comment, you let somebody know that she is pretty.

That becomes harassment. So, where is the line? What is harassment and not harassment? I think that will be a good conversation, an open one. Because, at the beginning, all these harassment movements were because some females had to do certain stuff to reach a status or a position.

A male will follow or harass in an industry. If you do not consent or you do not want that person or reject them clearly, and if they are persistent, then that will be harassment. But if someone thinks you’re pretty sporadically or approaches, and if you say, “No,” or if they say, “I want to meet you,” then that person continues that becomes harassment.

If a boy told me, “I think you’re pretty,” and asked for the phone number, I have two answers, “Yes,” or “No.” If I say, “No,” he has to stop. If he doesn’t stop, then it is harassment. It is pretty much in that line.

Jacobsen: What about the different forms of consent? You asked the question, “What is consent?” I have heard many definitions of it, what has been seen as a major, medium, and minor issue depending on the context.

Rivera: Body language can count as consent. Continuing to approach a person can be consent, if we are in the bed, and I have my clothes off, and if I decide that I do not consent, you have to get out of the room. If I do not consent, and if I continue to have a relationship with someone, I will not believe you.

If you do not have consent and do not believe in that guy, why go to his house? Why keep dating him? No, I think it is body language. We feel. We assume. If I approach this guy, and this guy talk back to me, and if this guy takes me out to dinner, then this will tell me that this guy has an interest in me.

Maybe, I can get what I want from him. Maybe, I can go home tonight. This is how people approach each other. This is natural. You want to talk with him, have sex with him. But in his mind, it is “just, just, just.” It means that in his mind; he has a probability of being with the girl.

I think this is all about it. We all assume because this is what always happened. With all this now, and with all these different interpretations of consent, everyone gets confused. To me, it can be physical or an approach consent. I keep dating with you, keep talking with you.

If I am going to go to a room with you, it is clear you want to have sex with me. If you do not give consent, then you are not clear on having sex with the person. If you want to have sex with the person, then you need to be more clear. If you want to have sex with the person, it doesn’t mean that he can do anything with that person.

But I need to be more clear about what I want – to go home and have some drinks or watch a movie. We can give all the responsibility to the males. “Okay, I go to your house and am unclear why I went there. He went to touch me.” He was assuming. He will feel guilty.

I don’t think it is good to put the whole guilt on one person. I think more people need to be more clear and express themselves from the beginning and be very clear. I don’t think it is fair when a male go to a female’s house, watch movie, and then they change their mind.

I don’t think it is fair for either. I think males and females need to be more clear. Most of these cases have the female claiming, “He has power. I don’t need to say, ‘No.’” Because I don’t know. I am currently President of the Atheists of Puerto Rico. The men cannot say, “No,” to me because they are intimidated. If he forces you to go to his house, then it is assault, rape.

This is the tricky part, where I don’t see how males can protect themselves in these situations. Now, guys don’t want to date or go out with us. We don’t get invitations. They don’t know what to do with us. It comes to the pointing of messing with human relationships, with male and female relationships.

It is ruining everything. A guy may not want to go home with a person because he might get accused of sexual assault. Maybe, it is not the case with me. But other people will think about that. I see guys, now. They use Tinder because they don’t want to meet anybody in person. They just want someone who wants to have sex.

Now, we are turning relationships into sex, not feelings, not meeting a person in a coffee shop, or falling in love. Because both are scared. She is scared that he is a sexual predator. He is scared that she is complaining about everything. So, we are killing all of that.

Of course, in the meantime, it was not fair. We still see females getting raped. But if you see the rape, it is always in the house, the same family members. You don’t see this common thing about a guy who drinks and then rapes you. It happens, but it is not common.

Your uncle, your grandfather, your stepfather, that is more common. Most of the females who have been raped have been because of family members. How do we translate this into this? Why do we not focus on statistics? They say girls 12-16 are the majority victims of the rape. Why do we not focus on them?

It doesn’t make any sense.

Jacobsen: How can we use the empirical evidence that we have now, and various statistics – one of the aforementioned, to build targeted concerns rather than general concerns? Everyone would agree, probably, that sexual assault or sexual violence against men or women, by men against men, by men against women, by women against women, by women against men, is a problem.

The question then becomes in what way and what demographics given the evidence that we do have. Of course, for men and women, there will be underreporting. There will be botched handling of some cases. In the terms of using the evidence that we have, or that’s known to you, what will be a way to use that to make our concerns more concrete, more precise, and more scientific?

Rivera: I think the statistics are there. We have to know how to target those real victims. Education starts from there. If we do the whole movement, then we will focus on sexual harassment in labour. Human resources already do all of that. Why the levels of child pornography to minor? The real ones.

We can say, “Most females are less interested in filing a complaint or an allegation.” Or we can say, “Males who rape. They are more interested in younger girls because they have no way to defend themselves. They are an easy target to them,” which makes sense.

Because these people who love to do this. They are looking for domination. A little 16-year-old girl, he can dominate her. She will not talk about it. In the case of a female with 25 or 30 years, it is highly probable that she will talk about it. She will report. She does not have to go tom the parents. She can feel that she can go to straight to the company.

It is about what is easy. All female do these complaints. Most of the focus is on the older females. Something is wrong there. When you continually see this focus, it is a campaign of anti-males. It is not about women’s rights (at that point). As if, we just hate them. We want you to hate them too.

Jacobsen: Can you break that down more?

Rivera: From my perspective, as I have seen over the last, probably, 5 years, it is not about if my co-worker is told by the boss. If she does to have sex with him or does not go on the date, she will not get a promotion in the job. That is not the case. If that happened, she can go to human resources, the police. She can do all this.

This does mean this guy in the bar who asked for your number is harassing you. He just approached you. If you say, “No,” then that’s it. The cases that they’re trying to bring up. It doesn’t match to me with the movement. If it is labour harassment, you have places to complain about it.

If it is rape, you have places to complain about it. What are you attacking? You are attacking regular approaching of males and females. The normal approaching to me. Because, these are how humans approach one another without computer, internet, or phones.

How 500 years ago did a male state to a female? Did they send an email or in person? You are killing. This movement is killing that. That’s not healthy. We will end up like Japan. No one wants to get married. No one has any kids. The population is decreasing.

People are renting one-room apartments, living by themselves, working 12 hours, and are depressed, killing themselves. They do not live a normal life. This is not about being conservative. This is about what is the reproduction cycle or the life cycle, so we can continue. You can see a normal life in certain things.

I don’t want everybody to get married to have a ‘normal’ life. But in certain things, it is healthy. It is natural. It is why we are here. Evolution makes this romantic live for a purpose for the parents to raise the kids and for the kids to have protection and safety.

That’s the reason for romantic love. Otherwise, we will be like dogs [Laughing]. All of that. In humans, it is different. We have this romantic attachment. This romantic way of how we stay together for 10, 20, or more years. Your body makes you feel attached to the other person.

That guarantees those kids will be protected and be raised together. Of course, it is being raised with parents. Those raised with both parents are more successful. The studies show this. They do not do drugs. They do not drop out of school as much.

It is a lifestyle because evolution ‘wants that.’ Again, I am not saying everyone has to get married or have kids. What I am saying is that the approaching is natural, it is not when one part says, “No,” and the other side continues. If someone says, “I do not want to talk to you anymore,” or, “I do not have an interest in you.”

The other person has to understand this and then move on. If it is continuing the approaching, then it is two people consenting to the approaching. Then I think it is unfair for the other person to complain afterwards. Why didn’t you say something?

In most of these cases, what is interesting, after having the relationship, you just say that you didn’t consent. That is what bothers me more. How do I know if that guy wants to do things with me if he is doing everything with me? We hang out. We have sex.

3 months late, I say, “I did not consent. I was not making good decisions.” The decisions you make need to consequences. If you change your mind after, it doesn’t mean that you can ruin somebody’s life because he was thinking it was right. I think females need to think about this.

If you date with a guy, putting the female perspective forward, if this guy buys you jewelry, buy you clothes, take you to dinner at a restaurant, take you to a house, hang out with you, go out with you, what do you think, female? You would think he is in love with you and wants to be with you.

The same happens to the male side. If she accepts his presents, if she has sex with him, if she have an approach with him – meaning conversations, move forward another step, then he will think everything is good. That he has a green light to continue.

When you think you do not want anymore, you have to stop. Otherwise, it is rape. But if you continue, you are giving physical consent. I don’t want the guy saying, “Hey, can we stay together?” It is awkward. Of a guy asking, “Hey, Shirley, can I have consent to have your number or have sex with you?”

No, please, please, it is ridiculous. I understand women have been raped. But it is not because they have been asked for the phone number at the bar. If he wants to rape you, he will wait until you walk alone from the bar to the car. It is common sense.

Statistics, they don’t say the guys who ask or your number 90% want to rape you. No, it’s not the case.

Jacobsen: In conversations with women friends, has this only put tensions on relationships?

Rivera: I don’t think it is only that. I think it is a cultural thing. I think females who say these things may have interpersonal problems. What is a healthy relation? What is a good approach? They have a distortion of this because they have been loved. They have been having a healthy relation.

They could be raped in the past. Two of them I know, they have been raped when they were little. So, they do not understand what is a healthy relationship. All these approaches. They do not know what is a healthy approach. I have never been in that situation.

So, maybe, for me, it will be okay if a guy asks for my number and wants to try to date me. So, I probably what is a healthy consent, and approach, or non-approach, for a relationship. Maybe, these girls have social skill issues, or may have been abused in the past.

They may not understand what is a healthy approach or not. I think that’s the case. I see this more in the white community than the Hispanic community. In the Hispanic community, for us, it is probably normal because, I think, Latino males are more fresh. They can say things to your face.

For others, it cannot be that open. But in the culture, it is more normal. I don’t know if it is normal, if it’s good or bad, in the Hispanic community. But you just walk away, whatever. Here, you need to write on Facebook, write about it, “Oh my gosh, he told me that I am pretty. He said, ‘I am pretty.’ Oh my gosh.”

I do not want to say that they are overreacting. But I do not think it is proportional hat we doing with that thing. I do not think it is proportional or working. All of this cultural stuff. It is bad. Some people like it. Some people don’t like it. People need to understand, “I don’t like you. I don’t want to date with you.”

Please don’t go to his house. He might understand. Men cannot assume. But don’t be with him if you don’t want to be with him! I am telling you. If this guy takes me to meet his mom, if this guy takes me to dinner, if this guy buys me presents, I think everything is progressing.

I would assume it. If the next day, the male say, “Oh, Shirley. I didn’t want to fuck with you. You raped me.” I was like, “What did I do?” I would be confused. I would think everything is fine. He never said, “No.” He bought me this stuff. He invited me to places. What did I do?

It is the same for the male side.

Jacobsen: Tarana Burke lamented the characterization of #MeToo as a vindictive plot to take down powerful men. Some of her concerns are being raised in a counter-response without realizing that she raised these a while ago. Noam Chomsky, in some of his commentary, noted the pointing out of the real “social pathology” (the sexual misconduct).

At the same time, he wanted to make a distinction between allegation and demonstration. The allegation of a crime. The demonstration of a crime occurring. How do these two considerations of prominent people, considered moral people generally, play into your perspective in this ongoing and developing cultural phenomenon?

Rivera: Allegation and demonstration, I have a live video days ago about it. I did not mention allegation or demonstration. But I talked about a formal complaint. It can be a good term. Allegation, demonstration, I will talk about what we have right now.

Hopefully, I do not move out of the topic. It is not just the fact that you say something. It is good. If something happened, say something, but if you throw out everything out, you can use the right process in the right pattern. We are lucky. We have places to go to do this stuff.

It is not just a demonstration. It is difficult to demonstration these harassment situations. It is difficult to demonstrate a sexual harassment with a rape kit months later. It is how you are for real complaining. If you do an accusation, don’t give it on Facebook, a blog, go to the police, I will take into consideration those allegations.

They went to the police. She is looking for justice because she went to them. But if you are going to the public place without an alternative for investigation, and if trying to make a demonstration with opinions! You’re not doing anything. I will not believe you.

I will not take consideration of your allegation because demonstration. Where? Where are you demonstrating? And what? The police or your friends in a blog? Demonstration, you have a bunch of evidence. You have friends who make comments about it.

It is not a demonstration. It is shocking. You have to go to the right place to demonstrate with the right people with the right place to do the right investigation to see if a rape happened 10 or 5 years ago. We will have to go very deep. But I don’t think there is a demonstration with opinions because they are just opinions about an event that happened with uncertainty if people were there.

Allegation, where did you do the allegation? Where? Demonstration, who were the people demonstrating this? Is it just people make an opinion about this? You are not demonstrating anything. Allegations, again, where – in a police department or a in a blog? Demonstration, who – the police or your friends making opinions about this? Everyone then judging and making conclusions about the issue. You didn’t demonstrate anything.

Jacobsen: What about the poor processing of rape kits by the authorities, police, and so on

Rivera: I work in these areas. 75% of the population, I work with sex offenders against minors and adults. Rape kit, probably, 24 hours after the event. You can take the kit. You cannot take a shower. That is the best thing. Most victims are not able to take this in 24 hours. Most of them hide themselves, insulate themselves. I don’t know how you say this word in English.

The victim avoids people, that’s the first thing with rape. They avoid people. Nobody knows anything. It is difficult until you get a sample of a rape kit because you can prove that contact. After that, it is very difficult to prove rape. There is no evidence, except testimonies. Or probably, people who see you together with them.

If there is no rape kit, then there is no evidence. It is hard to believe. I have people who have been out of jail because the person changed their mind later. Everyone thought that he actually raped her, for 8 years. 8 years later, she decided to talk. They dropped his charges. For 8 years, people thought these he did because her testimony looked real, feels real. I share this story from days ago.

In this county, 44% of the cases, it was just false testimonies. If we put this at the big scale, what number would you have? 44% is a lot. It is a lot.

Jacobsen: Is this after or before considering under-reportage of men and under-reportage of women victims?

Rivera: Females, females.

Jacobsen: I guess, this would apply to men as well. In this sense, is this before the consideration of under-reportage? So, of those reported, the 44% number comes up.

Rivera: The reportage, it was all females.

Jacobsen: How serious is eye-witness testimony taken in the United States of America?

Rivera: Most of the testimony, pretty much all of them, are minors. It happens with parents in the house. Most of these events, the child says, “This just happened to me.” Most of the cases, honestly, they let the parents know right away. But the parents do not prevent this from happening. They bring people over.

They drink. It s a party. Then this stuff happens. It is weird. But most of these cases for adults, they were dating. It is a pattern. It is the same characteristics when they happen. For minors, it happens in the house, always alcohol is involved. When it is adults, usually, they are dating or are going to hang out.

Jacobsen: It is alcohol or an intimate partner, or both.

Rivera: Never a stranger in most of the cases that I’ve seen.

Jacobsen: Again, to repeat, this is based on professional work experience for you. You work in correctional facilities with sex offenders.

Rivera: Yes.

Jacobsen: Many people don’t want that job.

Rivera: [Laughing] yes. It is what it is.

Jacobsen: It’s true.

Rivera: That’s I tell you. It is never strangers. It never people who are strangers to you. It is always people you know and who you bring to your house. I want evidence because I can ruin someone’s life with words.

Jacobsen: What are the best forms of evidence in these extreme forms of sexual violence allegations?

Rivera: Right away, get a rape kit, don’t shower, you have more than 24 hours if you do not shower.

Jacobsen: Why is it 24 hours?

Rivera: Because of the fluids. The fluids from the person who raped you from his body. All of that. It is better to check in before 24 hours. After 24 hours, or if you shower, it is going to be gone. If you scratch the person, the touch will stay there. Of course, we can find saliva in the genitalia if he forced oral sex on you.

There are plenty of ways that you can prove that.

Jacobsen: Are there any weaknesses in the forms of rape kits that we have now? Is there only one type? Or are there different types? Is there more than one form of rape kit or only one generic form?

Rivera: Usually, when they do penetration or sodomy, there is a separate way of judging them. Then when they ask for oral sex from the young, it is, usually, a stepfather or people who you bring over to the house. People have to be careful who they bring over to their house. Sometimes, get too drunk and go to sleep with strangers in the house, you give your kids to the predators. You are doing it.

You are responsible. Or it is the stepdad. People have to avoid this. They are sick. They do not understand. They do not understand a healthy relationship. That’s how they understand things. They think this is normal. They will do it. We have to prevent it. We have to put them on that situation. Because there is no way to stop that.

I have a friend telling me in Puerto Rico that they do not do the rape kits. We have them in the United States. Most of the hospital emergency rooms have the rape kits. If you get raped or are forced to do sexual contact, you can go to the emergency room. Most of the hospital have a rape kit. I do not know how it is in Canada.

Jacobsen: The processing time is 24 hours for a rape kit.

Rivera: It can be longer, just don’t shower.

Jacobsen: There is no issue to do with the processing time of them in certain areas of the country, maybe, being lackadaisical in terms of the processing time for them or the backlogging of them.

Rivera: Like the time?

Jacobsen: Let’s say a hypothetical case of a police department being overdrawn in terms of their internal resources, so they deal with other cases. The rape kit cases get delayed.

Rivera: You can go straight o the emergency room. Even if you do not want to make an accusation, you can go there. If a minor, they will call the police. If an adult, then you can go to the emergency room and have the rape kit done. It is optional to do the complaint to the police.If it is a minor, then the police can do the complaint directly because the child can be raped by their own parents. But the rape kits, you can go straight. I say that.

If somebody rapes you, go straight to the emergency room, you do not have to go to the police. Make them get the rape kit for you, talk to somebody there, get your testimony from someone, they can be a testifier for you. Doctors have to testify when they get a patient like that. But if you go to the police, you will lose hours there.

Your evidence will be lost there. It is better to conserve the evidence and go to the hospital.

Jacobsen: Of all of the sides in the public conversation being talked about by lay people without necessary experience in law and law enforcement, in legal contexts, in experience, in knowing someone who has gone through that experience, and so on, what is one nuance that you just never see talked about in the public?

Rivera: Wow – something I never see talked about in public. When we are talking about rape things, I wish people being raped by people who are in the house. The offenders are in the house. The majority of the rape cases, the offender lives in the house. They are there with the child. Nobody will talk about it.

If you have your uncle, your stepfather, with the kids, those can be a predator. The problem is that people leave and the kids are there. Nobody says, “If you leave the stepfather or the uncle with the kids, they can be the predator.” They leave for work. No one can say anything while out at work. The kids say nothing because they are scared.

We need to talk more about what happens in the houses.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Shirley.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Interview with Richard Bob Dalida – Chairman, PATAS

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2019/12/26

Richard Bob Dalida is the Chairman of PATAS. He tells a common story of the social and familial linked issues in rejection of the supernatural beliefs of the community. Here we talk about his life, work, and views.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What was early life like for you, e.g., geography, culture, language, religion or lack thereof, education, and family structure and dynamics? 

Richard Bob Dalida: I grew up in Mandaluyong, Philippines. Just like Manila, it is a city. I love Philosophy a lot. I grew up in a library of Don Bosco Technical College. My favourite authors were Jacques Derrida, Anne Rice, Edgar Allan Poe, and many more when I was a kid. I grew up in witness of buildings, skyscrapers, bridges, pollution, noise, stress, and a lot more of the city life.

Middle-class family, also, I studied in an all-boys exclusive school. When I grew older, I became a lover of brewed black coffee. That rich great blend and aroma that stimulates me deep down my spine. A taste that would touch the soul of my body, awakening from a great slumber. I grew up with both my parents as a devout Roman Catholic.

It was never easy for me to express my feelings when I was a kid; that I, being an atheist since my younger years, will be beaten into tiny little pieces once revealed, maybe or so? So, I started confessing that I am an atheist when I became older, when I was around 16 years old. First to my sister, then my little brother, then my mom, and then my dad.

At first, all of them were in contest of what I am, they were pretty shocked. I explained how Science and all other dynamics of academe fall-short and irreconcilable with Religion; I’ve discussed fallacies, logic, and reason. Sometimes, when my dad’s not busy, it would take a whole day of argument with him with regards to my atheism.

That is why no-one can beat me on debates, up until now. I have practiced theological debate with my dad since I was 16 years old. I am already 37 now. My dad tried his best to convince me about the Bible and stuff. At first, I trembled of fear, not because of threat, but on how I started thinking that I might have hurt his feelings.

My dad is the best dad in the whole world. I don’t want to hurt him. He is my best friend. I love my dad very much, and so as my whole family. I got afraid that they will get hurt. But well, I did; I did hurt them. And so one day, when I was going home from work, I started telling my parents that I am no longer an atheist.

I even joined Christian churches to show them. One after another. I joined the Lutherans, the Armenians, and the Calvinists. It took me so many years to study those in which I learned a lot about the Bible, History, Theology, and Philosophy even more. But it is too unbearable up until – and finally! – I have moved out of my parents’ house, to live on my own.

From then on, I felt free to express myself in public knowing that the Philippines is a very conservative and devout theistic country. I felt proud. I found friends. I found love. I found a new family. I found my home. But as I was so busy growing up, I forgot that my parents are growing old. I want to be honest with you, I was never free. I got enslaved by my own feelings, of too much of missing my parents, been away from them for quite a long time. 

I still do visit them from time to time, call them up when I am not busy; however, I find that TIME as too short now. So whenever I visit them, I deliver the message that I was never an atheist, for I worship them as my one and only God and Goddess. I love my mom and my dad so much. I think I did not answer your question properly, and please forgive me for that. 

Jacobsen: What levels of formal education have been part of life for you? How have you informally self- educated? 

Dalida: I took-up a Bachelor of Science in nursing; however, I did not practice it. Rather, I became a certified ITIL Practitioner and a Certified Service Desk Analyst, working at a Data Centre as a supervisor of their client support organization. 

Jacobsen: What is the context of atheism and agnosticism in the Philippines? 

Dalida: I cannot speak for the whole Philippines. But based on PATAS Constitution, we understand and acknowledges the same etymology and epistemology of atheism and agnosticism, pragmatically based on Western Philosophy. 

Jacobsen: As the CFO of PATAS, what are the tasks and responsibilities that come with the position? 

Dalida: As the new Chairman, I called for a General Assembly last 2 weeks ago to change the structure of the group. I have reconstructed it to make a better productivity and align the group with our mission and vision. Before, the hierarchy of officers are as follows: President – Vice President – CFO – Secretary – Board of Trustees. 

But now, I reconstructed it to a new structure which is as follows: 

Reporting to me will be the following directors: 

1) Executive Director – CEO; the role of the executive director is to design, develop and implement strategic plans for the organization in a manner that is both cost and time-efficient. The executive director is also responsible for the day-to-day operation of the organization, which includes managing committees and staff as well as developing business plans in collaboration with the board. In essence, the board grants the executive director the authority to run the organization. 

2) Legislative Director – Lead Comrade; responsible for any Change Management requests such as the constitution amendment. This includes but not limited to Regional Affairs, Sectors, and Affiliates of organization. The Lead Comrade is involved and responsible for a Regional legislation and all others General Assembly, convention, and interviews. 

3) Project Director – Research and mobilization initiators. Responsible for project management role in which an individual strategically oversees, find, monitors, and manages NGO projects from an executive level. As the most responsible authority over a project, this individual is charged with managing team members and allocated resources. Sales team should work hand in hand with the Project Director for proper transition and project endorsements. 

4) Financial Director – Oversees the finance health and responsible for removing any profit from the revenues. Responsible in combining operational and strategic roles, manage accounting and financial control functions, and establish a financial strategy for the revenues long-term growth of PATAS Inc. 

5) Membership Director – Membership directors are responsible acquiring and maintaining membership for main chapter and regional chapters of the organization. Among their most important responsibilities are maintaining membership levels by outreach to potential members through marketing techniques, the commission of advertisements, and using the Internet and social media. Additionally, the membership director is tasked with keeping records of existing members, collecting payment of membership dues, and addressing the concerns of members to facilitate solutions and their continued association with the organization. Membership directors are also often in charge of budget monitoring and maintenance. The membership director is often one of the first people with whom prospective members come into contact, so it is vital that the director is outgoing and personable, able to answer questions, and able to explain the benefits of membership. The membership director must also possess the skills necessary to create and execute effective marketing and recruitment strategies. Problem- solving skills are tested when members come to the director with concerns, and aptitude with mathematics helps directors maintain a budget. 

6) Social Media / Helpdesk Director – A director should handle the moderators and admins of the page and public groups. Also called the Marketing Director; market and sells the entire organization, responsible for strategic marketing analysis and revenue market stability including website implementation, issue mitigation, and data gathering. 

Jacobsen: What are the important developments in 2019/2020 for PATAS? 

Dalida: A lot. This is a complete paradigm shift. We have multiple projects including The Project Logos – 8 supplemental courses will be given to the general and young key population of Marikina City

Free Courses offered are as follows: 

Session 1: September 21, 2019 – Hygiene/HIV Awareness (Sex Education) & Well-Being (Anti-bullying) 

Session 2: September 28, 2019 – Microbiology, Chemistry, & Recycling Workshop 

Session 3: November 30, 2019 CARE & Mental Health (Depression) & Reproductive Health 

TBA: 

Session 4: The Science of Evolution Session 5: Financial Literacy Session 6: Basic Baybayin Session 7: Basic Pastel Drawing Session 8: Music 

PATAS continues its community projects as we show the world that we can be good even as atheists or agnostics. As secular and evolutionary humanists, we stress the potential value and goodness of human beings, emphasize common human needs, and seek solely rational ways of solving human problems. 

Big thanks to LGBTBUS, Better Philippines, and EHBB-GBS and to all our sponsors for having these projects and may we continue to have these activities for the betterment of humanity in our society. 

We look forward to more volunteers to join us in continuing our advocacy. See you on our upcoming projects! 

Jacobsen: Who are important authors and speakers in the Philippines on atheism and agnosticism? What other organizations do important work for the secular and free thought communities in the Philippines? 

Dalida: There is a lot. If I mention one name then one of my other friend may become jealous! So I have to be very-very picky! Hahahaha. Just kidding. 

I am more into an artist who can express themselves freely and leave you on the state of aporia. 

1) Carlos Celdran: 

Let me start with the late Carlos Celdran who just passed away last October 8, 2019. His legacy will never be lost, Celdran had lived in Madrid since late January 2019, and 5 months after the Supreme 

Court (SC) upheld the decision of the Court of Appeals that found him guilty of “offending religious feelings.” Celdran faced a minimum prison time of 2 months and 21 days, and maximum of 1 year, 1 month, and 11 days. The decision was on appeal when he left for Madrid. 

Lay Catholics had filed a blasphemy case against Celdran after he disrupted a service at the Manila Cathedral on September 30, 2010. Clad as the Filipino national hero Jose Rizal, the outspoken reproductive health advocate held up a sign with the words “Damaso,” in reference to the villainous priest in Rizal’s famous novel Noli Me Tangere. He did this to protest against the Catholic Church who opposes the Reproductive Health bill, with statements from both pro and anti-camps making headlines nearly every day, and the Church playing a vital role in its determent. Statistics put 8 in 10 Filipinos to be Catholic, which leaves them highly likely to listen to the Church’s opinion. 

2) Mideo Cruz: This man needs no introduction. You can just Google his name and you will find a lot of articles about his works. Here are some examples and let it speak for itself. I don’t want to spoil it for you. 

3) Sunny Garcia: One of my favourite atheist artist in the Philippines. All of his artworks are amazing. Indescribable. You can find some of his old works on this site: https://www.flickr.com/photos/sunny_garcia_artist/. Also, you can find him every Sunday selling his artworks in The Legazpi Sunday Market. Located at the corner of Legaspi and Rufino Streets, Legazpi Village, Makati City. It’s near Union Church of Manila. The market is open every Sunday from 8 AM to 2 PM. 

Jacobsen: What are some fun and interesting community and social activities of PATAS for its membership? 

Dalida: A lot to mention. For students, we can even help you with your college thesis. 

Membership includes IDs, Shirts, Pens, and many more. 

Meet-ups and conventions are free. 

Once part of our organization, members can volunteer to some of our social outreach projects such as: 

• Tree Planting 

• LGBTQ+ A (Ally) Convention 

• LGBTQ+ Metro Manila Pride March 

• Project Logos Season 1 – 4 

• Rural Aid 

• Calamity Response Team 

• Donate a blood 

• HIV AIDS Programs 

Jacobsen: If you could pass one important lesson onto upcoming generations who are active and involved in civil society fighting for secularism, especially under Duterte, what would that message be for them? 

Dalida: You are not alone. Do not be afraid. PATAS will help you. Think without fear, live without delusions. 

Jacobsen: How can people become involved through the donation of time, the addition of membership, links to professional and personal networks, giving monetarily, exposure in interviews or writing articles, and so on? 

Dalida: Through Legislation drive. For now, my goal is to be an international organization. Which is only possible through international partnership. Speaking of which, I am formally appealing for a partnership with your group: The Canadian Atheist Group. We would like our works to be shared in your group as well as your works be shared in our group ☺ this is so exciting! 

Jacobsen: Any final feelings or thoughts based on the conversation today? 

Dalida: I am very, very thankful once again to your group for giving us the opportunity to speak out. 

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Richard. 

Dalida: Thank you as well! Hope to hear from you soon!

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 3 – November-December: Deportation from Tel Aviv, Israel for Human Rights Watch Israel and Palestine Director

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2019/12/25

Omar Shakir, J.D. works as the Israel and Palestine Director for Human Rights Watch. He investigates a variety of human rights abuses within Occupied Palestinian Territory (Gaza and the West Bank) and Israel. He earned a B.A. in International Relations from Stanford University, an M.A. in Arab Studies from Georgetown University’s School of Foreign Affairs, and a J.D. from Stanford Law school. He is bilingual in Arabic and English. Previously, he was a Bertha Fellow at the Center for Constitutional Rights with a focus on U.S. counterterrorism policies, which included legal representation of Guantanamo detainees. He was the Arthur R. and Barbara D. Finberg Fellow (2013-2014) for Human Rights Watch with investigations, during this time, into the human rights violations in Egypt, e.g., the Rab’a massacre, which is one of the largest killings of protestors in a single day ever. Also, he was a Fulbright Scholar in Syria.

Duly note, the Question of Palestine continues since April of 1947. On November 22 of 1974, in resolution 3236 (XXIX) of the United Nations General Assembly, the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people were “reaffirmed” with specifications on the “right to self-determination without external interference; the right to national independence and sovereignty; and the right of Palestinians to return to their homes and property, from which they had been displaced and uprooted” (United Nations, 2019; United Nations General Assembly, 1974). With November 10 of 1975 resolution 3376 (XXX), in the United Nations General Assembly, there was the establishment of the Committee on the Exercise of the Inalienable Rights of the Palestinian people with a request for a systematic set of recommendations on the implementation of the enabling of the rights of the Palestinian people (United Nations General Assembly, 1975).

Here we continue with the third part in our series of conversations with updates on November and December of 2019 between Israel and Palestine, and the recent decision of the Israeli Supreme Court to deport Shakir, which resulted in having to work, eventually, in Amman, Jordan at the time of the third session.

*Interview conducted on December 15, 2019.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: We have been doing, more or less, something like an intermittent educational series with updates on some of the activities of the Israel-Palestine issue.

How have things been characterized in November-December so far? It is midway through December on the 15th.

Omar Shakir: The most significant human rights event of November-December would have to be the escalation between Palestinian armed groups in Gaza and the Israeli army in mid-November of 2019, which involved both Israeli airstrikes that killed more than two dozen Palestinians in Gaza, including a number of members of armed Palestinian groups, but also a number of civilians.

Armed Palestinian groups also fired hundreds of rockets towards Israeli population centres that injured more than 75 Israelis. These are indiscriminate attacks that are war crimes. Those hostilities, of course, raised a number of other human rights issues.

Of course, elsewhere, we have continued to see home demolitions take place, the number of which has risen in 2019 (See: Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 2 – Demolitions). So, those have been among the many human rights issues that we have continued to see take place in Israel and Palestine over the last six weeks.

Jacobsen: As a result of some of the reportage through Human Rights Watch, you have been critiqued lightly in some ways and heavily in others (Al-Jazeera, 2019; Kuttab, 2019; Safi, 2019). This can come with state-based consequences when you were living in Jerusalem. What happened there?

Shakir: The Israeli government for more than two and a half years now has sought to restrict Human Rights Watch’s access to Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territory. Of course, for more than a decade, it effectively blocked our access into Gaza, except for allowing us to enter on an exceptional basis in 2016.

However, in February 2017, the Israeli government denied Human Rights Watch a permit to hire a foreign employee to work from Israel and the occupied West Bank. Amid public pressure, they eventually reversed the decision and gave the organization a work permit.

I received a work visa under that. But in May of 2018, Israel revoked my work visa. We challenged that decision in court. In early November of this year, the Israeli Supreme Court upheld the government’s deportation order.

I was deported on November 25th, 2019 as a result of my human rights advocacy. This event comes amid many other efforts, systematic efforts, to muzzle human rights defenders. They come at a time in which many other international rights advocates have been denied entry.

A time in which Israeli and Palestinian human rights defenders are maligned, face restrictions on their ability to receive funding, and have faced arrest, or received travel bans, amid many other punitive measures.

But the case also marked a dangerous escalation– because not only did the Supreme Court put its stamp on the government’s effort to clamp down on human rights advocacy, but the Israeli government went further in using allegations in support of boycotts to effectively say that mainstream human rights advocacy – in our case, calling on businesses to refrain from contributing to rights abuse, which is the kind of work that we do in 100 countries around the world – is grounds for denying entry to and deporting a representative of one of the largest human rights organizations. This sort of action could not only precipitate further denials of entry and deportations, but could be used to also restrict or close Israel’s doors to other critics and to further restrict Israeli and Palestinian human rights defenders who, themselves, engage in very similar work.

Jacobsen: What other types of states are known for this kind of activity?

Shakir: Human Rights Watch works in over 100 countries across the world. This is the first time a country that calls itself a democracy has deported or blocked access to one of our staff members.

In so doing, Israel joins a club of countries like Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea, Egypt, and others, who have blocked access to Human Rights Watch staff. Israel can aspire to join countries like Uzbekistan, the DRC, and Ethiopia who expelled our researcher and, eventually, allowed us back into the country.

Israel claims to be the region’s only democracy, but, at the same time that I have been expelled from Israel, we have offices in Jordan, Lebanon, Tunisia where foreign colleagues work from. I am speaking to you, now, from Amman. I am continuing to cover Israel and Palestine alongside my team on the ground.

I think this highlights not only the government’s attack on human rights advocacy, but also its larger disdain for basic international norms.

Jacobsen: Whether you are allowed back into the country to continue your human rights work through Human Rights Watch (Human Rights Watch, 2019a; Human Rights Watch, 2019b), or not, what does this do in terms of the image of Israel as a state over the long haul?

Shakir: The world saw through the Israeli government’s explanations here. The world saw this as an attack on the human rights movement. The reality is that the Israeli Foreign Ministry long opposed my deportation, because it knew that it would hurt Israel’s image.

But Israel’s image is primarily hurt by the fact that it continues to systematically abuse the rights of Palestinians. The best answer to that is to stop abusing the human rights of Palestinians. The attacks on human rights defenders must be seen in the larger context of a more than half a century occupation [Ed. 52 years now] that is defined by institutional discrimination and systematic abuses of the rights of Palestinians.

Jacobsen: Have other researchers or human rights defenders been deported from Israel (rather than an organizational representative)?

Shakir: This is the first time that the Israeli government used a 2017 amendment to the law of entry [Ed. Amendment No. 28 to the Entry Into Israel Law from March 6 of 2017] that permits it to deny entry to people that they allege support the Boycott, Divestment and Sanction movement (UNODC, 2017).

We will continue to do in Israel and Palestine the same work that we have done with our team of local researchers on the ground in close coordination with our Israeli and Palestinian partners.

Of course, the larger impact of this decision is that this limits our ability to engage authorities – Israeli and Palestinian, which is much more easily done face-to-face on the ground.

We will continue to engage them by phone, but that certainly makes things more complicated. Also, it limits the access of  Israeli and Palestinian rights groups and human rights victims themselves to Human Rights Watch.

But we are determined to compensate for that in different ways. We also have a team of researchers without portfolio, which can be deployed under my supervision when needed to supplement our documentation on the ground.

So, the work won’t stop; the advocacy won’t stop. We will be as committed as always to human rights in Israel and Palestine, as we are around the world.

Jacobsen: Thank you very much for the opportunity and your time, Omar.

Shakir: Thanks so much, take care.

References

Al-Jazeera. (2019, November 25). HRW’s Omar Shakir pledges to continue work after Israel expulsion. Retrieved from https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/11/hrw-omar-shakir-pledges-continue-work-israel-expulsion-191125093439511.html.

Human Rights Watch. (2019a, November 5). Israel: Supreme Court Greenlights Deporting Human Rights Watch Official. Retrieved from https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/11/05/israel-supreme-court-greenlights-deporting-human-rights-watch-official.

Human Rights Watch. (2019b, November 5). Israel Expels Human Rights Watch Director Today. Retrieved from https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/11/25/israel-expels-human-rights-watch-director-today.

Kuttab, D. (2019, December 18). HRW calls for equal Palestinian rights. Retrieved from https://www.arabnews.com/node/1600596/middle-east.

Safi, M. (2019, December 17). Israeli military law stifles Palestinian rights, watchdog says. Retrieved from https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/dec/17/israeli-military-law-stifles-palestinian-rights-watchdog-says.

United Nations. (2019). The Question of Palestine: Mandate and Objectives. Retrieved from https://www.un.org/unispal/committee/mandate-and-objectives/.

United Nations General Assembly. (1974, November 22). 3236 9XXIX). Question of Palestine. Retrieved from https://www.un.org/unispal/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/ARES3236XXIX.pdf.

United Nations General Assembly. (1975, November 10). 3376 (XXX). Question of Palestine. Retrieved from https://www.un.org/unispal/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/RES3376.pdf.

UNODC. (2017,March 6). Amendment No. 28 to the Entry Into Israel Law. Retrieved from https://www.unodc.org/res/cld/document/law-no–5712-1952–entry-into-israel-law_html/Entry_Into_Israel_1952.pdf.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask SASS 10 – Capacity Building: To Boogy and Build or Not to Boogy and Build

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2019/12/24

This is an ongoing and new series devoted to the South African Secular Society (SASS) and South African secularism. The Past President, Jani Schoeman, and the Current President, Rick Raubenheimer, and the current Vice-President, Wynand Meijer, will be taking part in this series to illuminate these facets of South Africa culture to us. Rick and Wynand join us.

Here we talk about capacity building.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: We’re going to be dealing with capacity building in terms of people and institutions. What are the ways in which, without necessarily focusing on partnerships, SASS has been able to capacity build and institution building? 

There is a low staff number across many secular organizations. This is particularly true in the African region. How is this a problem for SASS? What have been some discussion points in terms of dealing with it?

Rick Raubenheimer: We have an Executive Committee of 4 people. None of us is paid. Two people on the Ex. Co. changed in March when we changed the committee. 

Where I think we are building capacity is in the marriage offices and the aspirant marriage offices because we’re making part of their conditions of becoming marriage officers, firstly, paying membership fees and, secondly, taking part in the general meetings that we have once per month, preferably, they would take part in the meetings or meetups in their particular area.

That’s given us a larger pool of activists. Although, they are not particularly active. Wynand?

Wynand Meijer: Yes, I would agree with the points that Rick has highlighted. We strive to build a community as such. We try to engage the community by online activity, whether Facebook interactions and things that we post on our social media but also in our Telegram group.

People can chat interactively with each other. It has grown quite nicely. I think we are in excess of 96 people in there. That is national. When possible, we, also, try to have the people meet in person – get away from the keyboard, from your little safe space, and get out and meet people.

It is part of having an online and in-person presence for them to see other people in the group in person. 

Jacobsen: What about institution building, basically the infrastructure? How do they build that up not necessarily online? 

Wynand: I think there is a need for finance. Having financial resources to our availability, as Rick did mention, it is having marriage officiants as paid members to help with cash flow. However, I do not see that we can start a brick-and-mortar building within 2 months’ time from now.

It is a very gradual process. People are also not very engaging if we have volunteers come with us. If there is no money involved in it, then people think, “Why should I use my money to go there?” Rick?

Raubenheimer: Yes, we do have a bit of trouble involving events. The meetings are fairly well attended. The ones at my place, in Johannesburg, tend to be falling off in numbers. Wynand’s place is growing more and being better attended. 

Yes, I think that is partly because, in his area, people tend to be more religious. When they are atheists there and find an atheist group, they tend to give it more value. Whereas Joburg is more liberal less religious.

So, perhaps, people feel less need to create a community or find one. It is perverse really [Laughing].

Meijer: Looking at establishing a stronger footprint, it is one reason why we have looked into engaging other groups who have a similar, secular outlook as well. In trying to tap into that and create more awareness, it is just another way that we are trying to gain more influence, so that we can further the cause.

So, we can get to the point of being a household name in a few years’ time. However, it is slow and steady as a process.

Jacobsen: If you look at Humanists International, they have affiliates. If you look at the Secular Student Alliance, they have student groups on campuses. Of course, those are varying kinds of focus for the SSA. 

There are a bunch of groups like that at the small level and some at the medium level. They have proxies place all over their various locales. Could something like this be something for SASS – finding people who are good in SA in getting things done and hosting the community, and then becoming groups in those areas?

Wynand: Again, I feel the resources, the human resources, is limited. We are a small group doing small things. It is not a lot of room for delegating. A lot of the time we have to spread ourselves thin to reach all of the other areas. 

Raubenheimer: Yes, we, as far as we can, are doing what you have outlined in terms of the marriage officers forming the core of the groups in the various areas. For example, I am thinking of Gail in Makhanda.

Our most recently qualified marriage officer is in the Western Cape. We don’t have anybody in KwaZulu Natal yet. That’s the more easterly coastal province. We don’t have anybody qualified in Gauteng either.

Although, we had a bit of setback in the last two weeks when I found out that all of the marriage officers, which was 3 of them, who had written exams that were being marked had failed. The good news is that they can re-write as long as we re-apply for them.

Then they can keep writing until they pass. However, we had hoped to have more qualified by this time.

Wynand: I think another thing that makes this more difficult for marriage officers is that it takes a long time to get certified. You set a date, take an exam, get feedback about rewriting or not. It can take 3 months or more, easily.

It is not a quick turnaround time either.

Raubenheimer: Currently, it is worse because the person who deals with this at the Department of Home Affairs has been going on seminars associated with them amalgamating the three or four different marriage acts that we have in SA into one.

It means that she has been spending time out of the office and not getting around to her regular work. Which means, the things like getting the letter for the exam from them has stretched from an intended 6 weeks into an unintended 8 weeks. 

Jacobsen: What are some positive trends?

Raubenheimer: Atheism is definitely on the rise. Our marriage officer web page appears to be wonderfully popular. Unfortunately, it happens to be among theists. Wynand added a feature that people have to rate themselves on the Dawkins scale.

We would not accept anyone more theistic than an agnostic. He turned off the feature that blocked them. I have turned down about 7 theists in the last 2 or 3 weeks.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Raubenheimer: He has now reinstated, thank goodness. Thank, Wynand. So, we got a decent one today, which I still have to reply to.

Wynand: Another positive is the Telegram group, our chit-chat group. If you just leave it, and don’t look at your messages, you can get 100 or 200 messages by the next day of people engaged in conversation.

It is definitely a positive. When you look at people engaging in the conversation, it is different people in the conversation who are active. It is busy as well. I would see this as a positive of that activity as well.

Raubenheimer: Of the 96 members, I just saw somebody signing on now. There are about a dozen contributing on a regular basis. Then there are others without work or lives who contribute frequently. 

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Rick and Wynand.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Interview with Daniel Mallett – Secretary, Kelowna Atheists, Skeptics and Humanists Association (KASHA)

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2019/12/24

Daniel Mallett is the Secretary for the Kelowna Atheists, Skeptics and Humanists Association (KASHA) located in British Columbia.

Here we talk about his background, work, and views.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: How did you get a start in Edmonton? How did you transition into a more secular outlook over time?

Daniel Mallett: Yes, my family of origin is deeply Catholic and extremely devout in their Catholicism. I was raised as a creedal Catholic. My family of origin was very “true Catholic,” wouldn’t use birth control, would go every week to Mass if not every day, would attend all holy days of obligation, would pray the rosary every day – very, very devout.

Also, I believed in this traditional Catholic value, where, at least, one child should join the clergy as a priest or a nun. I was the designated one from my family [Laughing] to follow that “priest or nun” path.

Jacobsen: Why?

Mallett: Maybe, because I took to it more seriously, I was naturally interested in religion and was a fervent believer. For whatever reason, I took to it [Laughing].

So, I had gone, as a teenager, to the Discernment Camps. Where you would go and discern a vocation as to whether or not you should become a priest, you sit and wait for the spirit to move you.

To be fair, they were not overly pushy to make someone become clergy, but they were happy if you were so inclined. I was steeped in religion. I very much believed in Catholicism.

Also, at the same time, I had my doubts and a lot of questions from a young age. I noticed the hypocrisy of the Catholic eligion. You would sit down and be reading in church about selling everything that you have, while people drove home in Cadillacs.

It was the hypocrisy of going to church. They would tell you how Jesus would want you to live life. The idea: if you really believe this stuff, it should be the most important thing in your life.

The ideas of God, religion, and belief in the supernatural realm, it was incredibly important. For the majority of people around me, church was something that they did once per week.

Essentially, they lived secular lives, except for the one hour of church per week. That always really bothered me. I always thought, “If I would become a believer, and really believed this, I would take this 100%.”

It was all or nothing. 16, 17, and 18 were when they went really heavy into it. The Eucharistic Adoration, the trying to go to church as much as possible. It was hard to do. It is part of such an untenable world.

If there was one thing that, eventually, led me out, it was a love of science. It is funny. My mom, who was probably the most deeply religious person known to me, who encouraged me to be religious, always taught me the value of science.

It is interesting. When I went to university, I went to the University of Alberta. To this day, they are still strange. You can take Catholic theology courses for university credit.

Jacobsen: Why is this the case? How is this weird?

Mallett: These are university courses indoctrinating you into the beliefs of one particular religion, using public tax dollars to do it, and being given privileged status on the campus by having their own facilities, buildings, funding, being put right in the curriculum.

So, besides my science courses and computer science courses, I have courses in Jesus and the Bible, the New Testament and the Old Testament, and the Catholic Catechism.

They are courses not based on any sort of rigorous academic worldviews or content. As far as I can tell, they are based on one sectarian religious worldview. If you want to take that stuff on your own dime, that’s fine.

But I don’t think this should be happening at a, supposedly, secular public university. It is weird how I took those credits for graduation with a bachelor’s degree in science [Laughing], but I did.

One of the interesting courses there was this religion and science course by Dennis Lamoureux. He is quite a character. He is a Catholic who supposedly became an atheist and came back to Catholic while going to church more as a Baptist.

He would teach this course on, basically, the classic evolution versus creation debate. ‘Are they in conflict?’ He would broaden the categories. I think he was trying to deal with the fact that so many college-age students lose their faith.

I think that is part of what this religious course was about there. To your question as to the transition from Catholicism to a secular worldview, it was the course including Richard Dawkins and atheism. My world was so sheltered at that time.

I couldn’t believe, at the time, that there was somebody who would be a Richard Dawkins who would openly and blatantly deny God. I thought, “Man, this guy must be insanely evil.”

Jacobsen: What was the feeling there?

Mallett: The feeling of hearing about him was a shock. It was hard to even fathom. Maybe, I had the notion that, “Sure, there would be people out there who are atheists.”

But the fact that people could be out there openly and blatantly writing and speaking about this in a public forum. It was shocking and even depressing a bit.

I thought, “I can’t believe there could be such evil in the world with people who would so openly deny the existence of God.”

Jacobsen: What was the conversation with people around you – of people of like mind in community?

Mallett: All over the map. I was very deeply a part of the Catholic community at the University of Alberta. There would be some people who took the religion as seriously as I did or even more so, to become a priest or a nun.

They didn’t seem to be having the same questions or the same sorts of concerns. There were other people that seemed to be able to balance their science and religious beliefs, to put them in separate spheres of influence and happily go forward believing in them to this day.

I still have friends from those days who I am still in touch with, such as Peter here. The guy who I did the YouTube videos with. I saw many rationalizations given a modern worldview.

I was interacting with a lot of Protestants at the time. She hung out with a lot of Protestant folks. I had a lot of interesting conversations with them.

Jacobsen: When you joined the Kelowna community, KASHA, those involved in formal communities of secularism, humanism, atheism, and so on.

What was the feeling of finding the community? What was the reason for entering into a semi-leadership role as the Secretary?

Mallett: When I found the community, it was at the Imagine No Religion conference. A lot of us from Edmonton went to Kamloops to go to the conference.

I don’t know if we already planned to go to the Okanagan or not. It was heartwarming to meet people of similar minds and similar worldviews in the place that I was moving to.

I think part of the biggest reason that I wanted to be in the Board and a leadership role of the organization is having the organization continue to exist and be a place for those struggling to leave religion.

I know, for myself, leaving religion was very isolating. Being so steeped in a community and having that community, in many ways, turn their back on me…

Jacobsen: …in that pain, how did they start to turn their back on you? Ultimately, how did they turn their back on you?

Mallett: Mostly, they do not want to engage in the topics that you’re interested in. I would talk to people about my concerns, my questions, my doubts.

Sometimes, it would be downright hostile, as in “you’re being lead astray for believing those things. You shouldn’t believe those things.” Some people, very friendly, would say, “I don’t want to talk about that.”

They wouldn’t be hostile about it. They just weren’t interested in a relationship with you anymore. They made it quite clear. Obviously, you don’t feel welcome.

It is hard to be there. You do not want to be in a community, at least, on the surface about shared beliefs. When you do not believe those things any longer, you start to realize that the glue is shared beliefs.

It seems weird that humans need that glue for the community in shared beliefs. Somehow, it seems to work that way. So, if you do not share the beliefs, they were not interested in what I had to say.

People would become hostile or simply not want to talk about “these topics.” So, you get the impression these are people who you are not [Laughing] going to spend time with anymore, nor do you want to at some point.

If people who do not want to speak to you, say that, then they turn their backs on you. I feel that I did not do that to them. I do have friends from that time who I do appreciate from that time.

But you have to respect people’s choices at some point.

Jacobsen: Do you notice this glue in the freethought community too? A shared set of beliefs as a glue for them.

Mallett: Not as much, I wonder if this is part of the reason why the community struggles to feel as much as a community, and to be as bonded, close, and supportive as people like.

Because for a lot of nonbelievers, atheists, or skeptics, “Why would I need to get around and sit with people who shared beliefs?” We don’t need to get together and say that we believe in God.

I do believe that there is more glue for people who have left religious beliefs and left deeply religious families because there is so much struggle, pain, and continued problems that that encounters. There is a shared experience.

Jacobsen: Does this sound like shared trauma?

Mallett: Yes, I think so. It is shared trauma. But it is almost like strategy planning sessions. How do we deal with the situations that we are in, especially when it comes to family – grandparents or parents?

People who you are close to, but still want to be in relationship with. Those who are shunning you because you no longer share their beliefs. It is a hard thing to deal with.

Talking to other people, getting ideas, getting perspective on it, it is very helpful. As I said, it is a large reason why I like to support this group. There can be such a large void when people are left alone, by their own decision or by shunning of their former communities – as part of their religion.

Jacobsen: What topics do you see needing more broaching in religious communities and secular communities in Canada?

Mallett: That’s a good question. In a naïve idealistic world, I would love for the religious communities to focus more on freethinking and skepticism, and what constitutes valid evidence.

I do not think that’s going to happen [Laughing]. Maybe, a more realistic one would be understanding and supporting the separation of religion and government, and respecting everyone’s rights to believe or not believe.

In that, the government should treat us independently of our belief or lack of belief in any deities or religions. That would be one that I would love to see more and more religious people tackle. Some people do that.

Communities where women and minorities are persecuted by government. Whereas, the ones that have been in power, like the Catholics, tend to look at it that way.

In terms of the secular world, I think the same thing. It is always important to be reminded about what constitutes good evidence, about how to continue to be skeptical how to continue to analyze claims, and evaluate claims, reason decisions, and make even tentative decisions.

So, that epistemology. One of the favourite things that we do in the Kelowna group is trivia nights. We try to do Spot the B.S. nights.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Mallett: [Laughing] who can make up the craziest stories and things? It is exercising the skeptical muscles. I think it is always valuable and something worth continuing. I know that I have to always work on it.

I think where I see the secular world lacking. My religious buddies always poke me on it. The seeming lack of community and support of charitable organizations among secular groups.

Whether that is entirely true or not, I don’t know. I will have some secular friends as part of a fundraiser to support some homeless group or somebody who has lost a home, or somebody who has gone through some great period of suffering in their church.

is a lot of support. People will provide food, gifts, or energy. In the secular world, sometimes, I do not see that support or charitable giving. Maybe, it is a little more hidden from the rest of us. I don’t know.

However, that might be another topic in need of more broaching. It is something that we talk about more in our Kelowna group. It is doing more things, being giving, being more charitable, and supporting the community and the people in the group.

Jacobsen: What are some other social and communal activities of KASHA?

Mallett: It is interesting. The events that people seem to love are the pub nights. We are always trying to do new things outside of that. But then, people don’t show up as much.

So, we have a lot of pub nights. We have a lot of coffee times as well. We are trying to do more of these service/speaker topic events. We have a KASHA Forum. We’re working on this now.

We have a dinner. We present on a topic. It has been successful. People really enjoy it. I was not there for it. However, we had a booth at the Pride Parade.

A large number of people went to the Pride Parade under the KASHA banner. From what I heard, it was a very positive event. We got our name out there to people who did not know an atheist, humanist, and skeptic group was in town.

So, that was, from all reports, very positive. It is, mostly, in person things. We do not have a ton of online things going now. We don’t have a ton of online things going, which is something I’ve wanted to work on.

It hasn’t gotten very far, e.g., recording talks, lectures, and having them on YouTube, or having an online community where people can support one another. We do not tend to have a lot of that.

It tends to be a lot of in-person stuff over a coffee, over a bear, type of events. The on that we have done, which has been pretty interesting is an Ask An Atheist series.

We haven’t done this for a few years. We did one at a Baptist church. We reached out to the pastor of the church. He invited anyone in the congregation to ask atheists anything that he wanted to.

It was a really enjoyable, really interesting experience. For this side of our group, I think that we do quite a bit, actually.

Jacobsen: What should skeptics, humanists, and atheists remain continuously vigilant about in British Columbia?

Mallett: For me, it is always the separation of religion and government topics. For example, the one that we were talking about at the Pride Parade. It was the BCHA campaign around the petitioning of the BC Legislature for Humanist marriages.

Right now, if you are a religion in BC, you are given special privileges to officiate marriages. We’re basically supporting BCHA in the cause of allowing humanists and non-religious individuals to have the same right as religious individuals.

I might have taken a different approach. It shouldn’t matter. You should have the same rights to be an officiant at religious ceremonies. Right now, that is not the case here.

It is an excellent example of the kinds of government and religious issues needing vigilance.

Jacobsen: What are some mistakes or missteps of the secular communities in Canada?

Mallett: That’s a tough question. I am not sure. In what I’ve seen, I always feel like there’s a lot more opportunity to promote our presence and to let others know that we even exist now.

I wouldn’t call this a mistake. It is a struggle to try to get yourself out there and to promote yourself. That’s one. I don’t know if any of the other groups do this.

I think more and more are doing this. When we started KASHA, we tried really hard to have some clear policies and guidelines for the membership and the group. I don’t know if other groups do that or not. It is important to us. It is a tough question.

Jacobsen: Any recommended authors, organizations, or speakers in Canada, or even internationally?

Mallett: Canada is tough. I know that we have struggled with that. We always want to see if we can bring a speaker in. I do note that we do get quite a bit of support from the University of British Columbia-Okanagan campus.

We have professor members there. It is a local connection there to the local academics. It has been a good source of speakers and for individuals to come and speak on topics to our group and the wider community too.

We have had events with university professors that attract larger crowds than our little group. In terms of authors or speakers across Canada, I don’t have a lot of names that jump out at me.

The controversial one that everyone talks about is Jordan Peterson, but he is not necessarily a [Laughing] secular speaker. He is definitely someone who touches upon a lot of the boundaries of the sorts of concerns humanists, atheists, and skeptics have.

Internationally, I was always a bit of a history and biology geek. There was a fellow by the name of Robert Price. He has a theology degree. So, I think he is Dr. Robert M. Price. He was teaching in South Carolina or something.

He has a podcast called The Bible Geek. He is an atheist who studies the Bible in depth. He takes questions on it. He was somebody who was instrumental in my leaving of religion because of his skeptical, historical analysis of Christianity and religion in general. He is always someone who I recommend to people.

He has a great sense of humor too.

Jacobsen: What about in history? Someone who is dead.

Mallett: I was a huge fan of Christopher Hitchens. When he passed, it was not that long after I had left religion. I was quite steeped in a lot of his writings, lectures, and YouTube videos.

I was shaken by his passing. I remember the group in Edmonton. He had a debate in Toronto with Tony Blair. We had an event, where everyone watched that together. It was interesting. That’s recent history.

Robert Ingersoll is an amazing freethinker and skeptic. They call him The Great Agnostic. He has one called Mistakes of Moses. I loved his writing.

Again, it more along the lines of the geeky, Bible sort of stuff, where he is being quite critical of the Bible and the Old Testament. I feel bad. I do not know any Canadian freethinkers to mention to you. I will have to do some homework on it.

Jacobsen: Any final feelings or thoughts in conclusion based on the conversation today?

Mallett: A couple things that pop out to me. I do not know if you have much of a religious audience who read your articles. I always think, “From the religious side, if you are somebody steeped in a religion, I wonder why some people seem afraid to examine the claims of those that are skeptical of religion.”

I could reference back to my own experience, in how I was upset in how a Richard Dawkins could exist – just anger, emotional. From the atheist side, it is difficult to maintain the communities, but it is rewarding.

That’s why I give my time and effort to it. It is important for those on the secular side to understand how important it is for those who are leaving religion to give them a soft landing and help them cope, move on, and grow, and become happy, healthy human beings into the future.

I am really thankful that these groups have existed and helped me, in this regard. That’s why I try to support our little KASHA group and keep it strong, and growing, into the future. I think there are good signs that this will happen to us.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Daniel.

Mallett: Yes, that was great.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Mandisa 46 – Contingencies in Running Events

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2019/12/22

Mandisa Thomas, a native of New York City, is the founder and President of Black Nonbelievers, Inc. Although never formally indoctrinated into belief, Mandisa was heavily exposed to Christianity, Black Nationalism, and Islam. As a child she loved reading, and enjoyed various tales of Gods from different cultures, including Greek and Ghanaian. “Through reading these stories and being taught about other cultures at an early age, I quickly noticed that there were similarities and differences between those deities and the God of the Christian Bible. I couldn’t help but wonder what made this God so special that he warrants such prevalence today,” she recalls.

Mandisa has many media appearances to her credit, including CBS Sunday MorningCNN.com, and Playboy, The Humanist, and JET magazines. She has been a guest on podcasts such as The Humanist Hour and Ask an Atheist, as well as the documentaries Contradiction and My Week in Atheism. Mandisa currently serves on the Board for American Atheists and the American Humanist Association, and previously for Foundation Beyond Belief, the 2016 Reason Rally Coalition, and the Secular Coalition for America. She is also an active speaker and has presented at conferences/conventions for the Freedom from Religion Foundation, Secular Student Alliance, and many others.

In 2019, Mandisa was the recipient of the Secular Student Alliance’s Backbone Award and named the Freedom from Religion Foundation’s Freethought Heroine. She was also the Unitarian Universalist Humanist Association’s Person of the Year 2018.

As the president of Black Nonbelievers, Inc., Mandisa encourages more Blacks to come out and stand strong with their nonbelief in the face of such strong religious overtones.

“The more we make our presence known, the better our chances of working together to turn around some of the disparities we face. We are NOT alone.”

Here, we talk about contingencies in running events.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: One thing that can arise in running an event or helping others do so is having contingencies. What should be kept in mind?

Mandisa Thomas: With almost 10 years experience as an event services manager, I can speak to this sufficiently.  For every event, there will be people who sign up or express interest. However, as time and the planning process goes, you will have some that will either not follow up, and even not show up. They will also sign up and drop out. This occurs with attendees and speakers, which can be very frustrating and daunting. Then you have to stay in touch with vendors and other organizers. It’s a constant stream of communication, which at times, feels so one-sided. This is something that should be kept in mind for all events. Prepare for things to not go according to plan. It sounds a bit pessimistic, but it is a good rule of thumb for organizers. Always keep in mind that while a large number of people may show interest, only a certain percentage will attend. Mind the initial numbers if you can help it. Otherwise, you may be responsible for charges, especially if you’re hosting at a venue that requires advance payment. Also, It is important to keep in mind to effectively promote the events. Whether it is through free social media platforms, paid advertising etc, let people know what is going on, but try to avoid sounding like a “bot”, for lack of a better term. Avoid sounding like you’re ONLY reaching out to sell your event.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Thomas: Always anticipate working as if you’re the only one doing the job while also working with a team. Usually, everyone involved will lend a great hand. But at the same time, I can’t help but think, “Hey, there are things that could go wrong”. It is always good to expect the best, but prepare for the wors. It is also good to have checklist for yourself. If organizing isn’t an area of expertise (or even if it is) it is always good to have that, and to establish timeline; to follow-up with folks and to stay on schedule. Ultimately, It is about making sure things don’t go all the way left at the last minute, and ensuring success.

Jacobsen: What were some things that went wrong? You wish you had a contingency, but didn’t.

Thomas: I can’t say anything that was so extreme that it wasn’t fixable [Laughing], or that things fell completely apart. I do recall for BN’s 5th anniversary celebration in 2016, that there were a few speakers who couldn’t attend at the last minute. Luckily, the hotel where we hosted the event was very flexible, and I didn’t have to pay any cancellation fees. But at that time, our materials were already printed, so when they couldn’t, it was like, “Yikes!”

[Laughing] You kinda wish that you knew people couldn’t attend in advance. Because it can become costly.  But there are times when certain circumstances become difficult to gauge, so anticipation is necessary.

That’s one of the worst things. And it is always disappointing when some details fall through. But again, it’s never been anything that we couldn’t handle, and our events always turn out well.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Mandisa.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Larry Mukwemba Tepa – President, Humanists and Atheists of Zambia

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2019/12/22

Larry Mukwemba Tepa is the President of the Humanists and Atheists of Zambia. African states continue to work within some of the hardest conditions for the freethought community throughout the world. The problems are plural with long histories. Some due to internal issues. Other due to historical and external imposition involving colonialism. The post-shockwaves of these effects continue into the present in different forms. The freethinkers of Africa represent a stalwart force to observe, encourage, and support in making their own path and choosing their own way based on the needs of the citizens of each African state. The freethought community, including in Zambia, can be part of this new narrative moving forward.

Here we talk about Larry, his organization, and Zambian culture.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: In your journey, how did you grow up? What was the religious view of the community and of the family?

Larry Mukwemba Tepa: I grew up in a religious family, a religious community. I went to a religious school. Zambia is very religious. So, most of the community is equally religious.

Jacobsen: How is the educational system?

Tepa: The system combined, it has got a lot of secular courses. It has got a lot of religious-ness to it. For example, you can talk about courses, R.E. (Religious Education), and things like that.

Jacobsen: How does identification with one of the main religions in Zambia, basically, influence social perspective, interpersonal value to other people and help one professionally?

Tepa: Zambia is very traditional. Its perspective on religion is very fundamentalist. So, Christianity is rooted with the traditions that we have, in the culture. They both come in one package. How it works for those people who are religious, it works out for them. But then, if you are an outsider, it will be difficult for you. Some companies will not hire you. If you are Muslim, they might. They tend to keep other religions and other religious beliefs to the curb.

They are not that accepting to divergent opinions.

Jacobsen: What are some scandals in Zambia with regards to religion?

Tepa: Just a few weeks to a few days ago, the Ministry of Affairs and Guidance banned a South African celebrity, because he is gay. So, that was a huge scandal. People were wondering what is going on there. Some people agreed with it.

What type of scandal are you referring to?

Jacobsen: A religious leader or someone who identifies as religious in Zambia who gets away with a crime or having a lowered sentence because they identify with or preach that religion. On the other hand, those who do not have a religion being demonized and persecuted in public.

Tepa: In Zambia, we have a public holiday reserved for a specific purpose. It is the national day of repentance, prayer, and reconciliation. That day is used as a political tool to cover up the corrupt practices that are becoming rife. Whenever we have an issue with the way leaders are running the country or there is a serious situation that we need to deal with, our leaders use religion to keep people quiet.

They say, “Let’s pray about it.” 

We have a drought and the country is starving, they will still say “Let’s pray about it.”

And in the end, we really don’t solve anything.

Jacobsen: In conversations with individuals who run secular organizations, such as yourself, and this will be touched on in a few questions, the different treatment of men and women in community is part of the wider culture and, therefore, part of the secular and the religious cultures. How do religions in Zambia treat men and women differently? How does this even influence secular culture in Zambia?

Tepa: It is well-known: Christianity is sexist. It does influence the Zambian culture in a lot of ways. The common belief that the household should have a man as a leader is also part and parcel of culture now. We have people in homes that are subjugated to a hierarchy, where the men are treated like kings and the rest like subjects. For example, if you are a woman, you have to kneel when serving food to men. That is the culture and that is what women are expected to do.

The treatment of women and men in Zambia is based on archaic cultural views, men are considered first class citizens and women are not. We don’t see them having the equal rights that the modern world advocates for. 

Jacobsen: Does this also play out in the privileges men and women have in the community, not simply the rights?

Tepa: Men are incredibly privileged in such a culture. Many things that men can do; women’s can’t. It is a traditional perspective to think that a man can cheat, can go around cheating, but it is wrong if a woman does that. There is a huge, huge, huge gap when it comes to equality between men and women. Recently, there was a case where a Member of Parliament, assualted his wife and she took him to court.

The case was dropped because he is a man in a government position. It is only after a public outcry from many activists and people who want to see equal rights for women, that the case went back to court – such things happen and will happen in a country that doesn’t acknowledge equal rights for women.

Jacobsen: If we are looking at Zambian secular culture, what organizations exist?

Tepa: there is only one organization for secular individuals in Zambia, Humanists and Atheists of Zambia. For the last couple of years we really wanted an organization that can represent the community and last year the organization was officially founded.

Jacobsen: How big is the community?

Tepa: As of now, we have, at least, approaching approximate 400 secular people. At least, the numbers that I see, even close to 500. That would be an accurate description. But then, of course, there are people out there. Sooner or later, we will see these numbers increase.

Jacobsen: What is the age bracket that is most common in it?

Tepa: The majority is under the age of 35. Most are youth. Very few are adults over 35. Because most of the older generation or most of the people are over 35. Their time in this country has been in a very religious one. They have not had the opportunity of expressing their opinions on social media.

Jacobsen: Many African nation-states work within a post-colonial context. People will reference Nelson Mandela, Kwame Nkrumah, and others in a humanistic circle may reference Dr. Leo Igwe working out of Nigeria, as you mentioned. Does Zambia deal with some of the same issues in some of this post-colonial context?

Tepa: Post-colonial context, you mean after the colonial era. People that stood up for rights.

Jacobsen: Yes, the downstream effects of this with the generations living in the current context.

Tepa: The first Zambian president, Kenneth David Buchizya Kaunda, had what we called “Zambian Humanism,” but that is different from secular Humanism. I do not think that he created an environment where divergent opinions or people with different beliefs can co-exist in the country. So, we don’t really have a figure to look back on and say, “This man is the man that really allowed secular beliefs to flourish.” We do not have that.

Zambia is a country that has been declared as a Christian nation and the laws and policies favor the Christian belief more than any other religious or secular beliefs. The country is headed in that direction, growing steadily with a deeply religious majority populace. 

Jacobsen: What task and responsibilities come with the leadership position for you?

Tepa: I recently witnessed how the public reacted to the memo I wrote to our secular community informing them of an event in October. It got shared on various platforms and on various groups and pages. I saw a lot of awful comments because my country has a majority of deeply religious people. So, you get called names and you face discrimination. That’s the most difficult part. 

The part that I enjoy and most people on the Board enjoy is that we are all trying to impact the community in a positive way.

We are trying to fight for the rights of individuals to freely believe in what they think is true, and in what we know is scientifically proven to be true.

Jacobsen: What have been some positive developments in Zambia for the secular?

Tepa: As I mentioned before, the government isn’t headed in that direction. We are headed more into amending laws to favour the Christian belief. Unless.

The Ministry of Religious Affairs and Guidance is a section of the government specifically focused on upholding Christian morals and values and some people expect the Ministry to shut down our organization in its infancy because we are secular humanists.

Jacobsen: Is the Constitution secular?

Tepa: The Zambian constitution recognizes this country as a Christian nation, but also allows the freedom of belief.

Jacobsen: How much funding does religion or Christianity get in the country?

Tepa: It gets a lot of funding, too much funding if you asked me. The government can hire stadiums for people to worship god.

It is considered part and parcel of Zambian culture for the government to fund national gatherings that are religious. 

So, Christianity receiving funding is the norm. People do not question it. Because it is what the majority believes in.

Jacobsen: How else is religion used as a political tool in Zambia?

Tepa:  The second republican president declared Zambia a christian nation in order to win an election. President FTJ Chiluba did that to gain popularity and get votes.

Christianity is widely used by politicians.

Jacobsen: Are there any particularly amusing YouTube clips of purported miracles?

Tepa: In Zambia, we had this character by the name of seer one, he promised people he could make something called miracle money. It was pure comedy and he robbed a great many people before he was deported.

We are exposed to other neighbouring countries’ prophets’ and pastors’ YouTube ‘miracles’ because they frequent Zambia allot. I have seen one where a prophet from Malawi named Bushiri tries to fly or something. There are shadows around him, making us aware that he is being carried.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Tepa: [Laughing] so, there is that.

Jacobsen: Some of this stuff looks so transparent and comical in terms of the level of fraud. What is the way in which people can become involved in secularism through in the organization and in your country?

Tepa: There are a lot of ways. We are quite new to this. People with more experience can come into advise us on how to go about allot of things, especially given the situation we find ourselves in, being in a deeply religious country can be allot of trouble for us. 

We do not have adequate funding for a lot of projects that we hope to do. It is amazing how being a part of Humanists International has helped us with a huge part of our goals and aspirations. 

There are also simple things like books, which would help. People that are new to humanism would learn allot from reading about it. 

Things like that. There are so many ways to get involved. Those are the things that I can think of, off the top of my head.

Jacobsen: Any recommended speakers, writers, or organizations?

Tepa: I’ve been, for a while, looking at Leo Igwe, Armin Navabi. When it comes to organizations, I’ve seen how the Humanists UK do their work. Same with the Humanist Association of Australia. HALEA in Uganda, it has been amazing. Viola Namyalo, she is a really, really good activist. Also, Takudzwa Mazwienduna.

Jacobsen: Yes, his partner is Gayleen Cornelius.

Tepa: Takudzwa, he is a great speaker.

Jacobsen: Any final feelings or thoughts in conclusion based on the conversation today?

Tepa: Thank you for providing me with this opportunity, it has been great to talk about the Zambia and our secular community. I am definitely looking forward to coming to a place where Humanists and Atheists of Zambia are directly influencing, and challenging the cultural and traditional views that a lot of Zambians hold. We would like to make a difference as a humanist community.

I think that’s it, Scott.

Thanks again.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Larry.

Tepa: Alright, have a great day.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Shirley 5 – General Culture and Social Pathologies

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2019/12/22

Shirley Rivera is the Founder and President of the Ateístas de Puerto Rico. The intent is to learn about Puerto Rican atheism and culture, as an educational series.

Here we talk about general culture and social pathologies.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Some sensitive topic to some in several communities. Although, I want to relate this to some personal experience relayed to me. What is something in general culture, seen as a social pathology? How can we work on it? How can we provide some understanding and some solutions?

Shirley Rivera: So, in the topic of sexual harassment, I think this has been a decades-long problem. We are allowing more women to speak out. I see people saying, “This is a modern problem.” No, it is another type of generation.

I think religion has a lot to do with this. Because the females, the women, are less than the males. The boys, you can see how it is more easy for them to accost or harass a person, invalidate that person, not consider the person, and treat them as less.

This is how you have this harassment coming up. It is all the ingredients, “I think she is less than me. I think she cannot defend herself. I think I have the opportunity to do this or that.” You can see how harassment can get into the work environment. In a position of power, it is one.

You can have this thought that she will get something if she does this. When you have these ingredients, they feel powerful. They feel more open to just do that. When you have women in power positions or males are thinking of women as less, as coming from the ribs, it is there.

But in the work environment, it is more beautiful for that to happen because they are in a position of power. More men are at the top. You ask for solicitation. She will see, “If I do this, then I can reach this.”

Not in all cases do women agree to this. Years after, they complain about it. Because they do not realize the problem as much. The abuse of power. She is in a vulnerable position. All those ingredients make this continue, continue, and continue without speaking out. The only way to control this is that the patrons and workers in companies need to know “what is sexual harassment?”

They need parameters on what is sexual harassment. You need to put this clearly. Each company needs to say, “This is sexual harassment. We will ban and not allow solicitation, favours, or try to treat a person, ‘If you do this, then you will get this. If you do not do this, then I hurt you.’”

When you put the parameter for the work environment, the next step is education. In my work environment, they are pretty good. It is strange with this. It still happens. I cannot imagine a company that does not give sexual harassment training.

I went to a conference. This happened last year. She was talking about how to prevent sexual harassment. When she was talking, she said, “Do not put a picture of a vacation when you’re in a swimsuit in your office because it is unprofessional and makes people make opinions about the picture.”

This is the statement. Okay, it can be unprofessional to put a swimsuit picture on your desk. Maybe, it is unprofessional. When you say that, you are sending the message, “If you place a photo with a swimsuit, I can harass you, because you’re in the wrong.”

She didn’t say that. But what happened if she wants to put the picture in her best swimsuit of a vacation? So, he can harass me? I am the one wrong because I put the picture. Who is at fault here? The one who harass or the one who put the picture.

We have to be careful with how we put things. I stay quiet. Because I am angry. If I speak out and tell her, “I am wrong.” I will miss the training. I cannot imagine all the males in the training there with me.

In their mind, they think, “It is wrong to put a picture with speedos or a swimsuit. It is her problem.” You incentivize that culture. You cannot teach them that. You have to teach them respect for people no matter how they are or how they act.

If I want to walk naked in the shop, they have to respect me. Not that I walk naked, or that they want to say whatever they want to me, or that that is an open invitation. It comes with nudity too. People think, “Oh my gosh!”

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Rivera: [Laughing] they give you value based on how much you show. The more you show then the more value you have. Clothing is a concept. It is something that humans create. Animals do not use clothes.

We are the only ones who do that. So, it is respecting enough people no matter how they look. That is how it should be in everything. Like racism, people do not respect them because they are black, are gay, are lesbian.

People are constantly judging everybody. That’s what you have all these issues. If people respected people, they may want to put a cup on the head. Whatever! Respect them no matter how they look, if you did that, you would not have harassment or discrimination, or anything like that.

Jacobsen: If we take a context of mis-statements that can be taken as excuses for blaming the victim, or if we can take the context of professional standards of what can or cannot be shown in a professional work environment, what would be a proper way in presentations, in lectures, in lessons to the community of workers to separate those two? So, there is greater clarity on this issue.

Rivera: One thing is good taste. If you are a pervert, one thing is good taste [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Rivera: It is extreme [Laughing]. It is funny. People need to separate if they are exposed [Laughing]. It is unprofessional. If I go to the bank, I don’t want to see it. It is bad. But it does not mean that it gives me the right to treat them badly.

We have to teach the culture that this is not in good taste. It is not necessary. But if it happens, I still love you. I still think that you’re a good person and have value, and still deserve to be treated right if it happens.

Good taste always and thinking the workplace is for the workplace. If I go to the court, I would not go to show my body. If I go to the beach, then there are places. It is not that I cover me or not. It is picking the right places, good taste [Laughing].

Jacobsen: What would be an appropriate North American, or American, way to enact this? For example, a concrete case of an American business environment. In that business environment, there is a separation and a presentation to the community of workers and managers of appropriate behaviour and dress in terms of professional presentation, and sexual harassment or sexual assault.

Rivera: So, in certain ways, this is a mess [Laughing]. In North America, it depends on who you are talking about. If you see a white girl in Missouri with shorts showing everything, no one thinks anything. But if a black girl, people will think things.

It is funny. I see this everywhere. You can see skinny girl, blonde, with shorts showing half the butt. No one says anything. If a Latina, “Oh my gosh, she is showing everything,” or if a black girl, “Oh my gosh, she does not have good taste.”

It depends on whoever comes. They judge based on the skin colour, here in America.

Jacobsen: How is this problem in business culture reflected in general culture?

Rivera: In the work environment, I have been working for the government for the past 5 years and for private companies for the past 8 or 9 years. Government, you are surrounded by old people. People who are probably less educated, believe it or not.

Then in our private company, people have to fight for their job. You have to be super prepared. In private companies, you can see that there are more liberals, if I can say that word, or more open or easygoing.

It depends on the case. You can see in the work environment; people question more. I wear makeup every day. They say, “Why are you so fancy?” I say, “Fancy? This is my culture. You put on makeup for work.”

So, when you work in a private company, everyone wants to look good. Your image depends. Because it demands that you look good, in shape, always clean. They are more open to everyone doing whatever they want.

In America, in a private company, people are more obsessed with what is proper and improper. I remember months ago. One lady asked me, “Why do you wear a dress here?” Is it illegal to wear a dress here? A long, grandma dress  [Laughing].

Is it necessary to go in slacks or pants all the time? No! You can see how they respect some things. In general, it looks good. I don’t care. I look at your face, not your clothes. Most people here, old people here, are more obsessed with their own concept of what is a good thing.

What is the right way to dress for work? Pretty much, I guess, people are obsessed about other people’s lives.

Jacobsen: Does some of this confusion on the topic of sexual harassment, sexual assault, the professionalization of the workplace and dress, reflect an almost “when in Rome” situation?

When the subculture, whether Missouri or Puerto Rico, or a work culture with older people like the government, or younger people like a music studio, it can be different.

Where the amount of skin showed, what skin showed, what coloir of dress, the flashiness of the dress and the makeup, and so on, is seen as varying degrees of flaunting an inappropriate or an appropriate manner?

Rivera: Yes, it is the whole thing. Who has it? Where they have it? That’s the whole thing.

Jacobsen: This is like when we were kids learning about the “who, what, where, when, and why.”

Rivera: Yes, probably.

Jacobsen: What would be seen in American culture, generally, as almost always a red line that should never be crossed in a professional context? Young culture, old culture, and so on.

Rivera: In my personal space, youth clothes is related to black people. That is not tolerated. It is interesting because Caribbeans use the same colourful stuff, same fabrics. You will see white people do not use that.

When you use something like that, you are Hispanic. In their brains, it is code for black people. I have dresses that I buy like the Jamaican people.  People ask, “Where do you get that dress? You can see through the dress.”

It is where they associate that. If you get a Calvin Klein dress, no one will say anything. If I get Jamaican dress, same dress or shorts, then you will get a different comment. It is pre-judgment. I am guessing.

That has, pretty much, been my experience.

Jacobsen: Has the country acted poorly or well to the mass movements arising mostly on social media but important because they are based on conversations about and among women, and some men, on sexual harassment in the workplace? I mean in the context of the culture handling it.

In other words, people bring forth trauma, instances of abuse.

Rivera: So, the perception, I see how they perceive this stuff. Males, what I see, they think, “Oh, another class of this. Feminist drama.” For them, not all of them, or most of them, these are unnecessary because they have not been exposed to those uncomfortable moments.

They do not understand that. This is an example that I bring to you because of the photo in the desk. It went very deep to me. We can relate this to these questions. They feel as though this is normal.

They see that if they ‘compliment’ to a female, then it is okay. It depends on what is a compliment. I say, “Nice hair color,” or say, “I want to pull your hair.” It is about the hair.

Jacobsen: Who are these men?

Rivera: [Laughing] it is a contest. I can tell you. “I like that dress” compared to “I want take off that dress.” So, they do not see the difference between what is a compliment and what is an uncomfortable comment.

I do not think that they see the difference. They do not pay attention to the classes because they do not think this happens.

Jacobsen: What about some sectors of men throwing their hands up and saying, “We’re at ground zero again. We have to go back to basics. I do not know how to act anymore.”

Rivera: They are frustrated.

Jacobsen: But more compassionate, those sectors of men who do not know what to do anymore. Although, it seems like an exaggerated response to me. What is a gentle and friendly response or retort to that, to some men?

Rivera: It is hard. Maybe, it is bad to me. Maybe, it is not the same for another woman. Maybe, they want to throw everything away and then do not want to do anything about it. Maybe, they should be always looking for consent before doing something.

It doesn’t have to be, “Hey, can I have consent?” [Laughing] it doesn’t have to be that. I don’t want to say, “Men sometimes act stupid” [Laughing]. Sometimes, they do not know what is appropriate or not.

This guy, when he was saying goodbye the other day, he leaned into me. I do not always have a relationship that is that comfortable. Maybe, a guy and I meet as we have known each other for years. It is different than someone who I knew for a few days or weeks.

You need consent. If you are asking for nice photos on the desk, you should maintain a distance and maintain a separation between friends and colleagues. For me, I know it can be frustrating. They say, “I am scared to go on a date with someone because I don’t know when I go over the line of harassment.”

Or you date a girl. You have a night together. Then she says the next day that you assault her. She didn’t consent. But what is consent? How can females make that clear? How can males assume what is not consent? How can males look for consent or assume it is consent?

Because usually, we assume this. That’s our brain. We see faces. We think it is mild. We interpret this in our brain. In my mind, he thinks, “This isn’t okay. I can touch this person, because I assumed something.”

For males interacting with females, they assume because she is talking with him about some topics. He feels as though he can do this or do that. It is because people assume all the time. She is smiling.

Maybe, she is smiling because she is uncomfortable. In my case, it happens often. Sometimes, when I am uncomfortable, I smile. If the person do not know me, they do not know this is a scared smile, not a happy smile.

That’s the problem. We have to give a personal space to people, and do not take extra rights if you do not know the person or are not close to that person. For males, it can be difficult, “How can I introduce myself with this girl and try to show that I like her?”

It is confusing. However, time with the other person, in their personal space. Because I can talk with a male, have a great conversation, smile, be open, and friendly. It doesn’t mean that “I want to take off your dress” [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing] if we read online articles, we can see women and men using these various apps, Grindr, Tinder, etc. In Iceland, apparently, they have one, specifically, for Icelanders. The reason: Iceland vastly, mostly ethnic Icelandic.

So, if they want to sleep with someone, then they put themselves on the app. Then they can see, “Oh, you’re not my third cousin.”

Rivera: [Laughing].

Jacobsen: So, men and women use these. They come in a variety of forms. At the same time, almost all women, probably, if they see one, they don’t like it. I’m speaking of lewd images, e.g., men’s genitalia, sent to them.

Men showing this off as if it is a display in a fine art museum.

Rivera: [Laughing].

Jacobsen: Perhaps, one actionable would be to kibosh that part of sub-culture.

Rivera: If it works for some people, why not? [Laughing]

Jacobsen: [Laughing] your hesitation makes the point for me.

Rivera: [Laughing].

Jacobsen: Does some of this reflect either a breakdown or a communication that was not ever there? If we look at North American culture, and if we’re looking at the questions, “What is consent?”, or if we use the terminology, “When does someone fully, enthusiastically consent?”

Rivera: Call my attorney [Laughing].

Jacobsen: I believe Dave Chappelle had a joke about this called “The Love Contract.”

Rivera: What is consent?

Jacobsen: There are bombastic spokes-dolts around the public sphere asking these questions in a non-curious, non-inquisitive, and hostile way. However, if the tone is appropriate, these questions can be important.

Does this aspect of North American culture of all the views coming forward, people feeling like they couldn’t come forward before, people not knowing in response when something is or is not appropriate, reflect a breakdown in communication or an aspect of communication that was never there?

Rivera: Exactly, people use body language for consent. So, that’s when I talk about “assume.” People assume by body language, “I am welcome to do this.” Plus, all the ingredients that we talked about earlier.

Body language should not be considered consent, in a way. But maybe, people have been using this for years. Sometimes, it works. Sometimes, it doesn’t work, and very badly. When you cross the line of touch, there is no way back.

Maybe, you can say something inappropriate for that person or something without consent or try to go the extra mile. It hurts less than saying, “Oops, sorry.” If you touch the person wrong, you will lose that person forever.

In some ways, that person will feel uncomfortable and will try to avoid you forever. That happened to me. You cannot be there. It came into my mind whenever I see that person. Males do not understand that.

It happens to males in other ways. For females, it is traumatizing when it comes to touch. I get compliments all the time. I already handle it. [Laughing] “another one,” if you are not welcome or do not have consent, or do not have permission to do that, it is traumatizing.

Some males do not understand that. They do not see how deep things can go into somebody. You never forget that. They do not understand because they have never been exposed to it. Unless, you have 100% empathy skills.

Jacobsen: Does this level of uncomfortableness reflect many conversations with girlfriends?

Rivera: How?

Jacobsen: If you’re relaying an experience to women friends of yours, do they, if they have a similar experience, feel the same?

Rivera: I guess. So, yes. I have been stronger than other females who I know who have been through this. Some, they just quit the job. Sometimes, they just stay quiet about it. I feel as though I have been stronger than other females.

I don’t quit. Because I am not the person who commits the mistake. I think this problem is bigger than we thought. Females, because they feel less than automatically based on the culture in place, are scared of people pre-judging them, “This happened to you because you were talking to him.”

People will always to place the fault on you, “You are the main reason for this happening. You are the reason for this happening.” I think, in my friends’ experiences, it is the same thing that I have been through.

You freeze when it happens. When it happens, you do not know how to react, even if you practice before. What you will say, you will forget in the moment. You do not know what to tell this person in the moment, or to avoid the situation, or to tell him clearly that you do not like it.

Even if you are a very powerful woman in an emotional way, you forget it. For some reason, you are thinking, “They will be bad to me, not to him.” That is the main thing.

You feel, “Oh my gosh, if you say this to him, it will be awkward. Everybody will think bad about me.” All of those things are why you think, “If this happens in a company, then someone close in the company may think this or that about me.”

This is the main stuff. It is those things that come into your thoughts. Because I was reflecting on it. I think that was the main thing coming to me. I was having people around me. I was totally, in my innocence, never drunk, never been in a marriage, nothing.

Why did I freak out? It is the same thing. I would feel bad if other people would react to me. How would they react if I talked about this? That’s what it is in my experience.

Jacobsen: Does this reflect a strong sex and gender difference between males and females, men and women, in terms of the level of feeling about and, potentially, callousness about this?

Rivera: Clearly, because females are being more exposed to this, it is probably 8 females to 2 males. It is very common. It is hard. It is hard, hard.

Jacobsen: What would be a recommendation for men and women victims, or girl and boy victims, to come forward, so this doesn’t sit for months and years?

Rivera: Not just looking for help. You have to understand how to be strong because it will happen again. It will happen again. It has happened 5 times to me. One person held me in front of the camera. If you are a bad person, you do this in front of a camera.

If it is in front of a camera, then you believe this behaviour is okay. But it is not okay. When it happened, this person grabbed me. How in the world can you hold a person in front of the camera and not let them go? It happened 2 years ago to me. I was freaked out.

I was like “leave me alone.” I didn’t want him to touch me. I walked out. I told my boss, “This just happened.” She said, “Just walk out of the building. Do whatever you need to do. Get out of there.” That person, of course, got in trouble and lost their job after that.

To me, it is serious with a camera and 20 people there, and in the work environment in the middle of some break room [Ed. Rivera worked on television.]. People know me. I am well. I am a good person. I do not know what happens if this happens to a lady without many friends, in the back, in a factory.

All these stories about rape. They always blame the victim. This bothers me more thinking about how this can be possible to me. I think, “What can happen to other people who are not loud like me, not strong like me?” I can’t live with that. I think, “This is not right.”

I do the right thing. I kick the person. I do this the right way. I wish that I had the strength to kick and push this person in the right moment [Laughing]. Why do we not do that? Why are we not more strong and aggressive? They are more strong and aggressive. We should be stronger.

It is something that I have to change personally. I have to be stronger and louder when something like that happens. But it bothers me when this happens to someone who is not like me. It is going to get deeper into my own experiences.

I know, I know. It’s hard.

Then there was one last week. I told you. It is that often. Two times in one week, one on Tuesday and one on Saturday; it is two different people in a work environment.

Jacobsen: What do you think is going to be the fallout of this?

Rivera: In my case or in general?

Jacobsen: In general.

Rivera: It will fall in parts. We have to start this as soon as they understand talk. We have to not talk about this but put this into practice. It happened today to me. Today, one of our people, I talked and gave an answer to the people. They want to talk to my boss. Why? They will give the same answer.

My boss said, “They think since you’re a woman, then they will give a different answer. It is because you’re a woman.” We have to show the kids. If a female worker, then show that you think that she can do a good job. Then the kids will understand automatically that it is the same. The male and females are capable of doing the same bad or great things

They deserve to be treated right. They deserve the same opportunities to grow. It is funny. When you see these cases of females raping boys, you see, “I wish I had a teacher like that when I was in school.” You think this is stupid. You are making fun of it.

No one thinks about it. If it happens to a girl, everyone gets crazy about it. You can see how this culture affects males too. It is affecting them too. You are now victimizing the males. So, you can feel compassion in the same way. You can be better next. He will move on.

When female, you take her. You victimize her. You feel compassion for her. It is the same thing. When a girl is raped, you victimize her. You think she cannot defend herself. You see that in these types of situations when people are partial with how they ask about these situations like this.

Jacobsen: Does this seem like a strange inversion of the callousness? Young age, compassion for one group. Callousness towards the other. Both grow up, then it inverts.

Rivera: [Laughing] maybe, maybe.

Jacobsen: Any final thoughts?

Rivera: I think we need to have compassion for males or females. We need to start the culture. This is the only way to have things in balance between the genders and other genders too. I think people need to start this new generation with all these things the right way, to treat people right.

When you respect people no matter how they look, no matter what they’re like, everything will come as automatic good. When you have that as a base, and when you don’t prejudge everyone, you can let the people be. When you understand that, then you can understand that.

When we see these females do this or do that, we can see in China one of the high ranking ministers who is a female, which is among the first time that high. You can probably see these kids taking this as normal. They are normalizing women in high positions with women capable of doing anything.

When you see women as capable of doing anything, parents will need to be strong in doing this as school is not doing this. School is not teaching a gender perspective education. I am pretty sure gender perspective education is important for these human rights because of homophobia, patriarchy, and so on, otherwise.

The harassment, the discrimination, you should understand everyone is a human. When you understand everyone is a human, this can remove any bad treatment or discrimination, or not taking care of people, when you see everyone as the same s you. This is one of the problems with social classes.

People also discriminate to corner people. People do not talk about it. People talk about black, white, lesbian, and so on. But if rich and gay, no one will mess with you.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Rivera: [Laughing].

Jacobsen: Because you’re fabulous.

Rivera: Exactly. But if you are a poor gay, you will have double discrimination. If you are a gay president, everyone will love you no matter what because you are in a position of power. You will have to reach that, though. The only way people can reach their goals is fairly and with respect, respect, respect.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Shirley.

Rivera: Thank you, Scott. Bye.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Interview with Neil Barber – Communications Officer, Edinburgh Secular Society

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2019/12/21

Neil Barber is the Communications Officer for the Edinburgh Secular Society. Here we talk about his life, work, and views.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What is family background, e.g., geography, culture, language, and religion or lack thereof?

Neil Barber: I was Christened in a Catholic church to please my Grandmother. My mother unlearned her Catholicism when first married due to the church’s silly prescription on contraception: my parents couldn’t afford to have children at the time and were not about to abstain from sex! My dad was an atheist/agnostic.

Jacobsen: Following from the last question, how have these factors influenced personal life and views?

Barber: My parents wanted me to make up my own mind re: religion. As a child I’d liked to have believed: I was attracted to the ritual and mysticism… but then I discovered my rational intellectual self and Dungeons and Dragons!

Jacobsen: How does a rejection of the supernatural change the way one lives one’s life? How does an understanding of the natural influence views on life and meaning in the light of the aforementioned rejection?

Barber: When you realize that you only have one life and that meaning is not given by a supernatural being, you are free to maximize every waking moment of your brief and lucky existence.

The notion of “jam tomorrow” promised by religious notions of an afterlife can be a cruel and time-wasting distraction from that urgency, not to mention the warping of morality often associated with religious belief.

Jacobsen: What are your tasks and responsibilities at the Edinburgh Secular Society as the communications officer?

Barber: Writing letters and tweets on topical issues. Taking part in debates on television and radio. Fronting campaigns. Composing soundbites for impact.

Jacobsen: What does an average event or activist of the Edinburgh Secular Society look like?

Barber: Members tend to be atheist or humanist.

Meetings involve discussion to arrive at society-wide policy which licences my public statements as Communications Officer. We discuss tactics for ongoing campaigns. We sometimes have guest speakers.

Jacobsen: How is the integration with the larger culture for the Edinburgh Secular Society? How does secularism provide a greater range of flexibility than atheism?

Barber: Atheism (as actively expressed by Humanists) is, of course, the rejection of belief in any gods. Secularism, at least as understood in Scotland, has no philosophic position at all and is simply a principle of social administration by which religion is kept separate from the state. We say …believe what you want as long as you don’t presume to impose these views on others through privileged platforms in education and government bodies. You are free to recruit adults to your faith if you can, but children must be protected from proselytizing at an intellectually vulnerable age. 

In the UK we have bishops in The House of Lords; compulsory religious education in state schools; faith schools funded by the taxpayer; religions are exempt from many aspects of equality legislation; the state tiptoes politely around religious demands to the right surgically to alter the genitals of children, discriminate against gay people or promote non-stun animal slaughter;  religions are allowed charitable status (with the associated tax breaks) simply because they are “promoting religion”; despite now being a minority in the UK, religious leaders are the default stewards of civic events such as Remembrance.

Jacobsen: What are some joint activities with other faith/non-faith groups in the larger community?

Barber: There are some adherents to non-Christian religions who are secular sympathizers as they similarly don’t want to see the privileging of Christianity. Secularists have a qualified affiliation with Humanists: neither of us wants to see Christians being privileged but the Humanist solution sometimes is to have Humanists sharing the privilege which Secularists feel is a step in the wrong direction.

Jacobsen: Who are some recommended speakers, authors, or organizations?

Barber: We have had talks/discussions with many people who have a concern about religious privilege: LGBT leaders, academics, moderate religious groups, authors whose work has been censored by religious gatekeepers, those whose campaigns have been opposed by privileged religious pressure e.g. assisted dying, marriage equality, abortion etc.

Jacobsen: Any final feelings or thoughts in conclusion?

Barber: I have a friend from Texas who was over in Scotland studying for a year. She reported that the Texas humanist/secularist/atheist scene was so small that there was little room for the delineations she discovered in Scotland.

Fewer than half of all Scots now identify as having any religion and Christianity is a further subset of that minority. Even if the numbers were more favourable to Christianity, as they used to be, it would still be wrong to impose religious views on others. The secular mantra is “Freedom of religion and freedom from religion.” Secularism protects all. In countries where the religion IS the state the first thing they do is discriminate against minority religions. The Pakistan government recently voted down a proposal to make it legal to have a non-Muslim prime minister! Of course ironically in The UK, we similarly have religious restrictions: the head of state (queen) must be a Protestant!

Edinburgh Secular Society is currently campaigning against a generations-old anachronism that is three unelected religious representatives sitting on all local education committees. This surely derives from a time when religion was deemed to be good for all.

We do not oppose the adult choice to hold religious beliefs but they should not be privileged in government, schools or the law.

There is, of course, a big overlap between secularists and atheists but, in campaigning, we are concerned to play that down to avoid our opponents saying, “Well you would say that…you’re an atheist”

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Neil

Barber: You’re welcome mate. Canada seems to lead the way on so many issues. Good luck in the future.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Interview with Dean Smith – Founder, Freethought Society of the Midlands

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2019/12/20

Dean Smith is the Founder of the Society of the Midlands. Here we talk about him and some of the work of the society (FSM).

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What is the family background? How is this important for understanding the context of family life?

Dean Smith: I was raised Pentecostal,  spoke in tongues and everything. I didn’t become an atheist until I was in my mid-thirties.

Jacobsen: When was the Freethought Society of the Midlands founded? What were some of the guiding principles?

Smith: The FSM was founded as a Meetup in 2003 under the name Agnostics,  Atheists, and Freethinkers of the Midlands. The idea was that it would be a way for like-minded Freethinkers to meet and socialize. 

Jacobsen: What is the difference between the Drinking Skeptically and the more topical meetings?

Smith: Drinking Skeptically is in a restaurant that serves alcohol,  though most of us don’t drink much. There’s no topic,  agenda, or business;  just socializing.  I heard of a similar event when I attended the Amazing Meeting several years ago and we copied it.

Jacobsen: What have been some coordinated political and social actions with the surrounding communities and organizations of the Midlands?

Smith: Some of our members participate in Atheists Helping the Homeless and /or make donations to that local cause. Occasionally we will collect donations for other local charities like Sister Care. Our primary purpose is to provide a community for Freethinkers. 

Jacobsen: What makes a freethinkers group, potentially, more able to play with a wider range of ideas than others?

Smith: Because we’re almost purely a social group,  we connect with all kinds of people,  and entertain seriously all kinds of ideas. If something is supported by evidence and reason, the principles of free thought require us to take it seriously. Nothing is automatically wrong just because it doesn’t fit whatever worldviews we may have in place.

Jacobsen: What is Atheists Helping the Homeless?

Smith: AHH is a cause championed by our member and founder of Palmetto Atheists,  Steve Weston.  The purpose of the group is to assist homeless people with necessary sundries while also kind of pointing out that atheists help people too. It’s a nationwide charity that Palmetto Atheists and FSM support.

Jacobsen: What is the FSM Kiva Team?

Smith: Kiva offers a conduit to provide small loans to disadvantaged persons and groups so they can improve their lives, such as by helping buy seed for crops or equipment for a business.  FSM has a Kiva Team and members have made dozens of loans over the years through the team.

Jacobsen: What have been the important developments of the community over time?

Smith: FSM has been around for 16 years, and in that time has grown from a small group meeting once a month in a coffee/dessert bar to having over 50 active members who attend at least one of our several monthly meetings. We have become moRe gender diverse and have more family involvement than the sort of ‘boys club’ we were in our first few years.

Jacobsen: How does the work of the Freethought Society of the Midlands make the news if at all? If so, why? If not, why not?

Smith: I think we may have made a human interest story once or twice, but I don’t remember any details. We haven’t sought publicity,  we have members who don’t feel they can afford the consequences of being outed as atheists, usually professionally or at home, so we don’t do much to raise our profile. 

Jacobsen: Any recommended authors, organizations, or writers?

Smith: I personally would recommend The Case Against God by George Smith  (no relation). 

Jacobsen: Any final feelings or thoughts in conclusion based on the conversation today?

Smith: When I started the group,  I had read that atheists on average didn’t live as long as theists.  A little more reading showed that wasn’t true in Western Europe.  At the time I was 42 and had knowingly met only two other atheists my whole life. I thought that might be part of the reason for the difference in lifespans,  that in America it was harder for atheists to connect with like-minded people and that lack wasn’t good for them. But with tools like Meetup and Facebook, there was a new way to reach out and arrange to meet IRL, even in religiosly conservative state like South Carolina. 

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Dean.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Interview with Jonathan Engel, J.D. – President, Secular Humanist Society of New York

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2019/12/19

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New York. Engel took the reins from John Rafferty who I have interviewed before, as we will see in this particular interview. This was an enjoyable interview with a funny, gregarious, and generous man, Engel. This, I hope, will give some insight into some aspects of New York secular humanism in the midst of an entertaining conversation.

Here we talk about his life, work, and views.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Superhero stories are popular now with Thanos and the like. So, origin story, what is it?

Jonathan Engel: I was born in 1958 on Long Island. I was raised in a Reform Jewish household. But we had an interesting, more than interesting [Laughing], event. In 1962, I have an older brother who is 7 years older. In 1958, I was born. My father with some neighbour started a lawsuit against the local school district because the local school district has adopted a prayer in the morning in the school.

My father and 4 other neighbours started a lawsuit that was Engel v. Vitale, 370 U.S. 421. It went to the Supreme Court. It was the suit where the court decided that organized school prayer in public school was a violation of the Constitution. It was a pretty big case. I remember our next-door neighbour, the Roth family.

They were part of the suit too. When I was about 5-years-old when the suit was decided, there was hate mail, threatening phone calls. My father got a phone call in his office saying, ‘We have your kids,” to him. It was bad.

One of my earliest memories of my life, when I was 5-years-old, was hearing sirens in the middle of the night, and waking up and seeing flashing lights, and finding out someone burned a cross on or neighbour’s driveway, that was one of the earliest memories [Laughing] of my life.

Like I said, I was Bar Mitzvah’d. We started off pretty skeptical. I am not sure if my father really believed. There was once a quote from Golda Meir. The former Israeli prime minister, she was asked if she believed in God. [Laughing] she tip-toed around it. She said, “I believe in the Jewish people. And I believe the Jewish people believe in God.”

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Engel: My father kind of liked that. It was a cultural thing. How much he really believed? I don’t know. This was more to the point; my parents are very committed to civil liberties. They were founding members of the Nassau County Civil Liberties Union. They thought “This is wrong.”

Larry Roth, our next-door neighbour, was an atheist. My father didn’t want his kids praying in the way that they said that they should pray. My father didn’t want Larry Roth’s kids to have to pray if they didn’t want to do it.

That was sort of a big part of my youth and upbringing, etc. But I didn’t really pursue that. I went to law school. I am a lawyer. I have had a general civil practice for a lot of years. Basic stuff, real estate, trusts, estates, and stuff like that; I decided that I didn’t want to do that anymore.

My brother, one of my brothers, came to me after our father died – about 10 years ago – and said, “One of us should be talking about the Engel v. Vitale case,” [Laughing], “People don’t remember it enough. And I think it should be you” [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Engel: I said, “Okay.” I put together a presentation about school prayer in general and the Engel v Vitale case in particular. I was searching around for groups to give my presentation to. I have given it to a number of groups. The last time that I gave it. There is a high school in New York City, Stuyvesant High School, which is one of the best high schools in New York City. I gave a lecture to the AP History class on the case.

One of the groups that I happened to contact. It was John Rafferty at the Secular Humanist Society. He said, “Do you want to give the presentation?” I said, ‘Yes, sure.” When I learned more about Secular Humanism, I thought, “That sounds like what I believe.” What really solidified that for me, I was a History major in college. I studied, primarily, 20th-century European History.

I took classes on the Holocaust. I was always skeptical. After that, I thought, “That’s ridiculous. The God that they tell me about. He could have stopped it.” It is like the Epicurus thing. If God isn’t all-powerful, who is he? If he is malevolent, etc., it didn’t make sense to me. I thought, “This is ridiculous.” The horrors of this were mindboggling.

But also, supposedly, we were his Chosen people. Chosen for what?! It never made sense. A lot of it never made any sense to me. In any event, when I went and gave the presentation, I gave their materials too. Eventually, I joined as a member of the Secular Humanist Society of New York.

Then they asked me to be on the Board. So, I said, “Okay.” I have been on the Board for a few years. Last year, John, who has been the man for a number of years, said, “I am over 80. It is time for me to step back a little bit.” To me, it seemed like the right place. Then the Board, all of them lined up.

John said, “Who ever wants to be President step forward?” Everyone stepped back. So, [Laughing]…

Jacobsen: …[Laughing]…

Engel: …I am the President. I am really getting my feel for it, my feet wet. We had our first Board meeting where I presided over a couple of weeks ago. It seems to be the way it’s happening. I am getting into it. I am getting into meeting people, meeting people from other organizations. Things like that. We will see how we go.

Jacobsen: You were mentioning the legal case. You were also mentioning some of the experiences of doublemindedness, the cognitive dissonance, in being raised in a culture with one idea and then being confronted with the facts of the world about other ideas.

Where, you have a supernatural world being proposed by wider culture and a naturalistic world, implied at least, by a more literate culture. How did you grapple in terms of interaction with others while having this cognitive dissonance? What was the reaction to you?

Engel: To be honest with you, I am not a really confrontational person, which is weird for a lawyer. It is one of the reasons that I didn’t like it. Mostly, I kept my head down. I wasn’t among people who were, actually, really believers. My parents, you go to Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashanah. My mother likes music. That sort of thing of the Jewish ceremonies and services.

I didn’t come right out and say anything. It wasn’t in my face anywhere. None of my friends, growing up, were particularly religious. In college, a group of friends, I didn’t know anyone particularly religious or religious at all. I sort of stopped, too. One of the things, through high school, I would go with my father to services.

I didn’t really want to do it. It was mostly high holy days. If my father said to go with him, then I would go with him. When I was in college in Buffalo, in New York, when high holy days arrived, I wasn’t there. I was in school, not at home. That was the end of it. I just stopped going.

I got married. My wife and I, once we had kids, joined a local synagogue. Both kids were Bar Mitzvah’d. I had no problem with that. It is an interesting right of passage. To my way of thinking, it is tough to be 13-years-old and stand up there, and read the Torah to a bunch of people.

But in terms of actual belief in any of it, I didn’t have it. I’d go and listen to it. There are certain aspects of the service or the Bible stories, which really drove me out of my mind. I thought, “This is horrible. What in the world?” Yom Kippur [Laughing], one of my sons a few years ago.

He said he was going to fast on Yom Kippur. I said, “Why?” He said, “I want to test it.” That night, we went to breakfast. They had a bar. My son is of age. My son was drinking. My son didn’t realize that he was the only one fasting there. He drank and then got sick.

The next day, I said to him, “There are two things that I want you to learn here. One, never drink on an empty stomach. Two, fasting on Yom Kippur is for suckers.” Hopefully, he took that to heart. It is insane. If you want to make amends for things that you’ve done that are wrong, there’s nothing wrong with that. It is a good thing.

But do something! How is making yourself sick and depriving yourself of water going to do that?! If you feel like you need to take a day to do good deeds, how is not eating going to help anybody? It is not like the food that you’re not eating is going to go to anyone else. What is the purpose of this?

The more and more that I thought about it. I didn’t talk about it too much at home. It didn’t really matter. My parents weren’t that religious. We didn’t keep kosher. Basically, they belonged to a temple. On Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashanah, they went to services. I think it was out of tradition more than anything.

I know mother never was. She is still around, 95, and is not a believer. It wasn’t that big of a deal. My older brother, my younger brother, my sister, none of them really are particularly religious. The weird part is that being Jewish is that the culture and the ethnicity intertwine with the religion.

It is like separating those things is an interesting thing to my way of thinking. I say, as an example, I have a friend who is of Irish descent, who was born in the United States with Irish ancestry and Catholic. If he decided that he didn’t want to be Catholic anymore, doesn’t want to go to church or believe in it, he would still be of Irish heritage.

You wouldn’t take that away. But with Jewish people, it is intertwined and intermixed a little bit. You are Jewish as indicating both culture and religion. It was an interesting journey for me to mix those things. I feel culturally and ethnically Jewish. But I cannot be considered religiously Jewish because I do not believe in God, the miracles, or the supernatural. Anything to do with that.

I think prayer is absolutely 100% useless. If something happens to me, come and rescue me, and if I am drowning, please don’t pray for me, come and rescue me, please! I do not believe in an afterlife or any of those things. But I am still culturally and ethnically Jewish.

When people come to dinner, I still serve too much food.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Engel: [Laughing] it is part of the culture. “You made all this!” What can I say? It is part of my culture. No one should go home hungry.

Jacobsen: Is there extra food on Yom Kippur [Laughing]?

Engel: [Laughing].

Jacobsen: No one is fasting here. There should be extras.

Engel: For a while, I used to say, “I don’t fast, but I eat a little bit less. Because I figure my sins aren’t that bad. If a guy who was a murderer can be get rid of his sins by not eating at all, then, maybe, a guy who was a little grouchy every once in a while can get rid of his sins by just cutting down a little.” See, that’s logic.

But I do not think that goes with religion that well.

Jacobsen: Why did America in the 20th century harbour such strong religious commitments? We can watch the videos of Billy Graham and others.

Engel: Right.

Jacobsen: We can watch across the religious spectrum, particularly with the Christian denominations, in the United States. Why the high numbers of religious people? Also, why the high numbers of fervent belief, of the zeal?

Engel: That’s an interesting question. When you look at the dynamic opposed to countries with official religions. You look at Europe. The Church of England is the official church of England. Yet, people in England tend to be less religious than the United States. But people think that since we do not have an official religion, then religions are competing for adherents.

Since they’re competing for adherents, it becomes a contest. There is a lot of outreach. There is a lot of proselytizing. There is a lot of “come on, come on, come on over here!” In England, people think, “Good old Church of England, the country Vicar,” and so on. People don’t really go to church.

Over here, people see, “This guy, he will do good for you,” especially in the mid-20th century and a little later onwards. The start of the Prosperity Gospel, “You will make money. You will do this.” People have fallen for this left, right, and center. But there seems to be more of it here. I think that’s part of it.

Today, a lot of this is the reaction to the times, to the people, to the times changing. That good old time religion isn’t what is used to be. Gay people used to know to stay in closet. Now, they don’t stay in the closet anymore. People think, “It is a lack of religion.” People can blame all sorts of social ills on it.

“People are getting away from religion.” And people are getting away from religion! Some people are crazy enough to think, “If we aren’t religious enough, we will get more earthquakes and hurricanes!” But that’s how people remember it always was. People were more religious.

As science advances, it makes sense that people tend to become less religious. Let’s face it: the Bible makes certain scientific claims about the age of the Earth. It is absolutely wrong! People learn, “That’s not right. The Earth is not 10,000 years old.” They think, “What else did they teach in religion class that was wrong too?” They worry about people becoming more secular.

It is that people are afraid of the change. I think that’s what is a lot of what is going on in our country with Trump. People – a lot of people – feel the world is changing. To me, to my way of thinking, a society has to change or the society dies. If society is static, it gets caught in a rut and never goes anywhere.

You lose out on what you had. To me, societies need to change. But a lot of people are afraid of it, especially white people. They are afraid that they are losing their status in society. They think back to the days in the 1950s when black people were in the back of the bus; gays were in the closet; and women were in the home cooking. That was it.

“That has comfort, to me.” That change scares them. It becomes, “Let’s be more fervent. The preacher Falwell telling us to be submissive to their husbands. Homosexuality is an abomination from God.” So, the idea is to go back to that. But the genie will never go back into the bottle. It will never happen.

More and more people in this country are identifying as having no particular religion. I think it is easier for people to say, “I have no particular religion,” rather than, “I am an atheist.” It is hard because it has been demonized so much. With Engel v Vitale case, one of the things that I mention is that religion got entwined with anti-Communism.

Because Communists were considered atheists. The Soviet Union was an atheist country. People wanted to differentiate themselves. Americans and Soviets, the Capitalists and the Commies were different. One was, “We are a God-fearing people.” I think that’s why the school wanted to bring the prayer into the school in the first place.

It was a reaction to the Cold War and the fight against those God-less Communists. I think the religion became tied up with nationalism, with American Nationalism “If you are American, a Real American, you are a Christian.” One thing that drives me insane. The idea: if you are religious, then you are more moral.

You see it. It is receding; I hope. But you see this all the time, “So-and-so was such a good kid. He always went to church.” 20 years ago or so, there was a spy who was caught named Aldrich Ames. I think he is still in prison. He was spying for the Russians. The New York Times did a front-page article on him.

After he had been arrested, it was national news. It was a background article called “The Paradox of the Pious Spy.” They wrote, ‘He came to church. No one can believe it. He spied against his own country. He was a Deacon in his church.’ I said, “Wait a minute – what difference does that make?”

They think that because somebody is up there somehow who controls the world and started this 10,000 years ago – even though, the world is over 4 billion years old; somehow, that makes them a better person. “How does that make you a better person than me? Are you kind to people? Are you charitable to people? Are you decent to people?” These are the things that matter to a person’s character.

How that matters, I have no idea. Nobody ever explained this to me. But boy, you still see it. Last year, 2018, there was started in the United States something called The Freethought Caucus in the U.S. House of Representatives by 4 people. Now, there’s 10.

There are caucuses. There is the Black and Hispanic Caucus. There is the Freedom Caucus; these are the right-wing assholes (not the Black and Hispanic Caucus or the Freethought Caucus). Patriotism being the last refuge of the scoundrel.

So, they started a Congressional Freethought Caucus. They are up to 10 members. It is showing people. Because there are good people doing good for their communities who are not believers. I think that’s one of the things that I think is really important.

It is one of the things going forward; that I would like to put out there more, etc. We have to be visible. People who are nonbelievers. We have to be visible. I equate this with the Gay Rights Movement. It becoming visible was such a big part of the Gay Rights Movement.

People say, “This guy up the hall. Bachelor, never married… oh! He’s gay.” People have to know each other. People have to know us. I do not look… I may look occasionally goofy and am prone to hats. But no one can look at us and know that we’re atheists. They may think things. Like the woman at the party, ‘I hope you’re not one of the God haters,” one time, she was nice. She even liked me, a little.

I was hopeful. Maybe, she realized, “That guy does not believe in God and is a nice guy.” If I can create the cognitive dissonance in people, then this can be a good thing. The idea of being a good human being and being religious is from whole cloth. It is from nothing. It has no meaning.

Jacobsen: What are some community activities done in New York for secular humanists?

Engel: We have a bunch of things. There a bunch of different groups. There are the New York Atheists, Gotham Atheists, New York City Brights. A number of groups, we all do different things. For us, we have a number of monthly activities, where we have a Brunch and Conversation where we meet in a restaurant and meet for brunch.

Someone brings up the topic. We discuss it from a secular viewpoint. Also, once a month, we do Great Lectures on DVD. We have DVDs and lectures about Humanism that people come and see. Once a year, we do our Day of Reason brunch with a speaker. People come and have brunch, and listen to the speaker.

This is in response to the Washington Day of Prayer. We have the Freethought Day brunch. We have our Darwin Day Dinner in February. Again, it is with a speaker. We have a fiction book club. We have a non-fiction book club. We are always looking for things. One of the things that I am working on is one of the new initiatives as outreach to college students and general outreach to the community.

So, that’s the bulk of it. That’s most of what we do. We are always looking to start something new. Also, we partner with other people. Reasonable New York is an umbrella group of secular organizations. With Reasonable New York, we have Drinking Reasonably once at a bar. Come to a bar, sit, have a drink, and with, hopefully, reasonable people.

As part of the Secular New York Coalition, we have events on our Summer Solstice celebration and our Winter Solstice celebration. So, that’s most of what we do.

Jacobsen: What did the passing of Paul Kurtz do to the secular New York community?

Engel: I didn’t know him personally. You always worry. I don’t want to call this a movement too much. There is a fear – as the movement gets associated with one person – that the passing of the person can affect the movement. It is already hard enough to organize atheists. As they say, “It is like herding cats.”

Like they say, someone will have to enter into the breach and take up the banner. Of course, I am not saying the death is good. It is bad. But things decentralized. With the media, they go to the central people. In some ways, it was like, “What happens now?” We have carried on, basically.

Jacobsen: Is it similar when people who are known for another profession, like writing but identify as a humanist or an atheist (either or both), e.g., an Isaac Asimov, dies?

Engel: Yes, you do not want things to die out with the one person. Kurt Vonnegut wrote a book of essays called A Man Without a Country before he died. He noted Isaac Asimov became the honorary president of the American Humanist Association. When he died, Kurt Vonnegut became honorary president.

When they had a memorial for Isaac, the first speaker was Kurt Vonnegut. Kurt Vonnegut walks up tom the podium, looks around, and says, “Isaac’s in heaven now.” In the book, he said that it was the funniest joke he’d ever told. He had the humanists rolling on the floor.

Also, you have to understand. This is not the type of thing that should be top-down. Individual people have their own foibles. We do not want to make the same mistake that other people do when they put so much or invest so much in one person. It turns out the individual may have had faults, etc. It doesn’t diminish the beliefs and the movement. Because I have seen that.

I was at a meeting, recently, of secular groups representing the Secular Humanist Society. Someone brought up Richard Dawkins, “Did you hear about disparaging remarks about women?” It is not something that I had heard before. But listen, for humanists, you don’t want to make Richard Dawkins a god. He is not.

He is a human being. Everyone is a human being. I read The God Delusion and The Greatest Show on Earth and several other of his books. I think he is very bright and very smart. But he is a human being like everyone else. Whether someone’s passing away or fall from grace, you don’t want to place too much of the movement’s emphasis on any individual people because people are fallible, change their minds, pass away, and the ideas are more important than individual people.

Although, to have people in the public eye who are open about being an atheist, it is a very positive thing. It brings that knowledge, “I know him. Ricky Gervais is from the English version of The Office. He is such a funny guy. Oh, he is an atheist.” I think that is a good thing.

But we don’t want to put too much of what we’re doing and what the overall purpose is on any individual. That’s just my opinion.

Jacobsen: What about groups or collectives? If we are looking at some of the counter hammer blows to the election of Donald Trump or the Trump Administration with President Trump or Vice-President Mike Pence, we see the counter hammer blow and activism of women, especially in response to those who will be opposed to attempts at restrictions to reproductive rights.

What is important, in the current moment, for voicing women’s human and reproductive rights?

Engel: Here, it is very important. Aa day after the inauguration, that first major march was for women. Men were involved. Especially on reproductive rights, women are most highly affected by it. But men are too! It is not something that they can just walk away from. But frequently, they try to.

I think it is important that that takes a leadership role. I am pro-choice. I believe in women’s reproductive health rights. It doesn’t quite have the same resonance when I speak on the topic as when a woman talks about it. It speaks to the importance of our organization or what we try to be. That women take leadership roles.

We have the Vice-President of the organization who is a woman, Claire Miller. John Rafferty’s wife passed away last year, Donna Marxer. But she was the Treasurer of the organization. It is important. When we have the Sunday brunch, the person who leads the conversation is a woman.

She says the subject matter and moderates the conversation. I think that it is important. It is hard to describe. Women atheists, somehow, seem less threatening to people. They shouldn’t [Laughing]. But somehow, people think they are. Somehow, you wouldn’t want to stop them from believing.

Do I want people to stop believing in God? Yes, I admit that. However, I am a strong believer in the Constitution. I do not think you can coerce people. You can persuade people. First, it is unethical to coerce people to give up religion. People get the idea. If a woman’s face is on it, then it is less threatening.

Maybe, it is a stereotype of mine. But I think it’s true, where it is less threatening with a woman’s face on it. We are in the 21st century. Whatever good is done by religion can be done without it, let’s put it that way, if you want to be a kind person and help people, and if you’re charitable, and if you want to be neighbourly, you may say, “My religion teaches me to do that.”

I feel that myself. Yet, it has nothing to do with religion. I believe in the First Amendment. I believe people have the right to practice their religion, but not to impose the religion on me.

Jacobsen: Any recommended books or speakers?

Engel: Ooh! Books, books… Susan Jacoby, do you know Susan Jacoby?

Jacobsen: Certainly.

Engel: She spoke at one of our Darwin Dinners a few years ago. I was a history major in college. I still love reading history. Her books on the history of secularism. I find them really, really interesting. Let’s see, who else’s books do I find interesting? I mentioned Richard Dawkins. The God Delusion was very good.

We have the Vice President, David Orenstein, who is a professor at Medgar Evers College in Brooklyn here. He gave the Darwin Day lecture on evolution. It was really interesting. Speakers, speakers, speakers, I am not sure. It is interesting. I have a brother who is a scientist.

I was never interested in science. Now, I am older. I have an interest in science. As long as it is written for a layman, I have an interest in it. So, I like Susan Jacoby’s and Richard Dawkins’s books. There is probably more flitting around the back of my head. Oh! Another name is Rob Boston.

He is the Director of Communications for Americans United for Separation of Church and State. I am a member. I have written a couple of essays for Church and State. I like the stuff that he has written on the separation of church and state, which is part of my heritage, “Dad, I am doing it.”

[Looks up]

I don’t know why I am looking up because he’s not there.

Jacobsen: Any final feelings or thoughts in conclusion based on the conversation today?

Engel: I’ll tell you. I am glad to meet you. Sometimes, it is easy to feel alone, insulated, etc. It is good to know there are other people in other places. One of the things that we do at the Secular Humanist Society of New York, which I probably forgot to mention. We have people active at the United Nations in the Committee for Religious Freedom.

They want to go out there and remind people that the freedom to religion is also freedom from religion, e.g., to be an atheist and to not practice. We have some communications going on with people around the world. Our news magazine, Pique, is sent to people in Europe and various places around the world. I do not know if John informed you.

It is good to know others are around with similar beliefs. It is good to feel not alone in a particular belief. I am happy to have spoken with you.

Jacobsen: Thank you very much for the opportunity and your time.

Engel: It’s my pleasure. Anytime, people who know me. They know that I can really yack. It is like, “How do you want it to be?” I say, “How long can I make it? Because I can stand up here forever.”

Jacobsen: It is almost like a stereotype.

Engel: You get paid by the word when you’re a lawyer [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Engel: I do not practice too much. New Yorkers can talk. We talk like this. I know that I have a fairly thick New York City accent.

Jacobsen: I am told that I have an admixture of an American and a Canadian accent.

Engel: Although, I am so embarrassed by who is President of this country. I was in England not that long ago, even in Canada. People ask, “Are you American?” I say, “I do. I live on a small island off the mainland.”

And I do. It is called Manhattan. People who live here do not really consider ourselves American. People live on the mainland really do not consider us Americans. So, we have an interesting relationship with America.

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Interview with Rick Gold – Organizer, Gainesville Humanistic Judaism Community (Gainesville, Florida) & Board Member, Society for Humanistic Judaism

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2019/12/18

Rick Gold is the Organizer for the Gainesville Humanistic Judaism Community (Gainesville, Florida) & a Board Member for the Society for Humanistic Judaism.

Here we talk about his background, work, and a community of humanistic Judaism.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Mr. Gold, when it comes to early life, what were some pivotal experiences for you?

Rick Gold: I grew up in a Jewish family. My mother was religious in a Congregation growing up. She was an atheist. She did not believe. My brother and I, who were about the same age, felt that if you were going to a religious school there, and if you weren’t an atheist by 8-years-old, then something was wrong.

Not that we liked being nonbelievers, it wasn’t important. Over the years, going to religious services never did anything for me, I went into the foreign service and travelled around the world and linked up with Jews wherever I lived, particularly in Morocco and Egypt. I would speak to the rabbis and tell them, “Prayer does not do anything for me.”

So, rabbis couldn’t answer that question very well. I was very interested in my Jewish heritage as a means of social justice. I helped organize a U.S. network of organizations that were using a Jewish heritage for progressive political action. That was in 1980. The group was called New Jewish Agenda.

I was organizing the Washington, D.C. chapter at the time. When I would go to demonstrations, I would see representatives of Machar, the Washington Congregation for Secular Humanistic Jewish. It was just starting around that time. It struck my interest. Subsequently, I went overseas on and off for 19 years.

When I came back to Washington with my kids, who I wanted to bring them up in a relatively secular Jewish environment, I found Machar, one of the two humanist Jewish congregations in Washington, D.C. I really enjoyed them. I felt that they represented my values and principles. It was a match.

I was active in Machar from 1999 until 2014. I ended up being on the Machar board and then the President. I have been on the board for the Society for Humanistic Judaism for 8 or 9 years or so. I left Washington  for Gainesville, Florida about 5 years ago. It took a while. But I began to organize a humanistic Judaism community in Gainesville.

Jacobsen: What activities are done in the Humanistic Judaism Community of Gainesville, Florida?

Gold: We are 2 years old. I started by giving a presentation at the Humanist Society of Gainesville. About 40 people have attended our meetings. Normally, 10 to 15 people show up at a meeting. The first year was going over the basic principles of humanistic Judaism. We would have meetings to discuss that.

Then we would celebrate some holidays like Hanukkah and Passover. But I would deal with issues that I think were interesting, e.g., the role of Jews in anti-racism organizing, particularly within the Communist Party within the U.S. We had a program on secular Jews and secularism in Israel.

It was another interesting thing. Then we had some discussions of Jewish authors like Philip Roth. So, that was the first year. Second year, we celebrated high holidays like Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, from a non-theistic perspective. This year, we have been doing some programs that are focusing on anti-Semitism, separation of church and state, non-theistic approach to death, dying, and bereavement.

We celebrate other holidays. This Friday, I am leading the first humanistic Shabbat at the University of Florida Hillel. We are getting ready to participate in the Gainesville Pride Parade for the second time. There are a lot of things. We are happy with how far it has come. It is hard to maintain attendance. Maybe 70 or 80 people are on our Meetup group.

Maybe, 80 are interested in us through Facebook.

Jacobsen: What are the demographics?

Gold: This is Florida. There are a lot of retirees. I am in a city, which is a university town. We have the University of Florida, which is a large and prestigious university in Florida. I cannot remember. Let’s say, there are about 50,000 students there. Then, there are retirees. People who work here, who are associated with the university.

Its health services are very big. That’s what we have to draw from here. The Jewish community is small. There are 6,000 Jewish students on campus. There are a number of humanist groups around here, e.g., the Unitarian Universalists, the Sunday Assembly. I am a member of the Humanist Society of Gainesville.

I have attended humanist groups based at the University of Florida, e.g., Gator Freethought, Humanists on Campus, and Secular Student Alliance.

Jacobsen: If you take into account some of the important parts of the community, including discussions on political topics, what have been some of the events? What has been important to the community? What have been rising or diminishing concerns?

Gold: We haven’t done that much outside of the meetings. Like I said, we try to march in the Pride Parade for the second year. We postponed our meeting on the separation of church and state a day or two after the Tree of Life Synagogue was shot up. Instead, we used that meeting to share our concerns and to comfort each other.

When we first started, there was a planned visit of a neo-Nazi, Richard Spencer to Gainesville. He came and the Jewish community was saying, “Stay home, don’t go out.” A lot of people associated with my group did protest his visit. There were like 500 police protecting supporters who came with him.

It reflects where we are coming from here. Gainesville is a very progressive political city in a very racist, conservative geographic area. So, the city, itself, is very welcoming to immigrants. That’s an interest in my group. We’re not aiming to be a partisan political group. However, clearly, everyone is on the Left.

One time, we had a meeting, where someone came and said, “I am a Trump supporter.” The rest of the people in the meeting got up and left. I could not facilitate and get people to talk.

Jacobsen: The concerns are overlapping. One is strongman-ism around the world. Another is white nationalism. Then, of course, there is standard religious fundamentalism on the rise, too. What are the central concerns around a group of peoples who have been, historically, discriminated against, like the Jewish peoples?

Gold: Yes, it is not obvious to everyone. We try to focus on Jewish history. So, everyone understands the overall environment is much different from that of our parents and grandparents in the opportunities for Jews to do what they want in society. The attack in Pittsburgh was a wake-up call.

Like I said, we are politically active and recognize that coming from a secular perspective is important to show that you are willing to act for a better society. You don’t need God to do that. There are a lot of people in Jewish history who give us an example of making a better world.

Jews coming out of a Jewish tradition, but not, necessarily, a perspective in which the Bible is a divine document.

Jacobsen:  How does the community view the Bible in more benign moments of commentary and in more highly negative forms of commentary?

Gold: We have atheists. We have people more comfortable in being part of a regular congregation. I cannot stomach saying words that I do not believe in, where I ‘believe’ in a God who is a king and a decision-maker. So, I try to not push too hard from an atheist perspective.

However, people feel comfortable in our community. We are a group that brings together atheists, agnostics, secular humanists; and those who question the Jewish establishment. You can fall anywhere among those. You’re welcome. So far, nobody has felt that this isn’t really a place for them.

Jacobsen: Outside of the players of extremism against the Jewish community, the humanistic Jewish community, who are lesser acknowledged problem groups and actors in society now, in Florida now?

Gold: Gainesville has the notoriety of being a place where a Christian pastor said that he would publicly burn the Quran. That created a tremendous backlash. The faith communities organized against it. I took part in candlelight marches dealing with immigration. There are faith communities on the left.

So, they don’t see eye-to-eye with the faith communities on the right or the far-right. There are a lot of churches and religious groups in Gainesville. There are some small groups of different religions. But I am impressed that the community is big enough to have a Sunday Assembly.

In terms of objectionable groups, there are quite conservative political organizers in and around the Gainesville area. As I said, in general, it is very liberal. The city council is very liberal. The county surrounding is very liberal. In general, it feels like a comfortable place for Humanistic Jews to live.

Jacobsen: In my opinion, Trump-ism and strongman-ism won’t last forever, but the citizens will be impacted directly through involvement or indirectly. How could the community in Gainesville or in the country move past this rather pitiable moment in American history?

Gold: I am a specialist in Democracy and Governance, particularly in terms of the analysis of US democracy assistance overseas. I look at this from a higher-level perspective than who will win the next presidency. I do think the U.S. political systems are quite stable, but they only work when there is goodwill.

Right now, there is no goodwill to provide greater support for the democratic institutions that we have here. But I think that you’re right. Trump-ism will pass. Unfortunately, we have done so much damage to so many different aspects of U.S. government policy and weakened the legislative and judiciary and the media.

It is going to have an impact for decades, unfortunately, in some areas. But I am hopeful that the Republicans will get rid of him and try to develop their own identity rather than accepting whatever he does. Personally, I am left-liberal. I am not a  super supporter of the Democratic Party. But most of the time, I feel comfortable with the way they are going.

Jacobsen: When you’re looking at younger generations, there is the question of passing the baton. There is always the question of growing, peaking, declining, and dying.

How do you do this in Gainesville to a next generation living in a different milieu, especially living in a world of new technology, cosmopolitanism, and the Internet?

Gold: It is more general than that. Apparently, almost any Jewish organization in Gainesville has an extremely difficult time attracting students. Like I said, most of the students are secular, frankly. But they don’t want to go off-campus. There are two major organizations on campus. One is Hillel. One is Chabad. Hillel is Reform-ish. Chabad is Orthodox. But Chabad has better food and more alcohol, so students prefer to go there.

I have been trying to build relationships with Hillel. This Friday, I am leading a service on humanistic Shabbat service there. I am hopeful that there will be some students who are attracted to it. We had two students come to our meetings over the last two years. So, that says something.

I have advertised in student newspapers, in many different ways. Normally, I advertise on MeetUp and Facebook and through the Jewish Council e-newsletter. Also, I have advertised on newspaper websites or event websites. There is an article in Gainesville’s progressive newspaper. I made some announcements on the web site of Humanists on Campus.

I have had difficulty in advertising to the Jewish groups on campus. In terms of media, I do not think media is the problem. It is not the culture of students to go off-campus. I am hoping to use Hillel and build a nucleus from there.

Jacobsen: Any recommended speakers, writers, or other organizations?

Gold: We have an Israeli professor who gave a lecture on Yiddish. We have a law professor who is an ordained rabbi. He gave a lecture comparing the liturgy of Humanistic Judaism with traditional Judaism.

That is the beginning of my effort to reach out to speakers. I’ve generally been leading it myself. I’m hopeful that there’ll be some people step up and become leaders with me. At this point, I have not seen it, yet.

Jacobsen: Any final feelings or thoughts in conclusion based on the conversation today?

Gold: I am not sure who your audience is, but I think that what I’ve been able to show you is that it is possible to organize a community, a non-theistic community that is based on Jewish culture, ethics, and heritage. That attracts some people.

It is a long, hard struggle. I think that people shouldn’t shy away from doing it. I have some skills that allow me to cover a lot of different subjects. I am a little versatile. I have been helping nurture another group in St. Petersburg, which is about 2.5 hours away.

We’re learning from each other. One group in Tampa/St. Petersburg could not sustain their efforts and stopped meeting. Then another group started up again. Even then, they are having their issues. But they see the worth in doing it. I am happy about that.

Jacobsen: Thank you very much for the opportunity and your time, Rick.

Gold: Wonderful to talk to you, Scott.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Interview with Gary McLelland – Chief Executive, Humanists International

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2019/12/17

Gary McLelland has been the Chief Executive of Humanists International, formerly the International Humanist and Ethical Union, since February 2017. He has worked for the Humanist Society of Scotland as the Head of Communications and Public Affairs, the Board of the European Humanist Federation, and the Board of the Scottish Joint Committee on Religious and Moral Education. Also, after meeting in Iceland in person in May/June of this year, he is one of the funniest Scottish storytellers known to me, personally.

Here we talk about his background, and some updated work of Humanists International.

*Interview conducted in June, 2019.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: We have been in the midst of a brand change from the “International Humanist and Ethical Union” into “Humanists International.” You are the Chief Executive of Humanists International. What was the reasoning behind the rebranding of the international umbrella organization?

Gary McLelland: The reasoning behind the rebranding behind Humanists International, or what was then called the International Humanist and Ethical Union. Primarily, it is a long, a long and unwieldy, name. The name was a product of a committee decision in 1952. Most people will recognize, certainly, for the modern age; it is a long and complicated name. The consequence of having such a long and complicated name. It has been invariably shortened and abbreviated to IHEU. 

It is a noise that does not come readily to many people. The abbreviation sounds different in many different languages. Also, when it is shortened to IHEU, it creates a barrier to humanism. I remember first becoming involved in the international humanist scene many years ago. It took some explaining as to what IHEU was and how it differed from IHEYO, which is the International Humanist and Ethical Youth Organisation. It produced a barrier to what we do.

It also represents a missed opportunity to say the word “humanist” or “Humanism.” That is one of the reasons behind the change. Another reason, I think there is a new energy on professionalization, improving, and expanding the work of the organization in the past few years. I think it is really a strategy that we should change on the way up and not on the way down. We thought this was a good opportunity for the organization to re-focus itself, to take another opportunity to restrategize, and to figure out what it is that we are for and what we want to do.

Part of that, of course, was strategic in terms of thinking about what is Humanists International for and what do we want to do. It is represented in the new language of the brand. In that, Humanists International is part of a diverse, global humanist movement. It is important as the heart of the movement. In part, Humanists International is a leader of the movement. We try to lead on campaigns and policy areas. But we are also the network and the umbrella between the movement.

So, we are a democratic forum. The opportunity to debate and discuss policies and ideas to decide on the future of our coordinated humanist movement. It is quite a lot of things to be doing. So, we think that this new brand, Humanists International. Obviously, part of this is the new visual identity with the new lovely colour, which we have named “International Raspberry” along with the logo and styling. Hopefully, it will hold us in good stead for these tasks that we have ahead of us.

That is the main reason for wanting to think about a rebrand at this stage.

Jacobsen: Did the rebranding come with role tasks and responsibility changes for you? If so, what? If not, why not?

McLelland: So, yes, one of the main jobs for me, on the rebrand, is like most of my role in the organization. I am a facilitator. I facilitated the consultation happening a year before my appointment. I continued the facilitation with all of our members, individual supporters around the world, likeminded organizations, and organizations that share goals and aims, with our staff and board, and some others, including experts in PR (PR firms) and design (design agencies). 

It is taking all the information and boiling this down to something to implement. This process began way back in 2016 in the General Assembly in Malta. There was a discussion held about our name and whether or not people, our members, thought that it was appropriate and helpful, or whether they wanted to change it. Very clearly, from the members back then, they wanted to change it. Another more detailed period of the consultation came at the beginning of 2017.

We asked, ‘What are the words, feelings, and ideas that you think are related to the work that we do? What are the scope and purpose our work? This, again, was all synthesized down. We used various tools to analyze what the feedback was. This was around about the time that I was appointed in February 2017. One of the very useful tools was the Word Cloud. We fed back all the data from several hundred responses and tried to highlight what the most commonly used words and phrases were, handily enough, that emerged from the data were “Humanists” and “International.” 

It became clear that this could be the way forward. The next stage was to consult the General Assembly or our AGM. It is the worldwide forum of the humanist movement about these stages. We put forward a motion in 2017 to say, “Okay, this is the result of the consultation. That we change our name to Humanists International.” That was approved by the General Assembly in 2017. One thing I did say to the General Assembly in 2017 [Laughing]. In retrospect, I am very glad I did. I said, “We don’t want to be bound to a specific timeline.” Many people know that we have only 5 members of staff at Humanists International, which is very few people to try and run an organization with a global scope and reach.

I knew that it was going to take us some time to implement these changes to the high standard that I expect and I know that our members expect of the organization. At the end of 2017, and the beginning of 2018, it was really the time to recruit an external consultant to manage the redesign and rebrand. We ended up getting two agencies. We got one design agency to lead on the development of the brand. We got one agency to lead on the development of the website, written materials, and so on. 

This was in 2018, in May. We got a sign-off from the Board about the new brand. We had a presentation on what the new brand could be. On May, 2018, we settled on the “International Raspberry” colour and design. Then from May to the end of 2018, the next big job was to redesign the website This was a much bigger job than most people realize. Although, we don’t have a members database or a members forum on our site. We have a lot of information. 

There is a lot of content on the history of the organization. One thing that I was keen to see is that we upload and make available a searchable database with all of our policies. I would recommend anyone interested in the organization to look at the policy database. This shows you all of the statements, positions, and campaigns that we have taken on since 1952. I think anyone who is involved in the movement will feel incredibly proud of themselves if they read the ideas and campaigns that we are challenging, which is long before it became popular by other communities and organizations.

It is something that I am really proud of. All of this hard work, which was mainly led on by Bob Churchill, the Director of Communications and Campaigns, culminated in the launch of our new brand in February, 2019. This went incredibly well. I think partly because we had a very long lead time. We tried to make sure that our members were consulted on in quite a lot of detail, so we had a seamless change. Before the launch, a week before, we had a soft launch. We had a video on Facebook, which was a preview of the new brand to come.

This was an idea that we borrowed from Humanists Guatemala. We have a ‘glitcher.’ We have a video showing the old brand fading out with the hint of the new brand coming in behind it. This was to soften people up to the idea that we were changing brands. Of course, changing an organization with such a long history, of Humanists International, it has been a brand held in very high esteem. We are an organization that speaks about human rights abuses at the United Nations.

We are consulted by governments and their policies. We are asked to speak at expert panels. So, this is something that we had to do with a certain amount of dignity and care to make sure that we didn’t lose that respect and dignity that the organization has. So, that was my role, basically. It was to try and oversee, and to act as the web, to connect all of the different groups and audiences together, which is to bring them on board with these changes. I think, although, people will agree the rebrands went very well.

I am very grateful to our staff and Board for the work that went on behind the scenes.

Jacobsen: What were the important changes as the organization transitioned into Humanists International?

McLelland: As I said, one of the important changes was to make sure that we respected the dignity and status of the organization. The rebrand was to have this fit for the 21st century, which was engaging, catchy and could inspire people. But also, we wanted to remain faithful and respectful to the past of the organization, and the dignity, and the history of it. That was, certainly, something that needed preparation. Of course, there are many technical, legal details needing to get right. We are an unusual legal setup.

I am speaking to you from London, where the organization’s administration is based. Most of our staff are based here. But we are an American organization incorporated in New York State as a not-for-profit or a 501©3. We are a foreign company. Although, we, legally, operate in the United Kingdom. We are not formally registered there. Of course, the organization was born in the Netherlands. So, we had tom do technical and legal changes to make this possible, as well as updating different contact records, and so on.

Also, there was a massive amount of IT challenges, as there are. Once again, Bob Churchill took charge of it. It required the creation of an entirely new emailing system, cloud system, and all different IT functions. We decided to go with a fairly, potentially, controversial domain name, which is Humanists.International with “.International” in place of “.com” or “.co.uk”. It will take people time to get used to it. However, we wanted to be the vanguard of this. There were a lot of things behind the scenes to get the organization ready for that, include getting Member Organizations on board with it.

One thing, I wanted to make sure the American Ethical Union was happy with these changes. Many people think that the use of the term “Ethical” in our previous name was a reference to “general ethics,” or that we wanted to be an ethical organization. While that is partly true, of course, it is truer to say that this refers to a very specific secular movement. It was, to my knowledge, in the United Kingdom and, more recently, in the U.S.A. of the “Ethical Culture” movement. One of the biggest ones remaining is the American Ethical Union.

They, of course, were one of the founding members of the International Humanist and Ethical Union, which was one of the reasons why our name was what it was. I talked to several members of the organization (American Ethical Union) and made the reasoning explicitly clear that they were still valuable members of the movement, but that we needed to shorten the name of it. I am very happy to say that the American Ethical Union accepted the proposals and are very much involved in the organization and the movement.

That was something that we needed to be very much prepared for.

Jacobsen: What were the specific alterations important to the Canadian secular communities?

McLelland: I wouldn’t say there is anything specifically important to the secular communities in Canada. Of course, we have continued to have a good engagement with the members in Canada. We should note Humanist Canada is one of the organizations, which led the way in terms of the naming convention that we see taking hold across humanist organizations across the world. In the last few years, at some point (and I don’t know when), the Humanist Association of Canada changed its name to Humanist Canada.

This has also happened in Guatemala, in Sweden, in the United Kingdom, and in very many other humanist organizations around the world with the name “Humanist” or “Humanists” followed by the name of the country. We noticed Canada did this sometime before us. That was part of the inspiration and reassurance for the changing of the name the way that we did. We still needed to change the name. Specifically, we continue to coordinate with the organizations in Canada with the impressive, important, and the vital leadership role that they have taken with regard to asylum seekers and refugees fleeing persecution for their religion or belief.

Jacobsen: As always, what are the plans for 2019/2020? How can people become involved and donate to Humanists International?

McLelland: The big plans for 2019/2020. Internally, we have a lot of big changes happening in the organization. I have just come back from the General Assembly in Reykjavik, where we made changes to the internal membership rules, democratic participation rules, and the fee structure rules. This is to simplify and make more fair and transparent for the Member Organizations (national humanist organizations) and Associates. For Members, they will have a 1% membership fee. For Associates, they will have a 0.5% membership fee.

This has really been brought in to make it much simpler for people to understand what it means to be a Member of Humanists International in terms of membership financial contribution. Also, we want to make it easier for MOs to participate in the democratic process. Before, in the past rules, it only allowed for a small selection of full members to vote. This was overwhelmingly wealthy, European large members. The changes that we have now brought int will mean more members from the Global South can attend the General Assembly and vote on the future of the organization.

With these new rules that we have brought in, it means that we will have voting members from Latin America. Something that the organization is very proud of, including me. These are some changes happening internally. It will take time to flesh them out – several years – and see the benefits. In terms of the work that we are doing, we continue to expand our growth and development work. Every year, we continue to give out more money than the year before to humanist organizations around the world, including developing countries in the Global South.

This year, for the first time, we are working on European organizations to try and improve and build capacity within the professional network of humanist organizations around Europe. The hope is that this will bring about a virtuous cycle, whereby they can contribute to the international effort by recruiting more members, by stepping up their campaigns and public relations work, and by providing more ceremonies and services to their members. This is a really important thing that we will be doing in the future. Another thing to expect in 2019/2020 is the relaunch of the blasphemy campaign.

This is something that humanists in Canada have been very active and supportive in backing us on the campaign, back in 2015. We’re currently working on a new, exciting strategy to re-energize and relaunch the End Blasphemy Laws campaign. It has become the key campaign for humanists around the world. You can expect a rebranded and relaunched version of the campaign through 2019/2020. Finally, I would say that people can get involved by going to Humanists.International or searching for us on Google.

Go to the website, make a donation, it goes a very long way to help us do the work that we do. Next week, on the 21st of June, it will be World Humanist Day. We will be launching the annual fundraising campaign called the Humanists At Risk campaign. This goes a long way to highlight and help individuals at risk, help those people who are persecuted because of their religion or belief and, hopefully, look forward to a time when we have to reduce the number of people that we need to help in this way.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Gary.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Interview with Simon Nielsen Ørregaard – Chairman, The Atheistic Society of Denmark

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2019/12/15

Simon Nielsen Ørregaard is the Chairman of the Atheist Society. Here we talk about his background, work, views, and more.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Naturally, let’s start on the foundation of family for yourself. What is family geography, culture, language, and religion or lack thereof?

Simon Nielsen Ørregaard:
Well, my family is rather small, and everyone has a background in Jehovah’s Witnesses (JW). We come from various parts of Denmark and my sister lives in the Faroe Islands. Most of my family comes from the Northern part of Denmark, called Jutland. On my father’s side, they were fishermen. In that social environment, religion played an important role because fishing was a dangerous business. The men took a risk when sailing out, and sometimes they didn’t make it home again. So that’s where JW historically found a ground in Denmark along with other religious movements in the late 19th century.

In 2013 I was divorced after 18 years of marriage. I have a daughter aged 20 and a son aged 18. In 2015 I went on national radio and talked about my life in JW. Shortly after I was excommunicated. Apart from my son who lives with me, I haven’t had any contact with my family and friends since.

Jacobsen: How were these factors important to create the basis of a personal worldview?

Ørregaard: My family and everybody we knew were totally integrated in the organization of JW. That means living by very strict religious rules. It means daily study. Three meetings per week in the “Kingdom hall”. And off course going out in the service, preaching on the street, and from door to door. It is a full-blown indoctrinating fundamentalism. I was living under surveillance 24/7. Partly by my parents and friends, but most importantly Jehovah (God) who I believed could and would see everything I did and knew every single thought in my mind.

Jacobsen: When did atheism become the correct philosophical stance for you? What other positions – social, political, philosophical, etc. – may follow necessarily from this worldview because of the entanglement of theistic assumptions or assertions, rather, with various social, political, philosophical, and other realities?

Ørregaard: Shortly after my daughter was born in 1999, I realized I was an atheist, but it took me years to acknowledge. Up until then my life had basically been an existential crisis because I always doubted the teachings outlined by the Watchtower Organization in New York. While conforming to the life of JW, I decided by pure emotion that God HAD to exist and that there HAD to be a higher meaning in life.

However, after years of struggling, I had to look myself in the eye. And I reckoned that I was an atheist since I had no faith in any kind of god or religion. And of course that meant – what I had known all along – that my previous world view was totally wrong and had to be reconstructed from the bottom. First, it meant I had to face the reality of death. That itself was anxiety-provoking, because in JW I believed that I would live eternally after Armageddon which would take place in my lifetime.

Secondly, I had to face the social control of (JW) which meant even more anxiety and seclusion. Then I had to consider all the moral aspects of existence. I had to reset my whole life in my mid-40’s mentally, existentially, socially, economically.

My escape was music and a tendency to reading books. Curiosity is the key. I spent countless hours at night on YouTube with my new “friends” Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, Krauss etc. I felt that my past experience and knowledge from JW committed me to become an activist against the destructive sides of religion.

Jacobsen: As the Chairman of the Atheist Society, what tasks and responsibilities come with the position?

Ørregaard: I am the main public face of our organization. Our purpose is political in order to fight for a secular society. And then surely with that follows a lot of critique of religion. So there is a fairly big portion of public debate and visits to schools and various organizations.

Another important thing is to consolidate the organization to be ready for future tasks. I.e. there is a democratic festival in Denmark each summer in which we participate. We try to set up a merchandise website. We lobby with as many politicians as possible. We do events called “Godless Thursday” with guests from all sides of different fields, scientists, politicians, artists, priests etc. There are so many ideas, and a very long to-do list.

Jacobsen: What are the demographics of the Atheist Society? Why?

Ørregaard: In the years I have been involved we count about 800 members. And then lots of followers and supporters. This year we also founded a youth organization named – surprise – “Godless Youth”. It is great fun and it really raised some eyebrows here and there. Our members represent the whole country, but we do have a majority of male members. We try to figure out why, and to meet that challenge. Good ideas from abroad to bring more women to the cause are welcome.

Jacobsen: What have been the main activities and provisions for community of the Atheist Society?

Ørregaard: The most time-consuming things are the events and writings in the public debate. The biggest matter we pursue is the separation of church and state. But to be realistic this is more of a headline since it involves a change in the Danish constitution.

Another big issue is the involvement of the Danish public church in the national public school. The church actually has access to mission in school through a big school-subject called Christian studies and through confirmation class. I mean, in 2019? Surely this is anachronistic and unnecessary unless it fulfills a purpose to someone – like the church.

We also support a prohibition of circumcision which is a very hot political matter in Denmark.

The list is long, but we feel there is a wider understanding about what we try to accomplish.

Jacobsen: Have there been any social and political activist activities of the Atheist Society? If so, what, and why? If not, why not?

Ørregaard:
We meet up at any relevant demonstration (if we are not there it’s only because we are only so few). It could be the Gay Pride Parade or a happening in protest of Jehovah’s Witnesses which we did this summer. We also do pop-up events on the streets, talking to people that we meet and promote atheism. We also help those who are interested to resign from the Danish public church, which can be a tricky thing. We do that through our webservice “udmeldelse.dk”. Through the site, it only takes a minute and since 2016 more than 36.000 people have used this opportunity.

Jacobsen: Who are some leading lights of atheism to you – writers or speakers?

Ørregaard: Apart from those already mentioned, I like to read Bertrand Russell, George Orwell, Friedrich Nietzsche. And among the living, I’m inspired by Michael Shermer, Lawrence Krauss, Matt Dillahunty and Aron Ra. There is also a Danish pioneer Georg Brandes (1842-1927). He was the leading force in the Danish modern breakthrough, through some radical lectures in academia.

And not to mention, a lot of standup comedians: Ricky Gervais, Bill Maher, Bill Burr and of course Monty Python. They all play the very important role of the jester telling the awful truth or the little boy in Hans Christian Andersen’s “The Emperor’s New Clothes” who exclaims: “But he hasn’t got anything on!”

Jacobsen: How can people become involved with and donate time/money to the Atheist Society?

Ørregaard: Become a member or donate an amount, or even write us in your will. Some people actually do that. But economics aside, every helpful hand is welcome. Some stand up and speak and write, but every contribution helps us fighting this important cause. We do not have that much money, so if you could give us a lift, help us out with our website or whatever – everything helps, and we are very grateful.

Jacobsen: Any final feelings or thoughts in conclusion?

Ørregaard: First, I want to thank you for this opportunity. I think it is important for us to engage across borders. Thank you very much for that.

Then I want to mention a project that came out as an offspring from the atheistic scene I Denmark. An organization/network called Eftertro (post-faith). It is not an atheistic project per se, but a social project. Here people who suffers from doubt or social control from various religious backgrounds can meet and exchange experiences, and create a new network. It is very helpful for a lot of people, and it would be great to see similar initiatives internationally, so we could work together in order to get political attention to a somewhat overlooked problem.

Lastly I will say this: We all fight a very important and profound cause. In Denmark most people do not believe or practice a religion. However, the public church is still very powerful and that reflects in all political issues regarding basic values and even foreign policy. We see a strong national conservative movement – like in most of Europe – that claims Christianity as the only answer to radical Islam. I think that is dangerous. The frontline is not between different ancient religions. It is between humanistic rational values against religious dogma as an excuse for nationalism. This should be obvious in our day and age, but it’s not. All the more, is it important for us to take a stand. The more the merrier. Let’s join all good forces and do this together!

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Simon.

Ørregaard: Thank you so much from The Atheistic Society of Denmark. Let’s stay in touch.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Mandisa 45 – Conferences

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2019/12/13

Mandisa Thomas, a native of New York City, is the founder and President of Black Nonbelievers, Inc. Although never formally indoctrinated into belief, Mandisa was heavily exposed to Christianity, Black Nationalism, and Islam. As a child she loved reading, and enjoyed various tales of Gods from different cultures, including Greek and Ghanaian. “Through reading these stories and being taught about other cultures at an early age, I quickly noticed that there were similarities and differences between those deities and the God of the Christian Bible. I couldn’t help but wonder what made this God so special that he warrants such prevalence today,” she recalls.

Mandisa has many media appearances to her credit, including CBS Sunday MorningCNN.com, and Playboy, The Humanist, and JET magazines. She has been a guest on podcasts such as The Humanist Hour and Ask an Atheist, as well as the documentaries Contradiction and My Week in Atheism. Mandisa currently serves on the Board for American Atheists and the American Humanist Association, and previously for Foundation Beyond Belief, the 2016 Reason Rally Coalition, and the Secular Coalition for America. She is also an active speaker and has presented at conferences/conventions for the Freedom from Religion Foundation, Secular Student Alliance, and many others.

In 2019, Mandisa was the recipient of the Secular Student Alliance’s Backbone Award and named the Freedom from Religion Foundation’s Freethought Heroine. She was also the Unitarian Universalist Humanist Association’s Person of the Year 2018.

As the president of Black Nonbelievers, Inc., Mandisa encourages more Blacks to come out and stand strong with their nonbelief in the face of such strong religious overtones.

“The more we make our presence known, the better our chances of working together to turn around some of the disparities we face. We are NOT alone.”

Here, we talk about conferences.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: You have attended several conferences. You have spoken at conferences. You have been in hospitality in earlier career work. You can help us learn more on how to do conferences. What have been the big takeaways on conferences that have been done well?

Mandisa Thomas: I have had the good fortune to take part in conferences, both big and small. What I find for most of them is that, for one, there is a lot of hard work involved. These things are not easy to put on.

I think people tend to take for granted what goes on behind the scenes. The time that it takes, and the funds that need to be raised. Organizing these events are really a labour of love, but they cannot survive on love alone. But I DO love them, attending and organizing alike. I also love to observe and learn from other conference organizers, as I tend to get some good ideas for my own events. And there are good opportunities to work with other people. The ability to bring people together – whether it is to have a good time, to be educated and informed, encourage more activism, or all of the above – is a skill set that can be developed and mastered. Though some may just have the natural knack for doing this kind of work.

It is really, really a good thing to know how to do. And it is often underrated by many. 

Jacobsen: What about a context of individuals who you want to put on speakers list as well as the individual, or two individuals, sometimes, who you want to raise as the keynote, the distinguished speaker, of a conference, especially at community freethought events?

Thomas: It is interesting. Many conference organizers look for “big names,” within the community to be keynotes at conferences. There are even a few organizations who push for really big name celebrities, if you will, to be their spokespersons. If that is possible and works for the event, then that’s great. Now, there are other events who look for people who have done some noteworthy activism, which is important. What I tend to look for in a keynote are people who, for example, at the Women of Color Beyond Conference, are people like Sadia Hameed. She is the spokesperson for the Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain, and represents women of colour who are ex-Muslim.

As we know, it is very, important work and can be very dangerous too. Also, when looking at speakers, I look for folks who have worked their way up, and may not have as much popularity. I can appreciate that I have now become popular as a speaker, because this has certainly been my experience.

I think that it is important to bring in new speakers/presenters, and highlight people who the mainstream community may not be aware of.

And a lot of those tend to be people of colour. It is important to bring them to the forefront so that hopefully, they will become keynote speakers. We cannot have an effective voice if it is singular.

It helps me, and the organization and our events. So that’s what I try to have in my criteria for keynotes and speakers.

Jacobsen: As you were in the hospitality industry, what are things all secular communities should keep in mind when it comes to the clientele or the customers and the big takeaway?

Mandisa: It is important to make sure the atmosphere remains festive and respectful, and that everyone on attendance feels like they belong in the space. This is where codes of conduct come in.

It also means considering speakers who are vibrant and give great information. And that they know how to talk to people. That they will not just recite their speech, and then leave. It is making sure there are people who are good at engagement and discussion.

It is good to have people who live those values every day. Because then, people will want to come back and continue to support. An important piece here is saying, “Thank you”. Thank your members, attendees, sponsors – ALL supporters.  You don’t want people to think that you are just taking their money and support for granted. Applying that customer service aspect to our community is important. And no matter how challenging it becomes at times, maintaining it will be the key to continue to growth and support.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Mandisa.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Updates on the British Columbia Humanist Association Closing Off 2019

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2019/12/12

Ian Bushfield, M.Sc., is the Executive Director of the British Columbia Humanist Association (BCHA). Here we discuss exciting updates for the BCHA in 2019 following in the line of some of the other update-interviews with the BCHA Executive Director.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: It has been some number of months since the last major update on the activities of the British Columbia Humanist Association. What have been some of the major community activities developments in terms of the Sunday meetings and book club?

Ian Bushfield: The BCHA supports Humanists across British Columbia with members from Saanich to Fort St John and many communities in between. We’re proud to work with local groups like the Victoria Secular Humanist Association, the Comox Valley Humanists, the Sunshine Coast Secular Humanist Association, Langley-Maple Ridge Humanists and Kelowna Atheists, Skeptics & Humanists Association. Here in Metro Vancouver (where I work from), some of our events – like the Sunday meetings and book club you mentioned – have been operated variously by our board, volunteers or staff in the past. As our organization continues to grow – we’re now over 320 paid members and about 3000 in our email database – our board is getting out of the direct operations of events and we’ll be transitioning those meetings to local volunteers to manage them going forward.

Beyond that, we’re excited to continue building up new ways for individuals to be a part of the Humanist tent that perhaps didn’t always feel as welcome in freethought groups. Our Queer Humanist Alliance will continue to meet and build its presence in the new year and we’re eager to try other initiatives to build the nonreligious community.

Jacobsen: There have been political and research reports updates too. What has been done by the BCHA, in coordination with others, on the secularism front?

Bushfield: We were really lucky to receive significant funding from Canada Summer Jobs this year to hire three summer interns, two of whom worked on our campaigns. A big chunk of that work, as we’ll discuss, was around prayers in the BC Legislature but they were also able to dive into prayers at municipal councils, religious property tax exemptions and catalogue the various laws that exempt religion.

Another aspect, that we worked on with our allies at Centre for Inquiry Canada was to look at how much it costs Canadians to recognize “advancement of religion” as a charitable purpose. That report, the first of a series CFIC is working on with us, estimated that subsidy could be as high as $2.6 billion.

Jacobsen: What happened in the political arena around the BC Legislature and prayers in 2019?

Bushfield: I don’t want it to come off as too pompous but I think there’s a good case to be made that our House of Prayers report was unprecedented in how it looked at religious privilege in Canada. It represents the culmination of about 60 people’s work over several months, looking at over 15 years worth of data to make the case for ending prayers in the legislature. I really encourage everyone to check it out as we know it’s being looked at across the country.

Prior to this report, the practice in the BC Legislature was for a different MLA each morning to get up and begin the day’s proceedings with a “prayer” selected from one of five standard prayers provided by legislature staff or to deliver one of their own. Unsurprisingly, we found the prayers included a grossly disproportionate number of religious prayers compared to the increasing secular nature of the province (or as we argued, there should be no prayers since our governments have a duty of religious neutrality).

That effort, coupled with the nearly 600 emails supporters sent to their MLAs this fall, led the Legislature to amend its standing orders to rename the section from “prayers” to “prayers and reflections.”

While we still balk at the inclusion of “prayers” in a formal aspect of our government, this is a big step toward a more secular BC and one that recognizes that not all British Columbians – and not all MLAs – are religious. Looking ahead, I’m really eager to see if this change encourages nonreligious and non-practicing MLAs to provide secular affirmations in that period.

Jacobsen: What are the expected initiatives for 2020 on the political and social activism front?

Bushfield: We’re going to continue rolling out the results of our research from this past summer, including reports on prayers in municipal councils, the costs of religious property tax exemptions, more data on private schools and how our laws privilege religion in other ways. We’re also going to continue to work with our partners in BC, across Canada and around the world to advance secular and progressive values.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Ian.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Ask Takudzwa 17 – Humanistic Influencers: Organizational Derivatives and Outgrowths

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2019/12/11

Takudzwa Mazwienduna is the informal leader of Zimbabwean Secular Alliance and a member of the Humanist Society of Zimbabwe. This educational series will explore secularism in Zimbabwe from an organizational perspectiveand some more.

Here we talk about the media.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: As McArthur Mkwapatira wrote in “The Rise of Secularism in Zimbabwe,” the atheists in Kenya have been organizing. The humanists in Zimbabwe have begun to continue to organize over time, as well, especially into the, recently, founded Humanist Society of Zimbabwe.

This was an article for the defunct Cornelius Press republished in the flagship publication for Young Humanists International entitled Humanist Voices.

How is not only the influence into the public sphere through radio appearances on Faith on Trial but the commentary on such an general public presence important for the early formal advancement of humanism in Zimbabwe?

Takudzwa Mazwienduna: Breaking into the public sphere has been our biggest breakthrough as a society. Notable efforts by Shingai Rukwata Ndoro, Miriam Tose Majome and Prosper Mtandadzi have made secularism a legitimate force to reckon with.

It has made Humanists feel represented and not alone. I can safely say that being represented in public spheres and gaining recognition has been the best thing that has happened to secularism and humanism in Zimbabwe so far.

Jacobsen: In some of the work of the former, or defunct, Cornelius Press, there was reportage on South African and commentary on the political situation, on women’s rights, and the like.

How can the media be more helpful to the humanist cause in accurate, non-stigmatic news on humanist activities?

Mazwienduna: The media can be helpful to the Humanist cause in that way by making religious diversity a sacred principle when sharing opinions. Publications and broadcasters should also cease promoting uninformed religious narratives that misrepresent the Humanist Society.

Jacobsen: Camp Quest is a program for kids. Have you seen this? Could this be something for the Humanist Society of Zimbabwe to incorporate into its programming?

Mazwienduna: I have come across news on Camp Quest and yes, I believe that it can do a lot more for the Humanist Society of Zimbabwe. The community gets a lot of inspiration from such groundbreaking initiatives.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Takudzwa.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

Interview with Dr. Cleaveland – President, Secular Humanists of the Lowcountry

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2019/12/11

Dr. Bonnie Cleaveland is the President of the Secular Humanists of the Lowcountry. Here we talk about the community there, and some of Dr. Cleaveland’s background.

Scott Jacobsen: So, in terms of some background for the readership, what are some pivotal moments in the development of personal philosophy, and life stance, especially in a secular direction, or a secular humanist direction in particular?

Dr. Bonnie Cleaveland: I grew up non-religious, although with two religious parents. I was interested in religion when I was younger. I remember asking my mom if I could go to church. She took me to church, but afterwards, I said, “That’s enough. I do NOT want to do that again!” [Laughing]. It was pretty boring for a kid.

I grew up in the Southern United States, so many of my friends are religious. When I was in middle school, forty years ago, I wanted to talk to a friend about the abortion debate. She refused to have the discussion, saying, “God said it. I believe it. That settles it!” Later in life, I realized that that is a standard Christian response to many topics.

That probably made me more anti-religious. This way of talking about issues shuts off your brain off entirely. Questioning isn’t encouraged.

I found the Secular Humanists of the Lowcountry about five years ago. I was excited to find a group of people who were similar, even in this small Bible Belt town of Charleston, South Carolina.

Jacobsen: Are there topics in the secular community that harbour a certain unquestionability, akin to the aforementioned?

Cleaveland: The only thing I am worried about is that we do tend to be uniformly progressive. At least here in Charleston, it is assumed: if you are secular, then you are progressive, but it’s not true for everyone. We have libertarians and conservative members. I worry, sometimes, that they may not feel as welcome, which is unfortunate.

Jacobsen: What could increase the level of inclusion of those voices?

Cleaveland: That is a great question. By being aware, not everybody has the same progressive beliefs. It is interesting because it has a parallel to religion in the South where everyone is assumed to be a Christian. One of the first questions is this, “Where do you go to church?’ It is part of the water in which we swim.

You drive down the road and there are churches everywhere. Charleston is known as the “Holy City” because we have so many churches [Laughing]. So, it can be truly hard to be secular in the Holy City. So, I do not want progressivism to be the water that we swim in as secular humanists.

We need to continually acknowledge that there are different political viewpoints. Primarily because right-wing Christians have claimed religions as theirs. But that does not make any sense. There are plenty of religious people on both sides of the spectrum. Just because you are politically conservative does not mean you need to be a believer.

Jacobsen: What are some fun and community activities of the Secular Humanists of the Lowcountry?

Cleaveland: We did all kinds of great things. We have trivia, happy hours, and we go to performances and events together.

We enjoy volunteering together, as well. About quarterly, we bring food and serve it to the underserved in a downtown park for Potluck in the Park. A group of us go quarterly and pick up trash at our assigned section of roadway. We always have a great time. Anything we do as community is fun.

Jacobsen: Who are some prominent members of the community?

Cleaveland: One prominent member is Herb Silverman, our founder, who also founded the Secular Coalition for America. In 1994, Herb started giving some talks around town and talking about secularism. Lots of people said, “I wish there were more secular people I can talk to.” Secular people felt alone. Herb founded Secular Humanists of the Lowcountry.  We joke that Herb is the closest thing we have to a god!

Most of us are regular people, who are not necessarily well-known around town or in the secular community. We do have Amy Monsky who founded Camp 42, a group of summer camps around the South – in South Carolina, Florida, and Mississippi.

Jacobsen: What are some of the social or political activities, or issues, the Secular Humanists for the Low Country have been involved in, in the past? What have been some currently or ongoing that they have involved in, if any?

Cleaveland: There are many. Because we are in the Bible Belt in the US; there are frequent violations of the First Amendment, which guarantees the separation of church and state. So, we see things like classes engaging in prayer or a teacher using or displaying religious materials in the classroom.

We often are standing up for secular families and people of other religions who are not in the majority Christian religion. I have become increasingly concerned with the expansion of Christian Nationalism, since about 2016.

The Religious Right in the US has been organizing for 30-40 years. They are reaching the pinnacle of their power right now, both in national politics and local politics. In South Carolina, an evangelical ministry in the Upstate of South Carolina, near Greenville, gets federal funding for foster care and adoption. Because they get federal funding, they are supposed to help all people who are considering to foster an adoption.

Under our governor, Henry McMaster has gotten a waiver that they can turn away people of non-Evangelical religion. A Catholic woman who wants to foster and adopt was turned away once they found out she is a Catholic. She was simply turned away.

The secular community is working to introduce ourselves to legislators and highlight that we do not want federal funds given to private religious activities. In Charleston County, which is relatively liberal compared to the rest of the state. We have a school board committee who are in charge of sex education. Several members of that committee are designated as religious leaders. So, there are more religious leaders who are given specific seats on that committee than medical people. I have recently been appointed to that committee for a three year-term, so I hope we can make some progress toward evidence-based sex education. Religion should have nothing to do with sex education in public schools.

So, those are some of the most important issues that we fight for, kids’ rights and people’s rights, to not have their federal tax dollars fund religious activities.

Jacobsen: You mentioned “kids’ rights and people’s rights.” In terms of overall context of the social and political activities mentioned, what does this portend for women’s rights in the Bible Belt in America?

Cleaveland: It is clear that Christian Nationalists primarily want to control and oppress women. They are fighting to close abortion clinics, for example. They’re attempting to control women.  They are not focusing on men’s responsibility in pregnancy, for example. Women, and therefore society, is better off when birth control is freely available and comprehensive sex education available to everyone.

The religious right fights efforts to make birth control and other family planning accessible, so they obviously care more about controlling women than about reducing unwanted pregnancy.  It is important for us as secularists to stand up for women’s rights, and probably join with even religious organizations who are moderate and who want a sensible science-based approach to legislation and public policy.

Jacobsen: According to the Guttmacher Institute, although a progressive organization, granted, the work to decriminalize abortion for women reduces the number of abortions and increases the health and wellness of women who do get them.

In addition, it respects bodily autonomy and the independent and free choices of women, if given freely, equitably, and in a safe manner.

In other words, if one has pro-life stated aims, and if one looks at the data, internationally provided by the Guttmacher Institute, and others, in terms of organizations, then a true pro-life person should, in fact, take a pro-choice position.

Does this dialogue emerge in any of the secular dialogues with religious leaders in the low country, or in the popular media in the United States? I mentioned the United States because I live in Canada.

Cleaveland: I only recently learned that the rates of abortion in a country that do and do not allow legal abortion are almost exactly the same. Honestly, I believe that many religious people are so insulated in the information that they consume; that they do not realize many of the facts about abortion.

So for us secular science-based people, one of the things we can do is spread science-based information.  Many people understand that making abortion illegal does not stop abortion, but it makes abortion less safe.

We know from lots of studies that providing sex education and access to birth control tremendously decreases the rates of abortion. It’s easy to think that, if people knew the reality, then people would be more open to the pro-choice point of view.

One of the things we often do as secular humanists is spending time trying to provide data and information, because we do tend to be more based on reason and in science. We are learning that people do not change their minds particularly based on data, but based on emotion. We have to change social norms.

Jacobsen: How can people become involved through the provision of time, effort, finances, professional networks, and so on, to the Secular Humanists of the Lowcountry? How can this recommendation expand in the Bible Belt in general in terms of secular organizational health?

Cleaveland: So, anybody, wherever they are, could Google “Secular,” “Secular Humanist,” “Atheist,” “Agnostic,” or “Freethought” in order to find a local secular group. I am amazed at how many secular organization there are even in small towns. If it is not in their own particular town, there is probably an organization in a town or two over.

People can find us at our website, http://www.lowcountryhumanists.org/, We started a Twitter feed, @CHSHumanists, just over a year ago, and we put out a lot of information, stories, and links to other secular organizations. We are also on Facebook and Meetup.

I do think it is so important to have people with similar values around you. We enjoy donating to local secular charities, volunteering around town, and getting together for social activities.

We have family friendly activities, too, so, we have a separate Facebook group for local families, including secular home-schooling families.

We recently had Andrew Seidel, Constitutional attorney from the Freedom From Religion Foundation, about his new book, The Founding Myth. These great discussions are my favourite part of the Secular Humanists of the Lowcountry.

Jacobsen: Any final thoughts in conclusion based on the conversation today?

Cleaveland: If people have younger kids, then I would strongly urge them to look into the secular summer camps. Camp 42 here in the Southeast US or Camp Quest around the US and Canada provide secular kids life-changing experiences.  

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Dr. Cleaveland.

Cleaveland: Thank you so much, it was nice talking with you.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.