Papa Alioune Seck on UN Women’s ‘Gender Snapshot 2024’

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2024/09/25

Papa Alioune Seck is the Chief of UN Women’s Research and Data section, where he has been leading statistics since 2009.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are here with Papa Alioune Seck, who is the Chief of the Research and Data Division of UN Women. 

UN Women was present at the 79th session of the UN General Assembly in New York City. The 79th UNGA is, once again, another essential point in the year to anchor some work and reportage on gender equality globally, specifically concerning sustainable development, particularly the Sustainable Development Goals, following the Millennium Development Goals. When heads of state, government officials, and others come together to work on a common cause for gender equality, UN Women has produced the Gender Snapshot 2024 report, released in the middle of this month.

What does the Gender Snapshot 2024 report provide that other reports that might not be “snapshots” provide, perhaps in a more in-depth analysis of gender equality progress?

Papa Alioune Seck: Yes, thank you very much. To quickly recap, the SDG Gender Snapshot is a report we produce annually. It is the only report in the UN system that comprehensively assesses progress towards gender equality within the framework of the Sustainable Development Goals.

Each year, we produce this report, systematically reviewing all 17 goals—not just Goal 5 on gender equality, but all the goals—considering the gender dimensions of each and assessing progress towards achieving those objectives. This makes it a unique report and product, extensively used by delegations attending the UN General Assembly and by countries at regional and national levels to assess their progress towards the objectives they have set for themselves.

Jacobsen: And globally speaking, what positive trends are you noticing?

Seck: On the positive front, several new developments cause celebration. For example, following increases during the COVID-19 pandemic, the number of women and girls in extreme poverty is now declining. It is 9.8%, down from 10.3% last year. This is the first time since the pandemic that poverty rates dip below 10%, a positive development.

We also see that the number of girls out of school has decreased by 5.4 million since 2015. Currently, one in four seats in parliament is held by women, up from one in five in 2015. Child marriage is declining; the percentage of women and girls who marry as children has fallen from 24.1% to 18.7% since 2020. Additionally, we have seen far more legal reforms enacted by countries—56 positive legal reforms since 2019, when we began tracking this data.

So, we are witnessing some changes, momentum, and progress. While it is not enough, it is certainly something to be celebrated.

Jacobsen: And, on the flip side, what is happening on the negative front?

Seck: There are also areas of concern on the negative front.

If we take conflict as an example, conflict is increasing around the world. Last year, 612 million women and girls lived within 50 kilometres of a conflict or crisis, a 41% increase since 2015. We have been seeing steady increases in the number of women and girls who are victims of conflict. One of the most egregious problems on that front is the increasing number of victims of sexual violence.

For instance, the UN verified 3,688 cases last year, a 50% increase. In 95% of those cases, the victims were women and girls. However, progress is not sufficient to achieve our objectives. That is the critical point here. I have spoken about the decline in poverty, but the rate is slow.

At this rate, it would take 137 years to eradicate extreme poverty. A girl born today would have to wait 39 years before women achieve equal representation in parliaments with men. A girl born today will be 68 before child marriage is eradicated. It will take almost 300 years to achieve legal equality between men and women at the current pace of legal reforms.

Again, there is progress, but more than that, progress is needed to achieve our objectives. What about on the financial front? Which countries are at the forefront of attaining more gender-equal pay? The main issue regarding women living independently, outside any societal or relational structure that might be oppressive, is financial income.

Yes, it is about income. For example, women and girls living in extreme poverty, which is measured as living on less than $2.15 a day—those in poverty are primarily in low-income countries. In high-income countries, we look at poverty either with a higher threshold or more in a relative form. However, one of the critical issues we highlight in this report is that poverty exists everywhere. It is not just in developing countries; poverty and social exclusion exist everywhere.

We see high inequality, for example, in developed countries and high-income economies. When it comes to equal pay, pay differentials exist in all countries. Countries with lower gender pay gaps tend to have more pay transparency, such as those that have passed laws requiring companies to publish salaries and ensure accountability. Those countries tend to have lower pay gaps. However, there is no country where women have the same pay standards as men.

Jacobsen: How does this report compare to the World Economic Forum’s Gender Gap Report? 

Seck: They are different reports. The World Economic Forum publishes a report with an index yearly, comparing countries to determine which are performing better on specific dimensions.

While this report is not an index, it examines each Sustainable Development Goal. It looks at gender indicators within each goal. Last year, we produced another report called The Path to Equality that looked at two different indices: one focused on gender parity and the other on women’s empowerment. I can share the link to that report with you.

That report is more closely aligned with the kinds of indices that the World Economic Forum publishes. We also assess how countries are faring on different dimensions of gender equality. The indices cover around 100 countries. Last year, we found that most women live in countries with low gender parity achievements.

So, there is high inequality between women and men, and women also have low levels of empowerment. That was one of the findings we had last year. Less than 10% of women globally live in countries with high levels of gender equality and women’s empowerment, or less than 10% of the world’s women.

Jacobsen: What about the regions of the world which, according to the report, lack robust reporting systems on various metrics of gender inequality? How does this make your job as a statistician more difficult?

Seck: This is an interesting question because it touches on precisely what we have been trying to address. This is based on other work we did with the OECD, which we published three weeks ago. In this report, we included a summary of Goal 17.

In the brief, we examined countries’ abilities and capacities to produce and use gender data. We found that, on average, countries are only halfway to their full potential, scoring about 53 out of 100 in producing and using gender data. This indicates that capacity gaps are widespread. Interestingly, we found that it is not merely a matter of income level or overall statistical capacity.

We see countries across the spectrum: some high-income countries, for example, have a low capacity to produce gender data, while some low-income countries have a high capacity to make it. This shows that the capacity to create and use gender data is not perfectly correlated with a country’s level of development or income.

Jacobsen: Are there any national or regional initiatives through the UN that are reflected in this report? For instance, there are significant initiatives like HeForShe, where celebrities promote various UN Women messages and gender equality across nations. Is this a reality we are seeing, or is it too subtle to measure?

Seck: Yes, in the report, we don’t necessarily cite UN initiatives directly, but I can give you some examples. We have a project focused on care that supports families by reducing and redistributing unpaid domestic care work, allowing women to free up their time to join the labour force. Another project I led focused on statistics and has shown excellent results where data is used to inform laws, care policies, etc.

We also have several examples of positive UN initiatives that have led to progress, such as the UN’s Social Protection and Jobs Accelerator, which were successful initiatives. However, progress is possible at the country level if there is political will and investment.

In the report, for example, we mention India’s project to expand access to water, which, in about five years, led to 117 million households gaining access. This shows that if countries invest, there is significant potential for progress.

At UN Women, we also have an initiative called Generation Equality, launched this morning. It demonstrates the power of multi-stakeholder initiatives to achieve progress. Through Generation Equality, $50 billion has been committed to gender equality investments. We have seen almost 2,000 policies being implemented to advance causes such as equal pay, preventing gender-based violence, and improving care work.

These are examples of initiatives contributing to some of the progress we see. 

Jacobsen: Are there specific initiatives we thought would work but were ineffective despite investing hundreds of millions? In the next funding cycle, we could redistribute funds based on the data, research, and analysis you or others are conducting.

Seck: Yes, development is also a process—a process of learning. I would probably rephrase that to say it is not necessarily that you find an initiative that ultimately does not work. If that is the case, there is likely a mistake in the implementation. Generally, what happens is that, as part of our projects, we collect data to identify where adjustments can be made.

Projects start to adapt and learn when we observe different outcomes. For example, something that works in one country might need to be adapted to a different context because countries have different circumstances. That is also why we collect data—not just to monitor progress but to inform processes and policies so that they can be more effective.

Jacobsen: Which region have you noticed making the most significant progress toward gender equality?

Seck: They have yet to progress on the same issues. For example, the fight against climate change is a priority in Asia-Pacific, and we see many advances in addressing disaster-related issues. In Arab states, there is a strong drive towards legal reform, giving women more rights. There have been many technological breakthroughs in Africa, particularly Sub-Saharan Africa, with the region catching up quite rapidly.

In developed regions, we are seeing significant shifts in social and gender norms that contribute to discrimination. So, depending on your chosen area, there is a positive story to tell. It is not a blanket statement; for example, education has improved everywhere, but regions do not all start at the same level. Progress is relative, depending on the indicator you choose.

Jacobsen: How do countries in conflict impact some of these reports? There will be dramatic shifts over just a few years.

Seck: Yes, that is where we see the most significant regression. Countries in conflict, as documented in the report, face severe issues related to maternal health, with maternal mortality rates increasing in these settings. Women in conflict-affected countries have substantial challenges accessing healthcare, and there are also issues related to mental health, sexual violence, and so forth. Child marriage rates are higher in conflict countries than in non-conflict countries, and poverty levels are also higher.

So, conflict exacerbates the development challenges that countries face.

Jacobsen: What about closely linked issues, such as malnutrition and improper diet, which lead to difficulties in thinking and maintaining energy levels during class time for children and adolescents and affect brain development?

Seck: Yes, that is why school feeding programs, for example, are crucial to keep kids in school and ensure they are learning. Issues related to social protection are also important. Providing social protection to households ensures that children have food before going to school and a proper place to live. These challenges exist everywhere, in both developed and developing countries.

Child poverty is a significant issue in developed countries; social protection measures help alleviate these problems.

Jacobsen: How about progress on things like vaccinations and sanitation? These are tied to diet and nutrition and contribute to healthier living through basic infrastructure.

Seck: Yes, these are fundamental health system issues. Access to vaccinations and sanitation is vital for overall health, which, in turn, impacts nutrition and diet quality. Ensuring proper infrastructure for these elements is critical for healthier living.

Health systems need to be geared towards addressing these challenges. The World Health Organization (WHO) would be better positioned to answer questions about global vaccination efforts. Still, from our perspective, we see quite a lot of progress. However, you have raised the issue of conflict.

Recently, for example, we’ve seen the reemergence of polio in Gaza. These are some of the challenges we must be consistently vigilant about. New diseases always emerge; monkeypox is one example that needs to be addressed. A few years ago, we had COVID-19, and it is still here. These ongoing health challenges must be managed, and countries must continue systematically investing in their health systems.

About half of women face at least one restriction that prevents them from accessing the same jobs as men. What are those barriers commonly? Are they legal or social?

Seck: The data we discuss concerns primarily legal barriers, which vary from country to country. In some countries, women are not allowed to perform the same jobs as men for various reasons. For example, they may not be allowed to lift packages above a certain weight, supposedly to protect them, or they might be prohibited from working at night. These are legal restrictions specific to certain countries.

There are many more social restrictions, such as limitations on the types of jobs women can do or restrictions on whether women can leave the household. These kinds of barriers exist in all countries.

Jacobsen: What about the fact that more than half of countries do not have a robust definition of rape within the context of sexual violence?

Seck: Yes, this is precisely our concern. Rape is rape. There are internationally accepted definitions of rape and clear guidelines in international law on what constitutes rape. It needs to be non-negotiable.

Countries must align their legal definitions with these international standards. Rape is rape, and this issue should not be subject to interpretation or debate. Countries need to get their act together.

Jacobsen: Regarding the Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs), what are the most significant factors to advance gender equality?

Seck: If we could significantly move any particular area, it would accelerate progress toward gender equality, reducing the timeline from over a century to much shorter.

However, it is not about one specific thing or a “magic bullet” that, if enacted, will immediately result in progress. It is about a combination of efforts that advance gender equality. For example, in Goal 1, implementing policies—like equal pay, investing in infrastructure, or expanding social protection—could make a substantial difference. Investing in access to sexual and reproductive health services is another crucial area.

When you implement a package of policies together, you can lift 115 million women out of extreme poverty. Invest in care services and infrastructure, such as access to water. You can create 300 million decent low-carbon jobs. Additionally, by putting girls and boys in school and educating them properly, GDP can increase by $470 billion a year.

These are examples of how a comprehensive package of policies can move the needle. It is not about a single action—each action is essential. Still, together, they create the momentum needed to drive significant progress.

Jacobsen: In many countries, women are far more educated than men by many metrics. How significant is this trend, especially when it involves both primary and secondary education and post-secondary education, such as master’s and PhD degrees in critical professions?

Seck: It is pretty significant. In many world regions, women excel in education, especially at the post-secondary level. However, one concern is that while women do better than men in education, this success is not fully translating into the labour market. We still see job segregation, with women underrepresented in technical fields such as IT and emerging technologies like AI, which men still dominate.

So, while the progress in education is positive, it does not translate into equivalent gains in the job market for women.

Jacobsen: What about political life? Is this education translating into political representation?

Seck: Political life shows a similar trend. For example, only about 1 in 4 legislators worldwide are women. That is 1 in 4 when women make up half of the world’s population. In many countries, there is still a perception that men make better business leaders and parliamentarians than women. This discrimination persists, and there is also a significant amount of political violence against women politicians. At the current rate, it will take 39 years for women to achieve equal representation in parliament.

Jacobsen: What have been the most significant learning curves for UN Women since conducting this research and publishing these reports, especially in line with substantial goals like the previous MDGs or the SDGs?

Seck: I would not necessarily call it a learning curve, but the challenge lies in finding the data. As I mentioned, we still face many challenges in producing gender data. This makes creating this report on an annual basis quite challenging in terms of documenting progress and so on. However, despite these challenges, we can overcome them and produce a yearly solid report.

Jacobsen: I see we are nearing the end of our time. Do you have any final points or comments about our conversation today about the Snapshot Report? Just more on the timeline and the way forward, etc. So, what do you expect?

Seck: Well, regarding gender equality, I hope it takes less than a century. Regarding the interview, I will transcribe and edit it immediately after we finish. I have developed and refined my process, but it is still experimental through GoSpoken. I will not bore you with the details.

Let us keep in touch. 

Jacobsen: You and UN Women do excellent work. Great, thank you so much. 

Seck: Let’s keep in touch. I am happy to connect you with colleagues.

Jacobsen: Perfect. Thank you very much.

Seck: Take care. Goodbye.

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