Dr. Seth Meyers: Healthy and Narcissistic Relationships

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2024/12/02

Seth Meyers, Psy.D. (Psychology Today) is a licensed clinical psychologist, T.V. guest, author, and relationship expert. He appears regularly on television on “Nancy Grace.” He has also appeared on “Dr. Drew,” “20/20,” “Good Morning America,” “The Doctors,” “Fox News,” Showbiz Tonight,” “Bill Cunningham,” “Jane Velez-Mitchell,” “The Early Show,” “Good Day L.A.,” “KTLA,” and others. He has been featured in The New York Times, USA Today, and The Huffington Post. His official website includes many media credits and television clips. He wrote Dr. Seth’s Love Prescription: Overcome Relationship Repetition Syndrome and Find the Love You Deserve. His newest podcast, on Spotify and iTunes, is INSIGHT with Dr. Seth.

Meyers explores the differences between healthy and narcissistic relationships. Healthy relationships are characterized by mutual support, trust, and reciprocity. In contrast, narcissistic ones often involve power imbalances and a lack of empathy. Narcissists display grandiose thinking and create an emotionally intense but ultimately unhealthy dynamic. Meyers emphasizes the importance of finding a relationship where one’s nervous system feels balanced and peaceful, contrasting this with the overstimulation common in narcissistic relationships.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are here for round two with Dr. Seth Meyers. We’re going to discuss his area of expertise, specifically relationships and narcissism, keeping the conversation focused. I want to begin with the basics, as many people who aren’t experts, like myself, may have ideas about them, but we can only partially understand them. So, how do you distinguish between healthy relationships and narcissistic ones?

Dr. Seth Meyers: A subtler question is whether there are any points where narcissistic and healthy relationships overlap. One of the hallmarks of healthy relationships is the presence of agreed-upon expectations for the relationship and each other. In healthy relationships, there should be reciprocity, consideration of each other’s feelings, and the capacity for perspective-taking. In unhealthy relationships, there is often no agreement on expectations, and the root of the problem frequently lies in power imbalances or hierarchies.

In many unhealthy relationships, there is a power imbalance where one partner is expected to dominate. The dominant partner expects the other to submit and know their place in the relationship. This dynamic can function as long as both partners remain in their prescribed roles of dominator and submitter. In other unhealthy relationships, the problem may not stem from power but dependence versus independence. There is anxiety around one partner individuating too much, leading to over-dependence.

In this type of relationship, which Melody Beattie refers to as codependent, the unspoken rule is that one cannot individuate without causing significant anxiety and problems within the relationship. As an aside, I believe Melody Beattie’s Codependent No More is one of the most helpful self-help books ever written. It addresses codependence, enmeshment, and the lack of boundaries that characterize many unhealthy relationships.

Jacobsen: Now, regarding Cluster B personality disorders, such as Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD), or individuals who fall along the narcissism spectrum—whether defined by traits or personality styles—how do these personalities fit into the dominator-submitter relationship dynamic?

Meyers: A colloquial way to describe this dynamic is to say that, in a relationship, a narcissistic personality must be recognized as the most important person in the room. This means that the narcissist’s needs take precedence over everyone else’s. It’s not psychopathic in the sense that the narcissist believes others have no needs at all, but rather that others’ needs are ranked a distant second to their own. Understanding this hierarchy and ranking is essential to understanding narcissistic thinking.

With a narcissistic personality in a relationship, the typical expectations of equality and mutual respect are abandoned from the start, as the narcissist would never agree to such terms. Problems develop because, initially, the non-narcissistic partner may set aside their thoughts and feelings to keep the peace and maintain the relationship. However, over time, the lack of fairness and reciprocity erodes their tolerance, eventually leading them to assert themselves and rebel against the unequal dynamic. The expectations within the relationship, or lack thereof, become a source of conflict. Additionally, in many relationships with a narcissist, there is a fundamental lack of sharing and mutual curiosity, which is often absent entirely.

One example would be that it is normal for two people in a relationship at the end of the day to show curiosity about what the other has experienced while they are out in the world. The narcissistic personality typically isn’t interested in what happens in another person’s day, whether it’s a stranger or a spouse. So, there’s this strange dynamic of a relationship of one when there are two people. It’s a circuitous solipsism. Everything feeds back into the mental landscape of the narcissist, which, from what I’ve gathered talking to other experts, is a rather fragmented and sad affair internally.

Jacobsen: If we are looking for a metaphor to describe the topography of a relationship with a narcissist, we can think of the narcissistic personality as a sort of island. What on this island is the least conducive to any healthy relationship? And, of those things present, are any even remotely treatable in a couples therapy setting, for instance?

Meyers: That’s a good question. A relationship with a narcissistic personality is not necessarily impossible. There are certain conditions under which someone could potentially maintain a relationship with a narcissist over time. What would be required is that the narcissist does not perceive the emotional needs and expressions of the other person as demanding or triggering in any way. For example, suppose a narcissist had a particularly complicated relationship with a parent, sibling, or previous romantic partner because they don’t typically engage in self-reflective work to heal. In that case, they will likely continue to carry those emotional wounds.

So, anyone in a relationship with them who reminds them of those past triggering individuals will likely not be tolerated. Narcissistic personalities do have some strengths they’ve cultivated over time, and they do have some capacity for relationships. Narcissists usually have biologically driven social needs for companionship. So, a relationship with a narcissist can work if the other person doesn’t ask for too much or talk too much.

Jacobsen: Essentially, they have to know their place and support the narcissist’s grandiose self-image.

Meyers: One example might be a husband who is married to a narcissistic wife. At parties, he regularly comments, “She must be one of the smartest people I’ve ever known,” or, “There’s no better mother to our children than this woman.” Now, whether these statements are true or not doesn’t matter. What matters for the narcissist is that the person they’ve chosen to keep supports their public image.

You see, the image at home doesn’t matter. What matters is the image in public. 

You mentioned something interesting earlier about their lack of self-insight or reflective capacity. That’s intriguing because it highlights the deep self-absorption and a lack of introspection. So how does that work? How does one have self-absorption without much self-reflection?

Meyers: Right. One way to understand narcissistic thinking is to relate it to the developmental growth spectrum we see in human beings. Picture an infant, a child, and an adult, each at different stages of awareness and cognitive development. For example, we don’t expect a four-year-old to have the capacity for complex thinking or emotional nuance because their brain development has yet to reach that point. The narcissistic personality, metaphorically speaking, functions cognitively more like a young child.

Jacobsen: That’s wild. Every time I hear it from an expert, depending on their background, it still surprises me because it’s difficult to wrap your mind around the idea that someone with the emotional maturity of a young child can be in the body of a fully grown adult—even an older adult.

Meyers: One area of research that could help answer some questions about what happens in the brain of narcissists is cognitive rigidity. A typical narcissist isn’t diagnosed as psychotic, meaning they don’t have delusions or hallucinations. However, they still exhibit grandiose thinking about themselves. So, what do we call someone who isn’t quite at the clinical level of psychosis but displays this exaggerated sense of self-importance? Is it simply grandiose narcissism, or is there a more appropriate diagnosis we haven’t yet identified?

Jacobsen: It sounds like a kind of “psychosis-lite.”

Meyers: Yes, so someone with this level of self-absorption can maintain certain functional relationships. 

Jacobsen: What’s it like for the person in those relationships? How do they feel when living within that narrow band of function with a narcissist? How do they approach you in clinical practice or casual conversation, seeking insight?

Meyers: That’s a great question. The experience of being in a close relationship with a narcissist is mind-bending. It doesn’t matter if the relationship is professional, familial, romantic, or friendship-based—proximity is key. Being near the narcissistic personality is what confuses those in the relationship.

The first stage in a relationship with a narcissist is often confusion. You might find yourself thinking, “Wait, what just happened? Did I do something wrong?” There’s much mental puzzle-solving, as these interactions with a narcissistic personality often feel like a puzzle that you’re trying to piece together.

They don’t understand what they did to upset the narcissistic personality or what they did to make them sad. The cause-and-effect relationships they’ve come to expect and rely on in most other human interactions don’t seem to explain why, in this case, the narcissistic individual is responding this way. This creates confusion. There are different emotional stages one goes through in processing one’s experience with a narcissist, and many of those stages may mirror Kübler-Ross’s stages of grief after being misunderstood for so long, after constantly feeling that they are hurting or upsetting the narcissist without understanding why, the person may feel angry and frustrated.

They may even reach a stage of learned helplessness, where they feel, “No matter what I do, I can’t win,” and they give up. They may feel depressed. Does the individual in a relationship with a narcissist ever reach the grief stage of acceptance? I believe that in relationships with a narcissist, the stage of acceptance often comes when the person says, “I can’t do this anymore. I can’t continue to function in this relationship.”

Jacobsen: In the first session, you used the phrase “self-erasure” to describe the experience of individuals in these relationships. This disorientation and the slow self-erasure over time—does that essentially mean long-term relationships with narcissists are unlikely? But short-term ones are possible, as long as certain things are taken into account, like catering to the narcissist’s ego in public, whether it’s about motherhood, brilliance, or physical appearance.

Meyers: Yes, a relationship with a narcissist can last as long as the other person remains tolerant of the significant imbalances—emotional and power imbalances. The relationship will continue as long as the non-narcissistic partner tolerates those dynamics. Multiple factors influence someone’s tolerance levels. For example, someone with strong self-esteem and independence may be more likely to end the relationship sooner. And by sooner, I mean within a few years. It’s important to remember that narcissists don’t show their flaws at the beginning of the relationship.

I’m not going to use those jargony terms about narcissists “seducing” their partners because I don’t find those helpful for understanding the raw emotions underneath. But in the beginning, the narcissist is on their best behaviour, and it’s not entirely an act. The narcissist does have some desire to connect with another person. A small part of them genuinely hopes they can find love and be accepted for who they are, warts and all.

It’s not all a performance from the very beginning. What starts to happen over time is that as the relationship deepens and the interdependence increases, the narcissist’s anxiety also increases. Narcissists have highly conflictual relationships with interdependence, dependence, and vulnerability. So, returning to the question of how long a person can remain tolerant in such a relationship, it’s often within a few years that the individual begins to recognize that something is deeply wrong with the relationship.

They often cannot pinpoint exactly what the problem is. They may even have researched the term “narcissist” online. Still, because diagnosing narcissism isn’t like taking a blood test, there’s always some degree of doubt. They wonder, “Is that what it is?” There’s no definitive proof; even having a label doesn’t solve the problem. So, someone financially independent, with no children or other dependents, might be able to end the relationship within a few years.

The problem arises when the narcissist gets comfortable, usually after long-term structures are in place. Once they realize they have the other person “hook, line, and sinker,” the situation becomes more difficult to escape—especially if young children or financial dependencies are involved. The financially or parentally vulnerable person is more likely to stay in the relationship for many years—not because they are happy, but because they feel they don’t have a choice.

Meyers: That’s how they feel—they tell themselves they can’t leave without major consequences. Another complicating factor is if the couple has purchased property together. Mutual financial responsibilities like property ownership can keep the relationship going for many years.

Jacobsen: Sounds like hell.

Meyers: Oh, yes, many have lived through it. People get stuck in that situation. They want out but don’t need these complicating factors like children or financial dependencies. 

Jacobsen: How, then, do you—as a therapist, a friend, or even a concerned family member—help someone in one of these hellish situations realize what’s happening? How do you gently guide them toward a way out, practically and emotionally?

Meyers: The starting point is simple: ask yourself two basic questions. First, what is the purpose of a romantic relationship? It should be mutual support, trust, and comfort. If your relationship isn’t meeting that purpose, you must look hard at it. The second question requires more time to answer—it’s not something you figure out in 60 seconds. It is, “Am I truly comfortable being single?” This is a crucial question. I’ve heard it from many people.

Jacobsen: In a more economically egalitarian time, that question can come with an immediate answer for many, can’t it?

Meyers: Yes, exactly. In a healthy relationship, there’s flexibility, adaptability, and authenticity. It’s a bidirectional, negotiated experience. If those elements are missing, it’s a sign that the relationship may not be as healthy as it should be.

Jacobsen: Genuineness, based on mutual comfort and trust, etc. So, what I’m thinking about is how, on the conservative side of things—typically the religious conservative or traditionalist side—they have well-established ideas about gender roles, like homemakers and breadwinners. On the other hand, in more progressive, center-left, or leftist circles, we see newer ideas with terms like “male feminist,” “boss girl,” or “boss babe” language. These narratives don’t entirely reverse traditional ones but provide potential for self-stereotyping in some respects, too. It’s a very interesting phenomenon.

An authentic and negotiated relationship can fall into any of those four categories, depending on how you map them along different spectrums. So, how do you help people realize that, in a negotiated relationship, where the goal is comfort and trust, it is really about individual choice, temperament, and personal circumstances? They don’t need to fit neatly into any of these categories. It doesn’t have to be performative, the way it often is in narcissistic relationships.

Meyers: Here’s what I say to clients: The goal is to understand the difference between a new relationship that makes your central nervous system feel balanced and peaceful versus one that doesn’t. In a healthy relationship, your nervous system feels balanced and peaceful. In a relationship with a narcissist, at the beginning, the central nervous system often feels like absolute bliss.

What many people like about a relationship with a narcissist at first is the feeling of being swept off their feet. It’s Las Vegas lights lighting up their insides. The narcissist says things to them that no one has ever said before. It’s terrifying.

That feeling is like a drug, but that’s a healthy relationship. The goal should be to find someone with whom your central nervous system feels balanced and at peace, not overstimulated. That’s the big difference between healthy and unhealthy relationships. 

Jacobsen: Thank you, Seth, for your time.

Meyers: All right, thanks! See you.

Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.