Melanie Sakoda o nedoličnom ponašanju pravoslavnog svećenstva

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Hrvatski Fokus

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2024/12/25

Misconduct Melanie Sakoda is an important figure in cataloguing the crimes of the Easter Orthodox Church

GLOBAL JUSTICE PROJECT

PROJECT COORDINATOR

ALLIANCE OF CHRISTIANS OF CROATIA

Secretary of the Association,

Bojan Jovanović

Melanie Sakoda on Orthodox Clergy-

Related Misconduct

Misconduct Melanie Sakoda is an important figure in cataloguing the crimes of the Easter Orthodox Church.

What is happening in Orthodoxy?

Melanie Sakoda is a Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests (SNAP) Survivor Support Director, SNAP East Bay Leader, and SNAP Orthodox Leader. Here we talk at length on Orthodoxy and clergy-based abuse.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are here with Melanie Sakoda. She is a long-time – some like the term activist, some like someone working for a morally correct cause. You had a lot more time to reflect on the work on this issue. My first question: How did you originally get involved in this work? Because you have been doing this for decades.

Melanie Sakoda: We had an incident in our Church in San Francisco where there was a layman who was a child abuser with multiple convictions. They were allowing him free rein in our parish. Many children got hurt, as far as we can tell. That started it. The reaction when the families came forward was such a backlash. We thought, “Oh my goodness, we are complaining about someone who was only Orthodox for two weeks before his last arrest. What if you were trying to complain about the priest?” So, we decided that we wanted to start a website where people would have some place that they wanted to come, and people could have a sympathetic ear. We started in June of 1999. We took it down in March of 2020.

Jacobsen: For about 21 years, the internet was approximately too big in 1999.

Sakoda: No.

Jacobsen: Or it was smaller than it was in 2020. What was the reaction in 2020 versus 1999? What was the reason for taking it down?

Sakoda: Cappy (Larson), one of her daughters, did the original coding on the original site. Then she stepped down. It was Cappy and me. We are both in our 70s now. We were waiting to see someone stepping forward to take over for us.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Sakoda: Cappy says, “Maybe we should let them miss us.” [Laughing]

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Sakoda: So, that is what we did. Because there are expenses associated with maintaining a website, we were paying all the expenses ourselves since we needed more financial support. We had a post office box. We had a voicemail. We were paying for our domain main, then our security. Whenever people do not get the warning sign when they visit your site, it is quite pricey for people on fixed incomes. It was funny. It took some people years to notice that we were gone. I have a Facebook page, at least in the Orthodox churches. I have people who write in asking, “What happened to pokrov.org?”

Jacobsen: Now, this is common. I am finding this common through years and years of doing interviews with people who have left religious groups or who are still in, and have concerns, and want to see things become better, more just. It’s a handful of people who do specific parts of activism over an arc of time. You and Cappy are exemplars of that. So, those people also come under various forms of attack or even abuse. So, what kinds have you encountered? Which ones have been more humorous because you must develop a sense of humour in this industry? What ones could have been more humorous?

Sakoda: The most not-humorous one was Cappy’s daughter, Greta, who was still working with us. We were going to attend a conference in Dallas called Orthodox Christian Laity. Originally, Greta was going by herself, and then she received death threats from this one priest whose family was very unhappy that he had been put on our site. I ended up going with her. That was probably the scariest. One of the funniest things… do you remember when that girl went missing in Aruba many years ago?

Jacobsen: A few people may have gone missing, including Aruba.

Sakoda: It was a big case. She was a young, college-aged, blue-eyed blonde girl who went missing. We used to post on Orthodox message boards.

Jacobsen: Natalee Ann Holloway?

Sakoda: Yes. This priest puts on one of these message boards. I may have it in all of my junk. “Cappy, and you should be Aruba’d.” How inappropriate for a person?

Jacobsen: It just sounds like being an ass.

Sakoda: But the funny thing was, as the years went on, the reaction was very, very hostile at first. As the years went by, it became less hostile. People would send us stuff because they knew we would do something with it or try to do something with it.

Jacobsen: You’re in a safe zone.

Sakoda: It was an interesting experience. I do not regret it. I want to win the lottery, build the site, and hire people to work on it. We will see what happens. I do tell people on my Facebook page. I still have access to most of the information. I could get the information if they want information on someone they saw on the site. In addition to my access to the old website, I sadly have way too many hardcopy files because, of course, when I went to law school. Everything was paper. I tended to keep things on paper rather than on my computer. I have computer files.

Jacobsen: I am surprised you didn’t have anything on microfiche.

Sakoda: [Laughing].

Jacobsen: Yes, I know, microfiche.

Sakoda: I was about to say. It is pretty decent. I do have stuff on paper. When my husband and I downsized in 2018, we had this huge office with all these bookshelves. I do not have this anymore. I have a lot of the files in boxes [Laughing].

Jacobsen: Yes [Laughing].

Sakoda: Recently, someone asked me about this one group. I swear I have something else. I cannot find the hardcopy file.

Jacobsen: Doing a keyword search on a hardcopy file is hard. What aspects of justice have you reached for people who broadened to you? Has there been anything along those lines of help, or has it been a safe space where people can get information safely, and it has been a positive for them?

Sakoda: When we first started, as you mentioned, 1999 was the internet’s early days. Cappy would call people.

Jacobsen: This is from a home line. There are no cell phones.

Sakoda: There might have been cell phones. When did they start?

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Jacobsen: I don’t know either. Oh! The first one came in 1983. So, she might have had a cell phone.

Sakoda: I am sure it was from her landline.

Jacobsen: Like a rotary phone or something.

Sakoda: An abuser was in the parish. He was part of this group that came into Orthodoxy. They were originally a New Age San Francisco cult called The Holy Order of Man. After Jonestown, they didn’t like being on cult lists. So, they started to look for another place to land. A lot of them began joining the Orthodox churches. Through one of Cappy’s other daughters, we found some guy who was from The Holy Order of Man, saying the Orthodox guy they went to was part of this cult group and had been Greek Orthodox. He was upset when they went with this Metropolitan Pangratios Vrionis of the Archdiocese of Vasiloupolis. Because he said, “He is an abuser. He’s been convicted.” We found this little thing on some Orthodox forum on the internet. You need help to look online for this information. All our information was from Pennsylvania and differed from what county or anything. So, Cappy started calling up every county and looking. “Do you have criminal records for this figure?” How hard could it be? Pangratios Vrionis, that’s not a name…

Jacobsen: …very rare, even for the Greeks!

Sakoda: She finally found him. The clerk there at the courthouse was very sympathetic. I shouldn’t tell you this. She not only sent us the records without charging us, but she went – and like me – looked in archives. She had things in boxes. She found a few more pages. She sent them all to us for free. That was one of the first cases we publicized on our website, which was Pangratios Vrionis. After it went public that he had this conviction, he was still operating as a bishop in Queens, New York.

Jacobsen: It is, probably, a big diocese.

Sakoda: Yes. Newer victims came forward.

Jacobsen: Of course.

Sakoda: He was convicted a second time. That was our first venture into it. Originally, we did a lot of that. Cappy is on her phone talking to clerks in various counties nationwide. But as time went on, as I said, people would start sending us stuff. They would say, “So-and-so is convicted; here is a link to the article.” Maybe, as the internet, too, picked up. There are some counties where you can look online for the records, but not as much as I would like. It became easier to find information.

Jacobsen: I want to search this one thing for this question. National Sexual Violence Resource Center (NSVRC), “One in five women and one in 71 men will be raped at some point in their lives… In eight out of 10 cases of rape, the victim knew the person who sexually assaulted them.” So, those are the numbers to indicate the extreme forms of sexual violence. Both experience them naturally, though women often experience them from men and men they know. So, if those are the rates in the US, how are the rates in the Church? Are they the same, or are they higher? If they are higher, what is the point of the Church as moral relevance to these people’s lives?

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Sakoda: The trouble is, as I mentioned when we were talking earlier, there aren’t real reliable statistics of abuse in the Orthodox churches. Since 2002, the Catholic Church has published lists of abusers by the diocese. There is the John Jay Report. There is not, to my knowledge, not a single Orthodox jurisdiction in this country that publishes information about their abusers. The closest we came was the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese for a while.

You will see a priest was removed, but you do not know why. Did he decide that he doesn’t want to be a priest anymore? Was he embezzling? Or was he sexually abusing someone in his parish, whether man, woman, or child? They don’t publish that. For a very short while, the Greeks froze or suspended. It might, if someone was defrocked or suspended, have had to do with the settlement in a Greek case. That someone was one of their non-monetary requests. It only lasted a short time. You don’t know. You can track it. Another thing related to the Orthodox cases is that the Catholics have the official Catholic directory. It is published every year. It is a huge book. It lists all the priests in the US and their assignments. The Orthodox do not have that kind of resource to track people. So, if you saw the spotlight movie, you would remember., They are looking for gaps.

People are frequently on ‘leave of absence’ or ‘medical leaves.’ We do not have that resource. I do have many directories. Now, they’re more likely to be online. I just downloaded a copy and put it on my overloaded computer. It is really hard to find information about the Orthodox cases. They’re under the radar. Are you familiar with the calendar issue? Some of the Orthodox churches use a different calendar than the others. What it is, a Pope, Pope Gregory instituted a calendar to start adding leap years because they realized.

Jacobsen: Oh! He stole that from Dionysus Exiguus. I am aware of that one.

Sakoda: Oh, okay, some Orthodox churches will celebrate Christmas on January 7th. They are on what is known as the Julian calendar, but it is a modified Julian calendar because it includes a leap year. So, believe it or not, this is a huge issue in Orthodoxy, particularly in this country. When you have abusers, “I decided the calendar was not where it was at. I decided the new calendar is the reason for all the problems in Orthodoxy.” Abusers were using that as an excuse why they were transitioning from one Church to another.

Jacobsen: A calendar.

Sakoda: Yes. There is this joke. “How many Orthodox does it change to a lightbulb?”

Jacobsen: How many?

Sakoda: “What? Change? No.”

Jacobsen: That’s right. That is why the men don’t shave. When asked why the men grow such long beards, I remember a funny response. He responds, “I would be more curious about the reverse. Why did the men start shaving?” I will give them that one.

Sakoda: It is funny. Some of the ultra-conservativism in Orthodoxy is not new. I remember my grandmother; I cannot remember if it was about wearing a scarf in Church or wearing a pantsuit to Church. My grandmother responded, “Of course, I wear a pantsuit to Church. What do you think this is, the old country?” [Laughing] My grandparents were immigrants, as was my mother. They came from a different world. Some of these things, I don’t know if you have come across the other funny thing. This is called the toll houses. Have you heard about the toll houses?

Jacobsen: No.

Sakoda: They have nothing to do with cookies. It is the theory that when you die. Christ does not judge you. You go through this series of toll houses. Where the Devil judges you, it has become popular in more conservative circles. Father Seraphim Rose was in that theology. The trouble is that it is used. It would be best if you had a spiritual father. You must do what your spiritual father tells you to get through the toll houses. I had one man tell me. “Okay, if your spiritual father tells you to kill someone, would you?” He said, “Yes.”

Jacobsen: Wait. The spiritual father has more authority than the Decalogue.

Sakoda: Yes, than anything, your conscience, the Bible.

Jacobsen: That’s kind of troublesome.

Sakoda: It is very troublesome. Some of these groups were amassing. They had weapons caches.

Jacobsen: Like AK47s and grenades?

Sakoda: Yes.

Jacobsen: What?

Sakoda: Because they are preparing for the end of days.

Jacobsen: Of course, you need ammunition and weaponry for demons. They probably watched Constantine too much or something.

Sakoda: It was a different world to me. What I started to say, I was telling my father’s youngest sister about this. She has been Orthodox her entire life. She says, “I have never heard of toll houses.” [Laughing] Because people are not well-versed in their religion. Someone comes along with this snow-white beard and is presented as an elder.

Jacobsen: Looking like Jehovah in the illustrated Bible or something.

Sakoda: One man told me once he was in Greece someplace. He met this woman. They had a brief fling. The next day, he went to see this elder. The elder told him exactly what he had done the night before. So, that must mean the elder was clairvoyant. I said to him. “Or that the elder sent the woman to you, which is, probably, more likely.” The idea is that the elder tells you to meet this man and have sex with him. You do it. Otherwise, you will not go through the toll houses.

Jacobsen: It is the unquestioned authority. It will be different per community. But that fundamental of unquestioned authority is the fundamental issue.

Sakoda: I was surprised. The money for these monasteries was supposedly coming from the Russian mafia.

Jacobsen: Ha!

Sakoda: I have much information about those allegations and why they thought they were. The idea, especially now, is with Putin and the invasion of Ukraine. It is Russian money. There are monasteries with guns, supposedly. I don’t have any firsthand knowledge of it because I wouldn’t set foot in those monasteries [Laughing]. You must wear a tablecloth on your head if you are a woman.

Jacobsen: The gun in churches thing is, ironically, American.

Sakoda: Yes [Laughing].

Jacobsen: The tablecloth on the head, that’s more – I don’t know – fundamentalist Islam or fringe Christian groups in the United States.

Sakoda: It has become more and more of a thing within Orthodoxy. As you see more and more converts coming into Orthodoxy, they are benignly brought in by these groups. My aunts spent their entire time in the Church. “They don’t know what they’re talking about.” Hats, maybe, and head coverings were optional when I grew up. I must admit. In the 50s, we did wear hats when we went to Church. Not in the sense of having to cover your hair or anything. You see little girls who have to have ankle-length skirts with these big head coverings. To me, there is something wrong with it. As one woman I used to work with, she was a priest’s wife. She had a PhD working in the area of clergy sex abuse. She says, “When you start to think about that, what is that telling people? Children are sexual objects.” She thought it was abusive. In some places, you could get your bathing suits from the Mennonites or whatever [Laughing].

Jacobsen: Probably better than the Mormons; they have full-body underwear that they think can protect you from bullets. If it works, that’s great, but call me skeptical!

Sakoda: All children should have them [Laughing].

Jacobsen: Especially if you go to a Russian Orthodox Church [Laughing] or an American church.

Sakoda: Orthodoxy has changed since I was a child. It has not changed for the better.

Jacobsen: Has the core issue of abuse changed significantly other than the fact that it is coming out more?

Sakoda: I don’t think it has changed. I think it was sad when we first started talking about what had happened at our Church and started talking to priests whom I trusted/admired; they all kept saying, “Abuse is unknown in the Orthodox church.”

Jacobsen: Ha! Yes, I saw some vague commentary by some Orthodox priests about that, where they were more or less saying, “Look, it doesn’t happen at all or as much in our Church. Regardless, we’re not the Catholics, and look at them.” That’s the argument. It is an insidious and disgusting argument if that’s your standard.

Sakoda: I took a paper. The Orthodox Church of America was having its annual or bi-annual conference. I didn’t register. I went. I had my books out. As people entered the conference, I was handing out my subversive literature.

Jacobsen: Excellent, way to go, good job, we appreciate you.

Sakoda: The funny thing was that this was, again, one of those things that made it seem like Cappy was finding the conviction for Pangratios. The colour I chose for my little booklets was the same as the liturgy for the conference [Laughing].

Jacobsen: Nice.

Sakoda: People were grabbing them, thinking they were liturgy books.

Jacobsen: No!

Sakoda: They were opening them.

Jacobsen: Surprise.

Sakoda: Surprise! I don’t remember if I learned how he got it. I got this card from this man talking about his daughter being abused by an Orthodox priest. It was somewhere around the Chicago area. He was telling a lie about that. That, yes, it happens. They don’t talk about it. Or they cover it up. There was a case from the 1800s that was in the papers about an Orthodox priest abusing somebody.

Jacobsen: Can you send me that?

Sakoda: I could if I could find it, Scott [Laughing].

Jacobsen: It is not a small project. This kind of thing. It takes time.

Sakoda: I have a closet full of papers four big boxes. As I said, I have a penchant for keeping things hard, not scanning, and putting them on my computer. But it has been a problem. If you don’t talk about a problem, you can’t solve it. That’s my issue. If you want people to stay in the Church, you must minister to the hurt people—the direct victims and their family members. Many family members leave after this kind of incident, too.

Jacobsen: They either convert out or stop believing.

Sakoda: If the Church is the arc of salvation, then you should have everyone on board. It would help if you didn’t reject the people who have been injured. It is a big shock when they think, “We are the injured party. We got to the Church. We expect to be embraced. ‘I am so sorry. What can we do for you?’” That does not happen. I do not recall a victim saying it. It could be the ones who do, do not contact me. It does not happen. Part of it may be a need for more education. What do you do when someone comes and tells you that? What should the response be?

Jacobsen: Some of the most recent Canadian Armed Forces. In the 2022 data published December 5th, 2023, most Canadian Armed Forces members don’t think it is something they do; it’s a lifestyle with a contract they sign. Over half of Canadian Armed Forces members either deal with it informally – that’s another category, and those who do file a report figure something will be done, or more will be done. So, it would help if you got those stories. So, even the self-selected groups reporting on this are the more hopeful groups; other sets are not reporting it: Dealing with it themselves or among their family. They leave. Some try reconciling it with their faith, God, or religion. I imagine that being a very difficult line to thread.

Sakoda: Yes, because, I think, one of the unfortunate things, usually, when you go to a church or a Christian church, “You need to forgive and forget.”

Jacobsen: That’s toxic.

Sakoda: It’s not how abuse manifests itself in people’s lives. You could be going along thinking, “I’ve put my abuser out of my mind.” Maybe the child turns the age of you when you were abused; then it brings it back up. For survivors, it is more of an up-and-down rollercoaster. What does it mean to forgive in that case? My best definition is that you are not thinking about this, not holding onto all of this anger and angst. You are moving on with your life.

Jacobsen: Right, it has been integrated.

Sakoda: What has happened to you has been done; it will not change.

Jacobsen: That part can’t be changed and is the hardest to accept.

Sakoda: Yes, I have a lot of Orthodox priests that said nasty things to me. One accused me that if you say this to people, it will damage them. I said, “No, if you have a child that is in a car accident and loses a leg, can that child go on and have a happy life? Of course. Will it ever get another leg? No.” Sexual abuse is the same thing. It is a permanent injury. So, what you want is you want it to heal nicely with the scar, not to be a constant abscess.

Jacobsen: What else have they said to you?

Sakoda: Our favourite one, this is another funny one.

Jacobsen: This is the point of doing this work for those reading this. You will only make it long-term if you have a sense of humour.

Sakoda: No, you laugh at things that are not funny, but you laugh at things all the time. What is the alternative – being angry and crying all the time? A priest said Cappy and I were obvious lesbians.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Sakoda: I called Cappy and asked, “Did you see this? Should we tell our husbands?” [Laughing]

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Sakoda: I’ve been married for 49 years this year. She’s been married longer. It’s like, “Gee, should we tell Greg and Robert?” Anything or we were angry.

Jacobsen: Yes, many atheists get that when they’re critiquing religious injustice. It is the same as speaking out in the Church.

Sakoda: My favourite response was, “Why aren’t you angry that children are being permanently injured in the name of God?”

Jacobsen: Should you be angry with me?

Sakoda: Yes, shouldn’t you be angry with me? You don’t have to throw rocks or take those machine guns.

Jacobsen: I take anger, but not necessarily in its obvious forms of pitchforks, torches, rocks, and guns. It is the long-term burn of letter writing, campaigning, filing reports, press releases, interviewing, and gathering databases.

Sakoda: If you want to look at it, as I told someone too, Christ took the whips from the moneychangers and drove them out of the temple. There is a precedent for some anger. Then you get a response. “What? Do you think you’re Christ?”

Jacobsen: Isn’t he supposed to be the example for these folks?

Sakoda: It is an example. It shows you there is a time and a place. My uncle, an Orthodox priest, was my father’s youngest brother. This came to me through a convoluted process, which I won’t get into. He once told a woman who was struggling. She went to him for confession. A relative abused her children. She said, “I cannot forgive them for what they did.” My uncle told her, “Christ is going on his ministry and saying, ‘Your sins are forgiven. Your sins are forgiven. Your sins are forgiven.’” She goes, “What did he say on the Cross? ‘Father, forgive me.’” He said, “Don’t try to be better than Christ.” For whatever reason, it released her load. She said that she was doing the best she could and that she didn’t have to forgive them. She should say, “God, it is up to you.” For many survivors, particularly those struggling with remaining a part of the Church or not, that is a very meaningful thought. “I do not have to embrace my abuser.” They can wash their hands of them.

Jacobsen: Our minds only work on remembering salient information. Trauma is very salient to a person to avoid that situation again. That’s why it is trauma and highly remembered. The phrase you said about forgive and forget doesn’t fit our cognitive system, but it works: Forgive and don’t forget is the key.

Sakoda: Don’t forgive, but live a happy life anyway.

Jacobsen: It is up to the person whether they forgive. It is not up to the community, the priest, or anyone else. For some people, forgiving is not the right choice for them.

Sakoda: If you look at it, as I said, for people still trying to be within the religion, if the idea is your sins won’t be forgiven, it is fear. “How do I do this? I will be damned because I cannot forgive.” That’s why I said what my uncle said to this woman. It gave her much comfort because he wasn’t demanding. He didn’t say, “How terrible, you are going to Hell if you don’t forgive your relative for sexually abusing your children.” He said, “Let God sort it out.” You go and live your life. I think that’s not an easy thing to do anyway. It is harder to do if you are still trapped in this idea. “Oh my God, I am damning myself if I can’t do this.”

Jacobsen: After 2020, what are the updates on these kinds of cases for the Orthodox Church? I will be working on an analysis of the materials that Hermina and Katherine gave me. It is a year-by-year chronology of what they have so far, summarizing and breathing new life into those popular or unpopular news reports.

Sakoda: [Laughing].

Jacobsen: It covers a little bit. It doesn’t have legal force. It takes people like yourself, Hermina, Katherine, Lucy, and others to make things happen. I am nothing. All the people I am aware of working on this regarding Eastern Orthodox traditions are women who are approximately 40 years old and older.

Sakoda: And up and up! [Laughing].

Jacobsen: Right, so, what is it about women in those communities and being in the latter half of life, statistically speaking, that puts that demographic in a position to speak on these topics over a long period and to put in the hard work that is doing statistical analysis, getting data, getting the stories, and being a resource for people?

Sakoda: Part of it, religion has always been more of a women’s province anyway. When you have a community, for the Orthodox and the Catholics, you do not have women priests. You do not even have women deacons anymore. Although, there is a revival of that going on in the Orthodox churches. So, it is a man-centred thing.

Jacobsen: True.

Sakoda: I think men and women react a little bit differently to trauma. Part of it could be, too. I remember the MeToo Movement, which started or exploded, and there were all these things about women posting MeToo and talking about what they do to protect themselves. There was a man puzzled. He posted, “What do you do to avoid sexual assault?” He goes, “Stay out of prison.”

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Sakoda: Women are constantly under assault or unwelcome touching. I think it gives them a more sympathetic perspective when someone comes and says, “This happened to me.” Maybe they are more likely to believe it happened to you because it happened to them. I don’t think you could interact with an adult woman who hasn’t been assaulted in some form or another. You’re on the train or bus, and someone grabs your butt. Men don’t experience that as often. Not all men, but maybe that’s a variable.

Jacobsen: I experienced some of it. I was working at a low-grade pub.

Sakoda: [Laughing].

Jacobsen: I worked in the back of the house, sometimes in the front. I worked at four restaurants simultaneously and did janitorial for 2 of them overnight, seven days a week. I remember one bartender. She would ask me to reach for something and grab my stomach, ass. That harassment was not requested [Laughing]. I don’t think, from what I am reading and have heard and been told, that’s nearly as pervasive as it has been for many women.

Sakoda: I think it doesn’t help that for many men, particularly if a man assaulted them. The idea is, “Why didn’t you fight him off?” You get a little of that as a woman. As a woman, you will often get, “What were you wearing?”

Jacobsen: Same tone in the question, too. I’m noticing. “Why didn’t you fight him off?” is “What were you wearing?” What did you do to call this upon yourself?

Sakoda: Truthfully, if I am being charitable, people’s self-protectiveness. If it can happen to you, then it can happen to me. Therefore, you must have done something to bring it onto yourself. Otherwise, it can happen to me.

Jacobsen: the question will assume men’s strength and self-defence regarding aggression. For the women, I am getting two points there. On the one hand, what are you wearing? Many women’s power in society has to do with their beauty. That’s what has been assigned. On the other hand, how they relate to one another in terms of telling their stories is relational. It is seeing that story in another person.

Sakoda: The other thing, something that you said. My book club read this book by Deborah Tannen once, You Don’t Understand. She is a linguist. She is saying men and women speak different languages. She puts it to the men, originally hunters, and women, the gatherers. So, the men, you had to have someone in charge. You had to have a hierarchy. You did what you were told. You didn’t talk about it. You said, “You go there. You go there. This is what we are going to do.” Women would be spending all day talking and gathering stuff. So, women talk to create relationships between themselves. Men talk to convey information.

Jacobsen: As a general tendency, when men relate to one another, picture them sitting at a log and speaking parallel, not looking at each other. Women, it is face-to-face.

Sakoda: How about that? [Laughing] I like that. All of us tried to get our husbands to read the book. The worst was my husband because he was puzzled when I told him this theory; he is smart. He went to Yale. He goes, “I don’t understand. We have a relationship. You’re my wife.”  It’s not exactly what I am talking about regarding a relationship. Even within SNAP, the women leaders talk to each other. We know what is going on in each other’s lives.

Jacobsen: “How are you doing? Cindy came back from a funeral and is having a really hard time. Kathryn and her kids are doing fine. One has just entered a hard business school, and the other is sick.” [Laughing] This stuff.

Sakoda: It builds relationships instead of having someone in charge calling the shots, and there is a pecking order. Women can be vicious. Don’t get me wrong, particularly teenage girls.

Jacobsen: I agree with Margaret Atwood. I don’t think women are angels or demons.

Sakoda: They have a different way of relating to one another than men. You notice this in your marriage, going to the book club, because you’re not on the same wavelength. Women want to talk about something to happen. Men are like, “What do you want me to do?”

Jacobsen: It conveys data for action instead of narrative-building for relationship sustaining.

Sakoda: Yes, that may make women more sympathetic to survivors coming forward. They are trying to connect to them. I don’t think most women become women without experiencing some sexual assault along the way.

Jacobsen: Can you say that again? It is a very powerful phrase.

Sakoda: I don’t think some women haven’t been sexually assaulted, if they are being honest. They may not think about it. Someone is groping you on the bus and turning around and not knowing who did it. It is just a fact of life. Women do things. My husband was surprised. I was saying that most women when they park their cars. They park under a street light. They carry their keys in their hands to poke someone’s eyes out. When I open the car door at night, if I am by myself, I check in the back seat first.

Jacobsen: That last one might be Hollywood influence.

Sakoda: It is something you read. Women’s magazines talk about all kinds of things. My husband said, “Do you look at the back seat?” I said, “Yes.” It could be in the hood and popped up out. [Laughing]

Jacobsen: [Laughing]

Sakoda: Or if, sometimes, women are waiting for an elevator and a guy gives you a creepy vibe, you pretend, “I forgot. You go ahead,” because you don’t want a ride with him. One of the books I have read in the past few years is Gavin de Becker. It is called the Gift of Fear. He had a second book too. Women are taught to be more polite. My daughter has his complaint. Men always interrupt women.

Jacobsen: True. I do it!

Sakoda: [Laughing] But they do not even think about it, interrupting. Anyways, women who are supposed to be polite are supposed to accept that. When you are interrupted, you do not say anything. You say, “Quiet down.” That is one of the things. Maybe it is why women are more subject to assault because they are trying to be polite. They ignore. It is waiting for an elevator, getting creeped out, and getting in an elevator with him because you don’t want to think he creeped you out [Laughing]. It is important. Sometimes, in church situations, people ignore this: They might see the priest or teacher hugging a child. It will tingle their spidey sense. But they won’t do anything about it, particularly in church situations. “I have such a dirty mind to think that Father could have anything nefarious in mind when he is hugging this child.” It is like, “No, for whatever reason, we get these feelings. We need to pay attention to them.”

Jacobsen: Are most priest abusers likely, so far, never to have come to justice? Those who have been abused have stayed in positions of authority or been promoted.

Sakoda: Yes. As I said, I do not have as good a frame on the Orthodox because there isn’t as good of a frame. People used to ask me, “What is the rate of abuse in the Orthodox churches?” How would I know? All I know is that if you look at the names on my site, I probably have ten more I can’t put on the site because someone will write to me: Father So-and-So abused me. I keep a file on it in case someone else comes on down the road and comes and claims, “Father So-and-So abused me.” Now, I forgot what you asked [Laughing].

Jacobsen: Most who have abused, have they not come to justice?

Sakoda: I do not have as much information, but I know in the Catholic context. Very few priests have been prosecuted for their crimes. Part of that is the statute of limitations problem. After a sufficient time, the statute of limitations has expired. In the US, the Stogner decision, California tried to do this end run around, saying that they wouldn’t change the definitions of the crimes or the penalties. Still, they would allow criminal cases to be brought forward beyond the statute of limitations. The US Supreme Court said, “No, you cannot do that. It is a violation of constitutional rights. You cannot retroactively change the criminal statute of limitations.” People usually come forward between 50 and 70. It is a joke, not a nice one, that the statute of limitations stands for “Shit Out of Luck.

Jacobsen: How did George Carlin put it? “You’d be SOL and JWF. Shit out of luck and jolly well fucked.”

Sakoda: So, there’s that thing. If you figure out that the churches and the Orthodox Church are doing this, I do not have as much data. They are not reporting them to law enforcement. That is why you don’t have as many prosecutions. I am trying to think. This is one of the first big cases. I think in 1999. In an Orthodox monastery in Texas, two people were reported down there for child sex abuse. Abbott and his righthand man, what’s his name? Father Benedict Green, the other guy was Jeremiah Hitt. Besides the Pangratios conviction we uncovered, they were the first. Hitt went to trial. Benedict pleaded guilty. But you still had all these people who didn’t believe it.

Jacobsen: That is not the controversial part. That’s pretty par for the course. Even the guy who ran the human trafficking, sex trafficking, and sex cult, Keith Raniere, was part of the HBO special or documentary series, The Vow, where he was Vanguard in NXIVM. He got life in prison and several of his accomplices as well, men and women.  Still, many people defend him when in prison.

Sakoda: Yes, in this particular case, in 2006, there was a second set of charges. New victims are coming forward multiple victims. I cannot remember if 5 or 6 of them were on charges and were all convicted. Benedict Green killed himself before he could go to trial because I think he knew he would go to prison. After all, this was his second conviction. This was in Texas. You don’t want to go to prison in Texas or Florida. [Laughing]

Jacobsen: No! The weather sucks.

Sakoda: No prison is truly humane, in my view, having visited various prisons in California. They’re particularly bad. In Florida, you can get in a chain gang, too. Do you know what a chain gang is?

Jacobsen: No.

Sakoda: They let the prisons go to highway labour. How old was that Paul Newman movie about that chain gang? There is a staple in the South. You won’t find them in the rest of the country. They might have programs. California has a program where you can be released to go and fight wildfires.

Jacobsen: I honestly don’t know what is worse: firefighting for free or being in prison.

Sakoda: At least you’re out. For many people, it is hard not to be outside.

Jacobsen: It is like the one man you’re saying about MeToo. He would probably be out fighting fires rather than being in prison, afraid of being sexually assaulted.

Sakoda: He was probably 400 or 500 pounds. They shouldn’t have him fighting fires.

Jacobsen: Structurally, it takes work.

Sakoda: Besides, in his first criminal trial, he came to his first criminal trial with an oxygen tank. This is a common tactic for abusers to show up on crutches in a wheelchair.

Jacobsen: It is to garner sympathy.

Sakoda: Yes, it was funny. He had just been to Colorado without oxygen. So, people accepted it. The second set of charges when they came down. In some ways, that was a turning point. That was when we got more credibility. The first charge, people said – my other favourite thing, is that “Father only plead guilty to prevent that victim from having to lie on the witness stand.” When you plead guilty, you must say I did this, did this, under oath. Is it better for him to lie? It is amazing how little people want to believe this happened. Orthodoxy is perfectly willing to believe it happened in the Catholic Church.

Jacobsen: It is a different frame on NIMBY. It happens not in my backyard, but not over here.

Sakoda: They will say the most, “They have those celibate priests.” Orthodox priests can be celibate, too. Some of them are abusers. All Orthodox bishops either have to be widowed. There have been bishops who put their wives in monasteries. They have to be unmarried, too. So, you do have celibate clergy portions in the Orthodox Church. But I think people have the idea that it is a choice. You have to decide if you are celibate or married before you are ordained, and you have a choice. But what happens to a priest whose wife dies? He cannot remarry in Orthodoxy and be a priest. So, it’s part of him being married or being a priest. He has a hard choice to make. But I think the main thing is that people equate celibate priests with abuse. Abuse is not about sex. It is about power and control. It is through the vehicle of sex. It makes it confusing for the victim.

Jacobsen: It goes back to the question about unquestioned power in that particular structure. If they have that transcendental status connecting to something divine, it is much harder to question it, especially if you have grown up or been imbued in it. It is much harder to question it.

Sakoda: A lot of the priests tell convincing lies. This is what God wants you to do. Sometimes, for girls, they’ll say, “God wants me to indoctrinate you to what it means to be a Christian wife,”  or something. It is one of those things where you must be in the situation. You have to be the child and realize everything that has happened before or the other tactic. It was Phil Saviano. He did the expose on the Catholic Church. He said, ‘The priest gave me a beer and gave me porn.’

Jacobsen: Ha!

Sakoda: ‘The next time, he wanted me to go further. I couldn’t say, ‘No,’ because I was compromised with the beer and the porn.’ That is the way children’s minds work.

Jacobsen: Yes, in some of these stories, the people regress. The way they talk. They cannot just tell this priest to “fuck off,” to put it colloquially.

Sakoda: I had one man come to my meetings. I do not know if he came more than once. I have support meetings for survivors. He said, “I am not sure I should be there,” because he was there when the priest tried to touch him. He punched him and ran away.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Sakoda: He goes, “I wasn’t abused,” but what happened was his trust in the institution died, whether the priest actually touched him or just tried to touch him, and he got punched. I try to tell people all the time. Even if you get away, many people freeze. Even if you froze or punched him, you would still feel that damage. “Oh my God, he is supposed to be a priest.” Particularly children, what do you do to protect yourself the next time? “It must be something I did. What do I do to change this situation?” You’re just in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong person. There’s probably nothing you can do, particularly for little kids. A grown man and a 6-year-old, that’s not even a fair fight.

Jacobsen: 18, 20, 25, they still have a lot of the development of having a feeling and standing in it. It can be much if you push them hard enough. It doesn’t take that much pushing. It takes a long time to get a backbone.

Sakoda: Especially to stand up to someone who you have been told is someone who represents God. I remember one survivor. He was abused as an adult. He was a seminarian. When the priest attacked him, he froze. He was shocked that a priest would be doing this. Afterwards, he had such self-blame and loathing because “Why didn’t I do something?” I think that’s hard. It is not just fight or flight. It is also fighting, fighting, freezing, freezing and complying. People tend to forget about that. That happens. It can set a pattern. That freeze and compliance can haunt you in similar situations for the rest of your life. You may revert to that response instead of doing something different. I think trauma is stored in a different part of the brain. It affects your behaviour in ways that you do not always realize. Someone told me. When their abuser had told them that if they spoke up, they would be killed, and when they spoke up, they were so terrified. The idea that the axe was coming. Even though their abuser was dead, it was terrifying to come forward because of what they had been told.

Jacobsen: The tools of religious indoctrination, from my view, are based on fear. A lot of it is reinforced by fear of death. “I would rather not think about the idea that I would stop existing and, therefore, I will exist eternally in some other transcendent dimension.”

Sakoda: So, “I have to do x, y, and z.” It is like the toll houses. “I have to do everything my spiritual father tells me, or I will be eternally damned.”

Jacobsen: The easiest presentation, I think it goes against… the philosophy on life is you’re a flame. Once you snuff the flame out, it doesn’t go anywhere. It just stops being. I think it is the same for us.

Sakoda: No one knows because no one has returned [Laughing].

Jacobsen: Right, people who believe in Uri Geller, who was shown as a fraud by James Randi on national television on Johnny Carson. Similar fakes and frauds, and so on, I am noticing the same phenomenon that you’re describing with individuals who come forward with the abuse. They have public cases. They have data up to 2020. They have news organizations cataloguing stuff like Hermina and Katherine. People, like the X Files, they want to believe.

Sakoda: They do. Part of it is that you want to go on with something bigger than yourself. That’s okay. What you cannot have is that my father ruined me. He said, “Melanie, you have a head to do more than decorate your shoulders.”

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Sakoda: He focused on thinking for himself and didn’t tell people what to do. I think there is that element of social conditioning. Where you are supposed to obey the teachers. You are supposed to obey the priests. It is basically, people don’t say, “What if the priest is a creep?” What do I do them? Sex abuse is pervasive in society. I think it would find it in the Church. I think they could do a lot more to make churches a safer place if people are going to go to them.

Jacobsen: It is probably a hard pill to swallow because it makes churches seem like every other institution, which is to say, human. There’s also the fact that the indoctrination starts so early. I agree with Hypatia. If you imbue someone sufficiently early, it is extremely hard for them to unravel not the moral stuff, the superstitions that are built up around this complex of theology and social life, community, and ritual, and the unquestionable authority of these priests and bishop figures.

Sakoda: Yet, some overcome it. I know the woman who runs Bishop Accountability, Ann Barrett Doyle. She was one of those that was raised Catholic. I remember reading something about her. That was when she was 14. Their priest was saying something. She thought it was ridiculous and stood up. So, as my father said, you have people who believe in using your head or your conscience and speaking up when you see something wrong. Being comfortable and having someone telling you what to do is more tempting. It is not your responsibility.

Jacobsen: That’s scary for some people.

Sakoda: It is scary the other way too.

Jacobsen: Sure.

Sakoda: So, if the elder asks you to kill someone, you say, “Yes, sure thing.”

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Sakoda: Then you go and do it. But you will go to Heaven because you obeyed your spiritual father. That, to me, is scary. I think it is a perversion of what religion is all about.

Jacobsen: Since you have given me so much of your precious time, m’lady.

Sakoda: [Laughing].

Jacobsen: I am going to ask one last question.

Sakoda: Is it a trick question? [Laughing]

Jacobsen: I am hoping not. If you could point people to individuals or resources they can go to for help if they’re coming out of the Orthodox tradition, who should they look into? What organizations can they get some help from? Also, for yourself or others doing this kind of work, here is my experience so far. It is – literally – women doing this work. How can they support them with their time, skills, volunteer efforts, and finances? What are the ways to help as well?

Sakoda: Regarding organizations such as SNAP, we have support groups for survivors. They follow the AA meeting model. Most people find them either as a supplement to therapy or some people use them instead of therapy. It is a way of meeting other survivors or going to a room where you say, “This happened to me when I was 6.” Instead of people turning the other way or saying, “You need to forgive and forget,” or whatever. People will say, “We understand.”

Jacobsen: #ChurchToo.

Sakoda: Yes. There is also, in this country, a group called RAINN, Rape Abuse Incest National Network. They have some of the same services that they offer. However, they do not specialize in religion or religious abuse. SNAP is the only one I know that does it. That has a mission to support survivors of abuse and religious institutions. Maybe this is not quite what you meant by this. I think what people can do to help support. If someone comes and confides in you, when I was 10, my priest raped me, or my pastor raped me or whatever.

Jacobsen: The severity, just hearing it, is a very… If you hear that sentence, pause and hear what they’re saying to you; they’re not lying to you, most likely.

Sakoda: What do they have to gain?

Jacobsen: Seriously.

Sakoda: What do you say? You say, “I am sorry. I am sorry that happened to you. What can I do to support you?” Maybe you cannot do a whole lot. Maybe this is their healing journey. If you accept what they say… I had one Orthodox survivor who was abused. When I started talking to him, it was automatic, “I am so sorry that happened to you.” He started crying. What can I say? I make men cry. He said, “No one has ever told me that before. That they were sorry for what happened to me.” It is like, that’s sad.

Jacobsen: That breaks the spell. I am stealing from a now-deceased philosopher, Daniel Dennett, who wrote a book called Breaking The Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon. What you do when you do that, socially, at least, for me, you break the spell. You break the spell for men by doing so.

Sakoda: Yes, that helps; as to what can help the advocates, if they’re involved with an organization, you can support it. As I said, we never get the support to take status as a non-profit. Maybe it will happen. I am not going to hold my breath. The Catholic Church, you’d think Orthodox people would think about SNAP. “That’s for Catholics.” It was funny. I sent one woman. She had been abused as an older teen. I think she was 19, and it was by an Orthodox priest. I said, “Why not try one meeting? What is it going to hurt?” She said, “Oh my God, they didn’t have a regular meeting.” This one had a play being performed at a community theatre or something. The group went to see and support him. She goes, “Oh my God, he was a man. I was a woman. He was Catholic. I was Orthodox. He was telling my story.”

I think that is what you find in the community. If you find another organization that does that, support them! Because it is to make people come forward earlier and earlier. If we have children coming forward, then they will have criminal convictions. Chances are: If it gets publicized by the police if others know, you will get the convictions and some of these people behind bars rather than behind the pulpit. The more you do that, the more people will be willing to believe it, too. There will still be a few religious zealots who never believe this whole thing about “He had hands laid on him!” There is some change in Catholicism, starting with an O that happens when you are ordained. The best response I ever gave someone, particularly the Orthodox Church, was, “The Church may be mystical. It is not magic. If someone is an abuser before they are ordained, they are going to be an abuser afterwards. It is not going to fix them automatically.”

Melanie Sakoda o nedoličnom ponašanju pravoslavnog svećenstva

Melanie Sakoda važna je osoba u katalogiziranju zločina  pravoslavne crkve. Što se događa u pravoslavlju?

Melanie Sakoda je direktorica podrške preživjelima Mreže preživjelih zlostavljanih od strane svećenika (SNAP), voditeljica SNAP-a East Bay i pravoslavna voditeljica SNAP-a. Ovdje dugo govorimo o pravoslavlju i zlostavljanju od strane svećenstva.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Danas smo ovdje s Melanie Sakoda. Ona je dugogodišnja – neki vole izraz aktivistica, neki kao netko tko radi za moralno ispravnu svrhu. Imali ste puno više vremena za osvrt na rad na ovoj temi. Moje prvo pitanje: Kako ste se prvobitno uključili u ovaj posao? Jer vi to radite desetljećima.

Melanie Sakoda: Imali smo incident u našoj crkvi u San Franciscu gdje je bio laik koji je bio zlostavljač djece s višestrukim osudama. Puštali su mu slobodu u našoj župi. Mnogo je djece ozlijeđeno, koliko znamo. To je počelo. Reakcija kada su se obitelji javile bila je takva reakcija. Pomislili smo: “O moj Bože, žalimo se na nekoga tko je bio pravoslavac samo dva tjedna prije posljednjeg uhićenja. Što ako se pokušavate žaliti na svećenika?” Dakle, odlučili smo da želimo pokrenuti web stranicu gdje bi ljudi imali neko mjesto na koje bi željeli doći, a ljudi bi mogli imati naklonost. Počeli smo u lipnju 1999. Skinuli smo ga u ožujku 2020.

Jacobsen: Otprilike 21 godinu internet je 1999. bio otprilike prevelik.

Sakoda: Ne.

Jacobsen: Ili je bio manji nego što je bio 2020. Kakva je bila reakcija 2020. u odnosu na 1999.? Koji je bio razlog skidanja?

Sakoda: Cappy (Larson), jedna od njezinih kćeri, napravila je izvorno kodiranje na izvornom mjestu. Zatim je odstupila. Bili smo Cappy i ja. Sada smo oboje u 70-ima. Čekali smo da vidimo nekoga kako će istupiti da nas preuzme.

Jacobsen: [Smije se].

Sakoda: Cappy kaže, “Možda bismo trebali dopustiti da im nedostajemo.” [smijeh]

Jacobsen: [Smije se].

Sakoda: Dakle, to je ono što smo učinili. Budući da uz održavanje web stranice postoje troškovi, sve smo troškove plaćali sami jer nam je trebala veća financijska potpora. Imali smo poštanski pretinac. Imali smo govornu poštu. Plaćali smo glavnu domenu, a zatim sigurnost. Kad god ljudi ne dobiju znak upozorenja kada posjete vašu stranicu, to je prilično skupo za ljude s fiksnim primanjima. Bilo je smiješno. Nekim su ljudima trebale godine da primjete da nas nema. Imam Facebook stranicu, barem u pravoslavnim crkvama. Imam ljude koji pišu s pitanjem: “Što se dogodilo s pokrov.org?”

Jacobsen: Ovo je uobičajeno. Smatram da je to uobičajeno kroz godine i godine obavljanja intervjua s ljudima koji su napustili vjerske grupe ili koji su još uvijek u njima, a imaju zabrinutosti i žele vidjeti da stvari postaju bolje, pravednije. Šačica je ljudi koji se bave određenim dijelovima aktivizma tijekom određenog vremena. Ti i Cappy ste primjeri toga. Dakle, i ti ljudi su izloženi raznim oblicima napada ili čak zlostavljanja. Dakle, s kojim vrstama ste se susreli? Koji su bili duhovitiji jer morate razviti smisao za humor u ovoj industriji? Koje su mogle biti duhovitije?

Sakoda: Najneduhovitiji je bila Cappyjeva kći, Greta, koja je još radila s nama. Namjeravali smo prisustvovati konferenciji u Dallasu pod nazivom Ortodoksni laici. Prvotno je Greta išla sama, a onda je primila prijetnje smrću od jednog svećenika čija je obitelj bila jako nezadovoljna što je on stavljen na našu stranicu. Na kraju sam otišao s njom. To je vjerojatno bilo najstrašnije. Jedna od najsmješnijih stvari… sjećate li se kada je ta djevojka nestala u Arubi prije mnogo godina?

Jacobsen: Nekoliko ljudi je možda nestalo, uključujući Arubu.

Šakoda: Bio je to veliki slučaj. Bila je mlada, studentica, plavooka plavokosa djevojka koja je nestala. Nekada smo objavljivali na pravoslavnim oglasnim pločama.

Jacobsen: Natalee Ann Holloway?

Sakoda: Da. Ovaj svećenik stavlja na jednu od ovih oglasnih ploča. Možda ga imam u svom smeću. “Cappy, i ti bi trebao biti Aruba’d.” Koliko neprikladno za osobu?

Jacobsen: Zvuči kao da si magarac.

Sakoda: Ali što je smiješno, kako su godine prolazile, reakcija je isprva bila vrlo, vrlo neprijateljska. Kako su godine prolazile, postajalo je sve manje neprijateljski. Ljudi bi nam slali stvari jer su znali da ćemo nešto učiniti s tim ili pokušati učiniti nešto s tim.

Jacobsen: Vi ste u sigurnoj zoni.

Sakoda: Bilo je to zanimljivo iskustvo. ne kajem se. Želim dobiti na lutriji, izgraditi stranicu i zaposliti ljude da rade na njoj. Vidjet ćemo što će se dogoditi. Govorim ljudima na svojoj Facebook stranici. Još uvijek imam pristup većini informacija. Mogao bih dobiti informacije ako žele informacije o nekome koga su vidjeli na stranici. Uz moj pristup staroj web stranici, nažalost imam previše tiskanih datoteka jer, naravno, kad sam išao na pravni fakultet. Sve je bilo papirnato. Imao sam tendenciju držati stvari na papiru, a ne na računalu. Imam računalne datoteke.

Jacobsen: Iznenađen sam što niste imali ništa na mikrofišu.

Sakoda: [Smije se].

Jacobsen: Da, znam, mikrofiš.

Sakoda: Baš sam htio reći. Prilično je pristojno. Imam stvari na papiru. Kad smo suprug i ja smanjili broj zaposlenih 2018., imali smo ogroman ured sa svim tim policama za knjige. Ovo više nemam. Imam puno datoteka u kutijama [Smijeh].

Jacobsen: Da [smije se].

Sakoda: Nedavno me netko pitao za ovu jednu grupu. Kunem se da imam još nešto. Ne mogu pronaći tiskanu datoteku.

Jacobsen: Pretraživanje po ključnim riječima na tiskanoj datoteci je teško. Koje aspekte pravde ste dosegli za ljude koji su vam se proširili? Je li bilo ičega na tom planu pomoći ili je to bio siguran prostor gdje ljudi mogu sigurno dobiti informacije i to je bilo pozitivno za njih?

Sakoda: Kad smo počeli, kao što ste spomenuli, 1999. bili su rani dani interneta. Cappy bi zvao ljude.

Jacobsen: Ovo je s domaće linije. Nema mobitela.

Sakoda: Mogli su biti mobiteli. Kada su počeli?

Ne sviđaju vam se oglasi? Postanite podržavatelj i uživajte u The Good Men Projectu bez oglasa

Jacobsen: Ne znam ni ja. Oh! Prvi je došao 1983. Dakle, možda je imala mobitel.

Sakoda: Sigurna sam da je bilo s njenog fiksnog telefona.

Jacobsen: Kao rotirajući telefon ili tako nešto.

Sakoda: U župi je bio jedan zlostavljač. On je bio dio ove grupe koja je došla u pravoslavlje. Izvorno su bili New Age kult iz San Francisca pod nazivom The Holy Order of Man. Nakon Jonestowna, nisu voljeli biti na kultnim listama. Pa su počeli tražiti drugo mjesto za slijetanje. Mnogi od njih počeli su pristupati pravoslavnim crkvama. Preko jedne od drugih Cappyjevih kćeri, pronašli smo nekog tipa koji je bio iz Svetog Reda Čovjeka, koji je rekao da je pravoslavac kod kojeg su išli bio dio ove kultne skupine i da je bio grčki pravoslavac. Bio je uznemiren kad su otišli s tim mitropolitom Pangratiosom Vrionisom iz nadbiskupije Vasiloupolisa. Zato što je rekao: “On je zlostavljač. On je osuđen.” Našli smo ovu sitnicu na nekom pravoslavnom forumu na internetu. Potrebna vam je pomoć da potražite ove informacije na internetu. Sve naše informacije bile su iz Pennsylvanije i razlikovale su se od okruga ili bilo čega. Dakle, Cappy je počeo zvati svaki okrug i tražiti. “Imate li kazneni dosje za ovu cifru?” Koliko teško može biti? Pangratios Vrionis, to nije ime…

Jacobsen: …vrlo rijetko, čak i za Grke!

Sakoda: Napokon ga je našla. Službenik u zgradi suda bio je vrlo suosjećajan. Ne bih ti ovo trebao reći. Ne samo da nam je poslala zapise bez da nam je naplatila, nego je otišla – i poput mene – pogledala u arhive. Imala je stvari u kutijama. Pronašla je još nekoliko stranica. Sve nam ih je poslala besplatno. To je bio jedan od prvih slučajeva koje smo objavili na našoj web stranici, a to je bio Pangratios Vrionis. Nakon što je izašlo u javnost da je imao takvo uvjerenje, još uvijek je djelovao kao biskup u Queensu, New York.

Jacobsen: To je, vjerojatno, velika biskupija.

Sakoda: Da. Javile su se novije žrtve.

Jacobsen: Naravno.

Šakoda: Drugi put je osuđen. To je bio naš prvi pothvat u tome. Izvorno smo radili puno toga. Cappy telefonira i razgovara sa službenicima u raznim županijama diljem zemlje. Ali kako je vrijeme prolazilo, kao što sam rekao, ljudi bi nam počeli slati stvari. Rekli bi: “Taj i taj je osuđen; ovdje je poveznica na članak.” Možda, jer je to pokupio i internet. Postoje neke županije u kojima možete potražiti evidenciju na internetu, ali ne onoliko koliko bih ja želio. Postalo je lakše pronaći informacije.

Jacobsen: Želim pretražiti ovu jednu stvar za ovo pitanje. Nacionalni centar za informacije o seksualnom nasilju (NSVRC), “ Jedna od pet žena i jedan od 71 muškarca bit će silovani u nekom trenutku svog života… U osam od 10 slučajeva silovanja, žrtva je poznavala osobu koja ju je seksualno napastovala. ” Dakle, to su brojke koje označavaju ekstremne oblike seksualnog nasilja. Obje ih doživljavaju prirodno, iako ih žene često doživljavaju od muškaraca i muškaraca koje poznaju. Dakle, ako su to stope u SAD-u, kakve su stope u Crkvi? Jesu li isti ili su viši? Ako su viši, koja je svrha Crkve kao moralne važnosti za živote tih ljudi?

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Sakoda: Problem je u tome što, kao što sam spomenuo kad smo ranije razgovarali, nema prave pouzdane statistike zlostavljanja u pravoslavnim crkvama. Od 2002. Katolička crkva objavljuje popise zlostavljača po biskupiji. Postoji izvješće Johna Jaya. Ne postoji, koliko mi je poznato, niti jedna pravoslavna jurisdikcija u ovoj zemlji koja objavljuje podatke o svojim zlostavljačima. Najbliže što smo došli bila je Grčka pravoslavna nadbiskupija jedno vrijeme.

Vidjet ćete da je svećenik uklonjen, ali ne znate zašto. Je li odlučio da više ne želi biti svećenik? Je li pronevjeravao? Ili je seksualno zlostavljao nekoga u svojoj župi, bilo muškarca, ženu ili dijete? Oni to ne objavljuju. Na vrlo kratko vrijeme , Grci su se zamrznuli ili suspendirali. Ako je netko razriješen dužnosti ili suspendiran, to bi moglo imati veze s nagodbom u grčkom slučaju. Taj netko bio je jedan od njihovih nenovčanih zahtjeva. Trajalo je samo kratko vrijeme. ti ne znaš Možete ga pratiti. Još jedna stvar vezana za pravoslavne predmete je da katolici imaju službeni katolički imenik. Izlazi svake godine. To je golema knjiga. Navodi sve svećenike u SAD-u i njihove zadatke. Pravoslavci nemaju tu vrstu resursa za praćenje ljudi. Dakle, da ste vidjeli film u središtu pozornosti, sjetili biste se., Oni traže praznine.

Ljudi su često na ‘odsustvu’ ili ‘liječenju’. Mi taj resurs nemamo. Imam mnogo imenika. Sada je vjerojatnije da su na mreži. Upravo sam preuzeo kopiju i stavio je na svoje preopterećeno računalo. Doista je teško pronaći podatke o pravoslavnim slučajevima. Oni su ispod radara. Jeste li upoznati s pitanjem kalendara? Neke od pravoslavnih crkava koriste drugačiji kalendar od drugih. Što je to, Papa, Papa Grgur uveo je kalendar kako bi počeo dodavati prijestupne godine jer su shvatili.

Jacobsen: Oh! Ukrao je to od Dioniza Exiguusa. Svjestan sam toga.

Sakoda: Dobro, neke pravoslavne crkve će slaviti Božić 7. siječnja. Nalaze se na onome što je poznato kao Julijanski kalendar, ali to je modificirani Julijanski kalendar jer uključuje prijestupnu godinu. Dakle, vjerovali ili ne, ovo je veliki problem u pravoslavlju, posebno u ovoj zemlji. Kad imate zlostavljače, “Odlučio sam da kalendar nije tamo gdje jest. Zaključio sam da je novi kalendar razlog svih problema u pravoslavlju. Zlostavljači su to koristili kao ispriku zašto su prelazili iz jedne Crkve u drugu.

Jacobsen: Kalendar.

Sakoda: Da. Postoji taj vic. “Koliko se pravoslavaca mijenja na žarulju?”

Jacobsen: Koliko?

Sakoda: “Što? Promijeniti? Ne.”

Jacobsen: Tako je. Zato se muškarci ne briju. Na pitanje zašto muškarci puštaju tako duge brade, sjećam se smiješnog odgovora. On odgovara: “Više bi me zanimalo obrnuto. Zašto su se muškarci počeli brijati?” Ja ću im dati taj.

Sakoda: Smiješno je. Neki od ultrakonzervativizma u pravoslavlju nisu novi. Sjećam se svoje bake; Ne mogu se sjetiti je li se radilo o nošenju šala u crkvi ili o nošenju odijela s hlačama u crkvu. Moja baka je odgovorila: “Naravno, u crkvi nosim odijelo s hlačama. Što misliš, što je ovo, stari kraj?” [Smijeh] Moji djed i baka bili su imigranti, kao i moja majka. Došli su iz drugog svijeta. Neke od ovih stvari, ne znam jeste li naišli na druge smiješne stvari. To se zove naplatna kuća. Jeste li čuli za naplatne kuće?

Jacobsen: Ne.

Sakoda: Nemaju veze s kolačićima. Teorija je da kad umreš. Krist vam ne sudi. Prolazite kroz ovaj niz naplatnih kuća. Gdje vam đavo sudi, postalo je popularno u konzervativnijim krugovima. Otac Serafim Rose bio je u toj teologiji. Problem je što se koristi. Najbolje bi bilo da imaš duhovnog oca. Morate učiniti ono što vam vaš duhovni otac kaže da biste prošli kroz naplatne kuće. Imao sam jednog čovjeka koji mi je rekao. “U redu, ako ti tvoj duhovnik kaže da ubiješ nekoga, bi li?” Rekao je: “Da.”

Jacobsen: Čekaj. Duhovnik ima veći autoritet od Dekaloga.

Sakoda: Da, osim svega, tvoja savjest, Biblija.

Jacobsen: To je pomalo problematično.

Sakoda: Vrlo je problematično. Neke od tih grupa su se gomilale. Imali su skladišta oružja.

Jacobsen: Kao AK47 i granate?

Sakoda: Da.

Jacobsen: Što?

Sakoda: Zato što se spremaju na kraj dana.

Jacobsen: Naravno, trebate municiju i oružje za demone. Vjerojatno su previše  gledali Constantinea ili tako nešto.

Sakoda: Za mene je to bio drugi svijet. Ono što sam počeo reći, pričao sam o tome očevoj najmlađoj sestri. Cijeli život je pravoslavna. Ona kaže: “Nikad nisam čula za naplatne kuće.” [Smijeh] Jer ljudi nisu dobro upućeni u svoju religiju. Netko dolazi s ovom snježnobijelom bradom i predstavlja se kao starješina.

Jacobsen: Izgleda kao Jehova u ilustriranoj Bibliji ili tako nešto.

Sakoda: Jedan čovjek mi je jednom rekao da je bio negdje u Grčkoj. Upoznao je ovu ženu. Imali su kratku vezu. Sljedećeg dana, otišao je do ovog starješine. Starješina mu je točno ispričao što je učinio prethodne noći. Dakle, to mora značiti da je stariji bio vidovit. rekao sam mu. “Ili da je starješina poslao ženu k vama, što je vjerojatno vjerojatnije.” Ideja je da vam starješina kaže da upoznate tog čovjeka i spavate s njim. Ti to učini. Inače nećete proći kroz naplatne kućice.

Jacobsen: To je neupitni autoritet. Bit će drugačije po zajednici. Ali taj temelj neupitnog autoriteta je temeljni problem.

Sakoda: Bio sam iznenađen. Novac za te samostane navodno je dolazio od ruske mafije.

Jacobsen: Ha!

Šakoda: Imam mnogo informacija o tim optužbama i zašto su oni mislili da jesu. Ideja je, pogotovo sada, s Putinom i invazijom na Ukrajinu. To je ruski novac. Navodno postoje samostani s oružjem. Nemam nikakva saznanja iz prve ruke o tome jer ne bih nogom kročio u te samostane (smijeh). Morate nositi stolnjak na glavi ako ste žena.

Jacobsen: Stvar s oružjem u crkvama je, ironično, američka.

Sakoda: Da [smije se].

Jacobsen: Stolnjak na glavi, to je više – ne znam – fundamentalistički islam ili rubne kršćanske skupine u Sjedinjenim Državama.

Sakoda: To postaje sve više i više unutar pravoslavlja. Kao što vidite sve više i više obraćenika koji pristupaju pravoslavlju, oni su benigno dovedeni od strane ovih grupa. Moje su tete cijelo vrijeme provodile u Crkvi. “Ne znaju o čemu govore.” Šeširi, možda, i pokrivala za glavu nisu bili obavezni kad sam odrastao. Moram priznati. U 50-ima smo nosili šešire kad smo išli u crkvu. Ne u smislu da morate pokriti kosu ili nešto slično. Vidite djevojčice koje moraju imati suknje do gležnja s ovim velikim pokrivalima za glavu. Po meni, tu nešto nije u redu. Kao jedna žena s kojom sam radio, bila je svećenikova žena. Doktorirala je radeći na području seksualnog zlostavljanja svećenika. Ona kaže: “Kad počnete razmišljati o tome, što to govori ljudima? Djeca su seksualni objekti.” Mislila je da je to uvredljivo. Na nekim mjestima kupaće kostime možete nabaviti od menonita ili bilo čega drugog [smijeh].

Jacobsen: Vjerojatno bolji od Mormona; imaju donje rublje koje pokriva cijelo tijelo za koje misle da te može zaštititi od metaka. Ako radi, to je sjajno, ali nazovite me skeptičnim!

Sakoda: Sva bi ih djeca trebala imati (smijeh).

Jacobsen: Pogotovo ako idete u rusku pravoslavnu crkvu [smijeh] ili američku crkvu.

Sakoda: Pravoslavlje se promijenilo od mog djetinjstva. Nije se promijenilo na bolje.

Jacobsen: Je li se ključno pitanje zlostavljanja značajno promijenilo osim činjenice da izlazi sve više na vidjelo?

Šakoda: Mislim da se nije promijenilo. Mislim da je bilo tužno kad smo prvi put počeli razgovarati o tome što se dogodilo u našoj Crkvi i počeli razgovarati sa svećenicima kojima sam vjerovao/divio se; svi su govorili: “Zlostavljanje je nepoznato u pravoslavnoj crkvi.”

Jacobsen: Ha! Da, vidio sam neke nejasne komentare nekih pravoslavnih svećenika o tome, gdje su više-manje govorili: “Gledajte, to se uopće ili ne događa u našoj Crkvi. Bez obzira na to, mi nismo katolici, a pogledajte ih.” To je argument. To je podmukao i odvratan argument ako je to vaš standard.

Šakoda: Uzeo sam papir. Pravoslavna crkva Amerike je imala svoju godišnju ili dvogodišnju konferenciju. Nisam se registrirao. otišao sam. Izdao sam svoje knjige. Dok su ljudi ulazili na konferenciju, dijelio sam svoju subverzivnu literaturu.

Jacobsen: Izvrsno, tako treba, dobar posao, cijenimo vas.

Sakoda: Smiješno je to što je ovo, opet, bila jedna od onih stvari zbog kojih se činilo da Cappy traži osudu za Pangratiosa. Boja koju sam odabrao za svoje male knjižice bila je ista kao i liturgija za konferenciju [Smijeh].

Jacobsen: Lijepo.

Sakoda: Ljudi su ih grabili, misleći da su liturgijske knjige.

Jacobsen: Ne!

Šakoda: Otvarali su ih.

Jacobsen: Iznenađenje.

Sakoda: Iznenađenje! Ne sjećam se jesam li saznao kako ga je dobio. Dobio sam ovu čestitku od ovog čovjeka koji govori o tome da mu je kćer zlostavljao pravoslavni svećenik. Bilo je to negdje u okolici Chicaga. O tome je govorio neistinu. To, da, događa se. Ne govore o tome. Ili to prikrivaju. Bio je slučaj iz 1800-ih koji je bio u novinama o pravoslavnom svećeniku koji je nekoga zlostavljao.

Jacobsen: Možete li mi to poslati?

Sakoda: Mogao bih kad bih mogao pronaći, Scott (smijeh).

Jacobsen: To nije mali projekt. Ovakve stvari. Treba vremena.

Šakoda: Imam ormar pun papira četiri velike kutije. Kao što sam rekao, imam sklonost čuvanju stvari, ne skeniranju i stavljanju na svoje računalo. Ali to je bio problem. Ako ne govorite o problemu, ne možete ga riješiti. To je moj problem. Ako želite da ljudi ostanu u Crkvi, morate služiti povrijeđenima – izravnim žrtvama i članovima njihovih obitelji. Mnogi članovi obitelji odlaze i nakon ovakvog incidenta.

Jacobsen: Ili se obrate ili prestanu vjerovati.

Sakoda: Ako je Crkva luk spasenja, onda biste trebali uključiti sve. Pomoglo bi kad ne biste odbili ljude koji su bili ozlijeđeni. Veliki je šok kad pomisle: “Mi smo oštećena strana. Stigli smo do Crkve. Očekujemo da ćemo biti zagrljeni. ‘Jako mi je žao. Što možemo učiniti za vas?’” To se ne događa. Ne sjećam se da je žrtva to rekla. Mogli bi biti oni koji to rade, nemojte me kontaktirati. To se ne događa. Dio toga može biti potreba za dodatnim obrazovanjem. Što radite kada netko dođe i to vam kaže? Kakav bi trebao biti odgovor?

Jacobsen: Neke od najnovijih kanadskih oružanih snaga. U podacima za 2022. objavljenim 5. prosinca 2023. većina pripadnika Kanadskih oružanih snaga ne misli da je to nešto što oni rade; to je stil života s ugovorom koji potpisuju. Više od polovice pripadnika kanadskih oružanih snaga time se bavi ili neformalno – to je druga kategorija, a oni koji podnesu izvješće smatraju da će se nešto učiniti ili da će se učiniti više. Dakle, pomoglo bi da imate te priče. Dakle, čak i samoizabrane skupine koje izvještavaju o tome su skupine koje se više nadaju; drugi skupovi to ne prijavljuju: Nose se time sami ili među svojom obitelji. Oni odlaze. Neki to pokušavaju pomiriti sa svojom vjerom, Bogom ili religijom. Pretpostavljam da je to vrlo teško provući liniju.

Sakoda: Da, jer, mislim, jedna od nesretnih stvari, obično, kada idete u crkvu ili kršćansku crkvu, “trebate oprostiti i zaboraviti.”

Jacobsen: To je otrovno.

Sakoda: Nije to kako se zlostavljanje manifestira u životima ljudi. Mogli biste razmišljati: “Izbacio sam iz glave svog zlostavljača.” Možda dijete napuni vaše godine kada ste bili zlostavljani; onda ga vraća natrag. Za preživjele, to je više tobogan gore-dolje. Što u tom slučaju znači oprostiti? Moja najbolja definicija je da ne razmišljate o ovome, da ne zadržavate sav ovaj bijes i tjeskobu. Nastavljate sa svojim životom.

Jacobsen: Točno, integrirano je.

Sakoda: Što ti je bilo, to je bilo; neće se promijeniti.

Jacobsen: Taj dio se ne može promijeniti i najteže ga je prihvatiti.

Sakoda: Da, imam puno pravoslavnih svećenika koji su mi govorili ružne stvari. Jedan me optužio da ako to kažeš ljudima, to će ih oštetiti. Rekao sam: “Ne, ako imate dijete koje doživi prometnu nesreću i izgubi nogu, može li to dijete nastaviti i imati sretan život? Naravno. Hoće li ikada dobiti drugu nogu? Ne.” Seksualno zlostavljanje je ista stvar. To je trajna ozljeda. Dakle, ono što želite je da lijepo zacijeli s ožiljkom, a ne da bude stalni apsces.

Jacobsen: Što su vam još rekli?

Sakoda: Naš omiljeni, ovo je još jedan smiješan.

Jacobsen: Ovo je smisao rada za one koji ovo čitaju. Dugoročno ćete uspjeti samo ako imate smisla za humor.

Sakoda: Ne, smiješ se stvarima koje nisu smiješne, ali se stalno smiješ stvarima. Što je alternativa – stalno biti ljut i plakati? Svećenik je rekao da smo Cappy i ja očite lezbijke.

Jacobsen: [Smije se].

Sakoda: Nazvao sam Cappyja i pitao: “Jesi li vidio ovo? Trebamo li reći našim muževima?” [smijeh]

Jacobsen: [Smije se].

Šakoda: Ove godine sam u braku 49 godina. Duže je u braku. To je kao, “Bože, trebamo li reći Gregu i Robertu?” Bilo što ili smo bili ljuti.

Jacobsen: Da, mnogi ateisti to shvaćaju kada kritiziraju vjersku nepravdu. To je isto kao i govoriti u Crkvi.

Sakoda: Moj omiljeni odgovor je bio: “Zašto se ne ljutiš što su djeca trajno ozlijeđena u ime Boga?”

Jacobsen: Trebate li se ljutiti na mene?

Sakoda: Da, zar se ne treba ljutiti na mene? Ne morate bacati kamenje ili uzeti te mitraljeze.

Jacobsen: Prihvaćam ljutnju, ali ne nužno u njenim očiglednim oblicima vila, baklji, kamenja i pušaka. To je dugotrajno sagorijevanje pisanja pisama, kampanja, podnošenja izvješća, priopćenja za javnost, intervjuiranja i prikupljanja baza podataka.

Sakoda: Ako hoćeš da pogledaš, kako sam i ja nekome rekao, Krist je mjenjačima uzeo bičeve i istjerao ih iz hrama. Postoji presedan za nešto ljutnje. Zatim dobijete odgovor. “Što? Misliš li da si Krist?”

Jacobsen: Ne bi li on trebao biti primjer ovim ljudima?

Sakoda: To je primjer. Pokazuje vam da postoji vrijeme i mjesto. Moj stric, pravoslavni svećenik, bio je najmlađi brat mog oca. Ovo mi je došlo kroz zamršen proces u koji neću ulaziti. Jednom je rekao ženi koja se borila. Otišla je kod njega na ispovijed. Rođakinja je zlostavljala njezinu djecu. Rekla je: “Ne mogu im oprostiti ono što su učinili.” Moj ujak joj je rekao: “Krist nastavlja svoju službu i govori: ‘Grijesi su ti oprošteni. Tvoji grijesi su oprošteni. Tvoji su grijesi oprošteni.” Ona kaže, “Što je rekao na križu? ‘Oče, oprosti mi’” Rekao je, “Nemoj pokušavati biti bolji od Krista.” Iz bilo kojeg razloga, oslobodio je njezin teret. Rekla je da radi najbolje što može i da im ne mora oprostiti. Trebala bi reći: “Bože, to ovisi o tebi.” Za mnoge preživjele, osobito one koji se bore hoće li ostati dijelom Crkve ili ne, to je vrlo značajna misao. “Ne moram grliti svog zlostavljača.” Mogu oprati ruke od njih.

Jacobsen: Naši umovi rade samo na pamćenju važnih informacija. Trauma je vrlo bitna da osoba izbjegne tu situaciju ponovno. Zato je trauma i jako se pamti. Fraza koju ste rekli o oprostiti i zaboraviti ne odgovara našem kognitivnom sustavu, ali djeluje: Oprosti i ne zaboravi je ključ.

Sakoda: Nemoj oprostiti, ali svejedno živi sretan život.

Jacobsen: Na osobi je hoće li oprostiti. Nije do zajednice, svećenika ili bilo koga drugoga. Za neke ljude opraštanje nije pravi izbor.

Sakoda: Ako pogledate, kao što sam rekao, za ljude koji još uvijek pokušavaju biti unutar religije, ako je ideja da vam grijesi neće biti oprošteni, to je strah. “Kako da to učinim? Neka sam proklet jer ne mogu oprostiti.” Zato sam rekao ono što je moj ujak rekao ovoj ženi. To joj je pružalo veliku utjehu jer nije bio zahtjevan. Nije rekao: “Kako strašno, ideš u pakao ako svom rođaku ne oprostiš što je seksualno zlostavljao tvoju djecu.” Rekao je: “Neka Bog to sredi.” Idi i živi svoj život. Mislim da to ionako nije lako učiniti. Teže je učiniti ako ste još uvijek zarobljeni u ovoj ideji. “O moj Bože, proklet sam sam sebe ako ovo ne mogu.”

Jacobsen: Nakon 2020., kakve su novosti o ovakvim slučajevima za Pravoslavnu Crkvu? Radit ću na analizi materijala koje su mi dale Hermina i Katherine. To je kronologija iz godine u godinu onoga što su do sada napravili, sažimajući i udahnjujući novi život tim popularnim ili nepopularnim izvješćima.

Sakoda: [Smije se].

Jacobsen: Pokriva malo. Nema pravnu snagu. Potrebni su ljudi poput tebe, Hermine, Katherine, Lucy i drugih da bi se stvari dogodile. Ja sam ništa. Svi ljudi za koje znam da rade na ovome u vezi s pravoslavnom tradicijom su žene koje imaju otprilike 40 godina i više.

Sakoda: I gore i gore! [Smijeh].

Jacobsen: Točno, dakle, što je to sa ženama u tim zajednicama i time što su u drugoj polovici života, statistički gledano, što stavlja tu demografiju u poziciju da govori o tim temama tijekom dugog razdoblja i da uloži naporan rad da radi statističke analize, dobiva podatke, dobiva priče i predstavlja resurs za ljude?

Sakoda: Dio toga, religija je ionako uvijek bila više žensko područje. Kad imate zajednicu, pravoslavnu i katoličku, nemate sveštenice. Nemate više ni žena đakona. Mada, postoji oživljavanje toga u pravoslavnim crkvama. Dakle, to je stvar usmjerena na čovjeka.

Jacobsen: Istina.

Sakoda: Mislim da muškarci i žene malo drugačije reagiraju na traumu. Dio toga bi također mogao biti. Sjećam se MeToo pokreta, koji je započeo ili eksplodirao, i bilo je svih tih stvari o ženama koje objavljuju MeToo i govore o tome što rade da bi se zaštitile. Bio je jedan čovjek zbunjen. Objavio je: “Što radite da biste izbjegli seksualni napad?” On kaže: “Klonite se zatvora.”

Jacobsen: [Smije se].

Sakoda: Žene su stalno izložene napadima ili nepoželjnim dodirima. Mislim da im daje simpatičniju perspektivu kada netko dođe i kaže: “Ovo mi se dogodilo.” Možda će vjerojatnije vjerovati da se to dogodilo vama jer se dogodilo njima. Mislim da ne biste mogli komunicirati s odraslom ženom koja nije bila napadnuta na bilo koji način. U vlaku ste ili autobusu i netko vas zgrabi za guzicu. Muškarci to ne doživljavaju tako često. Ne svi muškarci, ali možda je to varijabla.

Jacobsen: Doživio sam nešto od toga. Radio sam u nižerazrednom pubu.

Sakoda: [Smije se].

Jacobsen: Radio sam u stražnjem dijelu kuće, ponekad u prednjem dijelu. Radio sam u četiri restorana istovremeno i radio sam za dva od njih preko noći, sedam dana u tjednu. Sjećam se jednog barmena. Tražila bi od mene da posegnem za nečim i uhvatila bi se za trbuh, guzicu. To uznemiravanje nije traženo (smijeh). Mislim, iz onoga što čitam i što sam čula i što mi je rečeno, da to nije ni približno tako rašireno kao što je bilo za mnoge žene.

Sakoda: Mislim da mnogim muškarcima to ne pomaže, pogotovo ako ih je muškarac napao. Ideja je: “Zašto ga nisi odbio?” Dobiješ malo toga kao žena. Kao žena, često ćete dobiti, “Što si imala na sebi?”

Jacobsen: Isti ton iu pitanju. primjećujem. “Zašto ga nisi odbio?” je “Što si imao na sebi?” Što ste učinili da ovo prizovete na sebe?

Sakoda: Iskreno, ako sam dobrotvoran, samozaštita ljudi. Ako se može dogoditi tebi, može se dogoditi i meni. Stoga ste sigurno učinili nešto da to navučete na sebe. Inače se može dogoditi i meni.

Jacobsen: pitanje će pretpostaviti mušku snagu i samoobranu u pogledu agresije. Što se tiče žena, tu dobivam dva boda. S jedne strane, što nosiš? Moć mnogih žena u društvu povezana je s njihovom ljepotom. To je ono što je dodijeljeno. S druge strane, njihov odnos jedni prema drugima u smislu pričanja njihovih priča je relacijski. To je vidjeti tu priču u drugoj osobi.

Šakoda: Ono drugo, nešto što si rekao. Moj književni klub jednom je pročitao ovu knjigu Deborah Tannen, You Don’t Understand . Ona je lingvistica. Ona kaže da muškarci i žene govore različitim jezicima. Stavlja je na muškarce, izvorno lovce, i žene, sakupljačice. Dakle, ljudi, morali ste imati nekoga tko bi bio glavni. Morali ste imati hijerarhiju. Učinio si što ti je rečeno. Nisi pričao o tome. Rekao si, “Idi ti tamo. Ti idi tamo. To je ono što ćemo učiniti.” Žene bi provodile cijeli dan pričajući i skupljajući stvari. Dakle, žene razgovaraju kako bi stvorile međusobne odnose. Muškarci govore kako bi prenijeli informacije.

Jacobsen: Kao opća tendencija, kada se muškarci međusobno povezuju, zamislite ih kako sjede za kladom i govore paralelno, ne gledajući se. Žene, to je licem u lice.

Sakoda: Što kažete na to? [Smijeh] Sviđa mi se to. Sve smo pokušavale natjerati svoje muževe da pročitaju knjigu. Najgori je bio moj muž jer je bio zbunjen kad sam mu ispričala tu teoriju; on je pametan. Otišao je na Yale. On kaže: “Ne razumijem. Imamo odnos. Ti si moja žena.” Nije baš ono o čemu govorim u vezi s vezom. Čak i unutar SNAP-a, žene vođe razgovaraju jedna s drugom. Znamo što se jedno drugome događa u životima.

Jacobsen: “Kako si? Cindy se vratila s pogreba i jako joj je teško. Kathryn i njezina djeca su dobro. Jedan je upravo ušao u tešku poslovnu školu, a drugi je bolestan.” [Smijeh] Ove stvari.

Sakoda: To gradi odnose umjesto da netko glavni odlučuje, a tu je i redoslijed izbora. Žene mogu biti zlobne. Nemojte me krivo shvatiti, posebno tinejdžerice.

Jacobsen: Slažem se s Margaret Atwood. Ne mislim da su žene anđeli ili demoni.

Sakoda: Imaju drugačiji način međusobnog odnosa od muškaraca. To primjećujete u braku, odlascima u klub knjiga, jer niste na istoj valnoj duljini. Žene žele razgovarati o nečemu što će se dogoditi. Muškarci kažu: “Što želiš da učinim?”

Jacobsen: prenosi podatke za akciju umjesto izgradnje naracije za održavanje odnosa.

Sakoda: Da, to bi moglo učiniti žene suosjećajnijima za preživjele koji se javljaju. Pokušavaju se povezati s njima. Ne mislim da većina žena postane žena a da usput ne doživi neki seksualni napad.

Jacobsen: Možete li to ponoviti? To je vrlo moćna fraza.

Sakoda: Ne mislim da neke žene nisu bile seksualno zlostavljane, ako ćemo iskreno. Možda ne razmišljaju o tome. Netko te pipka u autobusu i okreće se i ne zna tko je to učinio. To je samo životna činjenica. Žene rade stvari. Moj muž je bio iznenađen. Rekao sam da većina žena parkira svoje automobile. Parkiraju ispod uličnog svjetla. Nose ključeve u rukama da nekome oči iskopaju. Kad navečer otvorim vrata auta, ako sam sam, prvo provjerim na stražnjem sjedalu.

Jacobsen: Ovaj posljednji bi mogao biti utjecaj Hollywooda.

Sakoda: To je nešto što ste pročitali. Ženski časopisi govore o svašta. Moj muž je rekao: “Gledaš li na stražnje sjedalo?” Rekao sam, “Da.” Moglo bi biti u poklopcu motora i iskočiti. [smijeh]

Jacobsen: [smijeh]

Sakoda: Ili ako, ponekad, žene čekaju lift i tip vam daje jezivu vibru, vi se pretvarate, “Zaboravio sam. Samo naprijed,” jer ne želiš vožnju s njim. Jedna od knjiga koju sam pročitao u proteklih nekoliko godina je Gavin de Becker. Zove se Dar straha . Imao je i drugu knjigu. Žene se uče da budu pristojnije. Moja kći se žali. Muškarci uvijek prekidaju žene.

Jacobsen: Istina. Ja to radim!

Sakoda: [Smije se] Ali oni čak i ne razmišljaju o tome, prekidaju. U svakom slučaju, žene koje bi trebale biti pristojne trebale bi to prihvatiti. Kad vas prekidaju, ne govorite ništa. Kažete: “Umiri se.” To je jedna od stvari. Možda je to razlog zašto su žene više izložene napadima jer pokušavaju biti pristojne. Oni ignoriraju. To je čekanje dizala, preplašiti se i ući u dizalo s njim jer ne želiš misliti da te preplašio [Smijeh]. Važno je. Ponekad, u crkvenim situacijama, ljudi ovo ignoriraju: mogli bi vidjeti svećenika ili učitelja kako grli dijete. Prožimat će njihov osjećaj pauka. Ali oni neće učiniti ništa po tom pitanju, osobito u crkvenim situacijama. “Imam tako prljav um da mislim da bi otac mogao imati nešto zlo na umu kad grli ovo dijete.” To je poput: “Ne, iz bilo kojeg razloga, imamo takve osjećaje. Moramo obratiti pozornost na njih.”

Jacobsen: Je li vjerojatno većina svećenika koji su zlostavljali do sada nikada nisu došli pred lice pravde? Oni koji su bili zlostavljani ostali su na vlasti ili su unaprijeđeni.

Sakoda: Da. Kao što rekoh, nemam tako dobar okvir za pravoslavne jer nema tako dobrog okvira. Ljudi su me znali pitati: “Kolika je stopa zlostavljanja u pravoslavnim crkvama?” Kako bih ja znao? Znam samo da ako pogledate imena na mojoj stranici, vjerojatno ih imam još deset koje ne mogu staviti na stranicu jer će mi netko napisati: Otac taj i taj me zlostavljao. Držim dosje o tome u slučaju da netko drugi naiđe niz cestu i dođe i tvrdi: “Otac taj i taj me je zlostavljao.” Sada sam zaboravio što ste pitali (smijeh).

Jacobsen: Većina onih koji su zlostavljali nisu došli pred lice pravde?

Sakoda: Nemam toliko informacija, ali znam u katoličkom kontekstu. Vrlo je mali broj svećenika procesuiran za svoje zločine. Dio toga je i problem zastare. Nakon dovoljno vremena nastupila je zastara. U SAD-u, Stognerova odluka, Kalifornija je pokušala učiniti ovo okolo, rekavši da neće promijeniti definicije zločina ili kazni. Ipak, dopustili bi pokretanje kaznenih predmeta nakon zastare. Vrhovni sud SAD-a rekao je: “Ne, ne možete to učiniti. To je kršenje ustavnih prava. Ne možete retroaktivno promijeniti kaznenu zastaru.” Ljudi se obično javljaju između 50 i 70. Šala je, nije lijepa, da zastara znači “Sranje od sreće”.

Jacobsen: Kako je to rekao George Carlin? “Ti bi bio SOL i JWF. Sranje od sreće i jako dobro sjeban.”

Sakoda: Dakle, postoji ta stvar. Ako shvatite da to rade crkve i pravoslavna crkva, ja nemam toliko podataka. Ne prijavljuju ih policiji. Zato i nemate toliko procesuiranja. Pokušavam razmišljati. Ovo je jedan od prvih velikih slučajeva. Mislim da je 1999. godine u jednom pravoslavnom samostanu u Texasu dvoje ljudi prijavljeno zbog seksualnog zlostavljanja djece. Abbott i njegova desna ruka, kako se zove? Otac Benedict Green, drugi tip je bio Jeremiah Hitt. Osim presude Pangratiosu koju smo otkrili, oni su bili prvi. Hitt je otišao na suđenje. Benedict je priznao krivnju. Ali još uvijek si imao sve te ljude koji nisu vjerovali u to.

Jacobsen: To nije kontroverzni dio. To je prilično za tečaj. Čak je i tip koji je vodio trgovinu ljudima, seks trgovinu i seks kult, Keith Raniere, bio dio HBO-ove specijalne ili dokumentarne serije, Zavjet , gdje je bio avangarda u NXIVM-u. Dobio je doživotni zatvor, kao i nekoliko njegovih sudionika, muškaraca i žena. Ipak, u zatvoru ga mnogi brane.

Šakoda: Da, u ovom konkretnom slučaju, 2006. godine, bio je drugi set optužbi. Nove žrtve dolaze naprijed višestruke žrtve. Ne mogu se sjetiti je li njih 5 ili 6 bilo optuženo i svi su osuđeni. Benedict Green se ubio prije nego što je mogao ići na suđenje jer mislim da je znao da će ići u zatvor. Uostalom, ovo mu je bila druga osuda. Ovo je bilo u Teksasu. Ne želiš ići u zatvor u Teksasu ili Floridi. [smijeh]

Jacobsen: Ne! Vrijeme je loše.

Sakoda: Nijedan zatvor nije istinski human, po mom mišljenju, nakon što sam posjetio razne zatvore u Kaliforniji. Posebno su loši. Na Floridi također možete ući u lančanu bandu. Znate li što je lančana banda?

Jacobsen: Ne.

Sakoda: Pustili su zatvore na rad na cesti. Koliko je star onaj film Paula Newmana o toj lančanoj bandi? Postoji glavna namirnica na jugu. Nećete ih naći u ostatku zemlje. Možda imaju programe. Kalifornija ima program u kojem vas mogu pustiti da se borite protiv požara.

Jacobsen: Iskreno, ne znam što je gore: besplatno gašenje požara ili biti u zatvoru.

Sakoda: Barem si vani. Mnogima je teško ne biti vani.

Jacobsen: To je kao jedan čovjek kojeg govorite o MeToo. Vjerojatno bi radije bio vani i gasio požare nego bio u zatvoru, jer bi se bojao da će biti seksualno napadnut.

Sakoda: Imao je vjerojatno 400 ili 500 funti. Ne bi ga trebali pustiti da gasi požare.

Jacobsen: Strukturno, potrebno je raditi.

Sakoda: Osim toga, on je u svom prvom kaznenom procesu došao na svoj prvi kazneni postupak s bocom za kisik. Ovo je uobičajena taktika za zlostavljače da se pojave na štakama u invalidskim kolicima.

Jacobsen: To je prikupiti simpatije.

Sakoda: Da, bilo je smiješno. Upravo je bio u Coloradu bez kisika. Dakle, ljudi su to prihvatili. Drugi set punjenja kad su sišli. Na neki način, to je bila prekretnica. Tada smo dobili više kredibiliteta. Prva optužba, rekli su ljudi – moja druga najdraža stvar, jest da se “otac izjasnio krivim samo kako bi spriječio tu žrtvu da mora lagati na klupi za svjedoke.” Kad se izjasniš krivim, moraš reći da sam ovo učinio, učinio sam ovo, pod prisegom. Je li mu bolje da laže? Nevjerojatno je koliko malo ljudi želi vjerovati da se ovo dogodilo. Pravoslavlje je savršeno spremno vjerovati da se to dogodilo u Katoličkoj crkvi.

Jacobsen: To je drugačiji okvir na NIMBY-ju. To se ne događa u mom dvorištu, ali ni ovdje.

Sakoda: Najviše će reći “Imaju oni svećenici u celibatu”. I pravoslavni svećenici mogu biti u celibatu. Neki od njih su zlostavljači. Svi pravoslavni episkopi ili moraju biti udovci. Bilo je biskupa koji su svoje žene smjestili u samostane. Moraju biti i neoženjeni. Dakle, imate dijelove svećenstva u celibatu u Pravoslavnoj crkvi. Ali mislim da ljudi imaju ideju da je to izbor. Morate odlučiti jeste li u celibatu ili ste u braku prije nego što se zaredite i imate izbor. Ali što se događa sa svećenikom čija žena umre? Ne može se ponovno vjenčati u pravoslavlju i biti svećenik. Dakle, dio je toga što je oženjen ili što je svećenik. Pred njim je težak izbor. Ali mislim da je glavna stvar to što ljudi svećenike u celibatu izjednačavaju sa zlostavljanjem. Zlostavljanje se ne odnosi na seks. Riječ je o moći i kontroli. To je kroz sredstvo seksa. To zbunjuje žrtvu.

Jacobsen: To se vraća na pitanje neupitne moći u toj određenoj strukturi. Ako imaju taj transcendentalni status koji se povezuje s nečim božanskim, mnogo je teže to dovoditi u pitanje, pogotovo ako ste odrasli ili bili prožeti time. Mnogo je teže to propitivati.

Sakoda: Mnogi svećenici govore uvjerljive laži. To je ono što Bog želi da činite. Ponekad će za djevojke reći: “Bog želi da te indoktriniram o tome što znači biti kršćanska žena,” ili tako nešto. To je jedna od onih stvari u kojima morate biti u situaciji. Morate biti dijete i shvatiti sve što se dogodilo prije ili druga taktika. Bio je to Phil Saviano. Razotkrivao je Katoličku crkvu. Rekao je: ‘Svećenik mi je dao pivo i dao mi pornografiju.’

Jacobsen: Ha!

Sakoda: ‘Sljedeći put je htio da idem dalje. Nisam mogao reći ‘Ne’ jer sam bio kompromitiran pivom i pornografijom.’ To je način na koji dječji umovi funkcioniraju.

Jacobsen: Da, u nekim od ovih priča ljudi nazaduju. Način na koji pričaju. Ne mogu samo reći ovom svećeniku “odjebi”, kolokvijalno rečeno.

Sakoda: Imao sam jednog čovjeka koji je dolazio na moje sastanke. Ne znam je li dolazio više puta. Imam sastanke podrške za preživjele. Rekao je: “Nisam siguran da bih trebao biti tamo”, jer je bio tamo kad ga je svećenik pokušao dotaknuti. Udario ga je i pobjegao.

Jacobsen: [Smije se].

Sakoda: On kaže: “Nisam bio zlostavljan,” ali ono što se dogodilo je da je njegovo povjerenje u instituciju umrlo, bilo da ga je svećenik doista dotaknuo ili ga je samo pokušao dotaknuti, a on je dobio udarac. Pokušavam reći ljudima sve vrijeme. Čak i ako pobjegnete, mnogi se ljudi smrznu. Čak i da ste ga zamrznuli ili udarili šakom, i dalje biste osjećali tu štetu. “O moj Bože, on bi trebao biti svećenik.” Posebno djeco, što učiniti da se zaštitite sljedeći put? “To mora biti nešto što sam ja učinio. Što da učinim da promijenim ovu situaciju?” Samo si na krivom mjestu u krivo vrijeme s krivom osobom. Vjerojatno ne možete ništa učiniti, posebno za malu djecu. Odrastao muškarac i 6-godišnjak, to nije ni poštena borba.

Jacobsen: 18, 20, 25, još uvijek imaju dosta razvoja osjećaja i stajanja u tome. Može biti mnogo ako ih dovoljno gurnete. Ne treba toliko gurati. Potrebno je dosta vremena da se dobije okosnica.

Sakoda: Posebno ako se suprotstavite nekome za koga vam je rečeno da predstavlja Boga. Sjećam se jednog preživjelog. Bio je zlostavljan kao odrasla osoba. Bio je sjemeništarac. Kad ga je svećenik napao, on se sledio. Bio je šokiran što bi svećenik to učinio. Poslije je imao toliko samooptuživanja i gađenja jer “Zašto nisam nešto učinio?” Mislim da je to teško. To nije samo borba ili bijeg. To je također borba, borba, smrzavanje, smrzavanje i udovoljavanje. Ljudi to zaborave. To se događa. Može postaviti uzorak. To zamrzavanje i popustljivost mogu vas pratiti u sličnim situacijama do kraja života. Možete se vratiti na taj odgovor umjesto da učinite nešto drugačije. Mislim da je trauma pohranjena u drugom dijelu mozga. Utječe na vaše ponašanje na načine kojih niste uvijek svjesni. Netko mi je rekao. Kad im je zlostavljač rekao da će ih ubiti ako progovore, a kad su progovorili, bili su prestravljeni. Ideja da dolazi sjekira. Iako je njihov zlostavljač bio mrtav, bilo je zastrašujuće javiti se zbog onoga što im je rečeno.

Jacobsen: Alati religijske indoktrinacije, po mom mišljenju, temelje se na strahu. Mnogo toga je pojačano strahom od smrti. “Radije ne bih razmišljao o ideji da bih prestao postojati i, prema tome, postojati vječno u nekoj drugoj transcendentnoj dimenziji.”

Sakoda: Dakle, “moram napraviti x, y i z.” To je poput naplatnih kuća. “Moram činiti sve što mi moj duhovnik kaže ili ću biti zauvijek proklet.”

Jacobsen: Najlakša prezentacija, mislim da je u suprotnosti s… životnom filozofijom ti si plamen. Kad jednom ugasiš plamen, ne ide nikamo. Jednostavno prestaje biti. Mislim da je i nama tako.

Sakoda: Nitko ne zna jer se nitko nije vratio (smijeh).

Jacobsen: Točno, ljudi koji vjeruju u Urija Gellera, kojeg je James Randi prikazao kao prevaranta na nacionalnoj televiziji na Johnnyju Carsonu. Slične krivotvorine i prijevare, i tako dalje, primjećujem isti fenomen koji opisujete kod pojedinaca koji iznose zlouporabu. Imaju javne slučajeve. Imaju podatke do 2020. Imaju novinske organizacije koje katalogiziraju stvari poput Hermine i Katherine. Ljudi, poput Dosjea X , žele vjerovati.

Sakoda: Imaju. Dio toga je da želite nastaviti s nečim većim od sebe. To je u redu. Ono što ne možeš imati je da me moj otac uništio. Rekao je: “Melanie, imaš glavu za učiniti više od ukrašavanja svojih ramena.”

Jacobsen: [Smije se].

Sakoda: Fokusirao se na razmišljanje svojom glavom i nije govorio ljudima što da rade. Mislim da postoji taj element društvene uvjetovanosti. Gdje se trebaš pokoravati učiteljima. Trebao bi se pokoravati svećenicima. U osnovi, ljudi ne govore: “Što ako je svećenik kreten?” Što da im radim? Seksualno zlostavljanje je rašireno u društvu. Mislim da bi se to našlo u Crkvi. Mislim da bi mogli učiniti mnogo više da crkve učine sigurnijim mjestom ako ljudi idu u njih.

Jacobsen: Vjerojatno je to pilula koju je teško progutati jer čini da crkve izgledaju kao sve druge institucije, što će reći, ljudske. Tu je i činjenica da indoktrinacija počinje tako rano. Slažem se s Hipatijom. Ako nekoga prožmete dovoljno rano, vrlo mu je teško razotkriti moralne stvari, praznovjerja koja su izgrađena oko ovog kompleksa teologije i društvenog života, zajednice i rituala, te neupitni autoritet tih svećenika i biskupa .

Sakoda: Ipak, neki to prevladaju. Poznajem ženu koja vodi Bishop Accountability, Ann Barrett Doyle. Bila je jedna od onih koji su odgajani kao katolici. Sjećam se da sam čitao nešto o njoj. To je bilo kad je imala 14 godina. Njihov svećenik je nešto govorio. Mislila je da je to smiješno i ustala je. Dakle, kao što je moj otac rekao, imate ljude koji vjeruju u korištenje glave ili savjesti i progovaranje kada vide da nešto nije u redu. Osjećati se ugodno i imati nekoga tko vam govori što da radite je primamljivije. To nije vaša odgovornost.

Jacobsen: To je zastrašujuće za neke ljude.

Sakoda: Strašno je i na drugi način.

Jacobsen: Naravno.

Sakoda: Dakle, ako te starješina zamoli da nekoga ubiješ, ti kažeš: “Da, naravno.”

Jacobsen: [Smije se].

Sakoda: Onda ti idi i napravi to. Ali ti ćeš ići u Nebo jer si poslušao svoga duhovnog oca. To je, po meni, zastrašujuće. Mislim da je to perverzija onoga što religija zapravo jest.

Jacobsen: Budući da ste mi posvetili toliko svog dragocjenog vremena, gospođo.

Sakoda: [Smije se].

Jacobsen: Postavit ću posljednje pitanje.

Sakoda: Je li to trik pitanje? [smijeh]

Jacobsen: Nadam se da ne će. Kad biste mogli uputiti ljude na pojedince ili izvore kojima se mogu obratiti za pomoć ako dolaze iz pravoslavne tradicije, koga bi trebali potražiti? Od kojih organizacija mogu dobiti pomoć? Također, za sebe ili druge koji rade ovu vrstu posla, evo mog dosadašnjeg iskustva. To su – doslovno – žene koje rade ovaj posao. Kako ih mogu podržati svojim vremenom, vještinama, volonterskim naporima i financijama? Koji su načini pomoći također?

Sakoda: Što se tiče organizacija kao što je SNAP, imamo grupe podrške za preživjele. Slijede model sastanka AA. Većina ih ljudi nalazi ili kao dodatak terapiji ili ih neki koriste umjesto terapije. To je način upoznavanja drugih preživjelih ili odlaska u sobu gdje kažete: “Ovo mi se dogodilo kad sam imao 6 godina.” Umjesto da se ljudi okreću na drugu stranu ili govore: “Moraš oprostiti i zaboraviti,” ili bilo što. Ljudi će reći: “Razumijemo.”

Jacobsen: #Crkva također.

Sakoda: Da. U ovoj zemlji također postoji grupa pod nazivom RAINN, Rape Abuse Incest National Network. Imaju neke od istih usluga koje nude. Međutim, nisu specijalizirani za religiju ili religijsko zlostavljanje. SNAP je jedini za kojeg znam da to radi. Njegova misija je podržati one koji su preživjeli zlostavljanje i vjerske institucije. Možda ovo nije ono što ste ovime mislili. Mislim što ljudi mogu učiniti da pomognu. Ako netko dođe i povjeri ti se, kad sam imala 10 godina, moj svećenik me silovao, ili moj župnik ili što već.

Jacobsen: Ozbiljnost, samo čuti je vrlo… Ako čujete tu rečenicu, zastanite i poslušajte što vam govore; ne lažu ti, najvjerojatnije.

Sakoda: Što oni imaju od toga?

Jacobsen: Ozbiljno.

Sakoda: Što kažeš? Kažete: “Žao mi je. Žao mi je što ti se to dogodilo. Što mogu učiniti da vas podržim?” Možda ne možete učiniti puno toga. Možda je ovo njihovo iscjeljujuće putovanje. Ako prihvatite ono što oni kažu… Imao sam jednog preživjelog pravoslavca koji je bio zlostavljan. Kad sam počela razgovarati s njim, bilo je automatski, “Tako mi je žao što ti se dogodilo.” Počeo je plakati. Što da kažem? Rasplačem muškarce. Rekao je: “Nitko mi to nikada prije nije rekao. Da im je žao zbog onoga što mi se dogodilo.” To je kao, to je tužno.

Jacobsen: To prekida čaroliju. Kradem od sada već pokojnog filozofa, Daniela Dennetta, koji je napisao knjigu pod nazivom Razbijanje čarolije: Religija kao prirodni fenomen . Što učiniš kad to učiniš, društveno, barem za mene, razbiješ čaroliju. Muškarcima time razbijaš čaroliju.

Sakoda: Da, to pomaže; Što se tiče toga što može pomoći zagovornicima, ako su uključeni u organizaciju, možete je podržati. Kao što sam rekao, nikada ne dobivamo podršku da preuzmemo status neprofitne organizacije. Možda se i dogodi. Neću zadržati dah. Katolička crkva, čovjek bi pomislio da će pravoslavci razmišljati o SNAP-u. “To je za katolike.” Bilo je smiješno. Poslao sam jednu ženu. Bila je zlostavljana kao starija tinejdžerica. Mislim da je imala 19 godina, i to od pravoslavnog svećenika. Rekao sam: “Zašto ne probati jedan sastanak? Što će boljeti?” Rekla je: “O moj Bože, nisu imali redovni sastanak.” Ovaj je imao predstavu koja se izvodila u društvenom kazalištu ili tako nešto. Grupa ga je otišla vidjeti i podržati ga. Ona kaže: “O moj Bože, on je bio muškarac. Bila sam žena. Bio je katolik. Bio sam pravoslavac. Pričao je moju priču.”

Mislim da je to ono što možete pronaći u zajednici. Ako pronađete drugu organizaciju koja to radi, podržite ih! Jer to je natjerati ljude da se javljaju sve ranije i ranije. Ako imamo djecu koja se jave, onda će imati kaznene presude. Šanse su sljedeće: ako to objavi policija, ako drugi znaju, dobit ćete osude i neke od ovih ljudi iza rešetaka, a ne iza propovjedaonice. Što više to činite, više će ljudi biti spremni vjerovati u to. I dalje će postojati nekoliko vjerskih zanesenjaka koji nikad ne povjeruju u cijelu tu stvar o tome da je “Držao je ruke na njega!” Postoje neke promjene u katolicizmu, počevši s O, koje se događaju kada se zaredite. Najbolji odgovor koji sam ikad nekome dao, posebice Pravoslavnoj crkvi, bio je: “Crkva je možda mistična. To nije magija. Ako je netko zlostavljač prije nego što je zaređen, bit će zlostavljač i poslije. Ne će ih automatski popraviti.”

Bojan Jovanović i Melanie Sakoda

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In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. ©Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use or duplication of material without express permission from Scott Douglas Jacobsen strictly prohibited, excerpts and links must use full credit to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with direction to the original content.