Conversation With Atheists In Kenya Society

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2024/11/26

The Atheists In Kenya Society (AIK) is a nonprofit organization founded by Harrison Mumia on February 17, 2016. It promotes the rights and visibility of atheists in Kenya and advocates for secularism and rational inquiry. AIK is affiliated with Humanists International and actively engages in legal and social activism.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, what’s going on in Kenya for atheists? How are things for you all? Oh, and ma’am, one ma’am.

Harrison Mumia: Yes, I’m happy we are having these engagements, and I am speaking on behalf of the Atheists In Kenya Society. One of our members, Ms. Sky, is also here. So, we’re doing reasonably well. The society has existed for the last seven years and was officially registered in February 2016.

To give you some context, we are in East Africa. Kenya is a deeply religious society. When I say deeply religious, I mean that the term “atheist” is widely misunderstood. People often don’t comprehend what it means to be an atheist, and even if they do, accepting it is difficult. 

We’ve also faced legal challenges because the Kenyan government does not support us. In Kenya, politics and religion are tightly intertwined. That’s why we face resistance from the political class whenever we try to advance our objectives. They don’t even want to hear about us. After we were registered, the government suspended our registration in the same year, 2016.

We took the matter to court and fought the case for two years. Fortunately, we won in 2018 because the court ruled that suspending our registration was unconstitutional. Since then, we have been working to create awareness, promote free thought, and encourage debates.

We are seeing a slight but progressive change in Kenyan society in terms of understanding that there are Kenyans who don’t believe in a supernatural entity. Some Kenyans view life differently and hold a worldview that does not involve religion. Although Kenya is still a deeply religious country, the younger generation is more open to skepticism and having conversations about these topics.

We remain a deeply religious country, but there is a shift toward more discussions. We are the only registered atheist organization in Kenya and, I believe, in this part of Africa, which includes East Africa. Suppose you look at countries like Uganda, Tanzania, and Zambia. In that case, we are the most active non-religious organization in the region, and we are doing a lot.

We run multiple campaigns, hold regular meetings, and have an active WhatsApp group. We are working hard to create spaces for people to engage in meaningful discussions. So far, we are doing quite well. That’s where we are right now.

Jacobsen: Ms. Sky, would you like to add something at this point?

Ms. Sky:  Oh, I have nothing to add because, based on the information you mentioned, it’s all true.

Mumia: All right, that’s fine. So, that is where we are. We have a membership. We have people who are registered members. But then again, we are facing a situation where people want to have conversations. They can identify as atheists, agnostics, skeptics, or even freethinkers.

However, the issue is that they don’t want to be open about it. They don’t want their parents to know. It’s still a stigmatized position in this country to be openly non-religious. So, you’ll find that many of our members are active in the WhatsApp groups, but they are not able to declare, “I am an atheist openly.” There is a transition happening in Kenya. The younger generation is more open to conversations about skepticism and religion. Some are willing to say, “I don’t believe in the existence of God.” However, we are still far from becoming an openly secular society. Kenya remains deeply religious overall.

Jacobsen: When you host events, how do you provide a sense of solidarity for people who, in East Africa, may not have a supportive community? Nsajigwa I Mwasokwa, for example, talks about being in a liberal society and multiparty society on paper but not truly liberal in a Tanzanian context. As far as I know, he does most of his activism and mentoring without a lot of support. So, how do you overcome that sense of isolation that people may feel through community events? 

Mumia: We have organized many outdoor events. We meet twice a month and have a Book Club event. The Book Club brings together those who enjoy reading. We focus on literature about enlightenment, philosophy, history, culture, and science.

The purpose of the Book Club is to introduce new perspectives and encourage critical thinking. For example, we’ve discussed Charles Darwin’s work on the theory of evolution, Albert Einstein’s work on the theory of relativity, and the history of African religions.

We explore how Africa transitioned from traditional religions to Christianity during colonialism and what African beliefs were like before colonialism. We examine the works of various authors and discuss these topics at our Book Club events. You can find videos of some of our events on YouTube.

We also have another event called the Godless Corner. This is a free-form gathering of freethinkers and atheists. There is no specific agenda; we meet to talk, discuss freely, and enjoy a beer or coffee. It allows people to connect with others who share a non-religious worldview.

We also organize hikes. In Kenya, there are places where you can go hiking or for nature walks. In the past seven months, we’ve organized two or three events that involved hiking and nature walks in places like Karura Forest. These events allow people to meet, interact, make friends, and build community. You can also find more of our events on YouTube.

We’ve organized activities like karaoke, a fun event for non-religious people. We’re trying to come up with all sorts of activities where people can participate. However, the most active engagement we see is online. We have a Facebook page with 10,000 followers, a Facebook group with 10,000 members, and a WhatsApp group with over 600 members.

We also have 10,000 followers on X (formerly Twitter), so online engagement is higher than physical engagement. I’m seeing a trend of people feeling more comfortable staying in their homes and chatting online.

Jacobsen: What do you observe in other online communities? In North America, for example, the ex-Muslim community primarily grew out of an online space. People like Armin Navabi and Atheist Republic have a couple million Facebook followers. These online spaces have become places where people can express themselves more freely. Do online spaces in Kenya provide a safer or more comfortable environment for people, allowing them to escape the judgment they might face in their local communities?

Mumia: Online communities are more comfortable spaces for many Kenyan non-believers than physical events. We typically get between 5 and 15 attendees when we hold physical meetings. But people are much more active online. It’s easier to engage online because there are no restrictions on time or location.

For instance, we have Kenyans living abroad—perhaps studying or working in other countries—but they can still join our WhatsApp and Facebook groups. Many people feel safer engaging online because Kenya is such a religious country, and the social stigma around non-belief is still strong. So, yes, a lot of our engagement happens through social media, and that’s a reality for us.

Unless anyone else wants to add something, I’d like to make sure everyone has a chance to speak. We have some Kenyans joining. Micah, are you there?

Micah Mukhwana: Yes, I’m here.

Mumia: You heard Scott’s question about how we engage as the Atheists In Kenya Society (AIK) and our online spaces. If you’d like to add anything, feel free to do so. 

Mukhwana: Yes, a lot is happening. We’ve been engaging in important matters, trying to make this more than just an online group. For example, people have been going for hikes and nature walks, which help us connect with nature.

There’s been a lot happening. I recently joined the WhatsApp group, and although I haven’t been super active, I’ve seen a lot of conversations and engagement in the short time I’ve been there.

Mumia: Yes, thank you. Scott, you should introduce yourselves at some point so everyone knows who they’re interacting with.

Jacobsen: Yes, sure. Hi, my name is Scott. I’m a humanist from Canada.

I’ve been involved in the humanist community for seven or eight years, probably. I’ve worked with Humanists International, Humanist Canada, the Center for Inquiry Canada, and various other humanist groups. I’ve been conducting interviews with atheists, humanists, and freethinkers for years, and there are certain gaps in getting some voices out into the global space.

So, I’ve focused on interviewing people from African, Latin American, and Asian contexts to help amplify those voices. I’m a freelance independent journalist with the Canadian Association of Journalists. I use my journalism to highlight atheism and humanism.

Mumia: Oh, it’s good to know that you’re a journalist. That’s great. So, in Kenya, we’ve found that Kenyans are more comfortable engaging online. If you call for a physical meeting, first of all, Kenya is not a small country.

For example, I’m in the capital city, but some drive six or seven hours away. They often tell me, “Mumia, we cannot come to Nairobi.” So, they prefer online engagement. We also don’t need the funds to organize meetings in every city in Kenya, so we typically hold events in Nairobi.

But I see the most comfort and activity in our online engagements, where most Kenyans engage. That’s the situation, but we plan to organize a conference. We’re considering hosting a humanist conference before the next international one in Luxembourg.

I’d like to see whether we can organize a conference in December or January, inviting people from outside the country to give speeches or hosting it online. We’ll see how that works out, as it would be our first humanist conference in Kenya. We’ve never had one before, but it would be important in advancing this cause.

Jacobsen: A lot of it can be done online or through symposiums. Symposiums can be good experimental ground for testing themes and organizational setups and working out any issues in preparation. In academic settings, organizing smaller symposiums has been helpful before. I encourage you to pursue conferences because they bring everyone together, offering something to look forward to either seasonally or annually. Does anyone have questions for Thomas, Micah, Henry, L, Fiona, or Hamza.

Mukhwana:  I do have a question. For instance, now that we are building a society in Kenya, can we also engage beyond the country? In Kenya, many people believe so strongly in God that they find it difficult to engage in conversations about atheism or skepticism. Can we have external conferences or meetups to connect with others globally? Could that help in creating a better society?

Ms. Sky: Yes.

Mumia: That is exactly what the society is working toward.Micah, you recently joined the WhatsApp group. The Atheists In Kenya Society is an associate member of Humanists International. Please attend our meetings in Nairobi when we organize them. You’ll be able to meet Kenyan atheists, interact with our leadership, and register as a member to learn more about what we’re doing. We have also partnered with African atheist organizations. By the way, Scott, we’re working with atheist groups in Ghana and Nigeria, like Leo Igwe.

Jacobsen: Yes, Leo Igwe. I’ve written for the Atheist Society of Nigeria’s blog, contributing about half a dozen to a dozen, maybe, articles, interviews, and other content when they were first registered. I’ve also interviewed members of the Humanist Association of Ghana (HAG) and recently published an interview with the founder of Accra Atheists and the vice president of Humanists International.

Mumia: Oh, really? That’s great!

Jacobsen: So, connecting with atheists in Ghana and Nigeria—those are two well-known groups. Ghana had a head start with its post-colonial history and Kwame Nkrumah’s leadership. Don’t feel disheartened if they seem ahead.

Mumia: Yes. But, of course, Ghana is in West Africa, and we’re in East Africa. Our trajectories were slightly different. Ghana gained independence first; they were the first African country to achieve independence. Kenya got its independence a bit later. That difference in timing is well understood. I’d also like to ask you a few questions. Once you’re done, I’ll also try to understand your perspective.

I want to ask the Kenyans who are here: How do you feel about what we’re doing as an organization compared to what we see at the national level? What’s your take? Do you feel Kenya is becoming more secular, or are we getting more entrenched in religion? Do you think we’re making progress toward secularism? I’d love to hear from any Kenyan. What is your perspective? Are Kenya becoming more open as a society, or are we still much closed off due to religion? What’s your general feeling, considering that the Atheists in Kenya Society have been trying hard to make our presence felt in the national sphere? Where do you think we stand regarding atheism, freethought, skepticism, and religious freedom? Or are you guys too scared to speak up, even now?

Fiona: It’s still conservative and religious, but there is progress.

Ms. Sky: Very little to be honest, if you add tribalism to that, it is a very evil concoction.

Mumia: Yes, I can see that. That’s encouraging. That’s also an accurate assessment. There is progress, but Kenya is still a religious society. As Scott mentioned, politics in Kenya is intertwined with religion, and that’s part of the problem. We don’t have leadership that’s open to promoting secularism. We are coming from an environment that is highly religious and politicized. Our politics is religious in nature. 

Jacobsen: Harrison, and Michelle Nekesa, what is involved in the website’s design?

Michelle Nekesa: That’s a good question. You need to ensure a good user interface and user experience. Write clean code to achieve a good output, right? You also need to conduct customer-centric or client-centric research to understand the users who will interact with the website. You have to consider its functionality. What is the website’s purpose?

What exactly is the goal? Do you want visitors to engage with a chatbot or view your content, whether blog posts or events are regularly updated on the site? When speaking as a client rather than a developer, the website must be appealing and interactive. A plain, black-and-white design that is unattractive doesn’t work. Especially now, with social media, we are used to well-designed software and websites. So, yes, a lot of good work went into designing this website. 

Mumia: She covered it all. From my perspective, I wanted to emphasize that if you think about Kenya, atheists are often perceived as devil worshippers or that there’s something wrong with us. I wanted to communicate through the website that we are human beings with humanist values.

Jacobsen: What’s your latest campaign, Atheists in Kenya Society? “We are human beings.” It sounds like such a long way to go.

Nekesa: [Laughing].  Yes, there is still a long road ahead. But as he mentioned, in more conservative or religious countries, when you don’t conform, you are labelled as a demon, Satanist, or part of the Illuminati, or other baseless claims.

So, yes, part of our website is dedicated to destigmatizing both humanism and atheism. We get a lot of direct messages asking if we are part of the Illuminati, and I’m like, the name of our society should make it clear that we are not devil worshippers or satan fanatics. So, yes, it’s important to address and dispel these misconceptions.

Mumia:  Exactly. We’ve made significant efforts to explain what humanism and atheism are and who we are as a society. When we were registered, we were legally registered by the government. So, we are not an illegal entity. We are a membership-based organization. Once you become a member, we provide certain benefits.

At least we can offer some legal assistance. Our team has a lawyer who does excellent pro bono work for us. He has been doing pro bono work for us during our court battles. So, we tell people that even though we don’t have much money, we can write letters and help them seek justice if they face discrimination or similar issues.

However, convincing people to become members of an atheist organization still requires some effort. People often question why they should join, and it takes time for them to understand the value of such an organization.But we hope it will become normal over time to say, “I belong to this organization because it stands for these values.”

I wish we were in, say, Norway or something. I hope we get funding from the government, but we are borrowing a lot from the IMF and others. Even if the government had funds, if Kenyans found out it was giving money to the Atheists in Kenya Society, they would protest at the State House.

Nekesa: While that would be ideal, let’s be realistic. Our healthcare system needs more funding, and our education system has challenges. So imagine saying to a country, “We’re paying taxes and need to develop our infrastructure, but can we allocate even 2% of those funds to support freedom of belief?”

They’d look at you and say, “We are hungry right now.” Our economy is in shambles. We’ve not been this economically weak in the last 25 years. Kenya has held significant economic power in East and Central Africa for the past quarter century, but that has collapsed in the last two years.

Apart from the ideological differences in a conservative mainstream culture, where Kenyans may appear liberal but are often only performatively so—sure, sure, sure— But yes, we are performatively liberal. When push comes to shove, people will not only protest, but they will say that there’s propaganda against Christianity, and now devils are ruling.

This is especially true because the current government used religion as one of its strategies to gain power by pandering to the religious masses. So, how do you pivot and say, “Now, we’re going to finance this?” Apart from having funds in the Central Bank of Kenya, there needs to be more willingness and capacity on both the government’s and the public’s sides. 

Jacobsen: So we’re talking about website design, atheists, and other topics. What else are we discussing? How can Kenyan atheists get involved with AIK (Atheists in Kenya Society)? And how can freethought individuals in Kenya become politically active without risking too much damage to their reputation? I’ve heard that some people even get fired from banks for being openly atheist.

Mumia: Yes, that’s true. It’s still risky. If you work for the government and you’re openly atheist, it may not sit well with the government. That’s how I see it. So, being associated with atheism in Kenya, especially if you work for the government, can be risky if it’s as open as my case. But if you stay quiet about it, you’ll likely be safe. We organize events to engage members and people who want to be part of our community.

I mentioned the book club, where we meet physically, and the Godless Corner, where we meet in person. We also organize online events. Sometimes, we hold online sessions and specific conversations on WhatsApp, during which we focus on a particular topic and engage in discussion. In general, online conversations are the easiest way for Kenyans to interact, especially because some can’t even tell their girlfriends, boyfriends, parents, or relatives that they are atheists. It’s serious—some people risk losing relationships over it.

Nekesa: Yes, Mumia, it’s true. You might be disowned. People will say you’re not a good Christian or Catholic, or even your friends may turn away. It sounds extreme, but many think that if you’re against religion, you must be on the side of the devil. It’s true, and it’s sad.

Jacobsen: What about the gendered aspects of this? Scriptures can be interpreted differently, and people will use them to attack others through that lens. In North America, for example, evangelical pastors often accuse women of having a “Jezebel spirit.” That’s different from calling someone satanic or possessed, which is more common in Kenya. How do you interpret this gendered lens when fundamentalist communities in Kenya attack male atheists versus female atheists?

How do you see the difference in how men and women are treated when they speak out as atheists in Kenya?

Nekesa: Again, it comes back to why Kenya is still considered liberal in some ways. Mumia, do you want to take this?

Mumia: No, no, but people do find it strange when a woman identifies as an unbeliever. There’s a lot of curiosity and surprise. Michelle, have you experienced that? It’s quite different for women.

Nekesa: Yes, I was talking about this. Yesterday, I spent 10 hours on Twitter, one of my favourite places to discuss these issues. We were discussing how, for men, especially those who believe in male superiority or champion patriarchy. It makes sense for them to be religious.

They use religious authority to support their arguments, even when those arguments are deeply flawed. But when it comes to women, it’s surprising to see them religious because why would you support a religion that requires you to be inferior to men? I remember telling my friends how, as a Catholic growing up, I noticed early on that women were always the ones cleaning the church.

Women would lead the choir and do everything except be priests. I was always curious, thinking, “They’re good enough to manage the welfare of the church, but suddenly they can’t sit on the big chairs?” As a child, I would wonder, “What does he have? Why does he get to sit on that altar with the big chair?” So, yes, I find it a bit confusing when women are staunchly religious compared to men.

Because for men, there are clear incentives to be religious, but for women, it’s like they’re going against their interests. Every day, especially online, you see African pastors preaching that if you have a cheating or abusive husband, don’t leave him—pray for him. So, being a woman in that space is tough.

Every day! I promise you, if I show you these videos daily, you’ll think I’m joking. These videos are from 2024, made by pastors all over the place. So, being a religious woman in that context doesn’t make sense. It’s like being against yourself. Yes, it could be clearer.

Jacobsen: Wow, that’s deep. I’m working with some women who are cataloging clergy-related abuse in Eastern Orthodoxy, particularly Greek and Romanian Orthodox churches. When these women go to conferences and meet others whom clergy or their congregation has victimized, women from these circumstances reported being told the same thing: “Just pray for your husband.” They need to be given real solutions.

Nekesa:  Yes, yes. And you know what’s crazy?

When you tie it to African culture—Mumia would know this—I always say it in Swahili and then translate it. It’s like “mwanamke mzuri ni mvumilivu,” which means a good woman or wife is persevering. The measure of a good wife is how much abuse she can absorb and tolerate.

So, if a woman wants to leave her husband, she’s seen as a bad wife. In my culture, a woman’s role is to hide the mess and shame of her husband. So imagine telling people, “I don’t want to clean his mess anymore. I want to leave.” They’d say, “You’re not a good woman, you’re not a good wife, and even the Bible says so.” Especially where African culture and religion intersect for women, it’s a dangerous place.

I see it firsthand. I see it all the time. Women of all classes and ethnicities or tribes in Kenya constantly discuss this. You go to a pastor and say, “My husband is abusive, whether sexually, financially, or physically.” And there’s no mention of the man’s actions.

The focus is always on, “What was your reaction?” Or they’re immediately gaslighted: “Maybe this is just the will of God, and you need to pray more. Have you been fasting? What role did you play in this? Did you trigger him? Were you submissive as the Bible says?”

It becomes this cycle of, “Why did I even come here? I might as well stay home and endure it.” It’s triggering for many women.

Jacobsen: I can imagine. Women who are in the middle range—perhaps not dealing with outright sexual assault but facing emotional and verbal abuse—go to their community, which, for many, is the church. They report, “I have a concern. I’m being abused. I’m being told I’m worthless.” Suppose the clergy don’t understand the context and how this impacts women as individuals. What happens to that woman when she’s told, “Pray more, fast more, and reflect on your sin first”?

Nekesa: I can think of a few cases. While they may not be as extreme as being outright told to pray and submit, there’s a blind spot we might be missing: these women trust these systems. They trust their religion. To them, there’s no possibility that the system or the people in it could be wrong. So, they’re often told, usually by polite or sensible leaders, “To be human is to be imperfect, and even Jesus died for our sins.”

They might not explicitly say it’s her fault, but they will take the passive approach, like, “Have you tried praying for him?” Because these women trust the voices of their clergy, they internalize this, thinking, “Oh, yes, I can’t believe I even had sinful thoughts of divorce or leaving my husband.” They may even feel guilty, thinking, “What did I do wrong? Maybe the abuse is my fault because I’m not sticking by him like I vowed, for better or for worse.”

Instead of feeling betrayed by their church or community, they feel they’ve betrayed God, their religion, or their husband by having sinful thoughts of leaving or breaking the marriage. It’s not always clear-cut or black and white.

Jacobsen: If a woman decides to leave, saying, “I’m tired of the abuse and the community’s denial of my abuse,” what happens within the community when the marriage is broken or a divorce occurs? How is that woman perceived?

Nekesa: Honestly, this is where our liberalism comes into play. While we are conservative in many ways, divorce is not such a foreign concept in Kenya. In the church, people may gossip or look down on a divorced woman because there’s much social capital attached to being a married woman, especially in Africa and within the African church. She will lose some social capital and respect, but more is needed to become completely isolated.

Of course, there will be a change in how she’s received. Before, she may have been seen as a “chosen wife,” representing a family, a marriage, or maybe even married to someone high in the church, like a deacon. After the divorce, she loses access to that status. However, unless she’s part of a strict, right-wing community, she will still retain many things, though to a lesser degree.

Jacobsen: Are there any final points you want to make in this interview? Go ahead.

Nekesa: Do I have any final points? Mumia, do you have any final points? For me personally, I saw a video that said, “Christianity is where women’s spirituality goes to die,” and I completely agreewith that. I don’t think mainstream religion provides a space for women to exist and be themselves as human beings outside of servitude to men. Mainstream religions, not just Christianity, don’t offer much for women in terms of autonomy.

Unless there’s some clear benefit—serious perks—I’ve always wondered how brilliant, strong women reconcile their faith with what the church demands. They often mention the community, the social capital, and the network they gain from the church. I get that, but on a deeper level, I don’t think the church has much to offer women. That’s my stance, and I’m quite comfortable with it.

That’s my final point. Mumia, do you have a final point?

Mumia:  I want to thank Scott for allowing us to engage with him, especially for the first time. I’m also happy Michelle joined. I’d like to know, “Where’s Michelle? Where’s Ella? Where’s Samson?” We have an executive committee, Scott, and I always like to have them participate in our engagements. So, anytime you want to talk to us again, email me.

I’ll bring the rest of the team so you can meet them. I hope we’ll meet in person one day, whether in Luxembourg or somewhere else, but I hope we do.

Jacobsen:  Prepare to be underwhelmed.

Nekesa: Haha, speak for yourself—just for the sake of banter!

Jacobsen: Thank you so much for your time and discussion today.

Nekesa: Good morning and good night, everyone.

Mumia: Yes, good night.

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