Matthew Lesko on Grants for Debt

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2024/10/28

 Matthew Lesko, born May 11, 1943, is an American author and infomercial personality known for his “Free Money” books and TV appearances. He gained fame for his colorful suits adorned with question marks and claims to help people access government funds. Despite criticism, Lesko has published over twenty books on federal grants and public assistance. He resides in Maryland with his third wife, Wendy Schaetzel Lesko, and their two children.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we’re here with Matthew Lesko to discuss grants, debt, and other intriguing topics that, when tax time comes around, everyone can’t help but feel anxious about. You’ve had a 40+ year career educating the public about these matters. My first question is: why did this interest you, and how did you make a living?

Matthew Lesko: Honestly, I don’t know. I’m 81 years old now. When I started, I was in the military for three years, two months, and nine days during the Vietnam War. Afterward, I went to graduate school. I wasn’t much of an intellectual, but several universities took my GI Bill money, even though I couldn’t get into grad school before the war.

After that, I earned an MBA and started several businesses. My first MBA was in computers, and I launched a computer software company in the 1970s, but it failed. Another business I started also failed. I kept failing at everything.

Then, I became a consultant. When you’re failing, you often end up as a consultant. I lived in Washington, D.C., and started working for Fortune 500 companies, helping them navigate the federal government to get what they needed. I didn’t know much about Washington myself, however. I grew up in a small town called Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania—like Henderson Hot Springs or a town like that. I didn’t know anything about government, but I was hungry, and these companies were paying me to find information. So, I went to various government agencies and was shocked by the available resources.

Coming from a small coal-mining town, I had always thought the government was just the IRS, the DMV, and the post office—that was it. But what shocked me was that people could secure millions of dollars and become billionaires through government programs. I thought, “Holy shit, why doesn’t everyone do this?” Especially the people back in Wilkes-Barre!

That was my first business, and it grew. I started with just myself, a phone, and a desk, which eventually became successful. But after a while, I got tired of helping rich people—they were no fun. All they cared about was making more money. I wanted to enjoy life and have fun, and I found that giving talks and seeing people smile and laugh brought me joy.

I used to give speeches at companies like Procter & Gamble, but no one ever laughed during those talks. It would take me weeks to realize I had done a good job because everyone was too afraid to show emotion in front of their colleagues. That environment wasn’t for me.

Then, one day, an agent found me. There was an article about me in Parade magazine, a big Sunday supplement in the U.S. that reaches millions of readers. The article was about how I helped businesses find government information. After publishing it, an agent approached me and said, “Why don’t you write a book?”

I laughed because I had flunked English three times in college. Writing a book felt like going to Mars. But, well, here we are!

Jacobsen: You tried that with your book, and it became a New York Times bestseller. How did that come about?

Lesko: Yes, I did! The book became a New York Times bestseller, and I copied everything from government publications. I didn’t write a word. Remember, I flunked English.

I found a book at the Government Printing Office called The Catalog of Federal Domestic Assistance and literally cut and pasted from it. You could do that with government publications. Nothing in the government is copyrighted because “We, The People,” own everything. See? So, you’re not protecting anything because everyone is the owner. So, I took that catalogue, which had around 2,000 programs, and made a book out of it.

After a couple of failed businesses, I had already learned that having customers is the key to staying in business. If you can’t get customers, you don’t have a business. Everybody worries about all this other stuff, but that’s irrelevant. After wasting a lot of money on advertising, I realized that free advertising—getting people to write about you—is the best way. I couldn’t afford to buy an article in Parade magazine, but getting someone to write it costs me nothing. It’s all about hard work and understanding the process.

When my consumer book came out, I thought, “How do I market this?” Local talk shows were the way to go at that time—every city had them. Not just talk radio but local news shows, too. I made a career selling millions of books by going from city to city, doing ten shows in one city, getting on a plane, and doing ten more shows in the next. That’s how I built my success.

But then people stopped buying reference books because of the Internet. Remember that? It put me out of business for reference books since everyone thought they could get everything for free online. It took me years to figure out how to pivot because the information is still important. I just had to figure out how to present it in a way that people would find valuable.

What I do now is more successful than anything I’ve done before. I had infomercials that were famous here in the U.S., and I sold many books. But now, it’s about community. I have something called LeskoHelp, which is people helping people. I’m just the “trained seal” who gets people in, but the real magic happens when others who’ve figured out the system help people get the necessary resources. This has been more profitable than anything I’ve done before.

My other businesses were bigger but less profitable than this one. I love it because I see how much it helps people. People who didn’t know how to spell “USA” now get grants to pay their rent or utilities. They had no idea this help existed.

What bothers me is that rich people know all about this stuff and use it constantly. The people who need it don’t know it exists. In America, half the population can’t afford an unexpected $500 bill. They don’t have the money. There’s so much need in this country now. The rich keep getting richer, and the poor keep falling further behind.

The number of impoverished people is increasing, and these government programs are more important than ever. The government now gives out an average of $17,000 per person every year through these programs. But there are thousands and thousands of different programs, and people have yet to learn about them. People will call a government office, and even the people working there don’t know what programs they have available.

The key is finding the right office and transferring that information to people who need it. I don’t think I’m the best person to teach someone just starting because I have 50 years of experience. That can be intimidating for someone new to this. It’s hard to understand where they’re coming from.

But the most valuable part of what I do is through the community of members who’ve learned from me. They can teach each other. The best part is that I only charge $20 monthly for access. I could easily charge $2,000 or $3,000, and people would pay for it. In the U.S., information is worth what people are willing to pay. But I didn’t want to do that. Everyone told me I should charge at least $500 a month when I started. Instead, I wanted to be the $20 guy.

For $20 a month, you can get as much information as possible. There’s no upsell, no hidden fees. I don’t care. I’ll even teach you for free, and I do that often. I want people to know that they don’t need me. Some people in your neighbourhood—wherever you are in the U.S.—get paid by the government to do what I do, and they do it for free. But nobody knows about them. People on the street don’t know that.

Lesko: What was the question again?

Jacobsen: How did you originally get started with this 49 years ago? You’ve given a lot of context, but I also want to dive into how major media coverage—like on Oprah or Larry King—helped expand your reach to the millions of people who watch those shows. How did that exposure help?

Lesko: Oh. It helped me reach more people than I ever imagined. That’s why I was a regular on Late Night with David Letterman. I must have appeared on his show seven times or so. They’d call me whenever someone cancelled. I learned early on that the media doesn’t care what you say. I used to think, “They’re going to open my book, go to page 37, and ask me about this specific fact.” But nobody does that. Nobody reads it. It’s all entertainment.

I was the go-to guest when someone cancelled. I remember once when Letterman’s team called me in Chicago in the middle of the day. They said, “Did someone cancel? We need you here for the 5 o’clock show.” And just like that, I’d fly to New York.

What a thrill it was! I always wondered, “Who am I subbing for?” Larry King used to do this, too, when he had an hour-long show. He’d have one guest for the first half-hour and another for the second half-hour. He’d say, “Lesko, come on down and wait. We may or may not use you as the second guest.”

I’d sit there while some big star was on during the first half-hour. If the star couldn’t stay for another half-hour, they’d say, “Let’s go with Lesko.” If the star said yes, I’d be bumped, but they’d owe me one, and I’d get invited back again. That’s how I became a reliable, professional guest. But, of course, there was always a limit to that.

Then I started thinking about how to market myself. I realized that I was doing so well as a guest, so I needed to figure out how to translate that success into paid ads without actually paying for the ads. I never paid for anything. I discovered that if I provided an ad and said, “Hey, if nobody buys this time slot, use my ad, and I’ll give you half the money,” I could make a fortune. I did this on CNN and made so much money but didn’t pay for the time. My theory was simple.

Back when I was selling books in New York, it was frustrating that bookstores got half the money. I got, like, 10%. Practically nothing! My market wasn’t people hanging around bookstores, but when I was a guest on shows like Larry King, viewers had to go to a bookstore to get my book. I was driving traffic to bookstores, but my audience wasn’t necessarily book browsers.

When I decided to publish my books, I wondered how I would do it. Should I publish 100,000 books and send them to bookstores? I didn’t have that kind of money. So, I figured out a different approach. Larry King was one of the first places I tested it. I used an 800 number. People would call, give their credit card information, and I’d get the money before they even got the book. It was great!

I didn’t need money upfront to make it work, and I was getting national coverage through the 800 number. My market wasn’t people hanging out in bookstores. My customers were people struggling in life, and they needed quick access to the information I had. This approach worked well. Then I did infomercials, which were huge. I love entertaining and trying to bring joy to people’s lives. That’s why I dress like this—every day is about bringing joy to my own life, too.

I dress like this all the time. When I walk down the street, people smile at me. They don’t know me or my work—maybe some do occasionally—but just seeing me makes them smile, and that’s why I do it. But when people look at you and smile, that’s a wonderful feeling. If I can make people smile for no reason, and they don’t even know me—that’s a gift. Even if they don’t buy anything, just having people around you always smiling—that’s a nice way to live. I don’t care that much about selling anymore.

Jacobsen: How can ordinary Americans take advantage of some of these grants, which average $17,000 annually?

Lesko: That’s the key! It would be nice if there were a single website for it all, but I have eight websites you can start with. These people do what I do, but they do it for free because the government pays them. Let’s go through some of them.

If you have bad credit, there are government programs not only to pay your living expenses—rent, utilities, mortgage, or car payments—but also to provide free counsellors. These counsellors will sit down with you, help you eliminate debt, and deal with your creditors—all free. You can find them at hud.gov/counseling. You can make an appointment right there.

I recommend making appointments with 2 or 3 of these counsellors because only some know everything, and you want to ensure you understand all your options. Otherwise, your alternative is to go on Google, type in “debt,” and get 250 million websites. The right program is in there, but you’ll never find it—it’s probably on page 7,240. You’ll never get to it because everything on Google is from someone trying to make money off you. Everything I’m telling people about comes from people who want to give you money. These programs don’t have advertising money, so you’ll never find them on Google. People get frustrated and end up paying someone when they don’t have to, which only gets them into deeper financial trouble.

The next thing is doing something with your life. Do you want to start a business? Be a freelancer? Have an invention? Start a nonprofit? The government provides free consultants in every city in the country—probably half a dozen to two or three dozen in each city. These consultants receive government grants to help you set things up. They don’t charge you. They help you find money, give you legal assistance—everything.

The government has a database where you can find these consultants. Go to sba.gov/local-assistance, enter your ZIP code, and find out where these people are. You call them up and make an appointment. Getting Help these days requires some reporting skills, like what you do as a reporter.

With Google, people think they no longer need to use the phone. But I’m sure when you’re working on an article, you have to get on the phone, talk to half a dozen people, and gather real information. Instead of relying on 500 websites and still knowing nothing, you talk to people. That’s what you must do now—at least for my work. It’s essential!

So that’s free help for you to get started on that business you’ve always wanted or that invention idea instead of going to Google and finding someone who will charge you $10,000 to do something worse. There’s also a ton of job training in the United States. It’s incredible.

Most of our population doesn’t have a degree, which used to be where all the money was. Now, it’s all about skills. You don’t need a degree as much anymore but need the right skills. The government is pouring a lot of money into training programs and will pay you while you train. You could make maybe $40,000 a year while you’re training, and after a couple of years, you could move into a career making $100,000 a year—without a degree. All of this can be done without a degree.

A good place to start for job training is careeronestop.org. You go there, call them, make an appointment, and talk to someone. That’s how you get things done. We tend to think we need to find an application to fill out, but no—you need to find someone who knows what they’re doing. It’s like when you’re writing an article. I’m sure you want to talk to a knowledgeable person who can tell you exactly what to look for, right? Instead of going down 500 alleys and finding nothing, you want to know the best ones to explore.

And it’s hard to do this through Google. Maybe A.I. can help. I’ve used it myself. It’s fancy and entertaining, but when it comes to finding this kind of information—the non-commercial stuff—it’s not always from the heart. Our economy is two-thirds capitalism, but the other third is the “giving economy.” This includes nonprofits and government offices—places that give back to you, not take money from you.

So, for example, you can use ChatGPT. Even the free version will work. You could ask, “Show me 50 nonprofit organizations and government offices that help me get money or resources to start a business in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Give me the websites.” And you’ll get them. You won’t get 5 billion websites with people trying to sell you something—you’ll get useful information. I know this data so well that every time I use it, I can tell it’s the real stuff.

That excites me about A.I. But, like everything, once it gets too popular, someone will figure out how to make money off it, and then we’ll get all the nonsense again, like what happened with Google. Another wonderful site we have here in the U.S. is findhelp.org. You may have something similar in Canada. It’s a database of nonprofit organizations and government offices that give money and help for education, jobs, healthcare, legal services, and more. I put in my ZIP code and found 3,900 organizations in my area alone that help with all kinds of things.

I was helping someone with this and needed financial assistance. So, I put the term “financial assistance” and my ZIP code into findhelp.org. I have 250 nonprofit organizations in my ZIP code giving financial assistance. You can do the same thing—go to findhelp.org, put in your ZIP code, and you’ll see. It’s amazing. For example, if you need Help with rent, you’ll find 70 or so programs that help people with rent—not just one program.

That’s the problem. People hear about grants, try one place, and if it’s not for them, they give up and say, “There are no grants for me. Lesko must be an idiot!” But it doesn’t work that way. It’s like looking for a job—you have to knock on many doors, but you have to knock on the right doors. If you’re on Google, most of the doors you’re knocking on ask for money from you. You might only find one or two that want to give you money, and if they say no, you think it’s not for you.

That’s something I have to help people fight against. It’s the same with healthcare. I know that some developed countries don’t have free healthcare. You might think Canada’s doing just fine. I know, I know, that was my joke!

Jacobsen: Canada has exciting developments, like early national pharmacare and more. Canada is moving closer to a European-style extended model. There are also organizations working on key issues like reproductive rights and pharmacokinetics. They’re better equipped to discuss those topics. Still, your joke does highlight the difference between the U.S. and Canada, especially for middle- and lower-income people.

Lesko: For people in the U.S., having something like that is a dream. But here’s a website that can help: needyMeds.org. It’s a great resource to find low- and no-cost clinics, prescription drugs, and even grants to help with travel for medical care. They also provide resources for living expenses while you’re recovering. These aggregators are important to me because I don’t have to put all this information together—they do.

What’s interesting to me is what’s happening in Nevada. Medicaid is for low-income people who get good care while the income limit is there. Nevada is now including rental assistance as a health condition in Medicaid. If you don’t have a place to live, you’re more likely to get sick and end up in the emergency room, so they’re offering six months of rent as part of Medicaid coverage. That’s fascinating to me.

All of these things are a struggle, but thank God it gives me something to do until I die. It’s something bigger than myself to work on, which is the key in life—having something bigger than yourself. And that’s why narcissists have a frustrating life—they’re never working on something bigger than themselves. The only way to get out of that is to focus on something beyond yourself. I might have a bit of narcissism in me, too. I could easily get stuck in my head and never get out. Even at my age, though I don’t need to figure out how to feed myself anymore, I still ask, “How many people can I help?”

That’s why now, what I work on is love. I can’t run faster, get stronger, or get smarter—all that stuff is going downhill with age. But I can love harder. That’s something I can still improve on. That’s why I wear hearts now. I want to figure out how to love more deeply. Growing up in the fifties as a man, you couldn’t talk about love. If you said “love,” you had to marry the person! Especially to another man—you couldn’t say that. That’s only recently become more accepted. But now, I’m opening my heart, and even with LeskoHelp, I’m trying to love these people in a way that no one else can. The more you help others, the more your heart grows.

Lesko: Helping others is selfish because it feels so good. You’re not just doing something for them; you’re doing it for yourself. When your heart grows, you have a better life. Walking around with an open heart is the most interesting way to live.

Lesko: In the U.S., at least, not much in our society encourages an open heart. You’re supposed to be meaner, tougher, and better than everyone else. It’s too bad. When I started this journey of self-expression, I began by wearing these outfits. This is who I am inside, but I was never encouraged to show it. I lost much money at first because people didn’t want me on their T.V. shows. They’d say, “How can this guy dressed like a clown talk about finances?” But I knew this was me. And once I embraced that, more doors opened.

Lesko: The tough things in life are the real moments that shape you. Anyone can handle success—that’s easy. You get the money, go to the bank. There is no challenge there. But how do you handle failure? That’s the real test because it happens more often. I’ve written 100 books, but only 10 made money.

So, how do you deal with failure? That’s the common scenario—not “How do I invest $1,000,000?” That’s a nice problem to have, but it’s rare. That’s why my work with LeskoHelp is focused on sharing that understanding with others. We encourage the people I work with and the members to love and support one another.

This would’ve sounded ridiculous to me 20 or 30 years ago—maybe even a few years ago. But somehow, in my eighties, this idea of opening your heart has become important to me. Life doesn’t give you many chances for that, so you have to set it up yourself. I call it “throwing your party.” No one will throw a party for you—you must make it happen. It’s tough because everyone’s so protective. Even when you get advice from your loved ones, they often act as your biggest enemy. They want to protect you from failing, but failure is inevitable when you do something new. And that’s okay!

It has to be that way. Think about it: when you learn to walk or ride a bicycle, you’re going to fall on your ass a bunch of times before you get it right. So, it’s not wise to talk to loved ones when you’re doing something new because you’ll fail, and they’ll try to protect you. You can only say, “Yes, I know I’m going to fail,” because you must overcome that failure.

That failure opens up new things you couldn’t see until you got the stupid mistakes out of the way first. For example, getting kicked out of the Home Shopping Network cost me millions. But when that door closed, many windows opened that I didn’t even know existed.

Everyone told me, “Don’t give up that money—it’s stupid!” But it was from the heart. That’s why I believe your heart is smarter than your brain. But we don’t trust our hearts because we want to make a spreadsheet first and get expert advice. These experts don’t know what to do with their lives, so how can they tell you what to do with yours? They’re guessing just like everyone else. It’s silly how we run things in this country.

We’re all insecure, and professionals thrive on that insecurity. That’s why they must convince you they know the secret to charge more. 

Jacobsen: One of the leading causes of bankruptcy in the United States is medical bills, especially end-of-life care. Someone ends up paying for those bills, eventually.

Lesko: Absolutely. 

Jacobsen: If people are looking for help with those bills or are seeking methodologies to navigate that system, what can they do? Are there resources or strategies you can direct them to?

Lesko: Yes! There are things people can do, but often, we wait until the last moment to make these decisions. I had a member write to me about an emergency hospital visit where they didn’t have coverage, and they walked out with a $1,600 bill.

What we need to teach people is to ask how not to pay that bill. Every hospital in the United States cannot charge everyone because they receive government money. About 70% of the people who get a hospital bill in the U.S. shouldn’t have to pay it. Hospitals send the bills anyway because they’re businesses.

Lesko: But you have to know and ask. There are also nonprofit organizations that help you negotiate those bills and find government programs. One such organization is the PAN Foundation. They’ll help you navigate all that stuff. There are so many government programs available.

For instance, when Obamacare came in, about half of the people without healthcare were already eligible for existing programs but didn’t know it. That’s the problem—people don’t know about these programs and think they don’t have coverage. Another great resource is needyMeds.org. Before you go to the doctor, you can use that site to find doctors who won’t charge you because they’re already getting money from the government to provide free care.

But if you’re taken to a hospital by ambulance, and they bring you to their preferred hospital where they’re getting some commission, it’s over. However, we’ve now got regulations in place to prevent surprise medical bills, and there’s a government fund to help with that. The government has an 800 number you can call, and they’ll fight it for you for free. A good place to start finding resources like this is findhelp.org. Look under categories like “health care” and start making calls. You won’t find what you need immediately, but if you talk to enough people listed under healthcare there, you’ll find the right resource.

Try that over Google. The doctors who advertise on Google show up first, but on findhelp.org, everyone listed there doesn’t advertise and offers free services.

Another interesting thing we’re doing now—and I’m working on it myself—is giving back. Our small business isn’t big; it’s just a handful of people, but it’s so profitable that we give half the money back to members. Every month, we give away $70,000 to our paid members. They apply, and we distribute $70,000.

There’s also an organization—whose name escapes me—working with the government. What they do is buy old hospital debt for pennies on the dollar. When people don’t pay their hospital bills, it goes on their record, and then they can’t buy a house or a car because of that debt. This organization uses nonprofit or government money—say they get $10 million—and can buy $200 million of bad hospital debt with that. So, everyone in that ZIP code no longer has hospital debt. Instead of $200 million, they settle it for around $1 million.

It doesn’t solve the long-term problem, but it’s an interesting solution. If someone has a few thousand dollars and wants to help, they could give it to an organization like that and potentially clear the hospital debt of 1,000 people with just the snap of a finger. That’s one neat thing about the U.S.—we’re creative that way, even though we’re often shortsighted in addressing the root problems. We create answers that aren’t perfect but help after the fact.

Jacobsen: I want to be mindful of your time. Do you have any final core lessons to share from the last 49 years of working in this field, helping the public?

Lesko: For me, the open heart is so important now. Having fun is critical, too. If you’re not having fun, no one else will enjoy being around you, and they won’t feel love from you either. You have to have an open heart. People instinctively know if you’re genuine, which comes from being comfortable and not worried.

As a younger man, I don’t know if I could have done this as well because I was too focused on some success—which I didn’t even understand then. My success is measured by how much I can give before I die. There’s nothing else tangible you can take with you.

So, if you devote your life to helping people, even if you don’t feel like you have the skills to do that right now, remember that your heart is smarter than your brain. Make more decisions based on your heart. Use your brain to ensure you’re not going off a cliff, but follow your heart. You may not be successful, but at least you’ll have fun doing it. And honestly, even if you follow your brain, you might not be successful either, and you definitely won’t enjoy it as much.

Jacobsen: Is that enough? Matthew, thank you so much for your time today. We discussed LeskoHelp and some resources people can use if they need support, whether for minor or major issues.

Lesko: I have one more thing. People don’t always want to spend $20 to start, so try Lesko.com. It’s free! That’s a starter set, a free way to get your feet wet and see if this stuff works at all.

Jacobsen: Excellent. Thank you so much.

Lesko: You bet. Take care. Bye!

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