Mandisa Thomas on Secular Song, Art, and Activism

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2024/11/02

Mandisa Thomas (she/her/hers) is the founder and President of Black Nonbelievers. Although never formally indoctrinated into belief, Mandisa was heavily exposed to Christianity, Black Nationalism, and Islam. 

Mandisa has many media appearances, including CBS Sunday Morning, CNN.com, Playboy, The Humanist, and JET magazines. She has been a guest on podcasts such as NPR’s Code Switchand 1A and the documentaries Contradictionand My Week in Atheism. Mandisa serves on the Board for Humanist Global Charity and previously for American Atheists, the American Humanist Association, Foundation Beyond Belief (now GO Humanity), and the Secular Coalition for America.

In 2022, Mandisa was featured on the Atlanta billboard and newspaper ad for the Freedom From Religion Foundation’s “I’m Secular and I Vote” campaign. She has also received multiple honours, including the 2022 Wolfson Award, and is a co-recipient of the 2020 Harvard Humanist of the Year.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are here again with the wonderful Mandisa Thomas to discuss all things related to Black Nonbelievers. You’re on the cusp of a flight with Dan Barker from the Freedom From Religion Foundation. On paper, it’s business. Off paper, is it still business where you’re headed? 

Mandisa Thomas: [Laughing] Yes, it is. And it is more activism than just business. I’m going to the first-ever African Freethought Music and Arts Festival. Dan Barker and I will perform a version of Godless Gospel with some music students at the University of Lagos in Nigeria.

There will also be a talent competition, and I will be one of the judges. As the saying goes, “If you do what you love, it doesn’t feel like work.” I’m excited to be a part of this because it’s an important way for Black Nonbelievers to connect with the humanist community in Nigeria, bringing talent and creativity together and exploring how we can collaborate. 

Jacobsen: There is now a talent competition with monetary prizes. Will you be judging any of these?

Thomas: Yes, and I’m excited. However, I’m always a little nervous when I do things like this because I certainly don’t consider myself the best singer in the world. Sometimes I wonder if I’m even the best person to judge such a competition. Still, I’m excited about it because I have a good ear for music. I’m eager to see what these young people bring, especially when combining activism with creativity.

Jacobsen: What about the choir being brought over to present original music that will be or is part of an album featuring compositions by Dan and others? Could you call it American secular music?

Thomas: Yes. So, for Godless Gospel, Dan and I will be rehearsing with some of the students who will be singing with us, and we’ll determine how many students will be part of the choir during the festival. We plan to perform about three songs, and I’ll be rehearsing, working with, and teaching the students and other singers the songs we’ll be performing. We also have some recorded music we can practice with, and a piano will be there. Dan is an accomplished piano player and composer, so we’ll likely perform one song in a piano or acoustic version, and the rest will be sung along with the recorded music.

We have the song lyrics and the music, so we will spend a few intense days preparing with the other singers to ensure we deliver a great performance. Gospel music, in general, is a continuation of music that transcended the American slavery period and early African American musical traditions. Still, it also traces back to the African continent. African rhythms and musical styles have translated well into American music.

We’re looking forward to seeing how that connection plays out as we perform the current music and continue working on new music for the album.

Jacobsen: When was the last time you visited an African country? What kind of cultural and moral enrichment did you experience during that first trip, and what are your feelings before embarking on this second trip? I understand it has been quite some time since your last visit. Also, what are you hoping to gain from this trip?

Thomas: Absolutely. So, the first time I ever visited Africa was in Ghana. That was back in 1991 when I was 14 years old. The purpose of that trip was a youth trip where we visited different places of education in Accra and another major city, Kumasi, which was a Christian village. We received a good education during that trip and visited W.E.B. Du Bois’s home, where he relocated after leaving America. We visited the organization established in his honour. 

I was there with other teenagers my age, many of whom I had grown up with. It was fun, but as an American teenager in another country, There was a bit of naivete. We learned a lot, though, and it helped us grow. We also visited the slave castles of Cape Coast and Elmina, where captives were held before being put on ships for the transatlantic slave trade. That experience was horrifying, but we could comprehend its gravity even at that age.

Because I had grown up learning about Black history and culture, as well as institutional racism, it wasn’t completely foreign to me, but being there in person was impactful. I will take a similar tour as an adult visiting Nigeria, which is close to Ghana. I’ll see how much things have progressed in Nigeria, even though this is my first time there. I’ll also be reminded of why we do this work and why it’s so impactful for me and others in this activism, especially regarding lineage, history, and culture. We should never forget the horrific actions committed against people, which so many are now trying to revise or erase from history. These events are very personal to me.

It’s also meaningful because of our connections with people like Dr. Leo Igwe. This will be my third time seeing him in person.. I’ll also meet others with whom I’ve connected virtually, which will be fantastic. I hope to get new material from this trip to share with our members in the United States. I want to show what we can achieve by working with fellow free thinkers, humanists, and atheists across the diaspora. Additionally, I’m excited to be enriched by being in a new place. Lagos will be my first visit, and I’m eager to see the city and learn from the other speakers.

I’m looking forward to an enriching, educational, and inspirational experience. 

Jacobsen: Leo Igwe is a nexus; he’s involved in many things. It’s extremely impressive to see all he’s done over the last few years I’ve known him. We should also touch on Black Nonbelievers. What’s going on with the cruise this year, Mandisa?

Thomas: Yes, our annual BN SeaCon 2024 will take place from November 29th through December 5th, and we are still departing out of Miami, Florida. This year, we will be on Royal Caribbean’s Independence of the Seas. Some of our speakers include Chris Cameron, Candace Gorham, Kristie Puckett, an abolitionist from North Carolina, and Teddy Reeves, the Religion and Life Curator at the National Museum of African American History and Culture.

From there, we are also working on a Revival of Reason in March 2025. We hope to bring Godless Gospel back together with other speakers and presenters to host workshops on wellness for Black atheists and how they can get involved in activism. It’s important to emphasize the value of financially supporting organizations like Black Nonbelievers so we can continue to host events like this, sustain our sponsorships, and maintain our community activism and engagement. We also look forward to contributing to another African Free Thought Music and Arts Festival.

We have a lot of exciting things coming up! We will also be involved in the FORWARD Conference with the National Museum of African American History and Culture at the beginning of November. I submitted a paper to discuss Black Nonbelievers before that conference, which was accepted. So, I’ll present alongside other Black religious thought leaders and thinkers in general and showcase the changing landscape of religion in Black communities.

Jacobsen: That’s great! So, what do you think are some of the more nuanced areas of change in the religious space for African Americans—both for those in religious institutions and those who find that religion is no longer for them—and how do they come to organizations like Black Nonbelievers?

Thomas: Many younger people—mostly millennials, Gen Z and beyond—are moving away from traditional, fundamentalist religious practices. These practices don’t align well with their everyday lives or values. Even among religious individuals, there’s a growing realization that simply “praying on it” doesn’t work for everyone. So, more people find comfort in stepping away from these traditions despite their initial trepidation or apprehension.

When they come to organizations like Black Nonbelievers, they find affirmation, validation, and the resources they need to understand what it means to be nonreligious in real-time within their communities and cultures. It’s inspiring how many people are opening their eyes to the limitations of religion and finding alternative ways to build community, which has been impactful and inspiring.

Even if they don’t identify as atheists or humanists, they recognize the issues religion presents for our communities. It’s been eye-opening to see the shift in how people view activism and what they believe it should look like. Activism should be about action, coalition-building, and standing up for our rights as human beings.

We’re also reaching institutions like the National Museum of African American History and Culture, providing a framework for Black nonreligious representation, advocacy, and community. Though it’s still a growing movement and a work in progress, that’s how history is made. We’re fortunate to be part of this ever-growing change within our community.

Jacobsen: What do you consider the most heartwarming moment you’ve had this year or since we last talked?

Thomas: Oh my gosh, there have been so many. I recently had the opportunity to attend a Black women’s empowerment event co-sponsored by one of our partner organizations, Compassion & Choices. When the guest speaker, their special speaker, said that 2023 was a hard year for her, it hit so close to home for me.

I remember giving the representative for Compassion & Choices a huge hug because they continuously support our events. They are our major sponsor for BN SeaCon, and at that moment, she let me know that she still supports our organization and sees our work. It was so meaningful for her to tell me that we are helping them reshape how they reach out to people. Compassion & Choices focuses on medical aid for dying and end-of-life advocacy, and bringing those conversations to communities that need them is important.

It has helped them and others understand how to engage the larger population, especially those who no longer subscribe to fundamental religious practices. So, knowing that people see us, knowing that they recognize the work we do, and knowing we are connecting with people in meaningful ways has been incredibly heartwarming. This happened just in the past few days.

Jacobsen: What do you think about the end of the year and the political flip?

Thomas: For the end of the year and what’s coming up, it is important to donate to organizations like Black Nonbelievers, particularly during the holiday season, but all year round. In this political climate, it’s crucial. Granted, we don’t endorse specific candidates but always encourage people to vote for their values. It’s important to ensure that we don’t vote people into office who use their religious beliefs to impose on public policy because we’re seeing that happen a lot here in the United States.

It will take individuals and organizations working together to prevent that. The country doesn’t need to become a theocracy; we must continue fighting against that.

Jacobsen: Also, regarding critical moments in this election season or cycle, what about organizations where you might disagree on 10%, 20%, or even 5% of things? But we all agree on the importance of combating incursions into politics and the public space, where we all value the separation of religious institutions and government. What would your message be to them, in terms of targeted objectives, about staying on the same page and working together despite our disagreements?

Thomas: We need to continue to look out for one another and ensure that, as a community, we affirm all human beings. Even if we don’t agree on every issue, we need to be united in standing up for the values we all share—especially when fighting against the merging of religion and politics.

In a way that we are not discounting the voices still marginalized in our communities, it is important to make sure they are listening to us, especially for larger organizations. Many issues will impact us shortly, and we have to be vigilant. We will need support from those organizations and individuals to continue doing the crucial grassroots work that often doesn’t receive the resources and support it deserves. We must continue learning from each other, particularly from the people on the ground who are making those changes.

Black Nonbelievers IS a grassroots organization. Still, I encourage more of our fellow organizations to adopt a grassroots approach alongside us. This allows them to see firsthand how things can be impacted and to continue working together toward better solutions.

Jacobsen: I can vouch for this. You also have wonderful swag. So, if people want to make donations, they can also get some merchandise in return!

Thomas: Absolutely. We accept donations as a 501(c)(3) organization, but you can also purchase merchandise. We have Black Nonbelievers swag, including a new shirt we debuted on our website with a quote from Edith Gray, our newest co-host on In the Cut. So, donate and purchase online through our website to support and represent our organization. It also encourages others to support us and our work.

Jacobsen: Excellent. Mandisa, thank you so much for your time today. I appreciate it, as always.

Thomas: Thank you.

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