Åsa Heuser on Brazil’s Humanists and Evangelicals

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2024/10/23

Åsa Heuser is a Finnish member of Humanistas Brasil. She discusses her move to Brazil, the challenges of promoting humanism in a religious country, and tensions between individual freedom and social responsibility. Heuser highlights issues with evangelical groups, including religious discrimination, financial abuse, and lack of public understanding of secular humanism.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So today, we are here with Åsa Heuser because she is Finnish and a member of Humanistas Brasil. Quick question: How did you go from Finland to Brazil regarding organizational membership?

Åsa Heuser: I came to Brazil as a teenager because my father got a job here. He brought the family along, and that’s how I ended up in Brazil. I stayed, married, had children, and now I have grandchildren. I’ve been living in Brazil for over 50 years.

Jacobsen: What are the main issues facing Brazilian humanism? What do you view as the more positive aspects of community activities?

Heuser: It is challenging to get people to pay attention to what humanism is because it is relatively new in Brazil. It’s in its early stages, and getting the message across is difficult. Secular morality is a strange concept in Brazil’s religious mindset, so spreading the idea and getting more people involved is challenging. Even those familiar with humanism and identifying as humanists need help getting others interested.

That’s one issue. However, we have a group on WhatsApp and maintain profiles on Instagram and Facebook. One of the members even wrote a book, which is being made available to those who want to read it.

We try to share information about humanism on social media so people can learn more about it, but it spreads slowly.

Jacobsen: What community activities do members participate in online or in person?

Heuser: Meeting in person is challenging because Brazil is such a large country. When members live in the same region, they try to meet up, but most discussions happen on WhatsApp.

We discuss ethical issues and various aspects of humanism, exploring how we can apply these principles. We also have a separate group for board members and an open group for anyone interested. However, sometimes, people join the open group without fully understanding the concept of humanism, leading to disagreements and some tension.

Jacobsen: Let me interject here with a relevant example: There was a moment with the South African secular group, the South African Secular Society (SASS). It went like this:

…we can register marriage officers. We have had various applications from theists. We point people at the SASS mission statement and ethos, which includes the naturalist worldview.

We say very early on, “Do you support the SASS mission and ethos?” The only choice is, “Yes.” We say, “Are you prepared to do marriage ceremonies free of supernatural content?” The only answer is, “Yes.”

We say, “Are you prepared to do same-sex and heterosexual sex marriages?” The only answer is, “Yes.” There is, “Are you prepared to do counselling?” It is an optional one. Anyway, people will blithely skim through these, “Yes, yes, yes, carry on, no problems.”

Then we ask for motivation, “Why do you want to become a secular marriage officer?” At that point, we can quite easily get things like, “Oh, I am a pastor at so-and-so congregation. I wanted to marry my congregants.”

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Raubenheimer: We also get, “I am a prominent member of x, y, z church.” We don’t see it is in the motivation, but we also ask them for sample ceremonies.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Raubenheimer: For example, in fact, we had one very recently. I hadn’t gone through the ceremony when we copied it in. We put this one on Google Docs, so the whole team could see it. But I started reading it.

And oops! This chap is mentioning God!

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Raubenheimer: He has 4 citations of God! He has got several references to several biblical verses.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Raubenheimer: Now, in fact, Wynand can tell you more about how this one got through the cracks. He set up various protections. But due to technical website issues, he turned it off. So, the person had got through right to that point.

I emailed him to say, “I noticed that you’ve ticked all the boxes saying you’re a secular person and everything else. You’ve agreed to the terms and conditions and everything else. But I see that you’re citing God and making biblical references in your marriage ceremonies. Can you clarify for us?”

He writes back and says, “Cancel my application, I am a Christian and I believe in GOD!”

[Wynand’s Meijer’s wife laughing in the background – not part of the conversation, but listening into it, obviously.]

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Raubenheimer: I wrote back saying, “Please tell us how you got that far through our form, so that we can make it easier and waste their time.” I didn’t mention wasting our time, which was obvious as well.

I did not hear back from him. The interesting thing is, this man is an attorney.

Jacobsen: Oh my goodness.

There was some confusion; unfortunately, the situation escalated into frustration.

So, that can happen in humanist groups with a complete misunderstanding, like, “How can you live without the divine?”

Heuser: Yes, most people don’t understand atheism. They simply can’t.

So when they come into the community, they don’t necessarily understand what that implies. Recently, there was a guy who called himself an “ANCAP.” Do you know what that means?

Jacobsen: No. 

Heuser: It refers to an anarchist capitalist.

Jacobsen: Oh yes, right. 

Heuser: So he was there, arguing that humanist rules were authoritarianism and that people should be free to do whatever they want. However, the group argued that we must also think about the collective.

Yes, we can’t only think about our freedom. But he was adamant, insisting, “No, we should be free, even to avoid vaccination,” and that goes against humanism. Capitalism, especially in that form, goes against humanism.

Jacobsen: Yes, there are certain strands of that, and the Amsterdam Declaration stipulates “social responsibility,” balancing individual freedom with social responsibility.

Heuser: Exactly. I think you can’t be individualistic—it’s absurd. We are very clear about being secular humanists, so that point is clear.

Jacobsen: Yes, but I’ve noticed that some people have started branding mechanisms that strip away the word “secular” for simplicity, or even “humanism” itself. I understand the context, but secular humanism must remain clear.

Heuser: In Brazil, we need to make that distinction very clear.

Jacobsen: Especially with the rise of evangelicals and the relative decline of Catholics, how has this shift in religious dynamics impacted secular organizations and movements in Brazil?

Heuser: There are practical issues. For example, some politicians try to pass laws based on religion. Some propose that the Bible be read in schools before classes start or that students pray in class.

Jacobsen: So, does your group directly intervene in these issues?

Heuser: We don’t have the power to intervene directly, but independent lawyers can step in. They file lawsuits to counter these attempts to impose religion in a secular state.

Jacobsen: How often do these bills succeed when proposed in parliament or local government levels?

Heuser: If nobody opposes them, they succeed. There was a case on the national level where they tried to impose that all libraries must have a Bible. Someone said, “Well, you can’t obligate all libraries to have a copy of the Bible. Why not include all the other religious books that exist?” Of course, it’s not forbidden to have a Bible, but you can’t impose it.

Jacobsen: It’s a library, so they likely already have one in many cases. I don’t think there are many libraries without a Bible because it’s so mainstream.

Heuser: Yes, but there was still that attempt to impose it. 

Jacobsen: There’s a joke in North America about why all these hotels have Gideon Bibles. Also, people wonder, “What is a Gideon?” So, these sorts of jokes quietly float around in North American circles.

Heuser: Yes, it’s a similar orientation.

Jacobsen: What do you think are some of the serious violations of equality of rights, especially as you’re noting, primarily by evangelicals in Brazil?

Heuser: Yes, it’s widespread. For example, we have African religions here, like Candomblé. These evangelicals are fiercely opposed to them. So, these groups, these African religions, suffer a lot of discrimination and even violence from evangelical groups. That’s a serious violation of the secular state.

Jacobsen: Are the authorities doing anything to defend them?

Heuser: Unfortunately, I don’t see much action from the authorities defending them. It’s sad.

Jacobsen: Are there ethnic tensions related to this since Candomblé is probably more associated with black communities?

Heuser: It used to be primarily a religion of black people, but nowadays, there are many white people involved as well. So, it’s no longer just a racial issue but also a religious one. These evangelical groups have targeted Candomblé, calling it a religion of the devil, literally. Some extreme pastors use that language.

Jacobsen: Yes, I’ve heard similar rhetoric in North America, particularly in the U.S. Pastors claim that people who argue for the separation of church and state or try to stop violations of this principle in public institutions are demonic. What seems like metaphors to outsiders aren’t metaphors to them.

Heuser: Yes, I know. 

Jacobsen: They talk about spiritual battles. 

Heuser: That’s exactly what happens here in Brazil.

Jacobsen: What’s the consequence for ordinary people? How does it affect them?

Heuser: Many people give a lot of money to these churches. Some churches even tell people to stop taking their medication. I’ve heard of cases where people died because they followed that advice. It’s a serious problem.

Jacobsen: That’s truly alarming.

Heuser: Yes, it’s a serious issue.

Jacobsen: So, are these evangelicals more on the charismatic end of things?

Heuser: Yes. They have these cult-like gatherings, with chanting and everything you can imagine. Then, they become so passionate that you can’t reason with them anymore.

Jacobsen: So, do common people become very angry and upset?

Heuser: Yes, for example, the former president had a motto, something like “God above all.” It was like “God, homeland, and patriotism” or something like that. These churches don’t pay taxes, so they are exempt from land, buildings, and services taxes.

Jacobsen: Are all of their assets and activities tax-exempt?

Heuser: Yes, exactly. In Brazil, some of these churches are suspected to be involved with criminal groups like drug traffickers. That can lead to the possibility of money laundering because they receive all this money from their congregations, and there’s no accountability. They can report receiving as much as they want, and some of that money might come from other sources, like drug trafficking.

Jacobsen: That’s alarming. 

Heuser: And for drug addicts, these churches often run centers meant to help them. Still, instead, they’re being brainwashed by religious organizations. And under Bolsonaro’s presidency, they were trying to get public resources to fund these centers, so they benefited from all sides. They received public funding to run these centers, which they used to brainwash people who were struggling with drug addiction.

Jacobsen: Typically, these organizations are led by one man at the top, who often institutionalizes communal or individual abuse. Most public awareness of these issues comes from front-page news stories about sexual violence, assault, or illicit affairs that don’t align with biblical mandates. Often, many men and women within these communities are complicit in protecting the leader’s image.

Heuser: Yes, that’s exactly what we see here in Brazil. On the other hand, the general public is so brainwashed that if you say these accusations are false, they’ll believe they are false. The fake news problem is so widespread here that people have been led to believe only in sources favouring the powerful—these leaders. If the leaders say it’s a lie, the public will believe it’s a lie, and they won’t believe the truth.

Jacobsen: What happens to the women in these communities, especially when they are more often subjected to coercive situations or sexual violence? It seems many institutions are coercive, pressuring people to give finances even when they’re in poverty or facing economic abuse.

Heuser: Yes, it’s a serious problem. Women, in particular, are often coerced, and the financial abuse in these institutions is rampant. Even those in poverty are expected to give what little they have to support the church, reinforcing economic abuse in these communities.

Jacobsen: So, are these evangelicals more on the charismatic end of things?

Heuser: Yes. They have these cult-like gatherings, with chanting and everything you can imagine. Then, they become so passionate that you can’t reason with them anymore.

Jacobsen: So, do common people become very angry and upset?

Heuser: Yes, for example, the former president had a motto, something like “God above all.” It was like “God, homeland, and patriotism” or something like that. These churches don’t pay taxes, so they are exempt from land, buildings, and services taxes.

Jacobsen: Are all of their assets and activities tax-exempt?

Heuser: Yes, exactly. In Brazil, many of these churches are also involved with drug trafficking. Some are engaged in money laundering because they receive all this money from their congregations, and there’s no accountability. They can report receiving as much as they want, and some of that money might come from other sources, like drug trafficking.

Jacobsen: That’s alarming. And for drug addicts, these churches often run centers meant to help them. Still, instead, they’re being brainwashed by religious organizations.

Heuser: Yes, they brainwash them. And under Bolsonaro’s presidency, they were trying to get public resources to fund these centers, so they benefited from all sides. They received public funding to run these centers, which they used to brainwash people who were struggling with drug addiction.

Jacobsen: Typically, these organizations are led by one man at the top, who often institutionalizes communal or individual abuse. Most public awareness of these issues comes from front-page news stories about sexual violence, assault, or illicit affairs that don’t align with biblical mandates. Often, many men and women within these communities are complicit in protecting the leader’s image.

Heuser: Yes, that’s exactly what we see here in Brazil. On the other hand, the general public is so brainwashed that if you say these accusations are false, they’ll believe they are false. The fake news problem is so widespread here that people have been led to believe only in sources favouring the powerful—these leaders. If the leaders say it’s a lie, the public will believe it’s a lie, and they won’t believe the truth.

Jacobsen: What happens to the women in these communities, especially when they are more often subjected to coercive situations or sexual violence? It seems many institutions are coercive, pressuring people to give finances even when they’re in poverty or facing economic abuse.

Heuser: Yes, it’s a serious problem. Women, in particular, are often coerced, and the financial abuse in these institutions is rampant. Even those in poverty are expected to give what little they have to support the church, reinforcing economic abuse in these communities.

Jacobsen: Few people with more resources are willing to finance these kinds of organizations because they don’t see any direct benefit. The biggest boosts I’ve heard of are when people die and leave a portion of their will to a humanist organization. That has been the largest financial support for these organizations, outside government-funded ones, like the Norwegian humanists. The Norwegian humanists receive government funding and function just as well as the churches—sometimes even better.

Jacobsen: When I spoke with them in Copenhagen in 2023, they wanted less government funding, which I’ve never heard from a religious institution. It’s almost funny—”We want less money.” They could build institutions, donate to neighbouring countries, and support surrounding communities. It’s impressive.

There’s been a lot more conversation about the differences in funding between the North and South and how that affects growth rates. In North America and Western Europe, for example, humanists advocate for many things—such as healthcare, pharmacare, and education systems—that are already established. These regions often have lower correctional rates as well. These are the things that humanists value and aim for globally.

Heuser: There are differences, but those things are central to what we want to achieve.

Jacobsen: I’ve noticed that the global humanists I’ve met from the Global South tend to be more resilient because they face tougher circumstances. They have much to teach the Global North about creativity, especially since they must be more resourceful with limited resources.

Heuser: I agree. 

Jacobsen: To help the overall humanist movement, more financial support should be provided from the Global North to the Global South. However, the knowledge exchange should be bidirectional, particularly regarding creativity—humanists from the Global South can offer valuable insights. What creative solutions or activities have you found while working, living, and consulting in the southern regions? One thing I’ve noticed, similar to Brazil and Canada, is that distance is a big challenge. Some communities have started doing online discussion groups and WhatsApp groups. 

Heuser: We have a WhatsApp group for everyone, and it helps people connect.

Jacobsen: So, that’s been effective?

Heuser: Yes, it works well. People often use it to find out how many humanists are in their city and arrange local meetings.

Jacobsen: That sounds like a good solution for connecting across large distances. What would you mainly recommend for humanist organizations to grow, become more resilient, and handle challenges such as economic, legal, and community violence? What are the key issues humanist organizations might face?

Heuser: As I mentioned, we are so few that we only have a little power to do a lot. But the most important thing would be to spread the idea more, to get more people to understand humanism and what we propose. That would make a difference because not all atheists are humanists. There are many atheists, but they don’t necessarily have the idea of an ethical system based on humanism.

Jacobsen: Yes, that’s a very good point.

Heuser: The main focus is getting the message out to reach more people.

Jacobsen: There’s also potential for building inter-belief or inter-organizational partnerships. Many people, even if they don’t explicitly talk about humanism in their daily lives, work, or activism, align with the core values of humanism. Many human rights organizations, for example, do work that reflects humanist principles, even if they don’t call it that.

Heuser: Yes.

Jacobsen: Feminist organizations as well, especially when it comes to addressing issues like sexual violence, which is something that often overlaps with humanist concerns.

Heuser: Right. For example, in evangelical communities, when women go to their pastor for help, they’re often told to pray to God for their husbands to change. That’s the only advice they get—no real help. They don’t help her. They tell her to endure it, not to complain.

Jacobsen: And issues like femicide—the rates tend to be higher in these communities, correct?

Heuser: Yes, the rates of femicide and domestic violence are quite high, especially in evangelical groups.

Jacobsen: What role can humanists play in addressing these issues? Has there been any advocacy to slow it down?

Heuser: Unfortunately, as a small group, we don’t have much power to interfere with these issues on a large scale. If we had more people, we could do something. But as it stands, our influence is limited. But there are things humanists could do if they had more numbers. For example, I know of one humanist celebrant in Brazil who performs humanist ceremonies. Even though he’s not a formal group member, when someone asks about humanist ceremonies, I refer them to him.

Jacobsen: That’s great to hear. There are small wins like that. Thank you so much for your time today. Do you have any final reflections before we wrap up?

Heuser: Not really; I’ve given you as much information as I could. It was less than you expected, but if you have more questions in the future, feel free to reach out.

Jacobsen: Absolutely. We’ll stay in touch. Thank you again.

Heuser: Thank you. Goodbye.

Jacobsen: Goodbye.

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