Dr. Nicholas Jenner on Codependency Recovery

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2024/10/17

In an upcoming interview with Dr. Nicholas Jenner, a seasoned therapist and coach with over 20 years of experience, we explore his new program, “Self Leadership for Codependents.” Dr. Jenner discusses his expertise in helping women break free from codependent relationships, fostering emotional independence, and embracing personal autonomy. He shares his compassionate approach, rooted in Internal Family Systems therapy and practical tools, offering a transformative path toward healthier relationships and self-growth.

Dr. Nicholas Jenner is a counseling psychotherapist and the founder of Boundaries of the Soul Therapy LTD. With over 20 years of experience, he specializes in codependency recovery and other mental health issues. Subscribe to Dr Jenner Podcast – Self-leadership For Codependents

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So today, we are here with Dr. Nicholas Jenner to talk about his new program and some more. He specializes in codependency, with an emphasis on women, though men are affected by it as well. I want to begin with two foundational points before we delve into the core of today’s interview. First, what is codependency? Second, what is an important consideration regarding how this issue affects men and women, based on your professional experience?

Dr. Nicholas Jenner: Thank you, Scott. I’m happy to be here. The first question is complex because there are many definitions of codependency. Generally speaking, as we understand it today, codependency involves prioritizing others’ needs at the expense of one’s own to maintain relationships. While this may seem generous, it is often a way to control the situation and keep others happy to feel secure in the relationship.

Codependent people tend to please and enable others to avoid conflict or rejection. We’ll explore this in more depth as the conversation progresses. As for your second question, codependency can affect anyone, though it’s more commonly observed in women. However, men are also susceptible to it. In my experience working with individuals and couples, it is prevalent in various cultures and social backgrounds. Codependency doesn’t discriminate based on gender, country, or culture.

There’s also the aspect of childhood experiences, which we can discuss later. 

Jacobsen: Now, in terms of predecessors in the field, there are certainly influential figures. Are people like Eric Berne, who developed Transactional Analysis, and others who contributed to research on codependency part of it?

Jenner: It’s important to note that the concept of codependency initially emerged in the context of addiction recovery, particularly in relationships where one partner was addicted to substances. Around 30 to 40 years ago, the term “co-alcoholic” was used to describe individuals who were in relationships with alcoholics, and it was believed they enabled their partner’s addiction. There’s an old anecdote about a woman complaining about her husband’s drinking yet keeping beer in the fridge to keep him from going to the bar.

Over the past 20 years, research on codependency has expanded beyond addiction. It now includes behaviours within relationships where one person relies excessively on another for emotional support. I came across the concept of codependency about 15 years ago, particularly in the context of “love addiction,” which became more widely discussed in the media at that time. Codependency is now recognized as a significant behavioural pattern in relationships and often stems from childhood experiences.

As for your question on pioneers in the field, one of the challenges with codependency is that it needs to be formally recognized as a psychological disorder. It doesn’t appear in the DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders), so there is no official clinical diagnosis. However, several influential figures have contributed to the understanding of codependency, such as Pia Mellody, who introduced the concept of “facing codependence,” Melody Beattie, whose work on recovery from codependency is widely recognized, and Ross Rosenberg, who explored the connection between codependency and narcissistic relationships.

These are all people who know a lot about codependency. 

Jacobsen: How do you see this manifest in a therapeutic setting, in a professional, controlled environment, for people who happen to have this as a psychological factor in their overall profile?

Jenner: Of course. I usually see them in the first consultation. Generally, because codependency starts in childhood, we can often trace it back by assessing that period. Most people who struggle with codependency have a similar type of childhood experience.

Now, it’s different for everyone. Still, a typical codependent family dynamic often includes an overworked, overwhelmed mother and an emotionally distant father. This pattern is quite common. However, it can be any family structure where a child grows up without forming a strong connection with their caregivers. I once read that if you didn’t have a meaningful connection with a caregiver, you’re likely to become codependent as an adult.

This is where codependency begins. Many have trouble remembering key details when talking to someone about their childhood. Still, through careful exploration, you can identify where these codependent patterns and traits began to emerge. Codependency often develops due to two types of trauma: relational trauma and developmental trauma. Relational trauma involves learning about relationships from parents, whether those lessons are healthy or not. Developmental trauma refers to any event that interrupts a child’s natural progression through normal developmental stages.

In addition, there’s a Freudian concept known as “repetition compulsion,” which suggests that as adults, people seek out relationships to try to resolve issues from early childhood. We can examine those patterns, types of relationships, and childhood experiences to determine if someone is codependent.

Jacobsen: What about the prospects for self-regulation of codependency as a psychological and social trait in adults—let’s say, people who are fully cognitively developed, 25 and older? How can men and women overcome or manage the typically well-established pathways by that point in life?

Jenner: Absolutely. You’re right to bring that up. I meet many codependents who are aware of their issues, but the key challenge is moving from awareness to action. Awareness alone is not enough; action is required to manage codependency.

In the program I’ve developed for lifetime access, a 13-week audio series, we guide participants from codependent awareness to codependent action. If I may, I’ll explain more about that as I answer your question. When we reach the action phase, it can be summed up in two words: personal autonomy.

Personal autonomy is crucial, both for the individual and within relationships. In a typical codependent relationship, you often find an enmeshed dynamic where two people are so entangled that it becomes dysfunctional. One partner may be emotionally distant, while the codependent partner tries to control the shared space in the relationship. This push-pull dynamic is a hallmark of codependent relationships.

Jenner: And they tend to forget everything outside of that relationship. They become engrossed and entangled with each other. For me, the end goal of any codependent work is personal autonomy. This means seeing yourself as an individual with a healthy sense of self.

It would be best to have your hobbies, pastimes, and friends. You must have your purpose in life and allow the other person to do the same. This is critical because codependents typically do not. Then, a special space must be reserved for the relationship, balancing “me time” and “us time.”

Jacobsen: What is the path from a strong form of codependency to healthier relationships and a better self-concept?

Jenner: That’s a complex question, even though it sounds simple. It depends on the individual. You have to realize that codependency is not love. I often have couples coming into therapy saying, “We think one of us is codependent, but we love each other.” My thought is, “You don’t love each other.” As a codependent, you don’t truly know what love is because codependency is about control. Codependency is controlling, so it depends on the person and their willingness to change.

It also depends on what type of codependent they are. Codependency is a generic term, but there are various types: controlling codependents, avoidant codependents, enabling codependents, and people-pleasing codependents. Interestingly, there’s also a masochistic codependent who can be seen as the ultimate victim.

All these factors influence how long recovery might take. I think that there’s no classic “recovery” from codependency. It’s not as simple as taking a pill and feeling better. It’s about managing your daily life, staying present, focusing on yourself, and doing the internal work.

Jacobsen: What about self-help exercises, journaling, or meditation? How do those practices help with self-regulation and grounding in the present moment?

Jenner: Those are perfect exercises. The program I wrote includes meditation, and every audio session includes a journaling prompt to complete over the week. In therapy, I always encourage people to journal. It’s incredibly useful for grounding.

Meditation is also something I frequently use in therapy. Breathing exercises lead to my main method, Internal Family Systems Therapy (IFS) or parts work combined with inner child work. I use these techniques to dig into childhood experiences and the past to facilitate healing.

Jacobsen: What do you find is the biggest sticking point in the therapy process for individuals with codependency?

Jacobsen: That jump between awareness and action—many codependents get stuck in this process. Most people who come into therapy say, “I am codependent.” They’ve learned this through research, reading books, or perhaps a therapist or someone else told them.

They are aware of what codependency is and where it originated. They recognize their childhood patterns and can say, “Yes, this happened, and my symptoms match what I’ve read.” The big leap, of course, is moving from awareness to action.

The key is applying all that knowledge and awareness to create a new life. You need to shift that awareness from the mind to the body and take action. That’s the biggest challenge I see.

Because codependency is often tied to relationships, a common sticking point is when a codependent individual is alone. They might say, “I’m never going to have another relationship. I’ll focus on myself.” But once they meet someone, the codependent tendencies tend to reemerge.

So, the focal point of therapy is helping someone become aware of their codependency and take meaningful action. Guiding them through that process is the muddy terrain we, as therapists, must navigate.

Jacobsen: What is your most practical advice for people struggling with this issue in their day-to-day lives?

Jenner: My most practical advice would be to recognize that you’re codependent, acknowledge that you tend to control relationships, that you have an external focus, and that you need to shift that work inward.

Also, understand that if you want to have a healthy relationship with someone, you must do the necessary inner work. Codependents often spend much of their time in denial. In my program, I address this at length.

And to be honest, it’s easy to be codependent because you’re seen as the “good egg.” You’re the one who does everything for everyone, and people come to you. It is challenging to give up that control. But the reality is, if you want a good relationship with a healthy person, you need to do the work.

This means shifting your focus from external sources of validation to internal growth.

Jacobsen: Suppose you were to compare two healthy people in a relationship with two codependent people. How would those relationships look and differ?

Jenner: Two healthy people in a relationship have personal autonomy. They have independence and interdependence within the relationship, meaning they rely on each other in a balanced way. They are individuals who are comfortable with themselves and can support each other without losing their own identity.

Now, such relationships are rare. The prevalence of codependency in relationships is quite high. Two healthy people are happy to be independent. They don’t feel threatened when their partner spends time with others or pursues personal interests. They nurture the relationship while respecting each other’s individuality.

Two codependent people, on the other hand, usually don’t work well together. It’s like trying to push two magnets together. There will be a lack of trust and blurred boundaries, and the relationship will often be tense.

Jenner: They will isolate themselves within the relationship, and their life outside will wither.

Jacobsen: What is the lifespan of a codependent relationship? If these relationships are ultimately bound to self-destruct for most people, what’s the timeline? I’m curious.

Jenner: This is an interesting question because codependent relationships can last a long time. Codependents are hypervigilant, and they tend to attract emotionally distant people, creating a push-pull dynamic. Let’s bring in the concept of repetition compulsion. Codependents often try to fix earlier relationships through their current ones. This makes them hypervigilant, ensuring they provide what their partner needs to feel secure. This can sustain the relationship for many years, even decades.

Even when codependent couples come to therapy, the obvious issues may be in front of them, but they often don’t see it. So, these relationships either implode quickly or can last a long time due to denial, avoidance, and a constant sense of “we’re okay”—when, in fact, they are not.

Jacobsen: Have the rates of codependency gone up or down over the last few decades?

Jenner: Awareness of codependency has certainly increased, but I need to find out whether the rates of actual codependency have changed. I’ve seen claims suggesting that up to 80% of the global population is codependent in some way, though I wouldn’t go that far. However, it is very prevalent. What has increased is awareness, and the concept of codependency is evolving. It’s being applied not only to romantic relationships but also to the workplace, friendships, and family dynamics, especially between parents and children.

Codependency is everywhere. From my experience working with clients, I see a lot of codependent behaviour in both the people I work with and their surrounding relationships. However, determining whether the rate of codependency has increased is difficult. There isn’t much formal monitoring of it.

Jacobsen: You mentioned earlier that there are gender aspects to codependency. What about race, age, or culture? Do those factors influence how codependency manifests, regardless of its variety or severity?

Jenner: Yes, codependency can manifest across all demographics—race, age, culture, creed. However, in cultures where men are dominant, and women are taught to be submissive, codependency is more prevalent. We don’t need to name specific cultures. Still, it’s clear that in societies where men hold more power and women are expected to be subservient, codependency thrives.

Jacobsen: So, would there be some real codependency there?

Jenner: Yes, definitely. But, in the Western world, codependency doesn’t have limits. It doesn’t matter your age, race, creed, or colour—codependency doesn’t discriminate.

Jacobsen: What are your biggest lessons over two decades of working in this field?

Jenner: The main thing I’ve learned is that when codependents come into therapy, they’re often filled with hopelessness. Some don’t know what’s wrong with them; some don’t think anything is wrong, and others believe everything is wrong.

I want to give anyone coming into therapy the message that there is hope. Over the past two decades, I’ve seen many people change their lives once they realize that by taking action, they can lead a good life, build healthy relationships, and surround themselves with good people. So, that’s one key lesson—there’s always hope for codependents.

On the other side of the coin, if you look at people with narcissistic tendencies—without labelling everyone as a narcissist—it’s not as easy to work with them. But for codependents, there’s always hope. That’s the most important thing I’ve learned in these two decades.

Jacobsen: In the life of a therapist, especially when specializing in areas like narcissism, codependency, or borderline personality disorder, do you find that you, as a therapist, learn things about yourself while working with others?

Jenner:I can only speak for myself, but I learn something about myself when working with clients. As I mentioned earlier, I recognize myself as a codependent. I’ve guided people through codependency based on my own experiences and mistakes in relationships. I know what it feels like to be codependent.

However, that doesn’t make me a teacher—I’m also a learner. I learn from my clients. I resonate with their experiences and am always willing to help them through their struggles.

If you don’t mind me talking about my program again, which comes with lifetime access to the content, its core is a blend of my personal experience as a codependent and my professional experience working with codependents. It covers the key aspects of codependency—where it originates, what it looks like, and the different types. From there, it moves through the core challenges of codependency, such as the lack of boundaries and the drama triangle, and how to address them.

So, yes, I learn from my clients, and it’s an incredible experience to witness someone who starts off feeling hopeless and emotional in the first session grow much stronger as they begin to turn the focus inward. It’s truly inspiring.

Jacobsen: Dr. Jenner, thank you for the opportunity and your time today.

Jenner: Thank you, Scott. It was nice to meet you.

Jacobsen: Nice to meet you, too.

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