Dr. Alon Milwicki: Extensive Plumb of Antisemitism
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2024/08/22
*Updated August 23, 2024.*
Dr. Alon Milwicki is a senior research analyst in the Intelligence Project at the Southern Poverty Law Center.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are here with Dr. Alon Milwicki. So, I am from Canada. I live in the rural areas outside of Vancouver while you are in Texas. I say “Vancouver” because that is the common city international people will know, but I live in a smaller semi-tourist/semi-retirement community now, temporarily. So, anyway, I will open with a Canadian apology for the Proud Boys. It seems polite in an extensive series. Gavin McInnes, as far as I know, is Canadian. Then, he moved to the United States to spread the hateful ideology.
Dr. Alon Milwicki: Apology accepted.
Jacobsen: That’s point one. Point two, my hometown has Trinity Western University. Its closest comparison to an American ear would be Liberty University. It’s the largest private university in Canada, and it’s evangelical-based. They have a covenant for the community that everyone must abide by until they graduate or fail. It was controversial, super controversial. I did some interviews with people and wrote some articles about it, too. Much silly stuff is happening in the town and the township, and much ignorance stems from pseudoscience and religiosity–true enough.
They tried to get a law school, but the Supreme Court said no. The decision was seven to two, so it was an overwhelming loss based on some LGBTQ issues they had in that covenant. They have goofy creationists debating creationists on campus over scientific truth. I interviewed more reasonable pastors from there, who had those who contrasted their views. So, it vividly portrays the American mind of where I grew up when it was five minutes up the road. So, I’m now out of there. It makes sense–me growing up there–because I look like I was in an alternate universe leading a Christian youth group or a member of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir.
While looking at some of my town’s history, I found out that only a few years ago, there was a group called the Northern Order. They presented themselves as either a white nationalist or a white supremacist group at Fort Langley National Historic Site. They took pictures, about a dozen ‘brave’ young men decided to take the photo and then blur their faces(Facebook).
They had a Facebook page and defined themselves as wanting to preserve something akin to Anglo-Saxon European stock, heritage, etc. So, that’s a common theme in North American history right up to the present. Naturally, it’s a statistical phenomenon: some rise, some fall, some are long-term, and some are short-term. So, antisemitism has been a focus of many groups. Let’s start with definitions; what is the most appropriate way to define antisemitism? What is the source for that? How do these groups stand?
Milwicki: I will give you the way we talk about it. The biggest problem is within the question. Defining antisemitism as something static is problematic. It’s the same way that defining racism is problematic because it changes. It changes depending on the period we’re talking about, who’s talking about it, and how it’s being discussed.
It also depends on the society. Sure, there are commonalities. It boils down to dehumanizing and attacking Jewish people. But when you look to give it a finite definition, you will run into problems. What antisemitism means today is not what antisemitism meant before October 7; you can be damn sure of that. You go back 100 years, bring it into a European or Australian context, then it becomes something different. But I would direct you to this:
That’s the way that I would say antisemitism is not defined but should be talked about. It is a starting point for a discussion about not so much what it is but how it operates and why it matters, if that makes sense. What this does and differentiates from other organizations is that we have in bold right there: the way to combat and understand antisemitism is not by defining it but by discussing it, understanding how it affects people, and looking at how it is presenting itself right now. This document is going to be updated. We give examples of the most prominent narratives.
The likelihood of the demonization of queer people and male supremacy will still be there. However, other things about antisemitism are presenting themselves in American society more openly right now, like the utilitarianism of the Jews and how Jews are utilized as tools, whether it’s by Christian nationalists or right-wing politicians. They’re a means to an end. Supporting Jews gets you X, a lot of that has to do with believing in the tropes of Jewish power and Jewish influence.
What do we make up? We make up one to two percent of this country and 0.2 percent of the world’s population; yet somehow, it’s believed that we control 80 to 90 to even 100 percent of the world’s wealth and influence. One of the most important things to recognize is that seeking a finite definition is flawed, if that makes sense.
It’s easy to say, “Look, antisemitism is hatred against Jews.” Great, but how does that help us? How does saying that help us? It doesn’t. Some of the best examples I’ll give are, in the wake of the Gaza war and Israel’s retaliation, if somebody graffitis “Free Gaza” on a wall in the middle of a freeway or something, great. Criticism of Israel, support for Palestinians, whatever; however, when they decide to do it in a synagogue or a Jewish institution, it’s not the message that makes it antisemitic. It’s the decision on the location that does. This person decided that Jews are synonymous with Israel and that a Jewish religious institution or a Jewish institution is responsible or at least connected to what Israel is or isn’t doing. That’s antisemitic. That decision is antisemitic. That nuance needs to be pointed out because, in these finite definitions, the more finite they get, the less nuance is included. That becomes a problem. That was a very long-winded non-answer to your question. But does that make sense?
Jacobsen: Yes, I know a counselling psychologist, a Métis doctoral counselling psychologist, who specializes in the self. He views cultures and the self as non-static. They’re dynamic entities, so, similarly, with this definition.
Milwicki: That’s the thing. I’ve always been a grassroots historian, a social historian. As long as people are the driving engines of these actions and beliefs, they’ll never be static. You can say things like racism is hatred of someone of a different race, or you could say things like anti-Islam is hatred of Muslims. You can say all those things. They’re obvious. That’s obvious. You don’t need an academic to tell you that antisemitism has to do with hating Jews. You don’t need me for that. Where others and I are valuable in pointing out that these things are not static; it is important to continue to study them so that we can keep up with them and understand how they’re presenting themselves. The fact that antisemitism is so baked into American society is so baked in that most people utilize antisemitic tropes without realizing it. The amount of people in this country who are talking about a deep state have no idea that at its core, it has roots in antisemitism, in recent antisemitism. That’s Henry Ford’s stuff. You can probably trace that back before the protocols.
And the person using that deep state term might not be an overtly antisemitic person, might not even be hateful. They might be someone who thinks there’s a shadow government. There’s a lot of Americans that do. But the very concept of that shadow government, of that puppet master, of people controlling things behind the scenes, has its core in antisemitism. We see this often, for example, with George Soros, right? It doesn’t matter. I’ve written about the George Soros trope twice for SPLC alone. The George Soros trope, it doesn’t matter who the man is or what he does. It doesn’t matter. The “Soros,” George Soros’s name, is no longer about the person.
Soros has become a convenient stand-in for Jews. In one of the articles, I’d have to find out if it was two years ago or last year that I wrote that we did a study. We took a month and looked at if you look at the Soros tropes – “Soros is behind,” “Soros backed power,” and “Soros greed” – they even got Soros involved with causing the Holocaust. A couple of years ago, I believe it was a GOP convention in either Minnesota or Michigan or even more recently, they have these pictures of George Soros as the puppet master. Those are the exact images the Nazis used of Jews. Whatever your thoughts about George Soros as a businessman, I don’t understand business.
But it’s not a criticism of George Soros or his business. Put it this way: nobody is saying Elon Musk backed prosecutors or Elon Musk backed D.A.s. No one cares about that. And you have to ask yourself why. There’s this one significant difference: Soros is Jewish. Everything they’re accusing Soros of fits into these antisemitic tropes.
Jacobsen: I found another one where I’ve been seeing this one thrown around, too, this bigger picture is the greatreplacement theory. That Jews are behind all this. What’s the antisemitic grounding for a clear conspiracy hypothesis or whatever you want to call it?
Milwicki: I wrote the recent Soros article. Looking at this one, you’ll see the graph I told you about from 2022. This is the far-right using that. This is the George Soros trope one. We used two graphs in this on. It was for a month that we did this little study. But if you also scroll down a little bit more and you look at the tropes there, or the idea that Soros controlled every single one of them, then these are all things that are said by people still to this day and have been said for arguably 20-plus years. If you replace the word “Jew” in place of “Soros” or “George Soros” with any of those, those are all standard antisemitic tropes, every single one. But this is palatable. Because it says “George Soros.” It’s so palatable that the country has become so inflamed by this that talking about George Soros like this isn’t considered antisemitic in mainstream or at least in right-wing politics. I would love to say left-wing politics also, but it’s everywhere. That’s how baked it is.
Jacobsen: Are these done consciously to shuttle these extremist, antisemitic ideas into the mainstream–Left and Right?
Milwicki: You could make it. The question is, which is worse? On the one hand, combating hatred is something you can do. Hateful people can disassociate from you or vice versa. That can happen. You can help that. However, ignorance is a lot more tricky because, at least in our lifetimes, ignorance has become considerably more willful. People are not like, “Well, I didn’t know, I’d like to learn.” People say, “I don’t want to know, and what you’re saying is wrong because it counters my beliefs or things that I already know.” There needs to be more openness or intellectual inquiry among people nowadays. People know. The people who think George Soros is a villain, there’s almost nothing I could ever do. I’ve been told, “Don’t you think that because you have a PhD, it means you’re tainted by academia?”
Jacobsen: So with all these George Soros connections to this, as an image apart from the man, how does the “Great Replacement Theory” work in this too? My first introduction to this form of hate was in the conspiracy theory around the Richard von Coudenhove-Kalergi plan posited by a member of the high-IQ communities who has minor to moderate fame on-and-off for mostly notorious things and less about extraordinary IQ at this point.
Milwicki: If you scratch the surface of any conspiracy theory, you’ll find antisemitism. That’s a cold-hearted fact. I can give you an example. I don’t even know the headline. This might not have to do directly with the great replacement, but this theme is here. George Soros is behind the move to make abortions legal because California is like a godless country. The great replacement is the idea of minorities replacing white people.
In racist dogmas and racist theologies, there’s a belief that the other, the non-white, are not capable. This is traceable a long way back. The long-standing history of anti-Black racism in this country is obvious. At least, it should be to most people anyway. I’m sure, as an outsider looking in, you might know more about America’s racist history than the average high school student because that’s a whole other thing. So there has to be someone behind it who has the money, knowledge, and ability to pull the strings and use these things.
I say “things” on purpose because that’s the way they believe these other races are. Who’s behind it all? Jewish people, always, always pulling the strings. So again, please read through our website to see why the Great Replacement Theory is still popular, Tucker Carlson loves to talk about it all the time. Unfortunately, he still has a following. It’s not with Black people. The migrant caravans, who do you think is behind all that? Soros. Now, the people saying Soros is behind it might not realize that they’re buying into antisemitic tropes. A lot of those people would fall into the category of the “I’m-not-racist-but” people. Like, “I’m not racist; I got a lot of Jewish friends. I’m not racist, but you have to believe Jews have lots of money. I’m not racist, but you gotta believe there’s more black and brown people in jail.” I’ve always said that when I used to teach, I used to say, if anyone ever says to you, “I’m not racist, but” tell them to stop. Because whatever comes after that “but” is going to be racist. It’s as close to a universal truth as you will get. If someone says, “I’m not racist, but” be like, “Bro, I’m out. Come on, stop.”
So, one of the hallmarks of antisemitism is conspiracy. So, any conspiracy you find, I guarantee you, you can find an antisemitic rationale behind it or some antisemitic explanation of it. Remember Jews, and if you read Mein Kampf, even got through the first four chapters of it, you’ll realize that Jews are the only people who can be both communist and capitalist, greedy and poor, dirty rich. If there’s one thing the Nazis did well, it’s that they consolidated all of their enemies into one.
It’s hard to hate so many different things. Who are we hating now? Whose fault is this? It doesn’t have to be all of those; it’s the Jew. Because Jews represent such a small part of the population, that makes them even more dangerous; that makes the hidden hand much more viable because you can’t see them. Look at me; I look like a white guy, right?
My long hair is the only thing that gives me away. I might be a little weird to these people. The amount of times in myclasses when I got told, “You don’t seem Jewish.” What does a Jew seem like? They weren’t coming from a place of hatred. The one kid who flipped over his thing and gave me a Confederate flag was, but I called him out and said, “Yes, yes, like that. That’s bigotry, that’s racism. What you’re showing right there.”
Jacobsen: What about the tragedy of some who have come from a history of experiencing a variety of racism, then use antisemitic tropes and conspiracies to bolster their community? A common claim against Louis Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam.
Milwicki: Antisemitism is the great unifier. If there’s one thing that can connect the Hebrew Israelites to the Proud Boys, to the Ku Klux Klan, to Patriot Front, to Neo-Volkish, you name it. The one thing that can tie them all together is antisemitism. If you find any form of racism, you can find antisemitism. It’s not as irregular as it sounds. A lot of the stuff that the radical Hebrew Israelites would like to say is Christian identity repackaged.
Jacobsen: I’ve mentioned something in other interviews, but I’ll say it again. My background is that I did my 23andMe and came out 100% Northwestern European. So, by that definition of ‘white,’ if we have to use ‘race’ pseudoscience, that would be categorized into that. My nationality is Canadian; my heritage is Dutch, Norwegian, and so on. So, I have a bunch of people who are Jewish friends. I learned that around 1810, Israel Jacobson founded Reform Judaism. If there’sany relation at all, I have no idea. I have yet to do a formal research project into it. One of my longest-term writing friends is Rick Rosner. He wrote for Jimmy Kimmel for 12 years. He’s part of the Mega Society. He does well on these high-range tests. So, he’s a wacky character. He is a former child prodigy in physics. He did non-genius things like roller skating, waiting, stripper, bouncer, nude art modelling, and comedy writing for his career. He’s in his 60s. Another gentleman did identically on some of these more famous tests with large sample sizes and recent statistical analysis, measuring pretty high. But not as high as originally stated. A guy who was featured in Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell, by Cynthia McFadden in 20/20 (also), Rick Montgomery in The Kansas City Star, John R. Quain in Popular Science, Ray Preston in KMOV, Louis Finley in KTVO, with Spike Jonze, with Aaron Henry, in Esquire by Mike Sager, NBC, Errol Morris in First Person, SuperScholar, Christopher Michael Langan. They claimed an IQ of 195. He has claimed 190 to 210. Based on more recent sober analysis, these are not true but are believed. [Ed. Probably closer to 163 to 170+ S.D. 16, as with Rosner.]
Milwicki: Geniuses can be racist, too.
Jacobsen: Correct. So you have very high scores on these reasonably researched high-range test set sample – Mega Test and Titan Test. As a case study, he’s interesting as a independent, freelance journalist, leaning more into investigative journalism in this instance, a complex figure. He has expressed views around conspiracy theories and the 9-11 truth movement, opposition to interracial relationships, and getting a following by people’s freedom to, generally speaking, say something about them, as well as using what has been termed dog whistles around antisemitism (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7, among other things), particularly in some articles by Justin Ward in The Baffler, Talbert Gregson of Cracked, and Ari Feldman in The Forward. So, opinions differ in the extreme on him. People might disagree with the applications of people’s articles or orientations. Still, it allows a little bit of individual reflection, but, anyway, what that’s got methinking about is how people who are antisemitic, at least in this stream, have their opposition to interracial relationships. Not the interracial relationship itself but the fact that somehow the Jews are behind them. That, to me, is hilarious. What’sthe thinking there?
Milwicki: It goes back to what I said before, which is that these demographics are incapable of doing things independently. Or that Jews have this desire to remake the world. Many anti-Semites will call it the “Jew world order,” for example. They’re very clever. So, when things are going in a bad direction, there’s this belief that there has to be someone behind it. There are demographers. In the United States, there’s this belief, or there’s this study that was done that says by 2050, this country’s going to be predominantly Latino. That’s been something that’s been around for a while. For me, I don’t give a crap. But that scares the crap out of many people. There’s this belief, think about it. Every year in this country, there’s a war on Christmas.
Every year: I am sorry, but I am not inundated by menorahs and Hanukkah music every December. I don’t see Ramadan parties or Eid parties. I don’t get a federal holiday for Yom Kippur. But this all plays into it—this victimization of the white Christian male, cis-gendered male, specifically, the white Christian man. So that’s a tale as old as time, dude, with the risk of being the Beast myself. Anyway, it’s not rational. Racism of any kind, any discrimination, is not rational. That’sa key point. People will point to evidence and instances, but an instance of something happening.
That’s not evidence. The personal does not reflect the whole, right? The fact that you got robbed by a Latino man does not mean that all Latino men are criminals. Do you get what I’m saying? But that’s the belief. However, when it’s a white man who is raping a girl, not all white men are rapists. That’s wrong. That only applies to minorities. So you have the combination of the demonization of minorities coupled with the puppet mastery of the Jew. The fact that society is changing: Who benefits from that? Who’s the financial backer? Who’s the one behind this?
Listen, if I was half of what anti-Semites believed I was… I used to tell my students this in classes: all of their tuition would be going into my right pocket. I’d be sharing it equally with my left pocket because I’m both communist and capitalist. The only demographic of people who are capable of this level of betrayal, this level of duplicity, this level of banality and evil, while simultaneously being godless and whatever, are Jews. I’m the worst kind. I look like everyone else.
Jacobsen: What would be the centrist examples and leftist examples of antisemitism?
Milwicki: Buying into tropes and buying into tropes because they are so difficult. That would be my best answer. Look, here’s the thing. The way I used to explain it is that it’s the right that hates Jews. It’s the left that doesn’t like Israel.
It’s in this world we’re living in now where we’re seeing that mix. While it is true that there have been some right-wing racist organizations that have come out supporting Palestinians and Holocaust revisionists, right? Other researchers might have seen more, but I’ve seen this. The people who are–let’s say–vandalizing synagogues or Holocaust museums with “Free Gaza” aren’t necessarily right-wing. I would argue they’re probably progressives. The trope that they’re falling into there is the conflation of Jews with Israel. So that would be my best example. That’s a recent one. I can’t tell you how many progressives have done that because nobody sticks around.
That’s the thing about these. I track antisemitic incidents for SPLC. I can tell you that since Gaza, vandalism, bomb threats, and graffiti of Jewish institutions have gone up like this.
Jacobsen: It’s on the rise in Canada, too.
Milwicki: So, I see much stuff happening in Canada, too. It does not look like antisemitism. Like I said, I said antisemitism is baked into America. That’s true. But the reason is because it’s baked into Western civilization. I’m not the first historian to tell you that it’s the world’s oldest racism. As long as there have been Jews, there have been people who have been against Jews. One of the facts of Western history is that you can barely go a half-century without a pogrom against Jews. You can’t. If there’s one true thing, it’s that in periods of heightened tension, whether economic, racial, political, social, or even spiritual. You will find antisemitism accompanying it.
What Herzl said in the 1890s about the Jewish question, right? He said something along the lines of, ‘The Jewish question persists wherever Jews live in appreciable numbers, and it’s brought in because they are allowed to live there.’ The question becomes the same question that Goebbels ripped off, except he was like, “What do we do with the Jews?” Herzl intended: “What happens to us when they turn?” One of the best examples of this is if I were to ask you point blank, between 1870 and roughly 1917, what do you think the safest place in the world for Jews was?
Jacobsen: Germany.
Milwicki: German Jews were allowed to join the army. German Jews fought for the Central Powers. They were granted citizenship. They flocked en masse to fight for the Central Powers. Hitler’s commander was Jewish, and he was awarded a medal. There was even talk among them once Herzl died in “Zionist headquarters.” Instead of finding it in historic Jewish history in the Middle East in what was then the British protectorate of Palestine, there was talk about…
Jacobsen: Germany?
Milwicki: Germany. There were a lot of moderate Zionist Jews. Remember, I’m using the word “Zionism” in the context of the 19th century and early 20th century. It’s another social construct that’s gone out of control, especially how people use it. That’s a side issue or another issue we can talk about. But then, things went bad. Things got bad. You have Jews living in appreciable numbers in Germany. So you get things like the stab-in-the-back myth. We start seeing political cartoons of Jews stabbing German soldiers in the trenches from the back. There’s a whole legend about Ludendorff and a British admiral that’s probably not true. Where the British admiral says at tea time, “Well, it sounds like you were stabbed in the back,” and Ludendorff is like, “Son of a bitch.” And then you get Mein Kampf in 1923. That’s all she wrote.
Or look at Spain or France; France was the most dangerous place in the world to be Jewish, or Russia had pogroms against Jews; the Soviet Union, you name it, it’s everywhere. So it’s that insider-outsider thing. I’m not going to go full Herzlian here. He’s right on one thing. Jews move to places where they’re allowed to live freely. That is a fact of history.
Jacobsen: Could you make a social and group psychology statement? If you look at the demographics of how many Jewish people living in a country and rank them by country with the most antisemitic country to the country with the least, you could make a social psychological statement. Generally speaking, this is the portion of people where they feel safest to live, where more Jewish people are; then there’s a safer feeling. And wherever any Jew lives, the reason they live there is because either they or someone before them felt safer.
Milwicki: I can’t. I’m not a sociologist; I’m not a psychologist. I know psychology or sociology through two dear colleagues, one of whom was my mentor. Let me tell you, that woman was a psych M.D. in Saudi Arabia for 20 years. That woman has seen some shit. So, I know psychology through a very limited lens. My sociology colleague and friend deals with the sociology of power. He’s convinced me that that’s the most important construct: power and the absence of power. I used to think it was identity in my naive youth four years ago. Power or the perception of it. But here’s the thing. The two universal truths I have are: that the Nazis never had any good ideas, and the Civil War was about slavery, cut and print. I won’t accept any argument over that. But there are two things that I’ve heard that I have not been able to disprove in any way, shape, or form. I can’t take credit for saying this. I was in grad school for 395,000 years and heard it somewhere.
Subjugation always requires “Justification,” not for the people being subjugated but for the backers. Perception always, always, always matters more than reality, always. Nobody cares what’s happening. It’s the same reason most people base their understanding of today’s world on headlines. No one, no one, no one goes deeper. That’s why academics are being attacked or schools are being shut down, not physically, maybe physically, why books are being attacked. People don’twant reality. People don’t want to learn what these people think. People don’t want to listen to people like me. “Please give me the top line. Could you give me the headline?” That’s all people want.
I have never found an instance where that isn’t true. I’m open to being told I’m wrong, except for the Nazis and the Civil War thing. Now that’s true. At the beginning of every semester, I would tell students I would like them to argue anything with me. I will allow any argument. If you attempt this argument, I will destroy you. You will be too embarrassed to return to class. So yes, I hope that even addressed your question.
Jacobsen: So, in the Canadian Armed Forces, it has been reported that there are white nationalist groups; members of the Canadian Armed Forces either have ties or had ties to some of the following groups such as the Proud Boys, the Base, Soldiers of Odin, Atomwaffen Division, Hammerskins Nation, and the 3%. Now, there are some things to be stated. There are some things to be stated about that. One is that it is noted as an issue, according to research by the Canadian Armed Forces. Our numbers are high, but it is independent of your point of view. However, Canada has one of the smallestarmies of the G-20. 19th out of 20th of the members.
So there are 53 members of the Canadian forces who have been identified as members of these styles of hate groups, antisemitic groups. It’s in a not-very-large army. So that is reasonable and a claim for alarm because these people are looking to the army for resources and training, especially with weapons.
Milwicki: You also have to keep in mind that those are the people who are card-carrying members. That’s a difference. That’s a matter of rhetoric.
Jacobsen: It travels. As it happens, these guys tend to talk. As I did in the follow-up article on the sexual assault scandals in the Canadian Armed Forces, there was this one officer called Officer X. He had cases going back more than ten years. So, this Officer X reportage found that everyone in senior officership had his case brought to them at some point, including the current highest-ranking general. Nothing has been done. So, what this got me thinking about was after writing that article on the white nationalists in the Canadian Armed Forces and then following up on the sexual assault scandal in the Canadian Armed Forces, one, they’re happening. They’re real. The prevalence is going to be underreported, as we know, at least in the sexual assault case. We know in the white nationalist white supremacist case because, as they say, those 53 are according to their internal documents. Then they will say, “We didn’t have enough resources. We didn’thave enough staff.”
What needs to be stated is that they need a formal procedure for identification; you can easily see in those three gaps that there are many more in an army of only 80,000, potentially fewer if you’re considering active and full-time alone. So these people want training, especially weapons. It’s different from other contexts. If you’re a baker, mail carrier, or clerk, it’s a different context because you are trained in lethality. So then the question is, does this change the threat level of antisemitism when these types of groups are going for that training?
Milwicki: So then they can then be of use, so to speak, for their movement. It could, but keep in mind that the difference between Canada and America is that we have more guns than people. So far, there have been more shootings than there have been days of 2024. One thing that Americans do have is that they have more guns than people.
Jacobsen: You have as many registered guns as Canadians have registered guns.
Milwicki: So I could probably drive 10 minutes and see a gun show any day of the week. Look, the dude who shot at Donald Trump had his dad’s AK-47. What the hell does a civilian need with a military-grade weapon? No idea. They’ll say the Second Amendment. If you base it on the Second Amendment, you best get a musket based on that time. You best be going out hunting with that musket. You can put a scope on it if you want. It’s going to go differently than you want it. On another topic, there was an award for a non-Nazi citizen or a non-German Nazi. If you look, this is a lecture I gave. Henry Ford was awarded the Grand Cross of Germany.
Jacobsen: And let’s see. [Read Milwicki’s slides] “Jews have always controlled the business… The motion picture influence of the United States and Canada… is exclusively under the control, moral and financial, of the Jewish manipulators of the public mind.”
“There is nothing that the international Jew fears so much as the truth or any hint of the truth about himself or his plans.”
Milwicki: So, not for nothing, that dude didn’t work out. You don’t need my slides to find Henry Ford’s quotes. You can also find countless copies of The International Jew online. One of those other things is not to wait to read it in public. I’vemade that mistake several times. 90% of my dissertation was written in a coffee shop, but look how far it goes back. This is Martin Luther’s On the Jews and Their Lies. His is from the 16th century. So, we’re staying strong here. We’re not breaking new ground here. Why do you need to? The answer is you don’t. If it isn’t broken, right? That’s the brilliance of racism. You don’t need evidence. All you need is someone else to say it to you, before and after.
Jacobsen: What about Louis Farrakhan?:
“Why isn’t the white man a native anywhere? You’re not a native Palestinian, no you’re not. You didn’t originate there. But if you did, then you’re the real Semitic people. But the Ashkenazi European, he has no connection at all to the Holy Land. None! So in a showdown prove to us that you are Semitic. Let’s go on with it, it’s our time now!” — Speech at Mosque Maryam, Chicago, Illinois, 11/18/18
“Do you know that many of us who go to Hollywood seeking a chance, we have to submit to anal sex and all kids of debauchery, and they give you a little part? The couch where you have to sit, it’s called the ‘casting couch.’ That’s Jewish power.” — Speech at Mosque Maryam, Chicago, Illinois, 5/27/18
“You and I are going to have to learn to distinguish between the righteous Jew and the Satanic Jews who have infected the whole world with poison and deceit.” — Speech at Mosque Maryam, Chicago, Illinois, 5/27/18
“But when you’ve got revelation that came to you from God through all these prophets, then that’s your test because if you use God’s truth that makes you wiser than others and use it to promote evil when you should be promoting good, then you’re no longer a Jew. And that’s why the scripture says, “I will make those who say they are Jews,” this is Revelation 2 and 9, ‘Who say they are Jews, but they are not, I will make them of the Synagogue of Satan.’ — Interview on WCGI 107.5 Chicago, 5/11/18
“When you want something in this world, the Jew holds the door.” — Saviours’ Day speech, 2/25/18
“Satan is going down. Farrakhan has pulled the cover of the eyes of the Satanic Jew and I’m here to say your time is up, your world is through. You good Jews better separate because the satanic ones will take you to hell with them because that’s where they are headed.” — Saviours’ Day speech, 2/25/18
“The Jews were responsible for all of this filth and degenerate behavior that Hollywood is putting out: turning men into women, and women into men.” — Saviours’ Day speech, 2/25/18
“I don’t care what they put on me. The government is my enemy, the powerful Jews are my enemy.” — Saviours’ Day speech, 2/25/18
“Members of the Jewish community, who owned a lot of plantations, please don’t get angry and upset because this is real history, you put us back on the plantation as share croppers and began riding down on us, and if any of us escaped the plantation many of the Irish that were coming over, they call them the paddy wagon, they would come after us and bring us back to the plantation; those were hard days, hard days.” — Speech at the Watergate Hotel in Washington, DC, 11/11/17
“But there are righteous Jews, good Jews, Jews that want to practice the teachings of the prophets, but then there are others who don’t wish to practice, and it is they that hated Reverend [Jesse] Jackson’s desire to be President.” — Speech at the Watergate Hotel in Washington, DC, 11/11/17
“Those who call themselves ‘Jews,” who are not really Jews, but are in fact Satan: You should learn to call them by their real name, ‘Satan;’ you are coming face-to-face with Satan, the Arch Deceiver, the enemy of God and the enemy of the Righteous.” — Saviours’ Day speech (part 2), 2/26/17
“To my Jewish friends, I shouldn’t use the word ‘friends’ so lightly, you have been a great and master deceiver, but God is going to pull the covers all off of you.” — Saviours’ Day speech (part 2), 2/26/17
“I want to disabuse the Jews today of the false claim that you are ‘The Chosen of God,’ and that Israel, or Palestine, belongs to you; I want to disabuse you of that…And I’m going to tell you about your future: You that think you have power to frighten and dominate the peoples of the world. I am here to announce the end of your time.” — Saviours’ Day speech (part 1), 2/19/17
“This past December we organized a boycott of Christmas and our theme was ‘Up with Jesus! Down with Santa!’ Here is the white man, many of whom that have these businesses, they don’t believe in Jesus. I’m going to say it again: Many of the biggest business people are called Jews, and they don’t believe in Jesus. But you love Jesus so magnificently, that now they can make money—a lot of money—off of your love. So, they set up Christmas.” — Speech delivered at Mosque Maryam at the second annual “Boys to Men Empowerment Conference, Chicago, Illinois, 4/20/2016
“We are feeling the effect of the planning of a small group of Zionists and some so-called Christians as well. The Synagogue of Satan and its companions are working day and night to destroy any unity among Muslims.” — Speech delivered in Iran, 2/10/16
“Do you know that the enemies of Jesus were the Jews of his day and the Roman authorities? That wasn’t 2000 years ago alone. That’s today!” — Saviours’ Day speech (part 2), Mosque Maryam, Chicago, Illinois 3/2/14
“David — even though he may have made a mistake — he submitted and repented before God. This you false Jews have not done. No. You are not a Jew! I say you’re a so-called Jew. You are Satan masquerading as a covenanted people of God. You must be exposed, regardless of the consequences…” — The Time and What Must Be Done: Part 57, 2/8/14
“Did you know that Jesus had a real problem with the Jewish community? They had power, the rabbis of that day, over the Roman authorities just as they have power today over our government.” — Remarks at Indianapolis Convention Center, Indianapolis, Indiana, 12/1/13
“In all of these cities on a Jewish holiday, business stops because they are the masters not only in America’s cities but in cities throughout Europe and the Western world.” — The Time and What Must Be Done, Part 20: Making Satan Known, 5/25/13
“The Jewish media has normalized sexual degeneracy, profanity, and all kinds of sin.” — The Time and What Must Be Done, Part 20: Making Satan Known, 5/25/13
“Socialism or communism is a doctrine they have to fight cause it ends their wealth and their power, wherever socialism rises, capitalism begins to die…So the International Jew is affected by the rise of socialism, it is in their DNA to fight anything that will raise the common man. This is why they fight any voice that the little man will listen to.” — The Time and What Must Be Done, Part 17, 5/4/13
“You that think that those who refer to themselves as Jews are the real Children of Israel? No. You have made a real theological mistake and some of you have made a theological error because you know the truth, but yet you consider your wickedness in promoting a deceptive lie.” — The Time and What Must Be Done, Part 5, 2/9/13
“Now you know I’m going to be lambasted and called anti-Semitic… They’ll say Farrakhan was up to his old canards; he said Jews control Hollywood. Well, they said it themselves! Jews control the media. They said it themselves! Jews and some gentiles control the banking industry, international banks. They do! In Washington right next to the Holocaust Museum is the Federal Reserve where they print the money. Is that an accident?” — Holy Day of Atonement Keynote Address (part 2) Mosque Maryam, Chicago, Illinois, 10/21/12
Farrakhan: How many of you are lawyers? Only have one in the house? No wonder we go to jail so much, brother! But at the top of the law profession, who are the top in law?
Audience: Jews.
Farrakhan: Sorry I didn’t hear you. Audience: Jews! Farrakhan: Any doctors in the house? Ain’t got no doctors? Oh there’s one way in the back. At the top of the medical profession, the top in that are members of the Jewish community. Anybody in media? Who’s the top in that field?
Audience: Jews.
Farrakhan: Anybody a rapper in the house? There’s rappers. You can rap, ain’t nothing wrong with that, but at the top of that are those that control the industry. Any of you have Hollywood ambitions, Broadway ambitions? Who’s the top of that? Audience: Jews. Farrakhan: Same people! They’re masters in business. Well I’m not a businessman I’m a banker. Well who’s the master of the bankers?
Audience: Jews.
Farrakhan: TALK TO ME!
Audience: Jews!
Farrakhan: You don’t discredit them because they’re masters, you discredit them by the way they use their mastery.
Audience: [applause]
Farrakhan: Now, I close.
Milwicki: Oh, it’s all kinds. “Satanic Jew” is a straight Christian identity, radical Hebrew Israelites. Where I used to teach in downtown Dallas, every so often, there used to be radical Hebrew Israelites protesting there. I would be amazed at how identical this was to Christian identity. I don’t track them here. One of my other colleagues does. But I know about them because they are essentially Christians who replace white male Christendom with black male Christians. Antisemitism, like I said, is the great unifier. It doesn’t matter. It brings the strangest bedfellows.
Jacobsen: It’s unsurprising and believable. What emotions arise for many Jewish people when talking to all types of Jewish communities? What are the words of commonalities?
Milwicki: I can only speak to what I’ve witnessed. There is much fear and also much resignation. There’s also a lot of like, “Oh, who gives a shit?” It’s enough. The exhaustion: if we’re going to put it like this, things will be terrifying. Of course, “It’s this way” and “isn’t it enough already?” Those are the best ways I would explain it. But again, I can only speak to my own experience here regarding what I’ve seen. You’d have to put anger in there, too. A lot of the anger is directed not necessarily at, I don’t want to say, accurate, but useful targets. It’s easy to get angry at the world. That’s one of the greatest ways to be for birthing extremists. Like I said before, why is having one enemy so beneficial?
Like how the Nazis made it so beneficial to have all your problems in one thing, antisemitism comes from so many different ways. Antisemitism comes from so many different places and different modalities that it can make you angry and tired. Now, look, I lived this life. I chose to study this stuff.
And usually, I’m able to disconnect. But there are times when this has happened more since I’ve had kids. There are some times when it’s like, “Are you kidding me right now?” It’s like the fact that it didn’t take more than a couple of hours for people to blame Jews for what happened to Trump or people to blame Jews. It’s almost instantaneous. I don’t want to say it’s not like that in other countries, but at the same time, it’s not as loud in other countries. Or at least, it could be more instantaneously vociferous. If that makes sense, other countries have laws about this stuff. We don’t have a First Amendment right to be an asshole.
Jacobsen: So Michelle Shortt, Stuart De Haan of the Arizona chapter of The Satanic Temple. Whether they’re still running it or not, I want to make sure they get their credit because they were the ones who laid to rest any doubts I had about it when I asked them point blank. We said:
Jacobsen: You see this in those that don’t put the self first, too. For instance, the current Catholic Pope—I believe Discordianism likes to joke that that’s the guy who thinks he’s the only Pope—basically, he is liberalizing much of, not necessarily church doctrine but, perception in the public eye of the Catholic Church. He’s even meeting with the leader of the second largest sect of Christianity.
250-300 million, which is the Eastern Orthodox Church, they met with the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I, in Cairo of all places! There are times of meetup. But when you were talking about alternative places for people who don’t really find themselves buying majoritarian mythologies very much, two things came to mind.
One was a United Church of Canada Minister. For context, the United Church of Canada is probably considered the most liberalised Christian church in Canada. I use it as a benchmark. Whatever is controversial to them, it is what Christianity will allow in this country. Not sure about America, things are different in America. The minister’s name is Gretta Vosper.
She lost her faith while in the church. She went from the progression of theist to deist to atheist. Her congregation were fine with the minister. Recently, late 2016, she was under review for her suitability for being in the church. She was giving – for that particular group – moral lessons. Another case I was thinking about was the secular church in, what some would consider the equivalent of the Bible Belt in America, Calgary, Alberta.
So I think there are ways this stuff is cropping up more, and more. And it is heartening to hear this. Media representation is interesting. The United States has very powerful public relations, previously termed propaganda, industry. When I watch interviews with Lucien Greaves, for instance, there’s talking over him. There’s stereotypes. There’s not taking him seriously.
Any bad journalistic practice. He undergoes. Is there a bettering trend in the representation of the media of Satanism?
de Haan: No.
Shortt: No. A Fox News thing posted an article for our veterans’ memorial in Minnesota. First line: “Devil Worshippers Erecting Monument in Bell Plains.”
de Haan: It’s like they won’t even give the courtesy of a Google search, sometimes.
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
de Haan: If you want to see how we’re treated personally, you can Google it. A councilman in Phoenix, Arizona compared us to ISIS. Michelle and I have personally been called terrorists by public officials. We’ve been called bullies, as they tell us to go to hell.
Jacobsen: These would be the same person, same personality type, that would bully you in work and then wouldplay the victim.
de Haan: What we see in Christianity a lot is if they don’t get 100% of their way 100% of the time, they play the victim.
Jacobsen: [Laughing] of course.
de Haan: That they’re being persecuted. Part of what we do is expose this. I think a lot of stuff people don’t realize is going on until you have someone who comes up, and who is an easy standard to call the ‘wrong religion’.
Shortt: We definitely do not see them being any fairer in their representation of us at all, to answer the question. In fact,almost anything like pizzagate. Or the satanic panic being underway with religious freedom now being the thing. It’s going to happen.
de Haan: Moral panics are on the rise. It is a bit concerning. As they are calling it in the Trump Era, the Post-Fact Era, the facts simply do not matter anymore. What makes you maddest? That’s the truth. You see the things like pizzagate. Where a pizza parlour, they say they’re going to have children sacrifices in the basement. In 2017, this is a throwback to the McMartin babysitter case, which happened in the 80s.
You’re seeing stuff like this happening. Luckily, you have debunking of this pretty quickly. People know about Snopes, and so on. Michelle and I have been the subject of conspiracy theories in Phoenix, in our own cities. There are websites slandering us personally. It is what we deal with, especially if you’re in a leadership position.
Regarding your expertise, it’s not necessarily the wrong religion. It’s the wrong type of person.
Milwicki: It’s also the wrong belief system. It’s not about religion. That’s about politics and society and everything. I could be judged immoral because I support gay marriage. I support marriage equality.
Jacobsen: Don Lemon said, “Am I in a state of sin, or am I sinning because I…” And Candace Owens says, “Yes, you are.” Without a flinch.
Milwicki: Without a flinch. And she also thinks that the Holocaust didn’t happen the way we thought it did because she’s an expert in everything.
Jacobsen: I listen to a lot of these American preachers of this type, a lot of them. Mark Driscoll comes to mind. And these things from the FRC, they’re terrible. These individuals are now told by their leaders to their congregants to be bold. That they will come across X, Y, and Z resistance. You don’t have to have fear and be bold in your affirmations. Candace Owens, I’m seeing this pop up more where many aren’t having feedback; they need to hold to the regular social contract where you’ve cut off the feedback at that point. That’s what I noticed in Candace Owens and Don Lemon’s interaction.
Milwicki: No, you can’t have any; they’re all cowards. The second you give them any form of criticism, they fall back on bullshit tropes or whataboutism. They’re all cowards. They’re all cowards. They don’t have evidence to back them up. They abuse faith by saying, “I’ll quote this scripture.” Look, Wesley Swift, one of the most mind-blowing things when I was working on my dissertation. One of the major, probably the most important, voices is the focus of my entire dissertation, the major voice of Christian identity. Every time he quoted scripture, he was on point—every time. I would be like, there’s no way this isn’t… There were a couple of words missing, like a “thou” or a “thee” or a “shall,” whatever, but everything he quoted was on point. Now, that doesn’t mean that scripture is inherently racist. It means it’s not hard to make scripture racist and exclusionary. It is not hard.
I used to say, and take this with a grain of salt, but I used to say that history is a very subjective study that relies on objectivity. We know that Germany invaded Poland in September of 1939, and that was the beginning of World War II. We can say that. That is as close to an objective historical fact as we can say. There are, however, that Germany did invade Poland. Some historians would argue that that’s not the beginning of World War II, and they’ll provide evidence to say, “No, it began when Japan invaded Manchuria.” But there is an element of some form of objectivity. Where theology becomes dangerous is that it’s equally subjective; that’s why if you take Protestantism: How many different kinds of Protestants are there?
So there’s a difference. But the backbone is faith, and you cannot prove or disprove faith. So, if you build a racial or racist ideology or theology around faith, it cannot be disproved. Because the only thing the person using it has to say is “what I believe… That’s not my faith, which is real.” That’s a danger in every religion. Facts are useless if you believe them, and belief is the core of your evidence. And that was a very sad thing to mention.
It was a great pleasure talking to you, man.
Jacobsen: Great to meet you, bro.
Milwicki: Nice to meet you, too. Bye.
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