Zahra Nader on Zan Times and Afghan Women’s Journalism

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2024/06/21

Zahra Nader is a unique voice in the Canadian journalistic landscape who joined the mainstream journalism community through the Canadian Association of Journalists around the same time as me a couple of years ago. She impresses me. Here we talk about the world of Zan Times.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Now, why did you find Zan Times?

Zahra Nader: I founded Zan Times to tell the story of Afghan women and what’s happening in Afghanistan, particularly since the Taliban takeover. When they took over, I was in Canada doing my PhD in Women and Gender Studies at York University. I imagined my future in academia. I wanted to return to Afghanistan, teaching at Kabul University. When the Taliban took over, that future was gone and also all my family, relatives, and everyone I knew were in Afghanistan. So, it was a traumatizing time for me.

Growing up without a right to education as an Afghan refugee in Iran, I felt the pain of millions of women in Afghanistan who were now experiencing the same thing when the Taliban came. There was a lot of pain for me and a lot of crying during those early months. Even when I was listening to music I used to dance to, I was crying, thinking this would never happen in Afghanistan until the Taliban are in power. It was very emotional.

Then, I started asking myself what I could do. I had a responsibility as a woman who grew up in Afghanistan, became educated, and became a journalist there. I couldn’t focus on my personal life with that conscience. I started telling stories from the very first days that the Taliban came. I helped an Afghan women-led media to establish its English website, and worked with different organizations. However, I felt I couldn’t tell the stories I wanted to in other places.

I started talking to other women, primarily Afghan women journalists, about building a newsroom where we could tell our own stories, the way we experience them, our truth, no matter what others say. Certain truths are painful, especially for the women who are being stripped of their rights. Many friends supported the idea and said, “Yes, I’m with you; let’s do this.” I had a small student savings that I wanted to use to build my house in Afghanistan. I took that money as seed funding to build a website and pay the journalists working with us in Afghanistan. That’s how the idea was born. I just wanted to write stories. I didn’t know anything about building or running an organization. I didn’t do any research because I was so passionate about reporting and telling stories. When I started the organization, I faced immense difficulties and challenges. I realized what it takes to build and run an organization. It is a tremendous amount of work.

Looking back now, two years later, I am glad I did it, but it’s a lot of work — really.

Jacobsen: Yes, yes.

Nader: Especially for the person who initiated the work, because you have the responsibility, and a lot falls on your shoulders. You have to push and push. But I’m happy to say that we have survived. We started thinking about Zan Times in May 2022, and now it is May 2024. We launched our website on August 8, 2022. This August will be our second anniversary. We have been able to tell some good, under-reported stories that you might not find elsewhere. We are also lucky to be recognized for our work internationally. This gives us hope and validates the work we want to do. What we do at Zan Times is the kind of journalism that comes from our heart. What women go through in Afghanistan and what they experience are also experienced by women journalists who are reporting those stories.

Jacobsen: So you have to experience what they experience.

Nader: Yes, exactly. Not having any rights. It’s hard to imagine your life if someone said, “Because you are a man, you cannot go outside, you cannot dress the way you want, you cannot go to school.” Your life seems meaningless. You have no purpose to live for. The people in power say you have no rights, and suddenly, you lose everything. It is hard even to imagine it, let alone experience it. That’s what my colleagues also experience. Working with a group of primarily women journalists who experience the same restrictions and realities as the women whose stories they tell makes it different.

Jacobsen: They talk about moral courage and injury at the conference. They talk about trauma and answer questions about individuals who’ve had their rights stripped. What is the moral injury there? They have to act in a context that, to many Western audiences, seems like a black box. Once American troops retreated and left civilians destitute, we don’t know. It becomes a black box. You talk about telling stories that no one else can tell. It’s about moral courage despite moral injury and not having a context to do it. One thing you mentioned earlier was that these women are writing under pseudonyms. I assume that they are writing under male pseudonyms.

Nader: No. They are using female pseudonyms.

Jacobsen: That’s cool. The fact that they’re not using male pseudonyms shows even more free will.

Nader: Yes. The environment is very different. I remember initially explaining this to one journalist, and they compared our operations to Hezbollah, saying, “You guys seem like Hezbollah or something.”

Jacobsen: Hezbollah? That’s an interesting analogy.

Nader: Because of the risk associated with our work, We tell our colleagues that only their emergency contacts should know they are working with us. Only family or friends should know if necessary.

Jacobsen: How much time are they spending on these articles? People must ask questions if they are working all this time.

Nader: We have a small group that works full-time with us. We also have a network of freelance journalists who write different stories for us. Our colleagues don’t know each other in Afghanistan. For example, if two people work for Zan Times, they don’t know each other. This is due to security threats. If one of them is identified, they could be tortured into revealing the identities of others. That’s why it’s dangerous for them to know who their colleagues are. They use pseudonyms to protect their identities.

Jacobsen: I’ve had to do a lot of anonymous interviews.

Nader: Oh, yes.

Jacobsen: As you know, Pakistan is not a friendly country for girls or freedom of expression and freedom for non-believers. They have cyber blasphemy laws. Several years ago, four people were taken in under these laws. One of them was the vice president of the Atheists and Agnostic Alliance of Pakistan.

Nader: That’s a courageous organization to have.

Jacobsen: In North America, it wouldn’t be a huge deal. You’d face regular prejudices, but not at that level. He and I were supposed to do an interview. This happened with several others as well. He was taken in by the military police and jailed under this blasphemy law. The United States Commission on International Religious Freedom, a bipartisan organization, listed his case. His name is Abdul Waheed, although there are legal complications. On January 8, 2001, he was sentencedto death. A week or two ago, someone who used to be on PalTalk with him emailed me. They said he was civil and respectful to sincere believers in Islam who lived in Pakistan. He wasn’t a belligerent non-believer. Supporters email journalists like me for protection and legal reasons, suggesting anonymous interviews. The obvious answer for journalists is yes, of course, for safety.

Nader: That’s all our work. We don’t use any names for the people we talk to because most of them are fearful. If the information goes out and they are found, their lives are at risk. It takes a lot of courage to speak when you know you might be killed for telling the truth. This is also true for journalists. Many journalists have been arrested. Women cannot do anything except be midwives or teach in primary schools. Girls can only study until grade six. They might find some private sector jobs or creative ways to skirt restrictions, but they are banned from most jobs. In most provinces, their voices are banned from radio, and their faces are banned from TV. Even before, women journalists had to cover their faces. Since the Taliban came, they have gradually enforced these restrictions month by month. Now, they have banned the coverage of women’s issues. We spoke to a journalist who reported on the mental pressure on women who lost their jobs and identities. He was questioned and interrogated for that story. Another journalist reported complaints about the Taliban and traffic and was questioned. This shows the level of repression. We specifically cover human rights, which the Taliban do not want to be reported.

Jacobsen: Human rights?

Nader: They say it’s all lies and a Western construct. They claim it’s about Islam, Sharia, and what God says. And they claim they know what God wants.

Jacobsen: This plays into the hands of Western conservative Christians who want to vilify Muslims.

Nader: Yes, exactly.

Jacobsen: It has currency with the population to whip up hysteria for the political base and pull those on the fence into stereotypical rhetoric. On the other hand, it supports those in those areas who claim to implement faithful Islam, using it as rhetoric to combat liberal Muslims.

Nader: Exactly.

Jacobsen: Ordinary Muslims then have to deal with the lack of support from stereotyping and the nonsense of stereotypes combating stereotypes. It’s like they’re dealing with their own “Texas” equivalent.

Jacobsen: And that’s what you’re seeing.

Nader: Exactly. Most reports by human rights organizations, the UN, and others say the Taliban have committed crimes against humanity, especially regarding women’s rights in Afghanistan. No country has banned women from fundamental human rights like education as the Taliban have.

Jacobsen: This is institutionalized at a government level where those in power say, “Because you’re a woman, you cannot go to school or leave your house. You have to dress as we dictate.”

Nader: Exactly.

Jacobsen: While it’s not to that extent in other places, if you look at the United States, there was a direct attack on women’s reproductive rights.

Nader: Yes, exactly.

Jacobsen: Russia repealed the domestic abuse law, allowing husbands to beat their wives legally without repercussions. There might be social repercussions, but not legal ones.

Nader: Yes, unfortunately these issues exist even in countries where women might have more freedom and rights and that is sad.

Jacobsen: In China, there’s a shame-based culture. The term “leftover women” shames women who aren’t married or don’t have children after a certain age.

Nader: The sad point is that this is happening in Afghanistan for the second time. The world seems ignorant of taking any action. This is not only about women’s rights in Afghanistan but about women’s rights globally. What is denied to women in Afghanistan could be denied to women elsewhere. There is no international pressure or action to address this and ensure basic human rights are given to people. Half of the population is denied rights because they are women. The LGBTQ community also faces a death sentence if discovered. They don’t have a choice about their gender, but they are punished for it.

Jacobsen: LGBTQ rights are criminalized in other countries, too.

Nader: Yes, and systematic oppression of women exists in many places. Afghanistan, however, has institutionalized gender apartheid. Women are penalized for being born female. Even before the Taliban, there was discrimination. I experienced it. Society looked down on me because I was a woman, and I was told I couldn’t do certain things. It wasn’t about my ability; it was society’s view of gender. Yes, so basically, what’s happening in Afghanistan is lowering the bar for women’s rights globally. This is scary because it could be replicated elsewhere. There are no international actions to reverse it or make those in power accountable for their actions. Countries like Norway are giving platforms to the Taliban and apparently say, “I condemn what you do, but I am very keen to be your partner. I am very eager to work with you and engage with you.” As Afghan women, we feel betrayed by the world and how it is treating us. Our rights and humanity don’t mean anything as long as the Taliban are committed to being partners with these other countries.

It’s also ironic for these countries to work with terrorists to fight against terrorists. It’s a strange form of chess with lives, not just the West but the world deals with when they are looking to gain a slight advantage for their country. This dangerous game often blows up in people’s faces, especially those who don’t have much stature in life. This is a death sentence for them because they have been treated as pawns in this chess game.

Jacobsen: In other words, we want to replicate or sympathetic men want to help replicate some of these efforts for basically independent guerrilla journalism in a very theocratic state or a dramatic social-critical system. What are some of the main mechanisms of self-protection? What should be kept in mind?

Nader: Firstly, we must acknowledge that no story is worth a human life. That is the mindset we operate with. We don’t want any journalists to put themselves at risk when telling a story. I know that whatever I say, do, and cover, there isn’t a Taliban gun pointed at my head. But that is the case for my colleagues who are functioning in Afghanistan. They make decisions about their situation and the stories they want to cover. If they feel that covering a story will put their life at risk, I want them to refuse to work on that story.

For example, if there are stories that we deem essential, but it is dangerous to be covered by the journalists inside the country, then they provide the information, and we, from outside the country, call in and cover those stories. Sometimes, people who have been victimized or experienced rights violations are more willing to speak with us from outside the country, knowing the Taliban does not have immediate power over us. They fear sharing a story with local journalists who could be arrested by the Taliban. We operate with an awareness of the risks and take precautions to minimize them. One of these precautions is for our colleagues to work anonymously, using pseudonyms. They deserve credit for their work, and we can always credit them appropriately when the situation changes. Until then, we must keep them safe and enable them to work. Most of our work is done remotely. Many of our colleagues stay in their homes, conducting interviews via phone. They cover their communities and have networks to gather information. When they cannot make the call, they send the information to us, and we make the call from outside the country to tell the story.

This collaboration works for us, with one group outside the country and one inside. If we need comments from the Taliban, those of us outside the country handle it to avoid any direct connection between the Taliban and our colleagues inside the country. We know the Taliban is looking to stop our operations, and if they can, they will.

We are constantly thinking about how to stay one step ahead of the Taliban. They want to censor us and make it impossible for us to work, but we find ways to report on stories they don’t want anyone to know about. For example, women in Afghanistan have been committing suicide in great numbers due to the despair of living under current conditions. Globally, more men commit suicide compared to women, but our investigation shows that Afghanistan is changing the trend. In Afghanistan, more women are taking their own lives, making a statement that they would rather die than live under these circumstances.

Living without rights and purpose is unbearable. There is no hope, no light at the end of the tunnel. The Taliban are trying to strip women of their identity, treating them like animals. We are human. You cannot live without purpose, rights, or any power over your life, and this drives women to end their lives. These are the stories we aim to tell.

Jacobsen: Safety precautions are tricky for the type of journalism your journalists do. They have a lot of concerns. I’ll give some context for those reading this, doing similar journalism, or at least those interested. Regarding digital safety, how do they keep their electronic data secure and their identities anonymous?

Nader: It’s very difficult for our colleagues because we work in an environment like Afghanistan. Even before the Taliban, we needed to be more technologically aware of the risks we faced. Many people use Facebook with little knowledge of digital safety. We learned more about these risks after the Taliban takeover, mainly how they tried to infiltrate WhatsApp groups and other communication channels.

One method the Taliban use is checking the phones of individuals they arrest, even at checkpoints. Knowing this risk, we advise our colleagues not to take smartphones outside. When they go out, they use simple phones that don’t contain work-related information or sensitive contacts and photos. Unfortunately, our colleagues can’t move to Signal because most of their sources use WhatsApp. We have received digital security training from various organizations to help us understand the risks, but we still have a long way to go. It’s a combination of thinking about digital security and the physical security of our colleagues. Most risks are not just online; they can come to your home. To mitigate these risks, we sometimes ask colleagues not to work for a while after covering critical stories to ensure their safety.

In Afghanistan, the level of risk varies by province. Some areas are less risky for journalists, allowing them to cover specific topics and interact with the Taliban. However, in other provinces, even a simple interaction, like a woman speaking with a male journalist, can be dangerous.

Since we work with women, our priority is having them work remotely. This method is safer than in-person interactions.

Jacobsen: How do you keep women physically safe? Is secrecy their only protection?

Nader: Yes, secrecy is crucial for physical safety. Our newsroom takes security very seriously. I started this work to enable women journalists to report on the most oppressed group under the Taliban — women. The working conditions for women journalists are harsh. Last year, we spoke with many women journalists across Afghanistan. Some work for free, particularly in the north, because their media outlets only pay male journalists. Others, especially in the West, struggle to find jobs because employers fear Taliban visits and the need to maintain gender segregation.

Harassment is rampant. Even before the Taliban, Afghanistan’s newsrooms were not very safe for women. Now, the situation is worse. Women journalists face sexual harassment and discrimination. Some Taliban members harass them, believing that any woman working outside is “immoral.” This makes it incredibly difficult for women to continue their work.

Jacobsen: What about the role of women who support the oppressive system?

Nader: Women who support the oppressive system fall into two categories. First, women are working with the Taliban, such as police officers, who help torture and capture other women. Most of these women have no choice but to comply, they fearing for their lives.

The second category includes NGO leaders, former politicians, and businesswomen, many with Western passports. These women visit Afghanistan, advocate for engaging with the Taliban, and paint them as an “opportunity” for peacebuilding. They return to their safe lives abroad with money and support, essentially whitewashing the Taliban’s actions. These women are dangerous because they betray the interests of Afghan women, protecting their own material interest and privileged positions.

They claim that the international community should engage with the Taliban, but the Taliban continue to impose more restrictions on women. The international community is sympathetic to these narratives and continues to give a platform to these women. Yet the Taliban’s treatment of women amounts to crimes against humanity, as noted by the UN Special Rapporteur for Afghanistan. However, no actions are taken to enforce this strong language.

Jacobsen: For women trying to flee Afghanistan, what countries are safe havens?

Nader: Unfortunately, there are not many safe havens. The most accessible countries are Pakistan and Iran, but women often face deportation or imprisonment there. In Iran, Afghan refugees are oppressed by the Iranian government and face extreme racism, adding another layer of difficulty. If women reach Western countries legally, they might find better circumstances despite cultural and language barriers.

Jacobsen: Thank you for sharing these insights. It has been an enlightening discussion.

Nader: Thank you.

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