On Allama Ayaz Nizami: Anonymous Former Paltalk Participant
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2024/06/19
I have been following and working intermittently on the ‘Ayaz Nizami‘ case for years, including others affected by theocratic encroachment on the rights of citizens in Pakistan, providing some coverage. I receive emails from time to time. There are more prominent cases, such as Gulalai Ismail and Saba Ismail, impressive women human rights defenders. Here, we get a perspective from someone who interacted with Nizami over Paltalk.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Thank you for taking part in this and for reaching out. When ‘Ayaz Nizami’ was initially talking on Paltalk, what was the legal situation in Pakistan?
Anonymous Interviewee/Participant in Paltalk with ‘Ayaz Nizami’: I believe that after Zia-ul-Haq’s reform of the legal system, any willful desecration of the Quran and blasphemy against the Prophet Muhammad was punishable by imprisonment for life or death.
Jacobsen: What was the general online culture?
Anonymous Interviewee: Fifteen years ago, I did not know ‘ex-Muslims’ existed. I thought I was the only one. Then, one day, to my delight, I met someone on Facebook who had ex-Muslims in their profile. Slowly, I met more and finally joined a group called We. Yes, we are ex-Muslims; we exist. I learned of more groups using this theme on Facebook after being added by friends.
Jacobsen: Who founded Paltalk? How did you find it and become involved in its discussions?
Anonymous Interviewee: Paltalk is similar to the Yahoo chat rooms we used to have. After Yahoo chat rooms closed, Paltalk became popular. A friend from a Facebook group introduced me to Paltalk around 2010–2011, where Pakistani ex-Muslims and Allama Ayaz Nizami were running a room called Freedom of Speech. That is where I heard Nizami for the first time.
Jacobsen: What was the tenor, content, and style of the discussions on Paltalk?
Anonymous Interviewee: I was a silent participant for most of it. I learned a lot about Islam after joining this crowd. Muslims used to frequent the room and have debates and discussions, but they dropped out later because they could not bear to hear anything negative about their Prophet or Islam. I think that is why the debates with Muslims are often not fruitful; they conflate talking about Islam with talking against Islam.
Jacobsen: What was ‘Ayaz’ like on Paltalk in interactions and discussions?
Anonymous Interviewee: He is well-versed in the Quran and Hadith. He is also gifted in speaking, articulate, and eloquent. It was a treat listening to him. He is very well-mannered and polite. Even strict Muslims on Paltalk, though they disagreed with his anti-Islamic stance, respected him. He would often say that with his knowledge of Islam and a degree of Alim, he could have made much money by selling religion the way some muftis and alims do in Pakistan today. However, he said his conscience would never allow him to do so. He wanted to expose what was wrong with Islam. He used to say there is much material on Islam and scientific topics like evolution in English but only a little in Urdu.
Moreover, that is what he wanted to do. He launched the ‘Realistic Approach’ website with articles in Urdu. It should remain banned.
Jacobsen: What was your reaction when you found out Nizami had been arrested? A few others were arrested around the same time: Rana Nouman Rafaqat, Nasir Ahmad, and Anwaar Ahmad.
Anonymous Interviewee: Shock and anger. Anger at Nizami, he was playing a dangerous game doing what he was doing living in a country like Pakistan.
Jacobsen: Have these arrests stifled online activity or discussions at all?
Anonymous Interviewee: The Paltalk group closed, and the online groups fizzled. However, I have seen a rise in ‘ex-Muslim’ YouTubers recently, which is a positive sign. The three prominent ones are ‘Ex-Muslim Sahil,’ with more than half a million subscribers, ‘Ex-Muslim Sameer,’ who is from India, and ‘Adam Seeker,’ who is from Pakistan. They run hours-long live streams debating with people.
Jacobsen: What is the Dars-e-Nizami course done in a madrasa in Pakistan?
Anonymous Interviewee: The Dars-e-Nizami course is a seven-year traditional Islamic course for those wanting to become Muslims. It covers a detailed study of the Quran, Hadith, Islamic jurisprudence, Arabic grammar, etc.
Jacobsen: What steps did Nizami and others take to expand the sense of freethought in countries like Pakistan?
Anonymous Interviewee: Pakistan needs to overhaul its education system and regulate those madrasas completely. Maybe then, in 15–20 years, we will see some changes in Pakistan.
Jacobsen: How can people support cases like Nizami’s and make them accessible so that they can exercise their freedom of expression rights?
Anonymous Interviewee: International pressure? Can they get asylum like Asiya Bibi? Can the IMF frequently keep going for loans to pressure them?
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and time and for contacting me. I want Nizami to get some justice, which would mean, at a minimum, freedom.
Anonymous Interviewee: Thank you for giving me this opportunity. I want to see these people freed. My heart goes out to their families. Nizami has a son and two daughters. I think they have managed to find small teaching jobs to support themselves. His wife suffered a CVST brain stroke in 2023.
Rant: I am from India; hanging with Pakistani atheists gave me a sense of how different people’s attitudes are towards religion in these two countries. Most of the mainstream Indian Muslims are essentially cultural Muslims in the sense that they know nothing about their religion; for them, being a Muslim means offering Friday and Eid prayers, fasting during Ramzan, and celebrating Eid. In India, I can publicly declare that I am an apostate and that I do not believe in Islam anymore and still live, but if I did that in Pakistan, I would be lynched to death. In Pakistan, they breathe, eat, sleep, and Islam. Islam comes before anything. I have been told that Pakistan had a liberal attitude towards religion until Zia-ul-Haq became president in 1978. The primary policy of the Zia government was the Islamization of Pakistan. The legal system was reformed to align with Islamic doctrine. He replaced parts of Pakistan’s penal code with Islamic’ Hudood Ordinances’ to conform with Sharia law. Madrasas received state sponsorship under him, and their numbers grew. I believe that there are around 40,000 madrasas in Pakistan right now. The state of Pakistan is now the result of Zia’s reforms. As I have said before, Pakistan needs a complete overhaul of its education system and needs to regulate those madrasas.
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