Ask A Genius 942: Information by the Definition, Boys
Author(s): Rick Rosner and Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Ask A Genius
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2024/06/13
[Recording Start]
Rick Rosner: So, you sent me close to a dozen definitions of information as defined by various disciplines.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Yes. Then I decided to take a broader, big-picture angle by examining the different levels of information. It fundamentally revolves around incompleteness. Our methods of understanding, such as the scientific method, rely on incompleteness. We must examine specific aspects of reality to obtain accurate information, which inherently limits our models. These mental models are incomplete, subject to degradation, and serve as shortcuts for understanding the world. Even the universe itself exhibits incompleteness in its interactions, as it does not interact with itself instantaneously. Thus, there’s a profound connection between information and incompleteness, regardless of how information is defined or analyzed.
Rosner: I found that the term “information” originated in the 14th century, but I didn’t have time to investigate its historical usage or when the world began seriously considering it. Information theory’s formal study began in 1948 with Shannon’s paper. Therefore, the mathematical and physical study of information is relatively young. I considered information even before receiving your email this afternoon and quickly found myself lacking clarity. One clear point is that, just as all sciences boil down to physics, all understandings of information likely reduce to a fundamental mathematical definition. Shannon’s definition, which involves selecting one choice from many, is a good starting point. The more choices available, the more information is conveyed. However, this may not be the ultimate definition of information.
I thought about Schrödinger’s cat, a cliché in popular physics references. It’s often used in TV shows or movies to signify complex quantum physics concepts. For example, the show “Dark Matter” begins with a lesson on Schrödinger’s cat. The cat, existing in a superimposition of alive and dead states until observed, illustrates our model of it. However, within the box, the cat is definitively alive or dead once the vial of poison is triggered. The universe can detect the cat’s state without our observation. Thus, superimposition does not occur in the actual world. The cat’s state remains unknown to us if placed in an isolated sphere, regardless of the scientists inside. This localization of knowledge raises questions about the necessity of knowing for existence. If matter is information in an information processor, the states of matter might not impact associated consciousness. We’ve discussed various levels of information and consciousness, yet confusion persists. Over the past decade, it’s evident that events in a star’s center leave no record. They must occur due to causality but transpire without a permanent record of particle interactions. This does not imply quantum superimposition governs these events, as they are causally determined.
Jacobsen: Physical laws, while fundamental, do not negate emergent properties like hot and cold. Emergent properties, such as sensations, exist in the world but not at a fundamental level. They simultaneously exist and do not exist based on the scale of observation.
Rosner: The sensation of hot and cold, or the concept of self, are emergent properties. They are artifacts of brain processes, with physical laws emerging from information principles. These laws, while nebulous, become less so as the universe accumulates more information, matter, space, and time.
Jacobsen: To fully understand existence and knowledge, we must consider interactions at a fundamental level.
Rosner: The universe defines itself through particle interactions, which may not always be known or leave a trace. Yet, these interactions are implicated by the matter’s behavior, forming a statistical structure based on historical interactions. It’s the traces of interactions that give solidity to the world. The implied existence of countless interactions in a star’s core, though unrecorded, is necessitated by physical laws.
Jacobsen: Perhaps a comprehensive theory of physical law is unnecessary for understanding the principles of existence. Interactions, even without leaving a detailed history, imply the events that must have occurred based on the behavior of matter.
Rosner: An understanding can be reached without delving into physical laws, focusing instead on the principle of non-contradiction. A thing cannot exist in a contradictory state. Superimposed states indicate possible states due to incomplete information.
Jacobsen: Emergent states and recursive structures in time and space may characterize the information structure of reality.
Rosner: Many things that make the universe solid are implied rather than explicitly known. This implied history of interactions gives rise to the emergent properties we observe. As emergent properties develop, they rely on increasingly stable frameworks, despite their shaky foundations.
Jacobsen: The duality of existence in information suggests that phenomena fundamentally do not exist but do so emergently, akin to wave-particle duality. Considering possible universes, each with exact quantum characterization, presents complexity. Moving from one possible moment to another, we carry forward only the necessary information. We are not dealing with existence in binary terms but with a continuum where things are more or less existent.
Rosner: Larger, shorter-lived entities have more prescient existence due to gravitational clumping and macro information processing. The universe, like our mind, processes macro information, with micro interactions often going unnoticed. Micro interactions are locally known, just as only people on Earth know about cats. The universe, understanding its constituents, cannot know specifics of micro interactions.
Rosner: We’ve identified pieces for discussion to arrive at an understanding, yet much remains to be figured out.
Jacobsen: I would like to schedule another session to focus on top-down, recursive structures rather than bottom-up construction. Maybe there is something about emergent states with a recursive facility as well. If you consider Chris Cole’s attempts to find all these recursive loops within various biological systems in the human body, there might be a larger framework in which to characterize the information structure of reality as recursive in time and space and emergent properties, which would include time and space.
Rosner: At the very least, many things that make the universe solid are tacit and implied, involving not just histories that leave a trace but also those that are implied. These things had to have happened given that there is this much matter performing various actions. We do not have an exact history of the events, but we know they must have occurred, given the behavior of matter.
Jacobsen: It is not only matter. I refer to each magnitude as it develops more and more emergent properties that, while fundamentally not existing, rest on an increasingly less probabilistic framework as things become more solid. I would include concepts like the self or the quality of experience in this category. These emergent properties do not fundamentally exist but nonetheless exist on a very shaky foundation. What I am suggesting is a dual principle that paradoxically views phenomena in the world of information as both fundamentally non-existent and emergently existent, this emergent duality is similar to wave-particle duality, depending on the perspective.
Rosner: Now that I consider it, especially in the context of all possible universes, there is some oddness because each member of this set has an exact quantum characterization. Information or histories are often only implied after events play out. When time passes, we move from one possible universe, one possible moment, to another. Each possible moment contains much more information, exactly specified, than survives the process and is transmitted from moment to moment. We specify one of countless possible states, but the wider universe does not require that much specification. So, I am confused.
Jacobsen: We are not simply examining existence or non-existence. It is like a radio dial, tuning things into existence more than tuning them out. The question for me is why larger, typically shorter-lived entities have a more prescient existence in the universe when the foundations are shaky and probabilistic.
Rosner: The business of the universe involves gravitational clumping, tied to much of the universe’s macro information. The universe functions as an information processor, similar to how our minds process information. It is the macro elements that impinge on our awareness, while the micro interactions often leave no trace. Micro interactions, even when they do leave a trace, are only locally known. For instance, only people on Earth know about cats. The universe, as macro information, imagines evolution occurring among its constituent information manifested as matter but does not know the specifics of these micro interactions. This topic is ripe for further thought and discussion and can be sorted out within 200 years but remains wide open. Is that reasonable to say? We have discussed some pieces that need to be debated to arrive at an understanding, but there is still a lot of room to figure this out.
Jacobsen: Yes. I would like to have another session if you have time. However, I want to focus on top-down, recursive structures rather than bottom-up, Lego block, Minecraft-style world-building.
Rosner: Okay.
[Recording End]
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In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.
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