Mandisa Thomas on Mental Health of Secular Leaders

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2024/05/15

Mandisa Thomas is the Founder of Black Nonbelievers, Inc. One of, if not the, largest organization for African-American or black nonbelievers or atheists in America. The organization is intended to give secular fellowship, provide nurturance and support for nonbelievers, encourage a sense of pride in irreligion, and promote charity in the non-religious community. Here we talk about the mental health of secular leaders.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: It has been longer than usual since the last talking. We were going to talk about things that we take as peripheral in a lot of the secular communities of all stripes, like church and state separation, LGBTQ rights, and stuff. However, we forget more broadband things that everyone deals with, which is, at some point, someone in their life will suffer from minor to significant mental health issues. You have dealt with blows and a lot of public presentations. It is different than dealing with things in private. It adds a layer of stress. How have you dealt with your issues of mental health concerns in the last little bit? What have you done in the previous few years to provide practical support for yourself when those issues arise?

Mandisa Thomas: The issues of black church-state separation, Christian Nationalism, and everything that we are working towards or fighting against definitely create some stressful situations and can cause depression in people, especially in leadership. I think it is important to point that out. For myself, as far as the community building aspect, which can be extremely stressful when it comes to informing people about these issues and getting them involved, it can bring on feelings of despair, depression, and hopelessness at times. We, as leaders, are always expected to put on this brave, courageous face. We are supposed to be the community’s spokesperson, especially those who do not have one. To them, we are. However, it does cause an extra level of stress that many of us need support for—some of the actions that I have taken over the years. 

Four years ago, I decided to get myself a therapist and focus on my mental health. I have talked to my therapist once a month for the past four years, which has helped me deal with my stress, anxiety, and any depression that I may be feeling. Most of that centers around what I can do as an individual and a leader and my responsibilities. However, it also validates that I am heard, my concerns are significant, and I am not ‘crazy’ if you will. I am worthy of any improvements I need to make throughout my life’s journey and my journey through activism. I also exercise regularly. I have been doing so consistently for the past four years. I talk to folks with whom I am close within the community. It has been beneficial during hard times. Also, I started taking antidepressant medication last year, in 2023, when I realized that I suffer from anxiety. I need additional assistance in learning how to deal with it. I realized. I cannot cure or eliminate it, but I can control it. I took a combination of seeing a therapist, exercising. So, it has helped balance out my mental health. 

Jacobsen: Have you seen other leaders whom you took a cue from, or did you take a cue from, to provide mutual knowledge of what works and what does not, or simply those who want to give you a hard time? Are there additional supports you can get from other leaders?

Thomas: Absolutely; one of the best pieces of advice I received from a dear colleague, Gayle Jordan from Recovering From Religion, and others, gave me feedback on how to communicate on social media. I have been taking stock of that and revising my approach to venting my frustrations. Even though, at times, it is very valid. At the same time, I realized that, especially in the face of some things that happened last year, it was the best thing I could have done, which was to curtail at least some of the things that I have said because it would not have been the best thing to do. So, it was between her and others, as well as some new leadership with Black Nonbelievers (Inc.), who helped me suppress those thoughts of anger and the want to retaliate verbally. We all realized it was not the best thing to do because my work speaks so much for itself. I did not want to do that. I had to remind myself of that. I am grateful that there were people in my corner who also reminded me of that. Because, especially during the tough times, I know many of them also have their therapists. I could take their advice and get examples of how they did things, which helped me improve – especially in the past few years and the past year. My responses show how I was able to improve as an individual and as a leader. 

Jacobsen: What about individuals who are leaving? We have talked about this in different topics, but not this one specifically: religious faith and finding groups like Black Nonbelievers and the American Humanist Association. They are coming out of the black church or the African American church. It is not as easy a process for many, not all, as it would be for Euro-Americans or white Americans. What are some of the additional burdens they are dealing with individually and bringing in all sincerity to organizations like Black Nonbelievers and the additional stressors in leaving, for many, a lifelong and profoundly involved community life?

Thomas: So, many former believers and those transitioning out of religion are not just deconstructing the concept of God. They are also deconstructing and relearning how to handle things without this belief. More often than not, the go-to has been to give it to God, pray about it, or talk to Jesus. So, once you leave or deconstruct, there is no more Jesus to speak to. There is a realization. At times, it is a scary realization that, for many of them, it is up to them to resolve those issues. Other indoctrinations come along with being a believer.

Some people fear ghosts and other supernatural phenomena that they have been taught to believe or have been conditioned to think about. It is also terrifying for them to let go of it. They bring those fears, those hesitations. They get, even in many cases, trauma with them. So, the challenge now for them and us is how we build on this work and healing from these things, and how we are listening, how are we also being objective enough to say, “We can look beyond and work through your fears, not that you have to get over it, but you can get over it with others who have been there.” Yes, it is essential that, if it is necessary, you seek a mental health professional because, sometimes, some individuals are paralyzed by those fears. They do not deserve to be paralyzed by those fears. The challenge: How do we help each other understand that there is a power from within that many have been taught to believe that they do not have but do now? It is individuals’ responsibility to help themselves and to take strides in the community of people who have been through it. It is about listening, learning, and being supported enough to the point where you can engage in the community to get more help. Even if there are issues to the point where they might as be a religion to them, if they have yet to unpack those issues on a personal level, then it would become more difficult for them to deal with on a public scale or a more collective scale. It is essential for us as an organization and as a community to help people find ways to deconstruct in a manner that is ongoing to their improvement so that they can engage with the community healthily. So they continue to grow and healthily grow beyond those indoctrinations. 

Jacobsen: What about the gendered aspect to this, too? We talked about this a while ago. Men will come out of a church with higher status in the community. They come to an atheist group, a non-theist group. They act as if or expect a similar stature or expectation of holding the proverbial floor. Is there a gendered aspect to religious practice regarding health concerns, where men may be coming to the community? Generally, they do not seek the help they need or take the individual initiative to take personal responsibility for the mental health concerns that may be coming from being steeped in a very dogmatic community and group.

Thomas: I have seen men and women, and of course, cis and trans. This is common across the board. In a community where men often have the dominant voice, they still have it. When you come into a community that values evidence and is supposed to value human understanding and compassion, it can be very challenging for folks to be told they are wrong or mistaken. That there are things that they can do better. There are so many stigmas about what a “man” should be. That is often hopeful to these individuals because they may not realize how they hurt others and themselves. What I think needs to happen more often than not is the same way we challenge other white people to challenge themselves on racial justice issues. Some things are intergender if you will. Some conversations need to occur, which, perhaps, men can help other men better understand before they come to a table with either the opposite gender or what have you. At least, that is the starting point. Also, getting to the truth of why they feel this way could be trauma or abuse. Things that they may not have confronted. A lot of this can be better resolved by people looking within and being honest with themselves about why they think this way- whether on a societal or a personal level – and seeing if we can get to a point where we can address and turn them around. Understanding will not happen overnight. It may need some time. It may require some things you must be conscious of and deliberate about, even though it can be exhausting. You know it is helping people. However, men and women have bought into this for a long time. They are perpetuating these notions without even realizing it. They can start breaking down those institutional factors but begin on an individual level first. 

Jacobsen: What about individuals typically not recognized, if not demonized, in traditional religious communities? Nonbinary people, trans people, and American citizens who happen to have grown up in a Christian community are not in the conventional categories that these people are thinking of. Yey, they come to a more progressive group that is more affirming and accepting of them. Do you find there is a different intake psychology of individuals who come from that background?

Thomas: Of course, for those who identify as trans, LGBTQ and even people of colour, the trajectory of religion is that you are doubly devalued. Not only are you devalued, but people think that your life should be taken. So, a coming to those states from a religion that believes that you should not even exist. They could be perpetuating those things, ideals, without even realizing it. We must understand that there are times when we are guilty of it. When it comes to what is considered proper or at the top of the hierarchy, it is essential to understand how valued we are as individuals. Something that religious groups are trying to – some of them – maybe turn around, but there is still the condescending belief and the narratives. People can see through that. Having a basis in evidence and being objective, but also incorporating more compassion, which is something our community still lacks. Incorporating the understanding with the education and the information will make all the difference for everyone involved. It will help us to unpack, understand, resolve and undo many of the harms that these societal norms and some of these institutions – especially these religious institutions – have perpetuated.

Jacobsen: What would you consider your immediate concern now, personally and organizationally?

Thomas: The immediate concerns are those who still allow themselves to be emotionally separated. Unfortunately, certain religious demographics perpetuate an end-of-the-world mentality and action. So, unfortunately, many individuals are bringing this with them. I think an immediate concern is trying to unpack that and deconstruct that, whether through clinical help – e.g., a therapist, peer support group – or individuals who understand and have been where you have been. Also, having individuals who will not simply talk at you but will speak to you and listen, I think, sometimes, as people, we want quick resolutions. We always want to resolve problems immediately, but we must understand that these solutions take time. Some will take much time.

Some of them will be painful to work through. However, we need to be patient with each other and ourselves while also understanding that we are responsible for improving ourselves – allowing ourselves “grades” for lack of a better word. Understanding, especially whether you are an individual or in leadership, is essential; we are imperfect. We are human beings. It is okay to make mistakes. We will make mistakes along the way. It is necessary to understand that we do not walk this walk alone. That others are there to help. However, we must also do more to help others and gain a better understanding. You have to learn how to be better supported, especially if you are part of a community. It has to take teamwork. That is a major, immediate factor that people should understand. It is teamwork, whether on a collective and causal scale or more personal, intimate, and sensitive issues. For those in our circles that we can trust, we all need to work together on these things. 

Jacobsen: What immediate concerns should individuals in the Black Nonbelievers community bear in mind that they could handle individually compared to something they should hold as a community? Are there structures in the secular community of which you are aware that deal with mental health concerns as a community, other than Recovering From Religion, for instance?

Thomas: Yes, so, what is essential for black nonbelievers, in particular, to understand and be mindful of is that many issues impact us, and we have seen them play out on social media. As we have seen on TV and in the news, those things are essential, while these collective issues are important. We must still take time to focus on our health. Often, we neglect ourselves for the sake of the cause or the problem. We have to realize. We need to take care of ourselves to work on these issues. Being able to decompress, if you need a social media break, you should take one. There are certain things.

We must live to fight another day. It is important for many of us not to let these things overwhelm us to the point where we are exhausting and killing ourselves because that has been a burden for us for so long. We do not realize. We may be oversaturated or over-immersed in some of these issues, which impacts our mental, emotional, and even physical health. For black nonbelievers, deconstructing religion, in particular, is essential. Coming from a community where you are not allowed to have that space for yourself, it is okay to do that, but also to understand that you do not exist in a vacuum. There are resources. You can get the peer support you need, but you have to rest to utilize them. If there are resources offered, please do take them. 

Jacobsen: What about individually? You mentioned an American Idol singer named Mandisa, born on the other side of the country, who died recently. Her death is still under investigation. So, it is still new. However, his death brought a few things forward for you. Can you express some of the reflections for us?

Thomas: Yes, so, I, unfortunately, heard about her untimely passing. What hits home for me, in particular, is that the American idol singer Mandisa, of course, shares the same name, the first of which is South African. We are also singers. I was no better singer than her, but we both had that talent. What hits me hard is that she was only a month younger than me. So, we were the same age. Even though she is a Christian. I am an atheist. We share the same name, share the name talent, and also the same age.

Considering some things I have experienced recently, that could have been me. It hit hard, especially because black women, whether believers or nonbelievers, unfortunately, have a tendency to bear so much on their shoulders societally and individually. We do not get the support that we need. We are so busy being a beacon of light for so many people. However, when it comes to our well-being, we often neglect ourselves and are sometimes overlooked by others. Being in leadership certainly hits home for me because I am still in the public eye. So, there are, unfortunately, unrealistic expectations of us. That does not allow us to be human. We are supposed to grin and bear it most of the time. If we do not, we are overreacting. We are angry. Dealing with that can be very, very tough. So, understand why she would have felt that way; if it is the case that her death was self-inflicted, there were reports of depression and mental health issues. I can certainly understand what she was going through now. Did I take the same step? No. I hope more people realize that they are worthy of getting the help they need and are deserving of being strong enough to say, “Hey.” To draw boundaries, take the time required, and receive support when needed, for her to have been so much in the public eye for years, that, in addition to the other similarities, is what made this something hit home, which was mind-blowing. 

Jacobsen: Thank you very much for your time, as always, today. I have done so myself by expressing something many would consider a sensitive issue in a public forum. Improving those conversations more than previous iterations of our calls is essential. 

Thomas: Thank you.

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