Oleksandra Romantsova on Prigozhin and Amnesty International

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2023/12/03

*Interview conducted September 3, 2023.*

Ms. Oleksandra Romantsova is the Executive Director (2018-present) of the Center for Civil Liberties in Ukraine, which won the Nobel Peace Prize in 2022 under her and others’ leadership in documenting war crimes. This will be a live series on human rights from a leading expert in an active context from Kyiv, Ukraine, to complement live on-the-ground war coverage in the war zones from Romanian humanist independent journalist Remus Cernea. 

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, today, we are here for round two with Oleksandra Romantsova or Sasha. We’ll be talking about some updates to the situation in Ukraine vis-a-vis human rights. I wanted to start. There, recently, was a plane crash and an individual, Yevgeny Prigozhin, was killed in that crash, which garnered a lot of media play. What was your first reaction to this? How did human rights defenders see this?

Oleksandra Romantsova: It was not only Prigozhin. So, it was not only him. But officials who killed Ukrainians tortured them. On the side, all of us need to check if it is true or not. If they are just trying to hide, then it’s bad news. A lot of people are killed in Ukraine. They publicly do that. They destroy people.

Jacobsen: People killed under suspicious circumstances, like with a radioactive substance. 

Romantsova: They kill if they violate something.

Jacobsen: Like a hummer.

Romantsova: Yes, a hummer, they kill people by hummer, publicly. They do that publicly and make a video and put it out publicly. So that they will never do that again. My reaction was like this.

Jacobsen: Not surprised. 

Romantsova: Exactly; I am not very surprised because these people are always playing darts. They create relationships only connected with violence. I told you about that.

Jacobsen: It is this culture of violence that we spoke about in the first session that he creates solutions for problematic individuals who become violent. It makes sense. It makes any public murder or killing suspicious with that kind of culture. For Erdogan and Putin, the presidents of Turkey and Russia, they are meeting. Any thoughts on that meeting that’s happening?

Romantsova: Putin, I don’t think we have a lot of news from there. It didn’t sound like a lot of really important news. Every time it happens, something like this. Putin put a brain out. After this, he starts to drill it, shell it, like Odesa. Because before that, Odesa, its region, was like this politician’s preference from the population. They accept. Now, it’s not good at all because Putin destroyed the infrastructure of our biggest port. Odessa has the biggest port and biggest exporter of grain. After this meeting in Turkey, after they started an agreement, they started to destroy not only the port but also the central city. One of the historical churches there. So, a lot of the population was killed, including children. After this, they shelled Chernihiv. It is a city in the north of Ukraine, which was a really strong Russian occupation in March of 2022. That was the first thing. In the center of the city, they had a festival. They destroyed the festival. They heard about the drums and exhibitions. They killed more than 45 people and 11 children. It’s like every time we hear about some occupation Putin doesn’t like. It means that you can be in danger because the rockets can hit any place: civilian objects, humanitarian objects, military objects. Anything, shelling everything.

Jacobsen: You have also noted, to me, volunteers, journalists, activists. They can be, have been, killed, jailed, harassed. What are the numbers that are coming out, even this early in full-scale invasion? 

Romantsova: We started collecting information about journalists, volunteers, and some local leaders from Kherson, because that was a lot of information then. Russia came there and occupied Kherson. They started to jail them, torture them, kidnap them. These people made a major base for the Russian occupation. They are waiting for Russians. That’s why they need support. All of these people, that’s why it’s the addition of some newspapers and web portals that give the news by the names of previous journalists who have the trust of the population. They do that about Russians. The Russians come in and kill off the regime. So, now, we have more than 300 such stories. We need to understand. The same thing happened inside Russia. Because people want to protest in any small way against the war, they are jailed. They politically prosecute journalists, human rights defenders, and activists. People who are trying to do some peaceful demonstration. All of them are jailed in Russia or escape from the Russian Federation. There are 600 people who are political prisoners. 6,000 of them were prosecuted for protesting the war. If they say something at work or say some truth about the Russian Army, they call Russian charges. Russian prosecutors exactly accuse them –  that they lie about the Russian Army. Russians shelled Odesa court. If you speak about that inside Russian, you will be put in jail.

Jacobsen: One thing I have noticed is that I did a similar series, which I’m hoping to do in a similar way with the Russo-Ukrainian War on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I did it with three of the UN special rapporteurs. One of the Human Rights Watch country directors and human rights people in and out of the territories. It was a couple of years. If this continues for an extended period, I will be doing it for much longer. The idea would be to do a number of interviews thematically oriented around a live context. Remus Cernea, Romanian humanist and independent war correspondent, is another pillar of the work that I am doing here. So, one thing I noticed from the Israeli-Palestine context was Omar Shakir, who is the Human Rights Watch director for Israel-Palestine, noted in one of the ten or so sessions that we did. When the IDF forces attack Palestinian territory and people, they could be journalists, medical personnel, and those who are properly armed in conflict. Yet, I believe, according to Norman Finkelstein too, shooting to maim rather than kill was a phenomenon, so that when one looks at the kill count, the numbers are artificially low because that’s not taking into account those who may have had their legs blown off and went back into Palestinian society with no legs, for example [1]. They have no place in that society as a disabled person in terms of things they can functionally do in a limited context in society. Is something similar happening within the Russo-Ukrainian War context?

Romantsova: I will not compare Israel and Palestine and Ukraine because none of us: not Ukraine, not Russia, no high-level developed military like Israel; I mean, Russia: stupid, brutal. Sometimes, they do these things… it’s like all these things you’re talking about is strategy. Russians don’t have a strategy. They put thousands in the Russian jail system because the Russian jail system is huge. You can put thousands in one jail or move them into another. It takes their whole life. Again, Palestine and Israel are a long-term conflict, which started with other countries surrounding Palestine. It is totally standalone from Russia and Ukraine. Ukraine and Russia are in a long conflict. But it’s not about that. Russia is always trying to get land from Ukraine. So, for me, it is too much to compare this population, Ukraine, to Palestine. Russia is just trying to destroy the country and take our lands. It is so primitive in thought. That’s why a lot of people can’t believe it.

Jacobsen: When people are put into these jails and shuttled around…

Romantsova: Look, I am just explaining the situation in the jail. If you are taken to jail, you need access to a lawyer. Your parents or relatives need to know you’re arrested. What happened in Ukraine was taking land and being kidnapped by the Russian Army, taking the northern part of Ukraine and being kicked out from the Ukrainian Army. They kidnapped people and took them into the Russian Federation. After that, they took them to jail. They don’t give access to them. They don’t have any contact with family or relatives. They don’t give them contact with a lawyer. They just put them in jail and give them numbers. Even in Russia, the situation, they give them numbers like livestock, like an object. Now, when they transfer these people from one jail to another jail, they transfer them like furniture. One of our partners, a Russian lawyer, is trying to make contact when they go to jail. It is the name and surname of the person and why they went to jail. “Give us the reason why they are here; what is the accusation? Give us the opportunity to have contact with them. I am their lawyer. I have contact with their family, their relatives.” Russia doesn’t let them do it. They do not have any international or even their own law. They create new laws. Russians don’t like people at all.

Jacobsen: [Laughing]. 

Romantsova: Seriously, they don’t even like their own people. They don’t care about their own people.

Jacobsen: They even repealed the domestic abuse laws. 

Romantsova: Yes.

Jacobsen: It’s a massive regression. These are not symbolic alone; these are regressions. 

Romantsova: So, same with the Russian Orthodox Church. Russian Orthodox Church is exactly about… I don’t like this religion because of its rules. They preach the rules blah-blah-blah, but the Russian Church visits to explain to people why they need suffering lives. They use religion in this way. That’s why we have a problem with the Russian Orthodox Church in Ukraine because of the ties. They have a church. One of the biggest. Now, when they give the, for example, they give the text about why we need to support the Russian Army. Some support the Ukrainian church, but when somebody does that, even if you’re a priest, you need to be arrested. Again, it is national security. Some have given up and supported the Russian Orthodox Church.

Jacobsen: Amnesty International is probably the largest independent human rights body, followed by Human Rights Watch and the United Nations is, obviously, the largest structure and one of the largest bureaucratic structures on the globe. Let’s focus on Amnesty International for the moment; how much are they involved in this conflict, if at all?

Romantsova: Amnesty is not involved at all. 

Jacobsen: Why is that?

Romantsova: Because Amnesty International made a really stupid mistake. It is not really about the record. They show the records. So, Amnesty is a totally disgusting situation, which creates a conflict inside of Amnesty International. I didn’t see this happening in Amnesty offices of other countries when we met. They exactly produced communication text. Then they talked about Ukrainians telling journalists fighting with civilians, and that’s why they make it dangerous for Ukrainians. They told them that they had a record of that. They never showed the record. They never showed actual facts, which caused such confusion. They don’t have direct contact with the Ukrainian minister who has comments. What is the condition around the people who are fighting now? They talked about civilians. Amnesty International did it this way. When the General Secretary put it out this way, ‘Sorry, we were so professional.’ So, I’m just waiting for when they have an election. I hope she will not have another term. Before that, Amnesty International made a great investigation. They have a record of shelling of Mariupol Theatre. It was a big, big thing about children and other civilians who hiding there. Russians don’t care about that. They dropped ADM (T4 Atomic Demolition Munition) bombs and destroyed the Theatre totally. Now Russians rebuilt it. Then they explained that they did it because the Azovs were there. That was a huge thing: Children were here. Nobody thinks about this investigation. This Amnesty International did this stupid communication thing and now all will remember only it.

Jacobsen: This context of severe human rights abuses. There will be United Nations special rapporteurs. Are there any following this conflict, or are any officials from the United Nations appointed to record, collate and collect information from the various human rights organizations on all sides of the Russian-Ukrainian war?

Romantsova: In 2014, we had a special UN mission led in Ukraine. They continued work. I think the general ones like UNESCO and some investigation missions from ECOSOC. We have a few projects because they do missions without permission from the Russian Federation. The OSCE is there too. All of these. We have the offices of the UN here. Most of them have some humanitarian role. Humanitarian missions have not the possibility to gather evidence. Evidence around the questions of war crimes.

Jacobsen: Were there any points of contact that you think would be relevant for the audience today, news-wise?

Romantsova: You need to understand that most of the mission relate to security. They are going to Kyiv, mostly. They are trying to bring the people to Kyiv. It’s not safe to go anywhere. Only UN high-level representative… I will send stuff to you. There is a woman from Geneva. She is going to Ukraine to present the UN mission there. There will be rockets. But you can imagine what would happen in the East or South.

Jacobsen: Sasha, thank you for round two. 

Romantsova: You’re welcome!

—

Footnotes

[1] In Canadian Atheist interview with Dr. Norman Finkelstein entitled “Interview with Dr. Norman Finkelstein on Gaza Now“, I ask and Finkelstein states:

Jacobsen: In contrast to the nonviolent protest tactics of the Palestinians, what has been the main tactic of the Israelis?

Why does this require a pretext, even strained ones, to prevent poor international public perception, in line with the question on media reportage bias? 

Finkelstein: Well, Israel always claims it has a pretext. The pretext this time to the non-violent protest has been two-fold.

First of all, Israel periodically targets Hamas militants or Islamic jihadi militants in the hope of provoking a counterattack with these so-called rockets.

So, Israel can claim it is defending itself. In fact, what it is really hoping to do is end non-violent protests and get the Hamas to use its rockets, so Israel will then have another pretext to go in and slap Gaza.

So long as Hamas does not play along wit this dirty Israeli provocation, Israel has trouble finding a pretext to go into Gaza.

The problem, right now, is that in the absence of media coverage Israel barely even needs a pretext to continue to fire, or to kill and injure, with abandon in Gaza because nobody is paying much attention.

I should add that Israel is highly sensitive to public attention. It has been careful to limit the actual killings and instead have its snipers aim, for example, at the knee caps of Gaza protestors, so as to permanently maim them.

What’s called life changing injuries, which is basically a death certificate to those who get these injuries, it means that you’re disabled for life. You become a parasite in Gazan society. You have no future.

But these sorts of life changing injuries don’t get any media attention because, typically, it just says, “X number of people killed.” It may then say, “Wounded,” but “wounded” is somewhat or very misleading because these are not just wounds in general.

These are calculated, life changing injuries, permanent maimings for the demonstrators.

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