Gáspár Békés on Humanism and Religion in Hungary

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2023/11/14

Gáspár Békés is Secretary and a Founding Member of the Hungarian Atheist Association and a persecuted secular journalist. Here we talk in-depth about secularism, Humanism, youth rights, and religion, in Hungary. 

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: This is an interview with Gáspár Békés. I want to start by taking a step back in the narrative. What was some background for you, and how did you become more interested and involved in the Secular Humanist outlook in the community?

Gáspár Békés: I always enjoy this question because I think there is a fundamental misconception about atheism or at least an argument that’s being used against atheists or humanists, in general, is that they are militant atheists who are pushing for a cause. People don’t have a problem with the average atheist who is, of course, quiet and the problem is just the militant atheist. This is socially problematic because everybody’s born an atheist or a non-believer, and they’re usually indoctrinated into a particular religion. Most atheists do not think about religion in general as a question. So, I was such an atheist myself and after a while, it became clear to me that some of society’s greatest injustices are connected to established religion or organized religion.

My main focus is always on youth rights. So, from a young age, I experienced or witnessed much abuse in the education system in Hungary, my country of origin. I have seen how this had a detrimental effect on society. So, I’ve noticed that unless we educate our children in a particular manner in the school system that makes them responsible citizens while respecting their rights and nurturing their human rights, we will not have a sustainable society. We will not have a critical mass of critically thinking people who can establish and, of course, maintain a democracy and all of its advantages. I realize that when we deal with children’s rights. One of the worst intersections of children’s rights is when it meets the privileges of established religion. So, the difference of handicap of children meets the advantages of established religion, and that’s how we have, most more recently, 330,000 victims of the Catholic church in France or how we had mass graves in Canada or how in Hungary people get sentenced for harassment by the court when demanding an investigation from the church after being molested by a priest as a child.

So, over the years, it occurred to me that established religion has a detrimental role in society and that it is a fundamental hindrance to progress in society, especially in Hungary, where the regime is using established religion as a weapon to further its illiberal and despotic agenda. So, over the years, this resentment gradually grew in me, and my resolve grew. To do something about it and to step up, I felt like I needed to do something. In Hungary, the secular scene in general is in its early and developing stages, and I wanted to be part of this movement. If nobody else feels it, then I have to step up. 

Jacobsen: As we both know, there’s a very long trend now for journalists, independent and not, undergoing harassment, stalking, and abuse of various forms. I’ve experienced it; I don’t talk about it. You’ve experienced it very publicly in Hungary. Why are journalists being targeted in such a significant and pervasive way worldwide? How is this manifest in Hungary right now?

Békés: Well, it’s an interesting question. I want to ask, though: do you mean journalists engaging in secularism or journalists in general? I think there’s a difference. 

Jacobsen: That’s an important point. Let’s focus on journalists in general, and then we can narrow it down to journalists doing secularist work. 

Békés: Okay. I feel like it’s often mentioned that the media is the fourth pillar of governance or power, and journalists have the responsibility and authority to report on societal things; they influence people and society. Therefore, controlling them or, in a way, exploiting them is, of course, always an essential agenda for many political groups or political parties, governments or regimes. Unfortunately, in many cases, journalists are not granted the same protections as other public figures, such as politicians. Therefore, it seems the easiest way for many stakeholders to threaten or harm journalists. If you would concentrate on specific topics that are less reported on in society, these are from less established journalists who are often freelancers and, therefore, have even less protection than a regular journalist. However, we have seen very established journalists suffer harm legally or physically in Hungary or other countries as well.

Jacobsen: How did the Orbán government come into power and begin to make a change towards the highly nationalistic?

Békés: Well, there’s the version of the actual events that happened in a short period, and of course, then we can look at the societal background of it of how they rose to power, but the short version, of course, is that during the 2008 economic crisis, there was a severe mismanagement of governance by the Social Democratic Coalition. This advanced the crisis further in Hungary, and this government made many mistakes, including a semi-public acknowledgement of widespread corruption, which resulted in protests and the resignation of the Prime Minister. Then, in the 2010 elections, the Orbán government won in a landslide victory, achieving a two-thirds majority. With this two-thirds majority, they had the power to change the Constitution and any law they deemed necessary, and they very publicly announced that this was the beginning of a new era and a peaceful revolution.

They abolished the Constitution and put another Constitution in its place, which has been amended nine times in the last 13 years. They started very early in the first year of their governance to change the law on education, media, elections. They made every effort possible to solidify their power. They completely changed the media landscape as well. They embezzled vast amounts of public funds so that they can have control of the media by buying media outlets en masse, using the public broadcasting services as their party outlets, and, of course, use EU money to fund this and mask this as well.

So, in a way, it was a relatively quick process, and it’s an often under-reported fact that when they changed the education law, they explicitly targeted young people and young people’s groups. So, they abolished the veto power of student councils, they abolished most national student bodies and advisory bodies, and they mandated that all children have zero freedom of religion and that children’s faith is decided by their parents until they’re 14, which is, of course, unconstitutional. It’s against the UN convention on the rights of the child. Still, they put this in because, from a very early time, they had this concept that they would use religion and religious institutions to indoctrinate children into a Christian mentality, which they thought would be equivalent to supporting the government or regime. After all, at this point, I wouldn’t call it the government; I would call it the regime, and I’ll get back to the reason why.

So, that’s how they move to power practically, and of course, there are many different stations or milestones they went through over the years, 13 years to be precise, but this is the short version. And then after this, they won consecutively two-thirds majority because, for example, they use so much public money to campaign for their party that it just exceeds everything that anybody else spends. So, to illustrate, most recently, there was a news article about how the governmental party funds just one of its propaganda sites with five times more money than one of the leading parties in the Spanish elections.

Jacobsen: Wow!

Békés: So, the money is just insane; it’s just vast amounts. We have the highest amount of Church funding per capita from the state in the EU, which is another question, but in a broader term, I would say that this has resulted from a lack of actual regime change after 1989. I would say that after 1989, we had an opportunity to fundamentally change how we operate and design certain societal services and systems such as education, healthcare, academia, governance, and different things. I would say the compromise was in 1989, but not much changed. The common denominator was dislike of the Communists, but that was it. All the politicians were very complacent; they were comfortable leaving things the way they were, most notably the education.

So, the education system, which comes from this personal model of education, meaning very top-down, very authoritarian, pretty much not focusing on critical thinking, was left in place. So, yes, a few things changed, and it wasn’t communist propaganda anymore, but I would say the modus operandi remains. So, children were not taught your rights, you cannot exercise your rights, if you try to exercise your rights, you will be reprimanded, you will be abused physically or mentally or emotionally or verbally by teachers even. There are several official reports of how teachers are being used here in Hungary or how children are being abused in the school system by other students, and nothing is being done about this. So, the system was still very much system based on violence or any form of violence. 

So, in this sense, critical thinking skills without the knowledge of how democracy functions or what democracy is, why it is important to them they weren’t equipped to participate meaningfully in elections, let’s say statistically not everyone, of course. But when the elections came, and the Orbán government won the first time with a two-thirds majority only by a few hundred thousand votes, and I would say if those few 100,000 people had been young people who were better educated, it would have made a difference. So, we could have avoided this situation because the regime government, regardless, was blatant about what they wanted to do with Hungary, so it wasn’t a big surprise what they did. This is what people wanted ultimately; this is what they voted for, and of course, the first elections were fair. The remaining ones were not, but the first one was. So, people voted for this, which could have been avoided by a few hundred thousand people who were educated after the change in those more than 20 years. 

Jacobsen: How are these people self-identified as Christian nationalists mobilizing not just in Hungary but in Europe generally and in some of North America as well, where in North America there’s a more specific movement of white Christian nationalism? However, it can be different in Europe or Hungary. How is this manifesting and getting steam, so to speak, within a Hungarian context in the European context? 

Békés: I can talk more about the Hungarian context, but I also have some insight into the European one. In the US, of course, it’s like Evangelicalism, and in Hungary, Evangelicalism, the word itself, for example, means something entirely different. Evangelicalism is just an average denomination of Christianity, like a protestant denomination. It’s like these small churches with a very extreme ideology. It’s a good question because, first of all, there’s a difference in terminology between, I would say, America and Europe in this sense. So, Evangelicalism doesn’t mean the same thing, but like Christianism is evident, that term is very clear, and I think it’s very understandable, so it’s a good one. Well, I think it is also connected to race in Hungary or ethnicity, to be more exact. I wouldn’t say it is as clear that this is part of the agenda, but certainly, there is an undertone. So, of course, the Orbán regime’s policies involve racism as well; mostly racism against migrants or people of colour but, of course, a bit of anti-Semitism as well. So, these are all obviously in the playbook of white Christian nationalists, and this is undoubtedly connected. 

The Hungarian regime is fuelling a lot of these groups, and it’s pushing this type of agenda. So, there’s government support for this activity. It’s unclear how extreme they are supporting, but they incredibly keep mainstream religion. So, the lines are a bit blurred because, in Hungary, I would say the established churches are pretty extreme. In general, I would say that in Europe or other places, we very much focus on white Christian nationalism.

In contrast, the existing churches are already doing extreme damage, and the only difference is that they are established, right? So, we are used to their views or their erosion of democracy or fundamental human rights, and white Christian nationalists are just a new wave of independents who are perhaps sometimes more extreme than established churches, but ultimately, are they? Yes, sure. 

I would say established churches are more innovative. Established churches know that they don’t have to overthrow the government; they have to collaborate with the government to gain favours, gain immunity from any criminal proceeding and just live their lives. It’s the best scenario even in France, considered one of the most secular States in the world. It has been found that 330,000 people were molested, and this would mean the disbanding of such an organization or very severe serious life sentences for people involved on all different levels. None of that is happening, and none of that will happen even in one of the most secular States. So, the question is, do you need to be in power specifically, or do you have to have an avatar of a Christian nationalist like Trump to achieve what you want? That’s the scary part. It’s already there.

In Hungary, I would say these groups are a bit overrepresented because the government is pushing an extreme amount of funding into religious groups and in religion. Our only foreign aid program, for example, is called Hungary Helps, and it predominantly, almost exclusively, helps Christian communities around the world, mainly the Middle East. So, for example, rebuilding churches. When the earthquake happened in Turkey recently, the government was quick to announce that they are helping to rebuild the Catholic church in Turkey, which is the most tone-deaf thing I have ever seen in my life. The whole concept isn’t enjoyable, but somebody’s life is more valuable based on their religion. It’s entirely against the principles of humanism, and yet it is happening. 

The whole agenda is that we help communities where they are less likely to migrate somewhere else, which is, of course, just completely illogical because most migrants are not Christians but Muslims or non-religious or other denominations. So, the share of Christians in migrants from the Middle East is minimal. So, even if building back churches with help, it wouldn’t make much of a difference, but this is the agenda. This is more of a smoke than an actual fire. They support these communities a lot; for example, all the churches in Hungary are publicly funded, all the priests’ positions are publicly funded in Hungary, and even the priests in the Carpathian Basin outside of Hungary, like Romania and Slovakia, are funded by the Hungarian government. The Hungarian government is building churches in Mexico with public funding and all around the world. I know, for example, Trump was also trying to do a kind of Christian aid program. And these people, they learn from each other.

All these, you know, CPAC conferences and whatnot, and these meetings are not just for a show; they do learn. They learn these different tactics and show how to further their agenda, which is a part of it. Before the elections, all priests got a bonus of about 1000 Euros for obvious reasons so the flock would be guided in the right direction. So, I would say Christian nationalism, in a way, is embedded into the governmental system. There are other groups, but it’s interesting because sometimes there’s a crackdown on different groups; for example, these mega-churches exist. There’s only one big mega-church in Hungary, like in the US, and they are embedded with the government. So, they were made an ally very early on so that they are being bought. For example, the Prime Minister’s son started an Evangelical group like a modern one. Their views were not extreme as far as I could tell, but they were gaining popularity a lot because it was like this young group, a lot of music, faith healings, all the bells and whistles you usually put on at this kind of show, and they just disappeared. 

So, my idea is that the established churches just considered this as competition, and they asked the Prime Minister to shut it down, and I think he did. Now, Orbán’s son is a soldier in the military, and his past of youth Evangelism is behind him, it seems, a very abrupt end. There’s a lot of power dynamic and power play behind the scenes of how Hungary manages it; it’s very power-down and top-down control. For example, in Poland, it’s more like a bias; the power dynamic is a bit more even. So, for example, the church helped elect the government but, in turn, asked for a ban on abortions, and they did it. In Hungary, so far, they wouldn’t dare to ban abortions, and there, the dynamic is in a way more even. In Hungary, it’s completely top-down, and of course, the churches do whatever Orbán wants without question. In return, though, they gain complete immunity. So, the government said that there would never be an inquiry into church sexual abuse.

Jacobsen: Oh, Wow!

Békés: Even though, there is documenting of the church abuse cases. I’m sure he found more than 30 victims. There was a book which was a bestseller about this in recent years. Instead of doing anything, the church tried to fire her from her job, so she started writing this book, which didn’t happen, but she was working abroad in Austria, and there was a considerable hate campaign against her, just like me. So, it’s interesting to see that. In Hungary, when they call blasphemy or when they criticize you as an atheist, it’s not really because you’re an atheist; it’s because you charge the powers to be, and if you’re a Christian criticizing the same thing from a secular perspective, you could get the same type and amount of hate. So, this shows that it’s not faith dividing people, but it’s support for secularism or support for dictatorship because it is what it is. The question was a bit broad in the sense of Hungary and internationally, so I’m trying to gather my thoughts here on this. If you can be more specific about Christian nationalism, I can narrow it down. 

Jacobsen: Sure. I mean a side question: Canadians who have a concern about Christian nationalism in Hungary may only know about it because a controversial figure in Canada, Jordan Peterson, had a closed-door meeting with him. What happened there?

Békés: Wow, good question. We didn’t know, did we? Jordan Peterson was in a way in the West, but, of course, also in Hungary. I mean without analyzing Jordan Peterson. Jordan Peterson has done it, but obviously, he’s an intelligent guy at his core. Still, he uses this intellect to sell merchandise, sell himself as a celebrity, and cater to a writing agenda. One of his most recent works was this analysis of the Bible trying to fit into modern society. Of course, it was all theologians and religious people. It was like the circle jerk, many intellectuals. Obviously, there has been a lot of like debunking videos or materials on this whole series. Rationality Rules is one of the channels I watch, for example, and he does a great job at picking apart his arguments. I highly recommend it. This is my go-to thing to see when I want to, for some reason, look into the theological or philosophical aspects of religion, which I usually don’t because, honestly, I don’t have the… I don’t usually engage in faith debates; God is real. In that sense, I’m just as much an atheist as anybody else. Everybody’s faith is their own; I care about how it manifests. So, is a reasonable person in a way that’s what they value, and their ethics, and it’s a question, but it’s not very relevant. But of course, when Christian nationalists push for an agenda that’s fundamentally illiberal, that’s a problem.

Once again, I need to find out where it’s coming from. I don’t care if it’s coming from this religion or that religion or something else entirely; that’s beside the point. So, anyway, Jordan Peterson is part of this more extensive network. He is sensational in Hungary as well, and him coming here for many talks, of course, funded by the government or invited by the government; I believe that the government is using him as an external source of validation because you have to see that Hungary as the international stage is very unpopular especially in Europe, like very unpopular. This is just a tip of the iceberg because in closed-door meetings, everybody knows that the government is just a hack. They’re a totem horse of the Russian Empire or empire media exaggeration at this point, but they’re just a tool, and they’re the tool of the Russian government, and they’re not taken seriously. I don’t think any intelligence is being shared anymore with the Hungarian government like we know the visa restriction now in the US. So, they’re not taken seriously; they’re the laughing stock of Europe not just because of their views, but because they cannot be taken seriously; they’re just a loose pattern. Any source of validation from abroad is helping their cause because they’re starved for attention, and they die for some proof. Of course, Jordan Peterson, for the right amount of money, is happy to provide.

Same with the Pope. I mean, the Pope came here twice in recent years. I usually call it Catholic Pride, and they spent billions of Euros to have a huge procession for the Pope, and they bused in people from all around the country so that they can fill in the rows of crowds. They break in all the students from the religion, from the church, from schools to pump up numbers. The other problem is that the entire spectrum of the opposite opposition thinkers didn’t dare to criticize the visit of the Pope, and everybody was like, “Oh my God, this is so great,” and of course, the Pope is not a liberal. His views are more extreme than any far-right party; for example, no far-right party in Hungary would ban abortion or would say that women cannot be in a position of power and yet the Pope says so and still the Pope is seen as this great leader, or at least Jordan Peterson says what he is. And by the opposition, Jordan Peterson is treated as this fringe figure, and the Pope isn’t.

So, I would say that the government and the regime use these people as an external source of validation, and what happened maybe in this close-door meeting, I’m sure Orbán probably made a few gestures of goodwill towards Peterson. I don’t know. Perhaps Orbán is a big fan; I think Orbán is a fan because I think Jordan Peterson is. So, they both are very similar, I believe, Orbán and Peterson. They’re both pretty intelligent people who are very cynical, and of course, they know what they’re using their power for and their influence for, and I think they have a great understanding of that. Perhaps this was even a genuine conversation about mutual respect for how they manipulate people. 

Jacobsen: How is your case going right now regarding the appeal?

Békés: Oh wow, yes. Well, it’s a very long case, even for Hungary. So, to compare, another issue which had similar circumstances, although not connected to religion, was already finished about a year ago. So, my luck and unluck was that after my first trial, after the appeal, I went to a second court, like a higher court. The higher court sent it back to the lower court because part of the ruling they didn’t find satisfactory, and they didn’t see that it was explained well enough in the verdict. One aspect wasn’t examined well enough. That’s why there’s an extra round, and now there’s an extremely long waiting time in the court. Last time, I think I had to wait 3-4 months to go to the higher court, and now it’s eight months, which is unlawful.

The law could be more precise, and it’s pretty pervasive, but they do say you are supposed to have a trial, I think, in three or four months. That’s what the law says, but it cannot be enforced because it’s more of a strong suggestion, and you cannot do anything about it. So, my subsequent trial will be in March of 2024. Currently, there’s little going on because any documents that will be submitted may be submitted a few months before that. We have presented a position paper; of course, the City Hall submitted a position paper. So, we’re looking forward to it. Now the City Hall, in an interview, said that it was always their goal to proceed this case to the Supreme Court, so that they can have precedence on how government officials have to behave and how they have to bear in their private lives in terms of like public declarations and things like that, which is, of course, ridiculous because this was never their intention.

First, because it’s now very well documented that this whole decision of firing me wasn’t in a rush, they committed all the legal mistakes they could. I can go into it if you want, but let’s leave it at that for now. So, they save all the mistakes. There was an actual idea that they would improve public service by restricting people’s fundamental freedoms, and they would have done it differently. They needed a lawyer employed at City Hall specializing in employment law. The lawyer representing City Hall is a very close confidant of the mayor, and that is his only quality. He is a lawyer specializing in constitutional law, not practical law but theoretical law. He is the worst public speaker I have ever heard; there are recordings, and he cannot formulate sentences. Of course, the whole case is tough for him to defend, but he cannot formulate sentences well and has a speech impediment. I would never make fun of it, and I’m not. Still, I’m saying that they send somebody who has no experience and has, in a way, a lousy outlook in court, and that’s who they sent because it’s more critical for them to have somebody who’s a trusted ally than anyone good at their job.

So, this is this is a massive problem for them. If this was a well-thought-out plan, it is different from how they would have gone. This is just another excuse to cover up their blatant abuse of constitutional law, their blatant abuse of power, their severe discrimination and then just to put an ideology behind it like, “Oh, this was our big plan.” The case still doesn’t support it. So, I’m pretty confident in this case because, from a legal perspective, we know justice and legality can diverge often.

You never really know in Hungary because the courts are… well, they’re not entirely free. The Supreme Court, for example; I wouldn’t say it’s free, but the lower courts are sometimes yes, sometimes no. In this case, it’s hard even to tell the political agenda of the regime because, even though they started the campaign against me; they might use this as an opportunity to punish City Hall, which is an opposition up to them. I mean, they can be very cynical about this. They can be like whoever remembers that we started this; we can say that this city hall discriminates even its allies, and they just push it through the media. So, they might want me to win. We don’t know, or they might not even care. I don’t know, but of course, on the other hand, they can say, “Yes, we should further decrease the Christian liberal agenda, and we should punish those people who speak out against this.” So, we don’t know; it’s hard to tell how influenced the courts are, and it’s hard to know if they are affected in what way.

So, in that sense, my case is progressing well, as far as I can tell. There have been three court trials, and I have won all three of them. As I said, one was partially sent back, but only one-quarter of the ruling was to be re-examined. Three-quarters of the ruling entered into force, which is already detrimental because what entered into force is, for example, the written reprimand I got a day before my firing was unlawful. So, that was an utterly unlawful instruction by City Hall. Of course, no inquiry followed this by City Hall even though their leading official was submitting illegal documents. So, that is enforced. It’s also implemented that I am officially a progressive liberal by designation, which means that I support secularism, pacifism, and children’s rights as was defined by the case. And one point back to the case law, so the case law is in my favour because other officials have made statements on their Facebook profiles or articles before, and they all won in court. So, freedom of expression is protected even if you’re a public official; if you work in a public institution, whatever you do in your private life is private, so you have freedom of expression.

The law says that as a city official or a public official, you can be a part of a party. So, you can even be a part of a party. You cannot represent the party publicly in a way that you cannot, like to be the spokesperson for a party, or you cannot hold office in a party, but other than that, you can be free to do so, and you can like to go to party publicly. So, the law is pretty straightforward, but it says you cannot create an environment, or you cannot make a statement that reflects badly on the public image of City Hall, which, of course, never happened in my case, but they’re still using this fairly big clause to keep on suing. They’re saying they didn’t fire me for an article I had written years prior. To be noted is what the mayor said in two separate interviews that I was fired for articles years before my employment. Still, in the court, they used a different argument that I was fired for Facebook posts that I made during my time there, and these Facebook posts that I did make reflections on the campaign I was the target of. 

I was reflecting on it and trying to call and say that the things I’m being accused of are untrue. Of course, my secular platform is something that’s completely in line with the rules and regulations, so that the whole debate about baptizing children, I didn’t invent that. I just interpreted the law as it should be interpreted. In 1991, I think it was the time of ‘93 when Hungary adopted the UN Child Rights Convention, which explicitly stated that children have a right to religious freedom and belief. So, if you’re baptized into a religion, that freedom is taken away from you.

Jacobsen: That’s correct.

Békés: It’ssymbolic, but it’s taken away. So, this argument is not new; I didn’t invent this. The Baptists invented it. The Anabaptists and the Baptists have been saying the same thing because, actually, in the Bible, nobody is baptized as a child. God himself in the form of Jesus, like we can have this debate, of course, like how much Jesus is himself part of God in a way; he was baptized as an adult. So, if the most holy person as a human being is baptized as an adult and no child is baptized as a child, what is the argument there? So, if it was a fake hysteria, of course, and many people in the comment sections, which is, of course, no way indicative of anything in a way, but it’s interesting to read a lot of Christians are defending my point of view saying that from a factual perspective: yes, the Bible, requires you to baptize as an adult. So, that’s how my case is going. I’m waiting on the ruling. I think public opinion is turning more in my favour. A fairly favourable interview came out a few days ago, and it was good to read many comments and messages from people learning about this case and condemning the mayor very harshly. I’m supporting my case. I’m hopeful about the court trial because the case law so far has been very much in favour of employees. Also, they committed many legal mistakes. I have, of course, for video evidence of the mayor claiming that I was fired for articles years prior, which was forced by default to be illegal. So yeah, I’m hopeful.

Jacobsen: What is the long-term likelihood of the Orbán’s regime in your phrasing lasting?

Békés: It’s a good question, and you mentioned me phrasing it as a regime. I think that’s at the centre of this question. The reason why I use regime is twofold. On the one hand, I use it because it’s not a democracy anymore, and it’s not a democratic government; it’s a post-Democratic government. They changed most of the laws; they wanted to stay in power forever and declared Hungary a liberal and Christian democracy. So, they believe that their rule is the only legitimate rule, and they changed everything in a way that almost makes it impossible for any party to win in that democratic election. They do this very gradually and very openly after a certain point. That’s one of the reasons why I call it a regime.

The other reason I call a regime is that going into a government would imply governance. They’re not governing, which is the scariest part because if you look at other authoritarian regimes, dictatorships like China or Singapore, in a way, there’s a vision, right? There’s a direction. I mean, say at the top, it’s just some rich old dudes who are governing, gaining power, gaining money, doing whatever they want. Sure, but ultimately, there is a vision. It doesn’t exclude them from caring, at least to some extent, about their citizens or the country or upholding their rule or the rule for their children. So, there’s an idea of at least self-sustenance, and there’s none of that in the Orbán regime like they don’t care. I’m not exaggerating. They don’t care, and there are clear examples of how much they don’t care. So, could you take it as you will? This is good or bad, but they don’t care if this regime remains. When solidifying their power and restricting freedoms, they do whatever they can, but when running basic Social Services, they do nothing; they make zero effort. And I’m going to tell you a few examples.

Healthcare: we had the highest death rate per capita in Covid. We have the highest death rates of preventable cancers in Hungary. We have the fourth-highest obesity rate in the world. We perform four times as many amputations as the European average. We no longer have a Ministry of Health, the former Health Minister, because they abolished it. Still, the person responsible in Ministry for this was a Christian Nationalist, and he said that if we would just adhere to the Ten Commandments, we could prevent 90% of deaths from diseases.

Jacobsen: Huh?

Békés: He said that yeah. He was an oncologist, back the fact that they have the highest death rates from cancers. So yeah, they don’t care, like all they want is the loyal people in positions of power. There are a few useful idiots who help run the system who either have this sense that “Oh, I’m going to change the system from within” or “I have to support my family’s money. So, that’s why I’m an underpaid government worker.” I’m sure some people believe there’s still some sense of governance, but there isn’t. People with COVID-19 died for many reasons. Still, one of the reasons was the state of health in general is very low because there are no prevention campaigns for obesity, smoking, or alcoholism. So, this is the amount: for example, substance abusers are extremely high. We are the most alcoholics in the world now. I have to check the exact number because it’s the highest alcohol per capita consumption, but let me check just to be sure. 

So, this is one of the things. The second reason was that there were not enough doctors and nurses. So basically, people were starved to death. They lose so much weight, because there’s not enough staff, so that’s the only way they can be managed. My uncle died this way. He survived Covid, but he lost about 30 kilograms. He was starved to death by staff in a public hospital. That happened to many people. He was 69 years old, but not very old. We have one of the lowest life expectancies in Europe. Oh yes, the actual statistics: we have the highest number of alcoholics as a ratio to the current entire population in the entire world is 21.2%. The ratio of alcoholics is every fifth person has alcoholism in Hungary. 

Jacobsen: Holy shit!

Békés: It’s wild, and of course, it’s part of the plan because this no prevention is part of no government. Making people addicted is part of the plan because people can be more easily manipulated, and sometimes they either slip up or they have a bet and they say very weird things. So, in 2018, the foreign minister said that it is the government’s job to keep wages artificially low. They said that, and they won the election. It was like, “We can still win the elections even if we die straight to their faces. Wages are very low in Hungary because that’s how they can manipulate people with handouts before the elections.” As for the economy, power is extremely low in Hungary because of all of the handouts and manipulations of the market. We have the highest inflation rate in Europe; we recently had almost a 40% inflation rate on food. So, they are sometimes doing some crude tuning to the system, but most of all, they don’t care, and another example would be the education system. About 10,000 teachers are missing from public education because they’re so underpaid, the working conditions are so bad. All the governments before didn’t care about education, but this government or regime cares even less. It could be much money. 

They abolished the Ministry of Education and the Ministry of Environment. So, they install these burners on school districts, which, basically, if you order a roll of toilet paper, you have to go through the central authority in every municipality. Still, the central authority has no real qualifications and often has no money. So, it often happens that there is no heating in a school. So, during the energy crisis, the government mandated that a school be only 18° warm. So, imagine 10-year-olds sitting for 6 hours in 18°. It’s extremely low, and most schools didn’t even reach that. Many schools were like 15-14 degrees for entire days. They don’t care. Ten thousand teachers are missing. You know what they’re doing? They’re firing teachers who are striking because, of course, they ban strikes. So basically, you cannot strike anymore. It says you can strike, but you have to be in the school and be with the kids. That’s the strike law, and you have to agree with this Municipal governor of education on your strike. Of course, they don’t grant you the right to strike even in this limited capacity.

So, people who strike have to resort to civil disobedience and are fired. All the teachers who participated in this, which is a few thousand, will be fired at the end of the year. And there are already thousands of teachers saying that if you go to school in Hungary today, you will not be taught by a professional, like if you go into chemistry class and there’s no chemistry teacher. They fake it. There’s like a literature teacher going in or a physical education teacher; you’re better off with Wikipedia at this point. This is not just one school but public education for you in many ways. So, any regime should care about education because that’s how they sustain, but they don’t care, they don’t care. The only thing they do is like the automotive industry before, like we were trying to make autos like the cars before, and now it’s batteries. So basically, they just invited many Asian companies to manufacture batteries for electric cars. They promise tax breaks and don’t have to abide by any environmental regulation.

So, people are already dying in factories, and rivers are already being polluted, but they just change the laws so everybody can just shut up and not change. For example, they don’t have Polish public hearings. There are no public hearings anymore in Hungary. You can post a link as a municipality so people can just write to you, and that’s it. Then you have to make a report because there was a public hearing on one of the battery manufacturing sites that didn’t go well. So, they just changed the law. In Hungary, there’s a state of emergency now for six years versus migration, and it was COVID-19. Now it’s war. So, the parliament is technically suspended. They can pass laws by decree. They don’t need the parliament. Sometimes, they have a parliamentary session, but they don’t go. The government doesn’t go to debates. They just go in to vote, and whenever the opposition is proposing anything, they can propose it in the minority, even like a session, they just don’t go. There’s not even a pretence of caring about the Democratic process. Whatever is mandatory, they might do it, but that’s it.

If there’s a state of emergency, there’s no democracy. As I said, there’s not even a self-sustenance of the regime, and that’s the scariest part. So, back to the question of how long this will last. It could last for a very long time because they have soaked up EU funds so much, and then they just distributed to their entire families and oligarch systems so deep down that it’ll last generations, and this will be consolidating. Maybe after a consolidation period of decades, there might be a better chance or another run at democracy eventually in an organic way, which has happened in other countries, or we are running towards an entire collapse of the system because basic services are not working, for example, ambulance sometimes doesn’t come because there not enough ambulances and crew for the ambulances. You wait for 50 minutes, and nobody comes.

As basic services continue to break down, eventually, it might come to a boiling point where people just revolt in mass. Of course, you can’t rebel if you tell when a revolution is coming or social arrest. There wouldn’t be such a social arrest because you could predict it, and you can’t, but I mean, so far, people were fairly complacent. There were many protests, but they weren’t huge. One hundred thousand people were the largest, 1% of the population. So yeah, people already proved the point that they don’t care or they don’t have the power, or they don’t have the agency, the knowledge to do anything about it mostly in bigger cities more so, but in small villages, not actually. I don’t know how long this will last, but this is unsustainable. So, if it ever comes to the point that this fails, it will be a point where the basic services are broken down to such a degree that we’re basically like a quasi-fail state. We’re already there; it’s already weak. At this point, we’ve already lost about 20 years of development. 

All the other countries in the region have developed way further. They have progressed way further than we have in terms of quality of life, economy, or other indicators. So, it’s hard to tell. I wish the sooner, the better in any way, but it’s hard to tell.

Jacobsen: Some of the first things that tend to happen in these situations are women’s bodies becoming subject to governmental questions. How are Reproductive Rights or access to abortion in Hungary right now?

Békés: Well, I’m glad you ask because we are engaged in this with the Hungarian atheist society. Abortions are not banned. Abortions are restricted in a way that you cannot have an abortion via a tablet-induced abortion; you have to have a surgical abortion, a completely surgical abortion. They invented some reason why it’s unsafe. Even though, it’s still a medically supervised procedure. So, they defend that. The question is it’s broad, it’s better than just women’s rights because what they banned, for example, is sterilization. So, for example, you cannot have sterilization in Hungary; it’s illegal as an adult to be sterilized even obviously by your own will. A small disclaimer: you have the right to sterilization after the age of 40 or if you have three children, but other than that, no. This is the strictest restriction on sterilization in the entire European Union, and they introduced this in 2014. It was fairly quiet, to be honest, for two reasons. 

First of all, when it comes to women’s rights, women have a wider range of contraceptive methods available than just sterilization. They have the pills. Honestly, there are hormonal and non-hormonal ways of contraception. Of course, I’m very well aware of the challenges of contraception for women, especially when it comes to oral contraception. Still, they have options. Of course, you can ask their partner if it’s a heterosexual relationship and to wear condoms. So, there are options, but for men, the only option is the condom or sterilization. Just a side note for condoms: condoms don’t fit men. I’ve done much research and published articles on how the standard condoms which most leading manufacturers sell do not fit 50% of men. They are brands that manufacture a wider range, which does fit men. Still, they are not being sold almost anywhere except sex shops, and this is a whole another topic for a whole another time, but let’s leave it at that that condoms are all safe when it comes to most market-leading manufacturers.

So, they took away the only other option that men had, and the reason why they did it is because in Hungary at the time, there were no men’s rights organizations. So, like no men’s emancipation movements or men’s rights organization and another disclaimer, I’m not talking about this alt-right incel man’s rights organizations like this counternarrative to feminism. I’m seeing those kinds of movements which highlight that based on your gender, you face different challenges, and of course, this is not a competition. Still, it is more like a mutually reinforcing movement with the feminine base movement; of course, it’s for equality. There is a men’s rights organization like that today in Hungary, but at the time, there wasn’t, and the regime was always pushing in a direction against the least resistance. So, that’s why they’re using religion as well because, for some magical reason, the opposition doesn’t dare to criticize the government on religious matters, or if anything is wrapped in a religious packaging, they don’t dare to criticize it. 

For example, there’s a new law in Hungary that the churches can ask for any public building, and the state has to give it to them for free. I’m not exaggerating, like this is actual law. Priests are public servants, so as a public servant, you can discriminate based on gender, sex, and religion, and you have to be a public servant. How can you be a public servant if public service mandates that you perform your duties without discrimination? And, of course, the churches are exempt from the discretion law.

Jacobsen: It’s so bold how they do it.

Békés: Yeah, of course it is and, in this sense, when it comes to religion, they’re very bold and this is interesting because Hungary is one of the least religious countries in Europe. It’s crazy; most people don’t believe in this and hate it. As I said, it’s indicative of what you read online, but still, I mean, most articles, when it’s about some religious propaganda, are just pushing laugh reactions by the thousands. People are mostly secular; they don’t care about the Church; it’s like oppressive, religious, narrative. There’s no social backing to this, and they’re still pushing. Of course, when it comes to restricting freedom of contraception and bodily autonomy, this plays a role. I mean Christian nationalism plays a role in a way. Of course, the government has this pro-natalist argument that you have to have more children and support families and what not. Of course, the children are not being born more because nobody wants to have multiple children in an economic situation when you don’t earn enough. People are not stupid. It doesn’t matter how many public handouts you do. If you know your wage is so low that you cannot support a family, you won’t have a family at all or maybe just one child. 

So, birth rates are not going up; they have been at it for ten years, and it’s not going up. So, I would say the government politicians often make remarks like very sexist remarks about women or women’s bodies and for example, I think it was a speaker of the House once said that those women who are like in the opposition, he’s not calling them women anymore. Still, he will call them number two because in Hungary, your state ID, if it has a number and if you’re a woman, it starts with a two; if it’s a man, it starts with the one. So, he would call women number twos in the opposition. I could go on as a whole list about this.

Jacobsen: Wow.

Békés: So, contraception is not supported by public insurance. We have the highest value-added tax in Europe: 27%. So, it’s practically the most expensive to have contraception in Hungary, and if you look at the currentpower party, I think it’s even more blatant. I would say they try to restrict Reproductive Rights whenever they can, but they’re not pushing too far with that because, as I said, Hungary is not a very religious country. Even Poland, which banned abortions, knew it was going to be unpopular, and it still is, but they don’t have the fraction of that kind of support in Hungary, that kind of religious jealousy. So, I don’t think they will push for that anytime soon. Eventually, I don’t know, but for now, no. Do they have an agenda to do it? Of course. And that’s why they banned sterilization. So, I’m now in the process of gearing up toward the lawsuit against the government for sterilization. I will sue the government for restricting, well, in this case, my own autonomy because you have to have, of course, a personal case and like I said somebody has to step up. So, I will sue the government for banning sterilization. I will claim it, of course. It’s my body and my choice. If I want to have a sterilization, I can have it. 

Especially with men because with men, it’s reversible, right? With women, it is not reversible, but with men, vasectomies are reversible with about 92% success rate in 15 years. And of course, even if it isn’t, you can still extract sperm surgically. I mean, you can still have children if you want to. So, it’s just to restrict your freedoms. In that sense, I will sue. I’m gearing up. I don’t have the money yet, but it’s going to be a coalition of NGOs. Hungary’s NGOs, our NGOs, are very poor. So, I’m not sure how much money we’ll need. I’m currently in the initial stages of planning this and planning how many work hours I will have to put into this, how much lawyers will cost, the process, legal fees, and whatnot. I think if we can’t have a positive outcome, it might even be in a Hungarian court because proportionately, if abortions are not banned, then this cannot be banned, right?

Jacobsen: Yeah. Do you want to cover any other subject matters in the interview today?

Békés: Well, I mean, I think the secularism, the opposition, and the political parties in Hungary are always very important in how counternarratives are being formed. In Hungary, the biggest problem, I would say, is that even though most people are secular and most people are not religious, we are a very religious country. There’s no agency connected to this. Yes, there is the atheist society. I’m a proud member and secretary of the Hungary Atheist Society, but I wouldn’t say it’s a huge organization. And it doesn’t have to be huge organizations because secularism is something that we should all support and cherish. When you ask people about secularism, they might not know what it means. Still, when you ask if you agree with the separation of church and state in the sense that churches should pay for themselves or if the church should be able to ban Reproductive Rights, they will always say, “No.”

So, people are secular; they don’t realize it. Another problem is that the political parties in Hungary are the so-called opposition. Although it’s questionable how much they are in the opposition, there is still a fact to me that they are completely rolling with this type of agenda, this liberal Christian agenda. So, they’re not criticizing the government on this religious agenda they’re pushing, and a good example was August 20th, was two days ago, and it’s the biggest celebration of Hungary. Now it’s called St Stephen’s Day. Steven the First was the king of Hungary who established the Christian state of Hungary, although the state was already established. It’s a bit of a historical colorization. Still, nonetheless, he was the first king of Hungary, and we have to celebrate a Catholic holiday like it’s St Stephen’s Day. It’s not like the Day of the Constitution, which was in the previous socialist times, and I don’t support that type of regime, but it becomes more inclusive. St. Stephen doesn’t say anything, like I don’t believe in Saints. 

Most Protestants don’t believe in saints. So, why is it Stephen’s Day? Why isn’t it like Stephen the first day or the foundation of the Country Day? obviously, there are alternatives, but most importantly, the opposition, one of the most Progressive opposition parties in Hungary, which is like young people, hip and fairly liberal, posted a statue of St Stephen and said, “God bless you, Hungary.” And that’s how they celebrated like God bless you, Hungary, and no secular terminology. Most recently, as I said, there’s this law where churches can gain any public building, the ownership of any public building and one of the local MPs went to a public hearing about this when there were still kind of like public hearings, and she posted about this, that “Oh, because of the government, are public properties being stolen?” But she was using passive grammar, and she did not at one point indicate that it was the Catholic Church who was stealing public funds because she herself is a devoted Catholic. So basically, she wrote this entire post about how public funds are being stolen, or public property is being stolen without mentioning the Catholic Church. So, I told her, “Didn’t you forget to mention who is doing what?” She said she won’t offend the Catholic Church about this.

The entire party shared this post on the Republic page, which is ridiculous. So, they refuse to acknowledge the role of churches or organized religion in the liberal agenda of the regime, and there is no organized movement from the opposition parties to push back on this. Still, there is an organized movement to cater to religious fundamentalism because this is fundamentalism. In my case, when the so-called liberal opposition mayor was firing me, it’s a prime example of what happened. When this happens, it’s more important to cater to religious fundamentalists who have no public backup, and no church or actual religious groups criticized me when I was being attacked. It was only pure governmental propaganda media, and they folded for that because either they are full of people who support the Christian nationalist agenda or they have this illusion that in Hungary, everybody is supporting this type of fundamentalist religion. One of the campaigns we’re trying to organize in Hungary now is they’re trying to collect money to have a representative survey on secularism because there are so many surveys on how many people are religious. Still, as I said, it doesn’t matter because if you ask how many Catholics there are, there might be a few million in Hungary. Still, it doesn’t matter because if you ask these Catholics who have ever used contraception, probably 99% will say, “Yes.”

So, are they Catholics? It’s not my place to say, but it’s not important. What is important is what they believe about secularism. If it is up to the Catholic Church, contraception will be banned, and that’s a fact. We know that it’s what they say. They say contraception is immoral. Abortions will be banned because this Pope said abortion is murder. So, if you ask people what they think about it, they will give secular answers regardless of their religious affiliation. Sure, there will be some skewing in terms of where you belong, but we want to break the ice and show opposition parties and society that most people are secular. They enjoy fundamental human rights, and many people have for centuries because of the Enlightenment. That is the common denominator, and whatever threatens these rights, they’d be fought against, and the opposition parties must fight against any oppression of our civil rights, even if it comes from the church or established religion or the regime’s cooperation because we cannot change the regime directly. Elections are rigged, and it’s no point going into a parliament to make speeches. That’s why it’s not going to work. However, if the regime resigned today for some weird reason, we still wouldn’t be prepared to make a system more sustainable. As I said, the opposition’s educational reform ideas are vague and not Democratic over students. It wouldn’t create a system that creates more critical thinkers. It’s not even a return to the status quo because the opposition doesn’t care much about education, either.

So, when you read their reports and everything, they wouldn’t even give back, for example, the veto rights of student councils either because they don’t want to or because they don’t know that was a thing. So, we’re not even returning to the status quo, and that’s a problem. So, for us to have a chance at changing this regime to something better, they have to prepare. And one of the areas where preparation is needed is secularism and separating church and state. I know those are the two things, but I want to emphasize that the separation of church and state is a point on the agenda that needs to be developed. Opposition parties must understand that this is a very important part of it and must be made aware. One of these surveys we want to do will help to open their eyes a little bit or at least pressure them with sticks or carrots, whichever works.

Jacobsen:  Gáspár, thank you for the opportunity and your time today.

Békés: Well, thank you. I hope it was consistent and useful.

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