Secular Bonds: Unveiling the Humanist Landscape of Love

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2023/09/18

Gerardo Rivera is an atheist, humanist, and an agronomist. He is a pursuing an MS in Plant Biology. Here he is the first in a series of interview on freethought couples. 

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: I wanted to start a series on humanist couples, secular humanist couples, freethought couples, how ever you want to frame it. People who don’t have a pastor, priest, rabbi, imam, whatever, telling them how to live their lives. They are exploring their own proclivities and desires for intimacy, or not, and how they go about doing that for their life. It is a freethought [Laughing] thing. So, for you, as the first interview, how do you go about intimacy as a freethinking person?

Gerardo Rivera: I’m going to be very honest. I can give a lot of life experience with this. I hope my girlfriend won’t mind. I have always been the person who has been clear, concise, and straightforward in how I am, how I think. I’ve always thought that people should be very conscious about being like that, because, at least in my way of thinking: If my intention is meeting somebody, and if I have full intentions in establishing a working relationship with that person, my opinion is that you should be as clear, straightforward, respectful, and open book. Right? So, when I went about going to know people and the topic of my secularism came up, usually, I was the person who brought it up!

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Rivera: I’d been using dating apps for some time. They don’t work that much in Puerto Rico, I can say.

Jacobsen: [Laughing]. 

Rivera: But I did meet a lot of people through the years in dating apps. I remember very vividly, sending what was an equivalent of a resume. I would describe, “Hey, this is me. Thisd is what I do. These are my hobbies, what I do for work, etc. FYI, I am a secularist, atheist, and a humanist, which describes what I am”. Most of them had never met anybody who is secular. Maybe, on a few occasions, I did meet people who were non-practicing or were Nones. They didn’t have a religion per se. They didn’t have any very elaborate beliefs. They were ambivalent about religion and God, and any deity, or supernatural concept. Those cases. Usually, what would end up happening, people were a little bit surprised, because they weren’t prepared to meet somebody so involved and cleared in non-religiosity. [Laughing] 

I did meet a lot of people who were slightly uncomfortable. I am assuming that because I didn’t get the chance to ask, “Why?”

Jacobsen: [Laughing]. 

Rivera: We didn’t continue talking for obvious reason. I even went out with some religious people. It was interesting. Because, sometimes, those people were the ones I liked the most, because anybody can be decent. But those people who I met were easygoing, decent, and shared a lot of other values that I did share. At the end of the day, it didn’t work for obvious reasons. I guess, a lot of people in my generation might like the idea of not belonging to a religion so fervently, but they also feel, maybe, uncomfortable with people expressing their secularism in such an open way as I did. I would consider myself a strident atheist. 

Jacobsen: [Laughing]. 

Rivera: Yes, maybe, that was part of the problem. I was never afraid of telling a person who I newly met that I was an atheist and a humanist. I never had a problem with that. I can add to that story. I was talking to a girl for some time. She was an Evangelical Christian, actually. It was interesting, actually. The girls who were the most religious were the ones who had this nagging necessity to think that they could work through our differences of me benign an atheist, and them being very coyingly religious. I found that very interesting. But yes, like I said, I ave never been afraid of starting the conversation, “This is who I am, and, p.s., I am not religious”. 

Jacobsen: That’s a common concern. Mandisa Thomas, from another interview, from Black Nonbelievers, noted that the first thing, the first need, people have when they come to her as atheists of colour is, “How do I find a partner?” Intimacy is the question. Intimacy is the issue. I am amused by the online dating apps. I mean, I use them. You use them. They’re great. They’re a lot of fun, for the most part. I am intrigued by the openness and the honesty about the atheism and the Humanism, because that is important. Because, I think, people still, in North America even and, probably, less so in Europe, are uncomfortable with the idea of someone comfortable in their skin without the need for the supernatural. It’s a very odd notion for people. They can’t handle it, easily. 

Rivera: I would include it in my biography and my description in my profile. So, they knew what they were getting into when they started the conversation. For me, at least, being young, there is always the nagging worry that you are doing something wrong, and asre not going to meet somebody, especially me. Because I was brought up in a very tightknit family. I did not have a lot of interactions with people my age. I was raised by my grandparents and my mother. I didn’t get to hang out with young people like myself. I think I always had this worry, “How am I going to interact with people enough so I can eventually meet somebody who I might like?” It worked out in the end. Not having a plan works better than not having a plan. Because, in retrospect, I met my girlfriend in activism. I was doing environment activism in my town. I should mention. She came to me. I didn’t come to her. 

Jacobsen: [Laughing] Gender bender, good stuff!

Rivera: She lives almost on the other side of the island. She came to my side of the town that day. She went to my town, my terf [Laughing]. Young people might worry too much. Not having a plan for some things works better than having one. 

Jacobsen: How do you development that intimacy? From my assumption, not as a relationship expert [Laughing], coming to a relationship with the openness, the honesty, the concision, makes for a healthier start, and a healthier start doesn’t, maybe, prevent the inevitable tensions in a relationship, but it doesn’t give that piece where someone can say, “Well! From the beginning”. The roots are solid. 

Rivera: It is interesting. When I met my current girlfriend, I had no idea. Her whole family is atheist, practically.

Jacobsen: Oh!

Rivera: It is very surprising. I can;t say her whole family. Because she lives with her mother and her grandmother and her grandfather from her mother’s side. At least, I can’t say for her grandmother because she is sick and bedridden. But her grandmother and grandfather are atheist. Which is interesting because those are her family figures who I interact with more, I visit very often, very often. I remember meeting them. The first person who I knew who was an atheist besides her was her mother. I was very shocked. Because I never actually planned getting into a family that was so secular. 

Jacobsen: [Laughing]. 

Rivera: It is interesting because they are secular in a very passive way. They don’t believe in God. You can get them riled up and involved if they needed to, but it is not a focus for them. My girlfriend didn’t even know there was such a thing as secular activism. She learned that from me. If I’m going to get pointed out for this, then it will not be that one, at least [Laughing]. 

Jacobsen: To part of the original question, a lot of religious communities, especially more orthodox or conservative interpretations of faith, have a set hierarchy or a relatively set hierarchy with individuals, often men, who stand in authority to dictate gender norms, A, and, B, how those gender norms result in gender interactions for partnership, marriage, children, and so on. Without that, when it is gone, as a factor, do you notice any other institutions, culturally, that play a part, or is it just a major factor and not an issue (anymore)?

Rivera: I don’t think it is much of an issue at all. At least, consciously, I cannot identify anything that I would think would replace that function. You might be able to argue that I have that ingrained in me to some degree because I wasn’t born into families that were secular. My mother is non-practicing, I guess, Catholic if you can call her that. My father was Jehovah;s Witness. I grew up at some point going to both of their churches or temples. I got to experience both of those religions. But if you ask me, I would say, “I never got brainwashed”. [Laughing] I’ve always being conscious. I’ve been very aware of the fact that I notice it never really stuck into my brain. I never adopted it to an extent that I practiced it. I really don’t. Not even those norms, whatever concepts of what should or should not be done, I got that from my family, strictly from my family. Talking about my family from my mother’s side that were’t very practicing at all, it was social values that my family gave me. I never saw the evidence of them being strictly to any of their religions. 

I’ve never had a problem in my relationship to this date from not having those structures dictated for me. My way of going about it. With my partners, I always try to communicate very clearly beforehand for the relationship, what I am expecting, what are available for me to them, what do I think are healthy tradeoffs, what do I think I have to modify so my partner feels loved, so she can feel I am giving part of me to her, and vice-versa. I have adopted a more healthy, logical way of approaching dating and the relationship. I cannot say that I miss any of the structures from the religion, because I don’t think I ever really had them. 

Jacobsen: So, it is based on individual sentiment and actual intimacy without these factors of “noise” – to use a communication theory term. 

Rivera: But that’s what Humanism has been trying to say from the start: These values, and whatever other values you want to create; they come from humans. They don’t have to rely on any religious constructs. So, yes. 

Jacobsen: Life has a finite span. The idea that we can have these in the first place is really a privilege. We are very lucky to be able to have these feelings, sentiments, and interactions. 

Rivera: I’ll add to that. Life is finite. Relationships can be finite. Not to say that my relationship will be, hopefully it won’t be finite except for the extent of my natural life, relationships can come and go, just like your life. I think we should adopt a constant revision and acceptance of that. We should meditate on what works, what doesn’t work, for one relationship or another, what the new person needs, what you need. This is all a very scientific, open-minded, and humanistic way of approaching relationships. Because, at the end of the day, it’s all a human interaction. That’s Humanism. 

Jacobsen: The positive sentiment and actions that are done, the words. You can attribute them to the person. The bad that is happening. The trouble that you might be having relationally. You don’t have to refer above or make some prayer about things. You can simply see how we can talk through this, work this out, maybe go to couples therapy. There are practical, evidence-based ways to deal with things, or just prevention. Not that we have an issue, but let’s buffer things with an occasional counselling psychologist.

Rivera: Yes! I think the key is it retracts any issue of anybody claiming, “I did this or that”, or giving a religious excuse that can come up. In some fundamentalist religions, there is such a thing as possession. 

Jacobsen: [Laughing]. 

Rivera: It is a very responsible way of living your life. There are no excuses besides you taking responsibility for your interactions. 

Jacobsen: Something on the side, you were mentioning a happy happenstance is interaction with a partner’s family that you are coming into isn’t religious at all. There is a nice conjunction there. It is a nice little fit. It isn’t something that we necessarily think about. It isn’t just you and the person. It is their extended relations. They ren’t necessarily yours, but they are there. You will be interacting with them intermittently if not frequently. It is another factor that we don’t necessarily always take into account. 

Rivera: Definitely, I’m very privileged to perimeter, other relationships that my girlfriend can have with her family, her friends, or her acquaintances, or colleagues. I am very respectful about that. We are both very involved in different things that we like to be involved. Our point of commonality is politics and social justice, and other things related to that. We were very conscious that she studies one thing; I study another thing. She likes some things. I like other things. I think that has helped us. Each individual needs their own space to pursue the things that they want to pursue. It will not subtract from the attention or love that you can give them. Likewise, those relationships that she or I can have with other people are not necessarily secular. Becuase, in our political people, there are a lot of secular people and a lot of religious people. Those religious people are very tolerant and pro separation of church and state.

We are surrounded by a bubble of people that are very palatable. See? I try to get involved in things to help remind me that not everybody has thast privilege. 

Jacobsen: What do you do for fun with her?

Rivera: [Laughing] What I can say, she is very kind. My definition of fun, considering what I study, which is botany: I enjoy a lot of outdoorsy things. So, she likes a lot of outdoorsy things. The problem is that, sometimes, my activities require more physical activities. I can take hours just looking plants and other things. She has to, sometimes [Laughing], have patience with me in those scenarios. We like to go to the theatre, to movies together. She loves to go to see movies. I have never been a huge, huge movie fan. But I don’t like to go to theatres to see whatever movie there is. I only go there to see specific things that I think have potential. I am bending my way of being and trying to be more lenient with that. We go to see a lot of movies together. We, sometimes, just chill at her house. Because I visit, often. She also comes to visit me at my house. Outdoorsy things, I guess. We share a lot of time in our joint political and general activism, also. It’s kind of hard to distinguish between quality time and our responsibilities. Now, that you mention it; I should be more cautious about that. I will try to grow more of those activities that we share. 

Jacobsen: Were there are differences when you were looking for a partner on these apps, in terms of factors of a person and, now, that you are in a relationships? In terms of what you thought that mattered and that do matter in the relationship, are they the same, similar, different?

Rivera: My perception of what relationships were has changed dramatically. I have done a lot of matring over the years. I have been in a relationship for 2 years. I have matured a lot in that time. I have to mature a lot more. It has come to my attention: The older you get, the more you realize that you want to use your time wisely, because you are not getting any younger.

Jacobsen: It’s true. 

Rivera: My goals in life are to find economic stability, so that I can then use the remainder of my time on those things that just make me happy. Having that as a goal, which is something not a lot of people consciously establish in their life, because a lot of people, sadly, are trapped in the day-to-day survival. In my case, I have that so clear now. [Laughing] I have decided that I want to focus on the things that I like. Part of that entails working, too. So, I value much more, now, somebody that can live their own life, have their own space, have their own time to do whatever fulfills her in this case. Likewise, for me, I value my space and time a lot. I think that’s what has changed in my perception. I have this more romantic point of view with relationships. It is not that this is any less romantic. You have to realize that everybody has their own goals in life. You somebody that is capable of giving you their time and can fit their goals and timeline with yours. I think that’s what has changed my perception of what a relationship would be. I used to think relationships were, “I love you so much!” This visceral love; and I have to be with you all of the time. No, I think that’s intense, but immature, from my point of view, type of love. I think love requires a fair bit of practicality, especially with all of the problems that we have in our life and society right now. If you don’t manage to have that practicality, eventually, you are kind of doomed to create problems in your relationship if you are not conscious about it.

Jacobsen: I’ll call that session 1 [Laughing]. 

Rivera: [Laughing]. 

Jacobsen: Thank you very much for the time today.

Rivera: Anything else, just let me know.

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