An Interview with Andrew Copson (3)
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Humanists International Blog (Unsubmitted)
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/10/08
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: And with the expansion of inclusion of the global South, what has been the feedback from those communities with an explicit agenda of that inclusion of them
Andrew Copson: What sort of issues are they pressed for including in there? What changes do they want to see?
Jacobsen: In a sense two things, that one in particular and another one also, what has been their feedback in terms of just an explicit acknowledgement of inclusion?
Copson: Yeah, it’s interesting because there is a dimension of course in which the concerns and interests and views and values of humanists in Guatemala or Bangladesh, or Malaysia, or Nigeria are just the same as the concerns of humans anywhere in Denmark, or Canada, or Australia, or New Zealand trying to say because of the universal nature of what we are committed to. So, 90 percent of it has been nothing new. Sometimes different ways of expressing it, sometimes picking up on implicit biases in an English language, where expressing it, but mostly just what you would expect of any humanists talking Humanism to other humanists in a meeting where we’re talking about what we should say about our own beliefs.
I think the two perspectives that were totally new for me that came in was the extent to which we should consider how far humanistic thought is a tradition within various indigenous communities and cultures around the world. That’s very interesting because, of course, one of our propositions as humanists together is that these values that we have, these beliefs that we have, are the ones that you can come to on your own. They can be a common sense that you can reach them not by having to be taught them, having to have some great leader map it all out for you, but you can come to these conclusions as a result of your own experience in life living in this world in human societies. And a lot of us see the humanistic approach to the basis of our morality, for example, as being a very basically human, not just humanistic but human. And so, to see that demonstrated actually as true in what humanists from different places in the globe has now had to say about the indigenous cultures of their own place and countries of origin was very revealing and interesting, we tried to incorporate that in a new declaration, not in a clunky way, but in a very light touch way at the very beginning by talking about it the way we never had before, by talking about the fact that this is a global patrimony for all of humankind. It was interesting actually because speaking about Steven Pinker a moment ago; he takes a very similar line in his book Rationality which I’ve just finished reading recently.
The important idea that these things are part of the human condition, these values arise out of human condition, that was one thing; and then the second thing I think it was we’re all very concerned about the climate crisis in Western countries. I mean here in the UK; we have Extinction Rebellion and lots of pressure on our governments to do things. We’re all very aware of this and that. But that is as nothing compared to people from low-income countries, for whom it is an existential crisis now or very soon and imminently. And that was something that came across very clearly as well is that there must be an increased presence in the declaration of the humanist basis for action on these issues; not short-term policy solutions like I said at the beginning, but a more explicit mapping out of what we’ve got to offer in terms of the principles and premises from which to address these big global issues. That was another thing that having those voices; global self-voices in the conversation. And so, by including those voices and those organizations, I think they’re the two principal things that came out of it.
Jacobsen: Any updates on our friend Mubarak Bala?
Copson: Mubarak has been in prison now without trial for the offences which is accused for over two years and unfortunately that hasn’t changed. What we do know now is that there are hearing dates for a trial and that should take place within a few weeks. Humanists International has been focusing our efforts on supporting the legal team on the ground in Kano state, but also trying to galvanize foreign nations; their governments through their diplomatic missions in Nigeria and in the north of Nigeria particularly where they have concerts or other presences to push the Nigerian authorities to see justice done, and justice in that sense is for these charges to be dropped. The Nigerian constitution makes it really clear that it’s not acceptable to uphold or reply religious laws. The constitution of Nigeria is not observed in the part of the country where Mubarak has been taken to and held as I say without trial in prison for so long.
And so, we’re calling on our member organizations to press their government to urge the Nigerian government to do the right thing and release him immediately and possibly that that will happen. When you’re dealing with cases of humanistic risk in whatever country, sometimes you get very pleasant surprises. We had a case in Pakistan about 20 years ago and just one day he was just released and we got him out of the country. It was all not fine because he suffered a lot actually in prison during the time that he’d been detained, again on blasphemy. And so, we haven’t had all that to deal with but sometimes you are taken by surprise and what seems like a long intractable dark problem is as a result of the efforts of humanists around the world as well as on the ground brought to a happy conclusion. So, let’s hope that in a few weeks time that is what will happen.
Jacobsen: Another final question following from the question of Mubarak. His case is representative of a number of cases without similar notoriety; do you have any words on those kinds of themes as well around the world?
Copson: Well, yeah, I mean all around the world humanists are sticking their heads above the parapet you know, they’re coming out on social media, they’re forming organizations; and that’s a great thing. We work to support that, we want to see more of it. This is the way that societies change and people can gain recognition and dignity for their identities and their beliefs and so we want to support that. But the disappointing fact about it is that when people do it they’re shot down, they’re persecuted, literally shot down I mean. They lay themselves open immediately to both official sanctions against them, but also communal violence against them that is allowed to proceed with impunity without the state or any civil authorities trying to limit it. And we’re seeing that more and more and more around the world now. On one hand, of course, this is encouraging because it shows that people are increasingly confident in their humanist values; they want to stand up, they want to speak out, and they want to get together with others who share their views. On the other hand, it’s leading to unprecedented persecution and attacks on people who are doing that. I think that our role in all of that is to give people the resources that they need to continue to speak their minds, speak their values, to organize with others, and to give the support they need to do that; the support and the resources and the solidarity but also to continue to work with governments that hold these values themselves or are willing to project them abroad to encourage other governments to allow people that space. That’s Humanist International’s response both strategically and in practice to this growing theme but you’re right to identify as a wider theme than just Mubarak Bala. I think it’s probably the humanist struggle of the age really.
Jacobsen: Andrew, as always thank you very much for your time and see you in Glasgow [Ed. Work conflict prevented attendance.]
Copson: See you there.
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