Adewale Sobowale on Migration

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Medium (Personal)

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2024/01/30

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Could you please introduce yourself?

Adewale Sobowale: I am Adewale Sobowale.

Jacobsen: What do you do?

Sobowale: Well, I have had many jobs in my lifetime, but now I am a writer. I have some books on Amazon and so on. I am actually working on two now. I publish The Migrant Online.

Jacobsen: What is The Migrant Online?

Sobowale: Well, that is a great question. Basically, we have two sets of migrants, and one is a subsect of the other. In the first instance, all of us are migrants in this world because we do not have any reason to believe that we cannot die. We are just here for a brief moment. The other one comprises those that go from one country to the other. Especially those people classified as irregular migrants. They may be victims of war, flood, drought, unrest, etc. Moreover, in most cases, they will go to other countries with just the clothes on their back, not even carrying any bag or food or whatever. Does that answer your question?

Jacobsen: It does. Moreover, what are the contexts for these individuals coming to another country with just the clothes on their backs? What is likely to happen to them? What are some scenarios?

Sobowale: Countries differ in the treatment of migrants; I mean irregular migrants like Canada. Once you can enter Canada and declare your asylum, the immigration guys will receive your application, and so on. Then they start processing it, and if your asylum case is genuine, you are in. Even before then, you would have received the brown paper, which allows you to work. However, in some other countries, such as Italy, the UK, and so on, they are more or less ethical about their migrants. I have noticed that it is when the conservatives are in power that migrants have a problem. I do not know if you know that.

Jacobsen: No, I have noticed that as well. Yes, I know when a conservative government is in power, typically, they want to have clearly defined boundaries and all sorts of things, one of which is territorial, national boundaries that have problems for individuals looking for a better life.

Sobowale: But you see, one thing is that whatever we do, we should look at the human rights factor. Now, some countries push migrants back into the sea. Even apart from human rights, it’s unthinkable. I mean, if someone comes into your country for whatever circumstance, I would have thought the best thing would have been to arrest him and take him to court instead of pushing him back into the waters. I mean, that affects his right to life.

Jacobsen: Yes. How many migrants have drowned due to these circumstances of being pushed back out?

Sobowale: I would not know.

Jacobsen: These stories have come up on and off for several years.

Sobowale: Of course. Yes, of course it does. I think in Greece, I do not know of now, but some time ago, it was accused of pushing migrants back to see to sea and so on. Moreover, some of the other countries are not receptive as far as migrants are concerned. I think Poland, too. I was watching something maybe two days ago where the president was saying he would not take Muslims and so on. Sorrow, whenever it comes, does not have a religious tendency; it just does not have a racial tendency.

Jacobsen: The only flavour there is xenophobia or wanting to keep boundaries solid, and that has life or death consequences for individuals often fleeing war circumstances. So, when it comes to individuals who are coming out of, say, because the examples you gave were Poland and the United Kingdom and in Canada, war circumstances or looking for a better life, how long is that process of going from home country to new country?

Sobowale: You see one thing: The first thing you experience is culture shock. How you have been doing things in your country might be different from how they are doing in their own country. Then, the fact that you hardly have anything. So, possibly your family is at home or maybe your government is hunting you, so you see, the thing is, it is not that easy. It is not that easy, and I keep on saying that. I think Canada and Ireland, too, are trying because they fight for the rights of migrants, keep them in accommodation, and all those things. I thank them for that. I mean compared to some other countries.

Jacobsen: How about internal to some of these countries? So, instead of going from a country like Ghana or Nigeria to Canada or the United Kingdom or Ireland or Greece, you are going from an African state to another African State; how is my migration issue sort of intra-continental?

Sobowale: Okay. The case of Ghana and Nigeria. In the 70s, we had this Ghana must go to Nigeria, and these Ghanaians were supposed to leave Nigeria.

Jacobsen: Were they supposed to leave Nigeria?

Sobowale: Actually, they were driven out of Nigeria.

Jacobsen: Under what pretext?

Sobowale: Well, maybe for economic reasons, but I do not quite remember now. Sometime later, Ghana, too, drove out Nigerians. In South Africa, there used to be, I do not know of now. A lot of xenophobia and all those things, even people being bombed, their businesses being taken and all those things.

Jacobsen: Yeah. I mean this whole thing about just being mixed race, being “coloured,” and becomes another issue where that…

Sobowale: By the way, Nigeria participated in South Africa’s fight against apartheid. The states fighting against apartheid were five. Nigeria was now made the sixth member because of its participation, finances, and so on. Well, I would not say Nigerians, too, were not our fault because I gather that when these guys go there and make money, and so on, they will just be living kind of firstly fine, but then the rule of law should have taken its course.

Jacobsen: So, in the context of getting driven out, and you may not necessarily know why, what are common reasons people get driven out, like in a context where you know it’s an African state, and you have a neighbouring country?

Sobowale: You see, I believe that the African countries or even most countries want to do what their citizens want. In the case of the United Kingdom and so on, they believe foreigners are taking their jobs, foreigners are taking their resources, or they’re being housed in those hotels, and so on. But if you ask me if irregular migrants are coming and they are given a work permit to work, they’ll be buying products, they’ll be paying taxes, they rent houses, and the economy will be better for it, but then when they come in, you get them arrested. By the way, migrant smugglers are another factor. The migrant smugglers are another factor. In the UK, they smuggle them across the English Channel in boats from France. And those boats are not the best, and in many cases, the boats will be overcrowded, but the truth is, is there any route for irregular migrants to go to Britain?

Jacobsen: Not really, other than through the sea or through the formal processing system, which takes a long time, as far as I know. Getting that work permit and getting residency takes years.

Sobowale: Of course, it does, but then the fact is that, for instance, as I said, if you’re a victim of war, a victim of flooding, a victim of a drought, or whatever, and you might not even have your passport. Now, should you be driven back to your home country?

Jacobsen: I mean, they’re sort of in the same situation as, like, the Rohingya from Myanmar. I mean, they are stateless. So, you have a situation where you’re driven out of a state; the state doesn’t want you. It’s hard for anyone to even sort of accept you, and so you’re a Persona non grata for the world; you have no place, and I feel like for a lot of people who are in those war-torn circumstances, and we’re seeing this in current wars, individuals being sort of forced potentially into other countries where the countries on the receiving end don’t either have the capacity or the want of those individuals and the individuals don’t have much of a home to go back to.

Sobowale: And in any case, see this Ukrainian-Russian war, the recent Hamas-Israel war, the war in Sudan; they are not making things easier. I just want to feel for the receiving states; for instance, as you can see, there’s inflation in the world now. It might even lead to inflation if care is not taken just because the grains and oil from Ukraine and Russia are not coming. Now, in the case of Nigeria, you will see so many farmlands that should have been continuously farmed have been deserted because of kidnappers. In our last conversation, I asked you if you think World War III is happening, and my question is symbolic. Symbolic in the sense that if there is hunger in people’s stomachs, there is war.

Jacobsen: Yeah.

Sobowale: If people cannot find houses to live in… okay. You are busy destroying houses, and some people lack houses. Does that make sense?

Jacobsen: Yeah, the basic needs aren’t met: food, water, and shelter. People will strike at you for those limited resources. Scarcity breeds war.

Sobowale: That is why I said World War III has more or less started. It might be a multi-physical work. I think you have verses in the Bible. The Bible says that nations will be against nations. What’s happening now?

Jacobsen: Well, it’s happened forever, since Babylon. Yet, I think the one that’s not getting as much attention as it probably should is Taiwan. That’s a very risky situation where you can see flare-ups between the United States and China potentially becoming terrible.

Sobowale: That one has been there for long, right?

Jacobsen: Yes. I mean, since the United States is stretched out on multiple fronts now, and I believe China might have the most personnel of any army now, it could be a third configuration because China wants Taiwan back. It could happen; it’s not out of the question. It’s just not a wise thing to do in the current moment.

Sobowale: What about the Philippines?

Jacobsen: The Philippines; I think the United States would protect the Philippines more than Taiwan.

Sobowale: I mean, they have a rulership of terror there.

Jacobsen: Yeah, they do.

Sobowale: I mean, they just go there and kill people. People don’t have freedom of speech in Europe.

Jacobsen: True. No country has full freedom of expression. The United States probably has more than anyone, but it also has a culture that pushes back on people.

Sobowale: For instance, when I was in Nigeria, I used to speak about current affairs, but then I didn’t have as much freedom as I have now. Nigeria is not a Banana Republic, and freedom of the press is somewhat allowed. I can remember what I said or was quoted to have said that you have your freedom of speech, but whatever happens after…

Jacobsen: There’s a lot of talk about cancel culture. It’s real in some sense and unreal in another. It’s real in the sense that people do have consequences for spoken acts. It’s unreal in another sense of permanence. Most people I see “cancelled” aren’t permanent, so they tend to come back. However, for the former part, they have consequences; sometimes major, sometimes minor. So, that makes it more of a public penalty culture rather than a cancel culture. That’s not new, though; there have always been penalties of varying stripes for individuals who use their freedom of expression on taboo and verboten areas of cultural context. I mean, that’s why we have individuals like Lindsay Shepard, who is some more conservative journalist who gets intimidated by people, and that’s why we have people who are more liberal journalists like Amber Bracken, who also get intimidated by other people. So, cancel “culture” or public penalty culture isn’t a culture oriented around left or right or socio-economics in as much as it’s around a tactic. It’s a tactic being used by different stripes of people. So, it doesn’t have affiliation outside of utility.

Sobowale: I spoke about pseudo-democracies. Now, there are some countries that claim to have democracies, but then, if you look beyond the view, you see that democracy is not being practiced. In Nigeria, how can you say you practice democracy when the people are hungry? Now, what normally happens in the case of Nigeria is that in countries like this, people belong to political parties. They have their membership cards and pay to finance the political party. Agreed?

Jacobsen: Yes, they can be under the board with bribes and over the board with party contributions.

Sobowale: What happens in Nigeria is that a rich person, they call them Godfathers and so on, will come from nowhere, maybe having stolen money from wherever and will not go and finance a candidate, pick a candidate that rules them. The candidate now “empowers” the people by buying generators or sewing machines and all those things, even giving them food.

Jacobsen: Do you remember Professor Kim Holder when we did the Economics class for the conference? She noted that the one politician in her state, one step back, had no raise in her salary in 10–15 years. Yet there’s been inflation in goods and services in her state and the country. Interesting point. Around the time of re-election, the politician suddenly started handing out all this cash to individuals in public service, teachers and professors included. It’s a similar…

Sobowale: Very similar, and that’s why I called some of those claiming they are practicing democracy, pseudo democracies.

Jacobsen: Some parts of the United States are like the third world. There are parts of Canada, often reserve land areas, and Attawapiskat may have the highest suicide rate of any area within what would be called Canada. That’s very common. So, I guess in the Nigerian example, it’s generators and food; it’s objects.

Sobowale: What I just deduct from it is the Nigerian elites are starving the people. When I say starving, I mean food, education, electricity, and so on.

Jacobsen: I’m collaborating with someone in Zimbabwe.

Sobowale: They do that to keep the people in check. When a rich man comes and picks a candidate, the candidate will not be like a liberator. Mind you, whatever they get, let’s say you get 10,000 Naira or 20,000 Naira, 10,000 NAira may not even be up to $100, and that’s for four years. So, you see, I tend to blame the people because as long as we, the people, refuse to change our orientation and we continue colluding with the elite, then we will still be making the same mistake over and over again. Can you imagine that Nigeria has crude oil, but then the refineries in Nigeria are not working? So, it exports crude oil. Even Canada is one of the countries refining Nigeria’s crude oil.

Jacobsen: Interesting!

Sobowale: You now import it back. Does it make sense?

Jacobsen: No, well, I mean, the big point you made there was about education. You mentioned education, which is key, especially long-term development.

Sobowale: But one thing is that you see, in Nigeria, we used to say that, I mean, some people went to school, but the school never went through them.

Jacobsen: [Laughs].

Sobowale: Yes, the thing is that if you’ve gone to school if you’ve received the right type of education, you should be liberated, but all these people would still be supporting corrupt politicians under the guise that they are waiting for their time. Their time to do what? Their time to embezzle. We know of some people who have ruled in Nigeria who lived in their houses, rode their cars, and so on, but they did a lot. One of them is late now, but those people were not good examples for these so-called educated people. The good examples for them are those who embezzle the commonwealth. So, you see, it’s so bad to the extent that people will steal public money even for their grandchildren.

Jacobsen: So, you have intergenerational corruption and crime here.

Sobowale: Oh, sure.

Jacobsen: I mean, one major internal issue in some of these countries is the level of corruption because, as they noted in that conference, more corruption means less “economic development.”

Sobowale: Of course.

Jacobsen: And you have an exacerbation of people not meeting their basic needs and this sort of negative feedback loop for tens of millions of people.

Sobowale: I think the Western world is a bit better. For instance, take the ongoing case of Trump. He had his way. I said he should have been arrested on January 11 when he left power. He should have been arrested and treated like a common criminal, but the state took its time in accumulating evidence in the so-called developing countries; I say so-called because we know that they are underdeveloped.

Jacobsen: In the last decade or so, there’s been a trick play on language to basically change the concept by changing the name. It doesn’t change the actuality on the ground; people still need to get food and education.

Sobowale: That’s what I’m saying. If you say a country is developing, what is it developing? Is it developing corruption?

Jacobsen: Here’s my last question for the session. You have one minute. What do you mean by “ underdeveloped “ and “ developing, “ and how does this relate to migration?

Sobowale: Oh, good! When you look at it, people from underdeveloped countries rush into the world of migration. For instance, in the case of Nigeria, even people who are well-to-do and have regular jobs 9 to 5 are actually selling their property and fleeing the country. In Mexico’s case, see how everybody rushes to the US. So, you can go on and on.

Jacobsen: All right, thank you for your time.

Sobowale: Thank you for having me.

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